my assistant quit because of St. Patrick’s Day pinching

by Alison Green on March 20, 2017

This letter was originally part of a five-short-answers column, but it’s getting enough interest that I’m making it its own post. The other four letters that were originally bundled with it are now here.

A reader writes:

This past Friday, the office I work at got into the spirit of Saint Patrick’s Day. We were all asked to wear green, and items such as green hats, clovers, and other symbols of the day were encouraged. Non-alcoholic green drinks and green food were ordered for a catered lunch for everyone.

Despite being Irish (in fact the only Irish person employed here), my assistant declined to participate. She had complained that it was offensive and cultural appropriation.

The first incident happened when she was pinched while on the way to a meeting. She yelled at the person who did it. The second incident was before the meeting, she was pinched as she sat down. I was not present for either incident. For the second incident, she said she was pinched near her butt. The person who did it claimed he didn’t mean to do it there and she had started to sit down. My assistant got angry and, according to people in the meeting, she walked out and threw her ID badge down. No one has seen her since, and when I called she said she quit and hung up. People from the meetings said she didn’t understand the pinching and was angry and had yelled.

I’ve never had someone quit abruptly before. If she asks for a reference in the future, how do I decline? Should I let her next employer know she quit abruptly? Since she was my assistant, should I address it with people?

It doesn’t really matter if she “understood” the pinching or not. She shouldn’t have to get pinched at work, and the fact that people are brushing it off like it’s nothing that should have bothered her is weird. Even people who enjoy the pinching “tradition” for St. Patrick’s Day should understand if it turns out that someone else is bothered by it.

Quitting on the spot was a pretty extreme reaction — although nearly having her butt pinched is a pretty extreme thing in and of itself, and it sounds like she was already pretty upset with the way your office was handling the day. And for what it’s worth, plenty of Irish people do have problems with the way St. Patrick’s Day is celebrated in the U.S.; she’s not pulling that out of thin air, and it’s sort of disrespectful of your office to brush off the concerns of the one person with an actual ethnic connection to the holiday.

Given all that context, you should give her whatever reference you would have given her if she hadn’t walked off the job. If she would have gotten a good reference before this, you should give her a good reference now. It also might be wise to apologize to her for what happened.

You may also like:
{ 1,450 comments }

{ 1,450 comments… read them below }

  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I’m putting this up here so hopefully people see it before commenting. Please keep your comments here constructive and do not pile on the letter writer.

    1. Renee Noel*

      This is a very interesting situation. On one hand I understand the assistant’s reaction because if she already made it public that she does not wish to be pinched, than her co-workers should respect her boundries. She also has the right to be upset if one of those pinches fell under the category of sexual harassment. I believe her reaction would only be appropriate if the pinch could be considered sexual harassment. If she was exaggerating; however, the reaction was a complete over reaction. If I was her employer and she asked for a recommendation, I would just be honest about the situation. I would also look into her claim of sexual harassment, because that is –to me– a very serious claim. Then to address the other workers, if they ask, go ahead and explain what happen. If the co-workers do not ask, then their is no point in explaining the situation.

      1. Gadfly*

        She shouldn’t need to make that request–It should be assumed you don’t pinch people without having clear consent.

      2. Gordon*

        The entire thing is irrelevant… What is relevant is that she was pinched without her consent. That is assault.

      3. Lara*

        If I called a referee and they said, “Oh, employee quit without notice because people were pinching her.” I wouldn’t think less of the employee.

      4. RUKiddingMe*

        “…if she already made it public that she does not wish to be pinched…”

        She should never have *had* to make it public. Not getting assaulted at work should be the default.

      5. Sarah*

        Irish person here and have never heard of St Patrick’s Day Pinching – what the actual f***?

        I would walk out too. AND be horrifically offended. How is this acceptable???

    2. Erin Maura Donley McGurn :)*

      PINCHING?? I am of Irish descent and in my 50s, and never heard of such a thing. That’s beside everything, but I kind of lost my concentration when I saw that. Pinching?

      1. ReneeB*

        It’s a grade school thing. The last time I encountered “fail to wear green and you get pinched” was in probably 5th grade. Even the school administration saw fit to put an end to it then. And I’m no spring chicken.

        It’s utterly bizarre for it to be taking place today in an office of adults.

  2. Gaia*

    OP 1 I would quit in a heartbeat if I was being pinched at work. Particularly if it was because I wasn’t participating in something I felt was cultural appropriation (she isn’t wrong there, btw) of my culture in an office where I am the only one of that culture.

    Can you imagine for a moment if during Black History month all non-black employees showed up to work in what they felt were clothes or costumes depicting black culture and they physically harassed (which is what pinching is) the sole black person in the office because that person didn’t participate? Would you really be surprised if that person quit suddenly when no one seemed to think this behavior was inappropriate?

    People have a right to not be assaulted at work. My office had a lot of people dress in green to celebrate St Patrick’s Day, too. No one was pinched. Because we are adults who realize that is wildly and unacceptably inappropriate in the work place. In fact, I would be tempted to say the two (TWO!) people who pinched her should face serious disciplinary action and possibly be fired. And you need to apologize to your assistant on behalf of the company for her experience. And you should let her come back if she wants to, but don’t be surprised if she doesn’t. But at minimum do not hold this against her in a reference.

    1. Drew*

      Co-signing everything here. OP1, please consider carefully how all this appeared to your assistant: your office enthusiastically celebrated a holiday that she found offensive, and when she declined to participate (which was a mild reaction under the circumstances), she ended up getting assaulted TWICE as a result. Unless done very carefully, pinching HURTS; it’s definitely not something anyone should be expected to put up with or overlook.

      Your employees were way out of bounds here and you should definitely apologize to your former assistant for not taking immediate action after the first time she was pinched and for not taking her objections to the holiday more seriously.

      1. JessaB*

        Yeh and if she’s like me, with medical issues and medications that make me bruise or leave me vulnerable to bleeding unexpectedly (blood thinners, etc.) that could be a BIG darned deal if you pinched me too hard. It’s wrong in an office no matter how you discuss it, but some people could be more than annoyed by this. It’s appropriative and it could cause medical issues. And no an office would probably NOT know for instance I’m on Plavix, because it’s not their business. But when the next day I have a hand sized bruise where they pinched me, that’d be a huge thing.

        It goes bad on at least 3 levels. One, it’s wildly appropriative; two, nobody should be touching anyone else at work unless to remove them or warn them about imminent danger (or if they’re Deaf, and that’s the way they TELL you to get their attention;) and three, it could easily be construed as sexual harassment, if you’re going to pinch someone (please DO NOT,) and you end up pinching their rear end, no matter what genders/sexualities are involved, that could raise big issues.

        I reiterate that nobody should be touching ANYONE at work, but if you insist on touching, make damned sure you’re not touching parts of people that are completely private.

      2. Chinook*

        As someone who is half Irish, I think there is more nuance to the issue than OP’s employee finding the holiday offensive. After all, if she is Irish, this is an Irish national holiday as well as a religious one. What she is finding offensive is that it is being treated as a joke (which goes back to how the Irish have been treated in N. America) and she is being physically assaulted for not participating in something she finds degrading to her own culture.

        In my mind, it would be like a Canadian office celebrating American 4th of July by pinching everyone who isn’t wearing red/white/blue while making jokes about how the Americans lost the War of 1912.

        In other words, the pinching was the last straw for the employee. The first one was speaking up about how offensive this was and told that she wasn’t being a team player and can’t take a joke.

        1. Anna*

          Other people who are Irish on here have said it isn’t religious and not celebrated as such in Ireland.

          1. Chinook*

            Cool. So their family celebrates differently from mine? How do you decide which group has the more legitimate concern?

            1. Anna*

              I didn’t. I just pointed out that it’s not universal, so anyone saying it is should make sure they know that for sure first.

          2. Ted Mosby*

            Of course it’s a religious holiday. It has saint in the name. The fact that not everyone celebrates it as such doesn’t mean it’s not one. No one said it was universally celebrated by all people that way. That’s kind of the point of religious holidays.

          3. Noobtastic*

            I think it’s religious to the Irish Catholics, and not religious to the Irish Protestants.

            Also, I think the real biggie deal-breaker thing here was that it was mandated from on high, and not in an opt-in sort of way, and she was not allowed to opt-out.

            Morale-boosting activities are great, but they should always be opt-in. Anything not actually job-related should be opt-in.

          4. S*

            I was once in Ireland for business on St. Patricks day, staying just outside Dublin at one of my company’s sites, working with my Irish co-workers. Not a single one of them had plans that remotely resembled St. Patrick’s day celebrations in the US. They were mostly young people, but some were definitely middle aged, and I definitely got the feeling that they viewed St. Patricks day like we view Presidents day – “we love the extra day off from work, but… eh, I guess Presidents are generally worth celebrating?” Most of them had plans like “well maybe I’ll pop into my local pub for a pint, we’ll see.” I did also walk by a small church that day, and saw people coming out from mass(?) wearing boutonnairs of shamrocks, so for those people it was obviously a religious day.

            To the OP – excessive celebrations of holidays at work like you describe are just kind of silly to begin with. And also, pinching or just generally touching your coworkers in general is just inappropriate.

          5. Specialk9*

            What I was told about why my Irish family in the US celebrated St Patrick’s Day but not the ones in Ireland: the Irish who immigrated to the US faced terrible persecution (“Irish need not apply” to any jobs but the worst and most dangerous, etc), and as a result they turned a minor holiday into a gigantic F-you and celebration of themselves. So it’s not really relevant that our kin who had a different national experience celebrate the day differently.

            It’s not actually about Irish natives at all. It’s about the Irish-American strength in the face of oppression, and our pride and our unity. (Which, ahem, being Irish means getting sh*t-faced.)

          1. Chinook*

            1812. We (or at least the British army protecting their colonies) left scorch marks in the White House and the then First Lady worked hard to protect a portrait of President Washington. It was a response to the Americans attacking first in hopes of convincing the Canadian colonies to throw off our British oppressors.

            We said no thank you.

            2. Noobtastic*

              History is weird.

              Isn’t that the war where we got the “Star Spangled Banner” song from?

              Personally, I think we should go for “America the Beautiful” as an anthem, instead. Most people can sing it, and most people are aware of all the verses, too. I’m saddened by the number of Americans who don’t even know that Star Spangled Banner has 1) a story behind it and 2) four verses, including a rather gory line about foul footsteps pollution and blood.

              I think an anthem that celebrates the good in our country, rather than celebrating battle, is a much better anthem.

        3. Foodie Foodnerd*

          Ignorant question (hoping to cure said ignorance…):

          Has pinching ever been part of the original or traditional celebrations in Ireland?

          Bonus igno-request: Whether in Ireland or the US, when and how did the pinching get added?

          Thanks to anyone who can offer some insight!

          1. fposte*

            One article cites the Irish Historical Museum in New Orleans as saying it dates back to the 1700s in the U.S., and it’s to remind people that leprechauns might pinch them. That’s not a rock-solid source but it seems reasonable.

          2. Cath in Canada*

            I’m English with recent Irish heritage, and lived in Glasgow (huge Irish population) with Irish flatmates for four years, and I’d never heard of such a thing before I moved to North America. It’s possible that it’s more common in Ireland itself, but it seems unlikely.

            1. FormerLibrarian*

              I lived in Ireland for 8 years and never heard of pinching until after I got back in ’84. Thankfully I’ve only ever heard about it and not been the victim of it. If someone pinched me they’d probably get decked.

            2. Foodie Foodnerd*

              Thanks for the insight! I’d love to visit there someday. (Too bad air travel has become such a misery-fest…)

          3. Jenna*

            I don’t have any idea how the pinching got added, because the last time anyone seriously threatened me with it was third grade. I actually thought that part was just a grade school holdover, like some of the other awful things that kids do to each other that we hopefully know better than to do by the time we are employed.

            1. Noobtastic*

              Yeah. Most adults don’t think that playing “Slug Bug” is a good idea, either.

              I think if you ever encounter pinching on St. Patrick’s Day in Ireland, it is probably a recent development, brought over by Americans. Like Trick or Treat.

                1. Anonygoose*

                  Is it like Punch-a-buggy when you punch anyone when you see a VW Bug? I haven’t done that/been a victim of that since I was about 11.

                2. Betsy*

                  You see a VW bug, shout “slug bug” followed by whatever color the VW bug is, and sock whoever’s nearest in the upper arm. Important behavior on childhood road trips. God help you if you drive past a Volkswagon dealership.

                3. Gadget Hackwrench*

                  I’m guessing Anonygoose is right. Sounds like Punch-Buggy. You would never play that with COWORKERS.

          4. MW*

            I literally had to reread the letter before I realised that the pinching was somehow connected to St. Patrick’s day. I live in Scotland and have never heavily celebrated St. Patrick’s day (never really celebrated St. Andrew’s day either), but I’ve never encountered pinching as a component of the holiday. Wearing green is only a bit of a thing, and I think that might largely be an American influence (definitely in my office, the American staff are the ones most invested in wearing green on the day)

          5. Rebecca Anne*

            As an Irish person of 30-mumble years. No. Pinching has not been part of the original celebrations in Ireland.

            Generally the celebrations range from:
            Mass in the morning (if you’re religious)
            Wearing shamrock or some sort of Irish badge on your lapel.
            Parades (even if just on the telly because Dublin is crazy on St. Paddy’s Day)
            Dressing in green or wearing funny hats (if you want to)
            A day off from lent (again, if you’re religious or even if you’re not it was a break day)
            A day off from work
            A couple of drinks out (if you’re into that sort of thing)
            Wondering how exactly St. Patrick managed to drive snakes out of Ireland

            With a side order of:
            Looking at American cocktail names and trying not to get mad because they don’t know any better (Irish Car-Bomb, for example)
            Trying to convince foreigners that it’s not St. Patty’s Day, it’s St. Paddy’s Day (if you must shorten it that is).

            We don’t do pinching. It’s not a thing.

        1. Foodie Foodnerd*

          You’re correct that they should have a policy about unwelcome contact, but this is actually too specific to have any teeth.

          Within a year you’ll be drafting a no-squeezing policy for your fifth new employee in that position — added to the no-kneading policy you drafted for the second or third one (they all kinda run together after awhile).

          No touching without express permission or to prevent death or serious injury.

          Yes, the oxygen thieves will still try to get around it, but it at least closes down some of the worst loopholes.

        2. Gordon*

          The rule exists. Pinching someone without their consent is at worst Assault, and at best, harassment. The first is illegal… and the second is usually part of any workplace ruleset.

      4. Lisa*

        I completely agree. Pinching isn’t acceptable behavior in a professional setting. I cannot even imagine thinking I would have to tell someone this. I cannot even imagine working somewhere that people would do this. Frankly, the person who wrote in should be less worried about what sort of reference she’s going to give this woman and start worrying about the lawsuit that could be on her hands. Pretty sure a good lawyer could make an excellent argument for hostile work environment here, even if neither of the pinches was on a sexually loaded part of the body.

    2. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Is this an American thing? I’ve never heard of pinching someone on St Patrick’s day. I’m Canadian and this would not be tolerated up here. Plus pinching somebody’s rear end is technically sexual harassment. The offenders should be disciplined for this stunt.

      To the Irish this is a religious holiday rather than an opportunity to party. Many of the Irish I’ve known over the years find the North American version of this day pretty offensive.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Yes—if someone isn’t wearing green, you can pinch them. But it’s a practice that usually dies out in elementary school (and nowadays, it’s forbidden in most schools) and seems to be an activity reserved for drunken college students. It’s certainly not acceptable or appropriate in the workplace.

            1. alter_ego*

              I can’t remember anyone ever actually doing it. Just saying “uh oh, you’re going to get pinched” to people not in green.

                1. Happy Lurker*

                  Haven’t been pinched since my Grandmother’s sister “the nun” – think Blues Brother full habit – got me at age 5. I was horrified at age 5…AGE 5!!!
                  So, inappropriate. Assistant deserves a full apology and her job back with a raise and those pinching buffoons need to be fired.

              2. Chinook*

                My two Chinese immigrant coworkers (whoa re friends) made a comment about how I wasn’t going to get pinched because I was wearing a green shamrock pendant. They then get an earful on what the holiday really is and why green beer is evil and why Guinness and even Keith’s are much better options. We had an enjoyable walk that lunch hour, atleast.

          2. JessaB*

            I totally didn’t remember this was a thing until I saw this letter. It was a nightmare in elementary school. I thought it’d been thoroughly stopped.

            1. Hellanon*

              It was, and contributed mightily to my loathing of all things ST Patrick’s Day-related.

              1. SlytherinHR*

                Ditto. I’m STILL mad at that one kid who pinched me in first grade because I wasn’t wearing enough green. Guess I’ll die mad about that one.

                1. Librarian - academic librarian, manager information technology*

                  Hunt them down. Make them pay. (Then make a movie out of it staring Liam Neesan.)

                  You: “I don’t know who you are, but I will find you, and I will PINCH you!”

                  Them: “Who the hell is this? WUT?”

                2. Noobtastic*

                  Wait. “enough green” I always thought the tiniest speck of green was enough.

                  Heck, spinach in your teeth should count. At least, it did in my third grade class. Probably why the lunch ladies put it on the menu.

                  And why did we have no lunch men, I’d like to know? You know, as long as we’re asking questions.

                  I have Irish genealogy, and some of it is Catholic, and I still don’t give a hoot about the holiday. Because I’m not an Irish Catholic. It’s just another day, to me. Although, if I were in an office that celebrated it, I’d wear some green, too, but then I wear green all the time, because I look really good in green, and it’s a large portion of my wardrobe. I’d probably wear green accidentally.

                  And I wouldn’t give a hoot if anyone else was celebrating it, or not.

        2. Bibliovore*

          “Yes—if someone isn’t wearing green, you can pinch them.” This is just nuts. I never heard of this and even if it is a “thing”, how is it ever appropriate in a work environment?

          1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            It’s not appropriate in a work environment. It’s not even appropriate in most schools, anymore.

            I don’t know how widespread it is as a practice. I went to (K-12) school in three different states, and it was common in all three.

          2. Any Moose*

            I have never heard of this either. I’ve lived in the northeast US my entire life and my maternal grandmother was Irish. If someone pinched me, there would be hell to pay!

            1. My Thoughts Exactly*

              I grew up in the northeast and both my paternal grandparents were Irish. I literally never heard of this either, until I went to college. And I never saw anyone who pinched or was pinched on St. Patrick’s Day. I found out from sust someone who mentioned this “tradition” in a conversation. A conversation where I was flabbergasted because, seriously, wtf?

              1. KHB*

                I grew up in Pennsylvania. I’d never heard of the pinching thing until midway through high school, when the new girl (who I think was from Florida) came in on St. Patrick’s Day and announced sadly, “I forgot to wear green, so go ahead and pinch me.” We all had no idea what she was talking about.

                Come to think of it, I think that’s the only time in my life that I encountered anyone who took the pinching thing seriously.

                1. North Dakota Jones*

                  Dittoing the not hearing of it in the Northeast. When I moved to Georgia in High School, people mentioned it, and I was flabbergasted. No one, including annoying sisters, had pinched me since I was six and learned how to aim a good kick. If I was pinched multiple times, including once on my rear, I probably would have punched some one.

                2. Kyrielle*

                  I grew up in the northwest (Oregon), and yeah, pinching if you don’t wear green was totally a thing here. Which…actually is why I hate the holiday. Loathe it. (The North American version of it, but.) I also try to make sure my kids wear green, just in case. Not to celebrate the holiday – to protect them, because this holiday is about protecting yourself by wearing obvious green, in my head, and probably always will be. :(

                  It apparently still is a thing sort of; my oldest knows that if you don’t wear green you’ll get pinched. (Actually pinching would get a kid in so much trouble – but apparently it’s still said/done enough outside of school to register on the kids.)

                3. Falling Diphthong*

                  This has come up several times, and should be cause for really rethinking the ‘tradition’–people wearing green to ward off physical harassment, with no sense of festiveness beyond “Oh right, mean people will seize the excuse to bruise me today if I don’t take this step.” Like if December 23rd everyone wore a secular holiday light necklace because you would be ‘humorously’ pinched and punched if you didn’t.

                4. another person*

                  In Southern California it definitely was a thing. I was slightly concerned one of my coworkers/friends here would pinch me if I didn’t wear green, so I make sure to wear green on St. Patrick’s day.

                5. Biff*

                  It was and still kinda is a serious thing in Washington, Idaho and California, at least in my experience in the last 5+ years.

                6. Kimberlee, Esq*

                  I grew up in Idaho, and it was definitely a thing into college for me. I think I was maybe a sophomore before I got my first pinchless St. Patrick’s Day :(

                7. Natalie*

                  If it’s common on the West Coast, including California where a lot of TV comes from, I wonder if that’s why so many of us from other regions have heard of it but never experienced it. I heard of it from the Simpsons, and their creator is from Oregon.

                8. Silver Cormorant*

                  Here in northern California, I remember people being pinched in 2nd or 3rd grade, but past that it’s just a joke. Occasionally people will say you’ll get pinched or you’re safe from being pinched depending on whether you’re wearing green, but nobody would actually do so.

                  I don’t think I can actually remember the last time someone commented on whether I was wearing green that day. Usually because I forget and apparently so does everyone else unless a festive t-shirt or pin reminds them. Maybe if my workplace or school was planning something that day, it’d be different.

              2. Anon for this*

                I grew up with four Irish born grandparents and two lived with us during my childhood. We attended the NYC parade annually as kids, did step dancing and listened to Irish music. I never heard of this until now. It is unreal that the question is about giving a reference to an employee who was touched near their butt at work. Never mind what you say about her — she has lots to say about your company.

              3. Amy the Rev*

                Yeah- all I remember growing up just outside Boston was that one time I mistakenly wore orange (didn’t know Irish history nor anything about sectarian violence) and just thought you were supposed to dress in the colors of the flag. Boyyy did I get an earful.

                1. Chinook*

                  “I mistakenly wore orange (didn’t know Irish history nor anything about sectarian violence) and just thought you were supposed to dress in the colors of the flag.”

