open thread – January 27-28, 2017

by Alison Green on January 27, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. Applying Anon*

    I’m applying for a job that has a posted salary on the description, but still asks for applicants to list their desired salary in the cover letter. The post salary is $8,000 more than my desired salary. So should I actually put my lower desired salary in the cover letter or match their higher posted salary? I’m leaning towards being truthful, if only to get their attention from applicants who would stick to the higher salary.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      That won’t get their attention in any way that’s good for you; it would make me wonder if you were adequately qualified or if you had good judgment, not make me want to hire you for lowballing yourself. Ask the posted salary and, if you get the job, enjoy an unexpected $8000 bonus.

      1. k*

        On top of that it would make me wonder if you even fully read the job posting, on the same level as someone who didn’t follow the directions.

        I’m guessing either they want to make sure whoever applies isn’t expecting to negotiate for a higher salary. Or possibly they put the listing together in a rush and didn’t realize they’d contradicted themselves a bit.

      2. Bonky*

        If someone applying for a job I was interviewing for did that, I’d have the same reaction: I’d think it was very weird, I’d question their judgment, and I’d worry about their skillset in relation to what I was asking for. I’d also question their confidence and their own sense of their appropriateness for the role. We do look for people who will be confident at work and comfortable in the role they’re applying for, and this would be a big red flag.

        TL;DR: don’t do it.

    3. Christy*

      Why would you do that? Clearly, they value the job at a $X level. And if you’re applying for it to be at a $X-8000 level, does that mean you’ll bring $8000 less value to the position? You have $8000 less qualifications?

    4. Sparty*

      If they are willing to pay the $8,000 more, put that as your desired salary. It is obviously market rate. Don’t sell yourself short.

    5. KatieKatie*

      Use their salary! Or if they let you leave it blank, leave it blank. Don’t give up your bargaining power!

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        This. It’s like playing chess and going, “here, let me tip over this rook for you.” No.

    6. College Career Counselor*

      Is the posted salary a flat salary or a range? If it’s not a range, I’d go ahead and put the salary they’ve listed for the position.

    7. ThatGirl*

      I wouldn’t, the advice to avoid mentioning desired salary seems like good advice – if it’s in the cover letter and not a system demanding a number, mention that their posted salary is in line with your desired salary or something to that effect. Trying to lowball yourself won’t help you in the long run.

    8. animaniactoo*

      Is it your desired salary because it’s what you think is right based on market rate for the position, or because it’s what you need to live on/would like?

      In either case, you are probably not the only thinking of doing this to “stand out” and you’d be clearly leaving money on the table since they’ve indicated more would be available. That’s not a good thing to do to yourself, and it would be better to “stand out” on being the right person for the role based on your skill set and experience.

      1. Teclatrans*

        This is what I was wondering. OP, why is x-$8000 your desired rate? I ask because it is very very common for folks to approach salary and raise negotiations from the point of what they need to be receiving to meet their needs/desires. (I only learned the error of my ways through reading AAM for…wow, years now.)

        If you *have* researched the normal salary range in your city for this sort of position, and they are offering $8000 more than the customary higher end of the range, then I would wonder if you are reading the ad right, or whether there is something about this particular position that requires the company to offer a higher salary to be competitive Not that the latter would be a red flag, but it might mean that your own salary expectation would increase when you learn to are on call 24-7 or something. Either of these would be good reasons to be cagey about expected salary. I like the suggestions people are throwing out to say something like, “the posted salary is within my range.”

    9. Trout 'Waver*

      I’d put, “The posted salary of $x,000 meets my expectations.”

      If you put a lower number in, you’ll be viewed as less competent. You won’t be viewed as a bargain.

    10. AndersonDarling*

      The application is asking for your desired rate because some people will apply thinking they can still get more than the posted rate. Folks will ask for Posted Salary+$5K. So it’s fine to put fill in the rate they have on the job ad…it shows you took the time to read the ad.

    11. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, posting a desired salary $8000 lower than what they’re offering makes no sense. That isn’t “honest,” it’s self-sabotaging. “Desired salary” isn’t some empirically predetermined number you have to be “honest” about. It’s determined by market forces and is fluid.

    12. BRR*

      I wouldn’t. It’s perfectly ok for a job to pay more than your desired salary. Plus do you know the other parts of the compensation package? I would maybe put in my cover letter (since they asked for it) that their posted salary range of $X is in line with your desired salary.

      You should focus on having you accomplishments help you get their attention. If they let a lower salary guide their hiring decisions, you don’t want to work there.

    13. Artemesia*

      If I got a lowball from an applicant when I had posted a higher salary, I’d probably discard their application assuming they were not qualified. Otherwise why would they ask for less than I already said I was prepared to pay.

    14. Jaydee*

      You don’t do yourself any favors by lowballing the salary. When they ask that, they want to weed out people whose desired salary is way above their posted salary so that they don’t waste their time interviewing great candidates who aren’t going to accept the job at what they’re willing to pay. Would they like to get someone for less than the posted salary? Maybe. But if they really wanted to pay someone $8,000 less than what they are posting, they should have posted a salary that was $8,000 lower. If you match their posted salary, what you show is that you’ve read the job posting and are aware of what they are willing to pay.

      Now, if they’ve posted a salary range, you might even want to put your desired salary slightly above the bottom of their range if it’s reasonable based on your education/experience for that position. That way you’re leaving yourself a little room to negotiate by not coming in at the absolute lowest number they are willing to offer, but you’re also signaling that you know the top number in the range is intended as a maximum, not as a starting salary.

    15. Mimmy*

      Why do employers do this? My university includes the pay (hourly or salary) in each post. Yet, when I applied for a part-time job last fall, the system asked me to enter my desired pay. Most times the posted pay is a range, but IIRC, the job gave a specific hourly pay, $X/hr. So I had to put exactly that, $X/hr.

      I like the wording others gave, saying that the posted salary is in line with your expectations.

      1. AJ*

        Seems like that the “desired salary” box is a default in the application management system your university purchased, and either it can’t be disabled or HR has neglected to do so.

      2. Anon13*

        I think it’s because (sadly) there will always be some applicants who don’t read the entire listing. I guess they figure having people actually type out the amount is a good way of ensuring they actually read the salary portion of the listing, and it’s in line with what the applicant is looking for. (I’m not in HR, though, so this is just a guess.)

    16. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It won’t get their attention in a good way! Decent employers aren’t looking for the lowest-priced candidate, especially not one who comes in lower than what they already said they would pay. That’s not how you stand out. Stand out by being a great candidate, nothing else.

  2. Audiophile*

    I’m resigning from my job today. I had an interview on Wednesday and had called out sick. I came in yesterday and repeated that I was sick to direct boss. A few minutes later, big boss told me she saw me on Wednesday.

    We’re scheduled to have a meeting in the afternoon at which point I’ll hand in a resignation letter.
    I’ll ask that they not contest unemployment and set a timeline for when I’d officially stop working. I only took the interview because I felt the PIP was not going to end well.

    1. Whats In A Name*

      I hope your resignation goes well – I am sorry you were put in an uncomfortable position but hopefully it all turns out for the best and they grant your wish to not contest unemployment.

    2. Any Moose*

      Don’t resign-ask to be laid off. And so what if she saw you? Just because you are out sick doesn’t mean you are stuck inside. Maybe you were going to the doctor or picking up medicine or whatever.

      1. Audiophile*

        I don’t know that they would agree to a layoff. While I’m inclined to agree with you that an employee’s sick time is their business, I’m sure it was obvious what I was doing. At this point, they know I lied and they’re clearly angry about it.

        I really hoped to stay a few more months and then leave.

    3. Anon13*

      Ugh. This really stinks. Fingers crossed that you are able to get unemployment (and that the interview leads to an offer or another interview, if you felt it would be a good fit).

      1. Audiophile*

        Two reasons: I was basically on a performance improvement plan, and it did not seen to be turning around to their satisfaction. And I got caught lying about being sick. So if they weren’t planning to terminate me BEFORE, I’m prerty sure they area now.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          If you quit, you probably won’t get unemployment, whereas you might be able to if you’re fired. So I would take that into consideration when you talk to them.

          Also, good luck with the interview!

          1. Audiophile*

            Well I’d ask them not to contest unemployment, if I resign. Which they may be willing to do.

            1. MegaMoose, Esq*

              Eligibility for unemployment in the US is determined by a state agency, not your employer, so even if your employer agrees not to contest, you can absolutely be denied benefits (and most if not all states deny benefits if you quit).

              1. copy run start*

                IF you were going to do it, you’d have to say you were laid off or quit because you thought you were going to be fired.

                Saying you’re laid off is very shaky legally, but I’ve seen it work successfully when the employer doesn’t contest. You’re still at risk of UI fraud though.

                Saying you quit because you thought you’d be fired would have to go to someone to adjudicate. I’ve seen it work when employers couldn’t prove they gave the employee warnings in certain situations. This can turn into a long drawn out process for not a whole lot of money. You can appeal the decision UI makes and so can your employer.

                I’ve seen many failures in both cases.

            2. Uzumaki Naruto*

              I think this will become really hard to manage if you lead with resigning.

              Maybe start by seeing what they have to say. If they’re mad or look like they want to fire you, then raise the issue of whether they think it’s not working out and if so whether you ought to mutually discuss parting ways, and as part of that parting ways you want a severance or for them not to contest unemployment.

              If you just flat-out quit, they have no reason to offer you unemployment. But if they’re going to fire you (for seeing you in a suit!), they will probably have to pay it. So then at that point you’re just negotiating what to call it.

      2. Audiophile*

        Thanks for the advice, Alison and everyone else.

        I kept my mouth shut, like everyone suggested and I didn’t resign. They let me go but they’re not calling it a firing and won’t contest unemployment if I file and will provide a positive reference. I eventually said I had an appointment in the city and that was why big boss saw me.

    5. Mena*

      Yeah, I was out on Tuesday … getting a chest X-ray and picking up prescriptions.
      Don’t resign – see what they have to say first.

      1. Audiophile*

        I was in a suit and heels, though I’m not sure how good a look big boss got, but there’s no way they’d believe that. I was in Manhattan, I don’t live anywhere near there so it just wouldn’t fly. That would only serve to make the initial lie worse. I’m worried about letting them fire me because I’m being canvassed for a state job, I’d rather resign and say it was a poor fit.

        1. MoinMoin*

          I trust you know the situation better than we do, so good luck and I’m sorry. But if they won’t agree not to contest unemployment, I strongly suggest not resigning. Sick time should just be renamed ‘unscheduled time off.’ That’s all it is and the only parameter by which it should generally be judged.

          1. Marisol*

            Yeah, I don’t see why you’d want to rely on an employer’s goodwill regarding a matter like unemployment. What’s in it for them; why would they give you money when they don’t have to? It seems risky to me.

          1. Uzumaki Naruto*

            This is believable — I suspect some people would actually get dressed up to see a legit expert medical specialist. At the very least it gives you enough cover to go on.

            Plus, if you ever want to have to explain being fired or why you left a job, “I was fired because they saw me wearing a suit outside of work” strikes me as a really good reason.

            1. Turanga Leela*

              Yeah, especially if you have to meet with a group of doctors or administrators. People have to meet with panels to discuss treatment plans. Or maybe Audiophile had to meet with the hospital ethics committee or something.

          3. Turanga Leela*

            Also, even if you already called in that day with a head cold, stomach bug, etc… Let me tell you about something that happens to me. Occasionally I’ll start the day feeling like I’m just kind of sick, but eventually it gets much worse, and I have to call my doctor or the nurse hotline, and they’ll tell me to go see a doctor. Once they sent me to the ER (for my kid, not myself, but still). That could have happened to you.

            I’m not saying to say any of this—don’t get into elaborate stories—but you can remind yourself that these things happen, and you legitimately could have had a cold in the morning but have had to see a specialist in the afternoon.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          I am needing a follow up here, how did you fare with this? Do you still have a job? I hope you are okay.

          1. Audiophile*

            It got nested under some other comments.

            They let me go the other day, but are not calling it a firing and have agreed not to contest unemployment. They’ve also agreed to provide a positive reference. Tomorrow, I’ll begin my unemployment claim, but I’m hopeful it won’t be a long stretch. Last time I was unemployed at the end of June, it was about 2 1/2 weeks before I got a new offer.

    6. Ketchikan9*

      I agree with what many others are saying: Don’t resign. Sick doesn’t mean stuck home. They may even be bluffing in the hopes of getting this response out of you. Please let us know how it works out! I am worried for you.

    7. Sas*

      Oh, this is so rough to see. Have you tried what Aam suggested? That is really rough that someone would do that to you. Don’t think that “what you were doing was obvious.” Unless you pulled your pants down and were taking a shi- in the employee parking lot, well, even then it could be argued I suppose. Try to take these posters good words to use.

    8. pahcad*

      Why are they surprised/offended you are looking for another position? People start looking if they are on a PIP. It’s smart and normal. If they ask, tell them you had important personal legal appointment and leave at that. It’s none of their business. Don’t hand in the resignation letter until it is absolutely necessary. Keep your options open. Good luck.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Hell, I’m looking now because my division’s metrics have changed in such a drastic way that I know for a fact I won’t be able to keep up, and I’m not even on a PIP. I’m preempting the PIP. So I would not blame someone in Audiophile’s position for looking while on a PIP – that’s just smart.

      2. Not A Morning Person*

        The concern by the managers may be that they can say that the OP lied to them. It could be because OP requested to use sick leave vs. vacation/pto day. Although in most cases if it is classified as PTO, there doesn’t need to be a reason attached, managers will be more flexible for last minute time off when you say you are ill. But when an employee is on a PIP, managers can be stricter. I like Alison’s advice. Call it a last minute appointment for a medical evaluation by a hard to schedule physician’s office or whatever. Don’t quit. See what they say first. Negotiate after you know for a fact that they intend to fire you vs. them just getting some explanation for what they think they saw. Good luck in finding a position that fits!

      3. TootsNYC*

        Yeah, I don’t get this.

        I’d be so happy if someone I had on a PIP was looking for a new job. I’d hope that they’d get a new job quickly, and all the uncertainty and extra work on my end would be over!

  3. Definitely Anon Today*

    Just over six months ago I got promoted to my current role which was a big step up for me in position though not so much in pay. I was friendly with my predecessor and worked with her on some projects so I had a good idea of what the position was and I read and re-read the job description before I took the position. Before I was essentially an admin assistant and now I am a department of one in charge of coordinating compliance efforts (among other things) with my boss who is one of the VPs and oversees a massive arm of the company.
    So here’s my issue…its clear on my job description that I am meant to be assisting with compliance documentation, but it seems like my boss has just let me “have at it”. This is a massive undertaking and I essentially need to tap into every person’s knowledge to compose these extensive reports, which, I have never done before.
    At first, I was concerned that my boss was setting me up to be the scapegoat, but her name is still on the documentation as the submitter and she seems entirely pleased with my work which is why she just tells me to submit it without her review. (And has just signed my probationary review stating how impressed she is, etc., so it’s on record). I’ve just got a bunch of major compliance reports that need to be done relatively soon dropped on my desk, and while I’m up for a challenge, the stakes are really high; if I mess up and we are deemed noncompliant it would certainly be the end of my career and my company risks losing the new program we fought so hard for. Which would be a VERY VERY big deal. I really don’t feel that I am being compensated for the level of responsibility that I have seemingly undertaken. The difference between my admin salary and what I make now is about 4k. With all these massive projects that I’m about to undertake, should I speak to my boss about a raise? Or is it too soon?

    1. Smiling*

      Is it possible that you misunderstood your boss? Perhaps the boss wants you to create the drafts of the reports, but will review everything with you once the first draft it done.

    2. Liz2*

      So if you were paid more you’d be able to be confident in your reports? I guess I am not sure if the issue is a lack of experience and worries of backlash when things go bad, or the issue is payment for the level of work they ask for?

      1. animaniactoo*

        I think it’s more “I’d feel appropriately compensated for taking on this much responsibility and risking my entire career”.

        I think the bigger issue is to push back on the “submit without my review” and be clear that since it is her name on the submission, DAT doesn’t feel comfortable doing that. If her boss would like to submit it herself without reviewing it or give it a cursory review and telling DAT to go ahead and submit, it takes most of the responsibility for it off DAT’s shoulders.

        1. AnonAnalyst*

          I agree with this. Since the documentation is submitted under the boss’ name, I would imagine that if issues come up the repercussions would fall on her since it’s ultimately her responsibility and she’s giving the sign off.

          I personally would find it odd if someone on my team came to me asking for a raise in this situation. I think after you’ve been there longer you could make the case for a raise because you have taken on a lot of that work and saved your manager a lot of time since she obviously values the quality of your work. But I think you need to be in that role for at least a year before you can convincingly make that argument.

          In the interim, I would continue to forward all of the documentation along for your manager’s review and maybe have a broader conversation about your concerns so you are both on the same page.

        2. Definitely Anon Today*

          Yes, this. I think what’s bothering me is that these reports aren’t regular annual or monthly reports. They’re massive we-usually-have-a-whole-department-do this, only occur once every five year type reports, so I feel like the stakes are so high and I’ve got too much skin in the game and that I’m being a taken advantage of a little bit. I did a search yesterday of jobs similar to mine, with similar levels of (my new) responsibilities, at companies of comparable size. I couldn’t find one that is responsible for all the areas that I deal with – most only dealt with one of the three, though there were a few that dealt with two, and all of them paid double, or more than what I currently make.

          I did also talk to my boss about whether or not she intends me to take lead for the entire project or if she just wants me to get the ball rolling and she confirmed that yes, I’m responsible for all of it (and even tacked on a few more new responsibilities!) from start to finish. The only person that will be reviewing it is the grandboss, who typically skims through these sorts of things as his signature is required to verify the content.

          1. animaniactoo*

            Question: Are you rotating through due once-every-five-year reports, or is this “these few reports which come up once every 5 years and then your job will go back to more mundane stuff”?

            1. Definitely Anon Today*

              That’s a really good question and the short answer is no. This is a one-time thing…sort of. My boss made it very clear that she didn’t appreciate how my predecessor managed the department and going forward she has asked that I do two yearly audits in preparation of our next big five-year report (which has slightly different and more in depth criteria than the current one). The audits would be on two different topics. This is in addition to the other big ticket items that I’m actually meant to fully take care of – I don’t want to get into specifics, but I’m also responsible for the planning and assessment of goals for each department in the company as well as for the formal results from three big conference-like events we hold a year (think creation of paper survey, dissemination, retrival, running data, formal analysis, dissemination of appropriate results to 90+ people, all done manually despite my attempts to get proper softwares.) So this vastly increases my workload in an area that is barely covered on my job description, it’s simply handled as “assist the VP with compliance”.

              1. animaniactoo*

                Okay, I think then that it sounds like you have the room to say something along the lines of:

                “Lucinda, I’d like to talk to you about my responsibilities. First off, I’d like to be clear that I’m not complaining – I’m glad that you think I’m capable of doing all of this, and that you’ve been happy with the results of my work. However, it is a lot more than I thought I was taking on, so I’ve done some checking to see what the general standard would be for this kind of work. While I realize that it would be relatively soon to discuss a raise, it looks like my salary is on the low side. Is there room to talk about that about how or when we could get me up to something that’s closer to market rate?”

                That said – if you have a yearly performance review, it might make a lot more sense to make the argument for a raise then; with a solid year’s worth of proven ability to do the job and in a setting that is more of a natural venue for talking about such stuff.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      Personally, I think 6 months is a little soon regardless of what you’ve accomplished. But your boss may disagree. I wouldn’t push too hard, tbh. Maybe you can say something like, “When I took this position, I thought I would be doing X, Y, and Z tasks, but instead I’m doing the higher stress and higher profile tasks of A, B, and C. I am working independently and at a high level, and have been successful at 1, 2, and 3 specific accomplishments. I appreciate the faith you have shown in me so far. I know I’ve only been here 6 months, but I think we should review my compensation given how this position has changed and the nature of the work I’ve been doing. $XX,000 is in line with the local job market for people who accomplish these tasks.”

      If you get a no, you can follow up with, “Does it make sense to come back to this if and when we pass the compliance audit, since it is such a major milestone?”

  4. AliceBD*

    I’m applying for jobs, and I was supposed to follow up with some people this week. But I was in a car accident on Sunday night, so all of that went out the window since I’ve been dealing with not feeling great, plus insurance nonsense and not having a car. I want to reply to some people tonight. Do I say I was in an accident? Or just not mention it? How do I handle it?

    1. Audiophile*

      Are these places you’ve interviewed? Or just jobs you applied to? I don’t check on applications personally, as most companies send out automated replies as a confirmation.

      As for your question, I think you could mention being in an accident.

      1. AliceBD*

        Sorry yes they are places I have done preliminary interviews with. (HR/recruiter, not hiring manager)

    2. EnviroEducator*

      I think you could definitely mention it – not go into any detail, but just a quick thing saying, “I apologize for my delayed response; I was in a car accident on Sunday evening. I’m recovering well, but my week hasn’t gone quite as planned!”

      2. Marisol*

        I like this response the best of the ones I’ve read in this thread. I personally would be sure to mention my injury, directly or indirectly, so as not to seem like I just couldn’t handle my shit. So something like, “I’m recovering well” as EnviroEducator suggests is great, or “my injuries are not severe, but they are slowing me down a bit. I expect to be back on track within the next 7 to 10 days.” That’s not a perfect wording but what I’m trying to get across is that I’d want to avoid giving the impression that I had a fender bender and felt too emotionally overwhelmed by it to coordinate repairs, deal with insurance, etc. I would avoid any language like what you say in your original post–not to pick on you; I know this is just a blog comment, but just to give an example–“I’m not feeling great” could be interpreted as an emotional state; “insurance nonsense” is also vague and a bit too editorial (although I agree, it is a bunch of nonsense and can completely relate to what you’re going through). Just state the facts: “I will be getting my rental on Wednesday and am available to meet any day after that,” “I anticipate a full recovery by next week, and will resume answering emails and coordinating meeting times then,” that sort of thing.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Oh dear, I am so sorry. I hope you’re on the mend! Be gentle with yourself.

      I would just reply, via email or by phone, with a quick “I am so sorry for the delayed response; I was in a car accident on Sunday. I would love to know the status of my application.”

    4. cookie monster*

      as a hiring manager expecting to hear from you, I would definitely want to hear something along the lines of “so sorry I’m just getting back to you now, I had a car accident over the weekend and have been dealing with that all week” or something.

      1. k*

        Yes. Telling them about the accident shows that this is a fluke, and doesn’t represent how you normally handle yourself.

    5. Nynaeve*

      If you just applied, but haven’t been in any kind of contact, don’t worry about it. You don’t need to (and probably shouldn’t) follow up at all. If you were contacted about an interview or are following up after an interview, then you can definitely apologize for the delay and briefly mention the accident to provide context.

      I was in an accident two weeks ago, so I sympathize! It can really throw you off your game. Cut yourself some slack because it really is a lot to deal with.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      A car accident can make our bodies feel like one gigantic bruise. Be sure to get extra rest and perhaps a good soak in a warm tub.

      You can check with your policy/agent to see if you are covered for the cost of a temporary, substitute vehicle.

      I think it is fine to say that you were sidetracked because a car accident but you are getting back on track now and following up to their email.

    7. TeacherNerd*

      Were you told WHEN to follow up this week? Since it’s at the end of the week at this point, I’d shoot folks an e-mail (if that’s possible) and just do the “Hey, I’m just following up!” thing. I’d also say something along the lines of, “I was an unwilling participant in a car accident earlier in the week and I haven’t been feeling well as a result; I’m so sorry it’s the end of this week that you’re hearing from me.”

    8. Not A Morning Person*

      The advice from others about how to follow up is good. On another note, if the accident was caused by the other driver, let YOUR insurance company handle it. Use your company and let them negotiate with the other driver or the other driver’s insurance company. Don’t even talk with the other party’s insurance representative. Let your insurance representative guide you. (Of course, if you were at fault, your insurance representative should already be involved.) I am sorry your are having to deal with this! Take care of yourself!

  5. Sunflower*

    My boss has been experiencing a lot of personal loss lately. Shes had 2 family members die in the past 7 weeks and her grandmom had a stroke few weeks ago and is taking a downturn. Of course, these people are spread out all over the country and her family is a little nuts so between traveling, handling the logistics of all these things and trying to keep her family in check all while keeping up with work, she’s exhausted.

    She seems to be handling it really well- not bringing any issues into work, relaxing when she can, still getting work done but I’m not really sure what I should be doing. I’ve let her know that I’m available to do anything she needs- work late, travel, etc. I’m trying to take as much off her plate as I’m able to but there are certain things I’m not at the level to handle. I know her boss has said to not worry about work and do what she needs to do and we’ll get stuff done here. I’ve expressed that I’m sorry but I’m really bad at handling this kind of stuff.

    IDK if I should be doing anything else? Send a card? Offer any other help?

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I think a card expressing sympathy for tough times would be a nice thing to do. Otherwise, I’d follow her lead and let her figure out what level of help she needs. In similar circumstances, I’ve found work kind of a welcome distraction, and I’ve been annoyed by overly solicitous coworkers trying to lighten the load.

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      I think you should just keep doing what you’ve been doing – especially keeping an eye out for things that you can proactively take off her plate. It sounds like between you and her boss, she’s got a really great support team around her, and I’m sure she’s grateful.

    3. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Ooof, that’s rough. If you cook, how about making a meal that freezes well? I did this for a co-worker once, it was nothing special, just a chicken dish. They told me later how much they appreciated it because it was one less thing they had to think about.

      1. Biff*

        What a great suggestion. So often when people make something for someone, it’s baked goods. A chicken dish, or soup, or breakfast bars would be great.

      2. Sunflower*

        I would love to but we aren’t in the same office and she changes her diet a lot. Like one day she’s vegetarian, the next she’s vegan.

        I know she really likes candy- she always carries it around?

        1. KellyK*

          Vegan is more restrictive, so if she fluctuates between the two, something that avoids animal products entirely should be safe for either. If she changes more than just that, like one week she’s doing low-carb paleo and eating piles of steaks and the next week she’s vegan, then the only way to make her something is to ask what foods she’s currently avoiding.

          1. vpc*

            Fruit goes bad too fast and you can be overwhelmed with food at first (in my casserole-bringing midwestern heritage, anyway) — maybe a vegan bean chili, pre-packaged in two or three containers that can freeze?

            One of my go-to “visiting the sick or laid up” meals is chicken tender packets. Get a big package of raw chicken tenders at the grocery store and split them up into appropriately sized foil packets (one-three tenders per person in the family in each packet) and then in each packet drizzle a tbsp of olive oil and sprinkle with some kind of seasoning. Use a permanent marker to write ingredients and instructions on the packet: i.e. “chicken tenders with ranch seasoning, bake 40 min at 350” or something — wrap up the packet and they freeze; throw them in the oven directly in the packet to cook, no dirty dishes.

            1. Kms1025*

              This is a wonderful idea! I’m going to try it for myself for quick and easy “oh crap I forgot to lay something out for dinner” nights :)

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      Just keep up the great support and sympathy you’re showing by doing your job well, and by being extra flexible. You shouldn’t give her a gift or anything; she knows you’re thinking of her and wanting to support her in any way you can, work-wise.

    5. Chaordic One*

      It sounds like you’re a thoughtful and considerate person and I think you’ve done everything well. Your boss has been through a lot lately and isn’t out of the woods yet. It’s hard to say for sure what will happen so just be organized and available for her and your company in the future.

      Keep the office going in her absence by doing as much as you can without her and help her get caught up when she gets back.

    6. SomeoneLikeAnon*

      I’d leave her alone/follow her lead. People grieve in different ways and you bringing up how you could help could make her feel very uncomfortable.

      When my father died everyone constantly coming over to “see how I was” or “if I needed anything” grated on my nerves. Most people weren’t close friends, it felt intrusive, nosey, and forced.

  6. Oh Lord, This Job*

    This week’s work drama roundup:
    (a) One of my coworkers has come down with some mystery issue where he needs to require accommodation to have people not come in sick. (Beyond that, I don’t know what is going on and he really doesn’t want me to know, so I can’t elaborate.) Apparently when he told TPTB this, he was told he has to disclose this to the entire office by doing a presentation at the all staff meeting. Whaaaat? Um, why can’t someone just say something like, “Please don’t come into work ill?” and leave it there? Coworker has gone to disability services to complain and higher ups are being called. We had the meeting yesterday and so far, no presentation.
    (b) At the aforementioned staff meeting, instead we had a higher-up come in for a Q&A about office transitions. During which she admitted that higher-ups here make decisions and then don’t tell the peons, they ask for input and don’t actually want it, nobody does cross training and “successful orgs don’t work like that” (LOL), bullying is going on, and not every person should be made a supervisor based on seniority. Thanks for your honesty!
    (c ) The aforementioned coworker got up the nerve during the meeting to ask the BigBoss when he was going to address our lists of complaints they had us make in November. BigBoss was all, “We already did that…uh, I guess when my #2 comes back I could have her do something…” Then BigBoss called him for a “chat” right after the meeting was over. He didn’t get fired, it sounds like he “let it all hang out,” and BigBoss basically said he wasn’t aware of all of the drama and nobody had told him much of anything (BigBoss currently doesn’t even have an office in the office that he runs, he works on the very opposite side of town from us), but he doesn’t know how to handle it. Which is about what I figured, really.
    (d) We had our building shut down because there “might” be protesters this week. There weren’t any, so halfway through the day they started announcing it was some kind of emergency maintenance training… thing. LOL.
    (e) The BigBoss’s secretary is retiring and they’re…basically not gonna be able to replace her for a few weeks so, hope we can get someone else to deal with money issues between now and then!

    My coworkers still get angry at all of this shit and think they can do something about it (and if they can, good on them! So far nobody else has managed, but if they’re willing to risk their jobs…up to you), but at this point all I can do is sit back and laugh and roll my eyes.

    1. this*

      Yes – sometime it’s all about the entertainment value. Although eventually that isn’t even enough anymore.

    2. Artemesia*

      If an office is going to have an accommodation in which no one can work sick they are going to have to provide unlimited sick leave.

        1. KellyK*

          Yeah, very true. If someone really can’t be around sick people, that should be accommodated, but not at the expense of making other employees burn through all their paid sick time and have to take days unpaid.

        2. Oh Lord, This Job*

          They’ve tried to set up WFH, but almost nobody could get the systems to work remotely. This really isn’t a job where you can do that anyway.

          As for sick leave, apparently this is more of a problem for the part time workers than the full time people. Or anyone who’s used up all their time with their own illnesses, I guess.

    3. Temperance*

      Re: (a)

      That’s sort of strange. I have a weak immune system and would LOVE this, but I think it needs more explanation. Do they mean that you can’t come in with allergies, or a cold, or a sinus infection that’s being treated but looks scary? I think that you guys need more information than “don’t come to work sick”.

      1. RVA Cat*

        I just hope they don’t make this guy give a presentation (!) to disclose to the whole office (!) that he is HIV positive or is having chemo or something. Because, wow.

        1. Lee*

          Or lupus. Or any array of auto-immune conditions.
          Also, some people show no symptoms before they’re “stay at home sick” but are still highly contagious, so their policy doesn’t really 100% solve anything, especially in the long term.

      2. Bex*

        My office had a similar situation, and it was due to a coworker going through chemo. They handled it very tactfully though. There was an office-wide reminder not to come to the office if you felt sick, and each team lead talked to their teams about working-from-home options. They also posted signs at the sinks reminding people that handwashing was important to keep everyone healthy. Most of us knew why they were doing it, but they were very careful not to single out the employee.

      3. Marcela*

        This can become very complicated if not done properly. I am always sick: I have intestinal endometriosis and suffer it every single day. Being sick is normal for me, although now it’s been controlled for two years and I live like a normal and healthy person. However, do not tell me “don’t come to work sick”, first because I can’t, and second, because I already suffer because of this dammed illness and accepting its consequences has not been a day in the park AT ALL. It is precisely my conflict with endo that would make me react badly, even knowing that by sick, nobody is thinking about me.

      4. Oh Lord, This Job*

        That’s what I’d like to know. Like if I have a sore throat and stuffy nose for five days, I have to spend all week out of work? And who’s going to do my job (which nobody else does and I have no backup) while I’m out with a stuffy nose?

    4. Stellaaaaa*

      If the accommodation is “don’t come in sick,” IMO it’s completely logical for there to be an official office-wide meeting to discuss what counts as being sick and how absences will be handled. Does his accommodation mean paying YOU to not show up? Or alternately, does his accommodation punish you by forcing you to use up your sick time or risk your employment by forcing you to take off all of allergy season? I have to say, I don’t think this accommodation would fall under the “reasonable” umbrella without a whole lot of clarification and specifics being hammered out. This guy’s ability to show up to work with a compromised immune system (or whatever) doesn’t automatically trump your right to come to work with the sniffles.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Half of us walk around sick and don’t even realize for a day or three. One place I worked for the whole department need to call in for a whole week. This would have shut down the department which could not be happening.

      2. AMT*

        It would be logical to have an informational meeting like the one you describe, but it sounds like he was asked to disclose his specific illness in a staff meeting, which I don’t think is reasonable. Saying “X, Y, and Z can make me sick” doesn’t have to entail saying “I have X disease,” and it really should be a manager making the announcement to preserve the employee’s privacy.

        1. Stellaaaaa*

          I’m not so sure. This is a case where every single employee, not just the employer, is bearing the brunt of the accommodation and possibly being punished for their own imperfect health. That already makes me wonder if this accommodation is reasonable. The employees are being asked to self-police when they possibly also have their own illnesses and accommodations. Things don’t have to get to “not everyone can have sandwiches” territory before the only way to clarify things is to explain what the accommodated employee is working with. We’re talking about a situation where management can ask employees about their health and make determinations about it in the interest of protecting the accommodated employee. How on earth are they going to know if anyone is sick without asking them? How are they going to know if employees have “banned” illnesses without inquiring about specifics? I don’t see how that could be possible if the accommodated employee can’t also be asked what he has. Either everyone has to disclose illnesses (which isn’t cool) or no one does.

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      Okay the coworker in (a) is my hero. Anything to get sick people to stay hoe and not share germs. Really we should have that here because there’s a lady on medication that suppresses her immune system. She had to take a month off the last time she got sick. I feel for her.

      1. Temperance*

        I’ve been fighting severe bronchitis/near pneumonia since the first week of January. It’s not really feasible for me to stay home for almost a month with a minor illness.

    7. MoinMoin*

      Glad you have a sense of humor, geez….
      That presentation seems like an excellent way to target individuals requiring accommodations! Good gracious, I hope your HR department has better sense.

  7. bassclefchick*

    Well, I have an interview set up for next week. Obviously, my resume and cover letters are doing their jobs. They did ask if I’ve been fired and I was honest. I’ve been rather picky about what I apply for, so this should be a better fit.

    Now I’m off to an appointment with a career counselor, so things are looking up!

  8. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

    So please don’t turn this into a politics discussion, because I’m going to skirt pretty close….but the next few months are go time for me on the project I’ve been working on since August, and I really need to be productive, but I feel like current events are bumming me out so hard I can’t focus and don’t care. Any tips on pushing forward and being productive in times that feel fraught?

    1. Anonymous Poster*

      When I’ve been in a similar situation, I had a self-imposed media blackout or really restricted what I look at. If things affected me I’d hear through management and via email, instead of trying to figure it out via the media.

      It might help? Good luck.

        1. Christy*

          I deleted the Facebook app (I still use Groups to keep in touch with my internet friends) and I am so much happier. If I’m ever desperate I can use the browser.

          1. Jaydee*

            You have changed my life for the better! I didn’t know there was a separate Groups app. My Facebook feed causes me so much anxiety, but I kept the app to keep track of posts in my groups.

        2. Not The Droid You Are Looking For*

          The best advice I have had is really to stay in the moment and focus on the projects we can work on now, rather than worry about what might happen (or what might not get funded).

        3. Getaway Girl*

          I deactivated my Facebook account for this reason, about two weeks ago. I have been surprised at how little I’ve missed it. Outside of work, I’ve been happier and more productive with a few hobbies that are infinitely more rewarding than getting bummed out by current events. Maybe I’m putting myself in a bubble, but I’m giving myself permission for the short term. Sometimes you just have to tune out of what’s important to the masses to focus on what’s important to you. Good luck with the project.

        4. zora*

          Yeah, I deleted Fb from my phone. I have aggressively curated my instagram feed so that I am only following people who post art or videos of cake decorating, etc, so that i don’t see anything political.

          And I’ve downloaded some meditation/yoga apps that have nature sounds with calming videos so i can take 5 minutes to stare at rain in the trees, etc. I like the Calm app, but there are tons.

          2. MoinMoin*

            Instagram doesn’t have features like friending without following, right? I deleted my FB app back in August, which turned out to be a great decision (and I’ve pretty much cut down on most news since November), but FB friends have started finding me on Insta now and they follow me and then I feel like I have to follow them and my amazing feed is going from dogs and hiking to just the same junk I was getting away from on FB.

            1. zora*

              No, it doesn’t, but unfollowing them isn’t like unfriending on FB, they can still follow you if they want to!

              I just unfollowed a bunch of people. It’s probably temporary. I do feel like people feel differently about being unfollowed on IG than being unfriended on FB. I don’t think you should feel obligated to follow someone back. I have lots of friends now who follow me on IG, but I don’t follow back. I don’t think people really notice who isn’t following them, and there are different expectations for IG. I hope. ;o)_

              1. MoinMoin*

                Thanks! I see a lot of #followforfollow stuff, but your version of Insta etiquette sounds better, so I’ll take it as canon. ;-)

                2. Random Citizen*

                  Other option is to follow them but mute their posts (I think you can do that on ig). That way you are still “following” them, if they happen to care about that, but their posts don’t show up in your feed.

      2. Hellanon*

        I’ve put a Personal Media Strategy in place, with involves a) no TV or radio news about current politics – that stuff gets mentioned, I switch the channel – and b) drastic limits on what I’m reading/engaging with on social media. Actively avoiding the broadcast media coverage keeps my blood pressure/rage response down to a manageable level, and for bonus points, has improved my ability to concentrate on books. Currently I’m reading Misbehaving, about how people make bad decisions & how economics as a discipline has such a hard time coming to terms with this idea.

        So, avoidance, basically, and engaging only with what you can productively engage with – feeling yourself turn into a cartoon Tasmanian devil is unsustainable in the long term, and as it’s only going to get worse, long-term sustainability is going to be a challenge.

      3. AKJ*

        This. I’ve been doing the same thing, shutting off as much media as I can. It’s not that I don’t want to be informed, but at a certain point you have to take care of yourself too. I’ve also found myself getting more interested in my hobbies since the election – embroidery and what not – and that has also been a helpful distraction. I didn’t specifically set out to do that, but I think it was a subconscious way of trying to get preoccupied with something other than the news.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          I’m lucky in that my hobby is cooking, which I do every night anyway.

        3. Witty Nickname*

          I cut out most broadcast media as a source of information back in 2010, and have started to even phase out some of the political comedy programs that I think do good commentary and generally have points of view that I like, because even that has become too stressful. I do better if I get my news online – I can save articles to read later if I can’t handle the stress now, or skip things completely (or read about that topic from a different source). But it’s also important for me to have a creative outlet that lets me channel some of that stress. I’m a knitter, but I feel guilty if I am not knitting something for my knitting group at church or the blanket I’m working on for my daughter. So I gave myself permission to take up a new hobby and jumped into counted cross stitch (I’ve done embroidery and printed cross stitch in the past, so it wasn’t a huge leap to counted); and since when I jump in on a craft, I like to just jump into the deep end, I’ve decided to make this my feminist creative outlet, and have started to design my own pattern (combination of graph paper and an online program that will take a picture and convert it to a cross stitch pattern).

      4. Lily in NYC*

        This. I recently had three weeks off and I didn’t watch or read the news the entire time (and I used to work in political journalism and am a bit of a news junkie). It was glorious – my stress level decreased dramatically. I’ve been back for three weeks now and I’ve semi-continued my news blackout. I keep myself informed, but I try to step back when I find myself getting stressed again. My mom is annoyed because I cut her off when she starts complaining about you-know-who, but she’ll get over it.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          I forgot to say – I’ve been watching a lot of ancient history documentaries lately. It makes me feel better to remember that yes, the world is messed up, but it always has been and we get through it.

          1. zora*

            Yeah, I’ve always been an activist/worked in politics, so it was weird to make myself take a total break from the news, but it’s definitely helping.

            And my replacement has been really old comedy podcasts, like 2012 and earlier, Comedy Bang Bang, Thrilling Adventure Hour, Nerdist, anything that is silly and makes me laugh. And I’ve been reading only novels, which might be the best thing, actually, reading a wonderful Octavia Butler book is making me so happy.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        I like this, but I have a feeling my brain is going to read that as “hey liver, get ready for some beer.”

        1. Natalie*

          This may or may not be helpful – I love beer, and it also often features heavily in my initial “be nice to yourself” reaction. But I did dry January this year (or I guess I’m doing dry January as I have a few more days) and I found that other non-alcohol beverages could have a similar effect if I used them in a similar way. So coffee or sparkling water, which I drink all day, didn’t work. But when I started having fancy tonic water on the rocks with some bitters right after work, I built similar associations with it and it started to feel as relaxing as a beer after work. YMMV of course.

    3. Future Analyst*

      I don’t have advice, I’m in the same boat. :( I’ve tried avoiding all news sources during the day, and any discussions about political/news events, but I work in immigration, so it’s literally unavoidable some days.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I really try to just recognize that life is complex and involves a lot of emotions and modes.

      Not everything in life is happy. Not everything in life is sad. I can be just as depressed about what’s going on (won’t get into specifics here, obviously) while also being happy about the good things that are happening in the world and in my friends’ personal lives. Likewise, I can just say “work is work” and make work about work and not about what’s going on in the government or in my personal life or the lives of my friends.

      Of course, that psychological trick might not work for you. Not offering as advice, just a perspective.

    5. Spills*

      This is hard. I am more involved in current political events than ever before. I totally agree, and I am finding recent events so overwhelming. I want to tune out, but also feel like I can’t tune out now, and just let things happen. My only advice would be to find like-minded friends who you can discuss struggles with…it has been helping me to vent.

    6. Ally A*

      I’ve been trying to really limit my exposure to news/media during the work day. I don’t want to disengage entirely, as I think it’s super important right now to be informed, but I am not checking facebook or twitter during the day at all – especially in the morning before work so I’m not distracted from the get go. I’m ignoring emails from action groups I’m a part of and dealing with it all after work – however, I’m in a place where I don’t have to work much outside of my normal work hours, this may not be feasible if you’re working long hours or taking work home with you! Then, to keep myself from not sleeping at night, I’ve been listening to fiction podcasts (loving The Bright Sessions) right before I go to sleep to clear my head and stop focusing on all the negative news. I would also say that I have a strong deny and ignore impulse that is serving me well during the work day. I’m pretty good at pushing things back and ignoring them – which is usually not a good thing.

    7. Spoonie*

      I avoid social media and try to steer any conversations about DreadedTopic away to the latest episode of Show A (or something totally opposite). I also utilize the look at lots of pictures of puppies, walk the dogs/go to the dog park, etc. Find my happy place and stay there as much as possible. Hot baths work for that too, and they have the happy side effect of helping with my shoulder tightness that goes haywire when I’m super stressed.

      1. Bonky*

        I oversee our social media team at work. This stuff is really tough to avoid. I am spending much more of my downtime reading, playing the piano and obsessing about being pregnant than I would usually: I’m normally working much more when I’m not officially “at work”.

    8. emma*

      Getting off facebook has helped me. And taking walks! And trying not to stay abreast of every single issue.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Yeah, I strapped on the spiked shoes and went for a run in the mountains last night that made me feel amazing, even though it was icy and I fell on my butt a few times.

      2. PK*

        Leaving Facebook was a huge help for me. I deactivated about 3 weeks before election day and still haven’t reactivated. From what I hear from my friends, it’s gotten a bit crazy with the politics and I was already really overwhelmed from the constant exposure. It’s made it a lot easier to decompress from everything (although a bit of a pain for social event planning!)

    9. Anon13*

      I have no advice, either, but I also wanted to commiserate. It’s been difficult for me to focus on much of anything for the same reason.

      I’ve been trying not to think about it during the work day, but it’s really difficult. To top it off, the nature of my job is such that I’m nearly always effectively “on call” – I would never need to physically be in the office during off hours, but I’m expected to regularly check my phone, etc. It makes it more difficult for me to separate the different facets of my life.

    10. Lemon Zinger*

      Other commenters have offered great advice. For me, limiting social media has been helpful. I try to come home from work and totally detach from social media. I do this by plugging my phone in in the bedroom and not checking it at all, so I have time to read/watch shows/cook/whatever without the distraction of my phone.

      I’m in the same boat as you… it’s been a really hard week. Hang in there! *internet hug*

    11. Observer*

      In addition to what the others have said, can you take a “the best revenge is living well” type of attitude? Or “don’t let the idiots rents space in your head?”

    12. Anon This Time*

      My father has a saying. “Things are never as bad as you fear or as good as you hope. They’re always somewhere in the middle.”

    13. LKW*

      Media avoidance is a great strategy. As is taking care of yourself. Although it would stretch you a bit thin – consider volunteer opportunities. Sometimes contributing/helping others is a great way to be a part of the change you want and reminds you of what’s most important.

    14. animaniactoo*

      I tend to take the line that I need to a) step up my own engagement in political activity to try and have influence – even if that just means getting info out about some stuff, challenging a view somewhere, giving a personal opinion in support, and b) do my job because it is my way of contributing towards the future that I want to see. My work will be needed on the other side of all this mess*, so me getting it done, is part of my way of pushing back and not giving up.

      *It may not be the most “necessary” job, but it is necessary to the continued health and profit line of my company which therefore helps keep my co-workers, etc. employed.

    15. Mustache Cat*

      Maybe if you decide to take one action per day on politics, you can take off the edge from that frustration and set yourself up for productivity? I always feel better after I’ve done something, even if it’s a small act.

    16. Biff*

      Take action! If you don’t like what is going on, write your representatives! Give it to them from both barrels, but very politely. I feel much better after making sure I’ve written a great letter of dissent. I feel like I’m not just getting washed downstream in a torrent of bad news. I also write when I’m happy about something, because I get to be happy about it all over again. It works for me, it might work for you!

      1. nonprofit fun*

        Seconded! I’ve also found it difficult to focus lately because of the news, but doing small things here and there to help in my community has made me feel productive instead of helpless. I used five minutes of my lunch break yesterday to call my congressional representatives and felt so much better afterwards. Even taking on a low-commitment, non-partisan volunteer opportunity can help. As far as taking care of yourself goes, make sure you’re getting enough sleep & exercise, take breaks from social media, don’t be afraid to seek professional mental health counseling if you need it. My own therapist listens to me rant about politics regularly, LOL.

    17. Jbern*

      Get off the Facebook! Seriously! And don’t read opinion pieces or commentaries. Or the comments section of a news article. I went Facebook-free about a year ago, and though it occasionally makes me sad that I’ve not kept in touch with certain friends (my fault!), my blood pressure and reactionary thoughts have decreased dramatically.

      FWIW, I see a lot of problems with how news is reported in the largest newspapers. Lately, there seems to be a lot of anxiety that is leaking into the reporting. Once I recognized that, I’ve settled down some.

    18. the_scientist*

      I feel you, and I’m in a different country! I am putting myself on a self-imposed media blackout strategy, really limiting the media that I’m engaging with. I’m also taking extra time for mindfulness and other activities to help alleviate anxiety. Lots of fresh air, reading (fiction), adult colouring, journalling, exercising and trying out new recipes.

      I also find that a great way to combat feelings of powerlessness is to engage (paradoxically)- but I mean like, truly engage, not just passively engage on social media. I’m supporting a March for Science in my home city. I signed up to volunteer with a scientific literacy organization, signed petitions and donated to some of their current campaigns. I also donated financially to reproductive rights organizations. Taking concrete actions, even small ones are really helpful for me, and these activities are also giving me something to look forward to.

    19. Emmie*

      I have the same issue. I can’t seem to pull myself away from the media and Facebook. So, I picked a few things I’m really passionate about in the news and I’ve been going to the source. The President signed an immigration executive order. I go and read that. Then, when I’m tempted to watch the media or read posts, I have an understanding of the facts. I hope at some point, I’ve read enough of the facts personally on issues that matter to me that I’m able to judge which media outlets and which people are relying on facts, and I’ll be able to adjust my browsing accordingly. Other people disconnect and there’s tremendous value and detriment in that. This is what currently works for me. Good luck in whatever you decide.

    20. Rachel*

      Right after the election I did a complete media blackout. Since I find I focus better with bits of distraction to break up the day, I made sure I had none news links readily accessible, so I wasn’t tempted by the news sites.

    22. Elizabeth West*

      I just used work time as politics-free time during the election. While at work, I avoided talking about it, thinking about it, and reading about it. Hopefully your workplace doesn’t have a lot of people talking about it all the time.

    23. Marisol*

      Pushing forward is sometimes a necessary evil, but it’s ultimately more productive to experience the negative feelings fully so that you can move on from them. Otherwise, they linger and affect your life in ways you are not aware of. (“What you resists, persists.”) If you can find friends to bitch with, or spend a few evenings crying it out, really getting everything out, you’ll feel better in the long run and be way more productive. One thing that helps me move through emotions is EFT tapping. I do it on the commute home from work a few days a week. You talk about your issue while tapping on acupressure points–it sounds goofy but I always find it works for me. There’s lots of info about it online if you google. That, and a technique called “Spring Cleaning” as taught by Regina Thomashauer (also googleable) have worked miracles for me. Good luck!

    24. Not So NewReader*

      The pelican and the frog. There was a motivational poster in the 70s that showed a frog halfway down the pelican’s throat. The frog reaches out and chokes the bird. Because the frog is in the bird’s mouth the frog cannot see that he is WINNING. The caption is “never ever give up”.

      What we do when we feel down/cornered/etc can change how our lives play out. Like that frog, we can’t always tell when we are winning. I have been able to keep myself bumping along by saying “Wouldn’t it be a crock of crap if X never became a problem but I failed to do y and z because I was so worried about X?”

      Look at what is right in your life and strive to keep that going well.
      Look at what you CAN fix in your life and work to make it better. (This involves our willingness to stop staring at what we cannot fix. I know sometimes I catch myself staring at the unfixable.)
      Next look around. Is there someone next to you who needs a hand? You know,when we feel overwhelmed helping another person can make us feel empowered.

      Granted we can’t rise above it all everyday. But when you do, take pride, be proud of yourself for continuing on in a proactive manner. Tell yourself, “I am that frog. I am winning here.”

    25. dr_silverware*

      1. Reserve an hour a week for some time to work on politics. IE calling reps, getting up to speed, political action, whatever.
      2. Do as much media blackout as you can.
      3. When you come across something that’s terrible and sad, write it down and save it for your allotted politics time. A lot of activism these days, all they want is your attention, attention, attention. And it feels bad to not give the attention they’re asking for. So then you’re stuck feeling bad if you look at the thing, and stuck feeling bad if you look past the thing. Save it for later & a defined time when you can deal with it, and keep yourself focused in the flow of the rest of your life.

    26. LittleLove*

      I work for a newspaper so avoiding the news is out for me. VERY stressful and it keeps getting worse. Wishing both of us luck.

    28. saddesklunch*

      I echo what everyone has said about getting off facebook, or at least limiting it severely. Also turning off push notifications on my news apps has really really helped me.

    29. Jenna*

      I know it’s unheard of for anyone on this site and others to be happy in a political way right now, but I am. Very happy! And I guess I’m surprised that people are still so depressed, upset, etc. At what point do you think people will finally get over it and see that the sky isn’t actually falling? To be so upset that you’re actually depressed, can’t move on in life, can’t function- I just don’t get it.

        1. Jenna*

          But the new administration has said, even before the election, that the end of Obamacare would coincide with the institution of the new insurance plan, so no one should be without insurance. And even with Obamacare, people are without insurance. Many people’s premiums went way up and they can’t afford it anymore, and I know people whose doctors won’t accept the plan so they have to pay for everything out of pocket. They don’t know how much longer they’ll be able to do that. But I don’t think insurance is what’s distressing everyone. I don’t think it was what made thousands of college students need play doh therapy (!), excused absences from exams or therapy dogs. I think everyone needs to calm down and give the new administration a chance.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Jenna, it sounds like you have been reading fake news, which is probably why you’re confused about why people are horrified and upset! I recommend that you read something reliable like the New York Times or Washington Post.

            (And of course we haven’t even touched on what will happen to refugees, many black and brown people, the long-term effects on the environment, the willingness to lie, the bullying of less powerful people, the disrespect for our institutions and democracy, the anti-semitism, the willingness to act rashly without understanding of consequences, and on and on. If you honestly don’t understand why so many people are profoundly distressed and scared, I think it would help to do more reading in mainstream news sources.)

            I know I’ve asked to keep it politics-free here and I am obviously not abiding by that with this comment, but I can’t host your comments here without responding (which is part of the reason I’ve made that rule — so we can avoid this).

            2. Observer*

              Oh, there is plenty of fake news to go around ON BOTH SIDES.

              And, a lot of the protests have nothing to do with stuff like insurance, which does have the potential to really hurt people.

              The only other item I’m going to address is the issue of antisemitism. I’m sick and tired of the notion that the Democrats are great and Trump is an antisemite. The evidence is, in fact, the reverse. Trump buddies up with anyone who he thinks will be useful to him, but he’s never engaged in antisemitic behavior. The only person he’s embraced that’s presented a problem is Steve Bannon. The only thing that we have heard about him is an allegation that may or may not be true. (I’m not defending the man in general, I am speaking SPECIFICALLY AND ONLY about antisemitism.)

              On the other hand, the Democratic party in general, and Hillary Clinton in particular, have embraced anti-semites and anti-semitism. Sure, if you can “pass” and work for Demorcrat Party causes, they’ll look the other way, but still. That’s not just hot air.

              Hillary Clinton *hugged* Suha Arafat when Ms. Arafat made a speech in which she lobber one of the oldest blood libels in the book – that Jews poison the wells. I’m not kidding. The speech was in public, there were translators, and Mrs. Clinton walked over to Mrs. Arafat and hugged and kissed her. She never apologized for it, although she did claim afterwards that she didn’t understand the speech.

              Al Sharpton has been a player who has been courted by the Democratic Party for years, even though he is responsible for 4 deaths, one attempted murder and mayhem that I don’t even have a decent estimate for through his sntisemitic rhetoric and direct incitement. He should have been prosecuted, but neither the Democrat Party mayor or governor were interested in anything of the sort, because it would have put too much spotlight on what happened there. The mess only stopped when Ray Kelly decided to take action and do something – and he only stepped in because he was tired of seeing police being hurt and humiliated. (I don’t blame him! Just, realize that even there, the key was not any concern for the Jewish population that was at risk.)

              Commissioner Brown did pay a bit of a price, because his obeisance to the black mob also led to ~150 cops being hurt (though mostly not seriously, fortunately.) Dinkins might have recovered, except that he also allowed some other hugely racist stuff to happen on his watch (google the Korean Boycott for an example of allowing a police department to flout the law on a racial basis.)

              Sharpton never paid any price for this. He never apologized. He has never abandoned his antisemitism. The party that embraces him has NO standing to complain about antisemitism.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                He ran ads using widely known antisemitic dog whistles and imagery.

                I’m not the Democratic party, so whether they do or don’t have standing to complain about antisemitism doesn’t feel like the point to me.

                1. Observer*

                  When people who complain about antisemitism have turned a blind eye to worse for decades, it IS the point. I get that a lot of people have legitimate worries. But there is a lot of puffery and hypocrisy as well, which just exaggerates the issues, as well as minimizing them to people who see the hypocrisy.

                  There is a reason why the protest vote was as large as it was this year, despite candidates that were jaw droppingly flawed – the worst I can remember, tbh, and that there was such a drop in voter turn out.

                  I started worrying the day it became clear who our candidates were going to be.

          2. Former Urban Achiever*

            If you look into the proposed plans you will see none of them will fix the issues people have with the ACA and all of them will leave a substantial amount of people worse off than they are now. Also, many people who are still uninsured are because they live in states that did not expand Medicaid. This is not the fault of the ACA and the proposed plans include block grants that will leave people worse off because the funding will be less and based on current funding. Which means non expansion states will be hit the hardest. Repeal is also going to cost many people to lose their jobs, me included. So you can be hyperbolic in your characterization of college students (I teach part time and nothing like that happened at my school, which isn’t proof but an indicator that you’re assertion isn’t accurate) and poke fun but there are many people who are upset for very valid reasons. I apologize if this isn’t the time or place for this, but being dismissive of people’s concerns and belittling them isn’t helping anyone’s cause.

            1. Observer*

              That’s really not true – the plans range from terrible to not much more than a rebranding. It’s way to early to say what will happen.

            2. Observer*

              Oh, and given that some of the plans really are pretty bad, people really do have a chance to make a difference here since this is going to need Congress. It makes sense to flood your congress person(s) with postcards saying “Please do NOT vote for Plan x.” if you have any sense that they would possibly vote for it.

      2. Not A Morning Person*

        And are you factoring in that there were still people angry over having a Democrat as president for two terms? Some folks didn’t “get over it” for more than 8 years!

    30. nep*

      Be determined not to let negative people and forces drain your power. Take it as motivation to do better, be better.

  9. Bewildered Anon*

    I just started working at a company where the CEO’s very young right hand man – essentially the COO in all but title – has slept with dozens (like over 20 in the past couple years) of younger female employees. He’s currently in a relationship with one of them. Yet no one else in the company has even bat an eyelash at this! He has a huge part in deciding promotions, bonuses, etc., and I feel totally uncomfortable knowing that the budget for my department’s bonuses might be split up based on what sort of relationship he has with other employees* (and also that he uses the company as hunting ground for sexual partners – ew!).

    We have no formal HR department – he acts as the head of HR – and I get the sense that the CEO is already aware of his relationship and just doesn’t care. Moreover, most employees seem to love him – many of them go out partying together and are clearly a very close-knit friend group (it’s a young company where most employees are under 30 years old, and for many it’s their first job out of college).

    Am I crazy for thinking that a) this behavior is wildly inappropriate for someone in such a high position and b) it’s bewildering that everyone else in the company is OK with this? Are my only options for handling this to either turn a blind eye to his behavior or to find a new job elsewhere?

    *One might hope that he would be able to separate his personal bias/feelings towards employees when making decisions in these situations, however, knowing him, I don’t think he would.

    1. Professor Moriarty*

      You are not crazy. That is crazy! I would feel super uncomfortable in your position but I don’t think you have any good options.

      2. Lemon Zinger*

        Yep. This company is wildly dysfunctional if this guy is in charge of so much high-level stuff. Time to find a new job.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      That sounds like a total train wreck. I would just bide my time, encourage anyone I know who might be being sexually harassed to document everything (not to report to “HR” but for any future potential lawsuit), and quietly look to jump ship at the next available opportunity.

      Also, how close is the COO to the CEO? Any chance the CEO could be appealed to, or are they best buddies?

    5. PK*

      Not crazy and wildly inappropriate. Unfortunately, I don’t think you’ll have many options here. I worked in a very similar ‘college frat bro’ atmosphere where something like this wouldn’t have gotten a second thought. In the end, I grew out of the place pretty quickly as it came with a whole host of issues (and a pretty unprofessional leadership structure). The culture just wasn’t a good fit for me. That may be the case for you as well.

    6. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      This is wildly unprofessional, but take heart; it’s going to backfire spectacularly. Have emergency popcorn ready and enjoy the show.

    7. Soupspoon McGee*

      It sounds like a culture that is not big on professionalism and appropriate boundaries. Use that information to decide whether you should stay or go, but you can’t change it. The inevitable EEOC finding or lawsuit probably won’t change it.

    8. Liz2*

      Fascinated to see what happens over the next 10 years as they turn into full adults (sure legally they are already but we all know the difference).

    9. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      This reminds me of Alison’s “Your employer sucks and isn’t going to change” articles. I think it’s time to start looking.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Dan Savage, the sex/relationship columnist, has said several times that he could answer most of his calls and emails with “DTMFA” – “dump the MFer already.” I feel like Alison could probably do the same with YESAIGTC, though that doesn’t quite roll off the keyboard the same way.

    10. starsaphire*

      I have two pieces of advice for you:

      1. Polish up your resume, and get out as fast as you can.

      2. Take copious notes (omitting names!) and start a novel or screenplay. Because this level of drama is something no one needs in their real lives, but something we’d all love to watch on TV.

    11. LKW*

      Not crazy at all. This is a disaster waiting to happen. It doesn’t matter whether he’s unbiased, the point is perception of everyone else involved. What happens when someone with whom he has slept with gets promoted. What will be the reactions of the woman he’s currently dating and the woman(en) who either slept with him previously or haven’t slept with him yet or the men and women who aren’t part of his dating pool aren’t promoted. Sheesh.

    12. Bewildered Anon*

      Thanks, everyone, for your comments – it’s so good to hear that I’m not the only one who thinks this is wrong!

      Part of my issue is that I’m not super keen on leaving the job since I’ve been there for under a year. Given my job history, I worry it’ll make me look like a job-hopper if I leave. Is it worth sticking this job out? If so, do I take a “if you can’t beat ’em, join em!’ sort of approach (go drinking with COO and coworkers, etc.), or is there anything else I can/should do to make it the situation more tolerable?

      Definitely liked the idea of grabbing some popcorn and enjoying the show, or writing a novel! As is probably pretty evident by this situation, there is a TON of drama within the company!

      1. RVA Cat*

        Network, network, network to find a place that doesn’t have this kind of drama. Meanwhile, try find someone with status at your company who isn’t part of the Duck Club for a potential mentor or reference.

        Follow your gut when it comes to hanging out with the COO and his groupies. Maybe offer to be the designated driver?

        1. Mirax*

          I would not DD in an environment like that because it looks like tacitly condoning the activities. And while I’m not sure it could be held against you legally, I would hate to hear something like, “Why did you let me go home with X? You saw how drunk I was!” from the COO’s prey later.

          1. Uzumaki Naruto*

            Yeah, DO NOT hang out with them socially. That could have repercussions for your standing with these people, but these people are wildly unprofessional and you are trying to find a new job elsewhere with grown-ups.

      2. Jenbug*

        At OldJob, there was a higher up who was sleeping with two different women at the same time. He sent them both flowers and they found out that they were both sleeping with him. They ended up being best friends.

        There was a lot of drama at OldJob.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        You could start looking now with the idea that you can be kind of selective and having an overall plan of being out in x time frame.

        I will caution you, when there is corruption at the top, that corruption trickles down through the company. Try not to get caught up in their nonsense/lies/etc yourself.

      4. Too old for this sht*

        Maybe you could appoint yourself your office’s Secret Speaker to Newbies?

        I am old enough to remember the days when we didn’t even have any anti-sexual harrassment legislation. Back then, pretty much every workplace I went to as a young baby worker had a Speaker to Newbies. Usually an older woman, she (or several women, in the really bad workplaces!) would come over in my first few days, drag me off to a quiet corner or the ladies room, and give me The List: who to avoid at all costs, who was a creep, who was ‘unhappily married’, which ones were running a literal scoreboard/betting pool, etc. and what tactics or sob stories they’d try to use.

        I mean, some other newbies sometimes went for one of these creeps anyway, but at least they knew what they were getting into and the rest of us were less likely to be lied to, tricked, or trapped.

        It is a risky thing to do — sleazeballs won’t like it if they find out — but if you think the risk is worth it, maybe taking action like that could help you with the ethics of having to work with sleazeballs?

        2. Elizabeth H.*

          This seems pretty unpleasant to me. These people are adults – they can sleep with whomever they want for whatever reason. Even if some other people think it’s inadvisable to date or sleep with coworkers not everyone feels that way. There is no evidence that this guy is sexually assaulting anyone, maybe he is really appealing to women for whatever reason. I think the idea of warning new girls about him as if they can’t come to a conclusion with their own brains to be kind of paternalistic and gross.

          1. JHunz*

            It’s absolutely inappropriate for someone to be sleeping with anyone whose compensation they have a say in. It’s a conflict of interest, it puts financial pressure on anyone who chooses to turn down the advances, and it’s ethically bankrupt.

          2. Observer*

            There is a good deal of evidence that this guy is using his position in inappropriate ways. Given that reality, giving people a heads up as to what they are likely to be dealing with is perfectly appropriate. After that, it’s their choice.

            1. Elizabeth H.*

              Regardless of how appropriate or inappropriate HIS behavior is, I still find it really condescending and paternalistic to act like you need to protect the helpless young girls by warning them lest they accidentally be seduced. The guy is maybe a huge creep and behaving inappropriately but HIS behavior and your colleagues’ reactions to him are separate things. If you have a problem with his behavior, speak to him, his manager, HR etc. I would be really offended if someone tried to warn me about a “lecherous colleague,” especially if they took it on themselves as part of some kind of “den mom” type thing. Like, oh, if only someone had warned me first, I wouldn’t have accidentally slept with this guy? Better to assume that your colleagues can take care of themselves and their own choices.

      5. Natalie*

        You can always start looking – for one, you are never under any obligation to take an offered job, so you can bide your time and really look hard for a place that is a good fit, where you can stay for a while. And for two, if you do the first thing it could take you months to find another position, so you might as well start your search now.

      6. Observer*

        1. Do NOT become part of the culture. If you do, you will become complicit in this, and it will warp you and your perceptions of normal. That’s NOT a good thing. Also, if you are anywhere nearby when the *** hits the fan the fact that you are good buddies means that you are going to get caught it in the blow up. You can be sure that these people are NOT going to have your backs. And, even if you do, it might not help.

        2. I would document what’s going on – but NOT AT WORK, and NOT on ANY equipment that your employer might have access to. It might come in handy.

        3. Network your head off. If something comes your way, you should take it.

        4. Give yourself a deadline when you start looking. I’d say at the 18 month mark, unless things get worse (which they could). At that point, you won’t look that flighty and the problems with this job really sound like they start to outweigh that issue.

    13. Just Jess*

      A) This behavior is a liability and B) it sounds like there are a lot of people in your company who are young and want the “fun.” It’s part of the culture and doesn’t sound that surprising given the age of the COO and a majority of the employees. This reminds me of that story about the clampdown at Zenefits last year.

      I try not to make any judgments about how people hook up, but yeah, take gender, age, etc. out of it and the acting head of HR and operations shouldn’t be sleeping with employees.

    14. CrazyEngineerGirl*

      Get out. Nothing good can come of this. There will eventually be repercussions, whether they are to the company, the ‘COO’, or the employees.

      There is a woman at my company that the Big Boss had a short fling with while on a ‘break’ with the woman he has since married. Fling-woman is basically incompetent at her job, something for which all the rest of us suffer, but has become un-fireable in the eyes of Big Boss. I guess he fears her suing him, everyone/his wife finding out, etc.

      Point is, his behavior/choices will most definitely have an impact on you and your job there at some point, especially with the scale of it all!

    17. Bonky*

      Oh, yuk. I think you have to consider whether the culture at this place is something you want to have to put up with: it’s nigh-on impossible to turn a blind eye (or at least it would be for me), and it’s not behaviour you’re going to be able to change. Your instinct that looking elsewhere might be a good idea is a good one.

  10. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    How long should you wait for a promised promotion before seeking greener pastures? It’s been dangled in front of me for a year now, but there’s always something – usually “budget considerations” – that puts it off. I’m already doing the work of the job description I’ve been promised, just at a lower position’s pay.

    1. Sunflower*

      You should definitely be looking now. Remember- just because you’re looking at, or even offered, other jobs doesn’t mean you have to take them.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      I’d your boss one more time about the specific steps/timeline for making the promotion happen and see what she says. And I’d start looking elsewhere in the meantime. Maybe that promotion (and presumably a raise) comes along, and maybe it doesn’t.

      1. NotAnotherManager!*

        If you like and want to stay at your current job, this is what I’d do. If you’re ready for a change, you can skip the talking to your boss part. :)

    3. Anonymous Poster*

      I started looking at a year, since the process generally still takes awhile. You can always stop if things materialize, but you also can’t put your career on hold forever.

      There’s a lot more that enters into it, like are you happy in general, etc., so it’s hard to say in your specific situation. But I wouldn’t think you unusual for looking after a year.

    4. emma*

      It doesn’t hurt to look. If you end up getting an offer and still want to say, you can let them know that you have the offer, which may make them make good on their promises. But if it doesn’t, you’ll still have a hopefully higher offer!

    5. PK*

      Look now. I spent 8 years with a company that dangled the ‘promotion is right around the corner’ carrot in front of my face for the last 3 years I was there. I stayed out of misplaced loyalty and still kick myself for wasting time. The experience let me jump off into a much better place but I could have done it a lot earlier if I didn’t wait.

      1. Bend & Snap*

        Exactly my situation at my last job.

        My promotion was finally approved 15 minutes before I quit so it was an interesting resignation.

      2. AnonAnalyst*

        YES. I’m in this situation now and I am *so mad* at myself for continuing to wait it out because I truly believed for 2 years that the promotion was “just about to happen.” I’m cutting my losses and moving on this spring (even though, according to my company, the promotion is still thisclose to happening).

      3. KR*

        Similar experience. A few weeks after I gave notice my full time position was approved for the next year’s budget along with a significant pay increase. It was a great opportunity but it was just too late especially since I had been telling my boss for over a year that the current arrangement wasn’t working for me.

    6. Artemesia*

      Sometimes deciding you have had enough and starting to look changes the way you come across. The confidence that comes from being decisive about this projects. So without mentioning you are looking (and don’t do that absolutely, don’t) you may appear more valuable and competitive and end up getting what you want anyway. I’d be deciding to leave and searching and probably take a good offer even if these people came back with a counter offer.

      A friend’s son ran a non-profit for years at truly pathetic wages and was rebuffed by the board for a raise. He had an offer elsewhere that doubled his salary and suddenly the board had no trouble meeting that and offering more. A business that refuses to reward you until you are out the door should not hold your loyalty. A year is enough; they are yanking you around because they figure you have nowhere to go. Find somewhere to go and don’t look back.

      1. Newby*

        Yep. If it takes an offer from somewhere else to get your raise, you probably don’t want to stick around because it will just happen again.

        1. Rachel*

          One of my best friends has been working for a company for years where that is apparently the policy, at least for certain positions. The company is aware that they are underpaying legacy employees, who were hired when the market was down and whose pay was never increased more then 3% per year (the result for my friend is that her pay is about $10k under market value). Her supervisor told her flat out that the only was she would get the raise she wanted was if she brought them a job offer from another company.

          She’s been there probably 6 years and works 60 plus hour weeks since basically day one (including answering the phone nights and weekends). She has finally started looking for a new job.

    7. Trout 'Waver*

      If you’re already doing the work, they have no incentive to pay you more. Don’t get paid in promises. The whole do the job before getting paid for the job thing is bullshit. I would start looking for another job.

    8. neverjaunty*

      You shouldn’t. They have no incentive to ever keep this promise. Paying you less money to do more IS a “budget consideration”.

    9. Ann Furthermore*

      Start looking now. Chances are it’s never going to happen. I spent way too long at my last job waiting for a promotion that was not exactly promised, but not exactly denied either. I specifically asked my boss, on a number of occasions, “What specifically do I need to accomplish to move up to the next level?” and I never got a straight answer. I’d get promises that we’d talk about it, and the most concrete feedback I ever got was, “You’re heading in the right direction.” At my last performance review, there was the same old stuff about how I wasn’t quite ready, and I finally understood that the only way it would ever happen — which was very unlikely as promotions company-wide had pretty much stopped for anyone not a direct employee of the parent company — was to just say, “Thank you!” with a big smile on my face and bend over, no matter what happened, and no matter how horribly people behaved or treated me and/or my co-workers. That’s just not in my DNA, so I made the difficult decision to move on.

      It took me about 6 months to find a new job, and I’m about 3 months in. I’m so happy I made the change. I spent 12 years at my last company, and about 10 of them were pretty great — I had awesome co-workers, a really cool, flexible, and hands-off manager, every new project challenged me and helped me grow my skill set, and as an added bonus I got to go to Europe 3-5 times a year and traveled to places I probably never would have gone to otherwise. Then the old CEO was forced out, and replaced with this awful draconian corporate overlord type who was hell bent on slashing costs and (I’m convinced) making people so miserable that they’d quit, and save money on the severance they’re going to pay when they outsource everyone’s jobs in the next year or 2.

      So…start looking now. You’ll feel better for doing something to control the situation, instead of waiting around for someone else to make a decision. And if you do find something and you’re offered the promotion after you resign, think carefully before accepting. A good friend of mine at that same last employer was in a similar situation. She was told that she’d never advance any further, so she found another job and resigned. All of a sudden, they were willing to give her a promotion and a huge raise, but she turned it down. The CFO asked her why, because it had been a very generous offer, and her response was, “Why did it take me resigning for everyone to all of a sudden realize how valuable I am?” He had no good answer.

      1. AnonAnalyst*

        The last part about your friend is really what hit home for me. The promotion that I was promised 2 years ago has started to look like it might actually come to fruition this year, but at this point it’s too little, too late.

        Moreover, I have realized that this is what it will be like every time I want to advance in this company, and I just don’t have the time or the patience for that at this point in my career.

      2. SomeoneLikeAnon*

        Good point about your friend’s situation!

        It’s kinda like negotiating a car price, if I’m walking out the door and the vendor offers an even lower price, how can I trust it’s a good value.

    10. Michelle the Editor*

      I was just in this situation. Had been waiting for about a year, and was starting to apply for a few things. Had a pleasant surprise when the promotion finally did come through.

      Start applying now—if it does happen, that’s great! But if it doesn’t, at least you won’t be kicking yourself for not getting out sooner. Good luck!

    11. Wink*

      At my company promotions & pay raises & changing benefits are tricky. I’ve had employees ask for these types of things, and sometimes it’s just bad timing due to other stuff going on.

      I know the normal recommendation is to not tell your boss you’re looking for another job. But I think this depends on the relationship with your boss. If you can make it clear (without directly saying it) that if this promotion doesn’t materialize you will certainly be seeking other opportunities, that is what I would suggest.

    12. Fish Microwaver*

      I’m sorry this is happening to you. I am in a similar situation and it sucks. While I wasn’t exactly promised the promotion, I was encouraged to apply and sat down with my boss to create an action plan to achieve the goals. It is only a title bump as they already have to pay me at that rate because of my qualifications. It has dragged on for a year so when I return from vacation I will start looking.

    13. SomeoneLikeAnon*

      You should be looking now. I understand that companies often have to worry about profit or a bottom line, but if they’ve expressed they were or wanted to promote you then didn’t, it says to me that they are undereally valuing your skill set. Knowing your worth more but not compensating you for it.

  11. Berry*

    Here’s an interesting experience I’ve had lately: jobs outrightly looking for “nice” people. I saw at least one posting where at the bottom of what they were looking for it said “we only hire nice people,” and had an interview a few days back where the interviewer/person I would be working directly for point blank asked me “are you a nice person?” (My response was “I like to think so,” I was a bit caught off guard.)

    On the other hand, I’m yearning to get out of my office where my coworkers are always talking about each other behind their backs so screening for nice people sounds a bit appealing, however wishful it is.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        As stated, yes it’s fluffy and worthless. I’m a fan of Bob Sutton’s The No Asshole Rule, and in it, there are examples of companies that screen for people who are assholes. But you can’t just ask “are you a nice person?” you have to have them talk about scenarios where they didn’t get along with people, had a difficult time with a boss or an employee, etc. Have other people in the organization interview them, find out if they’re mean/rude/dismissive of the admin person, etc.

        1. Not The Droid You Are Looking For*

          I worked for a culture focused company that actively looked for nice people. But we never asked, “are you nice?” Who is going to say no???

          Junior staff member interviews are a great way to accomplish this, as are mixed level interviews.

          1. S-Mart*

            Plenty of people will say no. You won’t catch all (even most?) of the not nice people by asking, but I’ve known plenty who would happily tell you that no, they weren’t a nice person (and they were right!).

        2. Bonky*

          Ha – I’ve not heard of Bob Sutton, but at my company we have the same rule, but it’s called DHW among those of us who hire. (Don’t Hire Weird.)

      3. Lily in NYC*

        I’ve noticed this kind of thing a lot before – where the ad will say something very specific, like “no drama wanted” or “you must be nice” and I’ve always assumed they had a bad experience with their last person in the position so they were projecting that in the ad. Probably not the best way to go about it.

    2. Sunflower*

      This is so weird it’s almost laughable.

      FWIW I think it’s kind of a red flag. Only hiring nice people could mean a lot of things like ‘we value getting along over doing what’s right’ or ‘not open to hearing new ideas’ or ‘it’s impossible to disagree with someone here’. It’s also possible they already have a miserable office and are looking to add ‘nice’ people into the mix. (also this could be a totally normal workplace with a bit of a fruity manager but just remember you’d still be working for her!)

      1. Berry*

        That specific interview was actually for a tiny husband/wife run company where I would be the first full time employee that wasn’t hired through someone they know, so all the work is really close together, and the question felt kind of justifiable (and also not totally serious). At the same time I doubt anyone would answer “no” to that question.

    3. Future Analyst*

      It seems as though they’re trying to screen for something else. Maybe “gets along well with others, and doesn’t create unnecessary drama.” If it comes up again, maybe ask “have you had trouble in the past with individuals who didn’t get along well with others?” or something similarly prompting. They may need to articulate it better for themselves…

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve seen ads with “We are a drama-free workplace” and “We don’t hire jerks.” “Looking for nice people” doesn’t have the same ring to it, but I understand what they are going for, even if they can’t articulate it in a more professional way.

      1. Berry*

        I’ve definitely seen it as a “hip” or startup-y trend – for instance Buzzfeed tends to add “(no haters)” to the end of their job postings.

      2. Temperance*

        When I see the word “drama”, I know everything I need to know about the person/org who is saying it. RUN.

        1. Manders*

          Yeah, the fact that they feel the need to mention it at all in a job posting says a lot about the kind of management you can expect there.

      3. Not The Droid You Are Looking For*

        I have the same reaction to this as I do to dating profiles where dudes include “no drama” in their bio – it instantly makes me think they are drama filled.

    5. Sadsack*

      I’m not sure the requests for nice people mean anything. I’ll bet your coworkers think they are nice people, too.

      1. MWKate*

        This would be my issue – different people define ‘nice’ and ‘mean’ very differently. I don’t considering myself an unkind person, but I’m not an especially warm person which some people define as not being nice.

    7. Merida May*

      This is just my experience, but the only occasions where I’ve ever been asked outright if I was a ‘nice person’ involved people who were working their way into a sales pitch or some line of pushy/invasive questioning. I’ll admit it’s never come up in an interview situation so I can’t speak to that, but if it did my mind would recall the occasion where a stranger showed up on my doorstep and greeted me by asking me if I was a nice person. While they insisted they weren’t selling anything they became very upset that I was unwilling to rattle off my credit card information for a magazine subscription three minutes later. It’s odd phrasing at best – there are better ways to assess culture fit, which I think is where they’re going with that. However, the cynic in me wonders why it’s so important for them to ask so directly right from the start.

        1. F.*

          Totally off topic, but my husband and I are watching our way through the Avengers seasons with Diana Rigg as Mrs. Peel. Some of the episodes are very weird, but most have been rather entertaining.

          1. mrs__peel*

            It’s a great favorite of mine (as you might have guessed!) The weirdness is a large part of why I love it so much.

    10. bridget*

      I’ve had interviews where potential employers tell me that they work very hard to cultivate a culture of kindness and respect regardless of how stressful the work situation might be (and it gets stressful). It’s both a sales pitch and an implied warning – we will not tolerate it if you are a person who can’t control his/her temper, so only take this job if you can live up to that. I appreciate this because it gives me insight into their culture, and it probably screens people out who know that they are the type of person who doesn’t see anything wrong with getting a snappy/irritable if the situation is difficult.

    11. Victoria, Please*

      In my profession it is absolutely necessary although completely insufficient that someone is in fact patient, warm, positive, easy-going, etc. So although I agree that “we only hire nice people” is kind of a silly way to put it, there may be a very good reason for such a hiring criterion.

    12. voluptuousfire*

      Chances are they’re looking for someone who is kind and empathetic and gets along with people but is putting it way too floofily.

