open thread – January 6-7, 2017

by Alison Green on January 6, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. Jumanji*

    I’ve been at my job for six months. From week one I have had an adverserial relationship with my supervisor. The project I am supposed to implement had problems that required me to fix in terms of inadequate funding and manpower. Discovering and taking steps to fix these things and trying to relate to my difficult boss have caused me a great deal of grief and drove me to seek EAP counseling starting around my fourth week. I currently see a psychologist (out of pocket until the $1000 deductible is met and the insurance kicks in) to help me through these difficulties.

    I can easily make the argument that leaving this job because of bad fit and for the sake of my mental health is a no brainer. In fact, I have an interview for a job that looks like a better fit next week.

    The dilemma I face is I was hired specifically to implement the aspects of the project no one else on the team has the skills or experience. If I leave, this high profile project (where they are accountable to a grant donor) has no plan B. I will leave them hanging and the project Directors (who are nice and decent people whom I like) will have major egg on their faces. Add to that we hired a vendor to do the technical and design aspects of the project and are on the verge of signing a contract.

    My instincts tell me that the best way to leave where I would not leave anyone hanging would be to help them through the implementation and launch of the project and once that is done, to tell them I am leaving because I don’t see a future for me long term with them or in the field. But that would mean staying with them for at least seven to eight more months.

    Do I think I can make it work for a few more months before leaving? Yes. Therapy is helping a lot in giving me coping skills. The project directors have been willing to work with me to fix problems in money and manpower. My boss also, has softened his adverserial stance the past few weeks as I have demonstrated my capabilities in handling the project.

    But that would mean I give up the opportunity I am interviewing for next week, if I got an offer. And also I would postpone job hunting a few more months.

    Any advice?

    1. BRR*

      You shouldn’t stay at a job because “it’s not the right time to leave.” Businesses have to be able to adapt. It’s the same principle if you got hit by a bus, won the lottery, or had to go care for a family member. People leave. It happens.

    2. paul*

      Anytime an agency doesn’t have *some* plan in place to handle a person leaving (or getting incapacitated) they deserve egg on their face. Bluntly, that is incredibly poor planning and management on their part. Keep looking and take the job. Give notice, maybe offer to show your boss or your grandboss the ropes of whatever iti s you’re working on.

      1. bopper*

        I agree…there are options between “put up with it” and “quit”. Talk to the Project Directors about what would make you want to stay.

      2. Alice*

        I agree, as well. Would it be possible that you could stay on as a contract worker to help finish the project if you also got the new job? Not ideal, obviously, since you might end up working two jobs at once for a while, but at least you could offer that up as an option in case (like others have said) leaving would give you a bad reputation in your industry.

      3. Jumanji*

        It is hard to talk to them about it because the problems I encountered stem from the way the project is structured and who is in charge of it. Basically, it is a major web/IT project that is charged to be implemented by a department who are nontechnical and have never implemented a web/IT project before. And my boss is a nontechnical person who has never implemented or managed a web/IT project before, has no background in it, and has never managed staff who come from web/IT.

        1. IowaGirl*

          Well, Jeez. Their Plan A should have been “Be nice to the IT guy” then. Leave when you are ready – it’s their problem.

        2. ali*

          This was the same as the big-grant funded project I left. I was the only IT person in the department. With the month’s notice I gave them, they were able to “borrow” someone from another department until they could get a replacement for me hired. I spent that time documenting what I had done and what still was left to get done.

        3. Marcela*

          I have been in similar shoes all my career, being the only IT person in academic groups. I do what I can, and make my greatest effort to do my job. But after all my bosses have refused to accept that I can’t do miracles, days do not have 100 hours and specially, I can’t replace or provide the scientific knowledge, as soon as I need to go I stop caring about what happens to them. I told them we needed help, hours, information. If they didn’t give me that, surely the project is not as important as they say, and they will manage without me. Leave as soon as you can, don’t look back.

    4. Sadsack*

      You have an interview scheduled. An offer may not come for weeks or even months. Why not go to the interview and then see where you are at with the project if/when you receive an offer? Maybe by the time an offer is made, your project will have reached a point where you could walk away from it.

    5. ali*

      Don’t give up the interview. You’re only going to regret the “not knowing” if you would get an offer or not.

      If you do get an offer, and it sounds like a good fit and what you want to do, then you worry about how to quit. I quit a big-grant funded job when I was the only one who had any idea how to make the executable happen, because my dream job (which I am still in 4 years later) came open. If your current organization is in a situation where you are the only person who can possibly complete the work, then really that’s their problem and their own fault. No one should ever be indispensable. If you really like them and really feel bad about leaving, then see if the new company will let you delay your start date, so you can give them a month’s notice. Then spend that month getting someone else up to speed. You can’t live your life and be miserable just because you feel like you can’t leave.

      1. rawr*

        This is great advice. I was in a similar situation earlier this year. While I did not end up getting my dream job ( runner up, unfortunately), I had shifted to this way of thinking by the time the interview came around. It is not your problem that your workplace doesn’t have a Plan B. Really, and truly. If your job is causing you this much grief, I think you can, and should, walk away guilt-free if you get an offer.

      3. Confused Teapot Maker*

        +1 to this. I wouldn’t worry about quitting until there’s actually a firm offer from elsewhere on the table. And even then you still have the opportunity to ask the new company to be flexible on your start date to limit how much old company is being left in the lurch.

        But, ultimately and apologies for the bleakness, if you went under a bus tomorrow, I can almost promise your company would find a way to cope so I wouldn’t feel bad about leaving them if that’s what’s best for you.

      4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Yes! It’s part of your employer’s job to come up with a Plan B, and the fact that they’ve poorly designed their project shouldn’t mean that you sacrifice your own well-being to save them from themselves, Jumanji. It’s honestly ok to job seek, to interview, and to leave before the project is implemented.

    6. Beancounter in Texas*

      If you do decide to accept a job offer from the interview next week, I’d offer a leave notice long enough to help them train your replacement.

      IMO, you should go. If your job stress level is enough to seek therapy after four weeks, then it’s not likely going to be a good fit in the long term. But I’m speaking from personal experience of having a supervisor that drove me to tears routinely from the start and I didn’t realize how much stress the ups & downs of our working relationship gave me until she was terminated 14 months later. I wish I had walked out after two weeks.

    7. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Have you talked to the Project Directors and given them a chance to fix the issues with your supervisor? We can assume you’ve done your best to work with this supervisor, they sound bad enough that there’s no fixing it anyway. But intervention from higher up might help, they might even cut out your supervisor altogether if they need you that badly. And then the question is, would you want to stay if it wasn’t for this supervisor?

      If it doesn’t work out, you’re not obligated to stay and finish it for them. What would they do if you got hit by a bus? They would probably (eventually) find someone with the needed skills/experience. And what if they suddenly didn’t need you, do you think they’d let you stick around for months just because it was better for you? If not, then you don’t owe them that. (Some employers will do that, usually for senior employees.)

    8. SCAnonabrarian*

      Oh that’s an unfortunate situation.

      A couple of thoughts;
      Is there any way you can leave documentation or create processes or lists or be available after-hours as a contract or temp worker or become a paid adviser to provide your specific expertise to the current job if you DID find a new position? If that’s the case at all, then I would say it’s better for you to go ahead and start looking and applying – you don’t KNOW that you’ll get this job you want to apply for (or any other that you apply for), and you really do eventually need a job that doesn’t make you sick.

      Would make you look bad to prospective employers to have left the current folks hanging? Is your field really small (ie can current employers complain about you and have an impact on potential employers)? Are there not a lot of openings (if not, that can be in your favor as it’s more understandable to move to advance)? Is the atmosphere sufficiently awful that you can explain that you HAD to leave and not just jumped ship and left them in the lurch (can you do that and still be professional and not trash the company or talk to personally about your mental health issues which they don’t need to know about)?

      Finally, is there any evidence that as the initial bumps get smoothed out on this project (which it sounds like they maybe are?) that the adversarial relationship will continue to thaw or at least become more of a “chilly formal” sort of thing, which isn’t ideal but at least you don’t need to flee immediately? If that seems at all likely (maybe something you can discuss with your therapist and see how your supervisor relates to other workers?) then that may tilt you towards being willing to stick it out – then you’ve got a longer job on record, AND you’ve got a finished complex grant project to add to your cv.

    9. spocklady*

      It sounds like this organization has comprehensive staffing issues; partially because they have a grant for a high-profile project with no backup plan for what happens if you leave or get sick or something, and partially because once you got there you discovered additional manpower and funding issues. Yikes.

      This is not your mess. This is their mess. The project directors might be nice people, but their failure to plan is not your problem. If you get an offer for another position, you should take it with a clear conscience. Put another way, you can’t make the directors in your current position fix their bigger structural issues, all by yourself, and you certainly shouldn’t have to at the expense of your own health and sanity. Good luck!

      1. Jumanji*

        Yup! The problems I encountered stem from the way the project is structured and who is in charge of it. Basically, it is a major web/IT project that is charged to be implemented by a department who are nontechnical and have never implemented a web/IT project before. And my boss is a nontechnical person who has never implemented or managed a web/IT project before, has no background in it, and has never managed staff who come from web/IT.

        1. Nico m*

          Fuck ’em.

          Go to the interview. If you dont get that job, keep looking.

          I think that if you had the power to play a “change or i quit” move, things would not have got this bad.

        2. HoVertical*

          Been there, and done that. I took the second job offer, and never looked back – I wound up all the strings of the project that I could, and hoofed merrily away from that toxic environment. As others have stated, it was their responsibility to have a Plan B, and possibly even Plans C, D, and E.

      2. paul*

        Yeah, the people and agencies that fund some of our grants would raise hell if there were no contingency plans in place to handle something like this. I’m kind of amazed they’ve gotten away with it TBH

    10. Barney Barnaby*

      Generally, employers won’t delay lay-offs for more than a week, at most, to accommodate their employees’ needs. I find it rather one-sided to expect workers to delay departures for months for the sake of a company that wouldn’t do the same for them.

      That snark aside, take the interview, take the job if it’s a better fit, and just give a bit longer than normal notice period.

    11. Natalie*

      You’ve gotten lots of good advice, so I just want to share a phrase I keep in mind for situation like this:

      Not your circus, not your monkeys. (It also renders well in emoji.)

    12. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Former IT guy here. Go to the interview. I made the mistake of staying far too long in a toxic situation. It never got better, only worse. If you leave it’s their problem to fix, not yours. Part of any serious plan should be having backups for key people just in case of situations like this. Not your problem. Keep repeating that to yourself.

      When your job situation has degraded to the point you need medical attention it’s time to run like a jackrabbit.

      Good luck on the upcoming interview.

    13. Girasol*

      I was remotely involved in a project where senior leaders established a hand-wavy plan and an extremely wishful timeline. When it was clear the project was in trouble they hired a very talented project manager. They didn’t give her much latitude, though, maintained the same unreasonable expectations, and undermined her with surprise direction changes. In the end somebody’s head had to roll and it couldn’t be the leaders’ so she was fired. Is there a chance that’s you, and you’re there not to fix things as much as to be the sacrificial lamb? If you’ve any doubt, get out! Staying wouldn’t help them or you.

    14. Chaordic One*

      In your situation, I would definitely go on the interview. There’s no certainly that you would get a job offer, but if you do, I would be inclined to take it. I don’t know what’s up with your difficult boss, but if you are seeing a psychologist to cope with the stress, that’s not reasonable. You really do need to look out for your own best interests and your own mental health.

      If you go on the interview and don’t get an offer, then please keep looking for your own good.

    15. Artemesia*

      The only way the difficult bosses of the world get any discipline is by not holding good people. EVen then they still are usually not curbed. But you need not sacrifice your well being for the good organization. Always put your own interests first — That is what the business does when they decide to fire loyal competent employees when it is in their interest to do so.

  2. Emac*

    No question, but I applied for the job I asked for advice on writing a cover letter for a couple of weeks ago! I’ve been thinking it’s time to move on from my current place for awhile, but reading this blog has finally gotten me to get my ass in gear. Planning to do at least 3 more applications this weekend.

    1. ali*

      good for you! I need to write a killer cover letter this weekend myself. I’ll go back and look at your post!

  3. Future Analyst*

    Happy Friday! WFH folks: any advice on how to handle the solitude? I work on proprietary, internal projects, and often need to be able to take calls at any point of the day, so sitting at a coffee shop is out, unfortunately. But it’s SO quiet! And it’s literally only been a day, but I miss being able to walk around the office and say hi to people. Also, I’m still hourly, so when the day is over, I need to stop checking email, but man, it’s hard when there are a bunch of escalations going on. Shy of locking my computer in a safe at 5 pm, any suggestions for how to cut the cord at the end of the day?

    1. Lindsey*

      Do you have your email on your phone? That’s what killed me. I took it off my phone and it’s so much easier to shut a laptop when I do that!

      Also, as a fellow WFH person, have you tried virtual “coffee” dates? I have them with a few of my co-workers every couple of weeks, and it seriously helps with the loneliness.

      1. Becca*

        When I’m doing work at home, I’ll sometimes just Facetime or Skype a friend who’s also working from home. It’s quite nice! No talking necessary, although there’s someone there in case you do need to talk.

        If you know people who also work from home near you, you could see if they’d be interested in a work-from-home-together sort of arrangement? I have some friends who do this, where a few people will congregate at one place/house to work. Good luck!

    2. IT_Guy*

      I did a 2 year gig WFH, and since I live in a rural area I was facing the same things you did. I survived by keeping to a strict almost OCD schedule. I also would do specific tasks, such as dropping my daughter at school and picking her up. I also had a home office set up in a spare bedroom and would walk out the door at the end of the day and not go back in until the next day.

      If you need to make a break from work complete, I would suggest putting the computer down and backing slowly away….

      1. The IT Manager*

        That’s my suggestion for the after hours temptations. Designated office/desk that you leave at the end of the day. If it’s an office, you can even close the door.

        I also have my personal laptop (rarely used any more) in my home office but it’s on a different desk and everything. Work desk is for work only.

      2. Ann Cognito*

        I sit at the same spot at the dining room table (my husband has been WFH longer than me, so he uses the office) every single time, and I’ve been surprised at how well it works in terms of I sit down at that particular spot and I’m immediately “at work”. Then when I stand up and shut my laptop down, I’m “off work”.

        I meet friends/former colleagues for coffee or lunch quite frequently, so that helps with the solitude.

    3. Claire (Scotland)*

      For the quiet, can you try having music/radio/TV on low, so it doesn’t intrude on concentration but fills some of the space instead of silence? Or try a white noise generator? Can you use some sort of chat program to communicate with colleagues or friends at points through the day, to get some of that social interaction you are missing?

      As for cutting the cord, what works for me is having a little ‘ritual’ to transition from work day to downtime. Mine is changing my clothes, but it could be going for a walk/run/to the gym, or taking a shower, or cooking dinner, or whatever will enable you to change focus. I find that this lets me switch off the work brain and make the most of my time.

      1. Midge*

        A friend of a friend takes a half an hour walk around the neighborhood at the beginning and end of each WFH day as her “commute”. Depending on your climate, that could be a nice transition ritual.

    4. Onnellinen*

      I work from home on occasion, and find a short walk around the block helps me “cut the cord” at the end of the day – I treat it like a mini commute, and it’s a little mental break with change of scenery. I also felt weird just closing my laptop and suddenly “being home” before I implemented the walk.

    5. Liz in a Library*

      When I was working from home and feeling a little too disconnected from other people, I’d try to break up any of my personal errands for the week into short enough trips that I could run out every other day or so on my lunch break and do something outside the house. It sounds silly, but it really helped me!

      1. EddieSherbert*

        Same! It really helps if you are at least leaving the house once a day or whatever works for you. I go to the grocery store at least 2x a week. And I actually just returned from going to the post office to mail a letter! (it’s only 2 blocks away for me, haha).

    6. Anon13*

      It may not be possible, depending on your organization’s budget and where you live, but have you thought about working out of a co-working space? Though a lot of them probably don’t offer the privacy you need, there are some in my city that offer actual offices for some people, so there may be something like that near you!

      I only work from home occasionally, so I doubt I have the same issues as you with loneliness, but taking an actual break for lunch, and leaving the house during that break helps me when I’m working from home and feeling kind of blah.

    7. Emmie*

      I am still working on this, and admittedly failing at unplugging. Coffetivity, an Apple ap that I’m probably misspelling, gives great coffee house background noise.

      3. another IT manager*

        +1 on Coffeetivity; they have a web version (and Android, I think) if you’re not an IOS person.

    8. BRR*

      The quiet gets to me too (despite being so annoyed at the noise when I work in the office). I’ve used everything from lower quality tv shows or movies to just be there to having NPR on. The talking on NPR is nice.

      For stoping at the end of the day. Can you set up a work area away from the space you usually are in? Shut down your computer.

      1. Tomato Frog*

        NPR saved my sanity during the phases of my life when, for one reason or another, I had minimal human interaction. Call-in shows were especially helpful, even though in general they’re not my favorite type of audio programming.

    9. Evie*

      I’m in year 7 of working from home on data that I can’t allow anyone else to see. I also have my office set up in a separate room that I only enter during office hours. I removed email from my phone & that’s not been a problem for work. If there’s a data emergency significant enough for me to work overtime, they call me.
      I love the work day solitude but I also now get my socialization fix from friends & meetup groups. When I worked in an office, I’d go home & curl up with the silence.

    10. SophieChotek*

      I WFH too.

      I have to admit I actually don’t mind the solitude; sure there are times when I wish I had a co-worker to bounce ideas off of in person or to go grab a cup of coffee, but honestly, when I trained at the company’s HQ everyone there was so micro-managing (literally down to the shoes I wore), that it was a relief once my training was over and I was released to WFH. (I did have virtual coffee dates with one co-worker, like Lindsey suggest, but that person got laid off, and I don’t know the others as well to do that.)

      I am not hourly, but I my boss knows I really won’t check my email after 5 or 6pm or on weekends, or if I do, I likely won’t respond unless it really is an emergency. (And the business and part I am in the likelihood of a “true” emergency is really really low.)

      I would agree with others — just sign off email at 5pm and don’t let yourself sign back on. make it a habit; and don’t feel bad about it.

      To break up the day, I will just run out for 20 minutes and get a cup of coffee or run the Target to just walk around and give my mind a mental break. (Both are literally with 10 mins walking distance, so during the nice weather I walk…not now when it is below zero, without the windchill.)

    11. AMT*

      Can we, uh, trade jobs? I work in an open office and everyone but me thinks it’s a good idea to play pop music on the radio and have loud, shrill personal conversations eight hours a day.

      On a more serious note, there are sites like Coffitivity that play background noises to help you feel more productive. I like to use the sound of a busy coffee shop at home for writing projects. It might help your workplace feel more “alive.”

    12. Red Reader*

      I’ve been WFH for almost three years. When it gets quiet, I kick on Netflix on something I’ve seen a thousand times, or old episodes of House Hunters or something that requires no brain power or focus. Does your office have some sort of chat program? I have several work buds that we just chat sporadically over the course of the day via Jabber, the same kind of non-work-related chatting that we’d be doing if we were all in a cube farm, only we multitask better since it’s typing rather than an in person conversation so we’re all at our desks working as well. I wish I had more suggestions; I love the solitude, but I’m pretty heavily introverted :)

      Cutting the cord: you don’t necessarily have to lock the computer in a safe, but definitely close it and put it away. I have an at-home office, but it has both my work and personal computers in there, and I can reach both of them from the same chair, because I’ve never had any problem putting my work down at the end of my work day. I love my job, but when they stop paying me, I stop working. :) If that’s harder for you, then yeah, setting up a “this is my work space” area that you only go into when you’re working — even if it’s just a small desk in the corner of the guest room or whatever — can help distinguish that break. Like someone else said, a walk around the block for a “commute” might help too — I don’t necessarily leave the house when my workday is done, but I do definitely get up and do something very specifically non-work-y, put in the laundry or spend a couple minutes playing with my dogs. And definitely don’t have your work email going to a non-work device unless you absolutely have to.

      Some people get dressed for work even if they WFH — I don’t exactly, I sleep sky clad so when I get up I put on jammies or sweats, so if I’m going out after work, then putting on “real clothes” helps make that cutover too. If you are the “dressing for work” type, changing — even from one t-shirt into another — might help.

      1. Red Reader*

        Could you maybe set up an hour or two a couple of days a week of “head down hard working time” where phone calls are only an option in emergencies, and then spend those working at a coffee shop or library or whatever, if you really need to have an around-people break?

    13. Rex*

      Lunch dates with friends! (Or do something else fun and social for lunch.)

      Go to the gym. Go for a walk. Do you really have to be able to answer the phone all the time or can they leave a message sometimes and you can call back?

      Set some hard limits about working hours. I like the earlier suggestion to take email off your phone if that is an option. If not, make sure it’s not on your home screen.

      Is there a home office you can visit sometimes?

      Give yourself a daily 5 pm appointment to do something. Just so you have a hard break at the end of the day.

    14. Christy*

      I shut my laptop lid and mute my computer. Over the weekend, I will move my computer to a chair (I work from my dining room table) so that I don’t see it at all. It really helps with the unplugging.

      I also regularly take evening exercise classes, and that helps with the firm stop at the end of the day.

      Also, definitely regularly IM people you work with. They probably feel lonely, too. Even a “good morning, I hope you have a good day” helps.

    15. Dislike Names*

      I work from home full time as well, as an hourly contractor. A few things I found useful:

      1 – I am “at work” when I have my shoes on. I never, ever work without shoes. I also have a desk lamp I turn on when I’m working, and off when I’m not. My desk is in my den so this is critical. If you can find something similar, it may work for you.

      2 – I didn’t mind the solitude at first because I hated how loud and annoying my office was. Once that wore off and it was too quiet, I started talking to my dogs. It actually helped. What helps more is I’m connected to a network of peers (who I do not work with directly) through slack, and we chat pretty much throughout the day, as you would with a coworker. Many argue that chat/email is not the same, and it’s not, but it sure is better than nothing.

      3 – Throw yourself into your work. The busier I am, the less I care about what’s going on or not going on around me.

      Good luck!!

    16. Danae*

      I love the solitude and the quiet of working from home! I don’t even play music while I’m working, because it distracts me and I dislike the feeling of my attention being tugged this way and that.

      NPR or other talk radio might work for background noise–the NPR One app is honestly pretty great. Podcasts might also help if you need background noise.

      I keep to a pretty strict schedule, which helps a lot with the walking away at the end of the day thing. (I also track my time very closely–I am paid by the billable hour, so it’s out of necessity. If I end up working late or needing to hop on and fix something in the evening, I just track the time and log it.) My end of work ritual is shutting down my laptop rather than just closing it, turning off my work monitor, and getting up and walking away from my office. And then I either leave the house if I’m going out or go make dinner if I’m staying home.

    17. MegKnits*

      I looooove the fireplace channel for background noise when I am home alone. I don’t have to listen to annoying filler radio conversation or get distracted by the TV. This was particularly helpful when I was on calls as it was enough white noise to drown out neighbour sounds but not be distracting/noisy when I was on a call with a client.

      Good luck with the shutting down/routine part. Maybe allow yourself so many ‘extra’ minutes, and then walk away? Or as another commenter said, create a routine of how/when you switch out of ‘work mode’.

    18. DG*

      Get a dog!

      I love working from home because I get to hang with my dogs all day. I have a home office with a gross old futon in it that’s just for them. I start the day with a cup of coffee and (if the weather is decent) a walk for them. Then they’ll hang out with me until lunch and maybe another walk.

      And there are LOTS of dogs who would love a work from home person because maybe they wouldn’t do so well in a home where they were crated all day. It could be win-win!

      At the end of the day, I’m able to shut the door and not be at work anymore. It’s glorious.

      Sometimes I’ll play music or movies in the background while I’m working, but just having the dogs there feels like “company” to me.

      1. Headachey*

        I do love having my dog for company when I’m working from home – and he loves it when I’m home. What he doesn’t love is when I talk/yell/snark at the computer – he’s very sensitive to tone and will get up and leave the room! I’m trying to retrain myself to sweet-talk the computer but that’s rather weird. Oddly, my dog knows when I’m on the phone and doesn’t get upset by that at all.

    19. Elizabeth West*

      –Quiet: When I work(ed) from home, I had music playing that I couldn’t stream in the office. Sometimes turning on the TV with the volume low helped. I would put it on Kitchen Nightmares when I had cable, because I’ve seen them all and can ignore most of it. Just having the voices helped–I often got sleepy working from home!

      –Cutting the cord: If you work off the clock, even to answer emails, you must be paid for that time. If you aren’t, that is illegal. Think of the end of your shift as being YOUR time now. Once you clock out, that’s it–you own it. It’s yours to do with as you wish, but it does not include work. It helps if all your work stuff–email, IM, etc.–is on the laptop only.

      Also, instead of just closing it, if you’re tempted to keep peeking, turn it off instead.

      Have your laptop in another room where you work, separate from where you lounge or just do home stuff. Again, the more you have to do to check email, i.e. get up and log in, etc., the less likely you’ll do it.

    20. MsCHX*

      +1 for a dedicated “office” at home. Even if you don’t have space for an actual room that you can close the door on and be done; a corner in a living room/dining room/etc where work is done. At 5:00 (or whatever time “quitting time” is), close the laptop and either leave the house to run errands (everyone has to make pharmacy, Target, grocery runs at least a couple times a week, right?!), go for a walk, go to the gym, go to the coffee shop, pick up your hobby etc.

      Good luck!

    21. Tuckerman*

      I work from home one day a week and love it. I don’t think I’d like to do it every day. I have a dog, and he keeps me company and gives me an excuse to go for walks to break up the day. Not to say you should adopt an animal if that’s not up your alley, but it really does a lot to keep me from feeling isolated.

    22. harryv*

      I’ve been full time WFH the past 9 years. I find myself having lunch with friends who also WFH, work in the neighborhood, or others with flexible hours. If it bothers you that much, maybe move to a work location.

      As for pulling the plug after 5pm, don’t unlock your mail app after work. The work will never end. Longevity and productivity is directly associated with how much you unwind. I feel I am more creative with ideas when I am well rested.

  4. WellRed*

    Local story here: A security guard in NH in a 90 day trial period was fired on New Years Day for missing two shifts over the weekend. He missed work because his wife was in labor.

      2. WellRed*

        That’s actually not clear in the article and it’s a good point. If he didn’t, he should have. Also, to add insult to injury, he was supposedly fired by text.

    4. No, please*

      I read that story too. Hasn’t he received an offer for an electrician apprenticeship? I’d love to hear his managers reasoning for that. Seriously.

    6. Gwensoul*

      I think there was a bit more to this. He was in his 90 probationary period and had already called out and missed several days of work. While a birth is a good reason to miss, I bet it is more of the manager being fed up with it.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I don’t like to judge, but I agree. There probably was a process for missing work – calling the boss 30 min ahead of time or finding a replacement. It’s a security job, so it’s very important to show up for work.
        In the end, I think everyone got what they wanted. The company shed an employee they didn’t like, and the employee has a bunch of new opportunities.

        1. Honeybee*

          Sure there’s a procedure, but in emergency situations there have to be exceptions. You don’t necessarily know 30 minutes ahead of time that your wife is going into labor, and you’re going to be at that birth regardless of whether you find a replacement (also, if your wife is in labor, who has time to start calling around to see if you can find a replacement?)

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t think he’s ever going back.
      He has been offered an electrical apprenticeship and had several employers offer him a job. Someone else started a fundraiser for him and his family.

      Apparently he had a job with 24/7 availability and he had signed a contract. When he did not show up for work he breached and they fired.

      Just because it’s legal does not mean it is right. I hope their being “right” was worth the nationwide spot light. The guy is a veteran.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Yeah, that’s insane and unreasonable. You have to be on call 24/7, you don’t get paid for being on call, and you don’t have the ability to decline a shift or limit your availability for major life or medical events? That’s disgusting.

      2. K.*

        I think the GoFundMe has raised half its goal and he’s gotten three job offers. And I’m with you: just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

      3. Zip Silver*

        The guy that shot up FLL was a veteran too. So am I.

        Our veteran status doesn’t mean we’re all saints.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I think that it adds an additional layer of disrespect because the guy served our country. If anything it makes the company look even worse, like they don’t care he put himself out there for our nation.

  5. A New Consultant*

    I have consulted in the past but only for companies where I already had worked, but now I have a couple new clients and am running into some questions about billing. My specific role is somewhere between being a contractor for a specific role (so actually doing the work) and being a consultant/advising on best practices, coaching, giving advice.
    I bill by the hour and am wondering whether or not to bill in these cases:

    *I have to make a phone call for the client and am on hold for an hour with no outcome.

    *The client asks me to do research/work on something, and I spend an hour doing it, but a few hours later, she no longer needs that work. (For example, if someone asked Alison to look for information on specific labor laws or best practices, knowing she didn’t have the information off-hand and would have to look into it, but a couple hours later, the client changed their mind or found what they were looking for elsewhere).

    And in general, do you charge for time spent doing research needed to do the actual work, when research is necessary? I know if I were an actual employee, I’d be paid to be on hold, do work that my boss later changed his mind on, etc…

    1. IT Kat*

      Think of it this way:

      * Would you have been on hold for an hour if they didn’t ask you to look into something?
      * Would you have done that research if they didn’t request it?

      If the answer is no (and I highly suspect it is) then yes, bill for it. If it helps ease your conscience, when they ask you to do these tasks in the future, you can mention that you will be billing for that time, but I would guess unless the client is unreasonable or has never worked with consultants before, they’d know that already.

      1. Pwyll*

        I agree with the above. One thing you can also do comp a few calls and e-mails on the bill in line-item format as a regular course of business. It’s pretty crazy how people will argue with you about your hourly charges when they’re done in bulk format (project A – 7 hours – $xx), but once you start itemizing a ton of “status update call – 5 min – no charge” they shift to thinking you’re giving them such a great deal. You’ll want to have something in your contract that states that they are responsible for paying for the time you spend on the project, and not the specific deliverables alone, and that a waiver of a specific charge isn’t a promise to waive others. But it’s a little psychological trick I picked up from an old boss and it really tends to work (with reasonable clients).

        2. A New Consultant*

          Thanks, this is what I went with for this invoice. There’s so much to navigate when not working as an employee for the first time!

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      IT Kat is right. If you did an hour-long presentation for your board of directors, and it took about 40 hours to prepare for it, do you think it would be fair for your boss to ask you to write/research/rehearse the presentation on your own time? No, you do that during work hours! (Unless you have a toxic corporate culture that pushes exempt employees to work 80 hours a week.)

      Anything required for that specific job is billable. Especially work they specifically ask you to do, whether they use it or not!

      And I hope you have a reasonable client, but if not, I hope you are diversified or can diversify your client base quickly!

    3. hbc*

      Research that was requested but then not needed is a clear charge. If it comes up often or they get ticked about it, you might have to get clearer. “Okay, so I’m starting my research now, unless you want me to hold off.”

      Being on hold–that seems more tricky to me. I’d be ticked off at an employee if they sat on hold for an hour and didn’t do anything else with their time, and same if I got a bill for it. You’re probably not staring ahead listening to hold music for 60 minutes, so I’d either round that down or make sure I did work for that client while on hold. You might even play it by ear depending on how urgent the call was, whether the company has been rigid or flexible about paying you, etc..

      1. Anna*

        If you spent an hour on hold for you employer, you were still working for you employer, whether you were able to type an email or three or not. IT Kat explains it very well.

    4. Jane*

      Yes to both (unless, for the first one it was somehow avoidable to spend that much time on hold, such as by calling back later after it went on for more than few minutes – the client might question that part of the bill but they can’t reasonably refuse to pay for the time spent on work they no longer needed so long as you immediately stoppped doing that work once informed).

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Take a look at what lawyers are doing. The last bill I got from an attorney showed every phone call and every copy of anything they made. I believe time was billed in five minute increments?

      That phone call gets billed. It’s irrelevant that nothing happened. You could have been doing something else and getting paid for it.
      The unneeded research gets billed for a similar reason.

      Since your clients might be surprised if you suddenly do this, then work up a price list for them and include scenarios that you “have” to bill for. Tell them going forward this is how your billing process works.
      As an aside, there maybe times when you chose to wave the fee for the work. That should be your choice and on a case by case basis.

      1. Anon13*

        Seconding this. Law firms bill in different increments, with 6 minutes actually being the most common I’ve seen (so it’s an easy percentage of a hour), but, while the exact increments aren’t important, I’d bill in increments of 15 minutes, at a minimum, instead of billing hourly.

        You might also consider billing a lower rate for things like time spent on hold, which is also something I’ve seen law firms do – for example, if an attorney drives to a courthouse to file something in person, they may bill those specific hours at a paralegal rate instead, since a paralegal could have easily done the same task. This may not work for your type of work, though, and may get way too complicated, so it’s probably not worth it for you.

        Once you’ve been doing this for a while and you have a good idea of what the time commitment for each project will be, you could also consider billing on a fixed fee, rather than hourly, basis. This can get dicey, but I’ve seen it work really well, too – most people I know who bill this way end up about even in the end by coming out a little ahead on a some projects and a little behind on others, and clients tend to really like it because they know the costs upfront and can better budget for them.

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        We normally bill in 6-minute increments. :) And yes, we bill for everything (we’re required to provide a breakdown at the client’s request, which is why we’re super ticky tacky about capturing every. little. thing. we do for a case/client).

        It’s up to you how you want to proceed as a consultant, but I would encourage you to bill for everything for the reasons IT Kat provided. And as Pwyll noted, you can later choose to comp certain line items if you want, but note that you’re not required to comp anything. If you do choose to do it, it’s a goodwill gesture—don’t do it because you feel guilty. You did work for your client and could not otherwise spend that time on other work activity; you have to be compensated for that time.

        If billing for “non-useful” work feels stressful to you, you could also explore alternate billing systems. For example, sometimes folks will bill by deliverable instead of billing by hour.

    6. NJ Anon*

      Yes, you could have been doing other paid work. So they need to pay you. I used to work for a lawyer and some of his clients would get annoyed that he would bill them for a 1/2 hour phone call. His logic was that his time was money and if he did free phone calls all day, he wouldn’t make any. And like I said, that is time he could have made money working on something else.

    7. Anon 12*

      I consult. One client is quite regular with a lot of hours and others are one off answer the question/do the project kind of thing. I bill for anything that’s an hour or more, blow off the smaller stuff for my large regular client, but aggregate the smaller stuff into one hour increments for the small clients.

    8. Username has gone missing*

      Re the work that isn’t needed: yes!

      You don’t get a refund on bread you bought because you decided not to eat it.

    9. Artemesia*

      I think it depends. If for example you signed on to work with spread sheets and you have to spend time on tutorials on how to use spread sheets, the ‘research’ would be on you. They shouldn’t have to pay you to learn what they hired you to do. On the other hand if anyone doing whatever it is you were hired to do would have to do some research as part of the project, then that is on the clock. So is the ‘research’ actually acquiring the skill you already sold them you had, or is it project specific information you had to acquire to this particular project.

    10. Aglaia761*

      If you are spending the time working for your client, you bill it. Even if they set your work on fire, you still did it for them and it was time you couldn’t spend on your other clients.

  6. Audiophile*

    I got a 3% raise, which at my salary will be negligible. It’s still a little exciting.

    I was hoping for a “snow day” today but the hype turned out to be for nothing. It was a basically a dusting of snow.

    I’ve started using the bullet journal method, I have two of the limited edition Kickstarter journals. I kicked in money and got the books a long time ago, but found it pretty overwhelming and wasn’t sure how to begin to get started. I found these really cool etsy calendar rubber stamps for the entire year. Part of me really wants them, but I could essentially do the same thing with a ruler.

    1. Morning Glory*

      Ha same. Woke up with no snow, still checked my email because “maybe it’s a snow day anyway”

      Congrats on the raise!

    2. Gandalf the Nude*

      We’re getting our snow tonight, and I’m kind of relieved. I’ve got too much going on for another day off!

      All my teacher friends were annoyed by CMS’ completely unnecessary robo-call last night simply declaring that all activities would continue as scheduled.

    3. Kristinemc*

      I’ve started doing this a little for my work list, and just started a full journal for personal use as well. Do you have any favorite tools/sites yet?

      I am thinking of getting a small ruler to keep in my journal – I have the Leuchtturm 1917. I also got some of the pilot disposable fountain pens in different colors to us.

      1. Audiophile*

        I had been trying to force myself to use a digital list – Todoist and Wunderlist, being the most recent two. But that just didn’t work, I’d accidentally swipe the reminders off my notification screen on my cell. Or forget to put them in the app in the first. Boss and I had a hard time sharing lists.

        I remembered I had received those Kickstarter Bullet Journals, they’re Leuchtturm1917 notebooks, with a few custom features setup by the guy who created the Bullet Journal. I will say I don’t love the dotted format and kind of want to pick up a regular squared 1917 notebook.

        I’ve also been on the hunt for better pens. I’m a lefty and almost every thing I write smudges. It’s driving me crazy.

          2. Is Genevieve pronounced Jen A Veev or Zsahn Vee Ayve*

            These are the only pens I’ll use in my journals and planners. I love the way they write (I think I prefer the .5, but I have .38 and .7 as well) I am not a lefty, but these are great pens and dont smudge and they write so smooth.

            1. Pseudo-Fed*

              For a second I thought you were talking about technical pens – Rapidograph, Staedtler-Mars, Koh-I-Noor et al. They are wonderful to use, but such high maintenance. Expensive, too. I use a .35 (formerly known as 00) these days, but it’s usually clogged.

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        If you’re looking for a planner, then I *love* the Passion Planner.

        For my journal, I keep a bunch of different colored pens and highlighters. My favorite journaling pens include the uniball 207 retractable gel pen and Muji’s gel pen pack. The latter is really helpful for bullet journaling because they come in multiple colors, and they’re also sold in an assorted color 9-pen pack. I also create a “pocket” to store related items, similar to the built in pocket that Moleskine uses in its journals.

        1. Audiophile*

          I’ve tried tons of pens. I used the Uniball 207s for a while, then I got into the Papermate Ink ones. I also tried Poppin’s line of pens. Almost everything smudges, likely because of the way I hold my hand and write, rather than the pens themselves. I’ll try the G2 pens a try. The EA order some Uniball pens, but they’re not the good ones, the stop writing midway through.

          1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Oh, that’s so frustrating—I’m sorry! I hate when my ink smudges. The Muji pens are slightly better than my uniball 207s in terms of lack of smudging (the 207 doesn’t dry quickly enough, especially if you’re left-handed), but I don’t love the grip/hold on the Mujis as much as the uniballs :(

            I used to have retractable ballpoint pens that I liked, but I always end up pressing down really hard when I have a ballpoint instead of a marker/gel pen. But then I always smudge my marker pens. I know one’s pen choices should not occupy so much brain space, but alas, they do for me :(

    4. Elizabeth West*

      It snowed about an inch on Thursday, but there is ice under it and it’s like 12 degrees F. I’m not going out, thank goodness–probably won’t walk today either, since I don’t have any of those ice grip things for my shoes yet.

      If I were still at Exjob, I probably would be working from home these last two days. Usually the snow is pretty well forecast around here. It’s thunderstorms that are really unpredictable.

    5. RKB*

      I just started my second bullet journal. (I filled a whole one from September 2015-December 2016!) As someone who hates digital organization, it ha been a godsend. I finally got the Leuchtterm notebook (they’re now in Canada!) and every log I jot in makes me so happy. If you stick with it and find what works for you, bullet journaling is fantastic.

      1. Audiophile*

        I don’t hate digital organizers, but they just weren’t working for me. I tried Trello, Google Calendar – which I still use for most things like bills and interviews, Wunderlist, Todoist, Google Keep – which worked for a bit at old job, but definitely wouldn’t work with current job, even recently tried Workflowy.

        I may go back to a digital list, as a backup, but right now almost everything is going into the bullet journal.

    6. Crafty Girl*

      About the stamps…I am pretty crafty and can make a lot of things, but the question becomes is it worth it?

      For instance, at Target I saw a banner for $3 that was perfect for a party we were having. I could have easily made it, but for the supplies, amount of time and added stress to the party prep process, it was definitely worth it to me to buy it!

      So for your stamps, would you spend time to do the same with your ruler? And enjoy it? Or would it be a better use of your time and more enjoyable to get the stamps? If the answers to either of the first two questions is no, or its yes to the latter, buy them!

      1. Audiophile*

        Oh trust me, I’ve had the “is it worth it?” thoughts. I tried with a ruler and wasn’t thrilled with the result.
        The entire set of stamps aren’t cheap, probably $95-$100 with shipping. (It’s all 12 months in mini calendar format.) I’m going to think about it a little more, and experiment over the weekend.

        1. Is Genevieve pronounced Jen A Veev or Zsahn Vee Ayve*

          Keep searching for alternative options. The planner community online is HUGE and you will find more cost effective options. Look at Michaels or JoAnns if you have them in your area, or Hobby Lobby. There are a lot of planner supplies and stamp kits now and you can usually use the 50% coupons! Michaels as really upped their planner supplies in a huge way this year (like an entire aisle now) so look around. More cost effective options exist!!

  7. Anon for this*

    My department has three digital thermometers, and once per week, we have to test the thermometers by sticking them in ice water and checking to see if they read ~32 degrees. Two of the thermometers are model 200 and read to the nearest tenth of a degree, and the third is a model 100 that reads to the nearest whole degree.

    When we do these checks, we have to record the ice water thermometer reading, and every single week, if someone other than me does the thermometer checks, they record a number for the model 100 thermometer that is impossible, like 31.7 degrees or 32.4 degrees. This thermometer only reads in whole numbers, so it can be 31, 32, 33, etc., but not anything between! The fact that everyone else enters readings to a tenth of a degree made me wonder if I was just imagining that the model 100 could only read in whole degrees, but both the thermometer manual and our testing instructions explicitly say that it only reads whole degrees.

    Clearly, then, everyone else who does the thermometer checks is not actually doing them, but just making up numbers and writing them down. In the great scheme of things, checking the thermometers is not all that important (I have never seen one fail), but recording a made-up number on an official record is a pretty big deal. People could definitely be fired for this, and I’m pretty sure they could even be criminally prosecuted for falsifying records. I’m a bit shocked that nobody has caught this yet, not even QA.

    I’m wondering what, if anything, I should do. I don’t want to get anyone in trouble, but this is undeniable proof of blatant falsification of records, and I have a feeling it’s only a matter of time before someone realizes this. But they couldn’t fire the whole department, right? Should I say, “Hey, guys, if you’re going to make up numbers, at least make up numbers that are actually possible.”? Then again, if everyone suddenly starts logging only whole numbers, that would look even more suspicious. This also makes me wonder what else people are falsifying. I’ve caught other instances where I could tell people were falsifying records, but not usually anything that someone could prove, say, a month later, or that couldn’t be excused as an honest mistake. I guess I should probably just leave it alone, but it really bugs me!

    1. bopper*

      Can you ask someone who does it:”Hey,when you test the thermometers next week can you let me know so I can observe? I am finding a discrepency between the documentation and our results and just want to see what is going on so I can give feedback to the manufacturer if necessary.”

    2. Sadsack*

      Why not mention it to your boss that it is strange that others are recording decimals on a thermometer that reads in whole numbers? Let him take it from there.

      1. bopper*

        I would just check first hand that in fact the thermometer only reads in whole numbers? Documentation based on other documentation could be wrong.

        1. Anon for this*

          Oh, I know first hand that the thermometer only reads in whole numbers. I personally do the checks sometimes, and I have never seen that thermometer read anything other than a whole number. I only checked the documentation to verify that there wasn’t some secret decimal mode or something, and there definitely isn’t.

          1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Is it possible your coworkers aren’t using the same thermometer(s)?

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I’d research whether there are any even remotely possible penalties, then mention to the coworkers doing this something like hey, I think you’re getting the 200 and the 100 mixed up because you put 31.7 for the 100, and obviously that’s impossible, and I just read yesterday that you can [lose your license, or whatever] if we get audited, so I wanted to warn you about that before someone else sees it!

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        The issue isn’t that the thermometers aren’t being properly calibrated. The issue is that Anon for this’s coworkers are falsifying data. This is a very serious issue. Tipping them off on how not to get caught isn’t going to improve the situation.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Oh, I got that. Mine was a version of the “It looks like you made a mistake here” when someone does something sketchy, giving them a chance to backpedal. And I think if the OP wanted to bust them for it, they would know better than we would what regulatory agency to go to. I think they just don’t want their office to get caught up in an audit/sanction, and I was suggesting a polite way of calling the coworker(s) out on it.

          1. Anon for this*

            I get what you’re saying, but the problem is that the damage is kind of already done. At this point, there are archived records with falsified data, so there’s no way for people to go back and enter a plausible number. I’m not sure if there would be any benefit to anyone of me calling out my coworkers.

              1. Kimberlee, Esq*

                Yeah, and I’m guessing when QA or outside auditors do their audits, they only go back x months, so eventually you will get back into a place of compliance and the old calibration records won’t matter.

            2. JennyFair*

              Depending on the program you’re working under, you’ll need documentation of fixing the issue, retraining or disciplining employees, etc. Around here it would be NCR and CAR reports. If an auditor uncovers the issue and it wasn’t already fixed, it’s a much bigger deal than if you uncover it and fix it before an auditor has a chance.

    4. PoopEmoji*

      Can you suggest an in-service training on thermometer readings? This could help sort out the fact that one of the thermometers only reads in whole degrees. Alternatively… break the model 100 and request a replacement in the form of model 200?

      1. Edith*

        But if people are falsifying the records, what does getting a thermometer with a tenths digit solve? They’re not going to start recording the temp for real. It’ll just make it easier to hide.

    5. Trout 'Waver*

      Falsifying data is insta-fire territory. You have to be able to trust the people entering the data that they’re doing it correctly. When it comes out, and it will eventually, your job will be on the line as well. Tell a manager. If there’s a benign reason for this, your manager can figure it out.

      1. Anon for this*

        Well, that’s kind of what I’m trying to avoid… If I take this to a manager, either (a) everyone who has logged fake numbers will get in trouble and hate me, or (b) the manager will brush it under the rug because she doesn’t want to have to fire everyone, and she will hate me for putting her in that position.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          If your manager is at all competent, they won’t hate you for bringing it up. And if they’re competent, they’ll be discreet. If your manager is incompetent and your coworkers are falsifying data, you need to update your resume and get out of there. But, you don’t have to accuse your coworkers of falsifying data. Tell your manager that you’ve noticed that logs show the Model-100 thermometer has a decimal mode that you can’t figure out how to activate. Let them take it from there.

          How new are you to that industry? Falsifying data is a huge, huge deal. Your coworkers probably should be fired for it. The fact that you’ve noticed other instances of it as well means its pretty serious. Like other forms of cheating, people rarely get caught. If it comes out that you knew and didn’t alert management, your job could be in jeopardy as well.

          1. Anon for this*

            I’ve been in this business for over a decade. There have been several highly publicized cases of people in our industry getting fired and sometimes prosecuted for signing their names to something they didn’t do. Every employee gets training on the federal laws that cover our record-keeping requirements, so they should be well aware of the potential consequences. I think they view the thermometer checks as pointless and a waste of time (even though they are extremely easy and take just a few minutes) and therefore don’t think it will matter if they skip them.

            I have seen managers here sweep things under the rug because they don’t want to open a can of worms, make the department look bad, make the company look bad, get us in trouble with regulatory agencies, etc. If I wanted to get people in trouble, I would report it to our internal affairs department, but I don’t want that responsibility, either!

            1. Observer*

              It’s either report to internal affairs, or find another job. There is no doubt in the world that if this gets out, you are going to be tainted by it. And, it WILL get out if this keeps up. As well, people who get used to flouting the rules when the rules are “annoying” tend to develop increasingly broad definitions of “annoying and OK to break.” And, if your management has a tendency to brush inconvenient breaches under the rug, it’s a good bet that any auditor who finds this will wind up opening an even bigger can of worms.

              You know what, maybe you should start looking for a new job, regardless. You don’t want to be there when the garbage hits the fan and starts spattering everyone in reach.

            2. Anna*

              Because you’re a federal program, you should have a way to report these sorts of things. It’s something that should go to a manager and if nothing happens, it should go higher.

        2. S-Mart*

          If you have a good manager, neither of those will happen. Yes, coworkers will get in trouble (part of your scenario a), but it won’t inherently lead to them hating you – because the manager won’t tell them that you’re the one who brought it up.

          Really not understanding why you want to protect coworkers who are blatantly falsifying records. Besides, when this eventually comes out anyway, if it’s found out you knew and didn’t do anything, it won’t look good for you either.

          1. Anon for this*

            Part of it is that it’s just the culture here that workers have each other’s backs, and people who are considered snitches are ostracized. But also, I consider some of these people my friends. Some of them trained me. I trained others. While I think what they’re doing is wrong, I don’t want to see them lose their jobs, and I really don’t want the burden of being responsible for them losing their jobs.

            1. Trout 'Waver*

              They are responsible for their own behavior, not you. Their behavior could impact not only your current employment, but your future employability.

            2. No Name Yet*

              Not saying what you should or shouldn’t do, but I will say that if you report this and people are fired, that is because of *their* actions. You aren’t responsible for what they’ve chosen to do.

            3. Kimberlee, Esq*

              I feel you. This is something I would personally find a way to mention to my manager (even in a non-accusatory, “this is weird” kind of way), but when I worked fast food we had to do HACCP checks like 4 times a day, and a LOT of people fudged them at least sometimes, because it takes a bit of time and is a pain or whatever. It’s hard to feel motivated to whistleblow on something that you yourself know is not _really_ a big deal (if everyone were faking all the time, it would be, but since at least you personally do legit checks…) other than the breach of protocol.

            4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              Except they’re creating fraudulent data. I understand that it’s really really difficult to imperil friends, but if their jobs are at risk for this (which I think they should be), then your coworkers did that to themselves by falsifying the information.

              I actually think Wells Fargo might be a good example of an analogous situation (although of course much more complex). The bosses were pressuring staff and not managing anything well, and in turn, staff were opening fraudulent accounts for individuals who had never authorized such a thing. Here, your coworkers are creating fraudulent data for which there is no basis in evidence/fact. In both circumstances, engaging in that kind of dishonest conduct is a serious job issue that justifies insta-firing.

    6. hbc*

      Don’t jump to conclusions, just report what you know. “Our data looks mixed up to me, because the 100 model doesn’t read decimals. This could really be a problem if someone investigates.” Maybe someone isn’t doing the calibration, maybe someone is getting the columns mixed up, maybe someone is doing bad math and adjusting for accuracy or theoretical salt content, maybe someone is calibrating all of the model 100s and averaging their values.

      You are reporting a serious problem, not pointing a finger at anyone.

    7. JennyFair*

      I work under NQA-1 and this kind of behavior can lead to revoked certifications and contracts for the entire company. This situation would require some serious paperwork to correct. I wouldn’t encourage them to lie better, though. Are you in a supervisory role?

    8. CheeryO*

      As someone who works for a regulating agency and deals with similar QA stuff all the time, this is something you absolutely must take to your manager. Falsification of records is a BIG deal, and yes, thermometer calibration is not the most important thing in the world, but it’s still illegal. If it means that people get reprimanded or fired, that’s just what it means. Personally, I feel like you have a duty to report it, but I understand that it’s not easy.

    9. Gene*

      I’m a regulator. If I see something like this on an audit, it’s an instant severe penalty, as in the fine starts at $1000/day and I publish the details in the local newspaper for all to see.

      If the calibration sheet doesn’t show who did the calibration, it needs to so the whole department isn’t responsible. Showing who did the calibration is basic documentation.

      This is something you need to tell the QA person, who may not know this particular thermometer only reads whole numbers and may think you aren’t doing your job if you are only recording whole numbers. It’s the QA person’s job to raise something like this with management.

      1. Anon for this*

        The log sheet does show who did the checks. It’s an electronic record and we have to log in with our name and password to log any numbers. The software shows which user entered every number, so it’s very easy to see who is entering the fake numbers.

      2. rubyrose*

        Yes to this! I’ve been reading all the comments and was wondering when the topic of recording who was doing the check would be mentioned.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Know your work environment.

      I worked retail for a while and no one ever checked the temp sheets. They’d look at it long enough to figure out if there were any blank spaces. There was so much we had to record/do that there was not enough higher ups to see if it all had been done. Even if someone checked it, the check was superficial at best.

      In my example here, I would make sure my own work was accurate and let the rest go. Not your hill to die on.
      However, if it eats at you that bad, you could mention it to your boss. Start by saying, “How concerned are we that X is happening?”

      In answer to your question, yes, they are probably fudging other things also. It happens in work environments where more and more tasks get dumped on people and there is not enough people to do all the work. Not saying this is right, I am just pointing out that this happens and often.

    11. Triceratops*

      Could it be that they’re seeing the mercury end up between 31 and 32 and saying “hey, that looks like 31.4 to me.” Still not an okay way to read that kind of thermometer, but possible that they are doing the check and just reporting sloppily!

    12. AndersonDarling*

      You can talk to your Quality Department. There have been cases where I have just walked by mentioned something that I thought was fishy but I didn’t want to start any trouble. Then the Quality Team can decide if it is important…and my name can be kept out of it. They will probably so some supervised audits of each tech. If you work where I think you could, then they probably will do an audit within a year or two.
      But yeah, faking validations is a huge deal.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I didn’t mean that to sound creepy…I just had a conversation with a group that works at a major US organization that has to do a lot of thermometer validations.

    13. JennyFair*

      On a related note, a single-point temperature check is not generally valid for thermometer calibration. They ought to be calibrated at multiple points within the stated range of the thermometer, and they should be verified against a lab-calibrated thermometer (we use a Fluke). If things are as lax as they seem, it might be worthwhile checking into whatever standard you’re meant to be using, to see if your procedure is even sufficient.

      1. Kimberlee, Esq*

        Is this new? The HACCP I did back when I had a job that required it only required calibration in ice water. There’s no way we would even have had access to a lab-calibrated thermometer.

        1. Liane*

          I did thermometer calibrations in QA/QC labs in the 90s and they were 3 point calibrations, in SOPs and regulations. (Water Quality and Pharmaceutical/medical device industries.)

        2. JennyFair*

          It all depends on what standard you’re held to, which is why I suggested checking on that standard :) It varies, but a thermometer can hit a single point and still be badly calibrated–kind of like the broken clock being right twice a day.

          1. Natalie*

            I experienced that with a kitchen thermometer – it was calibrated at freezing, but not at higher ranges. Pretty useless since I wanted it for checking meat.

    14. MK*

      I’m a Quality Manager at a food processing facility. I’ve had people report things like this and have caught them myself. I always keep their feedback anonymous when I address it, and you can bet your ass I address it and follow up until it stops.

      Tell the QA Manager.

    15. Student*

      From the context you’ve given here, your department is incredibly stupid and you should leave. Fahrenheit instead of Celsius, and a thermometer with a tech level from the 90’s, tells me everything I need to know about your operation.

      It tells me you don’t actually need to be doing this rote process every week, you don’t use the data for anything, none of you understand why you are doing it, and it’s possible the data doesn’t go to anybody at all who does know what’s happening. You do this thing because it’s always been done that way, because maybe there is some rule about it that’s not based in any facts, and that’s it.

      You could buy a thermometer online for ~$40 bucks that is more accurate and is read out digitally, automatically, with no need for somebody to write crap down (falsely) on a log. You could have it continuously record the data to a database for you. It pays for itself simply by virtue of your colleagues no longer putting you all in jeopardy for being fired, no?

      1. Anna*

        You are inferring quite a lot out very little actual information. It says to me that you are jumping to conclusions about an industry you probably know very little about, if anything at all.

        The OP states they are required to take the measurements, so let’s assume they know they need to take them and they know best why it’s done and how it’s done.

    16. Is Genevieve pronounced Jen A Veev or Zsahn Vee Ayve*

      If it’s this big of a deal, I think it needs to be brought up. Also, the method for recording needs to be changed. Either it needs to be a designated person, the same person, every week or there needs to be a log of WHO is doing the checking, so that it can be tracked back to them. Even as simple as their initials on their line of the log, or something. But I’m surprised, if this is technically something that could get a lot of people in big trouble, that there isn’t a bigger checks/balances system for who is recording the data.

    17. Anon right now*

      I work in QA and yes this is something that should be reported. Now this all depends on how good your QA department and managers are. If you have reasonable QA and management who actually believe in doing a good job ask the question, don’t make accusations about what other people are doing, just along the lines of “When I’m recording the data from the model 100 I can only report whole numbers should I be moving another model to get a more accurate reading to one decimal place?” Even if you know it’s not possible to use the other model ask the question don’t go to anyone saying people are falsifying Data unless you have seen it first hand. Treat it like a training issue you noticed others can give a decimal place and you need to know how to determine it.
      If there is a dysfunctional culture ask the same question but CYA, now here I am not sure about advice for the US but in Europe if you have proof you alerted your direct manager (so bcc your personal account in the email or print a copy for yourself) if they try to get rid of you you have an alternate reason they want rid of you and a huge problem for them.to try to explain to the regulator when it gets mentioned in an unfair dismissals suit (which won’t happen because of the regulator thing)
      And yes I know, in my ‘ivory tower in QA’ it’s easy for me to say this, I don’t have to work with the people who will get in trouble every day of every shift but the thing is now you know, and there is documented evidence you knew (you record two things to one decimal place and one to none) if it gets discovered in an audit will your management just throw you under the bus? Claim you were the one who was wrong and try cover it up? My experience of auditors is mostly they are so busy they will just make a finding of “on certain days temperature was not recorded to one decimal place” and not go further.
      Tl/der Please make sure you can’t be put in the wrong, you are doing the right thing, make sure that can’t come back and bite you. Sorry it might make people upset with you but look after you

    18. AcademiaNut*

      You’ve caught people falsifying records, and you’re pretty sure they’re doing so in other situations that are harder to prove. You have good reason to believe that your supervisor would turn a blind eye and sweep it under the rug if you reported it to them. Your workplace has a culture of hiding other people’s wrongdoings in the name of ‘having each other’s back’ which makes you reluctant to speak up and afraid of retribution for being a snitch. And in your field, falsifying this sort of data is a big deal, fired for cause, regulatory bodies involved type of problem – it isn’t something minor.

      What this says to me is that you are working in the kind of place that surprise inspections and anonymous hotlines were designed for. They aren’t interested in following the law, and would rather protect the lawbreakers in favour of punishing anyone who dares to speak up, which is seriously dysfunctional.

      So yes, I’d say you should not report this to your boss, but definitely call a higher lever regulatory agency, preferably one with anonymity or protections for whistleblowers.

  8. Beancounter in Texas*

    About six months ago, I connected with a few recruiters and employment agencies, before temping and landing a regular job through temping. Now that I’ve been employed full time for three months, I’m still getting calls from these agencies and recruiters every once in a while and I’m unsure what to tell them. While I’m not 100% pleased with my current job, I’m comfortable enough that I don’t want to jump ship yet, so that my job history doesn’t look like I’m job hopping. I want to retain the relationships with the agencies, but I don’t want to waste their time by letting them believe I’m a potential candidate right now. What can I tell them when they call?

    1. bopper*

      I currently have a full time job so am not currently looking. However, is it possible for you to keep me on your list for the future if I have a need?

    2. Emmie*

      I’d say something like “I accepted a full-time position 3 months ago. I usually make long term commitments to employers. There are admittedly some things at this company that drive me to search for a different position a bit earlier – around October. I will be looking for x, y, and z.” Perhaps others have input too!

      1. zora*

        This is perfect. Give them an idea of a timeline, so that they can stop bugging you for now, but know that you don’t want them to delete your info.

        You definitely want them to have an idea of what you are looking for, a good staffing company thinks about long-term fit, and will want to know these things so they can help you find something really great for both you and the employer!

    3. Jenbug*

      Tell them you’re not currently looking and will contact them when you are ready to start your search again. It shouldn’t damage your relationship with them at all because it’s a pretty common thing.

    4. Sibley*

      Hey, I’m good for now, thanks, but I’ll keep you in mind if I want to start looking.

      Though I suspect that they do mail merge type emails periodically.

    5. Marisol*

      I like the idea of giving them a timeline as Emmie suggests and I personally would say almost exactly what you write above: “I’m not ready to jump ship yet, but I’d like to maintain my relationship with you for my future job searches.” I would also make a point to reinforce any personal connection you might have with them–schmooze, in other words. I always feel so indebted to my recruiters for basically handling my job search for me, and have gotten to know them somewhat over the years, that the schmoozing is genuine. Small talk, if you know any of the same people in the industry, that sort of thing. It never hurts to do that, both for political reasons (so that they remember you) and because relating to someone on a more personal level is kind.

    6. Honeybee*

      When recruiters e-mail me, I usually just respond back that I am currently happy with my position and not looking to leave, but I’d like to stay in contact with them to hear about future opportunities. In a few cases the recruiters have offered to have a short conversation with me anyway about what’s going on at their companies and I’ve sometimes accepted if the company is attractive enough.

    2. Creag an Tuire*

      I remember reading that and thinking “a lot of this matches Allison’s advice, if Allison were really foul-mouthed and fond of dick jokes”.

  10. HeyNonnyNonny*

    Well, this week has been pretty awful.

    I’m starting to get the idea that part of the reason I’m being rejected after interviews is that I look too young (I’m 25 but pretty often get assessed as 18 or so and I’m really short). I’m interviewing in libraries (with an MLIS), so I don’t usually go full-on suit for interviews and do minimal makeup, but does anyone recommend anything else?

    The latest rejection said I interviewed well but didn’t articulate why I was a good fit for the job as well as other candidates — this seems totally contradictory to me, so I have no idea what’s going on. My SO thinks they’re just avoiding telling me they simply didn’t like me. I use Allison’s guide and take all feedback to heart, so I’m lost. They also suggested I do programming at the job I currently have with them which is just four hours a week (while serving on the desk and doing other duties). I don’t know if she’s suggesting I plan programs outside work hours, but frankly, I have a full time job, two part time jobs, and I volunteer in five different capacities (no kidding). I was asked to apply for this position and had an internal reference. What else can I possibly do?

    I’m pretty jaded at this point but I have to get out of my current situation (see “pretty awful” above — I won’t get into details, but essentially, I’m seriously being taken advantage of financially at my job among other issues). Help?

    1. LQ*

      This doesn’t sound like a contradiction at all. You sound good, but you have to make it about That Specific Job. So if it is a job working with youth, why, what experience, etc. Talk about the community, talk about the neighborhood, talk about the things that matter for that job. What can you bring to this specific job. It might also be that someone else had experience at that library, in that community, in that specific part and so was just slightly edging you out because you were great but they were amazing. That happens sometimes too.

      I’m not entirely sure if this position was an internal job? If it was and your boss is open I think talking about what you can do to improve your chances (if your boss is that kind of boss). And take time to take care of yourself. With a schedule like that it sounds a little overwhelming. Good luck.

    2. GalFriday*

      I’m an associate director at an academic library. It sounds like you were interviewing internally – is that correct?Was the person you were interviewing with your current supervisor? If so, maybe you can bring up to them that you’d like to work more programming into your current working hours and ask how to best balance your other duties against that. Otherwise, it generally sounds like you need to apply to a different library if this is an awful situation for you.

      Their feedback also doesn’t make total sense, but as someone on the interviewer end, I do look for clear articulation from a candidate about what specifically they can bring to this job and why they’d be a good fit, both for the position and culturally.

      Also, speaking of culture, you may want to take that into account when you choose your attire and makeup for the interview. While libraries are generally more casual, we do expect men to interview in suits and women to interview in at least business casual (and I would argue for going a step above that).

      Good luck finding a position! That first professional library job is a tough one to get, but once you have one more doors will open.

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Since you both asked, I’ll reply to my comment — it was internal, but at another branch (one where I worked for a year in circ before being promoted to a librarian position at another branch). I was hoping the promotion would open a lot of doors as I’ve seen it do for others and seems to be partially designed for, but it hasn’t been working out that way. They may not feel I’m a good fit for FT. I disagree, but I guess I can’t do much more about it than what I am now. I am considering reaching out to branch manager since she’s been in on all the interviews I’ve been to and seems to really like me but I want to be respectful of her time and not come across as entitled to the job.

      Thanks for the other bits, LQ and GalFriday. I’ll mull over it some more.

    4. SCAnonabrarian*

      No help, but all my sympathy. Library jobs are so hard to get into, and because most people are basically qualified and decent workers for a (let’s be honest not super mentally challenging job in most cases) it truly does most often come down to intangibles like “fit” and “personal connection” which unfortunately, there’s no real way to help someone with. You just have to mesh well with the department and the interviewer.

      I will say it does sound to me like the interviewer WAS asking you to make programming part of your 4-hour a week current job with them. Talk to your direct supervisor and say that the interviewer suggested it specifically, and ask if you can be involved in any planning or implementing on any level.

      Otherwise, unless you specifically want to be a programming librarian, or work in a department where that is a core competency (children’s departments, adult services departments) then I wouldn’t stress too much about that. Just keep applying and keep your head up. It’s a slow slog to get in anywhere, it really is.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Thanks. I really am interested in programming and had a program-heavy paid job in college that I thought would be a huge plus, but it’s mostly being ignored. I’m working on putting together a portfolio of those programs anyway as a sort of program model catalog for my professional blog to see if that helps any. All my positions are at libraries but the FT one is special so there’s really no programming to be done and the other two, I either don’t have time or am not in a position to put on programs due to the nature of the job and the schedule. So frustrating!

        But I appreciate the pep talk. FT is really toxic and it’s so discouraging to keep getting rejected.

        1. SCAnonabrarian*

          You’re welcome. I wish I could be more help.

          I will say that in my experience it is very common for libraries to discount any programming experience done in other contexts. I have no idea why, but there it is. If you DO want to go in for programming, even if you know your current positions aren’t a fit for it, consider talking to your various supervisors (or if you know them, and have the ok from your supervisors – going directly to the programming people) and telling them how much you really want to develop in that direction and to keep you in mind if they need any help at all with programming. It isn’t ideal, and they’ll probably brush you off, but at least you’ve got it in their ear that you are interested which they’ll hopefully remember later.

    5. fposte*

      If it was an internal position, looking young isn’t likely to have been a factor, because they know what you look like already. And your SO may be right, if they already know you, that they’re just not that into you and it’s not a place to look for advancement.

      However, “interview well” can mean a lot of things, but it almost never means “interviewed perfectly,” and it sounds like they needed more help from you to envision you in the role. That could mean presenting with more authority, more ownership, even more expertise (it sounds like there’s a possibility they were looking more programming experience than you have). But for me the first two are really important–I want not just to think a candidate would be okay in the job but to start building dreams on her, if you’ll pardon the slight hyperbole; a really strong candidate makes me aware of new places the job could go and problems she might be able to newly solve.

      While you shouldn’t remake yourself based on comments after a single interview, that might be worth thinking about; I also think you might be able to leverage your insider status to see if somebody involved in the process would be willing to chat with you more about your application package and the challenges you’re facing. Not in a “Why didn’t you give me the job?” way, but more like “I’m having a hard time making it past interviews and I think I could be stronger. You’ve seen me; if you told me two things to work on what would they be?”