                  As the (Catholic) granddaughter of an Orangemen (other Irish can gasp at that and appreciate the benefits of immigration), I learned very early on the significance of orange in Ireland but can honestly say that even my Protestant family proudly wore green on St. Patrick’s Day when they hosted us in for the family dinner in Killarney. I suspect they wore orange on that other holiday but wouldn’t dare admit it to the family member who married a Catholic. :)

                2. Blatantly Irish*

                  I deliberately wear orange, my 100% Northern Irish family is Protestant. I personally find celebrating a Catholic holiday, especially one so bastardized and as glib as green glitter hats and green food, pretty out of step with modern culture.

                3. Noobtastic*

                  I did gasp, both for Amy the Rev and for Chinook.

                  I don’t know all the Irish history, but I know enough to avoid orange on St. Patrick’s Day, especially around Irish Catholics.

                  Chinook, your family sounds awesome! Family before politics!

            2. Jesmlet*

              I grew up in the northeast and went to college in Boston and this is definitely seen as a common tradition. I was actually surprised I didn’t get pinched when I showed up to work on Friday with no green (I legitimately forgot). I’m not the type to get bent out of shape for something like this unless it’s a real pinch. Where I’m from, people just do it on your forearm and it’s pretty mild.

              1. LSP*

                Grew up in the northeast and the first time i ever heard of this was from a coworker from a southern state, and she gets very into it. I very firmly told her I am not okay with being pinched, and she knew enough not to follow through. This is a childish and obnoxious “tradition,” and when you add it to the ignorance surrounding St. Patrick in America, the whole thing is just gross.

                1. Jesmlet*

                  Not disagreeing, I’m just not the type to lead the charge on banning something like this because I don’t personally care either way. If someone pinching me at work because I didn’t wear green is the worst thing to happen to me all week, then I’m having a pretty damn good week.

              2. Robin Sparkles*

                I grew up in NYC and never heard of this. I would have slapped someone as a reflex. Any tradition that involves touching me is not going to go over well .

              4. BananaPants*

                I also grew up in New England, with a good number of friends of Irish heritage, and have never heard of this until now.

              5. Rachael*

                I grew up in New York/Connecticut and the rule that we had is that you get pinched if you don’t wear green EXCEPT if you were Irish. You basically got a pass if you were Irish. Only now do I know that I’m 25% Irish due to genealogy DNA….if only I knew it then….I got pinched so much…lol.

                It was all in fun, but I would NEVER think that it is appropriate at work unless I was friends with the person and knew that they were into it.

                1. Jesmlet*

                  Right, that’s the same as what we had (Fairfield County resident, Westchester County employee). This was super common where I’m from so I just figured everyone in this area does it. I do think work dynamics matter like you said because I’ve got one of those work environments where most people are your friends so it’d be passable here. Hugs are fairly common so that physical contact stuff isn’t a big deal and a pinch in an appropriate area wouldn’t be a problem.

                2. Somniloquist*

                  Ha ha, I grew up with getting pinched if you didn’t wear green, but it was only within the family and it was because we were Irish American. If someone wasn’t Irish American, they definitely wouldn’t get pinched because they had no allegiance.

                  Also I never would have pinched anyone outside of my family.

                3. Rachael*

                  Now that I look back and know that since my mom was, pretty much, 50% Irish I probably learned a lot of the traditions from her. (She has never talked about her family background)

                  She pinched us before we had a chance to get our green on in the morning on St Patrick’s Day so I bet that I learned the “you can’t pinch an Irish person” from school.

                4. Blatantly Irish*

                  Same (Washington state) , being actually Irish gave you a free pass, I was rarely pinched. 1. I’m super intimidating and pinching would have been a dangerous proposition, 2. I’d remind them of my heritage by calling attention to my blatantly Irish name.

          3. Falling Diphthong*

            If you must associate with adults who do this, it’s worth developing an uncontrollable flail response that whacks them in the nose. “Goodness, you startled me. Ow.”

            I have to note that in terms of geometry–if you’re aiming for someone’s arm, and they sit down, their rear end does not move into the arm’s location. In fact, the air where the rear of a person lowering themselves into a chair is about to be is not occupied by any body part, so that’s a load of bs.

            1. Blizzard*

              I could see it if someone were reaching behind them and had their hands on the arms of the chair, but then picked their hands up as they sat. If you were aiming for the forearm and it was removed, I could see how your new direct line could lead to a butt.

        3. LN*

          Yeah, exactly. This is something obnoxious children do (I hated it as a kid too and wouldn’t participate in it, because WHO WANTS TO BE PINCHED??) Totally unacceptable behavior for adults in a professional environment, I’d quit too. Not because the act of being pinched itself is some kind of huge deal in isolation, but because it says volumes about my co-workers, my management, and the office culture.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            Not sure I’d quit, but I’d most certainly be raising holy hell with HR and upper management.

              1. That Young Coworker No One Ever Notices*

                Right? Glad I wasn’t the only one thinking this. I hate my job enough that if I had a bad enough day, I would be tempted to quit on the spot too. In fact, I almost did a few weeks ago due to be badgered by one rude coworker so much that I got pushed into a major panic attack.

              2. INFJ*

                Yep. Quitting on the spot seemed like an extreme reaction to me; I’m betting this office is insensitive in other ways and this was the last straw.

                1. Seal*

                  I did that once years ago in response to a “last straw” incident (that fortunately didn’t not involve pinching!). This was after an extended period of escalating bullying and harassment by a gang of nasty colleagues. Something about that particular incident made something snap for me and I walked out. My boss, who was useless on a good day, had long dismissed my complaints about being bullied and was therefore stunned, STUNNED that anyone would quit a “good job” on the spot. Note to former boss – if it was a good job, I wouldn’t have quit.

                2. Noobtastic*

                  Well, we do already know that it was about more than the pinching.

                  She was bullied by her co-workers when she complained about the cultural appropriation, and told she had to participate, whether she liked it or not.

                  Maybe everything was hunky-dory before that. But if it was hunky dory, why would they suddenly turn around and completely dismiss her concerns, her pain at the appropriation, and tell her to just suck it up and go along? People rarely do a complete 180, and groups of people rarely do a complete 180 at the same time, so it may be possible that this was out of the blue, but the odds are against it.

              3. Lioness*

                Yea. I’ve had issues with people who celebrate cinco de mayo as just a way to drink and party make me feel uneasy about being Mexican in other times of the year. Given the fact that it the employee said she wasn’t going to participate and had also made complains about the way the company was celebrating prior to the actual celebration, this wasn’t “sudden” for me as reading those two lines makes me think there could have been other issues that have just been ignored.

                1. Aveline*

                  The way Californians celebrate Cinco de Mayo has a lot in common with the way Chicagoans celebrate St. Patrick’s day.

                2. Chaordic One*

                  As someone of Irish descent, Cinco de Mayo was a real wake-up call to me. It was like, “Hey, that’s what people think about the Irish!” I can’t believe that I was so oblivious to it for years.

                3. Noobtastic*

                  I live in Texas, with a lot of Hispanics, of various cultural backgrounds, but yes, mostly Mexican, in the community. The most I’ve ever done for Cinco de Mayo was put it on the departmental calendar.

                  I listed as many holidays as I could on that departmental calendar, mostly for fun, but also to alert the people in the department that some of their co-workers might be celebrating. So, we’d hear people say, “Happy (insert holiday here)!” But that was about it. Same thing with birthdays, really. “Happy birthday, Fergus! Now, about those TPS reports.”

                  Sometimes, someone would ask a person who really celebrated that holiday more about it, while they were hanging out in the break room, and we’d get some good discussions going. But that was pretty dependent on how obvious that person was in celebrating that particular holiday.

        5. Kathleen Adams*

          Yes, exactly – it’s an elementary school (or maybe middle school) thing. It is not now nor has it *ever* been a grownup thing, at least not in my experience.

          I do think the employee over-reacted if she otherwise liked the job and the people, because let’s face it, there are better ways to handle it. She will now, somewhat unfairly, forever be “That woman who quit because she was so weird about St. Patrick’s Day.” And when she applies for another job, what is she going to put as her reason for quitting?

          But that said, her fellow employees were way out of line, and her supervisor clearly didn’t have her back. I can definitely understand her deciding “I am just not going to put up with this.

          1. BananaPants*

            Her reason for quitting was that she was being openly assaulted by coworkers for not wearing green/participating in a celebration that she felt was cultural appropriation.

          3. tigerlily*

            Disagree that it’s not an adult thing. When I was growing up (also in the north east as so much of this thread) it wasn’t something kids said to each other. Mostly it was something adults said to kids, and sometimes among themselves but in kid like settings. Like, my parents were always threatening each other with pinches. Where I grew up, it wasn’t that any old person could pinch you, it was that not wearing green would cause a leprechaun to pinch you (because why not make this practice more offensive?). So you’d have parents, teachers, whoever making comments like “Oooh, someone’s not wearing green so watch out or you’re going to be pinched!” Occasionally someone actually would get pinched, but it was always like a sneak attack where you wouldn’t know who did it (again, because it was supposed to be from a leprechaun) but you wouldn’t do that to people other than family or very close friends. Certainly not with co-workers!

          4. Kathleen Adams*

            Really? So you think it will be a good idea when she goes on her next job interview to say, “I quit because two coworkers pinched me on St. Patrick’s Day”? Assuming it’s the kind of pinch that is sort-of customary on St. Patrick’s Day – that is, very mild, not painful and not involving any erogenous zones (I have no idea what “near her butt” means) – then I don’t think most people would consider that “assault.” Inappropriate, yes; silly and juvenile, yes; not something I want from my coworkers, definitely. Assault, no. I realize that this might make me an outlier here on AAM, but that’s how I see it, and I am pretty sure many of her potential employers will see it that way as well. I could be wrong, of course.

            1. Kbug*

              That’s funny, I’m pretty sure any reasonable employer will say “that’s horrible” and file it away as info on that company…

            2. Anna*

              I think it would be entirely reasonable if she felt like divulging that much to say she was being harassed and her complaints were not taken seriously. It makes absolutely no difference how mild the pinch was, you just put the word pinch in a sentence about something that happened to you at work. That’s enough.

              1. Kathleen Adams*

                That would work, particularly if her supervisor is brought to see that her complaints were not out-of-line at all and agrees with this way of describing the situation.

            4. SML*

              A more accurate description is that she was assaulted by 2 people at her last workplace because of what she was wearing. There is NOTHING acceptable about that.

            5. kittycritter*

              I think that calling this an “assault” is a bit of an overreaction.
              Yes, you have a right to not be physically touched at work. I have never worked at a place where I got pinched for not wearing green, but even if I did, I wouldn’t be all ablaze with outrage about it.
              I know I’ll get piled on for saying this, but this strikes me as a gross exaggeration to call this a physical assault – as if someone just close-fisted punched this woman in the face or something like that.

              1. Shane*

                As a guy who can’t stand unwanted physical contact, I’d be livid after the second pinch, regardless of where on my body it occurred and I would consider it battery after having made it clear that the first pinch was unacceptable. If my manager replied with something akin to, “Relax, Bro, it’s just a prank. We’re just celebrating the holiday…”, I’d walk out, too.

                It’s not something that would rise to the level I’d call the cops about or seek a legal remedy, but I’d put it down as a hostile work environment when I applied for unemployment benefits or my reason for leaving the job.

        6. Normally A Lurker*

          Brothers and sisters. The only time I ever actually got pinched was from my siblings. Other than that it was always the sing song “Uh-oh – someones gonna pinch you!”

        7. Bonky*

          I am in the UK, and I’ve just asked an Irish colleague whether he knew anything about this pinching thing. He says no, it’s completely new to him, and that it sounds awful – and that he actively avoids visiting any of our US offices on St Patrick’s Day, because the whole thing’s embarrassing. (He gets particularly angry about the way it’s used as a celebration of drinking, and says he feels stereotyped. He is OK with me repeating what he said here.)

          America, I love you, but I’m giving you a very funny look from across the pond at the moment.

          1. AKJ*

            This American of Irish descent completely agrees with your colleague. And I’m giving my own country the side-eye at the moment.
            (FWIW, I’d heard of the pinching thing but have never seen it done in real life before. I thought it was something that had died out long ago, or was just a joke.)

            1. Chinook*

              This 1st generation Irish Canadian also agrees with your coworker. I go off quite loudly on anyone who tries to denigrate the Irish with the horrible stereotypes.

            2. Liz2*

              I was living in Ireland during St. Patrick’s day the year they had the big Foot & Mouth scare and all the celebrations were cut down. I was in college but it seemed like the locals just enjoyed it as an extra day to go out with friends (Thur-Sun instead of the normal Thur-Sat) and have family dinners.

              That being said- the employee was made to feel diminished and physically assaulted, TWICE. So uncool.

            3. Markethill*

              This second-gen Irish Canadian is also super squicked out by North American St Patrick’s Day. I try to stay in.

            4. Specialk9*

              You can tell your Irish friend that it’s not about him, it’s about Irish-American pride and strength in the face of oppression. What non-Irish-Americans think about the celebration is … interesting? Sorta? Ish?

            1. Noobtastic*

              Yeah, in America, an awful lot of people drink just because “It’s Friday,” or “I’m going to a concert,” or “Whee.” Don’t get me started on the great debate about alcohol, every time someone writes into an advice columnist about planning a wedding. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen people in the comments (or the letters!) saying that they love cousin George, but if he doesn’t have an open bar, they’re not coming to his wedding. And heaven help the teetotalers who try to have a dry wedding! In America, according to these commenters, it’s just not done. The only way to have a successful dry wedding is to 1) invite only other teetotalers and 2) have someone guard the punch, so nobody spikes it. Oh, and 3) have it in the afternoon or even the morning, NOT at dinnertime. And get better relatives, because DANG!

              So for Americans to stereotype Irish as being big drinkers just strikes me as ludicrous, especially because we have the very same stereotype about ourselves. At least, when I lived in Europe, I heard enough about Americans. We’re all cowboys, who love cigarettes and whiskey, and don’t appreciate a fine wine.

              As an American, I’d like to apologize for the Irish stereotypes. Well, all the stereotypes, really. Stereotypes are silly. They rarely make sense, at all, and they serve no useful purpose. They just get in the way of real communication with people and getting to know them.

              1. Noobtastic*

                Note, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with drinking, or drinking holidays, as long as you don’t drink to excess and go driving and be all dangerous.

                Also, I don’t really believe that one country’s people drink more than any other country’s people (except in those countries where alcohol is largely prohibited, such as in the Middle East).

                Which makes the stereotype even more of a jerk move, actually.

                1. ABC123*

                  Er… Of course there are differences between the average amounts of alcohol used by people in different countries. Just google “alcohol consumption per capita” (if I post a link, it will be stuck in moderation).

                  The differences between individuals are of course even more markable, but still — cultural trends in (amounts and kinds of) drinking exist.

          3. Jemerson60060*

            It seems a lot of the US likes to use cultural/religious appropriation as an excuse to drink and party. It seems like the same thing as Cinco de Mayo, Mardi Gras and other “drinking holidays.”

            1. KarenD*

              That’s a very broad statement, seemingly calculated as a slur, and I’m not sure what you base it on. Certainly we are a nation of immigrants, and each wave has brought people who have their own traditions to celebrate, and invite others into their celebrations. But Mardi Gras, St. Patricks Day, Oktoberfest and Cinco de Mayo celebrations all have more than a century’s worth of celebrations in the United States behind them.

              Cinco de Mayo in particular is a Mexican-American celebration, again dating back more than a century in parts of California and Texas. I will grant that it, along with St. Patricks Day, gained broader exposure through beer-company marketing campaigns throughout communities without a substantial Latin or Irish population. But attributing a marketing campaign (in the case of Cinco de Mayo, a campaign largely conducted by companies that weren’t even American) to “A lot of the US” seems rather disingenuous.

              1. KarenD*

                That said, the pinching thing – and yeah, it was a thing here when I was a child – falls into the category of traditions that I believe and hope are dying out. It’s not permitted in most schools now — I know my nephew brought a note home a few weeks ago saying that pinching was going to be treated just the same on St. Patricks Day as on any other day, that is, subject to disciplinary referral – and I suspect it should be more or less gone in a few more generations.

              2. Somniloquist*

                In my experience (Irish American, grew up in the Southwest), Cinco de Mayo wasn’t celebrated as much, more like we were told the story and then told it’s not as important as 16 de Septiembre, which is the real independence day. I get annoyed certainly at people wearing sombreros or trying to dress like sexy mariachis while getting trashed. Kind of like Dia de los Muertos now as well. Like, where’s the pan de muerto and the marigolds? It’s not all face paint and tequila.

                And I agree about St. Paddy’s Day for the same reason. I like all the gaelic stuff and the green and the clover (and what it really means) but this year it was like weekend after weekend of people getting trashed in a bar while wearing green and it’s like all the best parts about Irish culture are totally stripped out.

            2. Lioness*

              Yea, I really dislike the US version of Cinco de Mayo, my parents celebrated it so much different back in Mexico and I don’t drink.

              If a workplace celebrated it with non-alcoholic drinks, but emphasized the “partying” or the “drinks” or some superficial, I’d be upset, but how upset I would be would definitely be affected if they “pushed” the US form on me. (In the case of the assistant, that would be the pinching). If I don’t want to participate, let me be, but don’t assault me(pinching hurts, and the person is being touched without ever giving permission).

              I also wonder if there were previous issues that this was a last straw. Those I’ve met who tend to celebrate Cinco de Mayo as another excuse to party, have also made previous comments that made me uncomfortable. (ex. I don’t view you like a Mexican, I see you as a white girl who speaks Spanish or “I wouldn’t care if the Mexican died (in a show that only had one Latinx person)). So I wonder if there were other issues that stemmed from her being the only one Irish person employed.

              I agree with Alice, if she was otherwise a good worker, base the reference on that. And take into consideration that not everyone appreciates having their culture be used as a way to party.

            3. AC6*

              I mean… a lot of Americans do act inappropriately, and even racist, on those holidays. But it’s also “tradition” to drink a lot on the 4th of July and Memorial Day, the latter of which is a whole other kind of inappropriate. So there are different levels of offense going on, but I personally think it’s a bit more nuanced than “shit on other cultural traditions by drinking too much.”

              2. Isabel C.*

                I was gonna say: pretty much every holiday here is a drinking holiday. (S4 Buffy Doomed Fratboy: “Is there any holiday that’s *not* about getting laid?” DF2: “Arbor Day.”) It’d be more respectful to stick to our own culture with that, though.

          4. amapolita*

            I’d gently suggest not painting all Americans with such a broad brush, especially when posting about how your Irish colleague feels stereotyped.

          5. Looby*

            I’m from Ireland and never heard of the pinching until I moved to North America at the age of 25, when I was pinched by my dental hygenist on St patricks day, while in the dental chair!
            We don’t wear green, drink green beer or wear Guinness hats on St Patrick’s day in Ireland.
            I really don’t enjoy the day here in NA because I get lots of comments that imply I will not be able to control my drinking and will need time off after because I am Irish and therefore have a drinking problem.
            I wouldn’t go so far as to say I find it offensive but it is extremely annoying.

            1. Noobtastic*

              I literally gaped at that. The dental hygienist, that is.

              Sadly, the comments about how you’ll be hungover did not make me gape. Just sad.

              I’d understand the stereotype (and the negative comments about it) more, if we were a country of teetotalers, but we’re not. And Prohibition just made things worse. I don’t get it, at all.

              1. Specialk9*

                Ireland: 12 liters of pure alcohol per adult per year (#21 ranked drinking country, out of ~200)
                USA: 9 liters (#48 ranked)

                So on average, Irish people drink a THIRD again as much as Americans. That’s a lot.

                Sorry that Irish people don’t like being recognized as drinking a lot. But hey, lots of former Soviet countries ahead of you!

          6. CoveredInBees*

            See also: Cinco de Mayo “celebrations” involving a lot of tequila, questionable Tex-Mex food, horrid stereotypes, and generally no actual people of any sort of Mexican background. Celebrants will often tell (or drunkenly slur) that they’re celebrating Mexican independence, which is September 16th and had been a thing for over 50 years prior to the events commemorated on May 5th.

          7. Been There, Done That*

            It’s not all of America. I lived most of my life in the Midwest and never heard of this pinching until I moved to southern California well into adulthood. When I happened to be in northern California on St. Patrick’s Day, you wouldn’t believe all the intoxicated Irish tourists (along with the intoxicated everybody else) I encountered while trying to get back to where I was staying.

          8. Foodie Foodnerd*

            Bonky: UK, we love you for many things (including raising the bar on quality fish and chips :^D ), but if all you’re giving us is a funny look, you’re even more gracious and kind-hearted than your reputation shows.

            We’re the ones who should be embarrassed, not your colleague!

            Although I respectfully request a pass for Cinco de Mayo, as it’s my birthday. :^D

        8. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

          I don’t think my kids even realized pinching if you don’t wear green was a thing. They are middle school age, so I thought the whole pinching “tradition” had gone away.

        9. Kat*

          Although just to add, the pinching is most definitely a North American thing. So for an Irish person, getting pinched on a religious holiday isn’t part of the tradition, it’s yet another foolish display that seems to make a mockery of the meaning behind St Paddy’s Day. Like you said, definitely not appropriate in the workplace and I’m amazed that the adults in OP’s workplace thought to do it twice!

        10. seejay*

          yeah people in my office were dressing in green. I refused as my heritage is Irish, but no one was pinching as a result. If someone *had* pinched me, they might’ve gotten a sock in the arm from me for it. :|

        11. Eugenie*

          This was definitely a thing when I was growing up (mid-80s/early 90s) in southern California. I have a very clear memory from PRESCHOOL (so, 4 year old me was appropriately traumatized for this to stick) of our teacher having all the kids sit in a circle on the floor and go one by one to see if we were wearing any green, if we weren’t that gave the teacher and other kids permission to tickle the offender. I HATED tickling and was terrified as the teacher got closer and closer to me (my mom hadn’t thought to purposely put me in green that day). I was in some kind of multi-colored sweater and the teacher found some green in there somewhere so I was spared. The absolute fear of that process stuck with me to today! People need to let this tradition die, especially with little kids!

          1. LaterKate*

            Wtf? I can’t believe the teacher not only allowed this, but actively participated in it. When I was a kid, pinching was a thing, but it wasn’t done in front of teachers because the pincher would get in trouble.

