my employee knowingly brought norovirus into the office and got a bunch of people sick

by Alison Green on February 6, 2017

A reader writes:

One of my direct reports knowingly brought norovirus into the office and didn’t tell anyone about, even after people began falling ill.

Her child had norovirus and was banned from attending daycare until he was no longer contagious. She brought him to work with her and kept him in her office. She did not ask permission to bring him to work. He was still ill but was feeling better, and he came out of her office because there was a potluck and he saw the cake and the food on a table by the coffee maker. It was at this point that she was found out (for bringing him to work) and was asked to take him home. But he had already been in the office for several hours and had been in contact with food from the potluck. She also had him in the women’s washroom and one of the meeting rooms. No one knew he was sick at the time, but other people soon fell ill and also brought the virus home to their families.

One of my direct reports has a child who is undergoing chemotherapy and who had to be hospitalized when she got sick. Another gave it to his grandmother, who resides in a retirement home. Pretty much everyone who works in my section was off sick from the norovirus at some point (diagnosis confirmed by public health).

After public health spoke to the person who brought her sick child to work when they were investigating the outbreak in our office, she admitted to knowing his daycare had a norovirus outbreak and still bringing her sick child to the office. She did not speak up when others started getting sick, even though they had all the same symptoms as her son.

Her assistant also confided to me that she (the assistant) had taken a message from the daycare about the child needing to be picked up due to the outbreak and that he was sick, but she did not know that her boss brought him back to the office.

We have paid sick time and she would not have been penalized for using it. She told public health she didn’t think a few hours was a big deal.

Now everyone is upset with her and no one will talk to her or go near unless it absolutely necessary for work. I am wondering what the best way to handle this is. I got sick and it was terrible, so I understand why people are upset.

Ooooh. I am still nursing a grudge against whoever was the source of a terrible, long-lasting illness I got last fall (it was someone in Scotland, and that’s as far as I’ve been able to narrow it down … so far).  I can understand people being really unhappy about this.

Has your employee acknowledged anything about this since it all came out? Has she indicated that she realizes she made a mistake, that she feels badly, and that she won’t repeat the mistake in the future?

If she hasn’t done all of that, I’d do three things:

1. Have a serious talk with her and ask what she was thinking. If she says she didn’t think it would be a big deal, ask if she’s changed that assessment since seeing what happened. Make sure she’s clear on what you need her to do differently going forward if her son is sick — or if she’s sick, for that matter.

Also, suggest that it would help her relations with her colleagues to explain that she misjudged the situation and feels terrible about it, and that it won’t happen again. She doesn’t need to walk around in a hair shirt, but she does need people to know that she’s taking responsibility for the bad judgment that ended up impacting them.

2. I’m not a big fan of issuing policies or reminders to a whole group just because one person messed up, but this is a situation where your employees would probably appreciate an office-wide statement that sick kids can’t come to work with their parents, so that they have some assurance that you’re invested in preventing it from happening again.

3. As long as people are being civil to this employee when they do need to interact, and as long as they aren’t avoiding her when their work would benefit from talking to her, you can’t insist that they become chummy with her again. But if the avoidance is still continuing after a couple of weeks, at that point it’s probably worth pointing out to them that she genuinely didn’t realize the potential consequences of what she was doing and that she’s learned her lesson (assuming that’s true), and that while her bad judgment here had real consequences for people, it’s not great for any of us if we get permanently shunned after making a mistake.

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  1. 42*

    I wonder what she was so worried about job-wise, that made her think that bringing her child in with her rather than taking a day off to be with him was the better idea.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      That presupposes that she made the decision with any thought or consideration whatsoever, and isn’t behaving in a manner so thoughtless as to be pathological.

      1. Cat*

        I mean, nobody enjoys having a sick child with them at the office. It’s objectively the worst, as is hiding sick child. So I think it’s reasonable to assume she was worried about something even if she made the calculus very poorly.

        1. Covered in bees*

          Maybe she thought she could eventually first the child off on her assistant, as a former colleague used to. We had a generous sick leave policy, clearance to work from home as needed, and she worked 9-3. She literally dropped a kid deemed too sick for childcare in the lap of a junior colleague and walked away.

          I wouldn’t assume much about the person involved. Some people really are that awful.

            1. 42*

              Clarifying: Not ‘good lord, what a jerk your former colleague is’. Rather, ‘good lord’ that this is even being offered up as a scenario.

              1. Annonymouse*

                This is giving me flashbacks to that person who made the receptionist watch her kids in a back room.

                The parallels in behaviour are startling. Just that level of inconsideration for others and their own child is astounding.

                Also the way she has lost the respect and trust of her coworkers from her actions and really can’t get it back.

                The points that get me most are:

                1) child is banned from daycare because they are too contagious. So instead of keeping them home to minimise the spread of disease they bring them to their workplace where there are dozens of people. And their families.

                2) child was hidden in the office -indicating mum knew that having her child there was not ok.

                3) child was taken/wandered into common areas such as a conference room, bathroom and kitchen where a potluck was being held. You can bet mum did not sanitise those surfaces.

                4) mum did not inform her coworkers what she had exposed them to until called out by public health (!) even after her coworkers started showing symptoms and getting sick.

                5) And public health had to get involved (!)

                6) from the tone of this letter I am getting that mum hasn’t really apologised or even thinks she’s done anything wrong – as opposed to being mortified once she realised just how serious the virus is and that her actions caused a child to be hospitalised.

                She should face disciplinary action at the very least for violating the no children at work rule but also for endangering the health of so many people.

                I also think firing would not be unreasonable. She has shown such bad judgement and broken the trust so much that I’d question all her work in the future and her coworkers will never trust or respect her again.

                If she had shown remorse and realisation of the magnitude of her actions it would be different.

                1. MuseumChick*

                  Thank you for this. I remember that letter about the assistant watching kids in the back room and I would say that this letter is even worse. That’s why I’m leaning towards the “I would fire her” camp. I wrote about this down thread but I’ll put it here is well, her boss should make it clear that her job is on the line and make it clear that people have been hospitalized and could have died because of what she did, at a minimum I think this woman should be made to sincerely apologize individually to each person who was effected by this, she should be made to offer her sick days to those most effected (such as the person with a child in hospital now), she should be banned from having a child at work unless it is approved by her boss in advance with a doctors note stating the child is not sick, and she should be suspended without pay for a couple of weeks. If she were to balk at any of this I would start moving forward with firing.

                2. Allypopx*

                  Yes. I feel like firing should be on the table for exactly that reason, for the purpose of making sure she understands the magnitude of her actions. There are performance issues here, some of which you highlighted, and there were real consequences to what she did. If she doesn’t get that this is a big deal, someone needs to drive it home for her so she doesn’t show such egregious bad judgement in the future.

                  I would probably not fire this employee but I would have a serious sit down in which I explained that it was a fireable offense and she only gets one strike for this kind of thing. And I’d explain in detail the purpose of sick days.

                3. Renna*

                  Here here!

                  Unless I am mistaken, this woman doesn’t sound repentant at all. I don’t blame people for not wanting to speak to her, and if she seems downright flippant about it, I’d boot her out the door.

          2. Lemon*

            I was wondering what the appropriate punishment is for someone who does something like that, and then I saw your username. :)

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Or possibly she genuinely didn’t know how awful norovirus is and how contagious it is. I don’t think we need to label her pathological. People mess up without being sociopaths.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Maybe, but even if she was that ignorant, how could she let the kid into the potluck food? That’s what’s got me in a tizzy. I don’t care if it’s a cold or noro or Ebola, if you’re sick, you don’t get into shared food and drink.

          1. AMG*

            Exactly! She didn’t just bring s sick kid into work, she was negligent about it for letting the kid touch food, not disinfecting common areas, etc. (and how much work is she getting done while entertaining a PRESCHOOLER???)
            At least 2 people with compromised immune systems were exposed to this because of her. If my child were undergoing CHEMO and she exposed him/her, it would be everything I could do to be around her without incurring an assault charge, much less be civil.

            I strongly disagree with your advice, Alison. She needs to be fired. She was too reckless.

            1. Jessie the First (or second)*

              Yeah, I have an immune-compromised child at home – as in, we’d be in the hospital if he got this bug. Someone knowingly bringing it to work would have me seeing red. I get that some people are thoughtless and/or ignorant about viruses, but you’d have to be pretty extreme of both to let your sick kid wander over and touch shared food.

              1. Artemesia*

                I agree; this isn’t a kid with a cold or on the second day of antibiotics with strep throat — this is a kid with something that is highly contagious for about 2 weeks (although symptoms only last a day or two for most people, the virus is still being shed for two weeks which is why hand washing is so critical).

                The CEO’s executive assistant brought a child into our offices with chickenpox where there was a pregnant woman and an elderly woman working, neither of whom had had it. The CEO was out of town. I was not her supervisor but insisted she go home immediately as chicken pox is incredibly contagious through the air. What are people thinking who would inflict that on other people?

                1. Zombeyonce*

                  Even if people in normal health situations (read: not pregnant or elderly) got it, chicken pox can be incredibly dangerous for adults, even more than for children. I’m glad you told her to go home.

                2. Workin on my night cheese*

                  !!!

                  The lack of judgement from people really astounds me sometimes. And kudos to you for saying something!

            2. Fortitude Jones*

              I’m right there with you, AMG. As someone who is also immunocompromised with family members who are also in that position, somebody knowingly bringing their sick kid into my workplace and letting them touch all over everything, thus getting me sick and potentially getting my family sick, would piss me off. I too would want that person gone from the office.

            3. Jadelyn*

              I agree – she demonstrated a willful, reckless disregard and carelessness about her coworkers safety by bringing an extremely contagious illness to work, even though she had other options (like paid sick time she could’ve taken???). As a result, someone’s child had to be HOSPITALIZED. I honestly don’t see how in good conscience OP can keep that worker on their staff, especially considering the obvious damage it’s done to their effectiveness given that nobody will speak to them anymore.

              1. Sara M*

                I agree. Usually I’m with Alison, but I think she’s wrong here. I think this is cause for firing. Yes, a terrible mistake, but clearly shows awful judgment and disregard for company policies.

              2. Nancy Drew*

                I fully agree. This is a rare instance where I strongly disagree with AAM’s advice and think it’s way too lenient. This employee needs serious discipline up to and including firing. All of AAM’s advice here is geared toward the scenario where the responsible employee turns out to be rational and apologetic, and from the letter at all, I’m not getting the vibe that that’s on the table. The responsible employee already reportedly didn’t think this was a “big deal” AND didn’t speak up whatsoever once the outbreak started. She was only outed by an actual public health investigation that had to be initiated, which doesn’t sound like a routine matter. Nothing in the letter makes me think she now understands, or will understand, how serious her actions were.

                1. LeRainDrop*

                  I totally agree with you, Nancy Drew, Jadelyn, and others. The OP’s letter doesn’t give any indication of the responsible employee showing any remorse or reasonable awareness of the consequences of her actions. In my opinion, the employee should be fired.

            4. Jessesgirl72*

              Yes. I’m with you. She needs to be fired. She could have seriously killed both that child and the grandmother. She knowingly brought her contagious child to work- without permission!-let him get into public food, and didn’t even fess up until public health made her do so! There were very serious consequences to this for other people, even if it was just a “mistake” – one that should result in serious consequences for HER.

              1. Sharon*

                I agree with you 100%. If the child and the grandma had died, then what? It’s not at all acceptable to take such flippant risks with other people’s lives. I normally agree with Alison but in this case I feel it’s grounds for termination. Ignorance of the severity of Norovirus is no excuse.

              2. Ren*

                It sounds like the kid got out of her office and into the food without her realising (which lead to her being caught with a kid in the office). The thought of what else that kid could have gotten into (files, electrical equipment, machinery, onto the stairs and fallen) is a security/safety nightmare in itself. I’d want to check everything else in the vicinity of her office in case there’s other things that she hasn’t admitted to/noticed.

              3. Engineer Girl*

                This is the thing. She made a chain of thoughtless bad decisions, not just one.
                * She brought a knowingly contagious child in to work even though she had other options. The day care told her that this situation was so bad the child was temporarily banned. Why then is work OK?
                * She allowed her sick child to touch food.
                * She allowed her sick child to touch the fixtures
                * She didn’t admit the problem until she got caught. This is the most egregious in my book. Even though there were serious consequences, she didn’t take responsibility for what happened. And how could you ever trust her again?
                * I see no mention of her willingness to cover out of pocket expenses for the chemo child’s hospitalization.
                * I see no mention of her attempting to make apologies.

                2. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

                  This. I have a problem with her complete refusal to accept responsibility. I do know there are office cultures where admitting responsibility for something done wrong can be the kiss of death (these places are toxic, which probably goes without saying), but this is a big pet peeve of mine. OWN your [stuff]. Everyone has bad judgment sometimes … but you admit wrongdoing and do what you can to make amends.

                3. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

                  Having said that, I wouldn’t jump to termination. I would have a serious conversation with this employee and what my expectations are going forward – not just re: sick leave, but in general.

                4. ZenJen*

                  ALL OF THIS! And, if this was my coworker, not only would I be livid over the situation, I’d lose all respect for her. She used extremely bad judgment, and the situation got out of hand, and there should be consequences for her bad judgment.

                6. blushingflower*

                  to answer the first one, there are plenty of times when kids feel fine and are probably not going to get any adults sick but can’t go to daycare because it hasn’t been 24 hours since they last had symptoms. It’s possible she thought the daycare was being overcautious.

                  HOWEVER, this is what sick leave is for. If you have a sick child who cannot go to daycare, you take leave or you work from home. You don’t bring a sick kid to work where they can make everyone else sick and where they will also be bored and miserable.

                  I wouldn’t go for firing, but I would go for a serious discussion with her and also clarification of what is expected of people when they or their children are sick.

                7. Susan*

                  In addition to all of these points, she was already violating company policy for bringing the kid to work, regardless of whether the kid was sick. That alone should be cause for disciplinary action. We can debate about whether she understood the serious nature of norovirus (and I have a hard time believing she didn’t have some idea, if only because the daycare told her about the outbreak of norovirus and banned the kid because he was contagious), but it doesn’t really matter because she violated company policy.

                  I work in an industrial facility, and if I willfully violated a company policy and caused a release of a toxic chemical that made people sick, you better believe I would be in for some serious disciplinary action, and probably termination, even if I didn’t know at the time that what I was doing would make people sick.

                8. Stranger than fiction*

                  You forgot brought child to office without permission. She should be written up at least.

                9. college employee*

                  Yep. I agree. Everyone makes mistakes but her failure to take responsibility is a major character flaw. And, if I was one of her coworkers, I would never trust her again.

                  If the letter writer doesn’t want to fire her, the letter writer could have a meeting with her to discuss these bad decisions. Have her sign a document stating that she understands why these decisions were bad and that she will not repeat these decisions again and that she will take full responsibility for her mistakes. This document should also explain the consequences if she makes any of these mistakes again.

                  She should also be required to issue a written apology to her coworkers explaining that she now understands the gravity of her mistakes. While her coworkers may never trust her again, a written apology might go along way toward thawing relations between her coworkers and her.

              4. pnw*

                They should talk to her to find out why she brought the sick child in and then discipline her up to and including firing her. When my grandson was undergoing chemo he could have died from a virus like this.

                1. Artemesia*

                  The symptoms of this are ghastly and miserable. No one can honestly say they didn’t think it was a big deal. I remember the Thanksgiving when I was about 7 and living with my folks and brother in a 1000 square foot house with 26 people visiting one of whom brought a couple of barfing kids. Before that one was done, we had 26 violently ill people and one bathroom and we were sick for a couple of days after they left. This is contagious and people well exposed come down with it in a matter of hours and it isn’t pretty.

            5. Elizabeth H.*

              I agree, I find this pretty egregious. It’s not clear if people ever bring a child to work such as that it would be grounds for feedback regardless of whether he/she is sick – in some offices it isn’t a huge deal to have your kid in the office for a few hours but in a lot it would be.

            6. boop the first*

              Especially considering that you can’t really disinfect norovirus away. It’s so infectious and it seems to take less than 24 hours to incubate, so it seems like there’s no opportunity to get away from it. My husband told me of an outbreak at a weekend conference, and before the weekend was even over, every single person at the conference was already vomiting. Then he gave it to me, even though I wash my hands religiously. Noro stays home, it’s mandatory!

              1. Artemesia*

                Those alcohol gels don’t touch norovirus — only bleach does. Rigorous handwashing helps but the person with symptoms needs to be doing that to prevent it spreading on surfaces and no kids does that adequately and plenty of adults don’t either.

            7. Bonky*

              I agree. I strongly, strongly agree. If this was my office she’d have been fired, and I firmly believe that would have been the right thing to do.

              The wife of one of my colleagues gave birth twelve weeks early last year because someone brought norovirus into her office. Everybody there came down with it, but worst of all, the baby was in intensive care for months, because her heart and lungs were so immature when she was born. The person who knowingly came in while sick was fired. (I feel particularly strongly about this stuff at the moment – I am 29 weeks pregnant myself.)

              This woman’s actions have put at risk the lives of a kid having chemo and the residents of an old people’s home. Allowing her kid into the office – let alone the toilets and the food (dear god, the food) is beyond stupid, thoughtless and selfish. It’ll have been clear to her from the preschool’s instructions how dangerous this was.

              I get the strong impression from the email that she’s pretending that she did nothing wrong. That’s an indicator of the level of selfishness right there.

              1. Britt*

                Agree wholeheartedly here. I hadn’t even considered the danger to unborn children AND to anyone pregnant…I had walking pnemonia while pregnant and you cannot take *anything* in terms of medication. All of that would have been a cakewalk compared to catching the norovirus while pregnant

              2. VroomVroom*

                I’m currently 25 weeks pregnant. This whole thread – and given the fact that the VP of our region was out sick on Thursday and Friday… and is in today… and I needed his signature on a few things… – has me hand sanitizing like crazy. Literally just disinfected my entire work surface, and have probably washed my hands 8 times today already, and hand sanitized double that many times. Every time I leave my office, I hand sanitize as soon as I re-enter.

                Gah. I do NOT want to get this sickness :(

                3. Honeybee*

                  @Rex – You can’t use bleach on your skin. I mean, I’m sure that’s not what you are suggesting, but just to be clear. Also, VroomVroom didn’t say her VP had norovirus.

                  Also, the CDC says that alcohol-based hand sanitizers used in conjunction with (not instead of) hand-washing can indeed prevent the spread of norovirus.

                  The study that people cite for this doesn’t show that hand sanitizer is ineffective against norovirus. All it showed is that in care facilities where providers were more likely to use hand sanitizer than handwashing with soap and water for routine hand hygiene (translation: care providers were not washing their hands very often, and were relying on sanitizer – ew), norovirus outbreaks were more likely to happen. That means that hand sanitizer alone likely isn’t effective against norovirus, but combining it with hand-washing might be.

                4. VroomVroom*

                  @Rex Technically I hgave some Antibacterial Wet-Naps with aloe. I am also washing my hands like crazy – every time I go into our communal kitchen I get a paper towel, and use that to touch any surfaces. And then I was my hands with soap and water in the sink before I leave the kitchen – since I’m about to eat what I went in there to get. We have a communal fridge, but I keep my stuff in a lunchbox in the fridge anyway so others don’t touch my stuff.

                5. VroomVroom*

                  @Honeybee – I think there’s a good chance he had Norovirus considering it’s going around like crazy where I live right now. My sister was hospitalized with it 2 weeks ago and lost 8 pounds. Her husband got it too, but not bad enough to be hospitalized, but he was still pretty sick for 48 hours and lost 12 pounds.

                  So, my money’s on noro.

            8. eplawyer*

              As was discussed on the letter about the overly generous sick leave policy, not everyone knows what everyone’s home situation is. You are presuming the mother knew the other employee had a kid with chemo and another one had a parent in a retirement home. It is highly possible this was not general knowledge in the office.

              Quite frankly, this is probably more ignorance than not caring about anyone’s health.

              Let she who has never made a mistake weld the firing hammer.

              1. FOH Manager*

                Agreed. There’s nothing to say that the employee knew about the severity of the norovirus, or that a co-worker’s child is undergoing chemo.

                I wasn’t even aware of the affect it may have on pregnancy until I read a comment above.

              2. Kimberlee, Esq*

                The kid was sent home with norovirus. What parent hears “your kid has norovirus” and doesn’t Google “norovirus?” Norovirus is absolutely, positively nothing to f*ck with. It’s like if you knew you had contagious pneumonia and came to the office anyway. It’s beyond a mistake, it’s reckless endangerment (in I presume a non-legal but still very real sense).

                1. EmmaLou*

                  What parent hears “your kid has norovirus” and doesn’t Google “norovirus?” Probably quite a few. There are people who believe strongly in letting their kids get sick to build their immune system; that you can’t live in a bubble because someone is walking around with it; that we all have to ‘eat our pound of dirt’ in our lifetimes; that some/all vaccines are bad; and they don’t realize that some things are exceeeeeedingly more serious than others. So they wouldn’t look it up. They’d make a mistake. And once faced with it, because they’ve not lived through “(my loved one) has an immune compromised system and could die because of a stranger’s gambling”, they just don’t see the big deal that it is.

                2. Koko*

                  Also, “your kid can’t remain here at daycare because he has a contagious illness” should pretty logically extend to “your kid can’t be here at the office because he has a contagious illness.” He didn’t magically stop being contagious just by leaving the daycare facility, and her coworkers don’t have magically better immune systems than the daycare staff and clients.

                3. Lovemyjob...truly!!!*

                  @EmmaLou – it’s like you know some of the people at my kids school! My kids currently have 10 sick days each for this school year because people keep sending their sick kids to school where my kids catch it. My son, who has asthma, catches every single one of these and then passes it on to the rest of us. It’s awful! I refuse to be the person who sends the kids to school sick: first because it’s not right and second because my kids aren’t going to learn anything while they’re miserable.

                  I agree wholeheartedly that this woman should have been fired! If she’s not, then I think she’s going to be looking for a job soon because she’s officially the most hated person in her workplace right now.

                4. TootsNYC*

                  And even if you do google it, have you seen the CDC info?

                  You can become infected with norovirus by accidentally getting stool or vomit from infected people in your mouth. This usually happens by
                  • eating food or drinking liquids that are contaminated with norovirus,
                  • touching surfaces or objects contaminated with norovirus then putting your fingers in your mouth, or
                  • having contact with someone who is infected with norovirus (for example, caring for or sharing food or eating utensils with someone with norovirus illness).

                  Norovirus can spread quickly in closed places like daycare centers, nursing homes, schools, and cruise ships. Most norovirus outbreaks happen from November to April in the United States.

                  I can totally see that someone might think they’ll keep their kid away from other people enough to avoid these. It doesn’t say “airborne,” and I can see someone thinking that handwashing in the bathroom would be enough.

                  I’m not saying it’s right–no one should bring a sick kid into the office. But this info isn’t particularly alarmist.

                5. kb*

                  Because a lot of the reporting around norovirus recently has been related to dining establishments (Chipotle), some people incorrectly think it’s food poisoning and not contagious from person to person. Clearly this is incorrect, but it’s a reason a person would not Google it. Most people don’t double-check things they think they already know (which I’m not advocating for, it just is a common human tendency).

              3. ali*

                That’s exactly it. Whether or not she did or didn’t know doesn’t matter. I would be in the hospital myself if one of my coworkers brought norovirus in. Do they know that? No, because it shouldn’t be any of their business. The exact point is you DON’T know everyone else’s situation and that’s exactly why it needs to stay home. It is absolutely a complete disregard of every single other person in that office AND their families.

                1. Jeanne*

                  I would be in the hospital too. If you work with more than about 5 people, one of them has an illness or a sick kid or an elderly relative. She doesn’t have to know each person’s situation to know that.

              4. Jessesgirl72*

                If I made the kind of “mistake” that sent someone to the hospital and cost my company likely 10’s of thousands of dollars from lost work and an office’s worth of people out on sick leave, I would expect to be fired, and would not fault them for doing so. Because unlike the OP’s coworker, I take responsibility for my own mistakes.

                1. Jeanne*

                  Good point that wasn’t addressed. How much productivity was lost from sick days because of this illness? She literally cost the company serious money.

              5. Clumsy Clara*

                I agree with this. I think the AAM community is probably generally more conscious of appropriate workplace behaviors, being considerate of others, etc. so people are quickly jumping to “this is inexcusable she should be fired,” when really I think it is a case of severe thoughtlessness. Said thoughtlessness is obviously not OK since she did endanger people, but I am sure there are plenty of people faced with a sick toddler would not think “oh people i work with may be immunocompromised/have immunocompromised loved ones.” It’s unlikely that thought would’ve occurred to me if I didn’t read this blog.

                All in all, I agree with Allison’s advice.

              6. Observer*

                I agree on the not understanding the severity of norovirus being a mitigating factor. On the other hand, it’s no excuse that she didn’t know the specifics of people’s home situations. You see, simple common sense says that in any group of people there are going to be some who are either at some level of risk themselves or in regular contact with someone else who is at risk. How many offices have you been in where NO ONE has a young child, aged relative, sick relative or pregnant relative?

              7. Kat*

                Daycares and other schools actually have materials on the norovirus and if there is an outbreak they tell the parents and give them papers about the virus. So the fact that commenters are saying she wouldn’t know the dangers of the norovirus make no sense to me. This happened to my nephew at his daycare with the norovirus and foot and mouth and the employees not only explained it to parents, but gave them papers on what to do/what not to do. They also told them to call their doctors if they had questions/concerns about what to do.
                She most-likely knew the impact of the norovirus and brought her kid in anyway. Also, it doesn’t matter if she didn’t know about other family situations. You don’t knowingly bring a contagious virus on other people. You also don’t lie about it. That to me is a firing offense. What would have happened if the child with cancer died? Or who knows if it has made it worse for her in future? What else is she lying about or doing at work?

                I caught the norovirus once (from a nice restaurant in London) and it was awful. It was the worst experience and bringing in your child to work or school when they are that sick makes no sense to me (or even when they are getting over it). To me it is a lack of common sense or decency all together.

                1. VroomVroom*

                  The most-likely is kind of an irrelevant fact here. IF she didn’t know, she willingly ignored the information she was likely supplied (from daycare, from pediatrician, from google) regarding it. Which means even if she was still ignorant, she was WILLFULLY ignorant, which is equally bad as being fully aware of the ramifications and bringing the kid in anyway.

              9. Honeybee*

                Sure…but that’s why people should always assume that they have the potential to be around someone immunocompromised when it comes to highly contagious and potential dangerous pathogens. You can’t always know and people don’t always feel comfortable disclosing (especially for something stigmatized, like HIV).

            9. Tequila Mockingbird*

              I, too, think Allison was WAY too easy on this person. Being fired is the least of it. I think the OP should contact the CDC and local public health authorities, and look into having her criminally prosecuted. People could have died from her idiocy.

              1. Cat*

                This is just silly – nobody prosecutes people who come to work sick, and nor would they. There’d be zero resources left to do anything else.

                3. Honeybee*

                  @Tequila Mockingbird – There are relatively isolated incidences in which people have been prosecuted for negligence for not following public health edicts, but it’s relatively rare to prosecute people for simply being out in public sick. In the case you cited above, this was a person who had a particularly dangerous form of tuberculosis AND ignored treatment directions from an actual medical provider (not a day care center) repeatedly (he was given five opportunities to follow directives).

                  Moreover, I’m not even sure that this is the outcome we actually want in cases like these. Aside from the insidious socioeconomic patterns that are usually present in these cases (the county officials admitted most of the TB patients they have prosecuted in the last 30 years are drug users whose street drugs interfere with the TB drugs), jailing people is not going to prevent the spread of serious illness – putting people in an enclosed and likely overcrowded spaces with poor medical care is only likely to jumpstart the epidemic.

              2. paul*

                There’s a difference between stupidity and criminality. This is 99.9999% likely to *not* be criminal.

            10. Lauren*

              She was BANNED from daycare. That makes her VERY AWARE of how contagious this was. That kid with cancer could have died. Those elderly residents could have died – do we even know if any did as a result? This person didn’t think it was a big deal when talking to the health department????

              I would fire her if she isn’t showing any remorse, because OP is about to lose several people instead of just one over this carelessness. SHE KNEW. That is why she was hiding the kid. I would quit if that was my kid / relative that could have died over her disregard for other people’s welfare and I’d be watching my boss’ handling of the situation.

              Some people prob will think I am over-reacting, but my reaction DEPENDS on this employee’s reaction to the serious talk that Alison suggested to OP. If the employee continues to think its no big deal, your other employees will start quitting over something like this – because it looks like you took no action.

                1. Siberian*

                  Yup. My child was excluded for a “rash” that I pointed out was not a rash, but once they decided it was a rash, he could not return until a doctor saw it. It was keratosis pilaris (those white bumps a lot of people have all the time on the back of their arms). I worked for years on child care health and safety materials so I’m sympathetic to their position and the regulations, etc., but when this happens frequently it can have the effect of desensitizing people. Not excusing, just providing that context.

                2. aebhel*

                  Yeah, my kid’s daycare bans kids with colds. Which is reasonable (and I’m certainly not going to bring a miserably sick toddler into work with me even if it is just a cold), but it doesn’t necessarily follow that ‘daycare ban = deadly illness’.

                  I don’t think the employee should necessarily be fired, but she needs a serious talking-to. She was at minimum extremely irresponsible and dishonest.

                3. paul*

                  No joke. I had to get a doctor’s note that my kid had eczema or they were going to not let him go in with a “skin condition”. And they want 48 hours clear of any fever or puking. Which, I can understand, but even with decent PTO I can’t afford to take 2-3 days off anytime either kid spikes a small fever or hurls.

                4. Callie*

                  Yeah. And I’m not sure how a daycare could say “your child has norovirus”. I mean, teachers aren’t even allowed to “diagnose” things like ADHD, becasue we aren’t medical professionals. We definitely can’t diagnose illnesses. We *can* say “hey, your child is throwing up, please come get them from school.”

                6. Temperance*

                  @Callie: the Health Department could very easily identify an outbreak of norovirus. It’s not about diagnosing a kid (and IMO, it’s a very silly statement to compare dxing norovirus to dxing ADHD, which is mental/behavioral and not vomiting/pooping like mad), it’s about protecting everyone else.

                7. fposte*

                  @Temperance–it’s not that easy to identify, since they actually have to test stool, so I doubt a daycare is doing that on its own; it’s also not clear to me if public health was involved at the daycare stage. So this could also be just a big GI outbreak that daycare guessed was norovirus or used “norovirus” broadly for NLV and turned out to be right when public health tested it.

                8. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  Yeah—something being highly contagious isn’t the same thing as it being severe. Lots of low-grade medical issues are highly communicable and are unlikely to kill folks (e.g., lice).

                  Norovirus is particularly nasty, but I don’t think having your child “banned” is an indicator for (a) whether your kid has a medical issue at all, or (b) has a severe medical issue. It’s just a signal that whatever your kid has might be contagious, and the daycare is trying to mitigate risk to other kids by being overly cautious.

                  I’m not excusing coworker, but I think the “everyone knows norovirus is awful! she should have known when her kid was sent home!” line of reasoning is a little weaker than folks realize. Whatever she did after people were getting sick might be another matter, but I think the bringing your possibly sick kid to work for what you thought was a few hours might not be as egregious as it’s being described here.

              2. Teclatrans*

                Yeah, I am wondering if some folks don’t know that daycares are very rigid about attending with signs of illness. Your kid has a fever that breaks at 1pm on Sunday and is high-energy at 7am Monday? Stays home, because the rule is 24 hours after a fever breaks. Now, I know how germs work and realize that this is a good rule (and 24 hours post fever the kid may well be contagious), but so many people truly do not know about disease vectors and how contagion works.

            11. Dust Bunny*

              “Angry” doesn’t even BEGIN to describe how I would feel if somebody did this at my office. My mother, whom I see daily because I help her with housework, etc., is a transplant recipient and on immunosuppressants for life. She has ended up in the ER twice when she got illnesses that caused vomiting and/or diarrhea because a) dehydration and b) inability to take medications. She could literally lose her transplant and possibly die because of something like this.

              The fact that the daycare wouldn’t allow the kid back should have gotten the message through, never mind that who lets their kids touch all the food even if they’re healthy? If your kid is too sick to go to school/daycare, the message is that s/he is too sick to be out in public.

              1. Jeanne*

                I am transplant too. Two years ago a vomiting illness put me in the hospital for over two weeks, many procedures, a week in ICU, a month recovery. It was nasty. Keep your mom well!

            12. Ellen N.*

              I agree that she should be fired. If she didn’t know how dangerous bringing a child with norovirus was it was because she was knowingly disregarding the information. If her daycare insisted that she pick up the child immediately she should have understood that she shouldn’t expose others. Also, she hid the fact that she brought the sick child which indicates to me that she knew at least that she wasn’t supposed to.

            13. Ray*

              I agree, AMG.

              If I were this person’s co-worker I would be furious at her, and yeah, I’d never talk to her again unless I absolutely had to. But also frankly I would pretty mad at the company for not firing her. As if the actual consequences weren’t bad enough, someone could have died from her thoughtlessness – that is, if you choose to believe it was just thoughtlessness.

              Since her son’s daycare sent him home and would not let him return until he was no longer contagious, it’s unreasonable to believe her explanation that she thought it was no big deal, especially after her co-workers started getting sick. (And if she really did think it was no big deal – good lord, what terrible judgement that displays). I don’t see how any of her co-workers, especially the parent of the child receiving chemo could be expected to get over this.

            14. DMD*

              I was about to chime in. I think slightly stronger methods are in order. Not necessarily firing her, but some type of formal reprimand or discipline based on whatever policy the company has. A mere, “I hope you learned your lesson” talk just doesn’t cut it for me.

            15. turquoisecow*

              I think firing is a little overboard. Unless this woman is working in a medical-related position, she might understandably not realize that she’s putting immune-compromised people at risk. Lots of people don’t understand the gravity of health risks, but that’s hardly something that relates to her ability to get her job done.

            16. lokilaufeysanon*

              I agree with you that she need some to be fired. It’s outrageous that she had no idea how bad norovius was when she knew her kid’s daycare had an outbreak of it a d a thing she wasn’t allowed to bring him in when he himself got sick.

              And honestly, if I were the parents of the child undergoing chemotherapy that had to be hospitalised because of this woman’s actions, I would be talking to a lawyer.

              1. lokilaufeysanon*

                Wow! *and that (in the last sentence of my first paragraph).

                My iPad is on its lady legs, sorry.

            17. Annonymouse*

              I’m sorry Alison but I have to disagree.

              This person truly doesn’t get “it” or, at best, has shown such bad judgement that they have lost the trust of everyone in their department.

              I’ll outline all the decisions that could have been changed to ones that impacted people less.

              1) was asked to pick up child because they were “too contagious” to be at daycare. Instead of deciding to keep child at home and stopping the virus spreading they brought them to work exposing dozens of coworkers and their families.

              2) did not ask boss or anyone if it was ok to bring child in to office or if they could take sick day

              3) hid child in office – indicating they knew this was the wrong action to take.

              4) allowed contagious child into common areas – meeting room and kitchens (bathrooms too but it’s not reasonable to expect them to not use the bathroom)

              5) allowed sick child to touch potluck food.

              6) did not inform coworkers what sickness they had been exposed to.

              7) only confirmed it when Public Health got involved (!).

              8) Child was immediately pulled from daycare because they’re contagious but she didn’t think a few hours in the office “was a big deal.” This shows a disregard for the health of everyone in her office when it was clear that this was a big enough deal for her child to be sent home for two weeks.

              And the worst part (for me at least) is that this person has not shown any remorse, mortification (once realising how serious this is) or other indications that they’re sorry and being accountable.

              In my opinion this is a serious enough issue to be written up for or maybe even fired if they can’t get work back on track – much like the one that made the assistant watch her children.

          2. Christy*

            You can’t control kids every second. It sounds from the letter like the kid escaped from his mom’s office–not that the mom brought him out to the potluck. It still stinks, and I’d like to think that the mom would have said something (or, you know, kept him home) but a kid escaping a boring office makes a lot more sense than a mom knowingly taking her kid to the potluck.

            1. AMG*

              Or the bathroom?? or it’s a small child who is going to touch everything because that’s what kids do. You can reasonably expect–you should absolutely expect–your infected child to be Touching Stuff.

            2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              Distinction without a difference, IMO. Still reflects a level of bad judgment, because any parent knows that you can’t control kids every second, and that’s why they’re not to be brought to work.

            3. Kate*

              Except even after other people started getting sick with the exact same symptoms her kid had, she said nothing. I think she knew what she was up to when she brought him in.

              1. Bwooster*

                I’m guessing that when people started getting sick she was scared of getting fired.

                I think it’s fine to think she was exceptionally, negligently thoughtless without considering her a sociopath.

            4. Tuxedo Cat*

              I’m not sure it makes a significant difference. To me, both scenarios show poor judgment with one being somewhat more egregious.

            5. LoiraSafada*

              Sorry, but if you bring your kid into the office when it’s not allowed or encouraged, not watching that kid like a hawk is even more egregious.

            6. chomps*

              But the mom DID knowingly bring her kid to the office. If the kid weren’t there, this wouldn’t have happened.

              1. Marcela*

                Are we sure? She was exposed to novovirus anyway, and she herself could have spread it to her coworkers and families.

                1. VroomVroom*

                  Yea but she **has sick leave** so once she and her kid were exposed she should have stayed home.

                  No one faults anyone for an accidental exposure. Like if she got it from her kid and came in before she knew it was norovirus, but stayed home after she knew, the scenario would be different.

                  Like the VP of my company who was out last thursday/friday for being sick. He’s in today, but is in his office with the door closed except when absolutely necessary. He says it’s been 48 hours since he was symptomatic. But I’m still washing my hands like crazy.

                  If I did get sick, I’d probably be miffed and think I likely got it from him (I needed his signature on something today) but I wouldn’t fault him – because I am aware that he’s done everything possible to not be contagious, and I’m also taking precautions of hand-washing like crazy.

            7. Jesmlet*

              That’s not the only part of the issue though. She brought a contagious child into her office. Even if he sat in the office all day, he was bound to touch something and spread it around. Such a serious lack of judgment. It takes less than a minute to google norovirus and figure out it’s not something to screw around with.

            8. Rusty Shackelford*

              You can’t control kids every second.

              You can’t “control” them but you can absolutely confine them. There’s no reason you shouldn’t be able to keep a sick child corralled in your office. And if you can’t – because you have to leave your office frequently, or because he’s a Tasmanian devil who simply can’t be contained – then you should know it’s not going to work and you should never, ever bring him to your office.

            9. ali*

              And that’s yet another reason the kid shouldn’t have been in the office in the first place. If you can’t control the kid every second then the kid shouldn’t be there. Period.

            10. Elizabeth West*

              This is true, and if a healthy kid escaped and grabbed some cake, it wouldn’t be a big deal. But a sick child (especially one ill with an EXTREMELY contagious disease that is well known) should not have been there in the first place.

            11. Lovemyjob...truly!!!*

              “You can’t control kids every second.”
              This is exactly the reason why she should not have brought the child to work.

              And she said nothing to anyone when she realized her kid had left the office: “he came out of her office because there was a potluck and he saw the cake and the food on a table by the coffee maker. It was at this point that she was found out (for bringing him to work) and was asked to take him home.”
              This is the moment she should have said “OMG, I am so sorry. I should let you know that he was kept out of the daycare for possible norovirus. Please don’t eat this”

            12. ABizzle*

              ….the child couldn’t have escaped if she hadn’t brought a sick child into work so that point is pointless.

        2. Dan*

          I’m willing to cut the “offender” some slack. Quite frankly, I go YEARS between getting anything beyond the sniffles. The only reason I have ever even heard the word “norovirus” before is because I cruise from time to time, and that is the one systemic thing that happens on ships that makes news.

          I can also see how someone would think that children’s immune systems are weaker than adults, so what would shut down a daycare wouldn’t even make a blip in the office.

          Somebody made a bad judgement call, and doesn’t deserve the heat she’s getting here, UNLESS she knew what she was doing and didn’t care. But if she (and her kid) are generally healthy, it’s easy to see how someone acted out of ignorance.

          1. Leatherwings*

            +1
            A serious conversation in which she expresses embarrassment and remorse plus promises to never do it again is plenty.

            Obviously if she blows off the serious conversation, that’s a different story but there’s nothing here indicating that that would be the case.

            1. New Bee*

              I agree. Alison recommending a first step that’s not firing /= her saying firing isn’t a reasonable option. To me, it was implied that if the employee doesn’t show remorse more serious consequences would be warranted.

            2. MWKate*

              Agreed. Clearly, her actions show questionable judgement. The fact that she wasn’t forthright about what happened when people began getting sick is even worse IMO.

              However, I don’t think firing her right off the bat without a discussion and allowing her the opportunity to address it head on would be appropriate. If in the meeting she doesn’t understand that her actions endangered others, or doesn’t recognize the repercussions on the sick child or the grandparent that is another story. However, without that discussion you can’t know what her thought process was. I doubt it was “Yes, let me take my kid in and infect everyone.”

              Now – I’d be furious if I were a coworker. It would be really hard to look at this objectively if I were the one that got sick, or especially if my child were the one that ended up in the hospital.

          2. Jessesgirl72*

            There were serious consequences to people because of her “mistake” That warrants there being serious consequences for her. Not just a talking to!

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Speaking more broadly than just this situation, that’s a really punitive attitude that won’t normally make for good management. People sometimes do make work mistakes with serious consequences. If they’re an otherwise good employee, often a serious conversation is the appropriate response. If you get into a “serious consequence for us means serious consequences for you” mindset — a punishment mindset — you’re going down a weirdly punitive path that generally isn’t going to get you good long-term outcomes.

              1. FOH Manager*

                +100000!

                I really think a lot depends on the woman’s attitude once the seriousness of the consequences are made clear to her – LW an update when you’ve talked to her would be awesome.

                She may not have realised and may be genuinely horrified once everything has been laid out to her – I don’t think an immediate firing is the right thing here, and jumping to the worst possible punishment immediately is not a reasonable reaction IMO.

                Of course, if she did bring in her kid KNOWING the severity of the virus, and still doesn’t think it is a “big deal”, that’s different.

                2. SignalLost*

                  I can’t reply directly to Elizabeth West because of nesting, but there are two very different ways to frame that.

                  1) Oh gosh, I didn’t realize it was a big deal!
                  2) Who cares, kids get banned from daycare for every little thing, it’s no big deal.

                  We only have the OP’s experience of the situation to say whether it was 1 or 2. Certainly the fact she’s still saying it’s not a big deal (apparently) suggests that she’s operating with 2, but I can see where she was operating with 1 and it comes off as 2 in recounting. I don’t see doubling down on how it doesn’t matter as the winning strategy here, but if she’s got her back up because people are angry with her, she might. I’m also not trying to excuse her, but I think there’s degrees of unfair behaviour on both sides here. Hers is certainly more severe at this point, but it could have started as a mistake/misunderstanding of what norovirus is.

                3. Catalin*

                  @Elizabeth West and Signal Loss (but also the angry mob that seems to have formed here),
                  1) Suppose Public Health official roll up and ask you about something like this and you’re the culprit. What are YOU really going to say, “Well yes, Dr/Officer/Agent, I knew he’d probably get the whole office sick but I just didn’t give a damn.” Human nature is going to get 9 out of 10 of us to hedge our responses because of consequences.
                  2) It is possible that the culprit coworker could have spread the virus to a lesser extent without the child’s presence: it wouldn’t have been to the massive scale without little Robbie touching everything in sight, but people do carry viruses as secondary sources.

                  That said, there’s no excuse to bring a sick child to the office. Kids are germ factories and you may not realize that the woman you passed in the hall near the copier has a compromised immune system.

                4. FOH Manager*

                  I must have missed that she actually told public health it wasn’t a big deal – thought that was said to manager/coworkers.

                  I’m not saying that the end result shouldn’t be firing, but that shouldn’t be the first and only option, IMO.

                5. TootsNYC*

                  The OP said this:

                  “She told public health she didn’t think a few hours was a big deal.”
                  Didn’t–as in “when she made the decision to bring him in for a few hours.” That’s how I read that.

                  That’s a far cry from “still doesn’t think it is a “big deal”. ”

                  She thought he wouldn’t be able to get fecal matter in other people’s mouths in a span of a few hours.

              2. Lissa*

                Yeah, I totally agree! I think it should be less about the consequences of the mistake and more about the mistake itself. I do think this was really bad (and I’m one who thinks the attitude of “you got me sick” is a bit overblown in some cases) and she should be talked to, but I don’t see what good doing more would do.

                The woman’s attitude here is so important.

                1. Amy the Rev*

                  I agree- the consequences shouldn’t necessarily be a factor in the response to this situation

              3. Mike C.*

                And when those work mistakes seriously affect the health and safety of others those people get fired. Immediately. You don’t endanger your co-workers, that’s inexcusable.

                1. Kate*

                  Agreed. People were hospitalized because of her “mistake”. What if someone had died?

                  To me, as I mentioned above, the big blaring warning sign is the fact that people had symptoms exactly like her son’s and she stayed silent. And now that she has gotten caught, from what the LW doesn’t mention, she hasn’t even apologized, just made excuses for herself.

                  It isn’t just that she brought her son in with norovirus, it is all these things combined that makes me think she should be fired: the lying by omission, the lack of remorse, etc.

                3. Mike C.*

                  If there was a public investigation, there is likely going to be samples taken. From there, it’s a basic lab exercise to determine a rough order of infection. I used to see this done with food-borne illnesses all the time.

              4. EAB*

                She didn’t make a work mistake that had serious consequences for the employer. She made a mistake that cost her co-worker hundreds or thousands of dollars in hospital bills *out of the co-worker’s personal pocket*. Is her apology going to pay those bills?

                As a manager, I expect that employees will mess up sometimes and hurt the company. I’ve made those mistakes. But to me, there’s a big difference when your (avoidable and foreseeable) mistake has serious effects on co-workers’ health and finances. That’s worthy of some consequence, IMO.

                2. AMG*

                  She made a mistake that most likely cost her co-worker hundreds or thousands of dollars in hospital bills *out of the co-worker’s personal pocket*. Is her apology going to pay those bills?

                4. Artemesia*

                  If a child was hospitalized then that family is going to be out thousands. No American is hospitalized without it being very very expensive even with insurance.

                5. Chicken*

                  Artemisia, it’s just not true that hospitalization ALWAYS costs thousands out of pocket. My previous insurance had a copay of a flat $250 per hospital admission, no matter how long the stay was (it was very good insurance!). Also, a family with a child undergoing chemo is very likely hit their out of pocket maximum for the year, meaning that there are no copays and no costs for additional care.

                  (None of this is to say that it isn’t a serious situation, or that having a child hospitalized isn’t horrible and awful and terrifying. The situation is bad enough without inventing additional problems that may or may not exist!)

                6. TL -*

                  @Artemesia not necessarily. The kid is already on chemo and with the ACA and/or depending on what state they’re in, it’s quite likely they’ve hit their out-of-pocket max. It’s also possible their kid’s health costs are covered through a benefactor organization; my youngest brother had a back condition that was 100% covered by Shriner’s and had he broken his back, that would’ve been covered as well.

                  My insurance, IIRC, covers everything above maybe $10,000 out of pocket? That’s including deductibles, copays, coinsurances – there is a magic number where I have to pay $0 for anything for the rest of the year. (I hope I never hit that magic number.)

                7. Artemesia*

                  To those who think it won’t cost money — my daughter recently had a miscarriage and has ‘good insurance’ — they were out of pocket a thousand dollars. My husband had an ER night with tests and we were out 3 thousand with medicare and medigap insurance. Medical treatment in the US usually means big money.

                8. fposte*

                  @Artemesia–it’s all over the map, actually. My first spine surgery I was out $10k until I beat them down; my second a couple of years ago was covered 100%–I didn’t pay a dime. So it’s by no means automatic that it would be costly.

                9. Dot Warner*

                  Let’s not lose sight of the fact that even if the family didn’t have to pay a dime for the hospitalization, the child still could have died. And if the employee doesn’t care about that, then yes, firing her is the way to go. If you can’t get worked up about something that important, I don’t hold out much hope for you taking your day-to-day responsibilities seriously.

              5. Critter*

                Is it common for someone to be fired for something like this? I know it’s happened, since other coworkers have seen it happen, but it is something employers have the right to do?

              6. PlainJane*

                I think “otherwise good employee” is important here. She showed appallingly poor judgment, but if that’s an anomaly for her, I can see a serious talking-to–and I’d add a written reprimand to reinforce the seriousness. If she has demonstrated poor judgment in other instances or has other significant failings as an employee, then I’d be inclined to fire her.

              7. pnw*

                I think a lot of us are reacting to the idea that our loved ones could have died from her carelessness. The idea that my grandson could have died because this woman didn’t want to take a few hours off work horrifies me.

              8. ABizzle*

                Ummm sorry I know this is your job but you suck at it right now. She didn’t accidentally make a mistake…her actions were with purpose and she knew they were wrong. Your mindset is to hire people who don’t consider their coworkers and put themselves when they know they are endangering peoples health. It is wrong to keep someone working in an office who almost killed two peoples relatives and feels know remorse for it. She would be fired in a second if I were her manager and I manage 19 people right now and am getting another batch soon because I have done so well over the last 5 years. I would never force people to interact with someone whose actions (not careless actions but purposeful actions could have led to their love ones death. You are defending this woman way too much. Imagine if you were in those workers shoes for one second. If I almost killed people because of an action I committed on purpose I would be fired and I home she is too.

            2. JB (not in Houston)*

              We don’t yet know though that she was reckless rather than a mistake. We don’t know that she knew how bad a norovirus can be–I work with plenty of people who wouldn’t. Kids get sent home from daycares and schools with illnesses that adults would go to work with. We don’t know if she felt pressure from her boss or colleagues to get a project done and not miss work. I agree that she made a terrible decision, which should have consequences, if she knew how bad it was, didn’t have any reason she had to come in, but she did it anyway. But we don’t know that.

              1. KR*

                Honestly I didn’t know how bad norovirus can be until a few years ago when I became a supervisor at my old job, because it was one of the five big illnesses that we had to send people home with if they had any symptoms of. I could see how a clueless person who has never had a food service or customer service job might not know too.

                1. paul*

                  That seems like a *really* odd job duty for a manager (unless you were a nurse or something). I mean a lot of noro symptoms are pretty common to other illnesses too, how is a manager at a retail store/random office/whatever supposed to know?

                2. The Strand*

                  KR,

                  Out of curiosity, what are the other four illnesses that they were careful to send people home with?

              2. Jesmlet*

                It’s bad judgment not to look up what it is, bad judgment to not clear it with management before bringing him in, and bad judgment not to watch him once he was in the office. Layers upon layers of reckless decisions.

                1. Kimberlee, Esq*

                  Yeah, the part that gets me is not knowing how severe norovirus can be when you’ve been told your small child has it. And then bringing the kid to work without, apparently, looking into that at all…

                2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  When was she supposed to look it up? When she was called in the middle of the day to get her kid who, for all she knew, had food poisoning or a stomach bug? Or was it when she was trying to figure out what to do with her kid given that she was unaware that there was a company policy re: kids at work?

                  I feel like folks are assuming the absolute worst of coworker without putting personal experience into context. She didn’t make great choices. And there’s certainly a universe in which she could have just been a really horrible, selfish person. But there’s also a world in which she could be a frazzled mom who was just trying to get through that day and who didn’t realize her kid was sick with a serious communicable disease.

              3. PlainJane*

                I’d argue it’s very poor judgment and extreme selfishness to bring a sick child to work with you, even if the illness is just a cold. You don’t expose co-workers to your child’s illness. I’d be a little more forgiving if she had no paid leave–desperation leads to tough choices–but in this case, I have exactly no sympathy. I’m a working parent, and my child’s illnesses are mine to deal with. I don’t inflict them on my co-workers.

            3. Leatherwings*

              A serious conversation with your boss in which you’re told your judgement was seriously lacking and you put a bunch of people at risk is a consequence in most places. It’s an (AT LEAST implicit and likely explicit) warning that you need to be more thoughtful in your decision-making going-forward.

              I’ve had a few of those conversations with bosses before and it put the fear of god into me because I knew I had to step up and do better.

            4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              I can’t get behind this. We all do things during work that could have serious consequences for others. Even getting in a company car with a coworker and driving someplace is risky. And a lot of the time we undertake those activities with no malicious intent, let alone because we’re being selfish.

              The coworker’s prior knowledge of how serious this was matters a lot, imo. She may not have known her kid had norovirus at the time she brought the kid to work, and it’s also possible she had no idea how serious and contagious it is. If I got a call that my kid was puking and had to leave daycare, I would first assume they had food poisoning, and my second guess would be stomach flu. Norovirus would be so far down on my list that it wouldn’t even occur to me. Bringing her kid to work was not great, but it could also have been that she didn’t know/understand the policy re: kids.

              I think she made a lot of mistakes that had serious consequences, and that merits a frank conversation. But I don’t think it’s right to whip out the pitchforks and torches—even if there are serious and scary consequences stemming from the coworker’s actions—without knowing the full story from the coworker’s perspective.

              1. lokilaufeysanon*

                She knew. It was the reason he wasn’t allowed to go to daycare – because he had the symptoms and the daycare also had an outbreak of it. Plus, her assistant knew. There is no way that I believe this woman didn’t know, given the facts of the letter. She knew and she snuck him in anyway and a whole bunch of people got sick as a result – including a co-worker’s kid who wasn’t undergoing chemotherapy.

                2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  You don’t know that she knew. You’re inferring it because you think she’s evil. It’s possible for there to be a noro outbreak and for her child to be sick with something else. We also have no idea what the kid’s symptoms were. Was it a low-grade fever? Puking? Either one could be a sign of norovirus, or a sign of nothing serious at all.

                  I’m truly not being cavalier about this—I’m an immune-compromised person (who doesn’t “look” like it) who has extremely strong feelings about sick leave policies, public health, and the workplace. But I think there’s a rush to judgment because of what happened after this incident took place. What if there had been no kid going through chemotherapy? Would you feel equally outraged? What if what her kid brought was the flu—which is equally dangerous to a chemo patient and almost as contagious as noro? Would you be more forgiving if she had apologized or indicated that she made a mistake?

              2. The Strand*

                I agree with you, Princess. There are plenty of decent, loving, *ignorant* people out there who have no idea how serious this or that illness or practice is.

                So much hinges on what she knew and how she reacts to the stern discussion her supervisor needs to have with her.

                This situation reminds me of the tragedy involving ’40s movie star Gene Tierney, famous for “Laura” (a story that was actually adapted for the Agatha Christie novel, “The Mirror Crack’d”). Tierney was in the early stages of pregnancy and on a tour of military bases, when a young servicewoman who had (IIRC, symptom-free) German measles broke quarantine to see her. Tierney was exposed, and her child was born severely handicapped; she was devastated and had a nervous breakdown. The servicewoman had no idea she was threatening the life of Tierney’s unborn child. She did it out of ignorance.

                In the absence of drug addiction or a mental illness, I think most exposures like this are done out of ignorance and thoughtlessness.

          3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            I’m a biologist, so there’s that, but I really don’t understand how people can’t have heard the word norovirus and gathered some concept of what it is and how severe it is, just from reading news and being generally informed.

              1. JB (not in Houston)*

                Yes, exactly. I work with people are well-educated and try to keep up with the news, but some of them would not know because they don’t keep up with health news. A lot of people aren’t well-informed on health matters but believe that they are.

                1. Artemesia*

                  Well it is ‘stomach flu’ — much stomach flu is caused by the norovirus. But does anyone think ‘stomach flu’ is no big deal.

                2. fposte*

                  It is food poisoning, actually–to be more technical, it’s “food-borne illness,” and it’s the most common cause of it.

            2. Leatherwings*

              I didn’t really grasp until this post how serious it was. I do read the news, but health news isn’t something I follow particularly closely.

              1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

                Please don’t take this as a personal indictment or insult, but…..man, this is why we as citizens need a better grounding in health issues than health news. Health news isn’t reliable, quality basic health knowledge, and it’s written by journalists, not doctors. Given the quality of the health news, no wonder people have off-the-wall ideas about how to deal with sickness.

                Like I said, it’s all the exposure most people get to health education. I just wish there were better general health education.

                1. Leatherwings*

                  I mean… this is kind of personal. Personally calling out someone and implying they weren’t properly educated is not necessary.

                2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

                  I don’t see why you’re taking it personally. I think there’s several topics about which almost everyone isn’t properly educated, and that’s no slur on them, it’s an indictment of an education system that doesn’t prepare people with knowledge they need.

                4. fposte*

                  Though another scientific view would be that there are lots of things that can cause this kind of GI illness and I doubt that anybody ran an assay to determine the actual microorganism here, so it’s a little sloppy to pin it all on the rep of one virus.

            3. PK*

              Until I actually got it from a sick nephew a year or two ago, I had no reason to think it was any more serious than a stomach bug/flu. I also read the news pretty regularly so I don’t think it’s unheard of for some folks to not realize the seriousness of it.

              1. many bells down*

                I’d never had strep throat in my life until my kid came down with it in kindergarten. I had no idea how terrible that was either! I think it can go for a lot of illnesses; if you’ve never had it, you really don’t know how bad it can be.

                1. SignalLost*

                  For me it was a really bad sinus infection. I thought I was going to die from the pain in my face, and I spent a month in bed with pseudotumor cerebri once, which was also not fun. Sinus pain is the utter worst, imho.

                2. Observer*

                  And a LOT of people don’t have the faintest idea of how dangerous untreated strep can be. I’m talking about people who you REALLY would expect to know better too – to the point of not giving their kids antibiotics for it!

                3. many bells down*

                  @Observer – see, now that you say it, it’s obvious, but it also never occurred to me to consider that it would have complications if you didn’t treat it. Because I’d never had it except that one time.

                5. Observer*

                  Scarlet Fever is just one of the possible issues.