    13. AFRC*

      Nice can mean so many things. Nice can mean “customer-service oriented,” or “pleasant to work with” or “doesn’t ask questions or push back on bad decisions in any way.” But it’s a terrible question, because who wouldn’t say yes?

    14. Chaordic One*

      I’m paranoid, I know, but I would really worry that what they might be looking for are passive “sheep” who will do whatever is asked of them, no matter how unreasonable, without every pushing back or standing up for themselves.

    15. Freya UK*

      I’ve never seen anything like that here – but if only my last job had put “People Pleasers Only” in the advert, I could’ve avoided 3 & a half years of being treated like I was The Worst Person Ever… *eyeroll*

    16. SomeoneLikeAnon*

      That’s such a weird question! I guess I would probably say “no, I’m a practical person.” Though I know that many people think I’m genuinely nice, I feel that nice often has the connotation of not rocking the boat. I’m more that comfortable being forceful in order to move projects forward; I don’t have to be rude to do this, imo, but people might have different opinions when it comes to holding people accountable.

      I would be curious to know what these interviewers think ‘nice’ means.

  12. slick ric flair*

    One of those “little things that doesn’t matter” pet peeves, but I’ve noticed a lot of people referencing GrandBosses and Great-Grand Bosses, etc lately. I heard someone reference it in real life and it was felt cringeworthy. So I’d recommend people not to do that.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Yeah, I don’t really like that term either, but I haven’t come up with a better reference that people understand right away…

      Confession: I used the phrase great-grandboss recently because someone got confused when I said “boss’s boss’s boss”.

      1. k*

        Yeah, unless someone comes up with a better system this seems to be the best way to easily be understood. Especially if talking about a place with many levels of management.

    4. Persephone Mulberry*

      I’m not a huge fan of it either, but I can see how people have adopted it as simpler than “my boss’s boss” or “my boss’s boss’s boss.” There’s just not a really good, workplace-oriented set of terms for that hierarchy.

      1. Liane*

        I like it a lot. It is not ideal, perhaps, and I wouldn’t call the manager 3 steps above me, “Great-grandboss” in front of her, unless SHE tells me “Call me Great-grandboss. I *hate* Cersei.” However, if you’re telling a story away from work or asking advice here, I think it is fine. You won’t have to explain your office’s odd hierarchy so Alison can give better advice.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          Of course you wouldn’t do it in person! And not even at your workplace, because it’s not necessary. People know if you’re on the Spout team that the Chief of Beverages would be your great-grand-boss (or whatever).

      1. Natalie*

        Yep, I always say Big Boss, or Ultimate Boss and Penultimate Boss if the circumstances call for it. But that latter one is just because I will use any excuse to say “penultimate”.

        1. Creag an Tuire*

          We could go full gamer and use: MiniBoss, Boss, SuperBoss, Penultimate Boss, and FINAL BOSS.

            1. Creag an Tuire*

              I suppose “My Final Boss’s second form” would be if your employer is acquired by another company.

              Otherwise, if your boss literally has multiple forms, you are the Doctor’s companion, in which case none of AAM’s advice really applies to you. Except the bit about avoiding cracks in time.

        2. Aims*

          Just a note, that many people don’t realize and seems to be the case here: Penultimate does not mean ‘greater than ultimate’ or ‘best of the best’, it actually means ‘second to last’ or ‘last but one in a series of things’. It is kind of a strange word/meaning combination and I understand how the mix-up happens, but it can come across as pretty *unintelligent* (not meaning this offensively. Most people use it thinking they’re using a big smart word, but then use it wrong, which nets the opposite effect they were going for).

          1. Marisol*

            If you lined up your bosses in a row by rank, then the boss that comes before the boss who ranks highest on the org chart would be the penultimate boss. Natalie’s usage is fine.

          2. Natalie*

            I’m well aware – penultimate boss would be my boss, say, and ultimate boss would be their boss.

          3. Horological*

            ‘Second to last’ in a reporting chain that starts with the person speaking is a perfectly viable use of the term penultimate. In fact, it’s the only one that makes sense (imo). To call the person directly above you your ultimate boss (and therefore their boss the ‘penultimate boss’) would be redundant, since we already have a term for that – boss. Therefore, any additional terms must stretch upwards (in the reporting chain) from there.

            This is true in most situations I can think of, such as ‘Ultimate showdown’ (because now I’ve got that song stuck in my head). Starting from your current position (just like in the reporting chain), that showdown is the one at the other end of a time period that includes showdowns. The fact that they also tend to refer to bigger/better things is simply an artifact of most people being at the bottom of a chain.

            No-one in this thread has misused the term penultimate.

      2. Karo*

        But is that your boss’s boss, or your boss’s boss’s boss, or someone higher up? If I hear “the big boss” I’d assume the highest person in the company.

      3. Venus Supreme*

        Yup. I have my boss, then my BigBoss. Anyone higher-up would be the SuperBigBoss or UberBoss. Luckily I don’t work for a big company that has a lot of levels.

    6. LCL*

      Put me in the ‘hate grandboss’ column. Because it seems infantilizing to me. But its not forbidden here so I don’t say anything to people that use it.
      It’s up to Alison what she will or won’t allow. She allows it, so I try to keep quiet about it. But since you posted, I had to jump in with a voice of support.

      1. J*

        I’ll back you up on this, too. I am not a fan of the term. But it’s an accepted part of the local slang, so it doesn’t make sense to grumble about it.

    8. Weak Trees*

      You know, I actually love it. I can see how it could seem a bit goofy, but it’s just so dang CLEAR. In a forum like this, where we don’t necessarily know or understand each other’s reporting structures, it’s just so much simpler to use one word than to invoke the infinite “boss” string EddieSherbert mentions.

    10. Jadelyn*

      Cringe at us all you like, but that’s your opinion and many of us find it a very useful term, so I’d recommend you not to police other people’s vocabulary when the situation doesn’t call for that.

      1. AliceBD*

        I only use it in online forums (here and in another forum I’m a part of). Anyone I speak to in real life about this sort of thing, like my family, knows the names of all involved, or at least enough names that I can can say something like “[Person A], who is [Person B]’s boss” because they know Person B.

    13. Tomato Frog*

      As someone who routinely tells family & friends stories that include mention of my boss’s boss and boss’s boss’s boss, I love these terms. People who have never heard it before understand what it means immediately. “Big boss” is useful for other circumstances but doesn’t convey their relationship to the speaker/commenter.

    14. CAA*

      In the professional world, I’ve always heard “2nd level manager”. This extends easily to “3rd level manager” and so on. This site is the only place I’ve ever seen “grandboss” used. I understand the meaning, but to me it’s kind of squicky and too familial.

    15. Creag an Tuire*

      I think it’s rarely necessary in real life but useful here, because getting into the actual finicky details of your reporting structure risks “outing” your place of employment, and we can’t have that.

    16. Mon Mon*

      When telling anecdotes, I usually call the really big bosses “the cheese tray”. Like…there are big cheeses and then there is the cheese tray. I don’t know why. But anecdotally, it amuses me and some of my friends! As in “I was in a meeting with the big cheeses and…dun Dun DUN…the cheese tray!”.

      1. bridget*

        Ha, interesting – if you didn’t explain it I’d assume you meant the opposite. Cheese tray is “under” the actual cheese and supports it, so I’d assume cheese tray = middle management.

        1. Chicken Little*

          That kind of fits with what I say. I tell people about the boss 1, 2 or 3 steps up the food chain from me

    17. Someone*

      I assume it’s the GrandBoss at Wakeen’s Chocolate Teapots and Rice Sculpture, home of the Duck Club. That’s just the tone here.

    18. Hilary Faye*

      Ha! It always reminds me of being in a sorority where you had your Big Sis, Grand Big, Great Grand Big, etc.

    22. Not So NewReader*

      It’s their cringe. Hang on to that thought. If someone chooses to embarrass themselves we do not have to wear their embarrassment.

      I think it’s fine right here as an informal where we need fake names anyway. It makes an easier read, “So, Grandboss told Great Grandboss to shut up”. I got that one on the first read, I don’t have to go back and piece out who Bob is and who Jane is to the the point of the sentence.

      1. Elsajeni*

        That’s a good point, in a storytelling context it’s a really useful stand-in — you don’t need to remember who Bob and Jane are, and it reduces the risk of pronoun confusion in a sentence like “my boss told her boss to shut up” (my boss’s own boss, or my-coworker-Judy-who-I-was-just-complaining-about’s boss, or…?).

    23. SomeoneLikeAnon*

      I work in the government and they use a labeled level structure, which is helpful. The highest of the high is the Alpha, then all the levels following are plus 1. So my boss is A+5, meaning I’m 5 levels removed from the Grand Poobah.

  13. soanonforthis*

    thoughts on people “working from home” to care for a sick child or spouse? one of my coworker has missed the better part of two weeks to do this and it’s really starting to piss me off.

    1. ThatGirl*

      Any time anyone is working from home but not actually getting their work done, it’s frustrating. But I don’t think that’s limited to sick kid/spouse. I think a little leeway is fine – I’ve had work from home days when I had to deal with an unexpected flat tire, for instance – but this person should probably take some PTO if their child or spouse needs that much attention.

    2. Leatherwings*

      I actually think it’s really important to let people do this. I can imagine that it would be really important to be there for a sick person just so they’re not alone and don’t have to make their own juice and lunch and have someone remind them they need to take their antibiotics on time. Assuming the boss is okay with it and people are still getting their work done, this is one of those flexibility things that make everyone’s lives better.

      If someone isn’t getting their work done, then that’s another story, but it doesn’t mean working from home is bullshit or something. I get kind of sensitive about people putting “working from home” in quotes like that because it implies people aren’t actually working and that does a huge disservice to the idea of flexibility in general.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Right – I didn’t quite say that in my post above yours, but I agree — working from home is a valid thing, and me taking 10 minute breaks to walk my dog (or check on a sick husband, or whatever) doesn’t mean I’m not working.

      2. soanonforthis*

        Sorry, maybe I should have left out the quotes. I get frustrated with this coworker a lot because he uses any excuse possible to not come in to the office so I’ve lost my sense of flexibility when it comes to him.

        1. this*

          Answer is still the same. If this does not effect your ability to do your job you have to let it go. If it causes work issues for you then you talk to your boss about those.

        2. Christy*

          Yeah, it sounds like you’re just frustrated with this coworker in particular. He does sound like a pain, fwiw.

          1. soanonforthis*

            exactly – just kind of needed to vent. I know tons of people can WFH, be rock stars, and not abuse the system.

    3. Emilia Bedelia*

      Depends on how old the sick person is. I had surgery and couldn’t walk for a few days, as an adult and stayed at home with my dad while he worked from hom… he made me lunch and got me a water bottle once or twice. That was it. For a toddler with a stomach bug who has to go to the doctor and actually cared for, it’s different.

      If they’re not actually getting any work done, then there’s your problem. If they are getting their work done, then why do you care?

      1. Witty Nickname*

        And really, if there not actually getting any work done, it’s only the OP’s problem if 1) that affects the OP’s ability to get their work done, or 2) the OP is the employee’s manager. Otherwise, the OP doesn’t even need to worry about that.

        (I type, as I am sitting on the couch in my living room working while my sick 8-year-old is resting in the other room. I was actually working from home already, because I really need a day to myself without coworkers or husband or kids around, when I got the call from his school that he was sick. Thankfully, my boss is very flexible as long as I’m delivering things when I need to. So I can determine if my schedule can handle a less productive day based on what I’m working on and when things are due.)

    4. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I personally find that most of the time, they’re at about 25% productivity and spending most of their time with the sick person, not working.

      And sorry, I don’t buy staying home with a spouse. A kid who can’t go to daycare or school is a whole different thing, but a spouse is a functional adult and can care for themselves for 8 hours when they’re sick. If you’re required to be there to assist them with, say, surgical recovery, that’s a PTO situation.

      2. ThatGirl*

        I mean, if my husband has a cold or something I’m not gonna use an extra WFH day.

        But a couple years ago he got a debilitating migraine and was throwing up for hours – that was worth me staying home for, just to make sure he was getting fluids, help clean up, and make sure it wasn’t getting worse. We have the flexibility to wfh regularly, though, so it wasn’t a big deal.

        2. spocklady*

          Yeah, my husband actually stayed home an afternoon with me recently — I had a real bad virus/vertigo combo and there was a similar situation with getting enough fluids, cleanup, etc. He wanted to keep an eye on me in case I needed to go to urgent care/the emergency room.

          Most of the time I’m 100% fine to just lay in bed or on the couch and recover, but I was really glad he was there this time.

          1. justsomeone*

            My husband is having retina surgery next week. He has to be face down for over a week. I have to be home with him all day the day after surgery in case his pain spikes suddenly ( an indicator of complications) or to bring him some water or help him get out of bed to use the bathroom. But 99% of the day he’s going to be in bed asleep. I just have to be on hand in case something does wrong. I could absolutely get in a full and productive day of work.

            1. Pretend Scientist*

              OT, but why facedown for over a week? I work for an ophthalmology group, and facedown is fairly rare, especially for that amount of time.

              1. nonegiven*

                I had laser retinopexy on both eyes. I didn’t need to do anything like that.

                But I got stuck in waiting rooms full of people waiting for their eyes to fully dilate and some of the descriptions of upcoming and previous surgeries gave me the willies and some of them could have conceivably needed follow up like that.

                The room was packed and nobody could read so all there was to do was tell war stories.

      3. Leatherwings*

        I just think that’s hugely misinformed. Maybe it’s the case in some workplaces, but when I work from home I am working from home, and that expectation is widespread. If people at your workplace are at 25% productivity, that’s something your workplace needs to address. It’s not true of all people working from home.

        My SO has stayed home for me before because I was so fevered I couldn’t get out of bed or even wake up. He made sure I was getting fluids, made me some soup at lunchtime and woke me up to take ibuprofen. It was roughly the equivalent of taking a few bathroom breaks throughout the day. I don’t understand what about that you don’t “buy.”

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          That’s not true of all people working from home, but when people “work from home” to stay with a sick kid, that usually results in about 25% productivity.

          I’ll take your point regarding the situation you describe, for a few days when the spouse has the flu. When it goes on for several weeks, per the OP, that’s getting excessive and will impact everyone else in the organization.

          1. Leatherwings*

            I just don’t think the 25% thing is true or fair, and even if it is true at certain workplaces, that’s an individual workplace issue, not a work from home issue as a whole.

            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              And like I said: I’m not presenting it as a WFH issue as a whole. I’m commenting that in this specific situation, where there’s a sick kid involved, my personal experience is that the parent is not able to work at full output. And staying home with my toddler, I know why, because a miserable little kid wants all the attention.

              I’m very positive about WFH and we all do it once a week. Not a problem.

              1. NW Mossy*

                It can definitely vary by kid, though. My eldest is one that sleeps off illness, so “caring” for her when she’s ill basically just involves being in the house so that I don’t violate local ordinances about leaving kids home alone.

                1. Lily Rowan*

                  Varies wildly by age, too — staying home with a sick infant or 10 year old might let you do your full job, but a 2 year old? I doubt it.

      4. efore*

        I just had surgery and my husband ended up staying home with me because I needed help getting off the couch to go to the bathroom. But he worked from home, because for the most part, I was sleeping or watching TV. But every now and then, I’d ask him for help getting to the bathroom or for a glass of water.

      5. Observer*

        That’s just not true. BTDT as the sick spouse.

        Just because you have never experienced this, does not make it the case.

      6. Manders*

        There are some sorts of surgeries where adults really do need someone to just be nearby for a certain period of time. It was a huge pain at my last job when my partner had surgery and needed someone to sit with him afterwards, but I wasn’t allowed to take time off on the day he absolutely had to have the surgery. Luckily, he had relatives in town who could watch him, but the doctors were very clear that leaving him home alone wasn’t an option.

      7. Creag an Tuire*

        I have to disagree with you there — a spouse recovering from surgical recovery who needs you to occasionally get up and get them things or help them walk to the washroom but is otherwise going to read, Netflix, and rest all day is a perfectly cromulent use of WFH.

        Kids, OTOH, I always take the PTO. (Especially since in most of my experience, the kid’s already feeling better and climbing on the furniture, but has to wait 24 hours before returning to daycare.)

        1. Rebecca*

          Agreed. I had a non time sensitive office job, think, the work needs to get done but not during 8-5 hours, and when my Dad had hip replacement, they allowed me to work from my parent’s house. I was there for the first 10 days or so (they are older and my Mom couldn’t help Dad stand up or move him as she’s tiny and not strong). I worked and got my work done, and carefully kept track of the hours as I was non-exempt. It worked out perfectly. I didn’t have to use 8 days of vacation time, and no one had to cover for me while I was out.

      8. Whats In A Name*

        Being able to work from home was HUGE when my s/o had a spinal fusion. I worked at capacity but I could be there in case any other host of things that he actually could not do for himself over the 10 hours I am gone from home on a workday (8 working, 1 lunch, 30 min commute each way).

        Taking PTO would have been silly for me; he slept 18 hours of the day. I just needed to be able to be there in case he fell on a trip to the restroom. And I made him lunch on my lunch hour.

    5. Newish Reader*

      Is the coworker’s work getting accomplished while they are working from home? If it’s a job where much of the work can be performed remotely AND that work is getting done, you should just let this go. Depending on the type of illness of the child or spouse, it’s conceivable that work can be done while the person whose ill is resting.

      If the work isn’t getting done and that is impacting your work, then you could address it with your manager from the perspective of the impact to your work.

    6. this*

      As long as they are getting their work done and it’s not effecting your ability to do your job you need to let it go.

    7. Artemesia*

      It is all about output. If the person is pulling their oar it wouldn’t bother me too much, but if it is raising everyone else’s workload, then yeah.

    8. Liz2*

      I’m a modern type- if work is getting done and no deadlines are being missed, I don’t care where they are or how much a butt is in a chair.

      If work isn’t getting done and deadlines are missed however…that’s not cool no matter what.

      1. Whats In A Name*

        That’s about how I see this. 5 days a week or no days a week – if you get your job done then have at it.

        Plus, I am way more productive when I WFH. No people dropping by and no phone calls, it’s actually kinda great for my productivity!

    9. Temperance*

      I think it depends.

      My husband’s workplace gave him 6 days off, no questions asked, when I was ill in the hospital, and one day when I was home recovering. They didn’t expect him to work.

      Taking care of a child or high-needs adult is not really working. Someone who might need you for one or two things throughout the day is a different issue, though.

      1. Whats In A Name*

        That was awesome of your husbands workplace! I agree the needs of the individual being “watched” come into play here, too.

        1. Temperance*

          It was really amazing of them. They gave him what they called “emergency leave”, because it was a serious emergency those first few days when I was in the ICU.

    10. Lemon Zinger*

      Two weeks seems like a lot, but I don’t have an issue with it as long as work is getting done. Also, the employee shouldn’t be missing important meetings, conferences, etc.

      I wish I’d had the option to work from home to care for my SO while he was recovering from surgery. Granted, I never asked, but I don’t think my boss would have approved it. He just needed someone to make him tea/fetch him water/help him take his medication. If he needed extensive care, obviously that’s the time to use PTO.

    11. Aurion*

      The acid test is really “are you getting a full day’s worth of productivity out from WFH? If you are, and the alternate schedule doesn’t interfere with or delay other people’s work, then reasonable bosses and colleagues shouldn’t care about the details.”

      I actually had a friend ask me about this recently. She is a relatively new employee and her boss remarked on her WFH a few times when she was sick, and she was all “but I was sick?” And when I point-blank ask her that question above, she sheepishly said something about probably getting a half-day’s worth of productivity. Which is really the key part people are irritated about. If my colleagues get their work done from home, and the alternate schedule doesn’t hold up anything I’m doing, I really don’t care if they’re caring for their sick child, spouse, or cactus.

      1. KellyK*

        Yes, absolutely.

        I’d also add that some reduced productivity may not be a big deal on rare occasions, particularly if the alternative is taking a sick day and having no productivity. If you get done 80% of what you’d do in a normal workday, then get caught up when you come back, that’s better than taking two days off and either sticking coworkers with those tasks or having things not get done.

        Generally, I think that if someone else has to pick up your slack, you should be taking at least some PTO rather than a WFH day.

      2. Bex*

        On the flip side, I’ve also had times where my boss was fine with me working at home with only 50-75% productivity, because from her view that was far better than the 0% they would have gotten if I took a full sick day. Usually it was because we had big calls that couldn’t be rescheduled and my participation was required.

      3. Aurion*

        @ KellyK & Bex:

        Absolutely agreed, and there are definitely circumstances where the reduced productivity now is better than taking a full day off of zero productivity and catch up later. But I feel like that either should be a) rare or b) discussed ahead of time with boss/colleagues so everyone’s on the same page. Otherwise, a blanket defense of “I was working from home!” without that previous understanding means I expect the work will be up to the same productivity and quality as the work at the office.

    12. Overeducated*

      I am doing this with a sick toddler today. At the end of the day I will total up how much time I actually worked and how much I will take as sick leave – my guess is half and half. I am glad that the work on my plate today can all be done just as well from home and isn’t time sensitive, unlike yesterday”s full slate of meetings, and in return for the flexibility I will be honest about my productivity.

      With an older kid who is too sick to go to school, but can read, nap, and watch videos all day, I think working from home is legit and humane of workplaces to allow when possible.

    13. Anxa*

      My mom used to stay home with me and I can’t say that she got a lot done, but, and I’m not trying to diminish the amount of work childcare is, but depending on how sick I was I would maybe see her for an extra hour that day?

      If a child has a cold, there’s really not that much you need to do.

    14. Elizabeth West*

      Well it depends on what’s going on. I’ve had coworkers who WFH to care for a sick child and they actually were available at least part of the time to answer emails, etc. I think that is fine. If they’re not getting their work done and it’s affecting your work, then you might want to ask your boss how s/he wants you to prioritize things.

    15. Mena*

      You can’t do both. If you’re caring for a sick child, you’re not working your full day.

      I was horrified when a former employer stated that working from home required that you have sufficient childcare in place (working from home with small children requiring your supervision isn’t working your full day) … I was horrified that this even needed to be spelled out to senior-level professionals – I was even MORE horrified when people pushed back and complained. WWWWHHHHAAAATTTTT?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I totally get this. And for the most part I agree.

        I do see that as the decades roll by me, more and more people are having surgeries for this and that. Those patients need someone with them sometimes. I think reality based companies have to realize that some compromises need to be made from time to time. People can’t afford in home care and even if they can often times there is NO ONE to hire. Post-surgery care often falls to the family.

        I think 2 weeks of WFH should require a discussion and plan made with the boss. AND everyone else should be allowed the same ability if needed. The discussion would include accountability for productivity levels.

        Personally, if it took me 12 hours to 8 hours worth of work because of interruptions, then that is what I would do. But I would also know that this not a sustainable plan for me, there has to be an end date.

      2. NotAnotherManager!*

        Eh, I don’t agree. I think people need to have regular and sufficient childcare for a routine work from home situation with well children, but I have had to take a day off to be home with a sick kid* and put in just as much time not having to do a 2-hour-round-trip commute on top of my workday.

        * Stomach bugs not included, that is a full-day of mop and bucket and oh-god-not-on-the-COUCH! detail, but a kid with a cold or something may sleep nearly the whole day and require little more than lunch and periodic check-ins.

    16. Ann Furthermore*

      It depends on a few things. There are definitely people who, as you say, “work from home,” and then people who actually do work from home. There’s a big difference.

      For me, if my daughter is sick, I can usually park her in front of the TV, make sure she’s staying hydrated, check her temperature, and give her ibuprofen or Tylenol. She’s almost 8, so she’s a little more self sufficient. When she was younger, she required much more supervision.

      But no matter what, I always let my boss and co-workers know that I’m home with a sick kid, and will be working on and off throughout the day, and then finish up working after my husband gets home and takes over for me. That way there’s no question about if I’m working or “working.” It’s important to be totally up front about that, so there are no misunderstandings. And for people to have an inbox full of emails, or see that you’ve completed your part of something by the deadline, or whatever, to show that yes, even though you’re caring for someone who’s sick, you’re also getting your work done.

  14. Mrs Lady*

    Sort of a vent, but please chime in if you have experience here –

    My boss likes to ask for feedback all the time. But when she says “feedback,” what she really means is “validation.” I’m sure this isn’t an uncommon problem. I work in a middle school with a teaching staff of about 60, plus various aides and support staff. Her preferred method of getting things done is to put people in “task forces,” ask them to come up with solutions to things so she can say, “See, I’m being inclusive and letting people have a voice!” But when the task forces come back with their ideas, recommendations, and action plans, she vetoes them or overrides them with her own plan… and then makes the task force carry out *her* plan. And believe me, people are riled up as hell about this. Anyone who points out that the task force isn’t making any actual decisions is “negative” and “unhelpful.”

    Our district has implemented something new this year wherein a “team” of teachers, parents, etc handle the planning of the budget. We are under the advice of the principal, but at the end of the process, she doesn’t have a vote – we do. My colleagues voted me in as one of the teachers on this team and they are expecting changes.

    I’m nervous as hell but excited to make a difference – hopefully my boss doesn’t hate me in the process. Has anyone ever dealt with something similar? I’m happy to hear any words of advice.

    1. kbeers0su*

      no experience, but that seems like both an awesome opportunity and a potential shitshow. best of luck?

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Your principal sounds like an ass. Sorry. But it’s nice that teachers are getting a real voice, and I kind of suspect that behavior like your boss’ is the reason why that change was made.

    3. Biff*

      You can always deliver feedback that validates only part of a program. Let’s say, for example, that your Boss implements a program that each of you is to read a grade-level appropriate book each week and develop a ‘life lesson plan’ based on the book. Let’s pretend for the moment that your day doesn’t have room for yet another lesson, and your life doesn’t have room for even one more work-task. You could still handle the feedback in a validating fashion:

      “Boss, people really like the idea of having a life lesson each week in the classroom, and we also like the idea of teaching that lesson from a more modern, more popular book. However, most of us are wondering if this should take priority over Onerous Weekly Packet Building, Limited Art Education Time, or should be slotted into one of our scheduled Computer Lab Times, since there’s really not a lot of unstructured time in our classrooms. I think the general consensus is that the idea is great, but we need more implementation planning to make it a big success with the classroom and the parents.”

    4. Master Bean Counter*

      I hate to break it to you, but anytime you are in charge of a budget, somebody will not be happy with you. ;)
      My advice:
      Document any changes you make in the budget with a solid backing. Try to have a reason for everything.

    5. zora*

      In my (second-hand) experience, K-12 principals are either wonderful or dumpster fires. There is no in between. This sounds exactly like my mom’s former principal (except it can’t be because she got Peter Principled up to the district level, fine whatever, good riddance). It can be very common with principals who really have no management experience, and are very insecure. I honestly wouldn’t expect her to change, and pushing back on her could really suck for you in the long run. HOWEVER, my mom discovered that if she pushed back, the most she had to deal with was intense passive aggression from her principal, the benefits of tenure. And since this is a structure where she doesn’t have a vote, it might be the perfect place to take a stand.

      However, what you said “hopefully she doens’t hate me” she probably will hate you, you should be prepared for that. Be ready to stay calm, let it roll off your back. Think about what the worst thing is she is likely to do if she ‘hates’ you, and be at peace with that. Because it’s more important to you to make change in the budget planning.

      Your alternative is to find another school to move to. My mom just got a good principal this year, and she almost can’t believe how different it is.

  15. Kimmy*

    Hi everyone!
    Pregnancy question – at what point did you tell your boss that you were expecting? I am expecting my first and am giving myself until 16 weeks to tell them but am curious what other people have done.

    Also, how available should I expect to be during a maternity leave? I get some paid leave from my office, and I am wondering if people responded to emails or calls or were otherwise available during their leave.

    Thanks!

    1. orchidsandtea*

      I told my old boss at 16 weeks and then changed jobs at 22 weeks. I did not mention it until the offer stage, though it was fairly obvious.

      Typically not too available, if you’re using FMLA especially. A quick “Hey where did you file the Annual Spout Report?” is okay, but you’re not supposed to work on leave.

      1. anon prego*

        How did it go switching jobs? Any issues with insurance, etc? Did the new place give you any leave? II’m 16 weeks right now and have had two interviews with the same organization that both went well. I’m wondering if I’m crazy to try to switch jobs right now (presuming an offer comes through, which it may not).

        1. orchidsandtea*

          It went well! I LOVE my new job. I feel skillful and appreciated. My team is competent and kind, including the bosses. And I got a raise! …which makes up for the unpaid time off for medical visits, since I got hired through a temp agency. So I won’t get any paid leave whatsoever. I’ve decided to take a year off, unpaid, otherwise I’d have tried to negotiate for a little bit of paid leave in the offer. I’m fairly junior, though not entry-level.

      2. Roza*

        Also very curious about this! Still a year or two off from trying for a baby, but will likely be moving around the same time or a little before, no idea if current job would let me go remote.

    2. Children's Librarian*

      I told my boss (different boss each time) around 7-8 weeks because I had such bad morning sickness each time and I missed some work. Didn’t want them to worry. Morning sickness lasted the entire pregnancy with my first (medicated) and went away at the end of my first trimester with my second (both girls).

    3. TMA*

      For my second child, I think I told him sometime at the beginning of the second trimester. Probably right around 12 weeks.

      As for being available during maternity leave, if you can be completely unavailable, be completely unavailable. I answered an email to our HR person about health insurance, but other than that, I did nothing work related. Of course, this depends on your company and the requirements of your job, but I always lean toward when you’re on leave, you’re on leave.

    4. Parenthetically*

      I told my boss pretty early (10 weeks) because his wife (also a coworker) and I are fairly close and I knew she’d figure it out when I came in pale and queasy and exhausted every day for weeks! And because I knew I’d need to be leaving for appointments and things.

    5. Poppy*

      I waited until 15 weeks. I wanted to wait longer but I was starting to show, and I didn’t want my boss to be annoyed that it was obvious and I hadn’t been up front with him. I asked him to keep it quiet around the rest of the office, and he’s been really good about it. So now I’m at 19 weeks and still haven’t officially told anyone except my boss because the bump is still pretty small. Good luck!

    6. emma*

      I had a miscarriage at 8 weeks, and was really glad I hadn’t told my boss. But by 16 weeks I know the chances have reduced considerably.

      1. anonforthis*

        Contrariwise, I had to tell my boss after a 9w miscarriage because I needed time off to recover.

      2. KellyK*

        I’m sorry about both of your miscarriages.

        I ended up telling my boss about a miscarriage at 5 weeks because I had a couple dr’s appointments very close together for bloodwork. She was really sympathetic, and that was helpful.

        For my second miscarriage, I was just starting a new job and told absolutely no one. I ended up having to come in late to my first day of work because of, again, bloodwork. I was vague about it being a medical thing that my doctor’s office insisted had to be that day, because I felt stuck in an unpleasant place between oversharing/TMI and looking flaky to a new employer. I think if I’d explained it matter-of-factly, people would’ve been fine, but it’s always sort of an awkward thing to bring up.

    7. Murphy*

      I told my boss ~15 weeks, I think. Early second trimester.

      I haven’t gone on leave yet, but because of some comments my boss has made I’m trying to stress that I really will be NOT WORKING during that time. The other day he asked about being able to call me just to be able to tell them where a file is on the share drive if they can’t find it, to which I obviously said of course. So I’m hoping to be considered unavailable unless they have a quick question that only I can answer.

      1. KellyK*

        Now might be a good time to make sure that shared drive is really well organized, and that all your files are in places that make sense.

    8. Jubilance*

      I told my boss around 12 weeks, which has is also when I told my personal network.

      I’m on maternity leave now and my company has a very strict policy about not doing any work activities while out on leave. I only logged into email to send an email & photo of my daughter to coworkers. I will have to go through my performance review with my manager while I’m on leave but that’s just due to timing.

    9. Sled dog mama*

      I told my bosses unofficially about 10 weeks with each (we worked in different locations so I told when I saw them in person). The first time I didn’t really have a reason to tell so early, the second time we were exploring a major shift in the direction of my position and I felt that pregnancy might impact my ability to cope with some of the changes.
      I also work in an industry where I’m expected to declare myself pregnant at some point due to hazards I work with so this was a hey heads up you’ll be seeing the official declaration soon. I officially declared at 16 weeks with both.

    10. Catabodua*

      I have gone through 2 pregnancies / maternity leaves while working.

      1) Told folks at about 14 weeks along. I volunteered to WFH for a short amount of time each week because some of what I did was so specific that we had to train another employee (which, I agree, we should have done before then anyway) and I was checking in on their work and making corrections/providing additional training. It ended up being about 10 hours a week (after a month of doing nothing) and was no problem at all.

      Note – I adored that supervisor and workplace and was happy to be helpful during my leave.

      2) Told folks when I was 22 weeks along. I would not work from home while I was out. However, a select few coworkers had my home number and were welcome to call for help on how to find things.

      Note – I HATED the person I worked for and was thrilled to not have to hear her voice for the duration of my leave. I was actively looking for another job and went on a few interviews while on leave.

      So for me it was all about how I felt about each workplace and supervisor. Boss #1 had no expectations of me working and was very accommodating. Boss #2 was pissed I wouldn’t even open emails and called my pregnancy “our little inconvenience” multiple times. Made it easy to decide to not do a damn thing for her while I was out.

    11. the spam queen*

      I told my boss at 20 weeks. My pregnancy experience was pretty awful, both physically and emotionally, and my male dominated workplace was my escape.

      During my leave I stopped by the office for social visits at lunch and during an employee function, but remained pretty disconnected from email and phone. The team I was working with paid me back by leaving all of my work for when I returned. Three months of full time work to be accomplished on a part time schedule (half day in office plus a couple hours a day telecommuting). They may have thought a little too highly of my capabilities. :)

    12. J*

      I have always told pretty early on because I get very, very sick when pregnant and it’s impossible to hide. It sucked when I miscarried, but it meant I didn’t need to do a whole thing when I had to take days to recover (emotionally) from those as well.

      I was completely unavailable during my maternity leaves.

    13. Anon Mom*

      I told my boss when I was around 14 weeks and the rest of our team shortly thereafter. I thought it would spread around the office after that but people were more discrete than I expected. Apart from the people I work with directly (who were affected by my maternity leave) I found it very awkward to work “By the way, I’m pregnant” into a conversation. People did start to ask once I was around 6 months and really showing, but there were staff who didn’t realize I was pregnant until I came back from maternity leave and they wondered out loud if I’d been gone for a little while (not kidding! it happened twice). Just food for thought as you’re imaging how this will go…

      As for maternity leave, I only checked in about benefits stuff and return date. My baby came eight weeks early (surprise!) so I did offer to set up a call with my boss about a week after he was born to talk through my current projects, but Boss was awesome and told me not to worry about it — they would manage.

    14. TheCupcakeCounter*

      I had planned to tell my boss after I passed the first trimester mark and got the OK from the doctor but my pregnancy sickness changed that quick and I was outed about the 8-9 week mark. 3 days in a row of nearly puking at my desk multiple times each morning and he knew (had 5 kids and 12 grandkids).
      I checked email once a couple of days after I came home from the hospital but other than that didn’t stay in contact or work at all. Keep in mind that if you take the full 12 weeks FMLA covers you aren’t getting paid for about half of that time.

    15. Bonky*

      I’m one of the company founders, so it was more a case of telling my peers and my board: but I told them as soon as I found out this time because I’ve had a chronic ectopic pregnancy (don’t google it, they are vanishingly unusual and it will not happen to you) and miscarriages with complications, and I didn’t want to be in a situation where I surprised them by needing time off or emotional support again.

      The first trimester can also be really tough on some people. I’m 7 months pregnant with our first at the moment, and I’m a bit old to be doing it because it’s taken such a long time to have a successful pregnancy (I’ll be 41 when she arrives); I don’t know how much of it was age-related, but so far the very worst of the fatigue was in the first trimester, and the morning sickness was very hard to deal with; I was not in the office as much as I like to be. So if you find that you are affected in that way you’ll probably be best off disclosing.

      Maternity leave: depends on you, depends on your employer, depends on where you are. My understanding is that your work is not allowed to email or call you or otherwise make you work (at least here in the UK): you’re on leave, and leave means…leave. Because of my position in the organisation (and the UK’s very generous leave policy) I am intending on doing some work all the way through, but I’ll have a lot of support at home with a nanny, and that will enable me to do that: not everybody is able to make that choice. And, of course, I and my colleagues are aware that my choices around this may change once the baby is here, or that I might be sick or depressed when she arrives, and that that may change things.

      Be pragmatic, be aware that your feelings and needs may change. And congratulations!

    16. Clever Name*

      I told my boss at 11 weeks. I was planning on waiting until the 2nd trimester, but I was coming in late due to morning sickness, so I figured I had better explain myself.

    17. Bluebell*

      I had two wildly different experiences with people who reported to me:
      #1 – told me at 12 weeks or so. This was her second. She did great planning, wasn’t sick during the pregnancy but went into labor about a week early, and I only contacted her a handful of times during her leave.
      #2 – told me before she told her family, at just a few weeks. It was her first, she was sick often, and by the time she left for maternity leave she had no pto left. I asked hr for a temp about a month before her due date. We didn’t need to contact her much, and when she came in during her maternity leave she handed over her resignation.
      I now have two staffers who I think may be taking maternity leave in the next year or so, and I feel I’m pretty well prepared for anything.
      Good luck!

    18. Tandar*

      Be fairly unavailable if you can. I got complained at by HR for “working” during one of my maternity leaves because I replied to an email to say that I was on FMLA and could respond to their concern when I got back on X date. It was about the 3rd email in a row HR had sent me on the same question so obviously no one was paying attention to my Out of Office response.

      I tended to tell my boss on the earlier side but only because I’d had a couple of miscarriages previously and so I was followed closely by my doctor early on with more frequent appointments than is normal.

    19. Anonymous*

      My industry is unusual because we are exposed to several prenatal hazards, so we have to disclose it immediately. I think I told my husband first, boss second, and parents third. Would not have been my preference.

  16. orchidsandtea*

    When you’ve taken over a role in the past, were there any specific types of documentation that really helped you? Especially anything out of the ordinary or that you might not have otherwise thought of.

    Context:
    I’m in an administrative role that didn’t exist before me, and I’m going on maternity leave for a year. (Well. This is the US. I have zero guarantee I’ll have a job to come back to.) Management’s been a little hands-off, so I’ve shaped the role. There are some big transitions coming up, so while I can document my processes, a lot will need to change. I want to set the next person up for success.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      One thing I wish I got when I started at Current Job was some specific guidelines/reminders for things I don’t do regularly – projects that are quarterly, annual, that kind of thing. I was a bit blindsided on some items that first year or so (a few annual things I wasn’t told about in advance)!

      1. Not The Droid You Are Looking For*

        I have a “cheat sheet” by month that lists things I do once a year/once a quarter.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          Definitely – now it’s all in my Outlook and physical calendar, but that first year had some tough moments!

    2. Mini Snowder*

      Anything that describes a typical day! I took over a role without training and I still have no idea how the previous person filled her days, and no one else does either.

    3. kbeers0su*

      Who to ask about certain types of questions. It’s nice to know who the go-to people for things are so that if there is something you forget to document, the next person at least knows where to (hopefully) find the answer.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        YES
        I always tried to add a person’s name into my SOP documents, and include the department in case that person was out of the office, left the company, or moved to another division. Like “If you have questions about bewitched teapots, send an interdepartmental memo to Arthur Weasley in the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office.”

      2. Whats In A Name*

        Also 2nding this – a list of contacts…what if the printer breaks, what if phone/IT go down….anyone you contact regularly – even if regularly is once every 6 months. This is so so helpful when going into a new role.

    4. Newish Reader*

      Rationale for why things are done a particular way. Someone new that doesn’t have the history of why things are done that way. And then when changes are suggested, they don’t have the context or detail to understand if the suggestions are reasonable. I always hate when someone tells me “we’ve always done it this way.” I want to know why it’s done that way so we can talk through any consequences or implications of changes. Or I want to know what didn’t work in the past so there can be an attempt to ensure changes avoid those earlier issues.

    5. Liz2*

      I like binders for that. It helped organize my thoughts and create “cheat sheets.” Calendaring, big events, travel contacts, equipment ordering/service contacts, local building contacts, catering contacts. Really just a lot of lists with a few important documentations printed out and systems explanations.

      I also like to ask the question “what about when that 1% of time when things don’t go right?” “what about when there’s a blizzard?” When things go normal and easy, no one thinks about it. It’s when everything’s going weird and wrong that they need to find answers fast.

    6. animaniactoo*

      Who to contact if something is unclear from what you’ve left if it’s going to be different people for different portions of the job. So “For teapot compliance reports, X is the best person to go to if you have questions, for teapot safety statistics, Y is the best person to ask.”

    7. Observer*

      List of each vendor, what you use them for (fairly specific if you have multiple vendors that seem similar), contact information and best way to contact them and order (not necessarily the same thing).

      List of EVERY external account you have, login and password, instructions for account maintenance (eg to change the person who gets notices) and date for re-enrollment / renewal.

      List of every form your position currently uses, what it’s for, where the master is.

      All of the other things people have mentioned.

      1. Ama*

        This — and also once you’ve actually made these lists, either a master list of all of these lists with where they are located or (if they are in one document) a table of contents at the front . So many times I have started a new job or been covering for someone and wasted time pulling data on my own only to discover that the data already existed in a document but it was in a folder I hadn’t thought to look in.

  17. Marche*

    Had a great conversation with a recruiter earlier this week. We talked about the current market for entry-level engineers and possible avenues to search, and she reviewed my resume and said she’d pass it around to the rest of her team. I’ve been looking long enough that I’m not super optimistic about anything, just determined to find work, but I’m pretty pleased to have spoken with her because if nothing else, a recruiter can’t hurt.

  18. Zoe Karvounopsina*

    We began tidying hoarder coworker’s desk today. It went surprisingly well.

    This may be because I was the one filing three years of invoices, and she hadn’t come in yet when we put all her half-empty bottles, crisps, and kinder egg toys in a box.

    1. kbeers0su*

      Just ew. I’m in the process of cleaning out my hoarder admin’s files. I literally had to wait until she was gone each day last week (she’s 3/4 time) and dig through her desk to find everything she had, because she either couldn’t or wouldn’t tell me what kinds of files she had. About 20 flashdrives, mounds of old CDs, and binders and binders later, I think we’re finally making headway. Sad part is that although she hoarded tons of useless information over the years, she threw out some really important files because she was “following the rules about purging things every 7 years.” Not sure where that rule came from…ugh.

      1. RKB*

        That’s something I’ve seen on Pinterest. Purging some big ticket paper items every 7 years. But that’s for your home… not for your work!

    2. krysb*

      When I was younger, I was the hoarder assistant. Now, I’m borderline-neurotic about keeping everything in its proper place. Of course, I’m not an assistant anymore, but age has done me well on this level.

    3. Lefty*

      Ugh, best of luck! I’d be interested in hearing her reaction to it.

      I inherited a “hoarder office” from a 20+ year employee… it was so bad that the property manager insisted on replacing the carpet and blinds after I removed all of the other detritus (yay!).

    4. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      I’m not a total hoarder, but I do tend to have a messy desk. (Although I do know where everything is!) At a previous job, a coworker took it upon herself to clean my desk every so often. (She came in an hour or so before I did.) What drove me crazy is that whenever she did that, I had to spend a bunch of time trying to find where she had moved my things.

      (Oh, and I added to my name here so as not to be confused with the other Rachel.)

      1. Zoe Karvoupsina*

        We did tell her today was cleaning day, and made sure not to move work related stuff until she was in, and could inform us that the Remittance Advice from 2014 is ESSENTIAL.

        (“No,” her manager whispered, a broken woman, “No, it isn’t.”)

        She’s been politely asked to fix this for the last three months.

        1. Ismis*

          That’s fair, Zoe K – but Rachel 2 – as a messy desk person as well, I would be VERY angry with any coworker who messed with my things!! Did you ever call her on it?

    5. Nan*

      I had termed someone who was also a friend, about a year/year and half ago. I believe it was 5 printer paper boxes full of stuff I cleaned out of her cube. We have 3 drawers and a shelf. Yikes!

    6. zora*

      I spent pretty much 8 hours a day for a month at one temp job just dealing with the stuff from the hoarder admin. There were dozens of boxes of office supplies and equipment in every drawer, closet, desk, and it was a pretty small office! There were more office supplies than that staff would have gone through in 10 years, plus boxes literally full of obsolete things, like 100s of unopened packs of minidisks and minidisk cases (remember those?) 100s of unopened VHS tapes, 100s of packs of typewriter ribbons… it was so weird opening those boxes, like I’d fallen through a wormhole.

      Fun tag to this story: I found out eventually that the admin had been fired because she had been using HUGE Staples orders to hide that she was buying personal items on the office credit card! I just don’t even get people….

      1. Fiona the Lurker*

        In one previous job we had a new colleague arrive (from another department) complete with a large quantity of oddly-sized envelopes that we couldn’t imagine a use for. It turned out that she’d taken over completing the weekly stationery requisition from someone else and because these envelopes had been requested *once* she’d just gone on and on asking for the same number every week; it never occurred to her to find out whether anybody actually needed them.

        Of course, the *really* silly part of all this was that there was no way she could just return them to the store; for some reason that wasn’t allowed…

  19. content marketing/content strategy/writer*

    Does anyone have any advice for me? Not sure how many of you are in this field, but I feel like I need help in my job. I started this job a few months back and I’m basically owning content marketing for this website. my boss had a talk w/ me about how i need to be a self-starter and don’t i want to create the backbone for my team and doesn’t it feel good to not be an order-taker…. but in reality, i rather be an order-taker. i have to basically become a journalistic go-getter within my org and unearth all these interesting stories to tell on the site. i have to create something out of nothing. ironically i was warned about this in my interview, but not by my boss because she started after me. she is very much type-A, REALLY into her job and the marketing field, whereas I’m used to all my other jobs when I’m given assignments or given a set project. i think so much of this is down to my confidence. but also, how do i be a self-starter when i feel like i don’t have anything to do? i’ve been contacting the connections i HAVE made within the org to see if they can be a source, and getting names from them and contacting them too. i’ve asked them if we can have a reciprocal relationship where they tell me if there’s a story in development. but like, what other stories are there except, “this is how this technology works.” “we are launching a new service, this is how it works.” Ahhhh…

    I cannot get fired, I am the only breadwinner right now. My boss is definitely trying to encourage me and set biweekly meetings for us, but we are SO different. she is not going to give me like, a helping hand.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I came from technical writing to marketing, so I totally get the feeling (incredibly structured to… be creative! Whatever you like!… it was a weird transition).

      Some of my blog posts and social media includes:
      * interviews with clients and staff (Have you talked to Jim in customer support? Here’s some fun stuff about Jim.)
      * training materials (is it time for a full-store inventory already? Here’s some tips on that stuff)
      * hardware tips (another Windows 10 update? Here’s some common networking solutions if it reset stuff)
      * reposts or recaps of industry related recalls/new products/new trends

      I’ve found Sales and Customer Service to be really good sources. Sales usually sees upcoming trends or new things customers are looking for. CS gives me ideas on common problems people are calling in about. If you have suppliers (or competitors), following their blogs/social media is also helpful.

      Not sure what kind of company you’re at or who your customers are, but mine is a B2B software.

    2. plain_jane*

      Can you do pieces about why people who are doing interesting work in the organization think the work/product is important?

      Why did you decide to launch the new service? Can you interview one of the early adopters of the new service? Someone who is using it slightly differently than anticipated?

    3. Karanda Baywood*

      Research your competition. What do they do, how do they do it? Check out industry blogs. I bet you can glean some good stuff from them. Brainstorm with coworkers! I bet they have ideas as well.

      Then make a task list and check things off when you finish. You’ll feel more like you’re being given an assignment.

      2. SophieChotek*

        Yes. It depends on your industry, but I have to do a lot of create-content-from-nothing in my job also. There are lots of Content Marketing websites out there — they are often general, etc., but sometimes I find just reading them give me ideas.

        Ditto treading industry magazines, etc. I am signed up for all our competitors blogs/email lists, etc. so I get a sense of what what they are publishing, etc. It might feel like copying/doing what X just did, but honestly, at least in my industry, I feel like all the content is more of them same — every brand talking about how awesome it is. (Sigh. There are only so many ways I can talk about how awesome my company is, especially when I don’t actually believe it most of the time.)

        Do you have first/early users? Can you talk to them about how your brand’s technology helped them? How did they discover it? etc.

    4. Spoonie*

      I think you need to have a conversation with your boss about exactly what direction the content needs to go in. Does it need to be solely focused on product, or do you want to weave pieces of company identity/brand in with the content? What does your brand look like? Maybe create a better frame of what she’s wanting and then go from there.

      If the decision is that you’re wanting to focus on a mix of product and people, you can do some features highlighting different people within your company. Does your company have any volunteer initiatives that you can highlight? Can you talk about how Fergus has been with the company for 30 years and how he started and where he is now? Maybe a Company AfterHours about how Susan does competitive underwater basketweaving (depending on format, etc.). Is there a new partnership with your company and a national entity?

      The important part is to set up a schedule for yourself to always be refreshing story ideas. Make some contacts with people across your company. If you have a company intranet, set up a form for a story suggestion (with info on who made the suggestion so you can get more details as needed).

    5. Overeducated*

      I think it’s important spend time really getting the know your organization and its work deeply. Often people don’t know what an interesting story would be to an outsider because they are so deeply in it, or they don’t know about connections to other areas. See if you can set up days to shadow people in different areas of your company because the more you know, the more stories you will be able to find.

      I am in a position that is kind of like yours, and my methods right now are a) talk to lots of people, ask for tons of info, read lots of stuff, b) work on a constantly evolving content map and calendar, and c) just start writing when I have an idea, even if a piece doesn’t make the final cut.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Think about a newspaper there is worldwide, national, state and local news- new information is put into one of these groups. Then they have recurring advice columns, comics etc.
      If you can set up a frame work of general categories maybe your general categories would be industry wide, local level and company wide. Then you could do recurring subjects, which might help you to avoid reinventing the wheel every time you write.

      This may be too sneaky. But why not turn the tables? Tell her that your first piece is going to be to interview her. (Actually write the piece.) Ask her questions, start out easy, “what drew you to our industry?” and work up to larger questions, “what do you think have been the best changes?” and “where do you think our industry will be in five years/ten years.”

      You might collect enough from your interview of her to get yourself into the swing of it. If she is a type A she probably has a thousand things to tell you, it’s just a matter of figuring out how to get it out of her.

    7. Chaordic One*

      I hope this doesn’t sound rude, but I think you might be over-thinking the situation. You certainly want to be creative, but on the other hand, there is truly nothing new under the sun and not everything that you create is going to be truly original. You are going to build upon the work of others and it is not cheating to be doing articles that are similar to or inspired by your company’s competition.

      Aside from technology tutorials, in your current role you are probably going to be doing some current event and news stories about things that are going on in the wider world. You can report these same stories, but write about them from the specific point of view of how they affect your clients and how your company provides solutions to these problems and can help your clients deal with some of these things. Re-presenting an idea from a different angle can be surprisingly creative and effective.

      Here’s a link to an article from the Huffington Post by Anna Johansson who has some ideas that you might be able to use:

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anna-johansson/20-content-ideas-for-when_b_8923164.html?

      I’ve used some of these same ideas for articles for a newsletter put out by the Friends of the Library group I belong to.

    8. NDR*

      The first thing I recommend doing is to figure out who your company sees themselves as, their brand identity. If you have a brand identity and style guide, start there. If not, this could be a good firstongoing project to propose to your boss. I’ve been working on a rebrand of international company’s website, and the first thing we received was a 25-ish page guide that explained corporate values, ideals, high level services, and then, finally language to use and avoid in portraying that image.

      After that, it will become easier to pick out the stories you want to tell – whether it’s a profile of a person or department, an in-depth look at a product/service, or something in the community that the company is involved with.

      Let’s say you work for a retailer that presents themselves as being an affordable option for stylish and environmentally-responsible housewares. Stories you’d look across the company for would be things like collaborations with popular designers, a profile of a trendsetting employee, and a volunteer environmentally-focused project that your corporate office has adopted.

      People connect to personalities and narrative more than facts and descriptions, so if you have latitude to show success stories or customer stories and how they use your products, you could develop some compelling copy around those stories.

      I also recommend looking at marketing materials from a combination of competitors to your business, brands that identify themselves similarly, and then any companies whose brand/style you like to get inspired.

      Good luck!

  20. Mini Snowder*

    I am a relatively new receptionist at a small office as part of a very large, global institution. The role and industry have nothing to do with my interests or degrees, but I took job primarily out of desperation after a cross-country move with no connections in my new city. I have maybe one hour of work to do each day if I’m lucky. I fill the time with Lynda tutorials, Codecademy, and coursework for a class I’m taking. For context, I hold some of those very useful creative degrees and was previously working in the outdoor industry, but am trying to shift into web design/development work and am taking advantage of all the free time to build a portfolio. So far, I do most things on my work computer and my iPad. However, I’m at a point where I need my personal laptop to progress because I need the design-specific programs. My work computer is heavily guarded for security, so I can’t download anyway software. I also work between PC/Mac environments at work and home so I can’t use flash drives, and sites like DropBox and Google Drive are blocked. So far, no one has said anything when I sit on my iPad watching Lynda all day. I also have openly read big textbooks at my desk, but I feel like showing up with a laptop somehow crosses a line. I am afraid to ask my boss if it’s okay because I don’t want to hear ‘no’ or draw more attention to myself, but I also have a feeling that whatever keeps me out of her hair is fine with her (I gave up asking for more to do a months ago because she always acted very inconvenienced by it and nothing ever came out of it).

    No one here knows I am taking classes. I couldn’t justify the coursework with interests in different positions at my office because we have no in-house creative staff. I always complete what work comes up the second it touches my desk, but there just is nothing else for me to do. Any advice on how to proceed?

    1. Willow*

      I’d just bring the laptop. I feel like textbooks are more obvious than a laptop anyway. If anyone comments or asks you to stop you can just stop bringing it.

    4. Tinkerer*

      Do you have two screens? You could connect one to your laptop and keep the other attached to your work computer. There might be a way to connect two computers to one screen, too. Depending on your setup that might be a little more subtle.

    5. workingstudent*

      You’re new to this job and want to spend part of the day on your personal laptop doing homework that doesn’t benefit your job? No. Please don’t do this and expect your employer to be encouraging of this behavior. Reading textbooks and looking at your iPad, as a receptionist is already drawing attention, even if no one has said anything to you.

      Your gut is telling you that you’d be crossing a line with the laptop, listen to it. Find other ways to work on your coursework without risk to losing your employment. It’s obvious you don’t want to the role you’re in, perhaps job searching is an option.

  21. ArtK*

    I’m in a master’s program, getting my degree in Engineering Management. My latest instructor worked in the aircraft industry until retiring about 20 years ago. Some of the things that he said during his introduction bugged me and I’d like to get some input on them.

    First, he talked about one of his major opportunities as a program manager when his colleague was demoted and he picked up the colleague’s work. The colleague had had a family vacation scheduled for a year, but it ended up colliding with an important meeting (some general was coming in for a review.) The colleague was advised to not ask the boss for the time off, but he did anyway. The boss granted the time off and then demoted the colleague. My professor cited that as if it were perfectly normal. Personally, if I heard that the boss lacked the intestinal fortitude to say “no” to a request, and then punished someone for doing something that the boss had permitted, I’d be looking for another job.

    Right after that, the professor mentioned, approvingly, one person on the project who worked seven years without a vacation. If I were managing that person, I’d be very concerned that they were struggling or had some image that they were absolutely essential and everything would fall apart without them. In general, people work better with some time off. What the professor sees as appropriate dedication, I see as a potential problem.

    As an aside, I had to miss a mandatory in-person lecture (for an online program, no less.) The professor granted me the time off, but now I’m worried it’s going to affect my grade! At least I told him it was a work related trip and didn’t mention the fact that the actual conflict with the lecture was a family vacation piggy-backed on the work trip. I asked for the time off before I heard his introduction!

    There are some other odd things in this class. Apparently, one question on the final will be: “Given your MBPI type, what areas will you need to work on as a program manager?” Note: I am not a fan of managing by “types.”

    1. Soupspoon McGee*

      He’s been clear about what he values in the industry (nose to grindstone, no pesky personal vacations), so asking him for additional input won’t give you more information. It sounds like his preference, but you could do your own research about current industry norms and expectations from people who aren’t old poops.

      For the MBPI thing, I’d be sorely tempted to say, “As a Slytherin, I plan to work on concealing my long-term plans in industry jargon, while as an Aries, I will strive to provide clear direction in a calm and measured manner. As an ESTJ, my goal is to balance my tendency to be logically decisive with the needs of others to have input.” Or not.

      1. ArtK*

        Thanks, but I have *no* intention of working in the defense industry. I know that he’s a dinosaur in a lot of ways; I was more looking for feedback from the commentariat about management practices. I find his two major points to be absolutely abhorrent. I would never punish someone for doing something that I had explicitly permitted. I would be very concerned about an employee who never took vacation.

        Since he’s teaching a bunch of graduate students, he’s essentially telling them that this is good management.

        1. Soupspoon McGee*

          Got it–I thought you wanted feedback from him, not us. In that case, you’re right–it’s lousy management to punish people for taking vacation (a benefit they earned). It’s okay to ask people to be present for big projects. And celebrating the “no-time-off” mentality puts emphasis on the wrong things, while allowing burnout and even fraud.

        2. tigerStripes*

          Also, I understand that embezzlers rarely take vacations because they’re afraid someone taking their place will catch them.

          Vacations are important – give you a chance to let your brain do something else for a while.

    2. Jbern*

      Did he have the time off request already in or did he ask for it after the high level meeting had been scheduled, saying that the vacation had been planned for a year? It sounds like the latter. From my perspective, the employee was essentially told that requesting this time off would be negatively received. He/she did so anyway. The fact that the request still was made suggests that the employee was tone deaf, rather than the boss was passive aggressive.

      No vacations at all, though?! Sounds like a generational issue, but I still see that attitude in my office today, from people across all generations. If someone mentions my love of time off, I discuss how I view vacation time as part of my compensation package. And how I negotiated for more time because I value these opportunities to get away and explore. Occasionally, I’ll see a light bulb go on after I say that.

      1. ArtK*

        I disagree on the first point. Whether it had been approved in the past or was a recent request, the boss should not have said “yes” if they didn’t want the person to take the time. Someone who can’t say “no” but then punishes people is, to me, a bad boss. It means that nobody can trust what the boss says.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I HATE like heck to give you this advice but I think it has some validity.

      You have to answer the question in the manner HE is looking for, get your letter grade and let it go.
      I have seen whole articles written on this stuff. “My prof says Hitler was a great man. Now I have to write that on a test in order to get a decent grade in his course.” I think I would probably withdraw from the course at this point. This is an extreme example and it is so stomach churning I would not be able to stay in that class.

      However, in your case, remember it is an answer on a test and not a life-long directive. Once you get out there you can handle things in the ways you see as best.

      I was taking a class in business. A question on a test asked about what McDonald’s should do to retain public appeal and keep growing sales. The short version of my answer was to do more healthy foods such as salads. I got a C on my response and I got a very long note telling me how stupid my answer was. It was within a few years McDonald’s started talking about healthier choices. The prof did not have an accurate read on what is going on out there.
      I knew I would get a C or worse for my answer. I also knew that the way the test scores were averaged up it probably would not effect my letter grade in the end. So I wrote my real answer. It was aggravating reading his reply but I had to let that go and just console myself by saying, “He read my essay. He got my message.” I ended up with a solid A for the course. I continued to bump heads with the prof, though. It’s too bad, I liked the guy but I did not always agree with him.

      1. ArtK*

        My question was not “how do I deal with this professor,” or “how can I pass this class?” I was looking for opinions from the people here about the management approaches that he was espousing. I thought that my post was clear but perhaps a more explicit question like “what do you all think about his management approach?” would have worked better, since two people misunderstood my post.

        I’ve been around the block more than a few times (40+ years in the working world), so I know how to lie my face off in order to pass a class.

    4. Ketchikan9*

      I’ve managed up to 27 people at a time. I tell them “You don’t have to go home, but you can’t stay here,” if they are working too much overtime. I tell them “Take a mental health day,” if they seem stressed or have been working hard on a particular projected. I’d never, ever, ever encourage someone to not use their time off. Taking time off recharges people.
      As far as affecting your grade, that should be addressed in the course syllabus and the standards of conduct of the school. I find it hard to believe that 1 missed lecture could result in a docked grade and the school would endorse that.
      Good luck!

    5. Chaordic One*

      Please don’t say anything about the vacation reasons why you missed the mandatory in-person lecture. Your professor is not a reasonable person and you don’t want to give him any reason to lower your grade. I’m sure you’ve reviewed the notes and coursework from what was covered in your absence, and caught up on any assignments that were due when you were absent.

      Even though your instructor’s experience in the aircraft industry was 20 years ago, unfortunately there are still a lot of managers who share his mindset. It was passive/aggressive to grant the colleague’s request for vacation and then punish him by demoting him for doing so. It does not appear to be an admirable decision. (Of course, who knows if your instructor knows all the facts and has interpreted the situation accurately.) The admiration (instead of sadness) for the person who went seven years without taking a vacation also shows a certain amount of being out-of-touch and misguided.

      I’m sure you can do some basic research into the MBPI test and find a stock answer about your personality type tends to deal with managing others and then tweak the answer to fit your situation in a way that your professor would find satisfactory. (He sounds like an old poop who isn’t rational and you can’t really count on him to be fair or impartial in his grading.)

    6. SomeoneLikeAnon*

      He could be blowing smoke too. Remember he’s no longer in the industry so he’s experiences could cover any time during his career. They could be during a time when people weren’t empathic to a lot of current social norms.

      I went to one workshop where the guy proudly explained actions which I thought was clearly bullying, but he termed “just a joke.” Yet it was so little of a joke to the employee being played upon that the person quit. This instructor was proudly relying how his jokes got the guy to quit cause he didn’t want to deal with it anymore.

  22. mmmmm.......*

    I recently had a conversation with my dotted line manager who acknowledged how bad my direct manager was and that if I wanted to leave he would be willing to provide me with a great reference.

    Honestly, this is not the first time that people have commented on how horrible my boss is, or how difficult it is to work for him. How do I respectfully acknowledge these types of comments and asking for help, without disparaging my boss?

    1. NACSACJACK*

      You dont have to ask, you were just handed the opportunity. I would gracefully accept the reference, but definitely not disparage your boss. Maybe, say something like, “Thank you, I’ll take you up on that when I start my job search.” If job search is ongoing, “Thank you, I’d like to take you up on that. How best should I have prospective employers contact you?”

    2. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      The thing that jumps out at me most is that your dotted line manager and others are not offering any help to you in your current position; they are offering empathy and references if you move on. I’m not sure if that’s because they aren’t in the position to improve your situation or if it’s because they’ve tried and failed, but I would probably take the hint and start looking elsewhere. It sounds like you would have a lot of support from these people and could count on good references. Would you be open to moving on or are you more focused on making your current position work?

    3. k*

      I would say “Thanks, that’s very nice of you. I’ll let you know if I need to take you up on the offer.” If someone is commenting about how hard you have it but isn’t directly offering help, you can use something like, “My job has it’s ups and downs, but I try and make the best of it.”

      Basically acknowledge what they said but never directly say anything bad about your boss. Deflect and keep it diplomatic.

    4. LJL*

      I’ve been in that situation. I generally responded along the lines of: “thank you for your kind words. Your support means a lot to me.” When it did come time for me to leave, my reputation was enhanced because I didn’t take the opening to trash talk the horrible boss.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      As other have shown skip the part about the bad boss and cut to the part about being a reference. I have seen this used in many different type of situations, where a person just picks the part of the statement they want to talk about and they avoid the rest. It’s a good technique to develop and keep.

      Boss: Nancy did a horrible job on X. She messed it up beyond belief. Ha-ha. Now you get to clean it up! Ha-ha
      Me: Okay, let’s have a look and see what we need here.

      Notice: no mention of Nancy and no mention of the degree of messiness and no mention of boss’ taunts.

    6. Evergreen*

      Assuming you mean ask for help with your job, rather than a job search, I’d try to ask for specific help in a neutral way:
      ‘Yes, I’ve noticed that boss tends to get a bit stressed around year-end and cannot help me with processing – do you have any tips on how I can ask for help from boss more effectively?’
      ‘Yes, boss can be very detail-oriented in reviewing my team’s work and we’ve blown more than one deadline as a result – is there an opportunity to work out an alternative review process for certain types of things?’

      Politely acknowledging your boss’ flaws in a way that’s constructive and specific (and not a rant) will rarely be negatively construed if the other person has already identified the issue.

  23. Working mom*

    Any other working parents here? I work in a male dominated field and the other women in my office are past childbearing age and childless. All the men who have children have wives who are stay-at-home mothers. My son goes to a private school and for all three years he has gone there he is the only one in his class who has a working mother. All of the other mothers are so much more active and involved then me. All of my relatives and my in-laws have or are stay-at-home wives if they have children. I feel so alone sometimes, like no one gets how hard it is to balance work and childcare because they have someone at home or are home themselves. My husband is a hands on parent but it’s tough when I have to call in to work because my son is sick because my husband did the last time and he can’t get the day off, or when he’s the only kid in his class who bought store bought cookies to the bake exchange because both his parents were too busy with work to bake anything. It also doesn’t help that both my husband and I work in industries / for companies where working from home or doing work outside of the office is just not done.

    Just needed to vent. Thanks for listening.

    1. Mini Snowder*

      I feel for you. I came from a working household and forget that it isn’t the norm for some. You’re a bad ass!

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      Your child, however, will grow up with a model that it’s possible to work outside the home and raise a family, even if things are not “perfect.” I think that’s awesome.

    3. Future Analyst*

      Hi, fellow working mom. I hear you, and it sucks. My husband’s co-workers almost exclusively have stay-at-home spouses, so they don’t understand the notion that my husband would need to leave on time (5) some days b/c I need to work later. As for the cookie thing: keep in mind that even if I were to stay home, I wouldn’t be making anything homemade (I’m really just not a baker), so don’t let that worry you too much (plus, some schools don’t even let you bring in homemade things anymore due to concerns about allergens– maybe switch schools? I jest, of course!)

      Do you have any friends who are working moms? Meetup was so, so helpful in getting me around other working moms. (I’m in Dallas, don’t know if that’s available where you are.) And I know it’s really hard, but try not to compare yourself with other parents: it’s a no-win situation. Enjoy the time you spend with your kiddo, and if that involves letting him help bake cookies for him to take to school, do that! But if you don’t enjoy it, spend the time reading with him, or playing whatever, and don’t think twice about sending store-bought anything to school. :)

      1. Working mom*

        Hi back fellow working mom!

        Unfortunately I don’t have any friends who are working moms. I talk to working moms online but I don’t know any in real life. I have friends who worked until they had children but they left their jobs once their children were born. I made a list the other day of all the women I know who have children (family, in-laws, friends, colleague’s wives) but as much as I couldn’t believe it I am the only one.

        I feel guilty sometimes because we could easily afford for me to stay home due to my husband’s salary and job security. 2/3 of my pay is spent on daycare and babysitters for my son and the rest goes to my car and my work clothes. We don’t come out ahead because I am working. It was the same at my last job and if I was to get a new job it would likely still be the same.

        My son doesn’t always understand why none of his friends, cousins or classmates ever went to daycare or don’t go to daycare or the babysitter sometimes after school, or why I couldn’t come to the zoo this summer with him and his aunts and cousins, or why I bought cookies at the store even though he was supposed to have homemade ones for the exchange. He has asked me before to volunteer in his classroom like the other moms but I can’t because I work. I know it’s just because he is young but it is still hard sometimes.

        My husband is supportive of me working and he does his share of parenting. But I still get bummed out and feel alone if that makes any sense.

        1. Observer*

          You really should consider changing schools. What really jumps out at me is not that he’s different that his classmates, but the whole attitude. The idea that all the kids are EXPECTED to have someone at home who will bake cookies is just…. What happens to kids whose mother just don’t bake well? Or are too busy for reasons having nothing to do with their career? Or maybe are disabled? What about kids from single parent homes? Or are those “kinds” of families not acceptable?

          It’s not just cookies, it’s so many other potential issues. “Everyone must ask their father x,y, and z”. “I expect to see your mother at this event” etc. What happens to any kid who has a parent who is not present for some reason? Even in two parent households, if this is a second marriage, this can be an issue. What happens is parents don’t completely hew to gender roles and the thing that the teacher said to “ask your father” really needs to go to Mom? Even if it’s technically ok, this kind of rigidity and total lack of any sort of diversity is troubling.

          1. saro*

            Completely agree with you. I am looking into pre-schools now for my little one and have crossed off a few schools because of this dynamic.

        2. Whiskers on Kittens*

          Perhaps you don’t come out ahead with day-to-day/monthly expenses, but I assume that you are contributing to a retirement plan (not enough people think about this, I am afraid) and perhaps an education plan for your child. That adds up. I wish you could have the flexibility to volunteer–it is hard to explain when they are young.

        3. KellyK*

          I won’t tell you not to feel guilty, because that never helps. It’s right up there with “don’t worry” and “calm down.” But, I will say that working is a good thing, even if it doesn’t put you ahead financially right now. If your husband were to be laid off or were sick or injured and unable to work, your income would be essential. If your situation changes in a year or five and you need to work, you’ll be in a much better position being currently employed than you would if you’d stayed home those five years.

        4. mrs__peel*

          “We don’t come out ahead because I am working.”

          I’d recommend taking the long view– you may not feel like you come out ahead NOW (on a monthly basis). But continuing to work makes an enormous difference when it comes to lifetime earnings and retirement.

          As an attorney who deals with eldercare issues, I can tell you that being able to support yourself financially in your later years is a HUGE, HUGE gift to your children. I see so many people struggling with this. Being able to save for your later years can mean the difference between (e.g.) being able to pay privately for home help vs. having to go into a nursing home.

          Also, although no one expects to get divorced, widowed, etc., that *does* happen to a significant percentage of people who leave work to be stay-at-home parents. It’s often very hard to get back into the work force if you need to, and many people who make that choice unfortunately find themselves in very difficult financial positions as they get older.

        5. mrs__peel*

          On a more personal note, I loved daycare as a kid and I’m *very* proud of my parents who both worked! I can guarantee that your child won’t give a hoot about store-bought cookies, etc., when they get older :)

        6. Rachel in NYC (cuz just Rachel was too confusing)*

          I’m not a parent – maybe someday. But I know this much, if you love working and wouldn’t love giving up your job to stay at home then you shouldn’t. I’m all for parents being stay-at-home parents if that’s what drives them but you shouldn’t feel bad if that isn’t your calling.

          I’ll ditto what other commenters said, maybe what you and your husband want to consider is looking for another school where the student body would be more diverse (in your case, a mix of working parents and stay-at-home parents), so your son won’t feel like the odd kid out (since that is where your guilt is coming from.) Or see if you can take an afternoon to volunteer if his classroom, even if the request has to be passive aggressive – I know how much it must mean to you to have spent time volunteering in your child’s classroom and to be able to see how proud they were to show off their Dad to their friends. I just want to take a few hours to have the opportunity. (some version on that…I have a niece who loves to show off her people and have honestly never met a kid who doesn’t.)

        7. Parenthetically*

          This is wild to me. I teach in a private school in a very conservative area, and we have plenty of working moms — lots of kids who are at after-school programs until 4 or 4:30, kids who go home with sitters, kids who go to friends’ houses and get picked up there.

        8. TheCupcakeCounter*

          I am also a working mom who doesn’t “need” to work so I get the guilt feeling. There is nothing wrong with your situation and and I can’t tell if the pressure is really coming from the school or if it is something you are projecting due to your mommy-guilt.
          Since you have some unresolved feelings on this and I get the feeling you want to tweak something for your son here are some ideas:
          *I love baking so I usually bake whatever is needed at a time convenient for me and then freeze it and actually I have a few other moms who will buy home baked goodies from me for various school or other events. If it is important to your son find a few recipes you don’t mind baking and then either freeze the cookie dough in ready to bake balls or cook them and then freeze them. Then when you or your son has an event just get them out and bake them or thaw them overnight. Other option is find a friend or family member who would be willing to bake them for you and instead of picking them up at the store pick them up at their house. There is nothing wrong with store bought but since it seems important to your son I would try to do it at least some of the time. You can get him involved too. Have him look at recipes with you and make him help. He’ll learn that stuff like that requires effort, possibly acquire a love of baking, and will learn to be self-sufficient as well as have some quality mommy-son time. I do it with my son all the time – each Christmas/birthday/school function he and I will go through Pinterest and pick out what he wants and it doesn’t get made unless he helps.
          *I usually talk with my sons teacher early in the school year and tell him/her that I would like to help chaperone one of the field trips. My experience (public school) has usually been that the teachers are willing to get me an advanced copy of the field trip schedule and I pick the one that works best with my schedule. I will also volunteer at one of the after-hours events. Not the same as weekly reading group or whatever but its something and teaches compromise and commitment. (Your husband should maybe try this too since it is important that kids and sons especially see that something isn’t exclusively a dad or mom job but it sounds like you already have a good balance).

        9. ket*

          Thinking about similar things now as my husband grew up in an all stay-at-home mom environment and I grew up in an all working-outside-home mom environment and we’re expecting a kid soon.

          First, it’s not true that 2/3 of your pay goes to daycare and babysitters. Some percentage of your pay and some percentage of your husband’s pay go to daycare and babysitters — if you (god forbid) got hit by a bus, your husband would be paying — the expenses would not go away. Second, because you’re staying in the workforce you are greatly increasing the expected value of your future earnings. When your child is 10, 15, 18, you’ll be making a ton more money, on average, than all the moms who are looking to get back into the workforce once the kids are teens. Working now is an investment in your future wages and career.

          Third, I loved daycare! I love my mom and dad too but they are not the playdate type — I enjoyed being able to socialize with other kids and experience that different environment, which I would not have gotten at home. Fourth, requiring homemade baked goods is BS. Some people can’t bake a darn. And if my kid asks for homemade baked goods for school I’m going to ask my husband to haul out his crowdpleasing cherry cobbler because everyone loves it, unlike my paleo cookies :)

          Maybe check out Laura Vanderkam for some discussion of how high-earning moms organize life and time…?

          1. Mela*

            Not to mention, if you were a stay at home parent, would you really not have a car? You’d probably need one and it would come out of your husband’s salary. And don’t forget, a big chunk of your pay is going to SS and that second SS check during retirement works out to quite a bit. Would you be able to afford that private school without your salary? Your salary is important, even if it’s not as much as your husband’s!

          3. Observer*

            Fourth, requiring homemade baked goods is BS. Some people can’t bake a darn. And if my kid asks for homemade baked goods for school I’m going to ask my husband to haul out his crowdpleasing cherry cobbler because everyone loves it, unlike my paleo cookies :)

            LOL. At least you aren’t paying someone to make the “home made” cookies for you, like @TheCupcakeCounter’s friends!

            But really, it is baloney. Talk about Mommy wars! For a school to contribute to this kind of nonsense is ridiculous.

        10. Not A Morning Person*

          I get that it’s hard and please don’t take any of what I’m saying as criticism in any way. Are you looking for a place to vent and get a little sympathy or are you looking for outside perspectives on how to overcome some of the loneliness of your situation? If it is sympathy, there are plenty of people who understand the pain of making choices that may make your children uncomfortable or feel different from their peers. It’s true that it can be character-building, but it still hurts!
          What about the teachers? Are they all men with wives at home raising children? It may not be ideal, but perhaps there are a few of those teachers you could enlist to help with at a minimum helping your son deal with the expectations of the other kids or understanding the challenges of a household with both parents working.
          Is your social life so restricted by your local family and your work that you don’t have the opportunity to explore? Are there really no women in your community who have jobs and children? Or is it only the people in your current social circle?
          It is good of you to notice that your son is feeling different from the others and I’m sorry you are having the growing pains of realizing that you can’t fix this for your child. You could quit if that’s the important thing that you and your spouse choose. I’m not recommending that you quit; you had suggested it as one option, but that’s a family decision which you and your spouse would make together after agreeing on the pros and cons long-term for that choice.
          It’s hard to be different and it’s hard to see that difference being a hardship on your child. Whatever you choose, it’s not going to be easy. I wish you well.

    4. TMA*

      I totally get where you’re coming from. I’m in a similar situation where I work outside the home, but the majority of the women in my life are stay-at-home moms.

      It is hard. The balancing act can be overwhelming and guilt-inducing. But the most important thing is that your kid knows he is loved and secure. That’s all that matters.

      Good luck, stay strong. The fact that you’re worrying about this means that you’re probably doing a better job than you realize.

    5. AKJ*

      Not a working parent, but I also came from a working family and so did both of my parents (both grandmothers worked outside the time at a time when it wasn’t the norm) so I feel for you also!
      My grandmother told a story about how she sent bakery-bought cookies to school with my uncle when he was in first grade and the teacher gave her a hard time because “all of the *other* mothers send homemade cookies.”
      Grandma told the teacher: “I work, so I don’t have time to bake. But even if I didn’t, isn’t that why we have bakeries? Why would I want to put them out of business?”
      Grandma may not have baked many cookies, but she taught me so much about work ethic, and she helped me get my first job when I was a teenager, which has helped me ever since. I’d say that’s a hundred times more valuable.
      (My uncle recently celebrated his sixty-sixth birthday, which might give you an idea of how long this debate has gone on! You’re part of a long, proud tradition.)

    6. kbeers0su*

      Also a working mom. My SIL is a SAHM and I love her dearly. But whenever she posts on FB about all the great things she does with her two girls I get jealous. But my brother is a professor making the big bucks, so they can afford that, whereas hubby and I both have to work to support ourselves (well…we also love our jobs/fields). Sometimes I feel bad about not putting time into braiding my daughter’s hair, or making from-scratch baked goods…and then I realize that she does not care. Hair is hair and cookies are cookies. Maybe that will change as she gets older, but for now she’s happy, and so are we.

    7. Accounting Assistant*

      Working mom here. My daughter goes to daycare full time and I only pick her up occasionally because I work so far about 20 miles from her daycare in the city, so I am pretty sure they think I am the career mom. We switch places when my daughter is sick and if it is more than a couple of days, we involve grandparents. If your child is happy and healthy then that is really all you can do. The store bought this is weird but it is because we go to a daycare that is regulated by DHR and we can’t have anything but store bought and no peanuts or shellfish. My last job was male dominated (trucking) and almost all of the wives stayed at home except for the ones who waited later to have children. It sucks, it is hard, and I totally feel you. Hang in there. We started going to classes for kids after 5 pm and I met working moms there that way you atleast you know you are not alone in this world.

    8. NACSACJACK*

      My mom worked outside the home my entire school life, starting before I was in kindergarten. I’m sure there are times when I vented and wished she could have been at some school activity and if she worked in town and had a tolerant boss, she might have been there, but she worked 27 miles away, carpooled with my dad, and would have had to drive separately even if she could get the time off. Re: Time off? –>She started as a receptionist/typist and worked her way up. The kicker? I’m sure she remembers when we would complain, but I sure don’t. Keep that in mind raising your kid. He’ll remember what you did, not that you didnt bake cookies. He’ll remember Mommy working as hard or harder than Daddy. He’ll expect women in the workforce. He’ll expect women to be in authority over him when he starts. He will expect follow classmates to be 50% girls. He will expect all this…because he lived it.

      1. Maternity question*

        He’ll remember Mommy working as hard or harder than Daddy. He’ll expect women in the workforce. He’ll expect women to be in authority over him when he starts. He will expect follow classmates to be 50% girls. He will expect all this…because he lived it.

        This is awesome. Yes!

        2. Marcela*

          Absolutely. Please remember that you are making a man for the future, and preparing him to believe in equality is your best gift to humanity. I say this as the sister of somebody who was never expected to live without a woman (to the point sometimes he didn’t even clean his used condoms at my parents’ place), and the wife of somebody who was expected to clean, cook and be generally responsible of himself.

    9. Liz2*

      You are living your priorities. I bet one of you could stay home if you cut down the expense of a private school. But that’s the value you have. I validate you and your choices and your store cookies are likely better than half of what gets brought in. Your kid(s) will be fine so long as they are loved and enabled to be independent healthy adults.
      Your loneliness however should have some balance to it- I bet there’s a professional group you could make other contacts with. But you have to make peace with your choices and their reasons- the conflict is only a useless drain. As difficult as it is, be proud of your choices.