      Good luck; I know the patchwork career thing gets really old.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        Interesting points. I got the impression that, when I brought up some new directions we could take this position with (that were within the parameters of the job description — I wasn’t suggesting I teach how to fly an airplane, but suggested this could be a great opportunity to serve this overlooked community by doing X, Y, and Z and how I had a lot of ideas to make that happen and described some of those), they seemed a little nervous about it. Like, they’re much more about the status quo (which, frankly, I think is part of the reason they’re struggling with funding) than trying new things. Which is another reason why I’m concerned they just don’t think I’m a good fit at the end of the day (but then why keep interviewing me?).

        I did want to reach out to the branch manager, though we work at different locations so I don’t know I could sit down with her at any point. I just struggle with asking people for help because I feel like I’m not important enough/taking up their valuable time.

        Thank you.

        1. Grits McGee*

          I have a suspicious (and deeply cynical) feeling that the new ideas may have been an issue. I’ve only got some limited experience in academic libraries, but from what I’ve seen, the status quo can be a very powerful force, even if higher ups are supposedly hiring for someone to shake things up. The university library I worked in would set all of their poor new hires up for failure by selling applicants on how much they wanted change. Then, once the new person got started, cue the wailing, the screaming, and the gnashing of teeth and rending of clothes when new hire suggested investigating a new cataloging system.

          1. HeyNonnyNonny*

            This one’s a public library, but I’ve noticed they have a much more business-like mindset (both compared to the other branches in the system and as a whole system compared to nearby systems). It’s kind of shocking to me, given that my experience with the field as a whole has been much more about innovation, but I do think it’s entirely possible that’s a big part of what killed this one.

          2. ExcitedAndTerrified*

            In all fairness, a new cataloging system (ie, going from Dewey to LOC) often means changing all existing materials to match the new system… which is a LOT more time intensive than a lot of new hires ever seem to realize.

            It might even require changing your software, which can range from being a simple nightmare (finding new vendors, migrating data, fixing the errors that occur in migration, etc), to being downright impossible (you’re part of an integrated library consortium, and have to stay on the same software as everyone else).

            When you tell someone you want innovation and change as you hire them, you usually mean that you want to see easily tested and implemented suggestions first… not the plans for their proposed remodel of the building, or a complete retooling of your factory, or something similarly major.

        2. fposte*

          Yeah, with an internal hire, it really is possible that reasons given are less significant than “We’re just not feeling it.” But they also can keep calling you in for interviews and have it be legitimate every time. (I’d also say that building my dreams on a candidate doesn’t automatically mean her doing new stuff–the dream can also be that she’ll finally get us on an even keel and squelch all that bickering in youth services.)

          I think reaching out to the branch manager is a good plan, and you can ask for a scheduled phone call if you can’t sit down together.

      2. AnotherLibrarian*

        I really think above it good advice. I really would ask for more feedback after they have completed the process. I’d also say that I think interviewing internally is hard then interviewing externally. Been on both sides of this and it is hard on both sides. Good luck!

        1. HeyNonnyNonny*

          Yeah, I was hoping for some more substantial feedback when I asked the hiring manager. I’m hoping talking to the branch manager will help (and that no one takes it as going above anyone’s head or anything — the hiring manager is newish to the system and I’ve been interviewed by/sort of worked with the branch manager before, so…). Thanks!

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Am agreeing with fposte, as our board recently hired someone.
        Think of it from this perspective: They don’t know what they want. But when they see the right person they will jump.
        We needed someone to tell US what we needed. We are a group who is willing to accept advice/guidance but the person offering that advice must be in control of their subject. Saying,”I don’t know, I can look it up for you and get back to you” is fine. Offering to do something that shows you don’t understand our community is not fine.

        Honestly, you sound like you are spread too thin. You are probably great at what you do but it sounds like you don’t have time to do these great things. Now, you might be saying but-but-but, I am just pointing out as an interviewer I am going to wonder how you even have time to eat and sleep. The interviewer has no clue how their job would fit into your schedule and probably will not ask you that question. But it starts the seeds of doubt growing.

        My suggestions:
        Limit the number of part time jobs and volunteer jobs you list and talk about. Pick one of each that are most relevant and focus on those two. Being a super busy person is a minus not a plus.

        Research the place you apply to, know the place like you know your own hand. The candidate we selected could tell US our stats. She knew the history of our library. Their question to you is “what are you going to do for us?” That means you have to know THEM. If we were talking about the garment industry we would say we wanted a custom tailor NOT a mass manufacturer. Be very familiar with the place you are applying to. Tailor the garment to fit their own unique being.

        I don’t know how to describe this fully, our winning candidate came up with ideas and suggestions that were made to fit us. We could see her ideas would work in our setting. While other candidates were spread really thin and we could see it, this candidate only told us about two things she was doing. Her job and school. She could have been doing other things, but we did not know. She appeared as a very organized, quick thinking professional and she appeared highly focused on the knowing the needs of our library. Even when she interviewed and we showed her the building, she wandered around and asked questions, made out loud notes to herself and so on. She was highly involved from the moment when she walked in. Personally, I think she was asking herself, “Do I even want this job? Let me look around and see if I can work with what is here.”

        I hope this helps. You probably have plenty of good stuff to offer. Put a little more time into organizing what you want to say about the exact job you are applying for. And look outside your current employer, I think that is a given because of what you say here.

        PS: If our director came back and said that a person was refusing to do something that was asked of her, that would be a problem. We assume the director is being fair and choosing task assignments wisely. We assume that there were other things the director is also working with her staff. The fact that she mentioned this would cause us concern. If you feel that you are underpaid for what is asked, my suggestion is to start thinking about this by looking at the library’s financial statements. Where is the money going? Are there concerns about closing the library? Is library usage up or down?
        It’s been my own perspective that if I do not see how I am adding to/enhancing operations then it is reasonable to assume that I am detracting from what is going on. Yes, that’s a little harsh on myself. My belief is very seldom do things stay the same, they either get better or they get worse, even if the change is subtle, it’s still there. Make sure you are showing interest in improvements.

        1. HeyNonnyNonny*

          I really appreciate all the time and thought you put into this answer. I think there’s a lot of context missing that addresses some of this (and I want to reiterate I’m not refusing to do the programming and no one is truly assigning to me, just suggesting — I just don’t see how I can do it well while also working the reference desk, helping with circulation, doing book displays, etc., with just four hours a week and the position is only intended for those hours, so I can’t really get more).

          And I definitely don’t include all my volunteer positions when applying/interviewing — only what’s relevant. Most of them take very little time but have cycles of busy periods and my second job (not the 4-hour one) is on-call, so I’m free to take and leave shifts as I like. So it sounds like I’m busier than I am (but also, it’s not practical to do programming stuff when I’m not doing these other things, partly because I need time to sleep and such and partly because I wouldn’t be paid for that time and I’m pretty sure that’s illegal).

          I do find it challenging to address the specific library each time. I apply to different things so often that it’s hard to keep them straight. I did use the five year plan a lot in this interview and the prep, however, and brought it up and how my ideas would address various areas in it.

          I have a really clear idea of what I think this library needs, but like I said above, I think they’re not up for what they’re perceiving as a lot of risk, even though I’m bringing stuff that’s working fantastically from the neighboring system. The way I see it, I can only give a very educated guess on what they need (unless someone has a suggestion there I’m not thinking of? I do talk to folks in the system about this but everyone is vague about it) but I can’t read their minds.

          And I’m working on professional development. My current supervisor in that system asked me to do a particular task. I realized I didn’t really understand the big picture, so I took a several-week class on the topic, just for that purpose.

    6. College Career Counselor*

      You can interview well (personable, engaged, active listener, etc. ) and still not articulate how your experience/education/skills are a good fit for the job. You may well have articulated that, but the other candidates did it better in the eyes of the interviewers.

      If you’re really interested in getting more experience/exposure to this organization, I’d ask the person who suggests you do programming what that might look like or even ask bluntly if additional experience in that capacity might lead to greater consideration for fulltime employment. Also, if you’re doing five different volunteer activities, maybe you could let some of those go in favor of this, which might relate more to your employer of interest? Or is all your volunteer work at this employer?

    7. EA*

      A couple of items from someone who also looks younger then her age- although you may not need to wear a traditional suit to an interview, but you may want to think about the messaging of your interview clothes- I avoid skirts (I usually do wide legged trousers, shell top and blazer with a sensible heel) and jewelry other then my wedding ring and simple stud earrings for interviews.
      Also, emphasize your experience in your answers and make it clear that you have a variety of different job experiences.
      Just my two cents, I’m not currently interviewing as I’m in a position that’s a great fit for me, but spent 8 months of 2015 interviewing for positions and started to hone in on how to present myself during interviews

    8. Marzipan*

      That doesn’t sound contradictory to me. “You interviewed well” = you were a good candidate, there were no major problems with your responses and generally you came across well. “You didn’t articulate why you were a good fit for the job as well as other candidates” = a specific (and, potentially, actionable for the future) piece of feedback about what the successful candidate did more of in their interview to give them the edge over you. I know it’s really disappointing not to get the job, but I’m not hearing anything there that indicates they don’t like you. It’s really hard to give detailed feedback to good, appointable candidates who just missed out on a role, because the reason for them missing out often isn’t down to any real problem or deficiency with their application or interview, it’s just some small extra thing that another candidate brought to the table – which is a particularly frustrating situation to be in as the person who doesn’t get appointed, because all they can really tell you is “we thought you were great and you could definitely do the job, but we hired someone else”.

    9. Cass*

      I have a similar look – still mistaken for an intern at 28. I wonder whether it’s my general awkwardness sometimes. But for my interview for my current job, I tried hard to adopt a “fake it till you make it” type of confidence. Not sure if that will be helpful for you…

    10. Aisling*

      I also work in a library system with multiple branches, and if you’re getting interviews, it sounds like they do like you. This may be more of a “fit” issue than a qualification issue. I know coworkers who applied for a position at one branch, were rejected, and were hired on at another branch in the same type of position. Each branch and each department has their own culture, and if you’re not a good fit there wouldn’t really be any way to tell you that.

      I also think that if you’re an internal candidate, they will be expecting more from you than outside candidates. You know the system, you have access to strategic plans and goals, and should be able to tailor responses based on that. An outside candidate will be able to get away with “I’m not sure how you do it, but I would do…” answer, whereas you will be expected to know the policy.

      I would also refrain from giving ideas of how to expand the position unless they specifically asked you for ideas. Otherwise, it could sound like one of two things: that you don’t actually want the position advertised, and will continually bump heads with your supervisor trying to make it in to the position you want, or it could scare the library management because they’re happy with the status quo and are looking for someone who won’t rock the boat. There are positions where innovation is expected and appreciated, but it doesn’t sound like this is one.

      For programming experience- you wouldn’t necessarily have to do a program on your own from scratch. You can assist someone else with one or co-present, to make it easier for your schedule. Since they specifically mentioned that, I’d try to find a way to get a bit more experience.

    11. ExcitedAndTerrified*

      “I’m starting to get the idea that part of the reason I’m being rejected after interviews is that I look too young (I’m 25 but pretty often get assessed as 18 or so and I’m really short). I’m interviewing in libraries (with an MLIS), so I don’t usually go full-on suit for interviews and do minimal makeup, but does anyone recommend anything else?”

      Even though you won’t be wearing business clothing everyday, you should very definitely be dressing at a suit and tie level for your interviews (though I would recommend maintaining the minimal makeup). You have a degree that allows you to seek work with a professional title (Librarian), and are interviewing for work within that profession (libraries). Not dressing like a professional for the interview suggests to your interviewer that you don’t really think of yourself, or the position you’re applying for, as professional… which can be problematic on all sorts of levels. They don’t know if you’re likely to stick around, they might feel that you’re contemptuous of your own degree (and by extension theirs, if they have one), etc. Most business professionals don’t wear suits everyday anymore, but nearly all of them would expect to still wear one at an interview.

      This may also help you with your concern about your apparent age: Often the problem with looking too young as an employee is that you leave questions at the back of someone’s mind about how mature or experienced you are. Most people have been taught, over the course of their lives, to see formal clothing as a thing which signifies responsibility, decorum, power, status, and yes, even experience and maturity… so by dressing on a business level, you’re helping to allay the (quite possibly subconscious) concerns your interviewer might have about your maturity and experience, based on your appearance.

      Aside from that… I recently landed a position rolling out a Makerspace in a public library, and found it really helpful to have three different program ideas to talk about during the interview. Two of them should be rather basic and cheap, because money is always a problem in libraries, in my experience (I once got yelled at by a director for not buying the cheapest pens available for an ongoing adult coloring program. Difference between the packages? Oh, that was about $3 each, and we bought 10 packs a year. Annual budget for the facility? $1.8 million). One of them should be kind of off the wall, and might be expensive… but you mention that, saying something along the lines of “we’d have to make some partnerships/do some fundraising, but if we had the money, it would be kind of neat to do X”. Take a look at the library’s event calendar, and think of programs they haven’t offered before, if you can. And make note of anything that they have offered but aren’t anymore, which seems relevant to the position. Ask about that program in the interview, and try to find out why they aren’t offering it now (for instance, did they suspend computer training for manpower reasons, or because not enough people were interested?)

      Be excited about the facility and its future. Which means reading the strategic plan, looking at the history, and trying to get a feel about where the institution is going.

      Also… I have to admit that I’m not a fan of volunteering at a facility you hope to get hired at. To me, it feels too much like giving away free samples of my work. Why would they want to pay you as an employee, if they can get the same services for free, or for a small honorarium?

  11. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Just a rant: I have to work today in a keyboard intensive job with a badly sprained wrist on my dominant hand. Because I don’t get PTO as a contractor and my wife and I have $120 to our names till NEXT Friday. Because there was an issue that made my last project get cancelled, and my wife is having mental health issues and has been on disability or part time since the week after Thanksgiving. So I have to work with an actual injury because the form couldn’t get it together and my wife couldn’t stick it out.

    2. Temperance*

      Does your firm have speech-to-text software available that they can install for you while you’re injured? That sounds really frustrating.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Well, the actual work is mousing, which is right. But I can’t take notes to understand the documents, or easily type attorney comments or email.

        1. Red Reader*

          on the mousing — would it be possible to get a thumb-based trackball? Logitech has a fantastic one that’s not terribly expensive, and experience says it requires very little wrist movement to operate. It’s the Logitech M570, and I got mine through Amazon where it is currently $24.99, but it’s probably available in brick and mortar stores as well.

          That doesn’t help with the typing though :( That sucks, I’m sorry.

          1. Judy*

            You can also switch the mouse to use with the other hand, if it helps.

            What about using text to speech on your phone for notes, then transferring to the computer?

          2. Not So NewReader*

            I have one and it is wonderful, wonderful.

            Also, OP, grocery stores around here sell wrists braces for less than $10. If you go to a drug store it’s more than double that. I can tell you it was some of the best money I spent when I was having wrist trouble.
            Also arnica cream works well and has no scent. You can find that at a good grocery store also.

            These two things made a big difference in my wrist.

    3. anon today*

      Do you have a local food pantry you could go to for the next week or two? I’ve done that a couple times when I’ve had to take a sick day (always unpaid, so i feel you)…went this week actually and I got fresh basil in the produce bag!! Some let you ‘shop’ the various categories, too, so you can pick what you want. Made a yummy sauce with the diced tomatos, white beans, and olives I picked out, and then served it over whole wheat pasta they gave me….filling, nutritious, AND enough for leftovers! Sometimes I’ve felt a little guilty going, because in the grand scheme of things I’m better off financially than many of the people there, so I only go on the weeks I absolutely need to, and I only take enough food to supplement what I already have/can afford to buy.

    4. jelly bean*

      My husband also has mental health issues and took medical leave from work a few times over the past couple of years (each time at least two months long). I know from experience how difficult, scary, frustrating, and completely draining it is to deal with that kind of situation. My heart goes out to you, and I hope things get better very soon.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Thanks. Every time I try to talk about her working more hours now, she says pressuring her makes it worse; but she is the person with the stable job. OTOH, I just need to know that if a contract gets cancelled or I get fired, we can still, you know, live. And I feel like she’s ostriching about the facts that we had to move a bill over to next paycheck and only now have $120 left and have used all savings. When survival > health, you shouldn’t leave off work because you are anxious about it (and I say that as someone with anxiety).

        1. jelly bean*

          Yes. It is so hard to be the strong one while your spouse is falling apart. You want to fall apart, too, and you just can’t because someone has to keep everything together. It taught me, though, that I was capable of being the strong one — I didn’t know I had that in me. It might sound silly, but the Wilson Phillips song “Hold On” ran through my head a lot during those times. Sometimes all I felt able to do was hold on for one more day, but each day became another and we got through it. I don’t know what your wife is going through, but medication and talk therapy worked very well for my husband. It enabled him to go back to work and recently he was able to move on to something much less stressful and better suited to him.

          Your post brought back so many memories, and made me realize that we did, in fact, get through those dark days when everything seemed hopeless. You’ll get through them, too. You’re in my thoughts today.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Couples can take turns “carrying” each other, one person seems to be working on a side issue and the other person seems to be keeping everything afloat. It’s daunting and that is on a good day.

            One thing I have done is decide to constantly look at spending in good times and in a bad times. It seems to make it less torture when times get tight because it is my habit to watch recurring expenditures anyway. Unfortunately, I had to decide on this new life habit BECAUSE things got tight. Once in place, however, it’s a keeper and it’s been a very helpful habit to have. This is something that plays out over time and not something that offers immediate satisfaction or help, though. Sorry, OP. I wish I could just make a wish and things would get easier for you right now.

            1. Schmitt*

              That’s how these things go, yeah – I carried my wife when she was unemployed and she carried me when I broke my ankle.

              I read once that a marriage is always made up of 100%. Sometimes you are the one giving 90% and sometimes you are only able to give 10%, and that’s OK.

            2. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

              This. When I was off for four months between jobs with the back injury the other half got up every day and went to work and his check paid most of the bills. Thankfully we had some savings, and while it would have been nice to have delayed starting until after the holidays, it would have been a waste of cash and taken us down to almost zero. He carried us for that time, so I went back to work and sucked it up (not so much pain, just really tired). Actually I got stronger because I was back on the commute.

              I helped carry him while he finished school, he also covered when he got a job first when we moved here. If hes sick, I do the cooking, if I’m having “a day”, I tell him I need to go “take time out” and he will start dinner until I am calmed down. We definitely don’t keep score, its just knowing that if you are down someone is there to back you up and vice versa.

              For some good filling recipes for not much cash, try budgetbytes.com. She has some great ideas using basic pantry staples.

        2. Christy*

          Is your wife in treatment for her mental health issues? It’s got to be so hard for you to be the one keeping it all together. I’m the one with the mental health issues in my marriage, and I definitely understand your wife feeling paralyzed with anxiety, but eventually something has to change. For me, it was therapy, Wellbutrin, and Xanax. I’m lucky that I have health insurance, but I really think your wife needs treatment, even if it involves (more) debt. Without treatment it’s hard to see a path forward.

          In the meantime if treatment really isn’t something you can afford or she can handle right now, could you and she begin an exercise regimen? I HATE when people are like “yoga is my therapy” but I have to admit that regular cardio and yoga have both really helped my mental health, particularly when combined with, you know, medication and therapy. It might be a tiny first step for her to take to help. (For me, it had to be in the order: therapy, then general exercise, then concerted exercise, then medication, then yoga. Couldn’t have started treating my anxiety any other way.)

          I’ll be thinking of you.

          1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

            She is, and we already work out. The thing is, after the election some stuff happened to me, since I am the Most Gay of us. She needed to be off briefly then because it caused so much fear and depression for her, and then decided if she was already off, she might as well work on some other issues relating to abuse as a kid. Once that started, she couldn’t just put it away and go back to work.

        3. VolunteercoordinatorinNOVA*

          I’m sorry you’re going through a tough time. NAMI (the national alliance on mental illness) offers support groups for families members of people living with mental illness. It can be really beneficial to have some outside people to support you when your partner is struggling. I really struggled with self care when my ex was struggling and just having someone else to talk to about it made a world of difference. You can find out if there are meetings near you here: http://www.nami.org/Find-Support/NAMI-Programs/NAMI-Family-Support-Group

        4. bluesboy*

          I can’t offer much advice, but I feel for you. Spent a month in a keyboard intensive job 18 months ago with a broken arm, so I know how awkward it is, and like you, I was the one taking the family finances on my shoulders. I’ve also lived through the ‘got to somehow make this money get us through to the end of the month’ experience.

          I am racking my brains to try and think of something practical to say, but really can’t other than to reiterate the suggestion up thread to use organisations that provide help with groceries. Too many people think ‘those are for other people’, or for people worse off than me, or their pride gets in the way. Well you know what? You pay your taxes, I’m sure you make charity donations when you can, and these services are for people like you too, not only unemployed or losing their homes. If it makes you feel better about it commit yourself to giving them a donation in a better moment to pay it back/forward.

          Best of luck getting past this.

    5. NaoNao*

      Is there a way you can “outsource” the budget and work discussion? Like maybe start using budgeting software + a working calendar with $$ attached so she can SEE how much the part time work is costing your family?
      Alternatively, can you move the discussion away from what you don’t have and onto what you can do? Like “Okay, let’s proactively parcel this $120.00. Spouse, help me list our expenses, please. Let’s see, bus pass…30$. Food, 50$.” and so on. Maybe that will wake her up to the fact that you need more money, stat.
      If you continue to make it work for both of you while she is having issues, she’ll likely continue to have issues. That’s not saying the issues aren’t real! But if you sort of…drop a little of the “making it work” part (say, letting subscription services lapse, saying “I’m sorry, we don’t have the money for coffee runs, hon” rather than gritting your teeth and going hungry while she has her coffee, telling her “okay, you have 60$ to last 2 weeks. What you do with it is up to you.” and so on.) she may realize “Oh, I kind of have to work it out and figure out how to work through this anxiety.”

    7. Anono-me*

      I second the grocery or big box store wrist wraps.

      A couple of suggestions for all of the other challenges you are dealing with.

      Short term Google “Fare for All” this is a cooperative food buying program. Savings tend to be significant. Go somewhere green like a greenhouse or conservatory. Go somewhere you can feel safe

      Can you ask to meet with your wife’s therapist to discuss healthy and productive ways you can support her and your self. (Remember what airlines say about 02 masks.)

      Take care of yourselves.

  12. Pup Seal*

    I had a job interview yesterday. It went well, and I think I was the last person they interviewed for the position. Really nervous because the job sounds great and a great fit for me, but where I live many people have the same job skill set as I do. I’m sure this position had many applicants.

    And if you live in the Midwest, it is soooooo cold out! My office is next to a loading dock where people are constantly going in and out. I just hope the pipes don’t freeze and burst like they did last year.

    1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      I know! At least there are skyways where I am! I almost missed my commuter bus today though because it was just too cold to want to leave my car at the park and ride.

    2. Anon13*

      Good luck with the job!

      And I live in Ohio, so it may be even worse where you are, but it’s 6 degrees here, so I understand your pain!

      1. Pup Seal*

        My car said it was 0 degrees when I was driving in this morning. I’ll take that extra 6 degrees!

    3. Rachel*

      We’re up to 4 degrees where I am! It was 0 degrees when I left for work this morning. My feet are still cold!

      1. SophieChotek*

        Minus two here (up 2 degrees from minus 4 a few hours ago). “It feels like” minus 13.
        Tomorrow at least the high will be a single did above zero.
        Yay
        Sitting here with my hat on, and my jacket,and fingerless gloves and a fleece blanket over my legs.
        Yay winter (???)

        1. Coalea*

          It’s a balmy 19 where I am, but I’m still wrapped in a blanket and wearing a scarf and 2 pairs of socks. Do those fingerless gloves work well? My hands are freezing!

          1. SophieChotek*

            They definitely help! My hands are still colder, but it’s an improvement over what they were.
            (I cannot type with full gloves one; tried but just couldn’t quite get the traction I needed plus sometimes they didn’t quite fit right so then I’d hit the wrong key.) I was lucky and found a pair of fingerless gloves (including the thumb) at Target that are thinner cotton at Target for under $3 for the pair. The quality is average, but I tried the fingerless gloves-with-covered-thumb-fleece pair (Eddie Bauer) and that was way too bulky.

          2. silence*

            finger less gloves are good. What’s even better is heated fingerless gloves that you plug into a usb port.

      2. Tris Prior*

        It was 1 when I left the house this morning. Now it’s up to 7. Heat wave! :P

        I really wish “calling in cold” was a thing.

    4. Marillenbaum*

      I feel you–I’m visiting my parents back in Utah, and it’s four degrees today. And my mother accidentally grabbed my gloves AND hers when she left for work this morning. Guess who’s not leaving the house today?

    5. Electric Hedgehog*

      Wow, I’m glad I live in Tucson. It’ll hit 61 today. Plus, housing is cheap! The trick is, of course, finding a decent job…

        1. Charlie*

          I have family in Tucson. If you live in the right part of town, I rather like it. The summers are brutal, but it’s mild in the spring and fall, and the mountains are right there.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      I had to turn up the heater today. Which I hate doing because gas is expensive. I supplement with electric radiators, but they can’t handle deep cold by themselves. ALL the windows are shrink-wrapped but this house is made of cardboard.

      I don’t think I’ll walk outside today. Tomorrow is supposed to be 31 so I can do it then.

      1. NaoNao*

        Elizabeth, I don’t want to “out” you but any chance you’re in the Denver area? It’s supposed to be 31 here tomorrow too! I ask because my mega-corp (which I will name in a private email if you are in my area) is always hiring and I may have some possible contacts/possible leads for you if you are!! And if you aren’t, this corp owns ALL OF AMERICA HA AHAHAHAH (just kidding. kind of.) so I may be able to direct you to some at least part time/for now type work in your area!
        Internet me! (The 2017 version of “call me”)

    7. Zip Silver*

      Dropped down to 81 here in Florida. I might not run the AC today, depending on if I get today or not.

  13. Temperance*

    I’m currently engaged in a game of “not my job” chicken with our Diversity Program Coordinator. Her strategy was to loop me in on something that has nothing to do with me so I would take over, so I’m playing dumb and just forwarded her my information for the project.

    I’m determined not to help her/take over this very unpleasant, and boring task that has nothing to do with my job. Has anyone else done this? Any good strategies for working with a pusher? I’m currently pretending not to recognize what she’s doing.

    1. Lindsey*

      Yes, you’re handling this the perfect way.

      Honestly, though, if this is just someone’s personality (and OMG I had one of those), then you need to be super-explicit. “Hey, saw that you forwarded me XYZ, is there something you wanted me to do with that? It’s not in my scope, so are you just keeping me in the loop?”

      Just play dumb and continue to push on why they’re sending you things until they admit that it has nothing to do with you.

      1. Temperance*

        It’s totally her personality, but if I ASK her, she’s going to say “oh, it’s so you can do the MLK Day planning!”, which, you know, is Not My Job. If I ignore it, she’ll have to either do it herself or ask me directly. Pretty much it can’t come back to me if it doesn’t get done, but has massive consequences for her, since it’s basically her whole job.

        1. Emac*

          I think the playing dumb and ignoring it works. But if you want to try to get her to stop, could you say something like: “Just FYI – X actually isn’t part of my job, so you don’t need to keep me in the loop on that, thanks.”

          2. Rusty Shackelford*

            Or “Did you mean to send this to somebody else? It’s not my project so I thought maybe auto-fill took over.”

    2. Emily*

      I can totally relate to this! My supervisor takes care of A/R, while I take care of A/P. He is always forwarding me A/R related requests to avoid doing them himself. I think you are handling it correctly!

    3. Jadelyn*

      If she keeps it up, it’s looking like you’re going to get stuck with it, and you know you can trust your manager to have your back on this, I’d cc your boss on a reply and say something like “I just want to make sure I’m clear – you want me to do X, Y, and Z, right? I’m not sure that’s feasible with my workload right now, in order to take that on I’d have to drop A, B, and C. Boss, how would you like me to prioritize this?” It’s kind of a last-resort ploy because if your boss sides with your coworker you get stuck with the task – but if she won’t drop it, and if you know your boss is willing to help you protect your time so you can work on your actual job, this is a polite way to say “boss, tell her to leave me alone so I can do my real job.” I’ve used this before because my manager and I have talked explicitly about my needing to push back on some people, and she’s told me she is happy to be the cavalry and come riding in to run interference when I need it, but it really really depends on if you’ve got that kind of manager!

      1. Temperance*

        The beautiful thing about this is that the task is explicitly within her job description and seriously nowhere near mine. I did let my boss know that Diversity Coordinator was pushing work again, and that I was handling by pretending to ignore it (since this is DC’s strategy, because once you CALL HER on it, she’ll claim that’s not what she was doing at all). I don’t even owe her an explanation of me not doing her job.

        My boss won’t side with DC because she wants me to do my job. ;)

    4. TL -*

      Can you give her a unacceptably long timeline? If she asks you to do something, you can semi-agree by saying you’d love to help and you’d probably have time in July (for instance), based on your current schedule.

      1. Temperance*

        It’s for a project that is happening in 2 weeks, so no. Plus, she’s not my superior – rank-wise, she’s probably actually beneath me because she’s a secretary, too. I’m not budging on this one.

        1. TL -*

          Well that’s what I meant – oh, I wouldn’t have time for this until Feb. 3rd, so if you still need help then, just let me know.
          But that’s only if you’ll get pushback for ever saying no (I had a job like that so that was an excellent strategy.) If not, I think you can just ignore and say no if it comes to it.

    5. CM*

      I agree that ignoring and playing dumb is the best strategy, and you should stick with it! To the point where, if she comes out and asks you outright to do something, you could reply, “Oh, did you need help with that? I thought you were just copying me on emails so I would be informed. Unfortunately, I won’t be able to help you with that because I’m focused on X and Y.”

      Actually, I just dealt with a “pusher” by sending a super friendly note that said, “Hi Pusher! Sorry, I can’t help with that. Hope you’re doing well!” And I got an “ok, thanks” back. It felt good.

    6. AndersonDarling*

      Ooo, I’m on fire remembering one of our directors that would pull this sort of trick. She would say she needed someone trained to back up a process, then spring the full responsibility on them in the training.

    7. Dr. Doll*

      Mmpf. I like CM’s approach: direct. “Sorry, I can’t help with that further than the information I’ve already sent.” (And I’d even be tempted to leave off the sorry.)

    8. Poster Child*

      If she’s not asking you for something directly, ignoring it is the right response. She needs to be direct if she wants you to do something outside your job scope, and thus allow you to say yes or no.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t let it go on and on.
      I tell the boss it’s time for intercession. And the boss tells the person to cut the crap.
      Over. Done.

      And I am the type of person who will help anyone. I refuse to do their job for them, though.

    10. Marisol*

      I see nothing wrong with playing dumb. It seems to me that if push comes to shove and anyone gets called out, you won’t get into trouble, she will. Like no one will be saying to you, “Temperance, why didn’t you take action on that project?” and if they did, you’d simply say, “why would I? It’s not my job” and that’s kind of the last word on the subject–what can they say to that? You have all the power in this situation as I’m sure you know. So I’m not sure I’d be proactive about pushing back, but if it happens so frequently that the volume of emails is a problem, and you do want to push back, perhaps you could respond by telling her to take you off the distribution list: “Prudence, thanks for keeping me in the loop. Unfortunately I receive so many emails that I’m not able to monitor this topic. Please take me off the distribution list. Thanks.”

      So you’re not asking, you’re *telling*, and then if this should come up again in the future, you can make a case for insubordination (or something along those lines) because you politely and clearly made a request which she chose to ignore. It’s sort of a nice way to lay the groundwork for getting her into trouble, should you choose to go that route. And it’s unlikely that she would balk at your request, since that would bring her weaseling out into the light. More likely, she’ll just slither off. Unless your office is majorly political and dramatic, in which case, she’ll fight you, but you will win.

    11. Anon3*

      Yep- ignore. My co-worker wasn’t doing her job. I’d overhear my boss asking her over and over again regarding a certain project. Then he started “looping” me into emails and meetings. I just didn’t respond to any emails, and sat smiling quietly at meetings. I had enough on my plate.

  14. Karanda Baywood*

    Pet Peeve time:

    Coworker who drags his feet as he walks. “Schlump schlump schlump schlump…”

      1. Audiophile*

        Anyone who does this, either at work or in the house, gets on my nerves. Just blow your nose, it’s so much easier.

        1. Simms*

          Depending on the shape of their sinuses it may not be. I get no relief from blowing my nose, it’ll just keep dripping/running until I sniff.

          1. Audiophile*

            It’s not an issue so much at work, as it is with my siblings. I’d hazard a guess that it’s the shape of their sinuses and it’s just because they don’t want to be bothered to get up and blow their nose. They’d rather just sit there and sniff.

        2. silence*

          that’s my opinion also but worked in the same room as someone who thought nose blowing was rude and sniffing was so much more polite. I kept offering her tissues until she asked me to go to the bathroom any time I needed to blow my nose at which point I realised we were coming from such different perspectives on what was polite and gave up. We were not compatible office mates in cold season.

    2. Amadeo*

      The Office Whistler, The Office Hummer.

      Or that coworker who likes to talk so much that in order to avoid being dragged into an hour-long conversation about nothing you have to answer them and keep walking away as you do. Because if you stop, you’re sunk.

      2. DaBlonde*

        I had a manager that would talk to you nonstop if you went into her office.
        My coworkers and I actually set up a system of rescuing each other after about ten minutes.

      3. Drew*

        We have one of those who works in another building, so when she comes over to our building it’s like she has entire conversations saved up and ready to spring on us. I’ve gotten really good at noncommittal “Huh, interesting, gotta email now” responses, but the guy right next to me gets sucked in every time.

        She is also one of those people who understands that my headphones mean “I’m concentrating, do not interrupt,” but not one of the ones who takes the next step to “So please email me or come back later when I’m not so focused”; she just stands there, barely in my line of sight, until I HAVE to stop what I’m doing because her presence is more distracting than just straight up interrupting me would be. Annoyingly, she is not the only person in my office who does this, nor is she the most frequent offender. It’s to the point now where I’ll just preemptively say, “I need to get this done, so please email or IM me instead” as soon as someone comes to my desk and stops.

    3. Hermione*

      The way my next-door neighbor pounces out of her office in one quick swoop: “Creak-SWOOSH-thud!”

    4. Leatherwings*

      The loud chewer. Everyone has to eat lunch, I get it and give you a pass for an hour each day. But if you snack all day, you better do it quietly.

      1. MaggiePi*

        Ice eater! All day long. I can’t stand that sound.
        Continues to eat ice while complaining that’s it’s cold in here… Ugh.

      2. Electric Hedgehog*

        Apparently someone in a previous job lodged a complaint about how loudly I eat apples. Apparently the acoustics in my mouth are perfect for a crunchy symphony of annoyance. Oops.

      3. BAS*

        I apparently eat crunchy snacks in a highly irritating way (we saw a viral video of an otter eating all NOM NOM NOM and it was said to eat like I do), so at the request of my coworkers, I no longer eat the veggie straws. It’s not a big deal to me and I’d rather not set them on edge.

    5. Jules the First*

      The guy with the radio who genuinely thinks it makes the office a “funner” place to work.

          1. Audiophile*

            I sit near someone who plays music. It’s usually at a low volume, which can be good but also irritating. Many times I can still hear it faintly and I’ll ask “what’s that noise? Do you hear it too?”

    6. Temperance*

      The annoying person who will send you something to do, and then check on you every 15 minutes to see whether it’s done. There is one assistant in my office who will send me something to process, and then harass me until it’s done, even if I have more urgent work.

      1. Late & Gone Anon*

        UGH, yes. In a similar vein, grandboss will email something then call to make sure you got it (which is bad enough). What’s worse is that he’ll keep you on the phone for a loooong time discussing it, then ask why you haven’t yet started the thing. So tempted to vent to him, “I would have started that project but I got a call that’s lasted 45 minutes discussing the importance of the project. I’m still handling the call now, but will get to it shortly- if you let me!”

    7. Maxwell Edison*

      People (aka my brother-in-law) who tell me that self-employment/full-time freelancing = “funemployment” or “retirement.”

        1. PurpleHairChick*

          I have a co-worker what critiques my lunch everyday, trying to give me “health tips”. I am a little bigger than I should be but I didnt ask for his advice. I usually eat fairly well but he even tells me how to have a healthier salad. Meanwhile he eat french fries, gravy with cheese curds on them at least three to four times a week for lunch. Why on earth do people think its okay to comment on what others eat?! Let me eat my salad in peace!

          1. MoinMoin*

            To piggyback on this, the people that assume you’re doing something because it’s healthy but they of course know better.
            “You know, there are more calories in that salad than a burger.”
            Maybe I just like salad!

            1. Trix*

              Yes, this!

              Or they ask what I got for lunch, and I’ll say a salad, and they’ll respond with “Oh, good for you, trying to be healthy?”

    8. Lemon Zinger*

      Coworker who invades my personal space and comes up RIGHT next to me in my cubicle when she wants to talk. I never go into her space, so it’s especially irritating that she comes into mine.

      1. Anon13*

        My boss does this! Instead of just coming into my office, he gets right up next to me, behind my desk, or right behind me. It weirdly flusters me.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Ugh. I hate doing it but we have to tell the space invaders to step back. For the most part I have only had to say it once to any given individual. Say it and get it out there in the open.

      1. Nanc*

        Yes! The worst flip flop offender in our building works for another company. She’s about 5′ tall and 90 lbs but the volume of the THWAP THWAP THWAP she generates as she walks is astounding. She’s a very sweet woman but when you hear her coming you wonder if a sumo wrestler is heading your way.

    10. Former Retail Manager*

      New co-worker who walks up and down the aisle past my cubicle like every 30-45 mins. (he is not going to the restroom…he’s just up walking around) I don’t wear headphones and find it distracting. Also, all of the co-workers who are “trying to get in their 10,000 steps for the day” that also walk up and down every single row of cubicles. We literally have like 7 or 8 of these people. If I hear someone coming, it’s usually because they need to speak to me, so I pause what I’m doing upon their approach only to realize that it’s just a “walker.” Sit the F down or get a treadmill desk.

      1. Epsilon Delta*

        Oops, that is me. I try to mix it up by walking past different rows and using the stairs but until it warms up outside I don’t have a lot of options. But I never walk down deadend rows or anything like that.

    11. Weeeeeeeeeeeee*

      We’ve got scream-sneezers! Scares the crap out of me every time because it comes out of nowhere.

      2. MaggiePi*

        I am one of these. I apologize for others of my kind.
        I don’t mean to be, but if I try to hold it in at all, it really hurts and can make my ears pop. If it’s any consolation, I don’t enjoy it either!

        1. CanadianNatasha*

          I’ll add my apology! I’m an loud sneezer too. And mine generally come in 3’s so it’s not just the one big sneeze. I have probably scared coworkers with my sneezes a few times. Honestly, I don’t get how some people can have those tiny kitten sneezes; my body doesn’t allow me to suppress the sneeze pressure like that (and trust me I’ve tried!).

          Ha, after writing sneeze that many times it doesn’t look like a real word anymore.

      3. Mephyle*

        I apologize too. I used to sneeze reasonably, and then something happened a couple years ago, I don’t know what it was but it had to do with some soreness in my hips. So, holding my abs in so that sneezes wouldn’t be so painful turned them into loudly vocalized sneezes and even though my soreness is long gone, I can’t fix the sneezes. The first one always still comes out loudly vocalized. Yet I still hate it just as much when others sneeze weird and/or loud.

    12. Synonymous*

      The SUPERVISOR who comes into your cube to talk about nothing for hour(s). Luckily I work in a 4-person cube, so when I’ve had enough, I just turn to my computer like I just remembered I have something urgent to work on.

    13. zora*

      My coworker who grabs the snack bags, takes them to her desk, and then sticks her hand in the bag and eats from it directly. She just shrugged me off everytime I suggested using the small plates we have. GAH, drives me nuts.

      And not coworkers but office neighbors who put their mugs in the sink instead of in the clearly marked bright red bins that say DIRTY MUGS.

        1. Lillian Styx*

          In my case I don’t think they do! Some of them have no clue how to load a dishwasher. Cups on the bottom rack!? Insanity!

          I don’t say anything but I do rearrange it when no one is looking…

          1. zora*

            We have people who are paid to load and run and empty the dishwashers. All we have to do is put them in the bins instead of in the sink, I don’t understand why that is so hard, it’s literally 4 inches from the sink. I’m about to become That Guy and start pointing it out to people when I see them do it, even though we don’t know each other, we just work on the same floor.

    14. Marillenbaum*

      This was my grandmother’s biggest pet peeve. Failure to comply would result in cries of “Pick up your feet, you’re not in an asylum!” and being passed over for the last slice of cake.

      1. NaoNao*

        That made me laugh! My mom, in a more simpler time (the 80’s) would say “Do you want people to hand you a quarter because they think you’re [disabled, except she didn’t say that!]? Pick up your feet!”

    15. Canadian Natasha*

      Coworker who leans on the back of my office chair hard enough to make it tilt when I show her something on my computer. No touchy touchy! >:-(

        1. Canadian Natasha*

          I did finally say something to her about it but it took me a really long time. I have strong preferences around personal space which I’ve been told all my life are excessive (For example, my family all like to put their feet up on the bottom rung of the chair next to them when we’re sitting at the kitchen table. I can’t stand having someone’s feet on my chair- I can feel it! They think I’m oversensitive.) so I was uncomfortable asserting myself with my coworker.

          1. pugsnbourbon*

            I am, sadly, like your family members. I know it’s a bad habit. It was worst in school when I’d put my feet on the little “basket” under the chair in front of me. My best friend slapped my leg once because she just couldn’t deal anymore.

            1. Kai*

              Oh man, I used to do that all the time too and had forgotten about that basket until now! I wonder if I annoyed any of my classmates…

          2. Arjay*

            I am like you. :)
            Yesterday someone was talking to the woman at the desk in front of mine. We’re searated by a low cube wall, so I get the illusion of privacy when we’re sitting down. The “visitor” was standing by the wall, so sort of inbetween the two of us who were seated. And she put her eyeglasses down on the corner of my desk. The encroachment made me very tense.

            1. Clever Name*

              I would feel the same. And you really can’t say “Can you move your glasses from my space?” without looking unreasonable.

              1. Canadian Natasha*

                Oh, yes. The desk encroachment is so aggravating and you just can’t say anything without seeming like a jerk. And – even worse – don’t get me started on people putting stuff on my chair. One day I may just lose it and start shouting “I sit on this chair, it is not a filing cabinet!” and throw papers in the air like an angry gorilla. (only sort of joking)

          3. Mimmy*

            Oh god are you me?? I can’t STAND having someone’s feet on my chair – drove me nuts in grammar and high school (this was among my many sensitivities).

            1. Canadian Natasha*

              Do you also have peeves involving people flossing, nail picking/clipping, and toothpick using in your vicinity? If so, we may actually be the same person. ;)

    16. Manders*

      Whispering, especially whispering in the break room and making a show of covering your mouth with your hand or glancing pointedly at another person in the room who’s just out of earshot. I have a coworker who does this and it is So. Weird.

      And she has her own office with a door, so if she had something to say in private, she could just invite others in there. But no, she prefers to whisper with an audience.

    17. Older and sadly wiser*

      Cubicle next to the only bathroom AND the supply closet. I’m an accountant, it’s year-end and I just spent the last 2 days covering for another employee on sick leave so I’m behind and NO – I DON’T WANT TO TALK. Even though I’m ignoring people (with head down working) they stand there until I acknowledge them.

    18. Rache*

      I have misophonia… I’m currently using earbuds because the gentleman in the cube near mine has to eat potato chips. Every day.

    19. JustaTech*

      I appreciate the loud walker (but not he guy who drags his hand along the cube walls) because I am easily startled and a shriek-er, so it’s better for everyone if you don’t surprise me.

      1. Karanda Baywood*

        The easily startled shrieker.

        JK. I’m easily startled as well, and I jump right out of my seat.

    20. kbeers*

      My admin, who comments on everything on my schedule and is obviously trying to get the details.
      Her: “Oh, so you’re going to be in late tomorrow…?”
      Me: “Yep.” Turns back to very important email…

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I have both an office chomper and an office slurper, plus an annoyingly enthusiastic phone answerer. I swear one of these days they will break into “Oh what a beautiful morning” or “The sun has got his hat on”.

      2. Marisol*

        you didn’t ask for advice, but I am an executive assistant and am going to offer it anyway. You need to tell your admin what your communication preferences are. She may be under the impression that she needs to know your schedule–my boss always tells me exactly what his plans are and I am expected to know this information; it’s part of my job, and is a general requirement of assistants at many firms. If that’s not the case in your office, great, it’s one less thing she needs to worry about. Just say something like, “I appreciate your conscientiousness, but actually, you don’t have to monitor my schedule so closely. I will let you know the relevant details” and if she bothers you at an inopportune time, then tell her when you do want to speak: “mornings are when I focus on emails. I’d rather talk when I get back from lunch.” Managing an assistant is a skill set that is learned like anything else.

    21. Babs*

      Serious question: Can a repetitive noise cause misophonia?
      I usually have patience for pretty much anyone’s chewing, coughing, snot slurping. Except for my cubical neighbor. Earbuds/music don’t help because I can hear him over it. I brace myself for the stream that starts with a snot slurp, then clear the throat ( phlemmy enough to make me want to gag), him swallowing loudly and then cough-cough about (no exaggeration) every 90 seconds during the day.

      Please say a prayer I make it thru today…he has a cold and he went to the “urgency room” yesterday.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Maybe? Clearing your throat once or twice doesn’t impact me (I also suffer from misophonia). Doing it all day drives me up a freaking wall.

      2. Manders*

        I think it might aggravate a mild case of it. My misophonia isn’t usually too bad, but I had a coworker who was sort of… proud of her lingering chest cough (she was a weird one, she could have stopped it with medication but she told me that she chose not to). After about two weeks of it, my anxiety was permanently heightened.

        I never was able to stop associating her with that feeling of anxiety, although her behavior went off the rails in other ways around that time too.

    22. Anony*

      Office mate who doesn’t mute her phone, then sits in our office and deposits multiple checks into her bank account by taking pictures of them. *snap* *snap* *snap* *snap*

    23. Not So NewReader*

      Dragging the feet: This can be an early symptom of heart disease.

      Maybe you can coax yourself into not letting it annoy you by telling yourself “At least he is not flat on his back in an ambulance and I am glad about that”.

      I dragged my feet when I was a kid. I have many memories of being snapped at “Don’t drag your feet.” I had no idea how to stop dragging my feet. Yep, I was born with heart issues. People who have a bum ticker really have a hard time a) figuring out what they are doing wrong and b) staying on track to correct it. Picture someone strapped cinder blocks to each of your ankles. Now you have to walk around with cinder blocks on each ankle. The adults looked ridiculous to me when they told me to pick up my very heavy feet. They appeared to be clueless.

      As an adult, I got into doing some healthy things that have had major impact on my heart health. I did eventually train my brain to pick up my feet and I see now with proper nutrition I pick up my feet without even thinking about it. Added bonus, I no longer walk over on the sides of my shoes either. Life is good.

      Try to frame it as “his dragging feet could be a symptom of a bigger problem” and see if that helps you to not be so annoyed by it.

      1. Girasol*

        Also badly fitting shoes. Women’s slip ons (like heels) have so little in their design to make them cling firmly to feet. And I got “stop dragging your feet!” from a teacher who didn’t understand that I was supposed to grow into those loafers.

        1. Chocolate Teapot*

          I have a novelty fish screen cleaner, whose nose/snout makes an excellent screen pointer and his fins are made of fake chamois.

    25. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Mumblers. Combined with people who insist on holding their hand in front of their face when they talk. I was born with a hearing impairment and these people are like kryptonite for a guy who relies on reading lips. Hearing aids only help so much.

      1. Red Reader*

        Oh god yes. The number of times I have had to tell my housemate, “I cannot hear you when you mumble into your palm while facing the other direction, SPEAK CLEARLY. USE YOUR WORDS.”

        1. Drew*

          “Dad, I have no idea what you just said because you’re muttering and walking away from me and we’re in a noisy parking lot. Stop, turn around, and SPEAK UP.”

        2. Marisol*

          I hate those hand-in-front-of-face mumblers. I think they are attempting to be polite by not being too loud or by breathing bad breath on you or something. But they’re not polite. They’re rude. I hate them.

    26. Sparkly Librarian*

      My pet peeve of a coworker just walked in the door! First time they’ve worked at this location in almost a year. I am recalling my resolution to give them the benefit of the doubt in regards to customer service.

    27. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      An open office brings them out of the woodwork like mad…

      My last boss sat right next to me on the long bench we all called a desk and ate soup EVERY DAY. Never quietly. Always slurping. In fact, if there was someone near him who he didn’t like he would purposely slurp louder. He would also chew the rolls with his soup loudly with his mouth open. It was horrific. Even better were days when we had team meetings (which he loathed) and he would bring in a fresh fruit cup, eat loudly smacking his lips and THEN lick his hand of the fruit juice. Memories that will live on for ever – I still joke with buddies from that job about those times.

      We also had the “office stomper” – seriously, that guy is going to have major back problems. Stomp Stomp Stomp to the copier. Unfortunately I also live underneath two guys who are stompers at home. You wonder how they stood up to walk when they were kids.

      1. SebbyGrrl*

        LOL – the USlurper!
        I was scrolling up then down to look for another post and passed yours, skimmed it and said to myself “I want to go back to that one.”
        When I was ready to do it I thought “Ok, where was the USlurper?”

    28. Marisol*

      IT guy with a chronic cough that started about 3 months ago, finally got under control, and is now back. I can’t even feel empathy anymore.

    29. Anon3*

      Teeth Sucker OMG!!!!! Our office is whisper quiet, and this drives me nuts. Earbuds help, but I’d prefer not to use them.

    30. vpc*

      The guy who uses a speaker phone for everything.

      yes, I get it, you have an office with a door, not a cubicle, unlike most of the rest of us, and that gives you the illusion of privacy and soundproofing. But the soundproofing’s not that great, and does no good at all if you don’t SHUT THE FLIPPIN’ DOOR. If it bugs you to use the handset, please do use a headset, we make them available to everyone for a reason.

      I bet he doesn’t realize that people two rows away can hear both sides of every conversation, or how the peculiar acoustics of speakerphones make the other person’s side of the conversation much more distracting than his. It’s totally not the same as two people having a conversation in his office with the door open.

  15. Anon13*

    Does anyone have any experience (good or bad) with letting your workplace know you’re looking for a new job without giving a definite end date? I work at a very small business (fewer than five total employees) and I’d like to let them know I’m job searching so they can start to think about hiring my replacement, but I can’t go without a paycheck for more than six months at an absolute maximum (more than two months would require major lifestyle changes). At the same time, the business’s finances don’t allow for having two people doing my job for more than maybe two weeks (possibly a month, but that would really be pushing it). As I mentioned, I’d like to let them know I’m looking so they can prepare, but, at the same time, I’m worried about being pushed out before I’ve found something else. I’d love any tips or any stories about your experiences! Thanks!

    1. Lily Rowan*

      Yeah, it’s a bad idea. Best-case scenario is stressing out your boss, worst-case scenario is being given an end date ASAP. In my first job, I was looking to relocate, so was taking a lot of time off to go to [new city] but couldn’t really afford to leave until I had the new job. So I told my beloved boss what I was doing. She was great about it, but in retrospect, it would have been better for me to give her a date, even one six months out, even if I ended up leaving sooner than that, so we could all plan and not live in limbo.

      1. Anon13*

        Thanks for your input! This is not the reply I was hoping for, but it is the one I expected. I actually quit my last job 4.5 months in advance, but, at the point in my life, I could go quite a bit longer between jobs. I was also moving to another city – it wound up taking me four months from the time I left to find something (admittedly, I wasn’t looking very aggressively before I moved or for the first 6 weeks or so after my move). That four month break in working is easy to explain on my resume because of the relocation and the fact that the primary reason for my move was to help care for a sick family member, so I was also caring for her during those four months, but, in addition to not being able to go more than six months without a paycheck, I worry about having two breaks in employment in a five-year span on my resume.

    2. orchidsandtea*

      I did that at our very small business. The very small business was mostly functional and my boss was both a good human and a good boss. He was pleased with my work and fond of me as a human. I still got pushed out before I’d found something.

      1. Anon13*

        This is my worry. My boss is a great person, as well, and, though we have occasional issues, we function well, with no problem employees, but I’m still really worried about being pushed out. With the same boss at a larger company that could afford to employ people they don’t really need, I wouldn’t be nearly as worried about it.

        1. orchidsandtea*

          In our case, he ended up training his wife to do my job because the business needed to cut costs. They were gentle about the layoff (which is what it essentially became) in that they gave me a month’s notice before switching me to half-time, then two months at half-time before switching me to commission-only / no base pay. I ended up finding something during the first month of half-time, but it was stressful.

          1. Anon13*

            It sounds like he used your pending departure as a good way to cut costs long term – this is actually another worry of mine, as well. I am responsible for a variety of things – about half of them are not complex in the least; you could probably find someone to do them for about half of what I make. For the other half or so, you’d need to pay someone what I make or a little more. I kind of fear if I let him know I’m leaving, he’ll simple hire two part time people to replace me, one at half of my rate, and one at slightly more, which will save him money in the long run. (I’m not explaining this well, but, if, for example, I made $100,00/year, I think he could hire one person to work half of my hours and make $25,000/year and another to work the other half and make $60,000/year. I’m salary, but the person making $25,000/year would be making half of what would be my hourly rate if you broke it down, and the one making $60,000 a year would be making a little more than my “hourly rate.”) Anyway, I’m rambling and this is at least half for my own benefit – typing things out helps me think them through. Thanks for your input!

      2. Karen K*

        My experience as well. Good boss, good working conditions, but I needed benefits and more money, which he did not offer. I ended up being replaced before I found another job, and had to temp for a few months. Not horrible, but I would have rather not. Looking back on it, I shouldn’t have told him I wanted to find another job.

        1. Anon13*

          Yep, the (lack of)benefits, the money (somewhat, more the opportunity to make more money in the future), and the commute are the three biggest reasons I’m looking for something new – all things that can’t be changed. I would really hate to be stuck temping, as well. Thanks for your input!

    3. bopper*

      Don’t do it.
      The risks are too high for you. You could get pushed out faster than intended, you could be taken off good projects, and if in fact you can’t find a job then you are stuck.
      Their finances and lack of back up are their problem.

      You could try to negotiate with the new company for a later start date to give them more transition time.

      1. Anon13*

        You’re right. There’s no risk of me being taken off good projects unless they hire someone to replace me, in which case I was would be pushed out. There’s no one in my role or even a role remotely like it at the company. However, you are completely correct in that there’s probably too great a risk I will pushed out early or not find anything else (or feel like I have to jump at the first thing I find).

    4. Emmie*

      It sounds like you’re not sure how your bosses will react to the news. I would focus on memorializing your job processes, and creating step-by-step process documents in silence. It’s really the kindest thing you can do for your employer, and it will help then with the transition. If it doesn’t raise too many flags, you can talk to your managers about training a back up for your most critical project under the guise of “if I got hit by a bus tomorrow, no one would know how to do critical task [ie payroll].”

      1. Anon13*

        Luckily, we actually have a procedures manual that already has everything pretty explicitly spelled out, but you’re right, maybe I will try to teach someone in person how to do some things that only I know how to do. I don’t really have multiple bosses or managers – there’s just the owner/the one boss, then everyone else is kind of on an equal playing field – I suppose the people who have been here the longest have a sort of informal seniority, but, with the exception of the owner kind of managing everyone and me managing a few part time employees, no one really manages or supervises anyone else’s work.

        What might, oddly, make it easier to train someone else is that said owner travels pretty frequently and gives us a lot of freedom to determine our own daily tasks, as long as all of the work gets done, so I could easily train someone (even one of the part time people) in how to do a lot of things without him ever noticing.

        1. Emmie*

          That’s wonderful! It’s always a good idea to have a back up – even when you’re not job searching!

          1. Anon13*

            Yeah, there are some unchangeable things about this job that I don’t like (the commute, the lack of opportunities for advancement beyond what I’ve already achieved, the high amount of individual work (I’ll go all day without collaborating with a co-worker), the lack of benefits – you get the idea), but, despite the fact that it’s the wrong fit, it’s actually a pretty well-run business, especially considering some of the horror stories I’ve heard about small businesses here and elsewhere. I think I’ll have more trouble finding something new than they will replacing me.

            1. Emmie*

              Really good luck to you. You sound like a thoughtful employee, and another company will be lucky to have you!

    5. AMT27*

      I did this at a prior job – I had a great boss and my spouse and I were planning to move out of state once our house sold, so I wasn’t waiting for a new job offer (I was pregnant at the time and planned to not job search until after the move and baby). He was great and after a month or two they hired my replacement and I trained her…. I left within a month of her start date. They didn’t ask me to leave, but they were paying both of us to do one job, so I was basically doing nothing all day and I felt guilty. My house was still unsold, but I was seven months pregnant and needed to move regardless (I didnt want to be moving/traveling while too far along as I had complications that the doctors thought would likely lead to preterm birth). So I left before I was ready, and while I wasn’t exactly pushed out I would have stayed at least a few weeks longer if it had been my own choice. (This was partly due to trying to sell a house in 2008 – not a great idea! Nothing went as planned regarding my timeline).

      So, it can go perfectly well and still be less than ideal…

      1. Anon13*

        Yeah, I’m guessing my boss wouldn’t be upset (well, I think he’d be upset about losing a good employee, but he wouldn’t be upset with me) and wouldn’t ask me to leave immediately or anything, but I think he would look to hire someone right away – it takes us a long time to hire, so that would take about 8 weeks, then he would probably only want 2 weeks of overlap. I don’t think he’d be a jerk about it or anything, but I’m guessing I would be out of a job in about 10 weeks, maybe 12. Of course, it’s not outside of the realm of possibility that I could find something new in 12 weeks, but it’s certainly far from guaranteed.

    6. Weekday Warrior*

      It’s helpful to put yourself in your boss’s shoes here. And if you aren’t a manager at work, think about a similar scenario in your personal life. Such as: your hairdresser says “I’m thinking of closing up shop but I don’t know when”, your babysitter says “I’m thinking about getting out of this line but I don’t know when”, your SO says “I’m thinking of leaving this relationship but I don’t know when.” You’d start making plans to replace all of these ASAP, no? You need to count on people to be there – or to give a clear end date so you can make concrete plans.

      1. Anon13*

        I do manage a few part-time people and have managed full-time people in the past. I have actually been looking at it quite a bit from his point of view. And, honestly? I would always prefer a person let me know far in advance, even if I can’t necessarily make concrete plans, but that may be unique to me. I would rather be able to think things through and lay the groundwork than be surprised and have to scramble. And, when people I’ve managed have let me know that they’re job searching, I haven’t pushed them out, but I have, for example, contacted our outside HR consultant so she can know we’ll be needing her, and prepared the job description, etc. Perhaps it’s different because I’ve only ever been a manager, and never a business owner.

        Also complicating this is the fact that he has asked me before to let him know if I’m ever thinking about looking for something.

    7. Sunflower*

      Don’t do it. My last job search took 2.5 years and I would have never predicted it would take that long

      1. Anon13*

        Yeah, I’m definitely worried about this. It took me four months total, with about 2.5 months of aggressive searching, to find this job. And, at that point, I wasn’t working (I had moved to a different state and was helping an ill family member) and was worried about not finding anything else, so I took something that was less than a great fit. It wound up working out OK – I’ve been here 2.5 years and I’m not miserable or anything, but the commute is long and I greatly prefer to work in a larger office and more directly with others (a lot of our work is individual). I worry about taking something that’s not a great fit again. And, though 2.5 years isn’t that short a stint, I’d prefer to keep the less-than-five-year jobs on my resume to a minimum. (I was at my last place of employment, my first job out of college, for 6.5 years, with three different jobs during that time, so I’m fine there.)

    8. Spooky*

      Add me to the “don’t do it.” There are just too many ways that it can go wrong for you. However, one thing I did at a previous position was make a “guide” for how to job. Basically for a few weeks before I left, I took note of every kind of activity I did, and then I took a few minutes and typed up step-by-step directions for each of them. By the end I had a maybe 10-page word doc of instructions for the next person. It won’t help the company hire someone any faster, but it can (maybe) cut down on training time, and your replacement will have somewhere to turn for reference if there’s no overlap for you to train them.

      1. Anon13*

        Thanks for your input! We actually have a procedures manual that we are constantly updating, so a lot of that is done, but I will definitely think about making a list of my day-to-day duties (for lack of better phrasing) – things so simple that they wouldn’t even require a written procedure, but that someone might not think about if they didn’t do them daily.

        1. AliceBD*

          I am working on this right now. I’m job searching (which my boss knows, for a variety of reasons, but no one else at work does) and I’m making sure that all of the procedures have EVERYTHING documented in them, and writing down all the things that need to be done regularly. There are a lot of things I do that are “when x goes on the website, send the link to q, r, and s” — no step-by-step instruction is needed, because they are fairly straightforward, but it needs to be written down that they should be done.

    9. Sherm*

      Yes, my boss and I had been through a lot together. He had boundary issues and saw me as a friend , and he had Big Plans for him and me (which I had agreed to, but they were not materializing, one reason why I was unhappy). I was afraid he would have felt blindsided if I secretly job-hunted.

      So one day I bit the bullet and very nervously told him I had my eye on the door. He took it very well and acknowledged he blew it by not following through with Big Plans. Relief! But what made things weird later was that it took 18 months for me to find my next job. I think a couple times he just assumed I had stopped looking, and he brought up Big Plans again, at which point I had to awkwardly tell him I was still planning to leave.

      I finally found something new, and he was gracious and took the whole team out to dinner to celebrate. But on my last day, where I expected an emotional goodbye, he was aloof, a little mean, and acted like I was just going to be away for a short while. We have pretty much fallen out of contact. Oh well. I love where I am now, so I suppose it worked out.

      1. Anon13*

        Ugh, this is another fear, I guess. It seems like it worked out almost as well as it possibly could have (since you weren’t pushed out and found another great place), but it still was far from ideal.

        My boss is a great person, but also has some of those same boundary issues, which I think is part of the problem. I know on an intellectual level that this is a business transactions, but my feelings tell me that blindsiding him would be the wrong thing to do.

        Thanks for your input!

    10. Bad Candidate*

      Yes and it did not work out well. I spent the next year unemployed. But this was also during the recession. Which we’ve recovered from, right?

      1. Anon13*

        Were you let go right away? I think my boss would keep me on for about 3 months (the time it would take us to hire and train someone), but I doubt much beyond that.

        1. Bad Candidate*

          No. My boss asked if I was looking and honest me said yes. She said “oh don’t worry about it, these things happen” and was all nice and said if I needed time off for interviews, it was no big deal. I’m not really sure what I expected, I suppose I should have known that wouldn’t go on forever. But maybe a month later she called me up and asked when my end date was. I hadn’t found anything yet, so I told her as much. She said she needed to know when I planned to leave. So I said let me think about it and get back to you. I knew she could be underhanded and sneaky, and if I gave her an end date she’d say I quit and I wouldn’t get unemployment. So I went back to her the next day and said I didn’t have an end date, and what did she have in mind. A couple of days later she named a date two weeks in the future. And that was that. She did fight unemployment too, said I was fired due to gross misconduct. I ended up winning though.

          1. Anon13*

            Ugh. That stinks. It sounds like you’ve found something since – I hope it’s working out well!

    11. KAC*

      I was in a similar situation and chose to inform my manager of my interest in moving on. Prior to this, we were open and realistic with each other that either she or I (or both) would likely leave the organization some day, so I felt very safe informing her. I was so proud of myself for having that conversation, being willing to be vulnerable, and for having that relationship with my manager. My manager and hers (a VP) agreed that the organization would give me the time to find a job that was the right fit for me as long as I’d train my replacement, who was promoted internally.

      Unfortunately, about 45 days after I informed my manager and about 30 days after I started training my replacement, the VP informed my manager that the organization could not afford to have both me and my replacement in the role so the company would need to “reevaluate my employment” if I didn’t have a job within 4 weeks. She said she thought I’d have been snatched up already because I was such top talent, but really she just hadn’t looked at her budget or gotten budget approval before agreeing to keep me on indefinitely. I had my manager’s support – she and I both pushed back and pointed out but with minimal impact.

      Moral of the story: Protect yourself and your own livelihood. No matter how safe the situation seems, the stress I went through just isn’t worth it.

      1. Anon13*

        Thanks for your input. I am not going to say anything, but if/when I find a new job, I am going to try to negotiate a later starting date – hopefully I can find somewhere that will let me start 3-4 weeks after I’m hired, which I don’t think is too far outside of the norm, but I think would really help my boss tremendously.

    12. TootsNYC*

      Don’t ever put your employer’s needs above your own. They shouldn’t need more than 2 weeks.

      Here’s what you can do to be a good person to them when you leave:

      • Use this lead time to create as much documentation as possible.
      • Use this lead time to keep your own eye out for someone who might be good as a replacement. (a smart boss is almost always doing this in the back of their mind)
      • Use this lead to create (in private) a job description that you think matches what you do and is fair, and also to create (if practicable) tests to give the new person. Really this is their job, but if you give them a head-start on it, it’ll cut some time for them.
      • Give as long a notice as you can–but no more than a month.

      Seriously, it’s just so ineffective for EVERYone to have a long lame-duck period.
      And you risk shooting yourself in the foot as well (and then, well, you’ll BE a lame duck).

    13. DEJ*

      I had a coworker who did this. When he had his first job interview, some of us who had been there longer encouraged him to tell the boss – she has always been the type who if she can help you find something that you can’t get here, she is all for it and wants to help you any way she can. She also would have been upset if she found out that you were job searching without telling her because she would have wanted to help you.

      It ended up taking him about three years to find a job and he never got pushed out. However, I think that it stressed him out that the boss did ask a lot of ‘when are you leaving’ and ‘make sure you keep me updated’ questions, and he did, but she would get stressed out if he had a final interview somewhere thinking ‘what is our next move as an office.’

      We also had a second situation where a coworker wanted to get out of the business, and the boss did negotiate a situation where we hired someone take over his job and assigned him to another role and they determined a termination date together.

      So I have seen it work, but can’t deny it wasn’t without stress.

    14. Gaara*

      What can they possibly do with this information? They can’t search to hire an indefinite period in the future that could be two months or six or ten. If they find someone great, why wouldn’t they hire them, since you’re leaving?

      Meanwhile, they should always (already!) have in place practices that would allow them to transition should they lose an employee.

      1. New Window*

        That is such, such, such a good way to put it–“How would this help my company by knowing it?” I’m pocketing that point for later.

        In reality, anyone’s tenure in any job is uncertain, but it’s easy enough to assume and act like that’s not the case. Telling people you’re aiming to leave reveals that this assumption is just that, and it creats an uncertainty that the job-seeking employee can’t resolve on their own (since they have to wait for an offer to be given to them), and an uncertainty that the employer either is stuck with for an uncertain amount of time, or an uncertainty that they resolve by hiring a new person and laying off the current-but-soon-to-be-former employee.

  16. Tuckerman*

    Does anyone have any tips for interviewing for a hospital (non-clinical) job? Is there anything you wish you had known, or was unexpected?