                  For instance, the Mayo Clinic has this to say: If untreated, strep throat can cause complications, such as kidney inflammation or rheumatic fever. Rheumatic fever can lead to painful and inflamed joints, a specific type of rash or heart valve damage.

              2. PlainJane*

                That’s understandable. What I can’t get past is that she knowingly brought her sick child to the office. Even if she thought the illness was minor, it’s so not OK to expose your co-workers to your child’s illness.

            4. edgwin*

              My spouse had it last year. I didn’t catch it. I didn’t realize it spread so easily. I thought it was just like a cold where some people get it and some don’t. I didn’t know that in most cases, if one person in a house gets it, then everyone in the house gets it, because it didn’t happen to my family that way.

              1. Temperance*

                I think most adults are generally better at confining their illnesses. When I had norovirus, my husband (thankfully) didn’t catch it.

                I cleaned up after myself, took many showers, and washed my clothes, towels, and bedding on the hottest setting. I also slept in our office/guest room rather than our room, and once I started throwing up, I stayed out of the kitchen and I clorox-wiped the bathroom door handles and toilet seat every time I used them. I wouldn’t expect my toddler niece and nephew to be able to do any of those things.

                1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

                  I had nonovirus at the beginning of the month (the stomach cramps were so bad I went to the doctor thinking my gall bladder was about to blow). I managed to not pass it along to my husband and adult daughter, but we followed near hospital-level sanitation and I basically quarantined myself in another part of the house until I was no longer contagious.

                2. Ann Cognito*

                  This is exactly what I did when I had it just over 10 years ago, when my son was a newborn. I was nursing him, but thank goodness he also accepted a bottle (his older sister point blank refused!), so my husband was able to keep the baby, himself and my daughter completely away from me. None of them caught it. I was really afraid, especially for my son!

            5. AnotherAlison*

              Have you ever watched the local news? Everything is reported as if it’s reached pandemic proportions. I’m not so sure the layperson can easily distinguish what are real day-to-day dangers to us, with the way things like Ebola and Zika are reported.

              I couldn’t tell you the first time I heard the word norovirus, but I’m sure it was when I was an adult with kids. Never in HS biology or health, or college biology. I think I had it in 6th grade, but it was called “the flu” back then. As for kids’ illnesses, if you have a kid in daycare, there’s always hand/foot/mouth or fifth disease or some other thing you’ve never heard of.

              We should all be more educated, but it’s not that easy just to pick up this info casually, imho.

              1. LoiraSafada*

                The town next to where my parents live had over 800 students get ill at one school this year. Not a lot of critical thinking required. Norovirus is in the news every. single. year. Adults don’t get a free pass for their ignorance, particularly when it can have devastating impacts on others.

                1. AnotherAlison*

                  Well, that’s fantastic information for the people in the news bubble where your parents live. Guess what, I don’t really watch my local news. I get ready without the TV on, then I leave. I don’t watch it at night either. I will typically scan the local news channel on the internet, but I’m not going to read a story that doesn’t affect me. If something like that was going around us, I’m sure I would hear about it from friends, family, or coworkers if I otherwise missed it, but why should I clutter my brain with information about what’s going on 100s of miles away from me? Unlike the employee, I do pay attention to notifications of illnesses at my kids’ schools, and I’m kind of a hypochondriac so I will google any symptoms anyone has, but I think saying something is on the news all the time so people should know doesn’t really consider how people take in information these days.

                2. Observer*

                  A LOT of things get a lot of airtime. And as others have mentioned a lot of things are treated like much bigger threats than they are. It’s the classic “boy who cried wolf” problem.

                3. LoiraSafada*

                  I live 2,500 miles away. I heard about it here. Hardly a “news bubble.” And, again, norovirus outbreaks are in the national news yearly.

              2. FileAllThings*

                This. You’re telling me your kid got sick with this specific virus and you didn’t Google it at any point? You didn’t Google to know more info, to know what to do, to know how long to expect it, to know if they’re contagious, especially when deciding to take him into work with you? That just seems like some common sense is missing.

                1. Elizabeth West*

                  I would expect a licensed daycare to know, even if the mum didn’t (assuming it was one). Wouldn’t they convey that information to her? They did tell her the child was temporarily banned. They should have some knowledge of the illness–did she disregard it? I would love to know what they told her.

                2. Karin*

                  And even if this was a parent who didn’t Google an illness, my child’s daycare gave us literature on various illnesses when they circulated around. I’m told other daycares in my area do the same thing.

                3. Observer*

                  Most of the people I know – and I’m talking about the educated ones – would not do this.

                  What’s really interesting is how many doctors actively discourage their patients from googling health information. The official line tends to be “You’ll just scare yourself” The actual thinking tends to be “You’re too stupid to tell the difference between sound information and junk” and “I don’t want you questioning my judgement.”

                4. SimonTheGreyWarden*

                  Depends though on if she was specifically told norovirus or just told “the flu.” (I mean, I assume from this story that she was told noro but the daycare on campus here just calls anything that little kids get sick with – from colds to actual influenza to viral things – ‘the flu’.

                5. Jean*

                  There are plenty of parents out there who don’t see the need to Google about viruses and illnesses, etc. They trust their doctor. And sometimes it can end up with severe consequences, like the death of a child. I’ve seen it happen.

                  Now, as far as this parent goes, it was a very bad decision to bring the child in, especially because the daycare, if at all reputable, would have given her info about the norovirus. I work at a private school and any time a student comes down with something contagious (other than just a cold), all parents receive an email with what the problem is, what the symptoms are, and what to do if your child catches it.

                6. TootsNYC*

                  Tell you what–go google “How is norovirus transmitted” and click on the CDC link. Read that, and tell me whether it sounds like everyone around you is going to get that disease from you.

                  It doesn’t, to me.

                7. TootsNYC*

                  I would expect a licensed daycare to know, even if the mum didn’t (assuming it was one). Wouldn’t they convey that information to her? They did tell her the child was temporarily banned. They should have some knowledge of the illness–did she disregard it? I would love to know what they told her.

                  If they’re like my daycare, they handed her a fact sheet like the ones they pass out for fifth disease, et al.

                  It’ll read a lot like the info from the CDC–it won’t sound all that hysterical.

                8. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  @ElizabethWest, you can’t really diagnose noro without a stool sample. I think most daycares are going to say “hey, your kid is puking, it could be x, y, z, but whatever it is, they can’t come back until they’ve stopped puking for 48 hours” (at least that’s been my experience). I have never seen a daycare diagnose a child unless they have a health professional on staff (RN, PA) or unless the issue is easily identifiable by non-professionals (e.g., lice). But I have seen them require medical clearance or a demonstration that your kid is no longer symptomatic before they can come back.

                  Based on the story, it sounds like she had to leave work to get her kid and came back to finish the workday. For all we know, she’d have taken her kid to the doctor the next day.

                  There are so many other, more common stomach/GI illnesses that I would assume a kid had before I think of noro. If my kid gets the flu, I’m not going to assume they have H1N1 without taking them to the doctor. Nor am I going to google the symptoms and try to diagnose them myself unless something seems very out of the ordinary.

            6. Anna*

              Literally had no idea how severe it was until I caught it. It’s not that unusual to not be entirely familiar with something if you’ve only ever heard it referred to on the news.

          4. AD*

            Well, glad it hasn’t been an issue for you but others may have different experiences.
            And if, as an adult colleague, someone knowingly comes into work with norovirus, that would be a “bad judgment call” that would get plenty of wrath in my organization and for good reason. As someone said earlier, whether it’s norovirus, mono, flu, or whatever there’s little excuse for an adult to be ignorant of the effects of viruses, sorry.

          5. paul*

            Yeah. I’m not exactly Mr. Live and Let Live but the attitude here among a lot of commentators is outright bloodthirsty. What on earth?

          7. turquoisecow*

            Agreed. I find it’s hard to believe that she willingly brought a sick child to work with the INTENTION of getting her coworkers or their loved ones sick. Seriously. I’ve gone to work while sick – lots of people have. If I had a kid who was generally feeling okay and I had no other options, I might bring him to work. Unless you work in the medical field, it’s a bit outrageous to think that she brought her sick kid to work with the intent of getting others sick, and it’s more believable to think that she simply didn’t realize the extent of the illness spreading – like to immune-compromised relatives. It’s also possible that she herself could have spread the virus even without bringing the kid into work.

          8. Annonymouse*

            But wouldn’t the child be vomiting and have diarrhoea?

            These are inconvenient enough that you should be at home instead of an office and obvious enough that this, to borrow from Ron Burgundy, “Is kind of a big deal.”

            These are signs of serious sickness and would point out (to me at least) that my child was infectious to everyone who would come into contact with them or stuff they touched – like sink taps, staplers, door handles or the conference table.

        3. Mike C.*

          You mean she’s never heard of norovirus, never heard of any cases of cruise ships full of sick people or couldn’t be bothered to use Google?

          Ignorance only goes so far, especially when so many get sick.

          1. Cat*

            I actually think the cruise ship stories reinforce the idea that it’s not a big deal. Yeah, everyone gets sick, but it’s always portrayed as a wacky traveling misadventure.

            1. Kate*

              When I have seen those stories, it is never portrayed that way. They always talk about how awful it is and how quickly it spreads. I mean, entire cruise ships with every man, woman, and child flat on their backs because they are so very sick? That is the way I have always seen it on the news, but I haven’t seen the news in the midwest or south, just west coast and east coast news.

              1. PK*

                I’ve always thought it was just a result of being stuck in tight quarters for a prolonged period honestly. It wouldn’t need to be norovirus for an outbreak in that situation.

                1. Mallory Janis Ian*

                  Yeah, I always thought that it spread quickly because of everyone being in tight quarters with nowhere else to go, and that it was basically a stomach bug that especially sucked because they were supposed to be having fun on a cruise, not stuck in the cabin vomiting and/or having diarrhea.

            3. Mike C.*

              Uh, what? Maybe from mean-spirited people on the internet but the reality is that it’s an absolutely terrible situation.

            4. Temperance*

              I do not agree with this. It’s always portrayed as a risk of cruising, but a disgusting nightmare. One of my friends was on the nightmare cruise a few years back that spent extra days at sea with overflowing toilets and norovirus … it’s not a cute wacky thing, it’s disgusting at best.

          2. KR*

            I check the news every day and I’ve never heard of these cruise ship stories. She made a big decision but I don’t think we can assume she knowingly spread this around.

              1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                I just don’t think this is a reasonable expectation. Most of us don’t have knowledge of medical disorders unless we actually experience them or unless they sound like really horrific pandemics (e.g., Zika, Ebola, swine flu, H1N1). I only heard about noro when I met people who went on cruises, and I honestly thought they were one of those awful things people get when they’re in a contained vessel with lax health standards that is crammed full of humans.

                It’s not “negligent” for a non-health-professional to be ignorant of the full range of awfulness that can come from different communicable diseases, even if it’s on the news (assuming one watches the news—I don’t, and I’ve never seen noro written about in a newspaper unless it’s a local news story involving more than 15 people).

            1. Leatherwings*

              I don’t understand what you don’t “buy.” I read the news everyday. I have three news tabs open right now. I probably even have run across those cruise ship stories. But this isn’t my field of expertise, it’s not something I deal with ever because I don’t work with the public or kids, so those stories didn’t stick in my mind.

              Yes, I’ve heard of norovirus. The cruise ship thing kind of rings a bell (likely from the news), but I still understand why a mom of a kid with a small fever might not realize how serious the virus really is. This isn’t difficult to “buy”

              And by not “buying it” you’re basically implying that the mother brought in a sick kid intentionally and just didn’t care, and that’s a huge stretch and assigns malfeasance where there is likely just a serious human blunder.

              1. Mike C.*

                Because it’s a trivial exercise to type the word “norovirus” into a search engine and find tons and ton of good medical and public health information aimed squarely at the lay audience! This isn’t one of those illnesses that wackjobs try making money off of, so she wouldn’t have to filter that crap out first.

                And surely, if you read the news on a regular basis, you know how to search for things on the internet.

                1. Leatherwings*

                  So we’re now villainizing an employee and calling for her to be fired because she didn’t research the illness on the internet?

                  I mean, c’mon. Yes she should’ve done it. I probably would have if I had a kid and she should get a talking to about it. But if we’re coming right down to it and saying that she should be fired for not googling something that’s way out of line.

                2. Mike C.*

                  No, she should be fired for putting her coworkers and families in danger and keeping information from public health officials. I’m not villainizing her.

                3. Cat*

                  What if she did and found the wikipedia entry that was quoted above and which says it’s mostly harmless and passes in a couple of days?

                5. Leatherwings*

                  But Mike, she didn’t do that intentionally. People screw up. She screwed up big time, but it was almost certainly an accident. You’re saying the accident could’ve been avoided if she’d googled it. The logical conclusion of that sentiment is that because she didn’t google something, she should be fired.

                  Even if that’s not the logical conclusion of what you’re stating, I think it’s extreme to fire someone for this as a first offense. We obviously just disagree on that.

                6. Mike C.*

                  No, she should be fired because she was told that her kid had a serious and highly infectious disease and decided to take her kid into work.

                  I’m saying that it could have been avoided if she had acted like a reasonable person would have acted.

                7. Amy the Rev*

                  Yeah, Cat, that was my thought as well. A quick Wikipedia search makes it sound like a pretty run-of-the-mill thing. Plus I think many of us have been conditioned to think ‘don’t google symptoms/illnesses because the internet makes everything seem worse than it is’. I also had no idea that there was such a thing as ‘immunocompromised’ (aside from folks who have to live in quarantine in a hospital like that boy on grey’s anatomy), until last year. So while I would *definitely* say that co-workers actions were thoughtless/careless, I’m not sure I’d go so far as to say negligent or a firing offense. Going into work with a cold could be dangerous for folks with immunocompromised family members, it would seem, and it’s hard to know when you’re no longer contagious with a cold, and often impractical to stay home from work for the full duration of your symptoms (since the residual sniffles can last a couple weeks). The fact that she knew her kid was likely contagious and brought them in anyway seems like the main offense here, not the type of illness it was.

                8. Creag an Tuire*

                  Y’know, I just googled “norovirus”, got the CDC’s pages on that, and my first casual browse didn’t make it sound any worse than every other little stomach bug and cold out there. “Usually passes in 1 to 3 days. Some risk to young children and older adults. Ensure hydration. Etc.”

                  I mean, I know better because I’ve had it, but no, its severity is not obvious from Just Googling.

                9. TL -*

                  Well, it’s talked about like that on the CDC/wiki/ect… because it is a disease that makes you miserable for a few days and then passes – unless you’re immunocompromised/an at-risk population.
                  It sounds like a miserable experience, but it *doesn’t* sound like it’s actually life-threatening for the majority of people who catch it.

                10. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  Mike, we actually don’t know that she was told her kid had a serious and highly infectious disease when she picked him up from daycare and brought him to the office. And it doesn’t sound like she kept bringing him in—the letter reads as though she brought him in the day daycare called her, but not thereafter.

                  All we know is that sometime between her kid coming in and others in the office becoming sick, it became clear the child had noro. You can’t punish people because they didn’t do what you would have done; we have to take into account the fact that many good, non-evil, non-selfish people could have easily done the same thing she did.

              2. Koko*

                I am not one who thinks she should have been immediately fired – but certainly a serious conversation that, “I am horrified by the decisions you made that led to this outcome and am very concerned about your judgment. I will be keeping a closer eye on you and there cannot be any more lapses in judgment like this,” and then reacting with greater consequences if she did anything like this again.

                But, since we don’t have a ton of info to go on in the letter, I would ask OP about the culture around sick days at her office. At my office nobody comes in sick…ever…even with a minor cold. We all have jobs we can do remotely, which makes it easier, but people will literally say, “I feel my throat becoming sore, I’m going to finish the day at home so I don’t get everyone sick.” We have a culture that tells people to work from home or take a sick day when you need it, no buts about it. Nobody is weighing whether their illness is “serious enough.” It’s an illness, period, and nobody else wants to get it, so the polite thing to do is keep your germs at home.

                I would ask OP, is there anything you can do to cultivate this kind of culture among your employee? More flexibility to work remotely when ill, more senior staff modeling appropriate behavior by staying home for a persistent cough? Ideally your employees never need to decide whether an illness is “serious enough” to be cautious. They will have the flexibility and confidence needed to simply practice good hygiene, which includes quarantining anyone with a contagious illness, period.

                1. Amy the Rev*

                  I think this is a great idea, Koko, and reminds me of the LW from a few days ago with the ‘holy grail’ of sick policies….if only more employers could get on board!

                2. AMG*

                  I assumed she was basing her comments on the facts as related by the OP. If she cared, she likely would have done something different.

              4. Artemesia*

                You have a kid with stomach flu who is barfing and having diarrhea — you KNOW what you are bringing to spread around the office. This isn’t the sniffles.

                1. fposte*

                  I’m not sure the kid was barfing and pooping in the office, though, especially if he was interested in the cake.

          4. edgwin*

            I thought the people on the cruise ships were getting sick from mass food poisoning. I think that’s what I thought norovirus was until very recently, some kind of food-borne bacteria.

            1. Artemesia*

              It can be contaminated food especially if you have sick or contagious workers handling the food. A worker who was sick last week is still able to shed the virus this week and if he doesn’t wash his hands after pooping very very well will be putting the germs in the tacos or the snacks or whatever. And anyone who comes aboard carrying the virus will transfer it to railings and other touchable surfaces. And then someone barfing in the elevator will create a virus aerosol that will infect people who breath that air. Virtually no one washes their hands well enough to keep from spreading it especially after their major symptoms have abated. My 9 mos old once picked it up on a flight (we assume as no one we knew had it and she got sick the night after the flight) She was sick for a few hours and was fine — everyone else got it one after another and were sick as cats. Then completely well we visited my brother’s family in another town and managed to infect them presumably the 6 year old didn’t practice sufficiently good hygiene and gave it to his cousins. We thought we were well and therefore not contagious. It is mostly hand mouth but kitchen workers can spread it through the food as well. And if water tanks get contaminated then that is another source.

        4. kimberly*

          My problem is I can’t see someone that is so ignorant that they don’t know how awful and contagious norovirus is, that can be competent at their work.

          She needs to have this spelled out to her. The fact she could have caused the deaths of 2 people and did make their families run up huge medical bills (assuming they are in the US even with insurance for the child and insurance/medicare for the grandmother you know they had huge bills to pay). I have immune compromised people in my life a transplant patient, and a child with cancer. A coworker/student comes down with something like Rotovirus I can stay away for the incubation period.

          She should have reacted like one of the parents at my school. Her grade school kid had a temp just over 100, a mild rash, and that sick kid out of sorts attitude. She sent her other 3 kids to school. She took one to the doctor. He was diagnosed with one of those no problem for most kids viruses that run its course in a week, but huge deal for pregnant women and those who are immunosuppressed. Knowing that her sick kid and another child had teachers who were pregnant, and a 3rd child had a classmate who was getting chemo, she called the school and told them to get her kids to the nurse’s office until she got there. When she got there, the nurse brought them and the check out paperwork out so she didn’t have to drag a sick kid inside (90+ Houston heat/not safe neighborhood).

          The school had the classrooms of that family’s kids and common areas cleaned and scrubbed down. The child receiving chemo got homebound instruction for a couple of weeks on their doctors orders. The school sent home a letter about the virus, making a point of praising the parents (without naming them) for their quick response. Fortunately no-one else caught the virus. The babies were born healthy and the other student is in remission.

          The Mom was apologizing to everyone and she took action as soon as she knew. Later she told me she was furious at her SIL. Turns out a week before the kids had been with their cousins and the SIL knew one of her kids had the virus. She thought it was nothing because no one in the family was expecting. Other people in the general public weren’t even on her radar.

          1. Natalie*

            “My problem is I can’t see someone that is so ignorant that they don’t know how awful and contagious norovirus is, that can be competent at their work. ”

            Seriously? Unless the OP works in medicine or public health, these two things aren’t even a little bit related.

            There’s an awful lot of things in the world to know.

          2. Observer*

            Do you know why the school sent out a letter praising this mother? Because her reaction was so incredibly unusual.

          3. SimonTheGreyWarden*

            For real? My dad is a good guy, a good manager, very competent at his work…I am 20 weeks pregnant with my first…I visited my folks this weekend and my dad didn’t mention until I had been at their house a while that noro was going around his workplace and that he’d washed his hands and wouldn’t give me a kiss when I left. I mean, if I had known ahead of time, i probably would not have gone to visit at that time. My dad’s not incompetent; he just never gets sick.

          4. aebhel*

            My problem is I can’t see someone that is so ignorant that they don’t know how awful and contagious norovirus is, that can be competent at their work.

            Unless she’s in public health, it presumably has nothing to do with her work. This seems like a really bizarre overreaction.

            1. Anna*

              Seriously. I wonder how many people who don’t work directly with WIOA on this board can give me a detailed breakdown of what it does and name more than one program it touches.

              Probably not a whole lot. Because it has literally nothing to do with their work or interests. But it’s an important piece of legislation. I guess if you don’t know about it, you’re just ignorant.

              1. Emi.*

                I like to consider myself a reasonably educated lady, and I’ve never heard of WIOA until now, so there’s that. :)

            2. Jeanne*

              That is an overreaction. But to me it seems like she could have opened her phone and typed norovirus.

              1. Anna*

                As several people have posted already, even when you do search for norovirus, the information provided does not indicate it’s as horrible as it actually is. And I suspect some of the people here don’t actually know from experience how uncomfortable it can be, they’re just assuming it is. I had no clue what the symptoms were until I actually got it and found out that about 200 other people at the thing I went to had it and there was a Public Health Department inquiry. If not for that I would have never guessed I had norovirus.

              2. Rater Z*

                I wouldn’t be able to open up my phone and type norovirus because all I have is a simple Tracfone without internet connection. However, I have heard about it and know it’s something not to play around with. I’m on the internet at home reading the news.
                I work in a convenience store and my boss is upset because people are calling off sick — one of them is on her third round of antibiotics. I wound up in ER in December because I was complaining that I was feeling real tired and coughing bad. (They used to have a prompt-care unit as well, but they had stopped it.) It was diagnosed as acute bronchitis and, for the insurance, it was coded as potentially life-threatening but they didn’t tell me not to go to work. I should have called off a couple of weeks ago when my heart rate was 150 but didn’t. When I told her afterwards, she wasn’t concerned. Just said she gets that as well — I don’t believe it.

          5. Artemesia*

            If it was rubella then she could have destroyed the life of a future child of a pregnant woman she passed in the store; that stuff is contagious not just communicable like norovirus. i.e. through the air not just by touch.

          6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            I would really recommend greater sympathy, then. I know a lot of competent, non-negligent, non-ignorant people who do not know noro, strep, whooping cough, etc., are awful and can kill people, particularly babies, the elderly and the immune-compromised. Just because you’re aware of the disease, or your community/friend group is aware of it, does not mean that you’re the norm.

            I work in a region where you can get a life-long, TB-style fungal infection that presents like bronchitis or even pneumonia. It’s widespread here and in Arizona, and nowhere else in the country. I would never be upset at someone for being “ignorant” that this super common, easy-to-inhale spore that presents like a chest cold can ultimately kill you. Absent a showing that this woman was actively behaving like a sociopath, some level of sympathy is in order.

              1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                Amen. It’s actually not that scary if you catch it early, but the problem is that most local doctors won’t screen for it until you’ve had it for at least a month or more, at which point treatment is much less effective. It also kind of ruins the outdoors when you know that you might be breathing in aerated soil with fungal spores that will wreck your lungs.

          7. Old Biddy*

            I wish everyone was as careful and knowledgeable as your friend. I caught chickenpox at the age of 30 because one of my coworkers’ kids had it. I sat in a meeting with coworker for a hour or two and ended up catching it. People really don’t realize how contagious it is. The worst part was this was a year or two after the vaccine became available, and I had made an appointment for a physical and was going to ask for it then. Sadly, I caught it a week before the appointment. I still have a grudge against that coworker (he was a slacker and a jerk so that didn’t help)

    2. Emotionally Neutral Grad*

      In some offices, she *would* be penalized for having a sick child and taking that time off, whether directly or paying a sort of “mommy tax” on her career development. People who learn maladaptive behaviors from toxic environments have trouble shaking them when escape finally happens.

      1. Bee Eye LL*

        Agreed! I came here looking for someone to make this post. I used to work with a guy who’d sit there sniffing and snorting all day at his desk while bragging “I’ve never taken a sick day in my life.” Some work places won’t even let you take a sick day until you’ve been there six months or a year. It’s crazy.

        1. boop the first*

          This is so true, but there is a huge difference between having a cold and having norovirus. I often never call out sick with a cold, even though I work with food, not just because of a lack of sick leave, but also because of all the guilt tripping from management and sometimes just plain not being “allowed” to leave work. But norovirus?? It’s so short and SO debilitating that there was no question, I did not leave the house. Just say “horribly contagious intestinal explosion” and no one at work will side-eye you, hahaha.

          1. Amber T*

            “No one ever questions explosive diarrhea” – my favorite Chelsea Handler advice.

            The other issue is – what’s the sick leave policy for an employee’s child? In my office, I have unlimited sick leave if I’m sick. Now, I’m childless, so I don’t know the policy 100%, but I know at least one coworker who took a half vacation day when she had to pick her kid up sick from school, but another emailed in using a sick day when her child stayed home from school sick.

            The norovirus sucks. It absolutely does. It spread around to half my office about three years ago, and it was 72 hours of pure awfulness, followed by at least a week of blargh. And I 100% agree she used very poor judgement here. But given all the facts we know (and lack thereof), I don’t think she deserves all the hate she’s getting here.

            1. Observer*

              This can be a real problem – in many places you cannot take sick leave to take care of a sick child. NYC recently made that policy illegal. Now, if a company has more that 15 employees, they need to provide up to 3 sick days and they need to allow the time to be used for caring for a sick child.

        2. Sprinkled with Snark*

          This is absolutely true. I once worked for a public children’s garden, where customers PAID to tour the grounds. It had the worst time-off policy ever. You had to work there one full year before you could get any vacation what-so-ever, then you would earn one week for every year you were there, meaning you might have to work from 12-24 months before you could get a week off. There was NO sick time at all, so if you were sick, you had to take a vacation day. In December, I had worked there about 5 months when they had a “Christmas event” at the garden in the pouring, freezing rain. No visitors came, at all, and yet we had to keep the place open and EVERYONE was sick for weeks, coughing, sneezing, fever, chills, and everyone just kept coming to work every day, coughing all over the butterfly house, sneezing all over the picnic facilities, coughing all over the arts and crafts supplies. I actually came to work (I was a children’s group educator) and kept excusing myself from class to puke in the bathroom. My employer knew I was sick too and wouldn’t let me go home. When it comes to health, some people (like my old employer) are just THAT stupid, thinking people should be able to just work through any illness.

          But this wasn’t the case here. She had a generous sick day policy, and most of us know just how dangerous spreading illness around a closed up facility can be. I DO think she should be fired, or at the very least given a strict warning that a second mistake would lead to her immediate dismissal. She can no longer use the excuse that she “didn’t know” any longer.

      2. Jadelyn*

        Which is understandable, but…it was still willful disregard for her coworkers’ health and safety. The fact that she didn’t say anything to anyone about doing it and was “found out” when the kiddo escaped her office strongly implies to me that she knew she shouldn’t have been doing what she was doing, making it not just ignorance but specific and willful misbehavior. So I sympathize, I’m still unlearning things from toxic workplaces I’ve been at in the past, but she got someone’s kid hospitalized. There’s only so much slack I’m willing to cut her for that.

        1. JB (not in Houston)*

          We don’t know that it was willful disregard, though, because we don’t know from the letter what she knew.

          1. Jadelyn*

            “After public health spoke to the person who brought her sick child to work when they were investigating the outbreak in our office, she admitted to knowing his daycare had a norovirus outbreak and still bringing her sick child to the office. She did not speak up when others started getting sick, even though they had all the same symptoms as her son.”

            It absolutely was willful. She admitted to the public health investigator that she knew it was noro and yet she brought kiddo to work and didn’t speak up even when other people started getting sick.

            1. JB (not in Houston)*

              No. We don’t know that she knew what that meant or its implications. You can say she was negligent, but we don’t know that she knew the risks and willfully disregarded them.

        2. fposte*

          I think willful disregard is really strong–unless you’re willing to admit to willful disregard for people’s safety if you ever go to the drug store when you’re sick with anything (or have ever talked on the phone while driving, for that matter). As noted below, there are people for whom catching a cold could be fatal–are you willfully disregarding their safety if you leave your house when you have a cold?

          What she did was super-stupid, but it’s on a spectrum with you going to the drugstore when you have a cold; it’s more dramatic here because we know the linkage with the consequences and the health department rap on this particular virus (I’m assuming this is actual diagnosed norovirus, since there are other GI viruses, including a group whose official name at least one point was “Norwalk-like viruses,” that can be pretty exciting), whereas if anybody dies after catching our cold we may never know.

          2. LoiraSafada*

            Nice false equivalence. SICK PEOPLE ARE EXPECTED TO GO TO THE PHARMACY. Adults are not expected to bring their sick children into the office, particularly when it’s not allowed.

            Also, they have drive-through pharmacies for a reason. Try again.

            2. fposte*

              If your drive-through pharmacy will sell you OTC cold medicine, it’s a lot more obliging than any around here. (And if you think drive-throughs were instituted because of health concerns, you have a touching faith in the good intentions of capitalism.)

              My point is that you, yes you, almost certainly every one of you and of course including me, have knowingly exposed other people to health and safety risks. And you have decided that’s okay, usually because you perceive the risk as slight and your behavior as necessary. But our perceptions of risk documentably suck and are documentably self-serving. So while the difference here may be one of a significant degree, it’s not one where you don’t engage in willful disregard of other people’s safety–we all do it.

              2. Elizabeth H.*

                I feel somewhere in the middle. Anyone who works at a pharmacy is aware who comes in to the pharmacy and that a lot of them are contagious. It’s like working in a kindergarten or at an airport or as the receptionist for a pediatrician’s office. Probably we should all be washing our hands more often, but it’s reasonable that we perceive greater or fewer risks in different situations and behave correspondingly.

                1. Amy the Rev*

                  Pharmacy workers, yes, but other customers going into the pharmacies aren’t necessarily thinking about how many sick people have touched that door handle or that self-checkout screen or that same bottle of brand-name medicine before putting it back to choose the generic brand….I’ve definitely gone into the pharmacy with the flu, without realizing it was the flu (it was early so symptoms hadn’t ramped all the way up yet, which also means I was likely very contagious then). What if some other customer was checking out for a prescription for their immunocompromised kid? I agree with fposte, we all make these snap judgements that may put others at risk but don’t quite fall into the category of willful ignorance/negligence…

                2. Elizabeth H.*

                  @Amy the Rev, the pharmacy worker is there all the time so has a much better chance of catching something that walks through the door a couple times a month than does a customer who walks in there once a month.
                  But in general I think that people who are sensitive to these sorts of things (the parent with immunocompromised kid) would be conscious of this. To me it seems pretty straightforward that you try to avoid touching your face after you have been in CVS, before you wash or sanitize your hands. We expect certain environments to *regularly* be exposed to higher level of infections illnesses and that we have a lower frequency of them in others.

              3. AD*

                That’s not really the same thing, and lets the employee off lightly.

                She was told her child was banned from daycare because he was exhibiting signs of norovirus. That she didn’t take the trouble to do a quick google search (if she really was clueless on what norovirus is) is entirely on her. It’s not something “we all do”.

                1. fposte*

                  I get that we’re a pretty high-information community around here, but I’m willing to believe that even here there are people who don’t Google what their daycare tells them about their kid. (And even if they do, good luck in figuring out whether you’ve found a reliable resource.)

                  I’m not so much interested in letting the employee off lightly as incriminating the rest of us. If we’re going with this Manichaean good/evil approach that seems to be popular in the comments today, we can’t position ourselves on the good side if we’ve gone out into the public symptomatic with anything–or with our kids symptomatic about anything–either.

                2. Elizabeth H.*

                  fposte, I agree with you in principle but I think that people are most upset about the employee’s purportedly blase attitude and that is what is causing such a strong reaction in many commenters, even if it’s being expressed here mostly in terms of “how could you be so uninformed, obviously norovirus is an *extreme* thing, etc.” I think that this is a more reasonable attitude than you are painting it. I feel that a lot of people can probably relate to being unaware of something and not having realized that they acted thoughtlessly, but are not sympathetic to making an uninformed mistake that you then learn has serious consequences and then continuing to act like you feel like it’s not a big deal.

                  It might be off base to focus so much on the lack of awareness or carelessness re. contagion as the main problem, given that most of us are guilty of these things in some regards, but it’s an easily identifiable target in this chain of events.

                3. fposte*

                  @Elizabeth H–I agree with your summation and many of your opinions today. But I also think if we’re considering the psychology behind what people are saying it’s worth doing that with the employee, too, and that people’s portrayals are getting rather reductive. And while we’re obviously not managers in this situation, decisions about what to do would need to be based on broad understanding of the employee and not just people’s reactions to her.

                4. AD*

                  @fposte
                  Reductive might be the case in some reactions, but in others there’s some downplaying going on for sure. The employee, at best, can be objectively assessed as having poor judgment in the sum of her actions. Not sure any deeper psychology is necessary or warranted, though as her manager this one instance would need to weighed against her overall performance and other factors.

                5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  The problem is you’re mad for how she behaved later. We don’t know what she knew on the day she picked up her kid. And we also don’t know if the daycare told her he had “signs of norovirus.” All we know is he was sick, and it was later confirmed to be noro.

                  I don’t know why she didn’t say anything when others became sick. Maybe she was terrified that she’d lose her job if she said something. Maybe she was already worried because she’d been chastised for bringing her kid in. Maybe she thought they caught this super-catchable disease from someone else. Maybe, when she said she didn’t realize it was a big deal, it’s because she genuinely did not realize that her child had a “big deal” virus on the day she brought him in, or maybe she was not told afterward that noro is a really BFD. It could be that she’s being blase, or she could have been sincere and gobsmacked.

                  What she did was not great. But without knowing more about what she knew, when she knew it, etc., what she did is not inherently as sinister as folks are making it out to be.

              4. Triangle Pose*

                I think this a great point. I think many commenters here who are calling for her to be fired immediately are very upset that she has not been outwardly remorseful and letting that fact magnify the blame assigned to her for endangering others with her thoughtless actions. We all endanger others at times for our own benefit/convenience. In this instance the direct consequences are known and devastating but that doesn’t make her more responsible for those consequences than each of us when we take the risk of venturing out in the world and brushing up against immunocompromised folks.

                1. fposte*

                  Yeah, from a human dynamics standpoint the problem isn’t so much that her sick kid was in the office, it’s that she hasn’t acknowledged how bad the consequences of this have been for people. If I were her manager, I would have been very firm about her addressing this; I don’t care if she’s sincere or not, I just need this to happen for her to keep working with people.

                2. Jeanne*

                  I can see your point of view. But for me part of the firable offense is bringing your child to work when you know you’re not allowed to bring your child to work. You don’t break a rule like that. Sick or not, I would have been unhappy as a manager. Most of us wouldn’t break a rule like that.

                3. Triangle Pose*

                  Jeanne,

                  I see your point of view. When you say “part of the dfireable offense” do you mean bringing in her kid and hiding it alone would be enough to fire her? For me that would be a serious discussion but not immediately fireable.

                4. Jeanne*

                  I mean it’s a big factor in deciding whether to fire her. Since we don’t know the company, we don’t know how dangerous it was (safety, chemicals, etc). If you know the rule is no kids but you sneak him in and try to hide him in your office, I am not going to feel you are trustworthy. That’s not an innocent mistake anyone could make.

                5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  @Jeanne, it sounds like she didn’t know that was the policy. And there are lots of workplaces, including my own, where bringing your kid in is not a big deal, let alone a firable offense.

                  @TrianglePose, I think this is really the core issue. There’s all these studies that show that when a doctor screws up, often an apology can prevent a malpractice lawsuit. Similarly, I think this woman’s coworker’s are upset because she hasn’t expressed the kind of remorse they want to see. For all we know, she feels terrible but is keeping her head down because she had no idea how severe this would be and she feels unfairly blamed. Or maybe she really is blase/minimizing and not taking accountability for what happened.

                  But at a minimum, an apology/acknowledgment would go an awful long way.

          3. Jadelyn*

            I will just reiterate that she KNEW WHAT SHE WAS DOING. She told the public health investigator that she knew it was norovirus, she brought her kid to work anyway, and chose not to speak up even when other people started getting sick. That, to me, is what moves it from “super stupid” to “willful disregard for others”.

            And norovirus, while it may technically be on a “spectrum” with having a cold, is so far on the other end of said spectrum as to be out of visual range when you’re trying to see it from the “leaving the house when you have a cold” part of the spectrum.

            1. fposte*

              Right, but if you have a cold and go out or go to work you know what you’re doing too, right? So how are you differentiating somebody immunocompromised who gets a cold from you and ends up hospitalized from somebody whose immunocompromised who gets norovirus from the OP’s situation and ends up hospitalized? Are you saying that the immunocompromised people who catch colds from you shouldn’t be out if they’re that fragile, or that if you don’t know about that consequence the possibility doesn’t bother you, or that some viruses it’s okay to be out with?

              I’m not actually arguing for deviation from public health guidelines, but people seem to be pretty readily exculpating themselves when they’ve likely made similarly self-focused decisions, just without encountering consequences.

                2. fposte*

                  Of course it’s applicable. Where do you think all the old people who die of pneumonia get their respiratory viruses? From the likes of you and me.

                  I get that you wouldn’t do what the employee did, and neither would I. But the difference isn’t that she was willing to put people at risk for her own convenience, because so are the rest of us.

                3. AD*

                  I guess we all have different approaches to health and hygiene, and the like. If I had a kid who was banned from daycare (regardless of how meaningful or not that is) you can bet I wouldn’t take them into work. And if I took them into work, and people got really sick, my reaction wouldn’t be “Oh we all get sick and old/immunocompromised people are susceptible to many minor bugs, so I have no active role to play in the sickness of several people who came into direct contact with my ill child”. That’s a leap I would not make, but I guess some would so let’s move on.

              2. Vin Packer*

                Yeah, this. Should people also be fired for not vaccinating their children? Someone close to me is immunocompromised and was on high alert when whooping cough went around again….

                2. OP#2*

                  @Mike C, there are many reasons folks don’t vaccinate their children, some of which being that they actually cannot, for health reasons. It is for this that we need all the other parents to vaccinate their children, so that the unvaccinated (and the ~17% for whom the vaccine proves ineffective) will be protected by herd immunity. The act of not vaccinating your child doesn’t inherently mean child abuse. Some children, for medical reasons, actually cannot be subjected to certain vaccinations.

              3. PlainJane*

                It’s one thing to go out with a cold. It’s another to bring your sick child to work (even if it’s just a cold). That’s what makes this so egregious to me. She had paid sick time available but chose to sneak her sick child into the office instead of staying home. Most of us working folks get exposed to enough germs from our co-workers. We don’t need their children coming in sick too.

            2. Triangle Pose*

              It’s very possible she did not know how serious the norovirus was. Despite being an informed group, many commenters here have said that they don’t watch local news or follow health news closely enough to know how contagious and serious norovirus is. Yes, she should have looked it up and it’s terrible she didn’t, but I think some folks here are being too quick to say she KNEW about the child/grandparent health situation and that she KNEW how serious norovirus can be. We just don’t have that information and it’s clear from commenters here that it’s perfectly plausible to not be informed about the specifics of norovirus.

            4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              It doesn’t say she knew her child had norovirus. It says she was aware that there was a norovirus outbreak at her child’s daycare. I know that might sound like splitting hairs, but it makes a difference.

        3. Pup Seal*

          Sadly some people don’t care about other people’s health and safety. My coworkers are prone to respiratory illnesses, but the Big Boss will get angry if we use sick days. One time I came to work with a bad cold. One co-worker was so upset that I was there sick, and eventually my supervisor sent me home. Big Boss got mad at both my supervisor and me and gave me a lecture that I should just stay away from everyone when I’m sick. Big Boss even admitted that my coworkers can easily get sick.

          2. Rater Z*

            I had a job once where the manager said he expected everyone to come in sick anyway because they would feel just as bad at home as they would at work. Unless it was the flu because he didn’t want it spread to everyone else. That was back in 1970 and I was only there for three months.

            When I was working with freight charges, if I didn’t feel good, I was usually tell the boss that if it was within five hundred bucks, that was close enough. That would get me sent home.

      3. TootsNYC*

        And this is what would motivate me to add to Alison’s advice:

        Make sure she truly understands, and that everyone does, that it’s OK to call and say, “my kid is sick, I have to stay home with him.” Do everything you can to reinforce how OK that it, how preferrable that is.

        2. yasmara*

          Right – @TootsNYC, this is what I was thinking too. The OP is her manager. So the OP needs to be sure she is very clear with ALL employees about the appropriate use of the sick leave policy and the inappropriateness of bringing a sick child into the office. And she should sit down with this particular employee and say that “this can never happen again,” making it very very clear. I am a working parent myself, with a spouse who travels quite a bit, so I have tons and tons of sympathy for the position working parents are put in between daycare, school schedules, events, etc. But I would NEVER bring a sick kid into an office. I do often work at home with a sick kid, but I’m not risking anyone else’s health/safety.

        3. Elizabeth West*

          I like framing it that way–rather than, “DON’T DO WHAT VERONICA DID OMG,” which everyone is probably already thinking, say it positively. “Your sick time is there for your benefit. If you or your children are ill, we encourage you to use it to care for them or yourself. All we ask is that you call in and notify your supervisor.”

      4. Mike C.*

        That doesn’t excuse putting the health of others in danger. It’s a terrible situation when it happens, but that’s not a justification.

      5. Lauren*

        I’d expect the mommy tax to judge her more for bringing the kid to work vs. taking a sick day off or working from home.

        1. Amber T*

          Meh I disagree. “Look how parenting doesn’t interfere with my ability to do my work at all!” vs. “Out of sight, out of mind, if I’m not at work then I’m not working.” It’s possible there was a thought of “look how dedicated I am to my work, still working even though my child is sick” (similar to the people who show up for work sick, then brag how they never take a sick day).

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          That’s not been my experience, at least not at nonprofits or in the academy. While people are irritated by mom bringing her kid in, I’ve found they’re more likely to penalize her for not coming in at all. And that was in the super liberal Bay Area.

    3. Allison*

      I’m thinking that too. Maybe she’s stingy with her sick time, because she doesn’t get much or because she and her children get sick often enough that she does legitimately worry about running out.

      She could have also had some pressing task that she felt she couldn’t push until the next day, or a deadline coming up.

      Also, maybe a past job frowned upon absence, and discouraged working from home, and she was worried about optics despite the realities of her current job. I’ve been there.

      1. Liane*

        “Maybe she’s stingy with her sick time, because she doesn’t get much…”
        The OP says they have sick time and don’t penalize people and Alison’s asked that we take OPs at their word.

        Yes, it was a horribly thoughtless act and there needs to be at least a Very Serious Talk. Lots of people have very wrongheaded ideas about health, unfortunately. (There’s at least one “Health Pros Tell the Most WTF Things Patients Think” list making the rounds in Facebook right now.

        And speaking of Very Serious Talks, I hope that if this had been a place with stingy, vindictive sick time policies and the employee told Public Health so, that Public Health officials would have been having a Serious Talk with some great-grandbosses.

        1. 42*

          >>The OP says they have sick time and don’t penalize people and Alison’s asked that we take OPs at their word.<<

          I take the OP at their word.

          BUT. What the OP says is one thing, but my original point wayyy up there was in essence 'What is the employees' *perception* of PTO use'.

          Wrong or right, my instincts are telling me that for a particular reason, the employee believed it was better to bring her child into the office with her than for her to take a sick day.

          So I would want t be sure that the OP is crystal clear, with all employees, at all time, that taking PTO for a sick family member is encouraged and will not be frowned-upon, that caring for a family member and getting PTO for it is indeed part of their benefit package, etc.

          1. Amber T*

            To piggyback off of this (I mention it above) – a lot of sick policies are not clear at all regarding what you can do when a dependent is sick. My company has unlimited sick days if you’re the one who’s sick, but there’s no formal policy on what we can do if we have a child who’s sick. It seems it’s up to the employee’s manager.

      2. Ann O'Nemity*

        “Maybe she’s stingy with her sick time, because she doesn’t get much or because she and her children get sick often enough that she does legitimately worry about running out.”

        Sure, that’s possible. I thought I our leave policy was very generous *until* I had a baby in daycare.

    4. LC*

      I have to say, I’m surprised by some of the vitriol in the comments. While bringing a sick child into work certainly shows poor judgment, the idea that the employee could have killed her colleagues’ family members is a tad overblown. People show up to work under the weather the time*–not to mention the illnesses you inevitably come into contact with at the gym, the supermarket, etc. IMO, the real problem is the very real violation of a work norm–not bringing children to work, and particularly sick children–rather than any kind of consequentialist argument.

      (*Like Alison, I think sick days exist for a reason, and people should use them when needed. But sometimes you just wake up and feel a little iffy, and it’s not worth using up a sick day if you’re going to shake it off by noon.)

      1. AnonEMoose*

        I’m going to disagree with you on one point – that her actions could have ended up killing a colleague’s family member is not overblown. It’s a fact. Someone on chemo, someone elderly, etc., does not have a healthy immune system.

        And it is quite possible for them to develop complications a healthy person would not, resulting in hospitalization at the least. At least one person did end up in the hospital because of her carelessness, and that’s bad enough.

        I’m not advocating for firing her, not now. But I do think a very serious conversation is in order, and that she needs to be told “Your colleagues are probably going to be pretty chilly to you for awhile. It’s not ok for them to be rude, but their feelings on this are entirely understandable; you are going to have to earn back their trust.”

          1. BeautifulVoid*

            People with compromised immune systems (including myself) or who live with an immunocompromised person likely weigh the risks of working alongside other adults who may very well be coming in to work with simple colds. They can take as many precautions as possible, and hope that the other adults they work with also take precautions when they’re sick to help mitigate the spread of germs. Having a child with an extremely contagious, serious illness come in to the office and stick his hands into food that was shared by everyone probably did not factor in to the initial risk calculation.

            1. PK*

              Sure, but you’d agree that a simple cold could send you to the hospital regardless of your risk calculation?

        2. LC*

          But my point isn’t that her actions couldn’t have resulted in killing someone related to a coworker. It’s that the world is full of sick people, and the OP’s colleagues are likely to come into contact with similar or worse germs in day-to-day life. So the consequentialist argument doesn’t seem particularly persuasive, at least to me.

          More to the point, I think emphasizing the particulars of the illness puts too much weight on the norovirus itself, when the real issue isn’t what illness her kid had (or even necessarily that he was sick). It’s that you shouldn’t bring kids to work. After all, if her kid was suspended for a few days, it would still be inappropriate to bring him to work–and it’s crucial that the employee understand that bigger picture.

          In my opinion, the best way to stave off similar incidents in the future is to emphasize the inappropriateness of bringing a child to work–especially but not exclusively a sick one–and to speak to the value of using sick time for family illnesses that require attention. Something like, “I realize you may have been put in a tight spot the other day, but I want to emphasize that we don’t permit employees to bring their children to work, as it’s a distraction from the work we pay you to do. And it’s especially important not to bring sick children to work, since that exposes the whole office to illness. That being said, I know it’s hard to manage schedules when family members get sick, so I want you to know that we encourage you to use sick leave for these kinds of situations, and I hope you’ll feel comfortable doing so in the future.”

          1. fposte*

            And we do allow kids in to our work sometimes, and we have no official policy on when they’re allowed or illness, so this post is making me contemplate what that policy would be and whether I should have one.

            1. AD*

              You work in higher ed, don’t you? Do people just come for quick visits with kids, or do employees actually bring their children to work for longer stretches of time? I’m curious.

            2. Gov Worker*

              I’m surprised no one has mentioned the potential liability of having unauthorized people in the workplace. If the child had injured herself on company property, the company is exposed to loss. Also, the child could have picked up an illness in the office!

              Another point I’m surprised not to see mentioned is that a recovering child would likely be far more comfortable at home rather than in an office for eight plus hours. I wouldn’t have subjected my child to this.

              As a parent who did all vaccinations and was very careful about my childs health, I would have found out more about norovirus if it came up at my child’s school, and this was long before the internet. Outbreaks were limited to pink eye and lice at her school, and she never got head lice, but pink eye is highly contagious too.

              Norovirus is almost irrelevant here. If children were not permitted in the office, and no official exception was requested or granted, that in itself is worthy of disciplinary action. To me, the mom here does sound pretty clueless to not connect the office outbreak to her child, but hey, anything’s possible. Actions have consequences, so she will just have to live with the consequences.

              1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                Not all parents feel they have the ability or resources to leave their child at home, particularly if they can’t provide care.

                If this is an office—which it sounds like it is, not a warehouse or a workplace that requires security clearances, etc.—the liability concern is actually pretty low.

    5. Callie*

      I know OP says that people aren’t “penalized” for taking sick leave, but even if it’s not official, the office culture could be that people are discouraged from taking sick leave even if you officially CAN. I once taught somewhere where even though we were given 12 sick days a year, we got a lecture and a Disapproving Look from our principal if we dared actually use it. She even told us in a faculty meeting that we could time our pregnancies to end in summer because she “didn’t want to have to find long-term subs while we were at home with our kids”. So while officially we had 12 paid days, we were discouraged from using them, and no one at the district office would have known about her lecture. (Unless that was their attitude too…)

  2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

    I’d have been so mortally friggin’ pissed with her that she’d have already gotten Alison’s suggested “what were you thinking,” delivered at high volume and not particularly as a question. To bring your norovirus-infected child to work is unthinkable enough, but to let him traipse around the potluck, coffee maker, and meeting rooms? This is not just a lapse of judgment, it’s evidence of a lack of judgment that is profound and bizarre. So is the fact that she hasn’t already personally apologized in an abject and public fashion. What the hell is wrong with this woman?

    1. Admin Assistant*

      For. Real. If you’re going to bring a sick kid to work, 1) Don’t do that 2) keep him/her the hell away from food/the kitchen and other common areas.

      This whole story shows such poor judgment on this woman’s part that if I worked with her my opinion of her would be irreparably damaged. WOOF.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Yes, irrevocably. I’d be considering letting her go, honestly.

        1. automaticdoor*

          Same. It would very much depend on her response to the talk, but I would also be considering letting her go.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            Maybe my tune would change if the talk triggered an agonized OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE and heartfelt, spoken, personal apologies to the people and families affected, combined with an offer to assist the family with the hospitalized kid. Honestly, I think she’s damaged her relations with her coworkers too much at this point.

            1. AMG*

              Right–but now she knows and still hasn’t said a word to anyone. What a terrible person. I hope she is at least so ashamed she can’t bear to face anyone. But I doubt it.

            2. Lora*

              +999999999999999999999999999999999999

              If she had a bonus to take away, I would be all, “and your bonus is not happening for you, because we will be using that money to pay for your colleagues’ hospital bills.” I would DEFINITELY have a mandatory training on communicable disease and infection control for the whole office, and if senior management was unclear on the need for lots and lots of paid sick days, I would tally up the cost of everyone being out, including in terms of lost business and opportunity cost for new programs that were set back while everyone was out barfing, cost of temp workers to cover for people, all of that, and present it to my manager with on one side, $$$$$$$$ or whatever vs the cost of paid sick days $$. Just so they are all crystal clear on the meaning of penny-wise and pound-foolish.

              Crap, I wouldn’t be surprised if the colleagues at least tried to claim workman’s comp.

              But mostly unless I saw a profuse apology, maybe a couple of tears wouldn’t go amiss (YOU MADE A SICK CHILD NEARLY DIE WITH YOUR FOOLISHNESS, YOU SHOULD CRY YOUR DAMN EYES OUT AT LEAST FOR ONE DAY), she would be so fired.

              If she actually DOES know anything about norovirus (e.g. if she had a medical-type background or biology background), she would be fired and have nothing but hate mail for her reference. “This person was my employee from (date) to (date). I fired her on the spot for deliberately infecting the entire office with norovirus. Elderly people and a child nearly died. It was horrible. Have a nice day.”

              1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                Lora, that’s not rational, and honestly, it would be a big problem to claim you’re withholding someone’s bonus to “pay for your colleagues’ hospital bills.” It’s not reasonable as a manager or an employer to try to punish people this way. Children and old people also die from the flu, from chickenpox, from strep-acquired scarlet fever, etc., etc.

                There are any number of “low level” illnesses that can become quite serious for specific populations. But that doesn’t mean that we tell people who come in with the flu—before they know if they have the flu but are aware that something’s going around—that we’re going to withhold their bonus because a coworker passed along the flu to someone in their family.

                I really think folks are going off a really deep edge on this. I understand that folks have really strong feelings about coming to work sick, bringing your sick kid to the office, norovirus, etc. But some of these reactions are extremely disproportionate.

                Also: You can’t claim worker’s comp for something like this. And if someone did, they would look extremely strange.

            3. Gov Worker*

              Yes. My 90 year old mother is in a nursing home, and if I brought norovirus to her because of these circumstances, boy oh boy would I be pissed. Mom seems somewhat insensitive here. People have been fired for less.

          2. ExcitedAndTerrified*

            Considering? You all are being more understanding than I am. I’d fire her outright, and never bother having a conversation about it.

            Intentionally exposing coworkers to diseases, then hiding you did it until there’s a public health investigation, might not be explicitly covered in the employee manual as “don’t do this”, but from a boss point of view, I’d look at it as being exactly the same as striking another employee. “Sorry, you’re unemployable in our eyes because you’re too big a risk to those around you, get out.”

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              It’s clear that you feel strongly about this, but your reaction here strikes me as over the top. You talk to the employee, you find out what on earth happened, and you go from there.

              It’s very unlikely that she deliberately exposed people to disease; it’s far more likely that she didn’t realize the consequences of what she was doing.

              1. Admin Assistant*

                But her child was banned from the daycare due to the illness. Even if she somehow was completely ignorant of how deadly (literally, deadly) serious it can be, I don’t think that excuses her actions in the slightest. Absence of intent doesn’t make what she did any less reckless or serious.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  As others have pointed out, daycares can be notorious for being overly cautious on illnesses. (They weren’t here, but that could have been the mom’s thinking if she wasn’t familiar with this particular illness.)

                2. RKB*

                  Not to mention Google is a FREE tool to use. I am always mind-blown by the explanation of “maybe they didn’t know.” You’re living in the age where the answers to any mindless question literally resides in a tiny pocket computer. Unless you don’t have access to these resources, there’s no excuses anymore.

                  Gosh, I’m an adult and if I get a weird bump I’m all over the internet about it. My dogs ears were warm yesterday and I spent an hour reading about why. I simply, truly, cannot fathom why she remained wilfully ignorant.

                3. fposte*

                  @RKB–do you Google stuff you *do* know about, though? Because I think there’s a disconnect here that isn’t first apparent. People can say “Oh, he has norovirus–I don’t know about that”; they can also say “Oh, he has norovirus–I know about that” but be wrong. The second is a pretty common response, maybe more common than the first, and since they don’t know their information is wrong, they don’t seek correction.

                  For an example from this comment section today, some people were talking about using hand sanitizer to protect against norovirus; others were pointing out that norovirus is a pathogen that hand sanitizer doesn’t work well against. Obviously I don’t know what people actually would do, but the odds are some of them would have whip out the hand sanitizer because they learned it’s the useful thing, and that they wouldn’t have decided to investigate whether they learned correctly or not.

              2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

                Ignorance only gets you so far with me. Even if you have no idea what noro does and how infectious it is, exposing the potluck food, going to a meeting room, and then keeping your head down until the local public health authority is investigating and still claiming it’s no big deal is compounding ignorance and bad judgment with shadiness and tone-deafness.

                2. LawCat*

                  I am with you, The Not Mad. I’d want her gone. You don’t get to behave like that and be off the hook even if you were super sorry about it and operating from ignorance. No. That woman is a serious liability for not only people’s health, but also morale. I would not give a second chance here.

                3. Jessesgirl72*

                  People are fired every day, without being Lucifer.

                  Not firing her for this abject ignorance- when everyone knows it hospitalized someone else’s child!- is going to be such a huge morale problem. Better, smarter, more conscientious workers are definitely looking for other jobs.

                4. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

                  We’ll see about that. Here’s a duck; we shall use my largest scales.

                5. AMG*

                  Nobody is saying she is Lucifer. We are saying that she exercises terrible judgment, has put the safety of her coworkers and their immune-compromised loved ones in danger, has permanently damaged her relationships with those coworkers, and has shown no effort to make the smallest of apologies.

                7. ThursdaysGeek*

                  However, if she was ignorant about the seriousness of norovirus, she could have also been ignorant how it spreads or that the subsequent sicknesses were caused by her sick kid. We don’t know what she doesn’t know. You know it and I know it, but it’s quite possible you’re suggesting firing for something that she really didn’t know.

                8. fposte*

                  @Jessesgirl–if she’d brought the kid to work and the disease hadn’t spread to people or resulted in anybody’s hospitalization, would you believe should be fired then?

                9. neverjaunty*

                  She doesn’t have to be Lucifer to be someone you wouldn’t want around the office – not because she was ignorant about norovirus, but because she seems to care very little that her actions harm others. And that attitude will manifest itself in lots of other toxic ways beyond the one-time problem of kid with norovirus.

                  Absolutely the OP should talk to her and find out WTF she was thinking. But if her attitude isn’t overwhelming remorse and a realization about why her actions were not OK, then this isn’t something a PIP can fix.

                10. AMG*

                  Yes, I called her a terrible person. I can see that she (hopefully) really didn’t know that norovirus is a Big Deal. But them to not even apologize? That doesn’t make her Lucifer, but all of it together is fireable, IMO.

                11. Bonky*

                  Totally agree, Not Mad. The lying by omission and the insistence it’s not a big issue – even after the involvement of the health authorities, for heaven’s sake – just underline the selfishness and stupidity that made her make this horrible decision in the first place.