          2. Connie-Lynne*

            When I was in Kindergarten, my mom had forgotten this tradition. I wore my favorite dress, not green, to school that day and refused to ever wear it again.

            1. misplacedmidwesterner*

              When I was in Kindergarten, my parents forgot to put me in green. My kindergarten teacher greeted us at the classroom door with a stack of green shamrocks from the die cut machine and safety pinned one on every student so there would be no excuses for pinching no matter what you were wearing. That was the last time I believe I ever heard someone seriously mention pinching as a possibility. I read this letter out loud to my husband and we were both shocked.

                1. Noobtastic*

                  Me, too. And I hate Eugenie’s teacher. Good grief! Bad enough to allow it, but to actually encourage it? And participate herself?

                  It’s sad that the teacher had to go to those lengths to protect her students from assault by others, but I’m so glad she did!

              2. Lady H*

                Oh, this is sweet! It sounds like I’m far from the only one who absolutely hates St. Patrick’s Day because of memories of being pinched. I’m in my 30’s and was actually worried about whether people would pinch me if I wasn’t wearing easily identifiable green to the point where I just ended up staying in for the day and getting housework done after work.

                It wasn’t until just this moment that I realized that I have residual trauma from getting pinched as a child by classmates (I’m from the midwest, it was very much a thing even all through high school). As an abuse survivor I’m sure I’m more sensitive than most but I don’t know what my reaction would be if I was getting pinched at work, especially by people who had no interest in my real heritage.

        13. Mochafrap512*

          Yup. I didn’t wear green (uniform but still didn’t accent anything) and I didn’t get pinched. Childish behavior.

        14. Sketchee*

          I can’t say I recall this other than as a faint memory from elementary school. As an adult in American who doesn’t spend much time around kids or people with them. Many people in my workplace didn’t wear green or participate in voluntary programs. In our office, they made it a potluck where anyone could bring in a theme item from their own culture.

      2. EE*

        >To the Irish this is a religious holiday

        I am a Dubliner and have never once encountered somebody speaking of it as a religious holiday. It is our national day. Just as Americans have the Fourth of July, we have St Patrick’s Day. Sure, it’s named after a saint, but that’s not the focus.

        1. Snowflake*

          I grew up going to catholic school in the US (our parish was named after Saint Patrick) and whenever Saint Patrick’s Day landed on a Friday we got an exemption for Lent (you could eat meat/whatever you had given up for Lent). It always felt misappropriated as a religious holiday and probably misrepresented the actual number of people with Irish heritage in our parish (probably less than 50%).

        2. saphorr*

          I’ve never met an Irish person who would describe St. Patrick’s Day as a religious day, but it is totally reasonable for a genuinely Irish person to decline to participate in, and even detest, the North American version with its dollar-store leprechaun costumes and watered-down Bud Light with green-coloured food colouring. Also, no one today could reasonably claim that pinching anyone anywhere at work would be universally taken as an innocent tease. The LW is way, way out of line and the employee is owed at least an apology.

        3. Lady Blerd*

          It is similar to St Jean Baptiste day (24 June) for French Canadians. In fact, in Qc, it is a Holiday.

          1. seejay*

            Yeah I remember we’d have a special mass at church (in Ontario though) on St Patrick’s day. That’s about the extent of the celebration we’d have though. Americans, on the other hand, are weird. There were woops and hollars outside my window way past 3am on Friday night and I was wishing I had something to throw at them because I was trying to sleep.

        4. Mel*

          Just like how St Andrews Day is Scotland’s national day (30 November). I think the confusion about religion comes from that these come from the saint days in religious calendars.

        5. IrishEm*

          I grew up going to Mass as Gaeilge on Paddy’s Day in Dublin. It is the Saint’s Day as well as the national holiday. I would call St. Patrick’s Day a religious day alright, even though in the last decade or so it has become increasingly secular and Americanised.

          The pinching business completely baffles me, though. I just don’t understand it, or where it came from. I honestly only saw it on The Simpsons and I thought it was a joke. I don’t blame the employee in the slightest, and I would have done exactly the same in her shoes.

        6. Breda*

          Also, historically, St. Patrick’s Day was a big thing in the US before it was a big thing in Ireland. It was immigrants in a country that didn’t want them banding together to celebrate their heritage: the first ever St. Patrick’s Day parade was in New York City, and the US-traditional corned beef was picked up from Jewish neighbors rather than brought over from the old country. (I wrote my senior capstone in college on the music of the Irish diaspora; I’ve done my research on this.)

          I think a lot of the ways that the US celebrates St. Patrick’s Day are ridiculous & awful : the pinching thing, for example, as no one should be forced to celebrate a holiday not their own; as well as how it’s used as an excuse to get dangerously drunk. (I just want to listen to some trad music and have a Guinness, and that is nearly impossible in NYC.) But the US has not really *stolen* the holiday. It’s an Irish-American tradition just as much as it’s an Irish one – and after 200 years of diverging traditions, of course they’re celebrated differently!

          1. Kate*

            Admin, I hope this isn’t derailing, I re-read the commenting rules and the recent discussion, so I think it is okay, please delete if I am wrong.

            Thank you for saying this! As was mentioned last time, and NOT that this is happening here, I get a little sick of hearing that Americans celebrate this holiday “wrong”.

            Unfortunately it seems that “Country of Origin-American” is too often not seen as a real culture in and of itself, and anything that is different than “Country of Origin” culture or “American” culture is seen as wrong or a mistake, not a new tradition for your culture, the “Country of Origin-American” culture.

            I have heard about this with Mexican-Americans and their cuisine not being “authentic Mexican”, as well as others.

            1. Kate*

              ETA not that pinching is okay, I have always hated that part of the holiday and find the emphasis on drinking a little frustrating, but a lot of American holidays tend to be about drinking and/or shopping, not just this one. And not that there’s anything wrong with that necessarily.

            2. Emi.*

              I agree! It’s like when the Chinese teachers dismissed cooking by my Chinese-American family as “not authentic.”

        7. Chinook*

          In Canada and the US, St. Patrick’s Day is one of the few days where the Catholic Church gives dispensation to eat meat on Friday or fast during Lent (because leave it to the Irish to have a patron saint who’s feast day always falls during a time of abstinence and preparation – we either like suffering or creating loopholes). It is diocese by diocese and under certain circumstances, but it is definitely treated as a Feast Day by Irish Catholics (and I think Orthodox Christians who also have him as a saint).

          1. bearing*

            Also note it’s not at all unusual for a Catholic parish to have a party/picnic/special fellowship dinner, often including a worship service, on the feast day of the saint that the parish is named after. It doesn’t matter if you’re Irish or not — if you go to St. Patrick’s Catholic Church, 3/17 can be a religious holiday for you.

            1. Anna*

              I think the difference is: Observed As vs Originated As. My understanding from what ‘ve seen is that it may be observed as a religious holiday in some areas, but it did not originate as a religious holiday.

              Not all feast days were created equal.

              1. Zoe*

                That’s actually backwards, it originated as a religious day (it’s a holy day of obligation and a solemnity in the Irish Catholic Church) and for many people still is, even as the most visible celebrations are secular.

        8. saf*

          The Irish folks I know who see it as a religious holiday are from the Gaeltacht – specifically, Connermarra and the Aran Islands.

      3. Kas*

        The pinching happened to me in elementary and I live in Canada. So it has been tolerated up here.

        1. Talvi*

          I remember this from when I was in elementary school, too (also in Canada). But that’s the thing – it’s something you might expect from schoolchildren, not grown adults.

          1. Bringing IT*

            Exactly, emphasis on elementary school. This is nuts. The OP is lucky if she doesn’t have a lawsuit on her hands.

          2. Beckie*

            And, in fact, my son’s elementary school had a reminder on the morning of March 17 that pinching was not allowed under school rules.

      4. Djuna*

        I think it is. I’m Irish, I live in Ireland, and pinching/punching for not wearing green has *never* been a thing here. When I first heard of it, I thought it had to be a joke.

        I feel for the assistant. Depending on how long she has been in the U.S. she may not have known at all that this is a “traditional” Paddy’s day thing to do…or a thing at all. So, in her head, she comes to work, and people start pinching her….

        Suddenly, (quite apart from everything else), it is so much easier to understand her reaction.

        1. Savannah*

          Just to clarify- I know the LW said she was Irish but in all likelihood she is 3-4 generation American with Irish heritage.

          1. saphorr*

            Why do you think that? Everything about her reaction is entirely consistent with her being genuinely Irish-from-Ireland Irish, and there’s no fact included that suggests she’s American.

            It’s true that 90% of people who meet in North America who casually sling around “I’m Irish” have an Irish great-grandfather or a just a name that starts with O’, but that doesn’t mean it’s true of everyone. As Bono or Colin Farrell could tell you, the Irish still occasionally make it across the Atlantic from time to time these days…

            1. AKJ*

              Yeah, but I might have a similar reaction (I don’t really like the way St. Patrick’s Day is celebrated in the US, so I don’t really celebrate, and if anyone pinched me I’d raise holy heck) and I’m only 1/2 Irish by descent three or four generations back. My family on my fathers side has always taken our heritage seriously and we’ve kept in touch with relatives in Ireland over the years.
              I don’t think it necessarily makes that much of a difference in this situation whether the person is a recent Irish arrival or of Irish descent, the whole thing is still incredibly offensive.
              (There are situations where it would make a difference, I just don’t think this is one of them)

              1. Victoria*

                Also Irish by decent … great great grandma came here from Ireland. Saying that my family thinks the way we celebrate St Patrick’s Day is stupid. Growing up my dad had to be at work by 6 am and we lived in a college town. He would see the college students lined up waiting at the bars BEFORE 6 am so he started calling it St Parties Day.

              2. Emi.*

                Well, it sounds to me like she’s objecting to green food as a party theme as well as to the pressure and pinching. If her issue is that the Americans throwing this party aren’t Irish-American, I don’t think it makes much difference, but if she’s upset because she doesn’t like a distinctively Irish-American tradition at all, she needs to sit down.

                1. Gadfly*

                  I think she is fine to have an objection to the Americanization of it when that mostly consists of a bunch of offensive stereotypes or ignorant misuse of culturely symbolic thing of the Irish part. Some toned down more than they used to be, but still rooted there.

            2. Just Another Techie*

              My ex-boyfriend was Irish by descent, about four generations back. But his family was super into ancestry and heritage (and part of why we broke up was that his mother couldn’t bear the thought of her baby boy marrying out. He had to find a good Irish girl.)

              His ancestors, though, were strict CoE people, and his whole family would wear orange on St Patrick’s day because they all had a chip on their shoulder about it.

              1. go orange!*

                CoE?
                if I bother with colors, I wear green for my boyfriend (highly Irish catholic tradition in the family) AND orange since I’m a Protestant.
                And, I recently learned that St. Paddy’s color is actually blue…
                As for pinching? Yeah, no. I’m a advanced black belt & you’d get whacked like a snake simply as a muscle memory response.

                3. go orange!*

                  thanks Talvi! My brain is busy doing numbers today & didn’t translate that properly!

                4. FormerLibrarian*

                  Yes, it is Church of England, although an Anglican in Ireland would be attending Church of Ireland services!

                  If you look up photos of the Saint Patrick’s Catherdral choir (also CoI) you’ll see that the St. Patrick’s blue is the color they use for their choir robes. Christ Church (where I sang in the choir during my last three years in Dublin) had red robes as we were a royal foundation.

          2. Lance*

            Certainly, it’s a possibility… but I’m not sure how this is relevant in the first place.

            1. Misquoted*

              I don’t think it’s relevant. I am an American with zero Irish heritage, and I strongly dislike St. Patrick’s Day and the way it’s celebrated here. I almost never wear green on March 17.

          3. AnonyMouish*

            Can you explain why you would think this? I know many young Irish immigrants in all parts of Canada and the Northeast United States, it’s not like they’re required to stay in Ireland…

            Would your inference that she was a 3-4th generation American have something to do with her reaction?

            1. BF50*

              Her reaction sure sounds more like she’s Irish from Ireland. And the comment that she is the only Irish person working there, also gives that impression, since a huge majority of Americans (and Canadians) have Irish ancestry.

              There are parts of the country with very few Irish immigrants, so I’m guessing Savannah is from one of those parts.

              By the way, my Irish-from-Ireland husband finds much of American St. Patrick’s day offensive. If you pinched him we would flip. He’s been her 15 years and this is the first year he has actually worn green and that is only because the whole family bought matching IFRU shirts on our last trip home. Also, he doesn’t consider it a religious holiday.

              1. Savannah*

                I’m actually from the UK- and living in Boston so lots of people who say they are Irish, but are actually American and have Irish or English heritage. I think when Irish or English people hear people in America say that they are Irish, we think like from Ireland- but 9/10 thats not what people here mean. You can even tell in the comments, everyone who is European seems to think she is from Ireland and most of the American comments seem to think she’s Irish. I honestly don’t think it matters much for this work situation, but I didn’t want someone assuming something I’ve been surprisingly wrong about so many times.

                1. Jessie the First (or second)*

                  But there is no reason to assume she is not actually Irish, as in from Ireland, either. It seems inappropriate to me to jump in and state as fact something that is simply a guess on your part. And it does not matter anyway – she doesn’t need to produce her birth certificate and prove citizenship to dislike a holiday that traffics in stereotypes, and she doesn’t need a birth certificate and proof of citizenship to object to being pinched.

            2. Courageous cat*

              Not the original commenter but it was my thought too. I’ve known a lot of people who like to tout their Irish/Scottish/Norwegian/whatever far-back heritage as though they were literally from that country and it usually comes off as an attempt to seem more “cultured” and less “plain white American”. It doesn’t change whether her reaction was valid (I think it was) but if she’s not from Ireland and neither are her parents then.. whether or not she’s Irish doesn’t seem super relevant to her reaction.

              Of course she could very well be straight up Irish, who knows, but it’s a thought I had. Might also be because I have never met an Irish immigrant in my entire life (probably due to my location?)

              1. Specialk9*

                Mm, I don’t think it’s about having pretensions or trying to seem *cultured* but about being proud of our roots. (Admittedly in a half-assed way.) And about finding ways to feel kinship with strangers.

      6. Felicia*

        I’m Canadian too and pinching happens on St Patrick’s day here too – but only in early elementary school and would never be tolerated in the workplace. People seem to realize it’s a bad thing to do by themselves around grade 6 but teachers do try to put a stop to it earlier

        1. CanCan*

          I’m Canadian, lived here for over 20 years, and this is the first time I’m hearing of pinching. Probably because I didn’t go to elementary school here.

        2. Mephyle*

          I grew up in Southern Ontario (Canada), did all my schooling there, and this letter today is literally the first time I’ve ever heard of pinching on St. Patrick’s day.

          1. saphorr*

            Ditto. I have a vague memory from elementary school of being ridiculed for not wearing something green on St. Patrick’s Day, but I was never pinched (for that anyway) and never heard of pinching being a thing.

            It is slightly funny that at the same time we were all pressured to wear green, we were learning in class about how the Fenians were huge jerks who wanted to cause the downfall of Canada right after Confederation. The Fenians were basically just hardcore Irish nationalists, the same people who were popularizing wearing green in the first place.

      7. MMDD*

        I was about to ask the same thing. I live in a part of Canada that was settled by Irish immigrants and never in my life have a heard of pinching someone for St Patrick’s day.

        1. Humble Schoolmarm*

          I’ve never heard of it in my part of Canada where Scottish culture is most predominant. Schools are almost always on March Break then, which may have something to do with it.

      8. LQ*

        I always assumed the pinching was a bar/drinking/”flirting” thing but I’ve never had anyone do it and I don’t own a lot of green so I didn’t even accidentally wear green on the day. I’m in the midwest and did hear of it but I’m not sure where, it may well have been on the Simpsons as someone mentioned.

        1. Amber T*

          Yeah, I’m trying really hard to remember when I heard about the pinching aspect, and I honestly can’t remember. I think it’s one of those things that I’ve always “known” but never experienced (as someone mentioned above, I remember hearing the “oooh you’re not wearing green, you’re gonna get pinched!” fairly young), but I can’t honestly remember experiencing it until college, where drunken “flirting” is “acceptable.”

          Some people wore green on Friday, someone brought in green bagels, but that was the extent of the “celebration” in our office, and really that’s how it should be.

      9. B*

        I was born here and I have never heard of the pinching thing until now. If I were the employee I would have also quit on the spot and possibly hire a lawyer.

      10. I'm Not Phyllis*

        I’m glad I’m not the only Canadian who has never heard of this! I didn’t wear green (I forget … every year) and would not have been happy. This is the only year I’ve given thought to the cultural appropriation aspect of St. Patrick’s Day, probably because cultural appropriate has been a larger discussion in recent history, but I can completely understand her taking offense.

      11. Sadsack*

        I am of Irish heritage and I am American. I have never heard of the pinching thing until very recently. I think most of what is done to celebrate this holiday has very little to with any actual Irish tradition.

      12. Sorry*

        Nah its Canadian too, except the Canadian way is to just mention the pinching and not actually do it eh.

      13. Liane*

        I’ve heard of this most of my life (lived in Florida & Arkansas), but *always* as a joke said to friends or relatives who would take it as a joke: “You forgot to wear green, today–I should pinch you” “Oooh boy, you are gonna get pinched all day long” And everyone kept their hands to themselves–where they belonged!

      15. Lisa*

        FWIW — I was born and raised in the U.S. and grew up in a city with a strong Irish element (Chicago — so lots of different ethnicities well-represented), and I actually had NOT heard of the whole pinching thing.

    3. Mike C.*

      Even if there wasn’t the issue of cultural appropriation, the fact that she wasn’t participating should have been a huge signal that she wasn’t participating so don’t pinch her.

      1. sstabeler*

        I’m not sure it counts as cultural appropriation, but regardless, her reaction in refusing to participate was appropriate- the pinching was out of line. (as a rule of thumb, it’s fine between a group of friends that AGREE to follow the custom- otherwise, knock it off.)

        1. Fiennes*

          I’m honestly curious as to whether the assistant genuinely called it “cultural appropriation,” or whether that’s how her coworkers characterized her saying, “this stuff isn’t authentic, and it’s also irritating.” Frankly, the office culture sounds more than a little sophomoric–green food? Rampant pinching? Someone, presumably with a straight face, claiming he didn’t mean to pinch her butt, just caught her sitting down? (Think about that. Totally implausible.) I wouldn’t be surprised if her objections had been inflated in their retelling to OP in an effort to make her sound unreasonable. But I’d hate that climate too — and wouldn’t be surprised if this was less an isolated incident, more a last-straw situation.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            The “I missed” thing makes sense if you assume that the assistant enters her chair by crawling under the conference table and then slithering upward in a backbend until she’s seated in her chair.

            So not really.

            1. A.*

              You are right, that is the only way “missing” makes sense! Almost spit out my coffee laughing at that picture.

              And I agree with previous poster, my initial take was this incident was probably the last straw for the assistant rather than the sole reason for quitting the way she did. I know very few people who have walked out on jobs but the ones I do, there was a lot of build up to get to that point.

          2. JessaB*

            Yeh, wait a minute here, if you’re going to pinch at a certain level, and the person sits down in the middle of it, you’re going to pinch HIGHER on their body, not lower. I mean I just self demonstrated in a chair but logic dictates if someone is sitting down their bottom goes lower than your grip not higher. They should have ended up pinched at the waist or something. I could see someone in the process sitting and someone reaching and accidentally getting near the bosom because the body was lowering itself. But this doesn’t logically follow I think?

          3. Kyrielle*

            Yeah, if he “missed” and got her butt as it was descending, then he was aiming for her leg or thigh. What the? Or if he got “near” her butt above, then he was aiming for her actual butt.

            Pinching isn’t okay. Pinching there is even less okay.

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I’ve heard a lot of Irish people say that. Same way that a lot of Mexicans feel about the way that Cinco de Mayo is celebrated in the US. It’s not really for anyone who isn’t a member of that group to say if it is or isn’t cultural appropriation.

          But the larger point is that any kind of unwanted physical contact in the workplace is completely inappropriate.

        3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          It is cultural appropriation, actually — a really great example of it. People who have fundamentally no connection to Ireland suddenly declare “I’m Irish!!!!” as a way to make excuses for behavior that boils down to negative stereotypes of Irish people (getting roaringly drunk and participating in hooliganism) under the cover of “celebrating.”

          1. Machiamellie*

            This is why I always decline to participate – not a drop of Irish blood in my body and I don’t drink, so I never felt the desire to pretend to be Irish for a day. I don’t wear green on the day and people go “but everyone’s Irish on St Patrick’s Day!” No, no they’re not.

          2. Pommette*

            On the surface, it’s an absurd holiday that only exists to give people an excuse to drink to excess while behaving obnoxiously. And it definitely plays on some gross stereotypes.

            But North-American St-Patrick’s day celebrations weren’t invented by non-Irish people to mock Irish people or to appropriate Irish culture. Many of the holiday’s traditions developed from celebrations organized by people from Irish diaspora communities. Over time, what it meant to identify as Irish in America changed pretty dramatically; the holiday changed in parallel to that. It became a “mainstream” holiday in part because Irish identity stopped being marked out or stigmatized.

            So I don’t think that it counts as appropriation, exactly. It’s something else, and something way more interesting. (Not that that is an excuse for green food or pinching in the workplace, or an appropriate pretext for bad behaviour!)

            1. fposte*

              I think this is an excellent summary. I applaud the impulse to be sensitive to other cultures, but diaspora cultures count as cultures too.

              I was hoping to find a nice gossipy history of Title VII online to see if the “national origin” clause had any particular ethnic group pols behind it. I didn’t find anything about that, but apparently some accounts suggest the Congressman who included the word “sex” did so as a poison pill to kill the bill. Ha on him.

            2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              Well, no. Being a diasporic holiday and being appropriated by individuals who are not part of that diaspora are perfectly compatible situations. I doubt you’re going to find many actual Irish-Americans wearing “kiss me I’m Irish” t-shirts and shamrock glasses drinking dyed beer.

              1. fposte*

                I think you’ll find a ton of them, actually; you’ll also find a fair amount of them selling those t-shirts and beer. It’s not as simple as “real descendants do it nicely.”

