open thread – February 17-18, 2017

by Alison Green on February 17, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. Murphy*

    So I think my office may have forgotten to invite me to my own baby shower?

    About 2 weeks ago, our admin asked me about some tentative dates for throwing me a shower. She gave me two possible dates which were both fine. We briefly discussed food allergies/preferences, etc. That’s the last I heard about it. Was looking at my boss’s calendar and two weeks from now he has “Murphy’s shower” on his calendar, but no one has confirmed date/time with me. Our conference room is reserved at both possible times that I was given, one saying “HOLD – Murphy’s shower” (which usually means tentative) and the other just says “HOLD”.

    I’m not sure if I should ask someone, or pretend that I don’t know anything? (I’m assuming it’s not a surprise, since admin and I discussed it. The last shower we had was definitely not a surprise for the guest of honor.) They have a history of not including me in things, but I feel like they’d include me in my own shower!

    1. Penny*

      Are the dates still far off that they just haven’t finalized the party date? Or are they slow to send out invites? My work is pretty notorious for sitting on party dates for a long time and not telling anyone til a couple days before.

      1. Murphy*

        It’s 2 weeks from today. It wouldn’t be on people’s calendars unless an invite was sent out. (I checked and it’s on a few other people’s calendars too.) So if an invite was sent out, I didn’t get it.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      I’d ask Admin (that you had the original conversation with). It shouldn’t be awkward since they brought it to you first, right? :)

    4. fishy*

      That’s weird. If they asked you about dates and it’s on your boss’s calendar, that would be a pretty bad surprise. I’d just follow up with the admin asking if it’s been officially scheduled.

    5. Maple*

      They may very well be in a big circle of “of course someone has told Murphy, it’s FOR Murphy!” , thinking someone else has taken care of it. I don’t think it would be weird to shoot an email to whoever you talked about dates with that just says something like “Putting my schedule together for the next couple weeks, did we end up with a firm date for the shower?”

      2. Teapot Librarian*

        Not work, but I had an organization schedule something for me without checking my schedule. I learned about it when the email announcing it was sent. I had a conflict. I almost did what Gandalf the Nude mentions below; instead I left my conflicting event early, busted my tail to get there, and then pulled the martyr card about how I had to leave my conflicting event because no one had thought to check with me.

        1. Hilorious*

          I ended up on the morning of saying “hey, should I have something on my calendar today?” and they were very apologetic. It was mostly because I usually planned stuff at that office.

          I really didn’t mind. It was endearing that they were so hopeless without me ;-)

      4. IndianaAnna*

        This happened to me too! I provided lunch coverage at a bank. I started my shift covering the woman in the detached drive-thru and then I would proceed inside the bank when she returned from lunch to cover the other tellers’ breaks. I brought and consumed my own lunch while working the drive-thru and then when I got inside I found out they had a whole spread for me. They all assumed someone else had told me about the lunch. I was too full to eat anything!

      5. Artemesia*

        A friend of mine was going to be late to a dinner we were doing before a concert because his department was doing an event honoring him for his leadership of a particular program for many years. He texted me just before the dinner saying he would be there on time (we were going to go ahead and order tapas and get plenty so his lateness would not be an issue)

        The department made a big deal and cleared the date with him, but then the person who was in charge of planning it, just didn’t do anything. When he casually mentioned it that morning to her, he got a blank look.

    7. Gandalf the Nude*

      I’m just sadistic enough to not say anything and hope they don’t invite me so that I can lord it over them for eternity. “So, did y’all have fun at my baby shower WITHOUT ME?”

      2. Murphy*

        Haha, that’s what my husband says I should do, and I am tempted! It’s during working hours in the conference room right outside my office area, so presumably someone would come get me, so I wouldn’t actually miss it.

        Though the funny thing is (I’m salaried nonexempt) there’s a work event earlier in that week that will keep me more than 8 hours, meaning that I actually could leave early on that Friday afternoon…which would actually lead to me missing the shower.

      3. OtterB*

        Many years ago, my office held a baby shower lunch for a coworker who wasn’t there – because she had the baby a little early. We were bringing together people from multiple offices and were afraid the word wouldn’t get to everyone if we tried to cancel it in those pre-email days. We told her we had a great time. :-)

        1. DevManager*

          I missed the baby shower at my office for my first because it was scheduled the same day as my 36 week appointment and I was held over at that while they determined if I got to go home or went straight to be induced.

          The generous gift card came in handy buying preemie-sized clothes and diapers.

        2. Workaholic*

          My team threw a baby shower for a male team member. He missed it because his wife went into labor 4 hours before it was scheduled.

        3. Lizard*

          I’ve now been to 2 baby showers for coworkers who had their babies prematurely the night before the shower. (The babies were all OK). We went ahead with the shower both times and everyone had an excellent time.

    8. The Rat-Catcher*

      I think this might actually create an easier situation to ask than in other party-type settings, because there isn’t the question of “maybe they didn’t want to invite me…”
      I don’t know how much of the invite details you are able to see, but maybe they are discussing a group gift for you or something like that? And someone was supposed to invite you separately but forgot? (Yes, that does still raise the question of how you forget to invite the guest of honor, which I really just find befuddling.)

    9. Anon Imus*

      Several years ago, my company had a big Saturday event that was not for my team but was “all hands who can be there on deck.” Unfortunately (for them), this event conflicted with a family wedding for which my time off had been approved and on the shared work calendar for months.

      It was not a comfortable meeting when the company owner and the CEO both met with me to give me my schedule of events for that day and I had to explain that I was going to be out of state. Apparently neither of them had thought to check the calendar. They had to scramble to change some of the marketing for this event at the last minute, because they had already written up descriptions of those events before talking to me about them.

      And I got a VERY good lesson in why it’s important to be proactive about getting your approved time off documented.

    10. Misquoted*

      Is it possible that they put it on everyone else’s calendars, thinking you wouldn’t see it, but are planning to just bring you into the conference room (under the guise of discussing something work-related), so it’s a surprise (ish) after all?

      1. Murphy*

        Perhaps? But we check eachother’s calendars all the time. And there’s no one event that people were invited to, they just put it on their own calendars. But if that’s the case, then someone should really schedule a fake meeting with me, because my afternoon is wide open for someone to schedule a real one.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          That’s what people did at OldJob for surprise things. We’d enlist the training department or a VP to help with the subterfuge sometimes!

          1. Red Reader*

            It was a little fishy I was invited to a last minute emergency meeting for the project I was managing, the day before I went on leave for my wedding and honeymoon. :) (It was totally a surprise wedding party that I saw coming a mile away.)

    11. Lionheart26*

      That happened to me last month! Coworkers organised a birthday morning tea in the break room but forgot to invite me. I happened to walk in to make a coffee right as they were singing “tooo yoooouuu”…….. Turns out when I didn’t show up they decided to cut the cake and sing without me! It was quite funny really.

    12. C in the Hood*

      Maybe the original invite to everyone has the plans about your gift on it & they didn’t want you copied on it? Honestly, I wouldn’t worry too much about it.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yeah, I think it was probably something like this. They had an email discussion *about* the party that shouldn’t have included you, but they forgot to bring you in for the actual invite.

    13. MissGirl*

      My job forgot to invite me to my going away party. They had it on a day I didn’t work mornings. I walked in, everyone bursted out laughing, and pointed to the half-eaten potluck in the back. I remember that party more than any other.

  2. Frogger*

    I am an HR Professional in Ontario Canada, currently working for one location but hoping to expand to other locations within my mid-sized city. This would involve driving to other locations at least a few times a month but since I’m the first one in this position I can’t be sure. The furthest location from my home location (with my office) is 18km away but they are all in different directions so the furthest distance between locations is 28km. Should I ask for mileage reimbursement and if so how much? Should I calculate based on my very inexpensive vehicle and if so, how do I do that?
    TL;DL How much mileage re-imbursement do you get and how do I calculate how much I should ask for?
    Thanks in advance.

    1. Murphy*

      You should definitely ask for mileage. Does your company (or companies, I’m not sure) already have a mileage reimbursement policy? Many already do. If not, you can maybe look up other policies and ask for something comparable.

    2. Chicken may*

      I’m in the US so I’m sure it’s different, but when I claim mileage I get .54 a mile which is what is dictated by the IRS.

    3. Blue*

      I’d ask for it. There will be a number that the province uses to reimburse their employees (google will find it) which is a good baseline to start at. Also, don’t calculate it based on your particular vehicle, because mileage should address wear and tear as well (not just gas), which is impossible to calculate based on an individual car.

      Good luck!

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      The government reimbursement rate is usually considered the most fair method. It’s supposed to include depreciation and other expenses, like insurance. I googled “Canadian mileage reimbursement rate” and the first result was the CRA rate, so it seems like you have the same standard as we have with the GSA here in the US. We put in for any travel that isn’t part of our normal commute, basically anything that has us going anywhere but our office. And I usually calculate the route that I took on Google Maps after the fact, because it’s easier, but the gold standard is noting your car’s odometer reading before and after the trip.

      Good luck!

      1. LuvThePets*

        The gold standard used to be the odometer reading, but in some industries, that has changed. In many non-profit organizations, some government program managers have decided to require Google Maps or Yahoo maps etc, as that eliminates paying for any extraneous potential mileage that might slip in that could be personal use… lunch, stopping for gas or a Starbucks, etc. Mileage reimbursement has become quite the hot button issue!

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Wow. If I have to stop for gas or lunch because of offsite work, then as far as I’m concerned those errands are now work errands! I can understand requiring an explanation for anything that’s a mile or two over the mapped distance, but geez, I’ve added close to that just going up and down huge parking garages on either end of my trip!

    5. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I’m reasonably certain that Canada and the US both have a standard reimbursement or tax deduction rate for mileage. In the US it’s $0.54/mile. Do not attempt to make up your own rate.

      1. the gold digger*

        I think that is the rate (in the US) that the IRS will allow, but your employer can reimburse at a lower rate, which I think it tacky and cheap but yes, it is done. Mine reimburses at about 41 cents a mile.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Sure, but I’d start with requesting the standard mileage rate, not trying to make one up out of thin air.

          1. Whats In A Name*

            Yes, also think that pointing to an established recommendation has a higher likelihood of getting approved.

        2. Mallory Janis Ian*

          My university reimburses at 42 cents per mile. I was surprised to learn that the IRS rate is higher, because they reimburse at the IRS rate for meals and lodging, just not for mileage.

      2. Blue*

        Don’t quote me on this, but I think employers can set their own rates, and that the government one is just “The limit on the deduction of tax-exempt allowances that are paid by employers to employees who use their personal vehicle for business purposes” (gov of canada). So maybe it’s a taxable benefit if you go over?

        I don’t actually know what that means, but Frogger you don’t have to figure this all out ahead of time to bring it to your employer/client.

          1. De Minimis*

            This is a huge pain for me every year. They change the rate, I post an updated voucher form for staff and program participants [we reimburse a lot of people for travel–my org’s mission is teacher training so we have a ton of conferences throughout the year.] People rarely will use the new voucher form until late in the year and I keep having to double check and recalculate mileage [it’s a spreadsheet but I have to verify everything with an adding machine.]

    6. EngineerInNL*

      Most companies I worked for (also in Canada) just used whatever the Provincial Government’s reimbursement rate was, you can just look it up on the website and it usually updates quarterly I think

    7. Catalyst*

      The CRA rate is a maximum rate, and many companies do not actually reimburse that amount. I would see if the company has a policy about this as many do. If you are an independent contractor, I would not charge the highest rate for two reasons. First is that the company may find this to be too high, and second, it is actually a tiered system. It is .54 for the first 5000 kms driven in a year and .48 after that. It is much easier to pick a lower rate such as .50 and charge that so you do not have to be concerned about the kms. This way, you would have to drive approximately 11,000 kms before it became an issue. If you feel you will be driving more than that, then I would lower your rate accordingly.
      Hope that is helpful.

    8. I Heart HR Because I Am HR*

      If those other locations are considered ‘work locations’ and so going to and from them is part of your regular commute (and it just happens to be that you are commuting to a variety of locations), then the mileage generally isn’t reimbursable. But, if your home base is Location A and you then occasionally visit Locations B, C and D, then generally the mileage above and beyond your commute (if you come from home) or between Location A Locations B, C, D would be reimbursable.

  3. Fawn*

    I’ve been in my contract position for a little under 4 years at a public university. In that time, I’ve only received COL increases that haven’t even kept up with inflation. I’ve struggled for more than 6 months to get my manager to take a second look at my salary, which is about $15 000 less per year than comparable colleagues.

    Recently, I’ve learned that one of those comparable colleagues is leaving, and I will be asked to pick up about 75% of her slack. This could, potentially, lead me into her vacated full-time position with a higher salary, but no guarantee.

    I’m trying to figure out how to navigate the increased workload without undermining my months of salary discussion. I want to be a team player and pick up the extra work, but, frankly, I’m fed up with being underpaid for so long. Anyone have any advice? Is this just a suck it up type of situation?

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Hell no, it’s not a suck it up situation. Being a team player does not come with the expectation of being a doormat. I think that if you’re asked to pick up her slack, you should be very forthright with your justified expectation that you will be advanced to full time and full salary. Being underpaid is one thing, but if anybody even suggests that you should take on all the slack of a departed full-time, full-salary colleague without a salary and position bump to competitive levels, that’s an insult and you should take it as one.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        I agree with TNMBOIS, and I would like to add that this sounds like one of those organizations that will pay you as little as possible until you find a better-paying position, at which point they’ll try to find someone else who will tolerate being underpaid. You should assume that they’ll keep underpaying you, and you should look for better pay elsewhere. (And DO NOT accept any counteroffer, as I wouldn’t trust a place that underpaid me by so much for so long.)

        By the way, they didn’t ask you to bid on how low a salary you’d accept, did they?

      2. turquoisecow*

        I agree with the Scientist also. If you’re getting a lot more work to be done, it’s definitely reasonable to ask for a lot more money. Team player is great, but there’s a point where you have to look after your own needs, and you shouldn’t feel bad for demanding such from your own employer. If, for whatever reason, they refuse, it’s time to job hunt and get out.

    2. Kate*

      I used to work in HR at a private university. At the very least, you should be eligible for extra duty pay until your colleague’s position is filled. It’s going to be hard to get your salary adjusted in the middle of your contract, but a temporary increase (regular salary + extra duty pay [that’s what it’s called among HR]) may be easier to negotiate. From there, you can work on getting a permanent increase. You have more leverage right now that usual, so use that to your advantage.

    3. Whats In A Name*

      Definitely not a “suck it up” situation. But based on the fact that you are contracted with a public university you may need to ask some questions and approach a raise in pay from a different angle.

      If your state government or even your university has a moratorium on merit increases that allow for COL raises only you’ll need a change in status or change in title to get a raise. It’s poopy but it’s the reality (I know, because I had to do it for a mere $2K per year and our moratorium didn’t allow for COL increases either – and lasted 5 years). Addition of duties alone wasn’t enough for the pay bump, they had to come up with a new title as well.

      I would approach your boss again about the salary bump, ask about a title change being a factor in the ability to increase salary and then work with her together to see if your position can permanently take over the duties (as opposed to temporarily while they look to fill) and come up with a new position title together. The more proactive you can be in these type of scenarios the more likely your chance of getting what your are looking for salary and position wise.

    4. azvlr*

      Wait! So as a contractor, you’re getting paid less than your FT counterparts. And having to pay your own payroll taxes and medical out of this?! If this is the case, you should feel even more justified asking for a raise. Good luck!

  4. katamia*

    I work from home making basic teapots and teapots with various add-ons. I’m really good at making teapots with one particular add-on: wings. It is a huge pain to make winged teapots, and while I do make more for every winged teapot I finish, I’m at the point now where the extra money I get for making a winged versus basic teapot is not enough. I’m turning into a wreck trying to get everything done.

    But I’m really good at making winged teapots. My boss (who I’ve never met–she’s in another state, so I’d be doing this over email) is sending me more and more winged teapot assignments and fewer and fewer basic/other add-on teapots. I’m looking for suggestions on how to ask to stop entirely or at least cut way back on the number of winged teapots versus basic teapots that I make. I can’t look for work at a different teapot company because the ones that pay enough proudly proclaim on their websites that winged teapots are their specialty, so in the short term, I can’t leave.

    (For the record, the winged teapot is more difficult to use–it’s hard to keep ahold of [think the Golden Snitch], and I honestly don’t know why anyone even wants the wings because they make the product worse even though they sound really good if you’re not that familiar with teapots.)

    1. mskyle*

      Can you charge more for the winged teapot? I.e. raise your winged teapot rate while keeping your regular teapot rate the same?

      1. katamia*

        I do get paid more for winged teapots already. It’s just not enough, and at this point I hate doing them so much that I’m not sure they’d pay how much I’d “need” to want to keep doing them.

        1. designbot*

          I would put it out that you’re adjusting your rates for winged teapots, and make it on the high side of what you’d be comfortable with–and if you get fewer or no requests for them, that’s part of the point. If you charged $50/winged teapot before and now you charge $80/winged teapot, but the number of these you’re having to do go down by 40% then you come out even. If the requests go down by 80% then you’ve fulfilled the goal of shifting to more regular teapots.

          2. Koko*

            Yes! Use your price to control the demand. Cities charge for parking downtown as much to limit demand as they do for the revenue. Fewer people will drive and compete for the parking the more it costs, and those who do park will park for shorter amounts of time the more it costs. Those who are willing to pay for parking thus have a more pleasant experience because it’s easier to find a spot when there’s fewer cars competing for the spaces.

    2. fposte*

      When you say “extra money,” do you mean you’re a 1099 contractor, or are you talking about additional hours? Do you know if you’d still be of the same use to the company if you didn’t make the winged teapots?

      If you’re an independent contractor and you’re confident they’d still want your services, it would seem pretty straightforward to negotiate this (assuming that your current contract is up for renegotiation) and put a ceiling on the number of winged teapots you’ll contract to produce.

      If you’re not sure whether they’d want you if you’re only doing wingless, whether you’re an employee or a contractor I think you need to make some inquiries, which can be a little more overt if you’re an IC. “Hey, we’re moving a lot toward the winged teapots, which I hadn’t anticipated. Has that become the only viable role for our arrangement, or is there a possibility of shifting it back to more wingless teapots?”

      1. katamia*

        1099 contractor. I’m paid per teapot–the base rate for a basic teapot plus a rate bump for wings, pretty spiral designs, etc.

        I have no idea if they’re just getting more requests for winged teapots recently (meaning that everyone is doing more) or whether they’re going “Oh, Katamia’s good with winged teapots, so we’ll redirect more of them her way.”

        1. Newby*

          Have you asked to set a cap on the number of winged teapots? Say that you understand that the winged teapots are an important part of the job, but you can only commit to doing X per week like you did in the beginning and that Y is too many but you are still happy to do more regular teapots?

          1. katamia*

            I haven’t. It hasn’t really become a problem until the last month or so, but it’s already having a pretty negative effect on me, and I’m still kind of so relieved to have this job (it’s really not great, but my work history’s been rough for various reasons, some of which are my fault and some of which aren’t) that I don’t really know how to talk about this sort of thing/make a request like this.

    3. Amarzing*

      Can you clarify why companies that are good at winged teapots wouldn’t want you – an extremely competent winged teapot maker?

      Okay, I think I understand, you want to make less winged teapots, NOT make more money. I think you have to consider leaving, though, if your company really pushes you to make more winged teapots, at least go somewhere else and make more money for it.

      From your explanation, it sounds not like you hate making winged teapots (although maybe you are getting into BEC mode with the winged teapots) you just are extremely stressed trying to get all these finicky time consuming winged teapots done. If another company gives you a more reasonable workload, or higher price-per-teapot, then why is that not an option?

      1. katamia*

        From the research I’ve done, it looks like a lot of the other companies consider winged teapots to be the “base” teapot, and some of them also include things that I’m paid extra for (like pretty spiral designs and whatnot) in their “standard” rate. I don’t mind doing the pretty spiral designs, but I also like being paid extra for them.

        This company is also very good on schedule flexibility–I can tell them I want to make 5 teapots one week, 2 the next, 8 the next, etc., and they won’t care, while it looks like a lot of other companies want people to commit to steadier hours (and the same days every week, which my current company doesn’t require). A family member is having surgery next month and I want to be able to help her out, so this isn’t a great time to decrease my schedule flexibility.

        2. Big Picture Person*

          Since you can specify how many you want to do per week, you could try changing how you specify what you will take on. Something like: Since winged teapots take more time to complete, I can only do 3 winged teapots this week, and 2 without wings. How would that be received? Also, are you locked in a contract for a specific length of time? If not, I would notify them that the rate I charge for winged teapots is going up. If they set the rate, then you should certainly be able to decide how many you do of each kind as long as the demand is there.

          1. katamia*

            I provide this information through their website, and there’s no room to specify specifically what kind of teapots I want to do–no notes field or anything, just a number for how many teapots I want to do on each day of the week.

            No specific contract, but they’re the ones who originally set the rate I agreed to back when I first started working with them. My parents have told me that this doesn’t mean I can’t negotiate/try to increase my rate, but some of their other advice is, as we often see, so out of whack that I’m not sure how much wiggle room I really have, although I’m starting to think I might have a little more than I originally did.

            1. Rusty Shackelford*

              I think in this case your parents are right – you can go back to the company and say “Since winged teapots actually take 50% more effort than regular teapots, I’m requesting $X+50% per winged teapot instead of the $X+20% I’m getting now.” However, if they set the rate, they may be unwilling to change it. I know my employer pays a certain rate for contractors, and if someone asked for more, they’d have to have a good reason, and we’d have to have no one available who would do it for the original rate.

    4. zora*

      How to stop getting requests for winged teapots: start screwing them up.

      I mean, not really, because unprofessional. But honestly, if you weren’t so good at making them, if your winged teapots started to suck, they would send you less….

      1. katamia*

        Yep. The quality actually has gone down in some way–I’ve missed a few deadlines for winged teapots, although not by so much that it’s caused a problem (I don’t think?). :( I hate missing deadlines, but because I don’t know exactly what I’m going to get each week, it’s hard for me to know how long things are going to take me. I could actually do a lot more teapots per week if I knew in advance that I was only going to get basic teapots/teapots with pretty spiral designs and not winged teapots–right now I’m working less than I could because I have to plan around maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe getting a winged teapot.

        1. turquoisecow*

          Well, that’s worth pointing out, if they haven’t noticed. Tell them that winged teapots take significantly longer and require more effort, and you and they have to factor that in to how many teapots you’re producing per week. If you’re creating 5 base teapots a day without an issue, but 4 winged teapots is going to be a hassle, then it’s worth it to a) ask for more compensation/time to complete winged teapots and b) ask for a cap on the number of winged teapots.

          If you are charging more for winged teapots already, it’s possible that they’re sending you those projects because you’re good at it AND they think you want the extra money. If you clarify the time and effort crunch – “if you’re going to send me winged teapot requests, please limit it to 3 a day, or 2 regular teapots and 2 winged teapots, or 5 regular and no winged” (or whatever) – then maybe you can come up with something that’s more manageable.

          1. zora*

            Yeah, this is all really good! You have to remember, just because you haven’t brought this up before, doesn’t mean you’re not allowed to now!

            It’s probably best to ask to set up a phone call with the person who usually sends you assignments and say “I want to touch base on how things are going.” And talk about a couple of different options: more pay for wings, a cap on the number of wings per day or week, etc. You can talk about a few different options and then work out with them which one is going to be best for everyone involved.

          2. Wheezy Weasel*

            +1 on framing the conversation around quality. They want you to deliver them on time and without mistakes, you want to deliver them on time and without mistakes, and you’ll need to adjust the price or the schedule/amount to compensate.

    5. Zombeyonce*

      Well heck, now I want a winged teapot! They sound adorable, if completely impractical.

      I’ve been trying to think of what real-world item could compare (to figure out what you’re actually making) but keep getting stuck on the image of cute little teapots with wings. :)

      3. SophieChotek*

        Here’s a teapot that sort of has wings…
        [will go into moderation I am sure]…links to follow…

  5. The Big L*

    I had my performance review this week and am having a hard time processing what happened. I got an excellent review and the most in terms of percentage that I could receive as a salary increase. So it was good in that way. 

    But my manager started off by asking me if I’m looking for a job! I was taken aback and admitted that while I’m not looking that the role is much more junior and that I long to do more higher level work. I asked her if it seemed like I was looking and she said no but that you ‘have to be happy’.

    She admitted there was a gap between the kind of work I can do and the kind of work I am doing. She mentioned that she would be supportive if I were to look for work in other parts of the company. At this second mentioning of me leaving my role I asked her if she wanted someone else in the role and she said “NO!” but this whole conversation left me very uneasy. 

    I have been here over a year and this isn’t the first time we’ve talked about my role and me wanting to do more. During the review I offered that I know it could take time but I could see myself working more with a few key members of her team but she didn’t really respond. She seemed concerned that I just don’t have the bandwidth to do more interesting work and do what I’m doing now. 

    She had asked her direct reports to come prepared with ideas for training so I brought this up and I told her I already have skills I’m not using so I’m unsure what would make sense and again she didn’t push training. She said given my role (largely administrative) that she can’t really think of any specific goals and I just left that alone. 

    I wonder if she just doesn’t like me and would like me to move on but I don’t think that’s it. I talked to one of her managers and she just thought she doesn’t think out of the box and “she’s crazy” but that’s little comfort. She is an odd person who is in meetings back to back every single day and does not have great relationships with anyone really so we often chalk it up to her being crazy. I do know we have people completing their degrees in our department and she has commented they will have to move on while I’m surprised she doesn’t want to keep talented people, perhaps that’s the way she thinks. Truthfully my company doesn’t build leaders from within, especially when it comes to the non-exempt staff. I’ve never seen a place like this. 

    A friend told me to just do the job I’m paid for at this point and maybe start thinking long term for myself. I guess that’s my option for now? Would appreciate any feedback you have. I came out of this feeling very dejected and disappointed. I actually even took the day off today to get away from the place. I guess I need to formulate some kind of plan for myself to move on eventually. Bizarre. Knowing her maybe I need to lower my expectations… Thanks. 

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Wow, it sounds to me like your boss knows that you can do more work for higher pay, but doesn’t have anything like that under her purview, and wants to see you get do the work you’re capable of for better pay. That’s a good thing! Are there positions she’s responsible for filling that would challenge you more and pay you better? Because I didn’t see any mention of that, and so there may not be anything she can do for you other than be supportive of you finding a better fit. And that she is encouraging you to do it internally is a positive indicator; if she didn’t like or value you, and was trying to be sneaky, she’d probably encourage you to leave the company.

    2. Antie*

      You are under-utilized on your current role and you have a manager who has offered to support you if you want a more challenging role in other parts of the company. Maybe her delivery was off, but this is great support from a manager.

      I have employees who have maxed out their career path with us. It is a kindness to let them know that their next step is elsewhere and that I will support them if that’s a choice they make.

    3. NW Mossy*

      One possibility is that this is a very awkward way of saying “I know you’re capable of more, but I don’t have any place I can promote you to and/or can’t give you more money, so I understand and will support you if you want to look elsewhere to advance your career.” A good boss will acknowledge that their area can’t always offer everything an employee might want to grow, and won’t try to clip your wings. I don’t know if that’s the case here, but it seems consistent with what you’ve described.

      2. The Rat-Catcher*

        I think NW Mossy has hit the nail on the head here. Managers don’t always know how to say “I know you can do more and you want to do more, and I want that for you too, but I don’t have a way to make it happen.” I’m currently an admin for a government agency. We’re Teapot Makers and the entry-level positions require a degree in some sort of dish making, and mine is in rice sculpture-making. The degree requirements are an accreditation standard which means that there is No Way Around It. Also because we’re in government, manager has no say in my salary either.
        So while she doesn’t want me to move on, she acknowledges that unless I want to do this job for the next 30 years or go back to school, it’s inevitable. Your manager may be in a similar bind, or maybe she has those positions but those people aren’t going anywhere any time soon.

      3. turquoisecow*

        That was my thought, too. She can tell you want to move up, and maybe can see as well as you do the opportunities at your current place, so is wondering if you’re already starting to look elsewhere.

        Kind of an awkward way to do it, but yeah.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It sounds like she was awkwardly trying to show you support. She gave you a great review and a salary bump, and that is all positive. But she also seems to recognize that you want bigger and more challenging things. It really does sound like awkward phrasing to me. A good manager WILL support someone who wants to grow in their career. If there’s nowhere for you to go in your current department or division, then it would be great if she supports you when you decide to look for something more in line with your skills.

      Keeping talented people is great, but good managers want to keep content people. If you told her you were really content with your current role, then that’s one thing and she should back off. But if you told her you have skills you’re not using, then I see this as more of a, “I respect your ambitions” than, “I don’t want you around.”

    5. Collie*

      So, this doesn’t as much help you now, but I think the best way to answer that question is that, while you’re not actively job searching, you like to keep your options open (unless you are actively job searching and you’re in a position where you feel sharing that information won’t hurt you). I’ve used this line in the past and employers in my experience have been pleased that I’ve been honest with them and even more pleased that it means I don’t intend to stagnate in my job. It implies that I’m looking for more challenging work, whether it’s in-company or outside. Plus, for me, it’s just true.

      Maybe the folks in your role previously didn’t stay longer than a year, so they’re trying to prepare for you leaving based on the history of this position.

    6. Lily in NYC*

      It seems to me like she was looking for reassurance that you aren’t leaving because she knows you are capable of more and is worried about losing you. Part of my job is admin and my boss is always paranoid that I’m going to leave because she knows I greatly prefer my non-admin duties, which have been drying up lately. And the goals thing is pretty normal – I don’t even have reviews any more because there’s really nothing more to say on the subject. Most managers are clueless when it comes to career development for admins. My last review three years ago: “just keep doing what you’re doing”.

    7. animaniactoo*

      It sounds like she’s happy to have you in the role, but recognizes it’s basically a dead end. So she’s telling you that she’s not going to sabotage your attempts to find something else and that it would be understandable from her end if you do that. Basically – she’s trying to help you develop up to the next level and give you a free pass to go off and do that without thinking that you’re going to jeopardize the job you currently have. That’s pretty much as great a setup as you can ask for. A good manager does not try to hold talented people – particularly people who are gaining education and training that can help them do and earn more – in a dead-end job just to have them on their staff.

      1. Channel Z*

        I agree with this interpretation, I think she is trying to say that she will be understanding when the time us right to move on but is happy with what you are doing now.

    8. LQ*

      I agree with everyone else that this doesn’t sound like a super weird conversation, maybe a little off on the delivery, but I think you’re looking at this a little backward. She is clearly aware that you are capable of more than you are doing. She’s offering to support you in that. (That’s what great bosses do!) Especially if your company doesn’t build leaders from within, I’d say, yes it’s time to look elsewhere, but you can do it knowing your boss will support you.

      If she’s helping people create learning plans, supporting them in getting that, recognizes that the company she’s with doesn’t promote from within for the kinds of jobs she manages? Then she’s an awesome boss. Encouraging people to move on is sometimes the right move.

      If there is no where for her to promote people to either she doesn’t have the power, those positions aren’t under her control, or the company just as a habit doesn’t do that? Then saying to people, go fly and be free is a good thing to do for them, even if it might not be the best for her.

    9. Tex*

      Maybe this is her attempt at trying to groom people for higher level positions, in which case take the opportunity for looking at another job within the company with her blessing. Long term managers are also judged on the number of people they taken spot.

    10. IvyGirl*

      I think that you really, really need to back off on thinking and stating that your manager “is crazy”. That is hurtful and unhelpful, as well as most likely inaccurate.

      It’s hard to have a good rapport with anyone who is in meetings all day. So – what have you done to bridge that relationship gap? Have you set up more frequent meetings for feedback and observation, or even just to bring her up to speed with what is going on?

      Have you brought any suggestions to improve things to her attention? Surely there are some ways for you to incorporate your “unused” skills into this workplace? Perhaps she is growing wearing of having to spell everything out for you, and is looking for you to display initiative?

      1. The Big L*

        I sense a lot of hostility in what you’re saying and your assumptions on what actions I’ve taken and what is possible in my work place are inaccurate. You also assume I have a lot of control in a culture where the non-exempt staff are treated like second-class citizens and children. If my senior level executive manager doesn’t communicate with me there is little I can do to force her as much as I’ve tried many things to adapt and get the information I need to manage my tasks.

        Hopefully your intention was to be helpful. The woman barely speaks to me – the day she spells everything out for me I’d probably fall out of my chair!

        1. IvyGirl*

          Nope, no hostility here. Just asking questions to get more of a sense of the dynamic in your workplace, much of which isn’t readily apparent in your original post. A manager of over 100 people and the main driver in meetings and workflow most likely will not be able to have much face time with direct reports. Can you see how labeling someone who is responsible for that much as “she’s crazy” is wrong, just because your interactions with her are not to your preference?

          But in looking at your later responses you are acknowledging that she has a lot on her plate and that you’re trying to figure out how you fit into the scheme of things. It’s hard to get a sense of how you’re doing when you get little feedback; I think what you’re looking for is more of it (feedback), and it sounds like you’re going to have to continue to advocate for yourself with her to get that done (being forthcoming with suggestions, scheduling more frequent sit-downs, even for ten minutes), if it’s possible with her workload.

          1. The Big L*

            Thanks for the feedback. It’s a challenge not only with her schedule but she seems annoyed at the fact that her directs, any of them, want time with her. Even in trying to schedule monthly meetings with her team she can be unclear on how often or how much time she wants/needs. I find her style of being unclear constantly has me (as I manage her calendar) doing and undoing and redoing things… When I was new I was worried people would assume I was incompetent but now everyone sees that it’s not me that drives the constant back and forth, they deal with it themselves.

            Being I’m lowest on the totem pole as the only non-exempt direct report (not to belabor that but that’s a big deal where I work) I find it challenging to insert myself. I did at one time set up a one on one, short, touchpoint meeting with her and often times she would blow it off (other meetings would run over or she’d have to schedule something that was priority at the same time). I have grown weary of trying to get time with someone who doesn’t seem to want to work with me. This after over a year of trying anything I can think of to get the information I need to do my job.

            It’s a very different relationship than what I’m used to. I am used to working closely with someone, being the ‘right arm’ and here I’m very much kept at a distance. I’ve worked for managers who have this kind of schedule before, but they would seek me out when they had free time and this isn’t the case here. Even if she needs something she at times will do it herself and often misses a step or gets something wrong. Then I have to clean things up, apologize to others. I have a good relationship with all her directs and I take comfort in the fact that I’m not the only one who works to adapt to her style. While I do have my preferences it’s more about being able to be efficient and effective. When you feel like you spend most your time feeling around in the dark due to lack of information, undoing work and wasting time and generally feeling adrift in your role it’s a challenge to even go to work every day.

            When we use ‘crazy’ by the way we are doing it in a very light hearted, playful way, we generally say “they crazy”, kind of dismissing the challenges and laughing about all the disjointedness of our workplace. It’s not meant to be hurtful or even directed at one person and some of us readily admit “and I’m crazy too” or “but hey I”m grateful” as there are a lot of good things about where we work that we try to take into account. When my coworker said it to me relating to the comments during my review I assume it was because she had nothing else to say – the review was good but the first thing she says is ‘are you looking for a job’… I wouldn’t know what to say either. But I do get your point. I actually had someone seriously ask me recently, from another department, if my manager does have any kind of mental illness that I’m aware of (just based on the behavior they witnessed) and I honestly had never considered it.

            Thanks again for your comments.

    11. TL -*

      ” I do know we have people completing their degrees in our department and she has commented they will have to move on while I’m surprised she doesn’t want to keep talented people, perhaps that’s the way she thinks.”

      It sounds like your boss is invested in her people growing in their careers and understands that people are going to work in a role until they have the skillset to move on to a better-paying, more challenging role and is actively encouraging of that. That’s a good thing. If she doesn’t think she can pay someone what they’re worth, or if she thinks they can handle higher level work than she can give them, it’s good management to let them know they’d be able to do and earn more elsewhere and mention she wants to be supportive of that.

      Maybe her delivery was really awkward (and maybe you’re really happy with your job and you don’t want a different position; that’s fine!) but she sounds supportive and realistic. She’s not trying to hold anyone back or keep anyone in a position they can no longer grow in.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Agreeing with everyone else who said bad delivery but really good message.

      Some bosses see their department as a stepping stone. People are just passing through on their way to having a career. This is a difficult way to work because it means as a boss you are constantly thinking about training. It sounds like she has reached a point where she thinks that everyone will stay for a bit then leave. It’s sad because you never build long term work relationships with people as there is always that new person. This could help explain some of her flightiness.

      She is in your corner, that is my read. I am thinking she feels very limited in how she can help you grow your career. I go back to your first three paragraphs here. I think that is everything you need to focus on in those three paragraphs. She will support you if you want to move but for her personally, she does not want you to leave.

      This could be sad from your perspective because maybe you like your boss/cohorts/setting and had not seriously considered moving on. So it can be jarring to realize, “hey, I may have to move on.”

      Overall you are in a good spot, your boss likes you and you are doing a good job. Take your time, be selective and start figuring out what is next for you.

    13. Koko*

      It sounds like your manager values you and is quite afraid of losing you because she knows you’re underutilized, and is trying to figure out what you need from her in order for her to have a shot at keeping you/whether she should realistically be expecting to have to replace you soon if you move to greener pastures.

    14. The Big L*

      I want to thank everyone who took the time to comment. I was very confused and upset but I can see how this was more positive than I originally thought.

      My manager IS a senior executive who has a department of over 100 people, third in command at our company. I guess my perspective is that there could be a place to move into, in time, but she doesn’t seem to share that view. I have tried to offer my skills to others but they seem concerned that our manager would not like that. She has made it clear to them and me that they need to know how to do things. At times they will give me more grunt work which isn’t what I want but I help others as much as I can. I’m also quite busy in my current role as it stands now, the work isn’t interesting or challenging but the volume is consistently high.

      My manager seems to want to be sure that I’ll continue to do my role well. It’s good to know she is supportive, rapport is a challenge when she keeps herself so busy (she is the driver of all the meetings where we are, much more than people like). I do get tired of making an effort, I often feel like I’m working in the dark without all the information i need to do my job but if I don’t make an effort the day can go by when we only communicate by email (and I sit outside her office). If I catch her in the hallway I have to email, she does sometimes forget what she had said.

      Anywho, appreciate the comments as I let all this sit and I try and work out what’s next for me.

  6. Venting Anon*

    Bit of a venting post: Does anyone else get really annoyed that no one at their job acknowledges them until something goes wrong?

    I process paperwork needed to create checks for our vendors. I have dozens of new payment requests coming in every day that all require verifying, documenting, processing, waiting for other departments to approve the request, receiving the check, updating everything for the check’s arrival, and then mailing that out. The holidays slow everything in the process down as people needed for these steps are out on vacation, myself included, so January is a big catch up month. I thought I’d finally caught up on the backlog but low and behold, one or two requests slipped through the cracks.

    Now I have several people questioning the hold up and berating me. I acknowledged my mistake and am doing everything in my power to expedite the process but still others are mad. I know I messed up but all I want to do is yell at them that I’m only human, doing the best I can, and would they like to see the hundreds of requests that I did process correctly so I’m sorry my track record has a 1-2% negative rating?

    I’m a fairly self-sufficient well-oiled machine that no one questions as long as the hundreds of payments are going out as needed. But just one goes astray and you’d think I was just setting every request on fire and getting nothing accomplished.

    Anyone else have this trouble? One or two mistakes turns everyone against you and no one cares about all the times you’ve done it right?

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      This may not be what you want to hear, and I get in trouble for this with my wife when she just wants to vent and I get all constructive….but…..honestly?

      “All the times you’ve done it right” is the expectation. It’s nice when a really good record of accuracy gets praised or called out, and bosses and colleagues should do that, but doing it right is typically a baseline expectation for the job. And the few that didn’t get done didn’t slip through the cracks – that was on you, and it was your mistake.

      They shouldn’t be hammering you, but a mistake is a mistake.

      1. Isben Takes Tea*

        Venting Anon isn’t asking for the mistakes to be ignored, they’re asking for good/hard work to be acknowledged. Of course it’s the expectation/baseline for the job, but that doesn’t mean it’s unreasonable to want validating/appreciation for it. When I thank the mailroom clerk for mailing my package, it’s not because I think they’re doing me a favor, it’s because I want them to know I value their contribution, even if it’s what’s expected.

        I’d go beyond saying it’s “nice” when people do that to it’s valuable, constructive, and, in fact, “baseline standard” expected behavior for team members (as colleagues are) to appreciate each other’s good performance.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          I acknowledged that it’s nice and valuable to be validated. But Venting Anon is also minimizing the fact that they made mistakes by overlooking invoices, and angry that those directly affected are annoyed with them. I think it’s possible to want and ask for more validation, while taking your lumps when you make mistakes.

          1. Trout 'Waver*

            Venting Anon is venting anonymously. Let’s take him at his word that he has addressed the mistakes at work already and hasn’t minimized them at work. It’s Friday, let’s cut him some slack.

      3. Phooey*

        Does Venting Anon insinuate that the missed payments were not their mistake? I am not seeing that. Venting Anon acknowledged the mistakes and vowed to expedite the requests. It is frustrating to have a very high accuracy rate but still receive a bollocking when a tiny percentage of errors surface.

        Humans have an error rate, no matter how good they are at their jobs. As your volume increases, so typically does your error rate. I think the view that 100% accuracy/”doing it right” is a baseline expectation in employment is pretty unrealistic. I know the next post will contain the words “air traffic control” or “brain surgery” but this is vendor payments – no one dies if they are delayed.

        More broadly, I think that this view – you should be doing your job right at all times and should expect criticism if you slip up – is really detrimental to honest communication in a workplace. I further believe this is a potentially dangerous work culture to create, where people feel compelled to blame shift or lie because the expectation is that they will never make a mistake. I have worked at places like this and they are incredibly toxic.

        I am currently on the other end of this scenario (requesting follow up on payments that have not been made). There is absolutely nothing to be gained from berating or even reprimanding (if they are generally quite accurate) the person who made the mistake, and I do think it’s important to acknowledge the person’s workload and their typical record of accuracy in these situations. It feels terrible to make a mistake, most people feel awful already, and I find it better for all to be sympathetic rather than critical. When I say better, I mean that people who don’t fear reprisal will admit mistakes more readily and will be quicker to rectify them, and our work relationship is maintained or strengthened. I want to stress that I am talking about working with high performers such as Venting Anon appears to be, not problem employees.

    2. Ann Furthermore*

      That’s really frustrating, but I think it’s just human nature. People are quick to complain, but rarely take the time to thank you when everything is running smoothly. I think the only thing you can do is give your boss a heads-up so s/he isn’t caught off guard if someone starts complaining. Say something like, “I thought I’d gotten through all the check requests that had backed up over the holidays, but then found I missed a couple from Prunella and Algernon. I’m getting them processed as quickly as I can. They’ve been grumbling about it, so I wanted to let you know what’s going on in case you hear something about it.” Hopefully your boss is a reasonable person and will support you.

    3. Lovemyjob...Truly!!!*

      Yes. I work in a medical related field and am in charge of processing insurance changes. January 1st is all about insurance changes! I am literally one person processing changes for nearly 150 people. The process is not smooth as calls need to be made to the insurance company to verify benefits, and each insurance company has it’s own sets of rules for prior authorizations and referrals that need to be obtained before we can continue servicing the patient which gums up the process even more. I am constantly being bombarded with calls and requests for high-priority patients in the meantime. Yesterday a co-worker in a different department scolded me for not getting things done faster. I was so angry!!! I am doing all that I can but I am still one person doing the job of about 6 people right now.

    4. Collie*

      I ran into this a lot early in my position, too. If you’re the kind of person who needs verbal acknowledgment that you’re doing well/doing your job to expectations, I think it’s okay to bring that up with your manager (and there’s nothing wrong with that). Something like, “I’ve noticed I really only get feedback when I make mistakes. It’s helpful for me to also hear when I’m doing especially well so I have a benchmark for both ends and can improve both on mistakes and places where I’m just okay,” might work for you.

    5. Anon for this b/c of work details*

      Oh, yes! All the time. I think it’s really common and I’ve learned not to take it personally. I’m a sales rep at a printing company, and at the end of the day, I’m responsible for the success or failure of all my projects. When a project goes well, my clients will sometimes write me a thank you note (and it always makes my day)… but sometimes (maybe even the majority of the time!) I don’t hear a peep from them. (We just completed a book for an artist’s exhibition, and while I thought it turned out great, it delivered ahead of schedule, etc., I never heard a woed about it from my client.)

      However, if something goes wrong, you can be sure I will hear about it every time. Sometimes in no uncertain terms.

      If I expected or felt I “deserved” thanks or even acknowledgement from every client when I do my job well, I’d get pretty bummed out pretty quickly. I just tell myself I’m sure they were happy with their book & they were probably super busy setting up their exhibition, so thanking me was the last thing on their minds. Sometimes I hear how happy such a client was with our product much later, from someone they refer to me (this happened to me just the other day).

      Another way of thinking about this is… they expect great service and quality from me. That’s the baseline. It’s not something worth heaping praise on me for, because that’s what they’re paying for! They’re not paying for mistakes or delays, so when those things happen, of course we’re going to hear about it.

      Bottom line is, I think this is very common, and if you can train yourself not to take it personally, try and imagine where your clients might be coming from, etc., you’ll be much happier overall.

    6. Anon Admin*

      I’ve never had anyone turn on me, but I do understand your frustration. Unfortunately, I think those of us who work in clerical/admin/accounting type jobs are basically unnoticed until something goes “wrong”and people do not realize how many steps/approvals/etc. can go into processing a request. As long as we stay in our little corner and keep things running smoothly and those checks going out nobody bothers you. Lucifer did not receive his check on time because he did not sign off/approve his time and suddenly he won’t get out of your corner and he won’t quit calling.

      The only thing I can offer is when someone gets snippy with you to maybe say ” I admitted I made a mistake and I’m doing my best to get rectified. Unless you have something constructive to add, I’d rather not continue to argue about this. Arguing is not going to speed up the process. Thank you for understanding”. Then change the subject or refuse to continue to conversation because if there is a perfect person out there that has never made a mistake, I’d love to meet them.

    7. Rat in the Sugar*

      Doing anything with Accounting is like doing the housework–no one notices unless it’s not done. It’s aggravating but that’s the way it is.

      2. Lord of the Ringbinders*

        I volunteered for a charity with a lovely director who would remind us to do stuff like thank the admins for sorting things.

    8. Fawesome*

      “Does anyone else get really annoyed that no one at their job acknowledges them until something goes wrong? ”

      Identifying so hard with several statements.
      I’m sorry that your work hasn’t been acknowledge up until now and in a less than favorable light.

    9. DevAssist*

      I absolutely understand how you feel! You are only human, but criticism is always louder than praise. Try not to let it get to you, and if you can, maybe institute a new way of reminding yourself of pending tasks?

      I hope your day gets better!

    10. Bad Candidate*

      Yep. I go through this a lot. Most people are appreciative and recognize that sometimes mistakes happen when they do. But now and then something will get messed up and someone will be upset. I get that they are upset, don’t blame them. It’s when they go on and on about it that ticks me off, really. And then their future requests get sent to the bottom of the pile. I normally respond to stuff pretty fast, within an hour, but I don’t have to even acknowledge it exists for 24 hours, and there’s no set turn around time once I do acknowledge it. So, yeah, bottom of the pile.

    11. Gadget Hackwrench*

      It’s weird… I work in a field where this is the status quo (No one notices when IT is doing it right…. but when something breaks, blame EVERYTHING on IT, even if you’re the one who broke it…) but as a result the direct managers of most good IT teams are super calm and reasonable when they come to us with something we actually DID break. It’s almost paradoxical.

      Do you have the kind of job where anyone’s tabulating your stats? i.e. are they following how many forms you process per hour, accuracy rating etc? If so, pointing to past records of high-scores may help ease them up off your back.

      1. Gadget Hackwrench*

        HALP. I put my email address in for this one thinking it would only email me for replies to this comment… but it’s flooding my inbox with every reply to the whole open thread!

        2. Gadget Hackwrench*

          Nevermind. Brain fart moment. I forgot to check the mails themselves for an unsubscribe. I got this. It’s all good.

        3. Blueismyfavorite*

          Yeah, I did the same thing once. I wish there was a way to just get notified if someone replies to you.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I am sad to say but I believe this is the world we have. Part of the problem is that things are speeding up, everything is just going faster and faster. People need stuff done yesterday, it’s no longer a want, it’s a need.

      So yes, we get noticed when we screw up and that feels like it’s the only time we get noticed.

      There is several things you can do.
      Decide to take more notice of when you do get compliments. What does that look like, think about this. Ever have some info pulled together quickly and you hand it to a cohort who needs it then they flash a big victory smile? That’s your compliment, spend a second savoring that big victory grin. (Yippee, I nailed that one!)

      The other thing you can do is make it a point to compliment other people when they are knocking out their work they way they are supposed to. It’s funny/odd but when we give more of what we want ourselves we seem to get more of what we want.

      I had a new person come to work in my department. He replaced someone else. I just went about what I usually do, setting up X for this person. I did it a few times and I noticed that the new person was asking questions of me. Pretty soon, he had gathered enough information that he was able to take X down when he was done. His predecessor always left tear down for me. Then I realized, New Person was not going to say “thanks” every time I set up for him, he was going to SHOW “thanks”. yeah. I am wowed.

      Thanks/appreciation can have many different costumes. My boss and I put papers in a particular order because we know what the other person appreciates. It’s a little thing, until you factor in we handle reams and reams of printed information.

      Last, for your own well being, try, try, try to reframe what is going on around you. Look a little deeper and see what you see. If we deal with stuff on the surface only we can end up feeling pretty defeated.

      I am not addressing your two mistakes here, because this is not about the two mistake I think. Had the two mistakes not happened you would still feel under appreciated, I sensed. So I thought I would answer that part.

    13. turquoisecow*

      All the time. It’s human nature to notice the negatives and ignore the positives. You can be darn good at your job 364 days out of the year, but the one time you’re late, or make a mistake, or have a typo, or get in an argument, or leave early, or whatever else, people will notice.

      My old job was like that. They’d notice I came in late, but didn’t notice I stayed late. They’d notice I left early, but didn’t notice I worked through lunch. So then someone would talk to me about it. My boss even said that it’s not about what you do, but how it appears to others. So if I did way better work and was done faster than all my coworkers, giving me time to take a break, it didn’t matter – all they saw was that my butt wasn’t in my seat when everyone else’s was.

    14. Raia*

      I’m trying to turn the under-appreciating culture around at my work by actively appreciating other people for their hard work. We were all feeling crummy and blue and I figured I may not be management but I can still do something to show I care about people and their strong work ethic.

    15. Koko*

      Very few people are patient or understanding when it comes to their money. If you look at it from their perspective, they aren’t evaluating you on doing your whole job, they are evaluating oyu on their interaction with you. They don’t actually care if you do 99.5% of the invoices correctly, they only care that you didn’t do theirs specifically, because they’re the ones who maybe can’t pay a bill on time because of a delay in their payment.

      I very nearly couldn’t close on my home purchase a couple of years ago because my HR department caused so many delays that my 401k disbursement didn’t arrive in my checking account until the morning I was closing when it should have arrived weeks before that. It didn’t make any difference to me if I was the only person they had ever caused problem for like that. The bottom line was that they almost screwed up the biggest and most complicated/stressful purchase I will ever make in my life. It would not comfort me one way or another to hear I was the only person they’d ever messed up with.

  7. bassclefchick*

    There’s a special place in Hell for employers who require a resume AND an application. Sigh. On the plus side, I do have a phone interview next week. We’ll see how that goes.

    So – what are your job hunting pet peeves? I would also add requiring a college degree for a job that clearly doesn’t require one.

        1. not my usual alias*

          I worked with someone who was convinced our new hire didn’t graduate from high school because it wasn’t listed on his resume. First, what a stupid thing to assume about someone who has a master’s degree. Second, who cares – if he has a master’s degree, he probably knows everything he needed to know to get through high school!

              1. Not Karen*

                No, I don’t. I went to an early college for undergrad that takes students before they complete high school.

        2. Cheshire Cat*

          I had a friend as a teenager who dropped out of 10th grade to start college early. The high school office told him that they’d give him a diploma when he graduated from college. We laughed about it, because who would care if you had a h.s. diploma when you have a college degree? It still seems silly to me, all these years later.

      3. AnonAnalyst*

        Especially when they have “major/area of study” and “degree obtained” as required fields for every educational institution. I really hate that because I have no idea what to fill in for receiving a high school diploma (which of course is NOT one of the choices if they have a drop down menu).

      4. Anxa*

        My favorite is when there’s a field that asks how may credits you took, but it was a non-credit program. But they asked for ALL education and it’s relevant to your application.
        I put 0 in last time. And when there’s no options for certificate in the drop down, so you have to put something like “graduate” which isn’t really true.

      5. Kj*

        I once had to go back 10 years in work history/education, with dates and the address and phone of all my schools and jobs. The problem? I was 23. 10 year before, I’d been in middle school. So I had to find my middle school’s address for the job.

      6. L*

        Ha, I can beat that! I’ve been applying for jobs in Japan and the traditional Japanese resume requires your educational history…from ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.

        1. Fushi*

          Augh, the Japanese resume format drives me nuts! So much information, yet barely anything useful for figuring out whether the person can do the job.

    2. Murphy*

      Definitely that. Uploading a resume and having to type everything into an application. Applications with required fields that you must fill in, and then validated (i.e. a “required salary” section that requires a number). Asking for your supervisor and contact information and the street address for every single job that you enter.

      *shudder* Getting flashbacks now.

      2. Workaholic*

        At a one on one meeting with my boss i was freaking out because i was used to being a top performer but my new position is more difficult to track and I’ve never been given a baseline metric goal (I’ve asked many times). He said I’m doing fine and if i wasn’t he’d let me know. essentially: no news is good news. But it makes any negatives stand ot like crazy.

    3. Contented Grad*

      – Applications that try to parse your resume and then completely butcher it, forcing you to do more work correcting the problems the parser created than just filling out the blank rows in the first place.
      – Forms that don’t save your responses, and DOYC forbid you refresh the page or press the “back” button, lest you lose all your work!
      – Skeezy “job” sites that result in scammy phone calls and emails. I’m including multi-level marketing in this one.

      1. EW*

        I’m typically pretty impressed with the auto parsing technology for most job applications. I wonder if your resume is set up in a non standard way or with formatting the software doesn’t recognize. You can use a differently formatted resume for auto parsing reasons.

        1. Contented Grad*

          For most people, it probably works great. If someone works (or has worked) for a university, though, the parser seems to have a tough time distinguishing the “education” and “experience” sections of their resume.

        2. Liane*

          I have a very standard resume: name & contact info; jobs and duties tailored to the opening; education. However I have run into this once or twice.

    4. Application Development Manager*

      I hate , Hate, HATE the bottomless pile your resume ends up in, in most employers career sections.

      Second biggest peeve….LinkedIn recruiters that reach out to you multiple times regarding a role or requisition. Then as soon as you show interest and ship off your resume to them, SILENCE!

      Third biggest peeve…..you have a great phone/in-person interview. You are told you’ll definitely hear back early next week. SILENCE. At least don’t be dishonest to the interviewees.

        1. Application Development Manager*

          I lifted the following directly off LinkedIn site :) In addition to all the below mentioned, I also have a short, bulleted list of my job responsibilities and accomplishments for each of the jobs I’ve held in the last decade.

          -Choose “Make my public profile visible to everyone” in your public profile settings.
          -Invite and connect with at least 1 connection.
          -Supplement your profile with additional sections and information.
          -Update your profile regularly to keep it current.

          1. RavensandOwls*

            Huh. Is it industry dependent, do you think? I do most of that already, making me think it almost certainly is based on what kind of field you’re in.

            1. Application Development Manager*

              Probably. My guess is it also depends on how many people you are connected to and if “their” connections are able to view your profile.

              Job searching is a crapshoot anyways.

            2. Zombeyonce*

              You can also find a recruiter for your field and add them. I think that some recruiters keep an eye on other recruiters’ new connections. I find that when a recruiter connects with me on LinkedIn, suddenly I get a few requests for connections from other recruiters.

    5. RavensandOwls*

      That really grinds my gears, too… why even bother?

      The thing that’s getting me is the extra above and beyond of, “Submit letters of recommendations” on TOP of your cover letter, resume, and references. I’m not applying for college, here, and it just seems like so much extra work.

      (Also, the perennial not contacting thing. That’s more frustrating than anything else…)

    6. checkin in*

      My pet peeve is when they want you to fill in the application but the boxes where you describe what you do (you know how employers used to use RESUMES for that??? those were the days!) has a very short character length. I cannot describe my current work in 500 characters and still sound impressive.

    7. EW*

      Making every field required. And the fact that I can’t just have ONE brass ring (insert any other popular application system) login and saved profile to use with multiple companies.

      1. justsomeone*

        Seriously this. If you’re all using brassring or taleo, why can’t brassring or taleo just have a central place for my resume?

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Or making supervisor info required. At least two of my past jobs, the supervisor is no longer there and I have no contact info for anyone. That’s not my problem, people–I’m not there anymore!

        1. Bad Candidate*

          Right. You want my supervisor for a job I had for 8 months in 1997? Um, I think his name was Mike???

        2. RavensandOwls*

          This brings up a question I’ve had – what if they’re no longer there but you DO have their info?

          Many apps ask for direct supervisor at those jobs and I put her name down, but I guarantee that whoever picks up the phone doesn’t know her from Adam, and I’m afraid they’ll hand the call to my former principal (with whom I DID NOT get along and who has already screwed me out of a job, not even as a reference, by calling and leaving me a bad employee review. Despite my teaching reviews being excellent.)

          1. snicker*

            I have 3 previous positions where the company no longer exists & CEO/Manager/whomever would be my reference is deceased…

            2. Workaholic*

              Me too! Of 9 places I’ve worked: 7 no longer exist. Though the two still in existence were/are my favorite jobs.

        3. Drew*

          They’re going to have an even tougher time with one of my old companies (job ended when the company folded and all the employees scattered to the four winds) and one of my old bosses (unless their seance game is really strong).

        5. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

          Yes! And then they require 3-5 references on top of that.
          I have a few stints of temping on my resume, where I’ve gone on multiple assignments through the same agency. I don’t even know who I’d list! My rep at the agency? The supervisor at my most recent assignment? The supervisor at my longest assignment?

      1. JustaTech*

        I love that I have really good answers for those: “contract ended” “lab closed”. In other words, not my fault!
        It helps make up for not knowing the address of the one place that has since closed (or the name of my manager).

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I had a friend whose last three jobs closed, went out of business. He was convinced that prospective employers read that as a curse and avoided him. He finally did get a job though.

      2. bassclefchick*

        Yup, because as soon as you answer honestly (I was fired, I didn’t fit in with the culture, whatever), you automatically go into the “no” pile.

      3. Delta Delta*

        It would be nice to say “it was a toxic stew of dysfunction and I cried in the car every day on the easy home” but that might be a turn off to new employees. :)

    9. Volunteer Coordinator in NoVA*

      I think my biggest when I was job searching was when the job description/posting said one thing and then you’d get in an interview and the position would be different or so much more than originally mentioned. I feel like this happens when someone else writes the description verse who interviews for it but I feel like this happened at least 3 or 4 times when I was interviewing for my current potions.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        That exact thing happened to me this week. A recruiter with the smoothest voice I’ve ever heard outside professional radio called me and after our conversation, he scheduled me for a call later that same day with the hiring manager.

        When she called, she said someone had written the job description while she was on vacation and it was NOTHING like the actual job. They made it sound very document-oriented (which was why I applied, and why DJ Recruiter thought I’d be a great fit. Instead, it was a general admin cross-trained to back up other admins and the receptionist, very little doc work, and MAYBE some typing. :P She said that given my experience, she didn’t think I would be happy there. Read: You’re way overqualified and I don’t want to hire you because you’ll bail.

        Yesterday, I saw the listing again and the job details were completely different. So at least someone fixed it!

        1. Volunteer Coordinator in NoVA*

          At least they fixed it but totally a bummer for you! Good you figured it out early though as getting to an interview and having it change there is super awkward.

      2. voluptuousfire*

        Yep. Hated this so much.

        My biggest pet peeve were recruitment coordinator roles that would have “Recruitment Coordinator” as the title of the ad, but when you read the body of the ad it says “The recruiter will…” and it’s all the higher level recruiter stuff. Granted RC roles can either be generally administrative or a recruiter in training, but it was disheartening to see it billed as something it really wasn’t. It’s confusing and a bit misleading. It’s not precisely the same thing!

      3. Ama*

        This happened a lot at the university I used to work at because HR made it so hard to update job descriptions. Any tiny little change to the previous description had to be approved — ostensibly this was so they could make sure people weren’t trying to sneak manager level work into entry level positions and vice versa but the process took months, usually while the position was sitting empty. So a lot of people would just use the job description they’d had the last time the position was open since that was already approved — even though it was often not an accurate depiction of the position as described. (Somehow *that* didn’t seem to bother HR, though.)

    10. Manders*

      My biggest pet peeve is being told about an interview on short notice, without being offered any control over when your slot will be. You *know* I have a job. You can see *right there on the resume I just sent you* that I work full time. Would you really be ok with your own employees leaving at random times during the day with such short notice?

      Not having a quiet place to do a phone interview anywhere near my office is also my job hunting pet peeve, but it’s not the prospective employer’s fault.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        Urgh, yes, I agree with that.

        And our office does not have many spare meeting rooms/offices, so most people end up using corridors or the stairwell for calls.

      2. Pineapple Incident*

        I had a group at the last company I worked for schedule last-minute interviews with me 3 of the 4 times I met with them. I was desperate for a new job, so I made myself look as good as I could to walk downstairs from my clinical area to their office. Clothes couldn’t be too nice at ExJob, because I never knew when I’d have to clean equipment with bleach or something, so that was probably a mark against me each time.

    11. Ann Furthermore*

      Recruiters who hound and badger you to come into their office for an interview, and spend the entire time gushing over how impressive your resume is, and then never lining up any interviews for you. And then only reach out to you asking if you know of someone who would be interested in a job they’re trying to fill.

      1. Karanda Baywood*

        Oh yes. This happened often when I was searching.

        They’re all enthused over you and then radio silence until 8 months later when you’re already in your new job…

      2. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        I had this happen with a corporate recruiter. I know she can’t help it if the hiring manager didn’t want to bring me in, but I had an AMAZING phone interview with her. She flat out stated she was putting me through to the next round and would let me know as soon as she confirmed the hiring managers schedule. Also, she said I’d be a great fit for two of the roles they had open so she was going to get with the hiring manager for the other role too. And then nothing. So frustrating!

    12. checkin in*

      Another one! Employers who expect you to start immediately after a job is offered. I lost out on a contract job in the new city I’m moving to because I told my current boss that I would guarantee 2 weeks notice (and I NEED her as a reference) and they said that I would need to start the following Monday. It took them 4 weeks to make a decision… Such BS

    13. Tempest*

      I did one that required the resume and the application, both of which were acceptable to them when I applied. They then asked me to do a video interview where I’d have been talking to a webcam recording me for later review. It would ask you a question, give you 30 seconds to think about it and then start recording. No thank you. People who hate being filmed/photographed (IE me) will find that so nerve wracking it’s doubtful you’d get a true picture of who they were anyway. I self selected out of the application process due to the video component. Plus, it didn’t work on phones and when I get home from a long hard day the last thing I want to do is find somewhere in my house to sit down with a web cam in my suit and talk at it. Maybe that means the job wasn’t ever going to be for me!

    14. Penny*

      Job apps that say ‘What date can you start?” and force you to pick a date from the digital calendar. I just need to be able to give CurrentJob two weeks notice and I’m good to go! I can’t give you a specific date!

      1. Zombeyonce*

        Sometimes it seems like the people that created job application software have never actually had jobs. So many problems with it that seem like common sense to fix.

      2. Pineapple Incident*

        Ugh yes! Had an application where I arbitrarily put down a date 6 weeks in the future- when I was interviewing with them over a month later they asked if that date was still legit, and obviously you can’t say anything other than “well like any other sane, honorable human worker I need to give my current employer whose reference you want 2 weeks notice…”

    15. Freya UK*

      Yes – both of these! Particularly the latter – I see them all the time, jobs I could do with my eyes closed (and my CV would attest to that), but I wouldn’t get a look-in because I didn’t go to university. Their loss!

      I suppose things work a little differently here, but desperate recruiters pitching completely unsuitable jobs to you drive me up the wall! The last time I was job-hunting I made it clear that one of the reasons I left my last job was the commute, as I don’t drive, and specified the length of commute I wouldn’t exceed and areas I could easily reach (this included the city centre) – yet one of the recruiters I was dealing with kept contacting me about jobs in completely unsuitable areas (such as in the middle of nowhere, off a motorway on the opposite side of the city). Eventually I just stopped responding after my umpteenth email back reiterating the unsuitability and why…

      2. voluptuousfire*

        I’d get random emails from recruiters for jobs in Iowa for roles I had NO experience in. The recruiter did a search for a keyword and I got pulled into there. I’m in NYC, not Iowa nor do I have 3 years in Salesforce development. (I had general Salesforce experience as a user)

        Also calls from recruiters who were not in the NYC Tri-State area and wanted me to consider roles that were 40+ miles one way. Going from where I live to somewhere in Northern New Jersey or even Westchester County is 90 minutes one way, no traffic. Traveling 100+ miles roundtrip every day would not make any sense.

        1. Lady Bug*

          I live on Long Island and we always get Connecticut ones. Um, Stamford is like a 3 hour drive unless you build me that bridge.

    16. lady incredulous*

      Finding out that a company in your industry generally starts everyone out at entry level regardless of experience.

      …REALLY??????

    17. Trout 'Waver*

      Applicant tracking systems that auto-send tacky rejection notices when the posting closes. Has anyone even looked at my application packet? How can anyone even know? It feels like something out of Kafka.

    18. PhillyPretzel*

      Ditto to requiring an application along with your resume. I’d also add applications that require you to include EVERY job you’ve had in the past 10 years. I’m fine with disclosing that stuff, but it takes me forever to fill out.

      Also, requiring salary histories. It’s irrelevant and intrusive.

      1. Ms. Anne Thrope*

        Not just salary history, but *starting* as well as ending salaries! What possible relevance could that have?!? Especially since I started this job in 1999.

        1. Zombeyonce*

          While I’m definitely not defending it — salary history is not my future employer’s business — I think some of the reasoning behind the starting and ending salary requests is to see if you’ve grown in a position, though it really only tells them if someone was valued in a position based on salary increases. But it gets really messy if you’ve been somewhere a long time with a role that evolved even if a title or salary didn’t.

          1. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

            Oh, I hate these. What’s worse is when you work for a company that not only is very stingy with the raises (it was an open secret that the only way to get any kind of raise in some departments was to get promoted), but also cuts everyone’s pay for the last few months of the year! I kind of understand why they did it (a certain percentage cut for everyone so they didn’t have to lay off anyone), but I can only imagine what a hiring manager might think when they see my ending salary is slightly lower than my starting salary at that company!

        2. Anxa*

          And those that require hourly or annual. I tossed my paystubs from previous like a god darn fool! And my tax returns aren’t reliable because I had more than one job. And my contract for jobs was by academic calendar, not annual, so even if I have the old w2s it seems off.

          I know my WEEKLY salaries, but not annual. And I can’t just multiply by 52 because of breaks, etc.

          Seriously, instead of working on grooming soft skills and technical skills, I wish someone had taken me aside when I was 16 and said “make sure you keep a record of your start date, end date, salary, how to spell your supervisors names.”

      2. Liane*

        I run into trouble with systems that won’t accept salary information I give them–because I need a job & it is required-because it doesn’t fit what the software thinks a wage/salary looks like. My editing/writing gig is a pair of set monthly stipends and previously was a per article basis plus the editing stipend. A few systems will accept something like “Variable” or “Per project” but some only want a dollar amount, and won’t accept an entry below $X per year. I just put in the minimum it accepts and am so tempted to put for every one of my jobs what I want my new one to pay.

        1. Zombeyonce*

          If you run into that problem again, you might consider figuring out what your hourly salary would be if it were a regular, full-time job.

          If they want an hourly rate:
          -For the monthly stipend, multiply that by 12 months and then divide by 2080 (work hours in a year for 40-hour weeks).
          -For the per-article+editing it’s more complicated, but you could do something like figure out how many articles you produced per week/month and how many hours you put in to produce that, then multiply that into a monthly amount, add the editing stipend, and then multiply that by 12 months and then divide by 2080

          They won’t be totally right, but they’d get you pretty close and be more accurate than just guessing or putting down a minimum amount.

    19. Beautiful Loser*

      #1 pet peeve are the “recruiters” who call where English is not their first language and they are so hard to understand it makes me wonder if they ever placy anyone.

      #2 are the ones that email for a job you are not even remotely qualified for. Did you bother to even read my resume?

      1. Mimmy*

        #1 – A big, fat YES!!! The onboarding specialist from the temp agency handling my contract job has a very thick accent, and I could not understand him for the life of me. Thank goodness this was a pre-arranged job (the director of the state agency approached me to take on this project, but they’re using a temp agency my State uses for its contract employees to process payroll). Here’s hoping the Employee Relations staff are easier to understand!

      2. AnonAnalyst*

        #2 – I find these both frustrating and hilarious, depending on how off the mark they are. I have gotten some truly bizarre ones before for jobs that have nothing to do with anything I’ve ever done before and are not located anywhere near where I live. I am always so, so curious to know how they even found my info when doing a search for that particular job.

    20. Bad Candidate*

      – Recruiters who see ONE term on your resume and think that means you’re qualified for everything related to it, regardless of what’s actually on your resume. “Oh you know CHOCOLATE SWIRL teapots? Well you must know everything about chocolate swirl semi trucks too! I have this great opening…”

      – Recruiters who think you’re the bees knees, have this great opening for you, that totally lines up with your experience and desires, want you to come in to meet with them and when you do you find out that the job they talked about on the phone is no longer available but would you be interested in this other job? It’s a receptionist job paying $8/hour in an office that requires you to wear a suit every day, has no benefits, and still permits smoking in the office.

      – Asking for my SSN right off the bat. No.

      – Requiring personality inventories and other assessments that have nothing to do with the actual job and take an hour or more.

      1. Zombeyonce*

        “It’s a receptionist job paying $8/hour in an office that requires you to wear a suit every day, has no benefits, and still permits smoking in the office.”

        This made me lol, until I realized that this job probably exists somewhere.

      2. Not Karen*

        My mother does that first one. I once did data entry for a cardiology study. Apparently that means I should be an expert in cardiology now.

        1. Bad Candidate*

          Yes. This is exactly the problem. I changed the wording. The way we use this term and the “standard” use of the term are similar but not similar enough for me to be remotely qualified in the use of the standard method.

    21. SCORM Hacker*

      Requiring a college GPA when I have 20+ years of industry experience (and tossing out my application when I decided to leave it blank!)

    22. Mimmy*

      I think the application is meant to document your full work and educational history–I believe it is a legal document. The resume is the “marketing tool”. But yeah – I hear ya on that, especially when there is nothing in a menu of choices that match well with your specific answer.

