open thread – February 10-11, 2017

by Alison Green on February 10, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. Mimolette*

    A bit frustrated at my job this week. I work at a tiny company and my job (also everyone else’s job) primarily involves reaching out to reporters and sharing information about our clients. The industry standard way to approach this is by curating a relatively small list of reporters for each email blast, ensuring that you are only reaching out to those who would be interested in covering the topic. My manager, however, believes the most effective way to reach out is by sending emails to the same list of almost 3,000 reporters multiple times a week. I have been trying to delicately suggest we try sending outreach to a smaller, more researched group of reporters, but she all but refuses to try that strategy. (I’ll note that she also recognizes that our current strategy is not working, but says “there’s no other strategies to use.”)

    This week, one of my coworkers believed that a bunch of his email distributions were getting sent to spam, so he resent about a week’s worth of emails. He woke up the next morning to a TON of angry reporters from top-tier publications, who sent him things like “You have sent me the same email 10 times, never contact me again,” and “You need to better coordinate your PR strategy, because it is a mess.” When he told this to our boss, she said “It’s so weird how reporters get mad about that, oh well.” Now, a few days later, our company account on an email distribution site has been suspended (possibly permanently) due to sending spam. My manager thinks this is the email distribution site’s fault.

    I’m frustrated because my manager’s inability to address problems and let us try different approaches is impeding for my ability to do my job effectively and deliver for my clients.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I’m sorry! I have to reach out to reports/clients, to and my boss does similar things – expects me to add people to my list that never agreed to be added, then they get upset for being added….

      Why can’t your manager recognize this? She recognizes it is not working, but is unwilling to try something else. I feel your pain.

    4. Poster Child*

      Your company could be breaking the CAN-SPAM law. You have to allow unsubscribing or opting out for one thing.

      1. Mimolette*

        I’ve actually looked into this before, and I don’t believe we are because our emails have an unsubscribe button at the bottom. However, when I mentioned to my boss that I delete from the list any reporters who ask to be removed, she told me to only delete them if they’re not from an “important” publication. I do NOT follow that advice, but anyone who does might be in violation.

        1. Jessesgirl72*

          Not might be. Are in violation. The law doesn’t change if the publication is a “big” one- anyone who requests to be taken off your mailing list has to be removed.

          Is there anyone you could report her to? An ethics line or something, since she is absolutely putting the company at risk for some hefty fines.

        2. paul*

          There’s no “might be” in that. Yikes. Your boss is actually telling people to break the law. Have they been dumb enough to put it in writing?

        3. H.C.*

          Agree with Jessesgirl72, and here’s a nice blogpost summarizing what CAN-SPAM does and the consequences of violating that law:

          http://www.silverpop.com/blog/CAN-SPAM-and-Other-Global-Email-Laws-and-Regulations

          Of note, you/your org has 10 days from unsubscribe request to honor them and there are no restrictions to who can opt-out, even if it is an “important” media outlet.

          And lastly, the penalty is $16,000, plus $250 for each subsequent email sent ($750 per email if the plaintiff can prove you’re willfully ignoring the opt-out request).

          Hopefully these figures can help your boss / CEO realize the risk they’re setting themselves up for and that they should at least honor the opt-outs and at best, use smaller distribution lists to begin with.

    7. Marcela*

      I’m sorry, your coworker and boss seem like they are not able to see facts. What did your coworker think it was going to happen resending email being marked spam on the recipients’ email? That the email fairy was going to make the emails non spam and relevant? I hate spam with the intensity of thousand suns, so I would probably send a very terse “remove me from your list, spammer!” reply to him, and make sure that all his emails are trapped in my spam folder forever. Precisely the opposite reaction you need, and it is worrisome and frustrating that both of them are unable to see that if reporters complain, you simply have to stop pushing, period.

      1. Mimolette*

        I honestly feel for my coworker here. This is his first PR job and his first job after graduating college. He’s just following our boss’ advice but has definitely questioned the approach before. When he re-sent the emails, he thought he had troubleshot the problem, but it didn’t really work out that way.

    9. animaniactoo*

      “Boss, have you seen the functions that allow people to mark e-mail as spam? Do you use them?”

      “Well, other people do. I think that because our e-mails have been going to so many people who don’t have any interest in them, enough of them have marked them as spam that the e-mail distributor is forced to treat them as spam. We may need to setup a new e-mail address to get around this, but if we don’t stop blasting this to everybody we will just end up back in the same place and they’ll be more likely to mark it as spam because they’re already frustrated with us.”

      And then don’t *delicately* suggest sending to a smaller group. Say, straight up: “I know you’ve said there’s no other strategies to try, but everywhere else I’ve worked, we’ve sent to small curated lists based on who would be most likely to be interested in the information. I really think we should try that in an effort not to end up in the spam folder constantly, because we’re even less effective if our information is going to spam.”

      Also – is there somebody above your manager that you can talk to?

      1. Mimolette*

        I’ve said it straight up like that before, as well as just doing one distribution my own way, and showing how many more email opens/interest we got. She has a litany of concerns, like it wont reach enough people and what if our lists overlap. The only person to go to is the CEO, but I’m not sure how I would be received.

        1. animaniactoo*

          I would say the CEO would be EXTREMELY interested that she’s got you ending up on spam distribution lists and pissing off people at top-tier publications. As in, this is a major issue, do not minimize it – what she’s doing is actively damaging the reputation of the company and any effectiveness it may have.

          1. Mimolette*

            How would you suggest I approach this? I’m new at the company (1.5 months) and I email the CEO frequently but have only met him once and don’t know him well. I don’t want to come off as arrogant and malicious.

            1. animaniactoo*

              Ah, I didn’t realize you are that new. That does make it a lot more problematic – but it also gives you some leverage as the “outside person” who can “see the problem”.

              First, if you haven’t done what I’ve asked below, do that. If that doesn’t work, I would e-mail him to say you’re having an issue with something you’d like to discuss with him that you’ve tried going through your manager about and haven’t had any success, is he available to talk?

              In that meeting, I would simply tell him “I’m not sure you’re aware of the impact of the way we’ve been doing outreach e-mails. I understand Lucinda has concerns about XY & Z, but I think that the focus on those things is backfiring. I’ve tried suggesting some changes to be more in line with industry standards that tend to be more successful, but she doesn’t seem to be willing to try those things. I don’t know if the way we are currently working is your preference, but are you aware of the feedback we’ve been getting?”

            2. Lazy Cat's Mom*

              I’m a journalist with a few very specific beats. But I still get a dozen emails a week from PR people who just blast releases that have nothing to do with my beat.
              Maybe you can point out to your boss that some journalists, like me, are less interested in writing up something that went to every publication. There’s no value in me covering it.
              You could point out to your boss how many people get emails from aggregators such as Google News. Why would I bother covering something when I know a reader will see it five times in an alert?

              1. Bonky*

                I was a freelance journalist until 2011. I haven’t worked in that world for six years now, and I STILL end up on the receiving end of PR agencies’ widecast foghorn of press releases, often nothing to do with the two very niche beats I covered.

                I also mark them as spam.

        2. animaniactoo*

          Also – have you tried addressing the concerns? “Yes, it’s true that there might be a few people it will miss with the targeted reporting, however the big picture is that it misses a lot more people when they dismiss it as spam or ignore it. So as far as effective reach goes, it’s better to miss a few people people while actually gaining interaction with more people.” “Lists may overlap, but if we set the system up correctly, it will only send the e-mail to people once even if they’re on two or three different lists”.

        3. Observer*

          Go to the CEO. And if you don’t get a reasonable reception, polish your resume and start looking for a new job. This manager is NOT going to be able to perform for the clients, which jeopardizes your position. And, in the meantime, this nonsense tarnishes your reputation.

          Can you also just do YOUR mailings your way without discussing this with your manager?

    10. reporterlady*

      Hi. I’m a journalist at one of those top-tier publications, and i get a few dozen of these emails a week. OH MY GOD STOP.

      Ok, that’s out my system. But really, I ignore 99.99999% of these. I have a broad beat, and my name’s in some databases as covering something because it’s tangentially related to something I wrote about a year ago. Spamming reporters just pisses them off, they’ll never write about it if they think you’re sending the same information to your competitors, and every bad pitch makes the good ones have to work that much harder.

      I only wish all PR people were as smart about it as you, but unfortunately, the bulk seem to be closer aligned with your manager. It’s made me hate the entire industry.

      1. Hmmmmmm*

        Same here! I make it a point to ignore the releases from the people who send it to me 8 times and then call 4 more times as a follow-up.

        Sorry that this is happening! There are many PR firms though, so many you can switch? Best of luck

      2. Artemesia*

        Exactly. Reporters open targeted Email from people they know. Your boss has well and truly poisoned this well. None of this stuff is going to make it into print.

        1. Artemesia*

          Do you have a close personal relationship with any of these reporters? Is there someone who would actually email your CEO and boss complaining about the spam without mentioning you?

          1. Mimolette*

            Unfortunately, no. I have mentioned the poisoning of the well, and I said a few weeks ago if we continue like this we would eventually have to scrap our list all together. No one seems willing to listen.

      3. Mimolette*

        I’m honestly really sorry. I’ve seen first hand how little respect a lot of PR folks have for reporters and their busy schedules. :(

    11. Anna*

      This is so frustrating and I’m sorry you have to deal with it. Your boss is unreasonable, if only because she believes here is literally no other way to do this. I’m pretty sure entire textbooks have been written to describe other strategies to use that don’t make you come off as completely out of touch.

      Could you frame it as a “new and innovative way to market (TM)” and see if she’ll let you “try it out?”

    12. a girl has no name*

      I know your pain. I work in PR as well and our director thought this was the way to go. She still values quantity over quality. Smh But, I get better results when I take the time to strategically pitch. That has given me some leverage. Something that has worked well for me is looking up the journalist on Twitter. My distribution site can’t keep up with reporters when they switch beats or even outlets. Generally Twitter has their most recent work. The only thing that seemed to help was getting the results we weren’t getting before. Good luck! I can imagine how difficult this will be going forward when you have some very angry journalists. If it makes you feel better, you are most certainly correct in your view of all this.

    13. Bomb Yogi*

      You have my sympathies. I used to work in PR and would have to send out press releases a lot. Luckily, my boss never wanted me to send them out to reporters and writers who weren’t in some way connected to the subject matter. She would ask me to call and badger certain reporters to “make sure they got the release.” Reporters just looove this (big eye roll).

      On the flip side, I work as a freelance writer and get TONS of press releases weekly about stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with what I write about (a very niche sport). It’s annoying but I just delete them – I never reach out the PR rep and yell at them.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. If people are yelling at you, you have gone far beyond the usual boundaries of harassment of reporters.

    14. Bend & Snap*

      Is this actually PR, or something else? Because the email blast is the quickest way to kill media relationships. Personalized emails are typically the way to go.

      1. H.C.*

        It depends on the industry. There are quite a few fields where blasts of an official release is the norm (statement from public official or releasing financial reports, for example.)

        1. H.C.*

          That being said, even those blasts should be curated to journalists on that beat (or if you really need to go wide, use a wire service).

    15. BizzieLizzie*

      Sorry to hear about this, very annoying indeed.
      I have many years experience in the Marketing Technology & have dealt with many clients trying to solve problems like this -i.e. how to I get a better response rate to my email marketing (through technology)… but really a lot of the best practice principles apply irrespective of how fancy or otherwise your technology is. (Good email design, good subject line, TARGETING THOSE MOST LIKELY TO RESPOND ;) and so on.

      The name of the game is surely ‘how many responses/opens/click through’ and so on we get? Not – how many people can we blast!
      If people only knew how few emails actually even make it to a recipients inbox, never mind how many are opened:) Really surprised that people still think it’s like the lottery, the more numbers the more chances.

      Can you influence your boss with facts about response rates based on different approaches. (His way – is so odd that if I quote to one of my customers they would think I was patronising them, up, vs the more sensible way you are suggesting).

    16. CM*

      Get a new job!

      Alternatively, is it possible to just quietly try your strategy on your own, without asking permission? If you get results, you can show them to your boss and say, “Here’s the approach I used, here’s how well it worked. We should all do this.”

    17. Arielle*

      Ugh, this is so frustrating. Not only will you fail in delivering results for your clients, you’ll lose out on cultivating relationships with your media contacts. Your professional reputation will follow you even if/when you leave your current place of employment. Could you talk to your manager’s manager about alternate media relations strategies? Or the heads of your clients’ accounts?

    18. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      Former reporter here. Spam laws aside, this is how to guarantee that nobody gives you coverage. Ugh. I’m sorry you work for such frustrating idiots…

    19. Letters*

      Is it possible during the course of your job to bring IN a reporter who you do have a good relationship with to talk to your boss? Maybe coached beforehand, so that it doesn’t seem like THIS is the actual purpose of the visit, but have them mention it directly, and say something along the lines of the things the reporters in this thread have said — that they delete almost all of these emails, and remember the people that send the unrelated ones, or mark that type of person for their spam folder?

      I’ve learned through many years of customer service that managers who don’t listen to ME often listen to clients or customers.

    20. em2mb*

      I’m on the other side of those email blasts (I’m a reporter), and you’re totally right. Even if I’m not going to follow up, I don’t mind PR folks pitching a story idea if it’s related to my beat or the general geographic area where my station is located. But I ask to be taken off of other distribution lists for a reason. It drives me batty when people don’t respect that!

      Though in the future, I’ll try to keep in mind that it might not be the poor individual PR person’s fault.

    21. Audiophile*

      While this wasn’t a primary part of my job, I’ve been in your position before. At an old job, part of my job was writing press releases, they had old lists of PR and journalist contacts, they’d made no effort to nurture these contacts. I knew that when I sent out a mass email about our event or re-branding that it would’t be picked up, because I got a bunch of auto replies about people leaving companies, etc. I explained this to my boss, who just shrugged, nothing changed. Since this wasn’t a regular part of my job, I didn’t push it any further than that.

      You and your coworker definitely need to start honoring people’s requests to be removed from your list of contacts. I think anyone can understand their frustration at being contacted multiple times about the same thing.

  2. Bad at This*

    I’ve been thinking of going back to grad school again. Sorry if this is a stupid question, but does anyone have any advice on how to approach my old professors? I’ve always really struggled with this.

    I’d be going for a Master’s in a different degree than my undergrad. It’s been almost 5 years since my graduation, and, well, I haven’t kept in touch with any of my old professors…and also don’t feel I’ve accomplished much since then to report. I was in touch with them once about a year after I graduated, asking them for job references. But I had some medical and family crises going on, and that particular job search ended up not working out. I had to take some more time just doing freelance work before getting back on my feet again, so I just… never followed up with them.

    I know that’s really bad, but I didn’t know what to do because I didn’t feel I had anything to follow up with. Since then, I’ve worked my way up from several “real” full time jobs to a field I’m now passionate about. The Master’s I want to pursue will enable me to do higher level work in this field.

    My professors loved me when I had them. But is it even appropriate anymore to go back and ask them for references when I’ve been rudely out of touch for so long? I’ll probably need to take a couple prerequisites for this Master’s; should I just try to get references from those courses (though I’m assuming those won’t be as strong)?

    1. KL*

      I’d talk to your intended master’s program first. I just applied to join an MPA after being our of school for about 4 years. When I asked my program, they said they liked having a former professor write a letter, but 100% understood if I couldn’t get that because I’ve been out of school for so long.

      1. Artemesia*

        Assume they have no memory of you. Maybe your name evokes a slight positive sense but I doubt they remember much else or that you didn’t follow up on job recs unless you were really rude about it. Assume they have no memory of you.

        So you write telling them you are a former student and are planning to head to grad school. Tell them what inspired you about their classes and remind them of particular work you did. Perhaps you wrote a very well received paper on turtle evolution or headed a class team project designing a marketing plan for an organization or did a well received oral report on the Italian judiciary. If you can be enthusiastic about the class and remind them of specific things you did it will either kindle a memory or provide one.

        Let them know what you have been doing; if nothing you want to talk about, you can say after working for 5 years you want to redirect your career and get a masters in X and request they write an academic reference for you. In that paragraph indicate the course you took with them and your grade, and your GPA if it is very good. All this gives them a little bit to work with and makes writing a letter easier on them. If you have done volunteer or hobby work in your new field or any work in the new field, note that and how it makes you want to pursue it in the future.

        1. Rob Lowe can't read*

          This is exactly what I did when I applied to grad school in a new field, four years out of undergrad. I was lucky enough to only have two required letters of recommendation for the programs I applied to (professional program, related to the field I was by then already working in), which seemed way less daunting. I provided information about why I was going back, about what I’d done since graduation, and writing samples from both the classes I had with those professors as well as some more recent writing I’d done on the job. Two of the three professors I reached out to responded positively. (The third never replied personally, but I later learned that she was dealing with health issues – so, understandable that my email was not a priority.) I ended up admitted everywhere I applied, with sizeable scholarships at a few programs. So don’t despair! It can be tricky but not impossible!

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Confirming, just assume they do not remember you. If they remember you they will stop you mid-explanation. A couple of profs at my school made a big point about this- “No, we will probably not remember you. Remind us how we know you.” This saves a lot of awkwardness and gets you closer to a reference that is crafted in a meaningful manner because the prof has actually figured out which student you are.

    2. ArtK*

      I applied for grad school after a 35 year gap. I have zero contact with my old professors, more than a few of whom have passed away in any case. I used letters of recommendation from my professional contacts. I will say that my program is not an academic one, it’s a professional one, a Master’s in Engineering Management.

      I can’t really address the issue if you need strong academic references. I would have had to go the professional contact route if I had applied to an academic program.

    3. katamia*

      I’m in a similar situation, only I had horrible undiagnosed depression in college, so I KNOW that what my college professors saw of me was not an accurate representation of what I’m capable of. I plan to take a few prerequisite courses, too, and I’ll be asking professors from them because they’re more current. This won’t be my first time applying to grad school, and only one of my professors remembered me a few years ago, so they certainly won’t remember me now. Plus, since it’s library school and I’m volunteering at my library bookstore, I’ll probably ask one of my bosses to write me a rec because they freaking love me.

      1. Anxa*

        Same here. I’m not sure exactly what the diagnosis was, but let’s just say college was the confluence of a lot of different storms for me. I since went back for an A.S. on the super cheap to test my academic maturity and, despite not having taking any sort of medications or having a clear diagnoses, I ended up with with a great GPA, at the top of my program, and gushing praise from my instructor.

        But still, I only really had one instructor in my core classes that just taught pretty much everything, since it was comm college. I also know it’s not the same as university, but I ended up at the top of my class (non-credit) for a post-bac certificate, too. But that is also tricky, because we had about 30 different instructors that came in for different topics and seminars. It’s also been about 7 years since then and I’m not sure they’d remember me.

        I did have a few researchers comment on how they wish I was one of their graduate students, so I do have that, but they weren’t professors of mine, but rather volunteer/internship supervisors.

        I’m looking to go, but I’m so worried about wasting all of the application fees if my grades and lack of accomplishments so far as non-starters. The finances of actually attending depend on whether or not I find a program that allows me to go a research route, as I’d make more money on a grad student stipend than I do now.

        It’s devastating to have issues like this erupt in college because there really aren’t a lot of practical ways to get a do-over.

        1. katamia*

          Yeah. I so wish I could have some sort of do-over, and it kills me that I graduated with just below a 3.0 (major GPA was much higher, but that doesn’t seem to matter), so a lot of graduate schools will never even consider me even though I would be so good at it now that I know what went wrong before.

          I’m committed to going just because I can’t think of any other ways to improve my career trajectory, but I’m still really worried I won’t get in, and then I don’t know what the heck I’ll do.

          1. Been there*

            Katamia,
            Although a short-cut- your undergraduate GPA is NOT an indication of future success in library school.
            Focus on your present day references. Take one course non-matric. to demonstrate your ability to complete coursework successfully.
            Having had that undergrad experience, you will work harder than everyone else to prove yourself where it matters.

      2. Bad at This*

        Yeah… that’s pretty much the same boat I was in. Though these professors did like me, because I did well in their specific courses, I was really drowning towards the end of college and really didn’t get my life back together until a couple years after graduation. Good for you for making it out!

    4. Honeybee*

      Professors are used to former students getting back in touch with them after several years to apply to graduate school. Don’t feel bad for not having stayed in touch – they don’t really expect that from former students they weren’t super close to. I would try to get 1-2 references from professors from undergrad and then the other 1-2 from the prerequisite courses. If the program is a professional program (like an MPA, MPH) getting one from a professional contact if you work in a related field may be okay – I’d ask the program.

      When you reach out, just be polite and straightforward “Hello Dr. Smith. My name is Melody Keene; I took your Intro to Basketweaving course in the Fall of 2006; I got an A in the course. I’m currently applying for a graduate degree in Ultimate Frisbee. Would you be able to write a letter of recommendation for me?” If it were me I’d also attach the following documents: 1) a resume or CV and 2) a draft of your personal statement to this program explaining why you want to go and just write “If you feel you can, I’ve attached a resume and a draft of my personal statement.”

      If they can’t, the worst thing they can say is no and then you just have to find someone else. But don’t feel guilty about asking.

      1. Bad at This*

        Thanks! I just feel so awful about it, because these professors had very high opinions of me, and I just wound up not accomplishing much so far and being really behind my peers.

        The program isn’t a professional program, no, but what I do now is related to what I’d be studying and what my career outcomes would be after the program. What are the usual scripts when you reach out to the program to ask details like this? Is there any info I should give upfront about myself, or just the bare basics/questions?

        1. Viktoria*

          Are you me? I was very high achieving, my profs loved me, and it all fell apart right at the end. That was 5 years ago and I have felt so embarrassed and guilty about it all that I completely lost touch.

          Now I’m considering applying to law school and stressing about it. But the school I’m applying to puts a big emphasis on work experience so I’m hoping that professional rather than academic recommendations will do the trick.

          Good luck!

          1. CM*

            Both Bad at This and Victoria: I guarantee your professors have seen multiple promising students fall apart, and most professors will see this as an unfortunate setback rather than being disappointed in you personally. If anything, they may be happy to see how you’ve pulled yourselves together.

        2. Government Worker*

          In my grad school experience there’s an administrative person in each department who handles admissions questions, and you don’t need to try to impress them as long as you’re generally professional and not memorable in a bad way (badgering, rude, etc.) Think of it like contacting HR, not a hiring manager, before applying for a job.

          “Hi, my name is BadAtThis and I’m planning to apply for the Teapot Engineering program in the fall. I graduated from college several years ago and have recently been working as a Teapot Assistant, so I’m not sure what would be most helpful to the admissions committee for my letters of recommendation. Should my recommendations be from recent professional contacts, professors from college, or a mix? Thank you, BadAtThis.”

    5. periwinkle*

      I suspect that the recommendations from the faculty teaching the prerequisites could be stronger because they will have fresh knowledge of your current abilities. If any of those pre-reqs are graduate-level classes, even better!

      1. Bad at This*

        The weird part is, my recommendations from my old professors would be from graduate level courses (I was briefly enrolled in a BA/MA program there). But the prereqs I’d be taking now would be lower level, introductory courses, which is why I was worried about depending solely on those for references. Hopefully I can still make that work, though.

        1. wanderlust*

          You will be fine with undergrad references. Probably most of the other applicants will have undergrad references also, no?

          I applied to a graduate program last year with only professional references after being out of school for several years (not counting the enormous amount of pre-reqs I had to take just to apply!) and I think if your application is strong overall with good grades, test scores, and essays, having only professional references will not count against you. Especially if your Master’s will be in a field relevant to where you already work!

    6. The Fourth OP*

      Definitely check with the program. I just applied to a program that didn’t require letters of recommendation.

    7. Cupid*

      The school I got my Masters at offered several post-grad certificate programs (the classes could be used as electives towards a Masters as well), which I did before starting the full program – the application process for the certificate program didn’t require references or GMAT/GRE so I bought myself some extra time while earning the certificate. Then, when it was time to apply for the Masters program I was able to use professors from that same school whose classes I had just taken – it worked out perfectly and honestly made the whole thing so much easier! If your school offers any sort of post-grad classes (or pre-reqs) I suggest looking into that.

    8. Lady Julian*

      I’d encourage you to reach out to your professors; if they’re worth their salt, they’ll be happy to provide references and help you succeed.

      I’m a college instructor myself and am always happy to provide references for students I’ve had in the past; it’s so fun to reconnect! Also, I am in the middle of applying for grad school, mostly in a different field from my original degree. It’s been seven years since I graduated, I didn’t really keep in touch with my professors, and they were still happy to hear from me, talk through options, and provide references. Explain about your family / medical crisis (not in detail, of course, just a background), and ask if they’d help you out.

      Your former grad school professors will be much better than prereq courses, as they can speak more fully to your ability to handle graduate level work and top-notch coursework.

      Good luck!

    9. Anonymous Poster*

      This is so normal. They’re used to people asking them out of the blue for recommendations for graduate programs. I worked in the humanities department at my undergrad and this happened all the time. Some pointers:
      – Remind them of the year and class, that may jog their memories
      – Share what you enjoyed about the class and why you’d like them to recommend you
      – Explain why you’re doing the graduate level work (optional)
      – Give them an out to say ‘no’ (something like, “I understand if you don’t have the time for something like this, and hope you’re still doing well. Please feel free to say no if you need to or aren’t comfortable.”)

      The first two are kinda obvious to rebuild the repoire you had with them, the last one helps them gear the letter better to the university. You also want to give them the chance to say no, because nothing is better than something lackluster.

      For both of my masters these letters haven’t meant much really, so I’d only stress about this if it were something very tough to get into.

      Good luck!

    10. urban teacher*

      I am currently going for an MPA after not being in school for years. I asked my professional contacts for references and the only issue was they weren’t used to the electronic form and didn’t know to look in email for it. So I missed a deadline for 1 school. Otherwise, it wasn’t a problem.

    11. Channel Z*

      I returned to grad school recently and I had the same dilemma, but for me it had been 17 years, plus years of stay at home parenting so few work contacts. I was really embarrassed to ask my former Master’s advisor, as I had struggled but finished way back in 1999. Anyway, he replied with a candid two page account of my struggles, and ultimate triumph. I was floored. I did reply with an equally candid story of my life and its disappointments and successes.
      If you worked closely with some professors on projects and they liked your work, chances are they remember you and would be happy to write a recommendation. It doesn’t hurt to ask, the worst that can happen is that they don’t reply or say they don’t remember.

    12. LibbyG*

      I’m a professor, and I think you should feel free to reach out to your old professors. Five years isn’t very long at all, and they’ll be delighted to get this update!
      Admissions committees for grad programs are have three big questions in assessing applicants: (1) Does this person really know what they’re applying for? (2) Can they do the work? And (3) Is this someone we want to have as a student and representing us as an alum?
      Your old professors maybe can’t say much about 1, but they’ll be able to say a lot about 2 and 3. The more recent references can cover 1 well, affirming that you aren’t just going to grad school because you don’t know what to do with yourself.

    13. Marillenbaum*

      That’s excellent! Don’t sweat being out of touch; that’s very normal. When you email, explain what you’re planning on doing, and if they agree to write you a rec letter (in my experience, most will), include a copy of your CV and perhaps your statement of interest to help jog their memory.

  3. the_scientist*

    NOTE if this is too long, please feel free to delete :)

    Outside of my job, I am member of a national volunteer organization that provides emergency medical services in a specific recreational environment. At the local level, I am being groomed for a leadership role in this organization. Despite my relatively new status (this organization has many members who’ve volunteered for 25+ years) I am considered to be both skilled at the actual technical work, as well as a competent leader. I should also note that the organization is actively trying to recruit “youth” and is predominantly male, especially in leadership roles (may or may not be relevant).

    One of the other volunteers is another young woman, a bit younger than me (she’s a student; I’m a young professional.) She has actually been a volunteer for longer than I have and grew up around this organization as her father is a 30+ year member; as a result other volunteers tend to view her as a favourite niece. She is technically skilled and pursuing an emergency services career. Unfortunately, she absolutely rubs me the wrong way. She is condescending and sarcastic to people she isn’t interested in currying favour with. She inserts herself into conversations and situations that aren’t really her business. She throws actual, honest-to-goodness tantrums when she doesn’t get her way She is incapable of letting someone else take the lead on any work and will often forcefully take over the work of others. She frequently uses the word “retarded” which is one of my personal hot buttons. To my knowledge, her behaviour has never been addressed publicly by leadership. For the first couple of years I volunteered, I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt- she’s young, after all, and she has sort of a familial relationship with many members. But I think I’m done. She’s been aggressively rude to me recently, and she hasn’t exactly made any strides forward in the years I’ve known her.

    When I move into this leadership role, I’ll have some very limited authority, but not enough to make significant changes. Basically, I’m not her manager, or really even a manager. However, I would like to confront some of her worst behaviour- in particular, the sarcastic, condescending tone and comments- even if I only succeed in getting her to stop using this tone with me. What is the best approach here?

    1. AnonEMoose*

      Even if you don’t have the authority to address how she behaves generally, you absolutely have the right to address how she behaves to you. Just like you might say to a co-worker “Please don’t talk to me that way” (or the equivalent), I don’t see any reason you couldn’t say that to her. And I think you can absolutely address her use of the word “retarded.” Something like “using this word in this way is pretty offensive to me; please don’t use it as an insult.”

      And I don’t think you actually need to wait until you move into the leadership role. If you’re sticking to how she interacts with you personally, I think you can push back on that, especially because it’s a volunteer organization. Just make sure it’s specifically about how she’s interacting with you, if that makes sense.

      1. Liane*

        I think even if you don’t supervise her, saying “using this word in this way is pretty offensive to me AND many of the people Org works with, which is damaging to our reputation; please don’t use it.”

        1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

          THIS. I believe this is the best option you have. Call her out in the moment. “Jane, that’s hardly appropriate language for this organization. That’s a very offensive word and is not acceptable to use. Our organization responds without discrimination and using that word damages our reputation.”

          When she interjects in your conversation, push her out. “Jane, if I need to discuss this with you, I will come talk to you. Please let Wakeen and I finish our conversation.”

          When she tries to take over duties, shut her down. “Jane, you were directed to prep bandages. Please focus on that and not on the AED. Yes, I’m well aware you are AED certified – so is Wakeen. But he has been given this task and he will be the one completing it.”

          I was the know it all student interjecting myself all of the time. I’ve been that stupid. It honestly took feeling like everyone hated me to back off. No one ever had a simple conversation with me saying, “Seriously, mind your own business.” But I finally had someone not all that much older than me step in and start shutting me down, and the dominoes fell – everyone else followed through and shut me down. They were all scared to do so because I had so long been involved but once one person did, they all joined in. I’m still a part of that organization but I’ve really grown and learned how to control myself. She will, too!

          1. Parenthetically*

            Yep this right here. Saying something in the moment is really powerful, and it’s something everyone can do, and it spreads. People like this person thrive on and take advantage of the awkwardness of confrontation.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          This. Target issues that most people will agree she needs to fix. The use of the word retarded is a good, solid example.

          I think of it this way, what is she going to do, report you because you told her not to use an insulting word? That should not play out well for her, if your org has decent people in it.
          In a similar vein, if she tells you something like STFU, you can feel free to say that expression is not appropriate in this (volunteer work place) setting. Again, what is she going to do, tell everyone that she said STFU and you simply said that was not an appropriate expression to be using.

          Keep your statements short and simple. Try to be flat and unemotional. Until you learn the landscape target this issues that most people would agree you are correct. Honestly, I think just by doing this much you will either change her or she will move away from the group.

    2. TL -*

      You don’t actually need authority to call someone out. It’s fine to say things like, “wow, your tone is coming off as really harsh.” Or, “I actually find that word incredibly offensive. Please don’t use it around me.” “It seems like you’re really upset. Can we talk about it later when we’re both a little calmer?”
      And my favorite, “that’s rude. Please don’t speak to so and so like that.”

      1. Evergreen*

        I’d even go so far to suggest starting that now – otherwise when you step into the leadership position you risk looking a bit mad on power or something.

    3. Relly*

      I feel like being briskly cheerful / businesslike about it might be the best way to shut down tantrums. You are a wall of politeness with firm boundaries.

      “You may not realize it, but that word is very offensive to many people. I would appreciate it if you didn’t use it.”

      “Your tone is coming off as harsh. Please don’t speak to others in such a way.”

      “I’m sorry, but this conversation is private.”

      No matter how she escalates, you stay polite and calm, utterly unmoved by her drama. You are the black hole where drama goes to die. You shrug off all rudeness and firmly restate your boundaries and ignore, ignore, ignore the rest.

      1. the_scientist*

        “the black hole where drama goes to die”- I love this and I’ll make it my new mantra. You’re all correct of course, I just need to (wo)man up and say something. It’s funny because generally speaking I have no problems speaking up in the moment, but this organization is so weird and full of drama, and she’s such a favourite child, that I’m totally out of my element there.

        1. neverjaunty*

          Yes, this is beautiful.

          Also, on the tantrums, treat it the same way you would a child – “Elspetina, you’re clearly too upset to discuss this. I’ll come back when you’ve collected yourself.” *walks away*

  4. Sunflower*

    Does anyone work in an industry/have a job where you enjoy what you do/are motivated AND the pay is high as well?

    1. RKB*

      I’m a few months away from being a speech therapist and all the ones I’ve shadowed or worked with for my practicums love their jobs. It helps that in Alberta, speech therapists make a starting salary of 6 figures, which I know isn’t the norm.

        1. RKB*

          Yes. It’s also super intensive work – 3.7 entrance GPA competitive. There’s only 42 people in my cohort.

          1. Chriama*

            Some medical services can really make bank in Alberta. Dentists make easily 300k because their fees are unregulated here. If we had any real cities instead of sprawling suburbs I would stay and marry a dentist (or, evidently, a speech therapist).

            1. Toronto, Canada, Anon*

              OT, but my dentist was lamenting the fact that she can’t afford a home in Toronto and likely never will, even though she and her fiance are both dentists.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Well, you caught me on a bad day, but sometimes, yes. I’m an engineering project manager with a mechanical engineering background. I work for an engineering/construction firm.

    3. Claudia M.*

      I wouldn’t necessarily couple like what you do with motivated.

      I love what I do – the work, specifically. And I am paid rather nicely for it.

      However, I am not motivated to keep coming here. For many reasons other than the work itself, I am looking at promoting again.

      It is possible. But, for me, eventually I get antsy and have to promote. 3-5 years at one position is more than enough before the urge to move starts up again.

    4. Tookie Clothespin*

      Haha yes, I am in consulting, in a speciality area of tax. However, I’ve also had positions I’ve hated in consulting. It took some time to get to the team I wanted to be on in an area I wanted to focus on.

      Consulting is definitely hit or miss, but there are opportunities for the right fit.

        1. Tookie Clothespin*

          Nope, tax consulting at a Big4 firm. I couldn’t find a legal job out of law school and ended up at a small consulting firm doing a lot of tax compliance (which I hated), but I got to know a lot of people in my speciality area and ended up doing some work for them – the law degree was very helpful in that regard. That firm ended up blocking my attempt to transfer over there full time, and I ended up finding an opportunity to move into my area in the Big 4 full time.

          Hours can be a little nuts but they really do respect work-life balance in my team. (I’m lucky!). Work is interesting and in my practice they’re really good about letting people pursue interests like going on rotations in other speciality groups, cross training, etc.

          1. snowball*

            cool! I may be doing something similar at a big4 in the next few months and I’m glad to hear that you like it.

          2. Anansi*

            I know a lot of people who work at Big 4 tax/accounting firms and they all seem to love it. I do policy (including tax) for a corporation and I like it a lot most of the time. It’s very busy and fast paced but I prefer that to being bored, and as long as you do a good job you get a lot of flexibility.

        2. Some sort of Management Consultant*

          I’m a management consultant at a Big4 firm. So not the kind of incredible pay one can get at the big Strategy firms. But I also rarely work more than 40-45 hours a week and the pay’s still decent.

          And I love it l!

          1. Chriama*

            That’s really cool. Can I pick your brain about it more? I’m considering moving into management consulting.

            1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

              Sure!
              What would you like to know?

              I should probably note that Big4 firms vary A LOT between countries and even between offices and teams.
              I work within our Organization and Change team and our Seniors are a lot more invested in work-life balance than, say, the Risk management team.

              But ask away!

              1. Sunflower*

                How many years have you been in the workforce?
                What was your degree/major and work experience prior to being there?
                Is it a difficult industry to break into?
                What kind of personality/skills do well in this position?

                1. Honeybee*

                  One of my close friends from graduate school is a management consultant with McKinsey, and I’ve got a couple of other acquaintances who have gone to BCG, Bain, and Booz Allen Hamilton. My second-hand experience is that you can work as a lower-level business analyst in the business with a BA, but after 2-3 years they really expect you to get a graduate degree. All of my friends who started with consulting firms had graduate degrees – some of the firms (especially McKinsey and BCG) have actively begun recruiting non-MBA graduate degree holders. They call them “advanced degree candidates.” They get paid the same amount as MBAs, and go through a mini-MBA training process in the first couple weeks at work. They also all went into consulting straight out of graduate school.

                  A couple of the top firms have short 3-4 day programs where you can learn about consulting and network with some leaders – I’m pretty sure it guarantees you an interview. McKinsey’s is called McKinsey Insight and BCG’s is called Bridge to BCG.

    5. Manders*

      I really like working in SEO. The industry pays pretty well, although I think at this point I’m far below market rate in my area (I took this job because they were willing to train me, and it was totally worth it).

      My partner teaches at a private high school. With his level of education, he gets a very nice salary even though he isn’t full time yet, and may eventually switch to the incredibly swanky school in our area that will give down payments to teachers so they can buy a home near the school.

    6. emma*

      My husband is a civil engineer for a private engineering firm, and loves it. Good pay + bonuses twice a year.

    7. Christy*

      Yes, I work for an advocacy organization within the US government (admittedly, there have been a few recent motivation issues, but my agency is safe) as a management and program analyst (and SharePoint developer). My work help people, I solve fun problems to help our other employees help people, and I have great coworkers. Plus my hours are good and my benefits are great.

    8. fposte*

      How are you defining high pay? I make under six digits but I’m in an LCOL area and have quite a nice life on my pay. My job’s a bit of a purple unicorn, but it’s higher ed.

    9. Lindsey*

      I’m a program manager and work in executive education. I design curriculums to make people better leaders…but my organization dips both into professional and personal development, so some days I’m working with Ivy Leagues and some days I’m planning a trip to the Bahamas.

    10. Tau*

      Yes – well, *my* salary isn’t high, but I know I’m being paid well under market rate. I’m a software developer. :)

    11. Adlib*

      I’m not sure I love my industry, but I do enjoy the fact that I’m now in a position I have a degree in as well as an area that is more of a personal interest where I’ve cultivated enough self-education to be competent. Recently brought up to market rates for what I do, which is nice. Finally!

    13. Honeybee*

      I do. I’m a user researcher at a video game company. I design research studies to understand users/players’ needs and preferences in video games – what works, what doesn’t work. For example, I might design a test of the first level of a game and find out it takes three times as long as expected because it’s too hard, or interview players about their experiences playing multiplayer online to figure out new features we need to add (both things that I’ve actually done).

      There are user (experience, or “UX”) researchers across tech companies. Games user research is a small subset of the field, but basically everything that humans use – our cars, our phones, most apps on our phones by big companies, webpages, IoT devices, you name it – are tested at some point by a UX researcher or someone who has UX research in their role. Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, Snapchat, Uber, etc. – they all have big UX research outfits. So do most of the big games companies – Activision/Blizzard, Bungie, Ubisoft, Bethesda, Sony’s studios, Microsoft Studios/Xbox, etc. I work for one of the big game companies on a household name game.

      I looooooooove my job. It’s not even just the gaming, although that’s great too – I love working in the video games industry. But it’s bringing the human aspect to technology – understanding how and why people use technology – and then using that insight to improve the tech and make it more usable. I like doing it for video games, but I think I’d like it just as much with social media or smartphones or search engines. But that’s because 1) my background is in psychology and I love it; and 2) I’m obsessed with tech.

      As for pay – user research salaries in tech start in the upper five to lower six figures depending on where you work. Smaller companies and boutique UX consultancies usually pay in the $75-90K range, and the bigger companies typically start you at $100K or more. Most user researchers have a master’s in psychology or human-computer interaction or some related social science field (or sometimes business or marketing and some research experience, but many have PhDs and some have BAs and lots of experience.

      1. Manders*

        Oh my goodness, UX is so interesting. May I ask how you got into the field? I got a chance to dip my toes into web design UX with a focus on conversion rate optimization this year and I’m loving it, but I have no idea whether it’s possible to progress in the field with no formal background in psychology or web design.

        1. Honeybee*

          I got a PhD in social/health psychology. I originally intended to become a public health researcher at a university or a government agency, but I wanted to keep my options open so during my PhD program I did a 6-month market research internship, during which I worked on video games market research. I also did some statistical consulting. Both of them turned out to be great preparation, because I got bored with public health during my postdoc and decided to apply to a bunch of UX positions to see what happened.

          Many UX research jobs are actually pretty used to people coming from adjacent and seemingly unrelated content areas, and are really interested in whether one has the research skills to do the work. You don’t need to have a formal background in psychology per se – we interview people without it all the time, and on our team we’ve got people with backgrounds in photography, chemical engineering and nursing. They all bring a unique perspective on user research, though. What I have told some other folks already in tech is to look for a way to get some UX skills/experience in their current role – whether that’s spearheading an A/B test on their website or calling for some user feedback on some aspect. Some companies also have junior level positions that are essentially research assistants, and a lot of people start there. I would say that eventually to become a fully-fledged research, most people do get a master’s degree. I do know one person who has been able to advance relatively far with a BA in informatics, though. He started out in a different role in my company and then moved into that role later.

      2. AJaya*

        I’ve always been interested in this field. I’m currently in a marketing role. What’s the best way to transition into this kind of work?

        1. Honeybee*

          Ooh, marketing is like our cousin field :D We work with market research pretty often, and lots of people make that jump. So one way might be to move through market research into user research; we do have a lot of people go that way. Another might be to look for a market intelligence position, which is kind of like the bridge between market research and user research. Several of our teams have 1-2 market intelligence researchers (who basically help us paint a picture of what our audiences look like to give us an idea of the features and devices and software we *should* be building – now and into the future – to keep up. They look farther out than the user researchers, who are usually concerned with an immediate product).

          I will say that my team does explicitly consider a background in market research or strategy consulting when we look at resumes for open positions. I think one of the most important things is being able to articulate in an interview that you know what the difference between marketing/market research and user experience research is, and how that’s going to change your work and your mindset.

      3. plain_jane*

        This is an area I’m really interested in moving into. I’ve got 15 years of experience in consumer market research, and graduated university with a Computer Science degree. I’m concerned that my resume will be overlooked because I’ve spent so long outside of UX (which was what I _wanted_ to do when I graduated). Any tips?

        1. Honeybee*

          I think it’s going to depend on the company. My team hires people with really diverse resumes, some (many, actually) of which never had any formal experience in UX research specifically before they worked here – although all have had some kind of social science research background, broadly defined. Other divisions within my company, and other companies, really value the UX research background and don’t really hire people without specific types of degrees and experience. In my experience, though, the biggest companies don’t think that narrowly – I’ve chatted with recruiters at some big tech companies and they’ve all viewed my weird non-HCI, non-UX background positively.

          That said, I think that your market research experience can be viewed favorably especially if on your resume you articulate skills that are directly applicable to user research. If you’ve done any qualitative research, I’d highlight that (lots of positions look for both qual and quant – we do lots of interviews and usability studies). If you’ve worked directly with non-business teams in product development of any type, highlight that too (most UX researchers are either embedded directly in product teams or work very closely with product teams on a daily basis). One of the big skills we look for is being able to create actionable insights from the research you gathered, so highlighting any evidence of that – and potentially how you convinced someone to transform something into something better – could be good to highlight in a resume or interview. Your CS background could be used to emphasize that you know how to speak developers’ language and can bridge a potential gap between developers and researchers to help them achieve their design intent. Having technical knowledge can be an asset for a UX researcher.

          Another potential way is if you live nearby a tech company with a UX team – see if you can have an informational interview with one of the researchers. I and others on my team actually do these all the time with people who basically cold e-mail our team to ask questions, particularly if their resume looks intriguing, and I keep them in mind when we have an open position.

      5. JHunz*

        Speaking as a software engineer, a good UX person on the team is worth their weight in gold, which is probably a fair bit more than the actual salary they’re getting paid.

      6. Ann O.*

        Oh man, I’m jealous. I’ve been in tech writing, but my wonderful, perfect job is changing out from under me into a horrible nightmare. I really want to switch to UX. I was part of a UX project of our customer documentation portal, and it was so wonderful. My academic background is Anthropology, so it was like coming home.

    14. LawCat*

      Government lawyer. I’ve always enjoyed it, but am waaaaaay more relaxed since I stopped doing litigation. Government work is kind of all over the place in pay depending on what government entity you work for. My current employer is one of the higher payers for government lawyers in my geographic area.

      1. CM*

        Second happy lawyer here — it’s not necessarily a profession I’d recommend for high pay + happiness, because you have to be pretty lucky and do significant planning to have both. I’m in-house counsel at a company that does something I think is really cool and useful, and is not an evil soul/environment-killing type of corporation.

    16. Mon Mon*

      Yes! I switched from Financial Services to Retail (working in IT), and my pay is very decent for the geography, although I “gave up” a couple things by switching industries. Namely bonus, and some vacation time. But! Despite that, I actually love working at my company. I learn about a whole new industry where we throw around celebrity names in meetings (that never happens in Financial Services), showcase some new products in all-hands meetings, and for my job specifically…I get to work on what I want to work on, when I want to work on it. I spot gaps in our process and set about rectifying those by soliciting input and rolling out my recommendations. And the kicker is…everyone seems very happy with this! I have very little direction on what I should work on aside from a couple things and I determine my strategy for learning the business. All in all, it’s pretty cool (in my eyes).

    17. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Environmental scientist and consultant here. I get paid a very decent salary to do a job that’s directly related to my field of study, and while I’m occasionally not motivated, it’s nothing to do with the job.

      Is it what I enjoy doing? I dunno; I wouldn’t do it for free, but I find it sufficiently engaging to put on pants every morning, so.

    19. Jen RO*

      My answer probably won’t help you, because I am not in the US, but I’m a technical writer, I love the job, and I make very good money for my country. (I think the situation is quite different compared to the US, mainly because the industry is relatively new here, so it’s a candidate’s market so to say.)

    20. Master Bean Counter*

      I love being an accountant and the pay is really nice. But I’ve got two degrees and took a very expensive series of tests.

    21. Grapey*

      I do. Logistics/operational analytics in a biotech industry … 6 figure salary after 10 years.

      I got a bachelors in biology 10 years ago, got a job at a non-profit doing basic entry level lab stuff, and over time I got more interested in the logistics and supply chain side of things. I was lucky to have management that cared about what I was interested in and they let me shadow/work with the higher level process engineers and management.

    22. Triangle Pose*

      Yes! I’m an in-house lawyer at a telecomm/media company. I’m paid more than I made at BigLaw firm and my hours are 8:30-5:30 and flexible with WFH. I negotiate agreements with sophisticated parties, I advise my clients on business strategy and I’m paid 190k+ a year and we have 5% 401k match. I realize how lucky I am and I really try hard to support my business units and do a great job.

    23. Anonnie*

      I also do strategy work but I am usually on internal teams supporting senior leadership, and have spent my career moving around from industry to industry. I just moved into a new role and I thought I wouldnt enjoy it as much but I LOVE it. Now I work in strategy for a regulator as the outside view – what is going on in the market, what could that impact, would regulations need to be required to help consumers further or manage/avoid concentrated market power, etc. We will be having a big impact on a major global name/player soon which means the work is very interesting every day.

      I could make more money in industry, but after a disaster of a workplace at my last job, to have a calm interview with people who were intelligent and likable was a breath of fresh air. Sacrificed some (not much) pay for a prestige name on my resume, a workplace that lets you go home at the end of the day (so I have time to work on my own projects), and interesting work with very smart people who I like spending time with.

      I fell into strategy the back way and didn’t go the traditional route of MBA-> Big4/mgmt consultancy ->industry but I do have a masters in economics and I do actually use it every day. Strategy consulting does contain a high level of egotistical jerks, but also some very bright people with wicked sense of humor. A thick skin is a must and the ability to think on your feet and know/play the politics of the org you are working in. If you are a natural born strategist that almost comes automatically!

      I actually got this job through a recommendation from someone at my last job.

    24. Bibliovore*

      Depends what you mean by “high pay” I have “enough” I pay the rent, have a car, eat what I want, have some to support family members, and health insurance.
      I am an academic librarian in a big ten university. I love, love, love my job. Seriously. I love it so much that if someone gave me a million dollars, I would still do my job but I would endow the position and perhaps hire another assistant.
      Before that I was a teacher/librarian in a school library. I loved, loved, loved it. Same as above but I would have also hired a car to drive me to work everyday. (my commute was an hour and some on public transit)

      Before that I was a public children’s librarian in a very busy urban environment. I loved, loved, loved it. Same as above but I would have hired three more librarians to assist in my department AND worked only 4 days a week and no nights. (yes this one WAS exhausting bridging on burnout)

    25. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I am a public school teacher making almost $70k, so I think I am really lucky to have such a great job AND get paid very well for the profession. I am especially lucky in the role I have because I am not constrained by any particular curriculum, or even really by the Common Core Standards, so I get to focus on what my students actually, demonstrably need rather than what some corporation or administrator thinks they should need. Also, I don’t have to go to 4 hours of meetings every week during prep periods like some of my colleagues do.

    26. JHunz*

      I’m a software engineer working on software for gaming peripherals. The atmosphere is great, the products I’m working on are really interesting in a lot of ways, I get free stuff that I use for my heavy gaming habit, and I get paid decently because I’m not actually making the games themselves (which is a hugely passion-based and therefore generally underpaid section of tech).

    27. Clever Name*

      I’m a consultant at a boutique environmental consulting firm, and the pay is pretty darn good for someone with a life sciences degree who isn’t a doctor. I also don’t have to sell my soul to work for an oil company.

  5. SOS*

    My boss informed me that he was giving me additional work to do. So now instead of doing the jobs of two and a half people, I’ll be doing to the work of three and a half people. Goody for me.

    I was already contemplating leaving because the job has been affecting my mental health severely (panic attacks, sleepless nights, depression, etc) but this has settled it. I have been searching for new employment for a while now with no luck but my current job is making it far more likely that I will have to leave even if I don’t have a new job to go to. I’d started planning some time ago because I had a feeling things were about to get worse in my office, which has proven to be true. I have enough money in savings to last me at least eight months, more if I take the offers of friends and family for free/cheap housing. Current exit window would be right at the end of our busy season so at least I won’t leave them with the impression of ditching them at the worst time of year.

    What else should I be thinking of if I’m about to make this terrifying leap into unemployment? What do I say to nosey coworkers asking why I’m leaving if the answer isn’t for a new job or because I’m pregnant (the only two reasons we’ve had for people leaving lately)? And what do I say to employers I’m interviewing with when they ask why I left? Just trying to think of everything I might need to cover my bases before I make this drastic choice.

    1. mamabear*

      I think you can tell coworkers that you’re shifting careers and taking time to figure out your options/your next move.

      For employers, would you feel comfortable telling them that over time, your role at ExJob shifted significantly and it was no longer a good fit?

    2. Chriama*

      To coworkers I would say “I’m taking some time off and considering a few options.”
      To employers, just be matter-of-fact. “Two employees left and their positions weren’t replaced, so I ended up working 80 hours a week for 6 straight months. I decided to take some time off to really focus on finding the right fit in my next job.”

    3. ChrysantheMumsTheWord*

      I’ve so been there and I just want to start by saying I’m sorry. Your situation sucks. It’s a tough decision to leave without something else lined up and you really have to bottom line it and say, “Am I willing to take positions outside of my desired career path/below my current skill level to get by if necessary?”

      Earlier on in my career I quit a job because of the mental/emotional stress without anything lined up and it took me almost a year and a half of searching to land somewhere. I ended up temping to get by and eventually find my place again. If your search goes on longer than the money you have saved you have to be prepared to make tough decisions.

      Last year I left a company after 10 years of working my way up. When you are leaving due to dysfunction or stress it can be tough to find the words during the hiring process that don’t make YOU look like the problem. I found the best way was to highlight what I wanted and why my current workplace wasn’t able to accommodate that. For example, “I have a passion for doing XYZ but as my position responsibilities changed I found I was unable to focus on the things I was truly passionate about so I’m seeking to replace that.”

      Good luck!

    5. EngineerInNL*

      I worked as a lifeguard at an outdoor pool for $8.25/hour which was a whopping $2.25 over minimum wage at the time so I was the rich friend for those summers haha

    6. paul*

      Ditch ’em in the worst time of the year, why not.

      I may be in a bit of a burn it all down mood today though…but seriously, you don’t owe employers loyalty like that if they’ve treated you badly.

    7. Sibley*

      You actually have another option you could try first. You have FU money. Try using it. Go to manager and say, “hey, I’ve been working 80hrs per week for 6 months now (or whatever it is), and it’s really not sustainable for me. I’m going to have to resume a more standard work schedule of 40-45 hours per week. Can you let me know which tasks I should prioritize to complete?” Then actually work 40-45 hours per week. Period.

      What’s going to happen? They fire you? You’re already planning to quit, so how is that a problem? You might be eligible for unemployment. But you might be surprised – you might just be working 40-45 hours per week .

      1. it happens*

        I’m with Sibley. And even better, if you can get those 40-45 hours in four days, giving you a day to devote solely to job searching. (after a few weeks with a day of self care only…)

    8. SM*

      For co-workers just go for vague… “I felt it was time to move on” or something along those lines.

      When I was interviewing to get out of a bad job I tried to keep it vague as well, “it wasn’t a good cultural fit”, but I found more often than not that the interviewer didn’t react well to that or kept pressing me for more information. So I went with something that kind of hinted at it being a terrible workplace, but then brought it right back to the interview. Something like “I didn’t agree with the way management handled the workload, so I’m looking for a place that’s more organized and places more value on work-life balance”. This was really helpful because if you watch people’s faces closely when you say work-life balance, you can actually get a really good sense of the company. If they flinch or look nervous, be very cautious going forward.

    9. Whats In A Name*

      First of all, sorry to hear you are in this situation. But good for you for recognizing it, planning for it and creating a nice little nest egg for yourself.

      In regards to your co-workers: I am of the mind that it’s really none of their business. I mean, I’d be tempted to say “I’ve decided to hunt down purple elephants in Antarctica”. But seriously if you do want to share I’d just say you were leaving to get some personal things in order & leave it at that. Same with family/friends/acquaintances.

      Now, the employer thing can be tricky in my opinion. I think you have to explain your situation but you really have to be careful. Sometimes “not a fit”, “took time to sort out some personal issues” “took an emotional toll” can be perceived as you not getting along with supervisor, being flaky, etc. Not saying it’s even fair but it is a reality to consider.

      Can you point to something factual and concrete and emotionless?

      When I left my last job I was out of town 22 night a month for 5 months in a row. I was up front with interviewers about the face that I enjoyed the job but with the commitment being more than I agreed combined with my supervisor informing me this was the new expected norm. They seemed to get that, but luckily I found something before I quit.

      I think if you can point to concrete facts you mentioned above. You need to demonstrate that you are ok with pitching in and helping out your team/company/manager when needed but that an important work-life balance is also something you value and are taking into consideration in new jobs.

  6. katamia*

    I’ve been volunteering at my library bookstore for awhile now. I mostly shelve books, as do other volunteers, although I’m the only one doing it at my time. Our price tags are all dated, and when there’s no room left on a shelf, we’re supposed to take the oldest books off to make room. In the last couple months, we’ve had another volunteer not do that–they’ll just slide the books horizontally on top of the shelved books. (I know it’s a volunteer and not a customer because the horizontal ones all have the same dates and because it’s just happening so consistently that it’s really unlikely that we just have a bunch of customers suddenly doing that.) This is making my shelving harder because I have to fix/juggle their mess in addition to putting books on the shelf. However, since I’m the only one there at that time, I have no clue who it is or why they’re doing it–laziness, poorly trained, or something else. Is there anything I could say to my boss, or would it be too weird to say something?

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      “I’ve noticed when I’ve been shelving lately that someone is overloading the shelves instead of removing the oldest books the way I was trained. Is it possible one of the other volunteers needs a refresher on the correct procedure?”

    2. Murphy*

      I think it’s worth saying something. Not making a big stink about it, but just a “hey, just so you know…”

    3. Kyrielle*

      I’d be tempted to use something like this: “I’ve noticed lately that when I go to do shelving, the newest books have been laid horizontally above full shelves. My understanding was that I was supposed to remove the oldest books to make room for them in the shelf – should I be laying them on top when the shelf is full, instead?”

    4. SophieChotek*

      Could you just ask nicely – “hey has the procedure changed? I’ve noticed lately when I shelve books, I was told to remove old books because….but lately I’ve noticed when we run out of room, someone has been putting books horizontally on top of other books? Are we now doing this to ensure our patrons have the largest selection of books to buy from?”

      Guess you could try that?

      (I suppose if all the books are the same date, you might be able to figure out who is doing it by looking at a volunteer schedule and matching up dates…if the schedule is available to look at…)

    5. ArtK*

      When you bring this to the boss, make sure you point out how this is affecting your job and the bookstore’s mission. It looks bad to customers to see stuff piled up like that. It leaves outdated books on the shelf. It slows down the restocking process making you less efficient and unavailable for other tasks.

      In other words, don’t tattle (“Some volunteer isn’t doing their job”), report that there is a problem that is affecting the store and your ability to do your job.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Definitely this. All you need to do is point out pretty soon there will not be enough room on the shelves if these old books are not weeded out regularly. Make it about “what” not “who”.

      2. Tabby Baltimore*

        This is also a safety issue. Loose books lying on top of already-shelved books can be jostled (think kids running around and hitting the bookcase, or someone trying to pry out a tightly-fitted book on the shelf) and fall into a bookstore patron’s face (eyes, nose, mouth), neck, chest, or feet, resulting in anything from a scratched cornea to broken toes.

    6. Volunteer Coordinator in NoVA*

      Totally worth saying something as your boss may not even realize whats happening. It could be lack of training or that the other volunteer just doesn’t understand and that will never be corrected if they don’t know about it. I often have volunteers point out things (sometimes super small and sometimes larger issues) to me as I can’t see everything happening at once and it’s a great way to get feedback but also to make sure I’m (or someone on my staff) is training people correctly.

    7. BettyD*

      I’d bring it up to the supervisor/volunteer coordinator as mentioned above. Sometimes library volunteers have trouble with treating books like commodities that need to be refreshed or discarded when necessary. I wonder if this is a person who thinks they’re doing a good thing to “save” the older books.

  7. John Ames Boughton*

    I’m trying and failing to figure out how to approach making a lateral move. I have a white-collar job as part of a small consulting team in a 100-person company, and I do all sorts of things: I write parts of reports, I manage our project-tracking system in Salesforce (and I designed it too), I’m involved in developing new products, I do follow-up calls with clients to track quality and look for new problems we can solve, I do sales support by writing proposals and similar stuff; the list goes on.
    It’s not a bad job, but when I think about my next career step, I’m completely stymied, and that’s pretty miserable. I don’t really have a title here (“content manager”), my job description is very vague, and I’m not sure how to translate what I do into a category that fits the way other companies search for employees. That means that when I go looking for a similar position somewhere else, I don’t know what what I’m looking for would be called, or what to call what I’m doing when I talk to other people. I know networking might help, but I’m in a smaller town in north Idaho – there’s not a lot of people to talk to. Help?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Sounds like what we would call a business development coordinator role, or potentially a marketing coordinator in the consulting industry. Depending on what you like, you might also lean towards a marketing analyst or BD analyst role (spending more time on report writing and Salesforce, less time on the other).

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Well, that doesn’t have to be your destiny if you don’t want it to be! Product development would be outside of the BD/Marketing realm. You could focus on that.

    2. Marcy Marketer*

      What about a project manager (non -technical). There are also roles out there just for managing salesforce within organizations. Business Development is pretty salesy, but some of what youre doing sounds right for that.

      1. zora*

        Yeah, if you are good with Salesforce and you like working with it, that is a whole job category right there. You could just search for “Salesforce” in the title on job boards and look at the job descriptions to do some research?

      2. John Ames Boughton*

        Technically I figured out what we needed the system to look like and then worked with someone who knew how to actually build things in Salesforce to get it in place. I’m pretty proud of this project; the company was going to spend $20K on a Salesforce add-on until I raised my hand and said that we could do everything we wanted to do already, for free, if we put a little time into it.

    3. Chriama*

      When you think about your career step, what do you want to be doing? Come up with a title that accurately reflects what a junior-level version of that job would be doing.

    4. Cherry*

      Maybe Product Marketing Manager or Project Coordinator? You could even focus on technical writing or proposal management pieces if those interest you. (waving from Coeur d’Alene, Idaho)

    5. CM*

      For networking, could you find people on LinkedIn (ask friends for introductions if necessary) and have phone calls with them?

    6. DoDah*

      What does “involved in developing new products mean”? Writing feature/benefit statements? User studies? SWOT analysis? Managing release calendar?

      Do you practice Agile? Are you scrum certified?

      1. John Ames Boughton*

        We’re a lot less systematic than that; the projects I’ve been involved in have been more ad hoc, since we’re a seven-person team with a lot of autonomy. For a current product we’re developing, for example, numerous clients I talked to mentioned that they were interested in measuring something related to the consulting service we were already providing. As it happens, one of the other departments at the company is providing a product whose user data could provide a pretty good answer to that question, so I asked my boss if it seemed like a useful addition, talked to the other department, and we’re setting up a system that’ll let us pull that data into the report. Once that’s in place we’ll let sales know it’s a thing they can mention in their pitches.

        I’ve taken an Intro to Project Management course online and have a copy of the PMBOK in my desk, but that level of organization is wild overkill for the scale I’m operating at.

    7. Grapey*

      I have a very, very similar job description. My best guess would be something like “business analyst”; sounds vague but it really means someone that knows the processes very well and is therefore qualified to wear all sorts of different hats.

      Domain knowledge (where stuff is; who to talk to; why things are the way they are) is a very important skill to have. Business analysts need to have that skill, and you have it.

    8. YesYesYes*

      Sales Operations. Sales Reporting. Market Reporting. Market Analysis. Business Development.
      Your level might be Analyst/Specialist/Manager depending on the size of the company.

      Go out to a job board like linkedin or monster and start searching jobs with key words that you both do now and like. Like “product reporting” and “salesforce” and “product development”. Read through the job descriptions until you find a job that sounds interesting. Use that title as a new search and do the same exercise again. Keep going until you identify the roles that you are targeting.

  8. RKB*

    Let’s take a trip down memory lane!

    What was your first job and how much did it pay? You can provide the year for context but don’t have to ;)

    I worked concessions at a movie theatre. I made 8.25 an hour.

      2. Bethlam*

        Me, too; $35 a week, but this was in 1973. Although, technically, I guess you could say babysitting was my first job, at 50 cents an hour.

    2. Faith*

      Accounting/business law tutor at my university (part time job while I was getting my undergrad). Got paid $8.50 an hour.

    3. Dawn*

      Girl Scout summer camp counselor. I think I made maybe $1000 for 10 weeks of work. I loved it and sometimes I wish I could go do it again as an adult!

    5. Murphy*

      Assistant to the children’s librarian in a public library. Started 2001, I think I got paid ~$6.50 an hour?

    7. Traci*

      I was a hostess at a local diner. $4.25/hr, which was more than the minimum wage at the time of $3.75/hr…I thought I was rich!

    9. GrandCanyonJen*

      I was a page at our county library. I made $3.85 (which I believe was minimum wage in my state in 1988).

      1. Used to be bored at work*

        Me too! Except it was a city library and in 2006 we made $6.92 which was above minimum! Huh this just make me realize that I’ve more than doubled my hourly wage in 10 years. Interesting to think about it that way.

      2. Anon scientist*

        My first job was as a page as well. $6 per hour, which was $.50 more than state minimum wage. Because of family connections, I started as a senior page. The junior pages got paid less than state minimum because we were municipal employees.

    11. SophieChotek*

      serving coffee and cookies at church on sundays. maybe $6 an hour? possibly less.
      I was 14 so any money was awesome at this point.

    12. Ms. Meow*

      My first job was as a receptionist at a YMCA getting paid $5.50/hr (which was a bit above minimum wage at the time IIRC).

    13. AnotherAlison*

      Collator at a printing company. I basically pulled customers print orders and got them ready for shipping. $6.23/hr for day shift in 1995.

    14. Kyrielle*

      Phone surveys. I think it paid about $40…total, because I only lasted one day. (I honestly don’t remember what the hourly rate was, but it was probably near minimum wage.)

      I’d asked whether I’d be doing cold call sales, and they said no. I didn’t think to ask about cold call surveys…. Sigh.

      1. Nan*

        ha! I telemarketed Kirby vacuums, chiropratic services, and meat. I did pretty good at vacuums and back cracking, but made it less than a week at meat. I just ghosted them.

    16. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      Mine was a camp counselor, specifically assigned to the arts and crafts room. So fun! I made … $4.50/hr. I feel old being old enough that minimum wage was that low!

    17. Temperance*

      I did concession at a movie theatre as well, but only made $5.50/hour. I’m 33, and this was in 1999.

    18. Anna*

      Office assistant on a Marine Corps base. I made less than minimum wage. Because apparently the government doesn’t have to follow its own laws. :P I think it was $1.95/hr. I was 14.

    19. ExceptionToTheRule*

      I was a part-time file clerk in a medical office for minimum wage. Google tells me that was $3.35/hour in 1988. I rode my bike to work because I wasn’t old enough to drive.

    20. Today I'm Anon*

      Walking beans – $5/hr. I was working for my dad and I’m sure he gave me a premium over what the job was actually worth.

      1. vpc*

        Walking… beans? (I’m envisioning a line of snap beans attached to leashes, followed by a tumbling bundle of dried pinto beans…)

      2. Mananana*

        Oh, the dreaded walking beans. Spent many o’ summer day chopping weeds out to the soybean field. Mosquitoes, humidity, jeans wet from the dew…… all for the glorious sum of $3 an hour.

      1. Chicken Little*

        Ooh! I win! I got $1.60 in 1970 waiting tables, washing dishes, cashiering, et cetera in a truckstop.

        1. pandq*

          I’m close! 1968 – $1.40 per hour? and all the popcorn I could eat at the movie theater. (that got old fast).

    26. FDCA In Canada*

      I worked at an ice cream shop. I think I was 15? It paid $5.50 an hour and at some point in the summer I received a raise to $6 hourly, and thought I was very wealthy! I’m 28.

    27. alter_ego*

      I worked at Limited Too for $7.25 an hour. I of course quit to make $8.50 an hour somewhere else a couple of weeks before my state raised the minimum wage to $8.50 anyway.

    28. TheLazyB*

      Waiting on staff at a hotel. £3 an hour, back in summer 1992. I was 16-17 ish. My younger sister got me the job. I got drunk the night before I started and stuck my head out of the window and threw up down the side of my mum’s car. My sister (2 years younger) was totally mad at me. I didn’t really get why at the time. I was fine once I’d thrown up!!!!

      I got classier as I got older I swear.

      1. TheLazyB*

        Oh actually also teaching violin and piano to small children for £6 an hour, although usually only for 15 or 30 min. I was about 15-16.

    29. Colorado CrazyCatlady*

      My first real job was working for CVS making $5.25/hour, 20 years ago. That makes me feel old.

    30. Anatole*

      My first job was a waitress. I can’t recall what the minimum wage was for waitressing at that time. (It was also the only time I was a waitress. And I didn’t stay very long)

      I also worked concessions at a movie theatre, making $4.50/hr a whole $0.25 above minimum wage. :)

    31. College Career Counselor*

      Telemarketer for newspaper subscriptions for minimum wage (at the time $3.35/hr). We were eligible to get paid on a commission basis (which was better), but you had to make more than 8 sales per four hour shift. As I recall, I never made more than five, which only happened a few times.

    32. Tuckerman*

      Other than babysitting. I taught roller skating lessons to kids when I was 12. I did competitive roller skating ballroom dance (yes, it’s a thing!), and the roller rink let me in to group classes/free skate for free if I taught classes once a week for them. It was a great way to offset the cost of my hobby.

    33. Grey*

      I made $3.35 an hour at McDonald’s in 1987. I worked there until I had enough to buy my first car, a 1977 Cutlass Supreme for $500.

      Last summer, I bought another 10-year-old car in similar condition for $7,000. How’s that for inflation?

    35. Christy*

      Filing at my chiropractor’s office for something like $6/hour–close to minimum wage but slightly more. 2004ish?

    36. fposte*

      I worked at a library. I made $2+ an hour. (I believe it was under minimum wage even then, but it was some kind of under-16 “not a real job” exception.)

    38. Annie Mouse*

      I worked in a village shop and got about £4.50 an hour I think (it was over 10 years ago so I’m a little hazy!)

    39. Emlen*

      My dad managed a bowling alley throughout my childhood until when I turned 18. When my brother and I were 4 or 5, we got 25¢/pair for spraying and putting away rental bowling shoes. We pretty much grew up there, getting additional responsibilities and pay as we matured. By the time I was 14-15, I occasionally ran the place myself for short durations. I managed the alley’s largest league. I loved it.

      Illegal, totally, but my brother and I ended up with a work ethic and conscientiousness way past most of our peers.

    40. nonprofit manager*

      Babysitter from ages 13-16 or 17. Don’t remember my hourly rate. The last one I did was watching two boys all day during the summer. I was constantly breaking up their fights. The pay seemed like a lot when I accepted the work, but turned out to be not enough.

      Then first job as a non-babysitter was in a deli and I earned the minimum wage. This was in 1982 I think, so I don’t remember the amount. What I do remember is getting in trouble for clocking out when I was done working, say like at 9:15pm or 9:20pm, instead of at 9:00pm when the deli closed. Yep, I was supposed to finish cleaning up off the clock because there were times that the deli wasn’t busy and I wasn’t doing anything. Good times.

    41. Nan*

      Worked in a metallurgical lab in high school (my mom was the secretary/bookkeeper). I read test results every 2 hours for like 8 hours on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights. If I recall it paid $8-9 an hour which was pretty good in the mid 90s for a high school gig.

    43. AcidMeFlux*

      $2.00 an hour in 1972, working as a file clerk in my mom’s office (in a big city government job.) Yes, the cost of living was much lower then, even in Metropolis…..

    45. the gold digger*

      I started babysitting when I was 11 and I made 50 cents an hour.

      My first W4 job was as a lifeguard when I was 15. I made whatever minimum wage was in 1978 – $2.75 an hour? I was in tall cotton!

      1. Robbenmel*

        I was coming here to say the same thing…babysitting for .50 an hour, starting at age 13, in 1972. Next was a job at a five and dime store…don’t remember the hourly rate there. But my first job out of high school in 1977 was calling to set appointments for insulation salesmen, at $4.00 an hour…talk about rich! My friends were making $1.75 an hour at Six Flags.

    46. Mononymous*

      Subway restaurants (floating between two stores in the same town, under the same ownership), $6/hour, early ’00s.

    50. Raddest*

      A summer cleaning vacation rentals every Saturday. $80 a house.

      I only ever got one house per week because I was new, but the renters always cleaned the houses before they left. I’d spend maybe two hours singing along to whatever music I’d brought while I ‘cleaned’ an already-spotless house. It was AWESOME.

      Bonus: I got to keep whatever the renters had forgotten in the freezer. The whiskey and vodka went to my parents (I was underage and didn’t like them anyway) but I feasted on ice cream about every other week.

    52. KAZ2Y5*

      I worked in a shop that sold stationary, china, fish and model cars and rockets (small town). Minimum wage was $2.30 and I can’t image I made much more than that.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I have my hourly pay from my first job on the fish. You have to feed them. ($1.95. This is high stakes stuff.)

    54. FN2187*

      Babysitting — $3 an hour. This was 2003-2006, so I was definitely far below market rate.

      2008 – Hostess at an Applebees. I made $2.13/hour plus tipout to make minimum wage ($5.50 at the time in my state).

    56. Sadie Doyle*

      My very first job was park district youth softball umpire, but I can’t remember what it paid. $20 or 30/game, maybe? Enough that it was a lot of money to 14-year-old me. If I had known how mean some parents can be, I would have asked for more, heh.