    1. JustaTech*

      Not really (I’ve only done one), but I’d love to see what other have to say.
      Oh, make sure that you use the provided hand sanitizer, and that people see you use it.

    2. AshK434*

      I’ve held a few non-clinical jobs in hospitals before and I don’t think the interviewing process was any different then jobs in other settings (though I’ve only ever worked in hospitals or higher ed).

      1. AshK434*

        Oh! I just thought of something! In all of the hospital jobs I’ve had, I had to get medical clearance before being offered the job. This involved making an appointment with the hospital’s occupational health office and reviewing vaccination history and getting a TB test. This part goes a lot faster if you have your vaccination records with you.

      2. Tuckerman*

        I’m transitioning from higher ed to healthcare. Glad to hear there’s nothing too different.

    3. rubyrose*

      I’ve worked IT in two different hospitals.

      What struck me in both places after I was on the job for a while was that they seemed to have a large number of long term employees (think people with 15, 20 years or more on the job). Those folks aren’t always open to doing thing differently.

      Also, the last one I was at insisted that everyone had a flu shot. This was partly prompted by state law. There were a couple of ways to opt out, involving declaring either a medical or philosophical issue. Both types were actively challenged. Working in an office building three blocks away from the hospital where patients never appeared was not a good enough reason to refuse the shot.

      1. TL -*

        Yeah hospitals have this thing about transmitting diseases to immunocompromised patients. Be prepared to get flu shots, share your vaccine records, and there may be more enforced sick days (they may ask you to not come in with certain diseases or with a fever/cough, ect…)

        Even if you don’t interact with patients, you probably interact with someone who does.

        I’ve worked in two world class hospitals and both were very serious about culture but how much to emphasize that depends on where you’re at.

    4. SaraV*

      Ask about how PTO works. Our PTO was in one large bucket, including federal holidays. So let’s say you start work the week before Thanksgiving (like me), and you didn’t accrue enough to cover Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Years. I didn’t get paid for Thanksgiving or New Years. Now, I was going from temp to FTE at the same place, and received a nice pay bump, so those two days weren’t the biggest deal to me. Plus, I think my first year I accrued 6.x hours every two weeks, which to me wasn’t bad.

      We also had to have physicals, provide immunization records, and get the flu shot every year…even though our office building was 5 miles from the nearest hospital we served. Just because we might…MIGHT…have to be inside a building that provided direct patient care.

      PS – They would bring nurses into our office during work hours to administer the flu shot for free.

    5. periwinkle*

      I’ve worked in HR at a large hospital. The work itself was nothing unusual. As for the setting:

      1. You may be required to get a flu shot even if you don’t work in patient care.
      2. Your annual mandatory training will cover things like HIPAA and biowaste hazards even if you don’t work in patient care. You will also become exceptionally and maybe irrationally annoyed whenever someone gets the acronym wrong (HIPAA, not HIPPA) or assumes it applies to your boss talking openly about your illness; HIPAA has no provisions about jerky behavior.
      3. You may be surprised at the contrast between patient areas and employee areas. The hospital spent millions on patient care equipment, as well they should have, but our break room had broken equipment and a leaking roof.
      4. Whenever you’re actually at the hospital site, patients and their families always always ALWAYS come first (see #3). Be mindful of that when you’re interviewing and when you’re just walking through the hospital.

      1. Red Reader*

        1 and 2, yes, definitely. This year for the first time, people who didn’t work in patient facilities weren’t required to get the TB testing done, but everyone had to get the flu shot unless they had medical documentation as to why they couldn’t. (No religious or personal exemptions, it had to be a medical reason signed off by a doctor.)

      2. TL -*

        Yes. I’m stopped for directions every other month or so. I work in a major medical center, so sometimes it’s just telling them which floor to get off and sometimes it’s walking a few blocks. A lot of people there are scared and confused, so being kind and helpful to strangers is always a small but important part of the job.

    6. notfunny.*

      I don’t have specific tips but I would expect the reference checking and background checking to be more rigorous than in academia. You will also need occupational health clearance and be prepared to take a whole lot of training that may or may not apply to you and your role.

    7. Red*

      I wish I had known I was considered “essential personnel” and would have to come in no matter what the weather was like. Travel ban because of a blizzard? Leave early and show the police your work badge!

      Beyond that, it would have been nice to know more details of what the training was like, some details on the parking garage (for real, they could have mentioned it was $89/month, but then again – I should have asked), and definitely ask about the details of their PTO policy. Hospitals can be weird on that.

      Do expect that you will have to get a physical exam before your start date, including a test for tuberculosis, and that you will have to either get a flu shot every year or wear a mask constantly.

      1. Red*

        Oh, and I know you said you aren’t interviewing for a clinical position, but don’t think you get out of the TB test and flu shot that easily! You also get all the training on HIPAA, EMTALA, other laws and such, infection control, and safety that everyone else does! Just, you know, in case someone thinks you’re maybe a nurse or something. Who knows. It’s a thing. Expect it.

        Also, if patients aren’t there, the hospital don’t care. You can expect major capital investments in patient care areas and equipment and not much else anywhere patients won’t see. Our office floors do not look nice at all, but the thing about working in healthcare is, you’re “brainwashed” into not caring, because the patients really do come first. You will end up drinking the proverbial koolaid on that whether you ever meet a patient or not. It’s just how it goes. Just remember to be extra nice to patients and visitors if you see any when you’re there for the interview, because hospitals like caring and kind people, even for positions that aren’t involved with patients in any way.

        Good luck on your adventure. You may not expect it from my snarkiness here, but I love my hospital dearly. Most people that work in one do. That’s how you’ll end up knowing a ton of people that have been there for basically their whole career.

    8. Hospitals*

      Just make sure you look at the benefit information about holidays. Since hospitals are 24/7 facilities by nature, they tend to have the bare number of holidays (so likely less than you are used too). And they won’t close non clinical offices early the day before the holiday (unless you want to take vacation) because the patient care staff can’t leave early (& they want to try & maintain parity).

    9. LoFlo*

      I’ve had the same experiences regarding patient facing and employee areas. My office was furnished with used desks and chairs that were barely functional. The software we used was outdated, and I was constantly asked how to squeeze more efficiency out of the system. If you are working in a finance area, be prepared to encounter endowment funding, meaning that funds are restricted by the donors’ wishes. Large health care enterprises can also be splintered into different enities. I worked for a local hospital that has seven business units, some were for profit, and others not for profit.

  17. paul*

    I’m at work sick wondering if when/if I should ask to go home. I was fine this morning but am feeling crappier and crappier as the day wears on. I’m kind of hoping I get sick enough to physically throw up then it’ll solve my dilemma for me

    1. Leatherwings*

      Oh my goodness! Assuming you have the PTO/financial means to do it, go home! I hope you feel better.

    2. Susan*

      Unless your manager is a complete jerk, I really don’t think you need to wait until you’re actually vomiting. I think your coworkers would probably prefer if you leave before then! I bet if you say you have an upset stomach and need to go home, nobody will take issue with you leaving.

      1. paul*

        wwe get PTO but it’s based on monthly accrual with low rollover allowed from the previous year. Recent policy change and they’re probably going to revise it again this year because it’s franikly been a bit of a disaster.

    4. Amadeo*

      Oh gosh, you’re tougher than I am I guess. I can do all sorts of physical pain, but if the nausea doesn’t go away or becomes so bad I have to walk around with my mouth clamped shut I bolt for the door. If you have PTO, go home and escape into sleep! With a bucket by the bed of course.

    6. Emily*

      I understand not wanting to ask, even though I’m told it’s silly. I’m always afraid it will reflect badly on me, regardless of a positive work ethic. Hope you feel better!

    8. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Do it now, do you want to throw up on your commute home? If you have the time, just tell your boss you got sick to your stomach and better leave. I’m sure they’ll hold the door for you as you go out. Feel better.

      1. zora*

        Yes, this! It will suck even more if you get sick on the way home. Just get home earlier rather than later, you will feel better in your own bed!

      2. Parenthetically*

        Nothing worse than eyeing the shrubbery on the side of the road and praying you have time to pull over AND park AND get out AND make it to the bushes.

    9. Emac*

      I agree with the others in this thread. If you have PTO, and there’s nothing major that you need to be at work for, just go home. If I get a migraine in the middle of the day that I can’t dull with aspirin, I don’t generally *ask* if I can go home. I’m responsible for my time as long as I’m getting things done, so I’ll just let my supervisor or someone else on my team, if she’s not around, that I’m not feeling well and leaving.

    10. Anon for this*

      Just go. Yesterday my co-worker came in with a raging head cold (all the nasty symptoms except for a fever). After a one hour meeting with him, I had a sympathy headache after listening to the sniffling/blowing/puffy face/red eyes. You’re doing everyone a favor by leaving.

  18. rawr*

    I’d love your ideas on how you’ve kept in touch with beloved colleagues after they’ve left. My boss is retiring next week and I am really sad about it. Not only is she the best boss I’ve ever had, but she’s been a mentor since I was a college student 15 years ago. Due to the length of time we’ve known each other and some mutual interests, we’ve formed a friendship over the past few years in addition to having a solid working relationship. It’s not the the “hang out after hours during our free time,” kind, though, since that would’ve crossed a boundary. It’s more the “have lunch occasionally, but talk daily about our lives” kind. She knows my kids better than some of their own relatives do, for example, just because of our daily chats. How do you transition from that type of relationship to a friendship once work is no longer in the equation? One of my weaknesses as a friend is that I sometimes do a poor job of transitioning from an “interacting daily” relationships to something more long-distance, which this will be. (She’ll be living away from our home state for part of the year.)

    1. justsomeone*

      You could see if she’d be interested in quarterly lunch catch-ups? If so, you could put a recurring reminder to reach out ever 3months or so to schedule something. Lunch or coffee can be casual, but since you’ve already kind of established an occasional lunching kind of relationship, it could work.

    2. lfi*

      we text and send letters/cards. whenever she comes to town we get together for drinks and dinner and include our husbands. and there’s facebook. in a way it’s like any other friendship where we just have to make an effort. and, she is still my mentor, which is fantastic.

    4. Natalie*

      I’ve gotten the impression that I’m the odd person out among this community, but when I have colleagues I want to keep in touch with I friend them on Facebook. I just don’t check anything else regularly (except email, and I don’t have long email chats) and I address any privacy issues through filtering and hiding. Facebook allows me a lot of those low-stakes contacts without requiring a ton of effort.

    5. Yo Teach!*

      It can be kind of weird but I just did this. It helped a lot that a bunch of us have dogs, and we were already doing regular puppy playdates so those just organically continued. But the best thing was just inviting people I liked over for dinner regularly!

      1. hermit crab*

        Fourthing (?) the Facebook suggestion. My awesome manager got a new job and moved 2500 miles away, and pretty much the first thing I did when I got home after her last day in our office was send her a friend request. Facebook makes it easy for her to share when she’ll be back in town, so we can get coffee whenever that happens.

  19. ThatGirl*

    Minor rant time… we have a contractor who is competent enough, but just doesn’t seem to be a great fit with our team, and needs a lot of hand holding and seemingly obvious things spelled out…

    For instance he is posting files for my team to review and he’s SPELLING OUT the word “comma” because you can’t put actual commas in the excel file name.

    And I’m so afraid he’s going to be hired full time.

    1. Sadsack*

      Wow, maybe mention to him that using dashes would be better. An actual dash though, not the word dash! I would never have thought of spelling out the word!

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yes, he could easily use dashes or underscores (like_this) … but isn’t that common sense? Why does someone have to TELL him that? Blows my mind.

      2. Jadelyn*

        Dashes. Periods. Underscores. What even possesses someone to spell out a punctuation mark in a filename???

    2. Arjay*

      So like “Weekend schedule comma Saturday comma Sunday.xls”?

      That completely cracks me up AND would drive me totally batty.

    3. Gandalf the Nude*

      Is this specific to a version of Excel? I use commas in Excel file names all the time.

      2. ThatGirl*

        We use 2007, as we are woefully behind the times. (We’re also running Windows 7.)

        It doesn’t really matter, though, we don’t NEED the commas or anything – nobody would blink if the file name had spaces, no spaces, dashes, etc.

        1. Gandalf the Nude*

          Gotcha. It would have added an extra layer of WTF if commas weren’t even restricted.

        2. krysb*

          I think that’s only in the save function, though. you should be able to rename the file with commas in the name.

      3. Beaded Librarian*

        It think it might be a Mac vs PC issue. I use a Mac at home and use various file naming conventions there that PCs will NOT let me use.

  20. Not an Intern Anymore*

    Happy Friday, everyone!

    I’m finishing my second week at a new job, and I’m really enjoying it! Super flexible, work from home options, and the pay is not bad either. It’s my first full-time salaried position after graduating college (graduated in May).

    Anyhow, I’ve spent the time in between working in internships in busy and fairly competitive firms. At my current job, it seems to take me much less time than everyone else to compete my daily tasks. As in, I complete my day’s worth of tasks by noon. I know I’m completing the work sufficiently because I’ve had my work double-checked by colleagues (since I’m new). I’m sure that time goes on, I’ll have more on my plate. But I already manage my own accounts (flat management structure), so I do all the work for these accounts. And I keep asking my boss and coworkers to give me extra work, but they say there’s nothing for me to do besides my own account work.

    Do you guys have any tips on how to go above and beyond when you have extra time but no extra work? If this trend continues, when would it be appropriate to ask for my boss to give me another account?

    1. Leatherwings*

      I’d give it some time. You’re only in your second week! Even if you’re completing a full set of tasks in half the time of everyone else (which I’ve never seen out of a new person before, so it’s worth considering you don’t have a full workload yet) it might look a little out of touch if you’re constantly asking for more to do. As your knowledge of the accounts and work deepens, it’s possible more work will naturally come.

      1. Not an Intern Anymore*

        That’s what I’m hoping! I figure once I learn more about my clients I will be able to preempt their needs and complete additional tasks. I have been getting training help, but the office only has 4 employees so there isn’t anyone to share the workload with!

      2. SebbyGrrl*

        Is there all ready an SOP o procedure manual for the position?
        If not, start one or go through the existing and start adding/updating.
        This is a really effective way to ‘train’ yourself and look like a super star for taking initiative – but don’t tell anyone you are doing it-in a few months when someone asks you something “Oh, let’s look at my procedure manual for the answer to that.”
        I’ve also used the process to find tune and build my Word skills-Table of Contents, Appendices, footnotes, higher level formatting, etc.

    2. Amber Rose*

      I’d spend that time doing some reading. I’m sure that in only two weeks, you haven’t learned everything there is to know about your company. So i’d do some studying now, while you have the time, so you can use that knowledge in the future for stuff like raises and promotions or getting better projects or whatever. Now is the best time to look into anything you’re curious about.

    3. Jersey's Mom*

      Yep, agree with Amber Rose. The first few weeks is the learning curve. If the company has an intranet, written procedures, etc, read those. Purchase a book that’s obviously has to do with the industry you’re in, or about the computer programs you’re using — something that is very obviously related to the job, and read a chapter occasionally.

      In six months you’ll look back at this time period and wish that you still had “extra” time…..

    4. SebbyGrrl*

      See the person below that used documentation to get a 13% raise.
      If no one else in your area is good at this it can be a huge boon to your professional rep.
      Not everyone can think organizationally AND put it on paper – it’s really a fantastic skill to develop an especially to fill down time.

  21. Blue Anne*

    I’m starting to worry that my life is destroying my resume. My boyfriend – fiance, really – visited for the holidays and we’re hoping to get married and move me back to the UK at the end of this year. After which we’re hoping to start having kids within a year or two and I’ll stay home for a few years.

    I know there’s room for explanations when you have a job-hopper looking CV, and there are real reasons for every move I’ve made/am planning (mostly related to being royally screwed by my ex-husband and the UKBA), but this is what my employment history is probably going to look like by the end of 2018 if I left everything on it:

    -3 years
    -1 year, 4 months
    -1 month
    -3 months
    -14ish months
    -maybe a year?

    Urgh. If I were a techie like my friends this would be okay, but in accounting? I’m hoping to be self-employed when I go back to the workforce, and I know I’m thinking way ahead and life isn’t this predictable (jesus H christ did 2016 teach me that), but I was hoping I wouldn’t have to be self-employed due to being unemployable.

    1. orchidsandtea*

      OK, that looks bad, but this doesn’t look as bad:
      -3 years
      -1 year, 4 months
      -14ish months
      -a year

      And if there’s any way to make this work, this looks pretty okay:
      -3 years
      -1 year, 4 months
      -26ish months

    2. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      I would probably leave off the 1 and 3 month gigs. Are all of the ones you listed for unique companies? If for any reason you were doing temp work or it’s different positions at the same company, I would group those together as well. But I think leaving off the 1 and 3 month positions (assuming you won’t be using references from there) helps a lot.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Yep, they’re all for different companies, and even in different countries.

        My concern is that leaving off both off the short ones (I’m already leaving off the little one) leaves a 9 month gap. During that time I dealt with a divorce and unexpected international move before job searching, but… I’d actually done that within 4 months, and I hate to have more than double the actual gap, you know?

        1. zora*

          I think a gap for an international move/job hunting is going to look better than two super short gigs.

          But not that I know much ;o) It just seems more self-explanatory in a way that doesn’t put the blame on you.

          1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

            I agree. I think you can explain the gap really easily with the move. No one needs to know that it only took you 4 months to move. For what it’s worth (and I realize not everyone experiences this) I’ve never had an interviewer ask me about employment gaps so it might not even come up.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Agreed. Try not to let this get too big in your mind’s eye. In a few years it won’t matter as much, so basically you just need to put a bandaid on it for the time being. If you can think of it as a short term problem, that might help.

    3. Sophie Winston*

      I don’t think it look all that hopperish, when you factor in the international moves. You had a solid job in the UK, involuntarily returned to the US, worked some short time gigs while arranging to get back to the UK, and then start another solid job there. Who knows how long it will take the kids to come – you may end up with two+ years before you go out on maternity.

      Good luck!

    4. Caledonia*

      You know what, that doesn’t look bad when you take out the 1 & 3 months. Even if you had a large gap, you can explain with moving internationally. Can you say you were studying or something in that time?

      My last 5 years are: 4 months (current job), 8 months unemployed, 6 months, 13 months, 2.5 years (I’m in admin) and have only moved within Scotland.

      I think you’ll be ok :) especially as your current job will have a fairly decent length to it.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      I’ve never been asked about employment gaps either–I think most people assume you’re job-hunting during that time, unless it’s a gap of several years.

      Also, “life isn’t this predictable (jesus H christ did 2016 teach me that)” made me laugh. An interviewer asked me this week what my five-year plan was. I basically said, “Well we’ve all seen how quickly things can change, lately, so I don’t really have one except I’d like to pick up some new skills.” Who even still does those. Seriously.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Heh heh, go right ahead. :)

          It’s true–every time I try to make one, it blows up in my face. I’m practicing letting the universe handle it, though I did specify EXACTLY what I wanted. Plus, I didn’t want to tell them that my immediate plan is to get the h3ll out of here.

    6. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Well, would you be applying in the UK? I get a sense that it may not matter as much here, and you could always get a contract instead of a full time role. I had a giant almost year gap on mine which I explained (moved, immigration issues) and no one cared after that. Have another four month gap after the last gig which can be explained (ended contract, took some time out which was in reality waiting for HR to get their act in gear for this role). Anything to deal with immigration won’t be looked at poorly. Lord knows what the system could look like by the end of this year.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Yep, I’m currently in the job I plan to stay at for 14ish months, and then I’d be applying for another job once I got back to the UK. I’m actually kind of hesitant to mention the immigration issues once I get back through because all the Brits I talked to were so shocked I was having any trouble, much less being threatened and deported. It seems like people who aren’t immigrants don’t realize just how draconian UK immigration law is right now. I don’t want to seem all “woe is me” about it when a big portion of the population thinks I can just easily waltz in and get on the dole.

        1. Px*

          To be honest that’s probably why it makes sense to mention it. ‘Many people don’t realise but the immigration rules are quite tough so I needed to take some time to sort that out’; plus at least depending on where you are, there have been several high profile cases highlighting the draconian nature of UKBA so you might get more sympathy than you think.

    1. LadyKelvin*

      My husband has yet to get “official guidance” but since he works in a fed building he’ll at a minimum get to/have to work from home, which since he supports feds who get the day off, would mean checking emails on his phone once an hour or so. But he actually expects it to get treated as a snowday and get a free day off. Which would be awesome since we are gearing up for our big move and I leave 10 days later to start my new job without him.

    2. Jenbug*

      I cannot even imagine trying to get into DC proper that day. Between the people attending the inauguration and the people protesting, it is going to be a hot mess. I would take the day off unpaid before trying to navigate that. Good luck to any of you who do have to work! I made the mistake of going to the Cherry Blossom Festival on a Saturday shortly after I moved to the area. Never again.

      1. SC*

        Longtime lurker, first time commenting
        We just got word my office is closed (I work in DC) for Inauguration Day. Thank goodness!! I informed my supervisors just after the election that if we weren’t closed (it wasn’t on our official holiday list) that I would take a PTO Day, but there wasn’t a chance I’d trek into the district. Hoping that everyone else follows suit around here!

      2. zora*

        I made the mistake of trying to metro to the 4th of July fireworks on the Mall one year. Such a terrible idea.

    3. Leena Wants Cake*

      Yes, thank goodness. We get paid as normal anytime we are unable to work because the agency we work for is closed–whether that be federal holiday, snow day, or inauguration (working from home not an option for us). Love my contracting company.

    4. Inauguration Day*

      Interesting. I can use PTO for the day but I can’t come in and my job isn’t telework-friendly. The problem is, every time my agency closes (not the federal gov’t, but just an agency-closure or early dismissal), I’m given the same options: take it unpaid or take PTO. If I used PTO for every instance, I wouldn’t have any to use as, y’know, PTO. At the same time, I took the job in part to get paid consistently. And it sounds like my contracting agency will still be making money from the federal agency that day. Their usual fee, plus what they would’ve paid me. I’m considering pushing back because all the extra time here and there is adding up and I have bills to pay. I know it’s legal, but…

        1. Pseudo-Fed*

          I have no idea what we’re doing for the inauguration. My team lead says he’s asked the question of upper management, but has no answer yet. As Jenbug implied, I have ZERO intention of struggling into DC that day.

          As for snow days, I finally pried an answer out of the president of my contracting company: “You may work from an alternate location, such as .” Of course, if the roads are impassable to one, they will be impassable to the other. No, we don’t have an employee handbook of any kind. I suspect we never will.

  23. Amber Rose*

    What title would you give someone hired on a temporary basis to just “help out with stuff.”

    Usually I give people titles like Tech 1/2/3 or Tech Manager or whatever, since we give ourselves our own titles and what people wanna call themselves changes every time I order them new business cards. But I need a standard of sorts for filing and documentation purposes so I have an unofficial title system used just for that.

    Anyways, we’ve never had someone hired for “whatever” so i’m at a loss. I work at a teapot manufacturer, so we have manufacturing bays, a shipping bay and an office area and i’m not sure how much time this person will be spending in any of those.

    1. Gandalf the Nude*

      I’d just call them Teapot/Department Assistant. It covers just about everything they could be helping with.

    2. Jadelyn*

      [Blank] Clerk or Assistant, depending on what their actual tasks are. [Blank] Support can also work.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I took a job doing a job with a title, but my own position was temporary. So the solution was to call me a project manager. (yeah, interesting) So I was thinking along the lines of “project assistant”?

  24. Contemplating another career*

    Hello urban planners out there! As my username indicates, I have long thought about entering the field. How did you decide on that career path? What do you love the most and dislike the most about the profession? How in demand is the market for urban planners, especially in transportation planning?

    1. Blue*

      Hello. Urban Planner here. Working for a developer in a mid-sized city. I decided on this career path after getting an undergraduate degree in an unrelated field. I was always interested in city building type stuff and after getting coffee with a few planners working in the field I decided to get my masters in planning.

      I like: the research and policy oriented tasks. The problem solving nature of the job.
      Dislike: the antagonistic relationship between developers and the city.

      The market here is pretty good for planners. Lots of jobs at our larger municipality and the smaller surrounding ones. Transportation planning is a bit of a different kettle of fish. A lot of what you might think of as transportation planning (without knowing your background at all) is actually done by transportation/traffic engineers. They have the hard math/science background, and the professional designation, to use and analyse the traffic data. I do know a few transportation planners, but they are far outnumbered by engineers doing traffic work.

      Is there someone local to you, in the field, who you can talk to?

      1. Contemplating another career*

        Thanks for responding. I don’t intend on staying in this area, so I’m trying to get a broad perspective of the field. If you don’t mind me asking, what does a typical day or project look like for you?

        1. Blue*

          Generally, the stages of a project that I’m involved it would be: evaluating the potential of a bulk parcel of land (zoning, servicing, financial considerations) for purchase; higher-ups make a decision on what they want to do with the land; I tender out the project to a consultant (development engineers) based on what our submission requirements to the city are (generally let’s say we need a concept plan, traffic study, servicing schematic); I may write the application letter myself or if it’s a larger project it gets contracted out to someone else; then we go through public hearings; meetings with the city; going to council. The typical project takes 5+ years. I have yet to see any project through all the way from bulk land to finished project.

          I don’t know of any transportation planners who work for developers, unless they’re actually engineers. Any jobs I’ve heard of are in municipality/county/government department or with a university in research or as in an advocacy role (cycling, pedestrian safety, greet streets).

  25. AnoniBelle*

    Going anon for this.
    Very disappointed and uneasy about a decision by my employer this week.
    TL:DR jerk promoted to new management job after being really jerky to their new staff.
    Long version: senior teapot analyst (Fergus) who does good work but with a track record of sucking up to management while being a jerk to “peons” decided to get a manager position. Spent months threatening to leave and scaring the director into thinking the function would fall apart without Fergus.
    Fergus requested 360 degree feedback. Coworkers were concerned about being honest but were assured by management (including HR) there would be no repercussions.
    Fergus froze out honest coworkers for several weeks after receiving feedback.
    This week suddenly Fergus is promoted to the brand new Teapot Analysis Manager role. And two former coworkers now report to Fergus. Two of the most honest ones.
    Thankfully I don’t report to Fergus but sit really close to all and know the staff. I’ve heard several of them mention updating their resumes. If it comes up I’ll be referring them to this site for all its great advice.
    Just generally disappointed and concerned.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Wow…I feel bad for those coworkers. Sounds like HR/higher-ups failed here. I understand your feeling of concern…

    2. Chaordic One*

      It really sounds like HR and the higher ups made a bad a decision. It is so sad that the “kiss up, kick down” style of management seems to work so well.

    3. Is Genevieve pronounced Jen A Veev or Zsahn Vee Ayve*

      When this happens, I always kind of hope the people who got the raw deal leave for better jobs, and upper management is looking back wondering why no staff wish to continue working on under newamazing-but-not-really-because-he’s-actually-a-jerk manager

  26. Need a whack on the side of the head...*

    Sorta work, sorta not so delete if not appropriate.
    Laid off 15 months ago, I did find another job an hour away at 30% less pay; entry level type job in my industry (basically job I was doing 20 years ago). Finding myself sinking into the pit of despair from taking such a step back in my career. At the office 9 hours a day + some weekends (pre-empting my personal life) and with at least an hour commute each way, I find myself unmotivated to do my job and unable to job hunt as I’m too tired by the end of the day. Took a hit to my ego, self-image, and self-esteem by taking this job but I really needed something or risk losing the house.

    It’s a new year – how do I go about shaping up, getting excited about my job, motivated to get out of bed every morning, and interested in finding something new? I have no dreams, desires, goals, just blahs.

    Need to get over myself, and get on with my life, but don’t know how.

    1. ThatGirl*

      It sounds like you may be a little depressed, perhaps some short-term counseling is in order? If you have an EAP you may be able to get a few sessions free. Self-care is also important, make sure you are taking care of your body (exercise, sleep) and mind (friends, etc.)

      1. Need a whack on the side of the head...*

        massive depressed is more like it (yes, I’m on appropriate meds)
        no EAP, can’t afford counseling
        Having trouble motivating myself for self-care.
        Looking for ways to get my butt into gear!

        1. zora*

          Do you have any health insurance? I was able to talk to my Primary care doctor a few years ago, and she helped me not only with meds, but recommendations of counseling options, etc, she was really helpful in getting me started finding solutions.

        2. zora*

          Also there are some great free phone apps out there now that are helpful for setting small goals, starting new habits, some turn it into little games that get me motivated. I don’t know names off the top of my head, but google searches turned up great articles and lists of different apps and websites that help with depression and motivation stuff.

    2. Kimmy*

      I can so relate to this. I had to leave my job & move b/c of domestic violence and it took over a year to find something else (and it’s not great.) I’m finding that focusing on health is improving everything else – it’s a great domino effect. Don’t think about tackling all these areas of your life that need work simultaneously. Just focus on one or two and make exercise/eating well/sleeping one of your focuses. Get some kind of high-intensity exercise at least 30 minutes a day if you do nothing else. It will make an immediate difference and you can build on that.

    3. Emac*

      Ugh, I’m sorry. I can relate to this as well; I think I’m finally coming out of my can’t get myself motivated/excited phase finally (after about a year and a half or so).

      I think Kimmy’s idea to focus on your health for a time is good. Just feeling like you’re in control or on top of that part of your life can really help. For job searching, could you find someone else or a group of people who are also looking? It doesn’t have to be in the same field, or even close. My sister and I did that when we were both looking and going to a cafe or the library with someone else who was applying to jobs really helped me stay focused. A coworker has said she did something similar, too, and it really helped her.

    4. Lady Bug*

      I don’t have a lot of advice, but I’ve always had long commutes and can give you some ideas there. Try to make your commute “you” time. For me that is a fully loaded ipod that I can sing along to like a rock star in the car (not on public transportation). You can try music, audio books, podcasts, NPR, satellite radio shows. Something that you love and only get to do during your commute. If you are taking public transportation you can also read, watch movies, read AAM.

      Its only a small part of your day, but if its a “you” one it may help you get a little bit of motivation.

      1. Need a whack on the side of the head...*

        Thanks!
        Yes! I love having the time to listen to books on the commute (hearing The Nightingale right now).
        I’ve always lived within 10 miles of my place of employment so being 40 miles away is a bit of a readjustment to me. And I really don’t mind driving, it’s just that it sucks 2+ hours out of my day, ever day.
        Not like I’m doing anything else with that time but it makes it too difficult to find a second job (don’t want to be driving home at midnight from job 1 but can’t make it to a job close to home in time to start).

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I relate to this through my own experiences.

      You actually do have dreams, desires and goals. Your dream/desire/goal is to get to a better place in life. While this feels like baseline survival it’s still a dream/desire/goal and it’s important not to skate by that fact.

      Here’s the question: How badly do you want to get out of this spot? If you are like I was, there are days where you feel shut down. Then there are days where you kick yourself because you know the way out is to work on things. The trick is to keep yourself on an even keel so that most days you are doing something to get to a better place. Forgive yourself if you have days where you put in 15 minutes worth of effort or maybe no effort. And let that scare you into putting a better effort in on a different day.

      I suggest making written weekly lists of things that are reasonable/doable to help yourself get to a better place. Notice I am not saying job hunt. Your activity today could be to go for a walk. Or it could be to reconnect with an old friend who works in your field. This is eating an elephant one bite at a time. You don’t solve the problem in one day/week/month. But you solve the problem by doing something as often as possible to repossession yourself so that next month/next year might be better. Congratulate yourself every time you do something, no matter how small.

      Here’s a thought. Instead of whacking yourself on the head, why not decide that you will read AAM on a regular basis until you find that new job. The idea being that you have instant access to positive people taking proactive steps in their lives. Everyone is on a different level so it’s an interesting read, it’s not grueling/punishing. While counseling and meds maybe helpful they are not a comprehensive solution because they do not provide action plans. You ran out of action plans so this was like a punch to the gut. Take small steps but take the small steps frequently and read what others are thinking and doing.

  27. Emily*

    Just wanted to share some exciting news. I am currently at my first post-college job, and quite frankly was terrified of asking for a raise, prior to reading Alison’s thoughts and advice on the topic. A few weeks ago, I requested to meet with my supervisor, and her boss regarding my role with the company. I have been at my current job for a little over a year, and have gotten nothing but great feedback on my work. I suspected I was being underpaid based on all the additional responsibilities I had taken on, and confirmed that this was true after doing extensive research on similar positions. Prior to requesting a meeting, I compiled a binder consisting of training documents I had created for coworkers, emails from customers and colleagues praising my work, and a document outlining all the additional responsibilities I had taken on in my time with the company. I asked for a 13% raise, which to some may seem out of touch in comparison to “normal” raises, but I felt like it was justified. I went into my meeting prepared and confident. My supervisor and boss listened attentively to everything I had to say, and told me they would get back with me soon. A week later, my boss called me into his office and informed me that they were giving me the 13% raise I had asked for! Super great way to start the New Year!

    2. Emac*

      Congratulations! It’s good to hear stories of good workplaces with reasonable managers, too (although the bad ones are entertaining).

    4. SL #2*

      Congrats! Something similar happened to me this summer (paid slightly below market rate, took on extra work in a very small company, boss gave me massive raise and promotion). I’m also in my first “real” job post-college. It’s always a good feeling to know that your higher-ups value your work and contributions.

    6. Drew*

      Brava! Way to advocate for yourself AND make sure your boss is aware of your value to your company!

  28. NorCal*

    So I’m a few months into a job I love and am relocating to the area next week – currently doing a 1.5-1.75hr commute each way every day. I’m in northern CA and we are about to get a mega storm this weekend. I need to be in the office tomorrow and all next week, but I’m going to come in late and leave early each day there’s flooding so I’m not navigating the roads in the dark. I already told my boss that is How It Must Be and she hasn’t voiced any objection. Husband is all raised eyebrows about it though and calling me a princess, but I think he can be reckless (we make the same commute). So, reality check – am I overreacting? I plan on working from home in the early AM/late PM as needed to make sure I’m putting in enough hours, and I’d honestly just WFH the whole time but I need to be in the area to coordinate my move next week. And of course, it’s our busy time at work so I’m certainly not making myself look very good here.

    1. bopper*

      That all sounds very reasonable to me. You want to ensure safety, but are still getting your job done. You have informed your boss of your plan.
      Also I assume you will check each day if that is necessary or not.

    2. Taryn Skinner*

      Is your husband in a different field from you? This would be so normal in my office that even the idea of this being ‘princess’ behavior is surprising to me.

      As for making sure you look ok at work, I would make sure to send a few high-visibility emails in the early morning/late evening while you work to reassure people you’re working just as hard as everyone else.

    3. Jadelyn*

      We’ve got flood warnings, ffs – how often does that happen around here? If we regularly got that level of rain and were prepared for it, it might be a different story, but these are unusual conditions that present unusual dangers. If I had to work, you’re damn right it wouldn’t be during times when I’d be driving in the dark, that’s just asking for problems. Your husband is being a jerk, just ignore him.

    4. WitchyAdmin*

      I am also in northern California, very north, and I don’t think you are over reacting at all. That is a long commute for the weather that is expected and it is better to take precaution. Stay safe!

      1. SebbyGrrl*

        Me too,
        Sonoma County. It’s much different than San Francisco and South.
        We have a lot more areas that flood – where you wouldn’t expect it – so YES you are making the right decision.
        Not a princess – a prudent worker who doesn’t want to cost overall productivity for being in the right chair at 8 a.m.

    5. Jersey's Mom*

      No, not an overreaction. This is a very short term modification to job hours due to extreme weather which your boss has OKed. Not an issue for work, end of story. As for husband, well, my husband will drive in very wintery/icy weather, when I refuse to. But, he can set up a winch and has more upper body strength to try to fix the situation if the truck goes into a snowbank/ditch. The first time I refused to drive in heavy snow and my hubby gave me some (kidding around) flak, I informed him that he should be happy — because if I drove and something happened, guess who I was going to call. And that as soon as he arrived, I was going to hop into his (warm) truck and let him take care of the problem. Problem solved!

    6. SF Transplant*

      Not being a princess at all! Our building is near a flood-prone area so I already have my staff on alert for Monday morning issues. And I’m going to the grocery store tonight so I can just sit on the couch watching Netflix instead of getting out in the storm.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      I think you’re fine. This appears to be very unusual weather for you, so you’re wise to take precautions. And it’s not like you’re just taking PTO–you’re going to be working.

    8. NorCal*

      Thank you all! To be fair, I do have some anxiety and have overreacted about other perceived dangers in the past. But I think, and am glad you all agree, that I’m not overreacting here. Husband and I are in the same field but he has the upper body strength and the boy scout knowledge that I lack. We’ll be safe this weekend and Monday and hopefully it won’t be as bad as currently predicted.

    9. AliceBD*

      Definitely normal! I left at 5pm today and was one of the last to leave the office as we’re getting a bunch of rain that will turn to snow/sleet/etc. later tonight. I live closer than most coworkers and I had already gotten food so I didn’t need a big grocery run, but it was odd to be leaving on time but go out into a nearly-empty parking lot. We’re also planning to work from home on Monday and maybe Tuesday, depending on how icy the roads are.

    10. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      You’re being totally normal, and it’s not right/kind for your husband to make you feel like you’re being entitled/prissy/demanding (I assume that’s what he means by calling you “princess”).

      There’s flash flood warnings throughout the Bay Area, and there’s straight up (river) flood warnings further north in my neck of the woods. I drove this weekend because I had to, and it was a hydroplaning disaster waiting to happen. And then on top of the weather, you’ve got all the people who don’t know how to drive like reasonable humans in the rain (I’m looking at you, tailgating Escalade and lady driving 40 mph on the freeway in the left-most lane of a 5-lane freeway). When paired with the gale-force winds we had this weekend, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to move your work schedule temporarily to accommodate for your safety.

  29. SickTooMuch*

    I’m in my first real office job out of college and have been working here for almost 5 months. The week before Christmas I took a sick day on a Tuesday because I had a searing headache, aches, chills, sniffles, etc., starting from about 1pm the day before. I then took the Friday and Tuesday off around Christmas (Monday was a holiday), worked the next three days, then got this past Monday off for New Years.

    Yesterday, I had to leave work early with all of the same symptoms and a sore throat/not being able to concentrate for more than 5 minutes at a time. I live at home, and both my sister and my dad also took off sick yesterday but are back today. I took today off because I only got 4 hours of sleep because of a splitting headache that kept me up (which has never happened to me before). But now I’ve been awake since my alarm went off feeling guilty for taking a sick day on a Friday when I’ve had so much time off. I don’t even feel that sick anymore either and probably could have made it through the day.

    How do I not feel guilty about taking this sick time off? My boss seems ok with it/he really doesn’t want to get sick – but I can’t help but feel guilty. Do you feel guilty when you take time off? Is it just because I’m new to work life?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      It’s part of your benefits package to be able to take sick leave. Take it. Do you feel guilty about spending your paycheck?

    2. ThatGirl*

      Part of it is probably being new to work life – think of it this way, if you try to work sick you will likely not do very good work, you may prolong your own illness and you may infect others.

      It is far better to take a day or two off so you can be at your best when you are at work.

    3. Teapot librarian*

      I feel guilty when I take time off. I shouldn’t.
      One of my employees was sick all this week. He came to work today and maybe shouldn’t have. As his manager, I told him this morning that he should not push himself to work a full 8 hours. He has a long drive home, and I’d rather him work a half day today and make it home safely than push himself to work the full day and then get in a collision on his drive home.
      Your boss is okay with you staying home when you’re sick: believe him that it’s okay.

      And feel better soon!

    4. R.*

      It’s absolutely because you’re new. I felt that way at first, too, in my first job. Recently I had an intern who did the same thing…she came in with the flu and when I told her to go home, she said, “Really? Are you sure?” and seemed guilty. It actually looked a little weird/unprofessional, but then I remembered feeling the same way at her age. Take your PTO, that’s what it’s there for! And your coworkers don’t want to get sick.

      1. Jadelyn*

        I had the same issue. Part of it was that I was a temp and didn’t get PTO, but early on at this job I was having awful muscle spasms in my back and I forced myself to come to work and sit at my desk all day anyway until my manager was like “you had to go to urgent care after work yesterday for prescription pain meds and muscle relaxers, I will fake your timecard so you get paid for today, go home!”

        I also feel like this is a thing Millennials have trouble with more than previous generations maybe did, specifically *because* so many members of older generations have taken to very loudly and publicly shitting all over us as “lazy” and “entitled” in these last few years. So we end up feeling like we have to prove them wrong.

        Of course, then you end up with thinkpieces about how “Millennials don’t use their vacation time, they’re creating a culture of overwork and destroying work-life balance!” Wait…so we’re lazy and entitled, right up until we make it very clear that we’re not lazy by throwing ourselves into our work, at which point we’re working too hard. Make up your minds!

        /rant

        1. anon and on and on...*

          I was thinking about this the other day when I called off sick and felt a little bad about it. I told myself it’s not grade school where you get a certificate for perfect attendance, and then wondered if that’s where it stems from, leading to people not taking the sick time they should.

    5. Newish Reader*

      For some managers/supervisors, it can be annoying to have employees continually out sick because of the impact on the workplace or workload. But employees do get sick and should be able to stay home when they are – both for themselves to get better and to not share the illness with coworkers. Your coworkers and managers will get to know you over time and see that this was unusual. If the majority of the year you have good attendance at work, that is what will stand out – not an occasional period with time off.

    6. Christy*

      Here’s the thing–your boss doesn’t want you in the office when you’re not at 100% or close to 100%. He doesn’t want you to be doing sub-par work. He’d rather you use the sick leave so that when you’re back, you’re doing good work.

      I bet it’s at least partly because you’re new to work life.

  30. Fenchurch*

    Things are finally happening here, getting to work on a short-term project away from the call center for the next few months. It’s definitely a challenge, helping to train and supervise a group of 35 contractors! My former manager specifically requested and lobbied for me to fill this position so I’m just over the moon to get the opportunity!

    I am so glad I have this site as a place to find advice regarding my new supervisory role!

  31. Sled dog mama*

    Today is the end of my first week at new job and holy cow, I knew old job was disfunctional but I didn’t realize how disfunctional until I got here. I’ve actually gone home excited each day and wake up excited to come back in. I definitely would not be here right now without AAM and all the readers here. THANKS EVERYONE!!!!!!!!

    2. JacqOfAllTrades*

      Isn’t that an awesome feeling? I left a very toxic workplace last year and am in a fantastic dream job right now. I *still* have moments where something happens here and I’m thinking, “Oh. That’s right. That’s how NORMAL workplaces operate. Squeeeee!”

    3. Sled dog mama*

      Oh and I should have said my 3 year old no longer says “mommy no go work” or clings to me and cries when I leave for work.

    4. Emily*

      That’s the best feeling! I left a horribly toxic job a year and a half ago, and still appreciate my new job so, so much because of how much better it is. A complete 360! Glad you are loving the new job.

    5. Blackout*

      I had a similar experience. I’ve been at my new job for a year and a half, and I’m still loving it! Congratulations!

    7. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Congratulations!!! I remember the toxic work chronicles, and I am so happy that you’re happy (and that the improved workplace dynamic is spilling over at home in a good way). Hooray!

  32. Teapot librarian*

    Best part of the week! I need some help making a decision. My office is responsible for maintaining a library of teapot making. Over the last few decades, this library has grown to include a lot about tea, much less about teapot making, which itself causes me no end of frustration. Now, my predecessor taught a course in hot-drink-vessel design at the local college. His students’ final project was to choose an existing hot drink vessel (that is, a specific teapot, coffeepot, mug, …) and report on all aspects of its design. And then…my predecessor kept the reports with the intent of adding them to the library of teapot making.

    I think this is a terrible idea for many reasons. We don’t have space, the work isn’t high quality, as far as I know we don’t have the students’ permission, most of them are not in line with the intended subject matter of our collection, and so forth. However, as always, there are office politics at play. The decision to put the projects in the library was made my predecessor (now deceased) and one of my employees, who was a trusted advisor to my predecessor. That employee and I have a rockier relationship, which I am trying desperately to improve (while also trying very hard to overcome my aversion to difficult conversations). Also, it isn’t clear whether we have the authority to get rid of the projects.

    This is an issue now because the projects are taking up a tremendous amount of space in our supply room, which is so full that it is literally a fire code violation. So I’d like to get rid of them. At the same time, I’m nervous about doing so.

    I’m hoping that some of you very wise AAM readers and commenters can help me figure out 1. what I need to do/think about before tossing the projects (in addition to talking with the employee I mention above!), and 2. what shape that conversation should take. Is it too adversarial to start with “I think we should not put these projects in the library, but get rid of them, and here’s why?” Is there a better way to approach the conversation? (Technically, the conversation started over email when I asked him the other day what the intent of our having the projects was. He responded that they were intended for the library.)

    For any librarians in the commentariat, we don’t have a collections policy beyond what is in the law establishing our office. I am well aware that having a collections policy in place before difficult situations arise is imperative to dealing with difficult situations.

    Thanks for helping me think through this!

    1. SophieChotek*

      Is there any possibility of digitalizing them — that way of this other employee really wants to keep the you can keep them, but free up the space?

      Are these needed as references/guides to current students? If so, could you keep a few of the really good and really bad ones? in college my profs often saved some really good/really bad examples for the type of assignment that would not change/was given every year.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        I hadn’t thought about digitizing. In this case, it’s probably not worth it–these are binders that include things like sections of cut and paste from the newspaper, though they do also have original work. But in general…why didn’t I think of that? :-)

        And no, they’re not needed for current students. I don’t know if the course even exists anymore, and if it does, no one outside my office knows we have them. (Heck I didn’t know that we have as many as we have until I started digging around our supply room, and I’m in charge here.) Also, I don’t want to spend the time looking at all of them to figure out which are good and which are bad, so it’s a good thing they aren’t needed!

    2. GigglyPuff*

      Yeah the lack of a collections policy is to bad that would’ve helped a lot. Basically I think you need to come up with a really well written document on why you need to weed these items. While there isn’t a formal collections policy, you should base the weeding on the informal policies, trends, and researcher requests you get. You should also point out that there’s no clear donation form and that the papers don’t actually belong to you guys. Also I mean, how old are these things? Is this a topic that is still relevant to the library’s subject, or is it all just old news, which would support weeding it?

      You say you don’t know if you have the authority to get rid of the projects, I think that’s where you need to start. And also, does that mean you never get rid of anything?

      Plus I would totally take this is a starting point to buckling down and start having written policies. They’re awesome, and my division loves them and uses them when conflicts come up with other divisions just wanting to do their own thing instead of following standards.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        I’d like to add since others are suggesting make digital surrogates. I work specifically in digital and that can develop into a whole new host of issues, especially for a place that doesn’t have a formal collections policy, most likely there isn’t a digital policy. (Unless I’m completely wrong, and you happen to also have digital items and have a system set-up.)

        If you go the digital route, you need to keep them to digital standards which means preservation copies, access copies, short-term and long-term planning on how they will be stored, format, etc. I mean sure, you could scan them, turn them into PDFs and leave them just sitting on a computer (but please don’t), but they eventually just become someone else’s problem who will have to do their own research into what they are and why they are there.

        Personally I think they either need to be weeded, and asking if the college department wants them back, sounds like a good idea, or just cataloged and added to the library. Then start on that collections policy and down the road, if there’s been no usage you’ll have a formal policy to back up getting rid of them.

      2. Teapot librarian*

        We’re a teapot archive with this little library component, so in general no, we don’t get rid of things. Plus, some of us definitely have some hoarder tendencies. (I include myself in that group, which might be part of why I haven’t just pulled the trigger on dumping them.)

        I have had “write a collections policy” on my to-do list for the past N months. I started my job N+1 months ago. Somehow, it just hasn’t happened. (Maybe I spend too much time reading AAM?) You’re right; I need to buckle down and get it done.

        (As a side note, we have a 20+ box set of donated books that also don’t have a deed of gift. I don’t know if the donor is even alive anymore, or who his next of kin is if he isn’t, or if it was the next of kin who made the donation. I don’t care that he was an important teapot-adjacent designer if his personal library is about athletics and molecular biology; his library isn’t relevant to us.)

    3. Sibley*

      “Hey, the library is full, and it’s a fire code violation. We really need to address this somehow. I was thinking that x, y, and z could be purged to help with this problem. What are your thoughts?”

    4. SCAnonabrarian*

      Hmmm…

      Ok, on the one hand, it’s likely that the students will never care that their project got cataloged or not, but I think legally speaking you need to have permissions before you publish things? That might be a useful angle for you to look into. Then you can be regretful but respectful of the students’ intellectual property and refuse to catalog them. :) At that point then they belong to the students, and I would think can be safely delivered back to the college where the professor worked and his department can deal with them.

      I do feel like it’s a little antagonistic and probably more confrontational than it’s worth to go straight to “let’s ditch this stupid crap” when you are already on rocky ground with the person who helped organize the project that resulted in said crap.

      So you need ways to get around that.
      Can you record them somehow? Photographs, videos (are they like dioramas or models? Ugh.) and write a short little description of the project, stick all the photos into a binder (or even better as an online resource on your webpage maybe?) and then catalog JUST that short little description of the project with the recordings, and toss the originals. Then it’s not taking up as much space and you can weed the binder in a few years when there’s evidence that it hasn’t been used.

      Can you make them someone else’s problem? Is there another library department or display area that could use them as “inspiration” or examples for the students? Is there a student life center back at the professor’s college that has a display space that you can plunk them into and then they just toss them after the display period?

      I think finding a tactful way of getting them off your hands will end up being the quickest and most gentle way of moving them out of your store room without jeopardizing your rocky relationship with your employee. Bonus points if you can get them invested in having the projects displayed or used somewhere else “where they’ll be appreciated and actually used” and then put them in charge of the project and say “since you’ve been involved from the beginning, it’s only appropriate that you be the one to bring the project to a successful close in honor of Professor Guy.”

      1. Teapot librarian*

        I hadn’t thought of returning them to the department at the college. That’s actually the best idea, I think. You win some of the M&Ms I’m having for lunch! :-)

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      I have actually had this exact same problem at my Teapot Library/Archive. I think most people in this business have. We ended up discussing it with our higher power (the Dean of Teapots) and getting his permission in writing. Then we spoke to the donor about the items in question and they told us to use our best judgement. We got this in writing too. Then quietly the items disappeared into the night via the dumpster and no one was the wiser.

      We did, however, have a collections policy to back us up and all staff were all onboard. So, figure out who you need to get clearance from and get it in writing. Then move forward. Covering your behind in situations like this is super critical.

      Another point is, how long have you been there? Taking over a collection from someone else who was there for a very long time can be super challenging. I wouldn’t take this on too early. I would wait until you have a high level of trust from your colleagues. People don’t always react well to change, especially not when they feel like it is coming from some new person. Sometimes, this means holding onto things for a few years until you feel confident that they can go away quietly and without anyone getting upset.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        I think if I had access to the donor, this would all be a lot easier!

        I was hired to make a lot of improvements fast, which I’ve completely failed at–for one thing, this is my first management job, and it turns out I definitely don’t have instinctive management skills. It’s been over a year, less than a year and a half, but big WHAT HAVE YOU ACCOMPLISHED deadlines are looming, so I’m feeling some pressure. The last people who have had my job have all had less-than-4-year tenures (though my predecessor had 2 of them–he retired and then was re-hired 4 years later), so I don’t want to wait so long that I’m out of a job. (Which my boss has been insinuating could be a lot sooner than 4 years. An issue for another time.)

        I’m actually in the hiring process (boy oh boy do people need to read Alison’s advice about applying for jobs) for the first new non-director in the office in quite some time, and I think it will help to have someone who I’ve brought on board to bounce ideas back and forth with. So maybe I should wait at least until then!

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          Well, in your case, I would argue the department is the donor, since that is where the students were. So with their written permission, you maybe in the clear.

    6. ExcitedAndTerrified*

      So, as a couple of other people have mentioned… you really need policies on collections and the weeding thereof. Your responses have indicated you realize that, but that it still hasn’t been finalized yet. I get how that happens… Writing policy is not actually a fun part of any job, and codifying procedures is even more boring.

      But there’s good news! You can very often adjust someone else’s policies to fit your needs, in a lot less time than it takes to write entirely new ones. Most professional library/museum organizations I’ve worked with have kept a repository of voluntarily submitted policies on various things, which members were free to take and adapt to their needs.

      Keep in mind that your collections policy should always leave room for some exercise of personal discretion. Sometimes the really old thing is worth keeping, just because it is really old, and you don’t want to throw it out otherwise.

      Aside from that… I’m a bit of a weeding fanatic, which does make me an oddity in the library fields. I’ve never found a good reason to put off dealing with it, despite what others tell me and themselves. But I’m also really good at gathering statistics and interpreting reports, so I can usually pull together a quick set of data that shows we have no reason to keep anything I’ve set my eyes on… and then, I make a couple of trips to the dumpster.

      Of course, if you think there is going to be push back, by a predecessor or someone else… Sometimes, you just have to cite other concerns, to get people to back down. Rather than saying it will never be used, try to find (or create) a particularly mildewed example of the work, say you think it’s likely to contaminate the actual collection if ever introduced, and then dispose of everything it was with, ‘just to be safe’.

      As far as having the conversation with the employee you mention: You might want to try putting the ball in that employee’s court, perhaps by starting the conversation by asking “Why haven’t these projects ever ended up in the active library under (Predecessor)’s and your watch, if they were created for us?” A lot of times, if you can get them to answer honestly, they’ll come to the realization that the projects simply aren’t worth the time and effort to catalog (though, depending on how invested they are, you might have trouble getting them to answer honestly).

      1. ExcitedAndTerrified*

        As another note on Collections and Weeding policies… The best policies for collections development/management/discard that I’ve seen, which correlate to the institution having a good and useful collection, all seemed to be based from the standpoint of asking “Why should I add/keep/replace this thing?” rather than asking “why should I get rid of it?”

        In other words, they assumed that the reason to keep any given item that was being considered could, if there was a need, actually be articulated, rather than assuming that the default mindset should be to keep a thing, because it was there.

        I think that mindset helps a lot, to curb the natural hoarding tendency that can show up, in this line of work.

  33. Beth*

    Starting a new job in a week! My biggest downfall is organization…any tips on staying organized from the beginning?

    1. Emac*

      What kinds of things do you need to organize – emails, files, project deadlines, etc? Are there things that have worked for you in the past, after you realized you needed to be more organized?

      I sometimes have a problem with organizing as well, but I feel like I’ve needed different systems at each job. But at least that past experience, and observing people who are super organized, has given me some tools to try for a new job, so hopefully I’ll keep getting faster at getting organized.

      My big thing is making it simple for myself and learning to let some things go. I can get a little obsessive about creating organizational systems, so I have to watch myself. For example, we use Gmail for our work email and it sometimes drives me crazy to go to my All Mail folder and see a mass of unorganized emails. But I also know that the search feature for Gmail is pretty powerful, so I’ve learned to not worry too much about “labeling” every email so explicitly and just relying on the search feature.

      1. Beth*

        Emails is a huge one – that’s something for which I’m going to need to come up with a simple solution, because like a lot of places we get WAYYY too many emails. Others are mostly deadlines (project-based work with varying lengths/intensity of projects) and learning/keeping track of some new technologies and systems. So thanks, I’m going to have to do something similar to you with the email – there’s just too much of it to keep it perfectly organized! My biggest problem with email is I’ll see one with an action that I can’t do that minute, and even though I flag it, sometimes I forget to go back to it – so I’ll need to make sure I get that out of my old email and onto some sort of to-do list.

        1. Emac*

          What do you use for email? I watched a webinar on time management awhile ago that completely revolutionized how I structure my email Inbox, but I’m not sure if it would work on Outlook or only on Gmail.

          In Gmail, in settings, there’s a tab for Inbox. If you switch it to Priority Inbox, you can then create four of your own categories that divide up your inbox.For example, their suggestion was to have 1) Important & Unread 2) Starred 3) Waiting on and 4) Everything Else

          The idea is that Important & Unread and Everything Else should be pretty much empty after each time you check email. For every email that you get, you do one of three or four things – answer it immediately if it won’t take a lot of time, “star” it if it will take longer so that you remember to go back to it, label it “Waiting On” if you need input from someone else before dealing with it, or maybe just reading and/or archiving it. And the goal is also to clear the Starred section by the end of each day.

          I also saw someone on another thread today mention using a Bullet Journal system. It actually looks like it could be really useful. I have an Arc notebook from Staples, that has pages that I can move around to different sections which I think would work really well with this system.

          1. Beth*

            Oooo I like that email strategy. Unfortunately I’m forced to use Outlook, but I might be able to figure out how to do something similar with it. I’ve heard a bit about bullet journaling but haven’t looked too much into it yet.

            1. The Moops*

              I use Boomerang for Gmail. They have a version for Outlook. I love being able to delay the sending of emails because I can do some work from home without setting up an expectation that I’m available after hours. Plus, if it’s something you don’t need to handle right away but you need to keep track of it, you can schedule it to be resent into the top of your inbox according to your specification (1 day, 5 days, on July 4th, etc.).

              You can file things according to Emac’s system (I also use the smart Inbox feature) and simultaneously set specific messages to be resent with Boomerang.

              If I can answer it as soon as I receive it without needing to look up anything, I do. And, when I check email from my phone, I’ll remark it as unread if it’s important so it doesn’t get lost in the inbox.

            2. Rocky*

              Beth, in Outlook you can right-click on the email then drag it to your calendar. I set it up as an appointment in my calendar that I will do the next day (or whenever). You can even bring attachments along.

    2. WorkerBee23*

      I just started a new job in October. I took notes daily in a notebook, then at the end of every single day, typed them into a OneNote document. (If you don’t have OneNote or don’t like it, Excel works too. Different tabs for different subjects!) This has helped me immensely – I transferred into a completely new-to-me industry & to have all of that referential information at the ready has been incredibly helpful. Also – Outlook folders! And Outlook tasks. Good luck to you & congrats on the new job!

      1. Beth*

        Thanks! Any good intros/training on outlook you’re aware of? I’ve used it for email for years at work, but embarrassingly it’s one of the few pieces of software I really don’t know how to use at a deeper level.

    3. CM*

      My tip is to focus on making sure you are keeping track of all open tasks and requests. It’s OK if your files are messy, you have lots of emails in your inbox, etc., as long as you’re not dropping the ball on things you’re being asked to do. You can have a paper notebook, Word file, draft email, whatever works for you, but have a to-do list (one, single list, not a bunch of notes) that you update religiously.

      1. Beth*

        I fall into the trap of putting my notes in so many different places so I’m going to try hard to keep it all in one notebook! I also like the idea that as long as I’m on top of that the organization of other stuff isn’t as important, thanks!

      2. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        I just started a new job 4 weeks ago and this has been key for me.

        I use the StickyNotes function in word to keep track of what I need to do each day and write down thoughts for the next day. Update throughout the day (move things down that are rolling over, add things as they come up) so when I get in first thing I can check my desktop stickynote and remind myself what is important.

        I also have a WIP word document where I write down all associated tasks for each project I am assigned (as well as things like Admin and Training) as they come out of meetings, AND where I keep track of my time (we have to input end of the month on timesheets). When I have accomplished something I draw a line through it but leave it on. One doc for each month so when it comes time to do appraisals, I can see what I worked on and what I did/who I talked to.

    4. JenM*

      I’m extremely disorganised in my personal life. I’ve learned to always keep a notebook with me so I can note down tasks and cross them off as I go. I check it over 30 mins before end of work to make sure I’m on top of everything. I also identify tasks I put off doing and make sure I do those first. Good luck!

      1. Beth*

        Thanks, I think I am going to try to find a small notebook that I can fit in my pocket. Maybe one of those moleskine ones? Physical notebook is definitely the way to go for me as the job is definitely not always desk-based so I need something with me constantly (and can’t always have my phone where I work)

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It’s my downfall too, and I just started a new job and committed myself to being organized. Everything I do is electronic and available on our network, but I learned at my last job that I am much better able to organize my thoughts if I write things down and use stationery to stay on top of things. Here’s what I do:

      – Take a lot of notes– I write most of mine down, write some in Evernote. The ones I write down, I sometimes type up in a separate document (depending on relevance), which helps me absorb the info and make it legible, because I have the world’s worst handwriting
      – While I’m taking a note, anything that is a task gets a star next to it
      – At the end of every day, I take out a fresh buckslip and write down the next day’s date and the list of things to do that day (this is totally new for me and I enjoy it– it works as an excellent way for me to get all of my thoughts in order)
      – Color-coded folders: I just did this today, made folders for each current project and assigned them a color by client (we have several projects for each client group)
      – Status Post-Its: on every folder, I have a Post-It that’s dated with each step in the project (e.g., “1/3: Approved by Client”), and I cross that out and update it with each step, even though most of this is covered in our project management software (that I have yet to truly learn)

      My job has a TON of information to process, and I realized early on that I have to take the extra step to stay on top of it all. It also helps that my new boss won’t scoff at me for keeping paper around like my last boss did.
      Good luck!

      1. Beth*

        Yes I’m also definitely better with writing things down, plus I am often not at my desk and don’t have access to my computer. I like the star next to tasks idea, and also really love writing my to-do list for tomorrow at the end of the day. I actually started doing this a while ago and it was great, but didn’t keep on top of it enough. It helped so much when I did though, I came in the next morning knowing exactly what to start working on. I’m determined to keep it up at the new job! Thanks!

    6. Dawn*

      Get a notebook and a pen and bring them everywhere with you! Write everything down in the notebook and nowhere else. For things that need to get done, put a box next to them as a line item. For things that need to get done by you personally, put a box and a star next to the line item. So stuff like you getting your benefits set up, “Submit paperwork to HR” would be a box and a star, because you have to do that, but “Recieve healthcare card in the mail” would just be a box, because it happens without your input. That way in a couple weeks if you haven’t gotten the card yet, when you’re looking through your notebook at your outstanding items you can be like “Oh yeah I need to look into that”- new line item “Ask HR about healthcare card” with a box and a star! Check off the boxes as you complete things/ as they’re completed, and I also like to draw a line through the task just to make it easier to see what’s done.

      1. Beth*

        YES! I love the idea of check boxes even for things *I* don’t need to do. Often I am waiting for something from someone, and receiving it would prompt an action on my part, but if they don’t follow through/aren’t on time, then I forget to follow up with them. This happens all the time in my industry, so people generally understand that I couldn’t move forward without X, but following up will definitely keep my projects moving forward and keep me more informed about where they are. Thanks so much!

        1. Worker Bee (Germany)*

          Late to the party, but maybe it still helps. I also use a notebook aka my work bible. And similar to how Dawn describes his organization of checks boxes, is my set up of my outlook inbox. I have folders where everything that is dealt with or is just an FYI, is sorted in. In my Inbox folder are two kind of emails: The read ones, where I am waiting on someone to get back to me and my read but marked again as unread emails, which are my to dos. Every evening or if I have to get going, the next morning, I go through the inbox and check what needs my immediate attention, or where I do need to follow up, since I haven’t heard back in a while on that teapot design request email. Those to dos will be written down in my notebook on the To Do today list.
          Hope this helps and makes sense. And congrats on the job!

    7. zora*

      Others have great tips, but I want to add that you should ask some of the new people you will be working with! Often I find my organization system really depends a lot on the job and how the company prioritizes things, so I have gotten great advice from new coworkers that has really helped me get organized faster. I’ve asked things like, “So, how do you usually organize your email? Do you have any systems or tips that have really worked well for you? Is chronological better, or by topic?” Feel free to ask your boss as well as other coworkers in your area. I have found people are actually impressed when I ask, they don’t assume I’m an idiot who doesn’t know how to organize, it actually sounds even more like I know what I’m doing.

      Good luck!

    8. Windchime*

      I just started a new job a few weeks ago and decided that I was going to try to do better at being organized. So this is what I’m currently doing:

      –OneNote: I’m a big fan and have been for years. I keep a One Note file full of notes — some are general How-To, others are notes for certain projects.

      –Email — We use Outlook, and I’ve started using my Unread Email folder. It’s much easier to see at a glance what hasn’t been read. Thus far, most of my emails are informational only but I do have some rules set up for important emails so they get moved to correct folders upon receipt. But the cool thing is — if they are unread, I still see them because even though they might no longer be in my Inbox, they are in my Unread Email.

      –Folders in Explorer — I used to be terrible about just dumping things into one giant folder on my network drive. Now I have a folder for each project. I save copies of project emails, sample files, anything that is related to that project gets saved in its own folder. It’s been really helpful.

      –Ticket tracking — We have a ticketing system at work to keep track of each project. One of the things my manager insists on is that we update users every week on each ticket, regardless of our progress. At first I wondered if this was overkill, but now I realize that it really helps me to stay accountable.

      –Paper Notebook — I have a page for each project in my notebook and I jot down a quick note every time there is a change to the project status. That way, when I’m asked I can quickly flip through and look at the last entry so I know what the current status is.

      This seems like a lot, but it’s shaping up to really make me feel less anxious and more aware of the status of all my projects.

  34. Fortitude Jones*

    Yay, Friday! Last day and then I’m taking a much needed break from work for a week because I have been thisclose to rage quitting the past couple of months. I like my job okay for the most part, but I hate our agents, I hate our insureds, and I hate their clients – my job would be a thousand times better if I didn’t have to deal with these people. The incompetence/stupidity is astounding. And I’m tired of upper management always rolling over and letting these damn people throw hissy fits to get their way. Sometimes “no” should really mean “no” and be the end of a conversation.

    Anyway, my one year anniversary in this new position is coming up on the 18th, but I just don’t know how much longer I’m going to be able to stay in this division. I feel bad about that because the Senior VP of my division keeps giving me great training opportunities that he’s not giving others who have been there longer than me, and he and my AVP went through hell to get me out of my previous division, but I just can’t deal with their annoying ass clientele. I don’t know if this is just burnout talking (my division is a volume based business with warp-speed turnaround requirements, and I’ve been working five months straight with no break besides major holidays) or if I’m truly dissatisfied with damn near everything, so hopefully, this week break will help me clarify some things.

    *sigh* Let me make it through this year without losing my shit….

    1. Spoonie*

      Good gawd I read that and it could have been me 18 months ago. As in I thought it was my old company…until I saw some of the details you posted.

      While I was job hunting (I’d been at Old Job ~2 years), I started doing things outside of work that I enjoyed — teapot making classes, long walks, library visits, dinner with friends. I tried to make life outside of work as fabulous as possible so that when I was at Old Job I didn’t ragequit. Or rant at coworkers.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, I really need to get back into my writing so I can have an outlet for the anger that comes from dealing with stupid people all day, lol.

  35. JacqOfAllTrades*

    Happy Friday! I just popped in to say I love this website and find it so very helpful. I’m learning a lot, but thankfully my workplace is pretty awesome so I don’t have to use it too often :) And for an HR person to say that, you *know* it’s gotta be an awesome workplace.

  36. Alison*

    Parents calling in. My teenage son is a courtesy clerk at the neighborhood grocery store. If they call in sick 3 days they have to get a Dr. note. He’s been pretty sick and passed it on to me. I’m immune compromised so I went in at first sign of symptoms to get tested for the flu – yup, its the Asian type A, already in epidemic status in Seattle and 60% of us positive for the flu got the flu shot – grrrr!