      1. Question for the AAM readers*

        Thank you for this. I do appreciate it.

        Part of my guilt is that because of my husband’s job security and salary we could easily afford for me to stay home without any lifestyle changes or cost cutting. My salary goes to my son’s after school daycare and babysitters and my car and gas to get to work. We don’t come out ahead because I work. I want to work though and my husband is nothing but supportive. But I still feel guilty. I will remind myself what you said. Thanks again.

        1. Temperance*

          Jumping in again to encourage you to reframe your thought process here. You and your husband are both contributing to the household. Stop the guilt! Your money isn’t covering aftercare and your car … the pool of money that you bring in, along with your husband, pays for those things. I think it’s actually a sexist idea that is floated to women that if we only make X money more than day care, we aren’t contributing so we shouldn’t work. No one, literally no one, says this to men as a matter of course.

          Also, statistically speaking, you will come ahead in the future because you didn’t get mommy-tracked at some point. Opting out is costly.

          1. Observer*

            It’s not that a WOMAN’s income is only important if it covers child care, but that a second income is financially useful if it pays more than the additional costs it brings.

            So, for each job, you look at does it cover the direct costs (transport, extra clothes etc.) then you look at the extra costs caused by the fact that both parents are working, and ask if the second job brings in enough to cover that (and some more, preferably.) The second job could be husband or wife – I’d base it on who has what career.

            On the other hand you are completely correct that the immediate income is not the whole story.

          2. J*

            Exactly. It’s not “my salary covers gas and incidentals”, it’s “our salaries pay for our life”.

            When I had my daughter, we had lots of conversations about whether I would stay home with her. Ultimately, we decided that it made more sense to have a two income household. Two incomes meant that we could afford to take our daughter on trips (she got her passport at 4 to see London and Paris, she’s been to Iceland, we’re taking her to Japan next and she’s only 8). It means she has piano lessons and dance classes. It means that we can save adequately for retirement and cover emergencies. Staying home with the baby meant that I wouldn’t have been able to do those expensive enrichment classes that I would have wanted to do with her anyway.

            We could get by with one salary. But two salaries buys us a measure of financial freedom we wouldn’t otherwise have.

          3. mrs__peel*

            ” I think it’s actually a sexist idea that is floated to women that if we only make X money more than day care, we aren’t contributing so we shouldn’t work”

            It absolutely is!! And it’s sexism that a lot of women have internalized so much we don’t even think about it. Childcare costs come out of *household* income, not just from whichever parent is earning a lower wage.

          4. NACSACJACK*

            Following up on what Observer said, it might be “his” money and “her” money but together its one big giant pot. In my parents’ case, my dad paid for the cars, the house, the utilities and the insurance. After that, it was his money to do with as he pleases. Hold that in your head for a minute. My mom paid for the groceries, the kids’ clothing and I cant remember what else, but it worked for them. Remember that “his” money attitude? While Dad was taking flying lessons and buying airplanes, mom was helping us kids + nieces pay for college & expenses. Guess who didn’t have a college degree and knew the value of one.

            And that example of separate? I’ve held the same attitude through two relationships now. I don’t think I will ever combine them together.

            And to follow up on posts about your later years…three years after retirement, Dad died. Guess who got the cars, the house, the vacation properties, and his pension along with hers. And guess who used his SSA until 70.5 when hers was bigger.

        2. Observer*

          If you are thinking about finances, keep in mind that the impact of your working now is going to be felt till you are both ready to retire. So, taking the long view should help you to re-frame it.

          Also, not to be morbid, but what happens if something happens? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard people say that having their job to go (back) to after a major loss was a life line. For a high profile example, listen to what Sheryl Sandberg had to say about the matter when she lost her husband. She didn’t NEED the job *financially*, but it made a huge difference to her AND the children. So, there is that, too, if you enjoy working.

        3. AngtheSA*

          Completely Agree with Temperance on this. The money you bring home is you and your husband’s money together. The pool pays for everything. Housing, food, daycare, transportation. If you love working then you love working. It isn’t that you love your job or you love your child. You can love doing both.

          Unless those women have maids, chefs, and personal assistants doing everything else in their life they are probably doing housework, errands, and cooking too. This is to say they are no spending 100% of their time solely focused on their children.

          Don’t worry about cookies or if you child is somehow missing out because of it. When you can spend time together then go do something fun. Go to the park, do a puzzle, create a craft off of pinterest and cook if you like doing that. Your child will be fine and will love you. Internet hugs to you!!!!

        4. Catabodua*

          Stop feeling guilty that you enjoy working. It’s ok to work and not be a stay at home mom.

          I am a working mom and when people try to give me the sad puppy dog eyes about how awful it must be to have to work and “miss out on them growing up” I shut that nonsense down immediately.

          1. mrs__peel*

            It’s worth remembering that, according to time-use studies, working parents today actually spend MORE time with their kids than stay-at-home parents in the ’50s and ’60s.

            In my grandparents’ day, the prevailing parenting style was, “Go outside and play and don’t bother me (until it gets dark and you come home for dinner)”.

            My parents both worked full-time when I was growing up (in the ’80s and ’90s), but I spent WAY more one-on-one time with them than they did with their parents.

        5. Mrs. Boo*

          Fellow working mom here – now going back to school to train for a new career. When I worked, my salary was helpful but not a deal breaker. The reason I didn’t stay home with my kids is this: I NEED TO WORK. I need that intellectual stimulation and that challenge. Taking care of kids does not do that for me. Instead, my kids are with people who are really good at taking care of kids and who love what they do. This is incredibly important for them because it teaches them how to be with other adults, how to socialize with their peers and get new perspectives (not just mine) on all different types of things in the world. It is incredibly important for me because I am not a cruise director and I have no interest in doing arts and crafts with them. This makes me a happy mom and if I’m happy, so are they.

        6. Not A Morning Person*

          And it has been statistically proven that jobs have job creation properties…that means that you working contributes to other people having jobs. Paying for private school and the salaries of the teachers and administration, paying for daycare, needing an additional car, needing clothes for work, etc., all have to be created by other people who have the jobs to provide those resources. You working helps create jobs for other people, too!

    10. Temperance*

      Not a parent, but chiming in as a former child: I always thought that women who worked were so cool. My mom stayed at home most of my childhood off and on, and I was jealous of day care kids. You are also teaching your son a valuable lesson by showing him that women can kick butt at a career.

      1. New Window*

        Also chiming in as a former child, whose mom started out as stay-at-home and then spent most of her time working–
        Man, when I was a kid, I loved store-bought anything. The adults could wax poetic about lovingly hand-made nutritious life-enhancing fountain-of-youth whole wheat bread, but meanwhile I was so, so jealous of the kids who had their PB&J sandwiches made on store-bought white bread. Sure, homemade cupcakes were tasty (note: these were all made from a box mix with store-bought frosting, and I loved them), but store-bought cupcakes–or cookies, or cakes–looked so much nicer and prettier, and they were fancier than the stuff my family made that didn’t “look right.”

        If I ever needed to look for proof that my parents loved me, I didn’t look to whether they made homemade cookies when the teacher asked, or whether they always made my lunches, or whether they were able to go to every single field trip that someone else organized. To be honest, a lot of times as I got older, I appreciated that my parents weren’t there every time. >_>

        Working Mom, I’m sorry that you’re feeling this pressure. Internet friends aren’t quite the same as meat-world friends, but we feel for you. If they ever try to throw shade at you for living your life the way that is best for you, let us know and we’ll rally to your support. :-)

      2. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

        Same here. My mom stayed home until I was old enough to watch my sister after school until one of my parents got home. The day care kids always sounded like they had so much fun – I was a little jealous too!

    11. Whiskers on Kittens*

      Hi Working Mom,

      I am also a working mom. I resisted getting back into the workforce when my oldest (of 4) children was in kindergarten. My husband, who is a financial analyst for a large public university, pleaded with me to find a job because he was worried about our funding the educations of our kids, and saving for retirement. I resisted at first, but then my mom piped up that she could watch the kids.

      I went to work the first day, teary-eyed in the car, but I enjoyed it. I did, however, race home, running into the house, expecting to be greeted by (my 3 at the time) children saying “Mama, I missed you so much!” What did happen is that the kids reluctantly stopped playing with their friends to greet me with a “Oh hi, Mom.” After a few weeks of that, I decided that the working thing was not so bad!

      I am lucky enough to be in a salaried position that allows for flexibility. If I have errands to run, I can adjust my hours. If I have a doctor’s appointment that only takes 2 hours, I need not use sick time. I work for a company that is generous with time off (6 weeks vacation, 120 hours sick leave and 12 holidays), and emphasizes a work-life balance. The salary is a bit low for the position (and my master’s degree education), but all the flexibility makes us for it.

      I feel for you that you do not experience the same level of flexibility and often wonder why companies are afraid/against giving this to their professional employees. Quite a few women in my town are also SAHMs, so I understand the feeling of being “the only one” doing a certain thing. However, I am sure your child will someday appreciate the lessons you perhaps unwittingly taught by going to work every day: how to persist when you are tired; how to juggle many different aspects of life; how to balance work-life obligations.

      My oldest three–all girls–are now in high-school and I am glad that a) I got to stay home with them when they were very little and b) glad that I got to model the above-listed traits as students–and employees–are expected to be able to handle a lot. I hope that you are able to make peace with this–it is hard!

      Are any of you parents of seniors, by the way? If so, has this year been crazier than you expected?

    12. Female-type person*

      I vividly remember being the only parent at daycare who didn’t send Valentines on February 14. For 18 month olds. Didn’t get that memo.

      This gets better with time. Moms go to work, people get divorced and then go to work, other life stuff sometimes happens which means homemade cookies go out the window, and women eventually start to opt out of competitive parenting and Pinterest perfect birthday parties, which no one does for middle schoolers, for instance. Many schools forbid homemade treats, because it is only in a commercial environment that there is a reasonable chance of identifiable ingredients and allergens. Do what you can or what you want to do, write a check for the rest, and move on. I told my kids (when they were an age where I was still an asset and not a liability) that I’d go on X number of field trips per year, and then calendar the chosen ones and take a vacation day.

      When I had little, sick kids, I would take a half day off and so would my husband, so we both showed up and got at least some work done. This was a solution that worked well for both of us, we both had jobs that valued face time and butt in seat time.

    13. Project Manager*

      Yeah. I feel you. It irritates the crap out of me when literally every activity the school/daycare sets up is geared toward people who don’t have jobs. There is no consideration for mothers who work and might not be able to take off easily. (On a related note, why do daycares send your 1yo home with complicated assignments he can’t even *help* complete, much less do on his own? I have a full-time job. If I wanted homework, I’d take a class.)

      My church is similarly annoying. They occasionally offer a women’s activity outside work hours, but the majority of the women’s groups meet during the work day, and not even at lunchtime.

      Where we differ is that I don’t have many SAHMs in my social circle…I’m sitting here trying to think of any, and there’s one family friend, one of the moms in our neighborhood mom group, and maybe my cousin’s stepbrother’s wife, but I’m not sure about her. The other moms I know/know of are working.

    14. TFAB*

      I’m the stay-at-home mom (I work part time during school hours) and weirdly I feel the same way you do. I feel alone – like I’m the last stay-at-home mom and the other parents all have these great fulfilling careers. I’ve done lots of volunteering at school, but it was because I could and I enjoyed it. And I always wished my mom would send in the pretty, perfect store cookies instead of the oatmeal raisin ones that crumbled embarrassingly in the container.

    15. Nan*

      Both my husband and I work full time. My son will be 16 soon, so he doesn’t need hands-on parenting all the time, but I went back to work 6 weeks after he was born and never looked back. The 6 weeks I spent at home with him were the most miserable six weeks of my life. You couldn’t pay me enough to be a stay at home mom. I love my kid, but I dislike children. I know some people like being a SAHM, but that’s my worst nightmare.

      Luckily, he never got sick often, and if he did, my husband and I would be able to alternate days or split the day in half. When he was younger, I didn’t have a job that I could work from home if he was sick, but now I do. If store bought cookies are the worst problem your son every faces, he’s doing ok.

      You’re doing fine as parent, and your son will be just fine, too.

    16. JGray*

      I agree with everyone else about thinking of the money as the family money. It’s really hard to change your thinking from my paycheck only pays this to I contribute to family money. I have always worked for governments or nonprofits that are on the lower end of the income level. But they always offered benefits and my husband’s jobs didn’t so I always thought in terms of that without this job we wouldn’t have health insurance but after paying premiums I wasn’t getting that big of a paycheck. But I know that having employer sponsored health insurance is something that not everyone gets and I have checked out the exchange in my state and so I know that I am actually getting a really good deal in premiums/coverage, etc. Maybe try to think of a benefit that your job gives that there wouldn’t otherwise be- retirement is a good one or like me I remember that we have health insurance. I have seen people that don’t have retirement and they either work well into their 80s or don’t have much when they do retire.

    17. Fellow working mom*

      I am so familiar with this guilt – in my case it is mostly self-inflicted because luckily my kids go to a preschool where everyone has two working parents. I love going to work and not being a SAHM makes me a more patient and more loving mom.
      If you live in the Greater Boston Area and are looking to connect with working moms offline as well, email me at pink dot elephant dot 1001 at gmail dot com.

  24. EddieSherbert*

    Yay! I’ve been waiting all week for this thread!

    I’m on the board for a county-wide environmental nonprofit focused on preserving waterways (namely a specific river that runs through the county) and sustainable farming along that river.

    I think we’ve getting away from our purpose the last couple years. We’ve been on a donation decline with donors, and I feel like the focus is just becoming “money” rather than our cause… which I think contributes to the decline!

    Instead of several small events a year (free up to $25), we’re only doing 3-4 big events where tickets are $50-$200 to attend (one of them is $50, the other three are over $100!). The only people attending are those who can afford it AND already support us, because they’re the only ones invested enough to pay $100 for a dinner.

    And instead of focusing on sustainable stuff, we’re going for cheap (i.e. for those $100 dinners, instead of buying recycled or edible silverware…. Or paying for regular silverware to be washed… we’re buying plastic). Same with any “giveaways” – we used to give out reusable bags for farmers’ markets. Last year and this year’s giveaway is a cheap plastic novelty item that’ll end up in a landfill.

    I’ve voiced my concerns but I feel the reactions are just courtesy “thanks for your opinions” and “we’ll think about it” or “maybe in the future but right now…”

    I’m frustrated. And I don’t know how to make them see that we’re losing our purpose and failing to attract anyone new – especially among younger generations – to our cause. I feel like I’m getting sidelined from event planning and just doing marketing/promo stuff… and I’m getting some slack for not bringing in more people!

    I’m honestly thinking about just doing a slow fade from the group and then not reapplying for the board next year…

    1. kbeers0su*

      Have you done any assessment? I would survey your members/supporters- both those who are still in and those who have recently left- and get their feedback. Especially for folks who have left who used to be invested I’d want to know what made them leave. That kind of critical feedback might open the other board members’ eyes to the issues you brought up here.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        That’s a good idea… hearing it from more (and other) people would definitely help give my concerns some weight (or maybe find out the problem is something totally different! Who knows!) .

    2. drago cucina*

      I feel you. It’s frustrating when the actions are contrary to your mission. We’re having our 2nd new building anniversary party tomorrow and unveiling of our new mini-botanical garden plans. People thought I was crazy, but all our plates, cups, flatware are made from sustainable products. The plates are made from sugar cane and look very nice.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        That sounds awesome! In my experience the recycled or recyclable silverware and dishes look really nice! The one “utensils/dishes” battle I won last year was for our priciest event – and I won it on the basis that the sustainable products looked much nicer than plastic. And people paying almost $200 for a fancy meal expect more than plastic!

    4. dr_silverware*

      It sounds like you’re falling into the future trap, and I’m sorry! It means way more work for you to get out of it. The only way I’ve found to overcome the “hm, sounds interesting, we’ll keep it in mind” response is to actually do the thing you’re proposing.

      You mentioned it was hard to just win the sustainable silverware battle, so I know I’m talking like this is open-and-shut when it’s not necessarily. Just, who do you need, and what kind of money do you need to do the actual organization of a small event that you want to put on? It’s best if you can present the event as a cheap, new, painless thing for the board to do that you’ve really almost accomplished anyway. And then you have something you can push for that’s not retreading the same argument grounds you’ve had before.

    5. Whats In A Name*

      I get your frustration – especially when it seems like you aren’t being heard, even when advice or ideas are solicited. I was you once, but I turned my thoughts around by looking at what other groups were doing and paying attention to what made me want to donate, especially on an ongoing basis, to an organization. And that’s where the money is – repeat donors. Find those people. You need new – always…but you need recurring more.

      If you’re involvement stemmed from interest in your mission and it seems like your events don’t support your mission that can also be disheartening. But here’s the bummer about working with associations and non-profits – it still boils down to the numbers. Our state chapter of The American Heart Association brings in the most money from events like fried catfish lunches and hot dog sales. Not in line with their mission but it allows them to raise lots money to fund research and other programs they offer to people who need them.

      Which leads me to a question/suggestion: Have you all done a evaluation to determine the value of events? I.E. “What makes a successful event?” side note:: I do think one thing with events these days is that there are just too many of them and people are sick of going to them! True story!

      Small $25 ticket events can seem like ways to bring in more money because more people are willing to attend but these often take the most time and effort to put on and you end up making a very small amount of money compared to what the “cost” was – example, we used to have an event on the board I am on (NOT – AHA) that was highly attended (our most “popular” event of the year). However, after 3 years we did an evaluation – if each of our 15 board members wrote a $40 check we would actually make more money than this event brought in and save hours and hours of volunteer hours that could have been used to help with other initiatives or events.

      And don’t think only people already invested will spend $100 on your dinners or tickets. I am sure of your area but I was surprised by how untrue this was once I got more involved in philanthropic organizations. Sometimes they want the tax deduction, sometimes they want a date night…the reasons are amazing that I have heard for buying these tickets.

      For your higher priced events (or any of them) is there a live or silent auction? If there is no live or silent auction people are sometimes willing to pay the higher price because they just spend the money and that’s it. There’s no other “hook”. But if you do this you have to advertise you are doing this via ticket sales. I will pay $100 per ticket to go have drinks and eat before I”ll pay $50 and sit through auctions.

      This is probably way more than you were hoping to get, and I am not trying to sway you to stay or not – I get that it’s frustrating. Like I said, I was you once, but being able to re-frame my thoughts and hopefully you can too. I say give it another year!

    6. Leslie Knope*

      I 100% get you. I’m on the board of a small non profit and I feel like I’m the curmudgeonly one who always has a contrary view (and I’m the youngest of the group). What I have found most helpful is to try and see what is the most critical/impactful thing to target–very a la “choose your battles”–and then just go after that. It might be price point, or event location, and let the smaller details that really don’t have a huge impact be taken over by someone else. That has REALLY helped me be more calm and not consistently frustrated.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      You may have run your time with this board. It happens as people can only go so far and then someone else steps in.

      Is your group’s financials online so that people can see how their money is used? Do people know how much of their dinner ticket actually goes to things that make a difference?

      Is each board member actively looking for new members for the group?

      Are other board members offering ideas of what to do or are you the only one?

      Sometimes boards have a person or several who approach area philanthropists. Is there anyone who does that for your cause?

      Can you talk to the president of the board about these concerns? Maybe you just need to get buy-in from somewhere?

      Lots of questions, sorry. It’s fine to just announce you will not seek another term. And you don’t have to explain why or you can say that you need to take care of other things at the moment.

  25. Anon Coward*

    I’m struggling managing an employee with Asperger’s and can use some advice. When I give course correction feedback, such as “You have completed a task ABC way. In the future, I need you to do it XYZ way. Can you do that?” – I’m faced with arguments that, if I didn’t know he was Asperger’s, I’d consider insubordination and flat out delusional. He will argue he only did it ABC because I told him to (not true), but I refuse to engage him on this. I keep telling him that, moving forward, this is how you need to do it. He keeps going back to, “but you told me ABC!”. This back and forth will continue for as long as I’m participating. When I try to conclude the conversation, he shifts to a different argument of “What if you change your mind in the future? What then?”. There will be several more forms of arguments until I end the conversation, not knowing if he just cannot grasp what I’m asking, or if he’s just very combative (which I understand is a symptom of Asperger’s).

    I’m sorry that this isn’t the most politically correct thing to say, but it drives me crazy! How can I communicate with him better?

    1. ThatGirl*

      Uh. I’m not an expert, though I do know people on the spectrum… I do not think being combative is a symptom. I think this guy’s kinda being a jerk. Generally ASD people react well to concrete, dispassionate feedback – this does not seem typical to me.

      1. Sunflower*

        This is where I’m at. And if this is a symptom of this, sounds like he needs to be in a job where processes are CLEARLY laid out and there is no deviation from them. You’re beyond reasonable accommodation at this point it sounds to me.

      2. Liz2*

        Some can learn to “stim” on arguing, it’s a feedback loop and a form of socialization. But you can stop the conversation “This matter is closed. This is the new expectation.” Or acknowledge “Change can be difficult but this is part of the new process.”

      3. Bonky*

        I’ve managed people with Asperger’s, and there are also several more that I don’t manage at my workplace – and I agree, being combative is not the norm (although for some you can end up in a position where it is, if you’re not being clear enough). Very, very clear, concrete, dispassionate feedback is the way to go, and I’ve often found that my Aspie colleagues actually react better to negative feedback presented in that way than some of my colleagues who are not on the spectrum do.

        If he’s arguing with you, have you given him feedback on that reaction? You can explain that it’s not normative, that it’s not considered professional, and that the way you expect feedback to be received among all the people you work with is X, Y and Z.

    2. Christy*

      A reasonable accommodation is only reasonable if he is still able to do the job. It sounds like he’s past the point of being able to do the job effectively if he’s being so combative. I’d see if it’s possible to move him out of the job, honestly.

    3. EW*

      Have you tried bringing up the larger picture? Maybe how you’re communicating these requirements verbally isn’t the best way for him. I personally do better when specifics for completing something are communicated visually (either in writing, or a picture/drawing, etc.). I’m just not an auditory learner so sometimes I misunderstand or it just doesn’t register. I try to work on this for myself, but when my managers put requirements in email form it really helps me.

    4. animaniactoo*

      #1) Document. So that when he tells you that you told him to do it ABC way, you can say “No, here is the guideline I gave you/e-mail I sent outlining how to do this.

      #2) “If it changes in the future, I will let you know then and you will need to change it then. Until then, I need you to do it XYZ way.” (Prep him for the idea that it may change in the future and you are only requesting he do it this way at this point in time, not until forever and a day.

      #3) Talk to him about his combativeness and the idea that you need to have easier conversations with him. Ask him what methods would work best for him to give him direction that you need him to follow. He might have some workable stuff that would be (relatively) easy to accommodate.

      #4) If he’s truly that combative that it’s unproductive to work with him, the Asperger’s is not a reason to keep trying.

      On a side note, it sounds like he’s getting stuck on the “following the rules” thing, so you could potentially pull that off the table. Kill the “You did it ABC way” and just go directly to “From now on, I need you to do this XYZ way”.

      1. Anon Coward*

        I think #3 is especially valid here. I will try this during our one on one this afternoon. Thanks!

      2. Jenbug*

        Definitely #1 is SUPER important.

        Either have the conversation and send an email to follow up or send the email and then go over it together.

    5. Professor Moriarty*

      Can you email him the feedback and new instructions? That way it would be harder for him to argue with you.

      Otherwise, just be very blunt. Refuse to engage past one rebuttal of his argument. Tell him what you need to tell him then walk away. It will feel super weird and rude to begin with but you’ll get used to it!

    6. AndersonDarling*

      I know exactly how your employee feels. Not that this is what is going on, but I had a boss that would give me directions on how to handle x/y/z and then he’d forget because the conversation was a year ago. But part of my Aspergers is that I remember all verbal conversations. All of them. If there was a conversation last week about q/r/s I would not relate that to the x/y/z conversation form a year ago, but everyone else in the room would know that q/r/s should be handled the same way as x/y/z.
      I need to be trained the right way the first time, because those instructions become like a law. If the processes are flexible, then I need to be told that at the time so I understand that it is OK the bend the rules. If I’m taught one method then told, “well, we’re going to skip steps 5-8 because the CEO needs this in one hour”…it’s like my head breaks.
      I’ve learned a lot of flexibility over the last 5 years, but it was hard.

      1. writelhd*

        I can concur with this from the experience of a spouse with Apsergers. Both in the remembering things people said a long time ago that themselves forgot about (or maybe didn’t mean to be taken quite so rigidly) and in the troubles with being flexible when something said later contradicts that. I have absolutely had the experience of “but you told me X a year go, I can’t process that now you’re telling me Y, because you told me X…” when I barely remember if I did say X or not, and if I did say X I probably hadn’t meant it to be taken as set in stone forever. I don’t know if that’s your situation or not, but I at least can concur I’ve experienced this.

        In which case, I would submit that not engaging with the response of “but you told me to do it ABC way!” may be a mistake. I know you don’t want to argue, but if that’s what he remembers, (right or wrong,) it may be the holdup point he’s stuck on that’s making it hard for him to get to the message about future course of action. In which case engaging on that point could help unstick him. People with apsergers often do have really good memories, so entertain the possibility that you *might* have said ABC at some point or something that could have been interpreted as such, give him the benefit of that doubt, and then be direct and honest about it. “I do not think I told you ABC, but it’s possible I’m not remembering as well as you. However, going forward, disregard ABC and do XYZ, until I tell you otherwise. And here is why XYZ is better…” Acknowledging his perception while clarifying your position may help. (The “until I tell you otherwise” builds in some flexibility for yourself later, and the explaining why XYZ better is useful for someone who thinks a lot about *why* things are done a certain way, which some people do and some people don’t, but my spouse absolutely does.)

        I agree that combativeness is not characteristic a trait of aspergers, but combativeness can be some people’s human response to being upset by something, and it is reasonable that remembering something that’s now not true can be a point of upset for somebody with aspergers. Or anyone, really. But it’s also absolutely OK to point out that’s not acceptable behavior.

    7. Artemesia*

      I’d up the ante here. You not only need him to do the thing XYZ way you need him to shut the f up about it. So give him the feedback in writing if it involves a process. Perhaps write it down in his presence and when he pushes back, then make it clear to him that he cannot argue when he is given feedback. He is expected to listen and modify his behavior; arguing with the boss is not acceptable. Things other people would infer, need to be explicit with someone like this.

    8. Jessie the First (or second)*

      Combativeness is not really an aspect of Asperger’s. You are ascribing your employee’s jerky personality to Asperger’s, but it sounds as if he may simply be a jerk.

      Now, it may be that routine is incredibly important to him and he gets unnerved by changes, but that is a different issue. Really, I would urge you to manage him according to the needs of your business. Label behavior inappropriate when it is inappropriate, and end a conversation when it gets combative or argumentative.

    9. Temperance*

      It sounds like he’s a jerk who is on the spectrum. This isn’t ASD behavior, this is insubordination and jerk behavior.

      I know many people on the spectrum, and the rude ass comments and actions are not standard by any means. Even the ASD dude that I’m not particularly fond of because he is unable to empathize with others as part of his disorder (as he explained to me) isn’t rude or mean like this.

      People with ASP are not combative as a rule.

    10. paperfiend*

      That sounds so much like my son, who also has Asperger’s (but is not in the workforce yet). It sounds like he’s getting “stuck” on the first way he learned/did the task. With my son, it’s not so much that he’s combative as that he needs help mentally adjusting when things change.

      One thing that *may* help is writing out the way he completed the task (or the steps he followed), printing that out, and bringing it with you when you go talk to him. Then when you’re describing the “new” (or corrected) way to do it, you can take a pen and cross things out, draw arrows to rearrange, etc. There’s something about seeing the changes on a physical object that helps my son get “un-stuck” when in situations like this. Plus it gives him a reference he can keep nearby.

    11. Observer*

      It actually probably doesn’t matter if this is a symptom of Aspergers or not, so I wouldn’t go down that rabbit hole. The question is can he do the job, with or without reasonable accommodation? Allowing someone to endlessly argue every instruction they don’t like and any negative feed back doesn’t sound like reasonable accommodation. So, you just need to focus on this behavior.

      Document what’s happening, and talk to whoever you need to about this. In terms of communicating, I would say a few things.

      1. You say that you don’t engage, but you clearly are or these discussions would not be happening. So, REALLY don’t engage. “But you said blah”. “No. You need to do x, y and z.” “But you SAID.” “This is the end of the conversation.” “But you said!” Walk away, dismiss him to his workplace or move on to the next topic you need to discuss. “What if you change your mind?” “That’s not relevant. You still need to do X,Y, and Z.” Same deal with repetition. Respond to yet another argument by walking away, dismissing him or moving on to the next agenda item.

      2. Follow up each conversation with a very simple and straightforward email recapping what you told him. ie “Going forward you need to do task x by doing A, B and C”.

      3. NO hinting or assuming he will “get something”. Spell it out very, very clearly.

    12. Lily in NYC*

      All I can think of is to put instructions in writing so there can’t be any pushback later.

    13. Mimmy*

      Everyone else has given you excellent feedback, but just wanted to add a thought or two.

      Combativeness is definitely not a trait of Aspergers or other autism spectrum disorders (sorry, lack of a better term). Under the ADA, any sort of behavior that is considered inappropriate for the workplace does not have to be excused by the disability and it shouldn’t be. However, I do think employers should talk with the employee and discuss reasonable ways that can help them perform their job more effectively–I believe everyone has their individual preferences, disability or not.

      I’m not well-versed on effectively managing people with ASD, so I unfortunately don’t have any specific suggestions. I will say, though, that if his behavior continues after you try to communicate reasonably with him, then you probably have grounds to go through whatever your company’s disciplinary policies are.

    14. Sas*

      Wow I can see this in someone I know. (But, not going to say who.) Believe me, that person is not trying to be an ass. “which I understand is a symptom of Asperger’s). ” It can be out of frustration. In writing, or ending the conversation yourself by saying the ending differently, remaining calm, these can be helpful things for you to do. There are some really good suggestions on this one

    15. zora*

      I agree with others about his combativeness being him being a jerk, not a symptom of Asperger’s.

      But, I have worked with people on the spectrum who do have a lot of difficulty with change. And I have found it helped a lot to acknowledge where they were at, and the situation. It made a huge difference that once it was acknowledged they were able to start to move on to the change.

      Have you tried saying, “Yes, I realize we originally had decided to do ABC. And I know it is frustrating to have to change how we do things all the time. I am doing my best to make sure we don’t have to change for no reason. But, in this case, we now need to change to XYZ because [reasons]. Can we talk about how you are going to make this change?”

      Then if he really is being a jerk, and he repeats “But you told me!” that’s when you say: “Yes, I already acknowledged that this is a change. I”m sorry that’s frustrating, but I can’t keep talking about ABC. I understand it’s hard sometimes, but I need you to do XYZ now, without talking about ABC anymore.” And I like what someone else said about “Well, if we do have to change again, I will let you know as soon as I find out. But for now, I am trying to make sure we come up wtih the best process so that we don’t have to change in the future. Does that make sense?”

      I know, it’s not workable to constantly coddle everyone’s feelings as a manager. But sometimes that one acknowledgement that you do hear them and validate that it is frustrating can help people move on from their frustration. I know that is true for me,and I’m not even on the spectrum!

    16. Leslie Knope*

      I’m sorry I’m chuckling over here. :) My brother is on the spectrum and this is 100% some of my interaction with him. He’s extremely high functioning and incredibly intelligent. He remembers all things he hears and thinks in pictures (which I find incredibly cool!).

      In my experience the frustration or combative nature is just how frustration is expressed when there is a lack of understanding.

      Here’s my advice.
      1. Write it out and email your expectations to him being overtly clear. No euphemisms. No sarcasm.
      2. Try to explain why XYZ way is more important than ABC way. Often because my sibling is seriously gifted at what he does it’s hard for him to understand why anyone would choose to do something differently, and often he views it as wrong. So he feels it’s actually better for the project/org if he does it his way. Part of the difficulty in understanding other’s emotions or interacting socially is from not being able to easily put themselves in your shoes. “XYZ way is better for 1, 2, 3, reasons which has to do with my view as a manger managing R, S, T situations. As your manager I need you to do XYZ because ABC causes this issues which are not acceptable.”
      3. Explicitly explain the consequences of not following your instructions.
      4. Allow them a window of time to process. When presented with the alternative way of doing something, my sibling will often get frustrated and need 24 hours to process. Often the phrasing “I will give you X amount of time to think this over and process what I am telling you to do and we can revisit to discuss your questions.”
      5. If necessary, take action, even termination if necessary. I’ve seen growth in several people on the spectrum that I know when a real-life consequence was handed down due to their lack of flexibility. That may be an important thing for them to realize that this is what happens if directions aren’t followed.

      And most of all, thank you. I’m so grateful to people that are aware of what’s going on with those on the spectrum and try to tailor their management style to the employee. But as several others have mentioned, you’re not expected to completely change your day-to-day operation if an employee can’t perform what you need.

      1. zora*

        these are all great suggestions!! I especially like #4: specifying how much time they can have to think it over and discuss questions. That I think would be really helpful for the folks I have worked with.

  26. Warship*

    Dad fell ill on new year’s and we got an unexpected terminal diagnosis
    mid-month. I was scrambling to coordinate care from a different state and get the care for him since he lives alone.

    Boss came up to me and asked how I was doing then started talking work. He then states “January has been a great month for you”

    I know I made a face.

    3. Collie*

      I’m so sorry; that’s a really tough thing to deal with and it’s exhausting. Please take care. <3

    4. orchidsandtea*

      I’m sorry. I had similar comments after a loss last year. I’m still feeling bitter.

      Be kind to yourself, okay? Give yourself a little extra grace, and know that it’s just going to be hard for a bit. It’s remarkable that you’re still doing a great job at work.

    7. Alice*

      I’m sorry about your father.
      Bravo for keeping up such great work when you’re stressed and worried.
      Your boss is a piece of work. Sure, we all say foolish things sometimes, but sometimes you just have to take it on the chin and apologize. (Boss you, not you you, obviously)

  27. Unemployed*

    Question:
    Background – I moved to the same state as my husband last January. I got a job in my field (safety), but it ended up being at a dysfunctional company. I decided to quit without a job lined up because it was causing me panic attacks and my husband was tired of having me come home from work every day sad and frustrated. I left on really good terms with the company (April last year).
    I studied and passed the FE in June. I’ve been looking for jobs as an entry level civil engineer, manufacturing engineer, and a better suited safety engineer (Workers Comp was what was the bad fit with my previous position). I had a few interviews in August and then nothing. I did a six week project at a company I used to work for in November/December helping them with their safety program for the money and additional work history/reference.
    It’s now January, and I’m still lacking a job. There’s not a lot of positions open because of where I live (I’m on the wrong side of a large city, jobs are 1.5-2 hours commute). I’m starting to volunteer at my local library for something on my resume. Is there anything else I can be doing to position myself better for companies to hire me?

    1. Construction Safety*

      Do you have a local chapter of the Associated Builders & Contractors, Assoc.? They used to have a searchable database of all their members with contact info. I once sent out 65 faxes to all the companies with more than $10M in revenue. I received back 3 contacts and a job.

      1. Unemployed*

        Yeah, my issue is they are on the other side of the large city near me :( I really want to keep my commute under two hours.

    2. A Plain-Dealing Villain*

      That sucks about not being where the jobs are. I know the feeling. Try looking up the ASSE local chapter. They could be some good contacts and they have a job board on their website. Also, as a member you can get really cheap professional liability insurance. I mention the insurance because OSHA training and loss control work are both in high demand right now and doing some contracting may help you get somewhere faster than the unrelated volunteering.

      1. Unemployed*

        Thanks! I haven’t really wanted to go into the contracting on my own, but maybe I should. The company last year was willing to hire me part time so I didn’t need separate liability insurance.

  28. animaniactoo*

    We have a new HR person. She seems promising. Among the most promising things she’s said so far “I’m an HR professional, I can figure it out” in reference to the lack of clear documentation for how to handle things like payroll and our FSAs not having been setup as they were supposed to be. And “It wouldn’t be appropriate for me to be connected to anyone here on social media” in reference to someone thinking she was asking for their twitter name to connect with them. She was just interested in seeing if it was something fun (she says, could have been looking to see what they post, but I don’t think so) I have hopes here…

  29. anonamasaurus*

    Is anyone else still experience FLSA drama? Work rant: My workplace decided to convert my position to a 10-month a year position at my current salary, under the threshold (higher ed staff position). This coincided with my boss being on maternity leave (which I covered, doing most of her work in addition to mine), so instead of being effective immediately it was effective upon her return in mid-January with the agreement that my ‘months off’ would be nov/dec 2017. While I was at a conference 2 weeks ago I got an email saying the agreement would go into effect basically immediately and I would be off Jan. 23 – mid-March. When I questioned this (because I’ve made plans around being off at the end of the year) I got told never mind, actually the whole agreement is no longer valid. Except I don’t have that clause in my written agreement (apparently everyone else does). HR won’t give me a straight answer, my boss is totally clueless, and we were supposed to meet this afternoon with HR and the meeting just got pushed to next week. I’m super annoyed, because I’m burnt out, the conditions of my job apparently will continue to change with little to no notice and I’ve just spent the past 3 months cleaning up a bunch of messes my boss left on her leave. Also if I hadn’t questioned it I would be off right now, but as it stands I’m having a hard time taking time off because no one does my work when I’m out and it’s a busy time of year for me. I work an average of 50 hours a week and am also in graduate school right now. /endrant

  30. Pup Seal*

    I had an interview last week (the one where I was interviewed by a committee of seven people), and I heard back earlier this week. Their response was they decided to advertise the job some more but I’m still under consideration for the job. In other words, they’re saying they weren’t happy with anyone they interviewed. I guess that’s okay since I’m not sure I would be a good fit in their work culture anyway. Funny, the job is at the business school I attended during college, and even back then I didn’t feel like I fit in. Has anybody ever declined a job because of work culture?

    1. Leatherwings*

      Yeah, I have. I got a few jobs offers at once and declined one based on culture alone. It was just a really stiff, business professional only-suit everyday type place which isn’t really my style. I knew I would like the work but wouldn’t be happy going to work in that environment everyday in the long run.

    2. voluptuousfire*

      I have in the past. The culture of the company (law firm) was too stiff for me. Also the interview was fairly short (an hour between 20 min phone screen and 35-40 min in person, including about 10 mins of waiting). That didn’t sit right with me. I had taken jobs in the past where I was hired after a brief interview process like that and it turned out to be a horror show. It’s rarely a good sign when you’re not hired for being the best candidate overall, just the best out of a handful they interviewed.

  31. committee member*

    My work is considering a sick leave bank for employees. In theory, I support that idea and I’m on the committee to research and implement it. In practice, I’m a bit apprehensive as it seems most of the committee wants the donating employees privy to personal and identifying information about the receiving employee (name and possibly even medical reason for leave). I am concerned it would turn into a popularity contest and would prefer employees donated days without a specific person being involved. Thoughts on how to proceed?

    1. Collie*

      Perhaps give the receiving employee the option of sharing that information with donors when the need arrives but make it clear there’s no obligation to?

    2. Warship*

      I like our system. There is no bank it is simply a form and you name who you donate too but you can remain anonymous. The policy dictates that it can only be used for emergencies and the donar aren’t aware unless the person requesting the leave divulged. HR is in charge of determining eligibility.

      1. not really a lurker anymore*

        Yes, this seems similar to what my job does.

        HR determines if someone is eligible and sends out flyers/emails stating the process to donate time. I think you have to include the name of the person you are donating to though, now that I think about it. We can donate vacation or comptime only, as far as I’m aware.

    3. Warship*

      I also like our system since PTO is only donated when there is a need. I feel like people are a lot more likely to donate to Joe in accounting whose leg was lost in a car accident then nameless folks decided by a committee I don’t know.

      1. LCL*

        Our system is the same way. No bank, just notices from HR that Arya needs sick leave donations. It is up to the donor if you want the employee to know you donated.

    4. Jaydee*

      We have a sick leave bank. If you have more than X hours of accrued sick leave, you can donate some or all of your excess once a quarter. If you use up all your accrued sick leave, you can request up to X days from the sick leave bank. There are criteria for when you’re eligible to request from the sick leave bank, and how many times you can use it total. But that way there’s no popularity contest or assessment of whether a person “deserves” the leave.

      You need to have a system that is applied fairly to all employees. That way there’s no risk of someone saying “well, I’ll donate leave to Jane who has cancer but not to Fergus who broke his leg skiing” or “I’ll donate to Wakeen because he’s on my team and I really like him, but not to Martha because I don’t even know her and I’ve heard she’s a slacker.”

      1. committee member*

        I totally agree! I’m a little dismayed at how many people seem to want to judge the worthiness of other people’s sick leave.

    5. Temperance*

      My office has a PTO bank, but they will also ask for special-case leave if someone has an issue that doesn’t fit within the parameters of the bank, which are related to long-term illnesses.

  32. Spills*

    Has anyone successfully negotiated a remote work agreement right off the bat? I am being “relocated” (laid off) from my company, and the timing is terrible. I had planned to stay at this company for another year, and then start looking to relocate to Denver (from NYC). Now with this lay-off, I am being forced to change jobs earlier than I expected. I was applying to jobs in NYC, and on a whim, applied to a job in Denver, that has turned out to be a really great match so far. I have had two interviews, and I think they are making preparations to fly my out there for a third interview now. However, I am now thinking that while this might be the right position, the timing may not be right. A few conflicting factors:

    1. My boyfriend is returning from 7 months abroad for a work assignment next week. The plan was that he would also return to his company for a year, and we would then start to look in Denver together.
    2. I have only been at my company for 1 year, and had a short stint of 3 months at a company before that, along with another stint of 1.5 years at the company before that. I was hoping to stay here for 2 years or so, to build back up my resume. (Actually was hoping to transfer internally to a Denver office, but that is a moot point now)
    3. My boyfriend and I have just signed a lease on an apartment on Jan 1, for 1 year. I found out about the relocation offer/lay-off 3 days after that.

    With all these factors, I think that it is not an ideal time to move to Denver. However, my other concern is that if I do not move to Denver now, I will need to accept a job in NYC, and then will need to stay there for 2-3 years at least, which pushes back our plans quite a bit. With that in mind, I have been playing around with the idea of asking the company to work remotely for 6 months to a year, to allow me to relocate, and my boyfriend time to search for a new job and relocate as well, as well as find a subletter for our lease. A year would be ideal.

    Is this outrageous? Plausible? I’d be willing to travel back and forth as much as needed, if that makes a difference, and I’m an event coordinator, so travel to/from locations is expected anyway. Thoughts or advice, anyone?

    1. LisaLee*

      Honestly? I think I would just suck it up and move early. Living in NYC I think you’ll have an easy time finding a subletter, and you get all the chaos (moving, new job, separation from boyfriend) over at once.

      1. LisaLee*

        I realize that “suck it up” maybe sounded a bit harsh, and I don’t mean it to be! I just meant that I think its a big ask for a new job and you’ll have to go through the hassle of moving sometime.

        1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

          I read this more as “rip off the band-aid quick” – as in, go through the job/moving hassle once now rather than doing it twice (NYC now and Denver later). It can seem overwhelming, but if Denver is where you want to be long term anyway, and it sounds like a great job may be coming your way, sounds like the stars are aligning. Besides, you have no idea what the market in Denver could look like in two years either.

          I’d go for it. Things like this have a way of working out (the right subletter comes along, relocation assistance is in the package and you weren’t planning on it, etc)

    2. Moose*

      Ya, I would agree that if you get the job in Denver, you should move now. You never know what’s going to happen in two years, it’s probably never going to feel like exactly the right time. If you’re really committed and you have an opportunity now (a job that you’re really interested in that is also interested in you) then you should take it, even if it means getting a sub letter and leaving the boyfriend behind for a few months.

      I really say this from personal experience, my boyfriend and I have been talking about moving to Boston for years now; we say at the end of each year that we’ll “re-evaluate next year” and then next year comes and for whatever reason it still doesn’t feel like the right timing for jobs/leaving our apartment/ect. At some point, if you’re serious about moving, I think you just have to do it.

    3. Mela*

      Why does your boyfriend need to work a year after he returns from his assignment? What’s wrong with you going to Denver and him starting a job search ASAP and following when it happens?

      If you get this job in Denver, you can ask to push your start date 4-8 weeks out to give yourself time to move. That’s super normal and it will give you time to find the subletter and move. I’m getting the feeling that you want everything timed so that you both find a job at the same time so you can move together, but that’s just not how it works in reality. Most of the time there will be a gap and it would be great if one of you had a solid job to fall back on if the other job doesn’t pan out for whatever reason after moving across the country.

  33. Cruciatus*

    I have a question for those who work in a university and have switched roles. I’m currently an administrative assistant for a college. Recently a job popped up in the library (non-librarian) and I’m interested. I’d like to get out of the AA role. I’ve tried for other positions at my campus (advisor, mentor) but didn’t receive anything besides a normal rejection (though I was qualified for those roles). I do have library experience and it’s more money, but let’s say many years from now I want to switch again, or an advisor role comes up, or whatever, would it be weird to go from an administrative assistant to a library employee to something else? It’s not something I’m currently planning to do, but I’m just trying to think ahead to potential futures. I guess I worry the library role is less student focused (it’s more about ILLs, other loans, and not really a clerk position) and if I tried to get into a more student focused role later on it might be a problem. Are there any pros/cons I might not be thinking of either way. What do ya’ll think?

    1. Wing Girl*

      I’ve worked at the same higher ed institution for almost 30 years, changing jobs 7 times over those years. I’ve found that having worked in different offices/divisions has helped me to grow and advance within the organization because it give me a broader perspective of the institution. I more fully understand some processes because I’ve been involved from varying perspectives over the years.

    2. Nynaeve*

      It depends on your university. Some like having internal transfers to keep people in the system; others are more rigid about exact job qualifications. Ours is the former: one person moved from library to student affairs and another moved from financial aid to library.

      That said, if you’re looking to eventually move into a role very different from the job you’re applying for, you’ll need to think of ways to build the skills you’ll eventually need for the job you want and give some thought to how you’ll explain the “narrative” of your job progression.

      Good luck either way!

    3. Janeitenoir*

      I’m in a similar boat to you. I’m in an AA role for a library, getting my MLIS online. I’d like to transition to more traditional ‘library’ work in my organization, either with students or the collections, but I’m not sure how to go about it. I have some traditional library experience, but I feel it’s not being used as effectively as it could be.

      As for your situation, I don’t think the transitions are too far apart. Do you have to deal with people or students occasionally in the ILL position? If you do, then it’s probably okay. Otherwise, I’d try to get on committees that do deal with students – maybe the course reserves committee or something similar. That involves ILL and students together.

    4. Lily in NYC*

      I might be wrong, but aren’t library jobs incredibly competitive? I have a feeling you will be up against tons of candidates with a masters in library science. But to your question about moving to a third position later, that’s not a big deal at all. It’s very common for admins to move into a few different roles before they settle on a career (unless the person is a career admin of course).

      1. Language Lover*

        Librarian jobs are competitive but it depends on the kind of role Cruciatus is applying for in the library. They say non-librarian so I would assume the MLIS is not a requirement. If the job is one that doesn’t require an MLIS, having one could be seen as more of a negative than a positive. I would guess that 99% of the time people with an MLIS who take a non-MLIS position are looking to move into a librarian position with you or elsewhere. As someone with the degree, I get it. As an employer, it can be tough to manage. They either get frustrated with their lack of movement up the ladder or they don’t stick around very long as they hop onto the next opportunity that will move them further to their goal.

        So sometimes a person with the right set of skills and library experience but no MLIS is preferable to someone with the degree. When I first started to hire, I was told to avoid the degree holders for paraprofessional positions for those reasons. I didn’t and will evaluate everyone on what I think they can bring to the position but after hiring both degree holders and non-degree holders, I see what they mean.

        How applicable those skills would be outside of the library would depend on the position but having an admin background is something to fall back on too.

  34. That awkward moment when...*

    Anonymous for this one because I comment regularly.

    Some background: I met my significant other at work. I only worked there for a few months before realizing it wasn’t a good fit, but he is still there after a year and a half, and thriving. He now works in a division different from the one we started in.

    My SO recently found “adult films” of Brenda, formerly a training coordinator, now a manager at their large, well-known company. The “films” are on a free, high-traffic “adult” website. SO showed me to see what I thought, and it is definitely her; even her real name is used! She has very distinct facial features and a unique-sounding voice. The videos are captioned like “coworker Brenda does XXX.” They’re not filmed secretly– the camera is close up, so she’s obviously aware of it.

    Obviously my SO is not going to tell anyone at work, including HR, because it’s her decision to do things like this. But is there anything he SHOULD do? Our biggest concern is that her real name is used and that a coworker appears to be participating and filming. Brenda is a single mother of at least one young child.

    HELP! This is so awkward!

      1. Liz2*

        Yup. I can guarantee you’ve met a lot of other people in your life who have similar backgrounds and you have no idea. Consenting adults, not business related, pipe down and move on.

    2. ASJ*

      I agree. It’s none of his business. You think it’s awkward now, it will be even MORE awkward if he says anything. Brenda is an adult. I think you should err on the side of believing she knows what she’s doing and say nothing.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I really think he should just keep it to himself. She may be discovered later, but unless it’s adversely affecting her work, there’s no reason for him to be the one to speed up the discovery.

    4. TMA*

      Yeahhhh, I would just ignore it. She presumably knows the videos were shot. My only concern would be if the videos were posted without her consent, but I have no idea how your SO would bring it up.

    5. Karanda Baywood*

      She’s an adult, so is it really anyone’s business? She obviously is aware that her name is out there.

    6. Calacademic*

      Follow Dan Savage’s advice in situations like this: leave it alone. If the woman knows it’s out there, she may want it out there (that’s a thing for some people). If she doesn’t know it’s out there, there is very little she can do to retrieve it, and telling her would only cause her anguish.

    7. Project Manager*

      The others are saying it isn’t business-related – but it sounds like these films may have been made AT THE WORKPLACE???? (Since they have “coworker” in the title and you say they are filmed by a coworker) If that’s the case, and if the workplace is identifiable, then I think you do have to bring it up with someone. I’m not sure who, though.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Coworker is probably the title for the fantasy scenario–that doesn’t mean they were filmed at the workplace. Brenda could have met the coworker on the site and they just happened to work at the same place. Though I really question their judgment for not hiding their identity, unless OP’s partner is absolutely sure the videos were filmed at work, I wouldn’t say anything.

      1. That awkward moment when...*

        They do not, thankfully. Her last name is not included in the videos, just her first name.

    9. Lily in NYC*

      Unless it was filmed in the office, your husband should just pretend he never saw it. I’m glad your husband isn’t going to tell anyone at work – this would be the worst type of gossip. The fact that she’s a single mother means she probably needs this job and if work found out she would likely be fired.

    10. Cleopatra Jones*

      I’m confused.
      Do y’all think Brenda posted the videos on the website? Or do y’all think she consented to make the video with someone, and that may have been posted w/o her consent?

      If it’s clear that it’s the first question-walk away, leave it alone. If it’s the second one then I’m a fan of telling her it’s on there (maybe you can tell her instead of your husband). This might be some kind of revenge porn thing happening to her that she’s not aware of.

      1. That awkward moment when...*

        This had occurred to me. I don’t think Brenda is the one posting the videos.

    11. Bonky*

      I’ll bet that a huge proportion of people you know have skeletons in their closets. The fact that you’ve found out about this one doesn’t make it any of your business.

      Of course he shouldn’t do anything about it – and if you’re going to start policing people who enjoy sex consensually but differently from you and suggest they should not be around young children, you should maybe tuck away some of that prurience and consider for a moment where children come from.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I’d ignore it. If you ignore it, then it does not have to be awkward. As far as if she knows or not, I’d say if we try to rescue people we should first know that they want to be rescued. She may not know but once she finds out she may not care anyway.
      Your spouse is too far removed from the situation, I don’t think he has any ethical responsibility to inform her. Now if this was his best friend ever since kindergarten, then my answer might be different but maybe not. There’s just a lot of angles to consider.

  35. MakeItStop*

    On Monday, I was diagnosed with colitis. I’ve told one coworker this (throughout I said a few times that if I got into TMI territory to please stop me, but she seemed okay with the info I gave) and the others know something is up, but not what. I’m expecting a more specific diagnosis next week when I go to the follow-up with the doctor, but obviously until then (and probably after, depending on the diagnosis), I’ve still got to deal with symptoms, which can include frequent and lengthy restroom use.

    On top of going to the doctor a lot lately to get this diagnosed at all and coming in late one morning from being in so much discomfort, the bathroom visits are really cutting into my work time. No one has said anything to me about it and I think I’m still producing enough that it’s not a problem, but I’m wondering, once I get the diagnosis, if I should bring it up with my supervisor at all and if so, if I should do it with vague terms or more specifically (not gory details, but, y’know…). Anyone with colitis or a condition with similar symptoms have any insight? I don’t want to make the impression that I’m just going to the restroom every other hour to play Candy Crush for fifteen minutes…

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      As a recently pregnant woman who had to pee like every hour for the last 3/4 months of pregnancy, I feel your pain and sympathize. Obviously, I didn’t really have to explain myself, but I know how distracting it can be to have to disconnect from a work product at such a regular interval.
      While I haven’t been in your situation, I would lean towards not mentioning it. But I’ve been known to avoid the uncomfortable…

      1. MakeItStop*

        Did you have situations where you had to excuse yourself suddenly? How did you handle that? My supervisor has a habit of catching me for conversations on the way to the restroom and I don’t have the luxury of holding it much anymore.

        1. ace*

          “Actually, Boss, I was on my way to the restroom. Can I swing back by your office in 5 minutes?”
          If he persists (which he should know better than to do – awkward!), say: “I’m sorry, I really do need to go. I’ll find you in a few minutes.”

    2. Soupspoon McGee*

      I have Crohn’s, and when it first hit, I let my boss know I was have a stomach issue and that I was working with a doctor. I didn’t go into details, and I didn’t even have a name for it. When I got a diagnosis, I did share the name and broad details, and also a rough timeline to get back to normal (or less abnormal). But “stomach thing, working with a doctor” is all you need to share.

    3. Tahiti Dreaming*

      My son has IBS. When he feels the need to go, he has to go right then or it causes him to throw up. After you have been diagnosed, I would possibly mention it to your supervisor. You have a legitimate medical condition that requires restroom breaks. You could possibly get some documentation from your doctor and present that to your supervisor and they might say no big deal, do what you need. My son did not have to have any documentation, he just spoke to his supervisor, explained the situation, offered to get any documentation they might need, but the supervisor said there was no need, do what you need.

    4. DaisyGrrl*

      I had an employee with a similar issue. During the hiring/onboarding process, she mentioned that she had a medical condition that could cause frequent, urgent trips to the bathroom. She requested a workstation close to the bathroom for that reason. We accommodated her based on that information (and honestly, I didn’t want more details).

      So, what do you do? *If* there’s been a noticeable change in your work patterns because of the colitis, you may want to mention to your boss that you have been dealing with a medical issue recently that results in frequent bathroom breaks. This way, if anyone comments on you not being at your desk as much as previously, your boss is already aware of the reason behind it. If you anticipate an uptick in sick leave, maybe mention that (or that you may need the occasional work from home day when you’re having flare-ups). You can say that you’re committed to maintaining your productivity regardless. But I wouldn’t bother with the specific details if you don’t want to.

    5. MakeItStop*

      Thanks, everyone! I think a lot of my anxiety comes from expecting a realistically unreasonable reaction (that I would feel was reasonable because my judgment on that stuff is awful). I really appreciate all the input.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        Hi, I know you aren’t asking for actual medical advice, but I just wanted to say that my former boss had really bad ulcerative colitis and it was completely cured by having a fecal transplant. I have no idea if it might be an option for you, but his recovery was so fast and complete afterwards that I just wanted to mention it…

        1. MakeItStop*

          I have heard of that! I am waiting to see what the doctor says next week — I don’t have a specific diagnosis yet (just something in the colitis family, maybe Crohn’s; I think they’re waiting on lab work to say for sure) and find out what my treatment options are. I have to admit, a fecal transplant sounds yuck to me, but if it solves the problem…

          1. Lily in NYC*

            Oh, the ick factor is there for sure. But the good thing is that it’s such an easy procedure. Good luck to you and I’m sorry you are suffering from something that sounds so painful.

    6. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      I have IBS and I made my boss aware of issues I was having, without going into too specifically, so she was aware of my reasoning for needing time off to visit different doctors. It was much harder to handle when I was still searching for an answer/not on medication, but she’s been great and has told me that it’s not necessary to stay at events if I’m feeling sick. We also planned to attend a dedication event for work together which involved at least an hour of highway driving with no rest stop and she let me put off our departure time for two hours until I felt well enough to leave.

    7. Chaordic One*

      This sort of sounds like me before I was diagnosed with food allergies.

      I would certainly bring it up with your supervisor. Even though no one has said anything, without going into TMI you could tell your supervisor about the problem (and use the word colitis), and let him know that now that you’ve got a diagnosis you’re going to be working on dealing with the problem and that it should be less of a problem than it was in the past.

  36. Fortitude Jones*

    I’m telling my supervisor today at our monthly one-on-one that I’m going to be posting out of this division. I’ve only been here a little over a year, but it’s time for me to leave yet another division. At least this time it wasn’t because of a psycho manager – but this place is a newly sinking ship. They’re growing too fast for their own good, and the good of us adjusters, and people are dropping like flies around here due to unrealistic demands placed on us by management via our agents. Since I have connections with various other people in the company, I’m hoping to leverage that into an entirely new role because I just can’t deal with stupid clients and insureds anymore. These people have worked my last nerve. And if I can’t get a new position by June at this company, I’m leaving altogether to do something else. I’ve been with this company a little over 3 years now and was at my last firm close to three, so I think leaving close to four is reasonable.

    So many people in my current division have had enough. It’s so sad to hear the bitterness from people who were formerly happy. But upper management is desperate to become top dog in our little niche industry (even though we’re like the 4th highest grossing division in our 30+ division company) at the expense of the employees making it happen. Oh well.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      Wait, you don’t have a role yet in another division? Should you wait to tell him/her until you have something lined up?

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        No, we have to tell our supervisor’s before posting at my company – HR won’t let you post out until you do.

  37. office admin anon*

    This is probably more due to nerves from this being my first long-term (not contract/temp) office position, but…. is it a bad thing when your manager says they know you have a full plate? It’s been mentioned to me twice this week; once it was said directly to me (as in “I would like X to be a thing, but I know you have a full plate right now so it’s not a priority”) and once a coworker mentioned that our manager had said it (coworkers B and C wanted to push one of their tasks onto me because I’m the admin assistant and they feel that the task is too admin for them; coworker A related this to me and said my manager had shut it down [for now anyway] because I had enough on my plate – though A warned me she thinks it will come up again in the future).

    So my question is, is that a bad thing? I feel it means my manager thinks I can’t handle my workload or something like that? Do I need to be doing something different?

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I think you should just ask your manager. It could be totally harmless or it could be that they think you aren’t handling things well. At the least, asking will give you a solid direction to go (keep doing what you’re doing, get reorganized or get assistance, or whatever) and it might lower your stress level :)

    2. TCO*

      It can be really nice to have a manager who recognizes your workload and proactively helps you manage it! I’d see this as a good thing, not a bad sign. I’ve worked many places where the to-do list is literally endless and so there are always “I would like X to get done, but I know that’s not realistic for you right now” type items. It’s not a bad thing if you can’t get all of those items done right now.

      If you’re nervous, you can always ask your manager, “Are you happy with the amount of work I get done and the tasks I’m able to take on? Do you have any concerns about my ability to get all of the work done that you need me to do?”

    3. Sunflower*

      I don’t think so but it’s worth bringing it up to your manager. It’s never a bad idea to check in with your manager on how you’re doing.

      I guess the question is do you think you have a full plate?

    4. Murphy*

      I don’t think it’s bad. I think they just sound aware that you already have a lot going on (which is much better than the alternative!)

    5. Jadelyn*

      I actually see it as a good thing – your manager is acknowledging that you’ve got a lot going on, rather than just heaping more things on you without considering whether you have the time to take them on. They’re also helping you prioritize by making it clear that X is not urgent and can come below other projects on your to-do list. Respect for your time, and help to keep you pointed in the right direction? Those are, in my experience, absolutely GOLDEN skills a really good boss will have.

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s a normal thing to say when you do, in fact, have a full plate. She’s acknowledging that you don’t have room for a lot more right now, which is a reflection on the workload, not on you. Don’t worry about it.

    7. Bonky*

      I consider part of my job as a manager making sure that my team are not overstretched, stressed out and overworked. That means I maintain a constant awareness of their workload, and if I think they’ve got too much on their plates and should not take more tasks on, I’ll make that clear to them and to the team tasking them.

      We’re a very communicative team and I have always explained why I do things the way I do, so everybody here understands that that’s not a criticism of them, but a way to keep them happy and motivated. If you’re worried, the very best thing you can do is to talk to you manager. Something like: “I’ve noticed you saying you think I have too much on my plate. I am worried that means you think I’m not pulling my weight.” I can pretty much guarantee you that this perception you’ve got is NOT what your manager means: and having the conversation will have the benefit of clarifying things for you and opening up the relationship between you and your manager, and hopefully making it more communicative.

      We really like to manage people who talk about this stuff to us. It’s not always clear that what’s in your head is not what’s in ours, and we like it when there’s commonality there!

  38. Gene*

    A couple of things from the radio this week:

    From NPR: Study shows that single women lower their ambition and required compensation levels because it may impact their social life. Report by Shankar Vedantam.
    http://www.npr.org/2017/01/24/511355780/research-examines-the-effects-of-gender-on-stated-ambition

    From BBC Radio 4: British MPs to crack down on sexist dress codes, especially high heels.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38737300

    This one is also featured on Evil HR Lady today:
    http://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/can-your-boss-force-you-to-wear-high-heels.html

    1. J*

      About the first, this married lady kind of does the same. I have been very happy to pursue jobs that don’t require work on nights and weekends so I can do other things in my free time. I entered the workforce during the first Silicon Valley boom when ping pong tables and nap rooms were “the future of work” and noped out from the beginning.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I look for jobs that don’t have nights and weekends so I can write. It helps me to have a regular schedule, but I can’t say I’m not ambitious. I WANNA HAVE ALL THE THINGS. If a guy can’t handle that, then I don’t want him anyway. :P A good partner would be someone who supported my ambitions, as I would do for him.

        Besides, I don’t have a social life right now so it’s no big deal!

        1. Camellia*

          Reminds me of high school (early ’70’s), when someone asked me if I would play dumb just to get a guy. I blurted out, “No! If he was that stupid I wouldn’t want HIM!”.

    2. Rebecca*

      I never understood the whole heels thing. I am one of the least graceful ladies on the planet. Me plus heels is a recipe for a twisted ankle, a bad fall, or maybe a broken bone if I take a header down the stairs. I wear flat shoes or a slight wedge heel, at the very most. It does not affect my office skills, analytical or math skills, or me emailing or talking to coworkers or customers. I don’t even own a pair of heels. Why this is even a discussion or a thing is beyond me.

  39. Question for the AAM readers*

    My boss is upset that I didn’t go to the women’s march that was held in our city. Last week she kept trying to get me to go after she found out I wasn’t going (she assumed that I was). This week she took away a project that was about to start that I was supposed to lead and instead a new employee, who my boss called her ‘best feminist friend’ will be leading it. She is also refusing to acknowledge me unless it’s absolutely necessary and she keeps making comments about how we have to appreciate our foremothers. Of course non of my make colleagues are getting the same treatment from her for not going. My female colleagues are also questioning why I didn’t go with them. I know the best thing is for me is to look for another job but I’m stuck here until I find something because I can’t afford to be without a paycheck. If anyone has dealt with a similar thing at work I would appreciate hearing how you handled a hostile boss or colleagues while you were looking for something else. Thanks all!

    1. Question for the AAM readers*

      That should say “none of my male colleagues are getting the same treatment”. Apologies for the typo.

      1. Question for the AAM readers*

        We have a three person HR department and all three of them are women who went to the march. Unfortunately it’s too late for me to blame it on a medical condition because I told them why I wasn’t going when they first questioned me about it. My female colleagues say they are ‘miffed’, ‘confused’ and ‘sad’ that I chose not to go with them and there have been implications without actually saying it that I am ‘anti-femisit’.

        1. Sunflower*

          But is HR definitely on the same train as your boss and coworkers? Just because HR went to the march doesn’t mean they don’t respect the decision to not go or think what your boss is doing is okay.

    3. LCL*

      The nonconfrontational way, which I recommend because you are stuck at this job, is to lie a bit, and blame it on a medical condition. Don’t feel bad, you have been forced into telling a lie for self preservation.
      “I am scared to be in large crowds, I panic and get anxiety attacks. I was there in spirit, but I just couldn’t go.”

      I work for a government employer. We have specific rules about politics in the workplace. Pressuring someone to go to a march, then retaliating against them if they don’t go, isn’t allowed. If someone tried on me what your boss is doing to you, I would just laugh in their face. But I would be able to keep my job, and they would be in trouble.

      1. Temperance*

        I would not blame it on a psychiatric issue, especially if OP doesn’t have one.

        I had to miss the march because I have a weakened immune system and was fighting off a bad case of bronchitis/not quite pneumonia. Something like that I think might be more … palatable?

    4. Weak Trees*

      Working in pretty much the opposite sort of environment, my first reaction was that I would love to work with people who value activism for women (or anything, really). But your boss’s behavior is wildly unprofessional and inappropriate, as well contradictory to the spirit of camaraderie she seems to be expecting among her female employees.

      While you obviously shouldn’t have to, is it too late to offer up a plausible excuse, possibly one particularly heartstring-tugging? Your dog needed surgery? Your nephew told you he’d be devastated if you couldn’t attend his fourth grade graduation ceremony? Anything at all that could temper the irrational hostility?

    5. kbeers0su*

      That’s ridiculous. Is she assuming that you should have gone just because you’re there locally? How does she know that you didn’t have some other VERY IMPORTANT thing to do? Like an appointment, or a family thing, or washing your hair? It’s none of her business, especially since it was (I’m assuming) not required for work and outside of work hours? Also, what if you couldn’t go? There are plenty of legitimate physical/mental health things that held others back from being able to attend.

      If she’s treating you differently for this it could certainly be seen as discriminatory, given that you noted that none of your male coworkers are being subjected to the same treatment. +1 to the idea of going to HR.

      1. Question for the AAM readers*

        They know my reason for not attending because I told them when I was first questioned. It wasn’t anything like a medical condition or prior plans so I can’t go back now and say that’s what it was. I am trying to ignore them and just keep my head down but it’s difficult and I need to talk to them about work related things so I can’t always ignore them.

        1. LCL*

          Maybe throw their activism back at them?
          “I thought the heart of feminism was women get to make up their own minds about things that affect their lives, and hold their own political beliefs.” Said as a statement, not a question.
          “Your bullying me about not going is EXACTLY what an agent of the patriarchy would do.”
          Of course if you think you will get fired don’t do that, just keep your head down.

          1. Camellia*

            I probably would not say the second statement, but the first one, definitely, in a very calm, matter of fact manner.

    6. Lemon Zinger*

      I would go to HR. She shouldn’t be discriminating against you because you didn’t attend a non-work-related event.

      2. N.J.*

        Unfortunately, there is no protection in US federal and in most state law for discrimination/retaliation based on political activities. The OP’s workplace is abhorrent, but she has no protection. (A quick Google search indicated she would in New York, D.C. And maybe one other state). She might be able to discuss discrimination based on how the boss is treating female vs male workers as someone else mentioned, but she is not in a situation where going to HR is likely to do much good.

        1. N.J.*

          I posted this before seeing Alison’s response…yes the gender discrimination would seem actionable.

    7. Sunshine Brite*

      Are you in organizing or social justice? I’m a social worker and know some are quite open about their views and it’s disconcerting in a professional context. It’s not ok to play favorites and take away the project

    8. Not So NewReader*

      You didn’t know it was mandatory to go, as in your ability to be effective at work depended on it. Seems to me those who did go should be paid for their time since it seems mandatory. That would be an interesting turnaround, but I know you can’t use it.

      Honestly, I don’t understand these bosses that target their employee in this manner and basically make them ineffective. Eventually that will reflect on her department if everyone is not working up to par.

      Maybe you can give her a cooling off period and then say, “I understand you are disappointed in my choice not to participate in the march. I still support and respect you as my boss, that has not changed. I am hoping that we can find a common ground in focusing on doing a good job and getting the work done well. It’s to both our advantages if I am doing my full share of the work here and helping you make this department look good to the higher ups.”

    9. Freya UK*

      Wow… I’m sorry you have an SJW for a manager :(

      “I would appreciate hearing how you handled a hostile boss or colleagues while you were looking for something else.”

      Stay in your peace bubble. Keep your own council as much as possible, and remember that other people’s bad vibes are their problem, not yours, no matter how much they want to make it your problem. You have full control over how you feel.

      If she keeps taking work off you you’re still getting paid, right? If she wants to pay you to do nothing then let her!

    10. Fortitude Jones*

      What the hell?!

      That’s all I got. Your manager is an idiot. Hopefully, you’ll get out of there soon.

  40. Kit*

    A week back one of my staff drunk texted my boss an incoherent rant. In there is “kit thinks she’s an control if. nonsense. But its going be a bomb. Of stupidity.”

    Where does one even start? I didn’t know we had issues. Or that I was a stupidity bomb! I’ve been waiting until I felt less cranky about it to talk to him, and he’s been sort of conciliatory in the mean time, but only briefly apologized to my boss. I used to get drunk rant texts from him on occasion when we were peers, so it seems to be an issue he has. He’s also twelve years older than me and should really know better.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      This needs to be documented with HR. There is a history of him doing this. Someone who did something like that in my workplace would be terminated.

    2. Lily in NYC*

      Whoa! This is over the line. Your boss didn’t rip him a new one? I think you should make the texter feel as uncomfortable as possible – don’t make it easy for him. And I’m annoyed that you boss doesn’t seem to have done anything about it. Maybe we work in very different industries, but this would be a big deal at my job.

  41. Lillian Styx*

    Today is my 7th work anniversary! I’m happy and proud. In these times where many need to move on to move up I feel extremely lucky that the first job I found has been so fulfilling and challenging and rewarding.

    Sending some good vibes to any of y’all out there struggling.

  42. Tuckerman*

    Planning my response (hopefully having fun in the process) to an obnoxious colleague who will likely have an obnoxious response when I cut my hair in the next couple weeks. When I had short hair, he would tell me I should grow it out (women should have long hair). He’s got a history of obnoxious comments. Asking when you’ll have a baby. Saying he likes women under 100lbs. Not enough to really get in trouble, but enough that it affects his reputation. He leans on the excuse that American culture is different than the culture in his home country, but he’s lived and worked here for 15 years.
    OK! So, since it’s unlikely my response will lead to a Come to Jesus moment, and considering I have a good reputation, how should I respond when he (inevitably) says something obnoxious about the haircut? My reputation is good enough that I can say something snarky, mildly inappropriate, but not outright hostile.

    1. Lillian Styx*

      I’d go with a stone cold “do not comment on my appearance ever again” with some intense eye contact and pointer-finger jab toward the face (just toward–no contact!)

    2. Lucky*

      How about something like “Great, thanks, I really appreciate your input. I’ll give my hairdresser your home number so he can consult with you before I make any more crucial hair decisions.”

    3. Jessie the First (or second)*

      Some ideas, as I brainstorm:
      – stare at him with dead eyes and no smile, don’t say anything. Look away after 30 seconds or so and talk to someone else/start working/whatever.
      – “I’ll note your preference and try to keep it in mind next time I go to the salon. Though since your feelings about my hairstyle don’t matter to me even a tiny bit, I have to warn you I’ll probably forget by the time I go next.”
      – “Good thing it doesn’t matter what you think about my hair, isn’t it?” (with a sticky sweet smile)
      – “Oh, are we critiquing each other’s bodies and personal styles now? That feels inappropriate, don’t you think?”

      These may all be crummy ideas. But I wanted to brainstorm something because I’m annoyed along with you by Jerky Coworker.

    5. CM*

      “Don’t worry, I saved it for you!” Hand him the hair in an envelope.
      (Not really… but he might think you’re a little insane and back off.)

    6. yarnowl*

      Oh I love this. I would go with something like, “Huh, well, it’s a good thing I don’t care what you think about how I look!” I have used this with gross dudes making comments about my appearance and their reaction is usually pretty funny to watch.

      1. Temperance*

        I always respond with a comment about their own appearance, because, in my experience, men who look like Zac Efron or Channing Tatum don’t say this to women.

    7. Spoonie*

      Women under 100 lbs? Really. I think I would have to be literally a skeleton for that to happen.

      “My appearance is for me, not you.” tends to be my go-to. Well, the nicer one. What people think they have a right to comment on is quite perplexing.

    8. Emilia Bedelia*

      I like the unenthusiastic nod and “Hm.” Then turn back to what you’re doing.
      Or, “Huh. I don’t know why you’d say that”

      Don’t look at this as a chance to use up your capital- look at it as a chance to build up your reputation. The worse he looks, the better you’ll look in comparison.

    9. Liz2*

      “What a strange thing to say. Have you considered cultural counseling? Comments like that really harm your reputation.”

      1. It’s true.
      2. It puts the onus back on him.
      3. It lets him know he’s hit a wall with you he will need to deal with if he does it again.

      3. tigerStripes*

        I like this too. I was trying to figure out a way to say something about his cultural expectations, but I couldn’t think of anything that didn’t sound mean. This is a great way to put it.

    10. Tahiti Dreaming*

      Some really great ideas here!

      I had a male coworker make a nasty comment on a haircut/style I got a few years ago. I asked him for his credit card and when he asked why I told him that if he wanted my hair a certain way he had to pay for it. He sputtered for a second and then I told him if he ever commented on my appearance again that I would report him to HR. He quit speaking to me. It was fabulous.

    11. Temperance*

      I’m not a nice person. I would have said something shocking, upsetting, and profanity-laced the first time he told me I was too fat to date him, or asked me if I was pregnant or whatever. He sounds like what I call “human garbage”.

    13. KellyK*

      If you can be a little snarky, I would say, “Dude, when I want your opinion on my hairstyle, believe me, I’ll ask for it.”

    16. Mirax*

      I respond to stuff like this by just saying, deadpan, “That’s nice, [Steve],” and turning back to whatever I was doing.

      [Steve] is my go-to but the point is that it’s a generic name which is obviously not the correct one. (If I know the rude person is named Steve, I call him Frank instead, frex.)

    17. NaoNao*

      Women under 100 lbs? That really stuck out to me! It’s certainly *possible* but if a full grown woman is less than 100 lbs and is not a professional ballet dancer, she is going to be very, very frail and thin (unless she’s like 5’0″). I will say, though, that many men, bless their hearts, have no friggin’ idea what weight actually looks like on a woman. I am 185 (I’m very tall) on a good day and once had a transit cop who was writing me a warning ticket estimate me at “130”. Hee.
      He sounds like an absolute jerk, however.
      And he’s totally wrong about American culture. It’s not considered cool or acceptable to mouth off about reproductive status, weight, or others’ hairdo’s. People do it, and the standards are “have a baby, have long hair, and be thin” for sure. But mentioning it is considered crass, weird, and out of touch.
      For me, I’d do what I always do when people say stuff about my [whatever] ” That’s funny because I LOVE it!” Big, sh*t eating grin, turn on heel, flounce off happily.

    18. Lily in NYC*

      This is the perfect opportunity for “The Hand”! Before he even opens his mouth, you just put up your hand in that “no” position and say “I don’t want to hear it” and then keep walking. That’s my M.O. with my brother-in-law, who thinks he’s a comedian.

    19. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      “Where’s your badge??” wait for the awkward huh or what…..then answer, “I thought the fashion police had to show a badge. So you don’t have one? Guess you shouldn’t comment then, you could be found guilty for impersonating a fashion officer.”

      …sorry…feeling a bit snarky today, it’s Friday after all! :-)

    20. Sas*

      Be thankful you aren’t his type. Don’t need to say anything. Studies show that short women are more attractive to men. Well, good thing I chose to be tall?? I’m being felicia-tious. I’m sure you also prefer smart, successful career, and stable family types. I meet none of those requirements either.

    23. Clever Name*

      My mom has said the following zinger to an obnoxious colleague:

      “I’m sorry, you must have mistaken me for someone who values your opinion.”

    24. Not So NewReader*

      “Lived here 15 years and still don’t get it, eh, Fergus?”

      “You have been scheduled for your first class in workplace etiquette next week.”

      “Keep trying, Fergus, maybe in 15 more years you will get start to know how to talk to female coworkers. Keep trying, bud.”

      “I can’t believe you have never seen anyone with a haircut before! I am stunned.”

      “Oh, women should have long hair? Well men should not make personal comments about coworkers. I guess neither one of us is happy today, eh?”

      “Fergus, you have seen me and others with haircuts before. This is not something new.”

    26. tigerStripes*

      I keep thinking “This is my hair, and I get to decide what to do with it.” Not sure if that would help.

      What about “I guess I missed the memo where you were put in charge of my hair?” with an icy tone.
      “What makes you think you’re in charge of the way I look?” “My short hair is perfectly acceptable in this culture.”

      1. Cryptic Critter*

        I have several go to’s for situations like this.
        For oblivious but not generally mean spirited male coworkers.
        OMG! Did we get married and I missed it???!!!
        Followed up quickly with a Hey! did I get a nice ring at least? Usually they are back peddling and blushing at warp speed. Sometimes I run with “Dinner and a Movie first buddy!! I have standards!!” Either way they know they crossed “that line” but no hard feelings. Actually I think it’s funny cause I work with some real dinosaurs with foot-in-mouth disease.

        For coworkers male or female.
        “I believe I can live with your disappointment”, followed by the hard no nonsense stare. I save this one for folks I don’t like or are continually intrusive.

  43. T3k*

    So just a simple question, and I’m getting mixed feedback from family/friends on this. I was using Indeed to find more jobs to apply to, saw one for a company I’ve applied in the past for but never heard from. I went to bookmark the page and noticed it said I had already bookmarked it. Apparently they changed the title from something like “designer” to “contract designer” and was wondering if I should reapply with the new title change or not?

    1. Collie*

      I wouldn’t, though if there’s contact information, I may consider calling in to confirm that it’s the same position.

    2. Jenbug*

      How long ago did you apply? If it was within the past six months, I’d say no. If it was longer ago, then sure, why not. They may have hired someone who didn’t work out and realize they need different skills or something.

  44. BigSigh*

    I need some perspective because I feel like I’m in the wrong.

    A coworker’s dad has a tumor in his spine. Horrible, right? He just found out maybe two weeks ago. Our small office has tried to be supportive. Heck, my mom has cervical cancer. It’s scary and devastating.

    But…I can’t stand how often he talks about it and most of my coworkers seem to feel the same, especially as it very personal and graphic. Cancer is a tough issue for many people. He talks about it at length every morning and any time he catches someone in the kitchen (which happens often because if he sees someone go in there, he’ll follow them in). He complains bitterly that his dad doesn’t want visitors and which days he’s planning on visits. But then he gets really detailed about chemo side affects like constipation, catheter insertion, and other procedures. I just…I just don’t want to hear it and it’s impossible not to when he talks about it constantly in our really small office! It makes me really uncomfortable, and I’ve heard some muttered comments from coworkers implying the same, but he’s hurting so is there really anything that can be said?

    Is there any way to get him to stop or is this just going to have to be a new office norm?

    1. yo yo yo*

      This type of stuff does weird things to people. He probably doesn’t even realize that he is doing it.

      I would just be honest and say “Hey Fergus, we feel really bad for you, but I don’t think you realize how much you are talking about this. It is really affecting the morale on the team.”

      Maybe refer him to your company’s EAP if one is available.

      1. TCO*

        I might not use “morale” as an excuse–Fergus might interpret that as being told that the workplace’s need to be “happy happy” comes before his personal crisis. I’d say something like, “Fergus, you know that we want to support you and your family, but the medical details make some of us uncomfortable. For me, work is a distraction from my mom’s illness and it’s just too hard for me to hear the details. Would you mind cutting down on the medical talk, and focus instead on letting us know when and how we can help support your work-life balance?”