                1. Natalie*

                  How do you even decide who’s a “real descendant”? Americans of Irish descent don’t all live in Little Dublin and marry each other, and haven’t for generations and generations. I’d wager plenty of Americans have Irish ancestry they don’t know about, and plenty of Americans of Irish descent have fewer Irish ancestors than they believe.

                2. aebhel*

                  True. I think the whole thing is kind of off-putting, but I know a LOT of people of Irish descent (I’m in NY; we make up like 60% of the city I live in) who celebrate it in all the obnoxious ways.

                3. Chinook*

                  And then you get the Irish immigrants like my grandparents who wanted to fully integrate into Canada and made a point of staying away from Irish Canadian clubs. We, their grandchildren, knew very well where my dad and aunt were born and where half our blood and family is from, but the family’s goal was to become a part of our new home and nation.

                  (It worked, both children of an Orangeman married and raised Catholics and even took them back to visit family in places like Belfast.)

                4. OlympiasEpiriot*

                  @ aebhel … We are nested so far I can’t reply directly…

                  No, the Irish in NY are *not* 60% of the city. They aren’t even 60% of the white folks. Maybe they are 60% of Woodlawn. Or some part of Breezy Point, or some precinct houses, but those of Irish ancestry in NYC are maaaaybe 6% of the population of the city. Tops. Hispanic & Latinx ancestry and African-Americans together make up more than 50% of the population here.

                  (Which reminds me Yet Again to be astounded at the incredible whiteness of my kid’s school district. My neighborhood has changed so much since I first moved in some thirty+ years ago. )

                5. aebhel*

                  @OlympiasEpiriot

                  I was referring to the state of New York, actually. I don’t live in NYC. The city where I do live is very Irish. Honestly, this is one of my ongoing frustrations, here: NY is an entire state beyond the city, which is something that nobody who isn’t from upstate New York seems to grasp.

                6. OlympiasEpiriot*

                  @ aebhel

                  I get your frustrations — this confusion also happens the other way, believe it or not, especially with political seats and issues — and I definitely could have read a little closer; but, writing “(I’m in NY; we make up like 60% of the city…” resulted in someone reading late a night on a phone with its squeezing of comments likely to misread this as “NY …. city”

                  Apologies.

                  And, I’m not wanting to out you, but I am super curious about which city your are in now b/c I travel around the state a lot and can’t think of which one you’d mean. Even Babylon is only about 30% Irish.

                1. fposte*

                  Heh, it was absolutely Chicago I was thinking of too. I believe Notre Dame has a pretty legendary St. Patrick’s Day as well.

              3. Anna*

                The problem is that’s not entirely true. The celebration started in large cities with very large Irish immigrant populations. None of these practices were created out of whole cloth; they’ve grown out of how it was celebrated in those large cities.

                I don’t disagree that it’s been appropriated, but I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that “kiss me I’m Irish” didn’t start with someone who was Irish and thought of a clever way to make a buck.

              4. BananaPants*

                You’d be wrong on that, at least based on what I see from friends of Irish heritage who live in southern New England.

            3. Chinook*

              “But North-American St-Patrick’s day celebrations weren’t invented by non-Irish people to mock Irish people or to appropriate Irish culture.”

              I agree with this portion not being cultural appropriation but, instead, cultural evolution. But, once non-Irish (descendants) start taking at as an excuse to say “today everybody’s Irish” and then “kiss me an Irish” as a follow up, or when they think it is great day to drink because, you know, the Irish are famous drinkers *wink, wink, nudge, nudge,* then you are absolutely going into both a true definition of appropriation and perpetrating cultural stereotypes.

              As for green food dye in food and beer, that is just a crime against nature and good taste.

                1. Noobtastic*

                  I wonder if Dr. Seuss got his inspiration for Green Eggs and Ham from a St. Patrick’s Day party?

                  My sister made it, once, for the family. It tasted almost normal. Almost.

          3. I'm Not Phyllis*

            Yes this so much. And the fact that some people of Irish decent think it’s eye roll-worthy, rather than insulting, doesn’t make it ok.

      2. GeoffreyB*

        Agreed, but also, there really shouldn’t be a need for a signal. “Don’t pinch her” should be the default behaviour.

      3. DeskBird*

        Not to defend ANYONE – but that is the point of the pinching. It’s to torment people who aren’t participating. You only pinch people who don’t wear green – so it is basically used to harass anyone who isn’t participating. I’m only pointing this out because a lot of people here haven’t heard of the pinching thing before.

    4. many bells down*

      Seriously, this #1. There’s no reason at all someone should be getting pinched at work. Unless there’s some sort of emergency you should all be keeping your hands to yourselves.

      I was wearing a navy blue company logo shirt on St. Patrick’s. If anyone had tried to pinch me I would have been furious. If you think it’s a fun tradition, great, but don’t force physical contact on other people.

      1. MillersSpring*

        Amen. Unwanted physical touching is obnoxious and should be a fireable offense. Please, please give this woman an enthusiastically positive reference!

        1. Bangs Not Fringe*

          I was recently upset when a colleague decided they had a right to touch my skin to check if I was cold because I hadn’t removed my jacket. It was in fact freezing. The coworker had a habit of making physical contact while speaking to me, and I would literally jump back from the attempts.

          No one has a right to touch you without your permission. Especially in the work place.

          1. MegaMoose, Esq*

            One of the older women in my office gave me the cold hand to the back of the neck treatment twice a couple of weeks ago. I was pretty flabbergasted and reacted in a way I think she viewed as playful, but really, it’s hard to know how to react in that situation. I like to think I’d react calmly and forcefully if someone pinched me, but I don’t know that I would.

          2. Noobtastic*

            “No one has a right to touch you without your permission. Especially in the work place.”

            This reminded me. Just before I left my last job, we got a new employee who, for religious reasons, could not touch females. His supervisor introduced him around, and explained that he would not be shaking hands with any women, because of religious reasons, and everyone (at least to my knowledge) just accepted it, because no one should touch him without his permission, INCLUDING shaking hands.

            He wasn’t bigoted against women, from what I can tell. In fact, his supervisor was a woman, and she had no problem with hiring him. The only thing was the no-touching rule, and really, except for the odd handshake, it wasn’t an issue at work. If he had said he didn’t shake hands with anyone at all, that would have been just as valid.

            There are all kinds of touch that can be unwelcome, for all kinds of reasons. Only touch someone without their permission in an emergency, when it’s the only way to get their attention, or to move them (either out of danger or they ARE the danger that needs to be removed), or to administer life-saving first aid. And even for the first aid, you’re supposed to get their permission, if they are conscious. Yes, even for the Heimlich maneuver, you’re supposed to ask first. They teach that in the CPR/First Aid classes, at least the ones that give a Red Cross certification.

            1. OhNoNotAgain*

              Hmm, I can only imagine a white person saying they won’t shake hands with a person of color because of religious reasons. Saying it’s due to religious reasons is no less discriminatory nor is it a free pass to discriminate against an already marginalized group of people–if that’s his beliefs, then he shouldn’t shake the hands of men, either.

              1. Starbuck*

                I agree. This exact issue has been written about before on this blog, and the consensus seemed to be that the most reasonable accommodation (to respect sincerely held religious beliefs but also not allow sex-based discrimination) was to have that person not shake anyone’s hand, male or female.

      2. Gaia*

        This office needs to teach people Criss Cross Apple Sauce policy: Keep your arms and legs to yourself. Touch no one else.

        1. Koko*

          Wait, Criss Cross Apple Sauce means don’t touch anyone? When I was a kid, it was a rhyme you chanted while tracing shapes on someone’s back to induce shivers.

              1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

                Well, it’s not exactly lotus. Lotus is with the soles of the feet facing upward, not feet tucked underneath oneself.

            3. JessaB*

              I didn’t know that about criss cross, we always called it Tailor style. Cause tailors measuring hems used to sit like that to get closer to the person they were working on.

              1. Purest Green*

                Clearly we were using this stuff wrong, because we did the circle circle dot dot as a cootie treatment and the applesauce thing as a defensive ward against cooties.

                1. Gogglemarks*

                  I learned “circle dot, I do not!” as the response to “pinch poke, owe me a coke” in school. Criss Cross Apple Sauce was how we knew it was time to come sit crosslegged on the rug instead of at our desks. Pretty sure there was some element of keeping hands to oneself in there somewhere too.

          3. Emi.*

            We said “Criss cross, apple sauce, HANDS IN YOUR LAP,” which is how we knew not to touch each other.

            1. Falling Diphthong*

              One of my kids’ kindergarten teachers kept a basket of beanie babies for children who absolutely had to fidget with something during circle time. The office might want to consider this solution.

              1. Emi.*

                We were actually given piles of plastic fidgeting toys at new employee orientation, because honestly, who can sit through two days of How To Call 911 and Diversity Bingo without fidgeting? No one, that’s who.

                2. Noobtastic*

                  Oh, brilliant!

                  Well, the toys. Not the two days of “How to Call 911” and “Diversity Bingo.”

              2. Hibiscus*

                They make professional looking jewelry for people who stim as part of ASD/ADHD behaviors. Maybe someone in the company should become a catalog rep.

                1. Clever Name*

                  Ooooh. I tend to fidget with office supplies (paperclips, small twist ties). This sounds right up my alley.

                2. JessaB*

                  I just saw a kickstarter for a really elegant looking pen that has fidgets on it (a rocker switch, a twirl around a disc near the top, a way to fidget the clip back and forth and a nice smooth spot to play with.) Seriously nice pen. I can’t find the link to it, but I think if you searched fidget pen, you’d find it or something like it.

                  I bought one of those cheap cubes that have textures and stuff to manipulate. The only part that bothered me was the little bump that allowed you to swirl around a circle bit, it was too small for me to actually make it move. I got a bit of Sugru in a matching colour and enlarged it. Works great.

                  But yeh a lot of places are now realising that adults have fidget needs too (a lot of people don’t grow out of ADHD even though it used to be presumed they would.) So there’s an industry now that makes nice desk things for grownups as well as things for kids.

                  People really aren’t designed to sit still a lot. I think it’s a function of evolution, in the old days, most of the work people had to do involved movement or walking around. This sitting behind a desk all day or in a classroom all day is relatively new to the species.

            2. Erin*

              My daughter’s preschool says “criss cross, apple sauce, spoons in your bowl,” with the spoons representing keeping your hands in your own lap.

      3. eplawyer*

        St. Patrick’s Day, St. Swithin’s Day, Michaelmas, or whatever, you do not assault people at work. The date does not give people a pass to assault co-workers.

        How would you have handled it if she came to you and said “I was pinched” and it wasn’t St. Patrick’s Day? You then handle pinching on St. Patrick’s Day the exact same way. The fact that you are trying to reconcile the fact that it was holiday makes it okay to assault someone is rather worrisome. You need to look at this as you would any other tupe of assualt in your office. Not find a way to make it her fault for not putting up with it.

    5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      1000% agreed on all counts. OP#1, you owe your receptionist a fair reference (as Alison noted, the reference you would have given had she not quit on the spot) and a sincere apology. While your assistant’s reaction was severe, I don’t blame her at all, and based on your retelling, her reaction sounds justified.

      It sounds like you think she’s out of line, but I’d encourage you to take a big step back and view what happened from her perspective, or to at least speak to friends whose jobs have a more reserved approach to celebrating St. Patrick’s Day. I’m slightly horrified that your assistant’s former coworkers silenced her and ignored her legitimate concerns re: cultural appropriation. But I’m also having a hard time understanding why your office is “celebrating” in the same way that second graders celebrate St. Patrick’s Day and forcing someone to endure physical harassment for opting out. How is it ok for adults to physically assault one another, and why did no one knock it off after the first complaint? Frankly, no one should have pinched her the first time, let alone the second time in an area close to her butt (even by accident).

      1. Sami*

        Absolutely. Why no one took a stand to say “Stop the pinching.” is beyond me. (In fact I probably would have thrown in a few swear words). What a ridiculous situation.
        The people who DID the pinching are the ones who need a stern talking to- at the least.

        1. Lance*

          Absolutely; they need to be let know that this must never happen again, under any circumstance.

        2. Newby*

          I would have been tempted to quit as well. Enjoying a holiday and green food is one thing. Harassing someone who does not want to participate (especially physical harassment) is far beyond what should be acceptable. The people who pinched her should be disciplined and everyone in the office should be reminded that pinching is not acceptable in the workplace, even if it is meant to be playful. It sounds like everyone in the office has lost perspective.

      2. Koko*

        I also seriously side-eye the excuse about the butt-pinching being an accident because she had already started to sit down…so what, he was going to pinch her thigh before her butt suddenly lowered? That isn’t any better! If he was aiming for the arm he would have hit the shoulder when she sat down, not her butt.

      3. INTP*

        Agree with all of this except that I don’t think the butt pinch was an accident, at least not an attempt at an innocent non-sexual pinch. If you accidentally pinch someone on the but because they started to sit down, that means you were trying to pinch them on the thigh (probably the back or side of the thigh) and that’s a pretty clear sexual harassment zone too imo. (I mean, pinching anyone anywhere is not okay at work, but if you’re really doing it out of misguided holiday spirit I feel like you’d stick with to the forearm.) So that adds a level of “I’ve been sexually harassed in full view of everyone and no one is defending me” to the whole thing.

        1. INFJ*

          Yeah, I had an eyebrow raised at the “she started to sit down” explanation, too. I can’t picture a case in which that would physically make sense.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I don’t believe it’s an accident, either, but just going by OP’s rendition of events. :)

      4. Machiamellie*

        I’m in charge of the “fun” activities and teambuilding things here at work. Everyone always seems to want to latch onto days like St Patrick’s and Cinco de Mayo to have themed food days, etc. I resist it whenever I can, just to make sure we’re not offending anyone, but I seem to be the only one that cares about that.

        1. Chinook*

          “Everyone always seems to want to latch onto days like St Patrick’s and Cinco de Mayo to have themed food days, etc. I resist it whenever I can”

          If you can have them focus on it is a themed food day, I can see it as being a great cross-cultural event. The problem is when people feel the need to dress up, etc. After all, just because it is Chinese New Year’s doesn’t mean you get to make slanty eye jokes/ching-chong jokes but I believe my Chinese colelagues would be insulted to be told that their various New Year pastries are unwelcome.

        2. Noobtastic*

          My advice: Keep the food, but lose the theme.

          If you’re providing food, provide food like you would for any other food-providing event. If you’re doing a pot-luck, people will bring whatever, anyway, and a theme will develop (or not), naturally, based on the actual members of the group. You might be surprised at the Mexicans bringing bagels and lox or the Irish bringing chop suey, or they might bring something culturally authentic to the holiday. You never know with pot lucks. The surprise is half the fun.

          Sign up sheets for “Appetizer, salad, entree, dessert, drink, dishes” are good, and nice and general, while still allowing for all the bases to be covered. I LOVE it when pot-luck organizers put spaces in the sign-up sheet for “drinks” and “dishes” or even “snacks”, because lots of people just aren’t into cooking, or don’t have money or time to run to a grocery store for something fresh, but would be happy to contribute by bringing stacks of cups or napkins or chips and dip, or 2-liter bottle of soda. And having participated in a pot-luck where no one thought about dishes, I can tell you, it is VITAL to have that covered!

          A well-organized pot-luck is usually a great morale-booster, and you won’t get in trouble for cultural appropriation, if you don’t officially assign a theme.

      5. Newby*

        I think this is a sign that the office should not have any holiday themed events. They don’t sound like they can handle it appropriately. A holiday is never license to harass others.

    6. Engineer Girl*

      The assistant quit because they were assaulted and no one would do anything about it. That’s a perfectly reasonable stance to take.
      In the US there are mass services so to some it is considered a religious holiday. Many of Irish descent to consider all the other things (especially the drinking and other antics) appropriation.
      Sorry OP #1 – you are coming across as totally tone deaf to what happened. Time for some reflection.

      1. CDM*

        The assistant didn’t give the employer any time to do anything about it.

        The first instance was on her way to a meeting, the second was sitting down for the same meeting, and she walked immediately. This appears to have been a matter of minutes.

        Quitting on the spot without giving the employer any opportunity to correct an issue is rarely a reasonable stance.

        1. Caro in the UK*

          I think, knowing that pinching was a possibility (which it seems like it was, given OP’s perspective that it’s normal at their workplace on St Patrick’s Day) the employer had time to preemptively protect her assistant when she complained that the festivities were offensive to her and that she wouldn’t be participating. OP could (and should) have spotted that pinching was not going to be well received by the assistant and told others to refrain.

          The employer had a second opportunity to do something about the pinching after the first time their employee was pinched.

          I don’t think I would have necessarily quit on the spot after the second incident, purely based on the info from the letter. However, given OP’s immediate reaction that the assistant was in the wrong, so much so as to refuse to provide a reference, it seems like the assistant may have felt that no amount of time would have elicited the employer to do anything about it.

          1. DeskBird*

            But the employer didn’t have second opportunity to do something. The OP wasn’t present for either incident – and it doesn’t seem like the OP was even told about either incident until after the employee walked off. No one in authority was really given any chance to respond. The least she could have done is go to her boss and explain what was happening.

            1. Tim*

              The employee made it clear that it wasn’t welcome the first time, and it then happened again, this time with a sexual element. How many times is it reasonable to tolerate this before enough is enough?

              She would have been perfectly entitled to walk out immediately after the first incident. We can see from the OP that their manager, far from being sympathetic, feels that she is in the wrong for not putting up with physical assault. If you know that’s how your manager will react, why on earth should you bother explaining anything to him?

              1. Bangs Not Fringe*

                Let’s wager that most people coming to work expect to not be harassed. And everyone deserves that expectation to be met. When the supervisor knows the office culture and associated customs (pinching!), they should have the foresight to see how these actions are beyond inappropriate when targeting an unwilling coworker (let alone anyone in a professional environment or really anywhere, ever).

                It’s crappy when employees have to constantly set their own boundaries in the workplace to protect themselves from things that should never be happening in the first place. There are harassment policies for a reason.

              2. Rose*

                I don’t agree with the OP but the fact the employee made that clear to one person doesn’t mean the other person knew it had bothered her. I read it as two isolated incidences the OP heard about after the fact. I also really don’t think it’s your job as a manager to ask employees not to pinch each other. If your employees are over the age of 10 I wouldn’t expect it to be a problem. I don’t think we can say for sure OP knew what was going on and ignored it.

                That beings said, from OP’s letter it doesn’t seem like he would have done much about it. Maybe the assistant predicted the outcome and decided to get the heck out. The extremity of her reaction makes me wonder if this wasn’t the first time her coworkers had done something inappropriate and her boss had essentially told her to lighten up.

                1. Susan*

                  Who cares if either of the harassers “knew that it bothered her”? What they did was assault, & the fact that others in the office may not have cared about it didn’t change that. But I agree that the Letter Writer’s reaction shows that s/he would most likely would have done nothing about it other than to either tell her she was “being too sensitive”, or, worse yet, make a big deal out of telling everyone to “leave her alone, because she was too sensitive”.

            2. animaniactoo*

              Hey, her complaints – as the only person actually *OF* the background in the office were already dismissed and this went full force ahead.

              How was she supposed to have any assurance that anything would be addressed at all, rather than more dismissal – particularly as “Oh, c’mon, it’s all in good fun” or “I understand you’re upset, but it’s part of the tradition and it will be over tomorrow” or something in that vein?

              Sometimes – the first few pieces are egregious enough that they don’t get more attempts to make it better. They just don’t. She’s not required to give them more opportunities to fail her on this front. She gets to stand up for herself and say “I’m out of here”.

              Seriously – think about how bad the general atmosphere already has to be in that office that this was:

              a) an all-day event, not just a potluck in the middle of the day or something
              b) widely promoted with everybody on board and willing to ignore the person with the most right to have an issue with it
              c) an atmosphere/event where people felt free at work to physically touch somebody and cause them minor pain for not participating.

              If you recognize you’re fighting the tide, well you can fight the tide or you can turn around and swim for shore.

              1. Amber T*

                Agreed. For the employee to just up and quit, it’s likely one of two things – either the assistant is unreliable and was generally a bad employee, or the office was toxic to her and this was her breaking point. Based on the information in the letter, it definitely leans to the latter.

                For what it’s worth, I love my work place. I get along great with most of my coworkers and I like my work. But if I was continuously pinched, and my complaint was met with “meh, it’s the holiday, get over it,” I’d walk out too. My response would be “I’ll come back when I can feel safe at work,” and if my concerns were still met flippantly, I would start looking for another job. Because here is a real concern I have about the safety and comfort I have at work. It would be one thing if an idiot employee or two decided to start pinching people and management reprimanded them – then the fault lies with the idiot employees. But when management doesn’t take real concerns seriously, that shows a whole ‘nother host of problems, and that is a work place I don’t want to be associated with.

              2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                Agreed. Seriously, people pinching you, particularly near the butt, is a “do not pass go, do not collect $200”-level problem. I rarely think it’s ok to quit without notice. But this story certainly meets the bar for whether it’s ok for a person to quit on the spot.

              3. Noobtastic*

                Completely OT here, but if you’re actually caught in a rip-tide, the correct thing to do is not to swim for shore, but to swim PARALLEL to shore, until you get out of the rip tide, and then swim to shore. The reason is that you will become exhausted, if you swim against the tide, and may not make it to shore, but if you swim parallel, you won’t be fighting against the tide, and using up all your strength against it, and eventually, you will get free from the drag, and still have the strength to get to shore.

                Your safety PSA for the day.

            3. L Dub*

              The employer had the opportunity to hear the assistant’s complaints about how the day was being handled in advance and they chose not to do anything about her concerns. Why on earth would she think they would handle the pinching any differently? They’ve already demonstrated to her they won’t address her completely valid concerns.

            4. Observer*

              Wait, how long does it take to STOP PINCHING PEOPLE.

              She made it clear that she was not intending to participate.
              She got pinched once and YELLED at the person who did it. That made it PERFECTLY clear that she was NOT ok with it.
              She was pinched a SECOND TIME – this time IN FRONT OF OTHER PEOPLE, *including* someone with at least SOME AUTHORITY. NO ONE made a move to stop it although there was someone there whose JOB it was to stop it. Instead, she was subject to excuse making – being told that pinching is ok because it’s part of HER tradition.