      Another pet peeve: When a job announcement states a drivers license requirement without a clear reason. I can’t drive due to my eyesight, and I’ve passed up on otherwise good opportunities because of the requirement. Although I do wonder if part of it is merely to ensure you have proper identification.

      Reference checks is another pet peeve. I kinda wish that you would be told the nature of the reference requests so that you can tell your references what to expect–a phone call, a form to fill out, etc.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        I HATE the drivers license requirement. No, you don’t need to be able to drive to be a [insert my actual job here]. Sometimes you might benefit from driving somewhere. But it is 100% not an essential part of the job. It is completely accommodate-able. Therefore, it should not be a job requirement for every job in my field. (Some support roles in the field do require it. But certainly not all, and it’s in 98% of the job descriptions anyway.)

      2. Sas*

        I’m sitting over here without a job, and this almost made me cry. Do you think that you could use an Id (one that you could get without it being for driving)? Have you worked with a career counselor or Vocational Rehabilitation before that could help you figure this out?

        My peeves about this subject: 2) The things that others have listed above. All of them had happen to me before. 1) People that could change all of these things and do not. I think somewhere in my rantings, I have addressed my disdain for most of these things.

        1. Mimmy*

          Aww don’t cry! :) I have a non-drivers ID. It looks like a driver’s license but states that it’s for identification only.

      3. bassclefchick*

        YES to the driver’s license! I DO have one, but I don’t own a car. The job I applied to asked if I had a valid license, a car, and proper insurance. Um, really? For a receptionist job? And you only have 1 location in town? I had to mark that question as “no”, so I’m sure I’ll get tossed out of the running.

        1. Anxa*

          Yes! I had to enter my car insurance info and I didn’t have a car. I had access to a car, but no insurance because I didn’t have a car because … I didn’t have a job!

      4. Anxa*

        Oh man!

        I got my license a few years after college graduation, but I wonder if any of those jobs I had to skip out on (jobs that had no indication of needing to drive) would have been the one to get me started on a better patch when I was more of a fresh graduate.

        Sometimes I wonder if it was about ID, too. Like, would my DMV state ID number been okay? I wish I was more brazen back then and just did it.

      5. smthing*

        That could open them up to lawsuits. A hiring requirement that that does not actually impact the performance of job duties and also has the effect of limiting access by a protected class is a big no-no. One of the classic discrimination suits was the old height limit on flight attendants, which had no relation to job duties but had the effect of discriminating against men.

    23. siiif*

      Applying for design jobs and Taleo takes your pristinely designed resume and scrapes it (badly). Or they have a place to attach a portfolio and the size limit is only like 5 MB.

      1. Amadeo*

        Cripes, totally agreeing with this! “Upload your resume in PDF format!” Resume is uploaded and…scraped for the info. Your design work is gone and you still have to go through all of the fields and fix them anyway.

        For crying out loud.

    25. EmmaLou*

      Computer applications that won’t let you leave fields blank. If I’ve only ever had two jobs I don’t HAVE third and fourth one for those boxes. Or it’s been 30 years. He can’t remember what his starting wage was at AM/PM when he was 16 in the seventies sometime…. You aren’t allowed to ask me for my social security number yet. This is just an application for goodness’ sakes.

    26. Anxa*

      I like when phone number is a required field from a reference, who doesn’t have a work phone, and there’s no field for email. Bonus when you try to squeeze an email address in anyway and it’s rejected for being an invalid format.

    27. Anxa*

      Actually, I honestly think that people who perpetuate this disconnected job application process are doing our society a huge disservice. I mean, I get that employers need automated tools. But our education system, career advice sites, labor departments are not doing enough to help applicants deal with the new application systems. Do you know how many courses my comm college and library have on building a resume? Lots! Personality tests? Taleo? ATS in general? None.

      Worker training programs will have courses on how not to wear ripped clothing during an interview, but there’s basically no guidance on understanding how to address issues with your application for the modern systems.

      Do labor departments and employment commissions even know what a job search is like anymore?

    28. Chaordic One*

      My pet peeve is employers who ask for college transcripts.

      I graduated from college more years ago than I would care to mention, and since then I’ve taken numerous courses at numerous other instutions (mostly community colleges wherever I happened to live at the time). I usually just list my bachelor’s degree and leave off my related associate degree and the several certificates I received, as well as the isolated courses that I’ve taken here and there.

      I don’t have a great GPA from when I earned my B.A. I’m not proud of it, but it was so long ago that I no longer think it particularly relevant. Several times I’ve applied for varous clerical positions at a local community college and I’ve never received a single interview there. The application required transcripts and I’m convinced that the reason I’ve never gotten a single interview is because of my low GPA many years ago.

      1. Mabel*

        I was thinking about this while reading the comments because my college GPA was not great. However, I have worked steadily (and have had generally great reviews) in the 32 years since then, so I don’t think the GPA is relevant now. I’m considering starting a job search, and this thread is making me apprehensive.

        1. Chaordic One*

          Fortunately, most employers do not ask for transcripts. Generally, the only ask for them from recent grads. It does seem to be a big thing in academia, in particular, even for comparatively low-level jobs.

    29. Trix*

      New one to me, just encountered yesterday – 5-7 page writing sample for a position that does not involve any significant writing, with 0 clues as to what on earth theyou were hoping to get from it

    30. dragon_heart*

      Employers who play coy about how much the salary is. They make you go through the whole recruitment process even when they can’t even match your current salary and benefits, plus they never bring this up with you.

  8. tired person*

    Have you ever felt disappointed at being turned down for a job you didn’t really want in the first place? Like…you sensed it won’t be a good fit, and presumably they feel the same way, yet you don’t want to be the one being rejected? It’s probably that you’d want to be the one doing the turning down, which is somewhat unreasonable (assuming they have decent judgement), but…ugh, I hate feeling like this.

    1. Newby*

      It makes perfect sense. If nothing else, there is a feeling of validation (or an ego boost) when you get a job offer, even if you don’t really want to take it.

    2. Sybil Fawlty*

      Absolutely! It feels worse, somehow. Also happens with dating, I vaguely recall. It feels worse to be rejected by someone or something you didn’t want anyway. Hang in there!

    3. canoe*

      Right there with you, had two great interviews and very positive response to writing sample, then radio silence. There was a lot I was skeptical about, but really thought I’d at least get an offer. Oh well, the right thing will eventually come along.

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      Yeah. Rejection is no fun, even when you’re being rejected for something you didn’t want! But these are much easier to get over than rejections for jobs you really do want.

    6. Sled dog mama*

      Yep, I got my revenge on one of these recently ( in the last year).
      First job out of grad school was down to me and one other candidate, they hired the other candidate. Through a series of acquisitions, internal moves and promotions I ended up reporting to the guy who made that decision. About six months in he’s sitting in our shared office (crappy client only would provide one office for the two of us, and it was smaller than all their employee’s offices) and he sighs and says “I wish I’d hired you five years ago, you’d probably still be there and not thinking about leaving the company because of this place.” He went on to tell me that the other person lasted 18 months and had zero work ethic where he really enjoyed working with me because I got stuff done.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      “Jeepers, I can’t even get a job that I DON’T want.”

      BTDT.

      And you are accurate in your description of “tired person”. A tired mind will think of this stuff and not let go.

      You can:
      Decide to think about this later, when you have had more rest.
      Decide to understand that the two of you actually agree here.
      Decide that the reason you did not get it is because there is something better, strengthen your resolve to look at your setting with fresh eyes.
      Decide that you deserve something better than a job you dislike.

      This stuff is hard and it when it’s not hard that is only because it is down right IMPOSSIBLE.
      Please invest in some self-care this weekend. Do something to recharge YOU. This is whatever recharging means to you. When I am in this space in my brain, I need to just take a break, even a short break will help. You will get through this, you’ll make it.

      1. Trix*

        So, you obviously wrote that directly to me right?

        Damn I needed to hear that. Thank you. I do deserve better than a job I dislike, and I think this weekend I’ll treat myself to the cross stitch and Netflix lazy weekend I’ve been craving but have been telling myself I’m too busy for

    8. Morgan*

      Yes, I’ve felt that way a few times. Next week, I interview for a position I am not very interested in. Was laying here thinking about removing my application.

  9. Sunflower*

    Does anyone know of good resources/forums to get information on Australian subclass 462 visa- the visa that allows Americans to work temporary in Australia? Maybe even just good expat forums?

    I’ve done quite a bit of research but I’m primary looking for people’s experiences with getting work(and what work you can realistically get), avg pay, resume writing, what to expect, etc. I’m nervous a lot of the resources I’ve found so far are sugarcoating the experience (most postings are all about why you should do it as opposed to what it’s actually like)

    2. Blue Anne*

      I recommend the “I Am A Triangle” group on Facebook. Lots of expats from all over the world, and everyone is always trading advice and experiences. It’s better than any other expat forum I’ve found. I seem to have become the go-to person there for Americans doing taxes abroad, which is gratifying.

      2. Worker Bee (Germany)*

        Thank you so much for this tip! Looking for resources for an American to move to Germany

    3. Parenthetically*

      I’m not familiar with the details of that visa so I don’t know what kinds of work it covers, but I know of some backpackers organizations with lots of folks on temporary work visas in Australia, doing farm work/seasonal work. If that doesn’t apply, feel free to ignore. :)

    4. Lab Monkey*

      I’ve held this visa!

      Rate of pay is going to vary depending on what you end up doing. If you’re just looking to try out Australia for a year (Americans cannot renew, do not let your UK friends tell you there’s a second year), your best bet might be to get in with a temp agency in any major city. You have a 6m restriction on your employer. Do not try to cheat it. You’ll be caught.

      Living in any of the cities in Australia Is similar to living in a big city in the US. It will be SPENNY. You’ll get a job for $20+/hour and think GREAT, but remember: rent is advertised weekly, not monthly. A small studio in Melbourne near the cbd will cost over $1k a month.

      The visa itself is fairly easy to get. Securing a place to live and a job are the hard parts. If you’d like to backpack rather than live in one place, I’m sure it’s a very different experience (and one I don’t know).

      If you want more info about my experience, I’ll try to watch this thread – you can also leave an email.

    5. Silver*

      Rent can be crazy in many of the capital cities. Sydney in particular is insane.
      Do loads of research on where you want to go and how much rent will be as it can be over half your monthly salary. It’s really easy to go under financially if you’re not working regular hours eg/ hospitality, retail etc.
      Also familiarise yourself with the visa rules around work. There are a few businesses (eg 7/11) that got in trouble recently for exploiting students and other temporary visa holders by underpaying them or misstating the hours they worked. There are minimum wages and hours set by industry awards in many industries which your employer will know about and should hold to. Also you may find some of your paycheck going into something called superannuation which is like a 401k. Most universities should have info leaflets on this stuff for foreign students that could help you as well.
      Good luck and hope you like my country :)

  10. Asking Newbie*

    Will soon be looking for a new job and I know the question will come up ‘Why are you looking?’ The honest answer is that my current job is a nightmare, with terrible coworkers and supervisors who are making my life absolutely miserable. Obviously, that’s not an answer I can give interviewers. So what should I say instead?

    ‘I’ve reached the extent of growth in my current employment’ and ‘seeking new responsibilities and opportunities’ are answers I’ve heard a lot, and would be true since there is no forward momentum to be found were I am, but it feels like a cop-out. What else can I say when asked why I’m looking?

    1. Odyssea*

      Perhaps saying that you’re looking for a work culture that is a better fit? As a manager, that would be a good way to signal why you are leaving without coming off negative or bitter. Backing it up with examples in your answers to behavioral questions (i.e. “i often had to provide coverage for coworkers with little to no notice, so I set up this system,” etc.) would give me the hint as to why you’re looking for a new job, and as long as you provided good answers to the interview questions, it wouldn’t be a red flag.

    3. Pup Seal*

      Yeah, that’s a tough question when the real answer is, “My job is a nightmare and I need to get out ASAP!” It’s also really hard when my resume makes it look like I’m doing great work at my current job. For some interviews, I’ve told the hiring manager that my current job has expanded my role to include duties I’m not qualified to do and I want to go back to doing work that I’m specialized in. I told one interviewer that my work environment is too relaxed and I work better in fast-pace work cultures. I normally go with my specialty isn’t being utilized to the fullest.

    4. Stellaaaaa*

      There’s nothing wrong with saying that you’re looking for new opportunities for growth. Others may disagree with me, but I think it’s okay to say something like, “When I first took the job, I was excited to work with that team. Over the years, a lot of those people have left and the mission of the company has drifted. I’d like to work somewhere that makes me feel excited again.”

    5. NW Mossy*

      You’re not under any obligation to tell them the honest answer – it’s a job interview, not a court proceeding where there are penalties for perjury. The two answers you cite are perfectly reasonable and appropriate things to say.

      And besides, anyone who interviews often knows that these types of statements are a polite veneer over “my current employer is Crazy Town, Inc.” They’ll likely have a rough sense of the real situation, but admire your professionalism in not falling down the Drama Llama well.

    6. Application Development Manager*

      “I like what I do, but I am ready for bigger and better challenges. I have worked hard to hone my skills and I feel I am ready to expand my horizons and experiences in different industry and work areas.”

    7. fposte*

      A copout is fine as long as there’s some truth in it. It sounds like the two answers you’ve heard would be perfectly legit for you.

    8. Kyrielle*

      Honestly? I’d give one of those two and immediately pivot to why you want to work at the place you’re interviewing – what about the job in question interests or (if it really does) excites you.

      They don’t need to understand the real reason you’re leaving. They can’t change anything about what’s going on at your current job, so there’s no need to find a way to pass that info to them. And there’s no need to have a “really good” reason for leaving. “I can’t grow any more and want to try something different” is perfectly understandable, normal, and acceptable. (I mean, after a reasonable amount of time, anyway, at the job you’re leaving.)

      In some ways, you don’t *want* your answer to this one to stand out. It’s a conversational question whose value revolves around hinting at two things – “are you possibly a source of drama?” (you want it to convey ‘nope, I get business norms’) and “are you likely to take a counter-offer / interviewing to cement your place there?” (again, you want a nope, obviously…they don’t want to make an offer only to lose you.)

      Both of these boring daily answers convey that, though the first one a little more strongly (if you’re seeking growth and they haven’t got it), but the second one implies it. Pivoting to why you want to work with them reinforces the “nope” on the second one.

      Absent specific circumstances, you’re rarely going to have an interesting/exciting/non-cop-out-ish answer to this one that is going to do the job of answering the sub-text very well, I think. (Contract jobs ending; downsizings; buyouts that change product lines; that sort of thing.)

    9. Mirror mirror*

      The key is to say something that makes it sound like you are attracted TO this job and not running AWAY from your present situation. I’ve been on a lot of search committees, and I assure you, interviewers assume that your current job situation is not perfect, which is why you are looking. You can be honest without turning this into a Glass Door rant or therapy session. “I’m looking for a job that will allow me to {insert job stuff} in a collegial environment.”
      PS The candidates who don’t understand professional boundaries and speak negatively about their current positions do not move forward in the hiring process.

    10. Sunflower*

      Can you specify what sorts of challenges/changes you’re looking for? I was miserable at my last job for a lot of reasons but a few of which were that 1. I wasn’t really part of a team and I wanted that in my next job 2. I had hit my plateau as an event planner there. And I wanted someone more expert than me to work under. 3. I was doing the same events over and over and wanted to get a better variety.

      This can be adjusted from job to job but I think if you are able to name more specific things, it will come off as much more understandable about why you’re looking (and why you’d be a good fit for the job)

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Be as brief as possible then change gears and tell them why you applied at their company.
      It could look like this:

      “Why are you leaving Current Job?”

      “I feel that I have maxed out at Current Place. I saw your ad and I know I love doing X, Y and Z, and you have this position that requires X, Y and Z.” Talk a little bit about how well your skills, previous jobs, etc give you a solid background for this opening.

      They probably won’t even notice the transition because you just slide from talking about Current Job to Their Opening.

  11. Maple*

    Just had my final interview after a lengthy application process for an organization I’d love to work for, doing work I’d love to do, getting paid way more than I’ve ever made. Just waiting to see if I get an offer now.

    During this lengthy process, my husband interviewed for, was offered, negotiated, and accepted an out-of-state job. We’re moving in July.

    I can’t accept if I get an offer, right? I’m out of the running. I would only be there four months. I can’t accept knowing that. Right? It feels dishonest.

    But I got laid off in January and I can’t just be unemployed for those four months. I was the breadwinner; my husband is a grad student. I haven’t had any other interviews. I don’t know what to do. I really want an offer and hate to turn it down if it comes. But I should, shouldn’t I? What else could I do?

    1. Odyssea*

      Please do not accept the offer knowing that you will be leaving. It will not reflect well on you, and could damage your professional reputation. I would reach out to the hiring manager, or whoever you have been interviewing with, and let them know that, while you started the interview process with the best of intentions, your living situation has now changed and you would not be able to accept the position if offered.

      Any reasonable manager will take this as a professional move, which is what you want them to remember about you if you ever have a chance to interview with them again.

      2. Maple*

        This is what I thought. It’s a bummer, but it’s the right thing to do. MANY people around me are encouraging me to just go for it and deal with the consequences later- thanks for the sanity check.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      Turn it down. Onboarding new hires is a lot of work and I think it’s shitty to start a job knowing you’ll be leaving in 4 months. Get a retail job or another type of job where turnover is high enough that 4 months won’t make a difference.

      1. Maple*

        Part of what sucks is that that kind of high-turnover job tends to be stuff like retail and restaurant work, which is physically tough for me. I actually was trying to bridge my own employment gap with a restaurant job, but I’m looking to leave that too due to just not being able to swing it much anymore. I suppose it’s temping for me. New experiences!

        1. Newby*

          You can see if a temp agency has the type of placements you would be able to do. Sometimes there are placements for receptionist or data entry, which is more likely to be physically manageable.

    4. Temperance*

      If you’re the breadwinner, do you absolutely have to move for your husband’s career? It seems like your job is more important to your family’s financial future, so why can’t he look locally?

      You really can’t take a job for 4 months without burning the bridge permanently with that org. Sadly.

      1. Anna*

        Well, he’s already accepted and they plan on moving. And Maple says they WERE the breadwinner, so the situation changed with the layoff.

    5. Ann Furthermore*

      Agree with everyone here. It would be one thing if you took the job, and then your husband’s new job came along. Life happens, and while it would be a drag and an inconvenience, it would be just one of those things. But taking the job knowing you were going to turn around and resign in a few months is different…it’s such a huge investment of time to hire a new person and get them up to speed. I wouldn’t be able to do it.

      Plus, if you’re honest with the interviewer, and explain why you’re withdrawing your name from consideration, chances are they’ll appreciate your candor and that’s what they’ll remember about you. It will speak to your integrity. Professional communities are small…you never know who might know who.

    6. Anna*

      I think in this case you can’t even wait for the offer; you should probably withdraw from consideration. You would be doing them a great disservice to accept a job knowing full well you have no intention of being there for six months much less a year and chances are good if they did make an offer and you told them you were leaving in four months, they would rescind the offer anyway. It would be really dishonest to accept it knowing what you know.

      In the mean time, can you look at temp jobs to fill in the four months?

    7. Future Analyst*

      Any chance you can do the new job long distance from the new state? Or arrange to stay in your current city longer? I know long-distance relationships are hard, but if it means you get to stay and do something you love, even just for a year or three, maybe consider that. I don’t think that accepting the job if you’ll only be there 4 months is great: it usually takes at least 6 months to get fully up to speed and trained anyway. Sorry, this is a rough situation.

      1. Maple*

        Telecommuting/distance is probably not on the table for this job as it involves collaborative work with local departments and some local travel, and we are moving 8+ hours away. And with a small child, neither of us are eager to go long-distance in that sense either. Thanks, though.

    8. orchidsandtea*

      I’d lay it on the table when they make the offer. “Here’s my interest and what I think I can bring to the table, here’s my situation, here are two proposals for how I could help the organization.” A short-term contract wouldn’t be dishonest, and they may well be interested in something like that. Or if you’d be willing/able to stay a few extra months, or if there’s any chance they’d be interested in a remote worker (and navigating the out-of-state legal challenges).

      Unless being jobless will actually impact your family’s ability to eat, I think it’d be better to do things above-board. But your need to eat does come first, and you can do a lot in four months. Not everything — it’s a different experience than working somewhere long term. I just did a three-month stint before maternity leave. So it’s possible.

    9. INeedANap*

      Is this a job that might allow telecommuting or otherwise maybe be adaptable to your new situation?

      Personally, I would just be honest with them: “I very much want to accept this job offer, but during the interview process my husband accepted his own offer and we’ll be moving out-of-state so he can take that opportunity. Is this something that we could make work for this position? If not, I understand that it simply may not make sense to move forward here.”

      1. Uzumaki Naruto*

        This.

        Don’t decide for them that they don’t want you (although they probably don’t). But do be very clear about your situation and the limitations that imposes. Even though it’s unlikely, who knows, maybe they want a short-term contract or would be cool with you working remotely or…

    10. IowaGirl*

      I totally think you can take the job. For one thing 4 months is a long time away and it’s *possible* your husband’s job won’t materialize for some reason. You can consider what to do closer to moving date – negotiate a remote working arrangement? “commute” to hubby’s new city on weekends until you’re sure his new job and location is a good fit?* just quit, because the job wasn’t that spectacular after all? You will have options once both of you are working!

      *Living apart sucks, but sometimes it’s worth it for a small amount of time. Just don’t set yourself up to feel like one of you can’t leave at some point.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        How would you feel if you spent tons of time and energy hiring and training someone who knew the entire time that they were only staying for 4 months? That is a shitty thing to do.

      3. Tuckerman*

        It’s not ideal, but if they HAVE to start generating income NOW, she may not have much of a choice. Yes, she will burn her bridge. Yes, it is not a nice thing to do. But, it can take a long time to get hired into even low paying temp positions. If they can’t make ends meet any other way, she should take it.

        1. Anxa*

          Yes, it is not a nice thing to do. But, it can take a long time to get hired into even low paying temp positions. If they can’t make ends meet any other way, she should take it.

          This is where I’m conflicted. There’s this mythical thinking that you can walk into a fast-food job or retail or a temp agency. It can take over 4 months to find a job like that. I don’t think it’s right to take the job, but if they won’t be able to pay their basic needs without any job at all, then I don’t think it’s unethical move in a capitalistic society.

      4. Anna*

        Generally it’s better to make decisions based on what you know. Maple knows that their husband has accepted a job and will be starting in July. It doesn’t make sense to accept an offer because the job in another state *might* not happen. Maple has no reason to believe it won’t.

    11. Observer*

      If you get an offer, ask if remote work is an option. If not, you cannot take the job – it will come back to haunt you in a big way, since any employer who hears about it (and they probably will!) will not want to touch you with a 10 foot pole – and anyone in that organization who ever works with you in any capacity will remember this.

      Start looking for a job in your new locale and look for a temporary position where you are.

    12. Clinical Social Worker*

      Volunteer. Take time to pack before you move. Start your job search in the new state. You will have PLENTY to do. Maybe even go for walks and have fun with friends before you move.

      I’ve been in your situation and it sucks to be unemployed when you’re used to being the breadwinner. But you’ll get through this.

    13. Overeducated*

      Just wanted to say that almost the same thing happened to me, and I was kind of sad to get an offer for a stretch job, which I did turn down. I wish i could say i found something better, i found something good enough but am still looking. It just sucks when the timing of your job search (or their extremely long interview and decision process) winds up like that.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      This is a little bit of a crazy idea. Why not call them up/email them and tell them you must withdraw. Explain. Then tell them that if they had a temp position for four months you would be very happy to help them out.

      I would seriously consider doing this because I would tell me, “I have nothing to lose and everything to gain.” And, “We will never get what we don’t ask for.”

  12. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I have a coworker who cannot or will not turn off her phone sounds. At work, everyone uses their phones to listen to things when working alone, and so hers is always out.

    Grr.

    1. Tempest*

      I feel you. I have one that watches annoying youtube videos with the sound on and is constantly glued to the phone in general.

    2. CorporationDowntown*

      OMG, I have a new coworker who won’t put their phone on silent and they get notifications every 15-20 seconds, so all I hear all day is “DING DING DING”.

      We just acquired a few new people and they all sit near me (we’re in cubes), so I’m not even sure who the culprit is to ask them to silence their phone.

      1. ThatGirl*

        There is someone within earshot of me whose phone alert is a sound from Overwatch, and it gets very distracting.

      2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Why not go around to all of them, then? “I’m not sure that it’s your phone, but I’ve been hearing a lot of phone notifications. Would you mine putting yours on silent when you’re at your desk?”

        1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

          I definitely know who it is, but she claims she does not know how to turn it off, or variously that she won’t. We all have law degrees and so management is big on “solve your own disputes.”

          2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            Have you tried the subtly condescending “Oh, well then I’d be HAPPY to show you!” and point out the switch on the side of the dang phone?

            1. NaoNao*

              Well, not defending the boor, but it’s not a switch like on a physical telephone with bell (landline style). One must either:
              Turn volume of all notifications completely off (“ringer volume”)–and you can use buttons for this, but it’s not a big “off” switch on the phone like it is with landlines
              or
              Turn off “push” notifications one by one in the settlings of your phone

              for cell phones.

              1. Rusty Shackelford*

                Actually, on an iPhone, it IS a physical switch, on the side of the phone. You mean other phones don’t have a physical mute button?

                1. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

                  My android doesn’t have a button or switch that is just for mute. It has a volume button on the side of the phone that in order to mute, all sounds go to silent. I can go in to individual apps and either turn off the push notifications or set them to silent.

          4. Not So NewReader*

            “Oh, I can help, here, let’s google those instructions right now. We can print them out so you will have them.” Said in a cheerful, helpful voice of course.

    3. BadPlanning*

      I hear you (hee, or don’t want to hear you!). Sometimes I go on bus tour type vacation and the number of people who have all the sounds turned on on their tablets is really annoying. I will play this game…and you must listen to every zip, zat, ding, dash with me.

      But I’m a mute everything sort of person.

      1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

        I mute as well. In fact, I specifically purchased a fitness tracker that has the notification option. So now it vibrates when I need to wake up, when I get a phone call (and displays the name or number of who is calling), and when I get a text message (name of person and start of text message). I haven’t turned my phone off mute for at least six months, even though I have awesome ringtones.

        1. Delta Delta*

          I used to work with someone who had one of those. It was so disruptive – every conversation with her was interrupted constantly with her checking her wrist every 20 seconds to read her texts.

      1. HYDR*

        My boss next to me has his computer set on the LOUDEST setting, and every time an email comes in….there is a chime. Webinars are on FULL BLAST. It’s crazy.

        Has anyone seen the movie Trolls? It’s super cute, and they all have ‘hug time’ when a ding goes off. Every time my text alert goes off at home, when my phone is not on silence, my kids and I all yell “HUG TIME”. That could be an option ;) I bet they would silence their phones rather quickly! haha!

        2. Witty Nickname*

          My 4 year old’s best friend got her a Trolls watch for her birthday. She presses a button and it chimes and says ‘HUG TIME!!!’ It’s adorable, even if it was overplayed within 5 minutes of her getting it. :)

    5. Elizabeth West*

      I used to have one whose ringtones were a dog barking, a crazy laugh, and that damn Kung Fu Fighting song. And she never turned her sound down and took personal calls all day long. Plus her voice was really loud. Only my most obnoxious soundtracks–think Daft Punk or the Mad Max: Fury Road one– would drown her out. I was SO happy when she moved away.

    6. PatPat*

      The past few times we’ve had local news stories of note, like an active shooter or escaped convict, a coworker will pull up the live news coverage on her computer, set her speakers on loud, THEN LEAVE HER CUBICLE. We don’t work in law enforcement or any industry that needs to know that stuff at work, either.

    7. Witty Nickname*

      Ooooh, that would annoy me so much. I can’t even stand sounds on my own phone (I keep the ringer on vibrate, all games on mute, etc. I’ll listen to music or watch videos with sound…sometimes. I like that Facebook has started adding captions to videos if you watch them right in the newsfeed instead of clicking on them).

      I also keep my computer on mute, unless I have to turn the sound on for a training or something.

    9. Rocketship*

      UGH. I’m so with you on this! And the weird thing is, we have an open office and lots of folks leave the volume on, so we will hear random notifications going off throughout the day (my own included). Part of that is kind of work-necessary; there’s about a 50/50 chance we’ll get contacted on our cell phones vs. desk phones, even though almost all of us don’t have company-provided cell phones. We do our best, in general, to keep our volumes set below “dull roar.”

      But this one guy. THIS ONE GUY.

      Ringer set to full volume at all times, and it’s the most jarring possible version of a vintage actual-phone-ringing sound. Then he picks up at his desk and proceeds to have conversations at HIS full volume. Which is surprisingly loud. Most of us in the office can hear him. Over our headphones.

      THERE ARE CONFERENCE ROOMS. HE DOESN’T USE THEM EVEN FOR PERSONAL CALLS.

      Also HR has already spoken to him about it. That corrected the behavior for exactly 3 days. Then back to the shouting, and the rest of us responding to his half of the conversation to each other over our chat app. I think this one guy has probably dropped office productivity by 25%.

      Anyway, I can commiserate. Is it possible you could ask your coworker to just turn the volume down a little while she’s at work? Or use headphones? I am baffled by the number of colleagues represented in this thread (who I am extrapolating out into a percentage of the world at large) that are apparently unaware of headphones. Maybe there needs to be a public awareness campaign.

      1. Wanna-Alp*

        Is it ok that a water sprayer immediately jumps to mind? I have visions of a wet air puff just near him, and then he moves in the opposite direction, so you end up shepherding him in the direction of the conference room…. Then again, with the recent assassination and the method used, maybe not.

  13. SaviourSelf*

    I need a gut check – are my expectations out of whack?

    I am interviewing potential Executive Assistants. Mid last week I emailed several asking for their availability for Monday or Tuesday to do a phone screen. Last Friday, I emailed each that had responded with a time within the availability they’d provided and asked them to confirm or suggest another time if the suggestion no longer worked for them.

    Four of them did not confirm so I sent them another email the morning of the interview suggesting another time later in the week since I had not heard back. Two of them emailed back angry that I was rescheduling…

    Should I have gone ahead and called them at the original time I suggested despite their not responding? As a job seeker, which would you prefer?

    1. Squeeble*

      It seems like you were pretty clear in your request that they confirm the time. Maybe it would have been best to say “If it still works for you, I’ll call you on Wednesday at 2pm,” which doesn’t outright require a response, but still. Their not confirming the time, and then getting angry about you rescheduling (?!?!) are two things that don’t bode well for an executive assistant.

    2. Murphy*

      I would have sent another email that morning saying something like “I’m assuming that 2pm today is OK since I haven’t heard otherwise from you?” rather than simply suggesting another time. They should have confirmed with you though.

    3. Alucius*

      It doesn’t seem out of whack to me to request a confirmation…and to take absence of a confirmation as a signal to reschedule. Presuming you were clear in your request for a confirmation, you might be getting some data about your applicants’ attention to detail.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      With EAs, you really need someone who’s going to be flawless at this kind of thing (both scheduling and being detail-oriented). These candidates aren’t.

      2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Exactly what I was going to say. You want someone flawless at following up with schedule changes and meeting times. Hell, I’d reschedule every interview just as a sneaky little magic sorting hat, if I were looking for an EA.

        (actually I wouldn’t, that’s game-playing, but it still gives you useful information.)

      3. SaviourSelf*

        Yeah, this was my thought. I don’t want them handling the President’s calendar in such a fashion.

        I’m definitely passing on them but want to make sure my process is one that is friendly to job seekers as well.

      4. Karen K*

        I wouldn’t chase after anyone in this situation. AAM is right. If they are still interested, they have a funny way of showing it. If they’re not, it’s just rude not to respond and take oneself out of the running.

        Either way, not good.

        1. Squeeble*

          Yeah. As an admin myself, if I got furious every time someone needed to reschedule a meeting, I’d never be happy.

          1. The Rat-Catcher*

            The anger about rescheduling might be because if they are currently employed, they may have taken time off for the interview.
            However, does not excuse the lack of confirming the appointment, and these people are probably not great candidate

            1. The Rat-Catcher*

              And it still probably wasn’t a great idea to express that anger to the point that it came through in an email. Vent privately.

      5. Parenthetically*

        Yes, my thoughts exactly. I was a lousy executive assistant because I am very Go With The Flow and Not Into Details — do not hire me or someone like me to be your executive assistant, everyone will be miserable, 0/10 would not recommend.

      6. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Agreed. If they can’t follow simple instructions to set up an interview, they are probably not going to be a good fit in that role.

      7. turquoisecow*

        Yeah, agreed. If they can’t respond quickly to their personal emails to schedule a call, I’m not sure they’d be really good at doing this in a work capacity. If it was any other job, I might be more lenient, but for an executive assistant, I’d want someone with attention to these details.

    5. Lily in NYC*

      I hope you are no longer interviewing the ones who showed anger. They will be trouble if you hire them. Our boss overruled the other EA and I when she was hiring an admin – we warned her against hiring her because she acted frustrated by having to take a grammar test (and she didn’t do well). The boss was leaving for vacation and didn’t want to deal with continuing the search and made her an offer. She lasted 2 months. She was a liar and had terrible writing skills. Her boss used to get so upset with the typos and I wanted to yell “WE WARNED YOU ABOUT THIS AND YOU DIDN’T LISTEN”.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        Something similar happened many years ago at a former employer with a student worker hire. The boss overruled me and the office manager about hiring a student to be a clerical assistant (because the student was already part of an unpaid peer organization in the office). Everyone came to regret that decision because of the student employee’s absenteeism, drama-seeking behavior, and lack of focus on her work when she was there. To the boss’s credit, she acknowledged that she goofed by insisting. And it eventually led to uncoupling the volunteer positions from the paid clerical positions (in other words, participation in one did not guarantee selection for the other). Said a lot about the boss who admitted her mistake instead of doubling down.

    6. Linda*

      I have done administrative work for almost my entire life and one thing I know for certain is if they could not follow those simple instructions you don’t want to hire them and an angry response is really messed up. If this is their best behavior I’d hate to see how they treat people after they have the job. You’ve dodged a bullet here. Don’t interview either of them.

    7. zora*

      As an EA and job seeker, keep doing what you are doing. It is good to ask them to confirm, and if they don’t follow that one instruction, the email you are sending about rescheduling makes sense. Then, if they are apologetic and agree to reschedule, ok, maybe that’s ok. If they get angry?? Well, they’re helping you narrow the pool with their actions.

      One thought: have you checked your spam filter to make sure their confirmation email didn’t get stuck? Our work email was waayyy over filtering for a while, even emails in the middle of an ongoing thread.

    8. Whats In A Name*

      I think by not confirming they self-selected out of the process. Maybe not purposefully, but with an EA I would think that attention-to-detail and confirming meetings (even if not asked to) would be a basic expectation of the job. These candidates did not show that quality.

    9. Audiophile*

      Not confirming isn’t okay. I’ve been on the reverse side a lot lately, I’ll speak with a company and they’ll say that they will follow up with an email confirming the time and no email is ever sent. I’ve finally started calling and asking for confirmation before heading out the door.

      I know people are busy and they may forget but, nothing is worse than arriving at an interview to discover they’ve forgotten you were coming and now have to scramble to find someone. Thankfully that hasn’t happened in a long time.

    10. Morgan*

      As an assistant, their reaction was inappropriate. If you’re actively applying for jobs, then you need to your email on a regular basis. I check mine at least three times a day. You’d think they want to make a good first impression here. Obviously they aren’t interested and it would be hard to take them serious at this point. Constant calendar changes are part of the job.

  14. Mike*

    I have a gigantic interview next week to move into a senior level engineering role (with a potential 25-40% pay increase!) with a large corporation.

    I’ve been preparing like crazy, but I’m still super nervous. They specifically stated they want the STAR method used, so I’ve been thinking about past situations, and turning them stories that fit the job description.

    But man, I’m sooooo nervous. I’ve wanted out of this current position for over a year, made it to the final step 4 different times, and still not gotten an offer. This is perfect opportunity to get into a growing sector with a great large org. with awesome benefits (unlimited PTO, free healthcare, etc).

    3. Dzhymm, BfD*

      Interesting… several jobs ago I was trained as an interviewer with the STAR method (part of a larger discipline called “Targeted Selection”) and we never “STAR” or anything like that to our candidates. Rather, it was up to the *interviewer* to review the candidate’s background and ask questions to elicit responses about their experiences, past performance, etc. My approach was, rather than dryly asking the questions as listed, to try and weave them into a narrative about the candidate’s experience. HR was blown away by how smoothly I did this :)

      1. Dzhymm, BfD*

        “and we never *mentioned* “STAR” or anything like that…” can we get an edit function please? :)

      2. Mike*

        I agree it seemed strange that they sent me a document outlining the STAR method and how they prefer answers in that format.

        I already used it in the past for the most part, but I REALLY want this job, so I’ve been working on examples hardcore.

    4. Whiskers on Kittens*

      Our collective fingers are crossed for you! It sounds as if you are preparing, do make some time to also relax, if you can, over the weekend. You don’t want your brain too crammed before your big day.

  15. Your opinion?*

    I’m just looking for opinions. This is LONG and has some side stories for explanations. I bet your glad you clicked on open thread! I didn’t write Alison specifically because all is said and done – nothing can be changed. I’m just curious if others would have done things differently. End result of my story I am not looking to get anyone fired, just frustrated.

    I am a professional business woman in my early 40s.

    There is a chain store, Teapots Inc. Teapots is one of those all-in-one stores with many departments including a grocery area.

    Teapots has a main check out area as well as a few (rarely used) checkout areas throughout the store. One of the benefits of Teapots is a consulting/ checkout area related to the grocery section that one can go over ingredients in food items for those with special dietary needs. The area is staffed by nutritionists. Basically you may use it as a checkout, but a majority of the time it is used only for nutritional references.

    Every year the surrounding towns join together for a winter festival, a busy time for Teapots. I go in on the eve of festival night. Chaos is in the store – 3 of the 7 cash registers are down, there was a delivery mix up, employees called in sick and a snow storm was predicted. Despite everything frenzied going on things were pretty organized. Unfortunately the lines were long so people were waiting 10-20 minutes to checkout. The staff even handed out cookies to those waiting on line!

    Due to a food allergy, I wanted to check something out with the nutrition consultant (no, it could not wait for a slower time). The line was 15 people deep since the area was now being used for checkout and nutrition. I was about 4 people in, and in front of me was a woman with a baby and a man with a physical disability. A cashier (looked to be in his mid 20s) from the main checkout area was moved to the nutrition area. All of us on line noticed that the main area cashier kept letting/ sneaking his friends to move to the front of the line. It was done in a way that people on line wouldn’t notice or couldn’t say anything until the friends’ transactions was being processed. People were frustrated.

    When I got up to the checkout, one of the nutritionists (not the main area cashier) checked out my items. As professionally as possible I said that this was not a good scenario- people were annoyed with the line cutting, and at least 2 people in the line should have been given a priority given the wait time. The nutritionist cashier (approximately late 20s-early 30s in age) made every excuse possible and told me to deal with it. Her justification was that the whole store was short staffed and the main area cashier was helping out the nutrition department, he could set his own rules!

    I was near the front of the line when all this occurred. I only saw the line cutting happen once, but as I was walking out you could hear others mumbling about the same situation happening more than once. Other than the one time, I have no way to confirm the other instances.

    The day after the festival I called the Teapots store manager and told her of the situation. The manager was appalled, apologized profusely and said this was not normal operating procedure. Apparently I’m not the only one who called about this, but I was the first person the manager had time to speak with. By the time I called, the manager was already looking into the situation. I’m satisfied with the outcome that management is taking steps to review the situation.

    I go into work the next day and apparently a coworker saw me at Teapots that night. Coworker too was venting about the nutrition checkout line. I mentioned I had called the manager. Coworker said something along the lines of – I hope the main area and nutritionist cashiers get fired.

    That statement has me paranoid! I don’t want to cost anyone their job!!!!! Given my business background (admittedly not in retail or direct management of staff), it never even occurred to me when I called that the cashiers could be fired. I thought at most they would get spoken to, reprimanded, given a warning, re-trained. I only called to prevent this from happening again. I even told the manager it was not necessary to follow up with me, this was an informal discussion.

    Do you think I cost two people their jobs? Did I do the right thing reporting the situation to the manager? Should I have kept my opinion to myself?

    If you are still with me reading this, thanks!

    1. Brandy*

      You completely did the right thing. The woman shouldn’t have told you to “deal with it” and if her attitude, not your call, cost her her job, so be it. The cashier shouldn’t be sneaking people into lines either. That is not right and their actions will get them into trouble not you calling. Im sure others have since called and complained also. There is no excuse for what all happened. But its not on you.

      1. turquoisecow*

        Yeah, I wouldn’t have said that thing exactly, but in truth, she probably didn’t know what else to say. The manager on duty might have been on a register themselves, and she didn’t have the power to tell the other cashier that what he was doing was wrong. In addition, calling over a manager to deal with it would not have helped – it would have only made the situation even worse, by making everyone wait even longer for the manager to come over.

        Calling the store afterward about the problem was definitely the right thing to do. If the offending cashier has a history of such behaviors, he deserves to be fired, and the story is probably easily verifiable by security cameras. In either case, Your opinion? shouldn’t feel responsible for that.

    2. Tempest*

      I highly doubt they got fired over this if it was the first instance of this kind the manager had to deal with. If this is a pattern of behaviour, you didn’t get them fired, they did it to themselves by not doing a better job. Unless you make it habit of calling the manager for every little thing everywhere you go, I wouldn’t lose any sleep over this. Blatantly letting your friends cut a long line repeatedly is sort of asking for people to complain about you but if this business is staffed with a lot of young people they’re likely used to dealing with a pot luck of work eithics so its doubtful they jump straight to ‘fire him’ after every complaint.

      2. SophieChotek*

        I agree. Like others say, if they did get fired/reprimanded, it was on them–and it seems unlikely; in all the retail situations I’ve worked in, except for outright theft, it’s pretty darn hard to get fired (!) …need a pretty long trail of issues…
        Not to mention it must have been egregious enough for others to also call in.

    3. Stellaaaaa*

      In all honesty, those cashiers probably won’t even be spoken to. The checkout lines at places like Target and Walmart are always a mess and cutting is rampant – it’s the kind of thing that’s bound to happen when you have people buying one bottle of shampoo and people buying a week’s worth of groceries using the same checkout lines. There’s no such thing as “priority checkout” if you have a baby with you in Walmart – everyone in the grocery store has a kid with them. The store most likely has no policy for something like that and the cashiers will probably just lie and say that they didn’t notice people cutting the line, since it happens all the time.

    4. MoinMoin*

      If it was the first time the manager has ever had an issue with the employees it’s not likely they were fired over it (and if they were that’s more likely bad management). If it’s part of a larger pattern, maybe. But it’s not like you lied or created a huge fuss demanding they be fired or anything. You made a valid complaint. Regardless of outcome, you don’t have a reason to feel guilty.

    5. Lily in NYC*

      I wouldn’t be surprised if the person you spoke to was just telling you what she thought you wanted to hear. It seems like cashiers are often told not to confront line cutters (which is one of my biggest pet peeves). Then again, maybe this time is different because the cashier was actively helping people cut. But I doubt anyone will get fired – a warning at most.

      1. Stellaaaaa*

        Yeah, in places like Target and Walmart there’s actually a policy against confronting people who violate the “honor system” of the express line. The cashiers have to ring up the person who’s standing there no matter what.

        1. Rebecca Too*

          Right. This irritates me. Why have the “Express Lane: 12 Items or Less” sign if you won’t enforce it? I went to the grocery store on my lunch break to get a salad from the salad bar , I got in the self checkout Express Lane, and a woman with 43 (yep, I counted. ) items was in front of me. After I found another (shorter!) line, I asked the manager why they bother with the signs if they won’t enforce them, and she said “Actually, the sign is more of a suggestion.”

          1. Your opinion?*

            That would just have me annoyed, especially if it happens more than once. I would email corporate or the owner.

          2. EngineerInNL*

            I am the type of person that would probably call them out “oh you must have noticed the sign this is for 12 items and under only” but some people are shameless

          3. SophieChotek*

            That’s interesting…I’ve actually been called out by cashiers…I unintentionally wandered into the express lane of X items or less. To be fair, they checked me out, but they made me feel pretty bad in the process.

      2. Liane*

        Just like most other businesses, retailers generally have an escalating disciplinary process. So a one-off complaint, or even several in an evening, isn’t going to get someone fired, unless:
        -the employee already has a series of documented issues (same or different) in a given time period. At OldJob/Famed Retailer, it was a “verbal” warning, X written warnings in a rolling year, a final warning, then termination. OR
        -the one-off was really, really egregious. If one of them told you, “#$^%, if you’d just STFU and deal with the #$% lines, you’d’ve already been outta here, ” for example.

    6. LCL*

      I think reporting to the manager was the right thing to do. I think complaining to the other cashier was a waste of time.
      I don’t think your actions will cost anyone their job, but it will result in increased oversight for the cashier, who may indeed be fired. If he is taking extra steps to ensure he rings up his friends, odds are he is dirty. He isn’t ringing up everything, or ringing up at the wrong price, or doing the cash/credit refund scam. Or selling liquor to the underage group.

    7. Merida Ann*

      Even if they did get fired, YOU did not cost them their jobs. THEY cost themselves their own jobs by their behavior and attitude. You are not responsible for the way they acted towards you and you are not responsible for any consequences that come from their actions. You simply reported a situation that needed to be corrected and gave the business the opportunity to improve their services – whether by retraining those employees or whatever other response they take.

    8. Kyrielle*

      What the others said, but also, *other people also called to complain*.

      Whatever consequences land on those two are a) because of their actions and b) would have anyway, because you weren’t the only one to report the issue.

    9. Lo*

      I am you. I do this same sort of thing and then FREAK OUT that I may has cost someone their job. But I do want to focus you directly on something you said. Your coworker simply stated that they wanted someone fired! You talked to a conscientious and welcoming manager, who clearly cares about the client (you!). Hopefully this is a manager who then in turn cares about their staff–perhaps they will get spoken to, and perhaps they will get a warning, but hopefully this is a manager who understands that this is just a moment of major stress and thus the person you spoke to took it out on you (ick). It sucks, you did the right thing (subjective — but you did a good thing in that they DO NOT want to lose business and that’s the managers job to focus on), move on. Plant a tree and say something kind to someone, if you need to do good things to clear your conscience :D

      (seriously, that’s what I do when I need to)

    10. Isben Takes Tea*

      Also: *If* the manager deems this to be a fireable offence, THE CASHIERS GOT THEMSELVES FIRED.

      You cannot “cost” someone their job simply by telling the truth about *their own* inappropriate behavior. They cost themselves the job by behaving inappropriately.

    11. Your opinion?*

      Thanks for the support and confirmation I did the right thing.

      To clarify a few things… While Teapots is a chain store, we are located in a small town. This location relies on its reputation – we are close enough to a major city with more shopping options but far enough away that it is a trip to get to. I agree with some that this might be brushed under the rug or not even dealt with. However, the manager has been here for years and is known for running a tight ship. Based on past situations (with other customers) all feedback seems to be taken seriously.

      As for me and my post… At work the assignments I manage, I deal with a few people who manage their own teams. Team members might be helping me out for a day or so. I make sure to get to know the teams but I have nothing to do with them as a supervisor. My theory is everyone makes career mistakes and you learn from them. In my personal non-work life, I usually would just go with the flow with this type situation, but the “don’t care” attitudes from both cashiers had me fuming. In addition the cashiers were not high schoolers just learning the ropes, but a few years into the work force. This scenario was just out of the norm for me I kept second guessing myself.

      Overall Teapots is usually managed very well. I will continue shopping there…. Hopefully not having to deal with these cashiers though!

    12. Newby*

      All you did was inform them of a situation at the store that upset you. You did not demand any action in particular (other than I’m assuming a request that something change to prevent this from happening again). I had a friend that called to complain about wait time at a store once. They started to actually follow their policy to make sure that they had at least two cash registers open if the line exceeded three people. The problem was solved and I’m pretty sure no one was fired.

      1. Your opinion?*

        Thanks Newby! It just never occurred to me that firing someone would be an option. It’s an annoying issue but just needs to be dealt with.

    13. really*

      I actually ended up getting an employee at a local grocery fired without actually talking to anyone any management. He was bagging and talking to the cashier. No problem except for the curse words. On my way out I told him that he should be careful of his language because it was inappropriate and could get him into trouble. In the parking lot a manger stopped my to ask about what had happened and I explained. Turned out this employee had been told on more than one occasion that his language was out of line. This was the last straw and they fired him. So if any one got fired it most likely was not because of this one incident.

    14. Observer*

      I would be very surprised if anyone got fired. But, you did the right thing – this is the kind of thing that can cost a business money, and just not right for customers.

      If the cashier at the nutritionist station is actually the one who people consult, you can be sure that they are not firing him just for this one incident – it’s too costly.

    15. The Rat-Catcher*

      In customer service, complaints are unlikely to result in an instant firing unless they are of certain egregious nature (think sexual harassment, racial slurs directed at customers, etc). They may not even address it; if they do, it will likely not be in a formal setting. If this is part of a pattern of behavior for an employee, then yes, maybe some action will be taken – but that’s because of the pattern, not this one instance. Managers have a legitimate business need to know when their employees act this way.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      Some retailers are harsh. Some fire immediately for stuff like this. I think the worst retailers are the ones who torment the employee over the complaint for months on end. “Remember 5 months ago that lady complained about you? So now you are not going to get your vacation time/raise/etc.” ugh. I’d rather be fired than listen to that garbage.

      I think it is wise going forward to realize that it is possible to get people fired when a complaint is filed, even for very slight transgressions.

      That said, you did the right thing. This was not something that impacted just you, had you not reported it, probably someone else might have.

      But going into your concern, IF this person did get fired, hopefully they learned from their mistake. While it’s good that you don’t want people getting fired, in the end it’s the boss’ judgement call as to what happens next. And that is not under your control, no matter how vehemently you stress your concern that the person does not get fired.

      I just reported someone this week. Failure to tighten the lug bolts on my new tires. I could have been killed. I have no interest in getting the person fired. But if they do get fired, then so be it. It’s the boss’ call.

  16. margarets*

    I posted last week about having suicidal thoughts about my job search. At least one commenter here asked for an update this week, so here it is.

    I’m doing a lot better thanks to the replies I got, and a bit of a lucky break. There was a networking meeting for people in my field this week, and the topic was resumes and jobsearching. The guest speaker part was very bad – just generic advice and blank looks when asked more nuanced questions. But one she left and people could really talk, out came the war stories. Rudeness in interviews even came up, without any prompting from me. (One woman was told in an interview that her 1.5 page resume was too long and the interviewer had not wanted to meet her but his HR department insisted.) The job market in my field is challenging but not disastrous right now, and because it’s a niche quite a bit of the job market is “hidden”.

    Nearly everyone was concerned that other factors were hindering their job search, like being the wrong race, gender, age, nationality, etc. or having the wrong “look” – and it was a very diverse group! The guest speaker strongly emphasized the importance of “fit” with the culture of any organization, weirdly sort of placing the blame on jobseekers for applying to places where they won’t fit in. That didn’t go over well. I could go on a long rant about how if employers are ultimately basing their decisions on personal preferences, gut feelings and superficial qualities, then society has got to lay off hassling jobseekers about their resume format, cover-letter phrasing, handshakes, etc.

    Right now there are a couple promising postings so I’m working on my applications for that.

    2. FishCakesHurrah*

      Job searching for 13 months was one of the most demoralizing and crushing experiences of my life. You have my sympathies. I agree that it feels like a big pile of BS sometimes.

      1. margarets*

        Thanks. It helps to know that even a long search can end up with a good result. I definitely feel that social pressure that your “success” is not only measured by the job you get, but how fast.

    4. kbeers0su*

      Glad you’re feeling better this week! Hearing other people’s horror stories is nice because it can make you feel less crazy…but it doesn’t necessarily give you confidence in the process given how many horror stories are out there. Kind of a catch 22… But take care of yourself and good luck!

    5. Alton*

      I’m glad you had the opportunity to commiserate with other people who have been struggling. It can help sometimes to see that it’s not just you. I wish you the best of luck.

      I was job hunting for two years at one point, and I can relate to how it wears down your confidence and can make you feel like you lack options. I struggled with some suicidal thoughts, too.

      Please take care of yourself. Job hunting is demoralizing, but it doesn’t determine your worth.

    6. Bad Candidate*

      I’m glad you’re feeling better. Someone once told me I should write a book about my job search, given it’s length. I said that would be the most depressing book ever written! LOL But maybe at least it would help people feel validated that it’s not just them.

    8. Yorick*

      I’m glad you’re feeling better. Keep your head up. I was job searching in academia for years and it was extremely demoralizing. I finally ended up outside of academia. My job is really great, I think it’s much better than the academic jobs I wasn’t getting. But I wouldn’t have applied for it if it hadn’t been year 4.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Yeah, I am glad you mentioned that everyone has something that they feel is holding them back. One of the reasons I like reading here is Alison’s advice helps to over come some of that.

      Keep reading here where the GOOD job hunting advice is. You may want to consider abandoning “those OTHER” job advice places on the net and in real life. It’s too confusing, depressing and DIS-empowering. Yep, the advice is so bad, it takes away our power to determine our course in life. Seek out advice that is pro-active and tells you what you CAN do to help yourself. Advice such as, “make sure you are wearing the correct color socks” is not going to help and it WILL distract you from what is actually important.

      Sending good vibes your way. Let us know how it’s going for you.

      1. MSquared*

        Just want to say that I’m in the same boat – been applying for positions for 8 months now and getting absolutely nowhere despite my strong resume, experience, and educational background. It’s been causing a spike in my depression ever since and yes, I have been suicidal at times. I at least have a job right now but I absolutely hate it and it’s really demoralizing that I’m stuck and despite actively applying for jobs I can’t get out.

        1. margarets*

          Had to respond to this because I’m basically you, only I haven’t been looking as long. It’s HARD. Last week I wrote something along the lines that I didn’t want jobhunting advice, I wanted to someone to affirm that “this situation is a meat grinder and that’s why you feel bad”. And in some ways it’s harder when you’re already doing everything right (“right”), because then where do you go? You might find it worthwhile to look up my post on last week’s open thread because there were some very insightful replies. From a fellow job-seeker: Hang in there. Solidarity!

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Keep reading here, MSquared. It’s different here. It can help with your outlook on your setting.

      2. margarets*

        Yes, I must seriously limit the amount of time I spend on jobsearch advice sites and forums, and just generally compartmentalize my jobsearch. It tends to feed anxiety and fear more than help.

    10. SeekingBetter*

      I’m happy to hear you’re feeling better this week. Hope you hear back from the promising postings!

    11. Jean who seeks to be Ingenious*

      Thanks for your update. I’m glad to hear that the networking meeting was encouraging. I’m also glad that your depression has lifted somewhat.

      Yes,a job search can be enormously discouraging–as well as demoralizing, depressing, and dreadfully hard on one’s self-image. One of the ways to defeat this downward spiral is to find ways to make the experience encouraging, uplifting, cheerful, and good for one’s self-image. This doesn’t mean losing touch with reality. It means learning how to sustain a positive outlook in the middle of the stress and uncertainty.

      I was away from email this past weekend, which is why this response comes so late.
      Continue to apply to promising postings and to take good care of yourself.
      Good vibes: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  17. Elle*

    Question: how much does your university grades matter in terms of strengthening your candidacy, and should one bother making a point about any of it?

    (Obviously I’m only talking about professions that require a relevant degree, I know that in many sectors this sort of issue won’t come up at all.)

    For instance (this is UK-based, but I’m sure there’s an equivalent system in the US), if someone graduates with first class honours (assuming it’s a good degree from a reputable institution etc.), it’ll probably stand out on a resume. But if you get a 2:1, is it even worth listing? I’ve heard people basically say that anything below that is worthless, so maybe you’d want to differentiate yourself from that? Similarly with postgrad grades, if you get anything short of a distinction, is it even worth mentioning (would listing a merit grade be like saying: ‘look at me, I’m average’)?

    The reason I ask is because I’ve been debating this issue a bit – in that, how much time/effort should one put into university. If there’s a student who is obviously bright, and can put in a moderate amount of effort to get grades in the ‘2:1’ range, but could presumably get a first if they really dedicated themselves, should they be pushed to do so? If they instead choose to spend time doing more leisure activities – and generally enjoy their university experience more – how much would that potentially hurt them later in the job market?

    1. RavensandOwls*

      Interestingly, I’m an alum from a university that doesn’t do grades, but instead gives written student evaluations at the end of each semester for classes you’re enrolled in. I’ve never once had anyone inquire about it, even though I state that I could furnish evaluations should they want them.

      Similarly, for my two graduate schools, my GPA was excellent. Same story as above – it hasn’t seemed to make much difference at all.

    2. Forecast:Sunshine*

      I may be an outlier, but honestly, I feel like when you’re in school, it’s a job and you should be doing your best at it. If you are making Bs without putting much effort into it, but could be making As if you worked a little harder, I feel like you should push yourself to try to get the As. And it’s mostly just for the principle of the thing, but then again, I am a perfectionist and feel like if you’re not even going to try to do your best then what’s the point of doing it at all.

      The grades may not matter when you’re out in the “real world”, but if you develop a habit of just doing enough to get by in school, I can easily see that transferring over to work. And while that may be fine and good, it’s definitely not an attitude that’s going to make you stand out to your employers. If you don’t care about standing out, then carry on. But if you ever hope to move up or take on additional responsibilities or get paid more, you have to put in more than just “good enough”.

      1. PersistentCat*

        My problem with the general idea that “school is your job” is that school has never been my job. I’ve dropped more classes or ended up failing due to work/school conflicts with a job with lumpy demand cycles or mandatory OT announced well into the quarter that is a direct issue with my class times.

        I mean, it’s great in theory, but when your job pays your tuition AND rent, food, medical, and so forth–well, then school really ISN’T every student’s job.

      2. Yorick*

        You should be learning and acquiring new skills while in school. That means you might not be doing well if you’re getting an easy B. On the other hand, that means you could be doing ok if you’re getting a C in something that you used to be really bad at.

        GPA matters in school because it can keep you from graduating or qualifying for aid. After college, GPA doesn’t matter much at all. Of course, when you’re still early in your career, you may need references from professors, so you need to be performing well enough that they can provide you with a strong reference.

      3. TL -*

        Yeah, I don’t agree with that. I pulled mostly Bs – not because I couldn’t get As, but because to get As, I’d have to have spent a lot more time memorizing than I really wanted to; my memory for details is not good.

        But on the other hand, I learned a lot from my classes, I’m still able to pull and apply concepts I learned into my job – which is directly related to my major – and it gave me a great base to build and specialize from. There was more than one time where I retained information from a class that someone with a better grade didn’t.

        So – did I do my job at school poorly, because I didn’t get a 4.0 (which would have been nigh on impossible given the way my department was set up) or did I do it really well, because I learned what I was supposed to in a very real, meaningful, and applicable way?

      4. AcademiaNut*

        I think it matters a lot what your goals are.

        If you want scholarships, or are even thinking of going to graduate school, then the higher the better as far as grades are, and grades in your major matter more than electives or breadth requirements. I’ve seen students get caught by this – they decide in their final year that they want to go to grad school, not realizing that with a B- average they’re not going to get into any program worth doing, and their desired research career is a non-starter.

        On the other hand, from an employment perspective, I don’t think I’ve seen a systematic difference between someone who was a top student and an okay but not fantastic student. Part of it is that the grades don’t tell you effort – someone who is coasting on Bs when they could get As with effort will have the same transcript as someone who worked hard to get Bs. I’ve actually noticed that the very top students – straight A types – tend to have particular difficulties transitioning to the work world, which operates in a very different way. Going from being a top student to a smart, hard working, but very junior employee, and not getting regular gold-star feed back can be a hard transition.

        Sometimes the effort required to go from Bs to As is not actually an advantage translated into the work world. In university, the expectation is that you will work as hard and long as needed to get the grades, and then fall over in the between term vacations (also that you’re young and able to do nasty things to your sleep schedule without much effort). In the work world, you need to pace yourself to avoid burnout, sometimes with minimal vacation. And sometimes you need to produce work that’s good enough and move to the next thing, rather than working until midnight for a week to go from good enough to perfect. Or you job doesn’t permit overtime, for that matter.

        There’s also lifestyle choices. The contented B student coaster may well decide to go for jobs that they can work conscientiously at, do a good job, and go home at 5. The driven A student may go for the type of career that consumes your life.

        My brother is a successful engineer who made the decision in undergraduate to get decent grades, but not push for As, and to concentrate on the practical aspects of the degree, rather than memorization. He recognized that the work he would need to do to get As would not be relevant to his career, as he had no interest in going to grad school, and what would really count was job performance and his professional certification.

    3. irritable vowel*

      There’s a saying in the US that once you hang your diploma on the wall, no one will know if you graduated first in your class or last from Harvard Medical School (this is mostly about doctors but can be interpreted more broadly). In this country people tend to focus only on where you went to university, not what honors you earned. We have summa cum laude, magna cum laude, and cum laude designations based on grade point average, but they are not given anywhere near the same kind of importance as the level of degree in the UK. It’s not something that really translates. I wonder, though, if what is similar is that your degree level is something that really only matters in the first few years after graduation. I would not expect someone from the UK to still be listing “first class honours” on their resume if they earned their degree 15 years ago, just like I wouldn’t expect someone in the US to say “magna cum laude.” How well you did in school sharply decreases in importance as you gain work experience, because that’s what employers are more interested. So, to answer your question, I think the grades might be more important to getting your first job, but not necessarily beyond that.

    4. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Unless you graduated with honors (in the US, it’d be cum laude, or magna/summa cum laude) don’t even bother. The degree is what matters. Very new graduates sometimes feel the need to put their GPAs on their resume, and it comes of as clueless, like they haven’t gotten the memo that they’ve graduated and nobody cares if they’re on the dean’s list anymore.

      1. Emilia Bedelia*

        I don’t think it’s clueless for new grads to leave the GPA on. Whenever I left my GPA off of my resume, I was asked what it was anyway- it’s very common to be questioned on it. A lot of companies (mostly really big ones, IME) have GPA minimums for internships and entry level jobs as well.

        I went to a school notorious for being very difficult and having a low average GPA, so I left my (relatively high) GPA on. When looked at in combination with with leadership in extracurriculars and multiple research positions and part time jobs, it looked good. Maybe not the only reason I got my job, but having evidence of strong academic performance didn’t hurt.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Disagree almost entirely, speaking as a hiring manager in a highly technical, scientific field. If you’re applying for an internship or job where GPA is specifically asked for, I’d include it of course, but it looks clueless to me in most circumstances. You’re welcome to second-guess that if you wish.

          1. College Career Counselor*

            There are entry level jobs in fields that definitely require applicants to put their GPA on the resume (consulting and finance come to mind–for some finance firms, I’ve seen them ask for SAT scores!). Generally, that’s an industry-specific thing (I’ve never heard of a nonprofit asking for a threshold GPA–although I’m sure there’s one out there doing it), and you likely wouldn’t leave GPA on the resume after you’d had your first job, I wouldn’t think.

            2. Emilia Bedelia*

              Exactly- I’m speaking from my experience applying to engineering entry level positions. I saw GPA minimums on many, many job descriptions. I even got interrogated about my GPA at several interviews (“Can you explain your GPA? Was it one hard class in particular that pulled it down, or more like a consistent pattern?” I don’t know, my school is hard and a B+/A- average is not that bad?)

              After the 1st job it doesn’t matter, but for entry level, it’s often requested.

      2. blackcat*

        I try to this to tell my students who are constantly freaking out about grades (“If I get a C in this class, I’ll never get a job with [specific, big name company]!! I can’t get a C!”).

        They don’t believe me. I wish they did. It would make their college experience a lot better. I get the pre-med students’ obsession with grades, but the ones who just want a job at the end of college? Nope. I do not understand.

        And I don’t have the heart to break it to some of them that if they really wanted that job, the issue is not their grades but where they are going to school. I want to Fancy Pantsy school. I have acquaintances working at Goldman Sachs and similar. A lot of them got shit-faced every weekend and were among the worst students. GPA didn’t matter. Name brand of college mattered, along with the connections provided by that name brand. And that ship already sailed for these kids.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Yep. It’s really jarring to be striving for grades, grades, grades for twelve years, always “I need GPA X to achieve Goal Y” and then….poof! You just have to pass in good standing for most jobs.

          Even getting into grad school didn’t hinge on grades – in my particular field. I had something like a 3.8, nothing special, but a ton of field and lab research experience and a clear idea of my research goals. I hadn’t even taken the GRE yet, and my adviser was like, eh, you’re in.

          1. blackcat*

            Yeah, med school and vet school require high GPAs, but that’s really about it. A *bad* GPA is a problem for many grad schools, but a single C isn’t going to cause that.

            And these students don’t believe me. At all.

            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              I also adore how they’re like, “I can’t get a C in your class, professor NotMad!” And I’m like….”that would be in your wheelhouse, kiddo, so best knock the final paper out of the park.” What are they thinking, that I’m willing to overlook five weeks of solid 7/10s on lab reports and a 72% on the first exam?

              1. Yippp*

                I cried my way into a B in economics. I am not proud of it, but I was on a scholarship that demanded I maintain As and Bs. I am not good at math. Economics was absolutely required. I think the Bs began at 85% and I had an 84%. I got my B and I never got close to a C again the two years I had that scholarship.

            2. TL -*

              Also, being a good student does not make you a good researcher. They’re two very different skills, so stringent GPA requirements for grad school are more of a luxury for programs who have way too many applicants and need some way to parse.

              Test taking is a really important skill for doctors, though.

      3. Alton*

        Though I think some new grads do overestimate how much grades matter, I also think that a lot of people have a really hard time figuring out how to market themselves when they don’t have a lot of career experience. Though plenty of students work, a lot of times they may only have part-time retail gigs and things like that, and while plenty of employers like seeing that sort of experience, it can be hard to tell if it’s enough. School is often the primary means for young people to demonstrate their skills and drive, but it can be hard to figure out how to translate some of that to resume-appropriate bullet points.

      4. CheeryO*

        Maybe it’s regional? Our giant local state school definitely tells engineering grads to list their GPA if it’s over 3.0, and a lot of companies around here won’t interview someone with a GPA below 3.3 or 3.5. I don’t hire, but I help with career outreach for my agency and have seen a ton of resumes from recent grads, and almost all of them list their GPA. We tend to assume that it isn’t good if it’s not listed… it isn’t the most important factor for us, but it’s definitely a consideration.

    5. fposte*

      I’d like to hear somebody from the UK chime in here, because I do hear more about what degree you graduated with in the UK.

      2. caledonia*

        It varies even within the UK as Scotland do a 4 year undergrad degree but RUK (rest of UK) tend to offer 3 year ones. The reason is, I think, one of flexibility and that the Scottish education system is different to RUK, our students go to uni for 17+.

        Anyway, in Scotland you can graduate with an Ordinary/pass (3 year degree), a 3rd, a 2:2 (aka a “Desmond” – Desmond Tutu) 2:1 or a 1st. A good honours degree is classed as a 2:1 or a 1st.

      3. TeaLady*

        In the coded language of recruitment ads, employers who ask for a “good” honours degree are expecting a First or a 2:1 so in those cases I would definitely put the classification down on my CV. Oh, and they are probably wanting someone from a Russell Group university and a “traditional” subject.

        For further study ( eg MA or PhD) you are unlikely to be accepted with a degree lower than a good 2.1

      4. Goreygal*

        It’s common in my industry to list your degree in your signature as it identifies that you have a very specific industry qualification (this is a secondary degree BTW; you have to have a primary degree as an entry level requirement for the second degree). You would qualify in the signature if you had an “honors” degree but not the number ..so one person might sign “BSc. (Hons) Teapot Making” and another “BSc. Teapot Making”. From what I understand this is industry specific though

    6. Parenthetically*

      Nah, there’s no point in mentioning it. In the ~15 years since I graduated from uni, no one’s ever looked at or asked about my grades. I made it, I got my degree, it wasn’t any great shakes but I did fine. I’d never put my grade point average on a resume.

      I’m a teacher, and I tell my students all the time that they need to learn to prioritize and make their own choices, and then be content with the outcomes. I want them to work hard, but if they’re happy to get middling grades so they can get more sleep or time with their friends or opportunities to work on their hobbies, who am I to tell them to stay up later or become a hermit or give up all their side activities just to reach a particular number? We can talk about the benefits of pushing a little harder in high school for the sake of getting into better universities, or to get some academic scholarships, but once someone’s at uni and is legally an adult, I think it’s just as important to learn to decide which classes actually merit putting extra effort into and which don’t.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        I got an okay but not great GPA. I also had a resume full of field and lab work, three minors, membership in a few service organizations, and spent much of my free time climbing, working search and rescue, and cooking. I think it helped more than eking out that extra 0.3%.

        1. TL -*

          You had a 3.8 from above, right?

          In my school’s biology department (and the chemistry, I think), that’s an *excellent* GPA. The highest I ever heard of was a 3.875 and that was only the one person. Nobody got a 4.0 (it wasn’t really possible with our setup.) A 3.5 was good, a 3.0 was okay, nothing special. On the other hand, some really highly ranked schools grade inflate, so graduating with a low GPA reflects quite badly upon you, but a high GPA is nothing special.

          Without knowing the school’s grading style, the GPA is, at best, a rough metric of how well a student tests.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            It was a biology department, from a school not known for it but with a decent program. It was quite possible to get a 4.0, but it seemed like the delta between how hard I worked and how hard they worked was enormous.

            But my secret weapon is that I’m a great test taker.

    7. Becks*

      Longtime lurker, first time commenting! I’m an American who moved to the UK a few years ago and can confirm that it is quite different from the US. Degree classifications do matter quite a bit here — there are plenty of graduate level jobs which specify that only graduates from Russell Group universities with a 2:1 or above will be considered. Most job applications will ask you for your degree classification, and often certificates to prove it (even well into your career). So while it might be possible to leave it off your CV, they’ll find out either way. It is true that anything lower than a 2:1 isn’t really considered anything to be proud of.

      I completely sympathise with wanting to spend more time on leisure activities and less on studying, and I think it is likely to lead to a more fun university experience overall, but there are a couple things to keep in mind:

      1. If you’re going to be applying for competitive graduate schemes (or pretty much any graduate scheme in the current market), you will be up against candidates who received firsts, participated in lots of societies and did internships. If your goal is to get into one of these, you will have to ensure that you have similar experiences. This doesn’t mean that you can’t get hired with a 2:1 — particularly if you’re at a really prestigious university — but it does mean that you’re going to be filling in more applications and experiencing more disappointments.

      2. Leisure activities can count for a lot, depending on what they are! If you join a society in your first year and work your way into a leadership role, with some specific accomplishments that you can describe in job applications, that can look fantastic when you apply to jobs. To be really competitive, though, you’d still want to build in some work experience.

      3. If you’re considering postgraduate study, top universities increasingly require a 2:1. If you have a first, increasingly you’ll be automatically accepted, whereas with a 2:1 you start competing against other applicants (this varies widely by programme and university though. There are plenty of courses that are desperate for applicants and are willing to bend their rules).