    59. Qmatilda*

      FOH and BOH in a restaurant. I recall getting a raise to $6.05 slightly before I left. That was big money for me.

    60. Rivakonneva*

      First job: Candy Striper at a local hospital. Paid nothing. :)

      First paying job: cashier in fast food. Paid $3.15/hour, which was minimum wage at the time.

    61. Rache*

      I helped my mom’s friend run his silk screening business. $5/hour under the table – I was in 6th grade (early 80’s). Obviously total child labor and it was pretty much a sweat shop in the summer. :) First “official” job was Wendy’s in 1990, and I probably made minimum wage which was about $4/hour then.

    63. smokey*

      My very first day at my very first real job (meaning, I paid taxes) was at a Hallmark store in the mall on Black Friday. I had never in my life even left the house on Black Friday. It took me 45 mins to find a parking spot. It was insane, but it set such a standard for “work” for me that I’m really glad it happened that way. I can’t remember exactly but I’m pretty sure I made $6.00/hour when the minimum wage was $5.25.

    65. Really*

      Zayre (doesn’t exist any more, think KMart) 1.75/hour – 1972
      Although babysitter year before at 50 cents an hour.
      First non retail job – about $3/hr at government agency as a college co-op – 1974

    66. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      1998-salesperson at an accessory/fashion jewlery type store. $7.50/hr. I quit after only a couple of weeks when they told me I had to do ear piercing and overnight inventory on a school night. NOPE.

      If we are counting babysitting, then $10/hr, off an on 1992-2005.

    67. Beachlover*

      Cashier at Home improvement Center – 2.35 per hour (1978). This was a dime above min wage, cashiers started at more, because we handled money :)

      1. krysb*

        In 2006. Prior to that, I worked in a couple of factories, making $8.06/hr (2004) and $6.13 an hour (2005).

        (I now work in legal/tech and make a salary of over $40K.)

    69. Beachlover*

      Cashier at Home improvement Center – 2.35 per hour (1978). This was a dime above min wage, cashiers started at more, because we handled money :)

    70. Stephivist*

      Waitress, $3.25 + tips. It wasn’t a very busy restaurant, so it was an good weeknight if you walked out with $25 in your pocket after a 5-6 hour shift.

    71. Parenthetically*

      Worked in the kitchen and drove delivery at a pizza place. Made 6 something an hour. This would have been… summer of 2000?

    72. Erin*

      Clerical Assistant, 2004. $8.50 an hour at San Francisco minimum wage. I was 13 verging on 14. I’d hold that job (summer only) until 2007. It was friggin’ awesome! I got to take home old magazines and catalogues (great reading material) and I also learned how to fix a lot of things.

    73. Kittymommy*

      First legit job (meaning not being used as free labor at the law firm my mom worked at)? Interning at said law firm in high school. Minimum wage so probably $6 something an hour.

    74. Noah*

      Lifeguard, $5.15/hour when I started, it was 1999-2002. I loved it. So much fun, I worked with a great group of people, and we got to be outside most of the day.

    76. CheeryO*

      2003 or 2004, babysitting, $5/hour. First “real” job was Tim Hortons in 2006. I think I started at $7.05, which was a teeny bit above minimum wage. I started in the summer and worked 30 hours that first week and was over the moon when I got my first check – I thought I was absolutely rolling in it.

    77. Jen RO*

      Sales agent, trying to sell advertising space on a crappy website. The pay is not relevant for most readers because I’m not in the US.

    78. H.C.*

      In high school, I’ve done tutoring gigs that averaged out about $9-10/hour.

      But my first real job was barista-ing in college, and that was $7/hour + tips.

    79. youremindmeofthebabe*

      Water Country (most kids in our area get their first jobs at WC or Busch Gardens) Minimum wage was $4.25 in 1993, but I think I made a bit more than that at the time.

    80. Amy in HR*

      Grocery store bagger in 1990 for $5.25 an hour. I thought I was rich! I was also in high school and had no bills to pay. :-)

    82. Amadeo*

      McDonald’s. Whatever minimum wage was in 1996 – $4.75? Something stupid low. I hated it and fast food service will always be my last choice of desperation. I’ll fold clothes again at JCP first.

    83. Sarasaurus*

      Cashier at a grocery store. I think I made $7.25 an hour. I loved that job! All my friends worked there, too, so it was like paid social hour when the store was slow.

    85. Ama*

      I was a student assistant teacher at my dance school. Technically I got paid just above minimum wage (at the time this was 5.25, I think – late 1990s), although since the school also waived tuition for the assistants it was a pretty good deal.

    86. Awkward Interviewee*

      Gymnastics instructor at the local YMCA the last few years of high school. I made $6.60 an hour, which was pretty exciting given that minimum wage at the time was $5-something per hour.

    89. Felicia*

      $7.75 per hour as a Walmart cashier when I was in high school. That was adult minimum wage at the time (it’s like $4 higher now), and I was super excited, because I was a minor, but got more than the minimum wage for minors, which is always lower than adult minimum wage.

    90. Lemon Zinger*

      Lifeguard at the local pool. $7.25/hour. I stayed for three years and when I left, I was making $10/hour. It was a great first job!

    91. Merry and Bright*

      In the 1980s I had a Saturday job making sandwiches in a baker’s shop that had a cafe at the back. I was paid £10.00 a day. This was pre-minimum wage in the UK.

      It is also the only job I’ve been sacked from. (I spread the butter too thickly).

    92. Punkin*

      1973 – 11 years old – Sold newspapers (they called it street sales) to businesses after school. It was an afternoon 5-day-a-week small town paper. Basically just walked thru town and stopped at every business to see if they wanted a paper. Took me about 2 hours. I made 50% of what I sold (dime paper, so a nickel) plus tips. I usually sold 50-80 papers a day & taking home $7-10 a day (a lot of $ for 2 hours of work in 1973) was not unusual. When I shed my jacket and hat when the weather got warm & it became apparent that I was a paperGIRL, my tips REALLY went up. ;-)

      1. Punkin*

        OOOF! I worked at the Dairy Queen in my home town when I was about 14. Min wage was $2.10 an hour then. I got $1.10 an hour, plus paid full price for all meals. I worked close to 40 hours per week & would be lucky if I cleared $25 a week.

        They knew that I had to have a job and they took advantage of that point. What is worse, I was in the same class in school as the owners’ son.

    94. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      Not counting babysitting, I worked in food service for a theme park starting in 1992. I worked there for 3 summers and it was minimum wage that first summer which was 4.25 at the time. We did get raises each year that we were invited back and by the last summer I was up to 5.something, which I thought was great since the other people I knew in high school were just at minimum wage.

    95. Anon Anon Anon*

      Delivered newspapers. £4.35 a week.

      My first US job was when I was a senior in high school. I made $4.25 an hour.

    96. Sparkly Librarian*

      If we discount babysitting (which for me was largely informal and for the next-door neighbors), my first job was working at a candy store. It was a tiny shopfront, with only one employee on shift at a time, and it was right next door to a bar. I worked after school until closing (4 until 11). During my hiring, the manager informed me that “If the people from the bar get a little rowdy, just lock the door for a bit until the sidewalk clears out, then you can reopen.” This was at minimum wage, which I believe was $6.75/hr. And free samples.

    97. Pseudo-Fed*

      McDonald’s. $2.00/hour, which was minimum wage at the time. I took “Basic Crew Training” in order to get a 5-cent raise. Soon after that, the minimum wage went up 5 cents.

    99. RR*

      Opening boxes for a children’s book store. I got 25 cents per box to open, sort, and update inventory cards. Bonus: I got to take home any paperback book with the cover removed (technically a no-no, since they were supposed to be destroyed). I was an eleven-year-old bookworm and it was heaven.

    101. zora*

      Picking up trash in the neighborhood for the HOA, $5 for 1 hour a week (they were cheap). Also delivered the local newspaper for a while, that was also about $5 an hour I think.

    102. Frustrated Optimist*

      Travel Counselor at AAA – summer job in college, starting in 1984. The pay was minimum wage, which was $3.35/hour.

      First professional job (with a master’s degree): Non-profit social service agency. Annual salary: $19,200. This was in 1988.

    103. SCAnonibrarian*

      First real job was babysitting and housecleaning. I had actual references from the start at around 13, and CPR and lifeguarding certs as soon as I was old enough to qualify – I think at 15 or 16. I got $10 an hour for each kid, plus a flat fee of $20 for light cleaning after the kids were in bed and/or another flat fee of $40 to spend the night. I made BANK in our small rural area by being willing to stay the night.

      First job I actually got tax papers for was a work-share program in high school. I walked across the street to our local library and shelved books and created children’s book displays for the grand total of some school credit hours and $3 an hour from the library. I didn’t have to get paid minimum wages because I was technically an intern or student worker of some sort. Thankfully I wasn’t doing that one for the money.

    104. Venus Supreme*

      My first job was working for the local newspaper for the “Teen Scene” section. It was 2007. I wrote music, tv, film, and theatre reviews and I was a featured story once! (It was a piece about remembering 9/11 and I interviewed a friend who had lost a family member). Reviews and smaller stories paid $15 a piece, and featured stories were $30 each.

    105. Forrest Rhodes*

      Printer’s devil—yes, that was the job title—in the in-house printing department of one of the state’s largest (at the time) banks, 40 hours/week, $324/month (about $2/hour), 1962. I started the job five days after my high-school graduation, and I felt like the richest woman in the world.
      (I submit this with some fear of possible “Good grief, it’s a dinosaur!” reactions, but … oh, well!)

        1. Forrest Rhodes*

          Yeah, thanks, Olympias, I’m still a big print-shop fan too. That job gave me the greatest possible introduction ever to the world of work—in addition to becoming part of a team that ranged widely in age, experience, and gender, I got to learn the entire printing process—from creating the original document, to photographing and masking it and burning the metal plate, to using the metal plate on the printing press (a Multilith 1250, if that means anything) to create the final product. I still love the smell of printer’s ink! Happy to know I’m not alone.

    108. Elizabeth West*

      I worked in the hospital cafeteria one summer when I was sixteen. Not only was I nowhere near ready to be working, but I hated it and ended up quitting abruptly. I think I made minimum wage.

    109. A Teacher*

      Babysitting for $20 for 4 hours (age 12-15)
      Easter Seals summer teachers aide 7.12/hour age 15.

      That was almost 20 years ago for Easter Seals, I feel old.

    110. Karen K*

      Besides babysitting? Waiting tables at a Howard Johnson’s. $1.15 per hour plus tips (1975). This job put me through college.

      1. Mimmy*

        Correction on above – I started the job in 1997 and worked there for 2 years.

        I just remembered – my first regular paying job was as a church rectory receptionist, primarily to answer the phone or door. This was in 1988-1989, while I was in high school.

    112. Sophia Brooks*

      I was 15 and a cashier at a grocery store for minimum wage $3.35/hour- it was probably 1990. I remember minimum going up to $3.75. I actually stayed all the way through high school ond college, so about 6 years, and I ended up making maybe $7.00 when I left. Maybe $6.00

    113. Whats In A Name*

      My first under the table job? Scooping ice cream at a local antique shop for $20 a day.

      My first job where I got an actual paycheck? Part-time receptionist at our tiny hometown Honda Dealer. I made minimum wage – which I think at the time was either $5 or $5.25 an hour.

    114. Witty Nickname*

      I worked for a department store during the holiday season when I was 14 (1993). I started on Black Friday and worked every Saturday from then until Christmas – they put me in women’s wear, which means I folded a LOT of turtlenecks and hung up a lot of windbreakers. I was mostly there to help keep the department neat and assist the cashiers so they could handle the non stop lines of people waiting to purchase their items. I still hate turtlenecks and folding turtlenecks and thinking about all the people who just walk up to a table of turtlenecks while someone is standing there folding them, pick one up, and drop it back down unfolded without even looking at it.

      I made $4.25 per hour, which was minimum wage at that time.

    115. Piano Girl*

      Unofficial job – cleaned house for my cousin (my piano teacher). W-2 Job – worked at the local theatre doing concessions. I want to say I made $1 an hour. I was probably 14 when I started back in 1973/74.

    116. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Delivered groceries or helped carry groceries back to someone’s home from a neighborhood grocery store. Tips. (I was really young, looking at the law now, it probably wasn’t legal, but I always was trying to come up w/ pocket money as I didn’t get an allowance unlike literally everyone else I knew.)

      First “real” job, worked on a union newspaper when in high school, started with proofreading, got assigned to write historical pieces, then got to learn a very little bit about reporting on outcomes of court cases potentially affecting the membership. Paid $11 an hour in the early 1980’s, I thought I was amazingly well-paid and was very grateful. The experience was fascinating, too. I was there during the transition from waxing the layout to computers.

    118. Jean*

      I’m pretty sure it was in 1976 or 77, I was working at a local amusement park serving BBQ for I want to say around $2.65 but I may be misremembering that.

    120. Gaia*

      I worked as an appointment setter for a carpet cleaning company. I sat at a grey colored conference table with a 1980s style phone and copied pages from the phone book. I’d call each person and tell them who I was and that we had a special we’d like to discuss with them. If they were open to it, I’d set an appointment for someone to come to their home and pitch carpet cleaning to them. If I didn’t set at least 20 appointments in one week, I didn’t work the next week (as punishment). I only lasted one week. It paid $6.25 an hour and all the free red licorice I could eat. I was 15 and one of 4 workers. I hated it. I did a lot of jobs like that when I was young.

    121. Rob Lowe can't read*

      Exhibit facilitator at a small museum. I started working there in 2002, when I was 16, and I think I made $7 per hour. It might have been $7.25, I can’t remember.

      1. hermit crab*

        High-five for museums! I worked in visitor services at a local museum, starting the summer when I was 15. I made $6/hr. (This was back when 10-10-321 ads were still a thing. I really enjoyed telling people that I made “10 cents a minute, and 10 cents a minute after that!”)

    122. Wirving*

      Conducting surveys for my uni’s social research lab. $7.50 per hour, then raised to $8.00 after 3 months.

    125. De Minimis*

      Dishwasher, 3.35 an hour [minimum wage back in 1989.] Was fired due to lack of speed about a month after I started.

    127. Honeybee*

      I worked as a program assistant in my college’s office that managed nontraditional students. I made $6.00 an hour, which was something like 75 cents above minimum wage at the time.

    128. Kj*

      I worked a half day summer camp when I was 13. This would have been 2000. I was paid about $100/week, which was great money back then.

      I also pet sit around that time and could be paid A LOT for very little work. After all, I had to walk the family dog anyways. I would make about $100 week for very little effort.

    129. Drago cucina*

      Babysitting in high school I made $0.50 an hour. When I joined the Army in ’76 I was made $288 a month. I remember after a couple of years I was earning $400 and I was putting $125 every month into savings. I had a car, shared an apartment, and paid for my own food.

    130. MommaCat*

      I worked as a student carpenter for a college theater and made a $500 stipend for the whole summer. Pretty good considering I only had two classes of technical theatre under my belt and no prior carpentry experience…

    131. Johnster*

      I worked as an auto wrecker at a recyling center. $2.50 an hour (1975). We had to remove the seats (or just the seat cushions) and gas tanks from old cars before they were crushed and then hauled away to be ground up and melted down for scrap metal.

    132. Anony Mouse*

      Camp counselor, $200 for the whole summer, paid at the end of camp. IIRC the boys hauling coolers and such got $300 for the summer.

    133. Yeah, right*

      Donut shop & also Target (while still at high school), I was 15. Can’t remember how much I was paid, but it wouldn’t have been much! Probably just a couple of dollars an hour. It was 1976. My first full time job at 18 (insurance broker clerk) paid A$99 (net) a week. I thought it was a lot of money!

  9. dress code question*

    Happy Friday everyone. I’m posting because I want to seek input on the dress code at my work and whether it’s normal and I’m out of touch or it’s the other way around. In the employee handbook the dress code is labeled as business casual. Things like khakis or black jeans are acceptable as are golf shirts. Some people wear shorts sleeved collared dress shirts but no one wears a tie or a blazer. Cardigans and fleece sweaters without logos are allowed under the dress code. Sometimes people wear dress pants or women wear dressy or sleeveless blouses. The only rule for shoes is no sandals or open toes.

    I started working here 7 months ago. Some of my coworker’s wear dresses and skirts sometimes. I always wore pants but I bought a couple of new dresses this weekend and I wore one to work this week. However I got sent home because the dress code says that dresses and skirts must touch or go to the kneecaps when the employee is standing and cannot be any shorter. My dress was far from a mini dress but I still was sent home to change. I didn’t get docked or written up because it was my “first offense”. People here have visible tattoos and piercings. I have never seen dresses or skirts that were meant for work that are long enough to fit the code. I do get that it was my mistake for not reading the code more closely and I’m not going to do it again but I think this part of the code is way out of touch. The rest of this week I paid attention to other women on the train and in my building and not one had a skirt or dress that went to the knee, even though they still looked professional. Am I really that out of touch with things? I appreciate any feedback on this.

    1. RKB*

      I know for my work the rule is that the back of your dress must be two inches past your fingertips. (With your hands hanging down of course)

    2. Dawn*

      To me, that’s not only ridiculously out of touch and infantilizing it’s also sexist. So if you show an inch of thigh above the knee… bad things will happen? Suddenly all the men in the office will be too busy staring at your knees to do their work?

      1. Chriama*

        I don’t think it’s necessary to jump to sexist. They have a dress code, and knee length isn’t all that long. Maybe it’s a little conservative, but they’re not mandating pantyhose and makeup so I personally would save my outrage for something else.

        1. Jadelyn*

          So, you go ahead and save your outrage, and Dawn can go ahead and spend some of her outrage on this issue, and everyone’s happy!

      2. dress code question*

        To be fair it applies to men who wear dresses and skirts as well (and I do have a male coworker who wears them sometimes). Shorts are also allowed under the dress code from Memorial Day to Labor Day for both women and men, and they have to go to the knees as well. So men in a skirt, dress or shorts can’t show thighs either.

    4. NK*

      I agree with you that it’s unusual/conservative, given the other context around the dress code. I would guess that if it’s a workplace that enforces their dress code (which it sounds like it is), they found that touching the knees was more of a bright line than, for instance, inches above the knees, mid-thigh, etc.

      1. Chriama*

        Yup, that’s my assumption. It’s easier to do that than tell employees to stand straight with their hands by their sides and check where the fingertips of their middle fingers fall. I don’t think a dress code needs to be that explicit anyways (just say modest/work-appropriate and leave it to common sense and manager discretion) but it sounds like they’re pretty explicit about other stuff too so this isn’t so out of line with that.

        1. alter_ego*

          I’ve always loved that fingertip rule because I am very short, with a normal sized torso and short arms. Standing straight, my fingertips land above the bottom of my butt cheeks.

          I’ve always thought that if a rule must be made, inches above the knee is probably a better metric to go by.

          1. Manders*

            Same here. I always assumed that those rules were made by people who don’t know much about female anatomy, or were only thinking about their own anatomy. An exactly fingertip-length skirt would definitely not look professional on me, and I’d probably have to shop in the junior’s section to find one.

          2. Chriama*

            Yeah, I agree. But with the fingertip rule you’re not touching the person you’re inspecting, and since it originated in schools (I assume) that’s probably safer for them. All it takes is one irate parent…

          4. Jean*

            Yeah, if I wore a skirt that came only to the end of my fingers, I’d be wearing something to my upper thighs. Short arms here too.

    5. Chriama*

      I don’t think you’re out of touch. I never wear anything longer than an inch or 2 above the tops of my knees because I’m short and it makes me feel like I look even shorted when I do that. However, if your dress code says something different and everyone else is following it then I wouldn’t fight this. If you want to try again maybe try the dress with thick tights/leggings — but if there’s a risk you’ll be written up then I’d ask first or not do it at all.

      1. dress code question*

        I would be sent home without pay and written up. The dress code doesn’t mandate tights or hose and bare legs are allowed, but no matter what skirts and dresses must go to the knee. I was wearing leggings when I got sent home to change and my dress was only 2 or 3 inches above my knee.

        I don’t plan on fighting it or doing it again but I do think this part of the code is out of touch. Even the suits I’m seeing online don’t have skirts that go to the knee.

        1. Sled dog mama*

          I feel your pain. My new job has a dress code that mandates no leggings, so I asked is that no leggings period or no leggings as pants? It’s none period. I was floored, I mean I get no leggings as pants but it’s cold in the winter and I can’t wear leggings under a skirt? Nope, dress code says skirt = panty hose or tights so no skirts for me. I refuse to wear a garment like hose that does nothing but make a line around my middle when there is the much better option of leggings.

          1. SarahKay*

            I’m curious – why do tights make a line around your middle, and not leggings? Or is it that both do, but you hate tights? Which is cool, if so, I’m just genuinely interested as I love my thick winter wool tights on cold days, but I’m not a huge fan of leggings. Although I do wonder if your workplace would rule my tights out as looking too much like leggings.

            1. NaoNao*

              Probably because leggings have a thicker waistband that is less intense elastic as tights, and also tights/hose tend to end at the exact waist, with no or little wiggle room (ie, if they’re lower, they sag/feel uncomfortable). Leggings can often be worn lower/higher without the same negative result.

              1. SarahKay*

                Sorry for coming back so late, but thanks for the explanation, that makes sense.
                I admit I only really took to tights and pantyhose after M&S (UK clothing store) started making them with some extra elastic/lycra (or whatever is used to make them grip rather than sag) woven into the top thigh and body section, so they didn’t sag around the crotch area.

          2. Leena Wants Cake*

            Assuming your footwear covered you at least up to the ankle (like boots), how would they ever be able to tell the difference between leggings and fleece-lined winter tights? I love wearing leggings under boots (for the “tights” look) in winter–because I agree with you that tights are way less comfy (and warm).

          3. Marcela*

            I really wonder… how would they know? Are they honestly ask me to take off my knee high boots or look under my skirt to see I’m wearing leggings every day, because tights are so uncomfortable? Really?

          4. Whats In A Name*

            The company I am working with has the same policy.

            It had to be changed no leggings explicitly for one reason: Jane would wear leggings as pants & then go to HR saying “but Susie wore leggings last week” when she got in trouble. After it happened a couple dozen times (not exaggerating) they went to a strict no leggings policy at the request of management.
            Sometimes it’s a time suck because people can’t exercise discretion.

              1. Whats In A Name*

                HR doesn’t get involved at that level of individual dress.

                That is management’s responsibility and after management said “Susie wore something” 24 times they had to make a change. Losing a few hours of productivity because someone has to go home and change it affects business outcomes and so the policy changed. Which is a shame but I get it.

        2. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

          Yikes, I’m short. 3″ above my knee would be inappropriate on me, especially once I sat down and it rode up to expose my entire thigh. I’m sure someone with longer legs would be just fine.

          However, knee length was the dress code requirement at every place I’ve worked that had a written dress code.

    6. Lady Blerd*

      Some places have old fashion rules. Where I work, the rule for dresses and skirts is that they can’t be more then a couple inches above the knees and they can’t reveal too much thigh when you sit down and I have worn much shorter skirts albeit with opaque tights. And wearing jeans’s toleration depending on who the boss is. So like many work disciplinary rules, their enforcement depends who who’s in charge.

    7. Claudia M.*

      For every job I have worked, both entry level and management, this has been the normal.

      Hems at or below fingertips, or at or below the knee, typically.

      Goes for shorts, skirts, and dresses.

      Having seen places without the code, I am VERY grateful for it…

    8. Faith*

      That is a bit ridiculous. I’ve worked in very conservative environments, and I’ve work suits where my skirt did not touch my knee cap. I always thought that the rule of thumb was 2 fingers (approx. 1 inch) from the top of your knee. A skirt that actually hits mid-knee or below can be such an awkward length too – it tends to make your legs look cut-off and stumpy on too many body types.

    9. Spoonie*

      My company’s dress code is simply “business casual, no denim except Fridays. No tshirts ever”.

      Generally, the clothing vibe here trends toward the more formal end of business casual (with some outliers). However, I have seen some female coworkers wear some skirts/dresses with hem lengths that are quite questionable and seem more appropriate for a night out than the office.

    10. fposte*

      I do think it’s out of touch–however, there’s a lot of midi stuff back on trend, so it’s not impossible.

    11. Sunflower*

      Yikes! I would 100% talk to someone(HR?) and see if this guideline can be adjusted. There are plenty of skirts/dresses that hit above the knee that are entirely appropriate. I’m just shy of 5’2 and all of my skirts need to be an inch above the knee or I look absolutely stumpy. Winter I could probably pass with wearing pants everyday but in the summer, its just too hot. And I’m not getting rid of/refusing to wear a bunch of clothes which are absolutely appropriate.

    12. Manders*

      Ugh, that’s frustrating.

      I’ve found that some pencil skirts tend to be long enough to cover the knees when you stand, although I’m only 5 feet tall, so everything’s long on me. You may also want to try looking for “tea length” dresses, which fall just below the knees or to the mid calf when you stand.

      But you’re right, most professional dresses are cut so the hem falls at the knee or a bit above it, depending on your height. Which is part of why I dislike the X part of the clothing item must touch Y body part rule for women’s attire–with so much variety in height, hip size, and waist size, it’s hard enough to find professional clothes that fit right without adding more arbitrary rules.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Seriously – I’m tall and most of my height is in my legs (I’m 5’8, but I could stand next to my father, who’s 6′ even, and our hips were at the same level), so skirts and dresses are literally NEVER actually knee-length on me, no matter how hard they try. It’s not my fault my thighs are a good few inches longer than most people’s and thus clothing designers don’t make things that reach my knees!

    13. Lee*

      I keep going back to that show “Ally McBeal”, where all she did was prance around in mini-skirts and it did look inappropriate, so I can understand the need to create a rule about dress/skirt length .
      It can get very uncomfortable in professional settings and your employers may be trying to avoid that by creating a generalized rule about it.
      Also, wouldn’t most pencil skirts or maxi-dresses be at a length that complies with your employer’s rules?

      1. Elizabeth H.*

        Maxi dresses are virtually never work appropriate. I can’t remember seeing one that is. Most pencil skirts are, but a lot of the workwear dresses I can think of go to above or to the knee.

    14. Helena*

      The dress code at my current job is “everything from the middle of your thigh to an inch below your collar bone must be covered with clothing, and no see-through clothing or anything with offensive logos, photos or profanity”. That’s it. You can wear shorts and flip-flops every day. You can wear most tank tops. You can have a purple and green mohawk and be covered in tattoos. You can wear a strapless dress that goes to mid-thigh. As long as your torso/middle is covered up you are fine. It is the most casual place I have ever worked. We still get people who violate the rules. Your code is more strict than mine but it still sounds fairly casual and it’s probably easier for them to enforce the knees rule for everyone equally, since you say it applies to both men and women in skirts, dresses and shorts.

    15. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      Ugghhh… I hate this specific rule. Its so dependent on height. I’m fairly tall female with particularly long legs and it is impossible for me to find skirts/dresses that go to the knee. Unless I buy “tea length”, which is knee length on me. Even pencil skirts meant to hit just below the knee tend to hit me an inch or two above the knee. I used to go to a regligious school that had this rule, and this dress code rule was a particular issue when I hit my growth spurt in 7th grade.

      I have no problem with banning “mini-skirts” or even using finger tips as a marker (I’m sure some people have different proportions, but it does seem a bit more fair to the tall women out there).

      Also – I work in a generally conservative industry (including a year or two spent temping so I’ve seen a lot of offices) and have never heard of a “knee-length” rule in a work environment.

    17. Parenthetically*

      Wow, this is wild to me. I work in what I’d call a VERY conservative environment (small private school with students who wear pretty sharp uniforms) and I have plenty of skirts and dresses that hit a good 4 or 5 inches above my knees. I wear them with tights most of the time, but my boss is really good about assuming that we are adults and can dress professionally without him having to nag at us or send us home to change (!!!). Our only rules are “dress appropriately for a professional environment” and “no jeans.” I’ve never seen a colleague in something inappropriate.

      1. Gaia*

        This is so interesting to me. When I picture 4 or 5 inches above the knee I picture a mini skirt and in no way can I wrap my mind around that being work appropriate.

        I wonder if this is regionally contextual?

        1. TL -*

          4 or 5 inches above my knee is still hitting midthigh or a bit lower and I’m on the short side. Especially with tights, it does not look inappropriate.

        2. Parenthetically*

          4-5″ above my knees is below mid-thigh! And it’s on the border of the midwest and south.

    18. CheeryO*

      That seems a little conservative (and no open toes is also a bit conservative), but I wouldn’t necessarily call it out of touch. It’s an easy line to draw – an inch above the knee might be more flattering and easier to find, but then you have to split hairs over what an inch is, exactly, without busting out a ruler. The fingertip rule doesn’t really work since everyone has different proportions – I have a super long torso and regular length arms, and my fingertips barely come to the bottom of my butt.

      I would either avoid skirts/dresses or go the midi/maxi route. You could also buy long and get them hemmed to the knee, but that’s a lot of effort and expense for a job that you may or may not be in long-term.

      1. CheeryO*

        I should mention that I’m in the engineering field on the east coast, so my “normal” probably skews conservative…

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Speaking as someone who has ripped out her big toenail twice while vacuuming the house barefoot, I understand the no open toe rule. For a little thing it reeeally hurts and it takes forever to get a new nail. Right, I had to do this twice before I learned.

    19. Leena Wants Cake*

      This thread makes me want to hear about sneaky dress code rebellion stories: the things they do to get around overly stringent dress code regulations (or ways they follow the letter of the code while violating the spirit of the code).

      1. Manders*

        Oooh, that would be a fun thread. From my private school days:
        – Coloring in the lines of your plaid skirt with highlighters and sharpies
        – Wearing combat boots (never actually prohibited by the dress code, I guess because no one had thought middle school girls would wear them)
        – Carrying weird accessories/piling on massive numbers of accessories to telegraph status. I remember fish-shaped pencil cases and prayer bead bracelets being all the rage.
        – Walking riiiiiiiight up to the line of natural hair colors with that “red” dye that’s really purple
        – Learning to crook your arms in a specific way so your fingertips were anywhere you wanted them to be
        – Sitting cross-legged or splay-legged in skirts so your bike shorts showed–unladylike, but not actually against the dress code
        – Taking off your elastic tie and flicking it at your friends in assembly

        Now I’m an adult and I actually have to dress to impress, but I’ll cop to some sneaky casual cosplay.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Scotch tape is a wonderful thing. You tape your hem up where you would like it. When you know it is time to line up to get your hemline measured, you take the tape off before the nun gets to you with her ruler. Presto. You pass inspection. And you have more tape in your handbag.

      3. Kj*

        Rolling skirt hems was a big one. Also the assessories! There weren’t rules about jewelry once you got to high school, so you could wear a big old necklace. One a free dress day, one of my friends got away with a marijuana leaf t shirt. It was very subtle and tasteful and I was in awe.

        My rebellions tended to be less in dress than in action though, so I’m likely missing some of my peer’s rebellions here. I tended to dress the angel statue in the courtyard for rebellion instead of dressing myself. The angel was a gang member, construction worker and santa, plus many others over the course of my senior year. Strangely enough, they never stopped me. Although I think the only one that knew it was me was my chemistry teacher who was an atheist so she was amused, not offended. But they never took the costumes off the angel and I caught the nuns laughing about it once, so…..

  10. Forged Initials*

    As part of my job, project managers submit to me close out documents for projects and an invoice. I make sure that the documents are accurate and complete and then I initial the invoice which then goes to the accountant to be paid. Recently one of the PMs forged my initials on the invoice and gave it directly to the accountant. The accountant asked if I had initialed it since she noticed the handwriting was different. I said no. She said ok. As far as I know she told the PM’s boss that this had happened. I know it’s not the same as forging a check or something, but should I escalate this to HR or legal? I personally find that this is completely inappropriate and unethical. Thoughts?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Do you think the accountant maybe already did? Or will be watching that PM’s closely. She seems to have noticed is and is on the ball. Definitely not cool.

    2. ArtK*

      I’d talk to the accountant and ask how she is handling it. This really should be brought up to the PM’s boss by one or both of you. It is extremely unethical. Frankly, that little thing would be enough to trigger an audit of some of the PM’s previous projects.

      1. Forged Initials*

        I think the PM’s boss was made aware of it, but should I file a formal complaint or something? I don’t know necessarily how boss handled it, she seems pretty nonchalant about most things.

        1. Jessesgirl72*

          I think you should tell your boss and ask how they would like you to handle it. Tell them the accountant alerted her boss.

        2. Observer*

          You should NOT be talking to legal. The people who you should be notifying are your boss and the PM’s boss. Make sure you put it in email (and bcc yourself) so it’s clear that you did your part to make sure that the relevant people know what’s up. After that it’s not your issue.

          The only other thing I would say is that you should give extra scrutiny to anything this PM gives you, since you now *know* that she is liable to provide false documentation.

    3. Sadsack*

      Why not ask the accountant if she brought the matter to anyone’s attention? I think I would at the very least tell my own manager about it. This seems like a big deal to me. Don’t be afraid, you are not doing anything wrong.

    4. Jadelyn*

      It’s absolutely not appropriate. Have you spoken to your own manager about this and gotten their input?

    6. Chriama*

      > I know it’s not the same as forging a check or something, but should I escalate this to HR or legal?

      Yes it is. This is how fraud happens. This is a firing offense.

    7. Ama*

      I’m curious about what the invoice was for — was the PM actually trying to hide an expense you might have questioned or were they just trying to save time on an routine expense you always sign off on? The former is cause for serious concern, the latter might just be a misconception about why there are financial checks and balances.

      I’ve been in two separate jobs where people got away with misusing funds for years so I definitely take stuff like this seriously, but I’ve also run into coworkers who would never in a million years engage in financial misconduct get really huffy about financial approval levels that they see as a “waste of time” or an insult to their integrity.

      1. Forged Initials*

        The invoice was a final payment for a contractor. It’s usually a small amount, but it’s not supposed to get paid until all close out materials are received and approved. I think the PM just wanted to pay it since there are often problems that need correcting and can take a while to get resolved, which is part of the responsibility of managing a project.

      2. Mephyle*

        If it was low-stakes, it might be a misconception as you say. Or it might be a test run on the part of the forger – if challenged they could claim some defense like “just trying to save time, no harm done”, and if not challenged they could aim higher next time.
        So it’s a cause for serious concern either way.

      3. Observer*

        It’s cause for serious concern in any case. For one thing, Mephyle has a good point. For another, people who won’t follow procedure on stuff like this normalize the failure to follow procedure and make is very hard to spot genuine wrongdoing.

        This case is much worse, though, because the person actually forged a signature! This was NOT a case of “Oh, this is just a routine thing that always gets approved anyway, so I’ll just ask forgiveness rather than ask permission.” This was a case of someone who KNOWS what the procedure was and LIED about what she had done – implicating someone else in the process.

        The OP’s explanation makes it pretty clear that the person was lying not just to skip one annoying possible bottleneck, but to avoid having to do HER job, includes making sure that all of requirements have been met. Frankly, if I were that person’s boss I would be having a VERY. SERIOUS. TALK. I’d also be launching an audit of any work that person had signed off on, and talking to HR about next steps.

      4. Not So NewReader*

        I agree with Ama’s last paragraph. Bare bones minimum I would say something to the PM to the effect of “do not do this ever again”. I’d ask for a photocopy of the forgery and stash it at home, just in case.

        More than likely I would report it, in writing. This could be testing the waters. It could be a one time occurrence but no way to know. Meanwhile it is my professional rep at stake. No way would this go by me.

  11. Collie*

    I have a problem with self-sabotage in interviews. I’ll say things that inner-me knows is at best risky and at worst just plain stupid in the moment. I think it’s because I never really feel like I deserve the job, regardless of what it is. Intellectually, I know that’s not true, but obviously parts of me are at odds and the stupid one wins consistently in interviews. Self-talking myself into believe I deserve it isn’t really helping. How have others handled this?

    1. Undine*

      I would recommend practice interviews. You’re feeling nervous and under pressure. Just like sports, the more times you can do it right, the more likely the learned behavior will kick in, instead of the bad one.

    2. emma*

      If you’re able to afford it, I’d recommend counseling, since you seem to understand the problem, but seem stuck. Counseling helps me when I’m stuck on a problem- I kind of view it as an as-needed thing.

      1. Collie*

        Interesting idea. I’ve been looking into therapy for other issues, as well, so I’ll add this as another reason to go. Thanks. :)

    3. Marisol*

      I do EFT tapping for issues I feel insecure about, in particular I do this for people I feel insecure around, and it has helped me enormously. Google EFT tapping for instructions. Good luck!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I’d add self-care to the list also. A tired mind/body can make all kinds of poor choices. Ever deal with a tired kid or pup? Same idea, this very normal sweet being becomes a pile of randomness. If you can add consistency to your life in different ways, such as self-care, it might be easier to be consistent on interviews also.

  12. katamia*

    And another one–I’m inquisitive today. I’ve been trying to figure out which of my non-native languages I can comfortably list on my resume, but I’m really struggling with how vague the concept of fluency is overall and trying to figure out which languages I’d really be comfortable working in. Does anyone have any suggestions on things I should be able to do in the workplace or things to keep in mind when evaluating whether or not to list a language? I know some languages have official tests you can take to determine your fluency (e.g., French and Japanese), but my best non-native language doesn’t have a test or any other objective method to determine rough fluency levels.

      1. SophieChotek*

        I would agree. And depending on the industry, you probably also need to know correct industry-specifi terms in that language. Also there may be levels for spoken vs. written vs. reading vs. translating. Business where I work, the people who claim multiple languages are regularly called on to translate from one language to another (often daily, sometimes even from one language to another to another — like the documents needs to be produced in Chinese/French/English), be able to provide real-time translation at press conferences/industry events, and correspond with customers/clients in said language.

        If it’s just enough to get around town, it’s probably not fluency.

        Just my two cents…

      2. Gandalf the Nude*

        Yeah, and fluency in general is a little different than fluency in a business context. I could speak fluent Spanish, but really struggled with using it in a business context.

        1. katamia*

          This is what I’m struggling with. I’ve been working mostly from home as a freelancer for the last few years (so I’m out of touch), and even if I hadn’t been, the jobs I’m applying for are in different fields, ones where I don’t know exactly what will be required in a business context. But I also don’t want to sell myself short if it turns out that my language skills are good enough, either.

          1. AnotherAnon*

            It might help to have a look at the way language skills are categorised on the CEFR? It’s fairly detailed, so it can give you a decent idea of around which level you are. I believe B2 level (some say B1) is considered “fluent” enough to work in (although I doubt it’d be considered sufficient for fields that need highly technical language skills – like translating, interpreting, etc.)

          2. TL -*

            You can put Conversational Language – if your Klingon is good enough to call and set up a videoconference, for instance, but not good enough to have a detailed conversation about proper security protocol on the Enterprise, I think Conversational would cover that.

          3. Gandalf the Nude*

            Well, I think maybe the most important thing to consider when trying to decide whether to list a language is actually whether you want to work in that language. It might make you more marketable to positions you’re not actually interested in. (The real struggle of job searching with a foreign language degree without wanting to use it at work!)

            But if you’re committed to working in that language, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with listing yourself as fluent as long as you are later upfront that you would need to brush up the specific vocab that goes with that industry. And if you know the industry and are committed enough to the interview process or interested enough in the job, start studying up that particular lingo.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I once heard someone say “You aren’t fluent in any language unless you grew up speaking it. You can be ‘highly proficient’ in a language, but not fluent.”

      While I don’t 100% agree, I think the spirit of the statement is important. If you can conduct your field’s business in another language, I would say that you are fluent.

      1. Mephyle*

        It sounds as though they were using the word ‘fluency’ to mean ‘native proficiency’. I don’t ascribe that meaning to ‘fluent’. I agree with your second paragraph. Actually, it doesn’t really matter what ‘fluent’ does or doesn’t mean. @katamia, you should list any languages on your CV that you would be able to do business in.

        If you’re not sure whether you could do business in your best language, and there is no formal test, my suggestion is that test yourself by reading some web pages about, say, current events (and about your industry, if relevant) in the language. Now turn away from the text and explain out loud everything you read. Pretend you are talking to a native speaker, an imaginary person, who is there with you.
        Try the same thing with a Youtube video in the language. Watch it – did you understand everything? – and then retell it to someone. Write an account of what you heard. Were you able to?

    3. SM*

      I wouldn’t say fluent unless you know the technical terms for your industry. Could you conduct a meeting in that language comfortably? Could you have a conversation with your boss about the technical details of a project in that language?

      If you’re not that level of fluency, but you can converse at a high level with native speakers, maybe you can include the languages and say “advanced” or “conversational” or something along those lines.

    4. ... & Vinegar*

      You should definitely include your language skills! What do you want a prospective employer to know about your skills, and what would you like to be able to do with those skills at work? Let those things determine how you present them.

      The guideline I was given for “fluency” is the ability to complete crossword puzzles in that language. The implication is that the cultural references are included makes this a really useful guideline. Having worked in a bilingual office, what mattered was the ability to talk about daily business, and to be able to write in “business” language, to be able to chat on the phone without any of the body language cues, and to be able to shift back and forth between languages.

      “Conversational” is a good descriptor if you’re happy to carry on conversations about daily life and general ideas.
      “Business” is a good descriptor if you can talk about business but not necessarily about daily life.
      “Translator” or “Interpreter” are very specific skills (and very different from each other).

      But definitely include them, you’ve got a lot more than most of us in the US.

    5. smthing*

      People acknowledge different proficiency levels. It might be useful to look at the US State Department levels (https://careers.state.gov/gateway/lang_prof_def.html) and see how they relate to your own. Even lower level proficiency can be an asset on a resume, as long as you are clear about what you can do. Just don’t represent yourself as fully proficient if you’re not, especially if it’s a job requirement.

  13. bassclefchick*

    I have a resume question. Several of you know I have made poor choices recently and have been fired from two jobs in the last 6 months. My last job that ended on a positive note ended in June. It was a temp position and the project came to its natural conclusion, so it doesn’t reflect poorly on me.

    My question is this. Which is worse on a resume? An almost year long gap of no employment or a smaller gap, but ending 2 jobs within a few months of each other? I’ve been leaving the last 2 jobs off. If I were to put either of them on the resume, I would only put the one that lasted 4 months. The other one I didn’t even make it through the probationary period.

    I’m just really concerned that hiring managers are looking at my resume (temp for 5 years, then either nothing or 2 short term jobs that should have lasted) and wondering why no one will hire me. I feel like I’m stuck and just don’t know what to do to fix the problem and get a good job I can stick with for the near future.

    1. NK*

      I would absolutely leave the two jobs off. A gap (especially less than a year), while not entirely ideal, is far better than having to explain a firing, let alone two. Rather than worrying about gaps, think about what jobs will add to or take away from your resume. If it’s a net negative, leave it off.

      1. Anna*

        Agree with NK. If they ask about the gap, is there something you can tell them that is true, but doesn’t go into the two jobs?

        1. NK*

          Since the last job she left on good terms was the temp job, I think “my temp job ended and I was looking for other work” would suffice.

    2. Creag an Tuire*

      I haven’t followed your “poor choices”, but can you phrase the gap as a “health issue, since resolved” without mentioning the two jobs during that period?

      (I’m assuming you HAVE resolved whatever issue was driving you to self-destruct, otherwise fix that first.)

      1. bassclefchick*

        The poor choice was to take a rebound job without doing due diligence into whether it would really be a good fit for me. The first job seemed to be going well and then suddenly I was told it wasn’t working out and they let me go. No warning at ALL. So, I panicked. Instead of taking my time and figuring out what the next step should be, I jumped at the first permanent position that came along. I have been reflecting on the choice I made and what I can do to be sure the next job I get will be stable and healthy for me.

        The second job was a disaster from the start. I knew I would be fired. But, I think it was a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy in that I was so panicked about being let go from the first job that I sabotaged myself in the second one.

        1. Creag an Tuire*

          Hmm… I think you’re beating yourself up too much, TBH — it sounds like the first job just turned out to be a crappy place that treats people crappily, and you wouldn’t have known that going in.

          Not sure about whether to put that on your resume — on the one hand, it might not be a great reference*, on the other hand, it’s a smaller gap and most people are allowed one “mulligan” after a decent job history (and the rest of your history is okay, leaving aside that it’s temping, right?)

          * Did they at least give you any details on what “wasn’t working out”? Like, was it a skills mismatch, or did they accuse you of browsing Facebook all day?

        2. writelhd*

          If it makes you feel better, my husband had pretty much the same experience you did with respect to the first job. I don’t have a happy ending to report yet either (still job searching) but he decided to leave the short term job off the resume.
          (And for anybody else thinking about working for a software tech startup where they hire a whole bunch of people at once who may not actually have software experience…proceed with CAUTION.) Although I think it would be perfectly fair to say that the job just wasn’t a good fit and you didn’t know that until you tried it.

  14. Anonymous Problem Solver*

    Lovely AAM readers. I’m contemplating exploring some new job opportunities, but I’m struggling to identify what kind of position is in line with my skill set.

    My greatest strength is problem solving. I can take a concept and work through the details to get a finished product. I’m basically a walking cost-benefit analysis. I’m also obsessed with process improvement. I am the annoying person who is always thinking “how could this be done better?”. I currently work in Finance but am not tied to the industry. I’m experiencing some frustration in my role as it doesn’t appear I’ll be a decision maker for at least 20+ years and I’m the kind of person who likes to at least have some partial ownership.

    Does anyone have any thoughts of what kinds of positions I can investigate?

    1. Dawn*

      Business Analyst, Research Analyst, or Project Manager. Since you like partial ownership, look into Project Management. You can get a PM certification on your own (will cost about $3K, at least where I live) and that will absolutely give you a leg up on getting hired.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      Chemical Engineer? You need the degree for it obviously. But you’re constantly tweaking and optimizing processes, and you get to actually make something instead of purely push numbers around.

    4. Kat*

      In addition to looking at positions, look closely at the culture for any company you’re interested in. I’m like you – I *need* to fix and improve process. I can’t help myself. I’ve been happiest at companies with flexible/flat hierarchies that value any contribution or idea regardless of the level of the employee. In organizations with stricter reporting lines and hierarchies, I’m frustrated and bored.

      If you have strong writing skills, look at technical writing – in particular software or process documentation. Or even requirements management! That field is all about identifying a need or problem and coming up with a solution.

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        This. Anything with finance will feed into that, strategy moreso than ops/process to start. I thought I would love to do ops and process improvement, but it quickly turned out that was not suited to my skills of sitting and thinking and picking a problem apart and testing ideas.

    6. Starts with Zed*

      Hello, are you me? I fell into accounting but then made the jump to project management at a company whose main focus is finance, and am very happy here. I will say that although there is overlap, project management is more people management and business analysis / systems analysis is more of an individual producer role, so consider which suits you better. (although you don’t need to decide now – a few people in my company have gone back & forth even at a senior level.)

      1. Associate Project Manager*

        Adding on to say: your city may have chapters of PMI (Project Management Institute) and IIBA (International Institute of Business Analysis) – they’ll have networking events and seminars to help you identify what might be a good fit for your background and talents. I have to say your comment below about having a Finance major/English minor might position you well for a BA role at my company (we’re not in the US though).

    7. Beachlover*

      Demand Planning – need skills in analyzing sales trends, inventory trends etc. Quality control – especially if you are process oriented. Many types of Operation positions require someone that can analyze workflow and processes. Posssibly a manufacturing Engineer. Once you have more of this kind of experience under your belt, look into consulting. Lots of smaller businesses need help developing processes when they start out.

    9. JCurtis*

      I’d second the Business Analysis recommendation. But ask good questions about influence, ownership and decision-making in interviews as the role can very dramatically from org to org. Another thing to look into would be Product Ownership for organizations who practice Agile – but this is probably something you’d have to work into.

    10. Government Worker*

      We have a business process reengineering group within our IT department and a more general performance office, both of which sounds like they might be good fits for you. We also have a few people outside those groups with titles that have words like “strategic initiatives” in them, which in practice means they can insert themselves into projects or initiate new projects agency-wide that seem like they need the kind of skills you describe.

      I’d search for job listings with keywords like “strategic initiatives,” “strategic planning,” “performance management,” “cost benefit analysis,” “systems analyst”, “systems engineering,” “business process reengineering,” and “business process improvement”. See what turns up and how it fits your interests and skills and go from there.

    11. SM*

      Project management. Try looking on job boards for it…There’s project managers in almost every industry. The problem is some of the industries require a lot of technical knowledge and years of experience in that industry to be able to manage a project (think engineering or construction), while other industries you could jump in with only the management skills and not need the technical ones because of the way projects are organized.

      1. Anonymous Problem Solver*

        Thank you all for these great ideas! My undergrad is in Finance but I minored in English. So I sometimes feel like it’s hard to find specific jobs that align with the blend of skills I have to offer!

        My dad recently transitioned from being a technical engineer to a project manager, so I think that may be in the genes. Or at least all the graphs at the dinner table helped shape me to think like one! Haha.

  15. The SIL*

    International relocation question!

    My sister-in-law, who currently lives in Europe, has accepted a job offer in a very large Midwestern city. My husband–her brother–and I live about three hours away from this city.

    As part of her offer, the company has told her they will pay for her airline ticket. She learned yesterday that they are planning to fly her out on a weekend…to start work on the following Tuesday. While she does have a furnished apartment lined up, three days of lead time doesn’t seem quite adequate to move to a new country, get in the right time zone, do basic things like shop for groceries and toiletries, AND dive into a new job.

    It appears that the ticket may have already been purchased. My suggestion to her, since she is now the owner of that ticket, would be to call the airline, pay the change fee, and arrange to fly into my town–three hours away–at least a week in advance. I had planned to take some days off from work, take her shopping, then load up the car and drive her to her new city and get her settled in.

    She’s concerned, though, that her new employer is going to…I don’t know…side-eye her for this? They had planned to pick her up from the airport, so they would definitely know she had changed her travel plans. I think she’s afraid to look ungrateful for their help in moving her. My opinion is, if she can change her travel plans in a way that doesn’t inconvenience her new employer–and in fact will make her a better employee during her first week, since she’ll have had time to get settled in–and since she’d bear the cost of changing the ticket herself, there’s no harm at all.

    What would you think if you were her employer, and what would you do in her situation?

    1. Dawn*

      If I were her, I’d just go back to whoever is coordinating the move and present it as a win-win for the company- “If it’s not too much trouble, can I fly into [town] on [date that’s a week earlier than planned]? I have family in that town and they are going to help me settle into my new apartment, which would mean I could dive straight into the new job already having set myself up in [town].” See what they say, and she could always offer to pay any fees to change the flight if they were hesitant for money reasons.

      As an employer, I’d be happy that she had found a way to get settled in before starting the new job- to me it shows that she’s already thinking about how to be the best employee she can be even before she sets foot in the building!

      2. MoinMoin*

        Agreed. If the company relocates people with any sort of frequency they likely have people coordinating the relocation -internally or through a relocation company- who wouldn’t bat an eye at this. I don’t think the hiring manager would side-eye the request anyway, but there’s a good chance she wouldn’t even be involved with it.

      3. Ama*

        I’ve had jobs where I purchased flights for new employees before and usually places that do this will have some kind of policy for how these requests are handled. They may or may not pay the change fee and they may or may not ask your sister to handle the change themselves, but they shouldn’t think the request itself is egregious.

    2. Jessie the First (or second)*

      Why doesn’t she just ask her employer? She can ask if they’d mind if she changed the ticket so that she can come in earlier to get set up and that she’s willing to pay the change fee. It doesn’t have to be done undercover of night as if there is a big problem. The company probably just wasn’t thinking through logistics of her move.

    3. SophieChotek*

      It’s surprising she didn’t get any say in the time, etc.
      I agree three days doesn’t seem like enough lead-time to move internationally
      i don’t think she should change without their knowledge — I think she’s should call and explain she’d like to change and move sooner for more time to settle in and be sure she’s ready to start new job, full rested, somewhat adjusted to move, etc.

      Depending on cost/type of ticket, it might be able to be changed without fees? or business will be willing to pay. (For instance, where my Dad works, they always buy full cost tickets that are fully refundable, can be changed, etc. specifically because things happen.)

    4. Lucy*

      I think she needs to be 100% straightforward about this, and that there isn’t much to lose by her taking this approach.

      “As you know, I’m moving from [place in Europe]; it’s a fairly significant move and the travel schedule you’ve suggested doesn’t give me a lot of time to get settled before starting my new role. I was wondering if it would be possible to [change the ticket to {your city} so that I can get some help from family with moving]/[some other reasonable change request – more time, different flight, etc.]. I would be happy to handle making the change with the airline myself, or I’m happy to let [however the company normally books travel] handle it – which would you prefer?”

      It’s presumptuous on their part to decide that three days is plenty for an inter-continental move, but this could be for all kinds of reasons (from “no one thought about it in any detail before booking the ticket” to “this is just how we work and you’re going to have to deal with that”). Asking could have a range of consequences depending on their motives (from “huh, we didn’t consider that” to “sorry but you’re just going to have to deal with that and now we think you’re difficult”) but I’d err on the side of assuming it’s thoughtlessness rather than malice. What your sister would be asking for is not unreasonable, so this is a good opportunity to find out how reasonable the new company is.

    5. Lindsey*

      I think she can absolutely talk to her employer, it’s a pretty reasonable request.

      On the other hand, I’ve moved internationally (cross-continents, same deal), landing on a Saturday and starting work the following Monday. It wasn’t bad. I actually appreciated it as it helped me with adjusting to time zones more quickly, and my colleagues were able to give me tips and tricks on all the moving things (best places to find groceries, etc.).

    6. fposte*

      I agree that she shouldn’t do this without checking first with the company. However, I’ll also note, in case money is relevant, that you don’t just pay the change fee–you have to pay the difference in fares, which can be substantial.

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        If she is flying on the same flights, just a week earlier, there might not be a difference in fare. But yes, she should be prepared for that possibility and her best bet would be to try to get the exact same flights and day of the week.

        1. fposte*

          It also depends how much closer to the date she is. While the fares might drop, it’s more common (IME) that they’ll go up, even if it’s the same flight and day.

          1. Jessesgirl72*

            It depends how close, yes, the fares might go up.

            OTOH, if she picks a less busy day (Tuesday instead of Monday, for instance) the fare could go down, even if it’s closer.

            I’m sure you’re aware of how to play the airlines’ game. :)

    8. Amarzing*

      I think I would tend towards the not-making-waves way of doing this, which it sounds like she does as well, which would be take them up on their offer, let them pick her up, etc. I’ve never moved internationally for a job but I have driven out the Friday before a job started on Monday (multiple times I’ve done this!), staying with a friend for a night or two, without even having found a place to live, and it went fine, a place was acquired, moved into, toiletries purchased, etc. Most jobs – while I totally support the idea of hitting the ground running – really aren’t at their most difficult for the first couple weeks and I would guess (hope?) they aren’t thinking about squeezing productivity out of her in her first week, they just set up this day for whatever reason (it was the cheapest, they didn’t want to presume she was free/not working/ready to leave the week before, etc) and completely expect and get that there may be utilities to set up, or conversations with coworkers about the best place to go to get this or that, etc, and it’s just part of the deal.

      If I were an employer, I don’t think I’d side-eye about how she wanted to set up her international move, although I am not currently in charge of anyone, so I definitely think is this is what she wants, just ask her contact about it, but ultimately I’d be careful to remember, this is her decision, let her do what she’s most comfortable with, and I think the weekend before is certainly doable if she’s okay with it.

      1. TL -*

        If she’s moving internationally, she’s unlikely to have a friend in the area. I’ve done the move you’ve done, but without the friends, and it’s a lot harder if you don’t know anyone, plus you can take a lot less in a plane than in a car. Much more reasonable to have a few days.

    9. LCL*

      With the time zone thing, she will be moving backwards in the day. She will feel like the walking dead for the first couple of days. So ask to change the flight date if possible, just because of the jet lag.

  16. Episkey*

    My husband & I have been trying to get pregnant for a little while and have been having some issues. I finally got pregnant this cycle, but had a miscarriage at the beginning of this week. I was still very early (only about 5.5 weeks along), but it hit me really hard. I had to leave work early the day it happened and then the next day, I started crying at work. I work as an assistant to a real estate agent & it’s just the 2 of us. My boss & I have a good relationship. She naturally wanted to know what was wrong but I was really struggling with whether I should tell her specifics, so I just said it was a family matter and I would be OK. She again asked what happened and I said I didn’t want to talk about it. I think she was a little hurt, actually.

    The next day we were talking and she brought up the subject of our annual review. She said she was giving me a raise and then went on to talk about how she had really leaned on me this past year (in 2016) because her mom had passed away and she was unavailable for some time. She started tearing up about her mom dying and then I lost it (again SIGH) and finally just told her everything that happened.

    She was really supportive and I expressed my concerns that she would worry about me coming back to work if I did get pregnant etc and that she might fire me and she said she never would do that. It did feel like a relief to tell her. I know this would be totally inappropriate in some offices, but we aren’t really a traditional workplace in the first place.

    I hope I didn’t make a mistake in telling her. If you are a manager and your direct report told you something like this, would it be OK?

    2. Dawn*

      I’d be honored that they felt comfortable enough with me as a manager that they’d share something so deeply personal. I’m so sorry for your loss, and I hope that you have tons of comfort as you are grieving your miscarriage.

    3. TCO*

      I’m sorry for your loss.

      If I were a manager I’d completely respect your telling me and wouldn’t punish you professionally. And regardless, it sounds like you knew that this was the right choice for YOUR job, and it worked out well for you.

    4. orchidsandtea*

      I’m very sorry for your loss. Please be kind to yourself — you’re experiencing a pretty intense hormone crash, even after 5.5 weeks, and you’ll likely be low-energy for a couple more weeks while your body does some repair work. Rest as much as you can, and take some vitamins to rebuild your stores. If you need any commiseration, advice, or support, I’ve found Reddit’s ttcafterloss to be very helpful.

      I told my boss, too. I needed a week off (I was 9 weeks along) and I also needed a lot of grace for…three months or so? It’s just really hard for a while, though it does get better. He was gracious and helpful.

    5. emma*

      Yes, I’d just want to support my employee. It sounds like your boss appreciates how you’ve covered for her during her family issues, and I’m sure she wants to return the favor (which she would hopefully do even if you hadn’t been covering for her).

      And as someone who had a miscarriage in July, I’m sorry. It sucks, and I hope your physical and emotional recovery goes well, and that you continue to have supportive people around you.

    7. Sunflower*

      I dare say…I think this happens more often than you think. Not this exactly but I think we all have lives outside of work and as best we try to keep our personal problems out of work, we do spend the majority of our time here and I think good managers realize that sometimes these things are going to cross.

      Also think about it like this- Did you think it was inappropriate that your boss teared up? No you didn’t. Sounds like you guys have a pretty good relationship. I’m so sorry for your loss- spend your energy taking care of yourself instead of beating yourself up over this.

    8. Jessesgirl72*

      First of all, I’m so sorry for your loss. It doesn’t matter how “early” it was, and you shouldn’t feel like you need to qualify it as such- it was still a loss of a much wanted baby.

      Yes. Telling or not telling was entirely up to you, and you would have been right either way.

      And also, she couldn’t legally fire you for getting pregnant, even if she wanted to, and most people do realize that. If you are ever working for someone who you really believe would fire you if they knew you were pregnant or trying to get pregnant, please seriously reconsider working for that person. That’s not normal or okay, and you (and everyone!) deserves better than that.

    9. Emi.*

      I’m so sorry for your loss! And if I were a manager, I would definitely think it was fine for you to talk about.

    10. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Yes. And also, I’d be actively glad that you’d told me so that we were able to get your worries about being fired out on the table and addressed so that you didn’t have to carry that worry around anymore.

    11. ExceptionToTheRule*

      Yes, but if you’d rather not tell me; I’d like to think I could be supportive of whatever you’re going through without invading your privacy.

    14. Gaia*

      I’d be glad you told me for two main reasons:

      1. I would be able to support you (although this can be done even if you don’t get into the details) with whatever accommodations are needed

      2. I would be able to give you some measure of comfort that you were not going to be fired. You don’t need one more thing to worry about and no decent (or even mediocre) manager would fire you for anything related to family planning.

  17. gwal*

    Hello,

    I thought about sending this to Alison but it’s time sensitive so I’m posting it in the comments instead (posted it too late to get anything from last week’s open thread) and I would love any insight you all could provide!

    I’m currently employed as a “teapot technical expert” (salary, benefits, retirement account) in a two-year career development program, which more often than not results in permanent employment for those individuals who complete the program.

    The way the program is structured requires a temporary appointment in a different segment of the organization. I’m wrapping up my temporary appointment (as a “teapot business analyst”, so a very different skill set) in one month, and today my temporary supervisor offered me the opportunity to complete the two year program in this analyst position. This does happen in the program, though I have never indicated to my home office that I might not return.

    I live in a city that is uniquely well suited to the analysis field, but I have graduate training in both the analysis field and the technical field. My supervisor in the original position recruited me from a very small technical-field firm where I had worked for only six months, but I had not enjoyed the work or the environment. I feel loyalty to this home-organization supervisor, but I enjoy the analysis work more than the technical work.

    My husband is also in a transitional job, searching for academic positions across the country. Both the technical field and the analysis field would provide me with skills and experience that are transferable to other locations.

    This situation has presented a conundrum! I can see arguments in favor of keeping the analyst position–it’s unique to the city we live in, and is somewhat high-visibility and very interesting. The technical position, on the other hand, is the reason I’m part of this program in the first place, and in the first twelve months I worked there I learned a lot and took on a good amount of responsibility–that segment of the organization is more than half “over 50” (based on an anonymous survey of >100 people, and I know at least 3 who will retire in the next 1-3 yrs in my section of the org), so as an early career professional I’m in line to take on a lot of projects within the same technical role (but official promotional opportunities in the two organizational segments are similar). It’s really tough to decide whether to stay or to go back, and I was hoping you could provide some insight into how these things would look on a resume, and whether it would be completely bridge-burning to leave the organizational segment that brought me on in the first place.

    1. Dawn*

      “I enjoy the analysis work more than the technical work”

      There’s your answer. Right now you’re in a good position where either way you go, there will be opportunities for you. However, in the technical track it seems like there’s some “if” attached to promotional opportunities- *if* those people retire and *if* the company decides to fill their positions and *if* they choose you to fill those positions. Also, you have said yourself that you like the analysis work more than the technical work, *and* it’s high visibility (cannot overstate how valuable this is in a position), *and* you find it interesting.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I don’t think you would be burning a bridge by not staying with the segment that hired you. The bigger question for me would be which direction you wanted your career to go, and which position is more likely to get you there. If you don’t go back to the technical side, and decided 3-4 years from now you DID want to go back, that door might be closed (you could be too high on the salary grade with too little experience, or that’s just not How We Do Things). If you ultimately want to be in management and both paths get you there (you say both paths have promotional opps), then it might not matter.

    3. Joshua*

      I believe that the purpose of many of these rotational programs/development programs is so that the company can get a great worker in the spot they’ll be happiest and most productive. The company wants you to see the different roles and decide on where you want to be since it’s a win-win for you and the company. I think most managers participating in the program know that sometimes the worker will want to say with them and sometimes someone else, but either way the company gets a great (and happy) worker.

      I think it’ll look totally normal on your resume either way. It’s the same company, you’d just say for 2015-2017 you were in the career development program, with postings in X and Y departments and then you had Analyst position 2017-present. It doesn’t even look job-hoppery because you’re with the same company in an obvious next step role.

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        I agree with Joshua here. Another purpose of these programs is to cross-pollinate workers so that no matter where they wind up, they know and have connections with multiple departments. If you started tech and wind up in analysis, that connection with the tech side is still a positive for the guy who recruited you into the program.

        It sounds win-win to me, and you have two good options to pick from.

    4. Jessesgirl72*

      Stay in the part of the field that you love.

      Even if the technical side had more obvious career opportunities, that’s not really the important thing, to me personally. I want to do what I enjoy every day- not climb in a career I don’t enjoy.

      Since the analysis side also would transfer to other areas, I’m not really seeing the dilemma here. It’s good to be loyal to a company, but not to the point where you’re giving up something you want just out of a sense of loyalty.

  18. Butch Cassidy*

    I’m considering participation in “rapid response”-type direct actions, like the crowd that blocked the ICE truck in Phoenix from driving a DACA-eligible undocumented woman to detention. If I did this, it would require my being ready to get up and leave work, probably for the rest of the day, with no advance notice.

    I work a job where I can just come in on a weekend day and make up whatever I’ve missed, but I know that it’s not okay to just bail with no explanation. How would I have a conversation with my supervisor about this?

    1. Anon13*

      I think this is extremely dependent on your supervisor’s temperament, your relationship with your supervisor, and your supervisor’s political views/views on what you’d be doing. (I know this isn’t a great answer!) If you think your supervisor would support your participating in these actions, you could explain what you’re doing and why you may need to leave suddenly. If not, it gets a little dicier.

      Either way, good luck!

      1. Manders*

        Yeah, I’d love to have a supervisor who would support this. If you *can* be honest, that’s awesome.

        I’m pretty much ok with “I’m feeling ill/I have a doctor’s appoint”-style white lies when you’re leaving work for a good reason that you don’t want to hash out with your boss, like going to an interview or a protest, so long as it’s just an occasional thing. But that depends on a lot of factors like how comfortable you feel fudging the truth, how likely it is that your boss would find out you were at the protest anyway, whether you regularly work with time-sensitive projects, whether you can catch up on work later in the day from home, etc.

    2. Temperance*

      There is typically at least a little bit of lead time for these rapid response actions. My boss is fine with me leaving to go join protests – she does it herself and always invites me to join in – so long as she knows where I am, generally. This is with the caveat that I wouldn’t or couldn’t skip on client meetings etc. to join the resistance, but I wouldn’t want to do that anyway (because the resistance needs lawyers!).

      Not knowing the nature of your job, do you have clients/meetings/etc. to handle, or are you largely independent?

      1. Butch Cassidy*

        Largely independent. We have regular team meetings twice a week, but those are in the morning/early afternoon. For the most part, all my boss cares about is that our goals are met and we’re in the office most of the time so we can help each other out when needed.

        (I would have more leeway to work from home had another member of the team not messed things up for the rest of us by involving her husband in a work question, when we handle sensitive information on a regular basis and the company is very twitchy about security.)

    3. LCL*

      I would ask you to lie to me and take sick time. Government job, I am not allowed to interfere in your politics, vs shiftwork critical function. So we would both be maintaining a polite fiction and procedures are followed and everybody’s happy.

    4. MsMaryMary*

      You might also want to take into account how likely it is your supervisor or another coworker will see you participating in the rapid response. Someone who might not mind if you were straightforward about your unexpected time off might have a different reaction if you told them you were going to the doctor and then show up in the lead story on the evening news. I’d tell your manager the truth if you feel comfortable, or leave it vague if you don’t (minor emergency, unexpected situation you have to take care of, etc).

    5. zora*

      I would probably just be vague about having to leave for an “appointment”. Maybe even talk to them ahead of time and say I might have to take some appointments with little-to-no-notice in the next few weeks. I’ll be making sure to come in on the weekend and make up the work, but I wanted to let you know.

  19. Hmmmmmm*

    Work etiquette question:

    My boss found out two days ago that I was being promoted to lead my own department. We’d previously connected in a dotted line fashion, really, as his job function is not terribly related to mine, but he has past work experience that enabled him to help out if I struggled.

    He was a big help for about 6 months early 2016, but our relationship is now strained. As soon as I was comfortable standing on my own feet last year, he reacted oddly. Lashing out, finding fault where there wasn’t any, telling his boss what a poor job I was doing…. He didn’t really do anything connected to my position for the last 8 months besides complain that I wasn’t doing it well. Fortunately, his boss let my results speak, and is now promoting me to report directly to him.

    Here’s the thing. My boss has known for two days and a company-wide announcement went out yesterday. And my boss hasn’t spoken to me since he found out. Do I thank him for him help early last year? He was thanked in the company wide announcement, but that was from his boss, not me. Also, he hasn’t said anything to me. I’m not just saying he hasn’t congratulated me—he literally hasn’t spoken to me. I kind of feel like I shouldn’t bother. I have no plans to ever use him as a reference and he’s made it clear he doesn’t plan on working nicely with me.

    1. Marcy Marketer*

      If you don’t think you will use him as a reference, it doesn’t matter. I don’t think that he will change his behavior if you write him a note, but I think you should try anyway. Maybe you could also ask him directly if you’ve done anything wrong?

      1. Hmmmmmm*

        I honestly don’t care at this point if he thinks I’ve done anything wrong, as I’ve been successful without his help for 8 months. I was trying to figure out the line between being polite (do people normally thank a boss if someone else promotes them?) and deciding not to bother as he consonantly undermines me and says rude things.

        You raise a good point about changing his behavior–which this wouldn’t affect. I’m leaning more toward no, now.

        Thank you!

    2. Drew*

      IMO, a sincere thank you note for all the help he gave you would be a gracious gesture, but if you don’t think you can write one that won’t come off as sarcastic (or if even a sincere note would be taken poorly by soon-to-be-former boss because that well is so poisoned), you can let it go.

    3. Camellia*

      If I read correctly, he will be your boss after your promotion? And he only found out you were being promoted two days ago? Sounds like he wasn’t involved in the process at all; that seems unusual. I would be talking to both him and with grandboss to try to figure this out and make it work.

      1. Hmmmmmm*

        No, he is now my former boss who hasn’t actually had anything to do with my job for the last 8 months.

    4. emma*

      I would politely thank him for his past help. If you don’t think you can do it well in person, I would send an email. It costs you very little, and at the very least it will take the wind out of his sails if he wants to badmouth you or something. What your describing makes it sounds like he felt threatened by you because he was fine helping you at the start, but once you started doing great he undermined you. I’d just keep being professional, and rocking it. That will stand out to others, even if he keeps being petty.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I agree with this. At one time he did right by you, so thank him for that. This does not have to be a long note and definitely do not exaggerate or say anything you do not mean.

        You are correct in saying the fact that the company thanked him is not the same as if you thank him.

        If you found out ten years from now that he had Life Changing Problem going on right now in his personal life, you might be glad that you rose above the tension of the moment and thanked him for the parts he got right.
        It costs you nothing to do this. And it could mean something later.

    5. Sadsack*

      You could just say tell him it’s been nice working with him and thank him for whatever help he provided early on in your role. If the last part is a stretch, don’t bother. Just say the nice working with you part.

    6. NK*

      I wouldn’t do anything to burn the bridge. As much as you might want nothing to do with him, you never know when your paths may be forced to cross again. I wouldn’t give him a big effusive thank you, but I would say something brief and pleasant to him about your moving on.

    1. Librarian Ish*

      I ask because I’ve been getting more involved in activism work (I was volunteering 3-5 hours a week before the elections, but now I’ve increased that quite a bit, in addition to a 40-hour a week job) but I’m starting to feel like I don’t do anything *but* work. But what’s normal, right?

      1. Taylor Swift*

        Is that sustainable for you in the long run? Just keep in mind that you won’t be able to help much at all if you get totally burned out!

    2. Temperance*

      Recently, it’s been pretty terrible, but I work in a sector that is actively involved in the resistance and my job is basically arranging lawyers to help. So it’s been like 12-14 hour days for the past 2.5 weeks, including weekends.

    3. Anon13*

      Mine is horrible right now, for many of the same reasons you’ve mentioned, but, as someone who’s been involved in activism on and off for my entire adult life, I’ve found that participating in activism in ways I enjoy (and, when possible, with friends) goes a long way toward making it feel less like work. I love writing and don’t get to do it much for work (other than boring letters and the like), so, in the past, I wrote a blog for an organization I supported. I also recently started working with refugee families to help them learn about American culture, etc. (well, I haven’t started, but I started the training). I absolutely loathe making phone calls, but I love coordinating meetings, so I do very little of the former, but a lot of the latter. I know it’s tough because a lot of the things I enjoy are the same things everyone enjoys and we need people to make phone calls, canvas, etc., too, but doing things I genuinely enjoy has always really helped me avoid burnout.

    4. fposte*

      It tilts pretty strongly toward the work side, but I love most of the work. I’ve also got the common academic blurring of the line, with friend stuff shifting to colleague stuff in the blink of an eye, and with a lot of weekend hours doing work-related stuff while I cook and play music.

      And it probably could balance more toward play if I consciously made that happen, and I’ve been doing that more in the last couple of years. But it’s a pretty worky life, and that’s okay by me.

    5. krysb*

      I work full-time, attend college full-time, and am gearing up to volunteer with the local Legal Aid Society. What is play?