              At that point, why would any reasonable person stick around? How many more times does she have to be pinched before the office has been give “enough time”?

              Furthermore, the OP’s response proves that they would NOT have made it right and would not have stopped the pinching. The OP has made it clear that she did not at any point try to apologize to the the Admin, and clearly faults her for her reaction.

              2. Not So NewReader*

                I spoke up when my manager was dragging my assistant manager across the floor by one arm. The assistant manager told me to be quiet.

                Nope, that isn’t going to happen. I will not be quiet. I don’t care of the recipient of that behavior is telling me to shut up. I needed the manager to know he could absolutely not do that to me under any circumstances.

            5. Sadsack*

              And here is her boss writing in, acting like the employee is the problem and threatening to withhold a positive reference. I wonder what would have been done if the boss had a chance to talk to her. Nothing is my guess.

              1. Just Another Techie*

                Yes exactly. The boss’s reaction in their letter totally justifies the assistant’s assumption that nothing would be done about her complaints. Remember, she’s had however many years to get to know her boss and can make some pretty reasonable guesses about how OP would react to her bringing a complaint.

            6. Natalie*

              I think pinching co-workers is far enough out of the norm enough that walking out is perfectly reasonable.

              If you think about this slightly differently, divorced from a children’s holiday tradition – say it was normal in this office to lightly slap co-workers on the back of the head when they made a mistake. If that happened to you twice in short succession, it’s understandable that your first reaction isn’t “let’s go talk to the boss” but rather “I have clearly accidentally gotten a job at an office full of loons”.

              2. Camellia*

                Yeah, the Gibb-smack bothers me. When will we reach the point where we understand that even ‘light’ assault is not okay or cute or funny and should stop being depicted in TV and movies as such? Women slapping men, bosses smacking people, ‘he only hits you/pinches you/pulls your pigtails because he likes you’ – none of this is okay!

              3. Amber T*

                I used to be a huge fan of NCIS (still am of earlier seasons), but it’s definitely one of the shows that promotes the idea “Coworkers are family! Love your coworkers through anything! Work/life balance doesn’t exist!” Not a great example of what a work place *should* be like.

                1. Emi.*

                  Is it any worse than any other workplace on TV, though? Mulder hits Skinner in the face and constantly mishandles evidence; Ron Swanson subjects his reports to his political opinions; etc; etc. I think it’s just hard to write a TV show about a workplace unless all the interesting stuff happens at work.

                2. Amber T*

                  @Emi nah, it’s all the same. An appropriate office setting wouldn’t make for good tv. Conflict is comedy to outsiders. I love The Office, but I would quit in a heartbeat if that was my daily life.

                3. animaniactoo*

                  Totally off-topic, but they’ve managed to bring it back to life this season. Although Gibbs doesn’t head-slap anyone anymore – he hadn’t headsmacked Tony in awhile anyway, but with him gone it appears that’s definitely a dead dynamic.

                4. Specialk9*

                  I watched NCIS for the first time lately, and it really helped me understand 90s history – people used to think that sexual harassment was so routine and normal that it was a punchline.

                  Like the icky guy coworker for whom the ‘joke’ is that he’s creepy to women but gets away with it because he’s handsome. He got his colleagues souvenirs from a work trip, I think a Spanish language book or video for the men, and a bikini for the woman. A bikini with no top. For his colleague. While his male boss and coworkers watched, did nothing, and just rolled their eyes and walked away.

                  I like the happy competent goth lady, but that was too upsetting for me to be able to continue watching the show.

            7. aebhel*

              Well, if this happened to me at work, I probably wouldn’t walk off the job. That’s because I like my workplace and generally feel that my coworkers are reasonable people and issues are resolved appropriately. If the assistant didn’t have faith that the boss would resolve this issue appropriately (which seems like a reasonable attitude, given the tone of the letter, tbh) and/or if there were other ongoing issues (which, given how wildly inappropriate all of this is, also seems likely), walking off the job looks a lot more like a reasonable reaction.

              1. Natalie*

                Right, I’m not saying it’s the *only* reasonable reaction, just one of them depending on factors we can’t know.

          2. TootsNYC*

            I agree with this: ” it seems like the assistant may have felt that no amount of time would have elicited the employer to do anything about it”

        2. animaniactoo*

          I don’t know – if I was pinched *twice* in the space of minutes under circumstances that pretty much guaranteed it was going to happen *all day*? I’d probably quit on the spot too if I could afford it.

          The atmosphere of an office that thinks this kind of thing is acceptable “in all good fun” has got so much wrong with it that fixing the pinching is not going to fix the office in anything like a fast enough timeline for me to stay and put up with that crap.

        3. GreyjoyGardens*

          Pinching a coworker (seriously? *Pinching*?) is not a reasonable thing to do. The assistant – indeed, anyone – is entitled to not be physically assaulted in the workplace. Quitting on the spot was reasonable under the circumstances, IMO.

          1. Lance*

            Better yet, she yelled — yelled — after the first time she was pinched, and was clearly not happy about it. At that point, no, I don’t blame her at all for walking since nobody apparently got the very clear message.

        4. Purest Green*

          I wondered why the assistant didn’t go to her boss or anyone else of authority about this (though maybe that was omitted from the letter), but the fact that she told everyone she wasn’t celebrating and still got pinched, twice! might indicate previous problems she’s had with these coworkers.

          1. Tuxedo Cat*

            That’s what I was thinking and the OP might want to investigate that… Of course, the coworkers could have just been behaving like this on one day but part of me thinks they were mistreating her in other ways in the name of “fun” and this was the final straw.

          2. Observer*

            Well, for starters, there was someone with some authority present for the second pinch, since it was in a meeting, so there had to be a person who was running the meeting.

            Secondly, the OP, who is the Admin’s boss has made it clear that she doesn’t see anything wrong with the pinching. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that the Admin knew what her boss’ attitude is.

        5. A.*

          I don’t know the background but I get the impression colleagues that behave like this may have been unpleasant in other ways. I can see the argument for giving management a chance to correct this if the colleagues are otherwise professional and pleasant to work with and this was a one-off. But if there was a pattern of offensive behavior I could easily see this situation being the absolute last straw.

          Even if this was an isolated situation it’s still pretty awful.

          1. AnonAnalyst*

            I also wondered about this. I have never worked in an office full of grown adults who thought pinching coworkers was appropriate. The fact that it was so widely accepted in this office suggests to me that professional norms might be lacking elsewhere. If I’m in that situation and a coworker “accidentally” pinches my butt, but it’s laughed off “because I started to sit down?” Yeah, I might walk off the job too.

            1. Newby*

              It does sound like the overall office culture lead the employee to believe that complaining to her boss would do nothing. We don’t even know if this was the first time. All we know is that it was the final straw. If all my coworkers thought it was perfectly fine to pinch me, I don’t think I would care if my boss would back me up or not. It would still not be a place I would want to work.

                1. Susan*

                  I think the impossibility of reaching for an arm & “accidentally” getting someone’s buttocks kind of proves that it was. As has been outlined elsewhere in the thread, what else could you have been aiming for that would accidentally result in pinching someone’s buttocks if your only defense is the claim of “Well, she was sitting down, so I missed”?

    7. Elizabeth H.*

      It’s totally different from the Black History Month example. For better or for worse St. Patrick’s Day is an American minor holiday. To my mind it is rather weird that this office celebrates it so fervently but I think the ship has sailed on the whole concept.

      I hate being pinched (I don’t know anyone who likes it???) but it just doesn’t rise to the level of assault (I know what the technical definition is, but I feel like the term is typically just used to encourage hysteria and reinforce fantasies about ill advised legal action). Discipline the employees who pinched the assistant, apologize to her, give her a reference commensurate with her performance and never celebrate St Patrick’s Day in the office again. Done.

      1. Gaia*

        Elizabeth, St Patrick’s Day is an Irish holiday that has been appropriated by America (due, primarily, to our large Irish-American communities) but many Irish Americans find the way non-Irish celebrate it wildly offensive (the leprechauns, binge drinking, etc). So it really isn’t at all different than appropriating any other culture in an offensive manner. Some will be more offended than others but that doesn’t matter. What matters is how you respond and this office responded atrociously.

        And regarding assault – any unwanted physical contact, particularly painful physical contact, is assault and has no business in the workplace. No one is suggesting legal action here but that doesn’t change what the action is: assault.

        1. FiveWheels*

          Whereas many Irish don’t find the USA-style celebrations offensive so much as baffling

          1. Kathleen Adams*

            The only Irish person I’ve ever discussed this with in any detail (Irish as in “born and raised in Ireland”) just thinks it’s kind of silly but harmless, and while she lives in Ireland, she’s got a lot of relatives here in the US so she is familiar with the customs. But hey, YMMV.

        2. Emi.*

          American St. Patrick’s Day is an Irish-American holiday. Diaspora cultures are cultures too.

          1. Kathleen Adams*

            That’s how my born-and-raised-in-Ireland friend sees it too. There’s St. Patrick’s Day in Ireland and there’s St. Patrick’s Day in America, and in those two very different places, the same day has acquired different meanings. I mean, in the US, an awful lot of it is all about claiming your heritage as someone whose ancestors came from Ireland. Obviously they don’t have to worry about kind of thing in Ireland. :-)

        3. Anna*

          Please see Emi’s comment below. St. Patrick’s Day celebrations started in large cities with large Irish immigrant populations. They started out not resembling what people think of celebrations in Ireland because they were meant to bring communities of immigrants together to wax poetic about the Homeland and to remember The Good Old Times. It was not appropriated by anyone.

          We tend to think traditions are static and don’t change, but they do. How St. Patrick’s Day is celebrated now is probably a bit rowdier than how Irish-Americans celebrated originally, but it’s more that a bunch of people who were being nostalgic about their country of birth celebrated a little too hard. What’s changed is that became a focus of the celebration, rather than a side effect. I know people who call it Amateur Hour.

          1. fposte*

            There’s a a nice history here: http://time.com/3744055/america-invented-st-patricks-day/

            I think there’s also probably an intersection with U.S. drinking culture in general. That’s probably too complicated for me to put together on the fly, but certainly the consumption of alcohol was much greater in the nineteenth century and earlier (lack of clean water will do that to you), but it was integrated into daily consumption rather than an attempt to get drunk. It seems like we go in more for culturally sanctioned drunkenness at specific times like holidays or sports events instead, and that combines with that popular youthful impulse to go out and kick up a fuss in general.

            1. Specialk9*

              In the 1800s, Americans drank like fish. Just a decade before the Irish Potato Famine, people in the US were drinking an average 26.5 liters of pure alcohol a year, or 3 times the current average.(1) But as you said, lots of drinking throughout the day, in an agrarian society without cars or electric saws or conveyor belts to pose dangers to lightly buzzed workers. Though the average life expectancy was only 37. (2)

              (1) 9 liters is the current US and 12 liters the current Irish average. The top drinking country today, Belarus, is 18.

              (2) Skewed heavily by infant mortality, and medicine. The number of Americans who could expect to live to age 60 in 1830 was only one-third. By 1900 it was one-half. By 1940 it increased to two-thirds. And today, the number who survives to age 60 is over 80%.

      2. Misc*

        it just doesn’t rise to the level of assault (I know what the technical definition is, but I feel like the term is typically just used to encourage hysteria

        Regardless of the severity of the physical action, having people touch you when you don’t want them to is invasive and upsetting. Pain just magnifies the emotional impact. Assault is usually more about the intrusion on personal boundaries (i.e. your body) than the actual physical harm and acknowledging it *as* assault helps people figure out why they find it traumatic.

        (for example, remember how upsetting it used to be if you had a sibling who would keep touching you and generate the ‘STOP TOUCHING ME’ response, possibly followed by punching? Sure, the punching is ‘worse’, but if it follows ten minutes of subtle prodding, both parties are going to be pretty upset by the whole thing. As an adult a parent can’t just step in, you have to get a legal authority to do it).

        1. sstabeler*

          to slightly extend the anology, this is like a sibling keeping touching you, then, when you tell them to knock it off, YOU are punished for creating a disturbance (and are told to put up with said sibling touching you)

          2. Misc*

            Yes! I got sidetracked and forgot to get to that point. Where you get told off for punching and yelling, or BOTH of you get told off on the basis that the parent doesn’t want to figure out what actually happened because both prodding and punching are bad.

          3. FormerLibrarian*

            My entire childhood. (sis: [poke, poke, poke ad infinitum] me: stop it! sis: [poke, poke, poke etc., etc.,] me: Mom! Make her stop! Mom: you deal with it yourself. Me [Slap!!] Mom: [to me] go to your room!)

            I had a supervisor type in one job who assaulted me several times (just assault, no battery), and no one, not even HR gave a damn. She wasn’t in my chain of command, she was just the charge nurse half the time I worked, so I wasn’t supposed to be bothered by it because she couldn’t fire me. If she’d actually touched me, I’d have been out of there in a second, and my lawyer would have done all the talking for me. After over 2o years I still hate that hospital with the passion of a thousand burning suns, as well as the b**** who made my life hell for 20 months (but who was counting?).

            When the employee applies for unemployment, I strongly recommend the OP and the company NOT contest it. This would seem to be a classic case of constructive dismissal.

        2. TootsNYC*

          Actually you can step in–we can always tell people we don’t think their actions are right. You might offend people, or violate social or office norms, and your leverage may have limits. But you can step in, as a bystander.

          1. Bangs Not Fringe*

            You also do not have to be the victim of harassment to report harassment. Harassment complaints are perfectly valid coming from a witness.

          2. Misc*

            ‘Step in’ as in ‘have official authority to tell someone to modify their behaviour and enforce definite consequences’. A bystander can (and often should) interfere, but they generally can’t fire someone or fine them or hand out other actual consequences on their own. And often it’s not reasonable to expect that, depending on the situation.

            1. Noobtastic*

              They don’t have to be effective, with authority to fire the offender. Just a bystander saying “Hey, stop that!” works wonders.

              Either the offender will listen, and stop, or the offender will not listen, and not stop, but the victim will know that SOMEONE cared enough to speak up for them, and feel just a little bit safer and more valued, because of it.

              Really, when I was assaulted in public, the thing that hurt the most is that the people all around me never spoke up. I felt hurt by my assailant but downright betrayed by my “friends.” Two words, that is all it would have taken for me to feel better about the whole thing.

              Also, a bystander who says, “Stop that,” can embolden the victim to actually make a report, through proper channels, knowing that someone will stand as witness. The OP’s assistant likely felt completely alone.

        3. INFJ*

          Thanks for this perspective. I was wondering why everyone was using the word “assault”, and couldn’t find any calm, thoughtful explanations.

          1. Misc*

            You’re welcome!

            Mostly it’s a way of defining whether a specific interaction was Officially Not Okay or just specifically annoying to that individual. While their feelings matter when deciding how to handle something, it doesn’t decide whether or not that interaction was Legally Okay or invasive or whatever. Assault’s impact and severity is super context dependent.

            The legal definitions of assault give people a good baseline. Once you know it was or wasn’t assault, it’s much easier to discuss the actual magnitude, rather than arguing at cross purposes because person A thinks hair patting is totally fine and not traumatising to anyone because it doesn’t upset them personally, whereas punching in a non friendly way requires the police, and person B thinks hair petting is weird and creepy but not equivalent to punching someone, but also doesn’t want to just say ‘so it’s okay to pet people’s hair randomly’ just because it’s technically not as ‘bad’. Or finds hair petting super upsetting and doesn’t actually mind being punched.

            If you can agree both are technically assault, you don’t have to decide how ‘bad’ it is before agreeing that it was a Not Okay Thing and condemning it and move onto the (theoretically) more productive discussion of exactly how bad it was in a specific context.

      3. Mookie*

        I’m slightly gobsmacked at the suggestion that the word “assault” reinforces hysterical “fantasies” when used to accurately characterize the act of pulling tender parts of someone else’s flesh to inflict discomfort and cause embarrassment. If intentionally spitting on someone in the US is battery, nonconsensual pinching as punishment for the egregious act of not wearing green* is not on.

        *I personally cut orange-wearers a wide berth on 17 March for reasons of personal safety (but I’d never touch, yell at, or demean them)

        1. FiveWheels*

          Who wears orange on March 17th? I’m not sure if you mean Orangemen or it’s an American thing I’ve missed…

            1. Jen Erik*

              Really, really not.

              Also: protesting what? I’m very much a protestant, and we always marked St Patrick’s Day with the wild excitement that was singing ‘St Patrick’s Breastplate’ in Assembly rather than our usual hymn – it doesn’t compare with the American festivities, but no-one has anything against him. He’s respected (and claimed) by both communities.

              1. Juli G.*

                It wasn’t so much wearing orange or being Protestant as it was being part of the Orange Order a couple centuries back.

              2. Oranges are not the only fruit*

                It may not be something you have encountered before, but it does in fact happen.

                1. No day but today*

                  Absolutely! My FIL is an ass and likes to reminisce about being a teen and heading to Boston for the St. Paddy’s day parade with his friends…all of them Italian and all of them dressed in head to toe orange. He welcomed the harassment and outrage their outfits brought because, have I mentioned he’s an ass? My MIL is first generation Irish-American and even to this day he wears orange despite the fact that it upsets her.

                2. go orange!*

                  No day but today –
                  wearing orange does not make you FIL an ass.
                  Green = Irish Catholic
                  Orange = Irish Protestant

                4. go orange!*

                  @fposte
                  ??
                  Because I’m not wearing the forced green?
                  I’m not Catholic. When we were kids this was very important – only Catholics wore green.

                  You keep your traditions, I’ll keep mine thank you.

                5. fposte*

                  @go orange–I’m not saying that wearing orange automatically makes somebody an ass; I’m disagreeing with you that No day’s FIL wasn’t being an ass, since he was doing it deliberately to stir up trouble. Which is pretty much the definition of an ass. Nothing to do with tradition for the FIL in question, so I think you were misapplying why *you* do it to why *he* did it.

                6. JTD*

                  As an actual Irish person here, from a Catholic family with Protestant in-laws of varying flavours, wearing orange on 17 March is a level of goading (unless you’re a clueless Dutch visitor) that is horribly offensive to loads of Irish people, both Protestant and Catholic. The 12th of July is the Orange holiday (with bonus goading and deliberately incited violence on both sides), and for those congregations that prefer not to go with the relatively recent connotations of green, there’s always the lovely serene St Patrick’s blue, as seen on the president’s insignia.

              3. animaniactoo*

                Really, yes. Maybe not in Ireland, but definitely here in the US. I grew up in the 70s and 80s and even into the 90s where it was something that was looked out for and an issue at the parades in NYC.

                1. FiveWheels*

                  How wonderful… So people in America wear Dutch colours to protest against the Irish patron saint’s day?

                2. Markethill*

                  Yes, because it was a Dutch prince (William of Orange) who fought the Battle of the Boyne. This isn’t senseless, just complex.

              4. Amy the Rev*

                It’s not so much about being simply religiously protestant, though the practice of Irish Protestants wearing orange on st. patricks day to protest the catholic holiday started in the 1600s. With all the religious-political turmoil in the centuries since, taking into account the Orange Riots, and other examples of sectarian violence, wearing orange on St. Paddy’s is generally considered to be toolishly provocative, especially in diaspora countries where the revelers have no real tangible connection with the Troubles.

            2. cbackson*

              Not in the United States, except perhaps in incredibly limited circumstances (which I’ve never seen or heard of in real life) and I pretty fervently object to attempts to characterize it as such. No one gets to drag me into the political conflict in Northern Ireland based on what I happened to wear on a holiday that I don’t care about.

              1. Lili*

                Yeah, I grew up (in the US) hearing that Catholics are supposed to wear green, while Protestants wear orange. Then I learned about all of the political ramifications of that…so the most I’ll do is enjoy a Guinness.

                (Also, I tend to pinch back. It baffles celebrants, but gets the point across)

              2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                I don’t think that’s accurate. I had the same understanding as others—that in the United States, wearing orange on St. Patrick’s Day is 100% a Protestant protest. My experience might be skewed because I’ve grown up mostly in cities or metro areas with large Irish-American populations, but it was certainly a thing. It may not be uniformly seen as a protest in the U.S., but that’s certainly the connotation in places where St. Patrick’s Day is celebrated in a “big” way.

              3. Specialk9*

                Well the Orange Riots were in the US and left 60 Irish Catholics dead at the hands of orange wearing Protestants. It was in your school textbooks, presumably.

            3. FiveWheels*

              I am a British and Irish dual national and have spent the majority of my life in Belfast. I have never once come across the idea of wearing orange as an anti St Patrick’s Day, anti Irish, or anti Catholic protest.

              The Protestant/Unionist community does not have a problem with St Patrick’s Day. They often have a problem with how it is celebrated – as an anti British, pro Southern Irish event. But people who want to show their feelings wear red white and blue.

              Orangemen wear orange sashes with black suits and bowler hats, with bandsmen in bands uniforms.

              The very obvious reason why a Northern Irish Protestant/Unionist wouldn’t wear orange on St Patrick’s Day is that orange, plus green, matches the colours of the Republic of Ireland. Why would you protest Irishness by looking like an Irish flag?

        2. plain_jane*

          I’m particularly interested in the use of the term “hysteria” here, which is a particularly gendered term which comes from the idea that women can’t be trusted to have reasonable reactions to things. It’s not their fault of course, dear things, it’s _biology_.

          1. AMPG*

            Yes, thank you for highlighting this, especially since it’s being used to describe the reaction to unwanted touching.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            When people feel unheard, they can escalate. It’s human nature and not always hysteria. I always say that I want to be open enough so that people do not have to drop a concrete wall on me to get their points across.
            The situation gets worse when a person with power does not listen. Power brings about an even higher obligation to listen to people.

        3. Stellaclair*

          I seriously got a lecture from a vendor wearing an orange shirt who saw me wearing green, asked “Are you Roman Catholic?” in an accusatory tone, and then when I said that I was not, proceeded to beat me about the head with history that I’m not even sure was entirely correct. I’m also pretty sure he used the word “Scotch” in reference to Scottish people during that whole thing, so I’m not sure he knew anything about anything really.

          1. fposte*

            Sometimes I think the most dominant culture is people who like to tell other people how wrong they are. Most of us have some roots there :-).