      4. Your lecturers, who will be writing many of your first references, LOVE students who take their studies seriously (often regardless of your overall marks). We will remember you and be able to write you something awesome when the time comes, as opposed to something positive but generic.

      Obviously this is my own experience and my own impressions, so I’d be curious to know if other UK-based types have found the same thing.

      TL;DR No, a 2:1 isn’t the end of the world. But a first class degree will open more doors.

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        I also get the impression that a 2:1 from anything non Russell Group isn’t exactly setting the world on fire, but can depend on the employer and is usually the base minimum for anything.

        I was involved in the hiring aspect for our grad scheme last summer and you could tell a marked difference between the RG candidates’ capabilities/polish and those from former polys/new unis, even if they had a similar course and grade. We didn’t have specification for Oxbridge grads and were open to anyone with the minimum qualifications (2:1) , but as a non-Brit with no major preconceptions about uni quality, it really was interesting to see first hand.

        Finally, one of the candidates we hired stood out because she could relate experiences gained in her gap year and societies stuff to questions we asked about leadership and working with difficult people. Get those extracurriculars – she was already impressive with her sample work but being able to bridge the gap between uni and work world with that experience really pushed her over the top. I think in the UK where it doesn’t seem as though there is as much focus on working during school as in the US this is even more important.

        1. Lord of the Ringbinders*

          My almer mater is a member of the Russell Group now but wasn’t when I went there. However, I’ve never worked in a field where anyone would care. I do think some of the ex-poly institutions aren’t great (and I say this having been a visiting lecturer at a few in a previous career) but I also worked part-time for one that was utterly terrific. We even had a student transfer from Oxford as we had a better expert in their subject.

          1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

            Yeah, I work with a lot of international folks who think Oxbridge is the only thing that matters. Its really naive, like insisting on Harvard for no good reason. But… its definitely Old Boy’s network in my line of work (strategy consulting) and everyone wears cufflinks with their college crest on it. Actually rather nauseating if you think of it – some 4o year old man associating with where he went to school at 16. I would almost say that has even more pull than uni if you did Winchester/Harrow/Eton etc. level because OBVIOUSLY you went to Oxbridge. *eye roll*

            I’ve made a move to something parallel to what I was doing so now I am out of the direct line of fire of these types and into an area where folks are a bit more relaxed about what school you went to and its all a bit more democratic. A bit.

      2. TheReluctantOtter*

        This is excellent advice!

        Re point 3 – you can get into postgraduate (masters) with a 2:2 and IF you graduate the MSc. with distinction you will then be eligible for a funded PhD. Although it’s possible this is field specific.

        The UK does seem to be different from the US regarding graduating grade. I was asked for my BSc. grade (2:1) on a recent lab application and I graduated in 2004.

    8. Newby*

      I think it depends on what else you have done. If you never had a job, then it might make a difference. Once you get that first job, I don’t think anyone cares (unless they ask). “Leisure activities” probably don’t matter, but if you are using the time productively (like an internship or other relevant work experience) it can matter more than your GPA. If you are applying for graduate or professional school, then obviously it is different.

    9. TheLazyB*

      Dunno if it’s still true, but when I was at uni in the 90s a 2:1 was basically what to aim for, unless you wanted an academic career, because with a first most jobs would assume you’d go into academia soon.

      Saw a job recently that required 2:2 or above so it’s basically just a 3rd that’s not really worth bothering putting on your application.

      1. caledonia*

        Well you have people with degrees who pre-date honours for one thing or people like me who have studied part time. I am going to end up with a 2:2 or lower but eff that noise, I have done it whilst working for the last 7 years. Anyone who says that isn’t worth anything doesn’t deserve me as an employee.

      2. JaneB*

        ir depends on your age too. These days 70-85% of students get s 2:1 or 1 at most unis in the UK, and there are many more graduates than there were even 20 years ago, so a 2:2 or 3rd is increasingly a problem outside of the “name brand elite” and even then it depends on the employer. Given the fees etc I think not doing as well as you can is really stupid and a waste of everyone’s time and energy, but I wouldn’t say that to a student – they are adults who get to make choices that look stupid to me.

    10. Iris Carpenter*

      I know that the UK company I work for does not recruit if the degree grade is 2:ii or below. Other UK places step up your starting salary according to the degree grade.

      Unfairly, many people look at the grade, and put you in a box accordingly:
      1st – Achiever,
      2:i – Competent,
      2:ii – Just about good enough,
      3rd – Below par.
      I emphasize this is unfair, but which box do you want to be in?

      This touches on “Why are you doing the degree in the first place?”. If it is strongly related to your desired career, why do you not want do do as well as possible? Especially given the costs.

      1. caledonia*

        I’ve been an admin for 5 years and my degree will be Humanities. For me, those two things aren’t related and my degree has no bearing on how well I can do my job. If I get a 3rd but am a great admin, that suddenly means “I’m below par”? As with everything, some common sense should be applied.

        1. JaneB*

          Yes, but much of the discussion is about that first few years before people have a solid track record of performance in any professional sphere other than as a student – it’s not fair in all cases, but faced with a lot of applicants, it’s an easy and “safe” way to start making decisions, especially at lower levels where applicant numbers can be huge (also in my experience, considering full time students not part time matures, the vast majority of 2:2 and 3 students are either very poor at following instructions and turning up to class so do badly that way, or have well below average communication skills and aren’t taking advantage of all the help there is to address that – so they may be smart underneath that, but they aren’t terribly employable from the evidence the university can see. Now some will happily say uni is low on their priority list… but if that’s true why are they taking out substantial loans etc? Not logical.. go part time, take a break, do the things you do care about… life is too short to waste like that!

          1. Lord of the Ringbinders*

            …or have struggled in some other way and haven’t realised there is help there. I completely understand that has been your experience but it’s important to remember there’s sometimes more of a story behind it.

            I almost, almost got a 2:2. I had an undiagnosed chronic illness, undiagnosed mental health problems largely caused by childhood abuse – and an abusive boyfriend. I was on the borderline and was very lucky that they decided to give me a 2:1. I went on to do a postgrad and only narrowly missed a distinction. When I went back years later to retrain I got the highest 1st in my year.

            Whereas my husband got a 2:2 because he blew off one of his exams!

  18. Anon for once*

    I do marketing for a software company. Part of my job includes release information for new versions of the software. I’m not a developer, so I get my info from an SME (they give me ticket numbers and I look up/read the tickets), and then I have the development team’s tech writer review my notes on focus points. Then I create materials for Boss and Grandboss to review.

    This time around, tech writer was too busy to review before my deadline, so I had also SME check over my notes. All good, making materials. Then boss was too busy to review the materials and told me just to send to Grandboss. Okay, fine…

    Well, some info was wrong. I had a couple items that are no longer part of this release, AND something that was old (a small item from a release prior to my start, I didn’t know this feature existed). I don’t know what happened with the first items, but for the old one, it looks like I got the wrong ticket number.

    Now I have to meet with Grandboss in an hour to go over my release-prep process (and go over this release).

    1. Anon for once*

      I know there were a lot of factors here, but it is MY job to make sure this stuff is accurate, and I don’t want to be making excuses. Am I overreacting to be super nervous? I don’t really know what to say about why it was wrong. And I feel whiny/blamey to say “well, SME gave it to me, and I didn’t question their numbers. Then I made my notes and Writer and Boss were too busy to review. So I asked SME again and they said they were fine.”

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        So it sounds like you have a process that works well, but this particular release didn’t stick to the process due to other people’s availability. So focus on, what could/can you do differently if this scenario happens again?

      2. ten-four*

        Blergh, what a pain! You can follow the lead of the person calling the meeting, and I think if you present it as: this is the flow of what happened; how would you like me to handle it next time so that I catch issues sooner? That’s not whiny, it’s practical. You can also go in with your own ideas about how to manage it too. For example: is it possible for you to check the product road map for features in a release? Can the product owner be a backstop SME? Stuff like that.

        Assuming this isn’t part of a larger pattern I wouldn’t be SUPER nervous; just plan on using the time to get valuable feedback about how to do your job better. Good luck!

        1. Anon for once*

          Thanks Persephone and ten-four!

          That’s true, I haven’t run into this situation before, and it probably IS good to have a plan for when everyone is on deadline (and not available to help me meet my deadlines).

          Depending on how the conversation goes, I plan to work with Grandboss to create a plan for first/second tier reviewers if Writer and Boss can’t…

          We’ll see. I’ll report back after.

    2. Stellaaaaa*

      Tell him that you had your part of the project done by the deadline, X date but that the tech writer STILL has not gotten back to you with the necessary edits so you decided to just submit what you had.

      1. Anon for once*

        Writer told me right away they didn’t have time to review this week; so I asked SME and then told Writer “no worries, I have a sub reviewer.”

        So this is true, but also not… like my process was thrown, but I thought I covered OK.

        I’m planning on focusing on what my backup plan for review should be if that happens again (this was the first time in a couple years we had this happen!).

        1. turquoisecow*

          Yeah, it sounds like you need multiple reviewers.

          In the jobs that I’ve had, where something needed to be reviewed before being released to the public or an audience, at least two, if not three people reviewed it – and reviewed it carefully, rather than simply glancing at it and initialing. If those people were not able to review it, it didn’t go out, or some other person reviewed it. In your case, if the tech writer is not able to review it, it sounds like someone else needs to look at it, and someone who has the knowledge required.

          Not saying there’s anything you personally could have done differently here, but your company process needs some work.

    3. Someone*

      It sounds like the tech writer is in the role of tracking what really went in the release and what didn’t while the SME is not as aware of that. That’s standard based on their roles. You need a backup reviewer for overall features if the writer is busy or your bosses need to hash out what the writer’s priorities are. Product management would also be a potential reviewer for final feature set.

    4. Anon for once*

      The meeting went really well!

      Grandboss (who is the PO) was concerned because we haven’t had any issues before, and really they just wanted to know what happened.

      Apparently, the person before me used to meet with the product team meet for a couple hours every month to go over features, and Grandboss is really appreciative that I’ve learned to follow the development team’s sprints and get the info myself.

      So the solution is: I get my own flag for Dev tickets (basically a “include in Comm” flag for me to filter by), so I won’t need to skim/guess myself or have the SME do it – Grandboss will flag the tickets as they hit their queue.

      1. Ama*

        That is excellent! You have a good Grandboss, sounds like. I’m always appreciative when higher-ups recognize the need to give employees the ability to get around process bottlenecks.

        1. Anon for once*

          I do! I didn’t even make a big deal of the bottleneck (even though it’s been a huge pain point for me since I started), and they picked up on it. Excellent!

  19. SaviourSelf*

    I am looking to move on from my current position but would really like to move to the Denver, CO area. I currently live on the East Coast. Job searching cross-country SUCKS!

    Any suggestions for how to make it better?

    I would rather not move before finding a job as I currently have a decent-paying job and it is tolerable.

    1. RavensandOwls*

      I’m in the boat of my spouse getting a job out of state and my having to find a position as soon as possible to moving. It’s not fun. What seems to have helped a little bit over the last time I did it is explicitly stating when I will be in the area (i.e., “Moving to X, starting Y”) and making it clear that I don’t need relocation assistance. Not sure how it would be going otherwise, however.

      1. checkin in*

        I am in the same boat as you and I tried that but the problem is 99% on online job applications want you to fill in your address. I was putting that same info in my cover letter and on my resume but because I still had to put my current address in the application so they never bothered to even look!!! I didn’t get a single call for an interview until we had our address set and I was able to put that on my forms. Then all of a sudden I got about 6 phone interviews in two weeks. Just another reason why I hate the online application process so damn much.

        1. RavensandOwls*

          Yeah… we’re going to CA next week to nail down where we’re living and I’m thinking that will help a great deal. I also have been using the line 2 section to say, “Moving to X at the end of March!” and made that clear on my linkedin and website, too.

          This gives me hope, however, that as soon as we have a local address, I can get a few more calls.

        2. turquoisecow*

          i hate those forms. They take so long to fill out, basically include everything that’s in your resume, and don’t give you any room for explanation.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Criminy, you and the entire rest of the country, it seems like. No personal offense to you, but I do wish people would find some other cool places to move while we maybe widen a few interstates and figure out where we’re going to store all of you.

      Anyway. What’s your industry? Is it something you could telecommute with?

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        LOL. I live in Denver too. It’s all a matter of perception, though. When I got married, my best friend from high school was my maid of honor. She still lives in southern CA, which is where we went to school. She and her husband came out here for the wedding and commented on all the “wide open space” we have.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Yeah, it’s nuts. I’ve owned a home for 5 years (and thank heavens I bought then) and a rental property that I have on AirBnB, and the latter literally pays for the former.

          1. Ann Furthermore*

            We bought our house 5 years ago too, and I’m so relieved we decided to move to another area of town. We love our house, the area, and our neighbors. There is no way we could afford it in today’s market though.

            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              Whereabouts do you live, generally? We’re near the Berkeley Park area and love it.

              1. Ann Furthermore*

                Highlands Ranch. For years I looked down my nose at it as being full of vanilla, white-bread, cookie-cutter yuppies. But I love it here, which must mean that I myself and a vanilla, white-bread, cookie-cutter yuppie. LOL. It’s a great place for kids — if we didn’t have children, I’m sure we would have ended up somewhere else.

      3. NaoNao*

        I’m in Denver too! *waves across vast oceans of people*. I also wish people would check out California or something rather than moving here and:
        creating more traffic
        driving rent costs up and up and up and up
        changing the culture and vibe of the city/suburbs

        But you, poster, you personally are okay :)

        But the silver lining is that with more new people, maybe one or two of them won’t be the “outdoorsy” type and more of “my” people will be here? Hoping!

        1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

          California – ALL parts – are so dang expensive. And it is the expenses you don’t know about that get you. There are parts of the state that are really reasonable as far as housing, but the job market isn’t very strong there, gas is wayyy up, and, seriously, state taxes SUCK. Property tax surprises, water bill surprises, etc.

    3. Anon4Now*

      This is what worked for us. Five years ago, my spouse and I moved to Denver, CO. My spouse put an add on craigslist (among other things) for a job and he was contacted by 3 recruiters. 1 worked out and he got a job offer. We had 4 weeks to move to Denver. We stayed in a extended stay hotel for about 3 weeks and then moved to a rental/condo.
      So I recommend a recruiter.

    4. Zombeyonce*

      Is your job one that is able to be done remotely? If you’ve proven yourself there, you might be able to convince them to let you become a remote worker. I managed to do this years ago with a company I had been with for 2 years. They liked me and wanted me to stay, but I hated the area and just couldn’t live there anymore. I decided that, come hell or water, I was going to move. But I still needed a job and as you said, long-distance job searching is difficult.

      I put together a presentation with plenty of data on why I could be even more productive as a remote employee (no distractions equals more productivity) plus they’d save money on office space (which was in high demand at that time). It took me 2 months to convince the various levels of management, but they finally approved it and I got to move and keep my job at the same time.

    5. Sally*

      Unsolicited advice, but be sure, if you get a job in Denver, that it will pay for the ever-rising cost of living here. Salaries don’t go as far as you might think, not just in Denver but all along the Front Range. Housing for renters and buyers is limited and quite pricey (and developments tend to aim for the top of the range), so be sure to factor that in if you get any offers when negotiating salary.

    6. rubyrose*

      Highlands Ranch CO here. Hi fellow residents!

      I believe there is more discrimination against out-of-staters. Because it is a cool area employers can be more picky. Jobs that in other places would only require a B.S require a masters, just because they can. There is a “get yourself here first and then we will consider you” attitude.

      I was here for 10 years, left, and wanted to come back. I got zero response to my applications showing my address as either Arkansas or Mississippi, even though my degree was from a local university, my resume showed Colorado jobs, and I gave Colorado references. I was even able to come back for 4 months and live with a friend, so I had a local address and was readily available for interviews! No takers.

      What worked for me was taking a remote job that had no Colorado connections. It was when the recruiter said I could live anywhere, as long as it was close to an airport, that I saw that I had been given the golden ticket to move back. Once I was settled in that position I moved myself.

      It is tough. In your shoes I would get a phone with either a 303 or 720 area, so there is an attempt to look local. But that obviously will not help you with the actual address.

  20. Anon Prospect Researcher*

    I’m hoping to get an AAM reader reality check. Whether my expectations are in check or if I am way off base. I started at a mid-size nonprofit in September 2015 as their first prospect researcher in a mid-level position. Within the past two months the fundraising staff has grown and I went from supporting three people to six. This is in addition to setting up procedures and a lot of organizing the way we do things. No mention of expansion was brought up until I was three months into the job and it was a dream more than a reality at that point (although I did anticipate a little additional staffing when interviewing).

    At the beginning of the year they announced raises and promotions and I received neither. There had been some loose talk in early fall from my manager that he was trying to push for for me to get promoted (along with that of two colleagues) but he made clear that it was uncertain whether this would happen. Recently my department head (boss’ boss) said to me that with performance reviews coming up, we should discuss how I will advance in the organization. I also recently learned that our performance reviews apply to next year in regards to raises and promotion (a good 9 months out).

    So I’m a pit peeved at the moment because I have been doing an amazing job and my role expanded substantially. I am planning on asking for a raise at my upcoming review showcasing everything I have accomplished and including how much my workload expanded. Thinking about it further I did get a little hesitant because I have only been here a little over a year (the colleague who got promoted to a gift officer position though has only been here three months longer) and I am starting to question if the increase in workload is a big enough change or if it is within the normal realm of what I should be doing? What are your thoughts?

    I also anticipate that while my manager will want to give me a raise, it will not be able to get approved. My alternative is to ask to work from home more often which I am not sure my employer will grant. I know the usual response is to ask what needs to happen in order to get a raise and I will do that but I think this is a little different in that I have earned it in the eyes of my manager and our department head sees me getting there next year doing the same thing I have already been doing. Should I add anything else to my response? A professional way of saying I am disappointed that my contributions won’t be recognized for another year. Related to that, my manager is unhappy as well and I can see the conversation going to “none of us are being recognized for what we do (even though he’s not that great at his job)” so what would be a way to keep the conversation focused on my situation.

    Thank you all for your help and my apologizes for the super-long post.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I don’t think you really have a way forward, except to find another job or wait.

    2. Former Prospect Researcher*

      Former prospect researcher here.

      I think what you want to include in the review is spot on, but in my experience, the glory in most non-profits (and raises and perks) do tend to go to those who do the frontline fundraising. Never mind that they wouldn’t have asked Prospect X for a gazillion if you hadn’t been the one to identify her, research her assets and interests, and present her as a prospect to them.

      I wound up dealing with it by leaving development entirely, and make about 30% more now to boot.

      1. HYDR*

        As someone who works with Prospect Researches, you truly are the unsung heroes at any organization. I would show your numbers (completed X profiles, set X procedures, or completed X% more profiles, etc.) and if you can track resulting gifts, that is even better.

        Good luck!

        2. Former Prospect Researcher*

          I’m in strategic planning and data analysis. I had good stats skills going in to my prospect research role and leveraged them into development analytics and modeling(while also wearing the prospect research hat). APRA has come a very long way in offering sessions and tracks on analytics in recent years and I was able to participate in those to build my skill sets.

  21. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Does anyone work a compressed workweek? While working on some projects, I can work 4 10 hour days, 7-5 or 8-6. But, with commuting by public transit and driving, and working out most days, I am already gone 11 hours a day. I don’t know if I can do it, but I would love to have one more day free.

    1. animaniactoo*

      I’ve worked that schedule for 6 days a week, and it worked relatively well because I was young and had a lot more energy. I would willingly, easily work it now if it meant I could have a 3rd non-work day.

      (And hi, I hadn’t seen you around since the other day and was concerned – I really hope that I didn’t offend you and I hope you’re doing okay.)

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        No, I’m not offended, don’t worry. My wife and I talked about how to save more money again and budget. I don’t understand math very well but it’s great to have the same goals and be looped in. And my wife’s new treatment seems to be starting to work.

    2. katamia*

      I’m a contractor who works from home (read: tons of schedule flexibility, probably more than most AAMers), but I usually try to work 4 days per week rather than spreading it out over 5. I really love having that extra day to be able to decompress, run errands, etc. If your employer will go for it, maybe you could suggest it on a trial basis and reevaluate in 3-6 months, although even if you like it that might also give them a chance to say no if it’s not working on their end.

    3. MoinMoin*

      I’ve worked 4x10s and generally liked it, though there was definitely a feeling of “today is a workday and therefore that’s all I’ll end up having time for.” In my case, the extended hours meant that I was out of the key rush hour times, so my workday was 2 hours longer but my commute was an hour shorter. I also shuffled my workout schedule so more rest days were on workdays, which made it a bit easier.
      Actually, my favorite schedule was when I did 4x10s but worked M-Tu, Th-F, with W, Sa, Su off. It was amazing having that mid week breather and weeks go by much faster when every other day is a “Friday.” It also gave me time to do appointments or meal prep for the next two days or whatever. If I ever wanted a long weekend I changed my extra day off, but most weeks it worked well.

    4. Grits McGee*

      When I was younger, I worked a 4-10 schedule, but had a 1hr+ commute on each end of the day. I ended up just spending my extra day off sleeping.

    6. SL #2*

      I work a pretty typical “9/80” schedule: 9-hour workdays, but with alternating Fridays off. Basically, 80 hours (2 weeks) spread out over 9 days instead of the typical 10. I like it a lot, but I also live pretty close to work (45 mins in the morning) and I spend my day off sleeping a little more… I just schedule appointments and whatnot in the afternoons.

    7. Whats In A Name*

      I had the opportunity to work 4×10 with different projects, twice with Monday’s off and once with Friday’s off. Monday’s off, IMO, was the best because I got to clean up after the weekend, get errands done while others were working and it really set a good tone for my week. When I had Friday’s off I went into weekend mode (granted, I did live at the beach at that time and it was summer).

      Another bonus was commute time, which was shortened because I was off-rush hour. I workout 5-6 days per week, too. I changed to early morning workouts on the way to work and normally ate something easy to make or leftovers for dinner so I wasn’t eating then crawling right into bed. If I could do it logistically now I would in a second.

      If you can do a trial run that would be a good way to see how you like it.

    8. Tris Prior*

      I did a 4×10 schedule for a while. At first I liked it but over time found it really exhausting – I discovered I don’t have 10 hours of productivity in me, and found myself making more errors. Plus, I ended up using my day off just to get all the chores and errands done that I couldn’t do during the week due to the long days – by Friday (my day off) the house was a wreck, there was nothing to eat, etc. because I wasn’t dealing with all that during the week due to exhaustion).

    9. Raia*

      Sometimes I wish I could work 3x12s like the nurses I work with, 4 days off a week would be a DREAM. I’m currently 5x8s but even 4x10s would be better, at least you have one day where you can definitely schedule doctor/other appts, go on a walk, do a project on your house, etc.

    10. Anono-me*

      I currently work 4-10s and love it.

      There are some cons. The transition from 5-8s can be hard. You have less time and energy each day to do other things. This will impact your social life. If you have to miss a full day and are hourly it is more painful. If you use mass transit, you are more likely to be traveling during off peak times and have fewer options.

      There are a lot of pluses. You have more time total each week. Not only do you save one day’s worth of travel time. You save what ever time difference there is between getting ready for a professional environment vs a casual one. You also save time and stress on many other tasks. Grocery shopping is so much quicker and easier on a weekday. Appointments are easier. My stylist offers a discount for weekday daytime appointments. The gym equipment is available right away. With a Monday or Friday off weekend trips are easier. Wednesday off is great for keeping your energy up.

      I also personally feel more productive on 4-10s. And am able to work with customers on both coasts more easily.

      A couple of suggestions based on my experiences and that of coworkers: Please ask how work weeks with holidays will be handled. Please also ask what the third day off will be for you. Please also talk to your family about this. It will impact everyone in the household. (Someone else will probably need do more daily tasks like supper or dishes.)

      I hope that my thoughts on this are useful.

    5. strawberries and raspberries*

      Plus, suspending someone for being bulimic (or supposedly being bulimic)? That’s a lawsuit waiting to happen.

  23. Tempest*

    I’ve posted a few times about my unhappy job situation. I’m doing my best to get out of here but due to the point I’m at in my career, I can’t just take any job, and jobs that make sense for my next step are few and far between.
    I had an interview last Friday which was a bit of a waste of both our time. Interviewer didn’t really want to ask me anything but if I wanted a proper interview. I asked the him a few questions which had me interested enough to say yes to a proper interview, he advised he’d have the recruiter call me to set something up this week, but on Wednesday he let me know that they classed me as overqualified for the role, which made him think I wouldn’t stay very long as it would be too big a step down for me. I can kind of see where he was coming from in terms of title but in terms of pay and responsibilities it would have been a step up but hey ho. I wasn’t sure about the commute or the change in style of company so likely for the best all around.

    So now, that means I’m stuck here for an indeterminate period of time trying to cope. Issues are mainly I have a very slack co-worker who basically disappears for 1.5-3 hours a day unaccounted for. We’re top level customer facing customer service agents so that does directly impact me. He also doesn’t call people back in a timely fashion, deal with their issues in a timely fashion or in the fashion he tells them he will. Then because he’s never there, I get stuck dealing with these upset people because it’s front line and the phone just rings, whoever is around has to answer it. There are other staff who depend on him doing his job and he doesn’t do that part of it either. That’s the job. Essentially because I actually care about the standard of my work and ultimately my customers (who are for the most part a lovely bunch) I get stuck picking up the slack because someone has to. This isn’t the type of role or place where mediocre is really good enough. It is a role with a significant amount of downtime so it’s not like we’re overworked in the main either.

    I’ve brought all this to my manager’s attention during my review. She’s so controlling that there is no question of giving this colleague the impression he needs to look to me for guidance/what to do in order to have things get done more smoothly. I have several years’ seniority but that’s just not going to happen. She is incredibly conflict avoidant. He was supposed to have a yearly review three weeks ago but she ‘ran out of time’ before she went on a two week vacation and now she’s too busy getting caught up to do it. I had mine weeks ago and was rated excellent (highest rating) across the board and given a raise. She will be avoiding his because in case these issues weren’t obvious (for reasons they ARE obvious, she couldn’t have not known) now I have detailed them clearly and she can’t pretend they aren’t issues. She told me she would address them on this review to save the world but she’ll put off doing his review now because it will involve a hard conversation. She put it to me as your review was a discussion about where you need to go from here as you’ve grown this role as far as you can, his will be a discussion about what he needs to do to be adequate in the role today. He’s also one of those people who thinks everything wasn’t his fault. I didn’t do that task as it wasn’t important. That guy complained because he’s an ahole, ect. My boss is also well liked up the chain so going over her isn’t going to work and would in effect be career suicide.

    I’ve read the advice not to focus on it because it doesn’t affect you but in this case it does. If we had independent work loads and it didn’t matter, I genuinely wouldn’t care. But we don’t, so the fact he’s getting an extra 2 hours of break a day he gets paid for but shouldn’t be having and I don’t as I’m not that kind of person both affects me and grates on my nerves a great deal. When he is at his desk he’s glued to his phone the remainder of the time to the point customers have commented n it to me, which is embarrassing but there’s nothing I can say. I’d be pretty sure he’s talking about me to people on his phone, which I don’t really care about as he’s not the kind of person I’d ever want to socialize with outside work anyway, but it still goes to unprofessionalism when the company policy is actually that it should be turned off in your drawer, bag or coat.

    So I’m either on the edge of tears or quietly seething with rage every minute of a very long day six days a week. My question is how do people cope in this type of situation where the light at the end of the tunnel could be five miles of rough track away and there’s nothing you can do about it as the world insists you pay your mortgage and car payment so you can’t just say screw it and walk out? I honestly feel like I’m on the edge of getting signed off with stress but then if I get an internal transfer instead of a new job I’ll have to know that my new manager knows I had to miss work for stress. That could cost me my next job and then I’d be stuck here even longer! I have something else possibly in the pipeline but that depends on someone else at newjob getting managed out, so that will take as long as it takes and then I’ll still have to interview and obtain the job like anyone else. How do people keep their sanity? Or am I at the point where all you can do is cry in the toilets until you can get another job? Maybe mostly I just wanted to rant with people who get work sucks sometimes . I feel so helpless with it all. I also don’t want to compromise my integrity or standards to lower to his level. Boss’s advice was basically stop doing the stuff he should have done and let him fall on his face. But that takes a customer down with him at the end of the day. I think it’s just as hard to realize I’ve lost respect for her as a result as it is to put up with the overall situation.

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I think you need to follow your manager’s advice and let him fall on his face. It’s hard when you are a conscientious employee who does an excellent job, but it sounds like no one is going to blame you for not picking up his slack. It’s possible that your manager actually needs you to not take on his workload so that she can document what he’s not doing and the consequences. Your manager is giving you an opportunity not to care/stress about the situation; take it.

      1. Tempest*

        I am, in the regard that I can stop that level of stress. However, knowing my manager he will give excuses, that guy was an ahole, I was too busy (we’re so quiet it’s dire at the minute which also doesn’t help as everyone has too much time on their hands and ends up cranky!) she will accept them and that will be that. He’s had several complaints which should have resulted in formal warnings but has gotten away with it all. He’s one of those people who have managed create a situation where people praise him highly the one time he does bother to do his job rather than manage him on the times he doesn’t. She knows how much time he spends unaccounted for but won’t do anything about it. I know, I’m just whining but I don’t know what else to do. Boys get treated differently than girls around here. I know if I did the things he does I’d be getting regular talkings to but there feels like this attitude of well he’s a boy in his twenties, what are you going to do? Um, hold him to the same standards we would anyone else as we hired him to do the same job?! Disfunctional is not the word and I know from past experience that she ‘just wants everyone to get along’ and won’t do anything which will have her having a hard conversation with anyone. The bar is set so low around here it actually makes me sad.

      2. LCL*

        Yes! Follow this advice, DiH is totally right. Boss is telling you to stop covering for him, so stop covering for him.

        1. Tempest*

          Wow, it’s hard! Just had a customer saying he should have had a call back with some info on Friday which he never got. Advised I’d have to leave a message for colleague to ring as promised on monday. He pushed so I sent the bare minimum of info and advised colleague would call on Monday to follow up as agreed. Goes against everything in my nature but if manager needs me to stop dealing with the stuff he should have but didn’t than I guess I need to stop dealing with it. But customer’s little disapointed voice… Man. Goes against my nature, literally. I think I also know the next thing coming is attitude why I didn’t just deal with it and I can’t really say manager told me to leave you to fall on your face, so I need to come up with excuses like I wasn’t sure where you were at with it and didn’t want to step on your toes etc. It feels so passive agressive to leave notes on his desk but if I don’t, he’ll just say he forgot I asked him to call etc.

          1. Wanna-Alp*

            Yeah, it sucks, but you have to remain professional yourself, otherwise you give him ammunition. Try phrases like: “I had my own work to get done.”

    2. kbeers0su*

      I would find a way to make it even harder for this to be ignored. For instance:
      – Angry customer calls because coworker didn’t do what he said he would do.
      – Apologize, but explain that only coworker can do that for the customer.
      – Email coworker with the complaint and tell coworker that he needs to call customer back to address the issue.
      – Repeat each time you get such a call.
      Eventually this kind of thing is going to damage the reputation of your department/org. Your boss may not realize how frequently these issues come up, or how frequently you’re solving them. Using this tactic may help her get a better sense of the scope/make the situation more urgent.

        1. Tempest*

          I’d love to but she doesn’t speak to customers if she can at all help it and when she does, it often makes the issue worse. She is an administrator, not a people manager or a complaint manager! If there was any way at all, she’d just refuse the call.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      “Boss, I am on the verge of tears most days. I am starting to experience health issues because I am watching a company slowly disintegrate. I need help now. What I am proposing is that when I get a complaint, I will give the customer your phone number/extension.”

      OR

      “Boss, I have been trying to follow your advice. But I am having no luck. My biggest problem is that this guy will sink our company. We will lose enough customers that we will go out of business and no longer have paychecks. This means all of us.”

      A softer version of this would be to ask the boss what she wants you to do with the angry people that call and his uncompleted work that needs to get finished. Keep going back to her with questions. Ever have a sliver in your hand? It’s annoying until you finally get tweezers and do something, right? Be that sliver. Keep going back to the boss, “I have X going on, how do you want me to handle it?” Later on, “I have Y going on, how do you want me to handle it?”

      If you are honest with yourself you will know that you alone cannot save a company from crashing. It takes the effort of numerous people to keep a company out of the dumpster. One of the things you could tell yourself is that you will keep enough business going so that you know you will be paid until you find something else.

      Another thing I have told myself is to let people like boss and coworker sharpen me. Work smarter in different ways. Be willing to let go of things that are less important. Be willing to hold people accountable for their choices. See, your boss and coworker are variations of the same problem. Neither one of them is being accountable for their work/position.

      If you have PTO start using it. This seems counter-intuitive. The point is that if you do not start taking care of you, you will see problems worsen. It’s time to start taking care of you.

      1. Tempest*

        I have paid time off but I do use it every year. I’m in Europe so I get four and a bit weeks of it a year. I have up to 13 weeks of paid sick time but to use more than seven calendar days I have to go to the dr and get them to agree with me that I am stressed enough to be signed off work. To be honest I think I would get signed off for at least a few weeks. But then I’d worry about what it would do to my chances of another job in this company if I did that. I know my boss is too scared of ‘hr and the law’ to give any reference other than to confirm dates of employment so outside our company she wouldn’t say anything to anyone anyway. But we do have progression in our company but outside our site and as she is very open to helping me move into any progression option which comes up for me, I don’t want her off my side either. I have a huge vacation booked in the summer, so my paid vacation is pretty much all spoken for even though I have loads of it compared to some people. Argh, I just have to try and keep my sanity while i wait for something else to come along. And not become bitter. And not get dragged down to slacker’s level as a self defense mechanism. I need to keep giving the customers I have in my workload the same service and not let him lower my standards while I let him set his own. It’s a tough one. I really loved this place and for all her faults my manager right up until quite recently but I just can’t respect someone who’s willing to look the other way on such blatant disregard for the job and the work and set the bar so low for some staff, but I promise you if I stopped working at the high level she’s used to, that wouldn’t fly!

        1. Mirilla*

          Your boss sucks. I have a conflict avoidant boss and I’m in a similar situation. Actually it’s the third time my office has had this situation since I started there. The thing is, bosses like this hire people but don’t follow up, so if they hire someone who is prone to slacking off or who displays outrageous behavior, the morale in the department tanks because boss would rather look the other way than actually manage because managing is hard and sometimes uncomfortable. I’m looking to leave for another job but I understand your frustration more than you can imagine. In my case, problem employee is our manager who is paid quite well but we have to manage her most of the time.

          1. Tempest*

            I’m sorry we’re in this together! My first colleague was an older lady who expected to bully me (I’m pretty conflict avoidant myself by default but I push myself to overcome it and tackle issues as they need to be tackled because they tell me it’s part of adulting and adulting is something we all have to do) second guy we replaced him with was lovely but also flaky and going through a lot of personal issues so he stopped showing up and was fired by letter in his abscence when he failed to show up to his disiplinary like he failed to show up to work and then we got this guy, who clearly knew all the right things to say to sound like a rockstar on paper and is the exact oposite. Except in his head, where he clearly thinks he IS a rock star, as he’s informed me that he better get a raise this year because he’s done his time. Um, it’s not just about showing up! Generally you’d be expected to put your cell phone down and deal with a few customers in a timely fashion to deserve a raise. He’s so out of touch. But she won’t kick him into touch so he’s destined to stay that way I’m afraid. She lucked out with me because I get my job satisfaction from doing things well and getting the positive feedback from customers that comes with it, and knowing that I do the best I can. I will never understand why anyone gets up in the morning to come to a job they don’t want to do, just to sit here for 8,9, 10 hours plus a day trying to shaft the customers and company by ‘getting paid to do nothing’ to make it up to themselves they feel hard done by. Get a new job then! Move on to something that makes you a bit happier. Or at least do the job and go home. I’m so miserable and bored without enough to do, I don’t get how people make a full time career out of doing nothing. It’s my idea of hell.

  24. i don't know what to do*

    My company is having another re-org and layoffs this year, which is probably going to hit us next week or the week after. I just found out that I’m not one of the ones being laid off and I’m the only one on my team who is getting a raise this year. Upper management only let the mid-level managers give out one raise per team, and I was the one chosen for my team. The raise isn’t big – only 2% which comes out to about $1200 pre-tax. So it’s not like it’s making a big bump in my paycheck.

    Still, it’s not like I’m going to mention it because it’ll make other coworkers flip out and it’s really none of their business. Some of them already think I’m the “manager’s pet” because my manager really likes me. He likes to say I’m the best on the team and I really wish he would stop because it’s causing people to get bitter.

    I think my manager knows that giving me more money will mean I’m more likely to feel appreciated and more likely to stay. But 2% isn’t enough, though I know I should be grateful since no one else is getting anything. Last year we all got “Meets Expectations” and a 1% COL raise of $500/year.

    I feel super guilty that I’m the only one getting a raise AND that I still want to look for a new job. I know I don’t owe the company anything, but the guilt about being the one singled out and then leaving is eating me away. I don’t hate my job, but I find it fairly boring and I know I could make more money elsewhere. It’s a problem of wondering if the grass really is greener on the other side and whether to stay in an unstable industry with mediocre pay and lax rules (flex time, WFH, come and go as I want) for potentially more money and stricter rules elsewhere. I know my manager would be devastated if I leave and might use the “you were the stronghold of our team/the only one who got a raise” if I give my notice once I find a new job.

    1. Ann O'Nemity*

      Being the only person on your team who got a (small) raise does not mean you owe your company anything. There’s a lot of people who’d start looking if they went through multiple years of 1-2% raises, repeated reorgs, and layoffs.

      1. i don't know what to do*

        To be fair, I’ve never worked somewhere where we got more than a 3% raise, so it’s not like I’ve ever expected a 5% or 10% raise. I’d like one, but I know it’s rare for my field.

    2. MoinMoin*

      I mean, your boss could feel guilty that she gave you a raise because you deserved it and as incentive to keep you only to find out two months down the road that she now has to lay you off. She would still lay you off. It’s just a business decision, I wouldn’t feel guilty about it.

    3. Parenthetically*

      “I know my manager would be devastated if I leave and might use the “you were the stronghold of our team/the only one who got a raise” if I give my notice once I find a new job.”

      I mean, that’s ok. He’s allowed to be sad or upset that you’re leaving. It’s his job to manage his emotions, and you don’t have to do it for him, or stay in a job you want to move on from, to protect him from disappointment.

    4. Zombeyonce*

      You should not feel guilty for considering leaving. Even if you were in a position with no worries about layoffs and wanted to leave, you shouldn’t feel guilty for wanting to improve your situation. But because your company is having re-orgs and layoffs, looking for something else is a smart move. Those perks that you like might make you stay, but it’s certainly worth seeing what else is out there; you might even find a better-paying position with the same or better perks, plus more job security!

      In the end, you have to do what’s right for you. You’re not going to be able to save this company just by staying, so think of your future.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Negative Nancy can get in our heads and tell us lies such as “the grass may not be greener”.
      The rebuttal to that is do your due diligence. Research the company and it’s culture. What about promotions/raises/PTO? Insist on facts. We can’t decide the grass is brown over there based on NO facts.

      Negative Nancy likes to point out there will be stricter rules where there is more money. This is probably true. Just because the rules are stricter is not the same as saying the rules are bad. Find out what the rules are first.

      I see your guilt over being the only person to get a raise. Bare with me here: Give the money back. End of problem.
      What? Not going to give the money back? Good. Don’t.

      You had to run through that train of thought because, see, it’s not the money, it’s Nancy AGAIN, trying to find some negative thing to say so she can put a baseball bat to your knees. When you hand in your resignation ask the boss if he will see to it someone else gets the raise money you were getting.

      Look, companies can retain people by good methods and by bad methods.

      Bad methods include GUILT. “Well I stayed at my last job for x years because I felt so guilty about leaving them.” That is not a resume building sentence. It’s okay to feel guilty, it’s not okay to do nothing. You can do things and just decide that feeling guilty goes with the process. Keep going with your life.

  25. ThursdaysGeek*

    My team is going to discuss the book ‘The Five Dysfunctions of a Team’. Our discussion is this afternoon. Has anyone else read it and what did you think?

    I’m the only remote person on my team, and I think it misses the dysfunction of poor communication. But I enjoyed it, and I’m looking forward to our meeting.

    1. fposte*

      I didn’t–do you recommend it? I would agree even without reading it that communication can be an important weakness, so maybe we need to write a book called The One Dysfunction of The Five Dysfunctions of a Team.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        I do recommend it. It’s easy to read – it tells a story of a dysfunctional team as they painfully learn how to become a team.

        The ones the book has are: absence of trust, fear of conflict, lack of commitment, avoidance of accountability, and inattention to results. But without the backstory of the book, that list alone is not very useful. The author is Patrick Lencioni.

        1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

          I just moved off from a highly dysfunctional team and you could add Personal Offensiveness to that list, but those look like the big hits. I would be curious to read this and see how it ties back to my experience!

          1. ThursdaysGeek*

            One of the characters was offensive and dismissive. She was eventually moved off the team, because her toxicity was a problem.

              1. ThursdaysGeek*

                Actually yes, in the fictional story, she was asked to leave the company. I just worded it poorly.

    2. BioPharma*

      It was okay. As with any of these types of books, it’s like, so how are we actually going to change?? At my work, I felt like nothing changed beyond our general discussion. In the book, individuals (fake examples) are lableed “the [adjective] one,” but who’s going to do that with co-workers? it would depend on each person so be insightful enough to know that they’re contributing to dysfunction by doing X, but that’s just not the reality of it.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Yeah, I am interested in seeing how it plays out in real life, with real people. However, we’re all peons on my team, and I do think we’re doing pretty well on the characteristics described in the book. I’ll keep your comment in mind and see if it makes any difference in the long run.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      I read this book a few years ago. The only valuable take-away I got was the pyramid graphic; I photocopied it and keep it with my work notes. I hope your discussion started off by defining what a “team” is, and what behaviors in your workplace would illustrate that. (Most of the “teams” I have been on weren’t anything more than a collection of co-actors, who essentially functioned independently of each other.) True teams, I think, have members who depend on each other to perform specific tasks, so that the work of the team–as a whole–will go forward.

      As I get older, I’ve concluded that how effectively work gets accomplished depends a LOT on how personally well-adjusted and professionally secure employees feel. Someone who is emotionally insecure/immature, or who feels disrespected and disconnected, can cause problems anywhere from degrading a unit’s response times/outputs, up to causing tremendous reputational damage to an entire office.

      I hope you will give us an update next Friday on how this discussion went, what you got out of it, and whether a company employee facilitated the event, or whether your company brought someone in from the outside.

  26. Nervous Accountant*

    Am I the problem or have I just had bad luck?
    I’ve posted my issues before but I started thinking about it and maybe I’m overthinking/getting paranoid.
    Quick background–at work we’re broken up into smaller teams.

    The “first” team I was assigned, I had major issues with the person I was working under. That was the CC (Creepy coworker) who gave me creeps, never spoke to me but criticized me endlessly to my bosses.

    They moved me away from him, and I eventually had my own team….which included the CW I spoke about most recently; when I gave him gentle feedback as a friend, he reacted horribly. (I tried to keep it brief but I can give more details if needed)

    Fortunately, this time around, I feel more confident and secure in my own self; it helps tremendously that my boss has had my back on this cw.

    Both times I’ve had issues, and both times I’m the common denominator.

    What am I doing wrong? :(

    1. Dr. KMnO4*

      I think you’ve just had bad luck. In my experience, when people wonder if they are the problem they generally aren’t. It’s the people who never question where the problem truly lies (because in their minds it’s obviously not them) that are, indeed, the problem.

      From what you’ve reported here it genuinely seems like your coworkers suck. I don’t think you are doing anything wrong.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Thanks. I think most of my coworkers are actually nice. Most of them are pretty decent, it’s just these few

    2. zora*

      Two incidents is not enough to be a significant data set!!! If you had a conflict with a coworker on every team for like 6-10 different teams, I might be encouraging you to look at yourself. But TWO! Come on. Yes, you have just had bad luck, it’s not your fault and you are doing a great job, obviously, because your manager has your back!!

      However, as someone who does similar things in my head, I would encourage you to look at why you are so quick to blame yourself! Either start seeing a therapist (which I finally just started doing and Holy Hannah, it’s making such a difference already) or just look at some online resources about internalizing other people’s crap.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Well….they weren’t just 1 off incidents, but relationships that deteriorated over time. I’m more worried it’s a pattern that *I’M* the difficult one to work with. In both cases, I put my best foot forward, I gave everyone the benefit of the doubt. I even got along great with teh second one. but…yeah.

        1. zora*

          right, but it’s 2 people out of all of the people you have worked with! I was just talking about this with my therapist actually, putting more weight on the rare negative experiences, and ignoring the vast majority of positive experiences, and then beating myself up. I think you are doing the same thing. ;o) Give yourself a break!

        2. Not So NewReader*

          It’s really good that you are doing self-checks. Keep that habit. In these cases, I think you have just had rotten luck.

          Understand too that keeping long term relationships (with healthy people) is still hard work.

          Perhaps change your expectation a bit by telling yourself that all relationships take work. The beauty of this one is that you start to notice MORE how you are working at things and the other person may NOT be working at things. You can start to gauge this because you know the types of efforts you have put forth and what efforts do you see coming from the other person?
          This is another important feature of relationships of any sort, BOTH people have to work at it.
          It might be helpful to watch people who get it right with work relationships. For my own education, I like to watch people who handle situations with grace and finesse. It helps with my self-check, as to how I am doing AND it helps me to understand better when a behavior is over the top.

  27. Ann O'Nemity*

    What are your coworker pet peeves? Did you address them? If so, how?

    Right now I’m really annoyed with a coworker who sings part of sentences. She has a unusually high pitched voice anyway and will sometimes sing phrases in a soprano. When questioned, she says she’s just “having fun.” It is driving me crazy like nails-on-a-chalkboard.

    1. Amber Rose*

      MAC* whistles and hums and talks to himself incessantly. I’m torn between whether or not this is worse than my previous neighbor cutting her fingernails all the time. Both whistling and nail clipping are horrible horrible noises. I have done nothing except crank my own music up, because I know well enough that nothing I say will accomplish anything.

      *I’ve started calling him MAC as a convenient name slash acronym that stands for Most Annoying Coworker. He is the one who previously yelled my name repeatedly while I was on the phone until I snapped at him, at which point he revealed he just wanted to know if I was on the phone.

    2. all aboard the anon train*

      People who clip their fingernails or toenails at their desk. We work in an open plan and it grosses me out so much. Go to the bathroom!

      Also people who decide the best time to try to talk to you is not at any point throughout the day, but when you’re clearly packing up and putting on your coat. There’s a couple people at work who do this, but one is the worst and shuffles along at 4:45 to start up a conversation or when someone is clearly on the way to the cafeteria, and does not take the hint even if you say, “I’m trying to go to lunch/go home, can we talk tomorrow morning?”. It’s never about anything important.

      HOWEVER, my biggest pet peeve is the one coworker who insists I must love cats, even though I keep telling her that I’m allergic and they freak me out. She says she “doesn’t see me as a dog person” and it’s really, really annoying that she keeps trying to tell me I’m a cat person and keeps sending me videos and pictures of cats. I’m not a cat person. Let it go. I like my extra large dogs just fine. I don’t know why she doesn’t talk to the people in our department who do love cats.

      1. Squeeble*

        I once shared a moment with one coworker where we complained together about someone else who clips their nails at their desk. Then a while later, I walked past the first coworker’s desk and she was doing the exact same thing. I was baffled.

        I’ll take care of an occasional hangnail at my desk, but the full set of fingers…no!

        1. Spoonie*

          I have several coworkers who clip their nails at work. And two coworkers who apparently see nothing wrong with doing a full mani/pedi. On each other. I’m baffled. Yes, I’ll resolve the occasional hangnail or file a rough edge that’s driving me crazy. But I don’t want to smell your nail polish or hear your clippers.

          1. zora*

            GAH! My skin is crawling with these stories, I really can’t even. My boyfriend and I don’t even clip our nails in front of each other!!! We each do it in the bathroom with the door closed. ::::shuddershudder::::

            1. mreasy*

              I have apologized to my husband when I clipped with the bathroom door open after realizing he was in the side of the apartment from which he might be able to hear! So. awful.

        2. Limi*

          I will occasionally trim and clean my nails at work. Admittedly, I prefer to have my nails short as the corners grow-in all the time and my job typically makes my hands (and nails by extension) very grimy. My co-workers are mostly older men, and don’t seem to mind all that much.

          That said, I don’t make a show of it either.

      3. Kowalski! Updates!*

        Let me start by saying that, on the whole, my team is pretty cool and we get along really well, but there’s one woman who I think must have been a Manic Pixie Dream Girl WAAAAAY back in the day, and the “manic” and “girl” bits are there in spades. Within two weeks of starting here last year, I knew far more than I ever would have wanted to know about a co-worker’s bipolar disorder, her mother’s alcoholism, how bananas are just the best thing EVER when baking and rabbits are the best pets ever (she’s a very vocal vegan)…you get the picture. What makes it more trying is that she can be very inappropriate with the males on our team – comments on tightness of trousers, offers of back rubs, putting her knee up on people’s desks…being female and not particularly interested in rabbits has spared me, luckily, but with all the to-ing and fro-ing trying to be the ingénue of the office, I’m not sure how much work actually gets done. It doesn’t seem to bother the management that much, though…she’s been here 9 years.

      4. zora*

        Wait, you have MULTIPLE coworkers who clip their nails at their desks?!?!?!?!? AAHHHHH!!!!! You might literally be working in my worst nightmare… I am so sorry. :o(

        1. all aboard the anon train*

          YES. It drives me insane. I want to gag every single time I hear the nail clipper. It’s one of those things that doesn’t both me when I do it, but when other people do it, I find it unbearable.

      5. Non-Profit Accountant*

        I don’t…I don’t understand the nail clipping thing. Why, WHY, are people engaging in personal grooming habits at their work desk? Why?! Like, I understand keeping a small pair of clippers at work for the occasional broken nail/hanging cuticle, but to make it A Thing That You Do is so incredibly bizarre to me. I would get annoyed with housemates that would clip their nails (toes or fingers!) in common spaces of the house…but coworkers especially please, please do this in private and NOT AT WORK.

    3. Volunteer Coordinator in NoVA*

      My current boss is so loud and has a really annoying fake laugh and it drives me (and everyone nuts). It seems like maybe our ED has asked her to be more aware (because of some temporary changes made in the past) but it has yet to really make a difference. I now wear headphones at least 50% of the day to deal with it but it doesn’t really seem to matter. I’m currently at the eating crackers stage with her because of a bunch of things so every time I hear her voice, it just raises my blood pressure.

    4. Muriel Heslop*

      I hate when I am in our departmental office and people are listening to music on their phones or computers without headphones. Even worse when they are singing along out loud!

    5. Not Today Satan*

      We take a lot of calls in my cubicle farm and the person behind me speaks in FULL VOLUME constantly. It is so incredibly distracting to me.

    6. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I have no solution. But I do sympathize. People who do this drive me bonkers.

    7. Nanc*

      Oh, so OffKey Songstress now works with you! I worked with her early in my career and could not understand why our supervisor didn’t shut that down as we worked with the public in a government office . . .

      I handled it by constantly asking her to repeat herself (politely, as in “pardon, I didn’t catch the last part?” or “I don’t understand, what exactly do you need?”) and if she kept singing I would ask her to write it down as I was having trouble understanding what she needed/wanted. She pretty much stopped asking me anything, just left notes if someone else wasn’t there to process her request.

    8. Lily in NYC*

      This is gross but it’s making me crazy – someone on this floor has something very wrong with her ladyparts and our bathroom smells like a rancid uterus – it usually happens for a few days at a time and then stops for a few weeks and then starts up again. Seriously, people walk into the bathroom, gag, and then run out to go to a different floor. I have no idea how to address it (even though I know who has the problem there is no way I would “report” her because I don’t want her to be humiliated nor do I think anyone would do anything about it).

      1. ANON*

        wowza. Have you tried placing a bottle of poop-purri in the bathroom, in hopes that the smell would be masked? It obviously isn’t for that intended use, but perhaps the residual pleasant smell would help?

        1. Lily in NYC*

          I was thinking about that! I think other people are also grossed out because someone brought in a strong air freshener. So now it smells like banana cream pie and rotten fish in the bathroom.

          1. Tempest*

            We have special sanitary waste bins which seal better than an open garbage can in our bathroom. They have something in them that smells like cinnamon to try and mask it a bit as well. A company comes and swaps them monthly but we don’t have a lot of females in the business and even less who need to worry about menstrual products. We also supply diaper bags for people to tie the used products up in to try and cut down on smells even more. Is there something like that your company could explore?

      3. Clever Name*

        I’ve noticed this phenomenon in public bathrooms too. Given the frequency and duration, I would imagine you’re smelling used menstrual products (sorry if that’s too gross- I’m a biologist and immune to most body-related grossness). Maybe see if you can get a small trash can that seals better or has those sticky air freshener things in them.

    9. BBBizAnalyst*

      I have a coworker who interrupts every conversation. Doesn’t matter the topic. He will interject with his two cents that no one has asked for. It’s the most annoying thing because he’s condescending and acts like a 40 year old toddler.

    11. crypticone*

      I have a coworker who stomps. Everywhere. And our office is in an older building with wooden floors, so I keep waiting for her to put a foot straight through!

    12. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Ive got a coworker who keeps fiddling with her long hair, usually when she is thinking and/or bored which happens often. So she sits up and runs her hands through her hair and then whatever strands have some out, deposits them in the shared recepticle between us.

      We sit at a shared bench desk in an open plan office. I now find her hair all over my part of the desk thanks to the power of static electricity. Its almost to BEC stage (or Get Me Some Scissors, Now!).

      How do you address that? Hey, dont play with your hair cause I found some under my coffee cup this morning?

      1. Rat in the Sugar*

        Why don’t you try rolling up a piece of tape (or using double-sided tape) and stick it on the desk right above the trashcan, and then ask her to please push the stray hairs down on the tape instead of putting them in the trash? That might help corral the strays. (Though speaking as someone with long, thick hair, it may get everywhere whether she’s playing with it or not, unfortunately).

    13. Lady Bug*

      People who are incompetent or lazy so I have to clean up their messes or do it myself. Haven’t figured out how to fix that lol

    14. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      One of my coworkers must win the award for Most Negative Person Ever because she never has a positive comment to make, only negative. She also acts like the sky is falling if she isn’t at work for a day.

      1. Lemon Zinger*

        Ugh, I worked with a Negative Nancy too. They are the worst! They bring down everyone’s mood.

    16. Lemon Zinger*

      My teammate has been with us for almost six months. She is still not comfortable presenting to groups larger than 50 (a regular duty for us) and has not mastered our line of work. Normally I wouldn’t be irritated by slow learners (I am one myself), but she makes no effort to get up to speed. She is careful to always look/act like she knows what she’s doing and never asks for help, so we discover her inadequacy at the most inconvenient times.

      I had been hoping she’d quit, but it looks unlikely at this stage.

    17. Gadget Hackwrench*

      The “stop having fun guys” guy. If you’re on a team that doesn’t have one, it’s wonderful. I’ve been in that situation many times before. I also once worked someplace where the “stop having fun guys” guy was both my boss and officemate. That was hell. At my current job when the “stop having fun guys” guy sat on the opposite side of the office from me, everything was fine. Now he sits right behind me, and is irritated at pretty much anything those of us from this end of the office do. This is the guy who thinks the appropriate level of jocularity and small talk in the office is ZERO. The kind of person who thinks if you’re smiling at work you must not be taking your job seriously.Who sneers at people who have “too many” personal items in their cubicle. (Seriously the two people he targets the hardest are the two who have personalized their work space beyond a coffee cup or one framed picture.) He goes about with a constant aire of “More Professional Than Thou.” Get over it. We’re in IT. If we didn’t joke sometimes we’d weep.

    18. RavensandOwls*

      … yikes.

      Mine are people who show up unannounced at my office. I mean, I’m not doing anything sketchy in there, but a head’s up would be nice.

    19. Jaguar*

      Eating with their mouth open. OMFG this drives me up the wall. A couple co-workers who sit near me do it and I have to retreat to earphones. I can concentrate on abstract programming logic with loud meetings and phones and all that stuff going on around me, but hearing someone chew food is showstopping. It’s totally disgusting.

      1. Hnl123*

        omg I feel your pain. One of my office mates ate a lot of food open mouthed and it drove me bonkers. Sometimes I could hear it through the headphones. …shudders….

    20. zora*

      coworker who grabs the bag of snacks (common for everyone to share) and takes the whole bag back to her desk because she doesn’t want to “waste” one of the disposable bowls, which means she is hogging the bag, but also she is reaching her hands in the bag to eat out of it, instead of pouring some out like the rest of us do. Makes me totally germ obsessed even though I’m not usually. I did address it by bringing it up twice, and she just keeps brushing it off as not wanting to be wasteful with the bowls, and I gave up because I couldn’t figure out how to keep the frustrated tone out of my voice if I said it a third time.

      And they aren’t technically coworkers, but the others on the floor who leave their dirty coffee mugs in the sink instead of putting them in the clearly marked DIRTY MUGS bus tubs. And just in general leave huge messes in the kitchen and then walk away. Yes, we have a regular cleaning crew, but they aren’t your mother!! You are a grownup, you can grab a paper towel and wipe up the milk you just spilled all over the counter!! GAH! Haven’t addressed for the most part, because we are just neighbors in a cowork space, I don’t know them. But if I am close enough when someone puts their mug in the sink, I have acted casual about being all “Oh, hey, those actually go in these tubs right here.” But usually I am not there when it happens, just go in the kitchen and find a dozen mugs piled up in the sink.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Put up a sign that says, “Do NOT remove bags of snacks from this table [desk/whatever].”

        1. zora*

          Yeah, I wish, but there are only 3 of us in our office, so that would be too aggressive and obvious. I’m just letting it go for now, and avoiding the snacks that she tends to stick her hand in. I order the snacks, so I am deliberately ordering some things she doesn’t really like, I’ll go with that for now.

      2. all aboard the anon train*

        Yes to your second pet peeve! I also get grossed out when people let their dishes soak to soften the food before they wash them. I don’t want to see the soggy remainders of your meal when I’m trying to wash my own dishes or stopping in for a drink. The kitchen office is not your personal kitchen.

    22. Zombeyonce*

      I have a coworker that is constantly doings accents (other countries, different US regions w/recognizable speech patterns, movie characters) and it drives me up the wall. It’s not even that she’s bad at them, and I have a hard time figuring out exactly why it makes me so crazy, but man I wish she’d just talk like herself all the time.

      Does anyone else get driven batty by this kind of behavior? Why does it make me so crazy?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        To me it’s unnecessary audio clutter. I have a slight scarring on my inner ears. It’s not a big deal. But if I have to sort through accents/jargon/etc I am working harder to follow along.

        On a personal level I have a friend who talks in foreign voices when Friend is in psychosis. So there is a creepy overtone to the voices for me.

        I think my main irritation is “Why can’t you just say what needs to be said and get back to work? Not everything demands a creative reply.” It just seems like a waste of time and energy.

      2. zora*

        Yeah, that is annoying. I find accents fun, and I WANT to do them all the time, but I hold myself back because it’s not as funny to other people as it is in my head. I feel like doing anything silly too often is annoying. She needs to cut it out.

    23. motherofdragons*

      The people who come into my office, even when the door is shut, to tell me something either A) not work-related, or B) that could’ve easily been sent in an email. I now have a sign up that says “Working Away, Thanks for not disturbing!” but I will still get them walking by my window, doing the “Are you on a call?” hand signal, and I don’t want to lie so I shake my head no…and boom. With one particular person, it worked for a little while to tell her, “I’m working hard on a tight deadline right now, so I’m gonna keep my door shut to focus. If anything comes up about XYZ project, could you please just email me?”

    24. Sigh*

      I’m in an open office setting and the coworker who sits next to me has a loud, drawn out sigh that gets on my nerves. And Coworker sighs all day long.

    25. Chaordic One*

      I had a former department supervisor who had “personal hygiene” issues. I don’t know if she didn’t do laundry or didn’t bathe regularly, or just what. Let’s just say that you could smell her coming in front of your cubicle.

  28. Amber Rose*

    I brought it up briefly last week but I’m going to bring it up again because it’s pretty dire.

    I have no references.

    My boss at my last job, in an office of 8 people, died tragically. Everything went downhill. I became ill from stress and I left the company on very, very bad terms with pretty much everyone. There was a lot of screaming and crying. I am not exaggerating.

    There’s nobody left at the company prior to that. The two ladies from that company who gave me references have since retired and do not use LinkedIn. My manager at that place was forbidden from giving references as company policy so I don’t have contact info for her. I don’t even remember the names of the other people in that office, not that it would matter since we didn’t do much work together. My job was mostly in the basement archives alone.

    Is it impossible for me to find another job?

    1. katamia*

      Oof. I’m sorry about your boss/last job.

      It’s not impossible. But it’s going to be much more difficult. (Says someone with one reference from 2007 and no others, and since people usually want three I’m just as out of luck as you are.) I wound up contracting and freelancing because I just couldn’t find anything decent (and my standards for “decent” are, I think, a lot lower than most AAMers–I’ve had zero benefits and zero vacation days at all but one of my jobs). Depending on what kinds of jobs you’re looking for and the norms for your field/location, you may have to get creative.

    2. orchidsandtea*

      Oh, Amber, how stressful. Can you get personal contact info for the retired women and your old manager? I know she’s not supposed to be a reference, but that’s a rule made to be broken because it’s absurd.

      All you need is one job to take a chance on you. Then you’ll have a good reference, and you can move forward from there. So while it might be crummy now, it’s not like you’re destined to have things be crummy forever.

      I have a couple options for references now, but previously I had my current boss, my ex-coworker, and my mother. Yes, my mother. (Worked for the family business.) It was not great. I got my foot in the door here through a temp agency, and it ended up being a great fit and good for my professional development. You can also put volunteer references if you desperately need to.

      1. Amber Rose*

        No, I already know there’s no way the company would give me that information even if they still have it. It would be a breach of confidentiality. They took privacy and security way, way seriously.

        I do some work on the board for a non-profit and could probably use one of the other board members as a reference, but there’s been drama there too recently and I’m just not sure if that bridge is burned or not. Plus that’s only one reference and the work I do there isn’t really related to anything I do for pay.

        1. orchidsandtea*

          I mean, I meant through Google/Facebook/the yellow pages. Most people are findable if you try hard enough.

        2. Volunteer Coordinator in NoVA*

          I often gave references to volunteers, even if it wasn’t in the field they were working in. I use to have a ton of unemployed volunteers and it was just a good way to show that they had been engaged in something while they were unemployed/ were reliable and valuable. I’m sure it doesn’t hold the same weight as an employee reference but could help somewhat. Is there anyone on the staff (like the ED) that you could ask?

    3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      “Unfortunately, my manager at my last job passed away shortly before I left, and my only two other contacts there who could speak to my performance have since retired and didn’t give me a way to stay in touch. Also, I usually worked solo in that role.”

      1. fposte*

        The problem is that a plausible explanation for a lack of references doesn’t redress the disadvantage of having no references. It would be a big obstacle for us, and I don’t think we could even get a no-reference hire through HR.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Yeah, that’d be really rough. OP, is this your first job or something? Is there anybody else, like a professor, a mentor, a volunteer coordinator, who could speak to your professionalism?

          1. Amber Rose*

            No, it’s my third job since graduating 6 years ago. I’ve never volunteered and I didn’t really get to know any of my professors.

            I’ve got one possible reference from the board of the non-profit I’m on, but to not have three, or anything from a manager after six years is going to be difficult to get around and I’m starting to worry it’s impossible.

            1. NaoNao*

              Okay some possible solutions:
              Friendly coworkers–don’t have to be a direct team member, but is there anyone who might remember you fondly that would do you a solid by vouching for your work?
              Friends who’ve worked with you or co-students who worked with you on group work at college? Long shot I know, but…maybe?
              Clients–have you ever worked with clients or customers that might vouch for you?
              Professional portfolio or reputation–can you submit content to blogs that syndicate content or become a LinkedIn Influencer (writer of articles)? Could you start your own blog? I did, for a niche within my profession and I’m pretty sure it was a factor in getting hired, sight unseen, from overseas!

              Also, I’m not 100% on this, but I’m pretty sure my last three jobs (my professional career, basically) did not check my references.

              1. Hnl123*

                for my current job, I had my coworker and my friend (not even remotely work related, simply my friend) serve as my references. And this is for a good FT job. Not all is lost!

            2. Not So NewReader*

              What about church? If you don’t go now, did you ever? Sometimes ministers are willing to help out especially if they know the person is in a bind.

    4. EW*

      I’ve been hired for three jobs without needing to give references. I didn’t even realize it was important until reading this site. Try to utilize references from volunteer work or professional organizations, provide the company name/phone number to see if they will verify you working there and explain the policy of no references from the manager. Mostly, I’m sorry this all happened to you, and it is not impossible (even though it feels that way). I’d make sure to write down names and phone numbers of any potential future references in the job you’re definitely going to get at some point in the future.

    5. Agile Phalanges*

      Ugh, that sucks. I’d say explain it as best you can to the folks who do ask for references, provide whatever references you can (from volunteer work, side gigs, personal references, etc.), and hope that you can get hired somewhere that doesn’t actually care about references.

      My boss didn’t reference-check me, citing my 13 straight years with the same company as proof of my reliability and trustworthiness when I asked. (The kicker is, my predecessor was fired for embezzling after 13 straight years of employment under HIM, so you’d think he’s consider that when deciding how useful reference checks could be. Luckily for him, I AM trustworthy.)

    6. Piano girl*

      I was in the same situation. One previous boss had died, another one (non-profit ED) had been fired after I had mentioned to a board member how awful it was to work there. I ended up temping. My supervisor on my first temp job wrote me a glowing recommendation, which helped me land the next temp job – which quickly turned into a full-time position. Temping is a great way to begin/begin again.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      This may or may not help. My husband’s best friend ask my husband to help with BG check for security clearances. My husband said sure. The investigator called and the conversation was not the best, until my husband said, “Buddy carries a key to my house on his key ring.” The conversation shifted dramatically, “What?!” My husband explained that he trusted Buddy completely. The interviewer hung up very happy.

      If you have someone like this in your life, someone whose house you can just walk into or house/pet sit while they are away, they could vouch for your trustworthiness. That could be of some help.

  29. Maggie*

    I’m pretty sure there are studies out there about this, but in your personal experience – do you feel that being overweight is a hinderance to getting a job? (I mean this purely based on appearance, regardless of whether someone is actually healthy).

    The rationale given is usually that being overweight signals laziness or lack of willpower – is any of that actually true? When people talk about difficulty in diets willpower seems to come up a lot, but does it actually give indication of how they’d treat other aspects of life?

    (I expect people who are in hiring roles would exert better, more well-rounded judgements, but it doesn’t seem to apply to all).

    1. orchidsandtea*

      I wonder if it depends on both the individual and the industry/company culture. Clearly, some individuals mistakenly believe that weight and character are interrelated. And some cultures are very focused on how things appear — I’m thinking of fashion, politics, etc.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Yeah, I think industry culture, and possibly also geography. I work at a college in the Midwest, and it’s a pretty negligible factor.

        We had a really good discussion on here a year or two ago about how “how you do one thing is how you do everything” is actually pretty fallacious–we all have priorities, and we can’t all devote 100% to every endeavor under the sun. We’ve all met someone whose office is clean and house is dirty, or vice versa. And how I do my job is not how I diet, and it’s definitely not how I art, as evidenced by the horrible crafting mess that’s currently wrecking my house. LOL.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Yes.

      My last job during the interview, the owner repeatedly brought up that I would have to walk up and down the stairs to get to the filing. It was pretty blatant why he kept bringing it up. I think I was only hired because the office manager, who was also there, was horrified by his behavior on my behalf.

      Thing is, that’s not always going to be true, it’s just that it’s certainly true with a good chunk of people and some of those are going to be hiring managers.

    3. katamia*

      Weight doesn’t indicate how lazy or motivated someone is, but enough people think it does that it could be a problem.

      For employers who want employees who look “polished” (common in postings for admins around here, at least), it can also be harder for overweight people, especially women, to dress in a polished manner, and even if they do dress that way, a hiring manager could believe that it’s impossible for someone over a certain size to actually be polished.

      1. Emilia Bedelia*

        I think it’s not necessarily that it’s harder for larger people to dress “polished” (though limited/more expensive clothing selection for plus size women is a real issue!), it’s that some people just don’t see them as such. Similar to how, to some, black women’s hair is only considered “professional” if it’s relaxed or styled- the default image of “polished”/”attractive”/”professional” just doesn’t include larger sized people or differences. And it’s not even something that a lot of people are conscious of- a hiring manager may think that they are being unbiased, but when it comes to decision making time, their unconscious perceptions of the candidates may sway their decision.
        It’s a terrible thing, all round- none of that should matter!

        1. katamia*

          I’d consider limited/more expensive clothing choices to fall under the general category of “harder,” though. :)

          I agree with you, though–none of this should matter at all.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Oh no it isn’t. Coworker at Exjob, very overweight, looked better every day than I did on my best days. Polished and stylish as hell. I always was tempted to drag her along anytime I went clothes shopping (which isn’t often because I suck at it).

        1. katamia*

          It’s not that no one who’s overweight can ever look polished, it’s that it can take more time, energy, and money to look polished if you’re above a certain size (and for other body types, too, like for people who are very tall or very short). Not everyone has the ability or desire to spend that extra time, energy, and money to look that way.

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            And, as others have said, sometimes being slender is a condition for being considered polished.

      3. mreasy*

        “Polished” is often used as dogwhistling for white/lightskinned and slender body type in job descriptions. It’s something thoughtful workplaces shouldn’t include.

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Oh, this is a good question. I’ve been fortunate that I haven’t experienced any issues in my career (academia and corporate). All of my jobs have had training/outreach/client services components which require a lot of visible interactions up, down and across the organizational chart. I’ve read/heard the same thing about overweight people and getting hired, so I may overcompensate to counteract those preconceptions – I’m conscious of being well dressed/groomed, I’m pretty outgoing at work (although that’s not my natural state), I’m very organized. I do wonder if it will become more of an issue if I want to move further up the corporate ladder.

    5. Anon for this*

      I hire people for an office job and I do not care about weight one bit. I will admit, however, to having a bit of a bias when choosing professionals in certain settings where I feel weight is relevant. My doctor is really overweight and I’ll admit that gave me a moment of pause. Then I realized just because she knows what is best, doesn’t mean she follows it for herself. I also go to a yoga studio that has a teacher that does not look like a typical yoga teacher. I actually like his class best! But, my initial first reaction was hmmm…. will his classes give me the workout I’m looking for?

    6. fposte*

      I think the rationales are BS but that being overweight can indeed be held against applicants. I would also say that the prejudice is variable and that region and field matter a lot.

    7. FishCakesHurrah*

      I’m certain it’s a hindrance. In past jobs I’ve had co-workers and superiors comment, with surprise, on how energetic, conscientious, professional, and hard-working I am. I guess they expected me to be a stupid sloth because I’m large. I’ve learned that if I’m am interviewed by a man or a male-heavy panel I won’t get the job. Never have. If my interviewer is a woman who is overweight herself I know my chances are very, very good.

