open thread – December 9-10, 2016

by Alison Green on December 9, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. ThatGirl*

    FLSA update: It’s so frustrating. My husband’s job let nearly a week go into December before on Tuesday they called him into a meeting to tell him that no, in fact, he’s not getting the $3200/year raise he was promised (or the two months off), because not only is the FLSA change on hold but they don’t expect it to go through at all. And I should add that he and all his co-workers had been subjected to paycuts this past year, so that wasn’t even a “real” raise, it would’ve just taken him back to just above where he was before. Argh.

      1. ThatGirl*

        In order to not pay him the full minimum nonexempt salary, he was going to be converted to a 10-month position (he’s staff at a university). So it was a smaller raise and two months “unpaid” instead of a bigger raise. Not the ideal maybe but he was on board with it.

        1. BAS*

          That actually wasn’t legal under the FLSA rules. There was no provision for pro-rating people who were less than full time.

          1. ThatGirl*

            You’re misunderstanding. The guidelines state a minimum weekly pay, and he would’ve been paid that. But it would’ve been for 46 weeks a year instead of 52, and he would’ve had 8 weeks totally off. It’s common in academic positions. Still full time, just not full-year.

          2. HRChick*

            You can’t pro-rate hours, but as long as someone is making the weekly minimum, they’re good. So, you can pro-rate the year.

    3. A European*

      I don’t think ours are all that anonymous – by the time you’ve broken down to gender, seniority and location you don’t need to be Miss Marple to know at least broadly who said what. So I keep that in mind. I do fill them out, however, because if you’re unhappy about certain things and get an opportunity to input about them you can either do that or stop complaining. Incidentally, our surveys are global and the Europeans normally come out on top in terms of being the last satisfied, whereas our American and Asian colleagues are normally more chirpy.

  2. 42*

    I’d like to take an informal poll. I have read the comments about anonymous employee surveys in the AAM archives, it was very informative. I currently have one sitting on my inbox, I haven’t filled it out yet.

    Our survey is handled by an outside company that ensures anonymity. So as an informal poll, do you complete employee surveys?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Yes. Ours is administered internally (we operate a survey research service so although it’s best practice to use an outside company we just couldn’t make it make sense financially), so I was aware that distant coworkers might see it and was slightly circumspect, but mostly open.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I do, but our owners and upper management work hard to keep employees happy, so I have no reason to believe they’d violate anonymity, and if they did I wouldn’t worry about retaliation.

      It really depends on the environment, whether there’s any trust there. Although using an outside company should provide some protection, I would probably google the company name first if I had reason to worry.

      1. 42*

        Agreed. For the record I love my job and my company, they’re been nothing but wonderful to me in the years I’ve been there. I don’t know why I’m stalling on filling it out.

      2. Ama*

        Yeah, I would (and have) at my current company because I trust them (although here they have mostly been from outside vendors about how we use software or insurance benefits).

        However, at a previous employer information from a survey was once used by an executive VP to lecture everyone via mass email on not leaving work early (it was a survey about a potential bike share program and one of the questions asked you to estimate potential hours you “might” use the bikes — I’m pretty sure people gave generous estimates just in case they needed to come in late/leave early, not because people were doing so regularly). After that incident, I stopped doing any surveys for that employer because I didn’t trust them to use the information they were collecting for the purpose they said they would use it for.

    3. Ann Furthermore*

      I always did at my last job, and I was brutally honest in my comments. Now, I really didn’t care if anyone figured out who I was or not. But I did that 3 years in a row, and there was no blowback onto me personally for my comments. This was a large company (about 3000 employees), so it really would have taken some effort to track down which comments came from which person.

      1. The Rat-Catcher*

        Same. I am just sending out my first one via SurveyMonkey. I don’t know how it works exactly yet but I am thinking and hoping that they truly will be anonymous.

    5. Blue Anne*

      I do, personally, but I’ve only had surveys when I worked at enormous companies where individual were very unlikely to be identifiable. (Or where people were very unlikely to CARE about identifying individuals.)

    6. NW Mossy*

      I do, and in fact I’m presenting to my team later today about the results of ours. All of them participated, and I really appreciate that. Surveys are often more for the benefit of management than they are for individual employees, and it’s a big help to me when my team participates and gives me feedback I can use to be a better manager to them in the future. It’s really hard for most people to give face-to-face feedback to their boss because of the power dynamics, so this is sometimes the only way I hear about issues that are on peoples’ minds.

    9. NK*

      I do. My company is huge, and I trust that it’s anonymous. And frankly, I’d tell the CEO himself about my chief complaint lately if he asked me (surrounding the ridiculous confusion about how to take maternity leave/FMLA when it should be a clear process with documented procedures).

      1. SouthernLadybug*

        I’ve just gone through a round of conflicting info from HR myself. It shouldn’t be this hard. It’s not like it’s that unique of an occurrence!

    10. AndersonDarling*

      I answer them, but if there are identifying questions such as how long you worked there, your gender, age… I put “choose not to answer.” We’ve had executives run around trying to find out who said what and I don’t want to give them any clues. Not that I say anything terrible, but you never know who will be offended.

    12. DoDah*

      No–because I know they are not anonymous. Last year our VP (who got the lowest score in the organization) called out one of the staff (in a dept meeting) about a comment he made. He said, “Staff-member am I doing better about not calling you, texting you or emailing you on nights/weekends/holidays and expecting a response.”

      The Staff-member said that he was. But trust me he was not.

      1. Cambridge Comma*

        Our anonymous surveys are also not anonymous; a colleague whom I trust told me that they are saved to your personnel file each year.

      4. Juli G.*

        Look, sometimes you read the comments and you know who wrote it. But you NEVER call them out on it. Come on!

        1. DoDah*

          But–wait it gets better. That instance of Evil VP calling out staff member happened 2 years ago. Since then, all departments in the organization are now surveyed yearly EXCEPT those that report to Evil VP.

    13. Susan*

      I do. I’m not 100% convinced about the anonymity, but I’m not particularly afraid of being identified because anything negative I say is likely to be something that other people have already openly complained about. Of course, the surveys never lead to any changes, anyway.

    14. Lore*

      Ours is multiple-choice only, no individual comments, and they make a *big* deal about 100 percent participation. Like, in my division we hit 100% on the Monday of Thanksgiving week and the division head walked around personally thanking everyone and then gave us the Wednesday before Thanksgiving off, paid, and another “free” personal day to take in December. They also anonymize to the extent that if your supervisor has three to five direct reports, all of them have to give permission for their feedback about said supervisor to be reported to her, and if your supervisor has fewer than three direct reports, that feedback only goes to the survey review committee, not the supervisor. (If she has five or more, they consider that sufficiently anonymized that there won’t be blowback, especially since there’s no room for actual individual commentary.) The survey also seems to get shorter every time they do it, so that makes it easier though possibly less useful.

    16. Sherm*

      I do. I trust my company, and all the questions are of the “From 1-10, how do you rate…” variety, so there’s no chance I could leave a comment that would be attributed to me. I’m also sympathetic that they need a high participation rate for the survey to be meaningful. If not many people fill it out, it’s hard to tell whether those responders are reflective of the company as a whole. (Maybe they are the ones who are most dissatisfied and wanted to give a piece of their minds. Or maybe the ones who are most dissatisfied were more reluctant to fill out the survey.)

    17. Sophie Winston*

      I do. I respond with complete honestly to the numerical parts. I only provide free form comments I would be comfortable saying directly to my boss.

      My company responds to some items but not others. I think they are doing the best they can with the resources they have.

    18. Jubilance*

      Yes. My current company is really big, and they use an outside vendor. We get the results back relatively quickly and leaders work with their teams to improve. In my 4 years here, big changes have happened at my company that were directly from feedback from the survey – relaxed dress code, parental leave for both men & women, moving to 3wks vacation time as the minimum, more flexible work arrangements, etc.

    21. Augusta Sugarbean*

      Yes and I’m always completely honest but I’m union and not worried about getting fired or blowback. We also have very weak management and they can barely manage to fire someone for something totally egregious so they’d never do anything about someone stating in writing the problems they know exist. In a different workplace, I’d be honest but probably pick my battles and be more careful in how I described things.

    22. NJ Anon*

      Yes, but with the expectation that they will not really be anonymous. None of the ones I have ever taken were “kept” anonymous. However, they were in-house, not by a third-party.

    23. Ella*

      Yes. This is how our company gets feedback on climate, so I think it’s really valuable to be able to share my perspective.

    24. SaaSyPaaS*

      It depends on how busy I am, and what the survey is about. I did not bother with the last one they sent out because there were too many essay type answers for ridiculous questions, and you couldn’t just skip some of the questions. Answers to each were mandatory before you could submit the survey, so I passed on that one.

    25. Sibley*

      I do, except for one which they way it was designed really didn’t make sense for the way I work. I try to be open and honest as well.

    26. ITChick*

      I do and I’m usually very honest and blunt in my comments. Our hospital uses an outside company to maintain anonymity, and they also explicitly state that if the results or feedback for a question or comment is less than a certain number they will not report any demographic information for it. The demographics are things like job category (RN, CNA, Lab Tech, etc.), years of service, age group, and gender. In my smaller department no demographic information is reported because you could easily figure out what responses went with which person.

    27. Soupspoon McGee*

      I used to, the first few years I worked at my last employer, a college. But I saw how management responded to surveys–they took criticism personally but never addressed it. My second year there, in a large meeting, one of my colleagues said publicly that he didn’t feel the surveys were truly anonymous, so he wasn’t inclined to give truthful answers; the president respond with a very hurt, “But that sounds like you don’t trust us!” This colleague was not treated well after that.

      The last survey I completed had identifying information (gender, years at the college, classification–so faculty, staff, admin, etc.). There wasn’t an option not to provide those details, so I said I was faculty (I’m not). In admin meetings, management grumbled about the disgruntled faculty and dismissed any criticism.

    28. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      We were sent an employee survey to complete this year, but the results were meant to be shared with supervisors. I wouldn’t complete an anonymous survey unless I could verify that it was handled by someone outside the company.

    30. Beautiful Loser*

      Never. I don’t care how anonymous they claim it is. I have witnessed retaliation at several different employers due to these “anonymous” surveys

    32. SMT*

      OldJob did this, too. They did a good job of explaining how anonymous it is, and they talk a lot about the changes that they make in response to the survey.

    33. H.C.*

      I take them, it’s fairly anonymous (conducted by outside vendor, you can only see team scores/breakdowns if you have 4+ direct reports, otherwise it gets “rolled up” to your supervisor) – but unfortunately, follow-up actions addressing low scores in X & Y readily forgotten shortly after.

    34. DevManager*

      I do. We use an outside company that does warn us not to put anything too identifying in it as managers of teams over 6 people will see the full comments.

      I’ve also been the person compiling the results of surveys to determine what action items should be suggested to management to make employees happier. For some teams, because of their demographics, it was really easy to figure out who made the comments, so it’s something to be aware of. (I took the confidentiality seriously. Just because I knew that Wakeen was the only 20-29 year old male reporting to Julianne, it doesn’t mean that I told her that he was the one with x issue.)

    35. Wendy Darling*

      I do ones that are company-wide. Especially at my last employer, which had tens of thousands of employees. Even though it was administered internally, the company was so big I was comfortable that I would be anonymous.

      On the other hand the job I just quit my current job and they asked me to do an “anonymous” exit survey. This company has a few hundred employees worldwide, less than 100 in my country, and I am the only one who quit this week. So I did not do that because even though my name isn’t on it everyone knows.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        We do company-wide ones as well, and I fill those out honestly because we have 5k+ employees so no is going to go tracking down exactly who said what. My division also does there own year-end survey, and at first, I thought I wouldn’t take it because even though we’ve grown in size, it’s still pretty easy to tell who said what. However, after their last survey (which I didn’t get to take because I didn’t work there yet), I’ve seen how our SVP has been trying hard to address the things that are in his control, so I may take it after all since I now know action will be taken if it’s within his authority to do so.

    36. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve always worked in small orgs, so any employee survey I fill out I never leave detailed feedback, because it can almost certainly be traced back to me. Unfortunately, I’ve found the administrators and managers who are the most open to honest feedback are usually the ones who don’t need much criticism, and the ones who need the most honest and detailed feedback are the ones most likely to retaliate.

    37. Annie Moose*

      Yes. The only one I didn’t was because my company had just been bought by a larger company, and the questions were simply not applicable to me. (can’t comment on Program X, because I’m not familiar with it… can’t comment on the difference between last year’s whatever and this year’s, because I’ve only been a part of this company for two months… etc.)

    38. SophieChotek*

      Yes I take them.

      I think I have commented before that even though an outside company administers our surveys, the results/comments are broken down by individual store, so our manager (we have a staff of less than 20) could still figure out who was writing what/about who –and honestly, even tried to figure it out (by asking me).

      I took them less for my manager (despite the annoying habit she had of trying to figure out how wrote what) because she was a good manager, and more because I wanted corporate to see there were issue they needed to address that were beyond my manager’s control. (i.e. they would not give her a budget to keep our equipment in working order. One of the question was something like “Do you have the tools to do your job?” me: “No.”)

    39. Girasol*

      Our company had issues at the top that were often pointed out in surveys. HR ordered our direct manager to take immediate steps to solve these problems, which he could not since these matters were not in his hands. It left him upset that not only did he bear the brunt of the tops-down problems but that the interpretation of the survey showed that we blamed him for them. So I filled out the survey so that HR saw his team cooperating, and I kept the response blandly positive.

      Besides, if hundreds of people are surveyed, all the carefully crafted comments tend to overwhelm the action team and cancel each other out. Those tasked with winnowing out the three top issues from those comments and the check marks on ambiguous questions end up with such sweeping generalities that, with all the best intentions, they change the brand of coffee and call the job done.

    40. Purest Green*

      I did them for four years until this year when I finally realized nothing is being done with the information.

    41. Seal*

      I do and at times am brutally honest with my feedback. Based on conversations I’ve had with coworkers, I know there are others who have the same concerns I do. I operate under the assumption that at least a few other people will also provide brutally honest feedback about the same issues. My sense is that the administration is more likely to act if they see a pattern of complaints rather than if they come from one person.

    42. James*

      Only about things I care about. I work in a huge company, and there are a lot of things that simply don’t affect me, and which I don’t feel informed enough to comment on. I’ve closed out of online surveys before when it became obvious that they were talking about things that don’t have much if any impact on my job.

      Frankly, I consider most of them to be fairly useless. In a company big enough to need an anonymous survey you’re going to have significant problems disentangling signal from noise, and are often going to regress to the mean whether that’s a good solution or not. And most of them I’ve taken have been so poorly-worded and have made the “right” answers so obvious that they were completely worthless regardless of any other issue. Not that I think this was intentional–it’s just that drafting surveys is hard and most people fail horribly at it.

    43. AngtheSA*

      We don’t have one at my company but they do at my husbands. He took it and it lets you give comments about what you want most to change. He said their benefits and pay were not the best especially for the support/admin people and sales. He is privy to people salary information so he does see the discrepancy. They say that they are open to feedback so we will see.

    44. One Handed Typist*

      We are required to have an annual survey to our program participants. I administer it and take steps to ensure it is anonymous – but we are required to have 100% completion by program participants. They log in to complete the survey but I do not know which answers are theirs, only that it was completed.

      However, it’s pretty easy to look at some answers and know exactly who said it because of the nature of the complaints.

    45. Nancy B*

      I do, because I’ve seen how our management really does use the information in those survey’s to make positive changes to our workplace.

    46. Caroline*

      I recently filled out one. It was about job satisfaction. Maybe it is really anonymous, maybe not. I was perfectly honest. I also brought up some pretty controversial things, but I did it diplomatically. I didn’t write anything I wouldn’t be willing to stand by if called out, but I appreciate the anonymous nature to take the awkwardness out of initially bringing up problems.

    47. Juli G.*

      I do. But because of my role and the nature of my comments, I might as well have just signed my name this year anyway. But I have pretty decent faith that they’ll act appropriately anyway (or they’ll say “Eh, she moved departments since the survey. She’s someone else’s problem now.)

    48. ughhhhhhh*

      We had a fun experience this year. In a company of 20k++, we were told our surveys were anonymous. Then afterwards, found out that senior managers and above were getting the results of their teams surveys so they could discuss the results, talk through the pain points, and make improvements.

      I’m on a team of 6, and my role is semi-unique to my dept, so it’s fun that my manager (who is my BIGGEST PROBLEM at work) got an “anonymized” version of my complaints, ABOUT HIM, which by nature are not even remotely anonymous since no one on my team could have the same concerns. Cool.

      1. ughhhhhhh*

        upon reading through the comments that were posted while i was typing… i see it’s pretty common for supervisors to get results of surveys. i find that interesting, because it’s never been done before for us. (or they were given at a director level or VP level where there are like 100 employees in the group… never handed over to a manger of a team of 6 who is notorious for taking things out on you if he thinks you’re a complainer or a whiner.) i never would’ve participated honestly if it was sold to us as “anonymous in that your name won’t be on it, but it will be given to your boss to read.”

      2. Zoe*

        As someone who works in media/PR, my rule of thumb is to assume NOTHING you put in writing (emails, texts, IMs, your diary, AFM comments, etc) in either your personal life or work life is ever anonymous, or private. Is this paranoid? Yes. Has it saved me a few times? Yes.

        Still, shame on your company for not communicating to employees that they would share survey results with supervisors. That’s just going to demoralize employees and ensure they never take it seriously in the future.

    49. Clever Name*

      I do. I work for a small company, and I know for a fact that the owner takes the results into account when enacting new or changing policies or procedures. I keep in mind that “anonymous” surveys may not be entirely anonymous. Many surveys keep each respondent’s answers together in addition to aggregating the responses, so in theory someone could figure out who said what based on writing style, position in the company, etc.

    50. The Strand*

      The last one I took was for a national organization that ranks and analyzes other organizations like the one I work for. I received a “personalized” link but was told I’d have anonymity. I answered honestly, but also from a more anonymous wifi location) (e.g. Starbucks) rather than onsite.

    52. Kinsley M.*

      As an HR rep who actually has a hand in putting these together, I say take it. We also use a third party vendor. All I do is give the vendor current email addresses for our staff. We never see the individual answers. We only see the aggregate report given to us by the vendor.

      For my company, employee surveys are so important. Selfishly, I beseech you to take the survey and, most importantly, be honest. It’s always frustrating when we know that there are problems in locations (yet don’t have any definitive proof/no one will come forward), but when surveys come back everyone said everything was great. It’s really hard to get operations to act when ‘well the employees said in their anonymous survey that everything is great and management is awesome.’

    53. Charlotte Collins*

      I do. But I can be a bit cagey about some things, since some of the surveys (such as about management) could easily lead back to me or the one other person in my department. So, certain surveys are completed more honestly than others. (When you are one of two people in a department and one of two people with a particular job title, then you sometimes have to make sure anonymity is truly anonymous.)

    54. k*

      I do! Ours are done online, through sites like Survey Monkey so they’re anonymous. The results of them are taken seriously, and with our company’s culture I would find it hard to imagine anyone being punished for negative feedback if it were linked to them. I’ve actually seen some positive changes that have come about due to issues that were raised through the survey.

    55. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I do. Our annual survey is also handled by an outside agency, and my union leadership (who are all peers) emphasize the importance of filling it out and the anonymity of the process. I trust them, so I fill it out.

    57. Chaordic One*

      I did at first. One survey that showed widespread unhappiness about low pay (below market rates) did get some management attention (and a lot of lame excuses). Then came the survey about racism in the workplace and management attempted to “whitewash” the results.

      After that there two more surveys that were attempts to get onto a list of “best places to work” but I ignored them. One year there were supposedly not enough surveys turned in to qualify. The next year the company claimed to have been selected, but when I thoroughly looked at the actual business magazine running the survey, I could not find our company actually listed there.

      There was a lot of turnover and I expect most of the dissatisfied people have either left or been fired and it wouldn’t surprise me if they got back on the “best places to work” list again. You really had to have been there a couple of years to figure out how dysfunctional the place was and that they’d never give you the respect you deserved.

  3. Maria*

    We had our holiday party yesterday and I’m still trying to recover from the embarrassment of people bearing witness to my salsa “dancing.” I do feel accomplished however for organizing a successful event and not falling on my face (dancing or otherwise).

    1. Merida May*

      Congrats! Event organizing is no easy feat, and I doubt anyone remembers the finer points of your dancing – just that there *was* dancing!

    3. MoinMoin*

      I can’t dance so I’d never notice or critique someone else’s dancing. It would have to be comically bad for me to notice and then I would assume that was your intention.

  4. ThatGirl*

    I’m ticked off at the higher-ups at my husband’s job, but here’s something positive.

    A co-worker relayed last week that her cousin (I’ll call her C, not sure where she works) was facing no PTO left and a dying father in hospice and, upon telling her manager that she needed to take some time off to be with him, C was told “if you leave, don’t come back, you’re fired.” We counseled co-worker to tell C that she needed to talk to HR about this and I specifically said she should look at FMLA time because she would likely be eligible for that, and even though it wasn’t paid time off, it would ensure she still had a job. Co-worker reported back to us yesterday that C is getting her FMLA time and that the awful manager was being dealt with by HR and she was reassured her job is safe.

    2. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      That was very nice and helpful of you to counsel her, and I am very happy about that outcome! I hope her manager isn’t nasty to her when she comes back, but tell her if he is, to document everything.

    7. zora*

      And I’m glad C talked to her cousin and got good advice from her and you!! What a terrible manager, but yay for the outcome!

    9. Gadfly*

      I had to take FMLA for a dying father. Same sort of situation–a manager who thought she knew it wouldn’t count versus the actual text of the law. HR followed the law, or I don’t know what I would have done (being young and unclear of my rights and how to follow up on these things.) I hope they watch the manager for any signs of retaliation, and I hope she has been warned FMLA stops applying once the father passes (I was devastated and really could have used at least a day to process, but it wasn’t covered)

  5. AndersonDarling*

    I turned in my notice for my second job! No more two jobs! I was trying to remember how long ago I began working there, and I can’t remember the year, but when I started I bought a Zune to put my work music on. It was a long time ago… (in a Microsoft far, far away…)

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I am! Especially weekends- this will be the last Saturday that I need to work. I’m still going to be working with some of the customers through my own business, but I’ll make my own schedule and I’ll get the full payment. It is going to be so weird having all the time back.

  6. legalchef*

    I told my job that I am pregnant this week! I told my boss first, of course, and she was so excited for me! She asked if I thought about how much time I was going to take, and then said “you’ll be a little short of FMLA, but of course we will honor it.” She also said she is fine with me fudging my sick time within reason (which is great, since my doctor is 2 blocks from my office, I usually just use the lunch hour that I never take anyway for my appointment, but if I can’t do that or it runs over, it’s nice that she isn’t going to be such a stickler). And, she said that I should definitely feel free to work from home when I need to, especially closer to my due date. So, hooray!

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      Congratulations! Wonderful news! Having a supportive boss during pregnancy was a huge relief for me. One less stress!

    4. The Rat-Catcher*

      Congratulations!! Great that they’re not coming down on the FMLA thing. People at my org in a different city are asking about how to “get around” FMLA when it’s causing hardships. Luckily we have a pretty competent HR department so that won’t get off the ground, but the principle is annoying. (We are WAY too big for the size exemption.)

  7. Blue Anne*

    Insurance question!

    I’m in Ohio. I have a good friend who has health insurance through her employer, and is struggling with serious health problems. She is currently off work, using up her sick leave and paid time off. This will be used up within the next few days. After that time, she will be on unpaid leave until she is able to come back, at which point she will be moved into a different, part-time role in a location which works better for her disability. This all makes it sound like her employer has been awesome about working with her, right?

    She was scheduled for a major surgery on her foot TODAY. Yesterday, she found out that her employer had cut off her health insurance. She had spoken with the HR person about all the arrangement above on 11/28, and then they cut off her health insurance effective 11/30, without telling her. The HR person has known she had this surgery scheduled since October.

    The surgery isn’t going ahead until she has insurance again. (And after that, until they can book her in again.) I don’t know much about health insurance but it just seems like come on, surely they can’t DO that to her?!

    Help! Does anyone know anything I don’t?

    1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      Is she paying her portion? Still employed? What was the reasoning behind ending her coverage?

      1. Blue Anne*

        She is still employed. I know she’s been having money problems, but I don’t think it’s gotten to the point where she’s not paying bills, and her health insurance would be pretty much her first priority.

        They didn’t tell her anything about cancelling her coverage – she found out at the hospital – so I don’t think they’ve given her a reason.

    2. NacSacJack*

      She should be able to get COBRA within 45 days of Employer Provider Health Insurance. I’d call the insurance company to found out what is necessary, then call HR and walk them through the steps.

      1. Natalie*

        It’s 60 days. You have 45 days to make a premium payment once you have elected to take COBRA coverage.

            1. Natalie*

              Answered my own question – the 30 days appears to be their mini-COBRA, which extends coverage to employers that are too small to be covered by federal COBRA. It has no effect on the notice period if you’re covered by big COBRA.

      3. Blue Anne*

        She had discussed transitioning to COBRA once she was in the part-time role, but my understanding (and hers of course) is that she was going to be covered on her existing health insurance until then. I may be optimistic here, but I would think that knowing she had a bunch of medical stuff including a big surgery scheduled for the interim, the HR person would have made it very clear if the opposite was actually the case?

    3. TL -*

      Has she talked to HR? I think that at least she should bring up the possibility of this feeling like retaliation for using FSLA (which isn’t okay) – nobody that I know who has used that has lost their benefits.

      1. A Day at the Zoo*

        Legally if she is on FMLA, her employer MUST continue her health insurance — that is federal law and overrides any state laws. State continuation laws only override the feds if they are better than the feds (see CA or HI for example).

        1. Charlotte Collins*

          I thought this was the case.

          When a bunch of staff was reclassified at work, nobody was told that they would have to sign up for health insurance through the system (different benefit structure), and people didn’t realize that they weren’t covered until somebody noticed it when looking in the system after the first 5 days of the effective change (most people don’t just look at their benefit info on a daily basis).

          I submitted an online ethics referral noting that this was probably against the ACA (FT staff at company with well over 50 employees) and that none of us wanted to be responsible for the taxes for not being covered when we thought we were.

          They backdated everyone coverage pretty quickly.

          Oh, and this was an insurance company. That contracts to process government benefits claims. This made everyone much angrier about the situation.

    4. GigglyPuff*

      I’m wondering, would she have been covered by health insurance in the part-time position? If not, it’s possible they already moved her over to that position in the system to fill her old one, so the insurance got cut off. But dear lord, that’s really awful.

        1. Kimberlee, Esq*

          Well, if she drops below 30 hours, even if the employer is required to generally offer coverage, it’s probably not required to offer it to her.

          1. MsCHX*

            Again. The ACA requires a look back period. Dropping below 30 hours may not immediately result in loss of coverage.

            Once a full-time employee is in “a stability period” (a type of measurement period), they must generally be offered coverage until the end of the calendar year regardless of their current hours worked.

      2. Blue Anne*

        She was going to move on to COBRA once she started the part-time position. I’m really unfamiliar with health insurance (I’ve spent the last decade in a country with socialized health care) but from what she’s saying, the plan was for there to be no breaks in her employment and no breaks in her health insurance.

        1. Natalie*

          There won’t be a break in her health care if she opts for COBRA – continuation coverage is retroactive to the date she lost employer-sponsored coverage provided she elects for it and pays the premiums within the deadlines.

          1. Blue Anne*

            Okay, this is really good to know. I’m wondering if something was lost in translation between her and the HR person here. It sounds like maybe the plan was for her to go off the existing health insurance after her meeting, and transition onto COBRA with the retroactive coverage? Does that sound like a reasonable thing to happen?

            1. Natalie*

              Sure, that’s entirely possible. Is she on FMLA-protected leave, though? If she is, they can’t put her on COBRA, they have to keep paying their portion of the premium.

              1. Blue Anne*

                I think she is? I’m not totally clear on the definitions.

                Everything in this country is so complicated! :)

            2. MsCHX*

              Right. If she is eligible for FMLA, this isn’t relevant – they have to continue her coverage. And the onus is on the employer to begin an FMLA claim, not the employee.

      3. A Day at the Zoo*

        Another thought — if she was cut off from her employer’s coverage, they must notify her of her COBRA rights within two weeks. I have seen hospitals and medical providers pay for COBRA in order to get procedures done. How big is the company? FMLA only kicks in when there are 75 people and federal COBRA kicks in at 20, but some states are less.

      4. GigglyPuff*

        Since you mentioned further down she’s not the best with paperwork. You might also want to remind her, there’s only a few more days for open enrollment to get insurance coverage for next year. (If that’s an option where she lives, I don’t know too much about the exchanges because I have insurance through my employer.)

        1. zora*

          But if she’s dropped from her employer’s health insurance, that is a qualifying event, so she can apply at that time. She doesn’t have to be inside the open enrollment time period.

    5. Natalie*

      This is super hinky. They actually aren’t allowed to cut her off the insurance because of the claims or because she’s using FMLA. She should contact HR and find out what happened with the coverage.

      She also has the right to COBRA, which is expensive but would be the same coverage she made all these care decisions with. She has until 60 days after receiving the election notice to decide whether to use COBRA coverage.

      1. Natalie*

        If you want to do some internetting, both HIPAA (the P doesn’t stand for privacy) and ERISA have provisions that apply to employer provided group coverage.

      2. SouthernLadybug*

        This is super hinky. I think it’s worth her time to contact a lawyer as well as HR. She may be able to get information from the Ohio Dept. of Insurance, as well.

        The Health Policy Institute of Ohio has excellent briefs on insurance requirements in general (I’ll link in another comment).

        I wish her luck – this isn’t passing the smell test with me.

        2. Blue Anne*

          Good point, thanks. Come to think of it a family friend is actually a pretty well known lawyer in this city – I might give him a quick call after I’ve researched this a little more, ask what he thinks.

    6. MsCHX*

      Is she on FMLA? If she is on FMLA she should still have insurance – with the employer paying their portion and her paying her portion.

      Does her company offer short term disability?

      Is she *certain* that she wasn’t notified at the onset of her leave that her coverage would end? I had someone term and I notified him that as part of his severance we would continue coverage for 2 months, giving the end date, and he was upset and surprised when his insurance terminated. Just saying, sometimes in an emotional state (e.g. illness, injury, termination), things get lost.

      2. Blue Anne*

        I’ve wondered about this a little myself. This person is really lovely but… not the best on paperwork type things? (One of the things we were going to do when she was housebound post-op was sit down in her house with my accountant hat on and go through all her bills etc., get rid of unnecessary stuff and draw up a budget…)

        Is there a format for how people must be notified? Is a letter required, or is it possible she was notified during a conversation and didn’t realize the ramifications? I think if it was set out in a letter she’d been handed, she would’ve picked up on it.

        1. GigglyPuff*

          I feel like I’ve gotten letters in the mail with information on COBRA coverage if it’s desired.

        3. sarah*

          Every time I have left a job and gotten the COBRA paperwork, it is through a letter that also includes the cost of what my insurance would be if I chose to use it.

          I would also strongly recommend looking into exchange coverage for 2017 — while COBRA is fine for short gaps, it is insanely expensive and I think not really a long-term solution for all but the super-rich. (I think at my last job when I got the letter, it would have been something like $900/month — probably not realistic for someone working part time).

            1. zora*

              Well, have her look at COBRA anyway. I think ACA has affected that, too, because I’m currently on it and mine was only $250/month, so I have paid for it myself for a couple of months to stay with my doctors a little bit longer.

              1. zora*

                And, based on everything else you’ve said, I think she should still be covered by the employer. But if that is not the case, ask around to see if you can find a health insurance broker you could get advice from. I have talked to a broker twice in my life when trying to sort out health insurance options and they have never charged me anything, but they are so much more knowledgeable about the ins and outs and other programs people might be eligible for and how to find them. I found the brokers I went to by asking people at small businesses who their broker was, and they were both happy to help me out with a couple of phone conversations without charging me.

          2. MsCHX*

            And this is why I mentioned ACA. Moving to part time doesn’t necessarily mean she loses eligibility for health insurance immediately.

      3. Judy*

        When my former employer moved our location, and I chose to take the severance instead of moving, I was supposed to continue insurance coverage for 3 months after my end date, but my insurance was terminated at my end date. I had to call in and they reinstated it. (I hear this happened to more than 50% of the people who took the package.)

    7. Judy*

      She should probably verify with the company that it was on purpose. I took severance instead of relocating with a job, and part of the package was 3 months of health insurance. When I went to get my prescriptions the month after my end date, my insurance had been cancelled. I had to call in to the company and they did reinstate it for the agreed upon time. Sometimes the system is set up to do things automatically, and when things are otherwise (like FMLA time or special packages) the system doesn’t work correctly.

      1. AnonAnalyst*

        Yeah, I’m wondering if someone in HR switched her status from full-time to part-time somewhere in their system and it triggered the insurance cancellation. Hopefully she’ll find out it was done in error once she calls HR and they will be able to manually reinstate it quickly.

    8. HRChick*

      Was she paying her portion?

      We’ve had that problem before where our organization was paying their part, but the employee on unpaid leave was not paying their part.

      Otherwise, yes talk to HR and talk to a lawyer if necessary.

      1. Natalie*

        They do have to notify you in writing in that case, before the coverage terminates, although if she’s not good with paperwork it’s possible they did and she lost the notice or something.

        1. HRChick*

          Yeah, we usually send several letters and place a few phone calls. So, even if this was the case, she should have been aware of it. But, if it’s an HR dept that does the bare minimum, they might not have given her much of a chance.

    9. MsMaryMary*

      If she is on FMLA, her employer should not be able to drop her from the plan unless she is not paying her portion of the premium. Even then, there is generally a 30 days grace period to bring her contribution payments up to current. I’ll post a link to a DOL FMLA page in my reply.

      If she’s currently on PTO and sick leave, it sounds to me like she is actively employed. In that case, she definitely should continue to be covered. I’d have her check her paycheck and see if there are still payroll deductions being taken from her check.

  8. Susan*

    There has been some serious bathroom drama in another department at my company, and I’ve been curious about what you all would think about it…

    This department has 55 male teapot makers and 5 female teapot makers (but it is shift work, so typically, only about 20-30% of them are working at any given time). They work mainly on the factory floor, and they have a large break room/office area that contains two single-occupancy bathrooms. The bathrooms started out as unisex, so anyone of any gender could use either bathroom, but one of the female teapot makers apparently made such a fuss about wanting a women-only bathroom that management designated a men’s room and a ladies’ room. The other four women were fine with two unisex bathrooms. There are other bathroom facilities for both genders fairly close to the teapot makers’ break room (one floor directly above, one floor directly below, and on the same floor at the opposite end of the building).

    One of the male teapot makers went to HR with a hostile work environment complaint against management for allowing the female teapot maker to “bully and intimidate” until she gets her way. Apparently, part of her argument for not sharing a bathroom with men was that men were peeing in the sink, which the male teapot makers say is a lie. I can see it both ways; on the one hand, I think it’s reasonable to prefer designated men’s and ladies’ rooms, but just based on math, it makes more sense to let the men use both bathrooms. If the female teapot maker didn’t want to use a unisex bathroom, she could have gone to one of the other nearby ladies’ rooms. If the men end up with a line because they can only use one of the bathrooms, they can go to one of the other nearby men’s rooms. I think both sides are being way too dramatic about it, though!

    1. Emi.*

      Oh boy, that does sound dramatic. Are the men having to stand in line, though? (Also, I really want to know if the men were actually peeing in the sink!)

      1. Susan*

        I’m not sure… There are normally only 12-15 teapot makers there at any given time, so as long as they don’t all go to the bathroom at the exact same time, how long of a line could there be? I have a hard time believing the sink-peeing allegations, because why would someone pee in the sink when there is a toilet a few feet away?

        1. OhNo*

          I’ve seen times when there is a line for the men’s room and guys were so unwilling to wait that they just piled in. The worst I’ve seen was when there were about ten guys waiting, so they cycled through three at a time – one in the toilet, one in the urinal, and one in the sink. It may have been faster, but it was gross.

          I felt really bad for the person working at the front desk – I told them what happened and they had to go clean the sink.

        2. Jessesgirl72*

          But they are all going to the bathroom at the same time- break time and lunch time, which in shift work, is normally not staggered in any way.

          1. Susan*

            Break times aren’t scheduled at specific times here, so people are generally free to go to the bathroom any time during the day. I’m sure the bathrooms are busier around lunch time, though.

        3. Shazbot*

          “why would someone pee in the sink when there is a toilet a few feet away?”

          Because they don’t like the fact that wimminfolks are working in “their” factory, so they’re going to pee somewhere they think will bother the wimminfolks but that the menfolks will overlook or think is funny.

          Which is pure speculation on my part, but not out of the realm of possibility.

        4. Kelly L.*

          The way a line happens in this scenario is if someone has to poop. If a man is pooping in the men’s bathroom, it might not open up again for a bit, and there’s the women’s one, sitting empty. Or vice versa.

    2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      If they are single occupancy bathrooms, designating them by sex makes no sense and this lady sounds like an awful person to work with. I personally would not have granted the request

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        I agree. I really, really don’t understand why people aren’t comfortable sharing bathrooms with people of different genders than them. They probably do it at home. Why is it suddenly a freakout at the office?

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          (I mean single occupancy bathrooms, although I also don’t really understand why you’d care who is in the stall next to you in a bigger bathroom either.)

          1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

            Not gonna lie, when it is single occupancy, I ignore the gender specification anyway. If the “women’s” single occupancy bathroom is taken, I use the “men’s” one. I have to pee and my lady bits don’t prevent me from peeing in the toilet you arbitrarily decided was for men only. If I were a man at this company I would be doing the same thing there and using whichever one was free

            1. Viola Dace*

              Yep. I do this all the time with SOT’s. I’m not going to wait for a “lady” toilet when there is a perfectly good “man” toilet available NOW.

            2. justsomeone*

              Same here. If only one person is going to be in the room at a time, IDC who uses it ahead or behind me. As long as I’m alone when I’m going, I’m good. I have the same feeling about stalls. One of my favorite bars has single occupancy bathrooms and finally took the gender designations off of them. I was so happy.

            3. Manders*

              Yeah, I didn’t even get in trouble for going into the “wrong” single-occupancy bathroom in North Carolina. I think the bathrooms should go back to being unisex, and that they’re probably already functionally unisex whenever this particular employee isn’t around.

              2. Not My Circus, Not My Monkeys*

                Manders, as a NC resident, your comment made me giggle. Good news is we voted that governor out of office and a lot of restaurants (at least those vying for a more hipster crowd) with single-occupancy bathrooms are switching to unisex.

                Single/unisex bathrooms were also easier on moms. When my child was too old to go with me into the women’s, but still young enough for me to be concerned sending him to public restrooms alone, I did a lot of stalking outside of men’s rooms listening to make sure he was okay. I’m glad I don’t have to do that anymore.

                As for work bathrooms, as long as they are clean that is all I really care about.

                1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

                  I so wish more establishments had family bathrooms for this reason. My husband is the primary caregiver for our daughter, plus he has 3 older daughters we have split custody of. It is a pain when he can’t take them to a bathroom when we are somewhere we don’t really want them going alone.

                  Also, can we get more changing tables in men’s rooms please? Dad’s change diapers too…

            4. AnonAnalyst*

              Ha, I do this too. I actually have been in places where there is a line to use the “women’s” single occupancy bathroom, and the “men’s” bathroom is empty. Just, what? And I’ve asked the other women if they would like to go ahead of me into the “men’s” bathroom and have had no takers. Yeah, I’m not waiting for that.

              1. Dynamic Beige*

                This happened to me recently. Same “oh no, I really couldn’t” stuff. I made them go in to the men’s — it was either you go and I wait my place in line or I’m going right now. I said I would “keep watch” because did they honestly think I would let someone else go in? (Also, they lock from the inside, so that’s not really a worry) Turned out the first woman in line hadn’t turned the handle correctly on the Ladies’, there was no one in there.

              2. Kimberlee, Esq*

                TBH at bars and stuff I do this for stall bathrooms too. I’ve never run into a dude that cared if a woman came into their bathroom and jumped into a stall. But yeah, the women always seemed much more uptight about it (for reasons that make sense due to reality and social conditioning). If there’s no line for the dudes and a 3 person line for the women, I’ll usually sort of peek into the bathroom confirm there’s space, look expectedly over at the women in line, and if I get shrugs or weird looks, I just skip the line and pop over.

                Also tbh, the first time I did this I genuinely thought it was the women’s room, so having done it once by accident made it a lot easier to do forever on purpose.

        2. Emi.*

          It is weirder when it’s a public bathroom than when it’s at home, since that’s family. Like, I don’t mind washing my brothers’ underwear or them washing mine, but I’d feel weird about my male coworkers and me washing each other’s underwear (although I can’t imagine how it would come up).

          1. OhNo*

            I get the feeling-more-comfortable-with-family thing, but it’s not like you’re getting up close and personal with someone if you use the same bathroom. I just don’t get it. To me, that’s like saying you should have different kitchens for different genders or something. Why? Are they going to get their guy-germs or lady-germs all over the counters or something?

          2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            … would you be comfortable washing your female coworkers’ underwear? I sure as hell wouldn’t. But that’s about the level of familiarity and relationship with them, not their gender.

            1. Emi.*

              I wouldn’t, but I’d be less uncomfortable about it than I would be for my male coworkers. (More realistic example: I lived in a single-sex dorm in college, and I minded strange girl dorm-mates seeing things I left in the dorm laundry room way less than I would’ve if it had been a coed dorm.)

        3. Becky with the anonymous hair*

          Many women I know have been attacked in public bathrooms; I once only just got away. Therefore I prefer to know instantly that a man who is there is not supposed to be there and unisex bathrooms make me uneasy.

          2. Kelly L.*

            It’s single-occupancy, though. You open the door, you see the whole room. There isn’t anywhere for a predator to hide, and once you’re in there with the door locked, no one can get in either.

            1. Amy the Rev*

              This ^^

              Having single-occupancy (or ‘one-ers’ as my mom and I call them) be designated by gender makes zero sense.

              I’ve been in gender-neutral multiple-stall bathrooms and while it did feel a little weird at first, and while I wouldn’t be comfortable going into one at a bar or a club, for example, it wasn’t the worst. I can understand someone wanting a multi-stall bathroom to be designated as ‘only for folks who identify as women or are GNC/NB’, for safety reasons, but its redundant to do that for a one-er.

              1. Anion*

                Restrooms and other facilities aren’t separated by gender. They’re separated by sex, physical sex.

                1. Anoctopus*

                  Actually, in most cases they *are* separated by gender, in that someone whose gender isn’t the same as their physical sex is expected to use the restroom associated with their gender, not their genitalia. There are some people trying to change that, which is where all the kerfuffle about trans people and bathroom laws comes from, but it’s still the most common arrangement.

                  Which makes sense to me for the basic reason that I’m not going to see anybody’s genitalia in the ladies’ room (and a man wouldn’t see the genitalia of a trans man who had female lower anatomy in the men’s room, because he’d use a stall). I *am* going to see the rest of them, with their clothes on — at least if it’s a multi-stall location – – and I don’t really want a burly guy with a beard at the sink next to me, no matter what genitalia he might have. Both because it would feel pretty weird and because that seems, frankly, a much more plausible way for an anatomical male who was in there for nefarious purposes to cover for himself than pretending to be a trans woman would be. Wouldn’t have to attempt to present as female or anything. Just, “Oh yeah, I know I’m a big burly guy with a beard, but I still have female anatomy so I’m supposed to be in here. Really. Wanna see? Ha! Joke’s on you; I really don’t at all, but made you look!”

          3. sarah*

            But ANYONE else in the bathroom would be an alarm bell in this scenario, since it is a single use bathroom. You would also not want a lady in there watching you pee.

          4. Not My Circus, Not My Monkeys*

            I only agree with unisex when they are single occupancy. There are a few places where I might not care, but most open to the public restrooms (I’m thinking airport restrooms and any locker room) I’d vote to stay gender assigned if they allow more than one person.

            I’ve even seen unisex dressing rooms lately from my local Target to some trendier stores. I haven’t had an issue, but they still give me pause.

        4. Project Manager*

          If there are 10 men and one woman sharing a bathroom in a facility with old plumbing (meaning only tp can be flushed), the one woman may well prefer walking down two flights of stairs, across a parking lot, and to another building rather than having those men, whom she does not know or wish to know intimately, be able to track her menstrual cycle. (It also doesn’t help the woman feel secure if she is deaf and therefore very likely to not hear a knock at/footsteps approaching the bathroom door.)

          That being said, I would not have asked to change the bathrooms. I would have gone to the existing ladies’ room on the other floor. NBD compared to walking to another building, which I was and remain willing to do.

      2. paul*

        I wound up throwing a fit when the building we rent space did something similar; one was designated as a unisex bathroom, the other was designated as a women only bathroom, but they’re both single occupancy. I kicked it up the chain to my boss, who raised it with the building landlord (we rent space, we don’t own the facilities, so it wasn’t my work itself doing this). Apparently some lady at one of the other agencies in the building had complained about using a bathroom a MAN might have been in or something.

        1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

          Oh no! Man bits might have been in here touching things! That cannot be allowed! I might turn into a man if my lady bits touch something man bits touched! (That’s how it works, right? No? Sh*t.)

        2. Artemesia*

          IF guys are peeing in the sink then I totally understand the woman only bathroom. If the men are otherwise trashing the room which sometimes happens, same deal. Otherwise — I’d be ignoring the sign if I were a guy.

          I find amusing that men are so offended by waiting in line which women have been doing forever. In Nashville when the football stadium was built, it was done with ‘potty parity’ and they misjudged how many restrooms to designate for women and men in the attempt to meet that new rule. The first weekend game, there were long men’s room lines and no lines for the ladies rooms. You would have thought it was the apocalypse. This was a PROBLEM. A PROBLEM that MUST be solved NOW. It could not be allowed to go another week. Similar lines for women of course were never a problem, just the way things were what with women and their fussy make up and such. They fixed it in a week when men were involved by re-designating restrooms to men.

          2. paul*

            Except that has near-zero relevance to our building’s situations.

            Also, if you think *women* don’t trash a restroom on occasion I don’t know how much more wrong you can be. Sloppyness isn’t a gendered trait.

            1. AnonAnalyst*

              I have to agree with this. We have unisex bathrooms where I work and while I occasionally have seen things in there that I wish I hadn’t, they have never been as bad as what I have seen in some public women’s restrooms.

            2. LBK*

              My recollection is that usually on bathroom-related threads here, the consensus is that the women’s bathrooms actually tend to be dirtier than men’s bathrooms, despite what gendered expectations might make you think.

            3. Marvel*

              Mmm, as someone who’s been in both a lot (I’m transgender)… it’s much more common in men’s bathrooms. It took me a really, really long time to get used to.

          3. LBK*

            IF guys are peeing in the sink then I totally understand the woman only bathroom.

            As a man, can I get a non-sink-pee-er bathroom? Because I don’t want to stick my hands in that either.

    3. NacSacJack*

      I’m not sure employers are required to provide gender-specific bathrooms, especially if they are single occupancy. Every time I see one, I appreciate the employer/business even more.

        1. NACSACJACK*

          Sorry, I meant anytime I see a unisex bathroom (Woe to me, read, read and read again before posting) LOL!

            1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

              Especially since gendered bathrooms are so common, it would be weird to be impressed with them (even if that were your preference).

      2. Stellaaaaa*

        There are regulations about needing to have a certain number of fixtures (toilets/urinals) per maximum number of employees on premises, however that might not be relevant here since it sounds like there are other bathrooms in the building. As per OSHA:

        “The employer does not have to provide separate toilet facilities for each sex when they will not be occupied by more than one employee at a time, can be locked from the inside, and contain at least one toilet.”

    4. LCL*

      Single occupancy bathrooms? The female employee is out of line. I guarantee the males are using the ‘Women’s’ bathroom if they have to. No well adjusted manager wants to monitor bathroom use.

    5. Prismatic Professional*

      Single occupancy restrooms having a specified gender is stupid. There is only one person in them at a time, so what’s the big deal? Also – how does she know the men were peeing in the sink? Why would they when there is a toilet *right there*? I think this woman is way out of line. It also particularly sucks for any non-binary/trans* people working there (and no, you/she wouldn’t necessarily know).

      1. Not My Circus, Not My Monkeys*

        I just keep thinking why would a guy pee in the sink when the physics of it are off unless said male is really, really tall. That alone would be my argument against that type of complaint.

    6. Tardis*

      This is kinda nerdy, but… this question is really similar to a grad school problem set I had when dealing with how to model queuing issues. If a disgruntled person at your office is good with Excel, you could mathematically work out what the ideal arrangement is to optimize average waits for the bathroom using a M/M/c queue formula.

    7. Rhys*

      I mean I wouldn’t be completely surprised if men were peeing in the sink because life is infinitely stranger etc etc, but maybe try having a “No peeing in the sink” sign first? Or maybe the lady is just upset with the cleanliness of the bathrooms in general, and if you have one that is only used by 5 people it’s definitely going to be cleaner than the one used by 55 people regardless of gender.

      1. Cass*

        It may be my pessimism showing, but maybe there’s a chance that could actually encourage someone to do it. (So weird, I’ve just seen people get strangely gleeful and take pictures of themselves flouting signage.)

        1. No, please*

          I did some janitorial work part time for extra money a few years back. I cleaned the same office for six months every week. They never fixed the broken urinal AND never stopped peeing in it. I stopped cleaning it!

    8. KellyK*

      We had a similar (much less dramatic!) situation, although our gender balance isn’t as lop-sided. There are about 25 people, 8 of whom are women. The two bathrooms were unisex when we moved in, and one of the women insisted on breaking them up because “men make a mess.” Having used the men’s room when the ladies’ is occupied, I haven’t seen an issue. I think that when the numbers are as skewed as they are at your workplace, unisex bathrooms make much more sense.

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        Men at least put the seat up before peeing all over the place.

        I have never found a men’s room to be more disgusting than a women’s room. Women definitely make a mess!

        1. Rhys*

          Yeah, if I had a nickel for every time there was a pube on the toilet seat in the ladies’ room in my office…

          2. The Strand*

            I think the “lady” or “ladies” who pooped on the seat, on at least three occasions in my building, still win the gross-out contest.

        2. Shazbot*

          Yep, for every puddle on the men’s room floor there is a seat covered with hoverpiss in the women’s room.

        3. bunniferous*

          You obviously have never cleaned the Waffle House restrooms on third shift. Decades ago when I did I threw bleach all over the mens room floor before doing anything else. Oh how it bubbled up……

          2. Artemesia*

            This. It may not be men peeing in the sink, but rather peeing all over the floor. Wading in piss or having your pants get soaked at the hem when you lower them to sit on the toilet is pretty gross. If the men’s room is hazardous in this way — peeing all over the floor, peeing in the sink, whatever then the reasoning for separating them is stronger.

            1. sarah*

              But wait, why should the men at this company have to deal with a piss-covered bathroom either? I don’t get how it is possible for a restroom to be gross enough that we can’t have women using it, but somehow totally fine for all the men to use it. If the bathroom is that gross, then the cleaning schedule needs to be adjusted so it is cleaned more frequently.

          3. paul*

            McDonald’s, in college, in a college town.

            Frankly, I was tempted to just nuke both bathrooms at the end of every shift. Throw in some naplam, let *that* clean them out. Shudderworthy. Particularly after football games.

      2. Gene*

        In a former job, I was the night dispatcher/janitor at an air ambulance service/FBO. The women’s room was usually much messier than the men’s. And the male/female ration was about 60/40, accounting for employees and customers. Anyone who thinks only men pee on the seat has never been in a public bathroom.

        As an aside, I really miss working graveyard shift.

    9. Jessesgirl72*

      I think Management gave in to the wave maker, despite how incredibly unreasonable (and lying) she is, which inconveniences a lot of people, and the only way to get them to turn it around is to make even more waves- this time legal ones. The overkill is only in response to the bad management decision, and is probably warranted. If nothing else, to stop them from giving in to her next ridiculous demand.

    10. The Bread burglar*

      While I don’t normally care who is in the stall next to me. I can sort of understand where she may be coming from.

      Just because I once worked on a construction site with unisex toilets and had issues where the men were caught peeing in the sink. They also had a horrible habit of not locking the door. And I have no desire to see my colleagues (of any gender identity) bits. Don’t care what bits ya got I don’t want to see them.

    11. James*

      Yeah, that’s not a good situation. Especially if the woman lied about something like this. I mean, there’s simply no reason, as a man, to pee in a sink. I have never been that drunk!

      The woman raising a fuss about this is being unreasonable. If the ratio is 12:1 male to female, and the total numbers are that low, having unisex bathrooms makes the most sense. Frankly, directives otherwise will be ignored. If there is an issue with cleanliness it’s an issue that should be taken up with the staff (“You are adults, act like it”) or maintenance (“What can we do to help ensure the bathrooms are sanitary?”).

      I have to wonder if there’s something else going on. Does she feel that her privacy is at risk? Woman have different sanitary needs then men (tampons and the like, for example); are those being adequately addressed? Are the women being harassed or rushed in some way? It’s worth at least checking into.

      I’m not sure that this constitutes a hostile work environment, but I can understand where the men are coming from. They have been severely inconvenienced due to one person–and if she lied, it’s even worse! Management has created a situation where the staff believes that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and are applying that principle. The men are probably being too dramatic, and the woman almost certainly is (with the caveat that any of the issues I raised in the previous paragraph, or similar issues, would negate that); however, once the woman got her way, the men would reasonably conclude that they had no other choice.

      1. paul*

        Not to mention, most sinks are pretty high up, unless you’re like 7′ tall! Seems like it’d be a challenge

    12. sarah*

      This does sound like a lot of drama! But regardless, I can see no reason why someone can’t use a gender neutral bathroom, especially when it is SINGLE STALL. If it is true that 59 people want the bathrooms to be gender neutral, and 1 person does not, it seems like the 59 people should win, regardless of other available options. It’s not like there is a privacy issue given that only one person should be in there at a given time. And surely this person has shared single use bathrooms with men at some point in their life (i.e. every single home where there is at least one male living there).

      If indeed someone is peeing in the sink, that should be investigated regardless of whether it’s a gender neutral bathroom or not — why should men have to put up with a pee-filled sink just because it’s another dude doing it?

    13. The Rat-Catcher*

      I’m with you. If there is a women’s-only restroom nearby, then what exactly was the purpose of the complaint? She doesn’t want to walk to that one?

      But the man who went to HR is also WAY overreaching by classifying this as “hostile workplace environment.” I’d bet he heard somewhere that those were buzzwords to use to get HR to listen to you.

      1. LBK*

        Yeah, I’m not really sure how this qualifies as a hostile work environment. The way the guy’s complaint is phrased has zero interaction with the legal definition of a HWE.

    14. One Handed Typist*

      This amazes me, especially considering my university is constructing multi-stall unisex bathrooms! Yes, gender specific restrooms are available in the building, but most new restrooms added or remodeled are converted to all gender restrooms.

  9. RKB*

    We did a semester end peer review, and one of the anonymous sheets I got back said (seriously):

    I appreciate the content you contribute to discussions and your presentations have excellent delivery and thoughtfulness. Unfortunately I do believe that our classmates and professors are more prone to enjoying your presence due to your looks. You are very pretty but that gets you only so far in the real world.

    I still don’t know whether to be amused or upset. Currently I’m a mixture of both.

    2. Dawn*

      Uhhhh yeah that’s way more of a projection on the part of the feedback writer than on you. Definitely OK to feel pissed about it, because wow that is inappropriate! However, realize that “in the real world” (aka not the bubble of college) for the most part it doesn’t matter what you look like as long as you do good work and are professional- so this feedback is doubly stupid!

      1. Liane*

        And in the non-school World of Work, you will NOT endear yourself to your colleagues for being an ass–and if you are a stupid enough ass to put prejudiced brayings in writing, you risk getting in trouble. As AAM posts & comments frequently demonstrate.

    3. Ann Furthermore*

      Ugh, that is so gross. I’m sorry! If that’s the only comment like that that you received, consider it an outlier, write off the person who wrote it as unpleasant toad, and move forward.

    4. Weekday Warrior*

      Well that peer is going to be sad when they find out that being pretty -or tall – also help in the “real world”. Especially coupled with excellent discussion contributions and presentations. Go you! :)

      1. Red Reader*

        I scrolled really fast from the above thread about restrooms to this comment and read “pee-er” rather than “peer”.

        TGIF.

      2. RKB*

        The funny thing is I’m 5’3″. I’m also not considered part of the sociocultural standard of beauty. I just like makeup.

        Not to mention we’re in training to become speech therapists and kids don’t really care about what I look like, anyway!

        1. twig*

          My speech therapist wore these awesome bulky earrings! I was 6-7 at the time and I thought it was neato — but I cared more about the stickers she gave me when I did a good job learning how to pronounce me R’s.

        2. Tau*

          Some adults go to speech therapists, although I guess not as many and you may be going in a kid direction anyway! And I’d argue that even as a grown-up, if you’re focusing on the appearance of the therapist you’re probably not getting the most you can out of therapy…

          1. RKB*

            Oh, I know! I’m just going the peds route. I actually even have a job offer waiting for me pending completion of my practicum.

      3. Marisol*

        Yeah I was going to say exactly that. Unfair though it may be, being pretty can get you extremely far in this world. It’s just an asinine comment.

    5. Pearl*

      What the actual. “Your content is good, but I think ‘other people’ are shallow. By other people, I definitely do not mean me, even though I’m the one writing this comment.” Are you supposed to walk around in a partial mask, Batman-style?

      1. Hermione*

        But then what if they have a obscenely attractive lower jaw? Best go full clown mask for optimal feature distortion.

    6. J*

      Really? Anonymous negging? “I appreciate your mind, but I think everyone else just thinks you’re hot.”

      Ignore.

    7. CM*

      I guess being amused would be the emotionally healthiest way to react, but I’m angry on your behalf! WTF. At least they started out by acknowledging your actual work. I don’t really know what they are trying to say here, in fact — the first and last sentence seem to contradict each other.

    8. NW Mossy*

      And their suggestion is what, exactly? Channel “She’s All That” in reverse and start wearing dowdy clothes and glasses, Hollywood-style?

      I think some people forget that the purpose of feedback is to influence future behavior….

    9. Phoebe*

      I’d do my best to let it go. The author should have quit after the first sentence. The rest of the comment is not only inappropriate, but has nothing to do with your performance. Sounds like sour grapes to me. Definitely their issue, not yours.

    10. vanBOOM*

      Wow, fuck that person! You can be both good at what you do *and* be attractive.

      I agree with others here: the first part of the comments is about you (content, delivery, thoughtfulness), and the second part of the comments that make reference to your looks is about them.

    12. Artemesia*

      There is all sorts of research that shows that female academics are judged entirely differently than male academics and tend to get lower scores when they fail to be appropriately feminine and if they are perceived as feminine i.e. catch 22.

    13. sarah*

      Assuming you are a student in this scenario, I would let your professor know about this. I am a professor and I never do anonymous stuff for just this reason (people can get super shitty when things are anonymous). I would want to know if students in my class were using my class and my assignments to harass other students, and I would probably change the assignment for the next semester to make sure it didn’t happen again. (It may even be possible that the prof has a way to trace this unprofessional and unacceptable comment back to the person who wrote it.)

      1. RKB*

        Well, we receive the feedback papers first (in our mailboxes) and then turn them into our respective advisors. I dropped mine off with a sticky note on that particular review, but I was so flabbergasted I just put a “?”

        I haven’t heard back from her yet but I’m sure they won’t just brush it off. My program is very small, less than 40 of us, so it’s not like it’s an anonymous drop in a sea of hundreds.

    16. The Rat-Catcher*

      They can’t even come up with an actual criticism of you. I’d take that as a victory and move on, with the understanding that Commenter is just awful.

    17. Rosamond*

      I’d ignore the feedback but consider saying something to the course instructor about receiving inappropriate feedback about your personal appearance. Not to try to get this person in trouble, but to alert the instructor they might need to provide more guidance about what kind of feedback is appropriate in peer reviews.

      1. RKB*

        I have tiny, tiny wrists. Are those sensual? When I gesture during presentations do I capture the eye of any willing suitor with my wrists? I must know now.

    20. General Ginger*

      So, in essence, “it’s nice you’re smart, it’s a shame other people, definitely not me, but totally other people, just don’t appreciate how smart you are”? What the hell?

    21. Panda Bandit*

      It reads like a middle schooler’s tantrum. You’re smart and pretty and everyone likes you better than me so I must flail around and try to take you down a peg.

    2. Jessi*

      I’m from NZ! What would you like to know? July is in the middle of the winter so make sure you pack warm layers too.

      1. TL -*

        Everything! How do I know if it’s a one bedroom apartment or 1 bedroom in a shared apartment? (This is so confusing to me!) What are good places to look for housing online? What should I bring? What should I leave?

        What’s the book scene like? What’s the internet situation (I hear conflicting stories)?!) What does a NZ cell phone plan look like/cost?

        I’m moving from Boston so I feel I’ve got this winter thing down; not super worried about that.

        1. Jessi*

          It won’t be Boston winter cold! Ever…… If you are moving to Wellington your best bet is a good raincoat

          Trademe (dot co dot nz) is an excellent place to look for accommodation. You have two options: ‘flatmates’ those looking to fill a room in their house, or ‘rentals’ for the whole flat (and you can specify just one room). If they use the word ‘flatmates’ there are other people living in the house.