                12. Jesmlet*

                  I’d say she was dangerously reckless. The fact that she kept that info to herself and seemingly hasn’t apologized only make it worse. This is not someone I’d keep around, if only for morale’s sake. So many other employees clearly feel strongly about this and while you don’t necessarily want to make it seem like public opinion can influence the status of an employee’s employment, keeping someone around that no one wants to work with will be such a huge drain that it’s not worth it. Plus I’d imagine she cost them money in lost productivity and all the sick pay so it was likely an expensive “mistake” too. Unless she was a top performer, better off for everyone except her if she’s just let go.

                13. Jessesgirl72*

                  @fposte

                  If she had merely been caught for bringing him to work and no one got sick, no. Then she gets the stern talking to.

                  However, people did get sick- and she did not own up to the fact that she knew it was norovirus and hasn’t even APOLOGIZED since then. The sickness is not the only factor.

                  She also probably cost the company 10’s of thousands of dollars in sick leave and lost work.

                  If I cost my company a bunch of money, even if it was a mistake, I’d be fired. Especially if I didn’t even take responsibility for it, and said it was “no big deal”

                14. fposte*

                  @Jessesgirl–okay, that interests me. So you’re saying the big okay/not okay divide is whether it costs the company money? Does that mean you’d similarly discipline an employee who came to work with a cold if people in her unit then had to call out sick with colds of their own?

                15. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  Not Mad, et al., this reaction makes no sense to me. What if her kid had a cold? What if he had a flu that’s known to sometimes develop into pneumonia? Would we still be lighting torches and demanding her head for letting her child go to the bathroom or escape to a meeting room/potluck? I’m not saying her behavior was great, but I think folks are reading in a lot of nefarious intent that’s not really supported by the information in the letter.

              3. Unanimously Anonymous*

                Alison, this is going to be a rare instance in which I disagree with you. Her conduct was completely deliberate – the kid had been suffering from a specific set of upper and/or lower GI symptoms, she knew he was sick, and she brought him to work anyway because she just didn’t give a damn about her colleagues. IIRC from my Business Law 101 class, civil law defines “intent” as being aware that a particular course of action is likely to injure another party, but deciding to take the action anyway.

                If it was just negligently spreading a headcold, I’d give her a mulligan along with a stern lecture. But this part…

                One of my direct reports has a child who is undergoing chemotherapy and who had to be hospitalized when she got sick. Another gave it to his grandmother, who resides in a retirement home. Pretty much everyone who works in my section was off sick from the norovirus at some point (diagnosis confirmed by public health).

                After public health spoke to the person who brought her sick child to work when they were investigating the outbreak in our office, she admitted to knowing his daycare had a norovirus outbreak and still bringing her sick child to the office. She did not speak up when others started getting sick, even though they had all the same symptoms as her son.

                …does it for me. She needs to be fired. Now.

                1. Emi.*

                  She could know he was sick without knowing how easily he could spread it, especially if she’s had no or lucky experience with noro in the past. My little sister had noro and none of the rest of us caught it, and if you skim the CDC page it’s easy to miss how cautious you have to be. I had no idea how easily it spreads until a couple weeks ago–i.e. I wouldn’t have been aware that taking the kid to work would be likely to injure another party. It’s a huge and unwarranted leap from “brought sick child to work on what sounds like short notice” to “doesn’t give a damn about other people.”

              4. Mike C.*

                Alison, I think you’re seriously underestimating the situation here. It’s pretty normal for someone who makes a serious safety error or otherwise puts their coworkers at serious risk to be fired immediately. That is done for the protection of everyone else. It’s the first job of a manager – to keep employees safe, why isn’t this your focus?

                2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  You can deal with the safety issue by making sure she understands the mistake and won’t repeat it. Most jobs actually don’t fire people the first time they make a serious error, although it sounds like it’s different in your particular field.

                3. Mike C.*

                  It’s more than just making a serious error – and even then, some errors justify firing.

                  Her error caused harm, and her reluctance to talk at first caused others to be harmed further and public resources to be wasted.

                  Also, I should clarify that “immediately” means “immediately after an investigation to ascertain all the facts”.

                4. Elizabeth West*

                  I think it depends on the field, actually. In a lab? Hell yeah–everyone who works there is expected to understand protocol. In an office? Depends also on what the error was.

                  While I think this could definitely be a fireable offense, I do agree that a serious discussion is merited, at least so the management can understand exactly what happened. Did someone start a fire? Bad. Why? Was it a mistake, or did they deliberately ignore signs of trouble? As management, even if I were going to let her go, I would want some details about the situation first.

                5. Doe-eyed*

                  Allison, my professional experience has been that outcomes drive consequences. If someone makes a mistake and causes someone to be seriously ill, they have typically been fired. If you catch a school bus driver going over the speed limit and otherwise being safe, it’s probably worth a talking to. If you find out she’s speeding when she runs over a pedestrian, there’s a different set of consequences.

                6. Admin Assistant*

                  Totally agree. I really think Alison is right on the money 99% of the time, but I also think that she’s underestimating/downplaying how incredibly serious this was.

                  I don’t think we know all the facts in this case to determine whether she truly warrants being fired, but I 100% think it’s on the table and am honestly quite surprised at Alison’s responses in the comments.

                7. RKB*

                  I’m immunocompromised. Two years ago, i caught the chicken pox. This led me to miss a whole semester of school and I now have an extra $6,000 to fork out.

                  This isn’t just a woman who brought in her sick kid. There’s economic, social, and psychological ramifications spreading far and wide. People had to miss work. Use vacation time. Pay medical bills. A child was hospitalized. An outbreak was spread to a vulnerable population AND their caretakers. Then the epicentre of this situation refuses to apologize for it?

                  Maybe she won’t get fired. But if I worked with her, I would find it very hard to look past this situation, and I’m a particularly forgiving doormat type. It may actually be to her benefit to leave this position, as I can’t imagine the mother of a hospitalized child would be too fond of this lady, nevertheless anyone else.

                8. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  @Doe-eyed:

                  If someone makes a mistake and causes someone to be seriously ill, they have typically been fired.

                  What’s your industry, and what was the mistake, and what was the illness?

                9. Doe-eyed*

                  @Princess Consuela – this has been across multiple industries.

                  In high school, a coworker brought in the chicken pox to a restaurant we worked at and they were fired when diners got sick and complained. (They weren’t actively sick, they had an infection in their house and laughed about it)

                  After college I worked in a building services co (janitorial, day porters, etc). A coworker was horsing around on equipment, ran over another coworker’s foot breaking it. Other people had done it before and had been reprimanded, but because they had injured someone and we paid for it, they were terminated.

                  Same business, an employee carelessly emptied a sharps container into a regular trash can to save time. They didn’t typically work in medical offices. Their coworker got stuck by a needle and spent months having to be tested for various bloodborne illnesses. Also fired.

                  Now that I’m in healthcare, they’ll just outright fire you if you don’t get vaccines for things, much less bring in active virus. Not only do they encourage people to go home if they’re sick, they have a bounty for coworkers who let managers know there are sick people on the units.

                  Lots of people have done careless, thoughtless things that they didn’t intend to do harm, but sometimes you hurt people and it seems very callous to the people you hurt when their punishment is “a strong talking to” and your punishment is spending 3 days in the ICU with your sick child.

              5. Engineer Girl*

                She deliberately covered it up until the Health Department outed her. How do you trustee her again, especially since there seems to be no apparent remorse?

                3. Sprinkled with Snark*

                  She also covered it up when she brought the sick child to work to begin with. She brought a sick child to work, and didn’t think twice about letting him have the run of the place. She should NOT have brought the child to work to begin with, but she did, and then, instead of shutting the door to the office and guarding it with her life, she came and went about the business of the day, leaving him alone for periods of time long enough where she couldn’t even grab him quickly if he made a dash for it, like kids will do. She didn’t even warn her co-workers that the kid even had the sniffles, let alone noro. All her co-workers knew was that “Mary” had her kid at work today. They couldn’t even have chosen to avoid Mary and the kid if they wanted to. If I thought a co-worker’s kid even had the sniffles I wouldn’t go near him. Mary’s silence tells me that she knew it was serious enough to lie. What did she tell her co-workers when the kid was grabbing food and coughing on everything in the lunchroom? I’m sure someone must have said, “oh, little Fergus is here today. What’s up?” She surely didn’t say he couldn’t go to daycare because he has noro, no big deal. It’s clear she knew it WAS a big deal. I think not only does Mary need a STERN warning (perhaps even a suspension without pay for a few days), but the company needs to examine the child in the workplace policy, when is it okay, for how long, under what circumstances. He was there longer than just a quick visit or a drop-of or something. is this okay?

              6. Gov Worker*

                I disagree. Offices aren’t much different than daycare centers in that they are petri dishes for all kinds of nastiness. So there are limited to no tolerance policies for sick children. It’s not a reach to think that having a sick, even seemingly recovering child in the workplace might not be prudent. It’s a stretch to me that she had just no idea about what she was doing. Would she have let sick folks around her new baby, or invite them over for dinner. I think claims of ignorance are somwhat disingenuous here, but I realize everyone isn’t like me.

            2. regina phalange*

              I am falling on this side of things too – I would fire someone outright for doing this. Zero sympathy or understanding, especially since the OP has noted she has a full bank of sick days and would not have been penalized for using them. NOTHING you are working on, tight deadline or not, is more important than the well being of your coworkers and their families.

              2. SarahKay*

                I’m in the UK, so our definition of sick days may well differ from that in the US, but is it possible it just wouldn’t occur to her that she could use a sick day because her child is sick? She might think sick days = only to be used if she herself is sick, and thus that calling in sick to stay home with her kid would get her into trouble.
                And as others have said, she may also have had no idea how awful Norovirus is, especially if her kid had only had a very mild dose of it.

                1. GingerHR*

                  In fact in the UK sick leave is almost always for the individual – parents / carers shouldn’t use sick leave to cover a dependent’s illness. That’s a different type of leave (I’m sure that sounds OTT to our American colleagues, but there are a number of reasons).

                2. CanCan*

                  I’m in Canada. I have generous sick leave, but when I use it, I certify that I was unable to perform my duties due to illness (i.e. *my* illness). I’m sure people do it, but I would feel bad claiming to have been ill when I myself wasn’t. We do get “family” leave, but it’s only 5 days/year, and that’s for all family-type responsibilities (including caring for a sick kid/family member, attending a school function, unexpected daycare/school closure, meeting with your lawyer/banker, etc.) – which is not a lot, considering how often kids get sick (esp. if you have more than one).

                  Not that I would bring a kid with recent gastrointestinal symptoms to work! or school, library, store, etc.

                3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  It’s possible, SarahKay, although we’d have to ask OP. There are a good number of employers who do not allow you to take sick leave to care for your ill dependents—they’ll often make you take it out of accrued leave for vacation or personal-time-off (PTO). And there are also a number of employers who do in fact let you use sick leave for caregiving, but neither practice is so dominant that one could assume “sick leave” automatically includes caretaking.

            3. AMG*

              No way is she over the top. She’s right on the money. It doesn’t matter if she didn’t think or not. She still did it. If she can’t get from A to B on her own brainpower on this, then she still shouldn’t be in that office. I would never trust her judgment again.

              2. Jessesgirl72*

                That’s exactly where I think it falls.

                The consensus around here is that either you trust your employees or you don’t.

                How could anyone reasonable trust this woman again?

                1. fposte*

                  That’s not how that phrase gets used, though–we use it to mean if you do trust your employees, why would you not trust them to get your work done? It’s not a suggestion that trust is black or white, and I would strongly argue that it’s not a binary.

                2. yasmara*

                  I absolutely agree that she did something wrong. But painting her as completely untrustworthy is pretty harsh. I’m married to a food scientist and I’m a health news junky, so I know a lot about norovirus for a non-health-professional, but I know many, many people (educated, well-read, people) who have NO IDEA how contagious & hard to kill norovirus is, much less that you can reinfect yourself as well as others.

                  Is the issue that she doesn’t seem sorry? Or sorry enough? Not understanding that she made a big mistake is indeed a problem. Does she have a pattern of this kind of behavior? I have a pretty strict employee conduct handbook at my work and this is not something I can imagine anyone getting fired for unless it was the culmination of a series of bad decisions/bad judgements.

                  Here’s a real world example from my life. At age 4, my kid had whooping cough and was contagious on an airplane, family wedding, at daycare, and a host of other places before it was identified by *anyone.* He had been fully vaccinated on time and we had no identifiable vector of exposure. This was years ago, before pertussis was more visible in the media and he presented with a mild case. After four weeks of coughing, but showing no other symptoms whatsoever (beyond the first mild fever, which had gone away after a few days), we took him to the pediatrician where, based on my description of the cough, he was identified as probably having pertussis. A nasal swab ended up positive.

                  His entire daycare cohort was informed & the state public health department called us as well. We didn’t know. I didn’t send him to daycare when he had a fever, but he certainly went back when the fever was gone & he was left with just a cough. Should we have been banned from our daycare? Fired as clients? My husband has a PhD & I have a master’s degree, but we had never heard of a vaccinated child getting pertussis and we, at the time, had never heard the characteristic cough. I’m not saying ignorance is always an excuse, but it certainly could be a factor. (BTW, the pertussis vaccine is only about 80% effective.)

                3. NoMoreMrFixit*

                  I don’t think it’s a matter of trust. This has nothing to do with whether she can do her job properly. The problem is that this person has completely shredded her reputation and relationship with her coworkers. She’s now facing the new reality of an openly hostile work environment caused by her actions. That is what the manager has to contend with – how to get work done with a team ready to lynch one of the crew. Even if she isn’t fired I doubt she has much of a future left in her current role.

                4. Jessesgirl72*

                  No, the rest of the sentence is normally, that if you don’t trust your employees, they shouldn’t be working for you anyway.

                  She snuck the kid in, she lied by omission even after people were dropping like flies, and then she has not even apologized.

                  This is the kind of thing that makes me say someone is not generally trustworthy. It isn’t just bad judgement or potentially not thinking norovirus was serious- it’s about genuinely sneaky and underhanded behavior.

                5. AlexDCgovPR*

                  @Yasmara- I really like your example. I think if many of us looked back in our lives we could find similar ones.

                  I have a very serious kidney disease and was the recipient of a transplant last year. Due to this, I’m immunocompromised. If my colleague had done what this woman did, I would have likely been hospitalized. However, I still wouldn’t be calling for her to be fired. People make mistakes. Sometimes really, really bad ones! But negligence does not ill intent make. If the option is there to educate the person and they seem genuinely open to discussing why their initial behavior was unacceptable and understand that it can’t be repeated, that’s better in my opinion than firing the offender.

                6. Knitty Knotty*

                  @Jessesgirl72 – I absolutely agree with you about never being able to trust this person again. The fact that she snuck her child in is just nuts. What if a fire or tornado (sorry – living in the midwest makes that a possibility for me) had happened and the building needed to be evacuated? No-one else would have known that child was there if something had happened to her mom.

                  The public health issues aside, this is a huge security problem that happened. There’s no way this employee could ever be considered trustworthy again.

        2. AMG*

          Absolutely let her go! At a bare minimum, she should be written up and be threatened within an inch of her job. What on EARTH. What if the chemo child or the elderly grandmother had died because of this? It could have easily happened. She’s a menace, whether she just didn’t think about other people or not is irrelevant.

      2. Temperance*

        Honestly, there is literally nothing she could do to make up for this, at least in my opinion. Letting your kid touch communal food WHEN HE HAS NOROVIRUS makes you a jerk. A disgusting jerk at that.

        1. Cat*

          It sounds like that part was the kid sneaking out. Yeah that’s why it was a bad idea to bring the kid there, because they do that. But it wasn’t just willful disregard for the kid touching the food.

          1. Hermione*

            Oh, I saw this after I posted below and if that’s indeed the case, please disregard my post. Kids do wander, and cake is hard enough for me to deny myself, so I don’t blame him.

          2. Jesmlet*

            Nah, if your kid is sick with a contagious illness, you watch him like a hawk. I’m curious how old this kid was… if he is in daycare I’m assuming younger than 5 and if so, how could you let that kid out of your sight in your office? And with enough time to touch food… This isn’t the worst part but it just adds to it.

            1. PlainJane*

              This. And you don’t bring a sick kid to work with you anyway. But yeah, if you bring your (healthy) child to work, you watch that child. That’s why really small children shouldn’t be at work–keeping them out of trouble requires a lot of attention, which means either you aren’t working or your child is at risk of getting hurt (or in this case, hurting someone else).

        2. Hermione*

          Honestly – and this depends on the maturity and age of the child, but given that the letter uses ‘daycare’ and not ‘school’ I’m making assumptions here – I’d be hard-pressed to imagine letting my kid near communal food at all, regardless of them being sick. Grabbing a cracker or carrot off a communal plate, sure, but most daycare-aged kids wouldn’t be tall- or coordinated-enough to safely navigate a potluck, and though I’m typically wary of judging how people parent, this part pinged in my head as something ‘not right.’ And while I certainly wouldn’t reprimand/fire an employee based on their parenting-styles, it’s another thing that makes me question her judgment here.

          1. J.B.*

            If kid wanted cake (understandable), why didn’t mom bring him a plate? I don’t get this. Well, I don’t get any of it but really not this part.

          2. Kate*

            Ooh, good point. I know that in my break room there is no way the child could have gotten into the food by himself, the table is too tall and we don’t have chairs there.

          3. Temperance*

            In a previous life, I did banquet service. Little kids are surprisingly good at putting their hands in buffet food, including things like fruit salad, tuna salad, etc. They’ll reach above their heads on occasion.

            Which is why Mom shouldn’t have brought the little kid to work and left him unsupervised.

    2. BeautifulVoid*

      Yeah, I think it’s the combination that’s making me (and some others?) side-eye this woman so hard. If she’d snuck the sick kid in, but did a good job containing him, to the point where no one even knew he was there until they left for the day, and her attitude was “meh, whatevs”, then it’s just time to have a chat where you review policies and tell her it’s not acceptable for her son to be in the office. If he bolted while she wasn’t paying attention and stuck his noro-infected hands into communal food, and she fell over herself apologizing, giving a reason like not wanting to miss an important work deadline or something like that…okay, still problematic, but again, I think just the chat about policies is warranted. But the fact that she seems so indifferent to all the problems she’s caused is the sticking point for me. People may or may not want to work with someone who has poor judgment in a non-work-related area, but there’s a higher chance they’re not going to want to pretend to be civil to someone who, so far, has been completely unapologetic about getting everyone in the office sick and sending their family members to the hospital. I can see this eventually becoming an “it’s her or us” situation, either outright, or more subtly as her colleagues quietly jump ship. And if that’s the case, I don’t think it’s the wrong call to get rid of her.

  3. Grey*

    Ooooh. I am still nursing a grudge against whoever was the source of a terrible, long-lasting illness I got last fall (it was someone in Scotland, and that’s as far as I’ve been able to narrow it down … so far).

    Sounds like you’re still on a mission to hunt him down. :) Can’t say I’d blame you though.

  4. Cambridge Comma*

    A separate apology/card to the parent of the child undergoing chemotherapy might be a good idea too.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Absolutely, given that the family is now out a significant deductible and coinsurance.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      Seconding this!

      (assuming that employee’s family situation is common knowledge and OP wasn’t told as a confidant outside of work).

      1. Cambridge Comma*

        I guess she could be told (with the person’s permission) that an unnamed colleague has a family member undergoing chemo and that that family member was hospitalized, and she could write an apology despite not knowing who she was writing to. If she doesn’t know about this particular consequence of her actions, she really should.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          That’s a good point.

          Also (if it’s not common knowledge), learning about this should help her understand how bad this situation is (…if she still doesn’t get how bad a move this was).

    3. Marche*

      One for the person whose grandmother caught it as well, I think – elders are often hit hard by illness, and since she’s in a retirement home it could possibly spread there very quickly.

    4. Elizabeth H.*

      I don’t know if this would really be appropriate. It may seem like a “let the punishment fit the crime” thing but her actions should be dealt with by the employer (however severely) on the grounds of appropriate workplace behavior and her professional judgment, rather than in terms of person-to-person consequences.

      1. Amber T*

        It’s sad that that’s what immediately came to my mind too. An apology is automatically* an admission of guilt. Fair? Not fair? This is why I didn’t go into law.

        *I am not a lawyer, so I can’t say that with 100% accuracy, but that seems to be the case.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          An apology is not an admission of guilt, but some attorneys think it is, so they caution their clients not to apologize—especially in the context of malpractice cases (a kind of negligence claim).

          The law has been changing on a state-by-state basis in the context of negligence because most of the time we want people to be able to apologize without fearing legal repercussions for expressing empathy.

  6. Grits McGee*

    As someone who caught norovirus at work, I would have a really hard time trusting the judgement of someone who did something like this. Honestly, I feel like this tops some of the letters we’ve had about bosses crashing weddings and funerals. Not only do you feel like you’re dying (and actively wishing you were dead) when you have norovirus, this woman could have legitimately killed someone doing this.

    1. Another Lawyer*

      Same. I got norovirus at work and it was easily the most miserable weekend of my life. I’ve never been so violently ill and I’m young/healthy. I would probably need a few weeks away from this person to cool off enough to be polite again.

      1. Lauren*

        I had it for a week, and was out of commission for 2 weeks because I was so dehydrated that I went to the ER 2x to be given 3 bags of saline overall. I was technically healthy, and it destroyed my body and my ability to eat / retain any fluids.

      1. AMG*

        How about this:
        1. I went to a bar and had a few beers. (Brought my sick kid to work)
        2. I needed to go home. I know I shouldn’t drive drunk, but I didn’t think it was a big deal (kid shouldn’t be around people, but I need to bend the rules because…I haven’t taken a sick day in 2 years? Whatever.)
        3. I know I am buzzed, but don’t realize how drunk I am (didn’t realize how bad norovirus is)
        4. I proceed to put other people’s lives in jeopardy but still don’t think it’s a big deal. (same/same)
        5. I show absolutely no remorse and have no consequences for my actions. Everyone I come in contact with should be okay with this.
        She should thank her lucky stars that nobody takes her to court for the lost income / medical bills / endangerment. And that she still has a job.

        1. SimonTheGreyWarden*

          But even an intelligent adult could be told by the daycare that the child couldn’t be around *other kids* and could fail to extrapolate that to other *people* in general. She may have believed the child was only contagious to kids and that this was not something adults would come down with or would be as likely to come down with. I don’t think that excuses the negligence, but I don’t think the vitriol is really necessary or useful.

    3. Cath in Canada*

      Same. It’s one thing if it’s accidental (a lot of people don’t seem to realise that norovirus is incredibly infectious, and that people can stay contagious for days after their symptoms are gone), but this sounds truly egregious. I hate hate hate norovirus, which has ruined two Christmases and part of the Vancouver Olympic games for me.

      1. Emi.*

        Until recently, I did not realize at all what a big deal norovirus is. I knew it was nasty, but I didn’t realize how easily it spread, and the daycare sending a kid home wouldn’t have tipped me off, because I expect daycares to have paranoid disease policies.

          1. neverjaunty*

            My experience with daycares and schools is that when a serious disease or something like lice is going around, you get a flyer or other information explaining what the illness is and how to prevent spreading it. I find if extremely hard to believe that this employee had no idea that it was anything different than “hey, somebody here has the sniffles”.

            1. Kate*

              Agree. I have seen/heard of these for chicken pox, differentiating flu and cold and when symptoms are dangerous, etc.

            2. Elizabeth West*

              That’s what I was thinking. Wouldn’t the daycare know this? A ban seems more serious than just saying, “Don’t bring little Eddie back until his fever is gone.” Eddie could still be sniffling but no longer contagious.

              I wish we knew what they told her. Of course, I have no experience with daycares, though I do know they don’t want sick kids there because illnesses spread so easily (hands in mouths, etc.).

            3. Anon for this*

              Same here.

              Also, even if you make it to adulthood without learning what norovirus is or how to use Google, I think we can all figure out that if your child’s too sick to be around other kids, the child’s also too sick to be around adults. It’s not rocket science.

              I’m so sorry for everyone who had to deal with this bad decision, including the poor sick child stuck in a workplace for the day.

              1. Zahra*

                Yup. My kid went to 4 different daycares between ages 6 months and 5 years old. Not one has given us info-sheets on illnesses when there were outbreaks. They would send our kid home for pinkeye, which is hardly a dangerous illness and is as likely to be virus-based than bacteria-based. Giving antibiotics is often a waste of time and money, but they wanted antibiotic ointment before admitting him back.

                On top of that, a home-based daycare could have to close because the owner is sick or some kids got sick and they need to disinfect the whole place. That doesn’t mean your own kid is sick, just that some other kid was.

                I can totally understand why a parent with a sick with no or minimal symptoms would not take the illness seriously, especially if they are not aware that others have immuno-suppressed loved ones. And using that line to say why they brought the kid to work.

                Yes, the employee should know the extent of the consequences for other people. She should show remorse. But it doesn’t justify an immediate firing.

          2. Mike C.*

            But you know what is common? Google!

            I get that we often disagree on the issue of ignorance (especially labor law!) but when it comes to issues of health and safety, shouldn’t that possible risk tip the scales even a little bit?

            1. Emi.*

              From skimming the CDC page (which is what I would do if my kid got sick), it’s pretty easy to miss how freakishly paranoid you have to be.

        2. AnotherLibrarian*

          Me neither. Not sure I should be admitting this, but I had to Google “norovirus” after reading this letter and these comments. I think she could have honestly not realized what a risk she was exposing her coworkers too.

          1. EddieSherbert*

            True (I recently learned about it when friend’s work had an outbreak), but I still stand by “if they’re sick enough to be sent home, they’re too sick to go to your work… especially if you suspect kids aren’t welcome at your work and you have to hide them in your office.”

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Absolutely true. I don’t think anyone is arguing that bringing a sick kid to work is okay, whether or not it’s norovirus, just that she may not have grasped the full situation.

              1. Cat*

                It’s also not uncommon in some offices. I don’t think that’s a good thing, but I’ve worked in offices where that’s the culture and people think of it as normal.

            2. Observer*

              Sure. She definitely messed up, which is why she definitely also needs to have a VERY SERIOUS TALKING TO. But, it doesn’t mean that she knowingly and intentionally put people’s lives at risk.

          3. Bonky*

            …but she then failed to speak up when other people started demonstrating the same symptoms. And continued failing to speak up until the public health authorities became involved. And she appears to have continue to attempt to minimise what a dreadful thing to have done this is. There’s not just ignorance at play here; someone’s trying to disingenuously dig themselves out of a hole.

        3. Michaela T*

          Yes, my experience as a non-parent is that people I know tend to treat daycares as being over-the-top about sending kids home. It’s a common thing to hear people complain about, especially when a parent has to use PTO to stay home with a child that doesn’t appear sick.

          1. Government Worker*

            Yes. I’ve got two kids in daycare, and they have to stay home for all sorts of stuff. I’ve been stuck at home before for 2-3 days with a kid whose only definable symptom was a low fever (and maybe some lethargy that disappeared when the fever was medicated). Maybe it was teething, maybe it was a mild bug, or maybe something else but they were home for 24 hours after the fever ended. Pinkeye, hand foot and mouth, strep throat, and croup are other common reasons for kids to be excluded from daycare – all are contagious, but not nearly as bad as norovirus. So it’s easy for parents to shrug off kids’ illnesses.

            1. NW Mossy*

              Lice is another one that’s particularly maddening. From a public health perspective, it’s generally considered to be a nuisance rather than an illness, but kids get booted from daycare/school in most places if they have them. My older daughter’s missed more school due to lice than anything else in her life, and while I get it, I still wince at the $100 tab to get it professionally removed every time it happens.

              1. Rusty Shackelford*

                I’m… confused. You’re annoyed that your daughter gets sent home if she has lice. You’re also annoyed that you have to pay $100 to get it professionally removed (does that work? because when we were stuck on the lice carousel, I’d have given a major body part to be done with it) when she catches it at school. Aren’t these two conflicting opinions? Or am I misreading?

                1. NW Mossy*

                  Not so much conflicting, but simply that it’s a situation for which there is no good solution. Lice spread and no one likes them, so that weighs towards kicking kids out of school until they’re nit-free. On the flip side, booting kids from school means they’re not learning even though they’re well enough to learn and there’s little to no risk of making another child seriously ill by giving them lice.

                  And yes, professional removal does work. That’s why I’m willing to spend the money – it’s the only way I can be sure that I’m not going to take several more days off work in the following weeks to deal with future generations of lice from the same originating exposure. I only wish it were more financially accessible for the benefit of others. I can afford it, but the family that needs to treat 3 kids and 2 adults at $100/person isn’t able to and they end up being the ones that loop it back through the school several times before it finally gets stamped out.

              2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

                You know who else thinks the $100 treatment fee is a major drag? You know who benefits when affected kids get booted to be treated? Every other kid’s parent – a group which typically includes you, too. Or do you just want all the parents, including you, to all pay $100 every time a kid with lice shows up?

              3. Pommette*

                Lice are a good example of the kind of problem that makes it easy for parents not to take daycare and school warnings seriously.

                Lice are super unpleasant, but they aren’t a serious health problem. They are highly contagious in a school environment, but not that contagious in the adult world. My niece’s school recently shut down over a lice epidemic. It was a reasonable decision on the school’s part, but the parents who picked their kids up from school and took them to work, or to the store, or to any other public space were also making a pretty reasonable decision.

                Schools and daycares will send children home for all kinds of minor health concerns. It’s reasonable: their clientele is made up of tiny people with underdeveloped immune systems who like to put things in their mounts. The OP’s employee made a huge mistake, but I can see how it would be easy to think that the bug your child is bringing home from daycare this week isn’t any worse than the bug your child brought up last month, or the month before.

          2. Jessie the First (or second)*

            Yes, but the thing is, as parents we know daycares have to send kids home for every little thing, and we also know they tell us when it is really actually serious and not just “policy.” That’s why it is irritating to have to keep your kid home so often – because we know they tell us when it is serious, and most of the time it isn’t.

            Like, “Your kid has a fever, so sorry, you have to pick her up and she has to be fever free for 24 hours before she can come back” is a pain in the neck, but then when it is serious you get a “OMG SOMEONE HAS NOROVIRUS AT SCHOOL AND WE ARE TELLING EVERYONE!! There is a norovirus outbreak, this is incredibly contagious and is contagious for several days after symptoms, your child needs to be home and in quarantine if she shows any symptoms at all, we are letting you know now so you can make plans.” If your child is the one showing actual symptoms of norovirus/whooping cough/flu, they tell you and they tell you to keep your kid home for days and they tell you it is serious.

            1. Kyrielle*

              Your day care is better than the one my kids were in for the first seven years I had kids! (The one my youngest is in now would have conveyed that.)

              They just called and said your kid was throwing up/fevered/lethargic/out of sorts/whatever, and if there was something going around they’d mention that when they first became aware of it – not when your kid showed signs – and hand you a dry information sheet on it.

              And even so, IMO, you read the sheet, you research it, you do what is needed.

              And for goodness’ sake if you misjudge it and people get sick, you apologize.

              I can see how someone could make the mistake *as* a mistake, and not as a purely-selfish “I need this so never mind these obvious potential consequences” decision. And I think the argument that “day care took it seriously so obviously parents should also know to take it seriously” is…not as universal as you could wish.

              But still, at *best* she made a huge mistake and mishandled the consequences of it afterward (she should have proactively notified her workplace sooner, and she also should have apologized – I’d have been mortified and groveling if something I did had consequences at this level!). I’m not excusing her. I am saying that the information from the daycare may not have been as obvious to her as is being assumed. It depends on the day care whether it was well-communicated what a significant issue norovirus is. (And if it wasn’t and she failed to research it, again, she owes huge apologies for that – but it’s possible.)

              1. neverjaunty*

                Yes, this. It isn’t just that she could have made a terrible judgment call – it’s that she doesn’t seem to appreciate that it WAS a terrible judgment call.

              2. Elizabeth West*

                and mishandled the consequences of it afterward

                This part is what I believe has got stuck in people’s craws. Yes, she screwed up. Yes, it’s possible someone else could have made this mistake. No, she is NOT owning her mistake but trying to wriggle out from under it. If she were my coworker, I’d be disinclined to trust her myself. And if management doesn’t at LEAST censure her for it, I’d probably wonder if I should be looking for a new job.

          3. Mike C.*

            It’s my experience that people who aren’t medical experts or scientists often needlessly disregard the advice of such experts when it comes to the formation of laws and other forms of public policy. Those policies may seem stiff in the case of a single individual, but you have to consider things like probabilities and risk of harm. Folks who aren’t trained in this aren’t very good at evaluating such things.

          4. AGirlCalledFriday*

            As a teacher and as someone who works with kids every day, I have to say I definitely do not think day cares are over the top regarding child illnesses.
            1. Children tend to have weaker immune systems. Children not only get sick more often but their illnesses can be more severe.
            2. Children will more easily spread illnesses to other children.

            I think it’s worse when it’s school and parents treat it like a daycare center. I’m not a babysitter, I’m an educator. This distinction is important because if your child is ill, not only are they spreading their illness to the other students in the classroom and to the other classrooms in the school, but also to myself and other teachers. They also are unable to concentrate and don’t learn anything and usually prevent other children from learning by being a distraction.

            I do sympathize and understand that not all parents can just take off of work when their child is ill. I don’t want to demonize parents who can’t just stay at home with their sick children, but I do think people in general downplay or misunderstand the role illness has in a classroom or daycare. A child having a low-grade fever might not be a big deal to you, but that fever could be a symptom of something worse or grow into some other type of illness, and now the children (and in a daycare, there will be infants) have that and they can die from it. Students in my classroom are more likely to have infant or very young siblings and those babies catch it when your sick child comes to my class too. I think as adults we are used to ‘toughing it out’ and many of us, particularly those who don’t have much exposure to children, forget or don’t realize how dangerous it can really be.

            1. PlainJane*

              This. So many illnesses, minor and serious, start out with a low-grade fever or other common symptoms. And plenty of people have compromised immune systems, asthma, or other conditions that make even minor illnesses not-so-minor. What frustrates me as a parent is that schools have strict policies about illness (rightly so, as you point out) but also have draconian attendance policies. I try to be responsible and keep my son home when he’s ill. Then I get a nastygram from the school saying he’s at risk of losing a semester’s worth of credits due to absenteeism. So I send him to school when he’s not feeling great but not contagious (a common occurrence–he has a chronic illness), and I get called to pick him up because he’s too sick to be at school.

          5. Amy the Rev*

            Also with young kiddos, their bodies go so haywire sometimes you miss that they have an actual illness. Maybe more for infants, but things like spitting up can be so common that you can miss an actual GI bug- I used to babysit for a ~year old baby and one time I came into work and the mom said she had spat up the night before but has been fine since. So we all assumed it was just a case of eating too much/being in a weird position/crying a lot/burping weird/etc. The next night I had sudden and horrible case of GI illness, sleeping on the bathroom floor and everything. Was fine 24 hours later, but by then my roommate had caught it. Also the father of the infant ended up with the same thing, so clearly it was a virus, but I never would’ve guessed that from hearing that a baby spit up one time in the night.

            1. Sprinkled with Snark*

              Add to that the toll even a “minor cold” takes on a child’s body. Kids with illness are crabby, whiny, lethargic, wipe their noses with their hands and sweaters, pick their noses, cough without covering their mouths, touch other kids’ things, put pencils in their mouths, don’t want to eat, and cry and throw temper tantrums, even children you think are too old to behave that way. Illness changes all of that. When I have a sick child in class, I’m not only the teacher, but the mom, the nurse, and the enforcer, trying to get Fergus to stay awake and take his head off the desk, or try to get Mary to stop crying when she can’t open the glue. Sick kids are completely exhausting and require almost 100 percent of my attention and energy. Teachers know when your kids are, or about to, get sick before the parents, yet very few parents will even listen or care when I tell them little Fergus has the beginnings of a cold.

              1. Amy The Rev*

                oh the coughing! I would get this baby’s (seemingly bi-monthly) cold every time she had it…I’d sit on a thursday, symptoms would arrive on saturday. It stopped happening almost entirely when I started wearing my glasses instead of contacts…when she coughed, it didn’t get in my eyes!

        4. Tuckerman*

          I used to work in daycare, and yes, we sent kids home a lot. We let them come back if they were improved (they couldn’t have a fever or be throwing up, and they had to have been on antibiotics for 24 hours for pink eye, etc.). I think most of us are used to taking off during the worst part of our illness (or keeping kids home during the worst part) but then returning when we are still less than 100%. The problem with Norovirus (and I didn’t know this until today) is that you’re still contagious for a few days after feeling better. So it doesn’t follow the normal arc of socially acceptable level of illness at work/school.

        5. BethRA*

          I get that not everyone understands how seriously norovirus is, but I have a hard time buying not understanding that someone who’s symptoms include vomiting and/or diarrhea is not someone who should be in the office.

          I’m not on the “hang her from the nearest yardarm” bandwagon, but bringing her kid in was completely obnoxious even if she didn’t fully grasp how serious norovirus can be.

          1. blushingflower*

            Yeah, I feel bad for a kid with norovirus being in an office that was probably boring and uncomfortable and having to use a communal office bathroom. Even if it weren’t terribly contagious and dangerous, if my kid had those kind of intestinal symptoms I would probably opt to keep them at home where they could be close to a bathroom and clean clothes.

        6. Amber T*

          I only heard of the norovirus 3ish years ago… when I caught it after it went around my office >.<

    4. J.B.*

      Norovirus was going around work (and around town) when I was pregnant and I caught it. Ugh, ugh, ugh it was awful. At least my doctor called in zofran for me. I probably went back to work too soon after because, pregnant! Needed sick days.

      It is so incredibly contagious that I can understand it going around an office from folks who didn’t know they were sick or started getting queasy at work. Bringing someone else in knowingly with norovirus is something else.

      All that being said, most viruses are contagious long before symptoms show. Honestly the employee could have passed the illness on her ownself due to being exposed by her child. The still sick child touching the food is beyond the pale.

    5. BPT*

      As someone who lives in a city without a car, this has really gotten me thinking about what I would do if I went to the doctor and was diagnosed with norovirus or something similar. There would be literally no way for me to not come into contact with people. Taking public transportation home from the doctor’s office would probably be the worst solution. Walking home (if even possible and in a sick state) would still put me into contact with others in a crowded city. Taking a cab or uber home seems like the only option, but that would still put me in contact with people like the driver and whoever rode after me probably.

      I don’t know what the option would be to not be accused of bad judgment.

      1. Emi.*

        I bet the office would give you a face mask, which might help some, but other than that, I don’t know what to do in a situation like that.

      2. Pineapple Incident*

        First, it’s so great that you’re even thinking about this, because many people don’t!

        A good option would be to ask whatever doctor’s office you went to for some hand sanitizer, gloves, and a face mask for public transit/walking so you can get home safely, then buy bleach wipes for your house. These things, along with bleach (for surfaces at home, especially if you live with people who can’t get sick), can be bought at most small drug stores too- consider wiping down your credit/debit cards with bleach wipes if you can, because cashiers are exposed to a lot of nasty stuff touching people’s money. Washing your hands often and not touching your face when you are diagnosed with something contagious are also very helpful if you stick to it!

        1. SarahKay*

          For what it’s worth, in the UK the advice for norovirus is generally not to go to the doctor at all.
          You have a virus, so they can’t help you and by the way, you’ve possibly just infected all the staff there and everyone else who was waiting to see a doctor. They recommend telephoning for advice particularly if there are other underlying conditions, or there are symptoms of severe dehydration, it lasts more than a few days, and a couple of other provisos.

      3. VroomVroom*

        From what I understand, the main spread of norovirus is unwashed hands of the infected person touching something. Then, an uninfected person touches it later. And then touches their face/mouth/eyes without thinking. Think about how many times you touch your face? I tend to be overly germaphobic and if I have to touch a public surface I make a point of balling my fist – so I don’t forget it’s unwashed – until I can hand sanitize OR wash my hands. But I’m sure I slip up sometimes.

    6. Anon-IBD-sufferer*

      As someone with Crohn’s (inflammatory bowel disease), I would be in your shoes too as far as not being able to trust someone’s judgement about this. Contracting norovirus from someone would likely put me in the hospital. No matter how accidental causing the outbreak was or non-malicious coworker’s intent was in bringing her son to the office, the contact her contagious son had with multiple surfaces and food sources is kind of ridiculous. If you bring a kid who is having diarrhea/vomiting to any shared space, you know it, and have to bleach surfaces accordingly and be very careful with food handling.

      I know I wouldn’t be able to trust this person again after all that. I’d definitely never eat anything she brought into the office kitchen, at the very least, and be sanitizing like mad if I ever had to shake her hand again or if she touched things on my desk.

  7. The Letter Writer*

    Thanks for printing my letter Alison.

    Normally people do not bring children into the office at all. There is no policy allowing it and I cannot recall anyone else ever doing it.

    No one is bullying her, I haven’t seen any and she has not brought it to my attention at all. I don’t know why she didn’t take sick time, we offer paid sick leave, don’t require a doctors note unless it’s for a long term illness and she would not have been penalized for using it. She had not taken a sick day for almost 2 years so she wasn’t on notice about using too much. She has not apologized or said anything besides that she didn’t think it was a big deal.

      1. The Letter Writer*

        It is good advice. I will be trying what you suggested. You always give advice. I agree with your second point especially and will be sure to frame any discussion about bringing sick children into the office with as much tact as possible. I’m sure given what’s happened that everyone will understand an office-wide memo.

      2. AD*

        Alison, how do you feel about “She has not apologized or said anything besides that she didn’t think it was a big deal.”
        I think that warrants reframing your thinking on how this employee is handling this situation.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I want to know more, like whether she realizes the impact it had on her coworker’s child. And now that she does understand it was a big deal, has that changed her thinking?

          2. Amber T*

            Oomph, yeah I read the original post as “she didn’t think it was a big deal at the time, but now realizes it was.” But if she STILL doesn’t think it’s that big of a deal… that raises a heck of a lot of red flags.

          3. AGirlCalledFriday*

            To me, this almost seems like bending over backwards for this employee. I totally understand that we don’t want to vilify every person who makes a mistake, and that sometimes mistakes do have real consequences. However, the Letter Writer clearly says that to this date and to her knowledge, the employee has neither apologized nor said anything else aside from the fact that she didn’t think it was a big deal. I don’t know what she knew or didn’t know about the virus, I don’t know why she didn’t take a sick day (previous toxic work environment? never sick? proud of a track record of never being sick?). I don’t know if she knew a child was immunocompromised. I don’t think any of this matters. I think the things that matter are here:
            1. No one brings kids into the office and the employee sought to hide her child from everyone else,
            2. When people started getting sick, she said nothing, and
            3. She has not profusely apologized or made any other comment except to be weirdly defensive about it all.

            I don’t think this woman is the devil incarnate, but I do think you are being far, far too easy on her. If she had asked permission and didn’t adequately convey the illness to management, if she brought her child in but let everyone know what was up as soon as she understood the symptoms were the same, if she had brought her child in, not realized everyone had caught her child’s illness, but when she was made aware was extremely concerned and apologetic I would completely agree that a stern conversation about this would be in order. I mean, hell, if she had asked permission to bring her kid in AND let everyone know what happened afterward but felt too uncomfortable to apologize or comment after I would still cut her slack.

            These three things, in my mind, makes me feel like she is untrustworthy or callous about the health of others. This is why I would be letting her go. If she was a rock star employee, I might have the very serious conversation with her while simultaneously preparing to let her go if I see something similar in the future, but not for someone who didn’t have a long track record of being amazing.

    2. Temperance*

      She sounds like a colossal jerk. She could have killed someone. At the very least, her stupidity landed a sick child in the hospital. I’m guessing she didn’t offer to cover the bill?

      2. AMG*

        The financial impact and the absolute horror that the mother of the child undergoing chemo must have felt. What a low-life. She should be groveling for forgiveness while she carries out a box of her stuff. What a complete jerk.

        1. Temperance*

          That’s how I feel about this. I contracted norovirus before I became immunocompromised, and it was hellish. Imagining the pain of that child with cancer, and his/her parent, is making me so angry.

        2. Ren*

          My thought is how much did her refusing to tell people it was noro make matters worse? If people had known immediately they would have been able to alter their habits and maybe not pass on the illness so widely. To me that seems far far worse that just bringing a kid in without permission and touching stuff, she knew what the kid had and told no one, doubling down on the awfulness for everyone :(

          1. Temperance*

            Oh this is a very good point. When I was exposed, the Department of Health sent us all an email saying that they were running tests but we probably all had norovirus, and then gave us a list of precautions to take. One of my coworkers exposed his mother because he didn’t read the email until a few days after exposure, but the rest of us were able to keep it contained.

      3. Anna*

        I’m a little confused about the covering of the bill part. It’s terrible that the kid’s family will have to foot this, but do you really think it’s reasonable to ask the woman to come up with many thousands of dollars herself? That seems…as ridiculous an idea as building a wall in your country and expecting another country to just hand over the cash to pay for it.

          1. fposte*

            How many people have you paid for lost work or doctor’s visits when they’ve caught colds from you?

            1. VroomVroom*

              If you cause a car accident due to your negligence and someone is injured/hospitalized as a result, you are liable for the costs.

              While we don’t have “sickness insurance” I feel like this woman should at least be offering to help in some way. Additionally, it COULD be a civil case against her? I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know but I feel like this is in so many ways wrong.

              If she’d brought in the kid and just told everyone – “hey Junior is here for a couple of hours because his daycare sent him home sick. I’m going to try to keep him contained but everyone please be vigilant with hand washing today!” I wouldn’t consider her negligent.

              1. fposte*

                Right, but I’m saying that we’re mighty quick to assign these costs to other people when we haven’t paid them ourselves.

                (And it really is highly unlikely to be a civil case against her.)

                1. VroomVroom*

                  I agree. I just feel like if this had happened because of something I had done (see two options, and continue thought below)
                  – whether I knowingly was aware that I was doing it and thought it wasn’t a big deal (which has happened before) and then realized it WAS a BIG DEAL later when I realized the scale of repurcussions it’d had for someone else
                  – or I had no idea the severity of a seemingly trivial action that I didn’t even pause to consider twice it was so mundane, but it caused severe repercussions for someone else of a similar scale to this
                  I would feel absolutely horrible. And offer to do whatever possible. That may not go as far as ‘let me pay your hospital bills’ but it may be how can I help? Can I bring food? Can I cover for you while you’re out sick with YOUR child? And I would likely give a gift of some significant monetary value.

                  But, I’m not a self-absorbed jerk like a lot of people in this world seem to be. I swear it seems like some people go about life with their heads stuck up their butts and have no idea the problems they cause everyone else – whether they don’t know or don’t care is irrelevant (I’m looking at you, slow drivers in the left lane)

    3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      If she still doesn’t think this is a big deal and hasn’t apologized, she is monumentally deficient in judgment, ethics, or information, or all three. You absolutely need to have a very, very, serious talk with her, because she affected multiple lives and cost at least one family a significant amount of money for an unnecessary hospital visit.

      1. Newby*

        She really really needs to understand that she seriously messed up. If she is still saying that she doesn’t think it is a big deal then maybe she should be fired. I think that letting someone go over one mistake is extreme, but if they don’t even understand why it was wrong, you can’t trust their judgment anymore.

        2. K.*

          Agree. I’m seeing red over this, especially the part about the child undergoing chemo. It would be one thing if she were completely contrite – she’d still need a VERY serious talking-to, but at least she’d understand the gravity of her mistake. But she does all this – very literally nearly kills someone and triggers a public health investigation and basically shrugs it off? Fired.

      2. Tuxedo Cat*

        I assume the public health worker would’ve explicitly told her that what she did was dangerous, correct? I was willing to believe she might’ve thought this was akin to the flu (although it still is irresponsible to bring in sick children), but if the public health worker didn’t get through to her, that’s really concerning

        1. BeautifulVoid*

          I think I’d be equally pissed if she brought in a kid with the flu, and I bet the end results (colleagues taking time off, kid undergoing chemo hospitalized, illness spread to the elderly) would be the same.

      3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Or she’s terrified. I would err on the side of figuring out what’s going on in her head before jumping to conclusions.

    4. Leatherwings*

      The fact that she hasn’t taken a sick day in over two years is significant to me. Someone asked above what she was so afraid of job-wise, but if she’s never really taken sick days it probably just wasn’t on her mind that that was even an option. That’s not a good excuse, but probably helps explain why she made that choice.

      1. the_scientist*

        I have pretty much endless sympathy for parents who are stuck between the rock and hard place of having a sick child and being penalized for taking sick time or being unable to afford to take time of, but it doesn’t sound like any of those things is true for this woman. There are some people who believe their work and their role to be so essential to the functioning of the company that they can’t possibly take any time off- maybe she is one of those people? Alternatively, maybe she believes that taking a sick day should be reserved for when you’re actually flat-on-your-back-can’t-get-out-of-bed levels of sick and since *she* wasn’t sick she figured it was okay for her to bring her still-sick child to work.

        Regardless, this is such monumentally poor judgement on her part. I’m a public health professional, and my head is spinning over this. If this person was my employee, I’d be having a come-to-Jesus talk with them, for sure, and I’d seriously be considering if this employee showed poor judgement in any other area of her employment and whether she had the common sense and good judgement to continue in her role. The fact that she’s seemingly shrugging it off as not that big of a deal is even more concerning because she’s compounding her initial poor judgement with an inability to evaluate her actions and admit an error.

        1. Leatherwings*

          I totally agree that this is poor judgement, and she obviously should’ve taken the kid home. I guess I just don’t know if the employee is shrugging it off because the LW hasn’t had the serious conversation with her yet.

          And again, none of this excuses the poor judgement, but I can see how it came to be given that the employee doesn’t seem to really take sick days. That’s just background info that can inform the serious conversation.

          1. the_scientist*

            I guess (and this is my public health professional bias here) I’m wondering how this person doesn’t see it as a big deal despite the fact that their local public health unit had to come and do an outbreak investigation and an infection control person sat down and interviewed her and likely told her that she was the start of this outbreak. When an outside agency has to sit you down to discuss the consequences of your actions at your workplace, I’d think that would lead any reasonable person to realize that they’d made a pretty serious error. Instead this woman said she didn’t think a few hours was that big of a deal. That being said, I think it’s premature to fire her just for this.

            1. Leatherwings*

              There are quite a few posts here with other people saying they wouldn’t have recognized it as a huge deal either. She SHOULD have recognized it as a big deal (or at least googled it), sure. But I really don’t see anything in the letter about how she’s totally blown this off or not taken it seriously yet. OP presumably wasn’t even in the room with the public health official when she had this talk, and OP hasn’t had the serious talk yet. I think people are assigning some reactions to the employee that we have no evidence the employee had.

              1. Amber T*

                To be fair, the norovirus had been going around my office for about a week before I caught it, and up to that point, all I thought was “oh, everyone is catching this stomach bug.”

            3. TootsNYC*

              well, that’s after the fact, of course.

              But yes, it should be a cue that she needs to apologize sincerely to everyone.
              She may be too embarrassed, and that’s something the OP / Letter Writer can guide her through.

            4. Liane*

              Not worked in Public Health but do have some graduate coursework in it, so I agree with you that Public Health interviews should have given her a clue or 4.
              BUT, alas, there are Way. Too. Many people who blow off Public Health, Doctors, Scientists, etc., the way you and I would blow off a random claim that eating raw organic cycads* every day will prevent you from dying of anything, ever.
              I am still not on Team Fire Her Now!, but am definitely leaning towards that Serious Talk including “Do you not even realize NOW after Public Health gave you their talk, what a terrible mistake you made? I don’t care whether you took them seriously, but you better take seriously that you are to never bring your sick child into work again, or you will be let go Right Then.”

              *organic or not, these are poisonous

              1. Amber T*

                I think this is the path to go. Drive it home that this is a BIG DEAL, she SHOULD NOT have done this, and she SHOULD NOT EVER do this again Then depending on the response is the next course of action. If it’s still “not a big deal” or she doesn’t get the fuss… I’d keep a very careful eye on her.

            5. Sadsack*

              I wonder if she didn’t think it was a big deal before bringing her kid in, as opposed to not understanding that it was a very big deal afterward, particularly when being interviewed by the health dept. I have to assume that she realized the impact of her actions at that point. It isn’t clear to me, but I may be overlooking something. OP needs to have the conversation and make sure her employee gets it now.

            6. Mike C.*

              I’m really, really frustrated at how these medical/public health professionals are being written off and ignored.

              1. Leatherwings*

                I don’t think they’re being written off at all. I now fully understand how serious norovirus is, which is a really good thing. But here’s the thing: The mom made a huge error in judgement, but there’s not a whole ton of info here to indicate that she hasn’t learned from it. She was talked to by a public health official, but that doesn’t mean she realizes how people at work were affected.

                Her manager hasn’t had a serious talk with her yet to guide her through that information. That’s why OP wrote in. Nobody is ignoring the medical professionals here who are saying it’s a big deal. People ARE saying that it’s possible mom didn’t know how big a deal it was. And just because she likely understands now doesn’t mean she knows about how seriously it’s affected her workplace.

                1. Lora*

                  Okie dokie. Here’s the deal:

                  If the government authority with extremely thin budgets and underpaid workers and not half enough resources to carry out the mission they’ve been charged with, takes time out of their overwhelmingly busy day to speak with you, when for lesser issues such as bubonic plague (not kidding, it’s in prairie dogs in the southwest and California) they would simply speak with the doctors personally and take notes, it’s a VERY big deal indeed. It’s not a social call, it’s not outreach to encourage people to eat their vegetables, it is the thing they do to decide if they should stick you in a big plastic scrubbable room all alone for a month.

                  There are legal provisions in every state to enforce quarantine, your Constitutional rights be damned. The government officials who decide whether you need to be quarantined are speaking to you nicely. Their next step will be telling you that you aren’t even allowed to go get your mail from your mailbox because you are too contagious.

                  I’ve been quarantined. It’s not fun, even in the comfort of your own home, and you run out of Netflix and internet after a week. Thankfully I live in an area where I can have groceries delivered, and I had a mini-fridge set up outdoors that got disinfected after I collected my delivery. And that was when I happened to be working with something highly infectious for which most of the population is not vaccinated; I was itchy and slightly feverish and grumpy, but otherwise felt pretty OK. It’s way less fun when you are really horribly ill, because you can’t even have your mom/sister/friend come over to make you soup or anything. You just kinda drag yourself between the bathroom and bed, subsisting on crackers, gatorade and ice cream. Or so my colleagues tell me.

                2. TL -*

                  @Lora
                  Yeah, you know a lot more about the public health department than most people do. We don’t know what the employee knows about the situation/consequences (does she know 2 immunocompromised people got sick?); we don’t know how she reacted after the health department talked to her, or if she realized it’s a big deal and not something they did to everyone whose kid had norovirus.

                  And she’s almost 100% not up on the bubonic plague in California prairie dogs. So she didn’t know. Sometimes people don’t. Sometimes people don’t know because we, as a society, don’t have good methods to teach them (hi! leaving to go to an international school to learn science outreach because it was literally the only option!), and when we find out they didn’t know, we castigate them for being ignorant and stupid and make darn sure that they never want to spend any more time ever in the company of people who can help them learn.

                  She knows now; we don’t know what her reaction is now that she knows, but that’s for the OP to suss out.

              2. NaoNao*

                I am frustrated too, but I understand why. There is *so* much information and “noise” out there about health. Articles, FB posts, blogs, memes, shows, news, etc. There’s also many articles and listicles that have things like “10 most ignorant things said about bodies” and there’s things like “Why don’t you just stand up after sex to avoid getting pregnant? Easy!” and so on!
                Even when offered a plethora of easy to find, easy to read medical facts, many people remain confused (at best) about basic biology. Let alone incubation rates and infection risk for a less-known illness.
                People here in the States seem to have (a perhaps unearned) pride in individualism and making decisions on their own, avoiding a “nanny state” and using their “gut” to find the truth. No amount of stern lectures, google searches, warnings, or quite frankly, even consequences of a severe nature are enough to shake some people out of the mindset “I know best.”
                That’s what I think happened here. This woman felt that, for whatever reason, she knew best.
                And there is a lot of support for that viewpoint out there, like “as a mom, you know your child best” (diaper commercial) or “you know what your baby needs” (baby food ad) or what have you.
                Also, as a side note, I recently babysat for my 2.5 year old nephew and I was in an exhausted daze after like an hour. I thought I could get some work done here and there…nope. It took every ounce of focus and concentration to keep him alive! I’m NOT saying what she was doing was okay, but once he was in the office, if she turned her back for 2 minutes…hello infection city!

          2. Temperance*

            I’m honestly baffled at her behavior. She brought a child with norovirus into work, and then only admitted her misdeed when public health officials interviewed her. It seems like she might have been trying to cover her tracks, but honestly, my take on this is skewed because I see it as such a massive violation that I am doubting the employee’s character.

        2. Jadelyn*

          “The fact that she’s seemingly shrugging it off as not that big of a deal is even more concerning because she’s compounding her initial poor judgement with an inability to evaluate her actions and admit an error.”

          This is what’s taking it from “What the hell is wrong with you?” to “Nope. Out. Now. Get out. Fired.” for me. Initial ignorance, I can understand if not necessarily excuse. Poor judgment in bringing the kid in, deserves a Serious Conversation at the least. But the fact that after a PUBLIC HEALTH INVESTIGATION and someone’s kid who has cancer being HOSPITALIZED, she still seems to be treating it like “*shrug* nbd, whatever”? That scares the bejeezus out of me and I would have absolutely no faith in her ability to recognize and learn from her own screwups in any situation anymore.

            1. Anna*

              Because this has nothing to do with the actual work she produces and if she weren’t a good worker, that would be why you wouldn’t trust her for work things.