    2. EddieSherbert*

      That’s really tough for everyone. I feel like he might just need to vent or worry or share, and doesn’t really realize why it’s not okay to share THAT much.

      Maybe try a: “Fergus, I’m so sorry to hear about your dad and am keeping him in my thoughts, but I’m uncomfortable with some of these details. Can we change the subject for now?”

      Or, if you are comfortable (and can say this and mean it!):
      “Can we keep the conversation more general? I do want to know if he’s having a bad day, but not the specific symptoms of how it’s bad.”

    3. Sunflower*

      Ugh sorry. I’m thinking if your office is small, you probably don’t have an EAP? If you do, I would definitely recommend he do that. If there is someone in the office especially close with him and you think it would be appropriate, it’s also in line to recommend he talk to someone about how to handle this stuff- maybe a social worker at the hospital?

      Also not a bad idea to have his boss remind him of FMLA available.

    4. BRR*

      I might first try “I know this is a a tough time. I think there are people outside the office who could offer more help to you.” or something like that. The point to get across is your’e trying to help him do what is in his best interest.

      If that doesn’t work after a couple times (sounds like you have no shortage of opportunities) I would go to “I’m sorry your dad (or you and your dad) are going through this. I feel very uncomfortable knowing these personal details. Can we stick to lighter conversation?”

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Can you recommend a support group or EAP?

      Since your mom has cancer,too, can you suggest that you use your job as a time out from that? Help him to think of it like a mini-break maybe he could find some rest during the day as this has to be exhausting him.
      I’m sorry about what your mom and in turn you, are going through.

  45. Anonymouse*

    This is a bit of a follow up to the “can HR have friends at work” question… I think I know the answer and I just need confirmation from the lovely AAM commentariat to confirm my suspicion.
    I work in an HR department for a large and well regarded company in my area, albeit in a pretty lowly position. I process paperwork and am not a part of any decision making conversations whatsoever. I do see a lot of confidential/personal information on employees and new hires. Recently, a friend of mine from high school announced that she had accepted an offer at my company – I had no idea she was even an applicant, and I immediately recused myself from processing her hire so I don’t know anything except what position and where she’s gonna sit (which I found just from seeing the welcome signs in my usual route around the office).
    My question is – what would be optics be of having an occasional lunch with her? I want to be sensitive to how things might look if people were to realize what department I am from and would hate for anyone to speculate that she got the job for knowing me, but also this is such a large company and our HR department is excellent (well known in the community for their policies and practices) so I wonder if people would even question it much.
    What do you guys think?

    1. CM*

      I think it’s fine, especially since it’s a large enough company that you don’t have to be directly responsible for issues with her. There’s a difference between an occasional lunch and BFFs. (But I’m not an HR person, so I might not fully understand the implications.)

    2. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      Not in HR either, but I also think this is fine. At previous jobs I’ve held, people from different departments (including HR) frequently sat together at lunch. It’s totally normal.

  46. Professor Marvel*

    I have a bonus experience question. I’m not looking for legal advice, but an understanding of how various companies have handled bonuses. I work for a non-profit. I was recently given a bonus. I understand that the IRS wants its cut and that taxes were to be taken out. This was done. The payroll office also deducted retirement. THE QUESTION: When you have received a bonus has retirement been deducted?

    The non-profit contracts with the local city to handle payroll. I think that one of the issues is that the payroll office listed my bonus as “retro pay”. From what I understand of IRS publication 15 this is incorrect. It’s supplemental wages not regular wages. In my previous experience retirement wasn’t deducted from bonuses. I know I may not get the money back and it’s not really lost. It’s part of a larger group of issues that we are having with the handling of payroll.

    1. yo yo yo*

      I believe my company usually takes out the same amount from the bonus as you requested for your regular paycheck. If you want or need the extra money, can you make a one time change to your next deduction so that it evens out?

      I can’t comment with any real knowledge on the “retro pay” piece of it, but on the surface it seems like they messed up.

      1. Professor Marvel*

        Thanks. Yeah, the “retro pay” brings in the implication that this isn’t a special payment.

    2. Wing Girl*

      I recently received a bonus where retirement was deducted. I was glad to have that done because the retirement amount was matched by the employer. I looked at is as getting additional money. And the retirement deduction and employer match will (theoretically) grow over time with the rest of my retirement savings/investments.

      1. Professor Marvel*

        Thanks. I understand that. But since the non-profit didn’t plan to pay the match that means they may have to cut hours from part-time employees to actually have the money.

    3. Judy*

      In my past experience, and this is only 401k (pension, what’s that?), one company took 401k contributions at the same rate as with salary, and the other had two spots to sign up for rates, one for salary & one for bonus.

    4. Jessie the First (or second)*

      Sometimes retirement is taken out and sometimes it isn’t – for me, it has varied by employer. And the reason it varies is because of complicated legal stuff: each employer’s retirement plan has a plan document (each employer has its own plan document for each of its own retirement plans), and that plan document defines compensation for the purposes of salary deferrals differently. Some count only base wages, some count overtime, some count bonuses. Some don’t. So it has varied for me, and it would vary for you too. So it could be a mistake because of how the bonus was coded, or it could be how your retirement plan document defines “wages.”

      1. Professor Marvel*

        Thanks. That makes sense. Knowing our retirement plan it wouldn’t surprise me that they want the money.

    5. Michele*

      They take our retirement out of our bonuses, just like a regular paycheck. The nice thing is that they match it just like a regular paycheck match.

    6. Hibiscus*

      I work for a non-profit hospital, and any penny you get from pay or bonus has retirement deducted. It’s set up in our payment rules.

    7. Construction Safety*

      Old Company: no retirement withheld
      New company: retirement withheld & company match provided.

    8. Someone*

      My bonuses are treated like regular paychecks (so retirement is taken out). They also tax us for that pay period as if we were making that much money all year, so I’ll be getting something back on taxes.

      1. Profess Marvel*

        Thank you. I was familiar with the 25%. My partner always just claimed bonuses on taxes and this is my first bonus.

    9. Amelia Parkerhouse*

      My company takes 401K out of every check regardless of whether it’s regular pay or bonus or whatever. Our plan is written so it’s taken out of all compensation. That’s how it’s spelled out in the 401K paperwork. And they also match it. So it’s cool.

    10. nonegiven*

      My husband’s company takes out the taxes on his bonus but they don’t take retirement out or pay their match on it.

      1. nonegiven*

        Come to think of it, they take (his hourly wage x 40 x 52)/12 x 401k% out every month. Even when his paycheck varies by $500 a month depending on # of working hours available that month. They never take it out of overtime, either.

        Their match, is figured on actual pay, not counting overtime x %match. They used to figure it the same way they did his part of the 401k but they just started this at the beginning of 2016

  47. Ms. Meow*

    My company is currently going through a huge effing merger. It has been dragging on for over 13 months already and it will probably be another 4-5 months until the merger is complete, then another year until things are settled. People are leaving, morale is in the toilet, and we only get vague answers from higher-ups whenever we ask any questions. I’m under contract until July (due to getting a starting bonus and moving expenses paid). Does anyone have any suggestions on how to keep my head up through these next few months? I’m having a tough time staying motivated…

    1. Michele*

      I don’t know, but if you figure it out tell me. I am going through something similar. Instead of a merger, it is layoffs for the first time in company history. Higher-ups are aren’t the same trust-worthy ones we used to have, and they won’t tell us anything, not that we would believe them anyway.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Start sprucing up that resume and getting your professional references in order, then in May, start applying for things.

      In the mean while, take extra good care of yourself by getting enough sleep and exercising regularly.

  48. AnonAnony925*

    I’m new to software development but I just joined a company as a business analyst and my mind is blown. I have 4 DAILY stand ups, 2 weekly stand ups, and one biweekly standup. This just seems absurd to me. Can y’all tell me if this is normal? The daily stand ups just go over what each person has done the day before and there’s a lot of overlap of participants so I’m hearing the same thing multiple times of day. I can’t find any value in these things. These 15 minute meetings just kind of ruin the flow of my day too because I can’t seem to just focus and work on one thing continuously without being interrupted or worrying about being late to the meeting.

    1. Mon Mon*

      Are they using an Agile project management methodology? Or trying to? That would explain the standups…sort of. My guess is they’re trying to put some agile activities into a non-agile environment. I could go on and on (used to be an Agile Transformation Coach), but I’d approach your manager and set expectations on priority for which of these you are required to attend (as an active participant, as a required listener, or as an optional listener). Good luck!

      2. Bonky*

        My first reaction too: this is Agile. Read about the methodology before you talk to your manager so you’re informed; it’s helpful.

        Some people and organisations can get a little cultish about Agile. (I’ve been to Agile conferences which feel quasi-religious, and it’s quite hard to have rational discussions about the methodology as a result.) Others use it very effectively. I find some of the activities in it very helpful indeed, but a 100% Agile environment can be tough in some cultures and on some people when it’s imposed without consideration.

    2. Annie Moose*

      That seems like a huge number to me! I’ve never heard of having more than one a day. Having one at the beginning or end of the day is a lot more common.

      1. Mon Mon*

        Agree. They may be Agile-ish…splitting resources among many different teams, resulting in multiple daily standups, which is kind of a no-no, if you’re doing “true” agile scrum. Resources should (in theory) be dedicated to one scrum team. Doesn’t always happen, but 4 stand-ups seems excessive to me as well!

    3. NoMoreMrFixit*

      That is insane. How does management expect anyone to accomplish anything with all those interruptions? Are these meetings covering mission critical info or are they of the type easily replaced with email or project blogs? Being new makes it hard to push back but at the same time being the new kid on the block does give you a legit reason to ask why this is going on.

    4. AnonAnony295*

      Thanks Annie Mouse and NoMoreMrFixit for confirming my suspicions.

      Only the weekly meetings cover the mission critical updates. They daily stand ups is just a recap of the person’s day. There’s no discussion, no questions are asked/answered. Once every has spoken, we end the call. What’s even more ridiculous is that at 2:00pm every day on Slack we receive prompts from GreekBot to specify what we accomplished the previous day, things we learned, etc so everything we say a the standup is also being posted on Slack.

    5. Someone*

      Oh, Agile. Replacing undercommunication with overcommunication. At one place, I felt they had made it so, instead of our boss micromanaging us, we had to micromanage ourselves. Agile is difficult to implement well, but it is still better than waterfall.

      It can work well for people who are on a single team, but for anyone who is on multiple teams, it can be a time sink. If people are really giving the same precis in different meetings, then there is a problem, because the meetings should be project-specific and they should only be talking about the status of that project. Maybe later you can make some suggestions around this, once you really know the company and people. For you as a newbie, however, it is a good opportunity to sort out who does what, to see who is responsive to questions from other people, and to just watch the process.

      1. Dee*

        I like your second sentence! I just joined a super Agile team (i guess my past teams weren’t as committed?) – those meetings from the OP are nothing. 2x daily standups (business + tech) retros/grooming/planning every other week…it’s too much! Just talking about what you’re GOING to do takes up 6-8 hours every other week.

    6. Camellia*

      Disclaimer: I am a certified scrum master.

      Here is my impression of a scrum master: Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? [repeat ad infinitum]

      1. Bonky*

        That is painfully, hilariously accurate of some of the people I know who are very, very serious about the methodology. Thank you – made me smile!

      2. Windchime*

        This is the best description of Agile that I’ve ever seen. I’m thinking it can probably work well in some situations, but at my last job I was one of 6 or 7 developers on an 11 person team. All developers were responsible for a crazy variety of tasks (Design a data warehouse! Do all the ETL! Be on call! Write reports!) and we still had to do the daily scrum/huddle/stand-ups. The only thing I got out of Agile is that it’s a way to cause intense anxiety because there is always someone cracking the whip and wanting more and more work and no time in which to do it.

  49. Tableau Wizard*

    Oh how I dream of casual Fridays. I enjoy wearing fancy clothes most days, but I seriously would love to just throw on jeans and a cute top once a week. Do you have casual friday and love it? hate it?
    I just don’t know if my dreams are actually reality for anyone.

    1. F.*

      Deep cleaning the office today and wearing yoga sweatpants and a t-shirt! However, our “casual Friday” means jeans and a sweater for me at the reception desk, but we are a very casual place to begin with. And I wear walking shoes every day due to foot problems.

      3. Bonky*

        Same here. It’s brilliant. It’s a policy I was very firm on instating when we were a startup: last week’s discussion about high heels brought back some very painful (literally) memories of jobs I’ve had in the past. If people are comfortable and feel they’re in their own skin, they usually do a much better job.

        1. tigerStripes*

          Yeah, people who feel comfortable do a better job. I’m not sure why so many companies insist on people dressing up. Where I work for, t-shirts and jeans are OK, and I love that.

    3. Red Reader*

      I’m fully remote, so my regular work attire is fresh PJs and a dog, but the on-site portions of my department do have casual Fridays where jeans are allowed for non-patient-facing staff, and it’s a pretty popular thing.

      1. Tableau Wizard*

        I’m in healthcare and NEVER patient facing, and I have to be business formal every day. *sobs into my suit jacket*

        1. Amethyst*

          I work in the admin office and never see customers but we are not allowed casual Friday. It sucks because one of our sister sites has casual Monday because they are closed to the public and another one has casual Friday.

        2. Red Reader*

          I was on site before they started doing casual Fridays — that’s only been a thing for about a year — and the nearest building that saw patients or even had our hospital’s logo on it was five miles away, and they were STILL super sticklers on the (8 page) dress code. :P It included “no visible tattoos”, and I have forearm tattoos and a habit of pushing my sleeves up to mid-forearm while I type without thinking about it, so the manager was pretty regularly clearing her throat at me. When I was interviewing for my first remote spot, she pulled me into her office and was like “I just wanted to let you know, I did have to tell [future manager] that you’re not always good at following the dress code.” I said, “Well, conveniently, with the XYZ team, I’ll be working from home, so I don’t think they’re too worried about it?” :P

    4. Murphy*

      We’re usually fairly business casual in general, but Fridays are jeans-a-palooza in my office, and it’s great.

    6. yarnowl*

      I loooove casual Friday. But, to be fair, although I work in a pretty conservative industry (a lot of the salespeople and support staff have to wear basically suits and ties), I work in the marketing department and have more leway with how I dress.

      I mostly like casual Friday because I ride the train, and most days I wear sneakers or snow boots to walk to the office, and then have to change out of them when I get here, but on casual Friday I can just wear my sneakers and not change! I love it.

    7. Lemon Zinger*

      We are required to be in business casual (leaning toward professional) every day. We have some polo shirts and management prefers that we only wear them on Fridays, as I’m doing today.

      There was a day near Christmas where we got permission to wear jeans, but I felt distinctly uncomfortable in jeans and was only taking a half-day anyway.

    8. Chalupa Batman*

      I came from a job where casual Friday and ONLY FRIDAY was strictly enforced. Now my boss doesn’t really care if I wear jeans on a Tuesday as long as I’m not doing an event or something, and I kinda miss it. Casual Friday used to mean hoodies and sneakers; now if I wear jeans feel like I have to either wear a dressier top or something with the company logo because it’s not *technically* a casual workplace. Maybe it’s just my weirdness, but casual Friday seems less…casual now.

      1. Michele*

        I understand that. We used to have a business casual dress code with jeans only on Fridays. Over the last few years, they have relaxed the dress code so much that even VPs wear jeans every day. I kind of miss dressing up, but I would look weird if I did, and now because I wear jeans to work everyday, I feel like my weekend clothes are no longer just for me.

    9. Tau*

      Yep, casual Fridays here (business casual the rest of the time). We can also leave early on Fridays if we’ve worked enough earlier in the week, and most of the higher-ups work from home so it’s just us peons in the office. Fridays are great :)

    10. Sunflower*

      We have ‘jeans days’ every few fridays but I wish we had them every Friday. Some of the smaller offices do but we are HQ. If it’s not a jeans Friday, I’ll usually wear leggings which are actually against the dress code but I make sure my butt is covered and I don’t look like I just rolled out of bed and no one says anything.

      My old company never had jeans days and I ended up wearing leggings multiple times a week lol

    12. Elizabeth West*

      One thing I will miss about Exjob was jeans and t-shirts–EVERY day. We did have to dress up if there were clients in the office, but after I’d been there a while, they relaxed it to only dress up if you’re going to be in meetings with them. Most people worked from home on dress-up days, haha.

      And we did have coworkers who wore nicer clothes every day (dresses, trousers, etc.), but that was just their style, or they were managers. The bigwigs were mostly men and they wore suits. We had a rule where you couldn’t wear graphic tees; it had to be company tees only, but plenty of people wore nerd shirts to work, including me.

      I’m scrambling now to find business casual clothing that fits me because most of that wardrobe wore out and wasn’t replaced after I started working there. Ugh, work clothes. :P

    13. MWKate*

      Apparently we used to have jean days a long time ago, however one person abused it by wearing jeans that didn’t meet the dress code (very ripped, etc) and instead of addressing it with that person – they simply banned jeans forever for everyone.

      Which is kind of how this place works.

    14. hermit crab*

      We are technically business casual (though the company defines business casual as basically “just use your best judgement and don’t embarrass us in front of clients”) with a tacit understanding of jeans-on-Fridays. You’d have to pay me a LOT of money to get me to go someplace more formal; this has ruined me.

      Meanwhile, I am on a one-woman mission to un-Friday-ify what I think of as the Ellen dress code: blazer, solid t-shirt, nice dark jeans, Chucks. Whenever I do this, all I get are compliments on my fun blazers, so I think I am doing OK so far.

    15. Chaordic One*

      I like Casual Friday, but I still dress well. In winter and fall I usually wear nice newish jeans (ironed) and boots. Often I’ll wear a suede or corduroy blazer because they sort of “class up” the jeans. I also wear more kind of crafty jewelry on casual Friday.

      In the summer I don’t bother with jackets and am more inclined to wear open-toed sandals and sleeveless dresses and blouses.

    16. Freya UK*

      It’s actually going to be one of my questions regarding the work culture next time I interview – if it’s a fairly corporate place and they say they don’t do dress-down Fridays I’ll see it as a red flag tbh. My new/current place doesn’t and it just seems to be part of this very corporate culture that doesn’t suit me (hah) AT ALL.

    17. Fortitude Jones*

      My company FINALLY gave us casual Fridays (in lieu of better health insurance, ugh). We love it. I too love dressing up during the week, but having one day where I can just throw on some jeans and my Chucks without a care in the world is nice.

    18. Anonyby*

      The office that I’m at on weekends (and used to be my main office) is fine with jeans on Fridays. Heck, we could get away with wearing them occassionally during the week as long as they were nice (I would stick to dark, trouser-cut ones if I wore it during the week). I treat weekends the same as Fridays while I’m here.

      However, my new main office doesn’t do casual Fridays. Oh well. At least Friday is my day off so it doesn’t matter as much!

    19. Not A Morning Person*

      In a previous job where we had casual and jeans-ok on Fridays, I could never remember it. The rest of the week was seriously business wear. Think real business suits, (not an un-matched pair of slacks or a skirt with a coordinating jacket or blazer…matched only!) And it was too hard to think of something different to wear on Friday. I got teased (good-natured teasing) for not wearing jeans and I didn’t really care. It was easier not to have to think about it.
      Now I’m in an office where the regular dress code is business casual, but no jeans….and most people dress very casual and don’t know what business casual is. I no longer own any suits.

  50. Maternity question*

    Question on maternity leave. I just learned my company doesn’t provide any paid leave. Just unpaid 12 weeks (adhering to FMLA even though we only have about 15 employees). I wanted to ask the commenters what they did in this situation? All of my friends got paid leave so I have no one to ask.
    How did you make it through without pay? I just signed up for short term disability that kicks in after 10 months, 60% of my pay for 6 weeks. I will have to go back to work after 6 weeks – I am the breadwinner and we cannot live on my husbands salary alone. I’m pretty sure I’m not pregnant now, but I am worrying that I somehow will be and give birth before 10 months so I won’t even get disability. I am feeling discouraged bc when I was hired everyone stressed how it was “family friendly” and unpaid leave doesn’t seem very friendly to me. What has been your experience?
    (I also live in the US in a state that provides no benefits; don’t get me started on the US’s horrible maternity care.)

    1. orchidsandtea*

      Honestly, we moved in with friends to save money. We cut back on eating out. We’re pinching pennies everywhere–lowered the cell phone bill, switched gyms, etc.

      1. anonforthis*

        And even with all of that, the only way to make this work is for my husband to work an extra 12 hour shift a month.

    2. Tableau Wizard*

      Ugh, I feel your pain. The “paid leave” offered by my company was the short term disability. It covered 60% of my salary for 5 of my 6 weeks of leave – there’s a 7 day unpaid waiting period before STD kicks in. I’m able to take up to 18 unpaid per local law, but who can afford that.
      I saved up PTO and used some of that, but I still ended up taking 3 weeks unpaid to make it to 10 weeks (plan was 8, but baby came early and I stayed out through a holiday).

      I will say that if you can stretch it to 8 instead of 6, I’d try to do that. At 6 weeks, I was still struggling to figure out which way was up, but at 8 weeks, I felt on top of it all enough that I could’ve gone back. By 10, I was very ready.

    3. TMA*

      This is basically the set-up at my company too. Do you have any paid-time-off that you can save up and use? That’s what I ended up doing in addition to using the short-term disability. I was able to scrounge together about 8 weeks of paid leave for my second child.

      It’s hard going back at six weeks (I went back at six weeks with my first child), but you have to do what makes sense for your family.

    4. Tuckerman*

      I think, unfortunately, the best you can do is to factor lack of benefits into planning. How much money will you need to save to get through that unpaid 6 weeks? The good news is you have time to save. If your company has an EAP, you might be able to set up a meeting with a financial planner for free. It could be helpful to look at how you’re currently budgeting and see if there are any tweaks that could help you save more over the next few months (For example, if you have student loans, could you request a lower payment for the next 6 months so you can save more?) Good luck!

    5. Helena*

      I feel your pain. My company did not offer anything and I didn’t qualify for FMLA time. I used all my PTO before and during my pregnancy so all my maternity leave was unpaid. My husband and I could only afford for me to take 6 weeks. I’m pregnant again and it will be the same as last time. I really wish I could have more time off or paid time but it’s just not an option.

      (To add insult to injury, my husband has a family member in Canada who was eligible for over a year of maternity leave that wasn’t unpaid…18 months I think…she returned to work after 2 months because she was “bored” at home and missed being an “adult”. Meanwhile I would have cut off arm to have any paid time at all)

    6. Moira*

      My job allowed you to use accrued sick and vacation days to get “paid” during my mat. leave. Is that an option? And I got short term disability for the first 6 weeks. But yes, mat. leave in this country is ridiculous.

    7. J*

      Wait… how does short-term disability kick in after 10 months? Does coverage not begin until you’re employed 10 months? Surely they aren’t saying that an injury that goes on beyond 10 months is “short-term”.

      1. Maternity question*

        No, for pregnancy I believe you have to enroll before the pregnancy. The policy need to be in place for that long before you can use it. Then it’s good for 6 weeks, or 8 weeks for C-Section. Then that’s it.

      2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        When you purchase individual STD insurance there is a long waiting period before it kicks in, for exactly this reason. Otherwise, we’d all go out and buy STD insurance a week before we gave birth/had a pre-planned surgery/etc., collect the benefits, and cancel the policy immediately after.

    8. Bachitecture*

      Some warnings about Short Term Disability (ST Dis) and pregnancies — My understanding from my past maternity leaves was that ST Dis only was accessible for the first 6 to 8-weeks following birth (depends on your specific plan, the type of birth, and whether you had complications). And most ST Dis policies have a 1-2 week waiting period before any benefits kick-in. So this means that you really would only get paid for about 4 weeks max (and then that’s only at the 60% or so rate). I recommend using the lowest number for your calculations for planning whether you can stay home – that will help you determine what is best for you (as any extra would then be a bonus).

      Work-related tips: Try to save as much vacation/sick time as possible. If you can roll over time from year-to-year, do that. Most employers will let you use any banked time to cover the ST Dis waiting period and/or balance out the difference between ST Dis pay and your full check and/or extend your paid leave after ST Dis. If your employer has a “donation bank” or anything like that where they let employees turn in their excess PTO, see if they would be willing to use that bank to cover the ST Dis waiting period. They often won’t cover the whole leave period, but will sometimes let you cover the ST Dis waiting period (as it’s shorter). See if your employer will be willing to cover your insurance deductibles while you’re out as opposed to billing you for them. If you aren’t planning on being pregnant for a 1-2 years, see about switching to an HSA-medical plan and contributing as much as possible to that account pre-tax. You could then potentially switch back to a lower deductible plan pre-pregnancy/birth and have saved pre-tax money to cover all of your medical deductible expenses (depending on when your open enrollment period hits vs. your pregnancy).

      Personal Tips: Aim to make your prenatal appoints as early or late in the day as possible. Most women tend to only schedule their next appointment or so out each time; I would recommend trying to schedule basically 2 months worth of appts up-front/in advance if you can. This allowed me to get 7am appts so that I could be in-and-out of the DR without really needing to take anytime off of work. This is important especially once you start having to go in every week. Basically save as much money as possible as you’ll use it all between hitting your health insurance deductible with the birth and then making up for the lack of income. If you can figure out roughly what daycare will cost you, setting that aside each week would be great. It would give you a cushion for covering any unpaid periods and help you adjust to what it will be like to live with that added expense post-baby. Make sure to factor in the cost of daycare in whether you go back to work at 6 weeks vs if you can wait until 8-12 weeks. Daycare for kids under 16 months is extremely expensive, so any ability to minimize that time is helpful.

      US Maternity Leave sucks. :( :( :(

    9. mrs__peel*

      Unfortunately, that’s been in the norm at literally every place I’ve ever worked in the US. I’ve never had one employer (out of a dozen or so) that offered paid parental leave.

      I don’t have kids myself, but my co-workers with kids have mostly relied on short-term disability and just saving as much in advance as they could. I agree that it sucks.

    10. Rebecca*

      At the last company I worked for, short term disability leave is $200 per week, before insurance if you carry the insurance for you, you and spouse, or you and family. So…you might get between $60/$90 per week if you’re lucky. And, the company made you pay for it. You had to purchase a separate private plan if you wanted more money, like “the duck” commercial.

  51. F.*

    In the continuing saga of the filthy office…we are to have VIPs in on Monday, so an all-hands-on-deck cleaning session is being held today. The inspectors have been cleaning our lab all week, and we managers are responsible for the offices, upstairs restrooms & kitchen, lobby, conference room, etc. I had already cleaned the ladies’ room after the incident of a man using it and “spraying” the floor last week, so I am also doing the lobby (which is where I sit anyway). We had another ladies’ room incident this week with a mystery, brown substance appearing on the wall near the sink. No, not what you might think, but probably chewing tobacco. I cleaned that up, too, after reporting it to my boss and HR (for what it’s worth). Someone was also turning off the wall heater in the lobby overnight, leaving the room temperature in the 50s in the morning, so I have had to hide the remote control. The CEO won’t allow anyone to be disciplined for these acts without proof, but we are about 98% certain who is doing this, though have no way to prove it. Interestingly enough, this person got the kitchen to clean by default (didn’t respond to the email asking for people to claim an area), and it is filthy. I would be willing to bet good money that it doesn’t get cleaned, either.

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      WOW this sucks- I’m so sorry! Good luck with your clean- fingers crossed you eventually get the proof you need to do something.

    2. Michele*

      I am not sure who your inspectors are, but you can get in big trouble by agencies like the FDA if your facilities are not kept clean. It might help to point out to your boss that if you get a surprise inspection, you will get in big trouble for having dirty bathrooms and that you need to have a cleaning service come in at night.

      1. F.*

        Construction materials inspection. Crushing concrete cylinders, pounding dirt and rocks. It makes it very dusty and dirty, especially in the lab and the lobby. CEO won’t pay for a cleaning service at all, so the offices and upstairs have not been cleaned since I did it five months ago and swore I would never do the entire job again.

  52. Smiling*

    Just venting. It feels like the company institutes policies or rules that are often never followed. Often a big deal is made over something and the tops brass says “because of this behaviour, we are instituting this new policy as of now”.

    In my position, I’m the one who is supposed to make sure some of these rules are followed. However, when it’s not getting done, I have to report back to the brass that people are pushing back or just totally ignoring the rules. From there, there is almost never any repercussions for ignoring company policy.

    Then I feel silly about trying to enforce something that was a big deal yesterday (or last week, or last month), but no one else wants to deal with it today or excuses are made and the issue is just glossed over.

    1. Tahiti Dreaming*

      I feel you. We have so many policies, procedures & rules that are not followed until something happens and then that person feigns ignorance. When I tell them it’s in the employee handbook that we went over and they signed, stating they understood, they claim they don’t remember that section. When you inform the managers and NOTHING is done, it soooo frustrating. I asked the highest-level boss once why we made rules if no one had to follow them. He just gave me a blank stare. I eventually walked away.

  53. SaraV*

    Eeerrrrggggghhh.

    I follow someone on Twitter who’s giving out terrible job seeking advice.

    A)Work for free*
    B)Put all the materials the company asks for in a box. No one can resist not opening a box.

    Now, he’s a journalist, and a sports journalist at that. I believe journalism/electronic media jobs are quite different environments than other white-collar office jobs. Throw sports coverage into it, and it gets weirder. But this type of advice is setting my teeth on edge. I’ve tweeted him the link before of Alison’s post about “No gimmick resumes” several months ago, but he just shrugged it off.

    *This was all perpetuated by the Chicago Sun-Times not sending a reporter to the Northwestern basketball game in the suburbs while Northwestern is doing very well, and just using what’s called a wire report. He suggested a student should go to the paper and offer to do it for free. (I wouldn’t have a problem with this IF the paper contacted the journalism department and asked if they had a student that would be good enough and willing to do this, and have the student’s name listed on the byline)

    1. ThatGirl*

      Journalists shouldn’t be working for free either! If they want to use a student freelancer, he should get paid! Dear God!

      (That said, if the S-T wants to use a wire report … I’m not sure I see the problem. They’ve cut their staff dramatically recently, but they’ve always kinda sucked.)

    2. H.C.*

      As a ex-journo who knows how tough the business is nowadays, no no no no no no. Almost all editors would not care for the “stuff in a box” gimmickery – and working for free basically says even you don’t think your work is valuable enough to ask for payment.

      The only semi-sane reason I see your twitter friend giving out such awful advice is if he’s starting up a ‘zine / blog /site and looking to get content & swag for free.

    3. Joseph*

      Yeah, I just saw that too. I’m 100% certain he’s never hired someone in his life. This is the kind of advice that sounds fine on the surface (you can stand out from the crowd!) but is laughable for anybody who’s ever actually been on the other side of the desk.

    4. DEJ*

      I saw this this morning too – I work on the other side in athletic media relations at a major DI university. Unfortunately the thing about sports is that so many people are willing to do whatever they have to in order to break in, including writing for free. We all know it’s notoriously one of the most difficult industries to break into. And you have to have clips for your portfolio in order to get anywhere in sports reporting.

      If you read through his twitter, the CEO of the Oakland Raiders commented how she broke in with an unpaid internship. And there are plenty of other responses from respected reporters who note that doing some writing for free (which even Allison has pointed out can be beneficial in certain circumstances – https://www.askamanager.org/2012/09/should-i-do-free-work-for-the-exposure.html) helped get them to where they are now. There are a lot of very low-paid internships in my field that someone will always work because you need experience to get to the paying stuff and for some people that’s the only way to get that experience.

      Although yeah, I completely disagree with the ‘send your resume in a box’ comment.

    5. drago cucina*

      As long as I’ve worked if we get an unexpected box it makes us antsy. Too people that want to cause trouble. Ha, ha, ha. That white powder isn’t anthrax. We received a glitter bomb once that wasn’t fun to clean up.

    6. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      I saw that too. The “send a box because people always open boxes” is exceptionally bad advice. I have a feeling that someone at a newspaper, especially in a major city, would be suspicious and call in the bomb squad if they got a large random unexpected box.

  54. Lady Blerd*

    Don’t you love it when you are actually looking forward to a presentation because you think you’re going to get training for a new online tool that was rolled out without any training, then you sit through the morning-long presentation that is full of useful information you’ll be happy to share with colleagues and as time goes by, you slowly realize that you won’t get what you really came for ie training on the new system?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      It’s like the bait-n-switch webinars. I think I am going to learn some cool skills/techniques, but instead it’s a sales pitch for a 3rd party application.

    2. Michele*

      They recently switched our online training system at work. The new one has a weird login that isn’t like everything else we use. So they had us learn how to use it by reading something in the new system. Except that no one could figure out how because no one realized that they needed to modify their existing username in order to open the training document to tell us to modify our usernames.

    3. Sunflower*

      We had a training on working remotely and it was basically an hour long dragged out process of how to sign onto VPN. I was not happy.

  55. Amber Rose*

    I now present a conversation which, in it’s whole, describes exactly what it’s like to work with the most annoying coworker.

    SCENE

    [Phone rings. AMBER ROSE answers it.]
    AMBER ROSE: *is discussing an order with a customer*
    COWORKER: Hey, Amber.
    AMBER ROSE: *still discussing the order with the customer.*
    COWORKER: Amber!
    AMBER ROSE: *raises her voice just enough that it should be obvious she’s on the phone without yelling at the customer, who’s order she is still discussing.*
    COWORKER: *very loudly shouting* Amber!!!
    AMBER ROSE: *loses temper, covers phone mouthpiece* I’m on the phone!
    COWORKER: Oh, I thought so.

    END SCENE

      1. SaraV*

        I’m quietly laughing to the point of almost snorting as I hear the word “Dumbass!” sung in 8-part harmony.

        1. Amber Rose*

          Oh, I would never say that but I was sure thinking it.

          Any fans of the show Family Guy? There’s a scene where Stewie sits on the stairs and says “mom. mom. mom.” for like ten minutes. That’s what was coming to mind.

      3. Ally A*

        Right? That sounds like what little kids do with their parents when they’re on the phone. Mom! Mom! Mooooooom! Pay attention to meeee!

      2. Lemon Zinger*

        I would have had a strongly-worded conversation with the offender. No way would I let that slide.

    4. LCL*

      Oh, you work with my partner? Genius engineer will ask me as I’m listening to voicemail with the phone to my ear ‘Did anybody call? Who was it? When did they call?’ It’s actually a control thing they learned from family, IME.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Hmm. That is pretty basic to working anywhere.
      I hope you are telling her things as you go along and not letting this go by you.

  56. Working the Trenches*

    Recently, I’ve sent a few cover letters to managers and owners of companies in my industry who are “looking for someone”, according to mutual business acquaintances. These acquaintances know and allow me to name drop them in my cover letters. Sometimes I’ve met the managers before, and even collaborated with them. Often we’ve exchanged business cards as well, so it’s not always a pure cold call. We might be connected on LinkedIn.

    But it seems like no one will phone or email back, not even to let me know if I’m not qualified. Is it me? Should I accept this as I am not a desirable candidate? Or am I missing something or doing something wrong? I keep my letters short and polite. I thought finding a better job is through word of mouth. Am I missing something?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If they’re just “looking for someone” and not actually posting a job description and ads, they’re informal enough (possibly amateur enough) that it’s unsurprising that they’re not organized enough to respond to a job candidate. I’d write it off to that and focus on applying to jobs that are actually posted.

  57. Tableau Wizard*

    I need working mom role models. How in the world do you keep it all together? I’ve been back to work for two months and I’ve already learned a TON about myself, but I would love to hear how you make it all work?
    (Also, will my house ever be clean again, ever?)

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Working dad with a working wife here. Honestly, the thing that’s done wonders for us is hiring a cleaner to come and do the main level dusting and vacuuming, the toilets, and the master shower twice a month. It’s $150 a month and worth every blessed penny.

      1. Artemesia*

        Double this. You want to spend weekends with your family not doing basic cleaning. We also made cooking a family time e.g. whoever was cooking that night would cook with one of the kids when they got to be about 3 or older. In the beginning of course it was make work and more trouble than it was worth, but by the time they were ten they could cook a meal (yeah, tacos, but still a meal) and by 14, they could do a bang up job putting on a meal.

        Even as adults my kids love cooking when we get together and when we all lived in different cities when we did get together we would pair up to do meals — so people who didn’t see each other often had some quality time together while they put on dinner.

        With household chores, kids cooperate more if there is a dedicated chore time where everyone is up and getting it done.

        But household cleaning every couple of weeks? Really frees you up for a little me time and better family time.

    2. CM*

      Agree with hiring a cleaner if you can afford it.

      It’s only been two months. You will get into a routine and then things will feel easier. Lower your standards wherever you can, whether it’s pasta and carrot sticks every night, cutting your hair short, or letting laundry go for a little longer. If you have a baby, know that it will get easier as the baby gets older and needs less of your active attention and is hopefully healthier. It often feels impossible at first, but you will get through it and be able to breathe again in time.

      1. Future Analyst*

        Totally agreed: having a baby is hard, whether you’re working outside the home or not. They just need so much, but before you know it, they’re putting on their own shoes and reading their own books. I know everyone says it, but it goes fast!

    3. kbeers0su*

      Lower your standards. I’m a recovering perfectionist. It’s helped save my sanity. And probably my marriage :)

      1. Future Analyst*

        +1. I have two things that I care about now: clean bathrooms and clean (not perfectly folded) laundry. I don’t have capacity to care about more than that during any given week.

    4. Future Analyst*

      Short answer to the last Q: no. Sorry :(

      Long answer: we don’t keep it together. Our floors are filthy most of the time, I do 213765532688432 loads of laundry over the weekends, and my kids generally eat the same things each week, b/c I’m not spending any brain power on planning meals/cooking things that can’t be roasted.

      BUT: we do have a nanny who does the bulk of our dishes (otherwise those would also never be clean), and we both come home for lunch so we can see the kids/through an extra load of laundry in (I’m newly working from home, so if I have 5-7 mins to spare, I start another load). We also do one big grocery run over the weekend (bc there’s no time during the week), and we buy things in bulk from Costco (TP, paper towel, laundry detergent, etc.) so that we don’t have to run out for those items in the middle of the week. I also have all diapers, wipes, and assorted other care items on subscription from Amazon, so they’re delivered monthly (or bi-monthly) and I don’t have to schlep to Target for anything during the week.

      TL/DR: don’t go to stores during the week, it saves a lot of time. And get used to a general level of chaos. :) Hope that helps!

    5. Moira*

      It will get better — it takes time to work out a routine. I will say that we started getting groceries delivered, and it’s been great to have one less chore to do on the weekend. Early on we had a weekly meal plan (e.g. Taco Mondays, Stir Fry Tuesdays, Pasta Wednesdays) which was helpful as well.

    6. Accounting Associate*

      the house is never going to be the level of clean you want it to be. But it does get easier as the kids get older. They get more independent and then helpful. I would love to hire a cleaner but can’t afford to. Use the kids! When mine were about 3 and 5 they would help me put away laundry – I would fold and stack it and they would run it to the correct drawer. Then they started helping me fold. One day I was folding with them and looked at these two kids who were perfectly able to take on this task (not as neatly as I could, but they get the job done) and thought, why am I even doing this? So I told them you guys finish up, I’m going to shower. Now they fold their own laundry (they are 5 and 8) – the novelty has worn off and it takes them two hours some days because distractions, but I am not doing it and they aren’t sitting in front of the tv. To sum up – try to lower your standards and accept whatever help you can get in whatever form it comes in!

      1. JustaTech*

        Best trick to folding laundry I ever learned I learned from my dad (who almost never did laundry): do it in front of the TV. Then you get to treat yourself to your choice of TV and you’ll finish it because who wants underpants (even clean) in the living room? I do it this way even though it means I lug the laundry down and up an extra flight of stairs.

        1. Lady Bug*

          Yes. I get more ironing done during football season than any other time of year. Bonus, I throw fewer things at the TV because I know throwing a hot iron would end badly.

  58. Joseph*

    I just saw this great (hilariously stupid) piece of advice on Twitter and thought it was worth passing along for others’ enjoyment: Send everything you want a potential employer to see in a box. No one throws away a box without opening it.
    This seems like a fantastic way to get the hiring manager to remember you…in the “too dumb to follow directions” sense.

    1. F.*

      Gee, I’m surprised they didn’t suggest including a white powder to make you even more memorable! (sarcasm)

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      If I got a box of application materials, I’d dump it and use it to return something to Amazon. Or RTS.

    3. Pineapple Incident*

      Holy crap that’s so horrible to suggest to a job searcher. Desperate people who want jobs are in the position of evaluating this kind of trash advice, which might sound like a half-decent idea at the time. Not fair

      1. Kelly L.*

        Not to mention the more expensive postage, to be purchased by someone who’s probably running low on funds.

    4. SaraV*

      This is what I mentioned earlier…

      Now, I THINK he might be speaking to only broadcast journalism when it comes to a box. Employers want/need an audio or video sample, and not just a resume and cover letter. Problem is that nowadays, you’re usually emailing your material, and you attach an MP3 or a video file…not sending a physical tape or CD.

  59. hmmmm*

    Just ran into an example of real customer sleaze this morning. A customer contacted one of our suppliers about ordering a particular extra product we sell along with our teapots, trying to get it straight from the supplier rather than through us. Luckily the supplier emailed us the lead, not being in the practice of undercutting their dealers, and I worked on trying to figure out which customer of ours it was. Turns out he is the same customer who asked insanely detailed questions (questions which raveled he was actually clueless about teapots) of our brand new sales guy and condescendingly berated him when he could not answer in immense detail immediately, and I remember thinking then, “Wow this guys’ a jerk.” Turns out he did place a deposit with us, and thus got transferred from that poor sales guy to one of our seasoned (and female) project mangers. Who told me he talks to his wife like she’s an idiot in front of everyone, and made a snide comment to one of our male techs, in front of that female project manager, that “wow, she actually seems to know what she’s talking about” when she was doing her job and telling him stuff about our teapots. He swears he knows better than everyone here how to build teapots while making it clear with some of his “questions” (demands) that he really…don’t have a clue… and furthermore insists that paying what in really costs to build a teapot is ridiculous and he won’t do it. I just stumbled upon his website and it’s a weird consulting business where he offers to help other people do home installations of one of the teapot-augmenting products we sell along with our teapots, because “regular companies are trying to rip you off by making you pay for their employee labor, overhead and insurance” and you can just pay him a small consulting fee instead and he’ll tell you how to do it yourself on the cheap!

    Just…ewwwww. It amazes me that some people go through life being so shady and condescending to everyone and still honestly believe that behavior GETS them somewhere.

  60. SNS*

    I had my one year review this week and got the raise I was hoping for! The conversation wasn’t quite how I’d have liked it to go, but it had a good ending haha

    1. yarnowl*

      That is awesome, congratulations! I have my one-year review coming up in March and I’m so nervous. This is the first place I’ve worked that does yearly reviews and usually raises.

  61. FN2187*

    Short version: I work in a front office/public area of my organization and my coworkers keep stopping by my desk to specifically talk politics. It’s exhausting, and I cannot just leave my desk when they come by.

    Long version: I work in an industry that is going to be severely impacted by this new presidential administration, though my specific organizaiton People here feel very strong things about it, and they feel the need to tell me about it all the time. I do agree with them, but that’s beside the point. It’s uncomfortable. I am currently living with family who have opposing political opinions, and things there have been…tense. I absolutely do not need to deal with this at work, as well. How do I shut this down? I have been labeled as scary and intimidating, so I’m pretty soft spoken and reserved at this job — maybe I went to far in the other direction.

    My apologies if this has been covered in an open thread or another post.

    1. FN2187*

      Ugh, I didn’t finish my thought in the second paragraph. The overall industry will be impacted, but my organization will be safe — it’s completely privately funded.

    2. CM*

      I think you need to keep repeating some variation of, “Sorry, I’m really burnt out by all the talk about politics, and can’t talk about this at work.” People will get that.

      1. yarnowl*

        I totally agree. It’s not rude, and if you’re otherwise nice to everyone they will get it.

        I totally feel you on this. I’m also in an industry that’s already being pretty severely impacted and it’s a constant topic of conversation. I usually use some variation of, “Ugh, I can’t talk about this right now. Hey, didn’t you go to that new seafood place downtown? How was it?”

      2. FN2187*

        Thanks. I guess I needed reassurance that this was an OK thing to say to people. They can be touchy and I hate drama.

        1. KellyK*

          Anyone who can’t accept that you’re too burnt out to talk politics is probably self-absorbed enough that they’ll create some form of drama no matter what you do. It’s a totally okay thing to say to people.

  62. Katie ElderBerry*

    How do you handle attendance issues for employees with serious personal problems preventing regular attendance?
    I have a new employee who’s only worked 2 full weeks out the the 8 she’s been employed with us.

    1. ArtK*

      I would start by presenting it as what hasn’t gotten done, rather than simply attendance. Then ask the employee to provide some solutions. Certainly acknowledge that there are life issues causing conflicts but emphasize that the work needs to be done somehow.

      1. Michele*

        That is what we did with a similar employee. She had chronic health problems. Although no one blamed her for her health, she was impossible to count on, missed deadlines, and got upset when people took over her projects. She was given a lot of chances (far more than if she hadn’t been ill), but missed more than half of the work days in her last year before being let go.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      What kind of personal issues are they? Is it, say, caring for a sick kid, or is it more personal drama and feels?

        1. Temperance*

          It sounds like she has a chaotic personal life. I think it would be a huge kindness to discuss your expectations that she be at work every day if you aren’t comfortable firing her outright. The cynic in me is assuming that she’s done something similar in the past or has a history of this stuff.

        2. Katie the Fed*

          If she was SUPER apologetic and explained that these were one-off things, I might be willing to give her a second chance after saying “we need you to be here reliably. If you can’t commit to that, we’ll have to let you go.”

          However, if there was so much of a whiff of entitlement or not realizing what a huge deal this is, I’d cut her loose immediately.

        3. TheLazyB*

          It’s also relevant how bothered/embarrassed she seems about it. If lots, maybe ok. If she doesn’t seem particularly apologetic… well.

    3. Temperance*

      I probably would fire that person, FWIW. You’re supposed to do your best work early on. She’s only been available 1/4 of the time you’ve needed her.

    5. TheLazyB*

      It would be highly unlikely that they would still be working at my company after that… and I work in the uk public sector where it takes quite a lot to get fired.

      Unlesss they had an EXTREMELY good reason that was unlikely to repeat.

      1. Temperance*

        A friend of mine was hit by a drunk driver after only being at a job for 5 weeks. They’re holding her position (or A position) for her when she’s able to return in a few months. I consider that reasonable and very kind, because it was obviously not predictable even a little and through no fault of her own.

          1. Temperance*

            Thank you! She was pretty severely injured, but she’s been in intense PT and is on the mend. She’s doing much better, and we’re all hopeful that she’ll be 100% again soon.

            I personally can’t wait to see the loser who injured her go to prison … but that’s a different story. …

    6. Rat Racer*

      Do you mean that she’s only put in full 40-hour weeks for 2 out of the 8? Or that she has only worked for a total of 80 hours out of the 320 in an 8 week cycle?

      Probably it doesn’t matter, either is bad.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      She’s actually not available to do the job.

      If you want to, you could explain the expectations of your employer and ask her for a time frame of how much longer it will be for her to return and work 40 hours a week every week. But to me it sounds like she is detached from having much concern for the job.

      I was at a job for about 5-6 weeks. I fell off a bike at 60 mph. I called and explained. I knew I would be out a few weeks at any rate and I said I was worried about my job. They tried to say something nice that would calm me down. About a week or two later I hobbled in and sat down to talk to someone. I could not put regular pants on and when I sat I could not bend my knees, I had to angle the chair so my legs would fit. It was interesting… no it was embarrassing, I must have been wearing ten miles of gauze. The boss thanked me profusely for coming in so they could see what the problems were and why it would be a while. (I wanted them to see me.) I had a time frame from the doc for my return date. I said I understood if they had to give the position to someone else. He said they would wait. When I returned I did not miss a day for over a year.

      I think my level of concern, my efforts to communicate and the fact that I nailed down a return date before they asked helped my situation.

  63. Lynne879*

    When filling our a job application, has anyone ever left the salary history blank?

    Like many people, I hate it when applications ask for salary history because it’s just a tool to lowball people instead of paying them for the actual quality of their work. The next time I see an application that asks for salary history, can I leave them blank? Would that make a difference depending on how high leveled the job position is? I would just be applying to an entry level position.

    1. CM*

      Yes, there have been questions here about this before and people have left it blank, or filled in $0 or $100 or some other nonsense number. For an entry level position, it’s really irrelevant.

    2. Tableau Wizard*

      If they aren’t required fields, I leave them blank. (Though I’m currently trying to leave my first post-college job, so I haven’t (a) had success with this yet or (b) done this previously)

    3. Leatherwings*

      On paper applications, I often do this. I only ever fill those out once I’m already at an interview, so I figure they like me enough already. I’ve also put in zero or one on online applications where *something* is required. There’s always a chance they’ll just disregard an incomplete application, but I’m really not interested in working for a place that requires that disclosure (particularly in the application stage), so that’s a risk I’m willing to take.

    4. writelhd*

      I’m interested in this too!

      My husband leaves all salary history fields blank in every situation where it’s asked for them on applications, and I worry it’s not a good idea and is holding him back, but he’s really set on it. I can’t say if it’s working against him or not–there are some institutions where he’s been a reasonably qualified candidate and applied for multiple decent fit jobs over the past several years and never heard a thing back–but they are huge organizations with ATS software and his work history is unique so who knows if leaving salary blank has anything to do with it. He *has* gotten some interviews, including at least one I know of for a local government job with an ATS system that wanted to know every single past job and the salary for each, so that is one small anecdotal evidence that some places won’t be put off by that being blank.

    5. Beautiful Loser*

      I am one who is paid way under market for what I do. Like 20K+ salary gap. That said, I do not disclose my current salary or my salary history. If its a mandatory field that wont take zero for an answer, I will type in 1234567. If that holds my applications back from some organizations, I think that maybe those are places I would not want to work at anyway.

    6. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Saw a post on the Evil HR Lady blog this week that asking salary history is now illegal in a couple of states and seems to be a growing trend. The explanation is that this information is too often used to justify paying women less for equal work. FWIW I never give that information and if asked I turn it around and ask if the job pays market rates. I’ve found that companies that get upset about this were generally trying to lowball me anyways so it’s not a loss when they ended the interview at that point.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      I put $0 if I can because that annoys the shit out of me, or “negotiable.” But some systems won’t let you do that, so I just sigh and fill it in, only if it’s a required field and I think the job might be worth doing.

  64. Grant Writer*

    Short version, I have a peer who has never received professional development or training in a number of duties that fall under her portfolio, such as creating budgets, nor will her department provide that support. Due to my unfortunately combative supervisor, she hasn’t been able to see how our team (development) can really support her team (programs). We had a one-on-one conversation that became somewhat emotional where we wound up laying all our frustrations and misunderstandings on the table and ended with me agreeing to (coach? mentor? I don’t know…) her in some of what she is missing using resources from my professional association and just my own experience.

    Any suggestions on how to best structure this? She is a peer (actually, she is technically senior to me in the hierarchy) and we work pretty closely together. My boss is incredibly frustrated by how difficult it is to interact with my colleague’s department. I have only trained junior staff. I’m not totally sure how to best approach this.

    1. CM*

      It sounds like you have a pretty good idea of what her department needs, so you could structure it as “here are your needs, here are the resources we have that can help” with specific examples of the support you can offer. Then you could collaborate with her to figure out a plan for addressing the areas that she needs help with.

  65. regina phalange*

    PTO question – do you use all your allotted PTO? Does your company allow you to rollover days or pay out unused days? I am a person who uses every last hour because it is very important to me, but then I feel guilty for doing so when those around me (including my boss) are bragging about how few PTO days they used in a calendar year.

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      Yeah, I use it all (and I encourage my direct reports to plan out their time so they can use it all without creating a skeleton crew in December).

      If you don’t use it all, you have worked for free and you have lost the game. It sucks when you work for someone who thinks that never taking a break = heroism and makes you feel guilty for using your agreed-upon benefits!

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Unless you can roll it over.

        I get a lot of PTO, and I can carry over a lot (1.5 times my annual allotment, so I can let it build up over time). When I leave, PTO will be paid out (at the salary I have at that time). So, I consider it an investment. PTO that I earned when I made less will be paid out at a higher rate when I leave.

        This only works because I have plenty of PTO (2x what my husband has), so I still get to take all the time I need.

    2. ArtK*

      I use a lot of it. There’s nothing noble in not using a benefit provided by the company. (Although see my post above about the opposite attitude.)

      I’m in California so the rollover rules are odd. My company allows me to roll over 200 hours. There was a time where I was actually losing it, but someone pointed out to me that that meant that I was working for for some days!

    3. Tableau Wizard*

      We rollover most PTO, except stuff like personal holidays, etc. I use all of it except a “reserve” for emergencies (which is currently being built back up after one of those emergencies)

      People who brag about not using PTO are silly and you should ignore them. In my experience, its the same people who casually mention that they were here til 7 last night when you left at the appropriate time.

    4. Not Karen*

      I don’t use all of it, but I use as much as I want. We can rollover up to 240 hours and we get the payout upon leaving the company.

    5. ThatGirl*

      I use all of mine! We are encouraged strongly to, and it’s use-it-or-lose it, no rollover.

      If you are let go before you’ve actually used all of your accrued PTO, state law dictates a payout, but that’s not really incentive not to use it. Maybe just not to use all of it at once and go into “PTO debt”. :)

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        Actually, funny story. The rollover-payout rule is new, and when the VP of Ops was explaining it at a staff meeting and got to the part about “people with over X hours banked something something” (I stopped listening at that point), our bookkeeper/HR person jumped in and said, “VP, you’re the only person with that many hours banked.” She’s a crazy workaholic, but at least she doesn’t expect everyone else to be.

    7. LCL*

      I keep a lot on the books, because I don’t lose it. I am allowed to get some paid out, which I take advantage of. At this stage in my career I had expected to take a lot more vacation, but I am stuck being the one in town for elderly family. Those of y0u who are young and just starting your careers and wonder what unexpected things you should look out for? Consider being 1-2 years from retirement and taking care of a family member.

    8. SophieChotek*

      I just went through this with my boss and was about to write a similar post!!!!

      I used all my PTO last year — it’s a benefit, I so needed time off to get personal things done, Xmas shopping, etc. Our company allows a small amount of roll-over (40 max), but you can accumulate between 130- and 160 hours in a year, so that’s a lot to lose if you don’t use it!
      But my boss brags about how he’s NEVER used PTO (except when he was really really really sick, like in the hospital sick) for 10 years and how he is on call 24/7, etc.

      So I use it — but I admit i’m afraid that my boss thinks I am not dedicated enough to my job (he’s pretty much implied that because of my desire to use PTO and he has to approve it all — he said “I laughed when I saw your requests to use your PTO, I never…”…so I am concerned that could hurt any future recommendations he could give me.

    9. Anon10111973*

      I use it and I do not feel guilty. It is my time that I have earned.
      Folks that don’t use it are leaving money on the table.

      Super goofy example: Any overtime accrued in a week is lost if we take a sick day that same week. Coworker whines about how much she hates overtime and doesn’t want to work it. Racks up about 10 hours overtime between M-Th, calls out sick* on Friday. WHAT?!?! The only person you just screwed is yourself.
      *Yes, it was a sick day. Not a vacation or personal day and she was not sick, nor did she have any appointments or errands. She bragged about it!

      1. Red Reader*

        In general, I don’t disagree — but sometimes strategically holding onto your PTO can increase its value. I didn’t take any PTO for a six-month stretch once, because my team was offered OT and I wanted to maximize it — so when I got promoted into a new position at a 34% raise, the PTO I had accrued during those six months was suddenly worth a third again as much as it would’ve been before.

        (Your coworker was clearly not strategizing. Goofy is a good word there. :P )

    10. Lemon Zinger*

      I bank PTO in case of emergency. I was once in a car accident and took off a week of work, most of which was unpaid, because I didn’t have any PTO left. I’m not about to let that happen again. I currently have about a week of PTO and a week of sick time in the bank.

      1. Felicia*

        I do that too because an unexpected surgery that had me out for two weeks… I used my week of sick time but didn’t have a full week of vacation left. I try to use it all by the end of the year, though we can roll over 5 days, which I end up always doing

    11. yarnowl*

      I use every minute of my PTO! I usually reserve a few days for sickness/emergencies, and if those don’t get used up by the end of the year I take a couple of long weekends to use them up.

      There’s nothing to be proud of about being overworked and not using a benefit that’s given to you! That’s like bragging about paying for a dental procedure out of pocket when you have insurance coverage.

    12. Michele*

      Our company has gotten stricter about how much PTO we can roll over, and we have to use it all by the end of Q1 of the following year. I don’t understand the policy because it means that in March, half of the staff is out.
      I take every day that I am owed. It usually isn’t hard because my family lives out of state, so visits are time-consuming. Most people in our department will take everyday, and I have seen people who had an excess be told by management that they need to take time off.

    13. FN2187*

      Absolutely! My organization is use it or lose it, and I use every last minute. We have separate sick leave which can be rolled over to the next calendar year in case of emergency.

    14. Tahiti Dreaming*

      I use all of my PTO because we have a use it or lost it policy, except for sick days. We get 3 a year and they rollover, but personal & vacation do not. I DO NOT feel guilty. It’s part of my benefits and people need time off from work.

    15. Gene*

      I’m a municipal employee, so I can accumulate up to 960 hours sick leave and, with my seniority, up to 400 hours of vacation leave. Every year, we also get 16 hours “Personal Time” that can’t be rolled over. I’ve been accumulating vacation time, as I will be taking a lot of time this year, so I’m near the maximum. In our office, it’s normal to save up leave time and take big chunks; I once left for a month to go to Australia.

      When retirement time rolls around (about 6 years), I’ll get paid out 10% of my accumulated sick leave and a maximum of 240 hours of vacation.

    16. Red Reader*

      We have a PTO bucket, sick and vacation and holiday* time all together, and I have a hard time using it all. I just got back from a week off, I have a partial week later this month, a week in May, two weeks in Aug/Sept for my wedding all booked, and according to my running spreadsheet total for PTO used and accrued, including the interim holidays, I still haven’t managed to get below 90 hours PTO remaining in my bucket at any point this year. I treat it all as vacation time personally — I work fully remote, so there’s only been one time in the last three and a half years where I was legitimately too sick to work. If I’m not going to infect anyone else, there’s no reason for me not to work with the sniffles or whatever, and nobody else is coming into my office to give me their hacking crud.

      Each year during open enrollment, you can choose to have PTO paid out at 80% in (July?) of the following year, if you meet certain criteria, and you can roll over without limit, but you stop accruing when you hit I think it’s 300 hours. Your vacation is paid out at your ending salary when you leave the organization.

      *Which I actually think is awesome, at least for my team, because if someone doesn’t care about one of the six official holidays, they can just work it like a regular day and keep the PTO and use it for whatever other day they want, be it another religious holiday or an extra vacation day or whatever.

    17. AnonAnon294*

      I really only use vacation days (have separate sick/vacation banks) when I’m job searching but that’s because I’m too poor to go on vacation. Another one of my motivations for saving up PTO is I like to accumulate as many days as possible so I can get a nice fat vacation payout.

    18. Annie Mouse*

      I’m in the UK so I know that it is vastly different but the organization I’ve just started working for let’s you request leave but if you haven’t requested it by a certain point, it’s allocated for you. You can then swap it if you want to/need to.
      Sick time is a certain number of weeks paid but if you have more than a certain number of instances in 12 months, you’ll be questioned about what’s causing the frequency of sickness. Which feels like a low number given that we frequently get exposed to lots of really lovely illnesses!!

    19. hermit crab*

      I’d like to, but I don’t. :(

      We work on a billable hours model and if you take all your leave, you won’t meet your “billability ” target, unless you work super long hours at other times to make up for it (or never, ever do any indirect work, but that’s unrealistic for most people; you have to do business development to get ahead).

      To be fair, you never lose the money — vacation time automatically cashes out when you accrue too much (and when you leave), so it’s not like you miss out on a benefit. But I’d really like to take more time off!

    20. Chaordic One*

      I took the odd day off, but used most of my PTO for sick leave and family emergencies and funerals. (2015 was particularly bad year where I had a couple of minor surgeries and a couple of deaths in the family.) I always tried to have a couple of weeks of PTO in reserve, just in case I got sick or another family emergency popped up. When I was fired, I received a payout equal to the amount of my unused PTO.

    21. PepperVL*

      I’m allowed to roll over 5 days. In 2105, I made sure to roll them all over, since I took a 2 week trip to Japan in April 2015, and I needed them all. In 2016, I rolled over something like 30 hours. I like to keep some available in case I get sick (we don’t have separate sick leave) but unless I have vacation plans, I don’t like to have more than the 40 hours I can roll over in my bucket.

    22. tigerStripes*

      I use all of it except what I can roll over. Vacations are good for renewal, even if they’re staycations. Vacations prevent burn out.

      Then again, where I work, most people do this.

  66. Leigh*

    Thanks, all, for feedback on the current salary Q I had a few weeks back. I was told on the following Monday they would not be recommending me to speak with the hiring manager. I’ve noticed that the mandatory current salary field is popping up again on big company HR sites, like Accenture and Deloitte. Has anyone ever put a zero in that field and still been called for an interview? As a reminder, I’m gunshy about stating that outright because it torpedoed a job offer when I was deemed unworthy of an offer because my current salary is about $15-20K under market (because I am a contractor and not in-house) and the HR person wouldn’t approve such a significant bump from current.

    1. Not A Morning Person*

      What a ridiculous reason not to hire someone, because the applicant didn’t make enough money at a previous job. That is so short-sighted of that organization. And it says that they are too rules-bound to be creative or flexible.

  67. AndersonDarling*

    I saw an ad for a “POS Associate.” I know that’s a real thing, but I couldn’t stop laughing at it. Couldn’t they come up with a better title? I couldn’t imaging having a business card with POS Associate on it.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      This is one thing I just loathe. No, it’s not a POS Associate. The position is “cashier.” The jargonfication of job titles drives me bananas.

      1. Sasha*

        Ugh agreed. It’s all so opaque and silly. The same goes for the other end of it – I’m getting increasingly annoyed at companies that force their cashiers call customers anything other than “customers.” I was at DSW recently and they make their cashiers call customers “shoe-lovers.” As in, “Next shoe-lover at register 4!” Just let people do their jobs and everyone can just accept that this is a financial transaction.

        1. Victoria, Please*

          I haaaaate when my auto shop calls me a “guest.” I’m paying you $582 to fix my car. The cookie in the lounge does not make me a guest!

      4. Hilorious*

        Boyfriend just informed me that sometimes his title gets cut off as “Data Scientist, Anal.”
        Hahahahahaa

    3. Gene*

      At one of my regular lunchtime restaurants, when the server was having problems with it, I said, “There’s a reason that it’s called a POS.” She lost it right there and had to sit down because she was laughing so hard.

      I miss that place. It sold, they kept the menu, but it’s never been the same.

  68. Potential paralegal*

    I’m looking at changing careers and one of the things that’s piqued my interest is becoming a paralegal. I’m already pursuing a real estate license, and eventually moving from that to real estate paralegal seems like a logical move. Any AAM readers in this field? What is it like, pros and cons, what skills and personality traits are really important, etc?

    1. Lillian Styx*

      I wasn’t a paralegal in RE specifically, but generally it helps to be extremely well organized and to have a really good memory and eye for details. Lawyers tend to be more big picture/theoretical-legal-issue thinkers so the paralegal needs to make sure all the lower-case Js are dotted, all the lines are signed and all the things are filed in triplicate on time. If you interact with clients you may find yourself having to translate information from legalese–either from the lawyer’s mouth or the law itself. Patience helps. Understanding and accepting that the lawyer paid thousands of dollars to be brainwashed into thinking in a completely different way from normal people and it is how they have to be to do their job helps too :)

    2. Former RE Paralegal*

      Hi there! I was a real estate paralegal for three years, working in title insurance litigation and commercial real estate closings. I’ve switched to a different area of law now, but I really liked working in real estate.
      I like to say that lawyers handle the theory and we (paralegals) handle the procedure – in real estate litigation, that means that the lawyer will be the one working on such things as the theory of the case, the specific legal arguments and what they plan to use to prove up their case, and it’s the paralegal’s job to translate that into actual court forms and documents, making sure all of the i’s are dotted and the t’s are crossed, as noted above, so attention to detail and knowledge of procedure is really important.
      But that will also vary from lawyer to lawyer and firm to firm – every place I’ve worked at seems to use their paralegals a little bit differently. If you work closely with one attorney or several, you’ll get to know their style and it’s a big part of your job to adjust to that. It helps to be flexible. Some positions will involve more independent work, but in others you may very well be acting as “your” attorney’s right arm, and you’re inseparable. Important skills include your basic office stuff – I was a temp admin while I was in school and so many of those skills ended up being transferable. I’m still amazed by how many gifted attorneys don’t know squat about technology, but they don’t necessarily need to – that is what we’re for. I also did a lot of collecting, evaluating and presenting information – going through big stacks of documents to find the individual pieces of information needed for any given case, and sharing my findings with the attorneys. I love research and reading so that was always a favorite task, but I’m weird like that.

  69. Autistic Anon*

    I was put on a PIP, and I’m afraid it was because of a discriminatory coworker’s negative review of me.

    Background facts: I was diagnosed with autism at a very young age and continue to see a therapist today. I am high functioning and I am a successful, independent adult with a healthy social life, but I still have a lot of difficulties which therapy helps me with. I am aware that some of my behaviors might seem “off” to someone who is not autistic.

    Other background fact: My boss and I don’t work closely together. So he is reliant on coworker accounts for performance reviews.

    I’ve been at this job for about 6 months. For the first 3-4, I worked closely with a really nasty coworker (call them Wakeen) who said hateful things about basically everyone in the company. One time, Wakeen blew up at me and started saying things like calling me “socially retarded,” and saying I act like a serial killer and the cops need to search my house for dead bodies. They went on this rant in front of several senior colleagues, though none of them are in my reporting line. Wakeen says other, less extreme things in the office on a regular basis.

    A little while after that, for unrelated reasons, I stopped working with Wakeen.

    Fast forward to today. I had my first performance review with my boss, and he said that I have done fantastically well over the last couple of months, but when I started here I was a very low performer, and for that reason I have been given a lower rating and put on a PIP.

    Based on the time frame and events my boss mentioned, I’m worried that my Wakeen absolutely trashed me to the boss. I want to protect myself from this. The PIP I was presented with uses nebulous and hard to measure metrics like saying I need to “show more leadership” and because of that I’m afraid Wakeen (who is senior and absolutely never getting fired or disciplined) went after me so badly that they’re trying to push me out of this company. It sounds like some of the nightmare PIPs that other AAM readers and commenters have mentioned.

    I have a meeting with my boss to go over the PIP today. I want to protect myself from this, but I’m not sure what to say. I’ve talked with a few of my friends and we’ve come to the conclusion that I bring up Wakeen’s behavior and explain that I’m worried that they went after me because of my autism, that it’d be discrimination (on Wakeen’s part, not my boss’s!) because autism is covered by the ADA, and ask if I can go to HR to make a complaint and request an investigation of Wakeen.

    I’m going to emphasize that I’m NOT making a complaint about my boss, but Wakeen, and that we need to go to HR about this because if I’m right, Wakeen could be opening the company up to lawsuits.

    Even though I’ve planned this out and rehearsed it, I am still very worried. My boss is a young guy and he could handle this well or he could wig out and have me escorted out of the building. Wish me luck.

    1. Amber Rose*

      That really, honestly sucks. I have no advice but all my fingers and toes are crossed for you. I hope your meeting goes well.

    2. kbeers0su*

      Does your boss know that you have autism? If not, I would explain what that means for you (what things you struggle with) and how you think that may be impacting your work. Also, see if you can get specific examples to help clear up the vague “show more leadership” feedback. You may find that boss didn’t do due diligence in vetting the feedback they got from others, and this conversation may help boss reassess.

      Also, it seems odd to me that you’re on a PIP based on past performance and not current performance. If nothing else, I would make sure that’s clear in your evaluation/PIP.

      1. Autistic Anon*

        I tried to frame it as Alison’s advice on when you think your company may be doing something illegal: I repeatedly said “I think you have handled everything right, I would do the same exact things you’ve done if I were in your position. I trust you. It’s not about complaints I have about you. This is about how I’m afraid Wakeen is acting in bad faith, and how we can address that and resolve my fear of that.”

        Unfortunately I don’t think my boss (not Wakeen) got it, because he kept saying he trusts Wakeen.

        Ultimately I think this will come down to whether the company values Wakeen or I more. They have also complained of discrimination over a protected class. The silver lining is that I am not complaining about management but a colleague.

    3. DaisyGrrl*

      Good luck today. The lower rating in the performance review sucks, but the PIP doesn’t make sense to me. If your performance has improved, why put you on a performance improvement plan?

      I hope everything works out and you get clarity. And definitely report Wakeen to HR. The company needs to stop him from these comments, especially since they appear to raise issues of ADA compliance (assuming that you’ve disclosed your condition to your employer. If not, it may be time to do so).

      1. Autistic Anon*

        I also have severe anxiety and I disclosed that to my boss a while ago. So he has known that I have mental health issues but not autism. But concerning that, you can say or do discriminatory things against someone for their orientation or religion even if they don’t tell you what their orientation or religion are. I’m sure I have some “tells”.

        I’m going to HR too. The only issue is that Wakeen has discrimination claims against management too, so I’m afraid it’ll come down to them letting the less valuable one of us go.

        1. Zip Silver*

          If nobody knows that you have autism, then it’s not being actively discriminatory. If Wakeen is saying you’re strange, and nobody knows why, then you’ll just be known as the strange anon.

          1. Autistic Anon*

            I was under the impression that most discrimination laws judged discrimination by perceived status. If they’re mistreating you because they believe you’re a member of a protected class, whether you are a member of that class or not (or another one) then it’s discrimination. Of course, IANAL.

            For example, when Sikhs have been attacked because some ignorant monster thinks they’re Muslim that’s still considered a hate crime — not that this is on the same level as a hate crime.

            1. Zip Silver*

              Is being socially awkward a protected class? Obviously, being autistic is, but if he doesn’t think you’re autistic, then I think it changes the situation.

              1. Autistic Anon*

                They know that I visit a therapist but I haven’t disclosed my diagnosis to Wakeen.

                If I take boss and HR’s reactions to be sincere, they think calling someone seeking mental health care “retarded” is extremely questionable at best.

    4. BRR*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. It sounds like you’re doing the right things. Definitely ask for clarification on murky things in the PIP (if you get clearer goals maybe ask to add them in writing) and ask for examples so you know what you need to do. Depending on how your manager is you could also ask why you’re being put on a PIP now after months of good performance.

      I would definitely report Wakeen. As to when you do it, I’m not sure a PIP meeting is the right time. I don’t think your or Wakeen’s employment will be determined by choosing one of you. There are a lot of possibly things going on but maybe they want to fire Wakeen but are scared of a lawsuit and your complaint gives them cause (not saying that’s a clear front runner but maybe nobody likes him).

      1. Autistic Anon*

        I reported Wakeen to our boss and to HR. Shortly after I did, I got an email adding more items to my PIP.

        My current plan of action is to call a lawyer, report this to HR again as retaliation, and to report everything to both my state’s labor board and the EEOC.

    5. MWKate*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. What he said to you is so inappropriate and whether those senior employees were in your reporting line or not something should have been addressed there.

      As far as the PIP goes – measures like ‘show more leadership’ are hard to read for a lot of people. I don’t think your boss would see anything odd about you asking to sit down and discuss it further and ask for examples on these areas.

      One thing to note – is that just because you aren’t aware of someone being disciplined, doesn’t mean they aren’t. However, since it appears his behavior towards you has continued, I would assume that what he said to you wasn’t addressed.

      Good luck, let us know how it went.

      1. Autistic Anon*

        About an hour after the meeting with my boss, he emailed me addingany other itemtk the PIP. I’m pretty sure this is retaliation.

      2. Autistic Anon*

        I tried to write a reply before, but I wasn’t wearing glasses so it’s for the better that it got eaten by the internet.

        A few hours after our meeting, I saw my boss talking to Wakeen in a meeting too. After that, he emailed me adding another item to the PIP.

        I am not a manager, but this really seems like an attempt by a panicked and incompetent manager to throw one employee under the bus to appease someone else. It seems like obvious retaliation to me. I am going to let myself cool down and then write up retaliation complaints for my company’s HR as well as state and federal employment boards.

  70. Jessesgirl72*

    I hope almost 3 months ago doesn’t count as “recent” for “recently submitted to Alison! ;)

    My husband asked me to post this problem to get advice from the masses.

    My husband’s Manager quit in Mid-October, with almost no notice. The GrandBoss and GreatGrandBoss were in town from corporate headquarters the end of October , to clean up the mess left behind, and conduct the year end reviews. In the course of his review, my husband received very positive feedback, was questioned extensively about the department, as they feel they don’t really know enough about the day to day since they aren’t on site, and strongly encouraged my husband to apply for the newly vacant Manager’s position.

    The only problem is that a that the time we were in the middle stages of having a baby via Surrogate in a European country (eggs were retrieved and fertilized the day I wrote the letter to Alison) and as of tomorrow, the fetus will be 14 weeks. He will need to take a month off next summer for the baby’s birth and while we wait on the passport to be issued. He will have enough PTO to cover this month, although he had reasonably good expectations of getting permission to work remotely for some of the time, in his current position- really good expectations now, as a coworker was just granted permission to work remotely from an Asian country for 2 months while he visits family. .He was going to discuss this with his Manager in about another month. Now, however, he wonders if he should disclose this information during the process of interviewing for the new position. Would mentioning it make it less likely they would be willing promote him into a Manager’s position? Are a man’s reproductive plans as protected as a woman’s would be, practically as well as legally? He now even wonders if he should remove himself from being considered for the position.

    Of course, the way this is going, the baby will be born before they fill the position! He was told to apply on November 5th. The posting finally was made just before Thanksgiving. His interview is scheduled for Feb 6th. (Big companies are sloooowwwww)

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        The problem is that by company policy, he’s going to have to tell his bosses at about 20 weeks to ask for the remote work permission, when we fully expect they won’t have made anyone an offer yet. It’s only 4 weeks away, and it’s taken them 16 weeks to do the interviews!

    2. AnonAnalyst*

      I would just wait and tell the manager as planned, unless he gets an offer before then (which seems unlikely given the current pace of their hiring process). But if things speed up and he gets an offer before disclosing it to his manager, I would mention it at the offer stage.

      I wouldn’t remove myself from consideration, especially since it seems like the company is open to extended remote work arrangements for family leave situations. And honestly, given the speed of this hiring process, it may not even be a problem; if they aren’t making an offer until later this spring, it might be easy to push the start date until after his leave.

  71. Kristie*

    I need some advice. I hate my job and really want to quit, but so far have not found another job to leave for. Should I stick it out until I can find something else, or should I give my two weeks notice now? I have plenty of savings, my husband is employed full-time, and I am so unhappy that I would like to just be done with my current place. The only thing holding me back is not knowing how I would explain to a potential employer why I left my job without something lined up? I’m a teacher and am just really hating what I do. I dread getting up and going to work in the morning. The kids’ behavior is awful and the administration does nothing about it. It really makes teaching unpleasant. I am looking for non-teaching jobs. I just want to leave teaching; I know it’s not for me.
    Any advice? Have you ever stayed at a job that you HATED and how did you get through it?

    1. Anon E. Muss*

      Yep. I’ve been there for two years now. I do my best to focus on things I enjoy outside of work. I’ve decided to stay because, although I have plenty of savings, I’ve been applying since two months after I started the job and I haven’t gotten any offers (except a PT thing that wouldn’t pay the bills). I hear again and again it’s easier to find a job if you’re already employed, so I’d urge you to stay if you can. I realize how difficult it is to do, but I think you’ll thank yourself in the end. If you have free time, try volunteering at places you’d like to work or at places that does the kind of work you’d like to do. Best of luck.

    2. Emotionally Neutral Grad*

      Coming from someone who is not a teacher, has never taught, but has a large number of public school teachers in her family, I have a few ideas but am not sure how well they’ll work for you. Please don’t take this as expert advice, but hopefully these will help:
      Do not quit without having some backup for a long-term substitute in place, obviously. One good technique I’ve seen is taking on a student teacher who requires classroom experience before being licensed. If you express interest in that person taking your position before you leave, it both gives you an out on good terms and helps find a job for someone else.
      Second, are there non-teaching opportunities available in the same building? I once had a high school teacher transition from teaching (not a computer-related subject) to managing the then-newly formed IT department mid-year. If something like that helps preserve your sanity, it might be worth a shot.

    3. yo yo yo*

      This stigma against people quitting without another job lined up has got to go. Almost everyone I know has been in this situation where they are hurting their physical and mental health to stick around in a job where they are miserable. For what?! Yes, some need the money, but others can afford it and are just worried about what other people will think.

      If you are in a financial position to do it, go ahead. There will be people who will think less of you, but there are also people who will respect you. I promise. Since you are looking to reinvent yourself, I would sign up for some class related to what you want to do. That gives you an easy excuse if you need it.

      1. Karanda Baywood*

        I agree 100%. Is it ideal? Maybe mot. Is it necessary? Hell yes.

        If anyone asks, you can say any number of things to explain/create an excuse for why you left w/o another job.

          1. yo yo yo*

            “Because of XYZ, I recognized that teaching was not my calling and I wasn’t giving students the full attention they deserved. I found Wakeen, who was looking for my kind of job and helped get him transitioned into my role.”

            Everyone also knows what a mess higher ed administration can be, so you can always delicately word something about “The school board was not doing what was in the best interests of the students, and I could not ethically continue to work there.”

            Then there is always… my family needed me or health issues that have since resolved (yes, mental health issues count).

            2. Rob Lowe can't read*

              I’m not sure about the school board one, to be honest. I’d be really cautious about declaring that you quit because of the board’s unethical behavior unless there’s actually unethical behavior occurring. (I think there can be a difference between “behavior that is unethical” and “behavior that I don’t like.” The latter does not always equal the former.)

              1. urban teacher*

                Fellow teacher in a job she hates also saying try to make it through the year. I am finding that working on the things to get me out of the job help a lot. I worked on my resume, I skim job ads even at work. My issue is I have the para from hell who makes my skin crawl but knowing I’m out of there in May makes a difference. My only concern is I’ve developed bad tennis elbow and have problems working with the kids. I may leave because of it.

      2. Bad Candidate*

        I tend to agree. I’ve been looking for a new job for a long time, so I fail to see how it’s easier to find a job while employed. We had a wellness assessment this week here at work. At 8:30 in the morning my blood pressure was so high that they had to have two different people check it a total of three times. It was borderline “Leave and go to the ER” high. It was normal at my doctor’s appointment last Friday. But financially, things would be super tight, and now they’ve started layoffs at my husband’s company, so things are even more precarious. I wish I had advice. Lay back and think of England, I guess.

      3. Freya UK*

        100% agree.

        Financially, if you are in a place to just quit then do it. Nothing is worth compromising your health and peace for – no job, and no opinions from unsupportive people.

    4. fposte*

      Sounds pretty sucky, that’s for sure. I think this is a little more challenging than leaving other jobs, because even outside of education you’ll encounter people with concerns about somebody who left mid-year. I think that’s the real factor here rather than leaving without something else lined up.

      Are you on a contract? What does it say about early departures?

      1. Kristie*

        Yes, we have a contract but it is silent on leaving mid-year. Another teacher just put in her two weeks notice and the administration hasn’t made an issue of it.

        I know I definitely won’t go back to teaching, so part of me doesn’t worry about leaving mid-year. But another part of me does worry that it could be seen as a red flag to future employers. Why did she leave mid-year? Was she fired? Etc.

        I guess I was just hoping that future employers would take my explanation at face value – I realized teaching wasn’t for me, found a job in a field that I wanted to pursue, and gave two weeks notice.

        1. Jenbug*

          If I was a hiring manager, I would probably be put off by the fact that you didn’t stick it out until the end of the school year. Yes, it sucks, but it’s only another 3-4 months. You could start applying/interviewing and I would let your employer know that you aren’t planning to return after this year, but it would definitely be a red flag to me that you left in the middle of February because you decided the position wasn’t for you. Especially if it created a gap in employment.