          To bring – This year I’ve moved across the world twice. If you haven’t used it in 6 months don’t bring it.
          Cell phone plans – all of the companies are pretty similar: 2 degrees, spark and vodaphone are the big ones. You can go contract but they all have fine pay as you go deals too (ie Spark has $39 for 1G data 300 talk minutes and unlimited texts).

          Like textbooks? or reading novels?

          Internet situation – slow and way expensive by the rest of the worlds standards but unless you live in a tiny town (guessing not since you are a uni) it will function fine, slower than you are used to for streaming films though.

          Lemme know if you have more questions!

    3. LouG*

      I’m from the US and got my masters in New Zealand! It was amazing and I would go back in a heart beat. Would be happy to talk if you have any specific questions :)

      1. TL -*

        What did you bring that you found incredibly useful and what did you bring that you didn’t need at all? how much stuff did you take?

        How much time did it take you to set up the logistics of life once you’d moved there? Did you work – what was finding a job like? What was the university schedule like?

        (I’m a dangerous person to ask if they have any questions, clearly!)

        1. LouG*

          I got a job at the university where I was studying. I studied abroad in NZ as an undergrad so I had spent about 6 months in the country before and still had friends there which made it much easier to get started. The hardest part was finding an apartment, surprisingly expensive and took some time. I Most NZ homes are very drafty and not well insulated, so bring lots of warm clothes. My hot water bottle saved me on more than one occasion. I packed two big suit cases and a hiking backpack. Anything you would need for the home you can buy there cheap. University schedmany ule was fine, everyone in general is way more laid back (“no worries”) so I had to make myself treat it like a job, 9-5 most days with research, otherwise it would be very easy to have a masters that would last for many years! I’m so jealous! Even with alllll of the earthquakes (I was at UC) it was one of the best times of my life!

    4. acmx*

      Congratulations!

      No advice but I read a blog about an American woman doing her PhD in NZ (not sure what part). It’s a PF blog though. sensetodollars dot blogspot.

      1. TL -*

        ooh, that’s actually super helpful! I’m still working on figuring out the finance thing so that’s very nice to get a sense of what I’d need.

    7. TL -*

      Also if anyone here works in a biology lab (molecular in particular), in NZ, I’d have a few questions if you’re willing!

    8. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

      Whereabouts in New Zealand? Advice will be VERY different depending on where you’re headed :)

      My email address is on the main page of my website, feel free to hit me up, between my husband and I we’ve lived all over the country so I’m sure we’ll be able to give you a few tips :)

  11. Sigrid*

    Tips for not crying when receiving feedback? It’s a purely physiological reaction; I otherwise remain calm. I’m talking about tears welling up, not sobbing or anything like that. It’s extremely frustrating and the exact opposite of how I want to appear when I get feedback but I can’t seem to stop it. I know this has been been discussed here before, but I’m not finding the relevant AAM posts.

    1. Orca*

      I have no advice, just commiseration. I’m the same way, I will never understand what logic my body uses for deciding when I need to cry.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I had my exit interview at work this morning. I’m happy to be going to my new job, but I did tear up a little. (Even though I’ve been really unhappy there the past few years, that doesn’t mean that I didn’t have some good times the years before. Or that I won’t miss some great people. Many of whom I wish could also escape.)

        So, no suggestions. Just commiseration.

    2. Lee*

      I have this issue too. I’ve found that taking small sips of water can help a bit to alleviate the physical reaction. If it doesn’t work, I tend to say something “I’m not upset, just a weird physical reaction,” which can help. It’s definitely frustrating!

      1. AndersonDarling*

        And if you try to look up with your eyes (not your head), tears will drain into your sinuses instead of falling out your eyes. It helps with little well-ups, but not when its a full on cry.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      It took me a while to separate my work from, well, from “me.” I used to take everything personally and I’d get upset and well up. But I began to realize that the work I do isn’t the same as who I am. Because I messed up a report doesn’t mean I’m a bad person.
      And everyone has to get tough feedback to learn. It’s a natural part of work.

    4. JBPL*

      A former boss once told me that if you take small sips of water you won’t be able to cry (or, rather, he said it in the context of giving feedback to someone prone to tears– get them a glass of water first, not kleenex) and I’ve used that advice myself. I wouldn’t say it’s 100% foolproof but it does definitely help.

    6. 2 Cents*

      Just sat through a meeting where I felt like crying the whole time but couldn’t (for many reasons). I’d have a tissue on hand just in case, but I found biting the insides of my mouth, biting my tongue, pushing my tongue either at the top of my mouth or on the bottom all distracted me enough to keep me from the tears spilling over.

    7. Jubilance*

      Oh man, I’ve had the same problem almost all my life, though I’ve gotten better.

      My strategy is to distract myself in some way – snap a hair tie on my wrist, small doodles in my notebook, pinching my thigh, sipping from my water bottle, etc. I’ve also try to do a little meditation/pep talk beforehand, reminding myself that I’m not perfect and I don’t need to be, feedback isn’t personal, etc.

    8. MC*

      I don’t have this issue, but I have teared through a meeting when I put some capsacin ointment on my shoulders, touched my shoulders then touched my eye. You could always use that excuse.

    9. Annie Moose*

      I am soooo sorry. I do the exact same thing, if I am in a stressful situation at all, my body is like “CLEARLY IT IS TIME TO WEEP UNCONTROLLABLY”.

      If you figure out something that works for you, let me know!! I am probably going to try some of the techniques people have mentioned, the drinking water one in particular. Maybe just having something else to do (physically) will help!

    10. Anonymous Educator*

      I think how you approach this depends on whether you’re crying because the feedback is particularly harsh or you’re just crying with any feedback.

      If you cry at any feedback, just preemptively offer “I know this is silly, but I just have this physiological response of crying. I’m not being defensive or not processing the feedback. Just wanted to let you know, so you don’t think it’s weird.” And then just cry.

      If you cry at harsh feedback, well, it’s harsh, and that’s just a natural human response. Bring some tissue and wipe up the tears and then take notes or do something else to indicate that you are receptive to the feedback, even though you’re responding to it emotionally.

    11. Manders*

      Bring a notebook with you and write in it! It makes you look attentive AND distracts you just enough to keep the tears from flowing. And then you’ll have a written list of actionable things that you can look over later in private when you’re feeling calmer.

      Also, no one has to see what you’re writing down–once, during a really bad meeting at a toxic job, I wrote a list of things I needed to get done for job hunting. It kept me looking calm and attentive when I was actually pissed off and ready to be out of there for good.

    12. Marisol*

      google EFT tapping. you tap on acupressure points while describing your problem. it’s a little woo-woo, which some people object to, but I have found it to be effective with all kinds of personal issues, in particular things I’m insecure about, and there’s no harm in giving it a try.

    13. BestInShow*

      Clench your butt cheeks
      It really really works!

      I got over an hour and a half of negative feedback on my last review and did not shed a tear.

    14. Wannabe Claire*

      I’ve read about other people doing this, and it has worked pretty well for me: pretend you’re a tough fictional character. So whenever I have a conversation that might make normal-me teary, I imagine that I’m really Claire Underwood (or Professor McGonagall). It does feel a little silly when I’m doing it, but it works and the pretending hasn’t interfered with getting my points across; it only prevents the tears.

      1. Blue Swan*

        As someone who has cried quite a few times receiving both positive and negative feedback, I am totally going to channel a powerful fictional character next time I feel myself welling up. This sounds like a fabulous idea.

    15. AnonAcademic*

      For me very controlled breathing helps. When I feel tears well up I take a deep breath and redirect my thoughts for a few seconds. It allows the tears to drain into the sinuses and not continue producing. It also works for when a sappy commercial or movie scene gets me in the feels but I’d be embarrassed to cry in front of others :).

    16. Epsilon Delta*

      These are some great tips. I also have this problem, although as I’ve gotten older it happens less and less. I think what is happening in my case, is that I hear something negative and my initial reaction is to take it personally (“your work is not good” == “you suck”), so that triggers a little teary-ness. Then I am appalled/embarrassed/frustrated that I’m about to cry (“omg who cries over that?”), and it spirals (“omg I’m so embarrassed that I’m STILL about to cry”) until it pushes it over the edge to actual crying. When I figured that out, I was able to cut it out at the getting teary stage by noticing it and allowing myself to move on instead of focusing on the embarrassment. It works most of the time, but if I get caught off-guard it sometimes fails.

      Also, fun fact I learned on the radio recently – women have smaller tear ducts than men, which is part of the reason that women cry more easily than men.

    17. EmmaLou*

      I cry at beautiful things, amazing things, feats of engineering, criticism, compliments, weddings, new babies, graduations (although that may just be the speeches that never end), awesome things, surprising things. In an art museum, I’m a mess. Not sobs, just tears. I read an article for we weepers of much weepage, that it is our bodies way of balancing our strong feelings, of relieving all of the pressure of whatever we are feeling. When receiving criticism, I’ve had to say, as matter of factly as possible, “Please ignore the tears, I am listening.” (I also find y0ga breathing can help some.)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Dragging things out in the open such as “please ignore the tears….” can start to wear down the intensity of the tears. You may have to do it a few times before you start to see changes in you. OP, you might find this helpful, especially if you have no other way to cover the watery eyes, because there is too much water.

        When I am tired I stutter or look for words. Toastmaster would throw shoes at me, but I found that if I simply say, “excuse me, let me try that again”, I can remain on track so much better. Dragging things out into the open can be a powerful release.

        When I first started working I teared easily. I tried to analyze reasons for that and I found there were several. This is often the case, if the tears are flowing more than one thing is triggering the tears. Watch your self-talk. Don’t use your own thoughts to get yourself even more stressed. Tell yourself reassuring things such as:

        I will be okay here.
        I am safe here.
        The boss is trying to help me.
        I can do this.

        Don’t tell yourself things like this:

        OH crap. I feel the tears AGAIN.
        Here we go, how will I hide the tears THIS time.
        It’s the tears again. Will I ever grow up?

        This latter group will not console you; it will not strengthen you. A good rule of thumb is if you can’t say it to a friend, then you should not tell yourself that either.

  12. leftout*

    Question for everyone:

    So my company travels on occasion for trade shows. For most recent show, our team (of 6) rented a big house through Airbnb to stay in. I, the only woman on the team, was originally involved in the planning process, and even helped find houses to try.

    After weeks of looking into it, planning seemed to sizzle — or so I thought. Turns out, all the rest of the team got a house and didn’t tell me. I only found out when I asked the others where they booked their hotel. “Oh, we got an Airbnb.” By this point, many of the hotels close to the show were booked, so I scrambled to find an off-site hotel.

    Fast forward to now. We’ve got another show coming up, and they’re doing an Airbnb again. This time, I was told I’m expressly not invited.

    Here’s what sucks, though — one of the younger guys keeps talking to the others about it, like “hell yeah, looking forward to the house! Gonna have SO much fun!”

    So I feel left out here. I know at the last show, they had a lot of great bonding experiences, from late night talks to chats over breakfast. Meanwhile, I’m left to fend for myself.

    Am I wrong to feel so left out? Would it be strange to tell my boss that these comments sting?

    1. ThatGirl*

      That’s so weird. It sounds like the guys want to have “bro time” and yeah, I’d be hurt and offended too. Definitely talk to your boss.

      1. leftout*

        Little more background here: At the last show, I visited the house. BigBoss, after a few drinks, asked me if I felt left out. I lightheartedly said “yeah, a little,” and changed the subject. He proceeded to bring it up the rest of the night. For example, an off-color joke that I lightheartedly groaned at = “See, this is why we can’t have you here.” It was awkward.

        My supervisor asked me last week if I’d “be okay” with them doing the house thing again. So I’m put in a position of being honest — “It’s a big bummer that I’m not involved” — and prevent them from doing it again, or saying “I’d like to feel like part of the team here, but I don’t want to stop you — you can tell BigBoss that I’m fine with it.” I went with the latter.

        I was feeling good about it, too, until I hear the guys of the office talking about how epic this house thing is going to be. They have a nickname for it and everything.

        1. ThatGirl*

          It sucks that your boss is part of it. I’m honestly not sure what I’d do in this situation, but it does seem very much like sex-based discrimination.

        2. Anon This Time*

          I may be cynical, but I’ve been on trips like this and stayed in similar arrangements. I’d wager that some of the guys are planning on cheating on their SOs.

          That kind of arrangement was fun when I was in my 20s. Now that I’m older, I would prefer the single hotel room. I know it sucks to be left out, but nothing good is going to come out of that housing arrangement.

          1. sitting with sad salad*

            Agreed with this idea that some of the guys may be planning to cheat, and it sound like something nothing good will come out of. I would avoid it.

    2. Dawn*

      Uh, yeah that’s really not OK. That’s explicitly excluding you from something work-related because of your gender. Definitely talk to your boss and maybe even go to HR over it.

      1. leftout*

        Unfortunately, we don’t have in-house HR. We have an outside firm take care of our onboarding and such. No one, as far as I know, have called them in to help with conflicts — so my doing so would be seen as me taking it way too far.

        1. Temperance*

          You doing anything to assert yourself will be seen as taking it too far. They’re excluding you because you’re a woman, full stop, and keeping you from opportunities to develop and strengthen relationships that are going to help your career. This is the OBC in action, and I fucking hate your boss for going along with it.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            Amen. I went through this in high school, so I relate. The two of us girls had to miss class every Friday because the guys wanted a rap session. They were saying things that they should not have been saying in a PUBLIC SCHOOL classroom, that was what was actually wrong here. It was not a mistake I made by being born female.

    3. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      It seems they are leaving you out specifically because of your sex, and that borders on illegal doesn’t it? Is your boss one of the ones leaving you out?

      1. leftout*

        My boss IS one of the people leaving me out. He’s tried to get an Airbnb going for years, so he’s been really invested in this whole process.

    5. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Um, yes. They absolutely shouldn’t be doing this. It’s not about feeling left out or the comments “stinging” — it’s about being explicitly denied meaningful professional experiences, because of your gender. That’s not allowed, and they need to stop immediately.

    6. Ann Furthermore*

      Yeah, I’d feel weird about that too. It’s oddly passive-aggressive on the part of the guys. Like ThatGirl said, they probably want dude time and think having a woman there would cramp their style. I’d mention it to my boss too — unless your boss is also a member of the douche-patrol that you apparently work with.

      Try to look on the bright side though. You get your own hotel room, your own bathroom that you don’t have to share with a bunch of guys, you can watch whatever you want on TV, and you’ll have plenty of alone time, if that kind of thing is important to you.

      Also, take it as an opportunity to network and make contacts in your field. You might meet some really nice people and make some new friends.

      1. leftout*

        My boss IS one of the people involved, unfortunately. He was the biggest proponent of doing the house thing. I know he personally wouldn’t have a problem with me being in the house, but BigBoss isn’t comfortable with it.

        1. Jules the First*

          So uh, if your boss is a proponent of the house thing and BigBoss is the one with a problem with you being there, and you have no HR, then it’s on your boss to explain to BigBoss why doing it and leaving you out of it is a problem. It is your boss’s job to advocate for the members of his team!

        2. Zahra*

          Well then, the solution is to not do the AirBnB thing. Everyone in the hotel, because, obviously, you can’t discriminate on a gender basis. By the way, is the organization big enough to be covered by anti-discrimination laws? Check federal and state regulations.

        3. Ask a Manager* Post author

          You need to speak up. Since there’s no HR, you need to say this to your boss: “You know that we can’t do this kind of thing based on gender, right? It’s illegal. So given that, how should we proceed?”

          Are you comfortable saying that?

          1. leftout*

            My concern with doing this: My supervisor had a chat with me about this last week and asked me if I’d be okay with it. I said yes, because:
            -I know the company is saving a lot of money doing this, which they’re proud of
            -They plan to use the house for events during the show
            -If I said I wasn’t ok with it, it’d ruin the above 2 points and force everyone to stay in a hotel.

            So it kind of felt like I had to agree. If I go to him now and express concern with the gender implications of this situation, they’d see this as coming out of nowhere and it’d tank my reputation here. So I’m in a really tough position.

            (I only say that for more background; I’m a longtime reader and really thankful you chimed in.)

            1. Mustache Cat*

              But you don’t want to force everyone in the hotel, you just want to be in the house, right?

            2. Temperance*

              So not only are they excluding you from bonding that will help further your career, they’re excluding you from events as well? This is bullshit.

              It would not be *you* ruining things, it’s their bad planning and sexism to even bring it up in the first place.

            3. One Handed Typist*

              So you are fearful of retaliation or a hostile workplace because you don’t go along with their gender discrimination? It’s such a hard situation.

              What if you wait until after this particular trade show, then bring it up to the Boss and BigBoss? It would prevent this from happening in the future but allow you the escape of this situation now.

            4. Undine*

              Well, could you say something like this: you researched this, or talked to a friend who is a lawyer (surely someone on here is a lawyer), and you hadn’t though of this before, but although you are personally fine staying in a hotel, you now realize it’s illegal. And what are we going to do about that? Because you didn’t know at the time you were asked. And it is important that it is illegal, not because you would complain, but because it is illegal.

            6. Not So NewReader*

              “-If I said I wasn’t ok with it, it’d ruin the above 2 points and force everyone to stay in a hotel.”

              1)If money is such an issue then they can send less people, maybe one or two people instead of everyone. The one or two people can stay in a hotel.
              2)What is their plan for when they have more female employees?
              3) They can probably find a place with a conference room to set up their event.

              You were supposed to feel like you had to agree. But it’s not up to you to solve their budget problems. It’s up to management to build a plan that is financially doable.

        4. Lissa*

          The BigBoss isn’t “comfortable” with it? What’s his reasoning for that? this seems super wrong on every level to be honest…yeah, please do speak up!

      2. leftout*

        And yes, I realize that for many, the thought of saying in an Airbnb with coworkers is a nightmare scenario, and I do plan to try and enjoy my space. It just sucks because we’re a closeknit team, and before now, gender was never even a factor. Now it’s there and at the forefront.

        1. The Rat-Catcher*

          Aside from the gender discrimination issues (which are rampant), this also sounds like a case of your boss getting too buddy-buddy with your coworkers. When it comes time to assign a big project, or for raises, is he going to let those personal connections be a factor?

          1. OhBehave*

            I think that’s where the concern stems from; boss being chummy with OP’s coworkers. Based on the comments/jokes made when you were in the house, you’re not missing much. However, I do know that in many of these cases, serious work discussions can take place mainly because of the chill atmosphere.

            If this was an event that took place every month or so I would be more concerned. If it’s just a few times a year, I don’t see where any closeness is lost. Outside of the inside jokes that you wouldn’t get that is. It all just takes me back to school and not being invited to THE party. That same party everyone talked about on Monday.

            However, it is absolutely discrimination based on your gender. The best solution is for everyone to move back to a hotel. The boss can have a large suite where entertaining clients/peers would still happen.

    7. Important Moi*

      Do you want everyone to stay at a hotel in individual rooms? Since your co-workers appear to have bonded on the last trip are you now willing to stay at a Airbnb with them? How we they able to not include you for this trip? What is your company policy?

        1. leftout*

          Yup! I was fine with staying with them both times. I was left out of plans the first time and expressly not invited the second time.

      1. leftout*

        BigBoss isn’t comfortable having a woman there. I think they’re afraid of “something happening.”

        1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

          I think you need to talk to HR. They are leaving you out because of your sex and that is against the law

        2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

          And what does Big Boss think is going to happen? Two consenting adults might have S-E-X? Or that sharing a house with a woman will lead to those scary genetics that prevent men from controlling themselves that I keep hearing about?

        3. Pebbles*

          Oh FFS. I presume all of you are adults, sounds to me like BigBoss takes this situation as license to not act like one.

          (Sorry, I’m a female engineer in a male-dominated workplace and thankfully I work with adults, so hearing about this sort of thing happening really grinds my gears.)

        4. Alex*

          ” I think they’re afraid of “something happening.”” I can’t stand this type of mentality. So it appears that they want to something objectively concrete by excluding you on the basis of your gender due to this vague notion of “something happening” .

          I’ve encountered this before. I would ask them what they meant by “something happening” and watch them squirm for a bit before they come up with answers. If they mention anything about sexual assault, I would counter with “I didn’t know we were in the business of employing people who sexually assault their coworkers, shouldn’t we screen people like that out?” or if they take it in the direction of inappropriate fraternizing I would ask to explain to me why we are entrusted with the work that we do yet not entrusted with maintaining basic professional boundaries. At the end they would usually shut down the conversation and label me a troublemaker. I didn’t care at the time. To me, it is worth it to make people squirm when they inflict their vague generalities on to people in a way that is objectively sexist.

          ~I’m sorry you are going through this. I have been excluded from work things on the basis of my gender and I know a lot of other people that have been too. It’s not cool.

        5. Jessesgirl72*

          That is illegal. Full stop.

          It’s not taking things too far to go to HR about things that are expressly illegal. Having a culture that makes you think it’s overreacting is how they get away with doing unethical and illegal things.

          But I also think you should have been honest with your boss when asked about it.

        6. sarah*

          If that comment was really said “I’m not comfortable having a woman there”, then don’t call HR – call the EEOC!

        7. Temperance*

          Well BigBoss needs to get bent. I’m so sorry that this is happening to you, but there is nothing that I hate more than sexism at play. These are professionals who should know better, but they’d rather hang with their bros than act like adults. What the f.

        8. Not So NewReader*

          I wonder if the boss understands that he is basically saying he thinks his male employees are rapists.
          I wonder if the male employees are okay with being categorized as rapists.

      2. anonderella*

        woops, took too long. This is NOT ok. They can have bro-time off the clock – at work, they need to act like civil people who want to support their team. This is incredibly selfish of them, I am so sorry you have to feel this way. It’s one thing to want to have a particular culture at a workplace, but that absolutely canNOT come at the expense of diversity. They’re not even being sneaky about this.

        That said, it sounds like you DO have a choice to go – you’ll just make people less comfortable than they would have been. But I’d err on the side of making awful people who I don’t care about feel less bro-tastic, doing a damn good job at the trade show, and continuing on with the knowledge that you work with little boys – and look for a new job.
        If you boss/big boss knew that you would leave (not that you actually are planning/wanting that) over this, would he change?

        1. leftout*

          When my supervisor and I had a discussion about this last week, it was him telling me “this is the plan, and you’re staying elsewhere.” My choice was to say it’s okay and let them do it, or, I think, force their hand and make everyone stay at hotels. It was like, “Can you be cool with this, or are you going to be uncool?”

          Within this group, I’m really valued — told I’m excellent at my job, I learned the ropes really quickly and excelled. Not that I’m irreplaceable, but it would take a heavy search and a lot of time to find someone who could perform at my level. I’ve been lightly thinking about leaving — no raises here, not even cost of living, among other problems — but it’d be hard to find a job in my field. I’d likely have to try a new, related line of work.

          1. Natalie*

            “Within this group, I’m really valued”

            Not that valued, apparently.

            This is sex discrimination, pure and simple. Aside from the Airbnb part, it’s rather the old fashioned kind, too – people used to have business meetings & dinners in men-only clubs. If you feel comfortable pushing it, you will probably need to be more direct and get comfortable with letting it be awkward.

            But, it’s 100% okay to decide that you’re not going to fight this battle, for whatever reason. If it were me, I’d look for another job. Your boss sounds like an asshole and without raises, you are actually making less money every year.

              1. Gaara*

                Yeah. And they’re expressly excluding you from this kind of team-building activity that you want to participate in because of your gender — because it makes them uncomfortable. And if you get upset, they make you the bad guy who can’t just be cool.

                This isn’t just illegal, and it’s not just bullshit — it’s also likely to be career-limiting. You *are* missing out, and even if they think highly of you now, the more you miss out on this stuff, the harder it is to maintain that position when others are getting these opportunities to connect that you’re not.

                I would definitely be looking for a new job.

                1. OhBehave*

                  She stated that it would be difficult to find a job in her field. Even if she did, how could she know that the same thing wouldn’t happen at the new job?

            2. AnonAnalyst*

              Yeah, I would probably look for another job, too. My concern would be: even if you win this battle and force the boss’ hand, are you actually getting a fair shot a this company compared to your male coworkers? Or are you going to be continually passed over for opportunities so he can give them to his “bros”? Especially in a small (mostly male) company with no formal HR… there might not be many controls or oversight here.

              I honestly would probably still fight the battle because I’m not usually able to walk away from righteous indignation like that (just, are you kidding? REALLY?). But I wouldn’t be able to work there long term because I would always be wondering if my work actually mattered or if I would constantly be spinning my wheels in that company with no chance of advancing.

          2. Temperance*

            I’m trying to be gentle, because you don’t deserve this, but I don’t think that they’re valuing you. They’re discriminating against you solely because you are a woman.

            This isn’t just about a cool party house that they aren’t inviting you to. This is about critical, career-advancing opportunities that you’re being denied. This is about sexism, which is unfortunately rampant.

          3. NACSACJACK*

            I’m glad I read through the comments before responding with my suggestion. What you describe here gives me pause to put forth my suggestion which I will do, but here are my concerns:

            1) The person objecting isnt your boss, its the big boss, the boss that can make or break your career.
            2) It’s a bunch of guys getting together in a house, sounds like they have a “good” or “rowdy” time and dont want a female around (ummm, employment is not just for men anymore people)

            My suggestion with a pound of salt is this: Can you get a nearby AirBnB and participate in the evenings but have your own retreat?

            And frankly the idea of doing an AirBnB on the company dime just frightens me. With hotels, you have an expected standard. With AirBnB or Homeaway, no govt oversight, personal property, you could walk into a nightmare or be left with nothing if someone decides to scam.

            1. Gadfly*

              You hear about the big Oakland fire? I nearly rented there from AirBnB for a week when I was relocating and looking for an apartment in February…

        2. GigglyPuff*

          After seeing that you don’t really have an HR, I second anonderella.

          I wasn’t quite sure from what you wrote if you could push back or not. But I would probably go with the approach of when it comes up, start making comments that make it obvious you’ll be staying with them….but actually no, that probably wouldn’t work since your boss has already asked. Not sure how to push back, but I think you should.

    9. Alex*

      I have read a few posts here where the woman is having the opposite problem. The posts would basically go like~ my male coworkers are planning to stay overnight at a secluded place and I am the only female going. I feel creeped out so what do I do?~
      Perhaps they don’t want to creep you out or they are worried about offending you. If that is the case then one way of looking at it is that they are at least being conscientious of how inviting you a log may be perceived by you. However, I can’t say I am a big fan of this line of thinking if this is the case. They should ask you how you feel instead of just assuming how you would feel especially on the basis of your gender.

      1. SophieChotek*

        This was my thought too. On the principle it — I agree, it sounds like gender-based discrimination (if I understand it correctly) and the OP should be included, no question.

        I couldn’t tell from the letter if the OP would be offended/uncomfortable if there was a lot less (no?) “shop talk” or “business talk” outside the conference when at the house. Like if the guys did do all those (stereotypically “guy” activities one hears about)– as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, potential cheating on significant others, college-frat like parties, lots of off-color jokes, lots of drinking, etc. — Not sure if one could argue that is not appropriate for outside trade show work gatherings?

        Like Ann Furthermore wrote, the single hotel room might appeal – time to unwind, etc.
        But I do get the concern about lost-shared-bonding opportunities.

        1. sarah*

          But wait, why would people be allowed to make sexual jokes and drink heavily at a work-related event paid for with work money?? This is still work and you are still protected from a hostile work environment. (P.S. Not all dudes like to hear work-inappropriate sex jokes either!)

          1. AnonAnalyst*

            I know! I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask people not to do those things during a work event (which a BUSINESS TRIP is). Most people manage to avoid doing all of those things (even during business travel!) just fine, so I’m not seeing how acting in an appropriate manner for a professional environment is a big ask.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            Yeah, this frosts me.

            A family member had to go to a convention for a professional group. She came back totally disillusioned with the entire arena. Drinking and drugs were the number one thing. Most people showed up to lectures and events stoned/drunk out their minds. The fact that they were supposed to be getting professional development was a mere blip on the radar. It was not long after that, she quit the field. Things were way out of hand and this was supposed to be work.

      2. Temperance*

        100000000% disagree.

        She has made it clear that she wants to be part of the team. They are excluding her. They first tried to mean-girl her out of it, and this year, they expressly told her she wasn’t included. F that.

        Events like this should simply *not* happen unless all are included. Point, blank, period.

        I know of what I speak: at my last job, my male peer was going against company protocol to arrange happy hours and lunches with our clients, excluding me because, and I quote “our clients are all married men, Temperance, so they can’t go out with you” and he said it was fine because he was developing business. So I threw a torpedo into his reputation by informing our Grand Boss, who I am close to even now, 8 years later. Grand Boss put a stop to that right quick.

        I don’t care about being liked, though, and frankly, I wasn’t in a situation where it was me vs. a bunch of men.

        1. leftout*

          You sound like a badass; let me sit next to you.

          Like you said, I really do want to be part of the team. That’s part of why this weirdly hurts from an emotional standpoint!

          1. Temperance*

            Thank you for the lovely comment. Honest, I think YOU are the badass here! Being the only woman on an all-male team can be really, really isolating and difficult. I’m only the way I am because other women have had my back along the way.

          2. Ann O.*

            There is NOTHING weird about why this hurts. You thought you were valued as a member of your team, equally and without gender bias. Now you’ve found out that’s not the case. This revelation puts you in a difficult position because you are outnumbered and because life is not fair. Your company is doing something very wrong–discriminating on the basis of gender–but it seems probable that any choice easily available to you will hurt you more.

            I wish I had good advice. I wish I knew of a great script that you could take to your boss that would solve the situation. Sadly, I don’t. :( But I can offer validation that you are being wronged; it is normal to be upset.

            Honestly, I would start quietly looking for another job. This is likely the tip of the iceberg.

      3. LBK*

        They should ask you how you feel instead of just assuming how you would feel especially on the basis of your gender.

        Not only should they do this because it’s ethically right, it’s also legally required. It doesn’t matter if they think they’re doing it for good reasons or because it’s what she would want, it’s still illegal.

    10. GigglyPuff*

      To be perfectly honest, if you know they’re talking shop without you, and you’re comfortable doing this, I’d go to HR and let them know what’s happening, and ask for their recommendations on what to do (versus coming off as complaining).

      1. Liane*

        Maybe it was after your post, but OP has said her employer doesn’t have an in-house HR, & so is not sure who she can take it up with to get this straightened out.

        OP, have you actually straight out told your supervisor, boss, &/or BigBoss, “The company requiring the only woman on this trip to stay elsewhere might put us afoul of the laws against gender discrimination”? I know I wouldn’t want to have this conversation, but that might be your best bet. Heck, say it in the next team meeting as well.

        1. hbc*

          At the very least, “I’m afraid this looks like gender discrimination. Do you want to check in the [HR company] to make sure we aren’t going to get into trouble with this?”

        2. leftout*

          I feel like I’m in a bad position to do this: I already said I was fine with them doing it (though, again, I felt pushed against a wall to do so), so to them, it would appear SUPER out of left field, right?

          Our company culture is also pretty casual, so this would do some serious damage to me and my reputation. Just another reason I felt pressured to say I was fine with it.

          1. been there*

            I worked at a company once with a similar culture, and I was similarly the only woman on a team of men. I put up with a lot of gendered crap for a long time because I was afraid of the damage to my reputation if I ‘made a big deal out of nothing.’ One of my coworkers eventually crossed a line I wasn’t willing to ignore so I did take it to HR. They handled it well, no one ever held anything against me, and I got a big raise soon after. I’d give your company a chance to prove that they are decent people before just assuming that doing the right thing will damage your reputation.

            1. Not My Circus, Not My Monkeys*

              Also, it’s the Big Boss that has the problem. He is treating your employment differently because you are a woman, that’s illegal discrimination. He should be addressing this from the point of how to include everyone. A B&B usually has individual suites with locks on the door. Rent out one of those versus a house on Airbnb and you’ll get the same effect and male employees that don’t want this environment on their business (and may feel equally obligated to go along with it) would benefit as well.

          2. Natalie*

            It’s completely okay to have changed your mind about something, or to have answered on the spot and then realized your answer was incorrect

            “As I’ve had a chance to think about the lodging situation we discussed yesterday, I realized that I am actually uncomfortable being left out of the networking and team bonding that happens when the men all lodge together. I don’t think it’s okay that I’m being denied that opportunity because I’m the only woman in the group.”

            2. leftout*

              Thank you. That’s great wording, and I really, really appreciate it.

              I’m going to take the weekend and think it over. I may come in on Monday and try this approach. I think the outcome may still not change, but I will have at least registered my concern — which they’ll hopefully keep in mind come annual review time.

              1. zora*

                I said this below, but also, I think being honest about the situation might help, too. Saying “you are putting me in a tough position here, because I don’t want to ruin everyone’s fun, but the end result here is that I’m being treated differently because of my gender.”

                Try to focus on being super logical, and removing any emotion about you being ‘bummed’ or ‘not okay with it’, because that’s not actually what the problem is. The problem is the facts of the situation and the illegality of it. But this sounds really hard, good luck!

                2. OhBehave*

                  That is a great response!

                  If nothing sways them, then make sure you get a rockin’ Air bnb. You can arrange to host a few get-togethers as well as the guys (this so sounds like we’re at camp).

                  Just remember that your efforts are not only for yourself, but for the next woman (who is in high school now) wanting to work in your field! You are breaking barriers.

    11. Mustache Cat*

      Ugh this is the worst situation. I feel so much sympathy for you, because if you complain or insist on joining the house, you’ll be seen as “uncool” and I’m sure there’ll be comments to the effect of “this is why she can’t be in the house to start with”. But it is really awful and unfair to let this continue.

      Long-term: I don’t think the attitudes behind this will go away, even if you get to join the house. Being included in the team shouldn’t be a prize you have to beg for. I can’t help but imagine that this will effect your career there in other ways, even if you feel valued now.

      For now: I’d be honest that you’d like to join. When the younger guys talks about how much they look forward to it, say something like, “That sounds like fun, I wish I could join!” You’re a woman, so unfortunately I’m guessing you know the tone of voice we have to say this kind of BS in: I’m-not-complaining-I’m-totally-chipper-about-it-I-just-want-YOU-to-be-happy! This will allow you to assess the attitudes of the other guys on the team to your exclusion. Do they all feel that you should be excluded, or is it just your supervisor? I feel like it only really makes sense, unfortunately, to push for inclusion if the guys on the team are cool with it. It sucks, but it sounds like you can only rock the boat so far.

      If you end up having to stay in a hotel by yourself, no one would judge you for engaging in petty revenge. Order the most extravagant room service you can think of on the company’s dime.

      1. leftout*

        Thanks for the advice. I think it’s just BigBoss who has a problem with it, and my supervisor was the one to deliver the message. I really don’t think the others care.

        I’m glad you understand the crux of the problem — I really felt backed against a wall when asked if I was okay with them doing it. Maybe I should have pushed against it and, as someone else said, be okay with some awkwardness. But it’s also hard because these guys have been good to me before. They hired me when I was in a tough spot, so I feel this sense of obligation to be chipper/cheery/fine with everything. Like a workplace version of the Cool Girl trope.

        1. Mustache Cat*

          It’s good to hear that the others aren’t actively excluding you. I do echo the other commenters in that it probably would have been better to be honest with your supervisor when he sat you down, but I 100000% understand why you weren’t. I probably would have done the same thing. It wasn’t a fair situation to be put in when you knew that BigBoss was against your presence. Your supervisor should have pushed back on it on his own, not made you bear the brunt of BigBoss’s effed-up thinking.

        2. zora*

          UGH! This whole thing is super crappy.

          Could you go with honesty and try to adjust the situation so that you are actually acting like a peer with these folks, and maybe that will end up creating that as the new reality? Like actually saying: “Listen, you’re putting me in a really tough position here making it like I can either be the ‘cool’ one, or if I am honest it makes me the bad guy who’s ruining everyone’s fun. But the end result is treating me differently because of my gender and that just seems like a crappy thing to do.” And see what boss says? Try to literally surgically remove any emotion or feelings out of it and just be super logical? It is sooooo much easier said than done, I know, but maybe it would work, and Boss would realize how it is and talk to the Big Boss about how it’s not fair and they should just let you stay in the house?

          I think I would either try that, or find a new job, if it was me. Because this is a self-perpetuating cycle, you will continue to be more and more out of the loop as they spend more and more time hanging out being gross in houses together. But wow, this is so tough. I’m so sorry you have to deal with this!!

        3. The Rat-Catcher*

          When people phrase questions as, “We’re doing X, that’s okay, RIGHT?”, I feel they have zero standing to act shocked or hurt when an answer gets changed.

        4. Cryptic Critter*

          How hard would it be to find a AirBnB with a separate suite for you? That way you are there yet not there for the ludicrous boy-stuff? I can see enjoying the informality of work chat and brainstorming after your trade commitments, but the reality is more likely they hang out in their boxers with a beer in hand. I would think that’s more the issue. Altho I hear the hysterical blindness wears off in about twenty minutes?

        5. Tau*

          They hired me when I was in a tough spot, so I feel this sense of obligation to be chipper/cheery/fine with everything.

          I admit I don’t know your situation but I still want to push back against this on general principle!

          Companies don’t generally hire people as a favour, to help them out or because they feel sorry for them. Companies hire people because they have work which they need someone to do. They hired you because they thought you’d be very good at that particular work. (Which, from what you said upthread, was indeed the case). It’s a business decision, not a favour, and you don’t owe them anything – especially not putting up with this sort of BS. Hell, from a different perspective you’re the ones doing them a favour because you chose to accept this job and do it to the best of your capabilities, you know?

          Seriously. From everything you’ve said here you are an awesome and capable person and your team doesn’t deserve you. Don’t make yourself smaller to please them!

          1. leftout*

            Thank you, the reminder is really helpful! It’s easy to get let personal thoughts cloud the more rational thinking of the workplace.

    12. Biff*

      You are right to feel left out, and don’t think for a minute that it has no impact on your work. I’m a good skier, and was not invited on the company’s mini-ski vacation, though other people, who hadn’t been on a hill in two decades, were. They knew what they were doing. It was reflected later in ‘lists’ that the company drew up when business turned sour. Those who had been given outside-of-work opportunities were all piled onto the ‘not critical’ list, even though some of us were the only people who did certain work.

      But, keep this in mind — you maybe don’t want to work for people who reward face time instead of overtime, dedication and ability.

    13. Merida May*

      You should take some time to figure out where this could be escalated to, because in my opinion it’s necessary at this point. They’re freezing you out based on your gender, and what’s worse, trying to press you in to giving them your blessing so they don’t have to feel badly about it. You’ve been doing a good job at letting them know this bothers you, that isn’t easy, but is there anyone above said boss that could hear you out? Your boss can’t be objective in this situation as he is clearly very invested in the outcome.

    14. sarah*

      Wait what? This is not just hurt feelings, the fact that you are the only female on the team means it’s a gender discrimination lawsuit waiting to happen. Go to your boss, but also HR. Sorry if it ruins their fun bro time, but…we’re not in the old boys club world anymore and that shit is not okay.

    15. Beancounter in Texas*

      Since it is BigBoss who is excluding you, if there isn’t anyone above him to which to appeal, and no in-house HR, I’m betting your outsourced HR might give you some freebie guidance on what to do, even though the company may see that as taking it “way too far.” If you’re not comfortable taking it to that level and perhaps seeking legal counsel, then you can either accept it, or leave, even though I know that means taking a job in a different line of work.

      To me, it looks like blatant gender discrimination. I think you have a good case (with a precedent no less!) if you want to pursue it legally. A consultation with an attorney may help you decide. Otherwise, I could only hope that all of the other guys insist on your inclusion to BigBoss or opt out altogether, all of them.

    16. Student*

      You’re right to feel left out, because you are being left out pretty explicitly.

      You are probably wrong to want to remedy this by inserting yourself into the housing arrangement, strictly from a “what’s in your personal best interests” angle and not a fairness angle. They are planning to do things they don’t want you to see – there’s a big behavior range that may cover, but every single bit of it is unprofessional and you know it. It may even be openly harmful to you. If you join in their reindeer games, you are not going to benefit from doing so. It’s doubtful you’d even have fun on a one-time basis, given that they seem to want to make you feel as awkward as possible even being int he house. They will think less of you than they do now, and they obviously don’t think much of you as-is.

      Your best bet is to look for a new job. You aren’t valued here; you’re viewed as the spoil-sport mom for a bunch of metal juveniles. Find someplace that values you for your talents and doesn’t view you as an interloper based on your gender. The harder you fight this, the more entrenched they will get in their spoilsport-mom view of you, and the more they will view you as a threat to be neutralized by other means. You have no winning moves, so go play somewhere else you can win. You could try to fight the sexism by involving HR, legal options, etc., and maybe drive up the cost to them of being jerks, but it won’t fix the culture or salvage your career prospects here, you probably won’t win, and it’ll absolutely make you feel like much more of a pariah than you do right now in the process.

      1. Anoctopus*

        Frankly, if I were in this position and I thought they DID value me as an employee, I’d leave, and call them on it explicitly in the process of resigning, when I had an offer I was able to accept. Preferably with both Boss and Big Boss in the room, I’d say:

        “To tell the truth, I’ve really liked it here and I didn’t want to leave. But you put me in an impossible situation with the whole AirBnB thing… either I could accept illegal discrimination which was going to harm my career prospects, because that kind of bonding is generally influential in who gets the best assignments or opportunities, which is why it’s illegal to leave women out of it in the first place; or I could speak up about it and be perceived as the spoilsport who was killing everyone else’s fun, and that would *also* eventually damage my job prospects, since in a small place like this, being liked matters a lot. Either way, once you’d set up the situation and made it my problem to either accept discrimination or be the troublemaker, there was no way I could win.

        “Which is honestly why they have antidiscrimination laws in the first place… so women will be protected from having to be put in this kind of no-win position. Now that I’m in it, I just don’t see a way forward for me here anymore. I’m sad about that, because I’ve really liked working here, but that’s the way it is.”

        Hopefully, losing an employee they value might make them think a bit. It’s not your problem at that point, but it might make them wake up and change their approach the next time they’ve got a woman working for them.

        They might, of course, apologize and offer to do things the right way going forward. Which is nice and all, but has most of the same problems as accepting any other counteroffer (which is what it’d be, just not in money). Gratifying to hear them offer, but not a good idea to accept.

    17. sniffles*

      wasn’t there just a question about a woman NOT wanting to stay with the guys on a trip becasue she was concerned that the men were going to be up to some hankypanky with the female staffers? Hot tub, bring your bathing suit, etc?

      AirBnB is great if it’s a bunch of friends getting together before or after the conference time for vacation time but for the actual conference? Everyone should be at the hotel so they can mix, mingle & network with people from other companies.

  13. Reg commenter anon for this*

    For people with chronic pain diseases (arthritis, lupus…diseases in that family which affect your everyday lives really strongly) – how does that affect what jobs you take? Have you ever passed on a job because it just seemed like it would take too much out of you?

    I’m asking because I have an employee who suffers from something in this category and I’m starting to be convinced that we can’t modify the job in a way that she can make it work. I feel horrible about it and don’t want to have to let her go but I’m wondering if it’s possible that there are jobs she just can’t do while also dealing with a lot of pain, medicine management, side effects, etc.

    It’s a desk job, nothing is physically required except being there every day, but coverage is important and she’s constantly missing the beginning of the day, taking more sick days than she accrues, flaking out on assignments when she feels ill…whenever something like this happens she blames being sick which makes me really hesitant to push her any further, but this job can’t function without someone there 90% of the time and I’m at my wits end. Any advice?

    1. NW Mossy*

      Definitely sounds like something you should discuss with HR (assuming your org is big enough to have it). Part of their job is understanding the rules around “reasonable accommodation” and helping you determine if it’s even possible to modify a particular role such that someone can reasonably do the work that needs doing. They can help assess if there are other roles available where her restrictions don’t make as much of an impact and/or guide you on what to do if that’s not an option. You’re not required to keep her in this role forever if she can’t perform the job functions.

    2. Mononymous*

      Mine isn’t exactly the same (autoimmune instead of chronic pain) but I specifically chose a job that is not tied to a physical location. I’m a programmer, so as long as I have a work laptop and an Internet connection, I can do my job effectively.

      As much as I empathize with your employee, I know that there are some jobs that I simply cannot do. I once turned down a call center job when I was desperate for work because I knew that scheduled/limited bathroom breaks was just totally out of the question for me. I’ve been having difficulties with my health so I work remotely full-time right now, with the blessing of my boss, and I absolutely won’t take a non-remote job until I am in a different place health-wise, even though I have worked in the office plenty before and I’m sure I will again in the future.

      Unfortunately, it sounds like your employee isn’t physically able to hold down a butt-in-seat job, at least not right now. That isn’t a judgment against her for being sick, or against your company for what work this role needs to be able to do–it just isn’t a match for this particular employee right now.

      As for advice: talk to her. Be honest with her that you have concerns, and ask what she thinks about those concerns. Are there any other roles in your company that she might transition to, that don’t require arriving at a certain time? If not, you may need to turn the conversation to transitioning her out of the role. It’s hard, but she is probably also stressing out about not getting her assignments done and missing work, and the stress surely isn’t helping her health situation any. Be kind when you speak with her, but also be very clear about what the company needs, and let her decide whether she can meet those needs consistently or not.

      1. Mononymous*

        Also, yes, definitely involve HR in all conversations and decisions for guidance on those tricky ADA/FMLA rules.

    3. Jules the First*

      I’ve never passed on a job for health reasons because I’m firmly of the ‘suck it up’ school of thought – once I’ve committed to a job, it’s on me to make it work and my chronic illness is no more an excuse for not delivering than having, say, a cat who pukes on the carpet 30 seconds before you leave the house, or a toddler who throws tantrums if you get on the 7.26 train instead of the 7.32 train. That said, I do try and manage the quantity of travel my job requires, because it’s difficult both logistically (because of my illness) and emotionally (because of past travel trauma). So I guess my answer is “it depends”: in general, a chronic illness is not an excuse for underperformance, and yes, there are some jobs that simply can’t be modified.

      I want to say that this mismatch you’re experiencing is less about her illness and more about the fact that her illness is not being effectively managed by her medical team – and while neither of those is your problem, have you explored adjusting her schedule to a later start time (if she frequently can’t manage the original start time but is fine later in the day), or turning it into a jobshare where you drop her to, say, two full days and three afternoons a week and get in a return-to-work mum or something for two or three mornings a week, so you maintain coverage but she doesn’t lose her job?

      Another thought – is the problem that she’s not physically there, or is the problem that she flakes on assignments and the work doesn’t get done when she’s not physically there? In the former case, you may be right that you can’t adapt this job to accommodate her needs; if the latter, then you need to be really explicit with her that while you’re prepared to work around her illness, she needs to be absolutely committed to getting the work done, whether she’s having a good week or not, and that if her productivity doesn’t improve you will have to let her go.

    4. Non runner*

      I have chronic migraines with intractability (basically a constant migraine that medication can’t manage fully), so I’m not sure how directly applicable my experience is. However, I fall under the camp of suck it up, buttercup. At least until I’m not safe to drive.

      1. A Day at the Zoo*

        I have had RA most of my life and have been blessed to be able to mostly manage it with low level pain meds(mostly OTC). However, I have seen a lot of people who are much more impacted. Could the issue not be the job itself, but her commute? Most days I would be able to stand on my feet for a period of time to take public transportation; other days not so much so I may need to wait for a train or bus with seats. Approaching her honestly about the impact of her sick days and late arrivals and how to address that would be a huge kindness.

    5. Soupspoon McGee*

      I’ve been in her position. I made sure to work with my boss and doctor to craft an FMLA plan to put me on a reduced schedule while I recovered from a flare, and my boss was really good about making sure I didn’t go over my allotted hours. So I suggest you work with your employee and HR to figure out whether it’s more reasonable to have her in a 70% position or 50% position, for example. Then figure out if you can function with her at part time, possibly with another PT person on board, if she can work elsewhere in the organization, or if she simply can’t be accommodated.

      Secondly, do NOT think of her as “flaking out” on assignments due to illness. The last thing I wanted was for my boss and coworkers to think I was a flake, so I pushed myself far too hard and beat myself up when I couldn’t do an excellent job. Think of it this way instead: Either she’s a good worker who lets you know when work is too much, or she’s not a great employee. Look at her other actions and work–is she as reliable and capable as she can be, or not? Does she give you enough notice when she’s not going to complete something? Is she a good communicator? Is she conscientious?

        1. AVP*

          Well, a few times she’s just flat-out forgotten to do major parts of her job or specific tasks that she promised the company owner she would do, and the only reason she gave was “oh I totally forgot about that!” In a position where that kind of thing can’t really happen more than once every few months, but it happens every week. So maybe those weren’t disease related but I guess I was trying to give her the benefit of the doubt on them, because if they’re not then it’s a bigger problem.

        2. Biff*

          I disagree. You can still have a major illness and behave poorly and flake on people. Someone who says “I’m sick” when asked why her job isn’t done isn’t handling her illness properly, and is definitely acting flakey.

    6. MsChanandlerBong*

      I can empathize with both of you. I have an autoimmune disease, and my pain is usually worse at night. So if the pain is so bad that I can’t sleep, I have a hard time getting going the next day. I can see why she might be late/have trouble getting things done in the morning. But, flaking out on assignments is cause for concern.

      Do you have any schedule flexibility? If so, starting a little later in the day might be helpful for her.

      Personally, I had to give up on working outside the home. I am extremely fortunate that I have a skill people will pay me to use while I sit with an ice pack on my knee or a heating pad on my back! Before I started working at home, a doctor told me to quit my job and file for disability because my health was too precarious to try to work a steady job. When I am able to work, I excel. But every time I took a job, things would go great for six or seven months, and then I’d be hit with the need for surgery or an illness that was so bad that I used up all my PTO and missed too many days of work.

    7. Biff*

      Ugh, I was actually coming here to ask this kind of question, albeit about mental illness. But to answer your question:

      I have a couple of chronic conditions that impact my ability to work. About once a month, I have a really bad day, and I have to stay in bed. That usually means about 6-9 sick days each year from work (since some of those bad days will happen on a weekend or holiday.) If it happens on a low-key day at work, I can often just go in and muddle through. That said, I’ve never found that there’s a job that is available to me that really doesn’t work with my condition. There are jobs out there, just not ones that I could get without training.

      It’s good to note that my condition doesn’t cause pain the way that many chronic conditions do.
      BUT, it’s not very predictable. I can go months without a bad day, and then I can have 4 or 5 right in a row. I know some of my triggers, but they only trigger problems 60-80% of the time. So they may not actually be the triggers. I don’t know. The lack of predictability is tough, and in some ways makes me resemble your employee.

      But I’ve never used my condition to explain away work that I ‘flaked’ on. But then again, I’ve had my problem since I was 11, and I’m now in my thirties. I’ve had a long time to figure out how to get things done in spite of feeling bad or having joints that don’t want to work that day. If your employee is new to her chronic condition, she may not have much in the way of coping abilities yet. If that’s the case, I’d recommend asking her to commit to a part-time schedule, and hiring another person part-time for about 6 months. If your employee has had it a long time, it seems likely to me that she either never learned good coping skills, is experiencing a flare-up that she feels like she should be able to manage and can’t, or has always used her condition as an excuse. She might just be in total denial, I guess, too.

      People who are handling their condition well will usually be able to give you an outlook for a few days, maybe even a week. They will warn you of unpredictability and will tell you what they plan to do if a flare happens. Something like this: “Okay, I know that the Brady Project is due on Friday this week, and that we’re almost there. I need to clean up the photos we took, fancy-up the graphs and figures, and then format the whole document. I haven’t had a flare up in a while so while I think I’ll be good, I’ve already asked Sal to have some room in his schedule after Wednesday if the worst happens.”

      To answer your other question — yes when you have a chronic condition, you should be aware that there are jobs you can’t do. HOWEVER, a lot of chronic conditions come with an element of unpredictability, and when you don’t have a lot of training you’ll find that the unpredictability kills your ability to get a low-level job, since most of them really just need warm bodies. Your employee may have no other choice than to go for jobs that don’t play well with her condition.

    8. Temperance*

      It sounds like this might not be the right job for her. A receptionist, for example, needs to be at his/her station. That’s the basic requirement of the job, and the most important.

      1. Lissa*

        Yeah. It sucks, but not everyone can do every job. My disability means I can’t drive, which lets out a lot of jobs for me. I wish it wasn’t the case, but them’s the breaks I guess.

    9. Spoonie*

      I’ve had a chronic pain condition for a number of years. In addition to the actual pain factor, my other issue is medication changes — sometimes a medication starts out well and then maybe two months in everything starts going down the toilet. I’ve finally gotten slightly better about listening to my body and recognizing those changes. If your employee is new to having a chronic condition (or in denial, or tired of dealing — which I’ve been there too), she may not be realizing the impact she’s having. She may even think she’s covering/dealing with everything well. I’ve certainly ensured that I have a specialist in my back pocket that can help me manage my health issues.

      I’m one of those “fake it ’till you make it” types, so most people don’t know that it’s a Bad Day unless they know the signs. At Old Job, there was no ability to work remotely, which was sometimes a problem. With New Job, I could, which will come in handy. New Job also doesn’t require me to be on the phones and have to be customer-focused and “on” — another plus for Bad Days since my thought processing is sometimes slower and I generally feel sluggish.

      I would approach the conversation that you’re concerned about her health since she’s unable to do xyz and what can you do together to help her accomplish her job — is it moving her to part time, adjusting her hours, transitioning to something else within the company or… If you have an HR representative in your company, I would certainly loop them in to see what sort of reasonable accommodations are legally required and if they have any suggestions.

    10. AVP*

      Thank you all so much for this! Everything you’ve said has been really helpful. We’re an extremely small company with no HR department or FMLA so I am really flying blind here. I had planned to do a review with her on Monday so I’ll read all of these suggestions over in depth again before we speak and try to come up with a list of things to go over without it feeling like I’m prying too much into medical details that I don’t need to know. I think there’s a lot of different possible issues that may be affecting her situation, so my goal will be to try to come at it from a point of wanting to understand what we can and can’t do, what she might or might not need, and how we can make sure the fit is right all around. Again, thanks so much for sharing your experiences so candidly.

      1. Natalie*

        If you’re a super small company (fewer than 15 employees) the ADA doesn’t apply to you, although state laws could potentially be stricter. If you have fewer than 50 employees FMLA does not apply (again, state laws can differ).

        Since you don’t have an HR department, spending a few hundred dollars to consult with a labor law attorney.

        1. AVP*

          Yep, we’re that small (less than 15 people) but have always tried to follow these laws to the best of our ability because we want to treat everyone well.

      2. AcademiaNut*

        And I think it’s important to separate out the flakiness from the illness related absences. Forgetting that you were supposed to do tasks is not acceptable, and if your illness makes you more inclined to forget, there are ways to compensate (like a detailed to-do list). So you can address that as a pure employee not doing well enough issue.

        With the rest – that’s a lot tricker. Can she be shifted to a job that’s less attendance dependant? Can someone be cross trained to cover when she’s not there (without being unfair to their own job?) Part time with another part-timer to cover the rest might work, if her absences are predictable, although that brings the problem of finding someone who can work part time with irregular shifts.

        But in general, if an illness or disability means that the employee can’t do the core functions of the job, even with accommodation, then yes, it’s probably not a good choice of job. The problem is that jobs that tend to be more flexible and easy to accommodate things like unexpected absences tend to be ones that require more training, education and seniority, so they’re not necessarily an option for some people.

      3. AnonForThisPurpose*

        Not sure if you’ll catch this (a day late, sorry!) but a couple of things if you haven’t already considered them

        – Chronic pain stuff can make mornings a lot harder. If there’s any flexibility about who does the morning cover of a desk or that can be rotated, that might help.

        – Are there things you could do that would make her work space and the practical management of getting to/from her desk take as little energy as possible? (Saving more for work is the idea). This might be adjustments to her chair, desk height, lighting, or something like an assigned parking spot near the closest door to her desk.

        (I have chronic stuff though mine is more about exhaustion than pain, and having a predictable parking to desk routine makes things so easier. When I was at a job where I never knew where I could park, it added a lot of stress and exhaustion – sometimes I could park close to the building I was in, sometimes it’d be a 5+ minute walk (university campus) There were definitely days when I went “If I knew I could park close to the door, I could do useful things at work and hold down the desk, but if I have to walk further, I can’t manage.” because I was that close to the line on what my body could take right then. Especially in winter, with uneven footing/ice/etc. to deal with.)

        Basically, asking her if there are things that would help her be able to be at her desk, on time, ready to do the necessary work, and what that would look like, even if she doesn’t think that’s viable for some reason, might get you some ideas.

        – My last job hunt, I definitely passed on some jobs because it was clear the workspace and my body were not going to be a good match – delighted at my current job where I have a lot of control over background noise, lighting, and how my space is set up, and deeply appreciate it because it helps me do much better work.

        – I also passed on some jobs because it was clear they’d want a level of absolute coverage I wasn’t sure I could maintain (I currently end up calling out sick due to annoying body about every 6-8 weeks. I can usually aim for a day I don’t have meetings or other necessary stuff and that’s fine with my job. But if I don’t take the day when my body starts complaining that loudly, I’ll be much less able to do good work for a week or two, plus a bunch of negative effects on daily life stuff like making meals and doing minimal cleaning.)

    11. sniffles*

      Yes it can affect your job choices. I passed on a job because my office would have been on the first floor & the main offices would be on the third/fourth floor accessible by an outside stairwell only (no elevator) and my arthritis (knees & ankles, soon to include hips) just meant it would be unbearable for me.
      Morning are hard for me too so I usually get in ~10 am but stay until 6pm, per an agreement at hiring.

      (Might I suggest the book “Old Age – A beginners Guide” about someone with Parkinsons and how it has affected his life?)

    12. Thomas*

      I, for a long time, was in the suck it up category myself, but I have come to realize that one would not reasonably ask someone with a different illness to suck it up, so it isn’t fair on myself to do that. That said, I’ve not ever given up a job because of my chronic pain (but I’m still young… one never knows), but I certainly do ask for and find modifications where I can (asking for new chairs, changing positions, having my supervisors in the loop, not lifting things, etc.). For me this is helpful. But I don’t think it’s a good idea to dismiss it. Empathy is important in situations like this.

    13. AliceBD*

      I have an autoimmune disease that when not well-managed indirectly causes a lot of pain, limited mobility, and trouble sleeping. I am very fortunate that I had been here for a couple of years when it appeared, so that everyone knew me as reliable, etc. so they knew I really needed to be off. Additionally it affects my appearance greatly so it is very obvious when I am flaring. I am also lucky I don’t have a “butt in seats” job like a receptionist — generally everyone works out of the office, but I do have the ability to work from home if needed. And I used it when my condition was bad, or I would go home to work from my bed because I couldn’t physically sit in a desk chair for the second half of the day. But I also got done what I promised I would get done, and told my boss what I couldn’t get done. And I did nothing else in my life for several months other than go to the doctor and work; I gave up all outside work activities in order to have the energy to work.

  14. Clemmy Clue*

    You see the stories of over the top ways people have quit their jobs. I love the video of a guy walking into the break room/cafeteria (with his brother as a cameraman), turning on some epic music from a giant stereo, and ripping off his shirt to reveal ‘I QUIT’ written in Sharpie on his chest.

    So what’s the completely crazy way you’d quit if it didn’t completely burn any bridges of good will between you and your job? (Or if you’ve witnessed one of these at your job, would love to hear that too)

    Recently, my entire office left me alone to hold down the fort while they all took long holiday lunches. I wanted to print out a giant banner with the words ‘ F— This, I Quit’, hang it on the front desk for all to see, and walk out, with inappropriate curse word filled rap music left playing on loop from my computer. Would have been a lovely post-lunch surprise for them to return to.

    A friend on mine works in a company with big Skype meetings between various locations. She’d love to walk into one of these recorded meeting with a ‘I Quit’ poster and just parade up and down behind her bosses for the other Skype contacts to see on the screen.

    1. anonderella*

      Playing the hour-long version of Goodbye Moonmen from Rick and Morty on loop, with computer screen locked, on very loud volume after sending a company-wide email announcing my departure.

      this doesn’t seem enough – gotta think on this more.

    2. not so super-visor*

      Sorry, I think that you just come off as the crazy one when you do a dramatic “I quit” scene. Your former coworkers will just remember you as that wacko who quit by doing XX.

      We had someone in another department near mine send out an email to everyone in the building (big bosses included) + several high value customers declaring that she was quitting because everyone in leadership was a bully and didn’t value her. Then she pressed send and threw up all of the papers on her desk in the air and stormed out. Everyone else had to clean up after her and apologize to customers. Needless to say, we still talk about in the view of her being the crazy one.

      2. anonderella*

        no these aren’t supposed to be real things you’d do! I’m pretty sure we’re fantasizing, here, while keeping to the hypothetical rule “don’t burn bridges, but exaunt fantastiqe!”

    3. Xarcady*

      Many years ago, when I worked at a library under a toxic supervisor, I had visions of taking the card catalog drawers and flinging the cards into the air as I ran out of the building, shouting, “I’m free! I’m free!”

      More recently, and with a slightly less toxic boss who “fired” me on a regular basis and then told me the next day he wasn’t serious, just really annoyed with me. He fired me yet again, and told me I would work out the rest of the week and then be gone. Next day, “You know I was just kidding, right?”

      To which I replied, “No, I thought you were serious. I have other plans. I can only work to the end of next week.”

      He hit the roof, screaming “You can’t do this to me! The big seminar is in a month! The conference starts next week!” Then babbling offers of increased pay, more vacation time.