              1. FiveWheels*

                I read a folk etymology once that Scotch Tape is so called because it was cheaper than other brands. If so there’s something for someone to get offended by ;-)

                1. fposte*

                  One US supermarket chain (Safeway) even had an inexpensive generic brand called “Scotch Buy,” associating it with the stereotype of Scottish tight-fistedness. Since the Scots have fared pretty well in America that gets a lot more tolerance than if you’d associated it with some other groups.

                2. FiveWheels*

                  Fposte – I was thinking about this today, and while I’d be happy to call myself a tight Scotland, if someone other than a close friend made the association I would be… Not best pleased.

                3. fposte*

                  @FiveWheels–I think it’s slightly more flattering than the version of it that gets leveled at the Jews–the Scots are canny, while the Jews are greedy–but yeah, I was pretty shocked to encounter “Scotch Buy” in the 1980s.

                  (It’s also a characteristic associated with people from Cardigan in Wales, but that’s a level of granularity that tends to disappear outside of the country.)

                4. Natalie*

                  That wouldn’t quite make sense as it was originally a masking tape, which they invented. So it would have been the only product on the market, cheap or no.

                  But it does come from the same perjorative: 3M’s official story is that it came from the inventor grousing about his “Scotch bosses” not putting enough adhesive on.

          3. sb*

            If it was in relation to immigrant populations, he might have been talking about “Scotch-Irish” (also said as “Scots-Irish”, but Scotch-Irish is more common), which is the correct phrasing by descendents of Ulster Scots who migrated to the US/Canada.

            That is not to say he was necessarily correct about anything, but that there is one circumstance where “Scotch” about people is correct, but ONLY in that compound phrase.

            1. FiveWheels*

              “Scotch Irish” to mean “Ulster Scots” is new to me. Google tells me that Ulster Scots identified themselves as such to distinguish themselves from Irish fleeing the potato famine.

              “Ulster Scots” itself has connotations beyond having both Ulster and Scottish heritage. As a British/Irish dual national with far more Scottish than Irish in me, it’s very interesting to see how the subtle distinctions cross the Atlantic.

      4. Falling Diphthong*

        Most people don’t want to work in an office where pinching, groping, and light smacking are okay because “get over it, it’s not REAL assault, it’s a bit of fun.” Though I imagine it would appeal as a norm to some people convinced they’ll be dishing it out and not taking it.

      5. JB (not in Houston)*

        I’m baffled by how you can say you know what the definition of assault is and then say that, nevertheless, this doesn’t rise to that level simply because you don’t like that people apply it to offenses you don’t think are serious enough. The commenters here aren’t encouraging ill-advised legal action. They’re just correctly pointing out that this isn’t something the employee should have to laugh off, and her being upset was justified.

        1. Elizabeth H.*

          I think that people like calling things “assault” because they want to borrow some sense of external authority based in legal terminology to justify its being wrong, like if we point out that something is technically “assault,” then some disembodied hand of the law will magically appear and punish the wrongdoers. I don’t think this is that useful, we can just leave it as it being terrible behavior that should be disciplined and reacted to.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            YES, thank you. I think that’s exactly it. I’ve been baffled by the focus on “this is assault!” whenever even mentioning touching a coworker comes up here (not because it’s not, but because often taking it to the cops would be bizarre in the contexts where it comes up here), and I think this explains both my bafflement and why it happens.

          2. aebhel*

            Eh, I mean, if I slapped a coworker that would be assault even if it did them no lasting damage. A pinch hurts just as much. Most reasonable people are not going to press charges for such a thing, but calling it assault is just accurately describing the *kind* of terrible, discipline-worthy behavior it is. Maybe that’s just me being pedantic, I don’t know.

            1. fposte*

              Since we’re being pedantic, whether it would be assault or not would depend on the jurisdiction and its terminology. I think that’s another thing that sends the lawyers here (of which I am not one) into explaining mode–that very little of this is the same everywhere in the country.

          3. fposte*

            Yes, good point. I was thinking about our tendency to treat interhuman dynamics as if they were subject to some kind of justice machine, so all we have to do is input the bad behavior and the machine will feed out justice. But the existence of a mechanism doesn’t mean it’s always going to deal with injustice presented to it; most injustice we just need to deal with ourselves or let go.

            1. Katie the Fed*

              Oh, so true!

              I remember when I was wee young fed, I was being sexually harassed by a coworker. I told my boss, and he asked “did you tell him to stop?” and I was so flummoxed because it had never even occurred to me to say something.

          4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Oh, that’s interesting. I call things assault for the reasons JB described, but you’re right that commenters often escalate that description quickly and redirect the conversation to a debate on whether someone should report it to the police or “press charges”… which drives me out of my mind because (a) this is not how this works, and (b) 9 times out of 10 it’s a profoundly useless and extreme reaction to bad office conduct that doesn’t help the OP.

            1. Halpful*

              yeah… I was reading it as “this is wrong, and that’s not just my opinion, the law agrees!” but the frequency of people reading it as “sue!!11!1!” kinda makes it not work. I’m not sure how/if you could phrase it to avoid that interpretation.

            2. Misc*

              I think that’s just the nature of discussions; if it was ruled Not Assault, the escalation would be in the direction ‘so get over it’.

              Defining something as assault is basically the defining line a lot of the time, that then forms the basis of the reaction/discussion around the actual severity.

          5. Katie the Fed*

            Yes! It’s the same with the discrimination/hostile work environment claims. Even when it might be technically true, it probably doesn’t rise to the level of being worth an EEOC claim or lawsuit.

      6. Newby*

        I completely agree with never celebrating St. Patrick’s Day again in this office. I think that they shouldn’t have ANY office holiday celebrations. Normally, I like office Christmas parties or holiday themed snacks, but their judgment seems to be so far off that they just can’t be trusted to celebrate responsibly.

    8. Jen Erik*

      I don’t think that it’s cultural appropriation – St Patrick’s Day was brought to the US by the huge numbers of Irish immigrants. It’s maybe cultural misattribution, in that it’s not, in this form, an Irish holiday, more an Irish-American one.

      But maybe that’s a lost-in-translation thing – I’ve never been to the US, but my husband (not Irish, but has lived in the North for most of his adult life) was over in Boston with an Irish cohort and was several times invited to meet “Granny, who is Irish”. Granny had invariably never set foot in the place, and sometimes her parents hadn’t either.

      That suggests that a different understanding of the word ‘Irish’ – that it’s being used in a different sense than it would be in Ireland. So maybe that’s where the tension lies – that the tradition of St Patrick’s day celebrations are ‘Irish’ in the same way that Granny is ‘Irish’ .

      I think I’m trying to say that I don’t think there’s any appropriation regarding the day itself, but – and I think I’ve invented a new thing here – perhaps there’s been a linguistic appropriation of the descriptor ‘Irish’ . (Adds insult to injury: annoying enough to be pinched, but more so to be pinched because it’s an Irish thing, when you’re Irish and it’s not.)

      1. OES*

        Europeans seem to be constantly surprised (and sometimes offended) by American claims to be “Irish” or “German” or “Italian” or whatever. I think you’ll find this is very characteristic of heterogeneous immigrant cultures, and the many-generation identification with a long-past cultural context is pretty typical. So, the St. Patrick’s Day celebration in the U.S. is not an appropriation but a development of immigrant experiences, just as legitimate as the original. Which is not to say it’s not weird and tacky, because it surely is.

      2. animaniactoo*

        Cultural appropriation is quite literally what you’ve described here – taking another culture – one that you may even be very loosely related to – and claiming to be “of it” and taking pieces of it and using them in ways that are significantly different than the way those who are genuinely of it do. The misattribution is part and parcel of the appropriation.

        1. TL -*

          Except that this celebration was started by Irish people, and continued by their descendants until it turned into what it is today. It is still mostly celebrated where there is a large number of Irish-American people.
          This is what happens to holidays in immigrant countries. It’s really hard to think of it as cultural appropriation because it wasn’t taken from people who had no say in it – it was brought over by the Irish and changed by their descendants and then integrated into the culture they lived in.

          1. animaniactoo*

            Eh, I could argue some differences in that – given quite a lot of marketing from bars and “Kiss me I’m Irish!” and “Everybody’s Irish on St. Patty’s* Day!”, but I think that it’s a sideline from the real discussion here, so let’s agree to disagree.

            *Yes, St. Patrick’s or St. Paddy’s, I know.

          2. fposte*

            And plus there’s a rather significant irony in saying that importation is a problem with a holiday about what was imported to a country :-).

          3. Natalie*

            It reminds me a bit of Hannukah in American Judaism – Jewish immigrant communities and their descendants developed their own traditions around Hannukah and it became a more significant holiday (in the US, at least) than it generally was anywhere else.

            1. fposte*

              There are a couple of really cool children’s books about the different ways Hanukkah is celebrated around the world and Passover celebrated around the world.

        3. Pommette*

          But it isn’t as if people in North America had suddenly, in the 21st century, decided to appropriate what they perceived to be Irish traditions.

          Irish people who came to North America in the 19th century brought traditions with them. St-Patrick’s day became an important holiday in North America because it allowed people living in diaspora communities to affirm their ties with one another and to celebrate their history. Over time, they built on those traditions and developed new ones in their new communities. And gradually, the holiday became a general North American one, rather than one that was only celebrated in Irish-American communities.

          North-American St-Patrick’s day is an odd holiday. Some elements of some versions of it are super offensive and should get ditched. But some elements of it are lovely. It’s the product of an interesting history. It’s as “real” as as legitimate as Irish versions of St-Patrick’s day might be.

          (None of which is to say that it’s OK to force someone who is Irish and thinks that this holiday has nothing to do with her to participate in it, or that it’s an acceptable excuse to harass, let alone pinch, coworkers).

        4. Kate*

          Irish-American is every bit as much a culture as “Irish” or “American”. For example my father is only a second generation American, my great grandparents on both sides of his family came over as adults from the countries they are from.

          We still maintain the tradition of eating a special food on a certain holiday, as well as a few others. The food we eat on that holiday isn’t “Authentic Old Country”, think store-bought, jarred, pre-made whatever, but it is as close as recent immigrants without the money to get a food that wasn’t available could get.

          If someone told my family we were “culturally appropriating” their country’s holiday and insulting them by eating our jarred pre-made version in honor of my great-grandparents we would be furious.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Nothing like being disowned by your heritage….But I do agree that the stereotyping is wrong-wrong-wrong.

            I will say different families teach different things. I am very much aware of how I am soooo of Northern European descent. A friend comes from a different background. We take turns marveling at what our families did and did not teach us.

      3. Kathleen Adams*

        There’s St. Patrick’s Day in Ireland and there’s St. Patrick’s Day in America, and in those two very different places, the same day has acquired different meanings. I mean, in the US, an awful lot of it is all about claiming your heritage as someone whose ancestors came from Ireland. Obviously they don’t have to worry about kind of thing in Ireland. :-)

        So no, it’s not cultural appropriation. It’s two different but related cultures who happen to celebrate on the same day.

        1. Anonymoose*

          That’s actually the concise bit of it, I think. I agree with this 100%. (ahem, and my last name is Sullivan, but with no irish blood that im aware of. Adoption: my St Paddy’s ‘get out of jail free card’ that keeps on giving!)

    10. Mazzy*

      Appropriation? Really? Your analogy isn’t the correct one. The correct one would be banning all national holidays unless you were born in said country, or thinking its inappropriate for non-US-born citizens to celebrate July 4th. People seriously need to stop overusing this word!

      I felt like I said this just last week – please stop recommending police as a first resort. I’ve had to use the police before for a few more serious crimes and they seriously do not deal with things like this. They would do the professional version of laugh you out of the station, mainly because there is no damage to fix or harm to compensate for. The police is not a good solution.

      1. Gaia*

        Yes. Appropriation because the majority of people who celebration in this manner are not of Irish heritage. Therefore they have appropriated the Irish-American culture and turned it into something stereotypical and offensive.

          1. Chinook*

            “So should we monitor for non-Italians at the feast of San Gennaro?”

            Only those who insist on using fake Italian accents, pinching those not dressed in Italian fashion and insist that everyone should kiss them because they are Italian for the day.

        2. AKJ*

          If only people with Irish heritage celebrated the holiday, we would have had extremely small parties in my area of the Upper Midwest, which was primarily settled by Germans and Scandinavians, and is about a hundred miles from the nearest city with significant Irish heritage.
          But of course, every bar in town was packed.

          (I’m one of those Irish-Americans who considers it stereotypical and offensive. But in order to avoid hearing “Well, you’re not *really* Irish” comments, I keep my mouth shut.)

        3. Rachael*

          From what I read, Irish-Americans started these traditions in order to bring awareness to Irish Americans because they were so poorly treated. I think that they did such a good job that everyone joined in and the stigma of “being Irish” no longer applied. The Irish Americans of the past would probably be pleased with what it has become.

      2. Brandy*

        I agree 100%. Call the police. This would be so far down on their list of priority’s, they’d never make it there. There are real crimes being committed that are much more then this. I might get very upset about being pinched but to call the police, come on.

        1. Mazzy*

          People forget the DA will be calling you trying to get you to fill out paperwork and to take a day off for court, sometimes that hassle isn’t worth it

    11. paul*

      I’m going to hone in your third paragraph:

      OP, people in your office were committing an act that is probably at least a misdemeanor. Repeatedly.

      What on earth is a surprise about this? I’m a pretty relaxed dude but if people start pinching me they’d get a warning to keep their hands to themselves followed by me raising hell.

    12. Elizabeth West*

      Wow, so many comments nobody will probably see this.

      In college, this was a drinking holiday. The most I do for it now is wear my emerald earrings. If I’m in an office that does have St. Patrick’s Day shenanigans, if there’s any reference to pinching (where did that come from anyway?), if I’m going to do it, I do an air pinch. I NEVER PUT MY HANDS ON THE PERSON.

    13. Anne (with an "e")*

      +1000

      I work at a school with pre-k through 12th grade students. Many people wore green to celebrate the holiday; however, several people did not. If a pre-k student knows that it is inappropriate to pinch someone, then you would think that an adult would realize as much.

      I remember the pinching being a thing when I was six or seven years old (1970, 1971). Since then I have never heard of anyone being pinched for not wearing green. Sure people joke that they’ll “pinch” you for not wearing green; but, no one actually takes it seriously.

      I strongly believe that the people who assaulted the employ should be reprimanded or, at least, told that their behavior was grossly inappropriate. I believe that the woman who resigned deserves an immediate apology. I would not hold this against her in any shape or form. I would also hope that she does not consult a lawyer.

      Can you imagine how people would react if we were pinching folks for not participating in certain religious activities? What would people do if a non-Christian did not want to participate in a Christmas themed activity? What would happen if we all started assaulting people who did not want to participate in Secret Santa for example?

  3. NotoriousMCG*

    I haven’t encountered the pinching thing on St Patrick’s day since I was in the 5th grade. How in the world did it become so widely acceptable in this person’s office?? So weird.

    1. Not The Droid You Are Looking For*

      My thoughts exactly.

      Would pinching a coworker be acceptable on a random Tuesday? No. Saying that something is in the holiday spirit does not make an unprofessional action okay.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Right — similar to how it wouldn’t be okay to randomly kiss a coworker who was standing under mistletoe at a holiday party. Having a connection to a holiday tradition doesn’t automatically make it appropriate for work.

        1. Gaia*

          I was trying to think of a similarly inappropriate thing to happen at work and that. That right there ^

        2. Drew*

          I’d argue that, given its associations, hanging mistletoe at an office party would be a bad idea to start with. But if someone does it anyway, yes, keep your lips to yourself.

          1. I Want to Tell You*

            When a coworker suggested hanging mistletoe one year, I gave her a hard NO for this exact reason. (And most of the unwanted kissing probably would have been directed toward me, because I’m the youngest by several years and also a woman.) She responded, “But it’s cute!”, and I told her it was inappropriate for work. She groused for a bit, but thankfully dropped the mistletoe idea.

            1. JS*

              Oh GAWD I can only imagine! While I think it would but cute at a company holiday party, in a clear designated area for couples, just to hang in the office is a BIG NO. I don’t work in HR but I imagine these kinds of potentials for sexual harassment issues would give them nightmares and be a huge red flag.

        3. sstabeler*

          Or at least, it’s not the mistletoe that makes it appropriate (if someone deliberately stands under mistletoe and even outright points out the mistletoe, then that is at least arguably enough to assume consent. However, at that point, the mistletoe has very little to do with it.)

    2. AcademiaNut*

      It’s like birthday bumps – something that was common as a kid, but I’d be shocked to be subject to it as an adult.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        Sometimes my dad still tries to play Punch Buggy.

        My dad IS really just a giant 9 year old with a credit card though.

        1. Kathlynn*

          I do more of a bump (rather than punch) buggy. It’s fun if you aren’t doing it hard enough to hurt. I still wouldn’t do it to a coworker.

        2. Kriss*

          ah, Punch Buggy. we had to rename it & we weren’t allowed to touch each other. you got 1 point for a VW bug, 2 points for a blue VW bug, 2 pts for a VW bus, & 3 pts for a blue VW bus. man, I miss those ugly old vans.

          1. Emi.*

            My family extended the rules to be as convoluted as we could keep track of, like 1/2 a point for pictures or toys (“baby buggy,” because they’re little), and added any unusual vehicles we felt like: 1 point for a Trabant, 1 point for that weird camo van on the way to school, and so on.

        4. Liane*

          My kids who are 19 and 21, still play it and enjoy it. *But* I taught them when they were little kids to just call it out, because punching, or just tapping, the driver can distract him/her at a bad time.

        5. Amy the Rev*

          ah, punch buggy! My sister and I play a version with the sagamore bridge over the cape cod canal- first one to spot it on a drive gets to punch the other and say “i see the bridge!”….I’m 27 and she’s 23…clearly we are very serious adults…

        6. Fafaflunkie*

          But that only counts with Old (pre 1990s) Beetles.

          And I call NO PUNCHBACKS!

          Still very inappropriate to do at work.

      2. JS*

        Ha! I still do that with my friends but we are drunk and its light hearted and consensual. Something that should NEVER take place in a work environment even if consensual because it sets a bad precedent for others who do not know better to get consent/have that type of relationship.

        1. Parenthetically*

          Yeah in a context where everyone is enthusiastically consenting to it, it’s silly and harmless. In a WORK context? Completely preposterous.

    3. Chris*

      Seriously! And, as I child I wanted to punch anyone who pinched me. Obviously, I wouldn’t do so, but I’d be completely incensed if someone pinched me at work.

      1. JessaB*

        A childhood of being bullied coupled with a lot of medical issues that cause mega pain when I’m startled, add in a hearing impairment (so I don’t know someone’s there,) and I go ballistic when people touch me and I don’t expect it. It’s seriously NOT GOOD. I’m one of the Deafies that are “get your hand in my line of sight, don’t tap my shoulder” (and we’re a very touch each other culture, but even my Deaf friends know better.) I have a friend who is probably the only non relative who can hug me because she knows not to get near my lower back uncontrollable startle reflex.

    4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I don’t think it’s even allowed in elementary schools anymore. When I was in high school, friends would certainly pinch other friends, but not totally random classmates. By the time my younger sister was in elementary school, pinching was forbidden because it fell under the school’s zero tolerance policy on violence. I’m gobsmacked that adults would think it’s ok to do.

      1. kb*

        I’m surprised coworkers felt like they could pinch a coworker they didn’t seem to be especially close with, but additionally taken aback that they felt it was normal to pinch her somewhere near her butt. Even if the coworker was aiming for her lower back, that’s a weird place to touch a colleague, even for this already odd tradition. Anytime I’ve gotten pinched for St. Paddy’s by anyone besides a SO, I was pinched on the arm, which is still weird and not really professional, but not that additional level of inappropriate.

        1. kb*

          To be clear: I think pinching anyone anywhere without consent is not okay, I just think the pinching of anywhere besides arms adds an additional level of inappropriateness.

          1. Gadfly*

            And he said he missed because she sat–to me that suggests the pinch went high because her body went lower. So, was he aiming for her thigh? In some ways that is worse than the butt.

            1. kb*

              It’s all just so out of bounds! Aiming for her thigh is extremely inappropriate too. It has actually never occurred to me to touch a coworker beyond a handshake or the awkward “light shoulder tap to get their attention because they have headphones in and they can’t hear me unless I were to shout” thing.

            2. Fiennes*

              To me that suggests the pincher was lying. Pinching requires you to touch, grab, and compress; it’s quick, but still, if you touch the wrong spot you can stop before pinching. IMO that guy (and I’ll bet a shiny nickel it was a guy) absolutely intended to pinch her butt.

        2. JS*

          If I was the coworker who accidentally pinched near the butt I would be MORTIFIED. I wouldnt be able to apologize enough, the fact that it seemed to be brushed off is insane.

          1. AnonAnalyst*

            I know! I am astounded that it seems that this incident has been written off by the coworker AND OP’s company as “oh, coworker didn’t intend to pinch her there. It was an accident because she was moving!” Just… what?

          2. Humble Schoolmarm*

            That part horrifies me too. I swing dance and it isn’t terribly uncommon for a catch to go awry and for there to be a bit of butt or chest brushing (grabbing is another story). Without exception, when this has happened, my partner has gone scarlet and apologized profusely, even though it was clearly both an accident and very casual contact (Not a pinch!). The fact that it was brushed off as no big deal by the pincher and the bystanders says a lot about the office culture and none of it is good.

    5. JamieG*

      I had people over Friday night, and some of them were doing the pinching thing. All well and good, but when they asked me where my green was I said “I’m not wearing any and none of you are allowed to touch me,” and – shockingly! – they all listened because we’re adults and I get to decide who touches me (and because they knew I’d kick them out of my house if they tried, probably).

      Like, if my drunk friends can understand to not do it at a social gathering, I’d hope that sober people would be able to figure it out at work.

      1. jordanjay29*

        I’ve always just suggested I’m wearing green in the one place that can’t be seen. I have maybe two green articles of clothing, and I’m not really inclined to make them work just to join a silly holiday tradition. I don’t look good in green (or orange or yellow) so I don’t wear it.

