open thread – February 24-25, 2017

by Alison Green on February 24, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. DH of an ex-Dom*

    My wife is looking to return to work after a very long hiatus. Her life and work history is difficult and complicated:

    * At the age of 15 she left home due to years of sexual abuse by a step-parent.
    * She completed high-school, barely, while working full time in a fast food restaurant. By the time she left she was
    the night manager, with 5 night staff reporting to her and a responsibility for the night shift’s deposits.
    * At 19, she got into the adult escort business (legal in her then-city), working full-time as a dominatrix.
    * Part time at first, and then increasingly, she assumed role of office manager for her agency.
    * In that role, she supported the on-call girls by:
    – taking calls from clients
    – arranging drivers
    – following up with the girls to ensure appointments were concluded on time and that everyone was safe
    – dealing with any situations that went out of control: calling security, calling police and filling out reports,
    coordinating the ‘Bad Johns’ list with other agencies
    – handling of money and associated paperwork: client call-out fees, invoicing and accounting, paying office bills
    – ensuring all required agency paperwork was on file with the police
    – counselling and supporting the girls emotionally, and with work- and life-related advice
    – generally acting as ‘mom’ to everyone working there
    * She left that job after 5 years, having transitioned nearly full time to office manager. The office closed down
    shortly thereafter (for unrelated reasons).
    * She has two children (now 15 and 12): the older had some special needs in early childhood, and the younger was
    just clinically diagnosed with Aspergers (which we have known for years). This is here only because it has caused
    her to have to learn how to interact with medical specialists on their behalf, to act as their advocate, and to
    assist in their treatment.
    * During the second pregnancy she was diagnosed with acute endometriosis. Her case was so severe that the chronic
    pain gradually crippled her and stole most of her life. Despite increasingly-high levels of opiods, her life
    deteriorated to the point where she could barely stand, hardly walk, and was effectively stoned most of the time.
    Before things changed, she was down to 4-5 fully-coherent (but still physically limited) days in a month, and 7-10
    where she was completely bedridden and nearly insensate. Other days varied between those states.
    * Six years ago, she signed up for Adult High School through a local polytechnic. She focused on completing her hard
    science courses (Math, physics, chemistry) that she didn’t take in High School, as she wanted to get into
    Agriculture. She graduated on the Honor Roll despite her chronic pain and medications.
    * During a one-year hormone-suppression therapy, her pain diminished enough that she attended University classes
    full-time, getting good marks. She attempted to continue when the therapy was over, but her pain and mental state
    forced her to drop classes to part-time, and then drop out altogether on medical leave. She has not returned.
    * Over the past 11 years, she has had three surgeries to try and assist with her endo. Ten months ago her ovaries
    were removed, putting her into surgical menopause.
    * Since the most recent surgery, the effects have been astounding:
    – Almost all of her pain is gone
    – She has almost completely weaned from all opiods: no more fentayl patch, and dilaudid down to 2 mg/day
    (from over 80mg/day). Daily pain mostly countered now by OTC medication.
    – Her cyclothemia is almost completely under control of medication
    – Cognition, memory, empathy, energy, and quality of life have all improved dramatically. Her worst day now is far
    better than her best day of two years ago.

    So that brings us to the present. For the first time in over 16 years, at the age of 41, she would like to look at getting a job. She will be focusing on office manager positions — part time, short-term, or temp to start with, until her endurance and confidence returns. The idea of creating a resume or discussing her past in an interview terrifies her, however, and she has no idea how to proceed.

    As I see it, the major issues are:
    * How do you deal with a 16 year gap in work experience? Does her medical history play any part in explaining it,
    either in the resume or in the cover letter?
    * How does she demonstrate experience in the work she is looking for now, given that it came from an industry that
    most people aren’t even comfortable acknowledging exists, much less want to talk about?
    * More generally, can she even include any of her work history and the skills/responsibility from there, given that
    they are 16 – 20 years old and can no longer be verified?
    * Should her schooling be included? (I presume so, since she has little else to show during that time period.)
    If so, how do you handle dropping out for medical reasons?
    * Does being the mom to two ‘special’ kids warrant inclusion anywhere? She says it can be written to show her
    adaptability and learned skills: I think it has no place in the sorts of jobs she’s looking for.
    * Who does she use for references? Her physical and mental state since moving to this city 8 years ago has precluded
    her volunteering or making any connections other than personal (and medical).
    * At what point, if ever, should she bring up that she is not, and never will be, ‘healthy’ by some peoples’ standards?

    As you can see, life has thrown my lady a lot of curveballs, but she has managed to survive it all, and is now happy to be moving into a new phase. She is empathic, intelligent, warm, sensible, and competent, and would make a great employee in the right position… but I have no idea how to convey this to an employer when her life, on paper, looks so… awkward and off-putting. Hoping all y’all can help. Thanks in advance!

    1. ThatGirl*

      I think starting with temp agencies or on part-time work is a great way to build some job history and references.

      I think the gap in her work experience is best explained by saying she was both home with her kids (very common) and dealing with personal/health challenges that she has overcome or that have improved dramatically.

      I do not think that your kids warrant inclusion on a resume or cover letter – it could potentially *maybe* be relevant in an interview if she’s had to navigate bureaucracy. I say that as someone with a brother on the spectrum with significant developmental challenges; while those skills can be somewhat transferable it’s not quite what most employers want to hear.

    2. Collie*

      I can’t respond to most of your questions, but I’d say a 16 year gap might not be a big deal since many women will be out of the workforce to be a stay at home mom for that period of time. I don’t know much about office management jobs, but I suspect she may have to start in something that isn’t management before moving up to that sort of position. I personally wouldn’t be put-off by the administration duties performed in the escort business, but how that is perceived will probably depend on the industry and individual receiving her resume. I’d also argue that, while what she’s done for the kids is incredibly valuable and no doubt brought many lessons and experiences, I don’t think it belongs on a resume or cover letter. And probably not in an interview, either. The health issues may be brought up after she’s hired if it’s necessary and she’s comfortable sharing but she’s not obligated to share.

      Hope this fills in some of it for you, though I think others will probably have better answers!

      1. Is it Friday Yet?*

        I agree with Collie. I would not use medical reasons for explaining the 16 year gap. I would advise that she say she chose not to work because she wanted to be at home with her children, but now that they are older, she is looking to reenter the workforce. Whether or not that is true, I think it is a much simpler answer and easier for interviewers to understand than any medical issues.

      2. Lily in NYC*

        Question – is being an office manager really a management position? In my experience, it’s an admin role with no management of employees – it’s the “management” of the office, not the people in it. I’m sure there are larger companies where the office manager has the admin staff as direct reports, but I really don’t know.

          1. Anna*

            This. My best friend was an office manager. She oversaw the office AND the front desk receptionist, so it was a management position and an admin position.

          2. Anon13*

            Thirding this. I’ve actually never worked in an office where the office manager didn’t manage people, though I’m sure there are plenty. I’m having trouble remembering the specifics before my last job, but at my last workplace, the office manager managed all of the general admins (the two receptionists, the runners, the mail person, the bookkeeper). She also shared an admin with a partner in the firm – she obviously co-managed that admin, as well. At my current job, the office manager manages two part time employees (one works remotely, about 10 hours a week and the other works in the office, about 30 hours a week, so he is close to full time). I’ve only worked for small businesses, though the last one was significantly larger than my current employer (~65 people vs. 7), so it’s definitely not solely dependent on size of the company.

        2. Thomas E*

          I guess my history is relevant here. I resumed working 1 1/2 years ago after a fifteen year gap caused by illness.

          I didn’t have the back story of looking after the kids and the illness was mental health with a stigma.

          To do it I had to essentially build a cv from scratch… Take educational courses which gave me academic references, volunteer, start my own business (with provable clients) which got me a part time job which I knocked out of the field to turn into a full time job.

          Now I no longer have a blank CV, and am taking a masters degree to help me take the next step.

    3. LisaLee*

      Her work history sounds a little like my mom’s. My mom was unemployed except for some very minimal retail work for about 15 years and got back into the workforce about 5 years ago.

      My mother had good luck applying for temp/part-time jobs at community colleges and universities. They’re usually looking to fill some more specialized/higher level positions with temps, which gave her good skills. She could reach out to teachers at her Adult High School and university classes, explain where she is today, and ask them to act as references.

      If your wife is still interested in going to college, she might try going part time and using her enrollment to get internships and specialized student jobs. A lot of niche jobs in universities are held for students these days (for example, I worked in a natural history museum and a library conservation lab and I had lots of friends who worked in research labs). These jobs usually pay a bit above minimum wage, too.

      I’d just explain the gap honestly: “After having my second child, I was diagnosed with a long term health condition. Thankfully I’ve now recovered and I’m excited to reenter the workforce.”

      1. Breda*

        Same: my mom has no college degree and was home with me and my sister until we were in middle school. She was able to get a part-time receptionist job through a neighbor who worked at a real estate agency, and now, 15ish years later, she’s one of their top agents.

        I mention this not just because I’m incredibly proud of my mom, but also to show that plenty of offices won’t be overly disturbed by a long employment gap while you had kids at home. (I’m also thinking of how in my city, childcare for two kids would likely cost more than my current salary.) In addition to applying for part-time jobs, ask around with your friends and neighbors: they may know of an opening and be able to vouch for your wife’s intelligence/work ethic.

    4. Temperance*

      Has she been volunteering or working in an office environment at all? I admit that I skimmed her background, but office managing is a step up from regular administrative work. I do think that temping might be a good start.

      I do not recommend that she bring up parenting children with disabilities, or the fact that she worked 20 years ago. Is additional schooling a possibility for her?

    5. rubyrose*

      In addition to what ThatGirl and Collie said, I would suggest she take some computer classes/seminars now so she can show she has computer skills and that she is motivated to do what it takes to get into the workforce.

    6. Jessie the First (or second)*

      I think most of the backstory here will not (and should not) be communicated to potential employers – so your concern that what her life looks like on paper being off-putting is unnecessary worry: employers won’t see all that! In a cover letter, she can simply say that she took time off work for family and for health issues that are now resolved. Those reasons are true, and also vague enough that they sound just like any other common reason.

      Given the gap in employment, it may not be possible to start off as office manager. She might have more success looking for temp positions in any kind of clerical role, even if it is just data entry. I believe you that she would be fully capable of it! But just logistically, in terms of being able to land a job, I think “office manager” may be a goal that is a few temp jobs away.

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        Exactly what I came here to say. Don’t include all the details of her life over the years, it only complicates things and could feed into biases of someone reviewing her background. A few words about taking care of her family (no need to mention any medical/health issues) is all that is necessary. If pressed during an interview, talk about raising a family in broad generalities.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      This strategy may not appeal to her, but it worked for a friend of mine.
      She had been out of the workforce for numerous years, as you say here, for many reasons. She took an entry level job and tried to be a bit strategic about the company she chose. (Close to home, opportunity for advancement and in her case she wanted flexible hours.These were the things she chose as important to her. ) Once she landed the job, she knocked it out of the park in every way imaginable. Of course, she eventually was recognized and got promoted, once informally and the second time formally.
      It probably took her a year and a half to two years to move along like this. She was patient with the process.

      FWIW, I think your wife is a very impressive person. She has pulled herself through a lot of crap. She’ll get this one, too, I can see it from here.

      1. zora*

        I just want to second the sentiment that your wife is an impressive person and a total badass!! She has gotten herself through so many obstacles, I am super inspired by everything she has overcome and gotten to where she is now! Wishing you both all the luck and let her know there’s one internet stranger out here pulling for her!!

    8. Merida May*

      Just to add to some of the other comments: if there isn’t a financial need for her to start paid work immediately beginning with volunteer positions might be a good first step to pad her resume and get her back into working in the current job market. She’s had some pretty rough circumstances to deal with health wise, and I would hate to see her get a job she really wanted and have the adjustment back into work mode catch her by surprise or agitate some of her health conditions in a way she wasn’t expecting. Maybe a slow roll would be a good transition back in?

      1. DH of an ex-Dom*

        Thanks for all the suggestions so far. Responding here as a catch-all.

        She is definitely not looking to go full-bore, full-time into a management position, so I may have mis-used the Office Manager term. It was primarily there to explain what she HAS done, and would like to do again… eventually.

        Current thoughts are to look for part-time (and temporary) positions in admin, reception, etc. I hadn’t thought of an agency, so that’s a good avenue. I am fortunate enough to earn enough to support us all, so I very much like your suggestion of volunteer work to get experience and fill her resume.

        See, that is the main question — which, I admit, I buried somewhat. How do you make a resume when you have no experience in 16 years? Does anything from that far back ‘count’ … even in a cover letter? My just-graduated-HS 18 year-old’s resume looks more filled out! Should her adult ed go on there? Any of her University?

        Loudly heard that the medical stuff stays off, as do the kids. Thanks for the advice so far!

        1. Anonymous Poster*

          When I used to temp with a staffing agency during summers they never even wanted a resume if you’re going that route.

          Does the education really matter for what she’s applying for? Everyone kinda assumes you have a HS diploma, so it doesn’t seem relevant, and this is a sales document.

          The past jobs do matter because it shows she has demonstrated skills in the past, even if they’re far in the past. Don’t do gimmicky family achievement resumes, because they don’t work, but do put the past jobs on there. Address on the cover letter that she’s now looking to return to the workforce after a hiatus of being a stay at home mother, and highlight the skills she’s demonstrated in past jobs. The medical issues and whatnot… well, you could say something like, “After taking time off to deal with family issues, I am now ready to return to the workforce. Given my past experience with x doing things such as y, z, and w, I believe I’d be a great fit for your company as a .”

          The university could go on as education with a date in the future, but again remember your resume is a sales document, so only if it applies or matters to the position.

          Good luck!

        2. athiker10*

          I recently looked over resumes for interns and for a non-management position. I would include the Adult high school. I’m not sure how the university classes might be denoted. Maybe include strong skills at the top? And start with a steady volunteer gig that she can include at the top with maybe a line between that and the older jobs to say that she stayed home with the kids in the interim. Include old positions that have relevant skills learned? I’m definitely not an expert, so I’m wondering if maybe she can get away with being vague about the employer since it’s so long ago?

        3. Ama*

          I have no idea where you’d find such positions listed these days (this happened pre-internet job hunting), but when my mom went back to work she found a part-time receptionist position for a local tennis club in the paper. Lots of rec center type places need part-time staffing for their front desk because they both need someone there all the time and they often don’t have the budget for a full-time person who would require benefits (or sometimes they do have enough for one full-time person but need someone to fill in on the hours not covered by them). She had a little work experience when she applied because she was a substitute preschool teacher but she had virtually no office work experience at all. But she could work the hours they needed so they were happy to bring her on “temporarily.” (I think places like that expect pretty high turnover so it doesn’t bother them as much to try people out.) Your wife would probably have more relevant experience than my mom did at the time.

          “Temporarily” turned into her still being there, more than 20 years later, and she even ended up taking up tennis because the other employees there kept asking her to join them.

        4. RainyKeybord*

          About 5 years ago I returned to work after staying at home raising kids for 10 years. I had work experience from way back, but everything else was volunteer related – leading fundraising, PTA leadership, etc. I totally relate to the blank resume dilemma. The key to my success finding a job was working my network. I had coffee, tea, wine, etc with anyone I could think of to let them know I was trying to get back to work, what I was looking for and the challenge of finding a job after so many years. Eventually that footwork paid off via a friend of a friend who took a chance on me. We had coffee and I was able to make a personal connection before they even saw my resume. At that point, the resume was a mere formality. I was brought in as an independent contractor (low risk for them). After a year I was converted to a hired employee and have been moving up in the organization ever since. Your wife sounds like a rock star and maybe there’s a job opening waiting for her somewhere in her/your network. Good luck!

      2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        I think that volunteering could be a good idea for several reasons. First, it might help her connect with people who could serve as references. Second, admin work has changed DRASTICALLY in the past 16 years – lots of companies don’t do paper filing or, say, dictate letters. Being quick and comfortable on the computer is pretty essential. She may need to update skills to be competitive for even entry-level admin positions. Nonprofits tend to be much for patient with volunteers than with employees. How are her computer skills?

        I agree with others who’ve suggested that the whole break be explained as being a stay-at-home mom. That is unlikely to arouse suspicions or lead to intrusive questions.

        1. DH of an ex-Dom*

          Computer skills are good – not crackerjack, but solid word-processing/typing skills. Some excel, no powerpoint. Also no prejudices or fears w.r.t. tech (which some out-of-the-workforce-since-last-century people may have), and she picks things up very quickly.

          Plus, I’m extremely technical in my job and hobbies, so can assist with learning anything that doesn’t require an instant turnaround.

    9. Female-type person*

      My mom returned to the work force in her mid-50s, newly divorced and newly sober. She hadn’t worked outside of the home since the mid 1950s and was very wobbly in terms of confidence. Temp work was a life-saver for her. If you go into one office, you feel like an idiot because you don’t know how to use the copier or the phone system and you think you are the problem and your confidence takes a hit. If you are in multiple offices, like you are as a temp, you quickly realize NOBODY knows immediately how to use a strange copier or a strange phone system, and has to learn. This gave her recent experience and the confidence to eventually apply for “real” jobs. After a couple of years, she got a job that turned into a real nice situation for her as an office manager plus for an owner operated business. I think it is easier for a woman with children to explain a job gap (leave the health out of it, for sure) and I think now that her health has improved, she can take her time to find a really good situation that makes the most of her abilities.

    10. Kittymommy*

      Yeah, as others said the gap is easily explained by staying home to raise the kids. I also think due to the gap her previous employment won’t come up as it was awhile ago. Temping/part time is the best way to go and rethink the manager type positions for now. That may be her work history but it’s outdated. Her capabilities might allow her to move into that but I would think it’s unlikely a company would bite her straight into management with that gap. I also wouldn’t mention the kids as special needs, you’re right as it’s not relevant. Also don’t bring up the health issues. As someone who had very similar issues, no one in my office wants to know or cares. Later down the road, after she’s hired, FMLA may be able to come into play.

      Good luck to your wife. You seem like a great and supportive husband.

    11. Miss Elaine E.*

      Just jumping in to give kudos to the OP (and the lady in question). You, OP, are awesome for giving her so much support and for caring so much to ask the question here! I’m sure she owes a lot of her success to your help!
      That’s not to denigrate the lady’s perseverance and fortitude either. As other posters have said here, she’s survived an awful lot and has surely gained a lot of qualities that will make her an asset wherever she lands.
      Praying for the best possible outcome for you both!

      1. DH of an ex-Dom*

        Thank you, from us both. She *is* an awesome person — completely different from me in (so) many ways, but we share a core philosophy and sense of humour. Like many Survivors, she has esteem issues and doesn’t think she is as smart/capable as she is. It is a new experience for her to be able to count on her body being capable Every Single Day, and not having to be so miserly in rationing her ‘spoons’!

        (Wandering off topic… If that last sentence made no sense to you, go read this article:
        https://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/
        TLDR – Wikipedia summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory
        The ‘spoon’ concept went a long way towards helping me see the world from her perspective, and it has made an impact on everyone I have ever shown it to. Such a great teaching tool for those of us blessed with health to gain some insight into Just. How. Hard. everyday things can be for those with chronic pain/conditions.)

          1. Another CPA*

            It’s come up here before and has become a not uncommon reference. It’s an analogy that’s so easy to understand.

    12. Life after Recruiting*

      Great advice by commenters and I would agree with all of it. In case no one mentioned it, for the love of Pete, please make sure her social medial is locked down right ( or public) or does not make mention of her past work in the adult industry. Lots of employers check social media.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        I feel obligated to say that there might not be judgement (obviously locale-dependent) about her past jobs, especially since she worked for a legitimate business performing a legal service, and her job was based in tasks for administrative purposes as well as several increasing safety for other staff. It makes sense to keep your social media private for lots of reasons, especially if there is anything sexually explicit there, but just mentioning her previous work history shouldn’t read as shady to reasonable people.

  2. Feeling down*

    I need inspiring stories I got laid off and then scrambled to get a contract job which is a 40% pay cut with no benefits so maybe more like a 50% pay cut. I feel like I’ve taken a huge step back in my career even if this job is temporary.

    I would love to hear stories about your career hiccups or failures and how you bounced back!

    1. Mint Chip*

      I was fired from my first post-college job. I did retail for five years after that. I moved with my husband to a new city, got a job with a family friend in a completely unrelated field. Worked my way up into a more specialized area in that field. That department was then completely eliminated. I found another job in that field at a different company. After a year and a half, a third of us lost our jobs due to lack of work. I went back into retail for a while, then finally landed an entry level job in another completely different field. Got a promotion after 7 months. Feel like this is finally where I belong, where all my skills come together and I feel good about the work. I’m 35 and about 10 years older than most of my coworkers at my level, but I don’t mind at all!

    2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      I left a good job for what I thought would be a great opportunity at a startup. It was a huge mistake and I was miserable. I made it clear in my interview that if they expected 60/70/80 hours a week I was not the person for the job. They promised work life balance was important. Then shamed me for not working “as hard” (read – as long) as everyone else. I was laid off due to “funds depleting”, but really, the fact that I was the only one with a family and refused to work 80 hours a week is why. I got laid off right before my daughter turned 1. I was a mess and was terrified I had made a huge mistake by leaving my previous job.

      I ended up finding a job that pays more, allows me to actually do the things I like with very little of what I don’t, with a great commute and awesome coworkers. I would never have found this job had I not gotten laid off and been actively looking.

      My husband got fired from a restaurant job, was unemployed for a long time, got a job at a car dealership he hated, quit that because they wouldn’t let him have time off to come to me with Dr’s appointments (I was pregnant) was unemployed again for a while, then found a work from home job. So, it can take time, and it doesn’t always happen the way you think. But it can happen.

    3. K.*

      In 2015 I was laid off from a job I hated (I wasn’t upset to leave; I was upset to leave on their terms). In the aftermath, I did a couple of contract gigs, but there was some financial struggle in there too. I’m currently doing a long contract to hire somewhere where I’m really happy. I like the environment, the people, the work … it’s a much better fit. I have no doubt that you’ll land somewhere that works for you too. The fact that you’re staying in the work force is going to help you, I think.

    4. ThatGirl*

      I got fired from a job about 10 years ago, in the field I thought I wanted to work in the rest of my life. I worked retail for about six months before getting a contractor position in a different field that used related skills. It’s been nearly 9 years and while it took a while, I’m full-time now with good benefits, and from the get-go I was paid better and had better hours. The job is not glamorous but I’m good at it and on a totally different career path now that turned out to be really good for me.

    5. Can't Sit Still*

      I was laid of in January 2009, was unemployed for over a year, found a truly toxic job and held on there for 3 years, ended up quitting because it was so incredibly toxic, contracted for 4 years because I wanted to change industries, initially at a 40% pay cut, gradually worked my way back up the pay ladder, and have just accepted a permanent position with full benefits and a pay increase to the point where I’m making more than I was when I was laid off in 2009. I also went back and finished my bachelors during this time. It’s been a long slog, and I don’t know if I will ever get back to where I was in 2008 as far as savings and retirement go, but I’m pretty happy now.

    6. Nervous Accountant*

      In Feb 2013, I was fired from what I thought was an amazing accounting opportunity that I had gotten through a temp agency. I was still new to the field so my skills were lacking but a lot of the issues were personality related :( I had been struggling for a very long time with a lot of things, so to be jobless in the middle of tax season was a huge blow to my already low self esteem. I spent almost a month in bed moping and down. Eventually I got sick of the self pity party.I knew that tax offices weren’t going to start hiring until Octoberish, so between April-October I took advantage of my free time by going to the gym, studying for professional licensing exam and occasional part time work, and kept busy in my personal life as well (I look back on those days with extremely fond memories now).

      In October, I started applying for jobs, and went on a few interviews; I started an internship at a nice place, but another company had gotten back to me, so I gave my notice and started working at the new company (where I am now). That was in Jan 2014, a whole lot has happened since then, but I’m really happy where I am now and I can safely say I “bounced” back. It was NOT easy, and it’s taken years to finally feel accomplished and proud but…..I just think of it this way…4 years ago I was in such a bad place that when I lost a job I felt like my already small world was ending…..and I feel like I bounced back.

    7. Former Usher*

      I’ve commented here before about this, but I left a good job for what sounded like a good opportunity elsewhere. A little over a year later, my position was eliminated and I was given a choice of two months severance or staying on with a demotion and 30% pay cut. I swallowed my pride and stayed.

      About five months later I found a new job. It didn’t pay quite as much as I was making before the pay cut, but it was a huge improvement. Two and a half years and three raises later, I’m earning more than I was before the pay cut, and I was recently given a very prestigious company award.

      Hang in there, and write back with your own success story later!

    8. AVP*

      I had the world’s most disastrous post-college run of jobs. 3 that were meant to be temp but all ended terribly with awful references, followed by one that was meant to be a two-year temp position that ended after 2 months, also no reference. It was all a big confluence of issues – me being stupid and not understanding how jobs work, trying to break into an industry that is known for taking advantage of young people, drinking way too much and being very broke…anyway by the time that last one ended I was basically living on someone’s couch borrowing money because I was too depressed and stressed to get my s*t together.

      Anyway after a few months of that I managed to get a job that at the time I thought was “beneath me” in terms of salary and benefits and duties, but was a real in to what I thought I might want to do. Basically I got really, really lucky because the company was run by smart people who liked what they did and weren’t looking to exploit anyone, and were really committed to training people properly and bringing them up through the system. I’ve been here for 9 years now and now I run the place (and make a healthy living, although that took 3 years of stretching to get to).

      I don’t know if I have any take-away lessons, per se, but finding a company where people treat others right and are serious about professionalism and quality was a huge eye-opener for me, and it turned out to be worth the lowered salary. I’m not saying that you’ve found the right place, but that what sometimes can seem like a step back can be a step in the right direction.

    9. Jean*

      I was fired from my last 3 jobs – mostly for attendance related issues. (I’ve been dealing with multiple health problems since about the late 90s.) I’ve been in my current job for over 2 years, I’m working 30 hours a week which is so much better for me health-wise, and I’m making the highest salary I’ve ever made.

    10. LQ*

      I got laid off during the big 2008-2010 recession, I had to help shut down the nonprofit I worked for and believed in. Like you I took a 40% pay cut with no benefits and a WHOPPING step back in my career to a job I knew I’d hate (I was right) and a brutal commute (5 hours a day+), then that job had a temporary shut down. (I got paid more on unemployment because of my previous job than I did at the new job!)

      BUT! Even though the job wasn’t a great fit, I treated it like it was a temporary thing and a potential stepping stone (though I was out hunting other work all the time too, I just though I’d get good references from the place I was at). I did make it clear that what I was doing wasn’t my ideal skillset and that while I was great at the thing I was doing (I made a LOT of widgets!) I would be exponentially more awesome at something else. They moved me into a different area in under a year. It was a REALLY long year. But I’ve gotten 4 promotions in 6 years and another on the horizon. I’m interested, engaged, and happy with my job. I walk to work. The pay is finally more than what I made at my old job, but if I’d jumped to a different org I could have increased that more along the way I’m pretty sure. The benefits are better for the most part and I’m in a much better place. The biggest thing for me was working really hard to be the best I could possibly be at the pay cut job, and it sucked, it sucked so much. But it was worth it.

    11. Anon4Now*

      9/2015 – I left a full time job (I liked the job but did not like the toxic boss & co-workers) to go to school for a total career change. Last week on the job found out I had to have dental surgery. 2 days later our cat needed dental surgery ($800). Cat and I are doing well after having our dental procedures. I got an implant in 4/2016 and insurance paid for a portion of all the dental procedures.
      10/2015 – my spouse was told that his job would be eliminated effective 12/2015.
      11/2015 – landlord told us that she wants to sell the condo. We can buy it or please move out before end of lease on 2/2016.
      12/2015 – We moved to a new apartment (much better compared to the condo)
      12/2015 – Spouse got a job lead from a former co-worker, met with the recruiter, interviewed, got the job with a start date of 1/2016.
      Today – spouse loves his job and he wouldn’t have found this job if his former job was not eliminated. And I am going to have my program certification in 2017. Very excited!
      It was not easy to get to this point yet we are doing much better compared to what was happening in our lives in 2015.

    12. RebeccaNoraBunch*

      I was fired from my first job out of college/grad school in March 2009 after working there for a grand total of 4 months, and after job searching for more than a year before that. I was doing customer service, essentially, at an academic institution. Long story short, they brought in a new director for our department to “trim the fat” and it very quickly became an extremely hostile work environment. I was also still on my probationary period so one day I walked in and was escorted upstairs by my backstabbing, predatory manager, and fired. I carried everything from my desk across the campus to the parking deck in six plastic grocery bags, sobbing.

      It took me 5 months after that to find even part-time customer service work, and when I did, it was with an outsourcing company and I was taking calls from very unhappy customers. I was with that company as a contractor for a year, where I vastly improved my phone skills. I had a couple other short-term contract positions in call centers after that, and ended up landing in another field (still on the phone) in 2011 at a behemoth media company. I was finally making a decent salary and had benefits, even though most of it was in bonus rather than actual salary.

      Long story short, I took that as a huge opportunity and worked my tail off. After a year I transitioned to another company and took a pay cut just to have less stress, but it was not enough in terms of salary or growth potential, so I networked there…and in 2013 made the move to my current company. I’ve been promoted 3 times since 2013 and gotten 3 raises, with another bump on the horizon.

      I’m making almost double what I made at my first job 8 years ago, and I love my role. It’s a practically perfect fit. It wasn’t easy and it took a lot of hard work and tenacity on my part, but it can be done. My best advice for you is never to say the words “that’s not my job.” If something needs to be done and you can do it well, ask if you can do it. More experience is always better and it shows your abilities. You will eventually be recognized for all you can do and your willingness to be flexible and work hard.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        My best advice for you is never to say the words “that’s not my job.” If something needs to be done and you can do it well, ask if you can do it.

        I couldn’t agree more with this. I began working at a law firm six years ago in an admin-like role, but I knew I could do more than the client reporting they had me doing. So anytime our various paralegal departments were behind (which was often), I would volunteer to assist them with drafting assignments, affidavits, dismissals, preparing MDJ’s, whatever they needed. Then I created my own job within my own department, then was officially made a paralegal – seven months before leaving for another company where I would make 31% more than I was making at the firm.

        I’ve been at the new company now for a little over three years, was promoted twice, and last year I made almost double what I made at the firm. (I’m looking for a new job, but that’s a whole different story.)

        None of this would have happened, though, if I hadn’t been laid off from my first job after graduating college. I was an admissions rep at a for-profit school (not my dream by a long shot, but I had student loans to pay) making only $13 some odd dollars an hour with a position grade that would cap out at $14.50 – that lay off was a blessing for so many reasons. And it led me to getting my job at the firm (which ended up being terrible itself), which led to where I am now. My company’s not bad, I too walk to work everyday, and I’m really good at what I do and, thus, highly respected in my field.

        You too can bounce back, I promise.

      2. Lab Monkey*

        I’m pretty sure what happened, though, is you were working hard at a NY job, making dough but it made you blue. And one day you ran into Josh, so you decided to move to West Covina, CA.

    13. Hazel's Coffeepots to Go*

      tl;dr: The arc of my career hiccups/failures and bounce-back is a bit long, but has worked out VERY well so far.

      Early 2007: 6 months after leaving a 14-year stint with Company A to finally finish grad school, I’m hired back in a different but related role, helping implement a major new software package to be used in the dep’t I’d recently left. This is a term appointment, to last only until the new software is implemented. Starting salary: $45k. Final salary (following some very limited, low-key negotiation when they offer to extend my initial appointment): $59k.

      Mid 2009: The software is implemented, and NO ONE is hiring, either at Company A or anywhere else in my area. I network and conduct informational interviews like mad, send out a ton of applications, go on a reasonable number of interviews … and collect unemployment for 6 months.

      Early 2010: After an informational meet & greet with a director at Company B, he offers me a temp job in the same field I’d worked in at Company A, albeit at a lower level. I accept, for $36k (still more than unemployment). Within the next few months, I pick up a few part-time contract and seasonal jobs in or tangentially related to my industry.

      Mid 2011: Temp job @ Company B finally wraps up. There’s a long-term position available, but I don’t apply, after getting fairly clear signals from my boss that I probably wouldn’t be hired anyway. I continue with one of my contract jobs, for Company C, and collect unemployment during periods when there’s no contract work available. I continue to network, send out applications, and go on the occasional interview, but nothing pans out. While I try not to take it personally, this gets discouraging. The thanks-but-no-thanks, no-interview-for-you form rejections from the dep’t I used to work for at Company A really sting.

      Mid 2012: After more than a year of doing off-and-on contract work from home for Company C, they offer me 2 weeks of full-time work at a client site … 3 states away. I have a spouse and a middle schooler at home, so I hadn’t really considered travel-based jobs, but hey — I need the money, and it’s only 2 weeks; if it turns out I or my family can’t stand my being away, I go back to the work-from-home stuff once the 2 weeks are up. 2 weeks turns into 3, and then they offer me another full-time, on-site assignment: this time, for 2 months. After talking it over with the spouse, I accept. I travel home every other weekend; the spouse & kid visit at least 1 weekend each month, and all 3 of us fall in love with the city, to the point that I expand my job search to include companies here. For the next year, Company C keeps me working almost constantly, usually on the road (though I am able to commute to a company 90 minutes from home for 4 months … in the winter, in the Northeast). I’m making about $50k, though I’m an independent contractor and need to pay self-employment tax. However, they don’t offer benefits, and I’m never sure of a job beyond my current contract. I continue to send out resumes and go on interviews, but am able to be a bit selective since I *am* still working for Company C.

      Mid-2013: After turning down a few offers because the combination of salary, commute, and/or working conditions aren’t what I’m looking for long-term, Company D offers me $68k to do similar work to what I’ve been doing for company C … but as an employee with benefits, rather than an independent contractor, and with consulting and process improvement added to the mix on top of the industry-specific temp work. The downside is that it’s still a lot of travel, and I’d have to live with that for the next few years instead of telling myself I can stop at the end of each project, but at this point, we’ve figured out as a family how to make the travel piece work. I take the job.

      At first, Company D is a great place to work. It’s challenging, my coworkers are fantastic (which is key when you’re not just together from 9 to 5, but sharing a rental car and staying in the same hotel), and I’m learning a lot. Then, 9 months in, the president of D sells us to another company. Everyone keeps their jobs at the same salary, but our benefits take a big hit. I wait and see for a while, hoping some of the downsides of the merger will prove to be just temporary growing pains, and will be offset by improvements in other areas. They’re not. About a year after the merger, working conditions have deteriorated significantly, *and* the volume of work we have coming in and in the pipeline is dropping off fast. I stop deleting emails from recruiters unopened, and start responding to those that sound promising.

      Mid-2015: After a few months of conversations and phone interviews with several different recruiters and companies, Company E offers me a new consulting job — helping clients in my industry use the same software I’d implemented at Company A almost 8 years ago. With monthly bonuses on top of a $130k base salary, I just about double what I was making at Company D, so I take the job (and still have it).

      Sooo … it’s been a long and winding road, but I’m in a much better position (both professionally and financially) than I was when I left Company A at the height of the Great Recession, and it turns out that the flat-out rejections they sent me in the interim were probably the best thing they could have done for me.

    14. JHunz*

      I was fired for cause (performance) several years ago. I had been miserable and underperforming there for some time due to a combination of horrible management structure – management by burnout attrition is not how you build a strong team – as well as being assigned a bunch of work that was boring and high-stress but carried zero recognition with it. I didn’t realize how smothered I had felt until I walked out of the building, but I was still shocked and worried how I was going to keep us on our feet.

      Cue the frantic job search. Among the many jobs I applied to was a position that was the most interesting sounding posting I’d ever seen, for a position in a gaming peripheral company looking for a senior engineer to start an internal software team. I was clearly unqualified from a years of experience standpoint, and definitely wasn’t ready to be in an architect role. I still felt compelled to apply just on the off chance that something could work out. It was pretty nerve-wracking to honestly explain what had happened with the last position, but I felt like trying to lie would just blow up in my face. Long story short, I didn’t get the senior engineer role he was advertising for, but I was a good enough candidate that he hired me as his first team member regardless. My five-year work anniversary is Monday.

    15. Morgan*

      I became a temporary for a company I wanted to work for March 1999. When the department had an opening, I applied and thought I was going to be hired. While on probation, was called into HR about a discrepancy on my application. I checked “no” when asked about a recent traffic ticket. Had forgotten about a recent ticket which showed up on my background check. They thought it was intentionally and I had proof it wasn’t. They fired me and I cried for a week. That was Sept 1999. Then went to work temporarily for a utility company at almost $2.00 less Oct 1999. Became sick with the initial onset of what was multiple sclerosis. That was November 1999.

      Was on medical leave until March 2000, but was feeling better and secured assignment with current employer in Feb 2000. Been there ever since – 17 years. Guess things work out the way they’re meant to.

  3. Sad*

    My boss got let go today. I cried after it happened. I feel so bad about it. He was let go for lying and misusing his position. He had promised someone a raise in the future, and months later told this person to come out to dinner to discuss a ‘career opportunity’ (business dinners are common in our field). The business dinner was really an MLM pitch, this was career opportunity he was talking about. My boss also did a similar thing to an intern before this, promised a full time job and then took them to dinner to pitch the MLM stuff instead. The person he promised a raise to went to HR and the story about the intern came out shortly after. When they tried to leave the pitch, he told them any promotion or full time offer was off the table if they left. I was asked what happened because I set up the MLM presentation and business dinner. In my defence I didn’t know my boss brought them to a pitch under false pretenses, I thought they knew going in. My boss asked me to lie to HR and offered me money if I did. He told HR the MLM thing never happened and the intern only piggybacked on the other claim to get a full time job. I couldn’t lie. My boss called me an ungrateful traitor when he got escorted out. I know I did the right thing but my boss gave me a chance when no one else wanted to. He supported me going to college at night and let me work a flexible schedule. He paid me way more than what an assistant makes in this area. I feel awful about all of this. The manager let me go home early today because he knew I was upset. I’m on the train now trying not to cry. I feel so sick right now.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Oh wow, that’s awful. It sounds like your boss made some very bad decisions, but also that he supported you above-and-beyond. It sounds like you did the right thing, but I can understand why it would hurt. I’m glad you’re getting to take some time to process. I hope you can do something nice for yourself, even if it’s just curling up for a nap and being sad.

    2. MWKate*

      I’m really sorry that happened to you. What your (ex)boss said was inappropriate and cruel. Hiring you for a job, supporting your personal educational goals, and paying you for doing your job does not mandate that you cover up his gross abuse of power. You did absolutely nothing wrong, and the fact that you told the truth shows integrity – not that you are a ‘traitor’.

      1. straws*

        This, and it’s possible that his supporting you is what he was relying on when he asked you to cover for him. Someone being nice to you does NOT obligate you to compromise your own integrity or risk your own job.

      2. Whats In A Name*

        Yes, I was going to comment the same thing almost word for word!

        Sad, I know you are upset. I am so so sorry this happened to you. Please know that you likely got the support for continued learning and pay because you were a good employee and deserved it based on what you showed in the role.

        What your boss said is no reflection at all on you or your actions! It was cruel, unnecessary and untrue!

    3. Bend & Snap*

      I’m so sorry. I think the “ungrateful traitor” comment can really wipe out any guilt you feel. Nice people don’t do stuff like that.

      He was way out of line and you were just doing your job.

    4. Newby*

      You did the right thing! He sounds like someone who makes people feel indebted to them so that he can use them later. You are not a traitor and do not owe it to him to lie to HR.

    5. Rowan*

      This is a thing that comes up a lot in varying situations. We’re taught by the world of fiction that bad people are bad through and through. But in real life, people who do bad things often (always?) also do some good things. It makes it hard for our brains to deal with, because we have a natural tendency towards black and white categorization. Your boss is a shade of grey. There’s nothing wrong with giving yourself some time to grieve the good parts of him while also recognizing the not-good parts.

      1. Christian Troy*

        This is a good point. It’s very confusing in a situation like this to understand why a boss would take a chance on an employee but also put another employee in a difficult situation professionally.

        1. Creag an Tuire*

          Ex-boss sounds like the kind of person who values “loyalty” above all — which can sometimes manifest in good ways (“screw precedent, I’m going to help my employee out with night school if I have to slap HR up the head to do it”), but also in less-good (“If you’re really loyal to me, surely you’d want to be in on my side-hustle, right?”) and downright terrible (“How DARE you not help me lie to HR, you traitor!”) ways.

      2. SophieChotek*

        +1.
        Dear Sad you have my sympathy in a difficult and challenging situation.
        Kudos to you for doing the right thing, but I understand it is a difficult situation.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Excellent comment. Very seldom is a person all bad or all good. Most of us are a mixed bag but lean toward being good people most of the time.
        Your boss did some good things for you and you can always cherish that. But in the end, he was doing wrong and asked you to help. You had to say no, it was not a choice for you.

        It could be that he felt you “owed him”. Well, shame on him. That is not how this works, when we raise up new workers they owe us NOTHING more than just doing a good job. Hopefully, they will pay it forward at some point in the future. That is it! Proteges, “mentees” do not owe anything further than that. And most certainly they do not owe loyalty to a boss/cohort gone sour.

        This means you owe him nothing. You are fine here. Him, not so much. You can do things here. You can grieve his poor choices. You can vow to remember the good parts and pay that forward to someone else. You can also continue rockin’ the job you have.

        I am sorry this happened to you. Some times people around us make really sucky choices and we are forced to watch the train wreck unfold. It’s humbling, really.

      4. Retail HR Guy*

        Yes! This captures my feelings exactly about one of my previous bosses, the company president. Great guy. Believed in me, mentored me. Had me over for his Christmas dinners because he knew I had no family in town.

        Then he was caught by a house guest, having put hidden cameras in his guestroom shower. The house guest went to the police. Charges were filed. My boss plead no contest and was let go from the company.

        Very mixed feelings about everything. I can’t condone what he did, but I don’t feel like he was faking the good things about him either.

    6. Volunteer Coordinator in NoVA*

      I’m really sorry, that sounds awful. You’re not responsible for other people’s bad behaviors and just because they did something helpful in the past, you didn’t owe him unwavering loyalty. What he said was crappy and not fair to you so try and remember that you weren’t the person doing anything wrong. Hope you can take some time this weekend to relax and take care of yourself.

    8. AFRC*

      I’m so sorry, but totally agree with others. Sometimes people who are shady treat some employees well in exchange for their loyalty. You did absolutely nothing wrong!!

    9. LJL*

      I’m so sorry. You did what you had to do. You are a strong person of good character and compassion. What you did was difficult and I can’t blame you for feeling how you do.
      I hope that helps.

    10. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Whatever good he did for you, you already repaid him by doing your job well – and whatever lingering feeling of obligation you might have for him is outweighed by endangering your job and insulting your ethics by trying to get you to cover up his crappy little pyramid scheme indoctrination ceremony.

      I loathe MLM companies, and I think they should be illegal, their corporate charters terminated and their assets disbursed to shareholders. They’re predatory.

      1. Newby*

        Regardless whether MLM companies in general are shady, the bait and switch he pulled was extremely shady and definitely predatory. Making promotions dependent on participation in his side scheme is really really far over the line.

          1. Been There, Done That.*

            Once an HR recruiter at a college called me after receiving a resume I’d submitted for a job they’d advertised. She said it wasn’t about the job and proceeded to pitch an MLM she did on the side. I was startled–and mad, not least of all because I viewed this as a horrendous misuse of my personal information. I graciously declined, then called the college, found out who her boss was, got through to him, and told him what happened. I wish I’d followed up on the outcome but don’t know if they would’ve told me that.

      2. Observer*

        Could we please not derail? The issue has nothing to do with MLM – it would have been equally loathsome if the deal would have been a standard business opportunity or pressure to buy his products from a side business or anything else. It was a gross abuse of power, especially with the intern.

        1. Retail HR Guy*

          It’s the open thread. No reason commenters can’t start a side conversation about the suckitude of MLMs.

            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              Alison has shown herself very capable of moderating her own site. Just sayin’.

        2. Em too*

          I dunno. I think it adds an extra level here – it still wouldn’t be right if it was a less predatory side business, but it’s worse if you’re sucking someone into a pyramid scheme than if you’re just wanting to sell them stuff.

      3. Artemesia*

        This and to try to bully employees and interns into joining by threatening their job or permanent position if they don’t go along — monstrous. Glad the company had the integrity to fire him.

    12. Detective Amy Santiago*

      It is not your fault at all that you told the truth. I’m so sorry for what you are dealing with, but he is the one who made bad choices. Be gentle with yourself this weekend.

    13. Merida May*

      I don’t know… he’s not above threatening people into joining his MLM, the cynic in me wonders if all of those perks were him loan sharing you for insurance. I’m so sorry this happened to you, and you did the right thing by not lying on his behalf. It was a tough call to make and it just speaks to the strength of your character.

    14. NJ Lurker*

      Yeah, that’s just appalling. If there were any justice the guy would be in prison for fraud, but he’ll get a new job real fast. Seems like if you have the words “Director” or “VP” in your title, no sin is too great.

    15. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      What an awful position he put you in! Many times the right thing to do is the hardest thing to do, and you absolutely did the right thing. Take care of yourself.

    16. Ama*

      So I have been in almost your exact position — I had a boss who seemed super awesome and supportive, and then one day he was fired for what turned out had been years and years of financial misconduct (he was basically exploiting a loophole in our reimbursement process to get double reimbursements). It was horrifying at the time and it really knocked me for a loop for several months afterwards.

      HOWEVER, as I got past the immediate trauma and disappointment I started seeing all the ways he had been trying to manipulate our work situation so I wouldn’t be able to catch him in his misconduct (he’d been at the company for 10 years and I only worked for him for the last 18 months). How after a couple of my attempts at doing his expense report for him he decided I didn’t “need” to have that on my plate and he’d just fill it out himself from now on. How when my coworker left and no longer had access to our budget system somehow my long-promised promotion to her position couldn’t happen for nebulous “HR” reasons, leaving him the sole person with access to our budget. How he tried to make up for said denied promotion by telling me I could charge a flight home as a business expense — I still remember the weird look on his face when I told him I had checked that out with the finance office and I didn’t see any way that would be allowable on our financial policy; I thought it was just confusion about the rules, but now I realize it was a test to see if he could get me to bend the rules the same way he did.

      In short, you are better off. You did absolutely nothing wrong and your boss is a manipulative asshole. I know it’s hard to see that now but it will get better, I promise.

        1. Ama*

          I almost did — they ended up shutting down our department but I was rolled into another one (which was a terrible job in many ways because that manager and I would not have chosen to work together if we’d had a normal hiring process, but it at least gave me a paycheck during the 2008 recession). I think the fact that he’d done most of his misconduct in another department before taking over mine probably saved me; unsurprisingly while my coworker still had budget access he behaved himself.

    17. Observer*

      He didn’t help you because he was being kind – he helped you because he thought he could buy you. No one reasonable calls someone a “traitor” for refusing to lie for them in such a manner and matter. But, you someone is an exploiter or thinks they “own” someone, that changes the perception.

      All I’m trying to say is that you didn’t do anything improper, you are not in any way shape or form the cause of his problems, and no matter what you said he would probably have been escorted out. The only difference would have been in the outcome to you.

    18. Aphrodite*

      OP, I am truly sorry for your pain. But know this: it will fade, your life has just gotten better. If he had managed to ensnare you at all in this, it would have been awful for your career. You were saved by his getting caught.

      I hope your new manager is a good and thoughtful and wonderful person. It already sounds like it.

      And on a personal note: I would love an update from you a week or two from now, not just to know you are okay but (selfishly) for my own interest.

    19. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      I’m sorry this happened, and I totally get why you’re upset. Your boss asked you to lie and offered you money, which is so incredibly unethical, and could have also cost you your job if you did it and they found out. You did nothing wrong, you must do whatever you can to look after yourself. Sending a virtual hug….it will get better, and I’m sure the powers that be are noting that you did the right thing by telling the truth. Hang in there.

  4. Just for Reference...*

    I recently found out, purely by coincidence, that the supervisor at my previous job was let go. I also found out that the company recently changed all direct numbers. I am not in the least bit surprised as the company was acquired three years ago and there have been a whole lot of shake ups; but while I have no interest in looking for a new job at the moment, I know that my references for that company need to be corrected. Would it be wrong to use the cell phone number for the supervisor, and the senior colleague (she is still at the company) who are my best references for that company, even though chances are that by time I need references again, neither of them will be working there any longer? Would it be better to use a random human resources person, even though I have never personally met that person (they dumped all the HR staff I knew).

    1. Lily in NYC*

      This is something you should ask your references – they might have a google voice number they’d prefer you to use or something…

    2. Business Cat*

      Absolutely use the cell numbers of the supervisor and senior colleague who know your work! Hiring managers understand that your references may not stay at the same job forever. I would get in touch with the supervisor to get their new company and title wherever they move on to, but in your references you can make a note like this:

      Sally Supervisor
      Teapot Design Coordinator – Pot & Kettle, Inc
      (Formerly Supervisor of Teapot Design at Chocolate Teapots, Inc)

      I use cell phone numbers for the majority of my references even if they *are* at the same location. Most of them are away from their desks for a good chunk of the day and are more easily reachable by cell.

    3. Mrs. Norris T. Wagner*

      I have a similar previous workplace situation and provide my former supervisor’s cell phone number when listing her as a reference. As already mentioned, I did make sure this was ok with her first. Additionally, recently I was requested to provide email addreses for my references and did not have those for all of them – it was a good opportunity to check in with them which I would recommend doing on occasion especially if they may be contacted soon.

    4. Pup Seal*

      Funny, I found out last night from a friend that a boss at a previous job was let go too. Though the job was a server position back when I was in college, and I have never put him down as a reference.

      I’d reach out to your former supervisor and ask him how hiring managers can contact him. I wouldn’t use a random human resource person because s/he won’t be able to answer the hiring manager’s questions about you.

    5. BRR*

      Use those two references and when you’re job hunting you ask them if they will serve as references. If they say yes ask them what their preferred phone and email is for you to give employers.

    6. CAA*

      Your references are the people you actually worked for and with. Even after they leave, they should still be used as references as long as they’re willing and their knowledge of you is reasonably current. Use these people whenever you need someone to verify that you know how to do a job and that you’re a good person to work with. Always provide their current contact info. Most people nowadays seem to prefer to be contacted on their personal cell phone rather than at their employer’s number, but whatever the person acting as your reference wants to use should be fine.

      The random HR person is only for verification of employment. Use this contact if you are trying to get a mortgage or your new employer is doing a background check and wants to verify the exact dates you worked at a place. For this, just put the current company’s main phone # and let the receptionist direct the call to HR.

  5. margarets*

    So I had bit of job search weirdness this week.

    About a month ago, I got an automated email telling me I did not get a job I had interviewed for. The interview had not gone well – the interviewer hardly looked at me, clearly had no interest in anything I had to say, and hustled me out the door as soon as possible – so the email was no surprise.

    The surprise was the interviewer emailing me personally this week to explain why they chose someone else. In no way did I solicit this information. This is the first contact I have had with them since the interview, and in the interview I definitely did not express any interest in getting feedback or an explanation for whatever hiring decision they made.

    I’m sure this person has some rationalization for doing it, but it would all be based on assumptions and projections.

    I find it odd. Is it odd? I feel like one rejection email is enough, and sending another, more elaborate one a month later is overkill.

    1. Loopy*

      I think it’s very odd and I would be a bit put off by it. Usually I like to move on from job rejections and not dwell on them unless I feel I really need to evaluate what I’m doing right or wrong in a big picture sense.

      Not a fan of unsolicited feedback in this context.

    2. lcsa99*

      It’s odd but it’s possible the interviewer felt bad for brushing you off during the interview itself and felt a personal explanation would make you feel better. She was wrong but I can understand that line of thinking.

    3. MillersSpring*

      Sounds like the interviewer emailed you in a misguided attempt to provide feedback to those who interviewed. Which as you said is usually solicited. Maybe another interviewee asked, and he decided to contact all other interviewees.

      I hope he acted out of kindness and generosity, but yes, it feels like double rejection and unnecessary.

    4. Turtlewings*

      My guess is they didn’t realize you’d already received the form rejection, and thought you hadn’t been notified at all. I’d take it as an attempt at a courtesy.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      At least the interviewer has been consistent about being odd through out this whole process.

      Eh, maybe she actually like you and felt bad about going with someone else. It almost sounds like the decision had been made before you interviewed, hence the awkwardness at the interview. Then her conscience ate at her so she set the second email to say why.
      Unless the reason why was nasty or the email was snotty, I would just try to put it in a good light and let it go. Sometimes bosses put employees in predicaments that make root canals appealing.

      1. margarets*

        I just wish people would realize that their bad/weird/guilty feelings are their own and usually don’t warrant involving another person.

        For some reason this sort of thing has been happening to me a lot lately – someone who wasn’t all that great to me in the past contacts me out of the blue, apparently never considering that I was fine with NOT hearing from them. Blegh.

    6. Taylor Swift*

      You read plenty of people here wishing they could get feedback like this. Sure, it’s unusual. But if it’s not useful to you just ignore it.

      1. Taylor Swift*

        Also, I don’t think you should read it as the interviewer attempting to really double down on their rejection.

    7. Whats In A Name*

      Where is the person who earlier this week said every candidate should get objectionable feedback when not chosen?

      This is another reason (besides time suck for recruiter) this should not happen. It’s just odd and really a turn off.

    8. Trout 'Waver*

      The only way this makes sense to me is if the manager is under investigation for crappy hiring practices. I’d file this one under ‘bullet dodged’.

    9. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s an attempt to be courteous. That’s all it is.

      Lots of of people desperately want this kind of feedback, and the interviewer apparently is aware of that.

      1. Anna*

        If only the interviewer had also been as conscious of interviewees wanting to be taken seriously and paid attention to during an interview. :(

    10. voluptuousfire*

      That is very odd. I’ve interviewed plenty and received unsolicited feedback only once and it was really very off-putting. The feedback wasn’t actionable (it only really applied to their role) and it was given to me during a scheduled phone call in which they wanted to “talk to me about my candidacy.” For 12 hours I thought I potentially had a new job and got super excited. It was an awful letdown to not get the role and receiving the feedback was essentially insult to injury. The feedback made me feel that I just bombed so badly they felt they needed to give me reasons as to why I didn’t get it. In the end, it was a bullet dodged!

    11. MissGirl*

      Was she critiquing you or simply explaining the rejection? For instance, “We gave the job to another because he had x technical skill” is much different from “you need to work on this and not do this or this.” I’m applying to a lot of jobs right now and would love to have the courtesy of a reason beyond the form email. Tone and context matter.

    12. FishCakesHurrah*

      I think the month long delay between the rejection and feedback is very strange.

      One job I interviewed for called me to tell me I wasn’t their chosen candidate, but then they offered to set up a time to sit down with me and give me some feedback. I thought that was fantastic and extremely considerate.

    13. CanadianDot*

      I don’t know what kind of organization the job was at, but I’d wonder if there might have been a complaint to an HR department by a job candidate that prompted a review of the hiring practices?

  6. Loopy*

    What’s the etiquette for when you’re low level sick (think major sniffles/some sneezing/minor sore throat/being run down) and you *have* to be at work.

    I’ve been pretty up front with people in the- hey I’m sick but I have to be here today, no handshakes!- kind of way. I figure giving them a chance to flee my presence is the polite thing to do?

    1. TMA*

      I think that sounds like a good approach. Ideally, you could take the day off or at least work from home, but I understand that is not possible for everyone.

    4. Temperance*

      Lock yourself in your office, use hand sanitizer, clorox wipe the bathroom doorknobs/any doorknobs that you touch.

      1. Slight germophobe*

        Or just use your shirt sleeve to open/close doors…. I do this all the time anyway and this fall/winter I have yet to get a cold.

    6. Jocelyn*

      Yeah, I feel like just a quick “I’ve got a little cold going on.” will suffice.

      I’d also say excuse me after a string of sneezes/coughs. Might not help, but I don’t think it would hurt.

    8. Purest Green*

      I think placing all the visual cues on your desk (box of tissues, cough drops, hot beverage) is enough for a lot of people to get the idea.

    9. SarahKay*

      Agree with your plan; if you have to be there then just warn people so they can keep their distance. Regular use of had sanitiser, especially before going into shared spaces (bathrooms, etc). And when I’m in this situation I tell my normal lunch companions that no offence, but I’m off to eat on my own to keep my germs to myself. I feel like this way I’m not putting them in the position of being stuck with my germy self with them not liking to ask me to go away and keep my germs to myself.

    10. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      One thing I did recently that seemed to be appreciated (in addtion to your approach and the other great suggestions – lots of tissues, warning others, hand sanitizer, etc):

      I put a tub of those santizer wipes on my cubicle desk and made a point of wiping everything commonly touched down every couple of hours. People seemed to appreciate the effort.

    11. LK*

      Hand sani, box of tissues right at the desk. Taking some decongestant medication. Apologize profusely. Touch no one. (I work in a large high output law firm and this is the norm)

    12. Jean*

      I’ve put up a sign on my door a couple of times: “I have a cold – enter at your own risk!” Fortunately I actually do have an office with a door that I can keep shut, and I just try to keep my interactions with others to email or phone.

  7. Bend & Snap*

    I’ve stopped my job hunt after 6+ months of my ego getting ground into dust.

    Any tips on learning to love my current situation? It’s post merger, less opportunity, more negative environment than previously.

    But I just can’t take any more rejections righ tnow.

    1. INeedANap*

      Are there any steps you can take right now that will make you more attractive for your future job hunt? Certifications, classes, training, volunteering, anything?

      I have found that when I just can’t face a task immediately, I can usually find the motivation to do something that will help make the task easier when I do get to doing it.

      It may help your immediate morale to know that you’re doing something to get out of your current situation, even if it’s not something that will bear fruit immediately.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Even some free online courses would be good. It gives you something to focus on and helps you improve your skills.

    2. Collie*

      Give yourself a break. Remember you don’t have to love your job. Mark your calendar for when you’ll start applying again. In the meantime, focus on self-care outside of work hours. Make a deal with yourself not to think about work outside of work hours (and change your clothes immediately after work — it helps). Remind yourself you’re putting up with your current situation in exchange for good pay/good commute/roof over your head/whatever it is that keeps you there. Remember nothing lasts forever. Sending lots of empathy. I’ve been there for two years, so I feel you. But we can’t give up!

      1. Another Lawyer*

        +1 on this. The last time I job hunted I was doing it so full stop that I was completely burned out by the end of it. I took a month off and was much more focused and refreshed and landed a great job not long after that

        1. Ama*

          This happened to me too! It was 2008-2009 (so absolutely terrible timing) and I had a completely unsuccessful 18 month search. I decided to take 3 months off, halfway through that period a good transfer option fell into my lap and I had a new job three weeks later.

      2. Collie*

        And I second doing some professional development if you can (free or paid if you can swing it/want to pay for it) in the meantime. It’ll keep your mind occupied when necessary and be an effort toward your final goal.

    3. T3k*

      I’ve been making it a point to accomplish one little thing everyday to deal with feeling down about job hunting. Like, read a book I’ve been meaning to, or finish a craft I’ve been putting off, etc.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Build yourself up in some manner, you have been draining and draining and it’s time to restock. This could mean taking a course, reading a book, or jogging every night. It can be anything that makes you feel like you are starting to replenish what has been zapped out of you.

    5. Bend & Snap*

      In some cases the jobs have been too junior, they can’t pay, or I’ve bowed out because of the culture or whatever.

      But I have 17 years in my field, 12 in agencies and the last 5 in a Fortune 200, tons of accomplishments and skills that people are seeking, and I can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong.

      I don’t think it’s my resume. It has to be something happening in the interview process.

      1. NaoNao*

        I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong per se.
        But one thing stuck out to me: the length of time in the field. That might be giving people the wrong ideas like:
        You’re not up on current/bleeding edge tools, techniques and software
        You’re not up with current trends in your field
        You’re *too* qualified, and will cost too much
        You’re at the edge of defacto age discrimination, especially if those almost 20 years were later, like starting at age 30 or so. If you’re working in advertising or marketing, from what I hear around, they prefer very young, fresh out of college types for a few reasons (pay less, the perception of being on the leading edge of trends, ability to understand core audiences, etc).
        Your experience in one area has “cemented” you and you won’t be able to bend to the new office’s culture/wants/product, what have you.
        I would take another look at the resume–edit tightly to accomplishments and ensure it tells a story of growing skills and responsibilities, larger clients and accounts.
        Maybe build a portfolio?
        Networking! If you’re at the level you are, with almost 20 years in the industry, I feel like (and I could be wrong) you should be getting your next job through networking with peers at your level.
        Consider consulting. You have a full time job, maybe start with taking on 1-2 freelance clients. If it goes well, start to build a following. That can be the focus for the next year, while you assess your next move.

        1. NaoNao*

          Oh, and manage that professional social media, if you’re not already. Make sure that LinkedIn profile is up to date, with a photograph, and you’re fully connected to as many people as you can. I got my last two jobs through cold-emailing the job poster through LinkedIn!
          Make sure you have a professional twitter handle and account, a professional blog of some kind is not a bad idea, and if you’re in a field where it might make a difference, Instagram and Pinterest accounts (like if you’re a fashion illustrator, advertising or marketing exec, photographer, stylist, etc).
          Include links to these sites on your resume to show that you are up to date and comfortable with the social media world.

          1. Bend & Snap*

            Thank you! I’m in marketing (public relations) so all of my social is polished up and I’m working my network. I posted here a few weeks ago that I went through 11 rounds of interviews with a Fortune 30 and then got rejected via text message with no feedback.

            These two things:
            You’re not up on current/bleeding edge tools, techniques and software
            You’re not up with current trends in your field

            Are what I’ve actively positioned against on my resume–my skills here are what got me hired in my current job and I’ve been able to grow them here.

            I’m a little worried it’s the lack of growth. I’ve been here 5 years but took a lateral move to get here, promoted to management 3 years ago, then we got acquired 18 months ago and everything went to hell and now I’m no longer a manager and my role shrunk. This happened to a lot of people due to how the new organization is structured but it blows.

            1. NaoNao*

              You know, I’m thinking about this because I recently helped my mom, age 61, with her resume after 16 years at the same job (doing the same thing!) and a few years in related industry jobs. One thing she focused on was her skills and experiences, which was good, but there was a real struggle to get concrete numbers (like reach, circulation, ROI–she’s an editor) and to pinpoint actual projects/accomplishments.
              Also, she tended to focus more on her career and her skills/accomplishments rather than “here’s how I’m a match”, which is subtle, but *could* come off like sort of…grande dame-y? I guess?
              She had also been in the industry *and* had a lot of side gigs, it was almost overwhelming to get the resume to tell a “story” that was strong and coherent.
              Marketing I think is hard–it’s hard to break into, it’s so dynamic, it’s very image and trend focused–it’s just hard!

              1. Bend & Snap*

                You know, this is really thoughtful input and I appreciate it. Liz Ryan writes for Forbes and talks a lot about the “human-voiced resume.” I updated the format to be more modern but didn’t change the tone of the content; it’s definitely traditional. Maybe it’s time for a total overhaul, from scratch.

                2. Aglaia761*

                  What does you cover letter look like? I think that’s where you’ll be able to show that you’ve kept up with trends in the industry and how you can provide value to their team.

                  I agree that you might want to look at your resume, but I think you should also revisit the cover letter as well

    6. Jules the First*

      Have faith!

      I hunted for six months, got lots of first interviews, but no nibbles. I stopped looking, and four months later I got five interviews, three offers, and a handsome counter-offer from my existing job.

    7. ms crankypants...*

      one of the things I did to boost my spirit while unemployed was volunteer at the food bank.
      reminded me it could be worse and people were almost always grateful & thankful for our efforts.

    8. The Rat-Catcher*

      I feel this so much, Bend & Snap. The logical thing is to keep looking for jobs, but I’m weary of getting my hopes up. Apparently my resume and cover letter are decent because I get interviews almost everywhere…the first time. So something in my interviews must be egregious, because I inevitably don’t get chosen and in future rounds of hiring with the same companies, I never make the cut again.
      I wish I had advice for you, but I only have sympathy.

  8. RKB*

    I work for a city dependent on the oil and gas industry. We’ve hit a pretty bad recession and as a result we made major cutbacks in our schedules to save money.

    Ever since, my coworkers have just stopped caring. I work from 4 to 11 pm and often find that nothing has been done when I’ve come in. I’m talking lost and found just left on the desk, two pamphlets about prices left, receipts thrown about the floor, etc. It’s starting to get super frustrating but I don’t know how to bring it up without sounding like a complete brat. (As in: so and so didn’t do these tasks, I managed to do all these tasks and let 1600 people into our facility. Oh and handled three emergencies.)

    1. Kyrielle*

      I might do it as a question, if there’s any grey areas. “Sometimes I come in, and (things are this way) – I assume the shift before me gets swamped. I’ve been assuming my priorities in this case are to (priorities in order) – is that accurate? I don’t want to leave things undone for too long, but I do want to make sure my focus is where you want it to be.”

    2. Jocelyn*

      Maybe you could approach your superior and lay out your concerns as “I’m having trouble getting all of my responsibilities taken care of because I often come in and find X, Y, Z and then have to take care of it myself. So now I’m dealing with having less time to do what I need to.”

    3. Taylor Swift*

      Are you sure it’s because they’ve stopped caring or is it because they have had to make changes too and no longer have enough time/resources to do the work? Definitely ask for advice on how to prioritize before you let yourself get too resentful about doing all the work.

      1. RKB*

        Oh, it’s the resentment. We work in a gym. So the tasks are really simple: for example, printing price guides means hitting “print” and then just letting them print. We have 5 people on the desk at all times. And from when I’ve checked the totals, they help about 200-300 customers from 11 AM to 4 PM (when I log in.) We do about 1700 customers from 4 to 11 PM.

        And yet — we can manage all these tasks. Just the other day I created 200 access cards for our indoor jungle gym (there’s a capacity limit so they take the access card and then return them when they’re done so we can keep track.) I dealt with a kid who broke his leg and our elevator breaking down. And none of our lost and found was washed and folded and logged from 5 AM to 4 PM.

        It’s so frustrating. I’ve come to the library attached to our building and seen them shooting the sh*t or just aimlessly on Facebook with no customers in sight. I’m going bonkers.

  9. Folklorist*

    Here is your much-delayed ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!!!! Go and do whatever you have been putting off and come back and brag about it!
    Go, go…there will be more entertaining Open Thread comments for you to read when you come back all triumphant and stuff. :-)

    2. Squeeble*

      This morning I took care of two things I’d been dreading first thing. Didn’t even get my coffee first. Now I can do my regular work and relax for the rest of Friday!

    4. MommaTRex*

      Thank-you! I just made an appointment for a mammogram. Not work related, except for getting that monkey off my back, freeing up a tiny slice of my brain for work matters.

    6. JustaTech*

      I finished a really dreadful document and sent it off to be reviewed. Who knew that writing instructions for using software could be so awful and time consuming? Then I sent a bunch more emails and set up a bunch of stuff for my next project and it’s like I’ve had another cup of coffee (or three!). Yay getting things done!

    7. Check Please*

      Not work related, but my toddler grabbed my giant organized sticker collection last night while I was doing the dishes and they all ended up on the floor.

      They’re now reorganized in a new, harder to dump out container and the ones that are no longer sticky or just not my style are either in the trash or in his arts and crafts bin!

      1. The Rat-Catcher*

        +100 because I have a preschooler and I rarely have the energy to do what you did and turn her messes into something good and productive.

    8. Arjay*

      I did! Not work related, but I called my apartment office about some work they need to schedule, and they’re only open during regular business hours, so it’s a chore sometimes.

      1. Bibliovore*

        This is my favorite Friday thread and I am so pleased to report the EVERYTHING that I have been dreading and procrastinating on that absolutely positively needed to get done by end of day Friday at work, got done.
        On Monday, I white boarded the list. Everyday 3 or 4 things were crossed off.
        On Tuesday, a volunteer came and helped me complete something that was hanging over my head for weeks.
        On Thursday the chair of my board took two things off my plate.
        The office kid spent two days scanning stuff for a powerpoint that I give next Friday at a conference.
        I have only 3 long range projects that I will pick up when I get back. whew!
        I just have a 1,500 word book review (book read, notes taken, just do it already!)
        And the powerpoint to complete this weekend.
        then 3 day vacation in Palm Desert! yes you heard me right- sunshine and mineral hot springs. I have three books, none of them required reading!!!!!

  10. Elle*

    In last week’s open thread I asked how much grades at university matter when it comes to the job market. It was really interesting to read the different takes and experiences on the topic!

    A lot of replies addressed how it was for candidates fresh out undergrad, so I was wondering if it’s much different for people who aren’t new grads.

    For instance, if someone who’s been in the workforce for, say 3 to 5 years (so mid-level-ish) decide to go back for a postgrad degree (whether to enhance their CV or to enter some specialised area) would their future job applications likely involve scrutiny of results?

    Part of the reason I ask is because in my experience many people doing postgrad tend to have more non-school-related commitments, like family/kids, and a lot of them study while working full-time, so it can be trickier to devote as much time as one would like to studies. Although I do notice that these people generally seem less concerned about actual grades than people who’ve gone straight into postgrad from undergrad, so maybe that’s some indication in itself.

    (Also I was surprised that someone mentioned Russell Group universities, I didn’t think RG was that really well-known, despite being compared to the Ivy League. In fact I’d be surprised if people knew which institutions – outside of Oxbridge – are even on that list! Then again that might apply for IL as well, in that only a select few seem to be acknowledged most of the time.)

    1. Leatherwings*

      I don’t think your postgrad grades matter much in hiring. Partly because most programs have pretty high standards for a “pass” right? As an undergrad, you can skate by barely doing work and graduate with Cs and Ds, but a C is failing in most grad programs so if you finish it’s because you performed at an acceptable level.

      1. Taylor Swift*

        But there is soooo much grade inflation in graduate programs! At least from my experience. But I haven’t found any employers who care at all about my graduate GPA.

        1. Leatherwings*

          Interesting! This was something I definitely thought was a bigger issue at the undergrad level.

        2. Anna*

          I didn’t really see that in grad school, but my program was small so it probably varies depending on the program.

        3. Wheezy Weasel*

          +1 on this. I’m hitting 90% and above in my graduate program grades while putting in about 40-50% effort that I recall from undergrad. Granted, I can write better and manage my time more efficiently after 15 years of working, but I’m surprised that we’re not being graded a bit more carefully.

    2. Jocelyn*

      I definitely think graduate grades matter less than the undergrad when job hunting. The reason undergrad grades matter so much is 1. It might be the only thing the company has to go on as the candidate has little/no prior experience in this field, and 2. More candidates.

      Positions that require graduate-level degrees or comparable experience are (probably) going to have a lot less candidates. They’re also probably going to be position that carry a little more weight (e.g. if an entry-level employee screws up, no big deal; if a senior-level employee screws up, that could mean a lot of issues). I imagine for these reasons, the hiring team will take a much closer look at experiences. As long as your grades aren’t straight-up bad, I’d imagine grades won’t be a big factor.

    3. Grits McGee*

      When it comes to postgrad grades, it’s like that old joke-
      “What do you call the person who graduated last in their class in medical school?”
      “Doctor.”

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        I’m splitting hairs, I know, but that joke always bothered me because med school graduates don’t automatically become “Doctor.” After graduation they still have to pass licensing exams, complete a residency (if they can even get one — every year hundreds don’t get matched), and then pass another series of exams. If they have a speciality, there’s more. It is totally possible to graduate medical school and still never be a doctor.

        1. JHunz*

          I’m splitting the hairs you split already, but doesn’t an MD grant the courtesy title of “Doctor” just as a PHD does, whether or not someone actually goes into practice?

          1. Onymouse*

            Splitting the hairs even more :) , I’d imagine it’s trickier because you could be seen as holding out to be a licensed medical doctor – that is, an MD who is not licensed can’t go around advertising themselves as an MD, because it would mislead and harm the public.

            1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

              Agreed. While the person may hold a doctor of medicine degree, I don’t think they can call themself a doctor without getting into an ethical gray area (and potentially legal). Also, a PhD is finished with their education, however a person with an MD must complete further study — so I’m not sure the two are really that comparable. Plus, there is the whole raging debate about whether a PhD should be called Dr. in most situations anyway. There are other doctorate degrees that wouldn’t call for the person to be “doctor” under most circumstances either — EdD, PharmD, DNP, LHD, JD…

    4. SarahTheEntwife*

      This might vary by industry, but from most people I’ve talked to, I don’t think grades typically matter at all once you have a few years of significant work experience behind you. I’d expect my degree to be confirmed especially if it’s essential for the position, and there might be some level of name-dropping potential (not really in my case but if I went to a sufficiently name-droppy school), but I’d find it very odd if anyone asked my schools for an actual transcript.

    5. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I went back to school for my master’s with about 3 years of directly relevant work experience in my field plus some assorted volunteer experience and gotta-pay-the-bills jobs. (I graduated in 2008.) I got great grades in grad school, but never put my GPA on my resume and was never asked about grades by interviewers or HR when I was hired, though I did have to provide transcripts as proof of my degrees. (My field requires a specific major and salary scales are based on education + experience, which is a standard practice in this field. Transcripts are just for the purpose of comfirming degrees and level of education.) I participated in several career events where I got the chance to talk to hiring managers in my field, and when asked most said they didn’t care about GPA – as in, they’re not looking for it, so include it or don’t as one wishes. Of course, this could vary depending on what field and where you work. (My master’s is from a private R1 university on the east coast, but not an Ivy, and I work in the same city.)

    6. Another Lawyer*

      FWIW, law school grades matter forever. I tried to take them off a few years out and was directly asked about them when I applied for a job, so I’ve put them back on my resume.