          1. fposte*

            That’s why I think teaching is a little different–leaving mid-term is so obviously an inconvenience and a break from convention that the stakes are higher for justification.

    5. Delta Delta*

      I recently left a professional position without another lined up. I loved my actual work, but I realized that over 18-24 months or so that I loved the work but not the workplace. I noticed I was doing things to be away from the office; if I had 2 off-site meetings I’d find reasons not to go back to the office between meetings – things like that. When I realized this was happening and I’d need to leave or I was going to explode, I started saving up and looking for a new position. Then some very crappy things happened and those became good excuses for me to get out. I didn’t want to leave without something else set up but I realized I couldn’t stay. Here’s what I wonder for you – you’re a teacher. Can you make it through to the end of the school year? I know for me, once I had resolved in my mind that I was going to leave, it made it easier to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Then when I gave my notice (about 5 months after actually deciding to leave) I was really set up and ready to move on. I don’t know if this helps, but maybe gives another way of looking at it.

    6. Nynaeve*

      Massive sympathies! I taught high school for a year and it was the single most stressful time of my life. That said…I would at least try to last out the year. Teaching is one of the few jobs that still tends to be contract rather than at-will, so you would be breaking the contract, which pretty much torpedoes any future reference. Also, it is massively disruptive if a teacher leaves in the middle of the year, especially without notice.

      If you stay, look for mentors in your school or local area. Ask how they handle the issues you have problems with, especially classroom discipline. Borrow liberally from other lesson plans and don’t try to reinvent the wheel. See if you can get TAs to help with grading. Try to find redeeming characteristics in at least one child and focus on that. Let go of the idea of perfection. If nothing caught fire, it’s a good day. Release the guilt and know that you’re probably being asked the impossible.

      If you do leave, try to mitigate the effects as much as possible. Leave lesson plans and document everything. Ask if there’s anything you can do to help arrange for a sub, if relevant (it may be in private schools, probably not do much in public). You can explain it as personal health issues if it crosses the line into being a mental health issue. If not, just stick to, “I’m so sorry, but I won’t be able to finish out the year.”

      Sorry for the awful situation. Good luck!

    7. Dr. KMnO4*

      From my perspective it’s less about quitting without a job lined up and more about what job you are quitting. I used to teach at a public high school. From your description it sounds like we had similar issues with administration. That job is what convinced me to leave K-12 education. But…I stuck it out through the entire year. I understand that you hate going to work every morning but you have a responsibility to those kids. If I were hiring and one of the applicants was a former teacher who quit halfway through the year I would have serious concerns about their reliability and sense of personal responsibility. My suggestion is to stick it out for the next 5 months. And maybe try different classroom management strategies- it will be harder at this point in the year but it’s possible to make changes in their behavior.

    8. KellyK*

      I sympathize a lot. I taught middle school for a couple years and had a lot of the same issues. I ended up leaving at the end of the school year without anything lined up but doing a lot of job-hunting over the summer. I think I put in my notice in April, but that should be spelled out by your contract. For me, leaving was easy to explain in interviews because I also moved to be with my fiancée (now my husband) in a different state.

      If you can stand to stick it out until the school year ends, that also gives you a good explanation for leaving without anything else lined up. That would time your departure to minimize disruption, since schools expect to hire new teachers during the summer anyway. Continuing to job-search when you’re looking to leave education might mean leaving in October and having the students taught by a long-term sub the whole year, which is less than ideal. You might also have a longer notice period than employers outside of education will be able to accommodate if you leave during the school year.

    9. Sibley*

      If you can afford it, your husband supports it, then I’d say quit. But be SURE first.

      Oh, just saw: you’re a teacher – I don’t think you should quit mid-school year. Sorry. But totally after year ends!

    10. AnonAnon294*

      Given your financial circumstances, I think you should quit. Do it for the kids. If you hate your job as much as you say you do, that is definitely showing through in your performance doing your job and the kids deserve better.

      I’m in my notice period at a job that I absolutely dread and it was tough sticking it out. Honestly, if I had the savings I would’ve quit without nothing lined up.

      1. Kristie*

        I totally agree about it showing in my performance and affecting the kids. I think about that a lot.

        Thanks And good luck with your new job!

  72. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

    I am on Day 2 of being back at (not) OldJob (anymore). I don’t yet have a computer, phone, or log-on. I’m squatting at someone’s desk who is out today and working off of my personal email. I am happier and more energized than I have been in months. Sure, it’ll be better when I have my own workstation, but in the meantime I am so grateful to be back where I belong.

  73. Clever Name*

    I think my coworker is about to be put on a PIP, or at least steps leading up to one. And he thinks he’s doing well (!). I don’t know what types of conversations our manager has been having with him, but I know I’ve personally told him that he can come off as pretentious, and I also told him that he gets really argumentative and defensive often. He frequently asks me to review stuff for him, which is part of my job. However, he argues with me on every single comment or correction. One day it was the last straw and I lost my temper and yelled at him. So (after apologizing to him the next day) I talked to our manager to let her know what was going on, and she said that they were looking at “next steps”.

    I feel bad for him in a way, but he was hired to be a subject matter expert, and it’s clear that he isn’t. I’m at the point where I wonder if he exaggerated or lied on his resume. He asks me questions he should know the answer to if he’s really an expert. That combined with him being difficult to work with isn’t boding well for him.

    Has anyone else been in this situation? Part of me feels like I should warn him, but I know that the conversation wouldn’t go well (see pretentiousness and argumentativeness above), and it’s not really my place to tell him.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Yeah, my guess is the conversation won’t go well. I’d keep your bosses in the loop when there’s major issues. I would continue to give him specific feedback, and make your willingness to provide comments a little more conditional – “Wakeen, the last few times I’ve provided comments, you’ve given me pushback on all my feedback, so I’d only be able to do that if you’re willing to work with me in good faith.”

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Don’t warn him! Talk to your boss about how his lack of skills is directly harming your ability to do your job. Frame it out of the concern you have for the work. Fergus was hired to do something specific and he’s shown that he can’t do it, and he’s hostile toward feedback he needs. Your boss needs to know about this.

      1. Clever Name*

        Agreed. I did talk to my boss about it (and partly to confess that I had yelled at my coworker :/), and I did raise my concerns about hs proficiency, which wasn’t news to her.

    3. Someone*

      Don’t warn him. It doesn’t directly involve you and you have no “hard” information to give him, only some alternative truths. If you are wrong it will be a mess, and if you are right and he is clueless, then he needs the PIP to really hear what’s going on. Also, it’s already hard enough for your bosses, and throwing gossip and speculation into the mix doesn’t help anyone.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      What would be accomplished by warning him?

      And it puts you in the middle. You told the boss about him and if you tell him what the boss said, it’s not going to look good. Stay out of the middle on this one.

  74. Yellow and Red*

    15 years ago, at the age of 35, I switched industries to one I really love (and still do) but kept a similar position. It was a calculated risk and it paid off for the first few years. As I progressed and grew in the industry, I changed companies to one with different focus, but still in the same industry. At he age of 40, I was working and competing with younger college grads.

    Now I’m 50, and I’m still working the job I had a 40, while the twenty-somethings from 10 years ago have moved up and past me in the industry. And all the while, my higher-ups told me, “you need 5-7 years of street credibility under your belt before you can move up.” Fair enough, but I’ve done more than that and can handle more.

    I know I’m young enough to grow and contribute in my industry, but I’m hoping someone can impart some wisdom or recommend a mantra because I really feel like I’m treated as a “lifer” (I’ve been called that). I don’t want to go back to doing the job I had 15 years ago. I mean, 5 years ago I was just as experienced as the thirty-somethings. And they’ve zoomed past me. Any ideas to keep me sane?

    1. Someone*

      I can’t tell from this if it is your age or your attitude. Have you applied to other companies for better positions (or even the same position)? Have you asked to extend your duties and try your hand at the things you need to do if you are promoted? Asking for a promotion isn’t enough — you have spend some time positioning yourself and showing that you are promotable. At this point, that may only be possible in another company.

    2. underemployed & lost*

      Oh lord I have this same problem.
      Had finally worked myself up to a position & salary of my choice but in an overly stressed & tense situation due to bad management. Got laid off.
      After being unemployed for almost a year, I broke down and took a job doing the same type of job I had 20 years ago at the same rate as 20 years ago. I am now the oldest staff member but treated as a basic entry level clerk and my 35 years of experience mean nothing to anyone. People I have trained have gone on to great positions and I’m left in the dirt because I’m “so good at what you do we couldn’t move you up, no one could replace you!” kinda crap.
      And yes, I’m looking for something else, but how do I get considered for a beter job when I took a 40% paycut just so I was no longer unemployed??

  75. Mimmy*

    Well this sure has been quite the week!! It’s like the stars suddenly started to line up.

    TL;DR – I suddenly have two promising job leads but I have several questions and dilemmas since it’s been so long since I’ve actively interviewed.

    Lead A: For those who may not have seen it in last week’s open thread, I got a call inviting me to apply for an instructional aide position with visually impaired adult students. They actually sought ME out! So, I sent in my resume that afternoon. I now have an interview with them this coming Tuesday. They all know me, so that takes away some of the anxiety. Two questions regarding this:

    1. Is wearing a suit absolutely essential? I have a pants suit, but it probably doesn’t fit anymore. Plus, my husband told me that it’s better to dress for the atmosphere. I’ve been to the place, and no one wears a full suit. Many of the women do dress nicely, but no suit. For context, this place is a state-run training center for visually impaired adults and sometimes high school/college students (I think?).

    2. Is it okay to take notes during an interview, at least to write down concrete info, e.g. job duties, hours, etc.?

    Lead B: I got a call from the director of a different state government agency saying he had a contract job. The project is very short-term (1 month, maybe 5 weeks) and I could do a lot of it from home. It sounds like it’ll entail writing and editing. This is the one that’s giving me more anxiety.

    1. Rather than giving me a sense of what the state pays contractors, he asked me to tell him what I wanted to make. I think he wanted it right then and there, but he let me think about it and let him know by the end of that day. Having zero clue what to ask for as a contractor, I talked to a couple of people. But did I listen? No, and that’s why I’m upset. Most were telling me $X-$Y, whereas I was thinking closer to $A-$B. I totally chickened out – I told him $A; he said he could do that. He then said he’d talk to his finance person about getting me started. I think he was hoping to get back to me by the next day (yesterday) but haven’t heard anything yet. Next time I speak to him and if the topic comes up, I’m just going to tell him I was caught off guard in being asked to give a figure.

    2. This call came a couple hours before getting the call for the instructional aide position. But just now, I talked with someone a bit further about the aide position, and being that it’s part-time, there’s a possibility I could do both if both work out.

    One final question: I have not told Lead B about Lead A, and vice versa. Is this okay?

    I am going to have to soooooo many questions during this process! It’s been so long since I’ve interviewed! I don’t want to jinx any of this! (Yes I am nervous but excited. Can’t you tell? :P )

    1. Dr. KMnO4*

      Regarding Lead A, Question 2., I always take notes during interviews. For one thing, I will never remember everything that’s discussed if I don’t. For another, I have the feeling that it shows you are interested in what’s being conveyed.

      1. vpc*

        I also always go into an interview with notes already written out about what I want to make sure I address: some starter ideas for common questions (for the question about “tell me about your background”, make sure to not forget these three things that led to the interest in this job… when they ask me if I have any questions, pick two from this list of five…”)

        I get flustered when I’m on the spot, and having notes up front — and yes, I take notes during the interview as well – has made interviews go much more smoothly for me.

    2. Lily Rowan*

      I would always recommend a suit, although I don’t think it’s 100% critical. Dressing a step (at least) up from the people in the office is expected, though.

      You can definitely take notes, and you don’t need to tell the jobs about each other unless/until it comes up as a conflict.

      Good luck!

    3. zora*

      I always default to a suit for interviews, because it’s just an accepted convention. But in this case, I think suit-ish separates could be good enough. I would definitely make sure you are wearing a jacket of some kind, but over regular black pants or skirt would be fine. Make it as close to a suit as you can.

      And best of luck!!

  76. NW Mossy*

    So today I’m headed into a feedback session where some of our organizational development folks are going to meet with me and my boss about feedback my team gave on me as their manager. I got the preview document, and overall it’s very positive – my team seems pretty happy with my leadership, which is great. The only negative thing that’s in there is a refrain that they’re concerned that I will leave them to advance my own career in another role.

    Which…. they’re not wrong. A former boss of mine tapped my shoulder last week about a job that’s about to come open on her team, which would be a great next step in my career – bigger team to manage, higher profile, and a good place to build diverse experience for an eventual jump to director. She basically presented it to me as “if you want it, it’s yours.” I do want it, and I’m going to put in for it, but dang, I feel really crappy about getting this “please don’t leave!” feedback from my wonderful team while I’m mentally planning to do just that.

  77. Anon for this*

    Experiencing some growing pains at work. After a long apprenticeship, I feel completely trusted with some tasks and not with others (I think it’s cultural, as the projects that go up to the top get extra oversight – my feedback is generally very good). The problem is it’s not always clear to me when I should use my own judgment on what I’m doing, and when I shouldn’t. We don’t do our projects in a cookie-cutter way – we present things differently and include or exclude information based on the subject and situation (Sorry, trying to be a bit vague as to what I do, as it’s niche.) Sometimes I feel like I haven’t used my own judgment enough, and other times that I haven’t deferred to the judgment of my superiors enough. I think my boss has recently realized that I’m in this kind of in-between place and is trying to give me more explicit instructions for each project, for which I’m grateful. But it’s still a frustrating place to be because sometimes my boss won’t realize what information needs to be included until I present what was agreed on originally – then I feel dumb for sticking to the letter of what he asked for and not including the extra info once I saw it might be needed (I usually always consider it and decide not to). I guess I need to be more flexible and less rigid in interpreting my assignments?

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I was just speaking to a younger colleague about this this week.

      This is truly a difficult place to be in and it really only gets better with experience and time. What you can do, and what would help make your manager’s life better, is if in the instance you have realized info your boss could need but didn’t request, is do the request to his specifications but also note in the meeting or email (and have the information prepared if possible) ” also, I thought this information would also be helpful/necessary because X,Y,Z (as they relate to the overall project)” That shows you are thinking about wider implications and needs and maybe saw an argument your boss didn’t initially when they set the task. For anything project based it can be very difficult to know everything up front, especially explicit tasks, but it is much appreciated if a worker can use some critical thinking skills about additional components as they dug into the tasks.

      Alternatively, you could ask before doing the additional work, something information through an email ” Hey, saw this potential additional information I think could be important for XYZ reasons – should I include it in the final report?” and let the manager think it through and possibly save yourself some time.

      Eventually you will also learn about what your bosses superiors/clients want and will learn to think/make judgements with their interests in mind.

      Ensure you know where the final product is going and what it will be used for to help guide your judgement too. For example, if the final product of what you are working on components of is going to a client to help inform their new market entry into Salted Caramel Teapots, then you can strategically think backwards when pulling 5 Years of Salted Caramel Teapot industry data that analyst predictions on forecasted extreme shortages in caramel in the industry could impact future wholesale prices, retail prices, etc. That would be information worth knowing that maybe hadn’t been considered before and be worth proactively bringing up to your manager. Alternatively, information that dark chocolate prices are going down due to a glut isn’t necessarily something important for this directly if dark chocolate is not used in production.

      It is great that you have the self-awareness to be aware of this and just need to know the rules (which are fuzzy!) about what to do with the additional information that hasn’t been asked for. Always do the asked for stuff and “use your judgement” using the above guidelines that will help you be more proactive and not appearing like you need your hand held about everything (not saying you do, the goal is to move away from more explicit instructions).

    2. Not So NewReader*

      An old boss gave me a pearl I have used in different situations: If left on your own to decide on something, pick the solution that is the easiest to undo if it is wrong.

      I extended that out to just using a conservative manner of thinking. It did nothing but HELP me. I made good decisions that my bosses were content with.

      One other tidbit that has helped me with a new job/new arena is to think of all the information as a whirlwind. We handle A’s through M’s here and gosh there is so much to know.
      Pick the things that come up more frequently. When we are working with A’s we always use steps 1, 2 and 3. Nail that down. Now you have some kind of handle on the A’s.
      Okay then move to something else that comes up frequently. Let’s say you get a lot of G’s. G’s require steps 1 through 24. Now you have a handle on G’s.
      Keep going like this, take one thing and get it down then move to the next thing. Understand that the whirlwind will slow down with each of these things you nail down.

      Other things that I have done is watch my brain drain. It’s exhausting questioning yourself all day long. Help yourself by lining up resources. Don’t waste precious energy struggling to find phone numbers, passwords, codes and other things. Work on corralling these basics so you are not fighting with that also.
      Getting extra rest was one of the best investments I made. While it shortened up my home life, it made my days less long and I was more willing to handle all the info flying at me.
      Make a list at night before you leave for what you want to do tomorrow. this can help you sleep better. I know that sounds unreal. It does help.

    3. Anon for this*

      Thanks everyone. The other problem is sometimes he doesn’t want me to spend too much time on stuff (we’re understaffed) or to give him anything he has to cut down too much. In those cases I err on the side of not including things but get asked for it in the end anyway. It’s just a bit frustrating. I’m trying to be up front about “I think we may need to include this as well” and just hoping for the best.

  78. Natalie*

    As a jobseeker, what’s the best way to fire an external recruiter? When I last used this particular staffing agency, I was assigned to someone and worked with them throughout that job hunt. I had to talk to that recruiter yesterday for a somewhat related thing and it just really reinforced how much I detest him. I’d like to be assigned to a different person but obviously there’s no reason to tell this guy “hey, I hate you, can I work with someone else?”

    1. fposte*

      Can you talk to somebody else at the agency rather than dealing with him directly? I would presume this isn’t that uncommon a thing and that they should have a mechanism in place.

    2. animaniactoo*

      As politely but firmly and directly as possible. And also not to the recruiter if possible. Find the contact info for whoever is the caseload manager, and talk to them.

      “I feel like we’re not a great match, and I’d like to be moved to someone else.”

      2. Natalie*

        Caseload manager, that will do it! I’d definitely prefer not to talk to him directly if it can be avoided.

        Thanks!

        1. zora*

          You can possibly get that person by just calling the main number/reception and asking for the Caseload Manager, or “talk to someone about being assigned to a different recruiter.”

  79. Savannnah*

    I need some clarification on paying hourly workers to attend work related conferences. I am salaried and attending a conference out of state with two hourly employees. We are flying in tomorrow and the conference starts on Sunday and goes through Wednesday. Our manager instructed the two hourly employees that they can only submit clocked hours for the time they are attending the conference at a max of 8 hours a day and cannot claim hours for travel time there and back or any time on conference days that goes over 8 hours. My two co-workers are deeply unhappy about this and want to claim the hours for travel time. Our manager said they can either go with this policy, take PTO for the time instead or not go at all. Is anyone more right or wrong in this instance?

    1. Spoonie*

      When I traveled as an hourly employee, any time spent traveling/at the airport, at the event, or socializing for work purposes (happy hour with clients, etc.), was counted as work hours — and I clarified that with HR before I left. It seems a little strange to me that your employees wouldn’t be paid for travel time spent on an event that they wouldn’t be attending if it weren’t for work.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Legally, they have to be paid for travel time if it occurs during their normal work hours. If it doesn’t, they don’t have to be paid for that time.

      They do have to be paid for all time actually working though (including attending conference sessions).

      1. Savannnah*

        Thanks for your response! My manager isn’t going to pay them for travel time on Wednesday when we return, a day we normally work and cap their conference days to 8 hours so they will have to make up time Thursday and Friday- that is what they are most upset about.

    3. CAA*

      If they live in California, then travel time is compensable and they must be paid from the time they leave home until they arrive at the hotel and vice versa. They’d also be entitled to overtime for each day they work over 8 hours.

  80. Not Boss' Friend*

    My boss is really good friends with my co-worker (we are managers, boss is VP). Both myself and the other manager feel there is some serious favoritism at play due to their friendship. They vacation together, they spend weekends together shopping. Over the last year our teams have been shuffled so now the manager who is friends with Boss has the largest team meaning we lack support at other times and on other projects. There is always some lame excuse offered for this and never any room for argument or discussion.

    I have my annual review in two weeks and I want to discuss it with Boss. No one has said anything to her before and I am so over it. I am a high performer and this makes me want to leave. Any suggestions on verbiage?

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I’d restrict your discussion to your need for more support and the consequences of the lack, and not discuss anything about the friendship, shopping and so on.

      And don’t equivocate: “Because we’re understaffed by W people, we didn’t have enough support at X time and on Y and Z projects, and our overtime costs approached $OMG because Wakeen and Fergus had to stay late for three weeks to meet the deadline. What steps could we take to resolve that situation moving forward?”

  81. MissGirl*

    I applied to a job around 1 pm and received a rejection email by 4 pm. Apparently, in that timeframe they moved forward with a candidate who better suits their needs, according to the email. The funny thing was that the first line of the email read, “Thank you for your patience during our hiring process.” Those three hours sure required a lot of patience. :)

    A good reminder to never read too much into a rejection email. Sometimes all it is, is a rejection. While I jest, I do appreciate at least receiving the form email so I can let that position go.

    1. SeekingBetter*

      That’s actually happened to me, too. I applied to a job that was a great fit and received the generic rejection only 2.5 hours later in my email inbox.

  82. Bend & Snap*

    New initiative at work: open office plan with “flexible spaces” to maximize efficiency and space.

    You either get 3 people to a cube with walls that reach the top of the average person’s head in height and maybe back to the elbow in length.

    Or

    4 people to a round table

    There are also little nooks with upholstered benches where it looks like some too close for comfort conversations are supposed to take place.

    FML

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      God, I hate this bullshit.

      “We’re shifting the paradigm and thinking outside the box by encouraging informal collaboration and team-member bonding, which will increase shareholder value by leveraging the sum total of diverse core competencies-” “SHUT UP WE’RE ALL TRYING TO CONCENTRATE”

    2. Clumsy Clara*

      Oh god that sounds awful…does the person heading this initiative have no concept of personal space?

      When I worked in an office going through that transition it was spearheaded by someone incredibly nosy who wanted to know what everyone was doing all the time and it was clearly designed so she could spy on people. Of course, anyone who would be able to do anything about it had offices so the rest of us just had to suffer…

      1. Bend & Snap*

        This is rolling out worldwide at a zillion locations. I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that the person who put this plan together has an office.

    3. Spoonie*

      I really hope none of those people work with my sibling or my partner, both of whom are 6’5ish and take up…space.

      I really hate this collaborative thing. I have a “creative” job that requires concentration and focus when I’m on a roll. When I see movement out of the corner of my eye, I want to see what’s happening. This is my nightmare.

    4. Gaia*

      I feel like I’m in the minority in that I don’t actually mind these setups. Our entire company is open office with no walls. Even our CEO doesn’t have an office. For private conversations we have conference rooms (both bookable and non bookable) and nooks/pods (non bookable). For us it works pretty well. But we have a unique culture and you know a lot about it coming in. So maybe that helps?

      1. Bend & Snap*

        I would think that would help. That kind of setup works against my needs for productivity so I wouldn’t pursue a job with that type of work space.

        Thankfully we can work remotely so I’m currently doing 2 days a week at home, but even with my current full-size cube, it’s tough with things are loud or people are running around.

      2. Tau*

        Yeah, I’ve only worked in environments where no one has offices and I’ve never minded it – I’d honestly be freaked out to be put into a cubicle or private office, I think! (“But where is everyone else what’s going onnn…..”) It’s all about what you’re used to… along with copious application of headphones if necessary.

      3. zora*

        I think it depends on how well it’s planned. We have phone booths for private phone calls, but there are like 3 per 100+ people, so there is almost never one available when you need it, or you spend time running around looking for an available space.

        I’m allowed to wear headphones for music, so I can make the shared office work for my current job tasks. But when I had a much more writing-intensive job, this set up would have been impossible. I absolutely needed quiet to be able to get writing done, or my brain just can’t focus.

    5. Garland Not Andrews*

      Sounds like what they did at the Forest Service headquarters in Washington. (Yates Building) I’ve seen pictures and it is awful! They also did things like putting the kitchen/break area in with the Tech/Copier room!

    6. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Yeah we are moving to this too (and I was warned in the interview). To be fair price and space are at a premium and right now our team is spread on two different floors but for a project you may need to sit with a different team on two other floors part of the week to get something done. Im willing to give this a try.

      They are throwing in the extra bonus of hot desking and lockers for storage of papers and the tablets we are all being issued, but WFH rights will also be improved so they are more or less expecting people to work from home at least 1 if not 2 days a week because its going to be 1.4 people for every 1 desk. I don’t care how many pods or zones are available, sometimes you just need a damn desk.

      We are moving from an open office space that is at least pretty quiet for open office, but still…. let’s see how this goes.

  83. Audiophile*

    My comment got stuck in moderation, but long story short, I’m setting up a timeframe to resign from my job.

    I had called out during the week and had an interview, unfortunately, I was seen by the big boss. So at this point I feel I have no choice but to resign.

    1. MissGirl*

      Nothing wrong with interviewing. I interviewed, received an offer, turned it down, and stayed with my company another three years. My VP has done the same. Don’t resign over this.

  84. Lexie Madison*

    I have a coworker, Jane, that everyone else is extremely frustrated with. Jane is basically an amalgamation of every bad coworker story. She takes naps at her desk; makes loud, long personal phone calls in shared space on a daily basis; is consistently late or out sick (not a week goes by without one or the other happening); disappears for hours at a time, sometimes she’ll even leave when she’s covering our patron facing desk; she gives out blatantly wrong information to parrons and gets angry if anyone corrects her, or she’ll tell people to come back when someone else is at the desk instead of asking for help; she even clips her nails at her desk (apparently even her toenails, but I haven’t seen that personally).

    It’s definitely affecting morale. It’s hard to want to give 100% when it’s obvious you can get by giving like 15%. As far as any of us can tell no one has ever said anything to her about her behavior and the one time we tried to document her leaving early she threw a fit. We’re a very small department and it would be hard, but admittedly not inpossible, to have missed it if she was receiving any reprecussions. We’ve tried to talk to the supervisor we all share and nothing changed and now we just don’t know what to do, if anything. I realize it might be a just deal with it thing, but if anyone has any advice it would be appreciated!

    1. LCL*

      It’s not your job to document co workers. It’s your job to kick this to management, who isn’t managing. Ask your supervisor if you can start napping at your desk and disappearing for hours. Forget about the nailclipping, that is BEC territory.

      1. Lexie Madison*

        To clarify, it wasn’t really “documenting” in a super official sense. We have a weekly calendar where everyone writes in if they got in late or had to leave early, etc, and we just wrote that she left over an hour early one day when our supervisor wasn’t in. It’s not something we did again since it went over so badly.

        1. tigerStripes*

          Does that mean the supervisor doesn’t know how often Jane leaves early? Also, if Jane never writes this on the calendar, isn’t this some sort of hour theft?

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      Step #1: One last gasp before implementing Step #2 (see below) might be time for ALL OF YOU who have to deal with Jane’s behaviors to seriously consider showing up, en masse, in her supervisor’s office to spell out, in detail if necessary, exactly how badly Jane’s behavior is affecting your work flows, and/or your work outcomes. When the supervisor sees, and hears, the posse of complaints (remember to keep it about how the work is being affected, and how patron are not being treated respectfully, and that their expectations are not being fulfilled well, or at all).

      Step #2: If, having done a full-court press, you see zero improvement in Jane’s behavior, then IMO it’s time to take it to the supervisor’s supervisor, b/c now, in addition to the problem of Jane, you have to tell the “grandboss” that the reason this problem exists in the first place is b/c *her* direct report, your boss, is not doing her job well, and that is a performance issue s/he needs to know about.

      And, FWIW, I feel so bad for you, having to put up with this.

  85. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    I’m wondering if others could share their experience on how becoming remote/work-from-home has impacted their career.

    I’m being moved to a really crappy, dark, and cramped cubicle with no line of sight to a window. It’s because another department is expanding and needs my lovely ocean-view cubicle–my whole department (of 3 people) is affected. My coworker raised the question of whether we could become remote employees instead of working out of the new crappy space, and my boss and grandboss are open to this.

    I’m wondering if this will have a negative effect on my visibility though, and possibly impact my ability to move up. (I’d like to work for a promotion in the next year).

    Has anyone else had this experience? How does becoming a remote employee impacted your career trajectory?

    Details about my situation that are impacting my thought process:
    – my commute is negligible/awesome already (~2 miles biking along the beach) so not a consideration
    – I tend to get more work done working from home when I’ve done this occasionally (especially because this means chatty coworker is not impacting my focus)
    – I already have a hard time keeping my work-life from affecting my home life (borderline workaholic–impacts my relationship with partner, etc.) so I’m wary of making this problem worse.
    – Company I work for is large, with lots of remote employees and good remote IT infrastructure (including $100/month stipend for home office costs, etc)
    – The new crappy office space is on the same floor as senior leadership, meaning I’ll be more visible to upper mgmt than I am currently, but also that I will feel much more obligated to be visible and at my desk, if that makes sense

    What do you all think? Should I work from home, or take the crappy new cubicle? If I end up going remote, what are strategies that help you stay “visible” from afar? (Other than doing excellent work, of course!)

    1. H.C.*

      I’m inclined towards the cubicle, primarily because of the work-life balance factor and your already-strained relationship with your partner even while you’re mostly working in the office.

      However, if you choose the WFH route – one way to stay visible is commuting to office for any in-person meetings and/or scheduling regular Skype/Facetime/in-person conferences with your boss so you can keep them apprise of current projects, progress made, etc.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Ah, I should have been more clear. The “affecting-my-relationship” part hasn’t really been an issue at my current job (which I’m tepid about) but at my last job that I really loved (and worked from home frequently) it was more of an issue. It never got to the point where I’d call my relationship “strained” — just that I did hear the occasional grumbling that I paid more attention to work than to my partner (not true!).

        But yes–If I did go the WFH route I’d come into the office at least weekly for meetings in person.

    2. Annie Moose*

      Would it be possible to arrange half-and-half? Work from home a few days a week, work in the office a few days a week.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        It might be, but there’s less incentive for the company if I’m not fully remote. They’re growing and they want the cubicle!

    3. DG*

      I feel like this is a really “small” complaint to have. If an employee complained to me about the fact that they can’t see out the window in their cubicle, I’d be incredulous.

      It’s good that your managers are receptive to your issue, but I do think secret judging could/will occur. “Did you hear Rex is working from home again because he’s upset about not having a view?”

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Agreed. I know it’s a pretty small thing, and I’m totally aware that it sounds petty. I also know I’m the kind of person for whom my environment really impacts my overall happiness and lack of natural light will impact both my happiness at my job and my work output.

        I can see that I might be judged if I only worked from home sometimes (especially if I implied because it was because of my for natural light need –I can see the eyerolls now), but being a “remote employee” is a little different–tons of people I work with regularly live in different states and work from home. It’s pretty normal at my company.

    4. The IT Manager*

      Can you do a part time work from home?

      As a WFHer, I do think there’s benefits to face time and coffee cooler interactions.

      I’d also suggest (if possible) designated office that you close the door at the end of the day and walk away from to help with that work-life balance. (although balance has never been a problem for me).

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        I do have a space that I’d set up as a designated office. And I’d be in the office at least once-a-week for meetings. But the appeal from the company for me to go remote is that they’d get the cubicle back, so I wouldn’t have a workspace while I was at the office.

    5. Red Reader*

      Since I went fully remote in July 2014, I’ve been promoted twice (including once into management), received raises totaling just over 40%, and have been selected by both boss and grandboss to represent our department at the organizational level for things like process improvement events.

  86. Clumsy Clara*

    Any tips for helping someone focus when there’s a million things going on?

    I am overloaded and sometimes get really overwhelmed and in my overwhelmed-ness can’t focus enough to actually get work done most effectively. I start tasks and then remember something I’ve forgotten (like to follow up on an email, etc.) and then don’t make it back to the original tasks sometimes for hours. Sometimes I feel so overwhelmed and anxious I don’t know where to start and go read AMA or check my email because I just need a few minutes to decompress…but then the work just keeps piling up and the cycle starts all over again. Help please!

    1. fposte*

      You need to make your own structure. A to-do list, a work schedule, a workflow tool. There are lots of discussions here about specific tools and protocols and I’ll let you look for those, but what I’d advise is within them to set goals for the day, the week, and the month, and ending each day by setting goals for the next. Then make sure your tool is visible and available. It’s the transitions that kill you, so you need a reminder of what you’ll do next.

      1. Clumsy Clara*

        I’ve struggled to find an organizational tool that works for me because I find keeping it up to date to a degree that is actually helpful is a huge timesuck…

    2. writelhd*

      The nature of my job is this. I serve clients but am also a manager with a specific scope of responsibility within the company and a number of assigned, or else self-chosen big picture projects that work toward my scope. It’s always been this but has become more and more so over time and it’s made me mad at myself. There was a post here lately to an article talking about how the pursuit of perfect time management is an illusion because then you have more time for more tasks and don’t feel any more caught up…so with that in mind, I still have felt better implementing some systems that work: here’s what I do to manage my crazy:

      -every day I write a to-do list by hand on a special note pad just for that. I just braindump all small and large things that need doing. Sometimes I do it at the end of the day to prep for the next day. Many are copied from the previous days that I didn’t get to. I check things off when they’re done. Somehow the fact that it’s by hand rather than computer improves my focus on it. I have yet to make a to-do list where I’ve checked everything I wrote for myself for the day off, but the act of getting through 2/3rds of it provides a motivating satisfaction. And it does help me not lose track of things.

      -I have a whiteboard that categories bigger picture things. When an idea or an thing comes up that relates to my big picture projects but I can’t get to it because I have to respond to X client ASAP, I throw it on the whiteboard in the right category so I don’t lose it. I erase it when I dealt with it. my whiteboard categories include: upcoming projects for next two weeks, clients on my radar where anytime I need to do something for a client I write it down, big picture ideas to not forget, and two smaller lists of specific customer tasks I have to do for certain types of customers at regular intervals.

      -I’ve noticed that I get into moods where I’m better at certain types of tasks, at certain times. For example, I often do well with analytical work early in the day when I’m fresh and focused, but get kinda frazzled by about 2, when I find I do better just attending to little small things like replying to emails. So I structure my days accordingly.

      -When I feel super frazzled I go take walks around the parking lot to focus.

      -I keep a spreadsheet client interactions and take time to update my reports on various things about the interaction. This would be busywork to some but to me it helps me feel accomplished because I’m documenting general progress I make with clients and I can see it, and helps me feel like I’m keeping track of any client needs that might be out there.

      -I use all these systems, but try to keep myself from being overly rigid with them–their purpose is to motivate me and keep me organized, not make me a slave to them. So I let myself off the hook when I get too busy to use them religiously.

    3. NW Mossy*

      One thing that really helps me is to have a designated place where I quickly (less than 15 seconds) jot down the to-do as it crosses my mind and (this next part is key) ignore it and return to the thing I was doing. Then, after I complete a task, I return to my list of to-dos to pick the next item to work on.

      I’m one of those people who manages their inbox such that the only items that appear there are things that need action, so my tactic to avoid forgetting a brainwave is to create a task in Outlook with just enough detail to jog my memory (e.g., “Email Fergus re: Client X”). I take my laptop to all my meetings, so if someone gives me a deliverable, I note the task as we’re talking so it’s there when I get back to my desk.

    4. Alexandra*

      I find that it helps to get yourself as organised as possible in one big advanced burst. Sit down with a coffee one weekend and make a tonne of to-do lists with literally everything you know about on there. First list, things that should be done daily. Second, things that should be done every week. Third, things that should be done every month. Fourth, things that happen throughout the year. Since I don’t know your job, here’s a cleaning chart that illustrates what I mean: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8a/f4/c5/8af4c545a9fe9bce1c4b884f39eb7a19.jpg.

      This only covers regular duties, but that alone should be a big help. Burned out on daily tasks? Time to do one or two of the weekly jobs and get back to it. Finished work for the week and need something else to do? Move to your monthly list. Know you have a big yearly event in two weeks? Make a point of doing half an hour’s prep work a day in the lead up.

      For irregular events that come up out of nowhere, your first step should be to sit down and pull out a pen and paper. I know it always feels like you should be active, but more haste and less speed is your friend! What’s the outcome you need? How’re you going to get there? What small steps do you need to achieve? Plan, then act.

    5. Victoria, Please*

      I have TOOOOOONS of ideas because I work with faculty on this kind of thing, but I don’t really want to put it all down here — I will just say: Please don’t feel like this is some kind of personal failing, or that you are “stupid” or “unprofessional” or whatever. Managing time wisely, sticking with tasks, staying organized, prioritizing important-but-not-urgent over urgent-but-not-important…are legitimately difficult mental exercises. There are lots of tools and books and strategies for a reason.

      Here’s an email I once sent to all our new faculty: People sometimes tell me, “I don’t need to learn about time management, I just need to discipline myself to do what I already know I should do.” If you were just a *better person*, being productive and efficient would be easy, right? Well, it’s only easy to say, not to do. (Kind of like “eat less, move more,” or “buy low, sell high.”) If you feel that it should be easy to constantly stay on task, make good decisions, and focus your efforts on high priorities instead of getting sidetracked – and you feel weak or foolish because it’s NOT EASY – then stop “should-ing” all over yourself and set up some systems and tactics to help. See the next few weeks for ideas.

    6. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Can group things by project or client etc?

      I have a few systems but keep them simple-

      Every day write down key tasks in key projects using the Windows Sticky-Note function so its always on my desktop. I erase/add as needed throughout the day. End of every day I change the date at the top.

      I also have a Word doc Work in Progress where I keep everything else longer term that needs to be done – e.g. “get feedback at end of X project” where as the day to day of getting X project done is on the Sticky Notes. I also keep all admin/time management and allocation/key questions to ask my manager at 1-2-1s/random stuff I need to address some point in the future. I check in on this every week and cross check against the Sticky Notes. Also, I just draw a line through things and make a new list (essentially roll the list over) every month. That way at review time I have an inkling of what I was doing the prior few months.

      When I feel bogged down or unmotivated I will set a time limit. Yesterday I had some random tasks to do to get something out but it was all a hassle I had been putting off. I gave myself 2 hours to get it done and I made it even though I REALLY wanted to do anything but that.

      I take a long walk at lunch to get out of the office and away from the crazy. I also get in early just to have quiet time to plan the day/get started.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I have an area next to my desk where I can put what I am working on when I get interrupted. I can then put the interruption paper work on my desk, finish that and turn back to my designated area to recall what I was working on when the wheels fell off. That designated area has to be empty when I go home, my own rule that I made up.

      I have gotten more diligent about writing notes to myself. If I am interrupted, I am more apt to now tell the person, “just a sec, let me write this down”. I make a note when there is nothing else that will trigger my memory to do something. If I have paperwork in that designated area, I probably do not need an additional note.

  87. Pineapple Incident*

    I just started a new job this week and I.LOVE.IT.HERE.

    My old job paid way less than is necessary to live in the area I live in, all the staff (myself included) had a horrendous relationship with our director, and my department was constantly being handed down new responsibilities from TPTB with no additional resources. I just started on Monday in this office, where I’m expected basically to just learn the job for a few months while I take classes on the various systems I need access to/train/etc. We’re picking strategic working groups next week on different topics to aid in completion of the goals on the office’s strategic plan for the next three years, and my department’s leader is VERY into professional development- so much so that it’s part of my orientation to start thinking about the areas outside of my specific duties that I want to improve on/grow in/learn. And everyone is SO.FREAKIN.NICE.

    My commute doubled to take this job, but so did my pay, and so far I am blown away- this was a great decision and I’m so thankful that AAM helped me get here.

    1. Yeah, right*

      Good for you. I hope it keeps getting better and you still love it in the years to come. Jobs like that are hard to find, so you are very lucky.

  88. JobSeeker017*

    Meeting with volunteer coordinator

    I am scheduled to meet with a volunteer coordinator with a local chapter of a national health nonprofit. She and I spoke briefly, then she emailed me some background information about a pair of upcoming events the org is hosting.

    My question is how focused on my own skills expansion can I be during our meeting?

    I would like to do some writing and social media posting in addition to the standard event planning and administrative assistance.

    Any suggestions on how broach this without causing hardship for the volunteer coordinator?

    Thanks!

    1. Leatherwings*

      I’d be pretty cautious about proactively bringing it up. A place with a volunteer coordinator is going to have pretty set processes in dealing with volunteers. It’s totally possible they’ll be thrilled about you offering to do all this, but it’s also possible that their programs don’t really allow for this kind of work (training you, getting you access to the social media accounts, overseeing and approving what you put up, etc. is a lot. Depending on how much work you’re doing, it’s almost as much as managing a regular employee.

      So go in with an open mind about what they need/want from you and their capacity to manage. You can certainly bring a list and see what’s possible, but be prepared to hear that they can’t handle this much work from a single volunteer.

  89. Brogrammer*

    Asking for a friend, I swear: how would you handle applying for jobs when you’d been fired from your previous job for a reason that’s illegal where you are now, but was legal where you were when you got fired? For example, you get fired from your job in Texas for being one (or more) of the letters in LGBT. Then you move to California where it’s illegal to fire someone for that reason. How do you explain your situation to a prospective hiring manager without oversharing?

    1. Sled dog mama*

      That’s a seriously sticky situation. I’d tell your friend to wait until the employer brings it up and say something like “I was let go for a reason that would be illegal in this state” or “I was let go for being a member of class, which is protected here but was not there, which is one reason I’m excited about XYZ with you.”

      2. Pineapple Incident*

        Fabulous way to put this- I love the second one. Implies there was wrongdoing in (other state) to a point that someone will get the point and move on, without taking the focus away from what you want it on during your interview.

  90. BBBizAnalyst*

    Anxiously awaiting bonuses and news on raises. Our firm beat expectations so I’m hoping I receive good news in a few weeks. My performance review/rating went exceedingly well so I’ll be mildly (Okay really) disappointed if I don’t hit the top of my range.

  91. Sibley*

    Just venting…

    I was brought in as lead on a high profile, high impact, high judgement project part way through (original lead was overwhelmed with other stuff). So, now, I’m dealing with an unexpected deadline, work done half-heartedly and late, and the person who did it is talking to everyone about stupid stuff when I need her to explain what the hell is going on so I can fix it! Just frustrated, and I will be giving accurate feedback on the eval.

    1. JobSeeker017*

      Sibley, you have my sympathies for the unfair and frustrating situation you’re in.

      Please take care of yourself and take time to decompress over the weekend.

      1. Sibley*

        Thanks. It wasn’t fun, but we got it good enough. Still have a bit to finish on Monday. And I will be sitting down with the staff member and giving her some feedback. She messed up, and I have responsibility for some training. Mgmt is aware of the situation, so I’m smelling like roses because I saved the day.

        Then I slept for about 11 hours :)

  92. today's wallflower*

    Any thoughts on how to improve on speaking in small groups/at meetings? I end up getting/coming across as nervous which leads me to repeat myself or trail off. I get nervous speaking (I’m actually better at public speaking because I’m able to rehearse first) and I find it hard to take in the information and contribute something meaningful in the moment, let alone articulate it well. Both of these frustrate me and I fear I don’t come across as well as I could as a result.

    1. NaoNao*

      First, make a plan for completing your thoughts. So, at the end of a paragraph, you could say “What questions do you have for me?” or “That’s it. Any questions.”

      If people ask you questions and you get flustered, keep a pen and paper nearby, and jot down the questions. “I’m not sure about the answer for that, but I’ll get back to you as soon as I can.”

      Write down your plan/agenda first, print it out, and refer to it at the meeting. “Okay, thanks Jane. Great point. Alright, moving onto our next item here….”

      Give yourself one or two talking points and stick to those.

      Also, one last thing: as a “creative” the “Don Draper” to my larger team’s “Roger Sterling” and “clients” I rarely have to say anything at meetings. Occasionally someone will ask me a question and then *answer it themselves* or someone else will jump in and answer it (usually very long winded-ly) for me! It’s surprising how little one actually has to say. Most people *lurve* the sound of their own voice going on about business-stuff. So maybe just get through your prepared stuff and “open the floor”. Then zip it with a beatific smile and some sage nods. “Sounds great, Rog!” Before you know it, the meeting is over ;)

      1. today's wallflower*

        Thank you. I like the idea of trying to stick to the talking points and having an ending phrase in mind to tack in rather than fumbling around or trailing off.

        1. writelhd*

          At meetings I have led I have sometimes jokingly imagined to myself that I would end them with “and that’s all I have to say about tha-at.”

          Seriously though, I also think this is something you just get more comfortable with with practice. But until then, just prepare your ideas, have an outline if you need to.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Watch how others are doing and see where you can do similar things.

      Sometimes I will write down keywords while one person is speaking and when my turn comes I can work off a mini-list of several points.

      Remember that silence and nodding, used strategically, can look very intelligent. You don’t always have to talk. I say this because it sounds like you feel you must speak up even if you don’t have any major contribution. That’s is not true, you do not HAVE to talk.

      Other ways you can speak up is by asking a well-framed question. “Do we know that X will be in on time so we can do Y?” There, you’re done. You can stop talking.

      I could be mistaken but I think that you maybe trying too hard to contribute. There maybe times where you do not have to make an immediate decision. My suggestion is to refocus on just listening, make sure you are following what they are saying. I think you are distracting yourself too much by worrying about what to say and when to say it. If you are comfortably listening it should be easier to chime in.

  93. Emotionally Neutral Grad*

    I have a couple of questions for commenters, both of which seek opinions and the first of which is a much shorter read. They are:

    1. My mother used to tell me that male bosses tend to give women fairer treatment compared to men when their wives work outside the home and/or when they have daughters. The logic here is that they provide the leadership they would want their wives and daughters to have. Do your own professional experiences support that idea?

    2. This one springs from #1. I worry about my particular office as a place where women, particularly feminists or people with modern ideas about equality, can thrive because of the preponderance of “traditional” ideas. I’ve never experienced unfair or poor treatment because of my gender, but my mother’s words ring in the back of my head when I see the number of men with wives who do not work outside the home and how many of them only have sons.
    My primary concern is whether the culture of this particular male-dominated office might reflect their ideas and make them unconsciously more likely to hold ideas about different genders in the workplace, income inequality, etc. that are different from mine. I once walked by a colleague’s computer and noticed a video on with a title making fun of a woman with particular political views. On a separate occasion I was met with anger (raised voice and all) when I told a male coworker that using a male name and pronouns for a transwoman was misgendering her, and another coworker agreed with him. The angry coworker later apologized, but the whole incident made me uncomfortable. FWIW, I have a female boss who manages some of the more “traditional” men and has no problem with them subverting her authority. I just worry that her experience is the exception rather than the rule.
    As a woman, and one who holds ideas about equality that some people don’t like, am I likely to perform well and advance in this environment? My mother had a horrible experience with coworkers with similar views. It ended with her being subject to regular verbal abuse by the boss and becoming subordinate to the boss’s friend, who ran the organization into the red after she achieved consistently high profits. Is my mother’s experience excessively affecting my perspective?

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      1. No. Not as a general rule.

      2. Her experience is the exception rather than the rule, I think, but the fundamental issue you’re running into is that these people are fundamentally oriented to society and other people in a hierarchical, authoritarian way, and you’re not. It’s really hard to bridge that gap, as we can all see. My preferred option is asking questions, rather than making statements, but it’s not a magic bullet – “Christine has asked us to refer to her by that name and using “she.” Why are you second-guessing her?”

    2. bb-great*

      The best predictor of how you’ll be treated as a woman in your office is…how you and other women are treated in the office. It’s fruitless (and honestly probably detrimental to you) to try and divine how someone might affect your career based on whether they have sons or not. Pay attention to how you and other women are treated. Everything else is just noise.

      1. emma*

        +1! My boss’s wife stays at home with his 3 sons. But he’s an excellent boss, and is really great about looking out for my interest, and I’m a woman. I’d pay more attention to what actually happens instead of this rule.

    3. fposte*

      #1. Maybe, but I wouldn’t bother extrapolating from it. There is plenty of evidence in most workplaces about how people deal with their colleagues in different categories, and since that’s what you’re trying to judge, no need to go beyond that to make assessments.

      #2. See 1: I would worry less about the stay-at-home spouses and more about what people do in the office. I think it’s crystal-clear that many of them think differently than you. The question is whether they think differently in a way that means your viewpoint and/or gender will keep you from advancing, which isn’t always tied to unanimity of thought. And I do think the answer to your last question is “Yes”–you are allowing your mother’s single data point to overinfluence you. That doesn’t mean it’s insignificant or a huge outlier, just that if you keep looking for repetitions of that pattern that’s going to color your work life.

      I would see if your boss is up for a candid discussion on this topic. “I’m interested in a future here at Teapots Daily, but sometimes I wonder about cultural fit and the predominance of men here, and whether that would make advancement more challenging for me.”

      1. Newby*

        #2. Exactly. Since Emotionally Neutral Grad already works there, it is pointless to guess at how she will be treated based on whether she works with men whose wives stay home or not. She can see how she is treated and how other women in the office are treated. If she feels she is being penalized for being a woman in the workplace, the problem isn’t that her boss’s wife doesn’t work. The problem would be that she works for a jerk. That said, if the environment makes her uncomfortable, she could look into getting a job that is a better fit for her culturally.

    4. orchidsandtea*

      1. No, this has not been my experience. The one with a stay-at-home wife and two sons was kind, flexible, respectful, and fairly unpushy. The twice-divorced one with a bunch of daughters talked a lot about how he wasn’t sexist but would always ask an already-busy woman to make copies rather than an idly-chatting man. He got fired for predatorial behavior towards multiple junior employees. The current grandboss is an unmarried-but-partnered younger man with no children, and on the one hand he’s not explicitly sexist, and on the other hand he’s convinced maternity leave is a vacation.

      It helps when someone has experience with women as people in many types of scenarios, but there’s no easy shorthand that will let you see into their thought processes. You just kind of have to watch.

      2. Your mother’s experience sounds very hard, and I’m sorry. It must have been difficult. For your experience, I’d set aside the stay-at-home wife with just sons thing, because I know many feminists whose wives stay at home and who have sons. But the misgendering, making fun of women, etc. is a problem — and you don’t have to put up with it. Those are professional issues and your boss should shut it down. It’s really encouraging that they respect her.

    5. LCL*

      1. Their may be studies about that. But as always when dealing with people, it’s not that simple. Whether or not the boss has women family members in the workforce is a tiny factor influencing them, one of many.

      2. You may be overthinking this, a little. Instead of trying to figure out someone’s philosophy of discrimination, stick to actions. Misgendering someone deliberately is a mean thing to do. I misgendered someone at work once by accident and she was OK with it, because I apologized and she told me she realized I had made a mistake and wasn’t trying to be a jerk.
      Looking at sexist memes is a stupid thing to do. It shouldn’t be OK at work.

      TL:DR None of us can know what’s in someone’s mind and heart. Judge them by their words and actions. Managers who think they aren’t sexist can be horrible to other works for sexist reasons. Call out the behavior when it happens.

    6. Temperance*

      1.) I have absolutely seen men who have more traditional home lives treat women differently, but it’s not a widespread rule. I did meet some men in law school who made it known that they didn’t want their wives to work, and it made us think less of them as people, but also showed how they felt about us, too. It wasn’t great. FWIW, I have friends who stay at home, and their husbands are normal, non-sexist dudes.

      2.) That would bother me, too.

      1. bridget*

        Yeah, just because something may be true in the general population doesn’t mean you can use it to evaluate any specific person. I have anecdata going both ways. In my experience, geography/culture have mattered more than home life. When I lived in a conservative state, men were kind of weird about me in the workplace regardless of their family situation, and now that I live in a liberal metro area, I have not had one ounce of weirdness from anyone.

        I will say that when I lived in a conservative state, I knew a handful of men who were extra weird about it – like they would have personal rules that they wouldn’t be in a room with me alone with a door closed (even if there were glass walls, or we were doing something totally work-related like having a conference call), or wouldn’t go to lunch with just me. Those extra-weird ones had very traditional home lives, but as that was such a common occurrence in my conservative state it’s hard for me to say it was causation rather than correlation.

        1. Gaia*

          Ugh. I lived in a super conservative state for a few years and during that time I had a male coworker who, when caught in a room alone with me, would flatten himself against the furthest wall to avoid being “inappropriately close” to a woman he was alone with but wasn’t married to. As if the moment we were alone I was going to be overcome and start grinding up against him.

          It still pisses me off to think about.

    7. Maya Elena*

      Hmm – I’d be careful not to condition yourself to see everything adversarially, and seeing conflict or mistreatment where there is none.

      If you don’t feel discriminated against, and neither do other women at your office, assume your coworkers are adults who manage to keep their politics, such as they have (whose nuances you don’t know), out of the office.

      Also, transgender topics became a widely covered issue only in the last few years, and as such probably generate way more discomofort for more people than garden variety feminism.

    8. Observer*

      What the others have said. Also, I’ll point out that the misgendering has nothing to do with it. That doesn’t mean you have to be ok with it, but it does mean that you need to look at that as a separate issue – and one that you would have to look at whether the is otherwise feminist or not.

    9. Biff*

      In my experience, #1 can be true. It’s much more likely for a man to think well of women when he has successful daughters or a spouse. My father is like this. Every six months or so, I get the “admin” call. It goes something like this. “Well Biff, I lost my admin again. She went new places. I’m so bummed. She was such a good admin, but she was too smart and I had to promote her/send her back to school/tell her to apply to an exciting job elsewhere. I will never find a good admin again. It’s the end of the world.” About three weeks later I get a chatty call about how great his new admin is. But she’s ALWAYS too smart for the job. She’s always a ‘good candidate for workplace training.’ He’s only ever had two admins who didn’t follow this pattern. One was a very young guy who was in school for some very unrelated field, and the other was … autistic? I remember it bothered him very much to not have opportunities/training for his ‘special’ admin. I absolutely think that this trait of his is because he’s always liked smart women, and has always had very smart, very capable women in his life. Without those influences, I’m positive he’d still have shades of frattitude going on.

      I think the real question to ask is, how do I find people who want to promote/develop women regardless of the environment? How do I find Biff’s Dad? I frankly don’t have a set algorithm for that, but here are some things you could ask in interviews that would definitely help:

      1. “Can you tell me about some successful women in your organization, and what opportunities they were given to develop into more senior roles?” My dad would pull out a friggin’ MAP for you. He’d be really happy to answer this question with specific details. Frankly, this is the sort of question that would be an interview winner with him, if you were a good basic fit for the job he had open.

      2. I’d follow that up with “Can you tell me about how they became eligible for those opportunities?” I think someone could give you an answer that looks good, but is garbage. What you want to find out is if this woman was the Rockstar of the Ages, She Who Can Singlehandedly Slay All Dragons, or if these were women who were simply owning their role, and showing capacity for more. If the organization can only showcase what has happened to RotA,SWCSSD, then they don’t promote women as a rule, they just have a very visible exception.

      3. “Can you tell me about your top 2 or 3 performers, and what sorts of traits you see in them that you look for in new hires?” I think if someone launches into high praise for Dwight, Earl, and Andy, then you might have a solid clue that regardless of what they just said about women in thier organization, women aren’t top performers in their eyes. But keep in mind, in smaller organizations, or organizations with heavy gender skew, this might not be a revealing question at all.

      4. “Can you tell me about your own work-life balance?” What I think you’d want to hear is that they basically view all employees as having a life. Something to the tune of “I need you here, we plan around you being here, but if your dog/kid/parent needs you right this second, then they do. We expect you to be an adult and juggle all the things, or tell us that you need help to juggle all the things.” I think a BAD answer would be “Well, we understand mothers need more flexibility.” Then you’ve been othered, from the get go. You are a mother first, and a coworker second. Not ideal for career development.

      As for your second set of questions… I think your approach here might be causing you trouble. Humor is humor and it doesn’t necessarily follow that someone who watches a Youtube video mocking a concept definitely hold that concept in contempt. There is humor in a concept taken to absurd levels. In the right mood, I find videos mocking stereotypes to which I conform hilarious. I’d tell you to watch his behavior in the lunchroom towards you and other female coworkers. Is he unfailingly polite? Does he let you talk in meetings? Does he give you credit when credit is due? Let his actions speak for him, not his humor.

      Also, as for your coworker misgendering a transwoman — unless she was standing right there, I think that it would be better to tell him via email, not embarrass him in front of the gang. Something like “When we were speaking about Caitlyn Jenner today, you called her a “he” and you referred to her as “Bruce.” I realize that since she is a public figure who gained fame as a male athlete, it’s really easy to think of her as Bruce Jenner still, but it’s respectful to refer to her as a she, and as “Caitlyn.” Think of “Bruce” as her embarrassing baby nickname.”

      Calling people out in public might feel good, but it’s not very professional unless they’ve not gotten the clue from several other, less public corrections. I feel like going straight to the antagonistic, in-your-face correction probably comes across as looking for trouble.

      Performance is performance. Show up on time, do you work with time to spare, and do it right the first time. Be professional with your coworkers and don’t bring in the foul-smelling lunch. Look decent. If you work for a company that holds women to a higher standard and you can’t get raises or promotions despite good performance, move on. Make sure that the only thing your boss can say when asked for a reference is that you did all your work well and caused no trouble.

      2. Tau*

        Thank you so much for those suggested interview questions. I plan to start job-hunting in the next few months, and have been wracking my brains for ways to probe whether an environment might be sexist. (I’m in a very male-dominated industry; I worry.) This gives me a great place to start.

    10. Student*

      The only way we make progress towards more men being accepting that women are competent equals in the workforce is by giving individual men the benefit of the doubt.

      But, if you won’t give them the benefit of the doubt individually, then you’ll only work for people who’ve proven they are already on our side on this issue; you limit your career options significantly, while never changing anyone’s mind about what women are capable of.

      Once a boss starts giving you signals that he’s going to hold you back from your career goals (over gender or anything else) then jump ship. You don’t need proof, just a gut feeling; you can get that feeling as soon as you interview or as late as after several years of incident-free work. Are you writing because your gut says you’re not treated equally to your co-workers, or are you writing because of your mother’s advice?

      On your actual question, #1 is true on a broad scale based on research. It’s not a rule, though, it’s a probability. There’s a huge range of individual variability, so it’s not a useful predictor you can use to decide where you want to work.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      There was a study that came out a little while ago, that indicated a tendency for male bosses with daughters to be more aware/empathetic to women in the workplace.

      Honestly, I think it is unfair to men to assess them on the basis of the number of females they have at home. The guy could be gay and have three sons. But he grew up with six sisters, only we would probably not know that part. None of this has a lot of bearing on the person they choose to be. I have met men who are outstanding at role modeling professional behavior at all times. And I have met some others that were real jerks. I think that they chose their path. I would say the same of women.

      I am sorry about what happened to your mom. I think you have many valid points here. But there’s a lot of anger coming off your post, I think you know that, though. And above all else people will react to anger quicker than anything else. They won’t see the context/subject, all they will see is the anger and think they must defend themselves. Only later will they realize what the topic was. Additionally, angry people are apt to make more mistakes because their concentration is diluted by other things. In other cases people who grew up in or are currently in an abuse situation will have a strong negative pull back from an angry outburst. It does not matter the reason, they are reacting to the anger alone. Anger is not going to help a person keep a job.

      It’s fine to be angry but it is how we use our anger that matters.

      The stories our parents tell do color our perspective. And it can take a while to see the changes that have happened since their story happened. FWIW, your mother could have and probably should have left the job much sooner. It sounds pretty hopeless. If you do end up in a workplace that is not a good match for you, you can find something else. You are not trapped. I am wondering if your anger is really fear of being trapped. Decide to take good care of you under any circumstances.

  94. Emmalee*

    Any advice on how to deal with a supervisor who constantly leaves the office mid day to grocery shop, get her car worked on, meet with the plumber, go to Hobby Lobby for a DIY art project she wants to try at home, etc. She also calls in sick frequently – already 4 times in 2017 (not consecutive days – about once a week). It’s difficult to stay motivated when I feel like I’m pulling so much more weight than she is. I wouldn’t mind as much if she held her employees to similar standards as herself, but she doesn’t. She is overly rigid with her employees. I’m an hourly employee (she is salaried), and she nickles and dimes my vacation away any time I have to leave (which is very infrequently). I’ve been at my job for a year and a half. I’ve never taken a sick day, and have asked to leave <1 hour early 2 times, for doctor's and dentist appointments. Both times, she told me to "make sure I work over my lunch break" to make up for the time, or otherwise use vacation time. Other times, she has asked me to work over lunch when other employees have called in sick to cover the phones (I am not a receptionist, by the way – we do not have a receptionist, so we all cover the phones). In one case, I asked to leave 1 hour early on a Friday when it was dead, because I had already worked 2 hours of overtime in covering the phones over my lunch earlier in the week. Now, I do not work at a stressful or overly-busy job where this would be ANY sort of problem – yet, she declined my request because she 'didn't want to answer any calls' (side note: the phone had rang once in a 3 hour period that afternoon). Again, I realize her requests for me to cover the phones over lunches when need be, and take vacation time for appointments are not unreasonable. However, it's frustrating to see her constantly taking advantage of being a salaried employee by leaving early herself, stepping out for several hours a day, and calling in sick whenever she knows our boss will not be in (he's out of the office frequently). She does not use vacation time for any of this. I just find her behavioral very hypocritical. Also, I might add that we do not have a poor working relationship – she often compliments my work, and I just recently received a considerable raise (15%). I enjoy my work very much, but her behavior is really starting to affect me in a negative way.

    1. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      Are you hourly? That could be why she’s not allowing you to take time off if you’ve already worked overtime on other days. As for the problems with her leaving the office constantly, I can understand your frustration. My old boss was like that, but she never gave us the same flexibility even though we were all exempt.

    2. Little Miss Cranky Pants*

      Salaried/exempt means you get paid for getting the work done, not the hours you’re in the office. Stop tracking her time in/out. It’s not your business unless it affects your productivity or ability to get work done.

      You’re hourly; you get paid for the hours you work. Drop any interest in her schedule, and you’ll feel better.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, once you start down this road it’s hard to get off it. If you want to keep the job you will need to abandon this because it will kill the job for you.

        Personally, I would start looking around at jobs. You are in a good spot where you don’t have to leave the job. You can take your time and be a little choosy.

        Yeah, I agree, your boss is not impressive. But my agreement with you does not help you that much.

  95. Anonnonon*

    My work place has had five employees resign in as many months, all citing work/life balance. We’re a pretty small org., so this has a huge impact on teams. I’m not sure how to react; I feel like I have pretty good work/life balance — does that mean I’m not working hard enough? Or missing the memo from leadership that I should be putting in more hours? Hmmm.

    1. Emmalee*

      It depends on many factors. Did the employees that quit hold similar positions to you? If you were in different positions, they may have just happened to have a much heavier workloads. Do you feel like you are getting your own work completed during normal work hours without having to work overtime? Is if office culture that you’re expected to work overtime? Or, if you are working overtime, it’s possible that your coworkers had different priorities than you – 60 hour weeks, for instance, may have not been a big deal to you, but may have had a big impact on someone else.

    2. De Minimis*

      Do they have different supervisors or are on different teams? I work for a smallish org and I’ve found wide variations in work/life balance here depending on your supervisor and their work habits. Unfortunately, I work for one who is generally at work at least 10-12 hours a day [sometimes longer] and doesn’t take breaks for lunch. I know other people that do follow the traditional 8:30 – 5: 30 schedule.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      How was your previous job?
      I had a similar thing with one job. Everyone was complaining about this and that. I had no issue. My previous job was MISERABLE. I was very happy to be in my new place.

  96. Worker anonymous*

    I manage a department, and everyone is doing exciting work. Even though I spend a lot of time with my staff, it is unclear whether anyone, and in particular my boss, gives me any credit for their work. He takes a loose approach to hierarchies when it suits him but that is another issue. I am running into the issue that often I will work with someone then when we are at a larger meeting they will say something like “I thought of this idea and did this” and I’m like, no, I actually suggested it, and they explored it and did the work (which is their job!) but the point is that it was a team effort, we’ve had many conversations etc. Sometimes they are even things they disagreed on but I thought we should pursue becasue of what I know organizationally and then they present it as their own idea. Because my boss takes such a loose approach I am never sure if he gets that actually I have taken hours and hours working with people. Another part of this is that I hate the part of my job that is only mine, it’s a bureaucratic job that I’m good at but have come to hate, so it would mean a lot to me to be appreciated for this other work that is also part of my job as manager but I don’t think it is. I also don’t want to be “no, that was my idea” whenever my team talks, any idea how to convey my part in this? I really think one of my strengths is in directing others and we end up with vastly improved projects because of my input.

    1. Not A Morning Person*

      It sounds like you are doing what a manager is supposed to do, direct and coach your team. Maybe you just need to have a conversation with your manager about what you do. Not in a “You need to know this!” But a softer, “Let me share with you how I’ve been coaching/managing the team to see if you agree with how I’m managing. I coached Wakeen on that last project that got approval for a new teapot design. He was going in a different direction, but based on my experience and discussions with the planning team, I thought the design needed to be more Mid-Century. We met several times to review the designs and with my guidance I’m pleased that the Teapot Powers That Be approved it. With Wakeena, I took a different approach. She was going in a completely different direction on the Chocolate vs. Caramel customer research. I pulled her in to discuss how the research was progressing and the results she was getting and helped her to see where she was getting off track. I have been happy with the way the team has blossomed with this kind of mentoring and wondered if you have other ideas on managing this team.”
      I don’t know if this will help, but it can at least bring your managing role to the attention of your manager. Good luck!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      What happens at evaluation time? If you don’t know I would start talking to the boss about that now.

      Meanwhile, keep written track of the ideas that are yours and keep track of how you have developed your team.

  97. Chalupa Batman*

    I don’t come to open threads too often, but I am excited to say DH has extracted himself from his insane pseudo religious nightmare job. I’ve mentioned before that they regularly use religion as a hammer, insist that they don’t need proper business procedures because “God is in charge,” claim demons are the cause of any dissent in the ranks (effectively discrediting anyone who disagrees because they’re “possessed”), and he suspects but can’t prove fraud. We love Jesus, but they’re all insane. He tried to quit before and was promised things would change. We all know how that goes. This time he handled the pushback beautifully, and can finally move on.

    1. fposte*

      Whoa. (And when I quickly skimmed this the first time I thought the hammer was literal and they were expecting God to handle construction.) Glad he’s moved on.

  98. Lissa*

    Anyone ever had to deal with an employee/coworker who would call out for celebrity deaths? Opinions on this? my thinking is that while I try not to judge people for what hits them hard emotionally, I would probably not admit the real reason and just lie and say “food poisoning” or something….

    1. De Minimis*

      Wow, really? Just say you have a cold…

      At first I thought you meant the coworker was advocating for the death of celebrities.

        1. Lissa*

          Ha, sorry! I meant “call out sick”, somehow had a word go missing in there. Glad the rest of my point made it somewhat coherent or this thread would’ve gone differently…

    2. Emmalee*

      I have not dealt with that, but I find it bizarre. I don’t think anyone can reasonably cite that as a reason for calling out. After all, celebrities are complete strangers to most of us (unless your coworker has some celebrity status and was friends with Prince, Mary Tyler Moore, etc. – but I’m going t safely assume he/she was not. :)). It would be one thing being upset by the news, but a whole other to claim that the news influences you so much that you are unable to work.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      It’s hugely unprofessional. Just say you’re sick. But it’s not healthy to be that affected by celebrity deaths anyway, so… there are bigger issues at play.

      1. Lissa*

        Yeah, that was my feeling too but I can be insensitive so wanted some calibration from other people. This isn’t about me but my best friend has a coworker who has called out 2 or 3 times in the last couple years for celebrity deaths, all well within her allotted sick time so…OK I guess…. but it just seems so unprofessional to me, at least to publicly admit it…it sort of falls in the “polite social lie” category to me.

        Then again she also would watch emotional videos about victims of tragedies on her phone at work and work herself and another coworker up to tears. This has apparently stopped so I guess somebody told her to cut it out…

        1. animaniactoo*

          Okay, let’s say that if I or anyone else I know ever did this, I would expect it to be a you-get-one-in-a-lifetime event and it would have to be someone that I went quite a bit beyond fangirl stage for.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            I can understand this if someone really meant a lot to the person for various reasons. For me, it would be Stephen King. Sorry, but I would not be able to hold it together at work and I don’t really care what anyone else thinks about that. I’d just call in sick and not say why.

    5. Brogrammer*

      Nobody called in sick at my company when Carrie Fisher died, but we were all pretty devastated. There may or may not have been bro-flavored emotional support in the office.

    6. Gaia*

      I don’t get this. When a great artist/performer/etc dies, I am often sad. I am sad for their family and I am sad for the talent that the world lost. But I am not sad on a personal level because I do not know them on a personal level. When David Bowie died I was shocked and upset because it was sudden and his artistry was so deeply entwined with several key parts of my life. But I wasn’t the kind of shocked I would be if a neighbor/friend/family member suddenly died. We have access to so much of their lives that it sometimes feels like we know celebrities. But we don’t. And they don’t know us. Be sad for what the world has lost, sure, but to call out sick? No.

  99. Catherine Fisher*

    Kind of career related, kind of personal: I am wondering if anyone in this group has recently written the CFE (or the UFE before the amalgamation to CPA) and has any advice about whether to take one of the prep courses offered outside of CPA? Despite having been in the accounting field for almost 10 years, I only know a couple of people who went the CA route, and no one who’s completed the CFE. I am on track to write this fall and want to be sure that I do everything I can to pass, but also don’t want to spend all that money on a prep course if it is not worth it! TIA!

  100. mf*

    I’m job hunting and am looking forward to resigning as soon as I get an offer. The primary reason I’m leaving my job is that my boss is a TERRIBLE manager. She’s incompetent, lazy, emotionally needy, tries to get her employees to do work for free…

    I know that when I give her my resignation, she will want to have a long conversation about why I’m leaving. I know she already knows I’m unhappy with my job but I’ve never told her why. Honestly, the problems with my workplace and with her management “style” are so profound that I don’t see the point in trying to fix it by discussing it with her. And like I said, she’s extremely emotionally needy. She desperately wants to be liked by and to be friends with her employees. She will take it as a personal affront when I resign and will pressure me to talk about why I’ve been unhappy here.

    I’m not planning to use her as a reference, but when I’m job hunting in the future, employers may want to contact. I also don’t particularly want to burn bridges. Any advice for me on how I can handle this conversation with her without saying, “I’m quitting because you are wildly incompetent and I hate working with you”?

    1. animaniactoo*

      “I prefer a management style that is more function based than morale based. It’s a personal preference about what I feel makes me comfortable and as good an employee as I can be.”? It’s not quite there, but does it get you far enough that you can get it the rest of the way?

    2. persimmon*

      I would just make it all about the new job. You’ve learned a lot, but this new opportunity will give you a chance to do X thing not available here. People change jobs without it being a referendum on the old manager all the time.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, absolutely. Even if she wants you to get into it, you don’t have to! “I’m just really excited about the new opportunity, and thank you so much for everything.”

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I told a boss that I had found a new job. She immediately asked if it was because of her. I said, “Well, I started looking around because things weren’t great here. But I am taking this job because it is actually a terrific opportunity for me and I am really excited about it.”
        She left the topic alone after that.

  101. overwhelmedx2*

    and these weeks saga is even better y’all. my counterpart is now completely ignoring me, to the point that if i ask her how she is or even acknowledge her presence she shoots daggers at me like i killed her puppy. my manager says that we have to deal with this unprofessional-ism, but i’m honestly not sure how much more i can take.

    so i’m beefing up the resume, trying to stick it out until my bonus is paid out and find something i really like. but i’m having a hard time filling out why you are looking for a new job.

    it’s too bad. i had really high hopes for this – but i’m just not sure my sanity and health are worth this.

    1. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      I’m in the same situation with a coworker, but I refuse to leave because I enjoy my job even if they don’t.

  102. De Minimis*

    So almost all of the big job opportunities I’m looking at these days are Federal jobs, and now there’s a hiring freeze. I still go to USAJobs and am seeing some jobs posted, and am still going to apply for the ones I was looking at [though I’m expecting them to be cancelled after the close date.]

    My understanding is the freeze should be lifted in a few months,. What I’m hoping is that maybe the jobs won’t be cancelled and they’ll just wait to move forward with the process until the freeze is lifted. I noticed that jobs are still being posted daily and some of them aren’t for defense or law enforcement related agencies.

    I was really upset to hear about the freeze and have been depressed all week, I’m only gradually starting to feel better as the days go by and it seems like jobs still are being posted. I know it can’t last forever, the jobs need to be filled.

    1. Just A Fed*

      Keep applying. Agencies are handling the freeze differently (mine isn’t posting new jobs), but HR depts are still working behind the scenes.

    2. JobSeeker017*

      De Minimis, it’s unfortunate that there’s currently a hiring freeze on federal jobs.

      A former colleague of mine is currently applying for an array of government jobs (local, state, federal) and finding the hiring process to move at the speed of molasses.

      I wish you luck as you continue to search and hope you’ll continue to post on AAM in the meantime.

      1. De Minimis*

        I have a reasonably good shot at some of these, which makes it more painful.

        I’ve found the processes can vary greatly between offices [even within the same agency.] My last federal job I had an interview about a month after the close date and got a call for a tentative offer the next day. I am still hopeful that something might happen in late spring/early summer. My lease will be up then and I really hope to have some kind of job prospect outside the area by then [sick of the rent and commuting issues here…]

    3. mrs__peel*

      The Washington Post had a very useful Q & A the other day with some experts, re: hiring freeze questions. You might take a look at that.

      My understanding is that you should keep applying, because a number of the job postings are likely to be re-opened after further agency attrition (i.e., current employees will be encouraged to retire so they can hire new folks).

  103. SuperAnon for Reasons*

    So, I’ve had it with my current job. I’m looking outside the company, but an internal position recently opened up that might be an interesting pivot, but I’m worried about how it would make my resume look. I’m currently a MarCom Specialist working on a variety of projects that I more or less own. But I have no analytical responsibilities and our marketing isn’t even segmented. I don’t get experience with digital marketing at all – which is all other companies want right now (understandably). This new role would be project coordination and some administrative assistant duties in support of our new product development team (of one other person, who I’ve worked closely with). The title though is “Coordinator.” I’d get to do some analytics work though. Would that title look weird on my resume? The company isn’t huge, so “coordinator” doesn’t automatically mean a entry level position. I’m still waiting to hear back about the pay, and that might make the decision for me.

  104. Ashie*

    I hosted and presented a statewide training this week on a new way of thinking about our industry’s main purpose. I was terrified and felt completely unprepared. I was sure nobody would come and if they did I would stand in front of the room looking like a fool.

    Yet people showed up, they were interested in the topic, there was lots of discussion, and the evaluations were positive and people indicated they were thinking of things in new ways now.

    I’m so relieved and now I want to sleep for a week.

  105. notanoro*

    About 20 (!) years ago, I started work here the same day in the same department as Cordelia. I really didn’t know anyone else in the area, and being of the same age and gender, Cordelia and I hung out pretty often for a few years. We didn’t go to each other’s houses, but we ate lunch together regularly and if there was a concert or movie we both wanted to see, we’d go together; that kind of thing. Over time, we each made our own friends and socializing outside of work diminished. Our career paths also diverged; we remained in the same department but while she stayed in roughly the same position, mine evolved pretty dramatically.

    About 5 years ago, I became team lead. Cordelia is on the team. Her output is fine; not outstanding, but it’s acceptable. I’m really, really trying to focus on that because she is DRIVING ME NUTS with her process. She’s a very anxious person. When we have team meetings, she suggests the most convoluted, impractical solutions to common problems. For example: Let’s say our team packs tea pots for shipping. I mentioned that the lids of the tea pots were rattling in the boxes, so I suggest we wrap them with 2 sheets of packing paper instead of 1. In our environment, this is a super easy fix. Everyone nodded- and then Cordelia had a counter suggestion: “Why don’t we start a spreadsheet in which we record every tea pot we pack and then ask each customer to fill out a survey saying whether the lid rattled?” The other team members just stared at her. Her follow up suggestion is always something far-out there, like, “I wish we made tea pots that wouldn’t rattle. Maybe we should tell the engineers to do that.”

    I remind myself that a lot of this comes from her anxiety: she desperately wants proof and assurance that she is doing everything 100% right. In the meetings, I try to stick with policies like, “We don’t do things that would make more work for others” (which is how I shut down the spreadsheet idea; she would’ve wanted someone else to analyze the data and write a report for us). But I’m rapidly reaching BEC stage with her. Not only is that bad management, but it also blinds me to when she has a good idea. I’m primed to think everything she suggests should be shot down. I fear familiarity is breeding contempt- how do I get over myself?

    1. fposte*

      Ooh, I like this question and the way you’ve framed it. From your description, she’s not taking a lot of time and other people aren’t following her off the rails, so it’s not all that disruptive a behavior. (It also sounds like you’re comfortable enough with the team leadership to say “I think we’re going too far off the rails here and need to keep moving along.)

      1. fposte*

        Whoops, accidental early submit. So I think there are two approaches, if that’s true; one is behavioral for you, to detach you from your annoyance practice, and the other is psychological, to feel your way through it more. For the first, I would make a point of noticing what Cordelia does well; it doesn’t have to be uniquely well, but is she reliable, is she kind, is she careful, is she thorough? Think about those things. Consider also considering her as blue-skying rather than outright suggesting, or jotting down suggestions as notes and then responding to them, so they’re not her suggestions but what you’ve written down–that might help minimize the risk of automatic dismissal (which you’re really smart to be concerned about).

        On the psychology side, I’m going to hope Not So New Reader turns up because she’s really good at this. But maybe think about why this particular deficit in this particular person is such a challenge to you. Are you afraid her anxiety is catching? Uncomfortable with the disparity in your career paths, or uncomfortable with its past similarity? Do you feel like you’d lose something by not minding her odd contributions, and can you think of what that might be? Sometimes I find asking and answering this stuff out loud, no lie, helps me unpack some of the layers here and gives me a chance to negotiate around them.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          fposte, I have to agree with you in that my question is what else is going on here?

          OP, if you cannot come up with any underlying issues such as “managing her is like herding cats”, then my next question is “how would you handle this if it were just anyone else?” Let’s say one of your Rock of Gibraltar people was doing this, what would you do/say?

          Please don’t misunderstand, I am not saying you need to do/say that exact thing to her. It’s your starting point for thinking about what you WILL do. I have used this question to help guide me in talking to some folks that got under my skin. It helped me to firm up boundaries so I was more consistent with everyone. And in the end, I got “go-to’s” for situations that came up more than once. Whatever solution I arrived at, I reused it when necessary.

          So here I would start thinking about what are a few guidelines for making a good suggestion?
          Using an old job as my reference point my guidelines would start out like this:

          What goes into designing a good solution?
          1) The resources you see are what we have. We will not be buying more resources to accomplish this.

          2) We must be absolutely obsessed with how much labor is involve. We work hard enough. We need solutions that do not involve a lot of extra labor. Preferably we modify something we are doing, so the solution means tweaking something we already do.

          3) Where necessary the solution should include a mechanism to insure accuracy. A really good solution is something that everyone can use and have high accuracy.

          Okay so that is three points, I think you get the idea. Of course you need to build something that fits your place. You could make this into a handout. You could use this to do a one-on-one with her.

          I honestly don’t think that talking about the anxiety will help you gain ground. Anxiety many times is the lack of knowledge. I would try to ignore the whole anxiety topic and focus on learning how to offer good suggestions which counter-balances the anxiety at the same time.

    2. Soupspoon McGee*

      It sounds like she’s trying to show her value by making suggestions, just really bad ones. Is it worth your time to coach her on how to contribute in a more positive way? That would give you something positive to praise (something she craves) without driving you bonkers.

    3. animaniactoo*

      “Cordelia, you have some great ideas, but you also have a high percentage of ideas that are complex solutions which create extra work for others. Let’s talk about how you can refine your proposal process to get your “great” percentage higher than your “complex” percentage.

      And then walk her through the kinds of things she should consider before suggesting an idea. “Who would have to do most of the work to do this?” “How quickly would it solve the issue?” “How much would it cost to implement something like this?”