    8. Jules*

      Not in good organizations. In terrible ones, yes. Ideally, managers should hire for their competency. But if they have a good pool of qualified candidates, it could be anything (race, gender, school they went to, street address they live at).

    10. MWKate*

      I’ve never personally been in a situation where I’ve felt I was turned down for a job because of my weight – but it is certainly always something I am concerned about. I’ve been told (by my very thin, petite mother) that employers will judge me based on my size, which probably contributes to that.

      I’m sure some of it depends on the region and industry (which makes me nervous as I am going to be leaving my upper Midwest city for a college closer to the east coast), but when it comes down to it – I think it’s just if you have an interviewer that is a jerk or not. Which sucks.

    11. Tuckerman*

      The rationale you brought up. In many instances, people gain weight because they dedicate so much time and energy to their jobs, they have little time and energy to work out or cook healthier meals.

    12. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Yes. I had one place tell me that I had to wear dress pants because jeans don’t look professional on overweight people. Direct quote. That was the first of many red flags that started waving in the breeze. I ended up quitting after 5 months total.

    13. twig*

      I had one supervisor who, when hiring for “greeters” (at a housing development) asked us to see if they were “height-weight proportionate” yes, it was a dog whistle. She often made remarks like that.

      Being that I was the largest person in that workplace, I often wondered what she said about me when I wasn’t around. Although— she DID hire me.

    14. Grease kitten*

      I feel that not being conventionally good looking and slightly overweight places me at a disadvantage in my industry. Mostly because it’s a good ol’ boys industry with mostly men in positions of power that would rather hire eye candy that they think they have a chance of getting in bed than someone who is unattractive but competent.

  30. Chicken may*

    I am job hunting, but I have plenty of time to find something. I’m in a grant funded position that is through an organization that is very unpopular with conservatives doing work that is associated with the ACA in a very conservative area. My grant is up in August so I’m applying for things I think I would like since I have some time. Anyway I had an interview and in it I had to do a short training presentation. I was thrown off because everyone was remote and I was not told that would be the case, then one of the people asked me if I voted for Trump. He asked after they asked why I was looking and I explained it seemed with the current political climate my grant would not be renewed. Another person said you don’t have to answer that and I didn’t. It really took me out of the moment and I did not do as well as I could have on the training presentation. At that point I figured it wasn’t going to be for me anyway. So I got the thanks but no thanks email from their HR person, and was tempted to respond saying it was inappropriate to be asked that in the interview and maybe they should talk to the person about it. I didn’t because I guess it wouldn’t have much of a point, it just made me pretty angry, and wanted to vent.

      1. Artemesia*

        I agree. When I interviewed 40 years ago, I was asked in a group interview — me and a panel of key players questioning me — if I planned to have any more children. I had one at the time. Yeah I am going to discuss that with strangers. I said ‘Well that is between my husband, god and me.’ Years later when I was running the department, I stumbled on my file — one of the people who voted to hire me stated it was because of my strong religious faith. LOL

    2. AFRC*

      I actually think it would be useful to mention that to HR. I’m glad the other person spoke up in the interview, but if I was an HR person, I’d want to know that that was happening. You can say it in an “I know that this is likely an outlier, but this happened in the interview, and I thought you should know about it.” And mention that someone else did step in. It won’t help YOU per se, but it would alert them to something that shouldn’t be happening.

      1. Chicken may*

        That is along the lines of what I was thinking. There were other red flags, like the four people doing the job I was interviewing for had all been there for a year or less and said no one else had been there much longer, an inability to really give a clear idea of the amount of travel, and some other overly paternalistic questions from the guy who asked me who I voted for to name a few. I was thinking the HR person has no idea since she wasn’t in the interview and they could really face some consequences for things like that happening. I don’t want the job so don’t care if it would help or hurt me in the future.

      2. NaoNao*

        It’s not illegal to *ask* offensive, intrusive, ill advised questions. It’s illegal to *make hiring choices based on the answers* so most savvy interviewers stay away from them.

        1. Natalie*

          Although in this case, even that wouldn’t be illegal. “Political ideology” isn’t a protected class federally or in most (all?) states.

  31. orchidsandtea*

    I negotiated a retroactive title increase! I showed my manager the 5×7 piece of scratch paper with 7 bulletpoints that was my entire job description and onboarding. Then I showed her the training and documentation I created for incoming customer service reps and admins, and we talked about the process improvement I’d done.

    Instead of “Customer Support Specialist,” my resume will say “Assistant Manager.”

    It’s my last day before maternity leave, and I’ll miss it here, but I am so pleased and proud of what I’ve accomplished. I’m leaving the team in better shape than I found it, and I learned so much from my coworkers. Also, my manager bought me a new electric kettle as a thank-you gift.

    2. Just Jess*

      Way to go! Just about anything is possible with the right connections, knowledge, and mentality.

      How long had you worked before requesting the revised title? Maybe this detail was on a previous post and this week is a follow up.

      1. orchidsandtea*

        Three months. I’m a temp! I disclosed my pregnancy when the temp agency made the offer, and the recruiter said “oh no problem.” I went, “Well, it’s a job.”

        Management hadn’t defined the role before I came onboard — they just knew they needed administrative help. I was expecting busywork for 3 months, but there was so much interesting work to do and the manager was happy to let me run with any helpful project. So I did define and perform the admin role, but I also went further by creating the job description, training materials, etc. that was needed.

        I’m pretending the US is Canada, so I’m taking a full year off, and we’ll see if they need me next March. I’d love to come back.

  32. Mimmy*

    What a week!!! Main questions: 1) I9 forms, 2) working two jobs with state agencies

    I started my short-term temp job (set to last approx. 2 months) on Monday even though the temp agency hadn’t contacted me by then (this is a contract project with a state agency). Well, the temp agency finally contacted me the next day, and the paperwork I had to do was surprisingly extensive, which totally ate into the time I wanted to devote to the project.

    1) Anyway, I have to fill out an I9 form and have it notarized because the on-boarding department of the temp agency is not in my state. So I went to the UPS store, but they are no longer allowed to notarize I9 forms. Has anyone else encountered this?

    2) The other job that I’m currently awaiting completion of background checks is also with a state agency. My employment counselor said this may be tricky come tax time and I wanted to get your take. The short-term assignment is, as I said above, being paid through the temp agency. The other job, as an instructional aide, seems to be going directly through the state agency hiring for the position, though I think it is also considered temporary. Hard to explain.

    Both jobs are within the same state department: The short-term project is through the Division of Teapot Users; the instructional aide job is through the Commission for Teapot Makers. These two divisions are under the Department of Teapot Services. So I just want to be sure that I’m not going to have a problem come tax time next year. Or if there are any other mines I should watch out for.

    But….employment….FINALLY!! :D

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I had no idea that UPS notarized things. Banks usually have someone on staff to notarize; I’ve been able to get it done even if I’m not a customer of that particular bank. Congratulations on your new job(s)!

      2. Shipping Guru*

        Some UPS Store owners/employees do notarize things. It’s a service that the parent company likes the franchises to offer. However, many store owners are hesitant to notarize documents because it’s a lot of liability for not a lot of reward. Many states limit the amount of money a notary public can charge to notarize a document, so you may be putting your name on the line for a few dollars.

        1. rubyrose*

          Yes to this statement about UPS offering notary services. I found I needed to call the store in advance to see if they had and notary and if so, what their hours were.

    3. fposte*

      It’s a pity the employment counselor wasn’t more specific, but I’m guessing she meant the withholding situation we discussed here a few weeks ago. Basically, if you withhold at the usual rate from those paychecks, you may not be withholding at a reasonable rate for the two together, so you’ll pay more taxes at filing next year. (You don’t pay any more taxes overall.)

    4. Former Notary*

      Pet peeve from when I was a notary: an I-9 is NOT notarized. I ran into this a couple times a month, unfortunately. A lot of companies are wrong on this.

      When something is notarized, you are saying “yes, this person is who they say they are to the best of my knowledge.” Signing an I-9 is saying “yes, this person is who they say they are and eligible to work in the US to the best of my knowledge.” Two different things. A good notary SHOULD refuse to notarize. In fact in my state (MT), the SOS has specifically directed notaries to not do so. When I was a notary, I did not touch them, period. Some may be willing to sign as the authorized representative, but IANAL and my company cited liability concerns to prevent all employees from signing, even non-notaries.

      Ideally your employer will find someone who (ideally) works for them to view your documents in person and sign the form. A lot of employers get around that when out of state by having you email/fax copies of your documents and stuff, but that’s their risk that they need to accept. I know of a few folks who asked a random person to sign based on their employer’s direction… I don’t know how well that would stand up if challenged. But if your temp agency has an office in your state, any of those people should be able to sign the form for you, I believe. This is really your employer’s responsibility to work out though, not yours.

      1. Mimmy*

        Well, I was under the gun on this, so I really didn’t have much of a choice.

        Here’s what happened: Fergus, the state agency director who approached me for the project, told me last Wednesday that I’d probably hear from the temp agency that day to get the ball rolling on me starting work. Meanwhile, we set up a meeting to discuss the project parameters for the following Monday.

        The day before our meeting, I emailed Fergus to tell him that the temp agency hadn’t contacted me, was it okay to still come in? Fergus says yes.

        Then on Tuesday, the temp agency finally contacts me and says that I needed to fill out the I9 and have it notarized ASAP (along with other forms online). Like–I only had maybe a day to have it done. The guy was hounding me a bit on Wednesday Because of the rush, I didn’t even think to check to see if there was an office in my state (I later found out on their website that there is). So I ended up going to our credit union, who was willing to do it.

  33. Rincat*

    I just wanted to tell the world how happy I am in my new job, and the main reason is because my bosses are night and day from my previous ones. I definitely left my last job because of management; I would have been fine with the work itself, but now I have a new job where I’m getting to do more of what I want to do, and for some really great people. Example: I kept trying to set up regular team meetings in my old job, to keep us all on track. My coworkers were happy to do this, but my manager rarely showed up to one. He would constantly cancel, or reschedule, then just not show up, etc. And these were just once a month meetings! It wasn’t like we were trying to meet every week. And forget one-on-ones…he’d never show up for those either. So we were left with very little feedback. I got to a point where if my boss did ask to talk to me, I would cringe, because he only ever wanted to talk to us if something was broken and he was freaking out about it.

    Now my new manager does informal check ins throughout the week, and a standing weekly team meeting, and we have a system to keep track of our work, and we discuss overall team and departmental goals. It’s wonderful. I don’t get micro-anxiety attacks when my boss wants to talk with me. My director is very clear about our department’s purpose and long term goals, and how we should do things. It’s amazing the difference!

    1. Spoonie*

      Congratulations! I totally get where you’re coming from on this. It feels a little weird sometimes, but it’s a good weird.

    2. Just Jess*

      Oh, that sounds lovely! Great for you. #ManagementGoals for me

      Did you ever get the feeling that management wasn’t being clear about purpose, vision, and long-term goals because they just plain didn’t know?

  34. rosenstock*

    what do you think is the right amount of time to wait before taking a vacation at a new job? i started my job in december 2016 and i’m planning on taking a week off in early september 2017. we’ll also be finishing a HUGE project at the end of august so it seems fitting for that reason also.

    1. ThatGirl*

      That’s plenty of time. Depends a little on company culture, but nine months is more than enough.

      We have use it or lose it PTO, so around here you have to start using at least some of it by June or risk being That Guy trying to take two-plus weeks off at the end of the year.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think that’s more than fine. I also started a new job in December, and I’m planning on a week off in July, which strikes me as totally normal. 6 months in is the general rule– though I will likely take a few days in April for a holiday.

      1. Lord of the Ringbinders*

        Brit here. Wow. I took time off one month in. (Ours is front-loaded.) You actually wait six months before having a single day off?!

    5. Namast'ay In Bed*

      I think you’ll be fine! Though I started a job on a Tuesday and took a half day that Friday to start a week-long vacation, so I’m one to talk about taking vacations early into a new job!

      Granted, this was agreed upon as part of my job offer, but still. (I was pleasantly surprised though that they let my borrow from PTO for it, I had assumed it would be unpaid.)

    6. Lemon Zinger*

      Generally, it’s not a good look to take time off in the first three months at a new workplace. You’ll be going on nine. That’s totally fine!

    7. BRR*

      You should be fine. At a lot of places they have a policy when you can take it and you can always ask. Two of my three employers had a three month waiting period and one had a six month. Six months felt forever to wait to take a day off. I can’t imagine what it is like for the people who have to wait a year. There is some more debate on whether you can take an entire week off but again I think you’re good.

  35. To Certify Or Not Certify*

    If you’re changing career directions, how do you determine whether getting certified is going to help with that change? I’m not talking about lawyers or doctors who most definitely need more degrees. I mean stuff more minor like accounting, event planning, marketing, things like that. I’m having a hard time figuring out if more study would help with my slightly changing career path. How do you figure that out?

    1. Amber Rose*

      Probably an informational interview or at least quick conversation would be the best way? Find someone who has the job you want and ask them if they think certifications are important or not in their field. Or even someone who hires in that field.

      1. zora*

        This: informational interviews. It really varies depending on the industry, the job, which certification you are talking about. Find some people on Linked In who have job descriptions you want to be in in 10 years or so and check their credentials, and preferably, find some people you can actually set up informational interviews with to ask more about the sector and advice on your career trajectory. I didn’t do this stuff when I was younger and Im really regretting some of my decisions now.

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Look at job openings in your field to see how often and in what context (must have/nice to have) certification is mentioned. I have certification in a field where most people aren’t certified, but it shows up in almost all job descriptions (including ones where it isn’t appropriate, like entry level positions).

      1. To Certify Or Not Certify*

        Okay, first, A+ for your screen name being a Leverage reference; that just made my day.

        The problem with this field is that it’s one of those unending circles where you need can’t get a job without having the experience but without the job, you don’t have the experience. I was thinking getting certified would be my best shot at some kind of ‘experience’ that could get me something entry-level to build more experience and grow from there.

    3. Sibley*

      If you’re thinking of a CPA license, yes, it will help. It’s a widely known and respected designation. Other ones maybe not. Looking at job postings and talking to people in the field should tell you. Don’t ask the organizations giving the certifications.

  36. Lord of the Ringbinders*

    All my usual, enjoyable work is on hold while a colleague and I spend ages clearing up some mistakes made by our predecessors that have just come to light. I normally love my job but this work is so mind numbingly hideous that I am climbing the walls. Argh.

    1. kbeers0su*

      I’m in the same boat here. Although I’m the one who dug up the issues that I’m now trying to address. I took over my office in July and ran non-stop until December. In January things were slow so I started poking around. Found tons of issues- files that were not upkept, files that are missing, notations that don’t match files, etc. I LOVE organization, but doing this for six weeks is excruciating.

      I should have known better than to go poking around, but it’s what I do. In our newish house I found a weird mark on a ceiling tile, which turned out to be a leak, which turned into thousands of dollars of new plumbing. Maybe there’s a lesson to be learned here?

  37. Cruciatus*

    I’ve been working as an administrative assistant for 1.5 years at my current place of employment (one of many branches of a huge university system). I applied for another role on campus and received an offer to interview. So now I’m struggling with whether to tell my current supervisor or not. If it were an external position I wouldn’t. But it will likely be odd when I need time off twice 2 weeks from now. One block for the doctor and one now 2 days later for my interview for “appointment” or whatever I have to say to get the time approved. It’s in a building that is attached to ours so I could get “caught” at any time walking to/from the interview in a suit. My boss knows everyone and surely knows people there, but I’m hoping that they are discreet (but…). I’ve only been here 1.5 years and I’ve just finally started learning the position, but my employer offered early retirement to eligible employees and many people took them up on the offer and now jobs are starting to show up in the postings. I have previous experience with some of the duties in the other department and it would be a 33% pay increase (which sounds super high, but keep in mind I’m paid pretty poorly), and I think I could be more myself in that role. I feel a bit stifled currently and our office environment is somewhat toxic (which seems impressive since there are only 4 of us). But maybe I don’t want the job/they don’t want me and then I tell my boss and she’s worried every time there’s a new posting or something. I’m also not 100% sure she won’t find fault with me if they ask about me despite there never being any problems (that I’ve been made aware of). There’s a lot going on in the department currently and I know there’s never a good time… What is proper etiquette for applying to another position on campus? I hate feeling like I’m screwing people over. I need to change my mindset but that is easier said than done.

    1. NW Mossy*

      Check your employee policy handbook – it’s highly likely that there’s a policy about internal transfers and what your obligations are as the potential transferee.

      I’m actually in the middle of this myself, as I just applied to transfer to another team at my company. Our policy says that you have to tell your current manager if you’ve been selected for an interview, but prior to that, it’s simply encouraged.

    2. Wing Girl*

      I’ve changed offices/jobs several times in my career at a university. I personally chose to let my supervisor know anytime I was interviewing elsewhere on campus. Partly because confidentiality on my campus is truly a myth and partly because I personally felt it was best to be open with my supervisors. In most cases, it allowed me to have a conversation with my supervisor about why I was looking, which gave the supervisor the opportunity to determine if they were able to make adjustments in my position to keep me (providing higher level or different work).

      There was one office I worked in where alerting the supervisor that you were job hunting could result in negative consequences, but that was an extremely toxic office. But that was an anomaly and in most cases helped increase my reputation as being open, honest, and upfront (which can’t have hurt with being able to move around campus to different jobs). But you need to assess if being open with your current boss might result in negative consequences.

    3. INeedANap*

      You could be me! I work at a large university and I too am looking to transfer between jobs and departments.

      I would just block the time off and not try to justify it – or if you have to justify it somehow, call it a “meeting”. Then let your supervisor know only when you would need to give her a head’s up she may be called as a reference.

      1. Cruciatus*

        Good luck to you! I think I’ll feel better if I just tell her instead of worrying if she already knows/could find out. She could see me walking there or coming back from the interview and then the jig will be up. I don’t want to but she’s worked in universities all her life so I can just hope that she understands that this is sometimes how it goes…

    4. Sadsack*

      You should find out what their policy is for this. They may have a policy that you must inform your manager if you apply for another job at the same place.

    5. Cruciatus*

      I checked the handbook and there’s nothing in there regarding this, but there are 3 pages about telephone etiquette. I even tried searching for keywords and nothing popped up.

      1. Sadsack*

        In that case, I think I would ask the HR if there is a policy. You don’t want to accidentally not follow policy and have your manager find out from someone else.

  38. Inexperienced*

    I’ve just been unexpectedly promoted to a role that I don’t really have enough experience for. It’s something where you need to make major decisions very quickly, and talking to other people in this role, they refer to “gut instinct” a lot. This is all well and good if you’ve been in similar situations and can make a call based on how those went, but I haven’t got that.

    Is there any way to fast-track this? What I’ve been doing so far is chatting to other people in the position about their horror stories, because everyone’s always happy to share those and it gives me more idea of what all can go wrong. But in my experience you have a hundred near-misses for every horror story and you learn just as much from the near-misses, even if you’d have a hard time recalling them later.

    Any advice? I’m obviously making it a point to get very familiar with the procedural/legal aspects – but so much of it is “use your best judgment.”

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      Trust yourself. Making a bad decision is often much, much better for an organization than not making a decision. An inexperienced guy who takes ownership is vastly more preferable than the renowned expert who sits back and makes sniping suggestions.

      Also, be prepared to fail. When you have to make major decisions under time pressure, you’re not going to be right 100% of the time. You will make bad decisions that affect things. Accept responsibility and learn from them. Analyze why things went wrong so you can avoid having them go wrong again, not so you can make excuses.

      Read up on imposter syndrome also. It could be playing a part here too.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      1)I have mentioned this one before but it’s been very helpful in my life. If you have to make a decision, you are uncertain and there is no one to ask, pick the option that is the easiest to fix if it is wrong.

      2)Have one very strong reason, well thought out, for your decision.

      3) Look for people willing to be informal mentors. In a similar vein, start a list of contacts, note next to the name of the person what it is that you think they can help with.

      4) Decide you will autopsy your mistakes and you will not make the same mistake twice. (This will be very helpful, don’t skate by this step.) Conversely, when things go well, see if you can reuse that solution in other instances.

      5) There are people upstream from your decision and there are people downstream from your decision. You can train your brain to quickly sort who will be impacted by your decision. This might help you figure which way to go.

      6) Where possible follow your decision along, how is it unfolding in real life? Where are the bumps? Where are the road blocks? This could be as simple as you sent forms to Pete for completion, so the next day you check in with Pete to see how that is going. Follow up, ask people if they have what they need, ask if it is in the format/organized the way they need it. Make notes to self.

      7) Let’s say you make a big mistake. The minute you realize something is wrong, tell your boss or the person impacted the most by your mistake. Offer to help clean up where you can. It’s amazing how making this simple commitment can go a long way to helping us make solid decisions. The more strongly I became committed to fixing my errors the sharper my judgement calls got.

      8) Last one. Let’s say you are faced with Choice A and Choice B. You have to decide FAST. If one choice offers you more options than the other, take the one with more options.

  39. Backwards and in high heels*

    I am very annoyed. This week my company told us we were not reaching a very important goal in time, so we are required to work at least 50 hours per week. I am not annoyed because the hours, but because TPTB never said anything about how hard we were working before (so it’s not like we are failing because we did not work hard enough), and because they justified this new rule saying that if we do fail, they will have to start with lay offs, my coworkers are freaking out thinkin they are going to be the first one because they are the newest hire or they are the most inexperienced or they essentially duplicate other coworker’s job.

    I am so very extra annoyed they did not offer anything like an extra day of PTO. Granted, if we manage we will keep our jobs, but it highlights a non spoken policy in my company of being very strict and vigilant about PTO usage, closing eyes to the fact that many people work 12 hours a day or weekends. TPTB could also have said something more about the day when we run out of money, so my coworkers who can’t really stay a day without a job, could decide now if they will have notice enough to get a new job and decide, for example, that they need to start looking next week. All they said was a vague “we are not going to run of of money until April…”. Does that mean May? Do you know a timeframe or it’s just speculation?

    But I guess I’m supper annoyed bcause I see this as a failure of management that’s being dump on us. TPTB should have know before this week that we were not going to reach the goal. Why did they wait or why they didn’t notice it? I am so tired now, and I still have to work tomorrow.

    1. AFRC*

      I am facing a somewhat similar situation in my job. The difference is that, thankfully, we’re all non-exempt and can’t work more than 40 hours per week. I just wanted to say that I COMPLETELY understand the frustration, and I’m sorry. I hope you can get out of there soon!

    2. meg*

      I would definitely be job searching if I was at any company talking about running out of money. I know you’re exhausted, but that is a Bad Sign, and they could easily decide to cut their losses sooner than April or May.

    3. Artemesia*

      Having been on a sinking ship, I hope your co-workers who are at risk are looking hard to move on; there is not much mercy when this happens.

  40. Liane*

    I’ve noticed lately that for the short-answer articles a lot of people are commenting about multiple questions in one reply. I find this makes those threads hard to follow. Does anyone else have this problem.

    2. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      I get online at around 6am in the UK (long commute!) and am often one of the first comments – I would feel pretty awkward posting multiple times!

    4. Claire (Scotland)*

      I much prefer that to one poster making multiple comments to respond to different questions, and I think it makes perfect sense for those type of posts.

      1. JaneB*

        Me too! I don’t have time to read all the comments on weekday posts but often way to follow up one q that is relevant/interesting to me and having each thread clearly about one of the topics makes that a lot easier to do!

  41. Jaguar*

    This is on the topic if Performance Improvement Plans (PIPs) and if they are an actual path to improving a flagging employee or if they are a fog horn that you’re about to be fired.

    I don’t have any experience with PIPs (never heard of people being put on one and have never been on one myself), so I’m hoping to understand them a bit better. There seems to be a strong feeling in the AAM community that being put on a PIP doesn’t mean you should start freaking out. However, another workplace-related site I visit (link in reply) seems to strongly be saying “Freak out! You’re about to be fired!” is the correct response. So, assuming you think you’re doing fine in a job (as opposed to know you’re on thin ice already) and you get put on a PIP, how concerned should you be?

    2. Amber Rose*

      It depends on the office culture, and the boss who put you on it. In some offices or with some managers, PIPs are definitely signals for firing. It’s hard to judge level of concern without knowing about the company.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This. I’ve been on two, both completed. The first one ended with a layoff much later that had nothing to do with my performance, and the manager really did want me to complete it successfully and stay. The second ended in my being fired for not working up to standards, which I suspect were never going to be reachable even if I had been Rebecca of Sunnybrook Frigging Farm. So it really does depend.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      There seems to be a strong feeling in the AAM community that being put on a PIP doesn’t mean you should start freaking out.

      I think that’s a misinterpretation! Or maybe I haven’t communicated clearly enough on it. You should absolutely assume that a PIP is a sign you might be fired at the end of it, and you should be actively job searching. But you also shouldn’t assume it’s a fait accompli, because people can and do complete PIPs successfully and go on to have a successful tenure in that same organization. The trick is that you can’t necessarily know how yours will end up, so you have to plan for the worst — but it won’t necessarily end up that way.

      1. Jaguar*

        So, from the top two answers in that link:

        While there may be some workplaces in which the PIP is actually used to improve an employees performance, it’s usually management’s way to provide documentation to justify an employee’s termination in a way that pre-emptively invalidates any claim to wrongful termination.

        In THEORY a PIP is supposed to outline your weaknesses, and help you correct course so that you can be a happy and effective employee where you and the company live happily ever after.

        the REALITY is that you are most likely being set up to be fired for cause. There have probably been subtle, and even not so subtle hints that it’s time for you to go. They have likely been trying to push you out the door and now they’re going to throw you out.

        Would you (or anyone else that cares to comment) disagree with those assessments?

        1. NW Mossy*

          I would, since I recently helped an employee through this process and she’s now back in good standing. Lots of tough conversations and even more soul-searching from her, but she did it and I’m amazed at how far she’s come. And it’s better for me, because now I have the high-performing employee I need and don’t need to spend time trying to find and develop that in someone else.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yeah, I disagree with that. I’d say that the reality is that sometimes the PIP is just them getting the paperwork together to fire you. Plenty of others times it’s a sincere effort to see if you can get back on track (while also preparing for the possibility that you might not be able to).

          Any blanket statement about these is wrong.

          More here:

          https://www.askamanager.org/2017/02/if-you-think-a-pip-always-ends-in-firing-you-are-wrong.html

          1. Jaguar*

            Well, they couched their descriptions with qualifiers as well (“usually” and “most likely”). I guess I’m wondering how cynical people should be about them. Is it a sign you are done in your job one out of five times? Four out of five? Obviously, being in the situation and being able to feel which way the winds are blowing plays a huge role in this, but I’m trying to get an understanding to the point that, for example, if a friend tells me they were put on a PIP, should I tell them, “dude, you’re gonna be fired – start looking now!” or should I tell them, “just so you know, sometimes companies do this a legal obligation before a firing – not trying to freak you out, though.”

            Strong cynicism towards PIPs receieved, at least, 118 different people’s endorsements on SE (I don’t have enough rep there to see the actual breakdown of up/down votes – but it’s a lot for that particular SE community).

            1. Jaguar*

              There is also a few comments there to the effect that even if you get through a PIP without losing your job, it will linger with you and depress your opportunities and advancement in the future for having being on it. Anyone figure that’s unfair?

            2. Jaguar*

              A better way to put this question might be:

              In the absense of any evidence prior to being put on a PIP that your job might be in jeopardy, if you’re put on one, how likely are you to get fired no matter what?

              1. Jaguar*

                Actually, let’s change that:

                In the absense of any evidence prior to being put on a PIP that your job might be in jeopardy, if you’re put on one, how likely is it that your employer wants you gone?

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  I just don’t think there’s an answer to that because it varies based on employer. I don’t think anyone has stats on it; we’re all pulling from what we’ve seen personally and heard about it, which doesn’t lend itself to hard numbers. The best you can really do is to say that it’s smart to be prepared for the possibility that you’ll be fired at the end of it, but also know that it’s not necessarily a foregone conclusion.

                  But if you forced me to give a number, and I were basing it solely on what I’ve seen in organizations where I’ve worked and clients who I’ve coached, I’d say that there’s at least a 1 in 4 chance of someone going on to do well in the job post-PIP.

                  But that’s NOT saying “75% of PIPs are just ass-covering paperwork on the way to firing you.” Because plenty of those 75% that didn’t work out were cases where the manager would have been happy to keep the person had they met the metrics in the PIP, and was truly open to that being the outcome.

                  But often when things are bad enough to result in a PIP, it’s because the person truly isn’t the right match for the needs of the job. Sometimes they are, and the PIP helps clarify for them what they need to do to show that. But sometimes it just turns out that it’s a skill mismatch.

                2. Jaguar*

                  Okay. Thanks, Alison!

                  As mentioned, I have no direct or second-hand-through-people-I-know experience with this. It seems to me, though, that if an employer sincerely hoped for an employee to improve their performance, there would be some coaching and optimistic talks about improvement before something with the threat of a layoff behind it comes up. If someone is blindsided by a PIP, surely that must mean they’re being pushed out, right? I mean, I guess the employer could just be an unthinking dope, but it seems like a pretty clear you’re-about-to-be-fired sign in this case.

                3. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  A good manager will definitely give you feedback about an issue before going to a PIP. But loads of managers are terrible with feedback — not giving enough of it, not giving it at all, waiting too long, etc. It’s probably the number one problem I see with managers. So it’s definitely plausible that you could have a manager who sucked at giving feedback who thought she’d been clear enough pre-PIP but wasn’t. Or an employee who did get clear feedback but misunderstood how serious it was.

                4. Jaguar*

                  Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Thanks again. I still can’t quite shake the feeling that something is rotten in the state of Denmark when someone gets blindsided by a PIP, though. I imagine if I found myself in that situation, I would operate from the assumption that axe has already begun to fall.

        3. Damn it, Hardison!*

          I had to put an employee on our version of a PIP but it was truly done with the intention of improving her performance. I had numerous conversation with my manager, dept. head, and HR about how to write the PIP, set realistic goals, coach her, etc. – basically, there was a lot of effort to get her successfully off the PIP. She left for unrelated reasons about 5 months later but in that time had really improved. One of my last acts before she left was to send a formal letter to HR for her personnel file documenting her impressive improvement (she received a copy as well). As context is important – this was in an at-will employment state and in a private academic environment (which in my experience is slow to fire).

        4. AMPG*

          It can easily be both, honestly. I successfully coached someone through a PIP at my last job after they missed an important deadline due to poor planning. The process lasted several months and we did see the changes we needed to see for the employee to keep their job. However, the fact that we had gone through that process meant the employee wouldn’t get another chance to correct a serious mistake in the future – they’d be fired immediately.

          1. Jaguar*

            Meaning that there’s a zero-strikes rule for that employee once completing or moving past the PIP? If so, it seems like the point of it is still implicitly to push the employee out, as the threatening part of the PIP is still basically in effect.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              For the same mistake as what the PIP was for. Yes, I can see a zero strikes rule or more like a zero tolerance rule. If X has been a problem right along and the employee is put on PIP for it, it just makes sense that once the PIP is over the employee had best NOT do X again. I mean why would a company keep a person who fails to do X, when that is a part of their job?

              I am thinking that someone who survives a PIP is going to be very careful about everything. But they are going to make sure the items targeted in the PIP are never again an issue.

        5. Anonymized*

          The REALITY is that they want you gone. I am a recipient of a PIP where the requirement is that I find another job within the company. Everyone at the company can see my last bad performance rating. I was not permitted in any way to refute the last performance rating. Consequently, is it a surprise that I will not fulfill the PIP? After I found work within the company, I was informed I could not do it as I was not authorized although the client wanted me. This is a checkmate, game over.

  42. Lady Julian*

    I’m considering going back to school for an MLIS degree. I know, I know . . . but I got into one of the top (online) programs, and I’m really excited about it! But funding is an issue . . .

    So here’s my question: I’m looking for scholarships and can’t find much that I actually fit into, demographic wise; I don’t match the careers, racial demographics, or family background the scholarships are looking for. What suggestions do you all have about finding good scholarships?

    2. katamia*

      Have you tried looking for variations on “mlis scholarship [group you belong to]”?

      Also, I’m planning to apply to MLIS programs maybe to start in fall 2018, so I’ve been looking too. I’ll reply with a few links I’ve found (I have not necessarily vetted all of these because that concern is still a little ways away, so do your own due diligence before applying to anything to make sure they’re legit).

      1. katamia*

        Not sure if you’ve seen these before, but I’m just dropping them here in case you haven’t:

        http://www.librarylandindex.org/scholarships-grants.html
        http://www.collegescholarships.org/grants/library.htm
        http://inalj.com/?p=24152
        https://ischool.syr.edu/infospace/2014/02/19/library-of-mlis-scholarships/
        http://www.ala.org/educationcareers/scholarships
        http://www.ala.org/educationcareers/careers/librarycareerssite/gettinghelpfinancial
        https://www.scholarships.com/financial-aid/college-scholarships/scholarships-by-major/library-science-scholarships/

    3. dear liza dear liza*

      If it’s a state school, you can ask about getting in-state tuition. That was offered to me by two different LIS schools as financial assistance.

    4. Collie*

      In addition to scholarships, consider trying to find work at a library now if you don’t already. Many employers will assist with funding for education (though some require that you work there a set amount of time before they’ll contribute). I won a state association scholarship and searched for others, but didn’t have any luck beyond the state association.

    5. an almost MLIS grad*

      If you are a woman, PEO is a philanthropic educational organization that offers scholarships, grants, and very low-interest loans to women pursuing higher education (undergrad and grad). You would need to be sponsored by a PEO chapter to apply. There’s info on the projects on the website, as well as how to reach out to indicate interest in applying.

      Website is peointernational DOT org. (or google PEO scholarships)

    6. Zombeyonce*

      Have you tried FastWeb? It’s a scholarship aggregator that finds scholarships you never would have known to even look for on your own. If it works the same way it did back when I was in school, you fill out a profile on yourself and it finds a ton of scholarships that you might be eligible for. They won’t all work for you since it’s looking at so many, but I’ll bet it will find several you could apply for.

  43. (IN)PatientlyWaiting*

    I have been interviewing for a position with a hospital. I have had 3 separate interviews; the first was with the director of the unit, the second was with two of the nurse managers, and the third was with the VP of the contract group that works with the hospital and the unit.

    Every interview was at least an hour in length and I walked out feeling extremely good after each interview. I sent follow up letters after each interview and a follow up letter to the director of the unit after the final interview thanking her once again for meeting with me and giving me the opportunity. I never interviewed with the same person twice.

    The person who was in this position previously is also a good friend of mine and personally recommend me for the position.

    In the directors response to my final follow up she said that she hoped to have all candidates reviewed by Friday (last week) and my references where called the day prior to that, but I have not hear anything since.

    What should my next step be? My friend who recommended me for the position keeps dropping hints, but I have not heard anything from the director of the unit.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Just keep waiting :) It’s only been a week, and sometimes it takes longer than expected to pull a formal offer together, if one is coming. Keep in mind that just because your references were called, it doesn’t mean an offer is coming to you. I would try as hard as you possibly can to take your mind off it over the weekend and if you don’t hear from them by say, Wednesday of next week, drop an email to whoever is your interview contact to see where they are in the process.

      1. BRR*

        Yup wait. I know it’s hard. Things get delayed and as Not a Real Giraffe said, it doesn’t mean an offer is coming. I can guarantee they didn’t forget about you.

  44. writelhd*

    Since there’s a handful of people here in job searching phase or in my case, supporting someone who is, here’s a poll for all:

    In the past when you job searched, how long did it take to land new employment? Were you employed, or unemployed, during the search? What was the general job market like? Did you ultimately get, or accept, a job in line with your expectations, or above/below them somehow?

    1. Blue Anne*

      Getting my first job out of college took about 6-8 weeks. That was an admin job in Scotland and I was unemployed. The job market was tough, and I got the job through networking. The pay was lower than I expected but otherwise it was in line with my expectations.

      Since then I’ve moved into accounting and it’s never taken me more than 3 weeks to find a new job. Some in the UK, some in the US. Job market for finance bods is great.

    2. Manders*

      I’m a terrible source of data, because I had a scattershot approach to job hunting in my last go round and happened to get really lucky.

      – I was sending applications on and off for… maybe six months? Some personal stuff got in the way. I did turn down one job offer I got fairly early in the process because it turned out to be a marketing position for an industry that I personally find distasteful, and they hadn’t made that clear upfront.
      – I was employed full time.
      – I ultimately got offered and accepted a job that was perfectly in line with what I needed. The pay was a little lower than I was hoping for, but I decided to treat it like a paid internship and learn as much as I could. That’s worked out very well for me, and the lower pay was balanced out by lower insurance premiums.

    3. writelhd*

      I tried to reply to myself as part of this thread and ended up posting this as a separate thread down below–SORRY!

      my own story: I’ve only ever job searched after graduation from undergrad. I started searching about a month before I graduated, in December or 2009, (if you count nervous and embarrassing unsolicited phone calls to leaders of the companies I wanted to work for as “job searching,” before I gradually learned better how to job search.) If I don’t count taking small odd jobs and one small continuing research project from undergrad, it took me until October of 2010 to land a full time professional job, so, 11 months, and it’s been an amazing job I love and am still at. Probably had 10 unsuccessful interviews during those 10 months and uncountable more resumes sent out with no call backs. The job market was not awesome (cause 2010) but not terrible (because mid-sized city with a variety of things going on), I was a new grad with an unusual but arguably marketable degree (physics.) It was very important to me at the time to stay in the same city and not move.

    4. Amber Rose*

      My first real job hunt after graduating took five months, and I was trying to move to a new city so it was complicated by that. My first job hunt while employed took about three or four months. My second job hunt right when everything crashed took close to a year, and I got a job by sheer blind luck immediately after I quit the one I had. In terms of expectations, I met those for pay, but I keep getting jobs in industries and companies doing things I never imagined I’d end up doing. Not in a bad way, just a surprising way.

    5. Coffee and Mountains*

      My last new job (within the last year) took about 18 months of serious searching/applying to get. I think it was a factor of lack of jobs for my qualifications and a flooded market where I live and not being willing to move. During that time, I interviewed for six positions and withdrew my candidacy from two other positions because of salary. I didn’t keep track of how many resumes I sent out, but it was probably only one or two a month (if that).

    6. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      I’m in the UK and switched fields to the charity sector last year. My job hunt lasted two months but I ended up getting the first job I applied for (also the one I wanted most – yay).

    7. Bad Candidate*

      I started looking for a new job in 2006, was employed until we moved to a new city in mid 2008. I switched my search from old city to new city in early 2008, and found something in September of that year. It was below my expectations pay wise and responsibility wise but I needed a job since we’d just moved without anything lined up.

      It was a horrible fit and I started looking again almost immediately. I was laid off in March, 2009, and looked for a year, finally taking a Call Center job in April, 2010. That was well below expectations but my unemployment had run out.

      Later that year a staffing firm I had previously applied to contacted me about a temp to perm job that paid $2.25/hour more, had better hours, and I’d have my own desk. I jumped at that, even though I’d start out as a temp. Meanwhile I went back to school to finish my Bachelors. It took a year to get hired on full time but I’ve been here ever since.

      I finished my Bachelors degree in August, 2013 and have been looking for something else since early spring of that year. To say I’m discouraged at what amounts to a more than decade long search for “something better” would be the understatement of the century.

    8. Elizabeth West*

      in 2012, after a layoff:

      1. In the past when you job searched, how long did it take to land new employment?
      One year. Right before the last tier of my UI ran out.

      2. Were you employed, or unemployed, during the search?
      Unemployed.

      3. What was the general job market like? Did you ultimately get, or accept, a job in line with your expectations, or above/below them somehow?
      Mostly crap jobs–I lucked out when I got the one at Exjob. It was way above.

      Now:
      1. I hope not very stinking long. I doubt there will be four tiers of UI now and I expect it to run out soon.
      2. I’m unemployed now.
      3. The exact same entry-level crap jobs with the exact same companies. That’s why I’m looking out of state. Even St. Louis has nothing. But I have a few more skills now that I didn’t have then.

    9. Lemon Zinger*

      I was already employed and contacted for a job I’d applied for several months prior. The hiring process took a little over two months because I was interviewing at a large public university… during the holiday season too!

      I got the job no problem and am very happy with the role. I’ve been here for over a year and am a valued and respected member of my team.

    10. Just Jess*

      I got my current job through a well known and publicized job site. I did not know anyone at the org., but I had a relevant masters and five years of experience. It helped that the org. was expanding this particular department by 30 positions in six months. I had searched online for two hours a week with very little networking for three months while employed. Great fit except for the management, communication, training, and job duties…haha

      At the job before that, a family member routinely forwarded vacancy announcements from a niche industry specific newsletter. The general public typically does not see these vacancies, and I was eventually a great fit for one. I had searched and networked for about a year while employed. Best job I’ve had so far

      My “first” job was obtained solely through networking. I knew someone through a club who knew someone through another club and was hiring. The job was posted publicly on a decently popular website, but I was a perfect fit and had a friend vouching for me. I couldn’t have asked for a better first job and I searched and networked while underemployed for at least a year to get it.

    11. RavensandOwls*

      Let’s see…

      First time was post failed graduate school career (that’s a long story), and involved a move out of state to be with my now spouse. This was 2009, the economy was garbage, but I was at the beginning of my career, so… 2-3 months? The job I took did not pay well but it paid enough for the area and my partner worked too. This was also pre-kid and mortgage.

      Second was when I was staying in town; a few people and myself had been let go from a school due to a gant budget kerfluffle (not my fault – mismanagement on admin’s part). That took 2 months in 2011, and I was still teaching science then, which is a high needs field.

      Third was when I gave up on teaching entirely and quit my position. I got… well, I got really lucky and landed a paid scientific internship on campus (I was considering going back into lab work and this paid a great deal for a summer gig), and during the internship I got the job I have now. That was another 2 months in 2015 with a pretty decent economy, and this job was a step up in responsibility, a big step up in pay, and has set the tone for the rest of my career.

      I’ve been searching since December but really applying starting in January, once we found out about Spouse’s promotion and PCS. I’ve put out a ton of applications and had a few bites back on interviews, but these are all for jobs at or related to my current level.

    12. CrazyEngineerGirl*

      My first job after college took 15 months. This was the height of the recession. The job was definitely a case of underemployment, but, you know, 15 months. I started looking for a new job the day I was passed over for a promotion at job 1. The entire process from that day to the first day at job 2 took 23 days. Job 2 was as an actual, real engineer. The pay was less than market value, but it was in the right field so I counted that as a win.

    13. Tim*

      I just looked up the exact dates from when I started at my current company, in 2015. For context: just out of college, specific industry, entry-level.

      27 April – applied online. This was my first day of the job search. I applied to 3 that day and 9 total over the next month and a half.
      11 May – phone screen. I then scheduled an interview for the 15th which ended up getting rescheduled twice.
      21 May – interview finally happened.
      12 June – received offer.
      09 July – started work.

      I was contacted by three more companies for interviews but only after I’d accepted the offer – turns out my company moves faster than average for the industry, even though it felt like it took forever.

  45. Blue Anne*

    I’ve now been doing bookkeeping at a nice little accounting office in the Midwest for about six months. I have fairly nice co-workers, I’m a little underpaid but have good benefits, we’re halfway through February and I’m still not being expected to work super late on tax returns, I have my own cube with a big desk and a dual-screen computer (BIG improvement over laptops and hotdesking). I have three bosses and really like two of them. The work is fine, I’m learning a lot, and I’m making a good impression. There’s room to move up to staff accountant and even partner, if I want to get my CPA. It’s pretty great.

    But I have never in my life felt so trapped in a job. I get to the end of the week and I don’t know what I did, where the time went. I spend Sunday night dreading going in the next morning. I’ve never understood the stereotype of the depressed gray office drone so well before. Every week seems to take forever but at the same time, blend into one huge blur of depressing wage-slave time that goes by in a blink. It’s only been six months and I feel like I’m wasting my life.

    I don’t know what to do. This is a pretty widespread feeling, right? How do others cope with it?

    1. Amber Rose*

      Yep.
      I started filling my days with after-work activities. I joined a class, and an online roleplaying group, and I schedule a night to catch up on TV shows I like. I mark my days by the non-work things I do. After all, achievements don’t have to be work achievements.

      1. SJ*

        Same here. I started a new job in September, and while I enjoy everyone I work with and I’m paid waaaaayyy better than before, I’m not challenged enough right now (my bosses know this) and I start to dread going to work and the sameness of every day. While my old workplace was toxic and my job was dead-end, it at least had more variety and had me getting away from my desk more. The days felt short and the weeks flew by pretty quickly, but they don’t now.

        I know it won’t always be like this — this place loves internal promotions, and my bosses repeatedly acknowledge all the the good work I do, so I just need to work through it until I get a new position and get busier with bigger things. So I’ve made it my mission to fill my off-work hours with things I enjoy. I started volunteering with a homeless shelter, I’m writing and reading more, I’m going to start exercising and going to a Zumba class (which I was going to start in January…oops), I’m seeing my friends more and going on an international vacation with them at the end of the year, and I’ve bought tickets to a ton of concerts, since I love live music. Having things like this to look forward to really helps me pass the time when work is dull and I don’t want to go.

    2. Manders*

      I cope much better when I’m actively working on a creative hobby in my off time. You don’t have to write the next great American novel or build a house by hand, but it really helps to have a regular activity that involves making something tangible.

      I also need to keep a really close eye on how I’m treating my body when I’m feeling this way. I have a tendency to forget to exercise/take my iron, B, and D supplements/use my happy light in the winter/eat tons of carbs and no protein for a few weeks and then get slammed with that brain foggy feeling.

    3. Bean*

      Couple of thoughts:

      1. As others have said, you need a good hobby/activity away from work.
      2. You are paying your dues in this role. Talk to your boss(es) about growth opportunities and your career path.
      3. Take a long hard look at whether this is the career for you.

  46. RavensandOwls*

    Heaven help me in this job search. I just found out Dream!Startup said no (boooo) after a really good interview, and the other one I had lined up didn’t end up happening because apparently, they’d already offered the job to someone else and forgot to take the position off of the list of open jobs. I only found out because I called the recruiter, having not had a response to my email, and the response was essentially, “Whoops, my bad”.

    On the other hand, I have two more interviews lined up in the coming weeks, and I’ve spoken to a staffer local to where we’ll be moving but I’m really nervous. We’re a month out, the job I have now has gone onto the job boards (and since it’s a mid-level university position, people have been calling me and asking about it), and the cost of living is triple where we are now, so no work is not an option. ><

    1. Lady Julian*

      Oh, this happened to me once! I spent six months as a long-term substitute teacher in Prague, and because my birthday fell during the period I was overseas, I took myself to Rome as a treat. I asked a friend to cover my classes for me, but she wound up coming along instead.

      Thankfully, we ended up getting along together well and I enjoyed her company. :)

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        She did a big update round-up recently, but I think she’s much more careful not to seem to be pressuring letter-writers to provide updates, whereas I am all about the pressure.

        1. EW*

          The pressure and results are much appreciated. Even when the LW doesn’t follow your advice, it is so refreshing to see how real world advice turns out and is implemented.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Woooooow

      I don’t think CA usually asks for updates, but I would love to get one on this situation.

    4. Temperance*

      I always wonder whatever happened with the CA reader with the very mentally ill coworker (Cosette). Yesterday’s letter was just so single white female that I haven’t been able to get myself to read the comments, TBH.

  48. Lady Julian*

    Out of curiosity, how do you all define “being satisfied” in your job? I’ve been thinking lately about job satisfaction, particularly in view of some differences between my friends’ careers (advancing) and my own (stable, though I enjoy the work I do). I’m also interested in how this changes based on job, family status, area of the country/world.

    What counts as “being satisfied” for you? Is it having your dream job? Doing good work? Being paid enough to support your family?

    2. katamia*

      For me, I really need to feel like I’m connected to something larger and that I’m being useful to society in some way. I have yet to have a job where I could actually support myself without help from family, so I can’t use that as a qualification. *sigh* (And that may be why I’ve grabbed on so hard to feeling useful to society–if I’m not making enough money AND I’m doing something that I feel is totally pointless, then why am I even working at all?)

      I also really love having flexibility in my schedule (current work does) and having multiple job tasks where I can switch from one to another when I get bored/frustrated/stuck (current work sometimes does). That goes a long way toward helping me feel satisfied.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I would definitely say pay that allows me to have the semblance of a life and good benefits (holiday, health). I would also say doing work I’m good at and doing it well. This is merely job-related, not career related; everybody knows I don’t actually have a career doing what I’d like to be doing.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      Doing good work is the biggest thing for me. I have to feel good about what I do on a day-to-day basis. I love my current job and am so grateful that I can positively impact people every day.

      I would love to make more money, but that is probably not possible in my current position.

    5. Gadget Hackwrench*

      Being paid enough to live and feeling like my job is actually worthwhile. My husband and I want to start a family soon, so being able to afford kids is definitely also a thing that factors into fulfillment.

      When I was tech supporting pencil pushers and sales guys at widget and teapot makers I’d find myself asking “but does anyone actually NEED these widgets?” I once got into it with a boss who wanted me to update the website to say our widgets could… I don’t know… cut straight lines all by themselves. They couldn’t. They flat out could not do that. I wasn’t willing to put a lie on the website. The marketing department did not like that I called it a lie instead of “spin.”

      Now I’m in the medical sector and I feel way more fulfilled. Keeping this hospital up and running saves lives every day.

    6. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      I made a big career change last year. I was a burned-out freelancer who was in the job I thought I wanted, a job lots of other people would like, using my degree, thinking I should be happy – and feeling constantly paralyed with stress.

      I had two job interviews lined up. Job A was for a charity I had long wanted to work for. It went badly. Job B was for an okay job with a better salary and a shorter commute. I’d had some financial problems and figured having an okay job with a good salary would do just fine. Until Job A phoned and I felt my heart leap out of my chest and, well, I cancelled the interview for Job B because I didn’t really want to go. It was over a week away and I would have had to buy a suit. And do a job that involved boardrooms.

      I am stupidly happy at Job A. It pays enough, although not as much as Job B would have. I am satisfied because I work with nice people who all care about the meaningful work we do and I do things I care about and go home feeling like I have done something that actually matters. For me it’s not about titles or seniority or money once there’s food on the table. It’s about doing something that matters to me and to other people. And learning new stuff. And it’s a plus that people are nice and nobody steals my Post-Its.

    7. Chaordic One*

      Not to sound all greedy, but so many jobs simply do not pay living wages anymore, that a big part of my job satisfaction comes from being paid decently to where I can comfortably pay my living expenses and save for retirement.

      That said, I appreciate being able to do something that really does help people, and that is something that is actually do-able and that does not require psychic abilities.

  49. Berry*

    It’s my last day at this job! Starting the new one on Tuesday.

    I don’t know if it’s a weird culture thing in this office, but a whole bunch of my coworkers (the ones that weren’t taking over my work directly) didn’t know I was leaving today and I’m sure that some won’t know I left until I don’t show up after the weekend…

    1. HYDR*

      Same here. My last day is next week, and when I tell people that they are SO SURPRISED. Um, I gave 4 weeks notice, and this place is like wildfires with gossip.

      Congrats on the new job!

  51. Volunteer Coordinator in NoVA*

    How do people deal with adding special projects into their workload while still managing to get everything else that needs to be done?

    I’m being tasked with basically overhauling our volunteer program at my organization but I can’t seem to find the time to actually start the project as I’m always dealing with emails and other immediate needs to keep the current program we have running. I try and put time aside but it always seems like something else comes up. I don’t want to look like I’m not trying to do it but I’m just feeling overwhelmed by it all. I’m usually a very organized person but this is just throwing me for a loop as I feel like I’m not achieving much of anything. Any tips would be appreciated!

    1. katamia*

      I’m not sure whether this is reasonable for your role/organization, but could you avoid checking email, texts, etc. during the time you schedule for the special project? Also, think about whether you tend to get more interruptions in the afternoon, on Tuesdays, etc., and try to schedule special project time when you tend to get fewer things coming up, if there is such a time.

      I don’t know what your relationship with your boss/coworkers is like, but you could also try talking to them and trying to get them to reduce interruptions for a few hours a week for things that can wait a few hours.

      1. Volunteer Coordinator in NoVA*

        All good thoughts and good things to think about over the long weekend so I can be productive when I come back on Tuesday! Thanks!

    2. LB*

      I do a lot of this in my current role. My regular work takes up most of my time each week, but I have an ever-growing list of special projects that I’m responsible for tackling. I find I’m most successful when I block out time to focus on it, much like I would do for a meeting. I tell my coworkers I’ll be unavailable during that time and make it a priority so that it doesn’t get pushed to the end of the day. In some cases, that means I end up working late to finish my regular work, but I’ve found that emails and other immediate things move a lot faster when there is less time alloted for them.

      1. Volunteer Coordinator in NoVA*

        That’s a good thought as I tend to drag out some emails longer than I need to when I don’t have something else that is urgent. I’m always really productive on Fridays as I like to finish the week feeling like I accomplished the major things I needed to do so I’ll try doing blocking out time during the week to help. Thanks!

    3. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      So the key thing is to differentiate between:

      – Tasks that are urgent and have to be done now, which you need to allow time for
      – Tasks that appear urgent but actually aren’t, which you need to allow contingency time for but shouldn’t always do instantly and reactively
      – Tasks that aren’t urgent but need to be done for more long-term reasons, which you need to actively plan time for

      1. zora*

        ooooh, well put! I might need to talk about this list with my coworkers, because we’re having trouble setting aside time for important long term priorities right now.

        1. Lord of the Ringbinders*

          Glad it was helpful.

          Oh, and look for things you think save time but actually don’t. I used to think I was being so organised putting all my emails in different folders. And stressing about moving them into the right ones. And having to keep moving them about.

          Now it’s either in my inbox with a flag, in my archive, or in one folder of things I need to keep to hand. It’s removed so much stress. (See also, not using collections on my Kindle.)

          1. zora*

            oh, that’s good, too!! I do use folders for my email, but I have very simple, broad categories, so that I can quickly file things, but it’s faster to search if I need to find something.

            But there are probably other things I’m doing that aren’t actually saving time. I’ll think about that.

  52. Venus Supreme*

    AAM Hive! Be proud of me! I finally stood up for myself after being completely torn down and gaslighted at ToxicJob (which has affected me at CurrentJob…)

    Essentially CurrentBoss yelled at me in the heat of pressure/nervousness at an event. Yes, it made me cry (no one saw) and it also triggered my anxiety and I was having panic attacks similar to what I used to have at ToxicJob (again, no one witnessed). When this happened at ToxicJob I just took it and internalized everything because, to be quite honest, no one respected women (or POC) at that organization and no one listened to a thing any of us brought up. So this time around, I asked myself “What would Alison & Co. say?” and confronted CurrentBoss the next work day and said, “There was some confusion at Event and I want to know what we can work on to ensure that this type of confusion won’t happen again…” I explained my side of the story, she explained hers, I told her what would work best for me, she apologized, my anxiety subsided, and communication has been SO much clearer since.

    Moving forward, we’ll see what happens but I’m really effing proud of myself for finally growing my backbone.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Applause, applause.
      Good for you and good for your boss. Sounds like you might have a decent boss here.

  53. RegularAnon*

    We had a situation at the office that seems to have been resolved with an odd solution. My coworker and I are baffled, but I wonder if I’m offbase.

    We have a complex with 3 rented buildings and 1 we own. The owned building has several floors and a men’s and women’s restroom on each floor. The nature of our business is such that our company is <25% women, however, that building has HR, marketing, and some other more female-loaded departments.

    Each men's restrooms only has two stalls and multiple urinals, so the men have been complaining. We've been in the building for 3 years, and recently got a memo that the women's restroom in the basement is now a men's restroom. Only 15 people work in the basement (vs. 150-200 on the other floors), and it's otherwise a big training room, kitchen, and small fitness center. However, the training room is always busy with meetings, so women are regularly down there. Now, if you are a woman in an all-day meeting, you have to use your break to go to another floor to use the facilities. I understand men in a large meeting could be waiting in line, but to me, the solution is to expand the men's room on a few floors, NOT take away a women's restroom. Since we own the building, this is doable. Note that they did meet OSHA with the men's toilet count before.

    Our company's message is that they're trying to be female friendly, since we're historically not a female-friendly industry, and this just seems like a slap in the face. (I don't want the men inconvenienced either, build enough toilets for everyone!)

    1. RegularAnon*

      (also forgot to mention , of the 14 people who do work in the basement, 4 are women. And, to be more clear, the basement isn’t where the congestion problem is, but I guess they figured converting that one to a men’s room would have the least impact.)

    2. Spoonie*

      It seems silly to me to remove the basement restroom for women since you have a large training/meeting room there. At my company, we have clients come in for meetings, so the optics would look worse than they already do (“sorry ladies, you’ll have to go up a floor”). If your company is trying to be female friendly, they’re failing miserably. It seems that, while it may be OSHA compliant, someone didn’t really think things through.

      1. RegularAnon*

        Really good point about the perception for clients. Of course, our clients are in our industry too, so even when there are female clients, they’re used to this crap, but we should strive to be leaders, not the worst among the competitors.

    3. Elizabeth H.*

      It took me a while to understand what the problem was and why this was a solution but I think I get it: more men than women work in the building but on this particular floor of the building (basement) there tends to be a pretty even gender balance on a regular basis. So why didn’t they make this conversion (2 men’s rooms no women’s room) on literally any other floor in the building. Is that the issue? If so I agree that it is a bit weird that they would choose the one floor where there is a more even gender balance to make the bathrooms imbalanced.

    4. Construction Safety*

      Dunno about OSHA (actually I do, but more for construction), but 125-150 guys and one restroom with 2 stalls & a few urinals sounds way light form a building code standpoint. Those BRs have to be on the very high side of nasty at the end of the day.

      1. Natalie*

        One restroom per floor. I don’t know how many floor “several” is but I’m thinking at least three, so there are 4 restrooms at least including the basement.

    5. Artemesia*

      It was never an emergency when women had to line up for the restroom but let a guy have to wait and it is something that has to be solved NOW. Why not direct people to the next floor men’s room?

  55. Ghostwriter*

    I got a new job! I gave notice on Tuesday (oh the irony of breaking up with your employer on Valentine’s Day) and am now slogging through a required 4-week notice period. I am going from my first full time job to my second, so I have a few questions for the loyal AAM readership:
    -I’m looking at a 75-mile drive + 20 min. train commute until I can move to my new city. Any survival tips?
    -exit interview: refuse, smile and lie through my teeth, or be honest about some horrid things that have gone down?
    -I’m going from a jeans and sneakers workplace to a creative/biz casual place in a large downtown. Any tips for building a work wardrobe quickly and cheaply?

    1. Venus Supreme*

      Ugh. The only thing I can tell you about the long commute is pick out some podcasts/playlists you want to listen to and always make sure you have headphones for the train. I used to do a 20min drive, 40min train, and 30min walk to work. If I didn’t have music or headphones I always felt like the outside noises were invading my personal bubble. The 20min train ride doesn’t sound that bad, but I figured I’d give you my $0.02!

      1. Venus Supreme*

        Also for the wardrobe. Assuming you are female-identified, the best way to snazz up an outfit is with a blazer and cute costume jewelry. Always make sure the clothes fit well. I’m not a big fan of skirts and dresses (unless it’s summer and I don’t have to wear tights) so my go-to is typically nice boots (ankle or tall length), darkwash jeans, well-fitted top, and chunky jewelry.

        1. Ghostwriter*

          Thanks! I should add the commute is only going to be 2-7 weeks.

          And yes, I’m female. I have decent sewing skills, so I can do my own tailoring. Tips for favorite stores or websites, anyone?

          1. HYDR*

            Are you close by to any factory stores? They have saved my butt a lot of times!

            J. Crew Factory, hit it up when it’s 50% off (I think the promo is going on now). They have some great basics (blazers, work pants, even shoes) that you can mix/match. I scored a beautiful necklace for like $15, and I receive so many compliments on it. Same with Banana Republic Factory and Brooks Brother Factory. Old Navy has surprisingly quality and selection for more trendy stuff. Of course, wait for online sales as well! ThreadUp is hit/miss. I also have luck with those swap sites on FB, where you can get some really great stuff for next to nothing.

            Once you have those solid pieces, you can certainly swap in/out seasonal shells, tops, etc. Invest in good stuff and it will last a long time!

              1. Kj*

                Thirded. If you know what size you are in certain brands, it is really easy to pick out a bunch of cute stuff that fits.

          3. Meg*

            Ann Taylor LOFT for clothes! Almost my entire work wardrobe is from there, honestly. They have sales going almost all the time, and the quality of clothes is pretty decent for the price.

          4. NaoNao*

            Fashion!!! My favorite question!

            If you like dresses, they can really make an outfit look intentional and polished–they’re a complete outfit in one!
            Solid color shoes with “heft”–ie, oxfords, booties, pointed toe flats, chunky strappy sandals (ie, not ballet flats, toms, skimmers, etc)
            Statement or “serious” jewelry (like, heavy, substantial pieces, not small, delicate, or whimsical stuff)
            Belts! It’s surprising how much polish a simple belt adds!
            Fitted rather than loose/baggy/flowing
            Woven rather than knit, especially on lower half

            Outfit go-to’s:

            Sheath dress, soft blazer (like a jersey material blazer), statement earrings, chunky booties
            Knee length a line skirt, button down or knit top, blazer, necklace
            Dark rinse skinny jeans, oxfords or other flats, button down, necklace
            Midi skirt, soft button down blouse or slouchy sweater, booties, “arm party” (advanced deployment)

            Okay, stores!

            Ann Taylor LOFT
            Gap
            Goodwill/Salvation Army/Thrift
            Consignment in the “nice” part of town
            J Crew (sales rack)
            Macy’s
            Nordstrom Rack

        2. Karen D*

          I am actually on the flip side of this: I love dresses, especially ones that are very simple and classic in shape which makes them easy to dress up with a scarf, blazer, cardigan, etc. Most of my dresses are knit (I really like ponte knit, it’s heavy and low-stretch so it looks professional), and so comfortable they might as well be nightgowns. The only deal-killer there would be if you are expected to wear hosiery with dresses – here, nobody wears hosiery unless they’re wearing tights as a fashion thing or to keep warm. Pantyhose are not a thing.

          However, I would only get a few pieces now, and take a good look at what other women are wearing before making any firmer wardrobe commitment. The problem with a descriptor like “creative/biz casual” is that it is widely interpreted. I would assume no jeans, though, unless you see that jeans are explicitly allowed and people are wearing them.

          1. Ghostwriter*

            Thanks! I actually went to college in New City and interned for New Job’s competitor, so I think I’ve got a decent idea of what’s expected. It’s funny you mention pantyhose. I’m in my 20s and actually don’t mind them. A major employer in my area abolished mandatory pantyhose from their dress code a few years ago, and every single news outlet picked up the story. I found it hilarious.

    2. printrovert*

      Cracker jacks, that is a LONG commute!
      1) Audiobooks & podcasts
      If you have a library card, check out the library’s selection. It may also have digital content resources that allow you to borrow e-audios that you can put on a smartphone or mp3

      Podcasts will depend on your tastes. Earbud.fm is a good way to get started

      2) I am fortunate enough to live in an area where Goodwill actually has a great selection of relaxed attire and work wear. I recommend checking out what kind of selection your local one has or seeing what is available at an area consignment shop. Off-price department stores like TJ Maxx, Marshalls, & Ross may also help.

      1. Ghostwriter*

        Thank you! Fortunately the commute is temporary. Most of it is rural, and I can’t decide if that’s a pro or con. Those are all great suggestions.

    3. Volunteer Coordinator in NoVA*

      Congrats on the new job! I have a long commute as well and I really try to use the time to decompress from the day so by the time I get home, I’m no longer stressing about that day and the things that happened. I tend to overthink everything so I put a cap on how long I can do that for and then by the time I get home, I often feel better. I listen to a lot of podcasts and audio books which makes the time go more quickly. I also use the time to catch up with my mom or other people on the phone but I would obviously only do that if it’s safe (I have bluetooth in my car).

      As for work wardrobe, I’d check out somewhere like nordstrom rack/marshalls or outlets (if you have them) as they are great places to get basics that you can rotate. If you can get some basic pieces that you can mix and match than you don’t need a ton of new things and you can get a better sense of what other people wear once you start so you can better tailor it to that workplace.

    4. Parenthetically*

      ThredUp is a good place to look for business clothes! Ladyclothes are pretty simple, IMO: I have a small rotation of pants, skirts, and dresses that I mix and match with solid-colored tops, comfy cardigans, bright tights, and flats. The majority of it is easily interchangeable with my casual wardrobe.

  56. Need a new job*

    I have an interview next week. I’m super excited, but I’ve only been at my current job for a year and I’m a little nervous on how to address that without sounding like I’m tearing apart my current employer. My previous job was 8 years so this is just one short job and not a pattern.

    I really thought I did my due diligence here but it’s just not a great fit. The pace is slow, the work unchallenging, and the much talked about room for advancement during my interview is seemingly non-existant.

    In addition to not a great fit, there has been a wage freeze in place for at least two years. I really feel like they pulled a bait-and-switch.

    Any advice for a script so I don’t say anything horribly negative when asked why I’m looking to leave?

    1. Just Jess*

      Talk about the projects you’ve finished at your current job (meaning you are done!) and the projects you’d like to do with your potential new employer.

      For the specific question “Why are you looking to leave ABC Inc.” you can try redirecting to why you could not pass up the chance to work with new employer and really show enthusiasm for the projects you’d like to do for them. There’s a lot of online advice on this topic. This is my preferred starting spot.

      Another question you might have to address is “What’s your least favorite part of your current job?” Respond with something that’s an area for improvement and then turn it back to how you like that potential new employer doesn’t have/won’t have that problem, therefore this attracted you and is a great fit.

  57. GiantPanda*

    How can I deal with customers after reaching the BEC stage?
    This is a major customer (something like 20% of our total business), and getting out of dealing with them is not an option in my job. But I can feel my blood pressure and adrenaline level rise whenever they show up in my inbox.

    Lots and lots of completely unreasonable demands. No, more polishing won’t help with keeping the tea hot. A tealight or a tea cosy would. But our suggestions are completely ignored, they want lots and lots more polish. And if the tea does get cold then their next request will be to remove the polish again. We are already swamped, have lots of more urgent and more useful things to do, and have been ordered to reduce overtime.

    The boss is on our side. So is grandboss. Unfortunately, the C-level regards this customer as VIP. Which means, in the end we fulfill their every wish, and they get goodies with apologies for our unreasonableness. (Oh, and our
    bonuses depend on the company bottom line. Which is not helped by working without billing.)

    OK… venting helps. Do you have other suggestions on how to keep my job and my sanity?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Ooh, I was in a very similar situation last year. The customer was unreasonable. (They have the worst, and most amusing, glassdoor reviews I have ever seen, and were being sued by a construction contractor for not paying, so it wasn’t just us.) My managers knew the deal, but when our customer wanted the ear of the division president and he got it. Honestly, for me it resolved by getting to the end of our contracted work with them at the end of the year, but I’m still mad about how it was handled internally. Not getting support has colored my view of things here. I wrote on here in detail about the situation last summer, and the advice was uniformly to find a new job.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Keep track of your time and resources this person is sucking up. The dollar value of that should be less than the profit on their business transaction.

      If you can show the company that they are paying $100K a month for a customer that gives them $15K of business per month (or similar ridiculous scenario) you MIGHT get heard.

      Here’s what to do: Put a dollar value on as much as you can for a week or two. Show your boss, “We are spending X hours and $Y materials on Attention Seeking Customer. How does the correlate with the revenues gained from having said customer.” Bonus points if you can show how little other customers are costing the company.

      Ex.
      I had a customer come in at one retail place I worked. I put SEVEN hours into a sale for her. The sale was $350. The next day her husband returned everything she bought. $350 in 7 hours.

      I had another customer on a different day. I worked with this customer for two hours. I had a $2000 sale. They kept everything they bought. $2k in 2 hours.

      My bosses were good peeps. When the first customer returned to the store, she was told to take her biz elsewhere. My boss said, “I cannot afford to allow my help to spend so much time with you. You can look around. You can pay for purchases at the register. You may NOT talk with my help.”

      Years later the woman hunted me down. She explained that she was lonely. I believed this but I told her “I have to go back to work.” She asked if she could follow me around and talk while I worked. I said no. It was all very sad actually.

  58. Gaia*

    I manage a husband and wife (they work in very different roles). The husband has been on my team for nearly 3 years and his wife was brought on as a temp as she has some unique experience that we needed and that is incredibly difficult to find in this area. Ultimately we’ve decided not to extend her contract and I informed her of this last week giving her 4 weeks of notice. It was always understood that this was a temporary project and ultimately it ended up being more entry level than it made sense for us (due to a number of reasons primarily out of the control of my department).

    My question is this – I’ve always treated them as if they were not spouses but just two employees when it is around their positions. So when I informed her of the end date of her contract, I didn’t specifically mention it to him. Is that weird? Should I discuss it directly with him? Or does that get into weird territory?

    1. writelhd*

      If there’d be no reason to do that if they were two employees who weren’t married, then I wouldn’t. They talk to each other about it, most certainly.

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      You did the right thing (or rather, your non-action was the right choice). And further, although it doesn’t sound like boundaries have been an issue to date, if the husband comes to you to discuss his wife’s role/termination, you would also want to deflect the same as you would if they were two unrelated coworkers.

      1. Gaia*

        Whew. I am so glad. I had a brief moment of “is this weird that I am not talking about it” but then I realized I’d have been livid if my boss talked my my spouse about my employment status regardless of if we worked together or not. So it felt right to not do so (other than the general announcement to the team so everyone knows what is up).

  59. Temporarily Anon*

    Any UX Researchers in da house?

    I earned a Ph.D in an experimental social science, with the original intent of working in academia for the rest of my life. However, since graduating 2 1/2 years ago, I’ve been working in an applied scientist-practitioner role and find that this type of work suits me much better. After some soul-searching (and taking several coding/tech classes on my own time and reading numerous books on SEO, a/b testing, etc., as a hobby), I’ve realized that UX Research (as in true research, not design, at this point in time) may be a great fit for me and my interests.

    So, my questions are:

    1) I’m assuming the PhD is going to hurt me (because of how blatantly academic I’m going to come across). I know I need to gain “real experience” for people to take me seriously in interviews (and to not believe that I’m just waiting to get a teaching job), but apart from that is there anything *else* I can do to disabuse hiring managers of this notion that I won’t be committed (or good at) UX Research jobs?
    2) Any general job-searching tips, including places to aim for (or avoid) when trying to land that first full-time job?

    Thanks!