    7. Feathers McGraw*

      Russell Group is a very well known thing over here but while people tend to know what it is they don’t necessarily care if you went to one of those unis. It’s definitely field specific.

    8. FiveWheels*

      In my industry (law) not only are people aware of Russell Group rankings, but people responsible for hiring are very much aware of the relative prestige of every single law school.

    9. Kj*

      My grad school had no grades. Of course grades were optional at my super hippie undergrad college. I took them anyways- despite a few profs trying to talk me out of it as ‘it is giving in to the system.’ But grades weren’t even an option in grad school. I somewhat liked it for grad school- the focus was on our being competent not the best and we were assessed as competent to professional standards or not.

      1. Bibliovore*

        Okay- here is the thing, and it is only one person’s opinion.
        I have been a hiring manager for over 20 years. I rarely care one way or another what grades a person received in undergrad. I might give points to someone who had a 3.9 GPA. That said- if you went to a prestigious graduate school and you took a course in my very narrow specialty, I probably know of or worked with your professor. If you are a finalist for a position, I am going to call them. Lets say you screwed up in that class, that will tank your application.

        I teach graduate school classes. When someone is blowing off classes or always late with papers or doesn’t think I can tell that they winged their final oral presentation, I can’t help wonder that they don’t know that this is a small world and don’t they know that their instructor in their specialty would be a great job reference?

    10. Immy*

      In the UK people know which universities are in the Russell Group, abroad it may be more like how no one knows which universities are in the Ivy League except Harvard and Yale.

      The Russell Group is a group of research universities not just an athletic league as well so membership says more about the university than its location with the Ivy League.

  11. bassclefchick*

    Oh, my. I’ve heard of these, but never saw one myself until now. The most insane job description ever. Started out by stating if you’re good at herding cats, this could be the right position for you! Then included references to your Jedi skills. And the instructions were to send an email with a smiley face as the subject line so they could tell you read the whole job description and could follow instructions. All this for a basic receptionist job. Uh, no. Any serious candidate would have run screaming from that one.

    What’s the oddest job posting you’ve ever seen?

    1. Lily in NYC*

      Ugh. I’m surprised they didn’t call the receptionist position “director of first impressions”. It sounds like that type of place. I remember seeing an ad a few years ago to be Jennifer Lopez’ PA. It was ridiculous- you were on call 24/7, it only paid 50K and said that you might also have to watch her twins. She is known to be crazy cheap so you know she would find a way not to pay overtime.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Watch her twins?
        No. Hire a nanny, woman. PA is a totally different job. Somebody forgot what it was like to live on her block. :P

        I promise if I become rich and famous I won’t do that. Plus, I would pay way more than that and you would NOT be on call 24/7, jeez. I can do things for myself sometimes.

      2. Anon4Now*

        Last year I read a craigslist ad for a Receptionist / Administrative Assistant that stated the common job qualifications plus:
        – attach a recent photo
        – some sales experience is helpful
        – some night and weekend hours possible
        – dine with clients

    2. Bad Candidate*

      This just popped up on my “On this day” feed on FB the other day, I had shared a screen shot of it. Anyway, the title says “Entry level MEOW… Sales MEOW… Marketing MEOW… (Great City Location)” There’s no mention of cats anywhere else in the post, and it’s not for a cat shelter or pet business. My only guess is that whomever wrote it saw Super Troopers for the first time the night before.

    3. Justme*

      I got a questionnaire for a receptionist type job that had so many spelling, grammar, and formatting issues that it was impossible to fill it out without major editing. And it was a test, the company wanted to see if you would do it. I told them flat-out in the interview that I had thought the job posting was a scam because of that questionnaire.

    4. writelhd*

      The whole posting wasn’t odd so much as frustratingly vague, but this particular line stood out to me in a sea of vague as really taking the vague-cake: “Apply concepts to problems (of medium complexity.)” For an engineering position at a huge manufacturing company. Well darn, I thought I’d be applying concepts to problems of *moderate* complexity, so I’m glad they clarified.

      I also once saw a job duty that included the phrase “ingest data” in a government job posting, and that made me giggle.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Ingest! hahahahahahaa

        See, they need me to write stuff for them. But I could never get a security clearance, because I’m an extremely loud member of the Resistance.

        1. Sibley*

          I don’t know, as long as you’re polite? Then again, I’ve been doing my darnest to get into minor trouble on Twitter.

        2. Jadelyn*

          I actually made it onto a watchlist during the Bush years due to my active participation in protests and such. I was never arrested or anything, but when my brother went to join the military he got asked about me because when they did his background check I came up flagged, lol. I take it as a point of pride – if I could get away with it, that would be on my resume. :)

      3. GigglyPuff*

        I totally didn’t get that until I read Jadelyn’s post.

        But to be fair I work in digital librarianship, so that’s on most job descriptions I’ve seen.

          1. writelhd*

            Well huh! It was for a digital library kind of thing, so I guess that makes sense. From the outside I just thought it was a funny use of words.

    5. Perpetua*

      I don’ t know if they’re the oddest, but these two have been the most irritating lately. They were from the same company (tech one, quite popular in the area).

      The first one is along the same lines as herding cats – they advertised for the position of office manager (with some receptionist and HR support duties as well) under the name of “Babysitter”. The description included something along the lines of “taking care of 100+ outlandish geeks”.

      Then not long after that, they were looking for an HR assistant, calling it “A Shoulder to Cry On”, to “help a bunch of millenials with their special needs and goals”. Umm, nope.

      I thought both were marvellous examples of how to offend both your current employees and the person you want to hire, in one fell swoop.

        1. Justme*

          I pay someone $10 an hour to babysit my *one* geek child. But 1oo+ adults? Not enough money in the world.

      2. kittymommy*

        I’ve worked in office settings where “babysitter” would be a pretty accurate description. Not one I would use on an advertisement, but damn on point.

      3. General Ginger*

        “taking care of 100+ outlandish geeks”? Ugh, well, thanks for being upfront, anyway. Hard pass, though.

      5. Gail Davidson-Durst*

        Wow, insults everyone involved, Andy IMHO come see across as kind of sexist. Hard to believe the hiring manager isn’t picturing a man babysitting or wiping tears!

        1. Gail Davidson-Durst*

          Ugh, I had to come to the computer to fix all the mistakes in my reply:

          AND IMHO (let’s not bring Andy into this)
          comes across as kind of sexist
          hard to believe the manager IS picturing a man

          Lesson learned – no more commenting from my phone.

    7. Karo*

      I saw one within the last month that wanted you to mail or fax your resume to the person. It’s a position I’d otherwise want to apply for but I’m so flabbergasted at the thought of a company still REQUIRING paper resumes that I’m out.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        City jobs make you take a typing test. A TYPING TEST. Plus, in 2012, I took the state exam for clerical jobs and there was a question that asked you to identify the letter by which the floppy disk drive on a computer was designated. I’m like, “Old equipment much?” :P

        1. Cassandra*

          Also the bit where lots of computers had more than one floppy disk drive?

          -Cassandra, who rescues data from floppy disks as part of her job…

        2. FishCakesHurrah*

          Temp agencies still do this. Which is lucky for me because I type 100+ wpm and that gets me a lot of positive attention!

          1. Jadelyn*

            Lol, I got my current job through a temp agency, and I got an interview despite having no HR experience because the job was originally heavily data-entry-oriented and I scored 99 WPM with no errors. That typing test comes in handy sometimes!

        3. Bibliovore*

          Still with the typing tests? I am nauseated thinking about it. When I was in my twenties and job hunting, no job, and I mean no job interview (except retail) happened without a typing test. I would get anxious and nervous and totally screw it up. And what really pissed me off was that Mr. Bibliovore never ever had to take a typing test to get a job.

    9. Elizabeth West*

      This is an actual job and I suppose they have to advertise for it somewhere, but there is a listing on Indeed for Bunny. Yes, you heard me. (For Easter, you know.)

      The job description contains these gems:

      Never remove the Bunny head in public
      Make sure you are wearing the mittens and feet at all times
      Bunnies never speak
      Be sure your hands are visible at all times       (um, okay?)

      I posted a link in my chat room and someone said, “OMG apply! You might get free creme eggs!” That would be a nice perk but I hate them, LOL.

      1. Bad Candidate*

        I assume this is for Bunny at the mall similar to Santa? (I had a friend that did this type of job in HS, she was one of the bunny assistants) Anyway the hand thing is so that no one can accuse you of inappropriately touching a kid (and also so that you can’t do it if that’s your inclination).

      2. General Ginger*

        “Bunnies never speak” sounds so ominous!

        (huh, is that common? does the Easter Bunny really never talk to the kids?)

        2. Letters*

          Extremely common. It’s so that kids can’t tell the difference between different actors. This is the same rule for all the Disney characters, too — none of them are allowed to speak, partly because they chose who is what character based ENTIRELY on your height/weight (‘who fits in this awkward costume?’) so one year Goofy may be a dude, and next time the kid visits maybe Goofy’s a chick with a totally different accent.

        3. Elizabeth West*

          Yep, Letters has it right. The way they wrote it is hilarious though, because they left out that explanation. I assume the newly-hired bunny would get that in training.

    10. Can't Sit Still*

      Must be thick-skinned! No crying allowed in the office! The previous 3(!) incumbents cried all the time and the current incumbent cries every day. The job doesn’t pay well, but there’s lots of mandatory overtime on evenings and weekends to make up the difference!

      At least they were honest? The recruiter couldn’t understand why I wasn’t interested in this amazing opportunity! I had the nerve to ask her if that’s what they were willing to say in the req, what on earth was it actually like to work in that office? (I assumed lots of yelling, thrown objects and slammed doors, just for starters.)

    11. Cath in Canada*

      I saw one once that called both the CEO and the overall team “eccentric”. I decided that a company that had to use the word eccentric twice in a one paragraph job ad was probably a company that was too eccentric for me.

    12. FishCakesHurrah*

      An EA position that required the successful candidate to have a PhD in project management. It didn’t pay well and was with a university, who should know better.

    13. S.I. Newhouse*

      One of the civil service exams scheduled this year in NYC is for “Puppeteer.” Unfortunately, there’s no job description attached. But, a civil service puppeteer??

    14. Chaordic One*

      I’ve told this story before, but for a long time this same ad would pop up in various newspapers in the L.A. area.

      I’m looking for 2 people who I can work to death.

      It didn’t really say what they were looking for. I sort of guessed that it might be telemarketing, but it will forever be a mystery to me, unless someone here remembers the ad and applied for it.

    15. Johnster*

      Last week someone said that they saw an advertisement for something that sounded like it was basically a ticket agent job at an airport, but that might occasionally require you to “deice the plane.”

  12. MWKate*

    I asked this in a previous open thread, but it was buried pretty deep.

    I will be interviewing for graduate assistantships the beginning of next month. This will be for a higher education administration program I’ve been accepted to, and the position will be at various higher ed institutions in the area. I graduated with my BA 10 years ago, and so have some work experience, but in state government and banking.

    Does anyone have experience (on either side of this) about how these may go, differences between these and regular job interviews, and what might really stand out? Some of the positions come with full tuition waiver, so I’m really hoping to do well. I did receive some helpful suggestions from fposte in that earlier post, am just looking for additional insight.
    Thanks in advance!

    1. Grits McGee*

      I had a graduate assistantship for my MA program, but it was as a result of my application materials (no interview), so that’s not helpful.

      What kind of work would you be doing? Do you know if students generally enter these programs straight from undergrad or do they usually work first, like you?

      1. MWKate*

        The positions cover a variety of areas in higher ed (diversity offices, admissions, career counseling). I am hoping for something related to study abroad and international education since that is what I am planning on going into – but would be fine with anything really.

        Apparently most of the students are coming straight from their undergrad, but there are some older students sprinkled through as well as some professionals already working in higher ed coming for their degree.

        1. Grits McGee*

          I would definitely emphasize that you have professional experience since it sounds like you might be in competition with people just out of undergrad that just aren’t going to have that. Since some of the positions are admin- and regulation-heavy, you could tie that into your experience in banking and government.

    2. esemes*

      I had a grad assistanships that covered my tuition. I worked for about 3 years before I went to graduate school in a field quite different from my assistantship role. I know that there were definitely other individuals who were awarded assistantships that also had a gap between undergrad and grad school.

      Good luck!!! :)

    3. LJL*

      When I was a grad student applying, I treated them like any other job interview. It’s a good idea to become familiar with the school/office that you’re applying to. Be able to link your past experience with how it will apply there. Also, you may want to talk about your research interests and future goals and how that ties in to the assistantships you’re applying to. Good luck !!

    4. kbeers0su*

      I work in Higher Ed, and have interviewed Graduate Assistants for the past 10+ years. Some thoughts…

      It is more common for folks to be coming straight from undergrad into this kind of program and these kinds of assistantships. If you’ve been invited for an “interview weekend” at any of the schools, that’s a bit different than if you’re arranging the interviews on your own. The interview weekends are partly a way to allow you the ease of doing a bunch of interviews at once, and partly allows you to get to know classmates and faculty who will be in your program. If you’re going for one of these weekends, outside of the actual interviews, understand that you’re being watched and judged the whole time. So make nice with the other students, get to know them, don’t act competitive, etc. They not only are looking at individuals for positions, but also for the overall group dynamics for the classroom learning environment (because they’re cohort-based).

      With regards to actually interviewing, being out 10 years could help or hurt you. Honestly there are some schools, departments, and people in the field who will look for younger candidates because they’re typically more willing to work the weird hours needed for some of these positions. And there may be some concern about your ability to “connect” with students if you’re a bit removed from their age bracket. However, in other departments and areas you’re going to be an asset because your background is likely to show a capacity for a certain level of professionalism that most folks right out of undergrad have not yet developed. (Given that you’re thinking study abroad or multicultural affairs, I think you’ll be safe. It tends to be more Residence Life/Housing, Student Activities that are looking for the “energetic” (read: willing to work until 2am) folks.)

      As for how to sell your experience during the interviews, it really depends on the position. A general understanding of professionalism, ability to manage your own workload, ability to think critically, ability to synthesize various information about a student/case/situation- that’s all valuable no matter what. If you’ve dealt with legal stuff or any sort of regulations, and if you have any experience working with folks from other cultures (not sure if your government/banking work allowed you to do this) definitely bring that up if you’re interviewing for any positions with multicultural affairs, study abroad, or international students. And keep in mind that unlike serving clients, Higher Ed is not totally customer service oriented. We balance serving students with trying to get them to grow/think/do for themselves. So just make sure you’re keeping that in mind as you’re thinking about how to approach situations with students.

      On a side note, if you are going through an interview weekend, know that some assistantship positions that you may be interested in may not be offered during those weekends. The interview weekends tend to cover more traditional “Student Affairs” roles, where study abroad, international student advising, and other similar roles tend to fall under the Academic Affairs side of the house. So you may want to look around at the school(s) you’re interviewing with to ensure that you aren’t missing out on other positions in which you may be interested.

      Lastly, given that you’ve got more corporate experience be sure that you’re coming across as warm and friendly, and understand that most work with students is a lot less formal than what you likely experienced. We often text with colleagues and our students. Students wander in and out of my office regularly. I know a lot about my students that I’m sure most business folks wouldn’t know about their clients. They’ll want to make sure that you’re going to understand that cultural element of working on a campus and how it’s different than what you’ve been doing.

      1. MWKate*

        This is incredibly helpful, thank you so much for the detailed and in depth response. This is an interview weekend, but the interviews are prescheduled and determined for everyone attending and will apparently cover a variety of positions from residence life (which I indicated I am not interested in) to academic affairs.

        I appreciate the advice about being warm and friendly – luckily the company I am currently at (community banking) and state government were sometimes but generally not super formal. I live in the upper Midwest and it seems to be a cultural thing to assume a very friendly professional attitude. Hopefully that will translate well.

    5. Whats In A Name*

      When we used to interview GAs for enrollment-related positions (admissions/financial aid mainly) we did require a presentation but would let them know up front what was expected in the presentation.

      For every job (FT or GA) we had a hiring committee made up of various departments and asked a lot of questions about interacting with peers, different thoughts on working with students, and towards the end of my career in academia a lot of questions specifically related to changing dynamic of having to deal with difficult parents instead of students about student records.

      I would definitely recommend wearing a suit, even though the dress code was much more relaxed day-to-day we all wore and expected candidates to wear professional dress in the interviews.

      One thing I cannot speak to is your work experience and how to use it; our interviews were all people who went right from undergrad to grad, so it was different. And, honestly, depending on the hiring committee, you might not get a lot of questions about your professional experience. We used a standard template for all applicants for any given position.

      Good luck!

      1. MWKate*

        Thank you – I appreciate the insight. This is a fairly big shift for me, but as I continue to learn more about working in higher ed from those who are there – it really feels like the right decision.

        1. Whats In A Name*

          I could do what I do now in higher ed and have contemplated going back; I have been out for 3 years and miss it very much sometimes. I wish you lots of luck in your career!

  13. Cath in Canada*

    My department’s flagship project was the subject of an hour-long documentary on TV last night! The project is called personalized oncogenomics, and aims to evaluate the use of DNA and RNA sequencing to help doctors select the best treatment for individual cancers. I’m not directly involved, but pretty much everything we do at work is related to POG in some way.

    The documentary team did a great job at giving a very balanced insight into the project. And of course it’s always very cool to see your friends and colleagues on TV!

    My main contribution to making the documentary was scrambling to get out of the way as David Suzuki walked past my desk saying “oh, so this is just an office?” in a disappointed tone of voice.

        1. TL -*

          Indeed! I just read the article and we’re doing very complimentary work – we focus on RNA-seq and improved oncodrug selection from patient samples but we still have a ways to go before we hit clinical trials.

          Very awesome! I wish I could see the video – I’d love to see how they present to this.

    4. zora*

      omg, that is AWESOME!!! I wish there was a way for me to see this, I am fascinated by this stuff, even tho I am dumb at science. ;o)

    5. JMegan*

      You got to breathe the same air as David Suzuki! Even just for a minute, that’s still way cooler than anything that has happened to me at my work. :) Congrats on your contribution to the project, which I’m sure was much more than just that, even if it’s not visible to the public!

      1. Cath in Canada*

        Yes, we were all positively giddy at having him in the building!

        I’ve worked on projects and grants that developed and improved the computational tools that POG and other projects use to process and analyse sequencing data, and one of the other projects I work on is starting to do some additional analysis of POG tumour DNA samples. So yes, everything’s connected here and we can all bask in the reflected glory! It’s nice to take a moment to savour the pride we all take in our work.

    8. Hrovitnir*

      Nice! We need more decent media coverage.

      We just had a lecture from a (n MD) PI whose lab is focussed on just that. Genetics isn’t my favourite (well, I like ncRNA, but I’m more interested in protein), but I’m starting to get interested in translational work, rather than exclusively pre-clinical.

    9. Onnellinen*

      That is awesome! Love the Nature of Things. I am also going to watch it to see if you work with an old friend of mine, who I think does very similar work (also in Vancouver)!

  14. TMA*

    Is it weird to connect with someone on LinkedIn that you interviewed with if you don’t get or don’t accept the job offer?

    1. Turanga Leela*

      Depending on the person, either a) No, or b) No, as long as you guys had a good rapport and got along well.

      But regardless, it’s not offensive—the worst that will happen is the person won’t accept your connection request.

    2. K.*

      I had someone connect with me after he cancelled the interview/the position. A recruiter put us in touch, the interview was on the books, and the the recruiter forwarded me an email from him saying the position had been put on hold indefinitely. I got a LinkedIn request from the would-be interviewer a few days later. It struck me as odd, but I figured it couldn’t hurt to connect with him so I did.

    3. Poster Child*

      I typically don’t accept invites from candidates who want to connect before or after an interview. Before, I haven’t even met them yet (they just got my name from the interview schedule details) and after I think it’s awkward because most likely they won’t be getting the position. I guess it doesn’t hurt much but I won’t even remember them a year from now and wouldn’t want them contacting me.

    4. Lily in NYC*

      I do think it’s a bit weird unless you really hit if off with the person. I know my former boss used to find it a bit irritating to get these requests (he also hated being asked for informational interviews) but my current boss probably wouldn’t mind…

    5. Trout 'Waver*

      Not weird. If the interview went well, but the job wasn’t the right fit for one side or the other, the next job opportunity might be the right fit.

  15. Zip Silver*

    Some sad news (yet it benefits me greatly). There was a round of layoffs in the management level above me this week throughout the company, but the positions weren’t eliminated. They were people who were identified as not being on course with the (been here a year) COO’s vision. Beneficial because I’ve been shortlisted for a promotion with higher pay in a cheaper COL area (which is great, because I’m not cut out for the big city), sad because some of these people had excelled under the old executive leadership and had been here for years.

    So yay, I suppose.

    1. periwinkle*

      It could be good news, or at least not bad news, if the new COO’s vision makes sense for the org going forward. My employer has a relatively new CEO, promoted from within. Since that person took over, a whole slew of top executives and other senior leadership – many of whom had been with the company for a decade or more – suddenly “chose to spend more time with their families.” We’re losing their experience but at the same time they were part of a deeply entrenched bureaucratic process-obsessed culture, and that culture desperately needs to be changed (IMO, anyway). The people who left had excelled under that culture, which I assume is why they were nudged out of the way.

    2. Whats In A Name*

      2nding what periwinkle had to say! sometimes a change in upper level is sad for the folks personally but often then hold back the organization as a whole…I think it’s often a natural transition…and the COO got to his position somehow! Someone thinks his vision is the right one and this is just the process that goes along with new leadership.

  16. Laura*

    I’m beginning a job hunt after 11 years in the same entry level position. I’m also hoping to change fields from technical editing to project management. I’m good at helping people with their cover letters and resumes, but when it comes to my own I’m feeling stuck. I’m considering hiring a professional resume writer, but I don’t have a lot to spend (see above re: entry level). I would really appreciate any advice on professional resume services or recommendations!

    1. TMA*

      What about looking through the back logs of AAM’s posts? I’ve found those immensely helpful in formatting my resume and tailoring my resume.

    2. Karanda Baywood*

      I would reference AAM’s resume-writing resources rather than hiring anyone. All the stories we’ve read here on those services have been rather suspect.

    3. Perpetua*

      Can you try imagining you’re helping someone else with their cover letter and resume? You can go as far as you need to in order to make it feel more real to you, invent a name, a character, anything that helps you distance yourself enough in order to do for yourself what you’re good at doing for others. :)

    5. Andy Sachs*

      I’m in a similar boat to Laura, in that my resume is definitely missing that little bit of something that gets it taken seriously. I’ve read all of the archives and comments in the tag and haven’t been able to pinpoint what’s missing. Has anyone had any good experiences with people/services (since the archives definitely show there are a lot of scams out there)? ty!

      1. Aglaia761*

        I used Amanda Ingle of ResumeEdge. Unfortunately, they are closing down. She did my resume, a boilerplate cover letter with suggestions on how to personalize it, and a LinkedIn Profile for me. It was well worth it.

        Not sure if we can share emails here…but if so I’d be happy to share

    7. The Grammarian*

      I would not advise using a resume writing service. I did, and the lady produced a clunky and cluttered resume that got me no interviews. I used Alison’s advice (and advice from her book) to revise my resume and I suddenly got multiple interviews (and a job). I also got advice from someone in my new field about how best to frame my accomplishments, since I wasn’t sure how to best present them. I suggest that, too, if you can do that without tipping off people at your current job.

    8. Ella*

      Do you have friends who you’d be able to seek feedback from? When I was making a career change I found it helpful to pass my resume to multiple friends. Not all advice was great, but having multiple perspectives was.

  17. Arts Admin*

    Internal interview advice please! I have an interview at the place I currently work soon, but it’s late in the afternoon. Do I just wear my interview clothes all day and just throw on the jacket/heels right before? It’s a silly question but I think nerves are making me focus on the little things! I’m going to be reviewing Alison’s interview prep guide this weekend so hopefully I’ll be well equipped on the day.

    1. straws*

      That’s probably what I would do, unless there’s some reason that you don’t want other people to know that you have an interview.

      1. Angelinha*

        Same! I’ve done this and had interviewees do it too. It will probably lead to a couple of people (whoever sees you put it on and walk to a meeting) realizing what’s up, but there’s not really any other way to handle it when you’re interviewing internally!

    2. Turanga Leela*

      Yes, don’t do a major outfit change mid-day. The only exception I can think of is if you’re keeping the interview secret (as straws says), or if you do a job where your interview suit is totally impractical (like construction or working with kids).

    3. TMA*

      I’m in a similar position too. I just decided to where what I planned to wear to the interview (also in the late afternoon on a casual Friday).

      And DEFINITELY review the interview prep guide. It’s so helpful!

    4. emma*

      When I interviewed for an internal position, I just took the rest of the day off. But adding jacket/heels would be fine too!

    5. MegaMoose, Esq*

      If you’re feeling self-conscious about looking like you’re interviewing all day, you could plan an outfit with some sort of colorful sweater/shrug-type-thing that can be swapped for your jacket. If you wear that kind of thing, of course. I’m really eloquent today.

    7. applesauce*

      I did the same thing recently (though I was actively trying to conceal that I’m interviewing) – layers are key! I wore my suit dress with a long cardigan & casual scarf to make it look more like my daily wear, removed the layers and carried my suit jacket to the interview (put it on just before), then swapped back out. Good luck!

  18. AnonAsker*

    Hey, I wrote about receiving a PIP and requesting accommodations like a month ago. Original comment was here: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/02/if-you-think-a-pip-always-ends-in-firing-you-are-wrong.html#comment-1350659

    I followed Alison’s advice and sent out a formal email to HR. I also had my doctor send a note. No reply after two weeks so I sent another email. HR did respond to that, by calling me into their office and telling me they were rejecting my request because they didn’t think I really needed accommodations. The HR manager also specifically said that this wasn’t retaliation and they wouldn’t reply to any more requests from me.

    Now I know that they’re trying to get rid of me, so I’m focusing 100% on job hunting. I’ve also discretely told a few trustworthy people what’s happening so I can possibly use them as references.

    Mostly a rant/venting session but I would like some advice on 3 things:

    1. What should I say when people.ask why I’m looking to leave the company after less than a year?
    2. If I get fired before I find a new job, how should I represent that?
    3. Is it worth going to the EEOC? My company isn’t following the laws, but the complaint might get me fired quicker, and it might spread around the industry and hurt my chances at getting a new job.

    Thanks in advance.

    1. Whats In A Name*

      Do you have a lawyer yet? You need to at least have them review the case and offer advice if not action.

    2. KiteFlier*

      I’m sorry you are going through this! Your company’s HR is terrible. I would definitely go to the EEOC and get a legal consultation.

    4. Belle (HR Mgr)*

      Accommodation requests should be an interactive process — back and forth. I would recommend you seek advice from your local bar association — they are often able to point you to someone who can help affordably with a reply

    5. MWKate*

      I know the answer to “Is this legal?” is generally ‘Yes’, but if someone is requesting accomodations under the ADA it doesn’t seem like HR should be able to simply disregard it by saying they don’t think you need it. I understand the accomodations need to be reasonable but it doesn’t seem like this was even a discussion of what could be done.

      As for your questions, I would think for 1 that you could say it isn’t a good cultural fit? If you end up looking in different areas or positions you could also say you found the role wasn’t what you expected/you were looking for and you are looking to get into X which you find more interesting and challenging.

      I can’t say whether you should go to the EEOC or not, and I’m not a lawyer and I don’t work in HR. Is it possible to call and talk to someone without filing a complaint and see if they think there is merit to pursuing it further?

      I’m sorry this is happening. It seems like they are handling this very poorly. Ignoring an employee’s request for ADA accomodations and that they wouldn’t reply to any further communication from you is very unprofessional (and possibly illegal?). Good luck.

    6. Theletter*

      I can help with questions 1 and 1: So this is going to be tough, but you can get through this and get the job that you want, with the right attitude. Remember that almost everyone gets fired at least once in their lives, and many will tell report back that in hindsight, it was a blessing in disguise.

      The thing that will get you your next job will be:

      1. your skills
      2. the enthusiasm you have for the company you’re interviewing for.

      While you’re interviewing, but honest, but not verbose. Take some blame for what is happening, in a way that shows you’ve thought clearly about it, learned your lesson, are are ready to move onto the next challenge. You could say something like “It turned out that work was more stressful than I imagined. I got off to bad start, and so as a result I wasn’t as productive as I wanted to be, and the company could see that. Ultimately we decided to part ways. I’ve decided to work on managing stress better so that I can better prepared for the next challenge.”

      So once you say that, take a deep breath, and then say “Now I’m excited about this opportunity because it will allow me to use my skills in _____ . . . . .”.

      If you can pivot well and project a can-do, optimistic attitude, your interviewer could (and in my opinion, should) be sympathetic. Emphasize that you have the skills and then enthusiasm to do this next job, and you my find that your current state of employment is not that interesting.

      And honestly, your interviewers are looking to hire people who are available to work. People are often available because they were let go by some other place. That’s reality. They shouldn’t be overly surprised or horrified that they will be interviewing people who were fired or on a PIP. Just be honest, keep the whole story short, take ownership for it, don’t bad-mouth your previous employer, and say you’re excited for the next challenge.

  19. Czhorat*

    I thought you all might be amused by this from the Book of Face:

    Once I put in my resume that I was a juggler and I ended up talking to the interviewer for over half the time about that. Tip being: put in something unique. You never know.
    I work in HR if anyone would like resume review.

    1. Sadsack*

      Was juggling related to the job? Seems like a waste of interview time, unless the rest of the time was very productive. Did you get the job? Did it work out well? Is this a sales pitch for your resume review services?

      2. Czhorat*

        This was a random person from FB.

        I *have* mentioned juggling as a metaphor for handling multiple projects. Once I actually *did* break out the juggling balls and throw a quick three-ball cascade pattern [doesn’t everyone travel with juggling balls?]. I did end up with an offer, shockingly enough.

        And no, not a pitch for resume services. I just thought some folks here would get a chuckle out of it.

  20. straws*

    My husband works as a service technician. He has a company vehicle at home, so he frequently goes straight to a job site. There are also many days that he reports to HQ before leaving for a site (not all techs have a truck, he’s just a more senior employee and it’s a perk). He’s been assigned to a 1-week job that is a 2.5hr drive from home (so 5 hours of driving total per day). He’s being told that he doesn’t have to be paid for his commute by his HR dept. I’ve found a lot of conflicting info online, since a lot of the regulations seem to be based on set hours (9-5) or typically working from a single office. Does anyone have knowledge/experience with this?

    1. JK*

      I have experience, but in both cases it was at the discretion of the employer to find a solution to compensate for drive time. I don’t know if there is a legal requirement. My brother has a work vehicle and his job involves a lot of driving from one work site to another. The agreement they made upon his hire is that 1 hour of his commute each way is on him. After that, he is paid. So if he is working somewhere 2 hours from home, his official hours on his paystub would include 1 hour for the morning drive and 1 hour for the evening drive.

      My husband also has a work vehicle, but has to do long drives less frequently. When it has come up, I believe he has gotten around it by going to the main office first (under the guise of picking up a part or something for the job), clocking in, then driving to the site from there. It would have technically been faster to drive from home, but there weren’t clear rules around how he would have been paid if he left straight from the house.

      1. straws*

        I suspect their discretion wouldn’t end up with paid time. The job is already 40 hours, so the driving time would be at overtime pay, which they hate. They’re very supportive in many areas, but giving out additional pay is not one of them! Thank you for sharing!

      1. straws*

        Good point. I think our state has some online resources as well, so I’ll dig through there too. Thanks!

    3. Volunteer Coordinator in NoVA*

      Technically for my employer, if you are going directly to a site or to our main office it all counts as part of your commute even if they are drastically different distances. I could technically drive to my office and then on to one of our sites but it would be a waste of time so I just subtract the difference between the distance from my home to my office from the distance from my job to the site and put that on my mileage. We don’t really have an HR department so no one has every said anything to me about it but it might be worth asking if there is a work around since it’s such a longer commute.

      1. straws*

        The way you do it is how I thought it would work, but I’ve found very little to back that up. I think JK is correct and that it’s at the employer’s discretion.

    4. PTownes*

      Hi, I would start by making sure you are looking at the regulations specific to your state, and if there aren’t any, check the federal Fair Labor Standards Act (https://www.dol.gov/whd/flsa/) for regulations regarding compensable travel time. Actually, I would start by asking for the company policy about travel time, mileage reimbursement, etc – if there is a company policy, it should be made available for him to view. Good luck!

      1. straws*

        Their HR dept is somewhat lacking, but I’ll make him take a second look. I’ll definitely be checking out the state DOL site. I think the fact that he’s starting from home has this fall under “a commute” for most laws though.

        1. Natalie*

          It’s possible it would be far away enough to count as “overnight travel away from home area”, but in that case only travel time during his normal work day would be paid.

    5. Czhorat*

      Legal or not, it really sucks.

      The people I work for have a rule that you get paid a certain number of miles from your nearest office. I had to clarify with them because I work from home and the nearest office is literally over two hours away. They do have something reasonable for those working remotely.

      Is this a one-time thing or will there regularly be times like this? If the latter, it’ll be hard to retain decent people if they aren’t better about it.

      1. straws*

        One-time thing, hopefully. Most jobs are within an hour, and I suspect that just don’t have a company rule about this sort of thing.

    6. Natalie*

      This fits into a DOL gray area, unfortunately.

      But he can push back on this regardless of the law. Five hours of commuting per day for a week is INSANE. They won’t pay for a hotel for 4 days?

      1. straws*

        Yes, I think that gray area is where I keep landing. I’m going to encourage him to push back to HR a bit. The company is rather small and their HR person frequently puts more weight on saving the company money than doing what’s best for employees. The company overall is very supportive, just to make that clear, but in certain areas they are very lacking in that dept.

        I’m not sure the idea of a hotel has been discussed. I mentioned it upthread, but this isn’t a common situation. That combined with a small, employer-focused HR probably means they don’t think outside of the normal box. My husband hates staying away from home though, so he might prefer the 5 hour drive (or at least, he’ll say so until he has to deal with the first day!)

        1. Natalie*

          Back of the envelope calculation, if this is 300 miles round trip per day and you use the IRS rate to account for the total cost of operating a vehicle per mile, it’s costing them $160/day for him to drive back and forth. In a lot of cities you could find a decent hotel for less than that.

    7. Belle (HR Mgr)*

      Time spent traveling during normal work hours is considered compensable work time. Time spent in home-to-work travel by an employee in an employer-provided vehicle, or in activities performed by an employee that are incidental to the use of the vehicle for commuting, generally is not “hours worked” and, therefore, does not have to be paid. This provision applies only if the travel is within the normal commuting area for the employer’s business and the use of the vehicle is subject to an agreement between the employer and the employee or the employee’s representative.

      https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/traveltime

      Note that it specifically says normal commuting area — which means it might have to be paid.

  21. Mimmy*

    Ugh I am at BEC stage with my contract job already!!

    TL;DR: How do I express that I misunderstood expectations and am not sure how to proceed without burning bridges?

    I had the initial project meeting (I’m creating a handbook) on February 13 and was subsequently given an outline to work from. I had begun working from a technical (policy/rules) mindset knowing that I’d get feedback along the way.

    I sent in my first submission on Tuesday. The woman wrote me back saying not to worry so much about the technical aspects and focus more on the “human interest” side. I was completely thrown because I have no idea how to do this. How do you add editorial content to a handbook??

    I couldn’t wait until the Open Thread to get advice on what to do, but I wrote the woman back using a strategy I learned here: I thanked her for the feedback and said I misunderstood the expectations from me (rather than accusing them of changing the expectations) and asked if we could meet Monday to discuss, saying I’m not 100% sure how to proceed.

    I’m really scared that I’ve begun to harm my standing with this. To be clear: I am not a freelance contractor – they approached ME, an unemployed job seeker. Yes I have the writing skills, but I can’t create a good product if you don’t spell out what you want.

    1. Karanda Baywood*

      I would set up a tentative outline myself (a creative brief, if you will) so she has something to react to when you meet.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Does she expect a handbook that teaches through use of stories?

      I’d be lost also. I doubt you have ruined your standing with what has happened so far. I would don the “service mentality”. “I am here to make absolutely sure you have what you want. Here, help me to understand better what it is you are looking for.”

      You can ask for examples using what you already have written. And redundantly, you can ask what she thinks this thing will look like when you are done.
      Sneakily, you can also ask how she expects it to be used once in place. If this is a book that people will pick up and put down and only read sections relevant at the moment, then that would require a bit different presentation of info than if people were expected to read the handbook straight through.

      Hang tough. Give yourself the weekend to just step back and recharge. Monday may look better. Bring the outline with you, so you can look at it together.

    3. Mimmy*

      Thank you both.

      I have a meeting set up for Monday afternoon. Her last email to me was friendly, so I guess I’m still good :)

    4. Jules the First*

      Hard to say without seeing what you wrote, but is it possible she’s looking for something more conversational? Like, say, the difference between “All Wonky Teapot Employees must clock in within 60s of shift start time by manipulating the time clock widget handle firmly in a counterclockwise direction.” and “We’d love it if our Wonky Teapotters could clock in at the start of your shift so we can keep accurate records. Grab the sparkly handle and give it a twizzle to the left to say hi!”

      1. bossy*

        I asked my technical writer to change our dry training to be more conversational by addressing the reader directly and making sure we’re telling them why they’re doing things: “You must always clock in at the start of your shift. Accurate timekeeping ensures that you will get paid correctly and on-time. Turn the handle [diagram with handle highlighted] firmly counterclockwise after inserting your timecard.”

        Maybe she’s looking for something like this?

        Note that it took us a couple iterations to get the tone I wanted. This is totally expected when working with a new writer.

    5. Leslie Knope*

      A lot of my company’s online training that reviews policies is very situation oriented. It will say things like “Donna was talking to her customer Jerry, when he disclosed that his company will be going public within the next year. Let’s discuss what Donna should do with this information.”

      I think you are totally fine so far! I second several of the comments that you should ask for examples and get clarification how the end user will be utilizing this resource. When I’ve had projects with a moving target, I like to schedule frequent check-ins with my manager / decision maker so that we don’t get several weeks in with me pursuing the wrong path.

  22. May*

    So there’s this man in my office who I find to be really creepy and sexist and I now sit very close to him and he’s driving me nuts. The first year I worked here he said some variations of “Why aren’t you smiling?” to me at least four times so he was already on my list, but I recently moved to a new desk very close to where he sits and have to listen to him talk to my female coworkers all day. For context, he is a middle-aged, divorced father and my female coworkers are in their 20s. He always, without fail refers to them as “Ladies” or “girls,” and the other day he actually said the words “What’s wrong, baby girl?” to one of them when he saw she was working late. He skeeves me out so bad but I can’t tell if it bothers the women he’s talking to or not because they have friendly conversations with him pretty much every day. I don’t know if they’re just being polite or what and since he doesn’t talk to me much (as I have no problem being stony and cool to people when they do things like that and he seems to have gotten the hint) I guess I don’t really have a personal stake in it but he’s driving me nuts. Guess I’m not really asking for advice so much as ranting.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      That’s disgusting. You NEED to say something to him when he speaks to you like that. “Fergus, please don’t refer to me that way. I am an adult woman.” “Fergus, it’s not my job to smile. Stop telling me to smile.”

      1. May*

        I mean if he said any of that stuff to me I would just look back at him blankly until he felt shame deep in his soul but after my uncomfortable reactions to his “smile” comments finally sank in he’s more or less left me alone (it’s been a couple of years since the last one). I don’t feel like I can speak up on behalf of my coworkers because I don’t know if it bothers them or not, and if it does I don’t want to make that decision for them because it might make them feel more uncomfortable to make it into a thing.

        1. Jessie the First (or second)*

          “I would just look back at him blankly until he felt shame deep in his soul ”

          I love this.

          If you are right next to them when he says something with “baby girl” could you just look up and say quizzically “what about a baby girl?” As if you didn’t really hear what he said and there might be an actual baby girl in the room?

          2. JustaTech*

            I have a friend who’s reaction to the command of “smile!” was to bear her teeth in something the superficially looked like a smile but really made you think she was about to tear out your throat (or your soul). It’s over-the-top but *very* effective, because you don’t actually say anything and you followed the (ridiculous) command.

        2. Natalie*

          I think you can speak up on the “baby girl” thing even though it wasn’t directed to you, because it’s so out of line.

        3. Wanna-Alp*

          You can’t speak up on behalf of them, but you can speak up on behalf of you.

          If it bothers you to keep hearing someone infantilising grown women, and putting his condescension out there like a bad smell, then absolutely you can speak up for this reason! He is not contributing to a positive work environment.

    2. Leatherwings*

      Whoooo I’d have already lost my temper on this guy. I agree that you need to be straightfoward with him and say “Please don’t refer to adult women as girls or ladies. It’s unprofessional and degrading” and “Please don’t tell people, especially women, to smile. It’s pretty sexist”

      It probably does make some of the women he’s talking to uncomfortable, and even if it doesn’t it’s inappropriate on its face so I’d say something.

    3. Here we go again*

      Gross! Can you work up a gradual acquaintanceship with some of the other women and get to the point where you can ask how they feel about him?

      1. May*

        Actually the majority of the coworkers in question are people that I trained (though I am not their manager) so I may put out some feelers about it.

    4. bopper*

      “Is there some work issue you would like to discuss?”

      “Why aren’t you smiling?”
      “Why aren’t you working?”

      “Why aren’t you smiling?”
      “Why?”
      If he says it’ll make me look prettier, and then you say “For whom?”

      1. May*

        My default response in the wild to the question “Why aren’t you smiling?” is “Because a man is talking to me” but in an office setting I’d be compelled to be a bit more diplomatic.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Oh I like that response. Gonna pocket that for future use as needed.

          As far as your issue, just going to say I sympathize. I worked at a place once where the main team was all women – 7 of us, all under the age of 35 – with a male manager, who was cool, and a man who worked kind of adjacent to us (on a specialized subset of accounts). The male coworker was older and had a habit of referring to the team as “my girls” – like, “How are my girls doing today?” – until I snapped at him one day “I’m not your girl.” He tried to brush it off, but thankfully the rest of the team backed me up and he finally quit saying it after that.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        I’d just cut to the chase. “I am thinking you don’t realize it, but asking a woman about smiling has been identified as a sexist remark. Because men don’t ask other men that question. I wanted to point that out to you so that you know that many people consider that an offensive thing to say.”

        When he says “I didn’t mean anything by it”, just nod in agreement, “I am SURE you meant nothing by it, so that will make all the easier to just stop saying that now that you know it is offensive to others. I know you would not want to offend people. That is why I mentioned it.”

    5. writelhd*

      I found “Don’t ever call me that again” in a dead serious tone with direct eye contact stare pretty helpful, once. The guy told me he thought about it all weekend and realized he had done wrong to call me “sweetie” when dropping off papers in my inbox. But he was an enlightened person genuinely interested in self improvement and took the blame on himself rather than the asserter when he experienced pushback. But therein lies the rub. Pushback, can probably help in your situation. Not always and not completely, and it is scary to contemplate having to push back every.single.time. not just that, so damn wearying. But I do think it’s the only thing that has a chance of being effective.

      1. Nethwen*

        I told a customer not to call me sweetheart and he said, “I’m just being a gentleman.”

        Our definitions of what is gentlemanly behavior are clearly very different.

        1. writelhd*

          Oh grr, I hate that, and have gotten that too. At which point my instinct is to provide clear education on why undermining someone’s authority and position is not very gentlmanly.

        2. Cordelia Naismith*

          “If you continue to call me sweetheart after I have asked you to stop, that is not being gentlemanly; that is being rude.”

    6. Emi.*

      If he’s telling you to smile and distracting you from work, you do have a personal stake in it! You would be totally justified in speaking up.

    7. Lady By The Lake*

      If there is a way to do it, I might go to lunch with some of the other women and find out what they think. I suspect that he skeeves everyone out but they are being nice because the power differential appears to be in his favor. If all the women feel the same, a united frosty front rather than one person taking the initiative to call this guy on his nonsense might be empowering.

    8. Gail Davidson-Durst*

      Blech.

      I agree that I wouldn’t want to make it awkward when he talks to other women unless I knew they were on board. The last thing I’d want to do is create conflict on behalf of someone who would rather I didn’t.

      For the smiling thing, I’ve told a colleague who did it to another woman “Don’t tell women to smile – it’s gross,” while for myself I think I’d go with “Please don’t tell me what to do with my own face.”

      (Actually, I’ve only had one dude ever tell me to smile, and it was as I walked into the office the morning after the 2016 election. I honestly was so enraged that I don’t remember exactly what I said, only that I managed to refrain from expletives, yet made enough of an impression that I overheard him mention it to one of his teammates weeks later.)

  23. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I forgot to pack breakfast and lunch for work last night until I was already 90% asleep. So, I don’t remember doing it, and have NO idea what my lunch is. It’s just a UFO-like object wrapped in foil, about the size of a Frisbee. I’m almost afraid to look!

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      A few days ago, I packed my lunch the night before work, put it in my lunchbox, and promptly left the lunchbox on the fridge all night. Definitely had to throw it away! I was bummed– it was leftovers I really enjoyed.

    5. i2c2*

      I really want to go 20 questions on this. Is it heavier than a can of soda? Does it hold its shape if you move it? Make noise if you shake it? Is it food?

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        It’s fairly heavy, but not a can- there’s some “give” in the shape, and it’s flat-ish. It doesn’t make noise. No strong smells.

        I can keep this up for 45 minutes to an hour when I eat! I’ll play, ask away.

        1. Chinook*

          This doesn’t happen more often? I have a whole array of frozen leftovers that I randomly grab every morning for lunch. When asked what I am eating, I have been known to answer “not sure but I really hope it isn’t the chopped onions I had prepped for a stir fry.”

  24. Turanga Leela*

    I’ve been reading applications this week, and I’m so disheartened by people’s cover letters. Many of them were clearly told that it helps to have a customized cover letter, so they have one sentence about how interested they are in my organization and our mission… followed by several paragraphs, clearly pulled from a form letter, about their great experience in irrelevant areas. It’s depressing—I really want them to make a case for themselves, and they’re not doing it. And since many of them are coming from other areas of work, their resumes don’t speak for themselves.

    I just want someone to tell all these well-meaning people that having a customized cover letter isn’t just some technicality that you can fake. You need to make the entire letter speak to the job posting!

    1. T3k*

      I feel for them. I’ve never been a strong writer, but if you asked me to draw you something, I’d be breaking out my oil pastels, charcoal, etc and paint a mural all over the Great Wall of China. Also, some of them might have unfortunately slipped into what I’ve been doing lately: I’ve basically stopped even trying to customize letters and will just throw some paragraphs together (granted, I try to use stories that stick to the qualifications, like examples of how I’m organized, multi-task well, etc). Mainly because I start thinking depressive thoughts like how nobody is going to even give my resume even 5 mins, so why should I spend hours on a custom cover letter like I used to do (and never got anywhere)? I’ve basically given up.

      1. Turanga Leela*

        Oh, I’m sorry, T3k. I feel for them too (and you). My problem is that we’re hiring for a position where persuasive writing really matters, so if they can’t do a strong cover letter, it’s a very bad sign for the job.

      2. SophieChotek*

        +1 I feel that way too when I write cover letters. I try to make it customized but if I think they’ll only give it 30 seconds and I have to spend hours reading the job position, tailoring the letter, research the company, it’s disheartening.

        But if the position requires persuasive writing, I can see where this matters and might stand out more.

        Ha…your note is encouraging in a way…it means some people actually read our cover letters!

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Since mine has certain things I’m likely going to put in each one, I created macros for those things. Then I can tweak them without having to cut and paste and retype every time.

    2. Today I'm Anon*

      I read a cover letter this week that was all about what a good job the candidate would do for Company A. It was well-written and incredibly persuasive. Unfortunately, the job was at Company B, in no way affiliated with Company A, and not even for similar work.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        Someone at Company B probably has the cover letter for Company A too. And half the job seekers reading this are saying “I hope that wasn’t me!”

    3. Jadelyn*

      At least you’re getting cover letters at all. I actually get excited when I see one because it’s pretty rare, despite clearly asking for a cover letter in our job postings.

      1. Salmon Maki*

        Agreed. I’ve been a hiring manager for just a few months, but out of around 100 candidates who have applied, only one has submitted a cover letter.

    4. Biff*

      Please do double-check your postings — they might not really lend themselves to customization as well as they may seem. Or, HR might have changed your beautifully written postings to something awful before posting it! My parents have both complained about that happening.

      I’ve been trying my damnedest to create ‘custom’ cover letters for each company I’ve applied to recently, but the trouble I’m running into is that so many job postings are a short paragraph about how quirky the company is, a vague two-or-three lines about the work, followed by 25-50 bullet points of ‘must have’ ‘nice to haves’ and ‘bonus points.’ At that point, I try to either talk about anything I think is a key skill, or try to create a general idea of the job and write about what skills I have that fit the vision of the job my mind has created. It slow going, hard, and frankly, at some point in time, I feel like it’s Boiler Plate vrs. Disguised Boiler Plate. It’s disheartening on my end to feel I have no way to really write something worth reading.

    5. ModernHypatia*

      Definitely feel your pain – the last time I was hiring (last summer), it was for a job with three distinct roles, spelled out in the ad.

      Only about a third of the people applying even touched on all three. We weren’t expecting people would have equal skills or interests in the three parts, just wanted to know the person had thought about the roles, maybe had a thing that was relevant for each one, based on what we said about it.

      On the other hand, the people who did touch on all three really stood out. (And our hire is awesome.)

  25. Anonymoose*

    So I have a weird problem. What do you do if your email address gets flagged as spam half the time and you’re trying to talk with an interviewer who doesn’t know this? I recently applied to this startup company using their online application, was messaged a few hours later about if I could come down in my salary (I put in 20/hr, but after talking to someone else from that area, I said I could and gave them a lower number). I didn’t get a response back and it’s been a few days, so I replied again basically checking if they got my previous email and it was ok if we couldn’t agree on numbers (I just want to know if I’m still on the board or not). There’s no way to call them, and no other email address, so now I don’t know what to do.

    1. May*

      Could you set up a different email account that’s less likely to get flagged and send them a heads up about it?

      1. Anonymoose*

        Oh, didn’t think of that. I’ll have to get creative with a name though that is professional but doesn’t include my last name though (as I think it’s my last name that’s causing the auto-filtering, grrr).

        2. Sunflower*

          Definitely go with the initial name. In college, our email addresses(and usernames) were first, middle and last initial with some numbers after it. A lot of people just used their username @ gmail post college.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah — flagged as spam half the time means that a lot of people will never see your communications because lots of people never check their spam folders! You need a different email.

  26. Audiophile*

    I was reading an NYT article today about filler words, which now makes me think of all the times I use them in interviews.

    I have an interview today, which I excited about. I still haven’t figured out how to claw my way into the corporate communications world, the one corporate job I interviewed for rejected me the other day. I’m patient, I know I can make it happen.

    Anyway, here’s my question. Has anyone figured out a tactful way to glance at their questions during interviews? I have a list of questions, but feel like it looks a little weird to throw open notebook and look at them. Maybe I’m over thinking this.

    1. Spoonie*

      I use a two column approach — one column is shorthanded questions and the other column is my “notes” from the interview. As I’m taking notes on the interview, I can glance at my question in the other column.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Ooh I like that better than the questions pages I print out. I usually end up writing on the job description instead. I think I’ll make a document with the description at the top and the columns below that. :D

    2. Amy The Rev*

      I think it can actually make you look like you’re prepared and ‘did your homework’…when they ask “do you have any (more) questions for us?” you can say, “yes, actually, let me see…” and open your notebook to jog your memory. I think that also makes it a little easier to jot down notes on their answers.

    3. Turanga Leela*

      You mean your questions for the employer? I think it’s totally normal to have your notebook on hand for that. When I interview, I bring a folder/portfolio with copies of my resume and a list of my questions. When the interviewer asks if I have questions, I open the folder and go through my list. It’s not a secret; people come into interviews knowing they have questions. Sometimes I say something like, “I have a bunch of questions! I wrote them down so I wouldn’t forget.”

      1. Newby*

        Filler words are words that you use to fill silence when they do not add anything to what you are saying. Common examples are “um” “uh” and “like”.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          GRRRR
          That link says verbal ticks. It should be verbal tics. The editor in me is clutching her pearls!
          Verbal ticks sounds like someone opening their mouth and gross insects pouring out.

          2. Audiophile*

            It’s amusing that the mistake is in the link. At no point in the article, is the word tic or tick used.

            Either way, the article is really interesting.

    5. ThatGirl*

      I usually have a pen with me and keep my notepad open and occasionally jot things down – so my questions are already at the top of the page. Nobody’s ever looked at me weird for that.

      1. Czhorat*

        I take almost all of my notes electronically, and have opened up a tablet during interviews. I’ve gotten a couple of offers since doing this, so it doesn’t apparently come across as too weird [as opposed to, say, juggling].

        It also gives me a way to discretely check the time if I want to and can have my questions for them at hand.

    6. pmac*

      Congrats on the interview! I usually ask them at the beginning of the interview if it’s okay to take notes. Then I keep my notebook open until it’s time for questions. It also allows me to jot down reminders about multi-part questions since I tend to forget to address a part otherwise.

  27. Amy The Rev*

    I usually use this thread to rant about some aspect of being an office temp, BUT today I’m here to rave about one of the benefits: the office you temp in usually knows you’re job-searching for something in your field and temping as a stop-gap, and so you can openly share your excitement/good news with them when you GET INVITED FOR AN INTERVIEW AT YOUR DREAM CHURCH, and they get excited with you and are genuinely happy for you and send you lots of good luck wishes!

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Good luck! My workplace is similar in terms of expecting regular turnover and being really supportive of job searching (so long as you’re getting your hours in). It’s a nice perk.

      1. NaoNao*

        hee!
        I think (based on my mom’s experience with trying to find a “home” church) that it’s like a dream job:
        The right distance from your home, in the right/desirable part of town for you, the building itself is cool (to you, whatever you like, modern, small little clapboard with 3 rooms, whatever) the population is involved and growing, and probably most importantly, the doctrine (and how it’s expressed–sermons, hand outs, songs/bands, youth groups, etc) is matching your own!

      2. Amy The Rev*

        Thank you!! Dream Church/Job for me is: an associate minister position at a church with progressive theology but high liturgy, with a decent salary/benefits, a senior minister who is known to be a good mentor and supervisor, and enough material/human resources to be able to head up a few cool projects in both the congregation and wider community. Which this church fits to a T…I’ve actually been wanting to work there ever since I found out about them a few years ago, but never figured they’d have an opening to fill at the same time that I was job searching (or what we call “being in search and call”)!

    4. zora*

      YAY!!! Amy that’s awesome!!!! Wishing you the best of all luck at the interview! I’ll keep my fingers crossed!

  28. Not a Real Giraffe*

    Sigh. Last month, I told my boss that I was interested in getting more involved in one of our large programs, and she was thrilled. We drafted out a plan to get me up to speed, in which I would shadow her for the first stage of the program, then me go out on my own for the second stage. The second stage involved an international trip that I was really looking forward to, and frankly the international travel was 75% of the reason I was interested in getting more involved.

    We looked at flight prices this week and my boss said she didn’t think I could go, for budget reasons. She seemed legitimately sorry to take the trip away from me, but I understood the reasoning.

    Three hours later, I learned that she asked her assistant to look into flights for her to go on the trip herself. So much for “budget reasons.”

    1. Effie*

      Oh. My. God.

      Bah humbug was the first thing that came to mind. I am so sorry.

      I don’t have any advice, just empathy.

    2. Audiophile*

      I understand your disappointment. While it presumably isn’t related to budget reasons, is it possible that it makes more sense for your boss to go?

    3. athiker10*

      Was she planning on sending just you or both of you to go on the trip? Because it could still be legitimate budget reasons if she was planning on going.

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          No, it was just supposed to be me. One of my coworkers said it might be that my boss has some non-transferable flight vouchers, which would justify her going in my stead. If that’s the case, I rescind all my anger and disappointment!

          1. Bex*

            Were you looking today? I’ve noticed that tickets are WAY more Fri-Sat… I’ve been pricing tickets for a Brazil trip. Yesterday they were $850. Today they were $1350. But I’m expecting them to go back down by Tues/Wed.

            Do you think your boss would be open to waiting a couple days? Have you checked sites like Travel Pirates and Google Flights that are great for finding routes on sale?

    4. Mephyle*

      Well of course it was budget reasons. After her ticket was booked, there wasn’t enough left in the budget for you to go.

    5. Eponymous Clent*

      Don’t give up! I’ve been plugging away with our team in Europe for several years, and finally got the chance to make the trip. It’s fair to wait until you’ve really done some work on the program.

    6. GirlwithaPearl*

      To be fair, “frankly the international travel was 75% of the reason I was interested in getting more involved” is a pretty crappy reason to want to work on something.

      1. Hrovitnir*

        Really? I think “I’m OK with this work but the possibility of [perk] is what motivated me” is both a perfectly reasonable and fairly common reason to go out of your way to be involved with something.

  29. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Also, I found enough cheap ones, and saved enough money, to afford all of my continuing ed credits needed to keep my license this year! And as soon as I have $35 to spare, I am joining my local LGBT bar association, which offers a few free classes a year on those issues, so I can spend less in future years, and meet people.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Wooo hoo! As I am terrified of networking and somewhat low on funds, I do not belong to any of the bar associations in my area. I know I should, but they can be really spendy! I live in a metro with three law school and a state capital so have managed to get most of my CLEs for free as long as I’m not picky on the subject matter.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Aren’t we both in Minnesota? The three law schools thing just stuck out to me. Do tell about the free CLEs, because I recently paid $90 for 10 credits- two annual “Advising the Disadvantaged” seminars.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq*

          Brain fart, I believe we did establish that in an earlier open-thread! I regularly hit up the law journal symposia – each school generally does 2-4 a year and they’re free at St. Thomas and the U (and I think WM, but I don’t make it to that side of town often).You can net 5-7 credits each and they’re honestly pretty interesting. I went to one a couple of years ago at the U on LGBT issues in sports which might have been up your alley. The schools do other CLEs through the year that are usually free or very cheap and open to the public, and WM|H even puts some free for everyone on-demand on their website. Plus around the capital area there are also usually 3-6 free CLEs a year each from the revisor’s office, judicial branch, and AG’s office.

          1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

            I know the U does free- when I was on the Journal of Law & Inequality and OUTlaw, I did set up/tear down for LGBT symposiums and presentations. But I forgot they are eligible for CLE credit!

            1. MegaMoose, Esq*

              Yup! I like getting chunks out of the way at once rather than dribbling in an hour here and there. I think there’s less sunk cost too, since each one hour has some sort of travel time attached. Obviously it costs whatever you would have earned that day, but you’ve got to put the time in eventually. You can get all your standard credits that way if you go to 2-3 a year, and some of the JLI and St. Thomas symposia in particular offer ethics or bias credits.

              Assuming your credits aren’t committed already, St. Thomas is doing the ACA and executive power on 3/31 and 4/6. They don’t have CLE or attendance info up yet but they’ve usually offered 5.5-6.5 credits in the past and been free with advance registration.

  30. Spoonie*

    I had a side job for my old employer doing specialized teapot design. Past tense now because I got official word that my position has been eliminated. I had hoped that my supervisor would have had the respect for our relationship to tell me herself, but instead she had HR contact me to let me know what the ‘transition period’ would look like (EOM).

    I might be a tad bitter at the moment, particularly since she had given no indication that this was a possibility — and she wants me to explain to her how to finish the project and how to do specialized teapot design.

    1. Collie*

      Yikes; that’s unfortunate. Is it possible to have a conversation with her about it? “I was under the impression this work would be continuous, so I was surprised to hear from HR that the job was being eliminated. Can you tell me anything about that?” Maybe it won’t do much for you, but assuming this is how Supervisor/Company operates for all layoffs, it may bring to their attention that alternative methods of letting people know they’re being let go are preferred.

      1. Spoonie*

        The HR manager is actually also leaving (without a job lined up; the company is a bit off kilter, which is part of why I left), and she indicated that they’re restructuring, so I don’t believe I have any leverage there. The additional free time would be nice. How it’s being handled is the irksome part.

    2. Iain Clarke*

      “…explain to her how to finish the project”
      “Carry on paying me for my skills until the project is over.”
      There you go!

      1. Spoonie*

        Kind of what I was thinking. The whole thing just irks me from top to bottom, particularly since supervisor labeled it a “transition” plan when really no one’s transitioning anywhere, except she’s going to have to figure out how to do something she has no training in. Not my monkeys, no longer my circus.

  31. AdAgencyChick*

    Annoying situation on my side gig that I’d have no trouble managing if it were my day job…

    I freelance for a small company (which has nothing to do with my ad agency life). My duties are mostly editorial, but I do have one annoying administrative task that I’ve been stuck with, which is collecting and verifying all the writers’ invoices before forwarding them to the payroll person so that everyone gets paid. The invoice deadline is the same day every month, and I send out a reminder a couple of days ahead of the deadline every time.

    A couple of people are late getting me their invoices. Every single time. This means I either have to delay everyone else getting paid until they submit (nope!) or else forward the stragglers as they come. (I tried imposing the consequence of telling the writers that anyone who misses the deadline has to wait until the following month to get paid, but the payroll person asked me not to do that.) I could fire these writers but — what do you know — they’re my best *writers* (and one of them is a friend of the owner’s).

    I realize this is not a huge, life-altering problem, but it annoys the hell out of me because I get paid peanuts for this gig — I do it because I really enjoy my editing duties, but I HATE dealing with the administrative crap. Is there anything I can do besides suck it up and deal?

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        I was thinking about that. I’m pretty sure that they know what the actual deadline is, and when I start sending a reminder email to them on which the rest of the writers’ team isn’t copied (since I just group-email all the writers for reminders), they’ll still know deep down that they have until X date, not X-2, and blow past X.

        But, I can’t know without trying, right? So I will give that a shot.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          You can tell them do to difficulties on the reporting/transmitting end you have had to make a new deadline for invoices. It’s not a choice, everyone must follow the new deadline.

          I would be tempted to say if everyone cannot get their invoices in at the new deadline the deadline will be moved back again, until ALL are able to complete this task on time. I don’t know how much wiggle room you have here.

        2. Ama*

          Can you start bcc’ing the group on reminders so they can’t tell who is and isn’t copied? I do this with a group of volunteers that can be tricky to get timely responses from — that way I can send extra reminders to the poky group without anyone figuring out that I don’t have to do it for everyone.

      2. EddieSherbert*

        What about just calling them out on it? Like, in an email give them an earlier deadline AND explain why they are getting an earlier deadline (you have been late X months in a row and it is a problem.)

        Otherwise, maybe CCing managers? I’ve occasionally found that helps light a fire under people’s bottoms…

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          There is no manager to CC — they’re freelancers. (Like I said, this would be easy to manage if it were my day job: either I’d be their manager and impose consequences, or I’d talk to their manager and try to get him/her to impose consequences.)

          But you’re right that I haven’t called out the pattern.

    2. katamia*

      Have you tried sending out another reminder the day before or the day of? It might feel excessive to you, but as someone who freelances and has to send invoices in on certain days, sometimes you know you have to do something but you can’t even remember what day it is, and having a reminder a couple days before the deadline is just too far in advance, since I only do short projects (mostly a 48-hour turnaround time), so a reminder a couple days in advance would just be too far for me.

      I’m not trying to say they’re blameless here because I fixed that problem by setting up Gmail reminders to tell me to get my invoices in, which is presumably something they could also do, but these people seem to be unwilling or unable to do that.

    3. Feathers McGraw*

      I don’t think it’s unreasonable to make the stragglers wait until next month if they miss the deadline.

      1. Feathers McGraw*

        Sorry, I missed the part where they asked you not to do that. Can you ask payroll why you can’t do it?

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          The answer I got was that it’s better to have the payouts spread over the year than to have a bunch of backlogged invoices hit at once. She didn’t say better how, but I assume she means for budget planning purposes.

          1. Feathers McGraw*

            How laborious, or not, is the invoicing process?

            I used to freelance and would procrastinate on doing invoices for one company as they insisted you fill in a PDF form they provided, in acrobat, which was the most annoying thing ever. Another made me use a portal that kept glitching.

            On the flipside I had one client with a really great portal that made the whole process take about two minutes.

            1. AdAgencyChick*

              They send me an Excel file. It’s not terribly difficult if you’ve been keeping track of what pieces you’ve written in the last month. I keep a running list of my own in Google docs (since I too have to invoice for my writing and editing work), so it takes me about two minutes to transfer that over, but I suppose if you don’t keep a list it might be longer to figure out what you need to invoice for.

              None of the other freelancers puts out nearly as much writing as I do, though — think three or four 300-word items from each one per month from them, versus twenty or more for me!

              Is two days not enough time for people to figure that out? Should I start emailing five days ahead or something like that?

              1. Feathers McGraw*

                I think they just sound disorganised. And I am personally always frustrated when I hear of freelancers making it hard for people to pay them. It’s frustrating for you as you’ve been prevented from actually doing anything about it – there’s no consequence for missing the deadline.

                What’s the subject line of your emails? Does it mention the company name, invoices being due and the deadline? If not, I would try making that clearer.

  32. pmac*

    Travel advice:

    I’m going to the 2018 Winter Olympics in PyeongChang, Korea and am so excited! I’ll be with three other women, and we already booked lodging. We entered into the CoSport lottery but didn’t have a ton of luck with the big tickets we wanted like Men’s and Women’s Hockey medal games or Women’s Figure Skating. I’d love advice on other sports or Olympics-y activities to check out. Any forums/sites you’d recommend? Are tickets available day of? Is it okay to go to an event alone?

    My boss told me to write to sponsoring companies to get free merch to trade with people – is this still a thing?

    1. Kowalski! Options!*

      I don’t know about free merchandise, but you might want to contact your local tourist office (or the national association of your favourite sport) and see if they have pins you could have, for trading. I worked as an athlete services coordinator at the Pan Am and Para Pan Am Games in Toronto during the summer of 2015, and pin swaps are a really bid thing with some countries – there are some people who go to international games events just to round out their pin collections.

    2. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Sports wise – any of the “big” men’s xc skiing competitions ought to be pretty good – especially the men’s 4x10k when Norway/Italy/Sweden duke it out for the title and it gets fierce. If you want to be indoors then I would opt for long track speed skating, particularly the men’s sprint events (500 and 1000) as the Dutch turn out a good bunch of fans. However, short track speedskating is hugely popular in South Korea and I can imagine the atmosphere will be electric for any of those events.

      What luck!

    3. Chinook*

      Bobsledding and luging are interesting to watch and, as a bonus, there is a lot of downtime between runs, so you can chat with spectators sitting around you.

    4. Aglaia761*

      Go for Womens and Mens alpine skiing. Mikaela Shiffrin and hopefully Lindsey Vonn will be there for the women.

      Short track speed skating is amazing to watch and the Koreans L.O.V.E. it. Long track speed skating is also fun, the Dutch roll in with half of the country in orange and take all of the medals. Dutch fans are THE.BEST!

      Bobsleigh and luge are also cool to watch and attend.

      Curling is surprisingly fun to attend. Wear sunglasses for the Norwegians crazy pants.

  33. JStarr*

    I’m currently researching how to pay our interns. It’s incredibly frustrating to me just how uninterested everyone else is about the issue. We run on a shoestring budget to begin with but unpaid internships just seem…wrong. They’re supposed to be a hassle to deal with because you’re teaching these kids, not just expecting them to do this other work.

    We’re also in an industry that is majority white, well off females (until you reach management, then it’s suddenly white, well off males *eye roll*). I figure by trying to get these kids paid, we can offset some of the financial issues that begin from the very first steps.

    But I’m receiving little help and it is annoying.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      It stinks that you’re not getting support here – I think what you’re doing is absolutely the right thing to do. Change is tough! I hope you can find a way to make it work.

    3. Here we go again*

      There has been a recent push away from unpaid internships (mainly for legal issues), so if you point that out, maybe other people will pay more attention.

    4. krysb*

      Provide them with the Department of Labor rules for legal unpaid internships (I’m assuming you work for a for-profit company). No one wants it known that a company uses unpaid internships (another note on unpaid internships – students have to pay for them through tuition) for free labor and nobody wants the Department of Labor in their business. Then there’s also the legal liability that occurs if the unpaid intern realizes s/he is working illegally and can file suit.

    5. Lillian Styx*

      My org has been struggling with this issue too! And I always find myself caught between my boss who wants them paid on a 1099 and the auditors who don’t understand or accept that the internship is not the same as employment (or is it?? the DOL and IRS directives often conflict arrgghh)

      So, sympathy.

      1. Here we go again*

        I think your boss is the one that is confused. They are still employees since you are presumably controlling their hours and directing their work. I would look at them as temporary employees.

        1. Natalie*

          Agreed. It’s not impossible to structure an internship in such a way that it would qualify as independent contractor, but it’s extraordinarily unlikely.

  34. Cat Accountant*

    Interviewers, do you respond to thank you emails from candidates when you’re not the hiring manager or in charge of communicating with them? I frequently do interviews for potential coworkers and I get a lot of thank you emails, but I never know what to respond with, if anything.

    2. Collie*

      I usually think it’s odd when interviewers respond to me unless it’s to a specific question or to provide information I didn’t already have.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      I’ve been interviewing for a role where I’m speaking with lots of partners/peers, and I don’t expect a response to my emails to them. I do hope they forward them because I try to be thoughtful about reflecting on what I learned and contributing any additional information they might be interested in. If you do want to respond, a simple, “It was great speaking with you. Best of luck in the process!” would probably suffice!

  35. MegaMoose, Esq*

    Well, I finally made some movement this week to move past my endless attempts to get a public sector job. Next week I’m meeting with a former classmate to talk about his practice in an area of law I’ve been interested in for years but haven’t really pursued so far. I’m pretty nervous about it, as networking scares the crud out of me, but I’m also kind of excited. I know this is a really basic step I should have pursued years ago, but I managed to make it years relying on job postings and had almost convinced myself I could avoid the networking game. I’ll take any good wishes floating around and hopefully can use this to build some momentum.

    1. Jean who seeks to be Ingenious*

      Here are good wishes and positive vibes: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      May your momentum-building give you a useful on-ramp for driving your job search in a satisfying direction.

      The rest of my post is a mixture of sympathy and unsolicited advice. Feel free to skip the advice!

      I hear you on the networking terror. I always imagined myself as the only socially awkward person among super-poised professionals. (Think of the perfect-looking people in those stock photo illustrations of office meetings.) It helped me to start networking in my personal life and on behalf of my child, not myself. Being an advocate gave me courage and interacting in a non-work setting made each encounter seem less scary. Not every interaction went well then or goes well now, but over time I became more comfortable approaching strangers and was able to transfer my developing skills into work-related conversations. I’ve learned how to reach out with a brief question or a friendly comment and how to hide most of my fears about being needy, naive, and/or awkward.
      Again, feel free to ignore if this isn’t helpful.

      1. MegaMoose, Esq*

        No, it is helpful! I am having a hard time imagining when one would need to network in their personal life, but it’s always nice to hear other people have the same fears, or that life goes on after an awkward interaction (save me from awkward interactions!). Fingers crossed!

        1. Jean who seeks to be Ingenious*

          Networking in personal life is usually to solve some sort of problem, ranging from pleasant (“where’s a good knitting supply shop?”) to annoying but not life-shaking (“where can I buy a good secondhand sofa?”) to mid-level crises (“my son needs an eye doctor” or “our daughter has ADHD and the school district refuses to give her extra time to complete an exam…do you know a good educational lawyer?”) to enormous, horrible, life-swallowing, physical, mental, or behavioral health issues (think cancer, opiate addiction, severe depression, attempted suicide…). People facing these crises may need skilled professional assistance, or a support group of fellow/sister sufferers, or allies who share their desire to make life easier for anyone facing the same problem in the future. (The latter might involve de-stigmatizing the situation, or working to change laws concerning a school district’s obligations to students with learning disabilities, or an employer’s obligation to work with terminally ill employees rather than simply fire them.)
          Gah. Sorry to write a novel here!

    2. JustaTech*

      Good luck! And let us know how the networking goes! I did a tiny bit this week and even though it was super low stakes with someone who I knew had the time and willingness (since they had brought it up to me a couple of times) I was still nervous. (It wasn’t a big deal at all, but I’m also not sure it was super helpful in the job-getting department).
      Hopefully the more success stories we hear from people who aren’t into networking the more the rest of us will be able to get up the gumption to try.

      1. MegaMoose, Esq*

        Thanks, I’ll probably update next week, because Fridays are usually SOOOOOO boring without the open thread! It’s been a while since my last networking attempt, so fingers crossed.

  36. Tired of Revisions*

    I work as a copywriter on an internal marketing team. Right now my supervisors are really getting on me for the number or revisions they have to make to my work and saying that the quality of my work is not where they need it to be. The problem I have is that at least half of the feedback they give is highly subjective. Think along the lines of replacing “Check out the 4 reasons below to see why” with “Read below these 4 reasons to see why.” merely because it sounds better to them.

    I’ve addressed before that I feel like the feedback I get is subjective and opinion-based, which has led to them providing ‘rationale’ for the feedback (which usually boils down to “I think this flows/sounds better”). I believe my supervisors should be looking at my work to see if it meets the needs of the request and properly addresses the audience using the correct strategy – not to get bogged down in differences of phrasing or not liking certain words based on their own personal preferences. How do I explain this to them?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think your supervisors get to determine what the bar for success is. If they want you to write in a certain way that matches their taste, I think it benefits you to pay attention to their style of writing and improve your attends to mimic that. There is such thing as a “brand voice,” and I would imagine that part of a marketing copywriter’s job would be to learn how to write in that voice.