    6. Not Irish, Eats Soda Bread*

      OP, I think you should pay your assistance a severance as though you’d laid her off and apologize, too. And ixnay on the holiday celebrating at work, henceforth.

      In general I shrink from decoration of offices for holidays. There are so many holidays and there are so many ways for things to go wrong with the popular ones like St. Valentine’s Day and there is so much cultural hegemony there. Best not. Perhaps if people want to put something up at their cubes, but let’s not go overboard, guys.

      I grew up in Evacuation Day territory, and I had never heard of the pinching until the past few years. This year I saw several references. I wonder whether it got written up somewhere as a “tradition.” Ew, no matter what.

      The secular American St. Patrick’s traditions I’m familiar with are diddly-diddly music and worse (“Who Threw the Overalls in Mrs. Murphy’s Chowder”) on the radio for 24 hours, cardboard cutouts of shamrocks and suchlike decorations, and everyone eats soda bread and corned beef and cabbage and carrots. (And maybe colcannon potatoes, but probably boiled with the other stuff.)

      1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

        “Evacuation Day” is the official holiday name for St. Patrick’s Day in Suffolk County, Massachusetts, where it is a civic holiday. It officially celebrates the evacuation of British troops from Boston. Coincidentally on March 17.

        So we celebrate the evacuation with green beer, a parade, and corned beef and cabbage. Makes sense, right?

  4. Remarkable*

    1. You was wrong how you handle your workplace. It’s not like these are a bunch of friends at your home. They are employees that come to WORK. You should reach out to her and apologize and maybe offer her job back being she probably was still mad when you called her. Then had a meeting with everyone and say listen up. We will continue to celebrate holidays but if no one wants to participate that’s fine. I expect everyone to act accordingly to everyone that participates or not but mainly KEEP YOUR HANDS TO YOURSELF. Also It wouldn’t shock me if your assistance sued your company.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Agreed. She could maybe argue hostility on the basis of national origin/ethnicity, but it would be hard to prove that people harassed her because she’s Irish as opposed to harassing her because she refused to participate in an office theme day. And the pinching is too low-level for criminal or civil assault, and it’s not egregious enough to be sexual harassment.

        All that said, OP should know that the company and its employees are in the wrong, here, not the ex-assistant.

        1. paul*

          Strictly speaking I think it’d be simple assault (or battery–I forget which is the lower crime in my jurisdiction) but good luck actually getting cops to investigate such a small thing. Still baffling to me that they thought it was OK.

        2. Just Another Techie*

          I wonder if the pinching was also gendered. If the only people who get pinched are women (that has happened to me in multiple workplaces, only the young women get pinched, even if we’re decked head to toe in green), regardless of what colors the male employees are wearing, that’s grounds for sexual harassment or discrimination.

      2. Leah*

        She could sue for assault/offensive battery. Also, if more than one person is out pinching on St. Patrick’s Day I’m guessing there’s a larger pattern of inappropriate touching in that particular workplace as well.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I think speculating that there’s a larger pattern is a little out there. And of course there’s the whole “even if you could sue it wouldn’t be worth it” element re: civil battery/assault. But I think OP should focus on how to make it right (e.g., offer a severance? an apology? reprimand the pinchers?) instead of how to “discipline” the assistant for quitting without notice.

          1. Gadfly*

            Although it definitely would be an unflattering story for her to share about the company. And she has many options of how to do that.

            1. AJHall*

              “Ms X, why did you leave your last company?”
              “I’m afraid the bottom-pinching finally got to me.”

          2. Leah*

            Yeah, a lawsuit probably wouldn’t be worth her time but it’s still valid. But I do think that there’s probably a problem with personal boundaries in the office that OP should look into. And of course she should try to make things right with her assistant, with a decent reference being a bare minimum.

          3. Misc*

            It felt like we’re seeing the end of a pattern of issues, the bit where someone finally blows up and quits because X and Y won’t stop harassing her and she doesn’t feel like she’ll be believed if she goes to her boss.

            Even if this really is a one off, the entire letter sounds like the context is ripe for this kind of issue to be festering, so it’s simply more likely than not.

            1. neverjaunty*

              Exactly this.

              OP, you should probably take a good hard look at your office culture and how people have been acting toward your assistant in the past.

            2. Jesmlet*

              Yeah unless she was having a really rough day, I have a hard time believing this was the first and last straw for her. Odds are, there’s a pattern of inappropriate behavior and a pattern of inaction on someone’s part to address said behavior which is why she quit on the spot rather than bringing it up to you to help her out.

          4. Fiennes*

            I don’t know that there’s a larger pattern of inappropriate touching — but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to speculate that there’s a pattern of immature behavior & inappropriate responses by management. It’s tough to imagine this happening in an office with an appropriately professional culture.

        2. Gadfly*

          We don’t know if there is a larger pattern. But, given the extreme boundary ignoring that went on in OP’s letter, I think it might be worthwhile for the OP to step back and ask if there is a bigger problem of which this was simply the final straw. Maybe even, if in a position to do so, see if someone from the outside sees a bigger, more general problem. Because if this is the first issue, you hopefully can nip it in the bud. If there is a pattern, and you don’t dig it up by the roots, even if this time it isn’t a lawsuit it might be that the next time, or the time after, or the time after that could make the cut to be worthy of filing a suit. It is gambling to keep a bad office culture–you have to hope that even as boundaries are being ignored everyone remembers not to go too far.

        3. GreyjoyGardens*

          Even if there isn’t a larger pattern of outright unwanted touching, this smacks of a larger pattern of *some* kind of inappropriate workplace behavior. It just seems obvious to me – don’t pinch your coworkers, ever. Especially don’t pinch their butts! I wonder if boundaries are fuzzy or disregarded in general, and there is a lot of horseplay.

          Even if the pinched receptionist doesn’t have grounds for a lawsuit, that doesn’t mean that either: someone will egregiously cross the line in the future and there will be a lawsuit, or boundary-crossing behavior is rampant enough that the company will develop a bad reputation. I think this needs to be dealt with, not only for the sake of any future receptionists, but for the sake of the company’s reputation.

      3. Benjamin*

        Incorrect. Pinching somebody without permission is 100% assault. The assistant wouldn’t have trouble getting the perpetrators charged criminally and would also have a case against her employer for a hostile work environment.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          There’s no way this meets the elements for a hostile work environment claim. And I don’t really want to reopen a debate on whether it would be charged criminally, but it’s even less egregious than a prior post about a coworker kicking and punching another below the table. Most attorneys on that thread (and at least one police officer) thought that situation was unlikely to be criminally prosecuted, so unless OP works in a town with very little crime and a very bored police force and DA, it’s unlikely anyone would prosecute under the facts in this letter.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It’s really unlikely that this would result in criminal charges (find a prosecutor interested in spending limited resources bringing that case), and it’s absolutely not the case that this would qualify as hostile workplace in a legal sense. Please don’t make assertions like that without being able to point to facts to back them up; it’s unhelpful to give out bad legal information here. Thank you.

          1. Mookie*

            A Connecticut-based town council member was, quite prominently, charged with misdemeanor sexual assault this past January for pinching someone. From what I gather, the victim said her groin was pinched (the warrant for the arrest uses that phrase, while the affidavit identifies her “rear end” as the area touched). The official doesn’t deny the pinching, says it was a “jocular,” “playful gesture,” but I’m not sure if he disputes that gesture’s location.

            I agree that these incidents rarely result in thorough investigations, much less criminal charges.

            2. lokilaufeysanon*

              And the DA in Los Angeles didn’t proceed with charges against the wife of the drummer of the Red Hot Chili Peppers after she shook Scott Baio (I think, I am pretty sure) outside of a school. It wouldn’t have been worth their time.

            4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              Yeah, but that guy was a raging jackass and an elected official, and he stated a discriminatory intent before pinching the staff person (and had a long history of bad blood between them both). None of those dynamics appear present in the facts OP has provided.

              1. fposte*

                And it was during a heated argument, and he grabbed not her butt but her crotch. Crotch is srs bzns.

                1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  So true. And it’s so surreal that we’re discussing whether grabbing/pinching someone’s crotch is materially different from doing the same re: someone’s butt.

          2. Cyril Figgis*

            If it was part of a pattern, couldn’t butt-pinching establish a hostile work environment?

            1. MegaMoose, Esq*

              Yes, but it would have to be a pattern connected to a protected class. Hostile work environment is a legal theory allowing recovery for discrimination claims. It doesn’t have to do with people just generally being mean.

                1. Oryx*

                  But are they pinching her *because* she is a woman or are they pinching her and she just *happens to be* a woman.

                  One instance falls under protected class, the other one doesn’t.

                2. Emi.*

                  Not exactly–sex is a protected *categorization*, but neither category is more protected than the other. So they’d have to be pinching her because she’s a woman, and it doesn’t sound like that’s what’s happening.

                3. Naruto*

                  There are a lot of facts we don’t have, but I find it hard to believe that a woman got pinched *on the butt* at work and it wasn’t because she’s a woman.

                4. MegaMoose, Esq*

                  Even if they are pinching her because she’s a woman, which we don’t know, a single incident like this is almost certainly not enough to support a claim on its own. Since we don’t know that the pinch was related to her gender or that it’s part of a pattern of gender-based harassment, all we’ve got is wild speculation unrelated to the OP’s question.

                7. Naruto*

                  Maybe I’m biased because I’m a represent plaintiffs in complex civil litigation, but when I hear this account of what happened it raises a lot of red flags. I don’t know if she would ultimately win a lawsuit, but even without any additional facts (which seem likely), she was subject to a physical sexual assault, albeit a minor one. It strikes me as off to say there’s nothing more here than “wild speculation.”

                  My knee-jerk reaction is that damages are the bigger problem here. That’s actually part of why it’s important for the OP not to give a negative reference based on the events that occurred on Friday.

                8. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  It’s wild speculation because there is literally no basis for assuming gender played a role. It’s possible, and even likely, that there was a gendered dynamic, but absent any information that supports that, concluding otherwise is by definition speculation.

                  But perhaps more importantly, it’s in no way helpful to OP except to say “hey, take another look at the dynamics in your office because your ‘inappropriate-dar’ seems way off.”

                9. FormerLibrarian*

                  Naruto: even if this isn’t lawsuit worthy, might it qualify as constructive dismissal for an unemployment claim?

              2. Cyril Figgis*

                I know that “hostile work environment” is a legal term, but in the United States, sexual harassment is part of that. Everyone is part of many protected classes (gender, race, national origin, etc). Pinching someone’s butt can certainly qualify as sexual harassment.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  But a single pinch on St. Patrick’s that landed “near” her butt and wasn’t intended to be there isn’t likely to reach the legal bar.

                2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  You can have a hostile work environment based on any protected class identity, but as Alison noted, a single pinch usually doesn’t rise to the level of egregiousness needed to make out a hostile work environment claim (hostile work environment claims are much harder to establish, as a legal matter, than an “individual act of discrimination” sexual harassment claim). Even a claim regarding an individual act of sexual harassment has to be tied to an adverse employment action, and there has to be a relationship between the person’s identity, the harassment, and the adverse action. In this case, there’s no indication that the assistant was pinched for being a woman or being Irish—OP contends she was pinched for failing to “celebrate” by wearing green, which has no relationship to a protected class.

        3. Katie the Fed*

          “Hostile work environment” is one of the most abused terms in the commentariat.

          It may be hostile, but to rise to the level of a lawsuit-worthy hostile environment it has to be specifically due to a protected category (sex, race, gender, etc) and seriously egregious behavior.

            1. MegaMoose, Esq*

              Unfortunately, the “little bit of knowledge” here is often just a layperson’s understanding of the word “hostile.”

          2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Agreed. Both that term and any legal term relating to any employment discrimination claim. Also “file a police report.” Basically 90% of the terms used to refer to legal processes tend to be misused or inapplicable, and when it’s pointed out, people respond with “here’s a story I googled that backs up my opinions about what I think these legal terms mean regardless of whether it’s relevant, accurate or common.”

      4. Alton*

        Technically, this could probably fall under battery in tort law. The assistant could probably try to sue if she really, really wanted to. It’s just unlikely that it would be worth her time and money to do so.

      5. Electric Hedgehog*

        Hostile workplace environment based off of the employee’s national origin (a protected class)? I guess it would depend on how badly the company failed to take her Saint Patrick’s uncomfortableness into account…

        1. MegaMoose, Esq*

          Hostile work environment generally can’t be based on isolated events, though, so even if the pinching only happened because she was Irish, it still wouldn’t support a claim.

          1. Electric Hedgehog*

            If it was egregious enough, it would qualify. But I agree that this doesn’t seem to hit that threshold unless there was more going on than we know about.

      6. Noah*

        If the employee sees this column, it would certainly help her case. Her manager see employee as being in the wrong to quit over an assault.

    2. Office Plant*

      I think pinching counts as assault, at least in some states. And wouldn’t it be harassment?

      Btw, this is the first time I’ve heard of St Patricks Day pinching. Are you supposed to pinch people who aren’t wearing green?

      1. many bells down*

        Yes, and if you pinch someone who IS wearing green, then the pinchee gets to punch you in the arm. I usually just claimed my underwear was green, in school.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Agreed (and agreed that punching, or a particularly vicious counter-pinch, was considered “appropriate retribution” for mistakenly pinching someone who was indeed wearing green).

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Also, pinching counts as civil battery (or assault, depending on how your state defines those torts), and it might meet the definition of criminal battery, but is unlikely to be prosecuted. Based on OP’s description, it doesn’t sound like harassment in the employment discrimination sense.

      3. tigerStripes*

        I remember the pinching stuff in grade school, a little bit, but not after that! I keep hoping that both pinchers were given a serious talking to at the least, but it sounds like the first one wasn’t. Pinching adults who don’t want to be pinched is not OK, especially at work.

    3. Kbug*

      I think she could at least file a police report for pinching her butt. Might not go anywhere, but it could, and especially since OP seems to want to punish her for you know, not accepting being assaulted, I’d consider it if I was her.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I’m having trouble imagining the police in any jurisdiction I’ve ever lived in agreeing to take a report of pinching on St. Patrick’s Day.

        People shouldn’t be pinching each other. But it’s really not a police matter.

      2. Brett*

        They might take the report, but they won’t seek charges and the prosecutor would have full latitude to dismiss misdemeanor and petty charges and would in this case. (No prosecutor wants to be the person who prosecuted someone for a pinch on St Patrick’s Day.)
        Some states let you prosecute your own misdemeanor or petty charges. But, again, you don’t want to be the person who prosecuted someone for a pinch on St Patrick’s Day.

  5. Wendy Darling*

    My significant other is Irish as in he lived in Ireland until he was an adult, and he thinks the way Americans celebrate St Patrick’s Day is *ridiculous*. He’s not offended (he can’t really be bothered to be offended) but he does think it’s deeply silly and he generally doesn’t participate.

    If someone pinched me at work I would be incandescent with rage. Yelling at people for hurting her (!) repeatedly (!!) at work (!!!) seems kiiiiiind of like a not-ideal-but-totally-understandable reaction to me. Like, if she had reflexively smacked the crap out of someone I wouldn’t be that surprised, but she managed to not descend to physical violence despite repeated minor assaults.

    1. many bells down*

      I almost smacked a total stranger in the grocery store one year, because after 10 seconds of casual conversation he said “heeeyyy you’re not wearing green!” and reached out a hand. Fortunately my “active” bitch face deterred him.

      1. Gaia*

        I am not a violent person but I would straight lose my cool on someone for pinching me in the grocery store (or anywhere, actually)

        2. dragonzflame*

          Wait, what? So in America, if you don’t wear green on St Patrick’s Day, strangers get to pinch you? To what purpose?

          1. Kheldarson*

            It’s a kid’s tradition. Lord knows how it started, but every kid knows it. By middle school, you’re typically down to only pinching your friend group/folks you know wouldn’t mind. I think the last time I pinched someone for not wearing green was… Walmart? Right after college. And it was some cashier friends of mine. Part of the joke was that we had to be more creative with our green since Walmart dress code was blue shirts and khakis at the time.

            1. Naruto*

              “Every kid knows it” is not true. I went to public school in the northeast US, I’m in my mid-thirties, and this is the first I’ve ever heard of this “tradition.”

              I’m not saying it’s not a tradition among children, or even that it’s not common, but it’s not helpful to exaggerate hyperbolically like that.

              1. dappertea*

                I think it might be more of a Midwest thing? Definitely not a universally known tradition. I knew about it when I was growing up in the Midwest (and got pinched a few times), and I was relieved to find out no one down South seemed to know about it or do it when I moved there.

              2. bandmom*

                I grew up in the south (SC), and it was a “thing” here. Still is. My husband (from CA) takes quite a bit of delight in pinching our kids if they forget to wear green on St. Patricks!

              3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                No, it’s pretty common in the Pacific NW, West coast, southwest, intermountain west, south, and midwest (and parts of the northeast). So while it may not be universal, I think it’s accurately described as a widespread practice. Kheldarson isn’t being hyperbolic.

          2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            As a practical matter, strangers don’t usually pinch you—it’s usually a common practice among elementary schoolchildren who at least know one another, even if they’re not friends. But adults certainly aren’t supposed to do it, regardless whether they’re strangers or acquaintances. I don’t think there’s a real purpose to the pinching other than to harass you for failing to “celebrate” by wearing something green.

        3. Gadfly*

          Yeah. I wear snakes instead of green on 3/17 and if people suggest pinching I explain that means I get to bite them for being snakeless.

          1. Just Jess*

            LOL! That’s right, St. Patrick drove the snakes from Ireland. The, er, ice snakes???

          2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            I know you don’t mean live snakes, but I’m picturing you with live snakes draped around your neck. That would certainly deter any pinching!

            1. Halpful*

              ha, I assumed live snakes – I didn’t even realise I’d taken that too literally. I was thinking of the times I’ve seen a guy on the bus wearing a snake :) (they were always well-behaved snakes, and sometimes got nearly as much attention as a puppy would)

      2. Wendy Darling*

        Ugh, what is WITH people? I hate being touched by strangers (and my startle reflex is a mean right hook, to my sorrow).

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          I heard of someone deliberately developing that as an “uncontrollable” response to being tickled. Their older siblings finally stopped.

          1. Wendy Darling*

            My startle-punch thing is unintentional and sometimes turns out poorly for me, but I gotta say it did break people of sneaking up behind me when I was younger.

    2. tink*

      I don’t think I would’ve been able to reflexively stop myself of yelling and smacking the hand of someone that pinched me because I wasn’t wearing the right color. Pinching hurts, it leaves horrid bruising that takes forever to go away, and it’s really easy for someone to slip or “slip” and pinch someone in a really inappropriate spot. Leave that crap out of the workplace.

    3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I honestly would have punched the pinchers—it’s an automatic reaction I developed in middle school in response to St. Patrick’s Day pinching. Frankly, I’m amazed she was able to keep it limited to yelling.

      1. Spoonie*

        I would have had a hard time not reacting in some manner (cursing, smacking, slapping, punching, etc.) if I got pinched, because wtf, we’re adults in our workplace. And also, I’m heavily Scottish. I wear blue, not green.

        I didn’t see a soul in my office wear green in any way that stood out to me or mention St. Patrick’s Day — but we also had a major deadline on Friday.

        1. VroomVroom*

          I wore hunter green work slacks, that I often wear on other days so nothing out of the ordinary.
          But TBH most people didn’t see them as I was sitting at my desk most of the day.

        2. MegaMoose, Esq*

          The only mention of the holiday in my office was asking a couple of people if they were going out drinking as they were leaving, and some amusing discussion of Irish dance (apparently some kids were Riverdancing it up in the lobby). Pinching was definitely not on the menu.

        3. Kyoki*

          My office was encouraged to wear green and we did have a green-themed potluck, but there was definitely no pinching. I grew up in a large Midwest city and I have never heard of this pinching tradition before. It’s wildly inappropriate in any kind of work setting.

    4. Allison*

      Unfortunately it’s not uncommon for women to get in trouble for yelling, regardless of why they were yelling or how they were being treated up until that point.

      I remember being at an anime convention, wearing a ballerina outfit (long story, and no it wasn’t Princess Tutu), and this random guy at the hotel kept telling me to do a plie for him. I was most certainly not doing that, but he kept at it, following me to the elevators and kept insisting I “do a plie” for him, until I finally whirled around and went “GO F*** YOURSELF!” and then everyone around me went “woooaaah, that’s not good con talk . . .” He was harassing me, but I was the one being rude.

      (yes, the con had a harassment policy, they had staff who could have dealt with him, I could have reported him, it wasn’t acceptable, I know all of this, but none of that negate the fact that it happened and no one supported me in the moment)

      I’ve been reminded, many times in my adult life, that nice ladies don’t yell. Doesn’t matter why you’re angry, or upset, or frustrated, you must be graceful in dealing with tough situations. If you yell, there are consequences. Your friends may abandon you, your boyfriend may break up with you, you may get fired, or ostracized at work, or the man you’re trying to stand up to may get violent. And no one will sympathize; it was your fault, because you yelled.

      1. go orange!*

        yeppers
        Spent too much time being the one in trouble because I spoke out against being pinched/bra-strapped/touched/whatever inappropriate behaviour that was being done to me because I was “making a fuss out of nothing” and “it’s all in fun” and the ever popular “boys will be boys”. It made me into a shy wall-flower that tries to fade away & not do anything to make me a target.

        You must be carefully taught so you don’t make a fuss about “such little fun things”.

      2. Zombii*

        Solidarity.

        It’s a cruel, cruel joke that one of the first things they teach in self defense classes is to make a lot of noise, because attackers know women are conditioned to be quiet and they exploit that trait—and then look what happens when you tell a Perfectly Nice Guy Who Didn’t Do Anything To You™* that you’re not interested “too loudly.”

        ————-
        *except prioritize his version of How This Should Work over your clearly-stated boundaries

  6. Kristine*

    Sounds like OP #1’s assistant got to her Bitch Eating Crackers moment in that meeting. While rage quitting was a more extreme reaction than most people would have, I sympathize with her and understand why she did it.

    OP #1, please don’t jeopardize this poor woman’s future job prospects by declining to act as a reference. She was being harassed at work and quit because of it. Help her move on.