    1. HYDR*

      I don’t have much to add, except that my brother works for a great company doing UX Research (in a major city in the Midwest). He makes big bucks, and they just won a J.D. Power and Associates award for their product (not sure if that truly means anything or not, it’s pretty cool!). He has a bachelor’s and is going for his Global MBA. It’s obviously a great field and the perks of being a family member is that I get to use the product and provide feedback ;)

      1. Temporarily Anon*

        Well! This fills me with both even more excitement to join the field and envy over your free perks, lol. :)

    2. AnonAcademic*

      I don’t think the PhD will be a hindrance if you’ve worked in a non-academic role for 2.5 years. At least three postdocs I’ve worked with have gone into industry research roles, one in UX at a major tech company, and none had prior non-academic experience. I think it’s more a matter of convincing them this isn’t a backup plan you’re settling for, but that you actually prefer a non-academic environment. Just my .02 :)

      1. Temporarily Anon*

        That’s a relief. The org I’ve been doing applied research for is part of a wealthy and well-known university system but is not a faculty or teaching role in any capacity, so I think the thought of them seeing the org name is what gives me the most anxiety. But you’re right: 2.5 years out (coupled with my techy extracurriculars) should hopefully help.

    3. Just Jess*

      General job search tips: network, network, network. We all know there’s a ton of advice on networking. Not all of it is good, but the number one rule of “dig your well before you are thirsty” is well known. Find ways to give value and not to just take from people who seem like they can immediately give you what you want. A lot of people feel sketchy about consciously networking, but that actually makes no sense. It’s only OK to network into a job if you don’t know you are networking into a job?

      1. Temporarily Anon*

        Ha! I’ve been in that position before where someone has literally given me the side-eye to my face as I tried to exchange info with them (though that happened a while back, when I was still committed to academia!). I don’t know why people feel weird about networking.

        But as to your point, you’re right. I know approximately ZERO people in the UX research field, in part because it wasn’t until very recently that I learned that there was an actual name and established practices for what I wanted to do! (I knew, for example, that a/b testing sounded fun…but couldn’t figure out why I couldn’t find any “a/b tester” jobs–or equivalently clueless job titles–in my job search query results, haha.) I’d like to attend a conference (or multiple!) and/or find a formal mentoring opportunity soon. But, for the moment, I’m still beefing up my knowledge so that I don’t sound like a *complete* noob when I finally meet another UX person. :)

    4. David*

      UX Researcher here. I’ve been in the position for 2 years I came out of academia (Cognitive Psychology specializing in visual perception). Most of my colleagues have come out of academia too; there are a lot of PhDs, ranging from Computer Science to Anthropology. A researcher job is going to require at least a Master’s, so a PhD is definitely not going to hurt you.

      As far as job searching tips, most of the jobs are in the tech industry, so you’re looking primarily at the West Coast (Silicon Valley, SF, Seattle) or tech hubs on the East Coast (NYC, DC, Boston, NC research triangle). Try search terms like User Experience Researcher, UX Researcher, User Researcher, Design Researcher, User Tester. CHI (May), UXPA (June) and HCI (July) are the big conferences. See if your locale has a UX or Design meetup group – they usually put on some good events and will be the ones to know who’s hiring. In my experience UX research is pretty closely tied with design, so in addition to UX research techniques, start reading up on general design principles and techniques like Design Thinking and wireframing/prototyping tools (e.g. InVision, Axure). Even if you’re not doing the main design work yourself, you’re going to be involved in the process so it will help to have an informed opinion. While UX research is analytical, if you’re really more interested in the numbers side of things than the design or interaction side, consider looking into data analytics.

      I’ve included my website (link in the user name). I haven’t updated since my job search, so it has the resume I used to get hired two years ago. My contact info is there as well, feel free to reach out if you have any questions or just want to learn more.

  60. printrovert*

    It’s been a busy week!

    – Interviewed for an opening with my organization (a few steps up the ladder from my current one)
    – Managed to sidestep potential micromanagement of a team activity (which no one wants)
    – Received awesome praise from my supervisor (who also recommended me for position I interviewed for)
    – Enjoying a long weekend!

  61. Not Today Satan*

    I am transitioning from direct social services to program management at a nonprofit. Or rather, I have transitioned, but my organization keeps dragging me back. The direct service manager constantly overbooks appointments and relies on me to take those clients. I’ve already been clear that I hate doing that and that I’ll leave if it continues. It sucks because I do like my new role (at least, as it’s supposed to be) and my direct manager is pretty good, but I’m still looking for a new job. There is nothing more stressful to me than arriving to work with my coffee and bagel, expecting to be able to ease into the day, and I am told that for XYZ reasons there’s an “emergency” and I need to take a client.

  62. Gene*

    We did the interview panel to replace the coworker who died 2 years ago (the anniversary of that is next week) yesterday. Of the 25 applicants, 4 passed the supplemental questionnaire, and 3 accepted the invite to be interviewed. And this time, all showed up! All three were good candidates and passed the panel, so the Civil Service Commission will likely approve them for the list next week. So we will have 4 candidates to choose from for hiuring interviews.

    We might come back to full strength soon!

  63. writelhd*

    I’ll start us off. I’ve only ever job searched after graduation from undergrad. I started searching about a month before I graduated, in December or 2009, (if you count nervous and embarrassing unsolicited phone calls to leaders of the companies I wanted to work for as “job searching,” before I gradually learned better how to job search.) If I don’t count taking small odd jobs and one small continuing research project from undergrad, it took me until October of 2010 to land a full time professional job, so, 11 months, and it’s been an amazing job I love and am still at. Probably had 10 unsuccessful interviews during those 10 months and uncountable more resumes sent out with no call backs. The job market was not awesome (cause 2010) but not terrible (because mid-sized city with a variety of things going on), I was a new grad with an unusual but arguably marketable degree (physics.) It was very important to me at the time to stay in the same city and not move.

    1. writelhd*

      Sorry, I meant that as a reply to my own post earlier up about job search times. Argh! I will put it there and y’all can ignore this.

  64. retired references*

    Is it okay to ask someone who has retired to be a job reference? Or should someone find a new reference? I only have two references if I take out the retired manager, and the only other person I can think of is a coworker I haven’t worked with in a few years. I can’t use anyone at my current job for fear of them telling management I’m looking, so I’m at a loss.

    2. vanBOOM*

      It’s perfectly fine to ask a retired person to serve as a reference, as long as they have supervised/observed your work in a professional capacity.

      I’d just look for some reassurance that they’re going to be reliable (in terms of responding to reference requests in a timely fashion), as he or she will likely be enjoying the much different pace of their life post-retirement. Alternatively, some people initially respond negatively to retirement, so asking for their help with something might just make their day! :)

  65. Lucina*

    Hello, I’m so glad the open thread is up!
    So I have been working with the same company for 8 years, and I moved to my current role about 2 years ago. For the whole 8 years I have been in Teapot Chocolate Research, and I am a bit fed up with it. There are 2 internal positions in Teapot Hazelnut Inclusions and I have expressed interest in the first one that was posted on our intranet. It is one level more junior level than what I do now, but I am not an Hazelnut expert and not at all a confident person, so I think it could fit in very easily. The other one wasn’t up when I contacted the hiring manager, is at my same level of seniority, and requires that I stretch a bit out of my comfort zone. I think it would actually be a better thing for me, but I am not sure I could make a success of it. Then comes the money: both positions require an international move (I’m in Europe) to an area with a higher COL and a challenging rent situation (I have CATS and they’re IMPORTANT). Obviously I’d rather not lose seniority and get more money than less… The hiring manager has my CV, but hasn’t contacted me yet, so it is possible he doesn’t think my experience in Chocolate can translate to Hazelnuts at all. Also, I like my life in this beautiful place, so the more I think about it, the more I convince myself that I either leave for something good, or I stay where I am. Now, I am not sure what the question is… Do you have any comments, or suggestions, or have you been in a similar position before? I’d really appreciate an outside point of view. Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      I don’t know about anything Europe-relevant, but unless you’re dying to move into Hazelnut Inclusions and there are growth possibilities there I wouldn’t take a pay and position cut just for a change, especially if it meant moving to a higher cost of living area.

      I don’t think you always have to take a stretch position, either, but I think perfect lateral moves that don’t require any adaptation are pretty tough to find, and if change is important to you right now adaptation is going to be part of that picture. Otherwise you’re risking a lifetime of having less every time you move jobs, and cats gotta eat.

      1. Lucina*

        Thank you fposte, you’re perfectly right!Typing out my question helped a lot with understanding how I feel about this.

  66. I Want Out*

    So here’s my situation.

    My team is very overworked. We’ve had multiple conversations with management warning them that we need more people or we won’t be able to meet deadlines. Management’s response is “just work harder and come in on the weekends” when we’re already putting in 10-11 hours every day. And to make things worse, one of our best performers has been put on a “we need justificarion paperwork for firing you” type PIP, mostly because someone we don’t even work with but has connections personally dislikes him, and he’ll probably be let go at the end of the month.

    We’re all job searching and not hiding it. I have several promising looking opportunities and I hope to get an offer soon. But here’s the problem: the company wants a month’s notice when you leave. Given their attitude of “we don’t care if you’re in from 8 to 7, you need to work harder,” I feel like they’re asking for way more respect than they’re giving us. How justified would I be for leaving with less notice?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Completely – in many senses, you’ve already given them the notice they really need: They need more people. Their refusal to search for and hire more people is not your problem, and therefore it’s really not your problem if the standard 2 weeks is not enough time for them to find someone to replace you on an already shorthanded team.

      However, if it’s in your company handbook, there may be penalties assigned with leaving with less than a month’s notice, so you should check that (i.e. whether they pay out unused PTO or not, etc.). And if it would really leave your co-workers in a lurch, and it would be possible for you, you might consider putting in the month as a gift to them. But not to the company, and definitely not if it’s a problem for whatever new job you snag.

      1. I Want Out*

        I’m pretty sure there isn’t any penalty associated with leaving early, actually. I don’t think this’d stop them from playing games and trying to deny unused PTO payouts etc. and I’ll assume I’m forfeiting that stuff by leaving. Worth mentioning that most people who have left recently have given 1 or 2 weeks notice (I work in IT so time to train a new hire is significant). The only reason I would give any notice is out of respect for the rest of my team, who are absolutely fantastic people.

        In fact, if they do fire the one guy, we will NOT be able to deliver by our contractual deadlines no matter how many extra hours we work. We’ve spoken with management about this, but they’re dead set on labeling him as “a problem” and pushing him out.

    3. LQ*

      Completely. I would only give them 2 weeks. they aren’t doing anything to earn more than that. Unless it is super standard in your industry to give much more than that I wouldn’t at all. Give them the standard 2 weeks.

      Also UGH! Good luck!

  67. Other good work-advice blogs?*

    I love AAM, but sometimes I want more! Any recommendations for other work-related advice blogs? I’m more interested in advice for one’s current job, rather than for job-searching.

    2. Possible blogger seeking ideas*

      I am thinking of starting a career blog that focuses on advice about becoming even more successful in your current role. My education and experience are in talent management and learning and development. What kind of articles or stories or advice would you be interested in learning more about?

    3. Chaordic One*

      AAM is my favorite website.

      Two other ones that I read frequently are those by Liz Ryan at Forbes magazine (although I don’t buy the pain letter stuff at all).

      I also like Lucy Kellaway at the “Financial Times” although that has become a subscription website and you can’t look at her advice columns anymore without paying. Her usually work-related weekly podcasts are available on the FT website and written copies of the podcasts can be found on the “Irish Times” website and I find them informative, although they are often about business in general.

      I frequently find work-related stories on “The Cheat Sheet,” “Inc Magazine” (which frequently carries Allison’s stories), and the Forbes magazine website in general.

      1. The Unkind Raven*

        The Workologist isn’t as prolific as AAM, but he’s pretty good; he’s at the New York Times.

    4. Tabby Baltimore*

      It only comes out every other week, but the @Work Advice column, written by Karla Miller, in the Washington Post newspaper, often handles topics in-depth, and sometimes conveys advice from local-area employment attorneys for when the issue is beyond her experience. The commentariat on that site is lively but respectful, even when they disagree with the columnist.

  68. Anonymous Rejectee*

    I was shortlisted for a position, but was ultimately rejected. Instead of calling (as is standard in my field), the hiring manager sent out three– three!– form rejection e-mails over the course of an hour, all of which were slight variants of one other. One of them had a typo. Keep it classy, Anonymous Organization! I was going to miss you, but now I’m not.

    2. Ama*

      Eek. That sounds like someone who doesn’t know how their system works.

      When a former employer of mine was first testing a text message emergency alert system, the very first time they tried to test it they sent out five messages, one after the other, each one with a slightly different wording but no new information. (This was back when many people still had pay-per-text plans or very limited numbers of texts per month, also.) Later, we got an all-staff email apologizing for the multiple messages — apparently the system was setup to publish to the employer’s webpage as well as send texts and the person typing the message didn’t realize correcting the typos on the webpage was sending a new message each time.

      1. Anonymous Rejectee*

        Yeah, that explains two of the e-mails, which came through the application system…but not the third, which was an e-mail directly from the hiring manager. Huh.

        That, and various other oversights/weirndesses in the way they handled the hiring process (like how they put me up in a hotel that had no food options in walking distance and no food I could eat in delivery range) makes me not sad to not have been chosen for the job.

  69. Andrea*

    If you had an interview where the interviewer didn’t write anything down for the entire hour of your discussion, would you take that as a bad sign? Did they already make up their mind at the start of the meeting and carried out the rest of it for the sake of it? Was it that you just didn’t say anything remotely of interest?

    (Yes I know one should move on after the interview and stop dwelling on any ‘signals’, but not writing anything down seemed like a pretty blatant one…)

    2. katamia*

      No. Most of my interviewers haven’t written things down, and if I were interviewing someone, I probably wouldn’t write anything down either.

    3. The Fiftieth Girl*

      I had a period of job hunting a while back and went to five interviews. None of the interviewers ever wrote down anything. I managed to get an offer from three of them, and I later found out that the interviewers were all director level superiors. People at that level tend not to be in the habit of taking notes.
      I’d say don’t read too much into that. If they did write down anything, it would have been after you left, where the bosses told the HR people how they felt and they had to type that out.

    4. mreasy*

      Some people take notes (like me!) when interviewing, while some don’t (like the people who hired me, after 3 note-less interviews!): read nothing into it.

    5. CrazyEngineerGirl*

      I never write anything down either. But I do always bring paper and a pen along with their resume. And then I just… don’t write anything down. I’ve never really thought about it or the impression that might give.

  70. caryatis*

    Coworker: “Oh, you shouldn’t walk home alone, it’s so dangerous!”

    I live a mile from work in a rich suburb. Yes, there is some risk I’ll get murdered, but weigh that against the real costs of car commuting: accidents, stress, waste of money, and all the health risks of obesity and a sedentary lifestyle–it’s pretty clear which is the best choice. But, I’m biting my tongue.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      We are so bad at assessing risk. And in particular, we show a propensity for taking HUGE risks when we are the point of failure rather than taking minuscule risks where the point of failure is external, because a feeling of control is more important than actual risk.

      1. fposte*

        Risk perception *fascinates* me. Especially when you see that knowing how bad we are at it doesn’t on its own change that–look at Cass Sunstein, who admittedly fell into exactly the same economic behavior risks he writes about.

          2. AnotherAlison*

            I just went and read this. Very interesting read.

            When my oldest was in elementary school, he would get out of school at 3:30 and walk home (5 minute walk, tons of kids en route). My husband would be home from work by 4:30 at the latest (often earlier), and it just didn’t make sense for us to spend $100/wk on Y-care for <45 minutes of care a few days a week. People thought that was weird, but him sitting at the counter watching cartoons and eating a snack never seemed too risky to me.

            Now, occasionally people ask me what we do with our 12 year old on school breaks. Ummm, he's in 7th grade. He stays home. He can call 911. I'm somewhat shocked by people who think a 12 year old needs constant supervision.

            I don't know how I got to be as lax as I am, but I think it is the reaction to my mother, who thinks a murderer is lurking in the bushes waiting to harm her as soon as she goes to check the mail.

            1. Parenthetically*

              We did this too! 10 was our cutoff for spending the day alone. And we weren’t ever really “alone” because there were 10 kids in four houses in my street. We just went from backyard to backyard. Mostly mom and dad didn’t want us home a lot by ourselves because we fought too much and watched too much TV, but the idea that it was dangerous for a 12 and 10 year old to be home by themselves wasn’t even a factor in the equation.

            2. Jules*

              I was cooking on the stove at 9 years old without supervision. My friends still don’t trust their 12 years old to work a stove. Stayed home alone about at that age too. But my kids will be going to daycare so no one calls the CPS on us. I find that it’s fascinating how protective we are as a society. Instead of teaching our children, we shelter them.

              1. animaniactoo*

                You do not want to hear my rant on the issues with the concept of “Stranger Danger” and how it is taught to our children and hamstrings the hell out of them, teaching them that A) the world is a big dangerous place you should be afraid of and B) authority figures are trustworthy, and C) if you can’t find an authority figure you are SOL.

                You can probably extrapolate it from there…

                N.B.: I am not saying that all strangers are wonderful beneficial people, but rather that the goal is to teach your children *how* to talk to strangers, rather than *not* to talk to strangers.

                1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

                  I frequently traveled with my mom, internationally, from toddlerhood. She took those trips because she was a teacher, which also meant managing 15-20 students through several changeovers while keeping track of a kid.

                  From the time I was 8 and my brother 6, we were walking to school and my mom’s school on weekdays. And to the library. And around the tiny, safe town where we vacationed.

                  So my mom never did stranger danger, but rather to stay with the group/family/my brother, and if we got lost, look for first, someone we knew (my family had many friends in TinyVacationTown and just overall), then a cop or worker in the place we were lost, and if nothing else, a parent with a kid or two.

                2. Annie Mouse*

                  I like the concept of ‘tricky people’ instead of stranger danger. It teaches children that for instance, an adult who is safe wouldn’t be asking a child for help (in most cases). Or that anything where they are told to keep it a secret or not to tell mum about, is a tricky person.

          3. Damn it, Hardison!*

            I was babysitting other kids (including infants) by the time I was 11. In retrospect I don’t think it was appropriate but it was pretty normal among my friends.

      2. Construction Safety*

        Go to the Popular Science site, search for “Black Swan”. A very interesting piece on our risk perception.

    2. Risk assessment.*

      I used to hear this kind of thing regarding leaving work alone to walk to my car. I would comment that stranger attacks are extremely rare and that most violence against women is committed by men they know. So, do you live with a man? Husband, brother, son, roommate? Then you are already at greater risk than I am, living alone and walking to my car. Also, if you are afraid to walk a block in your town without a man at your side, how are you different from oppressed women in, say, Saudi Arabia? your burka is in your mind.

  71. Not a Real Giraffe*

    I had my performance review this week. I was given one hour’s notice, and it lasted 7 minutes. It was positive, but I gleaned no information from it, either what my boss sees me doing well or what she thinks I need to work on. I knew from my colleague that our boss is notoriously bad at difficult conversations, but I thought there would be SOME sort of feedback given.

    My only takeaway is that raises here are a joke. My boss flat out told me the salary she deems my experience at (it’s a number I agree with), but gave me a raise that was $900 short of that number. She claimed it was the best she could do, and that she had to push even to be able to give me the raise she gave me. I’m not sure I believe her, but I guess a disappointing raise is better than no raise at all.

  72. Rebecca*

    First week back at my new//old/new job is almost done. I’m glad I went back. I spent most of the week just getting used to everything again, computer set up, links, favorites, all of that, so hopefully I’ll get back into a work routine soon. So glad to have a managed workload now! And all the stress and angst caused by my old manager is gone because she is gone. What a relief!

  73. Procrastinator extraordinaire*

    I am REALLY having trouble motivating myself at work (a desk-based government job). I waste so much time on the Internet, eating snacks, just sorting emails, etc. I’m having trouble taking the step to actually complete any task that is more difficult than replying to an email. Please, give me a kick in the pants, and also your best tips for getting motivated!

    2. INeedANap*

      Honestly, I’ve had success on just making sure I can’t access my most common procrastination tools (I say as I post on AAM).

      You can download an “internet blocker” that will not allow you to visit the sites you waste time on.

      Don’t bring snacks – or if you do, schedule them. “At 10:00 I have five minutes to eat my cheese.”

      Also, I found scheduling the tasks themselves help me get over my “Oh, I have all day to do this, I can browse the internet right now.” If my list says “Complete grant application at 11:00am”, then I’m more likely to stay on task.

  74. Spoonie*

    I posted a Glassdoor review for my CrazyTown job…and they responded. I haven’t read it yet (it’s been ~4 days; yeah, I’m super brave). But they haven’t responded to any past reviews. So…that’s fun. I waited a /significant/ amount of time after I left before posting a review.

    Backstory: CrazyTown likes to inflate employee reviews with incentives of “oh if you post a review and let us know with a screenshot, we’ll give you x”. So popular mainstream review sites and and other industry related sites all have positive reviews that grossly inflate their numbers, meaning you have to dig to find any actual information buried within inflated reviews. My Glassdoor review is the first in the last few months that was negative across the board.

  75. Marche*

    I’m working on an application for a job sent to me by a close friend. It’s with her company but in a different department, though it has the same title she has . It’s an industry I’ve never worked in nor have any real familiarity with – my experience is teapots and this is rice sculptures different. I think I can do it, and given that two friends I graduated with (same degree, same general past experiences) are now doing this, I know I can pick it up. Here’s the problem: they started out as contractors to this company and therefore had a few months of experience in the field when they applied, I’ve got none. So I can’t draw on past experience as directly as I normally can in my cover letter, and although I’m trying to talk about all the qualifications I have, my letter is totally lacking in rice sculptures.

    How should I tackle this? I want this job and I know I can do it, but without prior experience in the field I’m struggling.

    1. Chaordic One*

      In your resume play up your education and whatever skills would transfer from teapots to rice sculpture. Do some research into rice sculptures in general and into this particular company and find out what you can. Also, pump your friend for as much information as she (or he) can provide about the job and the company. Finally, it wouldn’t hurt to talk with your other two friends about their experiences, just to be prepared.

      The fact that your friends started out as contractors does not mean that it is impossible for you to be hired directly. Hope for the best and be prepared. Listed below are some links to past AAM stories that might be helpful to you. Good luck!

      https://www.askamanager.org/2014/05/how-to-get-a-job-when-you-dont-have-experience.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2014/05/how-to-get-a-job-when-you-dont-have-experience.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2007/12/how-to-get-hired-if-youre-under.html

  76. G1987*

    I’ve got a new job that I’m really excited about- it’s a bit of a step up and more responsibility.

    Just after I handed my notice in at my current job (before it was public) a colleague announced she had a new job in the same team. She was at risk of redundancy so not a surprise she is moving on.

    I am happy for her that she found a new job but I was really hoping to reinvent myself at this job – act with more confidence, speak better and I think that will be harder with someone I know there. Does anyone have any advice on not falling back into old habits?

    1. honey honey*

      Ooh, I feel ya. One of the benefits of changing companies is the opportunity to reinvent yourself. I think you should forge ahead and be a better you in whatever ways you want, and not worry about your coworker. She will adjust to the new you quickly. Impressions are not set in stone and people respond to who you are in the present.

  77. The work fairy*

    My super dysfunctional company just went through a “restructuration” and somehow a lot of the issues around the company were wrongfully blamed on my former boss (Operations manager). They decided to delete her department and have reassigned her to a menial role way below her capabilities. The change is going to very negatively affect my daily work. I feel sorry for her and I don’t think this was the right decision. I had a pretty good rapport with her and I want to let her know I am on her side of things and show my support. Would it be ok to email her on her personal email to express this? (I don’t want this exchange to be done on work email, but I don’t want to invade her privacy either)

    1. Undine*

      What I might do is something indirect, like give her a card saying how much you appreciated her as a boss (with specifics), and that you wish her all the best. So not on work email (although you could mail her the card at work, if you no longer run into her), but no intrusion, and also not pitying or saying some version of “sorry your new job sucks.”

    2. Chaordic One*

      Don’t email her. While it is probably not a big deal, I sort of feel paranoid and you never know if your email is being monitored or not. You don’t want to give your supervisors any excuse to be upset with you or more upset with your former supervisor.

      A thoughtfully written card left would probably be appreciated by her. You might leave it on her desk or hand it to her personally, if possible.

    3. tigerStripes*

      The problem with email, even personal email, is that it’s really easy to forward. If you do sent an email, be very careful about what you say.

  78. AnonymouslyIrritated*

    I’ve got to get this off my chest… and here seemed like a good place since part of me believes my irritation is unfounded and I basically just sound ungrateful.

    My boss, the company owner, just announced a company wide raise. A set amount, not a percentage, across the board. Let’s call it $1 per hour. And inside I’m kind of seething for a few reasons. First, I’m annoyed because percentage wise this is a significantly lower raise for me than most of the other employees. For many this equates to an 8-10% increase while for me (salary employee getting a bump of $2080 annually) it is WAY lower. Which in itself wouldn’t be awful except that I haven’t had a raise in a year and this has derailed my hopes.

    I’m in a higher level, technical position and am paid below market rate for my area. My boss knows this and has been working on bringing my salary up during my years here. I got a pretty large raise a year ago, but am still 15-20k under where I should be. I was hoping to get another large raise soon and am pretty sure this $1 bump has made it so that won’t happen for a while. And I feel stuck not being able to bring it up because my boss is famous for “I can and do give raises whenever I want, if you have to ask for a raise you haven’t deserved one” etc. With no formal evaluations and that crazy stance on raises, I kinda of want to scream today.

    1. Gadget Hackwrench*

      if 1$ an hour is 10% of someone’s pay they probably NEED it. 10$ an hour isn’t exactly a living wage, and I’m assuming you’re not in retail, fast food, etc where that sort of low pay is considered normal… (even then I question the wage practices there, but lets not get into that.)

      I might be biased though since I spent 2 years making 11$ an hour back during the recession, which is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay the hell below market price for my skills.

  79. WHYYYYY????*

    I suppose his is more of a rant than a cry for help…

    My company has too many people. It knows that, we know that. They don’t want to lay anyone off, and they have found a pseudo-decent way to mitigate this: they farm us out.

    Basically my company is company A, and while company A pays us, they farm us out to companies A, B, C, in exchange for part of our salary, goodwill, and the understanding gat if they need us, they can get us back.

    It’s not a day to day thing, it’s anywhere between one and five years.

    I am one of those loaners, and it’s mostly great. I get exposure to a different company, I have a great boss and great colleagues. I don’t, however, want to move over for good. I like company A too! Company A is also more financially stable, so I get more job security than I would otherwise.

    The problem is that company A’s HR is terrible. It seems like every month, they come back to company M (my loaner company) with “hey, we might actually need WHY????? right away but we aren’t quite sure so just head’s up”. This has happened like 3 or 4 times.

    While companies B, C, and D are used to this from company A, this is the first time company M has dealt with this. They are getting (justifiably) a bit cranky about the whole thing.

    I can’t say I love it either, but I am also used to this from A’s HR. Short of saying “sorry guys, this is just the way it goes when you have an arrangement like this”, is there anything I can do to stop annoying the heck out of M’s HR and management and keep my own sanity?

    1. Ama*

      Oof, that sounds rough. Would A’s HR be open to hearing that feedback? “Hey guys, the more vague warnings you give about calling me back the more you are annoying M; it would probably be better if you don’t tell them I’m needed back until you are actually sure you need me back.” Someone probably thinks they are being proactive and transparent and not realizing how it actually looks.

      If you think that’s likely to just make things worse (or make them pull you early so they don’t have to worry about it), then maybe that won’t work, but it’s the only thing I can think of.

  80. LegalAnon*

    I’m hourly at a big local law firm. It’s in the temp contract that one cannot work unapproved overtime- and that time is billed to the tenth of an hour.

    Depending on my bus schedule, I may get to work the 6 minutes early, so a few weeks ago when they happened, I accidentally billed 40 hours and 12 minutes. I was actually working- I just got in a tiny bit early two days and worked to my normal time, since the first bug back home doesn’t leave until after my normal end time- and I didn’t want to stand in the cold.

    My time was “adjusted” down to 40. I get that overtime is not approved right now, and it’s 12 minutes, but this feels sketchy to me.

    1. Emi.*

      I thought they have to pay you if you worked–they could (theoretically) fire you for working OT when you weren’t supposed to, but if you worked it they had to pay you. Is that wrong?

      1. really*

        It’s not unusual though not to pay for less than 1/2 of 15 minutes. I have worked hourly with clocking where everything was based on the hour. So 11:53-12:00 you wouldn’t be paid for but you get paid for 15 minutes for 11:52-12:00.

        1. Natalie*

          Rounding is allowed but the rounding scheme has to balance at worst, or at best benefit the employee. You can’t legally round employee time if it always ends up shorting them.

    2. CAA*

      Federal law allows employers to round to the nearest quarter-hour. If your state doesn’t have a rule that overrides the federal law, then rounding down 6 minutes to 0 is probably legal. If you got there 12 minutes early, then they could not round down.

  81. Regular Coffee Drinker*

    Readers who are dealing with heavy stuff in their personal lives, how do you maintain a cordial and professional relationship with colleagues that require extra emotional labor?

    Last summer I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety. It was a very good thing because I was having suicidal ideation and looking back, was starting to move from “thinking” to the very early stages of planning. I’m on meds and regularly meet with a therapist and psychiatrist to evaluate my progress.

    I expected therapy to be mentally and emotionally draining at times. I had expected mental fatigue. I didn’t expect that outside of my husband I have zero patience for any sort of emotionally labor expected of my by others.

    I’m finding that I’m irritable at work. I work very hard on keeping my irritation in check, and stepping away from my desk when I’m heading down Irritability Lane.

    I’m really struggling with one coworker especially. She’s worked in my unit for twenty years. (I’ve been here for four). Through a combination of bad and lax management she’s been allowed to skate by doing the bare minimum required in her job. Her favorite way of shirking responsibilities is to ask “What do you want me to do?” to tasks that have been repeatedly explained. Yesterday she asked “What do you want me to do” in regards to small procedure change that had been explained to her on Wednesday. A change that she made a big deal over, and resulted in a fifteen minute conversation to something that should’ve taken one minute.

    In situations like that, I’m finding it hard, incredibly hard, to maintain a professional demeanor. Yesterday I snipped at her to “Do it like we explained [Wednesday].” I don’t want to be the rude, asshole coworker just because they’re dealing with stuff outside of work. At the same time, I don’t have my former patience where I was willing to explain what needs to happen, or take on the task myself.

    1. Manders*

      I have no advice, but I’ll be following this thread hoping for advice. I’m struggling with exactly the same thing. I haven’t snapped at anyone yet, but some days I come way too close for comfort.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      This is probably bad advice, but I have zero patience for people who don’t pay attention. At OldJob, I had a colleague message me to ask me a question about an upcoming holiday accommodation that (1) was the exact same as the previous year which he was there for, (2) our entire department attended a training about a week prior that he attended, and (3) the trainer followed up with the training by sending an email outlining the accommodation.

      My response was “are you serious?” and I refused to answer any additional questions from him about it. I think your response of “do it like we explained Wednesday” is perfectly reasonable.

    3. Parenthetically*

      First off, solidarity and high fives for getting the help you need. I definitely recognize a wide streak of irritability and short-fusedness in myself when I’m in the worst bits of my depression.

      What works for me (sometimes): Deep breath. Acknowledge the irritation. Move it to the side, just for now. Then speak. In a kind tone: “Yep, sure. Remember you and I went over this Wednesday. The procedure hasn’t changed since then. Why don’t you write down the procedure change so when you need to do it again, you don’t have to interrupt your work?”

      But also, this person sounds legitimately infuriating, so I think it’s ok for you to give yourself permission to be a little cooler and firmer to her than you might be to another coworker.

    4. Birdbrain*

      Oh man, I know what you mean. (My increasing frustration at work was one of the clues that I needed to re-evaluate my medication dosage, actually, since my irritation was not proportionate to the situation.)

      I don’t have a ton of advice… but one thing that helps me if I’m having a bad day is to distract myself. So if I’m fuming at my desk, or if I’m in danger of bursting into tears, or I’m replaying conversations ad infinitum in my head, I will take a minute and do something that will fill my brain with something completely different. I have photos/videos of my pets on my phone and I find that they always make me smile. Listening to a favourite song (on headphones) or a minute or two of an audiobook/podcast are also something I do. Even if it doesn’t fix the issue it can help to stop the downward spiral, you know?

      This probably won’t help “in the moment” when you are confronted with Frustrating Coworker, but I wanted to throw it out there. Good luck and congrats on taking steps in the right direction!

    5. Grits McGee*

      Greatest sympathies, Regular Coffee Drinker. Distance is the only thing that’s worked consistently for me.

      What has been the most helpful is to try to limit the amount of face-to-face interaction I have with draining coworkers. It gives me some mental distance and I don’t have to stress about making sure I keep my emotions from showing. (And then the stress of keeping things clamped down=more likely to have an outburst.) Is there any way that you can arrange your work so that you can justifiably tell obnoxious coworker that she needs to email/message/schedule a time to see you?

      Also, is it feasible for you to offload/redirect some of the responsibility for explaining things to obnoxious coworker? When she asks you, “What do you want me to do?” could you say things like:
      “I don’t know, do what you think is best.”
      “That’s a better question for X.”
      “I don’t know, what did X tell you to do on Wednesday?”
      “Procedure Y is in the SOP, but I don’t remember where off the top of my head. You’ll have to check.”
      “I don’t really have time to answer that, can you xyz…?”

    6. TL -*

      First, I’d talk to your therapist about it! They probably have some better suggestions for you (because they know you better).

      Second, I’d practice saying things in a concise but pleasant manner. “Can you do it just like we talked about on Wednesday?” can be polite but also doesn’t require a large amount of time from you.

      You can also make her adhere to your schedule; if she doesn’t understand or needs something explained, “Okay, I’m busy right now but I’ll be able to go over this with you at 3 pm. The documentation is also online.” If you need to interact with her daily, set aside 15 minutes in the morning to talk about that day and then shift all non-urgent things to an afternoon discussion at your convenience. I do this with a coworker who is lovely but who tries my patience – he’s very repetitive and a 30 sec question always turns into a 5 minute conversation. I’m so much more calm and patient when I ask her to come back when it’s convenient for me – I have time to prep and I’m not thinking about all the things I should be doing; I’m using time I’ve earmarked specifically for her.

  82. GreyjoyGardens*

    I am applying to some temp agencies in order to bring in a little extra do-re-mi when freelance income is thin on the ground. I used to temp, many years ago, but I know things have changed (I temped way before the era of online applications and LinkedIn, for example). Is there any way to make sure the agencies I interview with *only use my references as actual REFERENCES* and not to try to sell them their services? I have heard that many agencies are really, really into using candidate references as sales fodder, and I do not want to exhaust the goodwill of my contacts/references. I would be so very annoyed if someone called me ostensibly to enquire about Jane’s or Fergus’ work and then moved in with a sales pitch.

    1. CAA*

      There’s not much you can do about this. Every agency that calls me for a reference also tries to sell me on their services. People who give references a lot are used to this, and we don’t hold it against our former employees.

  83. LAI*

    I have a coworker who is not very good at his job and makes everyone else’s job harder. We do the same work but have different supervisors. Should I assume the managers know how bad he is, or should I say something? If I should say something, do I talk to my supervisor or his?

    1. Lily in NYC*

      If you decide to say something, definitely talk to your supervisor first. S/he might feel like you overstepped if the other supervisor complains that you said something. We have an SVP here who has two of the worst employees on earth as her direct reports. They are universally despised for being lazy and rude and the SVP is protective of them and doesn’t realize how it’s to her own detriment – because to all of us, she looks like a crappy manager who only cares about keeping her team happy instead of actually expecting them to work. Someone complained to her about them and she went to HR to try to get the complainer in trouble.

      1. LAI*

        Ok thanks! That’s what I was leaning toward. Maybe frame it as asking for advice, like Alison always recommends :)

  84. Ms. Meow*

    Quick question about references: Would it be unwise to use a boss from an unrelated part-time job as a professional reference?

    I work in a scientific field, but I also work as a private tutor for an independently run tutoring company. I’m going to start job searching in a few months and was wondering if it would be appropriate to ask the person who runs the tutoring center (communicates with clients, sets up schedules, provides materials, handles payroll) to be a reference when I start applying.

    1. Zombeyonce*

      If you really need that extra person, you can certainly use them without it being strange at all, but references that can speak to work you’ve done that’s similar to the work you’re trying to get are better for you.

    2. Chaordic One*

      If I didn’t have references that were more directly related to the position you were applying for, I would use the tutoring reference. Even though it’s not directly related, it should show that you have good communication skills and if you’re applying for a management job, perhaps you have some mentoring or coaching skills that you’ve picked up from tutoring.

  85. Senior Staff Accountant (Public Practice)*

    Timesheets. We hates them.

    I am an accountant in public practice, and I have to bill every six minutes (1 unit). Send me an email, that’s a unit. Ask me a question about something I sent you, that’s a unit. Incorporate a company and neglect to issue shares to your wife to whom you wish to pay dividends, you better believe that’s a unit.

    In my career, I’ve gone from having 2 or 3 entries in a day to 30-40 – how do other people in time based industries manage their timesheets, especially timely recording and not losing an hour a day doing their timesheet.

    What troubles me most is the time lost in task switching (which I am *NOT* very good at – I’m a train, not a pogo stick). How do people capture that?

    How do you deal with the time on the file were you end up burning a bunch of time sorting out something that should have been obvious?

    1. Clever Name*

      I’m a consultant, so I bill my hours. Our smallest increment is 15 mins, fortunately. We have anti e tracking sheet that we use to keep track of what we’re working on and for how long. So I keep track as I go. How do you currently track your time?

      2. Senior Staff Accountant (Public Practice)*

        We use CCH iFirm which handles, time sheets, job management, invoicing and collections. It’s less of a technology question and more of a timesheets are killing my soul question. It’s the nature of the industry, and until I can run my own firm and implement value billing, I’m stuck with it.

    2. Xl Nerd*

      Excel is great for this. There’s a keystroke combo to insert the current date/time, so every time you switch, add a new entry / line with start and end time, + description or keyword. Excel can do the rest of the math, including rounding up. Since it’s a lightweight operation, it becomes automatic and you don’t even think about it when switching gears.

      Depending on the format you ultimately need to submit, you can set up formulas to generate boilerplate daily narratives based on the keyword, or create summaries using pivot tables, array formulas or macros, etc.

      If something was “is the Ethernet cable plugged in? ” obvious, and would put me well over a reasonable amount of time to complete the task, I’ll cut a portion of my time, but generally my assumption is that they’re paying me to do a task, and that’s just how long this particular instance took me. It’s not like I wasn’t working in a good-faith manner, just an oblivious one. ;)

  86. Emi.*

    Part of my job is to attend tag-up meetings and take notes, and I’m not sure how much of the human-interest stuff to include in my notes.

    Who’s angry at whom and why seems like useful information my boss might want, but I feel weird committing things like “Wakeen says the review board are corrupt nincompoops” to writing, even though he did say that. I’ve never been trained in note-taking or minute-taking–I just write fast. Anyone have any advice?

    1. ZVA*

      If it were me, I’d try to leave the emotions out of it—at least water down the strong ones while keeping the essence of the issue intact… I wouldn’t write down “Wakeen says the review board are corrupt nincompoops,” but I’d try and identify exactly what his issue w/ the review board is (something they said or did?) and write that down. Keep what’s relevant, but in a professionally worded way.

      It seems to me that Wakeen’s opinion of the review board might not be relevant (esp. not in so colorful a form!), but his reasons for holding that opinion might be.

      I guess this might depend a lot on your office’s culture, though?

    2. The Fiftieth Girl*

      Feeling your pain, Emi! I am also in charge of writing minutes for my team. Ungh, it is just THE worst task.

      But definitely leave the emotions and dramatic statements out of it. I doubt Wakeen wants the statement committed to black and white.
      I would probably voice it as “Wakeen raised concerns about the review board”. And if applicable, follow it up with “After discussions, the board decided to optimise the review process.”

  87. lemon-glazed teapots anon*

    Is it ever too late to give someone warnings? I mean, we have some problem employees at work. They’ve been here for like ten years, but both of them are very slack – one does so little she’s actually had clients complain because she ignores their emails. The other has medical issues which is understandable to a certain degree, but (IMO and the opinion of many coworkers) she is absent so frequently that it’s impacting her ability to do her job – and when she is here she doesn’t do much.

    All management will say is that they’ve “never given warnings before so they can’t do anything”. I guess this is more of a rant than anything, since there’s nothing we can do. It’s just very hard on morale.

    2. animaniactoo*

      And I spent many years not making bread before I decided to try making bread one day.

      The fact that something has never been done before is not justification for continuing not to do it. Particularly when it’s in the face of a problem (admittedly my non-breadmaking wasn’t a problem although my niece would be probably like me just a little bit less).

    3. Wing Girl*

      My employer just finally dealt with an employee that had been there for almost 20 years and whose absences and performance issues were a continuing problem. Some people felt that because the employee had been allowed to get away with the lack of performance for so long it wasn’t fair to now hold him accountable, but fortunately smarter heads prevailed. He was given a longer time frame for his PIP than if he had been a new employee, but he was ultimately held accountable to change and perform his job well. When he chose not to get on board with the reasonable expectations, his employment was terminated.

  88. HYDR*

    I got a new job! I wasn’t particularly looking and this new job is right up my alley, great pay (30% more!), amazing benefits and managing a team. WAHOO! I’m leaving a dysfunctional situation, with layoffs looming (even though I was told I was ‘safe’….). I start in March and am going to the beach with my family before then. It’s Friday, and the weather is teasing us with a beautiful, spring day and I’m in a great mood ;)

    I don’t comment much on here, I do read daily and this site has been such a great resource for me and I know it will continue to be in my next endeavor. Have a great weekend, everyone!

  89. AnonCatsForThis*

    I’m planning on asking for a raise next week and I’m hoping I can get some advice.

    1. What do you call the meeting in Outlook?

    My manager is the kind of person who likes to have meetings sent to her via Outlook. I’m hung up on what the subject should be. Should I just say “career meeting” or “asking for a raise”? My fear is that she’ll develop a stronger case for why she should say “no” with advance notice.

    2. Should you really not mention what your coworkers make at all?

    Since I work in government, all of our salaries are available online and in the union pay tables.

    The level of work I’ve been doing over the past year has risen, and is more in line with what Lead Teapot Analysts do. We have Assistant Teapot Analysts 3, 2, and 1 in our group and then Lead Teapot Analysts above that. I’m going to ask to be brought from Assistant 2 to Assistant 1 pay both because I’m doing this higher level work and the kind of work I’m doing is beyond what Assistant 1’s do.

    So my question is, should I just talk about have the value I bring is much higher than my Assistant 2 position, or can I talk about how I am bringing more value than people at the Assistant 1 level bring?

    3. What other coworkers make? part b

    Also, my manager wants me to work more with one of the Assistant 1’s in our group, Fergus. Fergus makes by far the most mistakes in our work group. He will also then argue with you about why the mistake that clearly breaks with our procedure is actually fine. He also this kind of person who monologues his train of thought out loud all day and will trail you around for hours as he does this. He makes over $10,000 more than me.

    My manager talks about growing my skills in working with different people by working with Fergus. I would be willing to make an effort if I made closer to what he makes. I’ve made an effort with other people, but Fergus pushes my buttons in a way that other don’t.

    Should I broach the salary difference between me and Fergus ever, either in a raise conversation, a performance evaluation conversation when my manager talks about wanting me to work with Fergus more, or at some other time, or just keep my head down about it?

    Thanks for reading the long post. I’m a frequent lurker here and hope I can get some perspective and advice.

    1. Lily in NYC*

      Maybe be vague and write “Check-in: AnonCats and Boss”. I know the common advice is never to mention other people’s salaries, but to be honest, I have seen it done many times in all of my jobs and it has worked every single time. My office always matches salaries if someone complains about a coworker who makes more and does the same work (unless they want the person to quit).

      1. AnonCatsForThis*

        The main reason not to just calling it a one on one is that usually our meeting subjects are pretty specific. Also, my managers sets up our 1:1s when we are doing performance evaluation or check in meetings. So I feel wired about being very vague. I guess I’m trying to find the right kind of vague for this particular meeting.

    3. Red Reader*

      My experience as a govt employee was that if I felt my position had changed and a different title was more accurate, I could file a request with HR to have my position reviewed and my title (and associated salary) adjusted if they decided it was warranted. I did that once and it was a pretty painless process.

      Meeting subject: “1:1 checkin” :)

    4. CAA*

      I would not title the meeting “asking for a raise”. If you can’t use “one-on-one”, then “career discussion” or something like that is fine.

      Even though information about everyone’s salary is public, don’t bring up specific people and the quality of their work. It’s completely reasonable to talk about how you are really doing Assistant 1 work and you would like to know how to get the Assistant 1 title and salary that matches what you produce.

      Regarding Fergus, his salary differential with you is not an appropriate reason for not making an effort to work with him, and you do not ever want to explain your reluctance in terms of money. (I.e. do not say anything that sounds even vaguely like “I don’t get paid enough for that”, even to your coworkers.) If you’ve worked with him before, and you think your manager doesn’t already know about issues with the quality of Fergus’ work, you can mention them to her once only. Then you have to suck it up and deal with his personal quirks and work with him.

      Lastly, if your manager has actually said you need to “[grow your] skills in working with different people”, that could be a bit of a concern. From what you wrote, it’s hard to tell whether she wants to grow your technical work skills by being exposed to what other people do, or she thinks you have difficulty interacting with other people and need to improve your soft skills by interacting with them more. If it’s the latter, that could make it harder to get the Assistant 1 role you want.

      1. AnonCatsForThis*

        Thanks for your take on the salary differential with Fergus. For what it’s worth, I’ve gotten above expectations (4/5) on my overall year end performance evaluations for the last two years. Not many people in my area get that rating. At the end of 2016, working with Fergus was one of the thing mentions in the ‘overall you are great, here are some of the areas you could work on’ conversation.

        Also, my manager is very aware of the issues with Fergus.

        Thanks for your suggestion on phrasing – something along the lines of “career discussion” sounds good.

        1. CAA*

          Sounds like the issue of working with others isn’t a big concern then. That’s good. I couldn’t really tell from the way you phrased what your manager said.

    5. BRR*

      1) I would go with one on one. My manager uses huddle. Check in also works. I definitely wouldn’t say career meeting or asking for a raise. As a last resort maybe professional development which isn’t really accurate.

      2) No. It sounds like you have a strong case for a raise based on your accomplishments. I would stick to that.

      3) A stronger no. No matter what you earn, you’re going to have to work with difficult people (many of which might earn more than you and might be overpaid). In a separate conversation you can address how things are affecting your work. For his train of thought, maybe post that separately next week. There is some advice like saying “I have to get back to work” or “I’m trying to focus on X and it’s hard while you’re figuring out Y. Would you be able to do that in another spot?”

  90. Duckie*

    I’m worried that I’ve basically backed myself into a corner and made myself unemployable.

    I haven’t had steady work since August and that was a 4 month, part-time, contract position. Before that, I was unemployed since November because I had some health issues I needed taking care of that required me not to lose my Medicaid. Turns out I have MS, so I moved back to my home state so I could be closer to family and have some general support.

    Problem is this area doesn’t have a great economy and I unfortunately have to be ‘picky’ with jobs. Because my last several jobs were short, I know I need to stay wherever I go for a while (plus you need to wait a year for FMLA to kick in). I don’t have the physical stamina for retail, and I need a job that can be somewhat flexible with hours for ADA purposes so things like secretaries and admin assistant are out. Those are about 60% of the available jobs. The rest are either long haul trucking, really specialized IT/Healthcare roles, or sales.

    I worked in the same field since I was 17 (I’m 28 now), but to have a career in that field you have to either move to random places or work part-time for a while, and part-time work would just lose me Medicaid and it’d all go to health stuff. Moving would mean no social net.

    Basically, any advice for navigating career/job changes due to chronic illness? It’s not really something you can bring up before being hired.

    1. Gadget Hackwrench*

      If you need to jump, you have a Bachelors in ANYTHING, and you can handle a computer, come to IT. No matter where you move after that, there will be users who mess up their tech. It’s a constant. Entry level grunt work IT is a lot of correcting very basic mistakes, like people thinking they deleted something when really they just deleted their shortcut to it, forgotten passwords, “how do I send an e-mail” and things like that. You’re chained to a phone and a keyboard all day, so not much physical stamina needed. You may run into scheduled issues however, as bottom tier phone techs are generally one of those jobs where coverage is a concern.

    2. Case of the Mondays*

      Can you see if you would qualify for ACA (“obamacare”) subsidized health plans if you have a part time job? I get being afraid of this option though given the current political climate.

  91. nonprofit elf*

    OK, so I have a somewhat unsettling situation that I’m not sure how to handle. I started looking for a new job around six months ago with the strong impression that Boss wants me to do just that. I’m not exactly sure why Boss hired me, beyond that I wouldn’t need much supervision. We do the same kind of work, except she does all the stuff that would go on your resume as an accomplishment and I do what could be successfully handled by someone with three years of experience. I have 10 years of experience. I’m not happy and any time I try to do anything interesting (e.g., mentor a neglected junior employee, help peers from other departments learn skills I have and they don’t at their request) Boss cuts me off at the knees. Long story short, I’ve been highly unhappy.

    Grandboss publicly assigned me a stretch assignment. It was pretty much the same work that I do now, just at a higher level and the kind of thing that will get a bullet point as an accomplishment on my resume. Boss expressed fury to me (I sat in her office and told her, “I’m feeling really uncomfortable right now”) and then Boss just… took it. Started assigning me the very junior bits of it again while she began doing the real work. Within 24 hours, Grandboss gave it back to me and Boss fought her publicly for it. It was all in front of another department. It was the single most uncomfortable experience of my career.

    I completed the stretch assignment on deadline and got great feedback on it from the other department and from Grandboss. Grandboss now wants to meet with me to talk about how I felt about the experience and how I feel about my job right now.

    Honestly, if I was doing this kind of work regularly I would stay at least another two years. I’m uneasy about how to handle this situation. I don’t want to waste my time waiting (and possibly turn down another position) if it means that I continue doing low level junior work. On the other hand, I don’t want to come across like I am undermining or undercutting Boss (it just seems like a trap). And, I don’t want to lie to Grandboss and tell her everything is fine and I love it here, and then give notice within 3-4 weeks.

    Any suggestions about how to safely navigate the drama?

      1. Spoonie*

        I would let Grandboss lead the conversation and be honest without being emotional or accusational (hard sometimes).

      2. nonprofit elf*

        I was thinking of just directly telling Grandboss what my career goals are (what I do at a higher level and a related, higher level component I did at my previous job) and asking her if there is the possibility for my position to shift that direction. The problem is that Boss directly told me in the summer I would not be doing that work (I dusted off my resume the next day and started exploring). So it feels kind of inappropriate to bring it up with Grandboss after Boss said no.

        I like Boss as a person but not as a boss and to be honest I don’t really want to work for her anymore. This whole situation just reinforced that. I actually miss my micromanaging bosses; I never felt like they saw me as competition and I always felt they wanted me to shine. I’ve been asking a lot of very specific questions in interviews to be sure I don’t land into another job like this. I do kinda feel like Grandboss should be able to see Boss’ weaknesses as a boss based on this situation alone.

        Also, my performance review is upcoming. I had intended to ask for a better job title in the full expectation that Boss would say no without consulting with anyone. Now I am wondering if I should bring that conversation up with Grandboss instead.

        1. orchidsandtea*

          Honestly, this seems like one of the rare times to go around Boss to Grandboss. Grandboss is, after all, asking you to. Share what happened (matter-of-factly) in your past conversations with Boss and the projects she’s taken away, and what your career goals are. Let Grandboss draw her own conclusions, but give her the accurate information to do so.

          1. really*

            Agree. And the fact that GrandBoss saw wahat happened and took the assaignment away from Boss when she took it away from you tells you GB does have some idea of what’s going on.

    2. Sadsack*

      How would discussing your own career goals be undercutting your boss? I think it’s great that your grandboss is interested in talking with you about this. Just go for it without guilt.

    3. Danae*

      Be honest with Grandboss! It sounds like Grandboss knows something is up and is basically wondering if the behavior they saw with this project is the norm for you and your boss.

      You can be diplomatic about it, of course, but Boss has undercut herself in public at this point. Go into the conversation with Grandboss with a list of specific instances of the work things that have made you unhappy. You may not have to trot it out, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that conversation turns wider-ranging than just being about this assignment.

  92. Athena X*

    I started a job 8 months ago with a boss who was recently promoted to her level. While she interacts and works well with peers, and is liked and admired by those out of her chain of command, on the inside we can see that she is a mess. Her schedule is in complete disarray, she frequently has no idea what is going on, she is a poor communicator of her decisions and then is defensive and blaming when things are not done (that she never asked for), etc. She exhausts me.

    I need to stay in this position for 6-9 more months. What can *I* do to manage this situation in the best way possible? She is not going to change. I need to change the way I manage and perceive this situation.

    1. Zombeyonce*

      Do you really have to stay? I’d start looking elsewhere now unless that’s absolutely impossible because of some outside factor. If it’s just that you don’t want a short stint on your resume, is it really worth spending another half a year there watching it crash and burn and become more unpleasant? You have a great excuse now to give to interviewers if they ask why you’re looking: “The management changed and the culture of the office is no longer the kind of environment I work best in” or something like that.

      And even if it takes months to find something, at least you’ll have started.

  93. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    So this isn’t about MY work, but someone’s, and it’s bothering me.

    My wife and I see a lot of movies, usually around the same time and day at the same theater. So we see the same employees. They do great, and are treated OK, but one of the usual ticket checkers who has to sit in the open and see everyone has severe, obviously self-done, scarring on her arms. The uniform is a black t-shirt, so there’s no hiding it.

    I just feel uncomfortable, stuck between trying not to stare and wanting to say something kind. Some friends, as teenagers, had that problem, and I did my best to help. And my wife- it happened a few times with her as well. I don’t want my wife to be upset.

    Would it be out of line to find a Manager at the theater and say “maybe you should give employee X a variance on the uniform so she can wear long sleeves if she wants? Or see about if she wants to work different duties?” I wouldn’t mention the why, just that it’s a good idea.

    1. Kyrielle*

      I would hesitate to do that, big time. It could cause problems for the employee with the manager, and it may be that the employee is fine with them being visible, but would be upset by the idea that someone “complained” about it to the manager.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        And the manager might take it as a complaint, particularly if you mentioned your wife being upset, and either put her in some less visible scut-work position or approach her like the scars need to be hidden because they’ve gotten complaints. This could seriously backfire on the poor girl.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Nooooooooo, I wouldn’t mention it. Your intentions are good, but no. I’d leave it to the manager and the employee. I know former cutters who are very frank and forthright and wear their scars with the pride of recovery, and some who are very ashamed of them. Either way, I don’t think it’s your business.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        And ixnay on saying something kind. As I said, you don’t know how receptive she’d be. As someone with a visible handicap, I highly recommend treating her just as you would anybody else.

    3. fposte*

      Agreeing with everybody else on the general no, but also I’m going to pick up on the “I don’t want my wife to be upset,” which stands apart amid the other impulses in there and I suspect is a significant factor. I’ve read your posts here long enough to understand where you’re coming from, but think about the implications of what you’re proposing–that you’re actually considering suggesting that somebody be reassigned at their job in case their appearance upsets your wife.

      I think you’re in a challenging place as the well spouse to somebody struggling, but it’s important to realize that you can’t cushion the world for her; I suspect also you’d be pretty horrified if somebody suggested your wife maybe should be less visible because her difficulties might upset somebody.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        I suspect she has been horrified by exactly that situation, and would like very much to avoid causing that to someone else.

        1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

          Exactly. “I might upset people,” is a constant thought as a same-sex couple when considering affection in public and such. I wouldn’t ask someone else to change how they present or act in public, and I realize any upset is not the employee’s problem.

          But my good friend was absolutely horrified for a while when the gym class uniform was a t-shirt; and no, you had to follow it and not wear extra layers. My friend was uncomfortable, and people teased her. I wouldn’t wish that level of discomfort on anyone.

          1. fposte*

            Sure, but you did mention upsetting your wife, not just the employee’s discomfort. And the problem is that any comment to the manager–especially if you bring up the possibility of customer upset–is likely to be perceived as disapproval of what you’re seeing.

            It’s good to be sensitive that other people might be uncomfortable, but trying to manage other people’s discomfort isn’t something to make a habit.

            1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

              Thanks, I guess you’re right. I grew up in a family that was not direct at all with their emotions, yet at the same time very similar to “tiger parents.” So I am really in tune with feelings of people around me, and can feel anxious that I’ve done something wrong, if someone is uncomfortable.

              Have you ever read the Onion article that says “Woman Has Said “Sorry” 50 Times Already Today?” or something like that? Between Minnesota nice and some anxiety, that IS me. I’m working on things though.

              1. fposte*

                I’m really glad you’re hearing this as I was hoping–I was absolutely thinking it sounded like you’re regularly putting yourself on the hook for stuff that isn’t your hook, so to speak, and that it’s ultimately not good for you! I have a good friend who’s very similar, in that if something is wrong she assumes it’s her job to fix it. And while high levels of concern and responsibility have value, it’s important for your own sake not to see every problem as yours. It’s also a complicated learning task to figure out when inaction is the best response and to square that with our own emotional worldview.

                And I just remembered you’re going to be a parent soon, so you’ll have plenty of chances to struggle with all this :-).

              2. zora*

                It is very much NSFW, but Amy Schumer’s show did a sketch about women saying “Sorry” that was absolutely amazing, I was crying laughing. I think you would like it ;o)

                but I have to agree with “don’t assume her feelings.” this is technically a stranger and you just don’t know how she feels about her scars, so you need to figure out how to stop internalizing this and taking it on yourself!

          2. Kyrielle*

            What fposte said. If you knew the employee, knew she had requested a variant uniform to hide the scars and been denied, you could speak up as a customer and ask them to please support that, and maybe it would be valuable. But without knowing what she would want, you would be acting for her on an assumption – and even if the assumption is right, that can feel pretty bad.

            Imagine for a minute that she did ask for that and was denied. And she has managed to make enough of her peace with it that she is still working the job and getting through. Then you – with no way to know if she wanted that – talk to the manager. Maybe it gets her the uniform change. Maybe it just gets her lectured about trying to enlist customers (when she didn’t even do it), or switched to a scut job, or something else. Honestly, she probably then feels really bad / awkward knowing that it *did* make some customers uncomfortable enough to speak up without being asked/knowing her.

    4. Spoonie*

      I wouldn’t say anything. You don’t know that she hasn’t been offered a variance already and turned it down. And having been in the situation of someone trying to put me in a bubble when I’m struggling with something, don’t do that to your wife.

    5. Gadget Hackwrench*

      Goodness no. If it’s only scars, then she’s not currently in the behavior, so there’s no safety risk and it’s definitely best to steer clear. People with SH scars can take a lot of time to come to accept them and be OK with people seeing them, so unless she’s showing some VERY obvious signs of distress at not having long sleeves, even an offer of a variance would come across as if to say “you SHOULD be ashamed of your scars.”

    6. Case of the Mondays*

      Also, you have no idea if they are actually self harm scars. I have a client that was in a car accident and is left with scarring that looks like self harm. People frequently ask her about it. It’s from the accident and her subsequent surgeries.

      1. Lemon Zinger*

        Exactly. I have scars on my arms too. They’re from a summer camp accident and cat scratches. So, no. Not self-harm.

    7. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      Nooooo! Oh, please do not do that. You have literally no clue what the situation is. Perhaps the manager did offer the variance but the employee turned it down. You may feel uncomfortable with it or think it is a trigger for your wife to see it, but that employee may be doing it to reduce the stigma or because she is uncomfortable in long sleeves or any other reason that has absolutely nothing to do with you. If your wife had a miscarriage, would you demand that the manager hide his pregnant employee so as to not upset your wife? Would you tell the waitstaff at a restaurant that they have to remove a family because your wife might get her feelings hurt?

      It’s very commendable that you want to protect your wife… but are you really using it as an excuse for your own discomfort? Think about that. Also, you claim the scarring is obviously self-done, but unless the employee has said “I did this to myself”, then no, it is not self-done.

      Please do not make this worse for the employee. Can you imagine if your boss came to you and said that you need to have your teeth whitened because others are uncomfortable with how yellow and stained your teeth are? Wouldn’t you feel humiliated? Shamed?

  94. Dolphin*

    I’ve been thinking recently about how you know when its time to switch jobs. I’ve been approaching it from an unusual angle though – I’m really happy with my job; does there come a point when I should switch anyway? I feel like I have everything going for me at work:
    -an excellent manager who understands me, supports my career goals, and provides me with opportunities for development
    -interesting work assignments that continuously require me to learn and apply new skills
    -a good work environment, such as friendly colleagues, flexible hours, and the ability to work from home
    -opportunities for promotion
    -internal transfers are an option if I get bored with my current role

    The one con with my current role is that it’s highly “non-traditional” (in the sense that it makes use of the skills I learned in school but is not directly in the field I studied. Think studying teapot design, and ending up in a job designing software for teapot designers instead.) I can’t decide if this is good or bad.
    Good – the niche fits me perfectly; I’m excellent at my job; I was lucky enough to stumble into it and I should consider turning it into a career.
    Bad – it will be harder to switch to a more traditional role in the future if I stay in this role for too long/not many jobs like the one I have now exist and I may want to/need to switch jobs in the future.

    I’m not actively looking to switch jobs right now, but I have wondered for the future – assuming everything above continues to hold true, is there some external reason that I should switch jobs anyway? For example, is there a maximum number of recommended years to stay at one company? I also wonder if I could be equally happy somewhere else – there have to be other companies that also have the benefits I outlined above, but there’s no real way to know. If anyone has some insights into switching jobs when the going is good, please share!

    1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      If you are happy, stay with it. Don’t lose a good thing just because others tell you what you are supposed to do.

  95. zora*

    Ok, honest opinions please: am I the asshole here?

    Background: I work in a cowork space, so individuals and companies pay different monthly rates depending on the size of your private office or hot desk space. All members are supposed to have equal access to the common areas, including the kitchen areas that have tables/chairs, including four booth tables like a restaurant.

    Issue: Two specific guys started camping out in the booth tables, sitting there working for the whole 8 hour day, 5 days a week. Have been there every day since October, except for a few days over the holidays. I have reported it discreetly to the staff of the cowork space twice, and the guys were gone for a few days. But after the last time, Tuesday, one guy was back on Thursday and was again at the table all day.

    Am I being a jerk by noticing this and being pissed and “tattling” on them to staff? I mean, they seem like perfectly nice guys, but they are the only people on this floor taking advantage of common space like this. It seems like I am the only one bringing this up to staff, so there are 100 some other people on this floor who aren’t saying anything. Does that mean that no one cares, and I should stop being a Nosy Nellie?

    I think one thing that makes me even more BEC with them is that they could be more subtle about taking advantage and I might not have noticed! There are several other floors, if they were rotating which floor they camped out on, every week or something, they would probably get away with it. But the goody-two-shoes part of me that always followed the rules when I was a kid, is irritated that they have been spoken to TWICE about the fact that this is against policy, and they continue to just do it anyway. I kind of have a thing about ‘fairness’ and it’s making me so annoyed every time I see him, even though it’s not like I really need that table or anything.

    So, please folks, if I’m the Fergus here, tell me to just STFU and MYOB!

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      No, I think you’re on solid ground. Personally, I’d just wander over on a break with a cup of coffee and be like, sup. But if you’re not like that, I think you’re fine to continue complaining. I hate people who abused common space.

      1. zora*

        okay, thank you because I was starting to worry I was insane.

        I have thought about saying something myself, but am not sure how to put it without sounding like a jerk, especially since i’m so irritated about it now. And the staff keep saying this is why they are here, it is their job to make sure everyone gets equal access to resources. But I’ll think more about what I could do to just take this head on.

        Thank you!

        1. Artemesia*

          You should not have to deal with this and the landlord should be proactive — they know it is a problem, they need to police it.

          1. zora*

            Yeah, the staff does really care and they have been vocal about wanting people to come to them if we see someone violating policy. The cowork space has several floors in this building, though, so there’s no way for staff to be on every floor enough to notice who is misusing space, which I totally get. These guys are really an anomaly, though.

            And staff have been very nice with me, making it clear that this is exactly the kind of thing they want to hear about and saying they will deal with it immediately. It’s really these two guys out of hundreds in our building who just don’t seem to get it.

    2. Artemesia*

      I’d be pissed if I were in co-work space and couldn’t use the amenities I am paying for like the commons. This space should be used for brief conferences e.g. a meeting with a client that lands for an hour or a few on occasion; or for lunch or brief meetings with colleagues; it is not office space and they are stealing your space.

      1. zora*

        thank you both for validating that I am not crazy for being frustrated with this. I will try to be more calm but continue to push back, because this really isn’t fair to everyone else on our floor, not just me.

  96. Super Anon*

    My networking has paid off and I have a phone interview for my dream employer.

    I’m totally getting ahead of myself but if I do get this job, I’ll be in a bit of a pickle, and here are the details
    – I’m one of two people in my department – it’s me and my boss. I recently had a coworker leave.
    – We are working on a high-importance, fast-paced project that should really be the work of four people. Without my help, this project would all fall to my boss and would still have to happen.
    – She has mentored me a lot over the last few years and has taught me so much. I feel a sense of loyalty and duty towards her.
    – Coworker who left fairly recently have 4 days notice, and it was not received well because of how short it was.
    – I love my job but I’m leaving to achieve a better work life balance at a different company

    IF I do get this (or any other) job, I’d like to give 4 weeks notice if my new employer is comfortable with that. I’d like to do so because I know my boss will need some time to get a game plan together for herself personally and/or for our department/company. (There’s a real possibility that our department doesn’t exist if I leave). However, I (1) don’t know if giving 4 weeks notice will be possible, (2) would be in mild financial hardship if my notice period is cut short by my employer, (3) don’t want to sacrifice other benefits with a new company in order to provide this longer notice period to my current boss.

    Has anyone ever faced a similar situation? Is there any reason to tell my boss that I’m thinking of leaving before I give notice so that she can plan accordingly?

    1. Number 1 first*

      It’s very thoughtful that you recognize the bind your current boss will be in when you leave, but you shouldn’t accommodate her with extra leave at the expense of your finances, your work/life needs, and your new job. Maybe you can give three weeks but definitely give two, and build in a few extra days off in between jobs if you can, to help you relax and reset for the new job.

      And it’s generally a bad idea to tell your boss you’re thinking of leaving. A good boss knows to assume any of her staff can leave at any time and a good company supports the resources needed for cross-training, etc. to help smooth transitions like that.

    2. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      Don’t give notice that you “might” be leaving. Give notice when you have accepted the offer. But also think out this time frame. Phone interview, a week before an in-person interview, a week for a job offer, a week to accept, plus a notice period. You really are looking at 6 weeks or so, and that’s if the new company has a swift hiring procedure. It’s very possible it will take a 2-3 months. So will this fast-paced project be done by then? If not, see if you can encourage boss to find a third person to assist with just this project.

      Ultimately, you shouldn’t have to factor in what will happen at old job when you make your decision at new job. Would you turn down New Job or reduce benefits for your current boss? I doubt it – I certainly wouldn’t. And I think your boss would understand.

      2. Chaordic One*

        Ophelia’s comments about encouraging your boss to find a third person (and ideally a fourth person) to assist with the project are really on target. You might say something along the lines of you’re getting really burnt out and stressed or something. Your boss is probably feeling the same way, but she really needs to get another person on the project. Perhaps she could bring in a couple of temps.

  97. Miriam*

    TGIF! I’m coming here to ask if anyone has any background and experience with SAP’s Crystal Reports 2016. I’m in the early stages of learning it via an online tutorial, which has been very informative, but I’m wondering if I should buy a book also? Any tips on the ins and outs of the program? I’d love to hear anyone’s experience, tips, etc. Thank you!

    1. Gadget Hackwrench*

      No experience as a user, but it’s a real pain to get it to interop properly with… anything.

  98. Uncivil Engineer*

    I work for the government in the US. A long-time, union-represented employee was fired this morning. It was kind of awesome.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I’m impressed. I once had a client who sat all day playing clash of clans and still got awesome reviews.

    2. LCL*

      Was it a ‘they did something so bad they were put on leave then fired’ or a years long, bad review and document kind of firing? I gots to know!

  99. MissMaple*

    I just wanted to post a quick thank you to Alison and the community! You guys are the best and got me through a really tough year, sticking it out until I found a job that was actually better and not just an escape from a bad situation. By holding out, I was able to take your advice and watch for the red flags I’d missed in my old jobs and leave in good standing when I moved on. So thanks again <3

  100. The Fiftieth Girl*

    I just joined a new office last month. Everything has been going well, some things I can handle great (presentations), some things I am handling not so great (dang-ed e-mails. Apparently I just don’t use the right words).
    I have a huge honking insecurity though:
    I keep worrying that I am not adding value to the office. That I am a load, which the office will get rid off as soon as they can. Probably doesn’t help that despite working 10 years and older than most in the office, I am very new to this brand new industry and don’t know how things arae done there.
    Plus the fact that I am now working as a direct report from a friend and former colleague, who went out to bat for me by acting as a referral. So I am deeply worried about letting her down and damaging her professional reputation.
    I am not certain if I actually have a question to ask, just wanted to share my woe. Hope this insecurity will become better in time.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Just seeing this post TFG. Uh. You have been there a month. I think most people feel kind of “iffy” or down right worried for at least six months. Please let yourself up for air, talk kindly to yourself.

      Reality is probably true that most of us do not add value in our first month, eh maybe not even in our fifth month. Good employers know how long it takes to get up to speed. Focus on getting up to speed. When Negative Nancy starts her chatter about “getting rid of you” or “you are a load”, tell her to STFU. Tell her that you are working on everything and in a short while, this picture is going to look very different.

      Punchline: You catch yourself thinking a negative thought follow it up with a situation appropriate affirmation, such as “I will work at this until I get it.”

  101. with cheese*

    If I have to send another document back after adding detailed notes on what needs to be changed, I’m going to scream! This happens at least 20 times a day, no hyperbole, and this is not something that’s going to change – just needed to vent.

    1. Spelliste*

      Wishing you well, and that there was a magic wand to make people retain editing advice and not repeat the same mistakes indefinitely. I know that pain…

  102. Spelliste*

    Hey everyone, I’m hoping for a bit of career change, not-for-profit/do-gooder-y advice. I manage a global program (mid-level) for a large, international company whose mission I’m at best ambivalent about. However, they do tremendous work in diversity and community development.

    I’m at the point in my career where I finally feel like I’m allowed to pursue something fulfilling instead of just whatever will put food on the table, and would love to be making the world a better place. I’m open to many fields and missions, but have a preference for growing/building programs in large orgs (and seem good at it if my promotion history is reliable evidence). I’m interested in the in-house diversity and comm dev programs, but suspect moving outside the cocoon would be better. I also have a big dose of impostor syndrome when it comes to non-profit work, and tend to think of that world as filled by hyper-competent Ivy League grads who’d eat me for lunch and shame me for even trying, despite knowing better.

    Do you have any advice or experiences to share on shifting your career towards doing good? Do you have a sense of what it might take a skilled corporate program manager to transition? I’d love to hear anything the lovely AAM commenters might share.

    1. Development Professional*

      I say this in the spirit of advice, and not nitpicking, but stop using the phrase “do-good” or variations in talking about a nonprofit career. I’m completely sure that you mean this in the best possible way, but it grates really hard on some of us because it sounds patronizing. Similarly, it’s great that you’re looking for mission driven work. But don’t think of that work as an *alternative* to something that will “put food on the table” unless you’re looking for a volunteer gig. Your nonprofit colleagues all have rent to pay, mouths to feed, student loans to service, just like you. They also want to support themselves while serving their mission.