              1. PlainJane*

                Fair point. I do think it’s natural to wonder, though, if someone who’s this cavalier about something so serious wouldn’t be equally cavalier about other work-related things. I don’t know how much poor judgment and self-centeredness are compartmentalized vs. more general traits. Were I the manager, I’d consider her entire track record. If she had been a stellar employee, that would suggest that this is an aberration rather than an indication that she has generally poor judgment.

      2. A Plain-Dealing Villain*

        Actually, people who never take leave are a big red flag for fraud. OP should look over this person’s work carefully, especially if they are in a finance role. Honestly, employers should have a talk with anyone who isn’t taking leave, because it also hurts productivity.

        1. Leatherwings*

          The fraud thing is a huge huge leap. But I agree that OP should impress upon the employee that sick days can and should be used.

          1. Jenna*

            Well, it’s a Venn diagram, and although the group of people who never take leave includes lots of people who are just healthy and not interested in vacation, it also includes people who don’t want other people having any reason for checking their work.
            In turn, that smaller group has people who just don’t like being checked up on, and also a group that has done something shady that they can hide better if no one touches that task.

            1. Leatherwings*

              Yeah, I hear that not everyone who never takes sick days is committing fraud, but given that there’s no indication of that concern from OP, I think it just adds an extra layer of unnecessary and unhelpful speculation.

          2. Blue Anne*

            Honestly, it is something we’re taught to look for as auditors. If an employee who has enough access to finances to be able to commit fraud and hasn’t had any time off in years, that’s a red flag. It’s not necessarily enough to require more audit work on its own but if there are any concerns at all, it has happened that the employee has been told to take holiday during the audit, with very little or no warning.

            1. Ren*

              When I worked in the banking industry it was a requirement to take several weeks leave back to back because most fraud would start to smell by then and someone else would have touched on your work enough to spot inconsistencies. It was a really good idea and did catch some people out while I was there. But that was time off not sick leave

            2. Natalie*

              Except all we know is that the person hasn’t taken a sick day, not that they’ve never taken any time off.

              1. Blue Anne*

                Oh, totally. I’m just saying it’s not actually a crazy thing to think of, it’s actually something auditors do look at. That doesn’t mean it’s accurate in this case, though.

            3. Poppy*

              Yup, I once worked for a small accounting firm and they required employees to take at least one 2-week vacation per year specifically to discourage/catch fraud. It helped they also had a generous vacation policy, so people were never upset about that requirement.

        2. AMG*

          It is true–that is one of the markers of someone committing fraud. Is not conviction-worthy but should be looked at.

          1. JB (not in Houston)*

            Whoa, that’s a huge leap for just not taking sick days. Over the years I’ve worked with lots of people who rarely take sick days because they don’t get sick, or because they feel like it makes them look bad, or for other reasons besides fraud.

            1. AMG*

              It’s just one data point and a well-established marker. Doesn’t mean everyone who doesn’t take sick days is clearly a criminal, just something to check and see if she has any of the other markers.

              1. JB (not in Houston)*

                Frankly, it sounds like people are just trying to vilify her further. She did this thing, she is clearly a garbage human being, so we better check to make sure she’s not also committing fraud. I’m not buying it.

                2. neverjaunty*

                  But this isn’t “she never takes time off”. It’s that she never takes sick days. Those really aren’t the same thing.

                3. Mike C.*

                  It’s a common issue in some industries, like finance. The folks making those comments work in industries where that’s a huge issue which is why they’re taking it seriously. It’s the same reason I’m focusing on health and safety, because that’s a serious issue in my industry.

                5. JB (not in Houston)*

                  @Mike C I’m not saying that this isn’t a common practice in some industries. I’m saying that the math people are doing here to get to “you need to check she’s not committing fraud because she doesn’t take *sick* days” is a leap, and people saying it should happen are people who seem to thing she’s a low-life human being, and therefore capable of anything.

                6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  @AMG, it’s not well-established across all industries. I really feel like people are just digging for any excuse to confirm that they think this woman is some sociopathic degenerate.

        3. Susan C.*

          Seconding Leatherwings – I know what you’re talking about, but we don’t actually know whether she’s never taken any vacation either.

        4. BPT*

          Whoa, huge leap. First, OP said that she hadn’t taken a sick day, not that she hadn’t taken vacation or anything. Secondly, there’s really just no reason to go there in the context of this question.

      3. Emmie*

        Me too! It is a red flag for me.
        • Is it a personality issue? Some folks are perfectionists, martyrs, feel guilty, or have trouble making the “do I call off” judgement call. Maybe she feels that only she can do the work; likes the reward for doing things despite tough circumstances; or these habits are ingrained from a prior employer.
        • There is an element of sneakiness about keeping the child in her office. If no one else brings a child in, she has to be aware of that culture. How did she not know that?
        • I would be especially tuned in if she does work that no one else does, like she is the only payroll, accountant or bookkeeper. When someone in that role feels like they cannot take a day off in two years, I should at least be doing some kind of audit to ensure that those books are consistent with our practices. And also ensuring that she has a well-trained back up in her absence.
        • Is she worried about job security? Does her company offer paid sick days? How are others treated when there’s a sick day?
        She could have been genuinely unaware of these things, but I would investigate these other issues too.

        2. Jesmlet*

          Now I’m feeling super insecure about the fact that I haven’t taken any days off yet. I’ve been at my new job about 10 months and haven’t used any sick or vacation days. But then again I haven’t gotten sick and because of certain circumstances, haven’t taken a vacation yet this year. Hopefully no one considers this a red flag for me… Oh well

            1. Jesmlet*

              Lol thanks for the encouragement. Planning a family vaca for July as we speak but that’s a while away and there’s no reason before that to take any time. Meanwhile I’m sitting in an empty office (literally) and my boss didn’t even bother putting time in… he’s just not here. Must’ve had too much to drink last night with the Superbowl.

              1. Marillenbaum*

                Just because you aren’t going on a specific vacation doesn’t mean there’s no reason to take time off before then. Maybe pick a random Wednesday-Thursday and give yourself a treat! Go to the movies, sleep in, binge-watch something on Netflix. It can be remarkably restorative to have a day off for no “good” reason other than wanting one.

          2. NK*

            If you’re not showing up to the office sick, no one is going to think twice about the fact that you haven’t taken any sick days. Even not taking a vacation day in your first 10 months on the job isn’t all that unusual (though I’m a big proponent of using your vacation).

            I think OP just brought up the lack of taking sick days to make the point that there seems to be no reason the employee couldn’t have taken one.

          3. Emmie*

            It’s always hard to figure that first PTO out when you’re new in the company. It helps that you’re planning and probably have already requested time off for July. Enjoy your well deserved vacation!

          4. Emmie*

            And to be fair, the “red flag” might mean that I am doing something wrong as a director – not you as an employee.

      4. Jessesgirl72*

        But surely, since she has worked there for at least two years, she has seen other people take sick days and not be penalized for them!

      5. SittingDuck*

        “The fact that she hasn’t taken a sick day in over two years is significant to me”

        OP, I know you say she wouldn’t be penalized for using sick leave – but I wonder if she clearly knows this? Since she hasn’t taken any sick days in over 2 years – it would seem to me that she either a)isn’t aware she has them to use b) isn’t clear on the policy that her child being sick can count as a ‘sick’ day for her c) feels she will be penalized for using it.

        While it may be clear to you in a managerial/HR? role that people are not penalized for using sick days I wonder if she previously had a job where sick days where heavily discouraged and that is the mindset she is currently in still?

        Not that this is an excuse for what she did – I covet the small amount of sick/paid leave I have and do try to find ways around using it when I am healthy but my child is sick (such as finding someone else to watch him who doesn’t have kids of their own….NOT bringing him to work….) and its particularly hard when a child is ‘too sick’ to go to school, but showing no symptoms at all (last year my son had a few episodes of ‘nervous induced vomiting’ that would occur once per day – he was not ‘sick'(in the terms of carrying an illness) just having anxiety issues and throwing up due to it, but the rule at schools is 24 hours after throwing up before you can return to school, it was incredibly frustrating to have to use my sick/vacation time from work to spend the day at home with my active, healthy and capable child, I exhausted my sick/vacation time due to this which is very frustrating as a parent)

        It sounds like this child was up and about and not displaying symptoms of being sick – but the parent was stuck by the school rules of when the child can return – so again, not excusing the behavior, but as a Mom myself I can see a bit of the thought process of ‘oh well he’s fine, he’ll just hang out in my office and color/read while I work’. She may not have known he was still contagious even. (That being said I would never bring my child to work without first asking management…..and I would actually never even ask because I already know that its just not a thing that is allowed)

        And – just to play a bit of devils advocate – I feel it is also possible that the norovirus came from someone else in the office – anyone else could have caught it a number of different places and brought it in before they showed symptoms themselves around the same time this boy was in the office. The thing with these viruses is its pretty hard to trace the exact origin – it totally could have come from the child – but I feel that its a pretty hard thing to prove (perhaps i’m wrong on this though?) that no-one else may have also brought it into the office.

        Correlation does not mean causation…..

          1. Lady Blerd*

            SittingDuck is correct. You can be an asymptomatic carrier, like a lot of communicable diseases.

            1. Anna*

              My grandmother carried TB. She wasn’t contagious, she didn’t give it to anyone, but she sure did carry it around. My friend is a nurse and has been vaccinated against MMR a bazillion times, but every time they do her test thing (starts with a T) she shows no antibodies, so they stick her again. The human body can be a super weird thing.

              1. Natalie*

                The infamous Typhoid Mary was almost certainly an asymptomatic carrier of typhoid. Given the time period, it’s one of the reasons they eventually had to quarantine her – she didn’t feel sick, so she didn’t believe that she was making other people sick.

                1. Rater Z*

                  There is a video on You Tube about her, which I saw just a few weeks ago. They almost had to hogtie her to get her out to the island so that she wasn’t around anyone else who could get it (other than other patients who were also quarantined for other reasons). She was a family cook who had no idea she had typhoid and didn’t believe she might have it or pass it on. She wouldn’t even believe Public Health. She kept disappearing and finding new families to work for.

                2. Rater Z*

                  My error…she never had typhoid but was definitely a a carrier for it. They had found her because a scientist was checking out a theory that someone could pass it even though they never actually had been sick from it.

              2. VroomVroom*

                I’m a carrier for Mono (kissing disease). I’ve never gotten it, that I know of, but I gave it to my now-husband when we first started dating. He came down with it, and I was all worried I’d get it – you’re apparently contagious for a few weeks before you’re symptomatic, so I could easily have already had it and not be sick yet – and so I went and got a blood test to see if I had it. The blood test confirmed that not only was I NOT sick, but that I was a carrier.

                I learned that apparently only 33% of people who get mono ever get symptoms. If you never had mono, and you’re now an adult, you probably got exposed to it at some point and just never got symptoms. Meaning, you could be a carrier of it (not all people who get it are carriers, and you’re not always contagious it can just flare up). Funnily enough, my older brother and younger sister came down with it at the same time about a year later – again, strong possibility it came from me. My brother was 26 and my sister was 18. Her case was much more mild – bad symptoms at first but didn’t last terribly long. He was sick as a dog for about 4 months.

                Given that I’m my husband’s first girlfriend, the running joke is now that I gave him mono.

        2. Artemesia*

          If the kid had the illness but had not been ‘clear’ for 24 hours or whatever he would still be very contagious — norovirus hangs around in the stools for a couple of weeks at least, after symptoms have abated.

    5. Grits McGee*

      LW, does your direct report know about all the issues her coworkers have had (ie, the child who was hospitalized, the grandmother, the number of family members of employees who were infected)? If she does’t, I think when you talk to her this would be good information for her to know, not necessarily to browbeat her, but so that she knows the full cost to the business and her coworkers.

    7. Tuckerman*

      Can parents use sick time for their children though? At my job, you can only use 5 days of sick time per year for a child. Then you need to use vacation time.

    9. Cerberus*

      There’s definitely an overdue conversation here. You need to find out exactly why she felt she couldn’t use a sick day to care for a sick child. Is that not the purpose of sick leave? Does she understand that? If she can’t understand that the company wants her to use that leave or if she thinks that it’s acceptable to NOT use it and bring her child in, then I think you have a huge red flag waving at you. It would definitely be time to question her judgement. But it is also entirely possible that something previously has been said or done to make her think that taking sick leave isn’t really a good thing. If she can justify that, then I think there needs to be some wiggle room given to her for that aspect of the issue.

      However, the most concerning aspect to me is her utter disregard for the consequences of her poor choices. If she cannot understand why this was a big deal, then I think it shows a major character flaw that may prevent her from working well with others. If she cannot have compassion for the coworker whose child is hospitalized because of this virus or the coworker whose parents in the retirement home are suffering then I question her ability to make sound judgments on any sort of work. That may certainly not be applicable in your industry, but if she interacts with the public or with clients, that lack of compassion may be problematic. For goodness sake, the Public Health Department was investigating the outbreak! That’s a big deal. If she can’t recognize that as a big deal and agree to make changes that reflect that (by apologizing and taking leave when needed), then she is not a good fit for that job.

    10. Bonky*

      She did this awful thing in the first place, knowing it was against the rules, knowing that office policy gave her an easy way to deal with the problem (take sick leave).

      She compounded it by lying by omission until the authorities got involved – she kept quiet when other people in the office started showing the same symptoms.

      Even after the episode, she will not acknowledge that she did anything wrong, and minimises what happened.

      She will not apologise.

      In my organisation, that’s gross insubordination. We’d fire her. And I promise you that my organisation is *not* one that’s quick to dismiss people.

      1. Artemesia*

        Most people try to cover up their misdeeds. I heard of a case where there was staph transmitted during surgery and an investigation was undertaken to see which doctors were carrying the germs; several of them dosed themselves up with antibiotics so that they could not be identified as possible carriers.

        Hiding one’s sins is pretty common behavior especially when it has a big impact on others.

    11. eplawyer*

      Hasn’t taken a sick day in 2 years? She’s afraid to use it. Even though she has it, she is afraid what will happen if she does. So she only thought “I can’t take sick leave because it’s bad to use it.” The rest then kind of happened.

      1. Tuxedo Cat*

        It could be that but it could be she just never had a reason to. Up until this past Christmas, I never used any sick leave until I found myself sick with the flu. I have been at my job for over 2 years.

        I know she has a kid, but her circumstances in the past might’ve allowed for her spouse, the grandparents, or someone like that to watch the child if the kid was sick.

        The best thing for the OP to do is to ask why she brought in the kid.

    12. Amazed*

      Does she know you offer paid sick leave? If she hasn’t taken a day in 2 years she might not have been familiar enough with the policy.

    13. kb*

      LW, if you’re updating policy or sending out a company/dept wide email, I’d mention that staying home when a child/family member/ cohabitee has a severe, contagious illness (and I’d provide examples) is encouraged. Because while the the employee bringing in a child she knew had the illness increases the “what was she thinking” factor and made the outbreak larger and more certain, the employee herself could have brought the illness from her sick child. I’d even mention that there are immunocompromised people (not naming them) in the community for whom exposure would be dire so everyone fromantic his point forward concretely knows how big of a deal this is.

    14. Observer*

      Your email should be tactful, but crystal clear.

      In your conversation with her, in private, though, you need to not worry too much about tact. You need to be clear about the policy on sick time, the policy on children in the office, and the need to be minimally considerate of other people. You also need to make is clear to her that this IS a big deal – tell her in completely clear terms what some of the known consequences of her behavior were.

      Here’s the thing – Allison’s advice assumes that your conversation will have some results. You need to think about what to do if it doesn’t. If she still insists that what she did was no big deal you have a real problem on your hands. At minimum, I would be looking very very hard at the rest of her work, and the way she interacts with other people. Not as a punishment, but because she has shown that she cannot admit that she messed up. That’s a problem all on its own.

      Lots of luck, and please do update.

    15. Oh no, not again*

      I’m dismayed by some of the comments. At what point is a person culpable for someone else health and well-being? Where is the responsibility of the caretakers in practicing excellent hygiene to prevent those in their care from getting ill? We come across all sorts of pathogens in day to day life- even if you show no symptoms, you can be a carrier for an illness that can be devastating to someone immunocompromised. Do we all wear masks in public? No, we don’t. I myself had an infection for a long time before I was diagnosed. I thought I had IBS. Turns out I had something infectious that needed treatment. I was upfront with work as soon as I was diagnosed, but what then had I passed it on to someone else before I was diagnosed and they blamed me for not getting my symptoms checked out sooner? Risk is everywhere–caretakers should exercise utmost caution and workplaces should make it crystal clear what policy is regarding sickness and sick time. Have mandatory meetings regarding illness and when one should stay home and for fudge sake, do not bring your kids to work! The workplace in question shoulders some of the responsibility here–communication matters. Make sure employees know how serious this issue is.

      1. Anne Marie*

        How on earth is the workplace responsible? These employees are adults and shouldn’t have to be told everything they can and can’t do. You don’t let a super infectious sick child to work and let them get into the food.

      1. Elizabeth H.*

        She may not have brought him to the potluck but it is not like he is a wild animal who once introduced into a building, there’s no reasonable way to control his movements thereafter. Especially when it’s an office culture when nobody brings their kid to work like this and you are not really supposed to have your kid at work, particularly a sick kid, you would have thought she would have been extremely careful to supervise him very closely. Yes mistakes can happen but it’s legitimate for mistakes to have consequences, that’s why we think of them as mistakes and not “ok things to happen.”

      2. MashaKasha*

        It kind of does: “he came out of her office because there was a potluck and he saw the cake and the food on a table by the coffee maker. It was at this point that she was found out (for bringing him to work) and was asked to take him home. But he had already been in the office for several hours and had been in contact with food from the potluck.” How could he have seen the potluck food, and come into contact with the potluck food, if he hadn’t been at the potluck?

        1. SimonTheGreyWarden*

          I read that as, he took himself out of the office because he saw food; not that Mom necessarily took him out to the potluck, since mom had snuck him into work in the first place. If there was potluck food out, but no one watching it at that moment, he could have gone dish to dish, touching spoons, licking them, etc. before anyone noticed.

    3. cncx*

      yes. i generally have a lot of sympathy for parents who sneak their kids in, especially in the US…but the lack of judgment in letting a kid with norovirus at a potluck is what sealed the deal for me.

  9. Temperance*

    I was exposed to norovirus at a work event a few years ago. It was awful. I was incredibly ill for a few days, but I was lucky – many others at the event ended up in the hospital.

    I probably would have a very hard time dealing with this person. Your kid is sick, you know what norovirus is because of how seriously the daycare treated the outbreak, and at the very least, you don’t keep your germy kid away from communal food? That’s absolutely disgusting at best.

    1. Kyrielle*

      To be fair, daycare treats *everything* seriously…and they don’t always know it’s norovirus. There’s a “stomach bug” going around, your kid gets and gets sent home, and you really don’t know if it’s norovirus or something else. (Did the assistant confirm the daycare said ‘norovirus’ or did they say something else?)

      I once had a child who had to be out for an afternoon and all of the following day because he was fussy and unhappy and “had a fever” when they checked his temperature. He was unusually warm when I picked him up…he had taken a large blanket for nap time (because his usual one was dirty) and instead of putting one layer over him, they had wrapped him up in it so he had like three layers of plush fleece all around him, in a well-heated room! When they determined he was “sick” they kept him bundled up and cuddled him. I immediately removed him from it, and within less than five minutes he felt to be at a normal temperature. Within ten we were home, I took his temperature, and it was totally normal. But, he was still out a whole day, because regulations, and he’d had a “fever”.

      Day care’s level of taking things seriously is such that you really can’t actually count on it being serious when they act like it is, IMX. Understandably, because no one really wants an illness like norovirus or pinkeye to spread everywhere, and you can’t always judge what you’re dealing with until it’s too late – but parents do have to make a best-guess based off what they know and “day care took it seriously” is…a pretty weak data point.

      I would never bring my kid, sick with anything, into the office. But I can see where a parent might not have had – at that moment – all the data. Did she know it was norovirus specifically? Did she know what norovirus is?

      1. Helen*

        OP said that the daycare called this employee’s assistant and told them her son needed to be picked up due to the outbreak. The employee also admitted that she knew the daycare had a norovirus outbreak but that she brought him into work anyways. So the facts show she knew it was norovirus and brought her son into work anyway.

        2. Evan Þ*

          But did she know how serious norovirus is? Upthread, we’ve got several people saying they had to Google it. Myself, I didn’t have the least idea until I happened to learn it from my grandma just last year.

          1. Jesmlet*

            That’s part of the point though, when your vulnerable loved one gets exposed to an illness with something that has a very specific name, why wouldn’t you just google it to find out how dangerous it is? I find it so hard to believe that she didn’t look it up. Either she did and she ignored how serious it was, or she figured it wouldn’t matter. Either way, bad judgment.

              1. Emi.*

                Whoops–I was remembering that there was an outbreak at the daycare, not that this specific child had it. But still, if my kid had a disease I didn’t know about, I’d check Wikipedia (“The disease is usually self-limiting, and severe illness is rare. Although having norovirus can be unpleasant, it is not usually dangerous and most who contract it make a full recovery within two to three days.”) or the CDC (“You can become infected with norovirus by accidentally getting stool or vomit from infected people in your mouth.”).

                1. Jesmlet*

                  I get it… I’m not saying go crazy and stick your kid in a bubble, but because you work with other people who may have elderly or newborns at home or otherwise in their lives, I just think bringing any kid to work like that is dangerous especially given the type of illness it is. It’s like bringing your kid to work when they have the flu. Most people recover just fine, but it’s very dangerous for a certain percentage of the population and why risk exposing them to that?

                2. Emi.*

                  Oh, I definitely think it’s inappropriate to take a sick kid to work. I just don’t think it’s so beyond the pale that someone wouldn’t think noro was particularly bad as far as sickness goes—even if you google it, you might not realize how serious it is.

                3. Observer*

                  Of course bringing your sick kid to work is a REALLY bad idea. But, the comparison to flu is apt here. Most people would NOT see a flu as something to be all that worried about. And, that’s despite all of the publicity around the issue.

              2. Jesmlet*

                Okay, totally your prerogative. If someone at my kid’s daycare told me another kid brought in a highly contagious disease, at the very least I’d be curious enough to look up the symptoms so I could watch out for them, just out of an abundance of caution… but that’s just me.

                1. Emi.*

                  Well, I’d probably look it up casually when I got home. When I wrote that comment, I thought the daycare had sent everyone home because another kid was sick. In that case, I wouldn’t bother looking it up before I took the kid to sit in my office, if that was my plan (although it wouldn’t be). But it turns out that’s not applicable here.

              3. Temperance*

                I’ll admit that I’m a germaphobe, but I’ve seen this response throughout the thread and I find it surprising. I would research the disease before making any other moves. Otherwise, how do I know how contagious it is, whether we need to see a doctor, if any OTC meds might help, etc.? I wouldn’t just grab a kid who is vomiting or has vomited and bring him to my office.

                1. kb*

                  Yeah, I’m an avid Googler of all things, so it surprises me that someone wouldn’t Google something they didn’t know, but I think it’s just as likely that this woman *thought* she knew what norovirus is and was wrong. Because it’s been found at a lot of food establishments lately (Chipotle), people assume it’s food poisoning and not contagious. That’s completely incorrect, but I could see why someone would think that and therefore think it’s no biggie to come to work (bringing a child to work still strikes me as odd, but I don’t have kids and my workplace just isn’t a place for kids due to the nature of our work).

            2. Observer*

              Your reaction is actually out of the norm. What’s more many doctors actually discourage parents from googling illnesses. So, acting like a person is an evil and neglectful parent because they don’t react the same way you do, is just not reasonable.

          2. KM*

            This. I’ve never heard the term “norovirus” before this post, and, based on what people are describing, I guess it’s a lot more serious that what I think of when I hear “stomach flu.” I can easily imagine thinking that this was no more serious or contagious than a regular cold and that the risk to anyone else would be minimal if she just kept him in her office for a few hours. That… seems like a reasonable thing to think to me, if we leave out the part where she’s not supposed to bring her kid to work with her at all.

            1. Artemesia*

              Norovirus IS stomach flu — it is one of the most common viruses that cause these symptoms. Most people are sort of okay in 48 hours or less — but it can really raise havoc with those with weak immune systems the very young and old and people with chronic illnesses.

      2. kbeers0su*

        I once got a call like this. It was summer, mid-afternoon, warm outside. Standard for them to put the kids in swimsuits and do water play out in the yard. When I got there daughter had rosy cheeks and did feel warm, but it’s summer, it’s hot out, and they’re in the sun. I took her home anyways because I didn’t have much to do in the office and was looking forward to hanging out with her. By the time we had made the 7 minute drive home her cheeks were fine and she was normal temp. I took her temperature to be sure and called the daycare to tell them that she wasn’t ill, and that I suspected she was just overheated from being out in the sun. They at least apologized profusely and didn’t make a fuss when I dropped her off the next morning.

    2. Salamander*

      I am really not having much sympathy for this person. I picked up a life-threatening C. diff infection last year, and I was in quarantine for months after I got out of the hospital. Months. I didn’t break quarantine because I sure didn’t want to visit this illness on anyone else. Not my mother, not the pizza guy, nobody. Not all germs out there are susceptible to be killed with the ubiquitous hand sanitizers that folks seem to think are magic talismans. The really bad stuff out there is completely unfazed by anything but bleach, and lots of it.

      This worker spread it around knowingly. Other people got sick. And they’ll be feeling the effects of this for quite awhile, I’d bet. If the child undergoing chemo had a lengthy stay, that might increase everyone else’s insurance premiums.

    1. BetsyTacy*

      Okay, I’m going to push back on this.

      In general, yeah- you’ve got to keep sick kids home. The pressure to keep up at work after you’ve had a kid is real. I was one of those people who rarely took sick days and now I’m in a place in life where I am often facing the dilemma of the meeting I can’t miss or the sick kid (partner travels for work). I feel like I need to argue for the other side for a moment and say that sometimes, it really isn’t that big of a deal. Norovirus though- that I would basically stick the kid in a bubble and come out 3 days later reeking of bleach.

      Sometimes, if something is going around they’re more apt to call at the slightest sign of a cough or fever. I’ve gotten the call when something was going around and ‘kid seemed a little grumpy waking up and his temp was 99’. In that case, I did consider just bringing him back to my office to finish the day. The pressure of being a parent and keeping up like you did before you were a parent, including not missing time, is real.

      1. BelleD*

        I think people are also responding to the woman’s lack of remorse, even after being told how seriously she had hurt her co-workers. I get it that people can be defensive rather than admit wrongdoing, but in this case the lack of apology rubs salt into the wound.

        1. BetsyTacy*

          The lack of remorse is ridiculous, I agree. I noticed that the thread had started to go in a ‘if your kid is at all sick, you keep them home’ thread, which I think is a little extreme.

          My office is one where we technically can’t work from home when caring for a sick kid, but it’s kind of a don’t ask/don’t tell policy when you need to get work done but also have a sick kid. We also just got a WFH policy this year- previously, you were still expected to WFH but also had to charge a sick day. Worst of both worlds right there.

      2. Parenthetically*

        Agreed with all of this. I remember occasionally having to go to work with my dad when I was very mildly sick and my mother didn’t want to take the day (she didn’t get paid if she didn’t work). Obviously this situation is different as the employee had paid sick leave, but I’m loathe to say “99.2 fever and the grumps” = “too sick to sleep and sip ginger ale on the couch in dad’s office.”

        1. Allison*

          Yeah, I had to go in with my mom when I was mildly sick. This was in the 90’s and early 2000s where working from home when you or your kid was sick was a relatively new, not yet widely embraced concept. There were days where she told me “99 is barely a fever, I can’t stay home today so either you go to school or you go to work with me.”

      3. AMG*

        But if you read upthread, that’s not the position she is in. I hear ya–I have 2 elementary school kids and am the sole provider for the house. My husband is too chronically ill to care for them. So when they are sick for the umpteenth time and I have a deadline, it completely sucks. But you call in sick–it’s just what you do.

      4. MashaKasha*

        Second this. My children’s daycare had a policy where, if a child threw up, he or she was considered contagious and had to be picked up immediately and not brought back until 24 hours later (can’t remember if we needed a doctor’s note). Which is a great and reasonable policy, unless your kid is going through the two-year period in his life where he nervously throws up at the drop of a hat. On top of getting carsick over the course of a 15-minute ride, and not able to properly digest a lot of foods. Which happened to be the case with my youngest. I got calls from daycare on a weekly basis to pick him up immediately. One time I loaded a healthy kid into my car and fifteen minutes later he got out of the car in the daycare parking lot and immediately threw up. The daycare employees met us at the door and turned us around when we tried to come in. That, by the way, was the day when I brought him to work, because my mom, who was normally willing to babysit him in emergency situations, refused to do so on a five-minute notice. Did I mention that my employer at the time offered zero paid time off for the entire first year of working there, and five days a year after? So yes, some daycares overreact. However if my kid’s daycare called and used words like “virus”, “outbreak”, i.e. if they made it clear that it was a legitimate disease going around at the center, and if my kid didn’t have a history of randomly throwing up daily, I would’ve taken that kid straight home.

        1. many bells down*

          My daughter has a digestive disorder that started causing problems in her teens. One of the symptoms is vomiting. It’s not contagious, it’s caused by a physical anomaly in her digestive tract. First the school insisted she had to be out for 24 hours after vomiting. Then they got mad that she was missing too much school. We went back and forth with the school and the truant officers and still they’d try to send her home if she had an episode at school. We couldn’t get the school to accommodate her until she was actually hospitalized for a week to treat it.

      5. PlainJane*

        I’m going to push back on your push-back. I don’t think preschoolers–especially sick ones–belong in the workplace. Unless the child sleeps the whole time, a parent isn’t going to be able to get much work done while watching the child, and if a child is unwatched at work (where generally things aren’t child-proofed), the child could get hurt. I’m a working parent, and I do know it’s tough to manage sick kids and keep up on work. But that’s not a valid reason for bringing a very young, sick child into the office to infect your co-workers.

    2. Michelle*

      I worked for Head Start about 15 years ago. I can’t tell you how many times we had to send sick kids home.

      One child threw up on the bus on the way to school and when they got to school, they threw up several more times. Their skin was hot to the touch, but I couldn’t take her temp because she gagged when I tried to put the thermometer in her mouth. The teacher had her in the restroom and I was calling the Mom. She wouldn’t answer. I finally left her a message stating that if she did not come pick up her child, we would be sending them to the ER and she could meet child services there. She showed up and said she “didn’t understand the problem because she had given her Pepto-Bismol and Tylenol” . I asked her incredulously ” So you knew she was sick, throwing up with a fever and you sent her to school anyway?!? You have exposed all the children on the bus, all the children in her classroom and staff members to whatever she had and you don’t understand the problem??”

      I realize norovirus is much, much worse but this kid ended up being out for the rest of the week, plus 2 days the next week. The center director wouldn’t let her return without a doctor’s note saying she was no longer contagious. Four other kids got sick, the teacher got sick and I felt bad for 2 days, so I stayed home.

      1. Michelle*

        Just to clarify- we wouldn’t be calling child services because the child was sick, it was a policy that if we had to transport kids to the hospital for anything other than an emergency (broken bones, hitting their head & being unconscious, severe cut, etc.) child services had to be notified. I know many will not agree with that, but I had to follow policies of the program.

      2. the_scientist*

        My aunt ran a daycare for 15 years and this is a near-daily occurrence. Parents who know their kid has a fever will dose them with tylenol in the hopes of making it through the day, plus pepto if the kid is throwing up. they know daycares typically send any kids who are febrile home and they have to stay home until they are back to a normal temp, same with vomiting.

        Having said that, my aunt worked in a lower-income community. These parents weren’t, generally speaking, doing this because they didn’t feel like looking after their kid, they were doing it because they worked in precarious jobs with no paid sick leave. They risked losing money (or worse, losing their job) if they took time off to care for their sick children. Is it fair that they’re exposing everyone at the daycare to infection? No, it’s not, but it’s also not fair that they might be fired because their kid got sick.

        1. PlainJane*

          I have great sympathy for parents in this situation. I have none for the person described by the letter-writer, who had sick leave and still chose to bring a sick child to the office.

          1. VroomVroom*

            I may have sympathy for parents in that situation, but that’s exactly why my soon-to-be-kid isn’t going into daycare and we’ve lined up a private nanny.

            1. Zahra*

              You are very, very lucky that you can afford a private nanny. Most people can’t (even on what you’d consider a very good compensation package) and a lot of people barely can afford daycare.

              1. VroomVroom*

                I know how lucky I am. My husband and I both work very hard and are probably in the 1% for our age range. We have student loans, and a mortgage, but we bought a house that was less than half of what we could afford (not just what we were approved for, what we could actually afford to spend each month) so that we could have disposable income for trips/etc. and then eventually for babies/childcare – and 3 years later that disposable income is now going to go towards childcare.

                I certainly feel for people who have less. But because I can afford it, I won’t be exposing my child to the fact that many companies don’t offer good sick leave, and therefore many families have to send kids to daycare sick and hope for the best. Just because I feel for them doesn’t mean I have to have my kid get their kids’ germs.

      3. chomps*

        Piggybacking of off what the_scientist said, I have a lot more sympathy for a parent of a child in head start doing this. Head start is only available to low-income families and most of the parents have the types of jobs where, at the very least, you don’t get paid if you don’t come in and at most you might get fired. It definitely sucks that that happened, but I have a lot more sympathy for a mom making in that situation sending her kid in than a mom in a situation where she has sick leave and isn’t penalized for using it to stay home with a sick child.

    3. Us, Too*

      In my experience, my kids have been sent home from daycare for some absolutely absurd reasons.

      One time I was forced to come pick up my kid because there was a round of pink eye going around and he had started crying and rubbing one of his eyes. When I got there his eye looked perfectly fine – I couldn’t even tell which eye was supposed to be infected. So I asked him what was wrong and he said “so and so poked me in the eye, but it feels better now.”

      BUT… I had to take the entire rest of the day off work and take him to the doctor (copay $!) just to have the doctor look at his eye and say “not pink eye. What happened, son?” “I got poked in the eye” “Yep, that sounds about right.”

      I lost 3/4 of a work day and spent a lot of money just to verify that someone had poked him in the eye EXACTLY AS HE HAD SAID.

      That is not to count the number of times he has puked and it was because he has sinus drainage, not a virus. Etc.

      So, yes, sometimes kids are sent home because they are legit contagious or legit sick, but sometimes it’s mostly the result of zealous health policies.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        If you’re going to second-guess your daycare, though, best Google it and have reasons, rather than wing it and conclude it’s probably NBD based on nothing but your own guess.

        1. Emi.*

          That’s a false dichotomy–the kid said he got poked in the eye. It’s not just a guess. It is a reason, and it’s not like “Google” is a reliable source of health information.

          1. SignalLost*

            But I’d love to see the google result that said “Your kid got poked in the eye.” Like, diagnostically. Not for “my kid says his eye hurts – what’s wrong”, just “what is wrong with my kid’s eye.” “Your kid got poked in the eye.”

      2. Jessie the First (or second)*

        Sure – but your example of an overzealous daycare policy is completely different and irrelevant.

        If there is an actual illness involved – like there was in the letter, where the child was showing symptoms and the parent knew it and there was no question of anything being invented or silly – and you are told what the illness is, then if you do not know that illness, you google it or make SOME effort to find out something about it.

        Your story of having your kid get poked in the eye doesn’t change that. It’s common sense, right? I mean, if your kid really DID have pinkeye and you didn’t know what it was, you’d google it, right? I assume you are not suggesting that when a child is vomiting it’s fine to assume it’s not real because it is theoretically possible that your child is not sick.

        1. Us, Too*

          Here’s why it’s relevant. This is SUPER common and it lends itself to parents treating daycare as sometimes a “Chicken Little”.

          In fact, every single time (probably over a dozen times now?) that my daycare has sent my kid home because “x” is going around and my kid is showing symptoms… my kid has not had the disease!

          In other words, parents often treat any kind of “medical” assessment made by daycare with great credulity because they are usually wrong (or at least they have been for me) and err on the side of caution – which I get but which creates a situation like the above pretty easily.

          If I had a dollar for every time my kid allegedly had whatever puking virus was going around and when I brought them to the doctor learned that it was just sinus drainage… UGH.

          Unless this woman was told by a pediatrician that her kid had norovirus, I can sort of understand why she wouldn’t necessarily take a daycare worker at face value.

          If you combine that skepticism with the fact that it can be impossible to get in the same day for a ped appointment to confirm it, I see how this can happen.

          (I wouldn’t bring my kid into work, but I get why a parent wouldn’t give a lot of weight to a daycare’s medical assessment.)

        2. Us, Too*

          Incidentally, puking is actually a fantastic example. It’s allergy season right now and my kid has terrible drainage issues. He pukes daily (literally) because he has a highly sensitive gag reflex and the drainage causes a throat tickle. This is most common at night and during nap time, but he’ll have the odd coughing-puking spell now and then at other times.

          So in my kid’s situation, if they told me he was puking the first thing I’d ask is “does he have a fever? Was it after coughing? Are there any other symptoms?” etc.

  11. LoiraSafada*

    Unreal. This would honestly make it hard for me to work with this person going forward. What an incredible lack of basic decency and common sense.

  12. Namast'ay In Bed*

    Oh man I had a coworker at OldJob come to work feeling and sounding like death because he didn’t want to “waste” a sick day. I understand that OldJob was awful when it came to PTO, but I caught a worse version of whatever he had and was out for a week and a half, sicker than I had been in years. When I came back to the office he laughed it off and said he’d make it up to me by buying me lunch. To say I was pissed was an understatement. Not only did I have to use all of the PTO I had saved to actually go on a vacation for once because he didn’t want to use one sick day, he never actually bought me lunch.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      What the actual flibbertigibbet! THIS IS WHAT SICK DAYS ARE FOR YOU ARENT WASTING ONE BY STAYING HOME WHEN YOUR SICK! Like, this is the actual reason you have them!

      1. edgwin*

        I get only 6 sick days for the year. I stayed home one day in early January because I had a particularly nasty migraine. Then a week later, I had emergency gallbladder surgery and missed four days. I was able to combine some vacation and sick, but now I’m down to three sick days for the rest of the year. Pretty sure I’m gonna end up coming into work with colds this year because now I’m terrified about using up my sick days on “just a cold” when unforeseen surgeries are now a real possibility in my life.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Then I hope you’re willing to do what’s necessary to keep it away from your colleagues.

        2. Lord of the Ringbinders*

          6 days?! Is that normal in America? I feel naive that I’m so shocked. I have 8 weeks on full pay and 8 on half and it goes up after two years of service. Obviously you need documentation to take that much.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            No, that’s a piss-poor sick leave policy, bordering on abusive.

            1. Temperance*

              Abusive? I don’t think giving employees 6 paid days off per year for sick time, not counting PTO or personal days, counts as “abuse”.

            2. BPT*

              Haha. At my last workplace I had three.

              Of course, my work was pretty lax and would let people usually “work from home” if they were sick. But officially, three.

          2. fposte*

            Average in the U.S. is 8, I think, but I think that’s only with people who *have* sick days–nearly 40% of U.S. workers don’t have paid sick days.

          3. Nobody Here By That Name*

            6 days of sick leave here, and that’s going on 10 years with my current company. I have 3 weeks vacation though. Since I have chronic illness I end up using up my sick days and then going through my vacation days. If I’m lucky I have enough vacation left by the time the year is up I can take some time off as actual vacation. :D

            1. VroomVroom*

              We get 19 PTO days in a year – but they’re all one thing. Sick & Vacation. It means that we don’t really take sick unless we’re REALLY sick (with a cold I may come in and confine myself to my office, be extra vigilant with hand washing – even to the point of I use paper towels if I touch anything communal like the coffee maker/water machine/fridge).

              However, we’re also super lenient about working from home when you feel less than 100%, so if it’s a really BAD cold or I’m really sick (last year I threw out my neck and had to work from home for a week, but I could still work, I just couldn’t move around very well) I’ll just work from home. I haven’t actually taken an “I’m so sick I’m staying home and cannot work” day in the entire time I’ve been at the company – 3 years.

          5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            Eight weeks?! And that’s just your sick time???

            Holy shit, I thought I’d landed in the cream when I went from a job that accrued 1.8hrs of sick pay per 2 weeks to a job that gives 10 days per year for sick!

        3. Marcela*

          I have intestinal endometriosis, which causes me horrible pain every two weeks, on my period and ovulation. Since I only have 15 days of PTO for everything, you can be damm sure I’ll go to my office unless I’m dying. I WILL do my best to keep my illness contained and not to spread it, but my company should care enough about everyone’s health to have policies that help to stay home when sick.

      2. Rex*

        To be fair, this sounds like one of those unfortunate employers that combines their sick leave and vacation into one PTO bucket, which means that being sick too much can interfere with your ability to take a vacation.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      Oh, I’d be really upset too! Some people are just really, really bizarrely nonchalant about infecting other people. Like it’s this unavoidable thing that just happens.

      1. SignalLost*

        But … it is. As long as we continue to use HVAC systems, as long as we continue to not provide sick time in appropriate amounts, as long as we continue to share other air environments such as planes and public transit, as long as we continue to make shaking hands an unofficial policy when meeting strangers, as long as we continue to encourage high-stress tight-deadline workplaces that will shame people for taking time off, and, most importantly, as long as we continue to get sick without manifesting symptoms while infectious, we will continue to infect other people with common illnesses.

        There’s a difference between “I have been diagnosed with measles, but screw you, I’m going to the club anyway” and “did I sleep weird? My neck hurts a little” that two days later turns out to be a cold, but unless you live on a ranch in Eastern Montana by yourself, it is pretty much not avoidable to get sick by exposure to other people. If it was, we would never, ever get sick with anything because viruses and illness-causing bacteria would have died out millennia ago.

    3. Kasia*

      My coworker recently came in sick because she didn’t want to waste a sick day…. I told her that if she didn’t take on someone else would have to because she’s going to infect the whole office! Why is your PTO more important than your coworkers!?

      Luckily I didn’t end up getting sick and she did eventually take a day off but I would have been pretty angry if she had gotten me sick

      1. ZSD*

        This is why it’s best for offices to separate vacation and sick time. Combined PTO makes it more likely for people to come in to work when they’re sick. (I mean, I know I’d hate to lose a vacation day over a cold. I’m glad I’ve never been in a job with a PTO setup.)

      2. Christine*

        One of the lab techs came in with strep throat, infected everyone in their lab. Sick & Leave are in separate pools and she could have taken the time off. Her supervisor & husband had a trip to china scheduled and both got too sick to go. They had been saving for it for years. They lost money on that trip. The supervisor held a grudge for a long time after that.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          One time at OldExjob, my supervisor came in while HORRIBLY ill. I was terrified to go near him or even in his office. Reason? I had non-refundable plane tickets to go see a long-distance bf, and I was not going to miss my trip because of him. If I had gotten sick, I would have been so angry I might have quit on the spot. Not just at him, but at the company, who didn’t seem to think he needed an assistant for backup (I was the receptionist; it would have been a separate job, and yes they did need a second person in there).

    4. Namast'ay In Bed*

      To actually relate this back to the post, I was able to push past this and continue to work with him, partly because I don’t think he realized how sick he was or that it would hit me way harder, but in my mind he’s pretty much always going to be the asshole from my old job who got me sick.

      OP, you should absolutely talk with your employee – I think at the very least they need to apologize to their coworkers. It’s one thing to get everyone sick, it’s a whole other level to get everyone sick and openly appear to not care, especially with your generous sick time policy.

    5. LoiraSafada*

      I worked for someone that had to be hospitalized twice because she refused to stay home and rest when ill. She ALWAYS came into the office sick. Needless to say, she wasn’t very sympathetic when I had a health scare that required me to actually take sick leave for appointments and an in-office procedure.

    6. NonProfit Nancy*

      FWIW I struggle to know when things are bad “enough” to use a sick day, and I’ve probably come down on the wrong side of it a few times. I feel stupid staying home, knowing I’m making more work for my colleagues, if I don’t really feel “that bad.” (I do also think the hystrical witch hunt Who Got Me Sick is stupid. It’s just as likely to be someone who sat in your seat on the bus before you, and you’d never know it). Anyway, I’m working on this. I think it’s a holdover from school days, when I was always assumed to be faking / trying to get out of something.

      1. Allison*

        I’ve worked places where if someone was out sick, people might make comments as to whether they were really sick or just faking. Or hungover. To policy or no policy, if someone was afraid people would stand around their empty cubicle going “oh yeah, ‘sick,’ riiiight!” and guffawing as they pretend to drink or play video games, OR tsking and going “hmmm, must be nice, I came in with ____ once because *I* had work to do . . .” , they might want to limit how often they’re out.

        1. NonProfit Nancy*

          Yeah, everybody on this blog says “if you’re at all sick, just stay home,” but in all offices (and school) you are rewarded for being as hard working martyr and it’s often looked askance if you’re out sick. Particularly on a Friday or Monday – which is 2/5ths of the week!

          1. Allison*

            Seriously. Last year I was sick at least two Mondays in a row. One was for the flu, the other for a very bad cold. I couldn’t help it!

        2. MashaKasha*

          My evil twin would be tempted to come in sick, walk up to each of those commenters, sneeze on each of them personally, then call in sick for the rest of the day and go home. Seriously, these people make a workplace demoralizing as heck, not to mention help turn it into a germ factory.

      2. Parenthetically*

        Same. It doesn’t help that there’s literally no one available to teach my classes for me if I’m gone, which means either my students are stuck doing homework all day or my coworkers are running around desperately trying to cover my classes during their breaks. My general rule is high fever or vomiting, otherwise I’m coming in and just using hand sanitizer eighteen times a day.

    7. Allison*

      Nod nod, at my first job you only accrued two weeks of PTO your first couple of years, with no separate sick day bank, so people had to really save if they wanted to actually go on vacation. People often came to work with colds, and people may have said “awwww, seriously, go home, it’s okay” (if they liked you) but simultaneously hailed these people as hard working martyrs. I’ll never forget when one person sent around an article about a postal worker who never took a single sick day in her life and said “we should all strive to be this woman!” I’m so happy I don’t work there anymore.

      1. Regular Attendance*

        100% perfect attendance people are either just lucky or reckless with illness. No awards should be given. I remember getting an award for great attendance as a kid and I think it was a just year later that pneumonia took me out for a couple of weeks. So stupid.

    8. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Back at OldJob, I had a boss come to work with walking pneumonia, the whole time she was sick — she was technically our grandboss, but our boss had recently and very abruptly passed away, and so grandboss/acting boss felt that she absolutely had to be there because otherwise we would have no supervisory levels present between team lead (with basically no real authority) and great-grandboss (who was responsible for like half the building). It was not a good show.

  13. MuseumChick*

    I had to read the post twice to make sure I understood it. I assumed that company must have a terrible sick-day policy so the employee is scared of missing work or something but that’s not the case.

    OP, I agree with Alison, you need to have a serious talk with her. IMO, I would point that people with compromised immune system were effected by this and there is a real danger to those people getting a norovirus. Watch how she reacts, if she is defensive or dismissive I would seriously think about if this is they type of employee you want in your office.

    1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      I don’t get any PTO and I would even stay out for the worst of the virus (does it last longer than 3 days or so?) I would have to come back as soon as I was through getting physically sick, but you can bet I would stay out as long as I could afford. And I wouldn’t touch food for others till I felt better!

      1. Tuckerman*

        I think that’s one of the tricky things about Norovirus. Even after you feel better, you’re contagious for a few days. So the parent might need to be out for a couple weeks.

    2. INFJ*

      I agree. There definitely needs to be a serious conversation about what happens, with OP paying close attention to the employee’s reaction: is she mortified and apologetic or defensive?

      While I am truly horrified at some of the consequences of this person bringing norovirus to work, I think the lynching mob in this comments section is way overblown.

      2. SignalLost*

        There’s a really sanctimonious quality to it – “I’ve never made this mistake or ANY mistake!” I agree with your entire comment, too; I think we’re missing some information conveyed by tone/action.

  14. Snarkus Aurelius*

    Sometimes the consequences of our actions are so great and so terrible that to take responsibility is too emotionally overwhelming, especially if we honestly didn’t think whatever bad thing that happened was going to happen. (I’ve worked for one too many bosses who refused to admit problems because admitting it would require dealing with it.) This woman would have to admit that she not only got a lot of people sick but she literally threatened the well-being of some pretty vulnerable people. To make matters worse, she had no excuse because she didn’t make use of your company’s sick time policy!

    I’m not excusing her actions; I’m explaining her actions.

    All signs point to this explanation, which is not okay of course, but I hope this helps you in the conversation you have to have with her.

    1. I don't feel like getting jumped on for this post, so anon*

      Yeah, I’m totally with you on the old Explanation is not an Excuse deal. However, I have to admit, I’ve been reading the comments and I’m really surprised at the level of vitriol that’s been displayed towards this woman, and I’ve had norovirus! I was out for weeks with it (I’d just got over the flu, gone back to work for 1 day, and got the symptoms of norovirus that same evening. It was horrible). But until that moment, I didn’t even know what norovirus was.

      I’m not Excusing this woman’s actions either, because who takes a sick kid to work anyway? If they’re actually sick, they should be in bed resting, and if they’re just a bit poorly, they’ll be bored stiff and causing you hella problems in the office! But I can understand her thinking it’s not a big deal, especially if she doesn’t know about the immuno-compromised individuals (and privacy concerns mean she may not). She still needs to apologise profusely, because she did something egregious, but she MAY not have known how bad it was until after the fact. Why can’t we give her the benefit of the doubt until we have evidence to prove otherwise?

        1. Relly*

          I think the level of vitriol is attributable to two things:

          A: her lack of remorse, which to be fair, may be related to the explanation just given, and

          B: sympathizing / identifying with the other employees who had immunocompromised loved ones, whose lives were endangered.

          If it were simply “loads of people got sick,” that would just be aggravating, but the fact that a child with cancer was hospitalized ups this a few levels for me.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Do the people in your glass house ever talk on the phone while driving or do any of the myriad other things that people do that can put others at risk? Because, as fposte points out above, most people do plenty of things that do.

              That doesn’t mean that what the employee did was okay; of course it wasn’t. But the level of vitriol here is over the top (and is reminding me of Jon Ronson’s book on public shaming that I recently read).

              1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

                My read is that folks are reacting to the chain of bad decisions – not just the bringing of the kid, but the letting him eat potluck food, the staying mum during the public health investigation, and the continued dismissive attitude and lack of contrition. In combination, I think that paints a picture that gets a lot of folks lathered up.

                1. BPT*

                  But the same could be said for anyone who has texted while driving – there’s the chain of bad decisions – you have your phone where you can see it while you’re driving instead of in your purse or tucked away; you see a text; you decide to read the text; you decide to answer the text. Same could be said for speeding. Same could be said for jaywalking.

                  I’m not saying that it’s ok. Both my parents have had cancer within weeks of each other – I get how important it is for immunocompromised people to stay away from things that could make them sicker. But I seriously doubt that there are people here who haven’t done anything that could cause death or serious injury to another person. And people generally will keep doing those things until something bad happens.

                  And lack of contrition and dismissive attitude, while could be true, might also not be true according to the LW. It could be embarrassment or being so ashamed that she doesn’t want to talk about it.

                2. Kimberlee, Esq*

                  in response to BPT: in order for that example to work, you have to throw in consequences. Most people who talk on the phone in the car don’t have anything bad happen as a result (same with most people who bring, say, a cold into the office). This example is like if you’re texting while driving (something that there are public service campaigns against) and then hit someone in a crosswalk and send them to the hospital. If that were me, yeah, I’d feel pretty dang bad about texting in the first place and would be fully contrite about it. It would be *nice* if people got to the contrite part without landing others in the hospital, but it’s downright remarkable that having that level of consequence has _not_ led to contrition in this case.

                3. BPT*

                  @Kimberlee – but again, there’s no proof that she doesn’t feel bad about what happened. Her actions can be interpreted many ways. Further, many people who cause accidents absolutely DO NOT admit fault or apologize because it could lead to legal consequences.

                  I’m saying that there’s nobody here who hasn’t endangered someone else’s life in some way or another. People seem to be forgetting that.

                4. a*

                  I agree about it being the chain of decisions that’s the problem. It’s not a single mistake here, it’s a pattern of terrible, terrible judgment calls.

                  To me, the coworker allowing her child near the food (or simply not watching the child closely enough to prevent it) is the part that took me from “bad, but potentially understandable” to “firing offense.” Even if you have no clue about the severity of norovirus (which honestly, I didn’t until I read this post), no matter WHAT they are sick with, allowing them to touch/taint communal food is heinous. That’s an issue where you can ask yourself “Would I want to eat food that was touched by someone with a communicable GI infection?” and if the answer is no, that tells you what to do. You do whatever it takes to keep the kid as quarantined, and if your kid gets into the food before you can stop him, you raise the alarm even if it means taking the hit of having to admit you brought your kid to work.

                  I tend to see the coworker’s actions being careless/ignorant rather than sociopathic, but… sometimes people are *malignantly* careless or ignorant, you know? The coworker’s actions fall into that category to me.

              2. Relly*

                To clarify, I’m not saying “they’re right, she’s Satan and should be shot out of a cannon,” but that I think the anger is understandable, given the situation. I doubt she was malicious rather than thoughtless, and had she apologized, mortified, I doubt anyone would be calling for blood. But I think the seeming disregard for the lives of others is what is getting up so many hackles.

                1. Not The Droid You Are Looking For*

                  Me too. And I feel like I reference it weekly (though it could be because the TED radio hour just shared his talk again).

                  He made a great point that we are making things a “this or that” situation to a startling degree. That people are now great heroes or horrible villains, that the space of “in between” is disappearing.

                2. fposte*

                  @Not the Droid–I was thinking recently how the Manichaean approach is one that humans find it difficult to resist. Hell, they had to make it a heresy and it still didn’t stop people.

              5. Britt*

                I’m surprised by your leniency here honestly. I wouldn’t exactly call putting someone’s child in the hospital and potentially exposing an entire nursing home to this, “glass houses”. The employee exercised poor judgement at every turn here and then feels no remorse for what she has done. That is not a person I would trust and goes far beyond a small “everyone is human” screw-up IMO

              7. LawLady*

                I was just thinking of Jon Ronson’s book while reading through this. Agreed that it’s a similar reaction.

              8. AD*

                Alison, I must disagree here (as others have done). It feels like some people are excusing her behavior as she didn’t know what norovirus is, and there’s more to the story than that. As Britt says, it feels like you’re being quite lenient here.
                And there may be some posts more strongly worded than usual, but….it’s not exactly vitriol. I’ve read your site for 2 years and this is the first time I’m honestly getting the feeling that you’re getting annoyed by and trying to marginalize comments that don’t agree with your thinking. Hoping that’s not the case….but dissenting opinions (even those that call on the employee in question to be fired) are not vitriol.
                There are strong feelings when something like this comes up because lots of people have worked with colleagues who are thoughtless/inconsiderate about coming in sick and exposing others to illnesses/viruses. Those feelings may be strong for a reason, because that thoughtlessness can cause serious illness and inconvenience for others.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  Me strongly disagreeing doesn’t equal marginalizing other viewpoints. But yeah, I’m going to be vocal when I think people are way off-base about something and out for blood (and advocating for someone losing their job over it).

                  I do think, though, that this has turned into one of the weirdest comment threads in the history of the site.

                2. AMG*

                  Yes, I can agree that it certainly seems like everyone is baffled at why others think this is such a big deal / not a big deal. I’m pretty surprised myself.

                3. AD*

                  @Alison Likely because this is a subject that fires people up. It’s hard to be disaffected/unemotional about potential contagious illnesses. Although calling for an immediate termination (which I wouldn’t do) isn’t necessarily being out for blood. Some folks/managers have a higher threshold of fireable offenses than others, is what this tells me.

                4. Ypsiguy*

                  Alison, I would be interested at some point in hearing your thoughts about when firing is appropriate. Like you, I’m amazed by the number of people who think it’s appropriate here–and how many people are advocating it simply as an extreme punishment.

                  What’s not clear to me is how the people advocating for the firing of NoroMom think the company will be improved by that firing. If you think the company will sell more teapots if she is fired, then okay–firing makes sense. But there are too many people who seem to advocate firing-as-punishment or firing-as-revenge.

                5. MegaMoose, Esq*

                  @AD: I think it’s remarkably easy to be disaffected/unemotional about potential contagious illnesses when you and your loved ones have not been directly impacted by those illnesses and you see it happening as a fairly remote possibility. Most people probably don’t take these things nearly seriously enough, but the human brain is pretty good at minimizing risks in favor of even slight rewards. Distracted driving has come up as an example a number of times – how is satisfying your curiosity about that text message possible worth even the small possibility of killing another human being? And yet…

                6. fposte*

                  @Ypsiguy–I think that’s a really good question. For me a lot of this would depend on how damaged her collegial relationships are. If she doesn’t help fix the situation so that people are more willing to work with her, I might serve the company better by replacing her.

                7. AD*

                  @MegaMoose
                  Lumping together distracted drivers with people exposing others (unwittingly or not) to viruses is not helpful, nor is it the point I (or others) are seeking to make. I’m not rehashing what I’ve said elsewhere, but the employee’s actions here are troubling and it feels like those feeling strongly about this (and who are not going to the extreme of insulting her) are being shot down or told their approach is wrong. Sorry, doesn’t work that way.
                  And I think we’re all adult enough to weigh each person’s actions individually without painting the world with a broad brush. I see an employee who disregarded the daycare’s instructions, had no knowledge of (and no desire to seek knowledge of) norovirus, brought her sick child to work (against company norms), and had him there for hours. When it became clear (at some point thereafter) that he had infected others (some quite seriously) she doubled down and didn’t come forward to acknowledge that her son was ill and most likely others got it from him. And on top of it all, she was not and is not apologetic.
                  What this woman’s really, really poor choices have to do with drivers who text is completely a straw man argument.

                8. Emi.*

                  @AD, people have called her a jerk, a disgusting jerk, a colossal jerk, a complete jerk, a low-life, disgusting, lacking basic decency, a terrible person, willfully reckless, and shady, and also advocated for “looking for a way to hit this employee where it hurts.” There’s more vitriol in this thread than I’ve ever seen on this site.