    6. Lemon Zinger*

      Not great. I work full-time and often have to work overtime with no additional compensation. My boss occasionally approves flex time, but not always. Fortunately I do have periods of down-time at work, which I use to do my homework (I am in graduate school part-time for a degree directly related to my field). If I’m careful about it, I never have to do homework or class reading at home.

      I find it hard to detach from work because my boss emails and texts at all hours, even sometimes on weekends. Removing my work email from my phone has helped. I love my job and care a lot about the people I work with, so it’s really never far from my mind.

      I wouldn’t mind the overtime if I was fairly compensated for it, but I don’t think the new FLSA regulations will go into effect with our current administration.

    7. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Pretty good – I get to work at 8 and leave at 5 most days, although sometimes I take work home or do stay late when required. Right now its a good balance. However..

      We are about to enter a heavy “gig” cycle for us (my partner and I) between next week and beginning of May. Our thing together (other than cooking, travel, data analysis, software and technology, etc) is music and we love the same stuff (what brought us together really). Some fabulous shows coming up the first half of the year for us, but they tend to be later (one next week starts at 11 pm. On a school night! But we haven’t seen the artist since 2012 and I REALLY wanted to see him again and we were late booking) or multiples in a week. So by the time I leave the house at 7:10 in the morning to catch train, go to work, meet with other half somewhere in town, see the show, then get home I can be out a good 15 or 16 hours. Don’t get to sleep until 1.30am and the alarm at 6.15 seems really early!

      So…. maybe skewed a little too much on play soon, but let’s hope work doesn’t blow up simultaneously. Which it could do.

    8. Bibliovore*

      Nonexistent.
      I work. As an academic librarian on tenure-track, this seems to be the norm. If I am not teaching, I am prepping to teach. If I am not writing, I am researching. If I am not doing those, I am working on strategic plans. Or a grant, or updating my dossier, or prepping a lecture, or giving a lecture, or traveling to a conference or prepping for a conference or mentoring the next assistant librarians, or posting on my blog or social media or revising my book, or reading a book for review, or reading articles for prep for teaching or evaluating materials for classes, or answering reference questions or filing departmental reports and statistics or fund raising or community engagement or planning for the next event or writing the department newsletter. Oh, yeah and collection development. If I am not doing those I am giving service on professional committees.

      Of course…saying all of that, I have spent the last 3 days in bed with the flu reading mystery novels and streaming Bones. Taking the weekend off for more of the same. (although the Newsletter is due and I will probably complete a draft by Sunday)

      1. Bibliovore*

        And now ,I am feeling better, so will do the grocery shopping this morning. Run out my materials budget, (80 percent has to be spent by the end of Feb). and do the newsletter that is due to the designer on Tuesday. There will be a nap.

    9. Overeducated*

      My actual work is confined to Mon-Fri 9-5, which was a major attraction of my position. I spend a few hours a week on job searching outside of that (I’m on a grant so always thinking toward the future), but don’t have the time, energy, or library access to also continue the independent research necessary to keep a foot in the academic world.

      Other commitments include parenting (most of my free time), church, and protesting, which is a thing I am just starting to do but trying to make it regular. “Play” is usually restricted to one or two nights a week when I don’t fall into bed immediately after the kid, and weekend mornings. I used to be a distance runner and I haven’t figured out how to make the time, but my body is feeling the change and it’s not a good one.

    10. Giant Fox*

      I worked 4 months last year and vacationed the rest of the time. Getting ready to get back to work in the next few months. By choice.

    11. Honeybee*

      Mine is pretty good. I work about 40-55 hours a week depending on the week. Next week, for example, I have a study so I am working all weekend – my hours will probably come out to about ~55 hours that week because of that. But normally I work 40-45.

      I volunteer an average of 3 hours a week; I teach Saturday writing classes to high schoolers in a college prep program every other Saturday. I’m the director of the writing and on the executive committee so there’s administrative work that goes along with that.

      So really every other weekend I set aside for doing nothing and/or spending time with my husband and my dog. And my evenings are generally my own. I wish I took actual vacations more often, though. Last year I spent most of my vacation time visiting family which…not really a vacation, lol.

    12. Gaia*

      I would describe it as a bitter laugh.

      I have no balance. All work and no play makes Gaia cranky and sad :(

      6 more months to go.

  21. Anon13*

    Sorry to complain basically every week in the open thread.

    Yesterday, my boss didn’t allow me to take a lunch so I could complete something personal/not work-related for him. I got sick/started dry-heaving/almost passed out on the way home because I hadn’t eaten all day and had eaten an early dinner the night before, so it had been 24 hours since I’d eaten (yes, I know I should eat breakfast). Today, I’ve spent the morning trying to find things for his daughter, whom he insists on having come in to “work” for us, to do. She’s bright enough, but there’s nothing for her to do at this point and finding things for her to do actually take significantly more time than it would for me to complete the tasks myself. She doesn’t work for us regularly, so there’s not a huge value in training her to do some of the more difficult work.

    I need a new job yesterday (yes, I’ve been looking).

    1. Tuckerman*

      Could you have just told him you’re going to quickly run across the street to grab a sandwich to eat while completing the task he assigned you? Was the issue that he didn’t want you to take a break, or that he wouldn’t allow you to eat?

      1. Anon13*

        Unfortunately, our office is in an industrial park – the closest fast food restaurants/restaurants of any kind would require about a 15 minute break, minimum, if everything went smoothly. There was no way for me to eat without taking at least a short break. And this occurred at 3:45ish, already well past “normal” lunch time. (I don’t take lunch at a set time every day, but the job is 8:30-5:30, so 3:45 is obviously pretty late in the day.)

        It was frustrating because it wasn’t even remotely work-related, I’m not a personal assistant/assistant of any kind, the task wasn’t remotely in my job description, and, the kicker, he could have easily done it – he was watching CNN (which is not related to the type of work we do) while I completed it. He just didn’t want to do it.

    2. Drew*

      That’s awful. I wish you luck finding something soon.

      I’d be tempted to assign her the task of going out to get food, if you aren’t going to be “allowed” (WTF) to take your own lunch break.

      1. Anon13*

        Thanks for the sympathy and for the well-wishes!

        Ha ha. I should assign the task of going out to get snacks in case this happens again. I’m hoping to get to actually take my lunch break today (there are many things I don’t like about this job, but, luckily, this was an anomaly), but, if I can’t, maybe I’ll send her out!

    3. NK*

      I’m sorry. I hope you can find a new job soon.

      Next time, say something like, “I need to grab something quick to eat, or I’m going to end up passed out cold on the floor before I can finish your rice sculpture!” Use a lighthearted tone. You shouldn’t have to, but when you’re desperately trying to get out, do what you can for self-preservation and to mitigate the impact of the jerk boss.

      1. Anon13*

        I will be prepared with something like that if it happens again! It just caught me so off-guard that I didn’t know what to say. I’ll probably bring some small snacks in to leave at my desk and/or in the fridge, as well – this was unusual, so I wasn’t prepared with what to say or with something to eat!

        1. Awkward Interviewee*

          That was going to me my suggestion – bring in some granola bars, protein bars, nuts, whatever it is you like that you can keep in your desk to eat in case something like this happens again.
          And I’m sending some good job search vibes your way!

          1. zora*

            Yeah, stock up on food. I have found peanut-butter filled pretzels and nuts work really well for me when I need to eat but can’t stop working.

            But really, that is f*cking ridiculous, and your boss needs to let you have at least a short break to eat. That kind of crap can lead to people having to get retrieved by ambulance/workers comp claims/lawsuits.

          2. blackcat*

            I keep nuts and dried fruit at my desk for emergencies. Dried fruit gets me the short sugar boost (and is marginally more healthy than candy) and nuts can get me through the afternoon.

            I buy in bulk, so it’s not too expensive. Unlike granola bars, it doesn’t get sticky and nasty if it gets too hot.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Yes, definitely bring something and/or keep a stash. I used to work in an industrial park with one nasty place across the road and that was it–other than going up to the Kum N Go truck stop. (Though the K&G chicken fingers were great haha.) I almost always brought my lunch and something to snack on. Too many big trucks meant you couldn’t always count on running out for something and getting back in time.

    4. krysb*

      I hate bosses that try to force me to do non-work-related work for them. I get paid by a company to do company-related work. If you want a lackey, I advise you to go hire one with your own funds.

      2. Anon13*

        It’s a small business and he’s the owner, so I guess he feels he has a little more leeway to make us do personal work (and, in reality, I guess he’s right). It’s still frustrating, though! I know employers can technically ask you to do anything that’s not illegal/immoral, but it’s irritating when it keeps you from doing the job you were hired for!

      2. Anon13*

        I did. I’m in Ohio, one of the few states where it’s not illegal (as long as the employee is 18 or older). Having worked several retail jobs in Ohio in the past, I definitely thought it was, because every retail company I worked for was strict about us taking breaks. But they were all national companies, and I think they just used the same rules across all stores.

  22. WellRed*

    Here’s one for the silly job titles file. I came across a job posting for a “chief chaos manager.” Basically, sounded like an officer manager position for a local branch of Keller Williams realty.

    1. Marcy*

      LinkedIn has been referring me to a position called “Legal Ninja” for the last six months. Bravo to this company for seeking out the reclusive Law-jutsu clan, but I guess they’re not biting. Must be too busy knocking their enemies out with large stacks of contracts and disappearing into clouds of espresso steam.

    4. Antilles*

      At least they’re being honest – their branch is horribly disorganized and they know that. Points for honesty I guess.

    5. krysb*

      At my company, we have Director Employee Happiness (HR person), Culture Warrior (handles all things about company culture), and Production Commander.

        1. krysb*

          She’s really our only HR person, but does other things. Like, on one hand, she is overhauling the employee evaluation system, but on the other hand, she is the main party planner (and throws some pretty bitchin’ parties). I’d say that the title is eye-roll-worthy, but that is a function of her job.

      2. zora*

        yeah, these kinds of job titles are becoming common in the bay area, and I’m honestly not sure how to feel about them. I want to eyeroll, but maybe I’m being too judgy….

        1. krysb*

          Ha! We’re kinda hipster in Nashville. We weren’t always, it’s mostly how they re-tooled when we moved offices a couple of years ago. We have a pretty fun company culture.

      2. hermit crab*

        Haha! My undergraduate major department has a “departmental dogs” section on their faculty & staff website. Said dogs specialize in research topics like “Tennis Ball Studies” and “Olfactory Analysis of Just About Everything.”

  23. EA*

    I know Alison has talked about this before, but I couldn’t remember on what thread.

    Does anyone have any advice on how to distance themselves from constant negativity of coworkers. Everyone in my office spends a tremendous amount of time bitching. Usually the thing they are bitching about is frustrating, but our company is filled with bureaucratic frustrating things, it is truly a part of the industry. I feel like a loop of constant complaining exists, and it is effecting my mood. I don’t want to be like a ray of sunshine or anything, but this is exhausting and none of the things they complain about are changing. How can I get away from this for my own mental health when I still want to participate in the office? We also work in an open concept so I can hear everything.

    1. Marcy Marketer*

      Can you put on headphones when people start complaining? Smile sympathetically and say, “I’m sorry, my new year’s resolution is to be more positive. I’m just going to throw these ear buds in but you guys keep talking.”

      1. EA*

        That’s a good idea. I can’t wear headphones all the time (from an image perspective they think they look bad); but on days where the bosses are not in the office it could work.

    2. Drew*

      I’m trying to break myself of that habit, and one strategy that’s helping me is to remember that I want to find solutions, not more problems. I’m trying to model this behavior for my coworkers as well: “Yes, this is really frustrating, and it is the situation we have to deal with. How can we move on, under the circumstances?”

      I am not perfect at this. But I’m getting better.

    3. Leslie Knope*

      I distanced myself from around the main offenders. I take a break from the office for lunch. I go on a walk, sit outside, or even eat at my desk and put in headphones. I will wear headphones as often as possible when I hear the complaining. I also start my day at my desk with 3 things I’m grateful for. I also play “Pollyanna” and don’t egg on the negativity and just smile and say something like “I’m sorry. That sounds really challenging.” and then change the subject.

    4. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      I have a coworker who can’t seem to ever voice a positive comment. We used to get each other into a downward cycle, but we’re no longer friends so it’s not a problem anymore. I can still hear her constantly complaining though.

    5. Argh!*

      I used to be that person who wouldn’t go along with it. I was characterized as a Pollyanna and not a “team player” by these negative nellies.

      I used headphones to block them out, and when that didn’t work I switched to speakers and played this until they went away:

      http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/choccy

      It’s probably not possible to turn them around but you can be more annoying than they are, which is something.

    6. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      I agree with the headphones as a temporary stop-gap. But for the long term, look into where the behaviors manifest. Are your coworkers gathering around your desk to have these discussions? If so, shut that down. Just let them know you are trying to focus on a task and ask them to take the conversation to their own desk or down the hall. I often have to do that – my coworkers have individual offices while I am in the community space. They often stand around my desk (but really in the area between their two offices) to have discussions and it’s so flipping distracting. Especially if I am on a phone call!

      What other times are they commiserating? Breaks, lunches? Find something different to do. Don’t completely segregate yourself, but maybe take on a new walking challenge and spend your breaks walking around the building. Shoot, you can even tell them that your Resolution this year is to focus on the positive and not the negative things you can’t change, so you will be Pollyanna. If they are going to be negative, you are going to smile and tell them how fortunate they are to have a job to complain about.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Tell them once they have a plan to fix it, you will jump in and help them. Optionally, add, “But I have not been able to figure out a plan yet.”

    8. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      Colleague at oldjob liked to intensely rant about things. Every time she tried it with me I said: “Thanks for letting me know but that’s not a problem for me,” or “Thanks for letting me know but I don’t want to talk about that.” It drove her completely crackers and she stopped trying.

      I think it’s best not to actually explain why you’re not joining in (as that gives them the opportunity to judge or feel judged). Just change the subject or put headphones on or whatever – but don’t explain.

  24. NowManagingPeople*

    I started a new job where I’m the project manager and personnel manager. Previously just managed projects, not people. I’m facing some issues with my team due to how one of them can’t quite seem to let go of how they were the defacto team lead while the company was looking for a new manager. I was told that Gepetteo didn’t want to be a the manager because they didn’t have the technical skills, but would be happy to stay a teapot analyst. That probably should have been a red flag for me, but I was ready to leave my old job. It turns out Gepetteo is is good at recording requirements but not really good at much else an analyst would do. But that’s not the main issue. The main issue is that the team continues to turn to Gepetteo on project manager decisions even after explaining processes and finishing out transitioning admin items. I think the team is doing this out of habit and it’s a habit I would like to break. Would love some tips on how to break that old process habit and how to work with someone that can’t quite let go.

    1. Drew*

      Can you turn this into a positive by enlisting Gepetteo’s help? “I know the team is used to turning to you for a lot of these questions, and it has to be eating into your own time. Let’s figure out some ways that you can redirect those questions to me so you aren’t getting interrupted so often.”

    2. fposte*

      What are the situations where they turn to Gepetteo? Is he more available or proximal than you, and are there things you can do to change that? What happens when they ask him instead of you? Does it mean there are mistakes and misunderstandings, and can you use those to identify the reasons for people to report to you?

      Assuming no tragic errors are happening that need immediate and severe correction, I would focus a lot on the first and make it much easier for people to talk to you–you initiate more frequent one-on-ones and check-ins and find ways to be more approachable while you explicitly make the point that these are things that need to be brought to you, so you’re making what you want to happen really easy. I’d also ask Gepetteo to help you on this, in a way that makes it a partnership and not a punishment; as team lead, he’s trusted to triage what stuff needs to go to you, so it’s important he understands when he needs to direct people elsewhere. And make this part of transition feedback for all the staff, not in a “don’t talk to Gepetteo” way but in a “we need to use our manager effectively” way–recognize when it’s being done appropriately, counsel (selectively rather than ruthlessly) when they’re slipping into the old patterns.

  25. The Lizzy*

    I’m really curious about this.

    I found this blog a few years about and the posts and readers have helped me a lot in my job searches in that time and manage issues that have come up at work (and even get a good laugh in too).

    But this is my question – I feel a bit like we talk a lot here about an ideal that I am not living and that no one I know is living. While every place has issues at times when I read posts and replies I feel a bit like people are describing an environment / company / managers that don’t seem based in reality. Not talking about the outrageous ones but the positive places, that are supportive and that people feel good going to work to every day… that people feel engaged and encouraged to do their best work. That’s where I’d like to be but haven’t found that yet and I wonder – is that really out there?

    My last few jobs have been very strange environments… one with a manager that was inept and spoke in corporate speak so much even he didn’t seem to know what he was talking about. The owner of the business still had his wife (separated) and girlfriend working there… The next place was a temp job related to an large event. I worked for two people who were abusive and unreasonable yet expected me to do their work for them.

    Where I am now has a number of issues, I struggle with whether to stay every single day. My husband and friends all have major issues at their jobs too. Some behavior they deal with is not only inappropriate but some against the law… but people don’t want to lose their jobs so they do their best to persevere.

    So I’m really curious – do you all work at great places that you feel good about being at? I wonder if I’m hoping for too much at times, I read the ideal here but the reality seems far from it.

    Thanks!

    1. katamia*

      I feel similarly to you sometimes about things I see on here because most of my jobs have been pretty awful as well. I guess the closest I’ve ever gotten to a decent place is my last freelance job. The coworkers were decent but quiet (perfect for me), I could wear headphones all day, management was very supportive, they emphasized training…and it was such a horrible fit for me that I stopped sleeping and started basically losing my mind due to lack of sleep. So I don’t know.

    2. Dawn*

      Every company has issues- every company of every size, every industry, every type of ownership. Even people who talk about having a good group of people to work with, with teams that are respectful and helpful, with good compensation, and doing a job where they fill personally fulfilled have “those days” or “that stupid policy” or “that one guy”.

      My last job, for example- 3K people, worldwide; was a software company. I felt fulfilled, I worked with some great people, I was learning a lot. I had a good manager and VP. I was compensated well. I was not overworked.

      In that same job, I had a guy on my team who I could not *stand* (who eventually got fired), someone on another team I worked closely with who was the biggest brown-noser I have ever met in my life (whose lack of expertise- obvious to me immediately but apparently not to all- eventually caught up to her and she left instead of getting fired), plenty of petty annoyances at my manager who was great but who had a completely different working style than I did, plenty of stupid/short-sighted decisions coming down from leadership (which ended in me getting laid off along with almost 1/5 of the entire company), etc etc etc.

      So at that job yes, there was a lot of good, but there were still tons of annoying things to deal with every day and there absolutely were times when I contemplated quitting because the annoying little things kept piling up.

      One thing that I see happening with a lot of people in their jobs is having unrealistic expectations of what their job actually *is*. I did it for a year and a half in my current job, constantly having resentment for the work I did and how I felt like my bosses never relied on me like I wanted. However, someone pointed out to me that no matter what my job description said at the time I took the job, nor what I *wanted* and *expected* my job to be, in reality, my job is more like an in-house consultant that they pay a retainer for so they can pop their heads in whenever they want and ask me to do stuff on the occasions that they need stuff done. That was my lightbulb moment about this job, and while I’m still absolutely gonna go look for another job because I cannot stand not having work to do, I am now much more at peace with the *reality* of my job instead of constantly struggling with my perceptions of how it *should* be.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, I think sometimes it’s about avoiding a Swiss cheese situation, making sure the job’s deficits don’t align with your vulnerable points. Hate bureaucracy? Can’t stand slow administrative movement? Then academia will be a nightmare for you. I can shrug those off, whereas I would feel really constricted by a lot of corporate practices.

    3. Beautiful Loser*

      I think the concept of ideal is whatever you are willing to tolerate. Some places are truly dysfunctional while others only mildly. My workplace sucks and is all kinds of dysfunctional but like most, I still need a paycheck so I am stuck till I find something more tolerable.

    4. The IT Manager*

      Hmmm … I like my job most of the time. I occasionally enjoy it, but not lately.

      Sometimes it’s stressful. I work long term projects that seem to have long term issues, and project completion comes every 2-3 years. We don’t have time to celebrate the smaller successes because a smaller success is immediately followed by the next phase which is getting a late start and is having its own problems.

      Also I recently realized that the parts of the job I most like may have shifted to the contractors. It’s hard to tell because the day to day is the same (email, teleconferences, etc) and not the same as we move the project from planning to completion over several years.

      Also I don’t feel a good rapport with the senior leadership as we reorganize and reorganize, but my supervisors are good and supportive.

      The biggest thing I found is liking and working well with the people you work with every day. If you don’t have that I think you’re probably not too happy. But a good boss and co-workers can make bad situations a lot better.

    5. Drew*

      I am working in one of the most dysfunctional companies I have ever seen. But I love my work and I love most of my coworkers and on balance, it’s worth putting up with the nepotism, back-biting, complete lack of appropriate boundaries, and sometimes outright sabotage. (Among other examples.)

      Plus, I have the BEST stories when I do finally leave this place.

    6. Manders*

      I think they’re out there, but it’s easier to get into that kind of workplace when your skills are in demand and you’ve built up some judgement and ability to spot red flags. My career path started with a totally dysfunctional internship, and every time I switch jobs, I get a bit closer to the ideal. Right now, I’m at a place that’s a little disorganized sometimes and not a great culture fit for me, but I like my job and I feel supported.

      I do happen to live in a big city with a hot job market. Things might be different if there were only one major employer in my area, or I had chosen an industry that rewards toxic behavior, or I felt pressured to take the first job that came along instead of being choosy.

    7. writelhd*

      I have come to the conclusion that I work at a pretty darn good place and I feel pretty good about being here. That doesn’t mean there aren’t issues, and that doesn’t mean I don’t have frustrations. That doesn’t mean I don’t doubt and have periods of lack of engagement. Just yesterday in fact I got super wound up about two departments I work with both being dysfunctional and having a terrible working relationship with each other and one coworker in particular who’s a real ass to me and everyone else and his boss doesn’t do well managing him. I woke up in the middle of the night with the monologue running of how stressful I find it is to deal with him and how tired I am of watching projects shared between these two departments flop around like, as one coworker described it once, “a dying fish.”

      But overall, there are at least 15-20 people here who, even when we’re dealing with some dysfunction, are an absolute pleasure to work with, talk to, be around, to learn from, each in their own unique ways. They’re mostly honest, interested in everyone’s success, capable and engaged, and feeling that from my coworkers does affect how the general culture *feels.* I am lucky enough to work under an exceptional boss in particular whose leadership style has affected our culture for the better in palpable ways. When I’m having a bad day, getting frustrating, feeling imposter syndrome, feeling confused about how to handle my very nebulous job, I remind myself that I’m working for *them* and it helps. So, the people make the difference.

    8. Jessesgirl72*

      Every place has issues.

      What I think the value of AAM is, so you get to see a glimpse that places that aren’t so obviously dysfunctional do exist- or you come to realize that your employer really is that bad, and that you should maybe think about finding a job someplace else. That will still not be perfect, but that will be not actively terrible!

      And also, seeing that no, it doesn’t really have to be this way, and you don’t have to accept crappy/illegal stuff can give you the strength to push back against the worst of it (In Alison-coached ways that are pushing back in a way unlikely to get you fired). A lot of times, it just takes on person to start pushing back, and then others follow, and the dysfunctional place becomes less so.

      The bad places want you to believe that no where else is better. It’s how they keep you there, taking their bad behavior. But it’s just not true.

      1. Allypopx*

        I agree wholeheartedly with this. Knowing that your standard for normal might be skewed by your workplace can be very empowering.

        But I also get where The Lizzey is coming from where so many times Alison says “this should work in any reasonable workplace….” and you think “sure, yeah, but.”

        I like my job most days. I like my team. The work I do is pretty cool. My boss can be challenging, I never truly get to disconnect, there’s a lot of politics and inter-departmental conflict, and I manage 20-30 people at a time with one co-manager, all of which can cause significant stress. It’s not perfect. But I know I’m valued and good at what I do, I’m compensated decently and there are a lot of perks I enjoy. Sometimes jobs are truly awful , but I also think sometimes it comes down to perspective.

        1. Jessesgirl72*

          It’s good to know, though, that the “sure, yeah, but..” isn’t always right. So many times, bosses get away with stuff because no one even tries to push back in useful way.

          And if if IS right, then *ding*ding*ding* you’re not working in a reasonable workplace.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Yes, so much yes, that so many times people just haven’t tried to push back on it in a reasonable, professional way.

            And yeah, when I say “in a reasonable workplace, X should work,” and you’re thinking “no way would this work at my job,” then … there’s a conclusion to draw there :)

            That said, no workplace is 100% perfect. You might find somewhere that’s 90% great but they’re really weird on a couple of issues. Often that’s totally ok if you look at it holistically.

            1. Jessesgirl72*

              It’s like marriage/partnership.

              No one or no job is perfect. It’s all about ending up with someone or in a place where you can accept the flaws and who can accept your flaws.

              Then, it’s knowing that if things are really making you unhappy, sometimes you can work for change- and have success and happiness at the end. But if you can’t, then know you’re not trapped, and sometimes the best answer for everyone is to walk away. Realizing that can be really empowering.

              1. tigerStripes*

                I’ve been working at the same place for a long time, and of course it isn’t perfect, but it’s pretty functional, and I like it. That being said, yes there are stressful days and a co-worker who I avoid, but you can’t expect perfection.

    9. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      Yep. Nice managers, clear objectives, training, lot of paid time off, one difficult colleague but otherwise it’s great. I’m sorry it’s not like that for you.

    10. ThatGirl*

      My workplace is not perfect, but it’s good. There’s a reason I’ve lasted almost 9 years and it’s not because the work itself is fascinating. But the work-life balance is very good, my managers have nearly all been wonderful, hard work and talent is recognized and appreciated. The benefits are not amazing but they are good (18 days vacation to start, health/dental/eye, 401k, bereavement days, short and long term disability, company discounts, etc). Ethics are taken seriously. On a corporate level we may not always feel appreciated, but my department and managers definitely do their best.

    11. Anonym.*

      I’ve been in one of those positive environments for the last five years. They’re real. That’s not to say it’s perfect – there have been conflicts between people, and the bureaucracy is out of control, and my manager has some irritating qualities. He talks over people, occasionally takes credit for our work and sometimes says sexist things; he also graciously accepts correction on those things and has improved significantly. He’s kind, well-meaning, doesn’t micromanage, supports our growth (including discussing future roles outside the team) and pushes for promotions and raises. My team is open, supportive, honest, and everyone pitches in when things need to happen, regardless of role and rank. We argue sometimes, but it’s generally productive and often fun. It actually makes it hard to leave – I’d like to move into a different field, but I know I’ll miss this when I’m gone, and worry about being able to find it again. How do you tell what you’re walking into based on a few interviews? Here’s hoping my luck holds (and that anyone who’s in a bad situation has the same good luck in the future!).

      BTW, we’re program managers in a large financial firm, and are in a bit of a bubble; the whole firm isn’t like this, but our broader department, led by its head, has this kind of culture, and I’m grateful for it.

      A good friend is now at a stable, well-functioning workplace for the first time in her 15 year career, and has had a bit of trouble believing it. No random firings, respect for boundaries, professionalism (mostly) and a boss who’s just plain nice.

    12. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I work for a small company that is very well managed, and supports employees in keeping a work-life balance. It varies a bit from manager to manager, but my last boss believed in getting your work done in 8 hours (or less) and only handling true emergencies after hours, which are few and far between in our work. (I’ve had maybe one every few years or so.)

      Our management is transparent about any changes in benefits, like when we switch health plans they give a report of what our previous plan wanted to renew us, and what they bargained for with the new provider to get us a better deal. Or what other offers they were able to solicit that weren’t better than our current provider, which is why we renewed despite an X% increase in premiums.

      We also do a lot of cross-training. Any skills that anyone at the company has, we are encouraged to go ask that person for advice or training if it applies to our work, even if that person doesn’t work on our projects.

      Those are just examples, but I think they exemplify some of the things I like the most about working for my company.

    13. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’ve worked in different environments, all with their ups and downs, and I’m now in a place that feels good FOR ME. I think that’s the key. I had drinks this week with a former co-worker, and she’s really happy at a place that made me insane, stressed, anxious, and miserable. If you interviewed us separately, she and I would probably tell you the exact same things but have different opinions of all of them.

    14. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I finally found a place that is great and supportive but after so many years getting beat up at other places, it almost seems… strange? Or that I feel I have adapted some level of combativness that doesn’t jive with the ethos of the place. That’s been a bit scary to realize. But this job… I had people I could ask and really pick around to find out what it was really like inside. I still can’t believe it some days.

      I’m just happy I don’t have to deal with the corporate bullshitter or my boss farting in my direction at this job. Or a nasty passive-aggressive boss lying about my capabilities. Or some blowhard Irishman yelling in our direction because he again doesn’t understand the difference between revenue and volume and needs someone to explain it to him before meeting with the CEO.

    15. yarnowl*

      I work at a company that is great and that I love working at!

      The one caveat I had to that was a pretty awful manager, but her boss heard me and some team members out, and after a few pretty-bad events, she was let go this week! Which has actually made me love this place even more; an executive of the company heard us out, took our concerns to heart, and acted on them, instead of just letting things continue as they were.

      There’s a huge focus here on retaining employees, keeping us happy, and giving us the opportunity to grow. Every receptionist that has worked here has moved on to higher and higher positions in the company, as well as everyone that has worked in the mail room.

      I honestly just stumbled into this place after applying for a job through a recruiter, but after being here for almost a year I feel like I could see myself having a career here (and it’s pretty common around here for someone to have been working here for decades). It’s not perfect here, but I feel extremely lucky and like I want to stay here for the foreseeable future.

      So yes, they do exist!

    16. Happy at work :)*

      Maybe I’m thinking this way because this is my first job, but I’ve been here 8 months and I love it. Very well supported, I laugh every day at work, genuinely friendly with my supervisor and I know everyone at work cares about the mission. My work isn’t always thrilling but my supervisor tries hard to make sure I also get to do things I want to do.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      Job A I loved the work, the boss was so-so, the coworkers were okay. This is the only job where I LOVED the work. I could not hack the chemicals. Now most of those chemicals are banned.
      Job B The boss was great and everyone was nice. The work involved long periods of extreme boredom. But the money was good.
      Job C. The boss was great, the work was nightmare but we could sit and cry together.

      The point is I can tell nice stories from each of these jobs. It makes it sound great. But there is always an added wrinkle or an unmentioned factor. My guess is that when people talk about a great job they are overlooking a not so hot aspect or two. My theory is that people have certain priorities, if those priorities are mostly met then people can overlook other parts to the job. If I work in a place where the boss/coworkers/work/ pay all suck, I am probably going to be complaining about the job. This makes sense as there is not much right about the job.

      My parents were depression kids. They instilled in me to take any job and be grateful for it. Yeah, this works. NOT. I started reading here years ago and found it fascinating that people actually demanded nice work places. So I started watching how they were doing that. And I am doing much better with picking work places.

      My suggestion is to look at your core beliefs to see if anything is a self-defeating belief. (For example, I no longer believe that just because I can do the work, I should do the work.) Next take a look at how you search for jobs, what can you do differently from what you have done in the past? (For this one, I had to learn to be more forthright. In order to be more forthright I had to figure out my wording on particular questions.)

    18. Honeybee*

      I work at a large company. I love my work and I do love my immediate team of coworkers; I also mostly like the larger team that I am on, although I think sometimes we have some weird processes and requirements that don’t necessarily make sense. I also generally like my company, even though I think it’s so big and bureaucratic that things get done very slowly and there’s often a thick layer of unnecessary red tape. It’s also very who-you-know based, so a lot of information and opportunities I need or would like to keep my career moving seem a bit opaque unless the right person lets you know about them.

      But generally speaking, 80% of my day to day job doesn’t require any of that and I do look forward to work in the morning and feel good about being on my team.

    19. Mirilla*

      My last job was at a family run company that went bankrupt basically due to poor management. I witnessed stealing, cheating, lying, and nepotism. My immediate supervisor was self-admittedly selfish and often unapproachable but my boss was good. A good boss can make all the difference, but he too was stressed there due to the money problems (we worked in accounting but had no say on how the owner ran the company.)
      Current job is even more dysfunctional although financially doing well. I now see the effects of having a bad boss. It affects everything about the job. I work with some great people but I’ve witnessed plenty of outrageous behaviors in our immediate department which go unchecked due to bad boss being unapproachable and unfriendly. Our immediate supervisor is one example. She has a self admitted track record of being fired at past jobs for poor performance and probably abrasive, rude personality but seems to love this job since bad boss avoids confrontation and just places the work which she can’t do on the rest of us. The work distribution is unreal. She admitted she’s not detailed, never learned to type, and isn’t good at data entry. Our head boss promised us a working manager but she admitted to us she’s not so good at doing things so that’s why she manages. I’m not making this up. It’s made me too question if there are any decent places out there to work. I know they exist though. I want to walk out of my job most days though and just hope I can get a new one soon. You aren’t alone.

    20. Rovannen*

      Management.

      Our worst-Murphy’s Law day under our new administrator (education) is better than our best day ever under the old administrator.

    21. AliceBD*

      Yes, I am at a very positive place. My coworkers are competent and friendly and trust me to do my job and do theirs. My boss intervened when I was overworked and took a big thing off my plate so I could do stuff more in line with my interests/job description instead of spending most of my time doing something that is absolutely critical to our business but repetitive and boring and that someone else could be easily trained on. I enjoy what I am doing very much and like going into work.

      There is one person who is a perfectly nice person and can do the technical aspects of her job well, but she is a TERRIBLE manager. Terrible. Fortunately I don’t have to work with her very much, but I feel bad for her direct reports who have to deal with her every day. (I do work with her direct reports, who are fantastic to work with.)

      But, I am job searching. Part of it has nothing to do with the job itself — I am at least a 5 hour drive from my family (longer if there is any traffic or weather), and I’m looking to move to a city 1.5 hours from my parents and in the same city as other relatives. But another part of it is that I don’t feel the larger corporate entity supports my division, and they’re showing it by doing things like not replacing a coworker who passed away last near, eliminating our advertising budget then asking why we aren’t connecting with new consumers, and so on. And while I work at a 20k person multi-national company, there are only a few hundred people in office roles, and most of them are not in marketing, so there is no where for me to move up. So I need to take another job to get new experience.

    22. Bethlam*

      Interesting, but I had the opposite reaction when I first found AAM – I couldn’t believe how many people worked at dysfunctional places and it made me appreciate my workplace all the more. I’ve been here 13 years, love my job, the company, and my coworkers. I’m devastated that I am losing my job in 6 months due to a restructuring and closing of our facility and have been bookmarking various AAM posts that will come in handy when I begin job hunting, and may come in handy if I end up in a working environment that’s not as great as this.

      My previous jobs were also mostly great. Although, when I worked at the bank and mentioned to a work friend how great the bank was to work for, she replied, “No, your DEPARTMENT is a great place to work.” I try to remember that when I talk to co-workers – not everyone who works for the same company necessarily has the same outlook on their jobs. Types of work, co-workers, bosses, personalities, even where you sit, all affects your individual experience.

  26. Marcy Marketer*

    I have an interpersonal work issue…. There’s this coworker, who is technically below me despite having more experience, though I am not his supervisor. He constantly shifts blame publically, and won’t back down if I push back, forcing me to either accept the “fault” in front of our supervisor or push the conversation to a passive aggressive, awkward argument. An example might be, if a project is delayed, hint that it was because I didn’t get him a widget he needed, despite him not asking me for the widget until the day after the deadline or the day it was due. If I say that, he’ll be like, “Well you knew I was working on the teapot!” or just escalate it some way that it becomes this big confrontation in front of everyone.

    Another example is saying I didn’t inform him of the need for a new process. I’ll say, well I see you used the process two weeks ago, so you seemed to have known. And he’ll say, “I used it just because, not because I knew about the new process. But now that I know I’ll do it that way.” And since the conversation is verbal I have no record, and everyone in the room thinks I didn’t inform him, but I did!

    I have spoken to my supervisor about it and she says it’s not a big deal and that she knows these instances aren’t my fault. But I told her that I can’t come to her on every issue. Plus, I want to be able to resolve it myself. Any ideas? Tips or tricks? I think this stems from this person being very reluctant to accept perceived blame or admit fault for some reason. No idea why since we have a laid back work environment. I often take responsibility for failure and apologize, and am happy to do so if I’m at fault.

    1. ArtK*

      The next time you talk to your supervisor, start by saying that you appreciate that she isn’t snowed by his attempts. Then point out that his actions are likely affecting how others perceive you and that they don’t all have the same perspective that she does. In other words, this could be damaging your reputation and effectiveness at work. Point out that it *is* a big deal, or could become one. Ask for recommendations on how to manage this.

      As far as things done verbally that there isn’t any evidence for? Start creating evidence. Communicate things with him only in e-mail. After a conversation, send a “This is what we discussed, please correct me if I’m wrong about that” kind of e-mail. That puts him in the position of having to put his stuff in writing, which takes away a lot of his power.

      1. Dawn*

        After a conversation, send a “This is what we discussed, please correct me if I’m wrong about that” kind of e-mail.

        THIS TIME A MILLION!!!!

        When you’re working with a weasel you *have to* cover your butt like this. So even if it seems dumb, even if it seems pedantic, even if you feel silly, document every work-related conversation that you have with him in an email. If he comes to your desk to ask for whatever a day after the deadline and you give it to him then, immediately send him an email that’s like “Fergus, I gave you the widget you needed after you asked me for it at my desk just now. If you need anything else, please let me know.”

      2. Marcy Marketer*

        So the widget thing is in writing, but i guess I’m looking for how to deal with it in the moment. When he says “I delayed X because I was waiting for the widget,” that’s true. But also he wouldn’t have been waiting for widget if he had given me a due date and a few days notice. But if I say that in the moment, it becomes A Thing.

        And this guy isn’t a weasel. He’s a good coworker with just this one annoying problem of being really bad at admitting mistakes and accepting feedback, from people generally but also me specifically, I think because of the experience disparity.

        He only does this in front of my boss, not anyone outside our department.

        1. Anna*

          You can put it back on him and avoid getting sucked into his Thing. “Oh, I got your email about the widget on DAY AFTER PROJECT WAS DUE. I’ll definitely check to see if I missed your first email about it. Anyway…(directing it back to your boss) we completed the project and sent on the finished product.”

          Don’t get into a back and forth with him. State fact, move on.

          2. kms1025*

            document, document, document…and focus only on speaking factually with no emotion…and then move on

          3. Mela*

            And if doesn’t let you move on, act puzzled. “I don’t understand why you’re arguing with me on this” for the “Well you knew I was working on the teapot!”–again puzzled, “Why would that mean I should do the widget? I still need the request to come from you first.” With the unknown processes, act more concerned: “Oh, I had sent you an email a month ago outlining the new process. Let me resend it to you so we’re both on the same page.”

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Respectfully disagreeing with you. He is not a good coworker, he is a nightmare.

          I guess it depends on how much you can tolerate, but the public put downs need a shut down in my opinion.

          How about asking him to discuss the matter with you after the meeting or in private?

          Perhaps you can find times where you see a recurring pattern and you can say, “We had a similar mix up before. Let’s get together later and figure out a plan so we can stop having these mix ups.” Ask for a plan each time you see recurring problems. Be as nice as pie, but insist that the two of you craft a plan.

          Or if you do not mind turning the tables a bit, maybe you can meet with him in private and tell him that yelling at you publicly does not reflect well on him. You know he does good work and you would hate to see his rep damaged by others misconceptions.

          OTH, you might solve the problem by saying, “How come you only mention problems to me when we are in front of our boss?” But say it in front of the boss.

  27. TheLazyB*

    This week I feel like I’ve caught up on my inbox for the first time since October. Literally.

    I’ve got tons to do now but that’s ok, because I know what it all is. I was hugely anxious about it having got so out of control but everyone kept telling me to drop everything and do x or y or z.

    Also, this is the first full week I’ve done since mid November and it was actually fine. So that’s good too.

    Just needed to get it off my chest, but any yays much appreciated :)

    1. Josie Prescott*

      Yay! It feels so good to be caught up on your inbox. I know that feeling of worrying there’s something important buried in there you’ve missed.

    3. caledonia*

      Yay! My inbox is slightly jealous….
      (As someone inclind to worry and fret, I dislike an inbox with loads of emails in it).

      YAY! (again)

  28. Shabu Shabu*

    Anyone else get telemarketing calls at work? My phone number is different from everyone else’s and I don’t think the number is indicated as a business line so I get anywhere from 2 to 10 telemarketing calls a day.

    I always answer, “(State) Department of Teapots” and 70% they just hang up or panic and yell “wrong number!”

    I’ve already asked my IT what they can do (they are the first line of defense in this case since our phone, computer, and internet are tied together). I tried to add my number to the do not call line but when I call outside lines, my number shows as Private. I think I can enroll online, but I have to give them my email? Fiddlesticks.

    1. Emily*

      I get telemarketing calls at work, but not nearly so many! Maybe 2-3 per week.

      I added my (home) number to the Do Not Call list but I don’t remember having to give my email (and I signed up online). Maybe they changed that?

    2. SophieChotek*

      Yes you can enroll online at DoNotCall[dot]Gov.
      No idea if it actually “works”
      I think to sign-up you do need to give the number you want to register plus an email…
      if work related can;t you give work-email
      or just go to google and make up a “throw-away
      email?

      1. ArtK*

        My experience is that it doesn’t work, at least not for the telemarketers that I get. Sometimes 3-5 a day offering “free estimates” for “home improvement.” Often using bogus company names “The Home Center of My Town,” when there is no “Home Center.” Pointing out that I’m on the DNC hasn’t helped. I had one person say “Yes, I have the DNC right here in front of me…” (my reply was nastily sarcastic.) I had one tell me “Oh, honey. Nobody obeys that.” Gee, color me surprised.

        That said, it’s worth a try. Perhaps there are other, more ethical, telemarketers out there.

        1. Drew*

          A lot of telemarketers are now spoofing their caller IDs, anyway. The DNC was a good idea at the time, but technology has rendered it basically toothless.

      2. Emi.*

        I’m on that DNC list and I still get spam calls. On the last one (number blocked), I said, “Please put me on your do-not-call list,” and the guy said, “Yes, of course I will do that, ma’am, but first will you give me a blowjob?”

          1. Emi.*

            I know, right? To put the icing on the cake, between traffic noise and his accent, I didn’t understand what he was saying–all I caught was “job” and it was allegedly some sort of survey, so I thought he was asking about my actual job. I kept saying “What?” and he kept repeating it, until finally he said “Blowjob, B-L-O-W-J-O-B, do you know what that is?”

          1. Not So NewReader*

            “Will you stay on the line one more second? The police/FBI almost have this call traced. You’re the one with the ransomware that everyone is looking for, right?”

    3. Taylor Swift*

      My old work phone number was one digit off of the main contact line for two different departments. 70% of the calls I ever got were wrong numbers. I asked to have it changed, but nobody ever got around to it. I just left that position and I think my old boss is going to make sure it gets changed if somebody new gets hired.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I enrolled at work as well as at home. I have DNC bookmarked and I can quickly type in a number.
      DNC seems to do nothing. I think they have a crushing load of complaints.

      If I could just get rid of one particular robo-call I would be thrilled. Supposedly they are collecting on a debt. Well, one day I did all the press 1 or press 2 it asked me to do. I ended up having a won a vacation in the Bahamas for $500. It took 15-20 minutes to reach this point in the “conversation”. One time this place actually had a live person call my work number. I asked them to take me off their list and they said they would. They lied, of course.

      I guess the cable company here is making a list of known robo-callers and will be blocking those calls for customers who have their phone with the cable company. I kind of picture a computer melting down and smoke pouring off the top of it under the stress of sorting all these numbers.

    5. Chaordic One*

      Where I worked we would seem to get them from some sort of auto-dialer that would dial every single number combination possible. The extensions in our office are all in sequential numerical order and so everyone in the office will get a call one after the other. It’s really annoying. When we know it’s a telemarketer or a robocall, we just let it go to voice mail and most of the time they won’t even leave a message.

      Years ago when we had a whole bunch of fax machines we’d get a whole bunch of telemarketing calls going to the fax machines. The fax machine would ring and then you’d hear the voice on the other end of the line saying “hello? hello?” What a pain.

  29. Roscoe*

    How much leeway do you think senior employees should get? Me and some colleagues were discussing this. I personally think the “less desirable” tasks should be given to the junior staff members more than the senior staff members since they have already put in their time. Others think that those tasks should be divvied out equally since no one likes them. What are your thoughts.

    1. Allypopx*

      I agree with you. One of the perks of moving up is the ability to delegate some of the less desirable tasks.

      That said if something is truly awful (like cleaning up human waste of any kind) I tend to do it as opposed to having my employees do it because I also think there’s a threshold of “I get paid more than you this should be my problem.” I don’t word it like that but that’s the concept I go by.

    2. NeedANap*

      I think it depends a lot on the value of everyone’s time and what the tasks are.

      Senior staff are senior because, in theory, they have more experience, more skills, and are working on more important or key projects.

      Junior members are junior because they have less experience, fewer skills, and therefore are the logical people to assign to the “less desirable” tasks.

      Think of it this way – are you going to pay a senior member $XXX to clean the kitchen, or a junior member $X to clean the kitchen?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I think that equal division of labor is an illusion. Even if you try very hard, the work just will not be divided up equally. It doesn’t work that way in marriages and it does not work that way in the work place.
      I do think that it is best practice not to encourage people to think that tasks are divided equally, this almost begs for arguing to follow.
      However, I don’t see a problem with putting disliked tasks on rotation so no one person does it all the time. OTH, boring, repetitive work might be divided between two people.
      I have NO patience for someone with seniority who lords it over junior people that they do not have to do X or Y anymore because they are “senior”.
      And as another person has already said, I would (and have) cleaned up that bathroom mess rather than sending a junior person/subordinate to do it. There are some things that are just over the top and that in my opinion is one of them.

  30. ChildcareLogistics*

    So I started a new job last week, and my bosses have asked me to pick some training. It’s Oracle training, which is 5 days long (and pretty intense I hear). So they offer in-person classes and online classes. I’m not able to do the in-person classes because of child care logistics…my husband works night shift and can’t take time off right now, so it’s going to be very complicated to get a sitter for my toddler for basically 24/7 if I attend an in-person class somewhere else in the country (they’re not offering one in my city any time soon). My daughter is 2, so she’s a bit of a handful right now and doesn’t really sleep well if she’s not at home.

    I’m fine with taking a virtual class, but my question is, if my bosses ask if I’d rather do the in-person, how do I explain it? Is it okay to say my child care situation won’t allow it? I’m afraid of being seen like I’m going to be high-maintenance or someone who lets her personal life interfere with her work life. Am I just overthinking this? Thanks for your input!

    1. Murphy*

      Your personal life will interfere with your work life sometimes and anybody reasonable will understand that. Your reasons make perfect sense, so I wouldn’t be shy about it. Just say you’d prefer the online and tell them the truth if they ask why.

      1. ChildcareLogistics*

        Well that’s a good point. I’ve just had some bad coworkers where it seemed like ever day they had another reason why they were unable to come to work/stay at work, and I don’t want to be seen like that at a new job. Side note: I’m also the type of person who has to be forced to take vacation and stresses over every request for time off. So I definitely overthink things. :) Thank you!

    2. Undine*

      Start by saying you prefer virtual. If they push, since travel is required, I think it’s easy to say you’re not in a position where you can travel right now.

    3. Turtlewings*

      I think you’re overthinking it. They offer two choices because they want you to have two choices. I doubt your boss will give a single thought to why you’ve picked one over the other. If she does, the explanation that it works better for your childcare needs is perfectly unexceptional, and is probably one of the major reasons the virtual option exists.

    4. Demoralised*

      I think its different than usual as well because its in a different city.

      Presumably if it was in your city and you could do it within normal work hours it wouldnt be an issue. I’m presuming this on the grounds that you should be available to work your normal working hours.

      I would say something like “If it were here in our city yes but as its not and is further away that would mean a major change to my normal childcare arrangments. It would be a lot better for me to do it online.” That conveys you wont normally be difficult (though everyone should be reasonable that life happens) while getting the point across.

    5. TheLazyB*

      I work with a guy in his early 20s who does football training nearly every night. I have a small child and have to get extra childcare when I travel for work. We’re both treated very equally (and fairly) about our wishes not to travel too often or stay away overnight unless necessary. So employers like this do exist :)

    6. ChildcareLogistics*

      Thanks everyone for your comments! I’m also experiencing just some new job anxiety…I was in my last job for 7 years, so it’s quite the change. My new bosses have been very nice so far, and I really don’t have any reason to believe they’d put up a fuss about this, but I’m just anxious to impress.

  31. Amy The Rev*

    Just need to vent and confirm that this policy, while reasonable (I suppose) is nevertheless a bummer.

    I work as a temp in the admin offices of Teapot University. My city had a blizzard yesterday and so on Wednesday night, the head of HR sent out an email saying that non-core staff should stay home on Thursday (blizzard day), and that: “If you are not core staff, you will be paid for the day. For hourly staff, your supervisor will add the hours to your timecard. For salaried staff your timecard is auto-populated with your hours.” So there I was, thinking how great it was of TU to pay their admins for a snowday instead of making us use vacation days (which I don’t have, so I would just have to take the day unpaid otherwise), plus my supervisor emailed me Thurs morning to confirm that she didn’t expect me to WFH that day (which I knew already, since temps can’t WFH)…

    I called HR today to confirm that I should follow their policy and put the hours into my timesheet for the temp agency, and she informed me that the policy was only for actual TU employees, not temps. I’m not any worse off than I was Wednesday before the email went out, when I had assumed I’d have to take the day unpaid anyway…and yet it really stunk to get my hopes up and then find out I was gonna miss out on a full day’s pay after all. Plus I found out about 15 minutes later that I had been approved for food stamps (yay!) but that I was only going to get $16/month…which isn’t terrible, because that’s $4 extra per week that I can use, but obviously wasn’t the ideal outcome. Plus it seems as though the actual EBT card was either lost/delayed in the mail or potentially stolen. This week is just not my week.

    I’m so sick of being a temp and not having any paid vacation or paid federal holidays or WFH privileges during a storm or retirement benefits or sick days….I’m so, so sick of it, but I have to stick it out until there’s an opening in my field in my region. It takes a lot of mental energy to pretend to be looking forward to the 3-day weekend next weekend like everyone else in my office, and I’m just sick of it.

    1. sNOwday*

      I’m a federal government contractor and this is also the policy with my job. Employees employed by the government directly get paid for snow days and many have the option to WFH, but neither is the case for me. I can use PTO or take it unpaid. It’s a crappy policy and I’ve tried pushing back since there are other instances in which I can’t work for reasons I have no control over (like Inauguration Day) but won’t be paid for. So, while I don’t think it’s an entirely unreasonable policy, it’s not the first I’ve heard of it.

      I do get paid federal holidays, though, and your policy on that just seems unreasonable to me. I’m so sorry you’re struggling. I can only imagine how exhausting it must be.

    2. zora*

      Ugh, yeah, that is SOOOOO frustrating, but yes, I’ve had the same policy most places that I have temped. And omg do I feel you on the not getting paid for holidays. I have had so many holidays I didn’t get paid for. In fact, this December was the first holiday season I had paid in years and it was amazing. So, maybe that’s the upside, when you finally get paid holidays/vacation again, you will really appreciate it??? That’s all I got…

      Yes, though, that is common for temp positions. Also, for my dad, who works as a contractor to various Federal agencies, most of his positions are the same thing, no paid holidays, no paid snow days. Although, he has often had the option to work holidays anyway or somehow put in extra hours. But obviously for admin jobs that’s not usually an option.

      I’m sorry it is frustrating, though. You will get through this week, and it’s only a matter of time until you get a clergy job and won’t have to deal with this anymore. Good luck and good vibes!!

    3. BRR*

      I’m so sorry. My husband went through the same thing. His employer does this with all new hires in his department. He was a temp for over a year. Finally got converted to full time doing the exact same thing but with vacation days and insurance.

    4. Cryptic Critter*

      Some Temp Agencies do pay out vacation time and sick days if you’ve worked for them something like 1500 hrs consecutively. I temped for a year and a half for the same agency and was eligible for those benefits. Not all do this, but it’s worth looking into for yourself!

    5. Pineapple Incident*

      I’m sorry you’re in such a crappy position in a temp job like this- that policy is horse poo :/

      3 years ago I was working in an awful retail chain for an irresponsible boss – she couldn’t get it together to make our store’s schedule starting on Sunday any earlier than Friday night/Saturday daytime. My coworkers and I were at her mercy for any days we wanted off just praying she’d remember the reminders, with no PTO because she’d hired us all in as part-time though we routinely worked over the 32 hour minimum for full-time.. it sucks to be duped. It gets better eventually though, I promise- job after that one had PTO, but with crappy pay, and the one I just started is even better.

      Pulling for you Amy- hang in there!

  32. give me a second chance*

    I’m trying to leave my government job for the private sector and it is really, really tough. I applied for and interviewed at the company that makes some of our software one month ago – a rare opportunity that would be PERFECT for me and teach me new skills. However, I never heard back; I reached out to HR to see if the position was still open and never received a reply. Today I see that the job I applied for has been reposted; the job posting is exactly the same word-for-word as it was when I applied a month ago. Question: should I reapply? On the one hand, I feel like it’s obvious that they didn’t want me. On the other hand, I feel like “what’s the harm?” If I do reapply, what should I say in my cover letter or email to acknowledge that I interviewed a month ago but would like another shot?

    1. Turtlewings*

      I know it’s not what you want to hear, but they already decided against you. It would be a waste of everyone’s time for you to try again when neither your skills nor their needs have changed. If they can’t fill the position and decide to take another look at folks they’ve already interviewed, they know where to find you. Don’t waste your time.

    2. JobSeeker017*

      Give me a second chance, please don’t invest any further time or thought in this company.

      They (HR and hiring manager) behaved unprofessionally in not responding to your email. The company could have sent you a rejection letter, a simple one or two lines indicating that they were expanding their search for candidates with particular experience, or just stated they were still interviewing.

      The lack of response at all troubles me, particularly after you interviewed for the position.

      You’re a talented and qualified person who deserves to be treated with professionalism.

      Don’t let this experience take up valuable real estate in your mind. On to bigger and better opportunities!

  33. Gen*

    What’s the best way to address/cope with a manager who insists on talking about how much work the department has to do, and how urgent it is, for hours at a time? Other less senior managers have started emulating him so some days we get an hour long lecture about the work load, a thirty minute recap from someone else by which point he’s back for another go. It’s frustrating as he has us in for 14 hour days and weekends when some days he’s talked for nearly 4 hours!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      This is going to hinge on how much rapport you have with him / how much standing or seniority you have / and how open he is to feedback. Also, your relationship (if any) with his boss. Give me us that context and I’ll come back!

  34. orchidsandtea*

    Tips on getting other departments to make minor changes in habit? We need them to include the customer name in the email’s subject line. Since the Spouts and Handles departments now share a group inbox, it means 15 people have to open each email to see if it’s theirs.

    Whether I reply requesting this, draft a guide for how to get the fastest possible response, or go in person to say “Hey please do this,” the response is “Oh sure” + dismissal / doing it wrong every time.

    1. Murphy*

      Do you have folders for every person? Maybe when the first person opens it and sees that it’s not theirs, they could move it to the folder of whoever it belongs to. (Because unfortunately, you can’t make people follow directions, no matter how clear or insistent you are.)

      1. orchidsandtea*

        We only have folders for archived mail, but we tag items in the inbox with people’s names. But when we’re swamped (and we’re always swamped) it’s really easy to ignore an email that just says “#12345” because there’s a 14/15 chance it’s not yours. And that’s how time-sensitive things get missed.

    2. Sadsack*

      I would ask the other department’s leader to distribute a process improvement that your department now requires. Maybe go to that person to explain it initially, then follow up with an email that provides the details do he can send it to everyone else. This doesn’t sound like it should be a deal for them to start doing.

    3. Rache*

      How about sending it back to the originator and telling them it cannot be processed until the subject line is correct? Have everyone that monitors that inbox do the same thing. Granted, it’s still a pain and it’s additional work, but if they receive enough of those they may actually start remembering to do it?

      1. Ama*

        Yeah, it’s going to be a pain, but in my experience the only way to get some people to learn a new process is to not humor them when they do it wrong.

        1. orchidsandtea*

          You’re right, of course, and I do that. But if I’m gone, no one else does, which makes it hard to get traction.

          Consistency is hard with 15 people, and there’s probably no magic formula for getting other depts to cooperate unless our 15 are consistent first. I leave on maternity leave in a week. It’ll take them a while to replace me, and no one else has ownership of this. *sigh*

    4. fposte*

      Can you institute a reward system for compliance? $10 Starbucks card to everybody who hits a 95% compliance rate by the end of the month? That way you’re putting your thumb on the scale to weight it away from convenience and old habits.

    5. A Cataloger*

      Candy. I was in a (I’m guessing a smaller organization) and when I was trying to get people to consistently initial and date change forms, I kept a bag of mini-chocolates and created a thank you for initialing & dating the form note (about 12 or 16 to a page) and would put the note and chocolate in the mailbox of anyone who initialed and dated their forms. After awhile everyone was initialing and dating forms and I could stop the chocolate.

      Whatever you do good luck!

  35. Banana*

    I’m trying to figure out if my expectations are off or if this is standard practice:

    I’ve been in my job long enough that I deserve a promotion. This has been agreed to by my boss. However, I work in a department where, she says, we can only have X number of “senior” people. So, I won’t get promoted until one of them leaves.

    Now, I would completely understand this if the “senior” people had a different job, but in this context, the “senior” people do exactly the same job, with the same amount of responsibility and workload, as the “junior” people. (And if we’re being honest about things, in many cases the junior people do more.) So, basically, there are X number of people getting paid at the much higher “senior” rate, and X number of people getting paid at the “junior” rate, but we’ve all been here so long that we do 100% the same job. And all of the senior people were junior people a shorter amount of time than I have been (almost half the amount of time, in at least one case).

    It is not only a case of salary, but an entire different job category that would change my benefits package as well.

    Am I wrong to feel that this is unfair? When I brought it up with my boss, I got a reaction that made me feel like I was acting entitled and spoiled.

    1. Josie Prescott*

      This is not uncommon. They only need half the staff to be senior level, and have determined they are OK with having turnover from folks outgrowing their positions. They are paying for the level of employee they need, not the level of experience you have. It sucks, but it is what it is.

      1. Banana*

        Yeah, I guess you are right. At the same time they tell me “it is very important to us to retain people,” but obviously I am looking for another job and will leave ASAP because their actions aren’t really in line with what they are saying.

        1. College Career Counselor*

          Sure, it’s important for them to retain people. But if they’re getting “senior experience” work out of a junior-paid person, there’s no incentive for them to increase your pay. Hence that phrase should actually read “important to retain people at the lower pay scale” since it helps their bottom line..

    2. Judy*

      This is generally a standard practice where I’ve worked. There’s a pipeline of people, and the expectation is up or out. Although usually the benefit package change happens when you go from individual contributor to manager.

    3. krysb*

      This is not uncommon, but it’s a bad policy that hinders people in their career paths, forcing them to look elsewhere to seek that fulfillment.

  36. shep*

    My position is one that requires me to wear many hats, and some not that often. I learned earlier this week that I made some mistakes on some files a few years ago. I was still pretty new, but these files are things I only put together a few times a year, so I am STILL not entirely comfortable with them.

    Anyway, these affect our productivity numbers and may require some further action and management overrides. My supervisor has been very nice about the whole thing and said it’s not a huge deal, but I’m worried (1) this will tarnish my reputation a little anyway, and (2) that I’ve made similar errors on a few other files. So I’m frantically digging through my old files to make sure I haven’t missed anything, and I’m betting there are at least a few files with the same issues.

    This is the first time I’ve had any real performance issues in any position I’ve had. I’m embarrassed and worried my supervisor will think less of me. I’ve gotten excellent performance reviews in the past, and feel like I do great work. Part of me feels like this is an overreaction (I admit I am a worrier!), but I also know myself well enough to know that I just have to let myself worry and try to ride out the worry-storm until I feel like I’m on more solid ground.

    I suppose this is less of a question and more of a vent, but if anyone has been in similar situations (and is likewise a worrier!), I would love to hear how you dealt with the worry.

    1. Banana*

      Part of your reputation will be how you handle mistakes. So focus on doing a great job of addressing the mistake: make any fixes you can, take responsibility for it, put a plan in place to that it does not recur, etc. You can’t change that you made a mistake, but you have an opportunity here to make a good impression with how you handle it.

    2. writelhd*

      I too wear many hats and have some things I only do annually. I have definitely looked back on work I did in the previous year and realized I made a mistake, once one that would affect a public-facing marketing report. I absolutely internalized the hell out of it for days. But I explained what happened and published a correction and an explanation. It sucked, and I may be facing having to do that again…but I really have no choice but to just try to keep moving on and be as honest and thorough of a worker as I can.

      I find that when I do things once a year, writing myself clear notes on HOW to do it is very important. I wasted a lot of time looking an excel spreadsheet going “huh, how’d I come up with THAT?” without documenting what I’d done and why I’d done it.

      1. shep*

        Thank you! This is so helpful and reassuring. Ironically, I have several notes and example files, but there are a few issues with those–the examples were outdated to begin with when I started learning the processes, and we’ve tweaked the processes further since–so my notes are a bit of a jumble. I think you’re exactly right that I need to make myself clearer notes (AND making sure to clearly mark and discard the old ones once everything’s put together!).

  37. Beth*

    A year and a half ago, I was contacted by a recruiter about a position at her company, and was told if I was interested to contact a specific HR Associate. It sounded pretty interesting, but my manager had just gone on medical leave and I knew it would have been pretty awful to leave her in the lurch, so I told the recruiter that it sounded great, but the timing wasn’t great, and to let me know if a similar position opened in the future.

    This week, I saw that the position was open again (there are multiple people at the company who do this work, so doesn’t necessarily mean someone left after a year and a half). I looked on LinkedIn and saw she was still with the company, and was promoted to the HR Associate position I mentioned above. I wrote a cover letter and mentioned her name in it, but to my dismay there was nowhere in the application process for a cover letter, and I couldn’t backtrack to combine the files with the resume. I can’t even look at my submission with their system.

    I guess my question is.. should I reach out to the recruiter (now HR Associate) who contacted me a year and a half ago and let her know I applied to the position? I’d be replying to her LinkedIn email, so she’d see the history that she’d previously sent me a message. But, it WAS a year and a half ago, so.. I don’t know how weird it would be.

    Thoughts?

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      I say go for it. I would write your message as if she no longer has the old message for reference, though. Some extra “hey remember me? You contacted me 18 months ago about XYZ job” etc.

  38. Bigglesworth*

    Hey everyone! I have a question for those who have ever done electrical or blue-collar work. My spouse is an electrical apprentice and started at his current company May 2016. He just found out yesterday that the journeyman he’s been working underneath has been removing any overtime my husband has earned before doing the final submission of the timesheet. He noticed that it happened this week when his journeyman told him to not put the overtime on the paysheet (so he can save the time up for a rainy day) and he did it anyway since he had worked that time. He confronted the journeyman about it after he realized what had happened and the journeyman said that my husband doesn’t listen to instructions when filling out timesheets. When asked if he’s done this before, he admitted that he had. We don’t know if this has been on every paycheck since he started or if it’s just happened a few times.

    When he took this issue to the big boss, the response was, “I’ll look into it to see if there is any ill-intent. However, you have to give back to the company one in a while. If you just take and take and take, eventually you won’t have a job.” My stance is that he needs to report this to the Dept. of Labor, but he most likely will be fired if he does so. Plus, the fact that this has been going on since he started at this company has us royally ticked off. It’s a smaller electrical company if that makes any difference (but still over 15 employees).

    Anyway, are there any steps we should be taking or pieces of advice you all might have for us? We’re trying to figure this out, but aren’t sure what to do. Any help would be appreciated.

    1. ArtK*

      Well, in most states, what is happening is illegal. You might want to have your husband point that out, assuming you’re in such a place. They’re obligated to pay him for the hours that he works. If the company doesn’t like OT, then they need to send him home before it goes that far.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        We live in Oklahoma and (if I’m understanding the laws correctly) it’s illegal. What is concerning to me is that when he mentioned that it was illegal and went against labor laws, the response was essentially, “Do you want to keep you job?”

          1. Bigglesworth*

            That’s really good to know. Thank you! I have the feeling that they’ll make his life miserable, but that won’t be any different than how it is right now.

    2. Lillian Styx*

      Is it union? If so, start there with the union rep. Although I can’t imagine any union letting a company get away with this. Anyway, it’s big time illegal and he should talk to an employment attorney for sure.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        It’s not union. He’s working with a non-union apprenticeship program that places students with employers. Although we have a friend in a union who has been trying to recruit him and this may just push him over the edge to join.

    3. Beautiful Loser*

      WOW! I have a friend who tracks her hours but her boss only allows her to submit 40 per week and says the rest will be “banked” for future vacation time. She is in the same boat and needs to report to the dept of labor. However, she also needs her job and paycheck despite being ripped off on a weekly basis.

      If your husband can get a job somewhere else and this won’t affect his employment reputation (though he is totally in the right), I say go ahead and report to the dept of labor.

      1. Isben Takes Tea*

        Right–it’s a ripoff because overtime is time-and-a-half, so “future vacation time” is not legal compensation.

      2. Bigglesworth*

        I think he’s going to talk to the electrical school he’s attending to see if they can place him in a different company. One of the things that we’re having to keep in consideration is that I’ve applied to different law schools and there is a high chance we will be moving out of state soon. He’s going to ask his contact at the school if another company would mind keeping him on for only 5 or 6 months.

        1. vpc*

          Definitely do this — I bet the program coordinators at the school would be interested to know that the company is violating labor laws with their students! If nothing else it may save other students from being placed with this company in the future.

    4. Nan*

      Woah!!! They are stealing your husband’s money. I’d gather all the proof, and contact the Dept of Labor. I don’t think (but don’t know so) that they can fire him for reporting unethical and illegal business practices. They could probably make his work life miserable, though. Is he in the Union? They might be able to help, too.

      I wonder if he’s entitled to interest on the back pay? That could be fun.

      People who lie and cheat and steal burn my biscuits. I’d go get ’em!

      1. Bigglesworth*

        I’ve been trying to figure out what kinds of backpay he’d be owed. He said that he hasn’t reported 15,30 or even 45 minutes of overtime because he knew it would be frowned on, but I told even that’s illegal. My question is how can we prove it?

    5. Emlen*

      It depends on your state’s laws, but in most of them, retaliation for this kind of complaint is against the law, and your spouse would get their job back, along with lost wages. That company is committing wage theft and should be reported. Once a wage theft report is filed, the company would have a hard time convincing the labor board that any negative actions against your spouse weren’t retaliatory.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Do you know what kinds of documentation we need to have in order to file a wage theft claim? Does he need to go to his HR department and ask for copies of all of his timesheets?

      1. Bigglesworth*

        We could afford it in the short-time. We did have 6 months of expenses saved up, but we had to dip into it to fix the transmission and brakes in my car (that was a fun Christmas Eve surprise. :p ) We’re also looking at moving out of state this summer and would like some of that saved up. :/

        1. Bigglesworth*

          Also, there’s a chance he could move to a different company, but I’m not sure if someone would take him on for only 4 or 5 months.

          1. LawCat*

            So he will be leaving in 4-5 months anyway?

            I think you have to weigh whether it’s worth the risk of getting fired by reporting now, or worth waiting until after leaving to make a wage claim.

            1. Bigglesworth*

              That’s exactly what we’re trying to figure out right now. We’ve never had to deal with this before, so we’re not sure if he needs to report them now to the DoL and risk being fired (I know retaliation is illegal, but it’s still a concern) or if he needs to gather some kind of documentation and report them after we leave.

              There’s a chance that I’ll go to a school here, but I’m interested in working in the DC area after graduation and have been accepted into Washington & Lee, George Mason, and American, so I’m strongly leaning in that direction.

              1. LawCat*

                Does the DOL have a website or hotline of some kind that you can call (like just to get the info and not formally make a claim)?

                Whether your spouse would quality for unemployment benefits and how much is also a factor. Check out your state’s unemployment guidelines as well.

                It’s a tough spot, but fortunately, a temporary one!

                1. Bigglesworth*

                  I didn’t think about it, but I’ll look into once I get home. Thanks for the ideas and support! I really do appreciate it. It sucks, but like you said, it’s temporary.

    7. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      I had a boss I loved once get fired for changing the hours on someone’s timesheet because they worked unapproved overtime.

      1. Rebecca Too*

        I had a boss get fired for changing hours worked to PTO on employee’s timecards so that he could make the weekly payroll budget. And I was the one who caught it and reported him. To think that he was getting quarterly bonuses for “making payroll” while stealing PTO from employees really enraged me. I went to HR and he was gone a week later.

      2. zora*

        yeah, I’ve had to explain to employers that they can’t do this. They can be mad, they can fire the person for working unapproved overtime. But they still have to pay the person for those hours. Sorry, dude, but it’s the law.

      3. Bigglesworth*

        Wow! The supervisor is really close to the big boss, so I don’t think he will get fired. This isn’t the first time this company has done something fishy with funds, though. I just hope that this time some change will happen.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Pretty normal from what I have seen of service jobs.
      They either talk about being nice and playing along OR they give you some convoluted thing that you are actually salary and you have an hourly rate for bookkeeping purposes only. This means if you have to work 75 hours per week and get paid for 40, oh well.

      From where I am sitting, this is going on everywhere in service jobs. There’s been court cases where the employees won, but the companies keep doing it anyway.

  39. Candi*

    I was reading the norovirus letter and comments, and I came across a lot of comments about daycare and their policies involving sick kids.

    The comments about the draconian daycare policies bothered me.

    I worked in a daycare a decade ago. Yes, we had those policies.

    They came from state health. Not following them would have gotten our license suspended or yanked.

    It sucks with all the suckiest suckitude that following the state’s public health guidelines means pitting daycare worker livelihoods against the livelihoods of others, particularly hourly low-level workers with minimal benefits.

    But the daycare only has a choice in how it handles the situation, whether icily, sympathetically, reasonably or overboard, or otherwise. They can’t ignore it.

    And no, the state policies, even now, have no flexibility for cause. With, say, vomiting, whether it’s doctor-documented anxiety, a kid getting into something they’re sensitive/allergic to (but they’re fine once their stomach evicts the stuff), or ‘oh crap, break out the bleach’, it doesn’t matter to the state regulations. Which puts the daycares in an unenviable position.

    It also sucks for every parent who had to suffer a daycare or government entity’s policies because an unreasonable -or desperate- parent broke manners and common sense. I’ve seen both try to fool or exploit us when I was working, and regardless of the thoughtlessness or sadness of the cause, the result was the same – the spreading of disease through the daycare. A parent tilting heavily to the thoughtlessness and unreasonable end of the spectrum -dropping off a heavily medicated kid who started throwing up and racking up a 100+ F fever about two hours in, and then was completely incommunicado until pickup time- was the final nail in a long line of incidences that led to my boss deciding to close the daycare.

    (The parent had not signed permission to transport, and the child’s condition did not meet state standards of override and transport anyway. And the parent blatantly said she didn’t want to use her PTO when she picked up.)

    2. Creag an Tuire*

      I’m not sure anybody was really slamming the daycares in that thread, though — just pointing out why lots of people would not assume “kid sent home from daycare” = “kid too sick to be in public”.

      Thanks for your perspective, though — even leaving aside the inflexibility of state regs, I totally get why a daycare with small babies needs to be “draconian” with sick policies, even if it’s meant me taking a couple of “sick” days when the kid is healthy, bored, and climbing on the furniture. :D

      1. Candi*

        Not slamming. More: “Why? It makes it hard for us. I understand not getting other kids sick, BUT”. That was the tone I kept perceiving.

    3. anon for this*

      I’m glad you brought this up because it’s a point that often gets lost. I’ve had kids in daycare for seven years now. Are the fever/sickness policies — which, as you pointed out, often come from the State — occasionally a pain in the butt for our family? Yes, of course. However, the rules are there for a reason and I’m personally glad for them. I understand why parents try to skirt the rules, but it’s such a bad idea from a public health standpoint. It ticks me off, a little bit, when I hear about people who knowingly take a sick kid to daycare, even if I understand the reasons why they feel like they have to.