      So. You have a skill set. Focus on that in a very specific way when you’re looking for non-profit positions to find a match. Some things will be transferable, some will not. Do no overestimate how much is transferable, or will seem transferable to a hiring manager. Moving between sectors AND trying to shift your skills/job function might not be possible in one or even two career moves. So start with the sector shift first, even if that means staying closer within your “cocoon” for now.

      Finally, it’s good that you’re open to lots of different missions. But you should make a good faith effort to narrow it down. It’s one thing to believe that something’s a good idea in general – sure we all agree there should be homes for the homeless, clean air and water, children in safe homes, cures for diseases, etc. etc. But what’s meaningful to you specifically, not just in general? What are the problems in the world that you know about or care about, maybe not necessarily through experience but through context, your past work, your education, your family history?

      1. zora*

        In fact, volunteering might be a really good first step. Get on the board of an organization you like, many organizations are always in need of board members with strong work experience, and work on really learning how a nonprofit is run, what different positions actually do all day, etc. That would give you a more clear picture of exactly what job you want to get at some point.

        1. Lord of the Ringbinders*

          Yes to volunteering. No to going straight to the board – why not do something more on the ground?

          1. Spelliste*

            Yes, very much agreed to you both! Volunteering on the ground seems like an ideal way to get to know both a field and an organization. Not sure I could effectively contribute at a board level, though I know some people who do.

            Thank you!

            1. zora*

              But, speaking for a lot of smaller organizations I have worked for, often a lot of the skills people pick up in corporate jobs are extremely helpful on the board! Just things like coming up with processes, marketing ideas, being able to understand budgets and balance sheets, talking through strategic planning. Seriously, you might look into some smaller local organizations and reach out to them and ask if they are looking for board members and what they need from board members. You might have more useful skills than you realize!

      2. Spelliste*

        Thanks for the benefit of the doubt – I’m sorry to have been insensitive, and will definitely avoid it in the future. I was just grasping for a concise way to cover beneficial work outside of not-for-profit orgs as well. I certainly don’t think of it as an alternative to a normal or ideal financial life! This is just the first time I’m able to make career decisions without survival as the primary driver (i.e. take the first thing offered and hang on for dear life).

        I really, really appreciate the advice. To start, I’ll begin looking at the skill requirements in job postings to get a better sense. I’ve observed that program management in the sector seems to require more subject matter expertise, whereas in my current role it’s more operations-focused, so perhaps operations may be a better fit. And I’d be willing to shift down and across if lateral just won’t work. My friends who work in not-for-profit and foundations are very encouraging, but haven’t had much advice on transitioning, as they were able to start their careers there.

        I do have areas of particular passion, especially healthcare access and gender equity, and a love of process improvement. It still feels presumptuous that I would get to choose, but the indecision that creates serves nothing. I’ll consider more through the lenses you’ve suggested.

        Thank you again for taking the time and providing such thorough advice!

        1. zora*

          No, don’t think of it as presumptuous. It’s actually way better if you narrow down a particular sector now, and focus on that. Once you start learning more about a field, you are going to be much better off finding future jobs in that field than if you start in, say, animal rights, and then try to switch to healthcare access later. Focusing down now is actually the right way to go. Start by learning more about those two issues you are passionate about, and get involved in some way now, the worlds of each issue are very small, and it’s much easier to work your way up in one issue than to try to switch between sectors (learn from my mistakes :o\)

          Also, a lot of organizations have public events, or fundraisers, etc. So, that can be a good way to check out a few different organizations in the fields you care about without a huge time commitment, and learn more about what they do and how they work. If I were you I would make a list of organizations that have some presence in your local area (at least a chapter, etc) and get on their email lists, and start looking for any events they are having and start going to them. Go up to staff members and say you have been wanting to get more involved and ask them questions about the org and the field. This is literally why they are there. Then once you’ve learned more about several organizations, you can start narrowing down ones where you might want to volunteer and make more of a time commitment.

          Don’t rush, you have a good job, you have plenty of time to figure these things out so you can find the best fit for future jobs!

          1. Spelliste*

            This definitely answers the “where to start” question, and gives me permission to take time on carefully choosing the mission/field. Thank you for the concrete approach here, and the encouragement! So, research, analysis, field decision, then events and mailing lists, volunteering. You’ve given me a great place to start, and made this far less daunting.

            1. zora*

              Awesome! Glad my background has some use to someone ;o)

              I hope you come back and give us some updates in the open thread, good luck!

    2. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      Yeah, stop it with the do-gooder stuff. We are people with jobs too and, honestly? You really need to stop stereotyping groups of people. The do-gooders, the cocoon, the Ivy League eater-alivers…

      I mean, you don’t want them to make assumptions about you, right?

      I think you do need to think more about the type of org that suits you. What do you really care about and find interesting and want to work to change?

      1. Spelliste*

        Hey, I know you’re people! A handful of my very favorite people in the universe are among you. I’ll definitely avoid the “do good” stuff – I didn’t realize it had demeaning connotations, and I really admire people who do this kind of work. Lesson learned! The cocoon is very real though (it’s my safe, secure current world that’s very hard to leave), and I know the eater-alivers are a figment of my anxious, never-feeling-up-to-snuff imagination.

        Thank you for the feedback on both fronts, the language and my request. I know I have more hard thinking to do, with two particular areas I care deeply about (healthcare access and gender equity), and a whole lot of research. Once I’ve done some more of that, I’ll start to narrow down and focus on orgs where I might be able to volunteer.

        On the making assumptions about me front, that one may be an uphill battle in the transition, if social interactions are any measure. I work for a financial corporation right now, and you should see people shut down as soon as the sector is mentioned. All the more reason to be as thorough, prepared, and informed as possible!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Take this with a grain of salt. I worked for an NPO for over a decade. Disillusioned does not fully describe.
      So that is my bias right there.

      I would like to suggest to you that you might consider “green” for-profit companies. Just because a company is “for profit” does not mean they are evil. Matter of fact there are several for-profits I know of that are doing some serious-serious good in this world.

      Go to a health food store and look at the names of companies on their products. Usually health food stores have lots of flyers and info booklets. Grab some to bring home. Go to home shows that feature green companies. Look for companies in your area that are trying to be socially responsible or environmentally responsible.
      Solar panel companies are exploding around here. People are starting to get interested in geo-thermal stuff, too.

      I had to laugh about the Ivy League grads. Not seeing that around here AT ALL. If anything I see people who are wildly under-qualified for the position they hold. Be extremely careful. Don’t go into this with stars in your eyes. Front line people are under paid, under staffed and under trained. If they make the slightest slip up they could face jail time. It’s rough. Management people who get respected are the ones who are seen working hard. They are rare. I could go on. You have to have a tough layer of skin.

      1. Spelliste*

        Thank you for the perspective. I’m a bit naive here and will put effort into getting grounded and realistic. I’m definitely okay with socially responsible for-profit orgs. Large companies can bring organizational resources that amplify the efforts they support, if they’re willing. Plus, they might provide an easier avenue into a field, but we’ll see. (Funny that you should mention renewables – have a background there, on the fed side.)

        Also thanks for the reality check on qualifications and the real experience. Willingness to bust your butt + passion for mission seem to be key for both success and survival. I’ve heard org/management cautionary tales that echo your description, and will proceed with caution. Zora’s advice on getting familiar with organizations should create room to do that.

  103. whyamionthisemail*

    I’ve just gotten to a place where I think I need to find a new job, but I’d be leaving my first job since graduating from college and I don’t really know what I’m doing. TL;DR: how do people go about choosing their next job when they’re early in their career and not entirely sure what they want to do?
    Longer version: I’m in my first job out of college, I’ve been here three years, and got promoted quickly at the beginning. I’ve now reached the ceiling of where I can go in this organization, but I don’t really have a 5 year plan and I’m concerned about taking “any job” as I would like to keep growing in some coherent way. My issue is that my current job has elements of two unrelated areas (I do policy research in two very separate areas, think tax and national defense) and I enjoy both, but am concerned about my prospects in both fields. I don’t really want to join the military, which would limit progression on that side, and I have no plans to get a tax degree. I could also apply my research experience to a new issue area, but I just don’t know how I should be thinking about career progression. I’m afraid to let what little knowledge I have in either of these fields go, I’m concerned about making the wrong choice of field if I choose one and it turns out I can’t progress, and I’m also concerned about getting another research-based position that won’t really provide me with any meaningful growth opportunities (think moving from a think tank to a non-profit–I’d probably only qualify for a Research Assistant position at either and I don’t really know how to go about getting the expertise I’d need to be a subject matter expert in any field from my current position). I’m not totally sure where I’m going with this, but I’d appreciate any thoughts or advice folks might have to offer!

  104. Crylo Ren*

    Any tips on the best ways to express gratitude to colleagues who take the time to write you a recommendation for grad school? I can’t imagine it’s the most fun thing to do, even if you really like the person and want them to succeed.

    Also, just thinking about a worst-case scenario, if I don’t get into the schools I want to get into…how to deal with the potential awkwardness of letting your recommenders know you didn’t get in? Has anyone here faced that before? Fingers crossed I won’t have to deal with that, but you never know.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I would just send a light-hearted card that says, “You made my day, thank you so much!”

    2. Chaordic One*

      I’m sure that a sincere thank you note, perhaps written in a nice card (a thank you card or a blank one), is always appreciated.

      I wouldn’t worry about dealing with not getting into your first choice of school just yet. There’s a very good chance that you’ll get into one of your first choice schools. If you don’t, focus on the good things about the school(s) you did get accepted to. In a worst case scenario, if you didn’t get accepted into any of the schools you applied to, thank them and say something along the lines of you will be rethinking your next move (which is probably the truth).

      I had one person, a former boss, write a letter for me, but she sort of flaked out on me. By the time her letter arrived, I had already found someone else to write one of the three letters of recommendation necessary for the application. However, I still sent my former boss a thank you letter (and never said anything it arriving too late to use).

  105. Danae*

    I’ve had three people tell me recently that I’d be a good nonprofit executive director. (I thought the first person was joking when she invited me to apply for the ED position for the org I work for; after two more people were like “no, you’d be really good at it, we’ve seen you work” I’m starting to consider it.) I’ve got the operations management stuff down–I am *very* good at organizing projects, keeping all the plates spinning in the air, and making sure to track the tiny details.

    What I’m missing is fundraising strategy and experience. (In my current role, I execute other peoples’ fundraising ideas, but I don’t come up with them myself.) Does anyone have any advice on learning about fundraising strategy and management? The local university has a certificate course in it, but it’s expensive (about $3k), takes 18 months to complete, and I don’t know if it would plug that gap in my knowledge.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Hmmm, so an ED doesn’t necessarily need to be good at the things you described; that’s handled by the levels of management below her. An ED should not be tracking tiny details, for example. She should be focused on big-picture strategy and fundraising.

      Do you want to spend huge amounts of time fundraising? It’s a enormous part of being an ED — sometimes the biggest part. But what you’ve described already being good at could be an excellent fit for a #2 role, like a COO or deputy director.

      1. Danae*

        (After googling “nonprofit deputy director”…)

        THAT is what I would be good at! That’s basically a good chunk of my current job (I manage communications, do all of the project management work, and do a lot of operations work for my current very very tiny organization, and I do a lot of the work that frees the ED to go do the fundraising and external parts of her job) and more than that, it’s the stuff I’ve always liked doing–taking care of operations and removing points of friction so other people can do excellent work.

        Well, now I have something else to look at. :) Thank you!

  106. Padach*

    I need to quit a job I really love.

    Both my bosses are fantastic, I’m great are the work, the commute is short, and the position doesn’t stress me out. The downside? The cost of living here is insane and 13/h really doesn’t cut it. I’m also wanting to move into something that I can make a career (current job is in retail, and I’ve advanced about as far as I can in it).

    Someone give me some phrasing help? My departure will really strain the small company and I need to get over my need to just non-stop apologize for an hour.

    1. ThatGirl*

      “You have all been fantastic, but I can’t afford to work part-time anymore, and I’d like to pursue a career in _____”.

      Easy. I know there are lifers in retail, but it’s also the sort of thing that people do for a few months, a year, a couple years and then move on from all the time.

  107. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

    At my university they post jobs for other universities and colleges in our break room, next to the big federal/state poster about employee rights. (Don’t know if this is relevant but I worked for 10 years in a corporate environment, and then switched to non-profit education, where I’ve been for the last 10 years.) These are not jobs for students or alumni. They are always high-level positions — vice president, executive director, or assistant dean jobs. I’ve never worked at a place that posts jobs for a different employer. I don’t think HR is passive aggressively encouraging people to leave — we’ve been recognized five years in a row for being a “Great College to Work For”. Does anyone else do this or is my university special? What’s the rational behind this?

    1. Manders*

      Don’t some state universities have rules about all jobs being posted publicly? Maybe someone in HR thinks this is part of complying with that rule.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        I’m at a private non-profit university so I’m not as familiar with public university policies. We have a website for all university positions and, as far as I know, it is open to everyone inside or outside the university. I could actually understand if we were a state university and they were posting high-level jobs at other state educational institutions if they were all part of the same network — like the University of California system. Speaking of which, since California always seems to have special exceptions, I am in California. Does that make a difference?

        1. zora*

          Some schools could have an internal policy about this, as a way of lining up with public policies, and just a way of showing that they encourage leadership development in general. I have worked places that had internal policies about posting all jobs internally first, even though they weren’t unionized, but just because they felt it was a good policy.

    2. Dr. KMnO4*

      The university where I did my PhD posted things like that in our department’s mail room. I think the rationale is that for high level jobs like VP, or dean, there aren’t many openings in any particular year, so if an academic wants to be a dean it could be ages before they’d get a shot at their university. They might get a chance to move up by going to a different school, though.

      Academia can get a bit…stale…sometimes when people just stay in their position. This encourages movement and exchange of ideas. I think it’s why you don’t often see internal promotions from university VPs to university presidents. Bringing someone new in can help direct change where it needs to go.

    3. dear liza dear liza*

      This has been standard at all the universities I’ve worked at. I think part of it is that academia is a small world, so this is an easy, informal recruiting tool. You may see an ad for a VP and while you might not apply, you might mention it to a friend at another institution. Posting the job may also be a way to communicate that the university is doing an external search, and not just appointing from within. And finally, a lot of academics like to think of academia as a community, and they downplay competition between universities. For higher ed to succeed, we want the best and brightest to take new positions. If those positions happen to be at other institutions, so be it. (I buy in to this myself; I tell my direct reports that I want them to grow, learn, and be active in the profession not just for our library, but for the greater good of librarianship.)

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        This was a good explanation, thank you. I guess since I started off in corporate it just always seemed very peculiar — similar to Apple posting a vice president job opening at Microsoft. There is fierce competition for top candidates rather than collaboration. Although, I can say in my 10 years here, there is definitely competition between colleges/universities — at least those that share a geographical area. We all want the top students, top faculty, top donor money, biggest grants, etc. We love to brag about ourselves…

    5. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      It’s rather common for Higher Ed to cross post like this. Mainly because some people really do stay in their positions for decades, so it can be hard to gain experience for others. Switching schools is usually okay because it gives each school a chance to snag someone else.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I think this if fairly common in academia. Many positions for instructors (and surprisingly often for seemingly high-level type jobs such as deans, vice-presidents, and executive directors) are temporary in nature and dependent on the availability of funding. HR might be thinking that if someone is let go this information might help them with their next step.

      Even if jobs at your institution are stable, HR might recognize that your institution is not always able to provide a clear path for advancement in a timely manner and that some people might benefit from knowing what is available elsewhere. Not many things are worse than employees who feel stuck. They feel resentful and begin to slack off and hurt morale.

  108. writelhd*

    I’m sooooo tempted to do something I suspect from reading AAM is probably actually harmful…

    My husband applied for a job opening at a company where I know someone from my work past, we’ll call him Bob. Bob is not someone I know super well or worked closely with at all but he would remember me, I was on general good terms with him, I have his current work email address, and additionally, he DID work very closely with my current boss. This week I even overheard the phone page where Bob was calling my boss, so they’re still in contact and I actually think they’re friends outside of work. My boss is acquainted with my husband socially, but has never worked with him in any professional capacity. He generally knows my husband is looking and expresses the general boss-ly concern that his employees and their families are happy and stable. The company where Bob works never called my husband back about his application but they *keep* re-posting the opening, this is the third time this month. Husband not a 100% fit but he’s scored interviews (but not offers…) for very similar postings before at other companies.

    I’m so tempted to reach out to Bob , or worse, ask my boss if maybe he would would mention it to Bob the next time he sees him…just to try to get more info. Have they found someone, why do they keep re-posting, just an FYI don’t know if they knew this but my husband applied and would really love to be considered… but I know it’s wrong, I know I don’t know Bob well enough, my boss doesn’t know my husband’s work well enough, me being the spouse is exactly the WRONG person to be doing anything like this. But how many other people who had this kind of connection wouldn’t’ scruple to use it? I can’t help shake the feeling that I’m not doing *absolutely* everything I can to help our increasingly desperate situation if I don’t say something…

    Saying something to either Bob or my boss would make it worse, rather than help, right?

    1. fposte*

      You absolutely can’t say anything to your boss. Your boss has no control over this hiring and doesn’t know your husband, which are the two relevant criteria here. Your boss really doesn’t figure in this.

      Pinging Bob can be permissible, but it’s usually done before/along with the application and not after the rejection, and it’s dependent on how well you know him and how confidently and disinterestedly you can recommend the candidate. So you have to know Bob pretty well to ping Bob about a husband, but a kickass former assistant wouldn’t need that much closeness.

      So no on that one too, but a situational no, whereas the boss is a broad “Nope, nuh-uh, nein.”

      1. Artemesia*

        I had the opposite reaction. A wife just CANNOT contact a potential employer. Her husband would never live that down. The one exception might be if they crossed paths in an entirely social context and she could introduce him. Her boss might be able to put in a word, but only if he knows the husband or actually volunteers to look at the resume and do a favor. But the wife just can’t.

  109. Me*

    ARRRRRRRGHHHHHHH

    I’ve been applying to technical editing/writing jobs. Not engineering, you-must-be-a-subject-matter-expert ones, but jobs I could totally do,with pay I can live on in select areas of SoCal. There is no way anyone is going to hire me from HERE. There is no way I can pre-move without a job and on only $5K. My mum said whatever, we will help. I don’t want them to help. I want a chunk of money to fall from the sky so I can take my damn time and not live like a college student in somebody’s garage. I found a very cute studio in Long Beach that I could afford on a certain salary and I wish I could just MOVE. But I can’t get an apartment without a job–or a trust fund. :P

    Exjob posted a tech writer position I could totally do. I applied for it (the HR person in my termination meeting said I was eligible for rehire if I found a better fit–let’s see how true that is). In my cover letter, I wrote, “Although things did not work out after the move to [Department], I enjoyed my time at [Company]. I would be happy to return in a position that is a better fit for my skills and abilities.” I don’t have experience with the CMS, but I can learn that pretty quickly. I don’t want to stay here, and I doubt I’ll get that job. They’ll probably fill it from Support. :( But if I do, I’m going to work my ass off learning the shit so I can leave.

    I don’t want to apply to any more admin jobs because I’m afraid I’ll get too far away from what I was doing at Exjob. Definitely no more receptionist jobs, because they DO call me and the pay is crap. And I will devote every weekend and as many evenings as possible from now to book revisions, writing, querying, etc. I’m tired of being distracted from it by this stupid job hunt. It permeates every minute of the day–I have to leave it behind in off hours as if I’m clocking out or I will never get anything done.

    And the weather is warming up–I’m going to start selling / chucking stuff. The hardest will be my craft/dolls house hoard. >_<

    1. Manders*

      I’m sending good job hunting vibes your way. I live in a techy area too, and the college student lifestyle is not as fun as it used to be now that I’m approaching 30.

      1. Me*

        I know, right?
        I don’t mind paring down / moving if I have to, but living out of a suitcase on starvation wages, eating ramen and having no healthcare, etc. isn’t the way I want to go.

    2. Me*

      Aaaaand a recruiter for a project administrator job for a manufacturing company just called me–I applied to it today. It’s administrative but the career track is sales but the pay is better than most of the crap jobs. UGH UGH UGH UGH UGH. I can feel my editing skills slipping away as we speak!! Why does the one you DON’T want always call you!?
      It’s just like dating!! >:P

    3. DoDah*

      Elizabeth, I’ve been following your posts for awhile now. Are you applying for Tech Writing jobs in SoCal? Do you have any Tech/Documentation Writing experience?

      1. Me*

        Nearly four years of editing software reports. I’m going for very teeny baby jobs (where I can afford the rent on the listed salary) and ones where I don’t need to be an engineer, science major, etc. since I don’t have 80 years of experience. It’s a long shot but you never know. Someone from here kindly helped me with my tiny portfolio.

  110. Zillah*

    I moved across the country last summer (NYC -> Albuquerque). I haven’t been incredibly active in my job search – I moved to be close to my mother, who has ALS, so a lot of my energy and attention has been going toward family stuff – but at this point, I really need to find a job.

    I’m not really sure what to do, though. Ideally, I’d love to work on something vaguely political or activist-y – along the lines of the DNC, the ACLU, the SPLC, etc – but I’m not quite sure where to look. I’ve generally been in the library science/archives field, and I’m not opposed to doing something along those lines (or writing, analysis, research, whatever) – I just want to be in a more actively activisty position than I have been in the past. Does anyone have any suggestions?

    1. katamia*

      Check Idealist.org, although the quality of job listings varies a lot by region, so you may not find much there.

      I’m not sure if this would be activisty enough for you, but if there’s a local Friends of the Library, you could see if they’re hiring for anything.

      You could also look into paralegal work for a firm that works in an area you’re interested in activisting in. Or maybe for your state/city/county/however things are organized there (my knowledge of NM government is, er, not great) if they do cases you’d be interested in supporting.

    2. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      Albuquerque specifically has a lot of Native American/Indian support organizations. If that’s something you are interested in, maybe a grant writing position would be helpful. You wouldn’t have to be in office as much as you would be out researching.

    3. zora*

      This might not be what you want, but typically any nonprofit that has a front line low-level staff, it’s really easy to get hired, and really easy to work your way up quickly if you really want to. But a lot of it will involve raising money, and it won’t pay well to start. But ACLU, Greenpeace, Working Families, HRC (i think), political campaigns. Any canvassing operation will practically hire you on the spot, and then pay you while training. It is a CRAZY job to try to do, but after only a few months of successful canvassing or phone fundraising, you will have many more job opportunties, either internally or jumping to a similar organization. There are also a lot of “online organizing” jobs these days, which involves a lot of writing: writing blog posts/campaign emails/social media, but still are pretty grunt level jobs. Like, check out Avaaz.org. BUT, like I said, it only takes a few months of experience to be able to ask about other opportunities, and you will probably have a lot of support in getting promoted to a position you are more interested in for the long term. Plus, it’s honestly a really great way to learn skills quickly.

      Basically look on indeed/idealist/craiglist for entry-level nonprofit jobs. The first job you get won’t be that fun and won’t pay well at all, but if you really show that you are willing to do your best, you will be able to see what all of the other positions are inside these organizations, and then you can work on a strategy to get into the job you want. There are also lots of unpaid internships out there, which is another great way to get a foot in the door, but it doesn’t sound like you can afford to do that.

      Another option is to get some really basic hourly temp job, and do a bunch of volunteering. Again, you will be more likely to get hired with volunteer experience and connections.

  111. Sadie Doyle*

    Give me your cubicle decorating tips! (Or links!)

    I recently moved cubicles and everything feels really drab (I used to have a window and now I have no natural light). I’d like to brighten things up and make things cheery. My cubicle walls are fabric, and I also have drawers (I looked into covering them with contact paper but I think navigating around the handles would be a nightmare).

    1. Sadsack*

      I would not paper my cabinets or drawers. Honestly, if I saw that at work, I would think it is really weird. If you can hang maybe a couple of decorative things or photos on your cube walls, that may help. Also, I just have overhead lighting in my area and it isn’t great, so I put a small lamp on my desk. It makes a big difference.

    2. orchidsandtea*

      I hung a single 4×6 personal photo and a few pieces of paper I used for reference. I got prettier post-its. I have an electric kettle on my desk, and a colorful mug and water bottle. I wanted a plant but didn’t end up bringing one in, but pothos is nearly unkillable. A calendar is a great idea.

      My one note of whimsy is a tiny paper garland hanging in one corner.

    3. Undine*

      There are shelves you can pin onto the walls of your cubicle, and there are clips you can use to hang pictures. The shelves do cost some money, but it’s really nice to be able to put up artwork and a lego tardis.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      A lot of this will depend on your office environment. Plants are usually a really good idea and you can get a small plant lamp to compensate for the lack of natural light. If your office is pretty casual, add a slip cover or small colorful blanket to your office chair, or a bright decorative pillow that could also be used for lumbar support. If your drawers are metal, add fun colorful magnets just as decoration; a desk lamp is good even if you don’t need it for task lighting.

        1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          For offices it’s good to find a plant that doesn’t drop a lot of leaves, doesn’t aggravate allergies (no flowers), and doesn’t need a lot of humidity but I don’t think you have to be confined to only low-light plants. There are several styles of small grow lights for office plants that shouldn’t bother anyone. I have a little ponytail palm on my bookcase. It does pretty well in my windowless office with an LED lamp next to it. My office mate has a one of those braided trunk money trees and it does really well in our office and she has a small grow lamp she uses a few hours a day.

    5. Gadget Hackwrench*

      Noooooo… no contact paper. I’m a major cube decorator but nooooo. Hit up the Staples or the Office Part of Target. Get stuff you can pushpin to the walls, (or fun pushpins) and magnets that can go on cabinets. No adhesives. Select a nice tissue box. Get a plant. Get a clock.

      Beyond that it really DOES depend on the environment. Some places would definitely frown on my action figures, and my baby Groot bobblehead. Other places, like here, as long as the items on your desk aren’t a distraction you can put pretty much anything SFW on your desk.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I’d find some cheap posters and pin them up or tape them to the cubicle walls to brighten things up. I’d probably just find some pleasant nature scenes in bright daylight. (Try to stay away from sunrises, sunsets, and night scenes.) I’d start at some big-box stores (like Walmart) and maybe some websites like “All Posters.”

  112. TotesMaGoats*

    Well, I’ve made it to day 5/end of week 1 at New Job. Boy am I overwhelmed. There is just A LOT to go with the impressive title. So, at least I know that I’m compensated for the 8 bajillion things I’ll have to do. I did get 3 days with the person I’m replacing. That’s basically unheard of in our state higher ed system. But I kind of had a panic attack and started to cry when she left yesterday. Everyone else was crying to because she was really gone for good. All I could think is, “I have no idea what I’m doing.”

    PROS: The team here is fantastic. Sincerely nice. Lots of laughter. I actually have the tools I need to do my job. I ended up knowing even more people here than I thought and I remembered the computer system better than I thought I would. My commute, even when I got out later than planned is a breeze. 14 miles each way. We all eat lunch together everyday. I have an amazing bird’s eye view of my city.

    CONS: I’d hoped that my hours could generally be 830-430 but they want till 5pm, at least most of the time. I can make it work but it means a big adjustment to the family schedule. We can do it. Just not in one week. So, I’m arriving at work really early. Also, I’m terrified that I’m going to miss something. So, there’s that. My office is an icebox.

    But I was reassured by the way NewJob has treated my predecessor. The way the group responds as a whole. My mom made a good observation as to why I probably got so upset yesterday. I was grieving what I didn’t have at last job and how much they had hurt me. Plus I really wish I could’ve worked with my predecessor more. She’s great and there was definitely a kindred spirits thing. I also have to keep reminding myself that I’m old enough and have worked long enough to be in this role. So, a little imposter syndrome to deal with. But I pulled some data this morning that people had mentioned wanting yesterday and it was right and they liked it. So, there’s that.

    1. yeah right*

      Good for you. It can only get better from here. I also fell on my feet after many years at a toxic job and it’s a good feeling to be working at a place where you feel you ‘fit in’. It will feel strange for a while, but it won’t be long before you shake the imposter syndrome.

  113. Anon Accountant*

    I had an interview today with a large, multinational company. It’d be great and is only 45 minutes from home. They finish 1st interviews Tuesday and then have 2nd interviews. Things should be wrapped up in 2 weeks they said.

    I’m more excited than I’ve been in a long time. The place is literally among houses. There’s a factory attached to the building. You take an exit off a major highway and drive 3 miles past houses and there’s the building.

    It was odd because I was driving and thinking this can’t be right but then there was the huge company sign.

  114. Brett*

    I finally have my chance to switch from contractor to full time at new job (just before my 1 year mark). My manager just informed me the position is open and is going to work with me today on prepping my resume.

    If this all goes as planned, I’ll be two promotions up and more than 50% up in salary from where I was 12 months ago!

    1. fposte*

      I am so happy you are out of the Slough of Despond, Brett. (And I only just noticed in an old post that you also did some time at UofC, so hail Medici.)

  115. Ellen*

    I am relocating for a new job (not a temp anymore! Happy dance!). If it could go wrong, it did.

    Can I get some positive vibes to drown Murphy? I’m exhausted from dealing with the jerk.

    Thank you.

  116. Brand New Boss*

    I am a new manager that is struggling with a staff member. She was hired for a very specific skill set and with the understanding the she would be revamping the process in which we make teapots. Once she started we had a change in upper management that no longer wished for the team member to move in this direction. Instead she has been asked to move in a completely opposite direction. I have spent hours discussing the situation with the team member with the goal of hearing her out and getting her on board. I understand her frustration as the changes are things she is passionate about and dedicated to moving forward with but they are not going to happen. At every conversation she states that she understand the change but is incredulous that the organization is moving in the direction that it is. She repeatedly states she wants someone “higher up” to listen to her side and the benefits. Well, she does not want them to listen, she wants them to agree and I am not interested in tying my wagon to her cause. How do I appropriately let her know that while I understand the frustration she needs to suck it up and either get on board with the changes or move on?

    1. fposte*

      By pretty much stating it outright. “It’s not realistic to expect executive positions to be a sounding board about your frustration with changes, and I need to be clear that I can’t be that for you any more either. I know it’s a hard change for you, and we’ll understand if that means you don’t think this is the position for you after all, but I need discussions to be about what we are doing and not what you wish we were doing. Do you think you can do that?”

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes — and it might even make sense to just call the question. As in, “Do you want to take a few days and think about whether this position still makes sense for you, in light of this new direction? If you realize that it doesn’t, we can work together on a transition period so I have time to look for a replacement and you have time to look for another position.”

        1. fposte*

          Ooh, that’s an improvement because it sounds less punitive, and there’s no need to be punitive–it’s a reasonable possibility that might be best for everybody.

    2. Brand New Boss*

      Thanks! My natural tendency is to be what I consider straightforward but other have called out as harsh or b*tchy. So I overcompensate with playing nice and struggle to find that sweet spot. I appreciate the script.

    3. ExpectationExceeded*

      No matter what she says, it doesn’t sound like she truly ‘understands’ the change or she wouldn’t be incredulous about it. If she is dedicated and well-intentioned then perhaps upper management (and possibly you) also don’t appear to be competent enough or in touch with operations enough to be making that decision. Was she consulted about the change prior to it changing? Have you explained sound reasons as to why it’s not happening? (I assume you have some after hiring an employee with a specific skill set to carry out set work, then doing a U-turn on her). It sounds like she is still holding onto hope which would suggest you haven’t communicated the situation very clearly at all – despite hours talking. So I wouldn’t assume that she is whingeing, but just wants the chance to advocate for what she sees as being in the best interests of the organisation. IMO Kudos to employees that do this and pave the way of the future in organisations that are still stuck in the ‘WHAT MANAGEMENT SAYS GOES (even though we have no idea how to do your job or what it even really is)’ mentality. As her manager, you’ve made it sound like she is difficult and somehow has a ’cause’ you should be liberated from. Are you forgetting that you tied your wagon to that cause when you hired her for that skillset and that role? If she simply wants the chance to communicate her position instead of pulling the pin first, I’d see that as a mark of loyalty rather than one of insubordination. Also, if there are sound reasons that management haven’t heard that she would like to relay to them, then perhaps they should be privy to that information?

  117. AJ*

    I work for a university. My official job title is “Coordinator,” not “Manager,” but one of my primary responsibilities is managing 50 part-time employees. We are trying to improve the performance and retention of our part-time employees, and so I also responsible for overhauling our extensive training program (which lasts 1 year). At a staff planning meeting yesterday, my boss announced that she wants us to begin holding annual individual reviews for all part-time employees. Since I am their primary supervisor and the person with whom the PT employees interact most frequently, it seems to me that I should be the one to conduct these reviews, although I don’t really have the time to do so. However, when my boss brought this up yesterday, she made no mention of me holding the reviews. Rather, she said that she would meet with each employee herself. I’m not sure how to read this situation. She could be doing it without thinking anything in particular, or she could be doing it because she knows I don’t have time (which she may or may not actually know–she’s fairly hands off most of the time), or because she doesn’t trust me, or something else. Maybe it’s also a job title/pay issue; i.e. if I conduct performance reviews, then I should be considered a manager and paid more. For comparison, her title is Director, she makes twice as much as I do, and directly supervises 4 FT employees, including me. Any thoughts/advice?

    1. Mazzy*

      I’d start by asking to help fill out the review forms. That would be a good way to gauge her reaction to you getting more appropriate pay and title.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Or you could say, “Since I work with them every day, I would like to have some inputs into the process of evaluating them. How will we handle this, what are your thoughts here?”

    3. Chaordic One*

      Echoing Not So NewReader.

      Since you are their primary supervisor and the person whom the PT employees interact most frequently, hopefully your boss will recognize that you have a better idea of how they are performing. If she insists on doing it herself, maybe you could ask to sit in on the reviews or give her some kind of thoughtful written assessment for each employee.

  118. krysb*

    I just dropped my statistics class… again.

    But on Monday I start volunteering at the local Legal Aid Society, so there’s that.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Watch out that you don’t run afoul of SAP. Satisfactory Academic Progress. Too many drops can impact that which impacts financial aid. Of course if you aren’t in the US and aren’t getting federal financial aid then none of that applies.

  119. Ellie*

    I got a new job that I’m starting next Wednesday and I’m really excited!

    However, I’m an inherent worrier and there are a few things I’m stressing out about.

    For a start, for the past 5 years I’ve been working retail and this is my first office job (apart from my briefly temping in my step dad’s very small, very informal office), and I’m concerned that I may really stand out as unprofessional or not used to working in an office environment. I’m in the UK, and I imagine every office is different regardless, but does anyone have an tips on possible faux pas I may not have thought of? I’m thinking particularly in terms of dress code, language etc or just any general office norms that I might not be aware of…

    Additionally, I’m a little concerned about how to handle any potential ‘getting to know you’ small talk with new colleagues, specifically regarding plans to have children. In an ideal world, I’d like to avoid the discussion altogether, but I’m a young woman who is recently married, and I can’t help feeling the question will come up. Is there a polite way to make it clear to people that I’d rather not discuss it, without being rude (my response in a social situation would usually be “why are you interested in my sex life?” which I’m aware is much too adversarial for the workplace) or going into fertility issues that make me pretty emotional and are not anyone’s business?

    I’d really like to make a good impression in my new role, because it’s pretty much the first step on my way to my dream job (hopefully I can progress through the company) so any advice in general is appreciated, and especially regarding the above issues.

    1. Manders*

      I’m in the same spot as you as a recently married woman. My go-to is a vague “someday… when I can afford it…” which usually stops the discussion.

      I give terrible advice on dress code stuff because I work in a famously casual city, but my “make this outfit look sharper” trick is keeping a grey or black blazer at my desk and throwing it on whenever I feel like I need to class up my look. Also, if you wear a lot of skirts and dresses and you dread dressing for winter, buy a week’s worth of black fleece-lined tights so you can wear whatever you want without getting chilly.

      1. Ellie*

        Hmm, I suppose I could go with ‘hopefully, at some point” but is that likely to make people think I’m about to go off on maternity leave? It is a brand new job…

        Yeah, dress code is really tricky for me, I don’t have a huge amount of style as it is, and I feel under pressure to have a lot of different outfits so people don’t think I just wear the same thing all the time. I should probably find some links to capsule office wardrobes or something. Plus finding work-appropriate tops that don’t make me look like a child who got into mummy’s wardrobe is not going well…

        Thank you for the tip re: tights, though, I will definitely add those to the list!

        1. mreasy*

          People won’t notice your clothes much unless they’re VERY loud. If you wear a few things repeatedly, that is fine!

          I don’t have a new job but was recently married (late 30s) and work in a close-knit office with lots of parents my age. Lots of folks assumed we’d start going for kids, because that’s what they did upon marrying, and because of my age – but we don’t plan on it. Try saying “nothing planned!” with a smile that is clearly amiable but clearly a little forced, so they’ll know they’re being inappropriate, and you will still be in the good graces of anyone worth knowing.

          1. Spoonie*

            I think the important thing is to have a wardrobe that you can mix and match with rather than have Outfit 1, Outfit 2, etc. If you can mix up your pieces and have a variety of looks, it’s not quite as noticeable that “oh, she wore that last Tuesday”. And frankly, it’s not like everyone has a budget to have a brand new outfit every day of the week — something I had to realize also.

    2. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      UK person here. Congrats on the new job! First off, it’s actually rude to ask someone if they’re planning to have kids and most people should know better. If someone does ask, you do not need to answer. Just change the subject by asking them a question. You don’t have to make it clear, you just have to not discuss it – you can be in charge of those boundaries without needing permission. Now for a brain dump…

      All offices are different and everyone knows that it can take a while to pick up the norms where you are. The really key thing is to pay attention to what others do and try to get the hang of team norms. It’s okay to ask if you’re not sure but don’t ask the same thing twice – take notes.

      Be very nice to people in IT, office services, facilities, admin etc. Thank them for helping you and try never to vent your frustration at them. Read your company’s policies on things like email use and DO NOT send anything by email that you wouldn’t want your boss to see, ever. It’s not your email if it’s work and it’s a good idea to remember that.

      It can be a good idea to ask people how they prefer you to communicate with them. Do they prefer you to send questions by email or walk over and ask? People will have preferences. Don’t move things that are on other people’s desks or let your stuff drift over onto the next person’s desk (colleague with the wandering stapler and Coke cans, I’m talking to you).

      And why not ask your new colleagues what you need to know about working there? This is valid in any new job! Good luck!

      1. Ellie*

        Oh, I’m fully aware it’s rude, hence my usually adversarial reply. Unfortunately, IME that doesn’t stop people (including in one job interview I had, which, good grief, what were they thinking?! Quite thankful I didn’t get that one…) I just really was looking for a polite-but-firm ‘that’s not your business’ script to use without alienating people I want to ultimately get on with.

        The good news is that I’ll be working in a relatively small team who (hopefully) I can pick up the social norms from without too much stress. The tip about asking whether people prefer to be emailed or spoken to is a good one I wouldn’t have thought of, thank you! The email use/data protection policy is pretty strict due to the nature of what the company does so I’ll be sure to read that through again thoroughly. And yeah, being in a customer-facing role for so long, I’m pretty familiar with people venting their frustrations at me, so I definitely wouldn’t want to do that to anyone else, especially not people I’ll be working with/relying on for help.

        This is all really helpful, so thank you for this! :)

        1. Lord of the Ringbinders*

          At an interview? I’m fairly sure that’s illegal. It’s definitely completely not okay. And you have my sympathies – I posted last week on the open thread about being at a wedding and sitting next to someone who kept asking if I wanted kids and after the second time I said it was too personal she ACTUALLY ARGUED AND SAID IT WASN’T. Yeesh.

          I’d stick to ignoring the question and asking them something instead. Wilful deafness, if you like. Personally, the only people who’ve asked me if I have kids in the workplace have been a couple of people with very young children who seemed more to want to find someone to talk to who had that in common than in any way really prying into my life.

          Glad if it was helpful. One last thing: if you are phoning someone, give a one-line summary and ask if they can help. Don’t do what a colleague of mine did the other day and launch into an impenetrable rambling monologue and ignore all attempts to interject. It took about five minutes (a long time in rambling-on-the-phone-land) before I managed to tell him he needed to email someone in a completely different county. He asked if I wanted to be copied in. I said no, as it really wasn’t part of my job to handle this. He still copied me in. Sigh.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Additionally, I’m a little concerned about how to handle any potential ‘getting to know you’ small talk with new colleagues, specifically regarding plans to have children.

      “Oh, gosh, that’s a really personal question.”

      Also, it’s a question people sometimes ask because they want to talk about their own kids, so you could say something like “Goodness, I don’t even know right now. But tell me about *your* family.”

      1. Ellie*

        That first option still feels slightly more brusque than I’m comfortable being with people I’m trying to make a good impression with. I do like your second suggestion of using it to segue into talking about them, I’ll see if I can pull that off.

    4. Mirax*

      Are you one of those people who can tear up a little on cue? Don’t *cry* but just get a little misty, blink very quickly a couple times, and change the subject.

      I always do this the first time someone asks me about kids in a new environment, and after that, no one ever asks me again. It’s GREAT.

  120. "Computer Science"*

    A coworker announced their intention to retire in May! I’m very excited for their new adventure, and also excited for the promise of a new, quieter workspace. This individual’s position is mostly phone-based: of an 8 hour day, 6 is spent on the phone daily.

    This individual is also experiencing hearing loss, and isn’t seeking treatment or support. Every day is punctuated by constant, if unintentional shouting into their phone, whistling, and just a lot of audio interference whenever they are around. I’ve approached their supervisor looking for support for them, but nobody is really eager to help the slowly departing train.

    Is there a nice way to suggest my coworker get their hearing checked? Do y’all think I should just suck it up for three months?

    1. Taylor Swift*

      They probably already know they have hearing loss. Honestly, I’d try to just suck it up until they leave, even though the burden really should be on them.

  121. FN2187*

    I am going to law school this fall!

    Current lawyers, do you have any advice for surviving your 1L year? Is there anything you would’ve done differently?

    1. Bigglesworth*

      Me too! I’m not a current lawyer, but am starting this fall. Any advice would be greatly appreciate!

    2. LawCat*

      My best study tip is to take lots of practices exams under timed conditions. Practice your computer failing in the middle of an exam. Failing a bunch of practices exams will show you where your knowledge gaps are to better prepare you for the real exams.

      Do not worry about what other people are doing. Find the note taking/study technique that’s best for you.

      After actual exams, do not do post-mortems. It’s done. Don’t talk about it with others or mull it over in your mind. You’ll make yourself crazy for no reason. If other students try to engage you, “Sorry, I don’t discuss exams once they’re done.” You may need to physically walk away from some people/groups to avoid it.

      I used box cutters and sliced the covers off my books and split them into smaller chunks. Many classmates were horrified because the books are “pretty” and “expensive.” But by the next years, a lot of people were doing the same thing. I had one book that weighed over 5 lbs. Ain’t nobody’s spine got time for that!

      Avail yourself of opportunities to attend local bar events and meet practitioners. It can be daunting as a student, but many legal professionals love talking to students! There are usually discounts for students or it may be free if you work the event (like checking people into the event).

      Participate in clinics as soon as possible.

      I recommend living off campus.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Hey LawCat!

        Thanks for all of the advice! I especially appreciate hearing about the need for networking! If there is anything you could have differently, what would it be?

    3. Emmie*

      Congrats to both of you! Law Cat has great advice. I’d add:
      – Get your life in order now. You might not have time to do the little things, so resolving those now (i.e. clean that closet) will be nice.
      – Find a healthy way to deal with stress or pressure. If you don’t do it already, ensure that you practice positive self talk.
      – Law students have a lot of activities involving alcohol, and one of the highest alcoholism rates. Practice drinking less at social events. Also, practice staying professional while you drink and do not drive while buzzed.
      – Spend time with family and friends. Prepare your spouse for the distance and focus you’ll need at school.
      – Have go to healthy recipes. And a good workout schedule.
      – One of my classmates treated law school like a 8-5 job. She was there early, studying.
      – Be careful what you focus your energy on. Years out, only 1 of my extra curricular activities is on my resume (law review – and nobody knows I wrote on.)
      – Law schools publish reading lists to prepare you for school. IMO, the best reading you can do is to read a few Supreme Court, or even local / state court cases you’ve always been fascinating with. Just Google them. And practice IRAC’ing them. Read sample IRACs. (Issue, Rule, Analysis, and Conclusion). It’s really fun! Dred Scott, Loving v. Virginia, Brown v. Board of Education, etc. Now, those were some of my favorites, but maybe you want to read the Gore / Bush case, or someone’s divorce papers public on TMZ (Hulk Hogan’s are there if I remember correctly.). It’s helpful to see cases before you go.
      – Your first few semesters might be hard. It takes a while to build up your reading tolerance to the JD level. It will be okay.
      – Although i love technology, I had to be careful with it. I could note take on a laptop, but be careful not to search the web. Legal definitions are super easy to get on the web or an ap, but it was distracting. I bought a cheap paper cover Black’s Law Dictionary and it was better.
      – I didn’t know hardly any of the legal words in my dictionary. At the end of school, I was amazed I knew most of them. You will too.
      – Be careful about student loans. They are expensive. Make do with less.
      – Lawyer jobs are very hard to come by. Network. Do internships.
      And good luck! I comment here regularly so if you have any questions, let me know!

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Hey Emmie! Thank you for your helpful advice! I’m trying to start to comment more regularly on here so I’ll definitely be asking for help as I go through this process. I’ve already favorited this particular open thread to help me as I go through school.

        Out of curiosity, what school did you go to?

  122. An anon in need of advice*

    I am just looking for some general advice here. If you have a full time job and you want to start looking for a new one, how do you motivate yourself to do so after a long day at work?

    1. Murphy*

      Back when I was job searching, I scheduled it for myself. Every Tuesday and Friday (I had Fridays off), I would do an online search and fill out applications. I didn’t always want to do it, but by scheduling it I, a) felt obligated to do it since “today is job search day” and b) could psych myself up for it, since it wasn’t a surprise. Find a schedule that works for you and stick to it.

      1. Hilorious*

        +1 on this strategy– it was important to not have to do it every day, but to do it like a task or chore that was regularly scheduled.

  123. Clever Name*

    I’m sure this makes me a horrible person, but I just received the following invitation to a social event for a professional association I’m a member of, and I think it sounds positively awful.

    It reads, in part: “We’ll bring joy to nursing home elders through singing, dancing and sharing stories. The visit will be guided by Bessie’s Hope, a one-of-a-kind organization that changes the lives of nursing home elders by organizing structured, inter-generational visits.”

    I really can’t imagine doing this with colleagues. This seems especially odd because the organization is filled with analytical nerdy types (I’m analytical and nerdy as well). I mean, I’m down with sharing stories, but the singing and dancing? Just no.

    1. katamia*

      You’re not a horrible person. I think a lot of people would find that unpleasant. Not everyone has to give back to their community in the same way. (And actually, no one has to, but for people who do want to, there’s nothing wrong with going “Eh, not my thing” for a specific activity.)

    2. Temperance*

      Ugh. I’m a huge advocate of volunteering – I manage pro bono for a living! – but this sounds awful to me. As a child, I always hated being forced to go sing and perform at nursing homes. As an adult, I would absolutely refuse.

    4. zora*

      I, on the other hand, love singing, especially with a group, but I’m not in a choir these days, so I would love to do an activity day like this. It sounds really fun to me to spend some time singing with older people. As long as it’s voluntary, I think this is one of those “to each her own” things. ;o)

    5. LilyPearl*

      “We’ll bring joy to nursing home elders”? Do the elders get any say in whether they feel joyful? This sounds very weird. I did the sing/play instruments thing at a care home as a child, but I’d find it odd as an adult in a professional group. It would be different if you were in a choir and putting on a concert, for example.

      2. zora*

        It probably depends on the ward. My grandmother had Alzheimer’s and when she was still kind of low level and not severe yet, she LOVED singing old songs from her childhood. Like, literally, she could do it all day long. On her ward, singing together around the piano was extremely popular.

  124. jamlady*

    I love my job company and our client, I make great money, I’m in charge of everything at our client’s location, my commute is great, I can work from home whenever I want and totally decide my own schedule… But I’m bored. Our main contract, which was my baby, went on hold due to staffing changes within the client company and the company funding it is thinking about pulling it all together. They were so happy with us, but not so much with our client. And I’ve been so bored since then.

    I have an interview in a few weeks for a pretty much perfect fit position. They actually called me – I work with a mutual acquaintance who mentioned to them that our main contract might be over and to give me a call because I have a weird skillset they have a sudden need for. I’m flattered and the job does sound great, but I am so tired of changing jobs (normal in my field) and I have such a great situation with my company and everything! I’m going through the interview process, but I really just want that contract to start up again.

    If anything, I can just stay until I find something new. I know I’m very lucky. But man I am SO bored.

    1. Emmie*

      Being intellectually engaged is as important as those benefits. Don’t feel bad for letting them go when the time is right for you. Try and negotiate for some of them at the new gig if they mean something to you.

      1. jamlady*

        I needed that. I don’t think I’d have the same level of flexibility, but they do have an excellent benefits package and I believe I could negotiate a pay increase. I was going over the job description again and it does look so much more up my alley skill-wise with a lot of growth possibilities. I’m trying not to feel bad about being excited now haha

  125. My words like silent raindrops fell*

    I may be posting too late to get the opinion of the wise AAM commentariat, but I’m hoping for some thoughts on this: I know normally one should never contact a prospective employer after submitting a job application. Does this rule apply when you haven’t received confirmation that the application was received?

    For context, I applied last Thursday (8 days ago now) to a position that seems like an unbelievably good match for me. Per the instructions in the posting, I emailed my cover letter, resume, and writing sample to an email address along the lines of [info at organization dot org]. My email did not bounce back, but it’s been total radio silence since then.

    I’m used to receiving a form letter confirming that the application was received before the employer drops off the face of the planet. This seems like a new low. It’s especially disappointing since the job seemed so perfect and I spent a ton of time on a customized cover letter and an entirely new writing sample just for this application. I should not try to contact them to ask whether the application was received, right? Please talk me down from this incredibly depressing ledge!

      1. My words like silent raindrops fell*

        Thank you so much for the reassurance. In a way maybe this is good news, since it could mean they’re collecting applications and I’ll eventually hear something from them. I will try to put the application out of my mind and move on, as you always recommend.

        More importantly: Oh my gosh, I am SO floored to see a response from you, Alison. I am starstruck! Thank you! Even if I never hear anything from this job, this makes the whole experience a win.

    2. ASJ*

      Echoing Alison, when I was applying for jobs it was way more common to not receive a form letter. It was actually a welcome surprise to receive one.

      1. My words like silent raindrops fell*

        Thanks for this perspective – it is really valuable to learn that my experience has been unusual. I will re-calibrate my expectations going forward (and be happy for those form letters!).

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      I recall applying for a job that I thought had my name written all over it, and there was total radio silence. Then, six months later, they called me for an interview, and the day after the interview they offered me the job. So, you don’t know what’s really going on at their end.

      1. My words like silent raindrops fell*

        Oooh, that is amazing! Thanks for that story, ThursdaysGeek! I’m glad it worked out for you, and super grateful for the encouragement on this.

  126. Hallway Feline*

    I think I accidentally helped my direct competitor, and I don’t know how that will affect me.

    For reference, I work in an industry that does advertising on highways and has to contact a different organization to ask for availability of signs. Our direct competitor also has to contact this organization to check availability.

    I had a potential client contact me and ask about signage in an area, noticing that all the signs were blank where they were interested. I contacted the organization I have to ask, and they responded that this was Competitor’s signage and should not be blank. They they told Competitor to reinstall their signs, thus extending Competitor’s contracts in that area (when Competitor should have lost them due to negligence).

    I have to tell my Director, obviously, to keep her looped in on the blatant favoritism by the organization (they never would have extended that courtesy to me), but now I’m worried I will be penalized. I was just doing my job. I was following my procedures, but now Competitor gets the area when they aren’t even maintaining their signage!

    Has anyone else been in this situation? What can I do in this case? What do I do if I am punished for it?

    (PS: Hello again everyone, it’s been a while!)

    1. Sadsack*

      In what way would you be punished? It sounds like you were doing a regular thing in your job, so if you are told you did something wrong, I’d ask how you should have handled it differently.

      1. Hallway Feline*

        I don’t think it would be direct punishment, since there’s nothing we can do about Competitor having the area. I think it would be indirect punishment such as withholding accounts, etc. for letting the organization know and giving Competitor additional contract time.

        1. Spoonie*

          It sounds to me like the sign organization is showing favoritism and you were calling and inquiring with the assumption that the organization would act in good faith. If maintaining the signage is part of the contract, Competitor voided their contract through negligence, and your client should have then been able to purchase the usage of the signs. However, IANAL….I just wonder if there is some board that oversees this sign organization that you could file a complaint with.

          1. Hallway Feline*

            That board is the government. The organization I get approval from is a government agency as well. It’s complicated to get a higher-up in this case, otherwise I totally would have! =[

  127. Nancy*

    I’ve recently had an initial interview with a small group where I had to present a short presentation, just verbal. They had already scheduled me for a panel interview the next week, which I’ve had. I had the panel interview from 2-3 and at 4:51pm I got an email from the person that would be my supervisor (who I previously interviewed with) asking me to lunch for a one on one. I did reply back that I could and to expand on time and place (she had the date), but I also tried to professionally ask if I needed to have anything prepared. She ignored that part of my email and just answered the basics. She did meet me halfway on the lunch location, which I thought was nice, considering I’d have to take another half day off work if not. I’m from a rural area and extensive interviews aren’t something I’m familiar with. Is this normal? I’ve been told, by friends, she has probably narrowed it down to 2 candidates and wants to meet me outside of the “office” to get a better sense of me as a person. Thoughts? And is there anything I should be prepared for?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      First thought: come in with some new “stories” (not necessarily work-related!). You’ll have to take your cues from your interviewer, of course, b/c you don’t know in what direction the chat will go (personal? more deeply professional?) I know you think you may have exhausted your supply, but if you have at least 2-4 more highlighting your “soft” skills (e.g., negotiating, delivering bad news, talent management with difficult direct reports, professional networking successes, to name a few )–and how you exercised them outside of work–might be something you’ll want to keep in your hip pocket. You also need to ask yourself how much of your personal life you’ll be willing to reveal, and be sure your interviewer doesn’t cajole you into going past your boundary.

      1. Nancy*

        Thank you. I’m really just preparing for anything. I’m looking at interview questions that have more psychology to them and advice columns on boss/employee relations (as she would be my supervisor). I have found that I’m pretty good at thinking on my feet and because I’m not a “new hat” at interviewing I get less nervous. Hopefully, this is just one more step towards a new job.

  128. Bork*

    I have a call today with a group that’s getting it’s knickers in a bunch.

    Let’s pretend it’s Macy’s. My government division requires that all organizations in X field work with us. Nordstrom’s, Bloomindales, Saks, JC Penney, Kohl’s…no one has an issue with our program or it’s minimal requirements. It’s mandated, so they have to do it anyway. But noooo, Macy’s cannot let it go. Question after question, fear after fear, argument after argument. Why can’t you be like Kohl’s?! Chillax. That’s what I want to email them, take a chill pill bros!

    I’m actually holding their hand and helping them extensively so they can join the rest of the groups, but it’s been an uphill battle. I’m hoping today’s call will put everyone at ease and we can all move forward.

    1. ASJ*

      That sounds frustrating, particularly since it’s mandated and they don’t really have a choice. Consider it a victory on your part for staying as calm and patient as you have.

  129. B*

    I really like my coworkers and they’re generally fairly sensitive people but once and awhile they can be incredibly racist about someone with a foreign non-white name. It drives me nuts and I tried to frame it as someone with a less common in English name (I have an extremely Swedish name but am American), I was teased a lot as a kid and it was really hurtful so could we not rather than just being like Yo, guys you are being hella racist but ughhhhhh they did not seem to get it saying my name isn’t that weird (…because it is explicitly white sounding??? IDK). Anyway, I don;t really need suggestions on what to do because I’ll just keep shutting them down and have no issue doing so. I mostly just need to rant.

  130. Take 2*

    I’m looking for career change advice.

    I’m a public school teacher, only a couple years in, and in my mid-20s. I love my kids, but the politics and requirements of my specific position are just not a good match, and I’m resigning ahead of a non-renewal of contract.

    I’m struggling with what to do next. I’ve never done anything except work with kids, but this job has gotten me to the point where I don’t love teaching anymore, and I’ll be ineligible to take a position in the county I’m currently in. I do live in another county, and could take a position there, but… it’s not an idea that excites me at all.

    I do have a current real estate license for my state, but I’m not sure I want to pursue that full-time, given how unpredictable the money can be. I do love real estate law, so the thought of being a paralegal for a closing attorney has crossed my mind (I’d need to get a certificate, though).

    I’m single and a homeowner, so there are bills that definitely have to get paid. I am taking a roommate in May, so my cost of living is going to go down pretty substantially.

    Basically I’m just looking for any advice you have.

    1. katamia*

      Are you not interested in doing anything education-related or just not interested in teaching? If it’s the latter, you might consider tutoring. I taught for awhile (not even full time, which is kinda pathetic), but lesson planning turned out to be so stressful that I had to stop. But I tutored for awhile afterwards (and would consider tutoring again at some point), mostly homework help and test prep, because they would let me do the parts I liked while mostly avoiding the planning that made me so miserable. The per-hour pay rate can also be very good, although it’s really hard to get 40 hours a week just tutoring.

      You do have to focus more on pleasing the parents since they’re paying for your services (either directly if you’re self-employed or your company if you’re working for a company) than you generally would if you’re a teacher, but there are also a lot of other things you don’t have to worry about. For me it was worth it, and if you’re still educationally inclined it might be a good option for you.

      1. Take 2*

        I’ve done a little tutoring, and it’s not my favorite, but there are some definite advantages over my current job. I am on the list with a tutoring company that pays really well, so it’s something I can pick up if I want/need to.

    2. Manders*

      My understanding is that you can get a paralegal certificate with night classes in many areas. I work with paralegals in a different field of law but I’m not one myself. From what I’ve seen, it’s a steady job with decent pay and good paralegals are in demand right now.

      The downside is that there’s often no path to promotion, so it can be a frustrating career for someone who always needs to be working towards the next milestone. Also, the attorneys you work with will have a massive impact on your job satisfaction, and they often come with quirks you wouldn’t find in a normal corporate environment.

      1. Take 2*

        One of the major universities in my state has an online, 14 week program that’s highly respected and pretty cheap (relatively speaking). Plus, steady job with decent pay is an incredibly tempting thing at the moment, and I’m already pretty familiar with real estate law.

    3. Melody Pond*

      My middle sister is in the education field, and while she’s currently planning to go overseas to teach English – our youngest sister recently started at a pretty large investment services firm, and management at that firm, after seeing middle sister’s resume (passed along by youngest sister) indicated that they were interested in the middle sister for potential teaching/training/professional education roles for their staff.

      So, what I’m saying is… there might be all kinds of education-related roles you could take on in the business world, where you’d be working with adults who care a lot about doing well in what they’re learning. If that interests you, of course.

    4. AJ*

      If you like teaching but not the politics/admin, have you considered something like training/professional development? These are often corporate jobs but not always–I’ve applied for a few with state gov’t agencies. My background is similar to yours (though private teaching, not public) and this is the kind of role I’m trying to move into.

  131. CrazyEngineerGirl*

    We’re still trying to hire an administrative assistant after 3 weeks. The resumes I’m getting keep getting better and better.

    This weeks winner? The guy who PUT HIS IQ IN HIS COVER LETTER!

    “I’m a quick learner! I have an IQ of 141.”

    I. Can’t. Even.

      3. CrazyEngineerGirl*

        I know, right? I have never wanted to contact an applicant more. Not to invite them to interview, but to just… I don’t even know really. Drop a reality bomb on him? Find out wth he was thinking? See if he’s as crazy arogant as he seems in his cover letter?

        This one will crack me up until I die.

    5. animaniactoo*

      Holy carp. I have a “high IQ”, and I have NEVER considered that as a thing that makes me a great contender for a position. I’ve been doing this all wrong. [shakes head sadly]

    6. AFRC*

      And having a high IQ does NOT make you a quick learner. Sometimes it makes you an overthinker and then you’re paralyzed by things that others learn quickly because they don’t worry about it or try to improve the process.

    7. Amber Rose*

      Best cover letter we ever got was from a guy who went on a paragraph long tangent about how he’d just arrived in town on his motorcycle with his girlfriend.

      Sheesh, some people.

  132. Paging the LW from the Singles Mixer WTF-ery Letter*

    Hi, we were promised an update from the person whose workplace hosted a singles mixer/people potluck/entry-fee-one-human party. I would really like to read this update. Whom did your coworker bring? Did they bring a flask? What happened? I’m dying of suspense here.

  133. Lou*

    Hi I am very confused as to why I am veing interviewed by manager for changing hours. He says I have to convince him. I work set shifts in the evening. The morning baker is leaving and I expressed interest in his hours as I would like to switch to morning shifts.

    I am most likely a star employee as head office know me. I constantly get things like employee of the month or mentions. He says he would rather someone knew. The morning bakers job is quite complex. I know it off by hand. Also I trained the morning baker who is leaving and have done it on my own countless times when we are short staffed. The morning baker was previously evening and I don’t I feel like he thinks I am not capable.

    2. katamia*

      Maybe he wants you to stay on evening hours because you’re so good, like he thinks that if he takes you off the evening shift then there might be problems there. If that’s the case, you might not be able to get the hours you want without moving to another company.

    3. ASJ*

      Have you flat-out asked him why he would prefer someone new? I mean, I don’t see anything wrong with just asking. “Boss, can you tell me why you prefer someone new for the morning bakers job? Is there a reason why you don’t want me transferring?” and then, based on what he says, you’ll be in a better position.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like it’s an internal interview. That is where an employee who already works for the company interviews for a different position. It’s pretty standard practice in a lot of places.

      We have no way to know for sure if you he thinks you can’t do the work. However, we do know that he is willing to talk with you about it, so that is good. Do just as he has asked, convince him. Line up all your reasons why you would be ideal for the job. Then explain it to him.

      It might feel strange to be doing this, but go ahead and do the interview anyway. I hope it goes well for you!

  134. Anonymous Educator*

    References question: I know hiring managers generally like recent references, but is it okay to have two recent references and then one really old reference if the really old reference is a former manager who currently works at the place you’re applying to?

  135. Nynaeve*

    So embarrassing…this week, I realized I accidentally spent hours re-grading a set of team assignments from last year instead of grading the current submissions. Of course, I realized it *after* I sent out the grades and got worried emails from students wondering why they hadn’t done as well as they expected. *headdesk*

    What’s the most boneheaded careless mistake you’ve made at work?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Prepped an artwork file to go for production and completely missed that a piece of artwork was missing (because it got buried beneath another one in the prep). It was a $35,000 mistake. Fortunately, it was not a discernible error unless you knew what it was supposed to look like, and the licensor was fine letting it go as it was, so we didn’t have to re-open the molds.

    2. ASJ*

      So far? The most recent one I can think of is when I threw out an original signature from a signed contract. I don’t know *what* I was thinking. I had to go back to the company, tail between my legs, and meekly ask them to re-send the document so we could re-sign. Not my best moment.

    3. Gadget Hackwrench*

      I didn’t SELECT before a DELETE in SQL. Wiped out an entire database with a misplaced parenthesis. Thank god for backups.

  136. BookCocoon*

    I’m trying to figure out whether to go talk to HR or our department director’s direct supervisor about how incompetent our director is.

    The background is: Almost everyone at our organization knows that this guy is not good at his job and also kind of an ass. It’s an open secret that no one likes him. One of my colleagues left for another job in the fall, and rather than doing a standard exit interview with the usual HR staffer, he was asked to do exit interviews with the head of HR and with our director’s supervisor (who’s relatively new to the organization). The head of HR apparently said, “We don’t actually know what he does all day.” Because all he appears to be doing with his time is attending meetings and working on his coursework for his doctorate. My colleague said it sounded like they were going to have his supervisor work with him.

    However, I don’t think anyone has filled the supervisor in on the actual extent of the problem. My colleague decided to confine his complaints to the most pressing ones, which were “He’s never here” and “He expects to be looped in on everything but he’s never here and then he gets mad when he doesn’t know things / doesn’t get a say in things.” Recently another colleague went to the supervisor with some specific complaints about our director, and the supervisor brought them back to the director, as if he was going to take the feedback maturely rather than just getting angry at my colleague, which is what happened.

    The other issue is that our director will be finishing his doctorate in another year and a half and is pretty clear that he plans to move on once he has his degree. I think everyone’s just kind of waiting it out at this point, but in the meantime we’re losing people who can’t deal with him anymore, and other people are worried that they’re not going to be able to last. Another colleague of mine, who works in a different office, was told by our director that he doesn’t stop by the main office enough, even though he’s literally here every day, sometimes multiple times a day. What the director meant, apparently, is that my colleague does not go to the back corner of the office to say “hi” to him every time he stops by the main office. Meanwhile some other people who work in a different office come by maybe once a week, if that, but my friend was told he comes by “the least of anyone” and now he’s worried that his job is on the line.

    I’m concerned that if I go to HR, they’re just going to 1) continue to rely on the director’s supervisor to fix things and/or 2) continue waiting it out until the director finishes his degree and leaves. I don’t have any one specific thing that’s egregious, just a long pattern that demonstrates that the director is petty, inconsistent, defensive, condescending, unaware of what’s going on in the department, and unable or unwilling to manage problem employees. I feel like it would be helpful for his supervisor to get the bigger picture, but I’m not sure it won’t come back to haunt me in some way.

    For what it’s worth, I have an absolutely golden reputation with both the director and most of the rest of the organization. That’s why I’m considering that I might be taken more seriously than most. But I don’t know if it’s worth taking the risk. What would you do?

    1. Imaginary Number*

      It sounds like you and your coworkers are making a lot of assumptions about what your department director does with his time. A lot of the issues you are hearing about are secondhand and don’t sound all that serious (your coworker was upset because the director mentioned not seeing him in the main office that much?) Add to that the fact that the director is not your direct supervisor. I would say going to HR is definitely premature at this point.

      “Because all he appears to be doing with his time is attending meetings and working on his coursework”

      If he’s gone all the time because he’s attending meetings, it’s very likely that’s because there’s a lot of meetings for him to attend. It doesn’t sound like you’re exactly sure where he is when he’s missing. I’ve had managers who haven’t been around to do their manager jobs because they’re being overtasked with high priority side projects from their supervisor. It happens.

      1. BookCocoon*

        He does attend a lot of meetings. Whenever I’m in a meeting with him, he sits in the back on his phone most of the time.

        The reason we’re all confused about what he’s actually doing is because he doesn’t seem to accomplish anything, even the things that are supposed to be part of his role. He will take weeks to get back to e-mails and talks frequently about how many unread e-mails he has in his inbox, as if to prove how busy he is. However, whenever he says he’ll take care of something for the department, 90% of the time what happens is that he dumps it on someone else at the last minute, who then has to scramble to do his work on top of their own. Even when someone e-mails him a simple question about our office’s work, he’ll usually forward it to me to answer because he legitimately does not know enough about how our office functions to answer the question. Also, whenever he’s printing something off on the office printer, it’s related to either his thesis or his homework. So I don’t think we’re making wild assumptions here.

        1. Imaginary Number*

          Still, none of this sounds as particularly HR-worthy. Can I ask how many people are between you and the directors, hierarchy-wise?

          1. BookCocoon*

            There’s one person between me and the director. Everyone else I mentioned reports (or reported) directly to him.

            I agree that there’s no one thing that seems worthy of going to HR. I think his supervisor should be aware of his overall incompetence at managing. But I don’t know if I risk more retaliation that way.

          2. BookCocoon*

            Previously I was his assistant for two years and worked directly for him. I had to go on anti-anxiety medications that I was only able to get off after I changed jobs to no longer be working directly for him.

      2. BookCocoon*

        I also want to reiterate that the comment about “we don’t know what he does all day, it seems like he just attends meetings and works on his coursework” came from the head of HR, speaking about herself, the director’s current supervisor, and his former supervisor. It’s not just those of us under him wondering what he’s contributing to the organization.

          1. BookCocoon*

            He’s a director, so his job functions are things like “Oversee office operations” “Supervise X employees” that don’t have clear metrics. We have a really stellar staff team in our office and he tends to take credit for our work, while the rest of the organization recognizes that we’re doing it in spite of him. A couple of years ago our office won an award and my colleague, whose spouse worked in the president’s office, said they had literally discussed if there was a way to award our team without awarding the director (there wasn’t).

    2. animaniactoo*

      To start, I would preface the conversation with “Director does not take feedback well and tends to take it out on people under him, so I feel that you haven’t been given a complete picture of the issues going on around Director. If you’re willing to do some checking before talking to him, and try to protect those under him as best you can while addressing this, I’m willing to talk more the issues that I/we are having.”

  137. Discordia Angel Jones*

    So I’ve been debating writing in with this comment for a while. To an Open Thread, I mean.

    I currently live in the UK (I am a British Citizen), and my (South American) husband is applying for PhDs in the US (hopefully? UT Dallas will take him). We are planning to go to the US on a J visa, which means I will be on a J2 visa and able to apply for the right to work over there (usually takes about 6 months, and in that 6 months, I can’t work). To be honest, I have been burning myself out supporting the both of us over here for the last 4 years, and am looking forward to being unemployed for a few months!

    I am just changing career into tech industry (I will have hopefully about a year of experience by the time we go, I have just finished my masters degree which I took alongside doing full time work in a different professional field), and am planning to keep my coding skills up by doing personal interest code and updating my GitHub during my time of no job.

    Any tips on how I should present my resume to employers in the US? Should I state what visa I am on and that I have the right to work? Should I explain my period of joblessness? How different is a resume from a UK CV (heh heh)?

    Does anyone know how the Dallas or Austin tech market is? These are the two places with labs most likely to take DH.

    1. Kyrielle*

      Pretty sure Dallas will be good by virtue of size; last I knew, Austin was a tech hot-bed.

      I would state the visa/right to work up front on the resume; in your cover letter or interviews you can mention how excited you are to get back to work now that you have completed the process to get the proper visa or something. I suspect a lot of people won’t be very concerned by it with an international move attached, but I don’t know for sure.

      I’m not very familiar with a UK CV, I will let others speak to differences.

      And best of luck to both of you for things to go well!

      1. Karen D*

        Agreed. Both Dallas and Austin are fun places to live, but I much preferred the culture in Austin.

        In Austin, I felt like I was on a smallish island; fantastic people and culture, but go too far in any direction and you were in, well, Texas. Dallas is much bigger and there’s lots more jobs,but you’re pretty much always in Texas there, lol. And while Texas is a grand and glorious place for some, it is not the place for me.

      2. Discordia Angel Jones*

        I agree! But the lab for DH’s field is better in Dallas, he’s in quite a specialised field.

        1. Muriel Heslop*

          I have lived both places and they are different and great. I went to UTD for grad school and my professors and education were incredible. The Dallas tech market is good – UTD is very well-respected and has a great network. Good luck!