                9. MegaMoose, Esq*

                  @AD: I was really only responding to your comment that “it’s hard to be disaffected/unemotional about potential contagious illnesses” by noting that humans often downplay the likelihood of serious consequences to what they (rightly or wrongly) see as trivially dangerous actions.

                  @EMI: I feel like threads touching on parenting or female-specific issues can get pretty ugly, but I’ve been surprised at much of the language here as well. It hasn’t just been one or two people, either.

                  @AD: The above comment @EMI is in no way meant to criticize your position or language. I’m just consolidating.

                10. INFJ*

                  @Alison, I’m not surprised at all. Just look at the response when the letter is about coming in to work with a cold, and this was norovirus. The second I read the headline, I knew the comments would be pitchforks and torches.

                11. AD*

                  @Emi.
                  Alison has a whole section/tag called “Jerks”. So calling or labeling someone a jerk, based on evidence and actual egregious behavior, is not exactly out of bounds for commenters or the owner of this site.

                12. AD*

                  @MegaMoose
                  Let’s call a spade a spade (and I’m sure they’ll own up to it). AMG and Temperance were the ones who used the strongest language. There have been dozens (if not more) people who also felt strongly about the employee, and whose input is worthy of consideration (and that is whether Alison agrees or not).

                14. Temperance*

                  @YpsiGuy: I actually do think her firing would improve the company. Right now, she’s working with a bunch of people who are reasonably angry with her for exposing them to a disgusting, unpleasant illness, and at least a handful of people whose relatives have faced serious health consequences due to her actions. While yes, I am feeling vengeful because I’m so viscerally disgusted by her actions and her allowing the kid to touch communal food (or neglecting to mind him in such a way that he accessed communal food), I am honestly gobsmacked that a grown woman whose actions caused the serious illness of a sick child and a senior is just … not owning up to her shit.

                15. Temperance*

                  @AD

                  I will absolutely admit that I called her a jerk for a.) exposing people to a potentially serious illness, b.) not owning up to it once her kid became sicker and/or other people started to show symptoms, and c.) not apologizing to her coworkers, especially the parent of the child with cancer and the person whose grandmother was exposed.

                  I am an admitted germaphobe, and just picturing a toddler with norovirus sticking his little toddler hands in a bunch of communal food has set me on edge, honestly. (I dearly love most children, but having worked as a catering server, little kids and communal food do not mix on the best of days.) This woman could have prevented the spread of the illness if she owned up to her mistake, but instead she chose to pretend nothing happened up until the Department of Health got involved.

                16. I don't feel like getting jumped on for this post, so anon*

                  I’m advocating for leniency in light of not having all the available information. If this had been me (I have no children, so not likely, but say it was me that went in sick), I would be HORRIFIED to learn of the consequences of my actions. So on the one hand, I would be almost too afraid to admit to others (possibly even to myself) what I had done. That could very easily look like minimising.

                  I also have depression and anxiety, which unfortunately makes owning up to mistakes (or even potential mistakes) very difficult – I spiral into ‘People will hate me forever, I hate myself, how could I make this mistake, I’ll never recover from this’.

                  I ALSO really really hate having to admit my mistakes to others (it feels like my nose being rubbed in it). It’s not enough to apologise, you want me to take you through the inner workings of my mind so you can revel in my mortification?! No thanks! This especially if people are jumping on a bandwagon, and I’ll start to dig my heels in. It’s not a healthy attitude to have, and I’m working on it, but to deny that it exists (and I’ve seen it in LOTS of people!) is futile.

                  So all of this is to say that I think Allison’s advice is correct – find out whether the employee still thinks it’s NBD, and if she still doesn’t intrinsically get it (I’m not talking about a public display of remorse, no matter how satisfying that might seem), then maybe move to a more serious consequence. But since we cannot know all of the facts based on even the LW’s opinion (unless the LW has heard straight from the woman herself), then let’s exercise a bit of discretion and compassion. I have to say, this kind of outrage is not something that I expected from the AAM crowd, who normally advocate for finding out more information before jumping to the nuclear option.

                18. Temperance*

                  Here’s my .02: I’m a huge germaphobe. This situation is my worst nightmare. I’m picturing this scene playing out like the beginning of the movie Outbreak. (Great film, absolutely the start of my germaphobia.) The fact that LW’s employee doesn’t seem remorseful at all and has been minimizing her responsibility would make it even worse.

                  It’s hard for me to relate because this is something I could literally never do myself. I have anxiety issues relating to the spread of disease, so I wouldn’t really have much sympathy for someone who got me sick and then pretended to be not involved whatsoever. This is doubly true for someone who put a sick child in the hospital, and who exposed a senior to a potentially deadly illness.

                  I’m coming on so strong because this is such a shocking breach of the social contract, I think. I just can’t wrap my head around the idea that she had no clue what she was doing was putting people in danger of contracting a disgusting illness. Your kid’s daycare has a norovirus outbreak + your kid has symptoms of norovirus = it’s fine to bring your kid to work and either not supervise him or allow him to touch communal food.

            2. AMG*

              No, we actually do not.
              And am I saying we are the Christ family incarnate? No, but we sure as Hell do not do that this woman did. There are consequences in every society for people that endanger others. Some people are so lacking in judgment that they should be fired because the relationships are too damaged by that negligence–I believe this woman is one of them. If that fits the definition of public shaming as defined in your book, then so be it.

            3. PK*

              Plenty of folks come in to work and passed on sicknesses to others that could easily cause a doctor/hospital visit. I’ve never once had a coworker apologize for starting an office outbreak either. Hindsight is 20/20.

        2. Don't want to throw stones in my glass house*

          I agree that I’m willing to give her the benefit of the doubt up to the point where she brought her kid to work (it does surprise that she didn’t ask anyone’s permission, which makes me think she knew it probably wasn’t ok from a policy standpoint). The part I’m having trouble with is the complete lack of apology or acknowledgement of the very serious lapse of judgement. As AAM said above, this might not make me fire this person but it would definitely diminish my trust in this person. Making bad judgments happens all the time at work, but waiting to come forward, not acknowledging your part in the eventual fall-out, and not attempting to make amends shouldn’t be happening from employees who you want to keep around. This may be a one off or it may be a pattern with this person. That’s what I would try to focus on.

        3. Mike C.*

          I don’t endanger the lives of others with my mistakes.

          Look, maybe it’s because you don’t work anywhere that’s actually dangerous, but I certainly do. You don’t screw around with health and safety “mistakes” because it’s “mistakes” that get people killed. Too often I’ve seen the flashing lights from the company ambulance pull up to a work area and take one or more people away. Most of the time, it was because “someone made a mistake”.

          Do you understand what that feels like? Wondering if they’re going to be ok? If they’re going to see their kids again? If they’ll be able to come back to work? The intense guilt felt by the rest of the team for being lucky enough not to be the one instead? Even if that person is able to come back physically, PTSD is always a possibility.

          Work is supposed to be a safe place. That comes before any other concern, period. You are supposed to come out of the building in more or less the same fashion you came in. That is the first and primary responsibility of everyone at the workplace, including management.

          The vitriol you see is because so many, including the employee, are not taking this responsibility seriously.

          1. Cat*

            I’d be surprised if there’s any of us who have never endangered the lives of others with our mistakes. Gone to the drug store sick? Been distracted for a micro second while driving? Etc. We do a lot of things that have potentially disastrous consequences.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Yep. I really appreciated these comments from Fposte pointing out that most of us have knowingly exposed other people to health and safety risks and decided we were okay with it:

              https://www.askamanager.org/2017/02/my-employee-knowingly-brought-norovirus-into-the-office-and-got-a-bunch-of-people-sick.html#comment-1354837

              https://www.askamanager.org/2017/02/my-employee-knowingly-brought-norovirus-into-the-office-and-got-a-bunch-of-people-sick.html#comment-1354676

              1. BPT*

                Um, it definitely can. If you’re sick with something contagious, you’re coming into contact with other people there. Same principle of bringing it to work – if you’re around other people, you can pass it on. There are probably people at the drugstore picking up medicine for immunocompromised people who could pass along your germs. I don’t see how it’s any different.

              2. fposte*

                Sure it is. Immunocompromised and elderly people shop too. (And while I’m focusing on the drug store, I think lots of us also hit the supermarket to stock up, too.)

                I really think people want this to be black and white and it’s not. Colds are not norovirus which is not TB; it’s absolutely appropriate to have a different level of alarm for exposure to each of them and to have different polices in offices about them. But they can all lead to death in people we expose them to. And most of us have decided that that’s okay with some contagious diseases, such as colds, mostly because it’s just the way people operate but likely because we believe the chance of serious illness as a result of contagion is low. But it’s still there, and then throw in all the times we think we have a cold but we actually have influenza, because low-level flu is pretty tough to differentiate from a cold.

                1. AD*

                  This feels like a lot of hocus-pocus to minimize the poor judgment of an employee who brought her very sick child into work (against policy) and then kept mum on the illness he had as others became sick and continued to hide it.
                  The straw man argument you’re making (we’re all sick at some point, what are we supposed to do about it?) isn’t aligning with what this specific employee did.

                2. fposte*

                  It’s aligning with the moral position many people are taking, though–that willful endangerment of other people is unforgiveable. If you’re not taking that position and are just saying she shouldn’t have brought her kid in, then I’m with you.

            3. a*

              “Been distracted for a micro second while driving?”

              But the punishment for distracted driving depends on the outcome as well. If you’re distracted changing the radio station and have to stop short to avoid hitting the person in front of you, no big deal. If you’re distracted changing the radio station and plow through a group of pedestrians in the crosswalk, the consequences are going to be much more severe.

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            So does it follow then that you think anyone who comes to work sick should be fired? Because while this time it happened to be a kid with norovirus who led to another child being hospitalized, next time it could be an employee with a cold.

            1. Jesmlet*

              That’s not really the same thing though. You have to factor in the intent, the result, and the subsequent response to the result. It was careless and dangerous bringing in a child with that severe an illness, it resulted in harm to multiple coworkers, and she’s expressed zero remorse for it. Even if it’s just willful ignorance, you’d expect them to apologize but she hasn’t. She permanently poisoned every relationship she has in that place and odds are won’t be able to fix it at this stage.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                Roughly half the people commenting here (among a community of generally reasonable commenters) don’t think this is a firing offense, so clearly it’s not as absolutely clear-cut as more vitriolic comments are positioning it as.

                1. AD*

                  Well, half feel more strongly and discounting their opinions is not something that feels like something that usually happens here.

                2. Jesmlet*

                  Just saying that not all comments saying she should be fired are vitriolic too. Also I think as far as consequences, your rebuttal just focuses on the results of her actions and I was just pointing out that a lot of the “fire her” comments are looking at more than just that. She’s certainly not an evil person for doing what she did, but you have to be reasonable about how the workplace environment can recover after what she did and then what she still hasn’t done.

                3. Anna*

                  Not all opinions are equal, AD. Just because you have one doesn’t make it the right one. That’s not discounting it, it’s letting you know that perhaps your opinion needs a bit more fine tuning.

            2. AD*

              That’s a bit of a false equivalence, as norovirus and a cold are not remotely the same thing and it feels like this is downplaying what the employee here did (she was apparently notified by the daycare that her son was exhibiting signs of norovirus).

              Coming to work with a cold is not in the same league, and not sure why you’d think that’s the case.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                But for people focusing on the consequences (the child being hospitalized), the same outcome could have occurred with someone coming in with a cold.

                I don’t disagree that the employee was solidly in the wrong. But I think the demonization is way over the top.

                1. AD*

                  I don’t think she should be fired on the spot (some comments may be in that general camp) but would have a serious conversation with this employee

                2. AMG*

                  But not nearly as likely. Norivirus isn’t anywhere near a cold. I had the swine flu once and it was the only time in my life that I was genuinely afraid for my well-being because of contracting a bug. If someone hadn’t taken care of me, I would been at the hospital within 24 hours.
                  Point is, it wasn’t a cold–it was something very, very dangerous.

                4. Observer*

                  @AMG But for some people a cold is actually more dangerous than a stomach bug – it depends on what their particular issue is.

                  What’s really bugging me here is not the people who are saying that she really needs a stern talking to, and that her reaction to that should inform the OP’s next moves. Of course that should happen. No, it’s the “Well *I* know / would find out / would have daycare that does” whatever, so OBVIOUSLY *she* KNEW / DELIBERATELY did not find out / ABSOLUTELY IGNORED her days care’s UTTERLY ACCURATE assessment in order to knowingly infect the office. Yes, that’s a bit of an exaggeration. But not by much.

            3. Mike C.*

              The employee knew it was norovirus, and kept that information away from public health officials. That’s a much, much different situation than someone coming in with what they in good faith believe to be a minor ailment.

              1. fposte*

                Can you expand on the “kept that information away from public health officials”? Are you meaning that she didn’t tell until she was asked by them? I don’t think she was required to report it just because it was suspected by the daycare–you’re not in my state.

                1. fposte*

                  Sorry, that last phrase is confusing–I mean “There is no such requirement in my state,” not “You do not live in the state that I do.”

                2. Mike C.*

                  I confused two aspects of the letter – she didn’t say anything to her coworkers. It’s intermingled with the part about public health officials, my mistake.

          3. TL -*

            You’ve never driven in weather you realized you shouldn’t have been driving in once you’re actually caught in it? Ever ran a yellow light – or a red one, accidentally? Driven in a bad mood, or been ill, or something else that would make you less likely to make good decisions?

            You’ve never gone to the doctor’s office for a contagious disease that they couldn’t treat you for – and exposed their entire waiting room? Or out sick in public at all? Gone to the ER for something that turned out to be minor (and thus potentially took time away from someone who was really sick if incorrectly triaged?)

            You’ve made mistakes that have endangered people; it’s just that like most of our mistakes, none of them have ended up harming someone. Hopefully you learned from them and moved on with life, as we all try to.

            1. Mike C.*

              Those aren’t examples of negligence. A reasonable person can make those mistakes in an honest fashion. A reasonable person would not have brought a sick kid to work like the employee did.

              1. TL -*

                A reasonable person should check the weather report, refrain from driving and going into public when under the weather, do all sorts of things. This was bad judgment and that should be addressed but I just have a hard time believing you’ve never made a mistake, including a negligent one, from bad judgement.

      2. Temperance*

        I read in the letter that she was informed of the norovirus outbreak, and that her child had symptoms. I also read that she allowed him to touch communal food and use the facilities without sanitizing afterward. That’s why I can’t give her the benefit of the doubt. I hate people who expose others to illness on a purposeful basis, which is probably why my reaction is so strong. Norovirus is awful, and she knowingly exposed people to it.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          And we all carry around tiny supercomputers that allow us to access in seconds most of the knowledge, cat pictures, and pornography the human species has produced in its time on this planet.

          1. Natalie*

            “The disease is usually self-limiting, and severe illness is rare. Although having norovirus can be unpleasant, it is not usually dangerous and most who contract it make a full recovery within two to three days.”

            Norovirus, per Wikipedia. The fact that this woman wasn’t acting like a medieval villager afraid of the black death doesn’t mean she didn’t google norovirus and read something similarly sedate.

            1. Jesmlet*

              Even so, it’s VERY contagious and who would be fine exposing all your coworkers to an extremely contagious illness that causes severe gastrointestinal issues. I used to work in a hospital and picked it up once and it was awful. Vomiting 2-3 days is not fun. I passed out from the dehydration. I can’t even imagine awful it would’ve been for someone not young and in good health.

              1. Natalie*

                I’m not saying it’s not super contagious, and I don’t think she made a good decision. My point was simply that most of the reliable resources on norovirus describe it (correctly) as a short, not terribly dangerous illness. That, to me, is the difference between “dangerously negligent, should be fired, etc” and “serious error in judgment, have serious conversation with her”.

                1. Jesmlet*

                  I feel like what she did was the equivalent of knowingly bringing a dish that causes food poisoning to a potluck, but worse. Not everyone’s going to eat it, some people might bring it home as leftovers, some might give it to their immunocompromised kids. It’s just not a risk you should be taking. Food poisoning doesn’t usually kill, it just really sucks, but when the wrong person gets it, it can have devastating effects. Very similar to norovirus.

                2. AD*

                  Still…why bring your child into work at all?
                  I feel like people are doing loop-de-loops to avoid criticizing a parent (with apparently ample sick days banked up) who decided to bring their very sick child into work.
                  What justification could there possibly be for that? Whether it is norovirus or flu or a very bad cold, why subject your coworkers to that? The “most people don’t know what norovirus is” argument is a red herring. Your child is sick; you don’t bring them to work. It’s not unreasonable to hold people to that standard.

                3. fposte*

                  @AD–people have brought kids, sometimes kids who weren’t well, into my workplace. It’s worked well for us (though as I said, this thread is making me think I should put down some policies in advance of any GI invasion). So I’m not with you on that as a blanket statement.

                4. fposte*

                  @Jesmlet–norovirus is the leading kind of food poisoning, in fact, so that’s why it’s very similar to it :-).

                5. Amy The Rev*

                  @AD, from all the comments I’ve read, even the folks who have suggested that it’s very likely she didn’t realize the potential dangers of norovirus (or any illness, really) to an immunocompromised person, or who have given reasons why she may not be visibly/vocally contrite, are still doing so within the context that they believe that what she did was Not Ok. I have yet to see a commenter try to actually “avoid criticizing a parent”…could you point out which comments are advocating that we not criticize the woman in question?

                6. Natalie*

                  @AD, well, it’s a good thing I didn’t suggest or even hint that the kid should have been brought into work!

                  One of the primary threads of argument here is that everyone knows norovirus is super-duper serious or would have found that out by Googling, ergo this woman behaved so egregiously that she should have been fired. The fact that most reliable sources are not so alarmist about norovirus is a reasonable counterpoint to this. And as I said, to me, that is the difference between “dangerously negligent, should be fired, etc” and “serious error in judgment, have serious conversation with her”.

                7. Kathryn T.*

                  There are currently several outbreaks of a particularly severe strain of norovirus that are approaching epidemic level. One of my friends in a different state is at her wits’ end because her kids’ school declared an emergency 2-week quarantine closure in an attempt to stop the spread; several children and teachers had been hospitalized and they didn’t see that they had another choice. But now she has 3 kids under 10 with no school or daycare and a job that can’t be done remotely!

        2. JB (not in Houston)*

          You are reading a lot into the letter about what she “allowed” him to do and how serious she knew the problem was. We just don’t have enough information to draw the conclusions you and some of the others are making.

          I say this as someone who hates it when people come to work sick and who catches everything that goes around. I would be furious at the person. But quite a few commenters are projecting actions, knowledge, and intent on the woman with no basis for it.

          1. Temperance*

            I will concede that it’s entirely possible she was just not watching the kid and he got into the cake/food. Either way, her actions caused an outbreak of a serious, unpleasant illness that put another child in the hospital.

          2. Kate*

            She knew enough to hide her child from her employees, and to continue to hide what she had done (bringing a sick child to work) until a public health official caught her.

            1. PlainJane*

              This. I can’t speak for others, but I’d be less angry if she had had a mild case and come in herself (though that’s still not OK, but you could argue that she didn’t realize it was severe, and many of us have come to work feeling less than our best). But bringing in a sick preschool child (when she seemed to know she wasn’t supposed to) shows either a lack of judgment or a lack of concern for her co-workers. Then she compounded her carelessness by staying silent till she was caught. Preschoolers don’t belong in most workplaces. Sick children don’t belong in most workplaces. These seem like pretty basic principles to me.

      3. Rusty Shackelford*

        I agree, it’s possible she didn’t realize how serious norovirus is. After all, many posters here had no idea, and we’re all smarter than the average bear (yes, every single one of us). I don’t consider it a fireable offense (although I suspect she DID realize her sick child wasn’t welcome at the office, since she went to the trouble of hiding him, and therefore I think that’s a bigger work-related offense). Her remorseless attitude afterward is what bothers me.

    2. neverjaunty*

      Yep, this can be and is emotionally very difficult. Grown-ups have to do emotionally difficult things all the time in order to behave decently and responsibly. I get what you’re saying, but calling it “too” emotionally difficult pushes it into excuse territory.

      And there are people who simply don’t care about being jerks as long as they’re doing OK. Absent the development of mind-reading technology, there is no way for this woman’s co-workers to know which she is.

    3. BPT*

      Yes, exactly. I’ve could certainly see her mind working this way:
      -Gets told that her child is sick with norovirus, knows she has to finish some work that day, googles norovirus and see Wikipedia says, “The disease is usually self-limiting, and severe illness is rare.” Thinks, ok, I’ll just bring him in for a couple of hours, he’ll stay in my office and not come into contact with anyone else and I’ll leave as soon as I can.
      – Goes to the bathroom quickly and during that her child sneaks out of her office. She takes him home.
      -People at work start getting sick over the next 1-2 days. It’s flu season anyway, so she says to herself, “it’s most likely the flu or something else. Everyone brings in sickness during January. There’s nothing to definitely say it was my kid’s sickness. Right?” [obviously a lot of denial going on, but she wants so badly for it to not be her fault.]
      -Doesn’t say anything. Then the health officials come in and say it’s norovirus and presumably tell that it was her son that brought it. Then she admits to it when there’s no other explanation.
      -Feels so guilty and ashamed that she tries to avoid the topic and is just trying to keep her head down and not remind people of it.

      Sure, there’s a lot of denial going on here, but this seems to be just as likely an explanation as the ones that suggest that she’s a sociopath with no empathy and no remorse. Sure, she might be a horrible person. Or it might be this explanation.

      1. Jesmlet*

        Google also says it’s very contagious. There’s no chance that a toddler isn’t going to put his hands on something while in the office. Why not just take one of her many sick days?

        1. BPT*

          I’m not saying it was a smart decision – this thread has been over that SO many times. Literally nobody is saying that she should have brought her kid in. But there are plenty of things that are contagious that are not life threatening. And it’s a different possible read of the employee rather than “she has no empathy and doesn’t care and has no remorse.”

      2. Elizabeth West*

        This is why I think they should talk to her, even if they do decide to let her go. That way, they can figure out where the thought process went off the rails. It might just be her interpretation alone, or it might be something systemic–policy aside–and I would want to know.

        1. PlainJane*

          I agree wholeheartedly, especially with the last bit about something systemic leading her to think this was the right approach. Great point.

      3. neverjaunty*

        But she’s not just keeping her head down. She’s saying she thought it was no big deal.

        It is unlikely that she is a genuine sociopath. But from the OP’s point of view, she has an employee who had, and continues to have, extremely poor judgment. That means a serious talk to figure out if this person’s attitude has changed, and it also means that ‘poor thing, she feels terrible’ really isn’t a justification for acting as if it was no biggie.

        1. BPT*

          According to the letter, she didn’t say that the outcome wasn’t a big deal. She told the health officer that she didn’t think that bringing her child in for a few hours would be a big deal. That’s explaining her original thought process.

          There’s a big difference there – if she doesn’t still think that the outcome was a big deal, then yeah, that’s something to discuss. But the letter does not say that she currently doesn’t think it’s a big deal.

  15. Fiennes*

    To me it seems like there are only 2 possibilities:
    1) this woman has never had norovirus, her child hadn’t shown symptoms yet, and she genuinely didn’t understand how serious this is. Seems like a stretch, but possible. (I’m continually amazed how many people who’ve never had the flu think it’s just a bad cold. NO.)

    2) this person is so seriously lacking in judgment and/or consideration that I’d be surprised if there weren’t other red flags.

    Assuming it’s the former, she needs to make individual apologies to everyone affected, stress that she didn’t understand how serious norovirus is, and promise never to pull anything like this again. If it’s the second – you need to keep tabs, bc if she acted like this was no big deal, her priorities aren’t about the job & her responsibilities there.

      1. Christy*

        Truly. I’m not totally understanding the reactions that this woman needs to be fired. Obviously it was a lapse in judgment, but this doesn’t make her a sociopath. That said, the relationships definitely need repairing.

        1. Grits McGee*

          I can see the justification for firing on the judgement front thought. Imagine this was an unintentional but preventable accounting error that cost the business a huge amount of money, resulted in a audit, screwed up bonuses, etc. That error wasn’t made in malice, but the consequences and harm would still be plenty of justification for termination.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Even then, if the person has otherwise done excellent work, I wouldn’t necessarily jump straight to firing. You have to look at everything you know about them, not just that one mistake.

            1. Grits McGee*

              Oh sure, absolutely! I just wanted to make the point that this lady doesn’t have to be a mustache-twirling biological terrorist in order for a firing to be (potentially) justified. :)

          2. Lynne879*

            What is getting a lot of people in the comments section fired up is that it wasn’t just this woman’s coworkers who were sick- it was also a coworker’s sick child undergoing therapy who had to be HOSPITALIZED (!) and a second coworker’s ELDERLY GRANDMOTHER who also caught norovirus because of this woman’s severely poor lack of judgment.

            When the health of your coworkers’ family members have been jeopardized because of your poor decision, I can totally see justification in firing this woman, especially since she seems to have shown a complete lack of empathy.

            If the mother was horrified & extremely apologetic to the people & family members who were sick, I would argue not firing her because she acknowledged her mistake & will not do it again. But she hasn’t apologized. Her actions & lack of an apology have not only shown an extreme lack of judgment (I’m not buying the whole “She might have not known how contagious it was” argument. You’re telling me that your child has norovirus & you didn’t even bother to look up online how to treat it or if it’s contagious?? Or that if you took your kid to the doctor that the doctor didn’t tell you it’s contagious????), but her actions have endangered the lives of other people. I would argue that’s reason enough to fire her.

              1. Observer*

                You do realize that according to the CDC, norovirus is NOT the end of the world. A lot of people are acting as though this stuff were malaria, or Cholera or whatever. It’s not.

                And, for some people a cold is as dangerous as anything gastric, because for them anything respiratory is the really dangerous stuff.

            2. AMG*

              Seriously. That’s not difficult for someone with a moderate amount of common sense to figure out. It’s not about malice; it’s just basic decency. And the coworker has neither.

            3. SarahKay*

              We don’t know that she has been told about the co-worker’s child, or second co-worker’s grandmother. That may be to come, as part of the conversation that OP will have with her. We know that OP is aware, but both the co-worker’s report to OP; it might not be general knowledge in the office.
              She hasn’t said to anyone in the office that it was no big deal. OP’s letter says that she told public health that she thought it was no big deal, which to me reads that she didn’t think bringing the child into work for the day was a big deal health-wise.
              Yes, she was wrong, but wrong =/= deserving to be fired.

        2. Jessie the First (or second)*

          But she’s made no effort at repairing them, it seems. She put a kid going through chemo in the hospital because she brought her sick child to the office, and per the LW’s follow-up above, all she’s said so far is that she didn’t think it was a big deal. She endangered a child’s life, and not even an apology??

        3. JessaB*

          I’d agree with you except to point out that she kept her mouth shut during an investigation. After she was told there was an issue she never apologised, etc. I’m not sure I’d trust her judgement in the future because the LW has put in the letter absolutely no evidence to show that the employee changed or understood what she did was so wrong that it literally could have killed the kid with cancer or the grandmother. It’s not about bringing the kid which was bad but she might not have understood how bad. It’s about what she did AFTER that makes this a possible firing offence. She shows an enormous lack of empathy and willingness to admit wrong. If her next wrong is something that kills someone or costs the company half a million because she wouldn’t step up and tell them she made a mistake?

          disclaimer – I’m hella immunocompromised, so I may be biased here.

          2. Elizabeth H.*

            I think the lack of understanding, regret etc. is a serious issue, assuming she is aware that it’s her fault everyone got sick. She might be paralyzed by shame but even so she should at least express that she understands the consequences of her actions.

            If it was just a cold that went around the office and everyone was annoyed with her (everyone in my office recently got sick with a cold, I don’t really know who it came from but nobody got blamed) that’s one thing but given that this illness was so serious that public health investigated and someone’s relative got hospitalized it feels to me like she should express regret and understanding of what she did.

            1. Newby*

              I agree. Making mistakes happen. She should not be fired because she made one (serious) mistake. Maybe she should have known better but she didn’t and can learn from it. It’s the fact that it seems like she still doesn’t think it is a big deal that is the problem. Her coworkers need to be able to trust her to not do it again.

        4. Mirax*

          The thing is, I’m not sure those relationships CAN be repaired. I know that I would have an incredibly difficult time continuing to work with this woman if her actions had caused my family member to be hospitalized. She almost certainly didn’t have malicious intent, but that doesn’t change the outcome.

        5. Jesmlet*

          You should not have to tell a grown adult to apologize to her coworkers for making them all sick and endangering the lives of their loved ones. How does she not get this already? That would be a huge red flag by itself. Even if it was all a horrible mistake, I’d be so mortified I’d be apologizing every time I saw someone.

      2. The Optimizer*

        Plausible, but is it probably considering how much about norovirus is in the news for closing restaurants, generating lawsuits, turning around cruise ships, etc?

          1. ZVA*

            I didn’t know until this post. I’m sure I’ve heard the term “norovirus” before but I wouldn’t have been able to tell you what it was!

              1. Observer*

                I didn’t know about it till this thread. And, if her kid had ever had rotavirus, which is similar, she probably thought it’s much the same and how bad is it really. Because in most healthy children, it passes as long as you make sure the kid drinks.

                Not that it’s a good idea to being a kid with ratavirus into the office – or any sick kid. But, that’s not really the question. The point is that it is really common for even reasonably educated people to not be aware of this stuff.

              2. MegaMoose, Esq*

                Out of curiosity I asked my husband (who, like me, is an attorney) what he knew about norovirus and he said “isn’t that the virus that gives you colds”? So anecdotally at least, this appears to be not an uncommon belief.

          2. Lissa*

            Yeah, I thought it was food poisoning! (You’d think the “virus” part would’ve tipped me off, but I just didn’t think about it that hard I guess)

                1. Natalie*

                  “Food poisoning” isn’t one single thing – bacteria, viruses, and parasites can all cause foodborne illness.

          3. Regular Attendance*

            It is hard to know in the moment. Norovirus took both my husband and myself out a few years ago (I had to make an ER trip for fluids) and we had a baby in daycare at the time. Thankfully she didn’t get it and it didn’t come from daycare. But we were clueless idiots until it took us OUT.

            The coworker with the sick kid should know now though how serious this all is. Unless everyone’ shunning/freezing her so hard that she legitimately hasn’t heard of the full impact of her kid’s unauthorized office visit.

            2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              Ditto. I saw ‘norovirus’ in the title of the post and actually had to read into it before I remembered where I had even heard the word before. If someone asked me for details of it, on an average day, I would not have been able to get anywhere beyond “it’s… an illness, right? For people?”

          5. rozin*

            Same here. I’ve heard of norovirus in passing, but I’ve never gotten it before (and I hope I don’t anytime soon), and I had no idea it was so serious (I didn’t even know the symptoms). Granted, I’m one of the lucky types that rarely get sick, so the calls for firing feels very over-the-top to me. But I do agree she needs a stern talking to, and she should apologize profusely to her coworkers.

          6. Notorious MCG*

            I’m one of those people that until today was vaguely aware of norovirus as a thing. I’ve heard the news stories about restaurants/cruise ships etc, but until today never connected that it was more than just a stomach bug. But, additionally, if I were a parent and the daycare closed for an outbreak of a disease I wasn’t familiar with, I’d google it before deciding what to do with them. She had several lapses in judgment here. I’m on the come-to-Jesus talk team, but if she doesn’t show remorse I’d be extremely wary of her decision-making skills and her general empathy for her coworkers.

          7. Turtle Candle*

            Yep. Part of what’s amazing me about this thread is the assumption that the woman in question must have know how bad norovirus is, so she must have been doing something willfully awful.

            Truth is, I didn’t know what norovirus was until about two years ago, and I’m thirty-four. I think when I was about sixteen I asked someone what it was after seeing it mentioned in a book and they said “stomach bug” (possibly simply as shorthand, possibly because they didn’t know what it was either, I don’t know), and so I associated it with what I thought of as “stomach bugs”–a day or two of nausea and digestive upset and maybe some vomiting, unpleasant but sort of routine, like a bad cold. Saltines and Gatorade and a day in bed and you’d be fine, I assumed. Same way that it wasn’t until I was in my early 20s that I realized that “flu” didn’t just mean “really bad cold.” I am a well-educated adult who reads the news, and I still didn’t realize it, because there is a great deal of knowledge to know in the universe, and a lot of it, even a lot of important stuff, has never gotten to me yet. (And the things I don’t know I don’t know, I can’t look up.)

            And yeah, in that time I didn’t Google it, because… I thought I knew what it was. And contexts of conventions and cruise ships being laid low by norovirus didn’t clue me in either, because I just assumed that the virulent spreading and unpleasantness was at least partly simply because of a lot of people being in close quarters. I had no idea that norovirus was as virulent and as dangerous as it is until last year, and that only because a close friend contracted it.

            It may be that this woman had no excuse for knowing what norovirus is… but if that’s the case, then a LOT of us are in that boat.

        2. Blue Anne*

          I dunno, until this thread I just had it in my head as “contagious stomach bug”. I didn’t realize norovirus was so terrible. I’ve never heard any of those news stories.

          1. MegaMoose, Esq*

            Same here – I don’t watch/read local news or really pay much attention to health stuff related to kids, since I don’t have them and they seem to be little bags of disease all the time anyhow. I’ve heard of outbreaks on cruise ships, but I assumed that’s because of cruise ships being inherently gross as well. I’m glad I now know more about how serious norovirus is, but man, I didn’t expect the comment section to get this nasty.

        4. Emi.*

          I’ve never read about norovirus in the news. My baby sister had it once, and it was over in a day or two without touching any of the other eight of us. When I skimmed the CDC page, what jumped out was “You can become infected with norovirus by accidentally getting stool or vomit from infected people in your mouth.” So, yes, it’s totally plausible.

        5. MegaMoose, Esq*

          Also, it seems like a lot of these outbreaks get covered on local rather than national news, and I suspect there are plenty of people (myself included) who consider the quality of our local news to be so reactionary, low-quality, and often flat out offensive that we avoid it in favor of more widely-respected national outlets. I usually glance at the front page of my local paper when I walk past a newsbox on the way to work but that’s it. Out of curiosity, I searched the NYT archive for “norovirus” for the last 12 months and got a couple headlines that mention a “contagious virus” or “illness” in places I don’t live, a bunch of articles about Chipotle (I’d thought their issue was e-coli – shows what I know!), and something about the need to expand sick leave (appropriately enough).

            1. MegaMoose, Esq*

              Yeah, I knew it was bad, but not that bad – I hadn’t followed it that closely because I never eat there.

            2. Observer*

              So, I also thought their problem was e-coli. AND all of the articles I saw seemed to indicate poor food handling with a dose of food service people being expected to come in even when sick. That’s a recipe for trouble, with lots of less contagious diseases.

        6. boldlybookish*

          I discovered through this post (deciding to Google “norovirus” to see how bad it was) that I *had norovirus in December*. I thought it was a freak stomach flu (literally until an hour ago), but in hindsight it was BAD and the symptoms fit to a T. Doubly glad I was so sick I couldn’t go work, and I’m thankful the only poor soul I infected was my mother, who was visiting for Xmas :(. I’m a college educated individual who keeps up with news (I love morbid, weird stories… I’m casually interested in outbreaks, etc.)… and yet I had no specific, passing knowledge of norovirus, or that I had had it. But, that said, man, if someone said to me “your child has norovirus,” I would have Googled it stat. So I’m inclined to think she likely did know? Who wouldn’t immediately look up the contagious disease their kid has?

    2. Temperance*

      Actually, from the letter, we know that #1 is not possible. The woman was called to pick her child up from daycare because he was showing symptoms of norovirus. Her assistant confirmed this.

        1. Jessie the First (or second)*

          Possible, but not really likely if the child’s daycare communicates well – in my experience (and I know it’s only anecdotal) daycares really thoroughly explain the risk when it is a highly contagious illness – norovirus, whooping cough, etc. Anything really contagious and serious they explain the hell out of the need to keep the kid away from school and quarantine.

          Maybe she has a crappy daycare and they don’t say much so she didn’t know. But that’d be unusual, I think.

          1. Observer*

            You’re making a LOT of assumptions. Day care where the dangers or really dangerous stuff is explained properly AND the non-dangerous stuff is not treated like it’s terribly dangerous is the exception, not the rule.

        2. Betty*

          If daycare called me to tell me to pick up my kid & I was told they had NoroVirus & I did not understand what it was, I would find out. It is not that hard to get educated, you can ask daycare or even google it. It sounds to me that she did know & chose to act the way she did anyways. It is obvious by her actions that she did not care about infecting her coworkers or the consequences. I wouldn’t fire her but I definitely would make sure that there are consequences for her actions. She needs to learn from the situation & her actions/choices do have ramifications.

        4. Mary*

          I agree, from what I read of the letter it seems to me that she did not understand how contagious norovirus is and how badly sick people can get from it. Even after picking him up she may not have understood what he had and her actions were in ignorance rather than malice. Maybe this is why she felt it was “no big deal”.

        5. Snow*

          It also seems there has become a bad trend of people calling any stomach or gi issues Norovirus – the same way people call a bad cold flu which is minimising the impact for those who’ve only heard about it which may have also impacted how seriously people see it.

      2. NonProfit Nancy*

        Also, she might be like, “oh right, they say he has some symptoms but they’re always so overcautious, I’m sure he’s fine.”

        1. Mike C.*

          While all the folks with biology backgrounds are silently screaming, “THERE’S A REASON FOR THAT CAUTION”.

          1. Observer*

            All good and fine. But, most of the world does NOT have that background. And you also run into the issue of crying wolf. I do understand where it comes from, but it does create problems in terms of people being able to accurately asses the real risks.

    3. Cambridge Comma*

      I think it’s a useful distinction to make — you can have an incident of incredibly bad judgement without being a bad person. It’s how she acts now and how she responds to the OP’s questions that will show what she’s made of.

      1. BF50*

        I think she is using the flu as an example of another illness that people frequently underestimate the severity of until they’ve had it.

        Norovirus is to a stomach bug as the flu is to the common cold.

      2. SimonTheGreyWarden*

        Growing up where I used to live, anything that made you sick to your stomach – whether that was eating off food, an actual virus, a bacteria, etc – was all just called ‘flu.’ “So and so has a touch of flu and won’t be in today.” As an adult, I know that’s wrong, but I still hear my relatives call nausea/stomach bugs ‘the flu’ and cringe.

        1. Turtle Candle*

          Wow, I totally would not have guessed that this would become a 1,300-comment thread. I think the last time I’ve seen this site so mad at someone, it was the person who didn’t let their employee attend the college graduation.

          1. Turtle Candle*

            Oh gosh, I’m sorry, I meant this to be a wholly new comment and have no idea how it ended up here. SimonTheGreyWarden, this was absolutely not directed at you. (Also, as a Dragon Age fan, I adore your name!)

    5. eee*

      I think 1 is definitely possible, and a sit down talk with her might benefit by mentioning that it’s a serious illness. I could see her thinking it’s just a fancy name for a (cold/upset stomach/something unpleasant but pretty mild) and thinking her co-workers are just being weird babies throwing a fit that they caught a cold–colds happen! I had a friend, Sue, who misused the term “panic attack”: she used it superlatively to refer being mildly anxious about anything. Think “I had a total panic attack earlier because I thought I was going to be late for work” when Sue ACTUALLY meant she was briefly nervous her boss might be annoyed. A mutual friend was once incredibly rude and blase to someone who told him she was about to have a panic attack because he thought that the actual definition of panic attack was Sue’s “I’m a little stressed” usage. Of course, once he learned of his ignorance, he was incredibly apologetic, and that went a long way towards repairing the friendship.

    6. Kat A.*

      She still brought a child to work, which the OP said is something they don’t do. Plus, she let (or didn’t stop) her sick child interact with food at a potluck and be in a common area.

      And she probably knew about the coworker’s child with cancer. Geez.

    7. DCGirl*

      People tend to use “flu” to describe 24 hour tummy bugs. The real flu, influenza, is absolutely miserable. I caught Avian flu in the summer before it was included in the fall flu shot, and I was flat on back for a week. My husband e, was terrified when he came home one evening because I hadn’t even rolled over from the position he left me in when he went to to work that morning. I woke up to him shaking me because I think he thought I was unconscious or worse. Even when I went back to work, noncontagious, I still felt like death on toast points for a week. But, yes, I had a manager whose attitude was, “Well, it was just a little flu…”

        1. fposte*

          It can be, but I think the effort to move people away from casual use has obscured the fact that you can have a mild case of the flu, too.

          1. Emi.*

            And my mild flu could feel like a cold and lead to your terrible bedrest flu, so we shouldn’t forget about the mild flu.

      2. PlainJane*

        To lighten the mood: “death on toast points” is wonderful. I usually say, “death on a stick,” but I like yours better.

    8. Lora*

      Those two things are orthogonal. Someone can be ignorant/naive AND a ding-dong who couldn’t find their butts with both hands, a flashlight and an Eagle Scout, at the same time.

  16. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    If there was paid sick time that she had and could use without serious penalty (no partial pay or very angry boss), then she absolutely did an awful thing. In any case, she should apologize.

    I don’t get any PTO at all now, and only will starting this July, when a new city ordinance will force my employer’s hand. That time will equal out to about 30-40 hours PTO a year, depending on time worked.

    But for now, if I get sick, I still have to come in. I will try to contain germs, but if someone gets mad at me for it, I would encourage them to talk to the employer about policies, not get mad at me.

    Unlike some other people, I would be able to eat and provide for my basic needs if I were to be out for up to a week. But yes, I work unless I am puking multiple times, or fainting, because working full time lets me pay for my own medical care and make my daily life not crappy. I would get sicker if I had to stay out all the time.

    1. automaticdoor*

      LW above said she hadn’t taken a sick day for TWO YEARS so she wasn’t on notice for using too much or anything!

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Yeah, it’s just jerkish at that point. Since I don’t get PTO, I would probably have to load up on anti-nausea meds and wash my hands a lot and just work, if I needed more than 3-5 days.

        But you can’t just blithely refuse any time off! Especially not with this serious problem and a supportive policy.

      2. Allison*

        To be fair, that wasn’t apparent in the initial letter, and not everyone reads the entire comment thread for followup details before commenting. Maybe we should, but we’re only human.

        1. automaticdoor*

          I wasn’t being mean, I was just giving the follow-up info so overcaffeinated didn’t have to read up.

      1. zora*

        Seriously! I would have been in even more financial trouble when I got sick this summer, but thanks to San Francisco’s law, I had sick days even with a temp agency! It makes such a huge difference, I love this city.

    3. TCO*

      It’s worth noting that norovirus is wildly, wildly contagious, so people who might have it really should stay home. Hand sanitizer along isn’t enough. The employee in OP’s letter may not have known that, though.

  17. MH*

    It’s a shame that the letter writer is looking into options for what to do about the employee instead of looking at the policies that made the employee feel she couldn’t take time off to take care of her sick kid.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I think that’s unfair to the letter-writer, who mentions above that the employee has plenty of of sick leave saved up. Sometimes people make really bad choices; it’s not always that they were forced into it.

      1. Althea*

        I do think it would be useful for the OP to ask some specific questions around it though, to understand the employee’s thinking about (not) using sick days. It could turn up a variety of answers and be useful to reframe the employee’s thinking or improve how sick leave policies are communicated.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      It’s a shame you feel compelled to blame the employer for what is so obviously monstrously bad judgment on the part of the employee. The company offers paid sick leave and this sort of situation is precisely what sick leave is for. There is no excuse sufficient to make infecting an entire office with norovirus an acceptable thing to do, or to let the kid finger up the potluck food and coffee maker!

    3. The Letter Writer*

      With respect, as I said in my original letter and a subsequent reply we have paid sick time (no doctor’s note required unless it’s an especially long term absence – weeks, not a day or even a weeks). This employee had not used sick time in almost 2 years and had a full bank and would not have been penalized for taking sick time. She could have taken time off but she chose not to.

      1. Evergreen*

        I think it’s still worth probing a little – I know companies who say ‘no penalties for using sick time’ but then act in a different way when projects are assigned, or people are discussed in the office etc. it may be possible that her previous job was very much like this and she still carries that around a little. Or it could be possible that she worries about being perceived as less reliable now she has a kid. Or possible that she has internalised a lot of the messages we used to receive in school like perfect attendance awards etc.

        Reading your letter it sounds like you implement your sick leave policy well (and I think Alison’s answer is spot on) but your employee may be bringing a whole lot of other experiences to the table here that it could be valuable to understand.

    4. MuseumChick*

      According the the LW the company has a sick leave policy and the employee would not have been penalized for using it. The LW also mentioned up thread that this employee hasn’t taken a sick day in 2 years, thus was not in any danger of being reprimanded for using to many sick days in this instance. This seems to be a case of someone who either did not know or did not care how serious the virus can be.

      What really gets me is that a child going through chemo therapy was effected by this employee’s decisions to bring her sick child to work and allow him near food. Really bad judgement on her part.

      1. MH*

        Look, I’m sorry for being harsh. I saw that the letter writer (who responded… hi!) mentioned that the employee had a lot of sick time saved, but is she allowed to use it? I used to work in a place where I had a generous amount of time off. Everyone did. But using it? That was unofficially “frowned upon” and we were made to feel that even the shortest time off was not acceptable. I still have memories of being pulled into someone’s office and being told, “hey, since you took a half day a week ago, you really should offer to work this weekend to make up for it.” i took the half day off do go to the doctor. It was approved. A month ago.

        I apologize, I could have phrased it better: “Is there a culture in your office that made it appear as if the employee couldn’t use the time off being offered?”

        I do apologize for being harsher than I intended, I don’t apologize for saying that you need to look into the culture in your office that would lead them to think this needed to be done.

        1. BI developer*

          The letter and further comments say that it is OK to use sick time and no one would be penalised for using a few days, it seems like an employee problem not a manager or cultural problem.

        2. MuseumChick*

          Every indication we have from the LW points to this not being the case. The LW has stated several times the employee would not have been penalized for using sick time.

        3. neverjaunty*

          The OP has said both in her letter and in subsequent comments that there would not have been any penalty for using sick leave.

          1. Government Worker*

            I would be interested for OP to chime in more about this, because “no penalty” can mean many different things. Would the employee have had to work late or over the weekend to make up the work because a deadline was looming? Would anyone have made snide comments? Would missing days make her seem unreliable at a time when she’s up for a promotion or raise or key assignment? Did she have a big meeting coming up that she would have had to reschedule that would have set a project back?

            In my current job there’s truly no penalty. I was out for a day just last week and it was no big deal. But I’ve been in jobs where that was very much not the case, even if there was no explicit “penalty”.

        4. chomps*

          Right, but even in that case, it’s a huge assumption to think that the manager has any control over the sick leave policy. And as others have said the manager is perfectly fine with employees using their sick leave and it sounds like the company is fine with it as well.

        5. Jesmlet*

          Considering this: “pretty much everyone who works in my section was off sick from the norovirus at some point”, seems like employees can take sick time, but that’s just how I read it. Don’t think that’s the real issue here.

    5. Gigglewater*

      Based off of the letter and the few follow ups the LW gave, it seems that it was VERY outside of the norm for this employee to bring a child to work (as in this hadn’t happened before to the LW’s knowledge). To me that indicates that there’s not an issue with the policies but with this specific person and her interpretation of the office norms. It seems like she exercised fantastically poor judgement and needs to explained to her.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Even so, a conversation with her could suss that out–it very well may be a perception within her team, or just her. Or maybe she’s saving the sick time to add to a vacation. They need to find out exactly what set this off so they can adjust communication in future. That way, they can eliminate a possible issue. I do think it was just her, but if it were me, I’d want to find out for sure before taking action.

        It reminds me of an instructor I had in college–he said, “If a few of you mess up a test, I figure you didn’t study. If a bunch of you mess up, I figure I didn’t make the information clear enough.” He wanted to make certain that a problem wasn’t coming from him before it affected people’s grades. A form of CYA, as it were.

        In this case, I think it’s warranted because of the public health / possible legal consequences. They NEED to sit down and talk to her without yelling and get as much info as possible.

    6. LoiraSafada*

      Failing to read and understand the documentation likely provided to you when you started your job isn’t your employer’s problem. I’d love to know how she could be this obtuse regarding sick leave yet somehow think bringing a sick kid into the office was ok.

    8. Observer*

      I’m not in the “Burn the witch at the stake” camp. But seriously? The letter writer was explicit in the letter that the employee had time coming and would not have been penalized. Sure, it’s possible that there is something going on the the OP is not aware of that caused this woman to do what she did, but that’s far from obvious.

  18. Doodle*

    Oh gosh this is the worst. I taught at a summer program where a kid came to class knowingly sick with norovirus (no idea why he came — there were no penalties for staying back at the infirmary), and MAN was it hard to deal with the emotional fallout of spending the next several days absolutely miserable. Even when you know it’s not someone’s “fault” that you are sick, you still look for someone to blame — and in this case it *does* seem like there is some fault to go around.

    The only thing I might add is that I’m guessing the employee didn’t know how brutal/persistent norovirus can be? I know sometimes the daycare/school rules about when a kid can come back can seem overly cautious. If you didn’t know that those rules are designed basically entirely for this type of illness, you might not take them very seriously.

    1. Allison*

      You might not have penalized the kid, but some school nurses are awful. In middle school I went to the nurse with the flu, and she tried to make me go to my next class. I broke down crying and begged her to let me go home, only then would she let me call my mom. Maybe she sympathized with working moms who were always having to miss work because their sniffly kids couldn’t “suck it up.”

      1. Lissa*

        And some kids are just weird about stuff like that, for whatever reason. For me, it wasn’t the school — it was the reaction I was used to getting at home if I was sick as a kid that made me not see staying home for not feeling well as an option.

      2. AGirlCalledFriday*

        Yeah I have students every day who are ‘sick’, but then they are well enough to go to recess or gym or art class. It’s unfortunate that it penalizes the kids who are legitimately sick but you do learn pretty quickly that you can’t just trust the kids when you have their parents calling you up or visiting your class to yell at you for calling them out of work because their kid didn’t feel like being in school.

  19. Knitty*

    Wow! I used to work at a day care and this is such a big deal. We’d had outbreaks of Norovirus and whooping cough (separate instances). Both times we let parents know that they should quarantine their families for several days to keep from spreading the infections to others. I’m a bit stunned that she thought nothing of bringing him into work and then wasn’t even keeping close enough tabs on him that he got into communal food. Definitely have that conversation with her.
    Alison out of curiosity is this something that would make you question your employee’s judgment in general? Not suggesting it warrants official consequences at work, but more would that lapse stay on your radar?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It would indeed stay on my radar and make me more skeptical of her judgment in general. (Unless she genuinely didn’t understand how serious norovirus was, and once she saw the consequences was immediately horrified and profusely apologetic. Even then, though, if she truly was hiding the sick kid — and not just trying to keep him from distracting people — that’s an additional problem too.)

    2. I'm Not Phyllis*

      Yes – this. The agency I work for has a childcare component, and we always educate the parents about anything like this that may be happening in the child care centres. I’m sure not all of them do though …

    3. the gold digger*

      Slightly OT, but isn’t whooping cough something children are supposed to be vaccinated for? Do day cares require proof of vaccination? Just curious – I had to show my shot record before I could register for college and they made me get a measles booster.

      1. NW Mossy*

        Yes, but it’s not 100% for various reasons. In some states (including my own), you can opt your child out by signing a form. Sometimes, adults don’t get their boosters and can become a vector in a community. Heck, my own father-in-law had whooping cough about 10 years ago because he didn’t get a booster.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I got the boosters in 2015 before I went back to England, right around the time all those measles outbreaks were ramping up. They wondered why I wanted it, until I told them I was going abroad. I did not want to be responsible for bringing something back to work with me accidentally or unintentionally infecting anybody’s baby at the airport/on a train. But I don’t think everyone is aware they might need a booster past adolescence.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        Parents opt out. Kids get sick before they’ve been vaccinated. Vaccines are not 100% effective. The world is an uncertain place.

        1. Krayal*

          Yes well. Parents who choose to opt out should not be allowed to have their children at daycare. They are a million times more irresponsible than the OP’s colleague.

          2. Emi.*

            What about children who can’t have the vaccine because of allergies or other contraindications? Do you think they should be banned from daycare? That seems awfully hard on them and their families.

      3. Jenn*

        Geeking out here but pertussis (whooping cough) is a special case in that the original vaccine caused side effects, so then they developed a new one, but the new one actually wears off (which they did not know), so now there are boosters on the schedule. But those of us who were vaccinated in between and who have not gotten a booster can get it (I did which is how I know.) It’s a really important one too because it kills tiny babies who can’t get the vaccine yet or who haven’t had the second round.

        Search for Scientific American pertussis if you want the layman’s guide. (I am a layman. :))

      4. Jessie the First (or second)*

        In addition to what NW Mossy and Rusty say, there are some people who cannot get vaccinated for health reasons – often, particularly immune-compromised children. They rely on everyone else getting vaccinated in order to keep the disease away, and not everyone else does get vaccinated anymore because Jenny McCarthy.

      5. Liane*

        I’d have to check with College Son, to be certain, but I think colleges, like schools and daycare, probably allow opt-outs for, well, just about any reason. (Something that should change, but this isn’t the place for that discussion)

        1. Emi.*

          Not necessarily–my school straight-up wouldn’t let you live in the dorms without the meningitis vax, and they wouldn’t let you live off-campus as a freshman unless you lived with family.

            1. fposte*

              It’s state code in my state–as of last year meningitis, MMR, and Tdap are all required, and I’m not seeing that they allow any waivers.

              1. Emi.*

                Oh, yeah, I forgot the tdap–they wouldn’t let me register for classes senior year until I got my tdap booster.

      6. Bonky*

        Yup, it is. Here in the UK we’re meant to get immunised for it before the baby is even born (it protects them for the first couple of months), and then they have a top-up later on.

        When my husband was a kid, the whooping cough vaccine was a three-part vaccine. He had a bad reaction of some kind to the first vaccination, so his parents decided not to do the other two parts. Then they moved overseas. You can probably guess what happened next.

        He was so sick that the doctor told his parents to take him to the coast (they lived in Papua New Guinea when he fell ill) to make his dying easier in the moister air. We’re all absolutely blessed that he was an incredibly tough baby and pulled through. After that happened, his parents were assiduous about making sure he had all his vaccinations.

      7. Lora*

        The childhood vax only covers you until you are a teenager. You have to get booster DTaPs after that, and people are terrible at getting them.

        I had whooping cough as an adult after my childhood vaccines wore off, before the scientific community realized that the children’s vaccines weren’t forever. It was three months of coughing until I vomited and several days where I was so delirious from fever that I had no clue what year it was, let alone ability to drag my carcass to the bathroom. I caught it from taking my husband to the ER for a back injury and there was an elderly lady from a religious community that did not do vaccinations, who was being brought in for whooping cough complications. It was a busy ER, so she sat in the waiting room with us for several hours, spreading pertussis bacteria everywhere. I give you three guesses whether they had the time or ability to scrub and disinfect the area afterwards…

      8. Browser*

        The vaccine for pertussis (whopping cough), unlike many other vaccines, does not prevent the person from catching it. What it does do is greatly reduce the severity and contagion if the vaccinated person does catch it.

      9. a different Vicki*

        Most U.S. states allow religious or “personal belief” exemptions from school vaccination requirements (though private schools can make stricter rules if they like).

        I don’t know whether/how that applies to day care. I do know that when I needed a vaccine a few years ago, and went to the clinic run by the city Health Department at the end of the summer, everyone ahead of me in line was a child getting the required vaccines before school started, but those children may not have been enrolled in day care.

      10. Anono-me*

        I had all my shots, but I had to get the new immunization after exposure to whooping cough. The doctor said that there was a concern about the efficacy of one version of the vaccine.

  20. Trout 'Waver*

    Given the impact that this person’s poor decision making had on the rest of the team, for them to shrug it off as “not a big deal” completely undermines the rest of the team. Honestly, I’d fire them for it.

    How can you expect your team member whose kid was hospitalized to work with this person when they haven’t even apologized?

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Seconded. It would be very hard for a team to trust and work with this person again.

    2. Oscar Madisoy*

      I totally agree. If this person thinks her actions, which directly impacted on her co-workers and their families, are “not a big deal,” steps should be taken to fire her.

      1. fposte*

        That’s misframing what the OP said, though–the employee said she thought bringing the kid to work for a few hours wouldn’t be a big deal, not that it wasn’t a big deal that people got sick.

    3. Karanda Baywood*

      Exactly. The total lack of remorse (and emotional intelligence, because contagion) is breathtaking.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      How can you expect your team member whose kid was hospitalized to work with this person when they haven’t even apologized?

      And it’s not because of overwhelming guilt and an inability to face the suffering parent (because dang, that’d be hard), but she hasn’t apologized because she doesn’t think it’s a big deal. I wouldn’t expect her to be fired over it, but I’d have a hard time working with her again.

      1. Anna*

        Please see fposte’s response above. It’s not that she thinks it’s a big deal and callously shrugged it off. She didn’t think bringing the kid in would be a big deal. There’s a world of difference there.

    5. shep*

      I wonder if her “not a big deal” stance is more of a defense mechanism than what she actually believes. It is still a TOTALLY inexcusable stance to take, but I could see a person being so mortified that they immediately put up a wall of “well I didn’t think it was a big deal!” and clinging to that, even when it becomes clear that it was a huge deal.

      Which is not an excuse at all, of course. I’m just trying to wrap my brain around her reaction, because I would hate to think she is actually so detached from reality that she would legitimately think this.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Does it matter? The best-case scenario is that you have an employee who is emotionally unwilling to admit to a serious mistake that had very serious consequences.

        1. shep*

          It doesn’t matter, and I’m certainly not condoning her behavior, regardless of internal motive.

          But my graduate background is in creative writing, so I am always interested in character motivation, and wondered if anyone had had the same thought in regard to such a seemingly callous reaction from this employee.