    Son’s 3rd scheduled day came up and his dad called out sick for him for two reasons; he’d had a rough night coughing all night, up and down and he was finally sleeping. 2, Most importantly, he was going to go in anyway and suffer through because that’s the culture of this management (confirmed by the in store retail pharmacy staff that we’re friendly with).

    He was definitely still contagious (fever in the night) but now we’re the bad guys. Clearly I’m too close to be objective. Werw we wrong? We’ve been completely hands off with this up until now. He applied on his own, interviewed, etc. although I did make him read all the relevant interview tips Alison has!

    1. Leatherwings*

      Yep, you were in the wrong here I’m sorry. It’s your son’s responsibility to handle his job, and it’s *always* weird when parents contact an employer on a child’s behalf. Waking up and calling out when you’d rather be sleeping is just part of working life.

      Sounds like you’re really great and conscientious parents, but your role here should’ve been coaching him through why he needed to call out (because he was contagious and could’ve made himself sicker), not doing it for him.

      1. bopper*

        I have to disagree…if the teenager is under 18 then I think when the employee is so sick they cannot function it would be okay to call in for them…but obviously try not to do this if you can. It is like if someone was in the hospital for an emergency it would be okay for the spouse to let the employer know.

        1. Leatherwings*

          I’ve managed young people before, and being too sick to function is one thing (like, if they are in the hospital), but just sleeping in? I don’t want a call from your parents. Regardless of his age, this is a real job and he and his parents should treat it as such.

          1. Anna*

            As an adult I’ve been too sick to call in to work. Like fevered and out of it, so my boyfriend at the time had to do it for me. There are always exceptions.

            1. Triangle Pose*

              I think we all agree that if you are too sick to function, someone else can call. Leatherwings is saying sleeping in is not one of these exceptions. It’s a real job and the song should treat it that way. Parents should have woken him up to call or explained to him before he slept that he has the responsibility to set an alarm and call in.

      2. KR*

        I have to agree. We employed your teenager, not you. We need him to call in. Unless he’s in the hospital and unable to speak or delerious, he can give us a 3 minute phone call.

    2. Jenbug*

      I think you definitely overstepped. For one thing, the only time that a 3rd party should call off for someone else is if they are unconscious or literally cannot speak.

      And it should have been your son’s choice if he was calling off or not.

      1. KR*

        Oh yeah on your second point. Not saying you would do this OP, but I’ve had parents show up to the grocery store and get mad at me because their teen came to work because they didn’t feel that sick and then take their teen home. Or have the teen come in the next day and tell us their parents forced them to call out. It’s hard to get mad at them because they’re still under 18 and have to obey their parents and don’t always have control over their ride or whether they can leave the house or not.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I mean, IMO if he’s 14 or so, maybe it’s your call. If he’s a high school senior or later, you’ve way overstepped.

      Signed,
      Fellow parent of a teenager.

      P.S. Speedy recovery to everyone!

    4. Caroline*

      I’m not clear from your post who is casting you as the “bad guy,” your son or the employer?

      Unless you son is VERY young, like 14-15, I’d say yes, it was inappropriate for you to step in. This is something that should have been handled by him, with your advice/guidance.

    5. Apollo Warbucks*

      For what its worth I think you should have put your foot down with him in private and made him call in sick himself, rather than call in for him, if he’s old enough to be working he’s old enough to call in without his parents doing it for him.

    6. Lemon Zinger*

      Your son is old enough to have a job, so he is old enough to call out sick. It’s inappropriate for someone else to call an employee out sick unless said employee is vomiting repeatedly or unconscious.

      Your son is probably worried about being fired now, as I would be if I were in his shoes.

      1. Alison Read*

        Yes! This! He thinks his job is in trouble now. Age wise he’s a HS jr, although he finished/graduated HS this past semester. He just turned 17. It’s such an odd balance. He’s on the cusp of being an adult yet still a kid. Smart kid but zero interest in college.

        I’m just hoping his managers are used to meddling parents. Leatherwings, having experience managing teenagers please tell me we’re not the first parents to cross this boundary?! I think it was a lot me feeling like crap and not having the energy to battle a hardheaded teenager.

        Now we’re the ones that will take him into the pediatrician to get a release to work – there’s something about that that seems so odd!

        1. Leatherwings*

          Haha! You’re certainly not the first, don’t worry. It’s not a huge deal, just something I would advise that you do differently in the future :)

        2. Lemon Zinger*

          When I was a teenager about to start my first job, my mom actually CAME IN to the office to speak to my boss about why she wouldn’t provide my social security card, which she later gave to me after it was made clear to her that I wouldn’t be hired without it. It was horribly embarrassing. Later my boss took me aside and said though she understood that we were mostly all in our teens, parents getting involved in our work was unacceptable.

          Seriously, he COULD be fired if his boss is enough of a grump. Hopefully your son realizes that every aspect of his job, including calling out sick, is up to him.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          One more year and then he is 18, AR. Hang tough.

          No. You are not the first parent nor are you the second parent. And as you illustrate here this is one reason why it happens. Parents call because it’s the path of least resistance.

          Hopefully his boss will scare the daylights out of him, “Don’t ever have mommy call again.” That would actually help you in the situation.

          I hope you feel better knowing that I had to explain to a 21 y/o that mom could not call in for her. (The explanation went well, she was duly upset and there were no further occurrences.)

        4. Alison Read*

          End result – he was not put on the schedule for next week. According to him: he showed up, first/only words from the boss , “Where’s your note?” Son handed it over and boss asked, “When are you scheduled?” DS said he wasn’t on the schedule, “Be here at 8:45 Monday.” I don’t know if that’s some type of punishment? He’s never started worked before noon (another factor in our boundary crossing call – to ensure a 4 hr notice before his scheduled shift – yeah, I recognize, still not a valid excuse). I’m hoping it was just an open spot they could fit him in on the schedule, nothing more, nothing less, so we can put this all behind us.

          The good thing of all of this, my son’s first exposure to the working world is a pretty tough trial by fire. We’ve coached him to not let others opinions of his coworkers/bosses influence his opinions, I’ve challenged him to find a commonality with those that are supposedly the most difficult to get through to, to try and form some type of connection and hopefully create positive relationships. Being that it’s a local, neighborhood store, there is definitely a grain of truth in the very few and very far between complaints I manage to find out from him about his job.

          I figure if he manages to be successful at this job – he’ll be well positioned for pretty much anything the working world has to throw at him.

        5. blackcat*

          As a former teacher of 17 year olds, I think it can be a hard age for parents. As you said, they’re still kids in a lot of ways… yet they are very close to being adults.

          But the only way for them to become functioning adults is for them to start taking over their own stuff. As long as he is a relatively normal kid (no significant mental illness or developmental delays), I can pretty much promise you that if you start treating him like an adult, he’ll start behaving like one. He may stumble, he may mess up, but messing up is unlikely to ruin his life (unless he/his friends are into hard drugs/will drink and drive OR he is speeds while driving). He might not be a very responsible adult, but he will likely be no less responsible than most young adults.

          Could he get himself fired? Yes. Could he be miserable working while sick, and have his coworkers made at him for making them sick? Yes. Could he get in a fender-bender and struggle with higher insurance costs? Yes.

          These are mistakes you should let him make. It’s his life and those are his mistakes. I KNOW this is hard! But, in many ways, the most loving thing you can do–and the best way to take care of him in the long run–is to let him manage his own life. DON’T battle him unless it’s super serious (eg take away car keys if you see evidence of dangerous driving). You can advise, but then let him make his own decisions.

          Also recommended: check with his doctor to see if they are okay with him taking himself to appointments (or, if he does not drive, being dropped off and picked up later). Many doctors (at least family docs) are okay with treating a 16+ year olds without a parent present. Depending on your state, they may need your consent to treat him for anything, but he should be able to go and get his own doctor’s note for work.

          1. Observer*

            Lots of doctors will see kids even younger without the parents present. Of course, as you say, they need parental consent for treatment, but doctor’s notes type of things don’t need it.

            I live a short walk from my pediatrician. I’ve sent my kids for throat cultures and the like on their own long before they were 18.

    7. Emac*

      I’m a little surprised by the reactions here – I was reading the OP as saying that the son *didn’t* want to call in sick at all, but she made the decision that he wasn’t going to go to work and called in. That to me seems like a bigger deal than who should have actually made the call.

      That said, OP, it sounds like you’ve taken the comments here to heart and learned from this, which I imagine can’t be easy to do especially when you’re worried about your child. And I’m sure you’ve already done this, but I think it’s important to make it clear to your son that you realize you violated his boundaries and won’t do something like that again, and help him to figure out how to communicate his boundaries with you and others clearly. And that it’s normal to do that. (Sorry, I don’t mean to sound lecture-y; my mother firmly believes that children, no matter what age (I’m over 40), do not have a right to boundaries ever, so it’s a bit touchy for me.)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think the two go hand-in-hand. Because mom made the call it’s assumed that mom decided he should stay home also. Making assumptions is not a good thing, but it’s reasonable to expect bosses would make this assumption.

  37. No Name Listed for Post*

    6 years ago I was fired due to a poor attitude that was resulting from major family problems in my personal and home life. I wish I’d been able to afford to take an unpaid leave of absence or had sought help a lot sooner. I’m currently continuing with therapy and deeply regret the way I handled myself. I lost my temper with coworkers, did poor work and was unpleasant to work with.

    How would you concisely explain being fired for a poor attitude this on applications and how you’ve moved on/it won’t happen again?

    1. Venus Supreme*

      I would say something along the lines of that your personal life issues bled into your workplace practices, and emphasize that you’ve taken action to ensure that this situation wouldn’t happen again. Much emphasis on the now :)

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      “I was dealing with family problems which affected my ability to work as effectively as I would have liked.”

    3. animaniactoo*

      “I was dealing with major issues in my personal life and was fired when I didn’t handle it well and it impacted my work. Although it’s unlikely that I’ll have issues that significant again, I’ve put in a lot of work to make sure that I’ll be able to keep it from affecting my work if it happens.”

      But only if what you’re answering the question “Have you ever been fired, and if so why?” Otherwise, I think this is something you discuss in an interview.

    4. Fish Microwaver*

      The advice from the 3 previous posters is excellent. It was 6 years ago, you learned from it and did the necessary work to deal with major stressors. Please be kind to yourself and close the door on that chapter.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        It’s amazing how this works, when we forgive ourselves we can start to better understand how others find ways to forgive us, too.

  38. Venus Supreme*

    Anyone else get the winter blues that affect their relationship with their job? Around this time of year I always get those “what am I doing with my life, maybe I should switch careers” thoughts. Never happens at any other time of the year, only in the middle of the winter.

    I have to say, though, I’ve made yoga a part of my weekly routine and it’s helped to keep those existential crises at bay.

    2. rawr*

      Yes, I’ve noticed that I do it, too. Can you identify ‘why winter’? Is it a touch of SAD, or is it something as simple as the fresh start of a new year gets you thinking about want you want from life? What is your workload like (i.e., if it’s slower, you may have more time to think about your overall happiness). It can be hard to sort out whether you’re temporarily discontent or whether a big change is needed, so you have my sympathies.

      1. Venus Supreme*

        Oh yes, I definitely deal with SAD. I have (manageable) depression and it gets uglier around winter time. There’s a remarkable difference in me when I’m outside in the sun all day versus working a regular 10-6 work day and never seeing the sun (because of the shorter days). I’ve been in this new job since May and my job duties are a lot more simplified and I have my own space/office. Last year at ToxicJob was the total opposite, and I was still getting the same scattered, paranoid thoughts: “Is the low pay worth working in the arts industry? Should I work more on the artistic side? Should I go corporate to get a six-figure salary? Should I get a job where I can get summers off and I can live down the shore? Should I go freelance and make my own hours?”

    3. Parenthetically*

      Yep. Job/life restlessness is one of my SAD symptoms. Staying busy is helpful for me, as is exercise.

      1. Venus Supreme*

        I thought it’d be connected to my SAD! I’ve been making a bigger effort to include exercise in my days. I’ll keep that in mind next time I don’t want to get out of bed and go to the gym :-P

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I tend to forget to set goals for this time of year. I don’t think that helps me. This winter I have buried myself in goals and I feel better as I chip away at them.

      You could write down some of your questions and review the questions during the summer months to see if your knee jerk response are different.

    5. Let's keep this between us*

      OMG, I’m seeing this late but have to add that I was diagnosed with SAD several years ago. I have a personal policy that during the months of October to February I ignore any thoughts that come up of divorcing my spouse! I tell myself that I can revisit those thoughts in March and beyond if I still want to, which then I don’t. My SAD always kicks off with feelings of regret that soon become anxiety and depression with strong accents of perseveration masking as “problem solving.” I wonder if you’re having a parallel work experience.

      I used a light box for several winters after being diagnosed but it was never enough. This is my first winter on Wellbutrin. I feel completely normal! Hallelujah!!!

  39. Amy The Rev*

    I have mixed news- moved ahead in my interviewing process for an Associate Minister position I’ve applied to, the next step is a “neutral pulpit” where I go preach at a different church and members of the search committee come watch me. This is usually the last step before an offer…

    The rub: while the position itself would be a DREAM (700 person youth group that i would help advise but wouldnt have to lead, near my family, great salary, great senior minister who has a similar vision as me as to where we’d like to lead the church in the next 5 years, etc), the only downside is the living situation: they’d want me to live in their parsonage. Which will likely be a deal-breaker for me. I’d be, as a single, super extroverted 27-year old, living alone in a 3BR house that I can’t afford to furnish other than a bed/table/loveseat, in the middle of the suburbs, with no access to public transportation/my friends, in a town where only 4% of people are under 35, and with parishioners living 2 houses down on either side. Plus there’s the whole ‘dont like my landlord being a volunteer committee of my parishioners’ thing, where it can take months to get non-emergency repairs done, and the negative financial/tax hit (taxes are weird for clergy and even weirder when you live in church housing). PLUS there’s the whole privacy thing, and if I were to leave the job I’d lose my housing, etc.

    So what I’m planning on doing is trying to meet with the search committee one more time before the neutral pulpit to see if they’d be willing to let me live in the next town over (lots of young people, plus its on the subway system into the city), or let me have roommates in the parsonage (who would get to live there for free!). I’m in pretty precarious financial straits right now, but living alone in that parsonage would be a recipe for depression and I would rather sacrifice my financial health than my mental health. Having local friends who I can see frequently and regularly is what makes my living just above poverty level worth it and bearable. No matter how much money I made, not having friends nearby who I can spend time with on a regular basis would be unbearable for me (I’ve done it before and it was the. worst.)

    Wish me luck!! I’ve heard from some sources that they’re pretty excited about me, so I’m hoping I have enough leverage to negotiate…

    1. bopper*

      Church Trustee here:

      Are you getting involved in a denomination where parsonage’s are the norm? (e.g. Methodist).? Then you will always have housing like that. Does the parsonage come with any furniture?
      If not, can you ask someone on the staff/parish relations group to ask for donations for you?
      If you lived in the next town, how would you pay for it? The church would not do double payments and most likely not want to sell the parsonage.
      Also use this time to ask for any repairs that might be needed…when one pastor leave that is a great time for them to repaint/refloor and upgrade a bit.
      Also ask to talk to their Trustees about how the parsonage maintenance procedure goes.
      We have had pastors who are very hands off with repairs and it takes longer (not that they have to do it, but they put no effort into callign or being there for appointments). We have had pastors who are more involved so that leaves more time for Trustees to do capital improvements.
      Is getting a car a possibility?
      Can you talk to the former pastor to see if the neighbors were actually an issue?

      1. bopper*

        Re: haveing a roommate…my concern would be insurance and what if there was damage issues? Not saying these could not be talked through.

      2. Amy The Rev*

        In my denomination its more common to have a housing allowance- the committee said they had considered selling/renting the parsonage and offering a housing allowance, but it felt like a hassle and they liked having the minister live in the town. I asked the senior minister (who used to live in the parsonage) what it was like for repairs, and she said it usually took a few months if they were non-emergency, and that sometimes neighbors would stop by, but usually only briefly. I do have a car, so can get from one town to the next pretty easily, it would just add up to have to pay for parking every time i want to get into the city to see friends/be social.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Repairs. At our church we have a spring clean up and a fall clean up. This is the time that all those non-emergency repairs are handled. If repairs are not getting done by volunteers in a timely manner perhaps you can ask for a repair budget so you have choices on how to handle a repair problem.

          I would recommend this whether you live on site or not. The church still needs routine maintenance.

    2. ThatGirl*

      So, I’m a pastor’s kid who’s actually lived in a parsonage – to me it doesn’t make sense for an associate minister to be the one living in a parsonage! If anyone should live there I’d think it’d be the senior pastor, although TBH I think the whole idea is a bit out of step with reality. But like, why would they want your position or you, specifically, to live there?

      I hope you can work something out and explain that for your own general financial and mental health it doesn’t make sense to live in a large, out-of-the-way house on your own, but that you’re really excited about the job in general.

      1. Amy The Rev*

        The church actually has 2 parsonages, one for the senior and one for the associate! Super rare for the region/denomination.

        1. ThatGirl*

          Ah, yes, that IS unusual. Even so, I think you have some room to discuss why this isn’t a great thing for everyone.

    3. Thomas*

      Former church board member here:

      I’m not sure about your specific context, but many churches are wanting to get rid of parsonages/rectories because of the financial liability (though this church appears to be doing well financially). I see a couple of potential solutions:
      1. Perhaps you can come to an agreement by which you live elsewhere and the parsonage is rented out. The church might be happy for the income.
      2. Alternatively, the parsonage could be rented to a low income family at a reduced rate. This could be a great mission/outreach project for the church.

      If you go into the meeting/interview with a couple of ideas about what they can do with the property, they might be more willing to negotiate it.

      (Also, I’d be careful suggesting you have roommates. The church may not want that sort of situation should sensitive materials/conversations happen in that home. Yes, I realize that many ministers have family, but roommates are a different situation.)

      1. Amy The Rev*

        That brings up another question- since I’m single, what would happen if I met someone, we started dating, and a couple years into the position we wanted to move in together? I know it’s a progressive denomination as a whole, but I’m also going to have to ask the committee if they’re ok with the prospect of an unmarried couple living together in the parsonage. I don’t think the parsonage model offers many benefits for a single clergyperson, to be honest.

        1. Thomas*

          I think that’s a conversation you’d have to have when the situation arises, not right away. (If that’s what you mean already, then, sorry!)

          That’s a really interesting question though that brings up a changing societal morality and how that goes (or doesn’t) with religious institutional morality. (Completely off topic from this site, but fascinating.)

          1. Amy The Rev*

            SO fascinating, and how folks can hold liberal political/religious values while still also holding fast to elements of traditionalism (like a church saying: ‘yes we’re totally fine with a gay clergy member but unless he and his partner are married, no cohabitation!’)

            Ok now my church-dorkiness is veering off-topic….oops!

        2. Christy*

          My friend just got engaged to a Presbyterian pastor! She (friend) moved into the parsonage with her (pastor) after dating for four months. It’s a small congregation, and my friend is a member of the congregation, and essentially, when they started dating, my friend had to consider the associate pastor “her” pastor and her girlfriend just her girlfriend, not her pastor. But the church was very excited to see them date, and they happily supported my friend moving in.

          1. Amy The Rev*

            oh wow- in my denomination, dating a congregant can be grounds for disciplinary action! Glad it worked out so well for your friend and her fiance :)

        3. NoTurnover*

          Oh, wow–it’s been a little while since I was actively involved in a church, but I have a feeling that in my denomination (ELCA), pastoral cohabitation, whether in the parsonage or not, would NOT be okay. My impression is that while cohabitation is accepted for parishioners and other staff (someone close to me is a music director currently living with their opposite-sex partner), pastors are held to a different standard. They might even have to sign something that promises they won’t engage in certain types of behavior (which might include premarital sexual activity)? If I was to guess based on growing up in churches, I think many people these days might look the other way about a pastor who they suspected was engaging in premarital sex, but cohabiting might be a bridge too far. Mentioning it as a possibility to a hiring committee might even take you out of the running for the position. Our congregations have a lot of autonomy in hiring–for instance, even though women have been ordained for many years, an individual congregation can decide that they prefer not to hire a woman.

          People I know indicate that expectations around pastors have changed a lot in recent years, so I very well might be wrong. But personally, I’d do some careful research on what people in your denomination think of cohabiting pastors before risking even mentioning it to the committee.

          1. Amy the Rev*

            My denomination doesn’t have any teachings against premarital sex, especially since for same-sex couples, until relatively recently, any sex would be pre-marital! It’s more about whether or not the congregation would be uncomfortable with the minister living with their SO, even if by and large the denomination/theology has no problems with it, since the congregation is older and in an area that can be somewhat traditionalist despite being quite liberal.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think they need to give you a better idea of expectations. What kind of availability to they envision you having here? Do they expect to call you at 2 am and you come running?

      Most pastors I know of seem to be available 24/7, it’s a life consuming job. They are never home anyway so it does not matter that they are alone, the place is unfurnished and so on.

      Granted my knowledge of what other churches are doing is fairly limited but it seems to me that you have a list here that would almost require a special setting. Can you divide this list into “must haves” and “nice to haves” so you are not accidentally limiting yourself in the job market?

      1. Amy the Rev*

        Yeah, its mostly for me an issue of the ability to have/make friends closeby. I’d be ok living in a suburban parsonage if i could have roommates, or living alone in a parsonage if it were in an area with/near more of my peers. Ideally I’m looking for a post with a housing allowance (more common in my denomination) instead of a parsonage. This particular one just unfortunately doesn’t seem to offer any pros, only cons :(

    5. Girasol*

      Do you know why? Is it because you might be expected to have people calling at the door day and night and need you close at hand? Or because they need someone they can trust in the parsonage as a sort of house sitter? If you know the reason you might be able to offer a more appropriate alternative.

      1. Amy the Rev*

        From what I gather, its because they want the minister to be ‘visible’ around town, they said they want someone they can run into while grocery shopping/walking/etc on a day-to-day basis, etc. I’m happy to be a presence in the town, especially during my working hours, but it’s becoming more understood in ministry these days the importance of having 2 full days off (or the time equivalent of that), and that parishioners should only really be calling ministers on their days off if the situation is so dire they have already called 911 for something (aka house burning down, death, accident, etc). So my ideal situation is to live in the next town over (which is still within a 15 min drive of the church), but make a concerted effort to go to school plays, sports events, town events, etc., I just think it’s better to have some boundaries in place to avoid burn-out. Often congregants have an expectation of 24/7 availability, even though that isn’t a healthy model of ministry for both parish and pastor.

  40. LizB*

    My second interview for my potential promotion was supposed to be yesterday, but our VP was out sick. :( I’m waiting for a calendar request to see when it’s going to be rescheduled. I’m trying not to get impatient, but all my coworkers keep asking me if I got the promotion yet (everyone except me is convinced I’m a sure bet), which is making it tricky not to get annoyed at how long the process is taking. Deep breaths.

  41. Juli G.*

    Big change at work. I feel pretty neutral about it. As things get crazy with the implementation and things I pointed out months ago are finally addressed in a panic, it’s easy to skew negative. Especially for a sarcastic person like me.

    Overall, I think this change will be fine. I don’t know if it’s actually better but once all the kinks are worked out, it won’t be worse than the current way.

    What are your tips for staying positive and presenting positivity (especially in the “I told you that 2 months ago!” moments)?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “Yep, I though that X might be a problem a couple months ago. I suggest that we do A or B to remedy that matter.”

      Oddly, it can be okay to say we saw something coming where the problems occur is if we have no thoughts on how to patch/remedy the matter.

  42. Concerned*

    A social media question for you all:

    My brother will soon be graduating from a very well-respected healthcare program. In his chosen field he’ll be put in a position of respect and he’ll be touching people a lot (think massage, physiotherapy, chiropractic, acupuncture, etc.). However, he also seems to have a penchant for posting racy photos to un-locked social media accounts which means that anyone can see them. These photos leave very little to the imagination. When you google his name, they pop right up. I’m worried that if he continues to do this it could really hurt his professional reputation. I want to say something, but I’m nervous to do so because I fear he’ll lash out. He doesn’t have to stop posting them, just lock his accounts and everything would be fine. Should I say something or leave it be?

    1. Leatherwings*

      I think this depends a lot on your relationship with your brother. If you think there’s a chance he’ll listen then I’d bring it up – once.
      Maybe send him an article about social media practices (AAM has a few) and say that you noticed his accounts are public, and you strongly suggest he lock them.

      After that, it’s up to him whether to listen or not (I have a sibling who wouldn’t listen, so I know that’s frustrating).

    2. orchidsandtea*

      Ummmm yes, say something precisely once and then leave it be. “Hey, I wouldn’t be comfortable going to a brand-new massage practitioner if the first thing I saw when googling them was racy photos on their Twitter. If you lock your social media accounts, you can sidestep that problem.”

      I would NOT be visiting any sort of healthcare practitioner if I found this sort of stuff, mostly because it indicates really poor judgment!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      If he is in one of the alternative modalities and posting stuff like this I would decide he is a conflicted person and avoid going to him. Typically people doing massage therapy, chiropractic, etc are all about concern for human suffering and eliminating pain. They move away from things like posting racy photos.

      If your brother has a habit of lashing out at you, then I would skip this one. Someone else somewhere will tell him and he will take the advice or not.

      You could send him a screen shot of search results for his name. “hey, just wanted to be sure you were aware”. Use the least number of words possible. Other than that I think I would just let this go.

    4. Is Genevieve pronounced Jen A Veev or Zsahn Vee Ayve*

      Why does he do this under his actual name? Haven’t people ever heard of online monikers?? LOL. Everyone on AaM obviously has, but sheesh, I don’t get it. None of my casual social media is tied to my actual name in any way shape or form, not even through the email I use to sign up. But my kick-back and have fun and catch up with folks social media isn’t tied to me in that way. If someone wants to find it, they have to do a lot of sleuthing.

      My business and professional stuff, sure.

    5. vpc*

      How embarrassed would he be to realize that *you* see the racy stuff? You could even bring it up from that standpoint. “so, you know, I used to change your diapers… but I recently googled your name and saw some things that really could have stayed in the past… did you realize that I, and everyone, can see that, and maybe you might wanna tighten down a little bit and keep some things private?”

      I would be horrified if I searched my brother’s name and popped up that kind of stuff. Not because he shouldn’t be doing it / posting it, but because I shouldn’t be able to see it without having to take the positive step of saying “hey, bro, you’ve got some stuff locked down here… would you give me access?” and being completely prepared to accept “uhm, no, I’d rather you didn’t see that” as the answer.

    6. New Window*

      If you and your brother don’t have a relationship where he would be likely to listen to you, is it something you could pass along for your parents, a cousin, or perhaps even one of his friends or colleagues to tell him?

  43. BGG2*

    Resume question – Do I need to indicate on my resume that my current job is part-time and that I’m an independent contractor? Thanks.

        1. NJ Anon*

          I would say it depends. I was hiring for a part-time position. I received a resume and the person actually looked like a good fit except they didn’t say they were working or looking for part-time, so I didn’t call them. When no one in the first round of interviews was hired, I reached out and they said that the job listed on their resume was part-time and they were looking for part-time. She ended up with the job but I would have brought her in sooner if I knew that.

    3. Chaordic One*

      Unless you’re looking for more work as an independent contractor I wouldn’t put it on my resume. If you fill out an application, it might ask for that information and you should probably provide it there.

  44. Puuuurrrrfectly Confused*

    I wear many hats in my role, some quite different as well!

    My role is titled something like Teapot Solutions Expert, in reality I’m the system administrator/financial analyst/project manager for two departments.

    Does it make sense to list it that way on a resume? Or should I just list one of the normal sounding titles and let the accomplishments speak for themselves?

    1. animaniactoo*

      List the role title and then in the accomplishments detail that in this role you handle responsibilities that fall in the category of “system administrator/financial analyst/project manager” and as such you have been able to achieve…

  45. Mimmy*

    Resume question: Appointments on volunteer councils

    Because I’ve been out of work for some time, I’ve been listing my participation on two councils on my resume, including bulleted details of what my involvement entails and any specific subcommittee positions.

    I realized yesterday that I haven’t included the length of my terms and wondered if I should be. This is how I have it now for both:

    Statewide Teapot Council
    Governor-appointed member     <- Three-year term and I'm up for renewal in April, but appointments and re-appointments often take months, sometimes a year or more.

    County Teapot Services Advisory Council
    Appointed member     <- members of this are appointed by county freeholders, each term is 3 years; I just renewed last January.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I would just do something like:

      Statewide Teapot Council
      Governor-appointed member (2014-present)

  46. Lemon Zinger*

    I have good news I want to share!

    One of my coworkers is out on maternity leave and we suspect she may not return to work once it ends. This morning, my boss called me to ask if I would take on one of the coworker’s responsibilities. It’s a rather niche thing and I have no experience with it, but my boss and my coworker’s manager both think I’m perfect for it because I’m detail-oriented and good at explaining complicated processes to people.

    I’m thrilled that they thought of me and asked me before anyone else. I can’t wait to dive in and add this new aspect of the field to my repertoire!

    1. rawr*

      Wait, hold the phone. Has your coworker actually said that she’s not returning? Because if she hasn’t, this is super crappy of your boss and the coworker’s manager. They’re essentially shoving her out the door before she’s indicated that she’s ready, and they’ve promised you job duties that you may or may not get to take over.

      As someone who has had two maternity leaves, I would be LIVID if I found out people were having those conversations behind my back.

      1. Lemon Zinger*

        She hasn’t said one way or another, which is why we think she is still making up her mind. It’s ONE small aspect of her job that I’m taking over. If she does return, I will gladly return the duty to her immediately.

      2. Lissa*

        Ok, but they need to cover the job duties of the coworker who isn’t there, so I don’t think Lemon Zinger is out of line for being excited to be the one to do it…

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        Also, even if the coworker does come back from maternity leave, perhaps this might be something where it helps to have a back-up?

        1. Lemon Zinger*

          Yes, it will help! If the coworker comes back, it’s possible that she’ll be part-time for a while, in which case they’ll need backups for her more urgent work if she’s not available to handle it.

  47. Marche*

    Does anyone have much experience with ATS?

    I’m doing up a cover letter to a large, multinational company, and they use the same online application system as another company that I know for certain uses ATS. It’s not a definite, but for an entry-level position I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s being used. My worry is this: for this particular job ad, I’ve got experience doing everything the company wants, but I did it during school and not through work, so most of it doesn’t show up on my resume. I know I’m good at it – I regularly had classmates ask me for help with this or that, but because I did it for senior design projects and not on a work term, it’s on my cover letter and not my resume. I’m working to make sure my cover letters are well written, but if it isn’t even making it to a set of human eyes then it doesn’t do me much good.

    So I suppose my question has two parts: are cover letters AND resumes regularly scanned in ATS, or just resumes? Is there anything I can do to help my applications stand out in the ATS scan (apart from that white text trick, which I wouldn’t do in any case)?

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      Is there a way to feature this experience in the education section of your resume- like under ‘Relevant Coursework’ or ‘Study Abroad Experience’.. anything? I’d figure out a way to format your resume for this particular job that highlights those aspects of your history

      1. Marche*

        It’s possible, my resume is cutting pretty close to two pages. I don’t want to take off any of my work terms because there was applicable aspects in each that are good experience for this job (Work term A might have required reviewing teapot standards, work term B involved x diagrams, that sort of thing). My senior design project featured a lot of the tasks and duties mentioned though, which I’ve described in my cover letter, though maybe I can touch on it in my resume too.

  48. Second of her name*

    My name is too common! There are now 3 people with the same name (let’s say Jennifer A., B., and C. by seniority) in my small company. Jennifer A. is in the main office, and I’m in the branch office, with Jennifer C. and less than 10 other people. None of us use nicknames. The current solution is just to call us Jennifer A/B/C.

    Now that Jennifer C. is here, we have been under slight pressure to take nicknames, especially since we have the same position and will likely be on the same teams. I’m holding firm. My name is common, but it’s mine. I don’t consider its nicknames to be very professional. I’ve also built up a strong reputation in my field, and even give a few media interviews a year at this point in my career.

    Any advice on keeping my name and keeping the confusion down?

    1. orchidsandtea*

      If you’re willing to add your middle name, you could be Jennifer Rose, or you could go by your surname, which might seem more professional. But I agree, it’s your name. If one of the others wants to become Jenna or Jenny, that’s their prerogative. You don’t need to budge on this.

    2. Caroline*

      We have this problem in my office! It’s actually a big joke that they only take resumes from people named “Jennifer.”

      But we find that using the last name to differentiate is perfectly fine. So, “Hey, can you give this to Jennifer?” “Oh, which one?” “Sorry–Jennifer Smith!”

    3. just an idea*

      Do any of you have a middle name? So one can be Jennifer Jane, another Jennifer Mary and the last Jennifer Dora?

    4. Jules the First*

      I once had a team (of 6!) entirely staffed with Andys. The client looked a little confused when we introduced everyone at the first meeting – I joked that he’d asked for our “A-team” and that’s what he’d gotten – but once the team settled in it was fine because everyone had quite specific tasks, so people got used to asking for the project manager or project leader instead of just Andy. Our reception team was briefed to get a reason for calling from anyone who asked for an Andy, so it was fairly straightforward to route people in the right direction. Stick it out, gently correcting people who try to impose a nickname on you, and you should be fine.

    5. bopper*

      Start signing your emails Jennifer B.

      If someone calls you Jen, then just say “I go by Jennifer…but you can call me Jennifer B if you like.”

    6. Ultraviolet*

      I’d hold firm too! I’ve had this problem before, and in my experience, other people seriously overestimate how much confusion there will be and how onerous it is to always include someone’s last name/initial.

      It depends on your situation, but I think the best way to minimize confusion is to clarify soon that no one will be changing their name, so that people stop trying to make “Jen” catch on and can start letting “Jennifer A/B/C ” sink in. One possibility is to privately contact the other two, tell them you won’t be adopting a nickname, and ask whether they like “Jennifer A/B/C” or prefer another solution. Then whenever any of you gets some of the pressure to use nicknames, say “We’ve discussed it together and none of us will be using nicknames. I suggest sticking with Jennifer A/B/C.” (Or whatever the outcome of the discussion is.)

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      Point out that nicknames aren’t really going to clear things up the way they think they will. If I’m used to you being Jennifer B, and suddenly someone refers to Jen or Jenny, I’m not going to remember she’s you now. In fact, if anyone is going to adopt a nickname, it should be the newest Jennifer.

    8. NW Mossy*

      My direct boss and I have the same first name, so I hear you! We do get some misdirected emails and/or people being confused about which of us is responsible for which team, but we are used to it and work through it pretty easily. Most people in the organization have figured out that there are two of us and direct accordingly.

      One thing that really helps is being sure to use your full name when introducing yourself to people for the first time, and you can even say “I’m Jennifer Armageddon; you may meet/have met Jennifer Bedlam and Jennifer Catastrophe already!” to explain why. Deploying the full email signature with your full name, address, and title also helps mark you out from your same-name cohort.

      1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

        At my last job, I, my boss, our contact in Germany and our contact in Switzerland all had the same name, and only one of us spelled it differently. Our sales manager once commented on an email, “There are entirely to many Lxxxx’s on this email trail – I’m so confused!”

    9. Spoonie*

      I have two “Jennifers” on my team. Our solution is to use Jennifer LastNameInitial. For example, you could become Jennifer S instead of using the seniority order — that allows people when using our office directory to figure out *which* Jennifer, instead of having to know the hierarchy. As the office newbie, I am grateful that I don’t have to know and keep track of all the inner workings (I’m doing fantastic to remember a name to start with!). I just have to remember which initial to use.

    10. CAA*

      I’m Cathy, and I’ve always routinely gotten email for coworkers named Catherine, Kathryn, Kathleen, Kathy, Kate and every other variation starting with C or K. This even happens when I’m the only Cathy in the entire online address book, so I feel pretty secure in stating that even if you adopt nicknames, it will not help to avoid the confusion at all.

      Use your real first names and last names and just accept that many of the people you deal with are going to screw this up repeatedly and send email to the wrong Jennifer. Get familiar with what the others work on so you can recognize when you’ve received something that was for one of them, then be prompt about forwarding items to the right person along with a message to the sender that says “I think you meant this for Jennifer Jones instead of me.”

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I worked with 3 “Jennifers” and the worst part was that I had 2 Jennifer Bs to contend with!

    11. Wakeen Teapots, Ltd.*

      We have so many Jennifer’s and Lauren’s and it’s no big deal. I think nicknames would confuse the matter.

      The Jennifer’s all go by Jen so we have Jen C, Jen E, Jen L, and then when we got two Jen S, the Jen S morphed into Jen Smith and Jen Summers. Lauren’s the same altho no overlapping last initials at the moment.

      Once you get used to always using the last initial or name, it’s no different from Bobby Sue. And! It’s the person’s actual name.

    12. TootsNYC*

      I would say, use that last initial, literally.

      Be “Jennifer B” when it matters. And just “Jennifer” when there’s no risk of confusion.

      I have ended up, accidentally, going by initials sometimes, but only in the most casual of situations at work. Someone would say, “Hand this to RAB, would you?” Or, since my first name is a two-parter, like “Rebecca Ann,” people have said, “Hand this to RA.”

      That might be a way to have a nickname that actually -doesn’t- get used outside your actual unit.

    13. AliceBD*

      This seems a little odd to me that you’re getting pressure to have nicknames. In a 100-person office we have two high-level workers named John who work on things together regularly. They are both referred to as JohnLastName most of the time, so their first name and their last names become one word (such as JohnDoe and JohnBrown). We also have two women who go by the same first name and have the same last name (with slightly different spellings), again in the same department and with desks just a few feet from each other; let’s say it’s Jane Smith and Jane Smythe. Jane Smith has been with the company 30+ years and Jane Smythe 3ish years. In speech if we need to differentiate we called them “the original Jane Smith” and “other Jane Smythe”. It’s easier in email; our email addresses are our full names, not nicknames, and Jane Smythe’s middle name is Jane and real first name is Susan, so the emails are jane.smith@company.com and susan.jane.smythe@company.com.

      Growing up in school and at summer camp we had multiple students with the same name or nickname (there were 6 of us with my nickname at a 120 person summer camp one summer) and everyone was easily differentiated without being forced into nicknames, usually just by some variation of using their last name. And all of the differentiation came naturally from people seeking to communicate. I think your office is misguided for asking you to come up with nicknames and everyone can just use their full names.

      TL;DR Why nicknames and not just using last names? IME in situations like this people just naturally start using last names to differentiate and there’s no confusion and no asking you to randomly add a nickname on.

      (FWIW I fully support you keeping your name. I have stopped going by my nickname at work because my nickname led to people calling me by a different first name. I go by my first name or my nickname, not by a different first name that sounds similar to my nickname. I was fed up with people getting it wrong so I have just decided I am nickname in personal life and first name in professional life.)

  49. Bianca*

    Several years ago I (kind of reluctantly) agreed to be on a committee here at my office dedicated to implementing programs to provide “staff recognition.”

    I hate, HATE being on this committee. One of the reasons why is that somehow, I just don’t agree with anything everyone else seems to think is a great idea. The programs we’ve implemented are lame, in my opinion. I find that I am embarrassed anytime my name is listed as a member of the committee, and I feel like a lot of people in the office feel that the programs are lame, although no one wants to come out and say it to my face. Other members of the committee are really happy with the programs and claim they’ve heard positive feedback.

    I can’t decide if I should just resign from the committee, or try harder to have my voice heard. I always seem to be overruled when it comes to discussing ideas for programs, and I think it may boil down to a difference in personality–everyone feels “recognized” or “appreciated” in different ways, and the ways that I would feel so are not the same as the ways that others on the committee would feel. I don’t want to insult their ideas or call them lame outright, but I also don’t like feeling ashamed of my work.

    Any advice? I’m so frustrated with this.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Is there a term limit to the committee. I presume not, else maybe you would stick it out.
      It sounds like you do voice your opinion and are not heard.
      Does it take a lot of time? Could you “gracefully step down” to concentrate more on “X”?
      Or just resign, without explanation. (Is there someone else interested in joining)
      Is a set number people needed?
      Will it hurt your professional reputation to step down/resign?
      I was once on annual banquet committee once…felt the same way. (Although to be fair, the banquet ended up being less lame than I expected it, when it actually happened.) But I certainly didn’t volunteer to be on that committee the next year.

      1. CM*

        Me too, with a minimum of drama — “Hey, I’ve been involved with this committee now for 3 years, and I’d like to resign from the committee.” If asked why, you can just say you feel you’ve put your time in and would now like to focus on other things.

        1. Bianca*

          Thanks for these perspectives. I’ve been trying to figure out a way not to feel guilty about this, but I have been on this committee for a very long time.

          I just feel bad because they can barely scrape up people to be on these committees.

          1. NoMoreMrFixit*

            Not your problem. You put in some serious time and want to walk away now. Phrase it as giving others a chance to contribute rather than you want out. That way you exit gracefully and opens up a hunt for a replacement. Which isn’t your problem.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Why not ask them to send out a survey on how their staff recognition program is being received?

      There has be some type of checks and balances. Recognition programs should motivate people, improve employee retention and in general help the company meet its goals.
      So. I would ask about these things, on the off chance I am wrong. (I don’t think you are wrong, bear with me here.) Ask how successful the program is in helping the company motivate and retain good employees and helping the company meet it’s goals. IDEALLY, getting this answer would involve inputs from the higher ups.

      There is more than one way to make a point. If we can’t be heard by plainly stating our concerns then sometimes we can get heard by asking well framed questions.

      Look, no one wants to work in this committee for a reason. This is another talking point. Why is it so hard to find people to fill out this committee?

      Small consolation, I have found myself in spots where I was embarrassed by the group work. The only thing we can control is how we handle ourselves inside the group. We cannot control what the outputs are nor how others respond to those outputs. It sounds like you do have some residual concerns for the committee even though you have one foot out the committee’s door. Give it one last shot using a different technique for delivering the same message. If you still do not get results, then quit the committee.

  50. Anonish*

    Details are trickling in about our mandatory floor retreat at the end of the month. (The floor is about 80 people although my team is only about 10.) Things I know so far: it is three days and two nights, a bus ride will be provided to a destination about three hours away, the bus ride is MANDATORY (we need a manager’s permission and some kind of extenuating circumstance to drive ourselves), one of the days will include our choice of excursions, and sharing a king-size bed is OPT-OUT. There are only three women on my team and the other two are really good friends and will request to be roommates, so I will certainly have to share with someone I don’t know.

    I checked the “No, I am absolutely not comfortable with sharing a bed” option on the survey so fast that I think my mouse was smoking. If I can get out of the bus ride I think the whole thing might be manageable but honestly, the idea of a 3-4 hour bus ride with a group of loud people and then sharing a room (never mind a bed) with a total stranger for three days is pretty much my idea of hell on earth.

    1. bopper*

      What don’t you like about the bus ride?
      Will they put a movie on?
      Will it just be people chatting?
      You could say “Do you mind if I take the window seat? Somethign about busses just puts me to sleep. ” then put your earbuds in, close your eyes, and ignore everyone.
      Or, schedule an medical appt so that you need to drive yourself. “Boss, I just wanted to let you know I will be a little late to the retreat…I have a medical appt I have to take and that is the only time they can fit me in…but if I drive myself I will only be 1 hour late!”

      1. Rebecca*

        Ugh, bus rides! If it was a real charter bus, I guess that wouldn’t be so bad. BUT. At my last job, they dragged us to a meeting in another state. A stupid meeting that we could have easily seen in a teleconference. So, I spent 8 hours on a bus to attend a meeting that lasted a few hours.

        Oh, and it wasn’t a full sized charter bus. It was a “limo bus”, with all the shock absorbing qualities of a buckboard wagon. The ride was so rough we couldn’t read, play games on our phones, nothing – just concentrated on not throwing up. I was so sore for two days after I had to take Advil. It was awful.

        I’ll never, ever do that again. It will be a charter bus or I’ll drive myself.

        1. Emac*

          Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. The bus ride might be annoying, but my first thought would be that I want to have my car just in case I have to escape for a little bit. And if you’re somewhere that it’s warm now, you’d have a place to sleep as a last resort if you absolutely can’t stand the person you’re sharing with!

          To get out of taking the bus, you could say that you get motion sick unless you’re the one driving (which is a thing).

    2. SCAnonabrarian*

      I have to say, there’s something really useful about a conveniently-timed medical checkup that can’t be rescheduled. :)

    4. CM*

      Ugh, at least sharing the bed is an option. Any chance you can get others on your team or your floor to complain about this whole thing as a group? If you can privately talk to people and drum up enough opposition, you can approach your manager(s) together and express your concerns.

    5. Dawn*

      Share a bed.

      With a co-worker.

      Are you *bleeping* KIDDING ME??????

      Half the time I don’t like sharing a bed WITH MY OWN SPOUSE.

      1. Dawn*

        OK so that’s out of the system…

        I definitely think an organized group pushback would be useful here, as suggested by other commenters. I’m sure you’re not the only person absolutely dreading this… in fact I can think of very few people who would be happy about going to this!

        1. Anonish*

          Weirdly enough, everyone seems fine with it! It seems like it’s a pretty accepted part of the culture here. I’m the newest person on the team (under a year) so I don’t have a lot of standing. I’m just silently adding it to the list of Reasons This May Not Be the Place for Me. (It’s not the only item.)

      2. RVA Cat*

        Ummm sharing a bed is bad enough, but is the Company Full of Bees going to make male and female co-workers share a bed if there’s an uneven ratio? Hello lawsuit….

        1. Pineapple Incident*

          Seconded. For a myriad of reasons, this is a stinking mess of an idea and it should die.

    8. officebitch*

      This sounds like my nightmare. You should definitely, definitely have a last-minute medical emergency

    9. Blue Birds Fly*

      I always get a migraine the day after riding on a bus for several hours. I think it is possibly from diesel exhaust leaking inside. Maybe you would be affected like this, and, in addition to the motion sickness, you could say how useless you would be the next day. And no way would I want to share a room, much less a bed!

    10. New Window*

      sharing a king-size bed is OPT-OUT.
      Do our posts go into moderation when they contain strings of consecutive swear words? I’ll avoid doing that just in case.

      I had to share a bed with a coworker once. Anyone who thinks that it is reasonable to expect you to share a friggin BED with a COWORKER is not reasonable and is operating from a mindset that is abnormal. Seeing a coworker in pajamas, being kicked by them while sleeping, and hearing them snore is much more likely to lead to a negative working relationship.

      Since you’re new, you may not have any leverage to do much more than opt out of that BS bed sharing arrangement (WTF?!). But find an urgent medical appointment, or point out how susceptible you are to car sickness, heck, go out and catch an actual cold that will leave you bedridden that weekend. At least, these are things that I personally would rather do than go to a retreat that sounds like a more dreadful way to spend a weekend than chugging cold medicine against throbbing sinuses and excruciatingly sore throats. Feel free to ignore some or all of these recommendations as you see fit.

  51. Abigael*

    I applied for a job last week at a university. This week, I received an email from my job-search list-serve saying the university had another opening at a different campus. It’s basically the exact same job, just a different campus and a slightly different title (the job descriptions are identical). Should I apply for this second position, or assume that my first application will be considered for either campus? Secondly, if I DO reapply, should I use exactly the same application materials? Would it be weird if I wrote a different cover letter and/or edited my resume?

    1. Caroline*

      If it is a large university, it is extremely unlikely that the same person would review the application. In my experience, the online application will get funneled to the specific hiring manager, which is unlikely to be the same person, especially at a different campus. The system will still show you applied for both, so it won’t be a secret, but if it is basically the exact same job, I can’t see that they would hold it against you for applying to both, as long as you are not inundating them with applications for lots of jobs.

      It is extremely unlikely, in my experience, that your application would automatically be considered at the other job.

      You should change your cover letter to the extent that you need to to make it clear you read and are responding to each listing–you should mention the specific office/school the job is in, etc. The content can pretty much be the same.

    2. R.*

      Definitely reapply and don’t assume your first application would be shared. University bureaucracy is notoriously bad, and I wouldn’t expect the campuses to coordinate hiring. If the job description is *exactly* the same, yeah, I guess I’d use the same application and cover letter.

    3. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Reapply. Having worked in a university I found your application is considered only for the specific job you applied for. If 3 jobs come up you are interested in you have to apply to all 3. And be patient. Hiring in post secondary is slow for staff and downright glacier-like for faculty.

    4. Chaordic One*

      Yes, reapply. When I worked in HR I NEVER ran into a situation where someone was hired for a particular position based on an application for a previous position. You really need to to apply for the second position as if you were applying from scratch. If you want to write a different cover letter and/or update and edit your resume and application, then please do so. It’s not essential, but it wouldn’t hurt.

  52. Junior Dev*

    How do you deal with the “3pm slump”? I always get really tired in the afternoon. We have sit/stand desks and standing for half an hour helps somewhat but I still start to crash and burn around that time.

    1. orchidsandtea*

      I have to eat fat. Heavy cream in my tea, cheese, greek yogurt, olives, something. Also cold water, a little walk, and a 15 minute break to just rest my brain.

    2. Emily*

      Do you have coffee readily available at your office? If so, I’d start with that! One thing I like to do is get up and walk around the office for 5-10 minutes, or walk a couple laps around the building if it’s nice outside (if that’s something you’re able to do!)

    6. LQ*

      Walk. I hit my afternoon blah and go for a walk. I’m so very glad I work in a place that has space I can get “out” (thank you skyways!) and walk, but on very busy days I’ll just go and see the people I need to talk to in person and make laps around the building that way. (It’s very much our culture to do that, so ‘a walk’ encourages me, as a not in person-er to do it.)

    7. CM*

      YMMV, but when I eat salad for lunch, I don’t get the afternoon crash. Starchy and heavy/greasy foods for lunch, like pizza or sandwiches = afternoon crash.

    8. Schmitt*

      Seconding the others re: eating lighter for lunch and something more substantial when it hits.

      Wanted to add, though, that I had this problem for years at my old job. At my new job, we are supposed to take 1 hour lunches, and if I am busy or want to leave early and skimp that down to half an hour, bam, crash. I wouldn’t have wanted to believe it but I’m way more productive with an hour break.

      1. Anonenony*

        Thirding the lighter lunch, reducing carbs suggestions, but also, sometimes I just give in to the slump. Set a timer to ten minutes and close my eyes (at my desk or in the break room depending on where I have more chance of privacy.) I would call it meditation if it were noticed. A brief rest, followed by some of the other suggestions, cold water, coffee, a brisk walk. This is similar to my techniques if I get sleepy while driving long distances. If the eyes really want to close/need a rest, let them. (obv after safely stopping the car) Ten minutes down time, then jog around the car three times, potty break, face splash, caffeinate, and resume.

        1. Pseudo-Fed*

          I’ve done this when driving semi-long distances, especially at night. When “my head grew heavy and my sight grew dim,” I’d pull off and find a parking lot somewhere. Put the seat back and close my eyes and not worry about the time. Usually I’d wake up after five minutes or so, and it was hugely helpful. I’d be refreshed and rejuvenated, and continue the trip. Lately I’ve done the same at work, and it’s just as helpful.

          1. Anonenony*

            My go-to method for staying-awake driving: two donut holes every fifteen minutes, one diet Pepsi every ninety minutes, one rest stop every ninety minutes. Nice balance of sugar, fat, and caffeine. Takes a few hours to come down when you reach your destination, though.

    9. Emi.*

      I drink either something caffeinated or cold water and take a lap around my floor. For when I can’t avoid it, though, I keep a list of tasks that I can do when I’m brain-fried. If I switch to doing something simple, at least I’m not just staring at a complicated task, not getting anywhere.

    10. MegKnits*

      Usually my 3pm wall (as I call it) is from what I had with lunch. Usually a lot of food, or a lot of ‘carby’ food makes me want to curl up under my desk.
      FYI – Coffee doesn’t work for me (the caffiene would have me up until 3am) but a hot beverage (tea, hot chocolate) usually helps. As does cold water.

    11. Elizabeth West*

      3 pm was one of my stair-climb times at Exjob. 11 am and / or 3 pm, except after the department merge, people had a habit of dumping stuff on me around that time. It would help me wake up a bit just to get away from my desk for a few minutes, even if I didn’t have time to run stairs.

    12. Pipes32*

      The reason you’ve got the slump is essentially your insulin crashing and burning.

      Insulin is produced whenever you eat anything, but it spikes highest when you eat carbs. The simpler the carb, the higher it will spike. (So, insulin will spike for both brown rice and candy bars, but the candy will spike it harder and faster.)

      As your insulin drops, you’ll feel hungry, sleepy, or both. So, try eating mostly protein & fat for your lunches.

      (I cut nearly all carbs out of my life and not only went from a need-a-nap-every-day kind of person to almost never needing / wanting one, but I also transformed into a morning person (!) and dropped weight like the Biggest Loser. But it’s an extreme step for sure. Just cutting back on lunchtime carbs should do you fine.)

  53. Stability vs. challenge?*

    I guess I’m looking for advice on how to balance stability vs. challenge in the job world. I left a comfortable, good, stable job for a more challenging, prestigious, mission-oriented job a few months ago, and now it’s *so* challenging (new job is a tiny nonprofit with all the instability/management issues that come with that) that I’m having second thoughts. My old boss is trying to recruit me back, and I’m tempted. She was a great boss, and my new one is not. I’m also leaning toward having a kid soon, and new job isn’t nearly as family-friendly. But I’d gotten really bored at the old one after six years, and I doubt that will have changed if I go back. At least I’m learning and growing here — but there’s also more stress, uncertainty, and just hard stuff in general, and I sometimes dread going to work (which I never did at the old place). Has anyone else faced this dilemma?

    1. Anna*

      Could you talk to your old boss about why you decided to move on in the first place and see if there’s anything that can be done so you have those opportunities for growth and challenges in the old role? It’s possible that you did need to move on from your old job, but this wasn’t the exact right move. There’s no harm in trying again later.

      1. bopper*

        Definitely nothing wrong with having a discussion with your old boss about growth opportunities…and if you do want to have a kid then stability is great!

      2. R.*

        I definitely could talk to her. I guess I’m already pretty sure, though, that I wouldn’t have very much opportunities for growth or challenges in the old role. I was there for six years and really got to a place of feeling I had grown all I could there. It was still a good job; I just wasn’t growing anymore. That was the whole reason for leaving. I think I’m just tempted by the old job because it would be comfortable, and I know and like the people there, whereas my current place is filled with uncertainty. If I do become a parent and this job proves incompatible with it, then I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it, I suppose…

    2. bb-great*

      I think there are times in our lives when we’re looking for challenge, and times when we’re looking for stability. I think especially when becoming a new parent, having a “boring” job may not be the worst thing in the world.

      1. R.*

        Definitely true. But I’m thinking back to when I read Lean In (which I had mixed feelings about) and Sheryl Sandberg cautioned women not to “leave before you leave.” Maybe it would be foolish to take a step back in my career for hypothetical future kids who don’t yet exist.

    3. Champagne_Dreams*

      You’ve only been in the new job for a few months. You’re right in the sweet spot of “Oh no, it’s too much, I’m overwhelmed, I can’t handle it”. You’ve hit that exact spot in a challenging job where you’re starting to grasp the full scope of the job and everything that you don’t yet know comfortably. You’ve hit the freak-out spot in the job trajectory. But that’s just the pain of the growth. At the year mark, I’ll bet you feel completely differently.

      If you’re a person who’s made miserable by stagnation and who requires growth to feel truly fulfilled in your work, I’d stay put. (I am just like that, and once made that decision to go back to the stagnant job for what I thought were good personal reasons. Then I had to go to therapy to deal with my resulting depression.)

  54. Guy changing Career*

    Hi, I am currently in a big career change situation. I thought I wanted to do research, but after a year of working in a research industry, it’s not going anywhere. I am currently looking in Biotechnology.
    Is anyone able to give me any advice on Biotech? Job opportunities? Salary? etc.
    Google wasn’t very helpful. It kept leading me to those generic articles. I

    Thank you.

    1. notfunny.*

      What do you want to do, within biotechnology? There are lots of different kinds of work and varying salaries so more information might help people share their thoughts!

  55. Willow*

    Does anyone have any tips for looking less like a student or intern in an office with a very casual dress code? I’m in my mid-twenties and people often assume I’m in college (not at work, but while I’m dressed in my work clothes). I can’t dress like women above me because I report directly to the male CEO (he wears faded jeans and sweatshirts). I’ve tried wearing blazers and nicer accessories, but I’m worried I’ll stand out as too “fancy” or people will think I have an interview.

    1. Lindsey*

      I’d suggest investing in nicer pieces – you can tell when jeans cost $20 vs. $200. Blazers don’t make sense for a lot of offices, but if you like wearing one, I find rolling up the sleeves, or in an off-beat color helps tone it down.

      1. LadyKelvin*

        I agree on the advice with the blazers, I have a couple in off-beat colors and a couple that are 3/4 length sleeves that look business-y without looking stuffy. One is dark blue with white embroidered spots, one is 3/4 length sleeve, and I wear something colorful underneath so I look classy and fashionable but not high fashion which would look out of place where I work. Plus I’m always cold so I have a coat of some kind on year round, sweater, blazer, etc.

    2. Leatherwings*

      I look young for my age also working in casual offices and have found success with plain slacks (as opposed to jeans) and nicer, more conservative blouses (I get a lot of Nordstrom Rack/TJ Maxx type stuff – discount mid-level clothes) and cardigans/sweaters when it’s cold and comfy shoes (like Keds) or boots. That strikes a balance between fancy and “going to the student union for coffee”

    4. Rex*

      As others have said, you can keep wearing casual clothing, but with better attention to quality and fit of the clothes.

      You can also wear nicer blouses with jeans, or a decent cardigan, and it’s still pretty casual

      Big, funky jewelry, assuming it’s to your taste.

      Paying a higher degree of attention to grooming and making a polished appearance. This can be subtle, but helps take you out of the “college student” subconscious zone.

    5. Jules the First*

      Seconding the more expensive pieces – you don’t need to plaster yourself with designer logos, but more expensive pieces will show. Also try for tailored rather than fitted shapes.

      Otherwise, think colour, texture, and pattern – look for bold or unusual colours, interesting textures and patterns in the fabrics you choose, and unexpected shapes. You may find the principles of a capsule wardrobe help – pick a couple of signature colours, layer pieces to create interest and variety. Try pairing a dressier top with light wash jeans and sneakers, or a casual tee with dark jeans and funky heels.

    6. NW Mossy*

      Accessories FTW! Etsy is a great source of inexpensive pieces that instantly elevate a casual look into something that looks intentional and polished. I’m deploying that exact script today, in fact – a soft sweater and jeans paired with a chunky necklace of faux purple jewels. Since the necklace is obviously not “real” jewelry, it doesn’t come off as too fancy. A contrasting scarf can achieve a similar effect.

      1. Natalie*

        Accessories can work well the other way, too – look more “grownup” by dressing slightly more formally, in a blazer and jeans for example. And then dress that outfit back down to casual with accessories.

    7. NaoNao*

      Oh fashion advice! My favorite of the open thread topics!
      I think your key word here is “intentional”.
      So: skinny jeans and fancy sneakers with a crisp white button down and a statement jewelry piece is youthful and casual but polished and intentional. Those fancy sneakers can be the “sneakerheads” bulky funky type or the sleek bowling shoe hybrid type. Statement jewelry could be an oversized watch or it could be a pair of really cool handmade earrings.
      Intentional means that it’s well thought out. It makes a statement about who you are. It matches your lifestyle, personal style, body type, and profession. It’s not something you can “throw on” nor is it something someone else could wear in quite the same way. So easy, right? :/ Heh.
      Things that take a wardrobe up a notch:
      An extremely high grade, low-visible- label handbag or briefcase. All leather (or vegan equivalent), little hardware, no visible logo, simple lines. Like a Coach Bucket bag style.
      Excellent footwear. Somewhat substantial. So no Vans slip ons, no ballet flats, no strappy flat sandals, no Toms, etc. (I mean you CAN wear these but on days where you need or want to kick it up stay away). The shoe should have “presence” for lack of a better word. Like, an oxford, a loafer, an expensive “fancy” sneaker, a chunky platform, etc.
      Tights should be neutral colors like black, navy, tan, grey, or small fishnet. No more wild colored tights, sadly!
      Fitted, tailored clothing. Woven clothing. Oftentimes casual comes down to the fabric. Woven clothing (no stretch, basically) looks more formal than knit (which is tee shirt, stretch, leggings, maxi dresses, jersey, etc). So my rule is “One woven piece per outfit”. Once I grokked this, I felt like I “got” looking pulled together for work in a very casual environment.
      Basics with a twist. I have a blazer in jersey material. I have layering tees that are a cool watercolor painted effect. I have “slouchy” skinny jeans. and so on.
      If you’re on a budget, solid colors look more upscale than prints. Simple cuts look more upscale than fancy stuff. Neutrals look more upscale than loud, trendy colors.
      I stole this from “Wardrobe Oxygen”: “Manage your edges”. Your nails, shoes, bag, and hair should be polished. Simple, nail-art-free nails. Shoes on point, in perfect condition. Bag is a simple, well made bag with understated details. Hair is groomed, well-cut, and polished (I say as I am currently wearing a messy bun. But I’m a designer!).
      Keep trends to the edges of your look. One trendy piece per look. So a simple black sheath with a pair of pom pom accented strappy sandals works. Strappy sandals with a maxi dress and a waterfall cardigan and oversized hoops screams “It’s Margarita Time!” :)
      Where to shop:
      Budget:
      Nordstrom Rack
      Macy’s (INC, Bar III)
      Kohl’s (Vera Wang Simply Vera, Dana Buchman)
      Thrift stores (brands like Gap, Banana Republic, J Crew)
      Vintage or consignment stores for bags, sunglasses, shoes

      Mid:
      J Crew
      Banana Republic
      Nordstrom
      Ann Taylor
      Madewell
      Talbots

      Money is no object!
      Eileen Fisher
      Anthropologie for statement or “edge” pieces
      Designer sites like “The Real Real”
      Neiman Marcus
      Designer Consignment stores

    8. Yo Teach!*

      I have this problem! People always guess that I’m 20, but I’m more like 30, and I work in a very casual work environment but am itching to dress up more because I want to be taken seriously (I’m client-facing). I dealt with developing my own work uniform: black boot with a low heel, slim black pants or ultra black jeans, and a button down blouse. I buy trendy ones that fit my style on Amazon, H&M, even Target. Something about wearing a blouse buttoned up to the top has a more formal feel? I can absolutely tell a difference when I’m wearing that as opposed to jeans/t-shirt.

  56. Berry*

    What are your recommendations for where to do a phone interview in the middle of the work day? I work in a small office with no conference room and an open plan (so nowhere to use my phone in the office). I once did a phone interview outside but it was very windy/noisy and didn’t go well, so I’m not keen on repeating that. I was thinking about a nearby coffee shop but was also concerned about noise/talking on the phone in a coffee shop.

        2. officebitch*

          Is there any sort of park, bench, or outdoor nook you can walk to that’s not too close to your office? You can say you’re going out for some fresh air or a walk. Or say that you’re getting a coffee, and then actually get a coffee at the end of your interview. Or, if it’s OK in your workplace to take the occasional personal call, just discreetly leave—and if anyone asks, tell them you had to call your insurance company or something else harmless and boring.

    2. shep*

      Do you drive yourself? Sometimes I’ve done interviews in my car, and that’s gone pretty well. Very quiet, even if you need to turn it on for AC or heating purposes.

      I realize it’s a moot point if you take the bus or train, though. I hope it goes well regardless!

      1. zora*

        Or just another office building near by with a lobby that you know your coworkers won’t be going to?

        Any college buildings nearby? I work across the street from a small college, and I know their student lounges are open to the public.

      2. Berry*

        Hmm, there’s one hotel nearby but I work in a semi residential/warehouse area so I’m not sure how they’ll take a random person sitting in their lobby. I might check it out though, thanks.

        1. Callalily*

          A hotel would likely be perfect. Just sit in the lobby and take the call… nothing strange about waiting in a hotel lobby alone and they won’t interrupt you. If you ask they may be nice enough to let you pop into an empty conference room or their business area.

        2. Fiona the Lurker*

          No reason you couldn’t ask them if they’d mind you using their lobby to take a quiet phone call, though, is there? It’s difficult to imagine why they would object.

    4. another IT manager*

      I have a historic-type graveyard nearby that’s useful; there are also a couple of office buildings with quiet-ish lobbys if it’s raining.

      I might try the back corner of a CVS/Walgreens, depending on their music volume.

    5. Kai*

      If you use your headphone while on the call, that should help with any noise in the coffee shop if you choose that. I’ve used that technique before in a similar setting and it worked pretty well. Do a test call with a friend first to get your volume where you want it.

    6. Callalily*

      I know your pain – I had to pre-interview in our break room and had to make it sound like I was talking to my accountant about an appointment.

      In a coffee shop is better than outside. Better than that you may find a nearby store (general retail type) or large office to take your call. So for instance you can go into a boutique and just explain you need to make a call (and not scoping to steal) or pop into a bank/building lobby that is publicly accessible yet not too loud… just stay out of washrooms because you don’t want a sudden flush/knocking.

  57. Mags*

    A small to mid-sized company that I previously worked for has since been bought out by a large 10,000+ employee company. Fast forward 7 years…I am updating my resume and would like to apply with this large company (in a totally different part of the US). How should I reflect this on my resume?

    Small Company (now Big Company) dates of employment
    Big Company (previously small company) dates of employment

    neither and just leave it as small company

    2. Dawn*

      When you worked there it was Small Company, so I’d definitely keep that name first and foremost on your Resume. I like “Small Company (purchased by Big Company in YEAR), 2005-2008”

  58. Lindsey*

    I got a raise a year ago when I joined the company from a contractor to a full-time employee. They told me that I had to get a special exception for what I wanted to be paid at my level, but they like me so much they were willing to do it (woohoo!). I’m well-compensated for my work, and am the top performer in my department, but I’m not sure if it makes sense to make the case for a raise again.
    I already work from home, and there’s no flexibility on vacation time, so I’m not sure what else I could ask, but I want to be recognized for the awesome job I’m doing. There’s also not a level above me that I could be promoted to. Thoughts?

  59. Coffee or Tea*

    Does anyone have advice for how to start a women’s professional group? I live in a rural area and at my yearly review I was encouraged to network more. Since I work in a male dominated field I thought it would be nice to start connecting with other women professionals in the area. Should I start inviting women to a breakfast or lunch and see if it organically takes off or try to create something more formal off the bat? Is there anything else I should think about before starting this group?

    2. AndersonDarling*

      This is so tough. I while back I tried out a few women’s networking groups and it was just a bunch of women trying to sell me beauty products, juice cleansers, and other pyramid scheme products. Not only do you need to find a good core group of professionals to drive a networking group, you need to be able to keep the sales folks out. So I like the idea of inviting women to meals and discussing the group concept and seeing where it goes.

    3. bopper*

      What about a book club on professional topics? Would that keep out the sales people?
      Are there any nationwide women’s clubs you could create a local chapter? Like if you were an engineer there would be the Society of Women Engineers?