    3. Spoonie*

      Presently in Dallas, actually used to work near UTD… The Austin vs. Dallas vibe is quite different.

      My friend is a developer and gets harassed quite frequently by recruiters, but he’s been in the industry for 20ish years. The problem with the Dallas area is that you have Dallas, and then there’s Richardson, and then there’s Irving…lots of jobs in lots of places. I would get settled in somewhere (TONS of apartment complexes nowadays; its ridiculous) and then scope out jobs in areas you’re willing to commute to.

  138. Argh!*

    Do you have a merit-based pay raise system tied to your performance evaluation? Does it make you want to kiss your boss’s arse? Our evaluations are 100% subjective – no performance metrics, numbers to reach, or anything documentable. This also means you can’t contest it if you’ve been treated unfairly. Nobody likes this, even the pets who get big raises. It sucks.

    1. AFRC*

      Yes to question #1 (but they’re literally like 1% extra for an exceptional bonus). No it doesn’t make me want to kiss up. However, I work for a public university, and we have a very documentation-heavy evaluation process. That’s not okay that everything is so subjective. But the bigger question is does your boss value ass-kissing over actually doing a good job? Because if they prefer the former to the latter, that’s a BIG problem.

      1. AFRC*

        I’m sorry – I meant 1% for an “exceptional” rating vs. a satisfactory rating – that takes effect a few months after performance evals happen.

      2. Argh!*

        Some bosses are “easy graders” and some have trouble ever saying anything nice about anything. This means equal merit doesn’t translate to equal merit pay. Mine is the latter type and my salary isn’t keeping up with inflation while other people (including my boss of course) are getting much bigger raises.

  139. Ruffingit*

    We have a situation at work where pushing back as a group may be an option, but I’m inclined to just start job searching and leave when the time is right. I can’t give many details here, but in general what are thoughts about when it’s worth pushing back and when it’s just better to leave (when you have another job)?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Pushing back is worth it when you have some realistic hope of a positive outcome. Otherwise, it’s a waste of your time, energy, and political capital.

    2. Newby*

      To me, there are two main considerations. First, would things get worse if you push back unsuccessfully? If not, there isn’t really a downside to pushing back and seeing if it gets better. Second, would you actually want to stay if this issue were resolved or would you still prefer to have a different job, it would just be less urgent. If you want to leave and this is just making you want to leave faster, you should probably be job searching. There is nothing that says you can’t do both.

    3. Wendy Darling*

      In addition to whether pushing back is likely to be successful, is this something where if you push back and this specific issue improves, things will actually be better? Or is this intolerable incident merely a symptom of something systemically wrong, so similar things will continue to crop up?

      Like, has your boss arbitrarily decided all your accrued vacation time is disappearing because they had a bonehead idea about how to fix a budget overrun and didn’t think it through, or did they decide that because they’re kind of assholes who don’t care about employees and are going to screw you over every time it benefits them in perpetuity?

  140. paul*

    After missing most of this week (flu-like illness but the flu test was negative) I’m debating cancelling a March vacation because I’m low on PTO. I really hope during the annual review for our PTO we change how accrual and roll over are handled. We can only roll over five days but accrual is month by month so for the first 2-3 months of the year no one wants to miss time.

    1. Chaordic One*

      This situation is not good, but may be something that you have to do if you don’t have PTO to cover it. Unless you have nonrefundable tickets or paid deposits on a hotel or something, I would probably reschedule the vacation if I were in your situation.

  141. Persephone Mulberry*

    I have a training/onboarding call (as in, I do the training) in about 45 minutes and I am dreading it. DREADING it. We run a web-based software and clients can either be affiliated with our main site or, if you’re out of our market area, you can lease the framework and build your own site. Obviously, customizing a website template takes at least a minimum of computer know-how or the willingness to pay someone (who is not us) to do it for you. The guy I’m calling today is an out-of-market client and he is so technologically backwards, I had to cut our first call short because he “couldn’t find [his] site on the Yahoo” so we couldn’t actually do anything. Fortunately my boss will be taking point on the call because I really don’t think I have enough patience for this customer.

  142. deets*

    I work for a small business, and Arya and I are the only two women at our location. I don’t officially supervise her but she does come to me for advice on professional norms (I’m older than her and this is her first job). Arya isn’t the type to wear makeup or spend time on her hair – which is totally fine! – but lately there have been 2-3 days per week where it’s very evident that she didn’t shower before coming to work. Today we were in a meeting with clients and a few people noticeably wrinkled their nose when she walked by. Obviously I don’t want to say “hey, you smell,” but I also don’t think I can ignore a persistent issue that clients are noticing. Help?

    1. paul*

      My boss at my first professional job told me that if someone could tell you hadn’t showered then you should have showered; I got the hint.

    2. ASJ*

      I think this is a hard talk to have, but frame it in your head that you will be doing her *such* a favor of letting her know now (because let’s face it, Arya never finding out [but having it impact her career] or someone telling her in a much crueler way are both worse). I found a letter to Alison detailing this subject and will post it separately in case it gets caught in the filter.

    3. Imaginary Number*

      Always be very careful when approaching the subject of personal hygiene. I think this is the one area where it’s okay to start with vague hints and build up to “hey, let’s have an uncomfortable conversation over coffee” if they’re not getting the hint. Reason being you don’t know that the cause of their BO is that they didn’t shower. It could be medical. It could be another reason (such as wearing unwashed clothes.)

      The first time I would make a non-directed comment about something in the area smelling. Make it sound like you’re assuming it’s coming from somewhere other than her, or even a person at all. “Did someone forget to throw out their leftovers yesterday? I smells something kind of funny.”

      When you do mention that you think they smell, I think it’s a good idea to avoid saying that they have poor personal hygiene in general. Nearly everyone would get defensive about that. It’s better to make it sound like you’re pointing out a one-time event. “Hey, I noticed in the meeting today that some people were commenting on a body odor smell and I noticed it as well.” Give them an opportunity to save face and think you only noticed it that one time.

      Only after both of those fail would I suggest to her face that she regularly doesn’t shower enough.

      Be careful with how many “hints” you give though. Too many and you risk sounding passive-aggressive.

  143. Rainforest Queen*

    Would like some opinions on whether I’m making a big deal about this, or not!

    I have a coworker who comes to work with absolutely no makeup on every morning. She goes to the bathroom as soon as she gets in every morning with her whole makeup bag and does the whole shebang – foundation, powder, eye shadow, blush, eyeliner, and mascara. We are a very small office and thus have just the one bathroom with one stall, and a small counter space with a sink. Every morning when she does her makeup, she spreads her makeup products all across the counter (mascara behind the sinks, eyeliner on one side of the sink, powder in front of the sink, etc.) I drink coffee before work each morning (and for obvious reasons) usually have to go to the bathroom soon after arriving at work. I almost feel like I’m invading her PERSONAL bathroom by coming in to do my business and wash my hands. I feel like the bathroom is off-limits for the other women in office because a.) you can’t get any privacy and b.) I feel rushed at the sink while washing my hands, because she just stands there waiting for me to finish so she can go back to her makeup ritual. Am I overreacting? Is it worth saying something? On a whole different issue – she doesn’t really start working until at least 8 AM every day (we all start at 7:30) because she’s busy doing her makeup. Couldn’t she just arrive to work early if she really wanted to do her makeup at work? Any thoughts are appreciated!

      1. Rainforest Queen*

        Unfortunately, my boss is consistently 20-30 minutes late to work, so no, she isn’t there TO know about it!

    2. Manders*

      That’s a weird thing for her to do, but I think all you can do in response is use the bathroom whenever you feel like it and take as much time at the sink as you need. I’d only bring it up with her supervisor if she has a butt-in-the-chair type of job where you can’t do some part of your own work if she isn’t available.

      1. Rainforest Queen*

        She definitely doesn’t have a butt-in-the-chair type of job (and my work and hers generally do not overlap), but she is an hourly employee, so it definitely adds up over time.

    3. Bigglesworth*

      Your co-worker is essentially stealing 30 minutes minimum of paid time & potential every day from your employer. It could also influence the company’s potential profit or just coverage for other employees. If nothing else, this is inconsiderate. I would talk to your boss.

      I might phrase it something like this, “Hey boss. I noticed that Jane has been using the bathroom to put on make-up in the morning and isn’t able to start work until X time. I wasn’t sure if you were aware and wanted to let you know in case you didn’t already.”

    4. Imaginary Number*

      Have you mentioned this to her at all? From what you said, it sounds like she has no problem standing aside while you wash your hands. She may be oblivious to the fact that sharing such a small space while using the bathroom makes other people uncomfortable.

      I would assume she’s going to the gym before work and finds it easier to do her makeup at the work bathroom instead of at the gym.

        1. Jessie*

          Absolutely, but you also said your boss is also 20-30 min late every day, so it may be on par for the office culture. It sounds like he doesn’t care (because he himself is late so he isn’t there to see it) and her lateness doesn’t impact you, so there’s no action for you to take. Except for asking her to not take up the bathroom every morning.

  144. Bigglesworth*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to negotiate scholarships with law schools? So far I have a free ride a few places and decent scholarships at others. I keep reading that you can negotiate scholarships with law schools, but I’m not quite sure how to proceed. Free would be ideal (I would love not having to have student loans), but need some help. Here’s are the schools and scholarships I have so far:

    George Mason – $25,000 Scholarship/ $40,737 Tuition for the first year & $25,351 for the 2L & 3L years
    Washington & Lee – $15,000 Scholarship/$46,240
    American – $20,000 Scholarship/$51,002 per year Tuition
    Univ. of Oklahoma – $9,000 Scholarship/$19,973 per year tuition
    Ok. City Univ. – Full Tuition Scholarship with the potential for book & living stipends
    Mich. State Univ. – $41,000 Scholarship/$39,353 Tuition
    Denver Univ. – $33,000 Scholarship/$44,530 Tuition

    I’m interested in pursuing international law and feel like a school near the D.C. area would be best suited for my future career plans, but I’m open to attending elsewhere if the school is good and not unreasonably priced.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated!

    2. blackcat*

      No advise on negotiating, but I encourage you to estimate cost of living into these calculations. You’ll be hard pressed to live on less than 20-25k/year even with roommates at American, but you could probably skimp by on 15 or less OK (my husband was a PhD student in the South. I have been one in the Northeast. My stipend is 180% of what is was, and it goes less far).

      That said, job placements post law school really do depend on where you go. So even if you would end up with less debt from place A than place B, you might be better off going to place B if you are more likely to get a job.

      (Extreme example: You can always pay off a $200+k Harvard Law degree, but may struggle to pay off a $30k degree from Regional U w/ 90% acceptance rate.)

    3. LawCat*

      I negotiated a scholarship by telling the school I wasn’t going to attend because the school was too expensive. They asked if I had competing scholarship offers. Nope, I did not, I said, but could they nonetheless do better? They did.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Interesting. I will definitely keep that in mind. I’ve heard that law schools are really trying to get more students and are willing to give more money to those accepted to get them in the door.

    4. Just Jess*

      Based on the info in this thread, Michigan State and Ok. City University have great offers. But maybe you really want American. Perhaps a good strategy would be to focus on getting better offers from Michigan State and American based on Ok. City’s. Are all of these only for the first year except for George Mason?

      I’d probably be able to negotiate better and keep things straight if I only focused on three or four of the universities. Congratulations on all of your offers!

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Thank you! All of these scholarships (including George Mason) for all three years. My top school right now between the scholarship and school reputation is George Mason. The scholarship as I understand it will stay the same all three years, it’s just that I’ll go from being an out of state resident to an in state resident with in state tuition. Does that make sense?

        I’ve heard good things about both MSU and OKC Law, but really want to go somewhere that is in an area where I am most likely to find a job after school.

    5. persimmon*

      For negotiating, it’s pretty simple. Call or email admissions at your favorite school and say, “I’d love to go to Favorite School, but Other School is offering me a better scholarship.” It helps if Other School is approximately similar or higher in rank.

      For choosing, legal hiring can be pretty regional, and it’s definitely more of a challenge to be searching where your school’s name won’t be as familiar–so probably right to favor DC if that’s where you want to work. Don’t forget to check out Law School Transparency, too–it’s easy-to-read data on employment outcomes, including where students most often end up working. One more thing: jobs involving international law are actually pretty rare and hard to get, especially if you aren’t at a top school, so worth thinking about whether you would still be happy as a lawyer if the international thing doesn’t work out.

  145. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

    Anyone have any advice on breaking out of (or being promoted out of an) an administrative assistant role? I fell into doing admin work since I graduated into the recession because it was the only type of work I could find. Now that it’s been several years, I’ve been able to leverage my experience into more and more prestigious/functional companies but I can’t seem to get anybody to consider me for anything other than administrative work.

    Admin work is incredibly valuable – I’m not saying that I think I’m “better” than it. It’s just not what I want to do long-term. I’ve manuevered myself into the department that I’d like to be in long-term, and as the admin for this dept I do have specialied or dept. focused (non-typically-admin) projects, but I’m just not sure how to get myself promoted to an anlyst role (most jr. level role within this type of dept.). It’s so frustrating to see recent grads hired into these types of roles while I’m just stagnating.

    The biggest part of my problem is that I’m a good admin. Maybe a very good admin, but I’m not a rock star admin. I’m not very well suited to this type of work, and frankly I don’t particularly enjoy it (I know, I know that sounds whiney, but I feel stuck and powerless and as much as I try to stay motivated and focused, its hard). That said – I do rock the specialized or dept focused projects, which is why I REALLY want to move in that direction. I just don’t know how to ask for a promotion when I know I’m not 110% rocking my current role (and that it’s basically impossible for me to 110% rock this type of role, because I’m not well suited for it). I’ve given it a lot of thought and I really think I’d be MUCH better suited for an analyst type role. I just wish I could get someone else to see that.

    1. Bigglesworth*

      Have you talked to your boss about moving out of the admin role and into a role that is more suited to your interests and strengths? If not, I would start there. Tell your boss that you would love to move into an analyst role and that you really see yourself succeeding in that position and explain how your strengths would be beneficial to an analyst role. It might be that they give you more of those projects or your boss helps you move over or whatever.

      I’m in a similar position. Although I’m a decent admin, I really don’t like (and am starting to hate) what I do. Fingers crossed you get into a new position soon!

    2. Taylor Swift*

      You do not have to be at more than 100% to ask for a promotion. You are good at your job and that is good enough.

  146. Paea*

    My coworker is driving me insane with how often she feigns alarm, saying “ARE YOU OKAY” or “WHAT’S WRONG” or “Are you sick/upset/etc” when I am perfectly fine, I am perfectly healthy, I am not a person with resting b* face. She is notoriously passive aggressive. I am senior to her (though not her manager). I don’t even respond anymore. I want to give her the finger every time, but honestly, I mean, WTF.

    1. ASJ*

      Time to go with a perfectly blank stare and say, “Yes. I’m fine. But I’ve noticed how often you ask me if something is wrong. Can we just assume from now on that I’m okay unless I tell you otherwise?”

    2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I’m evil. I would start turning it around on her.
      Her: “OMG, ARE YOU OKAY?”
      You: “You seem very anxious recently. Do you need a moment to compose yourself before we finish our meeting?”

      Her: “ARE YOU SICK?”
      You: “You seem very preoccupied with sickness recently? It’s totally okay for you to take a sick day if you need one.”

  147. A little concerned*

    Probably way too late to get any input, but since this just happened again a minute ago, I thought I would try posting. One of my duties is to compare orders that have been entered in the system with the original, then initial and date them before passing them off for the next step of processing. I then get them again later to note in the system that they are going to the warehouse to be fulfilled. The problem is that I keep noticing orders that someone has cut out my initial and date and stapled to another order. It’s likely that it was just something insignificant that they changed and cut it from a new copy of the same order, but they are essentially saying that I approved this copy, when I did not.

    To date I haven’t said anything, and have just been un-stapling the little cut out with my signature and sending it to the warehouse unsigned, but should I be saying something? We do send a lot of orders without a signature so its not like these would stand out.

    1. Paea*

      Oh God yes, my gut instinct would be to say something. But I don’t have warehouse experience, so maybe I’m overreacting.

    2. ASJ*

      I would totally say something. I would not be okay with someone implying/suggesting I approved something when I didn’t. To me, there’s too much potential for something to go wrong and for your butt to be on the line.

      1. ZVA*

        Yes, exactly. It could be that this isn’t a big deal—but you don’t have enough info to make that call. I’d tell someone above you, just to be safe.

    3. Newby*

      That seems like a big issue. They are saying that you double checked an order when you did not. If it doesn’t actually need your initials to proceed, tell them that. If they understand that essentially forging your initials does not have a benefit, they are likely to stop. Do you know who is doing it? If so, you could just talk to them directly. If not, talk to your boss and see if it would be possible to make an announcement that this is not how it is supposed to work.

      1. A little concerned*

        I have an idea who it is, only because it just started happening and we have someone relatively new, but of course I have no way to prove it. And I am not sure I would call it forging, because they are making it very obvious that it was cut from something else and stuck to this order.

        In any case, who would I talk to? I don’t have a real manager, so the office manager/HR person is the one I go to for most things, but I can go to the customer service supervisor.

        1. Newby*

          If the customer service manager is the manager of whoever is doing this, I would go to them. You aren’t trying to get anyone in trouble, just trying to get them to follow the correct process. If there is a new person, they may not even know that what they are doing is causing a problem and the boss probably has no idea it is happening at all. Where I work, we get notifications all the time that basically say “Please make sure to do XYZ when completing this type of task instead of XBZ.” No one gets in trouble or is called out directly, but everyone is aware of what they should be doing.

    4. Melody Pond*

      Stuff like this is how fraud happens – yes, that’s an extreme example, but it’s what’s actually happening. It sounds like someone is falsifying records, and if they’re willing to do that, they might be willing to do enough falsifying to be able to steal from the company.

      Please do raise your concerns, immediately.

    5. animaniactoo*

      I would say that the next time it happens, you should bring it to the supervisor of the department who sent it to you. Note that you’ve just been unstapling it because you thought it was an odd one off or two, and sending it to the warehouse without your signature, but it’s continued and somebody in their department seems to be unclear about the procedure for sending the orders.

    6. NW Mossy*

      Yes, say something. Processes like this exist because they’re a key part of risk management for the organization. If they’re routinely being subverted, it increases risk in several ways. Besides the direct benefit of preventing errors that cost the company money, they also serve as an important audit control that the company may need for other reasons, such as ensuring compliance with the terms of contracts the company has with other entities.

      You can frame it like this: “I’ve noticed that I’ve started seeing this cut-and-paste activity, and it concerns me because that’s not how the process works. I’m not sure why it’s happening, but we should look into it. It might be a training issue with a new person or maybe a sign that we need to revisit this process to remove the incentive to go around it, but I don’t want to just let it lie.”

    7. Not So NewReader*

      This is still going on?
      No, it’s not insignificant.
      It needs to be reported to your boss and the boss of the other department- STAT.

      Yes, yes, yes, you absolutely MUST say something, ASAP.

      If I have scared the heck out of you, I am glad. Do not let other people apply your initials or signature to anything ever. Never.

      Come back next Friday, tell us about how reporting it went. Don’t do another week of this.

  148. Deep Undercover*

    POCs: how have you handled discriminatory/racially offensive comments made by higher-ups?

    My ED recently made a comment that really left no room for interpretation. I am offended, and a part of me feels like I should have said something the moment it happened, but I was too stunned to say anything.

    1. ZVA*

      I don’t have any experience with which to advise you… just wanted to say I’m sorry this happened. I’m often stunned into silence by inappropriate or offensive remarks, so I totally understand—don’t feel like there’s anything you should have done differently.

    2. Just Jess*

      It’s not on you to say something the moment it happens. ED is in a position of higher authority and I’m assuming you don’t have any kind of relationship outside of work. Is there a way to report the incident so that ED gets corrective feedback? A decent Chief Operating Officer or HR Director who reports to the ED would still want to be responsive.

      I understand that you may not want to do this if you were the only one who heard the comment and your report would not be anonymous.

    3. Anono-me*

      Even if you decide not to say anything now, please document what happened and keep it in you home files.

      Unfortunately this is probably not a unique event.

  149. Wendy Darling*

    I went to an in-person interview yesterday for a longish term temporary position. The temp agency had sold it to me as a data analysis job that would give me lots of exposure at a highly desirable company. Thank goodness the hiring manager from said company was there for the in-person interview, because she was able to tell me (over the agency rep’s objections) that this was a data entry role that would be working exclusively with other temps and would have no exposure to anyone who actually worked for said highly desirable company.

    I’m still at a loss re: why they would do that. Did they think I was going to take a 12-18 month contract that would be a major career setback to be polite???

    1. ASJ*

      That sounds super sketchy – especially since the rep was objecting while you were hearing the truth! I’m not sure I’d want to work with that agency anymore.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        I don’t think I do either. And they should know better because there’s about 20 similar agencies in the area and I’m already in contact with a halfdozen of them, so it’s not like I would be missing out in particular — there’s plenty more where they came from!

    2. Chaordic One*

      It certainly speaks poorly of the temp agency, and obviously the company hiring manager knows it, too. Yes, they probably did think you were going to take a 12-18 month contract that would be a career setback. Sadly, there are still a lot of desperate unemployed people who would do so, as well as those who are easily cowed.

      I’m glad you are not easily cowed.

  150. Escapee*

    This is my first-ever open-thread post, and I’m using a different handle from the one I’ve posted under before. I would really appreciate some of this wise crowd’s thoughts on a situation. I’m a legal secretary with a well-respected small law firm. Although my firm is a good one, my particular boss, Lumberg, is a secretive micromanager who lies. The great news is I’m finishing up a paralegal certificate program and have accepted a paralegal role back with a big firm where I worked a few years ago.

    But I still have one week left on my notice period at the old job, and I’m not sure how I’m going to get through it. Lumberg took my resignation hard and is behaving childishly and borderline aggressively. He had been planning to add paralegal duties to my secretarial position (with no more pay and no improvement in my awful working conditions), and I think he’s especially irritated that he won’t be getting that two-for-one deal after all.

    When I gave notice a week and a half ago, Lumberg tried to counter-offer. I shut that down firmly but (probably too) kindly. At my request, he agreed to keep my resignation on a need-to-know basis until next week (I don’t like long goodbyes). He has been out of town all this week, but on Tuesday, I learned he was already spreading word of my impending departure. Worse, he was saying that this Friday (today) was my last day, rather than Friday of next week. I quickly got out in front of that, speaking personally with the people I wanted to hear it from me first. I also emailed him to clarify my last day, and we agreed it is next Friday. He said nothing to indicate that he’d been mistaken in giving out the wrong date, so I assume he did it on purpose — which is 100% in-character for him.

    So now I don’t know who exactly knows I’ve resigned and who doesn’t, and what day those who do know think will be my last. (I’m not really the “firm-wide email” type.) Also, while Lumberg has been out of town, he has been sending me emails “reminding” me to do things I’ve already done and telling me how to do things he well knows I need no instruction in. I don’t react well to that kind of treatment, and he knows it — which, obviously, is why he’s doing it. Now he is assigning my work to another staffer, and I then have to explain to them how to do it. (And it’s not a baton-passing. The person getting the assignments is not anyone who would perform my job functions, except in a true emergency.)

    Next week, he’ll be back in the office, and if he continues this behavior, things are going to get really awkward. I can tolerate some awkwardness (this job has been great training for it), but I have limits. Being marginalized and treated like an idiot is my Achilles’ heel. It’s possible he’ll behave better when we’re in the same room and he has to look me in the eye. But there’s also the chance he’ll stay in his office with the door shut, communicate with me entirely via snide emails, and jerk all my work out from under me.

    My question: What would it take for me to be justified in cutting my notice short next week? If I made Tuesday my last day, that would still be a 2-week notice. They haven’t even started searching for my replacement, and I’ve already created an awesome packet for whomever is eventually hired. Ideally, I’d like to preserve Lumberg as a future reference, although, given his honesty problem, I know I couldn’t count on that in any event. Aside from the financial implications of more time off than I’d planned (which I can easily absorb), I’m not sure I see a downside to refusing to tolerate a second week filled with even more BS than the first one.

    Thoughts, anyone?

    1. Dzhymm, BfD*

      I’d say that in such an environment you definitely should get out as quickly as possible! Assuming that you’re working in the U.S. in an “employment at will” state, two weeks notice is a *courtesy*, not a legal requirement. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere: at my previous job I gave two weeks notice. One time my boss started getting difficult in a meeting. If he hadn’t backed down I was prepared to say “Would you prefer that my resignation be effective immediately?” Maybe you should say the same thing to Lumberg. Just make sure you’ve cleaned out your desk first…

      1. Escapee*

        I agree and would have no problem saying just that. (He’d probably back down if I did.) Cleaning out my desk quickly could be problematic, though, as my monitor, keyboard, and mouse are all my own personal property. (The peripherals they provide here are shameful. The monitors are so awful that even swapping mine out for one of theirs a day or two ahead of time is unthinkable.) I think if I do decide to cut it short, I have to just do it and not give him a choice. That way, I can pack everything up beforehand and have it safely in my car before I speak. Thanks for your feedback!

        1. Wendy Darling*

          Would it make sense to pack up your personal stuff and go back to using the crap provided by IT for the remainder of your notice period? Just say you’re slowly moving stuff back home so you don’t have to pack up a ton on your last day? If you have access after hours you could also drop in before or after most people are there and collect your stuff — I did this to avoid packing up my desk with an audience when I was laid off. (In that case everyone was super nice about it but I got upset when people felt sorry for me, so I wanted to avoid it!)

    2. Colette*

      This actually seems mildly annoying at most. You call him a micromanager, but you’re putting a lot of effort into trying to control who knows you’re leaving as well as what they know about it, and complaining because no you don’t like the way he’s assigning you work, even though that’s his job and his preference as your boss wins if you have different preferences.

      Hang in there, remind yourself that it’s just another week, and stay until Friday.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I agree that you are putting a lot of control on your exit information.
        Of course he sees that as a point he can use against you.

        Send out an email to a few key people and ask them to pass the word on. This will take away his power over you on this matter.
        Think of it this way, you wanted it kept secret because you don’t like good byes. I can’t think how this is making it easier for you in any way. Just do the good byes. Tell the nice people you enjoyed working with them and wish them the best. Tell the not-so-nice people that you wish them the best. Done.

        Next, ask a couple select people if they would be references for you in the future. With this step completed you no longer need him as a reference. He wasn’t going to be a reference for you anyway.

        If you truly can’t hack it then leave. Go in early, pack your stuff and then give him the news. He may be a lulu of a boss but he has you stressed to the core. Consider how nice it would be to have a couple of empty days before starting a new job. Congrats on your new place.

    3. Observer*

      The real issue is not Lumberg, as you can’t count on him anyway, but the others in the office. Try not to cut your notice short, as annoyed as you are and as much of a jerk he is being. But, do make sure that people know that you gave notice and that your notice period is next Friday. Also, let a few people know about the materials you prepared. You want to make sure that people remember you positively despite the fact that you boss is likely to bad mouth you.

  151. An American Abroad*

    I’m an American who married a dual citizen (America and Canada) and we are currently living in Canada. The wedding is over, we are settled in and everything is in order so I have been looking for a job.

    The first job I interviewed for I was offered after a single 25 minute interview (no phone screen or second interview). It was for a management position. The whole thing was a red flag so I turned it down and kept looking. I’ve since had 2 more offers. One was a management position and the other was and step below management. These aren’t entry level jobs, I’m applying in the same field I worked in when I lived in America and I have 15 years of experience. Both of these offers were also given after a single interview of between 25 and 30 minutes.

    My wife and her family here all say that this is normal and things like phone screens, interview lunches and multiple interviews don’t happen, even though they are industry standard in America. All 3 of the offers were from larger and more well known companies. It still feels like a red flag to me. None of them allowed for questions at the end of the interview and no one asked for my salary history. The other weird thing is that I got feedback when I first started applying that my resume was incomplete because it was missing an objective and a note about references. I added these after getting the same feedback multiple times and I didn’t get any interviews until I did.

    I know it’s a different country but I didn’t think it would be that different when the field is the same and these companies have offices in both Canada and America. I’m trying to tell myself that this is what’s normal here but it’s still hard. My wife even tells me it’s normal.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Canadian here.

      Yep. Normal. Except for the objective thing, that has never come up for me before and I don’t have one. I’ve only ever had multiple interviews once, at a smaller family owned store where they were having trouble choosing between me and one other person.

    2. Dang*

      I once received a job offer after a 15 minute phone interview. I also considered it a red flag.

      And the reason I think that is because interviewing is supposed to be a 2-way street. You spend a significant percentage of your life at work so you should have the opportunity to at least ask some questions. I would be turned off/alarmed if I were you also, even if it’s the norm.

    3. ASJ*

      The objective thing is weird (but I guess that could depend on your industry) and so is the not allowing for questions thing. Otherwise, sounds normal to me. But if you’re unsure, you can always turn the offers down.

    4. LQ*

      Even though they have offices in both places it likely isn’t that common for people to work in both offices, or for practices to seep from one to another, especially if it would likely annoy/frustrate/turn off the best candidates in the country they are hiring for.

      Look at the other side. If you were used to 30 minute interviews and suddenly someone wanted you to do a 20 minute phone call, then an hour and a half interview, then a half day tour/interview with a bunch of people, you might think you were getting taken advantage of. (Or at least that’s what my Canadian friend was furious about when I had a set of interviews like that.) I think you have to do a little listening to the Romans when you are in Rome.

      And if no one ever asked my salary history again I’d be thrilled to bits and pieces.

    5. Colette*

      I’ve never been asked my salary history, and I’ve definitely gotten good jobs after one interview, although it seems like moremplaces are doing two interviews now. I’ve never had a phone screen.

      On the other hand, my resume does not have an objective or a statement about references, and I’ve almost always been asked if I had any questions.

      I’ve spent my career in Canada, mostly in eastern Ontario.

  152. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    Next week we have a meeting scheduled where the subject is “True Colors – Understanding Your Color Type”. Since I don’t work in fashion or design, should I assume this is one of those irritating understanding-your-personality types of exercises?

    2. LQ*

      Yup, and if you say that they’ll be like oh you’re such an analytical Blue! (or driver/red depending on who is saying it) Which is the most infuriating part of it. So I can’t object to your thing because of your thing? Awfully convenient isn’t it!

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Oh, yeah, and as long as you work there you’ll have people saying “of course you do that, you’re magenta!” My sympathies.

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      The senior and executive leadership in my department apparently did this at their offsite last summer. We heard about it when they returned but nary a peep since. May you be so lucky!

    5. paul*

      I hate those things. None of the common personality crap actually gets good reviews from real pyschologist these days

  153. KR*

    I talked to a manager for a position last week in person who said he would “definitely be calling me this week for an interview.” It’s Friday and he hasn’t called me. I’ve checked and double-checked my email and missed calls – nothing. Should I call him today? Monday? At all?

  154. Mockingjay*

    Quick response needed:

    How do I convince my Doc Team Lead (Fred) that basic documents should be done in MS Word, not Adobe Framemaker?

    Fred and one other Tech Writer (Barney) use Framemaker for everything, mainly because no one else can use it and their work cannot be challenged. Framemaker is laborious to use, and prevents quick turnaround of simple document. The technical team members hate it – they want to be able to edit a draft document and add their input.

    This morning I converted a 40-page report from a Framemaker PDF to Word. It took Barney three weeks to do a draft report in Framemaker. (The report is now LATE.) I reformatted and edited it in under 3 hours. This included resizing figures consistently and formatting tables.

    I recommended to Fred that we use Word more (especially since it is required for the contract deliverables). Fred replied that I can put in a process improvement request. Dude, you are the team lead. Take ownership!

    1. Imaginary Number*

      I don’t know Framemaker, but Microsoft Word can really suck for technical writing. The equation editor is clunky and the automatic citations don’t work as well as other software. What’s holding back the rest of the team from learning Framemaker?

      1. Imaginary Number*

        I looked it up and it looks like it’s similar to LaTeX, which is what I prefer over Word for technical reports.

        1. Emi.*

          Unless it’s mostly equations, I’d use RMarkdown with MikTeX instead of LaTeX. It find it easier to edit, and it’s easier to format the parts that aren’t equations. But I’d also send people the .Rmd instead of just the PDF, jeez.

      2. Spoonie*

        Oh +1 for Word sucking for tech writing. My boss is requesting that I use Word for converting an 800+ page manual into something “usable”…

      3. Mockingjay*

        The contract specifies MS Word. Also, these are basic text documents with occasional tables and figures inserted. They do not require complex formatting.

        We do have one document type which does require the type of formatting that Framemaker does. All the others are really simple items that should be able to be processed quickly.

        (Truth be told, they are not that good at Framemaker. I have yet to see anything close to a standard 1″ margin using Framemaker. But they don’t know how to do that kind of page setup in Word, either.)

          1. Mockingjay*

            I should have said, we can deliver in PDF, but source documents in Word need to be available for most items.

            1. Lord of the Ringbinders*

              Then I’d send it back to them and say you need it in Word and not accept any other format.

    2. fposte*

      Uchh. That is seriously dumb. Framemaker? Geez.

      But if you’re part of the team Fred leads, you have limited leverage, so I’d start by putting in a process improvement request. What does your manager think of this?

    3. Newby*

      Is Fred higher or lower than you in the team hierarchy? If he is higher, there is nothing you can do at this point. If he is lower, you can explicitly state that you need all documents turned into you to be (.doc) documents. If you do not have the ability to make it mandatory and it is causing a lot of problems, you can bring the problem to your boss to see if everyone else needs to learn Framemaker or if your boss will step in to get Fred and Barney to use Word.

      1. Mockingjay*

        I nominally report to Fred for work assignments; he parcels out documents among a pool of writers. Recently I got my own project and run the deliverables there, but am still on call for general support. Fred has been with the overall program for many years and was recently given the doc lead assignment when another person left. I am newer but outrank him in title and experience. We report to the same manager, who is rather hands off.

        I may just let this go, since I can do things my own way in my little pond. I’m frustrated though; this is the third hot item I’ve had to help out with this week alone (all the while working my own stuff). I produced over 30 deliverables last month; Fred did about 10, Barney a whopping 4. I did try to mention my unavailability; I was told overtime was authorized. Whoopee. I already worked about 50 hours this week on my own project. I don’t want to work extra hours on top of those because of someone else’s incompetence. (I’m tired today.)

        Fred is hiring more tech writers; when they are onboard I will be relieved from the rota. I suppose I can hang in a little longer.

        1. Newby*

          That sucks. We had someone senior where I work that liked a particular program even when there was another better one and he was senior enough that the rest of us had to go along with it. It made it harder on everyone else, but there was nothing we could do.

  155. ffft*

    Multi-pronged question here:
    I’ve been unsatisfied with my job for a long time (think over a year, give or take some months); management is very bad (people who quit are accused of disloyalty and cursed at, there’s no system for reviews, the boss thinks everyone’s out to screw him over and holds personal grudges which he brings up later if you express concern about something, they assume you have no life outside of work and can come in on the weekends [had one incident where my friend was in the hospital on a Sunday and my boss made me come in to work for an imaginary deadline that wasn’t even important], I could go on…). Plus for the past few months, I also don’t have enough work to do so I’m bored basically all of the time. I work from home most of the time as well, which is driving me batty. And what I was hired for is not what I’m doing, and is not at all what I want to do ultimately in my career.
    Suffice to say I’ve been looking for a new job but so far haven’t had much luck. I did randomly get one interview, but afterwards although I thought it went very well — we hit it off and they said they’d give me a trial task to complete to see how I could work with them — I never heard from them again. This was about a month ago, so I’m just assuming I didn’t get it (I did follow up, no response to that either. Radio silence.) I’ve applied to about twelve-ish jobs since then but the combination of not having anything to do except obsess about job applications + very little human contact is making me go a little insane.
    So without further ado, QUESTION ONE: I know the difference between job-applicant time and hiring time is *very* different (read enough AAM for that!), but I was wondering about other people’s actual experiences, specifically how much time passed before sending your resumes into the ether and getting an interview (/phone screen)? I googled around a bit but everything was very vague and I think hearing from others might make me feel better about hearing nothing so I can move on. [I know for 90% of jobs I will probably hear nothing, I’m just asking about those where you did hear back with a positive response.]
    And QUESTION TWO: Additionally, right now I’m applying to things I think I’d enjoy and be good at and am qualified for (I should also mention I’m an excellent employee when I have things to do — not just making that up, have been told by multiple employers including CrazyBoss in his sane moments) but I have a weird problem in that I think I’m pretty overpaid – like $20k above average for my profession. So far this hasn’t come up but I’m very worried it’ll bump me out of the running for anything I do get an interview for. I don’t have any benefits at CurrentJob besides PTO, so how much would you think something like medical insurance/401k etc would offset this discrepancy in salary? What’s a good way to address this in interviews? CurrentJob is so toxic that I’m desperate to get out but I don’t want to shoot off my own foot if I don’t have to…

    2. Bangs Not Fringe*

      I think the time frame is so varied from job to job. Some companies are quick, some are slow, some fields and companies have a lot more red tape to wade through…

      I can give an example but it’s only one data point. For my SO’s current position, he applied in August, had a telephone interview in November, had an in person interview the following January, accepted the position in March, and started in late April. The whole process spanned 8 months.

      Or in my current position,

      Also with regard to salary, I would first start by not sharing your current salary unless required. Even on applications, I will leave that blank unless I cannot continue or submit without filling it out. And if they ask about your current salary, you can redirect. I’m sure people have good advice on how to do that. And in my experience good benefits can definitely compensate for a loss of salary.

  156. Confused Employee*

    What is the best way to tell your boss that his inconsistent behavior is deflating to this staff? Example, one employee achieves a work milestone (years of service, classes completed) and the boss has food delivered or flowers. Another employee shortly afterwards has the EXACT same work milestone and it’s not acknowledged at ALL. I was the one that informed him of both so of course I feel bad for the second employee that received NOTHING. This is just one example of many. He will praise some employees and not others. I want to think he is not playing favorites but it’s just the mood he is in at the time. BTW, I’m not a manager but mentioned it to our manager and she does nothing.

    1. fposte*

      In general, this isn’t something you can fix from underneath unless you want to take it over. “Boss, it seems like it was helpful to you for me to notify you about Lavinia’s and Percival’s milestones but that it’s easy for stuff like that to fall off your radar. The acknowledgment means a lot to employees–would it be okay for me to take over arranging something for people?”

  157. Hoorah*

    One of our staff was scheduled to go on a 2 week holiday. On the second day of his holiday he emailed to say he needed to be paid sick leave instead of using up his annual leave, submitting a medical certificate.

    I explained to him we couldn’t substitute annual leave into sick leave. If you get sick on holiday, it’s rotten luck.

    I received multiple emails from him threatening legal action, accusing me of causing him suicidal thoughts for denying him his rightful sick leave, demanding that the company pay his psychiatric treatments, etc.

    This is pretty much in character with how he generally behaves. I know we’re within our legal right to deny him his sick leave request, which occurred during a planned paid holiday. I’m now worried though he will hire a lawyer and try to make a claim on emotional distress. Our employment laws strongly side with the employee.

    Does anyone have experience dealing with hysterical/angry staff and have any and advice? He’s insisting on communicating by email only.

    1. ASJ*

      That’s how generally behaves?! Wow. I don’t have much advice except to suggest that once this blows over, you let him go.

    2. Confused*

      Why is that your policy? Seems weirdly stringent. Your employee had a medical crisis and has certification from a doctor that that’s what happened so why deduct it from his vaca time instead of sick time? Presumably, your company offers the benefit of vacation time to rest/recharge/actually vacation and your sick time benefit is to cover all instances of illness.

      1. Hoorah*

        That’s not our policy, it’s law.

        Also I am willing to bet my left pinkie this is not a genuine sick leave.

        Would be happy to give it as sick leave to someone who does not behave outrageously. But in this case I don’t want to offer anything beyond our legal requirements.

      2. Bangs Not Fringe*

        If I got ill before a two week holiday, I would probably be quite mad that I couldn’t reschedule a holiday/vacation/trip/whatever at another date and use the actual sick leave I have accrued. I agree that this policy seems weirdly stringent. I also wonder, is it policy to require the submission of evidence to prove illness? In this case, I really think this policy of not allowing the employee to move their dates when they are ill is a poor one. And if not, you will simply encourage those to whom this happens to have some fake-sick days down the road.

        None of this excuses his subsequent behavior, but I do find the policy unfortunate. Would the policy be carried out equally across the board with other, less volatile/better employees?

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          It sounds like he got sick while on his vacation, not before it. So he wasn’t trying to reschedule his time off, he just wanted to re-categorize it to sick leave instead of vacation time. (I’m not saying the company is doing the right thing, just that it’s not as you’re describing.)

          1. fposte*

            And I think it’s pretty common that places don’t let you recategorize vacation leave as sick leave–in genetic terms, vacation is dominant and sick leave recessive :-).

            1. zora*

              Yes. This has been the policy at every place I’ve ever worked. Once you’ve left on vacation, that’s vacation time. However, one time I got sick while i was out of town, and it delayed my travel back home. So, for those two days I could use my sick leave. But not the days that were part of the approved vacation.

          2. Bangs Not Fringe*

            Yes, I’m sorry. On day two of a ten day holiday. You are correct.

            My only gripe here is that for many vacation time is one of the most valued benefits, so if employers can’t be flexible when life happens that can create resentment.

            At the end of the day, if this is a policy then an employee with behavioral and/or performance issues can’t really expect exceptions to me made. I assume and hope the policy is written and known to employees.

        2. Hoorah*

          Just to reiterate, this is not a company policy. By *law* he is not entitled to sick leave if he has already started his annual leave.

          Of course I could approve his request to convert his annual leave into sick leave so he can take a paid holiday at another time. But due to his general behaviour I am not inclined to help. That’s kind of what happens when you behave like a jerk.

    3. Temperance*

      I’m guessing that he’s not a winner otherwise, so why keep him around? He sounds at best volatile and at worst dangerously off the rails.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I’d bump this one up to my boss, if it were me.
      Any time you think a lawyer might get involved, make sure you are not walking alone, loop other people in pronto.

      I bet he’s insisting on email, he’s probably away from his landline phone if he even has one and his cell is out of range. That leaves email.
      Hmmm. There is a way you can get the path of an email, I think. If you can compare that path to his normal email path you might have a better idea of what to do. I think I remember playing around with this a while ago.

    5. Observer*

      Communicating by email may work out well for you. As long as you are very careful to stick to what is actually policy / law and stay away from anything personal, there won’t be anything he can use against you. On the other hand if he gets ugly, you have it in writing, so he can’t deny what he said.

      I also agree that you should absolutely loop your boss in.

  158. My Boat Has No Name*

    Last week, after finally having enough and one incident too many, I made a complaint to my supervisor regarding an ongoing history of harassment from a colleague. This included but was not limited to unwanted comments about sex/sexual health; unsolicited and very inappropriate advice about my marriage, my health, whether or not I will be having children, etc.; and unwanted touches, not particularly sexual in nature but when I had clearly demonstrated discomfort (i.e. backing away, jumping back). I subsequently met with my supervisor and another manager to discuss my complaint where they both seemed very concerned with the behavior, told me it would be dealt with and that the person would be reprimanded, etc. Later an email was sent to my contractor (the person is an employee and I am not), which stated that they had ascertained that the “unwelcomed comments” had all been a result of “a cultural misunderstanding”.

    No. No no no no.

    This person has worked at my organization for more than 20 years. Hasn’t the time for cultural misunderstandings passed? Also how does a cultural misunderstanding account for numerous incidents over a half year period that spread across all sorts of topics and contexts?

    I am at a loss and supremely frustrated the read this communication. I had and have no intention of going after this person. I want the actions to stop and I don’t want them to happen to anyone else either (inappropriate things have been said to colleagues but generally not with the severity or frequency with which this person approaches me). However, allowing what I found to be harassing behaviors (a pattern of offensive, inappropriate and ultimately intimidating behaviors, that created a hostile work environment for me) to be explained away as a cultural misunderstanding is beyond comprehension.

    Any advice? Next steps? Do I let it go? Do I push back? I can’t imagine reintegrating into my work group as things stand.

    1. ASJ*

      Does the company have an HR department? I’m not sure they’d be so willing to let things go just because of a “cultural misunderstanding”. And seriously. That’s not an explanation in my book, it’s an excuse.

      1. My Boat Has No Name*

        An HR person did call me just now (I believe they were contacted by my contractor) and they asked me what I told my supervisor that I wanted to happen as a result of this and what I wanted now. First, I felt a little bullied by his questioning. But the reality of the situation and what I told him is that I want the company to follow their policy on this matter. I am a contractor, it’s not my job to know or determine what should happen once I report harassment. That’s why they have a policy, I simply want them to respond according to it. He did not seem pleased with my response. I also asked them what their policy was and he would not answer me.

      2. My Boat Has No Name*

        Yes, there is an HR. And someone from there has just called me (after being contacted by my contractor). The conversation was uncomfortable and I felt a bit bullied. The person persistently asked me what I wanted to happen from this situation, what I wanted the result to be.

        I told them that I wanted them to follow their policies on this issue. That it’s not my responsibility to determine the course of action after I report harassment (I don’t have any training, never mind authority). It is their responsibility to have a policy and respond accordingly. They didn’t seem pleased with this answer. I’m not sure what they want me to say?

        He also refrained from answering when I asked what the policies dictate as a course of action for these instances.

        1. Observer*

          Why didn’t you just tel him straight out “I want this behavior to stop.” It’s a perfectly legitimate and reasonable response. And it’s the kind of thing that’s hard to argue against.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Since what you want is for this to stop, I’d respond to whoever sent that email (I assume it was appropriate for you to see it?) saying that you don’t care WHY the inappropriate behavior is happening, all you care is that it stops, and ask if it has been made clear to the guilty party that they are not allowed to A, B, or C, even if it seems “culturally appropriate” to them.

      1. My Boat Has No Name*

        Good point. And yes, I was copied on the email from the original sender.

        I guess I just continue to be irked that this could continue to be an excuse for them. Not necessarily directed at me but to anyone. Like, “Sorry, I don’t understand personal boundaries or what is or isn’t appropriate to discuss at work but it’s okay because I come from a different culture. (Never mind that I’ve had two decades to learn the professional norms, expectations, and rules of this country and this organization in particular.)”

        1. misspiggy*

          It’s irrelevant for them to be giving you excuses – but I’d be interested to know what professional culture deems the kind of actions you describe appropriate. I’ve worked in a huge number of different places and, while several cultures might sanction that kind of behaviour between friends, none would recognise it as professionally appropriate. So using culture as an excuse seems doubly irrelevant.

        2. Observer*

          I get it, but it’s not a useful response. More useful to you is to respond along the lines of “Regardless of Harasser’s cultural background, this behavior is totally inappropriate. I need this behavior to stop. And, I would like to know that the company will be taking measures to keep this from happening to others.”

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I agree with Rusty.
        Tell them the cause for the behavior has no bearing in the matter. The behavior is not acceptable and clearly has legal implications for the company. The fact that he does not know/understand is irrelevant here. He has been told and you expect no further instances. If there is another single instance you will be filing yet another complaint. Let them know that you are keeping a paper trail of how this all is being handled.

  159. Aurora Leigh*

    Am I crazy to think about taking on a 2nd job???

    I work 40hrs/week 8-5, Mon-Fri.

    Out of the blue, I was offered a 15-18 hrs/week, working any days/times I wanted. I’m seriously considering it. My day to day work is boring and this would be interesting, a valuable skill for my resume, and VERY secure. There have been rumblings at my full time job that the company may only be viable for a few more years . . .

    Any of you have a side gig? What pros and cons should I think about?

    1. ASJ*

      I’ve never worked a side job, though I have thought about it. Things I would factor in: what is your commute to your Mon-Fri job like? If you already spend 2+ hours a day, for example, commuting, then that gives you less time for a side job. Or if you have other commitments (hobbies, family, etc…) can you reasonably making a side job factor in with those things? Also, are you willing to work on weekends? Realistically you may not be able to spend 3+ hours Mon-Fri on a side job, so that means some weekend work.

    2. Rincat*

      I worked a regular 40 hour M-F job and then did some freelance editing where I worked maybe 3-4 hours a week whenever I wanted, from home. I hated it. I was just too tired after my primary job to want to put any energy or brain power towards the editing work. And this was before I had kids. Now that I have a toddler, I’ve stopped all freelancing.

      So I’d ask yourself, how much energy do you want to put towards it? Would you find yourself putting it off during the week because you’re tired after a day of work, so it all builds up on the weekend? Or would you get energized about doing it? Those are questions I asked myself.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      15-18 hours/week is a lot for a side gig. If you choose to work during the week, that’s an extra 3 hours every day. I would probably take a 10-hour side gig, but only if I worked from home and could work sporadically. I had a retail job that I really enjoyed; when I got my current full-time job, I worked weekends in retail for a month because it was the holiday season and I had agreed to work through December. It was fine, but it was really tiring, and I had to scramble to do things like laundry, cooking, and cleaning.

      Pros? Well, if the money is REALLY GOOD, then I would jump at it. :)

    4. LQ*

      I think the commute question is a big one. Also…how rich (complex and interesting – not cash) is your outside work life? If you regularly have plans (going out or you really love making sure you’re watching all the new netflix shows or you read 10 books a month and love it) after work and on the weekends then it’s going to eat into all of that. At nearly 20 hours a week that’s basically all your “hobby” or things you do for fun time. Are you ok with giving that up for this?

      If it is possible I’d try to put it off for 2 weeks and keep insanely diligent track of your time. Don’t forget that you will need downtime of some kind even if you like the second job. Look to see if you really have that much time to give up.

      (I podcast and write as a hobby, it takes up a very solid 20 hours a week. I would not recommend it to anyone who didn’t have a sub 10 minute commute and/or a deep deep desire to do it. That said, I did for a while have a part time job that was about 15 hours a week, it was really rough and didn’t pay enough to be worth it. I’d do it for short stints to make nice extra cash but not for security.)

    5. FN2187*

      I have a side job. It’s about 3 hours extra a week. But, factoring in commute, it comes out to be 6 extra hours. I hate it. I am constantly tired and feel like I never have time to just decompress. My dog has to go to a friend’s house on my long days, which just adds more things to do during the day. I cannot wait to be done with this in May.

      That being said, plenty of people I know can juggle a full-time job and a side gig. I love the extra money, but I’m not quite sure that it’s truly worth it. I would keep in mind what your work life balance would look like with an extra 15 hours a week — that’s quite a lot, and it can easily burn you out.

    6. Tempest*

      I had a full time job and did about that many hours on top doing food deliveries to make the money to move countries. It was exhausting. I got through it primarily by refusing to work Sundays. It was my day and I didn’t work for anyone on a Sunday. I was lucky that for the first three months post move I bummed around on my savings and recharged. I would thing twice about doing it again without a similarly compelling reason. I also had a ten minute commute to my main job and delivering pizzas was half game half job. If you thought it would have a finite lifespan and might stop you being unemployed sometime in the semi-near future I’d be tempted to try it and see how you got on though.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Plenty of people have a second job.
      Start out slow, see if you can do 12-15 hours a week. Agree to do it for a few months and re-evaluate say in June.

      Plan your time well. Before saying yes, factor in your commute time for both jobs so you realize how much of your awake time is being chewed up.
      Make a plan for self-care. It’s real easy to run out of groceries and time simultaneously. Laundry can pile up before you know it. Figure out a rough plan of how you will keep the basics running in your household.

      Set goals for the extra money. That extra money can fly out the window in a heart beat. You are going to be tired, it helps to know that you are working on some longer term goals with the extra cash.

      And do re-evaluate it at a predetermined interval. I used June as an example. Don’t skate by June without thinking about your longer term goals.
      I say go for it. It might be a good way to transition to a better job.

  160. JobSeeker017*

    Happy to serve as a City Year reference

    Although my job search has been quiet this week, I am overjoyed to have served as a reference for a former co-worker’s City Year application. She did an outstanding job on our joint project, and I was thrilled that she thought highly enough of me to seek my opinion of her work ethic for a reference.

    I have a very high regard for City Year, AmeriCorps, and AmeriCorps*VISTA, which may affect my perspective a bit. The stipend-funded positions really do improve lives, particularly of at-risk youth, and teach millennials about the working world, nonprofits, and the concept of community service.

    As my own search hits snags with rejection emails and no responses from multiple applications, I cannot help but want to be of encouragement and support to others who are choosing to embark on such a fantastic program. I wonder if members of the AAM community have similar experiences.

  161. Anxa*

    A week or two ago I joined a few other posters in learning Outlook, or so I though. I’ve had a Macbook since 2008 and my last two employers were Gmail clients, so I thought it would be a good thing that I’m finally on Outlook since a lot of jobs seems to require proficiency in it. How hard could that be, I thought?

    I’m so, so over it. I THINK it’s probably useful if you’re on a desktop version. But then you probably are in an office where most people have regular computer access (not a situation I’m used to it; byod is common in my field). Our WebApp version (combined with our network settings) is so, so horrible. I’m in the annoying position of working for an employer, but still being ‘freelance’ in a lot of ways. I coordinate my own schedule and scout work locations. But….we can’t share calendars. It was bad enough going through the ordeal of setting up a non-gmail, non-my-tablet-friendly calendar. But I went through all of that only to find I can’t share calendars.

    Fine, I’ll insert a table with my weekly schedule and just have to change it for every new client. Nope. No table inserts. Fine, I’ll copy and paste. Whoa, no! That’s hideous.

    Attachment city for me. :(

    Just a small gripe because I’ll spend about 25 minutes a day (of my personal time) going back and forth by email or phone. I could shave it probably down to 5 if I could save templates/signatures, adjust my settings so my interface isn’t so cluttered and confusing, and could share calendars.

    I guess I’ll have to actually learn this for real.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      No, desktop Outlook is garbage, too.; not just OWA. Some people really prefer it, for whatever reason, but I find Mac Mail, Thunderbird… even just webmail (Gmail style) to be far superior. That said, what are these jobs that require Outlook proficiency? I’ve worked two places that force people to use Outlook and neither required prior knowledge of job applicants.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Every office job I’ve had that used MS Office used Outlook. I’m also seeing it in job postings, like “must be proficient in office software, Excel, Outlook, PowerPoint.” I assume that’s mostly for the calendar function.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I totally believe you; I just find that a bit odd. You don’t really need to have used Outlook before to figure out the calendar function.

    2. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      We have Outlook as part of Office 365 and you can share calendars and open other people’s on desktop and web but not the mobile app. I love my Mac but must confess Office hasn’t been totally hideous. Except not having a show desktop icon I can put on my start bar. That makes me cross. But I digress.

      1. Lord of the Ringbinders*

        I meant to say shared calendars work fine in a mobile browser for me – have you tried that?

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Office is great—it’s one of the few excellent products Microsoft has produced. Though I love me some Google Docs and iWorks (or whatever Apple’s calling Keynote-Pages-Numbers these days), Excel, PowerPoint, and Word are still the gold standard.

        Outlook… not so much.

    3. Gadget Hackwrench*

      Outlook Full IS better than Outlook WebMail… but neither are as good as Gmail, tbh.

      HOWEVER. If your organization is trying to run their own internal email system, on their own hardware, for example for security reasons, then setting up their own Microsoft Exchange server, is one of the easier ways of doing that. It interfaces well with Company Network accounts in Active Directory. That’s why so many offices use it. It’s a bummer but there you are.

  162. Anxa*

    I found a job last night that also closed last night. I was very tired from work/not sleeping well the night before so it took me a while to decide what to apply to (there were actually TWO jobs and I felt pretty stressed about which ‘me’ I should be).

    Anyway, I didn’t really have any good cover letters or resumes for a job like this, but it drew on a lot of the more disparate parts of my history. I half-assed the application. I just didn’t have time. I left some of the optional info off. Left some jobs off (it didn’t ask for ALL or Last 10 years).

    I didn’t even write a cover letter (it didn’t ask for any other documents). I only put two references down. My application was sent literally at the last minute, and I didn’t have a chance to proofread my document. There were some typos, but most of which seemed more like like a somewhat poor command of language than actual typos (which I find MORE embarrassing, but I could technically accept as an okay resume for someone else).

    I felt kind of sick last night, not being able to update my app. I considered withdrawing it, so that I could apply to other positions down the line without being that girl that can’t proofread and who thought THAT was an okay application.

    Then this afternoon I see I have a few missed calls from this morning. One was from the generic ends-in-a-bunch-of-zeroes number from that employer. It’s a medical facility and I also have a missed call from my insurance company, which I haven’t really used yet. So MAYBE it’s that.

    Now I’m on the fence about withdrawing. Maybe they are actually interested in me? I would have just skipped the application, but I work part-time and this was also a part-time position, so I might not have to quit my job.

    1. Anxa*

      They called me at 930 am on a Friday morning now it’s almost 5pm and no other calls. They didn’t leave a message. I’m probably looking way too closely at this.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Don’t withdraw. If they called at 9:30 am on Friday, they’ll probably call back on Tuesday (because of Monday being the President’s Day holiday). I would think that they might be doing a screening interview, but maybe it will be to set up an interview. Be patient, wait and see how it goes. Maybe do a little research into the company.

  163. Jade*

    How do you feel about vacation policies that don’t let you request off to management, but instead require you to find someone to cover you if you want off?

    At my dad’s PT job they recently instated this policy. My dad’s not happy. He recently asked off several months in advance for a 2-day family vacation that has to be paid for now, and was told he will need to find coverage when it gets closer to his vacation date. He wonders what his boss expects to happen if he can’t find anyone willing: he skips out on vaca with his family or loses his deposit? That’s ridiculous. If it comes down to it, he will call in sick those days. He told us he would even quit first. Seems silly to risk an employee quitting cause you don’t want to deal with a request for a day off.

    Personally I think it should be part of a manager’s job to sort out requests off and schedule coverage accordingly, and that this policy is an excuse to not have to manage. It tends not to make employees happy. My sister’s former employer used this policy too, and it’s the reason she quit (and she told them as much when she left). How can my dad approach this? It is not a company policy, but rather just the dept he’s in. Should he go to HR about the policy?

    1. Bad Candidate*

      Is this a job he NEEDS? Or is this just a side job? I had that once at a summer job in HS. I told them when the season started that I had a 2 week vacation at the end of June/beginning of July. My managers put off dealing with that until literally the day before I was leaving and then told me I had to find someone to cover each of the 12 days I would be gone. I didn’t get fired but I got a “talking-to” when I returned since I couldn’t find anyone to cover me. Obviously!

    2. Dzhymm, BfD*

      Places like this are ridiculous. It’s part of management’s JOB to ensure staffing and coverage; leaving it up to workers to sort it out is a cop-out. There are all sorts of potentially dysfunctional dynamics at play here (e.g. the guy who’s best buddies with everybody will have a much easier time finding coverage than the loner who nonetheless gets the job done).

      If this place is big enough to have an HR department then it definitely would be worth it for him to check in with them.

      And heaven forbid you would want time off to attend your own graduation!

    3. animaniactoo*

      It’s a ridiculous policy. Last minute coverage, “I can’t approve this unless you can find someone to cover your shift” for something that’s not an actual last minute unpredictable emergency, fine.

      Otherwise – this is a failure on the part of management to handle their resources.

    4. Anxa*

      I hate it.

      The manager of one of our borough’s major departments was very involved in his church, which is a bit noticeable in our area (he was also in charge of FCA at my high school). So, a lot of my coworkers at a summer job were from his church. They didn’t work on Sundays. No big deal in theory, but Sundays were our busiest day (it was a beach job). It was so hard to find coverage on the one time I had friends visiting. They had to hang out near me at work because despite covering shifts for people countless times on little notice, in 3 weeks nobody would cover mine. I am an atheist so I know I need to be more understanding about how important church is, but it was so frustrating at the time because they had a change to be a good friend or neighbor but instead had to go to church.

      As a server this also sucked because I wasn’t really clsoe with my coworkers. I didn’t part a lot, which ended up biting me at work. The irony is that if you were hungover from going out with coworkers you could call out fine, because you were part of the in-crowd at work, but getting coverage for being sick was awful. I was sick on Wednesday lunch shift. No way someone was going to give up their day off for pittance of Wednesday lunch shift money. Such a miserable day at work, I thought was was going to throw up on the floor.

    5. Gadget Hackwrench*

      My job is similar but different. Time off won’t be approved if no coverage can be found, but the boss seeks the coverage, usually with a team wide email offering an “Opportunity for Overtime.” So far I’ve never been declined because people in my department clamor for that sweet sweet time and a half, but I imagine it’s harder with a part time type of job where the coverage is straight time. Still… I find it weird that the boss doesn’t even TRY to find the coverage, but sends the employee to do so. Do they have a known and popularly used pin-board or something to facilitate the swapping of shifts or finding of coverage? That’s really the only excuse I can think of for not doing it.

      1. Jade*

        Apparently there is a calendar up to submit requests off, but he was told that he couldn’t do it that way. I don’t know if only FT people can request time off that way maybe? It is stupid. My sister works for the same company in a different department and her request off for this vacation was submitted to her manager and approved in one day.

        1. Gadget Hackwrench*

          Can’t use the coverage request calendar? Why in the hell not? Something’s VERY wrong here.

    6. Kj*

      Ugh. They are the worst. When I worked at a residential facility when I was in grad school, that was the policy. I had to find someone to cover me for the two days I was attending a professional conference. The conference benefited my employer but I had to find my own coverage. It was a small place so it was hard to do and they threatened to fire me if I didn’t find someone to cover me. I eventually did, but I would have let myself get fired for that.

  164. turquoisecow*

    I’ve been thinking about writing in about this, actually, but I’ll just post it here.

    So, on Monday I started a new job. It’s in an industry that I’d like to be in (but don’t have a lot of experience, despite having a lot of other experience), but the pay is low (on $10/hour?) and there are no benefits, no paid time off at all (you get a week’s vacation after a year), and the management is really…weird. Controlling.

    It started on the first day. We get a half-hour for lunch, so I punched out, and then took out my sandwich and began eating at my desk. The office manager who’d been training came by, and gently but firmly suggested I could go eat in the lunchroom. “I’m good here,” I replied. She went and talked to the president (it’s a small organization, maybe 25 people), and came back saying that the president wants me to eat in the lunchroom. She gave some logical reasons for it, like, don’t want to get crumbs or spills on the keyboard, don’t want people to think I’m available for working when I’m not, etc, but I still felt like they were treating me like a child. Why should the president care where I’m eating? And it’s a big desk, so I moved over, and was nowhere near my computer. I’ve worked at several other places where people ate at their desks, and nobody cared.

    Then on Thursday (the job was Monday through Thursday) they brought me an 8 page list of Rules that need to be followed. A lot of them are basic common sense office culture that they bothered to codify, which was odd to me, but others were downright controlling and demeaning.

    For example, you have to have your cell phone off at all times – in case of an emergency, family should call the office directly. If there’s some other exception to this, you need to get permission from the President or office manager. No eating lunch at one’s desk. No headphones at your desk. If someone gives you a task in paper format that you need to return to them, you need to return it yourself, instead of asking someone else to deliver it for you. Make sure to say good morning and good night to the President or office manager every day, so that they know who is there and how to prioritize the work. Limit personal conversations to less than a few minutes or lunch time. Don’t take your cell phone into the bathroom to make phone calls. Don’t use the internet for anything personal, and if you do, you will get caught because the IT department sends a list of everything you’ve looked at for the week to the management and they review it. Don’t send outgoing emails. Don’t send emails to your coworkers about topics that aren’t work related. Don’t send emails to clients about non-work related matters. Aside from small talk, don’t have personal conversations with clients. Don’t contact the clients outside of the office, even once you’re no longer employed. (How they enforce that, I have no idea). Oh, and we have Monday off, which as far as I can tell is at the whim of the President, since I didn’t see a company calendar telling us which holidays are paid or not.

    Anyway, I wasn’t sure if I was overreacting, so I shared the list with my husband (I asked for a copy of it, and there was not one easily available for me but I was told I could make a copy) and he agreed with me that the Rules were horrible and I need to leave. We also decided it would be best to simply announce it via email, rather than going into the office. I was thinking I should stick it out for a bit and then leave, but he felt that I should leave immediately (we’re in a financial position where I would like to be working, but we get by fine on his salary, and I was unemployed for a few months before this.) Now I just need to figure out the best way to word my resignation email.

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      There’s no way to win with these types. They’ll view it as a victory because you were obviously going to be a slacker if you disagreed with the rules. Just give them something vague about fit.

    2. Whats In A Name*

      So they should probably treat people as adults but I am guessing at that wage they may get some less than stellar employees and I could justify the heck out of some of the rules.

      I could never work there, would likely leave and would encourage you to leave as well if you aren’t comfortable with the “rules”. I also think if you have some perspective on them maybe you won’t feel so uncomfortable? I could be way off there. And, again, I’d be out the door – but with notice.

      1. The president not wanting you to eat at your desk is valid if you have to clock out, because if you end up working at your desk because you appear to be available then they have to pay you or you have to start your break over again, etc.

      2. The cell phone thing is weird, but if you have a desk phone I guess I can see their point in the fact that you are reachable. The “no taking it into the bathroom” thing probably stemmed from people sneaking and spending 30 minutes on a personal call in the bathroom.

      3. The no internet/no email policy is pretty standard in places I’ve worked but the report sending seems overly micro-managing and would be the deal breaker for me….and why on earth would you be sending a non-work related email to a client?

      4. Returning things requested of you are probably a professional courtesy rule. Weird, but I get it. “Someone asked you to do this, you should have the courtesy to return it.”

      5. The “good morning” or “good night” thing seems weird, but you mention it has to do with workload? Are you on a schedule or do people come and go as they please? I would think there would be a better way to track who is in the office?

      6. To satisfy your own curiosity, I would just ask for a holiday calendar? Ours isn’t hanging anywhere but we do have one.

      If you think you want a job in this industry I’d probably give some notice, though, especially since it sounds like it might be your first job in this industry. I wouldn’t just email or no-show them.

      1. turquoisecow*

        The thing is, I’ve only been there for 4 days, so I haven’t taken on enough work – I haven’t even been trained on most of their tasks – that they’ll really miss my input. I would ordinarily give two weeks, but it seems kind of pointless that my notice period would be longer than my employment time.

        I can understand these being unwritten rules that are commonly followed in the workplace (you don’t want to have cell phone conversations when you should be working), and I get that probably they’ve had some problem employers in the past, but it still seems a little bit on the extreme side. (I didn’t post ALL the rules here, also, or the post would have been a bit longer.) Maybe some people would be okay with them in general, but it seemed rather demeaning to me (and my husband.)

        I also think they have a rather high turnover, and this is partly why.

        1. Whats In A Name*

          I think it’s up to you and how/if you feel it will tarnish your reputation in an industry you are just getting into. I’m just giving you what I think is the right thing to do based on your questions/situation.

          Ultimately it’s your decision and based on the written “rules” I’m hedging my bets that if you give a notice (even a week) that they will just tell you to pack up.

      2. Trout 'Waver*

        Most of the rules are reasonable. The issue is typing them all up in an 8-page document. It sends a strong signal that they don’t trust their employees.

        The good morning and good night thing is obnoxiously controlling, though.

        1. Whats In A Name*

          I actually had that written in my original comment, about the 8 pages written down was the most unreasonable (well besides good morning/good night) but then deleted it!

        2. Chaordic One*

          The good morning and good night thing is obnoxiously controlling, though.

          Yes, it is. Back at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. I received a warning because I failed to greet coworkers. I was shocked! I never thought that I was snubbing anyone, but I may well have failed to do so. I was always super busy and probably doing something like rushing up to the break room for a cup of coffee and then hurrying back to my desk to deal with the next urgent crisis.

          1. turquoisecow*

            Wow. That’s insane. I think I have gotten a minor talking-to about not being more sociable and friendly, but never a serious warning.

    3. Bangs Not Fringe*

      These rules seem completely abnormal. And I am truly not a fan of the no cell phone policy. In a professional environment, people should of course be expected to act accordingly but I don’t believe that having your phone on prohibits that. As for the other rules, they seems like overkill and yes, controlling.

      In the same vein- My SO’s company just sent out new rules that included no talking on the phone or texting while walking in the office. This to me was bizarre. Had their been incidents to spurn the creation of such an obscure office rule? Texters collide at work! — It remains a mystery.

      Ultimately, I think quitting depends on a couple things. Are any of these “rules” going to make it difficult for you to perform your job and still maintain your mental health (not get super angry every day)? So you ask if it’s better to cut and run, or would it be better to just deal with the current situation while looking for a new job? This second option means you’re still making that extra income you desire, but can work towards the ultimate goal of leaving.

      1. Bangs Not Fringe*

        The rules themselves don’t seem completely abnormal, except for the greeting thing, but I would wager the delivery would be off-putting to many.

        1. turquoisecow*

          Yes. Some of the rules make sense, but having them written down, rather than simply understood as Good Office Behavior was a little weird and belittling.

      2. turquoisecow*

        I think most rules have a reason, even if it’s overkill, like one person did this odd thing that was Not Good, so now we make a rule about it.

        It’s not necessarily anger that I’m feeling, it’s more like…belittled? I feel like I’m being treated like a child. I’m not sure what to call that. But you know how when you’re an adult and someone tells you something you should already know, like “Make sure you buckle up!” or “Don’t forget to wear matching socks!” – that’s how I feel.

        1. Chickaletta*

          I totally agree. If they feel the need to write rules like this, how do they trust their employees to do the actual work? Is there a rule sheet for their preferred method of cut and paste and what font they want used in Excel too? Perhaps they have suggestions for the brightness level of your monitor?

          1. turquoisecow*

            Surprisingly no! But I agree, it makes me feel as thought I am untrustworthy from the start, without having been given a chance to prove myself one way or the other.

        2. Bangs Not Fringe*

          In this sense though, I wouldn’t take it personally. These rules were not made as an attack on you. You did nothing wrong to create this list. You just showed up to do your job! Maybe as you said it was a product of squashing irritating behaviors by the management. Or maybe they are just crazy-controlling for no reason.

          But ultimately, these rules are not a reflection of you or your capabilities.

          1. turquoisecow*

            I’m trying not to take it at all personally – I haven’t worked there long enough for it to be about my abilities or lack thereof. But it still kind of burns.

    4. Chickaletta*

      That list is nuts. If you can put up with it, maybe stick around for awhile until you find something else, but don’t be surprised when this type of need for control reveals itself in more serious ways. Personally, I have low tolerance for those types of games, and $10/hr with no benefits is nowhere near the compensation I’d need to feel like putting up with it. Other people may be able to tolerate being managed like this, but I’d be looking for a new job real fast.

      1. turquoisecow*

        Yeah, if they were paying me an awesome salary and benefits, I might be willing to deal with it, at least for a little while.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Honestly, I would expect this micromanagement for the level of pay and no benefits. There are an awful lot of companies out there that do this. Similar rules are pretty much standard in retail. Which probably explains why front line people don’t think fondly of office people.

        There are millions of people out there working under rules like this every day. Yep. It’s exhausting.

        1. turquoisecow*

          I worked in retail for a while, and was a supervisor in a grocery store, managing 16 and 17 year old cashiers. Generally speaking, we trusted them to do what they were supposed to do and behave appropriately until they gave us reason not to. As an adult, I would expect at least a small amount of trust unless I give you reason to expect that I don’t know the basic rules of office etiquette.