      Me: “Sorry. Grad school starts in two weeks. I was going to give notice tomorrow anyway. Can’t change plans now.”

      That felt good, I have to admit.

      4. Mononymous*

        OMG. Could you have filed for unemployment? You were fired after all!

        Your boss was completely bonkers.

      7. Artemesia*

        Oh I wouldn’t have mentioned the grad school. This kind of jerk needs to be left holding the bag and thinking it was because he fired you one too many times.

      10. sniffles*

        LOL – a worked in a venue where it was standard for the techs to get pissed, shout “That’s it, I Quit”, and them storm out. They’d be given a grace period of ~ 10 mins (long enough to get a smoke & calm down) and then return and everyone would continue on their merry way with the rest of the day.
        My (at the time) boyfriend did this one day and was surprised to find the door locked & that he was not allowed back in (the other techs hated working with him and the wrong upper echelon heard him quit & storm out and took him for his word!)

      11. Lissa*

        That’s amazing. I hate assholes like that. I hope he learns his lesson and never fake-fires someone again. Makes me think of jerks in relationships who break up with you and then want you back or didn’t think you’d take it seriously, etc. Sorry buddy, you tell me “this isn’t working out” and I’m gonna walk, not beg you to take me back…

    4. paul*

      I’d like to play some good ol Johnny Paycheck, Take This Job And Shove it, but only if it’s during a major meeting with the state for our contract work.

    5. Kelly L.*

      This was one I never did, but I daydreamed about it.

      I used to work at Taco Bell, back around the turn of the millennium when they were pushing their late-night hours with the slogan, “It’s late. Eat more.” My particular Taco Bell was right next to the fraternity houses in a party-happy college town, and we got so.many.drunk.people late at night, ranging from the goofy to the belligerent to the literally getting arrested for DUI while waiting in the drive-thru line. I was tired of them. I was also about to quit.

      I didn’t have the guts or the money, but I wanted to have bags printed that looked just like our usual ones, but saying “It’s late. Go Home!”

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I worked at a Dairy Queen where we occasionally got drunks. So sad how many times we’d forget to give them napkins, straws, and flatware in their orders before they drove away… (Usually to be stopped by the cops who were having coffee in the convenience store behind us. The best part was being on the border shared by three towns, so they could potentially get three tickets for the same offense.)

    6. Maria*

      LOL! I actually really like your idea.

      At my old job my boss was a real piece of work and I often daydreamed of explosive and hilarious ways to quit. I had already had a job offer so I was fortunate enough to be able to quit without notice. She was on one of her ridiculous tirades and my level of tolerance for her shenanigans was already through the roof. I interrupted her and said “I really don’t want to work here anymore.” It left her a bit stunned but I didn’t care. And then I just walked out. It wasn’t as explosive or hilarious as I imagined, but I felt so free in that moment and relieved afterwards.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        LOL. When I worked for Screamer/Thrower, he got himself all in knots one day, as usual, but this time he said, “Why don’t you quit?”

        In my normal speaking voice, I said okay. Of course Screamer/Thrower did hear me because he was busy screaming and throwing.

        I put my coat on.
        “What are you doing?”
        “I am quitting like you wanted.”

        When I left he was still screaming and throwing.

        I walked out feeling like queen of the world.

    7. Bossy Magoo*

      Well, this wasn’t exactly crazy, but it was so satisfying (to me as a bystander, and I’m sure to the person who did it). We worked for someone who likely has undiagnosed narcissistic personality disorder. My friend/colleague was working on a huge project and he was lying separately to her and to the people who worked on the project with her about what each side was saying, agreeing to, had an opinion on. So, for example, my friend recommended a launch date and gave her reasons why she felt that was the appropriate date. The boss told her that everyone else on the team felt strongly against that date and were pushing for this other date; and that he promised the rest of the team that he wouldn’t tell her that they said that (red flag). One day, in conversation about the project with a team member, he mentioned the date he felt they should launch and he said, “I’m warning you right now, if tries to tell you I didn’t agree with this date, he’s lying.” Apparently he had been trying to convince the rest of the team to agree to another launch date and when they wouldn’t, he just told her they all had. When she was in the senior leadership meeting where it was being discussed, sure enough the boss said, “we’re going to delay the launch date because everyone else on the team believes it should be delayed”. Some follow up discussion happened where he just kept telling lie after lie to her during this meeting and finally he told her something she was going to have to do to about the launch and she stood up and said, “I’m not doing anything because I DON’T WORK HERE ANY LONGER!” and walked out of the office, collected her things, and walked out of the building.

      She was a very professional person, but she had just had enough. She was probably the 3rd or 4th high level person at that company to resign that way – a very toxic place. But when she told me what happened, I was thrilled. Someone else who was in that meeting said after she walked out it got very quiet and then he went crazy screaming at everyone else in the room.

    8. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

      I work for a company with several corporate catch phrases that get bandied about by upper management constantly. One of these is “People First”. Since this company acquired mine last year, they have taken away almost all of the benefits and perks that made my job enjoyable in an attempt to cut costs drastically. No raises, title demotions, reduction in benefits, taking away work from home opportunities and bonuses – you name it, we’ve been screwed out of it.

      My fantasy quit is to walk into my Facility Director’s office (as she is very unsympathetic to our dissatisfaction and continues to act like this acquisition is the best thing that’s ever happened) and slap a piece of paper with PEOPLE FIRST MY ASS written on it in 52 point Arial Bold in front of her in lieu of a resignation letter.

    9. OhNo*

      I actually like both of my jobs, so I would never do this where I work now.

      But if I had the opportunity to go back to one of my old toxic workplaces… I would probably find a way to hijack the speaker system and replace the horrendous Xmas music with the “F*ck this sh*t I’m out” song on repeat. If I was feeling particularly cranky that day I might sing it at the customers while I boogied my way out the door.

      What can I say? That song speaks to me on a personal level.

      1. Ama*

        I wouldn’t do this at my current place, but when I was at my last job, I occasionally fantasized about jamming all the copiers and running toner out of all the printers, then walking out of the building. I had a ridiculous workload at that job (they literally turned my position into 2.5 jobs when I left) and yet if you’d asked my colleagues what I did, 75% of them would say I fixed the copier.

    10. Mustache Cat*

      My old company owned the dot-org version of their domain name, but not the dot-com, which was for sale. I often spent time daydreaming about quietly buying the dot-com domain and filling it with I QUIT in giant letters, before having it redirect to our competitor.

    11. HRChick*

      Worked for an admin support government contractor. It was miserable. The project manager filled positions with people from his church/family who were grossly under-qualified. Part of that helped me – I didn’t have to be a superstar to look good. But, it was very frustrating and very toxic.
      Got an email from someone sent to the whole government organization AND contractors, basically outlining the ineptitude, the favoritism, the under-qualifications, the nepotism. She finished by saying that assistant project manager was horrible and probably only got her job because she had a picture of the project manager with a goat.
      It didn’t help anything, but it was funny and embarrassing all at once.

    12. Wendy Darling*

      I would forward the incredibly rude, bullying, unprofessional emails my boss sent me to the entire company, including the CEO. And then take out a job ad using all of their keywords explaining exactly why they’ve run through 5+ teapot analysts in two years.

    13. MC*

      Not quite the same but I got fired (I already had a new job lined up) and refused to give my boss the satisfaction of getting upset. He wanted me to be upset. He was toxic. The whole place was. So when he told me that “this partnership is just not working out” and I politely agreed he was stumped. When he asked if I was ok I told him I had “other irons in the fire” and I’d be just fine, that made him sputter. Ultimately they refused to send my last check because they wanted me to come in and be yelled at. I refused, called the BoL and they took care of everything. Still… a dramatic exit would have been fun to act out – but it would have given him exactly what he wanted. Screw that.

    14. Elizabeth West*

      Not me, but at one old job, one of the consultants got into a screaming fight with the manager (who could be a real asshole sometimes). At the climax of it, she yelled, “I QUIT!” and walked out. Not as dramatic as some of these stories, but I silently applauded her for not taking his shit.

      1. anon in the uk*

        My team of five now play the lottery. We dream of wandering into HE and announcing ‘¥^< % you. We're off'

    15. James*

      The best I did was to go up to a manager and ask where we turned in our uniforms (company-provided, and it was a cashier job) when we quit. He panicked and asked “Are you quitting NOW?!” I said no, but at the end of the period we had scheduled. He relaxed and told me how to go through the process. I was in college, and got a job working in the department on a research program–the money was worse, but my manager understood that having a research project on my resume was MUCH better than having a menial job!

      I did have a friend who quit a food services job by informing them that he had been infected, by order of the Department of Defense, with a virulent disease that wiped out millions of people. The manager gave him a dumbfounded look, to which my friend replied “I just got a smallpox vaccine!” The manager responded with “GET THE [deleted] OUT OF MY KITCHEN!!!” :D (The friend was active military being deployed, and the manager knew about it. It was just a surprise for everyone that the smallpox vaccine hit so hard.)

    16. So Anon It's Not Even Funny*

      I would say the following things to one of my past managers…
      -Work/life balance is a thing most people strive for. It’s not normal to expect people to work 90+ hours a week.
      -Working from home is a thing people can do successfully. Flexible hours are totally okay in our line of work.
      -You ARE a micromanager. Trust your employees and the good ones will reward that trust. Get rid of the bad ones.
      -Having, and receiving treatment for, a mental health condition does not mean your employee is “unstable”.
      -If someone comes to you with claims of sexual harassment, believe them. Don’t ignore them, or worse, blame them for the problem. Do something about the harasser.

    17. The Rat-Catcher*

      I worked at Big Box Store and always fantasized about doing a storewide page. “Attention, office. Attention, office. This is Rat-Catcher and I QUIT!”

      1. SOMA*

        I always wanted to do this when I worked retail! Just get on the PA system and go ‘Attention, shoppers. This is SOMA. I’d like to inform you that our management threw out all the items donated to charity last year, forces employees to work double shifts with no breaks, and is otherwise a giant bag of [Censored]. Enjoy your shopping!’ And then just run out the door.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I hope at some point you can leak it on the net or news that this company threw out donated items.

          I am sorry you had to put up with that crap.

    18. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      Slightly different, but along the same lines… I was in the process of being fired/forced out of my role. My manager decided she wanted me out, so she basically lied about my performance to our dept. head and HR (being extremely careful that all examples she used were verbal or quantifiable) then put me on a PIP that included mostly subjective items (so that at the end she could just say I did not meet the requirements). There’s obviously a lot of back story here, but you’ll just have to take my word on the above. I saw the writing on the wall, and worked with HR (who was sympathetic, but also felt that their hands were tied b/c manager wanted me gone and dept. head believed her; HR believed me) to resign with enough notice to give me time to get a serious job search underway.

      I remained professional and cordial throughout my notice period, but I fantasized about all sorts of things I wanted to do or say to the lying manager on my last day. For the Game of Thrones fans: I shared an office with the manager and I so badly wanted to turn to her on my way out at the end of the day on my last day and just go “Shame, shame” at her (ala Cersei and the Shame Nun) and then shut the door and keep walking. I didn’t do it, but the running that scene in my head over and over again while working through my notice period was one of the few things that kept me sane.

      1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        Argh – that should have read “all examples she used were verbal or UNQUANTIFIABLE”

    19. literateliz*

      It’s been four years since I worked retail, but I STILL fantasize about flinging a bunch of folded denim onto the floor and screaming “I QUIT!!!!”

      I would never have actually done it because it would have been my poor coworkers who had to refold it and not the horrible manager I hated… but then again, if any of my coworkers had quit that way, I would have cheered them on (considering everydamnthing had to be refolded when we closed anyway).

    20. Girasol*

      There was one job I always wanted to just vanish from. My manager kept assigning me work he forgot he’d assigned to someone else. I’d get ripped up by whoever thought I was stomping on their territory, tell the boss, and he’d say, “She’s got it? Well, all right then.” Then he’d tell me to do my regular work (he never gave me any) and not speak to me for months before going through the whole exercise again. If I vanished my coworkers wouldn’t have said anything and my manager wouldn’t have noticed for ages. I wanted to be That Guy who everyone thinks is still employed so he gets paychecks for ages after leaving. It’s not very flamboyant as fantasies go but it woulda been great.

    21. JustaTech*

      I’m pretty sure one of my friends once quit via cake. Like, told his boss, went to a grocery store, bought a cake and dropped it in the break room. That place wasn’t just toxic but also super shady verging on illegal, so it wasn’t like he cared about bridges.

      I also had a professor once who accidentally quit via email. Prof was super pissed about something and send the whole department an email that ended with “I quit”. The department didn’t let the prof walk it back the next day.

      1. SOMA*

        So the professor was saying ‘I quit’ in a ‘Done dealing with this one particular situation’, not a ‘Leaving this job forever’, but the department forced it as an actual resignation? That seems a bit harsh.

      3. Susan*

        I seriously considered resigning from my last job by cake… I wanted to buy a cake that said, “Susan’s 2-week notice” and open the box at the morning meeting.

    22. Charlotte Collins*

      My dad once told me about somebody who won the lottery (1970s or early 80s). He hired a band to come in and play “Take this Job and Shove It.” I always thought that showed a certain flair. (This was in a skilled craftsman trade. They were an extremely creative group of people.)

    23. Tim*

      Everyone working at my location has a security badge they need to turn in if they leave, so any dramatic quitting usually involves flinging your badge at your boss and storming out. There’s a particularly terrible manager at one of the other companies we work with there, and it seems like the only way anybody quits is by throwing their badge at him.

    24. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I’m going to decline to share the details of most extreme example I know of, but suffice to say that for all the legitimate problems that existed with management in general and the management of the Quitter’s situation in particular, everyone IMMEDIATELY stopped thinking about management’s faults, because Quitter’s actions were so dramatic and so over the top. Furniture was destroyed, windows were broken, and a building was nearly set on fire. That’s not a good way to react.

      At my last job, a coworker was fired for something questionable he posted on his personal social media. (I don’t know the details, so I can’t opine on whether the firing was justified.) Boss called him in to discuss the incident/fire him. Once he realizes where the conversation is going he says, “You know what, f*** you and f*** this place,” slams her office door open, and proceeds to walk out the front door. (Heard about this secondhand from a coworker who was friends with Fired Guy outside of work.)

    25. Lissa*

      I like my job now but in the past, with retail/food service type jobs, I would fantasize about waiting until we got a particularly entitled customer and then, still in a super cheery voice, giving them “fuck you” answers. So somebody is getting really passive-aggressive and long-winded, I nod and smile sympathetically, then at the end say, “Hmm. I see your concern. However, the field of my fucks is barren, so bye now!” or just responding to some stupid “my sandwich didn’t have with tomatoes” with an over the top “OH MY GOD! Alert the authorities! We have somebody here who’s sandwich…only had THREE TOMATOES!” I know it’s all stupid and childish, but sometimes ..

    26. tink*

      When I was in college, a supervisor at my retail job accused me of trying to kill them in front of customers after I unknowingly offered them a slice of a food they’d said they enjoyed but that had something I didn’t know they were allergic to topping it. There were a lot of other issues with that supervisor, so looking back sometimes I wish I’d said something like “Since that didn’t happen, guess I’ll just see myself out” and then boogie out to the music our store ran on loop while giving them the double middle finger.

  15. 70K paycut?!*

    WWYD wise AAM’ers? I need help making a decision between two jobs. I’m keeping details uber vague to avoid outing myself but here’s the breakdown:

    Company A (new job)
    – Would require me taking a 70K (!) pay cut
    – Would require relocation to HCOL city
    – Is one of those jobs considered a “dream job” that I’ve always (thought) I wanted
    – Work is promised to be more meaningful and purposeful
    – Could be a great opportunity to have on my CV
    – Fed govt job under new administration with uncertainty as to direction of the agency (yikes!)
    – I still have student loans and, financially, this job would require major sacrifices
    – I’m single so I would have no secondary household income to rely on

    Company B (current job)
    – Pay is great
    – Love my current city (MCOL city)
    – Work isn’t terribly meaningful (to me)
    – Hours can sometimes be stressful
    – Private sector
    – Love my current lifestyle/able to save quite a bit

    With this very limited data – which option, on its face, sounds better? I’m at such an impasse…

    Or, anecdotally, has anyone out there took a job that required a major paycut? How did you navigate?

    1. Dawn*

      COMPANY B!!!

      This is a NO BRAINER. Do NOT take a 70K pay cut to move to a fed job (in, presumably, DC)!!!!!!! I live and work in DC, have a ton of friends in fed jobs, and if you want to “make a difference” do NOT get a fed job- work in the private sector or for a contractor instead.

      1. Dawn*

        Find something meaningful you can do in your free time to fulfil that aspect of your life. I absolutely PROMISE that a fed job, even in a sector you care about, will not give you the feelings of “meaningful-ness” that you’re seeking. Your time, money, and effort would be much better spent either volunteering, campaigning, or donating $$$ to charities that you do care about.

        1. AndersonDarling*

          Exactly what I was thinking. If you need more meaning in your “work” then write a blog or a book, or do training videos. Or find a new hobby like steampunk model trains.

          1. VintageLydia*

            Steampunk model trains sound amazing. Off topic but I’m gonna put that particular bug in my model train obsessed step-father’s ear…

        2. Pebbles*

          ^^^ THIS ^^^

          There are other ways to do something that’s meaningful to you, whatever that may be. And if you get to be feeling like your job is soul-sucking, you can still continue to look for a new position that won’t require so many sacrifices and still be paying off those loans in the meantime.

        3. 70K paycut?!*

          I’ve def stepped up my volunteering and have been trying to engage more with the community to fulfill some of these needs.

      2. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Agreed this is a no-brainer. It seems like the only thing pulling you towards A is the “dream” job aspect of it, which as we know from this site, is a false idea. A 70K cut is a massive, massive lifestyle change. A 70K cut changes your life enough that you may no longer get to do anything OTHER than your job.

        Take job B and find a contract or volunteer opportunity to meet the gap in finding meaning in your work. Plus you never know — you may find meaning in job B that you never expected to. That’s happened to me more than once before.

      3. MissDisplaced*

        Do NOT in no way take a 70k pay cut!!!!
        Money may not be everything, but jeez, that is too much to give up.
        Plus, “dream” jobs often turn out to be nightmares.

    3. AVP*

      B!! If you haven’t lived in a HCOL city before, this isn’t a good way to find out that you won’t be able to afford rent or the basics. Adding to it with the uncertainty in direction of the dept…sounds scary.

      1. 70K paycut?!*

        Hi AVP – I’ve actually lived in this exact HCOL city before while working for the feds (have also lived in even higher cost of living cities). I know, if accepted, this would require a radical lifestyle change wrt rent, basics, savings, etc.

      2. Biff*

        I lived in the HIGHEST COL city in the US.

        IT SUCKED. It’s not just rent. It’s everything. There is no cheap entertainment. Food costs trigger stress. You see yourself slowly slipping further and further behind your goals. Even cheap things cost more. The websites rarely adequately estimate how expensive it will really be. It’s just plain horribly stressful.

    4. NK*

      I would stay at B, no question. Alison has written about “dream” jobs before, I think they’re often not all they’re cracked up to be. If the job doesn’t turn out to be that awesome and you realize the work doesn’t feel as meaningful as you hoped, I think you’d have major regret about putting yourself in a more financially unstable situation.

      1. 70K paycut?!*

        Yep…ITA. That’s why I put “dream job” in quotes. It’s one of the jobs that I grew up thinking I might do and has been a professional goal of mine for years. Agency is like CIA, State Dept. or similar.

        1. paul*

          At the risk of politics, I’d run like hell from *anything* tied to foreign policy or diplomacy with a Trump administration in charge.

    5. fposte*

      I don’t think I could answer without knowing more about the relationship between pay and cost of living, eligibility for IBR or even PSLF, and what that pay cut takes you down to.

      It does sound, though, like there’s a ticking clock on your time at Company B–can you articulate what would make you leave it if not this, and what you’re staying for in the mean time? Like do you want to stay until your loans are X% paid or you have $X in your 401k? Because I think this might be a good time to think about when you’d look for Company C, too.

      1. 70K paycut?!*

        Hi fposte – this job would offer PSLF and I could go on a IBR plan (although, again, with uncertainties of new administration there’s no guarantee PSLF would still be in place for the 10 year forgiveness period).

        I’ve been with Company B for several years and my initial focus out of grad school was govt. It’s taken a looong time and 100s of applications to get this position. If I stayed with Company B my goal is to amass $XX in cash which I could use for emergency savings, investments, pay off some of the loans, etc. Right now I have about $30K in cash savings (but significantly more student loan debt)

        1. LadyKelvin*

          I still wouldn’t do it. If your student loans are forgiven after the 10 year period, you will have to pay taxes on the forgiven balance, all that year. And 70K is not pocket money. Try figuring out how much rent, etc would be in the new city, and how much your monthly income will be, then compare it to what you are doing now. I promise you, the job will never be fulling enough to make you feel like living paycheck to paycheck and not enjoying life will be worth it.

          1. Ella*

            There’s also the question of lost income. With PSLF, you still have to keep paying on your loans for the 10 years. If you add the amount you still pay, with the lower income that typically comes with PS jobs versus private sector, and also factor the uncertainty of this program perhaps being cancelled, it’s a big financial risk.

          2. The Rat-Catcher*

            I believe PSLF is exempt from the tax penalties of loan forgiveness. But that’s a minor point and I strongly agree with LadyKelvin to sit down and do that math.

          3. Anxa*

            PSLF is tax exempt.

            However, you have to be pretty confident that you’ll remain employed FULL TIME for 10 years. I know way too many people who studied to go into public service, only find part-time jobs in their field and never qualify. Or people who qualify only some years, then have to move, etc.

        2. Ella*

          I mean– if you’re seriously considering taking a 70K pay cut to do PSLF, why not keep your current job instead, and instead of forcing yourself into a pay cut, “cut” your income by 70K and save that money for your loans. If it turns out it’s too big of a cut, then since it’s your choice, you can just save less. But if you’ve moved and taken this new job, you’re stuck.

          1. Mononymous*

            Oh, this is good–stay at B, pretend you took the $70k paycut with regard to your lifestyle, and dedicate that money to paying off the loans ASAP. (Or even if not the full $70k, make it a big number for you. Big enough to be just this side of painful.) The loans will be gone before you know it, and then you can make different job choices in the future if you want to.

        3. NACSACJACK*

          I like your plan if you stay with Company B. Pay off your student debt, save enough money, then do what you want – wow you must get paid a lot right now. $70K would put me near poverty. But then this is the problem – you’re at the same cross roads I was – stay in a job I dont like just because I have student loans. Had I been smart about it (and had my parents been amendable to it) I would have lived at home, paid off my student loans, then taken a year off. Save enough to be financially able to do what you want even if you don’t get paid for it.

            1. Perse's Mom*

              Yeah, that would be the polar opposite of my current salary. Does that mean I would not be working for free but paying my employer for the opportunity to work for them?
              *dies a little inside*

    6. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Ok, so based on what you shared here, it seems super obvious that you should stay in your current job. The pay cut + the higher COL + the student debt + (and this is the big one, because money is just money and it sounds like you’re willing and able to trade money for meaning in your work) the uncertainty of the work in the context of a new administration = stay, no brainer.

      So, is there some other reason it’s attractive to you, that you haven’t shared here (or that we aren’t understanding from what you shared)?

      I took a substantial pay cut — about 40% — for the job I have now. It was incredibly worth it; my past job was a bad cultural fit and I was literally making myself sick with stress (and 50% work travel). Plus, I’m married, and my husband makes much more than I do, so the cut to our overall budget was closer to 15%, and we could afford it without too much adjustment.

    7. paul*

      Current job. Moving to DC or the surrounding area for a huge paycut when an agency doesn’t know what’s going to happen under a new administration? Hell no.

    8. Susan*

      Company B. For me, the stress of taking a pay cut and moving to a HCOL city would outweigh any benefits of meaningful and purposeful work (that may not be as meaningful or purposeful in reality as they are in the dream).

      At the same time, though, is Company A the only way to get that meaning and purpose in your work that you desire? Is there a compromise where you could find a more meaningful job that doesn’t require such an enormous pay cut?

    9. Emmie*

      Are there other benefits too? For instance, some loans allow for loan forgiveness after a period of time working in a federal job. You may also get into an income contingent repayment plan if your loans allow it. Will that offset some of your financial concerns? I don’t think it will, but it might. I wonder what percentage pay cut that would be. If you’re talking a 50% pay cut, that’s a lot. But, if it’s a 10% pay cut, that’s not so bad. Are there other intangibles to think of? Like, does the lower paying job offer more time off, lesser hours, life in a better climate (hello palm trees!), more post-employer career opportunities, or other quality of life enhancements? Ultimately, this comes down to what you value, what makes sense to your future goals, and whether the financial constraints are do-able for you. Good luck!

      1. 70K paycut?!*

        Hi Emmie – yep IBR and PSLF would be in play. Pay cut is more than 50% (!!) but lower paying job would offer more time off, a more flexible schedule and good exit opportunities to return to the private sector. Climate is a bit of a wash.

        1. Emmie*

          Getting an opportunity to work in a position you’ve always dreamed of, or held in high esteem is super exciting. It’s like the beer googles of job offers! Think with your excitement,but also with your logic and facts. It’s tough when decisions both have solid pros and solid cons. I am confident that you’ll make a great decision!

        2. MissGirl*

          What’s the worst that could happen if you take the new job? My practical side says stay, but you’re young and unencumbered. If there are good exit opportunities and you could easily get back to where you are then maybe take it. What’s being young for, if not taking risks?

          Are you paying on the student loans to keep them from accumulating? That’s big mistake people make; they let the interest accrue until the loan is unmanageable.

      2. H.C.*

        It depends on the type & size of the loan

        But for qualified student loans, if you are employed in government/nonprofit sectors and made 10 years’ worth of payments to your loans – the remainder of the balance is forgiven; furthermore, the forgiven amount is not considered taxable. More info on that here https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service

        However, I presume the commenter doesn’t have such a gianormous student loan burden that would be worth $70k cut now (let alone the mid-six figures if spread out over 10 years)

        1. NACSACJACK*

          I did a calc with the above using both a low income and high income. The Lower Income still had to pay more than the original loan amount and the forgiveness was still like more than 50% of the original loan. The high income had no forgiveness no matter the size of the loan.

    10. Jubilance*

      There’s no way I’d ever entertain a $70k paycut – essentially I’d make less than when I started my career and was entry-level. And in a high cost of living area on top of it? Nope nope nope.

      2. H.C.*

        I’m also semi-amused at the thought that, a few years ago, a $70k paycut would’ve meant I’d be paying my employer to work there…

      3. Liz*

        The only way I would take a 70k paycut is if it would literally save my life. If I were working at such a crazed pace at my current job and my doctor said, “If you stay on this path, it may kill you,” I’d do it.

        That is the only circumstance I could think of that would justify (for me) such a drastic shift.

    11. Ella*

      Um, company B. It sounds like everything is great except for your job, but I don’t see you saying that your job is really bad, it’s just not your “dream job.” What happens if you do company B, and it’s not actually as great as you think it was? Relocating is really expensive, and with a HCOL city it will be even worse. Find something fun to do outside of work.

      I’ve taken a pay cut before (17%) to get out of a job I hated, which was worth it for me. But it took about 5 years to remake what I was making before, and I had to live frugally (this was even moving from a HCOL to a LCOL city). So tread wisely.

      2. Overeducated*

        I actually did move for a supposed dream job a few months ago, and the job has really really not turned out to be what I had hoped. I was not in a well paid job before so my choice was very different, but…bureaucracy is a bigger barrier to job satisfaction than you might expect. That’s all I have to say about that.

    12. Trout 'Waver*

      The new administration (assuming you’re in the USA) and their political allies are focused on cutting government spending and programs. The general consensus is that it really sucks to be the newest guy at a job that has budget cuts. You’re usually the first one out.

      Those two things would make me very wary of taking a federal job right now.

    13. KellyK*

      Unfortunately, taking a huge pay cut, with a higher cost of living, to take a job that’s so very uncertain has the potential to be completely disastrous. That doesn’t necessarily mean “don’t do it,” because doing something meaningful can be worth a lot. But it does mean you’ll need to carefully consider how you’ll handle it if things don’t go well. Do you have friends or family in the new city? Do you have enough savings to cover all the moving expenses? How hard is it to get jobs like your current one, if you decide later that it isn’t worth it?

      It sounds like the main motivator for you is doing something worthwhile and meaningful. If the agency’s direction changes drastically in January, or you’re prevented from doing the work you want to do because of leadership changes, how will you handle that? Will that make all the sacrifices you’ve made to take this job feel wasted?

      It’s also hard tell what your stress level will be like in this job compared to the old one. If the hours are more reasonable, that could help, but a lot of the other things you mentioned are major stressors (the money, the upcoming shake-up, etc.). There tends to be a lot more job security for government employees, but that doesn’t take effect immediately (and might not be worth it if the job adds to your stress levels).

      The only solid advice I have is that choosing to stick with the higher-paying job doesn’t have to mean sacrificing your ability to do something that feels meaningful to you. If you end up staying, maybe look at your less meaningful job as something that funds the things that are really important to you—which could include donating to non-profits in the same field as the government agency. It might also include volunteering, if your schedule allows it.

    14. Jessesgirl72*

      There is a job related question on Dear Abby today, and the OP referred to a potential job as her dream job. A commenter gave what I thought was really good advice- forget the idea of a dream job. Anything can look like a dream if you’re unhappy in your current one, and you never really know if you’re going to like something until you do it.

      Except that an unstable government job that required me to take a $70K pay cut (In DC? Seriously) would not, in any way, be a dream job.

      I definitely am in agreement with those who think you should find meaning and purpose in activities outside of work, if your work doesn’t provide them.

    15. Sled Dog Mama*

      As someone who is finishing their last day as contractor at a federal facility, You have no idea how different the government is from private sector. Do NOT take the job. It will not be as meaningful as you think

      1. 70K paycut?!*

        I’ve previously worked for the feds (before private sector) so understand the realities (good and bad) of gov’t life…

        1. Ella*

          It sounds like you’re really sold on company A, though it may not make sense to the rest of us. If that’s the case, go for it! But try to save as much as you can before the move, and also try to keep your contacts active in your previous profession, in case company B isn’t what you envisioned. Perhaps also try to do things like take on a roommate, or even better, live with a friend for a bit while you suss out if this is something that will work for you.

    16. AshK434*

      Company B for sure! I realize our priorities are different but this seems like no competition. I know doing meaningful work is important to some people, but unless the work you’re currently doing is completely unethical or morally shady, then I don’t see how taking a $70K paycut could be worth it. AND the new job’s direction is at the mercy of the new administration? Um, no thanks (apologies if that’s too political).

    17. MC*

      OH MY GOD – do not take a 70K pay cut. Are you insane? Volunteer, foster a puppy, donate time & money to be more meaningful. That is some serious bank to toss away and there is no guarantee that you will actually get benefit. There is no guarantee that this job will be there long term and no guarantee that you will like it. Work is not life, but work makes life possible.

    18. NoMoreMrFixit*

      I’ll second what the other posters have said. Dream jobs sometimes are anything but. Having spent bulk of my career in government jobs I found they tend to become soul sucking pits of apathy and lowest common denominators. Go with option B. The better pay will enable you to maintain a happier lifestyle and volunteering will give you the opportunities for making a difference.

      FWIW I found the gov’t jobs so life draining I’m now changing careers completely and will be looking exclusively at the private sector when I finish school in the spring.

    19. Ann Cognito*

      I took a 30K cut a few years ago, but it was for a much shorter commute (10 mins vs. 1 hour), more vacation time and a lot of flexibility. It was well worth it, and we barely felt the cut. But 70K – never, ever could I imagine taking a cut like that, even if I was in a toxic environment, which it sounds like you’re not at all. That much of a pay difference would make the “dream job” not a dream job for me!

    20. Jules*

      Don’t take a huge pay cut for a dream job. IF the job turns out less than what you dream, you just lost your ‘dream’ and your pay.

    22. Golden Lioness*

      I took an 80K paycut about 6 months ago….
      Let me tell you, I do not regret my decision, but it has been very challenging. There are some differences in my situation. I was working as a very highly paid contractor in oil and gas and with the downturn the contract leads were drying out. I was tired of the roller coaster and constant job- searching. I was also stressed by the high pressure and long hours. I did not need to relocate. I am also single with no kids (that actually helps a lot).

      After my last contract was coming to an end I applied to a job in a non-profit in healthcare. I was expecting and fully prepared to make less, and this job was wonderful from the beginning… I was not prepared for the low offer when I got it, but I was committed to get out of oil and gas.

      I love the place, love the work, love my boss and my co-workers! I did not have to relocate, but I had to refinance my house and rent a spare room in my house to absorb some of the hit. I am able to pay my bills and save a bit for modest vacations, but the cut has been a huge adjustment. I am much happier and less stressed to the point that my friends have all commented on it, but every time something breaks in the house or the car I really miss being able to “just pay it”… now I have to budget. I am no longer able to buy drinks or meals for my friends (loved doing that!) I am no longer able to buy expensive clothes or shoes, and I love that I go home at a decent time.

      Think carefully and go with your heart and do what you really want to do. There are no wrong answers here, either way you’d have a job. You can always change jobs or move cities later on if you decide to go for it and it doesn’t work out.

      Best of luck!

    23. Marisol*

      Here’s a way to gain some emotional clarity. Usually this is done face-to-face but maybe it will still work online. You’ll have to dialogue with me for best results though.

      So far you seem split down the middle, so I’ll do a coin flip to decide for you. I’ve got a penny in my hand that I’m looking at. If it lands on heads, you’ll go to company A. If it lands on B, you’ll stay with company B.

      Ok, I flipped. Are you ready to hear what the results are??

      Ideally you are still reading comments and can respond…

      1. Marisol*

        Ok, you didn’t respond, but the way this works is, I say to you, here’s what the result of the coin toss is, but before I tell you, I ask, “what do you hope it is?” and your answer is the clue to what you really want. This is something I learned from a highly regarded life coach named Michael Neill. Not sure if it translates in this forum, you might have to hear it in person.

    24. Girasol*

      Take it as proof that dream jobs are out there and wait for the one that gives you a $70K pay increase.

    25. Christy*

      So, I work for the government (have for 8.5 years) and I really do find my job meaningful. I love my job and I’m also confident I could get a $70k pay increase if I went to the private sector.

      It’s worth it for me to stay. I feel stable (even if the new administration feels anything but stable.) I’ll get a pension.

      I don’t know that I’d join the federal government right now, though.

        1. Ella*

          Yea. My bro is with HHS, and he said the climate was pretty bad right, with people worried about the new administration.

      2. Christy*

        It also depends on what the job is, what grade you’d be coming in under, and where you’d top out. Are you being hired under a 7/9/11 ladder? That would mean that in 2 years, you’d likely be earning $20,000 more (than what you started with) after two years. Maybe that’s tolerable for you.

        Is it a position that tops out at a GS-9? (Say, as a park ranger?) Then maybe don’t take the job, because you’ll never get back up to a high salary.

      3. 70K paycut?!*

        This is helpful! I appreciate everyone taking the time out to provide thoughtful comments! I have a lot to chew on and one of the reasons why I love this community.

        GS-9 with options to advance, agency is in national security arena

        1. Sophia in the DMV (DC-MD-VA)*

          My husband works in national security related agency and he says people even there are worrying about the new administration

    26. sniffles*

      I would just like to work in a job where I could contemplate a $7oK paycut…right now that’s almost double what I am being paid….

      1. Golden Lioness*

        Well, I am making about 45% of what I was before… so it happens. Sam job, different industry.

    27. Hester*

      I’ve done it and am glad I did it.

      I am a lawyer working for a federal agency. Many, if not most of my peers, came from large law firms, so we generally took paycuts of at least that much, and in my boss’s case, many many multiples of that. I think that is was worth it for all but a tiny percentage of people(that is, I have never met anyone who expressed regrets, but have to believe they are out there).

      I think you have to talk to someone inside about the agency’s history of hiring and RIFs, get a sense of day to day life to make sure you will enjoy it after private sector work (even keeping in mind you’ve done it before — certain govt issues can chafe the longer you’ve been in the private sector), and figure out whether/how you can transfer out if needed. In my industry, most of us are not lifers, and we recognize that we can make the money back over time, particularly because of the skills we acquire. But the job is meaningful (and fun!) and most people are thrilled to do it, despite the salary cut. It just becomes harder to leave that money on the table when the kids need braces, so people transition out.

    28. Chaordic One*

      It sounds like you’ve gotten yourself into a “cash cow” situation. If I were you, I’d milk it!

      You should continue to save quite a bit for your future, and if you want to do something meaningful seriously consider donating some of your time to a good charity or charities. And donate some money, too. There are a lot of worthwhile causes that could always use some financial support.

    29. NoTurnover*

      A few months ago, I took a 55k pay cut to work my dream job at an organization that is struggling to survive. I don’t regret it at all. But I still don’t think you should do this.

      How I think this is different:
      1. I was already working at this organization one day a week, so I had a very clear idea of what was required and what it would be like day to day. I had tested over and over again whether the “dream” was really a dream. (And the first three months have still been hella hard.)
      2. Since it’s a tiny place, I have a lot more influence on whether the organization survives. It’s a huge risk, but the risk is at least in the hands of myself and people I’m working with, rather than people who are making nationwide decisions. My job, as poorly paid as it is, can’t just disappear tomorrow based on the decisions of someone else.
      3. I don’t know your financial situation, but I had prepared for this cut for several years, saving up several hundred thousand dollars as a safety net for retirement and making some changes that reduced our cost of living.

      Good luck in your choice! I know how hard it is when your heart is pulling you in a direction that most people don’t consider practical.

  16. rosenstock*

    i successfully quit my job last week, and my last day here is the 15th!
    my boss is really angry/emotional in general but the conversation went surprisingly well.
    new job at bigger/better law firm starts on the 19th.
    thanks so much to AAM for helping me through this process!

    3. Alice Ulf*

      Good for you!
      I remember you posting that you were nervous about that conversation, so I’m glad it went well. :3

  17. E*

    I’m a junior in college who’s applying for internships for next summer. In interviews, is there a way to delicately ask how likely it is that they’ll give out full-time offers to interns at the conclusion of the summer (assuming high-quality performance)? This would be an important factor in choosing where to work, but I don’t want to come across as presumptuous.

    1. me again*

      You could ask about it historically… What % of your interns have become full time employees?

      I wouldn’t use that as a way to determine if the internship is valuable though. You could work the internship, get an offer but decide that you hated the company. Or they could be using this as a trial run and decide that it isn’t a good fit…
      Look at the overall experience you will have for the internship and see it as a stepping stone to bigger and better things regardless of whether or not it is with the same employer.

    2. J*

      I don’t think it’s presumptuous to be upfront with your question. They know (or, at least, they should) that this is something that a soon-to-be-grad is going to be thinking about. No one should be shocked by the question.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      You don’t need to be delicate about it. You can ask this straightforwardly in interviews: “Do you often hire successful interns on as full-time staff?” (You could follow it up — after they answer — with more details, like “This really is the kind of work I’d like to be doing, and if it ends up being a good fit I’d love to have the opportunity to stay.”)

      1. Michele*

        Exactly, it isn’t presumptuous. It is reasonable. One of the hardest things for me to learn was that I had to ask for what I wanted at work. You can’t wait for it to be offered.

    4. Shawna*

      Sure! This is a reasonable thing to ask. You could be direct about it in the interview, and just say, “Have previous interns gone on to pursue full time roles at your company?” or “Is the intern program used as a pipeline for new hires?”

    6. mskyle*

      I know at my company we’re very forthcoming about this – when we interview co-ops (similar to interns), we actively point out our employees who are former co-ops and even have them on the interview team when appropriate.

  18. Sherm*

    So, I know the sentiment is strong in these parts that office gifts should not flow upward, *but* I have a really awesome boss! She’s kind, supportive, and a great teacher. We have similar outlooks and senses of humor and make each other laugh all the time. I could easily imagine her as a friend had life introduced us in a non-work setting. Also: She has had a grueling year, both professionally and personally. (Her son had a complete psychotic breakdown right before she was to leave on her single vacation of the year. That’s just one example.) Last December, I gave her a card, and she gave me a ~$15 gift. Would a gift from me be OK this time around?

    1. Sigrid*

      Honestly, I think a card in which you write exactly why you love working with her, and why you think she is a great boss, would mean more to her. I’m of the opinion that that kind of communication means more than just another “thing” that you hand over. Give specific details! Hand write it! Then if she’s the type of person to do so, she can look at it whenever she needs a boost.

      1. Michele*

        This. That would be so touching and mean much more than an impersonal card. It can be darn hard to tell people how we feel, though.

      2. Nerfmobile*

        Yes, card with a thoughtfully written note. Earlier this year I was transferred from one manager to another. I hated leaving my old manager – she hired me into the company and I reported to her for 5 years (a rarity in my company), and she was really awesome as a manager. So I picked up a very simple flower arrangement at the grocery store (seriously $10), and bought a fancy card in which I wrote a long note about how I’d enjoyed working for her. 9 months later she still has that card tacked up in a very visible place on her cubicle wall (which she doesn’t do often). I know she really appreciated it, probably much more so than the same amount on a bottle or wine or whatever.

    2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      I have no problem with gifting upwards if you are doing it because you truly want to and not because you feel pressured

      1. Chriama*

        Yup. And if you have any other coworkers, don’ t let them know you’re doing it, and try to hint to your boss that this should be kept quiet. You don’t want her bragging about your gift within earshot of another coworker who now feels awkward about not having gotten you anything.

    3. Doe-eyed*

      For managers I like I do small thoughtful gifts. My hometown has a world famous bakery so I make a trip there and bring back little goodies that I know they’d enjoy.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Please don’t. It’s likely to make her uncomfortable.

      Write her a personal note telling her how much you appreciate her as a boss; that will mean far, far more to her than any gift.

      1. MsCHX*

        My friend manages a staff of 20 ish people and they buy her gifts all the time – Boss’ Day, Christmas, Birthday. She does NOT feel weird about it. lol. Should she??

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yes. Some of them are almost certainly doing because they feel obligated to (because they see others doing it), and there’s a power dynamic that makes it icky. People shouldn’t feel obligated to purchase gifts for someone with power over their livelihood, and managers should never benefit from the power dynamic in that way.

          And she absolutely should put a stop to the Boss’s Day nonsense.

          http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/outside-voices-careers/2015/10/12/4-reasons-bosss-day-is-total-bs

        3. The Rat-Catcher*

          My supervisor gets gifts for all the above-mentioned holidays. She never expresses discomfort to us, but I am reasonably certain based on an interaction last week that she feels it. I have the whole set of Harry Potter DVDs just laying around my house that I am looking to give away. (I now have the whole set on Blu-Ray and got it on Black Friday for next to nothing – also my DVDs have been used a LOT so I would feel sort of guilty selling them.) My supervisor expressed an interest in having them to give to her daughter, but she insists on paying for them. From that, I gathered that she probably doesn’t really like getting gifts from us, but feels like she would come across rude/ungrateful if she said so.
          (I opted out of Christmas for her this year due to budget issues.)

      2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

        Baked goods are ok though right? Like a little baggie filled with cookies and candy and a lotto ticket

    6. Sophie Winston*

      Think long and hard about it. I have a great employee, and I know they really appreciate the effort I’ve put into both training and general career development this year. Rationally, I know that if they gave me a gift (which I’ve said they shouldn’t and hope they don’t) it would be coming from gratitude rather than obligation, the theoretical “right place.” It would still make me very uncomfortable, especially if it was anything more than the most token of token gifts.

      A note expressing that, despite her personal challenges, she’s been a great boss this year by doing x, y and z would almost certainly be more appreciated.

    7. Jules the First*

      Pitching in to say that a note telling her pretty much what you’ve said here is the nicest gift you can give your boss. Having just left a job, I can say that the leaving gifts and drinks and everything were lovely, but the thing I will remember most is the heartfelt note from one of the juniors on my team (well, that and the unexpected message from a colleague I thought hated my guts, acknowledging that I’d really raised his game and that he’d miss having me around).

    8. AliceBD*

      I would stick with a card saying you think she’s great.

      I do give my boss a gift, but that is because I make break-and-bake cookies and give 2 each (in a little baggie with their name on it) to everyone in my extended department, so it would look really odd to not give her something and would make me uncomfortable to single her out like that. People in my department regularly bring baked goods to share with everyone, so this is just a slightly more personalized version for Christmas.

  19. AnitaJ*

    Advice for a new manager?

    I have one supervisee this year and I’d like to get her a small holiday gift. Target gift card? (That’s what my manager has always gotten me and I find it a nice gesture) Regular gift card? What amount would be appropriate? $30?

    Thanks for any input! She’s great, and I want to give her something tangible in addition to the feedback and guidance I try and give her on a daily basis.

    1. Emmie*

      Your ideas are excellent. A nice card telling an employee s/he does a great job goes a very long way. I’ve varied my gifts recently: organic dog biscuits for a person who was dieting and loved their dogs; cookie delivery; Harry and David delivery; gift certificate to favorite lunch or coffee spot. But, always looking for new ideas.

    2. Emmie*

      Oh, I’ve done $30. It’s out of my own pocket and not reimbursed. Once I get more employees, I’m not gonna be able to spend that much!

      1. AnitaJ*

        I like the dog treat idea! I’ll definitely use that. I don’t get reimbursed either, so it’s all out of pocket for me, but I think worth it.

    3. Sibley*

      I’ve gotten a card w/ $10-15 gift card to some place in the past. Starbucks, visa card, etc. Target is a good idea because you can get so much there. I don’t drink coffee, don’t like Starbucks teas, etc so that one is tough.

    4. Phoebe*

      Why not write her a nice note about what a wonderful manager she is and how much that means to you instead? It would likely mean a lot more to her than any gift card.

    5. BRR*

      If you know for sure she would use a gift card to Target or Amazon I think that’s nice (if not I would do cash). If $30 isn’t too hard on your wallet that’s a generous amount. Anything more and it starts to feel like a lot to me.

    6. MWKate*

      This was hard for me when I became a new manager – as I had previously been the peer of both people I was now supervising. I did a gift card to some place I knew both of them liked, and a small trinket that I knew they would like personally but was also related to work and our specific jobs. (We work in international teapot processing and I got them each a little snow globe for their desk with an international landmark.)

    7. FrequentLurker*

      I’m also here hoping for gift ideas for a supervisee – in this case, my assistant.
      He only became my assistant two months ago so I don’t know his personal preferences as well as someone I’d worked with longer, and I always struggle with choosing gifts for males who I don’t know intimately.

      He’s early-20s, has just recently become a dad, and I know money is a bit tight, so I wanted to give him something that is just for him and that maybe he wouldn’t use family funds to buy for himself.
      I am alternatively considering a Visa gift card, because although I’d like for it to be a personal gift, when things are tight, money that can be used anywhere can help with stress even more than a present, but I feel weird about giving what equates to cash at work.

      Further complicating matters, my personal budget for Christmas is tight also, due to recent family issues, so I don’t have a lot to spend and when the amount is right there on the gift card, that might look stingy.

      Can anyone help?

      1. Emmie*

        Your ideas are excellent. What are you doing for others? I wouldn’t want to treat him differently (i.e. The others get cookies but he gets a gift card). If you’re still stuck:
        – Lunch gift certificate
        – Some yummy cookies, special coffee, or his favorite snacks
        – Something for the baby (defeats the gift just for him, but is still thoughtful)
        – Public transit card
        – Something indulgent like a subscription to a magazine in his interest area (airline miles can be used for this, but you may not know him well).
        – Small gift card to lunch spot and say “have lunch on me”. You could even do that on his Visa gift card, which might make you feel comfortable giving a smaller amount. He can use it for whatever!

  20. Tomato Frog*

    Mild irritation of the day:

    I wrote a blog post for my work place which got a fair amount of traction (yay), and today I see I got a message on Facebook from someone I don’t know regarding it. My Facebook is personal use only and not connected to the blog post. I open the message, fixing to redirect the person to the appropriate channels for any questions they have. But the sum of the message is “Did you write [blog post]??”

    I showed it to a coworker and she suggested replying “Who wants to know?” Which is really how I’m feeling.

    PSA: if you contact strangers about stuff, tell them why you’re contacting them about stuff. Also maybe make contact through the avenues indicated on the website you’re coming from.

    1. Sadsack*

      I would ignore it. They’ll catch on and try again through the blog site if you have a means of contact there. Writing back to the person through FB may just be inviting trouble, no matter what you write. If you don’t want to be contacted by strangers there, then do not respond to them there.

        1. Jessesgirl72*

          And since you don’t want contacted by strangers, adjust your privacy settings so that strangers can’t message you.

          1. Tomato Frog*

            I don’t mind being contacted by strangers, per se. Usually they tell me who they are and why they’re contacting me — but it doesn’t come up that much.

  21. Doe-eyed*

    How do you deal with an incompetent manager that no one will say anything to? She’s blundering her way through managing our admin staff and anytime it’s brought up to anyone in a position to do something about it we get a talking to about how “they’re not going to fire her!”

    We don’t WANT them to fire her, we want someone that’s got some teeth to pull her back from going crazy about things that don’t matter.

    1. fposte*

      You either talk to her boss, if it’s egregious enough to hurt the business/organization, or you accept she’s going to be like this and decide if you can live with it. But odds are that if this was something the business cared enough about to change it would have been changed already.

      1. Doe-eyed*

        So I’ve talked to her boss (who is consequently also one of my bosses). We’re an goverment academic center so doing anything to anyone is almost impossible, which I understand, but I think if someone were to guide her she could do a better job. She’s just driving everyone crazy.

        The most recent debacle was holiday coverage. She started asking us about it the Friday before Thanksgiving and then got annoyed that we hadn’t told her when we were taking vacation. (Note: Prior to this, our manager told us to make sure we had everything covered, alert the people we worked directly with and then take whatever time we wanted). So we didn’t report it because we’d never been expected to. Now she’s running around the office setting up spreadsheets for coverage, but not really understanding that most of us can’t cover the rest of us. The admin for Spout Design knows nothing about the Handle Development department and so you can’t just swap them out. We’ve had at least six separate meetings about “what we do” (both in groups and individually), and she’s done our reviews, but she just can’t seem to grasp that it’s not like a factory floor that you can swap people in and out of.

        1. fposte*

          If you’ve talked to her boss, and her boss has managed to stave it all off with blather about the difficulty of firing people rather than simply managing her employee, then what you have is what you’re going to get.

          1. Doe-eyed*

            That’s pretty much what I’m afraid of. I don’t know a nice way to tell them they’re going to lose a lot of admin staff over the continual drama and micromanaging without sounding petulant.

            1. Jules the First*

              Can you pick a couple of concrete things that you would like her boss to do? If so, I’d take one more pass at her boss and say something along the lines of “I know you’re committed to having Lucinda in charge of the admin team and I think she has the potential to be a really good manager, but I’m concerned that she’s having trouble getting her head around everything the team does – and that’s a mammoth task in itself – which gives her a tendency to micromanage. I think it would be really great for the team’s morale if you could help Lucinda relax a bit, and that it would really improve communication.”

              If Lucinda’s boss is not particularly involved in her day to day work, it may not be apparent exactly what is going wrong, and if all they’re getting is vague complaints about how ‘Lucinda sucks – our old manager was way nicer’, that doesn’t really give them much to work on and it’s easier (not right, but easier) to just say ‘suck it up because we are not firing Lucinda’.

          1. Doe-eyed*

            Fair point! I was trying to think of something that had more interchangeable pieces but I realize that’s not a great analogy either. Actually, my difficulty in thinking of jobs that you can do that in that aren’t entry level retail type positions is making me wonder why she thinks it’s a good idea.

  22. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I started my new job on Monday, and… it’s great so far. I am refraining from saying “I love it” because I am so damn risk-averse, but so far I am so happy I found this position and that they liked me. The people are great (and many of them have been here for over 10 years, which is a giant plus in my book, especially for a small company), my boss has a very clear outline of his expectations for me and my goals, and the office environment is exactly what I like. I realized by Tuesday afternoon that they hired me knowing I knew next to nothing about this side of the business (I worked in teapots for over 10 years, now I’m in coffee pots– still hot beverages, just a different type and a different type of drinker), and that’s ok because they want to guide my learning. Huge relief. I also found out this week that the benefits are better than I expected because our founder believes in treating people fairly and well. We had the company holiday party last night and it was so fun– SOs were invited (new for me!), we got presents (even the SOs!), and people genuinely wanted to get to know us. Plus, no pressure to get super wasted and crazy like at my last gig. We left at 10:30 and were among the last to go home.

    I also discovered– and I don’t know how I didn’t quite realize this– that I’m considered part of the senior staff here. My last position felt like a big step back, but now I feel like I’m back on the right track. Senior staff goes out to lunch together almost every day, which puts a big wrench in my diet plans, but I think that’s a sacrifice I can make.

    Most importantly, though, I feel so lucky that my severance from my last job allowed me to really take a break, recover from the burnout and stress, and figure out what was best for me. When I first left my job back in August, I was so determined to get a new one that I talked to all the hot new agencies in town– I am so, so happy that I didn’t get hired there because I would have been miserable for the same reasons I was miserable at the last place. A big thanks to everyone for commiserating with me over these past four months and for being so encouraging! 2016 kinda sucked, but it feels like December might make up for most of it.

    3. Sibley*

      Yay!

      Re the diet and eating out – you can find something healthy at restaurants, it just takes more work. Do the prep work to figure out what they have that you like and meets your needs, it’ll be worth it. Also, it’s 1000% ok to only eat half of what you’re given. Ask for a doggy bag upfront and bag up whatever you’ll take home for later (or give away- I work downtown in a big city, and there’s always homeless people around, so I’ve given away food plenty of times.)

    4. FrequentLurker*

      Congratulations! You sound like you’re walking on air! Isn’t it amazing how much difference a supportive workplace makes? I’m very happy for you.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Congratulations! You sound so very happy, I am excited for you. Here’s to 2017! cheers!

  23. RadioGirl*

    My company has traditionally not used standard mileage reimbursement rates. For example, we usually get about 24-30 cents per miles, except when gas price decline, then the rate declines, too. It’s been as low as 15 cents per mile.

    Is this normal?

    1. Dawn*

      No, most places just use the IRS recommendation for reimbursing mileage as far as I know. Much easier that way.

    2. agree*

      Yes. The “standard” rate is usually what the Feds say is the maximum you can claim for deductions on your tax return and is an estimation of all costs of using your car (gas, maintenance, depreciation. At 24-30 cents you’re getting reimbursed for gas and a little extra.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      It’s super common in academia, in my experience.

      If your personal cost per mile is actually higher, I think you can deduct the extra on your taxes. Maybe someone with more experience can chime in.

      1. Natalie*

        You can, although of course that only helps if you have enough deductions to exceed the standard one, which many people don’t.

    4. Pwyll*

      I’ve also heard of this. I think it’s a bad business practice, but it’s not necessarily abnormal.

    5. CDM*

      My current employer is similar, and I’ve done some research.

      It may not be “normal”, but it’s legal and it doesn’t appear to be uncommon. Basically, no business is required to pay business mileage reimbursements to employees. Many businesses do reimburse per the IRS guidelines on what business mileage is tax-deductible to the employee if it is not reimbursed. (Yay! You get to subsidize your employer’s business expenses with pre-tax dollars instead of post tax dollars!) Some employers don’t reimburse at all, my boss once had a sales job where he deducted over 30k unreimbursed business miles one year.

      Not only does my employer reimburse less than the IRS rate, but they also use an expense reporting website that deducts your commute mileage from all business trips that start or end at your home rather than your office, and uses Google maps to figure mileage based on the “fastest route”, rather than using your actual odometer mileage.

      So, when I drive from my home to the main office, which is fully deductible door-to-door per the IRS, I lose 28 miles for my commute distance, and another ten miles for taking a slightly longer but faster route that avoids a rush hour bottleneck, on top of being reimbursed at a lower rate.

      And for reasons that are none of my employer’s business, I do not itemize deductions. They save $35 every time I have to drive to the main office, and I eat the difference. Fortunately I do very little business driving.

    6. The Rat-Catcher*

      We get 37 cents for “standard” mileage (when there was no agency vehicle available) or 26 cents for “fleet” mileage (when we had an available vehicle and chose to drive). But we’re notoriously cheap.

  24. AnotherAnony*

    I applied for a position at a college and they checked my references BEFORE even scheduling an interview. Will they check them again at the end? If this something that I could ask them or not?

    1. kbeersosu*

      It is weird, but I’ve had it done to me before as a candidate. And it was also for a university position. I’ve found that some universities just have weird processes. For others, it’s because they want more objective (i.e. not directly from the candidate’s mouth) information before they get serious about a candidate. For some, it’s because they want to be able to move quickly once they get the interviews scheduled, so they do reference checks earlier to avoid that causing a delay when they do choose who they want to offer to.

      To your second question, I have had them do reference checks twice. So it’s possible they may call again…

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Academic hiring is weird. If you want to work in it, this must become your mantra. Repeat it often during the job hunt, because it is so very true.

      Here’s how I would frame it if you want to ask, “Can you tell me a little bit more about the hiring process from this point out?”

      I wouldn’t ask specifically about the ref check, because I think if I was hiring, I would wonder why you asked and if there was some problem with your references. As for if they will check again, I doubt it. The only time I’ve checked references before an interview, we didn’t bother them a second time. We knew what we needed to know and we also didn’t want to be rude to them. After all, references are people, too.

    3. Buggy Crispino*

      I recently had a public school system check my references and I never once heard from them. They even called my current employer even though I had not checked the option for “can we contact your current job?” Somewhere along the way they chose to promote internally, so I was never contacted (not even one of the “we’ve received your application” type confirmations.) I do know someone else that works there and he confirmed to me a month or so later that my references were excellent and I had been moved to the “call to schedule interview” pile.

      But I did have to field questions from several of my references about that job. My current boss at the time was actually OK with it since we had already discussed my looking for work since a layoff was pending, but they could have really screwed up my current situation. It was kind of awkward to have them ask about the job that they thought I was in the final running for and I never even knew I was being considered.

    4. Anxa*

      I am actually amazed by the advice on this blog sometimes, because references before interview was the norm for my experiences, not the exception. It doesn’t make much sense to me because I feel like then you’re left with the question you have now…

      I would think they’d want to follow up on your interview.

    5. Frustrated Optimist*

      Not exactly the same, but twice now I have applied for a job at a community college. The first time, I was granted an interview, but then subsequently rejected. The second time (same institution, three months later), I was also granted an interview but asked to *supply transcripts* ahead of the interview. So I did. No telling yet whether or not I will be granted a second interview.

    6. Nye*

      That’s not unusual. When I applied for academic positions, they usually checked references before interviewing. It’s often how they get their longlist down to a shortlist to invite to an interview. (Not everyone phone screens before in-person interviews.) Academia can be weird.

      My guess is that they won’t check your given references again, though they may well reach out to other references. (Supervisors you didn’t list, any mutual connections, etc.)

      Good luck!

  25. Smiling*

    Just need to vent. Our small office planned a Christmas party (on a weekend) in a part of the city that I don’t go in, because I don’t feel it’s safe. The fact that I don’t go there is no secret and this was known years before the party was planned.

    I’m fine with this, this is the office’s party, not my personal thing. I’ve wished everyone a good time and politely said that I would not be attending.

    The problem is that everyone keeps coming to me trying to get me to go, offering to drive me, offering to drive my spouse. I’ve politely said no to several of them, but more people keep approaching me. I have explained to a few of them, more than once, that it’s not about how I get there, it’s being there in general.

    I only have the rest of the day to deal with this, but really hope that this stops now and does not continue until closing time.

    1. me again*

      I would say that you made other plans (even if that involves sitting on the couch eating takeout)…

    3. Central Perk Regular*

      You have my sympathies because this kind of stuff really aggravates me. I was in the same situation last week (except it was a friend’s party, not an office party). I think the key here is to be firm and be consistent – basically, the good old “broken record technique.”

      “Thank you, but I’ve already got plans for tonight. Have a great time!”
      “I appreciate the offer, but I’m going to sit this one out. Hope you have a nice time.”

      Friendly PSA to people who like to do this: If someone says they don’t want to go/can’t go to an event, just take them at their word and DROP IT.

      1. Smiling*

        Thank you, truly, for your sympathies. I just wanted to vent and felt I got slammed by some of these comments.

        Unfortunately, our group is so small (as in we all know each others’ business) that the “other plans” excuse may not have worked this time.

    4. Tuckerman*

      The only thing I’d caution is the way you’re explaining your decision. You may have co-workers who live in that are and disagree (or are insulted that you believe) it’s unsafe. Just politely decline, “I won’t be able to make it this year, but enjoy!”

      1. Hellanon*

        Yes, please. I ran my writer’s group for a year or so and had a potential new member tell me that she was worried about her new car, specifically driving it though my neighborhood. “You know, I’ve heard the bullets come up there from South Central,” were the exact words.

        To which my exact words were, “You know, I’m pretty sure we’re not the group for you. Thanks for calling, though.”

        1. AnonAcademic*

          Yeah, I have no idea what the OP’s reasons are, but the sentiment of “I don’t go to XYZ neighborhood because it’s too dangerous” is one I often see from people unfamiliar with said neighborhood whose sense of relative safety is more conservative than the average city dweller who is used to assuming some (small) risk anywhere in an urban environment. Occasionally “unsafe” is also code for “lower middle class, mostly immigrants or brown people.” All of these reasons make it challenging to take stated safety concerns totally at face value so I would suggest the OP not use that specific excuse.