      1. SophieChotek*

        I agree. I do a lot of internal copywriting and editing for our marketing team.
        Sometimes the changes I make/suggest really are: this just sounds better/flows better. (Or it fits better with what was said earlier. Or we’ve used this phrasing in earlier documents, so to be consistent…)
        Other times, it has been my work that has been changed and there have been changes/requested changes based on word preferences, etc. Like Not a Real Giraffe wrote, your supervisors may have some personal quirks, etc. (I think most writers do) but they are your supervisors so if this is the way they want it, I guess it is there call; even if you are correct what you wrote essentially says exactly the same thing.
        I’m not trying to pile it on and I get it can be frustrating when your supervisor comes back with silly changes or fights over whether “missions” and “vision” and “goals” are the same thing or not…but is this the issue you want to invest your time in pushing back on?
        If you are working with different editors/supervisors, can you learn/figure out what different styles/preferences they have? And write for that style? It might not be what you would pick, but it will probably save you time/headache.

      2. mamabear*

        +1. What works well in one context doesn’t always translate to another. Part of your job as a communicator is to learn those norms. If you can’t write according to your company’s style, that is a real problem.

    2. bopper*

      I think it depends on the audience…“Check out the 4 reasons below to see why” is more informal than “Read below these 4 reasons to see why.”
      “Check out” seems like a Buzzfeed Article. “Read below” sounds more business like.

      It is really about what type of publication it is.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        My guess is that they don’t like the conversational tone and prefer a more formal type of tone.

      2. MsChanandlerBong*

        “Read below…” sounds so incredibly stilted, and just plain incorrect, that I’d rather–as a reader–just see “Check out…”

        As written, it makes it sound like you’re supposed to look below the four reasons, not read the four reasons below. So I can understand why the OP is a bit annoyed.

    3. rubyrose*

      The fact that you are getting this feedback from more than one person makes me curious. Does more than one of them examine the same piece of work and disagree between themselves on what should occur?

      Also, how long have you been in this team, this industry? Is it possible that they know the audience better than you do at this point?

    4. Jenna P.*

      Does your team/company have a style guide? If not, could you suggest the team come up with one and spearhead the project? Creating one can ensure the whole team is on the same page about voice/wording choices/etc. and help you apply them each time, hopefully leading to less revisions.

    5. Princess Carolyn*

      Honestly, what’s really bothering me about this example is that “to see why” is kind of redundant. Both would sound better if they were “Check out the four reasons below” or “Read below these four reasons.”

      Anyway, if your supervisors are concerned about the quality of work, ask for more specific feedback. “I like it better this way” is a perfectly fine one-off change, but it sounds like you’re consistently not meeting their expectations, and you need to figure out why. Brand voice/tone could be part of it — do they want something that sounds more formal? More flowery? Conversational? Folksy? If they can help you identify the pattern, you can start to write closer to what they’re looking for.

    6. Jessie the First (or second)*

      So yes, oftentimes revisions can be frustrating because there are a hundred ways to phrase any one thing and if you have people review your writing, each person can cone up with a different way to say it, and all are fine.

      But if you are generally having your writing reviewed by the same people, then you need to make it your mission to understand their particular style of writing. Pay attention to the tone (what level of casual vs formal vs technical they use), the extent to which they work to avoid passive construction, favorite phrases, whether they prefer simple sentence structures or complex sentences with multiple clauses, whether they like or hate semicolons, etc.

      Basically, it’s not your job just to write well; it is your job to mimic the style of your managers. That’s not true at every organization – I worked once for a boss who wanted me to write in my own voice, and then he’d change around the wording. He wanted me to get the substance and leave setting the tone to him. But that’s not true at your place. So shift your focus from thinking “but my way is fine, and this is just your personal preference!” to “it is my mission to understand the ins and outs of your writing preferences, and mimic those.”

    7. Copywriter*

      I’m a copywriter too and from my experience, there’s no way to change people like this – you’ll never be the mind-reader they want. Smile, nod and start applying elsewhere. (And I’m surprised how much people are critiquing your clearly hypothetical example of “check out” vs “read”!)

  37. anon for this*

    I’m having ridiculous turmoil over a job I haven’t even applied for and could use a reality check from the good people of AAM! Or just a chance to unload, maybe.

    I’m 30 and have been at my current job for ~4.5 years. It’s meaningful work, we make a fun product, and company culture is great, but I live in a high COL area and the pay in the industry is… just adequate. Not much room for movement/promotion, etc.

    A job popped up on LinkedIn that, honestly, would not be as interesting or fulfilling as my current job. But I could totally do it, and after peeking at salaries, I’m pretty sure it would pay at least twice what I make now – life-changing money.

    I have gotten very comfortable and it’s been a while since I tried to make a big change in any area of my life, and frankly, I probably have some weird class issues around money – we had enough when I was growing up but my dad worked at the same job for most of his career, my mom stayed home and is now a supermarket cashier, and leaving a job I love for an amount that sounds eye-popping in the context of my childhood just feels like greed. Even though it would allow me to get my own place without roommates, get married, own property, have kids, hell, get a dog – all things I can’t do on my current salary, want to be doing, should be able to do at my age.

    I mean, really, I’m just going to apply for it and shelve the freakout until I get an interview IF I get an interview. But I’m kind of surprised by the strength of my own reaction to all this! The thought of leaving my current job breaks my heart, but maybe I just have some kind of weird job Stockholm syndrome…

    Oh, and my yearly review is coming up (the time when we usually get raises). I had planned to ask for a bigger raise than usual, and I guess I still should since I HAVEN’T EVEN APPLIED TO THIS JOB yet, but it would make it even harder to leave in a few months knowing that my manager went to bat for me. Argh!

    (Also, the job application uses Taleo, and I’ve seen so many people complain about it not saving their info across applications, that I was surprised when it wouldn’t let me apply with my email address because it was “already assigned to another user.” A bit of digging and I found the account I’d used to apply 5 years ago… to one of the company’s retail stores while I was doing internships. With all my info still there. It bummed me out to see “min. wage” preloaded in the optional salary field!)

    1. SophieChotek*

      Send in your application; encouraging you! I understand what you are saying about asking for a raise at your review — but I’d ask for it. Life happens and if the company culture is great (like you say it is) I would think your supervisor would understand your need to move on also. Best of luck!

    2. Spoonie*

      I would consider the things that would be important to you for a career, whether that’s meaningful work, salary, opportunity for promotion…then find job openings after you’ve compiled your wants/needs list. And by all means, wait until after your yearly review — you never know what might happen there.

    3. Newby*

      You should apply for the job. If you get an interview, you will be able to better determine if it is a job that you would be happy doing. People work for money. Wanting a job that would allow you to live without roommates does not mean you are greedy. You should definitely ask for a raise at your current job. You don’t know if you will even get the other job, let alone whether you will take it if offered.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Apply for the job. If you get called for an interview, remember you are interviewing THEM also.

      I would like to point out that your parents got married and had kids. I am guessing but they could have had a house and a dog also. I am not seeing much difference from what you want vs what your parents had. This is not greed, it’s life.

      But I am wondering if taking a job that would not be as interesting or fulfilling is actually what is triggering your concern about greed. And this one I would agree with you. It has a yukky feel to it. This is why you interview them, to find out if the job is soul-killing. Don’t put yourself on a hamster wheel, where you have to keep this boring job because you have a house-spouse-kid-dog. It is easy to see that in years to come you could feel like a robot going to this great paying but boring job just to keep the things you want in life.

      Talk to them. Find out if there is something there that surprisingly interests you.

    5. Jules the First*

      I just did this – moved from fun cool job at hip employer who paid peanuts to rather dull, fairly square corporate job that pays golden eggs.

      It was totally worth it. I sleep better, I eat better, I have more time and energy (and money!) for my hobbies. And you know what? It’s not nearly as boring as I was afraid it would be.

      1. Johnster*

        I did something similar several years ago. I agree that it was totally worth it. I can now afford to go on vacations and to concerts that I would never have been able to otherwise. Also, I am able to make financial contributions to several charities.

    6. MissGirl*

      Stay away from the rabbit hole. I used to freak out and then I would apply for the job and get rejected a day later. I realized that I had wasted so much time worrying about a decision I didn’t even have. You don’t have all of the facts yet to even make an educated decision so don’t try to. Apply and stop pre-stressing.

    8. AcademiaNut*

      Aside from the class issues, I think this is also a normal reaction for people who have been following the “do what you love! your job should be your passion!” advice, but have reached a point where they are no longer content living a student lifestyle, and feel guilty about prioritizing salary over a mission or cool job.

      But this is a totally acceptable thing to decide! Your job is only part of your life, and deciding that some other part of your life (location, family, your own place, more financial security, more free time) has become more important than your current job is perfectly fine, and very normal.

      Also, each person has a different balance. There are people who are happy staying in lower paying but cool jobs, and people who are willing to work a job they hate for money to indulge their other interests. And most people fit somewhere in the middle. So if you go off to the higher paying job, and find you’re actually much happier with less money but a more interesting job, you can make that a priority for your next move.

    9. Agnodike*

      You’re allowed to make the choices that will get you to what you do want, not to what you feel you should want. It’s OK to want to live in a bigger place, or be able to afford to eat out regularly or go on trips or get a dog or whatever it is that you’d use the extra money for. It’s OK to want those things more than you want the things you enjoy about your current job.

      I’d push back on the idea that you can’t get married or have kids below a certain salary figure, because people do those things every day making little or even no money! There’s also no age at which we “should” be doing those things. But I suspect you mean “get married the way I’d like to” and “raise my kids in a particular lifestyle, with fewer money worries than I’d have currently” and both those things are also perfectly OK!

      Your life belongs only to you, and that means you’re the only one who gets to decide which things make you happy and which things don’t. If you want more money, go get it!

  38. whichsister*

    Harking back to the post a few weeks ago about being available when out on leave.

    So I was out sick on Wednesday with a severe sinus headache. After previous incidents of calling me and putting me to work after I had been in the er, twice, (with documentation) and was put on bed rest for 2 days, I turned off my phones this time (I have a work phone and a personal phone) . I took my good sinus meds, put a warm rice bag on my face and slept for most of the day.

    Of course there was some sort of emergency that occurred that evidently only I could address (not true) and was the result of three other people not doing their due diligence or their jobs. And I was unreachable.

    I am not a doctor, I don’t have direct reports, I am not HR. I teach people how to serve tea from teapots and how to manage people who serve tea from teapots. There is rarely if ever a 911 issue in my field.

    So yesterday I was reprimanded for not answering the phone when I was out sick. Not just reprimanded, but basically chewed on for almost three hours, 2 of which were after normal office hours.

    When I finally insisted that I needed to go home at almost 7 p.m. I was told we would continue this conversation today.

    I can’t wait.

    2. Whats In A Name*

      Oooofff…I mean they are obviously unreasonable and ridiculous. But you still have to sit through it.

      I mean. Oooff.

    3. JLaw*

      I think you need to make it clear to your management team that when you are out sick you will NOT be reachable (as you are resting in order to get better). The same goes for annual leave (especially as they are being so unreasonable and are contacting you even when not an emergency). It is best to make that clear to them when you’re back at work.

      Do they do this with other people to? Has anyone in your workplace been cross-trained so that they can provide cover, should you be away? If not, then this is something that I would suggest. Also, do you have an FAQ (or wiki) that can provide answers to the most commonly asked questions that you receive? If not, I would recommend getting one setup and then direct people there so that they can find info themselves when you’re away.

      If they are not willing to implement the above (or listen to reason) then I would advise that you look for another job. It never fails to astonish me how some workplaces can be so unreasonable and they end up losing good staff because of it.

    4. New Window*

      Ugh. That’s bats#!t bonkers. I assume you weren’t necessarily asking for advice–scripts abound and all–but I will validate the heck out of that because your boss and coworkers are being extremely unreasonable. I hope you survived the rest of the “talk” with sanity intact.

      My fantasy reaction would be to pick up the phone, and then when they want me to answer the question, I suddenly have pain-killer/fever brain. I proceed to wax eloquent on how lava lamps are obviously superior choices for lighting, or why Pinky Pie is a terrible role model, or how the situation reminds me of the awesome wrapping paper I bought at 90% off at the after Christmas sale.

      Ah, an AAMer can dream…

    5. Evergreen*

      So I think there’s 2 things you need to do:
      1: look for another job
      2: understand how it happened that 3 other people didn’t do due diligence and caused this calamity. Come up with a solution to tackle the underlying issue. Your bottom line is that you can’t always be available: hopefully management will be more accepting of ‘I can’t always be available and here’s what we need to do to ensure this doesn’t happen again’

      But mostly step 1 :)

  39. writelhd*

    Saw a pie-in-the-sky dream job, and decided I’ll go ahead and apply, just in case. It is for a nonprofit professional organization that offers training and oversees a specific certification for professionals in the industry (I have it). They want three references submitted with application. Because I wasn’t really looking I hadn’t pulled references together yet, in fact I’m still at the first job out of college and I’ve been here 7 years, so gathering references that aren’t college professors or summer job bosses from a really long time ago is tricky. I’ve thought about reaching out to the following people, but each gives me pause, want to make sure it’s really appropriate to ask them:

    1)An independent contractor who I hire and work with regularly, who is also a member of the professional organization this job is with. She has the same certification as me but at least a decade more experience, plus a handful of other better certifications I don’t have yet. She seems to like me and talks like she thinks my work is good, but she also works with a LOT of other people, so I have no perspective on how I really seem to her. Also, if I left here she’d still be doing contract work for my company. Would that make her feel like I was drawing her into a conflict of interest, because my company hires her as a contractor?

    2) The former director of engineering from my company. He didn’t directly supervise me, and he left a few years ago, when I was really young in my career and had less responsibility and accomplishments than I do now. But I did collaborate with him on some projects, and he’s one of only two people who I worked with substantially at one point in this job who doesn’t STILL work here. However he left to be an independent contractor and my company uses him in that capacity currently, so it’s another case of is there some kind of conflict of interest to ask him?

    3.) The other person who left my company was the director of sales. He was let go by my company as he was getting burned out and it was showing, so that’s not great, but he’s got another job and he and I did work together really well so I think he’d be willing to do it for me despite how he might feel about my company letting him go. Except my job is technical, and the job I’d be applying to is technical, and he in particular is especially NOT technically knowledgeable at all. So I’m not sure how valuable a reference the hiring org would find him.

    4.) The instructor of the training course I took from this organization, and the overseer of my certification. (He doesn’t work directly for the organization either–they use independent training providers and independent certification providers, the organization just sets the standards.) Like the first choice, he’s a huge big wig in the industry, and he trains and oversees a lot of people with my certification. But I scored so well on the certification test he made note of it, and he once put a word in that got me included in an invitation-only experts conference for our field–but then only said hi briefly in passing and didn’t introduce me to anybody else there. He runs an industry blog and I comment on it sometimes, once I did a guest blog for him. The way the certification structure works, my company pays his company a yearly fee to provide the oversight, software license, and management of my certification. I’m not sure if that disqualifies him from being able to be a reference somehow.

    Thoughts?

    1. AnonAnalyst*

      Ugh, this is a tough one. I assume there aren’t any coworkers that you feel like you can quietly ask to act as a reference? I think if you can get at least one coworker it would put you in a better position. Or have you done any volunteer work, or consulted on anything related to your field? (I’m assuming you’ve thought through all of these possibilities, but I’m just throwing them out there in case they help bring up some new ideas!)

      I used to work for a nonprofit like this, although I suspect mine was focused on a different field. I’m basing my views on what would have worked best for that organization, but YMMV.

      How closely did you work with #3? It sounds like that one is the least fraught with potential conflicts of interest, so if you think that he will be able to provide any valuable feedback he would probably be a good choice. If I had to choose from this list for the other references, I would go with 1 and 2, mainly because it doesn’t sound like #4 will be able to speak to much beyond how you performed on the test, which I imagine the organization has access to in some capacity.

      1. writelhd*

        Thanks, that sort of confirms my instinct. I’m going to go with #3 because I did work very closely with him, and he’d have good things to say. And he’s a salesperson, so it can’t hurt to have him selling me, huh?

        #1 I will go with too, because she is blunt enough to be honest if she thinks it’s not ok, and caring enough to forgive me for asking. The only thing I have to lose is my ego if she says no Which I’ll recover from.

        I do have current volunteer work but it’s completely, hugely unrelated to the industry. But it is actually a pretty high level volunteer position with a lot of responsibility, basically a part time side job I don’t get paid for. Requires program management skills which, even though applied in a *completely* different arena, are a part of what this job asks for. Maybe it wouldn’t hurt to be in the mix.

  40. Turkletina*

    I experienced my first group interview earlier this week. It was unexpected and… interesting. For most questions (e.g., “Tell us about why you want this job”), your answer doesn’t depend on what the other folks have said. But when the question is “What do you know about our company?”, you’re the third person to answer the question, and you’ve done the same amount of research as the other two interviewees, it can be a bit of a struggle to come up with something new. The other thing that bothered me about the format was when it came time for us to ask questions of the hiring committee. You can’t really follow up on their response in a group setting; the dynamic was definitely “we answered your question, now let’s move on to a question from Wakeen”.

    It was also the good kind of interesting in that you don’t often get to see how other people behave in interviews. One of the other interviewees had the kind of confidence that only a white guy can have. He’d be saying things like “One of my strengths is X”, and I’d be sitting there thinking “I’ve spent the past seven years doing X without even thinking about it.” Or there were a couple of times where some of us interpreted questions differently than others, something I might not have noticed if I hadn’t gotten to hear another kind of answer. And, of course, a couple of times when the next person’s answer caused me to think “Duh! How could you have forgotten Y? And that time you did Z?”

    So, what are y’all’s experiences with/impressions of group interviews? Do you go into them with a different strategy than a solo interview?

    1. Leatherwings*

      I hate hate hate hate them. I’ve literally never succeeded in getting past that stage to a one-on-one interview after group interviews. I’m a naturally quiet person and I’m great one on one and in groups of people I know even, but I just don’t succeed when my personality/voice is competing against other candidates. And I hate the pressure I feel to talk over people or be forceful in my answers and I hate watching other people do the same. And I also feel like the white man confidence thing is an asset in those interviews I’ll just never have, even though I have no idea if data bears that out.

      My strategy is obviously a bad one since it’s never worked, but I always just go in saying that I won’t be the person who gets ultra competitive or loud. I’ll contribute when I have something to contribute and won’t compare my performance to others around me.

      1. Turkletina*

        Ooh, I didn’t think about that. I got really lucky in that the other candidates were respectful and took turns, and the interviewers were clear about the order in which they wanted us to answer the questions. I wouldn’t be able to handle someone talking over me in an interview.

    2. Can't Sit Still*

      I’ve had one group interview and it was a surprise. It did not go well. I did appreciate being able to hear the other candidate’s responses. I got pretty outrageous and absurd towards the end, because it was a veritable sea of red flags, and I was definitely not interested in the job at that point, so that was fun. At the very end, they gave us a form to fill out that asked us about the pros and cons of the job and told us to email them the responses and let them know if we were interested in the job. (I should have scanned the form and sent it to Alison for entertainment purposes.)

      This particular company was a small, family-owned business who needed to hire an “outsider” for the first time. They did have decent interview questions that required a distinct response from each candidate, so that was a point in their favor.

    3. Delta Delta*

      I’ve had a few group interviews recently. I always feel like I don’t know whose hand to shake first at the end. It feels odd. Not that it exactly answers your question, but I know I recently had one that seemed good and then I had no idea whose hand to shake at the end and I felt like I blew it. So, I just laughed it off and said something about how it was like we were all dancing. But it felt awkward.

    4. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Oh man, that does not sound fun. When you said “group interview” my first thought was one interviewee and multiple interviewers, which I have done many, many times. But multiple interviewees with one or more interviewers? Sounds like a nightmare. I don’t even know how I’d prepare for that.

  41. Nervous Accountant*

    I’m finally posting about this because this happened over the last few weeks and I didn’t want to jinx anything.

    So I had that coworker who had gotten aggressive with me and was just generally disrespectful and all around not a great person? Things were quiet after my boss talked to him (no one knows about the aggression incident).

    A while back, I asked my boss about something related to that CW–(so 2 of the metrics used to measure success is the number of returns completed and the turnaround time. This guy had the highest numbers and lowest hours = “success”, BUUUUUT he was also begging us to give him easy returns as well as dumping data entry work on interns). I asked my boss if he was aware, and he hadn’t been butttt then he said “don’t bug him, he gave his 2 weeks.”

    =O !!!

    But then? he said he had authorization to give a counteroffer. And he said he wasn’t sure if it was the right thing (my husband said I should have MYOB but I disagree). and i said hell naw. Actually no I didn’t say that, I just listed the reasons why I think a c/o is not a great idea and let him make the decision…

    His last day was supposed to be this Wednesday but he left on Friday, he only told a select few people and I found out the next day. My boss didn’t even know it was his last day until he was about to leave for the night at 8 PM.

    A couple of other random things happened since then too.
    Also, our workload increased exponentially this week, partly bc we’re down 1 person but also bc it’s our own internal deadline approaching and things historically get insanely busy at this time.

    53 days to go :-)

  42. officemgr*

    Any suggestions for inexpensive meeting snacks for about 20-30 people? We’ve done a dozen and a half bagels every week for years and everyone’s starting to get sick of them. The tricky part is our budget—about $20-$40—doesn’t let me get too creative. (Pizza is about $70, for example.) I’ve gotten fruit platters and muffins from a grocery store before, but I would love suggestions for other options as well!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Can you order individually wrapped items on Amazon (or similar) in bulk? I’m picturing little bags of trail mix or pretzels, those bags of assorted Hershey’s chocolates, Nature’s Valley granola bars.

      1. FN2187*

        This is pretty much what I do when ordering snacks for meetings. That, or I pick up a variety box of chips while on a Costco run.

    2. Emilia Bedelia*

      Veggies and dip? Crackers and cheese/cold cuts? Instead of getting the premade trays, get the components separately and DIY it. You could probably even get the precut vegetable bags/precut cheeses and you’d still come out ahead.

      Nachos (tortilla chips, salsa, queso dip, sour cream, cheese, jalapenos, lettuce, etc) are pretty popular at my office. Granola, fruit, and yogurt also makes an appearance sometimes.

      1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        Even just tortilla chips + salsa/queso/sour cream (Guacamole if you can swing it). Go for fresh salsa if you can, or fresher/ish (try to avoid the jars sold in chips aisle). Every office I’ve been in people seem to go nuts for tortilla chips + a bowl salsa + a bowl of guac.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Fruit and veggie platters are great because almost anyone can eat them, and they’re usually pretty fresh and tasty! I’d avoid bagels and muffins, especially if you have staff who are vegan and/or gluten-free.

    5. emma*

      Domino’s is super cheap– they have a $6/pizza deal for medium pizzas if you order at least 2. I’m loving some of the suggestions below! There’s also icecream + toppings (big tub) or hummus and pita chips/veggies.

    6. jm*

      -Cheese cubes and crackers
      -Chips and salsa
      – Hummus, pita and veggies
      – Maybe individually-wrapped ice cream bars in the summer? The kind they sell 6 or 12 to a box at the grocery store

    7. INeedANap*

      If you don’t mind doing a little extra work, getting those big industrial size blocks of cheese and slicing them with some crackers and throwing a few big bunches of grapes in the middle makes a nice looking platter for about $30.

    8. Rat in the Sugar*

      Hmmmm… would other types of pastry be okay? Panera’s has a big pastry ring that has different flavors in it.

      Otherwise you might try hitting up the grocery store for platters… they usually have several different choices. One veggie tray and one tray of crackers, cheese, and sausage should satisfy most palates, I would think.

    10. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      How about some cookies or brownies from the bakery section of your grocery store and make a mixed try of them? Sometimes when you by a bulk of them they are cheaper. We’ve done that for some of our meetings.

    11. Consuela Schlepkiss*

      I have a side hustle working for a grocery delivery service as an in-store shopper. Some of our orders are for businesses prepping for meetings.

      From what I have seen, at the low end of your price range, for that many people, I would budget 3 bags of chips (tortilla, pretzel, and one other); salsa or pico de gallo and guac; and baby carrots. As you go up in budget, you can add a selection of granola or cereal bars (including a small number that are gluten-free), pre-sliced apples or grapes, cheese cubes, and also get a 2- or 3-lb. bag of assorted bite-sized candies.

      If you get cheese cubes, there’s always the deli in the store, or Kraft and some store brands are selling cheese cubed, as well, which might save a bit of money. Just put them into another container to serve.

  43. Mike*

    Kicked butt in my interview on Tuesday I posted about last week. Very little IMO I could have done better.

    Post interview follow up was sent, and they are still interviewing so no news yet.

    The waiting game sucks, but I’m staying positive.

  44. job hunting*

    YOU GUYS. I have an offer – that I actually want to take! They really want me to accept, I’m negotiating for a bit more money, and they are huge on teamwork and learning/growing together.

    I adore my coworkers here… so giving notice will be hard. But there is an end in sight – thank you all for your much appreciated advice and support.

  45. Cruciatus*

    I still haven’t told my supervisor I’m interviewing in another department next week. I know I probably should, but my gut is telling me it’s not a good idea. I looked in the handbook and didn’t see anything saying protocol one way or the other. Every time I even think about it, something unusual comes up that needs attention right then. But I should probably rip this bandage off and hope to hell it won’t be used against me in any way. Anyone have a good, simple script for just saying it? I don’t want her to think I’m going to shirk my duties if I do/don’t get it. I’m going to continue to do my best either way.

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      Yes, you have to do it, and as soon as possible! If your boss hears about it from someone else, you have a problem.

      Keep the conversation focused on what you want out of the new department, and then it’s not about things your boss can take personally (if your boss is the type for that). You’re not “doing something to” your boss — you’re exploring ways to grow within your organization.

  46. Emilia Bedelia*

    One of my friends told me a story about a workplace issue that he had this week, and I’m curious what the wise commentariat here have to say.

    My friend works at a teapot factory. The teapot glazing machine has to be purged daily, or else it clogs. My friend is responsible for purging the machine during the week, but his boss (the owner of the company) does it on weekends.
    Apparently, the glazing machine clogged over the weekend (which is a big expensive mistake). When my friend asked about what happened, his boss told him that it was my friend’s fault that the machine clogged, because he put in the wrong glaze. It turns out that the boss did not actually purge the machine, and just lied and blamed it on my friend about it to cover up his own mistake.

    In addition to this incident, my friends’ boss is racially prejudiced against him and favors his other coworkers, and is just generally a not nice person to work for. If that wasn’t enough, his wife is the person responsible for HR (surprisingly enough, company morale is amazingly low :) ). My friend’s reaction to all this was “If I blatantly lied about a mistake to my boss, I would be fired. He shouldn’t be able to do that to me” and he’s actively job searching now, so that’s the good news!

    My first thought was obviously “your boss sucks, he isn’t going to change, get a new job”, but I’m curious how everyone would handle this in the meantime. In the interest of self respect/not taking any nonsense/clearing one’s name (I don’t think anything can save this job at this point- it’s all about the principle of the thing) what would you say to a boss that did this to you?

    1. Graciosa*

      My last date will be [Date].

      (There’s no point in saying anything further – the boss is not going to get it.)

    2. SophieChotek*

      Is there any way to prove that the boss lied about purging the machine? (And oh man, it’s awful that the wife is in charge of HR!)

      Otherwise yeah…this might be one of those…new job time.

      1. Emilia Bedelia*

        To be honest, I’m not really sure of the details.

        It’s a lost cause, I agree. The idealistic side of me is mad on my friend’s behalf because it is Wrong, but the practical side of me says that getting a new and better job is the best revenge.

        Anyway, enjoy my friend’s ridiculous boss story of the week! :)

    3. Not So NewReader*

      He can try to salvage it, I have in similar situations but all he has done is buy himself a little more time. And I do mean “little”.

      Basically what I did was don this very serious, business-like attitude, no cussing, no raising of the voice.
      Me: “oh, the machine clogged over the weekend? I am sorry to hear that.”
      Boss: “Well it is your fault.”
      Me: “Well, usually when it clogs that means it was not purged. Purging is necessary because the flaps and gaps fill up with glaze which hardens. Hardening time is about 5 hours after initial use. I purged on Friday so I know the flaps and gaps were clean when I left. Since the hardening time is 5 hours that means the glaze was applied 5 hours before the clog occurred. What time did you say the clog occurred?”

      Here the technique is to ignore the accusation entirely and go into a technical explanation of what happened and why. In my example here, I am hoping to all heck that the clog happened 5 hours into his shift. Probably to protect myself, I would preface the whole comment by saying, “What time did this clog happen?” When the boss indicated hour number 6, I would know I was going to win this round and pay for my win dearly later on.

      Yes, you have to think on your feet and you have to think fn fast. But if he is constantly in “self-protection mode” then he is probably used to thinking fast.

  47. Me*

    Day 106 of job search. I’m still invisible to anything I really want to do. :\ I keep getting calls from very low-paying receptionist jobs so I’m not applying to those anymore (dude, don’t call me; I only put that down to satisfy UI). I feel like I will NEVER get out of this admin trap. I’ve gone as far as I can go with those kinds of jobs because of the stupid dyscalculia.

    I interviewed for a job that would be project stuff at a manufacturer, so I would have to read blueprints, etc. and it’s a ton of data work. He fixed on the editing / proofreading stuff, but I think he’s thinking in terms of data matching more than actual DOCUMENTS. I’m a word person, not a numbers person. I literally asked him numerous questions and could not figure out what the hell he wanted. Even though I could learn a lot about project management, my visceral response to this is to run like the wind. It was just such a WEIRD interview.

    Plus, he made me take a stupid general knowledge test (on which I had to skip every single math question–we did discuss my LD because I’m not trying to hide it anymore). But the job pays $14 an hour to start, and that is literally the best I can do here (:P). I was making $18 when I left Exjob and that is really out of the norm for most office jobs here unless you’re a manager or an accountant. I don’t WANT to work forever in this industry (manufacturing), and I think he’s thinking I want to. BUT I DO NOT.

    And I think he’s vastly overestimating my knowledge of it. He’s basing it on me working at Factory Job for six years, but I was the receptionist. I did not do any work with CAD or specs or anything. I basically answered the phone, shipped samples, and filed stuff.

    I could work for a while and then bail, which is basically what I would do with any job I take here–as soon as I can get out, I’m out. IF that ever happens. (Dear Universe Make. It. Happen. K Thx Bai)

    If the universe is playing a joke on me, I’d rather not, thanks. Let’s just call it a day. If not, I need to f*cking SEE SOMETHING. Right now I’m really trying to focus on the manifestation of what I want (I also wrote everything down that I asked for as though it’s already happened). But it’s f*cking hard not to sink into despair. Rawr!

    3. SeekingBetter*

      Despite the fact that it’s not a dream job by far, why not take it for now and keep applying? I’m sorry to hear about your dyscalculia :(

    4. Kj*

      As a dygraphic lady, I get it. Sometimes employers just don’t get that I can not just ‘write well’ for the day. It isn’t really about effort. I might be able to fake it for a sentence or two, but long term I just cannot write neatly. It sucks, especially since people tend to assume my handwriting means I am stupid. I don’t have any words of wisdom sadly. Just heaps of empathy and positive thoughts.

  48. Freshguy*

    Interview questions/red flags to help weed out micromanagers needed!

    I am part of the interview team in finding a replacement for our ex-manager. And our department would reeeeally like this person to not be another micromanager.

    Any ideas for questions I could ask? Or any red flags in the interviewee’s answers/demeanour to watch out for? Thanks! :)

    1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      Eagerly waiting on responses to this! I do not do well with micromanagers and would love to incorporate/keep in mind these suggestions during my next job search.

    2. Newby*

      Why not ask them to describe their management style? Micromanagers would probably say that they are hands-on and involved. You could also ask how they handle delegating important tasks or pose a scenerio that ex-manager did not handle well and ask them how they would handle it.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      Honestly, you can just ask someone to describe their management style. Then you need to listen really hard! I’m sure everyone says they aren’t a micromanager, but some people would describe themselves as more “hands on” or “engaged in the details” or something.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      What makes the difference between a good employee and an excellent employee?

      How long was the last person in this position?

      What is the plan for employee development/future training?

      What does your team excel at?

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      The problem with asking people to describe their management style is that most suck at describing it accurately. I’m going to turn this into a post next week if that’s okay with you!

      1. Freshguy*

        That would be fantastic! The manager’s role does require a very strong leader, but we also have an experienced team that knows what it’s doing, so we’d rather not be under a micromanager’s rule… again.

        Anything to help us avoid it this go around would be greatly appreciated :)

    6. FishCakesHurrah*

      Hmm. Well the last time I was interviewed by a micromanager she had literally taken a red pen to my resume.

      Micromanagers don’t often think they’re doing anything unusual. You could ask how involved they like to be in the projects they delegate to their reports? But that question is pretty obvious in its intentions.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, my previous manager before this one liked to proclaim, “I’m not a micromanager; I’ve never been a micromanager.”

        She was the WORST micromanager in the world. I got called into her office for making eye contact with a coworker in a meeting (“Why did you keep looking at Tom!?” “Uh, because every time he would cross his legs he would kick my chair.”) Another coworker got written up for dropping his pencil on the table in exasperation. Not throwing — dropping. She called it an “outburst”.

        I am so glad to be out of there.

    7. Just say NO to micro mangers!*

      One question: Do the people in your group work for you, or with you? Their answer will tell you volumes about their management style…

  49. Lady Blerd*

    I voluntarily cancelled my day off because of a planned activity but our freakishly mild weather got rid of most of the snow so IT was cancelled. And then IT decided to push an update that has eliminated the MS Office software so I can’t do half of my work. Swell.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      What program? Be terrified, but also excited. Grad school was one of the best periods of my life.

      1. Justme*

        HR. It will be part time since I work full time (at a university, and get tuition reduction as a benefit) and am a single parent. I think it will take me 3.5 years to complete the program. And it’s something that I can use to leverage for a higher paying position here, or move to another sector.

    4. Silver Radicand*

      Congrats! Everyone at grad school is terrified at some point or another. But you got in, so obviously they thought you should be able to make it! Don’t let imposter syndrome get you. It sucks, been there, done that. And if you decide that you actually don’t want to get a job that requires grad school, dump it and try something different.

    5. anonamasaurus*

      Congratulations. I’m almost through my first year of a low-residency program while working FT. It’s hard, but you can totally do it!

      1. Justme*

        I’ve been taking undergrad classes to get myself back in the “going to school” mindset so I hope it isn’t too hard an adjustment. I work in the same building as my professors so it shouldn’t be so bad.

  51. FN2187*

    It looks like I could potentially be out of work for six weeks between the end of my contract and starting grad school this summer. Any ideas on what kind of work one could do during that time? I’m a terrible server, so restaurants are not a possibility.

    1. Justme*

      Retail. It can be hellish, I know. I worked in retail for many many years. But they may hire you for the short period of time as long as you are upfront about it. Plus, you can leverage it for some winter seasonal work as well.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Babysitting/nanny gigs would be great, and in high demand in the summer! (If you like kids, of course) Also consider housesitting/pet-sitting. You could also look into temp agencies.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Register with a temp agency. You can probably pick up a couple of short term gigs covering for vacations and whatnot.

      1. Leslie Knope*

        I definitely second this. I used a temp agency during a break between schooling and another job. My gig that was supposed to last a few days turned into the full time period that I needed! They usually pay well and are interesting.

    4. Rob Lowe can't read*

      Summer camp or summer school? That would be dependent on your interest in/comfort with interacting with children, obviously. I was an instructional aide at a few summer school programs before I got my teaching license and it was usually pretty easy, although pay could certainly vary.

    5. FN2187*

      I currently work with children, and it’s…not my favorite thing. I think temp agencies are looking like the way to go.

      I am trying to workout an earlier last day with my employer. Though I am under contract, either party can terminate employment at any time. If I can leave earlier, I can get a full-time student job for the summer at my university. My employer is being fairly wishy-washy about this whole thing, and I don’t want to be a total jerk and just up and leave. But I may have to.

      1. Letters*

        Go for the student job if you feel like that’s a strong possibility. My wife’s had some experience with temp agencies, and they can take a while to find postings sometimes, so it’d be risky to completely rely on them.

      2. zora*

        Temp work is great for this kind of thing. Register with multiple agencies, and you have a better chance of getting work quickly. And the bonus is you can be honest with them about how long you are around, and they can find you gigs that fit your timeline.

        And if you have experience in food service, you can probably quickly get work with a catering company. I found it great for picking up cash quickly, but it’s way simpler than waiting tables.

  52. Anon for This*

    My sister is quitting her job to start a completely commissions based sales role. She has no sales experience and is the main breadwinner. I’m nervous for her but understand it’s her life. Does anyone have any success stories they can share? Does anyone have tips for managing finances in this situation (the product isn’t seasonal but the best sales happen in the spring/summer according to the company)? Tips for what the signs are that it might not work out?

      1. Letters*

        I’d glassdoor it if it were my sibling — whether it’s an MLM for sure or not, I would be EXTREMELY nervous to take a position like this one that’s completely commissions based, especially for someone just starting out. I’ve heard horror stories about magazine / newspaper roles of this type. There are a lot of really good resources for sales classes on audiobook; I’d actually recommend doing that as opposed to just reading something, because for a lot of people that might help it “stick” better. But mostly she needs to understand that this isn’t something you can just learn “on the job;” if it’s something that she has time before she starts, she needs to start learning on her own, NOW, and not rely on the company to provide. Most companies with sales roles don’t train for selling.

  53. R*

    I’m looking for advice on how people manage sitting down all day in front of a screen. I do math modeling and programming, so all aspects of the work require a computer. But I’m finding the inactivity/sitting in a cubicle all day is driving me nuts! My current position discourages working remotely or in other locations besides my cube. I do like my work but I’m finding myself wishing I’d gone into a more active field. People in similar situations, please share tips!

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      What about a “convertible” standing desk? You can get a riser to go on top of a regular desk, many of which will adjust up and down between standing and sitting heights. When you stand it’s easier to fidget, and I don’t get that feeling like I’m going to doze off in the afternoon.

      1. Amber T*

        Ditto to the standing desk! My company purchased Varidesks for anyone that requested them and it’s been a life changer. But before that, we were stacking binders and books under our computers and keyboards (most of us don’t sit with clients in our office – the few people who do requested standing desks and all of a sudden we all had them).

        I also have a FitBit that buzzes on my wrist if I don’t take 250 steps in an hour. It’s a great reminder to get up and move if you haven’t done so in a while.

      2. emma*

        We have this kind, from just stand [dot] org, that attaches to your regular desk, and adjusts easily. I’m not as good at standing, but other folks love it.

      4. SophieChotek*

        Ditto. I totally want to invest in one of those convertible desks. I don’t have one right now, but the coffee shops near my house all have tall tables, so sometimes for a break I go over there instead and stand.

      5. writelhd*

        Use lunch break to go exercise. Either go walk around, at a nearby park, or heck even the parking lot. Sometimes, lunch break non-withstanding, I grab a coworker and say “hey lets go walk around the parking lot” for 10 minutes and talk about something that’s bugging me with work and it can result in new perspective and problem solving. Sometimes, I skip lunch break (just eat at my desk) one day to take a two hour lunch the next day and go to the climbing gym. We have showers here, so that helps, but a lot of gyms probably have showers there too. The thing is, breaking up the routine is a mental break too that often results in thinking better, being more productive, being less grouchy.

    2. Chickaletta*

      Most people don’t like sitting in front of a screen all day, so you’re not alone in this at all. Take breaks to visit a coffee shop, get a snack from the breakroom, etc., eat lunch somewhere else than your desk, if you need to talk to someone, occasionally walk over to their desk instead of emailing (do this with discretion though, you don’t want it to get to the point where you annoy the other person). If you have a choice, opt for a desk near a window. Other than that, stay active outside of work – keep screen time at home to a minimum. Get outside, get exercise. For me, it was easier to sit at a desk throughout the day after doing a two mile run in the morning before work.

    3. Emi.*

      I also do math modeling and programming (in R!) and I find it helps to take short breaks and walk, even if it’s just down the hall to the bathroom. I have to go down the hall to get hot water for tea, as well, and to get things from the printer. Can you build short trips into your day?

      1. JustaTech*

        Yes, this! I found I managed to get in a lot more little walks down the hall when I was drinking tons of water (a straw helps so much). First, I need water. Then I need to go to the bathroom. Then I need more water. Repeat. Also, you might consider setting an alarm on your phone or watch every hour-ish to remind you to move around.

    4. nom de anon*

      Is there anything you can do to add more movement?

      What about a yoga ball (or yoga ball chair) and/or a balance board for when you’re standing? I find that bouncing and balancing is enough for me to get the fidgets out, and I have a regular desk chair and standing mat for when I don’t feel like wobbling around. These are very popular in my cube farm, though the office vibe here is also super casual.

      Also, I know you said that you use a computer basically all the time, but is there any element of brainstorming or “drafting on paper” type tasks? If so, could you try using whiteboard? I find that writing on whiteboards is more physically active and engaging, plus I like the different perspective it gives me, and it’s a break from staring at a screen. I often use a small conference room, but if you’re tied to your cube is there enough space to add one to a cube wall?

      Finally, actually getting out and moving makes a huge difference for me. Where I work, we’re encouraged to go on walks during our breaks (big worksite wellness push around here). For me, even 5 minutes outside makes a difference, and it makes the break feel more like real time away from work.

    5. Whats In A Name*

      In addition to adding activity can you add a radio or other background noise if the silence/sitting is part of the issue. I sit all day and find this helps me a TON.

    6. Princess Carolyn*

      In addition to getting up and moving around whenever I can, I will sometimes find an excuse to handwrite something just to get my eyes away from the screen. In my case, that’s usually my to-do list, plus any random ideas that come to my head, the occasional diagram, etc. Even if I end up transferring that info onto a computer later.

      Also, if a lot of your job involves watching something on a screen (rather than actively typing or clicking), invest in some fidget putty or other toys you can mess with while you do that.

    7. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      I try to take a quick lap around the inside of the building twice an hour to make sure I am up and moving

    8. Leslie Knope*

      I go on walks during my lunch hour. Even just breaks to walk outside for a few minutes help me. I have a desk fan which helps me control my environment a little bit better. I recently redecorated my cube so I actually like looking at things in here. I clean it every Friday (wipe down the desk, organize paper) which helps me enjoy the space. I have a foot rest that I put my feet on. I also will write things by hand often look away from the screen. I also am an avid audiobook listener and will do that during more mindless tasks I’m performing or while on my walks.

    9. Windchime*

      I have an adjustable thing that holds my monitors and keyboard so I can raise it up and stand periodically. I also make sure to get out and walk at lunchtime, and try to take a break and walk to Starbucks in the morning. I drink a lot of water, so there are trips to the bathroom.

      Sitting all day is really hard on the body and my back is suffering.

  54. Amber T*

    Someone in my hallway has decided to bathe in their cologne. I am not amused. My office door is closed (semi frowned upon in my office), but I’ve already let me boss know why he’s cool with it (he’s not the perp). Might be in need of a gas mask. Please send help.

    (Please don’t overscent yourself at work. Signed – every person with a scent intolerance.)

    1. Amber Rose*

      Last year someone attempted to cover the odor of the power tools they were using by flooding the building with maple scented “air freshener.” At first it was like, everything smells a bit like pancakes, whatever. But then, then it smelled like we were being smothered in pancakes. And I started to feel like someone was actually trying to shove pancakes up my nose. The smell increased in power at a steady rate until I was starting to hallucinate pancakes.

      In other words, I feel your pain. Breathe through your mouth as much as possible. :(

    2. Not So NewReader*

      You could try putting out a bowl of vinegar near you. Vinegar can tend to absorb chemical smells.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      We had someone at OldExjob who drowned himself in cologne. One time me and the rather blunt facilities manager were complaining about it in FM’s office, and FM said sarcastically, “Hi, I’m Bob! I stink like a French whore!”

      Despite the un-PC nature of the mimicry, it took me over an hour to stop giggling.

    4. urban teacher*

      I am really sensitive to patchouli and think that if someone can wear it especially in close quarters than I should be able to throw up on them when my migraine hits.

  55. Sibley*

    Every single project I’m working on at work is hard, complex, and a pain the @ss. Also, high profile. I’m working with the manager way more than usual because crap is going over my pay grade so much. There’s one project where I’m basically out of it and it’s gone to the manager and VP!

    I want, just for once, a nice, easy project. The last year has been nonstop. Just one easy one…

    1. Lucy Westenra*

      I’m sorry. Remember to unplug from work every so often–reserve a weekend for just relaxing and socializing and catching up on your Netflix queue. It helps get through the tough days.

      1. Sibley*

        I’m actually working from home today! and don’t work weekends hardly ever, which is very nice.

        The even better part – something that was going smoothly has hit a bump. My poor manager – she’ll get pulled into this one too, though hopefully it won’t be as bad. And we’ve got more time.

    2. periwinkle*

      Bah, let Fergus handle the easy projects. The crazy hard projects are more fun! Or so I keep telling myself, like crooning a reassuring lullaby in the face of fanged teddy bears lurking under the bed.

      (actually, they *are* way more fun than the easily-defined responsibilities on my official job description)

  56. AdAgencyChick*

    Been meaning to poll the group on this for a while: What’s a situation from early in your career where you’d have stood up for yourself if you’d known better?

    I’ll start: When I was in high school and worked retail, I was super scrupulous about my cash register but one day I was counting up at the end of the night and I was $20 short. I was distressed as hell, because I knew I hadn’t stolen it or miscounted.

    The store manager decided to solve the problem by making the three people who had touched the register that day (me, another floor worker, and an assistant manager) each contribute 1/3 of the $20. The store manager said she was pretty sure she knew what happened, but that this was the only fair way to resolve the problem. So I was out money — I realize less than 7 bucks, but that was more than an hour’s pay for me at the time and I was PISSED. But since I didn’t have the manager’s support, I didn’t know what else I could do.

    If I had that to do over again, I’d have refused to pay, even to the point of quitting over it. My manager knew I was conscientious and a hard worker, and I don’t think she’d have wanted to lose me (or if she had, I could have applied somewhere else, since people still shopped at malls in the ’90s and there were plenty of stores hiring).

    A while later I heard that the assistant manager who had been one of the three to cough up the money was fired for credit card fraud. Grrrrr.

    1. FN2187*

      While in college, I worked at the food court as a cashier. One day, my register came up $8 short. The managers accused me of stealing it — which, of course, I did not. They tried to force me to sign a disciplinary form admitting to the theft, but I refused. I quit that job and transferred to another position on campus soon thereafter. I later found out that the finance division had lost the $8, just like I had suspected.

      However, my new manager told me that former manager had called me “untrustworthy” and a “potential thief.” I sincerely regret not pushing back against that. Whether or not it was illegal, it was still a crappy thing to do.

    2. Amber T*

      My first job was a mess – lots of management issues. I was fresh out of college so despite my coworkers constantly telling me ‘this isn’t how a normal job works’ (as far as corporate’s ridiculous interference), I just assumed that all adults had their ducks in a row and this was completely normal. Bills (supposed to be handled my corporate) were never paid, rape jokes were made on conference calls (by someone in corporate, I don’t remember his title but he was HIGH UP THE CHAIN), I was “trained” to make “collection calls” in a way that’s almost certainly illegal in my state. When a coworker in my office killed himself, I quit without a job lined up but still gave the 4 weeks notice. In my “exit interview” (why did you quit???) with corporate, they kept pushing my coworker’s ‘unfortunate passing’ as the reason I was leaving. I remember mentally screaming in my head all sorts of things about how the company was run, how so many people in corporate were not good managers (because hey, let’s make rape jokes! and other awful things), but I just sat there and nodded. On the one hand, what I *wanted* to say wasn’t appropriate either, but I part of me feels like I should have stood up for myself and my coworkers more. I’m shocked that company is still running.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        Something tells me they wouldn’t have listened if you’d spoken your mind in the exit interview.

        1. Amber T*

          They wouldn’t have – they had their heads so far up their own butts that they would have retained nothing. It’s a combo feeling of wistfulness that I should have tried anyway and living out a great “F you, awful job!” fantasy.

      2. literateliz*

        “I just assumed that all adults had their ducks in a row and this was completely normal” – this is exactly what happened at my mess of a first office job. (Although that said, it sounds like your old company puts mine to shame!)

        I was in college and took a so-called “work-study” position working for my then-boyfriend’s crazy mother. I suppose if put in that position now I wouldn’t stand up for myself so much as I would RUN LIKE THE WIND. She told me to hide our relationship and say that I found the job through an ad, because she’d pulled strings to get an assistant position created in her office and Jane was jealous because she really needed an assistant. (This sets off all my drama alarm bells now and made me uncomfortable even then, but like, an adult told me to do it so it must be fine, right? Sigh, I was so naive.) This lasted for about a day before her other son (who also worked there) rocked up and loudly asked if I was coming to Thanksgiving again this year, because of course, if you’re going to pull some shady ninja-spy shit with your new employee, you’re not going to bother mentioning it to your son, so that your employee looks like an ass in front of her new coworkers. Facepalm.

        Then she sued the company, told everyone she was out on medical leave (yeah, the lying was a pattern), and left me alone in the office for about a month fielding awkward calls from people who were genuinely concerned about her well-being. By this point I was the HR contact person for about 30 interns (in hindsight…WTF? I guess that would have been reasonable if I’d had any supervision whatsoever) who were nearing the end of their summer internships and needing flights booked home and stuff, but since my boss had bailed and no one else really knew what I was doing there, I was let go and had to quickly offload that duty onto someone else in HR. I wish I had advocated better for the interns, if not myself. Definitely had the awkward exit interview with the nodding and the non-answers. Now I chalk it up to a learning experience, but damn.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      My first job was as a lifeguard at the local pool. A few of my managers were very immature young adults who loved tormenting me and the other shy kids. I wish I’d stood up to them! They walked all over me: played pranks, told me wrong information, pushed me in the pool, etc.

      Fortunately management changed a lot over the course of my time there. By the time I left, I loved my managers and was one of the most respected employees there.

    4. Ell*

      Similar story about coughing up my own $$. I managed a budget that included money for work vehicle parking, maintenance etc. Also lived in a city where parking was really really really hard, and getting parking tickets was a fact of life.

      I got ONE ticket on a work vehicle the entire time I worked there, and it was early in the morning before I got to work when they normally didn’t ticket and my boss refused to let me take money of my work vehicle budget to pay for it, and I had way underspent that budget for the quarter so the money was just sitting there. My boss’ contention is that I should’ve woken up early to pay for parking remotely, even when I was already working 70 hours a week for that job.

      I pushed back a little but ended up giving up and just paying the ticket out of pocket. Still annoyed at myself.

    5. Kowalski! Options!*

      Some twenty-some odd years ago, I was working for a media outlet that, quite often, invited movers and shakers in to speak to the senior editorial staff. I had two bosses, and most of the VIP handling fell to the younger of the two bosses, a 29-year-old (six months younger than me) who, to this day, still reminds me of Miles from “Murphy Brown”. One day, the VIPs happened to be the C-suite denizens of a major bank, and as I took their coats and went to hang them up, the CEO of the bank (who had a bit of a reputation as a man-about-town) made some sort of comment that had the other men (except my co-boss) chuckling behind my back like Beavis and Butthead. And when a bunch of forty-something guys do that, you know they’re not laughing about baseball scores. I looked at my boss, hoping he’d stand up for me. Nothing. Just kept staring at the ground while these guys chuckled and checked me out, up and down. They filed out. I went to the bathroom and cried tears of rage at the way I’d been sexually harassed without a manager standing up for me.
      *These days*, I know what to do: Just look the perp dead in the eye, neutral look on my face, and say, “I’m sorry, I didn’t hear that – could you repeat that a bit louder, please?” (And then march right down to the HR department and report the incident.) One of those classic incidents where life gives you the test first, and the lesson, later.

      1. Letters*

        I like that line — “where life gives you the test first and the lesson later.” Absolutely the case.

    6. Emi.*

      Not exactly my career, but looking back on my highschool babysitting work, I wish I’d been more assertive about saying “Sorry, ma’am, I still have schoolwork to do so I can’t stay to talk.” I babysat for lovely people, but my goodness some of them loved to chat.

      1. JustaTech*

        Oh how I wish I had pushed back harder about my babysitting. One time I sat for three children under 4 years old for ~7 hours, and then had to wait another hour after their dad got home before the mom got home so someone could drive me home without having to pack up all the kids. The mom was late because a blizzard was coming. I got home after midnight, I got $20 and I was all of 13.

      2. CheeryO*

        Ugh, babysitting. I got $5/hour from two neighbor families – one with two insanely hyper children, and one with three kids, including one with autism who I did not know how to handle at all. It was always way more trouble than it was worth. If I could go back, I would tell them “thanks but no thanks.”

    7. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      Working at startup (first job out of school) that illegally classified me as an independent contractor. I honestly didn’t understand when I accepted the position, but as my role shifted (over the course of 2 years) it became more and more clear that I should not be an independent contractor. I overheard a manager joking about how much trouble could get them in. I was still too afraid to say anything because I didn’t think I could find anything else and out of some sort of misguided sense of loyalty.

      I finally spoke up because I was going to be kicked off my parent’s insurance coverage soon. I just asked about moving from independent contractor status to full-time employee. By the end of the week I was laid off. I was devastated and now that I understand the severity of the issue I realize I should have spoken up way sooner!

      Though I did get revenge. They didn’t think to revoke my email access until days later, so I went into my work email and forwarded myself dozens of emails detailing my work responsibilities from my boss and with praise from my boss. I applied for unemployment. They tried to fight it, but I was able to prove that my work should not have been classified as contract work, so I won. Apparently this triggered an audit, and within a year the company ceased operations. Owners eventually sold the company/content.

    8. KR*

      I had a manager at a coffee shop I worked at who was a complete d!CK. Not only was he a sex offender who was supervising underage women (not me, but he sexually harassed a teenaged co-worker and when she complained to the owner they fired her rather than admit they didn’t background check the guy!!!!), but he frequently messed up the schedule like forgetting to schedule a closer or only having one person on so that person was swamped and couldn’t take a break at all. If he forgot to schedule a closer he would guilt you the day of to take the shift. My then boyfriend (now husband) was away in military training for most of this so I usually stayed after when he asked for the money. He came home on leave and we had a special day planned and manager forgot to schedule a closer. No one else was willing to stay so he turned the pressure on me and I politely told him again and again that I had plans and couldn’t stay. He then got mad at me and when I became frustrated told me to stop acting like a brat (I was 19 or 20 years old at this point, not young at all in the realm of food service for context). That was one of the flags that made me realise this job was not worth it but I wish I had stood up for myself better at the time (I didn’t stay late but I wish I had addressed his disrespect). That and after he was fired because the teenagers parents threatened to sue, our next manager had no food safety practices at all and used low quality ingredients. Slowly business declined and the place went out of business soon after I left. Disgusting.

    9. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Two I can think of, both in high school:

      I worked under the table for a small business that provided pony rides at kids’ birthday parties and other events. It was a high-end, expensive service (one pony, one handler, one-on-one attention to the birthday girl or boy, etc. — not six sad ponies walking in circles at the petting zoo). I was a pony handler, and my daily schedule started with grooming and preparing a pony at the farm, doing 4 parties, then bringing the pony back to the farm. I was paid by the party, and not paid for any time before, after, or between parties. A few times, a party didn’t pay (this was before the internet; folks wrote checks that I was given after the party), and when that happened I wasn’t paid my share of the party cost.

      The other one was also horse-related. I very briefly worked at a ranch in a state park that provided trail rides. I had been hired to lead trail rides, but first had to go through a training period of unspeccified length working in the barn (grooming horses, mucking stalls, etc.). I wasn’t comfortable with how the horses were treated, and I walked off the job in the middle of a shift (and reported them) after 2 or 3 days. I never heard from them; it’s like they didn’t even notice that I had been there, left, or never got paid.

    10. Taylor Swift*

      In the very first interview I had for a “real” job out of college I got asked if my five year plan included getting married and having babies. I wish I’d had the nerve to walk out.

    11. Tris Prior*

      My first job was cashier at a fast food restaurant; I was 16. One of the cooks used to bring porn magazines to work and one day cornered me in the back, opened up a magazine and shoved a pretty explicit photo in my face. I told the (female) manager on duty and she just gently scolded him: “now, Fergus, you know that’s not a cool thing to do.” He wasn’t otherwise disciplined. I should’ve gone over her head and reported him for sexual harassment – or even told my parents – but I guess I was so shocked I didn’t think to?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Or gone to the police.
        It was not that long ago things like this just got an eye roll. He was counting on your shock and he was counting on the fact that nothing would happen to him.

    12. Effie*

      I had a part-time retail job in college and one day one of my managers asked me to go to Starbucks for her and she’d pay me back. She never did. It was $5-$7 which was about what I made in an hour, and I NEVER spent money in restaurants/coffeeshops/etc so it’s not even like I planned a Starbucks run and asked if anyone wanted anything. I really didn’t want to pay for her and I still wish that I’d said that I was unable to pay for her and she would have had to figure something else out.

      This, among other events in college, did teach me not to lend someone money unless I was willing to write it off. I do have awesome coworkers now and when we order lunch everyone pays the order-er back the same day (if someone doesn’t have cash handy they run out to the bank before they leave for the day).

    13. Toodie*

      I was working as an admin at a manufacturing company, answering to the materials manager. The product we made at the company used a component that had small stand-offs–think of the bumps on a Lego. There was a meeting to talk about how we could revamp those components to remove the bumps for a special project.

      I was the only woman in the room, of course, the admin taking notes. The men kept referring to the process that we would need to use to remove the bumps from the components as “cutting the tits off” them. And then sending sideways glances at me, I guess to see if they could get a rise out of me. I tried to stay neutral, kept taking notes, never told anyone about it until now.

      I wish I would’ve raised hell.

    14. Elizabeth West*

      Long ago, I worked at Golden Corral before they were a buffet. We had to wear these very short skirts, brown plaid shirts, and brown plaid kerchiefs. I mean so short you had to squat to pick something off the floor because you sure as hell couldn’t bend over. One day, I was walking past a table of men and this older dude grabbed me suddenly and pulled me onto his lap. I was busing and had an armful of nasty used plates. I managed to get away, but I wish I had dumped the heavy plates full of crap on his head. My boss probably would have fired me but that really sucked. I didn’t even say anything because I didn’t know what to say. :P Thinking about it later, I wished I had petitioned the company that the female employees be allowed to wear trousers like the men. It might not have made a difference with the sexual harassment, but I spilled lots of stuff on my bare legs, too.

      Also the time a SYSCO (food supply) vendor came up behind me (another food job) and massaged my shoulders, completely out of the blue and without saying anything. That one freaked me out because there was nobody at the restaurant but me and him. It happened while I was outside smoking, before I clocked in–I waited until someone else showed up before I went inside. I really wish I had said something to him, or at least to my boss. He never did it again, but luckily he didn’t come back while I was by myself.

      Now, of course, I just hit people who touch me inappropriately. Verbally, unless they don’t stop.

      1. Letters*

        Holy crap, that’s awful. I would have FREAKED, especially when I was younger. I wasn’t the type to strike out, but I probably would have screamed at the top of my lungs like a horror movie idol.

    15. Rusty Shackelford*

      I wouldn’t say this was early in my career, but it helped get me in my career. I had dropped out of college and had a clerical job at the school. My boss was an awful boss and an awful person, so I was relieved when she was promoted out of my office. But then she needed an admin, and she encouraged me to apply for the job. Told me it was mine if I wanted it, although it still had to be officially opened due to university policy. I decided the extra money would be worth working for her again, so I applied. And didn’t get it, because she decided to hire someone related to a person she wanted to suck up to instead. The person she hired was completely inept, and more than once, my now grandboss asked me to work overtime to re-do what her new admin had screwed up. I got paid for the hours, but I still wish I’d said “if you wanted me to do that job, you should have hired me to do that job.”

      But the silver lining is that I got so fed up, it pushed me to go back to school and graduate so I could get out of that place.

    16. Letters*

      Probably the worst one — that haunts me to this day — was when I was working a paid internship at a major tourist attraction. Interns were bussed between company housing & workplaces. On one of these trips, I was apparently taking too long to get off the bus (I’m short, the stairs were pretty steep) and someone behind me pushed me. I fell and sprained my ankle badly .. and everything went downhill from there.

      I was left to sob on the ground while people walked around me. Eventually I reached a manager on my phone, and they came and picked me up in a golf cart to drop me off at the company clinic, berating me for clumsiness & telling me that I “had better” be at work in the morning “or else.” He left me at the curb of the clinic and drove off — another patient had to help me inside. After I signed in, the clinic forgot I was there (!) until after the doctor left, and basically said “there’s nothing we can do for you, and we’re closing now, so leave.” By that point it had been about 3 hours since I’d fallen. They deigned to wheelchair me out to the curb where — again — they left me there to figure out how to get home.

      With family states away and no other intern owning a car, I had to hobble back to the bus stop unaided, and make it back to company housing on my own. When I called management the next morning to ask if I could be assigned a work position where I could at least sit on a stool, I was told this wasn’t possible, and I was expected to work my normal hours stocking merchandise.

      I called out for three days, and was written up and threatened with being kicked out of the program for missing work. I was told the only way to have the write-up removed was an x-ray proving it was broken — which it wasn’t, not that I could have afforded the medical care if it had been.

      At the time I was a broke college student with very little experience in the working world, and I was utterly devastated and thoroughly demoralized. I didn’t understand how anyone could ever succeed, if medical issues like this were held against them, and looking back I suspect that a lot of the aggression was deliberate. They knew how young and inexperienced all of us interns were, and they knew they’d be able to get away with it without us complaining.

      To this day I wish I’d stood up for myself — not for my own purposes, but to protect the interns that would follow me from treatment like this. Going back to work so soon absolutely damaged me; when I sprained my ankle the second time, the doctor confirmed that the earlier abuse made me more likely to sprain it in the future. While that’s relatively minor, what else are these poor kids being forced to deal with just because they’re afraid?

    17. Lucy Westenra*

      Job at kiosk at mall. Manager spoke iffy English, and what she did speak was heavily accented, and I don’t hear that well. Not to worry; her favorite method of communication was yelling, which is a universal language. She treated me like sh!t and took cash register mistakes out of my paycheck. I didn’t mind; after all, if I wanted the full amount, I should be more careful when I count the money. Also she made me use my personal phone for work, and after a while I felt like I got punched in the gut every time I heard the text alert tone, because it was usually her scolding me for coming up short.

      Fast forward to now: it is illegal to take mistakes out of someone’s paycheck, and I’m not even convinced that I was the one making the mistakes, since my last day she stood over my shoulder screaming while I counted the register, and then she counted it, and she messed up counting the quarters. How many other times had she messed up and knocked it off my paycheck? If I’d known better, I’d’ve read the situation better, told her where to shove it, and gotten a new job someplace better. But I was 16 and thought that all employers were abusive, and that it was just a matter of how much of which kind of abuse you were willing to put up with.

    18. AnonAnalyst*

      Another story about putting up my own money for a work expense. I was a key holder at a small business and somehow my key got lost — to this day, I have no idea what happened to it, but it was just gone from my key ring when I went to open the door one day. Never happened before with any other keys or since…

      This was in a pretty competitive industry and my manager was not sympathetic at all to anything human her employees did, so I completely freaked out. At the time, I was the only one besides the manager that had a key, and she was away at a client event for several days. So basically, no one could get in for 2-3 days without some other intervention. I called the manager to ask her if, by chance, someone else local had a key or if we should call a locksmith. She indicated that we should call a locksmith and just have the lock changed because no one else had a key. I was super apologetic and because I felt guilty, I said I would pay the locksmith and she could reimburse me when she returned.

      Well, in the few days between that conversation and her return to the office, she decided that she should not pay this business expense because it was my fault the key got lost. In the end, she generously offered to reimburse me for half of the cost (I know it was generous, because she made sure to tell me she was being generous by offering to pay for part of the expense). So all in I ended up being out about $100 to replace the lock at my place of business because my key (one of only two in existence, apparently) went missing.

      This, by the way, was also illegal because I was living in California at the time, where employers are required to reimburse employees for all expenses incurred on behalf of the business. Several people told me this, but I was only a year or two out of college and I still felt guilty so I felt like paying for part of it was the right thing to do. I would absolutely push back hard against something like this now.

    19. SharedDriveUser*

      While in college full-time, I worked retail for a national department store chain, assigned to women’s separates. I was the closer, responsible for the change till as well as the department register. 20 minutes after closing, having checked the dressing rooms and put away the last couple of blouses, I’m counting the $400 change drawer when a man grabbed my shoulder from behind. I screamed, rammed him with my elbow and grabbed the scissors. Turned out the guy on the floor behind me, clutching his abdomen, was the store detective, who was “checking for alertness”. He was later terminated; scuttlebutt had it that he was in the habit of grabbing young women from behind and copping a feel or two in the process. I found another job!

    20. Kate*

      Oh gosh. My entire first job. The manager was awful. He yelled and cussed at us (I was 15 and this was a restaurant). He also slept with many of the employees, which is bad enough as it is, but worse because he was in his mid 20s and the girls he slept with were teenagers. At the time, I didn’t realize it was something I should report. The girls were willing and interested, but of course that didnt make it ok. But at 15, I didn’t realize that even if it was “consensual” it really wasn’t because of the ages and power differential. These encounters happened on property, too, and he also gave these girls alcohol and smoked marajuana with them (and also the guys that worked there…I guess this made him “cool” in the eyes of a lot of the employees). I was not interested in any of that, so I was a bit of an outcast in that job (in hindsight, thank goodness!). The worst thing about it is that if the owner had known, he would have fired him. So if I had spoken up, it would have prevented it from happening as long as it did. Eventually, long after I left, someone did report him. He ended up getting fired, and was arrested for having sex with a minor (or someone under the age of consent…not sure what the actual charge was).
      That experience made me realize that I will have to really talk to my kids about what is ok once they are old enough to work. When you’re young, you feel like you have to do whatever your manager says, so I never even questioned his behavior.

  57. Be the Change*

    My little sister is my work HERO. Here are two badass work/school things she did:

    This week, someone in her department didn’t quite follow procedure, and “Wilma” in another department got her nose out of joint (rightly or wrongly doesn’t matter). At my sister’s department meeting, it was her supervisor, my sister, two junior men, and a junior woman. My sister’s supervisor, who is kind of a clod, said, “Just send Wilma some flowers and move on.” My sister said, instantly, clearly, and with no inflection, “If it had been Warren instead of Wilma, you never would have said that.” The room got very quiet for about 10 seconds which must have felt like forever. Later, the junior women who had *not* been in the meeting were talking about how awesome it was, so word got around!

    In college, she was in a chemistry class and the professor handed back an exam where no one had done well. The professor reamed them out, saying how “lazy and stupid” they were (and so on in this vein). My sister, who is not lazy or stupid, got up, stomped out of the room — having to cross right in front of him to do so — slammed the door, and went straight to the dean’s office and said, “This is what the professor said. It was offensive.” The professor had to issue a written apology.

    My sister is now a highly ranked person in her organization making a lot of money, with tons of responsibility. Like I said, my hero. Go forth and be appropriately badass!

    2. T3k*

      God, hate professors like that. I’m just glad I had ones that realized if everyone did poorly, then perhaps it isn’t the students but the test itself and they would make changes accordingly (even had one that would let students debate them over why they answered B over D and if they could prove it, they got the points back).

      1. Emilia Bedelia*

        I had a fabulous professor who had written the textbook that he taught out of.

        The deal was, if we found a mistake in the book, the entire class would get an extra point on the test for that section. His reasoning was, there’s no one more motivated to read a textbook closely than students who are being tested on it- so we caught all the mistakes his editors missed.

      2. Newby*

        I had a professor who was so upset that no one did well on the test and blamed it on poor attendence (the lectures were recorded so attendance was optional). The problem was actually that one of the questions (out of five total questions) was so poorly worked that no one could agree on what it was actually trying to ask.

      1. Victoria, Please*

        Be the Change, your sister is my hero too! I work with faculty, and I don’t think she over-reacted at all. A professor ranting at students about being “stupid and lazy” goes way over all sorts of lines. A lot of professors *think* students are stupid and lazy (and they are for the vast majority completely wrong) but most of them have enough sense not to verbally abuse people.

        Plus, imagine an undergraduate woman with the chutzpah to do what she did. I’m in awe.

        1. JennyFair*

          If an entire class does badly on an exam, the students are not the problem. Blaming the students is piling wrongdoing on top of bad teaching, and she had every reason to complain.

      2. tigerStripes*

        I had a new teacher once who gave a bunch of hard working students a test that we all did terribly on because we had studied what he had discussed in class, and he tested us on something else. He had the grace to know that if all of us did that badly, it was on him. I’d have been furious if he blamed us for that test – I know I had studied and worked to do well on it.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Ha! Your sister rocks!!

      Re the professor–my favorite criminal justice instructor said if one or two of us did poorly on a test, he could assume we didn’t study. But if all of us did, then he could assume that he either didn’t make the material clear to us or didn’t write the test properly. Best instructor ever.

  58. Librarian Ish*

    I just found out the university I’m working at is no longer allowing our pride club to host meetings. It is a religious school but receives federal funding, so they are definitely doing something illegal. I’m a (closeted at work) queer person myself, and I don’t know how to support the club without risking my job. I don’t know what question to ask, I’m just…sigh.

    3. Jen*

      Any chance your uni had a good law program? Or you have friends connected to a law school in your province or state can they connect you with a prof with tenure who is LGBTQ who will fight it? I think you need an already visible aly who is used to and interested in this sort of public/educational thing and willing to back the students for free and publically because they are protected by tenure/thier LLB experience. Otherwise if you’re willing to share your location maybe we can help find a civil liberties group in your area who would help and be sensitive to keeping staff and students at risk from needing to out themselves.

  59. jm*

    My company’s board has once again approved the (dreaded by most) summer work schedule: 7 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. Monday through Thursday for all of June and July….with my 45 minute commute, I’ll have to wake up at 4:15, leave home by 6:00, drop kids off at day camp by 6:45, all to be at work by 7.

    My company thinks the summer schedule helps employees save money on gas (99.9% of us drive to work…but gas is only $2 a gallon here)….and thinks the summer schedule gives employees the chance to work another job on Friday (newsflash – we’re all too tired for that).

    The few people who love the summer schedule are the c-level folks who work super early to super late year-round. For the rest of us, in a 10 hour day, we probably waste at least 4 hours trying to stay awake….productivity definitely plummets.

      1. jm*

        Sadly, yes, it is mandatory. I requested last summer to work a typical 8 hour per day schedule, which would have been 32 hours per week, and then tack on an 8 hour vacation day each week to get 40 hours, but my request was denied….

        1. Angelinha*

          What if you had wanted to work 40 hours each week and not take the vacation day each week? I love when places offer this schedule as an optional perk (though when my company did it, I hated the long days, and decided not to do it the next summer) but requiring it seems awful. Sorry :(

          1. jm*

            Unfortunately, the building completely shuts down on Friday — no one can come in. So it’s 4/10s or find something else. I wish they were more flexible! I could see myself handling it better when I don’t have as many responsibilities in my personal life.

    2. Victoria, Please*

      We have a 4/10 summer schedule too (7 am – 6 pm). I loooaaathe it. I think it torches productivity by 40%. You stop being able to get things done at noon on Thursday instead of noon on Friday, so you lose a full business day. And, people futz from 7-9 and 4-6, so we’re losing another 16 hours a week.

    3. Murphy*

      Ugh, I worked at a place that did that, and I also had a long commute. I had no idea until after I’d accepted the job. (They were similarly strict about working hours not during the summer as well.) It was the worst.

      1. jm*

        I know, right? I’ve been here 5+ years now, but I remember being hired in February with no mention of working 4/10s, and then being shocked in April when the summer schedule was announced.

    4. Aims*

      Unpopular opinion it seems, but I wish I had that schedule in the summer! I am single and child-free which does make a difference, but would absolutely love to work 4/10 and have 3 day weekends throughout the summer months. Unfortunately I work in the unionized public sector and definitely do not have that option.

    5. ancolie*

      The few people who love the summer schedule are the c-level folks who work super early to super late year-round.

      They’re also the most likely to earn enough to have a summer home/cottage they can use for a long weekend every weekend. Also the most likely to either 1- assume everyone has a summer home or 2- just not care that no one else does.

    1. jm*

      2 truths and a lie (whatever it’s called) — good for groups of 15 or fewer people. Everyone goes around telling 2 factual things about themselves, and one, ahem, alternative fact. The group guesses which is the alternative fact.

      1. Rob Lowe can't read*

        I agree – we always do this one at my summer program orientation, and it’s really fun.

        Also +100 for the joke, I’m definitely telling my supervisor that we are rebranding it “Two Truths and an Alternative Fact.”

          1. Emi.*

            To clarify, I don’t think you should arrange your activities to suit my preferences, but I think a lot of people are really tired of low-level political criticism/humor surrounding us all the time. And I do think it’s unprofessional and makes for a bad impression and example.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              I’m going to agree with this. I see the humor in it, but so many of us are so tired of this being everywhere and not being able to escape it, ever.

              1. another academic librarian*

                I’m a librarian. I literally cannot get away from “fake news” talk/jokes/etc. right now. I had a long conversation with a grad student today about research projects and realized afterwards that we had not said anything about “alternative facts,” even as a joke. And it was a welcome break.

  61. Death Rides a Pale Volvo*

    I am a finalist for a media relations position in Oregon! I go out and do my in-person interview next week! I’M SO EXCITED I COULD BURST…INTO SHOW TUNES!

    I’ve got to go by myself, though, without the husband traveling with me. I’m a nervous traveler/driver anyway so this has been fun dealing with the stress dreams. (Current favorite: I get hopelessly lost–in the airport. Oh, and I’m also trying to find my cats.)

    Anyone have any tips for living in the Portland, Oregon area? Any non-profit/college/education IT job tips for Husband? Again, AAAAAAH!