          1. kb*

            I think there are probably two mental hang-ups making it difficult for her to apologize at this point:

            1) She’s thinking, “how was I supposed to know?” It’s hard to take responsibility for an outcome you didn’t even know was a potential consequence of your actions. I’m making the assumption that she isn’t knowledgable about public health, medicine, or anything like that. She likely wasn’t fully aware of what norovirus is, how contagious it remains even after the worst of the symptoms pass, and that there was a high probability of immunocompromised people at her workplace or in her coworkers’s lives. She made what she thought was an innocuous decision that ended up almost killing two people.

            2) She is likely a neutral person (I don’t know her, but I’m guessing) who made a terrible error, but when a person causes something terrible, it’s difficult to accept responsibility and simultaneously maintain that you are not a terrible person. It’s softer on the psyche to claim innocence of wrong-doing and therefore not be a terrible person.

            I’m not saying I approve of her choices– I can’t even say I understand her choices– but I do understand that it would be difficult to take responsibility for such grievous consequences to something that seemed so innocuous (to her) at the time.

    6. Amazed*

      I understand the anger involves, but I can’t see any manager reacting well to “You can have your login credentials back once you apologize to my son”.

  21. AnotherAlison*

    There is something that’s not connecting for me. First, the daycare banned the child from coming to daycare because he had norovirus, but the child was brought to work? If he was throwing up and symptomatic, how could he be hidden away in her office?

    To me, it sounds like what could have happened was that the child had a fever or something, the daycare said he had norovirus, come get him, and the mother doubted that he actually had norovirus. The way this timeline is playing out, it doesn’t sound like he had a confirmed/symptomatic case of norovirus when she brought him in. Still bad judgement, but she may not have understood the extent of the mess she was about to inflict on everyone.

    I might be wrong or missing something in the letter, but I am not ready to fire the employee like some folks here. I’ve been in the employee’s shoes, where even with generous sick time, your kid gets sick on the worst possible deadline day. I haven’t brought one to work sick, but I can sympathize with the predicament.

    1. NonProfit Nancy*

      It’s also true that daycares send kids home / won’t accept them for sometimes squirrelly reasons. If the mom had other experiences where the kid was fine but the daycare barred him, she may have assumed this was another such situation and that they were being overcautious. I think it’s hasty to assume she knew her kid had a highly contagious and potentially serious infection and brought him in heedlessly. She probably didn’t think he had it, didn’t think it spread that easily, and didn’t think it was all that serious. Still, having seen the consequences she needs to apologize.

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        If she wants to make that decision for herself, that’s fine. But she can’t make that decision for everyone else at work.

        If my coworker’s kid was exposed to norovirus, and was symptomatic enough to be kept home the next day, I would like to be informed of those two facts before the parent brought him to work, regardless of the parent’s beliefs.

    2. Leatherwings*

      Yep, I agree. If this were a pattern of bad judgement, that’s one thing. But firing based on one (yes, serious) incident seems unnecessary if she’s an otherwise good employee.

      To me, this is worthy of a serious conversation but not a firing.

      1. Mena*

        Her very poor, and self-focused, judgment put the lives of others at risk (yes, their lives). Of course her co-workers are furious and the supervisor needs to be more focused on THEM, and worry less that the source of this mess is being shunned. OP, be careful which side you take here – your team is watching.

        1. Leatherwings*

          Having a serious conversation about judgement and consequences + an office wide “no sick kids” policy is not taking sides with the parent of the sick kid.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      The way this goes in my mind is that the day care center had a norovirus outbreak, and told all parents to monitor their kids and quarantine them if they showed symptoms. The kid did, so the mom brought him to work instead of day care.

      Not all people who get norovirus are affected to the same degree. The kid could have had mild symptoms without throwing up. But it is very, very contagious, and can even be fatal to people with compromised immune systems or other challenges.

      1. Temperance*

        It’s actually in the letter that she was called to pick him up because he was showing symptoms of norovrius.

      1. Justme*

        Not that I’m excusing the woman who brought in a sick kid. But explaining that it’s not always straight to vomiting.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          Yeah, I absolutely understand how that could happen.

          But OP’s letter make me think that it was (eventually) confirmed that the kid had norovirus, and mom didn’t come back and let them know.

          Like, if he started puking two days later, went to the doctor and doctor confirmed it, she should have let the office know (same as if I or my kid had lice, chicken pox, pink eye, etc). Then some coworkers might have caught their (or family members’) illness earlier or avoided exposing them at all.

      2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Or he may have stopped throwing up and she thought he was fine. Norovirus sheds after obvious symptoms run their course.

    5. One of the Sarahs*

      With Noro, you can be infectious after the throwing up/gut issues – my friend’s a paramedic, and because of the risk to patients, they’re not allowed to be back at work until it’s been 48 hours after they last had an incident.

    6. LoiraSafada*

      Doesn’t mean he’s not contagious; in fact, he very clearly was. You don’t get to play Russian Roulette with the health of your coworkers and their families for your own convenience. Anyone that doesn’t attempt to take sick leave but thinks it’s appropriate to bring a child that was momentarily banned from daycare for an illness does not have the appropriate judgement for the job. And norovirus isn’t a fringe illness – it’s been in the news every year for as long as I can remember, from cruise ships to entire public schools falling ill.

  22. Allison*

    A lot of healthy people with healthy families often forget how catastrophic a “minor” illness can be for someone who’s not healthy. You never know if someone at work has a compromised immune system, or has someone at home who could get seriously ill if they get the flu, a stomach bug, or a respiratory infection. This is a big reason why everyone who can get a flu shot should get one, but I digress.

    If someone feels that they simply cannot miss something, they can convince themselves they’re not sick, or they’ve recovered enough to go about their business, or their kid won’t infect anyone so long as they stay put and don’t touch anything. Wishful thinking, we know. But if someone worked in a super strict environment before, or they have a task they have to finish today (or feel like they have to finish today) or they’re already behind, pushing a deadline, or they’re worried about running out of sick time, they could convince themselves a few hours really won’t be a big deal.

    Last week I started a new job with a terrible, wet cough because naturally, new people don’t have sick days and I didn’t feel like I could push my start date unless I was bedridden with something debilitating. But I also frequently doused my hands in hand sanitizer.

    If she’s learned her lesson, great. If she still stands by her decision, knowing the impact, you have a problem.

    If you put out a communication, don’t just say “you’re allowed to use sick time,” really take the position of “We don’t want your germs, keep them at home! Seriously!” and impress upon people the impact illnesses can have on people with compromised immune systems.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I like that last part – make sure people understand not just that they can use it, but that when they are sick or need to care for a child, they are EXPECTED to use it, and why.

    2. Elizabeth H.*

      I think this is a good point. If you already are aware that people in your workplace or their relatives are especially prone to severe consequences from illness due to preexisting health issues, it would be helpful to issue a firm reminder that sick time is to be used to prevent health consequences for others. Not that it’s the offices fault for not issuing the statement, but seems helpful.

  23. Hermione*

    As someone who spent half a week at home sick with the norovirus not two weeks ago – and who caught it at a birthday party from a kid whose parents also didn’t think it was a big deal for her to be out in public despite still feeling ill – I would also be angry at being unnecessarily exposed to it at work, at the mother for letting the kid near shared food instead of serving him herself (!!!) and for exposing my immuno-compromised family members by extension, and probably most of all for being blasé about it after the fact. If this were my co-worker I would want a sincere apology and a promise never to do something like that again before I could begin to trust her judgment.

  24. Graff*

    I am on the side of the coworkers with immune compromised loved ones-

    “One of my direct reports has a child who is undergoing chemotherapy and who had to be hospitalized when she got sick. Another gave it to his grandmother, who resides in a retirement home.”

    My husband has cystic fibrosis and even a slight cold from someone at work could have him hospitalized. I have dealt with my share of sick coworkers, and for the most part they understand as I have been very direct about my situation, but this coworker is what my nightmares are made of. I have gotten to the point where if my colleagues in my department are sick I bring everyone hot water with lemon and honey to help them get over it – sometimes, to me, it helps me feel like I’m in control of it in some way. I am so sorry your direct report decided to act this way and I hope this is a learning opportunity to her. No one could ever protect themselves 100% from all sicknesses, but I do think it would help if everyone would do their part.

    1. I'm Not Phyllis*

      Passing a virus on to someone like you would be my worst nightmare (and I mean that in the way that it could have life and death consequences, not as anything bad about you – you seem lovely). I used to work for an organization that raises money for CF and it really opened my eyes to the idea of invisible illnesses, and now this is one of the first things I think of when I decide to go to work or shopping or on the subway when I’m sick. It changed my perspective … I used to think a virus was “not a big deal” … and now I’ve amended my thinking to “not a big deal … to me.”

      1. EddieSherbert*

        +1o all around (Graff and Not Phyllis)!

        My brother had leukemia, and he caught pneumonia… it was truly terrifying. Several weeks in the hospital and a lot more paranoia for all of us afterwards.

  25. HR @ xyz College*

    There are industries where this could have been catastrophic. I work in food service on a college campus. Our Employee Reporting Agreement specifically states that if you’ve been in contact with Norovirus, we need to know to take precautions to keep the rest of campus safe.

    I think this is an opportunity for people who didn’t know how big a deal Norovirus is to become more educated and share with others that sometimes, things are Big Deals, and if we don’t know, we should never assume it’s nothing big.

    1. Helen*

      A college in my town just had an outbreak that sickened over 200 people and sent some of them to the hospital. The outbreak started in a residence and spread like wildfire. Norovirus is a serious thing.

      1. the_scientist*

        Hello, fellow Torontonian :) If you ever needed proof of how serious and contagious Norovirus is, that outbreak is a fantastic case study.

      2. I'm Not Phyllis*

        That happened here too (or possibly we live in the same town!) – it’s a scary thing when it spreads that quickly.

    2. Temperance*

      I received norovirus from a Lunar New Year banquet a few years ago. It was awful and disgusting; over 100 attorneys and law students reported symptoms, and apparently a wedding rehearsal dinner was also at the restaurant that night.

      I somehow managed not to infect my husband or friends (who I unknowingly could have exposed, because we had a game night event the day after my exposure), but many of my colleagues weren’t so lucky. Some people went to the hospital, others infected their family members before realizing that they were ill.

      I’m still angry that the restaurant wasn’t shut down permanently by the Philadelphia Health Department.

      1. Triangle Pose*

        Are you also angry that the organization continues to have the event at this same venue? If you’re talking about the same event I reaad about in the paper, it’s still at the same place. I missed it the year everyone got sick.

        1. Temperance*

          LOL oh no – I’m going this year (this week!) and I was told it was specifically NOT at that restaurant. It’s very likely the same event you’re thinking of. Such a cool event and an important one … and I regularly wish bad things on the jerkass who runs that restaurant for accusing us all of not wearing coats and drinking too much when it was 100% her fault.

          1. Triangle Pose*

            Oops! My fault, I totally mixed up my Lunar New Year Banquets, you are totally right, it is NOT at the same venue this year. I am trying to go to this one as well but I was just at a separate bar association lunar banquet last Friday so I might stay in. Have fun!

            2. Temperance*

              We were at the same event, Triangle Pose! It was such a nice time. (My firm has some attorneys very involved in APALSA and APABA, so we end up with tickets to many of these banquets.) Besides the norovirus nightmare, they’ve all been wonderful.

              I did want to crawl under my desk when my boss, who was NOT at the norovirus banquet, couldn’t stop laughing when she was reading an article about it on philly.com. She wasn’t laughing at our misfortune, but the very graphic description of one person’s illness.

    3. Izzy*

      People outside of food related occupations or public health need to know how serious this is. Unfortunately they don’t. At my job at a grocery store, when I started I had to sign a paper stating that I had not been in contact with anyone who had norovirus (and several other highly contagious diseases) in the past five days, and that I understood that coming to work within five days of exposure to someone with one of them was grounds for immediate termination. Even if the child didn’t have norovirus, they’d been around other children who did (and as one commenter said, kids touch everything), and still could have spread it. If this were my child, I’d have to stay out of work for five days because I had been exposed. This stuff is very dangerous in living facilities for the elderly. And unbelievably contagious. In my public health days, there was an outbreak at a casino traced back to a card dealer who was not symptomatic but had been exposed. Everyone who touched the cards they dealt got sick, as well as others the card players spread it to.

  26. Cheesehead*

    I can sympathize. I was working in a satellite office (kind of informal) with a small staff when one of my coworkers brought his son into work with him when the son had chicken pox.

    I’d never had chicken pox.

    To his credit, coworker seemed appropriately moritified when he found out that I’d never had chicken pox and that he’d exposed me, and tried to keep his son away from me in a back room. He was further mortified a week later when I had to come home early from a business trip because yup, I got chicken pox. As an adult. Not fun.

    Even then, I could sympathize with the ‘no child care’ thing when you have a sick kid, but geez, he should’ve taken him home immediately when he found out that I didn’t have the immunity. But this was with chicken pox, where the assumption was, back then, that it was a childhood thing and that you can’t get it again, so basically the adult population was ‘safe’. So he probably thought he was safe in bringing the son to work b/c to him, the son wasn’t contagious b/c there weren’t any other kids around.

    But with norovirus? No, that argument just wouldn’t work. It seems like the mom had her blinders on or tried to justify it by saying she was keeping him in the office most of the time. That’s just …. wrong.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I had a coworker who brought her child to work with chicken pox, and was kind of befuddled at my reaction.

    2. Nicky in Scotland*

      Not only does chicken pox suck when you’re an adult (I caught it at 25, so totally sympathise), but I also believe it is possible to have more than once, is particularly bad to expose pregnant women to, and I think people who suffer from shingles are also advised to avoid it. So three good reasons to keep chicken pox quarantined! Sadly I just felt mysteriously crappy for about a week before the spots came up, so I may have been an unintentional passer-on before I knew what the cause was! However I was effectively a hermit until my spots went away.

    3. Lucy Honeychurch*

      Wait, is it weird to never have had chicken pox? Isn’t the vaccine required for kids? I sort of thought chicken pox was an old-timey illness like mumps or whatever that no one got anymore; I don’t remember anyone ever being out from school with it when I was a kid.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        If you’re of a certain age, you probably had it as a child. If you’re younger, you were probably vaccinated, and I can’t even tell you how many people I know whose vaccinated children got chickenpox anyway. Typically a milder case than it probably would have been otherwise, but still. The chickenpox vaccine isn’t even close to 100% effective, and if I remember right, it requires a booster that many people probably don’t get.

        (Did I vaccinate my kid anyway? You know it.)

        1. Zahra*

          I haven’t vaccinated my kid for it yet, even though he’s been vaccinated for everything else (he’s 5). I’m waiting to see if he’ll catch it by himself.

          A big part of why is that we don’t know yet if this is one of the vaccines that will need a periodical booster. Many signs point to that, however. And if you look at the rate of adults getting their 10-year tetanos booster, you can understand why I prefer him catching it (even with the added risk of getting shingles later in life) to giving him the vaccine (that he may not keep up to date once he’s an adult).

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            Yes, catching it as a child might be the best case scenario (unless your child ends up being one of those who get horribly sick from it), because it provides better immunity than the booster (and that’s assuming you get the booster). But it’s harder to catch it as a child now, so it’s kind of a catch-22.

              1. I'm Not Phyllis*

                Yep – and just a heads up that adults with shingles can mean chickenpox for kids. I know it should be a no-brainer but I never considered it until my mom had shingles and gave them to my then-16 year old sister who had never had them!

              2. Zahra*

                Yeah, but downsides to not getting the vaccine booster is getting chickenpox itself. Considering the existing vaccine boosters have about 10% of adults (off the top of my head) who are up-to-date, I’d rather take the shingles (which I’ve only seen happen to people with very weak immune systems due to illness or stress).

                2. fposte*

                  Yeah, that’s not true at all about shingles. And they are really pretty miserable to have, from all accounts; you can even get ocular shingles, which is just evil.

                4. Anon for this*

                  Agreeing that the shingles risk is a pretty big downside. I had shingles when I was 27, and I cannot overemphasize how unpleasant it was. Two solid weeks of feeling like every nerve was on fire, and lingering pain for about a month after. And I was otherwise healthy and had a relatively mild case. To each their own, but I would take the vaccine a hundred times over.

            3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              Yep. I caught it as a child and honestly didn’t even notice — I had no idea until months afterward, when I innocently mentioned to my mother that the mosquitoes had been really bad at Grandma and Grandpa’s that summer, and she laughed at me and told me I’d been sick.

          2. Notorious MCG*

            Funny story: my brother once got chicken pox either while we were on a family vacation or just before it. My mom thought, ‘Well they’re not in school right now anyway, might as well get it out of the way with MCG as well.’ So she put us in the same sleeping bag for naptime for a day or two. Somehow my body is just anti-chickenpox though so I never got it and she ended up having to get me vaccinated.

          3. TootsNYC*

            If he’s 5 now, he’s very, very UNlikely to catch it by himself. Because everyone around him will have been vaccinated. If you want him to have immunity as an adult, you should talk to your doctor about the vaccination.

            I know people who did what Notorious MCG’s mom did–they put all the cousins into one big bed on a sleepover so they would all get it, and get over it, as kids.

            1. Zahra*

              I know he’s unlikely to catch it by itself, but it’s not a zero chance. I’ll still wait for the vaccination.

              1. PlainJane*

                Your child, your business, but I had it at 13, and it was horrible. Not as bad as getting it as an adult, but I have quite a bit of scarring (thank goodness not on my face) and was really sick. I’m not sure at what age it goes from “unpleasant but tolerable” to “kill me now,” but it’s sometime sooner than when I had it.

                1. Zahra*

                  Good data point! I was thinking before he goes to high school, which is around 12 here (no middle school). Sounds like that’s still a good plan, but maybe around 10 rather than 12 as I had originally planned on.

                2. Emi.*

                  My old pediatrician says that chickenpox has gotten more virulent since the vaccine became more widespread. Not sure how that lines up with your timeline but it might explain part of it.

                3. PlainJane*

                  @Emi, I had it long before the vaccine was a thing–in 1980. It was virulent enough then. Ugh.

          4. Former Shingles Sufferer*

            You can actually get shingles without having had the chickenpox, if you’ve had the vaccine. I had chickenpox as a child, and had shingles before I was 30. A small child in my extended family got shingles, having had the chickenpox vaccine, not the actual illness. So shingles is a risk either way.

      2. Elizabeth H.*

        I was born in 1987 and I am pretty sure I got vaccinated for it at some point, although to my best knowledge you can get it more than once and it is technically possible to get it even if you are vaccinated. (I think I only got one of the apparently 2 doses you are supposed to have) My mom tried to have me catch it once, but I didn’t and I’m not sure if it was just chance or if it was after I’d been vaccinated and she didn’t realize. There are some people I know around my age who had it as a kid, but not very many, I feel like it was kind of a tipping point for having had it or not. I think the vaccine came out in 1995 so makes sense.

        1. Kimberlee, Esq*

          Yes, you must be super close to the tipping point; I was born in 85, and my little sister in 86, and we both had chicken pox when we were young, before the vaccine even existed. The vast majority of our friends/classmates got it too. But even then, when I had it, it was understood that you should try to get it as a child, because it’s much much worse for adults.

        2. Triangle Pose*

          I was born in 1988 and I thought the vaccine didn’t exist when I had chickenpox in preschool…I didn’t realize I was close to the cusp at all.

        3. I'm Not Phyllis*

          You can. My sister got them at 16 (she had been vaccinated) from my mom who had shingles. On the positive side, it was a much milder case than she probably would have otherwise had.

      3. neverjaunty*

        Lots of people get those “old-timey” illnesses, in part because people think nobody gets them anymore and so vaccination rates are below what they should be.

        1. Natalie*

          That is not, however, the case with chicken pox – the vaccine has only been available in the US for about 20 years and I don’t know if it was commonly given right away. Being vaccinated for chicken pox rather than getting it as a child is the new thing.

          2. Formica Dinette*

            Really? I know I’m old, but I didn’t know there was a chicken pox vaccine. Maaaan, kids these days have it easy!

      4. DCGirl*

        The vaccine was licensed for use in the US in 1995, which means that most of the people who’ve received it are 21 and under and not really in the workforce. There are generations of people in the workforce who either had it as a kid and are now immune or who somehow managed to miss it and never had it.

      5. chomps*

        The vaccine didn’t go into widespread use until 1995. I got chicken pox in 1994 and when I found out I’d just missed the vaccine I was kind of annoyed. :-) So a lot of people in their early 30s and up may not have had chicken pox or the vaccine.

        1. OfficePrincess*

          I totally understand that annoyance. I had chicken pox the week before my checkup where I would have gotten the vaccine. And thus began my luck of catching everything.

        2. AKJ*

          I got chicken pox in 1995, I didn’t even know there was a vaccine then! I was 17, though. It was a horrible experience – I was off school for two solid weeks right in the middle of my senior year of HS, and I was sicker than I’d ever been before or ever have been since. It was brutal.

      6. Liane*

        Just looked it up (immunize dot org), the earliest chickenpox vaccination was mandated in the US was 1997 (Wash., DC) and in most states it was after 2000. Some states only began requiring it in the last 2 or 3 years! It wasn’t required when our 2 kids were born, but my husband and I agreed even before we had them that our kids were getting all the recommended as well as required immunizations.

      7. Evan Þ*

        The vaccine was only developed in the mid ’90’s. I got the disease first; my younger sister had the vaccine.

      8. Alli525*

        I was born in 1986, my brother in ’90, and both of us caught it in … ’92 or ’93, I think. My mother is a nurse and we got ALL the vaccines that were standard back then, so the chicken pox vaccine may not have been mainstream yet. (I’m basing this on Elizabeth H’s comment above mine.) I’m sure it’s required now, but the vaccine is pretty new.

      10. Jesmlet*

        It wasn’t licensed for use in the U.S until the mid 90s and I’d guess not many people vaccinated their kids with it back when it was first introduced. I had the chickenpox when I was 5 which was around the time it started being used over here and it was fairly common for kids to get it back then.

      11. Elizabeth West*

        There was no vaccine for it when I was a kid. We all three came down with it at the same time–my sister and I both had horrible cases, and my little brother got off light. My poor mum was up all night for a week taking care of us. And guess what? She ended up with shingles later. :(

        To make it worse, we got it right near Christmastime. I was nine, and I remember because my fourth-grade class all made get-well cards for me with Christmas trees and stuff on them (aww). We had a wonderful teacher that year.

    4. NGL*

      As another person who never had chickenpox as a kid (somehow I managed to avoid it even though my brother had it), I am terrified of catching it as an adult.

      1. ali*

        Tell your doctor that you’ve never had it. You can still get the vaccine as an adult (my husband has never had it but has received the vaccine). It’s not a catch-all, but if you DO get exposed having had the vaccine as an adult will make it much easier.

      3. Poppy*

        Definitely look into getting the vaccine! Chickenpox is one of those illnesses that is miserable to have as a kid, but it can be downright dangerous to have as an adult.

      4. the_scientist*

        You should absolutely consider getting the vaccine!

        Where I am I don’t think it became widespread until the late 90s, and now I’m not sure if it’s mandatory or only recommended for young children. My sister was born in 1996 and got chicken pox in Kindergarten (same age as when I caught it) so it was still a common childhood illness at that time. I had a pretty severe case of it so I’m on board with getting my hypothetical future kid vaccinated so they don’t have to know the misery.

        1. NGL*

          I’d been told it was only effective in kids! Maybe that was an earlier version (no kids myself yet, so no need to stay up on the latest in vaccine developments!). I already have a doctor’s appointment in a few weeks, I’ll bring it up then.

        1. Tau*

          Chicken pox scar buddies! Although in my case I don’t remember a thing, as I apparently caught it at the age of 2 months or something similar. (Getting it over with quickly?)

        2. No Name Yet*

          Another chicken pox scar buddy! Right between my eyebrows, almost exactly where a bindi would be if I were Hindu. I’m mostly amused, with an intermittent side-eye at the after school teacher who told me that if I had something that itched I should scratch it. (Presumably and ‘stop bothering me about it,’ as I’m sure my 8-year-old self was persistent about it.)

    5. Lisa from scenic Michigan*

      Slight tangent:
      FYI: I was born in the 70’s, and never had chickenpox as a kid.
      I was vaccinated as an adult, after a blood test to make sure I didn’t already have the antibodies. It was a two shot series, and it hurt like heck. But, I CERTAINLY didn’t want to get sick as an adult. Something to look into.

      I work in higher ed, and I get All The Vaccines. Because college students are icky.

    6. PK*

      I remember my folks purposefully exposing both myself and my sister as children with some other family friends to chickenpox like a weird disease party. This was back in the early 80s.

    7. Cheesehead*

      FYI….This happened in the mid 90s. There was never a vaccine when I was a kid. It was just one of those things that most kids (except me) got. I had my first child in ’99 and he caught chicken pox as a baby (not quite 7 months old, so before he could have been vaccinated). He didn’t have a very bad case and I think it was because he got some of my antibodies since I’d had it relatively recently.

  27. AnonEMoose*

    Others have already pointed this out, but she could have killed someone. I have a very close friend who is seriously immuno-compromised. I don’t even go see her if I have a cold. Because she is that fragile. My mother’s health is a fairly delicate balance, and my father is fairly healthy, but is now over 80.

    I would have a very, very hard time forgiving someone who knowingly exposed me to this and put me at risk of passing it on to any of them. Staying away from her for a few weeks would be the best thing I could do for our working relationship, because otherwise, I would have a very difficult time not informing her of the potential consequences of her actions. Loudly. I try not to hold grudges, but this one would be difficult for me. What she did was stunningly selfish.

    If/when you talk to her, Letter Writer, it might be good to point out to her that she has seriously damaged her coworkers’ perceptions of her, and that’s going to take time to repair, if it can be. And there’s only so much you can do about it – while you can and should require others to behave professionally and politely, you can’t make the social consequences of this one go away.

    1. Mononymous*

      Yeah, I’m sitting here in the middle of a pretty serious Crohn’s flare, trying to imagine how norovirus would affect me. It almost doesn’t bear thinking about. Forget just hospitalization, a perforated bowel and the resulting emergency surgery is a real possibility for me right now.

      I don’t know if I could bring myself to have a warm working relationship with this person ever again, but if she didn’t even acknowledge what she did and apologize? Coolly civil would be a stretch.

      1. ali*

        Same. I’m likely headed into a strictureplasty in a couple of weeks. I feel you. And would never, ever be able to trust this person ever again.

  28. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

    RE: comments about her not knowing what/how bad norovirus is…

    I really, really hope nobody takes this as a personal indictment, because it truly is a societal problem we have and you shouldn’t feel personally bad about it….but, man, the general state of health knowledge in our culture is sad. Even among people who are educated but have no biology/medicine background, the level of ignorance is high. I feel like many people get no good information about how to treat, cope with , and prevent minor illnesses and injuries, and have no protocol to deal with illness in a way that maximizes their own recovery and limits its spread to everyone else.

    1. Cristina in England*

      Yes. We should be able to expect someone to wash their hands, avoid people when they’re sick, and DON’T TOUCH COMMUNAL FOOD WHEN THEY HAVE NOROVIRUS!

      1. Formica Dinette*

        Alas, we can’t really expect people to wash their hands. I’ve worked in health care and based on the attitudes I’ve seen to hand hygiene programs, most of the people making the potluck food didn’t wash their hands at all, let alone properly.

      2. a different Vicki*

        That’s not just an education issue, either. It has proven difficult to get doctors, nurses, and other hospital staff to wash/sanitize their hands as often as they’re supposed to. Reasons include both being busy enough that they’re trying to save seconds, and the effects of skin of hand washing that frequently. And that’s with people who understand why hand washing matters.

        1. Kimberlee, Esq*

          Yeah, when I worked foodservice I always washed diligently, but it dried my hands out severely, to the point where I needed to keep hand cream at work because otherwise my knuckles would crack (and, of course, blood seeping from your hands is probably the only thing worse than simple unwashed hands).

          1. fposte*

            Right, you’re more likely to carry stuff around if you’ve washed nooks and crannies into your skin. I don’t know if anybody’s run the numbers to determine whether it’s still better to wash in and wash out on every patient encounter, but it’s possible that the skin damage loses more than the multi-washing gains.

        2. Kathryn T.*

          My mother worked in a hospital for a while (in the research wing) and they were having a really hard time getting all the clinical staff to wash their hands as much as they should … until they took surprise culture swabs of everyone’s hands one day and then used an image of the resulting Petri dishes as the desktop wallpaper on all the office computers.

    2. Karanda Baywood*

      If someone told you there was an XX outbreak at daycare and your child was exposed, wouldn’t you — at the very least — Google it?

      2. TL -*

        Probably, eventually, after I left work, wrapped things up, picked up/took care of sick kid, called my spouse, arranged things for other kids, stopped by CVS for meds…

        It would be one of those things you did when you have a moment, which is usually not when you’re right in the middle of dealing with a sick kiddo.

        1. Temperance*

          Really? You wouldn’t check it out before going to CVS or making arrangements, so you would have all the information of what specific arrangements needed to be made?

          1. TL -*

            I don’t have kids but of the people I know who do, this is the sequence of events: get kid, buy meds, ect.., for symptoms, arrange the rest of the day to make up for the fact that your plans got FUBARed, get essential stuff done, then google, call pediatrician, whatever.
            If the kid is not sick enough to go to doctor but too sick for daycare (which it sounds like this kid was), that’s generally the sequence of events.

    4. A Person*

      I’m terrified. There’s been big issues with sepsis in the UK recently and reading about it, I’ve been ‘Why was this never brought up in health class?’

      Even medical professionals do it. I got into an argument with a Pharmacist one time because they were giving me antibiotics when the Doctor had told me I had a bad cold. They did call the Doctor who took it off the prescription but still, I was all WTF.

    5. Bonky*

      Hear hear. Science education is part of what my company does, and I am often horrified not only at the levels of ignorance out there, but of how *proud* people sometimes are to be ignorant. They’re not nerds, you see. And not understanding this stuff is a terrific demonstration of the fact.

        1. TL -*

          To be honest, the reaction of this comment section to not knowing what norovirus is (not all but definitely a good-sized, loud section) is more or less actively discouraging people who don’t know from coming back.

          When I don’t know something and people’s reaction to not knowing X is, “Oh my god, everyone knows X! You’re just stupid/lazy/ignorant” that is not a) people I want to talk more to b) going to make me confidant about pursuing more information on the subject.

          1. Mazzy*

            I agree this is the first time I’ve heard the word. Am I ignorant? No. I read ALOT. I have never seen the word. If it’s such a basic piece of human knowledge, why isn’t it all over the newspapers or internet? Because I do read a newspaper or two 5-7 days per week.

  29. I'm Not Phyllis*

    There was a norovirus outbreak at a local college here not long ago – I think something like 200 people fell ill in the space of 24 hours. It was on the news here where they said it is highly contagious and they were asking people to stay home for at least 48 hours AFTER their symptoms had cleared. I’ve never had it but it doesn’t sound like something I’d want to mess around with. If I had received that kind of call from my child’s school, I’d consult Dr. Google to at least check what I was dealing with – if you don’t know anything about the virus that your child may potentially have, the very least that you should do is research or a quick call to a clinic if you’re able.

    I can completely understand having a lapse in judgment. The part that baffles me is her reaction of thinking it wasn’t a big deal, and the fact that she doesn’t seem to have apologized to anyone! That’s the part that makes me give the shifty eyes.

    2. HW*

      Yes, that’s what I’m finding most mind boggling. I don’t have kids but I have a mother who once the internet became an in-the-home norm googles every illness anyone in my family comes down with so I can’t imagine anyone not doing a cursory look.

  30. Cristina in England*

    I’m in the camp of firing her, depending on the outcome of your conversation. Maybe she’s embarrassed and has no idea how to cope with being so spectacularly in the wrong. Maybe she doesn’t understand how germs are spread. Maybe she is one of those people who think that getting every single illness going is inevitable when you have small kids (I hate this line of thinking!). In the end she needs to make amends or face serious consequences. Even giving her a generous benefit of the doubt, how she handles this will speak to how she would handle a mistake at work generally, and will speak volumes about her character.

  31. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I’m in the middle on sick kids or coworkers coming to work. My friend’s fiancée cannot take many common OTC meds and catches things easily, due to cancer as a kid. And if I catch anything respiratory worse than a cold, I’m rolling the dice on getting really sick. Something like whooping cough or TB (yes, lawyers can catch that from detainees and such that they might work with pro bono), could kill me.

    But I’ve also experienced several months of wrenching poverty before being licensed as a lawyer, since I was unemployed but my spouse’s income was just above the threshold to qualify for benefits. And I live in a mid-high COL area. My spouse absolutely went to work sick during that time, because she did not have PTO until a certain length of time at work, and we needed to make sure we (and cats) could all eat. And all the pantries/clothes programs near to us were religiously based- being obviously not-straight, we never went.

    And anyway, in-kind donations don’t pay bills, and you never know someone’s finances. This is why PTO should be for everyone!

    2. Manders*

      Yeah, I’m another person who’s been on both sides of the issue. Right now I’m in a position where I have only a small amount of PTO in one bucket, and my mom has a fatal disease and lives 2,000 miles away from me. A lot of my coworkers have to make similar decisions about seeing family vs. infecting the office. I would love to have enough PTO for us all to feel comfortable taking sick days, or for separate sick and vacation time buckets. Working from home isn’t an option, so nasty colds circulate around the office all winter because no one’s able to stay home until they’re not infectious.

      In this case, the employee had PTO and chose not to use it. I don’t have a ton of sympathy for that, although I suppose it’s possible that she didn’t understand how serious norovirus actually is.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      This is a bit off-topic and I’m only posting this so people in your situation might in the future get the help they need. But I’ve volunteered in a religious based food pantry from a church that, on paper, was anti-queer. The majority of the congregation was pro-LGBT rights and 100% of the people who actually worked in the food pantry would have helped anyone regardless of any identity status. I know some religious-based charities are very closed minded, but they are the exception.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        That’s great, but I think the problem is, queer or other marginalized people in need may look up or ask around about orgs, and see online “oh, X and Y are anti-whatever, they won’t help.” It’s too shaming and a waste of resources (gas or time or energy), to get there and possibly be refused.

        If a charity wants to help anyone and everyone, it’s really helpful to state that on the website or signs or etc.- say anyone can use it, no income, religious, or identity restrictions. And don’t make attending church services or what have you a requirement to get help.

  32. Esperanza*

    Can companies create and enforce a policy of not allowing people with certain illnesses to come to work? I’ve been wondering about this since one of my co-workers has been coming in with a fever because she doesn’t want to use her sick days (our office culture does not frown on sick days at all; we encourage them).

    I’m pregnant and honestly pissed that she is exposing me to a fever-causing illness. But I don’t know if I have any grounds to object.

    1. Temperance*

      My office has a policy that you have to stay home with the flu or 24-hours after any fever. If you report off with the flu, they disinfect your workspace.

    2. Gigglewater*

      I think in this case you should maybe go to your shared manager and say that because you’re pregnant you’re uncomfortable working with someone who has a fever-causing illness so on the days she’s in the office you’re going to ask to be able to work elsewhere or work from home. Hopefully, the manager takes this as the point that you’re trying to make, which is sick people should stay at home in your office.

    3. DCGirl*

      There was a post a few weeks ago from someone who was sent home because she was getting over a cold, which led to a huge amount of debate over how you enforce those policies (encompassing employee privacy, forcing people to pay for doctor visits to get “well” notes, discriminating against people with allergies who sniffle all the time….) It’s not as easy as you would like it to be.

      1. Emi.*

        If a simple cold warranted isolation, I wouldn’t set foot outside my house from January to March.

    4. Relly*

      This post is making me feel hugely guilty about all the times I go into work sick. But: I work part time shift work, no PTO, in a job where anyone calling out leaves the office scrambling for coverage. Our manager has actually asked us explicitly to come in while sick. This is one of the stated policies. Before taking a sick day, see if you can call, explain, and come in for just an hour or two while they find a replacement.*

      *and once you’re there “oh whoops can’t find a replacement so hey, you can stay, right?” happens half the time anyway

      On the other hand, our jobs heavily involved small children, which means we get every freaking illness that goes around anyway.

      2. Esperanza*

        That’s not your fault — when managers don’t give PTO and pressure you to work sick, I blame management completely. I’m annoyed in my case because we offer plenty of PTO, and nobody gets mad when someone is out sick. Her own manager even tried to get her to go home (but didn’t force her).

  33. Mrs. Picky Pincher*

    I used to work at a place where people regularly brought their sick kids to work. It was so awful. We caught absolutely everything the kids had and since it was the boss’s kids, we couldn’t really say anything. Please don’t bring sick kiddos to work, guys!

  34. LawCat*

    On step 3, if I’m honest, if my coworker’s carelessness landed my kid in the hospital, I’d be permanently civil enough, but icy at work. I wouldn’t care if it was from ignorance. I’d be pissed if my boss told me to move on because shunning the person who put my already sick kid in the hospital is “not great for us.” My kid being in the hospital was not great for my family. This was a potentially deadly mistake. I’d want her fired. What if someone actually had died? Would that change the advice?

    1. Kat A.*

      This. I, too, would be really offended if my boss told me the same thing. Your employees are entitled to their feelings and shouldn’t be forced to interact with this selfish, inconsiderate coworker any more than they have to for work.

      1. LawCat*

        The more I think about it, even if I could bring myself to tolerate coworker at a level of civil iciness, I’d start looking to jump ship if my boss told me to get over it.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          Agreed… everyone else is right too – maybe she didn’t know how bad it was, didn’t think he really had it, felt like she had no other choice…

          But it wouldn’t stop my (intense and negative) emotional reaction to her seeming indifference or being told to let it go.

          (My brother had leukemia and caught pneumonia at one point. Our parents took several days off and pulled us all out of school because we legitimately thought he wouldn’t make it. If we knew a specific person gave it to him, there’s no way we’d be on good terms with them – whether or not that’s fair).

      2. Liane*

        That is all Alison said OP should require–that coworkers are able, however icily, to interact to get work done. *
        Coworkers may be told to ask for the TPS reports in a civil tone, and not glare daggers at Noro-Mom throughout meetings. They shouldn’t be told to sit at her table in the breakroom or that they have to invite her to grab lunch with them.

        *And it would be pretty icy from me.

    3. K.*

      Totally agree. I would exchange no more words with her than necessary, there would be no smile on my face while I said them, and I’d be livid at my boss for telling me to move on from the fact that the coworker’s carelessness nearly killed my kid.

    4. Maxwell Edison*

      I’d keep a hazmat suit in my desk and wear it whenever I had to interact with this coworker. Or maybe ring a bell when she walks by.

      (Actually, because I’m non confrontational to a fault, I’d probably just avoid her as much as humanly possible.)

  36. Jade*

    Weird to me that the child was allowed to run amuck at the potluck, sick or not. That and the fact she brought her kid to work without asking or telling anybody, which OP sounds like is not an acceptable practice.

    1. Adlib*

      That was a big red flag to me too! Regardless of whether or not the kid was sick, she brought him there and tried to hide it. Not great judgment to begin with. (The kid appears to have “escaped” to the potluck because kids are hard to corral at times, especially near food. It sounds like she did not allow him there.)

  37. Moonsaults*

    Woah, I just got done telling my employee with childcare issues that we’re cool with kids in the office from time to time. But a sick kid and then to be nonchalant about it putting everyone at risk, I can’t wrap my mind around.

    I come from that nasty background of employers who gave you crap for using sick time, so I’m more understanding than most but you see the havoc you created and have the decency to feel horrible about it. She seems like a huge jerk and should at least have this placed into her file in case Jr is found in her office again one of these days. Since it screams out at me that she really doesn’t think she was doing anything wrong.

  38. Christina*

    My baby caught noro from his nursery and I have never been so sick in my entire life, AND we ended up in hospital with him. HOWEVER, even knowing what I now know, I would be reluctant to throw this woman under the bus. If her son had a light dose it’s entirely possible that she thought it wasn’t a big deal, I know that I didn’t know how bad it was until it happened to me. Just one of the many things that nobody warns you about before you have kids!

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I’m a biologist and a parent, so there’s that, but I truly cannot wrap my head around how people are saying they had no idea how bad norovirus is. This is our problem as a society, so please don’t take this as dumping on you, but I feel like somewhere we’ve completely failed if your average, generally informed citizen is in the dark about this. Maybe we need to include a comprehensive, not just reproductive, health class in high school (along with basic personal finance and basic cooking…)

      1. Leatherwings*

        That’s… pretty unfounded. I am an incredibly informed person on lots of subject but am one of the people who said I don’t follow health news. I think your public health knowledge is more advanced given your background, and basically calling others ignorant and lacking basic information is not cool.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          If you don’t follow health news, you should follow the guidelines of the daycare. If your son’s daycare says he’s too sick to be around other people, who are you to overrule that, especially if you don’t follow health news?

          1. Leatherwings*

            A few other commenters have pointed out that kids are sent home for sniffles at a daycare. It’s entirely possible that the parent didn’t know that this was serious (and I’m frustrated by the fact that people are so disbelieving of that fact).

            1. Trout 'Waver*

              Well then educate yourself on the difference between sniffles and norovirus before you make the uninformed and ignorant decision that it’s not a big deal. I’m frustrated by people who claim they didn’t know any better, but then ignore established guidelines and policies put in place by people who do know better. Ignorance is not an excuse for sending a kid with cancer to the hospital.

          2. Rusty Shackelford*

            But there’s “actual serious” and there’s “daycare serious.” I can’t blame her for thinking he might have only been “daycare serious.”

            Example: your kid has a mild sinus infection, or allergies, so they’re draining a lot of mucus. And they end up swallowing enough to get nauseated, and they vomit. Boom. That’s “daycare serious.” That’s an automatic out. But is it so serious that they should have been quarantined from other children, or adults? Most people would say “no.” Most people understand that staying home every time you have a runny nose is unnecessary and doesn’t prevent the spread of disease as much as good, regular handwashing does.

            And as we’ve seen here, not everybody understands how contagious and how debilitating norovirus is. To her, it might have been like lice – you can’t go to school, but the world’s not going to end, and you’re extremely unlikely to spread it to your mom’s workplace. (Seriously… my kid was sick before we realized she had lice, and she spent a night in my bed while Mr. Shackelford slept in her bed, and neither of us got the little monsters. But I digress.)

            So I can’t blame her for not realizing how serious it was. I can and do, however, blame her for bringing him to work without approval, letting him have access to community food, not fessing up she was informed how serious it was, and not expressing regret afterward.

            1. Trout 'Waver*

              I don’t have a problem with people not realizing the seriousness of it. It’s when they decide to expose other people that’s the issue.

        2. LoiraSafada*

          It’s in the news EVERY year. Cruise ships, schools, you name it. This is not “health news;” they report on norovirus on your local D-grade news channel. I’ve heard about outbreaks 2,500 miles away from me this year on my local news.

          2. Elizabeth H.*

            I think that the more it is reported on, probably the less people think it’s a big deal.

            By contrast I would imagine that everyone knows how serious meningitis is, which is in the news much less than norovirus.

            I think another complicating factor is that like with anything some people have much more severe consequences than others. There are plenty of people who have had norovirus and it really sucked but it wasn’t necessarily the most dramatic health thing that has ever happened to them.

          3. Government Worker*

            I’ve seen lots of those reports, but the specific illness doesn’t necessarily register. If I’d stopped to think about it I might have realized that norovirus is spread differently and has different kinds of outbreaks than listeria or e coli, but the news stories get all lumped together in my mind. The news also reports on outbreaks of meningitis or mono in dorms, reports of particularly bad flus, pertussis outbreaks in places with low vaccination rates, etc. I see the news and think “that sucks, but it’s far away from me and I’m not going to catch this round” and move on. You can read the news and be reasonably well-informed without knowing much about norovirus in particular.

          4. Natalie*

            I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but the news tends to paint every single infectious illness as though it’s radioactive plague cancer.

          5. Kate*

            Agreed. I actually don’t even watch the news. But I know about norovirus just from seeing bits of the news in restaurants, friends and family member’s houses.

            Not blaming anyone, honestly confused, I guess I just don’t understand how anyone can not know about noroviruses when I watch the news maybe 3 or 4 times a year and I know about them.

          6. Mazzy*

            I like newspapers and often get the NYT which is seen as the pinnacle of journalism, and have yet to see this word at all. It is possible I skipped it or didn’t buy the paper that day, but it definitely isn’t making headlines. And with so many venues devoting way too much time to politics these days (seen Slate lately?)….

        3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          I don’t want to personally insult or malign anybody; I fully realize that the generally woeful state of health knowledge is due to lack of reliable sources – and the health news is a rotten source. Most people don’t get any kind of formal health or wellness education, and that’s where I lie the blame for ignorance and a lack of basic information – not on individuals. Even the incredibly informed can only actively pursue so many topics.

          But it’s still ignorance and a lack of basic information, and I don’t think it’s “not cool” to call it what it is.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            It’s also extremely widespread, as you can see right here in this very thread, so I’m asking that you stop calling fellow commenters ignorant :)

            1. AD*

              Is “ill-informed” less negative-sounding? Whatever you call it, if you lack knowledge of something it’s not objectively unkind for someone else to point that out as long as it’s done respectfully.

              1. Adam V*

                Sure, but no one is well-informed about *everything*, so calling someone out for one of the things they’re ill-informed about is (kind of) questioning their judgment or their intelligence, so it’s not particularly useful.

                I like the math in this XKCD cartoon to help explain it:

                https://xkcd.com/1053/

          2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            Is there a better word I should use? “Ignorance” doesn’t mean the person is stupid or lacks ability, it just means a lack of knowledge.

            Please, do clue me in, other posters or Alison – if there’s a word that doesn’t have shadings of personal insult, which I don’t intend at all, please let me know.

            1. Oh, here we go again*

              It does have a negative connotation to it, even if it isn’t intended that way. I would just go with “unawareness.”

            2. Rusty Shackelford*

              I’m confused too. “Ignorant” literally means they don’t know, in the way that I am ignorant about conjugating Latin verbs. It’s not an insult.

            4. SarahKay*

              I think it’s perhaps the difference between calling someone ignorant and describing them as ignorant of something specific. Rightly or wrongly, saying “Wakeen is ignorant” is commonly seen as insulting, whereas “Wakeen is ignorant of the facts about norovirus” is a less emotionally charged.

            6. CasperLives*

              Yeah, they literally (not figuratively) are ignorant. I suppose you could say “a lot of people don’t know” to avoid the connotation, although you’re providing the same information. I’ll admit that I was ignorant about norovirus until this thread. I had heard the name and knew it was highly contagious, but didn’t know how bad it is. I’ve never gotten it. I don’t have kids, amd don’t keep up with daycare outbreaks etc.

            7. anonderella*

              I like words a lot, so I agree that ignorant is being misused – when what is really meant is more toward, say, “stupid” – but I can understand how an average person might not make that conclusion right off.
              Especially when, on an eytomological hunch, I googled “ignoramus” just now, and the google-definition given was:
              ig·no·ra·mus
              ˌiɡnəˈrāməs,ˌiɡnəˈraməs/
              noun
              an ignorant or stupid person.

              Merriam-Webster says:
              Definition of ignoramus
              plural ignoramuses also ignoramiplay \ˌig-nə-ˈrā-mē also -ˈra-\
              : an utterly ignorant person : dunce

              We all know how dunces are supposed to feel, given a certain past letter – not great.
              Ignorant may not exactly mean “stupid”, but it’s parsed as a synonym often enough that the average dictionary-user(and -needer) won’t suss out that nuance.

              Just my two-cents. I am personally not offended by anything you’ve said so far, but you can bet your bottom dollar that I would not enjoy someone being so ho-hum about calling me ignorant, and then telling me I don’t really know how the word works. Again, you asked to be clued in – so this is not meaning any offence, or intending to spark argument : )

              1. PlainJane*

                The issue is denotation vs. connotation (sorry – I was an English major – I can’t help myself). The denotation or literal definition of “ignorant” is similar to “unaware” or “uninformed.” The connotation, the subjective meaning, is pretty different. “Ignorant” is usually seen as pejorative, while, “unaware” is not. “Uninformed” is, I think, also pejorative but not as much as “ignorant,” is. Signed, your friendly neighborhood pedantic former English teacher.

        4. paul*

          No one’s a subject matter expert on everything you know? And a lot of us *don’t* google every little thing that happens or that our kid gets. My doctor tells me “hey, give him this, he’ll be fine in a few days” I’m more inclined to trust my doctor than WebMD

        5. Anna*

          I’m tired of experts on this thread telling the rest of everyone we’re ignorant for not knowing everything. If any one of these folks can tell me about WIOA based on what they’ve heard about it in the news, I’ll retract my irritation, but for now, it would be great if people didn’t think we should all be as informed as they are in what they do as professionals.

          1. Perse's Mom*

            One person that I’ve seen has lamented how poorly served people are by health news stories and she has been quite clear in the use of ‘ignorant’ in that specific context. Not at all in the ‘ur stupid’ sense.

            A number of commenters have said daycares and schools in their experience do hand out information and inform parents about things like norovirus. If that’s the case here, then the mother has no excuse to not know her child was carting around something highly contagious (much like if WIOA was relevant to my personal situation and you handed me info on it, I would have no excuse for not knowing anything about it).

          2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            I don’t expect you to know the details of, say, the Clean Air Act or know how to conduct a rare species survey. I do expect that people have a basic understanding of common illnesses and how to mitigate their own symptoms and avoid passing it to others. This is not some item of irrelevant minutia that you will never put into practical use, important only to experts. You will get norovirus, at some point.

      2. Moonsaults*

        Sadly humans frequently tend to hear a lot of things and yet they will only ever accept that it’s a public health risk when something like this original story happens.

        If I had a dollar for every “wow. Didn’t know that illness could be so bad! Just take some Dayquil and go to school/work!” I’ve heard over the years I’d be independently wealthy at this point.

        So I can’t even say it’s lack of education. It’s a huge helping of “not my problem!” And “gee it can’t really be that bad.”

        My mom works in healthcare and even then, they’re horrible to staff when they get whatever is going through a nursing home at any given time.

      3. Manders*

        I think what most people don’t understand is the stage of a disease where someone has no symptoms or mild symptoms, but can still infect other people. It’s kind of scary how little the average person knows about how diseases are spread and how they should be treated.

      4. TL -*

        Okay, I’m a biologist (not a parent) and my knowledge of noro could’ve been summed up as “stomach bug, pretty contagious.”
        I know enough in general not to expose any immunocompromised person to disease and to keep sick people away from food, but norovirus has never been on my radar, either as an illness I’ve had or something that has majorly impacted someone I know.

        1. Andie Elizabeth*

          Yeah, I studied biology and I’m a casual epidemiology nerd and I was under the impression that norovirus was the technical term for the common cold, so.

      5. Elizabeth West*

        We used to have a whole class on health and hygiene–I don’t know if schools still do. I also don’t remember what was covered–basic stuff mostly, I think.

    2. LoiraSafada*

      Doesn’t matter. There is no “light dose” with norovirus. This is ignorance at best and criminally poor judgement at worst. As I said above, you don’t get to play Russian Roulette with your coworkers’ and their families’ health for your convenience. Your ignorance can turn out to be someone else’s emergency, or worse.

    3. neverjaunty*

      Letting someone experience the consequences of their actions (or failing to shield them from those consequences) is not “throwing them under the bus”.

      1. AD*

        Exactly. There seem to be a lot of people here willing to minimize the fact that this employee:
        1. Knew nothing about norovirus (not her fault perhaps)
        2. Disregarded the daycare center’s quarantine instructions (not so good)
        3. Decided to bring him into work (worse)
        4. Kept him there for hours (according to OP’s letter) and around communal food (even worse)
        5. After others became seriously ill and public health officials intervened, she was unapologetic although she seems to have at least owned up to the fact that she made a mistake (really bad, poor judgement, no accountability or self-awareness)

        What I’m seeing a lot of people (including Alison) doing is saying “Oh she didn’t know what norovirus was and a lot of other people don’t either, so it wasn’t malicious on her part, oh well”. That ignores points 2-5.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          What I’m seeing a lot of people (including Alison) doing is saying “Oh she didn’t know what norovirus was and a lot of other people don’t either, so it wasn’t malicious on her part, oh well”.

          It’s not “oh well,” and I think that’s unfair statement of my and others’ position here. There’s a lot of room between “oh well” and “fire her.”

          1. neverjaunty*

            Absolutely, and the first step – even if the OP were inclined to fire her – is to sit the employee down to figure out WTF she was thinking and why she is saying she thought it was no big deal. But I think in addition to reacting to the seriousness of norovirus, a lot of commenters are also reacting to what they perceive as an effort to find reasons to soften the behavior.

          2. AD*

            Calling other posts “vitriolic” isn’t really fair either. And I didn’t advocate for firing the employee.

            2. JB (not in Houston)*

              People are essentially saying the woman is a terrible human being. It is pretty vitriolic.

              1. AD*

                Calling her a low-life is unwarranted, but based on the facts (and the additional info from OP) she kinda….does seem like a terrible person.
                There is a difference between an ad hominem insult and honest evaluation of a person’s behavior. So I concede that insults are not helpful. But looking dispassionately at her actions and responses, I would say she’s behaved really poorly and seems to have bad judgment and a serious lack of consideration of those around her.

              2. Jesmlet*

                Those specific phrases only came from a small number of people though. Generalizing and implying all posts suggesting her firing are vitriolic isn’t really a fair or accurate assessment of the situation.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  I don’t think anyone has suggested that every post calling for her firing is vitriolic, just that there’s been a large amount of vitriol among them.

                2. AD*

                  The phrases came from one (perhaps two) people. Another reason to, as you said, take the dissenting opinions of others more seriously and not applying a broad brush to everyone.

  39. TCO*

    OP, is there anything you can do to help ease things for the other employees who got sick? Do you have the power to grant some extra sick days, for instance, to cover the absence of the employee whose child ended up hospitalized? Even though this problem wasn’t your fault, smoothing things over for affected employees (if you have the ability to) could really help restore morale and productivity on your team.

  40. Kaitlyn*

    We’ve seen previous letters that have stressed how distracting and unprofessional it is to bring kids to work. We’ve had previously letters that have discussed how dangerous and careless it is to work when you’re contagious. Combining them into one super-letter gives my head a shake. This woman was out of line and seems cavalier about the outcomes. If she hasn’t already been told by the OP how serious the effects have been on her co-workers, office morale, and specific health concerns, she needs to have that made crystal clear. She also needs to understand that bringing her kid – sick or not – is outside the bounds of professional norms, and that if she does it again, there will be consequences. And encourage her to Google whatever diagnosis the daycare offers *before* bringing her “no big deal” sick kid anywhere, as it may change her plans.

    1. PlainJane*

      Thank you. I’m surprised that the “bringing in a sick kid” part seems to be getting less focus than the, “didn’t know norovirus is serious/people could have died” part. I can see bringing an older child to work very occasionally (not while sick), but even a healthy preschooler is too big a distraction. If you’re caring for a preschooler, you’re unlikely to be focused on your work. Add in a known illness, and we have a really poor decision at best. I’ve said it upthread, but it bears repeating: I’d have some sympathy if this person had no paid leave or would be penalized for using it, but it sounds like that isn’t the case, so I’m honestly baffled as to why she’d choose to do something so unprofessional and thoughtless.

      1. Chicken*

        Eh, I think that bringing a kid (even a preschooler!) to work is a know your office & know your kid thing. I worked in an office for a couple years where kids came by pretty frequently. One coworker would bring his preschooler for a couple hours sometimes – she would usually sit and draw or watch videos. We had a shared wall so thin that I could always hear him on the phone, but the kid never disturbed me.

        (Obviously bringing a sick kid is a different situation, and sneaking a kid into an office where kids aren’t welcome is a totally different story! But I think it’s worth noting that “no kids ever” is not a universal office norm.)

  41. Sibley*

    Honestly, if I was in the office and the person who was responsible for infecting everyone else didn’t show any remorse, I’d be pretty pissed with them too. I’d be polite and professional, but not chummy, and I don’t know that it would change until I saw evidence that they had become a more considerate human being. There are consequences to behavior after all.

    1. Mena*

      She’s made it pretty clear that she’s more focused on herself and not thinking of others. The kid is banned from daycare but ok enough to come to the office?

  42. Mena*

    Remember the person last week that was upset about the company’s very strict sick policy (don’t come in if you have ANY symptoms)? Now we have a retirement community at risk as well as someone undergoing chemotherapy.

  43. Take Your Sick Child to Work Day?*

    Taking a contagious child to work is a breach of ethics, professionalism and common sense. This woman cost your business a fair amount of time and money.

    Its understandsble that people are hostile toward her.

    I’d let her go.

    1. ali*

      I love your name. I don’t come to work on Bring Your Child to Work day because I assume at least one of those children is going to be carrying something. I have the advantage of being able to work from home, but if I didn’t I’d be wasting one of my PTO days for something my workplace is not only allowing, but encouraging. But that’s the life of the immunocompromised. It’s what we have to think about that most people don’t.

    2. Lurks@Work*

      Amen! I might be swayed away from firing if your direct report showed any remorse when people got sick. Or if she couldn’t take the kid home because someone else there had a weakened immune system. Or if she worked at some lousy, do-what-you-gotta-do place that offered no benefits like paid sick leave.
      Or, heck, if she even told somebody what was going on. Seems like this sick kid was running around on his own with no one watching him! That’s another layer on this too-tall negligence cake.
      People have gotten sued for less, in some states.

  44. Nan*

    We actually got a notice from building management that someone in the building had possibly been exposed and brought it to the building last week. I asked our HR and she said it wasn’t from our office, thank goodness! The building said they were doing extra cleaning, but I didn’t see any of that.

    As far as I’m concerned, if ANYTHING is spewing from any orifice you stay home. No one wants the tummy monkeys or the spewfest. That includes keeping your germy kids at home. Yes, daycares send kids home for very minor things, like the sniffles, but if this kid had noro, he had to have been at least appearing to have the stomach flu. Why would you bring a kid with the stomach flu to work? Even the “normal” stomach flu goes around like wildfire. This lady is an inconsiderate twit.