    5. persimmon*

      I can see why your coworkers are reacting this way. Such a strong categorical fear of an “unsafe” neighborhood can be puzzling and even offensive to some. I think when you have a non-negotiable phobia like this, a little information can be TMI, better to just say you’re busy.

      1. Lissa*

        Yeah, I completely agree on this. It’s a bit more loaded than a phobia of spiders and they decide to have it at the bug museum. There’s almost no way to say you feel unsafe going there without causing potential hurt or offense in those who might live or work there.

      2. Smiling*

        The party is in a commercial (non-residential) section of town, very touristy. In recent years it’s had a rash of thefts, armed-robberies and murders with an occasional mass shooting thrown in. This is highly publicized in the news. Still it’s a very popular part of town to go to for it’s party style atmosphere.

        1. MillersSpring*

          We have a couple of areas like that in my large city. If my company planned a party in either area, I’d try to get a ride with a coworker, organize a car pool, ask if valet parking is available, or use a taxi or Uber. Eliminate the risk of parking your own car or walking to/from the venue by yourself.

    6. Anonymous poster*

      I agree with prior posters to say that one solution to your specific issue is have a prior commitment.

      To everyone else:

      I read this post as Smiling and husband being visibly members of a minority group and being invited to an event in a neighborhood that has a reputation for white power groups or a very wealthy neighborhood with a reputation for having security ‘move people who don’t belong along ‘. Unfortunately, both of these things are still real issues.

      Smiling:

      If my read is correct, I hope you will consider being more blunt with specific examples. I think unfortunately quite a few nonracist ‘white’ people mistakenly blatant discrimination and racial violence is 99.9% a thing of the past.

      If my read is incorrect, please do some fact checking and introspection.

      1. Lissa*

        oh, that’s interesting! My read was totally different, but then I have only experienced people who say a certain place is not safe to mean the exact opposite thing as what you’ve suggested.

  26. Cath in Canada*

    My manager gave me a great present this year – a personalized online advent calendar! So now I start every day by sitting down at my desk to watch a new silly cat video, with my manager’s blessing. Highly recommended, especially because I have not one, not two, but three urgent deadlines next week, even though December grant deadlines really should be illegal.

    In return, I plan to send him a link to the upcoming Worst Bosses of 2016 post with a “thank you for being sane” note.

    1. fposte*

      Cath! I was going to post about you because it’s work-related for you–I just preordered your Introducing Epigenetics: A Graphic Guide. I was so excited to realize that was yours!

      1. Cath in Canada*

        OOH! Awesome! Thank you :D

        I’ll be going through the last of the illustrations this weekend – they look good so far! It’s so cool to see it all coming together. I especially enjoyed seeing the artist’s rendering of the one “character” in the book who I know in real life :)

  27. Weekend working*

    Working weekends- I recently applied for a job that listed “Availability and flexibility to work weekday evenings and weekends on a regular basis” under the qualification section. Anyone here have a job that requires the same? What should I consider? Is it manageable or too draining?

    1. J*

      I have had jobs that occasionally involved helping out at events on weekends and evenings. It has never been a chore, and those positions usually extended some flexibility during the week to “make up” for it. As in, being allowed to come in at noon on a day of my choosing the next week after working an event that went until midnight. It was only a handful of times a year, so it was manageable for me.

      The big question is what does “a regular basis” mean? Something like catering or anything wedding-related will likely require your time on most, if not all weekends. Other jobs might mean that you’re only working weekends seasonally or at some other interval?

      It’s definitely something to ask about in the interview!

    2. Phlox*

      It can be hard – I work in a job with a 6 month programmatic season where I’m working a lot of weekends/evenings. Its hard on my body to not have a consistent schedule and it really threw my social life out of whack, it’s been hard getting back on track from not being available much of the time. Keep an eye out for whether its consistent – is it a patchwork of random evenings or can you block Thursdays as work and plan for regular socializing on Wednesdays?

    3. kbeersosu*

      I would encourage you to try and get a really good understanding of what they mean by this. In the earliest part of my career I worked in a position that required a lot of this. Then I transitioned into a more traditional 9-5 job with only occasional nights/weekends (maybe 6 total/year). And then I relocated out of state to follow my husband last year and took a job that was advertised as occasional nights and weekends, which was a HUGE lie. I ended up working 2-3 late nights (sometimes until 11pm)/week and at least one Saturday/month. And it was awful. The big issue was that they underestimated how many nights and weekends I would need to work, and the kind of work was much more intensive and draining- i.e. the difference between floating at an event and having to run a committee meeting. After just three months I was looking for a new job because it was draining, because I could never feasibly find a way to only work 40 hours/week, and because it had a really negative impact on my home life. So as not to be all negative, the upside to this was that I did have flexibility in my schedule. So some days I wouldn’t come in until 2pm, which meant that I could run errands, clean the house, have lunch by myself, go grocery shopping when the store was quiet, etc. I do miss that. But not enough to go back to doing all those nights and weekends.

    4. LisaLee*

      This is how my current job works. I find it manageable, but that’s VERY dependent on how your company handles things and who you are. I also helps that I’ve almost always had weekend/night hours–I don’t feel the loss of a set schedule.

      At my job, I work a set number of hours. So I might get Tuesday off if I work Thursday and Friday nights, which is great. I love this arrangement. But I have a friend whose job gives her no comp time like that–she just has to work when she’s called, tough cookies–and she hates it.

      If you’re a person who needs a lot of winding down time at night, a set bedtime, or a full weekend to decompress, I’d reconsider.

    5. Susan*

      I think it depends a lot on what that means. For example, is it exempt or non-exempt? If it’s exempt, that could mean working extra hours on evenings and weekends without additional pay, and that would suck! If it’s non-exempt, that could mean overtime, or it could mean that some of your scheduled hours will be evenings and weekends. Would the evening and weekend hours be scheduled in advance, or would it be a situation where they’ll call you at the last minute if they need you?

      FWIW, I have a job with rotating shifts. I alternate a week of dayshift and a week of night shift, and I work different days from one week to the next. I actually like this schedule in some ways, because in weeks that I work nights and/or weekends, I have some weekdays off, so I can do things like make doctor’s appointments without using PTO. The rough part is switching between dayshift and night shift every week, which is very draining, but that probably doesn’t apply to this job (I’m assuming that “evenings” doesn’t mean overnight). This schedule also makes it difficult to have any outside hobbies, e.g., taking classes, because there is no day and time that I am available every week. I have noticed that people with children have more difficulty with an irregular schedule, both because of childcare issues and having to miss events because of work, so that may or may not be something you need to consider.

    6. BRR*

      It’s going to depend on the context of the position. Since they said regular basis that is very telling to me that it will be often. I’d want to know if there’s consistency in the schedule and do they expect you do that beyond M-F 9-5 or do you get comp time.

    7. Sunflower*

      This is something you’d definitely want to ask during an interview.

      I used to have to work some Sundays- I would say maybe 5-6 year? I have a friend who probably works 10 weekends a year. My friend works 2 weekends/month on average and isn’t happy. I will also say that all of our weekend work has been events and those are usually planned very much in advance. I was always aware at the beginning of the year what days I’d need to work which I think also makes a big difference.

    8. AliceBD*

      I think it would really depend on the type of job. I work every evening and every weekend because I do social media, so I’m working from home in my PJs, and unless there’s a crisis it’s not much time.

    9. Al Lo*

      I work in a) the arts, and b) a field dealing with kids. There are a lot of weekends and evenings, since our programming takes place mostly after school and when kids are available. For me, in a 40-hour/week job that’s a combination of office work and on-site work for performances and rehearsals, it works out well. My base schedule is 12-7-ish, and my Fridays are very flexible. Today I was in the office for 2 1/2 hours. Some weeks it’s a full 8-hour day. I work about 2 weekends/month — but sometimes that averages out to working every weekend between mid-September and the end of October and every weekend in August off as a normal weekend.

      My co-workers with small kids can find it challenging, and definitely need to have the right support system in place. For me, it’s great. I’m a night owl, and really dislike a regular schedule. I like the flexibility of my job and my days, and it never feels like shift work, since I’m not set to certain hours.

      YMMV, though. “Availability and flexibility” can mean a lot. We always put it in our job descriptions with a similar description to what I wrote above: Core hours are M-Th, Fridays are flexible, average of 2 weekends/month are required, but it may not be 2 weekends every month, some may be more, some less, and those dates are set ahead of time and you don’t get to pick or opt in/out of most of them.

  28. Batshua*

    Suggestions on how to deal with a toxic micromanager who is team lead but NOT your boss?

    Certain people haven’t been around lately and it has massively improved my physical and mental health, but I know eventually they will be back. I *am* looking for something else, but what do I do to keep my sanity while I’m still here?

    1. NoMoreMrFixit*

      I found that bombarding micromanagers with status updates helped keep them at bay. Yes they are hugely annoying but their need to be in control and informed overrides common sense. Keeping them informed feeds that and keeps them somewhat tamed.

      “delegating upwards” is a tactic I learned from a previous manager. Push decisions up to the micromanager whenever possible. Gives them the sense of power and control. And sometimes it results in them backing off and letting you do your job. Sometimes.

      Good luck

    2. MillersSpring*

      No advice except to adopt “This too shall pass” as your hourly mantra. I’ve been there, and it’s awful. Im so sorry.

      Here’s a HUGE F— You to each of the micromanaging condescending rude bosses I’ve had. Wish I could leave each one an anonymous scathing review on their LinkedIn.

  29. anon worker bee*

    How do you know when it’s actually time to move on or when you’re just annoyed by work in general?

    I like my job. Great pay, good benefits, nice people. But sometimes the slog of WORK just gets to me (like anyone, I’d assume) and I worry that I romanticize other opportunities that would have the same issues. I mean, I still have to commute, deal with annoying coworkers, deal with office politics, and occasionally question what I’m doing with my life no matter where I work, right?

    I feel a lot of pressure to move on because everyone I know seems to job-hop a lot more, and my industry is full of people who jump around every 2-3 years. But I don’t want to make this about what other people are doing. I guess I just wonder if other people feel this way and what questions I should ask myself to know if I’m annoyed with my actual job or just WORKING, in which case, how do I fix the latter?!

    1. Venus Supreme*

      What is it specifically about your job that you got excited about in the beginning? Do you get that terrible pit in your stomach when Sunday evening rolls around? I’d really explore what exactly is it about your job that you like and what exactly you want to see change.

      I combat the 40hr workweek slump with supplemental activities to look forward to. I started a mini anthropological project (long story, our building is historic and it’s being knocked down) on the side. I go to yoga twice a week and it gives me something to look forward to between Monday-Friday. Another coworker started exercising in her office. It sounds like you’re stuck in a routine and you need to change things up!

      It’s also good to understand that not every job has to be behind a desk. My boyfriend doesn’t have the typical office job and it works for him well!

      1. anon worker bee*

        No, I don’t really get that pit in my stomach on Sundays. I’m pretty happy to go to work for the most part. There isn’t a ton of room for growth, but I don’t know if I care about that.

        Now that I’m typing this out, I wonder if it really is just that I need to mix it up a bit with outside-of-work activities, since I don’t think it’s actually my job that’s the problem…

        Thanks for your thoughts!

        1. Venus Supreme*

          It sounds like you gotta change it up- and I’m totally with you on that! I just finished an 8-week improv class and it made me excited to go to work on Mondays. (also the winter months are also tough on me and I try to stay busy!)

          Maybe there’s a hockey team you want to join, or Gong meditation you’ve been itching to try, or you found there’s Bingo on Wednesday nights!

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      There are definitely people in toxic situations who have to get out now. Doesn’t seem you’re in that situation. But you’re clearly not happy. It’s not as if there are just two options (in “dream” job or in hell). You can definitely be in purgatory. I would say in some ways that’s great, because you know you want something else, but you have less urgency to find something, because you’re not miserable. So I would just stay and keep an eye out for other opportunities.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      In addition to looking at how you fill up your personal time, I’d recommend reading the job ads. If you find yourself saying “nope, nope, nope” a lot then it might be that the job is okay and it is time to jazz up life a bit.

      I think one of the biggest challenges of work is just going from day to day to day…. When you feel like you have hit a slog, see if you can find fresh ways of looking at the slog. Can you streamline something to make it easier? Can you find ways to work ahead, such as you know in six months you will need all Xs, can you start collecting Xs now?

      It sounds like you are trying to look at things as they are, rather than fantasy. Yes, most jobs have some sort of issues or challenges to overcome. Your challenge could be just following the routine. Sometimes that is the hardest challenge because it is not clear cut if the work is a problem or if we, ourselves, are having a problem. At least with a nasty boss or cohort, it is clear cut, they are nasty and it’s time to leave.

      Do you have an idea of where you want to be in five years? Do you have a few things you want to do in life? It might be time to pull out these longer term goals and think about how you will get there. Will this job help you get that house/education/dog/trip/whatever that you have on your list of longer term goals?

  30. T3k*

    Has anyone had experience working as a virtual assistant? I’ve been eyeing it as a possible job, but not sure where to even start, what to look for, etc. For instance, is being a VA contractor, full time employee, do you use a separate phone for customers, etc?

    2. krysb*

      No experience, but I have done a lot of research in this. You can start your own business, hire on as a contractor with a business that specializes in VAs – some may even hire people as regular employees, or find a job as an admin that is remote. There’s a book you may want to read, it’s called The Bootstrap VA. It may answer some of your questions.

  31. Venus Supreme*

    I mentioned on here a while ago that our business manager won’t switch to direct deposit and all the annoyances that has come with. Well, for Giving Tuesday she decided to make her OWN fundraiser campaign at 3AM one night with a $5,000 goal. She didn’t consult with Marketing, Development, or the ED (and you can tell it wasn’t thoughtfully constructed), but she did complain out loud at lunch why we weren’t donating our organization. The only people who gave were herself, a friend, and our BOARD CHAIR. She has yet to receive any repercussions.

    As a fresh college grad working in fundraising, this type of forgiveness around this behavior stuns me. I definitely expressed my concerns to the higher-ups.

    1. MWKate*

      She sounds ridiculous. Anyone who won’t switch to direct deposit immediately throws up red flags for me anyway.

      1. Venus Supreme*

        She’s been with this organization for over 30 years now. She’s our most senior employee- and it looks like people are scared to ruffle her feathers because of that. I’m just so frustrated she is able to get away with this behavior!

        1. MWKate*

          Unfortunately I’ve found that thing to be so common. It’s like at some point certain places give immunity to employees after a certain amount of time, or think that holding them to the same standards as everyone else (or having to fire them) will ruin morale – when really, establishing some kind of hierarchy on how fairly you are treated is what really sucks.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      She did receive repercussions, no one donated but two other people. In her world she got the ultimate telling off.

      It sounds like you will be seeing more of this type of stuff. I am sorry.

    3. Audiophile*

      The organization I work for now, only got direct deposit over the summer! Next year will be there 35th anniversary, and the ED who didn’t want direct deposit has been with the org for almost 30 years in some capacity. She doesn’t get her paycheck direct deposited and seems quite proud of this.

      Is there anyone above your business manager that could push for direct deposit?

      1. Venus Supreme*

        There is one person above the business manager who would have some say. Unfortunately she doesn’t exactly enforce anything. I asked her directly if we could have direct deposit and she laughed! I think that we can get direct deposit in a “power in numbers” type thing. My manager is on board with me and I think we can get our way through that approach.

        I mean, if the managing director won’t address anything to the business manager about making her own fundraising campaign at 3AM without ANY checking-in with the other senior levels, I can’t see her switching us over to direct deposit! It’s insane!

  32. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    My wife has been out of work on disability for a few weeks due to depression. I really didn’t want her to take that time, because I really wanted enough money to not burn through our savings again and have a decent Christmas, and she didn’t give me a definite timeline for when she planned to go back; so, I was really anxious. I mean, how do you plan financially that way?

    But now she’s feeling better and will be back to work on the 19th at the latest. And my work (I do contract work making a bit more than she does, but it’s less stable work), got extended at least through Christmas!

    And there are donuts at work today!

    1. ThatGirl*

      I understand it making you anxious, I really do. My husband has struggled with depression and I’ve been left to wonder sometimes “how long will this last.” But it sounds like she needed some time to focus on herself and her health, and hopefully she has a plan in place now and will be better off in the long run.

    3. Karanda Baywood*

      I’m not sure if you’re looking for comments or not… but this really jumped out at me:
      “I really didn’t want her to take that time, because I really wanted enough money to not burn through our savings again”

      Wasn’t it *her* decision to help herself get better? And why would you not support that?

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Well, because she made the decision to file for leave without talking to me first about it, or first setting a firm get-back-to-work date.

        She can act impulsively and make decisions that aren’t really right when she’s doing badly, so I understood why she didn’t talk to me first. But I was (and still am!) annoyed about that, and I guess that came through.

      2. AnonymousX4*

        They’re a committed couple and mature people don’t just decide huge things like that without discussion, planning, and agreement. That’s why the OP has every right to be scared and concerned and mad.

        1. Caro in the UK*

          Unfortunately, making big decisions without properly thinking them through can be one of the results of mental illness. When you’re in the very depths of depression (or anxiety, or any other mental illness) rational thinking can be very, very difficult. And you often clutch at any possible chance to feel better (like taking a break from work) without fully thinking it through, because you’re so desperate to get even a moment’s relief.

          I’ve been on both sides of this relationship (both my partner and I suffer with mental illness, which can get very severe). So I completely understand his worry. And he has every right to be scared and concerned, I’d be worried if he wasn’t!

          But I’d try, as much as possible, not to be mad about this, any more than you’d be mad at her if she’d slipped on ice and broken her leg (and had to take the same time off work). Even though objectively it was her choice to take that time off work, I can almost certainly guarantee that it wasn’t a choice she wanted to make.

          1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

            Thanks! I’m thinking to tell her that I was worried and mad that she didn’t talk to me about this, and that in the future she at least needs to TELL me (not necessarily ask, just let me know X is going to happen). Springing things on me like this makes me panic and exacerbates my own problem.

            1. Caro in the UK*

              You’re welcome :) You seem like a very supportive partner and it’s totally understandable to be freaked out by this.

              Asking her to tell you if she feels like something similar is about to happen again is a good idea. Maybe when she’s feeling better, see if you can sit down together and have a discussion about what to do if she does find herself feeling like she needs to take a break again (unfortunately mental illness is often cyclical in nature). See if you can work together to come up with a plan that will make both of you feel more comfortable and less anxious about the possibility.

              It’s also important for both of you to recognise that just because she’s the one suffering, it doesn’t mean that you’re not impacted too. Getting some help for yourself (finding a therapist, counsellor, or just talking to a trusted friend) is important too; carrying all that worry by yourself and having to be the responsible one all the time can drag you down and build resentment.

              1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

                I already have that! Plus my counselor uses dogs in the office as part of sessions. So I get to pet and hug something while talking about hard things. It really helps. Although I am then covered in slobber!

                1. Caro in the UK*

                  Ha! :) Mine is blind (my counsellor) and has a guide dog which demands petting. It’s the best!

      3. Caro in the UK*

        I agree. I understand not wanting to use up your savings (believe me, I’ve been in exactly your position OP). But absolutely nothing is more important that your health. If she’s getting better after a few weeks off, then I’d definitely say it was worth the financial hit.

        1. OhBehave*

          I’m sure you also understand that there really isn’t a ‘shelf life’ for issues such as this. Expecting her to have a return date puts some pressure on to get better. That being said, she really should have at least told you what was going on so you weren’t surprised. I’m happy to hear that she is able to get back to work though.

    4. Kelly White*

      I’m glad she’s feeling better!

      I can empathize- my husband has had to take time off due to anxiety – and as much as I want to be loving and supportive, I also want to pay the mortgage and eat on a regular basis. It’s so hard to deal with, and I always feel like a big putz when I get frustrated. The last time he was out, his doc signed him back in, and it took a few weeks before his company found him a comparable position. I was freaking out (internally)!

      Yay for contract extensions and donuts!!

    5. Wandering Anon*

      Glad to hear that – congratulations on the contract extension!

      Good luck! Depression is a hard thing to deal with and I hope you both have the support you need.

    6. The Rat-Catcher*

      I feel this post so much. My SO left his job last month because of the effects it was having on his mental health. He’s starting a new job Tuesday that pays less, seemingly just when we were starting to get ahead a little bit. We both find this frustrating, but I feel like I can’t express it quite as much because then he feels guilty for not being “strong” enough to tough out the other situation. (We both grew up with some really weird ideas about mental health issues. I have what I feel is a pretty evolved view now, but he’s still going through that process.) I believe he did the right thing and he is visibly happier since leaving that job, but it does suck when these things happen around the holidays.

    9. bluesboy*

      I’ve never had this kind of problem so I can’t offer any advice, but I just wanted to say that I always notice your posts (unforgettable username!) and I love how honest and open you are. You seem a really nice person and I hope everything works out. All the best!

  33. AmyNYC*

    I have my own coffee mug that I use at work. If I’ve finished a cup of tea, the mug will have a tea bag left, so I will put trash (granola bar wrapper, occasional post-its) in the cup, so that the next time I get up I can dump the whole lot then wash my cup.
    No one has mentioned it, and the cup lives on the far side of my desk from my neighbor, but what does the AAM hive mind think? Is this gross or is it OK?

    2. Venus Supreme*

      If the garbage sits longer than a day, I might give it a lil’ side-eye. If it stays longer than a week, I might silently judge. But if it stays there for a few minutes or an hour, I wouldn’t think anything of it! Sounds like you’re A-OK.

      Also, I have an issue with food garbage (because mold is Really Gross for me), but since it’s papers and herbal water residue it’s totally fine.

    3. fposte*

      As long as it’s not inherently gross garbage to have out and it’s your dedicated cup, it’s fine.

    6. Mockingjay*

      It’s fine. At my job, the kitchen is downstairs, so I usually make the trip twice a day: midmorning for final coffee refill, and late afternoon, to dispose of food wrappers and wash the mug before leaving for the day.

      I also keep a small bottle of cleaner and extra napkins in a drawer, so I can discreetly wipe the desk if needed.

    7. hermit crab*

      I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Maybe don’t use your mug for temporary storage of banana peels, apple cores, etc. — but for wrapper-level trash I don’t think it’s gross!

    8. Pwyll*

      I’ve done this before. But don’t be me: one time I was in such a rush out the door that I forgot to dump and wash my cup. And then it snowed. So when I returned . . . it was pretty nasty.

    9. matcha123*

      Honestly?
      I’d think “ew”. But it’s your mug and you’re not forcing me to drink from it.

      Sometimes I keep the tea bag in my mug and refill it with hot water until all the flavor is gone.
      I’m sure there are people that think that’s nasty, but I’m not forcing them to drink it.

      1. Marisol*

        Since you ask, it strikes me as ever-so-slightly gross, and makes me wonder why you don’t put the granola wrapper in the trash can at your desk–don’t you have a trash can? But it probably isn’t something I would notice if a coworker did it.

    10. The Rat-Catcher*

      On a coworker level, I agree with what seems to be the consensus here: if it’s not smelly or moldy, don’t care.
      On a personal level, if you’re washing the cup afterwards, same-day, I don’t see a problem. I might do a similar thing if I didn’t have a trash can in my cube.

    11. Cath in Canada*

      I do the same – we have trash cans at our desk but not food waste/compost bins, so I’ll often put an orange or banana peel in my mug on top of my used tea bag and dump the whole lot in the food waste bin on my next trip to the kitchen. I think as long as it doesn’t sit like that overnight it’s all good.

  34. Lucie in the Sky*

    ~7 months ago I left a job where I was working my ass off, being really good at a job but not making a good salary. (One of my close friends also worked there but in a different division) I had been expecting a promotion based on some promises by my manager (who isn’t the one setting the budget) — and her manager who was the GM said while he would like to they couldn’t make it happen for another year perhaps. I ended up leaving for a job making significantly more — the best they could offer to match was = 1/3 of what I was leaving for more. I really enjoyed that whole team, they were good to work with, and hard workers, I didn’t dread going into work. They were a bit more strict on attendance / timing and long hours then my current job. (It was my first job in a new area and I stayed there about 14 months)

    My current job I am not happy with. The culture isn’t a right fit for me. It has better benefits then my old job (higher 401K match, less insurance deductible etc) – and my direct boss is a really nice person, he’s flexible lets me manage my time as I see fit, has no problems with last minute days off whatever… But I am not happy. It’s so hard to come into work and I don’t want to look for a new job and have two short stays on my resume.

    So cue earlier this week I have been invited to go out with some of my former coworkers, and I accept and have dinner. And old GM who is not functionally the next person below the president (after some rearranging happens) — mentions three times that they’re hiring. I mention I miss them whatever, give him my current salary. He says he’ll see what he would do (it’d be a different type of job then I had been doing — but something that everyone says I have good aptitude for) — and I don’t think he’s really serious and leave. Now I’ve gotten a message that he wants to know if I am serious and they’re trying to work it out.

    Is it crazy that I am considering going when you weigh in that the benefits are less? Does the short stay read as bad if I go back to the same place (with clearly a higher level of title) — Is there something else I should be thinking about that I don’t know / should be concerned about?

    1. CM*

      It’s not crazy, but it is early in the process and you don’t have a lot of information yet. Go talk to the old company and see what they’re thinking. Also really think about what made you leave — was it purely the lack of promotion, or other things too? Would those things be fixed if you go back? How long are you willing to commit to go back for? A 7 month stay followed by a few years back at the old company is no big deal. A 7 month stay followed by 6 months at your old company, and then realizing again that it’s not right for you, is not good.

    2. Names Are Hard*

      If you were happy there, why not? This happens. Evaluate whether the work would be something you’d enjoy/be good at, and if the work would be a good fit. If so, you know you like the culture. A known quantity for you and them is a win/win.

    3. Jules the First*

      I did almost exactly that – left a job I loved for one that paid a lot more when my old bosses failed to give me the promotion and support they’d promised. I was miserable at the new job, but stuck it out for three months…until my old office called and said they were restructuring and would I come back and do something similar but not the same, if they matched my new salary. I said yes, and while I have no regrets, I ended up only staying for a year. I left again because while I the new work was interesting and stimulating and made me happy, the problems I’d had about being overloaded and not enough support were the same. So before you go back to a company, make sure that you’re going back for the right reasons – what you’ve just learned from this move is that you’re not someone who is primarily motivated by money, so you need to make sure you have good reasons other than money for every job you take.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yes, this. Be aware of allllll your reasons that you left and IF you go back make sure that most of your reasons have been resolved in some manner.

    4. BRR*

      The benefits are less but you should compare salary and benefits together. But happiness is important too. I took a job over a year ago that has severely affected my health because it’s so dysfunctional. I would take a small pay cut (being able to afford one is a factor) for more happiness.

      For the short stint. Think of it like any short stint. You can get away with it once if your other tenures are long and you can explain why you left your old job and the short job. The only fear I might have as a future hiring manager is would you leave us to go back to your old employer.

    5. The Rat-Catcher*

      I think going back to an old company reads differently on your track record than two short stays and then a third company. It won’t be hard for a future hiring manager to deduce what happened there.
      But I would consider what others have said above about why you left and if that’s being truly addressed as you go forward in this process of talking with Old Company.

  35. My Throat Still Burns*

    I posted an update a bit late last week (https://www.askamanager.org/2016/12/open-thread-december-2-3-2016.html#comment-1285183) to say the issue was resolved, but I guess I spoke too soon because yesterday Jane was wearing some new perfume and it’s very strong. I don’t know what to do. Did I somehow inadvertently give her the impression it was that particular scent that was bothering me? And now how to do reapproach the issue? The thing is, I like scents too, and this new one is much more pleasant than the last, but it’s too overpowering and is causing me to sneeze and my throat to feel irritated. What’s a nice way to say “can you please not use so much” when “so much” is subjective? Or would I be better off asking she doesn’t wear ANY perfume at all? I thought that is what I conveyed before but now here we are. *Sigh*

    1. CM*

      I don’t think there’s a non-awkward way to do this, but if it continues to happen I think it’s fine for you to say, “Jane, sorry to bring this up again, and I like the smell of your new perfume, but it’s causing me to sneeze and my throat to feel irritated. You were so understanding about it when we talked, and I really appreciated it when you started wearing less perfume. Would it be possible for you to stop wearing perfume to work, or just wear a very small amount? It would help a lot with my breathing.” (This script contains lots of softening language, and assumes that a little is OK with you… but I think mentioning how she’s so understanding and nice and helpful about this, and so you know that she would be happy to help again, would be a good approach.)

      1. Cryptic Critter*

        At this point I’d sort of point blank, but kindly ask her if her sense of smell might be off? People get “nose blind” and really don’t smell what you or I would. I have a friend who just loves her scents but cause she also uses those home air fresheners honestly can’t tell when she’s over done her perfume. Fortunately that’s my job!
        (laughing) You’d be surprised how many people are actually thankful you’ve said something instead of letting them walk around like that! Plus nose blind is an actual “thing”, so easy to chat about.

    2. You stink!*

      I’m so glad that I kept reading before posting my question because it is very similar to yours.

      I manage someone who wears WAAAAAYYYYY too much scent. No one in the office has medical issues with it (the one person on my staff who might hasn’t said anything about it–and they’ve worked together for 12 years) but he works with people in other departments, we have members of the public in our office on occasion, and sometimes we have volunteers, so I can’t say for certain that *no one* who he works with or near has no medical issues with his cologne.

      However, it stinks and is STRONG. Like, “oh, I can tell Fergus was here” strong. Here’s the problem: I’ve been his manager for over a year and haven’t said anything. Am I just out of luck and can’t say anything? Any advice for how to broach this topic? (I should have said something a year ago. I know that. But I didn’t, so that’s the position I’m coming from.)

      Thanks!

      1. Natalie*

        “Here’s the problem: I’ve been his manager for over a year and haven’t said anything. Am I just out of luck and can’t say anything?”

        Just generally, in life, you can ALWAYS speak up. There’s no expiration date to register your opinion or, since you’re a manager, tell your employee what to do. If it helps to acknowledge that you should have spoken up sooner, do that, but don’t keep yourself from saying something because it’s awkward.

      2. CM*

        You could imply that it just recently started bothering you, or you recently learned about sensitivities to scents and want him to cut down because he has a public-facing job.
        -CM, the Stink Whisperer

    3. Venus Supreme*

      If your throat is irritated, it sounds like it might be an allergic reaction. Definitely approach her again using CM’s language. I’d say if she strikes again after this, maybe it’s time for a no perfume/cologne policy. Your breathing is compromised, for Pete’s sake! A coworker of mine is sensitive to scents and we can’t have candles burning or the like. As much as I love candles (at home), I think this is an absolutely reasonable request!

    4. sniffles*

      I’ve given up on this problem and just sniffle & suffer.
      Other people just don’t care and they forget until I feel like all I do is ask them to go easy on scents.
      At old job my office mate (a FRIEND even!) just would not stop with the perfume. I’d let her know that I was having a problem with it, she’s tell me it was the only one she found that didn’t bother her so she couldn’t understand why it bothered me. Oy.

      I currently have air purifier on one side of me & happylight on the other with box of tissues also to my side..

    5. MillersSpring*

      It will be awkward, but it’s completely reasonable for you to speak up again:

      “Jane, I’ve noticed that you’re wearing a new perfume, and I need to ask that you either stop wearing any perfume at all or only wear the tiniest amount that isn’t perceptible when you walk by or come to my desk. Unfortunately it’s causing my throat to itch and other symptoms. I’m sorry to have to ask again, but scents are an issue for me. I’d appreciate your help.”

  36. Chet*

    I manage accounts receivable and my supervisor is the head of sales. When she is stressed, she tends to micromanage and make inappropriate requests, and lately she has been skipping around me to talk directly to the person who processes incoming payments–asking them for urgent reports, questioning her priorities, detailed accounts of how they spend their work time, information about the steps involved in processing a payment and how long it takes, etc. She even asks this person for secretarial assistance in some cases! I try to be extremely conscientious in reporting the details of my team’s work, being open to input, etc. but she is not comfortable hearing things from me–she has to experience them directly for herself.

    I know that when you are working with this type of personality you have to tolerate a certain amount of the behavior and deal with it, but this week, the accounts receivable clerk became so rattled and confused with my boss’s requests for information and assistance that she accidentally threw away two incoming checks.

    I have spoken with my boss many, many times over the years (including once already this week) about stepping away from close management of my area, trying to focus on sales, etc. and whenever I do, she tends to become upset and say that she has to do what she is doing. I think I must be using the wrong language when I approach her, so does anyone out there have suggestions in how to request that she step back without offending her? Thanks!

    1. NarrowDoorways*

      I dunno if there is anything to say. You’ve been working with her a few years? She may just be really set with what she feels she needs to do.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Boss, you have hired me to manage. Please let me manage. When you ask my subordinate directly it looks like you are going around me for some reason. Not only is it confusing to the subordinate but it also causes her to set aside work that I really need her to do in a timely manner.

      [Borrowing your words here] I try to be extremely conscientious about reporting the details of my team’s work and being open to inputs. Perhaps we can look at additional periodic reports that would be helpful to you. I am willing to make changes in routines that maybe of value to you. But I really need you to let me manage my people.

      When she says she has to do what she is doing, ask her “why?”. Then listen. Worst case scenario she gives you some long rambling thing that there is no response to. Hopefully, she gives you an answer that you can work with. I think it is fine to say, “Look, I know I have mentioned it a few times and I see it’s stressful for you. It’s stressful for me too, because I need to know what I should do better so that you don’t feel you ‘have to’ oversee the details of our daily work.”

      Basically there is no point to you managing if she is doing all the managing herself. It’s tricky to say this, but it can be done. It goes something like, “you are paying me to do that for you, please let me do it.”

    3. MillersSpring*

      It sounds like she has some kind of reason for wanting to understand the clerk’s daily tasks, methods and workload. Is she maybe thinking of outsourcing accounts receivable? Laying off people? Justifying to her bosses that she *shouldn’t* lay off the clerk?

  37. bemo12*

    My company holiday party was just planned and this year it is mandatory for all management to be there. I work in a role where I do not see the non-management employees, like ever.

    Anyway, last year I brought my husband (I’m a gay male) to the party and we were harassed by some of the other attendees. My boss filed an HR complaint on my behalf, because she saw what was taking place, but nothing was ever done as it was deemed that the people were probably intoxicated and didn’t mean it.

    I do not want to attend this year, but am being told it’s not optional. Can I push back on this?

    1. Sadsack*

      Wow, that is terrible. I have no helpful advice, I just hope you are able to get through the party and work this season without incident. I don’t understand how being drunk and targeting other employees is acceptable to your employer.

    2. fposte*

      Not off your own bat (the fact that you don’t see the non-management employees is exactly why they want you there), but you can talk to your boss about the problem from last year and say you plan to opt out this year unless she has a strong objection.

      It’s up to you how to frame it–it is actually better for the business if you don’t have a second year of HR complaints that would establish a possibly discriminatory pattern, but the downside of that is you don’t want to offer to hide your sexuality if the company finds it awkward. And probably you’re mostly just personally interested in not exposing you and your husband to harassment and a company that did a shitty job about making clear that’s not acceptable. So how much goes into the conversation will depend on your relationship with your boss.

    4. Justme*

      I’m really sorry that happened to you. Can you speak to the boss who spoke to HR on your behalf about not wanting to go?

    5. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      Do you live in a state with anti discrimination protections for sexual orientation? That might make you more sure about pushing back or not.

      Also, I’m so sorry. I’m a lesbian and my wife is bisexual. And most everyone at our jobs has treated us with respect. When I did encounter an anti gay colleague, they first told him to stop, then warned him he would get let go of the project if he didn’t and moved my cube away from him, then fired him.

      1. MillersSpring*

        Three cheers for your employer. Any harassers need to be disciplined on Monday morning. It’s BS to make it OK because they were drinking.

    6. Dawn*

      Uh… yeah? “Last year I was harassed by attendees because I am gay and brought my husband. HR did nothing. I will not be attending the party this year, as I do not feel welcome nor safe.”

      Wow that is ultra crappy and I am so sorry your company is so terrible that they can hand waive away homophobia with “Oh they were probably drunk and didn’t mean it” That is NOT OK.

    7. Sophie Winston*

      Do you live in a state with an anti-discrimination law? Do you feel you are a valued employee?

      If yes to both, I’d push back hard.

      If not, I’d have a last minute family emergency.

      I feel your pain. Good luck.

    8. Viktoria*

      Who is telling you it’s not optional? Your boss sounds like she had your back last year, so I’m hoping it’s not her. If that message is coming from HR or someone else, ask your boss to advocate for you and help you push back. Given that nothing was done to address the harassment last year, you have a strong case for not going.

      Also, your company sucks and I’m very sorry this happened to you.

    9. Caro in the UK*

      Because you’re boss sounds supportive, I’d discuss it with her and see if you could both go to HR about this together. Two people presenting a united front might have more of an effect (and there’s less risk of you being painted as a problem employee who’s overreacting).

      I say “might” because HR’s lack of action on last year’s complaint doesn’t bode well. But I think that this approach has the best chance of success. And good luck, I’m really sorry that you’re having to deal with this.

    10. Jenbug*

      That’s awful :(

      I would reach out to HR and say “in light of the events of last year’s party, I am not comfortable attending this year unless there is a specific policy announced prior to the event regarding anti-harassment”. Because people who felt it was okay to act that way last year are very likely to think they can continue to behave that way since (a) they weren’t told that it WASN’T okay and (b) well… recent events have made a lot of people think bigotry is socially acceptable.

      If that’s not possible, then I agree with the person who suggested a last minute family emergency.

    11. BRR*

      WTH is up with intoxication being a get out of jail free card? This HR person and/or your HR department sucks. Even if sexual orientation harassment is legal in your state, your company should not tolerate it and should not excuse it due to intoxication. Echoing others for who is requiring it? I would absolutely push back and say you felt unsafe. If sexual orientation is a protected class in your state I would emphasize that you were discriminated against based on your sexual orientation and will not be attending the party.

    12. Marisol*

      Anyone who harasses someone else at a party, for any reason, should be sent home in a cab. In addition to the obvious reason that harassment should not be tolerated, there is a liability issue when companies allow guests to drink to the point of intoxication and bad behavior. Is it possible to get some sort of policy established where guests who misbehave will be escorted out? If HR won’t create a formal policy, than perhaps it can be addressed informally: can your boss have a conversation with the harassers, or whoever it was that brought the harassers as their guests, explaining that their behavior was out of line, and that they will be escorted out if it happens again? Instead of addressing the past, in other words, which they clearly won’t do, maybe you can still have a plan of action to protect you going forward.

      At the very least, perhaps the boss can communicate disapproval and imply that demonstrating poor judgement could negatively impact their career.

      It makes me sad to think that you’re basically being bullied out of your own office party when you did nothing wrong.

    13. Marisol*

      Any party guest who harasses another guest should be escorted out, and if they are drunk, they should be sent out in a cab. Can you get HR to create a policy stating this? They may not want to address the past bad behavior, but they can get out in front of it for future parties. If they are going to require your presence, then they have to guarantee a respectful, non-discriminatory environment. I would approach it like, “how can we make sure this gets shut down if it happens next time” and make sure someone at that party has the authority to kick people out. Plus, there are other liabilities for companies that allow party guests to get intoxicated. It would be a mistake for the company not to address this.

      If creating new policy is too big a deal for whatever reason, HR should speak directly to the offenders, or whichever employee brought the offenders as guests, and let them know that this year, if they misbehave, they will be sent home. Or possibly your boss could do this, if HR won’t.

      At the very least, your boss should speak to the employees about what she saw, and depending on the hierarchical relationship between them, explain that demonstrating bad judgement can negatively impact one’s career. I would be very open and direct about their very bad behavior, rather than taking pains to be discreet. I’m not a big fan of “shaming” people, but this is an appropriate time to use shame. It doesn’t matter what the reason is–you don’t act obnoxious to other party guests, period, and you should be called out if it happens.

      It makes me sad to think that your solution is to bow out of your own office party when you have done nothing wrong. Please push back!! Your company is obligated to protect you!!

    14. The Rat-Catcher*

      “nothing was ever done as it was deemed that the people were probably intoxicated and didn’t mean it. ”

      Even if we stipulate that this asinine excuse is valid, unless they are banning alcohol this year, I see no reason the same thing won’t happen again. I’d bring that up. I’d be willing to bet they’d rather hold people accountable for their actions or exempt you from attending than have a booze-free party.

    16. bluesboy*

      So sorry to hear that. Being drunk is not an excuse for anything, and your HR knows that (I’m sure if someone had thrown a punch or crashed their car into the party while drunk) we wouldn’t be hearing that!

      As a concept, I would consider going IF the company has taken action to avoid it happening again, despite not taking action against the individuals concerned. Have they added something about discrimination to their company handbook? Have they spoken to employees to warn them to behave or this year there will be consequences? If not, like you, I wouldn’t want to go.

      I would probably speak to whoever is insisting on attendance and ask them “what is the company doing to ensure that the homophobic abuse of last year will not be repeated?” It might at a minimum make them think about it, and maybe give the offenders a warning.

      Go or not, good luck with it!

    17. Observer*

      Someone needs to have a talk with HR, as they’ve opened the company to a HUGE liability. You see, if someone gets harassed at a work function for impermissible reasons, then it doesn’t matter if the people who did the harassment were drink or not. It’s the responsibility of the company regardless. And because it’s mandatory, it’s even more of an issue.

      Someone, perhaps your boss, need to tell HR that if they are going to have a work event, then their staff needs to be protected, or they’re going to lose any discrimination suit that anyone (including the DOL and EEOC) might bring against them – even if it’s brought by someone other than the person being harassed, since it shows a pattern of irresponsibility on the part of management. Making attendance mandatory, makes things worse. And, if you are mandating attendance AFTER such an event, well, I suspect that their legal team would not be too happy.

  38. Reel Big Fish*

    I have an interview coming up! And I have a lot of questions that I hope will help me do better than I have. I’ve been told I interview really well, so I’m not /super/ concerned, but there’s always room for improvement. So:

    – I have resting bitch face. I try to control it during interviews but worry it looks unnatural. Typically, I wouldn’t care to adjust my face to others’ likings, but obviously it matters here. How can I deal with it?

    – Same for body language. I’m really short, so if we’re at a table, it’s even more awkward. I try to keep my hands above the table but when it means my elbows are almost at my shoulders, it’s weird. So, how are you mindful of your body language without it coming across as unnatural?

    – What kind of info are interviewers looking for when they ask if there’s more you’d like to share at the end? Is this a real question or are they just being polite? I have a lot of stuff that often doesn’t get touched on in interviews that I think would really showcase some of what I can/have do/done, but it feels awkward saying, “Yes! Let me tell you about the time I won X award and published Y paper.”

    – How do you track major accomplishments at work and what information do you include (for your personal records)?

    – If I get an offer (I’m going in with optimism), I’d really like to maximize my time between jobs. If they ask about a start date, I’d ideally want something like a month from the offer so I can give my two weeks and take two weeks. Is that reasonable or should I stick with a start date of three weeks ahead?

    1. Scorpio*

      Resting bitch face – try looking like you are listening/engaged. You don’t need to be smiling like a deranged person, but nodding, eye contact, smiling when appropriate, those will all help.

      Body language – if it’s comfortable, just fold your hands and leave them in your lap. Nobody will think twice about that.

      More you’d like to share – they are giving you the chance to address anything you were hoping to be asked about in the interview but didn’t come up. So you may not be able to prepare for that question now, and certainly don’t mention random stuff about yourself that you think is interesting. Use that moment to say something like, “Well, we talked about X, but I think my experience in Y is also important because…”

      Major accomplishments – You can start a file on your personal desktop or wherever that has emails, and a document where you can write up your accomplishments. This will come in handy for performance reviews.

      For the offer – ask their timeline for the position and if they say they want someone “ASAP,” that will give you an idea of what they’re willing to give you to transition.

      Hope that helps. Good luck!

        1. MillersSpring*

          Try scooting your chair back away from the table or desk so that more of your torso is visible. Take notes in your lap or just reach a little further to the desk/table.

          One month to your start date is reasonable, e.g. “I’d like to give two weeks’ notice, then take two more weeks for personal time.”

          Yes, when they ask if there’s anything more you’d like to share, that’s when you can highlight something in your expertise they didn’t ask about. You also can ask them about aspects of the company, role or team that they didn’t address.

      2. Charlotte Collins*

        I agree with these suggestions, but I have an additional suggestion for your hands. Have a notepad and pen ready. You never have to worry about your hands then, and it helps you look and be engaged. (Also, you might be surprised how much you end up using them.

        1. Reel Big Fish*

          I do tend to have those with me and take lots of notes, but don’t like holding the pen when I’m speaking. I talk with my hands on occasion and am mortified at even the idea of it accidentally flying out of my hand and into an interviewer’s face.

          I also have ten pages of notes I took for this interview with some “cheat” answers. I’m hoping to boil those down to some phrases so I’m not walking in looking totally out of touch, but I’m hoping those well help as well.

          Thanks!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      RBF- your tone of voice, exchanging pleasantries and how you answer the questions will help you over come that. Show a helpful/interested tone. Move your eyes around every so often so you do not seem to be staring them down.

      I usually put my hands in my lap if I am not writing or gesturing. You may end up with one hand in your lap and the other hand writing something, this is fine too.
      If the chair has arms you can alternate from lap to chair arms if you like or do elbows on chair arms and hands in lap. I feel comfy that way so I use that a lot.

  39. SNS*

    Any other Philadelphians see that the city will be banning employers from asking job applicants for their salary history?

    3. Audiophile*

      I think this needs to be a cause taken up by more cities/states. I despise this request as part of the application process, especially since I took a 5k cut at my current role.

  40. Michele*

    Oof, so I am kind of freaked out. I have been at my job for 14 years. When I started here, it was a small, but growing company. The founder died, and his successor has turned it into an international behemoth. Now they have decided that there are “international redundancies”. They have offered buyouts to people, but they aren’t very generous, so not many people are taking them up on it. They said that if they don’t get enough volunteers, there will be layoffs after New Years. No one knew this was coming. A good friend of mine is a VP, and he said that there had been a big meeting the day before the announcement, but he didn’t know what it was about.

    I am the primary income earner in my house, and there aren’t any similar jobs in the area. It really sucks, because this is our home. We have friends here and are active in the community. We have been slowly remodeling our house into something we love. When I took the job, they had never had layoffs in the more than 40 years they have been in business, and that was something that attracted me to it.

    I haven’t put in for the buyout–I am going to take my chances. In the meantime, I am polishing my resume and looking for jobs. We will almost certainly have to relocate.

    1. MissGirl*

      What a rotten situation to be in. Sounds you’re doing everything right. What a good reminder to the rest of us that no job is 100% secure.

    2. Triangle Pose*

      Can you start talking to recruiters now? Even if you are taking your changes, it might make you feel a bit better to get a game plan and discuss with a professional about what’s out there. After 14 years with the same employer, it’s possible the landscape is different than what you imagine.

      1. Michele*

        Yeah. I need to reach out to some recruiters. The problem with being in the same place for so long is that I no longer have outside contacts. In some ways, it is like starting over. Right now, I have written my resume, stepped back from it for a couple of days and realized what changes I need to make, and next is having my husband (the English teacher) review it for me. Once I have that and a working cover letter, I am going to reach out.

  41. Rhys*

    My company is hiring right now and my manager has been doing phone interviews all week. This morning she got through basically the full interview with a candidate before discovering that said candidate had no interest in leaving her current job and no interest in working for our company. This is a job she applied for! She had already had a call with HR! Pro tip: if you don’t actually want a new job maybe don’t apply for one? There are plenty of people who would be thrilled to get to the phone interview stage who are actually seeking employment.

    1. Emilia Bedelia*

      I would assume it’s leverage for her current job. She will probably go back to her boss and say something like “look, I got 5 phone interviews without trying- I could leave in a month if I wanted. Pay me more”
      Definitely rude to waste your company’s time!

    2. Collie*

      Maybe she got some information in the course of the interview that was really off-putting for her? I can’t imagine someone would go through all that trouble and waste so much time if they really didn’t have any interest to begin with.

      2. Mints*

        Probably both: “I’d leave if it’s more money and amazing perks and I love everybody I meet and the job function is great.” I think she wasn’t won over like she was expecting to

      3. Rhys*

        She apparently told my manager (after admitting that she didn’t want to leave her current job and wasn’t interested in this one) that even as she was submitting her application she was panicking! My current theory is that since she was a referral maybe the person who referred her pressured her into it, but that still doesn’t explain why she continued after so many steps.

    3. Cookie*

      I just interviewed for a job that I really wanted in a location I had no desire to move to ever. Ultimately, I decided I’d rather prioritize my personal life over my career. But sometimes it takes a little while to figure out your priorities.

  42. Dang*

    Have you ever started looking for a new job when you were reasonably happy in yours? When you started looking, was it a straw that broke the camel’s back situation? A toxic work environment? Or just the need for a change?

    My job is not perfect but I like the people a lot, and the day to day is generally okay. I just can’t shake the idea that I want to start looking elsewhere when I hit 2 years here (in a few months). My max at one company has been 3 years so there’s a big part of me that feels like I should stay unless I find something really fantastic.

    2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      I was happy at my job 2 positions before this one, but I felt under utilized, so I started looking. I ended up in a toxic environment BUT that led to the awesome position I am now in. I miss my job from 2 positions ago. But I am paid significantly more in this new position and get to do work more aligned with what I wanted. My plan is to stay here a few years, then try and find a position that combines the environment I loved from 2 ago with the work from current.

    3. Dawn*

      My job is incredibly comfortable but I am so under-utilized it’s comical. I can *feel* my brain turning into jelly. Since I hate being bored with a passion and get stressed out when I’m not accomplishing anything, I plan to start looking once I hit the 2 year mark.

    4. MissGirl*

      Money was a big one when I realized my cost of living had gone up and my raises hadn’t as much. Also, I worked in publishing so it’s always up and down. At one meeting, our manager talked about how we’d just had the most profitable year ever. Before we could celebrate for one second, she said next year was forecasted to be down and we all needed to do everything we could to be successful. I’m for giving it my all, but I realized in that moment my job was always going to precarious and never pay well. I started looking that week.

    5. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I also have looked around even though I am very happy with my employer and my coworkers both because I was underpaid and because I felt like I wasn’t challenging myself enough. I confirmed that I was underpaid and negotiated a raise (not a counteroffer, but my boss had been called as a reference, so they knew that it was possible that I might leave for better pay), and I started taking on new challenges. If neither of those had happened, I’d probably still be looking and going on the very occasional interview. The best time to look is when you can afford to be picky, not when you’re desperate. I’d only stop skimming the listings if I felt I was seriously overpaid, which I’m not. But I’m not that underpaid either, and the work environment counts for a lot for me.

    6. Caro in the UK*

      Loved my job… interesting work, good pay and mostly great coworkers. But… a micromanaging boss.

      At first it was a minor annoyance that we (the team) has a mutual laugh about. But gradually it began to drag me down more and more until the day I cried on the way to work because my boss was going to be back in the office after taking a three week vacation. That’s when I realised how oppressive the environment had become and I knew it was time to go.

    7. BBBizAnalyst*

      Yes, I like my job for most part but want to relocate to a more interesting city. I’m passively looking.

    8. Ghost Pepper*

      I’m in the same situation. I’ve been here for 2.5 years, like my job, like my coworkers & my boss, and feel valued as an employee. Nonetheless, I have been eyeballing job listings just to see what else is out there. I would only leave for an amazing opportunity at a growth-oriented company that paid at least 30% more than what I’m making now. (My significant other says I shouldn’t leave for less than a 50% salary increase.)

      It would take a lot for me to leave. But that’s not to say it couldn’t happen.

    9. Chaordic One*

      It seems to me that every time I’ve had a job that I really liked, something would change that turned the job into something unpleasant.

      Usually, it was a new manager, but other times it was a change in work description (more duties but not a commensurate raise in pay) or something like a new computer system that didn’t work well and made my job more difficult.

    10. MillersSpring*

      Yes, if I leave CurrentJob in the future, it will be for more money, more respect and less hassles.

  43. KTown*

    Job application/interview question:

    I applied to a position that would be a great fit for me in several ways. I worked hard on the application and was really happy to receive an invitation for an interview next week! However, when I went back to look over my application form, I realised that I hadn’t filled out a section that asked about hobbies, interests and voluntary work. I came across the job the day before the application deadline, rushed to fill everything out, and just didn’t see this section at the bottom of a page!

    I realise that this was probably the least important section on the entire form, and I did talk about my volunteering experience in the cover letter section (the job is at a charity and that section asked for a discussion of work with vulnerable groups), and obviously, I got the interview. The application stipulated that you should only apply if you were available to interview on one particular day (I hadn’t seen this before, but have now seen it on a few applications within the same sector), so I assume they wouldn’t have invited me for an interview unless they were very interested, since they’ll be interviewing a limited number of people.

    My question is what, if any, steps I should take to address this. Attention to detail is usually one of my strengths, and I also don’t want them to think I left that section blank because I have no notable hobbies or interests! I don’t think bringing it up in the interview is a good idea, since it would draw attention to a mistake I’ve made. Should I be aware of opportunities in the interview to mention my other volunteering experiences? If I’m asked about the blank section, how should I phrase my answer?

    I may be massively overthinking this, but I’ve been in the post-graduation, unpaid intern phase since the summer and I’m really excited about this job. I’m most concerned about how this reflects on my attention to detail. Any advice?

    1. Dang*

      I wouldn’t personally consider that a required section. I would be very surprised if it came up that you didn’t fill it out.

      I’m sure you will have opportunities to talk about your volunteer experience during the interview so I truly would not worry about it!

    2. Scorpio*

      Really really don’t worry about it. If this was the type of application where you also submitted your resume, I can tell you that employers look at your resume more than the computer generated application. Those seem to be for the HR/database more than the actual interviewers.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        Sometimes this is also a section where somebody who doesn’t have a strong work history can try to shine. When I was a teenager, this was considered an important section. And I can see where somebody going back to paying/FT work after an absence would consider it valuable. However, if you have a strong work history, it probably falls into the “nice to know but not vital” category.

    3. SaaSyPaaS*

      If you have an interview, then I wouldn’t even mention it or worry about it. Good luck! I hope it goes well.

      1. Hermione*

        I agree with SaaSyPaaS in that I wouldn’t mention or worry about it.
        For peace of mind, I would maybe have a sentence or two plotted in my head in case it comes up, but I would operate under the assumption that if it does it’ll be in a “What sort of things do you like to do outside of work?” rather than a “You didn’t fill this out. WHY NOT? Don’t you have hobbies?!” sort of feel.

    4. MillersSpring*

      I’m a hiring manager, and I want to assure you not to worry about this. If I even noticed that a Hobbies and Volunteering section was blank, I’d either think that you meant to put all details in the resume section, or I’d maybe guess that you had no hobbies relevant to the job.

      Online applications are a bear, so it’s completely common to have 10 candidates who each fills it out differently–some sections blank, etc.

  44. Scorpio*

    I’m job hunting and I had a tentative offer that was put on hold because of some sort of hiring freeze. That was about a month ago. Now, the manager for that job has asked to call me today. I have two interview next week and one two weeks that I’m waiting to hear back from. If she has an offer now, how do I keep this opportunity while still being able to interview for these other positions?

    1. Michele*

      Depending on the position, they might give you a few days to think about it. “I need to discuss it with my spouse and weigh my options.” The higher up you are, the more time they will give you to think about it.

    2. JustAnotherLibrarian*

      Ask her if you can have a little time to decide on the offer, but you won’t be able (nor would it be fair) to make her wait too long. You may just have to decide if the bird in the hand is worth two in the bush to you.

    3. Scorpio*

      I didn’t mention in my original post but the two jobs I am interviewing for have better pay, and the one that I interviewed for two weeks ago is as close to a “dream job” as I could get. But that doesn’t mean I will get any of the three, so I am worried about losing this opportunity.
      (and I apologize for the typos my office is freezing and my fingers don’t type well when cold)

      1. MillersSpring*

        It’s fair and understandable to state that you have been interviewing with other firms and are weighing other opportunities. They understood this was a risk when they did the hiring freeze. You can ask for a week to make your decision and see if that’s OK. You also can tell them you were hoping for X (try for $5K more than their offer), and see what they say.

        At a minimum, just remember that this is a low offer, and you have three other opportunities.

    4. BRR*

      You can ask for a a couple days to look it over. Any semi-reasonable employer will allow you to do that. In that time you can reach out to the employer you interviewed at two weeks ago and say you have a pending offer but they’re your number 1 choice and ask if they have an updated timeline or something like that. The two you haven’t interviewed for not so much. You’ll have to make a tough choice.

  45. paul*

    Does anyone else think worker protections in the USA are bizarre? If someone has a religious objection to a non-essential job requirement you have to accomodate it, but you can (theoretically) demand that people not eat XYZ (meat, dairy, anything not kosher or halal, whatever) on premise. Heck, in theory you can demand employees not eat/drink any given things off the clock too. You can’t kick off a workplace meeting with a prayer, but you can fire someone for off the clock political speech (at least at the federal level–some states protect workers from that). I know which of those two bothers me *more* (although they’re both bad). Its’ just so…hodgepodge…and there doesn’t seem to be a lot of sense to it, as far as what’s possibly more measurable impactful to employees.

    1. response*

      This is what you get when “society” responds to those who make the most noise. You get piecemeal rules to address the problem right in front of them. And too many care only about what bothers them and have no time for anybody else. But this is also what you get for having the freedoms we have. Do we really want some committee/government entity/person to dictate all aspects of our lives?

    2. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      I think the lack of protection for political activity is a safety issue. I mean, neo-Nazism and the KKK are technically political things, and the extreme right in the US can be very homophobic. Wouldn’t you want to fire someone your Jewish or minority or gay employees don’t feel safe with or who won’t work with them?

    3. Purest Green*

      It is somewhat bizarre, but I suppose that’s what happens in a country started by people who were, in part, fleeing religious persecution.

  46. Career crisis, HELP!*

    Pretty regular commenter, going anon for this:

    A few months ago, I left a job I really liked to take on a new challenge. New Job, though my skills are transferable and I had some knowledge of the work they do from interactions I had with them many years ago when I first started my career, is very different than what I did previously. Let’s say my previous experience is in Inside Teapot Sales for a Teapot Maker, and this new position is at a niche kitchen supply retailer. Though I was hired because of my vast experience with teapot sales, it is actually a very small part of this new job, and lately teapot sales are down and there is not a good indication as to when that will change.

    I took the position to expand my skill set beyond teapot sales. I haven’t been here long yet, but I find myself REALLY missing teapot sales and wondering if I made the right move. For what it is worth, this position was a bump up from what I had been doing, though lately it doesn’t feel that way. It is not as fast-paced as my previous position, and even though it is technically a bump up, I feel like I had much more latitude and responsibility before … no doubt because I had amassed knowledge and contacts in Teapot Sales and in this new role, I’m a total n00b. I’m only just starting to be drawn more into some of the other aspects of kitchen retail. Some days are busier than others (ironically, today is one of them, but I didn’t want to miss out on posting this to the open thread), but then some days I lament what I think might have been a huge misstep in my career.

    Please know – everyone at Niche Kitchen Retailer has been wonderful, and I have no complaints as to the work environment. In fact, in many ways, it is better than the environment was (and, from what I hear, still is) at Teapot Makers, but I realize now that even though there were a lot of Issues there, I really thrived in that environment and felt energized by it. I left Teapot Makers on excellent terms, so I know the door would be open for me to return if I wanted to, but I also know that could put a pretty hefty scar on my resume longer term.

    Also … logically, I KNOW I need to give this work a fair shake and actually get to know the ins and outs before I throw in the towel, and that’s the advice I would give to someone else. I can’t imagine I am the only one on here that has made this kind of move and has had these kinds of initial regrets … can someone talk me down from the ledge? I could use some “It Gets Better” pep talks here! Anyone else been through this? Can you tell me what’s on the other side?

    1. Lovemyjob...truly!*

      Is it possible that this is a slow period? At my company the last several months of the year tend to be really slow and then explode into the fast paced frenzy that I love and that keeps me motivated for work right after the first of the year. Those slow months are slightly torturous though and I always have to remind myself to enjoy the down time because I know it’s going to be gone soon.

      1. Career crisis, HELP!*

        That certainly may play a part, and I am hoping it is. I think part of it is I am not an authority on most aspects of kitchen retail other than teapots, and they aren’t exactly sure where to start in getting me up to speed. I tend to work well with trial by fire, though not a lot of people do so I can see why my boss is hesitant to take that route.

        1. Jules the First*

          You could also try reminding yourself of what you will get out of this – I like to project two years down the line when I’m trying to decide whether to take a job and I find that ‘I’m doing this thing, even though it is uncomfortable now, because in two years I will be pig-in-clover’

          (And I’m doing that as we speak, because I started a new job in a tangentially related field this week and while I’m loving the new hours, the people are really, truly, not my people and I feel soooooo alone….but in two years, this job will leave me with a nest egg, my sanity, and a shiny new skill set that will make me much more valuable)

    2. SophieChotek*

      I agree with lovemyjob…truly! wrote — end of the year is often slower in sales. (Especially if you work in anything like a vendor/supplier to retailers. The retailer stores themselves are desperately hoping make it in the black by Christmas, but, for the most part, they’ve placed their orders months ago with their vendors/suppliers and won’t even talk to vendors unless they run out of something.

      I couldn’t tell if there was a Teapot Maker position in your new company — sounds like you think it’s a better company — could you make sort of lateral move?