    (starts singing “Cabaret” off-key)

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I have nothing to say except, as a hiker, beer nerd, enthusiastic cook/eater, tea drinker, and kayaker, Portland is one of the few cities I could live in outside of Colorado and be happy.

      Go to Ox Restaurant when you’re in Portland – amazing Argentinian-influenced live fire cooking, everything grilled or roasted over a wood fire.

    2. Actuarial Octagon*

      Lifelong Oregonian here. Congrats on the interview. Our airport is close to downtown with a tram connection so it makes for a fairly easy trip. As TNMBOCIS said, there are tons of outdoor things to do around the metro area plus lots of good eating and drinking.

      I’m not sure where you’re originally from but rental prices continue to increase here, inventory is low, and in many cases wages haven’t caught up so you’d be smart to do some research on that front before accepting an offer.

      Best of luck!

    3. Anons-y*

      Do you have any idea whereabouts the job is located? Housing is rough right now – high prices and low inventory. But if it’s possible to live in the outskirts our suburbs aren’t that bad and are often closer to the fun outdoors things.

      We are pretty polite drivers, sometimes to the point of causing more problems with people waiting for each other at stop lights and always slowing down to let someone in their lane. If someone lets you in, you gotta wave or they’re gonna think you’re an asshole/not from here. We hate california and washington license plates.

      We don’t pump our own gas. You’ll think it’s ridiculous until it’s pouring down rain and 38 degrees and then you’ll be so grateful to just roll down your window a couple inches to hand over your card.

      The food in Portland is phen-om-enal. We have everything, and you can find it all for cheap and good or expensive and good.

      We have income tax instead of sales tax, so if you’re not used to that just keep it in mind when calculating your take-home pay.

      1. Death Rides a Pale Volvo*

        The job is actually in McMinnville, which is outside of the city. Currently I live in remote, rural New England.

        Can you explain more about the income tax/sales tax thing?

        1. Life after Recruiting*

          I grew up 15 min away from McMinnville and it’s the most beautiful place ever. Farmland, wineries, small town feeling. It’s heavenly. Now I am 2 hours south but I still go up there every year.
          We don’t pay sales tax on items we purchase, instead we pay a state income tax on our salaries. You claim the same number of deductions that you would claim for your federal taxes. If you over pay, you will also get refunds on it.

    4. Franzia Spritzer*

      …also (when you see it you’ll know) it’s pronounced KOOCH, not couch like a sofa.

      I miss Portland so much, I went to school there after growing up in Seattle. It’s most definitely the land of my people.

    5. tigerStripes*

      It does rain and get overcast a LOT, which can be tough for some people. The area is beautiful though – all that rain makes for a pretty green environment.

  62. JK*

    I just had to turn down a job that I thought I would really like because the salary was ridiculously low. The posting had included a huge range ($40,000 between highest/lowest) and since I had a lot more experience than their minimum, and since the job has historically been filled by people with many years experience, I made the (incorrect) assumption that the starting salary would reflect that.

    The only mention of salary in the interview came at the end, when the main interviewer outlined the hiring process. She noted that she would have to work out the salary with HR based on the individual candidates experience, etc. In retrospect, I really should have pushed for more details on salary, but the whole interview was unusual and had me off-kilter a bit.

    In the end, I was offered the job at a salary of just $5,000 from the bottom of the range. It was about what I was making 15 years ago, when I had 2 years experience. When I told her what I currently make (which was still below the median of their range) she indicated that there was no way they could even match my current salary.

    What a waste of time, for all of us. The interview required a presentation, which took up a huge amount of my free time. Plus I feel bad that they spent a month contacting my references and working out an offer when we could have saved a lot of time by just telling me the salary up front. Why won’t employers just state the salary? So frustrating.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      Yeesh. Seems like the first problem is their $40K pay band, if they’re insisting on hiring only someone who can start near the bottom of the band.

    4. Whats In A Name*

      Yikes! Its baffling to me when places post salary ranges they can’t even get close to. I mean I could understand if range posted was 50,000 – 90,000 and you were asking for $100,000…but if asking for $70,000 it seems like more open conversation would have been warranted.

      Usually, when I’ve been interviewer or interviewee we’ve been fairly closely aligned on salary especially when more than one interview (or a presentation!) was involved.

    5. krysb*

      It just irks the hell out of me that employers prefer good experience and skills (and as much as possible), but are unwilling to pay for experience and skill.

  63. Sarah*

    How can I get my team to actually evaluate themselves on their self-evaluations? They get their specific goals and projects and when their six month evaluation is due, I ask them to evaluate their performance in relation to their goals and just overall. I even give them examples. And I still get back:
    “I built chocolate teapots.
    I built white chocolate teapots.
    I placed the teapots in boxes.”

    1. SophieChotek*

      Not sure you have time for this and might seem a little school-isn. Can you send the evals back? Point out the examples again? It is worth your time to do that?

    2. Sibley*

      I’m one of the people who has to do self-evals. You haven’t trained them enough, both as a group and individually. If you want really good self-evals, it’s going to take a ton of time on your part to get there. also keep in mind that some people are going to hold themselves to a higher standard than you do – and it’ll show. I’ve had my manager specifically tell me the minimum rating I could give myself was the higher rating that I never gave myself.

      1. Sarah*

        Most of them won’t give themselves any rating though. Say they have a goal of “Produce 27 teapots with a Quality Control rating of 95% or higher.” When the question asks if they met this goal, they’ll respond “I built teapots.”

    3. Feathers McGraw*

      Can you improve your evaluation form? Ours asks you to list what skills you used or developed to meet each objective, what helped and what didn’t. If you just listed what you did it’d be incomplete.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Honestly, I don’t see a lot of point to self-evaluations. I would find it reasonable if they did not see it either. I could think I am the best worker in the universe, but if the boss does not think so then whatever I think is irrelevant.

      As far as setting goals, what are their choices in goals? I want to work up to placing ten teapots in boxes each day? Some jobs are goal-less, you do it then you go home. Repeat the process tomorrow. I have often felt that it is the boss who has the big picture so it is up to the boss to say what the goals are.

      My guess would be that the questions are meaningless to them. This could be because:

      They feel their answers are not heard.
      They see the same questions at each eval and feel they are answering the same questions that they have already answered.
      The eval does not relate to their job. Their job is mindless repetition or other description and does not lend itself well to the concept of goal setting/self-evaluating.
      They feel the questions are simplistic and do not allow for deeper discussion of actual problems.
      They feel that the questions telegraph that management has no idea what they do for the business.

      I worked at a place for years and every year I wrote the same exact answer to each question. No one noticed. And I did it for years.

      1. tigerStripes*

        I hate doing self-evaluations, but I try to think of them as ways to promote myself and mention things that I did that were good, including things that maybe my supervisor might not have thought of checking.

  64. Anon-Me!*

    How to background investigations for government clearance work? I have a former employee who applied for a job that required one and I got the form sent to me to verify his employment here. Everything is false – dates of employment, supervisor, title, did he leave voluntarily. I’m sending this over to our legal team because I don’t want to say something libelous. I have to imagine that this would disqualify him for a clearance, but I wonder will it come back to me. He is a head case and I don’t want him threatening me with lawsuits again. Had enough of that after we terminated him.

    2. NK*

      I am almost positive that the government does not reveal why they denied a clearance. It would be a security issue. Also, this information is all factual and documented. I don’t think you need to give color commentary, just correcting the information he provided will be plenty. And there’s no basis for a lawsuit, though I certainly understand that the threat of a lawsuit – regardless of the merits – is stressful enough.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        They generally won’t tell you why in specific reasons, but they will be things like “financial concerns” or “potential loyalties to foreign countries” or “personal conduct” and you can infer.

    3. Katie the Fed*

      It depends on the level of clearance and who is doing the investigation.

      Usually, even for top secret clearances, the subject of the clearance invesigation can request copies of the records. Investigators tell you that when you give them an interview on someone’s behalf – they show you ID and let you know that the person can request copies of all interview notes.

      You should be honest. You have no idea if it will disqualify him for a clearance (you’d be amazed at some of the stuff that gets through). What you say is “according to my recollection/records, his dates of employment were XXX, his title was XXX, and he left because of XXX.”

      They know people will make mistakes. They’re not going to take the testimony of one person and throw out the clearance on that – they’ll verify through many interviews and other means.

  65. LizB*

    My organization is implementing some VERY strict rules on what kinds of food can be provided for meetings. Some of them are totally reasonable (always have fruit and/or veggies and water available), others are a little more out there (no cookies or chips at all, and all baked goods must be whole grain, no exceptions). I totally understand why these are being rolled out, given the health-related nature of the organization, but I’m a little sad that I can’t, say, bring in donuts for my team once in a blue moon when they’ve had a rough week. Realistically, I don’t think most people in my department would care if I broke the rules occasionally, but our higher-ups have a habit of randomly wandering through our building and they would definitely care. I’m thinking my team may be having more off-site lunch meetings in the future, and some of them may be located in pizza places…

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      This is one of those situations where I want to grab the decision-maker, and go “WAS THIS REALLY THE HILL YOU DECIDED TO DIE ON? SERIOUSLY?”

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        +1. Even the healthiest diets have some room to go flat-out nuts. What if it’s a birthday? Are you really expected to celebrate with whole-grain cupcakes?!

        1. LizB*

          Yeah, I love my organization, but our healthy eating recommendations include some really cool, holistic-health-minded things and some REALLY backwards things. It’s weird. I sat through the mandatory presentation about them feeling super uncomfortable about how weird some of the suggestions were, and then was even more uncomfortable when the person presenting starting waxing poetic about how much her life changed when she cut out gluten and dairy and we should all totally do the same! Um, no. You do you, but my diet is fine for me without eliminating major categories of foods.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            Some people get really evangelistic and weird about their diets. It’s incredibly frustrating.

          2. TL -*

            If it makes you feel better, there’s a few studies coming showing that gluten-free diets are less healthy than gluten-containing diets.

            (says the woman with the wheat allergy eating gluten-free soy sauce, sigh.) I haven’t read the studies but I do think the number that are coming out is encouraging and, honestly, not surprising.

            1. AcademiaNut*

              My impression of those studies I’ve seen is that it’s not necessarily that gluten is intrinsically healthy, it’s that if you swap in gluten-free versions for your pasta, bread, cakes, cookies, pizza, burgers, etc. it will be less healthy than the original version, if you aren’t actually sensitive to gluten. The gluten free flours they use tend to have higher glycemic indices than the wheat flour they are replacing, for example.

    3. Graciosa*

      I would absolutely be having more off site meetings.

      Whether or not I was asked, I might find a polite way to comment about the budgetary impact of the policy that so strictly controlled food choices that it required off site events to allow adults to choose their own food. ;-)

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Did they limit what people can have in their offices? Because what if you had a box of donuts in your office, and when your team members stop by you offer them one? And on that day, somehow, all your team members decide to pop into your office in the morning to say good morning…. ;)

      1. LizB*

        Apparently the person who sent out the company-wide email has been bombarded with what-if questions like this* and will be sending a clarifying email next week, so at the moment it’s unclear. I’m hoping it shakes out to be something like “If it’s bought on the company dime, it has to meet the standard, if not then we just strongly encourage it to meet the standard.” I absolutely see the value of providing healthy snacks, but there’s a time and a place for also providing junk!

        *Apparently they are super surprised that they’re getting so many questions. I suspect they didn’t think through the implications of telling 2000 grown-ass adults that they’re not allowed to bring cookies to the office anymore. I don’t think that’s what they were trying to communicate, but that’s what it came off as.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          HAH! I love it! This is what happens when you try to “parent” intelligent, grown-ass adults!

          And for the record, I’m all for more healthy food at work, and in fact I’ve been having trouble limiting myself recently as I did successfully for a few years prior, so this kind of change would also benefit me. But I realize that it’s my responsibility to control myself, and I wouldn’t want to limit my coworkers’ enjoyment of potlucks or project meetings by telling or even asking them to change what THEY can eat. And our company does generally provide healthy snacks for company-wide meetings.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            My doughnut rule is that I don’t eat one unless it’s the cinnamon-sugar cake doughnut, because those are my favorite. It keeps me from nomming mindlessly when they’re brought in and once people find out I like those, they usually have one in the box. I’m okay unless they get more than one.

        2. JustaTech*

          “But this is a whole-wheat vegan chocolate cake!” (I had a coworker who would occasionally make this when she was on a super-restrictive diet and it was *amazing*.)
          Nothing brings out the grump and the boundary stretching like rules about food.

    5. Delta Delta*

      What if you gave them something else to show appreciation? Everybody gets a gold star or a fancier pen than they usually use (you could buy my love with a purple Pilot pen – not kidding) or something like that? Then it’s not food-based and it’s fun.

      1. LizB*

        I can and will do that as well! Nice pens are a great idea. The ones the office buys are fine, but not fabulous.

  66. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

    So my wife’s benefits through her school district kicked in. $529 a month for the whole family, medical, dental, vision. This replaces my plan, which was $1150 a month for medical and dental. So basically, we just got a $6000/year raise.

    brb, gonna go make it rain like a rap star with a stack of Benjamins

    2. jm*

      Yes! Good for y’all! This is one of the main reasons I will stick with my school system job — our rate is $325 per month for health and dental for the whole family! It would only be $250 per month if my husband worked here too.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        That’s amazing. Public employee health plans are phenomenal. When I was at EPA, I had a minor surgery and it ended up barely costing me anything – under a grand.

  67. Anonycat*

    So work is tense this morning, and it’s supposed to be a fun day (baby shower planned for one of the managers; I worked with 3 others to put this whole thing on because on top of my other managerial duties I love party planning! #raforlife). Here’s what’s happening.

    The Sales team is discussing the “off duty cop” and kid video from the other day. MY personal opinion is that I don’t think a gun should have been brought into it, but that’s just me. The Sales team (~15 people) is mostly women or MOC, with 2 white guys. This is important because the person who brought it up is one of the white guys (I’ll call him WG for clarity).

    “So a punk kid doesn’t deserve to be punished? If someone was damaging your property wouldn’t you want to defend it and punish the kid?” – WG

    “I’m just sick of people drawing conclusions! They’ve been doing that so much recently!” – WG

    “Millennials have never struggled a day in their lives! They need to get to work and not care about being so PC!” -WG

    And etc.

    So WG believes the cop is in the right, but the women and MOC think the cop is wrong. Because he is an argumentative/pushy guy, this is causing a loud discussion that is disruptive and quite frankly I am upset about it. But I also don’t want to cause problems at work by standing up and asking them to all drop it (not because I don’t care, but because I can’t get my work done nor do I feel I could go to WG if I have a question now). I am younger (one of those hated millennials!) and female so WG already doesn’t really respect me, and WG is a loud talker which would draw the rest of Sales into it if I asked him privately to keep it down/not talk about it at the office. We are on an equal level, just in different departments that happen to now sit by each other (long story).

    I know I need to go to his Director and ask him to handle it, but his Director isn’t in right now. Neither is mine (family funeral). So it’s up to me until Director shows up today. I really just want to rant more than handle it myself, because any form of handling it will invite him to be openly unhappy with me (not the right word exactly, but there’d be no retaliation aside from snide comments/making fun of me for being ~sensitive~ because I’m a millennial).

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Don’t diss all white guys. I’m one, and I think your coworker is a bigoted jerk.

      1. Collie*

        I don’t see any dissing of white guys here. There’s a context of privilege that is important to the story here, which is why I think Anonycat mentioned it.

        2. LCL*

          Yeah, but there’s also a context of overreaction, which is why WG keeps harping on it. Adult overstepped by putting his hands on the kid, surrounding kids overstepped by mobbing WG, ‘Protesters’ overstepped by going to the neighborhood and breaking windows and spraying graffiti.

          1. Collie*

            I think we’re getting off-topic as to what Anonycat is having an issue with. It sounds like s/he is mainly concerned about the disruption of work, not the content of the disruption (though I’d argue it’s not appropriate talk for most workplaces, anyway). Let’s refocus.

            1. LCL*

              The reason Anonycat is having an issue is because WG keeps harping on it. It is instructive and useful whenever a coworker keeps harping on something to figure out what is going on. And then, if it is distracting in the workplace, to agree not to talk politics.

              1. Observer*

                And what’s going on is that he’s a bigoted jerk who doesn’t respect anyone but himself, if sounds like.

        3. Observer*

          Except I don’t really think it’s about privilege. This guy sounds like an exceptional jerk. It’s not so much his opinion on the incident, or even that he insisted on bringing it in to work, but all of the other bashing.

    2. paul*

      you can think a kid deserved to get in trouble and not be remotely OK with bringing a gun into it.

      I’ve got 0 qualms about using violence to protect myself or my family but the kid was walking on the damn grass, not trying to fight him

    4. Anonycat*

      I mentioned in passing to the Director that it’s difficult to finish these tasks (it’s schedules week for the next month, which means I’m doing all of my operational tasks and cannot be disrupted by unnecessary things until after lunch/2pm) when people are having shouting matches (and personally it’s tough for me because I come from a home where yelling/borderline verbal abuse was an everyday thing).

      Things have since quieted down. I think the reminder from the Sales Director that it’s the end of the month and people weren’t hitting their quotas but somehow had time to talk politics was enough to refocus the group back to their task for now.

  68. Ahead of Myself*

    Back in August I applied for a job I wasn’t super excited about (dealing with teacups for children instead of teacups for teens or adults) because I wanted to get out of my current position and felt there was no harm in applying and at least learning more about the job because the aspects of my current job where I deal with teacups for children isn’t terrible, I just don’t like it as much as teacups for teens/adults. I never heard anything. Until recently.

    Apparently they’re doing another round of hiring, so I went in for an interview this week and I felt it went really well. I’ve been on several interviews at similar organizations the last couple of years and haven’t felt that, culturally, I’ve been as good at fit and vice versa in any of those as I did in this one. The job may be at any one of more than two dozen locations, so the culture will vary some (as will the job duties and the % of time I get to spend working on teacups for teens/adults) and the location may or may not be public transit accessible (so I may have to buy a car, which I want to do anyway but…a new car in a bad part of town sounds less than great to me, especially when there’s a very specific car I’ve wanted since I was ten…but I digress). BUT — I’d be out of my current situation which would not only be great for my mental health but also put me better in line with what I want to be doing, I’d be eligible for a loan forgiveness program that would really help me out, I’d probably get to see daylight during the day (windows? What are those?), the pay would be better, the benefits would be significantly better, and I think overall I’d be happier.

    I’m trying hard to talk myself into taking this if it’s offered but I’m concerned about a longer/potentially more expensive commute and not being really super jazzed about the job itself (I’ll probably like it, but it will be challenging in ways I’m not interested in growing right now and I won’t love it). I’m hoping it’ll take some time to process and perhaps a second round of interviews because I have something else in the works that, while the organizational fit might not be as good, I think I’d enjoy the duties of the job more. With any luck, if I get offers at all, they’ll be around the same time so I can weigh them against each other.

    Urgh.

    So that was really long and convoluted, but it felt better to write it out. Not necessarily looking for advice, but I’ll take it if you have it (with the understanding that I’m getting way ahead of myself…).

    1. animaniactoo*

      My only advice here is that sometimes you do what will work best for your life rather than your career – and as long as you don’t hate the job, and can maybe add in some extra self-care here and there as a balance, then it’s fine to prioritize what works for your life. It also doesn’t have to be an end-of-the-road decision. It can be a “this is a next two years decision that gets me more experience, and maybe makes me more valuable for the kind of position that I really want”.

      I started out in life intending to teach secondary ed math. I’m a graphic artist/creative manager. This is the path that my life took me, step by step, and I was interested *enough* to stay with it. While I would probably flourish in an IT/organizational role, this was interesting enough to stick with as I developed – and interestingly, the IT/organizational aspects of me have made me more valuable to my company and my team over time. Note: I’m still nowhere near my original life goal, and I do think about finding my way back to it from time to time. But in the meantime, I have a job I *do* enjoy most of the time, and outside life responsibilities and joys – things I have managed to be able to do – that continue to make staying where I am worthwhile. If that were not true, I’d have a lot more impetus to go back and pursue my original path.

      1. Ahead of Myself*

        Thanks. I think I get this on intellectual level, and it’s the framework I’ve been working with the last few days to try to at least prepare myself for talking myself into it, but my emotional level isn’t there yet. It’s helpful to hear that others have done this/are doing it “successfully” (however you define that), though. So thank you.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Yw, and fwiw, I forgot to say that some of the stuff that would make me a good teacher is stuff that is valuable and applied here in my ability to distill stuff for my co-workers and say “do this, here’s why” in relatively simple terms. I can overcomplicate some things when I’m exploring an idea, but for the pass-off – I’m the go to, and it’s those skills that are involved in it.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It’s not the last job on earth. Hold on to that thought.
      Put yourself in places where you have reason to believe that you will have at least SOME success.
      We spend the bulk of our waking hours at our jobs. It’s a basic human need to make a contribution. Looking at this job do you see where you would make a contribution, make a difference? Remember, this is a need like water and food is a need. We need to know that what we do matters. And here is the tough part, will it matter to YOU?

      As far as the car, I kind of chuckled. I had one brand new car once. And then it got that first scratch…. I drove it until it died 9 years later and I have never bought another new car. Currently, I have had older vehicles. You know what? People pretty much leave older vehicles alone. Park it where it appears to be safest for you and the vehicle, lock it up and it will probably be okay.

      Meanwhile, collect up more facts about this job. Sometimes indecision can be a lack of facts. It sounds like it has potential. Sometimes I can tough out an iffy job if I set personal goals and stick to my personal goal list like glue.

      1. Ahead of Myself*

        All good points. I have to admit, it’ll be my first car, so I’m being totally irrational about it and I know it. Wah.

        I have a tendency to look for reasons why not, I think because I’ve had such a bad experience with my current job that I’m afraid of getting into the same situation — why leave a bad situation for a worse one? Intellectually, I know better. But my emotional side is being a stubborn jerk about it. Sigh.

        I know I could do the job well. I just don’t know that I have the energy to work with actual infants/toddlers/children all day. I like kids, but my few interactions with them these days tend to be with them, screaming, in a restaurant where I just want to eat in quiet. I’m being unfair to kids, though, and I know that.

        I’m also a chronic self-sabotager in interviews, so it’s probably some deep issue I’ll just have to work out. Sigh, again.

        Thanks, though. This is helpful stuff to think about.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Not as creepy as showing up on his front stoop wearing no pants, but damned close.

    3. EddieSherbert*

      Terrifying. Like, I’d have the opposite reaction and they’d be on a “no calls/ do not hire forever” list.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      The applicant purchased attention. That is all that happened here. He paid for items that caused attention to be drawn to him. I can buy things that make me look impressive, too, that does not make me actually impressive, though.

      1. Looey*

        Well, yeah of course it got him attention! That’s what it was designed to do! The question is whether you would give it good attention and potentially hire them or attention where you packed bear mace in your pocket to ward off a creepy stalker.

  70. I need a break*

    I have had a rough year and I am thinking of taking some time off work. By the time I’d be leaving I will have been with the same company for 3 years. The plan would be to go to France for a month and study French and maybe spend some time with a sick family member so I feel like I would be able to explain to future employers what I was doing after quitting my job. I would probably be off work for two months before starting to look for something new. I know that quitting without having anything lined up is a bad idea in general but in my current job my notice period is two months so in a way I imagine that I would be more attractive to employers because I can start straight away. I live in London and I think that the job market is quite good (I am a data analyst) at the moment. I could probably afford to be unemployed for 6 months. Not sure if I have any specific questions but I would really love to hear from people who have been in a similar situation.

    1. Chickaletta*

      Have fun!

      I quit a job once and went to Australia for a month. Nothing lined up. When I got back I decided to make a career change, so I took a few classes from the community college. Incredibly, my former employer called me up and offered me a contract position which got me through for another year.

      A couple months gap in unemployment isn’t going to raise many flags so you might find you don’t even need to explain anything to future employers. Also, the silver lining about not being employed while job searching is that you can dedicate all your time towards finding a job, go in for interviews at any time, and not have to deal with any of that awkwardness asking for time off in the middle of the day for an interview.

    2. Bex*

      Could you do some contract/consulting work while you’re in France? Or volunteer or do pro bono work for an NGO? That way there wouldn’t be as much of a gap.

    3. Freya UK*

      Go! Live your life and enjoy yourself! I’ve taken time off (about four months) between both of my last jobs, and it’s never taken me more than a couple of months to find something new when I start looking again.

      I take time off because I work to live, so I save up my little ‘if I get fired or have to tell them where to stick it’ fund while I’m working, so that I am free to do so.

      It’s a good litmus test for an employer too – if they don’t like that I took time out ‘because I wanted to and was able to’ then it’s not going to be the right environment for me.

      1. I need a break*

        Thank you all for replying. I am not sure about volunteering in France but I would be able to spend a lot of time learning more about programming so that would be good. I have been putting money aside every month exactly for this kind of situation but I guess it is just a bit scary. If I build up the courage to go through with it then I will come back and update you all.

  71. JustaTech*

    Does anyone have any advice for explaining to your spouse or friends that while hiring works one way in their industry (tech) it is not the way hiring works for everyone else? Like, I’ve never heard of an industry outside of computers where you have something like a “coding challenge” in the interview. And not every industry head-hunts. Or hires in weeks rather than months.
    They all genuinely care, but they just don’t get the difference and sometimes they say things that imply that it’s *me* that’s the problem. It’s not my fault that it takes the city months to get back to you about an application!

    1. SophieChotek*

      Your explanation makes sense to me!=)
      I don’t know…get them to read this blog and all the questions about “when will I hear back…?”

    2. KR*

      I understand it. My husband had been in the military and aside from a fast food gig has never had a job. Sometimes he’ll make outdated job search suggestions like calling the hiring manager directly or walking in there and shaking their hand or whatever and I’m like….. Please. Stop.

    3. Emilia Bedelia*

      Oh my goodness, I completely understand the “tech hiring bubble”. The questions I got from my computer science friends when I was interviewing were just silly. “What’s a behavioral question?” “No one has ever asked me a STAR question in an interview, I don’t believe people actually use those” “What kind of test did you have to take in your interviews for your job?” “Wait, you actually interviewed with the person you’d be working for?”

      Eventually I just stopped talking to the less understanding people about job searching, or just reply with something like “Wow, the hiring processes are SOOO different! It’s like they DON’T EVEN TRANSLATE AT ALL! So weird”.

      1. Tau*

        Aaand now I’m worried about this as a person who’ll be job-hunting soon in a tech field and has been using AAM as my basis for how the hiring process tends to work. I mean, I guessed that there would be more technical skills tests and more focus on those, but if it’s really THAT different I’m worried I’ll have come away with a really wrong impression from this site… it’s already been hard enough to try and calculate the regional/cultural variation because Germany. :(

        1. JustaTech*

          I don’t know about all tech companies, but the ones I have heard about directly (Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook, Google) if you’re interviewing for a job where you will write code you will almost 100% be asked to write code in the interview (usually on a whiteboard) so they can see your understanding/skill/thought process.
          I think the confusion is that this kind of skill testing isn’t possible in all fields. Like, you can’t ask me to process blood in the middle of an interview; there are too many safety regulations. Or whatever your skill are, they aren’t something you can show a complete example of in an hour.

          The other stuff, like resumes and culture fit and the rest are pretty much the same.

          What get frustrating is that where I live there are tons of tech jobs so you never have to hunt for an open position the same way you might in other fields (and the pay, ye gods the pay!).

        2. Jules the First*

          You will be fine – promise! It will be faster and more informal than most of what is described here, but the principles are the same. Going from what’s described here to tech will be fine, going from tech to non-tech would be confusing.

          1. Windchime*

            Yeah, I hope I never have to do a non-tech interview again. I wouldn’t even know how to begin to buy an interview suit. It sounds so horribly constrictive and uncomfortable.

    4. AnonAcademic*

      I’m an academic married to a tech person so we have lots of fun conversations about the insane practices in our respective fields. Occasionally I have to remind him that the norms in my field are totally different. I just say “Actually unlike tech, in academia there are no recruiters/interviews are an all day affair for many positions/hiring and grant cycles often take a full year/salary ranges are set by the federal funding agency/tenured professors can be jerks with no consequence.” If he doesn’t “get” it and wants me to sicc HR on some senior tenured professor who made an off color joke in the elevator (or whatever) I just remind him there are different norms and I have my own survival strategies in my field just like he does in his.

      1. Feathers McGraw*

        I’m in writing/editing/communications and my husband is self-employed in the music industry (stage crew and road crew). We are completely bemused by each other’s work field norms. I can’t imagine being unable to leave work because it’s my job to drive everyone else home. He shudders at the thought of having to have project meetings or catch-ups with a line manager.

  72. emma2*

    In the context of informational interviews (with other alums), should I refer to older alums as Mr./Ms. as opposed to their first name? (I am in my twenties.) Some context: Most alums I end up informational interviewing with are my age group and I just call them by their first name. I accidentally did this in an e-mail I sent to another alum, not realizing how old she was until after the fact. Was I rude?

    1. Amber T*

      I’d say calling them by their first name is fine regardless of their age, unless they’re specifically introduced to you as Mr./Ms.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I am in my mid-50s. I’d expect you to use my first name. If you didn’t I would tell you to use my first name. I think you are probably okay here.

  73. Recco*

    We had a lot of layoffs at my company this week and I discovered the thelayoff.com site. It helped me feel like I was in the loop and slightly more prepared for what was to come. There’s definitely a lot of rumors and some nonsense to read through, but if your company is going thro this, and you’d like be aware about what coworkers are saying, then it might be worth a look. I work for a large company, and it’s probably limited to bigger places, but ppl were able to pinpoint our layoff date a week or so in advance, and share info on severance package ect.

      1. Recco*

        Yeah I think it’s one of those people only come across it if you’re in that unfortunate situation. It did provide an odd sense of comfort for me this week. Best of luck if you’re going through the same!

  74. Whats In A Name*

    I have been debating whether or not to do an open thread for months about my co-worker, but seriously I can’t take it anymore. I need to vent and get some advice on how to manage the relationship I have to have with her at work.

    She is teapot trainer. I am teacup trainer within the same department. In addition, I am also a program administrator, so I have slightly more responsibility aligning training programs with company objectives. We are both independent contractors so I have no management authority over her whatsoever.

    She’s a knowledgeable teapot trainer and a good presenter. Because I am a teacup trainer we are often asked to co-present on how teapots and teacups work together.

    When someone asks about teacups in these presentations she will often answer before I can – with the wrong answer. Then I have to correct her in front of 25+ people without making it sound like I am correcting her.

    She once told a very large group that the reason we do the simplest version of teapot testing is because (and I quote) “it’s cheap and dirty, not because it’s accurate” Meanwhile we are supposed to be the advocates of this testing, because it’s an extension and was vetted by the department we work in. Besides the fact that cheapest does not equal cheap (which she does now know).

    In addition to this, she is just an awful to work with. Her personality makes conversation awkward (even non-work related), she has a huge ego and often “forgets” things and duplicates duties that are assigned to others. It may seems like no big deal but ends up being a logistical nightmare…

    I asked if a matrix of duties would help in the folder we store on the shared drive for this long project (Oct-June). She said yes and I created one…this was about 6 months ago – I found out last week that she doesn’t “remember” how to get to the shared drive. I found out because it happened again and I asked her if she referred to the matrix and she was like “oh yea, I don’t remember how to get to that”. I asked her why she didn’t ask me as she said “I didn’t think to.”

    The department head excuses her behavior to youth – saying she’ll learn professional norms over time. She is 30 & had been here almost 2 years. This is her 4th or 5th professional job. I am going bonkers but really can’t do much about it, I need some advice here.

    In addition to the fact that she doesn’t really “get” what I do so she is often like “how are you so busy, what do you even do?” ARGH!!!!

    Thanks for letting me vent. Anyadvice on how to handle her, especially int he public forums where she is wrong but I don’t want to sound like a tyrant, would be great!

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I would be a little more assertive about correcting her. “Actually, Wakeenda, that’s not an accurate characterization. The teacup department vetted this testing procedure and we advocated for it because it returns accurate results, not just because it’s cheap and dirty.”

      I think you can also give her some pushback in private. “Wakeenda, I’ve noticed that when we’re presenting, you often answer questions about teacups before I can. I really need you to let me answer those, because I’ve got context and information about teacups you don’t.”

      1. Whats In A Name*

        You know, when based in facts, the public ‘correction’ could work and not make me look like I am actually flabbergasted (which I am).

        I also like the idea of a private conversation – I can do that in the context of the job. Sometimes I think I am at the point where I just see red with her and it’s clouding my ability to manage my reactions so I just walk away because I am afraid I will explode and, well, that’s not cool either.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Honestly, she sounds like she could use a coworker getting constructively angry at her and setting some hard boundaries.

          1. AnonAcademic*

            Yeah, it sounds like OP is trying to treat an unreasonable person with the same courtesy and professionalism as a reasonable person. I too have fallen into this trap. I thought it was more professional to never act frustrated and discuss conflicts in a neutral, problem solving manner. I have since realized that suppressing my justifiable anger was perceived as a lack of assertiveness or urgency by the person I was having conflicts with. I was using phrases like “what can we do to fix this and make sure it doesn’t happen again” when I should have been saying “this is unacceptable, cannot happen again, and will require me to escalate the issue to the Big Boss if it continues to occur.”

            1. Whats In A Name*

              Yes! This is very much me. I am going to try the other and see how it works; I am hoping that you and TNMBOIS are correct and this nips the behavior.

  75. The work fairy*

    How do you deal with colleagues who take all credit for your work?
    I have one colleague Anna who started in the company less than a year ago. She works in a different department. I am fairly knowledgeable about our company, products, regulation, because I have worked hard to acquire this knowledge. Now very often, when Anna has a question/new situation/new project, she first comes to me (private email convo or phone call), asks for info and background, which I share with her, and she then goes on as if she had done the legwork herself. This is annoying because she gets praises for her “good work”, “attention to detail” etc, when really if it weren’t for me she would not have brought up these things. I am not the only person she is doing that to. Am I being too sensitive about this? Am I supposed to tell her to do her own research?

    1. Graciosa*

      In Anna’s case, yes.

      The professional way to do this is something like, “You probably want to check with someone in Finance about that,” or “Perhaps you want to review our product manuals for more information.”

      Note the difference between “Chris Jones in Finance” and “Finance.” You are acknowledging her question, but need to return to your own work rather than saving Anna from doing her own.

      1. The work fairy*

        Thanks! There is always something in the back of my mind telling me to “share the knowledge”, and that by not giving her all the info possible I would be a jerk.
        the downside of being a people-pleaser is that i definitely tend to be used as a doormat.
        Plus I feel like we are all saving time at the moment, and that if it were to come to the CEO about me not sharing info and therefore wasting time, I would get blamed somehow.
        (my workplace is VERY disorganized and toxic)

        1. Graciosa*

          The disorganized and toxic nature of your work place is more worrying than you’re original question!

          But if someone challenges you on this, I would expect you to look puzzled, and respond that you did help her out – you let her know where to find the information she needed.

          1. The work fairy*

            I think the issues I have witnessed at my workplace could provide content for this blog for 2 weeks ;) and being rational is not our CEO’s strong suit.
            Looking puzzled and giving out explanation would get me absolutely nowhere, I have in the past been personally blamed for doing exactly what he asked me to, with email proving his orders, etc.
            Which makes dealing with Anna so much more difficult, because if I do anything else than what I am doing right now, I risk being labelled as “not a team player”, or even worse, being demoted to answer to her in the future? It is not fair because I put a lot of time and energy in being knowledgeable, and right now it is just serving someone else’s advancement.

            1. Lison*

              Is there anyway you can cc in your manager to your replies to her (even if she calls say you will give the answer by email so it’s there for future reference? It makes it clear how much of her research was actually provided by you. The reason for ccing in others could be needing your boss to see how much time you are spending on her research or a “hey guys I was asked this question and I thought everyone should be in the loop in case they were also likely to need the information” email to everyone who might need the information. Another idea might be I’m a go-go person where I work but everyone I help credits me with helping them so I’m not doing this because I’m annoyed with anyone but I’ve set up a ‘useful information’ folder on the common drive and any queries anyone in the department answers we put a copy of the answer into it so it is a first Base resource for everyone into the future to check. It means I’m not hoarding information I have but it is clear who actually had the knowledge or did the original research.
              The situation sucks for you right now but in my experience these vampires only get so far (unfortunately it can be pretty high up)

              1. Feathers McGraw*

                Agreeing to help then cc’ing the manager would come off as incredibly passive aggressive and underhand.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          In my warped thinking I would be looking for ways to get Anna to be the microphone for dealing with work issues. If she is so willing to talk about things as if it’s her idea, why not see if she can get some ideas out there that would make your workplace better?

          These people who like getting credit for things sometimes can be moved toward becoming change makers.

    2. Taylor Swift*

      Hmm. But she is doing her due diligence, you just wish she were doing it somewhere else (and presumably not interrupting your own work to do it). I’d focus on that and not the issue of credit.

      1. The work fairy*

        I see what you mean, and I am wondering if this is normal and I am just being a crybaby about it. I am just annoyed that she gets all that feedback of “oh Anna is so smart and detailed and good at bringing up issues that could hurt the company” when this is all my work. She is getting promoted and I am jealous.
        And for more explanation, some of the issues and projects she asks me about are not specifically related to my department, but I still have information because I am curious and have looked it up.
        (if she were just asking info for stuff that is my department, I would understand better that it would be my responsibility to give her the info, but this is not limited to hat, if that makes sense)

        1. Paquita*

          In that case, you should only provide her with information specific to YOUR department. Refer her to whatever other department is relevant for anything else. She doesn’t need to know you actually already researched it.

  76. Anon for this...*

    No question here, really — just wanted to rant a bit.

    I got a new job late last year with a huge raise and the promise of increased responsibilities — so far, I’ve gotten the raise but not the responsibilities. I made way less at my old job, but since it was a much smaller organization, I had the opportunity to take on lots of responsibility simply because there was no one else to do any of it, and I really liked that. People knew me as a go-to person for basically everything — even if I didn’t know how to do something, I’d learn fast and execute it well. I love being busy, keeping a lot of spinning plates in the air, and learning new things.

    I was super duper clear in my interview for my current job about wanting to do a lot of different things and gain project management experience, and I was very clear about exactly what kind of projects I was looking for, and my interviewees/now-bosses said that there would be lots of project work for whoever was hired, as soon as they were hired. It was a new position and they were really eager for someone to start. But I think my bosses just have a different concept of what a “project” is — they’ll call something a project and ask me to do it, but it’s all task-y stuff and nothing really strategic that I “own.” I spend a lot of time doing administrative stuff that is important for my bosses but is frankly boring, especially since I don’t have the benefit of actually working on higher-level things when I’m not doing administrative stuff.

    I don’t know. There’s lots of room for advancement from this role, and I’m trying to be patient because I love who I work for, but I just feel bored and unchallenged. At my old job, I was basically just added to any committees that I was interested in because they were always shorthanded and looking for smart people, and that’s how I gained experience in various types of work — in this job, the organization isn’t shorthanded, so they essentially don’t NEED me, and they’re not actually using me for anything. I get the sense that I’m not exactly allowed to sit in on any of the meetings that I’m interested in. The result is that I’m not gaining as much knowledge as I want, so when my bosses ask me what sort of things I think I’m interested in, it’s extremely hard to answer because I’m not getting exposure to anything beyond my immediate day-to-day responsibilities and I have no idea where I could even fit in.

    Does any of this make sense? I have no idea. I’m still trying to work it out in my head. I know it’s too early to give up, and it’s a great organization, but I just feel stuck.

    1. Anon for this...*

      ETA: saying I got the job “late last year” isn’t really accurate — I started in August, so it’s been about 6 months. I was just job searching for so long that it FELT like it was late in the year :)

    2. Whats In A Name*

      The next time your boss asks you what you are interested in can you say what you said above? That you feel like you haven’t had the exposure you had hoped to/expected with this new position beyond the day-to-day tasks. Maybe you can lay out a plan of what specific meetings you’d like to sit in on and do that once a week?

      When she asks “what sort of thing are you interested in?” is there a chance she is asking you what exposure you do want?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Random tidbits.
      Do you have a job description? That could be handy for discussions with the boss. You could point to things you are not doing yet and ask how to get that ball rolling.

      I have to respond to “get the sense that I’m not exactly allowed to sit in on any of the meetings I am interested in…”. You know I have had that sense about things at jobs before. I have noticed that I will feed into that feeling for a while. Then it gets to a point where I have to say something. It’s more painful to guess why something is wrong than it is painful to hear the real answer. You could decide that silence hurts to much and you could just ask, “Can I attend X and Y meetings?” Sometimes we reach a point where we have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

  77. Lion Tamer*

    Suggestions on dealing with a supervisor who behaves erratically?

    Yesterday, I went into my supervisor’s office to let her know the fax machine was down (she has always been the go to person for these sort of issues) Without saying a word, she stormed out of her office and into the fax room. There was a box of reams of paper in front of some wires she wanted to check out on the fax machine. She picked up the box of paper, CHUCKED it behind her so hard that the box busted. Reams of paper slid all over across the floor. She sighs, starts picking up the reams, and throwing them down HARD on a nearby countertop. One of the reams slides across the counter into a paper tray that we use all the time, and breaks it. My supervisor then gets up, kicks the busted box against the wall, and walks out. She throws her hands up yelling about how “the damn fax always breaks.” Not 5 minutes later, she comes to my desk chipper as ever inquiring about whether I have any weekend plans, and discussing how pleased she was about the nice weather.

    Similar situations to this happen all the time. She has a huge overreaction to a minor issue, then is pleasant as can be minutes later, acting as if the situation never happens. It’s tiring dealing with her hot and cold behavior. I never know whether I’m going to get a lion or a lamb when I go to her to ask her a question.

    Any advice?

    1. Rocket Roy*

      Wow – I would have a very hard time handling that type of behavior. Are you close enough to discuss this erratic behavior with her? Are their trends to the triggers?

      1. Lion Tamer*

        Yes, we have a friendly working relationship. However, I am young (early 20’s), and she is in her 50’s. She tends to give me “life advice” as she likes to call it, so I am a bit afraid she would take offensive if someone my age tried to give her advice.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          I don’t think you frame it as advice. I think you frame it as, “when you do this, it’s disturbing and makes me feel unsafe.”

      2. Lion Tamer*

        Oh, and to answer the second question, no, there are not really any trends to the triggers. Various things set her off and various times. There isn’t any real pattern.

        1. Rocket Roy*

          Then I would say you need to speak with someone higher – this would be very difficult for me to deal with.
          I am very honest that if I saw someone throw a box across a room I would call security – personal safety is not something that should feel threatened in a workplace

      1. Lion Tamer*

        I’ve considered it, but he isn’t around much. Her boss is the owner (small organization), and he is often out and about. She has never displayed this behavior around him, and I think he would be shocked to find out that she acts that way.

        1. LizB*

          I think he would be shocked to find out that she acts that way

          All the more reason to tell him! He needs to know what’s going on to be able to manage effectively.

        3. No Name Yet*

          And if she doesn’t behave this way when he’s around it means she *can* control her outbursts, but sometimes chooses not to. (Might it be more complicated that this? Sure. But still true.)

    3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Yeah, this is really off the wall. I’d talk to her boss about it.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Also, if you’re friendly with her at all, I think you’re entirely in the right to say something direct and to the point like, “When you start throwing and breaking things, it’s really disconcerting and I have a hard time dealing with that level of anger, especially when you’re cheerful moments later.”

        1. Lion Tamer*

          I’ve considered this, but have a hard time being assertive as a young professional (early 20’s.) I know that’s something I have to get over eventually, though. Interestingly enough, coworker (who is 15 years my senior and is managed by the same supervisor) just spoke with her on MONDAY regarding her erratic behavior. Clearly, it didn’t do much good, though. I think she’s completely unaware of how she comes across sometime.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            Speaking as someone who has largely mastered an old tendency to fly off the handle, my guess is she’s unaware because nobody tells her – it’s a vicious circle. Some pushback from the people affected by it can get the old shame motivator working.

            That said, I know you said above that her boss would be shocked to hear about it, but I think he needs to, if you don’t feel like you’re on safe ground bringing it up directly. This is really Not Okay behavior in a workplace, and there are a lot of people who would feel directly threatened and upset by it. Alternatively, both you and your coworker could do it together, if you feel like you need a wingman.

          2. Leave peacefully*

            What if when she does that, you just calmly but assertively walk away? Tell her you will give her a few minutes to cool off and be back at your desk, stepping outside for a moment, etc. So you don’t have to bear witness to her violence against the office supplies and so she knows she can’t have an audience with you when she gets like that.

            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              I like this. Would a “Oooookay, this is making me really uncomfortable, I’m out,” parting shot be good?

              1. Not So NewReader*

                No parting shots.
                You want her to calm down, first and foremost. This means being a blandly professional as possible. Role model professional choices.

    4. LizB*

      My first reaction is “OMG get out of there,” but if you don’t want to go that route…

      I really think this is something her supervisor needs to handle. Probably with a suggestion to use the EAP, at the very least with a firm order NEVER to throw things or yell in the office or there will be immediate consequences. It also might be good for your supervisor to no longer be the “go to person” for these types of issues if they make her this frustrated. This behavior is so incredibly out of line that I’m not sure you can effectively manage up to correct it, and I’m sorry you’re dealing with it.

      1. Lion Tamer*

        I understand why that would be your first reaction.

        With that being said, I truly love my job and the work I do. I recently got a considerable raise, and am good at what I do. The funny thing is that (when she’s in a chipper mood), my supervisor tells me how valuable I am, and how she never wants me to leave, etc. Every time she says this, my first thought (which I don’t say aloud) is, ‘if I ever did leave, you would be the reason why!’

        Unfortunately, our office is too small for her NOT to be the go-to person for these types of things. It’s actually part of her job description.

        Thank you for your sympathies!

    5. TL -*

      I am an incredibly assertive person, so your mileage may vary, but honestly, in the moment, I would just say, “Okay, we’ll talk about this later,” and leave the moment she starts throwing a fit.

      I have, in moments of extreme aggravation, said things like, “Okay, we’ll talk about this when we’re calmer/you’re calmer,” and once, “Okay, we’ll talk about this when you can be an adult.” and left but, um, even though I did not get in trouble for that last one and it did stop the (very mild) tantrums, I would not recommend it.

    6. FishCakesHurrah*

      I’ve had a passive aggressive supervisor who behaved like that. I just left the room when she started. I knew she could control herself, because she never did it in front of our boss.

  78. Confused Publisher*

    I got a new job! At a much bigger, and more reputed company!
    Here’s the backstory. I stayed on in academia, post PhD, for a year, and then fell into academic publishing. I’ve stayed at the same employer for 5 years, but was last promoted 18 months in – so 3.5 years ago, despite promotions being promised and my appraisals always being stellar.
    Alison’s advice about applying even if you’re not a textbook match is SO true: I got offered the job within 36 hours of interviewing, and they loved my skills test, although, on paper, I wasn’t what they were looking for. (They wanted someone with a science background, and ended up with someone from the humanities, with a side of law.)
    Thanks Alison for your advice, and the community here for supplementing it in such wonderful ways.

  79. extra anon for this*

    Hi open thread! I need some insight into a situation with my boss.

    I’ve read Allison’s post about a boss always being late for meetings, and how bosses can be late and it isn’t disrespectful to my time, because my boss is a high-level person and therefore her time is intrinsically more valuable than mine. While I agree and understand this, I feel like my boss has strayed far from what is the norm and acceptable, but I’m really not sure. So – I would like to get some feedback on if I have a right to be as irritated with this as I am becoming.

    Context: She has a full time job in an entirely different field and does this role off the side of her desk. She is not on-site in my office. She involved in every aspect of everyone’s jobs – meaning we have no ability to make decisions, even if they are entirely within our prevue and at our level to be making. She is like this with everyone at every level, including other directors who normally would be in charge of their budgets, or making decisions about their workflow, etc. It’s very apparent she has no trust in any of her staff to do any part of their job correctly without her oversight.

    She is late for every meeting, including meetings with her own bosses and other people higher up the food chain. It’s not uncommon to have a teleconference scheduled with her, and then to have her never dial in. If you decide to hang up after 30 minutes and she dials in after that and you aren’t there, you are deemed irresponsible and get reprimanded about it later. For my performance review last year she was 45 minutes late, and then had a coworker come get me to tell me that the room had been changed and I should go somewhere else. My review ending up being 15 minutes in total.

    She will often ask you to meet with her, except she never sets a time or date. Sometimes, she will give you a vague time that you should call, email, and text her so that she will remember you want to meet, and will then call you. I’ve had multiple instances of cancelling meetings to make time for her when she has done this, where she then has never called or responded.

    She consistently undermines and undervalues your work. When I’ve brought her items for her approval, I’ve been told that I have no authority to make decisions, and also told that people should come directly to her rather than to me – even when the items I’m bringing her are directly related to my job function and have come up as part of my work. She’s invited herself to meetings where a high level presence isn’t needed or appropriate, and

    It’s nearly impossible to get feedback on any work. If you email her documents and requests, your emails are often ignored. If she does see your email she doesn’t read the information contained within the email the vast majority of the time. She will send you multiple emails demanding clarification when clarification could be had from reading your email. If you bring up the issues you’ve emailed at the meeting, you often have to spend your entire meeting time bringing her up to speed before decisions can be made because she hasn’t read anything you sent, but then there often isn’t time for a decision to be made so everything is tabled. She also will interject during project proposals, or project debriefs with assumptions she’s made that have no basis, and go on tangents for several minutes on this incorrect assumption.

    She also thinks that everyone is out to get her. It’s not uncommon for meetings to devolve into reasons for why we can’t do things, and those reasons are often that xyz person, entity, thing, either doesn’t like our organization, or that there is extreme politics that the rest of us don’t understand and that will need to be considered deeply before a decision is made. Quite often, these decisions are never made. If the decision involved you and one of your contacts, you have to spend a significant amount of political and social capital covering for why you dropped the ball, without calling out your boss. It’s very exhausting.

    Everything with her is an emergency. It’s not uncommon to receive emails at 11 PM on a Saturday asking for urgent info that is needed ASAP that could easily be googled. Often the questions she has have been addressed before, or are on our shared drive, etc. Getting information to her is difficult – she has a very strict set of requirements for how email attachments can be sent to her, otherwise she is unable to open them. It is not uncommon for her to not be able to read anything you attach for her at all, regardless of the delivery method (attachment, shared drive folders, dropbox, direct download link on a server, etc).

    She also will ask you for last minute requests for very high level, detailed work, that is almost impossible to produce in the short timelines she wants it in. Often she will tell you something is urgent and needed in the next few hours, but then you come to find out it isn’t actually isn’t needed until Friday. But, this is always after you’ve had to reschedule your entire day, and change the workflow of your team to fulfill the panicked request. Alternatively, she will tell you work she needs you to do, and other priorities that you need to focus on. When you bring her a finalized proposal for a project, etc, she will often either forget this was a priority, or she will cut down the work you have done completely. It’s very rare to receive praise from this boss, and if you do it’s usually a “you’re doing great!” after she has publicly torn apart a proposal or project you’ve been working on in front of your coworkers.

    She also has favored employees. If you aren’t the flavour of the week your treatment is noticeably different than the way she treats the golden employee. This is incredibly destabilizing – and it makes it very hard to bring issues to your boss when she’s spending her vacation with your problem coworker and going clubbing with her.

    Finally, she’s impossible to give feedback to. If you go to her with feedback about a request, or ask that you have more lead time in the future to prepare work (for example, more than a day’s notice to prepare an annual, comprehensive report) she gets very defensive. Often she will turn around any requests or feedback you have to make you the problem. She will never help you come up with solutions – even when I’ve brought things to her using scripts from Alison the results are always the same – a conversation that has gone nowhere, OR empty promises to do better or implement a new process that result in nothing.

    I feel like all of this combined is beyond what is reasonable or acceptable. I understand her time is more valuable than mine – but my time does have some value. At the very least, it’s hard to not feel disrespected when you are constantly ignored, undermined, micromanaged, etc. My partner is telling me that this normal and that all bosses and workplaces are like this, so I need to stop complaining and get used to the real world. So, AAM readers who made it through this wall of text – what do I do? I’m already employing a lot of tips and techniques from comments I’ve read here, and I’m looking for another job, but I feel like I’m slowly going crazy with all of this. And, even worse, I’m really worried that every boss and job will be like this, and if that’s the case, maybe I shouldn’t be focused on leaving at all.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      She’s bonkers, just a textbook bad boss. They’re not all like this. Make plans to leave, because this job sucks and will never change, and I promise you you’ll end up with a better boss.

    2. LizB*

      Nope, not every boss and job will be like this. Your boss is really bad at lots of aspects of her job. This isn’t a being-respectful-of-your-time issue, this is a literally-everything-is-bad issue. Get out of there.

    3. Whats In A Name*

      I don’t think there is a technique for handling this situation. Well, maybe 1: start applying elsewhere.

      Not all jobs are like this and this is not the real work. Late to meetings and no-showing are 2 different things and being angry if people assume a meeting she is running is cancelled after she doesn’t show up 30 minutes into it? Not normal.

      Pack it up sister.

    4. LQ*

      Not every boss. Not every job!

      I really like https://www.askamanager.org/2016/03/the-reality-check-post-does-your-job-suck-or-are-you-being-too-picky.html
      This post to sort of get a reality check because you’re equating things that are fairly normal to things that are just WAY out of left field. And some of them might be ok on their own (a high level person who really just wants you to tell them whats going on very very quickly without having to read stuff) but when combined with everything else is way unreasonable.

    5. caligirl*

      Not normal, not every boss or workplace is like this, I promise! Can you pretend like you are an anthropologist and simply observe without until you get a great new job, better than you can even imagine right now ? “The subject has called in 32 minutes late on a conference call this morning.” “The subject has just shouted an order for a 15 page research paper with 27 citations in 2 point font that is due in 90 minutes.”

      Sending good luck to you!!

    6. Engineer Woman*

      Totally agree. At first, when I read about the constant lateness, I though “OMG, there’s someone else out there like that?”. My husbands boss is notoriously late for meetings, and if it’s with his superiors included, maybe just 5-10 minutes late. If it’s a 1 on 1, apparently you just wait for him which could be up to 1/2 the duration of the meeting and he never apologizes for being late.

      But then you moved onto all the other craziness and only advice is leave as fast as you can.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      You will go a long ways before you encounter another boss this bad. This woman should not be in charge of a bag of potatoes, never mind be in charge of actual people.

      Your partner is woefully underestimating the severity and the scope of the problem. This is like you have opened your refrigerator door and you see all the food has for some reason rotted. All your partner sees is a few rotten radishes and a rotten head of lettuce. You are correct, everything here is rotten.

      Focus on leaving. PLEASE, focus on leaving. Work does not have to be this awful, honest.
      In the meantime, try to stay under the radar as much as possible. Look for coworkers or other bosses who would be willing to be a good reference for you, if you can do this.

    8. Chaordic One*

      I’m not surprised that she thinks everyone is out to get her, but of course, she is her own worst enemy.

    9. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I think it comes down to a matter of scale. For someone who isn’t directly living it, it can be hard to understand exactly the level of annoyance vs the level of bad. So your partner is right in a way – there will always be bosses that exhibit one or some of the traits above and you have to decide if you can work around those or not. For example the micromanagement aspect may crop up but she will otherwise be dead on time for meetings and open to feedback – can you live with that or not? Or no micromanagement but unreasonable requests.

      However – all of this rolled up into one without a willingness to change? Bail – because ultimately she will 1) never go to bat for you and could very well be throwing you under the bus/speaking ill of you towards more senior people that will limit your ability to move up or elsewhere in the firm (believe this happens – happened ot me), 2) will never change regardless of feedback. You can’t grow and are being stressed for no reason, so why stay?

      I do think a stint with a poor manager can be beneficial to learn managing upwards and what not to do when you are a manager yourself, but if you have put in your time then get the hell out of there, especially one this bad.

    10. tigerStripes*

      This is not normal. This boss is terrible. In my experience, most bosses don’t normally expect you to wait more than 5-10 minutes for them. A good boss gives good feedback and trusts you to do some things.

  80. Anon E Mouse*

    Help me shut down a truly obnoxious co-irker. Backstory: he is stern, sarcastic, resistant to change, and makes passive-aggressive “jokes.” I am younger, female, and have specifically been assigned to take a team-lead type role (supervising projects and initiatives, but not people) that especially focus on changing existing structures.
    Incident 1: He send an all-office email about a new way of doing things (on a day when I was visibly doing The New Thing) stating that the people who were doing The New Thing were inconsiderate, unprofessional, and inconveniencing him.
    Incident 2: The whole office was instructed to pick up some Clorox wipes and be mindful of frequent disinfecting during an outbreak of influenza A. He saw a female coworker doing this and commented that it was nice to see “a woman doing women’s work” in front of colleagues and clients.
    Incident 3: Finally, while I was leading a group meeting and discussion about A New Thing, he IM’d me the following:
    “Why are you dominating the conversation? Let (male staff members) talk.”
    I replied, “Wow. Did you mean that to sound so rude?”
    He replied, “I don’t think it sounded rude enough. Move over and let (male staff members) shine. (Female staff member’s) dress is so ugly – it actually hurts my eyes.”
    Me: “I’m not really open to rude comments about coworkers. Let’s keep it professional. If you are contributions to the conversation, feel free to jump in.”
    I have checked with a critical friend to see if I was out of line in the meeting; she pointed out I was talking in equal measure with male team leads. I do not generally interact, work next to, or socialize with this man. We have no HR, but we do have a manager who knows in a general sense that team culture is not great. In the past, complaints about this rude dude have been dismissed as “he’s joking,” and “that’s just how he is.” I’m job-searching, and if I had a firm offer, I would BURN THIS BRIDGE WITH ANGRY FIRE, but I don’t.
    Give me some words to put in writing to this co-irker, and a script for approaching the manager. Ugh!

    1. LCL*

      Stop keeping his secrets for him. Call him on this stuff the moment he does it, with witnesses. He IMs you in a meeting? Read his IM aloud, including the parts about the woman in the ugly dress. Reply all to the email, asking him to define how the new thing is inconveniencing him. Ask him why using Clorox wipes is woman’s work.

      If you are on good terms with your manager, ask to meet with them. Tell them you want to do some roleplaying. Read back the jerks comments a few times, substituting different groups for female/women. Ask manager if this is OK. Explain how this hurting team culture. Manager probably doesn’t realize how bad it is. I bet the jerk thinks this kind of snarky talk is funny, and is hoping for a reaction.

    3. NaoNao*

      Grr. He’s doing it because he can. Stop making it so he can.
      If the manager says “he’s joking” you can say something like “Regardless of if he’s joking or not, it’s rude, offensive, hurtful, and above all, unprofessional. I need it to stop.”
      Document everything he says and does and see if you can get others effected by this person to do so as well. Go to the manager as a group with your observations and see if there’s more strength in numbers.
      Also, it might help to clearly articulate what you *do* want; perhaps even by writing a formal policy or mission statement about the culture, such as
      Teapots, Inc. strives to include and be respectful to all, especially those we work with. Remarks that single out an aspect of a worker’s [list of protected classes] will not be tolerated under any circumstances. We expect respect, professionalism and cooperation.” or something.

    4. BRR*

      Yeah this would get an email to your manager and possibly someone else with the subject line “Formal complaint of sexual harassment.” This jerk was kind enough to put it in writing.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Bingo.

        Let your boss know that it is irrelevant that he is joking, because jokes of that nature are not acceptable either. So whether he is joking or serious has no bearing here, it’s still sexual harassment.

    5. Observer*

      I think you need to talk to your manager. What this guy is doing is putting the organization t risk, unless you are very, very small.

      The bottom line is that he’s going to drive good women away. And if any woman sues, or goes to the DOL / EEOC, his behavior and the fact that management knows about it, is going to work against them. It doesn’t matter if he’s “just joking”. It’s a pattern of negative behavior that targets a group based on their being female, and that’s just not ok. It’s even less ok that management is ok with it.

  81. Hillclimber*

    I have some questions for government employees/those involved in government hiring. I’m currently working on an application for a GS-14 role through USAJobs. It’s a job that is pretty specialized, and in which I have more than a decade of experience on the civilian side working alongside my government equivalent or opposite number – though for a different agency than the one to which I am applying. Despite my familiarity with the role and experience with the federal government, I’ve never worked directly for the government before and would like to hear from readers who’ve successfully navigated USAJobs.

    I’ve read that federal resumes are different than standard resumes: that you should mimic the language and keywords of the job description, that you should explicitly demonstrate how you meet all of the required qualifications, that federal resumes are longer than civilian resumes, and that federal resumes should be narrative rather than bulleted. Does this mesh with others’ experience? Is there really no limit to resume length? How narrative should the resume be? Currently mine looks more like an essay than a traditional resume; is this likely to be a problem? I know that the first round of screening is done by people with no knowledge of the job in question, and frankly the description doesn’t demonstrate much in-depth knowledge of the role either. The role is very specialized, and in order to explain my achievements and experience I have included some background and contextualizing information, adding to the length. Is there anything else I should know? Any insight would be appreciated.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Assume that the first person reviewing the resume is either a computer, or a human with absolutely no knowledge of the job. Explain everything clearly and in plain english, and make sure the mandatory and highly desired assessment factors are CLEARLY laid out. It’s ok to include language like “the following experience supports Mandatory Assessment Factor 1 at experience level D” if you can.

      You can make it a narrative, but try to break your narrative into bullets or short paragraphs because these things are honestly a slog and we sometimes skim (I know, I know).

    2. Government mule*

      It’s been awhile since I used USAJobs, but ISTR having character limits for the different fields. I recommend noting the questions and limits, then writing your answers offline, and copy/paste’ing into your final resume. USAJobs also used to let you have several resumes at the same time. Just be sure to submit the right one!

  82. Nervous Accountant*

    Okay I’m a little annoyed bc I posted it but it’s disappeared? I didn’t post anything weird? Anyway, so this is the condensed version. I held off on posting about this bc I didn’t want to jinx anything but…

    Annoying aggressive gaslighting manipulative coworker I talked about a few weeks ago, left!

    He gave his 2 weeks noticed, and ultimately left 4 days early. He didn’t say goodbye to most of us, he didn’t even tell our boss it was his last day until he was about to leave for the day at 8 PM.
    I found out bc I had talked to my boss about something related to him….(2 of our metrics for success here is a high number of returns in the lowest turnaround time–he had the highest numbers and lowest hours, so on paper he looked “successful” but everyone knew he was begging others to give him easy/$0 returns AND dumping a lot of data entry work on interns). So my boss told me to leave him alone, he gave his 2 weeks!

    And not even that–so my boss said he was authorized to give a counteroffer but he wasn’t sure if it was the right thing. Since he brought it up to me, I said hell naw! OK jk I didn’t say that–I did give him the reasons why I think a c/o isn’t the best idea, and let him make that decision. (my husband said I should have MYOB but I disagree). Ultimately he agreed with me, but our boss pressured him to make the c/o, which he did…ultimately he didn’t take it and left 4 days early.

    Other random/miscellaneous stuff happened too, but mostly that we got hit with a lot of work this week…partly bc my team is down 1 person, but also historically we get slammed iwth a lot around this time.

    53 days to go ! :)

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I’m sorry, I had no idea it went into moderation. I don’t see what I said that made it go into moderation.

        2. TL -*

          My posts have been going into moderation off and on for the past few weeks, if it makes you feel better. It happens; it’ll probably stop happening at some point.

          (Thanks for deleting the duplicate yesterday, Alison!)

        3. Ultraviolet*

          I believe that if you include an email in the email field, and your post goes into moderation, the page will actually say “comment awaiting moderation” or similar. Whereas if you don’t include an email, it looks like your comment just vanished. So filling out the email field can be helpful if you’re not sure what’s happening to your posts.

  83. Lucy Westenra*

    I have a quandary and I’m looking for an outside perspective.

    Background: I was cut loose from my job late last year because I failed a test for a skill that I wasn’t proficient in. I was told I could reapply in a couple of months, but not to limit my options. It has more or less been a couple of months. I have brushed up on the skill in question more than was required and have a card in my wallet to prove it, plus another card I got from a class I took for an advanced set of skills that’s encouraged but not required. Everything I’ve planned to do has been done, unless I want to go for more advanced/supplementary skills.

    Do I:
    a) Reapply to old job. It was the only job I’ve had my entire life that I’ve genuinely enjoyed. I’m not afraid of rejection, but I am afraid they’ll bring up things I did wrong from the first time I worked there, or even things I didn’t know I did wrong. I hate it when people do that.

    b) Apply for the same job at a different company. Risks include getting hired by a company that treats its employees like crap. A lot of entry-level jobs in my industry are like that. However, it would be a clean slate. However-however, I don’t have a car and need a job accessible by public transit, and a lot of companies won’t hire you if you’re under 21 for insurance reasons.

    c) Move to another state and get a job there. This is doable, but I’d have to transfer my license (not too hard), and my driving license (slightly harder). On the bright side, I could reconnect with family I haven’t seen in ages. I’m leaning away from it because I’m an adult and moving to a new city every time things get tough seems a tad juvenile.

    d) Leave the industry altogether and work at the sandwich shop down the street. I’d be working with good people in a positive environment, and minimum wage in my city’s not too shabby. (Plus most jobs in my industry barely pay minimum wage anyway).

    Sorry for the wallotext. I feel kind of paralyzed right now and was hoping an unbiased opinion could help unstick me.

    1. Stellaaaaa*

      Start by reapplying to the old job. They told you that you could. You wouldn’t be acting like the annoying repeat apply-ers in the emails here. See how that shakes out before deciding to apply elsewhere.

      1. Lucy Westenra*

        I think I’ll do that. Not sure if anyone’s still on this thread, but do you have any cover letter tips for reapplying to an old job that axed you?

        1. Evergreen*

          I’m not an expert but I would suggest briefly writing what you’ve written here: that you enjoyed working there, that you have subsequently undertaken training in the skill in question, add anything else you’ve learned or done since they let you go. Use your knowledge of what’s important to them as a company to describe what you’re excited do for them if you rejoined them.

          Also, I doubt they’re going to invite you in to interview just to point out things you’ve done wrong in the past. They’ll look to be sure that you take negative criticism well and constructively and understand why you were let go, but this should be a small portion of the interview.

    2. LizB*

      I think I’m inclined to suggest an option e): work at the sandwich shop down the street for a while, and in the meantime look for low-cost life coaching or counseling to psych yourself up to reapply to your old job. I also hate when people bring things up I did wrong in the past, but through some great counseling and mentoring experiences, I’ve learned how to respond to those kinds of situations in a constructive way so even though they make my emotions flare, I can work through it and not get totally thrown off. I think it could be really beneficial for you to build your confidence and skills so you feel ready to handle that kind of criticism, because you’re likely to run into it every once in a while. When you think you’re ready, you can reapply – or you might decide that the sandwich shop is a better fit anyway, which is also okay. Either way, it gives you an opportunity to be in a positive, low-stress environment for a while so you can do some internal work if you want.

      1. Lucy Westenra*

        That’s a good idea, except it wouldn’t really be fair of me to work someplace for only a few months and then leave everyone hanging when I go back to my old job. I understand that’s bad form.

        1. LizB*

          It’s bad form for office/professional jobs, but it’s not nearly as looked-down-upon in food service and retail, as far as I know. Someone else can correct me, but it’s pretty common for those jobs to be short-term. You wouldn’t have to leave everyone hanging, either – you can still give two weeks’ notice, and even recommend someone else to be interviewed if you know of someone good to fill the position you’d be vacating. You know this particular shop best, of course, but I don’t think you’d be violating any major work norms by doing a good job for them for a few months and then moving on.

    3. Chaordic One*

      I say both a and b.

      If you get an interview for a and they bring up things you did wrong the first time you worked there, you tell them you’ve learned from your mistakes and while you can’t promise you’ll never make a mistake, you will certainly correct as many of them as possible when you’re aware of them.

      If those then don’t work out and you want to move or want to stay in the same occupation, then proceed to c.

      If a and b don’t work out and you want to stay in the area, the proceed to d.

  84. Anon10111973*

    2 good notes to wrap up a stressful internal audit week:
    1) I got a 4 (out of 5) on my Performance eval = 4% raise!
    2) Annual Bonus dropped today!

  85. Anon for my open thread question*

    Can someone who is familiar with federal hiring help me with this? I see a position on USAJobs that I would be interested in applying for (Historian), but only if it is in my current city. The job posting says there is one vacancy at the following locations, then lists 75 cities scattered around the country. Do they legitimately mean they are hiring one person for each of those locations, or is it common practice to list a bunch of places when they really would prefer to have hires in just a handful of locations?

    4. A Good Jess*

      It usually means they are legitimately hiring one person for each location. When you submit your resume, there should also be a form that asks for your geographical preference, and you should only enter your city.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I wish private sector jobs did that. I got caught by something that was in Bigger City, My State and Smaller Sucky City in Colder State, where their headquarters was. Bigger City was listed first, but when they emailed me, the job was in Smaller Sucky City. I thought from the wording that it was in Bigger City. If it’s not, THEN WHY EVEN LIST IT ARRGGGHHH

        So when I applied to a different job that listed multiple states, I said, “I am eager to relocate, particularly to State Where I Actually Want to Live.”

  86. slackr*

    hey is it just my browser settings, or are the ads on AAM more intrusive lately? The web page keeps cycling as new ads pop up on the bottom, until the page stalls after about 15 minutes. Even when I have multiple windows open I can see the tab flicker as the page reloads.

    2. Mirth & Merry*

      Ditto. This week the ads are even getting past the office filter. I never knew how spoiled I was before.
      (not that I read while working…)

  87. Butch Cassidy*

    I’m a quality auditor – my job is to assess how well our associates are processing applications from people who want to sell teapots on our site. My team has meetings every week to ensure our standards are the same, by grabbing a couple of applications from the previous couple of weeks, auditing them, and comparing results. At these meetings there’s always one or two people (the same one or two people) who will use the meeting to bring up things that are best kept as part of an ongoing conversation or given their own meeting rather than seeking to resolve them Right This Minute, or fighting hard to defend their perspective when much of the rest of the group disagrees with them. There’s only an hour set aside for these meetings, and because of these two people, it can easily stretch beyond the hour (we all have some work that is time-sensitive, so this gets stressful). When these people aren’t at the meetings, things are much more efficient.

    I’m not in any kind of leadership position, and our manager is rarely at these meetings. There’s one person who does tend to run the meetings, but he’s frequently busy and he’s also not really in an leadership position. Would it be inappropriate for me (and maybe a couple of my colleagues who have similar concerns) to speak to him about this? I’m not even sure how I could effectively describe the problem.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Can you or someone make an agenda and stick to items on the agenda?

      Or how about looking at another person and saying, “Dan, I think you said you had to leave at 3 pm sharp. So I think we better stay on track here so we finish on time.”

      Or maybe you can point out that this current meeting is not for hashing out these other issues and point to the stack of applications then ask everyone to focus on the applications.

      If all else fails maybe you can ask your boss how he would like you to handle these overrun meetings.

  88. paul*

    Handling occasional check ins for work when you’re hourly is confusing. Oneo f my hats is basically information work during local events/disasters. Yesterday we had a *lot* of grass fires in the region so after I left the office I was checking in about every 30 minutes, seeing if I needed to send update emails to other locations, if clients were being impacted, etc. After 8:30 or 9 I only checked in twice because most of the fires were out. Went to bed when the last one was kinda-sorta contained and mostly heading out into the big empty.

    Now, I’m hourly because the vast majority of my job duties fall into duties that would be covered by those descriptions but sometimes it gets weird when stuff like this happens. How much of that time is or should be on the clock? My boss is just having me count it all and leave early today (10 more minutes) and most of the time it isn’t a big deal, but I’m worried about this upcoming fire season because we had a *really* wet year 1 year ago but an incredibly dry winter and they’re predicting a dry, windy spring and summer which means massive prairie fires.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      You have a good and supportive boss, do what he says to do. Make sure you get paid for your time and try not to worry about it.

  89. burned to a crisp*

    I’m in a situation where my job is too good to leave, but also feels too bad to stay. After nine years, the stress of our working environment is getting to me. The expectations are high and my job covers a big range of duties. I constantly feel like I’m doing everything “fine,” but not great. Part of me knows that isn’t rational – I recently won an award for high performance – but the last year has been a pressure cooker. I’m burned out. Couple that with having a new supervisor that I am not gelling with at all and is making my life harder in a lot of ways, and I feel close to quitting. Yet I still really like my other colleagues and believe in our mission. Leaving would actually make me really sad.

    1. Delta Delta*

      Been there, done that, currently unemployed on my couch wearing the commemorative t-shirt. I was at a similar place for about 10 years and finally just couldn’t be there anymore. Said “sorry, not sorry, but y’all are crazytunes, and I have to get the heck out of here.” I liked my work, I liked my colleagues, I believed in what I was doing. But there was pressure in the job itself and I just couldn’t keep showing up there. I was very sad to leave but realize I would have completely lost my mind if I stayed. I was actually at the point where I was crying in the car on the way to and from work and could not talk about my job without actual screaming. We human beings should not live and work like this.

    2. Chaordic One*

      This sounds disturbingly familiar to me. There were a whole bunch of things wrong with the job (which I won’t go into here) where I had worked for five years. In addition to all the stress, a promised raise was denied (supposedly by HR who didn’t feel my job description had changed enough when compared to people allegedly doing similar jobs in other departments to warrant a pay raise). I had started a job search, but before I could find another job, I was fired and told that I was resistant to change. I miss some of my former coworkers.

      In retrospect, I really wish I had quit after the promised pay raise fell through. I also wish I had made more effort in my job search. Before I was fired, there were a handful of very good openings that I did not get around to applying for because I was just too exhausted from all the stress at work to do much more than veg out in front of the tv and computer when I got home from work.