      Also, make it really really clear that it’s just fine not to have an alternate ideas to whatever’s been proposed. You won’t think less of her for not putting forth an idea – particularly if there’s a reasonable solution already on the table. In fact, you are likely to think more of her because if she increases her “great idea” ratio, you’ll be in a better position to notice how often the ideas that she brings to the table work.

      1. Hellanon*

        My first job as a manager involved fielding “solutions” to “problems” that invariably seemed to have been floated as a way of gaining meeting points, not as actual solutions to significant problems. Also invariably, these solutions involved a great deal of effort on someone else’s part. I took to responding thusly: I put on my most enthusiastic face and said, in ringing tones, “That is a great idea! Tell you what, put together a comprehensive implementation plan covering at least a year of producing this, and we’ll take it to management together.”

        At which point crickets would sing the song of their people, and I could go back to actual work.

        2. Dr. Doll*

          This is so brilliant for faculty and academia in general! I am absolutely going to do this the next time someone says “Our IT system is so screwed up, we should _____.”

  106. Chriama*

    *I asked this question last week but didn’t get many responses. Hopefully I’m early enough today to get some more visibility*

    1) Has anyone had good success with having someone help rewrite your resume? I’m talking about someone who will talk with you and help you draw out your accomplishments at your current job, not just take it, update it, and send it back to you with a bill. Any online services?

    2) Has anyone ever successfully worked with a career counsellor to help you figure out how to pick a different path? I always thought I wanted to go back to school for an MBA in order to get into management consulting, but I know that it’s an expensive process and the burnout rate in consulting is something like 2 years. I’m not comfortable spending 100k on something that might not pay off if I can’t stick it out. But I also know I don’t want to do what I’m doing right now forever because the earning potential is just not there.

    1. neverjaunty*

      Your #2 is a little confusing – is it that you are worried you might end up burning out on something you want to do, or that you really have no idea what you want to do?

      1. Chriama*

        I’m worried I might burn out on something I want to do. So I basically want to work with someone who can help me conduct career research.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      #2 – I think the value of working with a coach depends on what you already know and what you’re trying to figure out. If you want someone to give you a DISC profile or something and guide you to general career types that should fit you, there is some value, but I don’t think they can help you get very specific. For example, they can give you 15 careers for introverted, analytical types, but no one will be able to tell you if you would enjoy being an actuary more than a CPA . I think the best way to figure out these types of questions is to actually take different jobs and try new things, and first, talk to people in those jobs already.

      I’d agree with not getting the MBA without a firm plan for how you’ll use it, for sure.

    3. zora*

      I think you could look for a regular therapist, or ‘life’ coach to help you with this. I think what you need most is the guide through the process, not necessarily someone who already knows all the jobs and the answers for you.

      If I was you, I’d ask around a bunch, and get referrals to therapists or coaches that others have had good experiences with. And then tell that person (usually you get one free consultation) what you have written here and what you are worrying about and whether they think they can help you. A lot of therapists mention specifically that they work with people with career issues. I would think they would help you figure out what steps you want to take to research these things, and then help you by checking in regularly on what steps you have taken and what you are feeling about what you have figured out.

  107. AnotherAlison*

    Thoughts on leaving a large, industry-leading type company for a smaller regional company? I work for one of the top-5 companies in my field, but I am in a sort of redheaded stepchild division and department.

    I recently saw an opening somewhere smaller (still a very reputable company, but about 1/50th size of the one I work for). I would like to apply or potentially consider looking for more of those types of opportunities, but I am nervous about making the wrong choice.

    I see pros as having a bigger impact from your work and working at HQ, not having corporate dictate my email sig (seriously), and more local work. There are positions I won’t consider here because of the travel, while the same job there would be regional only, and a good fit skill-wise.

    I guess my main question is if I hate it, would I be able to get back to the type of company I am at now? Other pitfalls of this type of move?

    1. Emmalee*

      I think it depends on the industry. From my experience, I moved from an industry-leading, huge, corporate environment for a small company. I like it 1000 times better, and will never go back to a corporate environment. I absolutely fit in better with this small company. I felt totally out of place in the corporate world, and find everything about my new, small company so much better. Friendlier coworkers, more appreciation for my work, less stressful, “higher ups” that know every employee by name, etc. I know it’s completely dependent on the person, but that is my experience. I don’t think moving to a smaller company would prohibit you from moving back to a large company, though. In fact, it may look good to recruiters seeing that you’ve had experience in both.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Thanks for the input! That’s the type of difference that I would hope for. My coworkers are friendly here, but I don’t think I’m very “corporate.” I fit in here in my group, but when you get above my level, people are in a game that I’m not cut out for. I feel like I’m doing “A” and it’s good, but “B” would be my best type of role, but here “B” is for someone who is more of a “golden boy” person than I am.

        (Interestingly, I saw in the commute thread we actually are in the same metro area. Now I’m curious where you were before, but don’t say!)

  108. Overqualified*

    How do you respond to a rejection letter that says “you may be past this level in your career”? The role was referred to me by a friend, and I’m at a survival job, not really making any real money. If she hired me, I would be loyal and grateful and stay as long as that is reciprocated and compensated fairly. I may be over-qualified in terms of industry knowledge and tenure, but this would is a small step up from my current role, with a little more money, and somewhere I’ve never been. So it suits me well.
    Or is this just code for “I’m not interested in you?
    Thanks for any advice.

    1. animaniactoo*

      It’s code for “We don’t think you’d stick around long enough to make it worth our while to hire you”.

      I think that if you’re applying for jobs that are significantly below what you could be doing, you’re going to have to be very explicit that you know that and talk about how long you would expect to stay and why.

      Potentially, it’s also code for “We’re looking for somebody we can train into this role and promote out of it and if you’re backwards applying we think you’re not a match for the kind of person we want in the role”.

    2. Jadelyn*

      They’re worried that you’d be bored or frustrated and would be looking to move on.

      If you can be clear in your cover letter that you genuinely want the lower role then that might help. I once got a resume from someone who had 10+ years of management experience applying for an associate-level job, but her CL explained that she is looking to scale back her level of responsibility and felt that our associate role would be a perfect balance for what she’s looking for, so we did move forward with her.

    3. SeekingBetter*

      I have yet to receive that “you may be past this level in your career” rejection letter. I have applied for quite a few entry-level jobs in my field that I’m definitely way overqualified for and if they bother to send me a rejection email or letter, they usually write “we have decided to go with a candidate that closely matches our needs.” Or “this position has already been filled.”

  109. Jbern*

    How to ask for higher raise?

    I received what is essentially a cost of living adjustment on my contract with the federal government. I’m paid well for my years of experience, but not as much as federal employees who have less responsibility. I’m producing work that has been praised by the Agency’s director and I’m leading another project that is exceptionally contentious, high risk, and impacts the agency at the highest levels. I was just told by my boss that I’m the “best” (i.e., most skilled) person she knows in the type of work I do.

    Another co-worker with my same title (he negotiated a title change after I came on board, because I had a more senior title than he did) works on projects that are significantly less complex in nature and he has a lot more hand holding and oversight. I don’t know what he gets paid and I don’t really care.

    How should I approach my company with a request for a higher raise?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      This is coming from someone who knows just about zip about federal contracting, so take this w/a grain of salt. If your supervisor is not going to give you a raise based on the positive, across-the-board, high-level impact your assignments have had on the agency’s mission (e.g., how much money was saved, processes that now take X # of hours less to accomplish than before but with Y% better outcomes), then the only other thing I can think of that s/he’d understand would be if you were a rainmaker. If you have been, and you know the dollar amounts of the contracts you helped to recruit and win, then could you justify additional compensation based on X% of the contract? Also, have you ever been able to initiate any cost savings or time efficiencies for your *own* contract company? I know that sounds weird, but maybe you did something like that in the past, and completely forgot about it. Too, maybe re-reading your contract’s “statement of work” will give you some ideas of how to monetize what you’ve done.

  110. Anxa*

    I was pretty bummed to find out that my new job will only be about 5 hours a week, plus whatever extra I get that week.

    I know this is just whiny, but I just want one full-time or two hefty part-time jobs. I’m so not looking forward to having a new schedule every week, as I have issues with organization (I’m great at organization at work, just not for myself) and need to know my schedule so I can plan my sleep out better.

    1. Dr. Doll*

      That does not sound whiny, it sounds reasonable. No one wants to run around to 5 jobs (just ask the freeway flyers at any university campus). Sorry this happened to you, Anxa.

  111. Nadia*

    So I’ve been informed this week that I’m being laid off in a month or so. I’m trying to decide how/if to use my sick time–I have about 30 hours banked and am now kicking myself for not taking any of it in December when I was down with a horrible cold. (I work remotely, so I wasn’t infecting my coworkers.) My PTO should cash out, my sick time will not.

    I can’t move up any of my doctor/dentist appointments, though I should probably schedule a checkup with my primary care doctor before I lose my health insurance. I’m super-anxious about the layoff, and I’m thinking maybe a mental health day or two might be beneficial. Thoughts? Should I just schedule the doctor appointment and let the rest go?

    1. Biff*

      I would take a couple, maybe three, days for mental health and definitely schedule a visit with your GP. I would phrase it this way “I’d like to make sure that the last few weeks I am with you that I cross all my ts and dot all my is, but I need to take a few days off to take care of my health before my insurance runs out, and set myself up for success on the way out.” You don’t need to tell them that not all of those days involve doctor visits.

      I would schedule a couple of things on the mental health days:

      A massage
      A facial or body treatment, if you like that sort of thing.
      A chiropractic visit
      If you are into fitness, schedule an appointment with a personal trainer to check your form and maybe set yourself up for some quality gym time during unemployment
      If you need it — a cut and a color so that you can have a fresh face for interviews
      A shopping trip for one or two great new outfits for interviewing
      A lunch date with someone you’ve been putting off
      If you have pets: a vet checkup
      Visits from the plumber/hvac guy/appliance repairman/etc. GOing into unemployment knowing your home is in top shape will be lots less stressful than wondering if the funny noise the washer is making is going to cost you a pile.

  112. Abigael*

    I work for a very nice but (in my opinion) somewhat incompetent boss. She drives me crazy, so I’d love some advice on how to handle one specific situation and also how to deal with incompetence patiently on an almost daily basis without losing my mind.

    The situation: I work in sales and I get assessed based on my sales numbers. The problem is that, while I recruit customers and help them initialize the process, I’m required to hand off my customers to my boss for the final step of the sale, and my boss consistently drops the ball. She forgets to reply to clients’ emails, or takes 2-3 months to send a response. I know this for a fact, because often my clients will reach out to me and ask why their orders have not yet been processed. It’s common for my clients to decide to cancel their orders because of the long delays and lack of response from my boss, and then I get in trouble for not making my sales numbers! How can I keep my reputation clean without throwing my boss under the bus? She is very sensitive to any type of feedback or potential criticism of her work. I’ve asked before if there was anything I could do to help lessen her workload and process the orders more quickly, and she get offended and says she’s “handling it.” I’ve asked if I could be trained in the final step that she’s now in charge of, but she says it’s too much work to train me.

    Advice?

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      There is somebody above her that will care an awful lot that she’s dropping the ball on this and costing the company sales. Go have a talk with this person. You are not throwing her under the bus. You are reporting a very big problem to someone that can do something about it.

      1. neverjaunty*

        This. It is not “throwing somebody under the bus” to have them held accountable for slacking off in a way that harms your work.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Sorry, but you’re going to have to throw your boss under the bus. The question is how can you throw your boss under the bus most respectfully.

      Is your company large enough to have an HR department? If so, that’s where I’d start, with documentation. “I’m being penalized for my sales numbers over something that is out of my control, and I’ve tried X, Y, and Z steps to rectify this but have had no success. Is there a way to change how my sales numbers are being recorded, or do you have any ideas on things that I can try to get my boss to either hand off the final step of the process to me or complete it in a more timely manner?”

    3. Not So NewReader*

      If it’s too much work to train you, then you have gone as far as you can go here.
      Can you move to another department?

      I guess I would point blank say, “I sent you 15 people last month and the sale has not been finalized. So now on my eval it looks like I did nothing because no sales were closed. What can we do to fix this?”

  113. Sally Sparrow*

    I’ve been having issues (again) with my supervisor. I’m currently an assistant and asked what I should improve on to put myself in a good position for a promotion. Instead, I was told there was nothing I can do; I’m just too new (officially less than a year, but including my time as a temp it is 1 1/2 years). She was also unable to tell me what the difference is between and assistant and associate (what a promotion would put me to). Is this something I could ask HR – what the difference is between an assistant and associate? Is this something I should continue trying to pursue with her?

    This is just one example where I have trouble getting questions answers and help with issues. She has a tendency to talk around what I’m asking. Another example, I am responsible for the teapot hallway. A CW updates one of the teapots but I don’t get informed when the teapot is update. Updating is also something I could do myself if given the information. When I asked her if one of the two things could happen, she began talking about something else and refused to recognize my concern that I don’t know when the teapot gets updated and since the entire teapot hall is part of my responsibility, if it’s not updated it will come down on me.

    Help? Advice?

    1. JobSeeker017*

      Sally Sparrow, congrats on going from temp to full-time employee! It’s always great to read about someone being able to transition to more money and benefits.

      With regard to your question, I wonder if your boss doesn’t know and believes in redirecting the conversation she can retain control. Do you believe your supervisor might be more receptive to your questions in print or if they were presented in a different format?

      Also, could you speak with HR about the natural trajectory of new hires in the company? Does someone typically remain an assistant for two years before moving up to associate?

      Again, great job on getting hired and for being a full-time employee for a year. Please don’t allow your frustration with your boss’ communication style to reduce your enjoyment and be an obstacle to your future success.

      1. Sally Sparrow*

        I’ve been specifically asked to use email less with her, so I don’t think that would be a good idea.

        I don’t think there is a time frame set in stone as I’ve had CWs that have been here 5 years and have moved from assistant to senior associate and a CW that has been here for a year moving from reception to HR/Finance assistant. Supervisor even told me that I should go elsewhere for a promotion.

        I don’t think there is anything wrong with my performance as the only negative thing in my performance review were occasional typos in my work.

        I think it boils down to supervisor doesn’t come across as supportive to me, whereas my previous supervisor (who I still work with but not in that role) was always really supportive and encouraging. And I can’t get simple policy/procedure/generic questions answered anymore (taking a short lunch to leave early, where is my desk going to be, what is my job description, etc.).

    2. neverjaunty*

      Short of a new job – work on not letting her talk around you. When she doesn’t answer a direct question, repeat it. There are ways to do this politely. “I’m sorry, I probably didn’t ask that in a clear way. What I need to know is…..” or “That’s really helpful to know about teapot lids. What I wanted to ask about was teapot updates, though. I can do the updates myself. Is that okay going forward?”

  114. Tookie Clothespin*

    I had an interview for my first full-time, permanent post college position. They said it is basically a 24/7 job (i.e. even after work, the boss may call and expect you to pick up) and that they don’t expect people to last much longer than a year because it is so demanding. They have had people totally overwhelmed in the first few weeks and try to scare interviewees out of the job.

    The pay isn’t bad for entry-level, no discussion yet of PTO (but I would expect that you can never truly disconnect even when on vacation), the commute is great and it is in my field. So those are the perks.

    I’m conflicted (about whether to take it if I get the job) and was hoping that the AAM commenters who are much wiser than myself might have some advice.

    1. Emmalee*

      Seems like a huge red flag to me. They’re TELLING you that they don’t expect people to last longer than a year? I would never willingly go into situation where they’re basically telling you how terrible it is. Also, I think it would be really difficult to transition straight from college into a position where you’re expected to be available 24/7. Just my two cents.

    2. mf*

      How do you perform under pressure? Do you prefer to be busy or do you like having a lot of free/unscheduled time? How is the job market in your field and hard would it be to get another job after 10-12 months? Because this job is so demanding, would it potentially catapult you to a second job that is more desirable? Or would you possibly do just as well in the long run if you accepted a job at another company that is not so demanding?

      Ultimately, I think you have to know yourself. I know that I couldn’t handle a job this demanding. When I’m under a lot of pressure and never get a break, I grow anxious and depressed and sometimes start to suffer from insomnia. It would be really hard for me to tough it out even for a year because I would be a nervous wreck. But I have friends and family members who would fare better than me in this kind job because they are better at coping with stress and they tend to enjoy being busy.

      If you do decide to take the job, start strategizing right away on how you will handle the pressure and 24/7 schedule. What self-care habits will you engage to relieve stress? How can you save time in your personal life so that you are able to have some time off when not working? Are there any daily tasks or errands that you can eliminate? If not, can you throw money at the problem (pay for a dry cleaning service, have your groceries delivered, etc) to save time?

    3. orchidsandtea*

      That sounds…horrible. Unless pay is spectacular, or it sets you up for amazing lifelong networking opportunities, or gives you access to free training that will make you incredibly in demand with future employers, I’d run far away.

    5. Tookie Clothespin*

      Thanks everyone. You confirmed what I was thinking, but I wanted to make sure I wasn’t totally off base.

    6. Jules the First*

      Having held one of these jobs (for eight years….yes, I’m certifiably nuts), the questions to ask yourself are:

      – am I the kind of person who can live my life tethered to my work phone? I have done work while following my mother around an art gallery, standing in the lobby of the cinema while my date finished the movie without me, feeding strained prunes to my niece, wearing nothing but a towel in my hallway, changing my nephew’s diapers, sitting in economy class on an airplane on my way to my grandmother’s funeral while the flight attendants give me dirty looks for disrupting the safety briefing, and (a personal low-point), while sitting on the toilet. With food poisoning.

      – will I thrive on juggling four million balls all the time, or will I be a nervous wreck about dropping one?

      – when the phone rings with a disaster at five minutes to six on a Friday night, just as I’m about to leave the office, will I be more a) angry that I have to cancel my evening, or b) psyched to leap in and save the day?

      – what (and who) else is in my life that will suffer because I cannot make reliable plans or devote my full attention to it (or them)? It is nearly impossible to start a relationship in this kind of job, it will be very hard on every relationship you already have (including friends and family, unless you are already the kind of person who flakes out on plans with little notice, in which case you probably won’t be very good at this job), and you will give up most of your hobbies (because most non-solo hobbies require you to commit to something consistently). Also, your houseplants will die of neglect, dust bunnies will evolve an advanced social hierarchy under your bed, and your dog will never forgive you.

      – what job will I get in a year’s time when I am burned out and finished with this job? Find out what people do after they succeed at this job, and, if that’s interesting to you, if there are any other ways to get there. In my case, it was worth it (in spades) because I’m much further along in my career than the peers who didn’t take this route.

      There are people who thrive in these jobs, there are people who can perservere in these jobs, and there are people for whom it is a disaster. The key is not to take the job unless you know, with absolute certainty, which kind of person you are.

      1. mf*

        YES. This is exactly what I was trying to get at. I would be one of those individuals from whom it be would be a disaster. My husband, who handles stress better than I do and likes working more than I do, could persevere in this kind of position. But neither of us would thrive. Knowing that, neither of us would chose a high-pressure, 24/7 job unless we had to (due to being out of work for a long time) or unless it would HUGELY benefit our careers.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        This is a great list of questions (including the acknowledgement that there are people who thrive in these sorts of jobs; you just have to be sure that you are one).

      3. Tookie Clothespin*

        This was a great list of questions and makes me realize that without a doubt, this is not the job for me. Now I can enjoy my weekend! I hope you have achieved more work-life balance now!

      4. Turanga Leela*

        Adding to this: I would go watch The Devil Wears Prada and see how you react. If you think Anne Hathaway is too tied to her job and is neglecting Adrian Grenier and her friends, that’s a strike against this job. If you think Adrian Grenier needs to get over himself because it’s just a year and Anne Hathaway can’t help it that the Met Ball is on his birthday… then the job might be a better fit.

        I’m only being slightly facetious.

  115. Ghost Pepper*

    How do you know when it’s time to let someone go?

    It’s been a few months since I’ve increased an employee’s responsibilities with higher level tasks. (Think: Instead of making copies of reports, also drafting reports.)

    He’s struggling and I feel like he’s not understanding those higher level functions. I’ve sat sat down with him, and explained things to him several times. And he misinterprets or inadvertently forgets those ideas. Other mistakes he’s made makes me question his ability to understand higher level concepts.

    Obviously, there is a learning curve, and it hasn’t been that long. (I have years of experience in this field.) He means well and he’s trying hard. There are incremental improvements (I guess), but I’m starting to lose faith in his ability to meet the expectations of the role, which I admit have changed since he started. I need help with other higher level tasks, and I honestly don’t trust him yet to take those on.

    How do you distinguish between a reasonable learning curve and someone who’s not really getting it (or getting it too slowly)?

    I am a first-time manager, so this is new territory for me. Any thoughts?

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Not a manager, but this was pretty much me recently. It’s hard to find yourself in a role that’s changed in a way where you find yourself struggling. You don’t say how long this has been going on–if he’s having to learn a whole new job in just a few weeks, then I can see why he might not be totally up to speed. But if it’s been several months and he’s not making measurable progress, then the job may be a poor fit for him now.

      If you have to let him go, I’d do what I could to make it easier for him. Maybe a little severance if you can, or a decent reference, and not contesting unemployment.

    2. BRR*

      I’m not sure how drastic the higher-level tasks are but it sounds like it’s not working out. Expectations for jobs can change and the tasks aren’t drastically different work I’d put him on a PIP or at the very least start by making it clear he’s not performing at the level you need him to and his job is at risk. If they tasks are a real stretch for anybody in that role it’s a different story.

      Can you use other employee performance to measure him against?

    3. NW Mossy*

      In the immediate term, it seems to me like you need him to put together a week-by-week plan and an associated responsibility to report to you about the status of the work each week. Him owning those two pieces are key, because that’s how he’ll take ownership of the deliverables and it’s also how you’ll figure out where he’s going off track.

      On your side, it’s also worth remembering that it’s extremely helpful to give people autonomy in how they do the work to the fullest extent possible, because they can develop a method that works well for them and their style, even if that’s not the way you would do it. Sometimes you have to do things a specific way for important reasons (such as audit controls around financial work), but if the specifications are around the end result rather than the method, explain the required end result and give him some rope to work out his own way to do it. Your way can be a guide, but don’t push him to follow it to the letter if he can achieve the desired result another way.

    4. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      Is it a reasonable learning curve? Does he need more training? And are you accommodating his preferred learning style? Explaining may work for you but not him.

      I’m a listen and read/write learner meaning I learn best by listening to information, asking questions, and reading written instructions. Recently someone trained me on something by showing me what it looked like when they did it (showing me, not explaining it to me) and giving me visual diagrams. I was completely stressed out and couldn’t get my head round it. Watching someone do something makes crickets sing in my brain. Ten minutes alone with the process instructions and I had it nailed. (I now know to actually fill in the ‘Do you have a preferred learning style?’ box on our training request forms.)

      Have you asked him what would help? Is it possible sitting down and explaining just isn’t what he needs to learn?

  116. Nervous Accountant*

    Thank you to everyone who replied last week, and last month actually when I came forward about my issue with a coworker.

    Things are pretty quiet for now and low key. After what happened last week, I was getting the silent treatment (fully expected and normal of this person) but things were back to normal this week. Or I should say a new normal–professional courteous but not too friendly. so I’m OK with that.

    Only annoying thing…”you look so tired. you OK? Is everything alright? You look so out fo it.”
    (I’m perfectly fine, just tired from working 50 hours just like everyone else). I need to kno whow to respond to it without the “omg, relax, you’re so cranky!” response. (I tend to freeze and not be able to respond).

    81 one days to go. On a happier note, there’s a puppy in the office today!

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      I’m pretty sure the response to most of these question is, “It’s tax season.”

    2. JobSeeker017*

      Nervous Accountant, love that you’ve got a countdown!

      From what you’ve described, it sounds as though your co-worker may be attempting to passively aggressively concern troll you. The silent treatment coupled with the frequent unsolicited comments about your appearance lead me to this conclusion.

      You have less than three months to go, so I would advice you just smile, shrug your shoulders and keep the conversation focused on work or the weather. It’s not worth your time and energy to engage with this person.

      In the meantime, keep that countdown clock in mind and pet the puppy for me!

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        CONCERN TROLLING.. YES YES! that’s exactly what I was thinking I just couldn’t articulate it.

        I started my countdown 2 weeks ago :)

    3. animaniactoo*

      “Yes, I’m fine, thank you.”

      “But you look so tired!”

      “I’m fine, thank you, can we move on now please?”

      “Wow, relax, no need to be so cranky”

      “Hmmm. I’m not feeling particularly cranky. In any case, I need to get back to…/let’s move on, thanks.”

      “Geez, you really are cranky today”

      “Okay.”

      All of your stuff…. calm and matter of fact as you can manage it. You can’t control their response. You can control yours. If they’re going to insist the sky is green, at some point, even if you’re the sky, the thing to do is not be the other crazy person in the conversation. Just allow them to carry on with their own viewpoint… which everybody else can see is, well, wrong.

    4. Annie Moose*

      So glad to hear things are at a relatively normal level. Professionally courteous is not a bad place to be.

      I agree with the other commenters, staying as calm and neutral as possible is the only thing to do when he’s concern trolling you. If you can monotonously go “I’m fine. Now about [actual topic at hand]” or “I’m fine. Excuse me, I need to get back to work” over and over again, he’s gonna get bored. (And conveniently, a response like that will work for both “you look tired, are you ok?” and “you seem cranky, why are you cranky?”)

    5. neverjaunty*

      Agree with everyone else here. Treat your co-worker’s chatter the same way you would “good morning” or “how are you” – that is, not as real questions, but as social statements requiring a formula response. “I’m fine, thanks” or “I’m actually feeling fine, but thank you”, delivered in a polite but neutral tone, are perfectly adequate responses to all of this nonsense.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      “I’m okay, I am just tired of being asked if I am okay.”

      “You ask me that a lot. I’m not going to be answering that question or variation of it anymore.”

      “It’s really not appropriate to keep asking someone if they are okay. You can see the person is here and working so that answers that question.”

  117. Knope 2020*

    So I have been reading through archives and noticing a lot that people seem to get put off by hour long commutes to work.

    Can I just ask what you guys’ commute time is and your general happiness with your commute? Optional info that would be interesting is a general location (country, state, or city if you feel like it)? If this has been done before I’d be interested in seeing it! I’m kind of wanting to find out what is an average or “normal” commute – an hour seems like a normal commute to me but it may be because of where I live (where 45 mins to an hour is pretty much standard).

    Me first:

    My commute is an hour and a half on public transport, and I’d be fine with it except that I have to change methods of transport three times and if I miss my train I have to wait a while for the next one (which can take it up to 2 hours + if there are any other delays). I am in London, UK.

    1. HelloWorld*

      I used to walk 20 minutes to work. Best commute ever.

      Definitely makes a difference in happiness levels. Taking the subway 30 minutes, I can meditate or read. Driving over an hour in LA traffic — awful. I don’t even want to go to work because I dread having to drive home.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        A 20-min walk is the best commute. Enough time to transition, but not so long that you don’t want to do it!

        My current commute is 45 minutes (if no delays) on two subway lines. It’s fine, especially if I get a seat.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I live in a medium-sized city in the Southeastern US where there is a lot of commuting among 3 or 4 different areas and minimal public transportation. My commute is about 15 minutes, give or take– it can be 10 minutes on the highway with no traffic. I usually take surface roads just so I can keep moving, and that can take about 20-25 minutes. I love my commute. It’s pretty short for the area, because a lot of people work in a central location that is accessible only by highway, and the traffic can get bad.

      I spent 10 years in NYC and took public transportation every day. I used to have a 45-minute commute by subway, then a 10-minute commute by subway. I eventually started taking the bus, which was considerably longer (about 45 minutes, I think) but much more pleasant– I had a seat for most or part of the ride, I got to ride down 5th Avenue, and I didn’t have to deal with my claustrophobia. In New York, 45 minutes is pretty normal.

      I know people in my current area who drive 90 minutes each way, and frankly, that sounds like my nightmare. I never minded my long public transit commute because I could zone out, read, close my eyes for a second… Paying rapt attention while driving is exhausting to me and I hate doing it for more than an hour.

    3. Biff*

      I commuted 23 miles in the Bay Area, it took about 1 hour, 15 minutes in the morning no matter when I left and about 1 hour in the afternoon. It was miserable. There were a ton of commuters on the road who were distracted, or so tired of driving they drove poorly. I watched a couple of accidents, and saw one guy die. It sucked the life out of me and drained me of all desire to do anything. I had a walking route that was 30 minutes before that, and for the most part, that was bliss. Public transit is better than driving, IMO, because you can read a book, knit, finish a crossword puzzle. However, an hour and a half still seems too long, and changing trains twice seems a bit onerous. I’d move either closer, or to a location with more direct/straightforward public transit to work.

    4. Cruciatus*

      Mine is roughly 30 minutes by car on two major highways. It’s too long for me! But then I hear about hour long and more commutes and realize I maybe don’t have it so bad. But I wouldn’t want to go much longer than 30 minutes. The job would have to be exceptional. An hour would be absolutely miserable to me. I like having a little time to myself, but I also like to have as much time at home or doing something that isn’t work (and the commute is still work adjacent for me, especially the drive home).

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I live in the Midwestern US, and my work is 15-20 minutes by car from my house. I am at the point where I don’t really want to spend more than 30 min commuting. My first job was a 45 min-1 hr drive depending on traffic. It wasn’t so bad because I work 8 hr days with 30 min for lunch back then. Now, I tend to work 10 hr days. . .adding 2 more hours on top of that wouldn’t work for my home life very well.

    6. jm*

      I live in the Southeast, and my commute is 45 minutes each way. However, I do live in a rural area outside of the city — if I lived in the city or suburbs, it’d be closer to 25 minutes. I have a scenic drive, though, and my kids are able to go to school near my office, instead of the not-as-great schools near my home.

    7. LCL*

      25 minutes in the morning by personal car, 35 minutes in the evening. This is considered a short commute.
      It used to be 22 minutes morning, less than 30 evening.
      I don’t use transit-I can live with the transfer downtown which is the opposite direction of where I am trying to go. I can’t live with getting to work late, I have to take the earliest bus and it is always late, which causes me to miss the transfer bus.
      I am in a left coast city in the US that has exploded in growth overnight. My major unhappiness is getting stuck behind someone on the way to work who is feebing along (5mph or more less than posted speed) peering at their GPS or phone when there isn’t any traffic in front of them.

    8. Emmalee*

      I live in the Midwest (Kansas City), so an hour commute would definitely be a deal breaker for me. Public transportation is very uncommon where I live. My commute is 8 miles from home – never more than a 15 minutes drive on the highway. It’s perfect for me! Honestly, anything more than 30 minutes one way would be less than desirable for me. I love that I can be home within 15 minutes of leaving work and have more time with family. I hate the thought of wasting my days commuting.

    9. Nervous Accountant*

      NYC. My commute is 1 hour + 15-20 minutes door to door. This is IF I get dropped off to the train station and picked up. If I take the bus, it’s easily 2 hours each way.

    10. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I’m in NYC. My commute is about an hour, door to door. That’s about 15 minutes of walking and then a 45-minute subway ride. Most mornings, I can get a seat on the subway and zone out, read, or catch a little bit of sleep. On days when I have to stand, crammed into the subway car with dozens of other passengers, the commute feels never-ending.

    11. Jadelyn*

      I’m in the San Francisco Bay Area (East Bay). My current commute is only about 15 minutes by car and is just across town – this is the first time in my life I’ve lived and worked in the same city, and it’s been awesome! I might be less happy if I relied on public transit, since I’m far enough out in the edges of the Bay that BART doesn’t get close enough to be useful for most of us, but I own my own car and love to drive in general, so it works well for me.

      Other jobs I’ve usually had around 20-30 minute commutes, and considered myself lucky tbh. 45+ minutes is pretty much the standard for most people around here. For the right job, I’d be willing to consider up to 45 minutes, or if it were in the city close enough to the ferry building to be practical, I’d be okay with the 1 hr ferry ride.

        1. zora*

          Hi neighbors!!!! [waves eagerly]
          Jadelyn, have you heard of the transbay buses? They are the best for my commute into SF, it’s about 40-50 minutes door to door in the morning, but I almost always get a seat on the bus, and they go in a lot more directions than the BART does. I’m close to BART, and it would be a little faster, but it’s so crazy packed, I’m much happier with the bus.

          Anyway, EastBayIsTheBest High Five!! ;o)

          1. Jadelyn*

            I have not, actually – that’s really good to know, since I’m idly job-searching and hate having to rule out a number of jobs that are further away bc of lack of transit options. Thanks for the heads-up!

            1. zora*

              I know, right?? I was reeeallly hesitant to take a job in SF after years of working in Oakland, but someone told me about the transbay buses, and it’s actually a pretty easy commute. I get lots of reading done, so I don’t mind it much!

    12. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      I’m in the LA area and I left a job I loved (mostly) because of a 1.5-2 hour commute each way in the car. My current commute is a 2 mile bike ride on the beach: 15 minutes door-to-door. It changed my life–and I’m not being hyperbolic!

    13. Not Karen*

      Disclaimer: I’m not as bothered by long commutes/drives as most people.

      My commute is 40 minutes (walking + bus). I am mostly okay with it, though I’d prefer the bus stop to be closer to my apartment (it’s currently a 10 minute walk in the morning, 5 in the evening). I live in a small Midwestern city.

    14. Annie Mouse*

      I’m in the UK as well. I’ve got a 25 mile commute at the moment. It takes about half an hour each way for a day shift as I miss rush hour. Night shifts I hit it both ways, especially coming home, so it takes about 45 minutes going in and at least an hour going home (except weekends, going home after a weekend night shift is almost blissful!).
      I am potentially looking at my work station being moved, and not in a good way, I’ll be looking at 40+ miles each way and at least an hour travel time. When I used to work in a lab, that wouldn’t have bothered me but I think now, my limit is an hour. That’s simply because I spend a minimum of 12 hours at work (usually more) and I find that after nights, I’m starting to get dangerously tired by the time I get home.
      Probably far more information than you wanted!

    15. Emotionally Neutral Grad*

      Mid-sized city in the northeastern US. My morning commute is about 30-45 minutes by car, but my afternoon commute is rarely less than 45 minutes and usually closer to an hour. I could bus if I really wanted to, but that would take my commute up to roughly 1.5-2 hours and result in me arriving later and leaving earlier than I need to at this job. My commute is quite irritating, but how much is due to normal factors (distance, traffic) and how much is due to endless construction I do not know.

    17. Koko*

      I live in a close-in Marland suburb of DC (less than 1 mile from city line) and commute to deep in the heart of DC (Dupont Circle). It takes me about 30-45 minutes in the car depending on when I leave, and then about a 5 minute walk from where I park to my office building.

      I consider this a pretty short commute by DC standards and I’m fairly pleased with it. When I lived in DC proper I usually took public transit and it would take me 45-60 minutes to go a shorter distance by transit than the longer distance I now travel by car. 15-20 minutes of that was just walking between my house or office and the transit stop. Because I paid more in housing to live in the city and close to transit, I think I felt more pressure to use it then even if it took me longer and wasn’t any cheaper than driving. There’s a certain shame heaped upon city dwellers who drive around town that I escape now by being in the suburbs.

      It’s actually the perfect amount of time for me to fully wake up by the time I reach the office, and since I don’t leave my house til after 8:30 I often use my car’s Bluetooth in the morning to get out of the way any calls I need to make that can only be made in regular business hours, e.g. to the bank, utility company, etc.

    18. GiantPanda*

      45 to 60 minutes on public transport. 20km in Germany. It would only be about 20 minutes by car, but my employer provides a subsidized bus/train ticket. I am quite happy with that – get to read a lot.

    19. Tau*

      At Actual Parent Company, my commute is normally around 15-20 minutes walking, 5 minutes cycle. I love it! :) Sadly, due to roadworks part of the route is closed to everything and everyone and the distance is currently triple what it normally is.

      At Client Site, the commute is 10 minutes drive/15 minutes bus (but that one only runs every two hours and has been known to be upwards of half an hour late)/30 minutes cycle. I generally cycle it, although the traffic is pretty unpleasant.

      Both these places are in southern England but not in London.

    20. Manders*

      I walk 30 minutes each way. I love my commute, but it’s not all that common in my city with my income range; I can only manage it because I split rent for a cheap apartment with my husband. When we decide we need more space or the rent rises to the point that we’re pushed out of the city, it’s possible that my commute will be an hour+ each way on public transit. At that point, I’ll start exploring alternatives like rideshares, working for companies with private shuttles, working from home, or trying to buy land near planned light rail stations.

      I’m in Seattle, WA. Our infrastructure is kind of a mess right now, and probably will be for a while, since we’re about to lose a ton of federal funds (for political reasons I support, but it will hurt the city quite a bit).

    21. Tahiti Dreaming*

      Southeastern US. 15 minute commute and I love it. I would hate being stuck in a car/on public transit for an hour+ to get to work. In fact, I’ve never worked anywhere that my commute was longer than 30 minutes, max. I guess I have been very lucky.

    22. Bad Candidate*

      My commute is currently ~20 minutes by car and I live in Omaha, Nebraska US. I used to live in the northern suburbs of Chicago, and by car my commute took about an hour. If I took the train then between the train and shuttle bus it still took about an hour, but I saved on gas money.

    23. paul*

      Small city in Texas…I live about 2.5 miles from the office, but my commute roughly doubled (to 20 minutes) after we had to change our kids daycare….

    24. Caledonia*

      I live in Fife and commute to Edinburgh. I work 9-5 M-F.

      I get my morning train at 7.35 and arrives into Edinburgh 40 minutes too early.

      I get my train home and I have to wait until 5.50 to catch a train home, as I just miss one by working until 5. We don’t have flexi and I can’t change my working hours.

      I have a terrible work/life balance and live for the weekends or holidays.

    25. SaraV*

      Previous job was 45-50 minutes in the morning, and a little bit longer in the evening. I was driving from a medium-ish university town to a larger metro in the midwest. The most annoying part of my drive was getting from my house to the interstate, because there was no really easy way to do that. Otherwise, my office was less than a mile off the interstate, and was on the western edge of town, so I exited the interstate right before the traffic got hairy.

      I reeeaaallly liked my job and the people I worked with and the company I worked for, so this was just a “price” I paid for working there. I don’t miss that hour and a half in the car, or worrying about weather, or how badly the wind is howling from the north as I travel home. Ah! The other thing I don’t miss…going east in the morning into a rising sun, or west in the evening to a setting sun.

    26. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      I’m lucky/happy when my commute is around 45 minutes. It’s only less when around a holiday and people aren’t on the roads because I live just outside a large metropolitan area. There was a point in the summer when the normal route home was closed for three months and I was lucky if my commute home was less than an hour.

    27. Temperance*

      Currenly 35 – 50 minutes each way, by train. Over the summer, it was over 90 minutes, each way, on a train and a bus, and it was hellish.

    28. Nan*

      Chicagoland, here. It’s about 30 miles, give or take. At 6 am (my usual leave home time) it’s about 30 minutes. From 6:15-7am it’s about 45 minutes. From 7am-8:30 am it’s about 1:15. Same on the way home. If I walk out at 3:30 (on time) then it’s about a half hour, and it goes up from there.

      If it rains, add an extra 15-20 minutes.

      If it snows, 2-3 hours.

    29. Annie Moose*

      10-15 minutes both ways by car, for me. I live in the Midwestern US and drive through suburb-y areas; the heaviest traffic I encounter is if I drive by the high school when the buses are coming in. This is quite a short commute, obviously! The actual mileage is under 5 miles.

      I definitely can’t complain about the length of my commute. :) I used to do about 35 minutes almost entirely on freeways (this thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled-access_highway) with virtually no traffic, which I could handle but wasn’t fond of. Did listen to a LOT of podcasts and the radio, though.

    30. Isben Takes Tea*

      50 minutes by train (plus 10 by car and 10 by walking) (SF Bay Area). Because I’m so far out on the train line, I always get a seat, which makes the commute bearable (I can do fun work, read, sleep, etc.). But it does suck 2.5 hours out of my day, and makes me really unlikely to do fun things “in the city” on the weekend with friends.

    31. Damn it, Hardison!*

      My commute is generally 1 hour door to door. I drive minutes to the parking lot for the subway, take the train for 30-45 minutes and then a short walk to my office. My commute time includes a stop for coffee too. It’s pretty similar to that of my colleagues.

    32. BRR*

      I’m 1:40 each way in the NYC area mostly on public transit, transfer once, and have what I feel is a decent length walk (at least with my backpack). I hate it. If some could be cut out like the traffic in and out of the train station parking lot or the black Friday like situation of getting on and off the train I’d be much happier.

    33. Red Reader*

      If I go on site, the two office locations are 20 and 35 minutes away from my house by car.

      My normal commute consists of “make it down the stairs and around the corner without tripping over a dog or stepping on a cat.”

    34. Jules the First*

      I am also in London, UK, and mine is 28 minutes door to desk and about five minutes longer in the evening because my station frequently closes for overcrowding. I love my new job :)

      I turned down a (much better paid) job in favour of this one, because the other commute was 90 minutes each way, with my choices between two tubes and three busses, or two tubes and a boat. Since it was also a longer workday and lousy benefits, I decided I could live without that degree of chaos in my life.

    35. Elizabeth West*

      I have to drive and I hate it. My city is much smaller, so my commute to Exjob was about twenty minutes by car, more if there were weather concerns (ice) or I got stuck behind an accident on the highway. Morning and evening traffic here is bad–not Los Angeles (or London) bad, but it’s sometimes annoying because of freight trains, truck driver training, industrial traffic, etc. And people here are stupid. I often want to ask them if they ran out of blinker fluid. :P

      One of my goals is to move someplace where I can use public transport, especially as I get older, because what if I can’t drive at some point? I conducted an experiment last time I was in London–I traveled back from both Central and East London all the way to Kingston at peak time, on purpose, just to see if I could handle it. (I followed all the rules of polite commuting! :D)

      Conclusion: while I didn’t love being in a stranger’s armpit, I liked not having to drive or park. I could see where the length of the commute would get tiresome, so I would probably want to live closer to my job. But if a city has buses that good, I’d be happy, though trains are awesome.

      1. Knope 2020*

        Late response but worth replying – I actually live in Kingston and commute to Central London every day, hence the hour and a half!

        I can’t afford to live closer in, but I do end up paying higher train fares (less than the rent would be if I lived closer!) and more time spent commuting.

        I mostly have it down so I get a seat on the train now XD

    36. Emilia Bedelia*

      I live in NJ suburbs. My commute is about 5 minutes- I live about a mile from my job (on the highway, so I can’t walk or bike, but I would if I could!).
      I moved here for my job and live alone with no real ties to the area, so I picked my apartment specifically because it’s so close. A lot of my coworkers commute much longer distances- 35-60 min. seems to be the norm.

    37. Someone*

      My commute is 1 1/2 hours in the morning and 1 hour in the evening (has to do with connections). But it’s on public transit, so that works for me. I can also work from home two days a week. I live in the SF Bay Area and at this point I will not drive to work. Too stressful, too dangerous, too tiring.

      My first job had the commute from hell. I was commuting up from Santa Cruz to Milpitas when an earthquake closed one side of the road and the commute became 2-3 hours each way.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Ugh!
        I walked to work when I lived in Santa Cruz, especially if the bus didn’t show up (though mostly they were good). At least the weather was usually amenable to it, plus it kept my weight down! Wish I could do that again.

    38. AnotherLibrarian*

      15 minutes by car on back roads. Suburbs of a major city in the South. When I picked my apartment, a short easy commute was a top priority.

    39. writelhd*

      I live in a small city in the southeast US and my spouse and I both have commutes of 15 minutes by car and potentially bike-able if we wanted. I used to bike one day a week but one section is a death trap for a bike so I decided to stop before I died. We are so spoiled by this commute, so much so that my husband turned down a good job offer because the commute would have been too long (1.5 hours), which we’re both still ruing, because it turns out the same smallness that offers small commutes doesn’t offer hopping job markets.

    40. Tris Prior*

      About 45 minutes on public transport, involving two trains. The second train drives me nuts in the morning – I’m always on the platform at the same time, but sometimes it’s sitting right there so I can transfer and other times I wait for up to 30 minutes. It makes NO sense at all.

      At least I reverse commute so I usually get a seat, at least on the first train.

    41. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      I commute to London. My journey is about 1.5 hours door to door. I love it. I watch iPlayer and Netflix (can download to watch offline), read, listen to music… it’s great. it’s my me-time.

    42. Elsajeni*

      I’m in Houston, TX, and my commute currently is 20-30 minutes by car. In the context of where I live and work, I perceive that as a pretty short commute. I’m generally pretty happy with it; I do complain about it, but my complaints are more about specific trouble spots (the rail crossing where a train sometimes stops, blocking the road, for 15 minutes for no apparent reason; the intersection where a busy parking garage lets out and no one knows how to take turns; etc.) than about the actual length of the commute.

    43. MWKate*

      I’m in a large Midwest city (for the state I guess?)

      My commute takes about 5-8 minutes. Depending on snow this time of year – maybe 15.

      1. Rovannen*

        Pacific Northwest, small town. My commute is 4-5 minutes by car, 20 minutes walking. I feel for the commuters when I hear the traffic reports coming out of Seattle….

    44. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Also in London – Ive got a total of about 40 minutes:

      * 5 to 8 min walk to mainline train station (NOT Southern or Southeastern thank god) with frequent trains
      *20-25 min train ride depending if I take one with or without the added stop at the next station south. A lot of people get off at my station to catch the Tube, so there is space – 50/50 I get a seat at home station
      *10-15 min walk along Thames path to office. Depends how far I detour for a coffee en route

      Not sure I would want to do more than this… if the train goes down or gets delayed I can be stuck at destination station for a good 20 mins. The tube is ok but last night it was so packed I ended up practically between a couple who were hugging each other (it felt like a super awkward menage there for a second). I have two lines and two stations for the Tube I can use, but the walk is further to get home. But its nice to have options.

      I truly feel for those south of the river with kids and having to bus them to nursery first and then train and then walk. Or the folks who have to schedule WFH days on train strike days.

    1. Cruciatus*

      My current job took a year before I finally saw how the pieces finally fit and to understand the things I needed to do (I work at a university so I do many of the same things with each semester and I now know to expect them). I’m still seeing new or better ways to do things. But it took me probably 4 months to feel comfortable with all the little things (coworkers, where things are, where to eat lunch, how my boss wants me to ask for things, knowing how to find things out).

    2. Not Karen*

      The rule of thumb I hear is about a year, but I’m a fast learner so my personal timeframe is more like three months.

      1. HelloWorld*

        Oh wow. It’s been 3 weeks at my job. I thought maybe a month was normal! Are people stressed out for a whole year, or is it just more that you’re not totally “comfortable”?

        1. Jadelyn*

          I’d say it’s more that you’re still learning new things about the role and experiencing new situations regularly, and that can definitely lead to some discomfort – like feeling that you’re not quite on solid ground yet.

        2. Not Karen*

          The way I gauge it is by at what point do I feel like I know what I’m doing vs. still learning.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      When I was like 25, a friend told me you need four months to even tell if you like a new job, and that still seems about right.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      About six months or maybe slightly less, depending on complexity. A few months to settle in and learn the basics, and then a few to start feeling like I fit in (or noticing that I don’t).

    5. Al Lo*

      My job was about a year. We run on an academic calendar, so it was a year before I’d experienced everything once. It was probably about 4-6 months when I felt like I had enough experience to start making decisions and could find work to do without being assigned to a particular project. After about 2 years, I felt like my department was truly mine, and I was taking ownership and leadership for its success and future. Part of that had to do with the fact that my co-worker (at equal hierarchy) left the organization when I’d been there 2 years, and instead of bringing on someone at that same level, we hired an assistant instead, and the department became much more mine to manage.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I think at the 6 month mark you can feel like you are settling in, perhaps you realize that you are asking less questions or the boss is giving you more to do. But in my opinion it takes a year to have an idea of all the things that are involved in a job. It can also depend on the work you are doing. Most of the jobs I have had I pushed through to the six months mark then assessed things and again at the one year mark. I avoided assessing the situation (assuming it was not horrible) until the six month point.

  119. JM in England*

    Hello everybody!

    I am looking for other’s opinions and/or viewpoints on my current work situation and my options/next moves.

    Firstly, some context:-

    I have been at my current job for six months now and am enjoying it. However, over the last couple of months I have seen some potential red flags regarding the company’s stability. One is that two product launches have failed when the trials data was not as promising as hoped for. This means that the company now depends on a single product for its revenue and a rival company has just launched a similar product. Also, one of the senior managers is leaving (apparently without another job lined up) as is my immediate boss. My gut is telling me to start job searching now so that I’m doing so whilst still employed should things go south. However, my head says to stick at it, at least until I’ve been there a year. This is my first permanent role after five years of contract gigs, so I would like to erase the “job hopper” image that’s on my resume.

    So, my question basically is what do I tell employers at interviews when they ask why I’m leaving so soon? And would it be breaking confidentiality by telling them my concerns about the company’s stability?

    Thanks in advance to anyone who replies to this post……….

    1. animaniactoo*

      1) jobhunt now – you don’t have to take an offer, but it would be really nice to be in a position to take an offer if things start to get rapidly worse, and getting into that position won’t happen overnight.

      2) “It looked promising but I have some concerns about the role I’m in and am not sure I’ll be able to stay/that they’ll move forward with it.”

      Because, you know, if the company goes south, they won’t be moving forward with your role…

    2. mooses*

      I don’t think there’s any harm in looking around right now, as long as you’re selective and only applying to places that are known to be doing well (meaning, maybe fewer start ups/young businesses and more large, established companies). In interviews, I would just talk really generally about why you’re leaving, ex: “I like where I work, but recently there have been issues that question the financial stability of my role/the company” , no reason to divulge that product launches have failed or things like that unless they push.

      1. mooses*

        I should clarify–the advice to only apply to places that are well established and doing well financially is because you’re going to want to spend years at your next job in order to diminish the appearance of being a job-hopper. Applying to a company that’s could be financially insecure would mean you’re in the same place 6 months from now.

    3. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I’m guessing you might be in pharma. If so, and you are looking at jobs at other pharmas, I think that people will understand why you are looking for a new position. It’s pretty common for people to leave a company when it’s not stable, and I don’t think anyone interviewing you would be surprised or take it in a negative way. Especially if you were involved with or supported the one of the products that failed.

      1. JM in England*

        You have guessed my field correctly.

        I now realise that I was not clear about my work history. Have had two long-term permanent jobs previously; the five-year stint of temp gigs was between the second perm job (which I had to leave to deal with a family crisis) and my current one. During my last job search, was rejected by a couple of companies because my recent history of temping indicated “movement” to them………..

        1. Not So NewReader*

          It seems to me like you have a good handle on the big picture. You probably got that from temping at various places. I would try to talk about temping as “opening my eyes to the ways this industry works on the inside.”
          Ideally, explain why you were temping and why you want a perm job now. “I was temping to stay employed when the economy tanked [or insert different reason here]. My main goal has been to find perm employment.”

          Not the best wording, but the overall idea is anticipate the question and work something into your cover letter that explains it or indicates your desire to see the same walls every day.

  120. Anxa*

    So this is pretty much job search 101, but I have a question on addressing cover letters.

    If you’re applying to larger institution with lots of different mailing addresses, say a college, do you think it’s find to address the cover letter to the school? Or would HR’s address be best? Or should you look up the department.

    When the department is listed clearly sometimes I address it there, but lately I’m shifting to just sending it to the college’s address.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      This is one of those things that, in my opinion, doesn’t matter. I presume you’re emailing these cover letters anyway, or submitting them through an electronic application system? I honestly think it’s fine to leave off the recipient’s address all together. You’re not actually mailing it, so standard business letter formats don’t necessarily need to apply.

      I typically put my name, address, and contact info at the top in the header (the format matches my resume), then start the letter with the date, hit enter twice, then “Dear hiring manager,” or whoever.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        In re-reading your question, I’m acutally not sure if you are talking about physical addresses, or the salutation. If the latter: When in doubt, it’s okay to just go with “Dear Hiring Manager,” as your salutation.

      2. Anxa*

        I’m not emailing them, but attaching them though an ATS electronically, so it doesn’t matter much.

        I’ve never seen a cover letter template that didn’t include an address, but I also agree that there’s nothing wrong with leaving it off. I actually do a weirdish thing were I don’t use standard business format for MY address. It’s part of a header that matches my resume.

        And I do stick with generic To Whom it May Concerns and Dear Hiring managers.

        1. Karo*

          I think addresses are a holdover from when you had to physically mail them. If you’re not physically mailing them, you can remove the address – I’ve never included one and it hasn’t harmed me in the slightest.

    2. Murphy*

      If the mailing address is easy to find (which can vary wildly from university to university, but mine’s usually pretty good) then I would use the mailing address for the actual department. But I agree that it probably doesn’t matter all that much, so if it’s not easy to find, I wouldn’t go crazy looking for it.

  121. zora*

    I posted last week that I was about to have my annual review, and Not So New Reader and Baker’s Dozen were SO SWEET to send me luck, and I was terrible and never replied!

    So, just a quick report back that it went REALLY well, my boss was overwhelmingly positive about everything I’ve been doing (only been here 8 months) and everything “to work on” was things she wants me to take on, or additional responsibility she wants to give me, so I’m feeling pretty good!

    It’s amazing what a good review from a good boss can feel like, when I still have so much PTSD from horribly toxic Ex-Job. I seriously forgot what it feels like to have your boss happy with your work and not surprise you with total meltdowns all the time!

    1. Jadelyn*

      It’s awesome, isn’t it? I’m also recovering from work PTSD and still amazed at how nice it feels to have your work appreciated by your manager. So glad your review went well!!

      1. zora*

        Thanks!! This isn’t necessarily a job I’m super excited about and intend to stay forever, but I’ve discovered I’d rather be in a job I’m not that invested in, but have a really great boss who encourages me to grow, then work on an issue I’m passionate about, but have a terrible boss who makes me miserable. It’s really interesting what I’m deciding is more important to me.

        And I’m sorry about your work PTSD, I hope we both get over it and have amazing fulfilling careers! ;o)

  122. She doesn't even go here*

    I’ve been in a holding pattern on an application for awhile now. Had interviews before and after the holidays and had what I was told would be my final interview 3 weeks ago. Followed up last Monday and was told they’re “wrapping up” final interviews and would be in touch.

    I checked my application status and it says “under manager review.” So…ugh. I realize nobody has a crystal ball and I’m mentally moving on. But does anyone know if those things get updated when people get taken out of the running?

    1. SeekingBetter*

      I can absolutely relate to waiting on the employer’s holding pattern since I’ve also been job searching as well. It would be nice if the employer’s update the application’s status if you’re indeed out of the running for the role; however, I don’t think every organization does it timely. Maybe this HR department at the organization you’re interviewing at will update it (if ever) when the new person starts the new role.

  123. Anonforthis*

    I had an interview for an academic library and they kept stressing how it was ‘informal’ and it was going to be a ‘casual conversation.’ It threw me a little because my questions were more formal and wouldn’t fit. I thought I did okay, but at the end the last question threw me. The interview then ended and I was a little stunned.

    When interviewers stress that the interview is “informal” and casual, are they not serious about you?Are they interviewing more for personality? They didn’t ask much about my job history or the usual questions. The director then gave me his business card and said if I had questions to email him.

    1. She doesn't even go here*

      I would love to know this. I had an interview in a coffee shop…so full suit, in a coffee shop. So strange.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I’ve been on interviews where they did this because they were looking to replace someone who was still working in the office. They didn’t want that person to see applicants come into the office for interviews and get suspicious that they were soon going to be replaced.

        I’ve been told that sometimes they do things like this to see how you conduct yourself in public, how you treat the waiter and if you have good table manners.

    2. SeekingBetter*

      I would absolutely hate doing an interview at a coffee shop, but would absolutely despise it if I had to meet the interviewer for lunch. To me, it’s really awkward to be eating and trying to talk to each other in a professional demeanor while you get ketchup all over your fingers or grease from that burger on the left side of your face, while trying to talk about your strengths, organization skills, etc. ^0^

      I’m not sure if these types of informal interviews mean they’re not serious about your candidacy though. I hope someone can answer that for you!

      1. She doesn't even go here*

        The bummer about the coffee shop is that all my other interviews were on the phone, so I didn’t get to actually see the office.

    3. Drago cucina*

      I stress that the interview is a conversation. I want to try and get people to relax so I can get a feel for personality. Skills are important, but training is involved with any position. There was the person who complained about every part of the job situation. The ILS system (Why aren’t you using Teapots Circulation instead?), the computer lab, etc. A pure Q&A probably wouldn’t have revealed this.

      1. Anonforthis*

        I understand that, but in this interview they were talking about action figures and movies. This was an interview for an academic librarian position.

        1. Drago cucina*

          This is different than the questions you asked. Informal doesn’t equal not serious. The movies and action figures? Were these the only things they asked questions about?

          1. Anonforthis*

            No, we touched on a few work related things but then got a little sidetracked and the two interviewers brought up action figures, etc. I’m wondering if they already have someone else in mind and were just going through the motions.

    4. Chaordic One*

      Well, it sounds they were kind of trying to get a feel for what you are like and to see if you had the potential to fill the role. They were probably also looking for “fit” to see how you might fit in the position. It was probably like sort of a pre-screening interview. If they like you and think you have the qualifications and skills to do the job they’ll probably invite you back for a more formal (and detailed) interview.

      If you want this job, use the email address on the director’s business card to email him a thank-you email and to restate why you’d be good in this position. Allison has lots of good suggestions about writing thank-you notes if you use the search feature in the upper right-hand corner. My favorite one was this one:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2012/06/thank-you-notes-theyre-not-about-thanking-anyone.html

      If you click on the link it will ask you to click on another link that will take you to the magazine article in U.S. News .

  124. el bano*

    I’m an EA, and my desk is right outside my boss’s office. She travels a couple days each month, and when she is out of town, I’ve gotten into the habit of using the private bathroom in her office. It’s closer to my desk than the main bathrooms, and I always leave it perfectly clean. Her office is always open to me, if I need to use her conference table or something, so is it crossing a line to use her private bathroom when she’s gone?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It doesn’t seem like that to me. At my first job out of college, I was the assistant to an executive and he was the only one who didn’t have his own bathroom. All of the other assistants used their bosses’ bathrooms when the bosses were out of town. Hmm. I don’t even know if I’d ask, to be honest. I’m assuming you have a professional cleaner who cleans that bathroom as part of his/her rounds?

      1. jm*

        Thanks for your input!

        Yes, we have a professional cleaning person. I thought about asking my boss, but if it was totally outside the bounds of professional norms (or just grossed her out), I didn’t want to look like a total idiot by asking :)

    2. BRR*

      I’d say generally no but I imagine some people might not like this. You could always ask her if it’s alright.

  126. Jadelyn*

    I am really upset with my employer and need to vent.

    The way our salary ranges work is that there’s a midpoint pegged to market value and locale, and based on that the minimum salary for someone in that position is 80% of the midpoint, while the maximum is 120% of the midpoint. Our official policy says that the low end of the range will be paid to someone with entry-level skills and experience, most employees who have demonstrated competency in their roles should be near the midpoint, and exceptional or highly experienced employees may make up to the maximum of the range.

    I had to fight. like. hell. to get my position properly priced and my salary adjusted, since I was originally brought on as a temp but my position got converted to regular (and had grown significantly in terms of duties and responsibilities). As in, I had to do my own market research, bring that in, and flat out tell my grandboss that I was looking elsewhere after having asked about the pricing for my job every 6-8 weeks for over a year. They finally priced it and I was given an adjustment that brought me to a whopping 82% of the newly established midpoint for my role. Which I wasn’t pleased with, but I just took the victory of at least getting that much of an adjustment.

    That was November 2015. In November 2016, after my role had continued to grow and I’d played a major part in averting multiple big crises and dealing with some far-reaching issues, I sat down with my boss and grandboss and requested an adjustment to bring me closer to the midpoint for my range, citing that I now have 3 years of experience in my (junior level, requiring only 1 year of experience) role, a professional certification, and reminding them of the accomplishments I’ve had in this role. They both seemed receptive, though they reminded me that any increase would have to be approved by great-grandboss. Grandboss said he would bundle that request in with the end of year merit increase conversations. Okay, cool.

    Well, this week the news came back. I got a 3% standard merit increase. That’s it. My request for adjustment wasn’t even addressed in the meeting with my boss, until *I* brought it up (in a “so, I’m guessing this means I’m not getting the salary adjustment we discussed?” kind of way). I’m really frustrated, to the point of considering looking for other jobs. I am, I know this sounds like I’m bragging but both boss and grandboss have literally described me as a “rockstar”, I’ve taken the initiative to upgrade my skills so I can do things nobody else would have even thought of as solutions to various problems because they don’t know how to do it, my grandboss literally comes to me with new Big Problems by saying “Hey, we need Jadelyn to save the day again!”, and yet great-grandboss can’t see clear to allow me to be paid even close to the MIDPOINT of my range, much less above that. Do I not even count as “competent” enough to get paid appropriately, that after 3 years and a professional certification (and I’m graduating with my degree in May) I am still considered “entry level” for salary purposes? Makes me want to stop doing all the rockstar shit I currently do and just limit myself to being the admin they insist on paying me to be. Except that would mean giving up the fun parts of my job, which would make me more miserable, so…nah.

    The only problem is I genuinely like my job. I love the organization, I work with and for great people, it’s super convenient commute-wise, I really don’t want to leave. If they would just freaking PAY ME DECENTLY, I’d be completely and perfectly happy with my job! But it feels like everything given is only given super grudgingly, after months and months of struggle and trying to pin people down on things, and it’s incredibly demoralizing.

    How do I express this to my boss and/or grandboss without coming off whiny or being dismissed as an entitled millennial?

    1. Manders*

      Ugh, that’s awful.

      Unfortunately, the system they’ve set up right now is working perfectly for them. You’ve already made it very clear that you’re being underpaid. I think the only way to get the salary you deserve at this point is to switch to a different company that doesn’t use this weird pay scale.

      Just as a general observation, in some industries, making sure you’re paid what your worth as you gain experience seems to require moving to a new company every few years. I don’t know exactly why this is, but some companies will pay a lot of money to get a new person in but won’t give merit raises.

    2. TCO*

      It doesn’t seem like this company has any inclination to pay you decently enough to retain you. The pattern is pretty clear. You might have to leave (and perhaps decide that higher pay might be worth tradeoffs in commute, etc.).

    3. neverjaunty*

      You already expressed it, with data, high performance and data. THEY KNOW. They don’t care. After all, they are getting a rockstar at a bargain price.

      You have all the information you need to know nothing will change about your compensation. Start job-hunting.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Thank you guys – I think maybe I needed to hear it bluntly from someone other than my partner (who is Very Annoyed with them for all this). Time to start looking, then.

    4. NW Mossy*

      The structure of your org’s approach is quite similar to that at mine, and I can say a little bit about what this looks like from the manager side of the table.

      The big takeaway point: as a manager of individual contributors only, I am not a budget manager. My boss isn’t either; it’s the grandboss’s area. Therefore, my directs are three levels removed from the person who manages the budget for their pay (me, my boss, and my grandboss). Even then, my grandboss manages her area’s budget but doesn’t have autonomy to decide how big her slice of pie is relative to her peers – that goes to her boss (greatgrandboss to me; greatgreatgrandboss to my directs).

      What does this mean for you? You are really far removed from the person who will ultimately make the yea-or-nay call on this. You can influence your boss, and perhaps your grandboss, but the person you need is two steps up from them. Unless your grandboss is willing to pick up your banner and spend the significant political capital required to carry the day, it’s not gonna happen. If your grandboss’s org is bigger than 100 people (probable, given the rigidity of your compensation structure), it’s really hard to make the case that she should fight for you and you alone out of all those people. Realistically speaking, she’s only going to make a case like that once every couple of years, so you have to be head and shoulders above the other 99+ people in her org right now and have the perfect timing for her to not have other priorities she needs to push for (say, IT budget, more headcount, etc.) in the next couple of years.

      To you, you’re putting everything into getting their attention. It’s a huge thing. But from the point of view of your grandboss on up, you’re literally one person in the crowd of their larger organization, many of whom are competing for time, money, and attention too. It’s not personal; they just have hundreds of people who report up through them and can’t give deep attention to each and every one of those people. Outside of certain high-impact individual contributor roles like sales (where you might be solely responsible for making the company millions), it’s almost impossible to get noticed. It sucks, but that’s reality at a big company.

      So what do you do if you want to get paid more but stay with your company? Put your energy into advancing a role in the next compensation tier. It’s actually faster to get promoted than to up the budget for an existing role, and you’ll get more support from your boss and grandboss for that because it’s less heavy lifting for them. Counter-intuitive, but the reality at many big companies.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Thank you for that perspective! Seriously, thank you so much for taking the time to write all that out.

        For context, I’m part of a small team (5 people) within a mid-sized company (about 260 employees right now). My grandboss is the VP of HR, but only has 2 direct reports, one of whom is my manager, and she has 3 direct reports including me. We’re a tiny, close-knit little group.

        Grandboss reports directly to the president of the company, which is a little unusual, as most of our VPs report to Senior VPs, who report to the president. Great-grandboss, then, is the final say on pretty much everything. So I don’t think I’m lost in a sea of faces as far as grandboss goes, but great-grandboss, absolutely, because he’s looking at the entire organization.

        There’s definitely some Stuff at play here too, as far as grandboss’s political capital for salary budgeting, so in that way it does make sense. Great-grandboss doesn’t work closely enough with me to know everything I do, so it relies on grandboss, who’s busy expending that political capital on the Stuff that’s going on.

        Funnily enough, re moving up to a new role…our Senior HRIS Analyst (not part of my team, but a closely related HR team based in our East Coast division – we’ve got a lot of cross-pollination between the two teams who are considered part of the same department) just resigned. We’ve been in the midst of a really ugly system conversion, and she was a new role who was supposed to get us through this, but it…didn’t work the way they expected. But as soon as we heard yesterday, my boss came to talk to me and encouraged me in the strongest possible terms to apply for that position if they decide they want to keep that role around.

        I double-checked it with grandboss today when he got in, and he said that I might come out a bit short on the number of years seniority that they might be looking for, but that he agrees with my boss that I absolutely could handle that role and excel in it, and if they do post it, I should definitely apply. So…that’s a possibility.

        1. NW Mossy*

          Sure – glad you found it useful!

          Definitely apply for that senior job if and when it comes open. Even if you don’t end up getting it, it’s very important signalling behavior that you want to move up, and that counts for a lot. It’s more common than you think that people make noise about wanting to move up but then don’t actually apply for positions when they come open. If you put action behind those words, people take your ambitions more seriously.

          Also, it can serve the function of “putting your name on the list.” It’s so common in my org that a runner-up for a given promotion will often snag the next one that comes open because people remember their past interest and seek them out. It’s a big asset to go into applying for a promotion and already be on the hiring manager’s mental list of potential hires for the role.

          1. Jadelyn*

            Agreed re signalling behavior. I do recruiting support as part of my current role, and our procedure is that every internal applicant, no matter how unqualified, is given the courtesy of an interview and a conversation about their long-term aspirations. So maybe they’re unqualified now, but we make sure to put their boss on notice that this person is trying to move up, and they then talk with the person about training to move in the direction they’re trying to go.

        2. neverjaunty*

          That’s an awful lot of “if”.

          It’s true from the organizational side things may look different. However, that is not your problem. Your problem is that your company is giving you back-patting and vague possibilities about the future, not a salary and raise commensurate with what they tell you is your value.

          1. Jadelyn*

            True. It isn’t, strictly speaking, my problem and it doesn’t change that I’m well underpaid for what I’m doing – but looking at it that way helps me feel a little less bitter and resentful about it, which is at least helpful for my mental state!

    5. Not A Morning Person*

      Another POV, I worked at a very large company that had a similar salary structure. It was tough, but the compensation philosophy was that most people had to work for many years to get to the mid-point.The mid-point was considered the top salary for most because it was the market rate for the job. Also, they reasoned that they were able to give slightly larger increases early on because ee’s were below the mid-point of that job. And to make a salary above the midpoint was only for a very small percentage of employees who had been there for years and had made a reputation for being rock-stars at their role.
      In your case, your bosses may not want to bring you to close to the mid-point in one raise, but they should have done better than 3%! Unless the job is so wonderful, start looking for a new job. They have given you a taste of what to expect for the rest of your time working for them.

  127. Orange Airways*

    Gender pay discrepancy question here…I tried posting this a minute ago but I don’t think it went through.

    I’m female, and have been working on the team for about 3.5 years. I’ve been a top performer from the get-go, I have received nothing but praise and accolades from my manager and grandboss. I deal with the top accounts, and have many of the highest responsibilities and top priority work on our team. This was my first job out of college, and I have excelled here but am (and always have been) paid significantly lower than market rate. My current salary is just under 5k more/year than what I began at. My performance reviews have all been super positive, but I’m always told, year after year, that pay increases to bring me up to market value are not possible due to budgeting.

    I have a male coworker who has been on my team, same title as me, for the past 2 years. He was previously a contractor for our company for 6 months, but in a different role and team. He came to our company with a couple years of semi-related work experience at another company. His role on our team however, is very small….he deals with no high level accounts, and has in many cases been thought of as dead weight by team members and our team’s manager. I know I perform at a much higher level and am seen as more valuable (manager and I are fairly close, he has told me that he has been frustrated with this team member’s performance from day 1). I recently found out that this person’s starting salary was about 20k/year more than mine. Even if he has not gotten a raise at all in his time here, I’m still currently making ~15k/year less than him….which is a very significant % of my salary.

    So….I’m wondering what my steps would be here. Does this sound like an EEOC situation? I’ve been at the company and on the team longer, I am a better performer in all measurable aspects, I have more responsibility, we have the same title…but am being paid ~15k less in annual salary. The only measurable difference I can assume is that because he had more work experience coming in to the company. But even so, he hasn’t been performing well for the past 2 years and I’m still so far behind him in compensation. I saw a post from Alison addressing what to do if you think there’s a gender pay gap but I’m wondering if anyone here has advice or input on the situation before I begin taking steps to talk with my manager…thanks all. For the record, I’m in California (don’t think this matters though).

    1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      This sure sounds like gender discrimination to me. I don’t have any advice for you, but it does sound like you have a good reason to try to do something about this.

    2. The IT Manager*

      Two people’s salaries is not enough data points to make an EEOC complaint. They can easily give reasons why it is that way, for example you were hired as an entry level employee with no work experience and he was not. There I just explained why he has a higher starting salary and it has nothing to do with gender. Did you negotiate starting salary? (As an entry level employee you didn’t have much leverage) Did he? (as a known quantity, he did have more justification). Have you negotiated raises along the way or just accepted what was offered? Are you making a case for a raise to your boss?

      I think for this complaint to have merit you have to show systematic discrimination across the board due to gender.

      1. The IT Manager*

        What you need to do is talk to your boss and make a case for a raise up to at least market level, if not higher. It’s actually best if you don’t compare you salary to ale co-worker and just say I should make more than him. It’s about market value, fair compensation, and them paying you enough to keep a high performer such as yourself from looking for a job that will pay you more.

      2. BuildMeUp*

        The amount of work experience might factor into it, but whether or not they negotiated starting salary or raises doesn’t justify a pay discrepancy along gender lines, and I don’t think it has to be systemic, either. If she can show that she is being paid substantially less than her male coworker for doing the same work (or in her case, more advanced work), she has grounds for a complaint.

    3. neverjaunty*

      Get hard copies of anything and everything showing your performance and praise from bosses. Then talk to a lawyer for advice. That doesn’t mean you have to complain to the EEOC or sue. It means that you can get a knowledgeable opinion on what gender discrimination looks like, the language to use with your boss and HR to get your compensation on track, and steps you can take if your work blows you off or worse, if you start getting retaliation for raising the issue. If your company is reasonable and fair, you will solve this problem without the lawyer ever having to do a thing except quietly whisper into your ear (so to speak).

      Do not assume that a gender gap is Ok because “he got paid more before” or “maybe he negotiated”. It is a choice for an employer to scale pay to previous salary or to allow negotiation to put salary into a given range and these things do not magically make it all right to pay underperforming dudes more.

      In CA you can contact your county bar association for a free or low cost referral. The California Employment Lawyers’ Association (CELA) is also a good resource.

  128. mrs__peel*

    I could use some guidance from folks who work in health care administration (e.g., in hospitals or doctors’ offices), as I’m looking to make a career change in that direction.

    For background, I’m an attorney who’s been working for government contractors in the health care sector for 10+ years. (Primarily in Medicare administrative law and reimbursement). A large part of my job involves reading through medical records, and (for a layperson) I have a pretty good grasp of medical terminology, procedure and diagnosis codes, etc. I’m not an IT genius, but I believe I could quickly familiarize myself with various electronic medical records systems.

    I haven’t worked for a hospital or doctors’ office before, but am looking to move in that direction for steadier work (and also because I’ve been finding medicine increasingly interesting over the years). Since my current employer relies on government contracts, we go through periods of bidding and layoffs every few years, and it’s rather nerve-wracking.

    I’m currently waiting to hear if my job is being eliminated, so I’m looking into all possibilities– for instance, coding, health information technology, medical receptionist work, etc.

    What’s the best way for someone with my background to break into these kinds of field? Do you feel that further training or education (e.g., coding certifications or Masters in Health Systems Administration) would be financially worthwhile, especially for someone who already has considerable student loans? Thanks very much for any advice.

    1. Nan*

      Hmmm….I work in Medical Revenue Cycle for the last 8 1/2 years and just got my BA in Healthcare Leadership last December and start my Masters in Health Admin in May. But I have the “in” as my company works with most of the hospitals in the US. If you already have a law degree and want to use that in the medical field, why not a few additional class for a Masters in Jurisprudence in health law. I know John Marshall has the classes, even online, I think, as do other law schools. I was waffling which way to go.

      They also almost always need someone to defend their billing/collections/malpractice issues as well. Plus, regulatory reviews. Health law changes about every 10 seconds it seems, so do insurance contracts, reimbursement methods, and CMS rules. I also think the next couple of years are going to see a lot of changes in our system, especially with the ACA up for repeal and an unknown replacement. A change in law may change the EMR requirements, so an MA in HSA might be a bad idea, either. Or look, at getting into an EMR company like Epic, Cerner, or GE, if that’s what floats your boat.

      Healthcare is always hiring, and I think you’d be able to marry both lawyering and helping people in the health world. I think the possibilities are endless.

    2. Red Reader*

      I’m in RCS management for a large academic health system, and my suggestion would be to look into compliance or auditing. The American Academy of Professional Coders offers certifications in both that can be prepped for via self-study. (AHIMA has them as well, but requires you to go through formal educational programs at the 2 or 4 year degree level to sit most of their cert exams.) If you’re interested in healthcare IT, though, there are definitely educational programs for healthcare information management at the associates, bachelor’s and masters level.

      And I feel pretty safe in saying that a certified RHIA (4-year HIM degree with cert exam) with ten years of medicare legal experience could pretty much write their own ticket in all the hospitals I’ve worked in.

  129. Can't Sit Still*

    I had two follow up phone interviews this week.

    Phone interview #1: The recruiter gave me the heads up that the hiring manager was very choosy and that the position had been open before. I found out while talking to the HM that the position had been open several times since he’s been there, and he’s only been there 10 months. After talking to him, both the work and the culture didn’t seem like a good fit for me. They re-posted the position the day after my phone interview and I feel like I dodged a bullet.

    Phone interview #2: I had an interview with the person whose role is being divided into 2 positions, and will be training the new person. I really enjoyed talking to her and the position seems like a good fit. However, I was interviewing with 2 direct competitors for very similar roles and was afraid I would confuse them in the interview. And I did, and was mortified, but they still want me to come in for the day long marathon interview, once they can get everyone’s schedules aligned. I’m going to go into the interview thinking that I’m filler and hoping that I can knock their socks off anyway.

  130. krysb*

    Has anyone here attended the Harvard Extension School to get further certifications or degrees? I’m highly contemplating doing so (depending on whether or not I can afford to pay for the initial three classes out-of-pocket). I’m just wondering if anyone has experience with the program and can provide any personal experience information.

    1. orchidsandtea*

      Yes! I took two classes, a graduate-level marketing course and a Shakespeare class, and really enjoyed it. I felt like I got my money’s worth. I was genuinely challenged and I learned quite a lot.

      But of course, I took two classes, and you have to take three to be in the program. I’d have had to take quite a few to finish my degree. I’d gladly go back and take more. But it’s costly.

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I can supply second hand information – I have 3 colleagues who have degrees from the Extension School (different areas) and all three had nothing but positive experiences.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Can I just pop in here for a moment to say I love your username? Best show, best character, best everything.

    3. krysb*

      Amazing, guys, thank you for the responses. I’m 32 and will finally be finishing my B.S. this summer (honestly, I’ve done very well for myself, even without the degree). In a way, I’m sick of school, but I think this would be a great opportunity and a safer way to do graduate school. I’m glad that others have benefited from this program. I hope this translates into pushing my career even further.

      (I’m not going to lie, if I do this and complete the program, I may be very into myself for a little while afterwards because I’ll be able to say I graduated from a Harvard masters program.)

  131. SeekingBetter*

    It looks like getting a volunteer gig is WAY easier for me than trying to get a paid job. Throughout my years of volunteering, all of the nonprofits said “yes” whenever I wanted to apply my skills to help them out. Has anyone here experienced something similar?

    1. Chaordic One*

      Yes, that’s certainly been my experience. I don’t know what to make of it. It’s certainly disappointing and frustrating.

  132. procrastination fail!*

    Crap! Crap crap crap!

    I’m co-writing a grant with some colleagues. It’s due on Monday. We divided the narrative text, and I asked everyone to make sure their portion was in a final format so I could just paste everything together. One colleague finished her section a month ago and asked me if it was okay. I was crushed under other projects so I admitted I hadn’t had a chance to look at it but I’m sure it was fine. She’s a strong writer so I had no reason to think otherwise. Except I just looked at it (procrastination!) and it’s not fine. The ideas are fine, but it’s written like notes to use when writing the final draft, lots of bullet points and dashes and (find statistic here). I’m annoyed with her for giving me a rough draft (I checked, I did put in writing that it should be in final format), but know I have to temper my annoyance because if I hadn’t procrastinated, if I’d looked at her submission earlier, I would’ve had time to ask her to re-do it. Crap.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Oh no; I am sorry to hear that.
      Is there any reason to think colleague sent you a draft by accident?

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I would ask that too–maybe she sent the wrong file?
        If not, I’d see if she will work with you on finishing it. She’s the one who dropped the ball, not you.

    2. fposte*

      Ugh. I can totally see me doing this too. Is there enough information that you can turn it into what you need just with prose, or do you actually have to dig up the “find statistic” kind of info?

  133. Mouse*

    I just got my first full time job! It’s a publishing internship and I start in early February. What are your best tips for making a great first impression? Things to bring, or ask, or wear, or just things I should know? The office has a very casual dress code (jeans are okay!) so I’m planning on wearing a simple casual dress with a cardigan and tights. I’m so nervous!

    1. Sarah*

      As someone who has had an internship in publishing (with a smaller house, though), I’d say just to volunteer for everything. Get as much exposure to the different departments as you can–you might find something you like better or are more interested in than what you thought you came in to do; talk to the people who work there and get to know them so they will give you advice; get to know the other interns, because they might turn into references when you all start getting jobs–and take all the free books the company may give you : P

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      Congratulations!

      I’ve really been impressed with interns who ask for clarification when they need it, take notes (even if it’s just noting the name of the process they just learned and what it does), and check in every few weeks (“Hi–I just wanted to check in and see how you think I’m doing/the internship is going, and if there’s anything I could be doing better.”)

      Just about everyone I know in book publishing has been an intern, and so there’s no reason to feel meek/shy/unsure. It’s a *lot* easier to mentor someone who is eager to learn, even if it means making a mistake, than someone who is afraid of saying/doing/being the wrong thing.

      If you have any downtime, try perusing the company’s intranet, look up publishing history on wikipedia, study company training manuals, or read through books published by that company. You can also ask if your mentor/hiring manager can set up informational interviews with other roles you may be interested in (though I’d wait to request that until midway through your internship period).

      Good luck!

  134. Koko*

    How soon can I expect a mid-level new hire to take full ownership of her role?