      1. Candi*

        My hours for the day ended while the discussion was ongoing, so I filled in my relief and left. When I came in the next day, my boss told me that the mother said the child had been sick since Saturday, and she figured he wasn’t contagious anymore.

        I understand about health care finances (early 2000s) and all that, but… 100+ fever for two days running? With vomiting? And he’s not at ER, Urgent Care, the doctor? (We have a lot of options and heavy advertising on such in this county. Including one hospital system that advertises its sliding scale payment plans.) I just can’t… I just don’t get it. It might just be me, but I don’t get it.

    5. Overeducated*

      I think the problem here isn’t day cares, it’s employers that offer so little sick leave that parents aren’t just happy to pick up a sick kid every time, and a culture that sees that as a lack of dedication to your job. I hate sending my kid in when he’s just a bit under the weather but not sick enough to have to stay home, and I hate going to work with a cold myself, but this is a choice I have to make sometimes if I don’t have the leave. I never blame or resent the day care.

      1. Candi*

        Thank you. There were a lot of parents who did blame us. We took DSHS kids, which is another layer of bureaucratic fun in its own right, and all but two mothers always blamed us for the overlapping policies. (Way to help with stereotypes, too. /snark)

        Particularly insulting was when they would tell me I didn’t understand what it was like to be on welfare, etc. DSHS was paying for my daycare so I could work! I’d been there.

        Great exercise in not going off, really.

      2. LilyPearl*

        Here (UK) nursery illness policies are not centrally mandated, and it’s frustrating when they are more restrictive than the public health guidance. Conjunctivitis is the classic example: it’s usually viral and antibiotic drops are not generally needed, but some nurseries won’t have the child back without them being prescribed drops. I don’t want to be bounced into an inappropriate prescription, but nobody wants a parent to have to take time off unnecessarily. Cue lots of phoning, printing off of guidelines – it’s a massive hassle for such a minor condition!

    6. Kinsley M.*

      I don’t think it’s so much resentment for instances of real sickness. But I know daycares that have called because kids had a 99 degree fever thirty seconds after waking from their nap. My sister-in-law changed daycares because they were calling her weekly to come get my niece (who was only attending half days anyways). Niece was never sick, just a little hot after a nap and in fact barely ever still had a ‘fever’ by the time SIL got there anyways.

      1. Candi*

        That was just being ridiculous. I worked with the babies (3 months to 2 years), and procedure even for the littlest was at least two temperatures taken no less than fifteen minutes apart. Cool down procedures like removing hot clothing were a given.

      2. blackcat*

        Fever guidelines drive me bananas anyways, because there’s no accounting for a person’s baseline temp.

        People’s temperatures generally fall on a bell curve (though there’s a longer tail at the low end). Some people are normally at 98.6. For that person, a temperature of 99 or even 99.5 isn’t appreciably elevated. Some people are normally at 99, in which case they don’t really have a fever until over 100.

        My normal body temperature is 97.0,* which is very low, but many people have a normal temperature between 97.5 and 98.0. For these folks, and especially for me, a temperature of 99.5 is a significant fever.

        I get way places like daycares have to have a cut off, but anything below 100 will get warm kids running extra hot. At the same time, 100 will miss kids who are like me and run super cold. It’s hard, but I wish for the sake of parents, there was more flexibility. Humans are not standardized machines–there is a lot of natural variation. Over 104 is bad news for everyone (we all have the same proteins, and they denature at high temps), but 99? 100? Depends so much!

        *I also have freakishly low blood pressure (~70/40–many people would be unconscious at that, but I’m fine). A nurse once accused me of being a vampire.

  40. Disgruntled Supervisor*

    My employer has an extremely strict attendance policy that recently became even stricter. The policy is points-based–Employees get a written warning if they accrue four points in a rolling 90 day period, and 10 or more points in a year may result in termination.

    The old rules said that arriving two hours or more past your scheduled shift start or leaving two hours or more before your scheduled end of shift is half an attendance point. Employees could avoid getting the half point altogether if they informed a supervisor (me) at least 24 hours in advance. We all agreed that this was strict but fair.

    The new rules only allow thirty minutes’ leeway and counts any late arrival/early departure as a full point, EVEN IF THEY CLEAR IT WITH A SUPERVISOR. This isn’t just completely unreasonable, it also encourages employees who need to cut their work day short unexpectedly to take the whole day off– if the consequences for being 45 minutes late to work are the same as missing the whole day, why not just call off?

    I want to take a stand against this policy because I think it’s unfair and a waste of time. I had been consciously objecting to this by not enforcing it (similar to how jurors who feel a law is unjust can abstain from voting), but my boss says I have to do it. Pushing back was no use– her attitude is “rules are rules, do as you’re told”.

    How would you suggest I rebel?

    1. Demoralised*

      Hmm I dont know. The responsible adult side of me says you should contact hr or whoever has made this policy and say something like “Hi just want to clarify on this rule. If my team member is 31 minutes late they will get the same mark as if they missed the whole day? Even if its prearranged?

      Just checking as it seems like this policy will incentivise staff to not come in if they were going to be late or need to leave early. It also seems like they would be less likely to warn us of needing time off if it will be treated the same which could make scheduling cover an issue…” and see if they have thought through this and what they say.

      If they come back do it anyway then the snarky side of me would quietly encourage my team not to come in. If they say “hey i will be late” or “I need to leave early” I would point out it will be treated the same and encourage them to stay home. Make the point of how unfair it all is. But thats not super mature.

      I would also get a new job.

      1. zora*

        ooo, I kind of like what you said the snarky side would do. Basically keep encouraging your staff to just take the entire day. And then DON’T hustle yourself or have your other staff make up the work. You’d basically be initiating a Slowdown (similar to a strike). Maybe the higher ups would get the point when they see the impact on the bottom line, that having less bodies means less work is getting done, deal with it.

        But this sounds ridiculous, and I’m really impressed that you as a supervisor want to push back. Well done!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      How do they plan to keep help? The costs of training new hires can be high. It really does not make sense to drive people out the door.

      I guess I would try to break through that hard shell and ask her what she thinks of the policy personally. You might have to ask this question in a couple different ways. I’d see if I could get her to cave a bit. Then I would grab that opening, “Oh so this does concern you, too? Well, what are we going to do about it? Our department might fall apart and then we will not complete our work.”
      See if you can wear her down. If she said rules are rules, do as you are told, it could be that she does not believe it either. That sounds like a pretty robotic answer, like she is trying to detach herself from the problem.

  41. Nervous Accountant*

    I got some surprising news yesterday. Not good, not awful but interesting….and I”m wondering if I had any impact on the decision. I REALLY wish I could be more specific, but maybe once it’s worn off.

    On another note……67 days to go!

  42. De Minimis*

    Potential awkwardness. We have a very eager long-term temp who is working in a special category with the agency–they basically are salaried/benefited employees with the agency and are supposed to be in long-term positions. The temp has done a great job and we’re about to have a vacancy in their department, but the agency has an extremely onerous conversion fee since they really don’t want us to hire anyone working in that category. I’ve told a few of the people in the department about it, and I think they agree that they don’t really want to consider the temp for that reason. But the temp of course is excited about the upcoming vacancy and plans to apply.

    I’m having to really play my cards close to the vest and not express any enthusiasm one way or the other, because I know they are more than likely going to hire someone else.

    1. Beautiful Loser*

      How heartbreaking and unfair for the temp. Is there any way around this conversion fee? Is the temp even aware of this fee and the fact that it exists is what will hold her back from a permanent position in your company?

      1. De Minimis*

        I doubt if the temp has any idea, they aren’t part of the hiring paperwork process with the agency.

        I’m going to try to point out that the cost of the fee, salary, and benefits are about the same as the current amount we’re paying to the agency for a year, but they might be more likely to just hire someone else and then discontinue the temp assignment.

        There also may be other reasons they might not want to hire this person, I don’t work directly with this department but I know the work quality has been great.

    2. Bigglesworth*

      Is there any way you could let the temp know? Even if that position is filled and/or her role in your company ends, I would view it as a kindness if someone let me know if I was in her position. She may be looking for something more permanent and doesn’t realize this is holding her back.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Going the other way, how much does it cost to do a search for a new employee? I bet the company does not realize all the hidden costs here. There is also training costs. And if this person does not work out, guess what, start over. This means more costs.
      If you have the boss’ ear maybe you can put in a plug or two for her.

      1. De Minimis*

        We’re a small nonprofit so we’re pretty aware of the costs, though we also had a new hire last year go spectacularly bad so they may be also aware of the risks of a totally unknown quantity.

        The conversion fee is 50% of the yearly salary, so it’s pretty significant. It total cost would be less than just keeping the temp for a whole year, but it’s a lot more than hiring someone else instead. I think the head of the department may not be aware of the conversion fee, though I know other people there know about it.

  43. BRR*

    Any advice for when you’re asked to create metrics for yourself when your job is only partially measurable with solid numbers? I’m being asked by senior management to establish some metrics to hit and while I do not have a problem with metrics or tracking what I do, my job contains a lot of responsibilities that aren’t easily trackable with numbers. Some of my responsibilities are easily measured though and I think that is misleading leadership in this situation.

    I’m trying to push back because if you’re only looking at my easily-trackable metrics it leaves out a lot of what I do. Additionally, the things that are easily trackable can vary due to organizational needs (one month I need to make more handles than spouts). I’ve suggested setting goals, of which some will have solid number to look at but this doesn’t seem to be sticking.

    I want all of my accomplishments to be noticed and I do not want to be constrained by a set of hard numbers that I have to hit. There’s not really an industry standard I can provide or information that I can give that strongly backs up what I’m trying to say.

    1. Demoralised*

      Could you try providing them with a list of things you are havig difficulty putting into numbers and then ask for their input on how to make metrics on it?

      Maybe if they see the list and try to come up with it themselves they will realise how difficult what they are asking is.

      Also have you thought of how you would like your success to be measured? Having an idea of this would be a good way to fight your corner.

  44. Demoralised*

    How do you recover from a bad manager?

    I was hired at my job by an awesome manager who left 3 months later to move up at a different department in a different office of our organisation (we cant all fit in one building as we have nearly 1000 employees).

    The interim manger they had for 3 months was terrible. He was sexist. He would share employees private information with others. He made racist comments. He admitted to trying to make it a hostile environment so people would quit. He threatened to not let me pass probation (which is oddly 7 months for some unknown reason) because of a disability I hadn’t even missed work for because I might someday need time off. So Illegal. I was mostly done putting together all the evidence to make a formal grievance against him when they got rid of him.

    The senior managers fired him after 3 months. Prior to him I got high reviews (and still do), made suggestions for process changes that were implented are working great. I really tried to improve things and create a nice environment and my boss loved my ideas and having a fresh set of eyes.

    The horrible manager killed all of that. He got two brilliant colleagues to quit. He made workig here a nightmare. He has been gone for 6 months now and my morale still isnt improving. I still dont want to make suggestions for improvements or changes. My company says it has a dont just do it for traditions sake attitude, but I am just doing things as tradition even if its backwards because I cant be motivated to make the case for change.

    I keep reminding myself they used to be really good, that its not them its him, but I cant regain the enthusiasm I lost. I’m having to put a lot of effort into maintaining a high output for my professional reputation and not to let my standards slip. But its very going through the motions.

    How do you recover from a bad boss? Or should I cut my loses and move on?

    1. Summerisle*

      I’m so sorry you had this experience; it sounds awful.

      In my opinion a new start at a new workplace might be the clean break you need. However, I know that’s easier said than done and it would be a shame if you’re otherwise happy in your job.

    2. Staggeringly*

      I think switching companies would be a mistake. They have demonstrated good judgment in firing that manager so fast.

    3. neverjaunty*

      It is them. This guy was making bigoted comments and being an ass and they let him stay for three months?

      In your shoes I’d move on.

    4. tigerStripes*

      Have you had a vacation for a while? It might be good to work on self-care, getting away from work after it’s over (mentally and physically), etc.

      Is there a boss you know who knows what happened and why it took 3 months to get a racist, sexist manager out? Sometimes knowing why makes it easier to deal with.

      Can you give yourself some time to just get stuff done and not worry too much about innovation for a while? Give yourself a break and be OK with doing a good job – give your brain a rest for a while.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Good suggestions from tigerStripes. Do you have an HR department you can talk to? Is there an employee assistance program? Some short-term counseling might be helpful.

  45. Tempest*

    So, I have a job interview in about 2 hours, that I don’t want to attend because I don’t think the commute will be reasonable for me to take on should they offer me the job. But I’m miserable here and when the recruiter asked me if I was interested my ‘let me out let me out’ took over and I said yes, even though I think it would actually be a bad move for my career and happiness. So I’m going to go with an open mind and see what I think of the place and people and spend the weekend thinking about if I could manage the commute should they offer me the job. I can’t cancel at such short notice anyway as it would be a terrible thing to do. And it does pay significantly better than current job.

    My horrible co-worker is still horrible. Spends about 2 hours a day just in the ether and as we’re in front line customer service, his lack of presence does directly affect my ability to do my job well. He also doesn’t return contacts promptly or do what he says he will for other staff or customers. This is obvious to the boss too, but boss is on vacation and has a pathalogical fear of confrontation so will take a softly softly aproach which doesn’t work with someone who will push the envolope as far as can get away with time after time. ARGH. The worst part of it all is I feel dragged down into low standards by virtue of the fact clients might get me this time and colleague next and assume those low standards fly here or are how we opporate. And as much as I tell myself it’s none of my business, knowing someone else gets an extra 2 hours of paid time off a day because they’re willing to just see what they can get away with and get away with it is making my frustration all the worse.

    So I need out but I don’t need out bad enough to take the first thing I’m offered, and now just like BLAH! Its Friday night and I’d rather just be going home. :(

    1. Beth*

      I have worried about this with jobs before, too, but you may never even be offered the position and won’t even have to worry about it. If anything, it will be good for you to brush up on your interview skills, especially in a no-pressure situation like this where you don’t believe you’ll want the job.

      1. Tempest*

        That’s why I’m going with an open mind! I might actually think it’s the best thing since sliced bread and they might not even like me. As you say, if nothing else it’s an interview under my belt. I’ve been here six years so it’s been awhile. I have a meeting with our development manager in my current group to brush up my LDP and talk about where I’m going soon as well. I know I need to have patience rather than rush headlong just to get out of this situation but I do want out of this situation. Adulting is so hard!

    2. Demoralised*

      Do the interview with an open mind. But don’t accept just to get out.

      At the very least its interview practice, and this is reassurance that your skills are desirable elsewhere. Use this interview as a motivator to get more. Like a “hey I am capable and other places want me now just need to find the right place” type motivation.

      Also I know this doesnt help any but your work and manager suck. And you sound like an awesome colleague. I hate colleagues who disappear into nowhere and see how little they can get away with.

  46. Persephone Mulberry*

    The big boss at my office has casually floated the idea of switching us three non-exempt staff to 4 10s. While I LOVE the idea of having a full weekday off every week, my childcare constraints make it impossible for me to work a 10-hour day. I’m hoping that I can counter-propose, for myself at least, 4 9’s and a half day.

    1. Drew*

      It’s worth trying! My office switched to 4 10s several years ago, but several employees are still on a more traditional five-day schedule and some people do the hybrid you’re proposing. You have great reasons for wanting it and I can’t imagine a reasonable boss saying no if it means he’s likely to lose a good worker.

      I predict you will cherish that half-day with no one around to distract you from getting your work done.

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        You’re right about the quiet office – I flex one day a week by an hour already and I love being in the office before everyone else. But no such luck as to get the office to myself for an entire half day…boss would want us staggering our schedules so that 2/3 of us are here on any given day. My main concern is that he would decide that if everybody can’t do 4/10 that we may as well stick with 5/8.

    2. Mike*

      What about a 9-80?

      I had this at the refinery and loved it. M-T 9 hour days. Every other friday, an 8 hour day. The opposite friday was off.

        1. Mike C.*

          I’ve seen exemptions made for special schedules like these. They’re certainly common enough in my state (WA).

          1. Kj*

            I did that! Of course, it being my job, I ended up working from home part of the day on my day off. But still, it was nice.

  47. Trouble getting started*

    I work at a job that’s currently restructuring its job responsibilities on a company-wide scale. I supervise a small team whose job roles are going to change significantly in the near future, and I’m starting to think it’s time to move on, because I suspect that the end goal is to eliminate those positions.

    However, I don’t know what I want to do next. I’d like to go back into the field where I got my degree (I’m currently in a related field with transferable skills, but it’s not at all the same), but I’m intimidated by the fact that I have been out of that field for a few years, and I know that it’s harder to get back into a field once you’ve been out of it. When people will ask me what kind of things I want to do, or what my dream job would be, I just don’t know.

    When I think about applying for jobs, or start looking at jobs, I start to panic (not panic attacks, but I will get anxious and sometimes cry). I know that some of this is fear – this was my first job after school, and I’ve been here for five years with a lot of the same people, so I’m comfortable. To change jobs (which could include relocating and a whole lot less security and uncertainty than what I’ve had) would be a huge change, and that is intimidating and scary. But I also do feel aimless and unsure.

    I guess my request is twofold: I’m looking for tips on how to stop feeling so overwhelmed and freaked out by the prospect of applying for jobs, and tips on how I can focus on figuring out what kinds of jobs I want to apply for. They’re intertwined – figuring out the second will probably help the first, but the first is making it hard to do the second. But I can’t keep on the way I have been, that much I know. It’s making me miserable. Thank you in advance.

    1. Beth*

      Can you take the pressure off yourself by calling this “preliminary research”? Seeing what’s out there, what types of jobs are similar to what you do currently? Is there a friend you can bring in who might be able to help you, and help you determine what your best skills are?

    2. zora*

      Honestly, I am going through a very similar thing, and I just finally started seeing a therapist. She is helping walk me through things, both figuring out coping strategies for my anxiety, and figuring out how to break things down into smaller steps that make me feel like I’m making progress on the gigantic thing that is “get a new job.”

  48. Summerisle*

    Does anyone have any experience with Toastmasters? I’m hopefully relocating in the next few months and I’ve just found out the town I’m moving to has a club. My presentations aren’t terrible but they could definitely do with a bit of improvement.

    1. Dr. KMnO4*

      I did Toastmasters in college. I found it extremely helpful with my public speaking. I became more confident and fluent, better at looking at my audience, and I cut down on verbal pauses (um, uh, etc.). Of course, now I’m much more sensitive to other people using verbal pauses, and one of my colleagues has at least one “um” per sentence, which irrationally irritates me. But I would say go for it!

    2. aliascelli*

      I’m a Toastmaster and a huge fan. It gave me a lot of leadership skills and confidence in addition to improving my presentations!

      1. Summerisle*

        Thank you for sharing your experience. It seems like a great (and fun) way to improve confidence!

    3. Someone Else*

      I’m a member, and I love it. For me it’s been about more than just public speaking, as I’ve also invested in completing the Leadership track they offer as well.

    5. tigerStripes*

      I was with Toastmasters for a few years. It was very helpful. The group members were nice, and I learned a lot about giving speeches and got a lot of chances to practice.

      From what I understand, each group is a little different, so if you don’t like one group, you might like a different one.

      The people I’ve met at Toastmasters were usually very supportive, though.

  49. Marie*

    I applied for a job and the manager accidentally copied me on the email to the HR staff saying that I “might be overqualified, but would like to screen and bring in.” The HR staff then emailed me to contact them. I did and I have yet to hear back. Should I try again? Or just assume they changed their minds if they think I’m overqualified.

  50. OwnedByTheCat*

    Ugh, I’m super frustrated and need to rant/get insight.

    I’m the Development Director at a school with a small admin team, which means I’m out of the office a lot for meetings. Typically about two meetings with donors per day. I work my butt off, and have a fantastic working relationship with my boss (head of school). She’s great.

    We have a really flexible workplace, so if you need to flex hours, WFH, etc we all don’t ask, we just coordinate coverage and run our schedules like adults. Fantastic, right?

    Well, yesterday my boss pulled me into her office to tell me one staff member had been making snarky comments from me occasionally working from home because a former staff member had abused the privilege (and not done any work). She made it clear she trusted me, knew I was working hard, and was impressed with my output, but wanted me to be aware of the potential perception issue. She also told me she’d work with me in any way I needed to make sure people know that when I’m out at lunches I’m *working*.

    So, big kudos to my boss for having my back, but i’m SUPER irritated that someone complained to her about me working remotely one day this month due to a service call. I’ve probably worked from home 4 times in the past 8 months so it’s not like it’s an excessive amount. It’s just gossipy and reminds me of my last toxic job.

    So, how do I get over these gossipy snowflakes, trust that my boss really does have my back, and keep on keeping on? I’m a bit in B*#$% Eatng Crackers mode right now.

    1. Sadsack*

      Your boss’s message seems conflicting to me. She supports you working from home, but wants you to be careful about the perception to others? How exactly are you supposed to do that? When you wrote that she made it clear that she trusts yiu, etc., did that mean she made it clear to the complainer? She better have. I would actually ignore all of this and keep working your schedule as you need to. If your boss supports this, who cares if someone else complains? Your boss should be telling that person that what you are doing is OK with her.

    2. Observer*

      It sounds like time for some self promotion.

      Do you ever need stuff from others? How do you ask, and what acknowledgement do you give? If you don’t already do this, consider asking for what you need with reference to what you will need for. Eg “Do you have any pictures of our kids at sporting competitions?” would morph to “I’m meeting with BigBugs next week, and I’d like to put together a piece on our sports programs, since that’s their interest. Do you have any current pictures of our kids at competitions?” And an acknowledgement might go from “thanks!” to “thanks for the pics! I hope BigBugs liked them.” That reinforces what you are doing in an organic way. So do shout outs, as appropriate. Of course, you don’t want to do that every day, but a sincere public acknowledgement when someone has done something really helpful or gone above and beyond will make people look at you more favorably. AND if you give people some context, it will have the nice side effect of helping people understand what it is that YOU are getting done.

  51. The Fiftieth Girl*

    I have a small, if a bit… sad… work achievement recently.
    I had been rather down recently because I had shifted industries when I changed my job. I was tasked with writing minutes, and twice one of the more senior team members had commented that my recording hadn’t been accurate. I tried my best, solicited inputs from several team members who were also present, and generally tried to conform to existing protocol
    Today, finally, I gotten commendations from 2 senior directors on my meeting minute taking (admittingly I had help from senior team members). Finally! Improvement from 2 weeks ago where I didn’t even know what all the acronyms stood for XD.
    A bit sad though, because
    It’s MEETINGS MINUTES. God. Why am I letting something so small affect me so much? LOL

    1. Emi.*

      I don’t think that’s sad! I think that’s awesome. In my experience, knowing all the acronyms is a huge boost to your sense of belonging. :)

    2. Squeeble*

      Minutes can be so much harder than they seem! Unless you’re doing a straight transcript, you have to understand a lot of context and be able to recognize what needs to be recorded versus what’s just a one-off comment that doesn’t matter, and that can take a long time to develop. Congrats on your quick improvement!

    3. Observer*

      It’s not a small thing, at all. For one thing, it’s your job. Improving at your job is ALWAYS a big deal.

      And, meeting minutes ARE actually quite important – especially in terms of accuracy. So, what you are doing is a fairly important function.

    4. Chaordic One*

      I hope this doesn’t sound snotty, but while this is an important thing to do and do well, in my experience it really does require a lot of effort for a result that is usually casually dismissed as being no big deal.

      At least you got some compliments on the work. That’s something. But, yeah…

  52. weasel007*

    Bad few weeks for me. I’ve had whatever horrid germ that everyone has and it has literally wiped me out. I’m able to WFH some, which is good because I do not like taking germs to the office. Today is the first day in and I’m fading fast. Oy. If only the person who gave it to me had thought of this.

    1. Liane*

      Oh, that is no fun. Would it be a problem (amount of sick time left or perception) if you asked to leave early and WFH the rest of the day because you weren’t as recovered as you thought?

  53. Lady Blerd*

    So we messed up an employees pay and I called him to ask how much of an advance he needed while at the same time explaining how his pay situation would be resolved. In the end, he cut me off and had his wife, also an HR administrator, call me to resolve his situation! I know there are many people who’s spouse handles their money but you’d think he’d at least know how much money he can live off.

    2. Liane*

      If I was the employee and didn’t know (maybe I forgot whether autopay for BigBill comes out this payperiod or next), I would have replied, “Can I call you back in 15 minutes with an answer, please?” then asked my spouse, then called back myself.
      If I was you, I would be very tempted to tell Wife, “I know you understand, being HR, that we can only talk to Employee about this. If you two need to check something, have him call me back by X o’clock.”

      1. Observer*

        Except that this is generally not true. Generally, if the spouse gives permission, it’s ok to talk to the spouse. Yes, there are exceptions, but this doesn’t sound like it.

    3. LawCat*

      I don’t think it’s a big deal that he doesn’t know off the top of his head. I manage our household budget and my spouse wouldn’t know how to answer that question without consulting me.

      The ridiculous part of this story is that he asked his wife call and that she did it. He should have just asked her for the figure and called himself. Absent some dire emergency (like employee in a coma), if I were the employer, I would insist on discussing the pay issue with the employee only.

    4. Lady Blerd*

      You are all right about talking only to the employee. But she also works in our organization only in a different department and we HR admins are used to discussing issues regarding our employees and the situation was time sensitive so it was easier that way. Plus he did tell me he’d have her call me in 15 mins and she did so on that end, she could have relayed the same information to me without being his spouse.

  54. climbing the ladder Again.*

    so job hunting…
    I was laid off from decent paying job and took a more entry level at entry level pay because I needed a job. Still applying for better jobs, how do I explain that I am actually at manager level & expect manager-level pay when I looks like I am just trying to leap up several grades?

    Looking at my full resume, you can see that I have been in the industry as a manager/director for 20+ years and this is a temporary thing but how do I get them to look past the first line?

      1. climbing the ladder Again.*

        I’ve been here for a year and it is within my industry so it would be odd to leave it off.
        There HAVE been new things for me to learn (like doing payroll) so it’s not been a total loss. The salary is about 1/2 what I had been making (which was below industry to begin with!) and I went from 4 weeks vacation to a week. Both of these things are deficits tat I would like to remedy in new job.

  55. Susan the BA*

    TIP: If you are applying for a regular business job (not, like, a graphic design job??), offering interviewers the ‘color version’ of your resume at the interview will not help you. Especially if they already thought your resume format looked super weird in grayscale.

    I felt really bad for this candidate, actually – they didn’t have the skills to be an outstanding fit for the position regardless, but an hour on this site brushing up on modern resume/cover letter/interviewing business norms really would have helped them.

    1. climbing the ladder Again.*

      yeah, I was in a “skills workshop” with someone who actually was looking for graphic artist jobs and had a really awesome looking resume but it would not scan into job sites and the teacher couldn’t understand why she wanted such a stylized and design heavy resume (duh…)
      She did make a flat resume for computer submission but klept the other layout in case she was asked for it.

  56. Management?*

    I’m in my 2nd entry-level job and want to learn more about what the next level up does, but I am having a very hard time understanding what management is. It seems like this nebulous supervisory/decision-making role that, on TV, gets portrayed as the boss in the office not doing too much work besides reviewing employee performance, okaying vacation days, and having the final approval on memos to be distributed. I know that’s not true and that there’s more to it, but I’m struggling to understand what it is that a manager does day to day. And what is the difference between a product manager vs. a program manager vs. any other type of manager?

    1. ArtK*

      Ooooh, interesting question. I think that the answers depend a lot on industry, company and management level.

      I’m a first-line manager and I’ll tell you how I see my job. There are really two sides to it, managing up and managing down. Upwards, I’m responsible for making sure that the work assigned to my department gets done when it needs to be done. That includes negotiating workloads and schedules with other departments. Sometimes I have to say “we can take that on, but you’ll have to tell me what we can drop” because we don’t have the resources. That’s one of the harder things to do because nobody likes to be told “no.”

      Managing downwards, my job is to make sure that my employees have the resources to do their jobs. That means information as well as tools and materials. I guide them in prioritizing their work so we can accomplish our goals — in fact, it’s very important that I communication clearly what our goals are. I’m a mentor for junior people and an advocate for all of them to the rest of the company. I have to communicate in a timely fashion when someone is falling behind; I have to take the time to understand *why* they are falling behind, not simply reprimand them and say “work harder.” Find ways to enable them to improve, or help them leave if things aren’t a good fit.

      Far too often, management being stuck in the middle. Right now, my employer is having financial issues and there is no money for raises or bonuses. I’ve got a couple of younger employees who are really past due for raises, based on their performance. I can’t give them anything, but I know that we’re at risk of losing them. I spend my time pointing this out to my management, and spend time commiserating and trying to be encouraging to the employees. As I pointed out above, I get demands for more work that we can’t accommodate and I have to communicate that upwards. Sometimes I lose the battle, then I have to communicate the “sorry ’bout this but there are good business reasons for me to increase your workload” to my employees.

      As for the different types of managers you ask about? A product manager is usually someone who is collecting and prioritizing product features and new (and old) products. They’re leading decisions on whether a product should be improved, replaced or discontinued. They need to be aware of things like industry trends.

      A program manager is someone who has primary responsibility for a program (project.) They manage budget and schedule. A timely question since my current course in my master’s program is “Engineering Program Management,” and is being taught by the program manager for Northrop’s B-1B program.

      When you have a company that uses program managers, you often have a matrix setup where workers are assigned to programs and then may move to different programs. They will have a functional manager who handles direct personnel issues, hire/fire, etc. The program will turn to the functional managers to get people assigned. An example from my professor’s career would be the B-1B program which needed airframe engineers — there is an airframe department with a stable of engineers who would be assigned as needed to that program and to other programs. This kind of organization works much better than passing work from department to department.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I suspect this varies widely across industry, job type, and any other number of factors. To answer your last question first: A product manager typically manages the brand/exposure/development of a product. A program manager managers the lifecycle, implementation, and development of a program (for example, a grant program or an internship program). There are line managers and department managers and a number of other types of managers.

      My manager, as a solo point of data, manages our department, which is a team of 7. This means overseeing the delegation of projects, being a sounding board when we encounter issues with our projects, providing feedback on our performance, overseeing our budget, hiring/firing, and generally being involved in higher-level decisions about the future of our department and our role within our company as a whole. This is not an all-inclusive list.

      Also, there are often times more “next levels up” between entry-level and management. There’s often associate roles which mean your levels of responsibility increase, but not necessarily to the level of managing anyone or any major projects on your own. If you’re confused about what the next level up looks like for you, talk to your boss! Ask him/her what a career path could look for you based on your skills/interests, or based on the standard trajectory within your company/department.

      1. ArtK*

        Good point about intermediate levels. I spent many years as a technical lead, where I would direct some work as well as advise management about personnel stuff. I’d contribute to employee reviews and participate in interviews with new employees.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      People management: Setting the right goals and monitoring progress against them; ensuring the work being assigned is aligned with those goals; ensuring expectations are clear and work is being performed well (including drawing lessons from it to improve the work in the next round); building a strong team, which includes hiring the right people, developing their skills (which includes coaching and feedback), and addressing problems (including letting people go, if it comes to that); building a culture that good people want to work in and that reinforces a high bar for excellence; and building the long-term capacity of your team to get results (which means bringing a long-term perspective to all of the above).

      1. ArtK*

        The gist of what I said, but far more concise and understandable. Back to Management Communications for me!

  57. Anxiety & Failure*

    I struggle with debilitating anxiety. It’s been a serious problem in my career; it nearly caused a big project at my last job to fail, and I left the organization as a result (by choice, but I’m pretty sure I would have been coached out had I not found another job before it got to that point).

    I’ve been in good shape for the past few years. I don’t take daily medication at this point (although I have at various points in my life/career), and I’m not seeing a therapist regularly. I made a big career change two years ago that was in large part about getting to a better place with my anxiety.

    It’s rearing back up now and it’s so, so awful. Like last time, I have a big project that I’m not confident about and (in my assessment, which is colored by my anxiety, so who knows) that I’m not doing a good job on. The project sucks; the first project manager on it quit/was fired. There isn’t consensus about the purpose and goals of the project, which was just revealed recently (after six months of the project chugging ahead without that clarity). My role, too, isn’t really clear; I’m not sure if I’m expected to lead the project or just execute the direction of the two executive sponsors of the project.

    Anyway, I’m not really sure what to do. I know the things I need to do to take care of myself outside of work. But I don’t know what to do about the project. I feel stuck. Ugh.

    1. Colorado CrazyCatlady*

      Ugh. I’m sorry you’re going through this. I am the same way and having projects that are unclear, with unclear goals are hard for anyone, especially someone with anxiety. When I can’t manage my anxiety, I try to manage and direct what I can. In this case, can you meet with the relevant people and say you know it failed last time because of X, and you want to make sure that doesn’t happen. And that you want to get clear on whether you’re supposed to be leading the project. And that you want to get some clarity about how to proceed since there IS no consensus. I ended up leaving a job for a similar reason (among any other reasons). It’s impossible to succeed if they themselves don’t know what they want.

      As for the overall picture, I wish I had advice because I run into this situation a lot.

    2. Christy*

      Why not get back on a medication that worked for you? Or try seeing a therapist regularly? The only reason I don’t struggle with debilitating anxiety is my daily Wellbutrin. With it? I’m golden. I don’t see a therapist regularly but I’ve gone back when I’ve needed to, and I’d go back again.

    3. engr*

      I’m sorry that you’re dealing with this. I also struggle with anxiety, and I’m always trying to figure out how to deal with it in work situations. A couple questions/advice pieces for you:

      1. Do you know who you can ask to get the answers about what needs to be done? If you know who, but are having trouble asking, that is one thing. But if you don’t know who to ask, that’s something you need to find out first and foremost.
      2. Lists! I always feel better when I have a list of what needs to be done. Maybe you can draft a list as completely as you can with the info you currently have, and then ask your manager to check it over to make sure you’re on the right page.
      3. Have you talked to your manager about how you feel? You don’t have to blatantly say “hey I have an anxiety disorder and this project is ruining me” but it might be helpful to talk to your manager and explain what you’d like to have in order to successfully do your job. If it were me, I’d say something like “This project is difficult, as you know the first manager on it had a lot of difficulty and is now gone. I want to do my best on this project and complete it successfully, and I feel that I need a little more support to make that happen. I’ve found that I’m much more capable of doing good work if I (know what steps I need to take, have a clear idea of what is required for the project, understand my role in the project, etc.). Can we talk about how to go forward to ensure that I am set up to do my best work on this project?”

      Also, even though you’re not going to therapy right now, do you have a “regular” therapist that you could go to in case you decide you need support? I am also no longer in therapy, and I just moved for work, so I don’t have a therapist “set up” yet. I keep meaning to set up an initial appointment with someone, because I think for me, it might alleviate some of the stress just to know that I have someone I could turn to if worse comes to worse.
      Good luck! please let us know how it turns out!

  58. regina phalange*

    This is a cover letter question – how essential are they? In the past week, I’ve applied for two jobs w/o submitting a cover letter and heard back from both places. I have had the attitude that cover letters don’t help or hurt me for a while now, so just stopped submitting/writing them. What are other’s thoughts?

    1. Anna*

      I think two out of how many is not really enough information to determine they’re unnecessary. If the places you applied didn’t specifically ask for them, it’s possible a cover letter wasn’t vital. It’s probable that the other people they contacted included them and were still contacted, which just means those two employers don’t feel one way or the other about them. However, I’d say if you think a cover letter is hurting your chances, then the content of your cover letter is the issue, not the existence of a cover letter itself.

    2. katamia*

      IMO, absolutely essential. A cover letter is where you get the chance to tell the story of your career and explain how the jobs you’ve had in the past make you qualified for the job you’re applying for–I’ve gotten interviews for jobs that, based on the job posting, I wouldn’t be qualified for (as in they’re firm on wanting several years doing X when I’ve never done X) and sometimes also gotten those jobs because in my cover letters I get to explain how my past jobs have given me the skills I need even though I’ve technically never done X. I always include a cover letter unless I’m applying through a website that doesn’t give me the chance to upload one (and then I get annoyed that I can’t include one).

    3. Susan the BA*

      In general, I would prefer to automatically disqualify any candidate who doesn’t include a cover letter, and I have colleagues who agree. In a position with literally hundreds of applicants where you know many will be strong, why waste time on candidates who aren’t doing the basics? Sometimes, however, it’s a position that isn’t getting many applicants at all and you have to start taking a chance on candidates who aren’t ideal for whatever reason – this could mean candidates whose qualifications are less well-aligned with the position, or it could mean people with poorly-formatted resumes, missing cover letters, etc.

      This may not apply in your case – maybe your hiring managers just don’t care! But it could mean that they’re desperate, and you won’t be so lucky in other cases. I wouldn’t risk it. The five minutes you spend on a cover letter is a good use of time.

    4. LawCat*

      I didn’t submit a cover letter for my current job, which was a first for me. It wasn’t clear in their application system if there was a way to submit a cover letter. The position did ask for responses to a number of questions, however, that got to much of what would have been in a cover letter. However, I’ve seen new postings for the same type of position I hold now that does ask for a cover letter.

      As an applicant, I think it can be a bit confusing when an advertisement is silent on the topic of cover letters. If an ad says, “Submit a resume, application, and answers to supplemental questions,” does this mean they don’t want a cover letter? If you don’t submit one, are you out of touch with professional norms or are you following directions? If you do submit one, are you failing to to follow directions and unsolicited, giving them more than they want?

      I’d err on the side of submitting a cover letter, however.

    5. Sitting with sad salad*

      It probably depends on the position as well as the management there. As a manager, I have hiring responsibilities in my job and I usually don’t bother with resumes that don’t include a cover letter. I need to see writing skills and I also want some insight into why a person is applying for the job. However, for the most entry level jobs at our agency, HR is responsible for hiring and will accept applications at with no CL.

  59. Jessica*

    I have been job searching for a few months. My husband and a few other people have looked over my resume and cover letters and given me feedback. I practice before the interview with my husband.
    I continue to apply for jobs but either don’t get an interview, or get an interview but don’t get an offer. What could I be doing wrong?

    1. SophieChotek*

      You may not be doing anything wrong. I think the fact that you are getting interviews is a good sign that you are doing a lot of things right. It’s a competitive market out there.

      I acknowledge that a few months seems like a long time. Best of luck!

    2. Collie*

      I don’t think it’s you necessarily. The market is still not great. I’ve been applying for two years (and I’m already employed) and I’ve had about the same results except for one offer on something part-time.

    3. Beth*

      I’m also in the same boat.

      One thing I’ve been doing lately that makes me feel both better and worse at the same time ;) is going on LinkedIn and seeing who ended up getting the position. Of course this isn’t always updated, but you never know. In the cases of a couple of jobs I never even got called in for, the people who got the position had tons of specific experience– I’m awesome, but clearly I wouldn’t have been the best candidate.

      For another position I recently applied for, the person hired seemed to have similar experience to mine, but much more industry-specific experience. Even if they didn’t hire her due to this, it’s quite possible she had a better interview because she knew the ins and outs and could make herself seem like a better fit for the culture.

      I dug through AAM’s old emails to try to find a good “rate” for replies to job applications, and while she of course hesitates to give a “true” rate.. in the end, she suggests that 1 in 10 should lead to an interview, and if not, that might be the time to adjust your resume and cover letter.

      There is always room for improvement, but sometimes, if there is an awesome dream candidate that is also interviewing (and with the market the way it is, super possible) there isn’t much you can do to go.

  60. Colorado CrazyCatlady*

    I quit my full-time job to go back to school and now have two part-time jobs. One is remote, and relevant to my work experience. The other was a retail job just to keep me busy. I haven’t worked in retail in any significant capacity in a very long time. However, they just promoted me to a low-level manager after 2 months. I will now be managing people who have far more experience and knowledge than I do, and it’s the type of situation where I’m also going to be doing the same work as them and leading them. I wasn’t promoted entirely on merit; a lot of it was due to my schedule availability, reliability, etc.

    How can I be credible as a team lead, and recognize that in many cases others definitely have more knowledge and expertise than I do?

    1. krysb*

      Absolutely. I became a manager at my company within a year, despite having people with 5+ years of experience. It can be difficult at times, but it’s definitely possible.

  61. SophieChotek*

    Pros/Cons of Mail Chimp? Or EasySendy or something other than Constant Contact…

    I know this has been addressed before – but I couldn’t find the thread.
    My company uses Constant Contact for Email.
    It has so many quirks that drive me batty…I could go on for a while.
    But it’s taken me almost 1 year to really learn how it works and find work-arounds for some of the weird issues or just shrug and decide it’s not ideal, but at least I know about it.

    (For instance, the new thing I discovered with Constant Contact: Say I sent an email to Jane. Jane loves the email and things her friends Bob and Sue might want to know about the promotion so she forward stop them Bob and Sue actually are upset they got the emails, so they hit unsubscribe. Because Jane Forwarded it to them, when they hit unsubscribe, they actually end up unsubscribing Jane, instead of telling Constant Contact they don’t want emails from us at their email address. This is something Constant Contact knows about.)

    I am considering migrating from Constant Contact to something else…but I’m concerned I’ll just exchange a set of known issues for a whole new set of unknown ones that are just different. Plus I just spent a year slowly learning about Constant Contact. (I will say the customer service at Constant Contact is great…just 80% of the time, they’ll just say “oh, yeah, we can’t do that”…)

    I’d love to hear your feedback? Ideally I’d love to hear details…i.e. Mail Chimp/whatever is great…but has these issues…

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I use Bronto (paid account), which I’m pretty happy with. They do a really good job. The biggest perk for me is probably their automatic workflows (examples: New customers are subscribed to a list where they automatically get biweekly training emails their first few months. New email signups automatically get a welcome email ASAP and then product survey the next week). We’re also really big on data collecting, and they provide a lot of data for you (and make it easy to re-email the people who didn’t open your email, didn’t follow the link or fill out the survey, etc.).

      Biggest downside is probably the limited design options for email templates. Their templates/options are pretty basic looking in general… Ours look pretty good at this point, but it requires a lot of set up outside of Bronto and then fighting with them a bit to get things imported.

      Their customer service is also fairly slow to respond (though they’re very helpful once they do!)

      1. EddieSherbert*

        I’m kind of familiar with MailChimp through a volunteer gig – Their design/layout options are nicer and easier to use than Bronto’s.

        But I don’t know a lot of details outside of just creating emails and general mailing – so I’m not sure about the details of contact setup and maintenance.

        1. SophieChotek*

          Thanks, never even heard of Bronto.
          What are the bi-weekly training emails? I don’t think my subscriber database needs that…we’re just sending newsletters and promotions (think small retail business)

          1. EddieSherbert*

            We’re a software company, so we do ongoing training for awhile when people buy the software. Since people are starting with the software all the time, it’s nice to have automatic stuff send out (instead of me remembering to manually track their process and send things all the time!).

            They join, get a welcome/explanation email. Two weeks pass, they get their first training email, two more weeks, next training email, etc. until they get through all the training material (and they can unsubscribe from the automatic ones just like they can unsubscribe from anything else).

            We also have the automatic setup for our monthly sales promos (but we decide our sales promos for the whole year in January, so I could create those emails now and set it up).

    2. EmailMarketer*

      I have used a lot of these services – MailChimp is good and so is Emma. I’d set a few test campaigns in each and see which you prefer.

      I agree Constant Contact is unnecessarily cumbersome for 2017 – there are technological solutions available now for issues like forwarding.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Thanks. I will have to see if I can set up some test accounts with both (without paying) and maybe see if one is better than the other. Thanks.

    3. esra (also a Canadian)*

      So I’ve used Campaign Monitor, Mailchimp, Pardot, and Hubspot. We’re currently on Hubspot right now, and god I miss Campaign Monitor and Mailchimp. They’re catching up quick to Hubspot on the automation side of things and they’re just so, so, so much easier to use if you know basic html.

      Hubspot is like pulling teeth and I hate it and I want my Mailchimp baaaack.

      Mailchimp also has a “forward to a friend” option that prevents people from being accidentally unsubscribed like you’ve mentioned.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Honestly I don’t even know basic html–I can do things like bold text or italicize or color — but when I have to start writing tables or things like that…no. Constant Contact has all these templates I can drop pictures into and templates for text. So far Mail Chimp is sounding like my best option…

        1. esra (also a Canadian)*

          Mailchimp has a lot of great templates and is very friendly for non-coding users as well. I’d definitely give it a trial, at least.

  62. Maria*

    I’ve been at my company working on a once-in-a-career project for about 3 years. I’ve loved it overall; but of course there are things that keep it from being truly a dream job — difficult personalities, politics, sub-par commute and benefits, etc. Lately the stress and pressure have greatly increased and I find myself enjoying the work less, feeling burnt out and cynical; plus, my great colleague who keeps me sane may be leaving.

    I have been recruited by a company in my industry that has a great reputation. The interviews have been good — folks have really gushed about the collaborative, happy company culture, they’re very profitable, and I would still have interesting projects. But.. not the once-in-a-career type of project that I had always dreamed about and now get to work on.

    I am so torn between desire to stick with my current company and project for another few years — it’s a long-term, probably decade-long initiative — and my immediate desire to have nicer colleagues and a more low-key work life. Part of me just hates the idea of quitting before I need to– what if I never get to work on something like that again? Another part of me says to choose something new and see if it makes me happier. (Note, I haven’t gotten an offer yet, just anxious in advance of the possibility.)

    Any thoughts from the commenters on how to think about this choice? Have you ever left a prior “dream job” for something less exciting?

    1. Aphrodite*

      For myself, I chose the dull but predictable job at a college because it has fantastic (almost unheard of) benefits, and I am older plus the current political atmosphere has prompted me to hang onto these. I live five minutes away so the commute is wonderful, and I work with good co-workers. The pay isn’t dreamy nor is the work, but an upcoming reorganization (and a very supportive dean) means I may have some opportunities that I otherwise wouldn’t. Of course, the re-org is still in the works, and will be for at least five months, but even if I don’t get one of those opportunities I’d still stay here–for the benefits and the security. Not exciting perhaps but definitely important to me.

    2. Chaordic One*

      It seems to me that you are outgrowing your current job. It is certainly flattering to be recruited by another company and it does not seem as if there are any red flags with this possibility. It is always easier to quit before you need to. If I were you, and if I received an offer from this company I would probably take it.

  63. Lillian Styx*

    Awesome boss alert: I called in sick on Monday because I was tired and in a mental funk and hadn’t seen my husband all weekend… mental health day. But, I was worried she’d think I was hungover because the super bowl was the day before.

    I came in on Tuesday and she asked me how I was. I said I’m okay, maybe a little queasy (tbh stress had been eating at me too–abject dread every time I look at the news). She said (smiling), “Oh, was it a touch of the Irish flu?”

    I laughed, denied it, and that was it!

      1. Hmmm*

        Hmm. It’s new to me too and I don’t think I like it. My SO grew up in an area and works in an industry where being from a blue-collar Irish background is very unusual, and the “drunken Irishman” jibes he’s heard are no more palatable than any other kind of hurtful stereotyping.

        1. Lillian Styx*

          I’m inclined to agree, and I wouldn’t find it funny if it was about any other ethnic group, but both she and I are from a blue-collar Irish background so it’s OK :)

    2. MsMaryMary*

      When I worked in Chicago and we suspected someone had called off to go to a Cubs day game, we called it the Cubbie Flu or the Blue Flu.

  64. anon for this*

    Guys, I am absolutely heartbroken over my job situation. For almost 10 years, I’ve genuinely loved my workplace and liked my job most of the time. However, I got a new boss four months ago and it’s become a living hell. I have never seen anybody as disengaged in their work as he is, and I am exhausted from trying to help him succeed. I’m quickly entering “I’m done” mode because I cannot seem to make this better. He’s dumping the work he *should* be doing on to me and just not catching on to what the job entails, at all. I was prepared for a new boss to change things, but I wasn’t preparing to work for someone who is profoundly lost or lazy, maybe both. I’m getting zero direction on anything, even when I present him with issues. A new colleague started on our team about a month ago, and while I was fine with helping train her, New Boss basically has me supervising her. Supervisory responsibilities are not in my job description, which my company is strict about, and I’m certainly not getting compensated for it.

    Last night I came home, in tears, and told my DH that I might need to leave because of this guy. At the very least, I need to have a conversation with my grandboss and tell her things still aren’t going well. (She asked for honest feedback awhile back.) This situation is eating me alive. My shoulders ache, I have a constant headache, and I’m suffering from insomnia because of all the anxiety. I’ve even noticed that I’m losing hair. The only time this has happened before was when I was under some severe personal stress. Obviously, I can’t continue on this path.

    How the heck do I chill until I can get out? I don’t even want to leave my company, but I’m not sure I have many options. Working with this dude makes me *that* miserable.

    1. Kyrielle*

      I assume you know the usual stress-coping things. They only help so far, but…they’re something. Please reach out to your grandboss ASAP, as either getting this fixed or confirming it won’t be is the most critical next step. Fingers crossed your grandboss will step in on it.

    2. ThatGirl*

      PLEASE tell your grandboss ASAP, I agree. This guy is not succeeding, and you should not be bearing the brunt of that. Let him fail.

    3. NaoNao*

      Yeah, start tracking the ways this lack of engagement is costing you in time and dollars.
      Make sure you can show concretely what “disengagement” means. Emails not answered? Meetings not attended? Reviews and inputs not given on key projects?
      Before you talk to Big Boss make sure you can clearly and factually show why/how this boss is failing.
      If there are projects you can drop or pull back from, do so. If there are decisions that normally a boss would make, but he’s out/disengaged, I’d make them and “ask forgiveness later” if you can/if it’s legal.
      Unless the boss asks you in writing, don’t do “basically” stuff (ie, supervising someone without extra pay). So next time New Colleague comes to you for help, perhaps “Oh, I’m so sorry, I’m slammed. Can you ask Worst Boss about that?” Same for other responsibilities—direct people to Worst Boss over and over; hopefully someone will get the idea and complain to Big Boss “Hey, what the heck? I asked for a white paper a month ago and Worst Boss never even responded!”
      Also dial back your own engagement: show up during your office hours and that it. Phone and email go off after 5 (or whatever hours), completely turn off your “work brain” and focus on home/play.

  65. Anon This Time*

    Just posting because I got a 7% raise this year and managed to get my entire team above-average raises as well. Good news on a Friday!

  66. Katie the Fed*

    This is a delicate one:

    I’m a female manager. I have a male subordinate who I’ve seen, um, adjust himself a few times. I’ve never noticed anyone else do this overtly in my professional career. It’s very obvious – like a baseball player. He might not realize it’s so obvious, but if I’ve noticed it, it definitely is.

    Should I say something? Ignore it? Is it an actual problem? Men – is this something you do regularly and I’ve just never noticed before?

    This one is SUPER awkward, sorry.

    1. writelhd*

      I noticed a superior do this once in the middle of a director’s meeting, so I just promptly tried to forget about it. It may be pretty normal?

    2. Mike*

      It happens. and can happen at the most inopportune times.

      Many times we are so used to doing it, we can forget where we are.

    3. Drew*

      Generally, it’s something that can be done discreetly. It’s possible to get “the team” caught in elastic or bunched up in an awkward fold, and that can be painful enough that an immediate adjustment would be called for. (I’m led to understand some brassieres can cause similar issues.) Still, it’s something I would rather duck into the men’s room to deal with if at all possible.

      I think the strategy is to deal with it as dispassionately as possible, like you’d deal with any other quirk that was distracting. “Fergus, if you need to adjust your wardrobe, please duck into the restroom for a minute. It’s drawing attention away from the great work you’re doing, and I don’t want people to forget about that. Thanks!”

      1. EddieSherbert*

        I think this is good advice and hope the convo goes well (if you choose to mention it)! I know I’d probably feel weird too.

      2. Katie the Fed*

        To quote Elaine Benes: “I don’t know how you guys live with those things!”

        I like your language though – thanks. I still don’t know if I have the, um, balls to say it, but I might have to!

    4. Lily in NYC*

      Ignore! Some dudes are just bad at doing it discreetly but they all do it. I recently adjusted my boobs in front of everyone at work without thinking and I would have died if someone brought it up to me in the guise of helpful advice.

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      Unless he doing it every five minutes, I’d let it go.
      If he’s a constant groper, then you need to say something. And I’d have no idea how to do that professionally. Last time I said something, I asked the guy if he was afraid that his junk would fall off if he didn’t have his hand on it. But that was a random dude who put his leg up on a step three feet in front of me and kept adjusting himself.

      1. Drew*

        At least you didn’t say “Quit fiddling like there’s something there.”

        Or like one of my teachers blurted out on lunchroom duty when a little felon-in-training exposed himself to her: “You probably shouldn’t do that until you have something to flash.” Totally unprofessional, but it worked.

    6. Feel Ya, Wish I didn't see ya*

      Ugh, I’m sorry. My boss does this VERY often and it’s so uncomfortable. I work for a tiny company for a husband + wife team and so the thought of going to the wife to complain is equally uncomfortable.

      The worst is that it’s done in front of female clients. Double ugh.

    7. Andrea*

      I’ve had this talk with my 12 year old recently, and told him he needed to figure out how to do it discreetly (hand in pocket, for example) versus just grabbing junk.

  67. TMA*

    [There really isn’t a question in here, just need to vent.]

    Crazy frustrating week at work. Basically it all boils down to a lack of communications (i.e., there is no downstream communication from the PM.) It is finally coming to a head, and we are all scrambling to accommodate last minute changes. There didn’t need to be last minute changes. Had there been proper planning and actual communication from the PM, this would have gone much more smoothly.

    Luckily, it’s not just me who is frustrated with him. The rest of the group is just as frustrated by the lack of communication and assumptions of understanding. So we will be calling for an after-action meeting so that we can discuss how to NEVER DO THIS AGAIN.

    For now, it’s just a matter of getting it done, no matter how frustrating and inefficient this whole process has been.

  68. RTFinstructions*

    Not really a question, but a vent: My company is hiring, and in our job postings we specifically ask for two writing samples of five pages or less. Every single candidate so far has sent us longer samples. These are not entry-level applicants (our entry level applicants on a different posting seem much better at following instructions). Just pick five pages of the 35+ page thing you’re sending us! Argh! I want to throw them all out just for reading comprehension.

    1. Triangle Pose*

      Are you making clear in the directions that 5 pages OUT OF a 35+ page document is what you’re looking for in a writing sample? Because in my field, if you say you want a “5 page writing sample” for certain kinds of documents that don’t exist in anything shorter than 30 pages, I would think that it’s a mistake in the posting. I’ve never seen any post ask for a cut-off portion of a writing sample which is essentially what you’re describing here.

      1. RTFinstructions*

        We are explicitly asking for samples that are five pages or less. I don’t think we imply that we’re looking for full documents, but maybe it’s not clear. We don’t care if you pick a section of a longer piece, find something of yours that’s shorter, or write something new (dunno why you would do this.) My experience is basically the opposite of yours – asking for samples of this length is not uncommon in this field, despite longer documents being the norm for full work products and academic writing. Go figure.

        Coincidentally, we just received the first application where someone actually followed the directions… whew.

  69. Seren*

    What are some good points to talk about when telling my manager I’m looking to transfer out of their department and into a new one? So far I’ve come up with these:
    -I want to make my best contribution to the company, and I think I may be better able to do that in a different department.
    -Different Department seems to align with my career goals and interests.
    -I’m willing to stay on here until I can get your full recommendation.

    Obvious points not to talk about – that I haven’t had an annual review so I have no idea how my performance stands, and how our office is toxic.

    I tried to look up advice from past posts but must not have been searching the right words, so links are welcome too. Thank you!

    1. designbot*

      I wouldn’t call the office toxic, but rather identify specific trends, cultures, etc. that aren’t working for you. For example, “Our team always seems to be putting out fires, and I’m looking forward to a role with X where I can dig into more long-term planning.” or “Work with our team is often very isolated, but I really thrive on collaboration and think I could fit better into team X or Y because of that.” Anyone might call being isolated and responsible for constantly putting out fires due to their boss’s lack of planning toxic, but you can be honest about the issues without the judgement words.

    2. katamia*

      You seem to be emphasizing how transferring would help you, not how your transferring would help the company. How would transferring help your company?

      1. Seren*

        Oh, good point. I think certain of my tendencies of how I work is better for a different dpt, kind of a speed vs. accuracy thing. And depending on how fast I learn at the new job, I could take those skills back with me to Old Dpt in the future and help them out. I can’t think of anything else, are there other typical points to mention that I’m missing?

    3. BFD, PhD*

      I would not say “I’m willing to stay on here until I can get your full recommendation.” If they’re toxic, that recommendation will happen on the first of Never.

  70. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I’m having trouble affording CLEs to keep up with my license, even with the “new lawyer” discounts. My spouse spent about 3 months on 60-80% disability and a month of reduced hours since last August, so there are no savings for living expenses. I was only able to save $300 for the classes, but I need 15 hours a year of them at $25 each, minimum, for cheap ones with all applicable discounts. Which don’t apply to all of them, or on demand lectures. I can’t afford a yearly pass for taking an unlimited amount, either.

    Then, due to high utility bills and having done something nice for our anniversary (not expensive but still), we were $30 short and had to take that from my savings for classes.

    I’m so frustrated, and I don’t know how to keep up when classes can be so expensive. Plus, it’s embarrassing since I have such a good degree from a top school; I don’t want to admit to others in my field that I’m not making enough and I don’t want to take class money from those who can’t pay for any of them, full stop.

        1. Intern Wrangler*

          I know that there are free CLEs; I don’t know that they are relevant to you. Have you searched the Minnesota Bar website for free CLE resources? I saw an article there a couple of years ago that had a thorough listing of ways to get free CLEs.

    2. Anxa*

      I have no advice, but I do encourage you to keep with it. I know it’s embarrassing, but so would letting your license lapse, right? Plus it would be even harder to keep a low profile on that.

      I had a license for something completely not law related. I needed take classes, some free, some not free to keep up my license. However, I was not able to afford to stay in my state. I had to move in with a boyfriend who lived in another state, and there just simply weren’t enough online credits. I had to let my license lapse, which cost about $2k, plus 7 months of work. I know live in a state (a new one) where I see actual job postings for people without experience, and it’s so frustrating to have to skip past those, knowing I missed my shot. If only the licensing board had accepting credit cards!!

    3. Female-type person*

      My state makes it very easy to be a provider of CLE. Can you, on behalf of your employer, put on an in-house CLE presentation? In my state, a speaker gets double credit, and an ethics speaker gets triple credit. I needed an ethics hour, invited some lawyer friends over for free CLE in our conference room, they got their ethics hour and I got three.

    4. meg*

      In my county, there is a county law library at the courthouse with free CLEs you can check out. It may be worth investigating if there is anything like that in your community?

    5. Emmie*

      You are not alone. It’s way too expensive to keep up with pricy CLEs. I’ve found a good resource are the free ABA ones – even if I take them out of my specialty. I attended a free one last week for Immigrant support. I also recommend the large law firms in Chicago. They offer CLEs via webinars, many already approved in MN. (I notice b/c I’m not sure why it’s approved in MN and not my state yet!). Good luck. Please don’t feel embarrassed. I’m there too.

    6. neverjaunty*

      Check with your local bar associations. Often they offer discounts and free/inexpensive seminars and talks.

  71. Katelyn M*

    I know everyone has different rules for how long you should wait before following up on interviews, but I have kind of an odd situation:

    I has a Skype interview scheduled for Wednesday afternoon and about 15 mins into it, my internet cut out and the call was dropped. Tried to call the interviewer back several times, but nothinh was working. I got an email from him immediately saying “tried calling you back but no response. Let’s try to talk before the week is out.” I responded immediately with “I’m sorry about my internet dropping- I’m available x, y, and z” and still haven’t received a response. Since it’s already Friday, should I email him again with “I’m free to speak this afternoon if you’re available” or should I just chill until he gets back to me?

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I would probably try to reach out one more time today. Maybe throw in a line about “if today doesn’t work, please let me know a better time we could meet (next week? or soemthing?)”.

      After that, I’d leave it to him.

      Good luck!

    2. Lily in NYC*

      Reach out today!! This is a very different situation so I think the usual advice doesn’t apply here.

  72. Your Weird Uncle*

    So, I have a coworker, Jane. I like her personally, but she has been a struggle to work with ever since I started, as I feel like our work is a constant power struggle. Our work overlaps somewhat, but not much, but my role is new as our predecessor’s role was split into two jobs – Jane took over Betty’s job but with only some of the responsibilities, and my role was created for the rest of the responsibilities.

    Ever since I started, Jane has been keen to, I don’t know, try to ‘manage’ me (even though our roles don’t overlap enough for her to have any oversight, and I don’t report to her – we share the same manager). I’ve tried to push back on her gently, as I want to preserve a good working relationship and, especially when I was new, I didn’t want to step on her toes in case I needed her help/advice later on down the road. Now that I’ve been here a year, I feel more comfortable pushing back and knowing what boundaries to assert, so things have gotten better in that respect.

    Lately, however, her quality of work has impacted mine. She made a HUGE mistake several months ago, despite me pushing back on her to let her know she was making a mistake (think: we got some funding to develop teapot stands, but she put it into the teapot cozies fund instead). I’ve been sorting it out ever since, which has resulted in a huge paperwork nightmare (and possibly audit nightmare scenario). I’ve mentioned this to the boss, who usually steps back from any real management role, and I’ve brought it up to her personally. She refuses to take any responsibility for her mistake, thinking instead it was another department that created it. So, basically, that has left it up to me as the teapot accountant to sort out the appropriate use of funds.

    Venting mostly, but would love to hear advice from others who have been there before, cleaning up messes created by sloppy colleaguesA

    2. ..Kat..*

      Can you track the number of hours it is taking you to fix this? Maybe that will make an impact on your manager.

      1. Your Weird Uncle*

        Good idea. It’s been at least several days of my time! Even if it doesn’t help me with this particular problem, I’ll start tracking when the next one comes up (unfortunately I think it’s only a matter of time…).

  73. an anon is an anon*

    So, I’ve been looking for a new job, but I’m not 100% sold on whether leaving my current company is a good thing.

    I work in an industry that is dying a slow death. Re-orgs and layoffs each year, hiring and promotion freezes, and I’ve never received more than a 1% raise. That’s only a COL increase. I’ve never received a bonus. My work is boring and tedious, but it’s easy enough that I’m not stressed about it and I don’t think about it once I leave the office.

    I have great health insurance and I can come and go as I please as long as I get my work done. The pay is decent ($60K in Boston, so I can get by on my own without struggling, though it’s not like I’m rolling with extra money).

    The main reason I’m looking for a new job is because I’m bored and would like a $20K salary increase to make my life easier/pay off debt, but I’m wondering if sacrificing the easy work/life balance and come-and-go as I please work environment is worth it. Thoughts?

    1. Dang*

      There’s really no way of knowing what work/life balance is like at other places until you learn more. In my opinion it’s a good idea to start looking as soon as you think things might be dwindling. I say start applying and see what happens! You’re not miserable in your job, so you can be picky and screen out what you don’t like in the meantime.

    2. Lily in NYC*

      I’m in the same boat except my industry isn’t dying. It’s just that I know I could easily make at least 30K more elsewhere but I have it so easy here. I’ve been wondering if I should move on but I lean towards staying for a few reasons: I get 6 weeks vacation, I can dress pretty casually, I’ve been here a long time and have built up good will and get lots of flexibility, and I kind of like the work even though it can be really mind-numbing at times. But I am very self-aware and know I am a lazy human being who doesn’t like change, which is probably the main reason I’m still here. You really need to do soul-searching and be honest with yourself to find the right answer that works for your situation. Good luck.

    3. neverjaunty*

      If you stay in a dying industry, you run the risk of no work life balance because you will have no work.

  74. Rebecca*

    Today is the last day at my new job. At first I thought I made a great move, but soon became apparent that I jumped from the frying pan into the fire. Thankfully, I didn’t burn bridges at my previous employer, they had an opening, so I’m going back to my old position, different manager, and a sane workload after only 3 months. So much is weird and odd here I’m not even going to try to explain it. I will say that the person who was supposed to show me the ropes shouldn’t show anyone anywhere anything. I pointed this out in my exit interview.

    I’m disappointed but not beating myself up, glad I tried. So, backward and upward?

    1. TupeloHoney*

      I just did this. And it is working out perfectly. I like the “jumped from the frying pan into the fire” analogy and happily report that the frying pan feels pleasantly warm after having spent almost a year in a giant dumpster fire. Best of luck and I hope your experience is similar!

  75. Bend & Snap*

    I posted last week about being rejected via text after 11 interviews. One of the reasons I wanted to work at this particular company was its remote and flex friendly environment.

    Well, that company was IBM, and this week they banned all remote work for marketing, meaning people have to either relocate to be near one of 6 major US offices, or quit, within 30 days.

    The CEO also has an employee petition out against her because of her work on a Trump advisory committee.

    So…bullet dodged!

    In other news my boss is working to give me high-profile projects and really “grow my flame” here so I’m feeling happier in my current position.

    1. ArtK*

      I’m ex-Big Blue (got “divested” 4 years ago.) I just heard about those changes which affect the technical people as well as marketing. As someone who worked remotely for the company for 12 years, this would have been a disaster for me. Unfortunately, my back-stop “help, I need a job” people are still at IBM. Here’s hoping my current employer keeps going.

    2. Lily in NYC*

      Oh wow!!! I was just bitching about their CEO yesterday. Bullet dodged for sure. But it still sucks that they blew you off after 11 interviews.

    3. Observer*

      I don’t know who made that decision at IBM, but I think it’s going to bite them big time.

      As EvilHR Lady Suzanne Lucas says, it didn’t work for Yahoo, why do they think it will work for them?

    4. esra (also a Canadian)*

      Oh man! Before I got into my current gig (that I love) I was going through for the marketing team at IBM. I am also feeling glad now that it didn’t work out.

  76. Anon For This*

    This is mostly just a mild vent. I applied to a BIG step up job in October. The org that I applied to is a HUGE medical employer in my area and this position is in line with where I see my career going. I figured the going would be slow because not only was the position I applied to open, but a couple of other positions in that same department came open, too. It has now been…3.5 months and they are still recruiting! ARGH! I can sort of let it go, but the way their application system is set up, until they release me from this job (update my application status to Other Candidates blah, blah, blah) I can’t really apply to anything else with their org.

  77. BizzieLizzie*

    I have a colleague who is frustrating to work with – but manages up extremely well so that senior management think he does a great job.
    Until recently I was more senior but in a different team, but he has recently been promoted so I see us as peers. And wow – the difference in ‘attitude’ is eyeopening. I am now experiencing some of the behaviours (as a peer) that are I had heard about in the past from others (&I’m not the only person who has to work around this stuff). Of course everyone is free to work in a different style but this behaviour causes practical problems.

    1) Not sharing of information or sharing partial information. I feel I can’t fully know if what I hear from this person is correct – or if things are omitted – or if I will be in a subsequent meeting and will hear something very different. (when in fact nothing changed other than how the person reported the information) Sometimes this is about trivial things that don’t matter (in which case why not share the correct info), othertimes stuff I need to know to manage a customer.
    2) not very helpful – e.g. turning down a 15 minute pre customer briefing when his diary was free (to a meeting I didn’t need or want him at but which he decided he wanted to attend)… when in the past if I phoned to say ‘hey could you attend a meeting on X, the answer is ‘if my diary is free – yes).
    3) unnecessary cc-ing of management on items which could easily be resolved in a 1 minute conservation. E.g. this week I asked if someone in your team can do X work for a customer. He agreed willingly, but 10 mins later he emailed our manager saying ‘bizzielizzie, it is not appropriate that my team is asked do X, stop requesting this . So why just not say that to me in the first place.

    Very odd as i just can’t understand why he is behaving this way – there is no gain to him or his team.

    We report to the same senior but have different remits. I have mentioned twice to our manager that I feel information is not shared accurately and it concerns me – for this reason so I don’t want to keep raising it with my manager.
    Just venting…:)

    1. Your Weird Uncle*

      Hmmmm, I feel that your coworker and mine (see post just above) might be twins! I feel your pain…..

    3. ArtK*

      I feel your pain. We have an Executive Vice President who does that kind of thing *all* the time. He hides information. He’s hidden projects. He’s hired contract developers and told them to *not* talk to the core team at all. At one point I was reporting directly to him (while he had the CTO title) and he was hiding stuff from me that was relevant to my job. He got moved into a sales/marketing position and then the sales team were hiding information. Although engineering is responsible for implementing projects with customers, we were not allowed to see the contracts (as in what was promised to the customer) and there were no Statements of Work (SOWs.) Then he’d and his sales team would get mad because we didn’t do what the customer wanted.

      He’s leading a project with a customer in Europe now. It’s a proof-of-concept and technical integration. He hired a consulting firm at an extremely high rate on a project where our revenue is fixed. We, the technical people, are not allowed to communicate directly to the customer. Everything goes from my solutions engineer to the EVP to the consulting firm to the customer. (I am literally listening to my solutions engineer complaining about this, as I type.) There are some outstanding issues, but a lot of confusion about what they really are because of this game of telephone. BTW, the consulting firm is not only expensive, but incompetent. They’re supposed to be experts on our product, but we’ve been doing all the technical heavy lifting.

      The lack of collegiality and information sharing is really hurting us. I’m still trying to figure out why this EVP still has a job, because he hasn’t brought any value to the company and has hurt us a lot.

      (Sorry, that was long, but you triggered one of my biggest work issues.)

      1. DoDah*

        Gosh, this sounds exactly like a former CIO, I worked with. It eventually got him busted back down to VP. In this case, they kept him because of his much-boasted-about network of contacts. I used to ponder if this network had the same opinion of him we had. (Not Good).

    4. Jane Reacher*

      Ugh, I feel your frustration. I had a former coworker that was almost exactly the same. Turned out, she was out for blood because I was given the position I was (she thought she would get it after they fired her friend). Additionally, she was horrible at her job and initially afraid she was going to lose it. When management didn’t follow through, she got even worse.

  78. undercover*

    I’m having an existential crisis about the industry I’m in. Pharma. And actually not even directly, but my clients are in this industry and my company is pharma-focused.

    It’s not that it’s inherently bad. It’s a very necessary industry. I just hate some of the money-making practices and… well, I don’t think I have to spell it out.

    Mostly I just hate that moving up in this field would entail more business strategy and development. Because I have a degree in policy and this is not what I imagined myself doing. I needed a job desperately. My coworkers are wonderful. The company is nice to work for. The pay is decent and they treat me well. Every single person I work with and all of my clients have good intentions of making these products available to people who need them most.
    But I’m sensitive to the negative public perception of the industry, and in a lot of ways I have that same perception.
    I wanted to work in nonprofit or gov’t but was never able to get a job. I’ve found lots of postings lately, but they are all ACA related and who knows what will happen with that in the next year. So I feel like I would be foolish to try and make a change like this now, given the climate… but I also feel like the longer I wait, the harder it will be to break myself away from the perks and the things that I DO like about being here.

    1. Temperance*

      Do you feel that your company is unethical or that your clients are unethical, or is it more public dislike for Big Pharma?

      I think it’s important for ethical people to be involved in for-profit businesses. Having people who care about drug availability in big pharma is critical and important. FWIW, my firm supports a lot of things I am not in support of. We work with some clients whose business practices I dislike strongly. I regularly joke, when I’m doing a feel-good charity event that “Unsavory Client” just bought a bunch of senior citizens pizza.

    2. Anxa*

      “But I’m sensitive to the negative public perception of the industry, and in a lot of ways I have that same perception.”

      There is plenty to criticize about Pharma, but really the public perception on it is so completely warped I wouldn’t let that get to you as much. For what it’s worth, as someone who is interested in (among other things), biotechnology and medical research, in some ways Pharma is actually less ignoble than the other sectors. Academic research may seem more noble on the surface, and yes, a lot of people make less money by going into that sector. But so, so many people I know actually switched to Pharma in part for ethics reasons (to move out of academia).

      Most actual employees in Pharma (okay, I really only know people in regulatory affairs and research) are simply trying to avoid unemployment and poverty wages while trying get people drugs and therapies they need. And even those that ARE willing to work for lower incomes without benefits are having a hard time finding jobs in other sectors.

      Maybe you should ask yourself how important moving up is in the field? What would a successful career in that industry look to you? Can you picture yourself leaving the industry once you’re more established instead?

    3. ArtK*

      My product (supply chain traceability) can be used by many, many industries. One of our main markets is pharma thanks to efforts world-wide to use traceability to improve safety. Things like the US Drug Supply Chain Safety Act (DSCSA.) I feel your pain. I work with customers all the time whose names are in the news for one bad thing or another. The way I reconcile it for myself is that I’m trying to make things better for patients.