  90. LK*

    Pls help me brainstorm! My husband’s an independent contractor and his industry has significantly cooled in the last 6-12months. He’s looking to move out of that field and into some form of moderately stable 9-5ish job, but he’s not really into the corporate office idea. Other than looking up various startups (he likes that culture and has friends who work startups), what type of positions do you think his experience could translate into? I’m at a loss as I work in the legal field and have a limited exposure to the variety of the job market.

    My husband has spent the last 6+ years working as a Photography Assistant in commercial photography. He’s done lots of the same stuff that Grips do….. plus all of the things you would assume an assistant does….. setting up complicated technical lighting arrangements to fetching coffee to wrangling talent and car rentals…… he’s got a LOT of photographic and video equipment and setup knowledge plus he’s really good at “assistant” skills like seeing what needs to be done and doing it without having to ask or bother someone, or waiting for someone to ask him. He’s in high demand, but there just isn’t much work to demand him right now – the entire city is having trouble finding enough jobs.

    Thanks so much all….

    1. GigglyPuff*

      Might sound a little unusual but has he checked out media archival firms? For example I know Northeast Document Conservation Center is hiring for a Photographer right now. I know there are several companies that might possibly hire for positions like that (which I’m totally drawing a blank on names right now, uh), like Heritage Werks or The History Factory. Places like that, or there might be cultural places that want to hire a photographer to do publicity shots. I hope this helps.

      1. LK*

        Thanks! I’m in Canada and I have never heard of such a thing….I did some googling but doesn’t seem to be much around….. I’ll dig!

        Cultural places are often run by nonprofit societies who get photographic services donated and are loathe to pay anything, let alone a living wage, to people who document their events. :(

  91. Amber Rose*

    I have no questions this week, so instead, welcome to another episode of the Many Annoyances of the Most Annoying Coworker (MAC). Previously we learned that he is literally four, when he interrupted my phone call with a customer by yelling my name repeatedly simply to find out if I was on the phone.

    This week’s misadventure: The Song.

    Me: *coughing*
    MAC: *moves to stand behind me* Are you sure you aren’t allergic to me?
    Me: As I’ve mentioned, coughing fits are a side effect of a medicine I’m currently on.
    MAC: Oh, right. That sucks. You know, I wrote a song this morning about how much I hate the one I’m on.
    Me: Hmm. *turns back to spreadsheet I’m working with*
    MAC: Yeah, I can’t really remember how it goes though.
    Me: *enters some data* Oh well.
    MAC: Oh, right, it was something like, [name of drug] hurts your head, [name of drug] you’ll feel dead, but it’s just [name of drug]… *continues for a while*
    Me: *has shut down, can’t formulate a response, pokes at keyboard numbly*

    He finally left me alone after that, but the whole afternoon was punctuated by whistling and humming to the tune of his “song.”

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I have a MAC too. I don’t respond to her inane comments at all. Treat your MAC as you would a toddler. Don’t encourage or respond to stupid behavior.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Yes, but as I learned last time, if I don’t respond, he starts screaming my name. I wasn’t exaggerating about behaving like he’s four years old, he will literally sit for 5 minutes just calling my name, getting louder and louder until I answer.

        1. Lemon Zinger*

          That’s when you need to say “Fergus, do not scream in the office.” Have you talked to your boss about this? His behavior is totally out of line.

          1. Amber Rose*

            Management’s reaction to his behavior has been… less than good. “Just be nice to him and don’t set him off.” They’ve made it blatantly clear that no matter what he does, or how many times he freaks out, or even if he up and disappears for a week with no warning, this dude will have a job here.

            This is a poorly run company in many ways.

          1. Amber Rose*

            Multiple times a day. When he’s not around, other coworkers make comments about him killing us, since he’s just really off as a person.

            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              Just wanted to leave no stone unturned. Because holy crap, I’d be picking out a lonely country road for the shallow grave at this point.

              1. Amber Rose*

                Yeah, I’ve been informed that literally every other person who has sat next to him has requested a new desk within a couple of months, as far from him as possible.

                Sadly, this is the biggest cube we have and I need the space.

        3. Mephyle*

          How about if you keep a sign at your desk (I’m picturing a placard on a stick) that says DO NOT SCREAM IN THE OFFICE, and hold it up when needed?

          1. Amber Rose*

            I often daydream about having access to signs for every day annoyances. For example, instead of simmering in my car when someone cuts me off suddenly, I’d have a sign that would light up saying “Nice turn signal, buttface.”

            But then I remember it’s not practical to carry around like, 20 angry signs.

        4. TMA*

          Dude. I actually have a four-year-old, and even he learned that he’s not allowed to do that. I can’t imagine having work with him in a professional setting.

    2. DevAssist*

      My MAC talks to you in a way where her every statement basically compels you to politely engage in an asinine conversation. She also comes over to the plant near my desk and uses scissors to cut the brown parts of leaves off. Seriously. This poor ficus has leaves that look like paper snowflakes because of how she’s gone to town on it.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Is your MAC my supervisor? She is obsessed with pruning and plucking the heck out of every plant we have.

        1. JustaTech*

          I think part of the reason my office got a plant-tending service was so they could have an “official reason” to tell people to stop pruning the plants.

    3. Amber T*

      I’m sincerely wondering if you work with a friend of mine. He’s half amusing, half irritating. This is absolutely something he would do, which, for me, would fall under the half amusing/half irritating part of the friendship. But that’s in a personal setting – it would absolutely drive me batty if he was a coworker.

      Or your MAC is Archer. “Lana. Lana. Lana! LAAAAAAANNNNNNNAAAAAAAAAA!!!!”

      1. Amber Rose*

        This guy is missing the half amusing part though. He also yells at people at random. I was talking to a coworker once in semi-quiet tones and he walked up and basically screamed “STOP TALKING ABOUT ME” and then walked away in tears.

        He’s more half irritating, half scary.

        1. LizB*

          Whoa, someone I work with did basically the same thing the other day!

          The difference is that my person was a 2nd grader with behavior challenges, I “work with” him in the sense that I am his teacher, and I had a nice chat with him about not screaming at his classmates/what to do instead if he’s worried others are being mean to him. I also let his parents know the situation so they can relay the incident to his therapist.

  92. Anonish*

    It’s the last day of Awful Know-it-All colleague’s vacation, and I am dreading his return on Monday. My team has openly discussed how great it’s been without him and how productive we’ve been. I just know that when he comes back, he’s going to find a reason to make all our lives miserable because we dared to get anything done without his direct input.

      1. Anonish*

        It’s a possibility, if we could find someone willing to sit through a lecture on the history and development of duct tape and my coworker’s personal opinion of such.

    2. Effie*

      What if you all ignore him? Would he plant himself solidly in front of someone’s work so they’d be unable to proceed without moving him out of the way? I’ve found that the best way for me to get rid of my office AKIA is to make noncommittal noises, avoid eye contact, and keep working on whatever I’m working on. If he stays I stop making noncommittal noises and keep going. Avoiding eye contact is crucial! If I slip up it resets the clock to the beginning of the interaction. (This works for me because when I’m facing my work there’s no physical way for someone to keep my attention – no one is skinny enough to slip between me and my work. This may not work as well for you, depending on your situation).

  93. I Am Become the Internet, Destroyer of Time*

    As someone who’s just started reading AAM and is about to enter (non-academic) work for the first time this summer:

    I’ve realized I need help balancing my workplace self with my out-of-workplace self.

    I know that I need to be really careful about what I say/do, a lot more careful than I would, say, working in a lab (which is basically what I’ve been doing the last few years). I’ve been lucky to have a *very* good Career Services department that offers, among other things, explicit definitions of formal and casual businesswear, and a detailed guide to professional dining.

    But I’ve also been told that I can be too stiff when I act out my interpretation of “professional.” One such critique came from two managers I interviewed with this past year.

    The problem is, my native self tends away from excessive social nicities and needless rules, and toward creativity and cynicism. This makes being professional feel fake, especially while networking. But I know that I have to wear this mask if I want to eat and pay off my student loans.

    (I’m going to be writing teapot software after I graduate, and I have the feeling this work environment is a lot more informal than others. But still, there’s probably some line I need to color in to keep from looking like an idiot.)

    How do AAM’s readers balance their work and nonwork selves?

    (Long post. Sorry.)

    1. MWKate*

      The first few weeks of a job you are generally settling in and training. It’s expected (in my experience) that you will probably be a little quieter and maybe a little nervous as you are settling in. This is a good opportunity to determine the culture of the workplace. Take a look at the employee manual for dress code – and take your cues from other employees. It’s better to err on the side of more formal until you get it figured out.

      Did the managers give you an idea of what they meant by stiff? If you were just interviewing with them, people are understandably generally more nervous in those situations. I also wouldn’t say that professional = social niceties and needless rules, and non-professional = creativity and cynicism. What would you say is an example of a “needless rule”? It can be easy to label something as unnecessary without having the necessary background or experience to determine why it’s done a certain way.

      1. I Am Become the Internet, Destroyer of Time*

        Thanks for the suggestions re:the start of a job.

        The managers specifically mentioned that I was acting a bit stiff during the interview, that I was maybe just a bit too formal. I get the sense that maybe I should’ve tried to let things flow more naturally.

        By “needless rules,” I mean both some of the crazier stories you hear on AAM about weird management, and things that otherwise seem downright strange (e.g. from what I’ve heard, in certain industries, evaluating someone’s outfit down to skirt length during performance reviews). It might just be that I should stay away from certain places where I wouldn’t do well. I’m more of a “substance trumps style” kind of guy. I’ve already made the decision to stay away from really coroporate-corporate places for this very reason.

        1. LK*

          Just bringing it to your attention that you’re writing off huge chunks of the job market, and some of the most lucrative chunks, because you’ve already decided you don’t want to deal with dress codes. And you said guy – as a lady, much envy dress code wise…. just wear a suit, SO EASY, no thought required….. whereas I have to deal with “a shirt that’s appropriate on a lady with a small chest is inappropriate on me” garbage. Why are you letting this be a make or break when you haven’t even had a career job yet and truly don’t know what it’s like?

          I’m sure that we would all love to be “substance trumps style” kind of people but that sounds like a fairly naïve thing to say at this stage. You don’t get to bypass the need to present yourself professionally just because you’ve got a bit more brains than the average joe and a nice personality.

          Just think about the implications of what you’re actually deciding and saying here.

            1. I Am Become the Internet, Destroyer of Time*

              I also realize I’m still growing up, and part of what I was trying to ferret out was how much of this is legitimate thought, and how much is just my own immaturity. I think you’ve helped me realize that a lot of it is immaturity. Thank you.

        2. MWKate*

          I can understand that entering the workforce can seem daunting. Truly though – the stories you read here are generally going to be the exceptions, which is why people are asking for advice because they are in weird and uncharted territory outside the norms of normal practice.

          Just be careful you aren’t pre-judging too harshly. As is mentioned here a lot – interviews are for dual evaluation. Use them as an opportunity to determine if they would be a good fit for you as well. Companies can seem rigid from the outside – but can have really supportive management, good benefits, etc. You could really be selling yourself short if you unilaterally write off organizations without digging deeper.

          As for the stiff part – some of that is learned too. I was nervous my first few interviews, but then I figured, if I pretend to be a different person now – they are hiring that person. I want them to hire me, because I want to be a good fit there. I don’t want them to hire nervous stiff Kate thinking that’s who I’m going to be when I show up for work.

    2. Feathers McGraw*

      Having different selves sounds exhausting. If you were a bit stiff maybe it was because you were trying to not be yourself and couldn’t relax?

      I don’t think you need to not be yourself. Just to be thoughtful about your manner and language. It’s not all or nothing, surely?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Try to bring the two selves closer together, in the ways that you can. You are still you in either environment, there are bound to be things that carry over one to the other. Rather than focusing on what does not carry over, focus on what does carry over.

      Addressing the needless rules, it might help you to think about rules that are needed. Such as what if people just drove on which ever side of the road they felt like driving on? What if the mail person only brought mail when she FELT like it? Or how about if you go to your doc with an urgent matter and he decided today he was canceling his appointments and going out to play golf?
      Some rules do work. Once you see that and you can see the rationale behind the rule it’s easier to go with the flow.
      I think that if you try to see the reasoning behind the rules you will be less stiff, awkward. See, we can’t do something for 8 hours a day that we do not do some version of in real life. It’s not an off/on switch that we flick. I think that if you look at the rules you face just going through your personal life and see the logic for the rule you will be able to carry that habit over to workplace. What kind of rules would you look at? Well, there’s building code rules, driving laws, banking laws, dog laws, food handling codes and so on.

      Just because some rules are bad does not make all of the rules bad. Just because a company has rules does not mean it is a bad company.

  95. Moving*

    How do you deal with coworkers/bosses when you know you’re going to move (and quit your job), but not for several months? My family will be moving this summer for my husband’s graduate school, but I still need to be employed at my current place for 4+ more months. I’m worried about relational and professional ramifications if anyone finds out early, but when is the correct time to tell? Waiting until 2 weeks out seems inconsiderate, given that I know this far ahead, but I’m not sure. Anyone been in a similar boat?

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I think it depends tremendously on how your company has handled these things in the past and what your relationship is with your manager. If they have a habit of forcing people out once they know they are leaving, then you have to wait to tell them until you can afford to be unemployed. If others have given long notice periods and the company has taken advantage of the opportunity for a smooth and well-planned transition, that’s different. Manager-wise, how are things?

      1. Moving*

        Thanks! People have been allowed to work during their notice periods, but nobody’s given more than a couple of weeks’ notice during the couple of years I’ve worked here (so that’s probably a safer plan). My manager and I do share info about our personal lives with each other- when my husband and I visited the potential new city/school, I told her where we were going, but nothing was decided then. If she asks about it, I’m leaning towards saying some variation of “Our plans aren’t solid yet” or “We’re still figuring that out”. I work in higher ed, so we’re really used to turnover of student workers when they graduate, but not so much regular workers.

    2. memoryisram*

      I actually asked Alison this question and @Ashley is correct! It really just depends on your office/supervisor. I may be in this boat soon, and plan to tell my boss up to 2 months in advance. Does your office fire people if they put in their two weeks?

      1. Moving*

        Thanks! No, since I’ve been there (a couple of years), several people have quit and been allowed to work during their notice periods. None have been longer than a couple of weeks, though, so perhaps I should take my cue there. My boss is fairly laid-back and we do share personal info about our lives with each other, but she may tell everyone if I tell her (it’s a smallish office). Congrats on whatever your new circumstances are!

        1. Lison*

          Maybe keep in mind that if everyone does what everyone else did you will never know if longer will be accepted. I’m not saying you have to take the risk yourself but think about your boss and how you think she will react and how bad it would be for you if they did just let you go. Like if you can afford it give 3 weeks and that gives a data point for others in the future. YMMV and I live somewhere where if they have to pay you for your notice period. I have had one coworker ever who was just paid her notice and told to leave at once, the rest of us work out our notice. She was a very challenging individual and I wish I’d had AAM when I was dealing with her.
          Tldnr if you can afford to maybe see how they react but always do what’s best for you

  96. excited new phd student*

    For all of you who have done a PhD (especially in STEM)- some advice? I’m currently in the process of deciding which PhD program to attend (2 visits down, 2 to go). I’m really happy with my options so far– the potential PIs and projects are excellent (I’m in a field that applies directly to the lab, so no rotations), the programs are really top notch, the current grad students are happy, the time to completion is pretty solidly 5 years (program A has all students finishing in 5 except from one lab, program B has only had 1 student in the past decade take 6 years to finish), etc… I’m trying to really think through everything as I make this decision, so if anyone has insight, I’d really appreciate it.

    How is a PhD program affected by a large group of masters students? Program A has about 1/3-1/2 of the incoming cohort as masters students. It’s a research based masters, the students are funded through RA/TA funding (so not a cash-cow masters), and at the visit, the masters and PhD students were all very smart, doing good work, and got along– no real separation there. I do wonder though what it’s like to have the two very distinct tracks– has anyone experienced pros/cons to having essentially a part of the cohort leave after two years?

    How do you weigh the strength of an individual lab vs. the strength of the department as a whole? The lab at program B was exactly what I was looking for research and mentor-wise (made up of two professors, postdocs, and a small group of PhD students, and clearly a well run, tight knit group), but the department seemed a bit disjointed– I’d probably be taking classes and collaborating with other departments and people at other universities. Whereas the lab at program A was newer (very young PI that I think will do well, but doesn’t have a track record yet), but the department had a lot of great people and a clear sense of community.

    Sorry for the novel. This is a hard choice, but I want to make sure I really think things through. I’m also going to be at a local conference with a current student from each group, so I can definitely ask more questions (convenient, right?)

    1. SophieChotek*

      I have a PhD but I don’t think my answer will help because my experience is humanities. My program only accepted 2-3 M.A. students and 2-4 PhD students each year, so in the end the classes were all held together. Honestly we knew who were MA and who were PhD but everyone was treated the same. I heard that really the only difference was that the profs maybe graded the MA students work to less exacting standards? But in terms of individual contributions/insights etc I found the MA students to be on par with PhD students and most all went on to get their PhD anyway…

      1. excited new phd student*

        That’s really helpful! I’m not really concerned about the skill level of the masters students (most have similar backgrounds to the PhD students, and just weren’t feeling the 5 year commitment, or were looking for industry jobs). I guess I’m wondering if it’s hard working alongside people with different requirements, or working on different types of projects? How did your cohort experience change after ~year 2 when the masters students graduated?

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          It’s not hard at all, and the difference in requirements and projects is rarely visible. All the MS students in my department were doing projects just as detailed and complex as any chapter of my thesis – they were just doing less work and graduated sooner.

          It was too bad when some of the MS students graduated and moved on, and at the end it was a small, tight cohort of 7 rather than a big mixed one of 15 or so. But cohorts really didn’t matter for us, because people enter grad school at all different ages and so we all socialized together.

        2. SophieChotek*

          Maybe because it was humanities and all individual dissertation with individual topics and individual research…but working with them never made a difference in terms of requirements. Most projects (research papers, archival research, etc.) was all individual, so we never collaborated on projects, except each “year” had to collaborate to host a symposium.

          A lot of the MA students stayed to get their PhD at the program, so it didn’t really change at all when I was there. And because the program was so small, while we missed the people who left, overall we tended to bond with the students a year ahead/year behind pretty quickly.

    2. AJ*

      Why do you want to a PhD? My background is humanities, not STEM, but my understanding is that if you’re in STEM, unless you want to teach there’s not much benefit in going for additional education beyond a master’s.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Maybe that’s true for humanities. I’ve got a PhD in a STEM field and it’s been very good for my non-academic consulting career, and I know plenty of people with USGS, NOAA, and other government science agencies that have PhDs and a research background. I would maybe argue that a new grad student should do a masters’ and see how it goes before committing to the whole PhD enchilada, but I think you’re off base for STEM fields here.

      2. excited new phd student*

        First and foremost, I really enjoy both research and teaching. I’ve been working in a research position (in a closely related field) for a few years now, and I really love the work. However, it’s pretty clear that I’m not going to be able to go much further on the R&D side with just a BS. I’ve talked a lot with my boss about career progression (she has a masters), and realistically a PhD is necessary to get into the kind of careers I’m interested in, even on the industry side (my boss is also planning on going back for a PhD for the same reason). While a masters would certainly open up more jobs along the way, it’s not likely that you’d be able to progress to the same kind of research (or teaching) leadership option.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Yes, for many specialized fields, if you want to actually do original research and lead a program, you’re doing that with a PhD. Same goes for teaching; a STEM masters’ degree qualifies you mostly for industry/consulting, not teaching at a university level.

      3. Dr. KMnO4*

        That’s definitely not true for my branch of STEM. Most of the people in my program were going for their PhD and many had non-teaching plans after graduating. There are a lot of jobs in industry and some in the government for most branches of STEM. There are research labs (think Argonne, Fermi, CERN) and consulting and all sorts of work.

      4. Gaia*

        I am not a scientist, but I work in STEM and our scientists do not teach but nearly all of them have PhDs because it is expected in our area. I think it can vary in different areas of STEM, however.

    3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      PhD in ecology here.

      The proportion of MS/MA students doesn’t really matter. Everybody in my program and every other one I’ve got direct experience with got along fine, socialized, dated, helped with each others’ research, whatever. Very collegial, no real barrier between the tracks. You’re all in the sh*t together, some are just writing more chapters.

      Departments: I would personally lean slightly towards the Program A department, where there’s a strong sense of community and a lot of great people, because that really helped me get through. That said, you’ll likely be collaborating with other students/PIs at other institutions anyway. This isn’t what I’d make the decision on, though.

      Your relationship with your PI is really the important thing. The relationship between you and your advisor is kind of a messy, weird thing – it’s deeper than a boss-employee relationship, but it’s not a family or friend relationship, and if it falls apart due to diverging priorities on grant funding (ask me how I know), it can feel weirdly personal. Your working relationship with them needs to be friendly and supportive, but professional and with a clear sense of boundaries. I’d make the decision based on this alone, it’s so important.

      I’m a little worried by the two-professor lab, because much like reporting to two different managers, that can lead to being tugged back and forth with contradictory direction and guidance. A single PI is easier to work with. If you go for program B, I’d establish firmly who’s your advisor. Both can mentor you, but you need someone whose word is final, so when a committee member tries to shred your geospatial analysis, you know you have your advisor firmly in your corner and able to help fend them off (TOTALLY HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE REALLY).

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Also, I’d advocate not overthinking it. You’ve got two great choices. Quick, right now, what’s your choice? Whatever bubbles up first, take it.

        1. excited new phd student*

          This is really helpful and reassuring– thank you so much. Also sounds like we’re in similar fields. :) (side note- what happened with the grant funding?)

          I’m very strongly leaning towards program A. On paper, program B has everything that I was looking for (and I would definitely only have one advisor– the other prof just is in the broader lab group), but program A just felt right, primarily because of the strong community (both on the grad student and professor side). People at Program B even mentioned trying to emulate some of the structures at Program A.

          I’m just hesitating because it’s so hard to get a read on a potential advisor (someone who is going to be such an integral part of my life) with only a few interactions. The PI is young and doesn’t have a mentorship track record yet, though she has a great background, great collaborations and field sites set up. She’s definitely a bit introverted, so it’s hard to figure out her personality (she’s not a *warm* person… not cold at all, and very approachable, but not warm), but she gave me great feedback when I presented at a conference, was great at explaining her work at the conference and in my meetings with her, is clearly very organized, and has been open to discussing all sorts of things. Her current grad students seem happy, but obviously there are different needs at the start of a PhD than at the end… I’m over thinking this.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            I would go with what feels right, which sounds like Program A. Don’t worry about the advisor being introverted, because most scientists are a little awkward until we get into the Friday post-colloquium beer, and then we’re just awkward and gregarious. Organized is good, good feedback is fantastic. It sounds like the program you’d want to be in anyway because of the strong community. And take it from another analytical type: don’t second-guess your gut on decisions like this, just because you haven’t analyzed and considered every factor. I chose both my undergrad and grad schools in about 5 minutes apiece and regret neither decision. Go for it.

            The grant issue was pretty simple, really: I wanted to work on extremophile metagenomics because I was really interested in astrobiology, he wanted me to focus on nitrogen fixation in alpine soils, heads butted, nitrogen fixing grants were awarded, ultimatums were laid down, Not Mad got mad and left. Spent a summer working for EPA and decided to switch fields entirely to ecosystem restoration and global change biology, because I was starting to care more about global warming and attendant issues anyway.

            If you’d like, email me with any questions as the process continues, and I’ll be happy to weigh in however I can – it’s astrobiologist at gmail dot com. I’d actually be really interested to know who you’re working with, because I have this odd feeling I know who it might be….

          2. Bye Academia*

            Your post popped up after I applied below…

            You really can’t know how well you will work with a PI until you’ve actually done it (I didn’t realize how dysfunctional my boss really was until the end of year 2 because his dysfunction is subtle). But everything you say about this PI at the program you’re leaning towards sounds promising. You don’t necessarily need someone who is super friendly because work/life boundaries are SO important or you will go crazy. But the fact that she is approachable, organized, and good at giving feedback makes it sound like she will be supportive and help you learn/improve throughout the program. That’s key.

            That said, I do agree that you probably can’t go wrong either way. It sounds like you have some good choices.

            2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              Organized and good at giving feedback are what sold me. My old advisor was scattered to the moon, and just started spluttering angrily when it came time for feedback. Almost all advisor/student relationships get dysfunctional on some level at some point, but that skips two of the major sticking points.

          3. AnonAcademic*

            If you can get any of the grad students of your potential mentors a bit tipsy (or otherwise uninhibited/trusting) and pry about what they dislike most about the PI, do it. Everyone in every lab has complaints but some are a matter of style preference (“they’re too hands on/too unavailable”) and some are a matter of whether a normal seeming person is actually a lizard person (“they will threaten to ruin your career the first time you say no to them about anything”). I can work well with difficult people (prickly, blunt, disorganized, etc.) but not mean people so that’s what I try to suss out.

      2. Dr. BFD, PhD*

        This is SO true. Your faculty adviser will make you – or break you. You should find one who will look out for YOUR best interests, rather than their own. Unfortunately, this is easier said than done (just ask me how I know – I cold-called mine…). Current and former grad students are a great source of intel for this.

    4. Bye Academia*

      I can’t weigh in on the effect of masters students, because there weren’t any on my STEM program. We all got a masters in the process of getting the PhD, but there was no independent masters program.

      In my experience, the lab is more important than the department itself as long as you’re confident you’ll be placed in the lab you want and/or you have a backup. My program also does not do rotations, but you don’t apply for a lab until the end of the first semester. So if the PI you have your heart set on won’t take you for whatever reason you’re screwed. Your PI will have so much power over your experience that it is crucial you work for one who is sane and has a track record of placing their students in good jobs afterwards. The newer PI isn’t necessarily a bad thing because you can get your name on some really fresh, groundbreaking papers that way, but it is a gamble. I personally worked for someone who was mid-career, so he had a track record but was still looking to be active in newer subfields.

      I think the biggest mistake I made, though, was only looking at his track record of publications, and not job placements. A lot of great papers came out of my lab, but most people who graduated from it ended up getting burnt out with academia and leaving for industry before they even applied for academic jobs (me included). Do you want to keep working in industry after you get your degree? Look for labs with alumni in industry. Want to give it a go to be a professor? Look for labs with alumni still in academia. Not only does this improve your networking possibilities when you’re applying for jobs again, but there’s usually a reason people end up where they do.

      That said, while it’s easy to look back with improved clarity, I do think I made the right choices for me at the time I made them and it all worked out. I have a good job now and I’m glad I got the PhD, even if it was a little painful along the way.

    5. Ms. Meow*

      I see so much of my experience in your post.

      I graduated in ’15 with my PhD in an applied STEM field. Our program had lots of master’s students. They didn’t really affect how the PhD program worked. I had master’s students that assisted with my projects and some of them used my work to spin off smaller projects that were more suited to an MS. We were all smushed in together, and there wasn’t any separation between us (except it was sad to see master’s student cohorts leave after two years).

      Also, I worked in a department that was pretty unorganized, but my lab ran like a Swiss watch (partly because I set up a bunch of SOPs). Because of this I earned my PhD in 4 years, where in other groups they would take 6+ years to get out. It was only frustrating when I was collaborating and the other groups just didn’t have it together. Honestly, the saving grace of our department was the administrative assistants. Those wonderful people kept the department running pretty smoothly.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Disorganized labs drive me bonkers. I once requested a dataset from another group at another university, and they literally had to spend all morning figuring out whose computer it was on. They didn’t have a shared drive or central repository. RAGE

    6. Bullwinkle*

      I have an MS, not a PhD in a STEM field, but I cannot emphasize enough the advice about your relationship with your PI. I did my undergrad at a large research university and worked in a few different labs and knew a lot of grad students, and saw a wide range in quality from truly terrible (pulling funding, sexist, bizarre and unreasonable expectations) to meh (hard to get a hold of, just didn’t click) to a few really good ones. That was my top priority in looking at grad schools (along with funding). I have a slightly different take on the two advisers- I actually looked for programs with more than one person doing work that I was interested in, in case one didn’t work out and I had to jump ship. The two programs I ended up choosing between both were offering a co-advising situation, and in both cases a very new faculty member and an older more established one. It ended up working out that that younger one was my primary adviser and I would occasionally drop in on the older one for advice/subject matter expertise and it was a good experience, though I suppose it will depend on the personalities involved. And my final choice between the two programs really came down to a gut feeling- there were some objective differences in money, location etc that helped but I just felt more excited about one. Good luck!

    7. Ultraviolet*

      Given that you apply directly to the lab, I wouldn’t really think much about the merits of the department as a whole. The only aspects of the department that I’d consider are:

      – Do students who need a teaching assistantship because their advisors can’t fund them always get one?
      – What’s the overall passing rate on the qualifying or comprehensive exams? (In some departments this is brutal, but I don’t think that’s common.)

      There are certainly other aspects of the department that will affect you while you’re there, but these are the only ones I would factor into your decision. The lab is by far more important.

      With respect to your programs A and B: something to consider about the relative disjointedness of program B is that your professional network will be bigger, because it includes those other departments and universities. In department A, I would think carefully about the pros and cons of a new PI. Are they so new that you’ll be setting up their lab? Depending on the field, that can take a long time and result in relatively few publications. But it can be very rewarding and helpful in your future career. Also, if you want an academic career, it can be disadvantageous to have an advisor with relatively little clout. It’s easier if your advisor has already done a lot of great work and advised a lot of successful students. That way, when they recommend you for jobs, their word carries a lot of weight. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t join this lab, but do think about it (and maybe ask your undergraduate advisors for opinions on it).

      It would be good to find out what happens to people in either group after they graduate.

  97. Anon T*

    UGH NO BOOOO SALARY HISTORY.

    I’ve been temping at a large corporation for a year and now they’re considering making me perm. I know the basic salary range through the staffing agency…but now the agency is asking for details on the pay at my most recent previous job…which was freelance, in a totally different industry. I already gave them the hourly rate now there are questions about how many hours I worked…in 2015. How on earth is this relevant??? I don’t see how my tutoring wages affect my value as an administrative assistant.

    I’d thought they were super professional and I’m honestly a little surprised to learn this is how they make their comp decisions.

    1. Sibley*

      So, assuming you’re looking for $x per hour or whatever, and you’re pretty sure that’s in line with comp for that position in the area, push back. “As you know, my previous positions were in different industries and positions. I don’t believe that they have much value in determining what appropriate compensation is for this position and industry. Based on my research, I believe that $x is reasonable. What are your thoughts?”

      1. Anon T*

        But does pushback even work with large corporations (that will presumably say “That’s just how we do this”) where I’m not even dealing directly with the hirers, but rather going through a staffing agency?

        1. Been there*

          I’m sorry, that happened to me too when I jumped from one department to another in the same industry. Salary not relevant to the department I’m in now. But the recruiter got all sputtery and confused when I told her that, and kept saying they NEEDED my current salary and salary history. I ended up telling her my then-current salary and told her I honestly couldn’t recall anything earlier than that. Still makes me mad that I caved even though I love my current job.

        2. Anons-y*

          A staffing agency should actually work to your benefit because they will generally get a percentage/commission based on what rate you’re hired at.

  98. DevAssist*

    This is sort of work-related, but has anyone else noticed that MLM businesses seem to be on the rise- especially for young people? I know at least 6 people (in their 20s-30s) that are consultants for everything from CutCo to It Works to LuLaRoe.

    Anyone have any thoughts on this? Also, does anyone have first-hand experience with being successful in one of these businesses? I don’t understand how these people do it.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I hate MLMs with the fire of 1,000 suns, and I don’t think terribly well of people involved in them. I know that’s harsh, but these companies count on you turning your friends into customers (or other salespeople), and that’s gross. I also think they prey on women, particularly military spouses. I definitely think they’re on the rise.

      I don’t really care if people do it, but I don’t want to be solicited, and you’d better not bring it into work.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        I work on a military installation, and it seems like every third car has “THAT CRAY WRAP THING” or Herbalife or whatever stickers all over the back window. Do they all just sell the stuff to each other?

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Yes, and it’s really insidious! These are families with already tight finances who basically end up selling each other overpriced, low-quality goods.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            And it’s especially insidious because it ends up being a full-time job to sell stuff AND recruit, and it almost never results in making real money….but it preys on the hopes of less educated, less qualified people who think they can bring home a real salary.

        2. SophieChotek*

          That’s interesting. One of my friends is totally into an MLM and she lives on a military base…(not trying to clump everyone together) but your comment was interesting. I was so surprised she got into this MLM in the first place but suddenly that is all her Facebook posts are about. sigh.

          1. jamlady*

            Oh yeah, former military spouse here. The one that everyone would ask “why do you have a job?” Or “why don’t you have kids?”

            These are the same people who would then buy all of the MLM stuff from the other military spouses who were desperate to make extra cash (not knowing they actually lose money). Military spouse culture is unique due to the following norms (not everyone, but common):

            – The military does not teach anyone how to be an adult and does basically everything for their men and women. Then these people marry young and have no idea how to manage money. One guy in my husband’s unit bought a $2k paintball gun and then told their NCO he couldn’t afford a haircut because all of his money was gone.
            – Spouses are not encouraged to be educated or independent and there’s constant pressure to have children (again, very young). Having these children (obviously no regrets and they love their kids) means no time for learning job skills and then no job to pay for daycare – then you add on the low pay for a family in the military and the lack of financial understanding and these people get really sucked into schemes where they can “make cash working from home!”
            – Then delployments hit. They’re draining and sad and hard and I don’t know how these people get through them without a solid career to throw themselves into. I was in grad school, worked 2 jobs, and volunteered on the weekends while my husband was gone. I get wanting something to occupy your brain aside from kids, bills, and the house.

            It’s very sad actually.

    2. LK*

      People posting those things on my facebook get instantly unfriended. It’s obnoxious and preachy and uses deceptive language and people don’t actually make that much money and I THOUGHT WE WERE FRIENDS WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE ME YOUR BUSINESS ‘PARTNER’….. I am 27 and these people are convinced they’ve discovered the secret to permanent weight loss (saran wrap around your belly ain’t it, honey) and it just screams gullible to me.

      So yeah. There’s a rise. Probably because in my city you need an annual income of CAD129,000 to afford an average priced home (incl condo or apartment or townhome or detached and including the metro area/surrounding suburbs)……….so people are desperate for an easy moonlighting gig.

      1. DevAssist*

        I completely hate it too, as you and Katie the Fed have said.

        Especially “health” companies that market BS weight-loss supplements and such. I would never, ever join a MLM biz, but I just can’t grasp how these people A) make any actual money and B) how they still have friends that haven’t completely written them off for incessant sales pitches.

    3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      It is on the rise, especially now that the current administration is full of people with MLM backgrounds who are pushing policies friendly to that particular flavor of predatory pyramid scheme. I’ve had to cut people out of my life because they’re constantly pestering me about their new business venture, and it sucks.

    4. mamabear*

      I’m right in that demographic and I unfortunately know lots of people who have gotten swept up in the claims of easy, quick money. Of all those people, exactly 2 have made money. They got in at the beginning of each fad.

      I despise MLMs. I think they prey upon women who are in vulnerable financial situations and/or desperately want to stay at home but can’t. And the same time, it’s hard not to think less of the people who get involved in them. HOW can they not see the false claims? Why are they okay trying to exploit their friend/family circles (no, it’s not the same thing as supporting your friend’s new restaurant, which is the latest “justification” article I’ve seen on Facebook.) I’ve had to unfollow people on Facebook because while I might care about their lives, I do not want my “friends” advertising to me every single day. Don’t even get me started on pseudoscience behind several of these schemes doesn’t help. Your essential oils might smell nice but you are d u m b for literally ingesting them and rubbing them all over your tiny kids. That isn’t regulated, or safe.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        I got a PM from a friend of mine from high school inviting me to join her for a beer sometime. I was like, hey, sure, been a while! Arrived at the bar and discovered she had filled the back room with potential MLM recruits, all looking just desperately awkward and disappointed. I said, “I’d love to have a beer and catch up, but I’m not going to be bait-and-switched,” and walked out.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Oh God, this happened to me with a relative when I was in California. I hadn’t seen her in ages, and she was going to be in the area for a social thing, and we made arrangements to meet at the deli where I worked for lunch. I was so excited to see her! I made her a sandwich, sat down with her, asked her what she was doing, and then had to listen to a forty-five minute pitch for melaleuca oil. :(

    5. TMA*

      I think MLMs can work for some people. Some of the products are actually really great. The quality of MLMs (both the product and the management) vary widely, so people need to due diligence if they want to be involved either as a distributor or as a customer. There seems to be a lot of judgement surrounding MLM distributors, and I think a lot of it is quite unkind.

      I signed up to be a consultant for one because I genuinely loved the products. I also work full-time. However, the company itself was very unorganized, and I didn’t want to put effort into something that I could clearly see what completely mismanaged.

      My sis-in-law is a distributor for another MLM, and she’s been doing really well. I’ve noticed that in order to be really successful, it takes A LOT of work. But she has been successful because she puts in the work, and she has the contacts that are interested in the product she is selling. She was even able to replace her part time RN income and completely work from home, which is an ideal situation for her and her family.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        The judgment surrounding MLM distributors arises from the fact that they’re fundamentally exploitative of most people who get involved with them, and most people end up losing money on it. A few people who get in early and collect lots of commissions from their recruits do pretty well, the folks at the top of the pyramid rake it in, and the base of the pyramid ends up barely breaking even. So I find the business model revolting.

        Then, when you consider what “a lot of work” entails, it basically means treating your entire family, neighborhood, and social network like marks at a carney, and there’s a ton of social fallout and resentment that results.

        1. TMA*

          Sure, I understand people’s disdain on the business model. I trust that they then are expressing their disdain by not supporting those businesses. However, I think the disdain for the distributors (those who you say are being exploited) should be rethought. I think it is often unnecessarily unkind.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            It’s easy to get frustrated at the hard sell, and I think that motivates much of the disdain. Also, I think poor judgment is inherently unattractive.

      2. Emilia Bedelia*

        Yeah, I am not really familiar with how the business itself runs… but I can tell you I love my Cutco knives.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          The only one I really want to give any money to is Avon–I like the products a lot but because it’s a goddamn MLM instead of regular retail (or even online), I can’t find a sales rep who sticks with it for any length of time. Also, they inundate me with catalogs–I can’t afford to buy every week, dammit.

    6. Aurion*

      I have a couple of Facebook friends who are into MLMs, but (surprisingly?) they haven’t tapped me so I haven’t shut them down, though I roll my eyes a lot.

      There’s a lot of rhetoric about “ENTREPRENEURS!!” and “traditional businesses just line the pockets of some super rich CEO! The money these ENTREPRENEURS make go directly into Johnny’s soccer camp!” never mind the fact that there’s lots of people in between the point of sale and said CEO.

      I loathe MLMs.

    7. Whats In A Name*

      I have one friend who is involved in MLM who works part-time hours; about 20 per week from home, makes good money and has been doing so for about 11 years now. She is in a tennis league and just last week someone she has been playing with for a few years said “I didn’t know you were an XX rep!” to her just last week.

      I think she is in the MINORITY for sure.

      Almost everyone else I know who is MLM fills their FB feed with product pushes and basically makes me feel like I am betraying them and not supporting their ‘career’ when I don’t purchase from them or purchase from one of my other 24 friends selling the same product. I mean COME ON.

    8. Venus Supreme*

      Ughh. I hate when Facebook friends fall into the cult. Literally just this past week I had a FB friend I met ONCE include me on a “weekly trial” for some fitness beachbody thing. She asked me a few questions beforehand, one of them being “what didn’t work for you in your journey to weight loss?” and I replied, “anything I need to spend money on (weight watchers, etc) because I don’t want to shell out money for something that is a lifestyle change.”

      She’s still trying to sell me products after I explicitly told her I’m not interested. I don’t know if this is the MLM speaking or if she’s naturally pushy? Homegirl is about to get deleted…

    9. ali*

      I know several successful LulaRoe consultants. One has become so successful that since just last summer when she started, her husband was able to quit his job and work full time with her doing LLR stuff. BUT, the people I know (other than this one anomaly) all have husbands who are the primary breadwinner in their family. I don’t know anyone who is unmarried who has been able to do it as their full time job and be able to live on it.

      The people I know who are successful push it All. The. Time. There isn’t a single Facebook post that doesn’t somehow include their business. They’ve managed to somehow find the balance between being friendly and being pushy and work it well.

    10. JustaTech*

      I have a childhood friend who has done several of these (Pampered Chef and Beachbody/Shakeology) and thankfully she made a Facebook “page” for it so I was able to block just that but still see her normal-people posts.
      I have one friend who did Mary Kay for a little bit and it was OK. I think it was her second side gig, she did a ton of research and set hard limits on how much money she was willing to put in. That was fine, but the other MK people, a few levels up, were big on the hard sell to become “consultants” and gave some horrifyingly illegal tax advice. (No, you cannot claim your entire rent as a business expense if you live in a studio and sell one lipstick a week.)

    11. AnonAcademic*

      I know a couple who have managed to make a living off an MLM for the last few years, supposedly earning in the low 6 figures combined. I find it really distasteful on a lot of levels but also fascinating. It seems to work for them because they are willing to work basically 24/7 in exchange for the location flexibility of the job. They are constantly posting about being in trainings/recruiting sessions at 7 AM on Saturdays or texting their consultants literally at all hours, every single day. I think if their earnings were translated into an hourly wage they would make very little honestly. But they do travel constantly, mostly to be paraded across stages as “top income earners” at company events to motivate new recruits. They have managed to create sales personas that are pretty close to their actual personalities – the husband is very charismatic, a good public speaker, and a high energy type of person, who is constantly working social media with videos, pictures, etc. and selling the supposed “lifestyle” the MLM affords them. Oh and this is petty but it’s a weight loss MLM and he got really skinny for like a year but 2 years in has gained at least half the weight back and I KNEW it was gonna happen and felt a bit of schadenfreude over it.

    12. Chaordic One*

      I was recently approached by the guy who runs the auto repair shop where I have my car serviced. (I really would think that he already makes enough money running the auto shop.) It was something that sold water filters, among things. Maybe it was Amway. I don’t remember. Anyway, part of his spiel involved him showing me his paychecks from the MLM company, which I thought was very weird. I guess it was supposed to motivate me. I wonder if those checks were even real. I kind of think they were fake.

      In the past I’ve bought products from Avon. I thought they were reasonably priced, good products. Years ago when I lived in California I attended a Tupperware Party put on by a drag queen. She was hilarious and I bought several items. She later went on to have a standup act and appears in bars and clubs in the L.A. area.

  99. AJ*

    In need of a little encouragement. Last June I left a job that I loved for a new one because the commute was wearing me out (60-mile drive each way; I had lived in that town but relocated when I got married). My background is in education and nonprofits, and it took a year and a half of job searching before I was offered a position. I thought the new job would be a good fit, but it turns out the nature of the job is quite different than how it was described in the interview process. The hours are longer than I expected, and while I’m capable of doing the job the nature of the responsibilities leave me stressed out all the time, to the point of having panic attacks at work. Also, my boss and I don’t get along well, in terms of both management style and personality. She has been the direct cause of several of my panic attacks. I started looking for a new position back in December, and had three interviews in January. One of them actually resulted in an offer, which after much deliberation I decided to turn down because it wasn’t a great move in terms of my long term career. A month later, I haven’t had any more interviews or even seen jobs worth applying for. I’ve done some networking in addition to watching the job boards, but it seems like hiring is slow right now. I’m trying to stay positive, since I know I’ll be in my current job for awhile yet, but it’s hard. I end each work day discouraged and exhausted. Anyone have any advice for how to improve my attitude? I know it’s the only thing I can really control right now.

    1. Hilorious*

      I’m kind of type A, and I’ve found that setting times where I’m allowed to wallow/complain/feel bad, as well as times where I’m proactively working toward a solution, has been helpful.

      For example, set aside a day or two where you give yourself permission to be frustrated and sad and upset. Your feelings are valid, and bottling them up in order to maintain a sunny disposition won’t help your cause. My preferred method here involves a mug brownie, Parks and Rec, and crying.

      Then, the rest of the time, focus on actions. Even if it’s a small action (setting up a new email alert for a different job website, talking to a former boss about any connections you might have, setting up an informational interview, doing some interview prep with a friend who does hiring), try to accomplish at least one thing per day.

      Also, if you have an Employee Assistance Plan or something similar, I encourage you to reach out to them about your stress levels to identify any options.

      So sorry you’re going through this! Hang in there!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Make sure you are helping yourself with good foods, plenty of water, exercise when possible and rest. Decide that good self care is going to be your motto until things change on the job front.
      It’s times like this I often think how unfair life is, we HAVE to create our own good things. Bad things just fall down from the sky on us. If we want good things happening we have to work to build that. Call up some friends have a weekly or monthly card night. If you are in a relationship set aside certain nights of the week/month as date nights. Create good stuff for yourself.

  100. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I was told by my boss during a 1-on-1 meeting 5 weeks ago to stop taking notes on my laptop, as it could seem I look disengaged in a meeting (even if I’m not).

    Fast-forward to today: I took no notes on the laptop, smiled, nodded. Then boss asked me specifics and I barely retained anything and he called me out on it. I mentioned I take notes best/retain the most with a laptop.

    I know I should’ve retained more, but I’ve taken notes for 16 years by laptop, I have bad handwriting, I’m a kinesthetic learner, and I literally can’t retain anything unless I type it.

    What would you do? I’m equal parts annoyed and mortified at myself….

    1. katamia*

      How much do you look at the screen versus looking at other people when you type? Could you practice typing without looking at the screen/while smiling and nodding?

    3. Amber T*

      Are your 1-1s a regular thing? Next time you meet with your boss (and I’d request a 1-1 before your next meeting if one isn’t scheduled already), I’d tell him that you understand where she’s coming from, but you’re most productive and useful if you take notes on your laptop. If it’s available, I’d even bring your notes (print out or laptop) from past meetings to show you’re fully paying attention and have the proof.

      And ask, how can you look more engaged while using your laptop? Do you never look away from your screen? Could you try engaging more (asking relevant questions, speaking up more) during the meetings?

    4. caledonia*

      Shorter notes on the laptop (words not sentences), practising taking notes by hand, look at being more engaging whilst taking notes – eye contact, actively listening, repeating info to confirm etc.

    5. JustaTech*

      Take notes on a tablet so the laptop screen isn’t blocking your face? (I know tablets aren’t cheap, but if you could borrow one to try it out it might be worth it.)

    6. BRR*

      I would try to take notes by hand for a little bit. I recognize everybody is different but there are a lot of studies that say taking notes by hand helps retention. Would it work to take notes by hand then type then later? I know that’s a time suck but sometimes you just have to go with what will work.

      If that doesn’t work, talk to your manager and say you tried and it’s not working. Have some suggestions on how to seem engaged. I’m really bothered when people bring laptops to meetings but that’s because I know they’re not just taking notes. I would suggest keeping your laptop off to the side instead of right in front of you and taking as minimal of notes as possible so you’re not on your laptop long.

      1. Observer*

        Every single study I’ve seen on the matter is actually seriously flawed. And NONE of them take into account people who have really bad handwriting. These people should NOT take notes by hand – it makes it extremely hard to actually listen to what is going on because it takes so much brain power. That’s hard for normal people to understand, but it’s a real thing.

        In short, taking notes by hand will almost certainly NOT work.

    7. Feathers McGraw*

      I might be too late but in case you see this:

      First off, you have my sympathies as I have lousy handwriting and writing by hand stresses me out. However I don’t have a laptop at work so I just write notes by hand and type them up later. Are you typing in the meeting because you absolutely have to (eg if you write by hand you can’t understand it later, you don’t have time to type it up or etc) or because it’s just not occurred to you to try uncoupling things and do the typing/learning part afterwards?

      Could you compromise by telling your boss you won’t type in the meeting but that you’ll need to go away and type it up before asked to repeat specifics back to them? Would it help if they understood that you can not type, or you can talk specifics at the time, but they’ll have to pick one as you can’t do both?

      Also, with respect, is it possible you’re actually telling yourself a story about yourself that isn’t entirely true? Kinaesthetic learning doesn’t necessarily mean having to type. I’m sure you don’t type all your conversations outside work – does that mean you forget everything anyone says to you? Is it possible that you’re getting in your own way by telling yourself that when at work you can only remember things if you type them? Plus, it sounds like you’re muddling two things. Learning styles apply to how you learn new skills, but you seem to be talking about retaining information in a meeting, not a training session. Are you being trained or just given updates, project specifics, etc?

    8. Observer*

      If you can afford to, get a larger tablet, lay it flat and use the on screen keyboard. It’s not as good as a real keyboard, but it works better than handwriting for people with poor handwriting. Also, learn to take really short notes – NOT dictation style. This way you are looking at people more than you are looking at the tablet.

      And let your boss know what you are doing and why.

  101. Katie the Fed*

    So this is somewhat job related –

    Should you tell a contractor you were considering hiring to do work at your home why you didn’t go with them?

    I just had a really strange experience. I was getting bids on a huge (expensive) remodeling project and one of the designers really irked me. After several meetings I found him aggressive and pushy and felt like I wouldn’t be able to work with him. I told him that I was going with another company because I felt like our communication styles didn’t work well, and he took it…badly. Replied that he was widely recognized as a great communicator and asked me to explain what I was talking in exchange for all the time he’d put into the bid.

    I don’t really feel like I owe him more reasons – it seems like nothing good will come of it. Thoughts? Is this normal? Should I not have given him an explanation at all?

    1. animaniactoo*

      It was good that you gave him an explanation. He is not normal, and I would not respond further unless you felt like saying “The kind of pushback that you have exhibited here is an example of what I am talking about. Putting in time bidding on projects and losing out on some of them is a standard part of design/construction work, [and I don’t owe you a deeper explanation for the fact that doing a basic component of your job – no matter how hard you worked at it – did not result in winning this bid]. However others may regard you, this was my feeling and I am going with a contractor who I feel I will work better with. Best of luck to you.”

      [okay, don’t really say this part…]

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      With this type of thing, I ask myself whether the person would want my honest feedback and find it helpful. It doesn’t sound like he’s interested in hearing feedback about his communication style. It also sounds like he feels his approach is working for him and that he’s doing well. The approach doesn’t work for you? Fair enough – it’s not a match. I’d walk away.

      This would be terrible advice for an employee or for a contractor you were actually working with.

    3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      You don’t owe him even as much of an explanation as you provided, and he’s acting the fool. Any contractor will get turned down after putting time into bids, that’s part of the cost of doing business for them.

      “I’ve picked another company I’d like to work with, but I appreciate your bid.”

    4. Graciosa*

      You really don’t owe him anything further. For a contractor to have a problem not getting everything he bids on shows that he’s pretty out of touch. Giving him feedback would have been a kindness if he learned from it, but he didn’t – not your fault.

      I would be tempted to close with “The fact that you’re continuing to argue with me is explanation enough.”

    5. Confused Publisher*

      I don’t think you need to engage further. If he’s this much hard work now, he’s simply going to continue to find other reasons why you ‘owe’ him this or that or something else. It’s professional, not personal… and he’s conflating the two in a very unappealing manner.

    6. really*

      Probably shouldn’t have said anything at all. No contractor gets every job the go for and for lots of different reasons. No, don’t reply to him. I suspect he’s just going to argue with you and it’s not going to make a difference except to solidify your decision.

    7. BRR*

      I would have probably left it at “Thanks but I’ve decided to go with another designer.” And if they asked for feedback then decide if you want to. I know the best answer is to just leave but part of me would love for you to reply “yup you just confirmed my reasoning.”

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Noooo. This is not normal.

      A brief explanation is an act of kindness, but not necessary.

      He may be a great communicator but his listening skills suck. I would say, that I have explained it as clearly as I can and I have nothing further to add. I would put him on my “never call again” list.

      The only way I would even consider an exception to this is if I have an on-going business relationship with a contractor. My friend helps me with my house. We frequently say to each other “Are you good with this or that?” The frequent check ins are to preserve the friendship. At one point I needed to get my furnace replaced. I told my friend that I preferred that my oil company did the work. I explained that I had a 20 plus year relationship with this company and in case of emergency they would be the repair people I would call. (Later I found out my friend was RELIEVED not to have to install that furnace.)
      Now this is a case of I have TWO long term business relationships and I am balancing those relationships. I had the conversation with my friend before I took any action, so he would know what to expect and my thinking behind my choice. Then I explained to my oil company that my friend would be fixing the floor, helping randomly with wiring and what not so they knew what to expect. This helped additionally because there was work they would not do, so they knew to tell my friend what was needed. Everyone got along fine and the project went great.

      No, for a just a bid, I would not expect to have to work that hard at a relationship that does not exist. Existing business relationships, yes, work harder. If you have long term decades old relationships work even harder to keep the lines of communication open. I my story here I did not want to lose either business relationship from a misunderstanding that could have been prevented. I worked my tail off. And it was worth it. When the project was done we all sat down and had coffee together and everyone was smiling at the success.

  102. Ashie*

    I’m working from home while the office is under construction, and I’ve been hating it. My desk is small and I’m crammed in my gloomy sewing room/closet.

    But the weather’s been beautiful so this week I brought my computer into the backyard and suddenly it’s so much better! Fresh air! Sunshine! Wildlife! It inspired me to rearrange my closet office so now my little desk faces the window. It’s still cramped but as I write this I’m watching birds hop around in my front hedges and my whole outlook has improved. Why didn’t I do this ages ago??!

  103. Bena*

    Hey all! Looking for some guidance as I’m phasing out of my role.

    I’ve been accepted to law school for the fall (at all of my top choices – yay!), and will be taking the summer off of everything to travel. I put in my notice at my super busy and stressful nonprofit job in early February, because I wanted to wait until I could be comfortable leaving in two weeks to do so (I’ve never seen how they handle long notice periods, so I thought I would feel it out) but let them know that I could stay on until the end of April if they could be flexible regarding school visits, and they enthusiastically agreed. I planned and got approval to take a full week in March to visit two schools, but because i’ve unexpectedly been accepted to more schools I realized that I definitely, definitely am going to need more time that my job won’t be able to provide me (i’ll be out of PTO, we’re incredibly busy) to do visits. There are very tight timelines between when I’ll receive scholarship offers, and when deposits are due for schools between early April and May 1st, and I have to be completely ready, have visited every school and know my thought process before all that info comes my way. Now i’m concerned that I’ll need to leave before my notice period is up in order to do this and fully prepare for my future. Help!! How should I approach this with my boss?

  104. Victoria*

    I’m in a situation thats somewhat reminiscent of Marshall in ‘How I Met Your Mother’. For those who don’t know/remember, he was passionate about becoming an environmental lawyer, but later found it didn’t pay enough to support a family so had to go do a soul-selling corporate job. (In the magical land of TV sitcoms, where people were just throwing high-paying jobs at a newly-minted lawyer…but I digress.)

    Anyway, I’m in my final semester for a degree which (when I started) I had hoped to get into a field that has a lot of potential to do good…but those roles don’t pay so well (think NGOs or public sector). I’ve realised that from the start, and wasn’t that bothered. But surrounded by people whose ambition is to go into the corporate sector (where potential pay is many times higher), it’s hard to not be tempted. It’s actually easy to justify that the work in the corporate world is also important…but it’s not what I started down this path to do.

    For how much would you be willing to sell your soul? (Okay that’s being over dramatic, but humour me here…)

    1. MommaTRex*

      It depends. For me the difference would be “does the field I love pay enough”? Enough so that you aren’t worried about day-t0-day expenses and aren’t living next-paycheck-to-next-paycheck. If I’m getting by with the essentials and a few extras, my soul is not for sale. Life is too awesome to be unhappy with your work.

      On the other hand, if I am constantly worried about how I’m going to pay the rent and eat, that’s a level of unhappiness that is also killing my soul. But then I would still want more than just the basics to sell it!

      1. jamlady*

        I was in that “how do I pay rent and eat” situation for the first few years after my BA and working on my MA through them. It was horrible. I ended up making it all pay off and now I make great money (especially in the world of resource management)… But almost everyone I worked with during those first few years either couldn’t afford to stick it out (mentally, financially, etc.) or just were never able to move their way out if it. I’m the only one left. It’s very risky and scary and draining. Plus, yeah, I’m not making 6 figures anytime soon (or ever).

    2. Anxa*

      I don’t think pay is much of an issue, but I’d ‘switch sides’ in a heartbeat for full-time hours and benefits. My current pay is abysmal, I’m struggling to find a second part-time job and afraid to invest even a small amount to start my own business and am most definitely below the poverty line. I live better than that, though, because my SO is making a living wage (student loans not withstanding).

      I majored in biology and never expected to be rich, but I was foolish and thought finding a 25K+ job a year would be manageable, even though I was a mediocre student.

      I’m not so much worried about soul-crushing anymore. Poverty is pretty soul-crushing. Avoiding poverty only because your family is helping you stay afloat is still soul-crushing. I don’t even recognize the person I used to be before I was so broke all of the time.

    3. Ms. Meow*

      I always wanted to be a teacher, but my mom talked me out of it because of the stress and low pay. Fast forward 10 years: I have a PhD in a STEM field working a job where I make REALLY good money (about 2.5 times what my teacher boyfriend makes plus bonuses). The job is a little soul-sucking, but what helps me get through is that I tutor on the side. Yeah, I get paid way less than I make in my day job, but it’s so satisfying to help kids understand material and gain the confidence needed in math and science courses. I feel like I have a good balance right now. Maybe you can take a corporate job and volunteer with a non-profit in the field you really have a passion for?

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        I teach seminars at a local science museum to scratch that itch. They’re desperate for volunteers to lead programs for members, and I get basically total freedom to teach what I want. It’s been super satisfying and keeps me engaged with the stuff I love about my field, not just the nuts and bolts.

      3. Anxa*

        My mom definitely had a lot of negative comments about teaching, and guess what?

        I ended up teaching-adjacent. But I didn’t major in education, got my degree in a STEM field, and now make a fraction of what the union teachers make. Yes, I have a third of the stress and work, but I make far less than a third of what I would have been working if I started teaching at 25.

    4. Just Jess*

      It doesn’t have to be black or white. I love my chosen career path, am working projects and jobs that I don’t like, and rarely get to directly service others in a way that makes me happy. It’s not all going to be good and that doesn’t mean it’s soul crushing.

      I have a little dream of someday completely focusing on directly servicing others through my passion. Careers are long enough to try lots of things.

    5. Overeducated*

      My view on this totally changed when I had a kid. I had to make an additional $18,000 year after taxes to pay for day care, so a job paying $30k was no longer realistic. I also weighed regular hours and lack of travel/overtime much more heavily. So I went from doing a lot of fun field, academic, and non profit work to mostly less fun, more bureaucratic work at a desk, and sometimes I feel really sad about my day to day job. But my salary doubled, and I leave work between 4 and 5 every day, and once in a while I do get to still go out and do the fun stuff.

      I am not sure what the best long term compromise is for me but that’s how I made the choice.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      (In the magical land of TV sitcoms, where people were just throwing high-paying jobs at a newly-minted lawyer…but I digress.)

      Ha! Yeah, really. :P

      Well it would depend a lot on what the job offered, and how far away it was from what I wanted to do. If I could retain some elements of the dream, or if the job had things I could learn that would help me achieve that dream, I might be tempted to go ahead and take it.

      Also, it would depend on what was going on in my life at the time. If I had something I needed badly (like a certain amount of money) and the job could provide it, that would help me make my decision. Or if it weren’t conducive to my lifestyle right now.

      A crazy example: let’s say I wanted to be an exotic animal keeper. And I suddenly got a chance to be a panda nanny for a year in China, a job that could open doors when I got back (don’t laugh; it’s a real job!). I’m single and have no kids or pets. If I were renting and I spoke Chinese, I could probably handle chucking a lease and going for it. If I had a family, it would be a no-go. I’d have to get my panda nanny experience some other way.

      I’m going through this now–I don’t want to get too far away from what I was doing at Exjob, but I can’t afford to be too picky this round of unemployment, because I won’t get all those nice generous tiers of UI payments I got last time. :P

    7. LK*

      BSC in enviro sci. Wanted to be a park ranger. Govt cut almost every park ranger position while I was doing my degree. Gaps were filled by non profits paying 60% of the previous salary and all positions were contract, not permanent. No benefits. I did it for 2 years. living below the poverty line and constantly hustling for work sucks even if the work itself was amazing (I got to work in national parks!) (……for $13.50/hour. Must have relevant degree.) (UGH).

      I did a 6-month legal support program and now I work for make roughly double that and oh my GOD the mental health benefits of not living below the poverty line are AMAZING.

      You can always do your soul-filling gig as a side hustle. I volunteered in enviro education for awhile. It’s not necessarily an either/or situation.

    8. Anon for this*

      I’ve spent most of my career in NGOs, then got my MBA. I love my company and the mission, but my department is a shitshow and it’s getting worse. I’ve explored internal transfers, but nothing has worked out. So I’ve been thinking about jumping ship to the private sector a lot lately. I actually have a very specific “sell out” number… it’s basically a little more than double my current salary. It’s definitely not out of the question at the right company, and it would let me finish paying off my loans and save up a down payment within ~4 years.

      But I still haven’t been able to convince myself to make the leap, because even though I truly think it’s the most rationale plan, I’m too emotionally attached to my current work. And frankly, the current political climate is making it even harder for me to leave; I want to stay and fight.

  105. Casper Lives*

    I could use some advice, especially from lawyers. I messed up at work, but mostly, I need to know if I should leave my job.

    I’m back at work today after taking the bar this week. I work at a small firm. It’s my first time, and everyone in the office has been generally supportive and understanding. But today the female partner went to our office manager’s open door (office right next to mine) tell her how I and a paralegal had messed up paperwork, another paralegal caught it, it would have cost the client money and was unacceptable, she questioned our handling of the case in total, and said that she would speak to us herself but she had a client. Everyone keeps their doors open here so anyone in this hallway who wasn’t with a client heard.

    I can’t go into details, but the case isn’t messed up overall and I’m glad the paralegal caught something that might save the client money. I’m angry at the way the partner handled it. When the office manager spoke to me soon after, I explained the situation. But I messed up here: I said that maybe I should respond loudly like the partner as everyone heard her (OM said, “Woah, please don’t”), and told her “I’m a fan of praise in public, criticize in private” (OM “she was yelling at me, not you” – not true, but at least she acknowledged the partner was yelling).

    I know the real issue is I’m frustrated with the partner. She changes her standards, never praises good work, is difficult to please, insults employees to their faces, and so on. I’ve got a lot of pent up frustration. I don’t know what to do. I feel I’ve got to wait for the bar results, then network my butt off in my small practice field. I’m not sure if I should apologize to the poor OM.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Yes, you should apologize to the OM, who has no control over the partner, and got the brunt of *both of you*.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      I don’t think you need to quit. Mistakes happen, and you owned up to it. The partner didn’t handle it well, but sometimes you do have to know what battles to pick. I would just apologize to the OM.

      1. Casper Lives*

        I’m planning on apologizing. She’s a good OM and a great person, so it was really uncalled for.

        I’m thinking of quitting because of the way the partner treats people, not the mistake. It was a small mistake and will be resolved with no problems. Everyone walks on eggshells around her. I’d call it a negative atmosphere. I can’t afford to quit without another job lined up so it’s a bit moot.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          From what I hear of law firms, there are plenty of people like her. I wouldn’t like it either, but it might be part of the world you work in.

          1. Casper Lives*

            It’s not uncommon, according to my friends and classmates. I wonder if I would mind as much if I had employer health insurance.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            Agreed, this is pretty normal from what I am hearing about law firms. There is always that One.

            I think deal with one stresser at a time. Decide to postpone dealing with work until you get through your exam. Just focus on the exam. Once that is done then see what you think about your job.

    3. Delta Delta*

      Network now. Make friends in your practice area and/or geographic area now. Go to local bar events, volunteer, start a law blog, publish, whatever you can to get out. Get away from this evil toxic partner as fast as possible. Your working life will not get any easier.

      Also, make sure to apologize to OM.

      Signed,
      Lawyer who stuck it out for far to long with an evil toxic partner and now would rather be unemployed than work for Cruella deBroomstick, Esq. one second longer.

      1. Casper Lives*

        Thanks for the good, specific advice! I’ve got time to breathe now. I apologized and she accepted it gracefully (no surprise there!). I dream of a job with a boss/partner without a mercurial temper.

  106. Ethan*

    To include a side gig (in this case, coaching weekend crossfit classes) that’s completely out of my industry on a resume: yea or nay?

    I’m starting to clean up the old resume. I like my job (been here five years), but in this current political climate, I might not have it for another year.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I would recommend keeping a “master” résumé that has all your stuff but that you never send out as-is to any places you’re applying to.

      Then, when you decide to apply to a place, you make a copy of that “master” résumé and start chopping out things you think are irrelevant.

      In general, I would say if something is completely irrelevant to your industry, you generally want to leave it out. That said, I did one time apply to (and work at) a company that was interested in hiring people who had outside athletic interests (yoga, running, kayaking, whatever) that had zero to do with what the company actually did—for them it was more of a culture fit thing, for better or worse. If you applied to this company (and I’m sure it’s not unique or typical), they would definitely view the coaching weekend crossfit classes as a bonus.

      1. DevAssist*

        I agree with Anonymous Educator!

        Keep a document that has ALL your work, volunteer, and professional development experiences and certifications, etc. This way, you can tailor your resume to different fields that may interest you.

        If you’re keeping a general resume, I wouldn’t include your side gig unless it aligned with the other experience you list.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      No, if it’s not relevant to the position, I’d leave it off.

  107. memoryisram*

    My non-profit gig (on the side, I might add) has really become a problem. I’m kind of burned out so I want to make sure that a neutral third-party, all of you delightful people, doesn’t think I’m overreacting.

    I am the volunteer executive director of a teapot company. The creative lead, Fergus, is extremely difficult and prone to outbursts. The board is very small, and while we have volunteers/contract staff for big projects, the day-to-day is run by us, mostly (I’d say a solid 90%) by me. We are currently having a major issue with people not pulling their weight.

    Short backstory: Prior to my coming to the organization, they were barely treading water. Now, I’m pleased to say, we’re at least functional and are able to look a little into the future.

    We recently had a massive fundraiser that I planned and coordinated almost entirely on my own. It went okay, not as successful as we would have hoped, but not bad. A few days later we had a meeting and Fergus (who was frustrated about other things) took this all out on me, berating me that we aren’t doing enough and that he hasn’t seen any improvement since I started, and so on.

    Obviously, I was defensive, and very, very hurt. I brought this to the attention of the board and it was swept under the rug. I addressed this with Fergus and the reply was lackluster and a little passive aggressive – he did not at any point admit he acted inappropriately. This is not the first time Fergus has lashed out at me, but I am pretty determined it’s the last.

    Reading some old advise of Alison’s (I clicked the Random Post button and it was pretty dead on to this situation) and if the higher ups/management don’t want to do anything about the issue, you have to decide if you can live with it. And I think I’ve decided I can’t. Our company operates a production schedule that has an easy out at the end of it, and I intend to inform the board that I’m resigning at the end of that time (and due to my position, I will be creating SOPs, contact lists, and so on).

    FWIW, I had been pondering resigning BEFORE this meeting, so it’s not totally reactionary. The only con that I can see is missing it, missing running an organization, since my day job is very much NOT managerial, but that argument is easily shrugged off by the fact that there is a very good chance I’m going to move/change day jobs in the next year.

    Anyway, sorry this is so long. I’d be curious to any thoughts you guys have on this. Thanks so much.

    1. animaniactoo*

      I think that if they feel that Fergus is important enough not to rock the boat with him, they should not be surprised when other people who are doing massive work as a volunteer choose not to continue to subject themselves to him, and be prepared to find new people or work on the things you were doing themselves.

    2. SophieChotek*

      I think you are right on: will your missing the organization outweigh dealing with Fergus.
      ~ When you miss it, will you somehow nostalgically think of Fergus and his “antics”?
      ~ is there a different organization you support that you could try instead? Maybe at different level or with less responsibility.

      Good of you to plan to leave SOP and Contacts, etc. That leaves them with what they need.

      I think if you do resign you also need to have planned/decide what you are willing to do if the board/others come back begging for a little help/assistance, etc. It’s all volunteer, so you suddenly can’t be asking for pay at a consultant rate, but what will you answer be? You don’t want to burn bridges (presumably) but…

      Best of luck. Send an update.

      1. memoryisram*

        If I’m in town, I will happily work with them again, but I can’t do this anymore how it is – and even though I do care very much about the organization, there is only so much one can do to change culture. The Fergus situation aside, I think it’s possible my tenure with this group has run it’s course.

        I am more than a little nervous at how Fergus will react to this, but it is what it is.

        1. SophieChotek*

          Seems like Fergus can now do whatever he wants…in his mind its his chance to prove he could do it better…?
          I agree, if Board isn’t going to help, there’s not much you can do to change culture.

        2. Amber T*

          This is slightly (more than slightly) passive aggressive, so I don’t necessarily advocate for you doing this, but evil fantasy in my head says this: if/when he confronts you about resigning, you’d say something like “You made it clear that my work wasn’t up to your standards, so I’m removing myself with the hope that someone else will better fit your idea of what the role should be.” You’re not saying that you weren’t prepared for the role or weren’t good enough, you just didn’t reach his expectations, which don’t seem fair.

          2. memoryisram*

            I WOULD LOVE TO DO THIS. But clearer heads will prevail, as per usual haha. Thank you all for you kind words – when the board basically said “oh well!” I felt like maybe I was being ridiculous, but the more I discuss this with people outside of the situation, the more it reinforces my feelings of being taken advantage of.
            Because I do a large chunk of the work, and unfortunately/fortunately know of at least one person who will leave with me, if not two, I’m thinking this will force them to reassess their priorities as an organization. Not that I’m saying I’m irrepressible by any means, may people have this skill set, but not many people are willing to do it for free.

            1. SophieChotek*

              yes for free! right on. Do what is right for you. I think you’ve paid your due to the organization.

            2. Artemesia*

              Thus an immediately and abrupt departure will have the most positive impact on the long term health of the organization. Don’t worry about making it easy for them (and Fergus) Just leave.

        3. Artemesia*

          I would leave more abruptly — leave them with documentation but I would not delay and work to make this seamless since they have chosen not to support you. I don’t do punching bag. I’d want them to experience real consequences of supporting inept management.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      There should be a section in your by-laws that talks about what is expected out of a board member and what to do if behavior does not match the guidelines. (Removal of said board member.)
      Where is the board president in all this?

      I will say this, in many orgs there is usually only one or two people doing all the work. So that part is fairly normal. Fergus’ only response to you should be “thank you for doing that.”

  108. Not Karen*

    Could anyone here speak to the differences in consulting vs. industry? I’d be especially interested if you’re industry experience is nonprofit. My therapist suggested I might like consulting more because the projects are short term and varied.

    A couple specific points of interest:
    1) salary – according to some reports consulting pays a lot more
    2) work hours – I’m not interested in a position where >40 hours per week is the norm

    1. Whats In A Name*

      I am a consultant, but not in the traditional non-profit world. I luckily landed an annual contract with a big company that operates as a mutual company and by extension is non-profit. Right now they are my only contract and I love it – I have the security of a position but lots of flexibility.

      You have to consider a lot when you break into consulting. Projects can be short-term but they are not on a revolving door and you have to work to get them, so a portion of your time is spent on project A while actively working to acquire project B so you have income coming in.

      Below are a few things to consider in regards to building a consulting business and salary. I am not saying any of this to persuade you otherwise, it’s just a list I wish someone would have given me before I jumped right in with no plan and learned the hard way my 1st year.

      1) How big is your network? who will you approach about projects and how will you propose your service? do you have a portfolio of work that you can use or someone you can approach to be your first client?

      2) Setting rates has to take into account many things include time out of work (as no work now mean no pay), unemployment taxes, insurance costs (medical, dental, liability), additional IRA savings and other business expenses that can add up over time (think paper/pens/planner/business cards/networking lunches/conferences/continuing education and certificates, etc.)

      3) Talk to an attorney or accountant about what qualifies as a business expense if you are planning to work from a home office. You can’t work from your kitchen table and claim half your utilities but there are certain things you can use and a percentage of which you can deduct some expenses like internet/phone, etc.)

      Regarding actual number of hours a full-time salary is likely going to mean 40 hours a week (or more, especially in the beginning). When I have done 2 part-time contract simultaneously I ended up doing way more than 40 hours on real projects.

      I hope more people can chime in.

  109. Lauren*

    Monthly team (employee only) meetings … about recycling and buying a toaster vs. real stuff.

    I had mentioned this a few weeks ago, the meeting that management left so that we can come up with ways to fix the culture / making people happy again to come to work. I was annoyed that the convo turned into stuff that doesn’t explain the turnover happening or how to stop it. I had subsequently told my SVP that ‘I will never quit because we don’t have a toaster’ to get across how trivial the meeting became. It was decided we are getting a toaster, and that the building cleaning crew outright refuses to recycle as we’ve seen them throw that stuff directly in the trash bin from the recycling bins.

    So a meeting that I am not allowed to be a part of (I’m the only AD title who isn’t invited – which makes me feel oh so happy and included), happened to discuss the first employee meeting. I have a decent amount of spies that told me what was said. Apparently, the president of the office said that he uses me as a ‘litmus test’ – “I see Lauren as a litmus test, if we can make her life different here then I will have felt like I succeeded.”

    At first the comment was amusing, and I joked that he should pick another person to be his ‘litmus test’ – because I don’t care if we have a toaster. I asked my director what the president meant, but he wouldn’t give me details – likely because no one is supposed to know these other meetings happen with just leadership, plus my director knows me well enough to not tell me things that I may get upset about. 3-4 people in attendance always end up telling me anyway – because they start talking to me assuming I was on the phone, because I am an AD and every other AD is on that meeting / call. So I am no longer amused after hearing that me being the ‘litmus test’ was based on me being here the longest and remembering the good times and the bad times, and what made this place better 3 years ago. So basically, I am not a litmus test, because I can give valuable insights but instead – because I am the only person who chose to stick it out and stay with company.