    I am managing someone for the first time in about five years. She was brought on just after Labor Day for a mid-level role. Lately I’ve found myself wondering if I should be talking to her about taking more ownership and exercising more discretion in her role, or if it’s still a bit early to expect that of her.

    One example is that she still routes all her questions through me instead of going directly to the person who has the information – like asking me for a dial-in number for a meeting that I’m just another participant in instead of contacting the meeting leader to ask for it, or email me asking what things she should get done before her vacation instead of emailing our whole (small) team to ask for requests to be submitted before her vacation. Each time, I’ve directed her to ask the appropriate person/email the whole time, but it hasn’t yet “stuck” and I’m not sure if I should be having the pattern conversation yet or if she’s still new enough that I should keep redirecting her a few more times before expecting her to have internalized it.

    Another example is reconfirming information she’s already been given when there’s no apparent reason that I can see why anything would have changed. We’ll be told on Monday that every teapot we make this week should get a stamp on the bottom of it. Then on Thursday I’ll tell her, “The teapot pickup is coming early tomorrow, so please make sure tomorrow’s shipment ready to go by noon,” and she’ll ask, “Great, and I should stamp the bottom of them, right?” Here, I’m not sure if I should just wait and see if this behavior disappears once she’s been here longer and is more confident in her role, or if I should have a pattern conversation (not even sure how I would phrase this one – there’s no need to reconfirm instructions unless you hear they might have changed? work more independently?), or if maybe I should just accept this as part of her working style (she’s definitely more detail-oriented than me, the urge to reconfirm could be a product of that and is maybe not worth trying to change?).

    Finally, the third type of example is a reluctance for her to use her own judgment or exercise discretion. These are things I absolutely expected her to bring to me when she was onboarding and still learning the job, but now find myself more and more thinking that she could have and should have handled these on her own. She’ll be running something through a QC checklist and when she finds a problem, she brings it to me to ask how to resolve it. Often the same problem, or variants of it, crops up repeatedly. Each time I give her the same response to how to solve it, and I’m wondering if I need to explicitly tell her, “I trust you to resolve these problems to the best of your ability and only bring them to me if you’re stumped or have never encountered this problem before,” or if I’m rushing things and should give her another month or two of running things by me before expecting her to do that.

    These are all things I would certainly be expecting her to do by the time she’s 9 or 12 months into the job, but at 4 months in I’m just not sure. I don’t want to push her too far too fast if she’s not feeling confident enough yet, but I also don’t want to coddle her and prevent her from developing that confidence by not more explicitly pushing her to develop it. I’ve been in my role for 5 years so it’s been long enough that I don’t really remember how long it took me to reach that point – certainly by the end of my first year, but I’m not sure exactly when along the way I got there.

    1. Sunflower*

      So I’m in my first job where I can’t just email anyone any question. Some things have to go through my boss first. I’m like 14 months into my job and I still struggle with ‘can I go right to this person or should I ask my boss first’. I didn’t know until my first review which was about 10 months into my job that my boss wanted me to take more initiative.

      So for the first example, what you’re doing is good but it might be good to go with a blanket statement of ‘In general, you can go right to X person for questions about X.’ Maybe by saying ‘In general’ she’ll understand that what you’re saying applies across the board and not on that specific basis.

      The third example I would say it’s definitely okay to let her know that you trust her to resolve these things on her own.

      4 months is a time frame where it’s not a red flag that she isn’t doing this stuff but it’s also okay for you to start giving more specific feedback. I think it’s okay for you to say ‘I know we’re only at 4 months in but I want to talk to you about what I envision you doing in the future’ It might also help to ask her how she’s feeling. Maybe she wants to do all of the above but she isn’t sure if you’re confident in her abilities at only 4 months in. Open communication is really the key here.

      1. Future Analyst*

        Yes, agreed with your last point. Koko, I think it may actually be helpful for you to give her a list of things you would expect her to be able to handle on her own by the 9th month, so that a) she’s clear on the direction she should be heading, and she can start looking at things that she can take ownership on before reaching the 9 month mark, and b) you have a clear idea of what your expectations are, so that if things are not progressing at the pace they should be, you have something to reference. If worst comes to worst, you then also have something to point to if she’s not progressing, or simply not working out in the role– “we would expect someone in your role for 9 months to be able to handle x, y, and z on their own, and it doesn’t appear that you’re taking on that responsibility. If we don’t see significant progress in this arena in the next month, then I think we should talk about transitioning you out of this role” (or whatever).

        1. Kerr*

          +1 to giving her a timeline of what you expect, plus an expression of your confidence that she can take ownership.

          Not mid-level, but I see myself in your employee’s description. In my current job, for what felt like a long time (even to me), I would “reconfirm” much like she is doing. Partly because I was still getting a handle on all the processes, partly because I’m detail-oriented, but also because it wasn’t clear what I *should* be taking complete ownership of. Plus not being sure if my boss had confidence in my judgment calls.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It sounds to me like she’s simply trying to find her footing and it might be time to sit down, work out your goals for her, and discuss them with her. I’ve often asked other meeting participants for dial-in info if I don’t have it, that sounds pretty normal to me. As far as asking you what she needs to get done before vacation, it sounds like you’re her manager– it’s perfectly normal (in fact, in most places it’s preferred) to discuss that type of thing with your manager. The “reconfirming” thing is something I do a lot, to make sure I have the instructions absolutely clearly in my own head before I proceed. There’s a lot of information going around when someone is in a new position, and I think you’re actually better off with someone who confirms like that than someone who gets confused and doesn’t ask. And yes, I DO think it would behoove you– and her– to explicitly tell her how you want her to resolve QC problems. It sounds like she was never given clear instructions on how that was supposed to go.

      I understand that you don’t want to coddle her, nor do you want to push her, but if your workplace has specific procedures and you have a specific style, you do need to state it explicitly. I’ve told people in the past that I want them to figure it out, make mistakes, try to fix them, then come to me if they get stumped. There’s no harm in being clear.

      I have been in my current role for just under two months. It’s a new area of my industry and a brand-new role. My boss put together a list of tasks and a timeline for when he expects me to have mastered or become familiar with them. He even ran it by some colleagues to make sure his expectations were realistic and reasonable. I’m relatively experienced in my career, but this is a new place, new norms, new things to learn. My boss has very clear ideas of what he wants, and he shares them, and it is such a relief. If you can do something similar for her, it might help both of you gain confidence as you navigate the relationship.

      1. Koko*

        Ah, I love that idea of laying out a timetable for her. I have had some ideas kicking around in my head from time to time that at some vague point in the future it’d be nice to get her doing X or Y, but never thought to actually lay out a time table for everything. We have our org-wide performance reviews in Q1 so this will actually be the perfect opportunity to include these in her 2017 goals.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          Most places I’ve worked have had a formal three-month review, separated from the org-wide review cycle, and I’ve found them to be really effective. Sitting down and laying it all out helps! And I don’t know about you, but I often “hope” someone will take something on, but in a formal meeting, I actually say it out loud, which works a lot better….

          1. Lord of the Ringbinders*

            We have three and six month ones with a list of objectives for each. I was bemused after years of self employment, but it’s been great as I know what’s expected and can show I’m meeting it.

        2. Lord of the Ringbinders*

          I’ve been known to do the reconfirming thing as a way of showing I listened to the info.

    3. overeducated*

      Talk to her. I am 5 months into a job with very strong vertical orientation, and I have to run basically everything through my boss, as he does to his. It has been a huge adjustment for me and I feel like I don’t have a great sense of where it is appropriate to take ownership and where I need to sit back and wait for approval or instruction. More specific guidance on navigating this in your workplace could be really helpful to your employee.

      Maybe don’t phrase it as “taking ownership” though, say you trust her and want to talk about ways to streamline communication.

      1. Koko*

        Thank you for this reminder. After five years here it’s easy to lose sight of what aspects of our culture here are particular to us vs what aspects are more universal.

        Looking back, I can remember telling a lot of friends towards the end of my first year about how cool it was that I was allowed to make my own judgment calls, that I got to work directly with a dozen people who all trusted my judgment as a subject matter expert, that I could generate my own work and tackle projects directly with co-workers and didn’t depend on my boss as a gatekeeper for all my work…now I’ve been here so long that I’m realizing I’ve come to take all of that for granted and forget how special it is!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          In some companies she would be totally appropriate. I think if you just help her figure out how much room she has, things will go better. Honestly, if this is your worst complaint she is probably doing pretty well. Try reframing it as “sincerely trying to do a great job” and see how this looks to you.

    4. Someone*

      Yes, lay out your expectations, and ask her what she needs to make this happens. One thing that might cause or contribute to this would be if a previous boxx/job was super-toxic and micro-managing, so that now she is gunshy.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This occurred to me as well. I had this problem when I started at Exjob–my manager had to encourage me to handle stuff on my own because I wasn’t used to doing it. It was partly due to micromanaging employers and partly because in prior roles, I didn’t have as much freedom to make decisions and manage my own time. If she’s new to this level, that could be part of the issue.

  135. Anonymous Pterodactyl*

    Back in August or September, there was a thread about work attire for women – I think it may have been in one of the open threads? There were several links posted to places that make comfortable shoes. I remember at least one of them offered women’s shoes that were styled like men’s flat dress shoes, but I cannot for the life of me find that thread – or the companies – again. Does anyone else remember it, or have a link?

  136. TotesMaGoats*

    I have to share the good news!!!! I GOT THE JOB!

    This is seriously the fastest I’ve ever seen higher ed move in a hiring process.
    Monday-Schedule phone interview
    Thursday-Phone interview
    Friday-Schedule face to face interview
    Wednesday-Face to face interview
    Friday-They checked all my references
    Monday night-email to schedule a phone call from the biggest big boss
    Tuesday morning-Job offered
    Tuesday lunch-resigned

    I’m not giving a full two weeks but since I’ve been planning this since October and I’ve crafted a 7 page document to cover everything, there really isn’t anything to transition. My boss was so surprised. Jump in her chair surprised. But she’d never taken the time to really get to know me or stay in touch with me, due to the level of her role and I don’t blame her much for that. Most other people are not surprised at all and wish me well. Everyone who knows me know that I need to detox from this place. When you are crying on the way to work, crying at work and wondering if you really can afford to just quit without something lined up, you’ve got to stop.

    WAY better salary and benefits. Shorter commute. Saving money with a parking garage instead of tolls. And I’ve gotten unsolicited information that the warm and fuzzies I got from everyone are really true. They really are that great.

    Thank you Alison for all the great advice you post and the group support as well.

  137. A*

    I just had a really odd call with a recruiter, and I’m still kind of in shock by her comments.

    A few months ago this recruiter reached out to me about a temp/contract position at a pretty cool company that is definitely on my list of places I’d like to work. Now, I’m currently on a contract that has 1 year left– and I’m pretty happy with it and it has good pay– but as a temp I’m always having to search to get the next position lined up, so I said I was interested. So she started to set me up for a few interviews but every time they were super last minute– as in, same day last minute. Since I’m currently working full time, I told her I needed more notice and that I couldn’t leave my current job in the middle of the day. Then I found out they were offering less per hour than my current contract. I asked if they could meet my current pay but they said no, so I said I was no longer interested. Keep in mind they never actually scheduled and confirmed the interview, this was all just back and forth asking me if I could make it.

    Well fast forward to 2 weeks ago, she contacted me again and said they could offer more (but still not able to match my current pay). I said I was interested and asked to set up the interview, but stressed that I really need at least a full days notice. But of course that didn’t work and she kept scheduling things for the same day. Today I found out that I got a small raise (yay!), so I called her to say that their salary again wasn’t going to work, and that since I was guaranteed this salary for another year, it didn’t make sense to leave. I asked her to get in touch with me at the end of the year when my contract ends to let me know if she has positions available.

    Things got ugly from there… she basically told me that I was super unprofessional for not being available to interview, that her reputation with the client company was at risk and they were mad, and that she would never consider me again for any of her open positions. Honestly I’m not sure what I should have done differently. I really was interested in the position and want to work there some day. I thought I was doing the right thing by not interviewing if I wasn’t fully committed. I didn’t want to waste their time if I knew the salary wasn’t going to work.

      1. A*

        Normally I would agree, but its a bit different in this case because she is with a staffing company, not the company I’d be working with. I still want to work for the company she is recruiting for, and right now she’s the only one staffing for them (for this role in my small field). But who knows… maybe things will change in a few months.

        2. Observer*

          If her reputation with the company is really at issue, then maybe she won’t be their main staffing person anymore.

          And, from what you describe, it’s no wonder that her reputation is at stake. If she really thought that same day in person appointments are reasonable, then she’s really is bad at her job. So, it’s not much loss for you to not work with her – she’s not going to be doing you much good.

    2. Sadsack*

      I wouldn’t even respond. She was in the wrong. Why in the world would they expect you to be able to drop everything and interview with less than a day’s notice, and multiple times at that? If this was really their request each time, you may want to rethink your desire to work there. At least don’t expect much consideration from them as an employee when they are so unreasonable before even having an interview.

        1. A*

          I’ve seen it before– its not all that uncommon in the temp/contracting world. Sometimes the entire process from initial contact to offer can take less than a week. Its crazy! Personally I need more time to prepare and think through things, especially when it involves leaving a current position, since I have anxiety and I really need extra time to mentally prepare for these things. That being said, if a candidate requests a bit of extra time, it really shouldn’t be a deal breaker. Usually they are happy to accommodate that request.

  138. Junior Dev*

    I’ve been at my new job a little over a month. I’d like to check in with my boss on how I’m doing but he always seems really busy and stressed out; he also doesn’t really directly oversee my work. How should I approach this?

    1. fposte*

      Ask him for a meeting! Don’t think of it as a “Tell me how I’m doing” meeting, but as an “I’ve done this, this, and this; my future goals are this, this, and this. Are those about what you are expecting for the position, and are there areas you think I could improve?” If there’s a team lead or somebody who does directly oversee your work, you could add “And is there an approach you’d recommend I’d take to getting similar information from Lavinia, since she sees my work more closely?” (If you’re just roaming unsupervised much of the time, just ask your actual boss and make the best of it.)

  139. peachie*

    Ugh, I am filled with anxiety and dread–I haven’t heard anything from the job I’m applying for, and I had the final final “how much money do you want?” 10 minute phone call a week ago now. I know there’s nothing to be done, but I had such a good feeling about this (not to mention really, really wanting the role) and now I’m feeling like it’s probably not gonna happen. :/

    1. Someone*

      Or they’re trying to get you the money you asked for, and they’re having to pull strings. I mean, I’m all in favor of “forget about this and move on”, but remember their time frame is different from yours.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Or they may have to run and put out a few unrelated fires then come back to this.

        So far all we can conclude is that they are really thinking about this and working on it. Hold a positive thought because it hurts too much to hold a negative thought.

  140. Mel*

    I have a question about answering the ‘Where do you see yourself in 5 years?’ Ideally, in a few years I would like to try for a PhD. I interviewed this week for a job that was absolutely perfect for what I’m looking for right now, and would be excellent experience to include in a PhD application. I was asked the dreaded 5-year question, and I did say that I saw the role I was interviewing for as perfect for this point in my career right now because I’d like to use the experience for applying to a PhD program several years down the road.
    Question: Did I just shoot myself in the foot? I’m stupidly honest, and tried to make it sound as good as possible. I know the previous person in the role was there only for 9 months, so the ‘several years’ I allude to is much longer than that.
    (Of course, I might just be freaking out, because one of the 7 interviewers I sent a thank-you email to responded with ‘good luck on your job search,’ which sent me on a tail spin, although a search of AAM leads me to believe the interviewer was just being polite and not hinting that I won’t get the job.)

    1. Ms. Meow*

      You’re basically saying “I’m using the job purely as a stepping-stone for my own advancement” and from my experience that doesn’t go over well. You’re also saying that you’re only willing to commit a couple of years, and they may be looking for someone for longer term employment. I would recommend framing it a “moving upwards in my chosen career path after gaining skills and experience” kind of way. They don’t need to know that you mean going back to grad school.

  141. Joey doesn't share food!*

    Today my boss asked me to take on an extra project at short notice. I said I would have loved to but will have to say no as I’m too stacked with other stuff (that can’t be reassigned) and really won’t have time. She said no problem, she doesn’t want me to feel swamped and there will be other opportunities.

    Brilliant thing 1: I recognised my own limits and said no instead of trying to do everything until I burn out.

    Brilliant thing 2: I finally have a manager who doesn’t say: well you’ll just have to make time.

  142. BRR*

    When asking for a raise, do people usually ask for a percentage or dollar amount? My performance review is coming up and I’ve kicked ass this year. My manager is constantly telling me how awesome I am doing. In addition, I’m going from supporting two and a half people to five and a half people. That’s at the top end the number of people I should be supporting according to best practices (and really it should be lower since I am creating a new program vs. running an established program).

    I want to ask for a raise but am not sure how to do it? I know the lay out my accomplishments and ask to discuss my compensation but am not sure if I name a percentage or a dollar amount. I also want more work from home days. Because I have a super longer commute I would be happy with only more WFH days (that would leave me with more money since my daily trip is ~$30 but I am not going to bring that up because my commuting cost isn’t part of my compensation package). Is it too much to ask for both? For what it’s worth I don’t think my employer is in a position to give raises this year.

    1. CAA*

      People have asked me for raises maybe 5 or 6 times in my career. Usually they just give a dollar amount or range. Sometimes they say “I’d like 5%, that’s $x” or something like that.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe offer two options x%/x$ OR y%/y$ plus whatever number of WFH days per week/month.

  143. Libretta*

    My team (10 people) has Monday meetings and a couple of times a couple of people have coincidentally worn similar outfits. Now they want us all to wear matching outfits every Monday. There is a calendar reminder. The boss is doing it. I do not even own pants the color they want me to wear and I am getting (gently) called out on it. I object to this, for reasons I am having trouble articulating without sounding condescending. I want to push back without putting them down for doing it. Last time I was like, “I wore pants – isn’t that enough?” and we moved on, but since it is on the calendar it is not going away any time soon. Suggestions?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      This is…bizarre. I would maybe try to participate on weeks when I already owned the clothing being planned, but in no way would I go out and purchase clothing for this silly thing.

      As for what to say, I would probably try to stick with lighthearted self-directed jabs, “Oh I didn’t own anything that matched the theme!” or “It was hard enough getting out the door this morning in my regular clothing!”

    2. Future Analyst*

      What? This is bizarre. Tell the coordinator, “I’d rather not participate at this time. I generally just want to wear whatever’s clean. Thanks for thinking of me, though,” and remove it from your calendar.

      Just to reiterate, THEY are being weird, not you.

    3. Newby*

      Could you point out that you would have to buy new clothes to do this? Maybe suggest that instead you can all wear a company shirt on Monday or something similar where the company is at least providing the required clothing and it is the same every week?

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Seriously? If you want to turn this into a letter to me, I’d love to do a stand-alone post on it. Ideally you’d include details like what type of work you do, what their stated reason is for this, etc. I want details!

      1. Libretta*

        Alison I am honored that this is weird enough to be interesting. I don’t think I could convince them that I am breezily disapproving if I had a featured letter to you. It is junior staff who are pushing it – my boss is enjoying it but not enforcing it (and I can’t imagine her doing so). It is a great group who get along very well – one person is designing a team T-shirt that he wants us to all wear to surprise the boss at this meeting (boss’ name would be featured as we are her team). It is meant to be fun, just a couple of people who are taking it seriously and want 100% participation.

    6. animaniactoo*

      Smile and say “I’m glad you guys are having fun with it, it’s just not my thing. I hope you won’t hold it against me!” It’s often really hard to push back against somebody who is a cheerful dissenter “Yup, I’m a party pooper!” “Aw c’mon” “But I like that about me!” twinkling eyes, bit of a laugh, etc.

      (or wait to see what Alison has to say if you send as a solo submission as per her request above.)

      1. zora*

        This is what I was going to say. Fake like you are playing along and think it’s funny, but just can’t do it. “Ha, that is so funny! great idea! But, I don’t have clothes the right color, sorry!” Shrug and walk away. Or change the subject.

        I am so with you though, I feel like the total Grinch in groups that decide they are doing this funny joke, and I am totally cranky about it. But it preserves relationships to pretend you get it and are playing along as much as you can. Fake smiles! You can do it!

      1. Jadelyn*

        I just saw a quote the other day that I adored: “Are you decent?” “Not morally, but I’m wearing pants, if that’s what you’re asking.”

        1. Chaordic One*

          I’m sure I mentioned previously that at my old job younger employees had “Free-Balling Fridays.”

    8. Not So NewReader*

      One time I was told to wear better boots. I pushed back in part by saying that telling me how to spend my own money is really not appropriate.

      I think I would just say, “I will not be able to participate due to my budget that I adhere to. Thanks for trying to include me, though!”

  144. 14 years*

    I want to get into publishing/editing. The problem is that I’m in my 30s and I can’t afford to do an internship. Does anyone know how likely it is for a publisher to hire someone without direct experience? I do editing in my current job but not for books. Thanks, all!

    1. Manders*

      Is it possible for you to freelance as an editor on the side? It’s my understanding that a lot of publishers send work out to freelancers. Plus, there’s a big demand for editors now that more people are self-publishing. There are regional editors’ guilds and organizations that might be able to help you get started.

      The downside is that you’ll have to build your own client base, write and enforcing your own contracts, and deal with all the frustrating income and tax stuff that comes with freelancing. But it could be a way to get your foot in the door.

      (I’ve heard that it’s VERY hard to get a position as an in-house editor at a publishing house if you don’t know the right people. It’s something I wanted to do once, but like you, I couldn’t work unpaid and I didn’t have the right connections. I ended up in marketing instead and I love what I do now; maybe someday I’ll be able to work for a publisher’s marketing department.)

    2. fposte*

      It sounds like you’d be looking at editorial assistant or copy editor jobs, then. For most big publishers, you’re not likely to get copy editor without previous book experience, but editorial assistant is a possibility. They’re not high-paying jobs, to put it mildly, and they’re competitive. You don’t mention anything about region, relocation, etc., but they’ll be clustered around NY and have little flexibility for remote work.

      So I’d have a quick look through Indeed dot com, which I just saw a bunch of publishing ads on from genuine book publishers, to see how you fit what you’re seeing in places that would work for you (and think about the pay, too, since that’s often pretty low).

    3. Isben Takes Tea*

      It is possible to transfer in without an internship, but least likely into an editorial role (except perhaps editorial assistant). What most people refer to as “editing”–copy editing, proofreading, etc.–happens in another department (managing editorial/production) or freelanced out.

      Developmental editing is actually not what editors spend most of their time doing (even though they’d love to)–it’s pursuing books, talking to agents, working with marketing and publicity, negotiating contracts, reviewing budgets, etc. That’s the industry knowledge that you have to work into, either up from an assistant or sideways through marketing or publicity.

      My advice is see if you can get an informational interview with an editor or two and get a more accurate picture of the job and publishing landscape, and plan your search from there. (And there are smaller and mid-size presses throughout the country, so even if you don’t live in NYC, you can find jobs!)

  145. lawyerkate*

    Sharing hiring frustrations. Hiring an assistant. Getting resume after resume with weird graphics and formatting, spelling and grammar mistakes, or people responding to the job post without submitting a resume at all. Also, what terrible person is telling people it’s okay to place work experience out of sequence, use quotation marks around job titles, and worst of all, giving me a wall of text about their objective??

    When I nudged the non-resume-submitters to please submit a resume as the posting required, one person had the nerve to write back and tell me that s/he didn’t have a resume because s/he was a recent graduate of a certificate program and that “in today’s world, resumes aren’t really useful tools anymore.”

    Obviously this person isn’t get a response, as I already have all the information I need – cannot follow simple directions, argues when reminded to follow simple directions, states they will not follow simple directions.

      1. lawyerkate*

        I’m so sorry you’re having trouble! I bet your resume is a plain-text, properly-sequenced, orderly person’s dream!

        1. Bad Candidate*

          Right! Plus I never swear in interviews, I don’t let my boyfriend drink in the lobby, and I’ve never once worn a tube top to an interview!

          1. Rob Lowe can't read*

            Did I miss a letter or comment about a job candidate’s boyfriend drinking in the lobby during the candidate’s interview?!?

            It’s so inconvenient when my job interferes with my ability to read every single comment on this blog. ;)

      2. writelhd*

        same here on behalf of my spouse. It’s so weird to hear about getting floods of terrible submissions when those of us who do the right stuff never hear back so many times :( Just funny the different perspectives.

        Who is telling students that resumes are dead? What do they imagine people are using instead?

    5. Jules the First*

      I hired a telephonist once who we very shortly had to fire because she refused to answer the phone….

    6. Rincat*

      Why are the job titles in quotes?????

      I was once helping a friend with his resume, and his wife kept arguing with me about functional vs chronological formats, and was so adamant that he not put the dates of his jobs on there. I told them it was an absolute must, but she kept insisting that no employer cares about how long you were at a job, they just care what you were doing. Uh….they care a lot! So the husband submitted his resume to a job opening in my department, and guess what…HR kicked it back because it didn’t have dates on it. *facepalm* In case anyone was wondering, the wife did not have much working experience – she went from high school to college and spent about 10 years getting various degrees, and then taught private music lessons, so needless to say she was a little out of touch with business norms.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        “Alison, I keep getting rejections. I can’t figure out what is wrong. Companies don’t to know that resumes are passe. How do I inform them?”

    8. Jadelyn*

      Okay, my jaw literally dropped at that one response. WOW. How do you think it’s a good idea to smugly snark at someone you’re hoping will hire you???

      1. lawyerkate*

        I agree – and thought it was particularly stunning that the person indicated that they not only knew they had not followed directions, but that they had no intention of following directions because the directions were stupid in the first place.

  146. AnonHere*

    My husband is working at a COMPLETELY dysfunctional small-engine sales and repair shop. It’s a very small business – 5 employees, and he is really the only full-time/OT mechanic. There’s a million reasons for him to quit, but he’s hesitant to do so without having anything else lined up first. The owner is well aware that my husband brings in the bulk of the money to the business (I wish I was inflating this…) – my husband was gone for about a week once (without owner’s prior knowledge, and without a return date set) and when he came back the owner’s response was “my prayers have been answered!”
    My husband found out this week (yesterday, actually) that the shop is installing security cameras. Of course he’d be ok with it if it was outside and/or the showroom, but the owner has decided to also install them in the shop where he works. The monitor for the video feed is located right next to the timeclock where anyone can walk by and see it. Nevermind that this is creepy and invasive, but it’s just salt in the wound when the owner is cool installing a $700+ security camera system, but won’t buy shop towels (basically heavy-duty paper towels) because they’re too expensive.
    The owner is not the type of person that my husband could just go up and talk to about this (or anything, really), but we’re both at a loss as to what the next step is. Thoughts???

    1. Manders*

      My thought is that your husband should start job searching now. The owner sucks and isn’t going to change, and the consequence of being a bad boss is that you don’t get to keep (and mistreat) rockstar employees.

      1. animaniactoo*

        co-sign

        I suspect owner may be having some parts loss and thinks it’s the part-timers and hoping to catch them in the act. But the fact that he won’t buy appropriate equipment to begin with is a problem. And since your husband is good enough to bring business in with him, he’s got the ability to move on and should do so.

        1. AnonHere*

          OP here:
          Agreed – him moving on is a no-brainer.
          I guess we’re more concerned with how to deal with the situation between now and when he finds/starts a new job. He’s really uncomfortable being video’d in the first place, and he was able to find that while surveillance is legal, having it visible for every Tom, Dick, and Harry is NOT.

          1. animaniactoo*

            Can he drape a towel or rag over it and if/when the owner says something, “Oh, I was putting it there because it’s illegal to have a security feed monitor out in public like that.” i.e. he’s “trying” to do the owner a favor by hiding the feed for him?

          2. Observer*

            I’m surprised to hear that it’s illegal to have the video feed public. It’s in the shop, not the kitchen, no?

    2. Someone*

      Could he just say, “I am not comfortable being videoed while I work.” It sounds like the owner isn’t going to fire him for it. And then when the owner pushes back, also mention the concern that it might be illegal. But why not say the truth?

    3. neverjaunty*

      “The cameras go, or I do.” Your husband has all the cards here – the owner knows he can’t afford to fire him. Time for your husband to know that too.

  147. Bad Candidate*

    Is timecard fraud a criminal offense here in the US? Background: My husband works in IT, and on Saturday Tim showed up at 5pm, his normal time, to find that Jake wasn’t there. Jake normally wouldn’t be there at that time, but he had to make up some time due to coming in late earlier in the week because of the ice storm that hit the Midwest on MLK Day. Tim didn’t think much of it, but he sent an email to the Help Desk Lead, Amy, asking about it. Mostly I think Tim was concerned that Jake had an emergency or something or that perhaps there was a miscommunication. Monday morning Amy does some digging and finds out that Jake clocked out at 5:30, but he did so from home. After some more digging and getting upper management and even loss prevention involved, it was discovered that Jake has been either leaving early and clocking out at home at his usual time or clocking in from home and then driving to work in the morning a couple of hours after he should have already been there. I’m not entirely certain how no one noticed this before, Jake works Tuesday – Saturday, and during the regular work week people are in the office, and it’s an open environment with no cube walls. I would think that someone not being there, especially if it was a regular thing, would be noticeable, but maybe no one really thought about it or was unduly inconvenienced by it and thus didn’t bring it up? I’m not sure. Anyway, Amy’s boss and the VP of Loss Prevention had a meeting with Jake yesterday that went on for at least 45 minutes, and then Jake was given some time in the room to himself. Eventually VP went in and after that Jake left. Husband was wondering if they were laying it out on the line and there could be charges? Maybe Jake used that time to call a lawyer? It’s not a government job so there’s no theft of taxpayer funds involved, so I’m not sure. I wouldn’t think they’d prosecute someone over this unless it had been going on for years, but Jake has been there only about 10 months. Any thoughts?

    1. Newby*

      Whether or not it is a situation where he could be charged with a crime, he could be sued for the money that was paid to him that he didn’t earn.

    2. Jessesgirl72*

      It’s more likely Jake was being fired than told they were going to file charges against him.

      But maybe loss prevention was brought in for something other than loss of time, when they were investigating him for time theft. It’s not the sort of thing a good manager would disclose to the entire department. In fact, the amount of details you do know is more than I’d expect.

    3. Rat Racer*

      I’m really baffled by this story for two reasons:

      1. Why does a company allow people to clock in and out from home if they do not have a work at home policy? That seems bizarre.

      2. Does your husband have a horse in this race? Is he Tim and Jake’s manager? If not, why and how is he keeping such close tabs on these events as they unfold? Why does he care?

      1. fposte*

        I thought Tim was the husband. So I can understand that he’s interested if one of his cohort is going down, but I think even then you’ve got a point about maybe disengaging here–Jake’ll be fired or he won’t.

      2. Bad Candidate*

        1. People can work from home in certain occasions, but these were days he was logging out from home when he should have been active on the help desk and taking calls.

        2. It’s a really small department, so if you take one card out of the house, the other cards have to bear the weight. The manager is out of the office this week, so it’s mostly being handled by the team lead, who is somewhat new to the role, she’s been going to my husband for advice on how to handle it since he has more experience. (Work and managerial)

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’d guess that they left him alone either because (a) they had to go take care of something (either related or unrelated or (b) Jake was getting emotional and they gave him time to compose himself. If he wants to call a lawyer, he’d be doing that on his own time. (But this is typically not a criminal issue.)

  149. overeducated*

    Last week I posted about the big boss of my division announcing at a meeting that they had finalized a job description for hiring an employee to do essentially what I do as a grant – funded non employee. I was a bit worried and wondered if I should ask my boss about it. A few of you said yes, thanks for commenting.

    Monday morning I didn’t even bring it up – another manager at my boss’s level came over to our work area and asked him, and it turns out neither of them knew anything about it. (My boss, who had written the grant to bring me on, sarcastically said “I wish I had thought of that!”) They both agreed that it sounded a lot like my job and I might be a candidate depending on what the big boss is thinking, but it could also be designed to hire away someone from a related department whose term is ending, so who knows at this point.

    …And then there was a hiring freeze so that question is going to be tabled for a while anyway! Reluctantly, I am starting up the job search again. Very selectively, and just in case, but got back in touch with my references this week.

    Also, my husband has a first interview for a good job in his field halfway across the country. I’m happy for him but also nervous about if he succeeds. I basically took a year off and passed up an amazing permanent opportunity for him to do his dream postdoc, with the agreement that now it’s my turn, I get two years in this position before we move again. I am not willing to walk off my project early with no job, that would be really damaging to my career and sanity. So if he gets an offer, he would have to negotiate either a deferred start date or a spousal hire, or he might have to take a turn passing up a great job too. Cross your fingers for us I guess.

  150. mortorph*

    In my organization, we have some disfunctional leadership. Our #3 consistently undermines our CEO by talking behind his back to her team and others across the organization. Sometimes it will be gossip, sometimes its saying things like “you know you don’t always have to do what he asks for”. Personally, I know that the CEO has some things that could be improved, but overall I have a good working relationship and respect their decisions and opinions. I’m concerned that #3 undermines him to a point of affecting others work relationships and performance. I’m torn on whether I should mention something to CEO or not, because I don’t think they fully realize the extent of #3’s actions. Thoughts? Advice?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Unless a specific course of action becomes apparent, I would stay out of it. Keep your own counsel. As it stands now, say nothing and just watch.

      In my years of working I have seen that people do what they do for a reason. It sometimes takes a very long time to see what that reason is. I would be very surprised to find out CEO did not know this was going on.

  151. Lore*

    A question about phone calls in an open office environment. I’m in a cube farm, with poor soundproofing. We have some, though not enough, places to go to take or make a scheduled private call. But I run into trouble when, say, I’m trying to get in touch with a medical billing office that’s often busy or puts me on hold for ages, and doesn’t return messages. I don’t like to be away from my desk redialing or and on hold for ten minutes multiple times a day, but I also don’t want to broadcast my discussion once I finally get through. And between poor cell reception in the core of our building and the inadequate number of phone rooms, it’s often not possible to dial from my cell and then take myself to a private location once I get through. Presently, I’d like get involved in some activism that feels similarly inappropriate to share, but I’m rarely able to get through on any individual call/round of calls. Is there any reasonable way to handle this that allows for both productivity and privacy?

    1. Manders*

      I don’t have any advice, but I’m definitely having the same problem with activism right now. I know it’s not appropriate to bring politics into the workplace, but there isn’t really a private place to make calls in my office, and time zone differences mean I can’t wait until after work to call representatives in DC.

      When the weather gets warmer, I’ll be able to make calls outside on my lunch break. Until then, I’ve been making calls from the hallway and trying to keep my voice low.

      1. overeducated*

        I work in a government building so I actually walk outside to make calls on my break when I can. The wind must be annoying for the staffers and I don’t have time on a daily basis so yeah, I hear you!

        1. Lore*

          If I could feel confident of getting through on one round of calls I’d be happy to make them from the cafeteria on my lunch break. But generally it takes multiple rounds per call, so the time gets eaten up quickly!

      2. mreasy*

        I also don’t have any advice, but I did have drawn-out & detailed conversation with my vet today about my cat’s urinary tract issues today in my poorly soundproofed cube!

  152. Peach Pear*

    I’m thinking about applying for a job at a company where I’ve applied for two other jobs already. Is this a bad idea? Some background -I applied to a job at this company several months ago. It was a bit of a stretch for me so I wasn’t super surprised when I didn’t get a response. I have applied to another job with the company that is much closer to my wheelhouse maybe around three weeks ago and haven’t heard anything either (they just renewed this posting).

    This latest posting is for an internship. It is not super related to what I had been doing in the past, but I would be interested in learning these skills (and because it is an internship, less prior knowledge is required). I definitely do not think that the internship will be ma y foot in the door to get one of the other jobs at the company or anything. I really admire this company and think the internship would be a good experience. I’d prefer the full time job, but I’m not sure I”m still being considered for it. Does applying to this internships seem like a good idea, or will it just make me look desperate to get into the company in any way (again, each position touches on some of my skills, but some are more stretchy than others)? Or should I just go for it?

    1. Jules the First*

      No, do not apply for the internship. You will absolutely look like someone who either can’t decide what their skillset is, or wants a job, any job, at this company. Sorry….

  153. NaoNao*

    I’m becoming increasingly disillusioned with my mega-corp’s various policies, but my job allows me to do amazing creative work and the pay / perks are very compelling.

    After reading the “what do you make” thread, I now realize I’m in the top end of my salary range for my job, so while I *can* move and ask for more, it’s not likely I’ll get that much more. I’m in a creative-ish field, and I’m doing work I love. My office has views of the Rocky Mountains, my coworkers are a delight, my boss is terrific, and honestly, everything is great. (How often do you hear that in AAM?!)

    My issue: We are a smaller co that was eaten…I mean bought! by a huge mega corp about 18 months ago. Since then, the changes have been slow but steady. A bonus structure was phased out. Smaller perks like Christmas bonuses and free coffee/tea were/are being phased out. We’re on target to become an open plan office (WHY?) in about 3 years or so “to enhance collaboration”. A public transit pass system that allowed a greatly discounted public transpo pass (on which I 100% rely to get to work, I have no car) is now defunct, and the option given: you can purchase pass for full price with pre-tax dollars. Whee. While costing me an extra 70$ a month, it will save me the tax on 1200$ a year. Big whoop.
    The mega corp is…unfortunately a little “tone deaf” in many areas that matter to me. We were asked to complete a series of hour long “secret of my success” videos where we watched high ranking company members or special speakers talk about how they “did it”. Number of women in the 12-video series: 1.
    They also sent a (to me) very tone deaf “brag” email about being part (they meant they were assisting with various technical concerns) of a recent large, very divisive political event (not the March, the day before the March, if you get me) that felt…very insensitive given the majority makeup of our staff of over 250,000 worldwide is comprised of women, minorities, and people in non-US countries.

    I’d like to work towards finding meaningful work outside of this org, but…perks are great, salary is great, bosses and coworkers are great, location is wonderful, and so on. Any advice?

    1. fposte*

      Window-shopping never hurt anybody :-). You can look at other jobs without applying, and that’ll give you a better idea of the tradeoffs.

      I get the dilemma–there are things that have made my job less great than it used to be, and it’s hard to tell if you’re a frog being boiled. But in your instance specifically there’s a big change that’s making itself felt on the culture; it might be worth thinking about what changes would definitely make it time to jump ship if you think you could be happy elsewhere.

    2. Chaordic One*

      In the past I’ve had “great jobs” until something changed. It looks like several things in your job have changed and I wonder how much longer it is going to continue to be a “great job”.

      Since it hasn’t gone downhill all at once, this is the perfect time to start a job search, just in case something better is out there. You won’t know until you look. You’re not unemployed and you’re not desperate yet, which should make you an attractive candidate to potential employers.

  154. Anna*

    Has anyone had an experience where a coworker lost a pet? A coworker I work directly with lost a pet over the weekend (on Sunday I believe). All week she’s been struggling with crying at her desk and spends most if not all her time, hunting down new pets at the humane society. If it wasn’t for the fact that I was asking her if she wouldn’t mind working on a couple of things, I think I’d be covering her completely. I want to be understanding though and give her time – her pet was like a child! I’m a little worried though. Today she’s simply transitioned from being sad to being angry. (Last year or the year before, she went through a period of making sure she engaged in little to no idle chit chat and made our conversations work only – it actually made for a miserable few months). Any tips on how to handle it? Am I being too impatient or insensitive?

    1. fposte*

      I think it’s reasonable for you not to want to cover her whole job at this point, and she really shouldn’t be spending work hours looking for new pets (I wasn’t clear, but it sounds like she’s searching on work time). But the place to start is the manager here: “I know Lavinia is suffering and I definitely respect that, but I’m concerned about getting the extra tasks done on top of my regular workload, especially as this expectation moves into the longer term. I don’t want to push back with her given the circumstances, but I did want to discuss the possibilities for alternative coverage with you.”

    2. MegaMoose, Esq*

      While I absolutely understand that it can be really hard to lose a pet (I’ve lost a couple myself), if she can’t do anything but sit at her desk and cry and browse the internet while you’re doing her work, she really should be taking time off. You’ve given her a week – I don’t think it’s insensitive or impatient to expect that she start pulling her own weight again next week (or at least make significant movement in that direction). I guess I don’t know the best way to do that without knowing more about how your work is assigned/divided and what the management structure is, and there’s always a chance that she’s going to close off again, but you can’t really control other people’s reactions, especially during an emotional time like this. Good luck!

      *I haven’t had this experience with a coworker losing a pet, but I did have a coworker lose a child. We tried to be as helpful as we could after they were back from leave, but honestly they seemed to want to get back to “normal” and keep busy as quickly as possible. They weren’t at full output for a long while, but they were certainly holding their own.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Years ago, I lost a pet suddenly and unexpectedly. I went to work as usual. Luckily, I had flexibility in my job so I put myself in a corner away from people where I could work on a task quietly. A coworker came over with a question and was surprised to see a face full of tears on me. I apologized for my tears, explained it and tried to help her with her question.

        In my opinion it is a balancing act. The crying person tries to meet everyone halfway and everyone moves in halfway to meet the crying person. I think she was very fortunate to get the week, honestly. I think it is fine to just act like business as usual this week.

        It think it would be wise to not look to her for random conversation through out the day – just in general. Some people use their jobs to distract themselves from their problems and some people consider their jobs an annoying distraction from their main focus on their problems. She is showing you that her problems are her priority, period.

  155. Tina*

    Hi All – Long-time reader; first-time participator. Looking for folks with similar experiences who can advise what to do. I was let go from a job at a poorly functioning nonprofit last year. It was for the best. From my first day, I knew it was not going to work out. While having the right set of skills it, I was a poor fit for the lax culture. Generally, they were very small time and kind of unprofessional in some business aspects. However, the major problem was that the person I replaced was still there but in a new role. This person might be the most toxic person I have encountered in a workplace. She ruled with hostility, controlled and manipulated the CEO (who was also a first-time manager and not great at it), and was just the worst. Toxic Person ran off TEN (literally TEN) people before me in various roles with the organizations. She was rude to vendors, acted entitled, and ridiculed the kind and gentle program staff. After about six weeks, I started to make arrangements to return to my old job. So by the firing happened, I knew it was coming anyway, had next steps lined up, and I was happy to be out of there. Two other people left or were fired after me and the two (TWO!) replacements they hired to fill my role were also let go. This all happened within like a 10-month span. Here is my question…I see that they have now employed a prominent search firm to help them find a person to fill this position. A little part of me wants to share what I know: to spare another well-meaning professional! Do I reach out? Do I have a duty to organization’s mission and their constituents? To their Board? Thank you for any thoughts!

    1. fposte*

      You have no duty whatsoever. Truthfully, they’re probably not going to put a lot of weight on the word of somebody who was fired, but if they’re seeking input, you could drop them a tactful note saying that a difficult colleague was a big obstacle to this position’s success and that hiring somebody skilled at negotiating difficult dynamics will be their best chance of success.

      If they’re not seeking input, I wouldn’t bother; it’s not going to get the mean person fired either way, and it looks grudgey, not substantive.

      1. Tina*

        Thank you. That’s what I’ve been struggling with: just not coming off like someone carrying a grudge! But I am sure the site will do it’s due diligence, hopefully asking why they went through three people in a year and asking why staff turnover is frequent. Thanks again!

        1. fposte*

          It is so frustrating when they’ve got big glaring signs from the universe that they’re not reading, but I think this falls under the category of “Not my circus, not my monkeys.”

    2. Stranger than fiction*

      Unfortunately, the third party firm probably just wants the money for filling the position. But let me say, I can relate to the toxic coworker scenario very well.

      1. Tina*

        Ugh, isn’t it the worst? In addition to her meanness and biting commentary the worst was that she would do things that impacted the work. She intentionally didn’t reveal things or left things out of explanations that met her goal (I guess) of, yes, making me look bad / embarrassing me, but it also MADE THE WORK SUFFER! I just couldn’t believe that. I just never encountered anyone who crossed that line so egregiously. @Stranger than fiction: I hope you are in a better place!

    3. Chaordic One*

      I’m not sure how you can do much of anything without looking like, and being dismissed as, a “disgruntled employee.” Maybe leave a factual review of what goes on there and note the high rates of turnover on Glassdoor?

      It’s sad that the term “disgruntled employee” is considered a bad thing. Lots of “disgruntled employees” have valid and good reasons for being “disgruntled.”

      1. Tina*

        Thanks for the feedback. It such an important organization and the program staff does wonderful work. I just with I could help them to have the right leadership!

    4. Observer*

      Don’t bother. The Board is not going to do anything till there is a significant difference. Unless this is a very large organization, the kind of turnover that you describe should have alerted the Board that something was up. Of course, a functional board will first bring it to the CEO, but at some point, it needs to stop. Either the CEO deals with it, or the Board deals with it, directly or not.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This. The board should be questioning the turn over in help. They may not be questioning it. They might be buying into any white wash answers they get. Or they maybe scrambling like heck behind the scenes to find a replacement for Toxic Person.

        It’s no longer your worry. The board and others need to have their own learning experiences.

        1. Tina*

          @Observer and @Not So NewReader – Thanks to you both. No longer my worry, yes. Ah, the Board. CEO and Toxic Person have created some sort of “Emeritus Board Founder’s Circle” for long-time Board members to cycle onto, while stacking the actual Board with friends of Toxic Person. Good luck to them all.

  156. Maggie*

    My cousin suggested I apply for a job where she works (at a big teaching hospital). She works in patient access and I would be working in an completely different department (maybe even building) in student affairs (what my background is in). She suggested that I call HR after submitting my application to talk with the recruiter assigned to the position. From reading this blog, I know that is not usually recommended. Thoughts?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Maybe ask her this: “Is that something you’d usually recommend for most jobs in general, or is there a specific reason that you’re recommending it in this particular situation?”

      If she says the first, ignore her entirely. If she says the second, you’ll get more insight about where she’s coming from.

  157. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

    I am in a really odd situation (among all the other odd/terrible situations I’m dealing with at work) that I don’t necessarily know how to handle. I previously supervised an intern for a few years and she was pretty great, but then she graduated from school and we had to find new interns to fill the open positions. We were fairly friendly when she worked for us, but in a professional way, so we kept in touch once she was gone. Now she’s back and keeps crossing the line by asking for “insider information” from me. I generally ignore her texts because, well, I’m really bad at responding sometimes so it’s not like it’s out of character. There are other factors compounding the situation that make it extremely awkward and I know I need to set a permanent boundary with her, but I’m unsure how to go about it.

    1. Maggie*

      Just say that you don’t like to gossip? I had colleagues who loved to gossip but they knew not to come to me because I didn’t like it. Just be up front with her!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “Although, I really enjoyed working with you, I cannot give anyone the kind of information you are asking. Please stop asking for internal information. I would be happy to [fill in with what is doable: be a reference, keep her name on file for other openings, etc.].”

  158. Lord of the Ringbinders*

    So I work in an open plan office. (In England, where private offices aren’t such a thing, I really like sitting with my team and do some upsetting work where it’s best not to be holed up alone, so please, please can this not descend into a discussion about the evils of open plan.) I am one of two people sitting in front of a wall, with me nearest the window, which is brilliant as I don’t get people walking to and fro behind me. I have PTSD and it was a happy accident that they gave me this desk but I quickly realised it was the perfect place for me.

    Today I got into work to find that someone from the team sitting adjacent to mine moved a coat stand into the corner by the window. Which blocked my view out of it and meant people kept randomly walking behind me, without warning, to get their coats. I was really not coping well so I asked their team assistant to a) move it back and b) tell them there was a reason why it couldn’t go there if need be. By that point I was almost in tears as I was so stressed by people coming up behind me. I also told my manager (who knows I have PTSD). It’s a very understanding workplace where nobody would knowingly cause distress (my work has to do with mental health and there is good awareness about accommodations etc).

    I feel completely invaded by the fact that someone did this when I was not in the office instead of waiting until I came in and actually asking me. (The person who sits next to me wasn’t there either as she was off sick.) I know these particular individuals wouldn’t want to cause distress and would be horrified if they knew but how did they not even think to check if I minded lots of people squeezing behind me in a small space? Is that really something universally okay for people who don’t have issues with being startled? It’s such an obvious courtesy to me to ask. And I don’t like the fact it’s obvious I’m the one who objected.

    I don’t want to be that person who writes a passive aggressive note so I came here to vent instead.

    1. animaniactoo*

      It’s really really common for somebody to do something that is relatively mundane “let’s move the coatstand closer to us” without realizing that it has a big impact on other people and therefore should be asked before being done.

      The main thing is that when it became a problem, it got fixed.

    2. LCL*

      One way to look at this that may help you is,
      People don’t usually think more than one step ahead when changing their physical space. Unless that is part of their job duties, or they have some background that makes them think about it.
      I’m sure the person who moved the coatrack thought-That fits better in that corner, so I will move it there. They moved it there, believed they had solved a space problem, and didn’t give it another thought. Their thought process didn’t take the next step, which is asking how this would affect traffic flow, and if anyone would be bothered by the change. It sounds like you reacted appropriately, and there was no mean intent, so venting on AAM was a good choice.

    3. fposte*

      I think corners are really natural positions for coatracks, and I suspect that’s exactly how my brain would have thought this through. I don’t know where it used to be, but I’m guessing it was probably in somebody else’s way and this seemed less intrusive. However, it’s possible that even people without PTSD would have felt a bit squeezed by the new traffic into the corner; I don’t think it makes somebody particularly mean or thoughtless to have put the thing there, but it doesn’t mean that you’re an outlier in thinking it shouldn’t stay where it is.

      1. Lord of the Ringbinders*

        It was a really odd place to put it as it was further from all their desks, harder to get to and it blocked my window! Weird.

        Thanks all. I just came here to let off steam really and I appreciate you letting me!

    4. Temperance*

      I’ll be honest, I wouldn’t even think to ask about moving something like a coatrack unless the person was sitting right there. For me, my logical mind would think “this location is out of the way, no one will trip over the coatrack” if I put it in this space. It wouldn’t cross my mind that someone might be uncomfortable, but I wouldn’t think twice about someone wanting it moved.

    5. Snow*

      I work in a UK open plan office and the coat stand seems to have itchy feet. It’s always being moved – IT shift it because they’ve been under desks getting at wires, the cleaners move it. Also in my office it’s always behind someone. If it was put back where it used to be I wouldn’t even think you’d objected – I’d think the people who are used to sitting next to the coat stand wanted it back where it was for convenience.

  159. Accidental Analyst*

    I was re reading an article on Rands in Repose called Shields Down. It talks about when you lose an employee – not when they physically leave but when they become open to the idea of leaving.

    What was the thing that led you to consider leaving? If you want you can also throw in what caused you to commit to leaving and how long their was in between.

    1. Jules the First*

      Oh that’s easy – I decided to leave my last job when they laid off a beloved member of staff (10 years + with the company) and tried to forbid anyone from saying goodbye to him. As in, Hermione got everyone together in the lobby to say farewell to Wakeen, and Wakeen’s boss stormed through the crowd threatening to fire whoever set up this gathering because he’d expressly forbidden Wakeen to tell anyone he’d been laid off. And of course Wakeen hadn’t mentioned being laid off at all…

      The previous job I left because my boss called me a *bleeeeeeeeeep* moron in front of a television crew.

      Hmmm. I guess I’ve had some truly crazy bosses!

    2. Rincat*

      What caused me to consider leaving was the fact that my director would not let me expand my skill set – I would see a need in our department for something I could do, and had started doing, so when I proposed taking on those duties or even a promotion, he turned me down, every time. I know there are various business reasons, but it started to feel like he was trying to box me in – he kept telling me my knowledge in a certain area was just “too valuable” to lose, but my argument was that he wasn’t losing anything by letting me learn new things – it would just enhance. He never saw it that way, so I got really frustrated.

      Also my current manager is just total opposite of me personality-wise and in his values, and I can’t stand working for him anymore (he values image and reputation, I value problem solving and making things work, and in our line of work, these things are often at odds). I wanted to leave about 4 years ago…and next week I start my new job!!! I held out for so long because I had some great benefits, like telecommuting and a lot of flexibility, which was great for being pregnant and having a new baby. But now that my daughter is 2 years, I’ve been feeling really stagnant and dissatisfied, so it’s time to move on.

    3. CAA*

      I really enjoy Rands. His book, “Managing Humans”, has a prominent place on my office shelf.

      This is a really interesting question, and I see a pattern now that I’m thinking back over my career. I’ve had a total of 6 jobs (not counting times my company was bought out and I stayed on with the new one). In 4 cases, I left because the work had changed into something else and I didn’t want to do what it morphed into.

    4. Rob Lowe can't read*

      Nothing that interesting for my previous job. Started to consider leaving when I completed coursework/exams for a professional qualification that (combined with my experience) would make me eligible to move into a higher position. Committed to leaving about four months later, when I was simultaneously told that my job would probably be eliminated in six months, that there were no higher positions available, and that they would love to keep me on in a role I absolutely didn’t want at a lower salary. (It was a perfect storm of a meeting. I’m still proud of myself for responding with something to the effect of, “Thank you for the information. I’d like to take some time to digest this – can we tentatively plan to touch base about this again next week?” rather than anything that would have conveyed how crushed I felt.)

      At the job before that, I started to consider leaving when my boss said they were considering a move to a cheaper location, and committed to leaving three minutes later when the owner came into the meeting and said he had just signed a lease for the new office in a suburb 30 miles away and inaccessible by public transit. (I didn’t drive back then, although I still would have given my notice then and there even if I had. It was a part time, 12 hour per week job, and I had already suspected that open communication was not one of their core values…)

    6. Jadelyn*

      Being undervalued and underpaid, and facing an apparently implacable wall when asking that my pay be reevaluated in light of how my role has evolved.

    7. Accidental Analyst*

      Thanks for answering. It’s really interesting to see other perspectives.

      At my old job it was the realisation that my walking slowed almost to a crawl when getting closer to work. Took me too many years after that till I actually left.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Usually my reasons centered around the same one or two problems: a toxic boss and/or low pay for the work expected.

  160. Vera*

    I am seeking advise for working with a VP who has broken my confidence.

    I don’t report to him, but he is my “matrix” manager- my second boss if you will. In the past I’ve always been told my work is stellar, that I’m a high performer, etc. My own manager – also a VP – constantly fawns over me and has championed me in the organization, and as a result of her efforts I’m seen as a star performer by the company’s top executives. However, my second boss seems to see things differently. He always criticizes my work, even going to my boss with comments like, “WTF is this?”. Recently I was asked to put together a several page report in a matter of hours, since he himself forgot to do it, and he returned it to me with an e-mail stating “A couple of comments:” followed by 30+ comments.

    The last straw for me was a recent meeting where myself and some other colleagues – all of whom do report directly to him – had to rehearse presentations for an upcoming meeting, with second-boss running the rehearsal and giving feedback. I love my coworkers, but their presentations were atrocious. Nothing was formatted correctly, way too much text, some slides had the wrong template, using the spinning custom animations, generally violating all PowerPoint rules. He said nothing to them. On my presentation, he had something to say on Every. Single. Slide. This photo should be a little bigger. That font isn’t the same size as the previous slide. Why did you use a blue arrow here and a red arrow here. I know my work is good, and he’s not being equitable for whatever reason (maybe just being a jerk), but when I get feedback like this I feel like a failure. And – my own manager thinks the same presentation is GREAT.

    I’ve resolved to stay in this role for some time, so I need to find a way to rebuild my confidence despite the feedback this guy is giving me. My only solution so far is to have both VPs in the room when they review work, but that is almost never a possibility. Any tips?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Have you talked to your boss about the extent of the feedback you’re getting from the other VP? Is she aware of it?

      1. Vera*

        Yes, she’s very aware. Many times, I’ll deliver work to him (either in person or via e-mail) and get a neutral response, then I’ll hear later from my boss that he has problems with it.

        I know she defends me and is trying to be a buffer so I don’t get the brunt of of the comments.

        Like most good employees, I’d like for there to be only positive comments from him, but I just don’t think that’s a possibility.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Does she agree that his complaints are reasonable? Like she thought it was great and would have used it as it was, but could see how he would want X?

          1. Vera*

            Yes- this happens. Instead of providing feedback to me, sometimes he’ll go directly to her to complain about how crappy it was. So I’ve started having her look at things first, just to make sure I’m not crazy about the quality of work I produce.

            And yes, his comments are oftentimes valid. Sometimes I screwed up with the arrow color. Other times it’s that he wants to see the material presented in a different way. All of this is fine – I can take feedback, I swear! It’s just his delivery: so brusque and direct and even a little mean (the most recent one was “I thought we said to do X. Was I in a different meeting?”). He’ll says things in a way where I feel I can’t talk back or defend my point of view. And he just digs in on details and little things. I bring him work that’s pretty clearly 4.9/5 stars, and he’ll find the 0.1 wrong with it and let me have it. His direct reports bring him work that’s 2-3/5 stars, and they’ll get soft language and a friendly coaching session.

            1. animaniactoo*

              I think this is an issue for your boss to address then. That she needs to tell him straight up “Listen, I know she’s not your direct report, so you’re not going to coach her the way you would your own, but she’s still a person and I need you to ease up on how you approach her for the changes you need. You are so abrupt with her that it comes off as hostile.” Would your boss be open to this kind of approach, vs defending you in the moment?

              1. Vera*

                She has done this before, but it hasn’t helped much. The bad behavior always comes back. I’m going to make the assumption that this isn’t going to change, so now I’m looking for any tips on how to stay positive on my side.

    2. Marisol*

      Whenever you are being criticized in public, be sure to receive the criticism gracefully or you might look bad. One thing you might consider doing is reframe/overaccept his criticisms. So when bad VP grills you on the arrow colors, which sounds to me like a laughably stupid criticism, just receive it joyfully and as though he has said something really insightful: “So I thought a red arrow conveyed a sense of urgency; what’s your take on the arrow color?” [wait for response] “Oh, blue! Yes, I can see how blue would have conveyed calm and dignity. That’s a really brilliant point that I’ll take into consideration for next time.” Depending on how far you want to go, you could really press the point: “Fergus, in the future, when I am inserting an arrow into the powerpoint presentation, would it be ok if I stopped by your office first to discuss the subtle nuances of arrow colors?” The obvious sarcasm might be counterproductive, or it could make him look like a total fool, depending on the dynamics of your office.

      It sounds quite possible to me that this guy’s goal is, among other things, to rattle you, and if you show you’re not rattled, you’ll win. He may stop, or he may continue but you will have the change to demonstrate grace under fire.

      Other than that, I’d just ignore it. It sounds like you’re head and shoulders above your peers and if you’re getting recognition by one boss, you’re probably on the right track. Maybe this VP is jealous of you, who knows. If it feels safe to do so, you can ask your manager if he has any insight into the situation. But I’m not sure the bad VP’s jerkiness is something to take seriously.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        Yeah, this is a great tact to take as well as asking the boss what the heck is up with that vp next time Op has a one on one. It sounds like this vp has something personal against op. All his direct reports’ terrible presentations are great? This would make my blood boil.

      2. Vera*

        THANK YOU so much for this comment. I practiced saying some of these in a realistic, business tone and I couldn’t help laughing out loud. I love the idea of overaccepting, I am going to try it.

        And now that you say it, you may be right that this VP is specifically TRYING to rattle me. I hadn’t considered that.

        1. Marisol*

          My pleasure. My guess is that the reason you hadn’t considered that possibility is that you’re a sincere and conscientious person, whose work speaks for itself, who has never had the need to get in the mud and avail yourself of dirty tactics. You’re the straight-A student being harassed by the bully who can barely read. Dirty tricks are the only tools the bully has. Flash forward in time and the A student has won a pulitzer while the bully is pumping gas. Similarly, I predict this VP will be irrelevant to you in the not-too-distant future.

            1. Not A Morning Person*

              That’s a terrible situation to be in. Another suggestion: Maybe you could pretend that he’s the curmudgeonly professor giving feedback instead of the ogre. If you can stay calm and reasonable you will be the star. Take notes in the moment. Bring a notebook and write down every comment he makes, as verbatim as you can make it. That’s another way to look like you are taking it seriously and be cheerful when you say…”Thanks for the feedback!” (Alison’s advice in other circumstances has been to think of yourself as an alien or an anthropologist studying another culture. It helps to take the emotion out of the situation if you can think of it that way.) Good luck!

            2. Marisol*

              Forgot to say something else–he might want to get his people promoted instead of you. Be on the lookout for any…malfeasance in that regard and try to head anything off that you can, getting your boss involved if the situation warrants it.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      1) Resolve that is almost impossible to remain positive in the face of a steady stream of criticism. Recognize that this is a possible PSTD situation and you may need to bail at some point.

      2) Decide that this is WHO he is. He is a chronic complainer. Look at the nature of his complaints. Are they substantial or would a normal person skate by the irritation?

      3) This one is tough: Decide to let him sharpen you. Don’t make the same mistake twice. Picture him as honing you for a greater position in the future.

      4) People like this can sometimes end up very ill with lots of medical problems. If you knew today for a fact that his life might be very rough in the future does that help you to keep a perspective on what you see now?

  161. Gandalf the Nude*

    PSA: Unless you are 100% sure that your source has spelled it wrong, don’t adjust the spelling on other people’s names. My COBRA vendor does this unfailingly with my late boss’ widow, who I am probably inordinately protective of, and it drives me nuts. They’re getting her name from their system–copying or importing even–, where it’s spelled correctly, I checked, and yet they still spell it wrong every. damn. time.

    This has been a bit of an overreaction. We now return you to your regularly scheduled open thread.

    1. Rebecca*

      I don’t think this is an overreaction at all. Spelling the name correctly is a big deal. McDonald and MacDonald are two very different names…they may sound the same, but different…so no, don’t take it upon yourself. If for some reason there’s a mismatch on the COBRA vendor’s side, COBRA vendor should reach out for verification.

    2. Mrs. Fenris*

      My first name has a non-standard spelling (which I actually hate but I’m stuck with it). Having people misspell it most of the time is no big deal…well, it’s a little galling when my COUSINS misspell it on Facebook, after they’ve known me my whole life and the correct spelling is sitting right there…but I’m pretty careful about the spelling when it’s for anything official. I can just see what could happen if my bank or my insurance company think I’m not really me.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        A relative’s sibs could not get the relative’s name right. They would address mail as Mr. Middlename -Firstname- Lastname. These people were 50-60 years old so they had some years to figure out his name.

        I think it made me more aware of not messing up people’s names.

  162. Jules the First*

    I need some help phrasing something.

    Backstory: Patti has been extremely successful as an individual contributor, and about 18 months ago, she was promoted and given a team of 6 to manage (four teapot manual writers and two teapot sales reps). This has not gone so well, because Patti is not good at giving constructive, actionable feedback and her TPMWs are inexperienced. I was hired in December to grow and develop her team of TPMWs (teapot manual writing is my area of expertise, and I also – thanks to AAM! – have several years of experience managing and developing teapot manual writers).

    So I start work, and Patti gives me my first teapot manual assignment, and promptly bogs off on holiday for a week. No problem, says I – I’ll just work with our teapot designers to get as close as I can in tone and character to the examples Patti’s shown me, and then I’ll go through it with Patti. So today Patti booked a 90 minute meeting for us to go through my work. She showed up 30 minutes late, and her only comment was “It’s a 6/10 instead of an 8/10. Leave it with me and I’ll fix it.” And then she took all my files and hasn’t spoken to me for the rest of the day.

    Now I’m not worried about my job. But I do want to address the utter absence of useable feedback with Patti next week in our debrief – what I want to tell her is that I’m sorry it wasn’t where she wanted it to be this week, but that she needs to articulate what she’s thinking if I’m going to get the next one right (let alone mentor her team in the direction she wants them to grow). I can’t read her mind (yet).

    Can you help me phrase this without offending her?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      “Can you clarify for me the specific areas in which this needed improvement in order to align with your vision for the final product? It’s helpful for me to have this information so we don’t repeat this next time around.”

    2. Murphy*

      Phrase it in terms of what you need in order to give her what she wants. “Patti, I understand that my work this week wasn’t where you wanted it. Can you let me know what I need to do in order to get up to standards?” You can maybe request a meeting to go over the previous work, or just a feedback session.

    3. animaniactoo*

      “Patti, I understand that it can be easier to fix something yourself than to explain how to do it to someone else and that you may sometimes be pressed for time and need to do that. However, in order for the team to learn I need to be able to explain what was wrong and give them the opportunity to fix it. Going forward, can you work with me on giving it back to them to fix, with guidance about what should be revised for the 2nd draft? I understand that the process will take longer for awhile and we may need to adjust some internal deadlines, but putting in this effort now should help make it smoother over the long run.”

  163. zora*

    Oh, just remembered one thing I’ve wanted to bring up here for input!

    I’m the only admin at our satellite office, which opened only about a year ago and is growing fast. My boss wants me to create an “Office Management Plan” for the office with long-term goals, as I take on more responsibility. I asked her what kinds of things she wanted in that plan, and she wasn’t sure ;o). She just really likes plans, I guess. She said she’ll be thinking about what she wants it to be, but I thought I’d throw it out here for some ideas.

    Does anyone work somewhere that does have long-term written plans for site management? Or what kinds of things would you want the office manager to be taking into account and managing? Or, for those of you who have been part of a small office that started growing, what kinds of things came up as you got bigger? Any thoughts or places you would point me for info would also be appreciated. Thank you!

    1. Lillian Styx*

      For long-term planning I look at the fixed assets register, which tells me how long we have had a thing and when it is due for replacement. Something like that could help you set up a schedule for equipment assessment/replacement. We had a lot of old, old equipment when our org suddenly started to grow and it took us nearly 5 years to get up to date with everything (and now it’s time to replace the computers again lolkillme!)
      I also have a vendor list with any relevant contract renewal dates so I can decide well in advance if I want to seek bids from other companies. For non-contracted vendors I try to do this every 3 years.
      Having a good supply inventory system to gauge how much of a thing you use and how quickly can save you time and money when ordering.
      That’s all I can think of at the moment!

      1. zora*

        These are great thoughts, thank you!! I really wasn’t even sure where to start with what this plan would include, so this is fantastic, totally pointing me in the right direction.

    2. Marisol*

      God no, I wish we had a plan like that but I suspect I will be the one who takes the initiative to write it for that to happen.

      Think about what your duties are, what the workflow is for accomplishing those duties and work from there. What bugs you about the way the office is run, and what is going smoothly? Some things that I personally would include in my office plan are:

      mail delivery
      ordering/stocking supplies; vendors
      maintenance of machines: xerox, postage machine
      reserving the conference room
      setting up catering
      security/guest reception procedures
      onboarding new hires–badges, passwords, computers/supplies, etc.
      timesheets
      parties (holiday parties, birthdays)
      office map/seating chart
      Filing system (hard copy files)
      filing system (e.g. naming conventions for files if the whole company will be searching them)
      IT infrastructure

      Now these are all office manager-type things which is what I assume you mean by “office management plan” since you’re an admin. If you’re talking about something like a high-level operating plan, like business goals and strategies (e.g. “focus on emerging markets”), then that’s above my paygrade and I wouldn’t know how to advise you. I find the “goals” part of your manager’s request confusing, because, it seems the goal is always to have be 100% free of errors when it comes to stuff like admin. So maybe I don’t understand what your boss is looking for, but that’s my advice fwiw.

      1. zora*

        No, you are right, these are the kind of office management categories I was referring to, thank you for this!!

        Unfortunately, a lot of these are out of my hands because we work out of a co-work space that handles a lot of this, but still, it’s a good list to start thinking about! Especially if she thinks we might move to our own space some day, which she is still thinking about.

        Thank you!!

    3. Chaordic One*

      In one of my old jobs I wanted to do this, but was swamped with day-to-day things. My boss brought in an outsider and in addition to the excellent things mentioned by Lillian Styx and Marisol it included things like:

      Policies for who had parking passes and keys to the office .
      Policies for who had possession of company laptops and cell phones they could take home and policies for their use.
      Emergency evacuation procedures. (People in different locations in the building were generally expected to leave by the nearest exit and then meet at a central point. If an exit was blocked, use a different one. There were people who weren’t sure and you had to tell them what door to go out, or if there were a fire they would sit there and burn up. I’m not kidding.)
      Who to call in cases of emergency, local authorities (police, fire, ambulance, 911, electric company), the managers of the branch, and then managers at the headquarters.
      Policies for who to call when there was an emergency (like a snow day) when the office was closed. (We had a phone tree where managers called supervisors who called their staff.)

      1. zora*

        This is good stuff, too, thank you! Again, most of this is handled by other parties, but if I have it all documented in one place, my boss will probably be super happy we have a “plan”. ;o)

  164. Xarcady*

    Had an interview! For a job I think I would really like!

    But, I have a three year gap in my resume, from 2009 to 2011, from when I was the primary caretaker for my father. I temped a little in there, and did some freelance work, but not much of either. Since then, I have been working a part-time retail job and temping 8-9 months out of the year for one company, in a variety of positions–because I can’t find a decent full-time job. I’ve explained the gap the way Alison suggests, saying that I was not working because I was dealing with a family health issue that has since been resolved.

    One of the people interviewing me asked about that. I stated that I was ready, willing and able to work full-time, the health issue wasn’t mine and was completely resolved. He moved on, but circled back. I gave basically the same answer in slightly different words. He moved on.

    But then he circled back again, asking how he could be sure I wouldn’t need more time off. I had been trying to avoid this, because I knew what would happen. But I looked him in the eye and said, “Because my father died.” And I started tearing up.

    The other two people interviewing me quickly moved on to another question.

    But, yeah, don’t think I’ll be getting a call for a second interview.

    1. animaniactoo*

      fwiw, the interviewer’s co-workers are probably giving him endless crap about that.

      If you get stuck there again I would say something along the lines of “Well obviously there are no guarantees in life, but this particular issue will never be my responsibility again, so I feel confident in saying that it won’t be a problem.”

      or a slightly confused look “I’m not sure what you’re asking here? If the issue has been completely resolved can you explain why you would have a concern over my needing more time off for this?”

      1. fposte*

        To my ear those both sound pretty defensive, though, especially the second. And honestly, in a situation like this I don’t think there’s any need to deflect just for principle when you can simply say that your father passed away.

    2. fposte*

      Obviously this is very personal, but it might be easier both for you and the conversation if you were less circumspect; “I was caring for my ill father, who eventually passed away” is an impeccable and non-TMI answer to me, and it gives you more control over the narrative since you’re unlikely to get people probing into his cause of death and last days.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        I agree with this. While I don’t like that the interviewer repeatedly came back to the issue, I think he only did so because he probably felt like you were purposely giving him an obtuse answer. I probably would have used your initial language the first time it was asked, but then used fposte’s suggested language the second time.

        I also agree with animaniactoo that the coworkers are probably giving him crap about it, and that he himself probably feels pretty awful about it in the end, too.

    3. JBurr*

      Oh, Xarcady, I’m so sorry. Sometimes it’s nigh impossible to talk about a parent’s death in even the most matter of fact terms. I know for me, it’s even harder in an already stressful situation like an interview. I avoid it, too, when I can. Unfortunately, if someone’s going to be that impossible about it, it’s usually better to just have the moment and get it over with than to have it continue to be a topic of speculation. And you also learn something valuable about that interviewer and what he’d be like to deal with if you worked with him.

      But really, what an incredible ass.

    4. Marisol*

      I don’t know your industry but I’d think you’d have to have a heart of stone to hold it against someone for tearing up in that situation. It doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong to me. It’s not like you blew your nose on the drapes for gods sake. You just acted like a human. Hopefully your interviewer feels some shame for pushing the way he did.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      You handled it well considering the interviewer was an ass.

      I agree with fposte that it is okay to say your father passed away. Especially when they ask several times.

      Going forward you are a day older and a day wiser. Most people understand the phrase “that situation has been resolved” means the sick person has probably passed away. There are some who do not get it. If it were me, after seeing this foolish person, I would just answer the question the first time I heard it, in terms they would understand. Part of what I see here is that the situation dragged on and on. Nip it. Don’t let it go on. If they are foolish enough to ask you how you can be so sure, then just shrug, shake your head and say, “he passed away”. You can add, “I am now ready to move forward with other aspects of my life.”

  165. Maggie*

    I have another question:

    I’m applying for a job that requires a Bachelor’s Degree in Nutrition, Health Education or Public Health or equivalent education. My degree is Exercise Science and I took many classes in nutrition, did my independent study in nutrition, and also took public health classes. Should I mention these somehow or will my degree suffice? Thank you!

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I would mention them so you don’t get screened out. Maybe a sentence on the cover letter like, “In addition to my degree, I have extensive coursework in nutrition and public health.” I’d find a way to work it onto the resume, but not more than one line.

      3. Sensual Shirtwaist*

        is this the time to add one (one!) line below the degree title with relevant course work?

  166. emma2*

    A recruiter stood me up for a phone interview. I e-mailed her asking if the interview was still scheduled, and I got a reply 5 days later asking me to give her times to schedule another interview. She didn’t even acknowledge my last email or apologize for flaking on the interview. Now it’s been 3 days and she hasn’t confirmed any of the times I have given her. Should I just give up on this job opening? It’s a really good position at a really good company, but it doesn’t seem like I am a priority candidate.

  167. Could Not Possibly Want To Be More Anonymous*

    (mostly venting, but with a question at the end)
    I am the admin assistant at a small religiously-affiliated non-profit organization. Financial actors, with the exception of the part-time bookkeeper, are all volunteers (treasurer, financial secretary, various boards).
    Many “best practices” of money handling and general financial matters are ignored, e.g. the same people count money together on the regular, NO AUDITS are performed by people who have the slightest idea how do do them, only one signature required on checks, I could go on and on…
    Main board with financial oversight simply does not exercise it. They discuss larger-picture investments but ignore day-to-day bills and cash-flow issues. Main issue is my boss, the CEO, so to speak, of this organization. Boss spends organization’s money without prior permission or regard to approved budget, often on personal items for herself, then moves money around from other accounts to pay for what is spent, so that budget categories do not show a negative. Org credit card is used for personal expenses (e.g. airfare, lodging, car rental, camera and other consumer tech purchases while on a leave of absence, not even kidding…), which boss claims she will reimburse, but she does not. I believe, but am not certain, that this by itself violates some law or another regarding non-profit finances, not to mention that if this were honestly reported as income on her W2 she’d owe a bunch more in taxes over the past five years or so. Bookkeeper is slowly losing her mind, because she’s frightened that she’ll be blamed one day when/if this all comes to light, but she’s told the treasurer and a few members of the financial board about what’s going on and they do nothing. She’s documenting as much as she can but it’s soul-killing.
    I am fairly insulated from financial matters, luckily, but I have come to the point where I despise my boss so much that I can barely stand to be in the same room with her. I guess I’m just venting for myself but is there anything that the bookkeeper can do for self-preservation? (Quitting is not an option at this point, for a variety of reasons.)

    1. Lillian Styx*

      Yikes. I think the best your bookkeeper can do is keep her documentation for when/if an actual authority steps in. Or maybe the two of you can go to the board again together? Strength in numbers and all that. Tell them you both care deeply about the org and that you’re concerned your boss’s actions are going to really do damage if someone doesn’t step in to enforce your financial policies.

    2. neverjaunty*

      I know I always say this but there is a reason I do: she needs to talk to a lawyer ASAP. If she’s panicking now (and good on her for keeping records of what’s going on), imagine how she’ll feel if the IRS shows up and her boss points the finger at her.

      1. Could Not Possibly Want To Be More Anonymous*

        What could prompt the IRS to show up? I am genuinely curious about this. (We both think that going to the board would be as much as our jobs are worth, as while I am in a position not to care about that, the bookkeeper isn’t.)

        1. neverjaunty*

          I was going to not to mention that if this were honestly reported as income on her W2 she’d owe a bunch more in taxes over the past five years or so. Your boss is also, bluntly, embezzling money from the nonprofit with the board at least turning a blind eye, and from what you say you’re in a situation where boss would immediately fire you if you tried to get the board to do its job. And you can’t expect the boss to accept blame when (not if) it all comes out.

        2. Observer*

          To clarify what Neverjaunty said:

          There are two potential issues. One is the effective income that the CEO is getting, that she’s not paying tax on.

          The other is that the IRS looks at the financials of non-profits, to see if the are allowed to have the tax exempt status. If something seems off they can come and audit things. The fact that there are no financial safeguards in place would be a problem. And, even if the IRS didn’t find something in that respect that made it decide to revoke the tax-exempt status, they would most definitely pass on information on all of this stuff to the relevant agencies. Considering that what is being described sounds like fraud to me, that’s a really, really big deal.

    3. Marisol*

      when you say she’s told the treasurer, has she done so in email? If not, maybe that’s the next step, so that the treasurer would have to confront the memorialized communication.

      1. Could Not Possibly Want To Be More Anonymous*

        Numerous in-person discussions have taken place. Treasurer is as disgusted as we are, but when she has floated trial balloons about tightening up on policies, she’s been shot down, so she feels she has no support and has no interest in going it alone.

        1. Observer*

          She should still send an email to each one of these people. Bcc it to herself, so that she has a record that she’s tried to do something.

          And then she should start looking for another job. There is apparent fraud going on and definitely breaches of all sorts of non-profit rules and regulations. She could easily find herself without a job from one day to the next – AND dealing with the taint, especially if Boss tries to throw her under the boss.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think the choices here are report them or quit. The longer you stay there the deeper involved you become. She is embezzling funds from an NPO, period. It’s fraud and everyone is complacent. In my state they could be in danger of losing their tax exempt status and facing charges. The fact that there are no audits and no outside auditor is huge.

      I am trying to scare you. Your setting is scary. Please take care of yourself. If you cannot quit for whatever reason, please talk with an attorney who specializes in handling NPOs and NPOs’ financials.

  168. Dorothy D*

    6 months ago I moved across the country for a job. It’s becoming clear that that was a mistake, as my father is having many health problems and might not have much time left (nothing is certain right now) and I’m thinking I need to be there for him and my mom. I saw a posting for a job near them that I’m qualified for and I would love to do. Is there any way to explain the situation in the cover letter? To explain why I’d be moving back to the state so soon after moving away? Is there a way to tell them I’m moving back to be with family but I’m still applying to the job for xyz reasons (so it doesn’t sound like I’d just take any job to be close to them, even though that may be the case – this would be a fantastic job though and I’d be lucky to have it under any circumstances).

    1. She's Moving Home*

      I actually am going through something similar (and posted about it below before I saw your comment, sorry!). I am sorry about your father.

      In my cover letter, I mentioned “looking for a job closer to home” but didn’t elaborate. In the phone interview I had for that job, I was asked about it. I said that I was moving home for family reasons, but the reason I was especially interested in Teapots, Inc. was because XYZ. But would really love to hear from others on this.

  169. Stranger than fiction*

    My coworker is accusing me of doing something I didn’t do and even though I explained what really happened repeatedly, she keeps saying I’m lying and has now told others. This is my professional reputation she’s messing with and I’m pissed! I’ve done as much damage control as I can, and I have a lot of people on my side (because she’s condescending and has a holier than thou attitude as it is when she’s far from perfect). But I’m sure there’s still people in another dept that may believe her. Anything more I can do or is this just one of those “it will pass” kind of things? It’s literally been keeping me up at night. I’ve been kind and helpful to this person and thought she was my friend but I think part of it is she’s taking her personal life (which is a trainwreck) out on me and our coworkers.

    1. fposte*

      It will pass, and poking at it will make it worse at this point. But if you get problems from other employees because of it, it’s manager time.

    2. Chris*

      I recommend taking a deep breath, and letting it pass.
      People will notice that you are investing no emotional energy into her accusations and not feeding the troll. Bonus if you can look embarrassed on her behalf without appearing condescending. Eventually they forget the accused action and recall only how you and your coworker acted during the situation – something that can be far more damaging to reputation.

    3. Marisol*

      definitely don’t do any more explaining. If she wasn’t convinced the first time, she won’t be convinced the tenth time. At this point her accusations are not being made in good faith, she’s just trying to get some sort of stimulation from pushing your buttons.

    4. Not A Morning Person*

      I have a different take on this. Of course this depends on how serious the accusation is and whether it could damage your career prospects at this organization. At a minimum loop in your manager and explain what’s going on. Say it’s just as an FYI because you don’t want a falsehood getting spread around and damaging your reputation and you want your manager to be aware of this situation, the facts of what occurred, and the falsehood that is being spread by this person. Good luck!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I agree about looping the manager in. You can ask what your next steps should be.