    4. Rex*

      Pull together 2 or 3 of your favorite women, and throw the idea of a group out to them. This sort of thing works better if you’re not the only one driving it.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      This is so hard to do. I cannot emphasize enough how hard. I’ve been part of launching an internal women’s group for the past year, and it is hard to get people involved.

      I would start with inviting a handful of people you already know for breakfast or lunch and measure the interest level. If you can organically grow to “X” size, there are national groups that you could look at starting a chapter of, or you could start from the ground up to formalize your own group, but I wouldn’t do that until you really get a strong interest and attendance. Maybe you have a regular monthly breakfast meet-up that grows from 3 to 6 to 15, then think about the direction you want to take it.

      1. Coffee or Tea*

        what are some of the hurdles you’re running into in getting people involved? The only one I can think of right now is timing. The professional women I know fall into two groups: 1) empty nesters or 2) young moms, so ideal meeting times are going to be different for both. But I am interested in knowing what other issues I will face.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          People like to attend events, but they don’t want to volunteer to lead anything. Starting out this shouldn’t be an issue–you meet for coffee, you talk and introduce yourselves, but as you formalize it may be a problem. You’ll want your meetings to have objectives, and people will need to run the meetings, etc.

          In my group, there are about 15 people you can count on out of 250 women. I’m not even talking about a commitment to be a chairperson for a year, just simply someone to show up for two hrs and talk to some elementary girls about STEM careers. (Service is part of our mission.) The same core group is overburdened, while the others get the benefit of the fun things we do and the work we do with the executive initiatives. Similarly, my spouse is current president of a BNI professional networking group of about 30 people. He has the same issues…once you make things formal, prepare to twist arms to get a volunteer secretary/treasurer.

          The other issue I’m sad to have to mention is that we have had issues with women on the leadership team getting along. Someone has been chronically not doing their [volunteer] job and it has affected the group. Someone has had to tell her this isn’t acceptable, and she takes it personally, started trash talking that it was all a personal conflict, etc. You have to have ways to tell people to leave the group if someone becomes a problem, and that’s awkward because of the mission of the group is typically about being inclusive.

    6. LQ*

      I think it depends on how rural. If you are in a town with more than a few thousand people I think that invite a couple women out and ask what they think about starting something. If you find your core 3 people you can go a long way and in that way go the direction that makes sense for the group. So inviting those people and saying, “I was thinking about creating this, would you be on board to be part of it?” Meet up and other tools can be used to help grow.

      I’d also say how about joining a professional association, even if it is a national group they may have local chapters, or the tools to help you develop local chapters.

    7. Coffee or Tea*

      Thanks for all the comments, I really appreciate it!

      I would ideally like to stay away from an industry specific group. For example, if I were to start a Women’s group for my industry there would only be 4 of us in the entire county. I do like the book club idea. I’m meeting with a few women next week so maybe I’ll broach the topic and see if anyone is interested in either the book club or lunch idea.

  60. Gene*

    One reason so many fields are male dominated is that women just don’t apply. We recently recruited for Operator In Training, the entry level for water and wastewater treatment plant operations and maintenance. Out of about 200 applications, fewer than 25 were women. One of them just started a couple of weeks ago. So we now have 4 women out of about 40 employees at this plant; a new OIT, a Lab Analyst, an Admin person, and the Plant Manager.

    As it is entry level, the requirements aren’t all that difficult:

    Requires a high school diploma or equivalent, and a minimum of two years of college-level coursework or equivalent technical training in chemistry, biology, engineering, environmental science or a related field. Relevant work experience in these areas may substitute for the college-level educational requirements. A Bachelor of Science degree in chemistry, biology, engineering, environmental science or related technical degree is highly desirable.

    The only thing that would restrict smaller people, male and female, from applying is the requirement to be able to lift and carry 75 pounds.

    If you know someone who wants one of the most secure jobs in the world and doesn’t want to be behind a desk all day or doing customer service, encourage her to look into this field. So long as people poop, we’ll need operators. Most times it’s civil service, so they won’t get rich, but the benefits are usually decent.

    The only way to turn around fields that are male dominated is to hire more women into them. But we can’t do that if women don’t apply.

    1. Leatherwings*

      I know people will disagree with me, but the whole “women and minorities don’t apply” thing is largely a fallacy – it has to do with who and where you’re reaching out. Are you advertising your roles in a variety of places? Explicitly mentioning diversity in the posting? Making overtures to women’s networking groups? There are ways to do this, but companies DO need to be proactive about it. Shrugging their shoulders and saying “we can’t help that only white men apply” is just not a real answer.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        In this case, Gene provided the stats that few women applied, but I agree with your idea. I wouldn’t apply for a stereotypical man’s job because I would assume I would be ostracized by the male workforce. If there was a blurb in the job ad encouraging women to apply, then it would signal that the company is at least trying to integrate diversity into their workforce.

        1. Kelly L.*

          Well, though, I think Leatherwings was suggesting placing the ad in places more women would see it, and then more might apply.

          1. Leatherwings*

            Exactly. I’m not saying that Gene isn’t telling the truth about the applicant pool for this job, but I am suggesting that Gene’s workplace can and needs to do more to encourage women to apply.

          2. Elsajeni*

            Right, or making changes to the way the ad is phrased — I saw an interesting article recently about gender disparities in tech and how companies are trying to address them; I can’t find the link again, I’m afraid, but one thing I found surprising was that there’s research showing that ads that use the word “ninja” get significantly fewer applications from women than ads that describe the position in more neutral/standard language. Obviously that’s a pretty specific example — I’m guessing Gene’s company’s ad did not refer to the position as “Wastewater Ninja” — but I’m sure there are similar phrasing issues in other industries that could make a surprising difference.

            1. periwinkle*

              I would totally apply to be a Wastewater Ninja; the implication is that I would use wastewater as my (extraordinarily effective) weapon of choice.

      2. Anna*

        This. It creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Women don’t apply because they aren’t being targeted in advertising, but then someone will justify not targeting women in advertising “because they just don’t apply.” I would look to see if there’s an organization specifically for women in trades in your area. Where I live has one and companies partner with them for training and to advertise jobs. It has helped increase diversity in a lot of male-dominated fields.

        1. Leatherwings*

          Yes! Or since it’s an entry level role, reaching out to local colleges and community colleges to place advertising where women and minorities will see it (like a department listserv or WGST bulletin board) will almost certainly draw more diverse applicants.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Nationally, the workforce of standard discipline engineers and designers (2- and 4- year degrees in mechanical, civil, electrical, and chemical) is comprised of 12% women. (BLS). So, actually your applicant rate was right on target. And kudos to your team for hiring a woman and working on bringing your ratio of women to men up closer to the national average.

      The ways that we can truly change the mix and bring more women into male-dominated fields is to focus on retaining the women we do have by our workplace policies and focusing on outreach to young women. Encourage women to take those science courses you require for your positions. Work with local high schools and votechs to speak with their students, invite them on tours, etc. Sponsor things like Introduce a Girl to Engineering Day and other local Women in STEM programs.

      Lastly, please consider that it’s been demonstrated that women tend to apply for jobs that they meet or exceed 100% of the qualifications for. Men will apply with a much lower fit with the job requirements (maybe 60%, but I don’t have the stat committed to memory). I’d be interested to see your applicant data. Were you getting male applicants with diplomas and a couple community college science courses, while your female applicants had BS degrees?

      1. jamlady*

        “The ways that we can truly change the mix and bring more women into male-dominated fields is to focus on retaining the women we do have by our workplace policies…”

        Thank you! And this covers many things, but I’m struggling with the following:

        I work in a STEM field dominated by men and I freak out on the regular that I never work for companies with Maternity Leave policies (or any clear understanding of anything related to pregnant women in the workforce). We just talked about pushing kids out another few years because of this. I love what I do but I’m seriously considering changing industries because I don’t feel like I can keep moving forward once I’m seen as a mother.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      The 75 lb requirement is also pretty limiting, actually. What do you mean “lift”? Based on female strength standards, a deadlift starting weight would be around 75 lbs for a beginner 130 lb woman. That’s just lifting a bar off the ground. For a power clean, a beginner cleaning 75 lbs. would be expected to be a 190 lb woman.

      I’m 5’4″ 120 lbs and I might be put off from applying for this.

      1. Rex*

        Yes, this. I’m a pretty strong woman, and this would put me off. Are you sure you can’t drop to 50 lbs?

      2. AndersonDarling*

        I’ve always wondered about lift requirements in job ads. I assume it means someone will need to lift 75lb objects unassisted on a regular basis. Do you need to lift it overhead?
        I’ve also read job ads like this and assume the extreme weigh lift requirement was a way to prevent hiring women.

        1. FDCA in Canada*

          This is definitely what I would assume. All other things being equal I would assume that an extreme lifting requirement was code for “no women need apply.” Regardless of the degree in question.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I learned that lifting 75 pounds as part of my work day was not good for me or my body. I would not apply as I would assume that they wanted men to apply.

      3. LadyKelvin*

        Me too, I’m pretty strong (at 5’2″ and 120lb wet) but even I struggle carrying my dog’s 50lb bag of food from the parking garage to my apartment (about 500 yards). I can do it because it is malleable and I can grasp it, but if it was a box, I probably couldn’t carry it because I wouldn’t be able to get my arms around it. So I wouldn’t apply even though I would meet all the other requirements because I know I wouldn’t be able to life 75lbs on a regular basis for any kind of distance without help. I feel like requirements like that should be much better vetted, as in unless you are literally doing this as part of your job every day and you won’t be able to get any help, you should probably just talk about it in the interview and not list it in the job description. That way it can be a conversation and a woman who might not otherwise apply might say as long as she can have help its fine or if it is a small part of the job it might be manageable. And I say this having worked a summer job that required lifting 50lb objects in the job description, but I don’t think I ever lifted anything that heavy. The most tiring thing about that job was weedwacking for 8 hours a day.

        1. zora*

          I agree. Does the 75lbs really need to be lifted? Is it possible to use a dolly to move it from one place to another? I can handle dollys/handtrucks well, I have lots of experience with safe ways to move large and heavy objects (I used to be a stagehand) but I definitely can’t deadlift heavy objects, I use physics and tools to help me and have to be smarter about it because I don’t have the upperbody strength of most men.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            This is a good consideration–I destroyed my shoulders AND ended up with tennis elbow so bad I couldn’t move my arm and had to go to PT lifting heavy sample boxes at ExExjob. So I would wonder if there were no provisions for handling those materials on a regular basis.

      4. Aurion*

        Echoing all the other comments as a woman. How the weight is lifted makes a difference. Are you lifting the 75 lbs from ground to hip height, like a deadlift? Are you lifting it from a shelf and carrying it a short or long distance? Are you doing it once a day, or several times an hour? Do you get any equipment to aid you at all? I can lift more than 75 lbs, but depending on the specific job requirements, I would not apply for this job.

      5. paperfiend*

        Depending on what, exactly, the position has to DO with that 75lbs, you could make the description more specific and women might be more likely to apply. For example, my job description says I must be able to “lift and carry computer equipment occasionally”. The variant before that was “lift, carry, or pull up to 30 lbs”.

        If I saw “must be able to lift 75 lbs” I would be way less likely to apply than if it said “must be able to load and unload 75lb jugs of treatment chemicals onto transportation carts; must be able to push or pull carts weighing up to 150lbs; must be able to lift jugs to 3′ from the floor and empty into vats.” Also if any of the lifting is usually done in teams, then saying “must be able to lift a 75lb crate with the assistance of one other person” would be helpful to include.

        Me= reasonably petite female in a male-dominated field.

        1. Anonenony*

          This. Granted, I am an older woman, but among the women I know, very few would be able to lift 75 lbs and would be unlikely to apply with that requirement. Despite the implied sexism of the requirement, though, you had more than 10% women in your applicant pool. Not great but not terrible, either.

    4. Triangle Pose*

      Women can’t apply if they don’t know about the position. You list the job post requirements (nothing in there refers to diversity by the way) and the lack of women applicants but you say nothing about what your company has done in terms of outreach to women. Are you connecting with women trade/networking organizations or women student organizations? Is your company active with a booth at women events, speak at women’s groups and events and career days? Does your company itself have a women’s org to empower the women you do have? Have you reached out to those women and encouraged them to tap into their own network of women?

      The onus is on your company. One reason so many fields are male dominated is because employers have this type of limited perspective and follow this cyclical fallacy. If you are in a position to do something about this PLEASE DO IT.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        This. It’s not enough just to put an ad out there. If your industry has a diversity problem and you want to work on it, you have to go out of your way to (a) reach out to other demographics in new ways and new places — exactly like Triangle Pose described here, (b) revisit whether you’re describing the role in a way that is appealing to the people you’re trying to reach, and (c) figure out how to make your workplace welcoming and inclusive so you can retain those people once they’re there (and so that they want to join in the first place).

        1. GlorifiedPlumber*

          >If your industry has a diversity problem and you want to work on it

          Could you say a little bit more about this by chance? When does lack of diversity become a problem, and when are you ahead of the curve?

          I am male and work for a 25,000 person strong engineering company in a traditionally male discipline (chemical engineering, though my graduating class was ~60/40 M/F), we have a female CEO who is very active in developing a female leadership program within the company, my boss NOW is female, my boss before her was female, my first lead 10 years ago was female in oil and gas, my first lead here in semiconductors was female. I am a lead now, and my three best employees are female. Two of them are about to become fantastic leads. Our structural lead locally is female and awesome. Our engineering managers of all the engineering managers is female, former structural lead, and awesome. None of these positions were in my opinion “given”, they were freaking earned with blood and tears.

          BUT, if you look at raw statistics, we’re still minority female. Most of our engineers are male (last stats I saw was 72/28), and I would say on the designer side (half the staff), it is more like 90% male, and aside from the CEO, the bulk of the corporate leadership structure is male.

          I would bet, for the disciplines we hire, we are well ahead of the “stats”. Recall that a firm doesn’t consist of E1 new hires, so… you have to back track to say what they were 10 years ago.

          If you have outreach, if you make sure that the work environment is a fair place where talent rises to leadership positions, if you are well ahead of the “graduating” class stats, if you have a work environment that allows and encourage women to have long “ending in retirement one day” careers, then do you have a diversity problem?

          The INDUSTRY has a problem, but do YOU? We’re 1% profitable… we cannot spend a lot of money on fighting an industry wide problem.

          I am just genuinely curious here as it seems often I see suggestions of fighting a larger industry wide problem when it feels like THAT problem is well out of a specific companies locus of control. Expecting industry wide results from individual corporate action is… doesn’t make sense. Especially when that gap extends ALL the way back to college attendance.

          Thoughts?

          1. GlorifiedPlumber*

            Yikes… benefits of having actual stats.

            Public-ally available statistics on corporate websites has us at 73% Male, 27% Female world-wide over ALL staff (so accountants, lawyers, etc.).

            This is going to mean we’re not at 72/28 M/F in technical staff… probably much higher male %. 80%? 85%? Any more granularity than that, I’d have to count the 85 people in my department and parse out into engineering vs. design.

          2. Ultraviolet*

            I think that when people talk about fighting an industry-wide problem by making sure your company is inclusive, they mean that you’re making some progress against the larger problem, not that you’re expected to solve the problem for the whole industry. So they would not measure your company’s success by whether you fixed up your whole industry, only by how fair your company is on these issues.

            When does lack of diversity become a problem? One answer is: when it signals that women (or other underrepresented groups) are not being hired or retained at the same rates as men (proportional to their ratio in the applicant pool and staff). It sounds like you’re happy with your hiring rates, and that’s great. But the number of women vs men who leave the field after 5-10 years is pretty telling as well, so that’s something to watch for. Also–and I’m not saying that this is definitely an issue, only pointing out that it might be–do you have a lot of mediocre women employees as well as all those excellent ones you mentioned? Do you have proportionately fewer women who are pretty good than men who are pretty good? If on average your female employees are better than your male employees, you have to wonder whether women need to be better than men to get hired. Of course, there’s also the fact that in many fields like this, female graduates are better prepared than male ones, indicating that the differential selection happened sometime before they got to you. It’s hard to know what’s happening, but there are always explanations that are flattering to your company and explanations that are unflattering to your company, and it’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking that the existence of the former disproves the existence of the latter. Especially because the other signs that the company is falling down on inclusiveness are often not apparent to someone in the majority group.

            For the record, another problem with lack of diversity is that lack of (for example) women in leadership can lead to things like a poorly thought-out parental leave policy, or a tolerance for sexist jokes, or other things that will make it harder for women to join or thrive at your company. Another is that a non-inclusive idea of what your customer looks like can lead to problems with your products. Consider voice recognition software that doesn’t understand women as well as men, image processing software that doesn’t understand black people as human, or car airbags that are dangerous for adults under 5’4″.

    5. Gene*

      Omnibus answer here. This particular recruitment wasn’t anything I am part of, I am not now, nor have I ever been an operator. :-) But over the 3 places I’ve worked as a regulator, my office has always been at the treatment plant.

      Since this is a municipality, all our jobs are advertised the same places. We have no problems getting piles of applications from women for things like library and administrative jobs, so it’s not that it wasn’t someplace seen by women. Our HR department does all the advertising, it’s mostly on places like the City website and Governmentjobs dot com.

      The lifting thing is part of a physical job. It’s not every day, but when something like a pump needs to be moved, it needs to be moved. From what I see at workshops, my area of wastewater (pretreatment regulation) has a much higher proportion of women (I would guess about 40%) than the operations and maintenance. We are currently in the review phase for a new inspector, so I’m not yet allowed to see the gender breakdown, but last time around 5 out of 12 applicants were women; and we have a lifting requirement of 70 pounds.

      1. Aurion*

        I still think your job can be more specific on the lifting requirements. If the 75 lb minimum is a hard requirement, that still doesn’t tell me if I’d be lifting 75 lbs from the ground to chest height, or the pump is set up at chest height. Do I need to carry it from its location to the final destination, or do I just need to carry it to a cart nearby? How long would I be holding onto the weight? Approximately how often would this occur–once a week, once a month? Being more specific about how this weight is moved will go a long way.

        Perhaps all of this is evident to you and others in the field, but since this is entry level and you encourage new entrants this is probably not clear to them.

      2. Triangle Pose*

        None of what you said means that the municipality can’t reach out to women’s groups or orgs and actually make and effort in outreach. If the municipality actually values having women in these roles then they need to make that clear and go to women who are in school/in these fields. Your HR department or diversity coordinator can do things other than post on the city website and governmentjobs.com. Your comments here indicate you feel there is only one way to do this and we are telling you there is more the municipality can do to actually hire women for these roles.

      3. Leatherwings*

        I hear you when you say you don’t have much (or any) input in the hiring process/outreach etc.

        But at the same time, I think there *is* some harm in peddling the “women just don’t apply” narrative. The end of your post seems to almost call out women for not applying, rather than placing the onus back on your HR department. This isn’t about women not applying, this is about the outreach in your city/government.

        1. Gene*

          No, this is about women not applying. This job would have been literally on the same page as every other city job we were recruiting that week. So it’s not visibility or outreach to women that’s keeping them from applying. Otherwise, why do we get overwhelmingly female applicants for admin positions and few for treatment plant operator or asphalt worker or sewer maintenance laborer?

          With almost the same lifting requirement, we got almost 50% women applying for a regulator position. So it’s not the lifting keeping women from applying.

          As Maya Elena says below, I don’t see it as unable to do the work, I see it as women not applying for dirty work.

          And I see the last paragraph as more a call to arms than a calling out; at least that’s how I intended it.

          1. LCL*

            I know you said you have no part of the hiring process, so this suggestion isn’t meant for you specifically rather your department. It is also true that women don’t apply for tech jobs in as great a number as they apply for other jobs, simply because that kind of job doesn’t occur to them. The flip side of that is a news feature this week, pointing out that many out of work men could have work in jobs traditionally thought of as women’s jobs, but don’t think to apply to them.

            Most of the plant operations I have heard of poach people from the repair crews, and vice versa. I really wonder about the minimum quals being so heavy on academic achievement, or equivalent experience. People with academic experience aren’t usually looking for those kind of jobs, but will apply when they find out how good the money and benefits are. HR should be looking for people with hands on tech experience, and rewrite the minimum quals so they can get hired. HR needs to talk to the people that run your apprenticeships and get some ideas.

            Free tip-we have had great success with former military people.

          2. Emac*

            What’s the difference between an Operator and Regulator job?

            Despite getting a lot more applications from women for Regulator jobs, saying that the Operator jobs are on the same page is still ignoring the fact that to attract more women, it’s the responsibility of the company to figure out why women aren’t applying. I *highly* doubt that it’s just because it’s dirty work (and it’s pretty insulting to imply that).

            Triangle Pose and others have made some really good suggestions on how to get more women interested and how to clarify this particular job ad to help women know if they could handle the lifting requirements, but you seem to be ignoring those. And I know you said you aren’t involved in recruitment at all, but as Leatherwings says, there is harm in continuing to say that women just don’t apply, and especially that women just don’t apply to “dirty” jobs.

          3. Anonenony*

            The academic requirements may also reduce your percentage of women. The only women (actually, people in general now that I think about it) I know with that much science are in medicine or engineering. Perhaps recruiting where there might be some flunked out pre med students or career switching nurses would be helpful.

          4. Horological*

            Some of the biggest campaigns for equal employment have been in… Mining and the Military.
            It’s nothing at all to do with ‘dirty work’ (good grief, what proportion of cleaners are women? I’d rather deal with a waste treatment plant than your average friday night club bathroom) and everything to do with ‘do I think I’m going to be on the outside of a massively laddish group and completely miserable’.

      4. Sutemi*

        Are there any reasonable accommodations for someone who cannot lift 70 lbs? If a current operator was injured, would they be able to call over a coworker to assist? Is any mechanical assist available?
        I’m pretty strong, lifting 70 lbs occasionally would be OK but I am small, so lifting large items or high items is awkward.

      5. zora*

        Another point on the ‘women aren’t applying’, how is the municipality website set up? I have looked at websites like that for agencies/governing bodies, and often I have to pick a category at some point, because either they won’t let me look at “all jobs” or because the all jobs list is too long. So, I end up picking something like “administrative” or a department, just to winnow down somehow. Maybe women with science degrees don’t know that ‘wastewater’ would include jobs that they would be qualified for, and it’s hard to navigate the site to just browse through and look for options.

        I would still encourage you to think that it’s about who the jobs are promoted to, not that women don’t apply.

        1. Gene*

          To not completely out myself, here’s a link to a different city on the same portal showing how the jobs are listed. Click on job openings on my city’s website and you get a list just like this. https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/eugene

          I don’t see any possible confusion triggers here, it’s a list of job openings, arranged alphabetically by job title.

          And if a woman doesn’t know that ‘wastewater’ would include jobs that they would be qualified for, how does a man figure that out? Yes, that was sarcasm.

          1. Ultraviolet*

            Pretending that wasn’t sarcasm for a moment–men and women often get different types of mentoring and can end up with different professional networks. For instance, someone who works in a science-related role in wastewater treatment might think to suggest it as a career to a friend’s son who’s interested in chemistry, but not even think of mentioning to their nieces who are interested in chemistry. That’s the power of implicit bias, even in well-meaning people.

      6. Em too*

        But advertising in more female-focused places isn’t just about getting more women to see the ads, it’s about getting them to see the ads *in a context which suggests women are welcome to apply*.

    6. Maya Elena*

      We women seem much more likely to be upset at our under-representation in prestigious, well-paid jobs like medicine, tech and academia, especially if they’re shiny and clean and comfy (medicine being the exception) – and less so in hard, dirty, dangerous, or unglamorous jobs, such as coal mining or trash collection.

      I don’t know the details of Gene’s job opening (smells? Dirt? Work outside in the cold? Physical exertion?). But to theextent that it has these properties, I’d expect a deificiency of female applicants even if you ran ad campaigns in Cosmo for a year.

      1. Gene*

        All of these. We have two plants that this position could work at, our water treatment plant – remote up in the mountains. Outside work, snow in the winter, dirt, handling chemicals, physical labor. The other the wastewater treatment plant – close in to town. Sewage, associated smells, dirt, outside work, physical labor.

      3. AnotherAlison*

        IDK, I think we’re pretty pissed about being shut out of any high-paying jobs, but the battle is easier to fight for jobs that only require brain power and not brawn.

        I also think that women who are in fields like technology or engineering have a louder voice compared to women in blue collar positions.

        1. Emac*

          “the battle is easier to fight for jobs that only require brain power and not brawn.”

          Yes, this exactly. And I think that’s especially true for entry level jobs that require brawn. I would probably assume that given a choice of two hundred more or less equally qualified applicants that they’d be more likely to go with a man if the job requires physical strength. Whereas with jobs that require brain power, there’s more of a case that can be made that I have specific skills or education or experience that not everyone else has.

      4. Fact & Fiction*

        I’m hoping you don’t mean to insinuate that women won’t apply to these types of jobs simply because they’re fragile flowers who, lord forbid, are afraid to get dirty or stinky or work outside/in the cold merely because they’re women. Sure, there are plenty of women who won’t apply because they don’t like those things but please note there are plenty of men who won’t apply for those same reasons (disliking those elements). I think it’s important to identify ways in which you can encourage more female applicants without perpetuating the stereotype that we’re all afraid of getting dirty because we’re women.

        Also, I actually do know “blue collar” women who are upset at their underrepresentation in their current or desired industries or who have been chased out because of discrimination. I just don’t think they get as much airtime because of those fields not seeming as “glamorous.”

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yeah, I am getting kind of lost here as to what we are doing here. Not snark, I mean that sincerely.
          From the day I was born to well into the 80s I heard, “You are a woman, therefore you can become a teacher, a nurse or a secretary.” Both men and women delivered this message to me.
          Around 2010 (!!!), I became aware of some of the all that goes into managing waste and managing water supply because of being on a board for a municipality. It’s been within the last few years that I learned what an operator was.

          My impression of waste management and water supply management is that it’s brutal work. You have to be available all hours of the day and night, your time is not your own. If the strength/endurance demands of the job do not do you in, the sub-zero weather and glare ice roads will. Then there is the lack of parts, the lack of manpower and equipment, the lack of municpal moneys. If you still are hanging around for this one, the last thing you need to know is that nothing is written down anywhere. We have a 100 year old water pipe coming into to our community. No one wrote down where it is exactly. We know it is somewhere in that 10 acres over there.

          Why anyone, regardless of gender, wants this work mystifies me. But I can tell you, the people who do this work have my utmost respect that is on a par with the way I feel about military folks, firefighting folks and others.
          I can honestly say no way in heck would I have considered this work if I had known about it years ago.

      5. Clever Name*

        I do a job where I get dirty and have to do physical labor outdoors in all seasons and I’m a woman. As I mentioned, I work in a female-dominated company in a male-dominated field. Our best field technician is a young woman.

    7. Mockingjay*

      My oldest daughter recently started as lab technician for the city’s sewer dept. She loves it; steady hours, good pay, and some of the best benefits I have seen in YEARS. She has an Associates in Science and the city will pay for her to complete a bachelors.

      She did have a lifting requirement (30 lbs., I think) which she wasn’t sure she could meet. She has a bad shoulder (under treatment, just slow to heal). They really wanted her for her lab skills anyway, so they asked her for a medical clearance from her doctor. (She can lift, just not over shoulder height.) It’s not been an issue. The technicians are paired when they go out to collect samples, so there is always someone to assist with hauling stuff.

      She’s looking forward to completing her probationary period in a few weeks, because then they will train her to drive the trucks. Panel vans, mostly, but she’s getting a CDL for it!

      1. Gene*

        Welcome to the field Mockingjay’s eldest daughter!

        Make sure you join the Water Environment Federation and your local affiliate.

    8. AnnAnon*

      I just want to say – I’m a lab tech at a med/large wastewater treatment plant. Female, 4 year chemistry degree, just decided to apply for my Operator’s License to become more familiar with operations and doing other treatment plant support work outside of the lab in the future. It makes me happy to see comments from someone else who is also in the wastewater world.

      I agree that water treatment is a great field for the reasons you stated – good benefits, job security, not sitting behind a desk all day.

      It seems to me that most operators are male – maybe 10% of our operators are women? You say – ‘encourage her to look into the field.’ Maybe your HR office (or an community outreach effort on the part of folks doing the hiring) can do exactly that. Go visit local schools, tell them about your work. I get what you are saying about how the ads are right along all the others on governmentjobs and the standard list of places the HR advertises. I think culturally, women have less exposure to jobs like plant operator and don’t have a sense of what they involve, so they pass over them when they see them. I’d never heard of ‘plant operator’ or had any clue what an operator did till I worked at a plant. I think it might take that little extra effort to bring these jobs to their attention so that women give them a second look.

    9. Clever Name*

      Lifting and carrying 75 pounds? I work in the environmental field and I personally do physically-demanding work outdoors, as to most of my colleagues. I have been working in this field for over 10 years. My current company is woman-owned, and 75% of our technical staff are women. I have only ever known one woman, maybe 2, who could lift and carry 75 pounds. Is that a bona fide qualification for the job? Do people often work on teams? Can they team-lift 75 pounds?

      For me personally (I’m a woman), I would never, ever, apply to a job that had that requirement, and frankly, when I see that requirement, I assume that the company is trying to filter out women from applying, and I assume it will be unpleasantly male-dominated. (I’ve worked with men who are awesome coworkers and I’ve worked with men who don’t see anything wrong with listening to Howard Stern radio in the job trailer)

  61. Jules the First*

    So a month into my new job, I led my first senior meeting this week and NewBoss said it was the first time she’s left one of those meetings feeling calm instead of panicky. Cue super happy me because I love the hours, commute, and compensation package (even if I’m a teensy bit bored), so it’s good to hear that I’m performing to expectations – I’d like to stay here for a while.

    Icing on the cake? My old job is in the news again today with another dear-god-what-were-they-thinking public exhibition of their corporate dirty laundry (formerly my job to hide under sofas). I’m sooooooo happy to be gone from there!

  62. rosenstock*

    i started a new job about 2 weeks ago and it’s going really well so far, although of course i’m still getting my bearings and everything. the problem is that i just got broken up with out of the blue blue sky and i’m not handling it well and crying constantly. my eyes are red and i’m sure i look weepy all the time. no ones said anything but i’m sure it’s noticeable. any tips for keeping it together at a new job when something like this happens?

    1. SeekingBetter*

      Hey, I kind of went through the same thing as you with ex-boyfriend at the time. I was only two months into my new job when he called it quits. I couldn’t stop being emotional at work, so what I did was find a therapist to help me with coping strategies. The therapist went over making an effort to post a positive “I’ll get over this” phrase next to your chair so everytime you tear up, you’ll be reminded and it sort of stops your thoughts. Also, getting sleep and exercising may not make your blues go away, but it will slowly help with your mood. It’s going to be very hard, but just hope your emotions will be in better shape in about two weeks or so. I hope this helps!

    2. SCAnonabrarian*

      If you were any more established in the office, I would say just power through and if/when someone comments, to be honest and brief that you got broken up with. But at two weeks in, I’d be worried that ‘crying over my breakup” would be a lasting first impression. If you’re brave enough, then seriously just be honest and try to be as professional as you can manage. Keep yourself mentally busy and focused on work. Practice re-directing your thoughts quickly when you (inevitably) think about your breakup. Take lots of bathroom breaks and LOTS of self-care. Keep tissues discreetly handy. Learn to re-direct or not-really-answer questions.
      “Wow, you look tired today!”
      “Yeah, those fluorescent lights are killer for the complexion, aren’t they? How is your project going?”

      “Are you ok?”
      “Yeah, thanks, just thinking hard about those teapots and how I’m going to spreadsheet the drip patterns. What do you think about a scatter-plot approach?”

      If it were me tho, I’m NOT brave, and at two weeks into a new job with people I don’t know, I’d have a bottle of those “red-out” eye-drops handy, and I’d consider blaming unspecific allergies.

      I’m so sorry for your breakup. I hope that the process is as gentle and quick as possible.

    3. Natalie*

      Doing what you can do to minimize the crying and affect on your appearance is wise. But I would also have a brief conversation with your boss and let them know, assuming you can get through it in a fairly casual or neutral way (that is, you can tell them without crying). The thing with impressions is that they happen subconsciously a lot of the time, so you can’t assume co-workers will approach you and ask what’s wrong.

      1. rosenstock*

        thanks for taking the time to answer – you’re right that i can’t wait until someone asks.

        1. Callalily*

          You don’t even have to say what happened (I know how sob inducing just saying it is) and can just say that you’re having some personal issues that may make you temporarily appear emotional… no one will pry any further than that.

    4. Fluffer Nutter*

      Build a mental lasagna. If you feel yourself headed toward emotional, take your self through all the steps of fixing lasagna (or another suitable complex recipe) beginning with “Buy noodles, cheese and 1/4 lb spicy Italian sausage” etc. Moves the brain back to the here and now quickly. It works! Best of luck in finding the right person. I got dumped 6 years ago- was DEVASTATED- and now have someone who suits me so much better.

    5. Mallows*

      I keep recommending an article I found when I was in a similar situation. It really helped! Link to follow. I’m sorry you are hurting.

  63. Anna*

    Couple of things.

    I’m moving offices. It’s an upgrade with a few caveats. Caveat number one is that I think my boss is doing it to keep an eye on me. It’s not that she doesn’t trust me, it’s that I am not a particularly neat/organized person and she wants to keep me in line. Caveat number two is no more private bathroom. This makes me the saddest. The good news is that my office will be bigger and I’ll have storage for the things I use for my job and I am getting a standing desk, and I’ll be closer to everyone else on the management team, which I am not right now.

    The other thing is that I took Alison’s advice about sending a thank you email to someone on another team and copied their manager on it. This person is overworked and did me a HUGE favor by getting an order in yesterday so I could have it next week and I am incredibly grateful. So I sent an email explaining how much I appreciate it and what it means that he was able to get it done and I made sure to include his boss so she could know how helpful he was.

    1. Sibley*

      When you say you’re not particularly neat/organized – there are levels here. Lots of levels.

      There are 2 options I see: either your boss is extreme on the neat/organized end, or you’re a lot worse than you think. If it’s #1, cope. If it’s #2, you need to improve. No one wants to have a fire code violation in the desk next to them.

      1. Anna*

        It’s not that bad by a long shot. You can see the floor in my office, no tripping hazards or anything like that. My desk is cluttered but not so bad I’m losing my work. Part of it is that my job involves having brochures and handouts and giveaways and table cloths, and there is no place to put them right now. So I neatly set them out of the way in front of my desk, but that’s not ideal. When I move, I’ll have closet and cupboards.

  64. AnitaJ*

    Rave! My manager is wonderful. Always has been, and continues to be. We had a team meeting this week to go over a few new policies and procedures, and she made sure to take the opportunity to tell us all what wonderful work we’re doing. We had a period of transition and turnover in 2016, and she stressed heavily that the company is doing well and that we have no reason to be concerned about job security. (But if that we were concerned, she’s open to discussing our worries.)

    She tirelessly works to make sure we feel appreciated and supported. She encourages our professional goals and does everything she can to help us achieve them. She goes above and beyond every day to help all of us succeed.

    I feel very lucky to have her. Rave!

  65. Jean*

    After reading a couple years of archived posts here, I have been mulling over the jobs thing. I have to wonder how this will play out in the future because there don’t seem to be enough jobs now due to company downsizing, automation, and outsourcing, etc. What are we going to do when there just aren’t enough jobs to keep the bulk of the working-age population working? We’ve added a billion (!) people to the world since the turn of of the 20th century and population is just going to keep growing.

    Does anyone else wonder about this, or am I making a mountain out of a molehill?

    1. SeekingBetter*

      This is a really good thought and I’m glad you are sharing it. I absolutely agree with you on how the jobs thing is going to pan out for our future. Right now, it seems to me that there’s a lot more restaurant, retail, and service jobs available when compared with professional jobs. But the thing is, I don’t think there’s enough jobs in that either to hire everyone that exists in this world. Would be very interesting to hear other AAMer’s perspectives on it.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        There are a few industries that are always begging for help. Healthcare, and many trades like diesel mechanics and welding don’t have a large enough pool of candidates. I think there may be a day where there are incentives to go into nursing (gov scholarships for all nursing students) or stipends to go into needed trades.
        We will just need to be more focused on how our workforce gets trained so workers can be guided to the available jobs. (That sounds so Overlord-y)

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Jobs will change. We won’t have our first job at McDs, it will be stocking food vending machines instead.
      New products will be developed. For example, Jean you will need my fantastic repair skills because your personal use space ship won’t start.
      Work weeks may shorten so that everyone has a chance to work if they can.
      Start thinking about the things that cannot be automated. Tailoring, plumbing, electrical wiring, dog/pet care, health care… most service type things.

      I am not saying don’t worry about it, but I am trying to encourage the thought that human beings are verrry creative people. And we are very good at convincing people to get things they don’t need. We do that well. I think that while there maybe some growing pains it won’t be as bad as worst case scenario that involves all of us sitting around with no work and no food. That’s if expanding population is our biggest problem. I can see other problems causing bigger issues much quicker such as acts of war.

    3. Overeducated*

      Lots of people are worrying about this! What will self driving cars mean for millions of truck drivers? We pay a lot of attention to outsourcing in politics but what about factory jobs lost to automation? Tip of the icebeeg.

      I think there are two ways things need to go to make sure people can live. One, new jobs we don’t have or imagine now need to develop around new needs; they generally do, or jobs like social media management wouldn’t exist. But the numbers of those may be lower and the transition rough.

      Two, we need policies that focus on jobs and people, not GDP numbers. That means worker protections, wages that can meet the cost of living, and maybe if things get bad enough, New Deal style work programs using government spending to create jobs and products that benefit the public (we still use parks built by the CCC!) I don’t think we are in a culture where that is realistic now, unfortunately.

  66. KatieKate*

    I have to work with a different department with a guy who is complexity incomprehensible with email to the point where I have to call a coworker over to help me read them, and I usually have to email back to ask for clarification. Little punctuation, no capitalization, sentences missing verbs or nouns, etc. He also asks for the same information and files over and over again.

    This guy is an upper level manager who is friends with the CEO, so there’s nothing I can do, but it’s so frustrating!! Does anyone else have to deal with something like this?

    1. CM*

      Can you just call the guy and have a conversation with him every time you get an email from him? “Hey, I saw your email, and wanted to talk to you about it,” and then get the details from him rather than trying to decipher the email.

    2. Snork Maiden*

      Ages ago in another life I used to work as a literacy tutor so this sort of behaviour jumps out at me; you may be able to find some resources online that you can translate to use in this situation (like the following up in person as CM mentioned.) Also if you can frame it as “this is how he is” rather than “He’s doing this on purpose” it may help with your frustration levels.

    3. Chicken Little*

      Ooh, I had one of those! I realized that his emails were exactly like his spoken communications, so I just read them out loud to myself putting in inflections and pauses – they way you normally speak. It made them much more comprehensible.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      My husband could be Mr. Dictionary. He had a technical and medical vocab that blew away some professionals. Not the same problem, but bear with me here. Once in a while he would get rolling with his lingo and I would just say to him, “As soon as you can help me understand what you want, then I will help you.” Maybe you can find a way to let him know that you are not understanding his emails and you want to be of solid help to him. The technique would be showing him it is to his advantage and using a sincere tone.

      Can you keep copies of the emails you send him so you can just resend the old email?

  67. Taylor Swift*

    I finally got a new job! Yay! I’m working out my notice period (which was quite long; my boss knew I was looking and was very supportive). She and another one of my coworkers are asking for what I think is an excessive amount of hand holding as I train them on my duties. I’m leaving a set of very detailed instructions and I don’t mind going through them, but they’re asking for multiple sessions of going over the same things and asking really micro-level questions that I feel are derailing what should be a high-level discussion. But, she’s the boss and I have just one week left here so I’ll grin and bear it! One week!

    1. bopper*

      Some people are top down learners and some are bottom up. Document the high level discussion and have whatever level of discussion you want.

      “Teapot spout pouring designs? Yes, let’s look at the over all teapot design…and we go to the spout and then the opening, and then here we see the instructions for the opening design.”

  68. help me im bored*

    I spent my summer job hunting after an unexpected move to another state. I have a creative background and was trying to break into marketing (huge agency presence in my new city). One thing I noticed at my interviews: there are not a lot of older folks. I would say the cutoff was in the 40s, but even those were hard to come by. I’m working in legal services now, so plenty of nearing-retirement-aged colleagues, but is this a common thing? I’ve heard of marketers being aged out, and it didn’t strike me until yesterday (months after the fact) that perhaps not acquiring a position in the agency world was for the best.

    Thoughts? Experiences? How to people maintain a career in an ageist field?

    1. Anonymous63*

      My mother-in-law worked in Marketing until she (voluntarily) retired this year at about age 60, so there is hope! One thing to note is that while I know she had worked at ad agencies right out of college, for most of the last 20 years, she did marketing for non-profits. Perhaps that transition from agencies to marketing a specific organization is common for people further along in their marketing careers? Sadly, I don’t know much more, but maybe it’s something you could look into.

    2. Regina 2*

      I think you have to be a superstar and start your own firm or specialize. I’m in marketing, and I worry about this a lot; I never see anyone over 40, and at 33, I feel much farther behind my colleagues that are 10 years younger than me, especially with the advent of digital. I’m pretty sure I need to move out of this field; I doubt there will be room for someone like me in the next ten years.

    3. Applecinnamon*

      If you have a legal background and are trying to break into marketing, look for opportunities that rely on that. Like marketing for industries that are heavily regulated. I temped at a pharm company whose marketing director had a Jd. Not a marketing degree. compliance is a huge issue, so legal exp may allow you a better than entry level job.

  69. ShoeRuiner*

    Help! I need an icebreaker. I have to do an icebreaker at the beginning of our next team meeting (about 10 people). I don’t like these sort of things and I know others don’t either. What are some painless, non-embarrassing, work-appropriate ice breakers?

    1. Lindsey*

      I do a musical chairs type of icebreaker! Sit a group of chairs (or some sort of place marker) in a circle, and one person stands in the middle. They say something about themselves (i.e. I’m a dual citizen; I have four siblings; whatever) and then whoever else that is also true for has to move to another spot in the circle (can’t be the spot directly next to them on either side). One person always ends up in the middle, and the game continues.

      I like this a lot because it can get very silly and it gets people up, moving and engaged and it helps people see the commonalities that they have with their coworkers.

    2. Jenbug*

      2 truths and a lie is usually a good one but I’d recommend giving people a heads up so they can prepare for it.

      2. lionelrichiesclayhead*

        Love that you suggested giving people a heads up. I usually hate this game but it’s more about being put on the spot to think up the facts, not that the actual game is annoying.

    3. Sandra Dee*

      We don’t normally do icebreakers, but during our larger team meetings, everyone in attendance get the opportunity to share One Good Thing, usually work related, but can be personal if you prefer. We are very project oriented, so it helps to keep everyone informed about major milestones, and the work the other team members are doing.

    4. Jules the First*

      My book club uses “least favourite vegetable and why” or “fictional character you’d most like to meet and why”

      My last (creative) job used “wrestle a bear or run from a lion, and why”, which elicited some interesting and amusing answers.

      1. Tomato Frog*

        I like the idea of doing something opinion-based, or with stated options, rather than saying information about one’s self. “Something about yourself nobody here knows” can be pretty difficult when you already know the people, and two truths and a lie might be innocuous enough but it still gives me flashbacks to school.

      2. Becca*

        Ahh those are all great! These are so wonderful and they’re work-appropriate! There’s no need to share any secrets or details from your personal life, and there’s not even a prompt that would make people think so. Two Truths and a Lie is more for camp or school settings, I think.
        (If you do ask any of Jules’s questions, I’d love to hear some answers!!)

    5. Rhys*

      The last one my company did was “Two truths and a lie.” We had a few new people starting and we asked each of them to state three “facts” about themselves and we all had to guess which was fake. As icebreakers go it was pretty good since people got to choose what to say about themselves so it wasn’t personally embarrassing to anybody.

    6. Newish Reader*

      One icebreaker I was involved with wasn’t too painful (I’m in the camp of not really liking them overall). Each person wrote down one thing about themselves that they thought others might not know, with all of the pieces of paper going into a bowl or box. Each piece of paper is read out loud and the group attempts to guess which coworker wrote it. The best part about this is that each person is self-selecting what to share with their colleagues and it can be something fairly innocuous. For example, I don’t have a middle name, so that’s what I used.

      1. Emac*

        I did an ice breaker like that which was kind of fun. The only difference with the one I did was that we all put our pieces of paper in a bag, then pulled one out (putting it back if we got our own). Then we all had to walk around and talk to people to figure out who’s paper we had.

        Another one I did that was kind of fun was the organizers had come up with several broad categories like who was born in this state, do you prefer dogs or cats, etc. Then as they read out each category, those who chose A would move to the right side of the room and those who chose B would move to the left. This is good especially if you have a group of quieter people.

    7. Rebecca Too*

      We used to do one at our team meetings that consisted of each person writing “3 truths & a lie” on an index card. When your turn comes, you read it out loud, and the group guesses which one is the lie. It’s kind of nice because you can control just how much you’d like to reveal….and avoid embarassment!

    8. Cath in Canada*

      We did a cool thing at our last work retreat. We all stood in a circle, and one person held the end of a big ball of yarn. They threw the ball to someone else in the circle with whom they had something in common, while saying that thing out loud and holding on to the end of the thread, so you end up with a strand running across the circle. Then the recipient repeats, and by the end you have a big web interconnecting everyone. We did a work version, where the connections had to be shared projects or processes, and then a non-work version, where the connection were things like both having cats, or being from the same country, or both watching Game of Thrones – nothing too personal.

  70. LadyKelvin*

    More good news on the job front. I mentioned in the weekend open thread last week that I got an awesome job offer in Honolulu and accepted it this week. So I’m moving at the end of January for a early Feb start date. We weren’t sure what was going to happen with my husband as he has a very well paying job in DC and while we could (and would) survive on just my pay, if he had to quit his job we would be taking about a 60% pay cut and moving to the most expensive place on earth. Not really, but close. Well he talked to his bosses this week and while they weren’t thrilled that he was asking to stay on and work remotely, they all agreed that it was an awesome opportunity for us that we shouldn’t pass up and they would work with him. So he’ll be remote and we have a bit of a cushion to save up money for if/when he leaves his job. He might be able to stay remote for the next year or so, so now instead of having to be super frugal in Hawaii, we will be able to live comfortably. We are still planning expenses (rent, etc) as though we are going to just be on my salary or close to my salary so if something should happen we would be ok, and we live well within our income as it is, but knowing I won’t have to worry about money or about needing to fly back to the east coast where our families are at the last minute is such a stress relief. Just goes to show that being a star employee and working hard for the man can pay off big time.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      Wow! Getting a job in HI is like winning the lottery! I hope you get settled in and everything works out great. Woo hoo!

    4. Regina 2*

      Welcome and congrats! I work in HNL, and I absolutely believe it’s the most expensive place in the country, given how low wages tend to be and how insane the cost of living is. I think planning as if you were living off of one salary is very wise — money goes quickly around here.

      Glad to hear things worked out for you! Aloha!

  71. Fife*

    What does it mean when your 4th interview is with the HR Director? I was interviewed by the President, Director of Finance, Accounting Manager (in that order). The DoF asked to “continue the interview process” while the HR Director used words like “conversation” and “discussion”. I’m not sure how to prepare for this phone call next week (I live out of state to the company) – as an interview or as a salary negotiation.

    1. Gaara*

      Assume it’s an interview until you hear otherwise (i.e. they make you an offer). But be ready to discuss salary if the HR person wants to.

    2. Goreygal*

      In the absence of a firm and clear job offer there is no job offer so I would proceed on the presumption that this is another interview.

  72. SubwayFan*

    Does anyone have a template (or a link to one) for summarizing meeting minutes? I’m teaching someone new how to keep track of meetings, like decisions made, outstanding questions, dependencies for a project, and action items, but it’s a bit exhausting working from what they’re giving me as their raw notes. Most of my templates are for web based projects, not events, so they’re not very adaptable. I figured someone here would have a great idea.

    1. The Other Dawn*

      I don’t have a template, but what I used to do is make my notes right on the meeting agenda next to/under each item. That way when I go back to write the minutes, it’s organized and I can fill in any details. The key for me was to write the minutes as soon as possible after the meeting so as to not get foggy on the details that I might not have written down.

      1. SubwayFan*

        Oh that’s a good idea. I’ve been working with her on organizing the ongoing meeting agendas, so this would fit in well. Thanks!

      2. zora*

        This, or I quickly print myself another version of the agenda with just the top titles, and half a page of space underneath. But basically I use the agenda as my notes template.

        You could even show her to write “Decisions” “Outstanding Questions” as a header under each agenda item and create her own template for all meetings. So once she finalizes the agenda she makes herself a Notes Template to use.

      3. Becca*

        I also make a copy of the meeting agenda (and I tend to format it to my liking ahead of time… font & bullet point snob alert!). I take the notes right on my laptop, which may or may not be possible in your setting.
        If not, leaving space for notes on the agenda works; if you run out of room/don’t have room, she could take notes on a separate page and just do something footnote-like to connect where the notes match with the agenda.

        1. zora*

          Yes, I love taking the notes right on my laptop in the meeting, so that I can just hit send as soon as the meeting is over. It makes it such an easier job!

    2. Mockingjay*

      If you use MS Word, open a New document. Under Office.com Templates, click in Search Office.com for templates and type ‘minutes’ or ‘meeting minutes’. You can also click the Minutes icon.

      Download a few and tweak them to suit you. I still use a minutes template that I found from Office 2007 (updated for 2013). (I just checked and a version of it is still available!)

      Most of the Word templates are table-based, so you need to be familiar with those.

  73. Weeeeeeeeeeeee*

    So an interesting take on negotiation!

    The marketing person, when he switched from a different sales support role, tried to negotiate salary. Researched it, brought up the industry norms, etc. Keep in mind also that he was asked to switch to this role. When it opened, no one else was interviewed. He was specifically asked to apply because he was so competent in his last, unrelated role.

    He got a slight increase from what had been originally offered but the main reason he didn’t get the number requested was that he “hadn’t yet proven that he could do the job.” Dunno how I feel about THAT.

    1. bopper*

      This is a great article about negotiating”
      “Voss: So if someone says, “Let’s revisit your raise in 3 months,” what you want to do is not let that go. Put them in a position that makes them sound like that’s an unacceptable response. You ask this question and in this way: “How am I supposed to do that?” You have to use those exact words. There are two or three possible answers to that, and you want to be prepared for all three. One is “You’re right, you can’t.” The very worst possible answer that everyone imagines is “Because you have to.” How bad is that? The reality is that there’s no downside to that answer, and that’s maybe 20 percent of the time.

      Lam: Why is that not bad? My instincts say that’s bad.

      Voss: First of all, you found out they’re not going to budge, which makes you 10 times smarter than you were 60 seconds ago. Part of the purpose of what we said is to diagnose whether there’s any room in their position. That’s critical to how you move forward. Is there any room and can I navigate it? So now you’ve just found out there’s no room, which makes you smarter. And now you can make an informed decision, you know for sure there’s only one or two choices—and that’s walk away or agree.”

      http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/04/ask-a-hostage-negotiator-whats-the-best-way-to-talk-about-a-raise/391943/

      1. Emac*

        “How am I supposed to do that?” seems kind of aggressive to me. I think it is important to follow up, but I think it should be more focused on what you would need to accomplish in those three months to qualify for a raise. Ask for concrete goals and measurements. Then, yes, the choice then is to walk away or agree. And if you agree, make sure to keep the list of goals and measurements somewhere visible and keep track of anything that shows how you’re meeting those, and be proactive when the three months are up about approaching your boss to start the discussion.

        And I don’t really think the OPs scenario is unreasonable. It sounds like they are giving him a chance because they know he’s been a solid employee, but they really don’t know if he’ll be able to handle the new, unrelated role. I would suggest that he ask for a timeline of when to discuss it again and what will prove that he can do the job.

  74. Miss Ann Thrope*

    Thanks to the responses last week re: my awaiting an editorial decision on a paper. I got word back – another R&R (minor)! Glad to have the chance to address reviewers concerns and that it wasn’t a reject :)

  75. The Mighty Thor*

    Question for Alison and my fellow AAM readers:

    I work for a teapot manufacturer’s HQ in Illinois. About a year ago, in order to be more productive, I shortened my usual 30 minute lunch down to about 5 minutes. When my department manager caught on to this, she told me it was required I take a 30 minute lunch citing company policy. I immediately complied, and have since.

    I recently checked the employee handbook however, and it says employees are entitled to a lunch of at least 30 minutes, but not to exceed an hour. Entitled to, not required to. I read this as company policy saying the lunch break is in fact optional.

    Now as a regular reader, I know my manager is well within her rights to require me to do this. I don’t plan to push back, this isn’t the hill I want to die on.

    I’m curious though, what could the reasoning be? I’m happier working then just sitting idle, and wouldn’t she want the increased productivity she’d get from me?

    1. Jenbug*

      State Labor Laws: Illinois employers must provide a meal break to employees who work at least seven and a half continuous hours. This break must be at least 20 minutes long, and it must start no later than five hours after the beginning of the shift. These are unpaid breaks; employers are not required to pay employees for this time unless employees have to work through their breaks.

      (link to where I found that in the next comment)

        1. The Mighty Thor*

          Looks like it says “employers are required to provide” not “employees are required to take” unless this is just semantics and both have the same legal meaning? I’m certainly no legal expert.

          1. animaniactoo*

            The company requires you to take them to prove they’re providing them. If you don’t take them, it can have the appearance of being pressured into agreeing not to take them, and even if you swear up and down that it was all your idea and your preference, it can be looked on with suspicion as “required to say in order to keep my job”.

            So to circumvent that, the company needs to make you actually take your provided lunch. While that might not make sense individually, as a whole it is a good thing that prevents people who would otherwise be forced to work through lunch from having to do that with less scrupulous employers/managers/etc.

    2. SubwayFan*

      My guess would be is that she doesn’t want other people to be pressured into not taking a full lunch break. Where I work, some teams have people who don’t take lunch at all and just eat at their desks. This puts a lot of stress on other people who like to take lunch, they feel like they’re “slacking off” compared to the busy folks who aren’t taking a lunch break. It’s easy to fall into that trap.

    3. Graciosa*

      First, have you checked the labor laws for all the states your company operates in? Some states do require lunch breaks, and this can be non-negotiable (meaning employees cannot “volunteer” to give this up). I said “all the states your company operates in” because some multi-state companies pick one standard that complies with all laws and enforce that single standard consistently in every state.

      Second, no, as a manager, I don’t necessarily want what the employee perceives as increased productivity. Overworked employees are generally less productive than they think they are – there are points at which additional time at work ends up resulting in the same (or less) productivity than fewer hours. Also, I want to properly staff my team rather than concealing problems by having my team members overworked.

      As a manager, I appreciate the thought, but I’ll let you know if overtime is needed and it won’t involve working through your lunch hour without even a mental break.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      If you are on the manufacturing floor, then companies want you to take a break and rest so you can stay focused and not have an accident and injure yourself. Tired employees loose fingers. I’d guess that is at the core of the decision.

      1. The Mighty Thor*

        I work in the corporate HQ, not one of our plants. The worst injury I might get is a paper cut.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      It sounds as though breaks are mandated by the state, so I would just go ahead and take one. Make your break time distinct from your working time somehow–leave your desk, go eat somewhere else like another room or even elsewhere off the property if feasible. If you’re not eating at that time (like you eat earlier at your desk but still have to take the break), do laps or stair climbs or run an errand. Go sit somewhere and read for a bit.

      I know what you mean—I worked through lunches at Exjob so I could leave before rush hour hit (I had to drive across town), but lunch breaks aren’t mandated here and my boss was okay with it. If I felt like “I just can’t even,” I clocked out and took an actual break. Because people aren’t machines.

    6. Anonenony*

      Oh man, I used to manage someone like you in illinois. If you are not taking a lunch break when you are required to, your supervisor could get in trouble and the company itself could, if audited on labor practices. I went around about this every year at performance review time. She would always slip back into it. I would eventually just go ahead and deduct the thirty minutes that she was supposed to have taken every time she went over. I suppose if you want to work for free on your lunch hour, that’s your business. But if your employer would rather you take the break, take it. She also thought she was more productive without the break. She wasn’t, she just wanted to leave earlier. (Yes, I know it’s weird to be penalized for working too much, but seriously, if you are told you are not supposed to be working, believe it.)

  76. Puuuurrrrfectly Confused*

    Anyone else have experience being in roles where you have a lot of the responsibilities of being a leader with non of the perks or authority of a manager?

    When it comes to standards around how I comport myself I am held to the standard of a leader. I’m expected not to get too friendly with staff, be a champion of process change, and if I ever make a slide (like normal office chatter/fat chewing) it’s a BFG that requires a LONG DISCUSSION.

    Meanwhile if I ever sway to far to leader, I’t also a BFG and my managers can’t define that line for me. It seems to be that if another leader feels like I crossed that line, they run to my manager (instead of telling me) and I get told I messed up. I have to get people to act, such as for project management, but sometimes even asking if somone can do something for me is seen as crossing a line, but asking their leader to ask them is also crossing a line.

    It’s frankly an awful situatin to be in and I’ve found myself being treated this way in my last 3 roles. It makes me a peerless freak who can’t really hang out and be friends with anyone at work since I’m “above staff” but “below management”.

    Also to clarify that this is not me going on a power trip/thinking I’m a special snowflake. My supervisor literally stated that this is the postion I am in on Monday. Confirming what I have been suspecting for months.

    I don’t know how I keep finding myself in this situation – it’s happened in very different types of roles.

    Anyone else found themselves in these types of situations? How do you manage? Also, were you able to leverge this to get a real management job? Or if you didn’t like it, how did you make sure you next role didn’t devolve into this?

    1. Lindsey*

      Totally! I’m a program manager, but the project managers don’t report to me (it’s super / eye roll). I find that building relationships with people’s managers, and asking them to trickle down instructions to their team helps. A lot of managers tend to be really touchy, so that makes them feel like they’re in the loop (“bringing people along” is the current catch phrase at my organization). At the same time, everyone’s different. I let people have a lot of autonomy if they’re showing that they can do the job well, but I loop in their manager a lot more often if I need to keep a closer eye on them.

    2. periwinkle*

      I used to be an HR coordinator and lived in that strange bubble between staff and management. Each side confided in me about their issues with the other and I had to remain steadfastly neutral (or at least give that appearance). Not a comfortable position but certainly an educational one.

      My company has a lot of program managers and a LOT of project managers. They all suffer from the same thing you’re experiencing: accountability and responsibility for the work with no authority over the people doing the work. However, you are being held to super-weird standards; our PMs are allowed to be human beings and enabled to get stuff done.

      Anyway, in your role you’d benefit by learning how to manage by influence since you cannot do so by authority. Negotiation skills can be very valuable for this! Normally it’s also important and beneficial to build collaborative relationships with team members and stakeholders, but your current org doesn’t seem to allow you to actually talk with anyone.

  77. J*

    I started my new job Tuesday and I have to say: this gig has some of the most thorough onboarding I have ever experienced. From the moment my email was configured I had 20 appointments with various contacts to meet and greet. My entire first week has been one meeting after another. Which is great. And I’m so glad they’ve thought of this. But it’s also exhausting and my inner introvert wants to crawl into a hole for the next week to recover.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Ooh, I understand that! The exhausting part. My boss has been wonderful with my onboarding, but my first two weeks felt like extended jet lag. It was much better this week, because I’m working on an actual task.

  78. Pancakes*

    I’m looking for some resume advice and maybe a little encouragement today.

    Basically, I quid my job and moved across the country in July. After a few months of looking for jobs (pretty selectively) I put my job search on hold while I worked as a freelance artist/pattern designer for products. The reasons for this were that I wasn’t really interested in many of the jobs on the market at the time, I enjoy art, and I was dealing with a medical issue that was not serious or dangerous, but benefited from me being able to have a flexible schedule for multiple doctors appointments per week.

    Freelance art isn’t able to sustain me full time long term, so I’m back to looking for jobs again and I’m wondering how to put freelancing on a resume. It isn’t really relevant to what I did previously or would be looking to do in the future (I was a program coordinator at a small nonprofit, wearing lots of hats and I would probably be looking for a similar role or something in social media/web management which was a big part of my role at my 9 to 5 job). Should I make a relevant experience section and another section for the freelance stuff (even though pretty much all of my other experience is “relevant”)? Should I explain my reasoning in my cover letters? Should I list some of my freelance clients (one of them would be pretty well known to someone in the local art/design scene, but not really to anyone else)?

    I have interviewed at some places that saw my art experience as a positive, and it has sharpened my knowledge of programs like Photoshop and Illustrator, which is a positive, but I think most of the kinds of jobs I’m looking for will see this 6 month period a strange deviation. Or am I just making too big a deal out of this?

    1. Emac*

      I think you’re over thinking it (this is coming from a chronic over thinker). I’d say just put it in the experience section, but maybe for accomplishments list things that would be more relevant for the types of jobs you want. I think freelancing would require you to have good time management and ability to prioritize multiple projects, which would be useful in the kind of jobs you’re interested in. I don’t know that listing the specific companies would help, unless they’re relevant (like they donate to the nonprofit you’re applying to or something). The number of clients you were working with and the size of the companies and/or scope of the project might be more useful.

      Also, how did you find/advertise for clients? Would what you did for that be relevant to social media jobs (figuring out the demographic to target and researching the best way and best places to do that, for example)?

      And I’d say explain why you chose to freelance in your cover letter. What you say here about not finding jobs that fit and needing a more flexible schedule for a time seem perfectly reasonable to me.

  79. SeekingBetter*

    Pretty bummed out right now. One of the places I’ve been doing freelance website updates for is going out of business at the end of this month. I’ve been with them since last July, so if it ends this month, that would mean I would have been doing this work for them for only 7 months. I was unemployed for most of last year, and my job before that lasted only 1 year and 7 months. Will I look like a job hopper on my resume? Should I put in parenthesis the reason why the freelance job ended?

    1. SL #2*

      My recommendation: list the job on your resume as “Freelance Website Updater” (or whatever you’d like to be called) and then list this job underneath that as a project of yours. Hiring managers will understand that freelancing means projects that only last a certain amount of time and the 7 months looks more normal than anything horrible.

  80. memyselfandi*

    I have a question about writing samples. A colleague just shared her approach with me which is to send the candidate an e-mail with a question they have to answer within 60 minutes. This is explained during the interview and the candidate picks their time. She asked me not to share the question, but it is fairly general “how would you” sort of question. She has a scoring rubric for the writing sample which includes things like understanding, critical thinking, grammar, etc. Has anyone else used this approach?

    1. Leatherwings*

      I’ve been on the applicant end of this before. I personally prefer to do this in an in-person interview itself (usually they just take me to a separate office and give me 30 minutes), rather than planning a separate time to do it from home.

    2. Chaordic One*

      At one place where I worked they would do this at an in-person interview, just like Leatherwings prefers. After taking such a test I was promoted to a particular position and I was told by my supervisor that the other finalist for the position used the computer to google how to do the writing assignment, then pretty much copied an answer from a website. (They had gotten I.T. involved and monitored what he did during his test.)

  81. AndersonDarling*

    So I was contacted by a recruiter about an interesting job. I asked for a job description, and he replied that they don’t have one. The recruiting group is working closely with the company to find the right professionals and are trying to keep it unofficial so there isn’t any documentation.
    It sounds like the sketchiest load of BS, but maybe that is a thing. I don’t know how recruiting works. Has anyone heard of such a hiring scheme?

    1. Temperance*

      I would say “it depends”. When I’ve come across this in the past, it usually meant telephone sales or terrible assistant-type jobs.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        This was for a developer job. Unfortunately, I haven’t had to do any job searching as a techie and it seems like a whole different world.

    3. LawCat*

      I am not sure what “trying to keep it unofficial” is supposed to mean. And how can the job sound interesting if they don’t have a description of it? Are they just relaying it verbally and refusing to send you any info about the position in writing? Sounds sketch to me.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        The initial Linkedin communication said they were looking for 2-3 ___ developers and insinuated the company they were trying to place them at, which is a big company n the region. The ____ is a special software that I work on, but “Developer” could mean a whole score of things in this context.
        I messaged back saying I was interested and asked for more detailed info, and that’s when they said didn’t have anything in writing. I’d need to call to discuss it.
        The recruiter’s correspondence was flooded with acronyms and unrelated info, like he was trying to inflate his importance. The more I think about it, the less I think it is legit. I may just connect with some of the developers at the big company and get on their radar.

        1. JHunz*

          If they’re not willing to provide you any information in writing, they’re probably just trying to get you into their system as a _____ developer that they can sell to whatever clients they do have (which may or may not include the company they were not willing to actually name). If you do call them, make sure you have a Google Voice number or something similar set up that you can give them instead of your actual phone number. If your real number gets added to a shared database you’ll be fielding calls literally forever.

          Being recruited in tech largely consists of ignoring tech recruiters who contact you with bad, non-relevant, non-local, non-specific, or non-interesting opportunities.

  82. The Other Dawn*

    Anyone know anything about short term disability? I’m having my excess skin removal surgery at the end of February (abdominoplasty with lipo, plus panniculectomy). I’ve never had to be out of work for a medical reason longer than a week, so I’ve always taken my sick time. This time, however, I’ll be out for a minimum of two weeks. I inquired with HR about time off and they mentioned STD so I won’t have to use up a ton of PTO. I can’t find any exclusions in the policy other than the standards, like self-inflicted injuries, acts of war, etc. The HR person I need to speak to isn’t in this week or next, unfortunately. Anyone know if my surgery would be covered under STD? I realize all policies are different, but wondering if any HR people here might be able to give me a general idea.

    1. Jenbug*

      When I had a breast reduction five years ago, I was able to get STD and was off for 4 weeks. Usually that kind of thing is handled by an outside company and you’ll need to provide documentation. Can you find out the name of the company that administers your plan? Someone there should be able to help you navigate the process.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Thanks. Yes, I know the name of the company. I didn’t even think about calling them! I’m thinking it will be covered, but would rather know as early as possible. It would really suck to have to use a bunch of PTO. I’ll also have to prepare for the fact that my income will be reduced for the weeks it’s in effect.

        1. Jenbug*

          Definitely better to prepare now! Especially because some of that paperwork can take forever to complete.

    2. Bad Candidate*

      I work for an insurance company that does group STD plans, though I don’t work in claims. Surgeries usually are covered like that. They only way I would think it might not be is if it’s some kind of pre-existing condition. And if you’ve been there long enough, that won’t matter. But I agree, call their customer service and ask. You may need your Group ID or policy number so they can look things up specific to your company’s policy. Also ask about an elimination period, most STD plans require you to be out 5 or more days before benefits are payable. AND make sure you’re enrolled. I work in enrollments and you would not believe how many times people or HR folks think the member is enrolled and they aren’t because forms weren’t sent right or we’re missing information that was never responded to by HR or whatever.

    3. memyselfandi*

      My apologies to all of you, but I work in public health and the acronym STD has a totally different meaning in my world. My brain almost got bent trying to figure out why the HR person was mentioning this topic, and how it might relate to breast reduction, although there is a tenuous connection there. We call it TDI where I come from – temporary disability insurance, just in case those three letters mean something else to someone out there.

  83. Looking for industry-specific advice (higher ed)*

    [Note–this is repost from last week, but I posted late in the day, so didn’t get much response.]