  79. Myrin*

    A couple of days ago, I got forwarded a job posting that really, really appealed to me and so far seems like something I’d be quite qualified for. It’s become clearer and clearer to me in the last few months that I don’t want to stay in academia permanently and while this job would still be academia-adjacent, it would be independent and removed enough for my wishes, not to mention cater exactly to my special and niche qualifications. I’m excited and feel very energised and happy because it showed me that there is the kind of job out there that I’d like, even if it doesn’t work out with this one specifically.

  80. Kristinemc*

    Any suggestions for a teenager that is going to start working for the first time, likely this summer? I was trying to think of what advice I would give, and thought I’d ask you!

    1. Amber Rose*

      Never be afraid to ask questions if you’re not sure of something.
      Keep an open mind and a positive attitude towards criticism.
      Always arrive ten minutes or so early for your shift.
      Never call in “sick” from a party. That’s how I got fired from my first real job. ;)

    2. 14 years*

      Keep an open mind. Even the little boring tasks will teach you something or be a stepping stone to bigger things. That doesn’t mean be a doormat, but don’t act like you’re too good to mop a floor or refold those shirts…again…and again…

      1. Nanc*

        The boring tasks comment is spot on. Every job you have will have boring piddly tasks that are essential to the position/process, so get used to it now (still proofing docs for Oxford/no Oxford comma consistency 40 years later . . . )

      1. Emmie*

        That was a great thread!

        I’d also teach him / her about sexual or workplace harassment. How to spot it, and what to do. I would remind them that lots of folks may be unprofessional at her job. She / he shouldn’t set her professionalism standards at that low measure. (And teach her what is professional for her level!)

    4. Aphrodite*

      If you feel a need to vent about your boss, your co-workers, your job or anything at all related to it, don’t–as in never, never, never–use social media. Also, be very careful how you do use it; it’s unwise at best to show that you love to party with booze or drugs (even if it’s not you using them). Treat social media as a dangerous enemy because whatever you post online will follow you forever. And because you won’t be the same person at 38 that you are at 18 you don’t want your 18-year-old self to define your future.

  81. Zip Silver*

    So our (relatively new) COO has decided to up the dress code for management for management staff. Gone are the days of khakis and polo’s, now it’s button ups every day.

    :(

      1. Observer*

        Well, there is actually a fair amount of evidence that dress code can make a positive difference in productivity. There are also other reasons why a dress code might be a good idea. Or not. But there is no way to tell from here.

  82. To PIP or not to PIP*

    I am the senior person (de facto team lead) for a team of three. I don’t do the managing, but I’m the contact point for our group and I make the work assignments.

    Next week I am supposed to meet with my boss and my grandboss to talk about how we could set up a PIP for one of my team members. I’m participating in the meeting because the work we do is hard to measure and I’m supposed to help figure out a way we could make good goals for the PIP.

    The thing is, I’m not sure that a PIP will work at all. The team member that we are discussing transitioned to being a full time remote employee when she moved about 18 months ago. (She was a full time regular employee before that.) When we hired the third person for the team about six months ago, my boss and I agreed that we could not have a remote employee in that spot–it just doesn’t work well. We’ve talked with the employee about things that she could do to make it work better–communicating more with the team, using her time in the office to meet with other departments or colleagues (instead of staying at her desk the whole time), but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

    So now I am wondering: would it be better to tell the employee that we’ve found that this job just doesn’t work as a remote position, give her a (limited time) bit to find something in her new area, and do it that way? Or is a PIP the way to go?

    Thanks for your help!

    1. animaniactoo*

      It seems that you do have some goals that can be outlined.

      • Use time spent in the office to meet with other departments face-to-face. Say, a goal of checking in with at least 2 other departments per day while she’s in the office.
      • Communicate with the rest of the team on status of projects on a daily/weekly/whatever basis.
      • Make sure team members who need to take action on another part of a project are updated within 2 hours when it is ready for them to start.

      etc.

      But you (they) can also make it clear that these are an attempt to fix what is currently not working and if it’s still not working even with doing those things, then unfortunately it may be that the position simply won’t work as a remote one. The PIP is an effort to work with her and try to get it to work, and the reason it’s being done as a PIP is because many of these kinds of things have already been suggested and haven’t been implemented so you (they) need to be clear that these are expectations for the role as an attempt to make it function remotely.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      This job doesn’t work as a remote position, and she hasn’t been receptive to anything that would make it sorta-work as a remote position. I think that’s your answer right there; a PIP can help address performance issues, but a PIP can’t make performance happen when the performer refuses to perform.

      I’d let her go, and tell her why.

    3. BRR*

      I’m not entirely sure from your post if this employee can be successful if adopting these tips. If yes, do a PIP. If no, set an end date.

    4. AcademiaNut*

      I think it comes down to what the main problem is.

      Is it a case where, if the employee improved those things you suggested, you would be happy with the position and employee for the foreseeable future? If so, then a PIP, with the intention of keeping her on if things improved would be the best thing to do.

      If it’s mainly a situation where the position is not well suited to being remote, and if the employee improved via the PIP, you would still be unhappy with the situation, though, I think it would be best to give her a lengthy notice period and severance, plus support for her job search.

  83. margarets*

    I’m in dire need of a pep talk. My job search is going really badly. I’m having thoughts of suicide, and have even thought of how to do it in a big way that makes a statement. I know that’s not healthy. I don’t have a good support network – all I get is clichés about tweaking my resume or networking, or vague suggestions that I’m doing “something” to turn off interviewers – basically that it’s my fault. That doesn’t help my mental state.

    For context, this is not my first rodeo. I’m 49, have 3 degrees including a brand-new master’s and loads of work experience. I grew up with two parents in HR so I’ve learned plenty about jobsearching over the years. I’ve also checked into current resources to see if there are any new norms or practices.

    What I seem to be struggling with, that has caught me off guard, is the way I’ve been treated in interviews, which is: very poorly. I’ve had interviewers roll their eyes and scoff at me, scowl at me, or spend the entire interview not looking directly at me and acting like it was a terrible imposition to have to speak to me. One receptionist would not acknowledge my existence until I practically banged on her desk. All this at (supposedly) professional organizations for career-type jobs.

    This is in addition to the usual experience of getting no calls for some jobs and never hearing back after interviews (even after they say to your face that they will let you know – what even is that?). Is it now the norm to have to brace yourself for crappy treatment at interviews?

    I don’t feel strong enough to deal with this. It’s hard enough to psych yourself up for an interview knowing that you may not get the job, or it may not even be a genuine interview because they already know who they want. Half-expecting poor treatment on top of that is more than I can handle.

    1. ChrysantheMumsTheWord*

      Please call the Suicide Prevention Hotline and talk to someone – 1-800-273-8255

      Job hunting is a horrible experience. It’s brought me to my knees many times, but remember your ability to find a job is not a reflection on you as a person. It’s so easy to let our careers define our worth but there is so much more to you than that. It’s hard to put the best version of ourselves forth in interviews especially when we are struggling. Job searching involves rejection by people who don’t know you but it can be so tough not to take it personal.

      If there is a way to put the search on hold while you find yourself some emotional stability I’d think that’s the best road for you right now. Good luck and please take care.

      1. margarets*

        Thanks. You know I’m honestly resisting speaking to a professional because I’m afraid I’ll hear the same old cliches. Come to think of it, it would be really helpful to hear how others deal with this specific issue – how do you maintain a good attitude while also bracing yourself to be disrespected? Here’s the irony: I did some standup comedy back in the day, which is basically Christians and Lions, BUT at least there you get to bite back and sometimes the audience will like it. I don’t have that option in a job interview.

        1. Drew*

          Remember that you are interviewing them just as much as they are interviewing you. If they can’t even be arsed to treat you politely, they aren’t people you want to work for or with. And if I were in an interview where the interviewer was behaving so poorly, I would be very tempted to say, “Excuse me, but it’s clear this is not going to work out and I don’t want to waste more of your time. Thank you for meeting with me,” and walk out.

          But cultivate a healthy “It’s not me, it’s them” about the whole thing.

          Also, co-signing the “please talk to a professional about mental health” comments. You’re worth it.

        2. Anxa*

          “Thanks. You know I’m honestly resisting speaking to a professional because I’m afraid I’ll hear the same old cliches.”

          If you have access to one, I would recommend going. But I understand about the cliches. I saw a student studying psychology in a clinic, and all of the exercises had examples of people who weren’t happy despite everything going well in their lives. And I understand how important that is, because depression affects everyone and it’s even more depressing being depressed when you feel like you don’t have a reason to be.

          But I did say something once about how I feel like this isn’t helpful, because I don’t even know what I’d be like if my life were going well. I don’t have that frame of reference to know if I’d be happy or could sleep at night, or be more pleasant with family if I had a stable full-time job in a field remotely related to my past experiences and interests and had benefits and made 20K+ a year.

          So I think you could maybe challenge the cliche a bit? Maybe talk about how your situation DOES play a role in it?

          I did have a doctor once who I told, “I know I’m not supposed to be depressed or anxious and I’m supposed to want to be happy and relaxed. But sometimes I’d be more concerned if I WASN’T depressed about this.” And then we come to the understanding that the depression symptoms and anxiety symptoms weren’t unreasonable and that it was actually a pretty natural reaction to my experience, but that those emotions weren’t helpful and they were making things worse.

          I can’t say that that’s a healthy or good attitude, but it helps me. I really just won’t know how much of my depression symptoms are situational and how much are endogenous, and I’m going to do what I can do to survive and maybe find out what life is like on the other side of the hump.

          I think biting back in an interview can make you feel worse. Why did I DO that? What was I THINKING? And all of that. BUT, I do wish there was one interview I walked out of. If they weren’t a major (heck, THE major) employer in my county (and the place of my volunteering), I might have considered it. Dude was a complete jerk in the interview.

          1. margarets*

            “And then we come to the understanding that the depression symptoms and anxiety symptoms weren’t unreasonable and that it was actually a pretty natural reaction to my experience”

            Yes, THIS. That is what I would want a therapist to understand. It’s much more “this situation is a meat grinder and that’s why you feel bad” instead of “you must be ill if you can’t handle this”.

            1. Anxa*

              They might understand!

              I really don’t know what a healthy, well-adjusted response to long-term underemployment and a stagnant job search would look like, at least in our culture. Maybe that’s why so many people go through episodes of depression who don’t have a history of it. But you’re clearly in an unhealthy place.

              I was lucky to find that my doctor and student therapist really did seem to get what I was saying about feeling stuck because I felt like the emotions I had were totally reasonable in the situation and culture, but that they were harmful, unhelpful, and keeping me from coping in a healthy way. Maybe viewing therapy as a way to develop healthy coping mechanisms instead of fixing an unreasonable response would help?

              I have trouble digesting the advice to re-frame interviews, because that interviewer (and my performance) really could be the gatekeeper to my light at the end of the tunnel. There’s no amount of re-framing and rational thought and critical thinking about the job that can overcome that feeling that I can’t blow my chance at getting a toehold on a career before it’s too late. Or can keep me from feeling slighted during a critical interview. HOWEVER, I did find that it totally helped my interview style and frankly helped me not a f-hoot once in a while and relaxing. It’s worth thinking more about giving yourself more control in the process.

            2. SuperAnon*

              Thoughts of suicide are actually the line I draw for myself between “I’m suffering but coping ok” and “I’m suffering and not coping ok” so I would encourage you to see it as a separate issue from the job search stress. I can say from experience that getting a job is not guaranteed to be a quick fix to how you feel. You could end up having the same feelings of despair when you make your first mistake at the new job, or have a difficult encounter with a coworker, or any number of things. One of the lies my depression tells me is that I can somehow overcome my feelings if I just work hard enough to improve my circumstances (to get a new job, a promotion, a degree…), and if I fail to do so that’s my fault and no one else’s. That is jerk brain logic and you shouldn’t listen to it. It creates a self-reinforcing cycle of low self esteem and hopelessness to the point where you could win the lottery, a pony, and a private island and your jerk brain would still find a reason why you are worthless and should off yourself.

            3. Wirving*

              “This situation is a meat grinder and that’s why you feel bad.” I’m stealing this phrase – it is beautifully worded.

              I think you are spot-on when you say the problem is a lack of properly supportive family and friends. Job searches are so difficult, and without properly supportive people around you it gets really disheartening really fast.

              I want to distinguish between supportive and properly supportive, because I think people are well-intentioned and think that by giving that advice they are helping us solve our problems. What they don’t understand is that you don’t need someone to tell you to fix your resume or cover letter, or record yourself interviewing for the 50,000 time, because you’re already doing that. What you need is someone to listen to you, and validate your feelings, because job searching is freaking HARD. It is really crappy for an interviewer to scoff, eye-roll, or tune-out during an interview when the interviewer – supposedly – thought a candidate was good enough on paper to meet in person. It is downright rude for a company to never respond to a candidate’s application, and absolutely unacceptable for a company to never respond after an interview. But it happens, over and over again, and it’s really hard to endure the constant disrespect, let alone be energized enough to try again when you know that that will likely be the outcome.

              Regardless of what others tell you, you are in a meat grinder, and that is why you feel bad. The silver lining is that all of these companies that are treating you this way are saving you 6 months to a year’s worth of heartbreak, stress, and anguish, since they are showing you now what they are like.

              And for what it’s worth, while I think you’ll probably run into some therapists who will spout cliches at you like your current support network, I also think that depending on the type of therapy you try, like client-centered (talk) therapy vs. cognitive behavioral therapy, you might find someone who can be that great support network you are currently lacking.

              1. margarets*

                “Properly supportive” – yes! Thank you!

                “Improper” support seems to be an issue for so many difficulties in life. To pick a completely different example from jobsearching: infertility. I know some people coping with this and one of the hardest things for them is hearing all the darn cliches, as if they haven’t already heard them a million times and aren’t already trying everything that might work.

                You’ve really nailed my problem and it helps to be heard like that.

          2. Mephyle*

            So, I’m coming to this from no knowledge, but would it be helpful to look for a therapist who specializes in helping people who have to cope with adverse experiences – like recovering from trauma, or living with chronic disease?

        3. ChrysantheMumsTheWord*

          I think speaking to a professional might help equip you with the tools you need to get through this successfully.

          Drew’s suggestion of re-framing the interview process so that you are putting yourself in a position of control and power is helpful as well.

          There’s also a blog that I really love where you might find some helpful gems: http://www.thefreedomexperiment.com/

    2. animaniactoo*

      How would you feel about interrupting an interview and calling them on it politely?

      “Pardon me – you seemed to think that wasn’t a good answer. Can you explain why to me?” (for scoffing/rolling eyes), “Pardon me, you don’t seem to be very interested in me. Is there any point to continuing this interview?” (for won’t look at you).

      1. margarets*

        I certainly wish I had done so now. Seeing as it is a meeting of total strangers, I’m willing to overlook a bit of weirdness at first. Bringing up comments like you suggest would torpedo the interview, I think. It takes time to make the decision to do that.

    3. Creag an Tuire*

      Never mind the job search, GET THEE TO A THERAPIST. Or a hotline, at least.

      (To try to answer your question, I don’t want to be the “it’s all in your head” guy, but I know that I find myself reading too much into body language and innocuous words if I’m already in a black mood, because when your brain is busy telling you you suck and everybody hates you, it actively seeks confirmation of that “fact”.)

      But seriously, get a professional. Nao.

      1. margarets*

        Actually I was doing OK until *after* these terrible interviews. I went into them with an open attitude, heck I *maintained* an open attitude even while the dismissive treatment was happening. But it has gotten to be too much.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Yeah, but a therapist can help you get back to “okay” as a baseline that you don’t currently have. And you need that badly to have a floor under you as you continue.

        2. Jessesgirl72*

          I would respectfully disagree with your assessment.

          You may not have been openly thinking of suicide before the interviews, but someone who has good or even moderate mental health would be definitely upset by your experiences, but wouldn’t be struggling as much as you are, and to this extent. It’s not the interviewers’ fault. It’s also not a personal failing of yours- it’s brain chemistry, and nothing to be ashamed of, any more than you’d be ashamed of having diabetes. It’s a disease that simply needs managed, so you can be healthy again. You wouldn’t be at your best to be hired by anyone if you were obviously physically sick- this is no different. Please, for your own sake, as well as those who love you, even if your disease is telling you they aren’t supportive, seek treatment.

    4. Jessesgirl72*

      I am piling on here to say please call a suicide hotline. Take care of the mental health issues first, and then worry about the job search.

    5. Anxa*

      I’m so hesitant to reply to this, because I’m worried I’ll say the wrong thing or won’t say the right thing and it looks like you’re in a really precarious place. Please, of course, speak to someone more qualified than I am.

      Suicidal thoughts are of course unhealthy, dangerous, and unhelpful, but I do see how an unsuccessful job search could bring them on. I haven’t had similar thoughts, but I graduated in Dec 2008 and have yet to make more money in a year than I did in college. I can’t get the jobs I had before college, and I can’t get jobs you’re supposed to get after college, and every time I feel like I’m making progress toward a reset, I feel like I have to stop (volunteering and interning costs money, and it’s hard to justify that sort of investing when it never seems to work out). I’ve had thoughts, some I’ve vocalized, about what I am supposed to do now? Just die?! When someone gets sick or had an accident, I’m not at all envious, but I do wonder if it should have been me, instead of someone who is DOING something with their life. I’ve lamented quietly that I’m actually more afraid to die now than when I felt like a real person, as people who I’ve been out of contact with would hear about it and feel bad for me or know how underemployed I’ve been.

      I think the most frustrating thing about the job search is even in a place like this (the AAM community has incredibly supportive and inspiring for me), you can’t really find the support you need sometimes, because it’s not about beating underemployment so much as it is general career and job search advice. There’s a chasm in our society between what we expect of citizens (to educate themselves, apply themselves, and work as hard as they are able) and what we expect of employers (to find the best candidate for the job in their image). There’s not a lot of support, material or social, for people who slip through: people who have a lot to offer but can’t find an outlet for that, and then can’t earn the material resources and social recognition they really need for those efforts. I think it’s a tall order to expect anyone in this situation NOT to struggle with depression and depressive thoughts or to be frustrated or angry.

      You ask if this interview behavior is normal, and from what I’ve read here and seen from some other people in my life…no, not quite. But I also don’t think it’s very rare.

      Sometimes I wonder if I’m lucky I’m not a little older and came of age during the recession. Sure, my expectations at graduation were crushed in a lot of ways, but I started my serious job search during an employer’s market, and boy did it show in interviews. Some just weren’t successful, others were pretty hostile (I’m sure stress interviews have value, but they didn’t seem necessary for the positions I was going for). Worse were the friendly ones who just didn’t seem to have read my resume at all, even before the interview (I can understand being swamped, but once you’re in an interview, pay attention!)

      This past decade has been brutal of people of all ages and experience. It seems like at every stage you can get stuck. There’s the inexperience catch-22 when you’re young (and not so young anymore), the having nowhere to move up because nobody wanted to retire, and the coerced early retirement or perception of being too old. That said, I found it particular tough for my cohort, which in a way made it easier. There is a lot of support in pockets of the internet and sometimes over drinks with friends, if not through labor departments or society at large.

      One popular sentiment among my crew is that your worth is not determined by your ability to produce for a company. It sounds cheesy and kind of trite, but it really helps fight the dominant message in society (I’m in the US).

      1. margarets*

        You’ve made some really good points here. I’ll read your comment a few times because I’m sure I’ll have some thoughts to add.

        How I’m feeling is that the standard job search (and mental health) advice isn’t addressing the real issue: That ultimately getting a job, and therefore one’s well-being, largely depends on a hiring person’s *perception* of you, your abilities and so on. Not necessarily what you actually have to offer. And there is only so much you can do about how another person sees you – they get to decide what to value and what to ignore and it doesn’t have to be rational at all. In a way, it’s surprising more people aren’t driven mad by a system like that. Given that we evolved in tribal/clan societies where you had a place from birth to death, I can’t see how our psychology evolved to deal with it.

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          I hear you. That system used to drive me crazy. I graduated with an accounting degree just a few short months after a really big firm went under. They left behind 60,000 well qualified candidates in my job market. At that time when I got an interview in my field it seemed like it was only for sport.
          I got yelled at in one interview because I didn’t know something. Turns out something I literally picked up in 5 minutes at another job. I got rejection letter after rejection letter. I’d drive all the way across town for an interview just to be told I lived too far away and they’d never hire me. And yes, they had my address, and Mapquest was a thing.
          I’d go home and cry for hours. I thought, what’s the point? Nobody likes me anyway. I even thought it would be a good thing if I just gave up on life entirely.
          The thing that saved me was a weekend job. I hired on to a company where I would dish out samples at a supermarket on the weekend. Having any sort of job at that point was the win I needed.
          So I am going to suggest that you apply for a part-time job or even find a place to volunteer. Find a win some where, even a small one. Also call the hotline if it gets to be too much.

        2. MegaMoose, Esq*

          I feel you so hard on the perception versus reality issue. I’m on my seventh year of unsuccessfully searching for permanent employment since starting law school in 2009. I absolutely love being a lawyer and have been successful when given a chance. I had a run of great temporary positions, but about two and a half years ago even the temporary work dried up. I get interviews pretty frequently for what I want to do, but no offers. It is amazingly hard not to take personally, and I’ve never once had an interview I’d characterize as bad the way you have. And yeah, the mental health struggles are real. I don’t have anything to add but commiseration, and good wishes. If I knew the trick, I’ll tell you for sure!

    6. Maggie*

      Chiming in to say that if you don’t feel comfortable calling a hotline, you can text Crisis Text Line (text: 741741). It doesn’t show up on your bill and you’ll reach a compassionate counselor who can help. Sending you strength during this tough time!

    7. Christian Troy*

      I am so sorry. I dealt with a similar a situation and it’s hard. I would encourage you to talk to SOMEONE. it’s true they may not say anything groundbreaking but seriously, sometimes it helps just to articulate how crappy these experiences are and let it out instead of carrying it around.

    8. staying anon for this*

      A lot of us have been there and yeah, you get tired of the platitudes. I will share that those of us who have a “plan” in place are much less likely to actually do the deed (I am not now nor ever have been a therapist, never even played one on tv, and your mileage may vary). If you feel like it helps orient yourself, think about how it will affect those you might leave behind and realize that it would not be a good idea.

      I’ll jump on the “seek therapy” bandwagon but I know it’s not that easy, particularly when you are feeling financially strapped.
      One of the things I did while searching was to volunteer – it got me out of the house talking with others, helped me feel useful, and gave me some new skills and an appreciation of what I do have. I found it VERY helpful.

      As for crappy interviews, yeah, they happen. A LOT. I did several where I found myself acting as though I was doing both parts of the interview because the interviewer sucked. Consider it a plus that you don’t get those jobs.

      You WILL find something but you also need to find something to do in the short term to keep you out of bad headspace.

    9. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      I’m so sorry you are having thoughts of suicide and thinking about how you might do it. The following links have some resources you might find helpful including hotlines and things that have helped others cope:

      https://www.reddit.com/r/SWResources/comments/1c3p3z/helpful_resources_for_those_struggling_with/

      https://www.reddit.com/r/SWResources/comments/2dnji0/hotline_numbers/

      Suicidal feelings occur when pain and stress and pressure and worry exceed our resources for coping with those things. I am so sorry you are suffering so much right now. I hope you feel able to explore some of these resources. <3

    10. Jean who seeks to be Ingenious*

      I’m sorry that your job search is so awful that you are having suicidal thoughts. Believe me, I have been there myself. But please don’t succumb to despair! You have something unique to offer the world and it would be a darker, dimmer place without you.

      You’ve already reached out for human connection. Keep on keeping on in this direction. Please call a hotline, and find another way to be with other folks this weekend, even if you’re just side by side in a museum, public park, or diner. (If you’ve been isolated for a while, it may feel unfamiliar to interact with other people, but don’t worry about this. It gets easier with practice.) I’m sure other AAM readers will add other comments here, later in the day. You can also reconnect with this community on the weekend open thread (generally posts on Saturday, around 1 p.m. in U.S. Eastern Time). That thread is devoted to non-work topics but we could talk about ways to find positive human connections or just chat about lighter topics ranging from recipe suggestions to tales of coping with furry family members. (Sorry to be obvious if you already know this.)

      In the meantime I’m sending you send internet vibes and encouragement (and hugs, if you’re a hugging person)for you to reach out again–to a hotline or a counselor, or a second counselor if the first one is not a good fit: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Resources:
      The suicide prevention hotline — 1-800-273-8255 –mentioned by ChrysanteMumsTheWord is for the U.S., as are many of the professionals listed under “Find a Therapist” on the Psychology Today web site (psychologytoday [dot] com). FYI, the database is searchable by city, state, zip code, professional specialization area, therapist gender, etc. It also discloses which therapists take insurance and includes links to each person’s own website.

      Finally, if you’re not in the U.S. please advise only so that one or more of us AAM readers can look online to find you some more geographically useful resources.

    11. ... & Vinegar*

      Coherent and well written posts on this website all demonstrate valuable skills and thoughtfulness.
      The job market sucks, in spite of the much vaunted improvements in employment numbers. It’s hard. Lousy interviewers are just that, sometimes for reasons beyond their own control.

      I agree with a couple other comments – find a volunteer or part time gig of some sort that gets you out and about and feeling useful, and keep some of those phone numbers handy. The Samaratins offer a listening ear and have experience with people struggling without offering “therapy.” When you want to find a therapist, tell them outright that the circumstances of your professional life are the issue and that you’re looking for help finding balance and developing tools to support you in these conditions. IF they’re not up for that, they’re not for you.

      And, make sure you are taking care of you. Insofar as circumstances make it reasonable, be sure you’re exercising, eating well, staying hydrated. You want to be ready when the right opening comes along, in whatever arena of your life it shows up.

      You know we all want to hear from you next week, right, and that we’re all pulling for you? Because we do and are.

      Hugs

    12. Yeah, right*

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this, but you will be OK. I was where you are now, almost 2 years ago and at that time I was 54 and had been at the same company for almost 10 years. Circumstances and an ever increasing toxic workplace, meant I had to move on for the sake of my sanity and wellbeing. I was barely able to summon the strength and enthusiasm to go to work. I knew I had to leave and I did – without another job to go to. I ended up so stressed and drained, I had to go on stress leave for 2 weeks, before beginning my job search. I went through the same issues as you did. Rude receptionists and patronising, disinterested interviewers. I have qualifications in a specialised field, and years of experience, but I was being treated like I was a moron & wasting their time. I also noticed I wasn’t getting many interviews for the amount of resumes I was sending out and the amount of jobs I was applying for. I was also applying for jobs outside my field for variety and because I thought I had better broaden my search. When things started to halt, I realised I needed to do something. I tried to figure out where I was going wrong. I decided it must be my resume so I completely rehashed it. Instead of keeping it simple and easy to read, I listed my job description from my last job onto the whole first page, listing ALL my duties and responsibilities. It was still 2 pages and looked pretty damned impressive. As soon as I started using this resume I got interviews for 80% of the jobs I applied for. Within a couple of weeks of using my updated resume I had a new job. I love my new job and company, the people are great, it pays more than my last job and I get up in the morning now looking forward to going to work. For me, it was a change in my thinking and attitude and an updated resume. Good luck to you and the right job will come along. I’m a believer in things happening when they are supposed to and therefore to your benefit. Let us know how you go.

    13. Reba*

      margarets, I’m so glad that you posted this. It takes bravery to reach out about feeling bad. I just want to echo the encouragements others have offered about seeking some help. Anyone would be discouraged by what you have been going through–it’s hard! I hope that therapy or just little ways to take care of yourself can help you build up a bit more armor to weather these blows.

      Remember that you are a person of value. You are a member of this community and probably quite a few others where you have lots to contribute. It is well worth it to spend some time safeguarding your health. When other people are sh*tty to you–I’m sorry that’s been happening so much–it doesn’t mean YOU are less because of it.

  84. BadPlanning*

    An upper up pressed us to do “social media” for our company — you know, get out there, have opinions, make our stuff look cool.

    But in the Past History of the Company, there’s be a lot of pressure to be very tight lipped about talking about things. And a Big Deal about not associated yourself to the Company if you might be doing something on your own time (say, at a political rally).

    And we’re not dumb — we’ve seen stories about people getting in trouble/fired for social media.

    So we’re all gun shy and Upper Up thinks we’re a bunch of dinosaurs who don’t understand social media.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Say, “To test this out, how about we come up with what a month’s worth of posts would look like to make sure we’re aligned on content and spot any land mines before we start it for real?”

  85. anon for this*

    Alison, please delete if this is too political.

    I’m an American seriously considering applying for (NAFTA professional, fwiw) positions in Canada for political reasons (I’d prefer not to discuss politics further here — I’m just asking about the job-search implications here). I’ve lived most of the adult life outside the US and I’m geographically very mobile, but have never lived in Canada.

    The catch: I’ve only been at my current job for a year. I’ve never been in this situation before — I’m mid-career and have been at all my previous positions 3-5 years minimum. Do I need to explain why I’m trying to leave after a year in my application materials…or are people going to read between the lines (my field is quite left-leaning)? Canadians who do hiring, are you truly being flooded by US job applications right now, or is that a myth? If you *are* receiving noticeably more US apps than normal, would I look like a job-hopper or like someone who is leaving for understandable reasons? Thanks in advance!

    2. Creag an Tuire*

      It depends — is your current position something depending on government funding, such that the election results have you reasonably concerned about your job security, or is this just a general “I feel like I won’t like living here anymore?”

      1. anon for this*

        It’s both, actually…but my personal motivation comes more out of a general “I don’t want to live here anymore”/”I’m afraid of losing certain rights” than out of concern about my position losing funding (if it was just that, I could find a similar position in the US I think). However, that may be a better way to frame things — thanks! I’m just not sure when to bring it up.

        1. Creag an Tuire*

          In that case, I’d keep the cover letter nice and vague about your interest in relocating — employers that share your concerns would probably be able to read between the lines, but it would be a mistake to assume that just because the current Canadian government is at odds with the US President doesn’t mean that some Canadian employers don’t support him, or will look at a cover letter and think “ugh, what a ridiculous overreaction”. Note: I’m not saying you ARE overreacting, just pointing out that not all Canadians will respond positively to “I have to leave for political reasons”. (Though you’ve said your field is already pretty political, so I may be being over-cautious.

    3. Undine*

      Right now, I would just apply, and answer any questions in the interview. But you are better off if you can come up with positive reasons for leaving — not (just) fear-based ones. It’s just like anything else in a job interview — they want to hear why you are excited about this opportunity, not why the last one was so bad. Research living in Canada and come up with positive reasons for moving to Canada. Have you visited there much? Do you know people there? Why Canada? Where in Canada? What’s great about Canada (for you)? Are you idealizing it or are you realistic?

    4. anon for this*

      Thanks both of you Creag an Tuire and Undine — you are totally right that Canada is not a monolith, and I promise my reasons really are more complicated than a simplistic “Canada good US bad”…I just really want to respect Alison’s preference that we not discuss politics here and so I don’t want to go into more detail! But I think both of your comments have made me realize that my actual question is more like, “what do you do in your resume/cover letter if you’re leaving a job after a short period of time?” … the reasons *why* I’m in this situation just aren’t as important as I’ve been imagining them to be. I know Alison has a lot of good advice on this situation, so I will read some past posts.

  86. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    Grandboss is retiring in June and apparently there is going to be a major restructuring announced next week that will result in some significant changes in reporting structure. I’ve been chafing to move up/move on to a different role or even a new employer since my current position was reclassified as hourly exempt. I’m really hoping that these changes will open up some new opportunities for me; I would rather stay with my employer if I can and I haven’t had much luck with my job search over the past few months.

  87. Doe-eyed*

    So, advice for my partner on his job situation.

    He worked with a small medical clinic where the wife was the MD and the husband was the practice manager. They had one CNA and a few part time folks to temp in here and there. He was the receptionist. The workplace was very chaotic and little management was done.

    So for example, he’d get feedback that “A patient complained and said you made them feel stupid.”
    His response, “What did I do? Which patient? In what context?”
    Manager response “I don’t know.”

    They listed his job on Craigslist and he found it and asked them about it. They said they were “wiping the slate clean” and would start from scratch with the new year. He made a renewed effort to make a good impression. 2 weeks ago, he got a raise. Yay he thought he was doing well.

    Well then two days ago they let him go because he forgot to put in an order for the previous week. He’d already caught the mistake, fixed it, and alerted the affected pts. (And he forgot because the area was in a state of emergency and he was juggling many pts calling in and trying to move appts, it was chaos).

    Long story short, I think the MD just didn’t like him and the CNA didn’t like him. Which in a small office sometimes happens. When approaching this in interviews is it better to meet it head on? “This was a small husband and wife run clinic and while they told me I made several errors, they did it was they were firing me”?

    1. Leelee*

      I wouldn’t recommend saying that, it comes across as very adversarial. Even when it’s the truth it’s not a good idea to badmouth former employers at an interview.
      There is tons of stuff in the archives on how to answer “why did you leave your last job” if you’ve been fired, which your husband might find helpful.

      Best of luck!

  88. Emi.*

    My socially awkward coworker was in my and my colleague’s office talking about movies again, and went on a trail about actresses he and his friends had crushes on in their teens. When he mentioned a movie that he and his friends had all gone to see because it contained a rare topless scene, I said, “Fergus, why are you telling us this story at work? Please don’t.” A couple months ago I just would have cringed and retreated, so thanks to everyone who’s offered advice about being assertive! I don’t think any of it was to me specifically but it certainly helped. :) :) :)

    2. Elle*

      I did something similar, also thanks to everyone here! Someone here likes to tell a certain offensive story, that I know he didn’t realize was offensive. The last time he told it, I asked him to please not tell it again; that I found it upsetting & offensive! He apologized profusely and hasn’t told it again. It felt good.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Given that he is socially awkward, I recommend telling him why this discussion is not appropriate for the work place. This way, it helps him avoid being inappropriate in the future.

  89. Design deceptor*

    I have a question on the line between showing your best in a portfolio when applying for jobs vs. ‘deceptively curating’ your work….

    I am a recent grad who worked in graphic design positions during college; I’m applying for jobs where design experience is an asset but not the main focus.

    My work from these positions is extremely variable in quality, mostly due to the unstable nature of the organizations (mostly volunteer labor, flaky students) but also due to my being overloaded and failing to manage the work as needed. This means that, within a publication for which I was responsible for design, some sections look great (when I had the time and materials to put together a great layout) and some look….fine (when I was handed 8,000 words and blank pages right before publishing. I don’t design well when frantic). Nothing looks /terrible/, but it’s clear to anyone who pays attention to design that the same level of creativity and effort isn’t present throughout.

    I would like to include the great sections as samples of my work from this position, but part of me feels that would be disingenuous because it would imply that the shown quality of work was the same throughout. On the other hand, everyone has better and worse examples of their abilities, and there’s nothing unusual about choosing to show the better ones.

    Where’s the line?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      There’s no line. You get to curate your work; you have no obligation to show them the project you did with no advance notice and little support, or the one you did the day after your grandfather died. They know you’re showing them your greatest hits. Don’t worry about it!

      1. Spoonie*

        This. I don’t show work I’m not proud of. Don’t overwhelm them with an omnibus of everything. It’s your greatest hits album.

    2. TupeloHoney*

      To me, a portfolio (of any kind) should say “This is what I’m capable of” not “This is what I’ve been asked to do”. I understand that actual work product can vary widely based on budget, timelines, client demands, etc. and it isn’t helpful for me to see what the work product looked like under the worst of circumstances. In fact, I want to know what that person thinks her best work is. So if I see a portfolio of less-than-average work, I question the judgment of the person who thought “This represents me and my ability.”

  90. Former Invoice Girl*

    My question relates to a situation I’m facing at work — it’s a bit akward and I’m not sure how to handle it. What do you do when you have to ask someone to do something for you (send a set of corrected documents, in my case), and even though they answer every other point in your e-mail, they never do whatever you were asking them for?

    I work in compliance testing, and so I have to collect a lot of documentation from suppliers. Sometimes, these contain quite a lot of errors, and I have to ask my contacts to fill them out properly.

    The person I’m having this problem with had sent me x and y checklists, and since some lines were filled out incorrectly, I included some guidelines/suggestions as to how to do it. I also asked for clarification on a related matter — she answered the question, but the checklists remained without any modification. I asked her again to correct the checklists and offered help, but her next reply (addressing all other matters but the checklists) also came without the documents.

    I understand it when someone needs time to complete a task, but I know that if I were in this situations, I’d acknowledge the request and tell the other person that I’m working on it and will get back to them about it as soon as it’s ready.

    I’m now not sure how to address this so it doesn’t get awkward, and I’m also not sure what the background for ignoring the request might be — I’m sure she’s not trying to be annoying on purpose. I’ve thought, so far, of asking her if the checklists were out of scope for her and maybe asking for additional people to contact – do you think that would be appropriate? Or does it sound a bit condescending?

    Aah!

    1. Amber Rose*

      Perhaps, “I understand this may take some time to complete, can you please give me a timeline on when you can return those revised checklists?”

      That way she answers the email, and you can hold her to her answer later.

        1. Former Invoice Girl*

          Thank you, Amber Rose and Sadsack! I’ll definitely try this. Hopefully, this will get an end to the issue.

          1. zora*

            I would actually jump ahead a step. Give a date: I will need the completed checklists by MM/DD. Please confirm that you will be able to do that.

            If she freaks out, OMG I need more time, fine, you can extend the deadline. But I find if you’ve been asking and asking, being super direct with a clear deadline can get peoples’ attention.

            Another option is to pick up the phone and call her, “I know those checklists are complicated, so I just wanted to check in to see if you need any help or if I can answer any questions. I’m happy to walk through them over the phone with you if that would help.” Again: It’s much easier to miss something or ignore it in an email, but a phone call will up the urgency.

            1. Former Invoice Girl*

              >It’s much easier to miss something or ignore it in an email, but a phone call will up the urgency.

              That’s true — thanks for the advice! I really have to step up my phone game a.s.a.p.

        1. Former Invoice Girl*

          You are right — thanks! Now I think I’m going to do something that incorporates everything you all have advised — separate e-mails; asking for a timeframe and setting a deadline; calling her some time before the deadline if all else falls through.

    2. Marisol*

      Can you try sending separate emails, one with the body of your questions that she can respond to, and one with the attachment you are returning to her for corrections, and on the second email, put just one line of text requesting that she make the correction?

      I suggest this in part because I’m feeling a bit confused by what you need. It’s the end of the day on Friday, and I am tired and in a rotten mood, so it could well be that my comprehension ability is lacking. But, I’ve scanned this post twice trying to home in on what exactly you need, and while I think I get it, I am not certain, so that makes me wonder, if I am confused, perhaps the vendor is too.

      In any case, I definitely wouldn’t see that as anything awkward. I’d just re-send the email with a line of explanation: “Thanks for responding. I actually need the attachment corrected and returned to me as well. Thanks!” My guess is their mistake was inadvertent. I may be missing something as I said, but I really don’t see anything awkward about this. Just treat it like you would at a restaurant if the waiter brought you a diet coke and you wanted iced tea: “I actually wanted iced tea. Thanks!” It’s no biggie.

      1. Former Invoice Girl*

        Thank you, Marisol! This seems to be a good idea, too — sending separate e-mails, that is. I haven’t really thought of my message not being clear enough, to be honest, because I asked her directly for what I wanted her to do, but it’s possible that things got lost in translation, so to speak, being that English is not a native language for either of us (it might also be the reason as to why you are slightly confused by what I wrote – I’ve noticed recently that my skills are fastly eroding, unfortunately).

  91. Amber Rose*

    I’ve been working here for two years. This week I learned that a significant chunk of my job actually operates on a one-week deadline, i.e, these reports have to get submitted by every Friday. Except, this has never come up before. And when I took three weeks off once, I was told in no uncertain terms that nobody would be doing this job while I was gone. And when I first started doing it, my supervisor made a crack about how fast I was and how when she was doing it, everything would sit on her desk for weeks.

    For the last two years I’ve just been doing it that way as part of my day. But we got really busy at the end of last year at the same time I was locked out of the system I print the reports off of for three or so weeks, so I figured it wouldn’t be the end of the world to wait until I was let back in, instead of using the incredibly time consuming and painful work-around.

    And then this week I hear that my supervisor noticed I was letting it back up and told me she’s been doing a bunch of it for me for the last couple weeks, even though I cleared everything up within two days of being let back in early January. She said that if I thought I couldn’t get things in I should tell her, like she thinks I can’t manage a workload. In reality, I just thought it wasn’t important enough to ask for help with.

    So on the one hand I feel floored by information I’ve never heard, and on the other hand I feel like as a result of this, she has no faith in my ability to do my job and didn’t even bother to tell me about it until now. I’m incredibly frustrated and kind of hurt.

    Normally I’d just shrug it off but I have to go over what we call a competency matrix with her and I feel like I’m going to get low scores because of this, and also that my manager thinks I’m bad at my job now (he keeps insisting that I “missed” things) and basically feel like my reputation has taken a blow because nobody ever tells me anything. I’m actually pretty upset about it.

    I think I really need a new job, but it’s only been two years, and that’s the longest I’ve ever stayed at one job. I don’t wanna be a job hopper. :(

    1. caledonia*

      I think 2 years is fine for a job stay. Quite frankly with the rise of 0-hr contracts (in the UK) and general job instability (world wide), it’s not like a “job for life” really exists anymore. I think it is now far more common to move around and have shorter stays and for some industries it’s very common.

  92. Bad Day*

    I had to fire someone for the first time ever and I feel terrible about it. I actually feel sick to my stomach. She was unable to follow written instructions and there was nothing I could do to help with something so basic (there were other problems as well). When I decided to fire her, I checked in with my boss to make sure that we were on the same page and found out that my boss has had to e-mail her multiple times to tell her how to fill in her time sheet because it is always wrong. I know it was the right decision, but I keep wondering if somehow I could have done something differently to make it work.

    1. Some sort of Management Consultant*

      I’m sorry you’re feeling bad.

      For what it’s worth; I don’t anyone (sensible) actually likes firing people.
      But the fact that you’re trying to fix it even now suggests to me that you probably made the right decision. With that much empathy, I’m pretty sure you’ve done pretty much everything possible to make it work.

      I hope you have a decent weekend and can do something nice.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Don’t wring your hands too much. This isn’t even bad job performance, it’s a lack of basic competence with skills anybody who graduated middle school should have no problem with.

      Nobody enjoys firing people, but there’s nothing you can do for someone who can’t even fill out a time sheet correctly. You can feel empathy on a personal level, but don’t feel terrible; this person was a drag on the company and on you personally, and you’re well rid of her.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Also, this may be a little harsh, but….consider it. I suspect you’re feeling terrible because of how this will make her feel, how it will affect her. But I got a great piece of advice when I started actually managing: employment is a transactional relationship. Ideally that relationship is cordial and warm, but they’re not friends or family, they’re not associating with you voluntarily or for personal reasons. You are purchasing their labor and knowledge for hopefully a fair price, and they’re doing what you need done. There’s a big, fat line there between that relationship and a personal relationship.

        1. Bad Day*

          That’s true. I think it is extra hard because she was recommended by a coworker. I assume she previously did a better job than what I was seeing.

    3. No Name*

      So sorry. Hugs to you. I had to let my intern go today (my post is below). It was my first time firing someone. I know how hard it is. I hope you feel better soon.

  93. Some sort of Management Consultant*

    I spoke up when a Very Senior Person made a rather poorly thought out joke to me today!!

    For lots of Reasons, I’ve done a lot of work at the office and not at client sites. I really really want to work more at client sites and it’s a priority for my bosses as well.

    Very Senior Person came up to me at the coffee machine and excitedly said that

    “we should get a decision about Very Important Project and your role in it today!!
    Now you’re finally gonna have to do some real work!”

    I was rather stunned. She’s a VERY Senior partner and she is blunt and scary. I also know she likes me and appreciates my work (we’ve done a fair amount of work together and in fact the one who wanted to get me on this project) but it was just Not a Nice thing to say.

    So I spoke up!
    I jokingly asked if she was implying that I hadn’t been doing real work so far?
    And she realized that she’d overstepped and said that she of course just meant work at client sites.
    We parted with a smile.

    I’m very proud of myself.

    (I’ve only worked a year and a half so I’m still VERY junior.)

  94. RavensandOwls*

    Woohoo – job interview with Dream!Startup is back on! And I got a super nice rejection from another startup giving me some ideas on the companies that best fit my skillsets and background.

    That said… getting a job out of state is HARD, especially trying to time it with an upcoming move. And I’m kind of sad that my recent M.Ed doesn’t seem to be helping me in the university job search (or in the searches in general), either by making me a stronger candidate or increasing my pay.

    Question: has anyone worked with staffing agencies? What has been your experience?

  95. Lord of the Ringbinders*

    I’ve been waiting for this thread to blow off some steam about a peer-level colleague (same team but with a different line manager) who’s being very weirdly, insidiously passive aggressive. Example: I ask if she wants to work on a teapot explosion prevention project as she just went to a conference about that. This particular type of project is one of the more enjoyable things we get to do so we take it in turns/share them around. She says she’d love to. When I link her in with the project lead (who’s head of another department and same seniority as our grandboss) she emails her and me and two other colleagues saying she has reviewed priorities with her line manager and can help out if I’m stuck but as this is only meant to be a third of her job can I ask the others first in future. Which was not the best way to handle that. She could have just told me! I’m only surprised she didn’t ‘helpfully’ cc my line manager….

    1. BadPlanning*

      Ha — it’s like she was setting a weird trap.

      I just had a peer ask if I could come for some training at a different site. They asked when I could come in Month. I offered two weeks in Month that I could come. The reply? Neither of those two weeks works for the people in different site.

      Uh, thanks for setting me up for failure there. Why didn’t you say, hey, can you come Week1 or Week3?

      1. Lord of the Ringbinders*

        Exactly! It totally felt like a trap, except she didn’t know I had told the project lead I’d spoken to x and she was keen so I think/hope it reflected on her not me.

        She also didn’t tell any peers she was off to the conference which is very tone deaf in terms of team norms. She’s only a few months into working on this team but so am I.

        And that sucks, sorry.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Answer her back factually. “I apologize, I asked you first because I thought you would have new knowledge from X conference you were at. I thought that you were available because you said that you were interested when I asked, so in the future I will wait until you’ve checked your availability before moving forward. Thanks, LotR”

    3. LCL*

      This example doesn’t sound passive aggressive. It sounds like her boss slapped her and said not your job, concentrate on other tasks. The email was to leave a trail to show that yes she understands. ‘Reviewed priorities with her manager’ is code for boss said no, you’re not doing that. At my workplace, anyway.
      I’m not saying she’s not passive aggressive, I’m not there. But I know PA (left coast US) and this isn’t it.

      2. animaniactoo*

        Well no, it’s also PA to say “In future, please go ask other people as this is only supposed to be so much of my job”. She could have indicated that it was on her with something like “Unfortunately after reviewing my priorities with my boss it looks like I don’t have the time to work on this after all. If you get really stuck, I can help out a bit. Sorry! It looks like a really interesting project, I hope you get great results.”

  96. job hunting*

    as things have turned into a bit of a hostile work environment at my job i have decided to start looking, but not sure how to go about formatting my resume.

    i was moved into a different role in Q4 of 2016, and now they have decided that they need me back in my original department because there is no one left to run it (and i’m the only one who knows how). i’m not too sure how to put this on my resume. thoughts?

    1. animaniactoo*

      I would say that it’s a blip that’s not worth putting on your resume, but is worth mentioning in your cover letter if the position is relevant to what you’re applying for.

        1. animaniactoo*

          It wasn’t supposed to be temporary though, so positioning it that way can actually undercut having been moved to the role at all if s/he’s trying to show that they have the skills to take it on as a full-time role.

          1. Drew*

            That’s totally fair. Maybe a sentence in the cover letter like “I stepped in to cover for teapot fulfillment for a little while last year, and even though that role didn’t last, I discovered I really liked it!”

            1. animaniactoo*

              I think more like “I was promoted to teapot fulfillment, and was really enjoying the work, but unfortunately I was quickly moved back to the sourcer role due to a gap they were having an issue filling.”

  97. HelloWorld*

    I’m working on starting a new company, and I’m trying to get feedback from prospective customers, but I’m having trouble with it. I ran some test ads, and they did well, so I think that the concept is something people are interested in. However, I don’t know what problem I’m solving for my potential market because no one will talk to me. Are there easier ways to get in contact with your prospective market?

    1. katamia*

      It’s hard to give suggestions because this probably varies a lot based on who your prospective market is, but if there are other products/services that serve the same market, you could study what they do and what seems to be working, although you probably won’t have access to the full range of information there. You could also try posting a survey on a place like Mechanical Turk and getting feedback that way–you do a brief questionnaire at the beginning to screen out the people who aren’t your targets.

    2. Observer*

      What is the basis for your business idea? It’s hard to really illustrate without any idea of your business and market, but I’ll try.

      You decide you are interested in a testing service for high end teapot? Why? What made you think of this business? Have you seen lots of high end teapots with leaky spouts or that develop a funny taste in the water?Who do you think your target market is, and what is your basis? Are you targeting teapot manufacturers because you think they get a lot of returns, or teapot owners who want to make sure their teapot will be usable for some big party they are throwing?

  98. Mae*

    I love my job (for the most part) and have been there a year and a half. I’m passionate about what I do and I have an excellent rapport with my boss, colleagues and vendors who are all challenging in their own ways (myself included). I approach every project with thoughtfulness, candor and integrity- and I’ve been recognized for doing so. I sincerely want to grow with the company and constantly push myself out of my comfort zone. Sounds good, right?

    Well… one thing. The thought of managing people in the future absolutely terrifies me. It’s not that I don’t like the idea of mentoring people, but I don’t know how to… be mean or disappoint, for lack of a better phrase. Also, the added responsibility of making sure others do their job seems daunting and arduous. Perhaps it’s just something in my personality. Am I alone in this thought? Will this damage any future prospects? Of course, I wouldn’t flat-out say in an interview, “I never want to manage people,” but given the choice, would it ever be reasonable to communicate that this isn’t my preference?

    1. AnonAcademic*

      You don’t sound like someone who hates managing people, you sound intimidated and inexperienced in doing so. I think it would be fine to wait to pursue any management role until you have a better sense of your strengths, weaknesses, and preferences leadership wise. I will say this though – if you hire the right people it is not necessarily arduous to make sure they do their job. I supervise two very independent employees and while occasionally I need to push for followup on loose ends, they pretty much do their core duties as required 98% of the time. The other 2% of the time, we review what wasn’t done, the impact of that, and how to prevent the issue going forward. Since they are good employees they don’t tend to repeat mistakes but I do have to sometimes reiterate expectations. Getting comfortable with tough, direct conversations (with people both above and below you in the work food chain) is a skill that comes with time, but it can be learned, I promise!

  99. Taylor Swift*

    I started a new job a few weeks ago and I was so, so excited to be in a new position because in my old job I never had enough work to do. When there was work I did it very well and very quickly and then I’d go back to reading the internet all day. (Trust me, I tracked down every piece of extra work I could.) In the interview for the new job, the interviewers mentioned that this was a busy place, so I was excited! Except, it hasn’t been that busy. My boss was out of town the first couple of days after I started and then was very busy with meetings. She gave me a couple of things to work on, but I’ve been staring at the same spreadsheets for a few weeks now. She mentions things that will be coming up, but seems to be a little too busy to schedule them. Anyway, I know that I basically need to be more proactive about asking for work, but I’m shy and these people are new and I’m having a hard time mustering up the confidence. I can tell that this will be the kind of place where I really have to just start my own projects, but I’m so new that I really don’t know how to go about doing that yet. Please tell me to just go ask for some more work already.

  100. Professional Cat Lady*

    I work(ed) at a small non-profit that’s just merged with a mid-size local org. One of the things I did for the small office is donor data entry (recording all cash that comes in the door), and I’ve been able to keep that part of my job for my site as part of the bigger org, because our donors are expected (and have, we’ve only been “merged” for over a month now) to keep sending donations to our location. The org we merged into has slightly different donation recording processes (including a new database), and it’s been a bit of a struggle for me to learn the new processes. I know I’ve made some mistakes recording the information, but I’m trying to really pay attention to the details so that I don’t make too many as I adjust.

    Yesterday while I was out of the office, I received an email from the Development director (not my supervisor on paper, but definitely an unofficial supervisor) that they’d like to take this duty off my plate because there’s a lot of confusing details. Subtext: you’re fucking up too much, we’d like to take it away from you. (at least that’s the way it reads to me.) I want to keep this part of my job, as I’d like to move into fundraising and development eventually, and I’d like to keep my hands in the new system so that I can learn it, but I also know that I am making mistakes, and would like to make less work for them, not more.

    I’m not sure how to respond to this, other than feeling like I’ve failed at this part of my job which is what I’m eyeing for a long-term career option.

    1. JobSeeker017*

      Professional Cat Lady, congrats on maintaining a donation tracking system for your small nonprofit for so long. In two of my positions, I’ve had donor data entry as part of my responsibilities and found it onerous and hardly enjoyable. I admire you for finding comfort and pride in doing it consistently and doing it well.

      With regard to the current situation with the director of development, would it be possible to ask for more training on the new system? Can you shadow a more experienced development staffer? Are there resources for you to attend webinars, watch videos, or do practice exercises to reduce errors in the new system?

      Also, if you’re unable to continue this task in your job, could you perhaps look into volunteering for a worthwhile nonprofit to assist with donor relations? Someone of your skill level would be a great asset to a tiny nonprofit.

      In the meantime, please be good to yourself and enjoy the weekend!

      1. Professional Cat Lady*

        Don’t get me wrong, data entry is not my favorite part of the job, but if this is the field I want to be in for the next 40ish years, I feel like I do need to know all parts of it, including the nitty gritty details of data entry. I think I might ask to go down to the other site next week to go over all the details again. I’ve been over it with the head of development, but she’s not the one who has to deal with any mistakes that I make.

    2. Intern Wrangler*

      When you go speak to them, I’d mention your interest in development overall and ask if there are ways for your professional growth to be in that area, if you could be considered for stretch assignments. I wouldn’t read the email the same way as you did. I’ve been through nonprofit mergers, and it would be awkward to maintain different processes. Maybe this was always in the works, but they have gotten to it more quickly than anticipated. Maybe it is related to mistakes you have made. I wouldn’t fight to keep the data entry but I would fight for opportunities to be more involved in development.

  101. De Minimis*

    Found out one of the federal jobs I applied to is definitely affected by the hiring freeze [got an e-mail notice from them.] I’ve been turned down for one of the others, and have yet to hear about the other two. I believe that one of the other agencies may either not be affected or they’re just choosing to continue to post jobs and just not move forward until the freeze ends. They’ve continued to post jobs these last couple of weeks since the freeze was ordered.

    Bad part is, by the time the freeze ends our lease will be almost up and we’ll have to decide on what to do without knowing the status of these jobs [they all involve relocation.]

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Federal contractor here. Don’t plan around these jobs; my client is planning as if they will not be able to hire except internally for the foreseeable future.

      On the flipside, this’d be a good time to start applying for contractor jobs.

      1. De Minimis*

        I’m considered the same as an internal hire for one of the agencies that may not be affected by the freeze…

  102. not so super-visor*

    Holy Hannah, I just need a little solidarity here. They just announced a major restructuring that eliminated the department next to us and another department. People are freaking out. I’m trying to calm fears, but in all honesty, our department is usually one of the first to go to outsourcing.

    1. Drew*

      Oh, wow. That’s really tough. I’m sorry to hear it.

      I once went through a reorg that turned three project teams into two. Then we found out that in fact, the team I was on wasn’t affected (because we were working on three major projects at that moment and they couldn’t shift them around without annoying the client), so really it was turning two teams into one. Bullet dodged, but I felt awful for my coworkers who were suddenly competing for their own jobs.

  103. GuitarLady*

    Looking for ideas for a possible career change. My husband is applying for PhD programs in locations where I would be extremely unlikely to find work, so I would need to find a line of work that could be done 100% remotely. My current work is both not conducive to that, and I also hate it, so I would love to take this opportunity to go in a new direction. I would be fine with going back to school for a while if that would be necessary. My background is in Mathematics education, and personal finance. I have decent writing skills, but no journalistic or literary flair. I am functional with a computer, but not technical. Would love to hear from people who have 100% remote jobs, or know of fields where that is possible!

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Is there a reason you couldn’t get certified as a middle- or high-school math teacher? The demand is insane – my wife’s new district paid for her testing, certification fees, and called in favors at the state education department to fast-track her certification.

      1. GuitarLady*

        That’s the absolutely hate part :) Plus being international, its possible that it would be difficult. Although maybe I would enjoy teaching in another country with a more functional education system!

    2. katamia*

      I do transcription 100% from home. It doesn’t require journalistic or literary flair, but it does require a very strong grasp of grammar and research skills to look up how proper nouns/industry jargon are spelled. You also really need to be able to type very quickly. I can’t go into detail about what I work on due to confidentiality agreements, but I transcribe a lot of research-type interviews that are either being conducted by nonprofits or people in academia (I don’t get a lot of client information). The tech requirements are pretty minimal IMO, at least for the company I work for now–some Word formatting and there’s some relatively simple other software that you’d probably have to learn depending on who you worked for.

      1. katamia*

        Oh, I missed that you have an education background. There are online companies that hire tutors (who tutor via webcam), and if you have the materials at hand, you could also probably find some in-person clients.

      2. GuitarLady*

        Thank you, that is exactly the sort of idea I would be looking for! Do you know how many WPM I would need to be able to type? Also, how do you go about getting into this field, is there a certification of some sort?

        1. katamia*

          I don’t know what the exact required WPM is (or if there is one), but when I first applied I typed 70 WPM, and now I type 100. There are courses for medical and legal transcription, but I haven’t done one, so I can’t say whether they’re worth it or which ones are good. I really just found a company that looked decent, took the test (a lot of them have short samples they want you to transcribe), and was hired/contracted based on that.

    3. AGirlCalledFriday*

      Teacher here. I don’t know where you are relocating to, but definitely reconsider teaching. I’ve taught overseas in a few countries and it is much, much better compared to the USA.

    4. ThatGirl*

      I have a friend who works remotely as a course tutor for Western Governors University. She was a chemistry major in college, I don’t even think she had any teaching background. There may be other similar opportunities with other online programs – make sure it’s accredited, though.

    5. Anxa*

      I’m a remote tutor right now, but it’s not really significant. The pay is decent per hour, but I have a really hard time finding enough hours.

      There are a lot of sites you can work for, but they charge students so much. Of course, they also take care of payroll taxes, though.

    6. ..Kat..*

      Teaching English as a Second Language? Assuming you are not going to England or other English speaking country.

  104. NASA*

    Ever have a client latch on to you as their point person for A-Z, even though you only do LMN?

    Bob will NOT stop emailing me. I am a Jupiter Specialist. I used to be a Earth specialist, but he doesn’t know that. Bob emailed me about Jupiter and I answered all his questions, but then he started asking me about Earth. I half answered those questions too, but CC’d and directed him to his continent specialist as they should really be the point person for his needs. Then an emergency situation ensued and Bob’s boss emailed me, CC’d Bob, and asked about Mars, Venus, and Saturn. I told her I didn’t have access to that information, but forwarded her email (CC’d her and a bunch of my various planet people) and they could best answer her question. Bob emails me a few minutes later asking the same questions…BOB!!! That’s not how this works. That’s not how any of this works.

    I finally had to email Bob and say, Look, Bob. I am a Jupiter Specialist. I can best assist you when you have Jupiter issues and questions. For Earth issues, email this person. For X, do Y. Etc.

    This has been going on for weeks. Bob emails me for everything. I can’t take it no mo’!!!!! Bob actually had a Jupiter question yesterday and he didn’t email me. He emailed GeneralNASA at NASA dot com instead… you have got to be kidding me. The one time he should have emailed me directly, he sends it to our general box instead. Some people cannot be helped.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I’d draft out a stock email exactly like you sent before: “Look, Bob. I am a Jupiter Specialist. I can best assist you when you have Jupiter issues and questions. For Earth issues, email this person. For X, do Y. Etc. ”

      And send it back to him every. Single. Time.

      And just pray that this guy gets blown out the airlock. Or nuked from orbit, that being the only way to be sure.

      1. NASA*

        If you hear someone high-pitched screaming in the background it’s because I’ve received another email from Bob :)

    2. LawCat*

      I think having a general inbox is a good idea to curtail this kind of thing. Whoever manages the inbox can forward the email to the appropriate person. This, I have found, has been very effective.

      At my last job, we had something like PlanetAdvice@Employer.com.We communicated to our clients that they should send queries to PlanetAdvice@Employer.com. My supervisor would monitor that inbox and send the work to the appropriate person to handle. That could be someone on the Planet Advice team or she would determine that was for the Meteor Advice team and forward it to that team’s supervisor. Whenever I got direct inquiries from clients, I’d just respond with a cc to my supervisor and PlanetAdvice@Employer.com (it also functioned as a tracking tool so our supervisor would know we had a client inquiry in the hopper) and alert the client that my supervisor would assign it out.

      This worked really well.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Yes, it’s important to be direct with those people, as you were. Sometimes they just don’t get it, but treat them as you would a child. Repeat your instructions over and over until they understand.

  105. Lyda*

    I have a really weird issue and I’m in need of advice.

    I work at a larger global organization in the marketing department. Due to my role (mid-level project management) I work fairly closely with the President to the extent that she knows my name and we live near each other so I’ve run into her out in public from time to time and she always says hello. She follows me on Twitter and I follow her. She follows most of the employees on Twitter. As it is my personal twitter account I do a good mix of work and life. I’ve tweeted a few photos of my children.

    The President was just traveling for a few weeks. Upon return, she ran into me in the hallway and said she had something for me. She gave me two small trinkets for my children. Pokemon trinkets. She said that her own (now grown) daughter loved Pokemon and when she saw them, she thought of me and my children and thought they’d like them.

    This is such a nice gesture and I want to be sure that I do the right thing. My thought is having my children write one note of thank you to her and then putting it in a thank you card for her that I write saying simply “Thank you for the lovely gesture. My children really enjoy the Pokemon figurines”

    Or is the note from the kids a bad move? It’s hard to figure out how to navigate being a mom and a worker. Any input would be great.

    1. Emi.*

      I think a thank-you card from you would be odd. Either have them write a note, which is sweet and good manners from children, or say “Thank you for the Pokemon figures! My kids really enjoy them” next time you see her, which is a professional, low-key response to a low-key gift among professionals.

    2. Spoonie*

      I think that would be a good gesture on multiple points. It teaches your children how to navigate the culture of gratitude. If your president thought of your children while traveling, she would probably appreciate receiving something from them. And I’m the aunt who keeps scribble cards from her nephew and has a finger painted canvas on my desk at work (he’s got good color theory for a toddler).

      In short: I’m sure she probably isn’t /expecting/ anything from you in return, but it’s nice to be thanked regardless. And even better to be thanked by your kids.

      1. Spoonie*

        Obviously, a note from you is probably only necessary depending on the legibility of your children’s penmanship. Forgot to mention that.

          1. animaniactoo*

            You can write your enclosing note to say “I realize these may not be legible to you, but those are my kids thanking you very much for the Pokemon figures which they are really enjoying. 8•)”

          2. AvonLady Barksdale*

            Do your kids like to draw, or do other types of crafty things? Maybe they can draw something for her. That’s a more-than-appropriate thank-you from a little one. And I say this as someone who loooooves thank-you notes. :)

    3. Observer*

      Absolutely have them to a thank you. She got the items for the kids, so it’s appropriate for them to thank you. And, the sooner they learn to do thank yous, the better.

      Of course, since their notes may not be intelligible, animaniactoo’s suggestion for the enclosing note makes sense.

  106. No Name*

    Has anyone had to fire someone before? Even if it was justified, how did you deal with feeling awful afterwards? I had an intern on the team I co-supervise. The company has a strict no work outside of the workplace policy. This policy is made clear to anyone who gets hired here. The intern was found to be bringing work home at night and over the weekends. She was also forwarding work emails to her personal email to read at home (we don’t have access to email outside of work). There was no pressure or deadlines for her as she was an intern. The no work from home policy was made clear when she was brought on. The decision had to be to let her go because she so clearly violated policy despite knowing better. Some of the documents she brought home were confidential and contained personal information. She was in this internship as part of her college program and now she might need to do the whole thing over. I feel terrible even though it had to be done and so does the other supervisor. I’m new in this role and never had to let someone go before.

    1. Audiophile*

      I’m sorry you’re feeling guilty. It sounds like it was clearly justified. Do employees and interns sign paperwork agreeing not to take work home?

      She may have worked another internship with deadlines or where the expectation was to bring work home. I’ve worked a few jobs, where I watched supervisors take work home or work remotely and felt like I should be doing the same, even though people said I didn’t need to.

      Obviously your workplace is different in that regard, but it can feel like you’re not doing enough if you’re not working as many hours as your boss(es).

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Sometimes college students get really used to working at all hours and wherever they feel like it. But still, she’d been told that it was against policy and she kept doing it anyway.

    2. Bad Day*

      This is definitely a learning experience for her. It’s actually better for her to find out now that violating clearly stated company policy has serious consequences. Letting too much slide because she is a student will not prepare her for having a real job. It’s still hard to do though :(

    3. Drew*

      I had to fire a friend I brought into the job in the first place. That really sucked. (Although that friend told me later that it was a good thing for him and he didn’t hold any grudges at all, which should tell you what that workplace was like.)

      Speaking from experience, what’s worse than firing someone who needs firing is NOT firing someone who needs firing. I’ve made that mistake, too, and it does NOT end well for anyone (including you, as the manager).

      I don’t manage people now and I don’t miss it a damn bit.

    4. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I really don’t know what to tell you, because if there was ever a reason to fire someone, this is it. It’s so clear-cut I’m not sure what other choice she left you, and while I might feel bad for her on a personal level, I can’t say I’d agonize over the decision.

    5. No Name*

      Thanks everyone. She did sign the policy and it was mentioned multiple times in her orientation session, so she definitely knew about it. I know it had to be done but it was so awkward and she cried at the end. She just kept saying that working from home is so common now. But the company doesn’t allow it and even if they did we would have had to pay her overtime. It was hard to let her go, and we both felt awful when she started crying. I still feel bad even though almost 4 hours have passed.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Keep in mind that this is a transactional relationship, not a personal one, and how she feels about it is really none of your concern.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        It’s totally normal to feel bad when you have to fire someone! That doesn’t mean it was the wrong decision; firings are just inherently difficult things. You clearly made the right call here, and you’re also a normal person for feeling the emotion of it.

      3. neverjaunty*

        “She just kept saying that working from home is so common now”

        Then she really needed to be let go, because she was unwilling or unable to understand that she can’t just ignore the rules of her workplace when she feels like it. That’s a serious inability to do her job in any context.

      4. Observer*

        I’m with neverjaunty. If this was her reaction, then she clearly did not get it, was not going to get it, and was going to turn into an even bigger problem.

        You may have actually done her the biggest favor, though. It’s a tough learning situation, but hopefully she now really understands that just because something is common it doesn’t mean that she can do that thing in every workplace, and that just because she doesn’t understand or like a policy, she can’t just disregard without some significant consequences.

        The only I would hope someone did was to explain to her the seriousness for taking sensitive materials out of the workplace and and forwarding internal emails to herself. I’d suspect that there is a high likelihood that she wouldn’t get it, but it would still be good for her to hear it. On the other hand, just the clear policy violation was such that you really had no other choice.

    6. ..Kat..*

      Yikes. If you are a government contractor, taking home US government confidential documents home can get the contract yanked- then everyone gets fired!

  107. Audiophile*

    I’m really late to the party this week.

    Week 2 of unemployment, not going too badly.

    I had a really good interview on Monday, mentioned it in last week’s open thread. The salary listed in the posting was pretty high and during the interview it came out that the job is nonexempt, which is surprisingly considering what was listed in the ad. I didn’t think to bring it up during the interview and the salary was specifically mentioned. I got an idea about benefits (fully paid, Catholic holidays, comp days, etc). It sounds like it would be a good job even with the commute to the city. I could walk to work pretty easily, which would cut out the subway, most days.

    I have an interview with a different organization scheduled for Monday afternoon. They had said they’d email with details which makes me think they’ll be multiple interviewers or a test. Haven’t seen an email, but the weather may have delayed that.

    My former job sent me a check for the month of February, I’m going to call to make sure they meant to do this, since this wasn’t discussed and I had already filed for unemployment. While I appreciate the thought, the messes up my unemployment filing, since that likely counts as severance.

  108. Just Another Business Gal*

    Has anyone else struggled with getting over a previous toxic job?

    I have been in my current role for a year and a half, and love it. I recently got an awesome raise, and overall have had a great experience at my new job.

    However, my previous job (and first job out of college) was downright awful. I received no training, was working 60+ hour weeks, and was under a tremendous amount of stress. My mental health suffered as a result. My supervisor would constantly tell me that she “didn’t have time” to train me on the work she was assigning to me (!) As a result, my work quality was obviously subpar. Later on, I was put on a PIP for making mistakes that were out of my control, since I had not been trained (and, I don’t mean minimal training, I quite literally mean no training.) Thankfully, I got an offer from my current job before the PIP ended.

    I left that job in October of 2015, but still feel so bitter about the whole situation. What particularly bothers me is that the HR lady who hired me (and was completely misleading about the culture, management, job description, hours required, etc. when I accepted the job), is constantly posting positions for my old team on LinkedIn, and raving about how great it is, and it pains me to know that ANYONE would have to end up in that position. I truly would not wish it on my worst enemy. (by the way, the reason there are constantly positions open for the team is because of the incredibly high turnover rate -all 7 employees that we on my team when I left have now moved on, in just a year and a half’s time). I want to message the HR lady and tell her how awful my (and my ex-coworkers) experiences were, and that she should stop being so misleading. I haven’t seriously considered this as I know it wouldn’t be appropriate.

    I am well aware that this sounds quite obsessive and ridiculous for me to worry about, but I don’t know how to just forget about it. Any advice?

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I had Post-ToxicJob Stress Disorder after graduate school and my awful first advisor, and I actually ended up doing a type of therapy called EMDR for it. Google it for details; it basically uses repetitive eye movements to tap into deep subconscious neurological routines that usually occur during dreaming, and the practitioner walks you though recalling an emotional event. but I’ve found it very effective to “defang” memories and associations that become ruminative and obsessive – most notably for some early childhood trauma I went through, but also for situations like this. I’d bet a session or two would do you.

    2. Venus Supreme*

      I had terrible post-toxic job stress as well. I was hospitalized due to the amount of stress it gave me! I’ll let you know, almost a year out in a healthy work environment, I’m still constantly paranoid and anxious that I’ll be yelled when things go wrong, even when they’re out of my control.\

      What helped me was yoga. I know it’s not for everyone, but I really liked that my teacher tells us to intentionally let go of everything around us. I was able to get rid of a lot of unwanted stress and negative emotions that way. If yoga’s not your thing, I’d recommend some form of exercise (running? kickboxing? zumba?) or even take a class, like a cooking class or an acting class– something that’ll help you vent your energy.

      Also, stop looking at what your old job is doing!! I’ll admit, I found the personal blog of the person who replaced me and I tried to find if they complained about ToxicJob. That’s no good. This is a connection you want to sever completely because it no longer serves you. It isn’t your responsibility to tell the HR lady she and the company are awful. Other people will find out for themselves what a hellhole your old job is.

    3. In Repair*

      Post-toxic job stress–love this term!
      I had a hard time getting over my first job. I was let go while on PIP, and to be honest, I was looking for another job because I didn’t agree with a lot of the practices and policies at the organization. But I struggled for quite a while after leaving. I managed to convince myself that I had been blacklisted and that despite my skills I wasn’t cut out for the field (written communications). I moved to a different field, and I enjoy what I do. I occasionally look at positions related to my toxic-stress job and think about trying again with a different organization.

    4. mamabear*

      I was in this situation once, early in my career. It sticks with you and it IS hard to get over, so don’t beat yourself up for still being bothered by the situation. What helped me most was making a really clean break. I scrubbed my social media of anything related to that job, including unfriending quite a few coworkers that reminded me of that time. They weren’t bad people, the administrators were, but constantly seeing ex-colleagues pop up in my news feed reopened old wounds, every time. Please stop following that HR lady, stat. Even her virtual presence is not serving you well.