      Also, your comment about learning other aspects of kitchen retails seems really germane — and finding out and educating yourself on this aspect seems like that could have potential for growth/added responsibilities/new skill sets.

      1. Career crisis, HELP!*

        Ha, it’s not actually retail/sales … I am just using the teapot analogy! ;)

        To answer your question, though, YES, there is an equivalent “teapot maker” here, in a different department, and that thought has crossed my mind. There is not an opportunity to make that move now, but I would imagine there will be in 2-3 years.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      The thing that jumped at me was going from a fast paced environment to a slower paced environment. That can be tough.

      I always think that it takes a full year to see the “seasons” of a job. Maybe you can talk to others to find out when things are busier/slower. At one job the summer was SLOW and that fall was 90 mph. Once I knew this, I used the summer to get things set for the push, this kept me busier in the summer. It was nothing my coworkers bothered to explain to me so I did not learn it right away.

      The other thing you can do is to look around and see what you CAN beef up that is under your care. Sometimes we have to create our own excitement in our positions.

    4. bluesboy*

      I’m not sure if this is relevant or not, but I changed sector a year ago, and went from managing a team of ten, to almost being a beginner in the new sector.

      They offered me the job because they believed that I have characteristics and skills that were difficult to find, but were well aware that I was not very familiar with the sector.

      Suddenly I went from being the expert, the guru, He Who Knows All, to being the beginner. Doing relatively minor and unimportant tasks, sometimes secretarial in nature so that my colleagues could do the important stuff I didn’t understand yet.

      It was tough! But it’s been 11 months now, and I am constantly being entrusted with more things to do, have carved out a niche for myself and am very happy to have changed.

      Sorry, for making this about me, but…I think it might be relevant because you day that you had amassed knowledge and experience that gave you latitude and responsibilities, and now you feel like a noon. And that’s where I was 6 months ago. So it CAN get better!

      A couple of things I did:
      – Tried to learn about the subject in my free time, reading around it etc
      – stayed positive and did EVERYTHING I was given quickly and efficiently (overheard boss saying “one of the things I like about bluesboy is that when you assign him something, you turn around and it’s already finished! ”
      – Asked for clarification. I was hired not knowing the business. So they know there are things I don’t know. Asking sent the message that I was aware of what I needed to know, and motivated to learn it.

      Please do battle through it! The other side is great!

      1. Career crisis, HELP!*

        Bluesboy, OMG, thank you for this! This sounds so very similar to my situation, even the timeline. I’ve been doing all of those things you’ve mentioned. I really appreciate this comment. :)

        1. bluesboy*

          I must admit, when I saw your post I thought, “Wow, deja vu!” Practically the same situation!

          I have a great boss, like my team and am really happy. When I took the job, I wasn’t sure about it, figured I’d give it a year, and now am really glad that I did!

          Best of luck!

  47. AnonyMeow*

    Anyone in middle school teaching in Florida (Tallahassee, to be specific)?

    A relative of mine is trying to find a middle school teaching position in Tallahassee to be with his partner who relocated there recently. (This morning’s post reminded me of the situation for sure.) For what it’s worth, he’s a phenomenal teacher–he’s dedicated, firm and kids trust him. He’s been teaching for over a decade in a pretty tough district in Illinois, has a master’s and 5-ish years of admin experience. He also taught community college a while back, but decided to focus on middle school where he can have more significant impact on the kids’ future.

    We could really use some pointers around when to look, where to look, whether to attend job fairs, etc.; anything really. I’d appreciate any advice!

    1. Camellia*

      No advice on teaching jobs but feel compelled to say that I spent four years in Tallahassee, working a contract, and that was three years too long. It is a small college town, one mall, one movie theater, and if you are not into college football, not much to do. Also the food is terrible. Truly terrible, like you can’t even count on the food chains to produce consistent quality food. The Cracker Barrel and the Logan’s Steakhouse were the only two that had decent food. I wish I was exaggerating but I’m not. Several times we drove a couple of hours to Lake City just to eat at a Bob Evans.

      I will say, though, that the people there are the nicest, friendliest, people we’ve ever met. My husband has lived many places coast to coast and he agrees – they are as good as the food is bad!

      1. AnonyMeow*

        Uh oh, that might be a problem–they both like good food–though it does sound like she’s managed to find some good hole-in-the-walls already, so it might turn out okay for them. :P

        But I do think you are on to something. It seems to be an isolated town with not much around, so the prospect of him finding something nearby might not be realistic if the city itself doesn’t pan out. :( She’s there for a limited time, for a couple of years, but they want to get out of their original location, so I’m hoping he will be able to find something down in FL.

    2. Jenbug*

      I have a friend who recently relocated to Florida (Jax) and was able to get into the local school system by starting out as a sub. That might be an option for him?

  48. Lovemyjob...truly!*

    I’m really sensitive to noises. I forgot my iPod this morning. The woman who sits in the cube directly behind me has long fingernails which she uses to type with so the already annoying clickity-clack of the typing is even worse. On top of that she’s a belcher and a sniffer so I’ve had to listen to her burps and snorts all morning. I already don’t like this woman but today I want to shake her until her head pops off. Sigh! I wish my husband didn’t have our car so I could at least run home at lunch for the iPod for the rest of the day! 5PM is going to take FOREVER to get here!

    (Listening to music on my phone isn’t an option since the wi-fi is horrible in here!)

        1. Emi.*

          Is it a filter against streaming, or against those sites? Because US military bands (including the Air Force jazz/swing band, IIRC) have some of their music online for free, and Smithsonian Folkways have some too (although a smaller proportion of their catalog). Would that get you around the filters?

    2. paul*

      Does your phone have a microSD slot? I’ve got 128 gigs of storage on mine (about 50 gigs of music, about 20 of pictures, rest is empty).

    3. H.C.*

      If Wi-Fi is awful, can you listen off your mobile network instead? Esp if you have a carrier that doesn’t count music streaming towards data usage.

    4. Charlotte Collins*

      This doesn’t help you now, but this is why I always kept a cheap radio (with earbuds) & batteries in my desk drawer. I think it helped my sanity, and it wasn’t something that anyone would be tempted to take from my desk.

  49. Miaw*

    If you do an excellent job, but people don’t like you, can you get fired? I have started a new job. My bosses have given a feedback that I have done a good job and is their star employee. But then they receive some anynomous feedback that I unintentionally offend some colleagues. It is bad enough that the big boss called me to the office to talk to me about how ‘building a team that fit is very important’. I am very saddened and shocked because all of my colleagues have been very friendly and none of them show displeasure.

    This feel insidious and make me feel extremely demoralized that it caused me great mental stress.

    1. Scorpio*

      I would say to limit your interactions with people to very surface level small talk. Try to limit ANY opportunity to offend, annoy, or even be conspicuous to anyone. Your new mission is to be unnoticeable when you are not needed. It sucks, and it is demoralizing, so you may want to look for another job if you don’t want to live like that.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I’ve tried that and it is an absolutely shitty way to be, esp if you’re not the type who is naturally closed off and quiet.

    2. Maggie*

      Are you able to understand why people were offended? Is it behavior you can change? Or are you totally blindsided by this?

    3. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      Reprimanding you without letting you know what the offense was is poor management in my opinion (unless they did and you just didn’t include it). Is it something social or work? Do you have a brusque way of speaking that needs to be adjusted when discussing work issues? Or is it that you don’t align socially? The fixes to these things in building a team are different, so you really need more information to move forward and “correct” the issue.

      1. Miaw*

        The issue was very clearly specified and it is work related. My management is good but I am a naturally anxious person so it has been killing me mentally and morally.

        1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

          Do you understand the complaint – meaning, does it make sense? Or does it seem like just a bad personality fit that can’t be corrected?

          1. Miaw*

            My colleague sent me 3 e-mails within 4 hour to ask about the exact same question. I got offended because I am already working on the request within 5 minutes of looking at the first email. The first, second and third emails were copied to the entire office. So I told him through skype that there is no need to email multiple times within 4 hour because I already saw the first email. I said the matter factually – that there is no need to send same emails within 4 hour ( i didn’t even mention that I got offended or that it is offensive). He then forwarded the entire skype conversation to my boss without me knowing. It is surprising because he didn’t show any kind of displeasure openly towards me. I just felt very sick and betrayed.

            1. Miaw*

              I have to add – the said colleague sit just behind me (literally just 2 metres away). Why would anyone sent 3 emails witn 4 hours if the person could just easily walk to me and ask whether I am already working on the request.

              2. hbc*

                Just like he could have walked over to you and asked about the email, you could have called out to him “Got your email, on it.” Or after you saw the pile of emails (I’m assuming you didn’t just ignore emails 2-4), walk over and tell him, “Hey, no need to cc everyone, I was on it, and you could have checked in with me.”

                The thing is, you might be doing your tasks well, but you might not be contributing to a well-functioning company, and I don’t mean like you need to hold hands and do trust falls and all that. If someone sends me an email and I quietly work on it for four hours, they don’t know when to expect me to be done, and that might completely disrupt their day. He didn’t handle it beautifully, but neither did you, and the fact that he’s ccing lots of people and your boss is having the conversation means that you’re probably contributing more than your share of the problems.

                I’m sorry, I know this puts you in a tough spot. I would try to act as if others have good intentions (i.e.: the 4 emails were about trying to get work done, not poking at you), be crystal clear about your actions and explain them nicely (“I’m working on that email now, should be done in about 5 hours, let me know if that doesn’t work for you” or “I don’t check emails when I’m deep in a project like this, so Skype or in person is best for updates”), and try for a few niceties like asking people about their weekends or offering to get coffee.

                1. Wheezy Weasel*

                  hbc’s suggestion is good:
                  “I don’t check emails when I’m deep in a project like this, so Skype or in person is best for updates”
                  You’re not really criticizing their constant emails, just redirecting them to how you’d best be contacted in a situation like this so that they know it’s also inherent on them to try something else. I had a colleague with a message on his voicemail greeting saying ‘I’m constantly working out of the server room, email is the best way to reach me’ and in 10+ years at the company, he never had a complaint, because he phrased it as a way that he was accommodating others rather than his own preference.

            2. fposte*

              Oh. Yeah, he was obnoxious, but that wasn’t a good response to him, I’m afraid, and I’d want to know if you’d done that if I were your boss, so I don’t think that’s a betrayal.

              It’s almost never a good plan to chastise a co-worker. You can ask for what you want, eyeroll and ignore, or take the matter to your supervisor if it’s a problem, but telling him to knock it off over a pretty mild and ignorable annoyance (it’s really not inherently offensive) isn’t good communication. It doesn’t matter that his communication isn’t good either, because as your boss I’m interested in how you solve problems, not in your right to perpetuate them.

              It’s not the end of the world to have done, but especially as a new employee this was a misstep, because it suggests that this might be a regular thing rather than a rarity. So think about ways you’d respond instead that are focused on team productivity rather than individual annoyance, and even consider apologizing. “Bob, I’m sorry I snapped at you; I was pretty startled at the email volume. How about in future I make sure to respond with a rough estimate of how long it’ll take me to answer the question when I get an email that will take a while?” (Whether that’s appropriate will depend somewhat on your job and his, but consider it.)

              1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

                I agree. When you receive a request from this coworker in the future (whether it is in person or via email) respond via email with an estimate for completion, or if that isn’t possible, just a note that you received it and are working on it and will update him when you know more. Apologize to him for snapping, and next time you sit down with your bosses, let them know you are working on your communication with said coworker and it shouldn’t be a problem moving forward

              2. Miaw*

                Thank you for this perspective. I will keep it in mind. I genuinely though I was not wrong until you point that out. Am i going to get fired for behaviour problem now?

              3. Miaw*

                @ people here

                You all have really good perspective. I hope you don’t mind if I ask your opinion about yet another email drama at work today. A client sent a request to a group email. There are more than 20 people in the group email. I am the only person in the office responsible for the client and it is very obvious that it is my responsibility to work on that request. I have already spoken to my boss in the morning (before the email came) and we have established that i am responsible for the client. Within 5 minute of email arrived, I replied the client with what they need. My boss is also copied into the group email so he should have known that I have replied. But then he sent another email request to me with the entire group copied to work on the request. Apparently he sent multiple requests because he didn’t see that I have got the request completed.

                I got quite upset for being told to work on things that I have done.
                TL;DR my office is quite bad at even noticing ‘i got it’ type of emails and people always send multiple follow-ups for things that have already been completed. Which is EXACTLY the reason I got tired of sending ‘i got it’ email to begin with because nobody read them.

                I got very upset because I feel that multiple reminders from my boss to work on things simply signal that he doesn’t trust me. It is extremely demoralizing.

                I am the type of person that really hates getting told twice because I complete the job at the very first request ( that’s why I am a star employee). Am I being too sensitive if I feel that people reminding me (within’10 minutes span of client sending request and me completing it) signify that they don’t trust me?

                1. Jenbug*

                  Yes, you are being too sensitive and I say that as someone who gets upset about things like that as well. You’re aware that your boss likely didn’t see your email because of the volume in his inbox. Some people prefer to ‘over’ communicate and it’s likely that your boss replying to ensure you knew to handle it was not indicating a lack of trust, but in wanting to cover his bases.

                  It’s difficult sometimes, but you have to step back and not take things personally. Like I said, I’ve been there, especially when people say things that I interpret as them not trusting me to do my job, but it’s rare that people have malicious intent in those situations.

                2. hbc*

                  I was about to tell you that being reminded like this is nothing to be upset about, but I realized I just recently got ticked off at my boss for a reminder/suggestion the other day. It was a spectacularly unnecessary reminder–think “If you’re going to choose a new teapot material, make sure they can hold boiling hot water.” The reminder itself was insulting.

                  I understand the reminder was insulting to you because you know that you’re on it. But your boss doesn’t know, both because you’re fairly new and because he isn’t deep into your daily dealings.

                  Also, it’s likely that your boss was just going through emails in order, didn’t see yours and forwarded to make clear to everyone that it was yours, or maybe even saw your response but wanted it to come *from him* that this was your customer. It’s very possible that no one but you took it as a reminder or insult.

                  Before you react, really try to figure out all the reasons someone could be doing something, and don’t stop thinking if all the reasons are that they’re doing it At You.

                3. Emilia Bedelia*

                  It’s not signifying they don’t trust you. It’s really tough to keep on top of all those emails, especially in a chain like that- my boss does the exact same thing, where she will copy me on emails that I have already gotten to ask me to work on them. She’ll also come over and talk to me about emails that I’ve already replied to, or come over to ask if I need help or have questions on really routine stuff. It’s not because she’s micromanaging or whatever- she just thinks “ok, here’s a task, let me make sure it’s completed”. I realized that she does this because it actually takes more time to look at the task and think hard about whether I’m capable of it, whether she needs to follow up, etc- it’s just her first reaction. You just can’t take it personally, because it’s not, and it will really grate on you (as it already is) if you do.

                  I used to have the same gut reaction (of “i already did this!” “why don’t you trust me!”, etc) and I realized it’s because I wasn’t confident in my work and wanted to prove to my boss that I’m on top of things, responsible, etc. Especially if you’re new-ish, the best way to do that is just to take care of stuff, and don’t worry about things like getting emailed twice about the same thing. Really, don’t take this personally, because it absolutely is not.

                4. The Rat-Catcher*

                  Over-CCing is more of a thing to roll your eyes at than a real concern. I hear you that you’re reading it as “Not only do I not think you’re doing your work, but I feel it necessary to call you out about in front of everyone.” But it’s worth considering that might not be what’s going on here. I have a coworker that hits “reply all” on EVERYTHING. And I have another that CCs our supervisor for things that we really could have taken care of internally. It’s annoying, but it probably doesn’t have all the implications that you’re seeing.

                5. Marisol*

                  On the one hand, your colleagues sound like a bunch of obnoxious oafs; on the other hand, yes, you are being too sensitive. Try to derive some satisfaction from the fact that, by the time your boss asks you for something, you’ve already done it. If he emails the whole group, then you respond cheerfully, “yes, I did that when I got in at 8:00 this morning. It’s handled! :) And you make sure to come off as being happy, not snippy.

                  So instead of seeing these emails as reprimands, you can see them as an opportunity to remind everyone how efficient you are. They aren’t insults, they are ego strokes! That’s my re-frame.

                  Furthermore, I think you are worrying needlessly about being fired. You are oversensitive to criticism, period. So you’re being oversensitive to your boss’s feedback, just like you are oversensitive to everyone’s obnoxious emails. A boss who doesn’t think twice about pestering you with emails is also not going to think overmuch about how he corrects you. What is a big deal to you is probably not a big deal to him.

                  It might help to spend some time contemplating perfectionism. Is this a trait you have, and if so, to what degree does it help you, and to what degree does it hold you back? And how inclined are your coworkers toward perfectionism? Or toward introversion or sensitivity? The better grasp you have of yourself and how you differ from your coworkers, the better able you’ll be to develop coping strategies.

                  And for whatever it’s worth, I don’t think your skype message was such a big deal either. I am not convinced that your manager handled this well. It seems to me that one stupid malcontent complained about a skype message–it I had been your manager, I might have told the guy that you were right because he was being obnoxious. But sometimes manager think they have to act on any complaint they receive, whether valid or not.

                  As long as you didn’t respond by attacking him, I don’t necessarily think that you erred. Going forward, you won’t react that way given that the office culture doesn’t allow it, but I wouldn’t say that definitively, what you did was wrong.

                  One last idea – can you schedule a follow up conversation with your boss where you come to an understanding of how well you fit it, and whether or not your job is in fact in jeopardy? I really doubt it is, but I don’t see the harm in getting some clarification from him. You are asking us to speculate on your situation, which is fine, but I think it would be even better to go back and dialogue with him directly.

                  Hope this helps. I’m sure you are a star performer and an asset to your company!

            3. paul*

              Did you let him know you were working on it, and possibly (if viable) give him a timeline for when you’d be done?

        2. fposte*

          I can’t tell from what you’re saying–it was specific enough to be actionable? Like “We have a report that you were barging in on employees when they were talking about private matters and then you insisted on an immediate answer; please make sure you check to see if the time is appropriate for an unscheduled drop-in and be respectful of other people’s time”? I’m hoping it was that, but I’m not going to bet on it.

          What you do in any case is come up with a plan. Anxiety feeds on passivity, and anxiety may well be contributing to the problem. So what do you want to do? You could come up with a plan to talk to your boss and outline how you’re going to amend your self-presentation as well as your commitment to working well with the team; you can identify other points of contact that might mitigate people’s uncertainty about what you mean (IOW, hang with people so they have more context); you can get some informal coaching from friends on the exchanges that haven’t gone the way you thought they did; etc., etc. But find something to *do* in response.

    4. Miaw*

      I no longer have any interest to make friends at work and happy enough to just do my job well. I am just concerned if I will get fired just because people don’t like me (despite doing a good job)

      1. fposte*

        I think you need to do something fun on the weekend and clear your brain. You made a mistake and got pulled up for it; that doesn’t mean you can’t make friends at work ever. I think you’re just in recoil mode right now, and if you practice some solid self-soothing you can get beyond this.

        1. Mints*

          Yeah and even if this guy goes in the “Annoying baby” bucket forever, there are other people you can be friendly with (because it sounds like you want that.) And it’ll be super easy to avoid this in the future – now you know your office likes when people respond “On it!” to those types of emails.

          This sucks, but Fposte is right (always) I think you’ll blow over this yourself once you have enough time away from work

      2. NaoNao*

        First, let me say I’ve been in your shoes to a degree, and while this may sound a bit harsh, this is a VERY hard lesson I had to learn:
        Part of doing a good job is getting along with others and not ruffling feathers.
        Your job, whatever the technical description is, is actually ‘making your boss look good’. So whatever you do should be filtered through that lens.
        Annoying things like people not reading emails or seeing emails or sending tons of reminder emails happen at every job. Part of being a valued employee is the ability to roll with this with a minimum of fuss, even if it’s wrong/misguided.
        I’ve been barked at or hurt by being reprimanded many times. I have been ‘ambushed’ by former bosses over IM with pointed questions about clocking out at 4.55 when I was on salary and was working through lunch; that kind of thing. I’ve been ignored, talked over, yelled at, asked to do things all over at the last minute, you name it. I found the solution was to a) find a job where people were very reasonable and professional and b) always, always, always cheerfully agree or provide what was asked for, and then complain or vent in private.
        It’s unlikely that you will get fired over one or two “clap back” moments. But I’d work on a plan to dial back the hurt and upset over this.
        Try to take the personal out of it. If your boss is asking for updates and you’ve already given them, I would just give them the update again, with no comments or huff.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Just my opinion, but it is much easier to keep a job of at least some of the people like you.
        You don’t have to be best friends but it’s nice to have cordial relationship. You can be friendly and not be like regular friends.

        I am reading down through and it looks like the common thread is email. Maybe read up on email etiquette. I realize you probably know most of the stuff but putting fresh at the forefront of your thinking might help.

        The next thing is realize that these people are not very good with email, they ignore it then they over use it. This is what they do. It’s okay for them to do this to each other because they know each other. Those rules do not apply to new people. Expect them to want you to answer them promptly. Expect them to send you the same email over and over.

        Let them get to know you. I think once they get to know you they will dial it back. For the moment use a few more words in email so they can “hear” your tone of voice.

        I understand you are discouraged, get some extra rest this weekend. New jobs can be totally exhausting and that exhaustion can cloud our judgement. Make decisions when you are less tired and feeling calmer.

    5. Susan the BA*

      Sure, you can get fired for that. But it would be ridiculous of your bosses to fire you because of some anonymous feedback without giving you notice of what specifically you should be improving. If the bosses tell you ‘you need to stop telling those offensive racist jokes’ or ‘you need to listen to what colleagues are saying instead of interrupting them’ or ‘you need to stop cheering for the Yankees and become a Red Sox fan’ or whatever they have decided is offensive behavior, then you can decide what to do – either change your behavior or start looking for another place to work. I strongly support managers getting rid of employees who create a negative work environment for others, no matter how well they perform otherwise, but unless the bosses can actually point to what you’re doing ‘wrong’ this could just be a case of your colleagues being jealous of your ‘star employee’ status.

    6. Miaw*

      I accidentally typed ‘anonymous’ in my earlier comment above. I apologize, it is my mistake. I must be too tired after work (or just got too depressed to think) The feedback were not anonymous. Some people went to my bosses about their concern – but I don’t know who they are (I only know about the one that forwarded the skype convo – because my boss told me)

      1. paul*

        If it’s multiple people, you might need to really look at your behaviors. It’s like the saying, run into a jerk, you ran into a jerk. Run into jerks all day though….

        In your other post you mentioned a person emailing you 4 times in 3 hours; but you didn’t mention responding to the first email. How are you at two way communication with your coworkers? If you get a request do you let them know it’s received and give them a timeline for working on it (or if it isn’t in your wheelhouse, direct them to the right person or whatever)?

        1. Miaw*

          To answer everyone – no I didn’t do a quick reply that I am on it. I usually do this, but I didn’t because I was already annoyed at the second email. Our SLA is 24 hours, and my thinking is that I hate flooding anyone’s inbox with unsubstantial emails (hence my extreme annoyance at being told 3 times).. Thinking back, maybe I should have done that.

          I am genuinely shocked that most people think I am also in the wrong. I was sure that the person is just being annoying and I genuinely didn’t realize What I did was wrong. Maybe I should take a hard look at myself now.

          1. paul*

            It was when you said more than one person had gone to your boss, at least for me. Obviously we don’t have all the details, since we weren’t there, but it’s worth thinking about if there’s specific behaviors/actions that you should look at changing, if they’re the focus of multiple complaints.

          2. Sadsack*

            I would have replied to the first email, but most definitely the second email so the person asking knows. Sitting silently and stewing over receiving emails asking for status seems passive aggressive and is not exactly what I would call team work. Is there any reason that you thought it was better to ignore your coworker rather than just give him a quick response? If you have acted in a similar manner in the past with regard to communicating with your coworkers, that may be the reason that he chose to send you the question in writing. Sorry that you were reprimanded, but at least now you know and can change your behavior accordingly.

            1. Marisol*

              Ok, having read this new info, my theory is that people are spamming you because they feel blown off by you. So yes, answer the first email they send. And I get the impression that you are deciding to set the parameters of communication, when in reality, one person doesn’t unilaterally decide how communication will go. Communication is a back-and-forth dynamic between two (or more) people.

              Imagine if you saw someone in the breakroom and said hello to them, and they ignored you and walked right past you. That would be rude, right? When someone speaks to you, you’re supposed to respond. People are emailing you expecting a response, and your failure to respond could be causing a problem.

              You say you don’t respond to emails because you, “hate flooding anyone’s inbox with unsubstantial emails” but you need to understand that in making that judgment call, you are making a decision on someone else’s behalf. If someone emails you, they expect a response. So it’s not appropriate for you to decide not to email back. The reason they emailed you in the first place is to get a response…does that makes sense? I’m parsing it out rather finely and I hope it doesn’t sound too strange. Just look at it like, if someone emails you, it is like saying “hi” to you in the breakroom, and that email deserves an acknowledgment.

              If they keep spamming you, then they’re being obnoxious, but at least for the first time, it’s polite and necessary to respond.

          3. bluesboy*

            Respect to you for not just getting defensive but stepping back and taking a look at yourself!

            Where I think you’re going wrong is saying “of COURSE I will do it, why don’t they trust me?” When in reality it might have nothing to do with trust. Your colleague doesn’t know exactly everything you have to do, maybe his request is something you can do now and will be done in one hour. Or maybe it’s priority number 4 and will be ready for Wednesday. That is information that could change the way he does his job, and it is appropriate for him to ask, and for you to respond.

            The fact he didn’t walk over and check with you is a bit weird and I’m not going to speculate about why that happened. But the next time you start to feel offended ask yourself whether maybe they are asking for an update so as to be better able to plan their work timetable (and so be more productive themselves) rather than just because they don’t trust you.

      2. MC*

        So clearly this person is a troublemaker. Four emails within one hour on the same topic copied to the entire office. So you need to decide if you can manage dealing with this person knowing a bit more about them? Clearly they have influence, otherwise your manager would have put a stop to the tattling behavior of copying everyone on the request and the subsequent skype discussion and informed your colleague that unrealistic expectations are his problem not yours.

        However, since you know you have a problem co-worker and less than decent manager you can manage the situation or you can wait for it to get worse. My recommendation: Any time this person emails you – respond. Respond even if to say, “got your email, priority work will require the next xx hours of time. I will have an answer for you no later than date/time.” or to say “request received. expected turn around XX hours” Then make sure you meet your obligations or you provide a new turn around time. It’s more work for you yes, and it’s stupid that you should have to do that but this may be how they operate.

        1. paul*

          Within 4 hours, not an hour. That kind of changes it, particularly if it’s a time sensitive thing. I’d generally expect to hear back within 1/2 a work day on something like that–not having it done, but a quick “OK, got it, workingo n it” or something.

          1. MC*

            Reading is hard on Fridays… Even so – 4 emails in four hours is still excessive unless there was some pre-discussed delivery or turn around time.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I read it as four hours and I thought the guy was over the top. HOWEVER, it has always been my impression that when things go wrong it is the new person’s fault. With that in mind, OP, put your actions above reproach.

          Personally, I would have answered all four emails.
          “Yep, got it, working on it.”
          “Yep, still working on it.”
          “Yep, still working on it, almost there.”
          “Yep, got it done, here you go.”

          New people get watched more closely and get held to a tighter sense of the rules- just my experience, though.

    7. Susan*

      Yes, you can get fired because people don’t like you. Sometimes, people feel threatened by a star employee and intentionally try to get the star employee in trouble or fired because of it, and I have to wonder if that could be what’s happening here. What you said to your coworker was not the best response, but really not so egregious that he had to take it to the boss, so it seems like he just wanted to get you in trouble — and he succeeded.

    8. BestInShow*

      You some like me five years ago.

      Quick tips:
      Don’t obsess about the way you come across to everyone. This will lower your confidence and make you come across even worse.

      Go back to your boss and say “I thought about your feed back and I really want to improve. I realize email is one place i struggle. Do you know any resources or have any suggestions for how I can improve?

      When you get negative feedback thank the manager. Some one struggling who takes feed back well is much more likely to be kept on them one who bosses draft coaching.

      Do not tell anyone how to do thrower job or make suggestions for improvement. This takes a delicate skill and you are not there yet. That’s OK. You will learn.

      This is really really hard for folks who don’t naturally get it. However it is mandatory for work

      Good luck!

    9. NW Mossy*

      It’s certainly possible to be fired for not fitting in with the team, but becomes substantially less likely if you don’t repeat the problem behavior. You say you have good management, and good management will continue to give you feedback and coach you if they see you struggling, whether it’s with content or interpersonal stuff. Most (if not all) jobs require that you both do the content of the work well but you also do it in a way that helps you have good relationships with your colleagues.

      This is why your big boss met with you – to let you know that what you did in this situation didn’t work and to ask you to handle it differently next time. It’s a kindness to tell you that, because now you know and you can do something different in the future, such as swinging by Bob’s desk and saying “Got your request – working on it and should have it done by X!” in a warm tone.

      One of the hardest things about working is learning to take feedback not as a criticism of you as a person or an indication that people don’t like you, but instead as information that’s specifically intended to help you be your best. We all are capable of bobbling an interaction or flubbing a task – it happens. I’m a boss and I got a piece of feedback from one of my directs recently that put me back a step too. But in the end, take it in the spirit that the person giving you feedback genuinely wants to help you, not hurt you.

    10. Triangle Pose*

      Miaw, I’m glad you’re engaging with the commenters and I think you are getting some good advice. I notice from your initial post and your responses that you are drawing a clear line between being good at your job (“doing an excellent job,” “being a star employee”) with people not liking you and you don’t think you should be fired for the latter given the former. I would caution you not to separate these things completely. Yes, your job has SLAs and it’s likely true you are a star employee in this regard. However, a baseline part of your job is to work well with your colleagues, your clients and generally everyone in the work setting. It’s not a popularity contest where you have to be the very best liked person, but it is a bare baseline requirement of your job to at least get along pleasantly and civilly with everyone at work.

      I’ve worked with many people who think that if they get “the work” done, they can get away with being surly or generally not get along with anyone and whenever it is brought up as a performance issue, they are defensive that their review/performance should not be impacted just because people don’t like them. It is better to think about getting along well with others as PART of your job, instead of framing the situation as “I’m good at my job, I’m not here to make friends, I shouldn’t be fired because people don’t like me.”

      1. catsAreCool*

        Yeah, you want to get along with people even when they’re annoying (sorry). And 4 hours with no response when someone asks a question, well, that can seem like a very long time if this question is time-sensitive.

    12. Student*

      If you work in the US and don’t have an explicit contract that says otherwise (most people don’t), you can get fired at any time for no reason at all. You can get fired for lots of silly-sounding reasons, pretexts, etc. The only things you can’t get fired for are a handful of formally protected classes: usually your race, being over a certain age, religious practices, your gender, nationality, etc. The exact protections vary by state and are a mix of state and federal laws. Even those protections do not always apply – there are exceptions for certain types of jobs and small employers.

      1. catsAreCool*

        True, but most competent bosses won’t fire people without a good reason. Irritating other people on the team could be considered a good reason unless you’re working to change.

  50. NotMyUsualUserName*

    In the comment section of Thursday’s update, a few of you discussed moving from academic to non-academic positions. I’m curious how you did that. Did you have to leave your academic position without having something lined up?

    I’m considering leaving the workplace I’m currently in, a small liberal arts university on the West coast where I teach science/math, and since I’m not actually going to be free to start work until May/June, I don’t know how it’s possible to apply for jobs. (To make everything even more fun, my boss wants about six months’ lead time when I plan to leave the job.) I’m curious to hear what other people’s experiences are like.
    To make matters worse, my boss wanted to know in mid-November whether I was I’ve applied for a few grad schools, but that’s it.

    2. Ella*

      I left a job teaching elementary school without having anything lined up, but I was in my mid-20s and moved back in with my parents for a year. It was not easy, but it was good to have that security. For the 6 month notice period, I just wouldn’t do that. Apply for jobs a big closer to the end of your semester, and once you get a job give them as much notice as you can. But don’t feel compelled to give a ridiculously early notice date.

    3. BRR*

      You shouldn’t leave without something lined up (unless you’re in the financial position to do so). There’s no telling how long a job hunt will take and it’s easier to find a job when you have a job. I would just not give your boss 6 months notice. That’s an obscenely long notice period in the US and is unreasonable.

      1. Artemesia*

        If you are teaching you should not leave until the end of a term; you probably have a contract for the year and have to break the contract to leave mid year, but that can be done if you give reasonable notice, but not without completing a semester. But 6 months is silly — he can ‘want it’ but you don’t need to give it if you are not leaving them in the lurch at the last minute before a semester begins.

  51. Annie Moose*

    This is only tangentially work-related, but I just have to share… I just checked my email and have a LinkedIn request from a person I went to college with.

    Except it’s probably the person I disliked the most from my degree program (small university, so everyone knew each other), and the two of us never got along, and he’s the guy who screwed up SO BADLY at an event that five years later, those of us who were there still talk about it in awe. (This included him screaming and swearing in front of high school kids who were there for the competition, and not understanding why that wasn’t acceptable behavior. He was not invited to serve as a volunteer the next year.)

    Ummm… nope. Probably will text a college friend of mine to laugh about it, though.

    (in fairness, I hope that he’s matured and learned some professionalism in the intervening time. But he was one of those people who just DID NOT know how to act, socially. Constantly tried to make himself the center of attention, constantly acted like he knew everything even when he totally lacked the skills in question… that whole general “I’m special and don’t have to treat other people with respect” thing)

  52. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Work downtime question:

    I have a contract job that requires a specific professional license. I review thousands of, er, teapots, a day, on a team, as the teapots get sent down.

    But there’s been a bottleneck in stages of this project. Stage 1 is now finishing and it could be between an hour to a day before the Stage 2 teapots come down to be reviewed. My team and I are paid for downtime, and can either stay or leave (not taking pay if we leave).

    So, what is appropriate to do during downtime? It is a business casual office, not too formal in interactions, but we all have graduate degrees, and I’m youngest by 7-10 years. There are cubicles, but they open to a hall. I have two books, and also my Nintendo handheld, with Pokémon. And my phone.

    1. Sophie Winston*

      I always try to keep to professionally related things – this and other professional blogs, self study CPE, that sort of thing. If I’m running out of those on a regular basis, I’m going to be thinking about my resume if not actively working on it. I realize that’s not an option for you right now.

    2. Jules the First*

      Definitely not nintendo – video games are usually frowned upon – and probably not games on your phone either, unless they’re super discreet and to the casual observer it could look like you were doing something work-related. Start with online reading or whatever that’s related to your professional license (I’m sure you’ve got to do a certain number of CPD hours, so use this as a paid opportunity to knock some of that out), followed by online reading that is work appropriate (news, AAM, linkedin), and only once you’ve exhausted that would I turn to your book.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Thanks! This is my first job that actually uses my degree so I apologize if I come off unprofessional or unknowing of norms or impolite.

      1. CS Rep by Day, Writer by Night*

        LOL I wrote a good deal of my first novel during downtime at OldJob! Everyone just assumed I was furiously typing away at something work-related.

      2. Chaordic One*

        I was going to suggest starting your own blog and updating your linked-in and facebook profiles, but a novel is good, too!

    4. Artemesia*

      It is not possible to be discreet in playing games on phone or computer. don’t do that. You should have something professional related to your job you can read or work on e.g. polishing technical skills or improving skill at using excel or other computer program or whatever. It is also sometimes possible to work on other self improvement projects not directly related to the job but nothing that looks like a video game. That sort of thing really messes up one’s reputation.

  53. Christine*

    I interviewed for a great design firm back in November. The interview went well (thanks AAM book! yay!) and they notified me that they will be getting in touch with the partner of the firm after Thanksgiving for a second interview. While I haven’t been contacted regarding a date and time (I was told that the partner is currently traveling on Monday), the manager I initially interviewed with told my career adviser yesterday, who handled the job posting, that I was a top choice! I’m a recent grad so even being considered is a big deal! Haha.

    Does anyone have advice on what I should expect if a second interview comes around? I expected the long hiring process given the responsibilities of the job, but I’m still holding strong.

    1. Jules the First*

      Is it for a design position or an admin position?
      If a design position, be prepared to talk through your portfolio and be honest about your skill set. If an admin position, anything goes….

      If you have more specifics about the role, I can be more specific about answers (I’ve done hiring for both design and non-design roles for three international architects)

        1. Jules the First*

          Of course – I’ll make a note to check back on this thread over the next couple of days.

  54. Sophie*

    Has anyone ever discovered why a boss or coworker didn’t like them? I think my boss was upset because he wanted to hire his own team and couldn’t, so he hated me from day one. I also have a degree that is needed to become manager and I think he either thought I wanted to be the head boss or would get the position and they would be stuck with another female boss.

    1. Nervous Accountant*

      I feel taht way about my boss sometimes, why she doesn’t like me too much, and I just can’t figure out why.

    2. Paige*

      I had a boss in grad school (student worker-type position) who hated me because he hadn’t hired me. He even told me “If I had been the manager for this position when it was time to hire someone, I don’t think I would have hired you.” The craziest part was, the woman who DID hire me gave me great feedback while she was my manager, and kept in touch with me professionally after she had left the position. I also routinely had great feedback from other managers in the department regarding one-off projects that I helped with. This guy was just a whack job.

    3. TheCupcakeCounter*

      On my first day the regional manager told my manager that I was her replacement so to make sure I was on the fast track with the training on classes. So totally didn’t work out since he left out the key information that her transfer request was approved.

    4. NW Mossy*

      Does it matter?

      I’m not trying to be snarky here, but instead to prompt you to think about it. It’s so incredibly common to have colleagues or bosses that we don’t get along with personally, and that’s perfectly OK if you’re still able to interact with each other professionally and respectfully. I’ve certainly worked with and for people I don’t care for, but as long as professionalism is observed, the practical impact of not being natural buddies is small.

      It can become a problem if someone not liking you shows up as inappropriate behavior, such as cutting you off from things you need to do your job, directly undermining your work, or withholding feedback and opportunities. If that happens, you need to address those behaviors. It’s perfectly reasonable to expect professional and respectful behavior. It’s less reasonable to expect them to like you personally, because that’s not necessarily germane to your ability to do your job.

    5. So very anon*

      Yup, I found out why a coworker didn’t like me. Her friend was originally hired for the position I was in, but let go for being unable to do the job. Coworker then tried to get the company to let her do the job, on top of her regular job, before I was hired, but the boss said no and hired me. Additionally, after I was hired, she grew to dislike me even more because my quality of work was much higher than hers, which brought to the higher ups’ attention exactly how poor her work quality was.

    6. Anxa*

      I was more well-liked than her by our group, but she objectively worked harder than me and was more dedicated to the mission. I beat her out for a person she probably deserved (but I had my own strengths that she didn’t). Also, I was another girl. And I think there was some competitive streak about being one of the only women in the higher ranks.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I can’t tell if you are still at the job or not.

      However, one thing I have worked with to some success is to let go of the idea if the boss likes me or not and just focus on myself finding reasons to like the boss. When two people do not know where they stand with each other an awkwardness can set in. It does not take long for the awkwardness to turn to mistrust then to pure dislike.

      It’s a vicious cycle and someone has to stop, this is what I tell myself. The best example is one place where both my coworker and my boss confided in me that they felt the other one did not like them. This discussion when on for months, then months turned into YEARS.

      I suggested to my coworker that he DECIDE to like the boss because she does X, Y and Z very well. No dice.
      I suggested to my boss that two people do not have to like each other they just have to work well together. No dice.
      The longer the concern went on the worse it got. Finally they each decided the other person hated them. (Huh?) Neither one of them could answer the question, “Well do YOU like this person?” But they both “knew for a fact” that the other one hated them.

      See, here’s the thing we can get so rapped up in trying to figure out if a person likes us that we FORGET to figure out if we like them. Unfortunately, our actions/words can reflect our lack of decision making.

      Decide that you like the boss/cohort. If the boss/cohort is not that likable decide that you know this person does X well or is very knowledgeable about Y.

      Our uncertainty about other people CAN come across as us being standoffish, having contempt or pure dislike. Just as we can “read” other people as disliking us, other people can read us as not liking them. It’s in our best interest to find likable points and hold on to that thought.

    8. Artemesia*

      My worst boss discovered that I had voted for another candidate in the search process because a colleague helpfully passed that on. I had served as interim director before he was brought on. He was beyond hostile and attempted to publicly embarrass me in meetings and picked on everything I did. Luckily I had lots of professional/political capital in the organization or he would probably have been able to push me out. It was pretty surreal.

    9. Chaordic One*

      I’ve been in situations where co-workers were disliked because:

      1. They were a member of the LGBT community.

      2. They made inappropriate off-color jokes.

      3. They had hygiene issues.

      4. They asked a lot of questions.

  55. DVT*

    Any tips on what to say after a firing? I had to let go a long-tenured employee who couldn’t get past chronic tardiness. She predated me at the organization and was much beloved. We are in a small industry and I don’t want to throw her under the bus, but when people ask me what happened I get flustered/clam up. Probably won’t be an issue much longer but wondering how folks have handled this.

    1. Scorpio*

      People are probably asking because they’re wondering “Well if they fired beloved Mary, couldn’t I be next?” So I think it’s important to include in your answer something that reassures them that they are safe.

    2. MsCHX*

      “Yesterday was Mary’s last day. We will start searching for her replacement in XX time. In the meantime, Sally will handle X duties and John will handle Y.” And then meet with Sally and John on their temp new duties.

      I always send out this generic, informational message and sure, there’ll be a bit of a rumor mill but, that’s how it goes. The team knows that Mary never got to work on time.

      1. H.C.*

        Or better yet, meet with Sally & John before that announcement so they don’t feel blindsided by that.

        1. MsCHX*

          That’s not necessarily an option. Often times people are terminated with no notice. You can’t tell the team that before the person knows they’re losing their job.

          1. H.C.*

            Oh, I meant a sequence more like this:

            1) let the fired employee A know (obviously)
            2) let the co-workers B & C know that A is no longer with the company, they’ll have to cover X & Y tasks and to maintain their discretion until the official notice.
            3) make the staff announcement the A is no longer with company, and B & C will be handling X & Y tasks in the meantime

            This is how it’s done at several of my workplaces, for any kind of departure or even extended leave of absences. Of course, this may not always be possible depending on the nature of the departure/leave.

      2. Girasol*

        Yes, by all means say that. An organization I was in didn’t do that because they didn’t want to call attention to firings. That made it look like they were trying to sweep something nasty under the rug and made the rumors (which there are bound to be) much wilder.

    3. DVT*

      I appreciate the replies — I’d like to clarify that the major problem is in speaking with partners outside the organization.

      1. Augusta Sugarbean*

        “Saffron is no longer with our organization. Zoe and Kaylee will be handling your account now. Here is their contact information. They will be calling you this week.” (Or whatever contact situation is appropriate.)

      2. MsCHX*

        Yeah there’s no need to explain externally.

        I had someone term earlier this year and her team was looking for the right words to tell her clients.

        “Sue is no longer with the company and Peter will be handling your account from now on”. Because seriously, people leave jobs.

        1. NW Mossy*

          If you want to put the extra layer on it, as the boss, you can do what my company calls a “warm hand-off” – you set up a call with the external party and use it to introduce the new person that’ll be working with them, like so:

          “[As you know], Sue is no longer with the company. I wanted to take this opportunity to introduce you to Peter, who’ll be working with you going forward. Peter’s got 10 years of experience in Spout Design and I think it’ll be a great partnership!” From there, you can turn it over to Peter to introduce himself and so on. It works well and puts the focus on how nice it will be to work with Peter, rather than how sad it is that Sue’s not there.

    4. Artemesia*

      ‘I can’t discuss private personnel matters like that, but it was not sudden and we had worked with Lucia for a considerable time before the decision was made.’ or something like that. The key ideas are 1. this did not come out of the blue and 2. we won’t discuss her private business, just like we wouldn’t discuss yours.

  56. Amaryllis*

    Question about mailbox mix-up and ethics…

    I found a box of candy in my mailbox today at work (we have these little slots/cubbies in the mailroom). I also found an envelope addressed to the person whose mailbox is directly below mine. The box was not labeled so I have no idea if it was meant for me or for the person below me.

    I noticed that there was a box of candy in another staffer’s mailbox. Interestingly enough, there was also an envelope addressed for the person whose mailbox is directly below hers.

    So the question is – should I assume the candy was misplaced and does in fact belong with the envelope? Do I just keep the candy? Do I play detective and try to find out who left it there, and therefore determine who the intended recipient is? (FWIW, there was no tape or anything between the box and the envelope – they were just sitting independently in the mailbox).

    1. Scorpio*

      I think you’d feel better if you gave them both back to the mail person and bought yourself some candy for doing the right thing!

      1. Scorpio*

        Because don’t you think it would be weird to get random candy in your mailbox without a card or explanation? Likelihood is that they go together.

    3. Sophie Winston*

      I’d leave it in your box for a few days. If it’s still there the middle of next week, it’s yours.

    4. Collie*

      It sounds like the person who put it there didn’t realize the labels for the boxes work going down instead of up (or vice versa). I’d put the candy and the card in the box of the person whose name is on the card. It would be awful if the card specifically referred to the candy (“Enjoy the candy!”) and there was no candy for them to find.

    5. Sadsack*

      I say you eat half the candies and put the rest with the box in the other mail box, that way all scenarios are covered!

    6. Amaryllis*

      To clarify – the mailroom person doesn’t put the boxes and envelopes in the mailboxes. He leaves it in a stack (per our protocol) and then one of the secretaries puts them into the mailboxes. The mailroom is not secure – anyone can go in and leave something in a mailbox.

      The envelope looked like it might be an advertising flyer (it was not a greeting card size).

      I definitely do think people mix up the boxes (whether the name is above or below) – it’s happened before.

      I think I’ll leave the candy in my mailbox for now. I don’t know the other person (I know the person exists but have not had any contact over the past 5 years). Maybe I’ll go find them.

      It’s actually not that rare for people to leave me little treats without notes – sometimes it’s my coworkers , sometimes it’s students. It’s usually on my desk, though, so there’s no a question of the recipient. I hate it because I don’t know who to thank!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      One place I worked had a shelf for mail that ended up in the wrong slot. It was not too hard for the rightful owner to see it was theirs.

  57. Nervous Accountant*

    I dn’t even know where to begin. Just lots of little things, nothing serious or crazy that warrants a long thread, just little things driving me crazy. I think I had a panic or anxiety attack (not sure which or what) this morning, it’s not PMS, I’m back to being scared of getting fired every single day this week so far and I dn’t know how I’ll ever survive in any future job or company. Twice in the last 2 months I’ve emailed my boss something and she didn’t respond to it, even though she never ignores anything. so, idk what to make of this. Other than that, I’m just putting myslef in that mindset that getting fired isn’t the end of the world. Easier said than done. I am looking forward to our holiday party and my vacation. Posting this in the work thread because everything outside of work is fine and dandy. Idk.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        No, not really. Nothing solid that I can think of. I’m not droppoing the ball on any client emails (esp since now everything can be tracked).

        In both of those emails, a client left a bad review. I emailed my boss to give her a heads up (before she reached outto me to tell me I messed up) and asked how to proceed with it, or to preemtively give my side of teh story. But no response.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          You did the right thing emailing your boss, particularly if you gave the boss your perspective on what went wrong. My boss is always happy if I email him when something goes wrong, because having my perspective on the issue makes it easier to deal with the angry client, and he gets both sides of the story before he has to deal with the problem.

    2. fposte*

      NA, it seems like you go down the rabbit hole sometimes, which is something I think we can all understand :-). While you’ve had your difficulties in this job, it has seemed like they’ve been pretty clear with you about when your performance is suffering.

      If you haven’t had a check-in with your boss on your performance for a while, it might be worth your taking the initiative to schedule one. Taking agency is likely to help you more than being fatalistic will.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        That’s true and reassuring. There’s nothing concrete that tells me I’ll be let go, but I’ve had that feeling more often lately. I do pass along the good reviews to my bosses, and they actually always have a positive acknowledgement to them, and in the past it’s always been.. “no news is good news” so if they don’t say anything about , say, a client’s bad review, it was understood that it wasn’t my fault?

  58. AnonForThisOne*

    I know this ultimately comes back to my personal preferences but I’d like to hear opinions about whether I should stay at my current job or apply for a new opportunity. Both jobs are in government, one country vs opportunity at state.

    Current job:

    Pays a little less than opportunity but still well and raises are pretty regular and I’d likely outpace the state within a few years. Opportunities like conferences and certification training are budgeted every year. Strict environment but I’m thriving. Good exposure to new things including project management duties that I’d like to transition into a promotion. However, I could see it taking 5 years or longer for a promotion to materialize. Top performer and treated well by management as a result.

    New position:

    Is more in line with the promotion goals. However small commute which would eat up the small raise from changing employers and raises at this state are pretty dismal if at all. Certification and conference opportunities would be rare. Good benefits but not a lot better than current ones. However, I’d have the title and promotion.

    Staying in government and public service is a bit of a must as I’m working through the public service student loan forgiveness.

    Apply or be patient where I am?

    1. Jules the First*

      Would you take this new position if they offered it to you? Are you unhappy enough to want to explore leaving?

      The question I always ask myself is “where will I be in two years if I take this new job?” and then also ask where you’ll be in two years if you stay put. Think about future you – will AnonForThisOne2019 be happy that AnonForThisOne2016 changed jobs, or regretful?

    2. A Plain-Dealing Villain*

      What will the title and promotion mean to you if you won’t be getting any raises or leveraging them into a better job since you are staying in government? Stick with your county role. It pays better. Room for growth and the professional development opportunities are worth way more than a title change.

      1. The Rat-Catcher*

        Agreed. Titles aren’t universal anyway and any employer worth its salt is still going to ask what you actually did in a position.

  59. Forever Anon*

    My company is loaning part of our office to a business and there’s a woman who works for them who gets very anxious whenever the alarm goes off. (Let’s call her Jane). I have repeatedly explained that we have to wait for further instruction but that explanation makes Jane angry. She was in NYC on 9/11 and I was not and she likes to sarcastically point that out whenever the alarm goes off because alarms aren’t a trigger for me. I worked with the building manager to give the company more in-depth information on how to handle various scenarios that could come up. I’m hoping that helps moving forward but my question is how to de-escalate these tense interactions.

    1. fposte*

      How often does your alarm go off that this is a thing? And how tall is your building that evacuation isn’t an okay response to a fire alarm?

      1. Forever Anon*

        It’s 30 floors. The alarm goes off every couple of months and is either a test or something like someone accidentally burned their lunch.The fire safety person usually let’s us know within a few minutes of the activated alarm what the status of the alarm is and what we need to do. When there’s a test I let the company know ahead of time. I can understand why the non-test alarms trigger a big response from New Yorkers here on that terrible day but I think Jane wants a bigger response from me than nonchalance.

        1. Jules the First*

          Yeah, I think this may be one of those things you just have to learn to live with (though maybe you could ask the fire safety person to put Jane on the list of people he notifies right away – and maybe she could get the dates of fire alarm tests).

          I hereby apologise to everyone I’ve panicked on planes over the years counting rows and checking for life jackets….

        2. Gene*

          If the fire alarm goes off, and it’s not an announced test, DO NOT wait a few minutes for the fire safety person to let you know if it’s burned toast. Nonchalance will get you killed in a real emergency. If your “fire safety person” is telling you anything other than, “If the alarm sounds and it’s not an announced test, GTFO!”, she needs to be fired.

          1. Sadsack*

            Yeah, I don’t understand how this process came to be. I think the automatic response should be to proceed with evacuation until you are told the building is clear, not to sit around waiting to be told it is a true emergency. What a terribly flawed plan.

        3. Observer*

          “A few minutes” is WAAAAY to long to wait before making a decision on what to do. Never mind 9/11 – we’ve been told by several government agencies that they expect a building to be evacuated within 4 minutes. Now that’s probably not possible in a building that tall, but 4 minutes is LONG time in the case of a real emergency.

          In fact, in some localities, waiting a few minutes to allow people to evacuate is actually illegal. This is not just an NYC thing, or a post 9/11 thing, either. I don’t know the rules in your area, but in some places the rules in high rise buildings allow for floor selective evacuations – ie the evacuation must happen *immediately* on the affected floor (and possibly the adjacent floors) but can wait for a very short time till whoever figures out what is going on.

          The bottom line is that your co-worker may be a bit phobic. But, your nonchalance is out of place. And, if you are having false alarms every couple of months, you really need to do something about that. This could really come back to haunt you.

    2. GigglyPuff*

      Does she know why the alarms are going off? If not, it might help her to know why, if every time it isn’t important, and it’s a rare thing for the alarm to actually go off for a reason people need to pay attention to.

    3. Sophie Winston*

      The fire marshal has instructed you to wait for further instruction when the fire alarm goes off? I’ve never had any instruction other than immediately evacuate when you hear the alarm, but I’ve never regularly dealt with a building over 8 floors, so maybe that’s common?

      Invite her to join the building safety committee? I dunno…

      1. Natalie*

        Modern office buildings are designed to stop the spread of fires – sprinklers, fire doors, etc. If they are larger, not evacuating immediately is pretty common. (This was a big problem on actual 9/11, since people were told to follow the fire rules rather than the plane crashed into a building rules.)

        1. Observer*

          Even so, what the OP is describing is totally inappropriate. If your building is properly designed, you still need to evacuate the immediate floor IMMEDIATELY, because even with sprinkler, fire doors etc. the people on that floor are at risk and the few minutes makes a HUGE difference in survival and harm rates.

      2. Cath in Canada*

        We have a two-stage alarm system. If it’s the first stage (slow pinging), you check for smoke/flames in your immediate area. If you don’t find any, you make sure the exits aren’t blocked, then wait for further instruction. If it progresses to (or starts with) the second stage (fast pinging), GTFO immediately. We only have six floors, but the rules are the same for our other buildings, which go up to 15 floors.

      3. halla*

        I work in an 18 story building, and when the alarm goes off it includes instructions to remain in place (by far most common), relocate to the fire stairs but remain in the stairs, or to evacuate. The message can be different for each floor and the single time we had something happen that called for an evacuation it was only two or three floors. The system is designed to prevent the stairs from jamming with people if it’s not necessary, and the building is constructed in a way that it’s really unlikely that an incident on one floor will effect distant floors immediately. It’s been hard to retrain myself to sit still instead of fleeing, though.

    4. paul*

      ….I mean, my first response when a fire alarm goes off is to calmly but quickly head for an exit, not sit twiddling my thumbs. I kinda understand where she’s coming from.

      The tornado sirens, my first response is to head to the shelter.

      With things like that if you give it 5 or 10 minutes for someone to tell you to GTFO or head to shelter, it can be too late.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah, my junior year of college there was a fire in a dorm and it was destroyed. (No people were seriously hurt.) I wasn’t on campus at the time but many of my friends were, and even now every time there’s a fire alarm they take it seriously.

      2. Forever Anon*

        I think what really made me angry was when Jane came up to my desk while I was working on something urgent for my boss (knowing that we had to hang tight) and criticized me for not doing anything. However, your comments are making me see this situation through a clearer lens.

        1. Mints*

          She was like, yelling at you for not evacuating? That does seem weird. She could just evacuate if she doesn’t want to risk waiting to see if it’s a test

          1. Forever Anon*

            Mints – She made a sarcastic comment like “Are you just going to sit there?!” and then I stopped what I was doing, looked her in the eye and angrily told her to wait or whatever. I should have handled it more professionally but it caught me so off guard that I reacted the way I would have in my personal life. Jane’s company always talks about evacuating but never does. I had to email my point-of-contact this morning because no one from that company is in today and I made a point of explaining where to evacuate.

            Paul – No coded alarms. It’s that obnoxious shriek. The fire safety guy waits a few minutes before he gets on the intercom, which I actually think is too long, and then tells us what happened.

            1. Observer*

              Your fire safety guy needs to be fired or retrained. And, your company / building needs to do something about the way the alarm system is set up.

              Jane asked a very legitimate question, despite the sarcasm. When a fire alarm goes, it is NOT the right time to start something “urgent”, even though you need to wait for further instructions. In fact, I went looking for fire evacuation rules to see how they compare to what we do, and at least one place with staged evacuation rules (high rise building) that *explicitly* states that people should not start anything important or that can’t be interrupted till they get more information.

        2. paul*

          her criticizing you while your busy isnt’ kosher, but yeah…I’ve lived through a house fire and 2 tornadoes (joys of life in tornado alley), and you learn quick after that to not dilly dally.

          Out of curiosity, are you alarms coded at all? Long flat wail for fire, intermittent shrieks for tornadoes, something like that? Different disasters demand different actions, knowing more than “Oh something’s wrong” is a good thing.

    5. Alice*

      I think you’re doing what you can to get more information, which may help. But what I’m commenting to suggest is actually about reframing the issue in your mind. If you think of your ultimate goal as de-escalating your interactions with Jane, you really don’t control whether you succeed or not. But if your ultimate goal is, say, handling these tense interactions professionally, that’s an outcome that you can control.
      Good luck!

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Tell her she is free to do as she wishes and you are free to do as you wish.

      I’d stop with the explanations. Instead I would go with, “Jane, I showed you what company practice is here. I understand you may need to leave when the alarm goes off. Most certainly, I don’t want to interfere with your choice to leave the building.”

      If she starts telling you “but you don’t understand….” simply agree with her and restate that it is her choice how she handles the situation. “You’re right, Jane. I don’t totally understand. I won’t interfere with whichever choice you make.”

      The reason I am saying this is because we can’t rationalize fear away. She has to decide to deal with her fear. Until she does, the best you can do is show her that she is not trapped and she does have choices.

  60. straws*

    What are your expectations regarding your company’s communication of policies and benefits? Every so often, I’ll get a comment about an employee not being aware of a policy or benefit. Our current procedures include announcing policy changes and new benefits in a public forum that we use company-wide. They are then added to our company handbook, which is available on the company wiki as well as provided to all new employees upon hire. I’ve always felt that was sufficient, but occasionally it feels like some of our employees want us to be on top of them a LOT more than what I consider to be appropriate for a professional office.

    1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      We get emails usually when something significant changes, in addition to it being discussed at a meeting and added to the handbook

    2. PK*

      We receive emails about major changes as well as meetings when needed. It doesn’t happen frequently enough that an email explaining the changes would be a burden though.

    3. response*

      Unfortunately, there is not much more you can do. Most people don’t pay attention/remember things that don’t effect them at that moment.

      1. straws*

        I think you’re probably right. I feel terrible when something comes up and an employee says “well if I knew about that, then I would have done it!” I feel so snarky responding with “Well, we did announce it X years ago when it started and it’s in the [readily-accessible] handbook.”

        1. NJ Anon*

          They are adults. You don’t have to hand hold. At OldJob a new employee was told they had to wait until a certain month to sign up for the 401(k) and was given the forms and told to hand them in then. Well they forgot and tried to blame the HR person. Um, no. If it was that important you would have remembered to do it in the first place.

    4. it happens*

      I had a boss who used to say ‘don’t tell people it’s in the manual…’ when they’ve done something wrong. As much as it is the responsibility of the people to know what the policies are, it is the responsibility of the people who set the policy to communicate it. Whenever we made a significant change we made sure that the managers understood it (not just told them – but actually knew how it worked) when we communicated to the whole company. The philosophy was that if something is important enough to be policy, it’s important enough to communicate; it’s not just a gotcha/CYA scheme.

      Employees are unlikely to have any idea of the breadth of what’s in the wiki unless they are the ones writing it. It’s a good idea to remind people what kind of policies exist – and point them to look at them on a regular basis. Don’t know what other communications vehicles the org has, but maybe highlighting one kind of policy each month to send people to read it (like February is purchasing month – do you buy anything for us? May is vacation month – do you know our leave policy? etc.)

    5. The Rat-Catcher*

      I think what you’re doing sounds sufficient, but I always read my benefits policies. We also have an orientation for new employees where they spend four hours learning about their benefits, leave policies (to the extent that they affect the whole organization – obviously different roles vary), and things like that.

  62. lizardsaremybagbaby*

    I think this is sufficiently work-related, but if not, let me know and I can report on a truly open day.

    I passed up some major career opportunities in NYC about 10 years ago to relocate back to the Midwest to be with my then-fiance-now-husband. I did find a good job, we have a nice house, and I do like our life. But I don’t want to live here forever. Leaving him isn’t an option (haha) – he is just a spectacular guy that I’m still crazy about.

    I have an amazing offer to move to the NYC office of a previous employer. I’m in the consulting field and am ambitious and very career minded; if I want to move my career up, this is an offer not to pass up. The hubby likes what he does (software) and makes good money, but it’s just a job for him. After long deliberation and much discussion with the hubby, I accepted. I am moving up in January, and he will get the house ready for sale and follow me in about 6 months. He is not excited about the move at all. I have wanderlust and he is a homebody. He also has far more social ties than I do, and this will be a major lifestyle change for him.

    How can I support him as the trailing spouse? I’m trying to set up conditions to minimize the impact to his lifestyle – I’m willing to live in the burbs (ugh) instead of the city. If I could afford to keep him as a SAH spouse, I would but that isn’t possible for now.

    Has anyone been the trailing spouse? What was the hardest part for you? What could your spouse/partner have done to make it easier for you? What mistakes did you guys make?

    First time commenter (on any advice site!), so thank you for any thoughts.