    Hi everyone. I am applying for jobs in higher-ed admin type roles, and I know this field is unique in some ways, so I’m looking for advice from other higher ed professionals about my application.

    I graduated with my bachelor’s 4 years ago, worked abroad for one year (ESL teacher), and have been working in higher-ed for the past 3 years. I am also working on my Master’s degree right now, and am 4 courses from completion. Here are my questions:

    1. Since I am still in my mid-twenties, does the 1-page resume rule apply to me? Or are higher ed positions more willing to read longer resumes (including volunteer work, research experience, etc)?

    2. During my undergrad, I got really good experience in a work-study position for my university (part-time during the academic year, full-time in summers). I worked for a specific department (think: financial aid), which is the type of position I’m applying for now. Can I use this experience on my resume and/or cover letter? Can I still use references from this work-study job?

    3. I had a very good GPA in my undergrad, and have a good GPA now for my Master’s as well. Is this something I can/should include on my resume?

    4. Do you think the hiring process for higher ed is generally more time-consuming/lengthy than other fields? If so, what would you estimate is an average amount of time from application to start date?

    Thanks for your help!

    1. Charlie*

      1. I really don’t think the one-page resume rule applies to you. Honestly, I think too much is made of that. I’d front-load the critical information, but otherwise, I think it’s okay to go into a second page.
      2. Yes, that’s a job as valid as any other, and as a new grad I wouldn’t minimize valid experience.
      3. Nope, nope, nope. I know it’s something that until very recently was of critical importance and pride to you, but a GPA has no place on a resume however good it was. A boss isn’t going to care.
      4. Yes, it takes forever. I’d guess 3 months, plus or minus a few.

      1. Looking for industry-specific advice (higher ed)*

        Thank you for your advice! It is hard to let go of the GPA, even though I do understand why it’s not relevant on a job application. I’m just wondering, though–if even higher ed jobs don’t care about GPAs, what exactly is the point in striving for good grades in school?

        1. Charlie*

          Yeah, I’ve been right there, it’s terribly frustrating to realize this. A GPA is relevant if you’re applying for an academic position, but on the admin side, it’s simply a professional role like any other. From the perspective of a hiring manager, performance in college classes isn’t really that similar to performance in a professional role, though. And it’s really not. If you graduated cum laude, or with some other honors, that’d be about as far as I’d go.

          1. Looking for industry-specific advice (higher ed)*

            Okay but (and I’m not arguing with your advice! Just trying to see your thoughts on this)…what if my admin role, while technically administrative, is “teacher-like” and some of my undergraduate classes are actually applicable to the position? I’m trying to remain anonymous on here, so it’s hard to think of a good example, but let’s say…I’m applying for an admin role in the Arab Studies department, and I had a 4.0 GPA with a double major in Arabic and International Relations. Is GPA relevant at that point?

            1. Charlie*

              Still nope. Absolutely mention the double major in your Education section, and bring it up in the interview, especially if you speak Arabic with some fluency. But bringing up the GPA would still be weird, unless you can specify “summa cum laude” or something indirect like that.

              I know. You worked your ass off for that 4.0 and now it doesn’t matter much. I really am sorry, I had the same thing happen after I finished my PhD. But you’re now in an area where work experience and time in position matters more than the academics.

              2. Chaordic One*

                I’ve applied for fairly low-level clerical positions at colleges, most recently at a 2-year community college, where they specifically asked for copies of my college transcripts. (If you didn’t have a college degree, they wanted high school transcripts.)

                After being out of school for a couple of decades I really didn’t think it was very relevant anymore (and my grades were not that good, either, I’m embarrassed to admit). I can’t tell you how many times I applied at one place and I could never even get an interview there. I suspect that either my grades were the problem or else that they had someone in mind for the job and were only advertising it as a legally required formality.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      1. I wouldn’t stress over one page but if you are looking at a Fin Aid role (for example), I’m not sure why mentioning research experience unless it was specific would help. Be strategic in what you put down.

      2. YES. OMG. YES. Resume and cover letter the heck out of this.

      3. No. Don’t do this.

      4. Yes. Much longer than anywhere else. Be patient. I’ve seen totally normally searches take 4-5 months from posting to start date.

      1. Looking for industry-specific advice (higher ed)*

        Thank you so much for your advice! I really appreciate it!

    3. Graciosa*

      As a hiring manager, I disagree with some of the comments about the one page resume rule. I absolutely expect early career employees to keep their resume to one page. A good one-page resume demonstrates that the applicant has the judgment to identify what needs to be included in that limited real estate and discard the rest.

      After a decade of career-related work history, I think it can expand to two *full* pages of relevant material. I have never seen a resume that was more than one page (but not two full pages) that wouldn’t have been better at just one page. That’s also true of a lot of resumes that are two full pages, but there are people who have enough significant career accomplishments for whom a two-page resume makes sense.

      1. Charlie*

        Have you hired in higher education? Maybe it’s just because some professors have 20-page curricula vitae, but a longer and more detailed resume is much more the norm in that context.

        I concur with the above that all experience should be relevant to the nature of the position.

        1. Graciosa*

          Yes, actually I have in the past (although not my current role). I answered based on the admin aspect and stand by that answer, although I do agree that the educational roles are an exception to the general rule and require lengthy CVs with lots of publications. I haven’t seen that approach succeed hiring for staff positions in the same organizations.

          1. Charlie*

            That’s fair. I saw a fair number of 1 1/2 page resumes for lab techs and so on, perhaps I just got used to it. If it’s all relevant and I’m not hunting for relevancy, I’m cool with it.

            1. Looking for industry-specific advice (higher ed)*

              Thank you for all your advice! I really appreciate it!

    4. Emac*

      Just a suggestion on getting your foot in the door for higher ed – are you working right now and in the position where you could be a temp for awhile, or will you be once you finish your Masters? I live in an area that has a lot of big universities and the biggest ones seem to either have their own internal recruiters for temp positions or contract with a specific temp agency, who might have one recruiter dedicated to jobs at that university. You might be able to call HR and get this information.

      I suggest it because that’s how I got an administrative job at a major university, after applying directly to a few open positions and hearing nothing. Well, that’s not actually true, once I got a card about 3 or 4 months after submitting my application saying that my application had been received. And out of the 8 other administrative assistance in my department, 7 of them also started out as temps.

  84. wine_lover*

    I have been working as a contract employee remotely with a company for almost a year now and they just sent out an email yesterday that they’re closing up and it’s the end for them. I used the money from that job to bridge the gap financially for myself and obviously had no idea this was coming so I am officially stressed out and hoping I can find something else quick to fill that role! *fingers crossed*

  85. Lusamine*

    Is there a way I can politely discourage an older employee from joking about my salary? I am a temp and being paid barely enough to make rent, so I find it very annoying when my much older, much better paid coworker jokes about how rich I am. He does this very consistently, too; pretty much every time he sees me. He also infers that I should waste company time so that they’ll pay me longer, keeping me in this temporary position.

    I can’t seem to get him to shut up or go away in general, no matter how politely I try to tell him that, but I really can’t stand being reminded frequently of my pitiful salary. Any advice?

    1. Manders*

      Ugh, that’s awful.

      I’d be tempted in that position to respond by complaining about my money woes in excruciating detail. But, uh, that probably won’t help the situation. I once responded to a coworker who was ribbing me about how much time off I was taking with, “I’m visiting my sick mother. I haven’t had a real vacation in years.” Awkward city, population the two of us.

    2. regina phalange*

      How ANNOYING. Have you tried saying, “I don’t discuss my personal financial situation at work. Please do not bring it up again?” Sometimes straightforward works. I had to do that recently for a different situation but just basically said, “You are making me very uncomfortable, please don’t mention XYZ again,” and the coworker was profusely apologetic. Furthermore, what is even prompting these jokes to begin with? I know one of my bosses joked once he was paying me too much b/c I was using my PTO to travel a lot, but he wasn’t, and he knew he wasn’t, and I rolled my eyes, but was annoyed all the same since he had totally low balled me in salary negotiations.

    3. Charlie*

      I mean, you could be super blunt: “Actually, I barely make rent. Thanks for reminding me of that so very often.” Or, perhaps a little subtler: “I’m a temp, so my lifestyle is pretty modest. I’d really appreciate it if you could stop bringing it up, as it makes me very uncomfortable.”

      I just cannot fathom why people find it so acceptable to discuss third-rail topics like politics and finances at work. It’s such a massive etiquette fail I just can’t wrap my head around it. It’s almost like you have to be as rude as they are just to get them to knock it off.

      2. CM*

        I like these suggestions.

        Here’s another one: “I’d like you to stop bringing up my salary.” And the next time, “Please stop talking about my salary.” And the next time, “I really don’t want to hear any more jokes about my salary.” Et cetera.

        Or, “I don’t find it funny when you joke about how rich I am, since I get paid barely enough to make rent.”

        Or a softer approach, “You might not realize it, but your comments about my salary make me uncomfortable, especially since as a temp I struggle to pay the bills.”

      3. caryatis*

        I wouldn’t mention any problems you have paying bills at work. People like me are going to think, wow, this person is irresponsible. I have a feeling commenters are going to think I’m being harsh, but I’m not the only one who thinks living within your means is not optional. Save your complaints about money for your spouse/best friend/financial counselor.

        1. jamlady*

          Not every wage is a liveable wage. I would never think this about a co-worker who can’t pay their bills. Plus, they could be dealing with financial stresses I know nothing about. Definitely harsh.

        2. Ultraviolet*

          This comment seems to imply that the only way someone could be struggling financially is if they are irresponsible with money. But that’s patently false. It’s not so much harsh as detached from reality.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            mmm. yeah. The first thing that jumps into my mind is medical bills from a catastrophic illness. This can knock the most fiscally responsible people down the ladder by a rung or two or ten. Some people do not know how fortunate they are NOT to understand how this works.

    4. ZVA*

      This is so weird and annoying of him. Every time he sees you?! Next time he does this, you might try saying “I’ve noticed that you joke about my salary a lot [or practically every time you see me]—why is that?” Maybe drawing his attention to the behavior might be enough to make him stop? If not, or if he won’t explain himself, or whatever, you could follow up with something like “Well, it makes me uncomfortable, so I’d appreciate it if you would stop.”

      1. Charlie*

        I never default to the “why do you ask?” or “why is that?” question, but it’s a brilliant tool to deal with the rude, and I should use it more.

        1. ZVA*

          Honestly I don’t default to it either, but I want to try and use it more myself… I think it can be a good and non-confrontational way of putting the weirdness or rudeness or whatever else back on the person who’s being weird or rude.

    5. Ultraviolet*

      I suggest, “Hey, I know you’re joking, but you actually bring up my salary a lot and I’m finding it painful because my financial situation is really difficult right now. Can we joke about something else?” (You could substitute “stressful” for “painful” if that feels more appropriate.)

      As someone is no doubt about to point out, you’re entitled to say something less conciliatory if you’d rather. But I would recommend starting with a light touch since this is a sort of tricky situation.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe try to reframe this as he could be actually slamming the company not you. He could know what you are paid and feel that it’s unfair.

      I like the why question, as in “I noticed you say this a lot and I was wondering why.”

      I might consider saying something like, “Do you have an idea of how to fix this, is that why you keep mentioning it?”

      Don’t be afraid to gently bounce the ball back into his court where he has to actually think about what he is saying.

    7. Artemesia*

      Have you squared off and said ‘I don’t understand why you take such delight in needling me about how little money I have to live on. Why are you doing that?’ blah blah blah ‘Well would you please stop since it makes me feel terrible.

    8. Girasol*

      Do you suppose he’s jealous because he knows that the company is paying more per hour for contract services than he’s getting? I’ve heard a lot of water cooler complaints from people who have seen the bill for the new contractor: how come contractors get so much and we long time loyal employees don’t? Of course contract companies scrape a profit off the top so you don’t get all that’s paid for your service, and chances are you’re paying a lot for benefits that regular employees get as part of their package. So they’re better off but they don’t realize it. That said, I’m not sure how you can put misinformed jealousy to rest.

    9. Raia*

      First of all yay username! Second of all, I would do everything do to not let this coworker know any details about my salary and how I use it. That’s my business, and an arrogant coworker could use this as ammo to be more personally irritating. If he wants to talk salary so bad, maybe you could shift the conversation to talking about his salary? Ask him how he gets away with wasting company time and if anyone has noticed his output is low. Verbally ponder why he drives an average car and ask if he’s paying off massive debt, or why he can’t afford a fancy expensive car yet. Make him uncomfortable enough that *he* doesn’t want to talk to *you*, which means diverting the focus of the conversation entirely away from you.

      This assumes he is the arrogant kind of coworker, instead of the oblivious kind that would probably be less consistent in trying to have this conversation with you. Best of luck!

  86. Nancy*

    After having to wait 2 weeks for winter break to be over, I finally got a call for an in-person interview for a job. I’m already working on pulling questions together to work on answering and going through my closet for the right outfit. However, they threw a little hitch in my giddy up. I asked if I needed to bring anything to the interview and they said, “No, but there will be a writing exercise.” I was caught off guard (and recovering from a respiratory infection) so I didn’t ask any follow-up questions. Anyone have any advice on how to prepare for this?
    Background: Its a visual arts center and its an community engagement position. They talked a lot about social media (which I have background in) and writing articles. I’m actually a great writer, but not the best editor. I’ve been working on getting better and knowing my strengths and weaknesses. I actually used Alison’s advice when they asked about weakness in the phone interview and said that I started off with a creative background in writing (theatre) and had been working on making my writing style more professional. I let them know that I had recently talked to my boss about how I was doing and she relayed that I was much improved and doing very well.

    1. Artemesia*

      I’d go in with an idea in your head — maybe something you have already written about — in case they don’t provide structure. I would also think about the social media presence they have and have in my head roughed out: an article, a facebook post i.e. a couple of thoughts about presentation you are likely to be asked to do so you just have to adapt the material they give you as you have already thought about similar issues and how to format what you would be asked to do.

      1. Nancy*

        Thank you so much. I’ve been doing my best to look at everything they have on their website and social media so I have context. And I created a “portfolio” with a recent letter, two client emails, a successful grant I wrote (short), and two visual documents with collages of my photography work and social media post. Hopefully, if I bomb the writing assignment for whatever reason, the portfolio can redeem me.

  87. Good_Intentions*

    When to follow-up with HR

    Yesterday, I received a call from a local municipality’s HR department about a job I applied for in mid-December.

    The young HR representative told me to expect an email with all the interview details–address, interviewers, materials needed, etc.–by close of business Thursday. I have yet to receive anything.

    So, my question is when do I follow up to confirm the time, date and location of the interview? Should I give HR until close of business Monday to send the information? Our verbal agreement was for a first round face-to-face interview scheduled for later in the week.

    Please let me know your thoughts. I am interested in pursuing the position but uncertain of the details at this time.

    Many thanks!

    1. Robin*

      I would call to follow up Monday (or today if you are worried about your schedule filling up).

      I had a similar experience, except in my case we verbally scheduled the interview time and the HR assistant said she would send details for the location, etc by e-mail. I never received that e-mail and fortunately knew where to go as I had been to the location several times before, but I did leave a message for her two days before the interview inquiring about the missing e-mail. Turns out, she didn’t get the message until after the interview and had mis-typed my email address. She was mortified, but no harm done. That may be the case here, or the HR assistant may have gotten swamped with something urgent. I’d say something like, “I just wanted to follow up with you since I haven’t received your e-mail and my schedule is filling up for the rest of the week. Can we set an interview time now so I can make sure I’m available?”

    2. Sadsack*

      This doesn’t address your question, but I am curious about your mentioning that the hr assistant is young. Dies that have any bearing in the situation?

      I am not trying to start any argument! I just noticed the age reference and wondered if you meant to include it or if you didn’t even realize it.

      1. Good_Intentions*

        Sadsack:

        I appreciate your comment and want to address it. I incorrectly concluded that the HR assistant was young because of her high pitched voice and the disorganized way in which she conducted herself during our brief conversation.

        After seeing your response to my question, I read her LinkedIn profile and learned that she’s held the position for nearly a decade and is older than I am. Her rushed manner and youthful voice could be attributed to many things, so I will refrain from drawing further conclusions based on scant evidence.

        **I did want to mention something very quickly, as long as we’re being pedantic. In your second sentence you wrote “Dies” instead of “Does.” It’s a minor thing, but I did want to make note of it.

  88. I'm Not Phyllis*

    I’ve been at my current job a little less than two years. I really like it – the CEO is awesome and I have great coworkers. After the hell I went through in my last job, these aren’t things I take for granted.

    I’m an executive assistant and make a reasonable salary for the work that I do, which is pretty administrative and not very policy-driven. The problem is that I don’t make enough. My financial situation has changed since I started this job and – to be blunt – I need a higher salary. This won’t be possible at my current place of work – raises are given to management at the same level as staff – 1% of the average salary. I know EAs that make twice as much as I do (so I know more money is possible) in different industries, but I struggle with feeling like I’m “good enough” for those positions. I know the requirements are different.

    So … is two years too soon to start looking? And how do I get myself up to the level that could earn a big salary bump? What makes your EA awesome?

    1. Jadelyn*

      Two years is not too soon, unless you’re trying to clean up a job-hopping history. Generally the sentiment around these parts seems to be that if you’ve got a solid work history consisting of multi-year stays at old jobs, you can start looking for a new job after about a year without making your resume look bad.

      As far as what you can do…is there any way you can take on more policy-related/less-administrative project type duties at your current work so you’ve got experience in those areas when you start looking? How are your analysis skills? The best EAs I’ve seen provided specifically decision-making support in addition to administrative support – sometimes to the exclusion of administrative support entirely – and generally that’s done by doing research, data collection, and preliminary analysis of issues so the CEO (or whoever you support) doesn’t have to do that groundwork before they can consider their plan of action for the situation.

  89. Jadelyn*

    Advice needed on behalf of my mom, re “managing up” and going over a manager’s head to deal with his performance issues.

    Her work just a few months ago hired a fancy new manager, Ken, to oversee her area, which previously consisted of her and one admin to support her, attached to a closely-related team and under that team’s manager. Ken has turned out to be a complete dingus. He blows things out of proportion, freaks out over tiny things going wrong – for example, they run the training department for a software sales company which sells training to users of the software along with the software licenses. He was at one of their classrooms and was messing with the equipment, then forgot to or didn’t bother to (nobody is sure which) put everything back together. So the following day, a dozen users show up for this training their companies paid hundreds of dollars for, and none of the computers are connected to the network, the projector is unplugged, it’s a mess and everyone had to scramble to deal with it. In response, Ken tried to convince everyone that they need a weekly meeting with IT to check on the status of the classrooms and make sure everything’s always ready. Because *he* messed up *once* – this is the first time anything like that has happened – he wanted to create a whole new weekly multidepartment meeting!

    It’s gotten so bad, my mom has had multiple coworkers from other teams come directly to her for things her manager should be handling, because “I know you have the information or can get it for me, and I don’t want to deal with Ken because he’ll make a fuss over it.”

    I think that’s something my mom should pass along to her grandboss. She’s resisting because she feels like it would be “going over Ken’s head”. I’m saying that since it’s reached a point where other departments are explicitly avoiding him, that’s a performance issue on his part that grandboss needs to know about so he can work with Ken on it. My other suggestion was to casually drop a mention of one of those comments to her former manager (who still manages the closely-related team she had been part of previously) as a “lol can you believe what Fergus said? Crazy, right?” because we know that her old manager is close with grandboss and the information could make its way to where it needs to be through that route.

    So what do you guys think she should do? Talk to grandboss directly? Go around Ken by way of her former manager? Drop it and assume that grandboss already knows the issue?

    1. Rex*

      When those other depts come to her, can she refer them to grandboss? Or at least say something like, I can’t keep helping you, could let your boss know you’re having these problems? And let their bosses kick it up the chain. Depending on how hierarchical her company is.

      1. Sadsack*

        This is just what I was going to suggest. Stop helping the others and tell them to talk to grandboss or have their managers talk to him. She is being put in a bad spot by being asked to go around her boss to help others.

  90. ANON*

    Hi:

    Has anyone had any success in helping friends who keep getting fired? I have two friends who have been fired multiple times over the past three years. Both are intelligent and personally nice, but aren’t figuring out work norms/culture issues and getting fired.

    Friend 1: PhD with two published books, can’t get or keep a job teaching, even at a HS. She’s in her 40s and never really worked that much (long time in PhD program) and has rigid ideas on how to approach work. Doesn’t understand about being someone people want to work with/giving back to even a less than stellar employer what they want. Her real forte is in dogged research, but that’s not an option. Not getting the social cues.

    Friend 2: Super social and connected, but thinks her ideas are always the best. Constantly complaining and pointing out what is wrong in a situation. Again, a version of rigidity that doesn’t work in an office.

    They both are single and both need work to pay their bills. I’ve suggested AAM and Evil HR Lady to understand what really happens at work (not their ideas as to how it should work). They are both burning bridges and accumulating a bad resume (6 weeks at a job, 6 months). I am seriously worried and have suggested career coaches.

    Anyone helped a friend who was in a career death spiral? What was helpful?

    1. Sophie Winston*

      Accept that you can only control your own behavior.

      Seriously. There is nothing more you can do. If they are not open to change, nothing you suggest will have any effect. This is not your circus.

      1. ZVA*

        YES to this. I know you mean well, ANON, but you’ve done what you can here, and unless these friends specifically come to you asking for advice, you need to move on. These are their careers, not yours, and you’ll save yourself a lot of grief if you can accept that.

        1. ANON*

          But, they do come with their tales of job woes. The social one more often, but also the other one.

          I do know that I can only control me, and I am not looking to control them. I think of it more as, how honest can this conversation be? If they were a work colleague, I would venture a more direct conversation. I might ask what they are learning about what does and doesn’t work for them in a job/how did this experience shape their approach going forward. I might be blunter and say that jobs are about 1) can you do the work and 2) if you can get along with the people above and below you. What isn’t working out in these jobs–work or the approach?

          1. Kai*

            If you’re close, I think a gentle but honest conversation about what you’ve noticed would certainly be appropriate.

              1. ZVA*

                Yeah, I second what Kai said. If they’re coming to you for help & you feel comfortable being honest about what you’ve observed, I think it would be a kind thing to do. And I like your approach of phrasing it as questions (what are they learning about what does or doesn’t work for them). That might prompt them to think more deeply about their own roles in their woes…

          2. Natalie*

            If you’re having the same conversations over and over and they don’t change, I think it’s also okay to decide you’re not going to have this conversation anymore. Exactly how you effect this will depend on the nature of them and of your friendship, but Captain Awkward has some good suggestions in this post on a depressed friend. https://captainawkward.com/2015/08/28/739-i-love-my-friend-but-their-jerkbrain-is-draining-the-life-out-of-our-conversations/

          3. anonstronaut*

            Are they asking for advice, or are they venting? I think there is a big difference in how you approach a friend who wants advice but won’t take it when offered (like saying that you’ve given your best advice and unfortunately don’t have any new ideas on the subject) vs people who just want to vent (where you might gently suggest that they can vent for 10 minutes when you first get together, but then they need to drop it).

          4. Not So NewReader*

            How honest can this conversation be? In my mind, VERY honest. If someone is going to tie up my time with their problems, refuse my advice AND not find their own advice then I can be VERY, VERY honest as opposed to just very honest.

            The thing that I wonder about is if you say, “Part of holding down a job is your willingness to get along with other people”, will they understand that? It seems not. It seems that they lack the skill sets to know what to do to attempt to get along with other people.

            Life is all trade offs. Last week I mention a friend who did the party hardy scene and now in her mid 40s she cannot prepare a holiday meal. The process throws her because she has never done it. In a similar manner, if I found myself having custody of a toddler, I am in trouble. I have never raised a kid. Your friends got education but not job experience. What we went through in our teens and twenties learning about jobs is something that your friend has yet to experience. They are still back at that stage of learning.

            I would ask them baseline questions such as, “Do you want to fix this?” and “What are you willing to do to fix this?” Then listen.

            At some point, you will need to figure out if their venting to you is allowing them to avoid seeking solutions. Sympathy works until it doesn’t. Check to see if you could be enabling them to stay stuck.

    2. Manders*

      Oh boy, do I have experience with #1. My partner recently left a PhD program and went into teaching. The process of reassuring him that it was OK to leave the program to teach high school was–and I am absolutely not being hyperbolic here–like deprogramming him from a cult. Seriously, I looked up some lists of common practices in cults, and his PhD program fit almost every item on the list.

      Something that helped him out a lot was speaking with other people who had been in his situation. I could give him advice, but I had never felt the kind of pressure he was under. He ended up connecting with other people who’d both graduated and dropped out of his program and were now teaching high school or community college. Those people were his role models and gave him great advice when he was ready to leave. At the end of the day, I could be supportive and remind him to take care of himself, but I had a very different career trajectory and I wasn’t the person who could be his role model.

      Of course, my partner is very socially adept, loves teaching, and hates research. That made his landing softer once he made that leap. Maybe your friend should look specifically for former academics who aren’t teachers now?

      1. ANON*

        I feel you on the PhD issue. My husband has his and works in college administration, not in academia. He’s one of the few people in his program that is working and for him it was a totally found vocation. The craziness we’ve seen his cohort get into because academia is the One True Career is mind-blowing. Why not just accept that there are no jobs !?!?

        My PhD friend has the opposite problem. She applies to seasonal work at Target and gets rejected. I have said that academics/her program people should be helping her, but they are in Europe (where she can’t work) and seem to have washed their hands of her.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Deprogramming him from a cult. omg. Well this touches on something that I have wondered about and here you have typed it. If you can expand on this I would appreciate, but if you can’t I most certainly understand.

    3. Artemesia*

      Another discouraging word. You get one shot to lay out what you see if they ask and to suggest resources but there isn’t much you can do beyond that. I have an acquaintance who is very talented and is in the process of blowing up yet another good job. She doesn’t control her emotions on the job and acts like a big baby when she doesn’t get her way and so often her bosses are just poised for the moment she does something they can fire her for. She just lost a promotion and instead of talking to her boss about what she needs to do to be ready for the next promotion has been pouting and complaining about how unfair it is and giving people the cold shoulder. I’d say she is out for the next promotion as a result. (and she may well be right that it was ‘unfair’ this time — but next time overlooking her will be perfectly fair) People who don’t learn from feedback, don’t learn from feedback. If you have discussed this with them and they don’t change their behavior, they are cooking their own goose.

  91. TotesMaGoats*

    Can I get some good vibes for a response from the recruiter sooner rather than later today? She said she’d get back to me today and she’s been great about sticking to timelines but I want to know something NOW. And I want to get out of here. This was the worst break ever. I thought about work every single day. I couldn’t disconnect. So, badly need to get out of here and this job is so promising. I just need to hear something.

    1. Emac*

      I’ll send you good vibes, if you send me some! Though I doubt I’ll hear anything today since I just applied yesterday, but sooner than 2 months from now (which is how long it took the last place I applied to contact me) would be nice.

      If we get enough good vibes going back and forth, they’ll sort of reverberate and grow into a good vibe explosion, right?

  92. Crylo Ren*

    We’ve been trying to fill a role (a manager I’d report to) for the past 6 months. It’s a unicorn role – a fairly niche specialty, plus there are a ton of expectations for the person in the role to basically build out a program from scratch with little to no prior direction or knowledge.

    The other day we interviewed a great candidate. I reeeeally liked her – she had a ton of relevant experience (rare for this role), was a great personality fit, and selfishly, I appreciated that she took the time to speak about her passion for mentoring and empowering her teams. I’ve been without a real manager for the 9 months I’ve been in my current role and while I think I’ve done pretty well, working without direction has been an uphill battle. I’m pretty desperate to be properly managed.

    Everyone on the hiring panel loved her and the recruiter reached out pretty quickly to offer her the role…which she then declined because she decided the expectations were a lot more intense than what she was looking for. I don’t blame her at all (I myself am looking for an easier role)…but I’m still more disappointed than I expected to be. :/

    1. Charlie*

      First, I love your username. I’m not sold on Darth Emo as the new villain.

      Second, I just had this happen too. It’s frustrating.

    2. Rex*

      Since she’s not in the running for the role any more, is it worth reaching out to her and saying, sorry to hear it didn’t work out, but I was really impressed with your perspective on this work, would love to get coffee and get your thoughts on XXX?

      1. Crylo Ren*

        That’s a good idea. She did mention that she might still be open to a temporary or part-time consulting role. So maybe she is still mostly open to the job duties, just not at the 110% capacity that we probably led her to believe the job requires…? I may give this a shot!

  93. Ren*

    I saw an article this morning about a syndicate of 22 out of 35 employees (all in one department) winning $55mil in an Australian lottery and my first thought was ‘their poor manager’. I must spend too much time on here. Just wondering how people would deal with a situation like that as a manager? I know it’s super unlikely that your team will win $2.2mil each but even wins of a few thousand each could cause all kinds of drama.

    1. Graciosa*

      I’ve seen one situation where essentially all the employees won a jackpot. They agreed on a staggered schedule for quitting that would allow the manager to bring replacements on board and train them in a methodical way.

      They were very clear that the owner had been a good boss and they were not going to drive him out of business by quitting all together and immediately – one of the unexpected benefits of being a good manager.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        That is an impressive story. We usually hear of the lottery winners who just walk or want to just walk.

  94. Just a Girl*

    I’ve been debating to write something for weeks because I really don’t want to sound whiney. I’m grateful for a job and generally love everyone I work with. Here goes…

    I was originally hired 4 months ago at a small, newish company (21 people, 17 of which have only been here less than a year) to be the admin assist to the office manager. Within three weeks of being hired, the two owners realized I was capable of much more than just light filing and answering the phones. (I have years of management experience and a Master’s degree…) So they moved me into a modified HR/ Exec position and gave me a 25% raise. They saw my work ethic, organizational skills, attention to detail, and efficiency. Along with the promotion, they reorganized the company and moved me “above” the office manager. The hierarchy now is: the two owners, the general manager, me, and then the office manager. Despite my title not having “manager” in it, they do consider me one of the “bosses” (their words) to the rest of the employees. The employees (including the office manager) reports to me, and I report to the owners and general manager.

    Bless the office manager’s heart: she tries so hard. But she’s often very spacey and distracted, takes significantly longer to work on any projects than any one else in the office, and makes fairly large mistakes that are critical to the company. The owners have a loyalty to her so they’ll never fire her, even when her errors cost them thousands and thousands of dollars.

    The problem is, despite her knowing about my promotion, she still treats me like I’m her admin assist. She questions everything I do, tries to micromanage me, and constantly checks my work. My job duties include: time cards, payroll, invoicing clients, paying bills, keeping the owner’s schedules and travel plans, enforcing policies and procedures [I actually WROTE the company employee handbook because they didn’t have one], and monitoring the AR for the sales team. Most of those are things the owners have explicitly told me they don’t want her doing or helping me do. Multiple times a day, the office manager will walk over to my desk and say “So, what are you working on now?”. I casually say, “Oh, just something for so-and-so” with minimal details and leave it at that. But she pries and noses around, looks over my shoulder to read my emails, goes through my files, etc. I really like her as a person and I want to be supportive of her in her job duties.

    How on earth do I tell her to maybe give me my space to work? I’ve brought it up several times to the owners, suggesting maybe they need to have a conversation with her. They’ve talked to her twice but nothing has changed. Ideas?

    1. Charlie*

      I honestly think this needs a firm hand. “Brunhilde, since you’re now my direct report and the designated point person for (duty), it’s no longer appropriate for you to be reading my emails/going through my files/trying to manage my workday. I like you and enjoy working with you, but the nature of our working relationship has changed, and I need you to respect that and to respect me.”

      1. Charlie*

        Don’t be harsh, that can be delivered warmly but firmly. But fundamentally, she’s being insubordinate, and she’s treating her now-boss like an underling. That’s really not cool, and it’s going to hugely undermine her ability to work with you soon.

      2. Emac*

        I like this approach. I think saying “Why do you ask?” could be useful, but in light of the fact that she isn’t really doing a great job at her own job, I think it needs to be addressed more directly. I mean, it’s no wonder that she takes longer at her own tasks when she’s trying to micromanage yours, too!

        Would it be appropriate to make this a bigger discussion about ways that she needs to improve her own performance and she can do that better if she stops nosing around your stuff?

        1. Sadsack*

          Yes, I am wondering if OP has had any discussions concerning the office manager’s performance.

          1. Just a Girl*

            When I’ve talked to her about her performance, she says she “knows she’s been distracted, etc”. I encourage her to focus on her work, and finish her projects. I give her ideas of how to be productive. But it doesn’t seem to help.

            When I’ve brought it up with the owners, they understand my point of view, tell me that they know she’s “going through a lot”, but still note it in her file for her performance reviews. Again, though, there’s a loyalty there so she’ll have a job here as long as she wants, barring she doesn’t do anything illegal.

            1. Charlie*

              How much of a manager are you allowed to be with her? I think this is a different issue than the nosiness and boundary-crossing. Both need to be addressed.

              1. Just a Girl*

                My title doesn’t have “manager” in it, and so even though she’s supposed to report to me, she doesn’t. I encourage her in more of a co-worker sort of way vs. a I’m your boss sort of way. I feel like the owners could do a better job at creating the environment of hierarchy. They’re trying, but as I am still pretty new, maybe it just hasn’t been successful with the office manager. When I first changed into the new position, a lot of the employees had a negative attitude towards me… “Who does she think she is?” etc. That’s gotten better, for sure, because they see my value and realize I’m advocating FOR them. Its a weird dynamic here, definitely…

                1. Observer*

                  You need to be more of a manager. And also, STOP answering her questions. Put your computer files where she can’t read them (a folder that she doesn’t have read access to.) When she reads over your shoulder, ask her to stop.

                  Let your bosses know that you are doing this. You’re not asking permission, you’re just looping them in.

              2. Just a Girl*

                I also think its hilarious to note that the one thing she is in charge of is the cleaning schedule. She puts me on bathrooms EVERY week. LOL!

      3. Just a Girl*

        I definitely like the word “respect” here! Because she is showing a constant lack of respect since my job has changed. I definitely see that she feels threatened by me, which was never my intention. I assure her, as do the owners, that her job is safe, and that we just need to work together.

        1. Charlie*

          I have compassion for her position. No matter how nice you are, it smarts when someone gets promoted from under you to over you, particularly when you kinda know it’s for a good reason. But you don’t need to be so compassionate that you let her walk on you.

          1. Just a Girl*

            I do too! Like I said, I really like her and want to support her as best as I can. It was never my intention to undermine her. I made it very clear to the owners that I didn’t want the office manager to feel like I had some alternative motive. But I also told them I wasn’t willing to dumb myself down or work lazier to make the office manager feel better.

    2. LawCat*

      Instead of responding to, “So, what are you working on now?” with “Oh, just something for so-and-so [plus minimal details]”, I suggest, “I’m working on X, why do you ask?” Any time she questions what you are up to, always add, “Why do you ask?” Maybe there is some legitimate reason you don’t know of and maybe there isn’t, but it puts the ball firmly back in her court to explain why she’s nosing around.

      1. Charlie*

        I like this too. I wouldn’t even say what you’re working on, just a polite “Why do you ask?”

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Oh, just something for so-and-so” minimizes what you’re doing, in my opinion. I’d give her a succinct answer like “Payroll” or a vague answer like “a million things at once!” And when she looks over your shoulder or goes through your files, pointedly ask her “Is there something you’re looking for? Those are my invoice files, there shouldn’t be anything in there that you need.”

      1. Charlie*

        I like the “Is there something you’re looking for, because that’s mine” approach in that scenario, because again it puts here on the spot.

      2. Just a Girl*

        That’s true. I’ve been passively discreet, but maybe I need a bit more of an authoritative tone that allows her to see I’m doing work that she’s not involved with.

    4. animaniactoo*

      Another heading-off comment when she asks what you’re working on would be “Did you need something?” and then either handle her question/issue or if she says “No, just curious” you can redirect back with “Nothing that concerns you, thanks for checking in.”

      Pretty much, you need to stonewall her out of actually succeeding in getting info from you, while being available and friendly. If she gets huffy about the “Nothing that concerns you”, that’s when you can draw the line and say “Jane, some of the things I work on are confidential. I know that you used to handle them, but you’re not involved in them now and therefore it’s not appropriate for me to talk to you about it and I need you to stop checking in all the time about what I’m working on.” Do it in your friendliest manner, and push back also on her looking over your shoulder/going through your files when you catch her doing it. “Excuse me, please give me some room here/don’t read my screen” and back it up with the same “confidential” reason (because really, if she’s not to be involved in time cards and payroll and things like that, those things SHOULD be confidential and she is not eligible to know).

      1. Just a Girl*

        This is the tricky part. I have had similar conversations: “I know you used to handle this. I’ll ask you if I have any questions, but for now I don’t. Thanks though.” and “I don’t really need your help for this. Don’t you have ______ to work on?”

        However, maybe that’s just not direct or authoritative enough…?

        Whenever I step away from my desk, I use the Mac “hot corner” to put my computer to the screen saver which is password protected. But when she comes and sits by me to “work”, she’ll look at my computer and the files out on my desk. Apparently, the owners have also noticed her nosy-ness and have insisted that whenever they aren’t there, their office doors are locked because she’ll just go in and snoop. WTH?

        1. Charlie*

          I don’t think that’s direct enough. “I don’t need help” should be enough, but she’s hearing “oh, I think I’ve got it, thanks boss!” instead of the intended message. Like I said before, I think this needs a firm “Brunhilde, I realize you used to handle this, but this is now my area of responsibility, and you’re no longer my supervisor. I need you to respect our new working relationship, and leave this to me.”

          And the snooping needs to get nipped right in the bud. “Brunhilde, these are confidential payroll files, and I really cannot allow you to look them over. Please go around to the other side of the desk.” “Brunhilde, I deal with confidential information pretty often, and I really have you reading over my shoulder.”

        2. animaniactoo*

          Ask her if there’s a reason she needs to work there. And then help her find a solution that does not involve her ever sitting by you. Again, because you are working on confidential stuff and you need to be able to work on it without taking the chance that it will be seen by someone else.

          It sounds like it is time to pull her aside and say “Jane, you’ve asked me several times about this stuff and I’ve reassured you that I’m fine. I need you to understand that because it’s confidential and you’re no longer working on it, it’s inappropriate for me to talk to you about what I’m working on unless it involves you directly.”

        3. Rusty Shackelford*

          Apparently, the owners have also noticed her nosy-ness and have insisted that whenever they aren’t there, their office doors are locked because she’ll just go in and snoop. WTH?

          So it’s not just you. That’s a whole different problem, then. It’s not that she feels like these tasks still belong to her, it’s just that she’s nosy. And the people who need to stop that are her bosses.

    5. Someone*

      Or, “Sorry, I’m busy now, I really don’t have time to chat. Do you need my help with something?”

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Reading down through, I think it might be time to look at job descriptions. Update hers and review it with her.

      Does she get an annual review? Who will be doing that? Is there a form in place or do you need to create one? When you review the job description with her you could also review her evaluation form so she will know what to expect.

      Nothing says, “dawn of a new era” like implementing processes and checks.

      1. Em too*

        Agreed. She reports to you now, right? So, if you’re not already, explicitly setting up performance/development reviews (quarterly or even monthly), or weekly/monthly catch-ups about her work if that makes more sense, will firstly remind her that you are her manager, and secondly be an opportunity to set out clearly that this is one of the things you want her to change.

    7. Door Builder*

      Any time she’s being nosy with you, she’s away from her own tasks. “I’m busy with my own work. Aren’t there tasks you need to finish before the workday ends?”
      Repeat as necessary, constantly redirecting her back to her own job.

  95. nep*

    Apologies if this has been covered recently — About a resume for a position in a field I worked in for years, but it’s been a couple years…Do I have a section ‘Relevant Experience’ and list only jobs related to what I’m applying for, explaining the change in fields in my cover letter? Or do I list current job even though not at all related?
    Thanks for any insights, suggestions.

    1. Emac*

      Would the job before your current job be relevant? I think in that case, I’d keep the current job as the first one but just don’t put many details; it would really just be to show that there are no gaps in your work history.

      I had a similar dilemma recently, though in my case, the most relevant job is almost 10 years ago but I’ve also used some of the skills needed for the new field in my current and last jobs, at least a little. I ended up using a Relevant Experience section and putting my current and last job, focusing just on how I used the skills related to the job I was applying for. Then I moved the next oldest job (that I was in for ~3 years) to an Other Experience section and put the most relevant job from ~10 years ago as the third job in the Relevant Experience section. And also including a summary section right at the top with my total years of experience in relevant jobs and other details that I thought the hiring manager would look for right away.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      You could put current job under “other experience”. I would feel it necessary to tie it together in the cover letter somehow. “While I am currently employed at Ace Popcorn my goal is to get back to the Cheese Puffs field that I so enjoyed.”

  96. Taylor Swift*

    Oh, I do have a question related to getting a new job: In my current position there is never enough work for me to do. (This is what motivated my search for a new one. I hate feeling unproductive and bored every day.) I’m worried my bad habits — like reading the internet all day — are going to be hard to break in my new job, where I suspect that I will have much more work and the work will be much more challenging. Has anybody done this kind of transition before? Was it easy to get over bad habits in a new environment, or did it take a concentrated effort?

    1. Charlie*

      I’ve been there a few times. It wasn’t a big problem. The big thing is to get to work and start working. If you get to work, make a cup of coffee, read a few blogs, and all of a sudden it’s 11, you’re screwed.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Agreed. I had an incredibly boring job and switched to one that was way too busy, and I managed eventually, but I did find that I missed moments where I could read blogs. When I started my current job, I was coming off of 4 months of unemployment and thought I would get in that same trap. I’ve been lucky in that I’ve been easing in, so I do read a bit between tasks, but of course the tasks always get priority.

  97. Emac*

    Is there any non-braggy way of showing a manager something that you’ve improved, but that they would never use/look at unless explicitly asked to do so?

    Some background – I have a spreadsheet that I am 100% in charge of managing and extracting data from for reports. When I inherited the spreadsheet, it was set up so I would basically have to do a general filter and then hand count (or do a simple sum formula) to get the numbers needed. And then that would have to be re-done for the next report. It really wasn’t a huge time waste – there are only about 3-4 reports a year – but it was annoying to me. I created a sort of dashboard where I can just type in the date period needed and it displays the results. I was pretty proud of it, but right now I’m the only one who sees/knows about it!

    Reading that again, it sounds like I’m just fishing for praise, but in my mind, it’s also that Excel skills are something that could be really useful to my agency and that not a lot of people here have. Just this morning, I had to tell my boss to scroll to the left in a spreadsheet to see the data, after he complained that it was blank. If TPTB knew I could do this kind of thing, it’s possible that there might be more tasks I could do using this ability, which would help the agency and give me more examples to use as I’m currently job searching for positions where this is a bigger part of the job.

    1. fposte*

      In general, if your relationship with your boss is functional, it’s perfectly legitimate to say “Hey, boss, can I talk to you about this cool thing I developed that could be useful to the company?” With a boss that might not appreciate the value due to his own unfamiliarity, I might instead say “Hey, can I send you a memo about this cool spreadsheet thing I developed?” and send him an outline of what you did and its merits and likely time saved, with an example attached. He may never look at the example but the memo should get the point across.

      1. Emac*

        That… makes so much sense. I’m always amazed at how complicated I can make things when a simple “Hey, I did this thing” is all I really need. Thanks! I think I’ll bring it up at my next 1 on 1.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Sometimes, it’s really okay to brag “I did this thing that makes work life easier, I’m so in love with my new little setup”. In part because it also brings the enthusiasm for the initiative that you’ve shown with doing it, which can be a real benefit. But if you really don’t want to go that route, I think you could also cover this under a general e-mail to advise that in case someone needs to access this while you’re out for whatever reason, you have “updated the spreadsheet so that it is possible to do X in a simpler and more efficient way. Here are the instructions for how to do X.”

      1. Emac*

        I was thinking of putting it in a ‘in case I’m out, this is how to do this now’ way. I think my natural style would be more towards the enthusiasm route, but unfortunately my current supervisor is like the enthusiasm killer, like parents crashing a game of spin the bottle.

    3. Joshua*

      My organization is really into “Lean” (eliminating waste, streamlining, etc.). If your organization has a similar organization wide program, you can talk about your position specific accomplishments in that context. “I did X, which saves me 30 minutes a month, helping eliminate waste!”

      We are also into succession planning, so we try to have very thorough procedures written down and then evaluated by coworkers fairly frequently. If your boss is your backup then that’s a really good context to discuss improvements since you can say that you just want to make sure your boss knows how to do it in case you win the lottery, and look! It’s new and improved!

      But, realistically you shouldn’t even need the above contexts if you have a good relationship. Just make an improvement and show it off during a slow time or doing a job performance review. If she’s smart she’ll think of you when she has something similar to do. In the first six months of my current job I went from random new hire brought on for writing skills, to Excel and Access super-expert just because I did something a little faster and always helped someone when they had questions.

      You can also think about ways you can improve more important (to your manager) things using your skills and try them out yourself if you have free time. I recommend doing your tweaking on a copy of the original file so you don’t accidentally break anything. If you can show your boss that you thought of something that directly makes her life easier, she’ll remember it for a long time!

      1. Emac*

        “Lean” and forward thinking succession planning both sound great… but are pretty much unheard of at my small nonprofit.

        I like the idea of finding something that would be important to her and doing something similar. Next free time I get, I’ll try that!

  98. Offering to be a mentor?*

    There’s lots of discussion about asking folks to mentor you, but what if you’re the senior person wanting to offer?

    There’s a junior person in my company that’s great, but struggling in a couple areas I’m pretty good at. I’d like to offer to mentor him, but is that an OK thing to do? If so, how do you go about it? He’s nowhere near my reporting chain, but has a few cross functional projects where I’m ultimately responsible for his work. My main concern is that, because I’m in a compliance role, he wouldn’t feel he could say no.

    Any suggestions?

    2. animaniactoo*

      Generally when I’m offering something that I feel somebody may feel uncomfortable turning down, I work to make it very very clear that it is perfectly fine to turn it down, it’s just something I am willing to do if they want it. Nothing will be held against them if they don’t.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Not sure if this is realistic for your setting but can you send out a general email saying that if any one would like to beef up on X or Y they should come see you?

  99. NPOQueen*

    In order to receive the 2% cost of living raise at my company, you had to start working there before October 1st. I started on October 5th, so I missed out by less than a week. This year we’re having merit raises. During my performance review, would it be fair for me to ask my boss for the merit raise plus the 2% cost of living? I don’t think he realizes that I missed out on it, since I’m the only person on the team who did.

    Along the same vein, when asking for raises, do you ask for it as a general concept, a percentage, or as an amount? For example, would I say, “I’d like a raise/I’d like a 8% raise/ I’d like a $5,000 raise?” I’m already working on a document to detail my accomplishments for the last year to prove why I deserve more money.

    1. Judy*

      I’m somewhat surprised of the October 1 date. I’ve never received a raise until I’ve been in a job for a year at the time of annual raises. (All of my positions I’ve started in May thru September, and so I’ve never received a raise until I’ve been there 15-19 months.) My experience has always been in more corporate environments, though.

      If you started on October 5, do you have accomplishments that prove you deserve more money?

      1. NPOQueen*

        I think because the raise was cost-of-living and not merit, they just did it then. And I should have mentioned, this was October 2015, so now I’ve been here for more than a year. The raises came about eight months after that October deadline, so I have no idea why they settled on that arbitrary date.

  100. First Time Manager*

    Seasoned managers:

    How do you distinguish between someone who makes too many mistakes and someone who’s still on a learning curve and making honest mistakes along the way? In which case, how do you determine how long that learning curve should be?

    I want to be fair and reasonable, but I also don’t want to be that manager who enables a subpar employee or is too slow of a learner.

    1. Charlie*

      What kind of mistakes are they? I always try to really look at the nature of the mistake. I just had to let someone go because they continued to make errors that were avoidable and careless – not changing the project name on a statement of work, wrong phone numbers, outdated contract numbers, that kind of thing. That’s just stuff that a reasonably conscientious person would avoid as a matter of course. On the flipside, if it’s new mistakes every time, or errors attributable to lack of experience or ignorance with a complex process, that speaks to being still on the learning curve.

    2. Newish Reader*

      Are you seeing progress? Do they continue to make the same mistakes (never learning from the earlier ones) or are they new mistakes with new tasks/responsibilities?

      Do they take ownership of the mistakes and demonstrate a willingness and ability to find ways to mitigate and minimize future mistakes?

    3. animaniactoo*

      Too many mistakes: Could have been solved with a little bit of critical thinking, continually repeats the same mistake more than once, does not ask for help vs allowing mistake to happen, is blase about the mistakes happening.

      Learning curve: Rarely repeats the same (or related coulda seen it coming) mistakes more than once, reasonable to understand how the mistake was made, shows concern and asks for help to prevent at least some of them before they’re made, but not so many that you feel like you’re handholding them all the way through the job.

      Timeframe: For the first kind, an immediate conversation “This level of errors (detail the kinds) is far too high, if there is not significant improvement within the next (very short term), we may need to let you go.” And then oh yes, unless they get it together fast let them go because you wouldn’t solve that and they are unlikely to progress past it significantly. For the second kind, it depends. How long do you reasonably have for them to come up to speed (that can actually be achieved by a human…)?

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Just making too many mistakes: This person may show signs of other sloppiness such as losing important phone numbers or forgetting her login password on numerous occasions.
      The mistakes can be the same one or the same type AND happening over and over. For example: In creating a list of names you can count on her to misspell one or more names each time she creates a list. While it’s not always the same names that are misspelled, you can count on some names to be misspelled. This person is not getting the overarching idea that EVERY name needs to be spelled correctly.

      Take a look at attitude, is she rattled and apologetic OR does she seem disconnected or making excuses?

      It’s no one factor, it’s several factors combined. For example, you could have a person who makes excuses but never makes the same mistake twice. I think that is less worrisome than a person who makes excuses and keeps making the same mistakes over an over. With the person who never makes the same mistake twice, I at least know I can show her and it won’t happen again.

      As a manager you have a fair idea of what a person needs to know to get through the day, you know the baselines that need to be in place. If an employee can’t turn a computer on day 1, that could be nervousness. If an employee cannot turn a computer on day 3, that is a yellow flag. If an employee cannot turn a computer on by day 5, this is a person who may not be able to do the job. Yes, BTDT. It’s almost a knee-jerk reaction, you catch yourself saying, “If it is this difficult to turn on a computer how will she ever be able to create a word document, which is a regular requirement of her job?

      With people who are making honest mistakes they will try to set up something so they remember the correct way the next time. This could be a silly rhyme that they use, it could be a Post-It Note on their monitor, or they even may work with a notebook to write these things down.

      I saw a lot of nervousness with people when I found a mistake. They were worried how I would react because they did not know me and they were worried about how big the mistake was, would they be able to fix it. I learned that nervous people actually CARE. Some nervousness is actually a good sign. I taught people how to fix their own mistakes. Because of the nature of our work this took time. But as we went along I saw the nervousness go down and the number of mistakes go down. People who are going to succeed in the job eventually calm themselves down and learn the job.

      A short list for her:
      Is she making the same mistakes or a variation of the same mistakes each time?
      What is she doing to help herself not make mistakes?
      How does she respond when you correct her?
      What else you know about her work so far?

      A short list for you:
      Has she actually been taught what to do? Tricky question because we can assign people to teach the newbie and the person we assigned does not bother or does not do a good job.

      Do you/someone else show her how to fix her own mistakes? Do you stress the importance of constantly double checking the work?

      Are you jumpy or frustrated? Employees will tend to mirror us. If you are worried and tense they can quickly become worried and tense. Worried and tense employees make more mistakes, not less.

      This is my biggie question here: Am I doing more for this person than I would be will to do for a group of 10-15 people? If I cannot put that much time/effort into all 15 people then I probably should not put it into her. This means I may be too involved and I need to start setting expectations and letting her determine her own destiny.

      My personal belief is most people WANT to do a good job. This frame of reference has helped me a lot. Even if the person does not do a good job, I can understand that they reeeally want to and the work is just not in their natural abilities/to their liking/whatever.

    5. TG*

      Are they making the same mistakes over and over? That probably means that they either haven’t been properly instructed or they haven’t been taking good notes and trying to catch on. As a person learns a system, they will make mistakes and that can be a great learning aid if the person is truly open to learning and mastering the process. If someone is making the same basic mistakes a couple of years in (like a coworker in my office) there is either a problem with giving the employee proper training or the tools to do the job, or that employee isn’t interested or capable of learning the process.

  101. Delta Delta*

    Can anyone provide some tips on fixing my whole life? (Hoping that generated some giggles)

    I left a long-term job last week with no job set up. I saved up, knowing leaving was a possibility, so I have a bit of a financial cushion, and my spouse works, so it’s not as if we are without an income. I left because although I loved my actual work, the workplace itself was no longer a place I could stay. I’m on Day 4 of my gap and I’m climbing the walls. I’m searching for jobs, which is something I haven’t done in nearly 15 years, and as an avid AAM reader, I’m afraid I’m doing it wrong or don’t know how since things have changed since I last had to look for a job. I have been doing quite a bit of networking, and I believe I could likely land a position within a month or so. All this having been said, I am not so sure I want to jump directly back in to what I was doing before. I am an attorney, so in theory, I could “hang a shingle” and practice law out of my kitchen on my own.

    For folks who have been in a similar situation, how did you handle this? How did you figure out what the right next step was? How did you keep yourself from going completely cuckoo-bananas (a technical legal term)? I feel like I am not useful, and I am afraid that if I wait too long whatever social/political capital I have accrued over the last 15 years may fall by the wayside. Thanks in advance for comments!

    1. Manders*

      I’m not an attorney, but I work in legal marketing. My advice: if you’re considering hanging that shingle, do a loooooot of research about how people in your field usually handle marketing. Look at both the field as a whole, and your specific geographic area. Do tons of research on the competition. Learn what the common scams and black hat tactics are so you don’t end up paying a fly-by-night agency thousands of dollars for stuff that doesn’t work at all or will only work until Google wises up and penalizes you for it.

      See if you can find a mastermind group of legal marketers who live in different states (so you can all share tips without competing for the same client pool).

      1. Delta Delta*

        This is a great tip – thank you! Luckily, I am in a very small legal market (as in, I personally know everyone in the bar who does the work I know how to do), so even low-level marketing will stand out. I already have a law-based twitter account (which I have to get better about updating), and I contribute very regularly to an online publication that is re-published by a statewide news organization. I think even if I built a square space or wix site, for my purposes, this could work out. The firm I recently left consulted with a couple different legal marketing firms, paid a lot of money for it, and just ended up with kind of an ugly website. I wonder if they talked to one of the kinds of agencies you mentioned.

        1. Manders*

          Yeah, there are certainly legitimate legal marketing firms out there, but the problem is that lawyers rarely have the time to learn enough about marketing to tell a good firm from a lousy one. It’s also totally possible that your old firm’s ugly site performed very well, possibly even better than a site with a cleaner and more modern look. Web design is weird that way.

          If you’re savvy enough to build a site yourself, you have a good network, and you’re in a small market, you probably don’t need to worry too much about falling for a scam.

    2. Emac*

      I’m not a lawyer, but are you thinking about changing areas of law or changing to something completely unrelated? If you’re thinking of changing areas of law, could you do some pro bono work in different areas? Actually, that could work if you’re looking for something unrelated too – are there volunteer positions that would give you exposure to fields you’re interested in? That has the benefit of getting you out of the house, networking more, making you structure your time more, and giving you something to put on your resume during your gap time.

      1. Delta Delta*

        These are great tips. I was thinking about volunteering, exactly for the reasons you’ve mentioned. I’m not 100% sure if I want to keep doing what I had been doing. In all honesty, I am very good at what I was doing, but I don’t necessarily think I’d be sad if I switched and did something else.

    3. Eric*

      I had a lengthy period of unemployment about 4-5 years ago. The worst part was the lack of structure. If you don’t do stuff on a schedule, you naturally start to get stressed IME. Only advice would be to do things that keep you on a schedule, like coffee with the spouse every morning, maybe you walk through the park every afternoon, or something else like that. Maybe meetup groups for attorneys or other legal professionals in your area would be an option?

      1. Delta Delta*

        It’s the structure, or lack of it, that is driving me crazy. I’ve been good about getting up early like I had been, and making sure I’m up and dressed. I don’t turn on the radio or television, since I don’t want to get into the habit of feeling like I’m on vacation. I’ve also been good about making sure I get out – I’ve gone to the gym every day since I quit. I know that’s not exactly the same, but at least I’m making myself get out.

        Luckily, I’m scheduled to attend a big bar association conference next weekend. That should help with networking and possibly land me some work. We’ll see how it goes.

    4. Emac*

      I just had another thought – do you live near where you went to law school? Or any law school? Maybe you could volunteer to be a mentor for law students. Part of my job now is to give immigrants career advice, and it really has given me a lot of insight into what I like to do for work as well. And I end up researching careers that I had never thought about.

      1. Delta Delta*

        I do live near a law school; I’m an adjunct professor there some semesters (although not right now). This is a good idea – I could be doing more with that school, and possibly another in the area in a mentoring-type capacity. Your work sounds really interesting!

  102. Robin*

    Government worker here, so this is my version of the asking for advice to advocate for a raise. I have submitted paperwork to the central HR office for a classification study, essentially asking for them to look at my work and see if I should be classified differently. I’m currently in an administrative class but doing program coordination work, so I’d like my job title and my pay to reflect that. Well, I just scheduled a desk audit for Monday afternoon with the HR person who will be determining if my role has changed significantly to justify a change of class. Unfortunately, while my role has definitely grown since my predecessor left, the job was mis-classified as administrative the last time it was re-classed (it has been about providing services to the public, which somehow got conflated with administrative work).

    Anyway, I do have concrete examples of the way my work has grown from providing services to also helping the rest of the agency formulate policy and procedures and collaborating with outside agencies on projects. But I’m curious if any other public employees have gone through something similar and have advice for navigating?

    1. Christy*

      Nope. Did you get your supervisor’s buy in first? Our upper management loves to like, carefully calculate desk audits so that there is no option but to reclass higher. However, if you go it alone without their buy in, you’re not as likely to be successful, and we’ve even had it happen that someone got reclassed DOWN and then all their peers did too. All because they wanted to be reclassed up.

      So, make sure you’re 1000% prepared for the desk audit.

    2. Claudia M.*

      I work for state govt., and was successful in a desk audit classification change/promotion last year.

      Is your current position union? Because working outside of class is a big no-no for union rep positions. And worth looking in to if you have any trouble.

      The desk audit required 6 pages of position explanation. And interviews. And then 6 months later they pulled the trigger and provided back pay.

      Biggest tip: if your position has a position requirements document (most govt. positions should, also sometimes called “job expectations” or listed on the job bulletin as “usual tasks”) then print this document. Also print the one for the job you say you’re doing but are not being paid for. You need to then list the tasks you normally do, and how those tasks fall under the required tasks of the position you want.

      This comparison was VERY important in our desk audit process. They didn’t seem to place as much weight on anything else.

      Be prepared to be VERY patient though. It takes forever for most HRs to make decisions related to govt. classifications.

  103. Cranberry*

    So recently at work, one of my coworkers in a different department (we don’t work together at all) has seemed overly interested in me (stopping me in the hallways to chat, asking if I am interested in hanging out sometime, etc). It’s been pretty stressful for me to deal with- I hate having awkward conversations and being in situations like this, so even though my coworker hasn’t necessarily done anything wrong, it’s still super annoying!
    Fortunately, this person is leaving the company soon, so the problem will hopefully solve itself!
    Has anyone else had success with gracefully saying “thanks but no thanks” to coworkers who seem interested in you for more than business reasons?

    1. Delta Delta*

      Does this seem along the lines of trying to ask you out, or is it more trying to make friends? I wonder if the fact the person is leaving could be him or her trying to do some last-minute networking?

      1. Cranberry*

        It’s definitely asking out, or at least a more social connection. This started before they left, and they have no reason to network with me (literally completely different jobs).

        They’re nice enough, but… I just am not interested.

        I realize the answer to this is pretty straightforward and I know what I should do, but it’s definitely not fun!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Why not go with, “I understand you are leaving us and I wish you the best in your future endeavors.”
      This might trigger her to say, “Well, I’d like us to get together for coffee once in a while and catch up.”

      Then it’s your turn. You have an opportunity to get that “no, thanks” in. I’d go with something like “Aww, that’s really nice of you. But I am [tied up because of ill family member; or a homebody and not much on going out].”

  104. AyBeeCee*

    I’m thinking of applying for an administration type job in a medical setting. I’m a good candidate on the administration side but there’s almost nothing on my resume that would appeal to the medical setting part of it. I’ve always been very into science, though – I grew up hearing a certain amount of medical jargon because my parents worked in medical-adjacent professions (if that makes sense) and talked about work at the dinner table a lot. I grew up watching (and still enjoy watching) science documentaries including medically-geared ones. If I could go back in time I would give my teenage self a couple of books that might have made me pursue a career in virology (I ended up reading them after I had already graduated from college and thought it was just the coolest thing ever).

    I have no idea how to convey that interest and enthusiasm in a cover letter, though, to make up for the fact that it’s completely not apparent in my resume. Any ideas?

    1. Emac*

      I had a kind of similar question a couple of weeks ago and I think the advice I got applies to you, too – what you wrote here sounds like a pretty good way to show that enthusiasm!

    2. Red Reader*

      In my medical administration field — your interest would be great, but you wouldn’t make it past HR without at least having taken a course in medical terminology, and some areas would also require either experience with or education about billing practices and regulations. Many community colleges and even some hospitals offer them — is that an option for you?

    3. Chaordic One*

      It really depends on where you live and what the competition is like for other administration jobs in the medical field. I have had several interviews and one offer for an administrative job in the medical field, but I live in a rather rural area where there wasn’t a whole lot of competition and they promised to provide on the job training.

      (I turned the job down because, while it was only part-time, I would have had to have been “on call” and ready to fill in if one of the other people working in the office was out. It didn’t match up well with my other part-time job.)

  105. caledonia*

    I’m just wondering if someone is being condesending to you on the phone – I was made to feel like I was stupid by their attitude – what is an appropriate response for me to take given it’s a its work situation?

    I work at a university in the UK. they aren’t yet students but applicants for our courses (admissions).

    1. Charlie*

      I really don’t think you can really respond to it unless they’re being actively hostile or confrontational. Sorry. I’m always a fan of icy politeness in that situation – precise articulation, flat tone, scrupulously polite.

      1. ZVA*

        I agree. Nothing you can do; just keep it polite and professional, maybe a bit cool if you want to, and move on. (Also, bear in mind that it may not have been their intention to make you feel that way, if that helps.)

      2. caledonia*

        Ooh yes I had forgotten the icy tone of politeness! It’s been a while since I’ve had such a call so am all out of practice.

        Thanks Charlie and ZVA!

        1. ZVA*

          I totally understand—that kind of thing can really blindside you when it doesn’t happen often! Good luck :)

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I also work at a university and this happens to me EVERY time I have to jump on the phones to help lower the number of callers. You can’t say anything; it’s a customer service situation. Kill them with kindness.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have defused irritated callers by saying things like:

      I understand that you are upset, let’s see what we can do here.
      Or
      Yep, that sounds upsetting to me, I would be upset in your shoes also.

      Sometimes repeating back the nature of their concern gets them to dial back their attitude.
      “Oh, okay, Jim has not returned your phone call and you are concerned because it’s been a few days. Let me look into that.”

      Sometimes you take a preemptive step, “Yes, you are correct in assuming I have not seen this particular problem before, but I think I know what we can do here.”
      I use “we” as it has a collaborative feel to it, “WE are going to solve your problem”.

    4. Iris Carpenter*

      Do you know the persons identity?
      Will you ever have anything to do with this person if they are admitted to your institution/department? For instance, will any of their paperwork ever cross your desk (such as a request for university accommodation)?

      If the answer to these two questions is yes, then icy politeness in public to their face (as Charlie suggests), minimum co-operation in private when their back is turned. Their paperwork is mysteriously delayed or missing, & whatever the equivalent is in your computerized processes.

  106. Anon 2*

    I recently had to complete an application for an potential employer that required a minimum acceptable salary. Along with requesting my salary expectations and salary history.

    Why do employers do this? One I can’t tell you what the minimally acceptable salary is without knowing the types of benefits that are offered, or knowing more about the position (this information was requested before an interview). Additionally, why on earth would I tell you my bottom line? It drives me batty. Especially for what seems like otherwise solid employers.

    2. Jenbug*

      Probably because they don’t want to waste your time and theirs if the budget only allows them to pay 30k a year and you know you can’t accept anything less than 50k a year.

        1. Comp Professional*

          The problem with this is everyone sees a range and assumes they will be at the top of the range, or that the organization will make an exception because they are an exceptional candidate.

          2. fposte*

            And people hiring should be perfectly capable of articulating what puts people where in the range. It’s a lot fairer to expect people hiring to be tough enough to tell people why they’re in the middle than for applicants to spend a lot of time on a job without a price tag.

            1. BRR*

              Yup! If a hiring manager can’t deliver that information I always wonder if they are super conflict averse.

            2. Anon 2*

              Agreed. And as an update to this situation, in this case they were clearly using this to help determine the salary for the position. I interviewed (and it was a very short and very casual interview for the level of position, which would typically be an all day affair and take weeks to schedule), and discovered that they have an internal candidate already doing the job, and they basically told me that they were just interviewing to see if there was someone better out there. I appreciate the honestly, but it definitely provided an explanation for the interview (which was more about picking my brain), and the information they were requesting on their application.

              From my perspective they were clearly trying to gather new ideas for the position from outsiders, and then using their salary histories and minimums to determine the salary for their internal candidate. So not an organization that seems to know what they are doing. It’s a pity because they seem like a decent organization otherwise.

    3. Comp Professional*

      I’ve never understood pushback on this. If I’m applying to a job, there is a minimum amount of salary I would be willing to accept. Even if the benefits were amazing, I wouldn’t take a job that is say a 10k decrease from my current one. The company is trying to ensure they don’t waste their time, but also so they don’t waste your time interviewing you if it won’t work out.

  107. SL #2*

    Happy new year, everyone! What’s one tip/trick/bit of advice that you’ve used from AAM in 2016 that isn’t resume/interview advice?

    For me, it was negotiation tactics during annual reviews. I had my first real one this past summer and I came in armed with all my info and records of the work I’d taken on, only to have my manager preempt it with a very generous raise (more than I’d planned on asking for). But I feel much more prepared for this year’s, and all future annual reviews as well, just from reading AAM.

    1. Delta Delta*

      This is sort of general, but since I’ve been reading AAM I’ve gotten some ideas about what good management looks like (and what it doesn’t look like). Things that I might not have noticed before reading AAM are now really apparent to me, and have helped guide me in how I reacted to certain things.

    2. Mimmy*

      I’ve tried to deflect others’ job search advice that counters what I’ve read here, like following up on a job application despite it being generally frowned upon (at a LARGE UNIVERSITY no less!!). I don’t come out and say “I’ve read on AAM…” but I can never think of any plausible reasons other then “well, it just not my style…”. I can see how many think that this shows an extra level of interest, but I cannot imagine an entire university HR department having to field those inquiries, or even if I tracked down the actual hiring manager.