      I also did a few counseling sessions. It helped get those emotions out of my system and gave me tools for not mentally “going back there” all the time. I constantly had to remind myself that what I experienced there wasn’t what I would experience everywhere. The experience of a truly toxic workplace never quite leaves, though, but you can use that as a positive thing. You now have the life experience to know what workplace dysfunction looks like, and you’ll be better prepared to protect yourself if anything like it comes up again later in your career.

      Lean in to your new job and new coworkers. I’m not kidding when I say that my new boss’s kindness and stellar managerial skills had a huge role in my healing process.

    5. Chaordic One*

      The fact you’ve moved on and found another job so soon after leaving toxic old job speaks well of you, as does the fact that you seem to be doing so well in your current job sounds great, especially the part about getting a raise. Give yourself some credit for that and for not letting your old toxic old job prevent you from moving forward and beyond your past.

      Don’t bother with HR lady. She’s drunk the Kool-Aid and there’s no hope for her. I might leave a factual and dry review noting the lack of training and high rate of turnover (without being nasty) of toxic old job on Glassdoor. I’ve seen where sometimes it is recommended that people practice journaling to help them get over an experience like you’ve been through. You might even see about some short-term counseling with a professional. Good luck!

  109. KR*

    A month into job hunting and I have one rejection (with one interview before that) and other than that… Total radio silence. I’m not even getting phone calls, emails, or interviews. Nothing. The job market out here is horrendous. Funds are running low. I don’t want to work in retail or commute over two hours round trip every day but it looks like I might have to. Feeling hopeless.

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      I’m sorry! But I’m sure it’ll turn around. You’re already better for coming to this site as a resource. keep your chin up!

    2. Audiophile*

      I’m sorry, that’s tough.

      What industry are you in? Where are you located?

      I’m currently unemployed, in a few weeks it will be a month. I’d been looking prior to being let go, but didn’t find anything. Had some promising interviews, but no offers.

      I’m sure it will work out, I’ve hit a few dry spells in my job search as well and it always makes me panicky, but I know it’s magnified when you’re unemployed. Try to stay positive.

  110. Overeducated*

    Do any of you have advice or insight in finding work with federal contracting companies? My spouse is looking for work in an area of lab research that might be applicable to the VA, or other medical or defense related agencies. We know how to navigate academic and federal hiring practices between the two of us, but how to find work in a contracting company is a whole new beast. Looking into the shift because we want to stay in the DC area at least in the short term. Any advice appreciated!

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I work for a Fed contractor that does environmental compliance consulting, so different end of the industry. I’m not sure that I have useful advice; I got hired after sending in a resume, and I had a very pleasant phone conversation with my now-boss that I didn’t realize was an interview until 20 minutes in. I’d approach it like any other corporate/private sector job search, which is to say that it’s a lot less bureaucratic and stepwise than an academic or federal job. Most jobs at my employer are filled through networking, and many times there’s no formal job search.

      1. Overeducated*

        I guess the bigger question is how did you find your company? I am familiar with one niche area of NEPA compliance where there is one big company that gets most of my agency’s larger contracts…but only because I have that internal perspective. My spouse is in the position of knowing he has the applicable skills, but not knowing how to easily get from there to identifying the right people at the right companies. We moved here relatively recently so that’s part of it, networking from scratch.

  111. JobSeeker017*

    Questions about HR

    This week, I’ve encountered a few strange instances with HR folks and hope that wonderfully knowledgeable AAM community can help me better understand them.

    1. In early January, I applied to a position with the regional Girl Scouts chapter for a community outreach position. The posting provided a condensed summary of responsibilities but had no salary range attached. The HR director called me Tuesday and wanted to immediately conduct an interview, which I asked to be postponed until I could review the job description in more detail. She agreed to schedule a phone interview for 9:30 a.m. Wednesday morning, during which time she indicated that she didn’t read my resume correctly (misread a job title as being an employer) and for the third question asked about my salary requirements—which are $20,000 more than the position’s salary cap.

    Questions: What happened? Is it common for HR people to ask for a spontaneous interview? What is the best way to inform an interview that s/he has misread your resume?

    2. A nonprofit construction company found my resume on indeed and sent me a very professional email inviting me to come in for an in-person meeting Feb. 13. The email was a personalized template but asked for a lot of personal information that made me raise my eyebrows and then cringe. My rationale is that HR likely contacted me because my resume is categorized as being nonprofit. However, I work mostly in health and human services (direct poverty alleviation and mental health programs), so I don’t believe I want to do hours of preparation to attend a meeting where I will be bored or leave feeling as though it wasn’t a good use of my time.

    Questions: Should I attend the interview anyway? Is there a way to better categorize my resume on indeed.com to specific what companies and organizations should contact me?

    3. A car manufacturer sent me a random recruitment email via LinkedIn about discussing a production line position. I have no experience with automobile manufacturing or production lines, so I am confused.

    Questions: Should I ignore the invitation to interview? Should I make it clearer on LinkedIn that I’m only interested in very specific nonprofit positions?

    Thanks for your time! I would appreciate any comments you would care to share.

    1. Bad Day*

      You shouldn’t feel bad about turning down interviews for jobs you don’t want. It would be a waste of your time and theirs.

      1. JobSeeker017*

        Bad Day, thanks for the response.

        I am trying to find a position that’s a good fit. It’s taking much longer than I expected.

    2. paul*

      1: Wow that sounds like they flubbed it. I wouldn’t say its common but mistakes like that can happen. At our non profit we outsource HR (have for maybe 2 years now) and there’s been an instance or two like that. I don’t handle hiring or writing job descriptions so I don’t know if we didn’t clarify with the HR firm well enough or if they messed up or what. It’s certainly not good, it shouldn’t be common, but it can happen.

    3. ArtK*

      #3: Ignore the e-mail entirely. You’re not responsible for fixing their mistake and you certainly aren’t obligated to have an interview for a position that you don’t want.

      I got an unsolicited e-mail from a random recruiter a couple of days ago. It was very clear that he had scraped LinkedIn for my “resume,” but his algorithm was worthless. The job was for a “Software Sales Manager” position. I’m in software and I’m in management but I have *zero* sales experience and no interest at all in it.

      1. Kinsley M.*

        Agree with ignore! I used to work in trucking, but did nothing even close to resembling actually driving a truck. I can’t even count the amount of emails I’ve gotten offering me work as a CDL driver. About how they looked over my resume and thought I was a great candidate. I’ve had to hold myself back from replying that “CLEARLY, you didn’t actually read my resume.” Just ignore.

    4. Audiophile*

      You list your resume on indeed? When I did this, all I got were calls about insurance sales. In fact, I received one a few weeks ago, stating they’d “found” my resume and wanted to speak with me about two different roles. When I asked for more details, they said they didn’t have a definitive job description but the roles were sales and marketing focused, at which point I thanked them and ended the phone call. I haven’t listed my resume anywhere in years, so that was a red flag.

      You might be better off taking your resume down and applying to positions directly.

      As for LinkedIn, I don’t get too many recruiters contacting me and the ones that do haven’t pusheed a particular position.

  112. Thanks to AAM*

    I wrote in about an issue I had as an adjunct. Allison was kind enough to delete the letter after it drew unwanted attention and the student showed up in the comments to, I guess defend himself. I almost regret asking for the letter to be deleted since it was represented as being about the student and really it wasn’t at all. Anyway, I want to thank everyone for the support. I did not get a class this semester. I had been assigned one but enrollment was too low and it was cancelled. It was a very surreal situation for me. It was difficult to watch people comment on me and my character all over social media and not comment. There was nothing for me to do other than keep quiet as nothing I could say would make it better. The people commenting here helped me feel my reaction was normal and warranted and I appreciate that.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      This is one my biggest fears writing on this site – I’m glad Alison worked with you and I hoped everything turned out okay with the student!

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Just to clarify — the social media and other interest wasn’t generated by the letter being published here; it was already happening. We removed the letter so as not to add fuel to that.

        1. Thanks to AAM*

          Right the letter didn’t generate the interest. It was mentioned by the student in an interview in a way that I assume was to make me look bad, but that was after it was removed. I appreciate it being removed because I was afraid it would add fuel to the fire.

      1. fposte*

        Sorry, hit the wrong button. I thought of you again because I found an old mention when I was digging for somebody else. I’m really sorry this all happened to you, and I congratulate you on not making it worse by trying to argue back publicly.

        1. Thanks to AAM*

          Thanks. My husband typed out a million angry responses and deleted all of them. It was frustrating but nothing would have been gained.

    3. Allypopx*

      You handled a really crappy situation really well. I’m glad you felt supported here, even for a short time, and I really hope you’re able to move past all this.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Whaaaaat. That’s ridiculous and close-minded. If someone got fired for theft or something, sure. But plenty of people just find themselves in jobs that aren’t a good fit. The idea that that should be a punishment for life is insane.

    2. Anxa*

      Ugh.

      This attitude is so tough, because some people aren’t good at everything. In an ideal world, we’d apply for jobs we know are a good fit. I applied for a bad fit, because rent, and ended up laid off? fired? cut from auditions? after opening week.

      Now, for 3 weeks of part-time pay, I have to strongly consider checking “Yes” on those “have you ever been fired?” questions.

    3. Rainforest Queen*

      This makes me roll my eyes so much. I would never *want* to work for the lady who wrote that. She’s failing to take so many things into consideration (cultural fit, horrible bosses, toxic environment, etc.) Such a narrow minded view to take.

  114. Venus Supreme*

    I wanted to give an update on my comment in last week’s open thread! (Recap: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/02/open-thread-february-3-4-2017.html#comment-1351386)

    I left early on Tuesday because I wasn’t feeling well. Boss asked me what I was feeling like and I explained it felt like an allergic reaction but a little different– I also felt pressure on my chest. She asked if I was stressed and I laughed and said I actually really was. We sat down and I told her everything about the London program. I explained I’m taking this opportunity not because I was unhappy at this job but because it was an incredible experience I may not be able to take on later in my life. I used the language advised to me by all you wonderful commenters, and she basically said we will revisit this conversation (and include the big boss) if I do indeed get the offer to work abroad as a program director’s assistant! There’s a chance the organization can hire me as a “contracted employee” while I’m gone then return to full-time status when I get back.

    WHAT a relief off my shoulders! It actually lit a fire under my ass and now I’m working twice as hard. I want to prove I’m a valuable employee and that I’m undoubtedly reliable and resourceful while I remotely work if/when I’m in London.

    So I reached out back to my old programs director and told her to put my name down as an applicant! Wheeeee!

  115. Mockingjay*

    Six months into New Job, things are going mostly well.

    My manager has had staffing issues. He didn’t plan resources properly for the amount of work on the contract, especially administrative support. (You all know where this is going, right?) So he tried to rope me into doing “support.”

    All hail the Alison! I threw this exact phrase at him: “Boss, does it make sense for someone at my level to be doing these tasks?”

    His jaw hit the table. After a minute, he conceded, “No, it doesn’t. Not at your rate.” (charged to contract) “We’ll figure something else.”

    Success!

  116. peachie*

    I’m not having the best work week. It’s been a week since I sent a follow-up message about an interview that was very promising and have heard nothing (the email a week ago was a follow-up after hearing nothing for two weeks). I’m sending another follow up now. I know I didn’t get the job–I’m just really, really surprised that this is how the process has ended. I made it through the entire interview process, including a quick “let’s talk salary/I’ll be in touch soon” conversation with the hiring manager, and–I dunno, I know these things happen, it just seems very odd and dissonant with the interactions I’ve had with them so far for them to say nothing.

    I also found out my current employer is switching half my department’s salaries off our central budget and onto a project-specific budget–basically, the implication is that our roles/budgets are now tied to our project’s revenue. I get it, but it’s frustrating, because my two-person department brings in the vast majority of the company’s revenue (we’re a nonprofit association) but isn’t allowed any of the resources of other departments. Our mar/comm, for example, is paid from the general budget but will not market for our department, so we have to do that. Other departments get temps and interns frequently; I and my director assemble our own mailings. Meanwhile, my responsibilities are growing and growing and I literally don’t have time to do all parts of my job (I’m non-exempt and they’re strict about it–I strongly believe that the role I’m now in should be exempt, but policy dictates that I would have to be managing someone, and that’s not going to happen). My director and I have put together case after case for the Big Boss, but the answer is always an absolute, no-budge “No, we do not have the budget to hire an assistant.” And now that our budget account has changed, there’s no chance in hell we’re going to.

    I like my role well enough, and I like my boss and some of my coworkers a lot. I mostly find my workplace fair and tolerable, but I’m finding myself more and more frustrated.

    1. peachie*

      UPDATE: Just got an email from the hiring manager–“We got your message. I will contact you soon.” Why am I so nervous?!

  117. urban teacher*

    Can anybody make a suggestion of how to get informational interviews when you don’t know people in the area? I moved for school and now want to start asking people about my new field. I’m using Linked In and emailing blindly. It’s only been two days but I’m wondering if anyone has either done that or if I’m missing another way.

    1. Obvi Anon*

      I find it helps to meet someone in person first. Can you maybe attend networking events for your industry?

  118. FN2187*

    It’s been a rough week.

    Boss was rude and disrespectful, which hit me pretty hard.

    But so many of my coworkers have come out to say that they truly value me and my contributions — it’s just so nice to know that people really do have your back when things get tough.

  119. Murphy*

    Did TONS of work over several months for a huge work project. Boss forgot to invite me to the project kick-off celebration/reception. *sigh*

  120. Dr. KMnO4*

    I need a script for what to say to my department head.

    I’m a Visiting Assistant Professor, and the only female in an all-male department and a male-dominated field. My department head visited my class recently as just a check on how I’m teaching, nothing out of the ordinary. My students were doing an activity that day that I’d written. It most definitely was connected to the content, in fact I took the topics and equations and some data from the textbook.

    My department head answered a question from some students. I said to the students, “You’re lucky, you have a [subject] expert helping you.” My department head said (maybe jokingly??), “But no [subject] is being taught.”

    It feels like he’s de-legitimizing my teaching in a way. Even if he was joking, which it didn’t really sound like in the moment, it seems like it’s not a great joke to make. So, what do I say to him? Do I even bring it up?

    1. Turkletina*

      What on earth? I don’t have any advice, really, but you have my sympathies and my outrage. Even if it were a joke, he’s undermining your authority with that comment, and, I would argue, even by answering questions while he’s there to evaluate your teaching.

      As a counterpoint, here’s something that happened to me as a young, female instructor: I had a much older, male professor come in to evaluate my teaching. A student directed a question to him rather than to me. The professor looked me in the eye and said pointedly, “I’m not the instructor here, Turkletina is.” and refused to answer the question. *That’s* what should be happening in this context.

      If you do say something, I’d frame it in terms of the effect it might have had on the students. Something along the lines of “I know you didn’t mean anything by it, but I’m worried that your comment gave my students the idea that my class isn’t a serious [subject] class. If there’s something you want to address about my teaching, that’s fine, of course, but I’d really prefer that you bring it up with me privately after class is over.”

      1. Dr. KMnO4*

        Thanks for the script, and for commiserating! It sounds like you had a great experience with being observed, hopefully I can have something similar happen in the future.

    2. animaniactoo*

      “Boss, you said that no [subject] was being taught. I’m curious about why you said that, because in my view it was being taught via a self-exploration activity that I had created for them – that was me teaching them how to look at the problem, even if I was not actively leading them through it. Can you help me understand where you were coming from?”

      Listen, address whatever’s said, and make sure work in a reply somewhere with something along the lines of
      “In particular, I’m concerned that my students will view this kind of thing as “less than” based on a comment like that, when I find it a valuable tool to helping them remember the material. I don’t want them to feel like this is a waste of their time.”

      2. Dr. KMnO4*

        Thank you for this script! I especially like the reply in your second paragraph. I know that having the students do the activity is better for their retention, and my students gave me positive feedback about the activities on my first semester evaluations. Hopefully I can make my boss recognize that the activities are just as valid as talking at (aka lecturing) the students.

  121. Me*

    Dang it, I never have time to read through this whole thread, especially today.

    I have an interview later for an admin asst [actually receptionist :P] job. I’m a bit bummed about it–I don’t want to slide backward away from the technical editing work I did into the entry-level admin pool of tears. But it’s with a company that sells / rents A/V products, and if the pay is decent (I doubt it), maybe there is some doc work I could do there. All while continuing to apply for other jobs FAR FAR AWAY. FAST FAST FAST HURRY UP UNIVERSE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

    I found a tech editing job online in the area I want, in the state I want (it said multiple locations, but I expressed a strong preference for their headquarters), and it maaaaay be something I can do. Gonna apply. I still need to put something instructional up on my portfolio–I had nothing, but I crowd-sourced some ideas. Now if only I can get that done. Should I wait until I do it? Or just sent the app now? There’s no closing date on the listing but I don’t want to miss it.

    There’s an admin job at this same company, but I don’t want that one. I might MAYBE be able to live there on a higher level salary–if I could make a certain amount, there are apartments there I can possibly afford–plus I have experience living in less-than-desirable (cheaper) neighborhoods, LOL. Also, writing a cover letter to show that hey, I’m not limited to answering your phone, despite all the low-level crap jobs on my resume so please give me a shot! is fooking hard.

    4. Me*

      Aww, thanks, guys! :’}

      The job was very much basic entry-level front desk that I’ve done a hundred times, not anything I couldn’t do, and the Quickbooks and Excel stuff was data entry. BUT. It paid $2 less than my minimum (ouch), with NO vacation until a year out (one week!). And she was very particular about what kind of person they were looking for–which was all fine, until she got to “We are looking for someone who will be with us long-term, who wants to make a career at this company.” That. is. not. me.

      It felt like a complete lie to tell her of course I did when I don’t, and I have one foot outside the city limit already. So I fessed up. She was very grateful that I was honest about it. I would totes recommend their company to anyone looking for that service–they were extremely nice people. Also, I impulsively stopped by an old workplace near there and had a nice visit with an old boss I haven’t seen in ten years or so. Not mooching for contacts or anything, just to say hi. :)

      I’m going to whip up an instructional and apply to the editor job. I probably won’t get a reply, but if so, I praaaaay it’s the dream location and not any of the others.

  122. Huh*

    We interviewed a fantastic customer service applicant who also had an interview with our competitor company the previous day. He mentioned he cancelled and went home because they asked him to do a three hour work trial as part of the interview process!

    This strikes me as incredibly discourteous to job applicants. I can’t believe they are asked to do unpaid work for three hours. This is actually illegal here. Secondly, they came with the expectation of a meeting, not to perform three hours of work. If their recruitment process involves requiring applicants to provide unpaid work for several hours they need a better way of assessing candidate suitability.

    This is a prime example of losing a great candidate through a poor recruitment system. His career history is stable with evidence of quick promotions in every workplace. His references were glowing. He was willing to work any shifts given to him and was articulate, polite, and friendly. And will be starting work with us next week.

  123. Tricksie*

    I’m in the middle of conducting a hire and our first in-person interview self-revealed that she’s recently been written up by her current supervisor. She wanted to tell me first and wanted to make sure that–if we get to that point–she can explain it to me and it won’t be an automatic deal-breaker. We didn’t have time to go into the details at that moment, because of the day’s schedule. She’s an internal candidate and I know her supervisor, so I called right after our meetings. Apparently this candidate has a history of getting stressed about personal issues and taking out her anger on her boss and her co-workers. She has taken the warning to heart and has been on great behavior for 2 months (which is not long…).

    However…that’s a problem child I don’t need, right? Like…huge red flag? She did very well in the interviews, but we have a small and close team and I will NOT tolerate that treatment of the folks who work here…

    Would you write her off completely and immediately?

    1. Squeeble*

      Not necessarily. The fact that she revealed it herself indicates to me a lot of integrity and willingness to improve. It’s definitely something to watch, but I wouldn’t write her off immediately.

    2. Murphy*

      Not at all. She got ahead of it by giving you a heads up, and her boss said she’s been doing well. You shouldn’t discount her for being honest with you.

    3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      No, I wouldn’t write her off immediately. Two months seems like a decent start, and I believe people should get a genuine second chance if they’re putting in real effort. But….if there’s another equally promising candidate, that would be a strike in the con column….

    4. Apollo Warbucks*

      I would think about writing her off*, I’m cynical to think she only told you because it is an internal hire and she knows you can contact her current supervisor.

      *If it truly is an isolated incident and you have some context around the reason for the stress then that’s different, but if it is a persistent pattern of behaviour with no obvious trigger I wouldn’t hire her.

    5. yo yo yo*

      I think it depends on the context. I don’t think you have enough information to make it a firm “no.” I’d ask questions like…
      – How long has this been going on? Is this a new thing or something that has happened since day 1?
      – Why have her actions changed recently?
      -Has she been working with a therapist or done something with an EAP program?
      – Is it just that she has been made aware of her behavior recently? Sometimes people are clueless as to how they are acting towards others and a simple “Did you know that you XYZ when ABC happens?” is enough to get them back on track.

      In cases like this, some people are bad people and others are good people going through a bad time. I think you need to figure out which one is the case here and what her plan is moving forward.

    6. Huh*

      I would have reservations.

      Two months isn’t a long time to demonstrate change. Maybe in that short time she hasn’t experienced stress. If this is an ingrained stress response/personality trait I am doubtful it would really change that much in that short span of time.

      It would be different if the issue was something we could tolerate (eg “she’s a slow learner”). Otherwise I don’t want to take chances with someone who is known to cause problems for other staff. I wouldn’t want to hire her, experience the same issues, then feel foolish because I had prior warning about it.

    7. Trout 'Waver*

      I would write them off, tbh. 2 months isn’t that long, and I would be worried they’re only on their best behavior while they’re applying to new jobs.

    8. Tricksie*

      Thanks, everyone! We have two more candidates in next week, so we’ll see. If she ends up the top candidate, I’ll have to have more conversations about this before making a decision.

      I appreciate the opinions.

    9. ..Kat..*

      If you want to hire her, I suggest you make it very clear that if she acts out (even once), she will be fired. And, I would only hire her if I knew I would be allowed to fire her. Would your boss back you up? Are managers at your company allowed to fire people? Does it take years of lots of effort and work on the part of a manager to be able to fire someone?

  124. Turkletina*

    I have two questions today.

    First, I got feedback from an interviewer that said “your presentation of your skills and [industry] knowledge was not as confident as we expected from your cover letter”. (To Alison’s credit, she also said my cover letter was excellent.) Any tips on improving the confidence of my presentation? I don’t think this was due to lack of practice — more like hedging and downplaying my own experience — and I’m curious if anyone else has learned to overcome this kind of thing.

    Second, I got an interview request this week that asked me to bring an official transcript and “three signed letters of recommendation”. I’ve never had to do this before, and I’m coming from a field where it’s not standard for the candidate to see the references’ letters (where they exist). I’ve asked the interviewer, but I haven’t heard back yet. Do I really need to bring a hard copy of a hand-signed letter with me to the interview? Would it be out-of-touch to ask the references to email the letters to the hiring committee?

    1. ArtK*

      If you want the job with the reference requirement, then you should jump through their hoops as they specify them. Otherwise you mark yourself as someone who can’t follow directions.

      That said, I would be leery of interviewing with a company that is asking for references up front, especially if that’s not the industry norm. I’d also be very peeved that they were asking for a transcript for anything but an entry level position (and I’d be raising my eyebrows at that, too.) Personally, I’d walk away from this one. It doesn’t sound like they have a good hiring process.

      1. Turkletina*

        I would agree that these were reddish flags if it weren’t a public university. Things can be unpredictable kinds of weird in that domain.

        1. Dr. KMnO4*

          Official transcripts are a pretty typical part of university hiring IME. Usually they don’t ask you to bring the letters with you, though. I do find that part of it odd. You might just have your letter writers send the letters to the interviewers. If the interviewers ask you could always mention how it allows letter writers to be more candid when they know the job seeker won’t see the letter.

        2. fposte*

          I think you do it how you got asked to do it. Requiring letters of recommendation with application is pretty common at universities, including mine; the signed paper request is weirdly old-school, but it wouldn’t necessarily make me balk at the job itself unless I was applying to Records or something. I would ask your recommenders to email you PDFs as well if possible, just in case, but if they asked for paper I’d bring paper.

    2. Tricksie*

      Our university requires official transcripts for ANY position. Period. The signed letters are unusual, though.

      1. Turkletina*

        Yeah, that part’s not too weird to me. (The fact that my university charges $27.50 for a transcript that they can’t guarantee will arrive within two weeks is another story altogether. I just paid $23 on top of that for rush processing. )

  125. Embarassed*

    I manage a store, and once every few months we have meetings at a hotel about 2.5 hours away from the town that I live. A rep flies in from the Corp Office and we go over sales and management tactics,

    There are 3 stores in this area, so I carpool with 2 other managers, The guy who drove today (Kenton) has a small back seat and I wanted to nap, so when I got dressed this am, I just threw some socks on and carried my boots, I figured I would put them on after the drive.

    We met at the drivers house, and I grabbed my coffee, bag, a bag of merchandise and my boots, set them on the roof of the other car, loaded most everything, but somehow forgot my boots on the roof of the car, and when we got to Los Angeles and are pulling up at the hotel I first realized I didn’t have them.

    Kenton offered to drive me to a store real quick, but we were already a little late and ran into the V-P in the parking lot. So I spent the day shoeless, I explained to everyone what happened, and they all said not to worry about it, but since are tables were in a big circle, there was really no place to hide my feet.

    The V-P made a comment saying “I want to thank most of you for wearing shoes”, but was otherwise nice about it,

    But we had some new managers, and I also had to walk across a crowded hotel lobby several times, Orange top, black pants, white and pink socks and no shoes. Be honest, what would you think if you saw me.

    1. Manders*

      I’d probably be thinking, “There but for the grace of waking up early to drink some coffee go I,” especially if I knew the story about the forgotten boots. I have done some weird things on morning autopilot.

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      I’d think it was humorous, tbh. Everyone’s done something like that at some point in their life. It sounds like you handled it fine. I would have also offered you a ride to pick up some cheap shoes if there was a lunch break.

    3. Isben Takes Tea*

      Honestly? I would think “That person must be having a hell of a day,” and want to compliment you on your sock choice, but probably wouldn’t in case it would embarrass you.

    5. ..Kat..*

      I would think either (a) she has an interesting story to tell or (b) wow, she’s so confident, she can go shoeless!

  126. Joan Holloway*

    Yesterday, with the full support of my husband, parents, friends (essentially anyone I could get on the phone during my lunch break), I decided to curtail my notice period a day early after getting chewed out (for the umpteenth time) by my mercurial, verbally abusive boss. I gave him a standard notice period and as luck would have it we were able to hire my replacement the same week that I gave notice, so this whole week has been spent training her and trying to close out as many projects as possible to make her transition to the role much smoother than mine was when I began two years ago. Over time I created innumerable training materials, “cheat sheets,” and a much more organized system of entering and storing essential information. He decided training week was the time to dump 2 months worth of unassigned work onto the two of us, and then when I wasn’t able to complete all the tasks he expected or walk her through as many items as he demanded he got extremely upset and told me if I couldn’t be respectful and do what he asked then we could part ways. I helped the new girl as much as I could and let him know I would not be returning after I worked out the day.

    I’m an extremely anxious person and I’ve never not worked out my notice period. Please send support/stories of your own experiences to help me with this funk I’m feeling.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Don’t feel bad for a second. Your notice period is for transitioning, not for new unassigned work, and he was playing dirty pool. He’s as ass and you did nothing I wouldn’t have done in the same position.

    2. ArtK*

      Nothing from my experience, but you did exactly as I would have in that situation. The notice period is really a courtesy to your old employer. Abusing that courtesy is grounds for walking away.

    3. LCL*

      I gave two weeks notice during our busiest time of year. Huge national company, thousands of employees so I wasn’t sentencing anyone to 80 hour weeks to make up for my absence. Boss said ‘If that’s the way you feel, why don’t you quit now?’ Since I had a job lined up that paid 5X what I was making, hence the notice, I said OK, bye.

    4. Drew*

      As Alison has said, more than once, a notice period is a courtesy unless you’ve signed a contract mandating it. Part of that courtesy is the implication that this is a professional decision that will be handled professionally by all parties. Your boss is abrogating his side of that deal, and you’re not required to put up with it. It sounds like you handled it perfectly; you didn’t walk off the job immediately (although IMO you would have been entitled to) and you spent the rest of the day offloading your tasks onto your replacement.

      Your boss is an ass and you’re well rid of him.

      Story time: I have once and only once walked off a job. It was a crappy minimum-wage second part-time job in college, meant to give me a little extra spending money, with limits both on available hours and total hours per week that I told them about when I was hired. In the three months I was there, THE ENTIRE STAFF except for the owner and two managers turned over. The week I quit, they scheduled me for over 30 hours of work, including closing the two nights I specifically said I could not close *and* shifts scheduled against my classes and my primary job, which had a fixed weekly schedule I had told them about a month earlier. I called in to say there literally was not a single shift they scheduled me for that I was able to work and was told “We’re already short-handed, so you have to work those shifts.” I drove over there immediately, turned in my uniform, and told them to mail me my last paycheck.

  127. CM*

    Happy story. I’ve read here about how people can be allies to their coworkers who aren’t taken seriously by echoing what they say and giving them credit, like, “I support Sophie’s idea of reinforcing our handles.” Today I was in a meeting with the CEO of our company. I’m fairly new and I’ve only met him a handful of times. Another high-level person made a comment, and the CEO said, “Yes, that’s what CM already said.” That was unexpected and I really appreciated it!

  128. Bork*

    Fashion Industry question!

    I was wondering if there were any fashion people industry who read this blog and a few days ago a saw a screen name along the lines of “probably the only fashion designer here”. You made me LOL, btw.

    There is a clothing company that has a cult following (as many do) and I have noticed over and over again in the reviews, “The HELIX II was my favorite. Why can’t they bring the II back? Please bring back the II. I would buy all of them.” Now they are on version IV, but I’ve noticed this with a lot of their clothes. Customers like the 2012 version, but then they discontinue it and never bring it back. While moving forward is good, it seems all their customers are begging for their old stuff. People just want the same thing, maybe in a different color.
    DVF hasn’t changed her wrap dresses has she(?), so why can’t this company just stick to their “oldies but goodies”? How do fashion companies take customer input? I just want to know all the inside fashion industry secrets. Tell the AAM things we might not know about your world :)

    1. Manders*

      I don’t work in the fashion industry, but from what I’ve read, styles turn over fast in women’s fashion because well-made, well-kept clothing can last a very long time. A company that wants to keep making money has to either make clothes out of materials that will fall apart eventually, or keep changing the style so customers will buy new pieces. The brands that make durable, timeless pieces usually make money by being very expensive.

      Diane von Furstenberg actually does put out new wrap dresses every year and retires the old styles. If you look up the old versions vs. what’s available now you’ll see variations in sleeve length, collars, prints, etc. Some of the 40-year-old dresses would look dated today. It’s a little more subtle than most clothing lines because the silhouette of the dress doesn’t change as dramatically as you’re used to seeing from other brands.

    2. fposte*

      Another person not in fashion weighing in nonetheless–I believe manufacturing and supply are pretty volatile (note how you can get the “same” dress the next year but it’s made in a different country), so that it’s easy for the cost of production to change and make an item no longer profitable. It’s also possible that despite all the people they say they want the Helix II, when it came to actual purchases the Helix II sales showed a decline and that’s why they moved onto the Helix III.

      1. Manders*

        Yes, that’s a good point. The vast majority of consumers aren’t writing to the company or going to forums to talk about a brand, they’re just walking into a store and choosing the product they like best. The most visible fans may not actually be driving that many sales.

        There are also some industries where the illusion of scarcity or the belief that a beloved product will go away actually helps the bottom line.

  129. CrinklyLamé*

    I’ve been at the same company for ten years. I started out in a creative design and production role and moved up to a more design/coordination role. In the past two years, however, my job description has changed dramatically because my industry has changed dramatically, causing the structure of the company to change dramatically. (It’s all very dramatic.) So now, I still do design work, but the bulk of my job is much more marketing and sales oriented. I help in research, prospecting and campaign building for our sales staff, as well as doing back-end admin work in setting up campaigns.

    I’m glad that my superiors thought I was capable of handling this kind of work and I’m glad they value me enough to fit me into a position that lets them actually keep me employed here. But the truth is, I’m very uncomfortable with it. I have minimal marketing experience and there’s a lot of numbers involved (including client’s money) and I get some pretty severe math anxiety. I’m also a little uncomfortable and confused about the way it was handled. I was never warned that it was coming. And in fact, I found out the extent of the change pretty piece-meal. It started as “Oh, you’ll be learning to use this platform from one of our vendors” and went to “Oh yeah, your job title is changing, you report to this person now and your desk is being moved, here’s your new official job description.” I felt totally blindsided.

    I guess my question is, is this sort of sudden switcharoo normal? I’ve only worked at one other company and that was for two years right out of school. Am I naive to feel like I should have been let into the discussion a little earlier? I’m not naive enough to think I would have any veto power other than resigning, but I should have been told up front that my entire job description was changing, right? Has this sort of thing happened to anyone else? How did you handle an uncomfortable transition? I’m sure my discomfort is showing. I feel so much less confident in my work these days and that frustration is hard to conceal sometimes.

    1. Chaordic One*

      I don’t know if this is normal or not, but I have been in similar situations where I was pushed into handling detailed paperwork, including billing, because (and I’m going to brag a little here) I really am quite good at it. However, while I don’t mind filling in and doing that kind of work when needed, I didn’t want to do it regularly and I ended up leaving that particular employer to get back to doing more creative work.

  130. smokey*

    My husband has been at a food-service job for over 5 years. His boss is cheap, but decent. The only way to get a raise is to ask for one, and my husband wants to do that. But our 10-year anniversary is in the fall and he wants 2 weeks off. He doesn’t take a lot of time off but that will of course be an imposition, so he needs to mention it soon to come across as considerate. My question is should he ask for both at once or put some space between? Which first, and how much space? (He doesn’t get vacation time or anything. Other coworkers, esp the students, regularly take whole seasons off but he’s in the most understaffed area by far.)

  131. Great #2*

    I just had a revelation: I’m better suited to support roles than leadership roles.

    I’m a nonprofit program person; I don’t mean administrative support (although I suspect I’d be good at that). What I mean is that I thrive on providing backup, extra hands, thought partnership, to leaders… rather than leading myself. One of my core values is “helping,” and this kind of work draws on that value. Also, I just don’t enjoy the exposure of leadership — my anxiety gets out of control when I feel exposed like that.

    I don’t know what to do with that revelation. How do I use it in considering (and applying for) future work? I’ve been very successful; I’m the kind of employee that bosses see a future for, and try to create opportunities for. I’m in a situation now where I let a boss move me into a leadership role that I’m not enjoying and frankly am not great at. I’d much rather go back to the work I was doing previous to this, which was a secondary/support role on another program.

    Thoughts?

    1. helper, not leader*

      Are you me? Every word of this resonated. I think this is more common than people think, actually. I’ve had some luck convincing higher-ups to turn me into a project manager. What that means is I work on projects that require a lot of collaboration with other departments and the higher-ups, but I’m not actually a people manager. It’s a win-win for them, and for me: they get a senior person who knows her stuff, and I get higher-level work and get to contribute in a big way without having to lead a team (which is anxiety-inducing for me). This has worked really well in my current workplace, but I am nervous about what will happen when it’s time to leave. My role was basically created for me and something I transitioned into over time. Everything on the market is either a) a few steps below what I’m doing now, or b) a full-on leadership role.

    2. paul*

      Right there with you and it’s an issue I’m still navigating re: career advancement. I don’t *want* to be a manager. But I’d still like to advance.

    3. Damn it, Hardison!*

      This is me as well. My strongest skill is operationalizing whatever strategy someone else comes up with. I’m lucky in that my current manager values the operations side. I think it’s assumed by most people that everyone wants to “be a leader” but you can be successful without being “in charge.” I think of it as little l leadership.

  132. Sustainable Building in Portland, OR*

    Pretty sure this will get lost in the Fri thread, but!!

    I’m looking to relocate from the Midwest to Portland, OR near end of May this year.
    I work very entry-level construction (general contractor) atm, and hold a BA in psych, though i think from my experience over the last year w my current company, I’ve become really interested in the construction industry.

    Id like to focus on sustainable architecture/building, either commercial or residential. Anyone have any info on how to get started on that in a new area, or maybe work in that field already (not necessarily in Portland)? I’d love to hear more about what additional education/certificates/training/volunteering could help me move into that field.

    1. NW Mossy*

      I’m a Midwest to PDX transplant myself (2009), so I’ll offer up some thoughts from that point of view. I don’t work in construction, but can say that your interest in sustainability will get lots of feeding here, especially on the residential side. If you’re curious about it, you might also look into learning about ADUs (Accessory Dwelling Units) – they’re becoming extremely popular locally as a way to increase housing stock (which we desperately need!) without contributing to sprawl (which we don’t).

      One thing that was both readily apparent when I first moved here is that people are very nice, and that can trend into being overly solicitous at times – “No, after you, my good sir!” is practically the local driver’s motto. It also shows up as an extreme aversion to conflict, especially at work, and that is still hard for me to get used to. I cut my working teeth in Chicago where you’re expected to be direct to the point of bluntness; here, that can quickly come off as hostile. I’m still caught off guard occasionally when I say something in a meeting that seems benign to me but the stunned-bunny look on my colleagues’ faces tells me that inside they’re thinking, “Way harsh, Tai.”

      1. Sustainable Building in Portland, OR*

        Thank you so much for answering!
        My company does commercial work, but outside of work i read about sustainable residential building/tech; sustainable building is just important to me on a personal level, so just being involved would be a great starting point. There’s not a ton of traction for that interest where i am locally, but that’s changing.. though slowly. From what I’ve read, there is much more interest up in the Portland/Seattle region, so it’s great to hear that concurred.
        ADUs sound like some awesome reading/studying material for me, esp as my SO & I want to (someday) have a small piece of land to experiment w building/crafting things & be general botanophiles.. w lots of cats : ) Eventually, i want to be involved w large structures, but small living units are easier to test, let alone their immediate practicality, as you mentioned. & I love the land-use protection in Portland, so it would be inspiring to work within those boundaries.

        Oh, & im actually originally from the deep south, so the culture change doesn’t sound too shocking! I know it can be a tough, drastic culture change, so good on you for taking that on.

        You may have just helped me make up my mind – again, much thanks!

    2. writelhd*

      I work in sustainable construction, mostly residential side, but on completely opposite side of the country. I suppose it depends on what part of the construction world you want to get into, though. If you’re a GC and want to keep being a GC, research green building certification programs to certify the projects you’re working on under: Energy Star or DOE Zero Energy Ready Homes program for residential, LEED for commercial. If you want to be more of a consultant, there are people who make businesses of certifying homes or buildings under those programs by getting training to be a Rater, though these people often start their own businesses after getting training and that can probably be tough. GCs hire Raters to oversee their certification. I don’t work as much in commercial but I would imagine it requires more certification and experience. On the residential side, you could look for what’s called HERS Rating companies in the area, these people often offer consulting services for various residential green programs to GCs. Check out the national organization called RESNET and check out the HERS Index.

      1. Sustainable Building in Portland, OR*

        Wow, thank you!! I’m looking into some of the resources you mentioned right now, but I will delve further when I get off work. This will be fantastic knowledge when screening for companies I would like to work with.

        Im not sure i want to stay in the GC sector, but right now it’s what I’m familiar with. I graduated in May 2015, & I’ve been taking the time since to gain office/professional experience & look into fields I’d want to be in permanently. I like to design, too; actually designing affordable sustainable homes would be a dream, but a dream that requires knowledge i must earn. I think being around a population that is more sustainable-minded will be good for me too, & really help me narrow down what exactly i think my best contribution would be to that field.

        Oh, & btw, you have fans out there. I am one of them : ) I think what you do is so cool, & very seriously important. Rock on

        1. writelhd*

          I think being the GC on a project that gets green certified would probably be an easier way to get the experience in the door if you already have GC experience. And also give you the most REAL influence on how it really goes down in the field. Design, especially commercial design, tends to be done by architects, and I just don’t know much about how they get their feet in the door, (I imagine architecture school is required?) or how competitive that is, not having gone that path myself. It does seem like a lot of those roles: GC, architect, HERS rater, involve potentially starting your own venture or working under a mentor who did.

  133. Fawnling*

    I’m having an issue with an intern and I’d love some advice.

    I’ve talked about this intern before on here. I work IT in the public sector and he was hired on last summer to get some on-the-job training as well as experience for his resume. The position is part-time and all interns are encouraged to work their full schedule every week but can take off days here and there as long as we have advanced notice. This intern in particular has not worked a full week since hired. He regularly takes off a week or more at a time without any notice and they are always excuses such as school scheduling (twice he had to take a week off because his online classes were messed up so he had to do a full 8 hours a day in class to “catch up”), being stranded at his parents’ house 2 hours away without a means to get back, we’ll have an inch or two of snow and he won’t show up for a week because his car is snowed in, etc. etc. I can remember 4 or 5 times he won’t show up because he has a lot of homework or exams were stressful so he needed time to decompress.

    I’ve sat and talked with him about attendance and letting us know each day that he will not be there as he has a habit of saying on Monday “I can’t make it today for x reason” then just not show up the rest of the week without contact. This is a monthly conversation and I’d like to terminate him but I do not have the power to do so. My supervisor DOES have the power but thinks it’s better to have a crappy intern than no intern at all – my department is very short staffed and interns take care of the low-level work so we can work on bigger projects.

    Which brings us to last week. Intern comes to me and says he has a college course which will allow his internship to get him credits. He asks me to just sign the paper and give it back to him but I realize that I’m supposed to read his assignments and check off on them for this class. He’s also supposed to have a *minimum* of 20 hours a week of on the job training. Long story short, the assignment was due that night and he was hoping I wouldn’t see that I had to check off his written assignments. I refused to sign until he sent me his work. He finally sent me his work at 10pm that night and I jumped through hoops to get the paper signed for him and sent to his school email. The next day he leaves 2 hours early and calls out the rest of the week putting him at a total of 14 hours for the week.

    Monday he tells me he needs to leave early 2 days this week for projects. I mention the 20-hour limit on his internship class and how he was already behind 6 hours from last week and that I could possibly make arrangements for him to make that up but that he would need to also work his full 20 this week. He starts getting nervous and says that his instructor says he has a “bank of hours” from his first two weeks back to class since his internship “technically did not start until last week” and that he was just going to pull hours out of that time bank.

    I’m calling bullshit on this and I feel it is unethical to sign off on his project if he is not putting in the necessary time or following the instructions for his class. I am in a college city and we are a huge organization and are very attractive for internships because of how good it looks on a resume. I feel that it would be a huge issue if I was found signing off on his internship credits if he did not properly complete them. Am I being crazy? How do I handle this? Do I contact his internship coordinator and clarify on this bank of time? I’d really like to fire this intern but I will need something to bring to my boss as he is apathetic about the situation.

    1. Jessesgirl72*

      I would likely call his coordinator. At minimum, I’d refuse to sign off on anything else, especially at the last minute, and if he hadn’t completed what he was supposed to complete.

      Hopefully the coordinator will give you what you need to convince the boss to fire him. How can he be better than nothing, anyway, when you never know if he will show up, or for how long?

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I would sit him down and plainly state that as far as you’re concerned he’s not putting in the hours you need from him and are unwilling to sign off on his internship assignments unless he’s in the office 20 hours a week and returns work to you on deadline. I’d make it clear that there will be no more 10pm submittals or jumping through hoops, and no unexpected “I can’t make it today” or “I need to decompress” weeks.

      And yes, I’d ask the internship coordinator for the current balance of his time bank and provide an estimate of the number of hours he’s fallen short by to compare.

    3. Nan*

      I wouldn’t sign it, and I’d call to clarify with his coordinator. Internships are a place to learn about the real world. And in my real world, you need to get your stuff done.

    4. Christian Troy*

      I’m not sure how or why this person as continued staying at your organization, but he’s shown he’s unreliable on numerous occasions. If he doesn’t work 20 hours a week, he doesn’t work 20 hours a week. I think you have to tell him flat out you can’t attest to that because it’s not true and put him on some kind of PIP or terminate his internship. This sounds like way too much drama.

      1. Fawnling*

        It’s exhausting. Unfortunately I don’t have the power for PIP or termination but if I did I would have done it months ago.

    5. ArtK*

      First off, you should have explained professional behavior and the consequences of not following it. As in, “pull the no-call-no-show for a week and you needn’t bother coming back.” I think you were far too accommodating. At this point, put it to him bluntly “Either you show up on time, get your work done on time, communication when you aren’t going to be here and put in all 20 hours, or you’re gone.” Don’t even address the credit thing. If you had a regular employee doing this, wouldn’t you explain that they’re about to be fired (or simply fire them)?

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        You missed the part where she doesn’t have the authority to fire him, and the boss won’t because he thinks an unreliable intern is better than no one.

      2. Fawnling*

        Hi ArtK, as Jessesgirl72 has mentioned I do not have the authority to fire him – only manage him. Without Boss’s support, Intern can pretty much do what he wants. I’ve went to my boss each time Intern has not showed up (which has been almost 40 times since starting his internship last June) hoping that I’d be enough of a pain in the ass to get him to see the big picture – he hasn’t.

    6. MoinMoin*

      I agree with everything said above, and would add that you’re not doing him any favors letting him slide like this. I could easily see myself being like him back when I was a student. In high school I never turned in homework but skated by with high test scores, being generally liked and participatory in class, and occasionally pulling an all-nighter to complete a big paper or project. This didn’t really change in college -it was probably worse because I wasn’t usually held accountable for my attendance- and I’d usually end up being allowed to turn things in late because I was a good student in class. Looking back I cringe at how inconsiderate I was to their time and I really wish they’d held be accountable now that I’m in the workforce. It’s a lesson that would have behooved me to learn much earlier.
      Even if you don’t have an interest in doing the tough love thing for him -and I don’t blame you for that- I don’t think it would reflect well on you or your company if it’s ever found out. He’s probably the same in school, so it seems very possible that this will come to light and even if it doesn’t, I wouldn’t be surprised if it garners you some side-eye (e.g. “I know this kid as a student; either he’s a completely different person as an intern or this company doesn’t have very high standards for their interns”).

    7. neverjaunty*

      You don’t have the power to fire him, but you do have the power NOT to lie to his instructor.

      Don’t sign off on his credits, and do talk to his coordinator. I bet she has no clue about these “banked” hours or the time he’s taking off.

      1. ..Kat..*

        I agree. Also, don’t kill yourself at 10 pm to meet the deadline when he can’t get his assignment to you in a timely manner.

    8. Anono-me*

      I know that I am late to the post, but I hope you see this.

      I think you checking on your intern’s plan of carrying forward hours is a good idea. Especially as the phase “minimum of 20 hours a week” was used. (And because it sounds like even more work for you to keep track of.)

      I would however suggest approaching it differently. I would say to the intern “The paperwork you gave me says “minimum of 20 hours a week”, I need something in writing from your Class Instructor about the special arrangement. Please have her email me with the details. But, until you have her email me, I can not sign of on less than 20 hours in an actual week.”

      I would also say something to the intern like “If you have more special projects requiring my input/signature, please get them to me in a timely manner, as in the future I will not be staying late or pushing back my actual work.to help you with them at the last minute.”

      This intern is asking you for something extra and don’t seem to have grasped the real life (and work) concept of ‘Try NOT to make it more difficult than necessary for people to do you the favor you have requested.’ I think this is a good thing to learn.

      I am unsure from your post if the talks about showing up for work and other issues have been focusing on the immediate concerns or the Big Picture. If you have not had a Big Picture talk; I would try a frank discussion with this intern about how the way he has been handling the responsibilities of this internship means that the internship might be negative on the resume. Because most future employers will be contacting your organization for references. References that will be accurate, including the fact that if he were a probationary employee not an intern, he might have been terminated by now. Maybe that will be the wake up call that improves both your situations.

      Good luck.

      The above suggestions are based upon my take that managing this intern is part of your job duties, but turning yourself onto a pretzel bending over backwards for him is not. And that the intern has already been asked if there are any extenuating circumstances.

    9. Observer*

      Call his internship coordinator. I have no doubt that the coordinator would be VERY interested in what you have to say.

      Also, let your intern know that you are not going to accommodate him again if he brings you something to sign off on without sufficient lead time. And spell out for him what that means. The idea that he sent you something that you need to spend time on at 10:00pm the night before it’s due is simply appalling.

    10. Chaordic One*

      I don’t think you’re being crazy and in my experience with interns very few of them are as cavalier as the one you have. I would certainly hold out and not sign it.

      Furthermore, I can’t believe that it would be that difficult to attract interns. Most of them are indeed inexperienced, but really do want to learn what they can and to get work experience.

  134. Master Bean Counter*

    In my near future I have an opportunity for a title change/slight role change. With the resignation of a team member the company I work for has decided to switch around job roles again. This would be more fun if it wasn’t happening every other month lately, but I digress.
    There is talk of making my title Assistant Controller, but I’m thinking Accounting Manager might be better. With my coworker leaving I’ve taken on the day-to-day management of most off the team now. And honestly my resume could use the word manager on it in an official title.

    But I’m not sure this is a good move. Opinions?

    1. rubyrose*

      To a non bean counter, Accounting Manager sounds better for two reasons. One is that word manager in the title. The other is that while Controller is impressive (remember, non bean counter), the Assistant part is not. And nothing about that says you are managing people. If they are set on using the word Controller, at least could it be Associate Controller?

  135. Anon10111973*

    Has anyone ever fostered a good-natured competition between departments and had it work out to permanent benefit?

    Our work documentation is still heavily paper oriented and thus subject to audit. We have excellent GMP and Rules of Documentation in place but in several departments the expectations are very low (The supervisors have been covering for their operators forever.) The current response to errors is to put a sticky note on anything that does not affect product release and chase the person down later (guess whose job that is!).

    Our average accuracy rate for the last 6 months is 93.69%. The plant manager’s goal is 99.5%.

    All employees have been retrained on ROD, I have worked specifically with the worst offenders and seen improvement. We have evaluated all forms and points of data entry and seen improvement with those changes. I think a few write ups have even happened (unheard of).

    How do I give them a kick in the pants to hit our goal now instead of in another 6 months? And maintain it?

    The task really is a no-brainer once you get in the habit!

    1. MoinMoin*

      Sorry if this is obvious, but it seems like it’d make more sense to reward that habit for individuals over time rather than a competition that would focus on the end result? This is a common tactic for stuff like losing weight, but I’d think you can adapt some of those methods to business, i.e. building habit loops (cue, routine, reward), Seinfeld’s “don’t break the chain” thing, etc like seeing who can go the longest/ do the task the most without an error?

  136. Can't Sit Still*

    My interview this week didn’t go particularly well. I met with a ton of people, but no one had any questions for me. After 2 hours, I ran out of my own questions, because I was getting the same responses from each person. Every single person I met with mentioned how stellar my resume was, and my interview had all the hallmarks of a preferred candidate for the industry. I had initially thought that this might just be the way they do things there, but several of the interviewers remarked on how unusual it was. It seriously felt like a Groundhog Day interview, due to all of the repetition.

    I left feeling frustrated. While this company is regarded as a truly great place to work with very low turnover, I’m not sure I could deal with that kind of vagueness every day.

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      If I went through that, I’d assume they had already decided to hire an internal candidate but needed to go through the motions.

      1. Can't Sit Still*

        I had assumed they had already made a decision after my second phone interview, but I had hoped I was wrong when they wanted an in person interview. I guess I should have gone with my first instinct.

  137. Lady Dedlock*

    I’m feeling kind of worried about myself because I’ve been making more typos than usual lately. I’ve discovered several pretty embarrassing ones in my emails after I’ve received replies (“maunscript” for “manuscript”, “store” for “story”, “it’s” for “its”). This is especially bad because I’m an editor. At worst, if I make errors like this in a higher-stakes context, it could cost me my job; even at best, this kind of thing could really damage my reputation.

    Anyone else ever go through something like this? Did it self-correct at some point, or did you have to take steps to achieve a resolution?

    I’ve been under a lot of stress lately due to the high volume of work in my department, but I don’t know if that’s an adequate excuse, or if there’s something more sinister at play here.

    1. Jessesgirl72*

      Have you had your eyes checked lately? If you’re doing a much larger volume of work, it could be simple eye strain.

        1. Jessesgirl72*

          Has it gotten worse since the new prescription? They don’t always get them perfect. (My husband had his changed, had headaches, and then when he went next, they put it back at the prescription he had previously… a year with a too-strong prescription!)

          I wish I had more to suggest. It’s so hard to properly proof your own work. :(

          1. Lady Dedlock*

            Thanks… appreciate the suggestion. I actually got the new prescription three months after a prior prescription; I went back and needed a stronger pair. These seem to suit me better. So I’m thinking it’s not my eyes that are at fault but my language, attention, or motor skills, or some combination thereof.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      If you’re dealing with a high volume of work specifically as a source of your stress, are you (consciously or otherwise) trying to race through tasks? The typos you listed seem like really easy ones to make when you’re pushing yourself to type or process faster. Would consciously slowing down a little when you’re sending important emails be helpful?

      1. Lady Dedlock*

        I think it’s at least partly trying to do things quickly, and at least partly having my attention divided between multiple things (having too many tasks open, getting distracted by people stopping by or emailing me something else to do). Slowing down sounds like a very reasonable suggestion. It’s just kind of jarring to me to have to think about it consciously, because things just used to come off my fingers correctly without me having to proof my own work carefully.

    3. MoinMoin*

      Would putting a 1 minute delay on sent items help? I feel like sometimes I reread something, send it, then read again and realize there’s something I want to change. Especially when I’m feeling stressed or under the gun. Even if I know the email won’t send quite yet, I automatically de-stress a little once I hit the ‘Send’ button and I think it helps me read things through a different perspective.

      1. Lady Dedlock*

        Hmm, not sure. For all the examples I mentioned, I caught the errors way after the fact (i.e., only when someone responded to me and I saw my original email again). But the de-stressing effect you mention of having a delay on your emails intrigues me. I’ll take any sort of de-stressing method I can get, at this point! (I know it’s bad because I keep getting facial twitches, and I only get those when I’m stressed.)

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’ve had moments of making those types of mistakes– small things. In my case, it’s almost always a matter of taking in tons of information without taking the time to properly process it all. High volume of work? Ripe environment for making mistakes. If you can, try to slow down and take some brain breaks.

      There are autocorrect options you can use. I’m pretty sure they exist in most email clients, but I know they’re in Microsoft Word. I recently wrote a report in which I had to use the word “public” a lot, and I set up something that automatically corrected it if I accidentally left out the “l”. So for the short-term, I’d recommend using some of those tools if they’re available to you.

      1. Lady Dedlock*

        Thanks, that’s probably a good stopgap solution. You just prompted me to find Gmail’s “Check spelling” option, which I didn’t know existed.

    5. Anxa*

      Yes.

      Two issues for me:
      1) I think my prescription is off for my glasses. I can’t afford a new exam or glasses for a while, but it’s definitely been bumped to high up on the list of splurges. I have a birthday coming up and I’m hoping that if my mom gives me birthday cash I’ll treat myself!

      2) Cognititive decline. Since I’ve been about 13 years old, I’ve been feeling more and more mentally sluggish. Exercise helps in theory, but anything that involves gym equipment or sweating ends up taking long enough to clean up after before the benefit is lost. I’m hoping to get a few really sturdy not-sports-bras that would be good for short bursts of cardio that I could wear as part of my regular wardrobe one day.

      3) I have to print pretty much everything. The past decade has kind of sucked because do you know how many places are switched to all digital? I don’t think I have the capacity to keep up.

      1. Lady Dedlock*

        13 seems pretty early for cognitive decline to be starting. Could some other health issue be at play? Perhaps I’m wrong, but at 31, I’m feeling like it’s a little early for my own performance to have deteriorated so dramatically. (I seem to have gotten much worse over the past month or so, though, so I don’t think it’s simply the effect of aging, unless your cognitive abilities go off a cliff once you turn 31.)

        And I agree that it’s tough to proof everything on the screen. All of my editing work is done digitally, but for longer pieces, I do at least one pass on paper—partly because I just catch different things, seeing it in print, and partly because it’s easier to focus without having email notifications in your line of sight (and all the temptations of the internet at your fingertips).

        1. Anxa*

          you know, I probably shouldn’t have used the phrase cognitive decline.

          What I mean is, I felt more smarter when I was 13. There could be a health issue (depression, thyroid, undiagnosed adhd-pi, dsps), but I just know I’m not as quick or bright as I used to be.

          I do sometimes take my glasses of at the computer. I know when I was first given glasses, I was told they ‘weren’t for reading.’ Reading and computer work are still more comfortable without them on, but my vision, even near, isnt’ good enough not to want to wear them.

          I’m lucky enough that I don’t necessarily need glasses to just walk around and stuff. Although for the past 2 years I’ve started to not feel ‘dressed’ without them.

  138. writelhd*

    Passing responsibilities on to others, who do not share my priorities, is tricky. Cause I’m a control freak.

    My job is to broadly ensure that our teapots are as environmentally sustainable as possible. Toward this aim our products get inspected by a third party for compliance with a voluntary environmental standard that goes above and beyond industry practice, one that is recognized and valued by our customers. I set this guideline, selected the third party standard, and created the policy for how we will implement. For a while I took a very hands-on approach by scheduling their environmental inspections for every project myself, attending those inspections, and overseeing what stuff needed to get changed as a result and reporting back to the group on what was learned and best practices. I learned a lot from this. However, the teapot construction supervisor (not my boss, my peer) is asking the teapot construction superintendents (his reports, who manage all the day to day aspects of individual teapot construction projects) to get waaaay better at scheduling all things, and he told me that he’d like me to pass on the role of scheduling, attending, and dealing with the results of environmental inspections directly to the superintendents, so that they’ll take on ownership of and responsibility for compliance themselves, not just throw that responsibility on to me as they had been doing. In theory I’ve shown them how on enough projects, now they need to implement, and my doing it for them could also be seen as enabling them not have to pay attention to it themselves.

    On the one hand this is a relief, as keeping track of project status and inserting myself at just the right time was stressful. Them being told by their boss they must taking ownership of this means I can be a resource to them when they have questions but otherwise move on to other aspects of my job.

    On the other hand, the results of these inspections are a big part of the metrics I’m broadly responsible for overseeing. We’ve done really well at them because *I* paid a lot of attention to detail, and I’ve seen firsthand that if I don’t check some things, they get missed. However I’ve decided my task now is to remind the superintendents what they need to do, but let them fail if they’re going to ignore that, and thus learn what they need to pay attention to the hard way. That feels destructive, because it might cost company time and resources and possibly inconvenience a customer, which isn’t fair to that customer, and might make my environmental metrics suffer for a bit. But if my role is not just to oversee our environmental standards but actually the bigger one of weaving them into the capabilities of the entire company in ways that don’t depend solely on me, this feels like the right move.

  139. caledonia*

    Social media.

    I work in admissions for a uni and for my course, we interview in person.

    The applicants have a country wide Facebook group and they are giving mis-information and panicking people because Jane Doe got an offer today but John Snow hasn’t heard anything and he was there at the same time.

    Grrrr.

    Also, academics – stay in your lane, people.

      1. Caledonia*

        (I was on my phone before so my comment cut out) but an academic answered an admissions query with something quite blunt (I don’t know, I send it to admissions and they tell you) whereas I feel they should’ve passed it along as we are the ones who send offers out or make applicants unsuccessful (and also we wouldn’t use the above wording – he said that, word for word).

    2. SophieChotek*

      So the applicants have a FB group and are talking about who got accepted and who has not yet heard?

      1. Caledonia*

        Yup! They sure do. They join the group and then post to it (who knows what but obviously so and so goes “OMG I got an offer today!!!” and then others are like “Why haven’t I heard anything?” :( and so it goes….

    3. AnonAcademic*

      When I was applying there were message boards where people posted that type of information. It was of mixed usefulness. Grad admission are going to be stressful whether you are waiting with no feedback or waiting with incorrect feedback so I wouldn’t really worry about this. The accepted candidates will find out when they find out, yes? It’s not likely to affect their actual enrollment decisions, in fact maybe they’ll be extra overjoyed to find out they were wrong about their prospects. And they will learn a good lesson about the inherent randomness of applying for things in academia (see also: publishing, grant submission, tenure review, etc.). I think it’s common for less seasoned applicants for school or jobs to be overly invested and superstitious about the process, I know I was.

  140. Leaf on the Wind*

    A month ago, a client sent a brief letter to my supervisor at Job A praising me for the way I successfully assisted them with a tech issue. I’m considering applying to a promotion at Job B that deals pretty heavily in technology (but isn’t IT or anything like that). The help I provided is something I provide pretty regularly and successfully with people who are typically really pleased with how I handle things and impressed with my overall tech skills. Obviously, I can state in the cover letter that this is a thing I’m good at, but I think this proof would really help me stand out because it’s pretty easy to say you’re a proficient computer user, for example, but it’s something else to have clients reach out on their own to tell your supervisor how great you really are.

    So, would it be weird to include a scan of the letter in application materials?

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Yeah, it’d be pretty weird. There’s a middle ground. “Helping clients through technical challenges is a particular strength of mine; in fact, my current role, a client proactively sent a letter to my supervisor praising my assistance troubleshooting their tea apparatus.”

  141. Obvi Anon*

    When can you approach someone at your current employer to refer you to a job at their former employer?

    I’d like to change jobs to dramatically reduce my commute. A leader from a different department (lets call him Max) that knows and respects my work and often speaks highly of me used to work for my ideal employer. He left that employer to work at our current employer. I know that Max is well connected within that organization, and would likely be able to connect me to people who might hire me.
    Since my boss doesn’t know I’m job searching (and it would dissolve our department if I left), I don’t know if I can reach out to Max to ask to connect me to people at his old employer with the hopes of working there.

    Thoughts? Has anyone ever successfully done this? Is there any chance Max doesn’t spill the beans?

  142. Moving On*

    Hi!
    I am a copywriter – I’ve been working for an in-house marketing team for about a year and a half now and have decided to start going on the search again. I’m leaving 50% because the expectations at this organization are extremely unrealistic and I’m not willing to sacrifice the ‘life’ part of work/life balance any longer, and 50% because my immediate and next-level supervisors are poor leaders.

    My question is: when I start interviewing again, how do I answer the question about why I’m leaving after just a year and a half?

    If I’m interviewing at an advertising agency, I think that it’s easy enough to say that I explored opportunities with in-house marketing teams, but missed the agency experience and wanted to return to it.

    If I’m interviewing with another in-house marketing team however, I’m unsure of what I could say. Any suggestions?

    2. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      Maybe this depends on geography but I’m British and I don’t think 1.5 years is too short.

  143. Cath in Canada*

    I had a weird/amusing experience at a work lunch this week. My boss and I were meeting with our respective counterparts from a collaborating centre, and we all ordered various types of burger. The two senior guys (one of them is director level) started eating while I was fussing around with my tea, and I looked up to realise they were both eating their burgers with a knife and fork! I looked up at my counterpart, who shrugged and followed suit. I didn’t want to be the uncouth person at the table, so I ate my burger with a knife and fork too, feeling completely ridiculous.

    1. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      My boss is very proper and we’ve gone out to lunch as an office on more than one occasion. We both order grilled cheese and tomato soup. I dove in, eating with my hands and dipping my sandwich aggressively into the soup, while she cut hers up with a knife and ate with a fork. I sure felt like a neanderthal that day.

    2. vpc*

      I had a work lunch recently at a restaurant that serves a type of cuisine that is typically eaten with hands, not fork, although forks are available on request. It’s a favorite restaurant of mine and I made an offhand comment at the beginning, something like ‘oh, this will be odd, I’ve never actually used a fork to eat with here before’ and everyone else said ‘oh, that’s all right, go ahead and eat with your hands if you want’. So I did, even though they all used forks.

      It was weird/amusing, but it worked out!

  144. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    I just want to sing from the rooftops that I love my new job! I was feeling a bit apprehensive about going back to a call center environment after I escaped the last one, but the atmosphere is way different and it’s like night and day. I’ve had some really fun client calls — spending almost half an hour with someone who just called in to crack nonstop jokes in my direction was a highlight yesterday.

  145. July*

    My university’s career center is really pushing a portfolio program. I think this is nuts. Am I missing something? I am not in education, graphic design, or any other field where employers request a portfolio, and I can’t really see that anyone wants to read a research paper as part of anything but a PhD application.

  146. Eric*

    I want to complain/get advice about the management of the building I work in.

    At my last job, my employer owned the entire building I worked in. So alarm drills and maintenance were done on a regular schedule that got posted by the entrances and emailed to everyone who worked in my office.

    My new company rents a couple of floors in a large office building. New building management doesn’t announce fire / evac drills or maintenance. No signs posted up in the lobby or elevators, nothing. They’re completely unannounced.

    This is a big problem for us, because I and a lot of the other people I work with are on client calls or interviews every day. So it looks really unprofessional when we have to drop off a conference call because building management is running a surprise fire drill. Or maintenance HAS to set up a ladder right by your desk RIGHT NOW.

    This company has been around for a whole so I can’t be the first person to bring this up. But it is annoying, and it makes us look bad to clients and candidates. How can I bring this up?

    1. Winger*

      I am in a similar situation. I have worked in numerous jobs where my employer basically owned the building, and now I work in an office on the 10th floor of a random 20 floor building and there is a whole litany of things I could complain about regarding the management.

      Do you have an office manager, or someone on staff who is in charge of dealing with building management? I would talk to her, or failing that, have a conversation about it with your direct supervisor and see what she says.

      1. Eric*

        Yeah! Both are good choices. I know people don’t like it, but I don’t know what they’ve said to decision makers about it. I have to imagine that my company should have some say in this with how many floors we’re renting in this building…

    2. Observer*

      Have those conversations, but realize that you may not have success.

      Develop a script for what you say – short- when this happens. Something like “I’m sorry, we’re having an unscheduled fire drill and we’re required to leave the building.”

      Also, how sophisticated is your phone system? Some systems can be a set up to allow you to transfer your call to a second device (such as your cell phone) with a few clicks. If you have that capacity, I’d link my cell phone and transfer the call so I can keep going as I walk ot the door.

  147. Spacecadet51*

    I work in a department with another assistant who’s behavior is unprofessional and she constantly attempts to sabotage my work. She’s been here since the 90’s and I’ve been here for almost five years. She has issues with many of the staff members and management who aren’t very fond of her. Does limited work, bad attitude, lying and unprofessional. For the life of me, not sure why she’s still employed. I don’t deal with her unless needed because she’s lied on me, doesn’t back me up when needed (I back her up), she conveniently leaves me out of the loop on work involving me. Anything she can do to make me look bad, she’ll do it.

    I’ve gone to my manager who told me there was nothing she could do for me. Yes the manager who’s over all of the administrative staff. Gone to ethics and human resources who’ve also done nothing. They suggested when she does something to confront her, which I am sure won’t play out in my favor. I’ve tried finding another job (internally/externally) and haven’t had any luck yet. It’s frustrating coming to work, having to deal with this type of behavior for no justifiable reason. For the most part, I just ignore here, but every now and then I confront her. I’ve been documenting every time something happens.

    1. Jane Reacher*

      Continue to document. Since management is apparently okay with her behavior, the only thing you can do is continue to look for a new job and leave as soon as possible. I’ve found that people like this don’t get better, they get worse.

      1. Morgan*

        Thank you for replying. When I find out about things, it comes after an entire conversation has been had and someone realizes she didn’t include me. In having a general conversation with a staff member, found that she lied to something pertaining to me. As you stated, I document every time by forwarding incriminating emails and such to my personal email. While I do well with the other staff, I am looking forward to leaving this department.

  148. Rainforest Queen*

    Advice on how to redirect clients requests to the right person without coming across as unwilling to help?

    Long story short – I am the sole processor of pink teapot orders. We had an employee start about 7 months who is the sole processor of purple teapot orders. Both pink and purple teapot orders are processed in the same system, but are for different types of teapots (thus, I have been trained specifically on pink teapot item knowledge, while he has been trained specifically on purple teapot item knowledge).

    This new-ish employee received quite in-depth training on how to handle his role as a purple teapot order processor (by the former purple teapot order processor himself, who just changed positions within our company). However, by nature, he doesn’t have the sharpest computer skills, and still struggles mildly with his job, and processing orders in our system (particularly the speed in which he completes orders). I have been quite successful in my role, and am generally quick and effective in processing pink teapot orders for our clients.

    However, since this purple teapot order processor started, clients have begun to send ME numerous purple teapot order requests. While I know HOW to process these orders, I have limited knowledge on purple teapot products, and it usually takes some research on my part on the purple products before I am able to take care of their request. At first, I was forwarding these requests to the purple teapot processor (and CC’ing the client) so that they would know to contact him going forward. However, they continue to send purple teapot requests to me, claiming the purple teapot processor himself is too slow in getting their requests taken care of. He usually takes a day or two to complete orders, while I usually complete orders in less than an hour. While I want to help the customer out, I am busy with my own pink teapot requests, and do not want to set the expectation that I am always available to take their purple teapot requests because I am generally quicker in taking care of their requests. Any advice?

    1. Taylor Swift*

      Do you have a shared supervisor? I might bring it up to that person first and ask how they’d like you to handle the purple teapot orders you’re receiving.

      1. Rainforest Queen*

        We do. I’ve addressed it with her, and she’s made it clear that these requests should be redirected to purple teapot order processor himself. However, clients continue to send requests directly to me.

        Maybe to some fault of my own, I continue to assist them with their requests, because they’ve made it clear that purple processor is too slow. So, my first instinct is to help them myself to keep them happy.

        2. animaniactoo*

          And if what really needs to happen is some intervention/adjustment on purple teapot processor’s part, you are blocking that from happening by making the problem “disappear”. So you also need to stop from that standpoint.

        3. ZVA*

          I think you need to worry more about what will keep your boss happy at this point! If she’s made it clear that you should redirect the requests, she won’t like that you’re continuing to fulfill them. I’m in a client-facing role, so I completely understand the impulse, but I think you have to focus more on what your boss wants than what these clients want in this case.

        4. Observer*

          Don’t do that. Instead, tell them that you would like to help them but you need to direct them to Purple Teapot Person. CC you manager on this so she can follow up as appropriate. Let y0ur manager know you are doing this, and why. As in “You said that Purple Teapot orders need to go to Fergus, but people are still emailing me. I’m going to start responding that they need to email Fergus, but I’m going to CC you, so you know what’s happening and can follow up as necessary.”

    2. animaniactoo*

      Stop fulfilling purple teapot requests unless it is a drop-dead emergency, with your manager’s buy-in.

      Seriously – you need to be able to say “I’m sorry, I don’t have the time to work on this as I have a full workload right now. Please work with (purple teapot processor) or speak to (your manager) if this is an urgent priority for you.”

      They’re coming to you because they get it faster… if they stop getting it faster, they’ll stop coming to you. It’s okay to come across as “unwilling” to help if you’re actually politely defending the boundaries of what you are supposed to be doing.

    3. Bad Day*

      Tell them that you cannot process purple teapot requests, with no further explanation of why. It doesn’t matter that you technically know how, it is someone else’s job to do it and you cannot handle doing both jobs on a long term basis. Every time they send you a purple teapot request :”I’m sorry but I do not process purple teapot requests. I will forward it to the purple teapot request processor.” If they never get a different response, eventually they will stop trying.

      1. Spoonie*

        Reply to the email with a simple: “The purple teapot requests are handled by Bob, who is copied on this email. If you need assistance with pink teapots, I’ll be happy to assist you.” Sort of kills two birds with one stone.

    4. Temperance*

      I think you should keep forwarding to him, but you really need to talk to your manager or his manager about this. If he’s not getting the job done, that’s very relevant.

  149. Amber T*

    Glorious acts of unprofessionalism that you should you ashamed of but… well, aren’t?

    I’ll start. We were hosting this big, all day, crazy meeting that included a catered breakfast AND a catered lunch (usually it’s one or the other). I as an admin at the time and was tasked with helping set up. The night before, I’m rolling up silverware inside of napkins, and I realize we don’t have enough “professional” silverware to cover both breakfast and lunch. I ask the admin in charge what to do, and she says to take the plain silverware from the back and use that for lunch. So I clean out our lunch room of regular silverware (yes, we do have a difference, and yes, it was noticed). In an effort to not confuse my colleagues the next day, I prep a basket of plastic forks and put it right on top of the lunch counter for everyone to see (we have a drawer of the plastic forks which is located right under the regular silverware drawer, but god forbid someone looks).