    I’m not feeling valued at all right now. The president said to ‘be brave’ with feedback, but if he really cared or really thought I had something to communicate – why am I not part of the leadership meetings? I know a part of it is that I only manage interns and not FT employees like the other ADs, but it still sucks to be excluded when I’m being spoken about as some ‘litmus test’ for this entire thing!

    1. animaniactoo*

      Find a way for the flying monkeys to pass the message quietly back up the chain: “If Lauren is a litmus test, wouldn’t it make the most sense to specifically address the things that she says she cares about? I think that would have the optimal chance for making her life different here.” along with “Hmmmm… maybe making our own decisions about what we feel would make her environment better despite her input is creating a feeling of being patronized. We might want to watch out for that.”

      1. Lauren*

        I’m already using my director to convey things in those meetings in a way that uses me as an example, and may help my spies. Example: Many of you know that Lauren quit last year, but ended up staying obviously. Part of the reason she felt she had to leave was because growth opportunities just weren’t there with no formal knowledge of what it takes to be promoted – is anyone experiencing this with other employees? what is the process for getting promotions approved without someone quitting first?

        Basically, use him to identify issues by using me as the example. I would love to use my spies to say what you said, but I don’t want to out them as my spies. I might have a different director ask that question as he can get away with saying that and not be questioned.

        1. LCL*

          You are making my head hurt, this is way too much intrigue. Tell your boss not attending these meetings affects your ability to do your job, and it would be best for the company if you are invited too.

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      It definitely sounds like a poorly managed situation, and it sucks to be so overtly excluded. It also sounds like you’re not really happy with the company/your job/the management anyway, and it’s combining to create Drama.

      What concerns me is you said “plus my director knows me well enough to not tell me things that I may get upset about”–that’s not a good place to be in with a manager–how else can you be open to feedback (or expect other people to be open to yours) if you know your manager will purposefully hold information from you? And the fact that you’re referring to people as spies just multiplies the drama factor.

      You don’t give much context (so I could be reading into it), but you explicitly say that 1) you’re not feeling valued, 2) you are using multiple “spies” to gain key information your manager is not giving you because you may not react well to it, 3) you’ve already quit once, 4) management is either not giving you a true opportunity to provide feedback or you aren’t willing to try and take advantage of it (I can’t tell which after your comment that the president did elicit feedback), and 5) you don’t mention whether you actually like what you’re doing.

      That to me adds up to a serious resume-polishing session, because you don’t sound like you’re in a positive, productive situation, or one that’s likely to become so. If you do want to stick it out, then I agree with LCL. Stop the intrigue, be direct and honest about what you need to do your job, be open to others being direct and honest, and see where that takes you.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Is there anyone there who behaves in a professional manner? All of them are drama seeking people.
      This company will tank within a few years if they remain so weirdly fascinated with each other and ignore the revenue producing work.

  110. Anonymous Educator*

    Can someone help me understand a co-worker phenomenon (it’s not one specific co-worker—I’ve seen this in multiple places I’ve worked)?

    The kind of co-worker I’m talking about is not a slacker. She gets her job done and often does excellent and work and is very knowledgeable. But 1) she will spend a lot of time talking with you or talking with other people and then complain about much work she has and then 2) will complain if she is asked to do something else and how that’s preventing her from getting her real work done (right after spending an hour talking to me about random stuff that has nothing to do with work).

    Now, I’m using the feminine pronoun here, but I’ve seen it equally from both genders.

    Have you encountered this kind of co-worker? What’s the deal? Again, not slackers—totally getting work done. I guess I feel a bit weird when I encounter people like this, because I honestly don’t want to embarrass them by actually calling them out with “You’re complaining about how you don’t have time to do X, but you just spent an hour talking to me about random stuff?”

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I figure it must just be some kind of coping mechanism… or something that helps to break up the monotony of the work? I certainly don’t think these people (you?) are bad people or slackers. I just find it difficult to understand or react to.

        1. MommaTRex*

          I’m definitely not a slacker. But I am easily distracted by an interesting conversation. And I’m an extrovert who needs a little people time now and then.

          Also, I may be looking for an excuse to get out of a conversation that I do NOT find interesting, or trying to avoid a task that I really don’t want to be pulled into. I’m already responsible for so many varied things, that taking on another new thing can overwhelm me.

          OH! I just thought of another thing! I’m the go-to person for a majority of the problems people run into in my area. So there can be a day where I’m inundated with people and have had little uninterrupted time to do my real work. Or I’m worried that I need to leave open space for interruptions.

          Another thing – sometimes during a conversation, I will all of a sudden get really worried about all the stuff I have to do and start panicking (sp?).

    2. animaniactoo*

      It’s often a combination of “Look how important I am” alongside “We’re not supposed to brag about ourselves, or “be happy”, so by grumbling I am purposely not being prideful/arrogant/etc.” My favorite phrase for it is instead of one-upping, they’re one-downing.

      A way to break someone out of it if it’s more the latter than the former is by tossing in some *moderated* compliments (so it does not become a fishing-for-compliments reward), along side “Hey – the complaints make me nuts. I know you’re busy, but I think we all are to some extent and it just puts me in a bad place, even if you’re busy than I am.” (Don’t call her out on the taking the hour talking – I do some of my best work when I’m up against deadline. There’s something about that pressure that puts me in a particular mindspace sometimes that’s invaluable.)

    3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I call it the grumblebrag, and I loathe it. I usually shut it down with a friendly but kind of pointy “Well! You sound really slammed, so don’t let me take up any more of your time with chitchat!”

    4. Squeeble*

      I feel like a lot of times people do this in an attempt to be social and bond with their coworkers over work gripes, and also because complaining about how busy you are can make people feel important. I had a coworker at my last job who did this all the time.

      1. MommaTRex*

        I think that is true for some people, but not all. If I take a hard look at myself, it’s probably more about avoiding whatever work task they want to drag me into that I really just don’t want to do. Also, the easily distracted thing, then I panic.

        And I’m probably being too hard on myself for doing this sometimes. Because now that I think on it, I’m more likely to take on things when asked and be a team player. So maybe I’m more just picking a few times of drawing a line – I’m ok with 90% of the stuff dumped on me, so maybe I don’t feel so guilty about pushing back hard on the other 10%.

    5. Rincat*

      This coworker was in my former department – and he was a real jerk. His motives for talking to people were basically to lecture them on why he was right about everything in the universe. If I sound bitter…well, I’m still getting over it. :) But he would do exactly that – complain about how much work there was to be done, how he was the ONLY ONE working on any of it, and how everyone else was such a huge slacker. Except that he most certainly did not do all of the work, and he spent hours talking to people about random things. Basically he was just so self-absorbed that if he himself was not working on something, then no one was working on it. That self-absorption also meant everyone needed to hear what he had to say whenever he wanted to say it.

      I’ve been in my new department, far away from him, for nearly a month now, and I’m ever so happy. :)

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Just on my experience I have found two explanations.

      Some people derive energy from complaining. If you take away their ability to complain they cannot function. (Other people get their energy from gossiping, give them some tidbits of gossip and they will pound out the work all morning.)

      OTH, there are people who have absolutely no concept of timing and how long things take. These people annoy me, because I am constantly tracking how long it takes me to do something. So these folks will say silly things like they need an hour and a half to make a sandwich. (What’s in that sandwich?) Going the opposite way, they will point to three days worth of work and say they will have it done in a few hours. I wish I could teach myself to laugh at this stuff, but I feel really sorry for them because they have absolutely no reference points. They end up behind the eight ball many, many times.

      The bottom line is that these folks have to learn how to pound out the work last minute, because that is when they usually do it. This can lead to the impression that they are great workers. Truth be told, if they budgeted their time better they could probably double or triple their productivity.

    7. Worker Bee (Germany)*

      I am this kind of person. And for me it has nothing to do with slacking. Usually it has two functions for me. First as someone mentions above, it is socializing. Because I do work a lot (and get a lot done) at my desk, behind closed doors) I choose to make the person my priority right then and there.
      And the second reason I like to do this, is I need a real break from my work. Taking my mind of work all together for a longer time does help me to refocus and not go crazy. I can only work efficient and focused for so long. Also in my line of work there is no end to a lot of our tasks. You don’t get the accomplished feeling because you never “finish”. You need the break to not go bonkers and at the same time you will always have tons to do. It comes down to knowing when you can allow yourself to take these breaks and knowing when being chained to your desk is essential.

  111. Professor Marvel*

    I want to thank everyone for sharing their experiences with bonuses a few weeks ago. For those who didn’t read that conversation: I work for a non-profit that is severely underfunded. I was given a bonus and the local municipality that we pay to provide payroll services called it “retro pay” and deducted retirement.

    It turns out that was something they were NOT supposed to do. The person handling the payout didn’t call the executive director, but the Board Chair (she used to work for him). The Board Chair’s instructions were to call the ED and make sure everything was clear. Payroll person didn’t call the ED. ED had specifically called the retirement system and had the direct page and paragraph number citing that no retirement was to be deducted. It’s frustrating because I needed the cash for my new water heater. Plus the required match that the non-profit has to make means cutting hours for part-timers so that there is money in the budget.

    We so much want to cut ties with this office doing our payroll. For the 3rd year they messed up our W2s.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Oh man, I feel you. For what it’s worth, if you DO cut ties with them, you might end up in even more of a mess! Says the woman who had the payroll company that was dropped mid-year still file a return with the IRS *on top of* the correct end-of-year one filed by the current company, and then had the IRS come after me saying that I had earned 1.5 times what I had claimed. It got sorted out and I ended up with a nice chunk of money back in the end, but it was likewise a serious crimp when I did not need it.

      1. Professor Marvel*

        Arrrggh. This is a nightmare situation. We would love to contract out for payroll with an accounting firm, but move bill paying back in house. The office at the municipality doing it has changed the submission schedule and now our bills are constantly late being paid (because the person doing them is out a lot).

        1. Observer*

          If you can’t move everything over, can you move just payroll to a commercial payroll company? Late bill payments are bad enough. But messing up W2s? 3 years in a row?!

  112. KR*

    HEY HEY HEY
    I had a phone interview that I think went super well yesterday and today the manager invited me to drop by the office and meet the people I would be supporting. Manager isn’t local so he can’t be there. He said either to call or email him after to let him know how it went so of course I’m going to call. I’m so so so hopeful. I think this position would be perfect for me. Wish me luck!!!!

      2. KR*

        I GOT AN OFFER!!!!!!!!! And it’s slightly higher per hour than they originally listed for the position. The recruiter called me to offer the job before I even got home and settled to call the manager, so they must have liked me a lot. The manager said it was close but ultimately it was a matter of my personality and specific skills more closely matching what the team was looking for. If the on-boarding goes according to schedule I will start in about 2 weeks! SO EXCITED. Thank you for your good thoughts and thank you Alison and the commenting community for your expertise. I tailored my resume and cover letter for the job specifically and prepped for the interview using all of your advice and I’m so happy I could sing.

    1. brightstar*

      I don’t think that would work, maybe going to church on Ash Wednesday.

      Fun fact: Mardi Gras is a state holiday in Louisiana. But you may have already known that.

    4. Karo*

      Mardi Gras is just an excuse to binge before lent – it doesn’t have any religious meaning that I’m aware of so I’d go with no.

      1. whichsister*

        actually there is a religious basis for it…. you would consume all your vices that you would be sacrificing for the 40 days of lent…. Mardi Gras is an off shoot of that

        “Shrove Tuesday is observed by many Christians, including Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists and Roman Catholics,[2] who “make a special point of self-examination, of considering what wrongs they need to repent, and what amendments of life or areas of spiritual growth they especially need to ask God’s help in dealing with.”[3]
        Being the last day of the liturgical season historically known as Shrovetide, before the penitential season of Lent, related popular practices, such as indulging in food that one sacrifices for the upcoming forty days, are associated with Shrove Tuesday celebrations, before commencing the fasting and religious obligations associated with Lent. The term Mardi Gras is French for “Fat Tuesday”, referring to the practice of the last night of eating richer, fatty foods before the ritual fasting of the Lenten season, which begins on Ash Wednesday.”

        1. Emi.*

          I don’t think it makes sense to call butter and sugar “vices” in this context, but yes, traditional rules for fasting were pretty strict so you wanted to use up those ingredients. Partying isn’t a religious requirement, though.

    5. Rat in the Sugar*

      It might sound better if you called it Shrove Tuesday, but it’s not a Holy Day of Obligation so I think you’re still out of luck, unfortunately.

    7. ArtsNerd*

      My parent post is in jest, but I am actually curious as to whether there is a legitimate case that can be made if the circumstances are right – not because I’m trying to skip work (I could take the day off if I really wanted to.) The hypothetical just got stuck in my head and I wanted to bring it here.

    8. BRR*

      I went to school in New Orleans and they alternated giving the week Mardi Gras and the Friday and Monday around easter or giving Mon-Wed off of Mardi Gras and a week for spring break.

    9. Chaordic One*

      Do you think taking off work for Mardi Gras is a covered religious accommodation?

      No, but, depending on your employer, the day after might be covered as a sick day.

  114. brightstar*

    Sorry to pop in, but I have a few questions about an employee.

    1. They have been wearing what appears to be sometimes the same pair of trousers day after day for the past month or so. This week they’ve worn the exact same outfit two days in a row and the same pants (they’re distinctive) every day. As this has only recently begun happening and is appearing to get worse, I’m wondering if I should be concerned. Generally the clothes look clean, but this is not always the case. There’s been no change in their living circumstances that I am aware of, and I’m not sure if (due to my history of things like this occurring with mental illness) if I’m over reacting.

    2. This same employee has no organizational skills and this is affecting their ability to do their job to the best. Does anyone have any resources they can recommend on helping an adult learn organization skills?

    1. animaniactoo*

      It sounds like they might be unexpectedly sleeping over somewhere and not planning for that possibility, even though it’s now happened several times. The lack of organizational skills would impact getting home again in time to get changed in the morning/plan for the possibility, etc.

      How’s their handwriting (yes, there’s a specific reason I’m asking)?

      1. brightstar*

        They have really good handwriting. I had considered sleep overs, but it doesn’t seem to be the case unless they are holding out. They’ve worn the same pair of pants all 5 days this week.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Hmmm. In that case, I don’t have a resource on hand for the organizational skills (I think there’s stuff covered in the book “Life Skills for Adults”, but I don’t think that would go over well here), but I think you should simply address the wardrobe as a calm straightup thing.

          “This is sensitive, but I need to address it with you. I’ve noticed that you’ve worn the same outfits or pieces of clothing two days in a row or longer recently. While they usually appear to be clean there have been times when it’s not the case, and this is pretty outside of normal work dress. Can you explain what’s going on?”. Then listen and take it from there with an emphasis on a need for her work clothes to fall within standard norms of regular changes if you get pushback that centers on a need for individuality or lack of importance to adhering to a standard, etc.

    2. MommaTRex*

      I’m organizationally challenged and I HATE laundry (my least favorite chore; I’d rather scrub toilets), so I’ve had those times struggling to find something to wear.

      I also recently gained a few pounds, and most of my pants are just a wee bit too tight. I only have about 3 pair that are really comfortable right now. I’m struggling with losing 5-10 pounds vs. buying some new pants.

      I really should go buy some new pants…

      1. Justme*

        I own 4 pair of the same style of pants in the same color. So it looks like I wear the same ones every day.

        1. Artemesia*

          This would be me. I have no interest in clothes and when I find a brand I like that fits I buy several. It would not be at all odd to be seen in the same pants (perhaps duplicates, perhaps not) for a week.

          What I don’t understand is why this is any of the manager’s business? If the clothes smell, or are inappropriate for client meeting or something THAT is the issues, no ones sartorial choices.

          1. brightstar*

            I’m concerned about my employee’s well being, it isn’t about judging them for what they wear.

        2. KR*

          Both of these. I have two pairs of dress slacks that fit me very well. They’re expensive though so I can’t afford to buy a lot of them so I just rotate the two between some different shirts. I also have some skinny-jean-but-not-jean type things so I wear those because it’s so hard to find pants that fit me well and look good. However, they look similar so it looks like I’m wearing close to the same outfit every day.

    3. Emi.*

      I think the issue of them repeating clothes is somewhat distinct from the issue of them wearing clothes that aren’t clean. Is wearing the same outfit over a problem in and of itself? Like, if they just bought multiple copies of the same outfit and wore a clean copy every day, would you care?

      If not, I’d only talk to them about it if people are seeing them and getting grossed out thinking their clothes are dirty, i.e. treat “giving the impression of wearing dirty clothes” about the same as “wearing dirty clothes,” which you can definitely address.

      1. brightstar*

        It’s more that the clothes aren’t always clean. Right now I’m waiting to see if it continues before saying anything.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I’m guessing also rumpled, look as though they dressed in the dark? Because sleepovers could definitely explain that. Or maybe there is something else going on and they’re not able to access laundry facilities right now. I had this happen to me once and had to wash clothes in the bathtub. It sucked.

          Please update us; I’m dying of curiosity now.

    4. LAI*

      Are you sure it’s actually the same pair, and your employee doesn’t just own multiple pairs of the same pants? I personally like to dress simply and when I find an item I like, I sometimes buy 2-3 of the same thing. I have 3 pairs of black pants that probably look identical to anyone else, and I rotate them. Unless the pants are dirty or visibly worn, I’m not sure why it’s a problem that this person wears the same thing every day. If they were well organized, would you care what they wore?

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I was wondering this too. I feel like a lot of people will buy multiples of something that is comfortable and affordable especially if they’re a hard to fit size/shape.

        1. brightstar*

          I actually have a few multiples of things, but I am sure that this isn’t the case. As I said earlier, right now I’m just waiting to see if it’s a real pattern and if the clothes are dirty before saying anything.

      2. Spoonie*

        If I find a cut of pants that works, I buy the hell out of it. I think I have at least 2 pairs of black pants in the exact same cut, plus another color of the same cut. If it’s a problem of your employee wearing the *same* pair of pants with the same distinct stain on the lower left leg, that’s different. But the same style/cut is less of an issue. I don’t like shopping, particularly for pants, and I would be somewhat embarrassed if I learned that one of my coworkers had written to AAM about my wardrobe choices (or lack thereof).

    5. NaoNao*

      Ooh, not to be an armchair diagnostician, but Penelope Trunk, who’s a very successful (by her telling, heh) consultant big business something or other (she runs a startup about personality types and staffing and her blog is delightfully koo-koo. All kinds of advice that would make Allison scream/do a spit take) describes *this exact issue*. She has Asperger’s and she had a history of abuse, so those things combined formed some rigid thought patterns and behaviors, like wearing the same thing over and over, until told sharply to wash it, and executive function “dysfunction”.
      Or, on a more simple explanation, they could be flirting with an ultra minimal lifestyle; some articles and websites talk about a daily uniform that makes life easier, perhaps they’re misinterpreting this and going too far?

      1. Hazel Asperg*

        Well, this has been an eye-opener. I wear the same pair of trousers to work every day, five days a week, and I had never considered that there was anything odd, unusual or wrong with that. I also wear tops for usually two days in a row. (I have a sedentary desk job.)

        I’m also autistic (Aspergers). I am a little anxious and mortified that there may have been something wrong with my behaviour for years and I didn’t realise. Thanks for drawing my attention to this and making me rethink some things. Genuinely, I appreciate it.

        1. Happymammy*

          So long as your clothes are clean it shouldn’t be an issue. The concern here is that the clothes aren’t clean and OP is worried that there’s some problem preventing the employee from accessing clean clothes.

          I wear clothes until they need to be washed. (Typically 2-3 days for a top and a week for trousers/jumper because there is underwear under it. Underwear obviously I wash every day). It’s wasteful of resources to wash clothes that are still clean.

          I have a hamper by my bed of clothes that are worn but clean enough to be worn again so that way I can mix up outfits and look like I’m wearing fresh clothes each day when actually I’m not. I might wear the same trousers 5 times in a 3-week period before washing them.

          Then there are other days that I’m wearing something for 5 minutes before my toddler smears something on it – so I still end up with waaay too much laundry.

          Tldr: if they’re clean it’s no problem.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I’m speculating here, but I remember a letter from someone in the past, who said how grateful they were to get a job after having been unemployed for a long time. The person said she didn’t have any nice work clothes when she started and came to work in blue jeans and t-shirts, until a couple of months later when she had received several paychecks and could afford to buy some nicer clothes.

      If the person is one of your direct supports, you can ask them. When someone is disorganized (and they’re not your supervisor) you kind of have to constantly remind them of the steps involved and things to check until they remember them. With some people it helps if they have lists of steps to follow (cheat sheets?), but with others the lists don’t seem to help.

  115. lionheart2601*

    I have complained before about my staff member Fiona who lies just to create drama. I’m learning just to laugh about it (but sometimes it’s difficult!). Today was a funny one.
    She needs to get to an embassy to get a visa for her upcoming holiday. When she asked me about it on Wednesday, she told me she could go on either Friday or Monday. Another staff member already had an appointment booked for Friday, so I asked her if Monday would be ok. Knowing her as well as I do, I said TWICE “Are you sure Monday is ok? Because you can go on Friday if you need to” but she said multiple times that Monday would be fine.

    So, today (Friday) we are all sitting in the office when her cell phone rings and she answers “Hello…yes…yes…yes…ok” then hangs up. She was on the phone for about 5 seconds (obviously not long enough for any real conversation). Then she tells us all “Oh my goodness, that was my sister. She says there is a special sale at the embassy. Free visas, today only. I know you said I can only go on Monday, but pleeeeease just this once can you make an exception? I can’t afford to miss this special offer!” I gave her permission, and she (65 years old, with a limp) started RUNNING out the door. She doesn’t have a car, and the next bus wasn’t for 45 minutes, so she must have had a taxi ready and waiting.

    I think she really thinks she “gets” me each time she pulls stunts like this.

    1. animaniactoo*

      [raises eyebrow] “Huh, are you sure that’s correct? Let me check, I’d hate for you to go running out there just to find out that’s not actually what’s going on.”

      1. Isben Takes Tea*

        That was my favorite part! “Are you going on an international honeymoon?” “Well, we’re hoping to if the embassy has a BOGO sale…”

  116. CanIDoAnythingRight?*

    I need help calming down and maybe could use some helpful (not scolding) advice. I work for a hospital in the marketing department doing digital content strategy. Have been here a year and a half now. Up until recently, I have felt very confident in my role and in my personal goals to help the organization succeed. I have always been praised and recognized for my can-do attitude, fresh perspective and genuine enthusiasm for every project I touch. A few months ago, our department contracted a new big-boss who’s looking more high-level at organizational goals (primarily, driving volume because it’s down). Our small team is feeling the pressure of this as many of our physicians are demanding more of us now than ever. My boss is at the brunt of it and she’s admitted she feels as lost as wel do and has apologized for not being a good communicator. I know for a fact the workload will only get worse. We are all working in a vacuum until our official marketing plans get put in place, and even then, the projects will double.I can handle high volume and staying late, that’s not the issue, but I need to know exactly what I’m working towards as it relates to my role and the goal to drive volume. There is no answer and it’s becoming increasingly hard to prioritize everything. I feel like I’m checking stuff off the list instead of really putting insights and strategy into it due to demands left and right and no real direction. My boss is aware of this, but offers no solution. Furthermore, great ideas and writing assignments come up and they get added to my 1,000 things to do list.

    So today as I was scheduling a meeting with a vendor, my boss intercepts me and asks me to help her build out something. I took a second to gather my brain because I was focused on a task and then she goes, “If you can help out great, I can’t do it all. It looks like you’re not busy.” Excuse me? Did we not just come out of a status meeting where we went over our projects? I was very taken aback because it made me question what I was doing wrong. I honestly have no idea why she said that. I wasn’t texting or looking at gossip sites or any of that. So I responded, “I’m… not busy?” and my tone was sort of defensive, coupled by a sigh. She goes, “Well, let me know if you have other things to do.” I said, “As you know, there’s a million things to do, but I’ll make it a priority.” Then I went into our office and we talked about the task as if nothing had happened. I, of course, apologized for my “attitude” and said I was a bit taken aback/caught off guard that it didn’t seem that I was busy. And she said, “Oh it’s ok. I know you’re busy.”

    So what gives? For the record, it was the first time ever I sort of “reacted” like that. Was I out of line? Was she? Is she just feeling the effects of stress and misinterpreted some body language of mine that indicated I wasn’t busy? Am I over-analyzing? I’m super upset right now and everything in my life (which is a living hell) is riding on this job. I can’t do anything right.

    1. animaniactoo*

      I think that she fell into a trap of “sitting down not rushing around, not busy *at this moment* and that this was an invaluable pushback on that kind of thinking for her.

      I think the followup you need to do is to revisit this again and simply say “Hey, sorry to bring this up again, but it’s been bugging me. Why did you think I wasn’t busy then? You later said that you do know that I’m busy, so I’m just curious what you meant by it looked like I wasn’t busy?”

      Which will give you the opportunity address “Hmmm… I can understand why it might have seemed that way, but I was actually in the middle of scheduling a call right then. Please don’t think that just because I’m [____], I’m not busy!”

      1. CanIDoAnythingRight?*

        Thank you very much. Do you suggest I bring it up again later or on Monday once I’ve calmed down? We seem to be functioning as if nothing happened now.

        1. animaniactoo*

          I would say Monday, because if you do it again now, a) it looks like you can’t let go of something that’s theoretically just been resolved vs you tried to let it go and it’s just bugging you and therefore it’s worth resolving and b) you’re more likely to bumble the conversation and make it worse than if you wait and are clearer-headed.

          Plus, if you have an otherwise good longstanding relationship with your boss, she’ll see all of this in context and it’s not as big a deal as it feels right now.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Sounds like both of you reacted poorly to the body language a stressed person gives off. You apologized though, and she sort of implied an apology, so I think your best bet is to file this one under “things said in the heat of the moment that should not have been said” for both of you and push it out of your mind. You have enough on your mind right now.

    3. fposte*

      Wow, it sounds like you are going through a really tough time. My suspicion is that none of this is as doom-laden as your stress makes it feel and that you can do plenty of things right.

      I don’t read your boss’s comment the way you do–I read “It looks like you’re not busy” as “It looks like you’re not in the middle of something uninterruptable,” not “It looks like you don’t have much to do.” It’s not a great phrase because it’s pretty easy for people to read it the way you did, but I don’t think it was a comment about your overall workload; while it sounds like she’s not giving you any help on the overwork, she’s otherwise aware of it. I also don’t think your response sounds that heinous either–it sounds like you just came across as baffled.

      Overall, I’m less concerned about this particular exchange than the level of stress you’re under that’s making this feel like such a big deal. Can you find anything to help you through that right now?

      1. CanIDoAnythingRight?*

        Thank you. Yes and no. I go to therapy and exercise heavily and do my best to leave work at work. The most I can do is ride it out. Unfortunately, life circumstances allow me no time at the moment to search for other opportunities. As an aside, our benefits are outstanding- full health coverage and 30 days vacation.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Agreeing with fposte. I don’t see an insult in her question. It was just a question to me. However, when people are flying about working at 90 mph, this type of misunderstanding happens frequently. Words take on double or triple meanings, the speaker does not even realize.

          All of you are tired and taxed that is going to mean people are on edge and things that would be normal otherwise might now be misconstrued.

          Exercise heavily? Can you skip exercising one day and use that time to look for a job?
          Make sure you are getting some sleep, too.

  117. Aussie Teacher*

    So it’s the end of Week 4 at school and my first time managing a department of 4 – and I’m loving it! (This is after my toxic boss and his toxic wife have both left.) Everyone is happy, working well together and communicating, and they keep telling me how much they appreciate me and that I’m doing a great job. The only downside is the hours – it’s 4 weeks until a major school event and the extra rehearsals each week (4.5-8hrs a week) are killing me (on top of my 10 hour days). I’m in bed by 8pm most nights if I’m not doing more work at home. I know it’s only for the next 4 weeks and I’m otherwise ecstatic at how smoothly everything’s gone – I just need to survive until then!
    I’m crediting my 5 years of daily AAM reading for how smoothly the transition to being a manager has gone – that and taking over from a bad manager! When you do normal healthy manager things and people are amazed and grateful, it makes you look pretty good!

  118. jamlady*

    I vented last week about my job getting boring, but loving my company and wanting to stay and see if things pick back up, but also interviewing for a job that reached out to me through a mutual contact. I’m venting again.

    I have another interview – this one with the state. For someone who isn’t actively job searching, I sure seem to be piling up those interviews. Like I said last week, I am so incredibly lucky to have a job in my niche field (and to be interviewing for the only 2 available niche-field jobs in my region), but I can’t help feeling stressed out. And I noticed today that I’ve been ignoring a lot of stress warnings from my body because I woke up this morning with every single symptom of the last 3 weeks attacking me.

    I’m backtracking and coming to terms with the following:
    – I’ve been seeing our client with rose-colored glasses because my last job had a client from hell.
    – I’ve acted like this job has great work/life balance, but I actually work from home a lot after I’ve clocked out and my husband is not loving it. I worked 80 hour weeks at my last job and I think doing some of that from home made me feel like it was better?
    – Our client sat on their butt for half of a contract and they initially said they knew my teams wouldn’t hit deliverables because of that, but I’m seeing strong changes in expectations and I feel doomed for failure.
    – My boss has suddenly blown a gasket over expense reports even though it’s all budgeted into the contract (his job) and all necessary. I think he’s feeling pressure from finance.
    – My boss is generally amazing at his job and he was told last week that he has to earn an 80 million dollar contract in July or be fired. I think I realized that this company is no different than the rest of them.

    I should actively look for work, but I make more than anyone is willing to pay right now for the same job. Maybe I should take a pay cut. No idea right now. All I know is the my neck and back muscles are a mess, my stomach has hurt for weeks, and my chronic migraine is out of control. I need to make something happen.

    1. Graciosa*

      I think your last paragraph is pretty telling.

      The message from your body is quite clear.

      This may be a good time for you and your husband to have a serious talk about your life together and your priorities. What do you want it to look like? Assuming your current life doesn’t match the goal, make a plan for how you can get from where you are to where you want to be. Maybe you start curtailing your work at home in the evenings – fewer hours, or a designated night when you just don’t do it (then increase the hours or add a second night).

      If you’re thinking about a potential pay cut, starting to change your lifestyle *now* will show you if you’re comfortable with those changes (and give you a bit of a financial cushion – take an amount of money equal to your anticipated lost salary and sock it away somewhere).

      I don’t know if the next opportunity in your niche field will solve everything, but it doesn’t seem likely. However, I do believe you can get “there” from your current “here” if you identify where “there” is and start working to get “there.”

      Best wishes.

  119. Former Invoice Girl*

    A few months ago I wrote in about my team being dispersed because the company we had been supporting decided not to extend their contract with us for the next year. I was transferred into a new position within the company in early October and been there since; I’ve been with the company for a year altogether.

    Guess what? The roles of the department I’m now in will also be taken over by another supplier, which means some people will be transferred into their workforce — including me! This whole thing is to happen sometime in June – I’m really wondering how long my new job will last. Aah!

    1. Buu*

      Make sure you save some money and keep your resume up to date, I’d be tempted to keep feelers out in case. Be prepared and good luck.

  120. Embarrassed Anon*

    So yesterday my manager had a quick, difficult talk with me. Some coworker’s had commented to her about a faint, unidentifiable scent connected to me. She said I didn’t smell BAD, but she was hoping it was perfume or something of the like I could cut back on.

    Only… I don’t wear perfume. Or scented lotion. My current deodorant is unscented. My soap is homemade and the scent doesn’t linger. I do use a scented shampoo, but that smell doesn’t seem like it’s overpowering. I have no idea what it could be, and though I reassured her I’d try to find a way to change it, I’ll admit here I’m not sure what that could be! Help???

    1. ArtsNerd*

      Ohhhh this is hard. What about the detergent you use to wash your clothes? Anti-static sheets? Any hair styling products?

      1. Embarrassed Anon*

        Unscented detergent, I use plain vinegar in the rinse instead of fabric softener or dryer sheets, and I don’t use styling products. I’m rather a minimalist when it comes to messing with my hair.

        Heck, I even wash my work clothes after every use. The only time I’ll wear something more than once between washes is casual jeans where the first wear was only maybe 4-5 hours.

          1. fposte*

            That’s a definite possibility–IME it doesn’t evaporate as thoroughly as popularly believed. My brother ate vinegar-laden salads as an almost exclusive diet as a teenager and reeked of the stuff.

              1. Embarrassed Anon*

                I tried that once. Once. I couldn’t smell it once it dried, but it takes my hair way too long to dry. (Luckily I tried it on a day off.)

              2. EddieSherbert*

                Agreed; I did vinegar hair rinses for awhile and I didn’t really notice any weird odors, but my SO did (and told me, thank goodness).

            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              Except that it usually doesn’t. I’d imagine it’s the vinegar. Ascetic acid has a very distinct smell.

            2. jamlady*

              I have a very sensitive nose and I can smell vinegar from a mile away, for days, with a gas mask on, and someone waving tacos in front of my face.

              Though admittedly I’d be pretty distracted by wanting to eat the tacos.

              1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

                Same, except for the tacos. I could eat tacos in a bathtub full of vinegar; my brain has its priorities straight.

                But seriously, I guarantee it’s the vinegar. I spilled vinegar when I was cooking a while ago, forgot to wash the pants, and almost gagged when I opened my pants drawer. It does not dissipate.

          3. Detective Amy Santiago*

            That was my first thought when I read this comment. Vinegar has a pretty strong, unpleasant odor.

            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              And it squares with the “it’s not a perfume, it’s not exactly bad, but it’s noticeable” characterization from the coworker – that kind of sweetish, sour, tangy zing.

          4. GigglyPuff*

            I’m also genuinely curious, why do you use vinegar to rinse clothes? I’ve literally only ever used it to wash my dog’s bedding, especially after an accident to get the ammonia out.

            1. Embarrassed Anon*

              Vinegar works as a fabric softener, kills any lingering scent the soap didn’t get, and as anti-static when drying.

              It’s both cheaper and more environmentally friendly than what’s it’s replacing to boot.

              I can’t smell it when taking clothes out of the dryer, but I’ll see if someone else can.

              1. GigglyPuff*

                Interesting I didn’t know that, but I’ve also never used fabric softener. My parents never did, so I literally have no idea what the difference is when it is used. Also, while probably not environmentally friendly I just use second rinse to make sure my clothes don’t smell like detergent, plus it helps get rid of the slight stiffness (heaviness) I sometimes feel in my thicker items like sweaters and jeans (and I usually use the bare minimum of high quality detergent, so I know it sounds crazy but I notice a difference in my clothes when I don’t use second rinse). Maybe do that a few times just to get the vinegar scent out of the clothes.

              2. Kyrielle*

                If it turns out to be the vinegar, if you haven’t tried them, maybe switch to dryer balls? There are some good felted ones out there. They’re not quite as effective at anti-static, but they do some in that direction, and seem to work well as a fabric softener in my experience.

                1. Embarrassed Anon*

                  I’ve tried dryer balls before (both homemade and storebought ones). I didn’t love how they worked on my clothes and was worried about wear from the balls, especially since I wash them so much (and yes, it’s usually needed).

                  I will try cutting back back on the vinegar, though. I think the amount I use has been creeping up. And static is a big worry in winter-I wear a lot of polar fleece around the house and vinegar is the only thing that’s worked to stop static with it since I gave up dryer sheets.

                3. Observer*

                  Another thing that can cut down static is a humidifier. A number of years ago, we had a serious static problem in our office that needed to be dealt with. The thing that worked was putting a few (I think we got three of them) cabinet sized humidifiers in strategic places around our office. The difference was incredible.

        2. Princess Carolyn*

          I also use vinegar in my laundry, and generally I have no issue with the odor… but occasionally, I do. You might try using a bit less of it in the loads or eliminating it entirely for a few wash cycles to see if that helps. A faint scent of vinegar is exactly the kind of odor you might describe as not quite BAD, but bothersome.

    2. Kyrielle*

      That’s rough! What about your laundry detergent? And your washer, is it a front-loader and if so do you leave it open between uses? I’ve had a faint (although this probably isn’t it, because it’s also pretty gross, despite being faint) scent added when our front-loader wasn’t being left open (my kids were “helping” when I wasn’t paying attention, so we had to have a talk about why the door stays open) – and it stays in until the next washing, in my experience. Some laundry detergents or fabric softeners that are scented linger more than others also.

      If none of those ping as the likely cause, I’d consider trying an unscented shampoo for a week or so.

      Whatever it is, I’d also say to your manager something like, “I’m not sure what my coworkers have been noticing – I don’t wear perfume or scented lotion, or very much in the way of scented products at all. However, I’m trying a change in my (laundry routine / shampoo / whatever) – but I’m not sure if I’ll be able to tell if that changes things. Could you let me know if it helps?”

      1. Embarrassed Anon*

        As I mentioned above, no scented products in my laundry… And it’s top-loading. Every so often a roommate does a load with bleach anyways, which would kill off anything growing in it.

        I’m not sure I’ve ever seen unscented shampoo in the stores!

        And I did mention to my manager that I don’t use many scented products, so she’s aware that finding a solution is more complicated.

        2. Kyrielle*

          Yeah, I’d try cutting out the vinegar; it sounds very probable. I’d give laundry without that a try and see if it makes a difference.

          1. sensitive nose*

            +1. Vinegar is a very funky smell, even faintly. There are a whole bunch of natural/nature friendly lightly scented and unscented fabric softeners to be had these days.

        3. Observer*

          Vinegar does sound like the most likely issue. But, I don know that there is at least one brand of Washing machine that has a problem with mold that causes a smell. When I was looking for a new washing machine about a year ago, I was going to buy a specific model that got a good Consumer Report rating, but when I did some searches, I found a number of reports about this odor thing. If I recall correctly, it was a Maytag model.

    4. brightstar*

      Do you have a front loading washing machine? It’s possible that smells musty and so it’s in your clothes.

        1. Amadeo*

          Yeah, it can get a little musty if it’s not completely dried and/or left to sit. It may also be the vinegar you are using in the rinse, OP. Especially if the scent is faint, as the scent of that will definitely linger a bit.

    5. GigglyPuff*

      Is there a friend you could ask to help? Also could it be your laundry detergent? Besides perfumes that’s the main thing I smell from people.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          +1 also! I actually really like this suggestion… Friend, Family, SO, somebody less awkward than your manager to sniff you every once in awhile as you change things up.

      2. Embarrassed Anon*

        I’m not sure my friends would be much help! They definitely wouldn’t be if it were my soap-they all use the soap I make! I’ll have to ask about laundry though.

        1. Observer*

          I missed that you make your own soap. That’s another real possibility.

          Get someone who does NOT use your soap to give it a good sniff and see what they say.

          As others have noted, nose blindness is a real thing. And it would apply to just about every one of the issues mentioned so far.

    6. fposte*

      Oh, that was no fun–I’m sorry. Do you have a loudmouth relative or friend that you’d be willing to let wander your house sniffing things? That might help pin the origin down.

    7. MommaTRex*

      Do you have a coworker that you’re close enough to that would be willing to sniff you and tell you the results?

    8. Sibley*

      Are you a different color than your coworkers? I have noticed that natural body odor does vary. Black people for example tend to have a much stronger odor to me, and if someone is unused to it, it’s noticeable. Foods, medicines, or medical conditions can also impact body odor.

      Definitely check your washer though, and it wouldn’t hurt to check the dryer as well.

      You may think the soap’s scent doesn’t linger, but check with someone else to be sure. Noseblindness is a thing.

      1. Embarrassed Anon*

        Racial bias is an interesting thought. This area (and the people at my company) is hugely multicultural, with a lot of immigrants, as well as first and second generations. I’m mixed, but pass as white (it is the dominant portion of the mix), and the smaller portion is one of the larger minorities in this area.

        1. Stunned*

          I’m going to walk that back and assume that you didn’t mean it that way. But I’ll also say that what you said–unless you’ve done some sort of weird blind folded black people smell test– probably isn’t actually empirically true.

          Diet, personal care products, and a host of other factors that can sometimes be related to ethnic/cultural groups influence how people smell. But that still doesn’t really equal “black people” as a monolith.

          And implying that is does, especially so casually, is actually deeply offensive, on a deeply personal level.

    9. EddieSherbert*

      Another thought: pets? Pet odor seems like a common nose-blind issue.

      (Also, sorry you ran into this situation! It sounds horribly awkward and you seem to be taking it well, even though you sound like a very clean and scent conscientious person!)

      1. Embarrassed Anon*

        Pet odor is a possibility- I do live with two cats and one has been all over me trying to keep warm this winter. She’s not allowed in my drawers, but that doesn’t always mean anything!

        And thank you! I grew up with a parent that was allergic to what felt like everything in the air, and I’ve only gotten more conscious of how much everything is scented as I get older. I impressed myself with how calm I was talking with my manager yesterday. It wasn’t until I was driving home that the embarrassment really hit. (Too often I get emotional about things. I’m usually good about taking work corrections, but with something so personal…)

        1. EddieSherbert*

          Oh, absolutely, I think even the calmest person ever would be hard-pressed to NOT take this a bit personally. It sounds like you did awesome.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          It’s easy to not notice something you smell all the time! Your nose becomes blind to it. Even if it’s a nice smell–which is why people tend to overload on cologne and the like.

        3. NaoNao*

          So…this might not be it, but I worked for a woman who used natural deodorant and homemade soap and followed some of the same routines with washing clothing and she had a *very* distinct odor: her personal, natural body odor. It was not bad–but it was so different than the normal chemical fog that surrounds most people that it took some getting used to.
          One’s personal body odor can be a very strong scent (again, not “bad”) because it’s designed like that—to get a mate who’s like mmm what’s that delicious smell? Genes that mesh well with mine!! Whee!
          Any chance that you would consider possibly switching one item to a more “commercial” brand, maybe half the time? Or perhaps dabbing on a little essential or natural fragrance oil right before work? That might help.

    10. Ultraviolet*

      That must have felt awkward, I’m sorry!

      For the vinegar in your laundry: how much do you use, and what water temperature are you rinsing it with? I’ve heard the temperature makes a difference in how much the smell sticks around. And it’s really easy to use too much.

      I saw downthread that you make your own soap, and I would also consider the possibility that you’ve gotten so used to its scent that you’re not noticing it anymore. Especially if you make it in your kitchen or something.

      Good luck!

      1. Embarrassed Anon*

        I think the amount of vinegar has been creeping up. I use one of those Downey balls to dispense it, and it’s been creeping up to well over half-full. Since I don’t smell the vinegar once clothes are out of the dryer, it was harder to notice. (And I’ve never noticed a smell once things were dry, not even the first time I tried it.)

        As far as temps, washing is cold/cold, and with the dryer set to the lowest temp.

        And for homemade soap, I admit that noseblindness is a possibility. I do deliberately not use as much fragrance and essential oils as some others (and homemade soap never really has the sticking power of store bought washes anyways), plus most of my soaps are older now, and I rotate scents whenever I use up a bar.

        1. mreasy*

          If you’re using the vinegar in the dry cycle rather than the wash cycle (am I reading this right?), I wouldn’t think the smell would have the opportunity to dissipate. Wouldn’t it have similar fabric-softening properties in the wash? (Though I suppose it wouldn’t help with dryer static). I use natural fabric softener sheets but my folks use lavender dryer bags which are basically sachets of dried lavender – maybe an option?

          1. Embarrassed Anon*

            I use a downey ball, so the vinegar gets released into the rinse water in the washer. Honestly, I can barely smell it coming out of the washer, and the smell is gone for me by the time the dryer’s done. It’s also by far the best anti-static thing I’ve used (and that’s including the dryer sheets I used growing up for softening and anti-static).

    11. Not So NewReader*

      One time I read a story of a man who was in a similar situation. He just could not find the problem. Totally baffled he went to the doctor. It took a bit but the doc concluded that the man needed to clean his rings! Problem solved. He had fancy rings with nooks and crannies where stuff could get caught. Not where you thought this story was going, right?

      Check your rings and your eyeglasses if you wear them. Eyeglasses -check around the nose pads. You can use witch hazel to clean your jewelry and your glasses.

      You can add baking soda to your final rinse and that will work as a fabric softener.

    12. At the Timberline*

      Here are things I’ve run into—

      Vinegar – this one has already been discussed :) I went through an aromatic phase of trying this to clean everything and also as a daily beverage. Now I use less and rinse more.

      Cats – coworker had two cats in a small apartment, with no open windows/fresh air during the winter months. The person’s clothes, bags – anything from their home – had a strong smell. I don’t know if it’s from the cats themselves, or their food, litter, etc – but possibly it could be helped by air purifiers, baking soda, Febreeze, etc.

      Garlic/spices – daily garlic supplements caused a coworker to sweat a very garlicky aroma. It can also happen with onions and other spices and foods with sulfur. Taking chlorophyll can help neutralize the situation.

      Mothballs/mildew – I am not sure exactly what it was, but a coworker’s clothes always smelled strongly of it.

      Natural soap – this one may be a longshot, and it may just be my body chemistry, but castille soap always smells weird on me, like BO :/

      And if you want to try to mask whatever’s going on while figuring out the base issue, you could try a very light fragrance or essential oil. Whole Foods and similar stores carry an essential oil-based perfume called Pacifica – their orange or grapefruit mango are great (very light, non-controversial citrus). And I usually put it on my clothes, rather than body, because I am always wondering about nose-blindness and whether my clothes have been running around absorbing random odors without my knowledge.

      And I’m sure this feels awkward and embarrassing, but awesome job handling it so well, I’m sure you’ll get it figured out soon, and know that most of us, definitely including me, have had something similar happen!

  121. Social Media ?*

    I work in a university in the Teapot Engineering department. One of my coworkers – I’ll call her Alice – is the administrator (also a professor) for the department’s Facebook page. I am concerned that the page is becoming Alice’s platform to showcase her work both in and outside the classroom as many (and much more than other professors) posts are about her; I would almost easily say 8 out of 10 posts at any given time are about her. In a distant second will be our chairperson, and even in a very distant third will be anyone else.

    My concern is that she is not featuring the department accurately. If perspective students see this page, they will only read about her and her doings in the classroom and research. There are plenty of other professors – both full time and adjunct – who could use recognition for their teaching and research (and who have much more experience). Are these people not speaking? Have nothing to offer? Perhaps, but without knowing, she’s letting the page become the “Alice Show.”

    Is this something to bring up to the chair? How about anonymously? Or is this a leave it alone type situation?

      1. Social Media ?*

        She’s not the first person I’ve seen who promotes themselves on a company’s social media page.

    2. fposte*

      Is the department Facebook page the sole province of the professor? That seems weird. If so, the problem may be that she’s a volunteer and nobody else wants to do the thing, so it’s either do it Alice’s way or have Facebook go stagnant. Who handles your department’s website and other social media? Can you suggest that it be bundled in with them so it’s less personal and more departmental?

      1. Social Media ?*

        I don’t how she got the position. I think she manages at least all of the social media for the department. The actual webpage on the university’s website I am not sure if she or someone in IT does that.

        I thought about what you said in regards that it is either she posts something vs. letting it go stagnant. However, there are plenty of full-time professors, adjuncts, and students who she can find something to write about. But more often than not, it’s about her teapot design conference or her teapot spout engineering class, usually saying “Professor Alice’s class today…” Rarely if ever it’ll be about Professor Bob, Professor Jennifer, or Professor Lucinda (amongst others).

        The other kicker is she’ll then switch to her personal Facebook account and like the post about herself as well as share it to boast on her own page.

        I’m not as high up in the ranks as she is (she is a full-time lecturer, but not an associate or assistant) and so I’m not looking into finding a platform for myself. But I know my fellow coworkers are just as hardworking and love the job and students, and I think both perspective and and current students (even alumni) want to keep up with the entire department.

        The one suggestion I thought of was to rotate it amongst members of the department.

        1. Need to be grave*

          It’s possible she is doing it deliberately but it’s more likely she is stuck with this task coz Noone else will do it and she doesn’t have the time to go researching what other professors are up to and writing articles and taking photos of it. So she goes the less time-consuming route of posting about what she knows and already has photos of – her own work. It’s a lot easier to bring a camera to your own class and write a paragraph about what you did than to liaisewith all the other professors and find out when they will be doing interesting things and take time away from your own research to take photos of it. I bet she has asked her fellow professors loads of times to send her stuff but they never do.

          If it bothers you that much you can volunteer to help – offer to send her one post a week (two decent photos and a paragraph). I bet she’ll be over the moon to have the help. If she refuses for some reason that is the point to get suspicious of her motives.

          1. Social Media ?*

            I have seen it where a professor will write a visitor post on the page, and then later comment a “please repost this to the main wall” to get her attention.

            I have not seen any outsourcing for information on posts.

        2. fposte*

          You can certainly suggest the rotation idea (though be aware some people will drop the ball on that for sure). But I think you need to avoid a suggestion that sounds like “Alice needs to do this extra and on-her-own-time work more extensively and thoroughly!” Reaching out to faculty is a PITA and often they don’t respond (and then get annoyed when they’re not covered); I wouldn’t really ask that of anybody not paid to do this stuff. So I’d make the point about what could be on the Facebook page (and maybe how other departments handle it), not about what Alice should be doing.

  122. katamia*

    For library school, how important is it to have an MLIS or MSLIS compared to a degree that covers basically the same stuff but that has a different name? I’ve found some masters programs that look really interesting but where the degree has a different title (mostly in other countries; I’m really interested in doing it abroad, although I’ve seen a few in the US, too). If I have, say, an MA in Librarianship or an MS in Information Something, might that hurt my chances of getting librarian jobs, or does it not make much of a difference? (Possibly complicating matters is that I’d mostly be applying to jobs abroad, too, but any wisdom from within LibraryLand is welcome to help me figure out how much this might matter.)

    1. fposte*

      Within the U.S., most library world people know that it’s a degree with incredibly non-standardized terminology. I’d be more concerned about translating a foreign degree into the very culture-specific world of U.S. librarianship, but that would matter less in something like academic librarianship than, say, youth services.

      1. katamia*

        Thanks!

        I’m more interested in librarian-type jobs than in specifically working in a library (so I think I could be happy working for a corporation, an NGO, a library, a university, etc. with similar job duties) and youth services is definitely not something I’m interested in anyway, so that’s good to know.

    2. SophieChotek*

      From what I’ve heard, in the U.S. It’s important to get the degree from an accreddited school — I guess some offer library degrees but don’t have the accreddition/approval from…not sure who. That’s what some of my friends told me when I thought about going into library science.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        The accreditation is from ALA (American Library Association), and it’s pretty much required on most professional library jobs. I have seen some job descriptions that are more technology based that possibly list MS in Information Science, those usually have to do with databases and website maintenance.

        Honestly I think there can be issues with getting the degree abroad. At my undergrad we had a librarian from Russia(?) and I believe she had to prove (possibly to ALA) that her degree was equivalent. So maybe look into that first. I know there are a couple of Canadian programs on the approved list. There are also programs that allow for certain types of studying abroad. I did a month in England during my MLIS.

        1. katamia*

          Yeah, the ALA has reciprocity agreements with orgs in other countries (UK, NZ, and a few others), so those are the ones I’m focusing on abroad.

      2. katamia*

        Thanks!

        Yeah, right now I’m basically just going through ALA’s list of accredited programs (and they also have foreign schools in countries where they basically have reciprocity agreements, so I’m going through those too) and seeing which of those look good. I’m really interested in living abroad, but I want to make sure that whatever program I go through is ALA-accredited juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust in case.

        1. GigglyPuff*

          And definitely try to pick one that’s been accredited for a while and more established. I knew someone who was getting a degree from a more recent accreditation, and wow. I looked at some of the paperwork they provided online, like the course syllabus, they completely micromanaged the students and treated them like they were in high school. So just do really good research into the schools because some tend to “specialize” more in different things. Even if they have the course listed doesn’t mean they teach it anymore. Mine tended to lean more towards instructional reference and public librarians. Not a bad thing, just something I found I didn’t want to do.

          1. katamia*

            Thanks!

            I didn’t realize length of accreditation mattered that much, but I’ll definitely keep an eye out for it. I’ve already had to eliminate a couple of otherwise decent-looking schools because even though they technically offered courses I was interested in, they didn’t seem to have them scheduled for the next few years.

          2. another academic librarian*

            Seconding the advice about researching schools’ specializations. Also seconding checking what courses are actually being taught. It seems common for librarians to say it doesn’t matter what school you go to as long as it’s accredited — but really, yes, do pay attention to specializations. Mine specialized in things I wasn’t really interested in, didn’t offer the courses I was interested in. (I wish I’d gone someplace that specialized in instructional reference!)

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      Everyone else has already covered the criticalness of ALA accreditation OR ALA receprocity, so I’ll just say that if you are trying to get a job in the US, then that is absolutely critical.

      I would also bare this in mind: Getting your first job out of Library School is often dependent on skillful networking. Knowing people in the field and knowing people who know people in the field. If you are not planning to work aboard, getting the degree abroad may limit your ability to professionally network and that can hurt when you’re trying to get your first Library Job. That was the experience for a few friends who came to the US with foreign library degrees that I know of.

      May not matter to you, but something I thought I should mention.

      1. katamia*

        Thanks!

        I would prefer to work abroad and will mostly be focusing on applying to jobs abroad unless I see something really phenomenal in a US area I really want to live in, but that’s good to know.

    4. LisaLee*

      I work in an academic library. For almost every position we hire for, we require an ALA-accredited master’s degree. The exact title of the degree doesn’t really matter, since tons of schools have made up their own names for what amounts to essentially the same coursework. For example, one of my coworkers has a Masters of Library and Information Science, another has a Masters of Library Science, another has a Masters in Archival Studies (I think that one’s a bit old) and one has a Masters of Information Technology.

  123. Come On Eileen*

    Dating someone you work with — assuming there’s no rules against it and neither party is in a position of authority over the other, are there any other pitfalls or things to keep in mind? I got matched on Match.com with, of all people, someone who works at my company. We have a few thousand people on campus so it’s not someone I had run into before and we work in different departments. But I sure like him and want to keep dating him. I’ve never dated a co-worker so am curious what sort of rules you all have set for yourself to keep things as smooth as they can be.

    1. Not Karen*

      Personally if you work in different departments, I wouldn’t consider him “someone you work with.”

    2. Graciosa*

      I would be careful of what I will call – a bit tongue-in-cheek – “cross-contamination.”

      Keep your personal life out of work (the best example I saw was a couple in the same function with whom I worked for a year before someone told me that they were married to each other – I would never have guessed).

      Keep your work out of your personal life (yes, sometimes you need to complain a bit at home, but I’d keep it very generic and resist the temptation to treat this as common ground – you need a non-work life, so spend your time together on that).

      Good luck.

    4. A Non E. Mouse*

      As Graciosa mentioned, keep personal life out of work – my husband and I actually met at work, lived together two years, then got married.

      In that time very few people knew we were dating much less living together, and the only people who knew about our engagement and impending wedding were our bosses.

      Two years after our wedding I was at another of our locations for the day and {for redacted reasons} called into the main number there with my cell phone…which showed under my husband’s name. One of the guys on site was all OMG YOU MARRIED XX?!! And it had been two years!

      If you didn’t see us climb into the same vehicle at the end of the day, you’d never know we are married – and I even changed my name! It can be done to keep yourself separate enough at work that no one puts two-and-two together.

  124. Updated News*

    I have written in a few times during a scary process at my job (sorry I don’t remember the UN).

    First our VP left and no one seemed keen to fill the role. Then our most senior analyst left. Then a new team in a diff department was created using our job descriptions. All the leadership kept promising we were fine…

    I didn’t buy it and applied to a promotion in a new Dept. I got the role. This was a year ago.

    I sometimes wondered if I made the right choice since several leadership roles in that division and some in my old department opened up. But I reminded myself that I did the best I could on the info I had.

    Well one of the new leaders left after just a week! They have officially eliminated my old team. They have also just eliminated the main responsibility of the other team in that department. Turns out I made the right choice!

  125. Chronically Ill and Still Working*

    I’m curious what the actual boundaries are on medical problems in the workplace. I see so many responses from Alison and comments from others that seem to say medical problems should never or rarely be mentioned. Since many of my own medical problems are somewhat uncommon and carry minor (not overwhelming) stigma, I make it a point to be open and clear about my medical problems in an effort to counter the minor stigma that remains, and I honestly do think that should in the workplace. I’d never continue to press details on someone who asks me not to and I’d never pressure someone to share their own health issues if they didn’t want to. I simply think it’s important for people to realize that, for example, people in their teens and early twenties can indeed have terrible chronic pain and arthritis; or that they do in fact know, respect, and trust people with mental illnesses (additionally, that PTSD is not just a disease soldiers have and that it isn’t less real in someone not a soldier); or that immune disorders are real and can be devastating and they do personally know people who deal with them; or that for some people, hormonal birth control can be the key to functionality (not all of those apply to me, I’m just making the point more broadly). I don’t think I share gross details, but I want to be able to encourage others to consider what medical issues can mean in the workplace for their coworkers and how widespread certain things really are – that just because someone “looks” healthy doesn’t mean they are. I understand that most activism does not belong in the office, but I don’t think saying “this is what’s in my body and part of my life” should necessarily count on that front. (Note: I’m in a bit of an unusual place here in that I am in the sciences and am moving towards researching one of my own medical problems more broadly, so I have personal experience with the phenomenon I want to research, which might change some of the boundaries for me specifically.)

    1. fposte*

      There really aren’t any actual boundaries per se. I’d say the two main components are 1) does this risk making you more vulnerable than you need or wish to be in the workplace and 2) is this more personal than is appropriate to your workplace culture? Those are dependent on you and your workplace. I would avoid the “teachable moment” approach unless prompted for it; it’s more effective to let people realize that some twentysomethings have arthritis by saying yeah, you had to miss the meeting yesterday because your arthritis flared up.

      1. Chronically Ill and Still Working*

        That’s actually exactly what I meant by “teachable moment” – not sitting people down to explain things small comments in passing. Mentioning “I’m having trouble doing x because my hands hurt” or “I had to bow out of y because of a flare up” or “I really need to sit while we have this conversation right now; my pain is flaring and standing like this is a problem” are exactly what I meant. In addition, I wouldn’t think it would be bad to say “I’m going to the doctor tomorrow looking for a second opinion on my diagnosis of x” or “I’m getting an MRI tomorrow looking for signs of arthritis, not looking forward to it – it’s an unpleasant procedure” and I think those statements are very similar to your example of a passing comment, but I’ve been getting the impression that such things would be frowned upon.

        But thank you, that makes it somewhat more clear. I guess I hadn’t been thinking deeply enough about individual workplace culture.

        1. Feathers McGraw*

          I think you need to stop thinking in terms of teachable moments. That’s where the boundary is. You’re assuming they need teaching, which isn’t good to do.

        2. fposte*

          I think the comments responding to a situation are okay; the second batch of comments are iffier. If we’re in a deeper and more informal personal discussion, sure; if they’re an explanation of a short-notice day off, maybe; but as a casual and unprompted office statements, they’re past my boundaries, anyway. That’s not because they’re health related, but because they’re a level of personal detail, whether it be about your car, your marriage, or your hands, that suggests an expectation of higher tolerance for personal minutiae than most workplaces will offer. The person who excessively volunteers information about her personal life is at risk of being tuned out.

    2. Graciosa*

      The problem that struck me is that you seem to be determined to share personal business in the office – which generally should be subject to professional limits – and are relying on co-workers knowing that they are supposed to *tell you* they want you to stop for you to do so.

      I generally assume co-workers who share unnecessary details of personal difficulties – even medical ones – are doing so because they want to be heard. Courtesy to people who are suffering is supposed to outweigh the fact that I’d rather not hear about it.

      Flatly telling someone that I don’t want to hear about their suffering is going to strike me as pretty rude. I err on the side of hearing them out and providing an appropriate level of support – especially as I generally *have* to work with them in the future (in a social setting, I don’t have to keep seeing them).

      Perhaps you could focus your efforts to convert others to your views – which however well meant, is what you’re trying to accomplish – to social settings rather than in the office? Then you would have some assurance that the people listening to you were genuinely interested rather than trapped by the need to be courteous to a co-worker when they would have preferred to spend the time finishing up the Teapot Report.

      1. Chronically Ill and Still Working*

        I understand where you’re coming from. I wasn’t thinking of it so much as sharing personal business as just saying what was happening (as I mentioned to fposte, one such comment I think of as falling under this umbrella is “I really need to sit down right now; my arthritis pain is flaring up, so can we move this conversation to another part of the office where I can sit?”). Based on the responses my comment got, I seem to have worded things poorly – I didn’t intend to sit someone down to rant to them about my personal struggles. I want to know where the boundary is in saying “I’ve got these specific problems and this is how I might need to change what I’ll do because of them/why I’ve done xx in the past.” (Similar, for example, to someone with PTSD saying “I have PTSD and some things might trigger a panic attack. Please don’t [touch me from behind without warning] [make a joke about xxx around me] [make loud sharp noises near me without warning (like dropping books on my desk)].”)

          1. Windchime*

            Yeah, my back is in terrible shape right now. Everyone knows already so I smile and say, “I’ll stand, thanks” or “let me grab a chair real quick”. That’s really enough information.

        2. Feathers McGraw*

          Also: in our 1:1 today my line manager said she was sorry if she had seemed a bit abrupt lately, she had been coming off some medication and had realised it was affecting her. I said she actually hadn’t been at all abrupt (she’s lovely!) but it was nice of her to check. She said she was glad to hear it but that she had noticed it in herself so wanted to let me know.

          I really didn’t need to know what the medication was and would have been very uncomfortable if she had started telling me about it.

      2. Feathers McGraw*

        The problem that struck me is that you seem to be determined to share personal business in the office – which generally should be subject to professional limits – and are relying on co-workers knowing that they are supposed to *tell you* they want you to stop for you to do so.

        +1oo. You seem to have an agenda you’re determined to push and also sound a bit like you’re assuming everyone else needs to be converted to your message when for all you know they could have some of the conditions you mention. This didn’t happen at work, but I was pretty irked when an acquaintance started intensely lecturing me on how “we” need to do more to fight for the rights of disabled people as “you never know, that could be you some day.” Given it’s actually me NOW (invisible physical illness + mental health problems) I felt very frustrated and very very annoyed.

        Work is where you go to do your job, not to tell everyone about your medical history purely to make a point. If you mention a medical issue because you need your colleagues to know that startling you from behind sets off your ptsd that’s fine. But this sounds like you’re making work into a teaching moment and making assumptions about how much people need to be taught. Be careful about dividing people into “us” and “them”.

        I have a chronic illness and ptsd. It can feel a bit like it’s you against the world, like you have to fight for everything. But that doesn’t mean you need to play out that fight with your colleagues. It’s one thing not to hide your medical issues when relevant and appropriate. It’s a whole other thing if you tell people about them just to ensure those people aren’t Wrong.

    3. animaniactoo*

      If it’s actually relevant to a conversation, I see no reason not to mention it as part of a fact of your life rather than a specifically targeted educational activity. However, I think that the keys have to be a) it’s relevant, and b) it doesn’t come off as an excuse for not being able to do work-related things that people who don’t have an illness/disorder but have similar symptoms of some of them from other sources manage to do.

  126. Emi.*

    Alison, are you still talking work questions from fictional characters? I have several I’ll write up this weekend if so.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I have a bunch in my queue, but haven’t had time to turn to them yet (and can’t promise that I ever will, just with the other mail that piles up).

      3. Kyrielle*

        Or maybe a “fictional characters’ work questions” open thread some fine holiday weekend or the like?

        …probably either would get too little response or be a moderation nightmare, but I admit it sounds fun nonetheless.

  127. Red*

    I’m hoping you guys have some advice about one of my tasks at work. I work in a department of 7 people spread out across 3 sites. Our manager is rarely at my site and has so much going on, she doesn’t always respond to emails.

    Well, my task is to create a calendar that lists everyone’s PTO so we can share it with the other departments we work with. I can’t actually approve PTO, though. My boss doesn’t respond to emails asking what PTO she’s approved, and my coworkers drag their feet about telling me their PTO and get cranky when they do email me back. Any advice on how to actually accomplish making this calendar every month?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      We have a shared department calendar on SharePoint. You could use any calendar platform, but the idea is people go in individually and block out their PTO. We also have ours set up so that you put your business travel on there too, but it is a different color. This system works well, and since no one seems to be approving your PTO, it sounds like it could work for your group, too.

      We get generous PTO, and our managers don’t require that it be approved. They just have to be aware of it via the calendar. As long as the rules are established and people who don’t follow the rules are talked with separately, it should be fine.

      1. Red*

        I would honestly cry tears of joy if we could do something like that, but PTO does have to be approved (just not by me) and people here don’t have the faintest idea of how to use a computer. One of my coworkers makes spreadsheets in Word and wrote emails in all caps, red, bold letters for her first month here.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Can you ask your co-workers to send it to you as “requested PTO” and use different shades for “requested” and “approved”? Because I think the basis is a general sense of when people will be out of the office/would be a good time to request PTO. So even having the *request* would be good to be able to put on the calendar at this point, and it might actually make it easier for your boss to be able to just go into the calendar herself and change the color to indicate approval at the time she does it rather than having to dig up the information when you e-mail a request to her.

      Another thought – can it be setup so that HR notifies you when a request has been approved, and you can put it on the calendar then? So the loop goes Boss -> HR -> you?

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      How do people get their PTO approved? Is it via email or something else?

      If it’s email, can you see if your IT department will set up a separate email alias for PTO requests that goes to both you and your boss so you can see all the requests?

    2. animaniactoo*

      Awesome, and I saw a couple of followups from the letter writer also. I’d love an update on this one and I really really hope it goes well.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I am awed by so many people trying to help this boss help his employee.

      Boss-OP, if you are still reading, I hope everything works out well for you and your employee.

  129. Katie the Fed*

    Remember the discussion earlier this week about mental health days? I’m taking one today, and it’s amazing. So far I’ve done….nothing. I’m still in my pajamas, eating popcorn because I want it.

    I should do this more often.

    1. Intrepid*

      That sounds amazing. Kudos for taking one– especially because you manage people, no? That’s a great example to set.

    4. tigerStripes*

      Sometimes I take vacation days as staycations and just relax at home. It’s usually really nice!

  130. Persephone Mulberry*

    I found out earlier this week that I was the only person who applied for my job. Although the work is interesting and I’m kicking butt at it, this still makes me feel a little weird. Would it make you feel weird?

    1. Amadeo*

      I did feel that way a little bit when I applied for the one I had now. I think there were other applicants but I was the only one who had most of the qualifications they needed/where looking for. I felt a little weird, but I’m doing well enough in the job.

      I expect the people that would have been actual rock stars didn’t stay here though, they went to the nearby city.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Yes, I’d have to spend some time reassuring myself that I got the job because I was *capable* of doing the job and my being the only applicant didn’t play into that. I’d have to give them the benefit of the doubt that if I wasn’t qualified, they’d have reposted the job and done more outreach to fill it.

    3. Chaordic One*

      Was the job widely advertised? If so, then I’d feel a bit weird, too.

      OTOH, if was only advertised internally or on a rarely visited company website, then I’d feel lucky that I didn’t have very much competition. If you hadn’t applied, they certainly would have gotten around to advertising the position more widely.

  131. animaniactoo*

    Sigh. The server my department works off of has been running out of room for over a year. We also knew there were some occasional issues with the recovery backup.

    Yesterday, I found out how bad it all is in a lot more detail and now I have to go have a conversation with my boss because the owners of my company are not sharing information appropriately which would allow us to take our own stopgap measures against the possibility of failures while they hammer out the details of replacing the system.

    When I say failures, I mean that there is now a greater than 5% chance that the whole system could go down, unrecoverably, and that it would take probably a week to write all the info on the server back to it from the recovery backups – and that might not even have the past 3 or 4 days worth of work written to it if there’s been a recent backup failure (it’s happened more than once in the past year, caught more often now because the IT guys are on top of checking to see if it happens but – they’re busy. They could miss it for a few days again).

    So basically, the whole thing is being held together with scotch tape, elmer’s glue and a bunch of paperclips. We can easily take the step of saving to our desktops and then writing up to the server to safeguard against this – except that the info isn’t being shared because they don’t want to “create a scare”.

    [banging head on desk]

    1. Newby*

      You could try to just make that general practice. Don’t mention server issues at all and say that everyone should have backups on their computers for everything from the past week/month/other arbitrary time frame to ensure that should anything ever happen to the server, they have another backup. You don’t need to mention that you have any particular reason to be concerned. It is just good practice.

      1. animaniactoo*

        Actually, I can’t just say that because there was a long time period where people had stuff on their computers and did not have it up on the server despite repeated urging to copy up to the server as soon as you were done with a file, and there was a major push to switch to just working off the server – which was backed up! and we needed this stuff to be backed up! and everybody have access to it! – and not have files on our desktops.

        It’s a good thought, but it won’t work here unfortunately. However, the convo is with my boss to figure out what we’re saying and why, and also because IT is ready to let her go put pressure on the owners if there isn’t significant movement on the replacement system in a fairly short timeframe.

        1. JustaTech*

          Start by doing the best you can (save all of your stuff locally) and if you know who is most likely to have the most critical data, maybe suggest they back it up too?
          We had this happen at my company: we got ransomware’d and someone high up and far away decided to just wipe everything. Fine, OK, that’s one way to deal with it. The problem was that the company who hosted our backups had never tested the system (and hadn’t written it correctly in the first place) and it took a *month* to restore everything. After 2 weeks it hung and they had to stop, re-wipe and start over. Oh, and everything came back randomly (or not at all), without any prioritization to the stuff we needed to work versus old reports that could wait.

          It was a NIGHTMARE.

          So I’d make the conversation one of “If we lose the server it will take a minimum of 7 days to get everything back, and we will likely lose 4 days of work and all of that lost time and work will cost $X.”

          People who are cavalier about data storage, particularly stuff you can literally never, ever get back, make me crazy.

          1. animaniactoo*

            Yeah, the saving stuff locally (back to on our desktops) has to be our priority. The thing for me here is that while I am often our department’s liaison with IT, and am an unofficial team lead in many ways, it would be inappropriate for me to just tell my co-workers to start saving locally again – that has to be her directive. So I know what I need to say, it’s just the argh of this situation and now the convo has been moved to Monday – ended up not being able to meet with her today.

            Fortunately, we DO know that the recovery backup will work as we’ve pulled stuff off it after accidentally overwriting a file.

            However, yes, due to the way the server is organized, and the fact that we will not be the only ones looking to recover stuff, what we’ve just been working on will not be the priority order for reloading the server. I nailed all that down with IT to make sure I had a clear picture of how it would be loaded back up, that it would actually go back in the order it is now we wouldn’t have to manually sort stuff back into correct folders, etc. in order to make sure I know what I’m talking about when I go have the convo here.

            Casual with data storage – I do think the owners of my company are having a big old blindspot about how bad the situation is, and exactly how bad it will be if the server has a complete failure. We’ve been running stopgap measures for so long we’re running out of stopgaps. I’m fairly sure 90% of the reason the IT guys are being so open with me is that I was so clear with them about what was going on when they started 6 months ago. Like “Yeah, you’re going to end up buying that extra temporary hard drive to get us some breathing room on the storage issue, and here’s how you have to present this to get the big problem fixed, because you’ll stall out otherwise.”

            And just because I’m a brat and I can’t resist making you shiver – we have one backup and it’s onsite.

        2. Observer*

          Actually, I would do something different, if your boss has your back. Get a NAS (or even just a decent external hard drive on your computer) in your office (depending on size they can go for under $100) and some backup software that backs up all of the work from your department each night. If the system goes down, you may be out a day’s work, but that would be it – and restore itself would be fast (although it might take a while to get a server up.) Also, if you have a NAS, then things like documents (that includes spreadsheets and presentations) and some types of databases can be directly shared from the NAS till a new server is up.

          That gives you some security while not getting people into bad habits again.

          1. Observer*

            Oh, and you can do this yourself, so your overstretched IT doesn’t need yet another thing to do – but if you can, let them know.

  132. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    So, I am a legal contractor.

    I just figured out I owe the federal IRS about $650, and based on the payment plan, I have to pay $250 in this month.

    I also just got an offer for a better contract job, making more than enough more each week to easily pay the tax burden. Also, casual dress and more flexible hours. Starts 3/6.

    But, it starts a week or two before my current job is done. This niche labor market is easy to find work in, and somewhat flexible, but frowns on leaving contracts early. Still, maybe one person from each work group (think the size of a small class), does it each job I’ve been on before. No, I can’t start the new thing later. And yes, I will take the better job.

    But do I tell my current manager before I leave, or just on my last day? It’s pretty unusual for anyone to get fired, but there’s a nonzero chance that if I tell, I will get kicked off the project before the last day, as an example to others. And I can’t afford a gap in paychecks.

    What would you do?

    1. animaniactoo*

      With the better pay, could you afford to take a week’s paycheck hit if you got removed immediately upon notification? Just exploring the range of no-gap availability.

      Okay, you said a non-zero chance. How likely do you think it is that it will happen? Because there’s a lot of room between “non-zero” and “pretty likely”. Do you think it would make a difference to tell your manager you can’t afford the gap but are taking the risk because you really don’t want to leave them completely in the lurch?

      And yay! Congrats on better job!

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Nope, the new pay would only cover about 2-3 days’ gap, once I pay the tax bill, and I wouldn’t have it at the time, see?

        1. animaniactoo*

          Yeah – what about your sense of the rest? Because what I would do would be completely dependent on that.

          1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

            Well, the manager is aware of the current market, competition,and the need for higher pay, and isn’t mean, but still, I might tell her on Tuesday or Wednesday evening. Some notice rather than none, but wouldn’t leave more than I can afford if she tells me to get out.