      1. Delta Delta*

        Yes – this too! I had to literally scream at someone “it’s not done that way anymore!” where the application very clearly said not to follow up. Person kept saying, “well, it can’t hurt to call” except that if they tell you not to, there’s probably a reason. This is to someone who has not had to apply for a job since 1995 and has no idea that things have changed.

    3. Newish Reader*

      Focusing on the impact to the workload/work environment instead of the employee behavior. Just this week I had a call from a colleague seeking advice about a situation with one of their employees. In the past, my advice would most likely have been along the lines of “just tell them this is the way it needs to be.” Now, after reading AAM, I had much more constructive advice about framing the conversation around the impact to workload and what the expectations are.

    4. L10N heart*

      One of my biggest AAM takeaways is stepping back and separating an emotional response from a response that will actually help you get what you want. Useful in all areas of life!

    5. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I think a lot of it just sinks in by reading the responses provided by everyone.

      For example – I found out that part of my new role is having to manage juniors on projects. No problem, only I found this out after I had been assigned a project with a junior and was confused why she was looking to me for guidance all.the.time. I was starting to feel flustered and ready to shut her out and just do it all myself when a little voice in the back of my head reminded me to stop, remember when you were that person and when someone above you treated you like that, what is some of the guidance I have read about providing structure for someone to do work for you, how to keep someone to schedule and the phrasing to use.

      Essentially- I now have the ability to remain calm when managing someone elses work and provide coaching where needed, using phrasing that is much softer than it would have been in the past but also NOT being too permissive and holding them to task. Worked great!

  108. Amy M in HR*

    Soooo late in the game here but we’ll see if anyone scrolls this far down! I am in HR and we are contemplating using a blood pressure machine on employees who would like their BP taken (we have many field and plant employees who work hard and we would like to make sure they do not over-exert themselves or aggravate existing conditions). None of us have any kind of medical background so I am wondering if there are any issues with doing this. We would merely take the employee’s BP (at their request, definitely not mandatory) and give them the reading…with no advice whatsoever.
    I would assume that as we are not medical professionals, none of this could be recorded in their medical files, it is really just for the employee’s own personal information. What issues do you all see in this?

    1. Manders*

      Is it possible to get one of those machines that does the reading automatically? I’ve seen them in pharmacies–you just insert your arm, wait for the machine to do its thing, and look at the readout which is positioned so that no one else can see it.

      I wouldn’t offer to run around putting the cuffs on people. That requires some special training and I think it’s just too invasive for an HR person to do that.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Those things are horribly inaccurate.

        I personally would not want my work doing this. Better to provide good benefits including healthcare and time to recover when sick and go to the doctor if I felt anything might be wrong.

    2. Leatherwings*

      I’m not in HR and don’t know anything about the legalities here, but I would personally feel really uncomfortable having the company monitor/report this guys blood pressure. Too much pressure and responsibility to make sure it’s done correctly everytime.

      Can you buy a blood pressure monitoring device that he can use on his own? That way nobody is responsible for taking this guy’s BP.

    3. Robin*

      I don’t have any ideas about legal issues, but I don’t love the idea of people at work knowing medical information about me (even somewhat innocuous info like a BP reading). Could you just purchase one of the easy to use home blood pressure measuring devices and have it available to employees to use themselves, rather than having an HR person use it on them? I would think making medical info gathering as private as possible would encourage it’s use.

      1. Amy M in HR*

        Robin, I agree 100% with your last sentence. My fear is that employees WILL think we are tracking it and it will somehow be used against them, and will then not want it done, and that is certainly not what we are trying to do here. I do believe it will be a device that the employee could actually use themselves, and now in typing this I’m thinking it might be a good idea to have a quick training session with the employees on how to use the device themselves and then we can take ourselves out of it altogether.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      Why not get one of those free-standing machines and let them monitor their BP themselves? Having HR do it seems to open a big can of worms.

    5. Delta Delta*

      I don’t love this, mostly because everybody is different. It seems like your heart is in the right place, but a reading outside the “normal” range could be a flag both to the worker and to the company. I don’t think I’d want my employer knowing that particular piece of information about me. I happen to have historically low – almost too low – blood pressure. I’d hate to have an employer decide that maybe I need to be let go or have my insurance changed because of this one particular factor about myself.

      1. Amy M in HR*

        Agreed. My fear is that employees will feel the way you do. I personally always have a normal reading, and so wouldn’t even know what would be considered a high or low reading, but I think really we just need to figure out how to put this in the employees’ hands and keep HR out of it!

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          but I think really we just need to figure out how to put this in the employees’ hands and keep HR out of it!

          Or… you don’t. Why is it an issue?

    6. Emilia Bedelia*

      Can you partner with a health clinic in the area who will handle this for you?
      Or perhaps get a nurse/medical professional who will come in and do blood pressure readings one day? (I’m thinking of how my company did flu shots)
      If it’s not administered by someone at work, I think it will help emphasize that it’s not tracked or recorded at all by you.

    7. Audiophile*

      I’m struggling to understand the purpose of taking someone’s blood pressure and not having any follow up to it.

      What if they have a high blood pressure reading? Are you just going to say “Roy, it’s looking a little high today. Well, anyway, have a nice day.”?

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        Reminds me of that dental monitor commercial. “I’m not a doctor. I’m a blood pressure monitor. I just tell you when your blood pressure is high.”

      2. Amy M in HR*

        It would be done as a courtesy. Many of our positions are labor intensive and/or stress inducing. It would allow employees to self monitor and then make a more informed decision as to whether they might need to take it easy, see a doctor, etc. It is in no way meant for us to advise or make recommendations to employees regarding their readings. Many people in general suffer from high blood pressure so this would just give them easier access to monitor that.
        From an HR perspective is it just another piece to our employee health and wellness program.

    8. Ultraviolet*

      I’m not a lawyer, and I would suggest consulting one. Things I would ask:

      -What kind of responsibility would we [legally] have to make sure the machine is always in good condition? Can we be liable if the machine is malfunctioning and someone decides whether to work/rest based on a faulty reading and has a heart attack or other emergency?

      -How does our liability change based on who takes whose BP reading? That is, if Employee A operates the machine to take Employee B’s blood pressure, is the employer liable for having trained Employee A properly? Is it different if A takes their own blood pressure?

      -What if you measured an employee’s blood pressure and found it really alarmingly high or low, but they wanted to ignore it and go back to work? Would you be liable if they had an emergency? Would it be legal for you to tell them they had to take an unpaid break? (And is making those decisions something your staff signed up for?) Would you be obligated to try to prevent them from driving home in that condition?

      -If an employee was terminated and decided to sue with the claim that they were unfairly fired for health reasons in violation of the ADA, how would it affect the case if that employee was known to have often measured their blood pressure? Often taken breaks based on the blood pressure reading?

      Also, did one of the field and plant employees suggest this to you, or was it suggested by someone outside that group? If the former, I would wonder whether they’re feeling like they can’t take a break when they need to without something “authoritative” like a blood pressure reading to justify it. That would need looking into.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I have very strong feelings about companies butting into my health care.

      If you do this please do not think that all or even most of your employees will think “oh my company is so wonderful”. That is not what they think.

      If you want to get a blood pressure cuff and have it on hand to use while waiting for EMTs that is fine. Don’t set it up expecting people to rush over and use it.

      If your actual goal is to help reduce stress at work, then reduce the things that cause stress. Measuring people’s stress loads does nothing to reduce their stress loads. Yeah, so you prove they are stressed, that means the company has an even greater responsibility to make jobs less stressful.

  109. Eric*

    I’m thinking about using my company’s EAP. I usually go see a therapist regularly for anxiety issues, but recently I haven’t been able to see him because of insurance issues (what he accepts has changed, everything’s fine on my end).

    My boss knows about my anxiety and panic disorders and it’s not an issue. But I still feel a little uncomfortable with seeking help through the company’s services. On the other hand, my anxiety levels are high enough right now (unrelated to work) that it’s affecting my focus at work and not doing anything is only making the anxiety worse.

    Has anyone used an EAP? What was it like? Was it expensive? What info gets back to HR and your manager?

    1. printrovert*

      My employer offers EAP as a free benefit and I think in certain cases insurance may be able to cover additional help. I used it to get some legal answers a few months ago and it put my mind at ease. I haven’t used it for health-related purposes yet, but my previous experience was a positive one so I wouldn’t hesitate to use it again. All information should be confidential and can’t be released to your employer without your expressed consent. I would check your company policy to see if it says something different. Good luck!

      1. Eric*

        That’s really reassuring. I’ve had some talks about what available with my boss and our HR rep and they’re professional. But there’s always questions like what if it’s a slow day and someone gets curious and starts snooping.

        When it came to legal, was your benefit just a free consultation? I’m a little curious about that because my anxiety is about moving. Lots of gnawing thoughts about what if I can’t make rent somehow (even though that’s not going to be a problem). Talking to a lawyer would probably be an even bigger help.

        1. Colette*

          As I understand it, HR will know that X number of people used the EAP, but not who or why. So there’s nothing interesting to snoop into.

        2. printrovert*

          It is more of a referral. You contact the provider and it sets up a session for you. Because mine was non-health related and just a QA, I didn’t get a face-to-face session but over-the-phone counseling. As Colette pointed out, employers get information on the number of employees using EAP but not the details–information is confidential and from what I understand Privacy Act protected. Check your employee manual/benefits information if you need to, but I am fairly certain of this.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Usually the point of an EAP is free help through crisis points. So expense should be the least of your worries. Generally you will speak to someone on the phone and get a referral for a few sessions with an in-person counselor, if that’s the sort of help you’re seeking.

    3. dawbs*

      I used mine at my former job a few years ago. I’d do it again and I’ve reccomended it.

      My husband was hospitalized for a mental health crisis and I was a a bit crisis-ed out and needed someplace to organize my crap.

      I don’t think I paid anything out of pocket. Probably the most helpful thing they did on day 1 was be a clearinghouse for other support in the area–NAMI, AA, Narc Anon, etc. They also helped us find docs fo my husband post-hospitilzation that worked w/ our insurance–something I’d been struggling w/ on my own.

      After day 1, I got to have weekly or bi-weekly counseling appts. with a social worker, who was awesome and helped a lot.

      I was working at the time for a mid-size college–so we had a pretty good HR, but it was also a gossipy environment–I didn’t hear boo about it at work. So either HR didn’t hear anything, HR kept their mouth shut really well, or everyone was to smart to let me know what they heard. Given my experiences there, I’d go with the theory that HR didn’t hear details.

    4. Claudia M.*

      Do it.

      EAP is amazing.

      Been seeing a counselor for more than a year, and almost all of it was covered under EAP. It is an amazing resource and if you have access to it, use it! If you’re worried if you qualify, call them first. The EAP providers are, for the most part, very helpful.

  110. JC Denton*

    So I did it. I finally transferred off of the team that was entirely dysfunctional and causing me so much heartache. My old management made the devil’s bargain and asked that I remain in a part-time capacity (despite everything already having been handed off) for a couple months, so I’m not fully out of the woods yet. As I’ve written in other open threads, I was struggling with the decision to transfer because I was ultimately trying to switch companies entirely and the new company has yet to offer a start date, despite sending me a conditional offer.

    It’s only been a few days, but I already enjoy the welcoming and friendly nature of the new folks; a sharp contrast with where I was before. The fates are cruel though, and the external company I was working with is supposedly a “couple weeks” away from sending me a final offer along with a firm start date. (We already negotiated salary and benefits during the conditional offer, months ago.) New team is already asking me to make some pretty hefty decisions and it makes me feel uncomfortable, because I know I want to jump if external company gets their ball rolling – which is almost a certainty at this point.

    How does one deal with these scenarios? Look out for number one and when the time comes offer the most sincere condolences and mea culpas? My own work ethics have always told me to remain in new positions for a year plus, but I feel this situation is different. My old team was like the Titanic, always approaching one iceberg or another. There was an internal opportunity to leave. With the rarity of internal transfers, when the chance came along I jumped at it. I felt it was better than having the Titanic eventually striking the iceberg and drowning me along with it.

    1. Drew*

      You can’t count on an offer until the offer is in hand. Keep doing your job and if that means making big decisions, so be it. What you CAN do, if you accept an offer, is go back over some of those big decisions with your bosses, explain your reasoning, and give them a chance to walk them back if they want.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      If you had stayed in the old department maybe you would have walked out the door by now, no way to know. So the company got a few more months out of you because they moved you.

      I would think that even if they did not ask for some hefty decisions from you that you would still experience discomfort. Please realize the discomfort would probably be there no matter what. Use a big picture focus to remember what forced you into this position. Nothing happens in a vacuum, if you were not so uncomfortable in your last position you never would have moved to this department. If you look at just pieces of this story, it’s going to be tough. Focus on the main story. Be as fair and as helpful as you can to your new department. Maybe start making notes of what you are doing or planning so you will have that ready when you go.

  111. Fi_B3*

    Hi All,

    I am just needing some advice on a difficult work situation on being made to feel unwelcome in a new position because I am being perceived as a “threat”. I am working in a predominately male environment who choose not to get involved with “girl drama”. Also I am a temp so the contract could be pulled at any time.

    I am genuinely concerned that my job and future livelihood could be in jeopardy because of the “girl drama”. There are the missive comments about my personal life, implications that I am “coming after” their jobs, preferential treatment and frankly just lying about stuff. Its to the point where they will not even speak to me when I need to collab on work related tasks which is really frustrating.

    Despite all of this, I do like my job and I really need this job. Last year was a very rough year for me professionally and I need some kind of stability on my resume.

    Has anyone else gone through this? How did it get better for you?

    1. Charlie*

      Another poster suggested “why do you say that?” as a response to rudeness, and I loved it.

      “Yeah, Fi_B3 is coming after our jobs, I guess.”

      “Why do you say that?” Puzzled, gently wounded tone, slight eyebrow raise.

      1. Fi_B3*

        I think that is a really great comment and will try to use it when the situation calls for it. I am at a point where I cannot say anything to anybody (co-workers, peers, other people in the building)because she huffs and puffs and makes a point to roll her eyes or glare at me and shakes her head. Its really uncomfortable.

        1. Charlie*

          “Is there something wrong, Alwina? You seem upset.” I love the sugary, open-ended question.

    2. LCL*

      No suggestions yet, some questions to clarify things and maybe get some responses that will help.
      1. Are you female or male?
      2. What do you mean by the phrase girl drama?
      3. Who is doing the girl drama? Is it the males you are expected to work with, or others?
      4. Is the girl drama the same thing as the preferential treatment and lying, or is it something different?

      1. Fi_B3*

        1. I am a female – in my 30s. We are all about the same age, give or take 5 years.
        2. girl drama – being nice to someone’ face but talking about them to other people, cattiness, using motherhood or lack thereof as a reason why someone should or shouldn’t be responsible for doing work, using clothing/weight/makeup as a fodder for “playing up to the guys” ect.
        3. It mostly two very tight knit women. They are co-dependent emotionally and professionally so if one is mad about something the other one will be too.
        4. (I need to clarify the preferential treatment with preferential treatment. I have to abide by the same rules as everyone else.) The girl drama includes lying too. To me, the person that lies is just just to using whatever force necessary to get her way.

        2. RVA Cat*

          All I have to say is that it’s absurd that two grown women are acting like they’re running a high school clique instead of a business. Of course there are plenty of dudes who are just as immature….

        3. LCL*

          Be polite and distant from the troublemakers. That kind of backbiting can drive a person crazy. But to avoid it, you have to refuse to play it, ever. Every time they say something catty or start cutting down other people, ask them a question that completely changes the subject. DL 1’Did you see Cersei’s skirt? How can she even work with what she is wearing?’ You-‘who do you like for the game? I think the Seahawks will win it.’ DL2 ‘and her shirt doesn’t even match!’ You-‘oh, I meant to tell you I got a game jersey for my dog and he looks so cute!’ It won’t stop them doing it, but it will stop them doing it around you.

          If you say something to someone else, and she (the she in your post) ‘huffs and puffs and glares at you’, so what? Keep talking. Just because someone disapproves doesn’t mean you have to be quiet.

          My advice so far is advocating modeling good behavior and ignoring bad. Its a lot like dog training. If you believe you are unsafe, or that you aren’t being given good assignments that is a separate post. I’m not advocating open confrontation yet because of your temp status.

        4. Not So NewReader*

          I think you are saying there are two catty women in the office who are trying to undermine you. At first I thought it was men saying that you were there to chase down a husband.
          I am going to go with the two catty women.

          Be professional at all times. Expect them to be professional. I am thinking of a Dr. Spock type persona where their behavior is puzzling to you. You don’t get it. You aren’t going to spend time on it because you are too busy doing a good job.

          Them: “You are here because you are chasing men.’
          You: “Huh? That makes no sense, I don’t get it. About that Smith report, did you get a chance to ____.”

          Them: “There is something wrong with the way you dress, you’re too short/tall/skinny/fat.”
          You: Good to know. Oh, that meeting is a 2 pm and we need to have X ready. I think we are good on that, what do you think?”

  112. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    Anyone have any experience purchasing short term disability insurance on the individual market?

    My best friend works for a very small nonprofit in North Carolina (under 20 employees). She is trying to get pregnant, but doesn’t have any protected leave and she has to purchase her own health insurance through the ACA. She’s trying to hurry up and get pregnant and have a baby soon in case she loses insurance coverage under the new administration. She also would like to get short term disability insurance to help defray the costs of a few weeks of maternity leave. All the research she’s done point to needing to get short term disability insurance through her employer, even if her employer isn’t the one providing her health coverage. She really doesn’t want to tip off her employer that she’s trying to get pregnant.

    Anyone have any experience with this kind of situation, or able to provide any advice?

    1. anon for hubs*

      I researched this prior to becoming pregnant, and unfortunately, individual short-term disability plans that cover pregnancy don’t exist. If you think about it, it makes sense – everyone would get a policy before they got pregnant if that were the case. It is a bummer. Does her employer currently offer short-term disability coverage? If they do, I’d probably try to get coverage that way. Maybe she can say it was recommended by her financial advisor or something if she needs to have an excuse (not that she should, but I realize that’s the reality of many small employers).

    2. Bad Candidate*

      If she found one, they would likely have a pre-ex clause that she wouldn’t be able to use it for pregnancy for a year or two. She could start with her insurance agent though, for whomever handles her auto/home/renters insurance, see what they say. A friend of mine had mortgage disability insurance (I don’t know if it’s actually called that) but it paid her mortgage payments for up to two years while she was waiting for SSDI to be approved, but obviously that was a different situation than just being out for a few weeks after having a baby.

    3. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

      Not sure if Colonial Life operates in NC, but they do here (SC) and they offer STD that CAN be used for pregnancy to individuals.

      1. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

        And FYI, the only pre-existing clause is that she cannot be pregnant when she initially enrolls, so until the premiums are actually being deducted from payroll, she has to not be pregnant, and they will verify/estimate date of conception based on her LMP.

  113. incognito*

    ​I am not sure if something like this has ever come up in the AAM community, but here I go anyway. I am an employee in a department that is run by someone other than my supervisor. This department head has a tendency to speak in a very sharp manner and not just to me–another employee said she speaks to almost everyone in the department that way. I’ve had a few pleasant conversations with her, but they seem few and far in between. It is to the point where I would rather avoid any interaction with her. Because this has an impact on operations, I am considering bringing it up at my next review with my supervisor. Would it be worth it do so or should I just let it go?

    1. Charlie*

      Oooh. I dunno. I mean, on the one hand, how exhausting to be snapped at all day. On the other, yikes. It might be worth bringing up in your next review, since it sounds like it’s impairing your ability to work with this person.

      I almost told you to maybe say, “Is there something wrong with our working relationship? I’m getting the impression from your tone that you’re very annoyed with me.” A lot of people don’t realize that they’re crossing the line from decisive and firm into “goddamn terrifying” territory and that can help them realize they’re being awful. But only if they’re unaware of their tone; if her mood does match her tone, you could really piss her off. Either way, I think it’s best to come from a peer, not an underling.

    2. ZVA*

      Since it sounds like your department head’s manner is affecting your ability to work with her, and since your coworker has confirmed that she speaks to other people this way (so you’re probably not the only one affected), I would bring it up with your supervisor… coming at it from the angle that it’s impacting your ability to do your job (which, from your comment, it sounds like you would do anyway!).

      Does your supervisor have any authority over the department head? I ask because I’m wondering what the ultimate goal of telling your supervisor would be. Are you hoping the supervisor will speak to the department head about it?

      1. incognito*

        I’m not exactly sure if she does (she supervises another department) but I have the impression that they have a good working relationship. I am thinking at my review of saying something like: “There are times when Stacy and I discuss department activities and often the tone she uses conveys annoyance. I am not sure if this is related to a performance issue [regarding me] or if that’s just her way, but I really want to have an effective working relationship with her. Do you have any suggestions for how I can go about doing that?”

    3. Delta Delta*

      This makes me wonder if you and I recently worked together at Terrifying Teapots, LLC. This could have been told by anyone at a job I just left.

      Do you think your actual supervisor will have an open ear to this issue? Will he or she actually manage the department head, or will the response be that the department head gets free reign over what she’s going to do? I’d think through the response you’re apt to get, and then figure out how to phrase it from there.

    4. Jules the First*

      Please, please, please bring it up with the department head directly if you think you can be brave enough. I was that sharp department head and I had absolutely no idea until someone finally got up the guts to tell me I was scary and critical – my bosses never mentioned it because I delivered – and I work hard these days to be less short and scary.

      It was never about being angry, I’m just one of those people who isn’t bothered about the tone I get from others and so it had literally never occurred to me that someone else might actually care about how politely or nicely someone asked for something.

      1. incognito*

        I get that. I tend to have a very matter-of-fact way about myself, which I know can rub people the wrong way. But I am also very self aware and if I feel that I’ve offended someone or said something in the wrong way, I have no problem going to the person I spoke to and apologizing if I said something in a way that came off as disparaging. I probably will not bring this up with her one-on-one but possibly if she is involved in the review process.

  114. discarvard*

    Thanks to those with advice about unpaid internships last week. I’ve decided to go ahead and apply!

    Should I approach the cover letter in any way differently than I would a job, since the focus (ostensibly) is on learning rather than on what I can do for them?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Nope, approach it the same way. They’re still looking for the best qualified candidates. (Also, if it’s with a nonprofit or the government, the focus is probably not on learning rather than what you can do for them; in most cases nonprofits and the government don’t have to meet the same restrictions on unpaid internships that for-profits do.)

      1. discarvard*

        Thank you! Now to actually write the thing- but I’m feeling pretty good about it.

        (Also, wow, a direct reply from Alison! Is it okay to be a little star-struck?)

  115. anon for hubs*

    Does anyone have tips on maintaining your sanity in a super dysfunctional workplace while job searching? My husband works for a disastrous start-up. They keep almost closing the doors, but the wealthy owner keeps throwing more money at it and somehow finding more investors. Given that his job is constantly on the line and that the owner thwarts the company’s success at every turn, my husband is actively job hunting, and has been for some time. But his skill set doesn’t lend itself to a wide variety of jobs, so the search is taking time. In the meantime, he’s getting pretty depressed and stressed, especially since there has been some downsizing and he’s had to take on a few roles. Any tips to keep zen in the meantime?

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      What does he fear the most that may be driving a lot of the stress? Is it the potential for loss of income and inability to pay the bills? Is it the constant ups and downs and ambiguity (there is ambiguity and then there is this getting jerked around level – totally different!)? Is it the fear of failure?

      I would sit down with him and get to the root of what is stressing him out and discuss, if possible, it may just be better for him to walk away from the crazy. I was in a similar situation – stable company but incompetent management, getting jerked around on my contract, the rug pulled out from every project on a daily basis, everyone super stressed and super political. My stress levels went through the roof and my job search went nowhere. I tried to keep zen – this wouldnt last forever, leave it at the end of the day, etc and I just couldn’t. Hopefully someone else has some tips on that, but to me you can only roll so long with the punches before you get knocked out.

      Your description reminds me of the show Silicon Valley and their plots and ineptitude :)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Great advice, take the worst fear and figure out steps (even small steps) to thwart the power of that fear.

        I suggest asking him that the two of you decide when enough is enough and he should just leave, no job lined up. Emotionally, knowing we have an escape hatch can help us ride out a bad situation. It’s when we feel we are chained to a job/other situation that our whole being tanks. It might be helpful for him to feel he has some choices.

        This sounds too simplistic, but one of my favorites is for couples to take walks together. There is something about it that helps us to recenter ourselves and refocus ourselves. Granted one walk will not accomplish this, OTH, you don’t have to take walks every. single. day either. It’s a cumulative thing over time the walks become a time out and a together time.

        I hope he is able to get out soon.

  116. cantwaittogo*

    I gave my two week notice on Monday at my company. It took almost a year to find this new job and I can’t wait to start. Wouldn’t have gotten this job without Ask a Manager and the commentators.

    I have a question about counter offers. My boss, who I like, asks what I want in order to stay. I name an outrageous amount of money plus promotion. I give a number that I know that they won’t meet. To my surprise they say that they will try to meet it. Still waiting for the official counter offer. Should I tell the new job about the counter offer? I don’t want more money from the new job as it’s quite a bump from what I’m making, but want to be courteous if it turns out my company would give me an outrageous amount of money. Or would the better thing to do is to not tell new job about the possible counter offer until it happens?

    2. animaniactoo*

      Back up a step. Would you actually want to stay if they came up with that counteroffer? How would those changes actually work out for you (not just in differences in your responsibilities, etc. but in how your company handles things and could be expected to continue to handle them) to keep you from being dissatisfied to the point that got you looking for another job in the first place?

      1. cantwaittogo*

        I named a salary that would make me stay for at least two years before noping out. I even told my boss that if things don’t change even after I got the bump, that wouldn’t stay for more than two. So, that’s on the table.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Whoa, do NOT tell the new job about the counter-offer unless it’s to explain that you’re rescinding your acceptance. Otherwise you’re going to make them think you’re backing out or trying to reopen negotiations, which they’re unlikely to appreciate.

    4. H.C.*

      Ditto on waiting until the counter offer is made first, you don’t want to give the impression to your new employer that you’re trying to hit them up for more money (particularly if you’ve already negotiated for the new job.)

  117. Lluviata*

    Does anyone have experience with the chaos of being sold to another company?

    A little bit of background: I was hired to support manufacturing assets that were sold from a large chemical company (>30k employees) to a medium-sized one (~5k employees). New Company doubled in size by buying these assets, and went from a North America-only company to a global company. I really think they had no idea what they were getting into when they agreed to this deal, and they are still struggling to decide how to manage the new assets, how to organize the people, how to allocate support, and things like that. We’re being managed as a separate department from the rest of New Company, a year and 3 months later.

    My questions are: is there a general timeline for when I can expect to see the disruption from the sale die down? Do you have any suggestions for someone who’s overwhelmed and stressed by all the change?

    We’re replacing so many software systems, processes, and procedures that we really aren’t handling any of the changes well. For example, I got an email that I needed to order a new laptop the Monday of Thanksgiving week. Tuesday, I get another email that tells me I need to change the address I’m shipping the laptop to. The following week on Monday, I get another email that says that the original address was actually right and I shouldn’t change the address. This is pretty common for how these department-wide changes have been handled.

    As another example: I manage a certain type of annual reporting, and we use a database software to do that. In January of last year, I knew we needed to switch software and started working on the replacement project for just our location. In March, that replacement project got rolled into a global replacement project for a bunch of different software programs. In September, the global replacement project failed and we knew we didn’t have any software to do this mandatory reporting. In October, we started another replacement project just for our location and worked furiously to get this software in place. It’s January now, I’m going to be asking people to enter data into the database next week, and we data entry tool is only “almost done.” So maybe we’ll have it ready at the last minute, or maybe I’ll have to adjust, again, and come up with a backup plan, again.

    I’m feeling frustrated and sad. What could have been a great opportunity to be part of a big change has turned into a grueling fire-fighting effort to mitigate the effects of all of this haphazard overhaul. I can’t do great work like this – I’m dropping small tasks by accident, demotivated, and have way too much to handle. Our leadership seems overwhelmed and complacent and refused to re-organize or sit down to examine the projects we have going on compared to the people we have to do it. I have no idea why we haven’t brought in people to help handle this transition work, everyone in my department is working 50 hours or more, and we’ve been doing this for more than a year now. I thought it would slow down, instead we’re just getting into the roll-out of all these new things and it’s worse.

    Is this just the growing pains of acquisition? Does it get better? Should I stick it out for awhile, try to make it to two years, or get out now? I’d love to hear from anyone who’s been through this.

    1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      Everything you are experiencing is very normal during an acquisition. The thing that is hard to answer is your main question-is it going to get better? It’s very hard to say. I have personally never been a part of an acquisition as the company being sold that has ended up well. Does that mean that all acquisitions end up badly? No, but I would definitely take the clues from your leadership and act accordingly. The fact that they are overwhelmed and complacent and refuse to talk to everyone about how to deal with things is not a good sign. At the very least, it’s not a good sign that things are going to start to smooth over soon. It’s true that in another year things could be different. And really an acquisition a year in is probably always going to be a mess. But I would start asking yourself if you can continue to work the way you are now for another year while you see what happens. If you can and you like the company enough, you can stick it out and see. I would probably start looking now since the job search will take awhile to get moving and you can always turn down a job offer if you feel like things are getting better.

      1. Lluviata*

        Thanks, lionelrichiesclayhead. (That’s an amusing name to type, BTW)

        It’s good to hear that this sort of chaos is normal for an acquisition. I came from a place that was relatively functional, so it’s really been a surprise to me. I think I’m going to talk to my grandboss to see if he thinks the current pace is reasonable or not and if he has any plans to make changes.

        I appreciate your question – do I continue the way it is now for a year? I think the answer is no, even though I like a lot of things about the company and the job. The chaos and the sloppiness is too much for me. So I guess it’s time to update my resume, and if changes don’t come soon I’ll need to move on.

        1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

          Good luck! I definitely encourage you to try to get some communication going with your job while you are there because it certainly can’t hurt and it will help you make the ultimate decision when another job offer comes along.

  118. Regular Poster with No Notice of a New Boss*

    I’m trying to stay relatively anonymous as I both post regularly and refer people to this site.

    My organization just restructured itself, and my team (I’m a manager) was moved under a new boss. No issues with the reorg or the new boss – this stuff happens, and it’s fine.

    My issue is that NO ONE TOLD ME. I found out watching the public presentation of org charts.

    This is NOT how it’s done in my company. People who are affected by changes like this are informed privately first (as they should be!). This is especially important with managers who have to be ready to deal with any questions or concerns from their employees.

    I didn’t get any notice.

    On top of that, because I’m a manager I had to immediately discuss this with my team as if I had known about it all along when I hadn’t. A bit of adding-insult-to-injury.

    I’ve passed on my concerns about the process to higher ups, and it appears to have been an oversight in only my area for which I received an apology – but I’m still not happy and wanted to vent a bit.

    This was so NOT COOL.

      1. Regular Poster with No Notice of a New Boss*

        Thank you.

        It’s amazing how much it helps to know other people understand.

  119. Techie Interrupted*

    Hey everyone,

    Could I get some advice on how to handle job hunting with a significant gap and two abrupt career-field changes? I worked for 3 years in a STEM field after graduating college, but then lost my job due to illness and was unable to work full time for 2 years. When I got back into the workforce, it was in a non-technical job totally unrelated to my old field. I’ve been there for 3 years now and have been going to grad school part time to get into another STEM field that isn’t related to my original field. I’m looking for a job in the new field now, but I’m not sure how to explain this to employers. I’m especially worried about explaining the illness part, since it’s chronic and still occasionally causes me to miss work or work while impaired when I have flare-ups, so I can’t honestly pass it off as a thing of the past. Do you guys have any recommendations? Thanks in advance!

    1. Chickaletta*

      No advice, but I’d love to hear what others say too.

      I’m in a similar situation where I was employed in one field about 10 years go, then changed careers and ended up freelancing, and now I’d like to go back to employment in a field related to the original one (for job security and salary reasons). I’m really concerned that I’ll look like an indecisive career-hopper and patching together a cover letter and resume that employers are interested in is going to be tricky. I’m taking it slow, though, to be sure this is what I want and to make sure that my applications are top-notch. Networking and/or temping to start might be my best bet, as much as I hate those options.

      1. Techie Interrupted*

        Did you freelance in the same general field for 10 years when you switched, or bounce around during that time? Maybe you could frame it as wanting to develop another area, and bring that experience back with you for a more rounded skill set versus just trying to get back where you started? If the two fields are arguably related, that is.

    2. Emac*

      I think the illness shouldn’t be a problem with reasonable people (and you don’t want to work for unreasonable ones, right?). I have a friend who was diagnosed with Lupus about 10 years ago. Before she was diagnosed, she ended up having to quit her job because she was just so sick and kept ending up in the hospital. But once they figured out what it was, things got a lot more manageable and stable. She still has flare ups, but they’re not often enough or severe enough to impact her ability to get her job done, even if she has to take a day or so off occasionally. When she was interviewing after that, that’s exactly how she explained it: “At that time in my career, I developed a chronic health condition. Before I was diagnosed with the condition, I ended up having to stop working because I was sick so much, but now that I know what it is and have been managing it for a few years, it won’t affect my work.”

      I think it also partly depends on how often “occasionally” is. Her flare ups are once every few months which is different than once a week or even once a month. But more often could still be manageable depending on the job.

      Is the field you’re going into something that might allow working from home sometimes or a more flexible schedule? Maybe that’s something that you could discuss/negotiate when offered a job?

      Also, I just realized that you said you’re working and going to grad school – I think that’s evidence that you can handle things despite the illness!

      1. Techie Interrupted*

        I like that explanation, I may have to plagiarize it! My level of impairment is like your friend’s; I’m usually stable for months and though it takes time for flare-ups to simmer down, I very rarely miss more than one day during an episode. The new field is analytics, so the nature of the work should allow flexibility; it would just be a matter of how much supervision I would need. So I guess my worry is mostly about getting my foot in the door.

        2. Is Genevieve pronounced Jen A Veev or Zsahn Vee Ayve*

          My friend has MS and her job has been figuring out how to be flexible with her during relapses. She’s had a couple recently and is on FMLA at the moment because this recent one was bad enough to prohibit work at all (and she doesn’t work in a field where she can do anything remotely), but I think being honest that there will be occasional issues and still doing as much as she can when she’s well helps. Humans are humans, and reasonable people understand this. People go through things and have issues. Good luck with your search!

  120. Adjunct Gal*

    I am having trouble translating the skills and experiences I have teaching and tutoring to get me over to editing jobs in the private sector. But I desperately need to get out of where I work. Any thoughts?

    1. Emac*

      What do you teach? Do you edit student papers? Or do you create any of your own materials, or anything that you give to students that you have to edit really well so that it’s clear?

    2. L10N heart*

      I would love advice on this too, hoping on board! I spent the last several years teaching English abroad and I am a good editor and translator, but I’ve only used those skills in academic settings, so I don’t have any relevant work experience.

  121. Gaara*

    External recruiter advice requested!

    I had a call with a legal recruiter today, and he said it wasn’t required, but he strongly encouraged, me to work only with him and not with any other recruiters. I’ve spoken with two other recruiters, neither of whom has said anything like that. His stated rationale was that I know I can trust his recommendation to work at a particular firm if I don’t have competing offers with multiple recruiters, each of whom naturally wants me to go to the firm they are dealing with, so they can get their 20% or whatever.

    I’ve never really worked with a recruiter before, so I’m not sure what to make of this. Is he right? Is that a red flag about him? Does it not really mean anything?

    1. Red Reader*

      That’s ….. absurd. “You know you can trust my recommendation if it’s the only one you get”? Really?

      No, he wants you to work only with him so he doesn’t have any competition for your placement fees.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Well that only make sense if you actually know and trust him enough to know that you can trust his recommendations. Otherwise, no, it actually makes no sense at all and only narrows your opportunities to working with somebody that you don’t know anything about yet.

      At this point, I would take it as a potential red flag and just take him up on the fact that it’s not a requirement.

      If you’ve got competing offers, that’s great for you. Shouldn’t *you* be in a position to assess how you feel about those offers and which one will be the best fit for you?

    3. Anon 12*

      Red flag. While I would be picky about who is floating my resume around, it’s not uncommon to work with more than one recruiting firm. I would spend time on figuring out how to evaluate their sweet spot and reputation with employers and try to land on a couple that have different employer audiences.

    4. Emac*

      Wow… yeah, that’s a boat load of red flags, I think. I can’t imagine how he said that with a straight face or actually *believe* what he was saying.

    5. Gaara*

      I should add: he didn’t say this, but I kind of took it as an implied threat, too. Like, oh, I have lots of candidates, and if you’re not working with me exclusively, you’re not going to be at the top of my priority list when I’m pitching candidates to firms. But he didn’t actually say that at all, and I don’t want to read too much into anything.

      Still, thanks for all the thoughts so far taking it as a red flag, which is how I felt!

  122. ZVA*

    I just have to share my story of relief today… This week, we start our first project (of what I hope will be many) for a new client of mine I’m really excited about—and immediately run into a problem we have no idea how to fix. We try one solution; it doesn’t work. We try another; it doesn’t work. The deadline is looming & no one here has any idea what to do. I’m new to sales & this client is big and very meaningful for me and I’m convinced I’ll lose them if we can’t fix this and I am dreading breaking the bad news… Then one of my colleagues troubleshoots all evening (last night) and comes up with the perfect workaround. The project is looking great and should (knock on wood) deliver on time.

    I can’t tell you how grateful I am to my coworker (I did let her know) and how like limp with relief I am… I thought I’d have to spend the whole weekend fending off an anxiety attack about this & now I can go home and relax! Hope you all have a great weekend :)

    1. animaniactoo*

      Whew! Make sure you transmit the praise and thanks to colleague’s manager also as an appreciation thing.

      1. ZVA*

        That’s a really good point—she’s actually the manager of her department, but I work closely w/ the company owners (they’re the ones “above” her in our structure) and I’m going to make sure they know how helpful she was to me.

  123. More Waiting*

    So next week, I do the final step in an interview process for another position at my university, and I’m 99% certain a formal offer will be coming soon. I’m really excited about this potential move to another department, which would be a definite promotion for me and a good place to grow.

    So this is all great, but I still don’t know what the salary is! It was listed as “open” on the job posting, which means it could be anything at all, and negotiation is possible. During my in-person interview, I asked what the range was. The hiring manager told me he didn’t actually know what was budgeted for the position (he’s hiring for several spots right now) and asked me what my requirements are. I told him that I’d done some research and gave him a range that I thought was reasonable for someone with my years of experience and skill set. He didn’t seem phased by my range at all, but wrote it down and said he’d get back to me.

    So anyway. I’m not terribly worried, because at my university, they’ll at least give you what you’re currently making, provided it’s not totally outrageous for the role (it’s a similar role to what I have now so that wouldn’t be an issue). If they could meet even just the bottom of the range, that would be a nice bump for me. And at the end of the day, I’d take the job for my exact same salary because I’m desperate to get out of my current department, and I’m really looking forward to this new one. But I’d like to know!!!

  124. Bend & Snap*

    Late to the party! Does anyone have thoughts on the impact of professional certificates? Specifically, I work in communications, and am looking at an exec-level marketing certificate program at Cornell.

    I just don’t know how much weight this would carry. I don’t have the time right now to pursue a master’s, although that’s on my list for when my kiddo gets a little older, and am wondering if the certificate would boost my worth, especially since it’s from an Ivy.

    Thoughts?

  125. Anon for this*

    Etiquette question: I have a private office with a door (no windows) and a sink. Is it weird or gross to close my office door and brush my teeth in my office instead of going to the bathroom? I make sure to leave the sink clean for the cleaning crew.

    1. Emac*

      I don’t see how that would be weird or gross. And if I were your coworker, I would say thank you for doing that instead of brushing them in a shared bathroom – I have a weird tooth brushing/flossing aversion; it really grosses me out to see other people doing that. I use to have a coworker who sat behind me and would frequently floss his teeth at his desk. Thank god for headphones.

    2. Emi.*

      A) I don’t think that’s weird or gross.
      B) If it were weird or gross, how would anyone know? Miss Manners says that etiquette only covers actions that are observed by others, so go for it.

      1. Anon for this*

        To point B, I guess I worry because not everyone remembers to knock. That’s probably their problem, though. Thanks for the reassurance!

        1. Emi.*

          Oh, well, yeah, that is their problem. I’d only take the possibility of people walking in on you into account if you were doing something like full wardrobe changes where it would be deeply embarrassing (to you or them).

  126. MissGirl*

    AAACK I hate networking. I interviewed back in October with a manager I had good rapport with. She wasn’t the hiring manager but simply filtering candidates for the next step. The position needed some specific experience I didn’t have, but she said I could reach out to her if I applied to another spot at her location. I just reached out and it was sooo painful. Does she remember me? Is she too busy? Am I bothering her?

    Why does this feel so awkward? Any tips for reaching out to and utilizing your network when you’re actively job hunting?

    1. Rincat*

      It feels awkward for me because I feel selfish – like I’m asking them to do something for me but not giving them anything in return. I HATE THAT FEELING. What helps me mitigate that feeling is to try to phrase my network email (or whatever communication) in a way that would create as little work for them as possible and lets them ignore it if they want to. I think there a lot of helpful tips on networking on AAM if you check the archives.

      1. MissGirl*

        I think that’s a big part of it. I don’t like asking for something when I have nothing to offer back.

    2. Charlie*

      Take it from one overthinker to another: you’re doing it again. It’s 200% less awkward for her than it is for you.

    3. ZVA*

      In a case like this, I would assume that since she told you to reach out to her, you’re not bothering her! I always assume that people don’t remember me if a decent amount of time has passed, so I might say something like “Hi, I don’t know if you remember me, but I interviewed with you back in October, and you mentioned I could reach out to you if I applied to another position at your location—is this an OK time to talk for a few minutes?” Then you’ve taken care of the business and the remembering you all at once.

      1. ZVA*

        Or, if you’re reaching out via email instead of the phone, “Can we set up a time for a quick chat this week?” Or something like that.

    4. LQ*

      I always tell myself that I should think of what I would want. I would absolutely want someone to reach out to me. The times people have not reached out and I found out later I was disappointed that they didn’t give me the chance to help, sing their praises, give information. So what would I want on the other side? Don’t bug me over and over, but connect on linkedin and then when you do the thing? Tell me if I said tell me when you do the thing.

      (I still hate it and feel deeply awkward and don’t know what to say, but it at least gets me to doing it.)

        1. LQ*

          I had someone recently ask me if they could interview me for something and yeah, I felt special and fancy. These kinds of hey, you’re awesome things (reference, career advise, etc) feel good for the person on the other side too. If they’ve invited it, assume they are open to it (since they actually said they are open to it).

  127. Charlie*

    Just a bit of grousing from me: due to a combination of snow days, holidays, my vacation, other peoples’ vacations, and network outages, I’ve been basically unable to get any work done for a solid two and a half weeks. It’s driving me bonkers. Thank God I have no hard deadline, but I wanted to wrap this project up at the end of March, and it’s looking like April or May now.

  128. Fawnling*

    Happy Friday!

    TLDR – I’ve finished my probationary period but my supervisor won’t take me off.

    I’ve been at my job for 8 months and our company’s standard policy is 6 month probation then a salary increase once off probation. My boss refuses to complete the paperwork because he says he doesn’t “have a scale to measure my success in the role” and says he does not have time to gather the necessary information to create the scale. Can I take this to HR? There are two others in my department who have not been taken off probation and received their salary increase – one has been here for a year!

    1. Charlie*

      I might suggest taking it to his boss, but not sure how that’d go over. Hm. Tough situation.

    2. Rincat*

      Can you help him create a scale to measure success? Or talk to him about it and try to pinpoint some of the things that are making that difficult for him? That sounds really weird and I’d definitely follow up with him, and I think the other people should too.

  129. An Ominous*

    Any advice or strategies for when a supervisor insists on going the cheapest route at the expense of employee ability to function at optimal levels?

    I’m scheduled to attend a teapot networking event and give a presentation at the end of Day 1. My supervisor is saying he won’t approve travel to arrive the day before the event starts because paying for that extra day is too expensive. If this holds, it means getting up in the middle of the night to take a buttcrack-of-dawn flight in order to arrive early enough to register and set up materials. The presentation would come at the end of a 12-hour work day. It would save the company about $450.

    I get the need to save money, but I…do not think this is a good idea. I feel exhausted just thinking about it.

    Any tips on trying to bring around someone who is focusing on reducing every possible cost at the expense of the larger picture and/or employee ability to function? (Or, if this is something that it super common and I’m being a special snowflake, wider perspective is welcome too.)

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Point out the risk that the flight will be delayed and you won’t get there in time, thereby wasting ALL of the money.

      1. An Ominous*

        Thank you, and apologies for the double posting. Not sure what caught the filters; perhaps the reference to the unusual status of frozen and delicate forms of aqueous precipitation?

      2. Drew*

        This is a great suggestion. It’s not about your convenience (it IS, but he won’t see it that way), it’s about the risk of travel delays.

  130. Lady Dedlock*

    My office is so cold, I’m at my wit’s end! I’ve got on a cashmere sweater, big cashmere scarf, and blanket, and it still feels chilly. It’s 32 degrees in New York, and I’ve got cold air blowing from my radiator. It’s not just me, either; I routinely see other coworkers working with jackets on. I know it’s not illegal, but it really seems like this kind of thing shouldn’t be allowed! Brrr.

    1. Emac*

      Actually, it might be illegal. I know OSHA has regulations about minimum heating requirements, and your state might have laws regarding it, too. It’s worth some research.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      There is not a single building in NYC with HVAC that works properly. If one exists, I have yet to find it. Will you get in trouble for having a space heater?

      1. Lady Dedlock*

        I actually just found out recently that a few people have space heaters that were purchased by the office, but they’re not supposed to tell people “because then everyone would want one.” Shaking my head.

    3. Chaordic One*

      I know this is terribly passive/aggressive, but at my last job I bought a thermometer and pinned it to the bulletin board where it was prominent. (It was 64 degrees Fahrenheit in our office.) It didn’t get any attention.

      Then I broke down and bought a little electric space heater that I used under my desk. I always unplugged it at night and hid it in the bottom file drawer in my desk. I always kept the drawer otherwise empty because I was sort of afraid that it might ignite some paper or something, but nothing ever happened and I took it with me when I left the job.

  131. Blue_eyes*

    Oh no! I should have both refilled my water bottle and used the bathroom before I made this call. On hold for 15 mins and counting…And as soon as I step away from my desk they will certainly pick up, right?

    2. Rebecca*

      Oh yes, been there, done that. I’ve been known to tag a coworker to sit in for me so I can make a dash to the restroom when things like this go on too long. I was lucky; I always made it back before the other person picked up :)

  132. new to the world*

    When you’re looking at a relatively young candidate who does not have a degree, is it really such a big deal about shorter less than 2yr stays? I’m 21 and have been working full-time since I was 16 with only one break in employment(to take care of a terminally ill parent), but I’ve had one job that was 8mos(office job, terminated due to illness related absences), one that was 6mos(retail, left because I was offered an office job), and one that was 2.5yrs which was sadly about a year longer than I should have stayed thanks to the toxic environment. But to a hiring manager, does that look so terrible? I don’t have a degree, obviously, and most people my age looking for the jobs I’m looking (mostly entry-level admin work) for maybe have one or two years work experience if any, and definitely don’t have a lot of the experience/training/knowledge that I have. I just see so much about at least two years in a job and it’s making me nervous!

    1. bb-great*

      This doesn’t seem like a big deal to me. Especially if you explain the employment gap in a cover letter, it reads to me as:

      First office job – left for personal crisis
      Filler retail job
      Second office job, with decently long tenure

      which imo is not really a red flag the way it would be if an established professional bounced around to 3 jobs in 5 years. The 2 years thing is just a guideline and context matters.

      1. new to the world*

        That’s what I’ve been hoping/thinking; when you’re newer to working and still finding what works(and when you’re doing entry-level work with no room to go up in the world), there’s more leeway to move around. That being said, I’m quite happy where I am now until I go back to school full time.

  133. De Minimis*

    I got turned down for the job at my old agency that I applied to last month. Really disappointed, but I guess they didn’t want to take my experience into consideration and just looked at the fact that my previous job wasn’t technically at the previous grade [though I was really doing higher grade work and made that clear in my materials.]

    Oh well, onward. A similar job opened up that would be a lateral move though probably would involve a pay cut from what I’m making now. I will probably have to pass on it, I can’t afford to make less money than I do now, even though I really want to get back into the federal system.

  134. Emily Starr*

    How does one transition from a very hands-on, operational, “do-er” role to one that’s more about strategy and thinking? I’ve had a hands-on job handling event management and customer service for over a decade, basically building it from scratch, and got very good at reacting quickly, problem-solving, and creating and implementing smaller technical projects and processes. I’m being asked to hand off a lot of those tasks to others and start doing more proactive, long-term projects that are less well-defined both in what they are and when they need to be done – things like building relationships, mapping out future plans, developing my team, etc. I’m also still involved in the operations about 60% of the time because we’re a small team and we just lost one member. I’m having a hard time switching my brain from “go, go, go” all the time and setting aside project time when I have all these little tasks that are still there. And I’m afraid that when they’re not on my plate anymore, I won’t be able to make my brain work differently and succeed in the new role.

    1. fposte*

      I think this is a super interesting question that gets at something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately; you’re talking about the conceptual challenge a lot of people face as they move up in their career–not just the challenge of delegating, but the challenge of moving their brain to a more abstract mosaic.

      You could be asking this from a few different angles, but I’m going here with a concrete answer, because I think what’s key is finding ways to make the abstract concrete. Something like Trello can be great for laying out project steps (you can even just use Microsoft Word if you like), and Outlook/Google/Excel can give you a scheduling template that you can use to block out specific times for project time. You haven’t said you straight out don’t like the change, so I’m going to assume you’re fine with it but just worried about your ability to bring your skillset to it–and in that case, the way you deal with less well-defined stuff is to define its steps. Sometimes you have to accept that you’re night driving and you can only plan to the end of your headlights range; sometimes you get to plan things out more. You may find that there are rhythms that work better for you in balancing the big picture stuff and small task stuff–factor them into your scheduling! And always feel free to change it up if it doesn’t work.

      I think that in most contemporary careers you quickly get to a place where you can’t manage your work just inside your brain, but for some reason this isn’t an explicit thing people get told. So I’m telling you :-). Make external scaffolding to support you and it will leave you with a lot more mental energy and a lot less anxiety about stuff getting dropped.

    2. LQ*

      I’m worried about this too. I’m transitioning to having other people do and being more of the strategy behind the do and while I like to think that I do a lot of thinking about it, it is usually in the back of my brain while I’m doing, I think I need to carve out the best parts of my day to do that kind of stuff. And I’m still not sure what kind of Do is involved with strategic work. Part of it is I’m going to start now (my transition will be a bit of a longer one because I have to finish a last big project) by blocking off an hour 2x a week to just try to read up/professional develop/research the things I’m aiming toward. Not a lot of time, but some. And I may take my stuff and go to a coffee shop nearby so I don’t get constant interruptions for the little tasks.

    3. Clever Name*

      It’s a struggle. I’m making a similar transition, and I have a hard time feeling like I’m actually working when I’m thinking and planning rather than doing.

    4. Mazzy*

      Hi. For me the first step was going from the one who finds and fixes problems, to just the person who finds problems. Then I’d pass them on to someone else.

      Then I’d have more time to look for problems and issues. What problems overlapped. Were they caused by a bad computer system, the programmers not being given great requirements to begin with, the requirements not being updated when things changed, changes made to X process not being screened for whether they will change something else that is working fine?

      I also asked to do the dirty work of new market setup (or new product or new line or whatever will happen in your company). I mean, the stuff no one else wanted to do or the stuff no one else thought of. There was too much competition to be the PM type person getting all the glory. Well, quickly I became the PM one with all the glory because I was providing all the value – they were just doing the administrative side and sending out meeting invites so the roles sort of reversed and they moved on to things they are better suited for (not saying you’ll end up kicking someone off a project, but in another situation we probably would have split the role).

      The point of doing the dirty work of new market set up was that setting up a new market is one of the most “strategic” things a company does, and I needed to experience everything that would go wrong so I could build it into my plans when I was in charge. As opposed to trying to figure it out when the stakes were higher.

      Back to problems I find. I started to think more about why they were happening. I found different departments were giving programmers all of these little code updates that were negatively impacting other updated. Reports were being deleted because “no one used them” even though people used them. There was bad data all over the place because no one ever audited it (wrong start dates, duplicate line items that were increasing revenue or A/R or whatever). When I looked at all of the little issues from the outside, I saw many higher level issues – no POC for software changes, no one who knew the business side and the software side, certain people putting in too many software changes to look busy while real work was put on the back burner, too much different information in different systems, too much acceptance of a high error rate, certain people who could have prevented any of this only doing the bare minimum work.

      Then I went to fix all of those items. The big caveat here is that my company allowed me to change these things. That gave me credibility. That way, if I said, Sally should really have caught this thing or Sally should work on this thing, that would be listened to, it wouldn’t be taken as office gossip or complaining.

      I also did some non-software process improvements. For example, changing commission plans that didn’t work (I saw that customer retention and satisfaction spiked in certain areas despite us still paying alot for those customers). I ended up doing a bunch of customer segmentation and thinking of ways to charge different prices to different customers, to maintain loyalty to longer-lasting or larger bulk clients, or to stop giving discounts to certain groups because we were getting no reward for doing so.

      ll of the little things that annoyed me when I was lower level? I’d spend days researching them. Maybe there was a trend, maybe there wasn’t. But usually there was. The question then became what was the impact and whether something is fixable or worth fixing.

      1. Mazzy*

        Oh a few typos. In the second to last paragraph I mean that I saw satisfaction and retention nosedive in certain areas despite paying the same amount as we had for bad customers. And it ended up being a trend with certain market segments I identified, not just a haphazard coincidence.

    5. catsAreCool*

      Can you look into the things that made it harder to do your old job and possible ways to fix them? Maybe find people who are in areas you’re developing who are good idea people and/or who are good at finding things, even little things, that would be improvement.

      What would have made it easier for you to learn your old job and become great at it faster? Is that something you can change? Different people learn in different ways, so having various ways for new people to learn might be good.

  135. Emi.*

    My supervisor’s brother died in an accident over Christmas. Would it be inappropriate to give her a Mass card (sympathy card indicating that a Mass is being said for him) if she’s told me that she’s Catholic? The admin got a sympathy card for us to sign and several people mentioned “prayers” in their notes, FWIW.

        1. Hibiscus*

          No, if you’re both Catholic it’s fine. It’s a shared cultural and religious touch point. It would be odd if someone who wasn’t Catholic had to do research to get a Mass card.

          1. animaniactoo*

            Yes, this is what I meant. Sorry, I have the window semi-minimized on my screen and couldn’t see the phrasing on your question when I answered.

            1. Emi.*

              Okay, that’s what I figured. Thank you! I thought it would be fine but I wanted to double check. :)

    2. Anono-me*

      Mass cards can be wonderful to receive. In this case, I think the sympathy mass card is something where it really depends on how close you two are in addition to your work relationship.

      Also, are you sure her brother and the rest of the family are Catholic?

      NWR – I have been trying unsuccessfully to locate a mass card for a friend, who has repeatedly stated she would love one (No luck with the diocese or the local Catholic gift shop.) Could you share the name is the church or Religious Order?

      Thank you.

      1. Emi.*

        Well, you usually get them from a parish. Go to the rectory and ask the parish secretary. They’ll enter your intention into their calendar of Mass intentions and give you a card. (A gift shop wouldn’t be able to, since they don’t offer Mass.) If you don’t have a Catholic parish near you or they have odd hours (check the website or bulletin) or whatever, you can request Masses online from the Congregation of Holy Cross (https://www.holycrossusa.org/requests/mass-intentions/). Other orders probably do this too, but I know about the Holy Cross since they run my school.

  136. NW Mossy*

    I just want to say a huge THANK YOU to the commentariat and Alison especially for giving me the kick in the butt I needed this new year. I have an employee who’s been struggling with interpersonal skills for a very long time (including before my time), and I’d been giving feedback but not seeing enough improvement. Alison, you and others told me I needed to start the process to move her out, and I thank you for not letting me off the hook on this!

    After meeting with my management team and my HR rep, we worked out a 90-day plan (30 days formal coaching, to be followed by 60 day PIP as needed) and I delivered it to my employee this week. It remains to be seen how the employee will do, but at least the conversation wasn’t contentious and I was able to make my points very directly and firmly, which is something I’ve been working on improving. I feel like I’m on a good path to becoming a better boss, and AAM is a fantastic resource to help me get there. Thanks guys!

    1. Drew*

      Congratulations! It’s a kindness to the employee to let her know what her status is, even if it’s uncomfortable to find out that you’re not doing what you need to be in your role.

  137. HdS*

    I could use some career advice at the moment – I am a data scientist for two years, and I really like the field for a lot of reasons, but I have come to realize that I am probably a better software engineer than model builder. This is quite ok at my current firm, b/c we often have projects where both is needed – you often not only build some model to predict something, but you have to integrate it with existing software, where I excel.
    Unfortunately, at linkedin most recruiters try to poach me as a data scientist – and I’m at a loss how to convery that I would like such a “dual” position again – seems to be quite rare or I just don’t find the right keywords.

    1. Emi.*

      I’m not totally sure how LinkedIn works so this might be off-base, but can you highlight your software engineering accomplishments and duties in your resume/bio/whatever? Also, what about negotiating a title change with your manager?

    2. Emac*

      Eh, I don’t know that there’s much you can do – even if you said something like that directly in your summary or someplace else obvious, I bet a lot of recruiters would still take a chance. They might figure that you haven’t updated your profile in awhile and what you want is different now, or that they have a job that is so amazing it would convince you to change your mind, or they’re just contacting anyone with “data scientist” in their profile, without looking at anything else. It seems like a lot of recruitment is a numbers game.

      Although, if you’re trying to come up with a way to respond to recruiters to let them know what you’re actually interested in, I think what you wrote is pretty good. You could come up with a standard email that you just always copy and paste when someone contacts you about data scientist jobs. Something like: “I am interested in exploring other job possibilities, but I’m only interested in positions where I can use both my data science skills and my software engineering skills. If you have positions like that, please send me a description and then we can set up a time to talk.”

  138. Can I get some perspective over here?*

    I need a little advice on choosing a career and launching it – I’m feeling pretty lost and discouraged and could use some perspective, and maybe a kick in the pants.

    I spent the last ten years dabbling, mainly in the arts and education, and I’m tired of scraping by on 20K/year. I have a lot of the “soft skills” employers ask for – I’m conscientious, I learn fast, I have good written and interpersonal skills, I’m bilingual, etc. but I lack “hard skills.” I’m curious and spend a lot of time reading and taking free online courses, but every time I start to think “maybe this is something I could do,” I get a lot of negative feedback on that field. Usually, it’s something like “there is too much competition, you won’t earn a lot of money, it’s an oversaturated market, you need to spend years building up your skills/contacts before you’ll get anywhere.” The fields I’m interested in include front-end design, content creation, and language services. I want to get my act together and do something practical, but I don’t want to hate my job.

    I have literally spent years trying to find something that feels like a good fit and I always end up discourage or second-guessing myself. At this point, I can’t even imagine what it’s like to get paid a real salary and have a proper career. What do normal people do? How do you avoid investing in what may turn out to be an over-saturated job market? Please give me hope and tell me that it’s possible to start from scratch in your 30s!

    1. NW Mossy*

      I think part of the key to making a change like this is to recognize that while going directly from where you are to your dream state in one leap is really hard, making the move more incrementally is a lot more doable. If you’re willing to take on work that gets you part of the way to where you want to end up as a stepping stone, it opens up a lot more options and it’s generally easier to get your foot in the door that way. I’ve visualizing a Venn diagram of overlapping circles here – you want to be in Circle B, but your hard skills/experience are in Circle A. Looking for jobs in the overlap between A and B is probably a good avenue for you. Seeking work at smaller organizations can also help – these employers may not pay as well at first, but you get the benefit of both a smaller candidate pool and the opportunity to get into a job that can give you diverse experience fast.

      I don’t know that it’s particularly worthwhile to try to target some magically under-saturated field – these are pretty darn rare these days, and the economic landscape changes so quickly that an industry that favors job-seekers today can flip to favoring employers almost on a dime. It’s just way too hard to predict and it’s often paralyzing to try.

      1. Can I get some perspective over here?*

        Thank you, this is helpful. I agree that it’s paralyzing to try and target an undersaturated industry! I get so discouraged when I want to learn a new skill (e.g. building websites) and someone says, “Oh, it’s a really saturated market” – I can’t help thinking, why even try when the market is already full of experienced professionals! But you’re completely right – I have to slow down and do what I can with what I have. Thanks for your answer!

        1. catsAreCool*

          Sometimes you may be getting advice from people who only think they know what they’re talking about. Might be worth doing some research, but it’s tough to tell what will be saturated in a few years anyway.

    2. LQ*

      I think that you accept you’ll never find the Perfect Dream Job of Unicorns and Rainbows. And you take a job that has something good. (For me it was someone who had previously worked in the field I wanted to get into, journalism, just as all the newspapers were closing and everyone started to say it was an impossible field.) Then you go from there. I have never in my life* had a job I thought I would have. Never a job I planned for, or frankly a job I knew existed. But I’ve been pretty happy in my jobs overall.

      *I once a forever ago when blogging was young got a blogging journalism fellowship. It wasn’t what I wanted, and that’s made me more ok with the jobs I’ve had too, but that didn’t come until after I’d already taken jobs to pay the bills.

      I think you have to just go for it at some point and realize it might never be perfect. (And I know there are problems, but working at small places with lots of different things on your plate might be really good for you, it was for me.)

      1. Can I get some perspective over here?*

        Yes, you’re right, there’s nothing to do but go for it and see what happens. My “dream job” is one that pays me enough to live without constant stress and doesn’t kill my soul, haha. So I’m not at all fixated on “following my dreams” or anything like that, I just know that whatever job I get now will probably lead to the next opportunity, etc. and I want it to be a good chain of progression this time, hence why I’m so hesitant to invest in any area I’m not sure will work out. (#overthinking) But that’s not exactly a good strategy for making things happen :-) It’s comforting to know that you ended up in jobs that you liked – I hope I will too. Thanks for your response!

    3. Emac*

      I don’t know anything about getting into those fields, but as for starting from scratch in your 30s, it’s definitely possible! I took off in my early 30s to teach English abroad. I came back to the US when I was 35 and basically started a completely new career in adult education and workforce development. My teaching experience did help me get my first positions, but it was still very different and I was still very much at the bottom of the ladder. But it was worth it!

      1. Can I get some perspective over here?*

        Thanks, I’m glad to know that! I spent my late 20s abroad and now all my peers have careers and disposable incomes and babies – aaaah! I’m glad to know that it was worth it (and possible) to start at the bottom and build a new career. Thank you for sharing a tale of hope! :-)

  139. Emi.*

    I just found out that someone is coming to my workplace to tell stories of his and his father’s civil rights work…by singing and playing blues guitar. I get to attend on official time, and can receive credit for participating in a “leadership colloquium.” This. Is. Awesome.

    1. Charlie*

      Getting paid to listen to the blues? Run, don’t walk.

      I just have to tell this story: when I was in grad school, I got to sit ten feet from BB King for an evening of stories and blues. The student committee that organized it totally dropped the ball for organization, and less than 50 people were there. So he said, c’mon now, y’all, this ain’t a concert, this is a party, get up here and sit with BB. And so we sat there, and asked questions, and he told stories, and every few minutes he’d play some face-melting guitar solo like “The Thrill is Gone.” Truly one of my all-time favorite memories.

      1. Charlie*

        I meant, run, don’t walk, to get there! Don’t miss that for anything! Not the opposite. Sorry for confusing wording.

      2. Drew*

        When I was a freshman in high school band, we went to a contest and one of the perks was free admission to a Maynard Ferguson concert. As it happened, weather and travel problems meant that he started over an hour late, and at the intermission almost everyone left. So my band got a PRIVATE Maynard Ferguson show for over an hour. It was amazing.

  140. Fluffer Nutter*

    Are there any jobs left in the US with an ethical, reasonable workload? It seems every time you meet expectations you get assigned more and more. Get tired, change jobs, repeat. Creative ideas on how to ferret such workplaces out? (Besides Glass Door.) I’m always afraid if you ask about work/life balance in an interview you won’t get an offer, and if you ask at the offer phase it might get yanked. Suggestions of how the phrase it at the offer phase in addition to: “What are your expectations of after hours availability?”

      1. Fluffer Nutter*

        I’ve been in government and non profit. Fled the private sector a long time ago and no real desire to go back. People helping type jobs, although not HHS specifically. Last govt job (not feds) was up to 48-60 hrs per week (high stress caseload) with no relief in sight so my health forced me to leave a job I loved. First year is always fine, then you just end up doing more and more which is the pattern I’m seeing in my non profit now.

    2. Emi.*

      I’m a federal employee, and I’m not allowed to work more than 40 hours a week without getting comp time or credit hours (which I can then use like leave). If I’ve maxed out my credit hours and I’m not approved for comp time, I have to go home. The end. When they explained this to me when I started, they made it sound like this was the case for all federal employees, at least us GS people, not just an agency thing. Speaking of agencies, NASA makes a big deal out of valuing work-life balance–I was kind of skeptical when I was applying (“blah blah blah, everyone says that”) but so far it seems to be true. I realize this is a bummer tip with a hiring freeze predicted, but the senior types say that all new presidents brag about their hiring freezes and they never really last that long, so fingers crossed!

      Other than that, could you get your prospective coworkers’ contact information and ask them?

      1. Charlie*

        I’m a contractor for a Federal agency everyone has heard of, and I’m also contractually limited to 40 hours. That varies; I provide onsite regulatory compliance support, other contractors have different contracts, etc.

      2. De Minimis*

        I worked as a fed and though we did have people who got overtime pay [this was a medical facility] it was limited to people who wanted to do it, and most people only worked their 40 hours and that was it.

        All I can say is do not go into the non-profit field……though at my current job it depends on your department and supervisor.

        1. Fluffer Nutter*

          I’ve always heard that about non-profit but oddly, my current job is way fewer hours than my old gov’t job, but it’s turning into Carnival of Projects. (Beyond the spirit of “other duties as assigned”.) My part of the country has a work-life balance sort of ethic but we’re also had a population explosion that hiring budgets can’t keep up with, in govt at least.

          2. Overeducated*

            I’ve heard that non profits make up for low pay with great benefits and schedules…but not in my sector, as far as I can tell. Seems like you are supposed to trade all of those off for the great opportunity to serve the mission.

            1. Chaordic One*

              Where I live, great benefits and schedules for administrators and people with specialized training (I.T. and finance).

              For other employees, not so much.

              1. De Minimis*

                My employer actually pays really well for the nonprofit sector, it’s the most I’ve ever made. I would prefer less pay though for a strict 40 hour workweek.