          But, as you point out, it is basically (almost) full-time work for part-time pay.

    5. RVA Cat*

      So the company’s pretty much Little Tin Gods, LLC. Seriously I think some people start their own business so they can have a personal fiefdom, also because no co-workers can stand them.

    6. LCL*

      The structure of this job is what’s weird. President is a micromanager and likes it, apparently. Which you caught right away, and caused you to push back right away. Office manager asked you not to eat at your desk in a passive aggressive way, you responded in a juvenile way, she went and told daddy, you doubled down on the teenageitis…
      This job is not a good fit for you, unless you want to unleash your inner adolescent for the entertainment value.

      I have had to micromanage people on occasion, for a specific task that was new to us. It is horrible, I hate it, they hate it, and I apologize when I have to keep pushing the same tiny point. It is better to resign in person, but if you insist on email thank them for the opportunity but your career is going in a different direction. You want to work on white chocolate teapots, not milk chocolate.

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        I see nothing childish or teenageitis about how turqoisecow handled the situation. I was confused by her wording too, but I don’t think she meant that she moved over on the desk after being told to eat in the break room. I think she was saying that their justification didn’t make sense since she had moved over away from the computer and keyboard.

      2. turquoisecow*

        I didn’t double down on the teenageitis. I moved into the lunchroom when the President’s insistence came back. Sure, I felt a bit petulant about it, but I was a good little girl and did what I was told.

        But yes, the President is definitely a micromanager, and I don’t really like micromanagers in general.

    7. Tris Prior*

      My boyfriend worked in an environment like this for 6 years. As it turned out, these were not the only ways in which he was micromanaged and treated like a 5-year-old with no impulse control. It was an awful, awful environment in many ways.

      I mean…. if someone has a performance issue because they’re spending their entire day in the bathroom on Facebook, my feeling is that the boss should address it with THAT PERSON.

      I think you’re totally justified in getting out now.

      1. turquoisecow*

        Wow, I’m shocked he put up with it for so long. And yes, I agree that behavioral type issues should be addressed singly and not used to punish the entire group and all groups afterward.

    9. Elizabeth West*

      No, this sucks. It’s overly controlling and it will NOT get better. Some places don’t like it when you eat at the desk because people do spill on equipment, and/or they don’t want you to seem available when you’re off the clock, but other than that, it’s all crazypants.

      1. turquoisecow*

        Yeah, I mean, I kind of understand the reason for the rules, but the fact that they felt the need to spell it out in an eight page document was a little ridiculous.

        I’m glad I’m not the only one who felt that way.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, I saw that. I was angry with the universe because the OP actually did speak very plainly to the co-worker and not just rely on hints, and it still didn’t work–no, universe, that’s the wrong lesson!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Once in a while there are people that we really have to put our foot down with. Coworker is one of them.

        My wise friend used to say, “Match what is coming at you.”

        LW said no.
        Coworker insisted.
        At that point, under my wise friend’s advice, LW should have restated her NO. “I am not going to Japan with you.” Perhaps she could have asked. what part the coworker was not clear on, the redundancy pushes the point.

        Once in a great while people will push us on a point. It’s good to be familiar with phrases such as:
        “That will not be possible.”
        “That is not happening.”
        Notice the lack of explanations, excuses, etc. Just a firm NO.

        But I think it is very surprising to most people when someone has been told no and they keep insisting. It does not happen a lot.

        I had the happen a while ago with a person who insisted on coming to X event. Three times I gave her a soft no. My own stupidity, I knew a soft no was not going to work. She asked three more times. So the last three times I gave her a hard NO. I also knew that she would probably ask several more times because I had been so mushy the first three times. Had I come in with a hard NO the first time, I might have avoided being asked five more times. Maybe.

        It did not hurt our relationship in the least because pushy people don’t seem to feel us pushing back the same way we feel their pushes towards us They don’t read pushiness the way we do. They don’t realize or refuse to consider that they are exercising some sort of dominance over us.

        Match what is coming at you.

        It sounds condescending but some times you have to say things like: “I just told you NO. I have answered your question.” Sometimes people can be jarred back into reality by being told, “I just told you.”

      1. Emi.*

        This is the second “single white” comment I’ve seen and I’m getting that missing-a-reference feeling. Can you clue me in? Is “white” just a stand-in for “entitled” (and then “single” for “lonely”?) or is it a CA in-joke like “Wakeen” or “teapots,” or what?

        1. turquoisecow*

          I think it’s from a movie “Single White Female.”

          I haven’t seen it, so I can’t give you any more details.

        3. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Single White Female was a movie in the 90s (I think?) about a girl who basically tried to take over her friend’s life. Like, she cut her hair to look like the other girl and started wearing similar clothes and all that. It’s pop culture short hand for a stalker basically.

  166. NBoss*

    My boss complains about everything. All day.
    I’m an admin clerk and my desk is right outside of his office, and I can hear him all day long swearing and complaining about every little thing in his office. Not only about work, but about his wife and kids. He enjoys walking around the office talking to everyone about his marital problems.
    I got really upset hearing the things he was saying one day that I told him I thought they were inappropriate things to say, and he should not be saying them at work, but about 5 minutes later he was at the office right behind me telling the guy in there about all the “b***hy” things his wife does, and how he tells his wife that he’s only with her because of their kids, and how she f**ked up his life.
    It’s driving me nuts, and it makes me dread coming to work and makes me upset all day at work, and I don’t know what to do.

    1. fposte*

      Sorry, that does sound stressful. Unfortunately, this comes under “Your boss sucks and isn’t going to change.”

      You have two options, which may well overlap. 1), you look for a new job so you don’t work with somebody who hates his life and tells everybody about it constantly. 2), you disengage from it. He’s just a stupid TV show in the background, and you’ve got an earbud in that you’d rather listen to anyway. Take a breath, say to yourself how glad you are not to be him, and refocus your attention elsewhere. That is an excellent skill to develop anyway, and it will help you a lot now.

      1. Bangs Not Fringe*

        Sometimes with coworkers like this, I have done similarly and told myself I’m glad I’m not married to them and that I’m lucky I only have to see them at work. We’re not family or friends, we’re merely coworkers! In this case, that might make me a little sad for his actual wife, but it really has helped.

        He sounds like a very miserable person. Try your best not to let it permeate your headspace on a daily basis. I often find myself saying to myself (!) about these people, “it’s unfortunate you feel that way”. And then moving on.

        But speaking of moving on, since your boss seems a little toxic for you personally, you may find a lot of comfort in finding a new position where you aren’t subjected to his hum of negativity.

    2. Lynne879*

      I’m not experienced in the workforce so maybe I’m not the best to give advice, but I think every time he comes to you to complain about his personal, just keep repeating “I don’t want to hear about your personal problems at work, it makes me uncomfortable and I need to continue with my work” over and over again each time he comes over to complain. (Even if he does it every 5 min, it’s still best to defend yourself each and every single time than to defend yourself once & let him continue to walk all over you again).

      No joke, my boss at one of my part-time jobs does exactly this: complain about his personal problems to his employees. He mostly does it to the poor administrative assistant since their offices are right next to each other. And when she’s not in at work, he complains to pretty much any coworker who’s around. I know your pain!

    3. Anxa*

      Whoa. That situation would really be testing my facial reaction suppression skills.

      One of the worst feelings to me is when you have dread about work that has nothing to do with the work itself and just seems so unnecessary.

      And not that it would be okay to create stressful situations for your employees, but sometimes I think “Wow, for the amount of dread and stress this personal issues is causing, I could be putting up with so much more stress for the good of the organization.”

      I don’t know what you can do. It floors me that people can be managers and bosses that behave like this. I will say, congratulations on saying something. It looks like it didn’t make a difference, but I don’t know that I would have had the courage.

  167. Don't like bullies*

    I work in a department that is split and half of us get along very well. Half of our department works in one location and the other half works in a different capacity on another floor.

    My manager is getting ready to retire in the near future. Although he is a wonderful person and used to be a terrific boss, I don’t believe he cares enough anymore to do anything more than his basic job duties.

    One of the employees at the other location is a bully. We have had two people quit from that location citing him being the direct reason that they were leaving. In one of these cases the target told HR in their exit interview. Unfortunately she still had a few days to work after her exit interview and the bully employee was informed, by who I don’t know. In a move that would be funny if it weren’t so disgusting he tried to bully her into going back to HR and withdrawing her complaint about the bullying.

    In the other circumstance he and another employee (Who by the way is his girlfriend) bullied a coworker into transferring departments because of personal not professional reasons. In both of these cases my manager had meetings with the bully and the targets. This did not change any of the behavior and in fact in one case made it worse.

    Because this is gone unchecked the bully keeps expanding his range and has now decided that it’s time to target our part of the department. I am not one to back down from a fight with someone who is being unfair with my coworkers and friends. I have already gotten into a semi heated discussion with this person and I believe there will be more to come.

    Additionally I am embarrassed to be working in department where there this is knowingly going on and nothing is being done to stop it. I feel a personal responsibility to try to do something

    I would love suggestions that anybody has for steps that I can take personally before I do something more serious like going to HR.

    1. Whats In A Name*

      Well, unfortunately it sounds like HR might be part of the problem here. How did bully find out about HR leak, did they confront him before employee left and tell him?

      Start documenting any facts you can and then try with someone higher up in HR? A reaction is likely what he is looking for, so you standing up to him with either be a good thing or make it worse.

      I am really sorry you have to deal with this and am sorry I don’t have better advice!

    2. Chickaletta*

      Oh man, I don’t have much advice but I do have sympathy. I’ve worked with a bully before, and our manager knew about the problems she caused, HR was notified on more than one occasion, but she was still allowed to remain where she was while other people quit. (The same characteristics that made her difficult to get along with were the same ones that made her a driven employee who got things done and wasn’t afraid to take the lead, so I think our manager saw her as an asset. She also sucked up to our manager, and HR was located in another state, so they were a bit disconnected from the situation that the rest of us dealt with). If management and HR aren’t willing to be firmer in dealing with the bully, you may not have many options, unfortunately.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have combed the net and printed out one or two of the best articles I could find on work place bullies. I gave the articles to the boss.

      You might try going in and talking to the boss. Ask him to do one last good deed before he leaves. Appeal to his good sense and remind him that he has the power to fix this and fix it soon.

    4. Observer*

      Why would you think of going to HR? They are clearly part of the problem.

      A couple of thoughts. Firstly, start documenting your head off. You want to be able to see if either of two patterns show up. Either clear damage to the company – eg higher turnonver in the department, customer complaints, etc. Or, pattern of bullying people based on a protected category. It doesn’t matter what category. It’s a good question whether you want to bring this to HR – although if you started looking for a new job, and left, I’d definitely give them a copy of what you have.

      How soon is “the near future”? If it’s in not too long, perhaps you’ll be able to wait it out and wind up with a better manager. If that happens, you might want to consider if your documentation would useful to the new boss. But, anyway, hopefully you get a decent boss who puts a stop to this.

      Lastly, keep your own behavior professional. Sure, defending your friends and colleagues is a good idea, but don’t allow yourself to get into shouting matches, etc.

  168. Becky*

    I don’t really do big birthday celebrations and I always have trouble figuring out what I want for my birthday (to tell friends/family when they ask), but one thing I do like to do is take my birthday off (happens to be a Friday this year so gives me a 3 day weekend).

    Does anyone else have the opportunity or like to take their birthday off of work?

    1. Gandalf the Nude*

      I’ve been low-key trying to get my boss to add birthdays as a floating holiday to our benefits package. At least it’s less problematic than Good Friday!

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I used to take my birthday off from work every year, or at least take a long weekend around it. I stopped doing that because I ended up in jobs with much less PTO (smaller companies), but I loved doing it. When I started at a massive corporation, we had summer Fridays, so I almost always got to take off the Friday before or after my birthday. If you have the days, do it. Relax. Enjoy yourself. I see my birthday as the rare day in the year when my life truly revolves around ME, and if I want to sit in my pajamas eating bon-bons all day and watching Netflix, then I will do it.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      my birthday is tomorrow so I’ve been lucky that it usually falls around President’s Day and occasionally I get a three day weekend :)

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      I have never liked celebrating my birthday, so I go to work as usual and hope that nobody finds out about it! But I might be better served by taking the day off… hmm. Things to think about!

    6. Epsilon Delta*

      Yes, I have done so most years since my first professional job. My then-boss said that he always takes his birthday off and encouraged me to do the same for mine if I wanted to. It’s just been a habit since then.

    8. turquoisecow*

      My personal policy has always been that I don’t work on my birthday, and I have no intention of changing that, even if I’m not doing anything. I would take a day without pay if I didn’t have any PTO. It’s my day, and I’m going to treat myself specially even if no one else does!

    9. TeaLady*

      I have never really got people taking off their birthdays. Yeah, they are exciting when you are a child* but as a grown up? Meh. Now they mean buying cakes for the office and getting no cards because everyone says happy birthday on Facebook. And cards from colleagues after lunch because they felt bad about eating your cake…

      It’s my birthday Monday. I’m working. Plans for a meal out with fiancé on hold because of a work issue caused by months of incompetence by a contractor means an unscheduled 7 hour round trip starting at sparrowfart on Tuesday morning.

      I’m probably not the best person to ask about birthdays!

      *Well, so I have heard. Mine weren’t. I was allowed to ask one friend to tea and my mum baked a cake.

      1. Book Lover*

        I take the day off because, adult or not, I have found that if something goes wrong, I have this whiny voice in my head saying ‘but it’s my birthday…’.

        So, I avoid it and take the day off :)

  169. Lord of the Ringbinders*

    Sorry to reopen discussions about the word grandboss but whenever I see it I always picture the grandboss as my actual late grandfather, which makes me chuckle. Is it just me?!

  170. Anxa*

    I think I need help with tempering my resentment and envy of higher class coworkers.

    A few weeks ago I started a part-time, ‘temporary’ position. I’ve been part-time without benefits before, for 2 years, in a similar role. But now it’s really starting to get to me. I felt like at my previous job there were a lot of mitigating factors for a low salary, but now I feel like the compensation is unlivable and the work environment is demoralizing. The higher ups in my department are perfectly helpful and friendly and warm, but I feel so out of place here. It’s making me doubt my ability to a good job and I’m also shockingly envious every once in a while at work. I find myself very irritable when I think about my job, whereas I loved my past job, despite the lack of growth opportunities. Some things are out of my employer’s control or very situational, but I’m getting grumpy. I’m not used to being grumpy. Cynical. Jaded. Anxious. Expecting the worst. That I’m used to, but I’ve always been known to be optimistic, motivated, and pleasant at work and I’m just not feeling it anymore. I have a harder time ignoring the class issues of different groups of workers, which I know isn’t helpful at all!

    Here are the things that are getting to me:
    -My commute. Okay, that is just my issue. My previous you’ve-never-heard-of-it ‘city’ had a similar bus system to this one, only now I’m in a major metropolis and state capital so it’s really inexcusable how stressful the lack of clear public transport routes are.
    -No office. In my last job, I worked in a center. Here our center has an office, but we do our work spread out over campus. There are a few dedicated rooms near our office, but I don’t have access to some of the tools I’m used to: whiteboards and monitors in the same room, laptops (I’ll have to bring my own, which sucks because I take the bus), and textbooks. No textbooks. Meanwhile hoards of students take up group study rooms to watch play youtube videos in the backroom of hanging out.
    -It takes like 7 minutes or more to boot up a computer, but I’m nomadic so that’s a lot of booting up time over the day.
    -There are perks but it’s hard to use them. There’s a gym, but the lockers are teeny tiny. I literally can’t fit my boots AND my backpack, so I have to dress on the sloppier side of the dress code if I want to go to the gym. And leave my coat out in a the hallway. Also, the gym has lots of machines, and free weights, but not a lot in my range. (Barbells start at 40, I’m weak).
    -There IS a breakroom but I think it’s for real employees of the school, not instructional staff like me. Sometimes I’ll leave an umbrella or my lunch stuff or even a coat so I’m not schlepping as much stuff. I look at people unencumbered by bags or rolling carts with a comfy place to call their own to work and I almost feel like crying. They move so lightly through the room, so sure they belong there. I feel like I’m sheepishly trying to get away with using an employee break room, and hoping it’s not locked when I need my coat. When I’m elsewhere, I hate that I can’t drink a lot of water, because getting up to pee means leaving my stuff behind.
    -My hours are weird. I have scheduled hours where I provide coverage, as well as flexible hours where I’m paid only for minutes worked with a student. When I have paid down time, I don’t have access to the textbooks I could be reviewing (they are in the library), teaching models (they are in ANOTHER learning lab), our office (no organizing resources, doing small admin tasks). So I have downtime I can’t really use effectively.
    -I have no built-in prep time. I can’t prep for sessions. It’s not a requirement for the job, but I like to have about 10% of my work time be preparation for sessions. I’m an institutional tutor. Having time to browse the text, to make worksheets or mini presentations, to structure my sessions and review them makes me so much more confident and effective. Now I have to do that either off the clock (not a big deal since I get paid to do nothing some hours) or not do it.
    -There’s a lot of friction built in to our scheduling system. I’ve lost three potential clients because they met me and wanted my contact info to set up meeting times. I directed them to our office to register and they didn’t feel like it. They went with the more rogue tutor. I don’t want to poach students, but I also want to seamlessly be available. For a system that puts us out on our own, we also have a lot of red tape. Worst of both worlds.

    So I’m starting to resent my employer for what I feel is hamstringing me and keeping me from doing my best by not provided a workable structure. I know it’s not just me. I also look around every day at people who have regular hours. Don’t have to be glued to email to get a client. People who have desks or offices or home-buildings. People who don’t have to spend $4 to get to work, only to have a no show and get paid $3 and losing half the day. I know most have probably a pretty modest lifestyle and compensation package, but I still can’t help but envy them. The hardest part is I can’t keep it together for the students. I catch myself saying things like “well it would be nice if we could….” or “you would think they’d have….” or other things.

    I know this was really long and whiny, but I feel like I needed to talk to someone about it. I only have one coworker I spend time with and don’t feel comfortable sharing things like this with him. I can’t talk to my mom about it because she keeps getting on my case about how I need a job with benefits, like I haven’t been trying for 8 years (she also hasn’t had a job with benefits for like, 25 years). My boyfriend is hard to talk to because he struggles with guilt about my underemployment (we moved for his job) and is also reflexively positive about things in a way that just makes me feel lonelier (we’re working on this issue in our relationship) “Well, at least you…” “On the bright side” “Yeah but I bet you’re the best at dealing with….”I am embarrassed to talk about work with other friends because I’m so glaringly unsuccessful.

    I know complaining can be bad, but I needed to get some of that off my chest. I feel better already!

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      Have you considered tutoring on your own? It sounds like students like you and want to hire you.

      1. Anxa*

        Yes!

        I’m considering it. I’d be transitioning from college students (generally more motivated, but less likely to have money to spend on tutoring) to high school students (parents willing to spend money to increase grades).

        I’m currently saving up for a new laptop and perhaps getting a smartphone, at least one of which I’ll probably need to start a side business. My SO is looking into carpooling with coworkers so I’d have the car.

        I’ve looked into the textbooks used by some local high schools and have a few ILL requests for those.

        That said, I’m having a hard time finding clients. I am new to the area and don’t have a large network at all. My GPA is pretty terrible and I went to an average school. Fortunately I can now say “2+ years experience tutoring.” I’ve reached out to a few volunteer homework clubs to helpfully build my network up.

        And of course I’m trying to transition away from instructional work. So far I feel like my supervisors seem more supportive and me trying to grow within teaching, but unless I can go into K-12, I don’t think that’s best. I’ve been encouraged to apply for adjunct positions, but that’s just getting further entrenched into the college underclass. I’m trying to branch into more admin and student services work, but my degree is not in a related field. It’s so, so frustrating though because I see my science and allied health students so poorly served by well-meaning, qualified administrators who DON’T have a science background at all. I would love to try to switch to broad student services with some focus on STEM issues.

    2. Fabulous*

      I’m going to comment where I can on each point:

      -Commute: Are there any online resources with maps and things that you can print out? Or maybe a visitors center in the city where they have official pamphlets on the public transportation?
      -No office/Weird hours: This sucks. You’re basically at the mercy of everyone around you. Maybe you can schedule your weeks to be in different locations on different days? Monday, you’ll be in the learning lab so you can use the teaching modules in your downtime. Tuesday, the library so you can review textbooks on your downtime, Wednesday, near the office so you can help with admin on your downtime. Etc.
      -Booting up your laptop: Can you put it on hibernate instead? It will effectively “shut down” but you can still turn it on quickly without a full boot-up. Maybe 30 secs to 1 min tops.
      -Gym: Gym lockers universally suck. I’d just get two lockers if you can to put all your stuff in when you go.
      -Break room: Have you ever asked anyone whether the staff room gets locked, or if they have any recommendations for any of your other issues? You’ll feel much better about being there if you create relationships with the people you see there regularly.
      -Prep-Time: Where would you need to be situated in order to be able to do this during your downtime?
      -Scheduling: Can you get their contact info and pass it along to your office to contact THEM to register?

      1. Anxa*

        -Commute: Oh, I have the official pamphlets, have scoured the website, tried calling offices with questions, and have consulted Google Maps (less official, still new with my bus lines, way more info). I’m planning to attend a council meeting about this soon.
        -No office/Weird hours: Hopefully I’m only on campus twice a week (I was there everyday for a while but I’m trying to taper). I do a lot of my unpaid, personal downtime near our office between sessions. Still, I feel like I can’t actually do anything to prep outside of the admin stuff (like filling out paperwork, coordinating schedules, fielding phone calls) that’s normal to do during personal time.
        -Booting up your laptop: I actually don’t bring mine for now, but I really can’t. My battery is dying and it’s a 2008 so I’m not really going to get a new one for it. Plus it’s one more thing to worry about leaving unattended. It’s the computers on campus that take forever to boot, which really eats into instruction time. It’s just a little pet peeve because I’m always logging out when I need to go to the bathroom or something, and when I get to my sessions I can’t start really getting down to business for the first 10 minutes or so.
        -Gym: I’m working on getting more zen about this! It is what it is!
        -Break room: I think I really need to find a place where I’d have an access code. I think I’m the only one that spends as much time on campus without working. A lot of others are students or just use it as extra money and it’s not their primary income source, so they just work hours that are convenient for them.
        -Prep-Time: I think I need to do more about getting the resources to me, since that’s where I need to be. My coworker and I are thinking of splitting up and him going to the model lab, while I stay where we’re posted. We’re also thinking of finding other staff people whose job and pay structure to help run us supplies.
        Scheduling: Can you get their contact info and pass it along to your office to contact THEM to register? That’s actually a great idea! If it doesn’t work out, at least it will show how this extra step is an obstacle to engagement.

        I feel like I have a negative answer for everything, but on the plus side that means there’s a lot that can be improved. Maybe I can have a role in that after I get myself more established.

    3. Colette*

      Are there student lockers you can rent (or be given use of?) It sounds like not having to carry everything around all the time would make things a bit better.

      What do other people in your role do?

      Can you borrow common textbooks from the library?

      This sounds poorly set up and frustrating, but it’s worth thinking about ways to make it not quite as bad.

      1. Anxa*

        There aren’t any good library books available for circulation that I need, but I did explain my situation to one person at the circ desk. One of the courses has a 3 day circ in addition to a 3 hour one, so I asked about how to best time the hold on it.

        No holds but next week I can talk to a library higher up about having special permission to take it with me to the other building.

    4. Wheezy Weasel*

      I think these are all reasonable complaints. Your gut is telling you there is an issue and you’re able to quantify it. Perhaps individually, those issues are workable, but it’s the combination of all of these factors that would put me over the edge. And as one of the ‘effortless people’ you mention, it’s useful to be reminded once in awhile that we have the right tools to do our job while others do not. I guarantee we don’t notice a lot of them until they are missing. I recently took a job at a bit lower salary and among my deciding factors was I’d have a private office and not have to work in a bullpen…pardon me, an open office environment. At some point, things go from being a perk to a requirement. I think you’re at that point with this job.

      – Laptop with digital textbooks: are any of these textbooks available digitally? Can the publisher send you a free digital copy if you’re tutoring from the material?
      – Backpack or rolling professional suitcase: it’s frustrating to look like an undergrad or a jet-setter that didn’t check luggage, especially if you have to take it into a restroom, but I’d rather have a bit of oversized luggage that also holds my coat and umbrella and avoid leaving those elsewhere.
      – Rogue tutor: as long as they eventually use the system to sign up for a time, what’s the hard in having them contact you first so you know to be available? Let them know that anyone who does use the system will have priority over them. When they arrive, have them login (with your laptop even) and sign up for the timeslot on the scheduling system. It’s not foolproof, you may be at risk for discipline, etc.

  171. Librarian Ish*

    I’m so late to this but I want to say rarrrrr someone put in a complaint about our “Celebrate Latinx Heritage” display because they didn’t think this was the appropriate month for it. No, not because of Black History Month (we have a much larger display downstairs celebrating that). But because we should have saved it for Cinco de Mayo.

    Display stays up, in case anyone is worried.

  172. Anon4ThisHere*

    I’m supervising a temp who is helping shoulder the burden of my colleague’s maternity leave (much of the remainder is falling back on me). There’s a vacancy in our office that I know she is interested in and I think she would be really good for. However, there’s two more months of Colleague’s maternity leave and I really don’t think I could handle the workload without Temp. I’m sure that if she’s hired for the vacancy they would want her to start immediately (and I started out as a temp, so I’m sympathetic to the desire to be hired permanently) but I can not shoulder Colleague’s maternity leave burden on my own. Temp was trained by Colleague, and I still have to spend time training her. If they brought in a new temp for maternity leave, I’d spend more time training them than I’d save by having them do the work. Help!?!?!

    1. Colette*

      Do you need to get involved? I mean, she can apply on her own?

      Two months isn’t long when it comes to hiring – if she is hired, they might be able to wait for her, because it will likely be only a few weeks by then. But she could quit tomorrow for an outside job, somtrying to prevent her from getting this one could easily backfire.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, talk to your boss about working out an agreement with the other boss, should the other boss decide to hire her. Everyone should be fairly understanding if they are reasonable people.

  173. Teapot fullness monitor?*

    Any advice for staying out the “scolding mother” role as a manager? I’m a new-ish supervisor, and I have one employee who keeps tattling to me about how one of the company teapots keeps getting left less than half-full (company policy is that it be returned at least half-full). The thing is, she was out a very extended leave, and the entire time she was gone, no one complained about this. They just, presumably, fixed the problem and filled up the teapot when they saw it was low, even if they weren’t necessarily the one to empty it. The first time she complained, I did send out a light “Hey, please remember to fill up the teapots!” email, but I have no desire to do that every week, nor do I feel this is such an enormous problem that it needs a bunch of staff time and energy and bad feeling. On the other hand, people should be filling up the teapots. Thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      You don’t have to do something just because a staffer complains to you; you can and should have your own threshold for when something becomes notification or discipline worthy.

      If this isn’t a big deal to the unit, tell her that you understand she’s annoyed but the occasional reminder is all you’re prepared to do. If you don’t want to hear about this again, tell her that–not in those words, but that you’ve registered her frustration and made clear your approach so you don’t need to discuss this again with future instances; if you want to hear from her again if there’s some kind of frequency or escalation, tell her that.

      This is basically your office’s kitchen cleanup, only probably less onerous, and it’s not a good use of resources to police it.

      1. Teapot fullness monitor?*

        Thank you! The kitchen-cleanup analogy helped me figure out why I felt it was both petty and a thing. :) That helps me figure out which battles to pick, either way. I think this employee is used to having her whims treated as commands, and calibrating her issues against “dirty kitchen” issues helps me clarify when to intervene. Thanks!

    2. Newby*

      If you want a one and done notification, you can post a note above or on the teapot asking that it be refilled when it is half-full. We have some of those around where I work and they have fixed the problem. Just try not to make it sound condescending.

      1. Teapot fullness monitor?*

        I wish that were possible, but it would create a steam-burn (?) issue to post signs in this context. I did end up just noting on our daily-planning whiteboard that one particular teapot was low on tea. I’m hoping that’s a reasonable jog toward “Do this, but I’m not gonna harass you about it.”

    3. turquoisecow*

      If this issue is really as minor as you’re making it sound (and not a major work issue that causes people LOTS more work), I’d just tell the employee that she needs to worry about other things. Others have been working around this issue in the way you described, and while that’s not necessarily company policy, there are no downsides (presuming this is true) to doing it the new way.

      If there really is a serious reason why they should be following the official policy, like it impacts performance or profit or some other serious thing, then definitely make an issue of it. This doesn’t sound like it’s the case, though.

      Also, if you’re really in doubt, bring it to your boss, or someone higher up, and mention that you’ve been doing this procedure in a new way, rather than the official company policy, and it’s working just as well. If they agree with the employee that this is a Serious Offense, then obviously have a more serious discussion and maybe even get boss involved to get people back on track. If he agrees with you, then you can pass this on to the complaining employee. I’m mentioning this not because I feel you need to go running to the boss for permission or anything, but maybe he or she knows some reason for the company policy that you’re not aware of, because you don’t have the whole company picture, so there are consequences that haven’t come to light but will in the future (and then will come back to bite you because you didn’t enforce the policy).

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Tell her other people work here. Stop filling the teapot and give others the opportunity to do so. In turn this will mean she does not have to complain to you about the teapot. (I would add that last sentence in but you may prefer not to add it.)

  174. Red Reader*

    I had an instructor this week who was totally using chocolate and vanilla teapots as an example in his lecture materials. So, central Indiana school MBA program professor, if you’re here, I’m on to you. :)

    2. CAA*

      I follow unefemme.net and her post from Valentine’s day has a photo of an actual chocolate teapot in a Paris chocolate shop. It made me smile when I saw it. I know it’s an old expression and not something invented here, but I definitely think of AAM when I hear it now.

  175. Mimmy*

    Having a helluva time staying focused on this contract gig.

    The project I’m doing is that I’m writing a “rules” manual for a particular state-run teapot program. I’m allowed to do it mainly from home since the office is an hour away and I don’t drive. But dang it, I’ve been getting pretty distracted. Part of it is due to pre-scheduled appointments and issues with the background checks for the instructional aide job (nothing bad – just chasing down references). Any tips on getting more focused so that I can get more done more quickly?

    Also: I wonder if I should include in my timesheet the hours I spent with the temp agency paperwork, e.g. filling out their online forms and looking for a notary for the I9 form, because that also ate into my time. Thoughts?

    1. Ruthie*

      Oooh, I can’t concentrate at home for the life of me. In college I had to be in a library to study, and whenever I need to work from home because of renovations or whatever, I really struggle with staying focused! What I’ve helpful are free timers and trackers like Toggl. You just type in whatever task you’re currently working on. So I’ll force myself to focus on a specific task for 20 minutes, or I’ll only allow myself 5 minutes of reading the news. I feel more accountable when I’m timing myself.

      I hope this helps and am looking forward to seeing what others suggest.

    2. MEMEME*

      “I’m writing a “rules” manual for a particular state-run teapot program.”

      …Do they have wings attached?

    3. turquoisecow*

      I don’t work from home, but I think I’ve had similar issues when trying to stay focused on schoolwork, so here’s my two cents. It probably depends on what’s distracting you, but for me, it’s often the internet, or the temptation to go on the internet. Disconnect from that as best you can (if possible). Close any social media windows you have open, and email as well (unless you need to reference emails, or write work-related emails). When I’m trying to write, I find I often find the urge to check my email or facebook or whatever every few minutes (maybe less).

      If you can, move your workspace. Sometimes, we get comfortable in a home office or wherever it is you’re working, and we’re easily distracted by that familiarity. Moving somewhere else – another room, a library, even a café or a Starbucks or something might help you to feel more work-focused. If possible, make sure the space you’re working in is work-focused, and not a casual space. Some people can lie in bed or sit at the kitchen table and work, but some people get distracted by the need to rearrange their bookshelf, or do the dishes, or vacuum the floors, or a million other little things. If you don’t have a dedicated office space, try just moving to another area of your home. If you do, try moving out of it, just for a change of space.

      Also, if you filled out all that paperwork after you were hired, then definitely you can count that. Most jobs, you have to fill out paperwork on your first day, and you do it on the clock, so it counts as paid time. If it was done before you were hired, then I don’t think that counts – you wouldn’t ordinarily get paid for filling out the company application, or sending an email with your résumé. (Sorry, but I wasn’t clear on the purpose for this paperwork)

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Write a to-do list and a time frame.

      8 AM Start, do a and b.
      9 AM complete a and b, do short task C
      10AM- 10:15 coffee break.
      10:15 Move to D and E.
      Noon Lunch.

      Etc….

      It’s easier to write down some things at the close of the day for the next day.

  176. Ruthie*

    I need an opinion on a work situation from an outsider! I started a new job about 10 months ago, and two months ago received a promotion because a senior colleague (Betsy) left. She is at a new organization now, but is still interested in maintaining a close relationship with my office. She has attended both office happy hours since she’s left, invited herself to a staff-only retirement dinner for my current and her former boss (we’re having a separate, larger party), and reached out to one of my colleagues suggesting that we create a retirement video for the boss. When my colleague declined to organize the video, Betsy decided she would and emailed the office to coordinate. Betsy and I always got along, but she was a bit of a gossip, and colleagues have reported that she was openly opposed to me getting her old job. So rightly or wrongly, I feel a bit undermined by her continued presence. The challenge is that it’s not just her showing up, quite the opposite. Clearly she is being invited to the happy hours by someone or some people, and of course people are going to take part in the retirement video. A work friend told me today that Betsy asked why she’s not on Skype anymore (we removed her from our Skype lists because we only use it for work) and said she wanted to catch up. And that of course my colleague is going to talk with Betsy because it would feel really rude to just ignore her. I would bring up my concerns with my boss for advice, but her boundaries are pretty bad and I don’t think she would see anything wrong. For example, I was collecting contributions for a colleague’s baby shower gift a few weeks ago, and she suggested that I reach out to Betsy to see if she wanted to give too. So I need a bit of what my mentor calls a “crazy check” here? Am I being too sensitive? If not, is there a gracious way to address this or do I need to let it go?

    1. Colette*

      Let it go. Betsy has relationships with your coworkers, and she’s not interfering in your work. If she wants to attend events and people want her there, it has nothing to do with you – it’s a measure of her relationship with them.

    2. Joanna*

      Her expecting to still be in the work Skype group is a bit weird, but the rest of it isn’t too bad. Hopefully she’ll soon get absorbed into the social world of her new job and be less involved in yours

    3. turquoisecow*

      This sounds super annoying in an awkward way. But I think it will eventually pass. Betsy will hopefully get involved in her new job, and the social aspects there, and fade away from you. She’ll get caught up in the gossip new place eventually. Unless she’s in the office next door, it’s going to become difficult for her to keep up with two jobs, even just socially.

    4. Observer*

      Let it go, but don’t put her back on skype. And make sure that all of her work access is disabled, her extension either re-assigned or has a new and appropriate message, and her email address forwards to someone else (you?) and also has an auto-responder for the next month or so.

  177. Javi Baez*

    I just got home from a job interview and had an email in my inbox that they would like me to move on to the next step in the interview process! My question is do I still send follow up emails to the people I interviewed with?

    1. Nanc*

      I vote yes. After all, you could have had the thank you emails ready to go and sent them before clicking on your in box.

      1. Hilorious*

        I would make the email something along the lines of “I’m so glad to hear that my candidacy is moving forward! Can you please pass along the following note of gratitude to my interview panel?” and then include a thank you to the interview panel.

        1. Javi Baez*

          Thanks so much for the suggestions! I just sent my follow up using similar wording. I’ve never had a response from a potential employer so quickly after an interview before so this was very helpful.

  178. Epsilon Delta*

    My partner has been at home doing online training for work for the last week. He works in construction so this is a very different environment for him and he is having some small troubles adjusting. I was working from home today in the same room and he told me, “you’re typing too much and clicking your mouse too loud.”

    2. animaniactoo*

      Yes, my husband has this complaint too. About all the clicking and clacking.

      He also used to tell me that I was reading too loud. Huh? I was turning the pages of the book too loudly.

      I rolled my eyes at him and told him to suck it up and deal. He has now taken to telling me that I’m reading too loud. On my kindle.

      On the off chance that your husband is not just a giant brat disguised as an adult, does one of you have a laptop where you could be out of each other’s “concentration” space for awhile? Or divvy up some hours for using the room as “sole use”?

    4. Jersey's mom*

      Can you somehow use a white noise to help mask sound? I dunno, maybe an app on the smart phone? I work office and construction, and I kinda get where he’s coming from. He’s used to working in a noisy environment and has learned to ignore the noise. Now he’s working in a dead quiet environment and every noise is magnified a thousandfold.

      If not a white noise app/music, then maybe some kind of music that he can hear and not engage in (think elevator jazz, classical, something that he won’t want to sing along with) on a low volume to cover the clicking?

    5. turquoisecow*

      Some of my coworkers used to type very loudly, and it would annoy me slightly. Seriously, it seemed like they were banging on their keyboards hard enough to break them.

      But yeah, Partner needs to suck it up and deal, because humans make noise, and he needs to deal with humans. Either that, or you need to work in separate rooms.

  179. Jillociraptor*

    I staff a committee at a university that has to make some very difficult strategic decisions about our organizational budget. Folks from all across our area are represented on this team. There’s one member of the team who can be really difficult: he often complains extensively about the challenges facing his own area, often becomes agitated when new information comes out in the meeting that he didn’t know ahead of time, and often places blame on other units for why his area can’t do the best work possible.

    His issues stem from real negative past experiences — he was shut out (maybe accidentally, maybe intentionally, it was before my time) from these decisions and divisional leadership for many years. He has also tried to be innovative and has been shut down by our bureaucratic work environment. He works in a net revenue generating area and often feels like that effort to enable the rest of our operations isn’t sufficiently recognized. I do believe that he is mostly motivated by wanting to do a good job, and feeling like other things are getting in the way of that. But he can be really negative and disruptive on the committee.

    He’s my superior, not a peer, but I’m curious if you have any suggestions as I support the facilitators of the meeting (and sometimes facilitate individual items on the agenda) for ways to engage with him more effectively to get the good parts of his ideas without the angst and negativity. I do feel like I have a good personal relationship with him, but definitely am not in a hierarchical position to talk to him directly on his behavior.

    1. Jersey's mom*

      Maybe, you can use a version of these words with him:

      Fergus, I’d like to share an observation I’ve had regarding the money committee, and I thought it might be of interest to you. I’ve been staffing the committee for XX years, and one thing I’ve noticed is that the people who are successful in obtaining a decent budget have done X,Y Z. And when they’ve presented this to the committee, they’ve had a cool, clinical presentation ready for the committee. The committee doesn’t seem to want to hear about the negative information and seem to be turned off when anyone shows passionate emotions about their particular area. I just wanted to share my observations with you, I think your section does A,B,C in an excellent manner, and I hope you get the funding you need.

  180. THATgirl*

    Our anonymous comment system at work birthed this treasure from our boss this week:

    I got an anonymous comment about the bathroom smelling. Before we begin, let’s be clear, I am not the bathroom guy please don’t think I am or ever will be the bathroom guy. But I do have knowledge to share, so here goes…

    Some dookie tips to live by:

    If you do dookie, it is nice to leave the light on and fan going. Mother earth takes a hit because we use a bit of extra electricity, but your coworkers appreciate your courtesy.

    Since no water goes in the floor drain (knock on wood, fingers crossed) the pea trap under the floor will occasionally dry out. This allows the smell from the pipe to invade our space.
    Pro tip: pour a few cups of water into the drain and MAGIC!! smell is gone.

    Extra pro tips just because:
    It is nice to leave things cleaner than you found them. You know, pay it forward…

    Accidents happen and sometimes even with our super-modified-triple-power flush toilets things occasionally don’t flow the way you hoped. Find a plunger and give it an effort. If you don’t I end up doing it. And honestly I have family who like to use A LOT!!! of toilet paper. I have become an expert plunger, but I come to work to escape plunging.

    1. Gene*

      I’ll accept being the bathroom guy. :-) There’s a pond with roughly a half billion gallons of partially treated sewage outside my office front door.

      If you haven’t ingested it, or used it to wipe off something you’ve ingested, don’t flush it.
      Never flush plastic. Ever. We call the applicators “beach whistles”, and we get them by the thousands.
      Don’t flush hair; it can cut steel in the right circumstances.
      Absolutely add water to the P-trap every week or so.

  181. Anon Making a Call*

    Just need to rant about this. I’ve changed details and have to be vague on a few things to keep privacy.

    I had to make a recommendation to my manager that it’s time to let a problem person go. This was a really hard decision to make, and while it’s ultimately my manager’s choice (I don’t manage this person), it’s a serious matter.

    Because of vacations, this has to wait for over two weeks, and I feel really weird and uncomfortable trying to pretend I don’t know anything’s going on with this person. I believe this is the only course of action, and the person didn’t respond to repeated attempts to fix the problem, but it’s still tough, especially because I do like the person as an individual.

  182. De Minimis*

    Update about the temp [the one who probably will not be hired permanently due to the high conversion fee from the agency] who is applying to open positions….and where I’m having to kind of have a poker face when I know that her chances are not good….

    It turns out she may not be eligible to be hired anyway due to not having the required degree, so I guess that’s one way to avoid awkwardness. We have fairly strict degree requirements for all staff–we made one limited exception recently but that was for a different position and the person had to demonstrate active progress toward working on the degree as a condition of employment. So hopefully awkwardness avoided, but not bad feelings, probably.

  183. Baffled*

    I work in an area that requires extensive specialised subject knowledge and skills. A new manager has recently been hired for our department from outside the organisation who has a background in our industry but not our specific area. Given we often run into situations where a manager’s approval is required to deal with non-standard situations, how do I engage with them? Talk to them like they fully understand our area and they’ll catch up eventually? Explain all the background information every time I need their help? Try to avoid getting the manager involved in things?

    1. Mrs. Fenris*

      I understand this one. I’m in a field like that too. Most of us work for very small companies where the leadership has the same specialized training, but corporations are becoming more common. I have colleagues who run into issues because the people above them understand the field, but often not the specifics that make or break our decisions. It generally seems to work best to talk like they fully understand it (well, sometimes it’s obvious that more explanation is needed) and let them tell you when there is a knowledge gap. Where that breaks down is when the gap is so wide, they don’t even realize how large it is. :-/

    2. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      Not sure if you’ll see this but I kind of have this situation with my manager. I use the same strategy with her that I use with very senior people: appear to be treating them like they know everything already while dropping in explanations in case they actually don’t using phrases like ‘because of’ and ‘as’ and ‘due to’, e.g. “We’ve been asked to make these teapots using the Wonderland protocol involving brown sugar. Because of the recent issues with brown sugar bowls exploding, we’re unsure whether to process the order.”

      Don’t avoid getting the manager involved. If that’s the process then that’s the process – you said you need their approval. If they have a knowledge gap they need to address it. But the above strategy can be a helpful way of giving people information without implying they don’t already know it.

  184. Anon for this*

    Advice wanted.

    My huge corporation constructs teapots. I oversee a few consultant firms that assist with teapot design and permitting. Rey, an employee at one consulting firm, has been an excellent employee, whom I’ve assigned bigger and complex projects. Rey is unhappy at her consulting firm, because it has become full of evil bees.

    I pointed out a federal job opportunity to Rey, which oversees Teapot permitting. She plans to apply.

    I know the federal agency and the manager due to a decade + of interaction. We talk about teapot making and regulation on a friendly basis quite a bit. The federal manager encouraged Rey to apply for an opening a year or so ago (Rey didn’t see the bees back then and didn’t apply).

    If Rey gets the job, she will oversee the Teapot applications from my corporation. I am completely confident that she will be an exemplary federal employee and would never show positive (or negative) prejudice.

    My heart is telling me to call the federal manager and give her a brief “Rey is great for these reasons” (fed manager and I have talked about employees, pluses and minuses, in the past) My brain is telling me to shut the hell up.

    Who wins? My default is to shut the hell up. (And hopefully take Rey out to a great dinner if/when she gets the job).

    1. Lord of the Ringbinders*

      I don’t think you should do this as you have a vested interest even if you don’t see it that way. And seeing as it sounds like the federal manager already encouraged her and therefore knows her, I don’t know that she even needs the recommendation.

    2. Colette*

      I’d say make the call. You have personal knowledge of what she’s like to work with, and that’s valuable. But be sure to be honest if there are areas she’s not as great at.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I would also be inclined to make the call. Rey may not get the job, but it certainly sounds like she’d be a finalist and deserving of their consideration. At the very least, if you haven’t already done so, please offer to be a professional reference for Rey.

  185. Lilly Ledbetter II*

    I know I’m late to the party, but I’m hoping folks will see and respond to this over weekend as I could really use some advice on what to do.

    I recently found out–and have the documents to prove it–that I am being paid around 15% less per hour (I work 40hr/week, he works 32) than my male counterpart in the exact same role. I brought this to the attention of my boss, my boss’ boss and the CEO. Their response was to increase my salary going forward, but the amount is still less (10% gap) than my male colleague makes per hour.

    TL;DR: The company says my salary inequity doesn’t rise to Equal Pay Act protections and won’t pay up. What do I do?

      1. Lilly Ledbetter II*

        First they tried to claim there was no discrepancy, but when I persisted, the CEO said it was because the male colleague had worked at the company longer than me (11 months more). However, we perform the same exact job duties and I have more total years of professional experience related to the job than my male colleague does.

        The HR documents I have show that they hired my male colleague at a higher hourly rate than they offered me and hired me at an hourly rate lower than the man at the time of my hire (he had received a COLA raise from his initial hiring salary).

        1. chickabiddy*

          That is distressing and I can certainly understand why you are upset. But it is hard to know whether this is truly a case of gender-based discrimination or whether he negotiated better or had a salary history that supported his higher offer (both of which are problematic and tend to hurt women but are not actual examples of gender disparity).

          I think I would tell TPTB that this looks like it could be discriminatory and certainly nobody wants that so how can we get my salary up to where his was 11 months ago?

        1. printrovert*

          I don’t think so. :/

          Based on what you have shared, this whole thing stinks. I support you pressing HR for equal pay. If you decide to take legal action, best of luck!

  186. CJP*

    Good News: I made the case for and received an increase in my base salary from the HR department. I’m a sales manager so there is an incentive component to my salary. For years the incentive plan has not changed. I am a high achiever and have nearly always hit my goals. My argument to HR was that my base salary PLUS the incentive component (if I hit my goals ) was equivalent to another position within my company that didn’t’ have the incentive component and less overall responsibility. In other words, my incentive was being used as an equalizer versus a true incentive.

    Bad News: HR informed my boss of this increase who mentioned this to the ED and now all of the sudden I learn that they will be changing the goals (within the year!!) and increasing them because “the incentive is now a true incentive and not an equalizer”

    Question: Am I out of line or is this punitive? Am I just out of touch with reality and the real world??…….The incentive change has not been finalized yet, but my wife says I’m right to be feeling like I got vindication from HR but now am being walked back by my department head. I would like to have a cogent and articulate counter to their change to my incentive plan that is not along the suggested line (of my wife) that politely screams THIS IS BULL!!! Any suggestions/opinions would be appreciated. Be happy and shut up or fight back?? Help!!

    1. CAA*

      Wait! Your HR department decides on salaries and can approve a significant change that amounts to an increase without your direct manager’s involvement or knowledge? That’s a really strange way to go about it. HR should be involved in compensation strategy and work with managers to make sure the plan is administered fairly and equally. But in a normal organization, employees definitely do not go to HR to ask for a raise and HR definitely does not make this kind of change on their own. So yes, I think that is pretty “out of touch with reality and the real world” as you put it, but you are clearly not alone in that boat in your org.

      Once HR did make this change, then of course they absolutely had to tell your boss and the ED because there’s a budget impact and your boss and ED are responsible for budgets and spending, so they need to know how much they’re paying you.

      On the incentive front, if you’re meeting the goals every year and the goals are not changing, then that’s really your normal baseline rather than a stretch incentive goal. It’s been a long time since I worked on a quota system, but when I did, typically whatever we achieved in a year was the new baseline for the next year and then the new quota we had to hit for the incentive bonus was 10% to 25% higher than that.

      It sounds like they were happy with what they were paying you overall and have no desire to increase your salary dramatically in order to get the same results they were getting before. They’re allowed to adjust the incentive goals in order to try to get you to do more, but the fact that they’re making this change in late February only gives you 5/6ths of the year to achieve the new goals. You can try using the timing of the change as a negotiating point with your boss (not HR!) and hopefully get the new goals set to something you think you can accomplish this year.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd*

      I’ve spent 30 years in a sales environment and run a division of Wakeen’s that has many employees on commision or incentive structures. I can say: That’s all kinds of screwed up.

      Ditton to what CAA said to the head scratching base salary part of it. How that’s a “case for HR”, *especially* in a sales environment is totally baffling to me. I’ve never heard of such a thing. Why on earth would HR be the decider on a significant part of your compensation, the base.

      As far as changing goals, well sure, goals can change from year to year. Incentive pay set to reward contributions that tie to overall goals. If you are a sales manager, your incentive pay should be mathematically tied to your group’s contribution to goals. How any of this became entangled with the concept of “equalizer” , I’m flabbergasted. That’s so opposite of any sales management principles. Incentive pay shouldn’t be stable. You want people with incentive pay to make a LOT of incentive pay because if you’ve designed your program correctly, the more money they make the better off you are.

      So hell yeah I’d push back, but not to necessarily keep the same goals. I’d push back to say “okay what are we trying to do here”, push back to find out how your contribution and your team’s contribution fits into the overall picture. Push back on the math. Maybe ask for higher incentives on stretch goals. Try to become a participant in designing the compensation package.

  187. Kj*

    Help! I googled myself the other day- in my line of work, it is super usual for clients to google you, but due to the clients and work I do, you don’t want them finding out much. The second result for my name is my Amazon wedding registry. For a wedding that took place 2 years ago. With my husband’s full name (I did not take his name). I’ve tried to remove it, repeatedly, with no luck. Anyone know how to make it go away? Everything else for my name is very professional and nice-sounding.

    2. Joanna*

      I wouldn’t get too stressed about it. Unless you were asking for really outlandish things, it’s probably not going to be a problem. If you do still want to force it further down the page, try opening professional social media accounts under your name or posting articles on your area of expertise places like Medium.

  188. NDA*

    A few years ago, I made a sexual harassment complaint at a job. The company responded with some pretty extreme bullying, trying to drive me out, while openly taking steps to damage my reputation in our small community. I ended up negotiating a significant settlement, which they paid out over time at the same rate as my regular paycheck. I made a clean start in another city, in a new industry.

    Now I’m contemplating looking for a new position. Since I left, that company has gone of business. I can prove my employment, but my pay stubs and W2s show me there long after I actually left. I’m concerned this might raise red flags with a potential employer. (It’s already raised questions getting a loan, but there I was comfortable explaining that the income was part of my separation agreement with the company.) Any suggestions on how to address this?

      1. NDA*

        I’m thinking having a separation agreement that involves my being paid for not working is unusual enough to raise questions that make me look like a high risk candidate.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Try, try not to do their thinking for them.
          They may not question the amount.
          IF they do just say that it was agreement made at that time which fit the surrounding context. If pushed say, “I can’t discuss this further.”

          Honestly, I would be wildly surprised if they even knew the dollar amount. And if they asked you, I would fall out of my chair in shock.
          Be brave. It might be okay here.

  189. Time Bomb of Petulance*

    I’m getting really depressed about not being able to find work. Sending applications into the abyss and never even getting a “thanks, but no thanks” type of response is really becoming disheartening.

    1. SeekingBetter*

      I’m really sorry to hear that you’re not getting any responses from the job abyss :( Do you think it might be your resume and/or cover letters not getting you any bites? (ie phone screens and interviews.)

      1. Time Bomb of Petulance*

        I think part of it is my field and the sheer amount of competition. The job market in my field is worse here than in other places. It also doesn’t help that I have not been in this area that long and don’t have a great network like I did in the last place I lived. Friends (who live elsewhere but) do hiring in our field have told me that they get literally hundreds of applications within a matter of hours when putting up a new posting.

        I’ve tried redoing my resume and cover letter based on AAM’s posts. I’ve also had people look them over. I don’t think that is the problem because I have gotten phone and in-person interviews outside of my field. I took another job outside my field for awhile but hated it and would like another job in my field.

        1. SeekingBetter*

          Yes, sometimes the problem is the competition in the field. I believe the job market has looked a little better since the 2008 crash, but we’re still far from a good economy. Yes, having a great and big network would probably help and I’m sorry to hear that your network isn’t as great as the last place you lived at. I’m slightly puzzled to why you’re getting better responses for applications outside of your field. If I tried to go outside of my field, it would make job searching harder for me because the work I do is creative and I think a lot of organizations want to hire a creative person with a portfolio of rich work. I have even tried several job postings where there wasn’t any creativity involved with the job and had no hits with those. But I could’ve been good at doing what the jobs required.

  190. Anxa*

    This might be a little heavy for this late in the day, but as a bit of a follow up on the somewhat recent one page resume rule for newer graduates….

    When you’re in a situation where you’re applying for an entry-level job (or one without heavy experience and education requirements), which advertises duties from all over your job history, which do you think is the least of 4 evils:

    -Fitting it on one page by doing a functional or combined
    -Going over one page, but sticking to 1.5 pages and putting a few key accomplishments or highlighting one or two duties from each job
    -Going over one page, but filling up 2 pages with some material that could have been cut
    -Leaving out relevant information, like an internship related to the field of work, leaving off a degree that’s not required but related, leaving off job duties that are listed, scrapping a skills section, or leaving off your recent jobs that are less relevant

    I’m heavily leaving on going to 1.5 pages, but I could technically show I meet the minimum requirements on one-page. I’m 30, and the job requires a few years of clerical experience (education can sub in part). I’ve had light clerical duties at about 8 different jobs.

      1. Hmmm*

        They don’t know that she’s 30…

        Also, if she really were entry level, wouldn’t she make it one page? If she’s had 8 jobs the distinguishing factor isn’t that she’s 30. It’s her 8 jobs.

        2. Anxa*

          It’s true that they don’t. On a one page resume the dates of my degrees would have to be chopped off.

          On a 1.5 page resume, I kept the dates. So it’s clear I’m a little older. Plus I have jobs from 2004 so it’s obvious that I must have been at least 14 back then, so I must be at least 26 now.

          1. Onymouse*

            > On a one page resume the dates of my degrees would have to be chopped off.

            If it helps you can totally condense that: “BS Teapot Manufacturing, Fergus School of Wizardary, Ferguson, 2004”. Similarly for your 8 jobs:
            “Teapot Maker, ABC Corp, 2016-present”
            * Achievement
            * Achievement
            …

            (as opposed to having the job title and company be on multiple lines)

    2. persimmon*

      Sorry, but I think it will be something like your last option, though can’t say if those are the exact things to cut. If you’ve had 8 jobs at 30, surely some of them were pretty short and not too important in the scheme of your career. You can can alternately cut out the job description for some of the older ones, and keep it to just the one line with the job title and dates, especially if the job title is pretty self-explanatory. I’d leave the degree in.

      1. Anxa*

        I think you’re right. And I did end up cutting two of the jobs, even though I decided to go to 1.5 pages.

        A different job at the same company really would have drawn on a lot of different parts of my history, all of which seemed somewhat important.

        They wanted experience working with children (That’s two jobs from 2005 and 2007), clerical experience (that I have in bits and pieces from a bunch of college jobs), knowledge of public heath (that’s a summer internship and volunteership), ability to follow protocols (best shown in a different research internship, but emphasized in some other places, too). Plus I wanted to put my past two years of more steady employment and what I’ve been up to recently, which outside of soft skill development really was the least relevant part of my resume. But no way could I leave that off.

        Still, I didn’t have even a solid year doing this job.

  191. Lady Kelvin*

    I’m super late to this thread because 1 I’m in Hawaii now and 2 I have a full time job now where I can’t hang out on the open thread anymore, but I just wanted to vent a bit about the difficulty of being a women in a male dominated field. I really like my jobs dn the people I work with, but because Hi has so much military everyone I talk to assumes I’m a military spouse just temporarily working while we are stationed here. I work for a federal agency which is composed of primarily PhDs and MS, so it’s not the type of place you work temporarily. I am exhausted explaining that no, we moved for my career because right now (and perhaps forever) my career takes priority. Even trying to get my older male colleagues, from whom I am supposed to take over their work, I have gotten “so, why are you here?” It’s just frustrating to have to start over proving myself because I look very young and am a women so my pedigree (degree from prestigious university and lots of experience) doesn’t mean a thing. Has anyone else been met with shock when they say that their career takes precedence over their husband’s?

    1. CAA*

      Aloha! You’re still new there, and they’re getting to know you, right? I think some of them will get over it once you’ve been there a while and it’s sunk in that you’re staying. Others will never grasp the concept. I live in a military town in CA, and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been asked, often multiple times by the same people, if my DH is in the military (he’s not and never has been). In places that have a lot of transient military families, it’s just a thing that people ask to start a conversation. You don’t have to go into a lot of background on how your career takes precedence. You can just say that you moved for the job and you’re excited about the opportunity to live in the islands. Learn to repeat that with a smile, because you’re going to have to say it often for at least the first year.

      I love Hawaii and hope you get a chance to really enjoy the state. We went to Kauai for the first time last year and I just fell in love with it. I’m hoping to talk my husband into going back to the big island later this year.

    2. Was New in town*

      I had a similar experience when I moved to a new state to take a job in an area with lots of corporate transfers usually among the men. Mostly when meeting other women, with my young daughter. I was at first flabbergasted…so odd that people would assume I was married and that I was a following spouse, which I don’t think I’d heard of at the time. A simple, no, we moved here for my job, took care of it and occasionally someone would have the grace to be mildly embarrassed about the assumption. Once I learned how common the assumed situation was, I took less offense to the question and eventually it all stopped when I was no longer the newbie.

  192. Intern*

    Can any engineers here point me to good study materials for the electrical and computer FE? My husband plans on taking it in October and we’d like him to start studying as soon as possible. Thanks!

  193. Bad Interview Follow Up?*

    I had an interview for a postion that seemed like it could be a really good fit … before the interview. The interview was filled with danger signs. It was also very rushed (lasting mere minutes) due in part to there being back to back interviews scheduled thoughout the day and the interviewer repeatedly letting me know they are very busy. I now have no interest in the position or the company. Had this simply been a case of just not a right match, I would definitely follow up thanking the interviewer for their time but removing myself from consideration for the role. But since this was a red flag filled cattle call, should I even bother unless they happen to contact me again?

  194. Trix*

    How different are your cover letters from one application to another?

    Also, how do you search for jobs (like literally, what do you type in the search bar) when there are 20+ different titles that could be a good fit for you? I’ve had several different positions at one company and learned a lot of skills and gotten good at a lot of things, and I don’t have an obvious next step.

    1. Chaordic One*

      Well each one of my cover letter includes mentioning the specific job that I’m applying for and then I point out the specific job skills and experiences I’ve had in my previous jobs that directly relate to the skills and experiences asked for in the specific job that I’m applying for. Occasionally, I’ll include skills and experience from volunteer work I’ve done, if it is relevant.

      Depending on the situation, I’ll search for 20 different titles, if there are that many that are applicable. Sometimes, I’ll try to do a search by company name (if a particular company seems like a good possibility) or by job location (if it is available).

  196. Name changing for this story*

    The question about pet hates while job-hunting has just reminded me of an incredibly weird experience I once had.

    So I email the address I usually use to reach an industry-specific site that does job ads, networking events etc, expecting to reach Jane, the person who normally answers. I say I’m writing to let them know that they’ve published an advert which contains an illegal requirement (it’s discriminatory) and it would be great if they amended it and also didn’t allow adverts like that in future. I explained why it was discriminatory using myself as an example (as I was in the group being unlawfully excluded).

    A junior staff member picked up the email as Jane was on holiday. And forwarded it in its entirety to Fergus, the small business over who placed the advert. Fergus did not take kindly to me correctly saying his advert broke the law. Fergus wrote me a very long, angry email in which he threatened to contact all my clients (I was a freelance journalist so even if I hadn’t had a website he could have found some of them on Google) and complain about me.

    Now, I just find this completely absurd. At the time I was mainly known for writing about employment issues. My clients included national newspapers, several trade unions and some HR magazines. Some of them had paid me to write about why Fergus’s exact kind of job advert was illegal or to cover tribunal outcomes relating to this particular type of discrimination. And they knew me, having worked with me, and wouldn’t care about someone who was obviously crackers.

    At the time I was panicked and stressed as my career was still fairly new and I was afraid he would sabotage it. I wrote back simply stating that if he continued to threaten and harass me I would contact police. He sent an even longer email in which he said I was harassing him and his wife by accusing him of harassment and by threatening to call the police. Um, okay. I did contact the police. I did not hear from Fergus again. I am not sure if they did anything (my local force said they’d happily go round and see him but I had to speak to his local force who tried to wrongly tell me it was a civil matter) or if his tantrum blew over.

    And then I phoned and asked the junior staff member if she had forwarded my email to Fergus deliberately and, if so, why. She said she just didn’t think, as I recall. She told him someone had complained about his advert. He asked to see the email and she just didn’t think it through. And then I forwarded her the email convo with Fergus while we were talking.

    I told her this should never have been described as one person complaining – I had simply pointed out that the advert breached the law. I asked her to please tell Jane what had happened and have her call me as I wanted to know what they would be doing to avoid this happening again (e.g. have clear rules about not forwarding emails even if they thought it must be blindingly obvious not to). I felt really guilty at the time – now I’m torn between thinking it was kinder to let her tell Jane (who was mortified and very apologetic) and thinking it was horrible of me to insist she did. But it wasn’t about stringing her up. There should have been processes in place to stop this happening.

    Looking back I am glad I didn’t go BEC on a junior admin who made a stupid mistake.

    1. Observer*

      Well, clearly this site had a clear lack of guidelines in place, and was allowing people to handle situations they didn’t have the knowledge and guidance for. So, it was really important to let them understand what went wrong. Yes, it was stupid of the junior person to do this, but really, the fault was with the setup. So, it wasn’t about stringing up the Junior, but letting the site understand that a real problem exists.

  197. SeekingBetter*

    As some of you remember, I’ve been job-searching for a little over a year now. Well, I have good news to share with you all!! I found a great temporary full-time job at a great organization and already worked my first week this week :)

    Now for my question. My current boss and manager is a project manager. So far, we’ve been working great together but this is my first time with this type of boss. What should I expect when I work together on a project with a Project Manager? My past experience has always involved working with Marketing Managers so I’m curious to see if there’s any differences. Thanks!

  198. Cashew Butter*

    How do you hire dancers? Do you contact a bunch of agencies?

    Is posting on Craigslist ok?

    Is there a minimum union rate you have to pay? (Is there a minimum rate that’s ethical to pay when you’re finding it yourself?)

    2. Mirax*

      Depends on the kind of dancer! Back when I was a belly dancer, I did not take craigslist gigs unless I was going as part of a team I knew well and we vetted it really thoroughly. (“Never, ever take a party gig off craigslist, or solo,” my first teacher said. “That’s how you get murdered.”)

      The way I got most of my gigs, and how I preferred them, was through customer contacting local teachers (who often perform themselves). A teacher can put you in touch with dancers who can meet whatever needs, and often this is how they boost their advanced students into making the jump to Getting Paid–it was common for a teacher to headline the act herself and form the rest of the troupe out of advanced students.

      Rates also vary depending on type of dancer and locale. One of the reasons I stopped dancing was because in my city, there was an oversaturated market of belly dancers who were all undercutting each other in order to get more bookings, and this race to the bottom drove our average rates down to a level which was unsustainable for me when I worked independently. By booking through a teacher, who will be plugged into the community, you will be more likely to pay the local going rate.

      1. Cashew Butter*

        I’m in NYC so there are tons of pro dancers. Are you suggesting asking some of the top choreographers who have classes, or using kids? Or something else?

        1. anonasaurus*

          It depends on what type of dance you’re looking for and what you want them to do? Perform their own choreography, work with you on yours? Rates vary widely – but typically dancers are paid either by performance and/or a day rate for rehearsals. dance.nyc might be a good place to post.

  199. SevenEightNine*

    This might sound weird, but…

    As someone who hires people for jobs, I often feel guilty. I think I project onto people, because I don’t like working for other people. Do you like being hired to do things? Do you like having responsibilities you’re told to do? I’m trying to shift my thinking so that hiring people isn’t just benefiting me but the people I’m hiring instead of feeling apologetic about it.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Well, it’s a fact of life that we have bosses.
      I mean even if you owned the biz, you’d still have bosses. You’d have customers telling you what to do, several levels and departments of government telling you what to do. There is always a boss somewhere.

      Do you work for likable, fair minded people? That can help with perspective.

      Bosses are a necessity in life. Someone has to run the show. You do know that boss is not a bad word, right? It’s what the person does as a boss that determines the quality of their leadership. A good boss wants her employee to have wins.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Maybe you’re overthinking this. I don’t always like being hired to do certain things, but sometimes I need a job and having been hired to do a job, I’m going to do the best that I can in the situation. When making decisions, I like knowing what is expected of me and what I should kick up to the next higher level. When hiring someone I like to think that the people I hire appreciate that. It sort of is, what it is.

  201. Fred'sMom*

    I recently resigned from my job for a position that is a clear step up in terms of the quality of the organization and pay. The resignation itself went okay, but a couple of days later one of the partners called me into his office to essentially tell me that he’s glad I’m leaving because I’m “behind” and have not done well on his projects. He implied that it’s a good thing I’m moving to an “easier” job and lucky it pays more money because I can’t hack it there. There is some truth to the comment that I have struggled on projects for him (in my opinion its because he asks for one thing and expects three) but as far as I’m concerned the truth doesn’t really matter here. None of this came up in my most recent review (2 months ago) and I am incredibly offended to hear it on my way out the door and said as an explanation of why it is a good thing I’m leaving. What do you make of this? Has anyone else ever had something like this happen?

    1. lazuli*

      How rude of him! Not to get all psychoanalyze-y, but my guess would be that he’s trying to make himself feel better about losing your help by making you feel worse about leaving. A kind of milder “You can’t resign, I’m firing you!” People get weird and cranky about endings.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      He felt like crap about himself so he had to make sure that you felt like crap about yourself, also.

      Look at that convo as proof that leaving was the best idea. You can’t soar like an eagle if you work for a turkey.

    3. margarets*

      It’s a total George Costanza move. “*I* am breaking up with *you*.” It comes from his own insecurity and pettiness. I pretty much slipped out the back door when I left my last job because I knew some of my co-workers would be like that.

    4. Fred'sMom*

      Thank you for you comments, that makes me feel better – it’s hard for me to parse this kind of stuff when it’s personal, even though I know he can be a jerk. Also, I really thought I’d be able to leave this place on good terms, so that’s part of what upsets me too.

  202. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    Yesterday, an upstairs Teapot worker took a signed doc off Head Workers desk, sent it to my division, which thought since it’d been signed, I could email hundreds of teapot workers it was signed and ready for use.

    Turns out it wasn’t and since my name was on the email I’ve been worried. I got complaints the doc wasn’t there (and I couldn’t respond bc everyone waited for Head Workers final permission). My manager says none of its my fault and it shows dysfunctionality upstairs. Anyone go thru similar? How’d it work out?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Take your boss at his word, it’s not your fault.
      Next step, check for signatures on anything that comes from upstairs.
      Breathe. It will be okay.

  203. Morgan*

    In conducting my current job search, I notice a trend with human resources recruiters. Why are they jumping from employer to employer within a timeframe of 2-4 years? There are several that I am acquainted with who seem to only stay 2-3 years in any one position.

    Is a career move or that they’re also trying to find their dream job???

    Just curious and would like input from any recruiters online.

  204. Chaordic One*

    Although not a recruiter, I was previously an HR Admin Assistant who worked closely with our recruiters. At Dysfunctional Teapots there wasn’t anything to advance to, and after a couple of years people had pretty much mastered the skills and were ready to move onto something different, maybe not a dream job, but something that paid a bit better and that offered a chance to learn new skills and face new challenges, so it was probably more of a career move for most people.

    (You really have to move to a different company if you want any kind of worthwhile pay raise above the pathetic 3% and 4% raises that most companies are giving employees, regardless of their quality of work.)

    1. Morgan*

      Thank you for replying Chaordic One. Can totally understand the reasons for leaving/shifting. Although my job pays well and I receive the 3-5% raises, I am looking to leave for the very reasons you stated above.

      Teapots….I am seeing this word quite a bit. LOL!

  205. DietCokeHead*

    Work travel question. I’m an hourly employee and last week, I attended a conference for work. I was clocked in on my flight down. After the conference completed, I had taken a PTO day on Friday and my husband joined me for a long weekend. We are both flying back on Sunday. So my question is if I should clock in to track my hours for the flight back? Or not because I took some extra time to vacation? Thanks!

    1. Morgan*

      When I complete expense reports with your situation, the traveler is claims per diem (or in your case clock in) for the day they fly home. With my organization, it is allowed because they would have flown home whether Friday or Sunday. They don’t get paid for the point their business concluded on Friday (after conference) until the time they leave hotel for airport to return home.

      Hope this helps.

  206. AWall*

    Hi All, was hoping to get your perspectives on a mildly bizarre interview experience I’ve had recently…

    I applied for a job recently and the hiring manager called me for a phone interview (out-of-the-blue but I don’t think this is unusual in my country as I have had many, many phone interview and not one has been scheduled in advance – not even when dealing with actually hiring companies). The unusual part was that he called after 9pm at night! I was in bed with a book haha and was totally caught off guard. But I can’t have done too badly because I was invited to a face-to-face interview. So cut to the interview – his only question is if I have any questions so I asked plenty. I ask if he has any questions for me but nothing. Then the truly bizarre part…as we were saying goodbye etc. he picks up a book of poetry and tells me he bought it today. He turns to a poem and says that I should read it. The poet in question is a bit of an up-and-comer in my country and has gained a bit of notoriety for her explicit poems (one particularly famous one is called “Keats is dead so f*** me from behind”). The poem he asked me to read wasn’t explicit but I had no idea what to make of it!

    Should all of this be raising flags for me? Would these raise flags individually or is it only in combination that is seems weird?

  207. Chaordic One*

    This is totally bizarre.

    The poem thing is strange. Is this for a job in publishing or academia?

    Is the hiring manager calling from another country, and if so, what would the time have been there when he called?

    Did the hiring manager slur his words?

    1. AWall*

      The job is in venue management – tangentially related to the arts industry but certainly not related to poetry and/or literature! Hiring manager is in the same city so time difference doesn’t apply, however it is possible that he was working at the time (given that it was a venue) and just didn’t think about it not being within regular hours. On it’s own, the late-ish phone call wouldn’t bother me for this reason – I’d consider it more an oversight than a breach of professional norms but along with everything else it comes across as strange.

      1. Chaordic One*

        The combination of events is weird, especially the poem at the actual interview, so yes, that’s a red flag. In certain contexts it could be considered harassment, although maybe your boss is trying a bit too hard to be hip and/or cool. I don’t know what to say. If you accept the position, proceed cautiously and leave yourself an out.

        A couple of weeks ago someone made a comment along the lines of:

        There were so many flags of so many colors that I didn’t notice the red ones. I thought it was a parade.

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