          2. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

            Well, people that have left haven’t been immediately terminated before, but that’s when they’ve gone to permanent work. But my manager has a good sense of the market and worries about getting the work done in time for court deadlines. So I was thinking to tell her on Tuesday or Wednesday evening, when the gap would be manageable, and explain it as “but I know how important meeting these deadlines are, so to help, I will stay through Friday and work as efficiently as I can.”

            1. animaniactoo*

              I would maybe apologize for the lack of notice and excuse it to really hoping that you were going to be able to delay the start date, but it’s very clear to you now that won’t be possible.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If you tell her on your last day, you will burn the bridge and not be able to use this job as a reference (it’s also just not cool to do) — so you should factor that into the calculation you need to make here.

  133. The M-Word*

    I ‘m having issues with a coworker, John. I am junior to him and receive work from him. Most of my work also comes from other CWs in addition to John and my supervisor.

    The issues stem primarily from workflow. Something that should take 10 minutes ends up taking an hour because John avoids my questions or won’t give me the information I need or John doesn’t let me do my work and tries to do it himself. I’m also wasting a lot of mental energy constantly checking up on if I need to do X or Y for the teapots and if they are ready yet and if there is anything I can do. I’m told no, but I know I’m going to get dumped with the entire thing and be given an unreasonable time frame to complete them, ignoring the fact that I can’t drop everything else I’m doing. And this isn’t something I can just do and send out without his approval/information.

    Most recently, he yelled to me earlier this week when I passed along information from one of our consultants and he wasn’t happy with the cost of the teapots we are being told. I was really taken aback and stammered through the rest of the conversation. But I don’t think John thinks anything of it.

    So I want to bring up my workflow concerns with my supervisor (who also supervisors John), but I’m having trouble coming up with the language. To make it more complicated, I found out John has been forwarding/bccing minor mistakes I’ve made to our supervisor without giving me a chance to correct them (there was a single thing that had two different mistakes). Supervisor has brushed them off and told John that if something is unusual that John should let me know or do it himself. So I don’t want to come across as immature/spiteful.

    Advice on how to handle the conversation and language I should use.

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      I’d frame it to the boss as, “I’ve been getting a number of last-minute requests lately where I could have gotten the work done if I’d been involved earlier in the process, but fixing things late in the game would take me away from doing X, Y, and Z. What should I do when I get these requests?”

      If your boss is wise she’ll try and find out who is causing this problem the most.

      She may tell you that dealing with last-minute snafus is just part of the job (if this happens, you need to figure out whether you want to continue working there). She may tell you that it’s okay to push back and say no to these requests (in which case John gets to stew in his own mess). Or she may say that you need to involve yourself in the process sooner, in which case you can say that when you’ve tried to do this, you’ve met with resistance getting the inputs you need. Again, if she is wise she’ll know she needs to have a chat with John about being more forthcoming with you.

      You can also reinforce this with John yourself: “If I don’t have X answer by Y date, I will not be able to help with Z project.” And then when he tries to dump it in your lap, “I’m not able to do Z by Y, but I can do [whatever part of the task you can accomplish without breaking your back in the time remaining].”

  134. It's Friday, finally*

    Just got back from a much needed vacation. I rarely take days off because it seems like either the rest of the staff is always out (school, sick, kid functions, whatever) or there is something critical going on that I need to be here for. Before I left, everyone was given projects to be completed before I got back with everything discussed in detail. Everyone understood what they had to do, and no one had questions for me when I asked.

    Johnny and Jimmy were also given a talk about taking responsibility for the work assigned to them and for recurring tasks, and that they shouldn’t need current prompting to get the work done.

    When I got back after 1 week out, Janie had badgered Johnny into doing one of his tasks (which I specifically asked her not to intervene with), Johnny did all of his other tasks plus one of Jimmy’s because Jimmy did not want to do it, and Jimmy did 2 out of the 5 tasks assigned to him. Jimmy, although he took notes on the critical project, said he completely forgot about it. The notes were still sitting in front of him when I got back a week later.

    No one had time constraints where they couldn’t do the work, they just had lame excuses as to why it didn’t get done.

    As a manager, how do I get people to take responsibility for their assignments? I often feel more like a nagging parent than a manager. Unfortunately, because of office politics the only recourse I have is a strong reprimand.

    1. fposte*

      First, I would dig deeper into those office politics. Presumably if an employee murdered the boss in the parking lot, they’d find a way to fire her. So what is that way? Right now you have virtually no leverage. Can you at least affect any upward trajectories?

      And in the mean time, talk to them one on one. Remind Janie that she was told not to intervene and yet she did, and ask her why. (Does she suffer if Johnny’s task doesn’t get done and does she know that he won’t do it if you aren’t there? Then it’s tough for her to watch her own job get made harder for her.) Ask Jimmy to explain and walk you throw the workflow practice that means the major thing he was tasked with got somehow forgotten for two weeks, and require him to change his workflow if necessary.

      And ask people where they want to go in this job. Right now they’re throwing up obstacles to their own advancement–do they want to advance? How could you help them advance if their performance merited it?

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      By attaching consequences to actions, up to and including firing. Consistently shirking responsibilities should mean a conversation about “X, Y, and Z are your job duties. Can you commit to doing those things? If not, we should talk about whether it makes sense for you to stay in this job.”

      And you can absolutely make taking ownership one of the things your employees need to do to keep their jobs. “I want to emphasize that X, Y, and Z are YOUR jobs, and part of your job is managing your time to make sure I don’t have to ask you where those things are.”

      If the problems are annoying but not enough to warrant trying to replace them (think hard about whether that’s true; a lot of us are too nice for our own good when evaluating this sort of thing), you can still say, “Know that if you don’t fix this, I can’t consider advancing you in this organization/I will consider it when I’m deciding how to divide this year’s raise pool/etc.” I once phrased this to an employee who was well meaning but often late on deadlines (because he would spend way more time doing background research and rechecking his work than was necessary), “If you want me to promote you, make me believe that if I ask for X by Y date, I’m going to get X by Y date.” He finally realized that his extra tinkering was causing me to lose confidence in him, and he shaped up.

      1. It's Friday, finally*

        Firing is not an option. One is the grandson of a board member, and the other the boss wants to keep, because the overall quality of work is good.

        I had the YOUR job speech with both Johnny and Jimmy before I left for vacation. Didn’t seem to help.

        It’s a small company, which means more duties as time goes by, with hopefully more pay, but no advancement in the typical sense. No performance appraisals either.

        To answer fposte’s question, no Johnny’s work on this does not affect Janie at all.

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          UGH, the “grandson of a board member” changes everything. I’ve been there with junior hires who are related to clients and your hands are tied. I feel for you.

          The one your boss wants to keep, though, I think you can still say “you don’t advance in this organization unless you do X, Y, and Z.” Even if you can’t fire them, this may be motivating to someone who thinks she should be climbing the ladder quickly.

        2. fposte*

          Can you institute performance appraisals? Right now it seems like there’s not a lot in it for the employees to perform better. Also, if Jimmy’s the grandkid can you wall him off? If he’s got a sinecure and doesn’t care how badly he screws up, just give him stuff that can’t be screwed up (Jimmy, Champion Pencil Organizer) and face the fact you have a two-person unit.

  135. Can't Sit Still*

    I posted a couple of weeks ago about an odd interview I had and how it seemed they had already made a decision. Well, they had. I guess they just wanted to make sure I didn’t have 3 heads or something, because I got the job! I’m looking forward to working with a stable team in a growing company, as opposed to working in a dying industry with a steadily contracting team. It’s a lateral move, but it’s full time, not contract. It’s a position I would be comfortable spending the next 3 – 5 years in, with room for growth.

    Having a steady paycheck will be wonderful! I’m also looking forward to being able to enjoy holidays again, since I’ll be getting paid for them now.

    2. Princess Carolyn*

      Well gosh, I would hope this employer wouldn’t discriminate against you if you did have three heads.

  136. Intrepid*

    Two months ago, I changed teams at my organization, taking over Gollum’s role. Gollum had left quite a bit of a mess, and there was a MASSIVE project (a roadtrip, if you will) coming up, which would normally be FAR out of my comfort zone or what anyone could expect of me. But I pulled out all the stops and really impressed Sauron (Gollumn’s boss). In the two months since I came on board, I got two levels of bosses between me and Sauron (say, Snape and Headmaster Umbridge). The new headmaster says she really doesn’t do roadtrip planning, so even though she came on board a month ago, she doesn’t have a good sense of my job. Snape has only been here a week (starting barely before the roadtrip), and I think he’s alright, but he does report to Umbridge and it’s hard to tell.

    The roadtrip was last weekend, and went really well. Now we’re back in the office, and I’m still finding bits of Gollumn’s mess.

    Now, Sauron announced that he’s leaving. Given that Snape and Umbridge are totally new to this story, what’s the best way for me to reassure them that my standards are much higher than Gollum’s, and that this mess (once sorted) will not reappear? I’ve asked my former bosses to come by and sing my praises, and I’m making sure to dot my is and cross my ts. I’m also trying to keep them in the loop as I find things, both because I often need their sign-off and because they’ve said they want that information… but I worry that my transparency is hurting me.

    How do I show them that I’m a great employee (per all previous bosses) when I’m standing in the middle of a mess?

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      1) Excellent names.

      2) Maybe schedule a 1-on-1 (separately) with Umbridge and Snape so you can sit down and say, a) here’s the situation I came on board to, b) here’s what I’ve done since, c) here’s what I plan to do to finish transitioning, and follow it up with asking them how they see you moving forward in the role. They didn’t have a chance to establish this as your manager(s?) beforehand, so it might be a good restart place for everyone involved.

  137. Depressed Paralegal*

    I know people ask about job-hopping a lot but I really need some guidance.

    I’ve been at my current position as a paralegal/legal assistant for 2.5 months. I got the job through a recruiter. My resume was on her desk for months and I was getting interviews but I got the feeling she was just trying to place me anywhere so she could get her fee. Ideally, I want to get out of the legal profession all together (I hate it and I hate admin work; I’ve been in the profession for five years) but I really needed a job and didn’t feel like I could be picky in what job I landed.

    The recruiter ended up getting me a job working for a solo practitioner who’s rarely in the office and I often have little to nothing to do. When I do have things to do, it’s low-level admin work, i.e. answering the occasional phone call, filing, shredding documents, etc. It’s mind-numbing, I’m not learning anything, and there’s no room for advancement. I am depressed and feel isolated. This gig reminds me of a receptionist job I had in college 16 years ago. I am pushing 40; this is not where I want to be, doing more or less the same thing I was doing at 20.

    When can I bail? Do I go back to the recruiter? I feel like she didn’t listen to me when I told her what I wanted in a job (i.e. a larger firm with room for advancement, no receptionist duties, etc.). I was at my last legal assistant job for 4.5 years. (I quit due to major burnout and for my mental health — I was hospitalized for depression twice while at my old job.). Before that, I’ve spent at least two years at my previous positions. (I was a writer/editor in a former life. I miss it.) I am not a job-hopper. Just a depressed legal assistant who needs to get out of a rut and out of the legal profession. Help!

    1. AliceBD*

      If you literally have nothing to do and can’t improve the office in any way (better filing or something), can you try to do freelance writing/editing work to start getting back into that field and be happier? I know nothing about the legal profession or being a paralegal so I don’t know if that is something you could do. (Also know nothing about working with a recruiter so I don’t want to say something wrong.) It sounds like you need to stay employed, which is understandable, but maybe you could also job search while there? Good luck!

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Good suggestion–boss isn’t there much, there’s not much to do, you have all kinds of time to search/build your portfolio back up. I did this at OldExjob when things got really boring and everything died around three o’clock; I downloaded source articles for my content job at home, and I worked on my posts on a flash drive at my desk. It made me look busy and kept me from screaming even though there was nothing to do.

  138. Maileo*

    So I’m job hunting! Do you all have any tips on how to suss out if the team you’ll potentially manage has serious issues? Any tips greatly appreciated. Twice now I’ve had roles where I’m hired as a manager with responsibility for a small team…only to find out on both occasions that the higher-ups brought me in to ‘shake things up’ because of serious issues with the teams in both organisations. If I had known this at interview stage I wouldn’t have taken either job!

    I know all workplaces have their quirks and there are ‘strong characters’ everywhere but I’m at a career stage where I want to avoid drama, not be drafted in unawares to fix it.

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      Unfortunately the only reliable way I’ve found out to do this is to find someone who’s worked there or is still working there but has NO personal stake in whether or not you take the job. I’ve tried interviewing with a bunch of different people on a team to see whether people’s descriptions of the place jived with each other — once I got fooled that way because my interviewers had been explicitly told to sell me on the company and gloss over issues.

      I’ve also had an experience where the interview seemed incredibly positive and I felt like I really clicked with the team…but after the fact I spoke to two different people who had previously worked there and both warned me that it was crazypants. Only time in my career I’ve ever rescinded my acceptance of an offer.

  139. AliceBD*

    There is one coworker I’m about to reach BEC stage with. Her job is teapot design coordinator. She has a good eye for teapot design and her designs work well.

    But she is also in charge of all of the other teapot designers. She is a terrible manager — stuff gets done late a bunch because she doesn’t give assign it to the teapot designers in time, she doesn’t communicate well, and a lot of other issues. (All of the teapot designers on the individual contributed level are excellent at their jobs, communicate well, etc. No one has any issues with them, and we frequently feel sorry for them.)

    Besides being a bad manager, she wants everything to work the way it works in her head. Today one of the other teapot designers had to spend 10 minutes (not exaggerating) explaining over and over in little words why her idea wouldn’t work. The equipment doesn’t do that. Yes it would be great if the equipment did that, but it doesn’t have that capability, so we can’t do it. She is like this for basically everything. She also gives opinions on stuff that she has no idea about or background in, so is usually wrong.

    One of the individual teapot designers told me that the coordinator wants the world to adapt to her, instead of learning how the business works and adapting her workflows etc to the existing company. She’s been here 4 years so newness is not an excuse, and I think the description is spot on.

    I am also at the individual contributor level. My boss (who is at her level) knows the individual issues I have with her that are work related (xyz was late because coordinator did not assign it to a teapot designer in a timely manner, so something that was put in the system 2 weeks early and takes a week to do was given to the designer with 3 days until the due date), and the people she manages have gone up the chain with issues. Luckily I mostly work with the individual teapot designers, not the coordinator, and she’s a nice person in general so it’s not hard to make small talk with her in the break room or anything. I just wanted to vent.

  140. Uncertain about this*

    Is online graduate school at a (regionally accredited, brick and mortar, non-profit) college seen as less impressive than in-person graduate school at that same college?

    I don’t mean in terms of quality of education, I mean perceptions by future employers, etc.

    2. Princess Carolyn*

      In most cases, I’m not sure an employer would know one way or the other. If it says, for example, that you got your masters at Arizona State University, you’re not obligated to add “online” in parentheses.

    4. periwinkle*

      Your diploma and transcript will say Teapot State University. There’s no asterisk with a footnote saying the degree was earned online.

      My master’s program (public non-profit university) was offered both online and on campus; since I lived on the opposite side of the country, I opted for the online version. No big deal. It was rigorous, challenging, and thoroughly awesome.

      1. JustaTech*

        The dean of my online master’s program (state university) had to fight the department chair to *not* have that asterisk, but after the first cohort graduated the chair was all “this is the best thing ever, look how many more students are in our department and paying tuition!” (Although the word “online” is in the name of the program, we all still get the same Master’s as the on-campus folks.)

  141. AnonymousForThis*

    I’m so glad this is up and I’m relatively early. I’ve got a doozy! I’m going to change my usual handle to try to remain anonymous.

    I found out (second-hand) earlier this week that the reason an employee that was assigned to our department part time decided to go full time to his other department: he overheard one of the employees in our area directly quote another employee as saying “black b!tch”.

    From what I’ve been told, he (the employee who overheard the comment) believes the rest of the department (including me) plus a member of another department were present when this occurred. Our cubicle walls can make it hard to determine who is actually present.

    I do not remember this conversation. The subject is vaguely familiar, so it’s likely I *was* present but not actively involved (just at my desk as it took place around me); however I do not recall the words used or who all was present. The “b!tch” part I do remember, I remember that it was quoted conversation, and I remember that it wasn’t in the “can you believe she said this?!” vein but more “hardy har har”. I’m remarkably desensitized to “bitch” and so it alone doesn’t ping my radar.

    If the employee that moved desk says the words “black b!tch” were spoken, I believe him. I believe I was present and either engaged somewhat in the conversation, or at my desk in a position to hear them. I do not actively remember it happening, but I believe him.

    He (again, ALL of this is from a source that supposedly heard it from him directly) stewed on this a few weeks, decided that between the actual conversation and none of us present jumping in to say “hey, not cool” that he didn’t feel welcome here, and took action to remove himself from the situation.

    I’m confused – because I just don’t recall it happening, only impressions of something close to it; I’m mortified that it happened and I either wasn’t being sensitive enough to catch it or (worse GAWD SO MUCH WORSE) caught it and dismissed it so readily that I didn’t speak out against it; and I’m reeling because I don’t know how to fix it.

    WHAT DO I DO?! He didn’t tell ME this, he told someone else who then relayed it to me. Do I approach the guy (hard to ever catch him alone, he’s in an open seating arrangement now) and explain that I don’t remember it happening, I’m mortified and so very very sorry my lack of action made him feel unwelcome? Do I email it to him so he can read without having to see me face-to-face? Do I nuke myself and salt the earth (which is what I’ve felt like doing since I heard this)? HELP!

    *From what I can gather he did not go to HR and this is probably the safest move for him, for lots of reasons I cannot get into without identifying myself but also, this happened to HIM so he gets to decide how to handle it aside from moving, not me.

    1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      This is tough, I’m sorry. I get wanting to explain yourself to him. But maybe just tell him in passing you miss having him on the team and he is always welcome back if he doesn’t like his new position?

    2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      Also, stay on alert for things like this from your other teammates to see if it is a common occurrence. If so, maybe start coming up with a plan to address it

    3. LizB*

      I think giving him a whole long explanation about how you’re mortified and don’t remember would run the risk of making it all about you. I think you could at most send a quick email saying something like, “Hey, we miss having you on the team! I heard through the grapevine that you decided to move back to your old area because of some offensive language that made you feel unwelcome – I feel terrible that that happened and I didn’t respond by calling it out. Please know that you’re always welcome to sit by me, and I’m going to be more aware in the future of the language being used around me. No need to respond to this email if you don’t want. Have a great day!”

      1. Chriama*

        I like your phrasing. Also, I couldn’t tell if OP is a coworker or the supervisor. If a coworker, then the sentiment, while lovely, is unlikely to move him.

        1. AnonymousForThis*

          Just a coworker! But I do love the phrasing, I think I’ll adapt it and send him the note. I just feel awful!

          Thanks for the replies.

    4. Observer*

      I don’t think approaching him is really useful at this point. Rather, think about what you can do moving forward to react more appropriately should something like that happen again.

      And, next time you have an occasion to speak to him or email him, you could say something like “I know this is water under the bridge, and we can’t undo the past. But, I do want you to know that I am utterly mortified that such a conversation could happen around me and it would just pass me by!”

  142. Jessen*

    Question whether I’m right to feel uneasy or if I’m just overreacting:

    My company has a high deductible insurance policy. This year they raised the deductible. They said explicitly that they had to raise the deductible because several people met the deductible last year and it was costing them money. They also talked during my training about how wonderful having a high deductible plan was – one of their big selling points was that with the low copays “you’re not paying because someone else is spending a lot of money on their health.”

    As someone who is probably going to meet that deductible by mid-summer, I have to say this makes me a bit uncomfortable. I can’t point to anything definite though. Is this a little weird or am I just overreacting?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      When my employer start selling something this hard, I’m sure it’s because it’s not in my best interest.

      And yeah, I see why you’re uncomfortable. It’s because they’re presenting health spending like it’s some choice you make – oh, just thought I’d go out and get my hip reconstructed this weekend!

    2. fposte*

      I think they’re talking about it pretty stupidly, but high deductible health plans are great if you don’t spend much on health. They’re also good if they allow you access to an HSA and you can use it. In just about any insurance plan somebody ends up with the short end of the stick, though, and they could have acknowledged that better.

        1. Jessen*

          I do have a hsa, but I’m definitely noticing that my paycheck takes a pretty big hit to fund the HSA enough to cover my health expenses. We’re talking 2500 a year on a 13/hr job, and that doesn’t even cover vision or dental.

          1. animaniactoo*

            The thing about HSAs though is this means you are actually *saving* quite a lot of money because you are not spending $2500 of $3100 in earned dollars, you’re spending $2500 of $2500 earned dollars. Seeing it reflected as a lower paycheck can make it hard to see that kind of connection, but that’s the essential setup of having the money come out pre-tax. All an HSA really does is in terms of your overall budget is to replace the deduction for that amount on your tax return whether you’re itemizing your taxes or not.

            1. Jessen*

              Depends on what you’re comparing the savings against. Against my previous state health exchange policy, it’s still significantly more expensive per year.

      2. Jessen*

        Yeah, I understand how a lot of people might benefit from the plan. What I object to is feeling like my choice to use healthcare that’s more expensive is costing other people money. Look, I didn’t choose my health problems, I just manage them as best I can, which happens to involve expensive medications and expensive specialist visits.

    3. Princess Carolyn*

      This would bother me too. (If I had a high-deductible plan, I would very likely meet the deductible halfway through the year.) You’re probably better off just letting it go, but I would be tempted to say something like “Are you saying we’re not supposed to use our benefits?”

    4. H.C.*

      You’re right to feel unease; if your employer’s aim is to have no one met their deductible limit, then why even bother having an insurance policy at all (or why not just get one for catastrophic coverage)?

    5. Emi.*

      It doesn’t sound to me like the “you’re not paying because someone else is spending a lot of money on their health” is supposed to be a dig at people with lots of health expenses–it sounds more like “other people’s bad luck doesn’t become your bad luck,” which is a reasonable thing to look for. Does that help?

    6. JustaTech*

      Saying that they were raising the deductible because “several people met the deductible last year and it was costing them money” is really, really not cool. Depending on the size of your organization they may have just outed several people as having expensive medical issues, which is certainly nasty if borderline inappropriate.

      When my company started offering a high-deductible/HSA plan the folks who came in to give the talk kept saying how it saved so much money . Finally someone asked if the money we were saving by picking the HD/HSA plan over the traditional PPO plan would go into our HSA. “No, of course not.” “So it’s saving the company money but not saving *me* money.” “Uh, yes.”

    7. Not So NewReader*

      My late husband was an insurance adjuster. He explained that insurance companies HAVE to have more money coming in than they have going out. This can be done in a number of ways. You have found one of those ways.

      So they present it to you that someone else is spending a lot of money on their health. NO. You are spending a lot of money until you reach your deductible limit.

      Yes, they meant you and several other people and the insurance company lost money on you guys last year. So they raised the deductible. This is pretty normal in the industry. I am not sure why you would be uncomfortable, it’s pretty standard.

      Your company could look for a bigger insurance company that might lower your costs.

      1. Jessen*

        It feels uncomfortable in a workplace environment because it comes perilously close to “you, as an employee, are costing the company money and are responsible for your fellow employees having to pay more, because you had to use your healthcare to, you know, function enough to do your job.”

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Well that is basically what is happening. The higher cost people drive the premiums. I see no need to point it out to people, though. OP could say, “well what do you want me to do about it?” But it’s probably pointless to say anything. The company could look for a larger group of insured people. The insurance companies spread the costs out over the group. If they have a larger insurance company with more customers, they might get a lower rate.

          It pisses me off that companies still make people work long hours, deal with abusive bosses, pay people a non-living wage and then wonder why the employees are stressed out and driving up insurance costs.

          1. Jessen*

            As a practical matter, it also makes one wonder about “cost-saving measures.” It makes me a little more worried about talking about my health problems at work, because I’m worried about being singled out as a person who’s costing the company extra money. I’m not valuable enough that I couldn’t be easily replaced with someone who didn’t have major health issues.

  143. Former (?) Lawyer*

    Hey Open Thread.

    I am just about to kick off my career change job search and I have come across a big stumbling block, I hope someone out there in AAM commentariat can help me. For context, I’m a qualified lawyer, I have just got into the final stages of a part time Masters in Computer Science (all exams done and passed, thesis in progress). I want to apply for software engineering jobs (entry level, of course).

    I really don’t have confidence in my resume. My law resume is decent – I have had great feedback on it while I was looking for stopgap law jobs – but for tech jobs I have to chop it down by half (it is… 3 pages, and have got it down to 2 so far) and it doesn’t read well to me any more. I can’t chop out my legal section any more without missing key transferable skills, and my tech section simply details my modules and what project I am working on (machine learning, which is 100% necessary for the jobs I want).

    I’m not confident my resume will get me interviewed, and despite desperately needing to switch industry for practical and personal reasons (including a looming international move in late 2018 which still being in law won’t be helpful for), I haven’t been able to stop tinkering with my resume and start sending it out! I know for a fact that I have missed out on opportunities that would have been life changing for me. Any tips on this?

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Is it possible to aggregate your legal experience into a skills section and/or to have something in your cover letter about your career change that highlights whatever relevant past experience you wouldn’t otherwise have on your resume? I get wanting to keep in transferable skills, but it seems like you might want more context when applying for entry level in a new field than would show up on a resume.

  144. YRH*

    I’m currently the second attorney at a small law firm that primarily does flat fee case work. My boss (the other attorney here) is in the process of figuring out how to convert me from hourly to salary. Basically, we are in the middle of our busy season and she doesn’t want to pay me overtime. We agree on my salary but the sticking point is benefits.

    She proposed talking away my health insurance subsidy ($1200 a year) and instead giving me 3 paid days off (the cast equivalent of $600). I think this is ridiculous considering I fully expect to work 7 day weeks and long hours on the days I work for the next 6ish weeks, not to mention that could happen at other points during the year. I did a lot of research before our meeting and the standard, including small firms, firms in our practice area, and other flat fee firms, was 10 days plus all federal holidays or 15 days plus all firm holidays. Since the firm doesn’t take all federal holidays off, I countered with 15 days plus firm holidays and discussed the research I had done. She was shocked this was what other firms did.

    I do not think my boss is being malicious with her offer or anything like that. I’m her first full time employee and she has pretty much always worked for herself. I just think she’s clueless when it comes to what’s standard.

    We are talking again later today. If she still seems really uncomfortable with giving me a reasonable amount of time off, my plan is ask to “buy out” my health insurance and get 6 guaranteed days (I’ve purchased my own health insurance for years at this point, so I’m comfortable with it not being employer provided). After that, I am planning to suggest that for every hour I work over 40 in a week, I get an hour of paid time off or that I get paid my hourly rate for every hour I work over 40 in the form of a quarterly bonus. I am happy to put a cap on the paid time off hours. If I did that, I would probably suggest hours beyond the cap forming a starting point for an annual bonus.

    Are any/all of my suggestions reasonable? Does anyone else have any ideas for me? How would you respond to any of this as an employer? Thanks for all of your help.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      my plan is ask to “buy out” my health insurance and get 6 guaranteed days (I’ve purchased my own health insurance for years at this point, so I’m comfortable with it not being employer provided).

      I assume buying your own insurance isn’t dependent on the ACA remaining intact?

      1. YRH*

        It is (though I would hope there will still be ways to buy individual policies even if the ACA goes away), but my boss currently gives me an extra $100 a month (which covers half of my premium), so I’ll still have that problem if the ACA goes away and she keeps giving me a stipend. I do not rely on ACA-provided subsidies or anything like that.

    3. Windchime*

      When you say that she wants to change you from hourly to salary, does that also mean that she wants to change you from non-exempt to exempt? It kind of sounds like that, since the purpose is to avoid paying you overtime. Alison can correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that they can just decide to swap you for that reason.

      1. YRH*

        My understanding is that lawyers are always exempt unless they are paid hourly so I would become exempt is I was salaried. I definitely make more than the threshold.

  145. Mary (in PA)*

    Hey, commentariat — can anyone give me some ideas on where to look for legitimate remote-work positions? I have a seizure disorder that isn’t 100% well controlled with medication (yet), and in PA, every time you have a seizure, you lose your driver’s license for six months. I’m right in the middle of my third six-month waiting period over two years, and this could easily be an ongoing problem.

    As you can imagine, this makes it almost impossible to find a steady job, especially when my husband (the sole breadwinner) works about 25 miles away from our house. We’ve discussed moving closer to his job (as the town where he works is where he grew up and where his family lives), so having something that I can do 100% remotely would be ideal. I am kind of working at my own freelance editing business, but the medication makes it hard to concentrate on the kind of marketing and outreach work I need to do to make it profitable, and quite frankly, we need more money coming into the house. Any suggestions of where I can look for something remote would be most welcome.

    1. GigglyPuff*

      Since you’ve done editing, attention to details, maybe look around for remote metadata work for archival/media firms. I believe Crawford Metaforce is one of them. You typically don’t need a certain type of background. I believe you have to take a test to prove accuracy, quality and detail (maybe?), and provide your own tech equipment. The last job posting I saw for them you had to commit to completing at least 20 hours a week, but over that you could do as much as you wanted, so apparently you could make quite a decent amount of money.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      FlexJobs is a reputable website that aggregates legitimate remote work opportunities. There is a fee to use the service, but you’re guaranteed not to run across any scams. When I was job hunting, I paid for a month of their service and found it worthwhile (got an interview out of it, but not an offer sadly).

      1. Mary (in PA)*

        I think I remember some nice people talking about this in a thread a while ago. Thank you so much!

    3. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      A lot of companies contract out call center work to companies that are 100% work-from-home. My husband works 100% from home doing customer support for Apple (he does not work for Apple tough – he works for a company Apple hired to handle staffing support). He is a full time, permanent employee eligible for benefits too.

      1. Mary (in PA)*

        That’s a good idea, too. I’ve been wary of that kind of work, since I don’t know from day to day how the medication will affect me, but it’s certainly something to consider. Thank you so much!

  146. Dazed and Confused*

    I currently work PT at two nonprofit agencies in a professional role that requires a master’s degree for the past year. I love my work at both locations, A and B. A is a small organization with less than 10 full time people and about 5 PT. B is a much larger organization with multiple offices and about 100 PT and FT people, but FT positions at B tend to be fairly rare with them only being filled when people leave or retire. I work at B’s main office in a customer service niche role. One of B’s smaller offices has FT person retiring soon and my supervisor is encouraging me to apply for the position. Working at B full time would mean me leaving my other PT position.

    There are some pros and cons to working full time at B. I would qualify for healthcare, right now I’m using the ACA. I would be eligible for more vacation time. I would see a yearly raise of about 2k. However, while I like the supervisors at B’s smaller office the entry level employees are quite unpleasant. I also don’t want to leave A in a lurch and I really enjoy the work I do there. A also means a shorter commute. I anticipate leaving A and B’s larger office and just going to B’s smaller office would add 6 hours of commuting time to my week. My work week would stay approximately the same. However, currently when I end up working extra hours I get extra money, that would not happen as a FT employee at B. Also being fairly new to the working world I feel I should stay at both A and B for the sake of my resume as I’m gaining very valuable niche experience in both places where B’s smaller office would only offer me one. Also with the smaller B office I would have to do more entry level duties due to less staff being available there, which I’m not particularity fond of. I also adore my coworkers at A and B’s main office and have made quite a few friendships at both. Looking for advice is B’s FT position is worth applying too?

    1. fposte*

      The way you’re describing it, you mostly feel practically obliged to apply for it; you’re not particularly enthusiastic about getting it. If you can make your current work despite the practical obstacles, that sounds like the better decision for you right now.

      But don’t forget to look for possibilities at organizations C, D, and E while you’re thinking about change.

      1. Dazed and Confused*

        I should also say that there is a potential opening a B coming up this summer as the director of the organization is retiring and they’ll likely be some internal shuffling around. It’s not certain, but I know A will be a lot more flexible with FT hours than B and so I may be able to keep working at PT at B too.

        1. fposte*

          The other question is long-term, where do you want to be? Generally FT gives you better developmental traction, but it has to be the kind of FT that advances you. How would you feel if you were still where you are in five years?

          1. Dazed and Confused*

            I love what I do now and I do get yearly raises. Between now and than I’d expect my yearly income to jump about 6k. But I see both jobs as places I would definitely like to be for the next two or so years, but after that I’m not sure. I think I really see myself in a position with a much higher salary and responsibility, but not necessarily at A or B. I’ve even contemplated a career change in a couple of years using my current skills and a certification I’m currently working to obtain.

            1. fposte*

              It sounds like dividing up your time is working for you right now, and that you’re enjoying it more than you would if you were just at B. So if you’re looking for permission not to apply for a full time job, I officially grant it to you.

    2. Anxa*

      Is PSLF for student loans at a concern or consideration about this? If it’s something that matters to you, do all of these jobs qualify?

      1. Dazed and Confused*

        That is actually a bit of an issue for me but I’ve already paid down a significant amount of debt so that I would have future career mobility if necessary. If I found a slightly better paying private equivalent job there’d be no benefit to staying at my nonprofit job just for PSLF. At this point I owe under 20k in student loans @ 3.5% and I make 41k without extra hours. My particular industry just happens to focus on nonprofit work and it’s what I enjoy.

  147. Mimmy*

    Timer apps for more accurately documenting billable hours?

    For my contract gig, I have to log my hours via an online timesheet. The breakdown is in 6-minute increments, which I’ve seen mentioned here. I’m used to just rounding my time to the quarter-hour at regular jobs. Thus, I find myself forgetting to note what time I start and finish doing something relating to this project, so I end up just guessing.

    Are there any good apps for this? I know there is the built-in timer on the iPhone, but that seems more geared for exercise routines, not timing billable work.

    1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      Can you note the time as you come in, and the time you want to leave, then put it in your work software at the beginning of the day, but not submit the time, just save it?

      At the end of the day, you can then split the billed time up as needed for different matters, and submit it.

    2. Mephyle*

      I use Paymo, an online app. You can have up to three active projects in the free version, so that gives you a chance to try it.
      It has a lot of functions that I don’t bother with – you may find some of them useful, but if you don’t use them, they don’t get in the way. I just set up projects, tasks, and a price per hour, and that’s all.

  148. Beancounter in Texas*

    My mother had a TIA stroke on Jan 25 and was hospitalized until Jan 31. Her only diagnosed impairment from the stroke is expressive aphasia (difficulty in finding a word in her mind) – she is very lucky. Her medical leave with short term disability is approved until Mar 12th.

    Before the stroke, she was already getting her resume ready to find a new job in office administration, because she dislikes her retail cashier job. I think the stress of the job helped facilitate the strokes and I don’t want to see her return to that job. There is a job opening in which she is interested, but if she quits her old job without returning, I fear her having to repay the STD payments immediately, and she is relying on these payments to make ends meet. How should we approach transitioning to a new job in the midst of medical leave?

    1. animaniactoo*

      1) I would check with whoever is in charge of paying out the STD what the problems with this would be. I don’t think there would be one because even if it’s through her job, it’s in effect and she’s eligible for those payments up until she quits and I would find it surprising that she would be asked to repay them at all.

      2) If there is an issue, I would see what you can do towards pushing it as a medically advised job change.

      In the meantime, apply for the job! She doesn’t have to take it if she does get it, but all of this is moot if she doesn’t even apply.

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        1) I’m thinking she wouldn’t have to repay, because she paid the premiums while employed, but I would expect the STD payments stop when she informs her employer of her termination. I’ll contact her benefits administrator re: paying STD back.

        2) I am working on getting a doctor’s note about the expressive aphasia being a disability to her cashiering job. She is customer-facing in that position, and if she can’t communicate clearly with the customers – and frustration exacerbates the problem – then it doesn’t seem like she can fulfill the duties of that job well. Plus, anyone who has worked in customer service knows how rude behavior can wear on one’s health, and she seems to encounter some of the rudest people.

    2. fposte*

      Glad your mom’s doing pretty well. The TX website (assuming your mom is there too) is pretty dense so I was unable to check–are you sure she’d have to repay the payments rather than just the premiums? What’s the policy’s waiting period before she can get a new job without it affecting her STD? When would payouts or premiums have to be repaid by? If you don’t have that information, finding it out is a thing you can do for your mom. If it’s just the premiums, that’s not as daunting, and if you know when the waiting period ends she might be able to negotiate a start date that doesn’t hurt her.

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        Excellent information, thank you. I’ll contact the benefits administrator (which is 3rd party) for the STD benefit information. That should have those details in it.

  149. Jade*

    I’m looking to change careers from my current field to admin type work. I don’t currently have any office experience, but hopefully that will change in the near future with some volunteer and part time experience and a return to school. In the meantime I have my resume posted on several job boards. I’ve gotten several calls and emails, but they’re all for positions in my current field, which I don’t want to do anymore. Is it weird to add a blurb at the top of my resume saying what kind of work I’m looking for? How should I write it?

    1. Anxa*

      I don’t know, but I do know that I’m starting to turn down volunteer opportunities of being a helping hand and trying to build more administrative skills. I’ve done pieces here and there, but I need a lot of experience. My education is pretty unrelated, so I’m hoping it’s not too late for me.

      I’ll also be honest and say it really wasn’t ever my dream job or something I worked for, but I’ve always enjoyed doing that work when given that opportunity. So even though I always saw myself doing it eventually, I also so my self as too many other things as well.

  150. Katie the Fed*

    So I have another one for today –

    My boss and I just cannot seem to communicate well. We talk past each other and most of our conversations just end with us both frustrated. Add to this that we both LIKE each other, and we’ve both acknowledged this is an issue, but it just doesn’t seem to work.

    My frustration is that she doesn’t seem to listen. She goes through the motions of listening, but interrupts or thinks you’re saying things you’re not saying. I’m not the only one who’s observed this about her, but I do think I’m one of the few people who gets as frustrated as I do.

    Here’s an example of how a conversation might go. Obviously the content is different.
    Me: I’m need to get a haircut.
    Her: Yeah, hair color is expensive.
    Me: Yeah but I’m just getting a haircut.
    Her: Yes, but hair color is expensive.
    Me: But I wasn’t talking about getting my hair colored. I was talking about a haircut.
    Her: I’m trying to tell you that hair coloring and highlights are expensive.

    Is my best course just to go along with whatever strange direction she takes the conversation, for the sake of both of our frustration? I never feel like she actually hears what I’m bringing to her, and I can’t seem to bridge it. It’s driving me crazy.

    1. katamia*

      Does it help at all to try to do more of your work-related conversations in writing/email/IM, or does she not “listen” well in that context either? For socialization, you’re probably just better off letting the chips fall where they may, even though it’s frustrating (and I’d find it really frustrating too).

      1. Katie the Fed*

        She doesn’t read her emails in a timely manner, or use IM and prefers to talk in person. So I’m usually already slightly frustrated by the time I talk to her because I’ve probably emailed her the relevant information and need an answer.

        I’m kind of leaning toward just rolling with it but that’s not who I am! Gahhh. I have a really strong need to be understood. *sigh*

        She drives us all crazy, but I think me especially so.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Try taking out the “but”. It likely feels like countering to her and that means she ends up reinforcing her original point rather than moving on, even when you’ve validated/acknowledged her point.

          So instead of saying “Yeah, but…” you would say “Yeah, fortunately I’m just getting a haircut so that won’t be an issue here.”

          Also possible to have a code that says “you’re focused on a tangent”? Either an explicit verbal one “Jane, you’re doing the tangent thing. Can you join me over here?” or a girl scout salute or some such that breaks her out of the point she’s focused on? Because it sounds like a major part of the issue is that she is answering in an almost rote kind of way, and what she needs is something to interrupt that routine for her without just continuing to repeat the point you’re trying to get across.

          You could also try “I’m trying to see how that’s relevant here and I don’t. Can you explain what I might be missing?”

    2. Rincat*

      My mom does this. So I’ve learned to pick my battles. Most of the time, I let it roll off, but if I really need to be understood, I’ll try repeating what she said and then going back to my own statement, sort of what you said above but really spelled out:

      Me: Yes, hair color is expensive, so I’ve decided not to get any hair color. However, I am getting a haircut.

      I try to acknowledge what she was saying,and sort of answer the implied question within her statement. To me, that convo is her way of asking if you’re getting color as well, but she just didn’t articulate the question, even though it’s in her brain and needs to be answered.

      I hope all that makes sense. I feel you!

      1. Katie the Fed*

        oooh that’s a good idea. I actually didn’t think about acknowledging her weird tangents. I’ll give it a try.

      2. Epsilon Delta*

        My husband does this too. It is so! frustrating! I am going to try this strategy. Right now my response is similar to Katie’s, and it isn’t usually successful.

        If it gets too far off track sometimes I just give up and say, “What are you referring to? Why are you talking about hair color?” That at least gets us synced up, often he has gotten ahead of me in the conversation or thinks that he said something out loud that he only said in his head.

      3. Emi.*

        This sounds like a good strategy to me. Maybe thinking of it as “Yes, and” instead of “No,” like in improv, could help. I also like jiujitsu analogies: don’t try to block her; just redirect her energy.

    3. BRR*

      I didn’t notice this until previous job but I swear it’s a thing. Like, “why aren’t you responding to things I’m saying?”

    4. Anono-me*

      Have you considered the possibility of a hearing issue? I know armchair diagnosing can be irritating, but this sounds more like someone who is only getting part of the conversation and is guessing at the missing bits rather than some not paying attention.

      The hearing issue can be as simple as wax build up. I have a friend who I often have to give a heads up to about getting her ears done after similar style conversations.

      It also can be more serious. Sometimes people have trouble hearing higher tones, but don’t realize it because they can hear everything else just fine. Hearing issues are becoming more and more of a problem as the headphone and earbud generations age. I don’t know if you have the type of relationship where you will ever want to bring it up with her. However, you may want to try having a conversation in a lower voice and seeing if that helps.

      Good luck.

  151. Junior Dev*

    How do I stop derailers from taking over meetings/group discussions when the people with more formal authority than I have won’t do anything to stop it?

    There is a particular person who does this worse than everyone else, but it’s also a dynamic of the group as a whole and I know I’ve occasionally been guilty of it.

    Person A: we should look into XYZ (often with the implication of “do more research and make a plan,” not “discuss all the details of how we would implement XYZ”)
    Person B: (proceeds to vomit up every piece of information they know on XYZ and every opinion they’ve ever had related to it)

    I’ve had moderate success with “I think we’rr getting off topic” in informal discussions but I’m nervous to say that in meetings run by my boss, who does nothing to stop this.

    1. Zooey*

      If you’re not running or leading the meeting, unfortunately there’s not much you can do aside from doing your personal best to stay on topic. It’s just the culture there.

      But if you are, could you try talking to your boss in a one-on-one or before a meeting, just saying “Hey, I’ve noticed that sometimes as a team, we tend to get off track in meetings with digressions and other topics. Are you comfortable with me setting the agenda and asking people to stick to it for the Teapot Spout Design meeting?” He/she will probably be all for it, and appreciate it.

      Another thing that helps is literally typing up an agenda and printing it out for everyone in the meeting. Printing it is key! It makes it more tangible and right in front of their faces. It also makes it a bit easier to say things like “To keep this from going over, let’s move onto the next agenda item”.

    2. Borgette*

      Does your company’s meeting culture include parking lots? This is a perfect time to say “Hey B, can we parking lot XYZ for now and revisit it later?”

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      If you’re not leading them or the most senior person there, it’s tough to stop this kind of thing.

      Maybe offer to lead the meeting, then run the meetings how you want them run.

  152. alex*

    Hi, everyone!
    Does this arrangement sound normal/ok?
    I got offered a position that will officially open in June, when the current person leaves. Hiring manager says to keep track of my hours from March until then, while I train, and implied that they can pay retroactively for those training hours (she didn’t really specify how or when, or even use the term “retroactively”; she just said to keep track).
    Thank you.

    1. Chriama*

      That really doesn’t sound normal to me. Training is paid. Are you currently working for this employer and it would be a new position? And is the training on your own time and transferrable to other companies or is it at their office and specific to their work processes and procedures? The whole thing sounds sketchy to me.

      1. alex*

        Thank you– yeah, it would be a new role in addition to my current one at the same employer. And it would be specific to this office and not transferable.

        They’ve always treated me well, but this proposal was a bit weird to me. It would be training on my own time and I’d keep track and then I guess bill it once June comes (this is the part that confuses and worries me). It seems like the consensus is that this is not cool.

    2. fposte*

      It sounds sketchy. It’s a new employer, right, and not your current one where you’re transitioning into a new role and taking on some extra training? If it’s straight up “work for free for four months and maybe we’ll pay you later for it if we hire you” that is shady stuff.

      1. alex*

        Thanks for replying. It’s my current employer; but I’d be changing roles entirely. They’re framing it like, “you’d train starting now but we can’t pay you for this new position until June”; but she said something vague about my keeping track of hours and then billing those back hours over the summer (I think… I’m unsure.. I want the new job so I think I didn’t ask for clarity).

      1. alex*

        Thanks for replying; you think so even if it’s my current employer? They’re framing it as, “you will take over this new role in June; please keep track of training hours and we will pay you for them once June comes and the current employee leaves.”
        Now that I write it, though, June is a long way off and that’s a lot of hours I may not get paid for….

    4. Borgette*

      That’s hella sketchy. It’s completely reasonable to insist on details for what work you’ll be paid for and when. If it’s above board they’ll be happy to clear things up.

      1. alex*

        Thank you for responding. I guess the hope was that in June I’d get a big pay-out for all the training that started in March, and then I’d be on their payroll as a regular employee. The hiring manager basically said she can’t pay anyone for the position until the current person leaves (June 1) but she wants me to train with this person in the coming months.
        The more I explain it, the more screwy it sounds…

  153. entry level EA*

    Need some advice about writing thank you notes- I’ve just interview with 3 senior level employees for an Executive Assistant job. It went well – the person I’d be EA’ing for said she wanted to bring me back to meet with another staff member. I feel as though I should write thank you notes, but don’t have emails for any of them so I can’t do more than send my recruiter a generic thank you note and ask her to pass it along. I also have two different recruiter contacts – one who contacted me about the position and one who was there today to facilitate the interviews. Is there a better solution? Since they are senior staff and part of our conversations were about being discreet and managing who gets to have contact with my hypothetical boss, I would feel uncomfortable trying to track down their emails online.

    2. Chaordic One*

      When I don’t have email addresses, I revert to the old handwritten thank you note. One for each of the 3 senior level employees. I try to remember to ask for and get copies of everyone’s business card and they will usually have an email address on them.

      In the past, I haven’t had good luck with recruiters forwarding things like thank you emails, but maybe that was just my bad luck.

  154. Brandy*

    Has anyone heard about the new app (going live in Japan this week I think) that can track stall time in the bathroom? It can let you know if there is a line (don’t know how) and how long doors have been shut, kinda letting bosses know how long a persons been in the stall.

    1. Graciosa*

      OMG.

      I can’t tell you how much I, as a boss, do NOT want to know this.

      As a boss, I want to provide appropriate facilities for my staff and forget the issue. I understand occasional questions about the restrooms (from “Who do I call to report X” to “What do I do with [Valuable Item] that I found there”) but less is definitely more on this topic.

    2. Anxa*

      I’m sure I could look up how this works, but I can’t even imagine how this works.

      Do you have to sign in to use the bathrooms? Do the toilets and stalls have sensors. Is it done through visual tracking from a camera? I just….

    4. Brandy*

      Its to cut down on too much time spent in the bathroom. It has a sensor on the doors to the stalls. Heard about it on the radio.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        No, I know, it’s just possibly the most ridiculous, control-freaky, patronizing thing I’ve ever heard of, and I would ragequit a job that used it.

    8. JustaTech*

      Oh heck to the no! If a company is having issues that people are sitting on the toilet playing with their phones then turn off the WiF in the bathroom. No one needs to know that Jane’s got IBS or Wakeen needs a good cry or Arya is having a bad period.
      In fact, given that how long a person spends in the stall in the bathroom often is related to medical stuff, it might be an actionable invasion of privacy.

    9. Rebecca*

      I would be totally tempted to stand in the bathroom and repeatedly open and close the stall door, like 30 times…then use it…then open and close it some more, every. single. time. I went into the bathroom. I’d encourage my coworkers to do the same.

      This is insane. If you have a problem employee who hides in the bathroom to avoid work, address it. Otherwise, butt out.

  155. Help for career change - restaurant*

    I am really hoping the wonderful commenters here have some advice as I am out of my depth. Thanks very much in advance!

    Does anyone have experience in switching from a career of restaurant work into a more stable career path? For context, this is for a friend of mine in their 40s, who currently works as a bartender/manager at a restaurant, and has over 20 years of experience in the restaurant business in all sorts of positions, including restaurant owner. He’s looking for a job with more stability, and we’re trying to brainstorm on what options there are. I think he would be great in something like advocacy/marketing/outreach for a restaurant association or trade group, or maybe something in a local chamber of commerce, etc. But as I said, I really just don’t know what options are out there. All advice is greatly appreciated!

    1. Dazed and Confused*

      Have you thought management for grocery stores or even large wholesale stores like Target or Walmart?

      1. Help for career change - restaurant*

        Oh, that would be a good idea. My friend would probably be great at something like that.

      2. Jessesgirl72*

        Just what I was going to suggest. I’ve known people who’ve done that, and they do go out of business less often than food service.

    2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      My husband doesn’t have quite this range of experience, but he moved from over a decade of restaurant work into customer service oriented roles like a call center. Probably lower in the salary range than what your friend wants though

      1. KR*

        This – and receptionist type jobs. A lot of times they require very good customer service skills and flexibility and adaptability. At the same time you may share duties with administrative assistants, so you can get exposure to office work and make the transition into office work. Also, I like to look at all the skills that are transferable. For example, hiring, ordering supplies, keeping inventory, balancing a cash register, sales, so on.

      2. Help for career change - restaurant*

        Yeah, I don’t think that’s exactly what he’s looking for but I will raise that for him. I’d actually thought about something similar, like maybe doing case work for a congressional office or something else that deals a lot with people.

    3. writelhd*

      We hired a manager for a residential insulation company who used to be a restaurant manager. He had no experience in construction at all but he fit with the culture and experience managing, and managing *well*, were the biggest needs in the moment. It’s not a glamorous job and a bit of a dirty one, so there weren’t just tons of applicants, which was probably how we noticed him, and the world of sub-contracting can be stressful with managing construction schedules, so we figured somebody who’d managed in a restaurant stress situation could deal with our stresses pretty well and might even find them much less stressful by comparison. He did.

      1. Help for career change - restaurant*

        Interesting, that’s a good idea! There are a lot of construction jobs in our area right now too.

    4. A Non E. Mouse*

      Any kind of retail management I think would translate well; but if by “stability” you mean better working hours, retail is probably not it either (unless you can find a small shop only open during the day).

      What about restaurant or other hospitality sector supply jobs? Since he already knows the industry, I think he’d be great at supply side – he already knows the lingo! – and it should allow a more gentle slide from the go-go-GO of a restaurant to full on office job. Should also fall into more traditional hours than retail.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Yes I wondered that also. If by “stability” you meant better working hours, less late nights.
        I agree with other hospitality jobs/food jobs but not sure if the hours. Sometimes the corporate hours for the retails/restaurants? (It always killed me at coffee shop when the corporate employees always came through every weekend, because of course they only worked M-F and had all the holidays off and had way better benefits…). He would know the business but get better hours. (Nots sure if he wants to travel, but overall hours might be better with some hectic times — but corporate jobs/district manager/training manager in franchise? Not sure. Probably depends on the individual culture).
        Otherwise — as Dazed & Confused said – manager for Target/Walmart/Grocery Store. Or food company/Vendor. One of my friends who worked in retailer for years, wanted less responsibility, so he quit being a manager and went to work for a different retail job, then went back to work in restaurant but I think he only works on the staff that does catered events – so he knows when it will b busy and a late night (i.e. a wedding) but he doesn’t have to work every day/every might in the bar or waiting tables.

        1. Help for career change - restaurant*

          Those are all good options to think about, thank you. I think he’d love to travel more, so franchise jobs might work out perfectly.

      2. Help for career change - restaurant*

        Supply chain would probably be a great fit for him. I think by stability he wants a more predictable schedule, not worrying about the restaurant going under/being sold, and not having to deal with drunken weirdos until 3 in the morning. So some retail would probably be better even if the hours weren’t perfect.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I was just thinking of places around here, one sells veggies and fruits to restaurants and the other sells paper goods to businesses. Both places have been in business forever and I see their trucks out all the time. Probably a stable job. They don’t just need delivery people, they also need order takers/sales people.

  156. Anonsydance*

    No need for advice, just really happy. I’ve been pretty unhappy in my sales position (the pay is not making up for the crappy hours and foot pain), and I finally got a job doing what I had originally been looking for. I’m just really excited that in going to be working in downtown nyc with an easier commute than what I’ve got now.

  157. Epsilon Delta*

    Question for people who have to track billable time: what’s your strategy to keep track of your hours? Right now, I have a spreadsheet that I try to update a couple times a day, with half-hour increments. In a perfect world, I would say, “30 minutes: Project X. 30 minutes: Project Y. 2 hours: Project Z” etc. But in reality, I find it really hard to remember how long I spent on a project with that level of detail, or I’ll end up multi-tasking and then I have a mess. Sometimes I will look back at my spreadsheet at the end of the day and realize that I have 3-4 hours of time that I have NO CLUE what project I was working on (even though I was legitimately working and not at lunch or reading AAM). Sometimes I can look at timestamps of my emails or IMs to get some clues, but other times there’s no way to figure it out and I just make a best-guess. I guess I could set a reminder to update the sheet every hour, but… let’s be realistic, I won’t be able to maintain that fore more than a week.

    What strategies do you use to track your time?

    1. Not Karen*

      Honestly for the most part I just guess. I think it mostly averages out in the end. If I consciously switch gears from one project to another for an extended period, I’ll make a note in a notebook to go back to when I fill out my timesheet.

    2. Jules the First*

      Pomello is a godsend. It builds in breaks and lets me keep track of what I did all day. Plus it will also track task start/finish times.

    3. Annie Moose*

      I don’t need to do it for NewJob anymore, but at OldJob, I just got in a habit of updating my spreadsheet regularly throughout my day. At the very least, set a reminder to update before lunch and at the end of the day.

      Multi-tasking, I generally just split the time between them. “I was mostly working on Project X, and a bit on Project Y–let’s call it an hour on X and a half hour on Y.”

      I think a best guess is all anyone can reasonably expect, most people aren’t going to perfectly remember everything they did down to the second.

    4. Victoria, Please*

      I’m remembering one of my early jobs on a farm. The owners wanted to start tracking time we spent on things so they could get accurate estimates of how much their different crops cost them to grow. They wanted us yobby teenagers to write down on our time cards what we did every day, with a code they posted, like: 2 hr PC, 3 hr AP, 1 hr M, 1 hr BB. (Peaches, apples, market, blackberries.) …that initiative lasted all of about two days.

      Time tracking is *hard*.

    5. Epsilon Delta*

      Thanks for the replies, it sounds like my approach is pretty typical, which is reassuring. I have an innate tendency to want to track everything down to the minute details, so I suppose I will have to work on letting that go in this context.

      I will look into Pomello though!

  158. Glacier*

    I started a new job with local government in June 2016, and had a great end-of-probation review in January 2017. I think COLAs are annual, but am I also supposed to request a raise at my one-year review? How do COLAs and salary raises work?

    Thanks!

    2. KR*

      COLA and merit raises are decided department by department every budget year for non-union employees and by the union contract every year for union members at the municipality I used to work with. I would ask your supervisor or HR

  159. retail person*

    Here’s a tricky question. I work in retail, and today an older female vendor made some inappropriate comments to my coworker “Jane”, saying she had a “nice butt” (!). I said “isn’t that a little personal?” from across the room but the vendor didn’t seem to notice or care. Jane laughed in the moment but afterward I said “that was weird” and she nodded. I said “if you talk to [Manager] I bet she’d say something to that woman” and Jane said she was fine in what seemed to be a resigned tone. Should I tell my manager anyway, and maybe keep Jane’s name out of it (“she said this to someone”)? Or should I let Jane say something if she wants to?

    1. Annie Moose*

      Personally, I’d let it slide unless Jane wanted to say something. I think you definitely did the right things so far, though–spoke up in the moment, mentioned it in a supportive way to Jane.

      Is this a vendor you work with a lot? Have you overheard the vendor saying similar stuff before? If so, maybe it’d be worth mentioning then. (e.g. “I’ve heard Susan make inappropriate comments several times and it’s uncomfortable etc. etc.” or something)

      Otherwise, I’d leave it up to Jane to decide how she wants to handle it. But I don’t know that this is the “right” answer. I never know what to think about situations like this.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Retail is a tough environment, in light of that let her make her own choices, I agree. However if anything is said to you, OP, you most certainly can make a very different choice.

  160. Anxa*

    I’m having a hard time adjusting to my current work model.

    At my last job I had fewer administrative duties, more preparation time, and more rigid hours. Since my hours were regular for each semester (subject to change, but regular), I just tried to do my best to get a lot of students to visit, then once I had enough filled slots not to look like an easy target for cutting hours, I tried to work efficiently for my department.

    Now my pay structure is different and the incentives are quite different. I’m also far more nomadic and am “on” around the clock. There is definitely more ‘hustle’ and less deep diving. I find that I spend far more energy and head space on organizational issues than content.

    So, my main issue is that although I have paid down time, I can’t really use that time to prepare well for client contact hours (isolated from material resources) and I can’t just lump all of my administrative work into one day and meet my clients’ needs.

    The rest of my paid time is through client hours. But there’s a lot of work that goes into building those hours. I have to schedule to respond to emails, keep track of client information, evaluate and organize paperwork for each client, deal with a barrage of cancellations and adjustments, stay on top of my bus and car-share schedule (since I don’t really know my true hours until the day of), trying to build as many hours as I can without going over my limit, hunting down work space and materials all across campus, etc. Ideally I’d love to set up presentations and curate learning resources, and plan sessions, but I’m willing to drop that and confident enough to work on the fly.

    What complicates the issue further is that I don’t have an office. My main ‘office’ is using a computer lab, in part so I don’t have to bring a laptop (added weight, theft risk, makes it harder to leave the area for a moment) to use between sessions or twiddle my thumbs. Problem is, the building has terrible reception. So I end up with missed calls. This adds to the amount of stress and time I spend coordinating the hours for which I’m actually paid. Students are inconsistent in using email or phones, and I also am afraid to push email-only since I don’t have access to email when I’m in other parts of campus (gym, walking, working directly with a client) or during my commute (which is minimum 25 mins and max 1.5 hours). Even if I had a smartphone I’m not sure my school email would work well on mobile.

    So like today, I came on an unscheduled day because I had 5 clients ask if I could do makeups on Friday, and I can’t just walk away from the chance to make that money if even half of them pulled through. One asked yesterday if she could pick her time and call me. I said yes and came to campus. She called, but I missed it, and she went home. I knew it was a risk to come in today, but it sucks that we both wanted to meet, but because I didn’t wait around outside, I may have lost my paid hour and just threw bus fare down the toilet. While I can work on my job search here (I have absolutely zero qualms about doing that at my employer when full-time hours aren’t available) just as well as at home, it’s still annoying.

    I am trying to avoid working off the clock, but I literally don’t know how to get all of work I need to get done in 15 minutes a day. I used to do fine when I was slammed with a few minutes between sessions, but I had a better email service, our front desk attendants assisted with scheduling, I had access to more materials, and my whole mindset was about what was about being efficient. I don’t want to use my contact time efficiently because I’m trying to rack up hours. But I do want to be efficient with my administrative time.

    It’s starting to affect my personal life. My SO basically pays the bulk of our bills and wanted me to move with him, but I did leave a better (although not good enough to stay) part-time job behind for this situation. He wants me to work, knows I like the job, and hates seeing me unemployed. So he’s very keen on making this work out. But I can tell he’s feeling annoyed about giving me rides for no-shows, having his schedule disrupted, having me to keep checking my phone and email at night in case I get feedback from a client, all for what amounts to a paltry second income that we can’t afford to turn down, but can survive without. I’ve never been an office manager or an administrative assistant, but I’ve always loved and excelled at the clerical aspects of my jobs. But all of my usual time savers aren’t helping (I can’t share calendars for scheduling, I have no access to a central system, I’m still getting used to Outlook webapp, I can’t open parts of my email in new tabs, sometimes I’ll be denied access to my work email while at home, I don’t have time to finish the shortcuts I start).

    I really don’t know how I can be as organized, timely, accommodating, and most of all maximize my hours without putting more time in without feeling awkward about ‘working off the clock.’

    1. NaoNao*

      Oof, so many issues here.
      I think the combination of all this might mean that it’s just time to job search, but also put some boundaries in place or perhaps on first contact, email a student a “contract” that says how much notice you need before they can cancel without a penalty, maybe start taking half the fee upfront, or work on a “deposit” system (like, they put down 20$ first, after 3 sessions, they get that back) so they’re more motivated to stay on time, use your personal email and smart phone for contacts, and stress to students that email is the first resort, or texts–a lot of time texts come through when phone calls won’t.
      Perhaps also start only working on set days. I feel like “chasing the dollar” is what’s tripping you up here. Can you set certain days like only 3 days a week, etc?
      Can you also do virtual tutoring from home or at another location?
      Just spitballing here, sorry if some of these won’t work.

      1. Anxa*

        I can’t set up a contract or do anything with a deposit. That would just be really inappropriate in my environment.

        You’re right that I’m getting tripped up in chasing a dollar, but when 4/5 of my clients cancel on my “on” day and 3 of them ask for another day, it’s hard to turn that down.

        I was tutoring from another location, but those hours dried up this semester. I must do my work at my current job on one of our campuses.

        I think I’m gonna work on using a third party scheduling service.

    2. Overeducated*

      Honestly I think your job just isn’t structured to work well for you. Earning the minimum you need and then spending the rest of your time and energy searching for something better might be a better use of limited resources than trying to make the maximum amount. Since you recently relocated that’s a fresh start and you may have better luck than in your previous location.

      1. Anxa*

        I think you’re right that this just isn’t the job for me. I can put up with a lot and am very flexible when it comes to do doing tasks others don’t want to do, doing anything that needs to get done, etc. But I do prefer to be trained or experienced on my job and I’m not a student looking for a few extra hours. I’m trying to make a living.

        I know that if I’m ever going to make a decent salary in higher education, I have to move away from the teaching side of things. And I don’t really have the relevant education background, making it an uphill battle. I actually felt more professional respect, support, and trust as a student employee over 10 years ago than I do now, and had more responsibilities and opportunities.

        The thing is, there is no earning a minimum I need, because I’m only making a few hundred dollars a month and I do need more than that. Our hours are capped at 50 per month, which I misinterpreted during the interview process (I thought it was ~100 hours), so even with all the hustling imaginable I’m not going to be taking home more than $630 here.

        More than the money and stress, though, as much as I like aspects of this job, I need a job where there’s an outlet for motivation or ambition or just plain or caring about my performance. Here I feel like all of the logistics of my job are holding me back every step of the way.

  161. soupmonger*

    I’d just like to say that I discovered AAM a few weeks ago and am now hopelessly, sadly addicted. I’ve hit the ‘surprise me’ button an embarrassing number of times and I’ve just discovered how Wakeen got his name. This blog is stellar.

    Alison’s advice is consistently excellent and I have learned a lot – mostly about clear communication and not trying to dress up an awkward chat in kind words which then lead to misunderstanding. Can I have some advice please on how to wean myself off this blog?

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      The Wakeen story is one of the great tales of the internet.

            2. Never have a good name picked out*

              Oh wow 2013… I can’t believe I’ve been lurking here for that long already!

    3. Allypopx*

      Wasn’t that in an open thread type post? You are down the rabbit hole…

      We were in a slow time at work when I initially discovered this blog and I honestly considered it productive skill building time. I still do, though I try to temper the amount I’m on here in an actually work setting more now (better at it some days than others…)

      I think it’s a great community and you should totally allow yourself to get sucked into it, if you can blog responsibly.

      1. soupmonger*

        Yeah, one of the things I really enjoy are the comments and the sense of proper supportive community. I tell myself off for spending evenings reading on here but I’ve learned so much (and also been reassured that the way I do most things is pretty ok) <- I run my own business and am always on the lookout for ways to improve things for everyone there.

        And it's too late not to get sucked in; I've been lurking but now I've started commenting, I've abandoned all hope :)

        1. Squeeble*

          Enjoy it! Things will even out soon. When I first found AAM I was reading through the archives constantly, both at home and work. Now I look at it regularly throughout the work day but it’s not a time suck so much anymore.

  162. Nancy*

    I think I’m in the final phases of a hiring process (fingers crossed that I’m getting an offer on Monday). In my application they asked what was the min. salary I would take. They also asked for salary history (which I answered reluctantly). Is it naive to think they will at least offer me the min. I put down? This is my 3rd round with them on Monday and is a one on one lunch. I’m glad they seem to be really vetting me as a fit and trust me I’m doing the same. To be up front. The min. I put down is about $8,000 more than I make now. BUT, I’m also about $15,000 underpaid for my level of experience, skills and degree level (8 years professional experience in non-profit, fundraising, communications, marketing, grants, events, and social media. With a masters degree) . Hence, the reason for the job search. I’m prepared to negotiate. I’ve done my homework on my market value, the average value for the region etc. I have a range, which includes the min. I listed. More would be great! But as it is another non-profit (though bigger) I know to have a realistic outlook.

  163. M*

    Have you ever experienced retaliation at work from asking HR a question about your salary or something similar? What did that retaliation look like?

    1. NaoNao*

      Well….I haven’t personally, but I feel like maybe HR isn’t the place to ask? I’d start with management. If you’re asking about your salary in comparison to others because you suspect that you’re underpaid as a result of being a protected class, I’d get a lawyer involved first :)

  164. Miriam*

    I have a nice little success story to contribute. Using what I’ve read and learned on this site, I worked up the courage to ask my boss for a raise. It was a pretty big one though, 10%. I made my case using local salary data, and outlined everything I do that warrants it. It took a few months, but he agreed to the increase earlier this week. It takes effect on March 1! I’m pretty proud of myself, I’ve never done anything like that before.

  165. Not That Jane*

    I read an article the other day that touched on alcohol use /availability in the workplace. The author (in the tech industry) described bottles of wine or whiskey on almost every desk at her workplace.

    Now, maybe it’s just because I’m a teacher, but this level of visibility/ availability of alcohol at work struck me as incredibly weird, verging on unbelievable. So… am I off base here? What is the norm on this issue in other industries/companies?

    1. Graciosa*

      In large companies, this is Not Done.

      It is Not Done to the point that when I bought a bottle of root beer from our cafeteria, I consciously made sure the label was visible to passers by.

    2. MS-DOS EFX*

      Yeah this would have been a fireable offense at any place I’ve worked, which includes: tiny nonprofit, giant insurance company, corporate health food store, and state university.

    3. katamia*

      Some of it might be regional culture, too. I grew up in a state where you had to buy most alcoholic beverages at liquor stores, and when I lived in California (not sure if the workplace described was there, but Silicon Valley is in California, at least) I never really got used to how much alcohol there was in every single grocery store.

      I also went to college in a Midwestern state where alcohol is a larger part of the culture than it was where I grew up, and I never really got used to it there either (partially because there it was beer, which I hate). So I’d probably find it less jarring in California or the state where I went to college because alcohol is just so much more visible there than it is in my home state.

    4. Ellen*

      It definitely depends on the industry. I work in media, and while I wouldn’t say it’s EVERY desk, it’s certainly not uncommon at my (large) company to see wine or liquor openly displayed on someone’s desk. They’re popular gifts from clients, and we have regular-if-not-frequent company-sponsored, in-office events where alcohol is served.

      That said, if someone was pouring a glass of wine or a shot of whiskey outside an event, while sitting at their desk and going about their daily routine, it would invite comment and, perhaps, repercussions.

    5. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      That’d be completely unacceptable in most of my professional workplaces, but when I was in grad school, we had a communal beer stash in one of the lab fridges and it wasn’t uncommon to crack one when we were all slaving away at 9pm on a Friday night or whatever.

      Most places, though, not done. Little tech-bro startups might do it, but frankly I think a lot of those places are frat houses with venture capital money.

    6. Princess Carolyn*

      This would be pretty normal in advertising. We had company-sponsored “beer thirty” once a week, plenty of drinks at events, including the annual meeting, and I can think of at least three former co-workers who probably have a bottle of alcohol on their desks right now. Basically, it’s usually fine as long as you don’t act a fool.

    7. Not Karen*

      That would be Not Okay in my workplace. At LastJob, the alcohol policy was so strict you weren’t allowed to have a drink on your lunch break. At CurrentJob, there are policies against drinking (or visibility thereof) while working, but they do serve alcohol at some after-hours staff events.

    8. Lemon Zinger*

      I worked in tech sales (briefly) out of college. Every off-site revolved around drinking. Sales prizes were mini bottles of alcohol. There was beer in the fridge for Fridays after 5 p.m.

      It’s definitely industry-specific. It made me super uncomfortable, but I can see why people like it.

    9. animaniactoo*

      It would be very very odd in mine. Although a drink on the job here and there has been known to happen, this level of it would be bad and there would be a major crackdown.

    10. Allypopx*

      At my job, it would be fine to have it in your desk. We’re a pretty relaxed alcohol culture, have scheduled Friday-at-4 drinks in the office once a month, other drinks now and then, and few events are ever dry. On your desk seems pretty unprofessional though.

    11. AdAgencyChick*

      Advertising? Pretty normal.

      We’re not drunk ALL the time like on Mad Men, but nobody hides their booze (unless it’s because it’s the good stuff you don’t want the account coordinator grabbing a nip of without your permission).

  166. MS-DOS EFX*

    What are some good ways to take care of yourself and keep from getting demoralized when you have a super controlling boss and a mildly toxic work environment?

    My boss is really unpredictable with respect to her moods and managing style. She’s got three basic settings: One day she treats me like a friend, we talk about our personal lives and she is very honest and open about our organization and supportive of my professional development. The next day, she is ultra professional and distant, a lot of topics are not up for discussion/clarification anymore and I won’t know why or which subjects have become touchy, and she outright refuses requests for help/meetings. The next day, she’ll be super aggressive and micromanagey, demanding to know what each person on our team is working on several times a day, giving us laundry lists of things to do, and telling us word-for-word (sometimes over our shoulders) what she wants us to say in emails and in person to our colleagues. She always wants to be CCed on every single email anyone from our 3-person team sends.

    In terms of the department, which is no more than 20 people, my boss is part of a gossipy and secretive clique that has beef with the rest of the people in the department. I like the people in the clique on a personal level, but I don’t love the way they treat others in the department. I’ve witnessed my boss engage in what I would consider some pretty nasty bullying behavior, and heard about her boss doing the same, although I have never been on the receiving end of it.

    Looking for other work isn’t really an option…I don’t live in an area that has many opportunities in my field, and I’m currently working at a major university where I am getting my master’s in public administration for practically nothing. I’ve also developed a bond with a lot of the other folks who work here, and I do love this field even if I don’t love my specific role within it. But I do spend a lot of time feeling demoralized, weighed down emotionally, and restricted by my boss’s controlling nature.

    I’ve been putting more time and effort into bonding with my other colleagues to the extent that I can, which has helped. That can be a treacherous path considering the interdepartmental drama and I am waiting for my boss to start telling me who I may or may not get coffee with, but at the same time I kind of don’t care what she thinks of it. I’ve also considered going to some on-campus meetings/activities, but I’m afraid my boss would not allow me to or would get mad if she found out…I usually just eat lunch at my desk so I’m not sure how this would play out.

    If anyone else has been in a similar situation I’d love to hear your story.

    1. Marcy Marketer*

      I do have a similar situation, and I’ve been here for three years. I was really, really unhappy until I started doing a couple of things:
      1. Stopped caring. This is the biggest one. I decided that I could either get really upset each time I was micromanaged, or I could accept it as part of the job and let it roll off me. Actually acknowledging that this was a condition of the job that I was accepting in exchange for other things (flexible work hours, work I enjoy, etc) surprisingly helped a lot. Thanks Alison!
      2. Accept that bosses are human. Bosses have good and bad days. They might have their own bad boss. They might be struggling with a project timeline and stressed out. They might be under a lot of pressure from above. I know I don’t always behave 100% my best on days when I’m stressed– ie I can be less helpful on days when I’m super busy. Understanding that my boss may be stressed on a personal level helped me deal with his bad moods.
      3. Stop b*tching. I used to complain a lot about everything that happened that upset me, but thinking about everything so much just made me more unhappy and upset. Now I’m so much happier not complaining and stewing all the time.
      4. Find coping strategies. Try out different tactics/responses with your manager to see if different types of responses get different types of reactions. Try to learn his mood and adjust your behavior accordingly.

      Hope this helps! It does get better, or at least it did for me.

      1. MS-DOS EFX*

        Thank you! This is really helpful.

        I can be a jerk to the students I supervise when I’m in a bad mood sometimes, so it’s good to be reminded that I could just be on the receiving end of the same dynamic. Her boss is notoriously tyrannical, and I’m certain that’s where a lot of the sudden professionalism comes from. Unfortunately for our team, I think the big boss is molding the little one in her image.

    2. Effie*

      She sounds similar to my boss at my previous full-time job*! Internet hugs if you want them. I think that working towards not caring what she thinks is healthier than caring too much and letting her opinion influence your workplace relationships.