    3. NW Mossy*

      In my experience, industry is only one part of the answer to finding a job that offers the sort of balance you want. Other heavy influences are the overall vibe of your geographic location, the employer’s culture, the attitude of the management team, and the personal preferences of the direct manager. For example, I work in an industry (financial services) that is generally thought of as a high-stress, long-hours, work-work-work type of arena. However, my specific location, employer, and management really value work-life balance and it shows up in how we operate day to day. While certain industries make terrible hours a necessity (such as Bering Sea fisherman or emergency medicine) of the job, many are more variable.

    4. tigerStripes*

      I work in a for-profit company doing STEM work. For most of us, the expectation, even from exempt employees, is about 40 hours a week.

  142. Anonyby*

    Hey all, I could use some sympathy/commiseration/whatnot here.

    So I work for a company that has offices spread out all over the area. I’m weekend reception for my primary office, and my manager has been working to get me FT and has stuff he wants me doing during the week there. However, one part of my job has been floating during the week, to cover things like vacations or sick days for receptionists at other offices.

    Well, for the last few months one manager has been monopolizing my weekday time (with HR’s approval, though my manager isn’t too happy with how long it’s taking). Supposedly I’m covering the receptionist position at one office until they hire another (and I’ve been covering since September, and they haven’t hired anyone yet!). Not to mention the manager is the manager of several offices due to I-Don’t-Know-What, and has been asking me to be at other offices she manages when those people are out… And then starting this week she wants the admin at this office up at the Reception desk, and me at the Admin desk. It’s leaving me scratching my head and feeling like she doesn’t really need me to cover reception, and is just milking the situation for all its worth. Not to mention, there’s a LOT more drama going on up here than at my primary office. I’m keeping my head down and trying to stay out of it, but you know what happens when stuff hits a fan.

    I’d really, really like a new job (which I haven’t had much luck with). Barring that, I’d like to go back to my office. :/ I know my manager’s not happy and has been trying to push back, but there’s only so much he can do.

    1. Lucy Westenra*

      Sounds chaotic. Also sounds temporary, one way or another. There will be a time in your life when this is no longer happening. Hopefully, that time will be soon.

      1. Anonyby*

        Thanks. I’ve been on the edge of burnout for months. Last year was a chaotic kind of year for the company, which landed squarely on my shoulders thanks to being a floater. So far this isn’t a great start to the new year… I’m in burnout city at this point. Having three-day weekends over the holidays helped, but then I’m thrown right back into a 10-day week…

  144. Student*

    I am worried my career may be taking me in a direction I find completely immoral. As in, I have reason to believe my entire industry, or very large swaths of it, may start doing things I consider Very Bad and won’t be a part of.

    When do you draw a line like that? When you first see that things are going in a bad direction? When you are first asked to do something over the line? When you start seeing co-workers do things over the line and think you’re likely next? I feel like there’s still hope we won’t all go over this cliff together, but I also feel like if I wait until it’s at my personal door to bail it’ll be much harder to do so while keeping my conscious clean. Might be relevant – it’s entirely possible I’ll be asked to contribute to Very Bad Things and not know it until afterwards.

    1. Manders*

      Is there any way to be more specific about what your field is or what exactly you find immoral? I can’t tell from this information if this is something that’s just always going to be inherent to a particular field, or if there are companies out there that don’t operate this way and never will.

      There’s one subset of the field I work in that I just find… kind of icky. It’s not illegal or immoral, but when I read about the way people go about things, it seems like they’re exploiting a system rather than working with it. But I’m still in the early stages of my career, and I think I can specialize in something else that will allow me to stay away from the stuff I don’t want to do.

    2. Ultraviolet*

      Definitely a hard question. I know someone who dealt with it by retiring ~4-5 years earlier than originally planned.

      If there are parts of your industry that might not have this problem, is it possible to transfer over there, either permanently or for just a few years?

      Are there other people in the industry you could talk to about this? It might be especially helpful to find out whether you and your coworkers are thinking of drawing the line in similar places. It’s probably better for several of you to make a stand than just one of you (or just one of you at a time).

      It sounds like you might benefit from first focusing on the possibility that your work will end up contributing to Very Bad Things without your knowledge, and figuring out what kind of tradeoffs you’re willing to make to prevent that (given your knowledge of the probability it’ll happen). That could obviate the other questions. And even if it doesn’t, it might help clarify your thinking.

      Another possible answer to “When do you draw a line like that?” would be “When you’re no longer able to do a reasonable amount of good from the inside as a voice of dissent or source of transparency.” That’s just something to consider, not an attempt to push you one way or the other.

    3. Emi.*

      Ooh, this is a toughie. I think it depends on what it means that your industry is doing Very Bad Thing. I’d be more likely to stay in an industry where falsifying production numbers of innocent widgets is rampant than an industry where the number one product is murder widgets. Does that make sense?

      The fact that you could be involved in VBT without knowing it (shame on whoever put you in that position, by the way) is a strong argument for erring way the heck on the side of caution. I also think you should jump ship if sticking around looks like approval/endorsement of VBT.

      The other thing is, realistically, how much could you prevent VBT if you stick around?

    4. Melody Pond*

      Unfortunately, I don’t have a good suggestion to offer on your actual question, but if you have access to Netflix, you might be interested in checking out a movie called Experimenter. It’s about the study in 1961 where people were asked to send electric shocks to a stranger, and how, as long as someone else was telling them to do it and was willing to take responsibility for it, the subjects were willing to do some pretty awful things to strangers.

      I’m actually planning to watch it for the first time today, but it has pretty solid ratings on Rotten Tomatoes, and I thought perhaps you might be interested in it. Or maybe watching it might help click something into place for you, as far as the question of, “at what point do I bail out of this” with respect to your own situation.

    5. Clever Name*

      Ugh. I work in the environmental industry, and I’ve drawn a line that I won’t work for an oil company, even though I have the right skill set and could make a ton of money. So I know how you feel.

    6. Jules*

      I left the organization when I see anything unethical brewing. At some point of my career, I was one of those who signature would endorse project proposals. Once I saw that leadership was going the wrong way and there was nothing I could do to influence the outcome, I left the organization. I will not sign any document which is unethical. There were times where I asked my boss to sign it as I cannot in good conscience sign it (some smaller weird request where others think it was minor but I am not starting down that path because it’s a slippery slope).

  145. Elle*

    Just have to vent. Why do applicants apply for a job that clearly states a certain salary, then balk at an offer that is $5,000-7,000 higher than that stated salary? I don’t get it. Any insight? And one of them has been unemployed for about 6 months!! I get that they need to make a certain amount, but why bother putting in the time applying and coming in for two interviews when I’ve been honest and up front about the wages from the start? Grrrr…..

    1. Manders*

      Are you sure that all the sites you’ve posted the salary on have the correct information in a prominent place? That applicant behavior is weird enough that it’s making me wonder if they’re getting the wrong information from the job posting.

      1. Elle*

        Nope. They knew — In addition to the ad being correct, I make a point to discuss it right away.

    2. H.C.*

      I’m guessing they think they’re that magical unicorn candidate that hiring managers & HR will move heaven and earth for to get them on board, incl. going above & beyond the posted salary range.

      Yeah…. no

    3. animaniactoo*

      Likely – Because they are *required* to apply in order to keep their unemployment wage coming. Even to things that are outside their “acceptable” range, just to show they are making the effort to find a new job. But then are holding out for what they actually want vs taking the job that offers them 20k below what they were previously making. However, they can’t tell you they’re doing that without risking their unemployment, because they fear they would get reported and might get told “You got an offer? You need to take that. We won’t keep paying you when you could be employed” because the Unemployment Office does not care about potential damage to one’s career, etc. They care about getting you off unemployment.

      1. Elle*

        Ah, interesting. I hadn’t considered that possibility. One of them may have been using our offer to get more from their current employer too.

    4. Emi.*

      Maybe they’ve gotten bad advice about salary negotiation, so they honestly thought they could/would get more. “Stated salaries are just a suggestion and you should always push for more” sounds like exactly the kind of advice you’d get from people who tell you to send the hiring manager a plant and candy.

  146. legalchef*

    I had to have a Talk with one of my team a couple weeks ago, and then after speaking to my boss, followed it up with an email clearly setting out our expectations, etc. I sent this email Tuesday afternoon, but have not received any response. Should I be expecting some sort of response? I guess I was anticipating something, even if it was along the lines of “I will do my best to comply” or whatever. Just some acknowledgment that the email was received and read.

    1. animaniactoo*

      I wouldn’t necessarily reply to an e-mail that seemed to just be a followup reiterating/confirming what I was verbally told.

      Particularly if it started off with “As discussed today, …”

      If you’d like an acknowledgment, I would suggest doing a one-on-one check-in with him next week and ask him if there’s anything in the e-mail that he believes would be an issue for him or that he needs more detail on.

      1. legalchef*

        It was part reiterating, and also part setting out some very specific guidelines that hadn’t been discussed to that extent when we met.

    2. NW Mossy*

      I just went through this myself, and while it may not help you now, one of the things I said in The Talk was that I expected the employee to develop a plan of action and be prepared to present it to me for discussion at our next meeting in a week’s time. I also included that in the post-Talk email recap.

      I’m not sure if you work at an organization large enough to have something like Workday, but if there’s a repository for disciplinary and/or formal coaching/PIP actions, be sure your email makes it there so that it’s properly memorialized that you had the conversation and followed up via email.

      1. Legalchef*

        Nope, nothing like that. But I ran the email by my boss before sending it and bcc-ed her per her request, so it’s pretty well documented.

        I didn’t want her to come back to me w a plan of action frankly because I didn’t think that she would have one that was sufficient, since this was a Talk that happened because of multiple little conversations that were never acted on appropriately.

        But one of the other managers said that she would have expected that I got a response, which got me thinking that maybe it was weird that I didn’t even get an acknowledgment.

  147. AnotherAnony*

    In toxic or dysfunctional environments, why /how are some people safe or immune to things and other people are targets? One coworker, Fergus, was on a PIP and yet 5 years later he’s still there and the manager who gave him the PIP was fired. How is that possible? I thought a PIP meant you were out the door. Other people are there for years and years, yet some people are automatic ‘targets.’

    1. Rincat*

      Some people play the PIP game really well, there are many people at my university who improve just enough and meet just enough of the requirements to save their job, and then they lapse into their old ways once they are safe. There’s one guy who has been working here for 10+ years, and is pretty much on a PIP each year.

      And then there’s just plain old politics and favoritism!

    2. Fluffer Nutter*

      If I knew the answer to that, I’d be a best selling author. However, having dealt with an exhausting direct report, I’m embarrassed to say this person wore be down and made dealing with the problem behavior harder than ignoring it. Learned a lot from that.

    3. NW Mossy*

      It certainly says that the PIP is missing the key condition that should be part of every PIP ever – “You are expected to meet and maintain your performance at acceptable levels for the duration of your employment.” Any PIP that allows for backsliding into the ineffective behavior is worth less than nothing. I recently confirmed with my HR department that this is part of their PIP boilerplate and that they explicitly permit (and may even encourage) termination of an employee that meets a PIP but reverts afterwards.

    4. Claudia M.*

      Keep in mind that a lot of what you are seeing is perspective.

      For example, a co-worker who is a step down form me commented the other day that management actually listens to me, and accepts my advice, and how lucky I am because he has to fight for it.

      I have never seen it that way. I live the fight every day, but until he pointed it out, I had not considered what my day to day looked like to outsiders. I fight just as much, if not more, and I’ve earned a bit more trust from the management team (hence my position above his). I just keep my fights quiet, my arguments behind closed doors, and my dirty laundry tucked safely away.

      Just because you do not see the struggle/conflict/troubles, does not mean that those things do not exist. Maybe the manager that was let go had been struggling for a long time, or had personal issues, or did something illegal, etc. If the company is smart, you need never know the employee’s personal business unless that person wants to share it.

    5. Anon3*

      Because people know how to play the game. I work with people who make loads of errors and are lazy, always goofing off, etc. But they never break the rules that cause termination, it’s really hard to get fired these days. On the other hand, I’ve seen good people get targeted for ticking off a higher up, go figure.

  148. Tales from A Job Hunt!*

    Wow, there just isn’t much out there this time of year. I am struggling to meet the three-a-week job app requirement for UI. If I moved, assuming I could afford it (HA!), I’m not sure that would change. I’m starting to look elsewhere but am limited in how far I can go at the moment (though my mum said family would help me move, I don’t have the money to, and don’t think I could sell this bunghole of a house).

    I really want to go back to California, but not someplace gross or tiny where there is nothing but dust and despair. In the good places to live in CA, $15 an hour is like $7 here. Because RENT. No matter where I go, I can’t get the higher level admin jobs because they all have budget reconciliation/accounting/forecasting reports in Excel that is the reason I couldn’t do my old job.

    I’ve been looking at tech writing/editing stuff. All the tech writer jobs are like, “Must know [insert some writing, layout, or industry computer program I’ve never heard of and every ad has a different one]. Experience in [large amounts of coding languages, all different per ad, or industry experience, depending on what company the job is with].” Also, I have nothing to show for my four years of editing software reports because they were proprietary and contained client information. No portfolio items except two things I did in school, and one is in InDesign, but I have had no access to InDesign since 2014.

    I did apply for a tech writing job in St. Louis (ugh, but bigger than here) that I could totally do, but of course I heard nothing back. I can’t go back to school again to finish that program, even if they would let me back in. I can’t take out any more loans. That’s a closed door. How can I find something then? How can I leverage that four years to get me out of these dead-end admin shit jobs that pay nothing and go nowhere?

    To top it off, something personal is happening that is actually a trigger for No I Do Not Want To Be On This Earth Anymore and I am just about to give the hell up.

    1. legalchef*

      Re the Excel, is there any way you can learn that stuff? Maybe free web courses or something?

      2. Anonyby*

        She’s mentioned in previous posts that she has a learning disability severe enough that she can’t pick up Excel.

        1. Tales from A Job Hunt!*

          I can use the program but not for math-related stuff. I can enter data but I can’t write formulas past using the SUM function. Most of those job functions I refer to are higher level than I’m able to do.

    2. Emac*

      Ugh, I’m sorry, that sounds like a shitty situation. I see things like this a lot with my students and it’s so frustrating because I know that if someone would just give them a chance, they’d be getting an amazing employee.

      Is the stuff in Excel because you don’t have experience with that, or just hate it? If it’s experience, could you find somewhere online to try to learn it? I get a free account to Lynda.com with my public library account, which has a lot of amazing tutorials.

      Or could you temp or volunteer? Or do some online freelance stuff like on UpWork? I don’t know how good that site is, but might be worth looking into.

      Would a PDF of the InDesign portfolio item be useful? If you need someone to convert it, send it to me – I have InDesign!

      1. Tales from A Job Hunt!*

        Thanks, I do have a PDF of it, luckily!

        Excel–No, it’s because I have dyscalculia, a math learning disability. I can use the program but only at a basic level and that is not going to change.

        I could look on those sites; that might be a good way to get more portfolio items. But that isn’t going to solve the problem of needing a job NOW that pays bills. And now I have no healthcare either.

      1. Tales from A Job Hunt!*

        Thanks, haha I already have four years of editing experience at a technology services company. So I’m pretty PC-savvy. However, I don’t have access to the programs the ads are mentioning, so there is no way I can practice in them, and I’m pretty sure they want someone with experience. Even Adobe has a subscription fee and I can’t afford it right now. Also the math issue means coding is out for me.

    4. Camellia*

      For those software reports, can you create mock-ups of ones for your portfolio and explain why they’re mock-ups because of the proprietary data?

      1. Tales from A Job Hunt!*

        Can you do that? I didn’t think you could do that. It would just look like I did it recently. WAIT, I did make one using the Loren Ipsum text and the date on the file would be during my employment there. Only the cover page was different from the most recent version.

        That’s two things, plus my stupid content job from 2011-2012 to which I have links (that is on my resume). But so pitiful, hah.

    5. Caledonia*

      Take the help from your family, if you can. There’s lots I learnt from my 8 months of poverty and unemployment – it’s no fun trying to slog through such a difficult situation, particularly on your own. You definitely cannot sell your place, you know for sure? I’m still feeling the effects from the time I spent unemployed and miserable and it’s been several months now.

      1. Tales from A Job Hunt!*

        I probably could sell it as-is or do a short sale, but I’m not going to make any money on it and I’d be lucky if I broke even and didn’t damage my credit. My mum is already helping but she’s had to help so much because I’ve had such a run of bad luck with two layoffs in a row before this.

        1. caledonia*

          Sometimes all that’s left are cr*p choices.
          And also, interwebs hugs and positive thoughts ☆

    6. Colette*

      If you want to brush up on InDesign, you could use a trial. It might only be for a week, so you’d have to be pretty focused. I believe it’s also possible to sign up for a subscription for a month (but you have to be careful to choose the monthly price, not the annual subscription (lower price, paid month, but you’re locked in for a year)).

      Are tech writing jobs asking for lots of samples? Could you choose a technical subject (maybe on how to do a specific task in InDesign) and do a sample document?

      1. Tales from A Job Hunt!*

        Not really–I was just trying to get something together for a portfolio of sorts. The ones that are usually ask for years of experience, or it’s vague–“writing samples.”

        Where I’m hitting roadblocks is with software and industry knowledge. I had no industry knowledge when Exjob hired me either (banking and software), but I managed to do a great job anyway. But they’re asking for experience in document preparation software that I have no idea what it is even, and graphics and stuff that I also have no experience with. I’m beginning to think I just wasted my time at Exjob because I learned nothing that will help me. (I was already a good copy editor.)

        Also, stupid companies need to stop advertising tech writing jobs when what they really want is someone to write advertising copy. Marketing is NOT the same thing!

    7. LCL*

      You write so well. Much better than well, but I am too tired to find the right words to do your writing justice. Have you ever considered tutoring? Do the Kumon people also offer language classes?

      If you are feeling suicidal please call a hotline.

    8. Clever Name*

      I’m so sorry you’re struggling. I’m a long-time reader, and I think you’re a talented and interesting person. I think you’ve mentioned that you used to work the front desk at a lab? Could you pivot that into industry experience you could use for tech writing for sampling or lab equipment or anything? Maybe moving to St. Louis could be a path to moving to ca? I know it’s still in MO, but my dad is from there and I spent many summers there as a child, and it really is a lovely city. Still very southern, but way more cosmopolitan than Midwestern small towns. (I’m from the Midwest)

      Denver is having a real job boom right now, if you don’t mind 6 months of winter…..

      1. Tales from A Job Hunt!*

        It was too long ago; it’s not even on my resume anymore.

        I’m looking in St. Louis; it would be easy for my family to help me move over there. The job I applied to that I heard nothing about was there, and also had an office in CA, but of COURSE no one will call you back when they see the word assistant on your resume because OH YOU ARE JUST A SECRETARY WITH NO SKILLS I BET YOU THINK TYPING IS WRITING STUPID WOMAN FALLING OFF THE MOTORCYCLE CHRIST WHAT A FRIGGIN SCATTERBRAIN. That’s why I’ve been trying to look for portfolio materials.

    9. SeekingBetter*

      I hear ya! Have you been exploring maybe a career at a nonprofit? I see ads from nonprofits requiring someone to have good writing skills; some Excel, Word, & Powerpoint experience; and customer service skills for a person who advocates or does some coordinating for the organization. Maybe that’s something worth exploring. Good luck on your job search and don’t give up!

      1. Tales from A Job Hunt!*

        If there is a job there I can do, I’ll apply. I applied at *URP* a religious organization recently. Hey, it was my old religion, so at least I’m familiar with the dogma, and it does have a high rating on Charity Navigator.

        But I’m not looking for a career. I am only looking for a JOB.

  149. Growing Manager*

    Can anyone recommend any general “Management/Supervisor Training”-type programs that are *not* industry-specific, in the NY Metro Area? I try to read up on management techniques and pick my boss’s brains, but I’m still feeling uneasy about supervisor stuff and wondered if some sort of in-person training seminars would help.

    2. NW Mossy*

      Manager Tools (https://www.manager-tools.com/) does conferences all over the world, but they also have great podcasts (which are free!) and video versions of their conferences (paid, but not as much as in-person) that cover the same ground. I’ve found their podcasts incredibly helpful because they’re very focused on giving you stuff to do rather than staying theoretical.

      1. Growing Manager*

        Thanks so much, Alison and NW Mossy! I appreciate your pointers and will definitely check them out!

  150. I Have A Real Manager Now :)*

    I just want to say what a difference my new job has made in my life. Example of old versus new:

    Old PHB: (imagine this person walking from office to office, yelling loudly) “New system is going live on X date, so I don’t want any excuses or vacation requests from any of you around that time. I don’t care what you have to do, you will be here, and will sit there until the work is done. Everyone will be here, no excuses. I don’t care how long it takes, or if we have to work every day for a month, this will get done”.

    New Manager: same scenario, but we’re in a conference room, and everyone is calm and she is smiling. “Since the new system is going live on X date, we may want to think about adjusting work hours that week. Last time, remember we couldn’t access our data until late in the afternoon, so as we get closer, let’s keep that in mind so we can work accordingly, and make sure we accomplish all of our tasks.”

    Basically, the same thing is going to happen. We are going to migrate to a new system at work soon. Been there, done that, but this time, I don’t feel stressed or apprehensive, or dreading being stuck in the office for days on end. Why? Because my manager will manage the situation, we may have days with weird hours, we may have to work over the weekend, but my new coworkers and I will be there and have support – so much different than my previous work life. I’ve already seen how people jump to aid others who get overwhelmed with projects so the work can get done in a timely manner, and one poor soul isn’t stuck staying very late or working all weekend. It’s such a wonderful change.

  151. Lemon Zinger*

    How can I convey to Jane, my difficult coworker, that she needs to be prepared to take care of her own needs when we leave the office? We are at another location today. I drove. Jane only brought her phone.

    When I go anywhere, I bring a water bottle, my wallet, lip balm, hand lotion, hand sanitizer, etc. in a backpack. I also bring my laptop, because I’m at work and expected to be available and online.

    It’s not the end of the world that Jane doesn’t have her things, but her complaints really get to me. She’s an adult woman; shouldn’t she know to bring a water bottle and a sweater in case she gets cold?

    Any language would be helpful. I am not Jane’s supervisor– we are peers but she is new.

    1. animaniactoo*

      “Yes, I hate getting caught without things I need. It would probably be helpful for you to put together a go-kit for yourself so that you’re prepared when we need to be on location.”

      And then if she doesn’t do it and complains again “Did you think about the go-kit?” and if it still doesn’t happen and she keeps complaining, you can just tell her that you’d rather not hear the complaints, thanks. You understand that she’s missing stuff she wants to have, and it’s her choice whether or not she does anything about that, but if she’s not going to, please don’t keep talking about it.

      2. Colette*

        I wouldn’t suggest the go-kit. That’s Jane’s to manage. Maybe a couple of sympathetic noises, followed by shorter and shorter acknowledgements of her complaints until you ignore them.

    2. NW Mossy*

      Jane: “Oh, I forgot my water bottle and sweater and I’m thirsty and cold!”

      Lemon: “Sorry to hear that.”

      Jane: “Can I borrow yours?”

      Lemon: “Fraid not, I’m using them.”

      Jane: “But….”

      Lemon offers Jane a friendly and noncommittal smile, returns to work

      Seriously, though, this is not your deal to manage. If she’s thirsty and cold, that’s on her. I do the same with my kindergartner – if she doesn’t have the things she needs, she gets to cope with the fallout and I’m not going to swoop in and rescue her from her prior poor planning. Jane can do the same.

    3. Joanna*

      Where possible maybe tell her to go buy what she needs at a nearby shop? Rebuying things she already owns will soon start to frustrate her, hopefully resulting in better preparation

    4. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      I can’t tell from your question if this is the first time this has happened with Jane or if it is a repeated problem. If it’s the first time and she is new, I would give her a pass because she may not have understood what working at another location entailed. Her not bringing her computer, for example, seems crazy to me so did she think that a computer would be made available to her at the location? Because otherwise what the heck. If it is the first time, I would keep an eye out for the repeated behavior the next time you travel together to another location. If she shows up to your car with only her phone, I would ask her where her stuff is and maybe suggest she might want to bring some things with her for the day. But otherwise I think the other two commenters gave some good language suggestions for how to respond to her annoying complaints.

    5. Jaguar*

      “You should probably bring a water bottle next time.”

      Beyond that, just don’t let the complaining or unpreparedness get you down. Many people are like that (I think we all are, to different degrees). If you have it in your head that you need to fix her behaviour or teach her how to manage her life, you should consider the possibility that it’s you that needs to readjust your thinking. That sounds harsh, but if I didn’t bring a lunch or whatever (a thing I’m liable to do) and then I remarked to a coworker that “Wow, I’m getting pretty hungry here” and they took that as an invitation to educate me on how to be an adult, I would be wondering wtf was wrong with them.

    6. Tabby Baltimore*

      A Navy wife of long-ago aquaintance would probably have said “When forgetting to bring those things starts to bother you enough, I’m sure you’ll do something about it.” I would only use this as a last-resort response, though, when you are completely fed up with the complaints.

  152. Sunshine*

    How many times is too many to apply to a company? I spent the better part of two years aggressively job hunting and would apply for just about every job I thought I qualified for (or was almost qualified). I did end up finding a job I am happy enough in, meaning I enjoy it, but don’t know that I love what I do. My degree is in communications and because of the program I followed in college, I have experience and knowledge across just about everything in the field. Where I live, there are quite a few companies/organizations I would love to work for and applied several times unsuccessfully (maybe 3-4 times) during my job search, almost always for different job titles/descriptions. I’m not actively job hunting now, but every once in a while, something will come up that I will apply for because “you never know.” If something were to come up at one of these organizations, should I pass on applying based on previous applications?

    1. BRR*

      I’d apply very sparingly. You want the jobs to be similar to each other so it doesn’t look like you’re just applying to anything.

  153. Dee*

    I posted a while ago about my job search – i left 1 job for another and the 2nd job fell through due to budget issues 3 days before i was due to start. I’ve been searching for work for a few months now. It’s been really hard. But i got a short-term job offer! At last! It’s only 6 months at this stage but i’m glad i’ve gotten it. I also spent some time going through the archives tagged salary and wrote out a little script for myself. It still pays quite a bit less than i’m used to but the script worked! I justified why i was asking for more and the manager used what i said to talk to HR. The only downside is in our 20 minute phone conversation negotiating salary, towards the end i said ‘sorry for being difficult’. I really hate i said that and the manager said ‘you’re not at all’ to me but….i felt like my sticking to this negotiation i was being difficult and it looked bad. Something to work on.Thank you Alison and to this site community!

    1. Colette*

      Congratulations! I’m in month 17 of a 4-month job, so hopefully it will turn into something else or another job will come through during this contact.

  154. Arianwen*

    How do you coordinate getting two jobs in the same area and moving with kids for non-academic jobs. My husband and I both recently finished PhDs and are looking to get out of academia and in to industry. We have two young kids. We’re very willing to relocate but the logistics of things are throwing us. In academic jobs it’s very common to have 3-4 months or more of time between being offered the job and when you actually start but for our industry (biotech) it seems to be much shorter. How long are employers going to expect it to take me between job offer and being able to start when I need to relocate for the job?

    1. jamlady*

      I’ve been given a month for a mid-level job from offer to start for relocating from TX to CA. I’m sure I could have pushed for 2, but I think it’s more likely to get 3-4 months if you’re higher level. Plus, if you have to relocate children and sell/buy homes, I think reasonable hiring managers would work with you on a longer time frame.

      1. Arianwen*

        That’s good to know, thanks. With how the academic calendar works it’s very common that hiring takes place in Nov-Jan for positions that start in June-August, even for relatively low level positions like post docs (at least within our field), perhaps in part because it’s almost expected that you’ll be relocating for the position because it’s so common to move at each step of an academic career. It’s less clear to me what the norm is outside of academia though.

        I’ve had two interviews for industry positions so far and in both cases there seemed to be a lot of pressure to start very quickly despite the fact that I was going to be making a cross-country move to take either position. I was repeatedly asked during the interviews when I felt I could start and don’t know that I did a great job answering. I worried about completely killing my chances or seeming completely out of touch if I gave an answer that was too long a time frame but I also don’t want to set myself up to be trying to make things happen in a really tight timeframe and bringing a lot of extra stress into an already stressful move if it’s reasonable to ask for a little more time.

    2. Catz*

      If you don’t think you’ll have sufficient time to do the full move, here are some other ideas. The first spouse to get an offer moves immediately and rents a short term apartment. The trailing spouse stays behind with kids until they sell the house, get a job offer, or other specific time frame (like beginning/end of school year for kids). Or same as above, but kids move along with forward spouse, trailing spouse stays long enough to sell house and/or get new job (with potentially a short term apartment depending on how the finances work out). I think situation 2 is more equitable, since one spouse is taking care of kids and other is dealing with all move logistics, instead of one doing both, but it depends on a lot of factors (how old are the kids? How long to sell house? How much to move? Can you afford a mortgage and rent? How much rent?). Hopefully you can move fairly quickly (sell the house now and rent until offer? Get rid of a lot of stuff?) and move all together, but you can figure it out if that turns out not to be as option!

  155. Melody Pond*

    I could use some suggestions for how to approach a health issue that will impact my first busy season in an accounting firm, from the wise commentariat here. Potential trigger/discomfort warning here – discussions of menstruation ahead.

    So I’ve had pretty terrible cramping issues ever since I got my copper IUD five years ago. There are typically two, sometimes three days per month where I’m in an extraordinary amount of pain (regardless of painkillers being used) for hours at a time – like maybe 4-6 hours per day. Sometimes I get lucky enough that those hours fall at least partially outside of work hours, or on weekends when I’m not working, but sometimes not.

    For various reasons, I’ve decided that I want to go ahead and get myself permanently sterilized this year and have my IUD removed. I’m hopeful that this will dramatically improve (though probably not eliminate completely) my pain levels on those intensive-pain days. I could either try to squeeze this in very soon – either just before, or at the very beginning of my first busy season in my new accounting job – or, I could wait until after busy season.

    No matter how I handle this, I’m pretty sure that my work during this busy season will be impacted. If I try to have my sterilization procedure done ASAP, it would probably impact me at work at least for a couple days while I recover, but things at work wouldn’t be at their crazy-busiest levels yet. But, if I wait until AFTER busy season, then I know I’m going to have three menstrual cycles to go through, where two-ish days per cycle could impact me at work. One of those would likely be occurring during the only instance where I’m actually scheduled to go out of town to see a client.

    I think that either way, I should have a conversation with someone about this. Possibly with my direct manager and maybe the shareholder at the top of my direct reporting structure (both are female). My instinct is to explain the basic situation and express my preference for getting this procedure done ASAP, and ask if that could be accommodated. But if that can’t be accommodated, then I would be inclined to ask what could be done to plan for those high-pain days, to minimize the disruption on my work.

    Thoughts? What would you guys do if you were in this situation? Thanks, in advance!

    1. Joanna*

      I don’t think you’re under any obligation to say what the surgery is for. I wish this wasn’t the case but it’s possible you’ll get sidetracked by other people’s ethical stances or angst about family planning options. I think it’s fine to just say something like “I have a medical condition that requires surgery in the very near future. If I don’t have it I’m likely to be operating at reduced capacity some of the time due to pain the surgery is designed to address. Given the surgery is going to require ___ days off and ____ day s recovery where I’ll be able to manage a portion of my workload, when does it suit for me to take leave to have the surgery?”

      1. Melody Pond*

        This is a good point – I tend to err on the side of too much detail or specificity, particularly in matters like these at work. I think I don’t yet have the sense that I’m entitled to privacy on these types of things. I tend to feel like I have to explain everything. But this would be totally viable.

      2. Natalie*

        I like this framing overall, but I might err on a little more specificity on the timing issue only, just to make absolutely sure that you and they know what is meant by “very near future”. That is also an opportunity for you to state your preference if you want. So: “I have a medical condition that requires surgery in the very near future, which will require ___ days off and ____ day s recovery where I’ll be able to manage a portion of my workload. My inclination is to schedule the surgery now so that I am fully recovered for our busy season. I can postpone it a few months if needed, but I’m likely to be operating at reduced capacity some of the time due to pain the surgery is designed to address. Given that, which scenario is most suitable?”

    2. LQ*

      My initial instinct is do it sooner, just say you have a procedure that needs to be handled right away, you’re going to have it and it will be done. Don’t go into details. (But I don’t work in accounting so I guess it might be different.)

    3. Episkey*

      One of my friends just had tubal ligation sterilization (as opposed to Essure) and it took her a few days to feel OK enough again that she would be able to go into work. She said she cannot take showers/baths for 2 weeks and can only do sponge baths. So just some info there, I suppose.

      Possible option — can you have the copper IUD taken out and a Mirena inserted? I had a Mirena and my periods practically went away and it’s supposed to be great for people with heavy/painful periods PLUS I’ve heard the copper IUD can greatly exacerbate cramps/bleeding/pain. Obviously if you are trying to avoid hormonal bc, the Mirena wouldn’t be an option, but I really liked mine while I had it.

      1. Melody Pond*

        I appreciate the spirit of what you’re trying to do, but I wasn’t looking for alternative suggestions for the medical issue at hand. I’m already quite certain about how I want to deal with it, medically. It was how to approach it with my employer that I was grappling with.

    4. persimmon*

      I think you need to make this decision on your own and then tell your manager what you need. No one except you can know what your pain feels like and how it is affecting you, and it seems just too much responsibility/inappropriate to put your manager in that thought process, even if it were a different kind of medical problem. Sometimes people have health issues that can’t be scheduled, they’ll survive whatever you decide.

  156. Leigh*

    Hi all! Happy New Year!

    I had my first interview of the year, and first since the whole “hired, but wait…you’re not worth what we offered you after all because you’re not making close to that now, so never mind” debacle of 2016.

    Right out of the gate, during this interview, which was with HR and not the hiring manager, who will interview me if I passed muster on interview one, I was asked what I’m making now, and I told her, figuring that’s what bit me at the very end of the aforementioned debacle.

    It’s a low salary for my field and experience, but there is no wiggle because I am a contractor and “any money is better than no money.” She responded that the number surprised her. She made no mention of what they’re offering and didn’t ask me what I was looking for.

    So, question for the community: I’m knocking on the door of 20 years in my field and I’m interviewing for senior-level roles. This is two in a row where I’ve been asked my current salary. Is that the new norm until it’s illegal, and how are you responding?

    This is a well-regarded “top-rated employer” as was the debacle company. Appreciate guidance on level setting expectations and responses.

    Thank you!

    1. animaniactoo*

      Q: Did you also share that you knew it was low and that was part of why you were looking?

      Followup Q: I know there was discussion around not disclosing at all*, and standing behind saying “I’d prefer not to disclose that and would rather focus on what the market rate for the position is” or something to that effect. Was there a reason you didn’t do that here?

      2nd followup Q: Is there a reason you didn’t ask what their range was?

      *Because debacle company was completely *not normal* for how they handled this, and you should not take that experience as a marker for how to approach this in future.

      1. Leigh*

        Thanks.

        I did say I knew it was low and it was part of the reason for my job search.

        I didn’t ask what they were hiring at because I was rattled that they asked current right out of the gate during a pre-screening interview, when that was the whole source of debacle at the tail end of seven interviews with nine people and a verbal job offer from HR.

        I was expecting to have to address desired salary question, not expecting the current salary question. That was why I was asking if “current” was part of the new normal. I’ve stopped applying for positions where the online application has a required current salary field.

        Honestly, anything that’s a direct hire for the same work I’m doing now would be *at least* a 20% bump, which I would be thrilled to get.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Gotcha. Thus the question about setting expectations. From what I’ve seen in comments here, it’s not the new normal but it’s common enough that you should always be prepared to be asked for it and be prepared to refuse to share it.

          Well done on being clear that you were aware it’s low and part of the reason you’re job hunting. That’s a great head’s up to them that low balling you would be a problem.

  157. Kat M*

    Any help for getting over anxiety about applying for jobs I’m technically not qualified for?

    One in particular is a near-perfect fit: great hours, good organization, and more money than I’ve ever made per hour. They want at least a year of experience in my field, and I have ten! But …

    they’re demanding a degree as one of their “minimum requirements.” Which I don’t have.

    This isn’t one of those licensing-type issues (which I understand), it’s just that they’re in an upscale suburb and they figure anyone worth a crap has at least a BA. Maybe it looks good on their grant applications too. That sort of thing.

    Any advice? I just moved to a new town with an economy that’s weaker than the last place I lived (where they were just throwing jobs at anyone who had decent grammar and regularly showed up on time), and now all my options seem to consist of going back to working for $9 an hour or taking a stab at openings that require a degree.

    1. Joanna*

      Remember that everyone gets anxious sometimes and the worst that can happen is that they reject your application. There’s no harm in trying for something you meet most of the qualifications for and something on your resume may catch someones eye

    3. Jillociraptor*

      Whenever I have anxiety like this, I try to ask myself seriously, “What’s the bad thing I’m worried will happen, and how likely is it to happen?”

      When you’re applying for a job, unless you really go out of your way to mess something up, pretty much the worst thing that can happen to you is that you don’t advance in the process. Right? There’s no resume jail for people who apply to positions where they don’t meet every requirement. Unless you’re radically off-base, it’s very unlikely that you’ll even warrant a raised eyebrow for applying without a degree. They still might not pick you, but that’s true of any job!

      This is why I always hassled my HR folks to let me remove the BA requirement from entry level job postings… I’m sure you’d be a great candidate and I hope they choose to read your application in that light!

  158. Michael Scarn*

    I was reviewing a form the other day that needed the signature of a company officer. My boss told me off the cuff that I could sign it. I was puzzled and said, “But I’m not a company officer,” he said, “you’re Assistant Treasurer as of our last board meeting.” The last board meeting was in October. I was so shocked and he left my office right after, that I didn’t have a chance to ask more questions. I can’t see in our payroll system that my title has changed, so now I’m sitting on this information not really sure of what to do with it. It’s been 2 years since my last performance review (we’re supposed to have them annually and I do them for all my staff annually, but he’s notorious for falling behind). Last week he apologized for the delay and said he had completed it but that it was with his boss and HR to review, so I figured we’d be able to go over the review this week and I would get some more information on the promotion like: does it come with a raise, are there any new responsibilities, should I update my email signature, will an announcement be made (usually promotions are in a company-wide announcement)? His boss has been out most of the week, so I guess my review is not approved yet, so I’m still just waiting. I guess for now I’m the (Secret) Assistant (to the) Treasurer.

  159. Lucy Westenra*

    Things have been frustrating. I have to learn a skill to get my job back. I have a tab open on my browser right next to this one for a course in that skill that leads to a certification. I cannot look at this page for long periods of time, never mind sign up for anything. Even though nothing bad’s going to happen. Even though it would help me get my job back, and I do love my job. It’s probably the old anxiety creeping back up into my head. Guess I just need a shot in the arm of courage.

    1. Colette*

      Take one step. Start with signing up, then take another step (start the course). It’s the only way to get going on intimidating tasks.

  160. Onnellinen*

    Came home from a vacation last night to discover, unfortunately, someone broke into my house earlier in the day. To make matters worse, the most expensive thing they stole appears to be my company-issued computer, which I had in the house. I’ve contacted Security and IT, and filed a police report. Does anyone have any experience navigating something like this? I’m assuming it would not be covered by my homeowners policy, but I honestly have no idea what to do next. Still waiting to hear from Security on what they need me to do.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Unfortunately I do. It was my computer but had company info on it. You’ve taken all the right steps so far. As long as your home was reasonably secure AND there’s no policy about returning the computer to the office when you’re going to be away for a few days, it will fall under the company’s business insurance or they’ll write it off and either way it should be replaced by them the same as it would be if you were in the office and rendered it unusable by spilling coffee on it.

    3. Tuesday*

      I’m so sorry to hear that. My house was broken into in broad daylight in a fairly busy neighborhood and it still makes me angry years later. If you haven’t already, check to make sure any spare car keys you have are still there. I didn’t notice mine were gone after the burglary, and so my car was stolen a couple of days later. (I got it back, but it was the only thing I got back. They caught one of the thieves, but he was uncooperative and under 18 and nothing really came of it.)

    4. Natalie*

      This happened to a friend of mine (while he was sleeping in the next room!) and everything was just fine. There may be some back and forth between your insurance and your work’s insurance but that probably won’t involve you at all.

    5. Anonenony*

      It may depend on what was on the computer. This happened to a friend of mine, unfortunately shortly after he had downloaded some files with confidential info in them, needed for a work project, While he was working from home. He was put on (fortunately paid) leave until police and company investigations confirmed that he had no part in the crime, and that the data hadn’t been sold by the burglars. Even if he didn’t do the crime, he apparently failed to “secure” his computer sufficiently…don’t know if it was supposed to be chained to a desk or in a separate locked office but I don’t see how that would have helped when they broke into the house.
      It was all resolved and he went back to work, but he would have been fired if it had gone another way. I think the burglars were probably local teens who wiped the drive and sold it or used it, and the files were never noticed.
      Not sure what advice to offer. Cooperate and be as transparent as possible? Good luck!

  161. Anon 2017*

    I spent the last half of 2016 moving a bunch of new versions of our existing teapot and teapot support line on to prototyping and manufacturing because my bosses promised that I would get to work on an entirely new teapot design starting this week.

    I got to work on Monday following our holiday break, excited to get going, only to find out that our company owner decided over the holidays that there isn’t anything wrong with the current teapots and so my new design is on hold and probably dead. I am a little bit angry but mostly very disappointed; I was so looking forward to this new project.

    However, there is a silver lining: my immediate supervisor has put me on a committee with several other people to have regular status meetings on all our stoneware projects and make sure we’re all up to speed on what’s going on company-wide. So far, those meetings have had a lot of “I had no idea we were doing new salt and pepper shakers this year!” types of comments, and we’re all getting a better picture of what’s going on. (And the rest of the committee told me that they thought my teapot design was a good idea and were sorry to learn it was back-burnered, which made me feel a little better.)

    Awesome supervisor also approved my request to spend some time each week on our company’s Lynda.com account learning about glazing and best kiln practices, which are skills I’d been hoping to hone on the bigger project because I think they’ll make me a better employee in general and give me more room to advance down the road. So at least I won’t be twiddling my thumbs.

  162. anonnonnon*

    How do you provide availability for interviews while you’re waiting for other interviews to be scheduled? ie I let one company know I’m available x, y and z, but because then other companies want my availability and I’ve given them all my time slots…do I just hope they actually ask before they confirm? (Have just encountered a recruiter who sends a confirmation before asking if I can do a slot…which is not in the times I sent them…). Or should I send out different availability to different recruiters, which works okay for phone interviews, but not so much for in person, especially if they are flying you out…

    1. SeekingBetter*

      This is hard because you don’t know when you’ll hear back from the other organizations or recruiters. From my experience, I email them back some times and dates that I’m available. It’s on a first-come-first-serve basis: Company A gets my interview confirmation for Tuesday at 10am. Company B may want to confirm the same time and date, but they lose out on this so I reply telling them that there’s a scheduling conflict and suggest with a different time and date. Sure, organizations who have limited time and date slots they want to conduct interviews on will be slightly inconvenienced, but it’s better than not giving yourself enough time inbetween interviews and/or having the interviews accidentally scheduled for the same time and date.

      1. anonnonnon*

        Yeah, I think that’s what I’m going to have to end up doing. I was fine with it for first round type deals, that are only one person, but you feel worse if its a half day on site with a bunch of people to coordinate..

    1. overeducated*

      Best: one part of my job involves trying to build relationships with universities and recruit students, and we have this ambitious regional plan for this that we’re not quite ready to roll out yet. In the meanwhile, my alma maters (almae materae?) emailed me asking for summer internship postings, so I put together couple of tailored announcements, ran them by my boss, and posted them on Wednesday. This afternoon, we got our first letter of interest and resume from a student at my college. This is exciting for three reasons: 1) I love my college and she looks awesome on paper, 2) I’m worried about pay and local housing costs making some internships out of reach, but I know the college has multiple program-specific and general scholarship funds for student internships because I used them myself, and this student is local, and 3) my organization has very, very slow-moving processes, so I’m excited that there was an opportunity to just…slip something through and get it done.

      Worst: I totally overshared about personal life stuff with two colleagues at lunch today. Like, I don’t even want to tell you guys what I said. Wish I could take it back. Also, I am going to try to apply for two jobs tonight even though I’m only a few months into my current one because I’m not a permanent employee, and the new administration is expected to kill my sector :(

  164. Jessen*

    So I’m realizing my new position requires me to do something I’ve never really done in a work environment – offer feedback on other people’s mistakes. Due to the nature of the work, this is at least generally straightforward; “you did X when SOP is to do Y.” I’m not a supervisor; I send feedback to the agent, their supervisor, and a few other people. But I am well aware that I’m now in a position that’s really affecting other people in a way being another worker bee didn’t.

    Any advice, psychological or otherwise?

    1. Graciosa*

      Focus on the process rather than the person (even when the person is not following the process).

      This doesn’t mean no one will ever take it personally, but you don’t need to be the one to make it a personal issue.

  165. r_ravenclaw*

    Hi Everyone!

    I’ve been at my current job for a little less than a year. I like it very much but the role is not in my area of preference. I love the company though and I’m starting to dream about transferring to my department of choice. I’m just struggling with how to do that with grace.

    Do I need to wait until a job opens up in the department I like?
    How can I network with the VP and other employees of the department I like? Our departments don’t overlap at all. So if I ever do see them it’s for five seconds in the hallway.
    How do I pursue my area of interest without offending my current boss? I like him well enough, and he did give me a chance when I needed a job.

    Thanks!

    1. Colette*

      How do you know you like the department if you only see them for 5 seconds in the hallway?

      Is there a way to incorporate the work you like in your current job? If so, that’s a good start – you can talk with your manager and express interest in adding work in area x.

      In most places, you’re a little early to be switching departments – especially if there’s no strong business need for more people in the department you like – pbut you may be able to do work more in line with what you want in your current role.

  166. Reference Paranoia*

    I have a question about grad school references! I submitted my application for grad school (yay?) earlier this week and, of course, the institution requested three references. One reference has already submitted his reference for me and another one sent me an email saying that he’ll do it shortly.

    I haven’t heard back from my third reference yet, I know she was keeping an eye on her email for it (as of last month, when I last chatted with her), would it be okay for me to send her a separate email early next week just reminding her to fill it out? I don’t want to be annoying about it, but I just want to make sure my references get in before they’re due (Feb. 1). I do have a feeling that this might’ve been a busy work week for her, so I don’t want to bother her too much.

    1. Emac*

      Congratulations! I don’t think it would be bothering her to just send a short message saying something like “just wanted to let you know I submitted my application last week; the deadline is Feb 1. Thanks again for doing this.”

    2. alex*

      I write these all the time; I prefer a reminder email about 1 week before the absolute deadline. Feb 1 still feels a long time away, and she might literally have the task penciled in for the last day in January. So in my opinion a reminder now is too early and a little annoying. Just my experience.

      Congrats on applying! That’s a huge task!

    1. Rebecca*

      So boss decided if an ambulance was needed or not. Well, since he’s being sued, and the plant is closed, I wonder how that’s working out for him. Wow. I guess we need to start the list early!

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        I used to work for a large manufacturing company who would get really mad if you called 911 after an accident. One time, the boss was being so threatening about it that the Union Rep called from his cellphone and waited at the front doors to swipe them in, knowing he couldn’t be fired for it.

        We had a crash cart and nurses and EMTs in-house, but I think that day they were busy with some other accident.

  168. Beem*

    I’m very angry about what happened at work today.

    When the news of today’s shooting hit the office, someone walked across the cubicle farm and said, “How much you wanna bet the shooter’s name is Mohammad?” A few minutes later, “Seriously, I bet his name is Mohammad or something. I got a little something riding on it.” WHAT.

    What do I do? I could bring her some of the nuts and dried fruit from my grandparent’s village in Iran and say, “Hey, my grandfather’s name is Mohammad. It’s actually the most common name in the world.”

    (She works for another company – there are like three very small companies in the office of about 15 people. My boss and I share one of the office rooms.)

    1. Emac*

      Oh that’s awful, I’m so sorry you have to deal with someone like that. Maybe the nuts and fruit would help her see how hateful and disgusting her comments were.

    2. Wakeen Teapots, Ltd.*

      Well that’s horrible.

      What I’m sure I’d do, bearing in mind that I’m bold and can be aggressive, is say exactly that, in front of as many people as possible, and walk away hoping she was embarrassed and felt like shit.

      I’m sure there’s a better response to promote cross cultural understanding and blah blah.

      1. printrovert*

        That’s repugnant.

        I would do one of two things. Option 1: politely inform her that her comment is offensive and can be easily misconstrued. Use those exact words: “Jane, I do not think that’s very appropriate. Comments like that are offensive and can easily be misconstrued.” If she asks how it could be offensive, explain and even include that you have a relative who has that name and that it is a fairly common name. Bring up the fact that you all are sharing an office and that keeping and promoting harmony will ensure a pleasant working environment as well as a positive image of each company. Option 2: discuss it with your boss and see if there is any way that this can be addressed among the office supervisors. This will depend if your boss has a relationship with any of the other supervisors in the office space and if there is some sort of agreement about decorum.

        1. Colette*

          I don’t think it can be misconstrued. And this isn’t a theoretical situation – she’s actively offending people.

          I’d just let her know that I was offended – “wow!” “I’m offended” “You mean like my grandfather?” “What an awful thing to say!”

    3. Jessesgirl72*

      Is it wrong of me to hope the person who said it is Hispanic- specifically Puerto Rican, like we now know the shooter is? Not that it has anything to do with his race, and everything to do with his mental illness (and the horrible way we ignore it in our Veterans!) but maybe if it turned her way, she’d learn something.

      It actually doesn’t matter than you and she work for different companies. Report this to your boss. Racism isn’t okay from anyone in the office, even if the racist works for someone else.

  169. Theo*

    Hi, I am new here and I am glad there’s an open thread!

    I have been a college grad class of spring 2-15, and I have been struggling to find a full time job in my field. I have a BS in Biotech and a minor in chemistry and biology. The first year out of college I have like maybe 5 interviews related to my job at most, but 2 of them were kind of referred from mom’s friend’s friend or something. (One I had a really bad experience with but I’m not here to talk about that.)

    I have been through up and downs emotionally but right now I am not too depress so I am okay. I am currently working in a company as a food concession worker, which pays a little more than minimum wage but the hours are so event based that it’s worse than retail part time IMO, LOL. I have shattered the illusion that my degree means I am qualified, I have fought through the worse un/under employment blues, and I am hoping that I would still get a job. Heck, I have been turned away from a lab job from a big hospital because I have no data entry experience (or lab I guess). Yet, when I try to apply for anything high (lab, but not research assistant I don’t think it’s for me), middle (office, data entry, receptionist, office admin), to low (manufacturing plant, similar cashier job in food service), I have no hope of employment or getting more hours/pay haha.

    I kind of just started rewriting my cover letter to have my voice in it, and even explaining for jobs that I might be “overqualified with a degree”/”underqualified with no experience” why it appeals to me. So far the two I wrote for ended up not even asking for cover letter in the application (but in the candidate profile I can attach it, huh?). Also, resume with accomplishments, but the work I did in the past were hard to put down an accomplishment. I don’t even have access to what customers write in their responses. I mean I am told good job or best worker by some managers I worked with, and my professor that I volunteered in research a bit, but it’s hard to put down what the hell I accomplished. (The research I did was more of labor based that still involve science, but yet every job opening wants chemistry or technical skills that I don’t have or don’t have years of experiences of).

    I am sorry if this is a ramble. I am just, trying to figure out what on earth I need to do. No, I don’t want to go to grad school for masters or phD. I know that I lacked real life experiences and good work experiences, but I can’t find them. I thought about getting certificates in things that might help me get hired like maybe six sigma or OSHA or manufacturing things, but they’re either way expensive than my bank account or it makes me doubtful if it will even help.

    Ok I’ll stop rambling here because it’s late and my train of thought is gonna be messy. Thanks for reading.

    1. Colette*

      That sounds frustrating. Definitely keep going with the cover letters – they might not help all the time, but they will help some of the time.

      Is there any place you can volunteer to get data entry or other relevant skills?

      Did you do any job placements as part of your degree? If so, can you reach out to contacts from those to get an idea what they look for when they hire (not to ask for a job, but to get ideas of where to go)? If not, can you use your network (including your mom’s friends) for that information?

      1. Theo*

        thanks for the reply. No job placements. it was part of my fault for not applying for internships because my driving skills weren’t good and I started learning to drive later than everyone in life. My high school friends/acquaintances had job when they were in high school and I didn’t get my first job till second year in college. -_-”

        I will definitely try to get volunteering in some way to expand my skills, but I think I’ll give first two weeks of january a try on posting new stuff now that we’re in the new year.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      I’m not sure if this will help you with your cover letter any, but you might try going into AAM’s archives and searching on “accomplishments” (you can start with this URL: https://www.askamanager.org/2014/02/how-to-rewrite-your-resume-to-focus-on-accomplishments-not-just-job-duties.html) or “resume” and see what turns up. AAM also has other resources designed to help job seekers like yourself, such as this e-book (https://www.askamanager.org/how-to-get-job-e-book) which is priced very modestly, in my opinion. Best of luck!

  170. sad procrastinator*

    This week I had made another mistake at work that will cause some hassles for some of my colleagues. My Dept Head presented me with a reports list two months ago on what documents to retrieve for my Headquarter’s inspection. My Dept Head has shown me how to use the basic functions of a new software in order to retrieve some of the documents. The last two months were the busiest times for my department. I was swamped with my regular duties, while I make myself some time to try the new software to get the reports.

    I managed to get some reports from the new software, but when I looked at the reports list again I find some of the date requirement confusing. I tried to ask my Dept Head, but he said that he doesn’t know how to do the reports. He suggest that I ask Senior Colleague A for help, since the colleague has done these in the past. I ask Senior Colleague A about the date requirement, and he gave me a vague response. I ask is it the end of the year, and he sort of said probably now, it should be last quarter. I did not quite understand it. I use the new software to retrieve reports on the date range that I think the reports list is requesting. I ask Senior Colleague A to look over the documents I have and to let me know if I need to change anything.

    As the days go by I was swamped with my regular duties and I using as much time as I can to keep up with finishing my regular job tasks. Senior Colleague A never responded to me. I reminded him about three times, and not a word. He later on went on vacation, which I found out recently, will actually take two weeks. Which is when the inspection will have already started.

    Throughout the last few days before the inspection, I tried using the new software to retrieve more reports, but it doesn’t seem to have the flexibility to show the reports I needed. I ask my Dept Head again and he said that I can email Senior Colleague A or ask Senior Colleague B. I emailed Senior Colleague A and there’s no response again. So finally, I ask Senior Colleague B and she was able to teach me and help me retrieve a lot of the reports on the list. She was not too happy when I told her the inspection will be coming soon, but she did gave me a lot of help. She uses the old software to retrieve most of the reports and she was clear in explaining to me the date requirements. I retrieve the remaining reports using the old software from then on.

    However, there are a few documents that needs to be generated by Senior Colleague A and a few documents that I need to get from another department. I contacted the other department at the very last two days. I also let my Dept Head know that I have contacted them and am waiting for their response. I am not sure if the other department can get the reports because these past two months were their busiest time too. I also emailed Senior Colleague A that he has to provide the reports that only he can generate.

    From gathering these reports, I learned that the new software isn’t of too much help. It only lets me retrieve a small number of reports, while the old software helps me retrieve the majority of the needed reports.

    Looking back at my situation, I am figuring out what went wrong. I think my biggest mistake was not being proactive in seeking more help in gathering my reports. I should have said something along the lines of “are you sure you have time to check my report” to Senior Colleague A when he wasn’t responding after my many attempts to remind him. I should have ask Dept Head if there is anyone else I can ask when Senior Colleague A was occasionally out of the office. I did not handle this new project well. I am uncertain if all the needed reports will be turned in on time before the inspectors asked for it.

    This is my second mistake where I have lost track of time in my work projects and needed people’s help in the last minute. The first mistake was that I ran out of time doing my regular duties. But this year, I got all caught up on my regular duties, but fail to work efficiently on my reports project. During the project, I was unaware of who else I can ask for help. I also spent too much time learning the new software even when it cannot help me get most of the reports.

    On my next project, I would definitely try to avoid these mistakes. I am still uncertain about how this project will go. I was assigned this project as part of my new duties as I move up the ladder, and I wanted to improve after this mistake.

    I am still thinking back to see if there are other lessons I can learn from this.

  171. job search after being fired*

    Hi,

    How long will it usually take for someone who was fired from the job to find a new job, provide that the reason for firing was simply not doing well on old job?

    Is there a unique approach that must be taken when job searching after a firing?

    1. Colette*

      That’s really depends on the industry and the person. The main thing after being fired is to think about how to explain the situation factually and without emotion.

      Good luck!

    2. Rob Lowe can't read*

      It depends on so many things that there’s really no way to answer this question. You mention being fired for not doing well in the old job. Does that mean not doing well in all aspects of the job, or in a key aspect of the job, or not doing well in one specific aspect that could be avoided? For example, if a receptionist at an office has to answer the phone, greet visitors, and order office supplies, she might have trouble getting receptionist jobs in the future if she is rude to visitors and forgets to answer the phone. Those are key functions of the job. But if she’s great with visitors and helpful on the phone but forgets to order more office supplies when they are needed, she might be able to get a job as a receptionist that doesn’t include supply ordering as a duty of the position.

      1. job search after being fired*

        I meant being fired for not performing the main function of the job well.

        After being fired, will we try to look for jobs in the same industry again or should we just approach a different industry.

        Sometimes we only have skills in the industry we got fired from. And I am not sure how to approach the job search if we were to be fired.

        Thank you for your insight.

  172. GrumpyPants*

    Hey AAM community, I could use some words of wisdom! I work in a really passive-aggressive office of about 30 or so women. There’s a lot of back-stabbing and gossiping going on. We recently had one worker transfer to another department as she had started to date a guy one of the leads had dated, and the lead and a couple of her friends (who also work in our office) started a hate campaign against this gal, both in the office and on social media. Our supervisors were aware of all this, I don’t know if any discipline action was taken, but I do know that the hating continued. HR was aware of what was going on. So she transferred to another department on another of our campuses. Since then, the whole gossiping, hating on others, passive-aggressive stuff has really gotten worse. And now I find out I am one of the targeted people. So what do I do about it? Ignore it? I feel like if I go to my supervisors, they won’t do anything, given how they dealt with the other gal’s situation. One of the worst offenders in my case is an old friend of both the supervisors, and talks a lot about how ‘Christian’ she is.

  173. August*

    I’m graduating in April (and I’m terrified!); since I study political science and languages, ideally, I’d like to have a career in federal government. Does anyone happen to have any insight as to the job searching or hiring process in that area? I feel like I’m going in blind here.

  174. Jane*

    Hi fellow AAM readers! I just landed a job offer after several months of talking with this company. They have dream clients, the money is good and benefits are great. I’ve read a few comments on this blog about not waiting until the last minute to ask for a work-from-home day – seems like I made that mistake by waiting until I received the offer letter to ask for Fridays from home. I have a good personal reason for this (my husband works in another city two hours away and I will commute there on weekends) – also they advertise a flexible work environment on their website, several people in the company work remotely from out of state, and it is very common generally in my industry to have one day a week from home. Many of the teams I will be working with are based in other cities, so I would be teleworking with them anyway even if I was in the office full-time.

    Given all of this I was a bit surprised to be denied the request straight away. The HR person (who has been facilitating everything throughout the process) said although they are flexible when needed, they don’t tend to give a set day from home. She discussed it with the hiring manager who also said that they are open to a discussion in six months but can’t guarantee anything.

    I can understand the reasoning that they don’t want to give WFH privilege to someone new before building a working relationship, but can’t help feeling a bit let-down that they seem to be so flexible in other ways but not with this request. I am worrying that the workplace environment is not going to be as flexible as I had hoped (with things like moving my schedule earlier to catch my 4pm train on Fridays, for example). How can I move past this and get excited about this job opportunity again? And how can I make sure the request doesn’t “red flag” me to the hiring manager as being too demanding before I even start?

    1. Gaara*

      It seems to me that there is a difference between moving your schedule a couple hours earlier (depending on the kind of work you do, at least) and working from home on Fridays.

      But to try to avoid marking yourself as too demanding, I would probably wait, if possible, until you actually start work and can build a relationship with your manager and develop a reputation for reliability. It’s easier to ask for these kinds of things after they know they can trust you.

      If you can’t wait, though, I would explain the situation and ask if moving your Friday schedule earlier would be a possibility. It’s not clear to me if you actually explained why you were making the initial request, but I do think this is information that makes your request more understandable and if they can, they may be more likely to want to work with you.

  175. Anonforthispost*

    I gave my notice at toxic workplace. “Felicity” is my passive-aggressive coworker. (She could either be your best friend or worst enemy depending on her mood and the time of day.) My immediate boss who wasn’t the main boss “Fergus” never liked me and made that fact very clear. Plus I think he was worried that I would one day potentially be his boss because you need a degree in Teapot Making and while Fergus has many degrees, he doesn’t have that one. So as soon as I gave my notice Felicty goes, “Fergus should be boss. You shouldn’t need your degree in Teapot Making to be the boss, etc.”

    So is that why they were so cold to me? Were they threatened that I would be the future boss and they didn’t want that?

  176. newbie*

    I have been at a new job that is a great fit for me for 3 weeks now. I think I’m really going to excel at it and have fun doing it – yay! The problem is that I am really struggling with not excelling at it yet. I keep reading how long it takes to really get the hang of a new job, but have this nearly constant anxiety that I’m not doing enough quickly enough. Intellectually, I mostly understand that it is going to take some time and that people are happy with my work so far. I have been getting solely positive feedback and reassurance that they will be open with me there are areas that I am not meeting expectations (and that they expect it to take 6+ months for me to get up to speed). However, I cannot seem to get my emotions to understand this! I am so insecure and feel like I need constant reassurance – I’m annoying myself! I am obsessing over small comments they make (like that it was a highly competitive application process and that one of the reasons I was chosen was because I could hit the ground running). I keep thinking I should know more or do more despite all of the evidence that I’m meeting or exceeding expectations. There is a lot of evidence that they were all but planning to hire someone else who had previously worked there (who was friends with everyone), but that I came ahead of her in the final interview stage. They have been extremely welcoming to me, but I can’t shake the feeling that they are going to regret hiring me over her.

    I feel like it’s relevant that I was extremely badly managed in my last position. I got absolutely no feedback for years until someone told me that there were several high level meetings happening about me without my knowledge. Apparently, they were extremely unhappy with my work – specifically, I had been prioritizing day-to-day operations when they wanted me to prioritize bigger picture issues. Apparently, they had these frustrations with me for years, but nobody told me they wanted me to shift priorities and I was working to the only feedback I received – from people who benefited from us having very solid day-to-day operations. Now I am having a hard time trusting that my supervisors will be direct with me if they want me to do something differently, so I’m overanalyzing everything and trying to read between the lines. I’m driving myself crazy and then I’m getting getting worried that I’m driving other people crazy with my craziness.

    I do deal with occasionally severe depression and anxiety, which I’m sure is complicating what might be some typical emotions. I am medicated and in counseling, so I am getting the bigger mental health support I need. What I’m needing help with, though, is how to build confidence in a new position. How do I build more reasonable expectations of myself? How do I take feedback at face value instead of assuming there is a “but” that is unsaid? This is the first new job I’ve had in a decade, so I’m not used to being the person who doesn’t know anything. The transition is turning out to be a lot more difficult that I anticipated despite it being unequivocally the best move for my career and life.

    1. Colette*

      What about making a list at the end of the day of everything you did well? That will reinforce what your getting right instead of focusing your attention on what you’re still learning.

  177. Delphine*

    I did a LOT of, let’s say, chocolate teapot-making and strawberry teapot-making in college, which I graduated from in May. I held a lot of leadership positions related to both on campus, and I was overjoyed when a professional chocolate teapot-making company that I had wanted to work for for several years hired me as an intern this past summer. But basically, I learned from my experience that the chocolate teapot industry is actually very cynical and gritty in a way that I realized very quickly wasn’t a sustainable long-term option for me. As a result, I am now happily applying to and getting interviews for internships and jobs with strawberry teapot companies. (I have had one strawberry teapot internship before. It went pretty well.) I am kind of sad that I’m leaving chocolate teapots behind, but teapot-making is teapot-making at the end of the day.

    I have been asked recently in interviews about the fact that my resume is half chocolate teapots and half strawberry teapots, as well as why I want to go into strawberry teapots as opposed to chocolate. Is my reasoning a valid thing to mention – – that I realized that the “real-world” chocolate teapot industry is not something my personality is suited to, or does it look like I have trouble adapting to uncomfortable situations?

    Thanks!

    1. Ultraviolet*

      I would try to frame it in terms of positives rather than negatives–describe what you like about the strawberry industry rather than what you don’t like about the chocolate industry. The interviewer would probably rather hear that there are reasons you’re drawn toward their job, not just that you dislike your other options.

  178. LL*

    I am in a really bad and toxic job situation and have been looking for jobs since I hit my one year mark, which was pretty recently. I applied to many jobs, some I was very interested in the position, some I was just interested in working at that hospital. I have been invited to interview this week at a large healthcare system for a project manager role. The thing is, the job posting is incredibly vague. I am not even sure what this project is that I would be managing. I know one of the first things they will ask is why I am interested in the role. What would you say when you don’t know what the project is? Do you just talk about the company?

    1. Freya*

      Perhaps just talk about how you enjoy that type role, and say some flattering things about the company, then ask them to give your more detailed information?

      If it makes you feel better, the role I’m in now is a job I’d never heard of in an industry I didn’t know existed! I had gone through a recruitment agency and the company were interested in my (apparently) unique combination of skills & experience (read: I’ve done allsorts and have no ‘career path’) – at the interview I literally just said that I didn’t know what the role involved and asked them to explain it (including what I’d be doing day-to-day) to me in more detail. Tbh if the posting was vague that’s their problem and they should be ready to answer your questions – if they can’t or won’t clarify – RUN. Nothing worse than going from one toxic job to another so you need to cover your bases as best you can.

      Good luck!

  179. anon long time reading non-gift giver*

    Probably too late for anyone to see this, but here it is anyway. Feels good to just type it out. I posted last week about my boss saying she felt unappreciated when we did not give her an Xmas gift. I was so angry over that whole conversation, I still am. Apparently, I am not able to hide it well because she called me in and asked me what was wrong and why was I so unhappy working there. I did not go into great detail with her (I’ll just get worked up again and say something horrible…. ) but I did say that I believe it is time to work out my exit strategy. So! I will be leaving, thank GOD, I just do not know exactly when yet. Probably the end of the month.

    In the meantime, they don’t know I’ve already been interviewing and I have what I hope is a promising opportunity. I interviewed last week and it was great. They have already called on my references (I found that out over the weekend) which I take as a good sign. I am not betting that I got the job just get, but I will sure take all of the good vibes, prayers, fingers and toes crossed “you go girl” thought waves in my direction. I really want this job!!

    1. ExcitedAndTerrified*

      It sounds like they’re considering you seriously, at least, and that’s an awesome thing.

      Good luck, and all the best wishes.

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