    Given that this was a few years ago, I don’t remember the “crisis,’ but there was one right before the lunch portion of the meeting started, which sent me flying to our cafeteria (we were short on silverware? Someone wanted a paper plate? Who knows.). Now, I have a colleague who loves to complain. I’ve worked with her for four years now and I have not heard praise about ANYTHING ever leave her mouth (her weekend was horrible, the restaurant she tried was horrible, her son’s new girlfriend is horrible). If she’s not complaining, she’s just not talking, so I’ve learned to take anything she says with a grain of salt. Anyway, she blocks the doorway into the lunchroom (me, noobie, panicking because CRISIS), and she asks me where the silverware “disappeared off to.” Stopping, trying to figure out how I can into the room without physically moving her (CRISIS!!!), I just say that I put out some plastic forks for everyone on the counter. “How do you expect me to eat my lunch??” She has this sneer on my face because I know she can tell I’m panicked, and she’s being an ass, and ugh it was tempting to shove past her. So I just say, perfectly calm (as much as I could manage) with a big smile on my face (that I’m 100% sure looked like a creepy serial killer) “With your fingers.” Her jaw drops, her coworker bursts out laughing, and I manage to squeeze by to solve the CRISIS.

    I felt super guilty about that afterwards and actually admitted to my supervisor what I said. She, too, burst out laughing, and told me not to worry about it.

    1. Llama*

      I was working phone customer service for a retailer. I was in my 2 week notice period, it was right after Christmas so we were all exhausted from the season. Customer calls in with a long complicated question about installing radio equipment wanting me to recommend parts and walk him through installing. We had no training on our products and this wasn’t something I could answer on the fly so I asked the customer if I could have a phone number or email address to get back to him with some answers once I did more research (aka call the supplier and desperately beg one of their reps who did know the product to explain it to me).

      Customer told me that he needed an answer immediately and “didn’t I care about making a sale?”

      My completely unfiltered response, “No, not really.”

  150. Sparkly Librarian*

    So I had the ambivalent interview. It went all right — not as great as when I got hired into this system, but I only recall saying one or two dumb things. I knew all of the panelists (we work together already), and I was way more comfortable than I normally am at interviews. Maybe that’s because it was lower stakes than usual? Maybe I’m just more confident in my skills after a couple years on the job. Or maybe it’s because I know my boss (leading the interview) already likes my work and is a great boss.

    What makes interviews easier for you (as a candidate)?

    1. Squeeble*

      I always try to remind myself that probably the worst that can happen is I just don’t get the job. That takes the pressure off and gives me room to treat the interview like a real conversation.

  151. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

    How sick do you have to be to stay home? I know the consensus generally is “if you’re sick, stay home”, but I had an issue with that this past week. Last Friday I woke up with a cold, but had a very important meeting at another location that I couldn’t cancel. I worked throughout the day with little issue. I was sick all weekend and mentioned to my SO that if I didn’t feel better the next morning I’d call in sick. Well, I woke up feeling just as bad, but remembered my boss had directly asked that I assist with a new employee’s onboarding and train her because she would be out of the office that morning. Apparently my coworker was told that she needed to support new hire because she would be out. Coworker called off and my boss came in very sick. I’ve continued to work through the week with ups and downs, so I’m wondering when you stop worrying about how your office will function and simply take the day?

    1. Amber T*

      Ugh this is my problem. I suffer from migraines (thankfully not that often), but those days I know I can’t function at work, let alone get out of bed, so I have no problem emailing my boss and calling out sick. But the rest of the time I really don’t know the line. Last time I realize I *should* have called out sick, I had just returned after having 2 weeks off from surgery, had been back for a week, and caught a bad cold. It was a Monday, and I couldn’t last longer than 5 minutes without needing to blow my nose, sneeze, or wipe my eyes. Everyone was side eyeing me, and I should have stayed home, but I had been out for two whole weeks and was playing catch up! Another time, I had a bad cough and was wheezing. At that point I sat outside our HR director’s office (I had a cube), and after a few hours later she came out and told me to get to the doctor.

      Guidelines that I know (even if I need to get better at following them):
      – Are you contagious / can and will you pass on whatever you have to a coworker
      – Would staying home and having a rest day help you recover quicker / will you still be super worse off if you go into work and not take time to heal
      – How much work can you reasonably expect to get done if you go to work

      1. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

        I’m glad to know i’m not alone in this! I suffer from migraines as well and probably should call off when they get too bad, but instead I sit in my office with my lights off and everyone asks what’s going on when they come in. I wouldn’t have such a problem with it, but we’re a very small office and I can no longer work from home due to being restructured to salaried hourly or whatever it’s called.

      2. vpc*

        Our number one rule growing up was:
        If you’re barfing, you don’t go to school. period. No matter what’s causing it.

        I think that’s still a good rule of thumb!

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      If I’m feeling truly terrible, I take sick time no matter what.

      But if I’m just a bit under the weather and there’s something to do (presentation, workshop, etc.) that *only I* can do, I’ll go to work.

    3. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I’m a teacher, so if I’m alive, I’m at school. Sub coverage is not guaranteed for my position (I’m a specialist, not a regular classroom teacher), so it’s super inconvenient for my whole team if I’m out unexpectedly.

  152. I Forgot the Name I Used Last Time*

    I posted a couple weeks ago about my new job and how I was doing all this task work that I’m awful at that wasn’t really the job (or the level of the job) I was hired to do.

    Well… I’m still awful at it. It’s been a month now. Things that my boss says should take a couple hours takes me a whole day. It got to the point where he seemed pretty angry and I was about 90% sure I was going to get fired.

    Now though, I think he realized I’m awful at it, and now I’m finally working on the things I’m good at. I’m still not totally convinced I won’t be fired (if the other stuff is still a main part of this role). But, at least now I’m having a good time and I can prove my value.

  153. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

    So I’m an environmental consultant by trade, but my hobby and great love is cooking. In particular, I’m passionate about Mexican cuisine and grilling, and….well, not to be insufferably conceited, but I’m good at it. I’d put my tacos al pastor up against anybody’s, and I’ve got some fairly unique recipes that people won’t have had elsewhere.

    I always enjoy putting on dinner parties and cookouts and so on, but I’ve been contemplating putting on a supper club or pop-up dinner at my home. Basically, it’s kind of like a one-night restaurant; folks make a reservation, show up at my back patio, and I serve them a prix fixe meal for $25 or whatever a head. I’d probably do a Mexican theme, with fancy tacos and margaritas.

    Anybody got any experience with this? Thoughts? Tips? Am I nuts?

    1. Emi.*

      That sounds really awesome, but I worry you’d run into some sort of horrible licensing/inspection/bureaucracy nightmare with that health inspector from Bob’s Burgers or something.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Yeah, it’d be unlicensed. These sorts of unregulated “popup dinners” happen all over the place, I’ve been to four or five and never had a bad experience….but yes, it’s technically against health code.

        Which is why I’d call it Guerilla Taco. Tell me that’s not a killer name.

        2. AnonAcademic*

          I went to one that was shut down by the health department. Their mistake IMO was they advertised the event publicly and someone complained (it was a non-traditional venue and some rando objected to them hosting a “party”). I think to do it right you really need it to be word of mouth only which is a bit limiting. If it grows to the point where you can rent a prep kitchen and do permitted catering great, but do not for example send a public facebook invite to the event or seek press coverage until you are fully permitted/inspected/etc. unless you’re ok with the risk of it getting shut down.

    2. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      This sounds like a cool idea. The first thing that popped into my head would be questions about at what point you would need to be concerned with your states food service laws/permits etc. Does charging people $ automatically put you into the food service industry vs. just having friends over for a free dinner? Am I overthinking this?

      I’m not sure how this works honestly. I mean it’s not like organizations get permits to run a random bake sale (or do they?) but at some point if you are charging money for food that you made in your own kitchen I think you will run into health laws/permits. The only sideline experience I have with this is a friend (lived in California where they have strict laws) wanted to have her own home baking business to sell cakes and cookies but she had to have her kitchen inspected, submit her recipes to be approved (for a cost) etc. etc. Ultimately it wasn’t worth it to her.

      2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        I’d be basically flipping all those issues the bird and doing it on the DL. It’s done, but it’s….in a legal gray zone, depending on how it’s phrased.

  154. Teapot admin*

    Sorry about the book I’m writing, but I would really appreciate advice on a scary situation at work. About 3 weeks ago, I blew the whistle (internally) on my unofficial supervisor (Kim) mishandling personal information. What she was and still is doing is not just bad practice, but actually against federal regulations for that information. I pointed this out to her first, but she dismissed me. I would have just minded my own business, but she had instructed me to do something that I thought was unethical (I found out later that it wasn’t inherently a problem on its own, because the information is supposed to be secured). If I had just not done that part of what she told me to do, I’m pretty sure there would have been major blowback from her, based on 3 years of working with her. So I emailed the senior manager (Fergus) of my department about it. He told me that he would see that it was corrected immediately, but a week later, nothing had happened and I knew Kim would be checking on my work any time, so I called the company’s ethics hotline and told them about the situation.

    Several hours later on the same day, my official supervisor (Wakeen) and Fergus called me into a meeting to crack down on my hours and take away all of my responsiblities related to the issue. For more background, I have serious chronic health problems that I need frequent doctor’s appointments to manage, but I didn’t have FMLA because the department has always been very flexible about hours, including allowing me to work late to make up the hours lost at the appointments. Kim had also been allowing me to leave 2 hours early once a week to go to a night class for my grad program, but when this incident happened, she claimed that I had never told her anything about any doctor’s appointments since I’ve been here and she didn’t even know that I was in school. I don’t have anything to prove otherwise now because it was all verbal permission (and the company culture has been so permissive that it might have seemed weird to insist on it being in writing or even have a more formal discussion about it). Fergus and Wakeen kept saying that I had been doing whatever I wanted with my hours without permission and kept asking how I could even think this was OK. They also blamed me for personal conflict with Kim, over this, and in the past over similar but less serious issues and continual discriminatory comments she makes about foreign-born coworkers (which I didn’t document, not wanting to escalate anything). Finally, at the end of the meeting they told me that while they would still allow me to leave early to get to class, I would no longer be allowed to make up any hours lost to that or doctor’s appointments. Since I don’t have any paid leave, this means that I will lose about $30 of pay every week that I don’t have an appointment and $100 each week that I do (every 2 or 3 weeks on average).

    At this point I realized this was going badly for me and my job might even be at risk, so I called HR and updated them on what had happened since I made the report. There are also other things that make me think that I’m at risk of being thrown overboard for rocking the boat, based on things that have happened to other people and what long-timers have told me (too much to get into here). Since then, I have just kept my head down, focused on my remaining responsibilities, and followed Fergus and Wakeen’s instructions on my hours to the letter, even though it has cost me significant pay. At this point, I don’t want anything more to do with the situation, and one positive thing that came out of this is that I am no longer reporting to Kim, or working with her at all.

    Fast forward 2 weeks: I mention a doctor’s appointment that I had later in the day that Wakeen previously approved by email the previous week. He said that I can’t be doing this and I am still just doing whatever I want with my hours, despite the meeting. I reminded him that he had approved this schedule deviation, but he ignored me. I brought this up with Fergus, and he said that we had talked about this in the meeting, but nothing seemed to have changed, and I’m not following instructions. He also told me not to email them about anything to do with my schedule, but just to come informally talk to them. I pointed out that they might not remember my schedule or even that they had approved it, but he dismissed it, saying that they wouldn’t forget, despite what had just happened. He repeatedly insisted that I not email them.

    So now I’m pretty nervous. I will have no evidence that any of my schedule deviations were approved if I don’t get it in writing. I am working on setting up FMLA and a reasonable accomodation but the process takes time and it isn’t in place yet. My schedule is the only possible pretext they could use to fire me (this is not an at-will state, and my performance reviews have always been very positive), and it looks like they’re setting the stage. They also told me that I am supposed to train everyone on the department’s night crew on one of my two main responsibilities, even though I need very minimal support from them, previously handled by one person (and given the culture of no cooperation the entire time I’ve worked here, it is very unusual that they have suddenly decided to support me on that project). So now I don’t know what to do- if they just want me to get back in line and stop rocking the boat, digging in and insisting on getting written permission for my doctor’s appointments against orders could make things worse and possibly make them change their minds about what to do with me, but if they are trying to get rid of me, I need to do everything I can to protect myself. I am looking for another job, but that could take a while. What do you guys advise?

    1. animaniactoo*

      “With respect, my previous schedule deviation was informal and I have now been charged with doing whatever I want, so I am not comfortable speaking to you informally about this. I will continue to request all deviations via e-mail to make sure that we are all clear on what was requested and when. Would you prefer that I cc HR on those e-mails or continue to just e-mail you directly?”

      1. Teapot admin*

        Do you think that could be considered insubordination or too provocative? I was nervous about emailing them anyway because I couldn’t think of a way to say it that wouldn’t imply some very heavy things, and I did actually tell Fergus and Wakeen the first sentence (in slightly different but innocuous wording), but they dismissed me, said that they wrote things down on their end and that wouldn’t happen, and insisted on no emails. I think you’re right, but I’m scared of escalating things further.

        1. animaniactoo*

          At this point, you don’t have a lot to lose. You fail to do this and they’re going to charge you with not asking correctly, etc. anyway. So doing this is the only stab you have at actually protecting yourself. This wording at least does not imply that you think they’re doing it on purpose, but rather that there’s miscommunication and you are not comfortable with an informal process on that basis.

        2. animaniactoo*

          OH! I just thought of one more thing. Alison has been very clear that you should use the word “retaliation” when talking to HR, because it’s a major trigger. So talk to HR again, and tell them that you feel like this issue with your schedule is retaliation for the whistleblowing.

    2. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      Do you think there would be push back if you were hard to get in touch and needed to clear a few weeks worth of appointments via email?

      1. Teapot admin*

        That doesn’t really apply to my job. I’m on site every day, and Fergus and Wakeen told me that if either of them were unavailable, to just clear things (verbally) with the other, or another manager if neither were available (very rare).

    3. Amber T*

      First of all, I’m sorry, this all sucks and everyone you mention seems to suck too. Wakeen and Fergus especially. The fact that Fergus is insisting you not email them makes zero sense. I’d continue to email them about various appointments, phrasing it as if it’s more of a reminder for you than them.

      I get your fear of rocking the boat, and maybe you want to chose not to do this, but maybe considering calling the ethics hotline again? This sounds like… not revenge, I can’t remember the professional word right now. But you raised a legit concern about a coworker/supervisor, and now you’re seemingly being punished for it. Would it make sense at all for you to follow up with the ethics hotline or HR?

      I really don’t know too much about FMLA and allowing you to go to doctors appointments – that sounds more legal than my area of expertise. But is your chronic health issue recognized by the ADA, and do you feel like you’re being discriminated against because of it? Key words that might make HR take this more seriously.

      Good luck, and sorry I couldn’t have been more help! <3

      1. Teapot admin*

        Thanks! :) I did suggest that the emails would be a reminder for me, as well as them, but they still dismissed and insisted on what they told me. It’s so weird, and I can’t think of any benign reason for it. It turned out that the ethics hotline goes straight to HR, and I did email them about this latest update (I have a meeting with them scheduled for Monday to discuss it). When I met with them a couple of weeks ago after my first update, they told me that the hours crackdown was just a coincidence (possible since the company has been going through budget cuts, but the timing is pretty suspicious). I did drop the key words, as clearly as I could without making it sound like a threat. I don’t know if my condition qualifies under the ADA, but HR seemed to think it did. I don’t think this is discimination though (but I do think it’s retaliation, especially since they also took away my responsibilities).

    4. H.C.*

      Well, instead of emailing as a request, how about emailing as a confirmation after your “informal talk”: “Hi Wakeen, this is to confirm that per our discussion, I can take [[time]] off on [[date]] for [[reason.]] If you have any additional questions about this request, feel free to let me know. – Teapot admin.”

      If Wakeen/Fergus pushes back on it, you need to emphasize how a lack of a written record had previously gotten you in hot water over time off disputes (if you can afford to be blunt – point out how even a written approval of time off wound up getting disputed, so you are understandably wary of informal verbal approvals for such future requests – thus the reason for emailing confirmations after the discussion.)

      I would also keep HR updated of these developments, in case it’s part of a pattern of retaliatory behaviors from Wakeen & Fergus.

      1. animaniactoo*

        It’s worth a shot, but my concern with this route is that they can then say “No, you misunderstood, I did not clear you for this”.

    5. AnonAcademic*

      Document the crap out of this, find a new job, hire a lawyer. Maybe do the latter second actually. It very much smells like retaliation to me, but proving that is a matter of getting pretty specific documentation which is why you might want to quietly talk to a lawyer while you still are employed there. It may be easier to argue for whistleblower retaliation protections than retaliation based on ADA (ADA related discrimination is apparently a harder thing to prove) but either way you need to CYA. If they can you over this nonsense you will at least have a shot at justice (or at least a settlement for your troubles).

  155. NW Mossy*

    I realized this week that it seems like I handle email really differently than basically anyone else I interact with at work, and I’ve been dying to ask y’all how you handle it. I’m an Inbox Zero (well, Inbox < 5, perhaps) type, but it seems like all my colleagues are the Inbox Tornado type. So what about you? Do you love an aesthetically slim inbox, or are you a free-wheeling lover of abundance?

    1. Amber T*

      I HATE having unread messages in my email (and notifications on my apps). Unless I’m in the middle of something that can’t be disturbed, I read the email right away. If it’s something I need to do, it either gets flagged or categorized, and if need be I move the whole conversation into a specific folder. The worst is if I’m on vacation or off sick for a few days and come back to a giant inbox. Ugh.

      2. SophieChotek*

        Same. I had a huge project before Christmas when tons of emails piled up — but I subscribe to lots of newsletters/trend reports and I figured 3-4 months later they were obsolete so I deleted them all.
        Ah…so nice.
        I try to keep mine under 20 unread a day…or play catch-up the next day.

      3. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Oh, hi, are you me?

        Stuff only stays in my inbox as long as I need it there to do whatever needs to be done. If I don’t have to do anything, it gets archived immediately.

    2. Nan*

      Inbox 0. I use my inbox as my to-do list. Once I’m done with whatever, I delete it or move it to the appropriate folder if I need to keep it. I let every thing come to my inbox, instead of setting up rules to direct it to an assigned box. Then I know I didn’t miss something.

      Having too many emails in my inbox makes me twitchy.

      1. ZVA*

        This is exactly what I do, but I’m in the minority in my workplace. I cannot stand a full inbox; I find it very stressful.

        Inbox = to-do list. When the task associated w/ an email is complete, I either delete it or (very rarely) move it to one of several folders (maybe I want to save all correspondence from a particular project in one place).

        I have a folder called “Internal waiting”; if I need one of my coworkers to do something (estimate a project, say) before I can delete an email, that’s where the email goes. I also have an “External waiting” folder; that’s for if I need someone outside my company (a vendor, say) to do something before I can delete an email. That way, if there’s no action I can take on it, the email doesn’t have to clutter up my inbox.

      2. Amber T*

        Whoops, I *never* delete an email (unless it’s spam and the like, which usually doesn’t get to my inbox anyway). I regularly have to check emails from up to a year ago (my boss came into my office just now, asking me to check what happened to something back in August/September, and the first place I checked was my email). I used to try to keep my inbox total very low and move all emails to specific folders, but now the vast majority of emails just sit in my inbox.

        IT gets mad, because we do have an email retention program (for legal purposes, but in theory we’re supposed to be able to hop in there and check emails from up to 7 years ago), but we never got any training (and I’m sorry to say, 90% of emails from IT unfairly go truly unread (meaning I click on it then click away just so it’s marked read)).

    3. H.C.*

      I try to keep unread emails below 100, but gave up on the Sisyphean task for trying to file/clear away every email ages ago.

    4. TheLazyB*

      Nearly everyone I work with has permanently nearly-full inboxes. I get nervous if I have less than 150mb free and start deleting.

      I try to keep my inbox empty but for the past 4-5 months it’s been out of control. I now have 42 emails in my inbox after trying to sort out and that still feels too many.

    5. Caledonia*

      I had under 10 unread ones when I left today but some unread ones in folders :( which probably makes around 20 in total. I have around 200 in my inbox which I should delete or put into folders but as crazy as it sounds, I just don’t have a spare hour right now to sit down and do it…maybe sometime next week. or this month. or over the summer.

    6. squids*

      I’m at 14 un-dealt-with messages right now and it’s stressing me out. Prefer to be able to see them at all at once, at least.

    7. katamia*

      Inbox Tornado-er here. I leave things unread until I’m ready to deal with them, and for non-urgent things/people, sometimes that takes awhile. And I have a ton of space left, so I don’t have the fear of my inbox filling up to motivate me to go through things and prune anything.

    8. Bonky*

      God – Inbox Zero. It’s a pathology. I literally can’t sleep at night if I know there’s anything in there that I haven’t dealt with – I wake up panicking. It’s because I get >100 mails a day, and if I allow things to build up at all I just can’t keep on top of the important stuff.

    9. Annie Moose*

      I use the new Inbox for Google, and I am definitely more on the Inbox Zero than Inbox Tornado side of things. (although it’s not strictly zero–like Nan, I use it as a to-do list so I usually have about a half-dozen things in there) Inbox really encourages that style, because it’s very easy to archive stuff out of your inbox, while not deleting anything (so you can easily find it later). You can even snooze emails for later, and they’ll disappear until they reach the scheduled time.

      My personal email is a bit more cluttered, because I don’t need to take care of things as promptly and I leave things in there as reminders, but that, too, I regularly sweep through and tidy up. It just makes it so much easier to find the things that are important!

    10. Drew*

      Home: Tornado and then some. I really need to purge.

      Work: I shoot for zero, usually hover between 10 and 30.

      Both: The Boomerang for Gmail extension is my favorite tool bar NONE. It lets you set messages to fly out of your inbox and fly back in a set time later, or you can choose “Tomorrow morning” or “tomorrow afternoon” if the precise time doesn’t matter. You can set your own rules (it didn’t have a rule for “exactly one day from now,” so I added it). You can tell it to return messages to your inbox if you don’t get a response by a certain time. And you can set messages for delayed sending, so my supervisor who gets antsy if I email him too early in the morning gets messages time-shifted by an hour or so. And that’s nowhere NEAR all its features. I pay for the “pro” version and it’s absolutely worth it; the only other thing I pay for that I think has that much value is Amazon Prime.

    11. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I’m also a fan of inbox near zero. I get antsy if it scrolls off my screen. I spent several hours yesterday cleaning up an uncharacteristic backlog of email from my second email (a shared email address for my program that my colleague rarely checks).

    12. Taylor Swift*

      I’m totally an Inbox Zero person! I very rarely delete emails with actual substance, though (office-wide notices and stuff I definitely delete). I put them in folders.

    13. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      Inbox zero for me. Everything gets filed into folders. Folders for past projects get moved into the archive instead of just sitting in my inbox. Emails with non-urgent actions (e.g. a research paper I plan to read at some point) are opened, flagged for follow-up and filed in my ‘things to read’ folder.

      My closest work peer has hundreds of unread emails. That would completely and utterly stress me out.

    14. Mrs. Fenris*

      I hate clutter in any form-physical or electronic. I read or delete everything. I’m actually a bit bad about deleting things I should have kept.

  156. Que?*

    I work on a five person team at a cultural institution. We just got a software upgrade for a process that is part of our daily operations. When I came to work, my team’s leader–before I could even say hello–told me how to sign on to the new system, showed me the manual, and then left.

    Really?

  157. LizB*

    Opinion poll time: is it okay for me to bring a dish towel to work to be able to dry my personal dishes?

    Backstory: my office has a communal kitchen with a limited amount of shared dishes. I’ve recently decided to bring in my own dishes (mug, bowl, plate, fork, spoon) to keep at my desk so I can be assured of always having what I need. I wash the dishes immediately after using them (there are supplies for this in the kitchen), but the only things available to dry dishes with are a) paper towels or b) leaving them to air dry in the dish drainer. I don’t want to do option (b) because that would defeat the purpose of having my own dishes if other people start using them, and I’m starting to feel guilty about how much paper I’m using on a weekly basis. Would it be weird of me to bring a basic dish towel in to use on my dishes? I would bring it home to wash and bring in a clean cloth every week, or every other week at the very least.

    1. animaniactoo*

      My opinion: It would be weird, but a weird that I would be willing to cheerfully defend as “my thing”.

      1. Amber T*

        Ditto – if someone in my office did this it would make me say “huh,” but I’d move on quickly. Odd, but not super-odd-what-are-you-doing-this-is-weird odd.

    2. Emi.*

      I don’t think it would be weird! It would be weird if you left your towel in the kitchen and didn’t let other people use it, but if you take it to and from the kitchen with your dishes, someone would have to be a serious busybody to get bent out of shape about it.

    4. engr*

      this isn’t weird at all. I think you could leave it in a drawer by the sink or bring it back and forth with you when you want to wash dishes. Kudos to you for reducing your paper usage!!

    5. LizB*

      Thanks for the responses, folks! Sounds like I’ll be grabbing some cheap IKEA dish towels this weekend. :) (They’ll also be more effective at drying dishes than the terrible paper towels we have, so that’s another bonus.)

      1. Gadfly*

        And if you had something like a little plastic basket or tote that you were keeping everything together in at your desk, it would just make sense for it to go back in the basket

        1. LizB*

          I do have a little plastic basket that the dishes live in, so that’s where the dish towel can live too!

    6. Aphrodite*

      I do not use the communal sink or any dishes or silverware nor do I use the refrigerator unless on rare occasions I cannot avoid it. They ick me out. I swear the sponge hasn’t been changed since Queen Elizabeth I was on the throne, and while they technically clean things I am utterly grossed out. (At home, I microwave the sponge for three minutes before each use and change it out once a month. I clean the counters and stove with both soap and vinegar, and so on. I’m also an avid user of disposable gloves. So, yes, the more lax attitudes at work are repulsive to me.) I have my own set of dishes and silverware and wash and dry them with paper towels. But I don’t think having a dish towel is bad either if that is what you prefer.

    7. Chaordic One*

      No, it’s not weird. I never brought a dish towel from home, but I did bring my own personal roll of paper towels that I kept in my desk. I also brought some special non-scratch wipes for my computer screen and even cleaning supplies (Windex, 409) to clean my desk with.

  158. Winger*

    I am in an increasingly irritating and untenable situation with a volunteer at work.

    I work at a big nonprofit in a skilled job that used to be done by two people, and I am overwhelmed to the point of having “which parts of my job would you prefer I do, and which can I abandon” conversations. My boss has said that they can’t hire another staff member, but he got wind of a new volunteer who has some experience KIND OF related to what I do, and the boss essentially foisted the guy on me. (The guy happens to be independently wealthy and has no job, so my boss thinks this is an effective way to woo him as a donor.)

    Now in addition to doing my job–which is overwhelming!–I have to figure out how to manage/assign projects to this volunteer. I gave him all the low hanging fruit and his work is not terrible, but I am out of things he could possibly do and I find myself with the responsibility of “asking around” our large org and trying to find him projects. Big surprise, there are none. He isn’t an envelope stuffer, and those are really the only office volunteers we need. He can’t have access to our database so he can’t support the data entry people, who are also overwhelmed with their own jobs. He’s nice but a bit awkward and he can’t deal with people, so he can’t be a volunteer tour guide or docent or special-event helper.

    I have gently pushed back against my boss but I need to have a really clear “this can no longer be my responsibility, period” conversation with him next week. Meanwhile the volunteer will be here in an hour and I have nothing for him to do. It is really, really remarkable what a drag on my productivity this has been.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Ug, that stinks. I’m thinking your boss did not think through how much time this would take off your plate, but hopefully he’ll be understanding once you lay it out next week. Good luck until then! In the meantime, can you train him in envelope stuffing? I’m sure even independently wealthy individuals can figure it out. ;)

  159. Annoyed Cinderella*

    I think my supervisor is using me. I can’t be sure if she really is using me or is just delegating work to the best of her ability. I am the person that has been in my position the longest in my region. I am in a support coordinator position that is really only “suppose” to do work helping healthcare clients in a direct way ie calling them, setting up appointments etc. Unfortunately, since I began my position I have done way above what I was required to do of my own free will. I would for instance, point out issues and create charts to show the trends and submit them to my old supervisor. It has had a snowball effect because over 2 years later I find myself doing all sorts of tasks from various departments and managing a lot of projects, spreadsheets, spearheading new workflows of which I need to create all the documents and train etc. Long story short I am the only person in my position that is expected to or has to do all of these extra account management type of activities. Others in my region (of whom I communicate outside of work and on work IM) just have to do the simple calling client type of duties and not all the operational duties. NOW my supervisor has notified me she has several of her account reporting duties that she will be handing off to me to do from now on which includes submitting reports on various days of the month. In addition to that she says in the future she wants me to travel to visit some of our contracted facilities.
    This is all getting out of hand because my title is a lower level position that’s really suppose to be customer service healthcare calling, the pay is already below market in my region and I have expressed interest in other positions (that were recommended to me by higher level staff) only for them to hire externally. I am starting to believe the reason I am not getting the other positions are because my supervisor wants me to stay under her so that I can help her with her workload. Every week there is something new or ongoing that she wishes me to help her with or come up with. It is really difficult to balance all the other requests AND the customer service for healthcare clients side (which is what the actual position is). Every time I bring it up her response is well I do XYZ out of my scope. But in the back of my mind I’m thinking you do XYZ out of your scope for 6 figures and I’m barely surviving. To put it into perspective it would be equivalent to a Janitor being hired at a college and just because he knows Calculus, he keeps getting called in to substitute teach and it is then made a part of his Janitor duties and when he points out he is just a Janitor he is told “oh well you know Calculus so you need to teach” without the professor pay.

      1. Annoyed Cinderella*

        Last year everyone in my position got a title change/raise. It translated to about 20 extra bucks per pay period. It has been made clear that raises are out of the question as our HR is based in a different location and isn’t even knowledgeable of the actual work we do vs. what the title states we do. For instance last year another person in my position filed a complaint on her supervisor (who I have worked with previously and was THE WORST. She had never been a manager before and it showed. HR reached out to me and others in my position to discuss leadership and what we thought of the role. When I explained to HR (in a non-complaining way) my day to day duties, she was shocked and stated it sounded like a personal assistant and had nothing to do with the actual job description. They ordered all management to attend some online training but nothing else was done.

  160. Ungennant hier*

    I know you all told me to post in the open thread and so I am sorry I’m late. I commented on th abusive fiancé letter saying that my spouse has tried recently to limit where I go at night, after hate incidents post-election, and that I have a serious problem with math, so I don’t control the (joint, because we’re close to broke), finances and only make small purchases. We also have to ration gas, so I always discuss going to see friends or any unnecessary trips.

    FWIW, I really don’t think they mean to control or hurt me. I know a lot of people had different opinions about that. All the same, people’s comments made me want to exercise more agency.

    I already get that with work stuff and classes, but I do want to go to some events at night and better understand finances. So I talked to my spouse and said I had trouble understanding them, and can we please remake the financial spreadsheet. We’ll try a version with more spacing and bigger font, and they suggested I use a browser extension that lets you experiment with different color filters.

    I’d say we spend about the same amount of discretionary money, though they spend larger amounts less often than I do, so it can go over $10. They also have, once or twice, spent more on things for both of us (a piece of furniture, on sale, I think it was), without asking- they said they were at X store and it was a good deal. These purchases don’t take away from being able to pay bills, but can put a dent in whatever other money there is.

    I also said I wanted to go out at night despite safety concerns; specifically to a weekly thing for my minority community. My spouse has felt really scared after I was targeted, but eventually we agreed I can go if I want, but I have to plan to go with or meet someone there, and walk out with someone as well (my car was damaged in post-election incidents).

    I think the main thing to work on now, would just be understanding math and money better. I would feel less controlled and my spouse would be less stressed.

    1. designbot*

      I would just encourage you to focus on the impacts of things as much or more than motivations. If he doesn’t mean to be controlling, yet you find yourself controlled, that’s still a problem. And abusers don’t just admit that they’re doing things to control you–they find tons of reasons why the way they want to do things is supposedly best for both of you. His reasons may all make sense individually, but if they add up to a situation that’s uncomfortable for you then that’s not all right.

    2. animaniactoo*

      “I understand that you are scared, but this is a risk I am willing to take”. You need to be able to defend your own right to make a choice that primarily affects you, despite the fact that it may also secondarily affect them. You can acknowledge and validate their concerns, while at the same time stating your choice. Then discuss what you are *willing* to do to mitigate their concerns. If what they want towards that is too much, then it’s still not okay. Your goal is that you will give their concerns due consideration – and then make up your own mind based on your own priorities (which do include trying to help them feel better about the risks you’re taking).

    3. LizB*

      There’s a non-work-related open thread here on the weekends – I encourage you to post there tomorrow to get more advice from folks! It sounds like you’ve already started thinking about a gameplan, but the weekend thread would be a great way to get recommendations of resources.

  161. Red Reader*

    I went onsite this morning to lead a shadow for someone who is considering transferring to one of our coding teams from elsewhere in the department, and after I finished with that, ended up spending about two hours in face time with our director. (Two rungs above me on the org chart.)

    Discovered that she and my direct manager have been discussing ways they can get me some more involvement in other areas of our department as well, to facilitate my opportunities for long-term positioning within the department :) (They both know that in the long-term I want to keep moving up the org chart and are supportive of same.) Apparently there’s several projects coming down the pike that I may end up having a role in. Stoked!

  162. Bad With Recruiters*

    I’m working with a recruiter who won’t take no for an answer.

    I’ve told him a couple of times what I’m looking for, in very clear terms. No startups, in my state. Hard nos on both.

    But he forwards me a ton of jobs that don’t fit that — which is fine, he works with a lot of people, and it doesn’t bother me. I’m fine with sending back a “Hey, I don’t think that’ll work, I’m not really interested in working at a startup” in reply.

    The problem is that he argues this with me. I’m trying to be polite with these emails and even if I say “I’m really, absolutely not interested because this company would not be a good fit for me” he’ll usually send something back about how they’re not really a startup because they have funding (I don’t want to work at a startup because I have some pretty bad issues with anxiety and panic disorders, and I’d prefer a more stable work environment — not his business), I’m being too picky, or “they have an absolutely fantastic culture, I can set up a call for tomorrow.”

    I’m trying my best to be polite because it’s good for my reputation, but this guy not listening to me is annoying. How should I handle it? Should I just stop replying to his emails?

    1. designbot*

      I’d probably only respond to the emails that did interest me, and avoid the arguments over the ones that didn’t.

    3. SophieChotek*

      Honestly, at this point I would either just program my email to block his emails or just delete his emails unread. You’ve tried being polite and saying you are not interested, so it doesn’t seem worth your time to further engage. (It seems like it is recruiters like this that give all recruiters a bad name.)

      1. Bad With Recruiters*

        Most of them are pretty polite! I think this guy just isn’t very good. He started by cold calling me (I let it go to voicemail but I recognized the number).

        And not to toot my own horn, but I’m pretty good at my specialization in programming. I’ve done a couple of talks at conferences and local user groups. I think he’s just desperate to get a commission off of me, because my resume and skill set are very strong. I can’t blame him for that, but I can blame him for being obnoxious. :)

        1. Amber T*

          That’s it right there – you’re beneficial for him, so here are ALL THE WAYS HE CAN BE BENEFICIAL FOR YOU.

    4. animaniactoo*

      “There seems to be some miscommunication here. I have been very specific about what kinds of jobs I am looking to avoid. If I pass on a job, it is because it comes too close to what I am looking to avoid, regardless of why it does not fit your characterization of that kind of job. When you argue with me about it, I feel like you are disregarding what I am looking for and my own ability to figure out what will work for me. Going forward, please limit your leads to companies that have been established for more than X years, and are of X size.”

      Then see how he replies – if he tries to argue with you again, “It seems like this will not work. Thank you for your efforts, but please remove me from your list.” If he shapes up, okay. If he doesn’t shape up, give it a couple of weeks and then “Hi, this is not working well, thanks for your efforts, but please remove me from your list”.

      And once you ask to be removed from his list, don’t answer another e-mail from him.

      1. Amber T*

        I tried this tactic with a firm and it largely went ignored. Over the past year, three different recruiters from the same group have sent me requests on LinkedIn (not accepted, but fine), called me multiple times AT WORK (I have it posted on LinkedIn that I work for Teapots, Inc., and the main line for Teapots Inc. is listed on our website, so it’s not a stretch but it’s still obnoxious as hell), and have sent me emails to my personal email address (this is what bugs me the most because I don’t have it publicly posted anywhere – I’m guessing I had it on an old resume that’s still on Monster or something). The first time the first two called and emailed and messaged, I sent one reply back saying “thank you for thinking of me, but I’m happy with my employment, I’ll reach out to you if anything changes.” A week later, I get another phone call and email and message saying “have you considered the position I sent you? I’d love to hear from you!” I’m just ignoring the third now. Maybe another 10 people from their recruiting firm have viewed my LinkedIn profile too. (No, I’m not in a specialized field or am unique at all, not sure why this company is so obsessed)

        1. animaniactoo*

          That’s why I said ignore any more e-mails after that. You can’t force them to give up. You can stop putting in your side of the interaction.

          I had a recruiter call me at work once and I told them bluntly that it was extremely inappropriate and I could not talk to them and hung up.

          1. Bad With Recruiters*

            Get anything else from them afterwards? I’ve found that has 50/50 success rate. Other half of the time they’ll try to restart communication via another medium, like sending you an email saying “hey, I was trying to get you at lunch — sorry I was wrong :)” like it’s NOT dumb and rude to cold call someone’s office number.

    5. ArtK*

      “While I appreciate your efforts, it doesn’t seem as if we’re a good match for the recruiting process. You needn’t send me any more links. All the best.” Then ignore anything he sends. A recruiter who doesn’t listen is a waste of your time. It’s a waste of his time, too, but you aren’t obligated to fix his business issues.

      Since I’m a bit blunt and don’t really care about being nice, I’d say something more like “Stop wasting my time and yours. Trying to force fit a candidate to a position is ridiculous. With the next person, try finding jobs that suit them. Please take me off of your communications list.”

    6. Temperance*

      Can you work with someone else at his office? Frankly, he sounds like an ass and bad at his job. Recruiters work for themselves, not you – so his interest in getting you a job is just because he’ll get a commission when he does. Some bad recruiters just keep acting pushy and sales-y, giving you the hard sell.

    7. CAA*

      Ooh, I’m pretty sure I’ve been on the hiring manager’s side with that same guy.
      Him: “Hey, I’ve found 6 resumes for you. Are you available from 2 to 5 tomorrow? I’ll go ahead and setup those calls for a half-hour each and send you calendar invites.”
      Me: “What? I’ve told you there’s no way I can even talk to your candidates until the CEO has approved your fee agreement, and even if that happened, you wouldn’t be setting up interviews before I’ve even seen the resumes!”

      Actually, the sad thing is that I’ve had this conversation with a couple of recruiters. I flat out told HR at my current company that I won’t do business with Jobspring or Workbridge because I hate this hard sell technique they use. Fortunately our HR team is two awesome people who just asked which recruiters I do like to work with.

      1. Bad With Recruiters*

        I think Jobspring and Workbridge are owned by the same parent company. I also think that company owns a few other recruiting firms.

        I think that because the agency I was having this problem with seems just like those two:

        * Cold calling during work hours, sometimes to your office number (to your office number sometimes)
        * Insisting on getting you in the office “because we take this very seriously and need to get to know our candidates” (though they backed down on this after I said no, I am very busy and my PTO is limited, but I am willing to meet with you face to face sometime on interview day)
        * Arguing with you over jobs you’re either not skilled for, or aren’t interested in

        Good news: An acquaintance of mine who consults offered to put me in touch with some companies he’s worked with before. Hooray for networking!

  163. Jade*

    I’ve seen a few co-workers get birthday cards with gift cards in them from a supervisor. I was asked to sign one today for a co-worker that had a $20 gift card in it.

    I didn’t get a gift for my birthday. I didn’t even get a card. I don’t need or want a card, but it’d be nice to be valued equally with my coworkers. Am I right to feel a little slighted? How do I handle this the next time I see someone get a gift?

    2. twig*

      I once “lost” a birthday card that came my way for signature after my birthday had been ignored at work.

      I’m slightly ashamed of my pettiness.

  164. Eager Job Applicant*

    I had a great phone interview with the HR recruiter for my dream job on Wednesday for an internal transfer at my current organization. The position is two steps above my paygrade but very in line with my current range of responsibilities, which is part of why I’m so excited about it. I realized after the interview that i submitted the application just before i completely revamped my resume to be a million times better (after working with a Job Coach through my part-time graduate program). I think the phone interview went pretty well, and I am super well-qualified for the position. I also worked with the same HR Recruiter for my previous two internal promotions so she knows me and knows that i’m a strong performer. Now I can’t stop thinking about how i might not get the in-person interview because of my less then stellar former resume formatting. Would it be inappropriate to email the actual hiring manager with the updated version explaining the situation? Would it make more sense to send it to the HR Recruiter who i interviewed with? I’m really excited about this potential opportunity, and i want to make it abundantly clear that i’m really interested, but i don’t want to seem over eager or excessive by contacting the hiring manager when he may not have even heard feedback from the HR Recruiter yet. Any thoughts?

    1. LawCat*

      Don’t circumvent the recruiter. Keep to the process.

      What do you mean your resume is a million times better, but you’re worried because of formatting? I’d be hard-pressed to think that formatting makes much of a difference and you’ve already cleared the hurdle of getting an initial interview.

      If you have a relationship/rapport with the recruiter and this is about something more than formatting that is directly related to the job, I think you can inquire casually of the recruiter, but not just send something. Send your thank you email (advice on that is in the archives) and add something like, “I recently updated my resume with more info on my success with X and Y. Would it make sense for your process for me to send the updated version?” Only send it if you get a YES.

      Again, do not circumvent the recruiter.

      1. Eager Job Applicant*

        Thanks for this advice. I was told by the job coach that my resume before was pretty bad and that everyone uses bullet points. This was really eyeopening for me because I’ve used the same format for the last 10 years or so and never had issues. So it includes a change in formatting from paragraphs to bullet points, but also a greater emphasis on tangible achievements rather than just tasks. I completely acknowledge that my old resume must have been good enough to get the phone interview, and two internal promotions before that, but it was ripped apart by the job coach and colleagues within the field. I feel really self-conscious about it now in such a way that the recruiter, having known me and worked with me might overlook this, but a hiring manager who doesn’t know me might see it negatively. I don’t want that to be a reason that i don’t make it to the next round. I think I’ll sit tight, and maybe plan to just bring the updated version if i make it to the in-person interview.

        1. LawCat*

          I wouldn’t bring it to the in-person interview. At that point, the hiring manager has already decided to interview you so the concern that that the resume is an impediment to getting an interview is gone. I think it would get things off to an awkward start to expect the hiring manager to review the new resume before starting the interview or to hand it to the interviewer at the end. Focus on interview skills for the interview. If there is something not on your resume that is relevant, it can come up as part of the discussion.

          *If* you’re going to bring the resume up, bring it up with the recruiter now. Anon 2 also suggested some good language.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Yes, don’t send it or bring it. It will be annoying to basically ask them to read a new document.

            It’s true that bullet points are better, but you’re hardly the only candidate not to use them.

            Leave this situation alone. It will be fine as it is.

          2. LawCat*

            As an example of something that happened to me with a *substantive* aspect of work not on my resume:

            For my current job, the position is with an organization that I had worked over a decade prior. It was not a long-term job (it had a natural end date in under a year) and the nature of the work was not related to my current profession. I was torn, but ultimately decided to leave it off my resume to focus the resume on my success, experience, and skills in my profession.

            The organization and how it operates are not widely known and how it operates is unique. At my first interview, one of the interviewers mentioned, “Not many people know much about Organization so I can explain a bit more.” And I let him know, “Actually, I used to work there in X capacity for Y division so I am familiar with Organization and how it operates.” We talked a bit more about in brief and. The fact that I once worked for Y division was of interest since it turned out the lawyer they had doing certain legal aspects of work related to Y division was moving on.

            At my final interview with Big Boss, it also came up organically. There was no need to submit a resume or show up with one. It would have been awkward to do so.

    2. Anon 12*

      If you know the recruiter and she’s in your corner, ask her. Hey, I was thinking about my resume and spent some time spiffing it up. Is it too late to get a more current version into the process?

  165. Very Anon For This*

    I found out there is a national Day Without Women in the works, because I heard my boss ranting about it.

    I would have understood something like “hey, guys, we need coverage, please think about the consequences.” Or even “unexcused absences are serious, no matter what your reasoning.”

    What he actually said: “If any of you take off for that stupid women’s thing, you’re fired.”

    I don’t have a question. I just want company while I drink. Although I wouldn’t turn down a rousing chorus of “wow, your boss is an ass.”

    2. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      Well, he is!

      Also, that day is meant to include any chores: but I’m a woman married to another woman! I am sure our cats would eat us if we didn’t take care of them for the day.

      1. The IT Manager*

        I don’t get the chore thing. Because I live alone, if I don’t do chores that just means I have chores to do tomorrow. OK, I do get the chore thing. there is an assumption that all women are married and do chores only for men or their kids.

    5. The IT Manager*

      I agree with your second paragraph. I understand companies/bosses that might look at you suspiciously if you “call out” or “call in sick” on that day though.

    8. MsMaryMary*

      I don’t think my workplace will be very supportive either, but what if I put in for PTO that day? My manager is a nice person but a little oblivious, there’s a good chance she wouldn’t put two and two together if I asked for the time off ahead of time.

      I also live alone and will be doing at least some housework that day. A girl’s got to eat (and so does her dog).

  166. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

    Wow, your boss is an ass. Wish Friday afternoon desk beer was a thing at my current workplace, but I’ll tip one in four hours for ya.

  167. tooLOUD*

    I’m having a problem with ambient office noise.
    In my current office space, my cubicle is one of a group that is clustered together in a smaller room. My problem is, the employees around me often take conference calls, in-person meetings, or even informal chat sessions in their cubes, which is distracting me. I’m a very easily distracted person, so it’s hard for me to tell if they are being “too loud” or if I’m just being overly sensitive.
    I’m a new hire, and I have been doing a lot of training on my computer. It involves a lot of technical material that I have to read and understand, which is essentially impossible for me to do if I hear background noise. The employees in the cubes around me are senior. Because I’m very new, and also more “sensitive” to noise than the average person, I don’t know how appropriate it is to speak up to the others.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for how to either approach them about the noise level or solutions for me to work on blocking out noise??

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I wouldn’t say anything to them about it – it sounds like the level of sound isn’t out of the ordinary and since you’re new, you don’t really know what’s normal to the culture or not. I’m afraid I don’t have any brilliant suggestions. I work in a shared space with a couple dozen people and rely on headphones when I really want to drown out conversations. I’ve also worked places where you could take work to a conference room or library for extra quiet, but that doesn’t work so well if you need to be on your computer. I wonder if there are exercises online to help train yourself to focus?

    3. animaniactoo*

      “I’m finding that the setup here is leaving me very open to distraction with conversations frequently happening around me, and I’m having a problem focusing on the technical materials I need to be working with. Would it be an issue for me to wear headphones to block that out so I can focus?”

      1. tooLOUD*

        Do you think this would come off as me trying to tell them to be quiet passive aggressively? The person I would ask if headphones are ok (my manager) sits right near me and is one of the biggest “culprits” of taking meetings in her cube.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq*

          Using headphones in shared spaces is SUPER common. I wouldn’t even use the “I’m having trouble concentrating” language, I’d just ask if headphones are okay.

            1. MegaMoose, Esq*

              You know, I don’t think I’ve ever actually asked either! But I can’t remember the last non-retail place I worked where you didn’t see people wearing headphones on a regular basis.

              1. MsMaryMary*

                Our CEO once asked someone why we all were wearing headphones and was completely flummoxed that we listen to music or podcasts while working. He thought we might be taking dictation, but was confused as to why all of us would be transcribing. Then again, he’s probably had his own office since before the walkman was invented.

                1. Drew*

                  I can’t do podcasts because spoken words are distracting, but music (and even music with lyrics, if I know it well) is GREAT for my concentration, until one or another of my annoying coworkers hovers by my elbow waiting for me to notice them. I really want to bring in a squirt bottle: “No distracting me when I’m concentrating!” *SPRITZ*

    4. Apple Brown Peggy*

      That’s rough. I’m a similar boat, working in a shared office space. Plus my boss is an ice-chewer, the sound of which makes me want to gnaw my arm off. I use headphones (with music, or white noise) or if it’s really bad, I can post up in our inventory room/lunch space for a few hours.

      Since you are new, I wouldn’t say anything – just use headphones or earplugs, or find out a conference room you can use. If someone brings it up, maybe mention that your work can be so technical and you get easily distracted, but I wouldn’t ask anyone to change anything at this point. I’m also sensitive to noise and this has worked well for me in the past.

      Good luck with it all.

  168. Wendy Darling*

    I’ve got the waiting-to-hear-back-after-a-job-interview blues.

    Honestly at this point I want a job 60% so I can have a job and stop depleting my savings and 40% just so I can stop job searching. Burnout is real!

  169. mirinotginger*

    How bad does it look if you leave your GPA off your resume. My husband is getting ready to graduate from college with an aerospace engineering degree from a highly thought of (and academically challenging) university. Additionally, he has several internships under his belt, and 6 years in the Navy as a nuclear technician, so his resume is pretty impressive. However, he’s not the best engineering student and that shows in his GPA. Obviously, it’s required for online application systems, but is it horrible to leave it off his resume? He’s a good engineer or engineering tech, but most people don’t even see all the great stuff he does because of that one little number at the top. Any other advice for someone in his position to find a job? Thanks!

    1. engr*

      I recently graduated from engineering school, and I did a lot of workshops, etc. with the career services at my school. I think the general consensus was that if your GPA is below 3.0, you may want to exclude it from your resume.
      The way that it was frequently explained to me was that obviously if an employer or recruiter ask you for your gpa, you must be honest and tell them what it is, but if you want to leave it off, that’s up to you. Since your husband does have a wealth of other experience that would probably make him a good candidate, I’d say he can leave his GPA off of his resume and still have a good chance of getting looked at.
      The only thing that I’d wonder about is, if an employer sees that someone left off their GPA, they probably will assume it’s bad… so it’s up to him to decide “how bad is bad” and if he thinks it’s low enough to really keep him from getting a job. Good luck to him!

    2. The IT Manager*

      Leave it off now. It’s not necessary on a resume and since a resume is a marketing document he should off something that doesn’t help him get the job.

      Obviously do not lie on applications.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      I would only list my GPA if it were a 3.5 or above. Your husband has plenty of valuable experience and that will speak for itself! No need to list a GPA.

      Be aware that many engineering firms do ask for transcripts… I’ve heard this from my engineer friends.

  171. Just the facts, Ma'am*

    Just a rant. Why do people feel the need to give their life stories to a receptionist? I just received a call from a client and got “Hi, I’m Jane, from Blah blah blah. I placed an order at the Teapot convention three months ago and wanted to order more.” Instead of “I would like to place an order” or “Customer Service, please.” In the meantime, I have several other lines ringing. I can deal with it, obviously, it’s just ridiculous that people can’t cut to the chase, even though I specifically answer the phone with “how may I direct your call.”

    1. Dee*

      I don’t think they are giving you their life stories, they’re saying what they want so you understand what their asking for and can direct them. It’s not outrageous and it’s pretty much what a receptionist does.

      1. Taylor Swift*

        Yeah, I agree. When I give a kind of back story like that it’s not because I just want to chat, it’s because I don’t know who or what to ask for or what information is relevant for the person answering to direct my call.

    2. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      I sympathise until I read your example. That is not a life story. It’s relevant info. If you ordered our teapots you’d need a different department if you got them at the teapots at work convention rather than the national teapots expose.

      It sounds like you could do with a system where people press 1 for x, 2 for y, etc and only get to you if those general options didn’t include what they needed.

  172. squids*

    Anyone still around?
    I’m trying to work out language around resigning from one volunteer committee, while keeping other commitments at the same organization. The “not enough time” excuse would be a complete lie. I’m finding that I have such a different work style to the chair of that committee that it’s causing friction, and I’m finding myself not really caring about the work (while still caring about the impact on the organization.)

    1. Bad Day*

      Why not talk directly tot he chair of the committee and tell them that you feel that while you care about the organization and want to stay involved, you are not the right fit for the committee. If pressed about why, just tell the truth. Your working style and the working style of the chair are too different. That seems pretty straight forward and non-confrontational. If it really is causing friction, the chair is likely to feel relieved.

    2. animaniactoo*

      “I feel that I am not effectively contributing due to differences in work styles and do not want to hamper the team or myself by continuing in this position. Thank you for the opportunity, I wish you the best.”

  173. Help with references*

    My husband has worked in customer service/tech support for the last year and a half. It’s a call center type role, but he works from home. We are looking for new jobs for him now, but are running into issues with references. AAM posts all recommend using managers as often as possible and say that it can be a red flag if none are managers and all are peers. Well, prior to this job my husband worked in the restaurant industry. The two places he was at the longest, where he had the most seniority, closed down after he stopped working there. He is still in contact with peers from those places, but none of the managers and without a location still open, tracking them down is nigh impossible. He has a good relationship with his Team Lead at his current job, but doesn’t want to use her because it would indicate he is job searching. With the high turnover rate in the restaurant industry, finding a manager that remembers him enough to serve as a reference might be difficult.

    How badly will it affect him that his references are all peers and not supervisory?

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I would go with a good peer recommendation over a manager who doesn’t remember him any day. I’d say to keep trying to track down any past manager who *would* be a good recommendation, but in the meantime use good peer references and definitely don’t go with a poor/nonexistent recommendation just to fit the “manager” recommendation. Anyone even vaguely familiar with the restaurant industry knows that there can be a lot of turnover.

  174. Ann O'Nemity*

    I had 26 hours of meetings this week, 12 hours of which are standing weekly meetings. Help me please.

    2. MsMaryMary*

      Oh no, I used to work somewhere like that. You know it’s bad when you’re double booked on a 5pm meeting. No help, just sympathy.

    3. babblemouth*

      Oh dear. I’ve been there.
      Here’s how I addressed it, though YMMV:
      – I started by bringing it to my manager. Literally showed him my outlook calendar during a one to one, showed my to-do list, and explained it had become impossible to do my job while attending all these meetings;
      – With his blessing, I started declining meetings. The way to start was by emailing each meeting owner if there were points on the agenda for which my participation was necessary, and if not, I would read meeting notes. That was hard to do actually, because I started to realise how much was on me: the fear of missing out meant that I had been attending way more meetings than I should simply because I wanted to be in the loop on everything;
      – My manager also looked at the meeting that were within his reach to influence, and turned some weekly meetings into bi-weeklies. Similarly, the meeting for which I was the owner changed: I made some biweekly, others went from two hours to one hour long;
      – I booked one morning a week in my calendar way ahead of time as desk time (I currently have it booked as far ahead as six months from now, people book me in meeting REALLY far in advance!), to be sure I had four uninterrupted hours of tackling my to-do list. I usually have it on Wednesday morning, which makes for a nice brain break half-way through the week; as a binus, I feel a bit less tired now.

      I hope this helps!

      1. Allypopx*

        “the fear of missing out meant that I had been attending way more meetings than I should simply because I wanted to be in the loop on everything;”

        This this this this this god this was me like a year ago and it just got to be too much.

        I’d take a hard look at what’s really necessary and what you can realistically bow out of. Don’t be afraid to say no!

  175. climbing the ladder Again.*

    Second question –
    How do you answer the “why do you want to move” question?
    I’m currently working in a wintery part of the country (18″ of snow yesterday!) but saw a listing for a job in the summery (hello hurricanes!) area.
    While I do have family/friends in the state, I’d be moving for the job; something common in the early stages of a career in the biz but not as much once established (i’d have to sell my home).
    I’d miss winter (yes, even 18″ at once) but it’s a good job opportunity.
    Had an interview in same area last year and the only thing I could say was that I was done with the snow & was looking for a warmer area. Didn’t seem like the right answer though.
    Suggestions?

    2. Bad Day*

      Why not tell them that the job is something that you are willing to move for and the fact hat you have friends/family in the area makes it particularly appealing?

    3. Jessesgirl72*

      Even when it’s only partially true, I’ve had a lot of luck with a partial answer of “to be closer to family”

      So something like “This job looks like an awesome opportunity for me because of X, Y, Z, but also the location is appealing because it would bring me nearer to friends and family in the state”

      A hiring Manager who thought I might quit after my first winter and move back to California was reassured by that answer and told me so.

      The parts that got 18″ of snow yesterday are also among the more expensive parts of the country to live in. Citing a better COL is also reassuring to them, assuming you’re not trying to move to California.

      In California, everyone assumes that your lifelong dream has been to live in California and they never imagine anyone would ever want to leave, so if there, your answer matters less. IME.

  176. Apple Brown Peggy*

    So I’ve been in the non-profit and behavioral health research field for about a decade. I’m considering a move into the for-profit sector. Specifically, I’ve got beaucoup experience with research, including recruitment, administering surveys, conducting focus groups, reporting on data. I’ve also done quite a bit of marketing, grant writing, HR-related duties (hiring, staff training), and of course the ever-present “other duties as assigned”. I’ve got a graduate degree (Masters in Public Health) and while I love research, I’d like to explore options other than medical research.

    I’m struggling with figuring out the type of job I would be a good fit for. The terminology seems a bit different and I find myself lost in a black hole of indeed-style job postings. I would love some suggestions/advice/feedback, especially if anyone here has made a successful transition from non-profit to for-profit.

    Thank you in advance!

  177. Bonky*

    You know Alison’s “Don’t hire friends, it inevitably goes wrong” mantra?

    I’m in the middle of it going wrong.

    When my organisation was a startup, we were pretty limited in terms of hiring, and relied heavily on our networks. I took on a person I’d been good friends with for a while who had a lot of experience in a part of teapot manufacture that require very, very close attention to detail.

    We scaled, we’re now over 100 people, we’re doing really well, and she’s now part of a much larger team. She still reports to me for structural reasons. Over the last few years the quality of her output has declined. She’s been dropping the ball for over a year now – little errors, but a truly disproportionate number of them. I give regular feedback, but it’s being ignored. I’ve had to bring her up on it and have a serious conversation about how we fix things, and what the problem behind the inconsistency might be, three times already this year. (This is a role where consistency is absolutely key.) It’s also *so* important that her colleagues don’t perceive her role as a sinecure she only got because she’s friends with me; or believe that I am not acting to correct her for the same reason.

    I found a bunch more mistakes this morning, and after talking to HR and other colleagues at my level have come to the very unwelcome conclusion that she’s going to have to go on a PIP, probably as a prelude to a firing (given how little change there’s been when we’ve had sessions of feedback about problems and have dug into how she’s going to work with me to make things better). I’ll be getting things rolling on Monday.

    I hate having to deal with PIPs, discipline and firing at the best of times. This is particularly painful – and doubly so given the timing – I’m about to go on maternity leave for at least six months. This is a problem of my own making, and I don’t expect any sympathy, but I’d be interested to know if any of you have been there, and whether your relationship with the person in question survived. I feel quite pessimistic about the chances of mine doing so.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      When I’ve seen this play out, whether or not you can preserve the friendship depends largely on the maturity of the friend who reports to you, and on whether she thinks you handled the process in a fair and open way. You can’t control the first, but you have a good amount of control over the second.

      It sucks though. Basically when you hire a friend, you’ve got to be okay with losing the friendship. I’m sorry.

  178. babblemouth*

    I found out recently that I have a reputation for asking a lot of questions in the office lately – in a good way, I’m told. At first I felt a bit awkward about it, but I have now decided to embrace the reputation, and doubled-down on the annoying questions that no one else asks but are nevertheless important.
    That being said, it means that out of a department of about 300, I tend to ask about half of the questions at townhalls, presentations etc. I always make sure to not hog the floor – if I’ve already asked a question, I’d wait until no one else’s hand is up before asking a second. Part of me is still worried that I’m annoying. If I was being annoying, what would be warning signs? Should I be on the lookout for something? So my the department leadership has given me signs that they really appreciate my questions, but I’m worried I will become *that person* without realising.

    1. katamia*

      If people want to leave early and the questions being asked are prolonging the meetings, then I could see people getting frustrated–I’m thinking of the letter where someone had a coworker who was desperate to prevent people from asking questions in meetings because he wanted them to end sooner. (I’m not saying you are annoying and this is absolutely happening. I’m just saying it’s a possibility.) Because you’re concerned about it, I’d recommend asking yourself whether the question’s answer is one that lots of people need to know (in which case, ask it) or whether it’s only important for you or very few people (maybe wait and do it over email or privately afterwards).

      Also, if it doesn’t relate to you directly, even if it’s important, you might not be the right person to ask a certain question. (Or maybe you are, depending on your job duties and office culture, which you know more about than I do. But, again, since you seem to be concerned about possibly asking too many questions, it’s something to consider.)

      As an outsider, I can’t really say whether you’re being annoying or asking too many questions, but these are just some things to consider.

      1. babblemouth*

        Thanks, that’s helpful!
        Based on this, I think I’m well in the clear, but I’ll keep it in mind for the future.

    2. Owly*

      You are probably fine. Most people don’t like asking questions, but still have the same concerns you do.

      A few years ago I actually decided I would ask one question per lecture, town hall, etc because the askers were largely men and I didn’t want there to be such a gender disparity to the discussion. I really don’t care if I am annoying because I think it is ultimately for the best. As long as you are dominating a conversation and the questions are interesting and relevant, I doubt anyone minds.

    3. tigerStripes*

      As long as it is actually important to know the answers, it should be OK. I know someone who sometimes asks questions that really don’t need to be asked, and it’s annoying.

  179. Annie Moose*

    I’m really enjoying NewJob, but one annoying thing is just how much managing up is necessary here.

    Bit of a weird situation: The project I’m on is being done by this freelancer guy who pays my company for me and two other developers to help out. So there’s him (the project lead, Fergus), a couple other developers that came with him (dunno where they came from originally), and three contracters from NewJob (me, Wakeen, and Leonard).

    Fergus is… very much a developer, and definitely is not a people manager kind of guy. Even worse, he refuses to write anything down. Which means you’ll have this great conversation with him, where you make all sorts of important design decisions, and then a week later he’ll have forgotten all of it and be pestering you on why you did it that way instead of this other way. He changes his mind constantly, and he’ll tell me one thing and Wakeen another and Leonard a third. If we ever have questions for our actual clients or ask about documentation, he brushes it off because, well, he knows the system SO well, and he understands the requirements SO well, so we can just ask him for everything. Yet he doesn’t tell us any of this stuff when he assigns us work, leaving us to guess at it (and inevitably we miss something).

    I’m slowly learning how to manage this (for example, pretending you didn’t notice he changed his mind at first, because the odds are high that if you don’t say anything, he’ll switch back to the original decision anyway), but we waste SO much time when he changes his mind, forgets things, doesn’t tell us about requirements, etc. Wakeen, Leonard, and I are trying to improve things where we can (for example, pushing for better documentation), but change is clearly not going to happen any time soon.

    Sigh…

    I make him sound worse than he is, most of the time he sorta lets us do whatever so it’s not a constant problem, but it just gets exhausting sometimes! I feel like I need to manipulate him to make clear decisions and move things forward, but I feel guilty about that. :/

    1. Gadfly*

      I was a sales assistant/office support person and got really good at the recap email because of similar sounding sales people I supported

      1. ArtK*

        That’s what I was going to say. If Fergus won’t document, then you have to document. “As we discussed this morning, we’ve decided that all grey teapots will have pink polkadots around the handle.”

        1. babblemouth*

          Yes, I’ve started to do that with a client since decision made kept being put back on that table. It’s very practical to be able to pull up an email confirming the decision made orally.

  180. Argh!*

    I’m in the middle of writing a performance evaluation for a mediocre who is rather narcissistic. Everything is somebody else’s fault. The job is beneath him. He’s a victim of xyz disorder but he’s not making excuses, just explaining it to me (it changes every 6-12 months). The rules don’t apply to him (and he’s insubordinate). When he half-asses something and I catch it he acts like gremlins have been messing with his work and has no idea how to prevent the same mistake (which means the same mistakes happen over & over). He resists all attempts at coaching because nobody has anything to say that he needs to hear.

    I hate evaluation time. It magnifies everything x100.

    1. Rincat*

      Ugh I’m sorry. I just left a job that had one of those people as a coworker, and just being a peer was stressful enough. I can’t imagine being his manager!

      1. Argh!*

        I want to escalate the insubordinate issues to a written warning, and my boss unfortunately won’t let me do it. We did something of a PIP on another issue which did improve but just enough to avoid additional discipline.

  181. Get A Haircut*

    Mostly lurker here, but I need to de-lurk to vent a little this week.
    So many applications… so many cover letters… resume has been tidied up for what seems like ages now. Ugh. It’s getting kind of demoralizing.

  182. Anon Socially Awkward Teen*

    This isn’t something urgent but it’s been on my mind again lately. So I thought I would post it here and see what other people think of it.
    Back when I was fresh out of high school, 18, kinda goth, very socially awkward and shy, I did a couple of internships before starting college. One was a 2-week gig in a design agency. It kind of felt like a short-time thing for high schoolers interested in graphic design. Anyway, to get to the point of my story, one of the administrative staff didn’t seem to like me very much. I was tasked with crafting something in a meeting room and didn’t clean before my lunch break because I wasn’t done the project. When I came back, everything was put away. When I went to ask where everything was she reprimanded me for leaving a mess in the meeting room where potential clients might see it. Which was fair, I guess, but felt like the end of the world to an 18-years-old with untreated social anxiety. I somehow made it through. Nobody else mentioned anything.
    Monday of the second week, however, on my train ride home I overheard a conversation with one of the women ripping into the odd new intern. You know that sinking feeling in your stomach? Yup, it was the same employee. I heard about how strange, unfriendly and gloomy I was until I finally reached my stop. I spent the evening crying and questioning every interaction I had had at the internship. The next morning I called to quit prematurely because of “personal reasons”. They were super nice and understanding about it. Nothing else ever came of it. Nowadays, my social anxiety is under control, I don’t wear that much black anymore (mostly) and I haven’t quit anything prematurely again. :) But what would you have done? Would you have stuck through until the end of the second week? Approached the employee and nicely adressed her concerns? Walked towards her in the train and made uncomfortable eye contact? :D

    1. fposte*

      At eighteen? I’d have probably done pretty much what you did; I didn’t have a ton of experience in difficult situations.

      Now? I think it would be kosher to ignore her on the train, and it would also be okay to approach her to say sincerely “I’m sorry I’m causing so much trouble; I hope we can talk about this in the office tomorrow to make my remaining week easier on you” and then go back to your seat. And then the next day at the office ask for guidance or an appointment to talk. If I ignored her on the train, I wouldn’t bring up that I heard her; I’d either let it ride for a week or on Monday say I know I’ve been trouble and I appreciate her patience; is there anything I could do to make my remaining week easier on her?

      But you were eighteen and you were there a whole freaking week; she probably spent more time fulminating than you did in the office, so it’s pretty likely something was going on with her that had nothing to do with you. Yeah, you probably should have cleaned up the meeting room, but that’s the kind of thing you’re there to learn.

    2. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I’d probably have done the same thing as you at that point in my life, and I was being treated for my social anxiety at that point! I’m feeling horrified just reading about it happening to you. Adult me would still feel mortified, but would do my best to let it go and be as good an employee as I can be. There’s nothing to can do to make people like you if they’ve decided not to like you, and now you’ve learned something about how that office works.

    3. Temperance*

      I’m very assertive to the point of kind of acting like a dick on occasion. So I probably would have stood up, walked next to her, and said “OKAY BARBARA, LET’S CHAT ABOUT THE WEIRDO” and made her piss her pants. I’m really mean though, and don’t have social anxiety.

    4. LCL*

      At 18? My personality is much different from yours, per your description. I’m not claiming my way is better. I’m not saying you are bad, it takes all kinds to make a world and you are brave to post this. But at 18, I was fu@&/$ fearless. I believed my way was the best way, and the world would be a better place if more people were like me. I would have confronted them, and lectured them about how odd is relative and their judgements were superficial and all that blah blah blah. And been fired the next day, I am sure.

    5. Get A Haircut*

      Yeah, I don’t see what the problem is with that mean person. I’ve seen plenty of goths & ex-goths in art & design fields, to the point of, “nothing to see here”. As a creative person mid-project, I would’ve been pissed if my set-up was cleaned up before I finished. Who does that?

      But, to address your question: 18 year old me probably would’ve reacted the same way you did. But looking back, adult me would have the experience to know that it was her problem. If that happened to me now, I still think I’d be flummoxed in the moment, though…

    6. ..Kat..*

      You were 18 and doing an internship. You were there to learn. She should not have crapped all over you. Consider this an important lesson for you in how not to treat a newbie.

    7. Anon Socially Awkward Teen*

      Thank you so much for your feedback, everyone! It felt kind of freeing to share this experience and really helpful to get everyone’s perspective. Although I sure hope I won’t face another situation like this in the future, I think I could handle it better now (not being an anxious teenager anymore might be helpful as well).

  183. Gadfly*

    So, I am getting close to graduation and would appreciate a couple of reality checks from outside of the school’s bubble…

    First: In general, anyone have any sense of how Western Governors is generally thought of? When I look online opinon appears to be all over the place due mostly to student reviews. What do employers think? I’m having a bit of paranoia that many might lump it into the private university mess right now simply because it is an online school.

    Second: what does one do with a BS in Marketing Management? I choose it because it sounded like there were roughly a gazillion or so interesting directions to take it in. Now that I am exploring starting to job hunt I’m less clear on what it actually helps qualify me for. Again, there are resources through school, but I tend to mistrust them a bit/suspect they may be a bit too rosey. Anyone have more gritty real life advice for me?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Maybe it’s a regional thing, but I’ve never heard of Western Governors.

      Can you tell me a bit more about what kind of courses you took within your Marketing Management program? What kind of skills was the program focused on helping you develop?

      1. Gadfly*

        It is an online school, non-profit. Mostly Mountain West based I believe, but not all.

        It appears to me to be a generic BS in business (some accounting–both managerial and financial, project management, basic hr awareness, basic ethics and law, etc) with a handful of marketing focused classes on top of that.

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          It sounds like a well-rounded program, so you should be well-positioned for any number of options, based on the coursework and what you say below about your previous experience.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Gritty, real life advice: what your degree is for matters somewhat less than the fact that you have it. Rather than looking at what you’re qualified for based on the degree, go look for what you want to work as and spin your degree as an asset to that. Basically anything you want to do will have to be worked up to unless you have been on the ball with networking and also a stellar GPA.

      With my BS in geography I have managed to land a government job, a job mostly to do with creating and registering legal documents, and now a job running a safety program/marketing for a manufacturer. You’ll get where you want to go, and maybe surprising places you didn’t know you wanted to go, regardless of the actual form of your degree, if you put in the work. As evidenced by the fact that I design promotional materials and run our social media/website with a geography degree and a loose grasp of some freebie design software.

      This of course only applies to degrees like ours, which are for very broadly defined subjects. Obviously there are plenty of fields which require specific degrees.

      1. Gadfly*

        Close to what I was told when I got my first degree in philosophy, and that didn’t work out so well… although it was sort of true.

        I think I’m paranoid in part because I got stuck in a weird little niche at my last job, where it paid just a little better than similar jobs in the area (but not well enough for any real stability) but the job really had nowhere to go within the company and didn’t really build skills that clearly translated outside of the niche. I get the impression that is the sort of job that it is easiest to talk yourself into with ‘any degree.’

        And more, it just would be nice to hear what people are actually using the degree for, rather than the marketing materials the school has…

    3. fposte*

      IMHO, WGU is an “I have a degree” box checker. People aren’t going to consider it a sign of deep intellectual preparation, whether it was or not, but they’re also, if they recognize the name, not going to think of it as ITT. It’s basically the new millennium/national answer to the commuter school, which is a respectable institution.

      1. Gadfly*

        Which is about what I expected–I think I can use my last job (‘Sales Assistant’– I was creating ad campaigns, writing copy, building ads, managing clients and managing up sales people) and my first degree (Phil major with a high GPA from a more traditional university) to balance it and maybe even argue it shows flexibility and a capability for self direction…

        But that gets a lot harder if they think–“like ITT”

        1. fposte*

          I’m not saying nobody would ever think that, but most people either simply won’t have heard of it or will know what it is (or they’ll confuse it with Governors State, if you’re in Illinois).