      Some suggestions:
      – Develop outside of work friendships and draw a VERY clear line between within work and outside of work. Stick to specific boundaries (like leaving on time and not answering work emails outside of work) to prevent mental burnout. It might be harder if you tend to socialize on campus after work, since it’s the same location as your workplace, and something that helped me was changing shoes or taking off my suit jacket/cardigan when I walked out of the office. It helped flip the mental switch from “work” to “outside of work”
      – I was always scrupulously professional with my old team because I am a very private person, even when my boss wanted to chitchat (ie talk about weekend plans). Would you want to switch to just social pleasantries no matter what “mode” she’s in or would that hurt your relationship with her? The rest of my team would get caught up in the drama and staying professional and focused on work helped prevent that for me. It might feel weird at first, and I think it’d be worth it.
      – If she does switch to bullying you, remember that it’s her, not you. Document and let it roll off your back
      – Make time for one activity a week (outside of work) that’s just for YOU. I would recommend not chatting about it with your boss, and if it does come up, make sure never to invite her or allow her to invite herself. The activity is for a complete mental vacation from work. Something like yoga or stretching before bed might also help.
      – This is less mature (YMMV): when I got frustrated during a staff meeting I would write notes to myself in a code I made up about how much everything sucked.
      – If you can laugh to yourself about how absurd she is (ie the next time she sends an outrageous request), do so. Again, she’s the one who is causing the rift in your work relationship, not you
      – When you get frustrated about how controlling she is, take a deep breath. Maybe step away from your desk and walk around the office before continuing. I find that breathing and stepping away keeps my frustration from overflowing.
      – Take a walk outside during your lunch break to break up your time spent inside the office. This also helps to refocus your brain
      – Wear clothes that make you feel happy
      – Remember to be kind to and take time for yourself! This job is a means to a better and happier future

      *Exboss seldom gave instructions and would get mad when we didn’t read her mind. I’d be glad to share more if you’d like to hear. She was the worst boss I’d ever had and I didn’t want my response to you to be awash in negativity

      1. MS-DOS EFX*

        Thank you so much! This is extremely helpful.

        I actually do yoga every day, and it has been absolutely critical in maintaining my emotional well-being lately. I definitely need to start throwing more walks/outside time into the mix during the day itself, though.

  167. Maybe Mentor*

    I volunteered to participate as a mentor in my company’s mentoring program. I received my assignment this week, and it’s someone who’s barely junior to me at all (let’s say she’s a teapot designer, and I’m a senior teapot designer). We have roughly the same number of years of experience; I’ve seen some of her teapot designs, and though we work on VERY different kinds of teapots, it seems to me that they’re as good as or better than mine.

    I’m not sure what I can offer her, but I brought up this concern to HR (who are running the program) and they responded that they thought I would be a great mentor to her and would have a lot to teach her. Should I go with their recommendation, or follow my gut and ask for a different assignment? They’ve said it’s ultimately my call.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Any reason you can’t reach out to her and say “I was surprised to see us matched up. I’m not sure what you’re looking for that I might be able to help with. Can you give me an idea of what you would like in terms of a mentor? Is there something specific that I do that would make you want to work with me?”

      1. Maybe Mentor*

        I’ve considered this, but HR frowns on contact between mentors and mentees until the mentees are notified. (Which wouldn’t happen in the normal course of events until I’d said, “Yes, I’ll do it!”)

        HR did share the questionnaire she’d filled out, including information about what she was looking for in a mentor. She listed about 12 skills/questions, of which I’m confident I could help with 2, and might have some good advice for 1-2 others. The rest, I feel like we’re on more or less equal footing.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Alright, here’s a question then – is there somebody else in the mentor program/company that you feel would be a *better* match for her. Because if not, you may be the best they can do, even though you are not the objective best person for her.

  168. Feathers McGraw*

    My predecessor Jane had an amazing reputation but actually made a lot of mistakes. She was a teapot handles expert, did everything relating to teapot handles and was highly thought of though apparently very hard to work with (e.g. refusing to explain decisions she had made to people who were meant to document the process).

    We’ve found some mistakes in a massive project on teapot handles project that’s often referred to as ‘Jane’s legacy’. My manager and immediate coworkers know about the issues and are working to fix them. Most of us started after she left and are just looking forward and working to fix things. We don’t want everyone to lose faith in all our other projects (which don’t have these same issues) so we aren’t sharing too many details with everyone else – they just know the project has been pulled and is being reviewed but not why (which is fine, it’s not going to cause problems with anything else so there’s nothing shady in case that’s not clear).

    I’m just sick of having conversations where people hear that we are redoing our work on teapot handles and respond by saying: Ah yeah, of course you don’t have a handles expert now/it must be hard without a handles expert. When the handles expert is the person who screwed things up. I’ll live, I’m just having to bite my tongue a LOT!

    1. really*

      Can you respond at all? I was thinking something along the lines of that experts have their place but sometimes get too focused and forget about the rest of the teapot.

      1. Feathers McGraw*

        Frustratingly it’s actually her work on handles that is the problem – despite that being her longtime specialism she actually seems to have been much better at the rest of the teapot. She’s made some very poor decisions that unfortunately weren’t questioned enough. (We are improving our processes but we had them anyway – the problem was that she was seen as beyond question. Bad idea.)

        You have got me thinking though, thank you. I’ve been thinking of this in terms of our lack of a handles specialist not being the issue (the issue being the specialist kind of wasn’t so special). I don’t know if it’s really about who is ‘to blame’ so much as these comments being a little insulting, however well meant. I think I actually just need to calmly say that actually we are able to competently handle (ha!) the handles work.

    2. Mephyle*

      I’m sorry, I know this contributes nothing but I’m picturing you biting your tongue about an entire shipment of teapots with the handle on the inside, or on the same side as the spout.

  169. Heddy*

    What is the strangest interview question that you have ever been asked? Mine was “If you were a cube, how big would you be, what color would you be and how high off of the ground”.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      That’s……….really insane. Interviewers, avoid weird BS like this, please.

      We don’t do weird interview questions in my field, it’s pretty pragmatic.

    2. katamia*

      How high off the ground? So all cubes can fly now?

      I don’t think I’ve ever been asked any strange interview questions. I’ve been missing out. :(

    5. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Ooooh, best answer! “I’d be a four-dimensional time cube.”

    6. Not Karen*

      Not strange in of itself, but I was asked “Where do you see yourself in 10 years?” when I was straight out of college.

    8. writelhd*

      “What’s your favorite physical law?”

      Granted, I had a physics degree, and at the time as a new graduate, that was about all I had to recommend me, so the guy was trying to bring me out of my shell. But he proceeded to tell me what I should have said, which was HIS favorite physical law, and it didn’t get better from there.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I guess pointing out that for every action there is an equal an opposite reaction, would not have been a good idea in this instance.

    9. Venus Supreme*

      Not entirely strange, but I had one interviewer had me describe myself in three words “that my mom wouldn’t use.” Hiiii, lady, how would you know what my mom would say? Did she tell you about my messy apartment?

    10. Kyrielle*

      I wasn’t asked, but witnessed a candidate being asked, “Are you on drugs or something?”

      Poor guy was nervous – the receptionist had given him a cup of coffee and then a refill – so he was rather…jittery…in his phrasing. I don’t _think_ he was in an altered state other than those two factors, but I can’t know for sure.

      Needless to say, being asked that didn’t help his confidence or shakiness, either.

    11. MoodyMoody*

      As a roleplaying table-top gamer, I would have said that I’m a sparkly d6 about a foot off of the table and about to be rolled. Okay, I might have just thought that unless the environment was friendly to people who like Pathfinder, GURPS, Legend of the 5 Rings, et al.

  170. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

    OK, since I’m contemplating this: it’s a slow Friday afternoon. There’s a brewery about 10 minutes away. I have a certain thirst right now, and tea is not satisfying it. It’s cold and snowy.

    How unprofessional would it be to head over, have a beer, and come back for the last two or so hours of work?

    1. Princess Carolyn*

      At my previous job in advertising: not unprofessional at all. But in a science-y setting? Seems like it could be an issue.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        Haha, at my agency you wouldn’t even have to leave the office to start drinking at 3 PM on a Friday.

    3. Rebecca*

      It’s a slow Friday afternoon here in PA, and 77 DEGREES!!! I was just outside, and wanted to just get in the car, drive home, and grab a Yeungling…but I’m staying at work until quitting time. A cold beer is not worth losing my job over! And yes, no drinking and working here…it’s tough, but we gotta muddle through.

  171. LinkedIn Novice*

    Hi all,

    It’s pretty late in the day so I hope this comment doesn’t go unnoticed! My partner is in the process of applying for jobs and is working with someone who I believe is a headhunter/recruiter. This person told my partner he needs to look at companies hiring via Indeed and Glassdoor, then find the hiring managers on LinkedIn and send invitations to connect with those people. I have a LinkedIn account but I use it very casually and I only accept invitations from people who I have personally met. Is this a normal practice? My partner is looking for a job in either business or computer engineering.

    Thanks!

    1. Ellen*

      This is definitely not normal! If he’d interviewed with them and had a good rapport, maybe then, but everyone I know, whether they’re actively hiring or not, is annoyed by unsolicited LinkedIn invitations from strangers.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Nooooo. I would never add someone who I have never met and with whom I don’t have any connections in common. Recruiters may do this, but hiring managers would be much less likely to do so. MAYBE a candidate whom they interviewed and liked. I mean, I probably would not hold it against the applicant, but I would think it was a little pushy. Although that might depend on your industry, that kind of thing is probably expected in, say, sales.

      1. LinkedIn Novice*

        Thanks all, this is what I was afraid of. I am also checking with my brother-in-law who has been a hiring manager for many years. I have a feeling if he also disagrees with this practice, my partner might take his advice more seriously than any warnings that come from me.

  172. GrouchyManager*

    I’m looking for advice on how to address an issue with my employee. I have two direct reports, Sansa and Arya. Sansa has been here for years, and I hired Arya six months ago. Sansa is my admin and Arya is a project coordinator. Sansa dislikes Arya and seems to feel threatened by her. She complains if Arya edits a document that she considers “hers” (which would be any document in our area), but refuses to engage when Arya tries to work with her or inform her of things. She also watches Arya and complains to HR if she thinks she’s breaking the rules. Sometimes Arya will skip her two 15 minute breaks and take an hour lunch (lunch breaks are set at 30 minutes) which other staff are not allowed to do. I don’t mind when Arya does this. She doesn’t have to monitor a phone line and she’s at her desk 15 minutes early every morning. Sansa is 10-15 min *late* every morning, and she dissappears throughout the day when she’s supposed to be looking after the phone.

    I think the problem is that Sansa isn’t used to sharing the department with anyone but me so she’s grown territorial and a little arrogant. Arya was hired temporarily, but she was such a fantastic employee and made such a positive impact that I worked really hard to get the approval to hire her permanently. Arya gets a lot of praise from other employees in the company, including my boss, which visibly irritates Sansa.

    I’ve tried to talk to Sansa about this but didn’t get far. She denies everything. I’m frustrated. Sansa isn’t a great employee but she’s not *terrible* and she’s been here longer than I have and is beloved by our clients. However, I don’t want to lose Arya, who really is a star performer.

    Thoughts?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Don’t let Sansa deny it or change the subject. Lay out your expectations in crystal clear terms.

      “Sansa, Arya is part of the team and I need you to commit to cooperating with her. You are not to monitor her breaks, report her to HR without talking to me first, and I expect you to help Arya if she needs your assistance on a project. This is an expectation of the job, and I need to know you can commit to doing it. Are you able to?”

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Sansa needs some reining in.
      The fact that she denies everything makes matter worse.

      Tell her that part of the job is getting along with everyone including Arya. This means no more complaining, she must work in a cooperative manner; no more reporting to HR (which is going over your head btw); no more break monitoring and she must keep her visible irritations to a minimum.
      Additionally, she needs to be on time and she needs to remain at her phone.
      Failure to do these things will result in follow up discussions/write ups and eventually could lead to dismissal.

      For this many things to be going on, this must have been happening for a while. I’d like to encourage you to take action ASAP.

  173. BTW*

    I might be too late and too far down the thread to get a response but here’s hoping. Should I thank my boss for a bonus I recently received? I’ve been working here for about a year and a half and have done great work and really improved sales. Although I don’t have targets to hit or anything, it’s more of an office sales (booking events) kind of thing. I’m not directly responsible for going out and getting the business but rather really “selling” it to people when they come to us for information. Recently I asked my manager for a raise and more hours. I forfeited the idea of a bonus (she was talking to the boss at that time about them) for the previously mentioned options. I got more hours but not a raise. I’m actually pregnant and going on mat leave mid-June. While spilling to beans to my boss he informed me that I in fact, would be getting a bonus. I really wasn’t expecting much at all and it ended up being a LOT more than I ever imagined. I know I worked hard for it but I feel like I should still thank my boss for noticing and appreciating my work thus effectively thanking him for it. Would that be okay?

    2. Borgette*

      I would reframe it slightly. Something more like “Thanks for [going to bat for / valuing / being flexible for] me. You’re a great manager and I feel valued here.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is great, go with something like this.
        I have always thanked bosses for raises/bonuses/other perks. I think it’s just a good way to operate.

  174. Borgette the Bored*

    Things are really slow at work right now. It’s been slow since I started 6 months ago, but now one of my projects is stalled and my self motivation is giving out. Over the past 6 months I’ve tried asking for more work, started working on a teapot science MOOC series, completed weekly teapot design challenges to build skills, and have even started a teapot design blog to build my portfolio.

    I’m so tired of this! I’ve been learning a lot, and it’s nice to get paid to level yourself up, but it’s getting hard to keep myself going. I miss the fast pace and sense of purpose from my old job and can feel myself getting lazier every week. It’s Friday and 70 degrees outside and I’m stuck at work not doing anything.

    Any advice for staying productive in this sort of situation? What are your favorite things to do when work is slow?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I help coworkers out with day-to-day tasks or special projects. My boss usually has something for me if I ask her; she’s not very good at delegating and always has too much on her plate.

    2. Epsilon Delta*

      Ugh my job was like this for the first year or so. It’s a special kind of awful. And my employer blocked most of those MOOC/coding sites so I was pretty limited in what I could do in terms of self directed learning.

      How much work can your coworkers/manager give you? I had to keep asking people till I found one who would consistently assign me work (manager wouldn’t assign anything). Can you write documentation or training guides for your department? As a last resort, Would anyone really notice if you left early occasionally or “worked from home”?

      1. Borgette*

        Oh man, it would be so much harder to get through this if the internet filter was that strict!

        Our department went through some restructuring in the past year, and management is working through the basics. (Setting priorities, getting a feel for the teams, assessing needs, playing politics, etc.) That uncertainty makes everyone hesitant to kick off new projects. Everyone else on my team is below capacity too, but at least they went into this slow period with some ongoing projects!

        The amount of work I do has been slooowly growing each week, and I have been regularly helping another team add teas to our catalog. How much is too much help though? I’m happy to help, but I don’t want tea cataloger to become my de-facto job.

  175. Anon13*

    I’m not sure how many people will see this and/or remember the initial conversation, but I wrote in a few months ago about my hair. It’s a subtle (professionally done) ombre, and a consultant we work with had a long conversation with me about the fact that she found it inappropriate. Most commenters agreed that there was nothing wrong with subtle, well-done ombre, though opinions were somewhat split on how I should react, with some commenters suggesting that I should talk to my manager to see if this was coming from him and others suggesting that I not do anything unless someone else brought it up again. I wound up not doing anything about it or saying anything and it was never brought up again.

    Until this week. My manager (also the owner of our small company, we’ll call him Fergus) let me know that he was very upset that the consultant (we’ll call her Jane) had said anything to me. Fergus let me know that it wasn’t even something he had noticed, that he thought Jane was way out of line, and that he thought she only said something because she’s looking for ways to be useful to us (and, apparently, she’s decided that policing what we do is one way to be useful). Though I hadn’t really thought about it much recently, it was nice to have Fergus say something to me and validate my feelings that 1) there’s nothing wrong with my hair and 2) it wasn’t Jane’s place to say anything.

    Though I like Fergus as a person (generally), my job hasn’t been great lately for many reasons, so it was nice to have one day end well!

      1. Anon13*

        No problem! Fergus actually said something to me at the end of the day Tuesday and I’ve been waiting for the open thread.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Thank you for updating us! Glad Fergus is on your side. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with a tasteful ombre!

  176. ms crankypants...*

    help me not cut my nose off to spite my face…
    I need to go in for a year end review & raise discussion and I already know some issues and afraid I will let my dissatisfaction here win out.

    We are all overworked; I can deal with that, kinda.
    but I know when I ask for a real raise (not a 1% COL) I’m going to be told that there is no money to give me one. Boss is going to give me song & dance about no money and giving me more vaca isn’t fair and I knew that when I took the job.
    Problem is, she makes 4 times what I do (and more than 4x some of the other staff) , got a $10K raise last summer AND a $17K BONUS last summer. (I do payroll so every week I have to punch in her ginormous salary vs the rest of us peons who are making diddly squat.)

    Like many others on the page today, I was laid off 2 years ago & took this job last year at a huge paycut because I was about to lose the house. It’s been a massive blow to my ego & self-esteem & I’ve been having a hard time finding something better.

    how do I keep myself in check & not throw the bonus & raise back at her?

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Well, knowing that your boss would probably fire you on the spot for using confidential payroll information for your own benefit should probably give you pause. It royally sucks that she’s screwing her employees , but you’re not entrusted with that information so you can zing her about her own bonus. That’d be a huge violation.

    2. Jean who seeks to be Ingenious*

      Take a deep breath and resolve not to say anything if it isn’t both kind and constructive. Redefine “constructive” to include “helping me stay in this job until I can move on to a better situation.” Unfortunately, some contemporary workplaces are massively unfair about sharing the wealth and there isn’t much we can do except eventually move along. It’s not fair, but sometimes it’s better to stick with a less-than-ideal job than to take a stand for justice (“Pay yourself less and pay everyone else more!”) and end up unemployed.

      Try not to let your circumstances continue to grind away your ego and self-esteem. Give yourself credit for finding a way to survive during hard times.

    3. Graciosa*

      It may help to remind yourself that the salary for a *completely different job* has nothing to do with discussions of the market value of your work.

      I too have people above me who make large multiples of what I do – but they are doing different work.

      Personally, I wouldn’t want their jobs – even at those salaries – but evaluating whether or not you’re properly paid only requires you to understand the market for your specific role. If you can keep the focus on your own market value, you will be presenting the strongest case for your raise.

      Discussing what Teapot Quality Inspectors make is not going to be persuasive in raising the salary of a Teapot Handle Maker.

  177. MsChanandlerBong*

    I’ve been waiting for this thread all week! I got the best (worst) cover letter from an applicant this week. The cover letter did not include any details of why she is a good fit for the job or how the company would benefit from hiring her, save for a “strong dedication to the Oxford comma” (it’s a writing position). She referred to her current employer’s procedures as “baroque,” complained that she misses feeling a sense of accomplishment after checking off a task on her to-do list, and claimed that she misses her former telecommuting arrangement, topped off by the sentence “Please give me another.” It was all about her desires, and it also broke the “don’t badmouth your current employer” guideline. It was no “sensual-wristed” cover letter, but it gave me pause.

    1. Allypopx*

      Oh dear. That said, I’d love to hire someone with a strong dedication to the oxford comma. My boss doesn’t believe in it. At all. He thinks it’s snooty.

        1. Spoonie*

          I named my dog after the Oxford comma. I might be just a little dedicated to it…and it fits his personality in ways I never expected.

        2. SophieChotek*

          I like the Oxford comma too. Drives me nuts when people don’t use it — it’s how I was taught to write.

          1. MsChanandlerBong*

            I love it, too. Unfortunately, I often have to follow AP style, so I only get to use it in my personal writing.

        4. H.C.*

          Seems like I’m in the minority against it, then (though I work in the PR/journalism field in the U.S., where no Oxford comma is standard style.)

  178. sorbus*

    So about a year ago I was working at a company, let’s call it A, that I didn’t like very much. I was assigned to a special project where I was colocated at a consultancy, call it B, that was really awesome and I loved, and I very much wanted to work for them, but couldn’t because anti-poaching rules prohibited them from hiring me for a year. So I moved across the country to work for company C, which is in a completely different industry. I love the industry and I love the work I’m doing, but I don’t like the environment and the style of working, and I miss my old city (there are no company C offices out there, and very little in my current industry). I’ve been at C for almost a year now (literally like, 51 weeks), and I want to apply to work at B as soon as it’s been a year. Everyone at the office, except for the office manager, said that I would be a great fit and they’d love to have me there. The office manager discouraged me from applying and encouraged me to stay at A, which I’m pretty sure was motivated more by his desire to keep A as a happy client than to further my professional development. But I don’t know if his opinion would have changed in the past year. I’ve gotten an entreaty, a few months ago, to return to A, which I don’t intend to do. But I do want to go back and work for B. What are any potential pitfalls I should look out for when I apply?

    1. Chaordic One*

      I’m a bit simple-minded lately, but it doesn’t seem as if there are any real pitfalls. Company B might want to check your references at Company A and it is possible that Company A might give you a poor reference because you didn’t come back, but that’s something you can overcome. Company B might not even bother to check. You’ll never know if you don’t apply and try. (Ignore the office manager. He’s small potatoes.)

  179. Overeducated*

    We have a process problem at my job. Basically, the person two levels up from me has to approve every piece of work that leaves our office, no matter how small, as well as managing all the people in our division, funding, and being part of regional and national teams for various issues. The person above him deals with regional and national leadership for two divisions, and also wants to approve anything that goes public no matter how small, from proposal to product.

    What this means is these people are really really busy. I work on a lot of very small projects that should be going public on a fairly regular basis and they are the bottleneck. I don’t know what to do about this, since my stuff isn’t the most important thing on their plates by any means…but it’s my job and I want to do it well.

    Has any had success dealing with a process issue like this? What did you do? Boss two levels up has said he will work on creating a better process because maybe different products don’t all need the most stringent level of review, which is the default…but he hasn’t had time and I don’t think he’s going to.

    1. Annie Moose*

      This would really depend on your situation, of course, but would it be possible for you/your team to come up with a possible solution or a draft process that you could ask him to look over? Giving him something to start with might get you farther than waiting for him to come up with something on his own.

        1. Overeducated*

          I am not in a position to suggest a model myself/with my supervisor given the way our office works, but I did find out and share the process my counterpart in our sister department follows. She has two points of review (an SME and her supervisor), and doesn’t have to get things approved by her department director or our shared division head. (The process is also simpler in that department in other ways.) Honestly, my department director seemed surprised to hear that, but hasn’t indicated that we could just streamline like they do :(

    2. Chaordic One*

      In the past, I was the busy overworked bottleneck. I pleaded in vain with my supervisors for more support (another warm body) or to have some the work redistributed to to other departments where it came from. My supervisors decided that I was the problem and that was the end of that job.

  180. Robin Sparkles*

    My boss just gave me free tickets to an NCAA basketball game on Monday for a team that my husband and I are fans of (my husband especially is a superfan). He called me in his office casually as I was walking by and said “are you doing anything Monday night?” I told him I wasn’t, then he offered me the tickets. My first response was “are you sure?” He said “yeah, you’ve been doing a great job.” I took them and said “thank you so much!” and left his office.

    For some reason, now I am thinking I didn’t show enough gratitude. Does that sound “thankful enough” to you all? I never want to come off as unappreciative and I did say thank you. The conversation just happened so fast though that I feel like maybe I wasn’t grateful enough.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I’d just follow it up with a thank-you note on Monday. “Ted* and I are huge fans of the Globetrotters, and we so appreciate the tickets for the game tonight! We’re looking forward to it, and Ted has his finest jersey ready to go. – Robin” or something like that.

      *Haaaaaave you met my friend Ted?

      1. Robin Sparkles*

        I love that you got the reference and used it in your answer. :)

        Thank you for the suggestion! I actually had just now considered doing just that. I think I will go ahead and do it!

    2. Squeeble*

      I think it would be nice to go back to him on Tuesday morning and say “thanks again for the tickets–we had a great time.” But I wouldn’t worry about doing it now.

  181. Annie Moose*

    Kind of a weird situation (and late in the day), and I probably should just stay out of it, but I’d appreciate outsiders’ input:

    I’m friends with Jane, a long-time intern at my job (she’s actually been here longer than me, off and on, although I’m older and have worked full-time for a few years). There’s this other new intern, Fergus, from the same school as her who is, by all accounts, terrible. I don’t know the guy personally, but multiple people have all talked pretty negatively about him. (apparently he’s very arrogant, isn’t willing to learn, and repeatedly falls asleep in meetings)

    Jane is very upset because she feels that Fergus isn’t being held responsible for his bad behavior–she feels that he’s being treated the same as her, even though she’s worked hard to build up a great reputation. She also thinks that she’d be punished/talked to a lot more severely if she pulled the same stunts. (I told her that this is probably because her manager holds her to a higher standard because he knows she’s worth it, and that he’s just given up on Fergus, but let’s be honest, that’s not necessarily comforting.) It’s gotten bad enough that she’s said more than once that if Fergus is invited back for another internship stint, she might quit.

    Although she’s talked about her displeasure with Fergus to her manager (who I have also heard a lot of complaints about Fergus from), she doesn’t want to make some sort of ultimatum of him or her, and she doesn’t want to ruin Fergus’ future chances. So she hasn’t really told him about how upsetting it is to see this double standard, or how bad things have gotten between her and Fergus.

    I think she should be even more straightforward with her manager, but I don’t think I can convince her to do that, and it’s not really my business anyway. So I mostly just am not sure what I can say to convince her that even though there’s this double standard from management going on, I firmly believe people do recognize her solid reputation and recognize Fergus’ not-so-solid reputation. I mean, people don’t stand around in the breakroom complaining about working with her! (yes, I recognize how unprofessional this is) I think she doesn’t have the greatest self-esteem, so I’d like to buoy her up if I can.

    But I dunno. Maybe I need to just let her vent and make comforting noises rather than say anything.

    1. LK*

      >she doesn’t want to ruin Fergus’ future chances.
      UGH this is SO NOT HER ISSUE this shouldn’t even be on her radar, HE is ruining HIS OWN chances. She should be chatting to HR about the morale issue that Fergus is creating.

      1. Annie Moose*

        I totally agree! I tried to express this–maybe not too well–but she just wouldn’t go for it. :(

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Ironically, tearing down Fergus is probably also helping to erode her self-esteem.

      Jane is your friend. With that in mind sometimes the best way we can support people is to find ways to be empathetic. “Gee, if I were in that situation I’d be feeling pretty crappy myself.”
      Encourage her to think about options, what could she do next? I do believe that the Ferguses of the world come along and motivate us to make a move. They can motivate us to do more and have more. Was she thinking about changes earlier? What does she think about making changes now?
      Tell her about the things you think she does very well with. If you have an idea of where she could go next, share it. Conversely, you might be able to work in, “Fergus is tying up a lot of space in your brain, let’s see if we can figure out a way to undo that.”

    3. Marcy Marketer*

      In the past when I’ve had issues with a coworker, I’ve said to my boss: “Fergus is doing (or not doing) X, Y, and Z, which means I have to compensate in these ways. What is the plan for getting Fergus to accomplish these tasks? What will happen if he doesn’t ever accomplish these tasks?”

      She might also say, “It’s discouraging to me to see someone on my level not meeting their goals without any accountability for him or reward for people at our level who do meet their goals. Can you talk to me a little about if I can expect any changes in the next few months?”

      That being said, Jane is creating a great reputation for herself in ways Fergus is not, so that could be her reward– at least for an internship.

  182. Daria Grace*

    This week I got diagnosed with a quite serious but largely treatable medical condition. Given I don’t know exactly how extensive medical appointment requirements will be or how bad the treatment side effects will be (potentially both substantial at least at first) anyone got tips on how to discuss my needs with my boss? Do I ask her for time off or just tell her when I’ll be gone? Should I tell her what the condition is? I’m a bit scared because she doesn’t like granting leave and she appears to really not like me.

    1. Sibley*

      Right now, maybe mention that you may need to take a few hours off here or there for some medical appointments, then just address each appt individually. Once you have a better idea, you’ll be able to determine the best way to approach it. If you end up needing to take medical leave for example, that’s a very different conversation than a couple of sick days.

    2. animaniactoo*

      If you have an HR department, start there, and gather the info and fill out FMLA paperwork (if your company is large enough to qualify) now against the possibility of needing to use it – this will massively protect you if you do end up needing to take leave that your boss does not want to approve or is potentially upset with you for taking.

      For talking to your boss, I would go with “I’ve just been diagnosed with a serious but treatable condition. I don’t have the details yet on how much time the medical appointments will take and there is a question of how badly I’ll react to the treatment that I won’t know until I start it. I wanted to give you a head’s up that I’ll be coming to you with this in the near future and I’ll fill you in as soon as I have a better sense of what time I may need off for this.” I would say that in a situation where you’re going to need a bunch of accommodation you do need to be willing to name the condition.

    3. Newby*

      I wouldn’t say anything until I knew how much time I would need. I have had a few serious medical issues but my boss is very flexible, so I wasn’t worried about the time off being an issue. Even so, I would go in with dates and times. Ex “I need a week off in April for a miner surgery. I will be out from X to Y”. You can also look into if you qualify for FMLA.

  183. Lady Blerd*

    Well now I have a question: I’ve been gone all week and while I was away, I got a request from the head of another department to be part of their interview board for a position they need to fill. When I came in today, I realized that my minion, Petunia, had been CCed on the email and it seem the request was to the both of us and she jumped at the chance to do so. It was supposed to be for this morning but the interviews are postponed for a week.

    I don’t think she should be sitting on the board. Yes she does her job well and can function with minimal supervision for the stuff she has to do but in reality, our job is vast and she doesn’t understand all of it’s nuances and requirements. She doesn’t have a formal educational training as an HR clerk, I taught her and am still teaching her and she has trained entry level clerks on basic aspects of our job. She still relies on me for answers about what we do and how we do it.

    I’m not sure if I should ask her to rescind her offer to sit on the interview or if I should take it up with our boss and have him speak his vis-à-vis in the other department to explain that Petunia is not qualified enough to be part of an interview board? It’s best I not talk to her today about it because I’m in a prissy mood and it may come out wrong.

    1. LQ*

      Maybe a stupid question, but would it be bad for her to take this on as a stretch assignment. She doesn’t understand all of it and its nuances but would she actively screw something up? If she went and was part of the board and took notes and talked with you about it? It might require more hand holding (as often stretch projects do) but it might be a good opportunity. Yeah, she relies on you for answers, and for this she will too, but would it be possible for that to be ok?

    2. Taylor Swift*

      I think you should let her do it. I very much doubt that she’ll be the key factor in any decision making and this seems like a great learning opportunity.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Why don’t you just answer the email belatedly and say that you will go. That way the both of you can go together and you can use it for training her.

    4. Chaordic One*

      I think you should let her go. It is obviously a little bit of an ego boost for her. Petunia is unlikely to influence the eventual choice and will probably defer to the other members of the board. This could be a very valuable learning experience for Petunia, as you and the other members debate the candidate’s different experiences and qualifications.

  184. she was a fast machine*

    Arg, I’m late to this, but I have a question for the class. My SO is long distance and off at school right now, and he’s trying to find part-time work. Since he lives in a college town, most of the jobs available are about exactly what you’d imagine for that. He has certifications in welding and a few other physical labor type blue collar jobs, so he could do those, but they’re rarely part time. Our finances are not intertwined and I’m completely independent from him financially right now, so this isn’t me trying to get him to work for my sake, just his own. He has loans and family assistance that he’s using to pay his bills and go to school right now, but he desperately needs to get a job to start paying back his family and supporting himself.

    The only problem is that he’s “been trying” for months with no success. But his idea of looking for a job consists of wandering around, applying for some places he likes, and then sitting there waiting for a job to land in his lap. I know that’s never going to find him a job, especially in a college town where there are a lot of others who are younger than him and potentially sound a lot more appealing. Apathy applying for jobs has always been an issue for him, and for as long as we’ve been together he’s struggled to get a new job when he’s been laid off. It’s not intentional, he’s just very clueless and was very coddled before we met(thanks, MIL!). I have no idea how to encourage/guide/direct him without getting frustrated at what I perceive as being lazy at job hunting. He’s a very hard worker when he does work, and does have several years experience in blue collar work(welding, fabrication, construction, etc.), but he just struggles finding a job.

    So long story short, what should I be telling him to do to try to get more jobs? I know they’re out there, even if it’s just McDonald’s or Walmart, and he’s never had trouble getting jobs he pursues, but what can I tell him to DO to pursue these jobs? With almost all of his previous work, it’s been the typical blue collar/small town hiring experience, mostly where he goes in, puts in an application, goes by a few days later to make sure they got everything and maybe talks to the supervisor, and is offered the job on the spot. I know AAM has a lot of advice but so much of it is geared to professionals after college, but he’s not there yet.

    Help me AAM-kenobi!

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Unfortunately, I am not sure that the problem here is anything you can fix. Late afternoon story time! I haven’t dealt with the employment issue specifically, but I have dealt with personal frustration over apathy and procrastination in an SO. For us it’s primarily housework. He’s totally up for helping, he’s just never going to volunteer, if he doesn’t do something right away he forgets that I’ve asked, and when he does do a task he is often not as meticulous about it as I would prefer. We’ve gone around and around, there’s been yelling and crying and apologies and oh so many coping strategies.

      What I realized (and why this is hopefully relevant advice) is that I had to stop hoping that I would one day change the characteristics (apathy, procrastination, and yes, laziness) underlying the problem. Having decided that I would rather live with it than live without him, I’ve worked really, really hard to practice acceptance and address the frustration internally. It can be hard, but it’s made my life 100% more peaceful. And yes, I do more around the house than he does, and sometimes that really cheeses my biscuit, especially as a feminist. I still ask him to do things, but I take care of the things that absolutely 100% must get done myself. And it’s really the only approach I’ve found that works.

      Of course, finances are (generally) SO much more disruptive in a relationship than different standards of housekeeping, and even if it’s not an issue now, you can probably anticipate that it might be one day if you stay together. In the meantime, though, I think you need to approach this as a “you can lead the horse to water” situations. You can certainly help with the cluelessness, but you can’t help with the other issues. So suggest he look for something in the service industry while he’s looking for something better. Suggest he read AAM and link a few of the articles that do apply to students. Ask him if there’s anything you can do that would help. Ask him if there’s anything you shouldn’t do. But when it comes down to it, he’s the one who has to do the work, and there really aren’t any special words you can say to make him do that work. Good luck, for sure.

    2. KR*

      Hi! I would recommend getting him signed up with Indeed, Monster, and other job boards. You make an account; upload your resume, skills, and what type of jobs you’re looking for (you can select many different types); and opt into daily emails. I found the job I just got offered through one of these daily emails. I was getting really apathetic towards job hunting and made it a point to apply for at least one job a day, even if I didn’t think it was an ideal job or I had a good chance of getting it. This kept me thinking about it even if the applications went nowhere. The daily emails helped a lot too because I could scan them quickly on my phone to see if it was something I was interested in without logging on the laptop and settling into job searching.
      Twice/three times a week I also sat down and looked through like five different sites manually to catch what didn’t get put in the emails. I checked Indeed, Monster, USAJOBS, Craigslist, Beyond, and RealJobOpenings. Beyond turned out to be kind of spammy but Indeed and RealJobOpenings were gold mines for my area.
      As for motivating him, maybe remind him how it’s really difficult to get a job the longer he’s out of a job. Job searching isn’t a part time thing. It’s something that has to be on your mind constantly because you never know when the right opportunity will come along. The offer I just got came from a listing that I happened to see just browsing Sunday night. But if I hadn’t taken the time to sit there and browse I wouldn’t have applied in time (they move FAST and it was a close decision). The longer he stalls the worse it will get and the harder it will be to find a job and dig himself out of his financial hole.

  185. Landladylurker*

    So I’m usually just a lurker and I’m not sure if this 100% qualifies for this open thread but I need some advice here.

    I’m a young professional who saved like mad and had an inheritance that I threw into buying a two unit house with the hopes of getting a third income from a renter on top of working full time and a part time job. I’ve got family obligations, busy jobs, a young puppy and a struggling social life.

    My previous renters beat the place up and ran off, leaving me to foot the repair bill as well as losing a months rent and I’m suddenly sunk into credit card debt. For weeks I tried to show the empty apartment (with literally 11/14 appointments being no shows) and then I finally met a potential buyer “Irma”.
    Irma was nice and eager and had lived in her previous place for 6 years. She had letters of recommendation, a steady income, and while she seemed super friendly I had hoped it was her being anxious to get the place.
    I was ignoring a few red flags but now the paperwork is signed and she’s moved in and she seems to want to step in as the pseudo-aunt I never wanted. She tries to enquire all about my life and social life, she keeps commenting on wanting to take my puppy for walks (this dog already goes out for over an hour every day and she’s not a high energy breed), she tells me she’s been bragging to all her friends about my career success, she keeps mentioning her bowling league, and everything I say to try to end the conversation just gets met with questions instead of her letting me politely bow out. If I say I’m going out, she asks where I’m going, if I say I’m out at the park she tries to talk about the weather, etc etc etc. She doesn’t seem aware of boundaries.

    I don’t know how to communicate to her that while she seems like a nice person, I’ve got no interest in having long winded conversations with her on a regular basis. I don’t want to upset her or be rude, because she seems like she’d be an awesome tenant but I’m already stretched too thin and honestly I cannot keep up with half her conversations since she is mostly talking about people I have not and will never meet or trying to tell me all about her day or week. Worse yet i feel like if I was a decade older or if I was a male she would not be so intent on becoming my new Aunt Irma

    Does anyone have tips for communicating a lack of interest in a non-professional landlord-tenant relationship? Or at least stressing that I’m already run thin and while I’m sure her sisters health is very distressing to her, I haven’t got the time. She has a parade of friends so it’s not that she’s alone in the world.

    2. Delyssia*

      I want to make sure I’m reading this correctly–the apartment she’s renting from you is a full apartment/separate unit from your living space, right? It’s not a roommate situation where there’s shared common space? As long as that’s correct, I recommend that every time you bump into her, you just couldn’t possibly stop to chat.

      “Sorry, no time to chat now! Take care!” Keep moving as you say this.

      If you’re coming in, you just have to get to your dog immediately and can’t possibly stop to chat. If you’re going out with your dog five minutes later, your dog can’t possibly wait for her walk. When you come back from walking the dog, you’re expecting a phone call any second.

      And at no point do you wait for permission for her to let you out of the conversation.

      If you feel so inclined (this is not a requirement AT ALL), you can occasionally chat with her for a couple minutes, then make an excuse, not waiting for her permission, and exit as above.

    3. Colette*

      It sounds like you’re sharing stuff about your life. Think about ways to avoid that -e.g. Change this subject, say you have something to do, make an excuse and disengage, or just say no. So if she asks about your job, you say “oh, I like to leave it at the office”, if she offers to walk the dog, you say “I’ve got it covered, thanks!”, if she’s going on about something, you say “it’s been nice chatting with you, but I’ve got a lot I need to do today”.

  186. Sparkly Librarian*

    I have an annoying frequent customer who is doing one specific weird thing that get on my nerves. He calls me by the wrong name — say, “Lizzy” instead of Sparkly. The first couple times I assumed he just had me confused with someone else and it wasn’t relevant to the quick customer service discussion, so I didn’t say anything. A couple weeks later I saw him again and he called me Lizzy, so I said (politely), “Oh, that’s not my name. I’m Sparkly.” and showed him my nametag. Then he did it again another time or two, even when I objected, so it’s obviously on purpose. This was a few months ago. I saw him this week when I was helping a person sitting nearby, and when he said “Hi, Lizzy” with a sneer, I made eye contact and told him. “That’s not my name. I’ve asked you not to call me that. My name is Sparkly.” He immediately responded with “Okay, LIZZY.” which really frosted my cookies. It’s such a small thing, but it’s just being rude with no purpose! I’m afraid I was rude back (although not profane) before I left the room. And then the next day, he went out of his way to greet me with the wrong name! He hasn’t learned anything from it (other than how to push my buttons), and it’s not enough of a rules violation to ask him to leave/have him escorted out, so these are my coping skills:

    1) When he uses the wrong name for me, do it in turn. (Petty, but rather satisfying. He’ll be Dwayne or Leroy or Kevin or Aloysius until I’m Sparkly.) I did that on the last occurrence.
    2) If he repeats it more than once in an interaction, refuse to help him and tell him that he can wait in line at the desk for the next available staff person. (I’ve got backup on that from staff.)

    1. Elizabeth West*

      What a butthead. Good for you for not putting up with it, and good for them for backing you up. I imagine someone like this will eventually mess up enough to get kicked out. (We can hope!)

    2. really*

      Stop engaging. Walk right by him. Clearly he can’t mean you if he uses a different name. If he gets huffy you just say that you didn’t hear anyone call out for Sparkly. And never use the wrong name yourself in your interactions with him.

    3. NaoNao*

      Oy, the “public”! I used to work for a very tiny branch of a public library in a struggling Rust Belt town–in each section we had about…500 books, maybe? I was a page, and usually found a way to keep busy shelving, dusting, processing returns, for the exact reason you described: we were a captive audience for every weirdo/jerk/oddball with a fixation in 500 yards.
      The things I saw!
      We had a very brisk business in DVDs and videos, and we used to get little kids not big enough to see over the counter returning “Bloody Charnel House, Unrated Version!!” type stuff.
      The lower level, below street level, was the common/meeting room. In the 60’s when it was built it had been beautifully made. Someone carved graffiti into the lovely wood paneling. That almost physically hurt me to see.
      But more to your story :)
      We were walking distance (in fact across the street from) a home for the mentally disabled (if that’s the right term? Kind of a mix of all kinds of chronic, incurable, and needs-24-hour-care problems that were mostly non-physical). Well, we got *quite* a parade of characters. Some were sweet, but addled. Some were scary. But man we saw them all!

    4. Mephyle*

      Who is this “Lizzy” he is talking to? Not you, of course. No need to respond. If he talks to Lizzy, turn him over to her and let her take care of his request. Sort of like your #2 option, except that it happens on the first use of the name. Also, my suggestion involves you not reacting as though he’s talking to you and calling you by the wrong name (it has already been demonstrated that he enjoys annoying you that way), rather react as though he’s talking to someone else.

  187. Anon Teapot Instructor*

    I recently ran into my first real snag/disagreement with a colleague. I am an instructor at a public teapot-making school. I’m in charge of teaching the art of making vanilla teapots, while I work closely with chocolate teapot makers, and other instructors in other subjects. My students are usually ones who have had a very difficult time in teapot school, and they need a lot of extra assistance in their basic teapot-making skills. I’ve had an ongoing issue with a chocolate teapot maker causing some issues for my pupils, as she will purposefully make it inconvenient for my pupils to access the chocolate teapots, and the parent of one of those pupils contacted me. Now this parent has sworn up and down that her student has come home covered in chocolate or with pieces of shattered teapots in his hair (not true) but has also had valid issues with the chocolate teapot maker. Because the parent used me as a point of contact, I agreed to talk to the head of chocolate teapot makers (this person’s supervisor) and delineated my concerns of the teapot maker’s ongoing problem behavior. This was all well and good according to my employee handbook, saying that complaints against teapot makers or instructors should be lodged with the complainee’s immediate supervisor.

    Well, I was called into the office of my supervisor for a meeting with her and the head of chocolate teapots, and accused of launching a criminal investigation against this chocolate teapot maker, because I had given credence to the unsubstantiated claims of the parent. I was also told that I had violated policy by not talking to my supervisor first about the complaints that I had. I was raked over the coals for over an hour, without my assistant instructors or other pupils knowing where I had gone, and it was extremely frustrating. I was left scrambling to explain that I had previous issues with the chocolate teapot maker, and that I knew the parent involved was prone to emotionally-charged exaggerations in her story. But otherwise, according to the supervisors, I had done everything wrong and I might as well have been making up everything that I said, because there had been no other complaints lodged against this chocolate teapot maker other than the ones that I and the parent had made.

    The thing is, I had addressed concerns about this chocolate teapot maker multiple times over the course of the past two years that I’ve been working with her. Apparently, those complaints never actually made it to the desk of the chocolate teapot head. I’m really frustrated by my treatment. Other than joining the teapot instructor’s association (union), is there anything else I can do? I really feel like I’ve lost confidence in my supervisor to defend me despite my long track record of getting along well with parents and my students successfully learning how to make complex teapots after years of struggle.

    1. Colette*

      Can you go to your supervisor, explain that you want to understand how you should handle situations like that, and make sure you are on the same page going forward? It sounds like they handled this badly, but can’t fix them, so you need to understand how to get what you need.

  188. Elizabeth West*

    Not my work-related, but this made me so sad!! :(

    I called Local Public TV to suggest they change the membership perks. I got a discount card in the mail (meals, exhibit entrance fees, etc.), but it’s useless to me, because all the discounts are two-for-one, and it made me feel bad since I don’t have anyone to share the discount with. It seemed like they assumed all their patrons are married.

    I was being really nice and trying to make a joke about “Rub it in that I’m perpetually single, hahaha!” and the lady was all sympathetic and then SHE STARTED CRYING. I was like, “OMG ARE YOU OKAY???” She was having a really bad day (something personal; she said her best friend dumped her) and I had to comfort her!

    She did agree that was kind of presumptuous and that she’d let the national org know, since they were the ones who negotiated the patron benefits. I told her to do something really nice for herself this weekend, like go see a movie or something she really wanted to do. Poor lady! It sucks to have to work when someone just took a crap all over you.
    :(

    I’m not sorry I called, though; if a company is going to have perks for their customers/patrons, they shouldn’t do it in a way that seems to leave a bunch of them out.

    1. SophieChotek*

      I agree with you about those discounts that are assuming one has a S/O.
      Or when my local coffee shops has the Buy-One, Get-One Free Drink. I don’t need two drinks…50% off one would be nice.

      Sorry about the lady you spoke with! Hope you and she treat yourself well this weekend!

  189. Overeducated*

    OK I am posting again. Spouse’s postsoc ends in five months. I am concerned spouse is not applying for anywhere near enough jobs because of lack of experience with hiring timelines, and holding out for perfect fits, but I know finishing the postdoc is a big commitment too and I don’t want to nag and make it harder. We need two incomes. What’s the right amount to check in on how it’s going?

    1. Tea Fish*

      If you’ve got 5 months before it ends, I think the right time is probably Now. You don’t necessarily have to frame it in a “so how’s that job hunt going?” way, but maybe if the postdoc has been taking up all their time and you haven’t had a chance to had a State of the Union talk, it’d be good to have one.

      Possible script like thing: “So now that your postdoc is coming to an end, let’s start thinking about the future and the direction we want things to go in. What do we want to work towards? Where do we see ourselves in one year? Two years? Five years? What do we need to do to get there?” The topic of landing a job (and perhaps you gently reminding them that hiring can take a long time) will definitely come up in this conversation, but also you’ll be able to talk about how them getting a job and adding a second income to your lives will enable you to work toward the things that are important to you.

    2. Miss Anne Thrope*

      Is postdoc applying for academic jobs? If so, there’s a particular hiring season that’s winding to an end

  190. lays flat on the floor*

    Also late to the party, but perhaps people might be able to offer their insight…

    My boss has a bad habit of deciding to take on tasks (usually calling people, but occasionally drafting something or reviewing something), never doing it for several weeks/sometimes months despite repeatedly daily or weekly reminders, and then finally someone in the office will say something like, “Hey, looks like [X] still hasn’t been done. Want me to do it, boss?” to which he will be like, “Oh yeah, why don’t you do it. You know I’ll never get around to it.” At this point, the client or professional contact will have been waiting for a long LONG time for a return call from Boss (having been told that Boss will call them back), only speak with someone else entirely weeks or months after the fact.

    This happens all the time, every day. We lose clients over it, prospects over it, and professional relations over it. I want to come up with a script or a strategy to approach him about this and gently suggest that he delegate things earlier on, instead of only when it becomes a fire (and spare us hours upon hours of reminding him about what needs to be done.) On the downside, Boss has a tendency to get really huffy and dismissive about people he considers “too needy” or “too demanding” of his time and attention, even when it’s completely justified. Any suggestions, scripts, tales of commiseration…?

    1. North Dakota Jones*

      I feel you. One of the analysts I work with/report to is super horrible about communication – not forwarding e-mails from clients, not returning calls, not passing along RFPs, the works. Most clients learn within a week or two to contact me instead of him, but I still need him for stuff, because I don’t have the experience, knowledge, certifications to do projects on my own. Usually I can do a good job of keeping on top of him and annoying him until he does what I need him to do…but some times things fall through the cracks, like the info request that he said he was going to send but then sat on his desk for over a month. And I had no idea, because he told me was sending it.

      1. flat*

        Ah yes, “he told me he was going to send it but then didn’t send it for months” is pretty much the story of my life here. Not putting in his own notes, forwarding important correspondence, and passing on promises he’d made is also part of his MO.

    2. Wing Girl*

      Can you and your coworkers start suggesting one of you complete the task, such as after one or two reminders, instead of waiting weeks or months? Since the boss is amenable to that eventually, start offering earlier.

  191. Miss Elaine E.*

    Hello:
    I need some last-minute advice. I have a career services business that is small and fairly new. A client referred my services to a colleague who then called me seeking help for her daughter, a soon-to-be graduate. The daughter and I were to have had a phone consult last weekend, but she postponed at the last minute because of a class obligation (this from her mother). I told the mother I would pencil in the daughter for tomorrow, which the mother confirmed. However, I have not received any further communication. (Typically I ask for payment before the phone consult but because this is a young, still-in-school woman, I chose to be lenient.)
    Anyway, should I just call the daughter at the appointed time tomorrow? Or, email both of them this evening asking for confirmation and for payment/completed forms etc.)?
    Thanks for the advice.

    1. LK*

      Does the mother know that this is normally a pay in advance scenario? Next time I would explain that and procede as you normally would… leniency very seldomly pans out well in these scenarios… :(

  192. Police oral boards*

    My sister has a police board interview coming up! Nobody in the family is of a law enforcement background and we have little idea what to expect. A lot of the advice online is EXTREMELY basic (dress well, speak clearly, don’t be a jerk). I assume this varies a by department, but does anyone have suggestions about the kinds of questions she should prepare for? The job advertisement gives us some ideas, but I would appreciate hearing from anyone with experience in this area!

    1. Elizabeth West*

      You don’t say what the job is, but I think I have something useful. This is the advice a retired police administrator who was one of my crim instructors gave me for a crime analyst position I tried for in 2012 (I never got called for it). I took notes. I assume any interview with a police department is going to be similar, though the job might not be the same, so here they are.

      1. DON’T talk too much. Answer the question they ask and then SHUT UP. (He knows I’m very verbal, hence this advice, haha, but plenty of people babble when they’re nervous.)

      2. Practice your answers beforehand; have answers ready for questions about skills. Have concrete examples (i.e. actual scenarios) of the portable skills from the job description.

      3. If they ask “Why do you want this job?” have a two-sentence answer that says this in essence. Express interest in this particular job, not just any job.

      4. They may ask behavioral questions, like “How would you handle it if someone asked you to do something you thought was wrong,” or something of that nature. Speaks to ethics. Have an example of something. They’re looking for values, integrity, etc. Look in the job description for things you can relate examples to.

      5. If they ask “Anything else you want to tell us?” have a couple of sentences that you are here because you want THIS job. You understand what the job entails and are ready and eager to step into that role.

      6. They might ask, re background check, “What’s the worst thing we’re going to find out about you?” We talked about what my answers would be, but the thing he stressed most was if there is something bad (like a traffic ticket), to be regretful.

      7. They may likely ask about prior contact with law enforcement. My impression from him was that they wanted to find out if the contact was positive or negative, though he didn’t actually say this.

      8. If they ask about any problems getting to work on time, say there shouldn’t be any.

      9. If they ask about shift work, or on-call stuff, say yes, that is okay. In police work, emergencies can sometimes be all-hands-on-deck. If you’re applying to an actual shift position, like Police Services Representative (the ones who answer the non-emergency line), then I would not say you don’t want to work nights. You WILL work nights.

      10. If they ask if you have any questions, and you don’t, it’s okay to say “I can’t think of any.”

      He said it would probably be a panel interview; he said this was common. So nonverbals (they will be watching your body language, etc):

      –Sit quietly, legs crossed, hands laced together on lap. If sitting at table, okay to put hands on table.
      –Don’t smile too much, but don’t be too serious either. Okay to chuckle; don’t guffaw.
      –When listening, make eye contact with person asking. When replying, 50% eye contact with the person asking, the rest with the others so as to include them in the answers.

      I hope that helps some.

      1. Police oral boards*

        Aaah, this is really excellent, thank you! She’s an applicant to be a police officer — to be in the next class of recruit trainees. They are totally going to ask her 3-7, I can feel it.

        Thank you for keeping your notes!

        1. Elizabeth West*

          You’re welcome! This was for an administrative job, but some of the same rules apply. They DO check you out quite thoroughly–you should have seen the application I filled out just for an internship!

    2. Evan Hansen*

      Like you say, this varies by department, but I’ll share my experience working in police administration. The most important thing is to be completely honest. If they’re running a polygraph test, disclose everything–even if it seems irrelevant. For example, my examiner didn’t care that I’ve pirated movies, but he did care that I was honest about it. (I think polygraph tests are invasive and not entirely accurate, but they’re easier when you know you’ve shared everything. I told my examiner about fights I had with my brother when I was 5!).

      They might also ask questions about your sister’s family and friends. For example: does she associate with anyone who uses illegal drugs? Would she turn them in? (The answer to the second question doesn’t necessarily have to be yes. There’s a difference between someone who smokes marijuana occasionally and someone who deals it).

      Police work, even in admin, can be very unpredictable. We always say we’re dealing with the most urgent thing until a more urgent thing pops up. So, I had a few questions about things like multitasking and re-prioritizing.

      Finally, there will also likely be questions about handling confidential information. How do you determine if something is confidential? How would you protect confidential information? Try and find the police agency’s policies regarding this ahead of time.

      Good luck to your sister!

  193. Lightly-chewed Jimmy*

    Programmers/programmer-adjacent people: I’m looking for a new programming language to start learning (to keep me current, pick up ideas that can be translated to my work, etc). What language would you recommend?

    1. CAA*

      What kind of work do you do and what languages do you already know?

      Java is a good general purpose language if you don’t already know it. If you want to work in web applications, then node.js.

    2. sorbus*

      Python is easy to learn and there’s been a lot of call for it in my industry lately. Go is also getting a lot of buzz.

      Bar none, my favorite language for learning new concepts and new ways of thinking about problem solving, though, has been Scala.

      1. Lightly-chewed Jimmy*

        Python, Go, and Scala, thanks! new ways of thinking about problem solving sounds like right what I’m looking for, thank-you very much!

  194. Feathers McGraw*

    Between the mystery lunch parcel and the observation about the under-qualified chicken this may just be the best open thread I’ve seen.

  195. TeapotTeacher*

    I’m currently in the position of negotiating with a company over a job I was offered because it comes with a very broad non-compete clause–probably unenforceably broad, but I believe in only signing what I can abide by.

    Has anyone else been in this position and had it end well?

  196. Beaded Librarian*

    So question isn’t mine personally but I saw it on a triathlon specific group and I’m wondering about other’s opinions on a site that this question would be more specific to.

    This person was commenting that their boss had called them into the office telling them that their boss thought the triathlete was training too much and it was going to affect their work and wanted them to not train so much. Not that the boss thought it was affecting the work just that it might.

    How would you handle a situation like that?

    1. animaniactoo*

      “Please let me know if you see it starting to affect my work and if it does I’ll work on pulling back on it.”

      1. Colette*

        I wouldn’t even do that. I’d say that it was important to me, and ask how they believe it’s affecting my work. I wouldn’t give them the decision-making power aboutwhether I continue, though.

        And I’d stop talking about it at work.

  197. EM*

    I could really use some advice for a career change.
    For context, I graduated from college 3.5 years ago and I have about 3 years of work history in entry-level administrative roles.

    So far, I’ve enjoyed and valued in my work life :

    –an element of urgency – I don’t mean that some things need to be done in the next few days, I mean periodically needing to handle something *immediately*
    –lots of contact with clients
    –contact with multiple teams inside the organization
    –“real-life” skills – learning things and developing skills that are going to be true and useful outside of that one –company and/or that one role
    –often learning new things

    So far I’ve only come up with Sales or maybe Client Services as a possible career path. I’d love to hear suggestions/thoughts anyone has on a potential career with these elements!

    1. Colette*

      Customer service would work, possibly in the executive customer service level. These are the people who reply to customers who write to executives. The issues are usually varied and there’s built-in urgency for some of them. You work with all departments, and have to solve the issues no one else can solve.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      Instructional job of some kind? Like teaching employees how to use particular software programs, develop other soft skills like public speaking or presentation skills?

  198. Brit*

    The career office at my school said to email the people you network with after you meet them. As in, if you go to a job fair and talk to a bunch of recruiters/hr people/company employees you should grab business cards (and ideally give out yours!) from everyone you talk to and then later email them, saying something specific about the meeting and thanking them.
    I went to a large, but pretty casual event today (didn’t even dress up), without a resume or business cards. I am not currently job hunting, just getting a feel for the market and industry. The event was a general event for industry job seekers, for current students in training, and for people curious about the industry. I only got business cards from a handful of people I talked to. Many companies only had swag out, but no business cards, so nothing to give the names of who was there representing the company.
    In the real world (not my career office’s idealistic world) am I really supposed to email everyone I met? They would have met hundreds-thousands of people today. And if so, how do you keep track? Do you take notes? But how/where is it practical to take notes in a crowded event with no where to step aside (because if you step aside you’ll be at the next booth)? I saw a handful of people taking notes while actually talking with the booth members, but most people were simply chatting and then moving along to the next one.
    And lastly, would this advice change when the time comes for me to actually job hunt? For that time, would I be expected to be dressed up, with a resume, and to email people afterwards?
    Thank you for any advice from the real world! I appreciate that my school has a career office, but some of their advice seems dated and/or not realistic/relevant.

    1. NaoNao*

      So, I’ve been in the same boat.
      My strategy has been to connect with one-two key people and then ask them for business cards. In a day or two, add them on LinkedIn.
      I think when they say “meet” it means more like “exchanged more than a hi, and two sentences”. Like a full, 5 minutes or more conversation.
      You can bring a pen and a small notebook and then after you take a card, right in front of them, turn it over and make a note on the back “Hiring season March” or whatever.
      Honestly, it’s kind of rare that a true strong lead would come from this kind of thing, but you never know!
      When you’re ready and looking, I think you want to dress smart casual and have business cards and resumes ready. Do a “lap”—stopping by each booth briefly, getting a feeling for each option. Then stop by the 3-5 you felt were the best match and spend 10 minutes talking, giving your card and taking theirs, and giving them your resume if they seem open to it.
      Quite frankly a lot of these people are there to pitch their product as much as to offer jobs, so keep that in mind too :)

  199. Oscar Madisoy*

    There’s one line in Bruce Springsteen’s “Born In The USA” that has always bothered me. It goes something like this:

    “Come back home to the refinery, hiring man says ‘Son, if it were up to me…'”

    Which implies that if the hiring man had the final say, the Springsteen character would get the job. But if the decision was not up to him, why is he the hiring man? I mean, isn’t the purpose of the hiring man to, er, hire?

    [Vent mode ON]

    Ya know, “if it were up to me” has got to be one of the greatest escape hatches ever created in the history of the world. The interviewer doesn’t have to actually prove that if it really were “up to me,” he would hired the applicant, so he gets to look good while the applicant remains unemployed.

    [Vent mode OFF]

    1. Panda Bandit*

      With lyrics like that I think the hiring man and the owner of the refinery are different people and the hiring man has his hands tied by the owner.

  200. Candi*

    Many years ago, when the Clinton presidency was only partway through its run, me and my high school classmates were forced to sit through attended a talk from a guest.

    Among other things, she told us to always make sure to hand our resumes or applications to a manager, and not to leave until we’d seen one. You wanted the manager to remember you, she said.

    However,/i>, she told us this only applied to restaurant service and other low-level jobs.

    I saw a story today that shows the first part of this (rather silly) advice is still alive and well -but at least some of those passing it on forget/don’t know both the second piece of advice, and forget to advise diplomacy is in order.

    To summarize:

    4:30 end of day at business. Only the butt-in-seat workers and a few back office people remain. A student comes in to ask about internships and to drop off a resume -but will not leave until he speaks to someone in HR. Who have all gone home for the day.

    After a long time of trying to convince the kid to just leave the paperwork already, the receptionist goes in back, grabs a random coworker, and asks her to pretend to be a manager. Which she does, and the kid leaves. But the coworker makes sure HR knows exactly how the resume was dropped off.

    Another kid being given very bad advice that’s affecting his job prospects.

    Link: https://notalwaysworking.com/well-resume-later/49679

    1. KR*

      Eeeeeek. I’ve been job hunting and my husband was like, just walk in, ask for the manager, and shake their hand as you hand them the resume! And I was like……..No. (he’s never had to job search or worked outside of the military so not his fault!)

    2. Not So NewReader*

      The few times I have dealt with anything remotely similar, I have just said NO.

      “Can I see the hiring manager?”
      NO.
      “Can I talk with HR?”
      NO.

      The first time they ask I say no and explain.
      The second time they ask I say NO and let that word hang in the air. They know they have asked me the same question twice. It takes them a few seconds to collect their thoughts then they finally leave the papers with me as I suggested initially.

  201. Need to be grave*

    My boss wants to promote me to a client-facing senior role for which he says I need to develop gravitas. If anyone knows someone who has gravitas can you please give me specific examples of the way they act that makes them have gravitas. Thanks in advance

      1. Need to be grave*

        He gave me some examples of what not to do but when I asked what I should be doing all he suggested was I copy someone I think has gravitas. He asked if I could think of anyone and I said Albus Dumbledore. He said that comments like that are part of why people think I’m younger than I am and don’t take me as seriously as they should. He’s not the first person to say stuff like this to me but it seems to be one of those things that is hard to define and you are expected to just know how to do it without being taught.

        1. Need to be grave*

          Ok weird the reply went to the wrong person – that was supposed to be reply to Temperance.

          I’m already pretty assertive probably too quick to correct senior people if anything! the issue is more that people think I’m young. I’m a very bubbly person and add that to the fact that I look like a young woman (I’m 37 but look a lot younger) it means thee older male clients see me more as a junior person than an expert. I am more than able to do the work but my body language and appearance and attitude all make me seem younger. For example I sit with my feet up a lot (because I’m 5’2″ and office chairs are designed for much taller people so this is the only way I can get comfy). my husband says this probably reminds them of their daughters or granddaughters which is probably where my boss is coming from – no one wants to take advice from someone they think of as a kid.

          He told me specific stuff I was doing that doesn’t help – sitting with feet up, walking fast, speaking fast, talking about Harry Potter, using particular words etc. All of which I have since stopped doing in work. But he was kind of at a loss when I asked for examples of stuff I should do.

          I’ve seen guys who just command the room and instantly get respect. But I can’t figure out how they do it. That’s what I’m aiming for.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Yeah, it’s probably about the bubbliness and the young-reading mannerisms like sitting with your feet tucked up under you. (I sympathize; I’m sitting that way right now.)

            If you build a reputation for being great at what you do and really thoughtful about work stuff, in theory the rest of it shouldn’t matter … in a healthy workplace. But yeah, if you’re dealing with older clients, I can see how they might be disconcerted if they’re getting cues that read “young and not serious.” So maybe the thing to focus on is “I need to make older clients confident that they’re dealing with a serious, skilled person” — I bet if you keep that in your head, the right behaviors/mannerisms will follow from there.

          2. CM*

            This question makes me sigh because there are often gender dynamics tied up into having “gravitas.” In your case, it does seem like you may be doing things that read young… but specifically, female and young. Anyway, here are my tips even though I think you deserve respect for doing a kickass job.

            Do:
            -speak slowly and enunciate. When you rush, it sounds like you don’t expect that people will pay attention to you.

            -keep a relatively even tone of voice when you speak.

            – speak in declarative sentences.

            Don’t:
            -nod. When someone is speaking, just sit and listen without reacting through either body language or affirming sounds like “Uh-huh.”

            -use exclamation points in your emails.

            -use abbreviations or slang, like “comfy” or “veggies.”

            -use pop culture references unless they’re pretty universal across age groups.

            – apologize unless you genuinely and significantly messed up.

            – use qualifying phrases like “I think maybe…” or “Maybe I shouldn’t bring this up, but…”

            1. Need to be Grave*

              Thanks a million this is exactly what I was hoping for. I will add these to my list. That’s really interesting about the nodding – I always make a point of trying to encourage people when they talk, never thought that could be a bad thing.

              (I do think there may be a teeny bit of sexism in there too but since the issue is how the client sees me Its kind of irrelevant whether my boss is being a bit sexist or not – he’s not going to be able to stop the clients from being sexist.)

  202. Dustbunny*

    I could do with some advice about job titles.

    I started at my current organisation as a Teapot Officer, and acted up as maternity cover for my boss’ role of Teapot Manager for 8 months. During this time there was a restructure, my boss decided not to come back, and they removed the officer post. They also renamed the manager role to Teapot Adviser, partly to indicate that it’s now a matrix management role and no longer has a direct line report. Otherwise the job responsibilities and salary are the same.

    So I’m now permanently Teapot Advisor. No one in my industry uses the title Advisor, so I’m a bit concerned about how I will explain this when next applying for a job. Would it be ok to list the role as ‘Teapot Manager/Advisor’ on my CV?

  204. Kayla*

    I’ve been reading AAM for a few years now, and am coming out of lurking because I desperately need some advice regarding my current situation. I’ve been employed with non-profit Teacups for twelve years. It’s a demanding job, but for the most part, I’ve enjoyed it because I really like feeling that I’m helping people. The problem is Manager. Manager is a rock star at the technical aspects of his job, but people-management is not his strong suit. He is passive-aggressive, frequently angry/cursing and just generally in a sour mood most of the time. It took me awhile when I was new to catch on that this was his actual personality, but I was able to deal with it for the most part because I did like the job. He has twice been put on PIPS due to “bad attitude” but has successfully gotten through them, changing enough to satisfy his boss, but nothing has changed regarding the way he treats those of us who report to him. One of the more junior team members told me she was “a little afraid” of him. Three other team members have quit and been replaced in the last two years. Going to his superiors about this will gain nothing, I can assure you. They want the great results that he produces.

    The proverbial straw that broke my back occurred three weeks ago. I had requested to use four days of vacation to help a family member through a difficult situation. Manager approved those days, and I checked in with him again beforehand; there seemed to be no problem. Family member’s situation was resolved in shorter order than anticipated. I let Manager know, but did use the two remaining vacation days. When I returned, he was angry that I hadn’t come back immediately. Because he was angry, in my absence, he had had another team member go through some of my files to find errors. There were a few minor ones, nothing serious, and easily correctable. However, he spent about twenty minutes lashing out at me over them. I was so stunned that I didn’t say much. But in my head, I just snapped. I was just…done. The next day, he came and apologized, which is his usual MO.

    His lashing out at me wasn’t anywhere near the first time he’s done this in the twelve years I’ve been there, but I’ve resolved that it will be close to the last time, because I’m leaving. It’s so bad for me that I’ve been getting chest pains when I think about going to work. My blood pressure is through the roof, and I’ve been placed on a second blood pressure med. It’s not working very well.

    I had been determined to stick things out for one more year, when I could begin to collect Social Security early. I have some decent investments, a good financial adviser, and close to no debt. While my adviser would rather see me wait, I probably could be ok quitting now. My plan is to find another job, because I will need health insurance and will have to pay for that if the new employer doesn’t.

    I know conventional wisdom is not to quit before having another job lined up, and I am looking, but it may take awhile. I’m worried about paying for health insurance, and also about the market. I’m terrified that I would quit and then the market crashes and my investments disappear, and what if I can’t find another job? But, I literally get sick and shake every day as I’m getting ready for work. My anxiety about having to face Manager another 40 hours a week, every week, is awful. I just don’t think I can continue to do this for much longer. I think everything has just built up so much over the last several years of dealing with him that I’ve burned completely out.

    If anyone can please offer some advice, it would be greatly appreciated. And, also, if I’m nuts to be thinking about leaving without something else, please feel free to let me know. I’m open to hearing anything that anyone wants to say. I just feel lost right now, and could use some clear thinking from other people. Thank you in advance for any advice you may have.

    1. Colette*

      The big problem with quitting without having something else lined up is that it may take longer than you think to find something. So you should give serious thought to what happens if you don’t find something else.

      Having said that, if your job is affecting your health, that’s a good sign that something needs to change.

      Have you tried adjusting the way you think about how your boss behaves? You need to treat him with (outward) respect, but you don’t need to take how he behaves to heart. You can think of it as if you’re watching a movie, or just remind yourself that quitting is an option but you’re staying because right now you’d prefer the health insurance, or pretend you’re an anthropologist who is studying the habits of jerk bosses.

      Quit if you need to do so, but see if changing your reaction is enough to get you through.

      1. Kayla*

        Thank you, yes I’m outwardly respectful to my manager. I’m somewhat resigned to staying until I can get another position. I’ve mostly shut down emotionally at work when I have to deal with him. I’ll just keep it in my head that I could quit, and hopefully that will help. It won’t, really, but it’s about my only option, I guess.

    2. Observer*

      Start looking now, but give yourself a timeline. You could retire, even if it would be tight next year, so that would be a good time to quit even if you don’t have something lined up. It doesn’t mean you have to stop looking, but it means that you won’t drown if you don’t find something. And, knowing that you have an escape plan could help you deal with what you have to deal with on a day to day basis.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I hope you see this. Family member got a raw deal at a long term job. He left. It took about 7 weeks and he found something else. He worked there a year and a half and then retired. He only did the 1.5 years to meet his financial goals. He was comfy without doing the 1.5 years.

        If you knew for a fact that you were going to spend your retirement years as sick as a dog because you pressed on for one more year here, would you make yourself do this?

        This crap erodes our health in ways that is almost unimaginable. Please think very carefully here. It’s very easy to get focused on the wrong thing.

    3. Happymammy*

      You say you are worried about your investments but it seems like you would have been cashing them in in a year anyway? Or would you have been still worried about them in a year?

      Can you try looking into cashing in your investments now? Most pensions allow you to transfer some or all of your fund into a cash fund as you approach retirement age. That may alleviate some of the concerns you have.

      It seems you feel you need a job both for income and for health insurance. It may also be possible to split your problem in two – 1 you need money to live for another 40 weeks 2 you need health insurance for another 40 weeks. You say you would be collecting social security early next year so what was your plan for health insurance next year? Can you bring that forward?

      If you can find a reasonably priced health insurance that you can buy without your employer then you could solve both problems by having an income stream that isn’t necessarily from employment – i.e. By setting up a business or by selling your old things or by doing freelance work or taking in a lodger or renting out your entire property and living somewhere smaller for a year or something. It might not need to be a “job”.

      Work out exactly how much money you need to make to get you to your retirement age with the minimum level of healthcare you feel comfortable purchasing. Then consider all the ways you can make that money not just getting another job. That might help you figure out next steps. Good luck.

  205. Eric*

    I just want to vent about crappy recruiters today.

    So yesterday, I got a random cold call at work. I picked it up because I’m the emergency contact for my parents and my brother… so of course it turned out to be a recruiter who immediately launched into a rapid fire job description. I said “you’re calling me during work hours, please don’t contact me again” and hung up.

    A few minutes later, I got an email from the same recruiter, with this golden line:

    “Hi Eric,

    Apologies for calling you up at work before. But word of advice: we can only call the number you have listed, so if you don’t want to be called at the office, don’t list your office number on LinkedIn.”

    Followed by a copypaste job description. And that was sent to my personal email, professional email, and work email. Brilliant guy. Not.

    This morning (yes, Saturday morning — doesn’t bother me but whatever) I got an email from a recruiting startup who specifically mentioned that they a) target people who aren’t actively looking for jobs (what?) and b) exclusively work with startups. My LinkedIn specifically says I’m not interested in startups.

    I know I’d be terrible at recruiting, but most of these guys know nothing about sales. Why would you ever try to argue with someone who says they’re not interested? How the hell is that going to make them want to work with you?

    Tech is so weird. I love what I do, but the industry culture is full of self congratulating weirdos who think they should do the complete opposite of whatever makes sense.

  206. Troyette Omnicharge*

    Hi there,

    I am in a terrifying position. I have a slightly junior colleague who is sh*tstirring like a ninja. My colleague’s work is OK, but it’s regularly let down by silly mistakes or misconceptions. I’m responsible for the quality of the output so it drives me nuts. I’m also a confrontation-avoider and my colleague really isn’t. The other slightly junior colleague is much better from an accuracy point of view, but the work is still a bit lackluster. This really has been my only problem with them.

    My feedback in comments on the documents has reflected my frustration with this in the past – but for the best part of the year I’ve toned this down. I know my failings. But junior colleague #1 is very good at winding me up. I’ve been told verbally by this person that “You often think people are out to get you and you’re paranoid. This time you’re not.” And many allegations have been thrown at me. Our line manager has taken what #1 has said verbatim, and even when I’ve said that’s not true, I never said that, I get that dismissed with “Well, that sounds like something you’d say”. I’m now on a short-term objectives list which has things like “don’t say this in the office” or “don’t hold an ad-hoc meeting to feed back review comments”. But if #1 is a bad actor, and can rely on #2 to corroborate a lie – I am screwed. I would record my entire day every day just to ensure I’m not caught out, but doing that is illegal if people don’t know you’re recording. I can get fired if someone wants to lie, basically.
    What can I do?

    1. Worker Bee (Germany)*

      Focus on the things that are impacting your job and ask your manager for advise on how to handled it.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I hope you are actively looking for a new job.
      Make sure you are doing everything on your objectives list. Try to keep things calm and get out ASAP.

    3. Anonymuch*

      For the sake of playing devil’s advocate, if you’ve got nothing to be ‘caught out’ over why would #1 make something up?

  207. Worker Bee (Germany)*

    Focus on the things that are impacting your job and ask your manager for advise on how to handled it.

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