    1. self employed*

      What are his thoughts? Are you making assumptions about his preferences/downsides for him or are they his actual ones? The reason I ask is it sounds like you are “winning” something and he is “losing.” This is sort of true, but we all make sacrifices, big and small, for our spouses. Are you in a healthy place in your marriage? If so, you should be okay. Are you willing to move back if it’s not working out for him?

      I perceive that your concern is that he will eventually resent you/the move. Is that accurate? Do you just feel guilty asking him to make this move?

      Not trying to get all psychoanalytical! And am on my phone, so apologies if it’s disjointed. :)

      1. lizardsaremybagbaby*

        These are primarily his concerns. He’s been very honest about how he feels about it, which I respect. I’ve put his preferences first for a long time which isn’t fair to me. We are in a good place in our marriage, but you’ve hit it on the head with my concerns about hidden/growing resentment. I was in that position when I moved back 10 years ago and honestly still have twangs of it occasionally. My job is very specialized which means none of my work is in our hometown. I travel about 1/3 of the year, which I hate. All my work would be local in NYC and that means much more time for us! I don’t think he sees it quite that way.

        If there is a “loser” to this decision, it would be him. He has more ties and more to give up (it’s hard to make friends when you’re always on the road!) I want to support him to minimize that as much as I can.

        1. self employed*

          Where is the win-win? Extra time together in NYC, more money (I assume) to fulfill your dreams faster — maybe discuss the 10, 20 year plan and dream together. If this job propels you towards that dream, I’d hope he could swallow it better and see it as a step along the path. If not, and you’re just trading seats on the I win/you lose bus, you have a problem. In that case I might discuss it with a counselor to come up with a plan for OUR future. It appears that you are in a black and white situation where only one of you is happy (now: him, later: you). I hope you can find a situation in which both of you are happy with the situation– or at least with where you’re headed.

    2. Jules*

      That is a tough one. I’ve been the trailing spouse and the leading spouse. But it all boils down to attitude. Do I want to fit in my new environment or am I biding time until we go ‘home’. You can be supportive and inclusive when making new friends etc. But ultimately, he needs to decide what is important to him. I am the outgoing one and he is the homebody. When we moved to Midwest, it helps that he makes an effort to take me to new places and do new things together so I get familiar with my new environment. But I wouldn’t force the interaction. A homebody would feel awkward being forced in social situation.

    3. BRR*

      You mentioned it, but I think where you live is going to be a big factor. If he’s a homebody, it can be hard to get what you want in the city (quiet & space). That being said I wouldn’t move too far out of the city. I live far out and train in and it sucks. I’m so exhausted that there’s really not an advantage to me being around on weekdays. The situation feels like I’m gone all week.

      As Jules said, it boils down to attitude. I was the leading spouse and it was hard for my husband. He adjusted but it took time. Part of that was he isn’t super employable with his career history so it too awhile for him to find a job. He had the attitude for awhile of “I’m going to hate it.” Not “I’ll figure out how to tailor it to me but I might be unhappy for a bit.”

  63. Case of the Mondays*

    I recently got to teach a class to HR managers. I was able to pass along a lot of things I read here that we would like managers to know and do. I also suggested they all read this blog on the regular to keep up with changes in the law (and secretly so they can see what employees want!)

  64. Augusta Sugarbean*

    I’m job hunting and looking for a general office job/administrative assistant type position. I’ve been working in A&D and am done with anything remotely healthcare related. I’m outside a large metro area and commute downtown everyday. My main job requirement is something in our smallish town (pop. 34,000). I’ve been looking on the municipal government websites and Indeed.com. Two questions:
    1. I’ve applied at several county administrative assistant jobs over the last year but might it look too scattershot since they are all in different departments? I always mention in my cover letter that I’m looking for something in my community.
    2. I’ve been at my current job for over a decade and found that through an acquaintance. I don’t have any kind of network, social or otherwise. Where else should I be looking for job listings?
    Thanks! Hope everyone (in the northern hemisphere) is staying warm and driving safe!

    1. The Rat-Catcher*

      Administrative worker for a state government here. Try your state government website! If you’re in the US, usajobs.gov has federal postings. Don’t sweat over the apps you have in. The people looking at your applications likely aren’t coordinating with each other, and honestly, hiring in government is so regimented, they may not be able to consider that even if they did notice it.
      Indeed is a great resource; keep checking that.
      If you think an employer in your area might need admins, look them up directly. Most places that have websites will have a “careers” or “employment opportunities” section.
      You might try: law firms, colleges/universities in your area, local school districts, churches, car dealerships…lots of people need admins!

      1. Augusta Sugarbean*

        I do get notifications from the state jobs board but unfortunately the only office in my town are DHS and the field I’m trying to get away from. I’ll do some more digging about larger companies and their job listings. Thank you!

  65. Elli in Cali*

    An update on covering for coworkers (from November 25th’s open thread):

    Management’s solution has been to put this person on her desired day shift through the end of the year and post the work schedule with holes on swing shift and a plea for volunteers to pick up shifts. This seems to be How Things Are Done Here for any employee who comes to management for a schedule adjustment, if the request is put in before the schedule is posted.

    There were a couple of questions about rest periods between shifts. To the best of my knowledge, California does not have laws on the books about breaks between scheduled work periods. However, there is a clause in the union contract that requires my employer to pay time and a half for time for part of the shift if an employee is back on the clock before getting a certain number of hours off between shifts.

    Thank you all for the replies. I really don’t mind flexing if there’s an occasional need, but I sometimes need the reminder that it’s okay to say a polite no to coworkers.

  66. Beezus*

    I dealt with a very difficult person at work who outranks me yesterday. She asked my (understaffed, overloaded) team to do something very labor intensive and refused to accept reasonable alternatives, and no one from my management team was available to tell her no, so I did. I’m so proud of myself – I clearly explained why I was telling her no, then told her what I could do instead, I didn’t back down when she pulled rank on me; she invoked her boss and I quietly went to him and pled my case and won him over too; my boss backed me up later, and a director who was standing by watching the whole thing told me that I handled it beautifully and the only reason he didn’t intervene was because I clearly didn’t need him to.

    1. Beezus*

      I should add, there was no clear need for doing things the way she asked – “because I said so, and you have to do it this way sometimes, so you should be able to do it this time” was about it.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      The best part? You just gained a lot of credibility and she just lost a lot, and so you’ve also made it easier for others to stand up to her if she tries to pull crap like this again! Congratulations! High fives all around! :D

    6. Observer*

      That must have been REALLY upsetting in the moment, but good for you on handling it so well. I think the others are right that you are going to benefit in the long term.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t know, but I used to work for someone like that. It was extremely weird. This person was way higher up than anyone else in the mee tings, so no one felt they could say anything. Worse still, this person clipped the toenails straight on to the floor (not even into a rubbish bin).

    2. self employed*

      This is a literal nightmare!

      “Would you like me to come back when you’re done?”

      If you have a good rapport: “The sound of clippers drives me crazy. Do you mind waiting til I leave?”

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      TOENAILS? No, oh god no. That’s horrifying. I agree with self employed’s suggestion to ask if you should come back when she’s done. And I’m sending you all my sympathies.

    5. James John Jones*

      I had a boss that would clip her toenails and put them in a cup and not throw out the cup until it was full.

      1. Natalie*

        Ugh, I might have thrown up in my mouth a little bit. And I’m not normally grossed out by toe nails.

      2. Coalea*

        1. That is gross.
        2. Full?! I can’t even imagine how long it would take to fill up a cup with toenail clippings! Months? Years?

  68. Emi.*

    Dress code question, bouncing off all the advice not to do admin work when you’re not an admin: Is “dressing like an admin” also a thing that could hurt you? I’ve seen people on Corporette saying that some brands are “for secretaries.” This sounds like a put-down to me, but I was wondering if there’s something behind it. For instance, I just noticed that only I and the admin wear skirts regularly. Do people here think that’s a problem, or is it just a matter of personal style?

    1. A574Girl*

      I think people who say some brands are “for secretaries” are stuck up. I mean, I guess this might matter in like fashion or something, but I can’t see it mattering most places.

      However, I would think about how you dress vs how the admins dress and decide if you want to change your look around. I work with college students and look young, so I work super hard not to look like a college student.

    2. Chickaletta*

      That sounds crazy, but follow your company’s culture instead of relying on outside “advice”. I think the answer probably varies from company to company – some places are very informal and only the receptionists and admins dress up, so you could be creating an unconscious association with them in other people’s minds. Look and see how your coworkers/peers dress and take cues from them. If your coworkers wear jeans and khakis everyday, then you might want to wear skirts less often, or look for some that are casual like maxi skirts or jean skirts, rather than a tailored pencil skirt, you know?

      As for certain “brands” being for admins only? That sounds like a snob thing but I wouldn’t be surprised if it exists at some companies and industries, so again, take cues from the people around you.

      1. KellyK*

        Because it’s Corporette, my guess is that it applies to super-formal environments, like law firms. In that kind of workplace, I can definitely see people noticing that you’re wearing a $100 skirt suit instead of a $400 one.

        1. Kelly L.*

          Yeah, and the secretary probably makes less, so she buys that brand, but the law partner should wear something pricier, I guess is the thinking.

          I’ve heard there was kind of a thing back in the 70s, too, where the secretaries were supposed to dress really femme (because the bosses wanted eye candy, and yes, yuck), but a higher-ranking woman was supposed to dress in a more masculine style (to fit in with the guys), but I think that’s less of a thing than it used to be.

          1. Emi.*

            I figured it was about price (although there also seemed to be a sense that “played out” brands were for secretaries, because … secretaries are basic? I wasn’t sure but it felt squicky to me), but I wasn’t sure because pretty much everything on Corporette is out of my price range, and I’m not sure which ones are more out of my price range, haha.

            1. N.J.*

              Corporate has some interesting posts and certainly has the fashion thing down. However, for such a highly educated bunch, the commentariat there can be ignorant, crass, rude and unhelpful to a shocking degree. The commentariat definitely has a classist, stuck up bent. Take what a lot of them say with a grain of salt.

            2. Mela*

              These are basically a bunch of women working in a classist, privileged work environment, so ya, their fashion sense is going to be skewed that way. I read over there very occasionally, but the general gist I got was that the “played out” brands like Ann Taylor used to be high quality and now not-so-much, so for a corporate lawyer, no that’s not acceptable anymore. Corporate lawyers are major career climbers, while legal secretaries literally have no where to go, promotion-wise. They can be “basic” and have a nice, stable career.

              Is your career more “stable” path, or are you thinking about promotions within the next few years? Is there a huge difference in how the highest and lowest paid employees dress? Are you dressing a step up/for the position you want vs the position you have? These are things that are more important to think about than how corporate lawyers deal with career fashion.

              Generally, no I don’t think it’s that you’re wearing skirts, unless maybe you’re the only woman non-secratary or something and then *maybe* that could contribute to your male co-workers unconsciously re-classifying you? But I wouldn’t worry about it. If you’re asking how much you should be spending, I’d say that you’re safe at Ann Taylor and the like if you’re making less than $80k in a non-competitive/corporate environment, but that’s a really rough estimate/guess.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I mean, I don’t work in BigLaw (which is the focus of Corporette), but unless you do you can ignore Corporette about this sort of thing. The tone there is super snobby and frankly out of touch with the world beyond big NYC & DC law firms.

      That being said, I do think it’s worth noticing how people in different parts of your organization dress, and including those observations in your decisions about what to wear (including deciding to not give a damn). For example, there’s a pretty clear formality hierarchy at my organization — the female CEO & VPs tend to wear traditional western business suits or sharp, tailored dresses; middle management dresses stylishly in different ways (including various ethnic dress); junior folks tend to vary from casual-but-put-together to stylish-like-middle-management; and admins dress very casually (t-shirts and jeans).

    4. paul*

      I went and checked that blog out (had never heard of it). Wow. Makes me glad I’ve got nothing to do with law. Snobby as hell.

      Although here in the rural parts of Texas, even doctors and lawyers and such aren’t prone to caring that much about specific clothing brands. Yikes.

    6. MC*

      This is a total put down. It’s saying that people can’t afford nicer clothing if they’re an admin. Which is BS. People spend what they feel like and can spend on clothing. I’m sure there are plenty of execs out there who are happy buying $6K suits and others like myself who are fine in a pair of khakis and sweater from J Jill. Decent fabric makes the suit. Fit is second. If you can swing it, have your clothing “fine tuned” by a seamstress or not if you’re not inclined (I’m not inclined).

      Wearing skirts is not limited to admins – I know plenty of VPs who like to wear skirts. Hell I know one who likes to wear skirts and knee high patent leather stilettos and she looks fantastic.

      I think company culture has a part in this but dress as you like as long as you stick to general company guidelines (mine for example does not allow men or women to wear clothing that reveals armpits).

    7. Emi.*

      Thanks for the advice! To clarify, I’m not worried about wearing brands that are “for secretaries,” just wondering whether dressing the way admins dress (whatever that means locally) actually matters, or does nobody notice?

      1. Emi.*

        Also, I’m glad to hear I wasn’t off-base in being squicked out by the “for secretaries” thing. So thanks for the reassurance!

      2. Sadsack*

        Where I work, I think admins dress like everyone else, which is business casual. Some people dress up more than others, but it doesn’t seem to have anything to do with their positions…except the executives definitely dress more professionally overall.

    8. Triangle Pose*

      I think this is a “know your workplace thing.” I actually get a lots of great clothing and brand recs from Corporette and while some commenters are over the top, there is a lot of good advice and good commenters on those threads and it is the only other website (besides AaM) where I read the comments.

      “Some brands are for secretaries” is probably not the best phrasing but there definitely is some truth to this in certain workplaces. For example, at my company, wearing jeans or fleece or any kind signals you’re an engineer or a tech person. If you work in corporate, floors 55 and up, you do NOT wear jeans or fleece, you wear suits or ties or something that is very similar to a suit. I mean, both wearing skirts is probably pretty innocuous, but this is just an example of why I wouldn’t advise a coworker to wear a fleece just because he saw a bunch of engineers in the elevator wearing them.

      When I was at a law firm, there were some brands that were basically only worn or carried by secretaries. Coach bags with the big “C” logo, etc. were something that only secretaries carried while the women partners and associates carried brands with less outward logos. I wouldn’t advise a young woman associate to carry such a bag because it’s already a male dominated industry with female dominated support staff. This is similar to the “don’t volunteer for the party committee” advice given to many young women in the workplace.

    9. Sutemi*

      It can be a sign of job function. For example, I’ve noticed that women in jobs with safety-related dress codes (no skirts or open toes shoes in the lab, steel toed shoes on the shop floor, etc.) often wear very different clothes than women in the same building without safety concerns, who often tend to be admins.
      The other difference is price point, that women in pink collar jobs have to look nice on a small salary compared to executives they support that look nice on a much higher salary.

    10. Artemesia*

      There is a little black pant suit with white blouse look that for a long time shouted ‘intern’ or ‘admin’. Young women starting out and hoping for advancement were advised to adopt a more mature, subtle look — that usually but no always translates into more expensive. If you are a young woman hoping to advance in the company then you should probably not dress like the admins such that you would be mistaken for one by someone who doesn’t know your role. Women have a rough enough time not being treated as admins when they are lawyers, managers, directors, reporters etc etc — any job where someone walks past a row of men at desks to ask the woman to get coffee, get the boss or whatever.

  69. Anon for this*

    I have a holiday party dilemma.

    My supervisor is coordinating a party outside of working hours. The thing is, they’re not my supervisor anymore. There was some restructuring at work that led to our department being split up and me not being under this supervisor anymore. There’s no drama or anything, and we’re all on good terms. Because I was technically still on the team when the party planning started, I’ve been included on the e-mails.

    On the one hand, my feeling is that I shouldn’t go. I’m not a big part-goer anyway, and I’m not really friends with anyone on the team, so it’s not like I feel a big personal motivation to do so. It would actually be inconvenient (but not undoable) to go. And I’m not on the team anymore, so I don’t want to assume that I’m actually welcome.

    On the other hand, I worry about it seeming like I’m snubbing them. I do like these people and want to remain on good professional terms with them. And I don’t know if my instinct is wrong and that I have an obligation to go.

    Thoughts?

    1. Becky*

      Just ask.
      Talk to or email old-supervisor and explain your confusion that because of the re-org. Make it clear that you aren’t expecting you are still included in the party, but you’re confused because you’re still on the emails. It may be that since you were on the team in the planning stages, you are already included in the headcount. Or it may be they forgot to remove you from the communications. Or it may be that they want you there since you were part of the team for the majority of the year, but you can’t know unless you ask.

    2. Susan the BA*

      I think you could just say ‘I won’t be able it to the party. Have a great time!’ There’s no reason for them to suspect you’re snubbing them because sometimes people can’t go to things, and it’s also unlikely that they’ll reply with ‘Well GOOD because we WEREN’T INVITING YOU ANYWAY!’. They might even reply with ‘Sorry to hear that, we hope you can make it to the next event because you’re still welcome even though we’ve restructured.’

  70. A574Girl*

    Okay, so here’s a thing. I have a coworker who was pretty bad at her job. She regularly missed deadlines, didn’t know how to delegate, and tended to drop projects before completion. Apparently, I wasn’t the only person who expressed concerns about her work and she has left the company. (Don’t know if she was fired or if it was a resigning situation.)

    However, I can’t help but think that the job she had was pretty undoable. Not only was she in charge to regular Teapot Painting Duties, she was also in charge of Teapot Events and Teapot Social Media. How do I express my concerns that the next time we hire (we’ve gone through two in the 4.5 years I’ve been here), that maybe we should think about changing the job duties?

    Or as her colleague and not her supervisor, is it even my place to bring this up?

    1. Becky*

      Does the job description for the replacement (if it is posted yet) include all those duties? Or is it just for part of it?

      If only some of the duties coworker used to have are present, then just ask– “I notice we’ve posted Sharon’s old position, but the job description doesn’t include X and Y that she used to do. Who will be taking on responsibilities X and Y?”

      If they expect replacement to do those duties and aren’t including them in the description/expectations…that’s problematic.

      If all of them are listed in the job posting, well the applicant knows the requirements. Depending on the relationship you have with the manager/supervisor who is hiring for that position you may want to privately mention your concerns.

      1. A574Girl*

        Yeah, when we hired this last person, some of the duties weren’t listed in the job ad. I remember noticing it at the time, but I was too new to really feel comfortable being like, “Er… Guys, why doesn’t this job ad note this and this?”

        1. Artemesia*

          Be careful that helpfully pointing out that planning Teapot events makes this job undoable doesn’t result in your being assigned to do Teapot events.

    2. paul*

      I know I expressed my concerns about my supervisor’s job duties being undo able (to her supervisor) after my last one left before we hired our current one–I was sick of going through a supervisor a year and would rather gnaw my own arm off than take that job as it was. I wouldn’t ever feel safe doing that while we had a person in that position, but if your’e seeing high turnover, maybe you can point it out between people” “Hey, we have constant turn over at this position and it seems like there may be too much for one person to do, based on how involved these duties are (have some examples maybe).”

      I was also able to point out that it might violate part of the contract that pays her salary (since roughly 1/2 to 2/3rds of her job duties weren’t related to the things from that contract, and they want a supervisor that’s primarily focused on that contract’s deliverables) so that helped.

    3. Nico m*

      I think it would be normal and right to comment to your boss that you think that an empty role may need to be reorganised.

    4. Jenbug*

      Do you think coworker was legitimately bad at the job or struggling under the weight of unrealistic expectations? Because I’ve been in that position (effectively doing two full time jobs in which the workload tripled and getting no support despite asking numerous times) and I’m sure people though I was a bad worker at times, but when they let me go, they had to hire two people to replace me because no one (not even my direct supervisor) understood the scope of my responsibilities.

      If you think it’s the latter, you’d be doing everyone a favor to speak up and suggest a restructuring of duties if you think the people in charge would be amenable to listening.

    5. BRR*

      I think you’re well within your place to express concern that this job isn’t doable by one person. Two in 4.5 years would possibly not be alarming depending on the position and circumstances.

  71. The Moving Finger*

    Well, my work just hit a new level of crazy: Someone wrote an anonymous letter saying I screamed and hung up on them on the phone and sent it to all the big bosses. I did not see the letter, but I am told it was very vague and nonspecific and said the incident happened “a few weeks ago.” For once I know darned well I didn’t do it, I’ve never hung up on anybody even when they were screaming at me over the phone here. I maybe get one phone call a week any more and they’ve all been pretty innocuous.
    Of course they have to investigate anyway and since I’ve had all kinds of issues with people not liking how I speak here anyway…you get the drift. This is pretty much gonna be “anonymous letter said” vs. I said since we don’t record calls and I can’t prove I didn’t do it. However, given that everyone reports on you for everything these days, I suspect if anyone heard me screaming, someone would have reported on me immediately. And old boss can probably point out that I would have mentioned having a problem phone call if that came up because I warned her in the past, and in general I am pretty bluntly honest about everything.
    But obviously I’m never going to be able to prove who wrote the letter (I’ll put it this way: I have a reasonable suspect who has been having angry outbursts on me when we’re alone, which I have not reported because I can’t afford to piss them off when I spend all day long with them and the office would not be able to separate us if it became a public escalating feud) and I can’t say anything with no proof. And no, they don’t record phone calls.
    Boss said he’d ask my coworkers if they overheard anything (and if one of them says, “Oh yeah, I heard her being a bitch,” we’ll know who wrote it at least) and talk with his boss, and then they’d decide if they are going to write me up again or…well, probably come up with some other kind of punishment, I suspect, because they won’t let this go. I did bring the union in on this at boss’s request (one of them said boss is clearly on my side if he told me to call the union), and they said they will pursue it if I get written up for this. We’ll see.
    I do feel better knowing that for once I didn’t actually do something that bad, so there’s that. On the other hand, yeah, it’s fun to know I pissed someone off that much to send a poison pen letter. It makes you wonder what they’ll try next. And I don’t think there’s any way to find out who did it since this isn’t exactly an episode of CSI.

    1. MC*

      I think you have to switch it around – just like you can’t prove that you didn’t do it, a vague, anonymous letter isn’t proof that you DID do it. If you have a good enough rapport with your boss can you say “Well it looks like someone is angry with me. However, there is not enough information to prove that this was me. So maybe they’re trying to get me in trouble for something I didn’t do, but this letter doesn’t really hold water and I’d hate for this company to accept an anonymous tip instead of trust that their employees are doing their best for the company.”

      And I’d also be tempted to have a friend call up (calls aren’t recorded right) and say to whomever this is very quietly but insistently: “I KNOW IT’S YOU!”

      2. Gene*

        Just make sure the call happens while you are in her line of sight. For two reasons: so she can’t blame you, and so you can see the reaction.

    3. LCL*

      What’s wrong (according to them) with the way you speak?

      I think you should consider reporting the person who is blowing up at you. Let them be pissed off. They will either get over it, or escalate and display their bad behavior to everyone. Don’t keep secrets for jerks, especially when they are targeting you.

  72. Master Bean Counter*

    I got a victory this week. There was a discussion about what to do for a holiday party around the office going on. The major idea floating around was an after hours dinner, with a +1 invite. I don’t want to stay late or come back in to spend more time with the people I already spent all day with, and I know this would be difficult logistics for one of my reports that lives south of the border. She’s had to drive 60 miles out of her way to get home from the last after hours work function because the crossing closest to her house closes at night.
    So with that in mind I suggested that going out to lunch during work hours would be a much better idea and would save the company money, as this would be employees only. The company went with it!

  73. Confused*

    I’m applying to grad school to get my MLIS (yes, I know, but it makes sense for me) and I can’t figure out how to format a CV to send in with my application. Lots of examples of CVs I’m finding are for people applying to PhD programs and more academic based programs, not so much “professional” programs.

    How do I turn my resume into a CV? I don’t have any publications, no grants, etc. Nothing that the example CVs I’m finding have.

    Is it just a matter of me moving my education to the top of my resume and then listing my relevant work experience? Someone told me that a CV is quite long, but… I have nothing extra to really put on my CV. Would I put scholarships I won in university? I’m confused!

    1. GigglyPuff*

      This might not be the best advice, but I have an MLIS soooo…yeah, when I had to apply I don’t remember if it asked for a resume or CV. But at that point I had only one part-time job and some volunteering at my school library. So I put that, my education, and yes I think the scholarships/awards I had won because one was related to librarianship. Unless you’re coming from an academic background or a research/publish heavy profession, the way I see it, resumes and CVs are kinda the same.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      As someone who has done this, here’s what I would recommend- put your education first, then list any scholarships you got to college (they are grants of a sort) and then list your work experience. A LOT of people going to MLIS school don’t have publications or grants. Don’t worry about it too much.

      And good luck! Librarianship is a great profession.

  74. Eeeeeekkk*

    I’m in my second year at my current job and work in a very small, close-knit department. Every year – for years before I got here – my coworkers have pulled together cash to give to our manager in a card. That includes this year.

    I really don’t feel comfortable giving my manager a gift and would rather use the money I would give to her to make a larger contribution to the office gift to the facilities staff member responsible for our office space. Because the norm in our office is to contribute to our manager’s gift, though, and because my coworkers are honestly often very judgmental people, I’m worried about backlash if I don’t contribute.

    How should I handle this?

    1. A574Girl*

      I’d just give a token amount, like two dollars or something. That’s what I do when I have these situations.

    2. Jules the First*

      Why not just say “I’m making a larger contribution to the facilities team’s gift, instead because I’m uncomfortable gifting up.”

  75. Ellsbells*

    My boss is retiring at the end of the month, and a coworker wants to create a video of goodbye messages for him. She says people can do them individually or as a group. I’m not super comfortable with this idea, but I am open to giving it a shot. I am sure there are others in my group who will feel very uncomfortable and refuse to participate. Has anyone been asked to do something like this before? Any ideas on how to make a video goodbye message interesting and not too painful?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      We do things like this all the time. You could do as little as standing and smiling and waving, or getting a group together to do the same.

    2. Emilia Bedelia*

      I literally was at a retirement party where a video like this was played. It was honestly very touching to see the wide range of people who contributed – the video was all of people who were from far away or who had worked with the person in the past, not people who currently work here. If your boss has been there for a while and is well liked, there will most likely be people who will want to express their appreciation. Definitely make it no pressure and not required, but I think standing in the background and saying “Best wishes!” is a pretty reasonable option for people who don’t want to make their own video.
      The best way to make it interesting, imo,is just to be honest (if it’s nice :) )

    3. Artemesia*

      I had to laugh — is there anyone on earth who would actually want to sit through this and listen to it in real time? I would just record some quickie thing and not worry about it — no one is going to watch this more than once.

  76. Morning Glory*

    I know this is late in the game, but I have a side home business/taxes/ethics question. I work in a side business as a digital illustrator about 15 hours/week and have a home office with desk that is exclusive for that purpose.

    I read online that I can apply a home-office tax deduction (% of our mortgage the home office takes up) to reduce the side-business profit I have to pay. The thing is, the deduction would effectively remove all profits from each month as I am relatively new to the work, and have not made a lot of profit – so I would end up paying no taxes on the income.

    We bought the house a few years ago and the room has basically been unused since then so it’s not a new expense I took on just for the side business. Has anyone else dealt with this, and am I understanding it correctly? Does it sound ethical?

    It seems a bit weird that I can deduct this because we have the space for an exclusive office, but someone with the same business working at her kitchen table would not.

    1. Chickaletta*

      Yep, that’s how it works. A lot of businesses that are just beginning don’t make a profit on paper and therefor don’t owe taxes in their first year or two, so that’s normal and it shouldn’t raise any red flags with the IRS.

      Do take a look at how they determine how much you can calculate for using part of your home for your business. If I remember correctly, it’s pretty convoluted and I’ve never actually used it. The write off for me isn’t worth the time it would take for me to figure out, or maybe I don’t qualify, I can’t remember. But if you can use it then use it! That’s how business works: take all the write-offs you can in order to lower your taxes, there there for you to use and you are entitled to that.

    2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      It was my understanding that someone working at the kitchen table could as well – the exclusively part means you don’t have another “primary” business office. For example, I am allowed to work form home with my job on occasion, but I have an office that I primarily work from. I cannot deduct home-use business expenses since it isn’t my primary location. My friend who 100% telecommutes can, even though she works in the guest room of her home which isn’t just her office.

      Maybe I am wrong. But she’s never had an issue with the deduction that I know of

      1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

        I don’t think she deducts the whole room though – just the area dedicated to her work space

        1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

          Ya I checked with her. The desk is used exclusively for work, so she only deducts that portion – not the whole room. Her accountant said that was fine.

    4. self employed*

      If I remember correctly, it looks better than it is. There are a bunch of restrictions, etc. I didn’t do it bc when I 100% telecommuted because I didn’t feel like attracting the IRS’s attention. Be sure to talk it over w a tax expert first.

    5. A574Girl*

      Talk with a tax expert about this. The home office deduction is notoriously complicated and often not worth taking. I didn’t take it for my side business. It is also one that tends to get audited, because it is so often misapplied. Just make sure you speak to someone before taking it.

      1. Mela*

        My husband did freelance web stuff to parlay himself into a FT tech job, so for years his home office made sense as a tax deduction. One year, he was freelancing so little that the deduction almost eliminated his business taxes completely. The next year, his tax person said he hadn’t earned enough for it to not flag an audit, so that’s when he stopped claiming his office.

  77. BookCocoon*

    I was the one who wrote in the other day about our organization’s policy of paying hourly employees during full-day closures but not partial-day closures. Well, we had our first snow yesterday and closed down halfway through the day. Payroll sent all supervisors an e-mail with a link to the official policy that stated that non-exempt employees would only be paid for hours worked. Since I live next door to my office building and had a lot of work to do, I asked my supervisor if I could just stay and work, since I wanted the hours and was in no danger getting home. She said sure.

    THEN two hours later, all supervisors were sent another e-mail saying that actually, non-exempt employees could get paid for any hours they were scheduled to work today that they didn’t work because of the closure.

    The official policy on the website has not been changed, so that means that next time we close I have no idea if I’m going to get paid or not if I don’t stay and work.

    1. The Rat-Catcher*

      Ugh! So sorry that happened. Sounds like they need to make up their minds and get everything clarified with you all.

  78. Dina*

    So I work in a place where my time here is ending – I am part of a special department that is funded by an outside source for a specific purpose. I’ve tried to apply in-house for other positions (I am doctorate-licensed professional) that I am well qualified for and I haven’t even heard from anyone. So upon a management level colleague’s suggestion, I approached a department director I have been under before and basically stated “hey if this position or a position of this type opens, I would love to be considered.” She was not only receptive to the idea, but getting me in there actually furthered one of her own important objectives, and I’m on board with that. I’ve been here for 2.5 years and have expressed that staying on is important to me, it is one of my objectives.

    So this convo happened two months ago and I haven’t heard anything. I know it’ll take a while but two postings popped up (95% similarity to each other) and they’re basically my dream job. I applied for one and let my boss (managing director of the entire temporary department) know (they’re encouraging us all to look and use them as references because our time here is limited and they harbor no ill-will) and I know I need to ask the CEO to make some calls for me (Managing Director suggested it and the CEO has offered to do it for us). Even if she calls, there’s no guarantee that I’ll get it. Should I speak to the Director I spoke with two months ago and give her the heads up with a “I’m only applying for these two because they really are dream work for me, but I don’t want it to seem like I’ve forgotten our convo or that I’m uninterested in staying”? What do I do here?

    1. Junior Dev*

      You don’t owe it to her to put your job search on hold because of a conversation months ago. You could let her know you applied if the topic comes up in conversation, and you should probably let her know if you actually get a job, but I don’t think you should worry about it before then.

    2. Artemesia*

      I would assume she hasn’t done diddly or given it a though and do whatever it takes to get one of these new positions. It is also probably time to touch base casually with your boss to see if this new position you had discussed two months ago is still a possibility.

  79. Becky*

    This isn’t a question, just something that amused me. XKCD had a comic on Monday that felt a lot like many many discussions here about sticking with a bad job/environment for fear of not finding something better:
    http://xkcd.com/1768/

    1. Junior Dev*

      The alt-text about not getting to make decisions twice is how I played Dragon Age: Inquisition for a lot of the Important Decisions.

      Too bad life doesn’t work like that.

  80. Rubyeyes*

    Is it ever too late to report that a business I used to work for was possibly breaking the law?
    Specifically underage handling of alcohol. It was a water park in California, if it makes any difference.

    1. Dina*

      Possibly report to whatever liquor control association/agency/board as “I’m just now realizing that they were possibly doing this… they may still be doing it”

    2. Morning Glory*

      Are you sure it was illegal? No idea on California but in Maine when I was in high school, you could sell alcohol (at a grocery store) or serve alcohol (at a restaurant) starting at 17. You just could not drink it until 21.

      1. Rubyeyes*

        I think you can serve alcohol at 18 in California, but they were having 17 year olds serving it even when I was available (over 21). I am not absolutely sure though. Tried to search the laws but can’t find specifics.

  81. katamia*

    I work in education (TEFL). I HATE teaching. I’m hoping to transition out of it eventually, but unless I get really lucky (and I never do), that’ll take a few years. I have a first-level cert (CELTA, for those who are familiar with it) that’s valued in many other countries but not the US (my intention was/is to travel, so this isn’t a problem). There’s also a second-level cert (DELTA) I could get. I could do at least some of it online, and it would open up some better-paying jobs and locations for the next few years. But I also don’t want to dig myself even deeper into the education field. Also, while it wouldn’t totally break the bank for me, I’m doing pretty badly and would rather not spend money I don’t need to spend. So…thoughts? I keep going back and forth on whether this would be a good or bad investment.

    1. Junior Dev*

      Yeah, don’t invest in a credential in a field you hate.

      Is there something you could do to move away from teaching where you are? Maybe one-on-one or small group tutoring, or interpreting or translation work?

      1. katamia*

        There’s not much. I probably couldn’t find enough students to tutor to support myself (and actually, I don’t work anywhere near full time teaching–I have other freelance work too). I wouldn’t mind doing curriculum development, but I don’t have enough experience for the job ads I’ve seen, and those jobs also aren’t in places I want to live. I’m multilingual but probably not fluent enough to interpret or translate for money.

        But as much as I really loathe teaching (I’ve never had the personality for it and get incredibly frustrated doing it), I also can’t think of any other ways for me to travel the way I’ve always wanted (to live abroad for years, not just visit places for a couple weeks, since I’ll probably never have the income to take vacations anyway), so I feel really stuck.

    2. Alice*

      The only reason to do the DELTA when you don’t like teaching is if you want to spend 10-15+ years in head of school roles. Unless you have your heart set on that kind of administrative role — which still involves dealing with students a LOT — why would you invest the time, effort, and money?

      1. katamia*

        Higher paying jobs, especially in the Middle East, which is a region I’m very interested in going. Also, my work history is bizarre, between freelancing and many years of underemployment/unemployment (recession), and it looks like it would make me a more competitive candidate.

    3. Emac*

      If you have a master’s degree, or would want/need to get one for the future, you might be able to get a university TEFL job in some places (I’m specifically thinking of S. Korea, where university jobs can be better paying than hagwons or even public schools). Or depending on the field the master’s was in, you might be able to look at international schools, which seem to pay better. I have a friends who has an honours degree (from Australia) in biology and after teaching ESL for a couple of years, he got a pretty well paying job teaching math and science in an international school.

      1. Emac*

        I think I wasn’t totally clear – in S. Korea, and maybe some other places (I’ve been out of the ESL world for awhile), some universities require a master’s, but it can be in anything.

        1. katamia*

          Thanks. That’s interesting–I’ve seen jobs where they want a master’s in TESOL, but not many that just want a master’s, although I haven’t looked much in Korea, either. Wonder if I could find a decent master’s program for something I’m more interested in and do that to both help me get higher paying teaching jobs for a bit and then move to something else I actually want to be doing. (I mean, I’m not going to apply for a master’s tomorrow or anything, but it’s definitely something to consider. :) )

  82. Susan the BA*

    After my second annual review (when I’d been here ~18 months) went really well, I decided to spend this year building a case for a promotion, documenting my achievements and speaking with my team lead about what skills they would expect me to demonstrate. Unfortunately, my plans were foiled… because a few months later I found out that they were proactively promoting me! It took a while to get finalized (large organizations, woooo) but they backdated it six weeks. This is even better than I was hoping for, because since I got this ‘off-cycle’ increase I still qualify for a merit increase on our regular schedule next year. I’m so grateful to work in a place where my work is noticed, valued, and rewarded. To those who think it can never happen for them, don’t give up!

    1. Tea*

      Congratulations! It’s great that they’ve noticed your hard work and the value you’re putting in, since they’re being so proactive about it.

  83. Junior Dev*

    Send me your good vibes, I’ve got a promising job in the pipeline!

    I applied several weeks ago, had a LONG in person interview and gave references on Friday. This week I filled out some paperwork and am waiting for their decision.

    Aaa I hope I get it!

    I’m trying not to get too worked up about it but I truly am very excited about this job! I’m also trying not to do the thing of “they haven’t contacted me for a whole 24 hours, WHAT DOES IT MEAN???”

  84. ToxicWaste*

    After leaving a toxic environment, how do you move on mentally? How do you not absorb everything from your environment? Right now I’m trying to sort what I could take away from the situation (being more receptive to feedback/criticism, being more social, etc.) versus ignoring the petty/catty bs that I had to put up with. How do you not let it get you down and influence your next job?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I left an extremely toxic environment for my current job, and it wasn’t difficult at all mentally. In fact, it was the exact opposite. I was in heaven by comparison, and when people at my current work would complain about legitimate problems, I would just think “Oh, you have no idea how much worse it could be….”

    2. Junior Dev*

      Therapy, if you’re able and therapy is something that appeals to you.

      Honestly, in the immediate aftermath I would focus more on moving on–taking care of yourself and finding a new job. You should look for red flags in any new job that it might be similar to the toxic one.

      In terms of self-improvement, I’d try to look at that as an ongoing project rather than something you must do to atone for your sins at ToxicJob. Hard, I know, but hating your job can mess with your head.

      I was so scared to ask for a reference from my last job, even though when they laid me off they explicitly said they’d provide one. I mentally associated the whole thing with all the bad feelings I had about not just being laid off, but also feeling really uncomfortable with their awful work culture. But it wasn’t a big deal at all–my boss said of course she’d be a reference and she missed having me around.

      Try your best to resist doing a constant mental postmortem of All the Bad Things and focus on moving forward.

    3. Manders*

      Something that I struggled with after moving on from a toxic environment was recognizing red flags when my situation was *better* but some things were still well outside professional norms. I’ve relied on AAM a lot to retrain my sense of what should be normal. I also have to remind myself that I don’t have to feel loyal or grateful to my employer for meeting basic standards–for me, removing the emotion made it easier to evaluate my work and my place in the company clearly.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Honestly, for me, it was a matter of time and space. I left my job because I was miserable, they gave me severance, and it took 3 months to get a new one. Four months before I started the new one. That space was incredible to have. The first few weeks were pretty rough, and occasionally I got pretty down, but in the end, it was SO worth it. I also took a retail job in between that helped me get a professional “reset” of sorts.

      If you can’t leave or take time, then I do recommend finding something outside of work to focus on, if you don’t have a significant hobby already. Something in a group, where you have to deal with people dynamics. You’ll learn that not all “workplaces” are the same.

    5. Chaordic One*

      You know, I’m still having problems getting past my old toxic job. Sometimes I will think about the job and my heart will start racing. I think that when I move on to something new I will, for better or worse, still act pretty much the same way I did before and still give other people the benefit of the doubt and do my best on the job, although I now know that not everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt. There are some nasty gas-lighters out there.

  85. librarygirl*

    Help! I’ve just been asked to help out with the mock job interviews and I need good questions to ask.

    Also I’m hoping my coworker makes it in otherwise it’s just going to be me.

    *insert panic here*

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      “Even though I’ve read your résumé, tell me a bit about your work history. How you got here, why you’re interested in this opportunity.” (Sounds redundant, but I’ve asked this a lot, and I usually get a lot of interesting narrative that doesn’t necessarily come through in the résumé itself or the cover letter).

      “What did you like most about your last job?”

      “What’s your favorite thing that a past manager has done to make you a better or happier empioyee?”

    2. SophieChotek*

      AAM’s book has great questions! Read her book.

      Probably not…
      “what sort of animal would like you to be?”
      or
      “Tell me something negative about your last boss”

      1. Emi.*

        I got asked what animal I would be (in the federal government!). Also “Why is there fuzz on a tennis ball?” and “Name ten things you can do with a pencil besides writing” and “With your eyes closed, explain how to tie your shoelaces” and two more off-the-wall questions that I forget.

        What are these mock interviews for? Even if you think these questions are silly, you should think about including some if people are likely to run into them when they’re doing real interviews.

        1. librarygirl*

          Those are some really interesting questions. I’m not sure I could ask them with a straight face.

          The program is to give job seekers some interview practice to help build their confidence. We also give lots of non-partial feedback on how they did, things they can improve on, etc.

          1. SophieChotek*

            I love that idea though.

            So..why is there fuzz on a tennis ball? And what animal are you?

            (I think I did get asked what animal I would be…when I applied for my coffee shop job.)

            1. Emi.*

              I said I thought it was to add friction so the ball wouldn’t skid on bounces. I looked it up later and got a zillion hits for “How to answer the tennis ball question on an interview,” but apparently it’s actually to add friction against the racket so you can put more spin on it. And I’m a sea monster.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      A few I have been asked are:

      “Tell me about a time you had to face a work challenge and what you did to overcome it?”
      “How would you describe your organizational skills?”
      “When was a time you did something innovative to solve a problem and what was it?”
      “What do you think will be most challenging for you about this new position?”
      And of course, the old classic: “Why are you interested in this job?”

    7. NW Mossy*

      One I’m planning to add to my list when I next interview is “Tell me about a time when you got some tough criticism and how you handled it.” I’ve got a couple of directs that are really struggling with taking feedback personally and that’s such a hard thing to coach people out of.

  86. I hate my job*

    We got our raises today. First one for any non management staff in five years, I’ve worked here for almost three. Our salaries were raised about be whole 25 cents an hour. We got our Christmas bonus too, a $5 restaurant gift card. They are going to close the office for a week because of Christmas as a reward, except that none of us will be paid for it. Meanwhile the CEO is bragging about the new house he just bought (outright, no mortgage) about and one of the directors gave his girlfriend an engagement ring that cost more than my house. It’s been an awesome day.

    5. tink*

      This sounds like my old company. I’m sorry, it’s crappy and terrible and feels even worse when you know the C-levels are making enough money to do things like buy a house outright.

  87. all aboard the anon train*

    Two things regarding interviews and health insurance.

    1. I’m pretty tired of recruiters getting annoyed if I ask whether the position if full-time with benefits. I don’t think this is unreasonable to ask. Furthermore, recruiters who call about contract positions and then insist that their recruiting firm offers benefits and ask about my situation need to stop trying to pressure me. If I hear one more, “but you’re young and single, so the minimum coverage should be fine!” I am going to scream. Age and partner status don’t mean anything. For all the crap I get at my current job, we have excellent health benefits (even the dental is better than most) and I’m not leaving that for nothing or crap insurance. Why can’t recruiters understand that? I have a lot of health problems I need insurance for, even though it may not look that way.

    2. It is really that egregious to ask to see a copy of the medical benefit plan when you’re negotiating salary and perks at the offer stage? I had a company act like I’d committed a crime because I asked if I could get more detail on the medical plan. HR said they had medical, dental, and vision, but when I asked what the coverage percentages were and if I could see the plan, my HR contact got weird, told me she’d get back to me, and then two days later said that the offer was take it or leave it and she couldn’t offer more info about the plans. I ended up turning down the offer for that and some other reasons, but was it out of line for me to ask more details about the health insurance?

    1. Junior Dev*

      Nah, you’re good. That HR person sucks.

      I feel you on the “you’re young and single!” nonsense. When I was sick earlier this year I had a lot of people (medical staff included) say “you’re too young to have these problems!” And…? I have them, please treat me instead of marveling at how weird I am.

      1. Jules the First*

        My favourite responses to those “you’re too young to have….” comments:
        “thank you. I’m an old soul.”
        “My mom always said I was special, and now I guess we have scientific proof.”
        “Hmmm. Are you sure you’re old enough to be a doctor?”

        1. Artemesia*

          A friend’s doctor told her that about her breast lump; ‘we’ll just watch it.’ Which meant waiting until the cancer had metastisized. She probably survived it but she won’t be able to have kids as a result of the side effects of the chemo and radiation.

      2. all aboard the anon train*

        I spent a good 10 years without getting diagnosed or getting medication for my endometriosis because I was told I was “too young and healthy to have those problems”. Or because they thought I was lying about my symptoms because I “didn’t understand what menstruation was”.

        It’s crazy that so many people assume younger people don’t have serious health problems.

    2. DCGirl*

      It’s not weird to ask about the benefits. ERISA requires employers to provide something called a Summary Plan Description for covered employees. Maybe you could ask for that instead.

    3. Alice*

      If they are so un-helpful when they are theoretically trying to recruit you, how awful are they going to be when you’re there and stuck for a couple years? You dodged a bullet.

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        Yeah, that’s one of the reasons I turned it down. It also made me suspicious that they were one of those companies that likes to let go of employees who use too much of the health benefits.

    5. Ann Cognito*

      I’m in HR and it’s completely normal for us to have candidates want more details about benefits specifics at the negotiation stage. We don’t blink, and actually assume if someone doesn’t ask it’s because they have coverage through a partner/spouse. That HR person sucked!

    6. Buggy Crispino*

      I had close to the same situation – I was being made a preliminary offer and was told the benefits were “probably average to what everyone else is offering.” But they would never actually tell me what that was. They also said I would be receiving an official offer and benefits package soon and could I start in a week? Nothing ever came other than a couple of emails from the recruiter asking if I had gotten the information I needed and when would I accept the offer? I didn’t reply to the third email. They probably think they dodged a bullet and that I was too high maintenance.

  88. Tris Prior*

    I’m fairly new to my company, and my team’s culture is such that people talk a lot about their personal lives.

    A couple of my co-workers have family members who happen to have the same very serious health issue. I had a family member go through the same thing not long ago. It was very traumatic for me and I find it incredibly triggering to hear others talking about their family members’ issues in detail. When it happens around me (like in the next cubicle), I can put headphones on and tune out. But it happens often in face to face team meetings that I can’t leave, and I’m having a really hard time handling it. I just sort of freeze up and try and tune it out, so I don’t start crying, until they’ve finished talking about it.

    Is there any way that I can shut this down? All this sharing seems to be a really important part of my team’s culture and they’ve all been here for decades while I am new. They’re all friends. I’ve tried changing the subject or bringing up a work issue but a) that feels rude, like I’m interrupting their request for emotional support and b) they go right back to talking about their family member after my work question is answered. I’ve thought about saying something to my manager, but he is one of the offenders so I’m not sure how.

    I think it’s really weird that this is happening so often at work, and I’m not comfortable sharing details about my family with my co-workers, but this seems to be just how things are done here.

    And yes, I’m in therapy to try and deal with the past family trauma. My therapist basically said there’s nothing I can do about it and I’ll just need to tune it out or change the subject. I’m trying! But mostly failing. :( Has anyone dealt with this before? How did you handle it?

    1. Becky*

      When you say this often happens in face to face meetings, do you mean this happens in casual “water-cooler” talk or do you mean that this happens in work-related meetings that go off topic?

      If the former, excuse yourself with a “I need to get back to my desk” or “I’m sorry, I have a report I need to finish.”

      If the latter, that is most definitely something to bring up with manager/supervisor. It is incredibly inconsiderate to allow work meetings to get derailed on non-work topics regularly. Don’t even address the associated trauma with the supervisor, frame it as when meetings go off work topics they eat into your productivity.

      It is not rude to do either of these.

      1. Tris Prior*

        It happens in a regular work meeting that does tend to go off-topic a lot.

        The reason I haven’t used the productivity argument – which otherwise I already would have invoked – is that we’re in a period of downtime right now (our work goes in cycles) so everyone knows I don’t have much to do.

    2. Junior Dev*

      That really sucks, I’m sorry.

      I think talking to your manager might actually be a good idea–the key is to phrase it as a favor you’re asking rather than an accusation. I also think that while you shouldn’t have to reveal personal info, giving some context will help.

      Something like:

      “I wanted to get your advice on something. I’m glad we have a culture where people can talk with each other about their lives, but I recently lost a family member to XYZ disease and it’s really painful to hear about it. I try to tune it out by wearing headphones but I can’t do that when people discuss it it meetings. Do you have any advice for what I can say when we’re having a work conversation and people are taking about XYZ disease?”

      Hopefully if he’s decent and self-aware he’ll apologize for his role in it and offer to help prevent future discussions on the topic.

      Now…it’s possible he’s going to be a jerk about it and I don’t know what I’d advise you in that case.

      I had an issue where people would make jokes about being “triggered” at my old workplace. Stuff like “I’m triggered by this coffee,” “I couldn’t find parking this morning and I was triggered.” It really hurt because I have PTSD and it felt like they were mocking my disability (even though no one knew I had it). I talked to my boss and to a team lead about it and they apparently had a chat with some of the worst offenders.

      That’s a bit different because the jokes were actually offensive, whereas in your case there’s some positive aspect to what they’re saying for them–not that you don’t have a right to ask them to stop, though. I think you do, but the conversation is a bit less “don’t do the thing ever” and more “please indulge me by not doing the thing around me.”

    3. A574Girl*

      I really don’t think people are trying to bring up something painful for you. They probably find comfort in talking to someone else who also went through the same thing before. Just changing the subject isn’t working, because they probably don’t realize why you’re doing it.

      So, my best suggestion would be to be honest with them about why the subject is painful, but in vague terms. “Hey, you know, can we change the subject? I dealt with this medical issue too and it is still a little painful for me. Thanks.”

      If someone said that to me, I would be quick to both change the subject and apologize.

      1. Alice*

        From your description it sounds like this is a culture where people may turn out to be willing to change their behavior — but they aren’t going to be able to read your mind. A54Girl’s language seems great, either in the moment or with your boss.

    4. MC*

      Just a recommendation to not use the word “Triggered” – it’s a really new term and it seems to make people all anti-millennial for unknown reasons.

      You can say “When co-worker mentions their relative with illness, it reminds me of my relative that went through something similar and I miss very much.”

      1. Junior Dev*

        It’s not a new term but its current pop culture usage grew out of a clinical context, specifically PTSD. (There are other mental disorders that can have triggers as well but these don’t seem to correspond as closely to the popular usage.) I do agree that it will probably not be the best term to use when speaking to the boss or colleagues.

        1. Tris Prior*

          Oh, I would absolutely not use that term in the office. It is way too loaded.

          (also, not a millennial. :) )

    5. Not So NewReader*

      This may or may not fit your setting:

      You could say or give them a little note card with this message: “I am profoundly sorry to hear what your family members are going through. I just lost a family member from this, too. I hope you understand that when I talk about something else, it is not because I don’t care. It is because I DO care and I am not ready to talk about yet. I may not be ready for a while. Please KNOW my thoughts are with you and yours.”

      I like the little note card idea because it gives you space to say what you need to say and you don’t have to deal with immediate reactions.

      OTH, you could cue in a different coworker and ask them to pass that message along when they can. This idea is good from the angle that you don’t know when the message is passed and life goes on. The other good part about telling a different coworker is that person will probably continue to explain to others as needed. This is the route I have chosen in the past. I look for people who seem to be concerned and trustworthy people to deliver the message.

      People are amazing, they are great. When people know that something is going on most of the time they will work in a helpful manner. Just as these two coworkers need support, you need support also. Let people have small opportunities to support you, too.

      It sounds like you have more than one type of grief going on here all at the same time, so yes, it makes sense that it is going to take time and effort to work on it. Some losses leave us in a place where we have to re-weave our lives and rethink everything we know about life. This takes time.

      My go-to suggestion is to learn about grief, there are a lot of good books out there. And no, the books will not make you feel worse. Look for something where the author seems to resonate with you. A good book should describe the symptoms of grief and talk about the stages of grief. It should also go into all. the. different. things we grieve. We grieve medical issues, bankruptcies, lost jobs and lost dogs. And yes, we grieve lost relationships. Sometimes we lose a person twice, we lose them in life because of a poor relationship and we lose them once again in the finality of death. This is two losses, not one.

      Be patient with you. Talk kindly to yourself. Give yourself little treats that are supportive in nature, such as massages, water with electrolytes in it, mediation, relaxation tapes and so on. There’s lots of little things like this that you can look at to help yourself along. Nothing is the magic bullet, but all these little helps are cumulative. They do add up to something meaningful over time.

      I am sorry life has been so harsh, may you find wonderful people to help you rebuild your life with.

  89. Please Just Let Me Eat*

    Just a little background: I’m an admin at a law firm, I’m salaried, and my day ends at 6PM.

    My boss, the senior attorney at the firm, has a really extremely irritating habit of getting back to the office from an outside meeting or emerging from his office right on the dot of 5:57PM and…. calling me or my coworkers in for a meeting or asking me to do some tasks. These meetings run anywhere from half an hour to an hour and a half long, and the tasks might take me anywhere from half an hour to an hour. Every time he does this, he does it right before closing, as everyone is shutting off their computers and gathering up their bags to leave. A couple times he’s called me in just as I was waving goodbye from the door, jacket on and bag in hand, and summoned me into a client meeting where I stayed an extra hour.

    He’s always apologetic about it, and I know for a fact that he has TERRIBLE time management, but the fact is that I– I want to go home! I want to eat dinner! A couple of times I’ve fled by pleading prior plans. But I would feel awkward and unprofessional to say in front of clients (for example), “Sorry boss, I’ve got plans tonight, and can’t finish up this client’s [whatever]. BYE.” Or “I know this is the only time you’ve got this week to meet about [IMPORTANT FILE], but I’m hungry and need to go.”

    Whenever we’re hiring, he and the office manager, who he is very close with, always talk about how they don’t want to employ “clock watchers” who dash out of the office the moment it strikes 6PM. I already stay late at the office pretty frequently already, but the occasional times I’m ready to go at closing I always seem to get pulled back in. I feel like it’s really inconsiderate, but don’t know how to push back either on the spot and especially in front of clients, knowing that… wanting to leave on time, I guess, is one of my boss’s pet peeves.

    Any suggestions, wonderful commentariat? Should I just default to saying, “I’ve got plans” like some kind of passive aggressive broken record? Should I just run away real fast whenever I see my boss coming?

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      It’s probably when he sees people leaving that prompts him to grab them to finish tasks for the day. Maybe it would help if you proactively went to him at 4:00 or 5:00 pm and asked him if there were any urgent tasks that needed to be done that day.

      1. Please Just Let Me Eat*

        That’s true, and (when I remember, HA) I occasionally do that. It does help, to an extent. What’s difficult to avoid is when he comes in from out of office or sticks his head out of a client meeting, always at 5:55PM, to call us in.

    2. Biff*

      It might make sense to tell your boss you’ve signed up for something in the evenings, and then send an email around 10:30 in the morning asking if he needs to meet with you face to face that day. Just help him get into the habit of seeing you during work hours.

      1. Please Just Let Me Eat*

        That… is a great idea. I’ll have classes. Every evening. Classes for eating, and sometimes for watching netflix.

        1. Code Monkey, the SQL*

          If you don’t want to lie, sign up for something from Coursera.

          You have a Python coding class, or a business skills class or what have you, and you need to get moving. You can even pay for the certificate if you want, but if not, it’s free.

          (I may be eyeing the Osteoarchaeology class they are offering from Universitat Leiden – so cool)

    3. Amtelope*

      If you’re salaried, and if the boss and office manager have made a point of saying that they don’t want “clock watchers,” especially if it’s an office where the boss is working long hours, this may just be part of the deal. You may need to assume that you can’t count on getting out of the office until 7:00 or 7:30.

      1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

        I agree. I certainly think it is worth it to try some of the tactics the other commenters suggested to you to see if you can change this habit. At some point though, this is just how this boss is and, since you are salaried, it might be something you need to decide if you want to continue dealing with or not. Both your boss and office manager making the “clock watchers” comments certainly makes me think this is just how things are going to be but it doesn’t hurt to try to see if you can find a way around the issue if you are reasonably happy there.

        One thing to consider, when your boss gives you tasks at the end of the day, is he expecting you to complete those tasks right then or are they tasks that can be completed the next day? While you may not be able to get out of staying a bit late for the meetings, it’s worth finding out if you can do the task the next day to keep from staying even later.

    4. burnout*

      You are a salaried admin and I assume you mean exempt from overtime. Are you certain your duties pass the salaried exempt test? Maybe you should actually be non-exempt. You might look into that, it could make a difference for you.

      1. Cryptic Critter*

        Is it possible to arrange to come in an hour later in the morning? Despite what a office manager or boss thinks the hours “should be” in reality as you’ve described the actual work flow is demanding someone be there later than the set hours. I’d ask about it in the spirit of trying to be helpful and accommodating, something like “Hey boss we’re having a lot of later-day business come up and it’s turned into a regular pattern. Lawyer X needs someone to cover this and it would makes more sense if I start a little later so I can stay and assist, with it not always being out of the blue” That way you aren’t blindsided constantly.
        Sometimes even tho this stuff is right in everyones faces they just don’t see it and once put to words it makes much more sense for them.

  90. Encolpia*

    We recently hired a few new people who will start next year and report to me. One of them is agender and uses they/them pronouns. When I mentioned this to my boss, he responded by repeatedly using the wrong pronouns while essentially arguing against this person’s identity. I later overheard him describing this person to another co-worker and saying, “She identifies as gender neutral, so be sure to refer to her as such.” I can’t tell if my boss is doing this out of spite or if he actually doesn’t get it. He’s kind of a jerk, and our workplace feels like it’s stuck in the 1950s at times, so it could be either one.
    So how do I tactfully tell my boss that his behavior is unacceptable? I’m worried that if I’m too assertive about it he’ll be even more rude to this new employee, but if I stick with polite reminders he’ll just keep misgendering them. I’d really like to clear this up before the new employee starts so that they don’t have to deal with his disrespectful attitude.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      He obviously knows he’s being an ass and doesn’t care — indeed, revels in it. I would just pointedly use the new hire’s preferred pronouns around your boss and consider going to HR about how the boss is intentionally misgendering the new person, although depending on your HR department and company that can be risky.

    2. Tea*

      Do you know if the new employee knows the kind of hostile environment they’re walking into? If not, is there a way you can (discreetly, of course) give them a heads up on that.

      If you think actively confronting your boss about this will result in him digging his heels in and making more of an ass of himself, I’d probably stick with Comic Avenger’s suggestion to just pointedly use the correct pronouns for the new hire– and maybe give as many of your relevant coworkers a heads up as well about it. Maybe it will make it awkward enough if he’s the only one still misgendering them.

    3. Shelly*

      Unfortunately, if your state doesn’t have discrimination protections for gender identity, I don’t really know what you can do. I mean, you could go to HR, but since it might not be a protected category, they might not do anything. I wish I had better advice to offer.

    4. Jules the First*

      Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance.

      Going forward, just assume that he genuinely doesn’t understand how to refer to someone who is agender and correct him politely. “Actually, Wakeen, the correct pronoun for an a-gender person is ‘they'” over and over and over again until he corrects himself.

    5. Alton*

      I don’t have much advice other than to agree with what’s been said, but I wanted to say it’s great that you’re being supportive of the new hire. Coming out as non-binary is very challenging because a lot of people don’t get it/don’t respect it. Just the fact that your office has one person (you) who’s understanding is pretty significant, even if it doesn’t make up for your boss’s ignorance/stubbornness.

    6. LizB*

      Hm. Based on your boss’s comment to your coworker, it sounds like he might just not get it? (Or is maybe willfully misunderstanding.) I would definitely start by talking to your coworker and clarifying the appropriate pronouns, plus asking that coworker (if they are more understanding) to help you spread the word. Possible script: “Hey, I couldn’t help overhearing your conversation with Fergus earlier about my new hires — I just wanted to clarify that Alex actually uses they and them as their pronouns, not she and her. So, instead of saying “We should invite her to the meeting,” you can say “We should invite them to the meeting.”* I think Fergus may have misunderstood what I told him, and I didn’t want the misunderstanding to spread any further. I’m going to give everyone a heads up before Alex starts, but can you help me out by correcting people if you hear them using the wrong thing? I want to make sure Alex feels welcome here!”

      How much is your new hire going to have to interact with your boss? If the answer is “very rarely,” I might stick with the polite reminders as long as you can ensure all the people the new employee will interact with regularly will be respectful. You can also start with polite reminders, and go for a more serious conversation if those aren’t working after a day or two. If your boss doubles down on the misgendering, it may be worth going to the most sympathetic HR person you can find to discuss your options.

      *If your coworker understands how to use they/them pronouns, you can leave this bit out.

    7. Mazzy*

      He may be a jerk in other ways, but I don’t think not knowing how to acknowledge agender people means someone is stuck in the 1950s. Or even 2000s.

      Your comment itself acknowledges the person is biologically female. Can you see how this might be confusing for someone to get used to, if they’ve never dealt with it before? Not to mention that you won’t be able to completely ignore the person’s real gender – they will have to choose a bathroom, for example, and certain new hire paperwork, such as health insurance paperwork is going to ask gender. You can’t say “none of the above.” Have you worked through these and any other situations before expecting your boss to handle them correctly?

      1. Mela*

        Those issues are completely unrelated to how co-workers refer to them in casual conversation. Encolpia, I would go to HR right away to clarify if there is a policy, can we create a policy? Get the conversation started asap so hopefully it’s all decided before they start.