        I would also consider asking for a three person meeting with the manager, depending on the severity of the accusation.

        I have become a little bit hardened over the years about these matters. I don’t believe ignoring it works. I believe in some cases a firm and fast response is necessary. You are saying it impacts your reputation, that to me is enough basis to move forward.

        The excuse that her personal life sucks does not fly with me. Lots of people have horrible, horrible personal lives and they are nothing but kind to their cohorts. Her personal life is a separate issue that can be addressed separately if the need be. Meanwhile spreading lies about someone is never acceptable. Right now, she is an office bully and should be told to cut it out.

  170. RavensandOwls*

    Weird, weird interview yesterday, which sucks because it’s with a company I really want to work with. I don’t know how I feel about it, tbh. The interviewer didn’t seem to know much about my resume, asked only a couple of questions, and the phrasing of them was odd – like I wasn’t 100% sure what they were asking, and when I asked for clarification, I didn’t get any. Ended a 30 minute interview after 21 minutes, even though I asked several questions – many pertinent to the readings I was assigned and following up on my previous phone interview (I asked about some of the projects they referred to on the application, for example, and about the company’s community engagement traditions).

    tl;dr: Move date is getting closer, I am a horrible ball of stress, I think I screwed up a weird phone interview.

    1. Marisol*

      doesn’t sound like you screwed up anything; it sounds like they did, and their behavior is beyond your control. Sorry for the unpleasant experience.

  171. Bored*

    I recently switched jobs into a different type of employment to get away from a hostile work situation. I have no problem with the job and am loving the new coworkers but I am *so* bored at work now. The work that took my predecessor all week to finish only takes me one or two days, after which I find myself roaming around looking for work and generating “busy work” to keep myself entertained. (Apparently my interviewer wasn’t kidding when he suggested that this job would be easy with my background and talents)

    And no, I cannot offer to help other departments because skill sets are so specific (think accountants). The only people that I can help seem to be building janitorial, who are more than happy to have another person offering to clean toilets.

    A recent opportunity came up for an interview that would put me back in my old type of employment and back into a higher overall wage with better benefits than this job can ever offer. I have been with the new job less than 6 months but have worked through their peak busy season so I strongly suspect that if I stay I will be bored out of my mind. Am I being too hasty? This would be the only position that I ever had that I left so quickly (all other employment has been 5+ years)

    Has anyone else left a seemingly perfect job due to crushing boredom?

    1. neverjaunty*

      Yes. It wasn’t the company (they were lovely people) or the hours (9-5) but the work itself. If a job is so boring it makes you want to set your desk on fire for a distraction, it is not a perfect job.

    2. OP#1 from Wednesday*

      I’m in this boat too. At first, NewJob was wonderful…and as the weeks dragged on, it became apparent it wasn’t the right fit. I am bored too, and more than that, the person who is supposed to train me says I seem confused and ask too many questions. Well, duh, that’s what happens when someone NEW comes aboard a totally new company, new coworkers, and new EVERYTHING…questions are asked. I’m sure people will think I’ve lost my mind when I go back to OldJob.

  172. Giant Assist*

    As a new employee, I have to answer questions that might be featured in our HR newsletter. One of the questions is:

    “If you were at your desk when, for some unknown reason, one of you coworkers shrinks to just 2 inches tall. You discover you minuscule coworker in the hallway when no one else is around. What do you do with him?”

    How should I answer?

    1. LCL*

      Since you are new, until you get a feel for this place, answer with something cute and socially acceptable and G-rated. Like, I’d ask him if he needed help, and with his permission move him somewhere where he won’t be stepped on.
      If you are me, I could answer bring him home for the dog, the dog likes to hunt and kill small things. Don’t give that kind of answer.
      Whatever you do, even though you may have read about this scenario in adult media, don’t go there.

    2. overeducated*

      Find him the cake that made Alice in Wonderland grow when she ate it after the potion shrunk her?

    3. Lillian Styx*

      You step gingerly around him to go get a coffee cup, put him in the coffee cup and give him a ride to your desk where you call an ambulance and/or your psychiatrist.

    5. Rebecca*

      Well…you could pick up poor naked little coworker (assuming naked because not sure the actual clothes would shrink too) and give them part of a tissue to wrap up in…and past that, not sure…offer them a few cookie crumbs and a teaspoon full of milk?

    6. Alexandra*

      Hand him a teeny tiny bullhorn and ask if he’d like a hand? If anyone questions your claim to have a teeny tiny bullhorn, point out that if you lived in a universe where people could magically shrink, it’d be the kind of useful thing you’d keep in your bag.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I’d write something bland that most people would say, “Well that is a kind and thinking thing to do.”

      The question is stupid. It begs for really bad answers.

  173. Charlie Brown*

    How do you keep up morale when job searching? It’s easy to feel let down if you don’t get an offer or to go through all of the steps and not even get a call.

    1. RavensandOwls*

      I would also like to know this. I’ve heard 2 nos and gotten two interviews for the same job, but I still have 25-something applications out there with nary a word.

    2. Anxa*

      I take solace in the fact that maybe I have periods of removing myself from the search, but that I’m still looking. It doesn’t pay bills and it doesn’t make me feel good and I know it’s not that much, but I think about how demoralizing it is and that I’m still going!

      Just surviving through long-term unemployment and underemployment is a huge accomplishment, in my opinion. And if you have a decent job and are still trying, that shows another level of persistence to be proud of, because it could be just so much easier to get complacent.

    3. writelhd*

      I don’t have a perfect answer, but one thing I’ve done during my husband’s job search, is find a way to reward yourself after a certain period of time of going through it. Like, “after I’ve endured 10 mondays (because mondays are always the worst) I’m going to let myself go out and get a beer again and take my mind off of it for a while.” even a small release to look forward to can help. Because your life is not JUST a job search.

  174. Mimmy*

    Dang it, 1200 comments already! Interview suit help NEEDED

    What color top should I wear with a (I think?) charcoal gray pants suit? And what TYPE of top? (Sorry, but I think button-down blouses are stuffy).

    Shoes: Black pumps okay?

    1. Anxa*

      Oh! I can’t really pull off button downs too well. I’m pretty flat-chested, but I still get gap issues, and I find they make me look a little bit like an FBI agent.

      Almost all the tops I’ve been able to find, unfortunately, are sleeveless. I wish more clothes makers would make shirts that have sleeves that sit well under a suit, have a feminine neckline, but also are work appropriate. What I really need to do is invest in a camisole that will cover my bra to go under the shirts I have so I’m not afraid to lean forward if I drop something, since the shirts I have that look best have some type of loose neck.

      I light light blue or pink if I know I’m not going to have to take the jacket off (those colors ‘pit’ easily), but that’s mostly due to my complexion.

    2. Sophie*

      I wear a shell top (sleeveless top with round neckline) with my suit. My top is a light pale pink and goes well with gray.

      Yes, black pumps would be fine.

      1. The Principal of the Thing*

        That outfit sounds perfect. Pastels under grey are always a good look and are slightly softer than white.

    3. Graciosa*

      Yes on the shoes. For the top, the more important aspects are making sure it is not low cut, shiny, or clingy and that your nipples are not visible. I have tank tops and suit sweaters that meet these criteria just fine with not a button in sight.

      A gray suit will go with almost any color. I would say white is the basic standard, but even conservative industries accept pastels and jewel tones.

      Pick something that makes you feel happy and confident within the bounds of normal business wear.

    4. RavensandOwls*

      I can’t do button downs… they gap and no tape I’ve come across has sufficiently addressed that issue (also, safety pins are a pain).

      As to charcoal grey – I personally would wear something brighter, blouse-wise. I lean to greens and blues, but that’s a me thing – pink would look nice and yellow and grey is a color combo if you can pull off yellow (but not with black pumps… I’d feel like a bee). Leaving aside how they got politicized, I really do like the bow-style, non-buttoned front of some blouses personally. I own a few nicer tank tops that I wear with blazers – what kind of climate are you in?

      Black pumps are classic! I wore purple once to an interview; didn’t get the job (long story on that one that had nothing to do with shoes) but I did get a lot of, “Ooh, purple!”

    5. Rincat*

      Black pumps: yes

      Top: I like plain, sleeveless shells in a woven fabric like silk. I don’t like button downs either, and anything with sleeves feels bunchy under a blazer. For color…I’d probably wear a jewel tone with charcoal gray. I’m fond of navy, deep greens, deep purples. Black would be too dark for charcoal for the top. Or you could do tonal with a light gray top…but not heathered gray. Stay away from anything jersey knit. Sweater knit is okay, but I think a woven fabric is best.

    7. MegaMoose, Esq*

      My interview suit up until recently was on the lighter end of charcoal grey, and I usually wore a short-sleeve or sleeveless knit top, usually a maroon square-neck, sometimes a deeper blue round-neck (I hate button-downs and get sweaty during interviews so would rather have short sleeves for comfort). I used to wear black pumps until those got too ragged, then I switched to brown pumps and actually liked how that looked better. I think either are fine, though.

    8. RR*

      Black pumps sound fine. I have a charcoal gray skirt suit — I usually wear a silk shell; either black and white patterned or a solid bright color. Pick a color that works with your skin tone. Good luck with your interview!

    9. Marisol*

      agree with the shell idea and that black pants are fine. For the color, I personally would stay away from anything except pastel or white. I like ivory or cream with charcoal. an inexpensive polyester shell is fine, so long as you wear the right undergarments so that your bra isn’t noticeable.

    10. Chaordic One*

      Maybe try a mock-turtleneck with a necklace?

      If the job turns out to a bit more casual, if you get the job you could probably wear a nice t-shirt (maybe long-sleeved and also with a necklace) or a polo-style shirt under a blazer, but those are usually a bit too casual to wear to an interview.

    11. Mimmy*

      Adding to my question: I’m getting conflicting advice on whether to even wear a suit to the interview. I always thought that you are supposed to wear a suit, even if it’s a pants suit (though I admit to being lax on that a couple of times in the past). Anyway…others have said that wearing a suit is overkill, and that slacks and a nice top would be fine.

      I know should’ve prepared knowing that I’m job searching, but these leads literally came out of the blue – the agency I’m interviewing at approached ME (as opposed to me applying to a job posting). I haven’t applied to anything else since October.

        1. Chaordic One*

          There seems to be a problem with this link.

          If you click on it and get a “Sorry, that page does not exist,” go up to the URL and delete the letter “v” at the very end of the address and hit ENTER and you should get the right page.

        2. Mimmy*

          The problem is when someone doesn’t know and listens to someone not in their field or geographic area, and that person tells them a suit isn’t necessary, and that advice turns out to be wrong for the field/location.

          Ha! Well that negates the two people who told me a suit wasn’t necessary! My hubby is in IT and another person is from the Southwest!

  175. BRR*

    Mostly just a story to share. So this week we had a department meeting regarding our office space. There are plans to do something with it to make sure we are using our space effectively and the architect is meeting with certain people for feedback. I work in a completely open office and basically said in a professional tone that I hate everything about it and offered cited different studies I have read. Our director also pointed out our cubes are bigger than other nonprofit cubes in the city and I defended my cube space by saying our cubes aren’t big, other nonprofits have small cubes.

    The two biggest hurdles for improving our office (besides cost) are the office is LEED certified with part of that requiring no obstructions to the sunlight coming in and we have a lot of traveling staff and my employer doesn’t like to treat traveling staff and office based staff differently. I’m not sure what will be done but it was nice having the opportunity to provide feedback on the space.

    1. Jules the First*

      For what it’s worth, as architects we love getting your feedback too! (Especially if it’s the original architect – we almost never get to talk to the people who actually are most affected by our work!)

  176. Bananistan*

    Oh no, I’ve been waiting for this thread all week and now I’m super late! Anyway, for those who are still reading, do you have any advice for staying focused during very tedious, very time-consuming tasks at work? (By “very tedious”, I mean literally just copying and pasting for days on end. I promise my job isn’t always this boring!) Usually I put on a podcast and power through, but my current tedious task requires me to listen to audio.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Ugh…why do you have to listen to audio as you copy and paste?
      Can you take 5 minute power breaks? That is about the only thing I can think of at the moment.

    2. RavensandOwls*

      RainyMood and dim lights. That’s my go to for tedious stuff, so I feel like I’m sitting inside during a thunderstorm.

      This has worked on two different occasions where I needed to do nitpicky, specific edits on 900+ slide Powerpoints.

    3. animaniactoo*

      Consistent focused short breaks. If I do this for 30 minutes, I can take a 5 minute break. Timers are your friend.

    4. MegaMoose, Esq*

      My condolences on not having audio as an option. Other than that, I tend to have some luck with setting challenges for myself: if I did 50 docs this morning, can I do 60 this afternoon, etc. I’m also a fan of allowing regular, short breaks after I meet a particular goal. Just long enough to comment on AAM, for example. TIME!

  177. She's Moving Home*

    If I am moving back home to be closer to an ill parent, how do I discuss this in my job search? In this instance, it is not a case where the problem has been resolved. But I also don’t expect to need to take time off, nor do I want to signal that to a prospective employer. But I haven’t been at my current far away job to really explain moving back as seeking a new opportunity/challenge.

  178. Me*

    Job hunt update:

    I’ve had a couple of phone screens but gah, the pay here is abysmal. There are jobs, but they’re almost all entry-level and salaries reflect that. Plus, the same employers I saw in 2012 are still advertising the same jobs (I cross-checked my lists), which tells me they either pay crappy or the company is crappy. Glassdoor reviews seem to back this up.

    I am not going to find a decent admin job here or even in St. Louis. The pay there isn’t much better. I got gutsy and applied to a couple of tech writer / editor jobs on both coasts–one is telecommute, but I can’t tell if they want someone who can come in periodically, and it may be contract. If it is, that doesn’t help me much, because it could end up being super low pay after taxes. The other one is in southern CA and what was I thinking because where would I live!? They probably won’t contact me anyway–they wanted a year more experience than I have. It’s really hard to get out of that damn secretarial pool, Don Draper! I have a portfolio online now—it’s hilariously small but I have one good piece from Exjob in it. :)

    I wish the weather would warm up soon so I could have a garage sale and ditch some crap in case I have to suddenly bail. As if that wasn’t bad enough, I saw a roach on the floor the other day–a thing that has never happened in this house before. The Crumbling Albatross is on its last legs, I guess. I doubt I’d even break even with a short sale if I had to move. :(

    On the bright side, I did manage to lower some of my bills by calling up and whining, so there’s that.

    2. Caledonia*

      I’m sorry it’s really difficult. I hope the spring not only brings the warmer weather but some better opportunities (job wise, life wise).

  179. AnotherAlison*

    A coworker has moved to my floor who I have never sat near before. But, I see him at the gym all the time. He’s a very avid runner and wears spandex shorts, so it’s weird to see him in pants. Now, to keep myself from actually saying that to him. . .

    1. Not Karen*

      lol Yesterday my coworker who usually wears t-shirts and such came in with a plaid shirt and dressy khakis and I wanted to tell him that he looked very much like a dad (which he is, incidentally) but resisted.

  180. Rosie*

    I recently started a really cool temporary position at a certain very popular tourist destination. This place gives very sought-after benefits (free tickets, discounted food and merch, discounted accommodations) to people who work there and their family and friends. My mom was super excited for this and keeps pestering me to find out exactly how many tickets we could get, as well as other specifics about my benefits, which she wants to use for a family trip later this spring.

    Well… turns out the type of position I have doesn’t get those free tickets, although we do get the other benefits. My mom and I both had reason to believe that I would get them, but I guess that’s not the case. But she’s been so excited about planning our family’s trip that I don’t know how to break it to her. What would you suggest? (Note: it’s not like this would be our make-it-or-break-it once-in-a-lifetime trip to this place. We’ve been there a few times before.)

  181. More anon for this one*

    Was I fired?

    I’m filling out an ATS application. I’ve worked pretty hard on my resume and cover letter and there aren’t many other jobs I’m qualified right now. I’m on the question section and I have come across this:

    “During the last 10 years , were you fired from any job for any reason, did you quit after being told that you would be fired , or did you leave by mutual agreement because of specfic [sic] problems?”

    So, I want to put Yes because I don’t want to be fired after the fact or be dismissed. But I want to put No because I’m afraid that once I explain it I will look overly earnest or will be automatically rejected from the system.

    In 2008 a fellow coworker (in a student organization) had an issue with my work performance. It was admittedly subpar and I was (unknowingly) flailing a lot personally. Instead of mentioning it too me she went to our student paper to have them write a story about my work. My higher-up had a meeting with me and we put me on, what I guess would be the equivalent of a PIP. My higher-ups had never talked to me about the issue, but apparently they had agreed I needed to do more work, but when it all come to a head (the article) they also seemed to suggest they thought the whole thing was ridiculous. It was very weird. I was never asked to resign my position by my supervisors. It really, really shook me. I had, I think, undiagnosed anxiety at the time and this was literally the worst way I could have been nudged into stepping it up. Just thinking about makes me pretty anxious. The whole thing was a bit traumatizing and for the year or so after graduation I was terrified to take any risks, because I was so afraid of making another mistake like that.

    In 2010 I was told I would not be asked back for the spring season where I work. There were several rounds of lay offs as we went from summer to winter. If I was a stronger worker, I would have made the cut. No one talked to me about a specific issue and I was told as I was clocking out of my last shift before a several-week hiatus.

    In 2014 I received fewer and fewer shifts at one part-time job. Part of it made sense because it was for test prep and it started after one of the test dates. I had to call them after 2 weeks to see if I was still working and they kind of dithered about it but said they didn’t need me. I wasn’t the only one on the schedules who had no hours.

    In 2015 I took a job at a new restaurant that was opening. It was a horrible fit (I didn’t screen it well because it was literally still under construction). I was too slow and cautious with serving and I was let go after 3 shifts. It was standard practice to overhire and then have “cuts.” Was I fired or did I not make my audition?

    1. BRR*

      I think with your history you have to answer yes. Not just the last one. There are a few gray areas in what you told.

      1. misspiggy*

        I’d disagree, FWIW – if the 2015 job would be on your resume or easily associated with you through a background check, answer yes – but the others don’t meet the criteria to answer yes as far as I can see.

  183. Anon E Mouse*

    People in school district HR and principals:
    What are the conventions of teacher resumes now? I have seen some examples online that do NOT match the advice given here, so I’m wondering if they are bad examples or if it’s a field-specific thing. I have 19 years of teacher-leader experience, so I can certainly pull together an achievement-oriented resume, beyond just the normal planned lessons/did duty type things.

      1. Teach*

        I guess that’s what I’m wondering! Many teachers stay put for decades, so never rewrite them. The last time I wrote one from scratch was in the late 90’s…

    2. Panda Bandit*

      A few of my friends are teachers and their resumes don’t look any different from what I see here. They range from about 4-7 years of experience by now.

    3. Rob Lowe can't read*

      FWIW, I am a teacher, and the last time I was job hunting (2 years ago), I used Alison’s advice to craft my resume. I tried to link any descriptions of duties to an accomplishment (so “taught reading intervention groups” became something about “creating and using multisensory materials for reading intervention groups, resulting in X DIBELS scores”), but there were lines here and there that were just duties-oriented. I wasn’t a classroom teacher (interventionist/specialist) so I wanted to make clear what I did and did not do in my previous jobs.

      As I would assume is pretty normal for most job seekers in most fields, I sent out far more resumes than resulted in interviews, but I ended up with 3 job offers, so I feel comfortable saying that Alison’s resume advice applies in K-12 education, too.

      1. Anon E Mouse*

        Thank you! That’s incredibly helpful. I’m in a similar not-totally-a-classroom-teacher role and I have quantifiable achievement data to back up my accomplishments, like your example.

        1. Rob Lowe can't read*

          You’re welcome! I have actually never seen another actual teacher’s actual resume – just resumes for student teachers/recent graduates, which in my experience tend to look like the samples you find when you Google “teacher resume.” Those tend to just list duties, but even before I started reading AAM that approach never really seemed right to me. I’m demographically pretty much exactly like every other teacher in my job market – my degree and certifications and job titles don’t set me apart, my accomplishments in those jobs do.

  184. The Principal of the Thing*

    We have a new management structure, which includes a new level between Operations and direct managers. (The hierarchy is employee-manager-new middle manager-Operations) Each site has its own manager, and we now have somebody to report to, who travels among the sites. I was really looking forward to having this new level of support, and my new manager has been lovely and very professional so far.

    My problem is my team: after performance managing two problem employees, who both quit mid-pip rather than attempt to meet their SMART targets, a third, who was clearly close to a pip based on excessive use of sick leave, took stress leave before the pip could be implemented, and has made some false allegations about her team leader and myself. It looks like all of that will be resolved fairly, and we organised mediation to solve the problem.

    The trouble is what’s happening where I can’t see it: Facebook Messenger, to be exact. I’ve heard from some employees that they’ve received messages which ask for ‘more support during this trying time’ from the employee on stress leave, and have seen one screen capped message that uses those exact words. Those employees who have told me, sent a brief thank you and moved on, but they, (and I) are seeing a sudden shift in mood and tension, and we are all questioning what those employees who responded more personally are being told. This has led to a rash of inappropriate behaviours from lower level staff, such as the one who walked into my office yesterday and told me that ‘everybody on late shift is pissed off at their shift and won’t do it anymore’. I’m spending a good third of each day putting out HR spot fires by holding 1:1 meetings about minor complaints.

    tl;dr, how do you manage a problem you can’t see or prove? Do I keep wasting time on petty disputes? My new manager feels that if I keep addressing and documenting what is happening, it will go away, but I’m frankly exhausted.

    1. Graciosa*

      Think about what should be addressed and documented individually versus what should be addressed to the group as a whole.

      There are some things you can fairly tell the group. For example, you want them to bring you any problems directly – because you are the one who can act on them – but are not interested in hearing from people who appoint themselves to complain on behalf of others.

      You can talk about what kind a work place you want and what your behavioral expectations are. You can talk about general disciplinary processes (assuming it makes sense), and items such as keeping disciplinary proceedings private, or making it clear that people are not dismissed unreasonably.

      Sometimes, when there are recurring threads in items you’re dealing with repeatedly and piece meal, some general setting of expectations for the group can help settle this kind of thing down. In other cases, it has the opposite effect. I can’t tell which is more likely in your situation, but a good HR person – or your manager – may be able to help you.

      If not – or if the right choice is to keep dealing with it individually until it dies down – you definitely have my sympathy. Make sure you take care of yourself, and have good things to look forward to outside of work to keep your spirits intact.

      Best wishes –

    2. LCL*

      Your new manager is right, it will eventually go away, but it will get worse before it gets better. Late shift crews tend to have more of a prima Donna type worldview, because they typically get the short end of training, supplies, and management attention. Even though the lack of management is one reason they choose late shift, they still want to feel part of the group, yet independent. Like a teenager seeking independence, they will understand authority but won’t comply. I am going through something similar with one of our night rotations right now, and the ringleader is someone who has an extreme amount of turmoil in his personal life. I can’t fix him, but here are some suggestions anyway.
      1. Make the extra effort to include night shift in company news. E mail and tell them. Print out copies of informative email.
      2. Management has to say things more than once. I ask people questions about technical problems, and get them talking to the group. Then I will ask the same questions, because the audience is different. (We have a mix of short and long weeks.). And I let it be known that the reason I repeat my questions is because of the different audience, their input is that valuable.
      3. If you can, if it would help, pay a bit of OT at turnover to workers who will stay late and explain things.
      4. Tell late shift you value their time. Show it by giving them the choice of coming in early or late on OT for mandatory meetings, or you stay late/come in early and get the OT.
      5. As much as possible, have the same rules and expectations for all shifts.
      6. Have a mechanism for all shifts to ask for things, and have it be the same mechanism. This should be in writing. Tell everyone if their requests aren’t in writing you will forget.
      7. Talk to them. When someone tells you all of night shift is mad, ask them about each person on the shift, and what they think that person is mad about. Emphasize that you aren’t gossiping, and would rather hear it from all parties directly. Once you have an idea what the issues are you can start to address them. In my latest case, I had to point out that the conditions they were complaining about were true, but those conditions were exactly the same as they have worked under and benefited from earlier in their career.
      8. Stupid arguments from shift workers are arguments that, if the person got their way, would make things worse. Don’t ever call their argument stupid, but do point out the logical consequences. We had one work group that management used the nuclear option on-they abolished second shift because of bickering over job assignments.
      9. Stay off of Facebook. Let it be known you don’t check social media, but have friends who do, but you want people to come to you with problems.

      Sounds easy right? I predict a huge blowup in our groups future because of cutbacks to overtime. I will post asking for help when it happens…

      1. Not So NewReader*

        As someone who has worked later shifts, I would like to point out that not all late shifts feel the way that is described in LCL’s first paragraph.
        LCL, Ouch!

        Of the late shifts I have worked, it has never, ever been by choice. I had to take the later shift in the hopes of going on to earlier shifts in the future. Everyone else was told the same thing. We wanted to work were there was management and structure, we would take first shift in a heart beat. One place management threatened to do a way with our shift and that would have to mean the company was failing. In another instance the company responded by saying we were a dime a dozen and our replacements could be in place within a day or so.
        Our gripes where that:
        1) Management never observed the problems on the later shifts first hand. Management was home before dinner time every. single. day. without exception.
        2) First shift left way too much work incomplete. It was almost impossible to take up their slack and do our share of the work, too. Management would laugh at us if we complained. They would not even walk over to the work area to see what we were talking about.
        3) Machines would routinely break and there was no where to get back up. In some instances early shift would brag that they knew the machine was starting to go down and they would leave without calling in appropriate repair people. We fell even further behind on productivity.
        4) Cohorts who threatened physical violence were never reprimanded because back to #1, management was never available after hours. If someone found a mistake by one of these violent/angry people it became a bfd as to what to do.
        5) Sometimes people on earlier shifts stole things and fudged the paperwork so that it appeared that there were no shortages happening on first shift. In one case, we were not able to count before starting because first shift ran out the door the moment they saw us. We had to go directly to the work itself and could not do that count which would prove what was happening.
        6) Any advice management did give showed their lack of understanding. “Work smarter” or “learn to work with other people”. Their answers showed they clearly had not grasp of the problems nor would they any time soon.

        I do agree with the points above.
        1) If you do this, allot time to actually read the email/info. One company I worked for handed out 50 page “pamphlets”, no one read it. There was no time. They decided to have us initial a sheet. We initialed the sheet but we still had no time to read it.
        2) Yes, ask questions repeatedly especially when you do not see improvements or easing of bad situations.
        3 and 4) Realize that pay may not be enough. People may just be flippin’ tired. Don’t expect to dangle money and people jump. Additionally, they may not believe you are going to do something since no one else has.
        5) It’s nice to have rules. Follow up and make sure the rules are a) being followed and b) working as planned. Every boss makes rules, very few check to see how the rule is playing out in real life.
        6) Make sure you answer each and every question in a respectful manner. You will see stupid questions. I have always said that a stupid question telegraphs to me that I am not getting necessary information to the people who need it. It’s my fault not theirs.
        7) I don’t deal with generalities. If people are angry, then they need to come tell me what the problems are so we can look for solutions. Fortunately in my own setting I worked the same hours as my group, so access was easy for them. However if your people are working when you are not there, you are not accessible. So be careful about telling them to come see you. They will laugh behind your back. Set up evening office hours if need be.
        8) Yes, be logical and insist on logical responses.
        9) Tell them that handling company problems on FB is forbidden. Tell them that they can submit screen shots/ print outs to you and you will be speaking with individuals. Problems should be handled during their workday, not after hours and not on FB. One company I worked for forbid people from contacted those who were separated from the company under certain circumstances. Check with your legal on this.

        FWIW, I had the privilege of being there when a first shift person “saw the light”. She worked numerous night shifts and she said, “It’s worse than what you described, NSNR. It’s worse than that. You were right. First shift is way easier.”

  185. Jade*

    I don’t like my job, and I no longer even like the field I’m in. I’ve been entertaining the idea of a staffing agency to help me move into a different line of work, but I know literally nothing about how they operate or what to expect. Can anyone give me some recommended reading to help me figure this out?

    1. HelloWorld*

      My experience:

      Staffing agencies are not helpful for getting you into a new field. Their client is the employer. They find people who already fit into a narrow box.

      The only new field they can help you get into is being a staffer.

      I’d look at industries you’re jnterested in and set up some informational interviews.

      Or apply to jobs and tailor your resume to focus on the things you’ve done that transfer to the new job.

      If you’re really stuck on what to do, find a career coach/counselor/therapist.

  186. One Foot Out the Door*

    Here’s a quandry I’m facing (I might be late to the party on this, but worth a shot!)

    I’m planning to give notice to my employer within the next month. I’m waiting to hear from my partner’s job about when he is getting transferred and we are moving.

    My question is this: How much is it my responsibility in this period where I know I’m leaving but they don’t, to not take on new leadership responsibilities for projects that will most likely outlast my tenure? I usually take initiative and volunteer for a lot of leading of projects, and I’m hesitant to do so now for fear of leaving excess loose ends.

    Thoughts?

    1. The Principal of the Thing*

      If management knows you’re leaving, this will help them make these calls for you. If they don’t, I’d suggest having the conversation rather than taking on projects you won’t be able to finish, or behaving out of character.

      1. Sensual Shirtwaist*

        The key consideration is how likely the transfer is to actually happen. if your partner has applied for an internal promotion but hasn’t heard back, I’d keep quiet for a few more weeks. If this is a more-likely-than-not transfer (armed forces deployment, plant closing, end of a field placement), then a private talk with your boss like The Principal of the Thing suggests is the way to go.

    2. Sensual Shirtwaist*

      I was in this boat. Partner applied for new job overseas in late august. interviewed in october offered job in november.

      I did put myself forward for a few conferences that happened between application and acceptance. I decided that I needed to represent my company to the best of my ability as long as I was working there. I did try and co-author things with others in the office, and in one case suggested my co-worker attend a user group meeting instead of me (she didn’t want to go, so I got both the opportunity and the reputation as someone who looks out for her team).

      So, maybe dial back a bit if you usually volunteer for ‘lots’ of projects. otherwise focus on picking strong teams to work with you, and know who you will hand them off to once you’ve gotten things rolling.

      but be aware that transfers can take a lot longer to come through than you’d like and don’t leave yourself with nothing to do.

  187. jamlady*

    My boss mentioned vaguely that he’s concerned I’m not spending enough time with my coworker on a project he’s leading. My boss is definitely the type to say something directly to me, but we haven’t crossed paths lately and I don’t think he realized I wasn’t focused on the other project until today. The issue is that I have a different (much bigger and much more complicated) project I’ve been focused on and my direct reports are doing poorly. They are only here for another 3 months and we all agreed it’s too costly to replace them, but I’m finding too much of my time is spent dealing with their project. Plus, boss keeps changing details and not answering big problem questions for this project, so I’m having to deal with doing parts of his job for this project and going back and fixing things because of his regular mind changes.

    I sent an email out to my team leads letting them know I would be focused on other project for the time being and for them to move forward as instructed. I cced boss on this so he can see what I’ve done to prepare them for going mostly solo and so he knows I’m switching gears, but I’m annoyed at this project from all sides. It was poorly planned when handed to me and the staff hired to complete it aren’t doing a great job.

    Ay yi yi. Thank goodness it’s Friday.

  188. Bonky*

    Actual Slack conversation from this week with The Intern Who Tries Hard, But Is Not Being Managed (it shouldn’t make a difference, but probably does, that I am one of the three people who runs the organisation):

    Intern: “Is this done yet?”
    Me: “I’m sorry – what is ‘this’?”
    Intern: “It’s on the management system.”
    Me: “I still don’t understand what you’re talking about. Can you at least give me an issue number?”
    Intern: “Do I have to?”
    Me, starting to fume at the ears: “Yes.”
    Intern: “You people should be more up to date with this stuff.”
    Me: “Intern-Who-Tries-Hard, you are being unhelpful and I am very busy. Please give me an issue number or go and talk to your manager.”
    Intern: “343. It says it’s closed. Does that mean it’s done?”
    Me: (looking at issue, which clearly states that the editor has finished sub and copy and the matter has gone to print – why the hell is an intern from another department issuing jobs to my team in the first place?) “Yes. Yes, it does. Please send your manager over here. We need to talk.”

    We had words about how just delegating the job functions you don’t like to the intern you have begged for is not good for the organisation, your own profile, or the intern. Intern-Who-Tries-Hard is a horrible communicator and believes that if something is in her own head, everybody else must know it too. I am praying for the day in a month or so her contract runs out.

    1. neverjaunty*

      Unhelpful? Intern-Who-Tries-Hard is more like Intern-Who-Needs-A-Freaking-Attitude-Adjustment-Immediately.

      1. Bonky*

        I know armchair psychologising by amateurs is just the worst thing out there, but I’m more ready to have a little sympathy with this kid than I would usually in this situation; I am pretty sure that there’s some underlying thing that means she’s a long way from neurotypical. I’ve talked to her a lot about workplace norms and working culture, but I can’t see her making a success of a career as part of a team in any field – and that’s quite sad.

    2. lawyerkate*

      You’re nicer than I am – I would have fired the intern and put a written warning in the manager’s file.

    3. tigerStripes*

      When the intern said “Do I have to?”, I’d have thought about telling her about some of the many, many other things I’ve been working on.

  189. Sanity Check*

    I work for a small company (8 people), and this afternoon the part-time bookkeeper e-mailed me to say that Owner (my boss) had asked them to let me know my vacation/sick day balance, which is now for the period 7/30/2016 (anniversary of when I was first hired) to 7/29/2017, is x days (y annual vacation days – z days used between 7/30/16 and now). Up until now we’ve always had vacation/sick days by calendar year, and I used several vacation days in November/December of 2016, as I’ve done in years past, so as not to lose them. There hasn’t been any announcement that we’re switching from one system to another, and I feel like I’m kind of being shortchanged to have it announced now and – take effect retroactively? or something? instead of being prorated for 1/1/2017 — 7/29/17.

    So, two questions: 1) is this normal/to be expected from a small company and I should just let it go? 2) if not, what’s the best way to address this with my boss?

    1. Undine*

      I have no idea if this is normal, but if you want to address it, you can use Alison’s “This is part of my compensation” wording.

    2. TheLazyB*

      Whenever I’ve worked anywhere that’s switched, any changes have been pro rata’d. I’m in the uk though which may be different.

  190. Sensual Shirtwaist*

    Oof. So this morning i dialed into to a 50-100 person conference call for my division. The senior managment were giving there end of year summaries of the financial performance of thier accounts.
    One speaker was trying to explain the impact her clients reorg had on her business. She described it as “chinese baseball”, crediting a motivational speaker had introduced her to the term.
    What is ‘chinese baseball’? why after every inning you mix up the bases, so you never know where to run. Hillarious! (and racist)

    So … the management question is – the right thing to do is for someone senior to take this woman aside and tell her that her metaphor was offensive. Except… that leaves everyone else who was on the call unable to distinguish between “my company will correct mistakes in private and protect my dignity” and “my company doesn’t give a rip” thoughts?

    1. Jadelyn*

      I’d go with private conversation, followed by public apology. Don’t dress her down openly, because that’s unhelpful, but she does need to openly acknowledge the mistake and apologize for it.

    2. Undine*

      My company is forever sending out emails like “Remember, you can’t download copyright-protected videos using BitTorrent on your work computer — it’s grounds for firing!” or “Just because pot is legal doesn’t mean you can come to work stoned!” I always look at those and think — “Someone did that,” but I don’t know who. So you send out a coded message (We are committed to diversity) and also remind/tell people what the procedure is for reporting it if they feel something someone said was inappropriate.

      1. TheLazyB*

        I like this. Also, who says that?! In work no less! Smh.

        I wish someone had said in the moment ‘wow that’s racist’ but I must admit it’s harder on conference calls.

        Ooh, or maybe ‘I’m sure you haven’t thought about it but that’s a racist thing to say’.

        1. Sensual Shirtwaist*

          it wasn’t just a passing mention either – it was the leit-motif for the whole presentation. And when she introduced the idea she described the ‘rules’ in a completely ingenuous tone as if she thought this was an actual game that actual chinese people play.

          Come to think of it, our newly hired VP and the HR rep for our division were also in the meeting, so at least there’s that.

          1. TheLazyB*

            Oh my good god.

            I don’t understand how the hell anyone would ever think that’s a good example to use IN WORK.

            Oooooooooh I’ve got it. “I don’t understand the metaphor, can you explain why it’s ‘chinese’ baseball?” If that doesn’t bring it home what would..! There’s a funny metaphor in this, if you call it “management consultants’ baseball” or something. Why the everloving god would you use a race to describe it?!

  191. Helix*

    Just venting. New co-worker (less than two weeks, but over 30 and has been working) sent our boss something to review. When he didn’t get to it right away, she asked him (much less than 24 hours after sending it) if he’d gotten to it yet. No, he hadn’t. When he was working on it maybe a few hours later, she finally stands up and says, “I can’t stand it anymore,” proceeds to march over to boss’s cubicle–uninvited–to look at his screen while he was in the process of editing it, and continues, “What are you writing??”

    I’m still gobsmacked.

    4. Anonforthis*

      Sounds like my last work place, except they wouldn’t ask what you were writing.No, they would just stand there and watch you or get other people to report on you.

  192. HelloWorld*

    Just something interesting I’ve noticed…

    Does being “professional” really mean anything? As in “being professional.” (Not as in a “professional”… photographer, or whatever.)

    When I first started in the workforce, I thought it meant: devoid of personality. Like, you must wear black. Only talk about specific perinent things when you have to and be quick. You can smile but don’t laugh. Don’t talk about your weekend because it’s not work-related.

    Now, I’ve learned that showing you’re a human makes you do better. The more people you connect with, the more sales you make, the more recommendations you can get, the more people willing to help you.

    I feel like professional isn’t a thing, but “unprofessional” is. Like, as long as you’re not a tool and don’t wear your soccer uniform to work, and overall act like a regular human being, you don’t really have to worry about it.

    Besides, hiding your personality is a hell of a lot of effort.

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      I can see this interpretation, but in my experience, being “professional” means not letting your emotions drive your actions. It’s not that you can’t have emotions or personality, but don’t let personal feelings/emotions/circumstances impact or influence the work that needs doing. If they can happen parallel to the work, that’s great! Like friendly chats, etc. But official work communication should be free from *the feels.*

      So I think “professional” falls between “friend” and “drone.” I don’t look to be friends with coworkers–friendly, yes–but I do want to be pleasant acquaintances with them. I check in and say I hope they’re having a good day, ask them if they have fun weekend plans, etc., but I don’t meet up with them to go to the gym.

      Good question, though!

    2. Graciosa*

      Being professional does not require hiding your personality.

      It does require you to conform your behavior to professional norms.

      If a friend asked me to sell him something significantly below cost, my reaction might be along the lines of “He** no! Did you really just ask me that? Do you actually think I’m stupid enough to sell [Product] at [Proposed Price]? I’d be out of business in a week!”

      At work, speaking to a customer of our company, my professional reply would be more like, “I’m sorry, but I’m afraid that’s not something we’re going to be able to do.”

      I’m still a human being with a personality. Both those people in the example above may well know what I thought of the latest MCU movie – but I do speak to our clients differently than I speak to my purely personal friends.

      You’re right that relationships are critical to succeeding in business, but I would be careful about your assumption that not being a “tool” is enough. The higher you move in most companies, the more your relationship building skills will matter.

      1. HelloWorld*

        I feel like I act like that all the time.

        Does that mean I’m not fun?! I don’t get out enough?! I don’t know!!!

  193. HiItsAmy*

    For people who are lucky enough to be able to set their own work schedule, what do you think is the most productive work schedule? I’ve been trying three hour blocks throughout the day with breaks in between. But then I end up working really late. Do you think 9-to-5 is really the most productive schedule?

    1. jamlady*

      I prefer to work 7-3:30 during my short office days, and then to 5:30 during my long office days. My field days are usually 6:30-5 pm. And then depending on how my hours turned out, I work from home if I have 4 hrs or less left on Fridays.

      My schedule is very flexible, but I’m most productive if I head in very early when no one is around and head out early enough that I can relax or work out before dinner. I crash hard around 2:30 and I never really wake back up (no matter how much sleep I got or when I woke up).

      1. Rob Lowe can't read*

        My schedule is pretty fixed (elementary school teacher, the kids show up at the same time whether or not I do!), but despite how ugly it is getting up at 5, I prefer getting in by 6:20, getting in an hour of work (copying, planning, etc.) before the kids show up, and being able to walk out the door as soon as all my students are on the bus. Part of it is the traffic (staying an hour after school doubles the length of my commute home), but it’s also that I’m so worn out after a full day that I’m generally highly unproductive after school. I have a prep period at the very end of the day one day per week and I consistently get nothing done that period.

    2. Graciosa*

      I think this can vary by person.

      I used to be able to work early in the morning until midday, then take a long break until late afternoon/dinner time (I supported Europe and the US in the morning, and my clients in Asia later). It worked really well for me, although it’s a bit of a weird schedule.

      What does surprise me is that you seem to be trying to get in a big chunk of time without allowing yourself any “breaks” until you’ve plowed through your three hours. I have had occasional projects where I needed to be heads-down for a long stretch (and then looked up and realized I was starving and stiff) but that has not been the norm.

      Most health guidance suggests that you need to take small breaks at least hourly – raise your eyes from the computer, walk around a bit, take a quick drink or bathroom break. You come back more ready to focus.

      As for schedule, my preference is for earlier in the day, but I have a family member who does much better working later hours. It’s not always possible to do what you prefer, but when it is, working with your natural preferences improves your productivity.

      I’m not sure how helpful that is, but try some different options if you can and see what works best for you.

    3. One Foot Out the Door*

      I definitely think this depends on the person. For me, I’m very productive 8:30-4, with a few quick breaks. I need to decompress between tasks.

      My boyfriend is completely different. He’s best noon-late at night and can focus on one thing for hours and hours on end.

    4. emma2*

      I used to be allowed to set my own schedule in my previous contract. For me, it worked really well to work from 8:30-noon, take a 2 hour break, and then from 2-6 or 7. Then I would have dinner and call it an evening.

    5. Chaordic One*

      I seem to work best from 9:00 am to 1:00 pm and then from either 1:30 to 5:30 pm if I bring my lunch or 2:00 pm to 6:00 pm if I end up going home or eating out for lunch.

  194. Tim*

    We hired three new people this month and two are already gone. This is ridiculous. So much time, effort and money goes into the onboarding process and I’ve had it up to here with corporate recruiting. My boss technically gets the final say, but everyone has to go through corporate first, and the hiring process takes so long due to various regulatory and bureaucratic reasons that I don’t blame him for being hesitant to throw out the whole applicant pool and start over. Especially since it would probably still suck.

    It’s not like we don’t have any good applicants. Everyone who works here knows half a dozen good candidates who’ve applied and never gotten to an interview. We have a pretty good reputation in the industry and a lot of good people want to work here – but we also have a reputation for hiring an uncommonly high percentage of people who flame out spectacularly. You know your company is bad at hiring when people from other companies make jokes about it.

    No actual question, just venting…

      1. Tim*

        My company – in terms of recruiting – is very big on not being like all those other boring companies, we are young and hip etc. and we want people with big personalities! Since there is only so much personality you can get across in a resume/cover letter + phone screen while following professional norms, people who do things like send their resumes in boxes get interviews (okay, I don’t know if anyone has literally mailed their resume in a box, but they’ve certainly done other bizarre things). Then the job ends up being pretty similar to an equivalent job at one of those boring companies, and so the box resumes either don’t like it and leave or get fired for constant box resumes.

        1. neverjaunty*

          Someone needs to pull your company aside gently and point out that blaring about how young and hip you are is a thing only done by old un-hip people :(

    2. Rebecca*

      Has anyone asked the people who flame out so quickly exactly why they leave so soon? I suspect it’s something very basic, like the person chosen to train people is awful at it, there’s no checklist…etc.

      1. Tim*

        Recruiting does misrepresent the position, that’s one of the problems (see above reply to MissGirl). But when I say “flame out” I don’t mean that they get too frustrated with the learning process or the work/life balance turns out to be terrible or something – I mean more like “fired in an industry-wide scandal” (or at least industry-wide in my city, haha). Having sex at work is a big one.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Sounds like your company hires people with big personalities and then finds out that the new hires have…. well, big personalities.

          Unfortunately, it’s not a biz for big personalities. That is the fatal flaw in the logic.

    3. Stellaaaaa*

      We have a company like this locally. It’s one of the very few “legit” bigger businesses in the region so naturally they’re saturated with applications. Their problem is that there’s not a lot of room for growth and they don’t want to be in the position of assuming that their best candidates are only planning on staying 2-5 years. So they only hire people who are straight out of college with a BA in the precise field of business. This means that they’re rejecting people with advanced degrees/wider knowledge bases, or with solid bodies of relevant work experience. The company can’t pay these people what they’re worth but locally no one else can either. Obviously, this doesn’t stop the fresh entry level hires from leaving after 2-5 years anyway, to say nothing of the business lost by newbies making expensive mistakes that would have been caught by people with more experience. The company gets by on name recognition even though it is very well known for only hiring people who meet the bare minimum of the requirements.

  195. Arrggggg*

    There is a task that must be done every evening at my job. It isn’t a hard thing- maybe 2-5 minutes of work, but it has to get done. There are two types of employees at my job- the folks who need to be at work early and the folks who come in later and are supposed to stay later. The folks who come in later are supposed to cover this task most nights; I am an early-worker, but due to some special tasks I do, have made arrangements with boss to adjust my schedule so I am in the office late one night a week. On that one night, I do the nightly task. So that leaves three later-comers to cover the evening task four nights a week. Except all but one don’t want to do it, even if it is something they could easily do when they are already staying late.
    This week, a supervisor at work sent an email saying the co-worker who was supposed to do the task tonight is sick and could someone else please cover it? That night was not my late night. I responded to the email that I could adjust my schedule to cover task if I had to (and if boss was OK with it). Of the two other two late employees (not the one that was sick), one replied that she “couldn’t” do it and one did not reply at all. The one who didn’t reply at all has told me in the past that he doesn’t reply to email request for help from boss as “if you don’t respond, some other person will cover it.” He had to have seen the request, he’s on email all day. So, at boss’s request, I ended up staying late to cover the task, until 6:30 when the task was due. But both my co-workers were there until left- one left at the same time as me, the other was still there when I left (and not doing anything that couldn’t be interrupted for 2-5 minutes, which I know because we do the same sort of work).
    I’m frustrated because, while I’m happy to cover the task if it is a business need, coving the task means I get home REALLY late two nights a week. We are all peers and have the same status at work. How can I address this with my boss and/or my peers? I’m really tired this week from my two late nights and being this tired sometimes triggers migraines. I am also tired of being the early worker who, due to one scheduled late night, is asked to cover late nights more often than my one night(to be clear, I am being gracious by cover the task on the night I am staying late- my boss does not require me to cover it). It means I’m working 10-12 hours days twice a week (although boss lets me adjust my schedule somewhat, if I have meetings I can’t get out of early in the AM, I end up working more than my 40 hours.)

    1. Just Me and My $0.02*

      “Sorry, I already covered my duties for this on Wednesday.”

      There’s no reason for you to be the fallback just because others are hoping to avoid something that’s supposed to be part of their duties. “No” is a complete sentence.

    2. neverjaunty*

      The one who didn’t reply at all essentially just told you “I’m happy to stick YOU with the work. Screw your schedule.”

      So call him out. “It’s not my late night, but my understanding is that Fergus is available.”

    3. animaniactoo*

      Seriously, there are 3 people who are already going to be there. Don’t volunteer. Let them and boss figure it out. At a minimum, boss should really not be accepting your offer without them giving a damn good reason why they can’t do it. Since they are, don’t make it so easy for them going forward. Right now, the person who didn’t respond is right that someone else will cover it – you.

      1. Colette*

        Agreed. Don’t volunteer unless your boss asks you directly (I.e. Not on an email to a group). You came in early and are planning to leave early – there’s no reason to change that because someone doesn’t want to do their job.

      2. Not A Morning Person*

        Yes! Quit volunteering! And if you feel so compelled that you just cannot ignore the request and have to reply to the email then you can just respond as recommended by neverjaunty. “I’m n”ot going to be here, you’ll need to assign it to one of the “late workers” this evening.”

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Most bosses would just say, “last one out has to do x, if it’s not done, it’s a write up.”

      I hope your boss grows a spine. Meanwhile don’t enable him to coast as he has been. Let him know that you are willing to do your once a week share but someone else has to jump in.

  196. NASA*

    Rage. The following occurs over and over again on our site’s registration page and it really makes me want to smash pottery:

    Site Name:
    Site Address (line 1):
    Site Address (line 2):
    City:

    About 65% of the time I see this:

    Site Name: Not even their DBA
    Site Address (line 1): 123 Main Street Ste B
    Site Address (line 2):
    City: San Francisco

    About 30% of the time I get this:

    Site Name: General Business name that doesn’t help differentiate it from anyone else
    Site Address (line 1): 123 Main St Ste B
    Site Address (line 2): San Francisco
    City: San Francisco

    Does no one realize that Address line 2 is for your suite, unit, floor, apartment, room #, etc… Have you never ordered anything from Amazon which has an amazingly clear explanation on what to put in Address line 2?!?

    People with professional degrees fill these out. Don’t even get me started when someone writes “Union Street Office” as their site name…No you clown, a simple Google search based on your poorly entered address told me that your site is called “Teapots and Sunshine Union Street Law Firm Surgical Center”.

    I would request to update the registration page to add “Put your suite # here!!!!””, but we’re switching to a new registration system (hopefully) soon.

    1. Hilorious*

      Some responses could possibly be explained by Google’s autofill feature. It’s constantly sticking my apartment number in dumb places because I accidently set it up the wrong way and am too lazy to fix it.

    2. Stellaaaaa*

      You can put your room/apartment/suite number on the second line. Amazon will print out your shipping label that way, and the postal service or courier will have no problem figuring out where to leave the package. I understand that you were giving it as an example, but I’m just saying. As for your actual point, people aren’t likely to change the way they write their own addresses if they’ve never had a problem getting their mail.

    3. Onymouse*

      If the field permits I *always* enter the suite number as part of Address 1. I’d rather not risk Address 2 not being properly printed on the shipping label (as has happened)

    4. PepperVL*

      What your company needs may be different, but the USPS prefers apartments, suites, floors, etc. to be on the same line as the street address. (And, interestingly, since the machines read from the bottom up, you should actually put that information on the first line, not the second. (This is for mass-mailing, not something everyone has to worry about, but still.)

      C/O OR ATTENTION
      COMPANY NAME OR PERSON
      APARTMENT/SUITE/FLOOR
      STREET ADDRESS
      CITY STATE ZIP
      COUNTRY

      And, yes, they want it in all caps. Also between 12 & 20 point font, in black ink.

  197. Just Me and My $0.02*

    I’ve been in my new position for four weeks now, and the difference is astounding. I hadn’t realized how much it mattered to me to get regular feedback, or that I wasn’t ever getting that. I’m kind of excited to see what else becomes an epiphany in this new role.

  198. Paquita*

    Really late to Open Thread this week. :( I got written up today for the second time. Apparently I have been making too many careless mistakes. I am so frustrated. Second ‘counseling’ is serious. I was told there must be IMMEDIATE improvement. I don’t know what to do. Some of the examples seemed very nit-picky but I can’t argue with management. (During our monthly work group meeting a change in contacts for a customer was discussed. I did not change the information on the shared spreadsheet the very minute I sat back down at my desk. Really?) I am so stressed about this. DH only works part time due to some health issues and I carry the insurance so I really don’t want to lose this job. Any advice?

    1. animaniactoo*

      How long after you sat down at your desk was it that you changed that contact info?

      Can you ask for “top priority” actions coming out of a meeting? E-mail your boss faster when you have too much on your plate? “I have X, Y, Z, and ZZ things with competing deadlines, and may not be able to get them all finished, can you please advise which projects take top priority right now?”

      Can you setup checklists for some things that you’re getting wrong? Take an extra few minutes before finalizing something and considering it done for a last review?

    2. NASA*

      The biggest issue I see with someone making “careless” mistakes is that they are rushing. Excluding the part where someone wanted you to update the shared spreadsheet immediately(!), slow down a bit and take your time. Have all the boxes been checked? Have you carefully read the instructions or are you answering the question that is being asked. All my careless mistakes are due to me not paying attention/lacking focus or me rushing to get through something.

      Also, I use To Do lists daily and I have to physically write it down (adding things to your calendar may work better for you), otherwise I will forget.

    3. Colette*

      Getting a customer contact right is really important, so it should be a priority. Customers are why they pay you to do stuff. I mean, if it took you an hour to update, that’s one thing – if it took 3 days and you only updated it after a colleague contacted the wrong person, that’s another.

      Why are you making mistakes? Are you forgetting things? Putting aside things you don’t think are important? Not sure how to do them? Not aware that you are responsible for the task? Working too fast?

      Once you understand why you’re making mistakes, your next step is to fugure out what you can do differently so that they stop. Checklists? Asking your boss for priority calls? Asking colleagues how to use a system you’re struggling with?

  199. Intern*

    How much can you push back with a professor? My husband is getting the opposite advice for his resume that we’ve seen here- put an objective, include references, go to 2 pages, etc. Is there a polite way for him to bring up that it might not be best practice/common to format a resume that way? For what it’s worth, the class is a 1 credit seminar aimed at job hunting/networking in his field and he knows the professor pretty well.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Could he just say, “This is the opposite of what I’ve heard from hiring managers”? But if it’s a class aimed at job hunting, the professor is probably pretty wed to his terrible advice.

    2. Becca*

      Sounds about par for the course based on similar issues in posts on here… Oof! Sorry to your husband and his classmates. :/ It’s really hard to have a teacher who you know is just spouting nonsense— I had a history teacher like that a couple years back and I was fuming SO often.

      If he would rather maintain the good relationship and just get the grade, he could make a resume for the class and use a different one for actually applying to jobs. He could try talking to his professor in private if they have a good relationship, but that’s not much help to his classmates. If he really wants to shake things up, he could ask in class about the difference between what he’s hearing in class versus he’s seen on many workplace advice blogs.

      If he’s feeling SUPER ambitious, he could start a study based on the sending out resumes in the different formats and see who gets more responses… XD

      1. Becca*

        Oh, yes, of course — as opposed to “workplace advice blogs” use “hiring managers” because that’s the real crux of the matter…

    3. Stellaaaaa*

      Is it possible that his advice, while not ideal, wouldn’t be egregious in this particular field? The professor is likely giving advice based on how he got his own job and how he and his colleagues/people in that field do their hiring. This is less a devil’s advocate thought and more an “academia can be weird and insular” thought. Along those lines, has your husband asked about making resumes for jobs outside of academia, or pointedly in the corporate/office-building world? It could help if that distinction was put out there. A lot of professors assume that all of their best students will want to be professors too.

    4. Chaordic One*

      I might just humor the professor and create a resume that has what he wants for the class.

      But I wouldn’t actually use it or send it out.

  200. KTB*

    Quick vent: There’s a lady in my office that I JUST CAN’T STAND. While I disliked her before, she’s gunning to regain a fairly meaningless responsibility that has passed on to someone else in the past months, and this has solidified my opinion. The person now in charge is completely competent, but she’s running him over through sheer volume. She is always either late to or absent from meetings, has to interject her opinions about things that are already decided, restates things that were just discussed as “reminders”, and constantly makes gum noises or giggles or “oh yeahs” or “uh-huhs.” The meetings are at least half as long again when she does come. I am snippy for at least an hour after any interaction with her, I get so hyped up and annoyed by her sounds and brash loud voice. I was actually -rude- to her today, which I feel terrible about. This has never happened to me before! I usually like everyone!

    1. Rebecca*

      I think every office has that one person that one of us just can’t stand. It’s like going to the dentist for a cleaning or filling. You know you have to do it, it’s going to be unpleasant, but it will be over at some point and you can go on with your day. It’s the same with this person. IIRC, there are also some great articles here about redirecting meetings back to the agenda, like “Thanks Fergus, but we’ve been over that, so let’s move on to item B”. You could also pretend she is a cartoon character with a brash voice and smile to yourself when she talks. Good luck!

  201. HiItsAmy*

    I hope this isn’t an inappropriate question…

    For people who work a desk job where your job is based on deliverables, and basically all on the computer… what percentage of your day are you actually “working”? Or extremely productive?

    It kind of seems like… most people take mini breaks every hour… and people zone out sometimes… and talk to coworkers… and get snacks… and goof off…

    And not in a “bad” way, but just normal human behavior.

    Does it vary by time of day? If you work 8 hours, are you really WORKING 8 HOURS?

    1. Stellaaaaa*

      It largely depends on everyone else acting in good faith. When I start a new job, I look at the people around me and try to match their speed. I’ve been in hourly positions before where the efficient workers ended up clocking fewer hours and taking home smaller paychecks than the employees who weren’t as good and I don’t think anyone wants that.

      1. Mirax*

        I’ve been the efficient worker clocking fewer hours–I think one of the most important things to learn as an hourly worker is how to pace yourself so that you’re not shorting your own paycheck.

  202. Candi*

    A FB FOAF was complaining about a coworker, and posted a picture with this phrase:

    “The first rule of Dunning-Kruger Club is… you do not know you’re in Dunning-Kruger Club.”

    (I also pointed them to this site for advice. :P )

  203. Dienna Howard*

    I’ve been lurking here for a few weeks and this is my first time commenting. I’m in the process of looking for a full-time job (I’m currently working the odd temp jobs and online transcription, but am looking for steady work) and this site has advice that’s been invaluable to me. I don’t have specific questions at the moment but will share them when I do. I just wanted to make my presence known!

    And some of the stories I’ve read here are a trip – sharing a bed in a hotel room with a co-worker, being fired for not donating a kidney, and a woman who made an executive assistant watch her kids?! My word!

  204. Lolei*

    Hi All & Happy Friday!
    I would really appreciate any tips on how I can get a teaching position that is fully REMOTE. It must be remote. I have a career in Marketing (7 years) and a Masters in Management. I am not particular about the course I would teach, it could be anything from Marketing to English, to Business to Career Development. Ideally I would like something that pays $20-$30k a year. That’s ideal. But I am certainly flexible as I know the pay/salary varies. Ideally adjunct professorship or teaching assistant etc. I am not picky on the title. FYI I do not have prior teaching experience or any publications or “connections.”/ I would appreciate if you have tips on how to accomplish this (other than just looking at school websites and looking for positions). I am looking for any insider tips, school recommendations for employment, suggestions on how to stand out – or what has worked for others. Thanks :)

    2. Anatexis*

      I’ve taught online for 10 years at two different colleges. Being hired to teach remotely with no teaching experience is going to be tough. The market is saturated with people who do have teaching experience. So if you can highlight any training/instruction you’ve done, that would help. Also, if you’ve ever taken an online course, mention that. You also want to show that you are student centered and comfortable with technology.
      The poster below mentioned the remote job search function at Higher Ed Jobs which is good. Southern New Hampshire University has a large online teaching force (I do not teach for SNHU).
      Look up the Adjunct Project online to get an idea of the pay per course at any schools you are interested in. Some places pay as low as $1800/course.
      I would recommend becoming at least familiar with some of the various LMS out there (Blackboard Learn, D2L, Canvas, etc. ) though if hired you’ll probably be trained on the relevant LMS.
      If you have specific questions I can try to address them.

  205. Audiophile*

    This is tough. Do you have experience working remotely?

    I don’t teach, no teaching degree or any real interest in it, but I did work in education briefly. I have no advice as I just fell into it.

    I will say, HigherEdJobs, allows you to search for remote positions and I’ve seen remote teaching positions pop up. I don’t know how common that is.

  206. HiItsAmy*

    I want to know whatever happened to the person who wanted to the person in the “recommended reading,” who wanted to be hired as a “visionary.”

    I really hope they started their own companies and learned execution was more important than ideas. Haha

  207. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    At work, I got a desperate email from my dad that (after I reinforced boundaries/told mom to ease up on the judgmental controlling behavior and her hotly defensive) mom was having a meltdown at work.

    This led to me losing concentration at work. My boss was about to reprimand me but i apologized and explained family matters, so hes understanding for now. Plus I’m moving out of my apt that I paid for (parents found for me) for a better place closer to work.

    The apt thru parents is overheated, I wake up suffocating at 3 am daily, and the metal on the sink is moldy and falling off in chunks. Maintenance never fixes anything so I’ve paid repairs myself.

    So, moving out early next week. Asserting boundaries=mom meltdown. I’m emotionally drained but feeling more free…

    1. TheLazyB*

      Next boundary: dad, don’t email me with that kind of information while I’m in work….. or I’ll block your emails. (You don’t have to necessarily do that, but he doesn’t have to know)

      Well done on the boundary setting. I’ve been doing that too, albeit not so drastically.its hard.

      1. Observer*

        Why not block his emails? Or set up a rule to automatically go to a separate folder that you only look at whenever works for you?

        1. TheLazyB*

          Not sure if the question was aimed at me or not? Carmen may not want to, depending on the circumstances.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Many years ago my family would call my work or come in because of latest “crisis”. I had to put my foot down strongly. DO NOT CALL/SEE ME AT WORK, EVER. The nature of the situation was my father had to handle it, it made absolutely no sense to call me at all. Turns out these family members were VERY interested in pointing out to me just how big I failure I was. It took me a while to catch on.

    2. Dienna Howard*

      I’m sorry to hear that. Some parents do not know how to let go and let their adult children be adults, and they mistake codependent behavior for love. Setting boundaries with family is hard, but the more you do it the easier it’ll become. I commend you for setting those boundaries!

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your mother’s behavior is going to get worse, before it gets better. Similar to the way toddlers react to changes they aren’t on board with, in fact. As it begins to dawn on her that tantrumming will not alter your trajectory, the frequency and duration of the meltdowns should reduce. Stay the course. We’re all rooting for you.

  208. Nurse person*

    I started working there a couple of weeks ago. When my employer hired me, I was told that I would receive full-time and would be given a schedule with when and at what time I would work. To this day I have not gotten a schedule, my employer keeps telling me that she will call me either the day before or the day of, to tell me to what time to come to work. In addition, I have been told more than once to come to work a certain time and when I get there, I am told that someone else is doubling their shift (or the supervisor tells me that they don’t need anyone else) and I am no longer needed. Basically, I go to work for nothing those days and when I talk to my supervisor, she makes excuses and says that she’ll call me to tell me when to come. I’m not reaching full-time. Is it my right to be given the full-time hours that I was told to be given when I was hired?
    Yesterday, I reported to work on time and was told that I wasn’t needed today because there was already enough people working the shift. Consequently, I did not get to work my shift and lost a day of work.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      NYS has call in pay. They call you in, they have to pay you for four hours, whether you work that or not.

      Yeah, quit this job and find another where the boss actually respects the employees.

  209. smokey*

    Which professions don’t have to meet the salary test for overtime? I feel like I’ve exhausted Google and all I ever see are “some, such as physicians and teachers.” Is there a list somewhere?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      The big three are doctors, lawyers, and teachers. There are some others, but they tend to be really niche (certain types of agriculture workers, for example). Weirdly, I’ve never seen one list with them all in one place.

  210. Robbie*

    I know this is a little late, but: Does anyone have any experience with the Americans with Disabilities Act? Specifically, when your superiors aren’t willing to talk accommodations. I’m in that situation right now and I need to do something, but I don’t know what.

    I have a disability that isn’t very visible, but prevents me from doing certain things. I’ve had this disability for a while and I receive regular treatment for it.

    I discussed it with my boss a while back, but he wasn’t willing to give any accommodations (he directly said this). I was too afraid to press the issue, being on probationary status because I just started. HR gave a few recommendations, but I didn’t press the accommodations talk because my boss was clearly unhappy with it.

    Now we’re in performance review season. I got my review on Monday and I was told I’m being put back on probation because of difficulties I have had over the last few months. Among the stated difficulties are things I struggle with because of my disability. I went to HR with this but they weren’t willing to get involved even after I directly said “I think this is covered by the ADA.” They literally said “the performance reviews have nothing to do with us, we can’t do anything about them. You need to speak with your manager.”

    I am so frustrated with this that I can’t talk to my manager, because I know I’d end up losing my cool and telling him I’m going to the EEOC. I work in a tech startup which is large enough to fall under the ADA. The only person above the HR rep I talked to is the head of HR and I’m not sure if I want to go that route, because I might be marked as a troublemaker and laid off ASAP.

    But the only other route I see is to get the EEOC involved. And if escalating internally would be bad for me, escalating to a government agency would be even worse. I’m sure that it’d be a buffer against retaliation at least to some extent, but it’d destroy any chances at promotions, raises, or getting a favorable reference whenever I leave this org. I’m very nervous about what to do.

    I know this is a late post, but thank you for reading.

    1. Robbie*

      As a side note, most of management and the employees of this company are European. Whenever we go out for lunch or drinks after work they always ask me about American things. So I think they just might not know what US employment regulations require. I’m mad about this, but I don’t want to go in there mad because they probably don’t know what the issue is.

      1. Just Me and My $0.02*

        Is everyone from Hr also European? You may need to point out that this is required by law, and by taking no action, they aren’t in compliance with ADA. Your performance is affected by not having a reasonable accommodation, which IS their responsibility, even if the review itself is not. I believe protection from retaliation is also covered by ADA, so they need to step up and cover the company’s legal compliance, even if your boss is being a jerk.

        Did your boss say why he isn’t willing to do this? Does he think the accommodations are going to be too costly? You might want to come up with some alternatives that would be reasonable for the company and suitable for you, it that’s possible.

        1. Robbie*

          No, only my manager is European. He seems to have a “tough love”/”sink or swim” type of management philosophy. The problem is that because we’re a startup, he’s also a C-level executive, even though we meet the employee count requirements to fall under the ADA. So I’m worried that HR might not want to act because of that.

          I brought up the accommodations idea when there was an incident where I needed to cover for someone else with a different role, but couldn’t do a satisfactory job because of my condition. Satisfactory job is the key phrase: I didn’t refuse to do anything, and I did the best I could, but I received negative feedback on my performance. Also, he knew of the condition before this incident.

          Afterwards, my boss said he understood and wouldn’t hold it against me, but when I suggested an accommodations conversation with us and HR, he dismissed the idea. I didn’t get to suggest anything. Again, because I was on my probationary period at the time, I didn’t push it. Also I can be very blunt and I was aware I might’ve said it in a very aggressive way like “look, it doesn’t matter what you consider necessary, it matters what the law requires.” Looking back, I probably should have pressed it with HR, but I’m concerned with what I can do now.

          The logic to me seems inconsistent: if he thinks I’m not able to perform aspects my job that are affected by my condition at the level I should be able to, then he should be willing to discuss accommodations with me.

          1. Observer*

            You can still go back to HR. Tell them that they are not accommodating you, and that needs to change. They can’t force him to give you a good review, per se, but they CAN push the fact that you NEED to be accommodated, and that until that happens, you cannot be punished in any way – and that giving you a bad review IS a punishment.

            1. Robbie*

              That makes sense to me. Thank you! I really like the phrasing you used.

              I’m just afraid to talk to HR again because my boss is the CTO. But I’m working against it by telling myself there’s always the chance that someone will listen if I speak up for myself, while they can’t if I don’t say anything.

      1. Robbie*

        Thank you! I’ve looked at this site and it has some nice suggestions. I’m also going to call their phone number on my Monday lunch break. I’m very anxious over this but I’m also optimistic that I’ll be able to resolve it without a lot of tears or bad feelings.

        And also going to bcc/forward every relevant discussion I’ve had with my boss (there’s a “rejected” notice for a meeting invite about accommodations) to my personal email. Just in case.

  211. Mark*

    I know this is late, but I need advice on a work issue.

    I work for a farm and it is imperative for my job and the sustainability of the farm to get at least 50 CSA (community supported agriculture) members by March 1st.

    I have taken some really amazing, lovely, bright, and colorful photos that really show the spirit of the farm and what we offer as part of our CSA. These photos include images such as bountiful harvests, animals in good health, people on the farm having fun, and landscapes of the farm taken on glorious summer days.

    We have a woman who works on the farm part time who is in control of all of our social media. She has outright rejected my photos, barely updates our social media accounts and website, and has chosen outright terrible photos that show the farm in a negative light, such as pitiful examples of our harvest and people off in the distance where you can’t really see what’s going on in the photos.

    I have presented a showcase of my images to her and asked if I could also include my photos on our social media, but she outright refuses, using a myriad of excuses, such as that people have too short of an attention span for too many images, that she just put something up and will have to wait a week, or she needs to wait till this or that holiday is over. This has been going on since October 2016 and I can’t get her to budge.

    My job really depends on whether I am able to secure these members and it’s become super hard when I feel like the farm is represented in a bad light all over the internet and I have no power to change this. I have spoken with my boss about this many times, but he only states that he sees both sides.

    I have another meeting with him coming up this Wednesday and I really need to present this issue in another way so that he will see the light. We are a growing farm I’ve been struggling to get anyone at my job to understand the importance of having a great social media presence with really lovely photos.

    Does anyone have any advice for how I could manage this, get the images up on the site, without stepping on any toes or causing any more issues. I’m at my wits end here. Any help appreciated.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Since you have a deadline of March 1, any way to convince your boss you should take over social media entirely as an experiment for the next month, but stress that it wouldn’t be permanent?

    2. tigerStripes*

      Has your boss told you what the other side is to this? I’m not sure what the social media’s person point of view is, other than maybe she only wants to show her own pictures.

      Does the boss agree that the social media person’s pictures present the farm in a negative light?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Not trying to be mean, but if your only hope of getting members is some pictures on a webpage, you might be in trouble.
      What other plans do you have?

      As far as social media, why not set up a personal page, title it something like “Why Mark likes Sustainable Farm.” Put your pics on it. Type your reasons for joining, reciprocal links, and there you have it.

      She may have a point about too many pics. I hate too many pics and too many clicks. I am a click counter. How many clicks does it take for me to find what I want.

      Honestly, when members find out how this place is run, I wonder if they will stay.

  212. Supportive Spouse*

    The hubby has found his dream job and he’s considering including a video cover letter. The job posting does not ask for one, so I’m thinking no. It’s a finance job for a non profit media company.

  213. strangewords*

    I’ve read here for a while, but I’ve not posted before.

    I work for a small company with exactly 15 employees, most of whom are out in the field all day. We have two offices, each with an office manager and a customer service rep in during office hours. Like most small companies, we really all do a job and a half. We have a fairly new CSR hire who has come to us with a diagnosis of bipolar disorder.

    She’s been absent a lot, she’s late a lot, and she has had a few meltdowns in the office. I work as office manager in one office, and she is in the other, and she has antagonized her manager enough that her manager no longer feels safe working around her; the CSR in question has called the owner of the company and accused her manager of lying on time sheets, of being out to get her fired, and went so far as to say she had an undiagnosed mental illness. That office manager has been with us three years, we know her and we trust her. CSR leaves her desk without warning for long periods of time, has talked about committing suicide – it’s a drama-filled painful time. On top of that, we’ve just switched to an entirely new software platform and workflow, and we all know how smoothly those go (*headdesk*). CSR’s manager finally said that she will quit rather than work with her anymore, and I understand that. I worked that office Friday so she could be away from all of this for a bit. CSR took several long breaks without saying anything after coming in three hours late, essentially dropping her job onto me when I was already trying to do two.

    We’re just beginning to pick up from our slow season, and CSR broke down crying and asked how we manage when we’re really busy. I went over daily routines with her, reminder her that the new software is slowing us all down, and mentioned that if that day was a normal day for her, she was simply away from her desk too much to stay caught up. She accused me of not caring, of taking her breaks from her, cried more for a while, and then walked out. Just – left.

    We decided to make that permanent, but she called the owner at about 8:00 pm and said she wants her job – but with later starting work hours and lighter job responsibilities. Our busiest phone times are from 8-10am, and we ask about punctuality in the interview. The owner is willing to offer her a slightly late start – if she moves to my office, and my admin goes to the other office. I’m older, more experienced, and have a lot of experience dealing with mental illness, since I have one of my very own. I understand the logic behind the office change – and the owner works in the office next to mine.

    I’m already working 50 hour weeks. I’m tired. I do not know how to handle the prospect of an admin who will always be late (and my office is farther away from her home than the one she works at now, so I fully expect she would be very late with my city’s sucktacular traffic). In the morning I am already busy, and I’m often at my desk by 7:00 am. I’m taking work home and working on the weekends, and I am hourly. I can’t absorb the busiest phone hours, and do my job, *and* reduce the requirements of her job without being consigned to permanent 50-60 hour weeks.

    I don’t even know what to do. I think this is an unreasonable accommodation, and I don’t really expect CSR will want the much longer commute anyway, but I am a ball of stress. We could offer more frequent breaks, but they would need to be shorter. We can let her leave early for therapy and on stressful days. We have asked her to stay home when she is particularly struggling, so there is that option.

    I want to speak with my boss tomorrow, so I know what will be happening on Monday. I also just want to pop a xanax and forget I have a job entirely for a while. Please excuse typos, if you’ve read this disorganized mess – I’ve had a bourbon (and a half).

    If you made it through this semi-coherent rant, thank you.

    2. Observer*

      Your Boss has already made the offer, so you are probably stuck with it. HOWEVER that doesn’t mean you can’t do anything to ameliorate the situation.

      1. What does “slightly later start” – 8:30 or 10:00?

      2. You need to let your boss know that some things are going to have to be dropped if this happens. Do it in email so that if (or rather when, I suspect), the CSR winds up getting fired, you both have a documentation trail that you genuinely tried to accommodate her, and that these were not minor issues. It’s easy to see a schedule change as a minor thing, and you want to document that it really is not minor at all.

      3. Be very clear with her what the accommodation entails, and what it doesn’t. ie She needs to schedule her breaks, they can’t be longer than x amount of time, etc. Yelling at customers or at anyone else, for that matter, are NOT acceptable. Whatever other items need to be on that list should be there. She should be told this in person and then followed up with an email.

      4. Document what happens, and be ready to drop the hammer if you need to. This person needs to shape up, because even if you were not dealing with the software changeover, she’s causing significant problems and you need to have that stop.

      Lots of luck with this. It’s hard and frustrating.

  214. Chaordic One*

    There is so much going on. I can see that you are already stressed out from what has become your office’s normal routine, the new inefficient computer system and then having to deal with a difficult co-worker with bi-polar disorder on top of that. I just don’t know what you could say to your boss. He’s probably stressed out, too.

    You have my sympathy. I’d love to hear how the meeting went, if you are up to following up next week.

    1. strangewords*

      Thank you!

      I’m chatting with my boss today, to figure out the best short-term plan so everyone can regroup. He’s an awesome boss, and definitely stressed out as well.

      I know all of this is temporary, but man, has it been a lot at once.

  215. AAM Newbie*

    How do I demand “big raise or I leave” without sounding threatening?

    Sorry if this has been covered previously at AAM, I’m sure it has. Some important aspects to the situation:
    – I love my job and don’t particularly want to leave, but the low pay is unsustainable for my family. I know that if I tried to leave, there is a good chance I could make more money elsewhere, but I would be sacrificing a lot of the intangible benefits of my current job; short commute, great co-workers and team, engaging mission, etc.
    – I am a strong performer in my role and there is a good chance that if I left, they would be in a bad situation
    – Performance-based pay increases are rare; we are a family-feeling non-profit and our compensation system rewards longevity rather than performance. I know of several instances in the past when special increases have been granted, as I received one last year, but this is rarely done. The current political administration also has us concerned to give any raises at all because of how some upcoming changes might affect our revenue.

    So basically, I need to communicate to my boss that remaining in my position at my current salary is not an option for my family, but in a way that doesn’t sour the relationship. I need either a big raise or a different job; I’d prefer the raise! But I don’t think that demanding it will go over well in my friendly, team-oriented workplace culture. Help!

    Thanks

    1. Observer*

      Explain that you can’t afford to stay in the job at the rate they are paying you, and you know you get more money elsewhere. Then *identify how they can give you the raise*.

      You absolutely should not need to do this. But, it shows that you understand the problem the place faces and that you really DO want to stick around.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I would just ask them to do their absolute best on a raise for you. I would say nothing further, definitely no threats.

      If it’s not the raise that you feel is right, then start your job search.

      There is no way to say “give me a raise or I quit” without getting people nervous and upset.

  216. Anon in Marketing*

    I hope there are still people reading this far down thread!

    I work in a marketing agency on 3 different projects. Two of these are led by my manager, the third one has a team made of a motley crew that was pulled from different team on an ad hoc basis.
    That project has a general problem of complete lack of leadership. It took me several months to realize this was the problem, but from the start I found it to be disorganized, and struggling a lot more than it should – we are selling an awesome product, to people who are true fans. However, both in the agency and on the client side, the people in charge don’t have clear goals, keep changing the goal posts, go back on materials and plans that had been previously approved… The client is not an expert in my domain, so I’ve done a fair bit of educating, and then re-educating as they keep forgetting what I tell them. I’m usually seem around the workplace as a very patient person, but i’m reaching the end here.

    This project is supposed to take only 20% of my time, but with all the unnecessary extra stuff it’s seriously eating into my other projects. I’ve mentioned my frustrations to my manager who is trying to have me taken off the project, but there is no one to replace me, we have a hiring freeze, and this is considered a priority client.

    So basically I need:
    1) Survival tips for the foreseeable future and
    2) Ideas on how I could escalate the problem to the right persons. I can’t fix the client, but I feel like the lack of leadership on our agency’s side is something I could influence, I just can’t figure out how to do so without risking to burn bridges.

  217. Harukogirl*

    I have a question.
    I’m a “newly minted” librarian (May, 2016). I work part-time as a children’s librarian in one city, and “on-call” in another. P, the on-call library, was where I did my internship. As soon as I graduated, THEY called ME and asked me to work as a Casual librarian in children’s. I’ve been there for 9 months, plus 6 months at library S.

    Library P just posted a part-time children’s position. Various co-workers at P library encouraged me to go for it and told me they thought I was totally qualified and that they hoped I got it. I am well-liked by the patrons – at least once a week a parents asks for what days I usually work so that they can make a point of coming in then (best compliment ever, IMO).
    Job Requirements: MLIS OR 2 years full time public library experience. I have my MLIS, and the equivalent of 1.5 years full-time experience (once you pro-rate all my part time experience. My manager at S library knows I applied – she even told me she hopes if I get it I can do both jobs, because she doesn’t want to lose me, but that she knows it’s a lot less of a commute for me (10 min instead of an hour) so she wishes me the best. She offered to be a reference.

    The P city just emailed me and told me I did not get an interview because “other candidates had more full-time experience.”

    Is this normal? I know I’m well-liked at my library – heck, they hired me AFTER my internship and give me like 2-3 shifts a week as a casual. I have VERY relevant experience – I WORK THERE. AND I have 6 months as a permanent children’s librarian, so experience in all the associated duties – storytime, collection development, program planning, weeding, etc. I’m also fluent in a foreign language, have a year of experience teaching in a foreign country, and have 8 years of customer service experience. So I was beyond qualified. And I’ve never made any secret of the fact that my goal is to work at P library.

    Can city HR just pass me over because some other candidate has say 3 years experience instead of 2, when (imo) mine is would be more relevant considering I work in that department and know how they do things? Just how much MORE experience would other candidates have to have to justify not even giving me an interview?

    Honestly, I’m kinda devastated. I work any weekend they ask me time, and constantly prioritize them when I’m making plans. I switch shifts/come in at the last minute when they ask, etc. I don’t know if this was 100% an HR decision or if my manager had a say, so I can’t know exactly what all went into the decision….but is this normal? To not give an interview to a fully qualified employee in good standing?

    2. babblemouth*

      Short answer: yes, they can do that. It’s not unreasonable for them to take the candidates they feel best match the requirements on paper.

      Long answer: I get that this sucks massively for you, especially after you were encouraged by coworkers to go for it. However, if better qualified people come along they have a professional obligation to go for it. It might even be a legal obligation if they work in government.
      Talk to your supervisor, and ask them what the information flow is between them and the city HR. It might just be that HR went through CVs for sorting looking at basic qualifications, and if many others met them and you didn’t, it’s natural you didn’t make the cut. I’ve once had to go through 300 CVs for the same position, I had to be pretty heartless about it to avoid spending too much time on it.

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