    3. kb*

      I’m totally of the same mindset that staying home sick is best for your own health, but also the health of coworkers. Sadly that’s not the culture at-large in all industries. I have friends who pride themselves on working through every illness, no matter how bad, which isn’t good for their recovery or their coworkers. They think it shows grit or determination. It’s really silly, but the workaholic culture has a strong hold on a lot of people to detrimental effects. I’m not sure if that’s what happened with this woman, I don’t understand her life or her choices, but there’s a chance there were factors going on we’re not considering.

      I’ve also said this elsewhere in the thread, but I’ve encountered quite a few people who think norovirus is food poisoning (not highly contagious from person-to-person) because the most recent batch of outbreaks were at food establishments. So there’s the chance this woman didn’t think her kid would be contagious enough to start an epidemic. We know a lot of the story that, frankly, isn’t promising, but it’s not quite at the damning point either.

  45. rubyrose*

    So maybe she did not know the seriousness of this particular virus. She brought the kid to work without advance approval and did not monitor the kid appropriately. She only fesses up when public health comes out asking questions.

    It sounds to me like she knows in her heart now that she massively messed up and is just trying to stay under the radar, hoping it will all go away, without her acknowledging her actions.

    Have the discussion. But she needs a written warning at minimum. And she needs to make reparations in some significant manner.

    2. fposte*

      Nah, I had a horrible NLV (from kids running a lemonade stand, yet) and I think people are being too hard on the OP.

      1. AD*

        They’re not being hard on the OP, they’re being hard on the employee.

        And did you see the OP’s added comment above? Apparently this employee still doesn’t seem to understand the gravity of the situation, despite being sat down and talked to by the local department of public health.

        1. fposte*

          Yes, I meant the employee, not the OP, and I agree that it sounds lik ethe employee is really not dealing with the aftermath in a wise manner.

    3. Christy*

      I don’t think that’s fair. I had gastroenteritis this Christmas and accidentally exposed my immunocompromised, hospitalized grandmother to it. Less than five minutes after I first got sick, I called the hospital to warn them to monitor her. I know what gastroenteritis is. I know how terrible it is.

      But I also know that people mess up, and when they mess up, their instincts can be to try to hide it, ignore it, or get defensive. That doesn’t mean they should be fired. It doesn’t mean that they are ignorant or willfully ignorant or purposefully malicious because they don’t have the same level of knowledge about norovirus as some on this thread (some, not all, notably, even on this thread).

      This woman made a mistake. She needs to work to come back from that mistake, and Alison’s advice can help with that. But jeez, it’s not (1) you’ve had norovirus and think this woman should be immediately fired or (2) you haven’t and you don’t see the big deal.

      1. ABizzle*

        She didn’t accidentally make a mistake…her actions were with purpose and she knew they were wrong. Your mindset is to hire people who don’t consider their coworkers and put themselves when they know they are endangering peoples health. It is wrong to keep someone working in an office who almost killed two peoples relatives and feels know remorse for it. She would be fired in a second if I were her manager and I manage 19 people right now and am getting another batch soon because I have done so well over the last 5 years. I would never force people to interact with someone whose actions (not careless actions but purposeful actions could have led to their love ones death. You are defending this woman way too much. Imagine if you were in those workers shoes for one second. If I almost killed people because of an action I committed on purpose I would be fired and I home she is too.

    4. Kyrielle*

      Been in the ER…three times, I think? Maybe four. Because I needed to be rehydrated. Only in one of those cases did I actually need IV zofran to stop it from continuing, though, in the rest I was able to manage to take the pills. (…not surprisingly, that was the time I’d waited the longest to go in, and the one that took two bags of saline to rehydrate me. NEVER want to experience that again….)

      I’m not sure she shouldn’t be fired. But I’m not sure she should. The lack of obvious *remorse* is more upsetting to me than the original decision, which may have been a horrible mistake, not the actions of the devil. I certainly think there needs to be a serious discussion, and I think the actual consequences were horrible – but I don’t think the more extreme reactions such as immediate firing are necessarily called for.

      And man, I hope I’m never unlucky enough to have someone bring norovirus into my office or my kids’ schools/day cares, because I really don’t need another ER visit.

    5. lorelei*

      I have had serious medical problems since childhood and get sick all the time. I still think people are overreacting.

  47. Marcy*

    I’m surprised by all the commenters who think this person should be fired for this. Are you all judging her on the action, or on the consequences? The fact that she got two immune-compromised individuals sick is terrible, but not really so predictable that I’d go straight to firing her. Her failure to apologize is really troubling, and probably grounds for a reprimand when you combine it with the original action. For all we know, though, she might not be saying anything because of extreme mortification and not a sociopathic disregard for the well-being of her co-workers. We rarely hear about consequences this extreme, but people come to work sick (and bring their kids in sick) kind of all the time, and while it’s an annoying thing to do, I rarely hear it talked about as a firing offense.

    Also, as a side note, as a parent with a kid in daycare, the phrase “banned from daycare” sounds much more extreme than the reality. Daycares usually have a set of symptoms which will result in a child being “banned” for 24 hours after the symptoms subside, including having a fever of over X degrees. This is good practice from a public health perspective to prevent contagion, but as someone who has, on multiple occasions, canceled meetings and driven home to nurse a child to health, only to have the child take a one hour nap and then turn into a Tazmanian devil of wellness and activity–sometimes this policy can be really frustrating. I can totally see how a parent who has gone through this gauntlet might think this is just one of those passing childhood illnesses, rather than something serious. And yes, I am one of those people who did not know what Norovirus was until my kid got sick with it and I started googling it. I’m not saying this woman was reasonable–she wasn’t. I just think she is, at most, stupid rather than evil or mean. Anyone can be stupid sometimes. Stupid should get at least two strikes.

    1. Lissa*

      Yeah, I agree. I read the letter and was horrified and thought I’d have stern words for her, but then all the other comments has me backing off that just because it seems most people have way more vitriol for her than I ever would! I feel differently than some people about the consequences/action thing, I realize, but I don’t understand the point of punishing her more harshly because of the very bad consequences here — if the worst that had happened was some coworkers got the virus, should she be punished less? She would have made exactly the same bad judgment.

      1. lorelei*

        +1 The consequences were beyond her control. Focus on what she did, not the secondary and tertiary effects.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          The consequences were absolutely in her control. It’s reasonably foreseeable that a contagious person could infest others by touching communal food and fixtures.

          1. Marcy*

            The consequence of getting people sick may be in her control, but the consequence of getting her coworker’s family members hospitalized was not obviously in her control. People go to work sick all the time. It makes them bad coworkers, but if that was a firing offense, we’d all have gotten fired at least once in our work lives. The punishment has to fit the crime. The crime here is stupidly bringing your kid to work sick, not hospitalizing a child with cancer and a frail grandmother. I think a private reprimand, the obvious social pariah status she is enduring, and the public reprimand of an all staff “Reminder: stop bringing your sick kid to work” is adequate punishment.

            1. Doe-eyed*

              I mean, yes and no. Statistically, who thinks that no one they work with knows ANYONE AT ALL who is immunocompromised. Surely it beggars belief to think that nobody you work with knows a.) a chronically ill person or b.) an elderly person.

            2. Kimberlee, Esq*

              I would argue that bringing a kid you knew (or at least had significant reason to suspect) had norovirus to the office is _very_ different than going to work yourself when you have the sniffles.

              Sure, a cold is bad for someone that is immunocompromised, and that is worth considering. But an illness whose main hallmarks are vomiting and diarrhea? Like, dehydration due to diarrhea is one of the leading worldwide killers of children. Getting a cold is bad for an immune compromised person, but getting norovirus is much worse.

              1. TL -*

                Dehydration due to diarrhea kills almost no children in first world countries, though, because that’s an issue with access to healthcare, not actually a huge health risk to people with modern health care.

                1. fposte*

                  Just for statistical interest, the CDC says 575-800 deaths per year in the U.S. from norovirus; flu killed 4605 in 2015.

    2. eplawyer*

      Everyone who is calling for her to be fired because you are immuno-compromised yourself or have a child who is immuno-compromised, have you told each and everyone of your co-workers of the situation? If you have not, do not assume they are mindreaders. They could well unknowingly expose you to something. But if you are not willing to tell everyone all the details of your health or your child’s health, do not call for this woman to lose her job over information she may not have had.

      1. ali*

        No, and we shouldn’t have to tell our coworkers about our illnesses.

        I don’t believe she should be fired, but you CAN NOT put this as the fault of the people who might or might not have told their coworkers about their own personal health situations or that of their family members.

        1. eplawyer*

          Where did I say it was the fault of the people with health concerns? I just said don’t call for someone to lose their job over what might be just not thinking of anything other than “My kid can’t be in daycare, I don’t have an emergency back up and I need to be at work today.” She is not some mastermind who is trying to kill her co-workers and their families so she can take over the company. She was a parent stuck in a situation she didn’t think through.

          1. fposte*

            I don’t think she was stuck, though; “stuck” is if taking a sick day was really going to be an issue.

          2. ali*

            No, you said, “if you are not willing to tell everyone all the details of your health or your child’s health, do not call for this woman to lose her job over information she may not have had.” Which implies you are saying it’s their own fault for not telling her about their own personal, private health details.

            I don’t think she should be fired either, but that is not what you said.

            1. ali*

              (btw, I’m sorry if I’m sounding harsh and rude here, that is not my intent in the least. I hope you can see why in your statement I thought you were saying that it is our fault if we are in those health situations for not telling this woman, and not this woman’s fault).

        2. fposte*

          Though I think that would depend on the contagious illness and the degree of medical fragility. If you’re at high risk when exposed to respiratory viruses or skin infections or even staph/strep carriers, that’s information that really needs to be shared.

    3. Poppy*

      Agreed, I feel like the coworker had a lapse in judgement and is possible one of those people who kind of shuts down when ashamed of their actions, hence the lack of apology.
      I honestly think a lot of the vitriol is coming from people’s fear of vomit! I wonder if the conversation would be a little gentler if the kid was sick with something like scarlet fever or hand, foot & mouth disease.

      1. Doe-eyed*

        I think if you’re the kind of person who brings your kid in with norovirus you should definitely work very hard not to be the kind of person who can’t apologize for hospitalizing a cancer-striken child with your choices.

      2. Kimberlee, Esq*

        I mean, refusing to acknowledge or take responsibility for your mistakes is hardly an admirable trait in an employee, either. There are plenty of examples here on AAM and elsewhere where someone made a mistake that could have been survivable, but erred in deciding to cover it up rather than fess up. It’s true that human beings get defensive or evasive when we’ve been told we’ve done something wrong. I also think it’s entirely fair to judge people for it, especially when their defensiveness or cover-up made things distinctly worse.

    4. PlainJane*

      Can’t speak for others, but I’m judging her on her actions, specifically:
      1. Bringing a preschool child to work – inappropriate unless it’s an emergency. It’s pretty hard to work while caring for a preschooler.
      2. Bringing a *sick* preschool child to work. Kids that age touch everything, and it’s bad enough we have to be exposed to our co-workers’ germs. We don’t need germs from their kids too.
      3. Doing the above when she very likely knew it was not acceptable workplace behavior (evidence that she tried to hide the fact that she had her child with her).
      4. Doing the above when she a) had plenty of sick leave, and b) would not be penalized for using it.
      5. Remaining silent when people started getting sick. She might not have prevented illnesses by speaking up at that point, but she could help people know what they had and whether or not they should seek treatment.
      6. Appearing to show zero remorse or understanding of the consequences of her actions.

      Unless this entire incident is wildly out of character for her, I’d have reservations about keeping her onboard.

    5. Evergreen*

      Yes! This is a big angle I think is being missed! Kids are sent home from daycare a lot. A lot.

      I can see the mum seeing the son was okay (no symptoms), assuming one of daycare’s strict policies was in force and thinking ‘well I’ll be quick anyway, just need to send Wakeen’s report’. Stupid, but not sociopathic.

      Also, I’m glad to have read this, because I can also see myself in this coworker (and will be mindful in future!!!)

  48. Any mouse*

    I’m not 100% sure what I had was the norovirus but I woke up vomiting one day and proceeded to feel like crap. I had never felt that bad before and honestly wouldn’t have thought it was as bad unless I experienced it.

    I’d had a stomach bug before where I threw up so much my face hurt and that wasn’t as bad

  49. chomps*

    Ugh. I don’t understand how she didn’t know how bad norovirus is! Or that you can’t bring your kid to the office without permission!

  50. NotaGermaphobe, but...*

    I don’t know how I would ever feel comfortable/trust working with a person who did this ever again. I look perfectly healthy, but am immuno-compromised with an autoimmune disease that affects my digestive system. Norovirus could actually kill me (or result in having to take increasingly strong, expensive medications and/or life changing surgery that would require parts of my digestive system to be removed). I think the manager should strongly urge the employee to personally apologize to all directly affected.

  51. Britt*

    Add me to the camp in favor of firing this woman. Not only did she exercise extremely poor judgement multiple times, she’s not even remorseful for her actions that subsequently hospitalized someone. I think the advice is way too lenient here and too much damage has been done. It would have been one thing if this all happened and the employee was mortified and apologized profusely, etc. Instead she played dumb and feigned ignorance until she got called on her bluff. If this was my coworker, you couldn’t offer me the CEO’s salary to be cordial to this woman. There’s a lot of speculation of her just “not knowing” but this sounds like a clear cut case of selfishness. Not only did this affect her entire office, it also affects her poor kid who clearly needed to be home resting and not hanging at the company potluck. This woman would have had a pink slip after she’d been caught lying.

  52. MuseumChick*

    In response to those who are confused by how many of us would lean towards firing this employee, I think there are several factors at play for why many us feel so strongly.

    1) Knowingly exposing your co-workers to illness. This is just plain rude and inconsiderate.
    2) Bringing a sick child into work without asking if its ok and basically hiding them. This indicates the the employee know they were doing something wrong.
    3) Allowing that sick child around communal food. Just eww.
    4) No speaking up doing the investigation. This is the second biggest red flag for me. Just like #2, it indicates that she knew she was doing the wrong thing and trying to cover it up.
    5) Show no remorse or understand that what she did was wrong and seriously effected those around her. This is the biggest red flag to me.

    And the awful cherry on this dog-mess cake is that someone could have died because her choice/mistake/whatever you want to call it. And that is what puts me solidly in the “I would seriously consider firing her” camp.

    1. MuseumChick*

      Forgot one point: She had plenty of sick leave and would not have faced any negative repercussions for using it.

    3. Jesmlet*

      Yes to all of this. Also, I’d consider what the effects would be on the other employees if she was allowed to stay and just made some boilerplate apology at the prompting of management. I’d still be incredibly pissed and assume my employer didn’t give a rat’s behind about my health or the health of my loved ones. I say fire her.

      On second thought, I wonder if this person could be transferred to another office. I’d vote for that option if it was feasible.

      1. MuseumChick*

        There needs to be some serious consequence for this employee, I don’t know that a stern talk and, as you Jesmlet put it a “boilerplate apology” would cut it. I’m not even saying that I WOULD ultimately fire her but it would cross my mind and during the discussion I make it clear that her job was potentially at stake. Maybe an unpaid suspension?

        Others may disagree with me but this reminds me of the”Mary” letter where an employee had an admin assistant watch her kids in a supply closet so she could check in for her PIP and then drive the kids to daycare while the admin covered for her. It’s a series a very bad choices that the person ultimately had control over.

    4. Tex*

      And you can add to this the $ amount it cost the company in terms of lost productivity (# of sick people x days they were out, project delays) as well as individuals (medical expenses, vacation time gone) and government taxes (the public health investigation).

      I would be tempted to type it all out and hand it to her. Let’s say it cost $250,000 – would she have been held accountable for such an expensive mistake if it was in the course of normal business? (E.g., not reviewing a vendor invoice, ordering the wrong parts, etc.)

      I am on the fence on whether or not she should be fired. It really depends on her attitude and situation as well as if she is in a position of responsibility, and especially if her judgement is required in emergency/critical situations. I think a good compromise might be suspension without pay; a good 2-4 weeks off would also let fellow employees cool off towards her.

      1. MuseumChick*

        Yes, that is another factor, the lost $$$. I know someone who worked very briefly at a bank when they were in college. One night it was their job to fill the ATM. Well, they made an honest mistake and put in 50s instead of 20s. The amount of money lost was not huge since it was only one night before the mistake was found out but she was still fired for it.

        At a bare minimum I think the LW should tell this employee that their job is in danger, that she is to sincerely and profusely apologize to each co-worker affected, she is to NEVER bring a child to work again without notice to and clearance from her boss (which I think should include a note from a doctor that the child is not sick), she is to offer her sick days to the co-workers most affected, and she is to be suspended for 2 weeks without pay. If she balks at any of this, gets defensive, or argues I would very seriously consider firing her.

  53. Lord of the Ringbinders*

    I get that this sucks. I really do. But aren’t immune-compromised people at risk from anyone their family comes into contact with? Aren’t you taking a risk every time you go out in public? I’m asking because I genuinely am not sure and want to understand so please be kind…

    1. Cat*

      I kind of agree with this. We all have a duty to be careful, which is why this woman shouldn’t have done what she did and should be talked to about it. But the fact of the matter is, we also don’t know for sure that she’s the norovirus carrier – being out in public carries a certainty of being exposed to disease and some of that is just life.

        1. Cat*

          Right, that’s the better thing to do. But who among us hasn’t ran to the drug store whn we were sick or misjudged how sick we were and gone into work when it was a bad idea? I definitely have and I’ve gotten sick from people doing the same thing.

          1. MegaMoose, Esq*

            I can’t be the only one here who’s gone to work when we had something contagious because the options were “go to work” or “get fired and don’t have money for food,” right?

              1. MegaMoose, Esq*

                Certainly, but the OP’s report also didn’t run to the drug store when sick and that was the comment I was responding to. The point being that people sometimes have bad judgment or make unavoidably bad choices.

    2. Oh, here we go again*

      I normally agree with this, and when people freak out over getting a cold from a colleague, I think they are overreacting because there is no way to know where you got a cold. The issue here is that it wasn’t a cold. She knew what it was, presumably how contagious it is (or failed to do due diligence) and was so careless with it.

      1. Cat*

        I would push back on this. SHe knew that norovirus was going around the daycare. I doubt she knew her son was contagious with it – it sounds like he was feeling well enough to run around the office getting into food, neither of which are things people with norovirus usually want to do. He was likely sick with something else but a carrier – I think it’s poor judgment to bring the kid in at all, regardless of what he was sick with , but I also think it’s a stretch to say she knew what it was or how contagious it was.

        1. Oh, here we go again*

          The OP specifically said, “Her child had norovirus and was banned from attending daycare until he was no longer contagious.”

        2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Cat, norovirus sheds for several days after the end of acute symptoms. If he was feeling well enough to run around the office, he very well could have been asymptomatic but still infectious. That’s why norovirus gets a few dozen people sick with every outbreak, because you feel like death for three or four days, then you’re feeling better and go, welp, kicked that one….and you’re still exuding insanely virulent virus particles from every pore. And then you go to work at Chipotle and bam, national news.

          1. fposte*

            But lots of people have no idea about the duration of shedding virus–hell, if you ask three doctors you’ll get three different answers, which doesn’t help, and even plenty of people who realize you can be contagious during a prodromal phase believe that you stop being contagious pretty quickly with a virus even if you’re still symptomatic. (Those would be the people coughing and sniffling and sneezing and saying “But I’m past being contagious.”)

            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              I’d be fine with asking a doctor in the first place and making a conservative decision.

            2. a*

              I kind of think the “she didn’t understand the severity of norovirus” argument is a little bit of a red herring. Even if you underestimate norovirus, hell, even if your kid only had a cold. Letting them infect the food and other communal areas is just wrong.

              I know the argument is going to be that the kid got away from her when she had a second of inattention… but for me that is simply not good enough. You’re already taking the risk your sick kid will infect others in the office just by bringing them in; if you’re going to take that risk, it’s unacceptable not to do absolutely everything you have to minimize that risk for others.

              1. Natalie*

                I don’t think anyone is trying to suggest that her behavior was acceptable by pointing out that she might not have understood the severity, but simply that she was being run-of-the-mill negligent rather than sociopathically negligent.

                1. a*

                  Right, and I guess for me, I don’t think it’s useful to argue about whether she’s a sociopath or not; I think even the *non* sociopathic interpretation of her actions is still serious enough to justify strong disciplinary action.

                2. Kimberlee, Esq*

                  Yeah, I agree with A. I don’t think you have to believe that she was, in the words of another commenter, a moustache-twirling villain in order for this to be a potentially fireable offense. Sometimes run-of-the-mill negligence has devastating consequences, and sometimes people should face severe consequences for it. Not all the time, sure.

                3. Natalie*

                  @a, I don’t really disagree, but when it’s been suggested and agreed to by a lot of people, I at least would like to voice my disagreement and preference for a slightly less extreme path. I’m in total agreement that her actions are serious and warrant a firm response, I just don’t think they quite rise to the level of “fire her immediately” and I’m uncomfortable with the tenor of a lot of those comments.

        3. LSP*

          Exactly why she should have taken her kid to the pediatrician, rather than to her office. The doctor should have emphasized how contagious this virus is.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            Or call! My pediatrician friend is always frustrated that people never call and run questions by him and his staff. It’s free and it takes two minutes, and people still just wing it.

            1. LSP*

              Right? I call my pediatrician instead of going in whenever I think I might not need to bring him in. It’s so much quicker and saves everyone time.

            2. fposte*

              I wish my current health org would do this. You call, you leave a message for the nurse with the receptionist, the nurse calls to follow up with you, then the nurse goes to talk to the doctor, and then the nurse calls you back. If you’re lucky, it only takes a couple of days.

              1. Liane*

                That is really bad. My husband gets his care through Veterans’ Administration Hospital and if he calls with a question, he usually hears back the same day.

            3. Relly*

              This comment makes me feel way, way better about calling my dr’s office. I tend to worry that I am bothering them.

              1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

                Noooo why would you be bothering them? Answering health questions is their job.

                1. TL -*

                  I don’t particularly mean to be rude, but your responses have been very much on the side of [briefly summed up] “everyone should know this and it is a terrible failing that they don’t” and that kind of attitude heavily, heavily discourages people from seeking out more information on a subject, even (especially?) from experts. They feel so bad about having not known that it seems better to just not admit they didn’t know.

    3. A Person*

      There is certainly a risk from everyday life, but there’s a big difference between risk in general and risk when there’s a contagion around. Risk in general means sensible precautions-hand washing, wiping stuff down, etc. Risk when there’s a contagion around means actively avoiding the compromised person until you’re sure it’s passed and cleaning stuff within an inch of its life.

    4. ali*

      Yes, and those of us who are make choices every single day as to what risks we might or might not be willing to take. As do our family members. Including going to work. We should be able to trust that our coworkers have decent judgement and will not get us sick. But it still happens.

      I can’t tell you the number of times I have chosen to not get on an airplane in the winter, or not gone to a bar, or not gone to my godchildren’s school recitals. Because any of those things could get me sick enough to land me in the hospital. Going to work shouldn’t be one of those things I have to choose about.

    5. Jesmlet*

      I agree that there’s only so much one can do to avoid the danger, but keeping your child home and using a sick day was well within the ‘so much you can do’ for this person which is a major part of the problem. I’m sure if her coworkers knew there was a child with norovirus in the office, they wouldn’t have gone in. Ignoring company policy and forcing her bad decision on her coworkers is why they’re so pissed.

  54. ihatewinter*

    Ignorance is no excuse today. I’m sure she knows how to google something. And clearly she also does not give a damn about her coworkers. This is the type of thing that would make me question her everything.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Se depende. If you wash your hands regularly, stay out of personal contact, and confine yourself to your office/cube and aren’t hacking so loud you disturb your neighbors – and for bonus points, wear a mask – I think that’s reasonably ethical.

    2. Brandy*

      Level of sick is what matters. Colds, depends, allergies come on in if you feel like it, anything heavier, stay home.

  56. Suzy Q*

    I don’t know if anyone else has mentioned this, but if these employees have limited paid sick days (as most offices), then they had to use them for this. I would be very angry at the loss of this time benefit, especially if I had been saving them for something like planned surgery. How terrible for the parent of the child who is undergoing chemo to have those days stolen from her. Yes, stolen.

    1. rubyrose*

      Yes to this. Perhaps the offending employee can transfer some of their sick days to these other employees?

    2. Katie the Fed*

      this is a good point. I wonder if the company can give them a couple extra sick days because of it.

      1. rubyrose*

        The company giving extra days would be really great.

        But I’m looking for a way to hit this employee where it hurts. It might need to be voluntary on her part, but maybe giving her the option and see what she does? Could give some insight into how remorseful she is.

        3. Anna*

          That is a really gross approach. Who determines “how remorseful” she is? Oops, not remorseful enough according to my completely arbitrary measure! You’re fired!

          Glad you’re not my manager.

  57. LSP*

    As the parent of a 3 year old, my first stop when he gets sent home sick from pre-school is the doctor’s office. I wouldn’t dream of bringing him into work. He’s one of those kids that doesn’t act sick, even when he’s running a super high fever. Sometime the only way I know he’s sick is because I happen to touch his forehead and he’s burning up! Just because your kid is acting like he’s feeling ok, does not make exposing others to his germs an ok thing to do.

    My nephew passed away a couple years ago from cancer. While he was still in treatment getting chemo, my SIL and her family had to be diligent about possibly bringing home germs that might be a problem for him. You may not always know if you’re working with someone who is immuno-compromised or living with someone who is. Err on the side of caution and STAY HOME!

    I don’t think this is necessarily fireable as a stand-alone issue, but I WOULD take a close look at this employee’s other behavior in light of this. He not willing to own her mistake until confronted really is troubling and says a lot about her character. I don’t think she’s long for this job with some serious reparations to her colleagues.

  58. Katie the Fed*

    OP – my employer offers emergency child/dependent care specifically for these situations. They contract with a company that offers it – I think up to 4 days a year. It’s been a huge help for situations like this.

    Your employee was horribly irresponsible and she owes the office an apology.

    1. Bend & Snap*

      Mine does too, but they wouldn’t take a kid with norovirus. The parameters for this one are no fever 102 or higher, and no active vomiting.

      This is the kind of illness that as a parent, you just have to suck up and take care of. My XMIL offered to take care of my daughter when she had norovirus recently but it’s so contagious I declined.

      1. Brandy*

        the kid with noro in the work daycare would pass it to other kids and the staff and theyd pass it to their parents, etc…. Its best to just stay home when your (or your kids) are that level of sick. Don’t leave the house. Or if theyre carriers but not showing symptoms, the daycare said it was going around, stay home. Inside. Period.

        1. Bend & Snap*

          I think Katie was talking about backup care–in my office, this means they come to your house if your kid can’t go to daycare.

          There is drop-in daycare as part of that perk but if my daughter can’t go to her own daycare she can’t go to the work one either.

  59. lorelei*

    I’m kind of amazed at the amount of vitriol in the comments and calls for her to get fired. Was this a bad thing? Sure. But I think you should deal with the fact that she came in with a kid, when that wasn’t allowed, rather than effects down the line that she didn’t directly cause or control. If “coming with a kid” isn’t a fireable offense in whatever office policies there are, then this isn’t fireable.

    Unless, hey, you’d fire anyone who came in *themselves* while *they* were sick, and if so, that really should be made clear at hire, and reinforced *a lot*. I come in when sick. I wouldn’t come in when vomiting, but this is the first year of my life where I’ve been able to work from home because I wasn’t feeling 100% but could still manage computer stuff.

    And I say that as someone who gets sick at the drop of a hat, and once spent 5 days without leaving my apartment because one of my coworkers (an actualfax medical doctor) had a terrible cough that he never covered. I used to commute by bus for a decade and get sick a lot from it. If someone got me sick on the bus -> then I got someone sick at work -> then my coworker’s kid got sick? This is called how diseases spread. It’s not the dude on the bus’s fault.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      It wasn’t just that there was a sick child in the office. That child was allowed in public meeting rooms where people rotate in and out, that child was allowed to eat communal food and touch communal fixtures. The effects down the line wouldn’t have happened if she hadn’t made those poor judgment calls, so I think it’s reasonable to hold her responsible for that.

      Where the vitriol comes from is, given those bad choices, she then stayed silent and didn’t cooperate with/help the public health investigation, she hasn’t apologized, and she doesn’t recognize that actions which led to an older person and a sick child to be infected are a big deal and merit an apology. If she’d just gotten people sick and then personally apologized and expressed contrition, that’d be quite another thing.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Yes, I think it’s the silence/lack of concern that has everyone up in arms. When I contracted norovirus, I had no idea where I got it– I was feeling kind of icky during a movie, I took the subway home, then boom, I was out of work for a week and it took a good two months for me to fully recover. How *I* got it was not a concern to me or anyone else– I am a healthy adult and lived alone at the time– but if I had gone into work knowing I had this virus and hadn’t said anything, that would have been on me. At the time, I didn’t even identify what I had as norovirus, I just knew that it completely sucked and was the worst illness I had ever experienced, and I wasn’t about to give it to random strangers and co-workers if I could help it.

    2. Britt*

      It’s been explained multiple times that the call to fire her isn’t because she brought in her sick child. It’s over the fact that she willingly brought in her child when she knew he had a highly infectious disease that subsequently affected the entire office and then showed no remorse for it.

      1. Evan Þ*

        And it’s also been explained multiple times that she might not have known the disease he had was highly infectious.

        1. AD*

          And it’s been explained multiple times that the employee’s lack of proactiveness in at least googling “norovirus” and finding out what she had on her hands was her own mistake.

          1. Adam V*

            I don’t think that’s been “explained” at all. I think a lot of people here are saying it, but I don’t agree that a consensus has been reached.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Yep, and to the contrary — lots of people are saying that they did just google it and wouldn’t have concluded from what they found that it was so serious.

              1. AD*

                I honestly don’t understand how expecting a parent to not bring their very sick child to work (whether norovirus or something completely different) is seemingly such a hot-button topic and one which is receiving so much push-back. Just don’t bring your kid to work!
                That is a completely reasonable premise. I’m frankly confounded by how controversial this seems to be.
                I think the takeaway for me is that people have widely divergent approaches to coming into the office ill. I’ve seen it in practice at my current job and others, and I’m tending to think this is influencing how people are responding.

                1. AD*

                  And yes, two commenters have been rude/insulting (as we’ve heard several hundred times by now). I’m not condoning or approving that approach. But I definitely see a poo-pooing (bad choice of words, perhaps) of opinions contrary to certain people’s.

                2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  @AD, I haven’t seen anyone say it’s okay to bring a sick kid to work. The disagreement is about the consequence to the employee, not whether it was okay to do it or not. No one thinks this was okay.

                  As for any pooh-poohing, I think each side is more or less pooh-poohing the other side’s opinion, which isn’t surprising when there’s such a strong disagreement. I don’t think that’s inherently a bad thing as long as people are reasonably respectful about it, although I do think each side should recognize that the split pretty clearly indicates there’s no one obvious answer here that reasonable people will all agree on.

                  I don’t think there have been hundreds (or even dozens) of comments complaining about people being insulting. What’s being observed is that the level of pitchforks-and-torches vitriol seems unwarrantedly high, but that’s a different thing.

                3. AD*

                  @AAM
                  If my saying “Keep your sick kids at home, regardless of whatever they have” is pooh-poohing you or others who are not drawing a clear line in the sand on this issue….then yes, I believe I am pooh-poohing your opinion.

                4. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  That’s not what I’m referring to. The disagreement isn’t about bringing in the sick kids, it’s about the firing. But I also think pooh-poohing is fine, so I’m not sure where you’re going with that.

                5. Eliza Jane*

                  I feel like the goalposts keep moving here, though. You commented above that not googling norovirus was her own fault. People responded that a google of norovirus doesn’t make it sound as serious as it sometimes can be. And rather than responding to that, you are saying, again, that she shouldn’t have taken the child to work.

                  No one is disagreeing with the fact that she shouldn’t have taken the child into work. She shouldn’t have! But there is a range of options between, “It was totally okay to bring her child into work” and “she should have known exactly how dangerous this was for immunocompromised children.”

                  My whole family went through norovirus once. I wouldn’t have brought my sick child into work. But I would have refrained because I didn’t want to inconvenience my coworkers, not because I was expecting I’d land them in the hospital if I brought them in. Maybe that makes me horrible and ignorant.

                  But in my world, growing up, everyone had stomach flu every 2-3 years. You’d be out of school for a week in misery, then go back in. When I googled norovirus, not today but a while ago, I was left with the impression that norovirus was a primary cause of stomach flu. That didn’t leave me with the impression that it’s something life-threatening.

                  Again: I’m not saying that it was okay to bring a sick kid to work. It wasn’t okay. But this argument of “she should have magically known all the risks of norovirus!” is a red herring.

                6. BF50*

                  That’s an over simplification.

                  No one is arguing that you should take your sick child to work. The argument is whether this particular woman’s actions in this circumstance warrant immediate firing, or perhaps management should at least have a conversation with her first.

                  It doesn’t seem that that has happened. From my perspective, the result of that conversation could still result in firing, but it isn’t a forgone conclusion based on the information we have here.

            2. AD*

              The first Google result for norovirus is this, on the CDC site:
              Norovirus is a very contagious virus that can infect anyone. You can get it from an infected person, contaminated food or water, or by touching contaminated surfaces. The virus causes your stomach or intestines or both to get inflamed. This leads you to have stomach pain, nausea, and diarrhea and to throw up. These symptoms can be serious for some people, especially young children and older adults.
              If people are claiming that reading that would not make them think twice about confining their sick kid to home, then I really don’t know what to say. Seriously?

              2. BF50*

                *cough *cough
                “My first Google result today for norovirus is….”

                Google results change constantly. Not everyone gets the same google results. Not everyone ignores the sponsored links the pop up before the first true result.

    3. She doesn't even go here*

      It’s not six degrees of kevin bacon to some dude on a bus though. It’s 1 degree to the sick kid. 2 for family members.

      This is really two issues IMO: 1) randomly bringing a kid into the office where that’s not A Thing and 2) using incredibly poor judgment that impacted the rest of the office and not taking responsibility or realizing how much her coworkers and their families suffered for it.

      It’s being a bad coworker, employee and parent all rolled into one.

    4. GigglyPuff*

      Except she did directly cause it. She showed really poor judgment, had no reason to do it, and didn’t even admit to it until a friggin’ public health investigation. I mean in my mind that’s a pretty big deal, common sense and ethically.

    5. Stellaaaaa*

      Something doesn’t have to be strictly against the rules to be a fireable offense. Additionally, you can be fired for things that aren’t objectively wrong or whose consequences couldn’t have been foreseen.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I tend to agree. It’s egregiously bad judgement – would make me seriously question her decisions on other things.

  61. Pwyll*

    I’m not generally supportive of an office wide announcement for this sort of thing, but I think in a situation where the public health department has actually come in to investigate the workplace due to the outbreak, I think it’s absolutely worth sending an all hands “As you know we had a norovirus issue, here’s info on it, and want to reiterate our sick policy”. But maybe I’m misreading things because for public health to get involved up here in New England, it’d have had to be one major norovirus event.

  62. Delta Delta*

    It seems like if there had never previously been a ‘don’t bring sick kids to work’ policy, now would be a good time to make that. Sure, Employee is going to know that it’s because of her. But, this might have been one of those things that didn’t seem like there needed to be a policy because a) common sense or b) nobody thought of it. I don’t know enough about Employee to know if going directly to firing her is necessary but it seems like a pretty serious talk with her is in order.

    I had Norovirus. I got it on an airplane. On my way to a tropical vacation. For my birthday. Luckily we stayed in a nice hotel that had a nice bathroom, because that’s where I spent my tropical birthday weekend. Obviously that’s not as serious as what happened here, but it was awful, and if I got it in the situation described here, I’d be a less than friendly co-worker for a while after that.

    1. ali*

      It might have been as serious and you just don’t know. As you have seen from this post, norovirus is highly contagious so it’s highly likely at least one person on your airplane got it from you. And perhaps the people cleaning your hotel room (who probably don’t have sick time). You have no idea what the consequences of your actions might be here. Just because it was not serious for YOU and just ruined your birthday, you have no idea how many people you exposed, which is exactly the same thing this employee did. The only difference is she is being forced to confront her poor judgement because it has greatly affected people she knows and quite possibly her career.

      1. Cat*

        What did you expect them to do? They caught it on the airplane and couldn’t get back home without getting on another airplane.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Yeah, this isn’t the same thing at all.

          I got horrendously sick once on a trip to visit family at Thanksgiving. I threw up ALL night in a motel room with my boyfriend at the time in attendance. Neither of us got any sleep, and I felt bad about it, but we were already there. I didn’t get sick until we had already been to my brother’s in-law’s house and had dinner, etc. At that point, going home wouldn’t have changed anything. Nobody but me had it; I still don’t know what it was.

        2. ali*

          Sorry, I missed the word “it” – to which I read “I got on an airplane.” rather than “I got IT on an airplane”, which has completely different meaning.

  63. Jenn*

    I’m the camp that doesn’t consider this a firing offense, at least not the first time.

    I know what norovirus is. I was raised by a mum with OCD and I spent my sick days in my room with a bucket of bleach, rubber gloves, and a rag to wipe down doorhandles and anything else I touched regardless of the illness I had, from about the age of 6. So I’m really germ aware and up on health news!

    As a downside, when I get injured or sick or upset I almost literally can’t ask for help because my mum treated me like Patient Zero every time…which actually has caused me to be unable to ask colleagues for help at work if I have to take a sick day and need something followed up on, which has in turn caused me to go in when I shouldn’t.

    My husband, on the other hand, was raised where if one of the four kids got sick, they still got dragged around to all the other kids’ activities if there was no one to watch them, as there often was not because for a period of time both parents were working shiftwork to keep the family above water. He doesn’t think anything about taking kids along to things. He also has a cast-iron stomach. He’s been told what norovirus is but I don’t think it’s in his _first_ set of reactions to take anything where our kids can still walk, talk, and play that seriously.

    Human beings are complicated! And we all have very different upbringings.

    1. neverjaunty*

      I am sure you didn’t mean it quite that way, but I got stuck on “at least not the first time”.

      1. fposte*

        Though if somebody brought a kid with norovirus into the office a second time I think we would all agree that it’s firing time.

        I’m thinking about how I’d handle the situation if I were the co-worker’s manager, and I think, if I were keeping her, I’d make the point that I need her to have solid relationships with her colleagues and that hers have taken huge damage, so I want to see a reputation rehab plan from her. Right now it seems like that aspect is not happening, and I agree with those saying that she’s likely to be doomed long-term there if she doesn’t do some repair work.

    2. Confused*

      Yeah… I don’t get the “FIRE HER” thing – as someone who grew up in a house with a doctor, who is studying biophysics, who worked at a summer camp for several years (including in the kitchen), and who has a chronic health condition that is presumably autoimmune (even if my diagnosis is wrong, it probably is). I really don’t get it.

      I get it even less after reading the CDC’s stuff on norovirus.

      1. neverjaunty*

        You likely would get it, though, after you’d had the public health folks show up, numerous people in your office stricken ill, and a child and elderly person hospitalized.

  64. Angela Harris*

    I think there should be some kind of punishment. Just no sure what. The pact that people got hospitalized there needs to be something more stern.

  65. Spiny*

    If my kid ended up in the hospital because of this, with no apology and detailed plea of ignorance of how germs and sick leave and personal responsibility works, we would be DONE.
    And while I would interact as needed for work, shunning seems quite appropriate.

  66. LadyPhoenix*

    Sorry, but I have no sympathy for flagrently negligent and unrepentant coworker. Even if her child had the cold, she still failed one of the most basic etiquette rules: do not touch food while sick. She should have known better.

    And because of her MULTIPLE people and their loved ones and possibly many more got sick because of her flippant attitude. if she was informed to the fullest extent what chaos her actions wrought, and still doesn’t get it– then there is no helping this woman.

    She needs to fully understand the consequences and apologize for her actions, ESPECIALLY to the family if the other sick child and the family with the sick elder.

    If she doesn’t, welp, I don’t blame the coworkers. she committed a severe violation of trust

  67. Karin*

    As someone who has a Primary Immune Deficiency, if I worked with someone thought norovirus was no big deal, and knowingly brought it into the work environment, call me petty, but I would associate with that person as little as possible from then on. Sure, I’d be civil and do required work with them when I had to, but that would be it. No apology would be enough to make up for me possibly getting sick enough to spend several days in hospital. And I wouldn’t really care if that person had hurt feelings.

      1. Karin*

        The only reason I’d be civil is because I am a professional person who tries to behave professionally at all times.

        But if it were not in connection with work? Shunning would happen. There’s no excuse for bringing a child with as serious an illness as norovirus is to work with you.

    2. SQL Coder Cat*

      My mom had to move in with my husband and I due to the severity of her Primary Immune Deficiency (the only place she gets to go during flu season is the outpatient center for her immunobody infusion). I am very fortunate to have a boss who encourages everyone to work from home if they’re only a little sick rather than come in the office, and who regularly reminds us that sick days are there to be used. We don’t know the details of what symptoms the child was displaying, but if he was vomiting or having diarrhea there is no way he should have been in the office, even if sick kids in the office was a ‘normal’ thing for their culture. Given that the worst didn’t happen to anyone, I don’t think I would be calling for the parent to be fired… but I would be limiting my contact with this person to email-only from then on. The immunocompromised and their families can’t afford to take unnecessary chances. While I appreciate that she could have been ignorant of what norovirus entails, what if someone had died? These are real fears for those of us dealing with these situations, and I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect anyone dealing with this to feel comfortable being around this woman without a sincere and public expression of remorse, and a statement that this situation would never be repeated.

  68. Bend & Snap*

    I’m curious as to what accommodations besides sick leave the OP’s office has in place. Could the employee have worked remotely if absolutely needed?

    That said, no way should she ever have brought that kid to work. As a coworker I would never forgive her.

    Frankly, it’s hard to see how she didn’t just tank her career there, even if there aren’t any consequences from management. Nobody will ever trust her or want to work with her after this.

  69. Critter*

    I kinda wonder if the mom got sick herself, and if she didn’t, how she managed not to. It’s super contagious. Hmm.

    Also wondering what kind of culture this is. Why didn’t she feel comfortable telling her boss what was up and just being honest about it? “My child is sick, I don’t have alternate options for childcare, what are my options for time off in this situation?”

    1. Delta Delta*

      When I got it I was in a hotel room with my husband for a weekend. He never got it, somehow. Very very lucky, I guess.

    2. Anon for this*

      There are some genetic factors that affect how likely someone is to show norovirus symptoms.

      1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

        Yup. I’m very prone to it. Nearly every time I am exposed, I get it. It’s awful. My husband is even more prone than me, which means when it hits our house, it’s not pretty! It’s funny, because I actually have a pretty strong immune system for most other illnesses. If I find out someone that I am in close contact with has it, I actually get a little panicky, because I know the odds are EXTREMELY high that I will get it, too. And for me, it just involves being miserable for a couple days.

        The last time I had it, I had JUST started a new job and had hardly any PTO accrued. My boss was still pretty adamant that I stay home. (Which was a good thing. I was completely useless.)

  70. animaniactoo*

    My discomfort with the advice given here is that there’s no advice on how to handle this if after talking to her, the employee STILL doesn’t who an appropriate level of remorse/understanding for how bad this turned out to be.

    I can see how she got there… she thought it was not really that big a deal. Whatever brought her into the office with sick kid (and I would seriously question this, because I want to know her mindset of what she thought was important enough to covertly bring her kid into work), she didn’t think she was exposing the office to this much risk. Once she realized how big a deal it was, she was afraid and didn’t want to speak up for fear of being in even worse trouble. Now she’s completely busted and hunkering down and waiting out the storm.

    But… for me to see a way clear to keeping her around after she allowed the situation to get worse when she saw it spreading and knew the symptoms were the same as her son’s and didn’t speak up so that whatever could be done to mitigate the spread at THAT point… I’d need to see some serious ownership on her part.

    I’d need her to take an assignment to see what she could do to resolve the situation with her coworkers and see what she does with that. I’d be willing to gameplan that with her – but I need the first idea of how to do that to come from her.

    Without that… yes, people shouldn’t necessarily be fired for screwups, even when they turn into a major mess. But I do think that they need to be disciplined and perhaps fired for inability/failure to appropriately deal with the fallout of their screwups.

    1. NW Mossy*

      I think part of why Alison’s response is measured is because there’s not enough in the letter to assume that the employee wouldn’t understand the issue (or worse, fight the characterization of it as an issue) after a discussion with her boss.

      Most reasonable people can recognize when they’ve been put on notice by their boss after a screw-up and will make an effort to try to make it right. They understand that a capital-T Talk with the boss carries with it the implicit assumption that the boss could fire them and that the ice underneath their feet is getting precariously thin. As reasonably rational people, they’ll understand that they need an extended period of flawless performance to push this incident off the first page of mental search results on the phrase “Things I Think Of When I Think of Jane.”

      I guess what I’m saying is that it’s a bit unfair to assume that anyone who’s erred will double down on that error, absent a prior history of doing that. Most people don’t, and often the most helpful thing you can do to ensure that someone can recover from an error is having some confidence in them that they can, in fact, recover.

      1. animaniactoo*

        The thing is that the employee already did double down when they didn’t speak up while the virus was continuing to spread… knowing what it was.

        Based on that, is why I would want to see advice given for how to handle it if the employee doesn’t show remorse/understanding when OP asks her if her assessment of it not being a big deal has changed now that she sees the fallout.

        1. NW Mossy*

          I guess I read that action somewhat differently, because it doesn’t sound like her failure to admit was in direct response to a corrective statement from the OP about her actions. Instead, it’s a generalized “I’m going to hunker down and hope this blows over,” which a lot of people will engage in if they feel like they’re taking heat from multiple corners. It reads non-specific to the boss/employee relationship to me, and that seems significant to me.

          1. animaniactoo*

            I also understand the instinct, and said so in my initial post here – but the fact that I understand it doesn’t mean that I can excuse it in an employee who apparently hasn’t expressed any real remorse yet. I have to recognize that as part of a series of bad decisions, because while it’s one overall situation, there are several intermediary steps that didn’t happen and each one of those was a choice. It’s important for the employee to understand that each was a choice and a chance to *actually* minimize the damage that was being done.

            It’s also the fact that when you say “most rational people would…” – well yes, that’s what most rational people would do. However there’s the outliers, who are also actually pretty common here, who are going to be defensive and minimizing “I just really didn’t think it was that big a deal. If he hadn’t gotten out of the office, it wouldn’t have been such a problem that I brought him here.”, etc. and I would like to see more specific advice to the LW from that front for that very reason. So that they employee’s takeaway is not “If I ever “have” to do this again, I need to be more on top of it and make sure he doesn’t get out of my office.” which is what I would be REALLY concerned about if I was not seeing an appropriate level of understanding/remorse in that conversation.

  71. Recruit-o-Rama*

    This whole thread makes me thankful I work from home. Years and years ago when I worked in an office I had a co-worker who had a child who seemed to catch every bug. When she took time off, she was resented by some of our co-workers to the point that they were constantly saying “she should be fired!” And then I come here and read the down right vicious attacks on this person (calling her a low life and jerk and many other names)and I can’t help but think women will never win.

    On the bright side, I seem to have found the one place on the internet where everyone knows absolutely everything and has never made a mistake in their lives!

    I hope very much that the people who became seriously ill as a result of this were able to recover and I hope the woman with the norovirus infected child has learned something (without her livelihood being destroyed). I also hope her employer has a serious sit down with her to discuss the consequences of her decision along with a through explanation of the company sick leave policy so she is fully aware of options that could help prevent this in the future.

    2. Aurion*

      I think the reaction is so strong because this woman has not shown much, or anything, in the way of apology or remorse. Had she been horrified about the results of the norovirus spread her coworkers and this forum may not be coming down as hard.

      1. Recruit-o-Rama*

        Yes, I read through all the comments, I saw all the reasons why everyone thinks this “terrible person” “low life” “jerk” should be immediately fired, and possibly hung in the public square.

        1. AMG*

          Well, I called her a terrible person and said she should be fired. I must have missed the one where she gets hung up in the public square. Seems a bit extreme.

          1. animaniactoo*

            That she’s not showing remorse may not mean that she’s not remorseful. She may not have any real training in how to handle a screwup other than “minimize, hide, and wait until people move on”.

            1. Aurion*

              That’s still absolutely on her, though. Adults should communicate and not hunker down with a nonchalant shrug. Especially since public health got involved.

              So whether or not she’s internally remorseful, she doesn’t seem like it either way. Intent matters for sure, but actions matter more. So until she actually shows remorse, I will proceed as if she’s not remorseful, and thus I’d be pretty angry at this woman too if I had her as a coworker.

              1. animaniactoo*

                As a co-worker, that’s fine. As a manager, I think you can’t afford to stop at this and the advice here is supposed to be directed at the LW as her manager. A manager has to see a bigger picture which includes the growth of the employee in a considered handling of the situation and not an automatic write-off as “jerk”. That’s all I’m saying here.

                1. Aurion*

                  Oh, I wasn’t giving advice to the OP; I feel like that’s been adequately covered and then some already. I was only commenting on why this particular woman is getting such a strong reaction from the commentariat and the coworkers at OP’s workplace.

      2. Elizabeth H.*

        Yes, absolutely. I am not calling for her to be fired but if she were horrified and remorseful it’d be really different. She doesn’t have to as Alison put it wear a hair shirt – just say something with the level of import of, “I am so sorry this happened. I just wasn’t thinking. I feel terrible that others got sick, I had no idea my child would be so contagious and I never intended for him to be in a public area where he could infect others. I realize it was completely inappropriate to bring my sick child to work, especially when I had been informed that he was likely to have the serious illness norovirus.”

        It’s possible that there is more to her reaction than was communicated in the letter. We only know what she said to the public health unit investigators, not what she has said to other coworkers and she may have said things to the manager or other coworkers since this happened that expressed this type of regret and that she understands the implications of the situation.

    3. AMG*

      Well, I think you’re right in saying she will never win. If she understands this correctly, she might even consider updating her resume and looking for the right role somewhere else.

      1. Recruit-o-Rama*

        I didn’t say “she” will never win, I said “women” will never win. I said it after I gave an example from my previous work history of a woman who DID take off for her sick child and the resentment she faced for it. If we cannot allow ourselves to imagine the reasons why some people might make these kinds of bad decisions, we will never be able to resolve the underlying causes.

        A company sick policy can oftentime be very different than the office culture and even more different from an individual employees perception of the policy, which may be informed by things we know nothing about.

        1. Adam V*

          I don’t see why gender comes into this just because the people involved in both this case and yours were women. If the OP’s coworker were a man, I don’t see anyone saying “oh, well, because he’s a man, he doesn’t know any better, all is forgiven”.

          1. Recruit-o-Rama*

            I know there are plenty of men who do a lot of the heavy lifting of parenting but the reality is that it’s normally the mothers. There is a reason why the phrase “mommy track” is a thing. Ignoring that women have a steeper climb is just ignoring reality.

          2. Confused*

            Gender comes into it because it’s far more common in US society (and most western societies) that women are the ones expected to care for children. If you try to work despite a sick child as a woman you’re either in trouble due to not caring enough for the child (yes, I have seen this come up in discussion, though not on AAM) or you’re fighting with ridiculous childcare costs and therefore having to choose between paying ridiculous amounts for that or taking your kid to work (and then facing backlash like some in this comment section for not making a choice that better recognizes the needs of your office). I think that situation comes up more often with hourly employees or are choosing between losing money by not working (and then possibly risking a job) or losing money paying for daycare – and may not apply here.

            If you don’t work, you’re a reason why employers might not want to hire women (especially mothers or women they judge likely to have children due to age and/or relationship status), since you’re not prioritizing your work over your children.

            That said, I know Alison has been encouraging people to stay away from debates about sexism unless it’s truly helpful to the LW’s question, and I’m not sure in this case it is that helpful to them finding a solution.

  72. Merida May*

    Yeah, you definitely need to have a chat with her OP, as I imagine her flippancy over the seriousness of her actions is really rubbing salt into the wound for a lot of her coworkers. If she doesn’t understand why her actions were severely problematic this is the time to illustrate that, so at the very least there is an understanding that something like this cannot happen again. Or, if she’s buying her head into the sand because she doesn’t know what else to do, it’s an opportunity to give her necessary guidance so she can reach out to the affected coworkers and start mending fences.

  73. Blue Cat*

    To all the people who insist she should be fired, I wonder if they would support firing anyone who came into work sick or brought in a sick child. She probably has plenty of coworkers who have come in sick and never faced consequences for it.

    I happen to agree that she should be fired, as I think keeping her would be detrimental to moral in the office and could cause good people to quit, but it should be a policy that applies to everyone. It’s not fair to only fire people after the consequences become known.

    1. Doe-eyed*

      I think if people come to sick with an illness that has to get the Health Department involved it should certainly be on the table, especially in an office where there appears to be plenty of sick time and no push back to using it.

    2. Temperance*

      I think there’s a huge difference between spreading a cold and spreading a serious infectious disease, but yes, if this woman knew that her colleague’s child was undergoing cancer treatment and she brought a sick kid to work, I would want her fired.

      Although the Department of Health wouldn’t investigate the spread of a cold ….

      1. AMG*

        And then she was dishonest about it–the truth only came out during the course of an investigation. So questionable integrity and character.

        1. Temperance*

          I think that piece of it is the most angering to me. You almost killed a kid with cancer, and your first instinct is to minimize and CYA? She knew bringing the kid to work was wrong, which was why she hid him in her office and then apparently failed to properly supervise him or clean up after him. This makes me rage.

  74. Brandy*

    I wonder why her child was alone long enough in her office, where was she, to be able to get out and wonder to the potluck and elsewhere.

    That’s just such a hazard. he could’ve been hurt easily.

  75. zora*

    Is anyone else obsessively using hand sanitizer since reading this post?
    No?…. just me?
    I’ll see myself out………

    1. Elizabeth H.*

      Yes! I’m a pretty careful handwasher already – I count the requisite amount of seconds and everything, I decided to make a concerted effort to wash my hands longer and better about a year and a half ago, and I think it really made a difference. But I am definitely feeling the need to do it more today, haha

    2. Marcy*

      Hah, I work with an immunocompromised colleague and I have a toddler. I think I’ll just spend the next century in a hazmat suit to play it safe. I need this job.

    3. Temperance*

      I have a routine after I caught a serious infection last year. I have sanitizer in my office that I hit up every single time I leave and return. It probably sounds like overkill, but apparently not, because my coworker might bring in a child with norovirus and they might touch everything in the kitchen and bathroom.

          2. zora*

            Yikes!!! okay good to know, thanks for sharing…

            I have a routine, too, I take public transportation so I wash my hands with hot water when I get to the office, and I do that if I leave the building for lunch. And we have hand sanitizer in our office. But we also have a thing of clorox wipes, I should apparently use those around the office space more often;, and more hot water washing!

  76. Kinsley M.*

    I really don’t think it can be stressed enough that a co-workers child ALMOST DIED. I can’t believe Alison’s advice doesn’t even mention that. What would have happened had the child died? How does the advice change? Are we still supposed to give this woman the benefit of the doubt that she just didn’t know it was a big deal? I’m just completely flabbergasted that this woman still thinks it’s NBD, and the advice is just a stern talk?

    1. AMG*

      I can’t get past it either! And people are taking issue with my calling this woman a terrible person!

      1. ZTwo*

        Possibly because there’s nothing in the letter to indicate anyone almost died? I’m not trying to downplay hospitalization–I’m at risk for hospitalization for normally not-as-serious illnesses and I’ve been hospitalized in the past because of this–but even with chemo as a factor that can run the gamut of “needed to be there for some extra fluid intake” to “absolutely on the brink of death”. We don’t know which (or if the coworker was aware that someone’s kid was in chemo or even if now she knows they were hospitalized) and I think it’s reasonable for Allison (and others) to not assume the absolute worst case or intentions with her advice.

        1. TCO*

          Yep, and anyone undergoing chemo is probably quite likely to be hospitalized for even minor illnesses out of an abundance of caution. It’s possible that the child’s life was indeed seriously threatened, but there’s no evidence in the letter to assume that.

        2. AMG*

          Yeah, nobody really thinks that, ‘Oh, I will assume that this is a bug that only affects kids and not adults, elderly, or people with compromised immune systems. It’s probably only other kids.’
          That’s the point, in fact. A reasonable person would not have done what she did, and people went to the hospital as a result. Then she was dishonest, let the kids wander around, and didn’t apologize to top it off. She is not reasonable and the situation is remarkably bad. That’s why she should be fired.

        3. AMG*

          Nope, that’s not it. Beg your pardon on the semantics. Someone’s extremely ill child who is on chemo needed to go to the hospital and may or may not have been in a life-threatening situation due to the coworkers carelessness and selfishness. And dishonesty. Still not seeing why this person should not be fired.

    2. TCO*

      I don’t want to downplay how serious the child’s sickness may have been. But claiming that they “ALMOST DIED” could be an exaggeration, even for someone sick with cancer and norovirus. We just don’t know.

  77. Lindsay (Not a Temp Anymore)*

    OMG! As I’m reading this, our department secretary walks in with her sister, holding her infant nephew, and sweetly telling everyone he’s just been to the Dr. with an upper respiratory virus.

    GO HOME! YOU DON’T WORK HERE!

  78. Bow Ties Are Cool*

    Goodness. This morning I heard (on Facebook) that norovirus has been spotted in my city, and immediately commenced obsessive hand sanitizer overuse. Having had both norovirus and pneumonia twice (not at the same time!), I can honestly say I would rather go a third round with pneumonia, given the choice. If someone brought their norovirus-infected spawn INTO OUR OFFICE, I would go bat-spit ballistic.

    If I actually *caught* it, I would probably sneak into the office early to breathe on her keyboard every time I got sick for the rest of our time together.