  91. Searching*

    Second round job interview today! Of course would be the week I got a giant zit the likes of which I’ve rarely seen since I was a teenager, grrr. But despite that, I think I’m ready. And somewhat nervous. But ready. I think.

      1. Searching*

        LOL, thanks! Zit notwithstanding, I feel the interview went very well. They will be making a decision next week, so we’ll see!

    2. Artemesia*

      Ah the age when wrinkles and zits cross in the night and often come to stay — it lasts, oh about 35 years.

  92. Legal Admin*

    I wanted to get a second opinion on something. This is my first time being eligible for health insurance at a job. I am still eligible to be covered under my guardian’s health insurance and it is a better plan. One of the benefits my office offers is putting money into an HSA every month. I feel like by not being on my office’s health insurance I am not receiving all of the compensation available to me. I did the math and I am saving my office a LOT of money by not signing on. My sibling suggested I ask for a raise or bonus to make up part of what I am missing. I’ve never had any experience with this before and honestly it feels a little aggressive to deny the health insurance and then ask for other compensation. Is this sort of negotiation normal? I have already been here for 9 months and feel like its too late maybe? Any advice or suggestions?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      It’s not normal, and definitely not after you’ve accepted their offer and starting the job.

      If you ask, they should (and very likely would) say no. Think through the future scenarios: what happens when you are not longer covered by your guardian’s health insurance? Would you be willing to take a pay cut at that point, to make up for the new costs they will incur? Should people who are married (and use their spouse’s health insurance) get a higher salary than unmarried people, who have to use the company’s health plan? etc.

    2. Mints*

      Yeah, this is one of those things where fair is considered offering the same perks to everyone, not that everyone uses the same perks. Like I don’t get day care subsidized or fmla, but they’re offered equally to everybody

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      You’re not going to be able to renegotiate at this point.

      Also, health insurance never really evens out across the board. There are always going to be people who cost more than others. That’s kinda the point. All sorts of things could cause you to need your work’s health insurance. And at that point you wouldn’t take a pay cut, would you?

    4. Legal Admin*

      Thank you all, this is all similar to what I was thinking but I wasn’t sure if I was missing anything. My sibling kept pushing me to negotiate and I’m glad I followed my gut and didn’t.

    5. H.C.*

      Agreed with others that you typically can’t negotiate health insurance into a pay raise.

      I believe Alison answered a similar question already in a previous post (the OP was on his/her parents’ plan and also wanted to negotiate a raise out of whatever the employer would’ve otherwise paid for premiums,) but for the life of me I can’t find that from Googling (maybe it was an open thread or short questions post?)

    6. Mazzy*

      Can I ask, why are you mentioning the HSA? Either you want to be on their plan or you don’t. The HSA is usually just a variation of plan – either you pay a bit every month and get regular insurance, or you have a set amount you have to pay cash for before you can use the insurance. At my job, that plan is $2000/year, so you need to spend $2000 before you can use the insurance. But then again, the plan costs you $0 over the course of the year because they eventually reimburse you for the $2000. But the $2000 HSA by itself is not a benefit you’d miss. It’s just a form of handling the expense of healthcare.

    7. Artemesia*

      The time to do this is when the decision is made not to sign on. If that ship has sailed then you wait until the next sign on period and basically say ‘I am considering signing up for the health insurance, but I could also continue on (sign up for) a private plan and use and HSA. Since the company plan costs $6000 a year, I wonder if it would be possible to receive a portion of that as a bonus; I was thinking $2000. This would save you $4000 a year and be good for me as well.’ My husband did this since my insurance was literally about 10% as costly as his firm’s, but he was a partner and everyone was happy not to have to pay the $20,000 insurance cost them and for him to take part of that in compensation. I don’t know if it is possible for an ordinary employee but if you want to try, it should be at the point of your planning to sign on to the plan so it is a negotiation — if you do this, then I won’t do that.

  93. DCGirl*

    I had lunch with someone from my highly dysfunctional old job this week. As you may recall, they guy I called the Teapot Operations Manager (Tom) and who was a real horse’s patoot, was promoted to that position, which was created for him, at the beginning of the year. He kept all of his old responsibilities, so he got new work on top everything else. I actually thought it was kind of funny, watching him try to do it all, since time management was totally not his long suit.

    Oh…. What the heck! We were all proposal professionals, managing the company’s response to Requests for Proposal (RFPs). His promotion had him managing the admin staff of the department. When I started there were five proposal professionals. When I left, it was down to three. One proposal position was redefined to become an admin position, focusing on data base management. One position wasn’t finally earlier this year when someone transferred to another department due to budget constraints.

    So, anyway, down to three proposal positions when I left. My position still has not been filled (it’s been six months) due to budget constraints, and now the other proposal professional has left — so Tom is left on his lonesome to run every proposal that the company does. My old manager, who used to supervise Tom before the department was split into having two managers, is the type of manager who only manages and never does any of the actual work. So, Tom is well and truly screwed at the moment. Apparently, the hours he’s putting in now are awful.

    I know I’m a horrible person, but I can’t stop smiling. I just had to share this with somebody,

    2. SophieChotek*

      So there are no proposal professionals left now? Three when you left, then you left (so that made 2), then the other proposal left (down to 1)…which is tom?

      I guess he probably really is having to put in long hours. But did they leave because of Tom?

      Sometimes “what goes around comes around” does leave one with a sense of schadenfreude

      1. DCGirl*

        Yup, Tom is both managing the admin side of the office and working on all the proposals. Too bad, so sad….

    3. Jules the First*

      I too take delight in knowing that my ex-boss is now saddled with the not-up-to-standard staffer he refused to let me fire as his one and only senior proposals professional until they manage to fill my role (which will take months, minimum). I take extra glee in knowing that said not-up-to-standard staffer is currently interviewing elsewhere….

      Let’s be horrible people together…

    4. Ann Furthermore*

      I had a similar experience last week. I had lunch with a friend from my old job, which I left at the end of October. Things are still wretched with no signs of improvement on the horizon.

      In addition to that, my old boss ended up in the hospital last week with a really scary viral infection. I’m convinced it was caused at least in part by the fact that she internalizes everything, and that place is an absolute pressure cooker, and has been for the last year or so. She’s home recuperating now. I sent her an email earlier in the week, telling her I hoped she was feeling better and to take some time for herself during the holidays. I really didn’t agree with some of the things she did, but I bear her no ill will. She’s a very nice person in an extremely difficult situation. She did send a quick reply and included that she’s having a hard time finding a replacement for me. I’m not surprised…I mean, I’m not a saint or anything, and there are other people out there with my skill set, but they are not a dime a dozen. I feel for her, but it was made clear to me that there would be no more advancement or development opportunities for me there, so it was time to go.

      I also got an automatic email from a job board that said “Former Employer is looking for candidates like you!” Yeah, I’ll bet they are. Heh heh heh.

  94. Bye Academia*

    Late to the thread, but I recently came across an article about the workplace ramifications of marijuana legalization. Based on this week’s letter, I thought others might be interested. Link to follow.

    2. Manders*

      Interesting! I’m in a state that legalized recreational pot, and the transition was pretty smooth, but I was surprised by some of the workplace issues that came up.

      For instance: some of my friends are police officers, and even though they are employed by a city where pot is legal and they cannot arrest someone for legal use of pot, they can’t consume it off the clock because they have to follow federal laws. They are, however, allowed to hang out in the same room as someone who’s smoking off the clock–but my friend who was undergoing a background check for the FBI had to leave the room.

      Companies are pretty much doing their own thing. My partner had to take a drug test to work as a translator, but was not tested before he started work as a high school teacher.

  95. SophieChotek*

    Any idea how to find a good life coach/job coach?
    I feel like I need help thinking about to talk about my skills – I think a lot of them are transferable, but I get totally frozen when I try to think of how to say that when I write cover letters, tweak my resume etc. Even though I hate spending money, it seems like it could be a good investment if I found a good person that could help me think of how to be better “sell myself” (rebrand?) better, rethink how to discuss (transferrable) skills? I feel like this is more than “resume help” — I am still transitioning between academia (and useless humanities grad degrees) and trying to find ways to make a living outside academic in corporate/non-profit.
    I’ve asked friends/family — no one seems to know one or be one. I mean there are dozens out there on the web with huge range of prices — how could I go about finding one that I would work with? etc.
    Anyone done something like this? Thanks.

    2. self employed*

      I think there are certifications, so you could start there with legit-seeming ones. I’d look for ones with actual coursework rather than “pay and we will give you a certificate.” Then I’d definitely ask for references of prior clients to ensure that the coach was good and people were satisfied with the services rendered.

  96. Mints*

    I have a quick rant about people who like the phone too much:
    A coworker asked me a question (emailed), I Googled some stuff and responded by email, and then she called me because she was surprised by the answer. She didn’t have anything to say, just “Wow that’s weird… I’m so surprised…” We were literally on the phone for ten minutes while she Googled things and read results out loud.

    She tends to ramble and I usually wait it out because I realize I’m more anti phone than I should be. (Sometimes these are instagram breaks.) I didn’t realize it had been ten minutes until I hung up -_-

  97. UGH*

    Because the folks in payroll interpret the word “midnight” differently than I do (and what idiot lawyer wrote a contract that just says midnight without being more specific?!?), I am not being compensated for time I worked, and I have to use PTO instead. And my worthless union is worthless. I am so glad it’s Friday.

    1. Jules the First*

      Hmmm. I’d have thought “midnight” was pretty self-defining…I’d run this past someone with a contract background, if you can.

      1. UGH*

        It’s surprisingly not. [And just for fun, what do you all think midnight means: the beginning of a day or the end of a day?] I googled it to try to get some backup for my position and the consensus seems to be that there’s no consensus. Because I’m in a union and have a contract, there’s not much I can do. I am trying very hard to let it go and not be angry at everybody I encounter today.

        1. Emi.*

          Are you asking whether “midnight on the 9th” is the midnight between the 8th and the 9th, or the midnight between the 9th and the 10th? My instinct is that it would be the midnight at the end of the 9th/beginning of the 10th, because that’s what “the paper is due at midnight” meant in college.

          1. UGH*

            That’s a reasonable interpretation. But I (and actually everybody else in my office) interpreted it as 12:00 AM, or the beginning of a day.

            2. Sadsack*

              I agree with Emi. That was my immediate interpretation as well. 12am on the 9th would be the beginning of the 9th and midnight on the 9th would be the end of the 9th. But yeah, that is really terrible writing.

            3. Mela*

              This is the correct interpretation. “Midnight” is 12:00AM, so midnight of the 9th is 8/9th. 11:59PM is the 8th. 12:00AM is the 9th.

        2. Artemesia*

          It is the end of the day. One minute or one second past midnight is the beginning of the day. There is someone who seriously thinks otherwise? A day has 24 hours the end of the last of the 24 hours is midnight.

    2. LCL*

      Midnight is a specific time. If you are working a nightshift that starts at 8 PM on the 1st, and work until 8 the following morning, you have worked through midnight.
      So it’s not that midnight is the start or end of your shift/day, that depends on your shift schedule.
      If you could provide a few details I might be able to offer an argument.

      1. UGH*

        There is not actually a universally recognized definition of when midnight is. It means different things to different people. I’m not actually asking for advice here, I’m just venting.

    3. Triangle Pose*

      I’m sorry you’re not going to paid for time worked! That sucks. IME, it has been generally accepted in the legal field that “midnight” means one minute after 11:59PM on X day. If the contract says “midnight on December 9, 2016” I don’t think it’s vague. I guess what you’re saying is that you would rather it say “midnight at the end of December 9, 2016” which I’ve never seen in a contract before.

      1. UGH*

        I’d like to see some citations for this. I looked specifically for a legal definition and I could not find any. Like I said, the consensus seems to be that there is not a consensus on what the term means.

        1. Artemesia*

          I googled too and was shocked since it seemed so obvious to me — obviously it is not obvious and people don’t agree.

  98. Clockwatcher*

    I’m an hourly employee, as are all of my co-workers. Working overtime (or weekends or holidays) is not allowed and the work we do cannot be done remotely, it’s all done from the office. We don’t have company phones or laptops and can’t access work or email outside of work. Our day ends at 4:00 p.m.

    We have a new manager who had had a meeting with us about how we are “clockwatching” and it is not professional to run out the door the second the clock hits 4. He says we shouldn’t leave right at 4 all the time. He has only ever managed salaried employees before but we are all hourly and most of us have trains/buses to catch and/or kids to pick up from daycare.

    How can we make him understand that it’s not unprofessional for us to stop working and plan leave once the office hours end and we are not being paid?

      1. Clockwatcher*

        We have reminded him that we don’t have overtime and it is not allowed but all he does is say that the extra time he wants isn’t overtime. He’s used to working with salaried people.

        1. paul*

          Just wait till you all turn in time sheets with you clocking out at 4:15 or 4:30 2-3 days a week…

          more seriously, less passive aggressively, this may be an HR situation. You absolutely get paid for hours worked, and overtime isn’t allowed. That doesnt’ leave a lot of flexibility. And if yo have an HR department and it’s worth the title, they’ll try to intervene to protect the company from liability if nothing else.

        2. Gazebo Slayer (formerly I'm a Little Teapot)*

          Ah. Translation: just clock out and keep working, and pretend I didn’t say so.

          He’s playing dumb, but he knows what he’s doing.

          It’s good that he’s trying to require this of everyone and everyone is refusing. He can’t really discipline the whole team at once – it’s a lot harder to push back when you’re the only one.

        3. catsAreCool*

          Is there a way to get HR in on this? HR is supposed to protect the company. The company doesn’t want to pay overtime and probably doesn’t want to risk getting in trouble by doing something illegal like asking people to do unpaid overtime. It sounds like he doesn’t understand that the extra time he wants IS overtime.

        4. Observer*

          What exactly does he mean by that?

          When he says that ask him “Are you asking us to work off the clock? You do know that we are legally NOT ALLOWED to waive our pay for those hours.”

        5. Observer*

          Oh, also, get this in writing (or email.) Any halfway competent HR person will be all over that in a heartbeat.

      2. Episkey*

        ^HA! Best response! And seriously, you absolutely could ask him if he realizes that you will all be required to be paid overtime for any time after 4 pm.

    2. SophieChotek*

      If you can’t work and not get paid…couldn’t you paid if he makes you work?

      that said (and I feel like there was a post similar to this a while ago), if you are done at 4pm, (my personal opinion only) you probably shouldn’t be actually leaving until a few minutes after 4pm. I’ve worked many hourly jobs and the managers don’t like it if you’re putting your jacket on at 5 minutes to (while sitting at your desk), packing up your briefcase, etc. Especially if there is work to be done up until end-time.

      One get to shut down one’s computer at 4pm on the dot…by the time everyone has shut down their computer, maybe straightened their desk, put on their jacket, it’s 4:05-4:10.

      Maybe he’s trying to say employees need to actually be “working” until 4pm, not getting ready to go at 10 minutes to 4? Just a thought.

      1. Clockwatcher*

        We can’t work overtime because it’s not allowed. He is telling us that when the clock above the door hits 4 we should not be walking out and leaving because it looks unprofessional. He’s used to working with salaried employees and doesn’t seem to get that once the clock hits 4 office hours are over and we are no longer being paid. We don’t deal with the public directly so it’s not like we are leaving customers hanging. He just doesn’t like that we walk out of the office door at 4.

        1. Natalie*

          Do you feel comfortable being more direct? “We are hourly employees, so if we are working we have to be paid, and since we normally work 40 hours a week this extra time is overtime. Since we’ve been told we can’t work overtime, we also can’t stay after 4.”

        2. Camellia*

          You didn’t really address SophieChotek’s question, though. Are you working right up until 4:00 and THEN putting on your coat, etc.? Because yes, they do have to pay you overtime for working, but putting on your coat/getting ready to leave does not constitute ‘working’ and they don’t have to pay you for that. Just as if you were required to be at your desk and ready to work at 8:00 AM you would need to get there a few minutes early to hang up your coat, get your coffee, whatever, and they don’t pay you for that time.

          1. BRR*

            I think it’s bad management to watch the clock that closely as long as everyone is completing their work but it’s harder to argue against packing up at 3:50 every day.

      2. tink*

        Eh, company I worked at had one hand + password scanner for clocking out in a building of over 50 people, and we got into a LOT of trouble if we clocked out early or late without our boss clearing it with the higher ups. There was usually a line that started forming at 4:59, because nobody wanted to be written up for clocking out late, and people from upstairs usually brought their stuff down with them because nobody wanted to fight the flow of traffic out of the building to get back to their desks for their coats or lunch boxes. Some places are just really unreasonable about it, and if Clockwatcher’s company is super strict about No Overtime (which it sounds like they are) and workers have to catch transit or get to daycare pickups on time, then I’m not really surprised that people are gathering their things a few minutes before clock out time so they can leave exactly on time as instructed.

      3. Observer*

        >>ne get to shut down one’s computer at 4pm on the dot…by the time everyone has shut down their computer, maybe straightened their desk, put on their jacket, it’s 4:05-4:10.<<

        That's just not the case. And, by the way, either "straightening the desk" is required work, in which case it's done on the clock, or it's not necessary work, and people shouldn't have to do that just to look "busy". Also, putting on a coat / jacket can take all of 30 seconds (and depending on where people work, the may not need a jacket, etc.)

    3. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      Tell him it is illegal not to pay you for work, you are all hourly, so if he’d like you to stay past 4, he needs to approve overtime

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      I might talk to HR. If you work extra hours, you have to be paid. Now, I mean, I would clock out at 4pm and then put on my coat and go. If you work more and don’t get paid, that is wage theft. I can’t imagine anyone would be okay with this.

    5. The IT Manager*

      What does he want? I don’t understand, but it seems like either he’s super dense (if you work longer than 4 that is overtime) or you’re miscommunicating with him.

      Are you and your co-workers shutting down your computer at3:55 and putting on your jackets so the moment the clocks hit 4 you’re walking out the door? Does he want you to not shut your computer down until 4 and then walk out around 4:05

      2. CMT*

        I don’t think that’s an unreasonable request to work until 4:00 and then get up and go. I mean, I wouldn’t love it, but I’d get it. Especially since OP is hourly. If you stop actual work 5 minutes early each day, it takes only a little over 2 weeks for you to essentially get a free hour’s pay out of your employer.

    6. BRR*

      I’d try asking him questions to get him to the right answer. So say you’re usual that you are non-exempt and cannot stay past four without being paid. When he says it’s not overtime ask him for clarification on what it is. Use a genuinely curious tone.

      Other than that I’d probably just repeat it and not drop it when this happens. Or bring it up to someone else.

  99. twice_actingdirector*

    I am currently looking for a new job. I live in a rural area and there aren’t likely to be any openings in my field in the foreseeable future. I’m looking at manager/director type roles and pretty willing to move wherever. My question is how do I address this in a cover letter? I understand if I’m looking in a specific city it would make sense to highlight something about that place. But how do you address, I really want to do this kind of work and there aren’t any other opportunities where I live, so I’m open to moving wherever the right job is? I’m not married and I don’t own property so actually moving is comparatively easy.

    1. Tea*

      I think you should tailor your cover letters by job offer to say that you are looking to make a move to [NEW CITY WHERE THE JOB IS], even if the truth of it is that you’re honestly willing to move wherever. For recruiters or hiring folks looking at a resume, someone non-local saying, “Yes, I want to move where you are!” sounds much more appealing than “I just want to leave where I am.”

  100. Sara*

    I work at a pretty small office (~20 people), and I’m fairly new (3 months). Chatting with some coworkers at our holiday party, it came up that they have dogs and I love dogs but can’t have one. In a vague way, I offered up that I’d be available for dog sitting. Good Idea? Bad Idea? If they ask me about dog sitting in the future, what should I be wary of? It’s not the dog sitting that I’d have an issue with (I dog/cat/etc sit for non-coworkers a couple times a year), but how to manage within a coworker situation.

    1. GigglyPuff*

      I think it’s been pretty much recommended here, that you shouldn’t do side business with co-workers because no matter the job and intentions you never know what might happen and it could get ugly fast and jeopardize your main career. Personally, I wouldn’t do it, especially in an office that size, where it’s presumably much closer quarters, and you’re still fairly new, so if it went bad it’d get around.

    2. BRR*

      I wouldn’t do business with coworkers. What if they don’t pay you on time? What if something happens to their pet through no fault of your own? What if their pet bites you? What if you see something odd in their house. The only business you should share with coworkers is the company’s business.

  101. SL #2*

    When your IT guy tries to install some sort of tracking/blocking software on all the company computers… only to make it impossible to print anything because apparently none of us have permission to do so anymore. I don’t think that was his intention.

  102. Natalie*

    Woot, I have a phone screen for a new job. (I’m not 100% actively looking, just putting out feelers in anticipation of the business closing in a year or two.) My old boss is hiring for an accounting position exactly where I’d want a next position to be. And it sounds like a really great company, and she has two young kids so that gives me some hope it would be a good place to be for the next few years as my husband and I want to have kids. I’m trying not to get too excited. :/

  103. Not good with nicknames*

    AAMers, I need your advice/stories/tips.
    I’m 3 months into a graduate job, my first post-university job. My grandpa died this morning, in an unexpected but not-a-complete-surprise turn of events, and I managed to mostly keep it together through the rest of the afternoon. This is my first experience with the death of someone close to me, and it’s hit me harder than I thought it would, so I’m not looking forward to next week.
    With that in mind, what are your tips for handling work when you’re grieving? How did you handle it? Is there anything you wish you’d done, or not done?
    Additional info/context: I’m in the UK; I get at least 1 day of compassionate leave, and I have a few days of holiday I can probably use; also my company is generally pretty flexible and generous, even to new graduate employees.

    1. Temperance*

      I got some very bad news at work a few weeks ago, and what I did was isolate myself and clue my boss in.

    2. Graciosa*

      Other than letting your boss know, you should handle this in whatever way makes sense to you. There is no formula for grieving.

      Some people find telling people openly helps them. Some people want the information to be known – at least to key work partners – but don’t want to discuss it themselves (the solution is to ask the boss to share the news an the request from the bereaved). Some people don’t want to talk about the loss at work at all and only tell the boss to address any absences but ask it to be kept private.

      I do recommend making sure you have supplies of tissues at home and anywhere else you’re likely to be. I found myself crying in my car more than I expected – *every* song on the radio reminded me, even if it was a brand new release the deceased would never get to hear.

      Let yourself cry when you feel like it. There are physiological reasons why this actually does help you, and trying to bottle it up won’t do you any favors. People are more understanding than you think if you give them a chance.

      I’m very sorry for your loss.

    3. paul*

      The first one’s the hardest. Personally, depending on the job, I’ve found being at work and occupied can help me. If it’s a job where you regularly deal with raging jerks, that doesn’t apply, but being able to lose myself in my dataset for a while when my great-aunt died recently was pretty soothing, a good way to get through some of it.

      But everyone’s different in how they handle it. If you really feel like you can’t keep it together, and your workplace isn’t horrible, be willing to take the compassionate leave. And don’t think it just goes away overnight; I visited a place my (long deceased) grandmother and us used to go to lately and started crying–and she’s been dead for 15 or 16 years now. And there’s a song I can’t listen to without thinking of a cousin that killed herself (Broken Window Serenade by Whiskey Meyers).

      But if you find yourself having a hard time focusing and thinking and getting through the day after a few days or a week don’t be afraid to try to see a counselor to work through it (and hopefully develop coping strategies).

    4. Not good with nicknames*

      Thank you all for your comments and kind words. I’ve emailed my boss (he was on holiday on Friday), now it’s kind of a waiting game until further arrangements can be made.

  104. YRH*

    I’m an attorney and became the second attorney at a small law firm this summer. In addition to the other attorney (who is definitely the boss), there are two paralegals and two legal assistants at the firm. What should I do about holiday gifts? I have the second highest title and make the second highest amount of money (though I am not in a lucrative area of the law), however one of the paralegals is arguably higher than me on the totem pole (long tenure at the firm, more experience in the substantive legal area, etc). That paralegal and one of the legal assistants (and of course the other attorney) have probably helped me the most since starting here. My thought is baked good everyone because it seems strange to just get something for those two or for everyone except my boss (since gifts should flow down) in such a small office. Anyone else have any thoughts?

    1. Tea*

      Baked goods aren’t a bad idea, but you’ll need to keep in mind things like allergies and personal taste. I’m a long-term admin in a small law firm, and here’s a few examples of small gifts my coworkers (associate attorneys, paralegals, legal assistants etc.) have exchanged around the holidays:

      – A small box or bag of fancy chocolates (think Ferrero Rochers or Lindt Truffles)
      – A nice cup or glass
      – Candles
      – Bath salts
      – A restaurant gift card, if you want to go a bit fancier
      – Fancy canisters of tea
      – Olive oil set

      I think the idea of something small, nice, consumable, relatively inexpensive and relatively re-giftable if they absolutely hate it, is the best way to go.

    2. Graciosa*

      I think that might work. I’ve been in a similar situation at a very small firm (I was the second attorney, but there was only one paralegal and a receptionist). A firm this small has only one boss, and you don’t want to look like you’re usurping her authority to give – or not give – real bonuses.

      The baked goods seem like a decent compromise, although you might gain both information and good will if you were to privately request some guidance from the senior paralegal with tenure. Demonstrations of respect – even relatively minor ones – can go a long way.

    3. YRH*

      And that of course should say baked good for everyone. I can type this morning. Thanks for your thoughts so far.

    5. Artemesia*

      This is something the firm should do, preferably by providing some goodies in the office and a cash bonus to employees at staff level rather than expecting individual gifts. That is how my husband’s firm handled it (also a small firm but several attorneys) With a token gift like baked goods you can not worry about ‘gifting up’ but just give everyone a loaf of your famous banana bread and be done with it. That sort of thing is not likely to make anyone uncomfortable. But really — the firm should give a holiday bonus if they can.

  105. Marche*

    This is my first time submitting annual material to my professional membership association, and it’s a little confusing. Partly because I’ve never had to do it before, so it’s taking me some time to figure out, and partly because I haven’t found a job, meaning that I don’t really know what to report in terms of professional development. However, I’m determined, and I’m going to contact the association to ask about all of it.

  106. Anon for this one*

    I’m so glad there’s an open thread today, because I have a time-sensitive dilemma. This is a little long, but please bear with me.

    I was laid off in September from a job I loved and while unemployed I interviewed with a company (Company 1) that I would really like to work for. (Corporate culture is in line with my previous job, I really liked the people I met, good commute, great reputation, among other things.) The day after I interviewed with the entire team they asked me to come in for a skills test, which we set up for the following week. The day before I was scheduled to come in for the test, they called to tell me they had gotten word from on high that the position wasn’t going to be filled until after the New Year. I went in for the test anyway, and then didn’t hear anything for the next several weeks. In that time, another company approached me (I hadn’t applied there) and very quickly offered me a position. There was some shadiness about how the interview process went, and in retrospect, if I knew then what I know now, I would not have accepted this job. It’s a bad fit for a number of reasons that became clear almost immediately after starting, but as I had no job, I wasn’t really in a position to not take it.
    The week after I started, one of the people I interviewed with at Company 1 reached out to tell me they were still interested in me. I did not tell them I had started a new job, but did say I was still interested. She did ask me to tell them if I got any offers, though said they wouldn’t be able to do anything about it. It seemed like a bad plan to tell them I was already looking to jump ship, so I assured her I still wanted to work with them, and that we’d stay in touch.
    Fast forward to today, the team executive from Company 1, who I also interviewed with, connected with me on Linkedin and then sent a message congratulating me on my new position, wishing me well in it and saying we should get together after the holidays. I think she (wrongly) assumed I had taken this job without letting them know and that I’m not available anymore. I responded that I was happy to hear from her, and was still interested in working with Company 1, and would love to meet up after the holidays.
    I am waiting for a response, but I’m wondering if I should reach out to my other contact at Company 1 to let her know I still want to work there, and if I do how candid should I be about the fact that I took this job, that it’s a bad fit and that I don’t want to stay here. I’d love to hear people’s thoughts on this one.

    1. MsCHX*

      As I was reading I was thinking, it really is NO skin off your back to leave company 2 and go to Company 1. But then got to the Linked in part. I don’t use LI and this is another con for me. I would prefer to control my own flow of information. Sorry, I have no other advice. :(

    2. The IT Manager*

      That’s touchy, but I think you should reach out to contact at Company 1 and let her know you’re still interested. Holiday well wishes and saying you’re looking forward to renewing your application (not quite the right word) in the new year.

    3. Jules the First*

      I think you handled it fine – that’s exactly what I would have done. When you meet up after the holidays, you can say that you’re not sure the fit at Company 2 is right because (insert plausible reason that Company 1 would be better at) and if he’s interested, he’ll pipe up.

  107. Addison*

    Awkward: Our company sent out this fun, colorful flyer about a continuing education partnership…….. with University of Phoenix. We’re very snobby about our hiring here, so why on earth would they advertise ConEd stuff for someplace I know they’d never accept anyone from?

    Just when I thought I couldn’t headdesk about this job any harder than I already do.

  108. Lauren*

    How do I bring up gender bias issues to the leadership team without coming out and saying they are problem?

    We have company culture meetings starting soon to ask for ideas to improve blah, and they always end up being ‘let’s drink more, let’s do team outings, can you pay for lunch?’ crap.

    I want to talk about real stuff. I have out of town client meetings next week and will have face time with higher ups from my office. I will likely be going to dinner with everyone, and I have a feeling I will be asked my ideas for how to improve the company culture.

    Part of me wants to have a cutting comment that gets them thinking. I don’t care about backlash since my direct SVP isn’t like this. I want to say something like “well I don’t like the gender bias feedback the women of the office get from you guys, but i’m on Bill’s team now so it doesn’t directly affect me anymore.”

    What can I say? I want these guys to stop with the confidence feedback that only seems to happen to women and how introverts can’t be leaders stuff (which ends up being most of the women here). Honestly, its basically one guy who says all of this, and the entire office except 2 people (me and another person) that reports to him.

    I’ve thought about saying ‘now that more than 70% of the office are women, I’d like to see everyone who participates in reviews get some formal unconscious gender bias training’.

    1. paul*

      Can you cite specifics of feedback that’s gender biased? generally, having something concrete to point to is going to helpful.

      1. Lauren*

        I don’t want to get into the examples that end up getting debating as not a problem and ‘oh i didn’t mean that’. I want the end result to be the formal training not a discussion that dies off with a he said / she said or ‘you’re taking this way too personally’.

        I will bring up the confidence thing and the introvert thing if I am force to give an example, but again don’t want to be a debate on the examples.

        I want to say something generic that leads to those men getting training, and also bring up they should attend it and not skip it, which usually happens here.

        1. fposte*

          I think generic doesn’t get you anything, though, let alone training, and that if you’re not willing to openly say that you’re talking about gender bias it’s not likely to be addressed.

          What you usually want is a collection of specifics that demonstrate a pattern–it’s not generic, but it’s not a one-off. I don’t know if the introverts stuff gets you there unless there are male introverts who never get told that. I’m not sure what you mean by “confidence feedback,” so that will depend on the specifics. (In general a cutting remark doesn’t make people think, so I wouldn’t go that route anyway.)

          However, it sounds like you may have an opportunity for a more nuanced discussion coming up, and I think you could approach it a different way by noting your impression that traditionally male behaviors are disproportionately valued here and that means therefore people who don’t fit that mold have a big obstacle to excelling.

          1. paul*

            Yep. You need specifics, and you need more than one of them. If all you can point to are vague feelings, without concrete examples, you’re not likely to get very far (and this goes for pretty much anything, not just feelings of gender bias).

            1. Lauren*

              The examples are all about one boss though. I was hoping making it a generic thing about being proactive with ‘how to recognize gender bias’ training would be something that would be easier to swallow than ‘hey, it’s you – example, example, example – YUP, IT’S YOU.’

              Maybe I don’t even mention gender bias training, and just ask him to explain his introvert / extrovert theory so that everyone hear’s how he really thinks.

              1. fposte*

                Yeah, that kind of plan never works, and it only serves to insult people to whom it doesn’t apply.

                But asking him why he thinks that is a perfectly reasonable response. It may even turn out to make sense to you in a non-gendered way, even if you don’t agree with him.

              2. Artemesia*

                Generic never works as people who do this never recognize themselves. And it annoys the fire out of people who are not doing whatever you are trying to change. You need to tackle this guy.

                1. Lauren*

                  Turns out they didn’t even speak to me at all. I got to the airport, and they saw me and pretended not to see me and stayed to themselves – so I stayed where I was sitting until the plane boarded. I didn’t sit near them so that was good. It was silence during dinner once we landed, and any time when it was just me and the 3 guys during the trip. The only time they engaged with me was when others were around during the client stuff. Then on the way back and sitting in the airport, silence again.

                  During the dinner, I asked about the next day and tried to engage when they talked to each other – but I just gave up after an hour. I finished eating, asked when everyone was meeting in the morning, and said good night. Maybe I am not approachable with my contempt for them shining through. I’m giving up on them, and just focusing on filtering stuff through the others on the leadership team that listen and ask me what I think.

  109. LivingInCrazyTown*

    I’m having a frustrating time at work lately. We have an exec so ridiculously cartoon villain like that I’m writing a feature-length screenplay AND a pilot (to enter in Sundance’s episodic content development contest) drawing on my experiences here. I’m ready to leave and have started a side project (needs funding to become my FT gig) and a job search, but I can’t jump ship immediately without sabotaging the coworkers I DO care about, because of some Top Secret Stuff happening on the corporate development side–my CEO confided that departures at the department head level at this time would be a Very Bad Thing for everyone.

    The latest Cartoon Villain Behavior: Sabotaged us to our own client from a fake email address she created to complain about us to our client, then leapt into action as herself to calm down the client, save the day, and receive CEO kudos. Literally everyone except CEO can see the obvious fingerprints on the fake email (it mentioned stuff that only employees + 100 specific customers would know & isn’t one of those 100 customers, nor did any of them forward that information to anyone) but CEO wants “absolute proof” and of course we don’t have forensic evidence….

    It’s driving everyone up a wall. My normally level-headed manager had some sort of weird meltdown a couple of days ago where he got angry at me for working from home for two days (we have a liberal WFH policy and I had a legitimate reason – apartment issues that made it impossible for me to shower at home) called my working from home “contagious” and blamed me for three other people wanting to work from home on the same day. Everyone has also become paranoid, and some of the team is dealing with the stress level by drinking at 2 PM on work days or playing Nintendo in the back room for half the day. Unfortunately the people who ARE still trying to hold it together seem to get more heat than the people who’ve totally given up.

    The weirdest part is everyone under the executive level (and one of the executives) get along great & when the rest of the execs are out of office occasionally, we get shit done easily together. I love the “soldiers” but our generals are just… awful. The CEO is well-intentioned but has no accountability for his exec team. The COO has moved out of state and barely checks in to work anymore. The CPO is well meaning but commands little respect in the office and is generally perceived as a good coach but a weak leader. And the CMO is a cartoon villain.

    (CMO also thinks I’m trying to kill her. Literally. I have the accusation in writing. I reported some concerns to HR & she responded by saying that being questioned by HR caused her a panic attack which sent her to the emergency room and that I must be trying to kill her. Since then, she’s made a point of checking my calendar for medical appointments and sending me urgent work to do whenever I’m out of office to see the doctor. I had a minor elective surgery a couple weeks ago & put my surgical appointment at 10:15 AM on my calendar – she had her assistant call me at 8 with an “emergency” needing work from me by 10:30 AM.)

    I’m largely just venting here, but I’m so frustrated. I don’t want to sabotage the rest of my team & I can’t afford to quit without another job lined up, but I can’t handle this forever. My productivity has tanked, I’m not sleeping well, and I’ve become quick to anger and paranoid (traits of the Cartoon Villain CMO, not MY natural traits – I’m turning into her!)

    UGH. Tell me cartoon villain boss stories and about how your next job was amazing and helped you heal all that trauma!

    I’m going to therapy, trying hard to start a regular meditation practice, I spend at least a few hours in state parks every weekend without cell service so work CAN’T reach me, and I’m doing my best to take care of my health + increase my satisfaction with my side projects, but there’s just nothing that really quite fixes “spending 60 hours a week with a cartoon villain.”

    1. Manders*

      Oh my god, that’s nuts.

      I had an orthopedic surgeon for a boss once. He tried to put all his money into gold because he thought we were still on gold standard, and his proposed solution to the ebola crisis was “quarantining all the planes from Africa.” I would have trusted him with my life on the operating table, but he literally had the mindset of a scared child about everything else in life.

      1. LivingInCrazyTown*

        How is it that so many good surgeons are batshit outside the OR? I have an uncle who’s a genius neurosurgeon, but once had a three week marriage because he’s so intolerable…

        1. Manders*

          In many cases, surgeons are people who have fantastic book smarts on one particular subject, but have never actually had a career or even a job outside of medicine. For their whole lives, they’re told that they’re more intelligent than everyone else, so they never develop the sense that there are things they can’t understand or control.

          They’re also so valuable that hospitals usually won’t discipline them for weird behavior, and if they go into private practice, they can get even more eccentric without anyone having the ability to call them out. Some of them may also have gone into surgery instead of a less stressful field of medicine because they like the fact that surgeons get so much power and money, or because it’s a field where a good bedside manner is not a requirement. For someone who’s already hovering on the edge of oddness, it’s definitely enough to tip them over the edge into full-blown batshittery.

          I, uh, definitely worked with surgeons too long.

          2. Artemesia*

            My husband used to prosecute securities fraud and doctors are among the most common marks for fraudulent business scams. They think they are very smart when in fact they are highly trained plumbers that often have no education outside their scientific specialty. They also on average tend to be stingy with their money i.e. I earned it all and those poor people charities help? Well let them earn their own medical care or housing or whatever. (obviously there are huge exceptions here but the norm is conservative and stingy) But it was kind of amusing to see the ridiculous money making schemes they would sign on for thinking they were geniuses at investment because they were excellent chemistry students and went to med school.

    2. an anonymous potato*

      H o l y s h i t.

      I don’t have much in the way of cartoon villain stories (we had a client whose life was a neverending cycle of drama relating to addiction, gambling, and begging, blackmailing, and borrowing money from every single person around her and screwing them out of large sums of cash, but…), just lots and lots of sympathy and a lot of well wishing that you escape from that flaming tire fire and into something a hundred times better.

      At the very least, you’ll have enough material to fill your screenplay, seasons 1 and 2, and then some. Best of luck with that.

      1. LivingInCrazyTown*

        It seriously is the BEST source of constant material I’ve ever been around. I’m going to have to portion these stories out across multiple characters though because she’s so evil it’s unrealistic as a single character! :| The pilot I’m writing is about a rapidly growing startup whose cofounders have come to hate each other but have taken an investment whose terms severely punish a cofounder who quits–so they’re in a Mr. & Mrs. Smith style cold war where they both want out, but they are instead sabotaging each other to try to get them to quit. I’ve got so many real life stories of sabotage from Cartoon Villain CMO that I won’t have to make anything up at all…

        Truth truly is stranger than fiction.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      I’m pretty sure you could talk to the execs from Lifetime and get a movie deal out of this…
      But aside from drinking, I’m not sure how to deal with this. When I was working for a loon I dank, more than I probably should have, and doubled down on my job search.

      1. LivingInCrazyTown*

        OMG. It would be a perfect Lifetime movie if only somehow I could be the naive housewife who starts working here and somehow ultimately triumphs over the abusive execs… :)

        The amount of drinking and drugs happening in this office is off the charts. Even the only decent executive has openly had his dealer come drop off drugs at the office. (Legal in this state, but not federally.)

    4. Mirax*

      My first-ever job was for a Cartoon Villain boss whose main tactic was emotional manipulation–he basically used a one-two praise/guilt combo punch to get me to take responsibility for managing the emotional/mental health of another employee, who had serious anxiety and depression issues, and deliberately fostered an unhealthy codependence between us to keep the other guy functional. Double skeevy points: I was a teenage girl and the anxious employee was a man ten years older than me.

      As you can probably guess, this totally screwed up my internal yardstick for normal workplace behavior.

    5. JKP*

      I worked for a cartoon villain boss for a year. So many unbelievable stories. She made sure she had the only logins for all the systems in the business, even after I asked the owner if maybe he shouldn’t also have his own logins – just in case something happened to her. On a regular basis, she would get upset with something an employee or customer said to her (basically anytime she was held accountable for anything) and storm out and refuse to come into work for sometimes 1 or 2 weeks. Meanwhile, no one could do anything because no one could login to anything. The owner would sweet talk her into returning, and her attitude would be that the business couldn’t survive without her (yeah, because she locked everyone out of everything).

      One time, the employees were being too pushy about getting their paychecks, so she stormed out without doing payroll, and we had a lobby full of angry employees demanding to be paid. The owner had to pull out his personal checkbook and write personal checks to each employee based on his best estimate of what their check should have been.

      Another time, a customer for a large event kept delaying paying their bill. So she didn’t pay any of the employees for weeks “because the customer hadn’t even paid for the event yet.” And when I reminded her that she was still responsible for paying her employees even if the customer never ended up paying their bill, she stormed off in a huff yet again.

      After I left (for a much better, less stressful job), I got a frantic phone call from the business because she had stormed off in a huff (yet again) in the middle of some poor woman’s wedding, and they were desperately trying to figure out workarounds to finish out the wedding reception without access to many of the key systems and I had to help walk them through stuff over the phone.

      1. Artemesia*

        I’ll have to say, an owner who would allow this for a second deserves the catastrophe that is his business. I did some consulting with small businesses and small departments and it was pretty common for the problem to be someone hoarding access or information. Any time you have only one person who can do something, especially if they make it mysterious as if only a genius could do it, you have a need to cross train, fire someone or both. That this owner didn’t require his own logins THAT DAY says all you need to know about getting out of there. Wow.

        1. JKP*

          After I left, she left, and the managers after were even worse. The owner called me one day (years after I no longer worked there) needing some info because one of his managers was in jail for stabbing the other manager (who was in the hospital). If I tried to write a novel including everything that happened there, no one would ever believe it.

    6. tink*

      Is your CMO my old supervisor?????? (She didn’t put “trying to kill her” in writing, but she said it to customers in front of me and when I wasn’t on shift for several days after, and it was really humiliating.)

      I’m sorry that you’re dealing with that level of terrible cartoon villainy made flesh.

    7. Artemesia*

      I would absolutely NOT make my own exit decisions to shield anyone in this zoo. I would line up something and leave asap; don’t cripple your own career to protect co-workers; would they do the same? What a nightmare. Of course you CAN immediately jump ship if the opportunity arises and should.

  110. Nancy*

    I just got done reading Alison’s book on how to get a job. Its great, I’m glad a lot of it I already knew, but it was a great refresher and update on the more current job market. I’ve been in search of leaving my current job (8 years),seriously, for about 3 months. I put in an application for a position at the beginning of that 3 months and didn’t hear anything, so I assumed I was not on their list of viable candidates. Just yesterday, they called me to schedule a phone interview. I did accept, as I’m curious as to what they are offering (though its a big decision, as I will have to relocate), but its been 3 months. I didn’t keep the job description and they no longer list it. I mostly remember what the position entailed, but I feel like it puts me at a disadvantage to give my best impression. Are there any suggestions?

    PS- I asked a while ago a question about approaching my boss for opportunities to grow or move in my department. She was very professional, but open with me. In fact, from the information she gave me, it has solidified my resolve to find a new job (I love my work place, but I can’t grow here). I think she was glad I approached her, so that she had a professional opening to give me information that could “develop” my career further. Thank you for the advice you gave.

  111. New Mama*

    I’m currently on maternity leave and have just decided to quit my job at a company of less than 50 employees to be a stay at home mom. I would like to give them notice now while I’m on leave, but recently I’ve run across some sources* that have made mention of the fact that in some states, you have to pay back any salary and benefits received while you were on maternity leave if you quit. Does anyone know if this is true and what states this applies to? Are there other legal or salary/benefits ramifications to quitting after maternity leave? I’m having trouble finding specific information. Thank you in advance.

    *For example: See mid-way through the third full paragraph of this Fast Company article https://www.fastcompany.com/3051790/second-shift/how-to-quit-your-job-while-on-maternity-leave

    1. New Mama*

      Sorry, I just noticed Alison’s small asterisk comment about not posting a question that’s been submitted via email to her. I’m bleary eyed and sleep deprived. Please forgive me!

    2. New Bee*

      I don’t have any answers (I’m in CA and my job doesn’t make us pay back, which I found out by discreetly asking another new mom), but solidarity! My baby just turned 4 weeks.

      1. New Mama*

        Thanks, I appreciate that. And Congratulations!! I asked my friend who is a benefits professional and she said that there are no laws in my state that require payback. Also, I can’t find any written company policy about this.

        I feel for any moms who don’t know about this potential issue in advance.

  112. Rincat*

    I have a third interview today. It’s with another department on campus, and the position is not one I originally applied for, but another one that the hiring managers thought I’d be a better fit for. I’m really excited about the position, but we haven’t discussed salary yet. I’m SUPER nervous about this. I’ve done all my research in regards to salary, and read all the advice on AAM, but I still am afraid they’re just going to laugh at me when I bring up my desired salary range.

    The good part of it is that this is my second in-person interview (first was a phone), and I was strangely relaxed around these hiring managers, so I’m not too worried about talking with them overall, just about the salary bit.

    Also I had a hair dye mishap earlier this week and now my hair is somewhat pink. :/ I’m going to pull it back but hopefully they won’t mind a bit of pink mixed in with the blonde!

  113. Huh*

    One of our staff claimed she injured her back in the workplace from heavy lifting. She got a medical certificate declaring her unfit to work for 2 weeks. That same day she emailed me to say she wishes to formally report unfair treatment at work.

    I had a meeting with her the following day and she limped in looking like someone who just got out of surgery. She took ages to sit down and was hunched over, moaning in pain.

    During the meeting I quickly realised her complaints had no substance. She was the worst performer in her team and her manager gave her feedback to try to get her to improve. Among her complaint was “Manager keeps telling me I made mistakes but she doesn’t say that to anyone else.” The rest of the meeting she whined about petty things and frequently contradicted herself.

    As the meeting progressed she forgot about her back “injury” and was freely moving about, sitting up, twisting and turning etc. Then at the end of the meeting she suddenly remembered again, and dramatically collapsed on the table as she stood. She grabbed the wall to support herself as she limped out again.

    Hilariously, I saw her again 3 min after the meeting ended, outside of the office. She was running down stairs completely normally, healthy as ever.

    As she had a “workplace injury” she can claim nearly her full income for as long as she likes. There is nothing I can do about it because she submitted all the right paperwork and got an idiot doctor to say she is gravely injured. This really sucks

    1. Menacia*

      While it may not seem like it now, what goes around, comes around. The best thing for you to do is concentrate more on the people who come to work every day and do their job. The amount of effort I saw wasted on my coworker (who was finally fired) was really demoralizing. Instead of focusing on the people actually doing the work, the focus was on the ONE person who did not, would be out for months at a time, and was always complaining and whining to everyone about his job. I wonder if someone is coaching your employee on how to milk the system, seems odd that she would have a workplace injury which keeps her out of work as well as submitting a formal complaint about “unfair treatment”. Could she be laying the groundwork for something larger?

      1. Huh*

        Thank you for the timely reminder to focus on people who do well.

        The faker had her employment terminated. We handled everything strictly according to law so I can’t imagine she has anything she could action.

        It makes me angry when I see people milking the system like this.

    2. animaniactoo*

      You can report her for potential fraud. Somewhere in there, there’s an insurance payout, and insurance companies usually have investigators who are capable of following up and catching the proof of her doing things like running down stairs when she supposedly can barely walk.

      1. Jessica*

        This is true. I used to work at an investigative company that handled workplace fraud; it was my first full-time job out of college. (I was the receptionist, and I also edited the investigators’ reports.) We had investigators who would actually tail people suspected of fraud and get video of them performing activities they’d said they couldn’t do. Let your insurance company know about the possible fraud. They’ll almost certainly be interested in following up.

        1. Huh*

          I live outside of the US so quite a different system here. The insurance company called me regarding the date of injury and I mentioned my concerns to her. It was obvious she couldn’t or wouldn’t action anything. Reality is if someone is claiming to have pain then it’s virtually impossible to prove otherwise. So all I can wish for is karma to kick her ass later.

  114. Me *sigh**

    I had a job interview this week at a really nice office with a really nice potential boss. But once I got in there, it took all of ten minutes to find out that one of the major components of the job (which was one vague line in the description) happened to be the exact kind of data analysis my old job became. The kind I cannot do. :( The rest of the job sounded perfect for me, but there was no emphasis on that one thing. I had a note to ask about it and I was trying to explain why I had left my last job. When I said numbers were difficult, that’s when it came out.

    Maybe write better job descriptions, employers, please?

    Also, they posted my old job online; it’s showing up in external listings. Just out of curiosity, I looked at it, and it is totally different from what it was when I first got hired, with a lot more emphasis on the budget/forecasting stuff. So I was right that even if I had been 100% Pollyanna, there is no way I could have continued in that job as it is now.

    I’ve been looking at listings that include editing and writing but I either don’t have enough experience in the listed field, or I lack any experience with layout software. There is no monetary way I can go back to finish that writing program at uni–the main reason I quit was because once I got NewExJob, I no longer qualified for VR assistance and I would have had to borrow even more money (and I’m sick to death of school anyway; it’s too much money/work for too little return).

    All the listed jobs I can do don’t pay a living wage.
    If I took one, I couldn’t save anything.
    I can’t afford to move.
    Freelancing is hopeless because I don’t have enough experience to actually do it, nor can I handle the financial aspect. Building that would take forever and I need income now. I’ve tried to scrape together anything I can for a portfolio–it’s very little and I don’t really know what to do with it. I have nothing from NewExJob except one thing I did in school. Everything else was proprietary.

    The universe must have something going on. Oddly, someone completely random started talking to me in Walmart last week (that has NEVER EVER happened before!), and we chatted, and she said all the stuff I’m going through is CHANGE, not disaster. But I am at a loss to figure out what is happening. It just looks like the same old disasters again.

    All I can do right now is apply to stuff (three per week for UI) and work on my revisions. I have set my deadline as the second week in January and will start querying again then. At least I have time for that now, even if it pays nothing.

    I did ask for total change to all good things, so we’ll see. :\

    2. MissGirl*

      I’m sorry. This is where I was a year and a half ago. A lot of writing, editing, and some design but no job prospects. I’m in the process of reinventing myself. What is the layout software the other jobs are requiring? Are they Adobe programs like InDesign or InCopy? Is it editor level knowledge they want? If so, it’s not hard to learn. You could so some tutorials online and training. It’s really not that hard to enter in type corrections in these files.

      1. Me *sigh**

        Adobe online training would be fine, if they hadn’t switched to a subscription model. Through school, I could get a discount on the subscription, but I’m not in school anymore and I can’t manage it on UI payments. I have ONE piece I did in school in InDesign that actually turned out pretty well (layout exercise), but I haven’t touched it since. There was no need to use anything but Word and Acrobat at NewExJob and no access to InDesign there. The Doc department had some kind of specialized software; however, I was an admin and didn’t use that either. I don’t think I’m a design person, haha. I really struggled in that unit of my advanced tech writing class. I still have my school books and could practice, but I’d need access to the software.

        I did apply for a job as a web content writer for some kitchen store, so who knows? Maybe if I get it, I can learn some stuff (though the pay is abysmal).

  115. Mallory Janis Ian*

    My direct report is being called in to HR today for a verbal warning about a sexist comment he made to a coworker.

    He told the coworker that she needs to “quit being a timid woman and get a pair of balls and speak up” for herself.

    She told him that was the most offensive thing anyone had ever said to her, and he doubled down on his stupidity by saying, “you’ve had a pretty vanilla life if that’s the most offensive thing you’ve ever heard.”

    She said, “Well, it’s the most sexist and offensive thing anyone has ever said to me in the workplace,” and he doubled down even more by saying that it’s “not sexist if it’s a joke and not meant seriously.”

    This is the direct report that I’ve already been to HR about for advice on how to handle his other inappropriate behavior, so the HR rep already has a file started on him. I have been very direct in calling this guy on his behavior, and have used the language advised by HR in doing so, but he seems unable or unwilling to learn. He seems to think that his behavior is okay, and that I’m just a stodgy middle-aged woman trying to repress his edgy, young-guy humor. Now his behavior has landed him in trouble with HR, with mandatory reporting to the campus OEOC (Office of Equal Opportunity Compliance), and I hope he learns his lesson.

    He is going to end up on probation, and if there are any other incidents between now and his one-year evaluation in June, he could be fired. I’ve already had a meeting with him where I told him that his behavior could land him on probation and lead to possible firing, but that has not led to lasting improvement. He behaves himself for a couple of weeks after each time I’ve spoken with him, but then he goes back to his version of “normal” (which for him, is “jackass”).

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        State university processes that have to be followed before being allowed to fire anyone. That’s why I went to HR to start the process as soon as I noticed a problem with him.

        1. catsAreCool*

          Sounds like you’re doing the right thing. Tough that it takes a while to deal with him. On the plus side, this is a direct report, not your supervisor, and you can deal with him.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      Sounds like you need weekly meetings/check-ins to make sure he’s staying on track.

      1. paul*

        and I want to point out that this was in the late 90s in redneck central in rural CO. That wouldn’t be acceptable then and there, let alone now. Wow. Just wow.

    5. babblemouth*

      “edgy, young-guy humor”
      Right, because sexist jokes have been invented by Generation Y and Z. NO ONE before ever thought of making an inappropriate joke to a woman.
      I’m glad you’re taking steps to get rid of him. He’s probably playing a narrative in his head that makes HIM the real victim here.

  116. sitting with sad salad*

    What is the longest and most stressful commute that you would put up with?

    My commute to my office is about 1.5 hours – 1.75 hours each way. I take a regional train to NYC and then 2 subway trains. Almost every afternoon I also have to visit sites located around the city, which means more travel time during the day. Its expensive and I am getting burnt out from all the train time!

    1. J*

      I had a 1.5 hour commute door-to-door, thay was dependent on public tranaportation. I actively worked for a closer job the entire time. I would say my max now is 45 minutes, but I would strongly prefer 20 minutes.

    2. Menacia*

      My commute can be anywhere from 30 minutes to 3 hours (one way) depending upon traffic and weather. I LOVED taking public transportation (lived outside of Boston and commuted in daily) and would go back to that in a heartbeat. Driving is an anxiety-inducing nightmare, especially because of inconsiderate drivers. :(

    3. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      They have done studies on this – commute time impacts happiness far more than home size/quality. Basically, a smaller/not as nice home with a short commute will have someone happier than a big/really nice house with a super long commute. When I read that I knew how true it was for me, so I think about that whenever I am job hunting. The longest commute I have had was over an hour, and most of it traffic. I was miserable and it made me hate the job more than I already hated. The next longest was an hour but no traffic – or at least very little. I was moving the whole drive so it didn’t *feel* like an hour. My ideal commute is no more than 25-35 minutes and that is where I am now.

      1. sitting with sad salad*

        Yes, I agree. We do have an amazing apartment which we could never afford in the city, but we also chose to live there because it is close to my partner’s family and his job. Although I am happy in my job, I have started looking for something closer to home. Easier said than done, though.

      2. Artemesia*

        So agree with this. We always choose lodging based on commute and simply won’t do a long commute. My son and his wife both have hideous commutes in opposite directions and it is such a time and energy suck — they don’t have a better option.

    4. Mints*

      My first job out of college was like 1.5 hours on a good day but realistically almost 2 hours. At first I thought I would move closer to the job but the job turned out to be terrible so I just suffered until I got a new job. It was so so painful. My new job was a small raise (like a $1 an hour). But I was leaving for work later, getting to work earlier, getting home earlier, and still working more hours. I would get home all the time “I have so much time for activities! Movies, dinner, Netflix binge?”
      My new commute is literally a mile and I love it so much. I ended up starting a new job and moving the same week, which was a disaster, stress filled week. But it was super worth it for the commute I have now. I don’t think I’ll ever want to drive more than 20 minutes, or train / bus more than 30 again

    5. Caledonia*

      15 minute walk to my home/to work from the train station
      40 minute train journey each way (often delayed)
      inflexible working – unfortunately me request to change my working hours (15 mins each way) was denied as I get in 40 minutes before my start time (if train not delayed) and have to hang around 40 minutes the way home (because I literally just miss a train by leaving at 5 pm and the next one isn’t until 5.50)

      These things that make me long for the weekend.

    6. Leatherwings*

      I did an hour and ten minute commute (if everything was on time) for a year. 45 minutes or so on the train, then a 10 on either side. It was pretty miserable.

    7. Alton*

      For me, I think the time of day and mode of travel matter. I’m a night person, so I do better if I can get up later. And I like being able to read or listen to music on the bus instead of having to drive.

      But I don’t think I’d want to go beyond an hour if I can help it. That’s basically what I do now: 10-20 minutes to get to my bus stop and about 40 minutes on the bus. It’s not bad, but it can be demoralizing when I think about how it adds 2 hours that I’m not at home. But at least I can get some exercise (walking to bus) and reading done. I think I might get burned out if it were longer.

    8. paul*

      My longest was maybe 20 minutes.

      Right now I live 3 miles (almost to the dot) from my office and it’s fantastic. yesterday I went home and put up laundry on my lunch break. Earlier this week I ran home and played video games for about 30 minutes (had to allow commute time and some eat tiem).

      My dad though, used to have about a 1.5 hour each way commute when we were kids and itw as awful for all concerned.

    9. BRR*

      I thought you were writing about my commute until you got to the site visits. I factored in the expense and still came out quite a bit ahead but my physical health has really suffered. I would kill for my 30-45 min car commute back.

    10. BAS*

      I currently have a 45-60 minute commute, most of which is not on the freeway but large boulevards so lots of lights. It sucks. Realistically, a 30 minute commute is my max.

    11. MsCHX*

      I tend towards a 10/15 minute commute so my absolute max would be 30-40 minutes. I’m just not good at sitting in the car that long

    12. ADragon*

      My commute is about 45mins to an hour, which is considered on the long side for my city. The time is slightly longer than it needs to be because I bus rather than drive, but for me this is a relaxing/recreational time as a result. Games on my phone, reading, etc.
      I’ve casually complained about it, in the sense of ‘oh it’s a bit inconvenient – wish I could live closer!’ and had someone scoff at me and say he takes 2-3 hours *each* way. I was hard pressed not to respond ‘Why, you idiot!???’ – it is not like I work somewhere really exclusive or that it could ever be a jumping point to a better job. It’s a (inbound) call centre!

      And I guess in writing this out I sort of cover my opinion on it. A long commute may be worth it if you’re on the up-and-up job wise, but I for one wouldn’t waste so much of my time for a basic job as I and my former coworker have. THAT SAID the job market is not so difficult here that I just don’t have a choice if I want to live, so I’m sorry if that is your case.

      Can you shake things up? Drive to a different starting train station every now and then, see different sights? Visit those work related sites you need to go to on the way in or out or both? If you typically buy a meal on the way home, get it at a different stop each time and try the first place you see, or find out about free attractions on your path.

    13. Emac*

      I think mine was about 45 min to 1.5 hours when I was driving from north of Boston to downtown. I think that would be a lot longer now; it seems like traffic has increased an incredible amount in the last 10 years.

      Now mine is about 30-40 minutes, as long as I leave pretty early (~6:30). I have about a 10 minute bus ride to the subway which takes about 15-25 minutes, then about a 10 minute walk. But if I leave after 7 am, I risk the subway part of it possibly doubling (or more) as the line I’m on is ridiculously crowded and ALWAYS seems to have delays, so we end up sitting in each station for up to 5 minutes while the driver repeats “If you can’t fit on the train, step away from the door, the doors are closing” multiple times.

      Right now I”m lucky because my boss doesn’t care if I work 7 to 3 or 7:30 to 3:30 instead of a regular 9 to 5 schedule, and several other people do the same. But I’ve heard some whispers that make me think our new assistant executive director doesn’t really like this and might be putting a stop to these kinds of schedules :(

    14. tink*

      More than an hour/one-way of transit is basically my limit unless the position is really great. Driving an hour each way is bad enough, but then you factor in accidents, weather, wear and tear, etc. and it’s even more draining. Public transit isn’t quite the same–if I could take our light rail I’d consider slightly longer, but if it was a bus I wouldn’t want more than a half-hour commute, and even then I’d still balk because the bus routes are so generally inconsistent.

    15. babblemouth*

      I used to do one hour each way in the train. It was a direct train, and I didn’t mind too much. I relocated for a new job and found a place five minutes from the office, and it changed my life. I have so much more time to enjoy my house now, I would never go back.

  117. Pen and Pencil*

    A friend recently told me that a guy that she works with, who although he gives her tasks to do is to her supervisor or boss, took a picture of her talking to an outside contractor with his cell phone and sent it to her manager and boss saying that she wasn’t working. Has anyone experienced this? This is crazy right and borderline harassment? This picture of her now lives on his private cellphone.

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Dude’s on a power trip and if your friend is an otherwise fine employee, this will be nothing.

    2. Camellia*

      “This picture of her now lives on his private cellphone.” Eww. I would be inclined to point this out to HR for this reason, if I felt I could stay away from the ‘I’n not really concerned I’m just trying to prove I really was working” vibe.

  118. J*

    My question is about networking. I applied to a job in a very small (6 people) office within an enormous, state-wide organization. There are 2 people in virtually the same role at this office. One of them is a very close friend of my parents. This person has no knowledge of my professional work, and I really don’t even know him personally all that well. (The friendship with my parents happened when I was already an adult). He did come to my wedding though, and would recognize my name (I think). So far I have not reached out to him about the fact that I applied. Should I? Our relationship is not all that strong, and he may be recommending other people for the job. But maybe I’m missing an opportunity?