            1. Can't Sit Still*

              I haven’t found my WGU degree (BS in Business Management) to be a detriment in Northern California. Emphasize that it’s a regionally accredited non-profit school, which is what differentiates WGU from ITT and its ilk.

              Have you talked to your student mentor about your concerns? Since it sounds like you haven’t graduated yet, they should still be a resource for you.

              1. Gadfly*

                Just started having nerves as I get close–I am talking with her. But there is this cynical side of me that doesn’t quite trust what anyone has to say about themselves.

  184. Jbern*

    How do you know if you’re getting blamed for something behind the scenes but no one is saying it to your face?

    OR

    How do you not become paranoid about being viewed as the problem?

    (Background: high-profile project taking longer to get launched. I’m in charge of designing it and launching it, but there are multiple layers above me that have impacted this timing.)

    1. fposte*

      What would you do if you were? Would it make any difference?

      I think you make sure you stay in regular communication with the stakeholders on where things are, what you’re waiting to happen, and what your timeline looks like. And the rest of it you just have to let go. For all you know they’re blaming you for something completely different :-).

  185. FrustratedAdmin*

    I am hoping that I can get some feedback from people who may have had a similar situation or have general advice. It’s a long story, but I’ll try to make it as short as possible. I’ve been an administrative assistant at a university for 2 1/2 years. It’s my first “real” job after college (I have a bachelors of science). The salary is very low (as salaries at universities tend to be for low-level staff), but the benefits are good. But I’m miserable and have been since day one. There are several things that contribute to my general dissatisfaction. Here are just three of them.

    1. Boredom – I can go months on end without any work to do. I have asked for more work, and no one has anything for me to do. I actually logged my work in a notebook for a month. Out of the 160 hours I spent at work that month, I only actually worked for 38 hours (that included answering emails and the phone – you know you’re bored when you have time to clock how long each phone call lasts). I’m not lazy. I promise. I have cleaned and organized everything in our office. I try my best to find something to do, but I eventually run out of things that I can do. My supervisor knows that I am bored, but she hasn’t done anything to give me more work. It’s not a priority for her. I also don’t bring it up to her often because I doubt complaining to your supervisor about being bored is a great idea for job security. I always get glowing year-end evaluations, so I don’t think I’m not being assigned work because they doubt my competency.

    2. Feeling Demeaned – If I do have a big project to do (rare – but it does happen occasionally), and I spend hours creating a quality presentation/paper or organizing a big event that goes off without a hitch, my supervisor takes all of the credit and never even mentions my involvement. I don’t necessarily want public praise. I don’t need them to have my name in neon letters on the front of the building. A simple “good work” in private would suffice. On the flip side, if I make one teeny-tiny mistake (like one typo in four pages of meeting minutes) it’s a huge deal. It’s not the norm for me to make mistakes like that, but everyone does occasionally. My supervisor herself is the typo queen. I’ve also heard administrative assistants referred to as “just secretaries” before. That may be true, but the way it’s said makes it seem like we’re of no more value that the stapler on their desk. It kind of stings a little.

    3. Office Politics – It’s so political around here it’s not even funny. I’m not into that. I’m not great at putting on a fake front to one person because they’re higher up on the food chain than another person. I just tend to treat everyone equally. I’m also not good at fudging information to make us look good. I’ve been asked to do that. I was told to correct grammar and punctuation on participants’ survey responses (even though the participants all had PhDs) because it doesn’t make us look good that they can’t spell or write in complete sentences. I always looked at survey responses as something not to be tampered with – the fact that I was told to “fix” their responses bugs me to this day, even though it is probably a small thing. The office morale is also terrible. We have a high (VERY high) turnover because people are generally unhappy.

    Those things just scratch the surface of everything that is wrong. I know they seem small (and there are so many people who would kill to just HAVE a job so I feel bad to even complain) but having a ton of small thing wearing away at me has made for a difficult 2 1/2 years. I’ve even started feeling doubtful as to my abilities, even though I know I’m capable of more than this. I’ve been actively applying for jobs for about a year. I’ve had several interviews, but no job offers yet. The area that I live in is flooded with job applicants and few jobs (I am not looking to move because of family), which makes it even more difficult, but I plan to continue to look for a new job. But does anyone have any suggestions on how to make my time here more bearable? If you have been in a similar place, how did you handle it? And is the above perfectly normal for an administrative assistant’s job?

    1. Amber Rose*

      What do you want to do next? And also, I’m assuming you have internet access in your downtime?

      Because you can use that time on personal development. Read up on the field you want to go into. Read pertinent news and articles. Learn something interesting. Read up on companies you’d like to work for. Research something important to you. Think about what questions came up in the interviews you had and create the perfect responses. That kind of thing.

      1. FrustratedAdmin*

        I have no idea what I want to do next. That’s part of my problem. If I did know, I would be running towards it full speed. Maybe I just need to pick a new skill and really go at it. Any thoughts on what learn-able skills or certifications employers would be looking for?

        I definitely have reviewed interview questions, which is actually how I found this site. I also have spent a lot of time looking at job hunting tips.

    2. MH*

      I totally understand where you are coming from, so know that you are not alone! I don’t think it’s necessarily typical of admin asst jobs, but I am one at a univ. too and mine is like yours a lot of the time. Luckily, I have the best boss in the whole world (I am pretty certain of that) and work in my own office so I don’t have to deal with higher ed politics (I hear stories and man oh man, it’s pretty shameful!).

      Being an admin asst with not much to do has really worn on me. I taught before I went to graduate school and I really thrive where I am more than busy and working with people. However, the job market is extremely tough where I live and like you, I am grateful for my job that at least has good benefits. I have kept my eye out for other things but nothing has come up yet. At least your still very young! I am in my early 30s, so I really feel like am at the very bottom of the ladder even though I am more than qualified to be doing other things, the opportunities just have not come my way yet.

      I would suggest auditing some courses during your day, if your hours can be flexible? I am taking foreign language courses and I love it–sometimes I feel like coming here is more about getting to learn a foreign language than my actual job :) It’s getting me through at least. I

      I have, at times, become really depressed because I want to be doing so much more, but I am trying to be patient and see what kinds of opportunities arise that I can take advantage of. So while I don’t have much advice to give, your post helps me realize that I am not alone in my situation, and that is helping me today!

    3. ..Kat..*

      Can you help out other departments when your department does not have much for you to do? If so, help a department that you would like to transfer to first.

  186. SCAnonibrarian*

    I know it’s late in the day but I really want some unbiased professional advice. I’m hiring right now and have two candidates: Gonzo and Rolf. The position is equally split in three totally different directions: 1) direct customer support across all forms of communication, 2) office manager/admin stuff (filing, routing, data processing, boring repetitive tasks and reports) and 3) a requirement to do a ‘performance’ at least twice a month, with more planned/desired. I know both Gonzo and Rolf professionally, but Gonzo a lot better – we’ve worked together previously for 5+ years. The situation: (Also I think either would work decently in the position) Rolf is excited and professional and a go-getter, and specifically excited about the possibility of performing, BUT is pretty inexperienced. There would be lots of training in the admin and performance areas, but lots of enthusiasm for all aspects of the job, and a pretty solid track record (although short) in admin and customer service. Gonzo is much more established and is old-hat at both admin and customer service, but in the past has purposefully and repeatedly declined to be involved in any part performance duties, citing personal dislike. For non-work reasons I can’t share here, I feel intense pressure to choose Gonzo, regardless of his previously stated preferences. Officially speaking I can choose freely, but there are real and important social and work negatives if I do not. (Gonzo is in a bind and very much needs this job. Also please recall that we were coworkers for a long time.) HR is assuring me that they feel anyone can do performances even if they don’t like them, but I don’t know if I agree when it seems to be active long-term dislike rather than simple ambivalence. I feel very torn, and very inexperienced at deciding. Advice please?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Are you the only decision-maker involved? It kind of sounds as if you don’t want to hire Gonzo, but you’re concerned that you will face all the blowback from that if you don’t. If it’s not strictly your decision… say, the decision of some hiring committee, could that help mitigate or at least disperse some of this blowback?

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Have you talked with Gonzo directly about your concern — as in, “In this job you’d need to do X at least twice a month and we really want someone who will be enthusiastic about doing more than that. In the past, you’ve opted out of them and said you don’t like doing them. I’ll be honest — that’s a big concern with this role. Tell me your thinking there.”

      Doing there will probably get you more data to work with.

      But I’d be very wary of hiring Gonzo given what you’ve described. If you decide not to, you can say to HR and others, “I need someone who’s excited to do performances, not someone who will see them as a chore and probably avoid expanding them in the way I need. I wish Gonzo were the right fit for that, but he’s not.”

      1. SCAnonibrarian*

        I have, and Gonzo assures me in person and during the interview process that his attitude has changed. I am concerned that his attitude change is based on need, not actual interest.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yeah, I’d think that too. It’s fair game to factor that in. Did he explain WHY his attitude has changed, in a way that you found compelling and convincing? If not, I’d still be a no on him.

    3. Language Lover*

      What are the work negatives if you don’t hire Gonzo?

      What is more important to success in this job? Established skills? Or do you think attitude and aptitude are equally as important?

      Personally, for most of the positions I hire, I have the necessary skills for the job so I can train so I will take enthusiastic with demonstrated aptitude over established but with the embodiment of a ‘meh’ attitude towards the job. I figure they’ll eventually learn everything and their enthusiasm could lead to exciting new things through their role. There is one position whose skills I don’t have and I would have to go with skills even if the attitude isn’t as enthusiastic, though.

      Your HR isn’t completely wrong. People with stage fright can work on their presenting skills through studying techniques and lots of practice. But they need to want to be able to improve as a presenter and get over those fears. That’s where Gonzo’s history and attitude would give me pause.

      I would try to get them to give you a short (10 minute) presentation as part of the interview process if you could. Rolf might be enthusiastic but a horrible presenter. Gonzo might not like it but he might do a surprisingly effective job. I think it could help in your decision making process.

      That said, based on how you’ve described them, I think you know who you want to hire. I know who I’d want to hire. Gonzo might learn to make it through those two presentations a month but he’s not going put himself out there to increase that number where an enthusiastic Rolf likely will. My experience is established people who are content to sit with their established skill set and are not curious about other skills that could be useful to them at some point are unlikely to change.

      And you have to weigh it against other social and work consequences.

  187. Mimmy*

    Guys, remember the two jobs leads I’ve been posting about? Looks like I got ’em both!! Just filled out the new hire paperwork this morning for one of the positions, and now i’m trying to get all my ducks in a row so they can do all the background checks next week. Meeting on Monday for the other position!

    *cue cautious happy dance*

  188. Secret for Today*

    I’m trying to motivate myself to start actively looking for jobs. I’ve been at my current company for the longest I’ve ever been in my career; that’s mostly because halfway through my tenure I changed roles. I’m starting to get itchy/unhappy because I feel like my work has changed enough in the past couple years that my boss doesn’t really get to see what I do, and it’s holding me back from moving upwards. I’m also feeling like I have so much history with the company (I’ve been here for more than half the time it has existed) that I am not very inspired to drive forward great new things. What’s holding me back from looking is that I really have a great situation in a lot of ways. I am well paid, I love the people I work with, and have a lot of flexibility of schedule. Some days I can see myself staying much longer; some days I feel like I need to get out.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I hate job searching with the fire of a thousand suns, but you never know what’s out there unless you try, right? Plenty of people look discreetly even if they’re not sure that leaving is the right decision – I say start looking, and if you don’t find anything that inspires you to move on, maybe you gain a new appreciation for what you do have.

  189. Amber Rose*

    Oh, I do have a question.

    I read Alison’s “everything you need to know about references” where she recommends trying hard to contact old managers if you’re out of contact with them. But what do I do if my old manager/company owner died? In fact, his death was the reason I left. Also I left on pretty bad terms so there’s nobody at that company I can really get ahold of. The job prior to that, my manager appears to have left the country or changed her name or something, she’s totally vanished.

    1. engr*

      If you aren’t planning on using anyone from the first company as a reference (which it sounds like you’re not, since you left on bad terms) then I don’t see why you’d need to get in touch with them.
      For the manager that disappeared, can you call HR and explain you’re looking for contact info for a reference, and see if they can give you her info? If they can’t then you’re out of luck.

      1. Amber Rose*

        They won’t. That information is confidential, I remember that from working there. If she was still there it would be pointless to contact her because company rules forbid her from giving a reference anyway. They were terribly strict.

    2. CAA*

      Can you find any of your other coworkers from the job with the manager you want to contact? You can connect with them on LinkedIn and then message them to ask about the manager. If you can find anyone else who worked closely with you at either of those jobs, you can use them as a reference. When you’re asked for references, you just say something like “manager at prev job is deceased, and other manager seems to have disappeared, but here are four or five other people who were in a position to see the quality of my work on a regular basis.”

        1. CAA*

          LinkedIn does have an advanced search feature that lets you bring up a list of all the members who have worked at any company. If that still doesn’t help you find anyone you recognize, then you may be stuck taking jobs where they don’t ask for references. It is going to be pretty hard to get past a reference check if you have had two jobs and can’t name even one coworker that will say you did good work.

          When you do get a new job, make sure to connect to your coworkers and managers right away so you can always reach them for future references.

  190. DietCokeHead*

    Time off request frustration. When I started working under my current manager, I had requested several PTO days in ADP. The days were not approved and finally I had to go to my manager and ask her if she could approve them. She did and I asked if there was another way for me to request PTO days. She said in the future I should email her letting her know the request is in ADP. So last week, I put through a request for a PTO day on next friday, a few days in april, and a few days in June, all corresponding to planned vacations. I also sent an email letting her know the request is in ADP. The request hasn’t been approved. I mentioned this to her this week and she said something like oh yeah, I have other requests to approve in ADP also. Am I over reacting by being frustrated? I feel like taking a PTO day should be a pretty simple thing to approve. Background info – I’m the only one in my position and either my manager or our help desk is my backup. Most requests can wait a day or two if I’m out of the office.

    1. Rincat*

      Nah, that is frustrating. That happens to my husband all the time, his manager has to be hounded to log into their system and approve the PTO.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Can you try to approach her about a more timely response? “Miranda, would it be possible for you to review my requests in the ADP and approve them more quickly when I e-mail you about them? It really helps to know as soon as possible on my end so I can finalize bookings and arrangements with other people.”

      Although, if you put in the request last week, and then spoke to her this week – was it early or late last week that you put in the request, or early or late this week that you reminded her? Because if you put them in on Thursday, I don’t think it’s unreasonable if she hadn’t replied to them by Tuesday and you may need to adjust your expectations of how long that process should take, and just alert her to the need for a response on ones that are more pressing because it’s coming up soon or you need to buy plane tickets, etc.

    3. Anon Anon Anon*

      That is frustrating. We had a supervisor where I work that wouldn’t approve PTO requests until two weeks before they were scheduled. Didn’t matter if you were putting the request in 6 months out, you would have to wait until 2 weeks before the PTO was scheduled. It was ridiculous, and you situation reminds me of that.

      Eventually, this supervisor got all her reports taken away from her. She wasn’t technically demoted (as her title and salary stayed the same), but she lost her team.

      1. DietCokeHead*

        Good news, my request was approved! Of course, I had to go to my managers office and remind her again to get it done. Sigh. Fingers crossed next time it goes smoother.

  191. Changing Focus*

    The answer to this question is probably “just freaking do it, you big baby,” but here goes: I’m really terrified of networking but work in a field where it’s really important. I got an advanced degree several years ago and have been underemployed ever since. I’ve been trying to find work in the public sector but after years of interviews with no bites, I’m thinking to try and broaden my search. I just want to work! I have a number of former classmates who do the kind of work I’m interested in and I want to reach out to them both for advice and to see if they know of any openings, but I don’t know how to broach the “why now after four years?” question. It feels like I’d be saying “oh, I’ve given up on what I really want to do and figured I’d give something else a try.” Any Friday afternoon warriors have any advice?

    1. animaniactoo*

      “I’ve been hitting a dead-end finding a position that’s an exact match for my field, so I’m expanding my search and X is something that looks interesting to me and I think I can do well.”

  192. animaniactoo*

    rotfl. oh man. I am gaining quite the reputation. I’ve mentioned previously that one of my roles is to learn whatever new software kind of stuff that we’re using and explain the parts they need to know to my co-workers. I’ve become the mostly go-to for our project management software, mostly because it was my push for us to start using it effectively, and worked with the person who sets up new projects in the system to make it work for us, figuring it out as we went along.

    Just now I got called into a meeting with another department who is starting to use it, to explain to them what it can do and how they can make it work for themselves. They thanked me much, told me how useful it had been and how clear I’d been able to make what they’ve been struggling to figure out. How did they get to me? They went to the person who actually has the management capability for it (I don’t, I just have access to work on the projects/tasks when assigned to me) and she said “Go to her, she’s the one who actually figured out how to set it up, I just did the steps once she figured them out.”

    Fortunately, I don’t think any other departments will need a rollout on this… my boss would be super annoyed that I’m off doing that instead of designing. We’re light right now, so I don’t think she’ll have too much of a problem with the fact that they said they’d be back with more questions.

  193. femaleProgrammer*

    I’ve been wondering why there aren’t more women in programming/computer science. I’m female, Gen X, and I like programming. It seems like the percentage of women who are lawyers or doctors is much higher than the percentage of programmers.

    Maybe my view of things is different because my parents brought me up with the idea that girls can do just about anything that boys can, and they encouraged me to be good at math. Maybe part of it was that I went to a small school, so I didn’t have to prove myself much when it came to math, etc. because teachers talk to each other about their students. The ironic thing is that I rarely use math when I program.

    What do you think about why there’s a gender gap in programming?

    Oh, and I guess I’ve been fortunate in this, but the guys I work with and the guys I went to college with were generally nice guys who treat/ed me OK.

    I’m an INTJ.

    1. Rincat*

      There are lots of articles about this that can article the reasons far better than me, and the reasons for it are myriad! So I’m just going to briefly share my own experience. I’m in the same demographic as you, I believe my parents really did think that girls could do anything boys could do, but for me individually, they didn’t think I could do math, or technical things. They praised my computer skills for sure, and to this day I still help them with computer-y things, but for them, if something is hard = don’t do it. So the first time I struggled in math – I must be bad at math, and shouldn’t do it. The first time I struggled in biology – I must be bad at biology, and shouldn’t do it. The first time I struggled at my help desk job – I must be bad at IT, so pick another career path. They taught me about the important of a good work ethic, but oddly not much about perseverance. I’m now a SQL programmer with an English degree, and quite happy!

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        Interesting that my parents were exactly the opposite. If I started something, they made me stay with it for the entire season/school year. If I wanted to quit anything because it was hard, they told me to try harder. If I’d needed a tutor, they’d do what they could to afford one.

        Still didn’t make me love me love Math.

    2. Jessesgirl72*

      I’m solidly Gen X, who went to a large school, where I was I think the only girl in my high school computer classes, but my teacher there really encouraged me to pursue it. He spent a lot of (appropriate) time encouraging me. My parents bought me Legos and other building toys, and a Commodore 63, took me to science museums (and I went with my girl scout troop!) and no one I knew ever, not once, told me science or math or computers weren’t girly or appropriate. All the TV shows I was allowed to watch stressed that girls could do anything boys could.

      My Programmer husband assures me that he uses Calculus almost every day, but regardless, despite having parents and teachers who told me I could do anything, and Science teachers who actively did everything to completely discourage gender bias (like the one I had 3 years running, in different subjects, who had a randomizing method to make sure that everyone got called on in class no more or less than anyone else!) I just didn’t love STEM. I CAN do math (B’s mostly, until I got to Trig where they let me use a calculator, and then A’s), but it doesn’t come as easily to me as everything else, and I just don’t love it. I was actively pursued by universities who wanted me for programming and even if I did never have to use math once I got there, I was going to have to sit through 4 years of math classes, where I’d hate it almost every minute. I actually liked the programming (It was a language, and I’m good at languages) but not what it would take to get the degree. I took just enough math in college as my BA required, and not a minute more.

      So I dated pretty exclusively from the Comp Sci department in college, and spent hours in the computer lab in my spare time, and always have and do USE computers for hours every day, both for work and play. I can build my own computer from scratch and wrangle the software on it to do what I want it to do. But I was never interested in more than that.

    3. Ya Heard With Perd*

      I’m similar to Jesses girl in how supported I was to pursue STEM in school. I made it 3.5 years in higher ed in STEM, but my heart wasn’t in it and I switched into technical communications and now design (I like the technical + creative parts of it). I took a comp sci course, but was completely turned off. All the boys in my class (bc they were ALL boys) already were familiar enough with coding that they never paid attention and worked through all the problems with ease. I had never worked with any programming language in my life and was so far behind and struggling to keep up. I had good marks in physics and math, but for some reason completely stumped by programming. I dropped the class, dropped the sciences, and never looked back. I’m still more tech savvy and mathy than a lot of girls, I suppose, but found that I need the visuals of design over the data problems of programming. HTML, CSS, and basic JS are more my game.

    4. Anxa*

      This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I think part of it has to do with having no track record of success. I think sometimes girls and women are more likely to need a proven track record of competency to feel confident in something. I don’t mean to suggest they are timid or won’t blaze a trail, but they are more likely to be scrutinized as they are learning something.

      There are no (or weren’t, I’m Gen Y) programming or computer science classes in elementary school. I know for me, the only computer classes that weren’t about office applications were filled with boys who had been programming for years or were ‘good with computers.’

      I did have to take a computer class last year for something and asked if I could sub programming in. It wasn’t really programming, it was a lot of copying and pasting and filling things in with Alice. But it was super easy and had me wondering if maybe I could be a programmer? I also like playing around with R and using some python scripts for some science software.

      Also, I was always afraid I could break a computer tinkering with it. I was always very hands off with pretty much EVERYTHING because I was afraid to break stuff. My brother was like professional breaker of things, and wasn’t loved any less, or considered a bad kid, so I don’t know why I didn’t get over that.

      Funny thing is…. my mom was a programmer. And yet I never considered it. It was like a secret world of her life I had no exposure to (she stopped when I was little).

      1. Tau*

        All this sounds super familiar to me. I still remember thinking I could never possibly hack a computer science degree because there was some guy in my class who’d made his own business developing software for people at 15 and how could I possible compete? And the being afraid to break stuff, definitely, when my brother was assembling his own computer from parts.

        I also hear you on the “funny thing…” bit. In my case, my mother was and still is an IT professional! I really don’t know why I thought I wouldn’t be able to compete.

        Anyway, I feel like there’s a sort of… internal wellspring of confidence in yourself… that gets supported in men far more than women, and that women are far more likely to be taught to look for external validation instead of just believing in themselves. There were other factors, but this is one of the big things that drove me out of academia – I had that tiny voice in the back of my head constantly asking me if I was good enough, and I didn’t have anything to feed it with because you just don’t get that sort of validation at the research level. The fact that I needed it, that I didn’t have the inner drive and confidence of many of my male colleagues, felt very gendered. I think that can be a real barrier, particularly if you’re joining a subject where you’re a strong minority and it feels like everything you do is also a referendum on Woman’s Ability To Program.

        For what it’s worth, I am in fact a programmer now! And although it’s tough at times and wow, can it be isolating to look around at the dev team meeting and go “…yyyyep I am in fact the only woman here” I’m enjoying myself and doing really well. If you’re wondering if you can be a programmer, I’d say it’s definitely something worth looking into? Turns out, you don’t have to be one of the people who’s programming their own games for fun in high school to be a successful developer, and if you have a certain bent to logical problem solving (which “playing around with R” certainly sounds like!) you can do really well.

    5. CAA*

      I would strongly encourage you to listen to this podcast. It addresses your exact question. http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding

      I graduated high school in 1981 and college in 1985, and during those years, there were lots of women in CS. My first job out of college was as a SAS programmer in a department that had more women than men. By the time I became a manager and started hiring, I could tell that things had changed, but I had no idea why. Then as I listened to the Planet Money episode I linked above, it was like the light bulb went on. I can remember all the advertising and pop culture things they talk about, but at that time I was not really in a position to see what effect that had on girls in academic environments.

      When I was a teenager, there was a lot of awareness of the lack of girls in science and math fields. I even attended a couple of all-day events put on by Mills College where women working or teaching in these fields would come and do activities and try to get girls excited about a future in what we now call STEM. It’s sad that even with all this awareness, we managed to go backwards and push women out of another discipline.

      1. Anxa*

        My mom had absolutely no track record of success in math or science, or even really language. She was not into computers or technology in the least.

        But in the late 70s (I’m guessing around then) her company pushed her into enrolling in their programming classes. She was a secretary and developed a reputation for outstanding proofreading skills. Most of her cohort were women, I believe. She wants to get back into it, but has a hard time at her age keeping up with all of the changes as she was a COBOL analyst. Also she has no degree.

    6. rubyrose*

      INTJ here, late baby boomer.

      I fell into IT because I took an occupational interest test and it ranked me really high in computer programming/systems analysis. I was really good at math until I had a lousy teacher for two years in a row, so I never took calculus. The first computer programming class I took (college) had us programming calculus equations and I dropped the class. A college counselor sent me to vocational rehabilitation, who sent me to a six month technical school for business computer programming and I blossomed. After 20 years of programming I went back to college full time to finish my degree (not STEM). I did interview for a couple of programming positions and was told that with being out of the field for 3 years my skills were out of date and they could not figure out that perhaps I could be productive again with some remediation. I ended up back in IT as a Business Analyst where I often end up telling the developers how to design their code and debug it for them.

      I think there is something to be said about mental attitude. My parents discouraged me from college because they believed women did not need to go (gotta get married and have babies). I had to develop a attitude of “I can do this on my own”. Fortunately for me my teachers from fifth grade on up encouraged that. I had to do and think things through independently and not depend on group or family support. I don’t think that was the norm for women in my age group. But to be a successful developer one has to be able to think and act independently and not look for constant outside support. First day in my technical school the instructor told us: “Computers are stupid. They need a human to tell them what to do.” I latched onto that mental edge and applied it.

      Why didn’t I get a STEM degree? Frankly, I had been getting bored as a developer. I wanted to do all the tasks involved in successfully implementing a system. In addition to the programming, I wanted to work with the end users, gathering requirements, training, addressing problems. Back then, those skills were not valued by the technical community. Generally speaking, I do think women do a better job exercising those skills than men do. So I had to make a decision. Do I focus on the coding, ignore my desire to use a broader skill set, and stay in the good graces of the coders? Or do I explore other areas? I chose the latter. Fortunately for me the industry has changed and I was able to find my way to be in it again, but it took them about 15 years to change their approach.

    7. Colette*

      Former programmer/software developer here. I love programming. I also love working predictable hours most of the time, leaving work at work, and not being pressured to work massive amounts of overtime because marketing thinks programming is magic.

      And I don’t program for fun, so any job application process that involves providing code samples is a problem.

      I think there is some bias against women in the industry, but I also think young women self-select out because they’re intimidated by the jargon, or because they don’t want to be the only woman in the class. And it’s an industry where your skills get outdated fast, so if you think you might want to take time off to have kids (for example), you’re going to have trouble getting back in.

  194. Tip toeing through the tulips*

    You all, I have a problem. I never know when I should respond to some emails. If it’s a question needing a response or something actionable, that’s obvious to me. What about when it’s simply saying “We got whatever you sent us.” Does they require an “Okay. Great! Thanks for letting me know.”? What about someone stating they’ll keep your resume on file? I tend to lean towards trying to not clog up anyone’s inbox with needless pleasantry emails, but am I doing this wrong?

    2. Allypopx*

      It’s definitely not necessary, but it’s also not a huge faux pas. I think there’s some taste and style involved here. I know people who have strong preferences in both directions, but I can’t think of anyone who would legitimately hold one style or the other against someone.

  195. Bad Candidate*

    In November I applied for a job that had been posted since early October. They emailed me with more details about the job including the starting pay. This company has a good reputation and my friend’s husband works there, and speaks highly of him. The posting said experience and bachelors degree preferred, both of which I have. Unfortunately when they emailed me the pay was $3/hour less than I make now, so I declined as that’s too big of a pay cut. But, the job is still posted and keeps coming up as “Sponsored” on Indeed and is a Featured job on their own website. Would their be any value in emailing them now and asking if the pay is at all flexible?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      When you declined, did you cite the pay as the reason? If so, and they didn’t indicate that they would be flexible, I don’t see the point in reaching back out.

  196. emma2*

    Earlier this week, I had an interview with a recruiter, and she kept voicing throughout the interview her concern about the fact that my previous jobs have been focused on a specific subject area, even though I kept explaining that I was open to expanding to other areas. I even addressed this issue in my cover letter and introduction before she brought it up first. She also got it in her head that, for some reason, I would only want to work with government clients and not private clients, even though my resume indicates clearly that my current position deals with private clients. I did hold a government internship while in grad school – but that was 2 years ago.

    Basically, my question is, is it normal for a recruiter to repeatedly voice a bunch of concerns/reasons about why you might not want the job and keep ignoring your answers? And what should one do in this situation?

    (I asked this on another post, but it was kind of off topic and no one responded to it, so I’m chancing it again.)

    Thanks!!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I don’t think that it’s normal for a recruiter to do this, but there are certainly just types of people who get an idea in their head and have a hard time breaking free of it, despite evidence to the contrary. I think all you can do is ask, “Recruiter, you’ve repeated a concern about my interest in working with private clients. I want to be clear that this is something I’m very interested in. Is there a reason that this is still a concern?” or something to that effect.

    2. CAA*

      It’s certainly normal for the recruiter to voice these types of concerns, even if you did address them in your cover letter. It’s also normal for her to bring it up more than once, especially if your first response conveyed that you’re “open to expanding to other areas” rather than “really excited about this opportunity to work in a new subject area where I’d be able to apply my skills in x,y and z.” Most likely, she was asking you this question multiple times, not because she didn’t listen to your answer, but because she wanted to give you an opportunity to respond to her concern in a way that would be more impressive.

      If this happens again, and you feel that you’ve already given enthusiastic answers and taken the opportunity to relate your past experience to the new role, you can address it head-on. “You’ve asked about this a couple of times, so I understand that it’s a concern. I want to make it clear that I’m really looking forward to working in ‘new subject area’ and leaving ‘specific subject area’ behind. Are you looking for specific skills or experience that I could elaborate on further?”

      It’s also possible that she’s a lousy interviewer who should have been more specific about what she was looking for, or that she was just having and off day, or was distracted by something going on in her personal life. If it’s any of those things, there’s really nothing you can do about it, so it’s best to treat it as a case of her looking for more info than you’re giving and ask clarifying questions to try and find out what she wants.

    3. emma2*

      Thank you for the replies! I really appreciate the advice of just asking the interviewer what they are looking for in the future. I’m pretty sure I expressed my enthusiasm for applying the skills “x, y, and z” needed for the job. However, the reason the recruiter was probably concerned is the subject matter of the job varies from client to client – so there is no one subject matter for this particular job. She seemed like she would have preferred a generalist and not someone who previously expressed interest in a particular subject matter (which in that case, I don’t know why they screened my resume through.)

  197. Anxa*

    I don’t feel like I’m adapting well to my job.

    I did well in my old job, and this is pretty much the same job, but I feel more scattered and like an imposter than I ever did before! It’s amazing how much an environment can change your performance and confidence.
    -I like leading large groups and did fine when making presentations with other coworkers before, but my new co-tutor is just so different that it’s hard. Also, I keep getting distracted by things he says that I find unsettling to focus. And I’m the new person
    -There’s less paid downtime. In my old job I had set hours. I got paid whether or not I had a client. This job is more ‘flexible. I used those empty hours to prepare materials, which made me so much more efficient.
    -Here, I do have downtime but don’t have resources to use it. So, I have resources at the worksite, but not during the lab I work it. The materials I need are in the library and have to stay there. The only time I have to work on prep stuff without working off the clock is in another building. It’s all very frustrating.
    -I’m not cut out for not knowing my schedule ahead of time. I don’t have a car, so I need a ride (or give my bf a ride) or need to take the bus. I could come to work and end up with no hours, or miss an hour because it will take me a while to get to work. Plus, I have a lot of disorganization issues and rely on habits, routines, and structure.
    -Oof.

    Well, at least I’m not comfortable. More motivation to leave! Although I hate the idea of job hopping, I’m not gonna worry as much this time, I hope.

  198. Allypopx*

    I can feel my staff getting frustrated with me. I have had a lot of big projects dropped on my plate recently and I’m still figuring out the time management aspect, but I also have a big staff and they need me for a lot of things. I’ve delegated quite a bit, there’s a little bit of built in hierarchy so that even though everyone technically reports to me, there are more senior team members who can take on more. I’m trying to get a grip on everything, but stuff inevitably falls through the cracks.

    I’ve done my best to be honest with my employees, and apologize, and I’ve told them to remind me when things slip by, but I think a) they’re concerned about bothering me and b) they really wish they didn’t have to do that, which I get. I used to be a lot more on the ball so they never had to before.

    I’m keeping lists and trying to keep up with everything, and I think I will get back into a better groove, but right now I feel a little overwhelmed and guilty that it’s impacting the people below me. Any advice?

    1. Beezus*

      Can you make the hierarchy a little more formal and actually direct your less senior employees to go to the more senior ones first for most things?

      1. Allypopx*

        The hierarchy is pretty formalized to the point I can without creating new management positions, which I’m not able to do. There’s a lot of things that just have to come to me or my co-manager.

        I’m also not the only person in the company feeling this way right now I just have the largest staff so I think it feels more visible and is getting to me more.

    2. Wing Girl*

      Do you have anyone in the team that can take on the task of managing your to-do list? Part of my job is keeping up with the various tasks and deadlines my boss is responsible for and then nagging him as appropriate. We’ve developed systems that work for the two of us so that we have time every day or two (even just 5 minutes) where I can remind him of what’s coming up that he needs to be cognizant of (prepare for a meeting occurring the next day, a big report is due at the end of the week, etc.). You may not have anyone whose job description or role would make this work, but if you do this could relieve the rest of the staff from each feeling like they have to remind you individually.

  199. Junior Dev*

    I had a very hard week personally and it’s impacting my work. Basically I have some sort of Unconfirmed Brain Thing, likely one or more of anxiety, depression, or ADHD. I’m working with a doctor but it’s pretty hard and frustrating.

    It’s also forcing me to confront my low self esteem around my competence and ability to get stuff done. Minor mistakes are spiraling into a self-preservation cycle of anxiety, self-doubt, and poor concentration which causes more mistakes. I’ve been late several times, left right at or before 5 because i couldn’t stand to be at work anymore, and spent some days trying so hard not to cry. I’m scared of getting fired which just makes the anxiety worse.

    Any advice on how to 1) break the cycle 2) cope at work as best I can til I feel better 3) explain to my boss (or if I should) what’s going on 4) compensate for this awful week? I’ve only been working here a month and a half.

    2. animaniactoo*

      I think you need to talk to your boss immediately. Reference the week as being one where you struggled, and that you have been working with a doctor to address an overall issue that does not usually impact your work this badly. Address the loop that happened – you made a minor mistake and it rattled you so badly that you then made more mistakes (this is more common than you might think, so you’re likely to get some compassion for it).

      That said, is there something that your boss can do for you? Something you can ask to show that you want to make this work with them, not be their problem? Can boss give you feedback on how you’ve been doing prior to that week? Give you an idea of how often minor mistakes happen and how many it needs to be to be a major issue, so that you can cut or minimize the internal cycle when you first make a mistake with an understanding that this is not bad enough to be an issue for them at this point? Get permission to vary workbreaks so that when you start to spiral, you can remove yourself from the situation, recompose yourself, and come back in a better state?

      1. Junior Dev*

        Thank you!

        I ended up having a brief talk with my boss where I asked what I should do about the missing hours of work (from being late) and he said it was fine so long as I average 40 hours by making it up next week. I did not explicitly ask about my performance but now that I think of it all the mistakes were either stuff that only affected me directly, like being late, or that my coworkers caught before anyone outside the department saw them.

        I think next week I’ll try to have a more direct talk about my performance and ways I can do better.

        It really helped to talk to a coworker as we were going to lunch and I told him about some of my concerns, and he said they’re not too strict about that sort of thing here. There are other issues with this company–a lot of processes are disorganized, we are underpaid compared to others doing similar work–but if it’s true that I’m at a company where the occasional bad week like im having won’t cost me my job I think it would be really great for my mental health and career stability.

    3. peachie*

      Oof. That sounds rough. I’ve been there–I also have a fun anxiety/depression/ADHD cocktail, and I’ve had so many workdays/weeks/months that sound just like what you’re describing. It’s so, so hard. You’re doing great just showing up every day–seriously.

      I don’t have a ton of time to respond now so I’m just gonna throw a few things out there and come back to this this evening if I can.

      1. HOW TO BREAK THE CYCLE
      It’s good you’ve recognized this is, in fact, a cycle–it took me a long time to get to that point. I think there are a couple of things that really helped me out, but the biggest one was definitely getting away from work. I ended up taking 2.5 weeks of FMLA about a year and a half into my job. This was a result of pushing myself until my health was so bad I COULDN’T work, but it ended up totally turning around my life and my job. Unfortunately, I’m guessing you don’t have the opportunity to take personal/sick leave, and FMLA won’t have kicked in for you. If you do have any way to take advantage of long weekends, holidays, etc., I’d recommend setting one aside where you really focus on resting. Depression is a very physical disease, and it saps your energy, and I know how basic it sounds, but being able to keep your energy levels from being depleted will help SO MUCH with the mental illness.

      I’m glad you’re seeing a doctor. All the guilt that these things can cause can make it really hard to do that (or maybe I’m just projecting, haha) so it’s great that you have that in place. Definitely keep going. I’m certainly not going to tell you to take meds or not, but if you’re not, I’d consider the option. It took a long time for me to find the right meds; for a long time, the noticeable effect was “neutral” or “hellish.” But once I did, they helped me turn my life around more than I thought was possible (especially the ADHD meds). They don’t (for me) change my mood or personality or even make me any happier–but they do take away that level of guilt/panic/distraction/gloom/etc. and allow me to actually focus on the problem and actually get to work. Again, I know they’re not for everyone, and absolutely no pressure, but it’s worth the consideration if you’re open.

      If you can and if you have time, I’d also recommend a therapist. I’ve had a few and some have really helped while some have really not. The one that helped me get through my really rough mental illness/work patch had a sort of practical, “coaching” mentality–she’d have me talk about the actual problems I was having and come up with actual solutions. I dug it much more than talking about my feelings all the time.

      Oof, I gotta run, but really quick–one thing that was super, super helpful was to take some time away from work and ask yourself: What do I feel guilty about? Try to be specific–what are you actually afraid of? Really dig down–it’s often not really about the big-picture things like “I don’t want people to dislike me” (and anyhow, those big-picture worries are so esoteric they’re impossible to take steps toward fixing). Then, ask yourself, “What would make me not feel this way?” and try to think of how to get there.

      I’m not explaining that very well, so here’s a quick example. I’ll write a mock transcript of the convo I had with my therapist about this one in particular:

      PEACHIE: I haven’t been able to get out of bed this week at all. I’m so frustrated and I feel so guilty. Sometimes I actually HATE myself for not being able to get out of bed.
      THEARPIST: What do you feel guilty about?
      P: Being late, and feeling like there’s nothing I can do to fix it. I walk in the door to work and I’m already ashamed.
      T: What would make you not feel that way?
      P: I don’t know. Being able to wake up on time? I can’t even get out of bed in the morning–I’ll just lay there for a half hour, knowing I need to get up but not.
      T: Ok. What do you do when you wake up?
      P: I turn off my alarm. I check my phone. I end up playing on my phone for a long time before I get up, even though I feel guilty as I’m doing it.
      T: Is that a problem?
      P: Yeah, it’s a problem because it makes me late. I want to just be able to jump out of bed, but I can’t.
      T: Well. Okay. So you know you’re going to do it, right? This is already a part of your daily routine, yes?
      P: I guess, but it’s messing everything else up.
      T: It sounds like the problem isn’t what you do in the morning, but what happens a little later when you get to work. If that’s the case, and you know you’re going to do this, why not set your alarm 10 minutes early so you have a set 10 minutes to play on your phone?
      P: …I feel dumb for not thinking of that.

      —

      And you know what? Sometimes being able to pinpoint those dumb little things and come up with a solution based on reality (rather than what you WANT to be reality) can really, really help.

      Sorry, JD, I’ve gotta run–I’ll try to write more later, and best of luck.

  200. Sophie*

    I’m in a not so great job and it’s a pretty dysfunctional workplace. That being said, I seem to be the target for my co-workers or they just want a reaction from me. They started to make fun of me personally- making little comments about my life/appearance, talking about leaving for another job. My supervisor even made passive-aggressive remarks about growing up in a wealthy area and people who still live at home/single women. Stuff that is making me uncomfortable and way out of line in terms of work place banter. I know they don’t like me, but why do they treat me this way?

    1. Allypopx*

      From the information here I’d guess they don’t think you’re a good culture fit (which I think says good things about you) and they’re passive aggressively trying to bully you out. Do you tend to react to things? I’d probably go ice cold on them and make “I don’t think that’s very appropriate” my response to everything. “I don’t like to discuss that at work.” etc. It sounds very high school, I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

    2. Ya Heard With Perd*

      People don’t like me at my job and I don’t know why. I’ve always been pretty well-liked and praised for my work, so I can’t for the life of me figure out why I’m so unpopular here. I am working in a pretty lame job in an industry completely outside of my previous work experience, but was forced to accept because of a recent bout of unemployment. I don’t know if they can tell I’m an outsider (I’m a creative in a very non-creative, traditional pink-color role) and that’s why they all hate me? But I do my work and attend all their stupid forced team-bonding events. Whatever.

      2. CAA*

        Do you ever let your tone of voice or body language express that you think this job is lame, that you feel like an outsider, that you believe they hate you, or that their team-bonding events are stupid? This is the kind of attitude that tends to come through even when people think they’re hiding it well, so as long as you’re feeling this way, they will probably know it. It’s practically impossible to do and it would take some time to get an effect, but if you can change the way you feel about this job it would change the way you’re presenting yourself. Is there anything good in this job?

    3. Colette*

      How do you react?

      They’re out of line, and you shouldn’t have to deal with this, but you may be able to shut it down. Some techniques that might help:
      – complete non-reaction – pretend you didn’t hear the comment.
      – “wow” – you’re going for non-emotional but also unimpressed, and stop there – don’t fill the awkward silence.
      – “why would you say that?”

      Good luck.

  201. RavensandOwls*

    No question, just excitement: I got contacted for another job interview thorough a fantastic nationwide nonprofit, and was asked to forward a cover letter to a great startup because they were so impressed with my resume! Eeee!

  202. ANONYCOMPLAINER*

    I HATE MY JOB! I have a 90-day probation period and cannot take PTO until I have hit that mark. I live in a very cold climate and have been sick three times in two months and was forced to take an unpaid sick day once because I was so contagious and miserable and it would have been really rude for me to show up and infect my office. My 90th day is next Friday and my family is coming in from Home State to visit me. I can get PTO at a manager’s approval, but was denied. I get that it’s just following the PTO probationary period rules but she could have approved it if she wanted to. It wouldn’t be so bad if I didn’t hate everything about my job and got along with anyone here or my boss. I only accepted this stupid position because I had just relocated to a new state and was desperate, but I hate the role, the industry, and most of these people. This is just icing on this stupid, stupid cake.

    /rant

    1. Rincat*

      I’m sorry! That really sucks that you can’t even take sick time. My workplace has a “no PTO” rule for the six-month probation, but that just applies to vacation – you can take sick time if you need to. I hope you are able to find something better soon!

      1. ANONYCOMPLAINER*

        No vacation I can understand. But being forced to come into the office sick and contagious is just ridiculous. I work in a very well-to-do industry with plenty of very high paying clients. Seeing me in that office seems like bad business?

    2. Freya UK*

      I’m sorry! I’m still in the probationary period for a job I hate too (like you, don’t like the people, the industry, lied to about the role etc etc). I would’ve walked on the second day but I got engaged between being offered the job and my start date and it pays well, so I’m literally counting down the weeks/months until I can walk (i.e.; the wedding!) – if they keep me on of course.

      Perhaps set a goal to leave like I have, to get you through? At least probation is over soon and you can feel a bit more secure while you look elsewhere :)

  203. TheHelpDeskAvenger*

    People currently/who have had help desk type jobs!

    What was your weirdest/funniest customer call?

    Please entertain me as my entire department is out and I don’t have much to do today. Thanks!

    1. Ya Heard With Perd*

      I used to do customer service in the outdoor industry. I had a guy call in every week to tell us how much we liked one of our products. We called him Bob Teapot. He would talk your ear off for about how we made the best gaddarn teapots and he gives everyone teapots and wears two teapots at all times!!

      I don’t think people quite realize how NOT anonymous CS lines are. The teams aren’t that big and we talk about each and every one of you wack-jobs.

      1. TheHelpDeskAvenger*

        Oh yes! I was talking with a coworker today over chat about someone. I love your username, btw. :)

      2. periwinkle*

        When I worked in tech support for a long-gone software/hardware developer, we used to get a call once every week or so from a customer who just wanted to shoot the breeze with our lead tech. He was a big fan of our products and always wanted to know if we had updates or new stuff on the horizon. We were actually fond of this guy – recently retired, bored no doubt, but charming and didn’t talk for too long. A few years after I left that job, I read a memoir from a reasonably well known journalist. One of the journalist’s amusing stories involved a co-worker at Big Network… it was our fan.

        Sadly I wasn’t the one who fielded this call but… among our products were a line of monitors, one of which was intended for higher-end graphics work. A military person called one day for some assistance, then mentioned that he much preferred our monitor to the competition’s similar offering. “Simulated nuclear explosions look so much more realistic on yours!”

    2. TheHelpDeskAvenger*

      Forgot to add my own: I worked help desk at my university when I first started here, and a student called in to say someone was hacking her online math exams while she was trying to take them. I reviewed the problem and it was a well-documented issue of needing to update her Java – the solution was simple and she could have it resolved in minutes. She utterly refused that explanation and argued with me for many, many days on email about how someone was hacking her, and sent emails to the president, the system chancellor, etc about how the government was after her and we were all a part of the conspiracy, and she lived out in the country so they couldn’t find her. And then she just disappeared.

    3. Temperance*

      Okay so not CS/helpdesk, but I get calls from people regularly who want pro bono help. They are almost always very strange and abnormal.

      The most memorable was the total nutjob who called and wouldn’t get his name, but he assured me he was a government informant for the FBI because he had mob ties. He had seen people get killed and was currently in witness protection. He was calling me because the “love of his life” and his “soulmate” was also in witness protection and he needed an attorney to sue the government so they would tell him her location. I told him no, and he then spent 15 minutes berating me and telling me that I was afraid of the government, and I must be SUCH A BAD LAWYER because I’m afraid of Big Government and won’t take them on.

      I kind of responded by asking why he wasn’t doing this himself, since he’s apparently not scared. He then said that he wasn’t an attorney and he couldn’t risk his placement in Witness Protection, but he knows killers.

    4. Drew*

      Not a phone bank but an actual in-person help desk: I was the warm body on site in a campus computer lab that was open 24/7.

      One night, we had hellacious storms and the room I was in (with LOTS of electrical cables about six inches under my feet) started flooding. I didn’t realize it until someone came to ask me a question and mentioned that the floor was wet. I looked over the counter and saw a growing puddle, heading toward the rest of the lab.

      So I called my supervisor (waking her up) and asked her what to do. “Close the damn lab, obviously,” and she hung up. (She was very nice and this was totally out of character, so no worries there.) I went around to the various rooms, warning people that I was closing up because of flooding and they had 10 minutes to save their work. And then did it again for 5 minutes. And then started shutting off lights. And finally had to tell one group of guys that I didn’t care if they lost their online game, I was closing NOW because I wasn’t going to get electrocuted waiting for them to finish, and if they didn’t shut down immediately, I was calling campus police. They finally left, after promising to report me to my boss because — I kid ye not — “this lab is 24/7 and it doesn’t say anything about flooding.”

      We were closed for days. They had to rip out half of the carpet and even then the place stank for weeks. And that was the one and only time I had to threaten to call the cops on someone — wait, no, that’s a lie. But that’s a story for another time.

    5. RavensandOwls*

      I don’t have a help desk job (I work at a big university), but I had an older gentleman call my office the other day asking me to walk him through how to use Youtube to watch some old talks… it was cute.

    6. Anonymous Coward*

      I worked in a phone bank for an online gamer company, resetting passwords for people’s accounts. That was pretty much all I did for a while, so amusing interruptions to the routine — “Greeting, Please tell me your account name, answer your security question, one moment, check your email, test your new temporary password, now that you’re logged in make sure to reset it.” — stuck out.

      A woman calls in very flustered about forgetting her password. I assure her I can help; I just need her to answer the security question with the answer she set up at account creation.
      Me: “What is your favorite book?”
      She freaks. “OH NO, I don’t remember what I put!! I have a lot of favorite books.” (this is also true of pets, apparently)
      Me: “Well, if you were setting it up today, what would the answer be?” (usually the first or second answer here is the right one, and then I’d ask a secondary question for further verification)
      Her: “Ummmm…. I might have said The Bible.” (it was! I was just about to ask the second question, when I got, in quick succession–)
      “Or I might have said The Koran. Or I might have said Gor.”

      …Interesting grouping there, lady.

    7. animaniactoo*

      I am often the go-to tutor/explainer/whateverhaveyou for my department.

      Many many many years ago work I worked with an art director who hadn’t transitioned to the digital age, so she’d create layouts with printouts of digital assets and we’d execute them for her digitally. After trying to explain the difference between vector artwork and raster* in terms of what would scale up without losing quality, I finally told her that the files on a licensor’s website that ended with “.eps” would not pixelate and she could pull them to use easily.

      So, one day, she walks over to me with a printout of a “.eps” asset that she’s used the photocopier to enlarge 550%. Predictably, it looks like crap and is pixelated to all hell. She says “I thought you told me if it was .eps, it wouldn’t pixelate”.

      *If you’re not familiar with this, raster images are drawn in the computer pixel by pixel and every pixel is defined, so when you enlarge it, it just multiplies the number of pixels mathematically which results in extra squares of the wrong color when it can’t tell which direction a curve is going in. Vector takes two or more points and mathematically describes the relationship between them (straight line, rectangle, arc, oval), and then fills pixels to follow that shape, adjusting as you change size so that it is most closely following the described-to-it area.

    8. Rob Lowe can't read*

      Oh my gosh, so many from my days running the computer lab at a community center in the tiny regional town I lived in when I was in Peace Corps… Mostly they boil down to people being unaccustomed to the Web in general and unaware of constraints they might face as latecomers to it. “But my name is John. I want my email address to be john@[whateverdmain].com. Why won’t [whateverdomain] let me get that one?” I also had a lot of kids who were astonished that they couldn’t just type the questions from their homework into a Google and get the correct answer with no additional thinking required, but I think my current students in the U.S. are equally frustrated by this reality. :) My favorite instance of this was when a kid came in with an assignment to talk to someone who had lived through [historical event only 20 years in the past] to learn more about that period in history. Google was, predictably, no help when she typed in the question verbatim. But when I took her to my boss’ office, they ended up having a lovely, hour-long discussion about Boss’ experience growing up during [historical event]. That kid became one of our center’s most frequent visitors and regularly admonished her friends that “The internet does not know everything.”

    10. Red Reader*

      We actually recently had a clinician email our IT help desk because he got asked by my team to provide further documentation for a visit and he didn’t think that was appropriate. I’m not in IT, obviously, but I really would’ve liked to see their reaction to that ticket request :-P

  204. Amberrr*

    I had a mock interview today, to train my interviewing skills. One of the interviewers at the end said he thought I did great with interviewing, and even said that his company is opening new offices and that around April I should send him my resume with a note saying “this is how we met, remember who I am” that kind of thing, because he doesn’t know what positions he has opening up but might be willing to interview me for real!! I still have another year of school left so I’m not sure if he’s looking for summer people or full-time, but I guess I could certainly email him in March and ask him. Who knows. Maybe once my skills are more refined at the end of my degree, I could try again?!

    I’m just like whaaat, I had no idea that doing mock interviews would land me connections this way. That’s cool! I think I need to start networking more now that I’m at my new campus. At my old campus there weren’t a lot of opportunities, but there’s a ton going on up here.

  205. Ghost Light*

    I work in customer service at a venue that holds our own events and manages our own ticketing to those events, and also provides ticketing services to other venues. I have been here about 7 months. There are a large amount of people who work selling tickets to all venues by phone, a smaller group who work with people purchasing ticket packages to our main venue, and an even smaller group who work in the box office of our main venue. People who work at one level also occasionally work in the department(s) “below” their level as needed. Each level up is considered a promotion and comes with a raise. All three departments are located in the venue’s building, and sometimes we will be moved from one department to another within a shift based on relative need for staff that changes throughout the day.

    I have consistently gotten excellent feedback from my supervisors in all three departments, and moved up from the first level to the third more quickly than I have seen anyone else do in my time here. I recently got another raise and my big manager talked to me about the possibility of moving from part time to full time since I already work almost 40 hours a week and our busy season is coming up.

    But, the last 3-4 weeks I have been scheduled in the call center almost exclusively, even when we have events at our venue and the staffing needs for the box office are especially high. My supervisors have been really open with me and my coworkers with feedback about things we are doing well and things that we need to work on. I haven’t gotten anything negative recently, but I can’t help but feel like this is a reflection on my work. No one else who works at my level, the highest, has been scheduled in the lowest level as frequently as I have these weeks. We just got a new schedule, and still I am mostly working on the phones during a week full of high demand events.

    Should I bring this up with my managers? If I do talk to anyone, I will talk to the main manager who makes the schedule and is also who hired me and talked to me about moving to chill time recently. I don’t have a problem with working on the phones, and I don’t necessarily even have a problem with working there so often (though the work in the other departments is more engaging and challenging, which I like better), but the sudden change with no explanation has been confusing and feels like some sort of unspoken judgement of my work. If there is a problem with my work in the other departments, I want to know so I can improve. I really like my job, but this has been stressing me out and I don’t know what, if anything, to do about it.

    1. CAA*

      I would ask about it. You might find out that they put you on phones because you’re more amazing than anyone else at that work, and they have no idea that you really prefer the other work.

  206. Just an anonymous vent, nothing to see here*

    Just needing to vent for a moment… I’ve been working on a special teapot design project for about 3 years and my role is finally coming to an end; I’ve delivered the redesigned handle and we’re about to launch the new pot. The old pot was made of chocolate, and not very good chocolate; we came up with a radically new pot design that kept what customers loved about the old design and got rid of what they hated. In fact, it’s not even a teapot anymore. Now it’s a teacup. We are super excited about it, as are the tea experts we’ve been working with to come up with the new design. Met today with the person who is more or less in charge of the umbrella project under which this falls.

    “I don’t understand. This doesn’t look exactly like the teapot it’s supposed to replace.” Well no, because our customers didn’t like that teapot because it wasn’t what they needed. The teacup meets their needs.
    “But it wasn’t designed to match our teapot standards.” Yeah, because it’s a teacup. You even said, and have been saying all along, that the existing teapot wasn’t suitable and that we needed a radical new design that was aligned with what our customers needed, rather than what we’ve been offering for years and years.
    “So why doesn’t it conform to our standardized design?” Are you listening? At all? To us or yourself?

    What really torques me is that if this is a success, and I think it will be, he’s in charge of the overall project so the higher-ups only ever talk with him. He won’t claim credit but they’ll attribute any success to him anyway.

  207. RedFlagOrTheReddest*

    So I started at my job 8 months ago, and I am currently the MOST TENURED employee in my department. Everyone else quit and was replaced by new hires at some point in the last 8 months. And now the director of the dept is quitting, and she’s not being replaced. My new colleagues and I are just reporting to the CEO directly.

    Just confirm for me: this is a big, waving red flag, right? I need to start looking for another job? This has been a toxic environment for other reasons besides the high turnover, BUT I’ve had a lot of stress in my personal life and haven’t wanted to add job search stress. But…it’s time, right?

    1. CAA*

      Well, maybe.

      Is the director who’s leaving one of the key causes of the high turnover?
      Are they not replacing her due to budget constraints? Or is it because the CEO is concerned about the high turnover and wants to understand what’s going on in this department before hiring someone else?

      I’d try to find out the answers to those questions before starting an all-out job search after only 8 months. If things are about to take a turn for the better, you’d probably want to stay.

    2. Engineer Woman*

      I see this as an opportunity to make changes, lead and develop the department in a more positive way.
      As long as the CEO isn’t the reason for the toxicity, I believe this could be a good thing for your career.

  208. Junebug*

    Hello all – I have a very frustrating job managing up to my boss. She doesn’t respond to emails, texts or calls 90% of the time. When she does, it’s not in a timely manner. I feel like I’m being completely ignored and I’m not the only one within and outside the company that has noticed. I really like the work that I’m doing, but I’m starting to figure out that we have different philosophical ideas about the work that I am doing and that has been historically done. I also think that she generally doesn’t care about the company as a whole since she stepped into this role about 2 years ago (I started about 6 months ago). How do I communicate effectively with a boss who has seems to simply not care and doesn’t respond to me when I’m doing everything to communicate with her short of dropping by her house?

  209. Kristen*

    Does anybody else think the job market for teapot analysts is oversaturated? Of course I’m going by the large number of teapot analysts who write in to Ask a Manager. I’m surprised I don’t see it on any Top 25 Jobs lists. Is the field in decline?

    1. periwinkle*

      On the contrary – the Teapot Analyst field is booming! But it’s part of that hidden job market. The only way to find TA roles is to show up at an employer’s doorstep and refuse to leave until they interview you. The main qualification for TA is gumption!

      1. SophieChotek*

        And call the interviewer to make sure they received your resume (that was sent with a candy bar, flowers, and printed in Edwardian cursive in yellow ink?) Is that what you mean?

  210. Embarrassed*

    I’ve been at my job for 4 years, and I’m good at it. I have a reputation for good, thorough work. Until today when I escalated a major issue to my boss and boss’s boss, and spent hours working on it before realizing I had the date wrong and everything’s fine.

    Uuuuuuugggggghhhhh.

    By Monday I’ll see the humor in this, right? My bosses are laughing (with, not at), so that’s good… Ugh

    1. Drew*

      I once had an entire hour-long phone conversation with my mother and didn’t remember until I sat bolt upright in bed at 4 a.m. the next morning that it was her birthday. She laughed and said that chat was a far better present than my saying “happy birthday” would have been, especially as it kept getting funnier when she realized that I had totally spaced on what the day was.

      It happens. Sounds like your bosses aren’t sweating it, so no reason you should, either.

    2. Former Invoice Girl*

      I feel you.
      I once asked someone for 5 proofs of delivery by e-mail — their reply came with 1 attachment, containing (seemingly) one of the requested documents. I thanked the person and asked where the remaining four were — and I was mortified when they pointed out that all five were in the same attachment, all I’d have had to do was to scroll down (or look at the tiny window showing the number of pages on the ribbon)! I felt so stupid then, but I can most definitely laugh about it now.

      Like Drew says below — if your colleagues laugh with rather than at you, all will be fine.

  211. Job Hunter*

    I am job hunting. A recruiter connected with me a few weeks back about a potential position for which I may be a good candidate for and we then also had a short chat. I sent my resume afterwards as requested.
    The day before a long public holiday, I got an email from the recruiter: Happy holidays, just giving you an update. We should have more clarity on the role after the holiday and I’ll reach out to you once I have more info. I responded with a: Happy holiday also and looking forward to hearing from you.
    It’s been a week and a half after the holiday now, and traveling halfway around the world for the next couple weeks. Is it appropriate to follow up with recruiter, and to let recruiter know of my travel?
    Usually I don’t contact any recruiters for follow up since I believe if they want to move forward with me, they’ll contact me. Is this a the right approach? I don’t want don’t be a nuisance but wonder if I’m also too passive.
    Thank you for any feedback.

  212. Ruffingit*

    This week my workplace implemented rules for our work that are going to be near impossible to actually execute. It would also require working beyond the capacity a reasonable person could expect. My colleagues are going nuts about it and I’m…not. I’ve been in the working world over half my life now and I’ve realized it just isn’t worth it. The management of my job sucks and they aren’t going to change. So, it’s time to move along. I’m on vacation at the moment and will be spending a couple days of my time off doing hardcore job hunting.

    I guess I post this just to say that sometimes, it’s not worth the pain. Don’t get mad, get another job.

    1. SophieChotek*

      So are you going to quit before you have a new job or just stay with it until you can move on?
      Best of luck!

      1. Ruffingit*

        Not going to quit before I have something else lined up. Can’t afford that and wouldn’t want to do that even if I could afford it. Easier to get a job when you already have one.

        I guess my post was really more about just letting go of workplace nonsense. I have some co-workers who just freak out over this and I’m over here thinking “Eh, I could see this train coming long before I heard the whistle. Time to get off the tracks.”

  213. Bee*

    A little late to the party, but would appreciate some advice. I’ve been at my job for nearly 2 years, and I really enjoy it. Great co-workers, interesting work, but intense and underpaid. My current manager was first my coworker and we have the same level of experience. She’s great and will be a wonderful manager… In a few years. I feel out group is largely managed my group rule and there are no advancement or mentoring opportunities. I like what I do and I haven’t been there that long, but I feel frustrated. Things are so fast paced and I take on a big range of projects, which I like, but it’s also exhausting to churn out high volume, high quality work without support. What should I do and where to start?

    1. Allypopx*

      Start by identifying what it is you need. You say you don’t have support – if you did have support, what would that look like? What areas do you feel need more attention? If you feel like you’re burning out (which is what it sounds like to me) what can management do to help? Be specific and realistic – what steps would you like your manager to take?

      And then talk to her. Particularly if she’s new to management, she won’t necessarily have the intuition to know that you’re frustrated or where those frustrations are coming from. Have a direct, open dialogue about what you’re looking for and what is making you unhappy, and offer constructive solutions.

  214. Lionheart26*

    I was thinking recently about job prospects for new grads, and I wondered….. Are there truly no jobs out there? Or are there no jobs in the industry they studied? I’m not trying to stir the proverbial pot here, I’m legitimately interested.

    In my own case, when I graduated (granted this was 12 years ago) I didn’t even look at jobs in my field first. I knew it was a tough field to crack, particularly at that time of year. So I took a fulltime job in an inbound call centre. Not very glamorous, but after 5 years of study and part-time work, it felt so good to be turning up to an office at 9 every day. The work was easy, so I had plenty of energy in the evenings to apply for jobs. I did lots of interviews, and was able to turn down jobs that weren’t quite right, because I already had a steady income. Eventually, after about 8 months, I landed a terrific job.

    Conversely, a friend I graduated with only looked for jobs in our field. After a few months she was desperate and took on an entry level job with a terrible salary. The company was awful and she was miserable, but she stuck it out for 2 years.
    She thought I was crazy for settling for such a lowly job after 5 years of study, but I still look back and think I made the better decision.

    So as I said, not stirring, genuinely curious, do young graduates have a hard time finding ANY work? Or just the right kind of work? And why don’t more young people approach entering the work force the way I did?

    1. writelhd*

      I feel that my husband did this (got an entry level and somewhat tedious professional job but one that wasn’t his field) out of college in 2008, a TERRIBLE time to be graduating, (after struggling for a year and just barely supporting himself through online tutoring websites while blowing through all his savings) and worked there for several years while taking masters classes in his desired field. That job did give financial stability, bought a house, saved some retirement, etc, but ultimately, I don’t know if he’s better off for having done so, because although he did get a job in his field after the masters degree, that firm closed own after just two years and he’s been looking ever sense for something else, taking a very low level job on the way just to survive (and not lose the house). The fact that his education is old now may in fact be working against him, as he’s still having to look at relatively low-experience openings in his field (and there aren’t many) and is competing against fresh graduates when he does so.

      By contrast, *I* got extremely, mind-blowingly lucky. I didn’t get a job in the exact field I wanted out of college, but I scored an internship in a tangential field that I’ve ended up liking probably better than I would have liked the one I thought I wanted, that turned into a real job that’s turned into a really fulfilling profession that could continue to grow in a lot of different directions if I wanted it to. I’ve only been here 6 years but those 6 years have put me so far forward in the direction I want to go, imagine having taken a detour for a few years first! But I recognize that having the right door open at the right time to start all this (and it not turning out to be a door that was going to shut down in a year or hide a crazy boss or dysfunctional workplace behind it or what have you) was largely amazing good luck.

      1. Allypopx*

        This is a really good example that so much of it is luck. So LionHeart, I wouldn’t say you objectively made the better choice than your friend – your choice just worked out better for you.

        After awhile it gets hard not to think of the whole thing as a crapshoot (I know it’s not).

        1. Lionheart26*

          That’s very true. It really is luck of the draw as much as anything else.
          I mentor young people as part of my role now, and so I am trying to think of the best way to advise them to get ahead. But you’re right, what was great for me may not be best for all.

      2. Lionheart26*

        I think too that both you and your husband were flexible, and took jobs outside your fields. It’s worked out well for you, but you had to take that leap. Do you think other graduates are just as open to new careers and opportunities as they arise?

    2. SophieChotek*

      As a graduate (2010) I truly had trouble finding ANY work, let alone in my field. My degree was so specialized that if I applied to something like admin or entry staff that just wanted a “BA” I am sure the hiring staff found people with better backgrounds and assumed I would fly to a job more closely aligned in my field as soon as I could.

      And when I say ANY work…I had difficulty even getting an hourly retail job…it took me about 4 months and 20 applications to even get a job at local coffee shop (that is like Starbucks, but isn’t.)

      I totally would have taken lower-entry jobs just for the experience, etc., even not in my field. Still would….as I continue to look.

      1. Lionheart26*

        ugh that sucks. and answers my question pretty well. I hope you find something awesome real soon.

      2. Rob Lowe can't read*

        This was my experience as well – it wasn’t just that I couldn’t get hired for a job related to my degree, I couldn’t even get anyone to hire me for an entry level position unrelated to my degree because everyone (I infer, based on questions they asked) thought I wanted a job in my field. Which I did…but more than that, I wanted to support myself and pay my bills. (I was asked regularly in phone screens and interviews why I wasn’t looking for a job in X field [by employers in other fields]. I was. There were very few jobs. Four months after graduating, in May 2008, I was interested in any job that was full time and paid at least minimum wage, because I was drowning.) My prolonged post-graduate unemployment had zero to do with a lack of willingness on my part, and everything to do with a combination of other factors: lousy job market in general, small job market in my desired field to begin with, and that I apparently lacked the skills to appropriately convey/convince employers how my field-specific internship experiences translated to other fields.

  215. Allypopx*

    I think the fact you graduated 12 years ago matters here. I graduated high school in 2010 and had friends finishing their undergrad and even graduate degrees and only being able to find jobs in food service in retail. This pushed me into taking time off before college to get work experience, because I could see that was potentially more valuable in that climate than a degree. I worked my way into a full time job and am just now doing my undergrad.

    I’ve been in a position to hire for the last 3ish years and I can say that while it’s getting better, new grads are still competing for lower level jobs with people with more experience who lost momentum in their careers during the recession and are still taking entry level work, but have more experience, making them more hirable.

    There arent necessarily a lot of jobs available that let you show up at 9 everyday, and I don’t know a lot of people who would take that at the expense of experience in their field even if the latter was more erratic and low paying.

    Some degrees are more marketable than others, some fields are more stable, the economy is better, but job hunting 12 years ago and job hunting in the last 8 years are two very different experiences.

  216. writelhd*

    ARG. I know it’s late, but I just have to express my sadness. Husband applied for a whole string of job postings two weeks ago that were good fits for him. Even put together thoughtful applications while he was sick. Still no callbacks on any of them, and one of them, the one he was the best match for and is exactly what he wants to do and has even gotten interviews for before at other companies, just reposted their opening again, indicating they don’t like any of their applicants enough to interview. I just don’t get why not! I know it’s so hard to get the full picture and you have to move on mentally, but it’s very hard to move on mentally when you have nothing to move on to, and have encountered these same disappointments for two years now.

    Just asking the hiring gods for some good luck for a change.

    2. Colette*

      I know it’s frustrating and discouraging, but it might help if you can detach a little more. Two weeks is nothing – I haven’t yet started the one thing I was going to do two weeks ago, because stuff happened.

      And jobs get reposted for many reasons – automatically every X days until someone is hired, because they have some good candidates but want more, because person Y was out of the office and person Z didn’t want it to get stale. Job hunting is discouraging enough, don’t look for more reasons to be discouraged.

      Is he applying for jobs he’s 100% qualified for? Some people have better luck applying for stretch jobs.

      Anyway, I hope his luck turns around.

  217. Allypopx*

    Small rant: When you work in a historical building, it will break. And it will only break on days the facilities director is not working. And you will have to become MacGyver and figure out how to secure the door with a putty knife. And you will be sad.

    1. Delta Delta*

      Or! You will feel like a hero for figuring out a way to get the door shut and you will marvel at your cleverness.

  218. Anonyby*

    Man, I completely forgot to check here yesterday since it was my day off! Hopefully someone sees this. :) I’ve got a bit of a vent, and a question.

    Vent: I’ve had a rough patch with a coworker this week. We’ve talked this out so I’m less annoyed with her than I was earlier in the week… but there’s still plenty we aren’t seeing eye-to-eye on. Like on Monday I came in and found she had given my desk to a contractor’s assistant. Ugh. Yes, we have very little space and she’s paying for desk space…but she already has a desk. At the other office. And mine doesn’t have my name on it because I don’t have a name placard. (Which honestly shouldn’t be an argument because there’s a contractor who has a desk that’s definitely his, but he’s in the same boat with not having a name placard to put up.)

    And now for the question: What are your opinions on using company printers to print out pictures & the like to decorate a cubical?

    1. Chaordic One*

      I’ve never heard of using company printers to print out pictures to decorate a cubical. OTOH, I’ve printed out and pinned up a lot of cheat sheets to help me with my work.

      Another thing that I would do, would be to print out temporary name plates for all of the new employees when they first got hired. I would just use Word and adjust the type up to a (I think it was a 54 pt. font). Then when it was printed out, I would fold the paper into a little triangle-shaped thing and tape it so that it could stand up. Or else just print one out and fold it so that it would slide into the name plate holder.

      1. Anonyby*

        I’m mostly looking to decorate my cubical in ways that give it a personal presence, but are things that I wouldn’t get upset about if they were messed up or thrown away. My mom also had a few pictures & sayings posted around her desk that she definitely didn’t print at home, but the more I think about it, I’m not entirely sure that printing them at work is “best practice”.

        Yeah, temporary name plates absolutely would not fly at this office. It’s super-high-end and optics are everything.

    2. Freya UK*

      You’re probably not “supposed” to – but I have before and I would again. I like to personalise my workspace and if it keeps an employee a happy camper it’s a pretty cheap and innocuous way of doing so.

  219. PepperVL*

    Late to the party but…

    I’ve been reading a lot of AAM over the past few months because I wasn’t making enough money at my job and I wanted a new one. Well, as I job searched with no luck, I realized that I really like my job and would have been happy to stay if I made more. So using Alison’s advice I talked to my big boss in early January.

    And I got a 25% raise!

    It was on my paycheck yesterday.

    And in addition, I was also named employee of the month for January, which came with a Visa gift card and a good parking spot, so clearly giving my boss the opportunity to keep me was the right choice!

  220. M*

    Has anyone ever experienced retaliation from someone higher up for going to HR about a question/concern? What did the retaliation look like for you?

  221. Woman of a Certain Age*

    This is a vent about weird job skill combinations. I’m feeling a bit desperate and have applied for several jobs that I’m not really crazy about because I kind of feel like I need to be doing something and have some money coming in.

    About 3 months ago I interviewed for a Rental Agent/Customer Service job at a car rental agency located at a small airport. The job was only part-time, but the deal breaker was that they expected the employee to wash the cars in the airport parking lot. I could see driving them through a carwash, but standing out in the parking lot in this below zero winter weather with a hose, and at my age, was a deal breaker for me. So I sort of feel like maybe I was being too picky.

    Anyway, I recently applied for a Ticket Agent/Customer Service job at the customer service counter of an airline at the same airport. The interview was “meh” and then they tell me that one of the duties was that I might have “de-ice the airplane.” Like, after helping customer board their flight, go out on the runway and spray the plane with a hose full of de-icing fluid from a ladder positioned above the plane. How would you dress for a job like that anyway? I know I’m old, but some days I really feel like I’ve lost it.

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