  79. Meena*

    I’m so sorry Allison – this might be petty but I’d never trust her again, nor be friends with her. I’d be as polite as I need to be, but that is just such a staggering disregard for anyone else in the world that I couldn’t respect a person like that. Norovirus is not a cold.

    1. Adam V*

      I think if the OP tells their employees “I honestly don’t think she knew the consequences” and they responded “that’s fine, but that doesn’t exempt her from them, I’m going to continue to keep my distance from her”, I don’t think anyone should hold that against them.

      You do run the risk of being seen as “unsocial” or “not-inclusive”, and they might never be able to put you in a supervisory role above that person, though. So do keep in mind that keeping your distance could have repercussions to you as well.

  80. Confused*

    (Note that I was raised in a household with one parent being a doctor and am concluding an undergraduate degree in biophysics this semester, I have worked in kitchens in a summer camp, and along the same lines as that, I have worked with children at a summer camp for several years.)

    I’m really baffled by just how upset so many people are. I get that there were serious consequences in this instance, but I can’t imagine firing this woman for this decision. A serious discussion about her decision making process here? Sure. Telling her that a sick kid shouldn’t be in the office? Sure. But *firing*? (I’m also unclear as to why public health got involved with a norovirus outbreak when it wasn’t a food service location – that makes no sense to me.)

    Plus, working at a summer camp for years – yeah, if you’re puking or had diarrhea, you are not working in the kitchen that day. But you’re certainly still working with the kids. Have a fever? Have body aches? Be so sick you can’t really move? You might not be working that extensively with the kids, but you’re certainly still sleeping in the same room as them (probably in a bunk bed with a kid in the other bunk). The kids are that way? They’re almost certainly still in program, interacting with other kids and counselors.

    I definitely did think of norovirus as the stomach flu. After reading all the people infuriated by this idea, I googled it… in the UK it’s got the name “Winter Vomiting Bug” and after reading the CDC’s website on norovirus, I don’t get the impression it’s any more serious than I thought it was. It’s the stomach flu. It’s exactly what I always through of as the stomach flu. It’s no more or less dangerous than I ever thought of. Is a nightmare for anyone immunocompromised? Well yes – like most illnesses. Would your anger be any different if her kid had had a cold and been sent home and she took him in? Or the flu? Or strep? Or chicken pox? Or threw up once at school and that was that? Any contagious illness is going to be a nightmare for immunocompromised people, and of course you do everything you can to not infect them. But the way people are responding to this it sounds like they think she tried to kill those people without strong immune systems who were related to coworkers, and I doubt that was the intent.

    1. Confused*

      Also I have a chronic health condition – doesn’t make me immuncocompromised, but is (by diagnosis) an autoimmune disorder, so my immune system is probably “distracted” so to speak. I still don’t get all the responses here.

      1. WebMD*

        I find your take interesting because I literally had never heard of the word “norovirus” before reading this letter and after I googled it I thought “oh so like those stomach bugs I used to get as a kid all the time. Gross” then I got into the comments and when I saw people advocating for her immediate termination and I got really confused. FWIW I rarely went to the doctor growing up and I got sick all the time with stomach bugs (did I actually have a norovirus?!) so I’m def one of the “ignorants” on here. Of course she should definitely feel bad (maybe she’s feels so ashamed and embarrassed she shut down and that’s coming off as not remorseful?) but I don’t think it’s fair to say she is evil incarnate because it’s possible she (like me) legitimately did not know a norovirus is a very big deal.

        1. Kat*

          I said this before, but most if not all daycares inform parents about a virus when it is present, the dangers of it and what to do/what not to do. They usually also print out materials on norovirus and give them to all parents, so I am guessing she either knew or did not pay attention when it was explained to her.

          Also the norovirus is not just a stomach bug. I had bad stomach problems as a child and they don’t compare to the norovirus. Always wash your hands everybody!

          1. Confused*

            “Norovirus, sometimes known as winter vomiting bug in the UK, is the most common cause of viral gastroenteritis in humans. It affects people of all ages.”

            It’s the most common cause of stomach bugs. Its common name in the UK is effectively stomach bug. If someone had many stomach bugs through childhood, they probably had it at some point.

            As a kid I once stayed home from school for two or three days because I couldn’t keep *anything* down. I mean I threw up everything I ate or drank (or most of it, or I would have been much more dehydrated) for three days. After that I was perfectly normal (and very hungry). At camp one year I was sick for almost a full day and threw up at least three times before being perfectly normal the next morning (just in time to take a 10 hour bus ride home!). There was plenty of body ache (though I’vd also had much worse in terms of body ache) and at least on the first of these cases a fever for a bit (and I never, ever, get fevers). If that doesn’t compare, then I think the descriptions on the CDC are not clear enough.

      2. Tilly*

        In the UK whenever there is an outbreak in a school, hospital or workplace the building is closed and a deep clean takes place. People are advised to avoid work and even avoid visiting the doctors to prevent others getting ill. None of this happens for stomach bugs as they are nothing in comparison to norovirus. It is incredibly contagious and has to be dealt with differently than other common illnesses – that is for a reason!

    2. Temperance*

      It *is* more serious than you think it is, apparently. It is absolutely not comparable to the common cold. Norovirus sends healthy, non-compromised people to the hospital regularly. An outbreak is serious business, and I’m frankly not surprised that the health department became involved when so many people caught ill from the same location. They needed to confirm that it wasn’t tainted catering or something that put even more people in danger, most likely.

        1. Confused*

          Yes, the fact that she didn’t admit to it is a huge problem – and that’s where I agree that the discussion needs to be more serious than “Hey, why did you think it was a good idea to take the kid in in the first place?” That’s a big problem. I still can’t really see it as a fireable offense – assuming it’s something that hasn’t happened before and doesn’t happen again. If she has a history of covering up mistakes, then yes, that might move me more toward agreeing it’s worth firing her over. But if it’s a one-time thing, *even with how serious this could have been* I don’t think it’s worth that.

      2. Confused*

        And Temperance – you make a good point. I hadn’t thought about checking the catering to see if it came from a company. That does make more sense. And (even looking at the CDC website for their information on norovirus) I had not gotten the impression that it regularly hospitalized people. The only way I saw that happening was if severe dehydration occurred – and of course that can occur from extensive vomiting and/or diarrhea, but most people know how to counter dehydration, and as long as you aren’t vomiting that up immediately, you’ll be okay.

        I’ve had a few days of not being able to keep anything (I mean ANYTHING) down. I did come through it okay.

        I also vomit when I menstruate (thank god for hormonal birth control countering that – before BC, I would be nauseated when waking and with every meal, and if there was nothing left in me to vomit, I just dry heaved for ten minutes) so maybe I’m just less turned off by the concept or used to hydrating myself against it.

        1. fposte*

          Though as with any disease, stats skew toward the worse cases, because mild cases don’t get reported.

        2. Temperance*

          I honestly only know how terrible it can be on a grand scale because I was part of an outbreak a few years ago. I knew it was highly contagious and very, very unpleasant, but when you see it hit over 100 other people, as well as some family members … not great. That’s why I’m so viscerally angry at her.

    3. Doe-eyed*

      Yeah I work in a GI office and I’m supporting what people say here. Norovirus routinely sends normal, healthy folks to the ED. It isn’t something to wander around with. The health department responds to outbreaks of norovirus for this reason.

      1. Confused*

        Do they end up in the ED due to dehydration? Are they just not keeping any liquids down or do they just not understand that they need to hydrate (something with electrolytes, please, not just water!) when they’ve got these symptoms? I’m not say it’s their fault if it’s the latter, I just wonder if that’s a fault of our health education system not making it extra clear that you’re losing a ton of fluids and water alone is not enough.

        1. Doe-eyed*

          Typically for dehydration and it’s because you can’t stop throwing up and having diarrhea to take in water in appropriate amounts. We’ve had patients take a couple of swallows of anything and then be throwing up/retching/on the toilet for 5-10 minutes. You’re also typically in a lot of pain so it’s hard to really push yourself to take stuff in because you just want to lie in misery in the toilet.

          1. Confused*

            Ah, yes, I was there as a child once. Could not keep any liquids down, basically didn’t eat for two or three days drank some, but most of it came up every time), slept in the bathroom next to the toilet… I think I was 9 or 10?

            That didn’t lead to hospitalization for me, but to be fair, with a parent doctor, we tended not to go to the hospital unless there was the potential for a sprain, fracture, concussion, plus that time they thought I might have meningitis but I really had torticollis, the time my doctor parent had kidney stones – otherwise it’d just be doctor clinic visits to get diagnosed (as when I was/am trying to get my pain condition diagnosed or when my mother was trying to figure out what was going on when she had a pheochromocytoma, when she’d been having BP spikes with systolic over 200). We might have been a little lax because we figured Doctor Dad could generally figure things out or tell us when we really really needed to go, as opposed to “you’ll probably be okay, we’ll just keep an eye on it, do this this and this.”

    4. Bow Ties Are Cool*

      I wouldn’t call for firing her, unless she pulled a similar stunt again.

      However, the thing about norovirus is that it’s just so memorably unpleasant. Here’s the official list of “typical” symptoms from the NIH: “nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal cramps, fatigue, headache, and muscle aches”. My experience of it was having a 102-degree fever with the kind of fatigue, achiness and chills you expect from a particularly nasty strain of the ‘flu, like H1N1. And while that was going on, expelling everything I’d eaten for the last month or two violently out of both ends, while invisible knives sprouted in my gut. And that went on for 2-3 days, followed by a couple of weeks in which anything that wasn’t toast, rice or applesauce made my stomach do somersaults.

      And that is why I would be extremely and implacably angry at anyone in my office who knowingly brought it in.

      1. Confused*

        That’s fair. Maybe I’m just less horribly affected by all that because (1) chronic health condition that makes fatigue and muscle/joint aches are daily and (2) I vomit, am nauseated, have bad cramps, and have migraines when on my period (much much less so with birth control (yay BC!)) so while all of that certainly sucks (and sucks long term) it’s also pretty much par for the course in my life… it’s like a slightly more time-concentrated part of living so it doesn’t seem quite so awful maybe as it would to someone who isn’t “used to” all of that.

        1. Elizabeth H.*

          To be honest, I feel the same way. It doesn’t affect everyone as severely as it does others and it is not extremely rare. I do feel like I know what norovirus is (I haven’t had it myself though) and I share your impression of its severity: it really sucks, it can be very severe and send people to the hospital, but often doesn’t, and people with weaker health can die from it. Just like with a heat wave. Or with food poisoning, I know some people who have had to be hospitalized with food poisoning for rehydration and a lot who haven’t been. Listeria for example is much rarer and much deadlier. Meanwhile norovirus, while a serious illness, results in hospitalization fewer than 1% of cases and death rate is like 1% of the hospitalization rate. I think that the employee was thoughtless and used poor judgment but I don’t think that norovirus is as fearsome as yellow fever. My take on it is that it is notably more serious than she seems to think it was, but probably also less serious than has been suggested elsewhere in comments.

          1. Confused*

            According to the CDC: Norovirus is the leading cause of illness and outbreaks from contaminated food in the United States.

            So most food poisoning probably is norovirus.

            But yeah, I agree with you.

    5. LCL*

      I think there is a tendency by people that don’t work in the medical field to look at disease as a simplified cause and effect chain of circumstances. Joaquin had a cold, therefore I got my cold from Joaquin. If you look at it this simply, you can believe that you can avoid all illness. There was a local hospital of some reknown that adverstised their cancer treatment program with a voiceover that started “I did everything right.’ That ad campaign died a fast death.

      Yeah, medicine is supposed to be evidence based, and noro and other illnesses are caused by viruses. But the chain of cause and effect isn’t always simple or obvious because there are too many variables. So we simplify and blame. It’s easier to classify bad things if you simplify it. Realistically, we’re all going to die of something, and in the West that something will more likely be disease than accident.

    6. Evergreen*

      I really like this comment! It’s so easy to imagine the sick coworker growing up the way you’ve described and treating illnesses as no big deal, nothing to get in the way of work. I think a lot of people (myself included) grew up in this kind of environment.

      I hope we’re seeing that change for the better.

  81. PM-NYC*

    Personally, I agree that this woman was out of line and needs to apologize and make amends if she can, but I don’t think she should be fired. Personally, I know that a lot about the way I view illness and sick days is probably carried over from my childhood and how my family viewed illness. My family was very much a “unless you’re vomiting or feverish you’re going to school” type of family, and this idea of powering through is still my first instinct, even at jobs where I get sick days. I was hospitalized for norovirus several years ago so I understand how bad it is, but this thread alone is evidence that knowledge about the severity of norovirus varies a lot. I think this woman was negligent and careless but not malevolent. However, not immediately apologizing once she knew the consequences is horrible.

  82. Sue Wilson*

    Maybe it’s just me, but I’d consider it part of my assessment of someone’s judgment if they didn’t know how contagious norovirus was when they’d been told that they or their child was at risk. Not because I’d expect them to know beforehand, but because I’d expect them to get the information right away. By no means would I accept that someone was ignorant of an illness’s effects and decided that because they didn’t know, it couldn’t be a big deal.

    And then the rest gets worse, from not speaking up when there was an investigation to not expressing remorse in a way that would at least attempt to show that they understood the judgment miss they made.

    Honestly, I probably wouldn’t fire them for the mistake, but I think if the atmosphere remained bad, and I thought someone had to leave it would be her. I couldn’t in good conscience tell others that they would have to be more than polite and professional to someone who had harmed their loved ones, inadvertently or no.

  83. EmilyC*

    This thread is fascinating. I think it’s likely that the employee did not understand how contagious norovirus is. I had norovirus recently and I did not understand at the time how easily it spreads! And, in my experience, the symptoms make it very difficult to mask or ignore, so it is definitely possible that her child showed a very mild symptoms or none at all. Otherwise, I think that child would have been hiding out in the toilet stall, rather than mom’s office.

    1. Kat*

      Daycares inform parents about viruses and diseases when they have outbreaks, usually verbally and with materials. They do this for the children, but also for legal and insurance reasons, so the woman or her spouse were most-likely told about the severity of it.

      I caught the norovirus and didn’t know what it was at the time (I did google, called my GP and figured it out), but I knew enough to stay away from everyone and clean everything thoroughly when sick and then again once I felt better. I felt awful for almost 2 days until I started to feel better, but I still knew it was still contagious. Basically if the school won’t take your kid, don’t bring your kid to work.

  85. Nobody Here By That Name*

    We had a norovirus outbreak here at my job a few years ago. It started with a couple of us, then so many getting hit it was like that scene in Gone With the Wind when the camera pulls back to show all the suffering soldiers.

    I have a crappy immune system myself so this was another round of me needing more or less 3x the sick leave as everyone else in order to deal with this illness.

    No Health Services came, but deduction traced it back to a guy who came into work after getting it from his kid and who’d apparently been contagious even though he didn’t have symptoms severe enough to require staying home. (This was a SEVERE outbreak where we all had tales of our inability to be far from the toilet, so once symptoms hit you knew it.)

    I’ve also had separate instances of people exposing me to bad illnesses when they should have known better, such as the time my own brother didn’t tell me about his kids having strep until after they’d gone home (and cue another lost week of work for me).

    So my personal reaction to people who don’t treat contagious diseases with respect at all, let alone for those of us with weak immune systems, is a deep desire to rage.

    That being said – I agree with Alison’s advice based on what we know right now. Yes, it was horrible that a child ended up in the hospital and the grandmother was made sick. However, as somebody who deals with this kind of issue myself, anytime you leave the house you are risking this exposure. Just as Alison found out – it could be a random person you bump into somewhere just as easily as a co-worker. It sucks and is horrible but it’s a reality of a life like mine.

    The kid felt well enough to go hunting for cake. When I had full on norovirus I couldn’t cope with the idea of WATER. (Heck, I couldn’t even MOVE.) This suggests the kid wasn’t showing big symptoms yet. Given how often it’s true that you should never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity, I can easily see a situation where the kid was only a little sick, his mom didn’t know how bad and contagious norovirus could be, and thus saw no more harm than usual in having her kid at work for a few hours. If she does not work in a field that requires knowledge of norovirus and/or explicitly forbids kids in the workplace, these are not fireable offenses.

    To me, the issue is in her various judgement calls after. Hence why I agree with Allison’s suggestion about the conversation to be had. If the employee shows no remorse over what happened, no desire to make things right, and/or no desire to do things differently then she’s showing she does not have good judgement and should be watched accordingly.

    But if they do not work in food or healthcare or a field like it this is not, IMO, a reason to immediately show her the door. Even though I would be one of the people absolutely FURIOUS with her if she was in my office, and would probably not be waiting for OP to have this conversation before having it myself.

  86. ihatewinter*

    There are so many comments I don’t know if this has been mentioned. But if your child is sick you want to make him as comfortable as possible. Just bring that poor child home!

  87. ScreenAway*

    Three years ago my kids contracted a highly infectious skin disease that took a full 10 days to treat and clear up. This involved washing the infected areas minimum twice daily, bandages and a full course of antibiotics. Before we knew what was going on, they played with all of their best friends, one of whom takes some serious pills for his childhood arthritis that leaves him pretty vunerable.

    I had the “pleasure” of alerting three sets of parents, sorry, your kids have been exposed to impetigo…and thank the Lord, no other child caught it and I am also thankful they didn’t miss school as this was during the summer. I was so concerned and embarrassed. My kids were friendless and playmate-less for 10 long days. Believe me, we celebrated when they were cleared up. And this was not a life threatening illness at all but very, very inconvenient with a small risk of something worse.

    To say nothing, even when more and more co-workers and friends were reporting sickness that was spreading beyond the office, that would be my issue. People share bugs – I didn’t get this cold virus on my own and crap happens and generally, I generally won’t apologize for sharing a cold but if I know it was clearly from me, I will give a sheepish apology.

    But if you are still thinking it is not a big deal by the time the Public Health Authorities show up, what would this person do when there’s an outbreak of something super serious? There’s an integrity issue here and that merits a serious conversation.

  88. Jeanne*

    The woman is not a sociopath. I think her behavior was awful. But let’s address a point in the OP’s letter. Etiquette has the “cut direct” which is a way for society to express their disapproval. I think that her coworkers are behaving appropriately. They are angry, rightly so. They are not attacking her. They are not asking you to fire her. They are just refusing to socialize with her or interact with her beyond job necessary things. I think in the end she will have to live with that and you don’t need to direct them otherwise.

  89. Elder Dog*

    I wouldn’t fire this woman. Not this time.
    I would have a long talk wherein I would expect sincere remorse, and horror at what could have happened.
    I would also expect, and if she didn’t offer I would tell her I expect, her to donate her vacation time to people who had to use up their sick time because she brought her child to work.
    I would also hope she would have the decency to pay deductibles and out of pocket expenses for affected co-workers along with a sincere apology.
    I wouldn’t demand. I would expect and I would hope. If she didn’t meet my expectations and hopes, that would be information that would seriously negatively affect my opinion of her judgement.

  90. Winger*

    I have to leave a note commenting on this notion that people actually spend time and energy “nursing a grudge against” or otherwise trying to figure out “whoever was the source of a terrible, long-lasting illness I got last [whenever].”

    That kind of talk is not very productive and it makes this whole obnoxious situation EVEN MORE obnoxious.

  91. IrishEm*

    Personally, I would be LIVID with anyone who passed norovirus on to me, I have an absolute hatred of vomiting. And the last time I had it I contacted the last people I had been around to apologise and explain what was going on. I had to miss a major exam for my MA because of it – fortunately the prof was willing to supervise a make-up test the following week.

    This is a bug that gets hospitals put on Lockdown – nobody but emergencies in or out. I was kicked out while visiting my Mum last week. And I remember it did the rounds in my secondary school (day & boarders) when I was in Transition Year (4th year) and so the school shut down for a full week to prevent the infected boarders from passing it around. It’s still something that a lot of people don’t realise is as serious as it is, clearly, given this worker’s attitude.

    My thought is to have the serious discussion and for there to be a consequence – but not necessarily firing. If there is a disciplinary routine in place at work I would be inclined to invoke it, so that the woman understands how serious this issue is (e.g. if it’s a three-strikes and you’re out type of thing, put her on two strikes for this and watch her closely for strike three).

  92. Life is Good*

    Wow! That same thing happened at old dysfunctional company. A young co-worker brought her son in while she was waiting for the strep-test to be run. She didn’t tell anyone that that was why he was there. His Mom kept encouraging him to “go visit co-worker”. He was whimpering and really looked like he didn’t feel good. The test came back positive and she announced she had to leave early as son had strep. We were incredulous! Even though we wiped everything he touched down, a few came down with it, including me. Management’s solution? Nothing.

  93. Ellen N.*

    If I were the employer of the person who snuck in her child with norovirus I would look carefully at her work. In my experience, people who won’t stay home for any reason even if they have leave and aren’t punished for taking leave are hiding something.

  94. CanCan*

    We don’t know enough about the situation to condemn this woman to the extent of firing her.

    Maybe the kid had hardly any symptoms. I know that for some, norovirus is a nasty horrible thing (my personal experience). But the symptoms can also be very mild (also personal experience – with my kid). Maybe hers always had it very mild, so she didn’t know how bad this stuff can be. Mayber her family never caught if from the kid, so she didn’t know how contagious it was. Maybe her daycare sends kids home unreasonably often, in her experience.
    Maybe the daycare is just across the street and she was planning to take him home but within an hour, but couldn’t manage to leave because of urgent work. Maybe she was on a deadline and could not easily postpone her work to another day. Maybe she has a corner office (as opposed to center cubicle) where she thought the kid could have been kept isolated from others – and maybe he could have listened to her instructions to stay there, were it not for the potluck (which perhaps she didn’t know about). Maybe she only left him in the office alone for 3 minutes to go to the washroom. And she quite possibly didn’t know about the chemotherapy child.

    To all those people mentioning costs of caring for the hospitalized chemotherapy child, – we don’t know if there are costs. She may be living in a country with public health care.

    The fact that she didn’t speak up when others started getting sick doesn’t sound good. Neither does the “no big deal” comment. (But she may genuinely not have known. You don’t google an illness when the symptoms aren’t particularly worrying to you.)

    What was her reaction afterwards? Was she horrified that she caused the office outbreak and illness of two vulnerable persons? Was she profusely apologetic, embarrassed? Or was she standoffish and sticking to her original “no big deal” opinion?

    If as the manager, you’re reasonably sure that this or a similar incident won’t happen with her again, that she’s learned her lesson, and that you can trust her in the future, – it is not necessary to fire her.

    1. Nancy Drew*

      The letter writer provided an update above saying that no, she was not subsequently apologetic (much less horrified, embarrassed, or profusely apologetic).

  95. Employment Lawyer*

    Don’t fire her, but you should not treat this as a minor error.

    1) Make her aware of the consequences to the employer, which is her primary responsibility: You had to pay for sick time and it hurt the business, probably to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars. The fact that she kept it secret made things worse. Generally, folks only get one chance to make expensive judgment errors. She should know that she used up her chance.

    2) Make her aware of the consequences to other employees. Be specific: Folks got sick; folks lost vacation time; folks cancelled plans. She should fully understand why others are upset and why they blame her. If she can’t understand or address it, that is not a good sign.

    3) You need to solve the shunning. Ideally she would apologize; you would back her up; and it would stop. If you plan on treating it like an “one time error,” then manage it as such: you have standing to require an apology, and you have standing to force folks to accept it. You can’t let people in your workplace shun each other, it interferes with business.

    4) If you’re willing to let her be shunned and disempowered, you should consider firing her instead. That’s not a good dynamic to have at work.

    5) When in doubt, this is a decent time to pull out the pointed “what do you think should happen here?” question.

    1. fposte*

      I like this comment–it’s walking through the various ripple effects of the incident very sensibly.

    3. AMG*

      Let’s assume that roughly half of the people in the office are as horrified as I am about this (matching the dynamics on this post). They would not get over this and the shunning would likely continue, especially with the people whose relatives were put at risk. I would probably find a way to interact with her professionally, but I would never trust her judgment, be friendly, help her on anything unless it could be avoided, etc.
      Whether you think she should be fired or you consider the angry reactions to be irrational, she has almost certainly burned a LOT of bridges that will never be rebuilt. That won’t go away. And that’s not counting the people who may try to sabotage her. I am not advocating for that, but it would not surprise me (or anyone else who reads AAM regularly) if that happened.

    5. AnonAcademic*

      I think this is my favorite response. Emotionally my gut response is “fire her,” but I also know that when staff see someone get fired for an honest error (even a big one), it makes them nervous that their own accidental error will be treated similarly. Even negligence at this scale is probably not the result of malice on the woman’s part. That said, if she is not held responsible in some way that will lead to issues with staff morale also and so I like your plan.

    6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      This is by far my favorite response, along with the downthread note about DV. Thank you for sharing it with us.

  96. Crazy Canuck*

    I usually agree with Alison. Not this time, not even a little bit. I’m on the opposite side and if she was my employee, I’d fire her. Her failure to speak up when others started getting sick is where she crossed the line.

    If she was my co-worker, and management didn’t fire her for her reckless endangerment of the entire office, I’d actually quit over it. I couldn’t work with her, and I could no longer trust management if they failed that hard.

    Some mistakes demand permanent shunning. If that co-worker punched an employee in the face, no one would be surprised of that co-worker got fired, as punching your co-workers is a big no-no. This is far worse. I’d rather get punched in the face than get norovirus again by a huge margin.

    1. Adam V*

      If I’m the person whose kid is immuno-compromised, and the office responded to this incident by making it clear that you can’t come to work if you (or anyone in your household) are sick with a highly infectious disease, then I’d be more willing to stay because I’d feel like this experience woke everyone up to the consequences of *not* having this policy (or being lax about it), and I wouldn’t know if future employers would take it as seriously if they hadn’t been through it.

  97. Lady Blerd*

    Coming in late on this topic to say that had she been my employee, I would have a conversation about why she brought her child to work before she’d said it was no big deal. After hearing her say that, it would be a one way conversation about public health and an office wide reminder people to stay home if they truly are sick if the leave policy is accomodating and I wouldn’t care if she’d feel targetted.

    I once got the regular flu during the swine flu hysteria but only saw the doc after a week hacking a lung out and was surprised that he sent me home for a week and learned that day not to wait so long before seeing a doctor. I also caught a stomach flu that once went around our office, literally I’d have my colleagues fall ill one after the other, thanfully I got a mild version by the time it got to me.

  98. Lynne879*

    “One of my direct reports has a child who is undergoing chemotherapy and who had to be hospitalized when she got sick. Another gave it to his grandmother, who resides in a retirement home.”

    That is reason enough alone to seriously consider firing her.

    The mother’s extremely poor decision in bringing her sick child to work (Why would you do this when you have tons of sick leave to use & there’s no penalty to use it? And if it’s not cool to have your kid at daycare, don’t take him outside the house period!) not only resulted in numerous coworkers in the office being seriously ill, it affected FAMILY MEMBERS of the coworkers as well.

    I honestly don’t see how it’s possible for the coworkers who were sick to continue working with the mother. Even if they aren’t mean to her outright, there’s always going to be that underlying resentment.

    2. Searching*

      This is certainly a thread that will go down in history as being very … uh … memorable. Wow indeed.

    3. Jaguar*

      I came to the site and saw 1.2k posts and thought, “What on Earth could have caused this post to blow up?”

    4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Reading the comment thread gave me a thousand-yard stare. I have rarely seen the commentariat folks be so absolute in their positions. It’s really interesting/different from our usual discussions.

  100. VermiciousKnit*

    While I don’t think she should be fired, as a severe emetophobe (fear of vomiting/being near vomiting), I would be unspeakable angry with that employee and have a hard time being anything but just barely civil, especially if both she and my office didn’t show any decisive response that what she did was wrong.

    At minimum she needs to issue an apology of some sort, and most definitely there needs to be a policy with maybe a mandatory lunch and learn or something about the spread of illnesses and how important it is to stay home when you’re sick. Even if it’s just the sniffles for you, it could be life or death for someone else who catches it. The office most definitely needs to issue some kind of response that reaches everyone who got sick and took it home to their families.

    1. fposte*

      But your emetophobia doesn’t make what she’s doing worse. You’re going to face that if somebody’s got bad morning sickness in the office, too.

      1. CasperLives*

        Someone with bad morning sickness isn’t giving her an illness forcing her to vomit, which is likely worsened by her phobia.

        1. fposte*

          But so is being near somebody with morning sickness, so I’m not seeing this as a moral line to be drawn.

          1. Casper Lives*

            I didn’t interpret Vermicious as drawing a “moral line.” She said she would be unspeakably angry because the mother exposed her to something that triggered her phobia. That’s perfectly reasonable to me. I pointed out how that wasn’t similar to morning sickness at all. With morning sickness, Vermicious would still have the phobia, but would have no reason to be unspeakably angry because the vomiting mother is not forcing her to vomit, herself. I don’t see what point you’re trying to make here. It’s not a moral issue to be angry at someone who carelessly did something that triggers a phobic reaction.

            1. fposte*

              But somebody having morning sickness at work would also be exposing her to something that triggered her phobia. If this phobia would prevent the wonderfully named Vermicious Knit from being civil to people who trigger it, that’s not a problem with the other person.

              1. Casper Lives*

                I think we’re addressing different things, but the conversation isn’t going anywhere. I’m going to pull back.

              2. Perse's Mom*

                As someone who’s not phobic but haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaates throwing up, there’s a world of difference between being exposed to someone else doing it occasionally where I can hear them, and actually being the one doing the barfing. That’s Casper’s point.

  101. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    This letter is timely- my city is actually debating today over paid sick and safe time for all workers! I really hope it passes. I don’t have that time and won’t unless this does pass.

    Result: For two days, I worked with an untreated, extremely painful wrist problem from falling on the ice. I was at a 6 on the pain scale, and was crying at my desk a bit. My wife was already out of her work, on disability, so we needed me to work all my hours just to survive. I felt really mad at my wife for being able to be off for her own issue, which was mental, so at least she technically could work without screaming.

    But then I realized the real problem is the systemic overall lack of any paid sick time. If I had gotten norovirus rather than an injury, I don’t know how we would have got through the month, and at that time I probably would have gotten back to work as soon as I stopped spewing.

      1. Relly*

        I get that. I tend to be very conservative on the pain scale. If I am in agony but I can still effectively communicate to someone that I am in pain, that’s six, maybe seven, max. Ten I save for “kill me kill me kill me I am literally on fire” and incoherent screaming.

        (I used ten once, when I tore a ligament in my back. I had no. Idea. I could be in that much pain.)

  102. RVA Cat*

    Is anyone else here wondering if the co-worker talked to her child’s pediatrician? Because if she did, she has no excuse to not know how contagious norovirus is, and if she didn’t….well I’m not one to judge most other parents but that does earn some side-eye.

    That said, I think the company needs to look at this from a risk/safety perspective and address it accordingly. I’m surprised someone hasn’t sued over this (yet). Get some numbers around the lost productivity from the outbreak, and also the insurance costs as well as look at reimbursing the hospital and nursing home costs.

  103. Adam V*

    > Is anyone else here wondering if the co-worker talked to her child’s pediatrician?

    Our pediatrician is out of the office all this week. Last night my wife decided she wanted to take our son in today, so she ended up making an appointment with one of the other doctors in the practice.

    If we assume the coworker didn’t think her child’s illness was a big deal, and she called and was told by the receptionist “your doctor’s out of town all week”, I could see her thinking “oh well, I’ll make an appointment next week when the doctor is back, if he’s still feeling ill then”.

  104. Punkin*

    I worked in a LV casino in the 80s. Two brothers worked in the coin room (collects coin from machines, counts & wraps coins, distributes back to change attendants & cashiers) and came to work sick (we had awesome benefits – sick time & insurance) for a week instead of going to the doctor.

    They finally were ordered to go to the doctor (they both insisted that they were fine) – turns out both had a bad virus – put everyone who touched a coin or breathed near them at risk.

    They were both fired.

    1. Lady Phoenix*

      Considering that casinos attract a large, elderly aduience, I don’t blame the Casino for this discision.

      Also goes to show that money is absolutely FILTHY.

  105. JHS*

    I’m inclined to think that the nature of the work in that office should have an impact on how we perceive this employee’s lack of judgment. Namely, if this office works in an area even remotely related to healthcare, then she should have had access to the information, and I would consider her grossly and intentionally negligent. If not, then she’s irresponsible, but it isn’t quite as bad. I’d be far less annoyed at a colleague in a law office doing this than I would be at a colleague in, say, an admin office in a local health authority.

    It’s bad either way, but if knowing something like this is part of her work, then I’d be seriously worried, and then I’d consider firing her as an option. If not, then a serious talking to would be my preferred option.

  106. Not Having This*

    Count me in the camp of saying she absolutely needs to be fired. For me, it’s that she didn’t speak up when people started getting sick. That right there takes it from something deserving of a written warning and some serious concern about future behavior, to something you just can’t show any level of tolerance for. If people are getting sick, and you have information, you share it. Immediately. Any failure to do so needs to be met by removing that individual for good.

  107. Thatgirlwiththeglasses*

    Long time lurker, first time commenter, this one brought me out of the woodwork.

    For the life of me I have no idea why this woman didn’t just grab her computer and work files and hustle the kid out the door (if stopping by the office was necessary at all).

    However, after the entire situation blew up, everyone got sick, and the Health Department got involved, I’ll admit that i don’t think I’d handle the situation much better. Being held publicly accountable for that sort of fall out would terrify me and trigger all sorts of stage fright. Personally I’ve never been one to be called out or handle the “who did this” in front of the class. I always preferred to confess privately.

    A serious conversation would help determine whether she’s genuinely sorry and simply shocked/scared of the outcome and had no idea where to begin fixing the issue or if she still wants to make excuses behind closed doors.

    Of course there are other issues: taking the kid into work at all against policy, let alone a sick child and choosing to STAY for hours, NOT using available sick leave.

    However before jumping to a firing that talk behind closed doors should happen. Firing may indeed be the best option here, but I dont think I’m alone in the “too scared to speak up” if I messed up like that.

    1. Searching*

      I totally agree with you that a kind of emotional “freezing up,” could have been what happened here, whether out of fear or embarrassment, or whatever. Definitely should be addressed during the discussion, of course, but I think jumping to a firing is very premature without having a discussion first.

    2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Totally agreed—thanks for adding this texture to the conversation. (and welcome!)

    3. kb*

      This is what I was thinking too. I could totally understand a person freezing up when health authorities come to speak with you. I’m also not sure if the context was clarified, but if the employee said “I didn’t think it was a big deal” as an answer to public health officials asking why she had brought the kid in, that says to me that she didn’t understand how severe and contagious norovirus can be, not that she thinks this whole debacle is a non-issue. I think it’s worth talking the situation through with her, because as you said, she’s possibly shocked/scared and doesn’t even know how to go about righting this wrong.

    4. Emi.*

      This is a good point! And if she was too scared to speak up, firing will only cement that reaction.

  108. Mela*

    Alison, would your answer be different if the child going through chemo ended up dying? What if their parent’s work role worked closely with the woman in question and declared they wouldn’t be able to do so anymore? How would you balance that as the manager if you weren’t going to fire her?

    1. Stellaaaaa*

      It’s a tough hypothetical, especially in the American at-will landscape; any office I’ve worked in would have let her go already. It’s just a bad look to keep her around. On the other hand, I don’t think it’s entirely fair to filter all decisions, even bad ones, through the need to account for every single fringe possibility. Realistically, everyone who lives with that child is the bigger risk, especially if there are siblings who are in school or daycare. On the other other hand, the family of the sick child could conceivably pursue legal action on their own. Just because this started at work doesn’t mean that it’s the employer’s responsibility to manage every conclusion that this situation ends up reaching.

  109. katamia*

    I don’t think she should be automatically fired for this, but if I were in the OP’s shoes I wouldn’t take firing off the table necessarily depending on how things pan out over time.

    I wonder how collaborative their work is–do people occasionally need to ask her for some paperwork, or does she need to work closely with the people who got sick/whose family members got sick? If it’s the latter, she might be out of luck at this company even if she isn’t fired. I’d be very angry about it, and, while I wouldn’t go out of my way to sabotage her work or make it more difficult, I can’t imagine myself wanting a relationship with her without some major contrition on her part (and even that might not be enough).

    I’ll be eagerly awaiting an update to this one.

  110. Kats*

    One thing I haven’t seen in the comments so far relates to insurance. Most workplaces would not be insured to have children on the premises (especially if you’re not open to the public) so bringing in a child (sick or not) created a potentially significant liability for the company if anything happened to the child.
    I had an employee who wanted to do work OT on a weekend. Fine. She had no child care arrangements and asked if she could bring her 4 yr old with her. Not ok but I didn’t know exactly why and wanted some sort of policy to defend my response so I followed up with my boss who explained 1) how much work is she really doing if she has to watch her kid 2) her kid may disturb others who were working that weekend thereby impacting their productivity too and 3) from an insurance standpoint it’s a no because we’re a workplace not a child care and we’re the kind of workplace not open to the public who could conceivably walk in with kids.
    What’s interesting to me is that even though we didn’t have a formal policy, my employer had enough common sense to realize she better run this by her boss (me) before assuming it’s ok.
    So I don’t know that firing is the step I’d jump to right away, but definitely a formal and written reprimand for the severe lack of judgement; which cost the company thousands of dollars in lost time; which I’d be concerned would show up somewhere else on the job.

    1. Kats*

      *correction “my employee had enough common sense….”

      Also just by using my own common sense I had figured out issues 1 and 2. But wanted to run it by my boss to make sure I was in the right and also get help with how to phrase my response.

      The fact the employee made efforts to hide her kid signals she knew it wouldn’t be ok and rather than ask and make sure, she chose to act in a way that was best for her. Which suggests the next time she is afraid the response may not be to her favour, she is likely to lie and cover her tracks because she’s demonstrated that.

    2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I just want to clarify that, assuming your workplace is more “office like” than warehouse or manufacturing-like, premises liability will usually cover anyone on your premises, including children. This is true even if the office isn’t open to the public. What’s more likely is that your boss doesn’t want to have to worry or deal with an increased premium in the event that a child does get hurt on site, not that the insurance itself wouldn’t cover the kid.

  111. Bosco*

    I am a senior manager working in a very large city government. The first thing that came to mind when I read this entire thread was “domestic violence”, as in perhaps there is a reason she doesn’t take sick days and doesn’t want to stay at home and keep her child at home.

    In my office, HR would have a confidential conversation with this woman to attempt to suss out if there are extenuating circumstances such as a violent partner. If that’s the case, there are a host of things that we can do and NOT do: HR personnel as well as senior managers receive training in this area.

    BTW, retaliation against DV survivors is illegal in my state. Allowing “shunning” or any other behavior that can be seen as retaliatory is potentially actionable.

    Not saying this is the case, but this is why situations like this are best handled by HR (where possible) and why the “fire her on the spot” crowd is wrong. Desperate people sometimes do irrational things without meaning to harm others.

    You would not believe how many times in my managerial career I have seen seemingly stupid, self-destructive or reckless behavior as a result of domestic violence.

      1. AMG*

        I thought we weren’t reading into things that aren’t in the letter. Huh. I must have misread that upthread.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          He’s not saying that’s what’s happening. He’s saying it’s something a manager should consider when someone behaves oddly.

          Please don’t be snarky to others here.

    2. katamia*

      (I’m tired and might wind up wording something wrong, so I just want to preface this by saying I’m not trying to argue with you, I’m just trying to imagine what this would look like and am drawing a total blank) How would you address or manage the negative reactions to the consequences of her actions, especially if she didn’t want her DV situation to become public knowledge (if there is DV in this situation)? I’m not in the “fire her on the spot” crowd, but if she were my coworker, I’d be very angry and wouldn’t want to have a boss tell me that I basically have to socialize with someone I wouldn’t want to. So what would you do to prevent retaliation and also recognize the feelings of her coworkers?

    3. Anon for this*

      No, no. I absolutely disagree with this. She DOES NOT get a get out of jail free card, EVEN IF it’s a domestic violence situation. I’m a survivor of domestic violence. Before she was able to leave him in a messy and painful process, my mother did stupid, self-destructive and reckless behavior as a result of domestic violence. E.g., drinking and driving. I love my mother and think she is amazing. However, if she had hit someone while drinking and driving or the other irrational things she did during that time period, she would not have and should not have faced no consequences simply because the dangerous, reckless behavior was a result of domestic violence.

      Asking her coworker with the hospitalized, cancer-stricken coworker not to shun her, even if her behavior is a result of DV, is ridiculous. Her lack of intent to harm others doesn’t mean she faces no consequences. I also don’t advocate firing her on the spot in any case, but a serious conversation with an official warning, scrutinizing her work, and maybe other consequences like unpaid leave? Absolutely.

      Tl;dr: Even if domestic violence is involved, this woman should face serious consequences for her actions. Social fallout for wreaking such havoc and costing people a lot of money as they burn through their benefits (what if they didn’t have ample sick time built up, like this woman does?) is fine even if there’s DV at work. It’s not fellow employees’ jobs to empathize with the enabler of patient zero.

    4. The Letter Writer*

      Thank you for highlighting this. It is an important thing.

      I will state that in the case of my employee, she isn’t living with a romantic partner (unless one moved in sometime in the last month). However you highlighted an important issue that should be kept in mind.

  112. Lady Phoenix*

    Upon realizing that she REFUSED to speak up when the entire department got sick, I am leaning towards her being fired. She made an egregious error that did the following:
    1) Leave one department entirely understaffed (and possibly halted other departments
    2) Forced the company to pay tons of sick leave
    3) Endangered the lives of people with weaker immune systems, in office and related
    4) possibly for ed cowrokers and families to pay a lot of insurance for their infected loved o es (especially for cheme kid and the elder).

    And worse of all? Her error could have been solved with common sense: take the kid home WITHOUT being told, don’t let the kid run around and touch everything, take the sick days, etc. She threw out all common sense, and it probably cost the business a LOT of money.

    And honestly, firing her might be an act of mercy. This woman burned a LOT of bridges, and I doubt some will ever be repaired. You are better off either firing her, her laying her off when the time comes. That way, you stop the company from possibly burning a bridge with everyone else.

    Eithrr way, this lady needs to be reprimended for her complete irresponsibility. Whether it is firing or a write up, it is up to you.

  113. Green Tea Pot*

    At age 53, I caught a terrible cold that destroyed a portion of my hearing – all because a younger colleague brought a sick child to work.

    I missed a week of work, spent a bundle on copays, came down with infected Eustachian tubes, and fell behind on an improvement project.

    I have zero tolerance for this

    1. Green Tea Pot*

      That was supposed to be important project.

      When you are sick, you stay home. Same goes for your child. Period.

  115. blackcat*

    While this is pretty terrible, the “fire her” comments do seem a bit over the top.

    I do know of one person who deserved a norovirus-related firing. At my university, someone made the decision to do a big cut in janitorial services at the same time a nearby high school was having a norovirus outbreak. When the outbreak made it to the university, someone made the decision that they would drop off bleach in the dorm bathrooms of the affected students, for the students themselves to clean. An administrator insisted “there is no budget” for overtime for janitors. Those dorm bathrooms were group bathrooms! And why, why did they expect undergrads to do the cleaning?!?!

    Something like ~1/4 of the student body got norovirus over the course of two weeks, along with 1/6 or so of the faculty. This totaled HUNDREDS of people. Over a dozen students and a couple faculty were hospitalized. I have no idea how the university didn’t get sued (or maybe they did, and settled quietly?). I really, really hope that the administrator got fired.

    1. No Name Yet*

      WOW. I can’t imagine ever (or very rarely, I suppose) expecting undergrads living in dorms to do significant bathroom cleaning/disenfecting. But undergrads with noro? I cannot even imagine how horrible that was.

      1. blackcat*

        It was so, so awful.

        I hope some graduate student in our school of public health got a good paper out of it, at least….

  116. Aietra*

    Eurgh, small children in the workplace…but CONTAGIOUS small children… Small children are like little walking petri-dishes of contagion.

    I work as a vet, and I had a client once bring her two small children (aged maybe 5-7) into the consult with her. These two were just as obnoxious as the very worst of small-children-in-consult – messing around with my equipment, pulling pamphlets off the shelves, shrieking that they’re bored and bursting into tears every time I opened my mouth to discuss something about the cat with the mother. In addition, though, they were all snotty, and kept wiping their noses with their hands and GRABBING MY CLOTHES.

    Eventually, my exasperation could no longer be confined to “don’t touch that, please!” and “stay away from the equipment, it might be dangerous”, and I must have given the mother a particularly revolted or frustrated look, as she said “oh, sorry about them – they’ve got the chickenpox, so I couldn’t leave them with a babysitter.”

    Wonderful.

    Being a vet, I didn’t exactly have food at my desk, and I’m well-trained out of putting my hands near my mouth in the workplace, thankfully. I’ve got trigene disinfectant in my cupboard, for the cat flu and kennel cough; I resisted the urge to trigene the small children, but you bet I NUKED that consult room with the stuff after they left, and changed my clothes. Avoided infection, thank goodness, but someone in another sort of workplace might not have been so lucky.

    Sorry if I sound a little bitter about the small-children-in-consult thing – this week, I had a literal birthday party of eight year old boys hyped up on sugar, brought into a consult, so my nerves are shattered! *VETRAGE*

  117. Pub Coordinator*

    I find the number and intensity of the comments sort of fascinating from a sociological/cultural perspective. I’d be pretty furious at this coworker, too–norovirus is no joke–but I think there is something about illness that plays into fears of pollution/contamination that are present in many cultures and go way deeper than the (mostly rational and valid) objections to this individual’s behavior. (See, for instance, this blog post: http://www.eveningallafternoon.com/2011/07/disgust-bibliographyreading-list.html.) I think our culture tends to mix up dirt/germs/illness/moral deficiency, and that sets off visceral reactions in people.

    Living in a city where most people commute via public transportation, I’ve had to accept that I and pretty much everyone I meet is being exposed to gross germs all the time.

  118. MoodyMoody*

    I’ve tried to read all the comments here, but I think I can point out an issue no one else mentioned. The woman who brought her son in has an assistant, at least one direct report. By bringing her sick son to the office when she had plenty of sick leave and hadn’t used any in two years, she is contributing to an office culture of “come in regardless of how sick you are.” Her poor assistant probably doesn’t feel like he/she can ever take a sick day. According to OP, that seems to be against the policy the whole company wants to foster, that sick days are meant to be used when the employee needs to use them.

    The employee and the administration as a whole has a lot of damage control to do here. I agree with an earlier commenter who suggested that the employee make up a plan to try to salvage her job. It’s not quite a PIP, but the effect would be similar in that she should be encouraged to look for another job in case she can’t repair any of the burned bridges.

    1. aa*

      I would have at the very least written her up – not because people got sick (though that is terrible) but because she MADE UP HER OWN RULES bringing a sick child to work, failed to own up to it until she was “caught” and acts like its “no big deal”. What rule will she break next? And what message do you send to the other employees?

  119. Tilly*

    UGH. I can’t stand ignorant people like this employee! The employee should be made to go on hygeine awareness and Health and Safety training.

  120. Knitting Cat Lady*

    Question about the handling of Norovirus on the official side.

    In Germany, Norovirus is a reportable disease. If you have a confirmed diagnosis, the GP has to report the case to the communal health department.

    If the number of cases rises the outbreak is investigated and the source is traced.

    This leads to schools and day cares being closed for a few days a few times a year in the city I live in.

    What’s the official response in the US?

    1. fposte*

      CDC says: “Currently, state, local, and territorial health departments are not required to report individual cases of norovirus illness to a national surveillance system. They may not know about such cases because most hospitals and doctor’s offices do not have capability to test for norovirus. The virus is usually diagnosed only when an outbreak happens.
      Health care providers should report all outbreaks of acute gastroenteritis, including suspected outbreaks of norovirus, to the appropriate state, local or territorial health department.
      Health departments are encouraged to report all suspected and confirmed norovirus outbreaks through the National Outbreak Reporting System (NORS) and CaliciNet.”

      States may also have individual requirements.

  121. Jen Erik*

    Just by chance, I came across an article in the Guardian, about which films their reviewers had walked out on. One of them talks about being too ill to watch “This is 40″. I thought it was interesting, in terms of this discussion – as to the mindset of someone going into work with this sort of condition. (It could, of course, be that the reviewer knew their disease wasn’t contagious, but they joke about ” potentially giving” Paul Rudd the condition.)

    “This smug survival sentiment also affects my attitude towards illness, having only taken a half-day off work sick in my entire working life. It was when I worked at a male lifestyle magazine and after I’d just returned from a visit to Zambia where I had picked up some sort of gastro-intestinal disease.”

    ” I routinely emptied out every orifice, while weeping, into the nearest bathroom.”

    “But despite still feeling like I could conceivably die at any moment, I dragged myself to a fancy London hotel to speak to the cast. A terrifying wait for my name to be called then followed, as I questioned which end of my body would betray me first and I pretended to Paul Rudd that I was feeling great … “

  122. Recruit-o-Rama*

    I am struck by the almost violent glee that the “grab your pitchforks!” Attitude seemed to take on as the comment thread grew. It wasn’t just, “she should be terminated for making a bad decision and breaking company policies”. It was “fire her low life ass, hit her where it hurts, she must be punished!! And SUED! And, and, and…”

    I wonder if these kinds of group think over reactions contributed to this woman’s reaction; withdrawing and self protection.

    The more I read, the more I was drawn to defend her, and I am just so sad to see this kind of anger and vitriol from people who were not personally harmed. You would think we could come at it with a little more circumspection.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Totally agree. It’s one thing to say, in a reasoned, measured way, that this is serious enough to fire her over. But the anger and glee with which people have gone after her is unsettling.

      1. Thatgirlwiththeglasses*

        Honestly I love reading the comments on AAM. I actually get a lot of great advice from the comments. I like this crowd way more than any other blog community and AAM helped me get my current job.

        However THIS thread went off the deep end. It’s taking a nose dive into YouTube comment territory. It’s also the first thread I’ve spoken up about, mostly to add in some measured counterpoints….what does that say about me lols.

      2. Thatgirlwiththeglasses*

        Alison, I may be out of line as this is your blog, but it might be time to think about disabling the comments on this thread. The rhetoric seems to be going so far outside your normal rules engagement (“Im sorry I know this is your job but you suck at it right now”? …yikes!!) and the comments are at nearly 1,500.

        I don’t think it would be unreasonable to consider at this point.

    3. MathOwl*

      This struck me as well. Usually reading the comments is interesting, because people discuss things calmly even when they disagree. This time however it seems people showed strong emotion, even hostility, about the woman’s actions and it makes for a disturbing read.

      I also do think she may have withdrawn by sensing major alienation. It’s like when someone is visibly furious at you, it’s much more difficult to apologize because you’re afraid you’ll be lashed at. I wish people here considered more things as they are: a woman who showed exceptionally poor judgment, but whose intentions may not be bad and can’t be read from the facts that were presented in this letter.

    4. FDCA In Canada*

      I’m thoroughly weirded out by the absolute vitriol here–the rage and discussions of lawsuits and fraud and monetary punishment and all that. Wow. Truly. Combined with a healthy dose of “EVERYONE knows this, if you don’t you clearly don’t read the news and aren’t an informed person” plus “all schools and daycares handle everything like this exactly the same and correctly” and what a weird perfect storm of comments. This is very unsettling.

    5. animaniactoo*

      It was very punitive. I started to stick my oar in at one point, but I didn’t express myself as well as I would have liked about not assigning her to the human garbage dumpster.

      I suspect that a lot of this is driven by current political climate and uncertainty and frustration and it’s reflecting here in a lack of willingness to consider nuance in the face of things that people feel shouldn’t be nuanced, they should just be dealt with as “obvious”. There’s a lot of push for simple solutions in the political climate right now for “No, we don’t have to debate this, it’s just obviously wrong (and really, it is – blatantly and scarily so) and debating it is a wasted exercise when what we need is action. Immediately. Before it gets any worse!”

      Couple that with a lot of “There! There’s whose to blame for this!” from both sides and it’s a mindset that’s settling in about blame and getting rid of “the culprit”. In a very righteous kind of way that’s also coming from both sides.

      That and people get very very touchy about health issues, particularly virulent and contagious ones.

  123. Mirax*

    Thinking about this, I remembered a woman did come in knowing she had norovirus at the office I worked in last summer.

    The company fired her (because the woman had reported she had norovirus to her boss, been specifically told not to come in to work, and then chose to anyway), cordoned off her office for several days (which I understand cost the business some $$ as she had not backed-up all her files online and no one was allowed to go in to retrieve her papers), and had professional cleaners sanitize every floor she’d been on.

    Thankfully the outbreak was contained (only a handful of people got sick), but the cafeteria was shut down for several days because she’d been up there. It caused so much inconvenience to other people that I think they had no choice about letting her go–she’d burned her bridges so thoroughly that it would be unreasonable to ask people to continue working with her.

  124. MuseumChick*

    Alison, I’m sure you are sick of look at this thread but I have a question that I would be very interested to get a manager’s perspective on.

    As has been stated a few times this letter has reminded some of us of this letter: https://www.askamanager.org/2016/03/my-employee-secretly-brought-her-kids-to-work-and-forced-a-coworker-to-watch-them.html

    IMO, this person bringing norovirus into the office is worse. From a manager’s point-of-view what are the biggest difference between these cases? From my perspective you have two woman how made a series of bad choices that lead to serious consequences for others and co-workers no longer trusting them. The level of understanding in both cases is in question (did Mary know her aunt had threaten the admin assistant? Did this person know how dangerous norovirus can be?) In May’s case you stated that you were shocked she hadn’t been fired and that it was probably kinder to fire. What do you see differently in this letter? I’m really curious since they seem so similar to me.

    1. Thatgirlwiththeglasses*

      Well I think a year of conspiring to break official policy is one major difference.

      Stuffing her kids in a janitors closet…for over a year…is another difference, so a years worth of possibly criminal negligence. There was an established pattern of breaking policy by bringing her kids to work, fudging her time sheets, exploiting a subordinate, and having family threaten said subordinate. It’s not in the same realm.

      I don’t think the cases are comparable. As far as we know the woman in this case royally screwed up ONCE and it happened to have major consequences. If the child simply had a cold I don’t think the torch and pitchfork crowd wouldn’t be so …vehement.

      If a screw up of mine had that kind of far reaching consequences…and people wanted my head…I don’t think I’d jump up and say it was me right away either. I’d totally freeze up.And before this thread I knew virtually nothing about norovirus.

      We really don’t know enough to establish her thought process during this one particularly severe episode. I’d be shocked if anyone repeated this sort of mistake after fall out of this magnitude.

  125. Clover Neiberg*

    I can’t imagine there’s much new to say here, but having followed the comments section intermittently throughout my workday yesterday, I’m going to have a go anyway.

    I am not a lawyer, but I spent a year attending law school and it profoundly affected the way I think about questions and problems, and in my mind there are two central questions in this scenario: was the damage done foreseeable to a reasonable person? And how can those harmed be made whole?

    In my experience, a reasonable person takes precautions not to spread sickness, especially an unpleasant stomach bug. Not taking these precautions generally leads to pretty predictable outcomes: other people catch the unpleasant stomach bug and aren’t happy about it. Bringing your sick kid to work isn’t particularly considerate, nor is coming to work sick yourself. When faced with certain consequences (losing the job, being disciplined, not having enough PTO left for other unforeseen events, etc.), a reasonable person might decide to be inconsiderate and come to work anyway, but none of those consequences seems to be in play here. Whether this woman was raised in an “if you can walk, you can go to school/work” household or whether she’s somehow become convinced that she cannot miss work, the objective reality is that she could have taken her sick kid home without any consequences.

    A reasonable person would’ve attempted to contain the kid, but kids are wily buggers, and cake is delicious, and anyone who has ever attempted to contain a kid can see how the whole potluck fiasco ensued.

    A reasonable person, having made one inconsiderate decision (for reasons clear only to her) that had a lot of unintended consequences, would have remorse and want to make amends. That, to me, is where this lady crossed the line from inconsiderate to unreasonable.

    As far as the making amends part, here are my thoughts about what that might look like for the woman described in this letter.

    –Email the parent of the child who was hospitalized. Apologize profusely. Tell him/her that if he/she is comfortable with it and if it’s convenient, you and your child (the Potluck Germ Menace) would like to apologize in person (after scrubbing in appropriately). Look that kid in the eye and tell him/her that you feel absolutely horrible that your lack of thought and consideration landed him/her in the hospital, and that you’ve learned an important lesson about not coming to work sick or contagious. Bring him/her a book or toy or something suitable for a kid of that age. If he/she has feedback, listen without flinching and continue to apologize as abjectly as necessary.
    –Visit the old folks’ home and apologize profusely. Assure them that you’ve learned your lesson about communicable diseases and will be more conscientious going forward about staying home when you or a family member is contagious, rather than bringing your illness to work where (as you now realize) it might spread.
    –Walk up to each colleague who got sick and apologize to him/her individually. Even those who won’t look you in the eye or acknowledge your presence. Write a script first, if you have to: “I know I might be the last person you want to see right now, and I can understand why you’d feel that way. The crud that Potluck Germ Menace and I brought into the office was sheer misery. I am so sorry you and other people, including some really vulnerable people, got sick. From now on, I will err on the side of staying home when I’m sick, and I will not bring my sick kid to the office.” No mass emails, but individual in-person apologies.
    –If you are financially able, talk to the parent of the child who was hospitalized and offer to cover the costs their family incurred that weren’t covered by insurance. If the amount is too big for you to cover in a lump sum, offer to set up a payment plan. If your offer is accepted, honor it.
    –Buy a bunch of individual-sized bottles of hand sanitizer. Put them in a basket and leave it in the break room with a card apologizing for being a vector of disease and reassuring your colleagues that it won’t happen again.

    You cannot make them whole; you cannot give them back the days they spent sick in bed. You can, though, do some work toward making the relationship whole by acknowledging your lack of consideration, expressing sincere remorse, and reassuring them it won’t ever happen again.

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