    1. sitting with sad salad*

      Yes! Reach out. Its a good opportunity to strengthen your relationship with him, as well as find out more about the company and field.

  119. KatieKatie*

    I’m starting to interview my first intern! Are there any questions I should be asking or shouldn’t be asking that are different from a regular interview?

  120. HRish Dude*

    After last week, I’m still hesitating on calling the EAP.

    Which, ironically, is one of the reasons I want to call them. Total lack of confidence.

  121. Faith*

    So, literally days after our open enrollment period ended, I found out that our insurance company is about to drop one of the largest medical services providers network in our city. This would mean that I would need to find a new OB and a new GP, my daughter would need to find a new pediatrician, and if I were to have a baby this year, I would not be able to use a single hospital in a 10 mile radius from my house. I felt like Adam Sandler’s character in wedding singer screaming “Once again, things that could have been brought to my attention yesterday!”, because I would have switched to my husband’s insurance that still keeps everyone in-network.

    1. E*

      I wonder if this would fall under a qualifying event somehow, and if your husband’s insurance would let you switch over? Can’t hurt to have him ask.

    2. MsCHX*

      Both of you should go talk to HR immediately!

      I’m assuming both plans begin 1/1/17. While all of my OE info is in, I know I could push through an enrollment if I really had to.

  122. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Not much of an update, but while typing my other comments about my wife now feeling better and going back off disability for her depression, she also texted me that she worked out in the morning and played with our foster cat! Anyway, I’m glad she’s making good lifestyle adjustments too.

    On a semi-related note, anyone want a tiny orange and white tabby? She hates to be picked up, but purrs like an outboard motor and loves to rub against you. :)

    1. You stink!*

      My ginger foster cat (age 5, in DC!) is a huge huge lovebug also but will only consent to snuggling on his own terms. If I approach him, he runs away. But then he comes looking for me and lies down on my arm and snuggles and asks for belly rubs. He is going to make some person/family very very happy.

  123. NarrowDoorways*

    Huge professional milestone for me this week!

    The CEO asked me to help out on a project a few weeks back and since then I ended up doing the whole thing. Not that I had the time or really wanted to, even. I just kept showing up to meetings prepared and everyone else in the meetings would admit, “oh, I haven’t done a, b, or c, but seeing as you have, you should just do d, e, and, f, too.” Thaaaanks.

    So somehow this whole project ended with the CEO saying, “Well, since you did everything, you should go present it to the clients!” I cannot fully explain how far outside my role this is. But it’s true I knew the project and no one else really did, so fine.

    But I did it! When to the client site, met with about 30 VERY high level executives of multi-billion dollar companies, and rocked the presentation. My CEO was there as well, though he stayed in the audience. Anyway, CEO was very pleased with me. A negative is that I’ll likely have to do more of these projects in the future, but a positive that I made one more case for that raise I asked for!

  124. Charlotte Collins*

    Today was my last day at OldJob! I start NewJob on Monday!

    Alison – Your book and blog really helped me out. It’s been a long process, but reading this blog and the comments helped keep me from being discouraged.

    On another note, for those of you who left a company that you had been at several years, I have a question. Even if it was really time to move on, and you were really ready for the change, did you find yourself feeling a little sad the last few days before you left? It’s kind of weird to me.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Well I got dumped by mine, but yeah. You miss people, and there is usually something you liked even if it sucked overall (or started sucking late in the game).

    2. SeekingBetter*

      I worked at one particular company for three years and resigned for a better opportunity and more pay. Yes, I did have the same feelings as you as feeling sad to leave the company. I never really moved on.

      I guess only time heals the soul.

    3. babblemouth*

      I felt very sad about leaving ExJob, mostly because of all the great people working there, and the feeling of something ending (I’m not good with things ending).
      That ebing said, knowing I had AmazingNewJob lined up made it better, and knowing I was also leaving terrible managers behind filled me with glee.

  125. Sled dog mama*

    I am so happy, I am literally walking out the door from my last day at toxic worksite. No more Grendel! EVER!

    Yesterday things with Grendel reached the point where if today had not been my last day I would have quit without notice.
    Background: I am employed by a company that provides contract services to various facilities. I am an employee, Grendel is an Independent Contractor who was basically hired because facility A required a credential I don’t have and is insourcing all design services so our contract is up in six weeks. Grendel is site supervisor (because of the credential) but I don’t report to him. I submitted my notice to company four weeks ago, giving five weeks notice because I knew they were going to have some difficulty covering my other site. Last Friday they called because they realized they will be short staffed over the holidays and asked me to continue covering site B for two more weeks, over the past 8 days I’ve talked to no less than four people about this and only got confirmation that yes they would accept the term I asked for in exchange (I’m staying full time only covering facility B and they are giving me a bonus for those two weeks). My final day at facility A was not going to and did not change from the day I first told Grendel.

    Grendel insists we have a meeting with all teapot design team members to review our monthly teapot machine quality assurance reports (I’ve worked with five other chief designers and none have ever done this much less weekly meetings to review progress on the testing and to review the final report). I was in the middle of reviewing my report for this month when Grendel interrupted me and asked if I knew yet when my final day with the company was. I replied that I did not but I believed it was not relevant to the completed report we were reviewing. Grendel said I “annoy” him by not giving a direct answer to the question, he knew we were reviewing QA and had asked a question.
    I replied that I believed my discussion with my employer about my employment did not affect him (because my final date at his facility was not changing) and was not any of his business.
    His response was “that’s SHIT! When I ask a question I expect a direct answer.”
    At that point I left the meeting because I knew that staying would lead to me losing my temper. I immediately called my supervisor who was less than surprised to hear about Grendel’s latest exploit. I then called HR and let them know that had been trying to work through this and treat Grendel with respect but he crossed a line and I felt it was more than I could deal with without some backup.
    It took nearly an hour to stop shaking I was so upset over this. I came in today prepared to let Grendel have it (in the most polite way possible) about his behavior toward me, he spent the entire day pretending nothing happened.
    So I didn’t handle it very well but boy am I glad to be done with him

  126. TotesMaGoats*

    I know it’s super late but I have good news to share. I got contacted on Linked In by a recruiter on Wednesday for a job that was posted on Monday that I was already considering applying for. She said that she’d seen all my experience and wanted to know if I was interested. So, we had a fantastic conversation today!!! There is only one box I couldn’t tick, being bilingual, but that was a wish list item and not a requirement. And the salary would be fantastic, along with a shorter commute. And at an institution that would be a great place to work. AHHHHH! Finally some forward progress.

    Happy Friday all! And my birthday is Sunday, so what a fantastic way to kick off my birthday season. (Yes, I have a season. You don’t?)

  127. MsChanandlerBong*

    Does anyone here have experience with grant writing? I have always had the problem of not knowing what to do with my life because I have TOO MANY interests. But I tried the old trick of thinking about what makes me happy, and it’s helping people. It brings me such joy to donate money or volunteer for a good cause. However, I have to work from home due to my health problems, so social work, full-time work for a nonprofit org, etc. are out of the question. I’m currently a freelance copywriter, so I already have writing skills. I was thinking about getting into grant writing, either part-time (I know nonprofits have limited budgets and would not be able to pay what I would charge a company for a white paper or a series of blog posts) or on a volunteer basis. There’s a grant writing course at the local college. Would it be worth it to take the course? Are there any books or online resources you would recommend?

    1. paul*

      I gotta be honest, I don’t think any of the non profits I regularly work with use external grant writers, contract or volunteer. We all prefer to keep it in house, at least around here.

    2. Cath in Canada*

      I learned on the job, by reading a huge number of successful and unsuccessful grants and reviewers’ comments, so I can’t really point you towards any specific resources. The course sounds potentially interesting though, if it’s affordable. Can you find any reviews of it anywhere? RateMyProfessor, maybe? Or find some people who’ve taken it in the past, maybe on LinkedIn?

    3. SophieChotek*

      I’ve only written a few grants (and my dad has to write/contribute to grants too) — for nonprofits and like paul wrote – all done “in house” by staff. But I do know there are some jobs that really are aimed more at grant-writing.
      You might get paid something by a non-profit if the got the grant. (I wrote two grants for a local non-profit; I got paid a little to work on the grant; the one they got, I got a nice paycheck from that — my role wasn’t specific per se, but it came out of the operational budget for the grant, so when they got it, I got money from that.)

    4. Observer*

      Two things:

      1. Grantwriting is a job that good organizations will allow you to work a lot of time at home, although some presence is necessary.

      2. A lot of organizations do use freelance grantwriters. Even organizations that have internal capacity will sometimes use grantwriters. Also, many organization don’t have the capacity to do significant amounts of this work internally.

  128. Spills*

    Any advice on how to go about making a play for an internal transfer? There have been some major changes on my team, to the point where it seems my role will be eliminated in the near future, as the function of our team is shifting significantly, and I would say approxmately 75-85% of my job functions are being eliminated. We are also in severe budget cuts. I have found a job in a similar role, but more in line with what I’d like to be doing, in a different, unrelated department in another office located in a nearby office, and I think I could be a good fit for it. There has been no mention of my role being eliminated yet, but I’d like to be proactive before potentially getting let go, as I like the company, but have had some struggles with this team and don’t see a future or career path if I remain here, even if I am not cut. Any thoughts on how to approach this?

    Additional information: our head boss was recently eliminated, and we have a new director in place. I don’t have any relationship with her, and have only spoken with her a handful of times since she started. I am afraid that if I begin this conversation with her, and she was *not* intending to cut me, I will seem like a team player not on board with the new changes, and I will be on the chopping block. I have a call scheduled with her for Monday to discuss my role amidst the changes, and will decide how to move forward from there (not mentioning this internal move initially until I can get a better read on the situation), but would like to start thinking ahead.

    1. babblemouth*

      If you don’t know the hiring manager well/ at all:
      Polish your CV and wrire your cover letter, send them to the appropriate person; then reach out to the manager of that position and let them know you’ve applied and how interesting you find the job. Afterwards, leave it at that.

      If you do know the hiring manager:
      Approch them in person and explain how you’ve seen the position, and how you’re planning ontrying for it because you’re the right fit for it and vice versa. Close with a simple “you’ll be seeing my CV soon” and don’t add any pressure beyond that.

      Basicaly, treat it like applying to an external job, with just a tiny bit more familiarity with the company.

  129. LizB*

    Good boss story: my boyfriend’s brother died very unexpectedly earlier this week (he was 22 and thriving, it was a traffic accident) and both my manager and boyfriend’s manager have been rockstars about letting us use PTO on short notice and miss mandatory meetings. The day we found out, I called my manager to let him know what happened and that I might be late or not make it in at all, and he was fine with that; I did try to head to work a little after my normal start time, but got overwhelmed on my way and turned around and went back home, and my manager was fine with a text saying that I needed to take the day. My boyfriend went into work for a couple of hours (he felt like he needed to be doing something), and when he needed to leave his bosses made it very clear that he can have as much time as he needs. We hear so many horror stories on here about managers who aren’t compassionate or companies with super strict policies that don’t allow managers to be compassionate, so it was really nice to have such good experiences at such a terrible time.

    1. Rincat*

      Thanks for sharing a good boss story, I agree it’s nice to hear them! And I am so sorry about your boyfriend’s brother. That is just terrible. My condolences to his family, and to you. I’m glad your bosses are being so compassionate about this.

  130. SophieChotek*

    Cover Letter Query:
    When you read a job description and there are like 10 job responsibilites and 10+ job qualification do you try to hit each one (1 sentence per job qualification) or do you just pick 3-4 and spend more time? [i.e. like: be detail oriented, be able to work independently, have experience supervising employees, willing to travel for weekends, experience with computer X programs, able to prioritize projects), etc.

    Thanks –

    1. Leatherwings*

      Definitely just pick a few and discuss them in-depth. Otherwise the cover letter will just read like a list which isn’t good.

    2. self employed*

      I would also pick the highest-value items on the list that I can highlight with my previous accomplishments.

    3. H.C.*

      I would focus on the qualifications/responsibilities that are more specific the job itself (knowledge of X software or experience in Y industry) over the more generic items (be detailed oriented, flexibility in work schedule). Though, if possible, you can even weave in some of the general qualities too (for example “I completed time-sensitive project using X software, delivering it on-time by committing longer hours in the final weeks leading up to deadline.”)

    4. katamia*

      I focus on the ones that I think are the most important and the ones that I can spin the best “story” of my previous jobs around. Usually there’s a large overlap between the two for the jobs I apply for. I also usually add a quick paragraph at the end for stuff that’s probably not important for the job itself but that they might be using to screen applicants, like “I have a BA in Underwater Chocolate Weaving from Teapot University” for a job that says they want someone with a degree.

  131. Haru*

    I posted a few weeks ago asking if it was unreasonable to ask my manager to have a holiday lunch instead of dinner. Thank you to people who replied saying it was okay to ask and offering suggestion! My manager was okay with changing time when I initially asked, but then the person planning the dinner wanted to keep it after work. Fortunately, other people are planning on skipping the holiday dinner because of vacation plans, so I feel comfortable missing it too. (In previous years, there were less people and no one skipped.)

  132. peachie*

    Eek, hope I’m not too late to ask!

    When is it ok to follow up about scheduling a phone interview?

    I applied for a dream job the Sunday before last and got an email a few days later saying that the hiring manager and the director of another department would like to do a phone interview with me. I responded later that day with a short thank you, very excited to speak with you soon, etc.

    Last Saturday, I noticed, with embarrassment, that I had addressed the email to both of them but had accidentally not CCd the new person. I sent a short email apologizing for the oversight and again saying I’m looking forward to speaking with them.

    I still haven’t heard anything, and I definitely feel it’s too early now to follow up again, but is there a rule of thumb on if/when following up is okay?

    1. NASA*

      I’d wait at least week. And at this time of year people may be out of the office and or attending work holiday celebrations as well (like me, all day yesterday!). It’s not you, it’s them :)

      Good luck and I hope you get the job!

  133. Lara*

    Hey all,

    I have kind of a weird question: what non-work activities do you recommend I do during down time at my job? I’m about 4 months into a new job and filling a brand new position. While we expect my work to ramp up over the next 2 years, there’s often just not a lot of work for me to do and I have multiple hours each day with time to kill. My bosses are fully aware of this and are completely fine with me doing non-work activities as long as I’m physically in the office in case something comes up. I have my own office, but try to keep the door open so people can stop by to ask questions as needed. I’m not used to having so much downtime and am going a little stir crazy. Any good websites/blogs to recommend? Is there anything else I can do quietly at my desk?

    Thanks!

    1. Temperance*

      Do you have a Kindle? The receptionists/security guards at my job are allowed to read on their downtime. My local library has Hoopla and Overdrive, which means that I get to read comics and books for free.

    2. Leatherwings*

      You could take some cheap/free online courses. I did this at my last job and taught myself some excel skills.

    4. katamia*

      There may not be much to document about your job yet, but you could start documenting things for if you’re out for a day or two or if you decide later on to change jobs. I know you don’t have much to do right now, but you could also experiment with processes to make your job more efficient for when your workload increases down the road.

    5. tink*

      I second reading. Maybe a puzzle book of some sort, if you like doing crosswords or sudoku? Free courses online can be really interesting, and a front desk job my mom once held didn’t mind her bringing in her crochet for any slow time.

    6. babblemouth*

      Knitting is a relaxing activity that can be picked up and dropped at a moment’s notice. It does make it very obvious you’re not working though, so if there is an image perception issue (like customers seeing you doing something and getting a negative perception), don’t do that. Otherwise, it’s pure fun! (if you like, you can listen to a podcast while doing so, it’s even nicer!)

  134. CDL*

    For the first time, I am having some serious issues with my boss and I’m curious if anyone has any advice on how to handle it. Apologies for the novel…

    My old boss was fantastic – super fair manager, helped develop her team professionally, and was overall accepting of feedback. If we didn’t like how a project or team strategy was playing out, we could tell her candidly. I felt like she was genuinely concerned about her employees being happy, and I was sad when she decided to leave our company for another opportunity.

    I had never had a boss leave a company and have a new boss come on. My new boss has been here for over a year, and it is not going well. Our team produces a variety of work, and she has not expressed any interest in learning about our work product or the processes necessary to produce our work. That would be fine, except she both micromanages and refuses to make decisions, essentially blocking us from completing our work. This creates a fire drill culture, because then every project turns into an emergency, and she regularly throws us under the bus in front of senior management. It is frustrating, to say the least.

    I have tried to get around this by managing up, but it doesn’t seem to work. On one project, I sent her emails asking her for decisions, then decided to meet with her in person, since her inbox is regularly at 1000+ unread emails. We met on this project a few times, and I sent her follow-up information that she requested so that she could make a decision. A week after our last meeting, someone else asked her about the project, and she scolded me, saying that she knew nothing about it. I showed her our email correspondence and reminded her of our meetings, and it was like talking to a wall.

    In spite of this, we continue to produce high-quality work and we often move forward without her, because we cannot miss deadlines for our clients. The work of the overall team is regularly recognized by others for being stellar, even though she is constantly telling us that we’re missing deadlines, producing bad work, angering other departments, etc. Some of us have asked for specific examples of her criticisms, and she is unable to give any. I honestly think her comments are projections- she is the only one who misses deadlines and other departments have expressed frustration with her. But it scares me, since many of us are up for promotions this year, and I feel she is building a case in her head against us by making these comments.

    We are all working at capacity, and many of us have expressed frustration/concern for the future of our team. Morale is at an all-time low and I am really concerned that we’re going to have a situation where the entire team will quit. It’s sad to see a team that was so happy a year ago feeling so beaten down now, and I’m not sure how to handle it. I don’t know if it’s worth talking to her, and I don’t know if going above or around her would be appropriate. Has anyone else had to deal with a situation like this before?

    1. Biff*

      Do you have a department that is lateral to you, e.g, you make teapot handles, and they make spouts? If so, I’d suggest talking to that manager from a point of ‘concern’ about your boss either being unwell or overwhelmed. Something like this:

      “Sally and I have discussed the new handle for StarLucks’s special Valentine Teapot in person twice, and I sent her followup information for the necessary clay reformulation but she chewed Fergus out for not giving her that information just the next day. I wanted to think it was a one-off, but just this week she chewed me out for not getting her information that I’d sent her days ago AND confirmed she’d received before taking my day off. I’m concerned that she might be experiencing an issue that is impacting her memory that isn’t yet obvious to her. What do you think we should do?”

      Then start recording each of these ‘memory issues’ or any inappropriate blow-ups.

      1. CDL*

        Thank you – that’s great advice. There is a team that is lateral to mine, and they have seen similar issues in working with my boss. The members of that team have spoken to their boss about it, so it wouldn’t come as a shock.

        I will start logging the memory lapses and blow-ups – they seem to be happening more frequently, so a record would be good!

        Thanks!

      2. Emac*

        “I’m concerned that she might be experiencing an issue that is impacting her memory that isn’t yet obvious to her.”

        I don’t think suggesting there’s something impacting her memory is a good idea; it seems too personal. I’d say just leave it at asking for advice on how to handle it.

    2. animaniactoo*

      I would absolutely go above her. I think it’s pretty clear there is not much that you can say that she will listen to, and you have an entire team that’s unhappy.

      Having bungled the approach on this kind of thing once before, I’d approach it like this: “I have some concerns about Jane, and I’ve tried different routes to making this work but nothing I’ve tried is improving the situation. Specifically because decisions aren’t being made until very late in the process about most projects, it’s creating an issue where every project becomes an emergency. From a morale standpoint, it’s crushing and I’m concerned that people are going to start leaving.”

      I wouldn’t bring up getting thrown under the bus, but I would bring up that attempts to work with her by e-mail haven’t worked because she appears not to have seen or remembered the e-mails, and attempts to meet with her personally to review projects haven’t worked either.

      The strongest point you have in your quiver is that your team is a known quantity – she’s the new thing that’s been added. If something is now not working that was working before, AND you’re showing willingness to try to work differently to adapt to her, then you’ve got a much stronger case that the problem is her. And that it needs to be addressed by somebody above her, because trying to address it from below isn’t working.

      1. CDL*

        Thank you – this is really helpful. I should’ve mentioned that I’ve talked with her before about my own professional development goals and was told that they were totally achievable…only to have her say later that we never spoke about it and that everything I was telling her (for the second time) was brand new information. So I do think that going above her is our best shot at this point, because she simply doesn’t listen.

        One of my colleagues and I have discussed it, and as the most senior people on our team (and the highest performers), we both think it would make sense for us to talk to someone above her. Now I’ll just have to figure out exactly what to say (…I may just steal your wording, word for word) and maybe come to the table with a solution or two.

        1. animaniactoo*

          fwiw, armchair diagnosis and all that, this sounds like somebody who is having memory problems and is covering and frightened. I would be willing to bet that she genuinely believes that she hasn’t had the conversation on some of those (or is afraid she has and can’t remember it) and that’s the reason for her blow-ups and pushback. Similarly, not reading her e-mail and not learning about the work products or production processes could be due to not being able to deal with trying to remember more stuff than what she already has a slippery grasp on. Sort of like she’s reached her maximum capacity and if she learns one more thing, what she already knows will fall out. She can’t make decisions because she can’t remember what she needs to factor in or what she’s previously decided (and therefore would be tripped up by contradicting herself).

          So, while I wouldn’t approach from that angle, I would definitely mention that she seems to be having significant memory issues about the things you have talked about/e-mailed about. If you have a couple of concrete examples, and an average of how often it seems to you to be happening – noting that this is your perspective and you could be wrong about it – that would be a good way to raise it.

          1. CDL*

            I definitely think there’s truth in your diagnosis! I also think that during the interview process, nobody communicated to her the actual demands placed on our team. I’ve worked at other firms where the stress/intensity ebbed and flowed – here, it is constant. After awhile, I guess we all got used to it, and I just don’t think this environment is working for her. I do think she is a very nice person, so this makes me sad.

  135. No Job For You!*

    Last week, I was informed that the position that was (supposedly) created specifically for me was filled by a transfer. I wrote the job description, came up with the appropriate title and the business case. But the group had a re-org, and they placed someone whose job had been eliminated into the role. It would have meant a small raise and title change for me.

    The hiring manager basically told me not to stress about it, and that the position would probably open up again soon!

    I was OK with it when I found out, mostly due to Alison’s wisdom about it not being “your” job until you have an offer in hand. But I’ve been feeling rather icky about it this week. Any advice for dealing with it in the short term?

    In the long term, I am interviewing, but it’s taking time to find the right fit, especially this time of year, and I don’t want to sound bitter in interviews, either.

    1. AnonyMeow*

      Aw, that sucks. I don’t have any good tip, but sympathies your way!

      If you explain the situation in a neutral way in an interview, though, I think most people will understand why you want to leave, and also possibly more importantly, that you were doing well enough in your position for your company to let you design a step-up position for you. :)

  136. Amber Rose*

    Every time my boss calls into the office he makes some comment about how quiet I am on the phone and how he can hardly hear me, and he says other people have told him this too.

    90% of the people who call (and I know, because i’m really the only one who answers the phone) have no trouble hearing me. I feel like the people who do, are the ones who just really need to turn up the volume on their friggin cell phones. Mostly the sales guys, honestly. Thing is, I know I have both a quiet voice and an invisible prescence, which is why years ago I took lessons on broadcasting my voice properly. This hasn’t been an issue in years and now suddenly it’s a problem again somehow.

    It’s not something i’m in trouble about, but it’s starting to grate on me hearing that ever. single. time. he calls. Also during every employee review. And I have no idea what to do about it.

    1. LCL*

      Tell the boss to replace your company phone, and check the connections. Both phone and connection (if it’s hardwired) can fail over time.

      1. Amber Rose*

        We tried that a while ago. It made no difference. I tend to answer on whatever phone i’m nearest, which isn’t always the one at my desk, anyway.

        1. LCL*

          Sounds like boss is in denial and needs his hearing and his phone checked. I can’t think of any way to make that happen. At my job I could put in a quiet word to the comm guys to check his phone.

    2. Gene*

      Since it’s every time, when you see it’s him on caller ID, answer at a volume that feels way too loud to you. Or let it ring until someone else answers.

    3. Colette*

      How do you know they have no trouble hearing you? Is it possible they’re struggling but not complaining? Are they random callers, or colleagues you can ask?

      I mean, it’s possible that you boss is the one with the issue, but it’s still a problem that you need to act on – and lack of complaining does not mean everything is fine.

    4. Anono-me*

      Experiment with a few trusted friends to see if they can hear you on various office phones.

      Speak louder than normal to your boss and others that complain or seem to have difficulty hearing you.

      Consider taking a refresher course on voice. You may have accidentally reverted to old habits or your voice may have gradually changed and new techniques are needed.

  137. Amy M in HR*

    Sooooo late in the game today!
    TN Visas for Canadian citizens – anyone dealt with one? We are a US employer who has not had to deal with this yet, just wondering if it is really as easy as it appears for the employee to get.

    1. CAA*

      Yes, it really is easy. The candidate needs a written offer letter from you for one of the qualifying jobs that is listed in the NAFTA law. They take the letter and their proof of Canadian citizenship, education, work history, etc, to an airport or border crossing with US immigration officials and the visa is issued there.

  138. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I should have posted this earlier but hopefully people will still see it:

    I have a TON of updates from letter-writers to post this month. So many that I need to either post multiple updates a day, or combine a lot more of them into multi-update posts (like 5 updates in one post). My instinct is to combine them rather than doing like six separate posts a day (both because I think it’s easier for people and because I think it keeps the site looking neater, especially for newcomers who don’t realize this is just a December thing). Agree/disagree?

    2. paul*

      I’ve become an update junky; maybe 2 post with 4-5 updates? And break out major ones as needed (like the one about the airport pickup one, hooooh boy!)

    3. Joanna*

      I actually don’t mind them as separate posts. That way when you’re skimming through articles in feedly or similar it’s more obvious that there’s an update to one you wanted to hear about.

    5. animaniactoo*

      If the updates are truly short, I’d rather have several together.

      Alternatively – since you’ve gotten so many updates, how about letting some of the non-time-sensitive ones carry over into January?

    7. Ultraviolet*

      I don’t have a strong preference, but when there are several updates in one post I like it when the post title mentions what some of the updates are about. Like the titles to your daily short answer posts. Otherwise I’m less likely to read them for some reason.

    8. a different Vicki*

      Maybe smaller combo posts, three updates per post and do a couple a day, if that’s not more work than either of the other options?

    9. Jean aka the Recovering Packrat*

      To help orient any “newcomers who don’t realize this is just a December thing” you might want to add a tag line explaining that it’s AAM custom to share updates from letter-writers at the end of the calendar year.

      I have no preference as to whether you post updates by themselves or in small groups, unless it’s not possible for the AAM search function to locate an update within a multiple-update post. (This is probably not a problem because I’ve never heard anyone complain about not being able to find any other individual topic within a multiple-update post.)

      I do prefer happy updates over sad ones, but life doesn’t always guarantee happy-ever-after circumstances. Almost all of the updates show people growing and adapting, which is good even if it doesn’t result in rainbows and unicorns.

    10. chickabiddy*

      I like updates and I like multi-posts, but mostly I like what you do and think you should do whatever makes it easier for you.

    11. Manda*

      That’s great as I love the updates and I don’t mind how they are delivered; I’m sure it’ll be obvious to you if there’s one that’d be best put out on its own.

  139. Joanna*

    I work in a fairly average kinda corporate office. One of my coworkers (whom I really like and mostly get along with) has aspirations of being a motivational speaker. I think it’s great that she’s found something she’s passionate about and that is meant to help others. Sometimes she practices at staff meetings which I can deal with. However, she’s been pushing the idea that we should all take turns to give a short motivational message to the team. That I can’t deal with. I work hard and am generally fairly self-motivated, but having to give a motivational speech feels fake and unpleasant. How to I graciously get out of this or if I have to do it, what on earth could I say?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I’d probably approach her privately and say something along the lines of “I think it’s great that you like giving motivational speeches, but that really isn’t really my thing. I like hearing yours, but the idea of giving one of my own makes me really uncomfortable.”

      See how she responds. She may just not realize that the thing she’s passionate about is something that others wouldn’t enjoy. People who get really caught up in things don’t always remember not everyone is in love with that thing.

      1. Artemesia*

        Has anyone ever been motivated by a motivational speaker? This whole industry has me mystified. when I taught undergrads I was always amused at the number of 21 year olds with virtually no life experience whose goal was to be a business consultant or motivational speaker — I think it is code for ‘not work actually.’ I have been forced to listen to them countless times in my career, and not a one of them offered anything that improved morale or productivity. Occasionally consultant who gave speeches on actual substantive matters that concerned us were useful.

  140. AnonyMeow*

    What’s the best way to handle comments like “our efforts in area X can be improved” from someone who is above you in the organizational structure/culture but who is neither your boss nor an expert in area X? (Unfortunately, area X is my area, which a lot of uninformed people think they can do in their sleep.)

    I take work orders from this person in an unrelated area A, but not in area X, but he seems rather eager to point out things that could be done better in area X. I have been giving him an explanation of why something is not the way he thinks should be every time he comments on area X, but it’s getting tiring, and I need a better way to politely shut him down…

    1. Jenbug*

      Is he making concrete suggestions about improvements like “instead of painting the spouts and handles first, we should paint them last” or is he just saying “we need to paint teapots faster”?

      If the latter, I would say “Do you have any suggestions on how we can improve that process?”

      If the first, are they suggestions of things you have already tried to implement and know won’t work? And are you the person who actually has the authority to implement changes? If you are, you’re probably going to have to keep explaining why X won’t work. If you’ve explained it already, preface with “As I mentioned before, we tried that and it didn’t work”. If you’re not the person who can authorize those changes, say “you should discuss that with Fergus” (where Fergus is the person who does have that authority.

      Basically, treat him like a toddler and keep redirecting.

  141. Anxa*

    So before Thanksgiving I grabbed a retail application while shopping for my new apartment. I didn’t hear anything back until well after Black Friday. I interviewed mid week, expecting to hear back about a possible orientation as soon as my references cleared.

    A week goes by of me kind of dawdling around because I didn’t know when or if I’d be called in. I stay at home and never go anywhere, just in case. I know I’ll need to shower fast and find a bus on perhaps short-notice.

    Then today I gave up. My boyfriend never got train tickets home, in part because my job situation was up in the air, so he’ll be taking the car for Christmas. Now I definitely can’t go home for Christmas if I take the job. There’s just no way to make the out-of-state travel happen with retail hours on mass transit. Plus, now I’d have to take lots of taxis home from work to have Christmas by myself. My family with kind of understand, but only a little bit. And then I get a call that they can’t contact my reference. Now it’s back on the table.

    I don’t know what’s wrong with me, but I almost can’t pick up the phone. I’m so tempted to just spend the holiday with family and focus on jobs that are a better match. And I started making great progress today, when I had finally written off that job as having fallen through. But, money. I mean money’s not tight now, for the first time in a long time, but I have no retirement savings and my partner is buried in student loan debt.

    And when am I gonna have a chance to submit another paper application? I’ve never, ever gotten a call back from an online application, and I know how rare it is to find paper applications and resume/cover letter jobs for me.

    Ugh, I had just given myself a good excuse to focus on the long-term and family and was feeling positive, and now I have this job possibility. Which I should be grateful for, but am somehow really bummed about.

    I don’t really have any questions, just need to vent.

    1. Temperance*

      You sound very stressed. I’m really, really sorry.

      Can your boyfriend get train tickets now? Can his family help, since he’s visiting them?

      1. Anxa*

        I am stressed. They would help by picking him up if he goes by bus instead of train (it’s a 1.5 hour drive each way to the nearest bus station). He works really hard and is supporting us and it’s his own car and he already took the bus/train last time so I could have the car since I had put applications in, just in case. I really want him to be able to just use his own car so I can deal with a short 6 hour drive and not a 12 hour bus ride.

        I think I’m a little extra stressed because this is the last year my immediate family with have its current dynamics. There’s some major changes coming down the line and I’m not even sure there will be a next Christmas. I know it seems weird to sacrifice a job for a family gathering when that family is kind of imploding, but it’s how I feel. But I’m also hesitant to skip the holiday season for a minimum-ish wage job that may not even have many hours scheduled for me (and I can’t just ask, because I wouldn’t trust the answer). A previous glassdoor review for this location cited going weeks without being on the schedule. A few shifts a month is not worth it for me.

        I decided I would call the manager back tomorrow, let him know my boss will not be in touch with him over the weekend, and hope he doesn’t try to tell me that I can just start. I didn’t expect to start so late in the season. I think I’m going to try to enjoy my day with my boyfriend tomorrow. He’s been so incredibly patient with my job search and despite everything doesn’t want me to stuck in a bad job.

        Thanks for the response, I somehow feel more clear-headed

  142. Teacher's wife*

    Going anon to pose a question for my husband. He’s a teacher who took five years off when our kids were born, then worked in an unrelated industry for a few years. He was back in his own class this fall and it’s been a disaster, not because he’s a bad teacher, but because he was depressed and didn’t realize it right away. It hit a low in early October, he got a diagnosis, some medication and started seeing a counselor. Things looked better, things were going better at school and then, around Thanksgiving, apparently the medicine stopped working (we aren’t really sure what’s going on, but he sees his doctor tomorrow to try to address it) and he started having serious anxiety issues again.
    His principal approached him yesterday and said students and parents were worried about my husband’s health, and that if my husband wants to quit, the school won’t ask the state to revoke his teaching license (apparently that’s a thing that can happen if a teacher breaches a contract and leaves early). My husband really, really wants to quit at the end of the semester. I’m worried that other districts will learn he quit mid-year and pass on hiring him in the future. (We’re in a rural area, administrators in other districts all know each other.)
    What has been your experience in explaining health issues in interviews? Especially mental health issues? He has wanted to get back into teaching for years and we were so excited about this job and it has been the worst four months of our lives. And it’s just hard to talk to people about, because of the stigma with mental health stuff, plus a desire to keep a good reputation in the district in which we live (which is where he ultimately would like to teach someday — it’s not where he’s working now).

    1. Biff*

      Hrm, just some thoughts that may or may not be so good.

      1. Can he get a letter of recommendation from his current supervisor? One of these will go a long way in explaining away an absence.

      2. Could he arrange a leave of absence instead of quitting?

      3. If neither one nor two, could he look into getting a job with an underprivledged district in the future? They are easier jobs to get , but you may need to move.

      4. Is he teaching the wrong grade? Maybe a small adjustment would make a huge difference.

      1. Teacher's wife*

        I’ll have him check about the recommendation. But you’re right about being in the wrong grade. He previously taught middle school and is working with older kids this year. It’s been a rough switch.

        1. Artemesia*

          I thought if someone could teach middle school they could do anything — always seemed like the hardest possible age. Teaching is really hard and it is really relentless when you are teaching high school and have one class after another with almost no time to catch your breath of even go to the bathroom. If you are already struggling it can be crushing.

          If at all possible see if your husband can get a leave of absence so he can return in the fall. If that is not possible then negotiate the reference. There are no guarantees here but thinking through a ‘health leave’ response to future questions as well as being somewhat confident his supervisor will give him a decent (obviously it won’t be glowing) reference may reduce the anxiety. A second thing for him to sort out is whether this is the work he actually wants to be doing.

          Hope his therapist can find the right meds and routines to help him through the process.

    2. Gene*

      “apparently the medicine stopped working ”

      Check with the pharmacy and see if they started giving him a generic, or changed generic suppliers for his drug. My wife had a similar problem with a generic substitute for her depression meds, the brand name and one generic version worked; but another generic brand didn’t. We ended up having to eat the cost of the higher copay for “brand name only” because there was no telling which generic the pharmacy would have on hand.

      1. Biff*

        Totally this! I didn’t even think of this. However, some folks also react incredibly differently to extremely similar medications. I do great on Valium. I do so very poorly on Ativan. They are a few chemical bonds of difference.

      2. Teacher's wife*

        He’s going to talk with the doctor tomorrow. There had been a dosage adjustment (up) and we wondered if that made a difference. He’s very early in treatment and had never been on antidepressants until October, so it’s all still getting adjusted.
        If he were in a regular job, he’d also just take a sick day when things are really bad, but the district doesn’t really have subs (rural area, the pay for subs is terrible and the state now requires subs have a full-fledged teaching license), so his bosses give him a hard time about that, too.

        1. animaniactoo*

          fwiw: Until he’s stable, he should not try for another teaching job at all. And that really might mean a year or two.

          It will really hurt both him and the students for him to do it. His best shot at being able to get and hold another teaching job is to start applying again after he can demonstrate that he’s achieved stability with his meds and his coping skills. At that point, he’ll look much stronger to be able to say “It’s not a risk for the kids to have me in this position, there was an issue and I did the work that needed to be done to handle it. I have been stable for X period now, and have X arrangements setup to keep me stable.”

          1. Teacher's wife*

            Good points. Thanks. What he wants, for now at least, is to go back to being a classroom aide, a job he held for more than a year while getting his license converted to the state we’re in now.

    3. Jean aka the Recovering Packrat*

      This sounds so unhappy. I know it’s hard to talk to people about mental health stuff. It’s not fair and it’s not right, but some people still have outdated attitudes.

      I’m wondering who you could enlist as an advocate. Are state or local laws on your side (by explicitly banning workplace discrimination against mental health care consumers)? Is your husband in a teachers’ union–and if so, are there any advocates he can contact? Are any of your elected officials outspoken supporters of people with mental health challenges (or, even better, people who have been open about their own mental health ups and downs)? Is there a branch of NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness, www [dot] nami [dot] org) or a similarly focused advocacy organization near you, or at least in your same state or geographic region? I’m hoping that such an organization would offer assistance, referrals, and/or connections to other people who have faced similar depression-and-workplace challenges.

      Good luck to both of you. Depression is hard, whether it’s your own or that of your spouse or other close loved one.

    4. Temperance*

      Are you husbands mental health issues impacting his ability to teach? It sounds like they might be. I don’t think your husband should quit unless he’s okay with the fact that it might be near impossible to teach in your area again … although, by that token, if his mental issues are impacting his work as a teacher, that may also be a problem.

      I would advise him to never, ever mention having mental health issues as a teacher. At an interview, you’re selling yourself. The standards for teachers are higher than in other fields.

      1. Artemesia*

        This sounds right to me — resigned for health issues rather than mental health issues. Teaching tends to be over supplied most places and jobs can be hard to come by and there is a lot of concern about mental health issues and teachers — and the job itself is pretty tough if you have those issues.

  143. Bookwyrm*

    So this has been a surprisingly good week. It started with me winning one of the “grand prizes” in a work contest, and ended with being told that I’ve been shortlisted for a position I’m applying for and the interview is next week.

    I’m a bit nervous about the interview. It’s going to be a panel interview, which I haven’t had since a pretty awful one in high school (first job interview ever, greeted by three people in suits, definitely was not prepared for that). One of the panelists is my current manager, but I don’t know the other two at all. I know I’m qualified for the position, and I’m pretty sure I can handle the interview, but I’m not going to be able to calm down about it until it’s over.

    1. Jules the First*

      Yay for surprisingly good weeks – do lots of breathing and lots of preparing and you’ll be absolutely fine for the interview!

    2. Champagne_Dreams*

      I actually really like panel interviews, because to me 4 people sitting around a conference table feels less “high pressure interview” and more “business meeting”. Which I’ve done about a thousand times. So it feels much more comfortable and puts me in a more equal kind of headspace.

  144. F yeah Employed!*

    I got a job!!!! It’s my first ever, full time position in my field and I owe it all too the advice on AAM and the support of my amazing manager at my current temp position. Thank you so much for what you do, and to all the amazing commenters – you guys rock!

  145. Career Frustration*

    I’ve been with my current employer 16 years and not having much luck with promoting. I am a hard worker, good reputation, but the ability to advance here is hard. I have 30 years of experience and currently in school for my degree. Favorites, friends, family and preferential treatment get in the way. If they leave it’s due to retirement or death. I make good money, but advancement/growth is still very important to me. When looking outside, the pay isn’t as good as here. I don’t hear from the one’s that do pay well. I can’t resign myself to stay where I am at and just don’t know what to do. I am a senior secretary trying to become an executive assistant. Has anyone ever ended up here and what did you do? Were you able to reach your career goal? Would love some advice because I am feeling really down right now.

    1. Jules the First*

      I can’t speak to your situation specifically, but generally speaking, the transition from senior secretary to executive assistant can be a tough one – you’re going from being general support to a role where you need to be much more embedded in everything your boss does. Often people who are struggling to take that step are doing a stellar job at the individual pieces of the senior secreatry role but aren’t showing the strategic altitude and analytical thinking skills that they’d need to demonstrate in order to be a successful EA. And because a good EA is so critical to a lot of high-powered execs, it tends to be one of those jobs where no one will hire you until you can already prove you can do the job.

      You might have more success looking for an EA role in an org where the person you are supporting has more than one EA (though with 30 years of experience, that might be a hard sell), or for a role where you are senior secretary but working alongside an EA to support the same person (which will give you a closer view of what skills you might be missing), or you could look for an EA role supporting an exec who is within a couple of years of retiring, because they will have both the skills and the time to teach you anything you don’t already have from the EA skill set.

  146. The Moops*

    Need some advice on long commute versus work experience gap:

    I am a grad student working towards career as a professor. Long story short: I don’t have a permanent TA appointment but have been teaching courses (related to my field) when an extra person is needed. I wasn’t able to pick up any courses for this past semester. Now I have an opportunity to teach a class but not in my town. Drive is doable but long; pay is enough to justify the commute financially. My main concern is that it will wear me out, time wise (have a few big requirements to do next semester in order to be ABD).

    I’m also thinking about the gap on my CV if I don’t do this. I’ll need to do some travel for dissertation research within the next year so the earliest I’ll be on the job market for a permanent position is 2018. This would leave a gap of 12-18 months on my CV.

    Those of you in academia, what are your thoughts? How long is too long of a gap?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      You won’t have a gap on your CV at all; you should put “Dissertation research, 2017-2018.” It IS work, related to your field and degree.

      Don’t take the teaching role if you feel that it would wear you down too much… unless you need the money.

    2. SophieChotek*

      If you didn’t have any teaching experience I would say take it anyway, but since you do have teaching experience on your CV I would say let it go.
      It’s a fine balance between your CV needing current things and having balance in your life
      Unless for some reason you could see this leading to FT work; I know some people (very few) who did get FT jobs in academic as ABD…

      1. The Moops*

        Thanks, everyone!

        It’s common in my field and in my geographical area for ABDs to do a lot of adjunct work while writing the dissertation. And short-term filler positions (sabbatical subs and visiting lecturer) come up regularly because there are quite a few unis and colleges within driving distance. So, I think I’m feeling some pressure to be teaching as much as possible.

        1. Alice*

          I don’t know – it might be that doing lots of adjunct work could get you (and them) pigeonholed as teachers, not researchers. If you don’t NEED that money, and you already have the bare minimum of reaching experience, it might be good to focus on research and publishing. That’s based on the context of research universities, though; if you have different goals maybe this is bad advice. Good luck!

    4. grad student*

      Have you talked to your advisor about this? This expectation–that you have to teach every semester for your CV–seems really off to me. By the time you defend, you should have some teaching experience (preferably solo teaching at least once in addition to TAships), but it seems you already do and will have this, so your research is more likely to be the most important factor. Are you applying to dissertation research/dissertation completion fellowships, too? These pay better than additional adjuncting and will be a much bigger CV boost.

    5. Artemesia*

      When you are in grad school there is no gab in your CV — you are in grad school and next year you will be in grad school doing your dissertation research. This is a re-set button. If you have already been doing TA work and have some experience and one hopes some course evaluations that are great or directing professors who are willing to sing your praises as a teacher then I don’t think doing another class buys you anything. If you don’t have course evaluations, do be thinking about ways to document your teaching excellence and nailing down references there.

      You have ‘done that’ and now you need to focus on your research and completing the degree. A fine dissertation is more important than one more class that is similar to your previous experience when it is at the expense of your energy and focus.

      You need to keep your eye on the ball. If you want a good tenure track position or even a so so tenure track position then your research is important — put your energy into the research and into doing some professional presentations of your work and if possible into a publication from your work (you can do this before the dissertation is completed if you have the data in hand.) This will give you more of a hiring edge than one more class (once you have already established a record of teaching experience.)

  147. How candid should you be with a recruiter ??*

    So I had a phone interview today. It was my 3rd interview with a company. It felt off to me and the interviewer expressed that the role may be difficult for me because of lack of experience in this field. If I make it to the next step there would be another interview and then background / employment checks. I have been working with an internal recruiter should I tell him that I feel like the interview didn’t go very well. Or just let it go. The recruiter is asking for feedback. I am really interested in the role and would really like to at least be considered for the final interview. Any advice would be appreciated.

    1. babblemouth*

      How did the rest of the process feel? Is this one interview an outlier, or have you had other weird feelings?

  148. Lemon Zinger*

    Late to the party, but I wanted to share an update about Jane, my ignorant and immature coworker.

    I think our manager spoke privately with her sometime in the last few weeks because she’s been behaving better at work. Unfortunately her personality remains the same, and she occasionally says tone-deaf/inappropriate things, often related to the population we work with, despite clearly having their best interests at heart. The good thing is, she really is good at most aspects of the job, so I don’t feel like I need to supervise her anymore.

    Yesterday I noticed she was doing nothing at her desk while we were on a deadline. I gave her the benefit of the doubt and asked what she was “working” on. When she sighed and said “Oh, nothing,” I was a bit sharp with her and told her to get on task. Today she apologized and said she didn’t realize that she was supposed to be working on the project at that time (?).

    One of our coworkers recently came out to me as transgender (it’s not a secret, he just doesn’t discuss it openly), and I shudder to think what Jane would say if/when she finds out. I really think she would say something offensive. I’m hopeful that she will become more accepting and open-minded as she continues in this role.

    In other news, my first overnight business trip was a huge success! I had a wonderful time but it was exhausting to work two straight 11-hour days. I also discovered that hotel stays are not as fun without my SO. While I’m grateful to my employer for the opportunity, I don’t think overnight travel is for me. It’s not part of my role whatsoever, so I don’t anticipate it happening again soon, if at all.

    1. Biff*

      It is not much like me to say this, but Jane strikes me as being either a bit neuro-atypical, or maybe just not very bright. She made need to be told that she can have ‘initiative’ when she has downtime.

  149. Just Curious*

    Doing an experiment in that it’s 8:07 PM in my timezone on a Friday night and I’m more than a little tipsy (safely at home with a rommate to look after me) because my job made me cry three days out of the last five work days, and the only reason it isn’t four is because today, Friday, went bad side up just like I predicted it would so I kept my expectations low and thus didn’t cry.

    How is everyone else feeling tonight?

  150. Zona the Great*

    I’ve always wondered what managers’ experiences have been in regards to being “put in one’s place”, for lack of a better phrase, by one’s employee? The reason I ask is I have had a couple of experiences so bad that I’ve had to tell a manager s/he is wildly out of line or owes me an apology. What goes through a manager’s mind after? Has anyone any experience as the manager on this?

    1. response*

      I don’t know what was in my manger’s mind but it certainly had no effect on me. I was called into his office and yelled at about something a different employee did. I told him to stop yelling at me, I had nothing to do with the problem at hand (didn’t do it, didn’t tell anyone else to) and if he had just answered my questions before the store opened it would never have happened. He wasn’t there that long. Don’t know if he went to bigger and better or just went but he wasn’t there that long. And that was the last time I worked retail.

    2. Brigitha*

      Haven’t been told off by an employee, but I’ve had different responses from different managers when I’ve … suggested a correction. Some respond as well as they can and take it in stride, and some lash back. If a manager is generally loud an opinionated and careless about what they say, I’d probably expect a backlash.

      I’ve never requested an apology though. Only made it clear that repeating the behavior would mean a bad result or damaged relationship. The only instance I could conceive of asking for an apology is if I was personally insulted and that hasn’t happened.

    3. babblemouth*

      From an employee perspective, I’ve had to do something like this just once, years ago. A work situation ran out of my and everyone else’s control, and I was essentially thrown under the bus. When the dust had settled, I asked my manager to have a chat, and told him how completely betrayed I felt. He started crying on me about how bad he felt about how he managed the situation. So I felt even worse, and got nothing concrete in terms of how to avoid that again.

  151. Brigitha*

    Just had a check-in meeting with boss at my request. I just wanted to lay out a 2-step plan to make sure we stay on the same page since she doesn’t like using online tools (weekly check-ins plus a running task list that I keep online but print out for her).

    Turned into an hour long conversation about how we work together. I learned that she finds it really hard to abide by the boundary I enforced about not psychoanalyzing me or attributing a mistake to a personality flaw. She says she wants to be a “wholistic mentor” rather than a boss with a strictly professional relationship.

    Sigh. I look forward to the day I work for myself.

      1. Brigitha*

        In a very direct but professional email about a month ago. To which she actually responded pretty well. I was happy she’d taken what I said to heart and thought we were trucking along just fine. Didn’t occur to me that she was still stewing over it.

        1. babblemouth*

          Brining up boundaries one time just a month ago is unfortunately not enough to make it through the head of the worst offenders. You’ll have to turn a bit into a broken record.
          “Fernanda, as I mentioned last month, I will welcome your professional feedback, but I am keeping my personal issues to myself.”
          “I know you like to search for root causes in personal areas Fernanda, but I do not appreciate you encroaching on my personal life. Stop now.”
          “My personal issues do not belong at work, and I have kept there strictly at home. It doesn’t not help when you find the need to bring them up professionally.”
          “This topic is off the table for you as my manager.”

          A reasonable manager would have stopped a long time ago, but you don’t have a reasonable manager. So, broken record.

  152. Sunshine Brite*

    Late to the game, but excited at the prospect of finding a position to mix it up a bit. My job is flexible but highly systemic. To be expected in the role but I’ve been considering lateral moves or supervisory ones for awhile, maybe it’s time.

  153. Overeducated*

    Do you ever think of the ones that got away? After a long job search, I am in a new position that is not really what I hoped it would be – the organizational structure holds me back from doing the kinds of projects I thought they brought me on to do – and that is also grant funded so not permanent. I find myself reminded, fairly often, of several jobs I interviewed for that actually would have given me more autonomy and opportunity to take on those projects, but didn’t work out (in one case because I turned it down, in the others because I made it to final interviews and got rejected).

    It’s like I wanted to work at a teapot art center to bring in local community members to paint their own, but as “teapot community outreach specialist,” I wound up writing press releases summarizing internal reports by the association of teapot art centers. (Analogies are hard!) So now I am wishing I had gotten one of the jobs at an actual community center or teapot art training program instead.

    It’s all in the past now so I know I have to get over it, but easier said than done.

    1. kw10*

      This is 100% normal – probably everyone thinks about the ones that got away! I still think about one job I was a finalist for years ago but didn’t get the offer. What’s worse is that the person hired turned out to be an acquaintance of mine, so I got to watch on LinkedIn as her career progressed exactly as I had hoped mine would. I still think of that job with some bitterness clearly!! (Even though now I’m in a place where I like my job& career progression)

    2. Artemesia*

      My husband and I each have a ‘job that got away’ that turned out to be a disaster of Biblical proportions for the person who took the job. Mine, that I turned down, was taken by an acquaintance who discovered that the director of the organization had his hand in the till, had alienated the entire community population that the project was to work with and worse. He kept his nose down until he could escape. I would have moved my whole family across country uprooting my husband from his job and into that disaster. His was a great job that was eliminated 6 weeks after the guy who accepted it took it.

      You only know the bad stuff in the job you took, not in the job you didn’t take. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and sometime it rains.

  154. babblemouth*

    A colleague has told me in confidence that her manager is being absolutely horrible to her. Things like taking her in a room and spend half an hour berating her and telling her how disappointed she (manager) is that she (colleague) hasn’t been working hard even though colleague was out with a serious back injury. Plenty of other stuff but I don’t want to give too many details in a public forum.
    We have different managers, and our roles dont intersect much, and I’m looking for something I can do to support her – and I can’t think of anything besides patiently listening to her. Any ideas?
    (For what it’s worth, I absolutely trust that what colleague has told me is true.)

    1. LCL*

      A half hour dress down! That is sadism. If you want to support her, look into your company’s anti harassment and discipline policies and go from there.

  155. Work Crush*

    This is the most embarrassing thing I’ve ever had to write so going anon…

    I am an entry level associate in a large law firm and I have become close to one of the very senior managers through my work on high-profile cases. We get on well, we have the same sense of humour and come from similar places. He says I am miles ahead of the other associates and because of that he’d like to mentor me, which is great because he is exactly where I want to be in 15 years time.

    Problem is that I have an uncontrollable crush on him and I can’t make it go away. What’s making things worse is that he is very attractive and quite flirty, he’s suggested that we have drinks one evening and he sends me late night emails about nothing much. The rational part of me says not to interpret that as anything more, but there’s something niggling at the back of my mind that he may like me too. Obviously nothing can happen there, it is career suicide!

    Any thoughts on steering this into a professional mentoring relationship when feelings (may) exist on both sides? I don’t want to end our professional relationship as he’s helped me excel through the advice he has given me so far.

    1. babblemouth*

      It sounds like he is behaving in a very inappropriate manner, and abusing the power dynamic between the two of you, What is good here is that you’re aware that you shouldn’t fall for it, even if having a crush on him is not making it easy on you.
      There is no miracle recipe to get over a crush, it just takes time. However, every time he asks you for a drink, or sends you a cute email in the middle of the night, repeat this mantra “He is being incredibly inappropriate and unprofessional.”

      Are there other people at the law firm you could approach to be your mentor? Try to network a bit more so this guy isn’t literally the only senior person you can talk to and look up to.

      1. Moops*

        Yes to this!

        Work Crush, I’ve never been in your situation but here is my take. The real problem is his behavior — it’s a red flag. How long has this been going on (late night emails and flirting)? It sounds like he’s grooming you for an inappropriate relationship and pretty soon you are going to get a FEELINGS email (also written late at night). IDK how these things play out in a law firm, but in universities, the person with the least power usually suffers the most (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/06/opinion/sunday/she-wanted-to-do-her-research-he-wanted-to-talk-feelings.html). The balance of power (him senior, you junior) puts you at the disadvantage.

        To steer this back to a professional relationship (I mention mentoring below):
        Don’t flirt back, no big discussions of your life histories and feelings, be sure all joking is on innocuous topics, and do not accept gifts unless he is giving gifts of similar type and value to ALL the junior associates. DO NOT respond to these late-night, non-work emails. If he asks, you were sleeping, out with friends, etc. You have a life outside of work, and it never includes him. If you’ve already done this, don’t beat yourself up over it), just don’t do it anymore.

        Your crush is irrelevant because you already know it’s not appropriate. To get past the emotional aspect, maybe try looking for flaws in him that would be a turn off, and tell yourself that he is not your type (fighting the ‘grass is greener’ mentality). IDK if this will help—it has worked for me. Also use mantra from babble mouth.

        Mentorships: I’m not a believer in officially announced mentor relationships when a people are already working together (professor and student, senior and junior associates). The structure is already in place – all you need to do is have regular conversations (in the work place, not over drinks) about your work and your future plans. If you’re working on cases together, perhaps you can have debriefs to help you learn general concepts that could be applied to your professional development (in the office, not over drinks). If he says that professional mentoring means spending time outside of work, he’s wrong. (Caveat: this is not wrong for all situations, but given his behavior, I’d be leery of blurring professional boundaries.)

        (sorry for the long answer)

        1. Work Crush*

          Thank you both! Some great advice, I needed to hear that.

          This line in the article resonated with me: “I teach her to draw strong professional boundaries and then to enforce them, not because she should have to, but because nobody else will.” Ow.

      2. Artemesia*

        Perhaps you can date the guy if you are both single. Lots of people meet in the workplace. But a superior/subordinate relationship is almost always a terrible idea for obvious reasons. Absolutely this guy who is coming on to you inappropriately CANNOT be your professional mentor. There might be a time you could date but only if there is a fairly bright line between your work and his and you are not working closely together. And you have to be ready to understand when it is over, YOU are the one who will need to move on. So to be avoided. Mentor? Forget about it. Disaster lies ahead here.

    2. SeekingBetter*

      I have a crush on a recruiter. We don’t hang out and only contact each other when there are opportunities. Treat this as a professional relationship is the best way to handle it.

  156. Anonyby*

    A bit late, but this is inspired by the comments to the question about how to handle notes at work.

    Does anyone use bullet journaling for work? How does it work for you? I’m thinking of trying it so I can get a grip on issues that I’ve been having at work.

  157. Bazinga*

    Sometimes you just need to rant, okay?! Wednesday was my last day at my old job. I had given 30 days notice and in my resignation letter and emails had asked about meeting to discuss a transition plan and how my boss would like to go about informing staff (it’s complicated, but I worked for two nonprofits with the same boss,as the main nonprewas the fiscal manager for the other). Well, this boss just went nuts during those 30days!

    1. Totally blindsided by the fact that all staff at nonprofit A) already knew. I had come to my boss on a Monday to discuss leaving but didn’t make it official until that Wednesday. In the meantime, she told everyone secretly and then ignored my question about telling the staff. Then one day at a meeting with other staff members and outside clients, she said something about me leaving and it was clear they all knew. Ugh. Glad I walked around for a week acting normal, waiting for her go ahead on talking about leaving.

    2. She never talked to me about a transition plan. I E-mailed her a couple times with things I was working on for it and she would just say “Thanks!” She left on a last minute two week vacation (she’s the executive director and our board consists of 4 untrained people, so she just decided on Monday she was taking off two weeks starting next Monday for the weeks around Thanksgiving). That was great. She was barely reachable to anyone and not once did she respond to any of my e-mails, calls, or texts with urgent questions.

    3. On my second to last day she schedules an exit interview with me for the next day at 3pm. That day, she moves it to 1,as other staff had a conflict and needed to meet in the afternoon. No problem. Except she cuts out meeting short at 1:30 and asks to reconvene at 4. Again, no problem… I’m here just finishing up some files etc. Well, I live on-site at the nonprofit and it’s almost 5 and she’s still with the other staff. I knock and ask when she will be done. She says 15 minutes. Didn’t happen. knock again, same response. Fast forward….it is 8:45pm. I’m in the staff housing area and have been packing and just showered. She knocks on my door, expecting to meet now! At 9pm. After making me wait FIVE hours. And coming into my personal space. Look lady, my last day was today and ended at 5! I talked with her for 10 Mim and then saidI had to leave, and she had the nerve to be super offended and tell me I was being unprofessional.

    4. The next day I get several e-mails from her with last minute transition tasks she needs done. What? I don’t work here anymore, yesterday was my last day. I ignore them becI am in the middle of moving all day. Late that night, I open my E-mail and see the last one from her stating that she expects me to get these things done as they are paying me until Friday while I transition. WHAT?! If you wanted me till Friday, you should have talked with me about it back when we were supposed to have a transition meeting! Or at least during the exit interview! I am in no way obliged to do this. You can’t just E-mail and TELL me to work two days after my notice. How incredibly unprofessional.

    Ok. Rant over. I know you are never supposed to leave a job without a new one lined up, but I just couldn’t work for this lady and the exit process tella me I made a good decision.

  158. emma2*

    I have a question about non-LinkedIn social media:
    If potential employers search you and see that either: a) all your personal social media accounts are set to private, or b) can’t find your personal social media accounts – does this significantly count against the job applicant because “they might be hiding something”, or does it generally not matter? I have read in some articles that this is a big deal, even for positions that aren’t social media related.

    1. babblemouth*

      With the exception of LinkedIn, I wouldn’t hold it against anyone that they keep their social media accounts private. It wouldn’t raise flags of any sorts if they chose to do that.
      Keeping LinkedIn completely closed would be a bit strange, considering its purpose is professional networking and you’re applying for jobs.

    1. babblemouth*

      My sympahties for the 7 managers bit. That sounds like hell.

      I would start with acknowledging the elephant in the room with your manager: having 7 managers makes goal setting pretty hard, and has negative consequences on your ability to follow-up properly on everything.

      That being said, pick 2 or 3 of the things you’re proudest of. on of them just writes itself: “resilience in the face of organisational changes” is a diplomatic way of saying “You guys are lucky I didn’t just quit after all this bouncing around” and is totally appropriate as an achievement.
      Then put the ball in your xcurrent manager’s court: I’d love to have a bit more stability to follow through on next year’s goals; how could we make this happen?

  160. Adlib*

    Bereavement leave question. My father-in-law died on Sunday. After the cremation plans were taken care of, the family honored his wishes and decided not to have a funeral/memorial. Most of the family is scattered around the country, and his kids were able to say goodbye to him last week. Since there are no services planned, does bereavement leave apply? I assume so for my husband as it was his father, but I would feel weird about taking any. I am working from home to be near him, but I would feel weird about it if I were just to take whole days off.

  161. Char*

    Handling an awkward application situation: I was recommended for a position by a distant family member I don’t know well. After applying, I realized that there was a misplaced period in my resume. The job would require some editing, so I have to assume that the misplaced period means I’m not going to get it. This is frustrating and I am mortified, but obviously it was my error etc. What I am wondering, however, is how to approach the woman who recommended me to the position. The error is out of character (I’m a new grad working Christmas retail and volunteering plus applying for better jobs, so I’ve been a little scattered) but she doesn’t necessarily know that. I don’t want her to feel like she’s wasted her time on someone incompetent and I would also love her advice in the future. Any advice on how to approach this?

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