    1. Wendy Darling*

      The fact that they think pinching in the workplace is totally appropriate and are shocked that the assistant yelled over it makes me wonder if they’re inappropriate and unprofessional in other ways also and this was the last straw for the assistant.

      I was treated poorly in general at my last job and I would have ragequit if that scenario had happened to me. Pinching on top of everything else would just be too damned much.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Agreed. I’m kind of astounded that the takeaway was “she was unprofessional” as opposed to “people were wildly out of line to an extent that merits disciplinary action.”

      2. LN*

        Yeah, it’s hard to believe this is an isolated incident if everyone in the office, including management, found this scenario to be totally okay.

        1. Newby*

          That’s what I was thinking. This is so obviously over the line and yet everyone at the office thinks it is ok. IF they think this is ok, there have probably been other incidents as well that the LW thinks are perfectly fine.

          1. Naruto*

            Yeah, I think there has to be a pattern of inappropriate conduct and workplace norms. Otherwise people would have been on her side!

      3. blackcat*

        Yeah, my guess is she’s been treated poorly before. I would not tolerate being *pinched on the butt* and having everyone say that wasn’t a big deal, mostly because of the second part.

        And, like the person above, I really don’t think the butt pinch was accidental. On the chance that it was if it was, it was intended to he a thigh pinch, which is just as inappropriate.

        1. AndersonDarling*

          Yep, I’d guess that the assistant was becoming more and more aware that she was working with a bunch of jerks/babies/you-fill-in-the-blank/fools and it was the last straw. Since the OP couldn’t comprehend why someone would quit under these circumstances, I’m guessing this was a cultural mismatch.
          When interviewing her replacement, be sure to ask how the candidate feels about pinching and being pinched. I’m not trying to be snarky, but if you want someone to accept that in their workplace, you had better ask up front.

          1. Kyoki*

            I would love to read a letter submitted by the employee. “Dear Allison, today I quit my job in a rage because I was pinched twice for not wearing green on St. Patricks’ Day. Was I out of line or was my action justified? How do I address the quitting in future interviews?”

          2. Zombii*

            >When interviewing her replacement, be sure to ask how the candidate feels about pinching and being pinched.

            No need to go that far, but please make sure to tell candidates “we work hard and play hard,” “our office is like a family,” and/or other clearly-decipherable phrases so the right people can self-select out.

      4. GreyjoyGardens*

        That was my guess, too. Actually pinching your coworkers is so out of line that I imagine a lot of unprofessional behavior and boundary crossing goes on there, too.

        1. Venus Supreme*

          Agreed. Hopefully OP will take this employee’s abrupt quitting as an opportunity to reflect on how some of these norms are problematic and (most importantly) make changes. The last thing OP wants is to continue this pattern.

          (Also, for the record, I’m half-Irish and that side of my family is super-duper, intensely Irish and I’ve never heard of the pinching thing until this year. What gives, people?!)

      5. NotoriousMCG*

        In my brain upon hearing the way he described the celebration and the enthusiasm everyone was going forward with it (as well as his instinct that she was the one who was out of line), it sounded to me as though this office probably has a large number of people who are annoying and immature in general. If I’d been the assistant and was disliking my coworkers anyway, then proactively told people that I wouldn’t be participating in an office festivity because I found it offensive/distasteful, and THEN spent the day getting pinched (near the butt!!) I probably would’ve rage-quit too. I may have rage-ranted at the second pincher for a while longer first, but that’s just me.

        1. Zombii*

          >it sounded to me as though this office probably has a large number of people who are annoying and immature in general.

          This. Why does management so often not consider this a problem to be dealt with directly?

          I was interviewing for a sales job once and the interviewer said “What this store needs is kind of an Office Mom, to make sure the guys clean the place up and keep things organized.” (Are you cringing? I cringed a lot during that interview.) Should have run like hell. Didn’t. Lasted 8 days—quit from burnout due to 11-hour days with no foreseeable days off; they were so understaffed, they didn’t care about the overtime.

      6. Paula, with Two Kids*

        I think the fact that the OP believes the very fact that the pinchee quit without notice means she deserves no reference is quite indicative of the toxicity. Perhaps one of those workplaces where when people leave it’s seen as a sign of disloyalty.

        1. JessaB*

          Yeh, it’s not like the assistant walked out with no REASON to, as well as no notice. It does strike me as weird. On the other hand it could be the knee jerk reaction to “quit unannounced, get no notice,” without actually sitting down and thinking about WHY

  7. Former Computer Professional*

    #1 bothers me greatly. I’ve never heard of this pinching thing but it sounds rather childish.

    I appreciate that some people may be used to this “joke” but I think it is completely inappropriate in the work place, no different from any other unwarranted or unwanted contact. If my coworkers started mocking my culture and then assaulting me, I’d walk out, too.

    1. Gaia*

      It is exactly childish in that it is done by children in school. Not adults. Except, it seems, in this office.

      2. Former Computer Professional*

        I have lived in the US my entire life and have never heard of this pinching thing.

    1. TeacherNerd*

      Fellow Irish person here. I never knew that the pinching thing was a thing, either. (There was a scene of Bart Simpson being pinched on the Simpsons in one episode where he wasn’t wearing green on St. Patrick’s Day but I had no idea that people actually did this.)

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      It’s an American elementary school playground tradition, and it’s super annoying.

    3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      It’s a tradition among American school children. You can’t go around pinching people willy nilly—they only get pinched if they’ve failed to wear “something green” that day. But it’s ridiculous, and it certainly has no place in the office.

    4. Thlayli*

      I’m Irish, I only knew of it from the Simpsons, and if someone pinched me at work I would punch them in the face as hard as I could.

      1. Thlayli*

        Or at least, I like to think I would. Maybe in the moment I wouldn’t have the guts, but in my head I would be kicking serious ass and if I didn’t punch them I would definitely do something about it like make a sexual harassment complaint.

      2. Thlayli*

        Well i might not have the guts to do that in real life, but I like to think that’s what I’d do. At the very least I’d make a serious complaint.

          1. Thlayli*

            Hazel is well aware of my strengths and weaknesses. He knows the ability to take abuse with a smile is not one of my strengths. thats how I left the Threarah and joined Hazel in the first place after all!

    5. blackcat*

      Intriguingly, the variant I learned as a child said that redheads (who are obviously Irish, amirite?!) are exempt from the pinching rule.

      I relied on this as a child, and found that it was generally respected.

      1. TL -*

        And yet I got zero respect for having green eyes. Sigh.
        It’s a school yard thing, like punch buggy or the license plate game or any other game that kids have invented to hit each other. You can generally opt out and my school had a school admin that would loudly kiss the younger kids on the cheek or head if they weren’t wearing green; the teachers didn’t pinch but the kids did on the playground (just not hard enough to get in trouble for!)

        1. CM*

          I’d much rather get pinched than kissed!

          But I agree with other commenters who said they suspect this is not the only thing that offended the OP’s ex-employee about the workplace. Walking out is a pretty extreme reaction to two pinches and an annoying St. Patrick’s Day celebration. My guess is that what happened Friday was the last straw for the ex-employee.

  9. IrishGirl*

    Background info – I’m Irish, lived there for over 20 years and now live in Boston, a city with a lot of Irish people and Irish-Americans.

    Most of the American St Patrick’s Day celebrations I’m a bit ‘meh’ about. I enjoy the day, the parade and going out; it does feel a little caricature like but doesn’t particularly bother me. So I probably wouldn’t have joined in with the office festivities but wouldn’t have necessarily objected to their being held.

    I have never heard of St Patrick’s Day pinching. If someone had done that to me, my instinctive reaction would probably either have been a barrage of swearing or hitting whoever had pinched me. If someone had tried to tell me I didn’t understand this was a St Patrick’s Day tradition … I’d probably still be in disbelief. But echoing everyone from above, the second time it happened I’d also have quit.

    1. Wendy Darling*

      The thing that offends me most about American St Patrick’s Day celebrations is green-dyed marbled rye bread. It looks diseased. And revolting. And yet my local grocery store insists on putting it out there proudly every year.

      Green bagels are a close second. Yuck.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I find all of that kind of gross (b/c it looks moldy), but my pet peeve is dyeing rivers green.

          1. LBK*

            To my knowledge it’s only in Chicago – we don’t dye the Charles here in Boston, and I think we’re pretty much the pinnacle of Irish-American cities.

          5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Oh they do it lots of places. They sometimes dye minor rivers in Connecticut green, and they dye the Schuylkill (although they may have stopped?), and Ohio definitely dyes the Dublin River green. I think they used to dye the creeks/rivers in California until there was pushback.

        2. JHS*

          Hilariously, they did try to do that with the Liffey here in Dublin one year, but clearly hadn’t gotten enough dye, because there was one sad green patch on the water for about half an hour, and that was it…

          For me it’s the green shakes at fast food places. I’ve tried them out of curiosity, and they are vile…

          1. Wendy Darling*

            You’d have to put a lot of dye in the Liffey, that thing’s fairly greenish brownish and opaque already last I saw it…

      2. Gadfly*

        I’ve a dear friend who is Irish and Rom who had the misfortune to be born on the 17th of March. He now despises mint with a passion because he always seems to be given green mint something (cake, frosting, brownie, pie…) for his birthday. Usually bad extra fake mint. Which is pretty revolting.

      3. Falling Diphthong*

        Green food–but it CANNOT be one of the dozens of green vegetables, you have to dye something that’s normally brown to a sickly swamp color–is one of the more bizarre manifestations of American exceptionalism.

      4. Hankie Enlightenment (formerly Sarahnova)*

        So they’re not even dyeing soda bread green…? But breadstuffs that originate from nowhere near Ireland? Okay, now I’m officially confused.

        1. Descended from Irish Immigrants*

          That ties back to the Irish-American traditions. Irish immigrants in the US lived very close to Jewish communities because they both were seen as having similar not-white scummy status, so there’s a lot of Jewish influence in Irish-American food traditions. The food dye is dumb, but the bread choice is not confusing of you’re familiar with Irish-American history.

          2. Turanga Leela*

            My family is Irish on one side and Jewish on the other, and I had no idea about this cultural overlap. This makes me incredibly happy.

            1. fposte*

              Somebody downthread uses the phrase “St. Patrick’s mishigas,” which I thought was delightful.

      5. Venus Supreme*

        Every year in primary school we got green bagels. I lived for green bagels– I loved them so much! Haha. That’s what we did for St. Paddy’s instead of pinching people growing up.

      6. Not Irish, Eats Soda Bread*

        The only American culinary tradition worth going for around St. Patrick’s Day is Shamrock Shakes.

    2. Turanga Leela*

      I’m an American of Irish descent, and I’ve never encountered the pinching thing in person either. I’ve heard of it before, but I didn’t grow up with it, and I’d be angry if someone did it to me.

      I don’t find the holiday offensive either, but my primary association with St Patrick’s Day is the drunks on the NYC subway. Avoid the subway on St Paddy’s Day, y’all. The risk of vomit is high. (Same goes for New Year’s Eve, Halloween, and SantaCon.)

      On the flip side, I like shamrocks and green bagels.

      2. Glassheart*

        Thank you for the advice, in case I am ever in NYC on St. Patrick’s. I hear all of your comments in Leela’s voice, which somehow makes the advice sound even more level-headed. (Am I the only person who does this?)

        I remember the tradition from when I was a kid but – yeah, I can’t imagine it ever being mildly appropriate in a workplace. NOPE!

      3. Isabel C.*

        Also true in Boston. I Got Into It with two young men on the commuter rail yesterday: not puking, but loudly hassling people and complaining about how this was the “boring train”. I took their picture, and am now trying to find a place to post it where it might get back to family/employers/future dates.

        People: don’t care what day it is, if you can’t have a goddamn indoor voice and keep your hands to yourself, you should not be in public without supervision.

    3. Katy*

      I think it is a not-East-Coast phenomenon, as I grew up in an Irish parish in Queens, and we never pinched. The very idea!

      1. Jillociraptor*

        I grew up in the midwest, and I definitely knew about the pinching tradition, but I don’t recall anyone ever actually doing it.

        1. fposte*

          That’s where we were–we all knew about this phenomenon, but you wouldn’t actually do it to anybody. It was sort of the St. Patrick’s Day equivalent of coal in the stocking.

          1. Emi.*

            This is a great analogy! In my experience, everyone knows about it, but no one actually does it.

        2. SimonTheGreyWarden*

          Grew up in St. Louis, went to Catholic school and we had pretty strict uniform requirements. We could maybe wear green earrings for St Patrick’s day, and boys could get away with black socks with shamrocks on them. However, I can still remember people saying “you’ll be pinched if you don’t wear green” even though I don’t actually remember it happening.

        3. Anne (with an "e")*

          I grew up in Georgia. It was definitely a thing down here, but only for six and seven year old children. My ancestors arrived in North Carolina from Ireland in the 1700’s. We were always very proud of our Irish roots and did/do wear green on March 17th. However, none in my family ever pinched anyone that I can remember or that I am aware of.

      2. kewlm0m*

        +1. Also from the East Coast and of Irish descent and never heard of the pinching thing either.

      4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Grew up in Rhode Island with a dip in Boston, and yeah, we didn’t pinch there. Out in the Midwest, and down in the mid-atlantic states, though? Ohhh yeah, it happens.

        2. Chinook*

          Hearing where the pinching does and doesn’t happen, I am wondering if the pattern is that, when there are a large number of Irish descendants, nobody does that but, when there are few people who can claim to be Irish, the tradition appears. If that holds true, it makes me wonder if there is some anti-Irish sentiment in the origins of this tradition (maybe because a lot of Irish didn’t wear green or no one told them about this tradition when they arrived, so it is easy to spot and torment them on their major day of celebration?)

      5. LBK*

        Likewise, grew up and have lived in New England pretty much my whole life, never heard of this before.

    4. Lady Blerd*

      I have always wondered of Irish folks see St Patrick’s day celebrations and the way they are always portrayed as drunks in pop culture. This letter tells me answers my suspicions although I understand that is how the employee herself saw it. And I am not surprised that she is dismissed as the party pooper when she objected.

      1. Chinook*

        As a child of an Irishman, I definitely see the Irish portrayed as drunks even though a)the most I ever saw my Irish family drink was one or two glasses of sherry and b)the Ireland that most immigrants left was a poor country where most people either couldn’t afford to drink enough to get drunk regularly and, if they did so, it was to escape from their horrible poverty. Basically, I never saw the reality this stereotype was based on and see it for the hate propaganda it was probably created for that ranks right up there with “drunk, lazy Indian.”

    5. Anon for this*

      Not Irish, but I have lived in NE Ohio for 20 years, have two grown children who went through preschool and K-12 here, and I had to google “St. Patrick’s Day pinching”. Never heard of it! In a fight or flight situation, I tend to lean towards flight, so if a coworker or a stranger did this to me, I’d probably run away in some fashion. But I’d be shocked and appalled. “She didn’t understand” that a coworker physically assaulting her is an okay thing, because St. Patricks? No kidding! I wouldn’t understand it either.

  10. Dina*

    On OP #1 – if your assistant has a history of trauma, particularly due to assault (sexual or otherwise), having random coworkers pinch her could be extremely triggering. That’s in addition to what everyone else is saying.

    1. A Signer*

      +1. If this had happened to me, my reaction wouldn’t be much different from this assistant. It’s obviously okay to object to physical assault in the workplace and I’m not trying to ascribe a reason to explain the assistant’s reaction, but for me personally I’d probably flip out.

    2. MamaSarah*

      This is a pretty egregious violation of personal space, regardless of personal triggers.

    3. LN*

      Yes, this. Being pinched is a minor annoyance for some people, but not for everyone. I have chronic pain/fibro/etc issues, and even being lightly pinched in certain really innocuous-seeming areas (like upper arms, shoulders, etc) causes me severe, throbbing pain that lasts for 10+ minutes. A friendly shoulder-poke or accidentally bumping against the car door is something I learn to deal with, but I really, REALLY don’t need any more pain injected into my life. You really have no idea what people are dealing with, so like…don’t pinch them. Pretty simple concept.

      1. No day but today*

        I would FREAK OUT if someone tried to pinch me. An accidental bump from someone’s elbow causes me pain and bruising. My husband once tapped my thigh during a conversation where we were both laughing and left a bruise there the size of his fist. He was horrified because it honestly looked like I’d been beaten and it was literally a light tap. Pinches? I’d be in agony… to the point where I would cry and have to leave for the day and be left with a bruise the size of an apple. In high school a jerk I hated used to poke and pinch me because it made me cry. He thought I was just “sensitive” and since he always poked my back or sides there was never any visible proof. He did pinch my upper arm once and I, of course, bruised. I wore short sleeves in the middle of winter for 10 days straight to show off the nasty, grapefruit sized bruise he left with his pinch and made a point to show every person (student, teacher and admin) I encountered with a “hey, see what Jared did to me?” He never poked or pinched me after that. Nobody did. :)
        One of my life Motto’s is “DON’T TOUCH OTHER PEOPLE UNLESS YOU’RE INVITED TO!”

        1. Wendy Darling*

          Oh god the time my dad was on blood thinners. You know how sometimes people will kind of thwap the person they’re talking to on the shoulder like “oh, you!”? I did that to my dad after he made a particularly bad pun, which is a totally normal interaction for us, and it looked like I’d hit him with a baseball bat. I can’t imagine if someone had pinched him.

  11. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

    OP1: I’d likely quit as well, or at the very least have a huge meeting with HR about physical assault for this. And yes, the Americanized version of St Patrick’s day is seriously offensive. It’s right up there with Cinco de Mayo. I have a child in elementary school that I very specifically taught NOT to pinch. I encouraged him and his classmates to “tag” rather than pinch.

    Please offer your former assistant an apology. A sincere apology. You probably need to work with HR on how to fix this issue in your team.

    2. TL -*

      So I have an Irish last name and I one time decided to trace that side of the family back. I got to the 1850s, and Kentucky, before I stopped. Still have no idea when the Irish person came over. My point is, the Irish have been in the USA for a long, long time (relative to the age of the country) and the integration of St. Patty’s day is way more complicated than “we saw a thing we liked and had a tenuous connection to and took it.”
      Same for Cinco de Mayo. Mexicans have also been in this country for a long, long time – longer than some heavily Latino parts of our country have been parts of our country.

      1. Kriss*

        a friend with the last name of Clooney traced her family & discovered that the last name was actually Cluney (French not Irish). The name was changed by immigration when they entered the country.

        2. knitting fiend*

          Not to be too contrary, but there’s no documented case of immigration officials changing names ~ it’s pretty much a myth. The officials would have been working from lists generated at the port of origin and didn’t actually write names down.

          And the Clooney/Cluney spelling ~ well within standard variation for pre-20th century records….. I spend much of my work day dealing with such matters.

          1. Rachael*

            My family goes back to the 1600s on both sides and I learned that people within the same family spelled their last names differently. You could have brothers who use completely different vowels. It was only later in the family history when there was consensus on how to spell the names. It has made genealogy quite challenging sometimes, lol.

            1. tigerStripes*

              There’s a last name in my family tree that gets spelled all sorts of different ways on official documents. I’ve heard that isn’t uncommon.

              1. Rachael*

                It is very common AND just to give you a tip: some people go by a “nickname” that in the present day makes absolutely no sense. “Nancy” seems to be a common nickname when the woman’s name was “Ann” (in the 1700s) and “Polly” when the woman’s name was “Mary”. There are multiple instances in my family. So confusing!

          2. Just Me and My $0.02*

            My family’s name was indeed anglicized at Ellis Island. The Hungarian surname was apparently too difficult and their paperwork shows a distinctive change to remove accented vowels and soften harder consonants. I know what the real version is in Hungary from learning the language in college.

            Now, that’s not to say the immigration agents weren’t given an official version to change to, just refuting that names weren’t changed.

            1. knitting fiend*

              Been a busy day, so late following up…. but just in case ~ family name and immigration date? Dozens (if not hundreds) of genealogists and historians have looked for a case where an immigration official actually changed a name at Ellis Island and haven’t found one :-( so if you have, I’d love a reference ;-)

      2. many bells down*

        My family had always claimed we have ancestors from every part of the British Isles *except* Ireland. This year, my aunt did one of those DNA tests and it turns out we’re actually significantly Irish. And we also had ancestors on the Mayflower, so the Irish were here from the start, apparently!

        1. StrikingFalcon*

          Those DNA tests don’t actually mean much, by the way. You can’t really distill a person’s genetics into what percentages of their ancestors came from certain places of origin to start with, but the groupings I’ve seen those places make don’t even match known patterns of genetic diversity. Add in their refusal to provide any information about *how* they distinguish those groups, and they don’t amount to much more than a scam. I wouldn’t rewrite your family history based on anything they show (I’m also sincerely hoping you know you had ancestors on the Mayflower through other means, because that’s a particularly egregious lie if they’re telling people that based on genetic data – that’s completely unknowable genetically).

          1. fposte*

            23andme used to set it up nicely, where the more specific the findings on DNA origin they provided, the less certainty it was classified as having.

          2. SusanIvanova*

            I find those ads where people *do* rewrite their family history annoying – you “married an Italian” and that’s still true, no matter what shenanigans their great-great-grandparents got up to.

            Except the black lady trying to find out which part of Africa her family came from, since she doesn’t have any family stories to go by.

          3. Gadfly*

            There are quite a few groups of people who they don’t have enough information on to do much. For example, Native Americans. Many of the tribes have been opposed to DNA testing because of the ways it could be used. Which leads to results like people who were born on a reservation, to parents and grandparents who were born there, getting back results from 23 and me of not being at all Native American (I know 2 people that happened to.)

            1. Gadfly*

              Another friend has issues because she is Bengali, and they have almost no info from there.

          4. many bells down*

            My grandmother is an emeritus DAR chapter head, so our genealogy has been thoroughly researched. Only the presumption of Irishness is coming from the DNA test.

          5. tigerStripes*

            ancestry.com has even said that this testing is about what you specifically inherited, so a person and his/her full siblings will inherit different percentages.

  12. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I’m second-guessing myself for not making #1 its own post. I’m thinking about whether there’s a way for me to separate it now without being weird since I think it’s going to draw a disproportionate share of comments.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I agree—if you move it into it’s own post right now, it can probably be salvaged.

      2. Katie the Fed*

        I think anything involving:

        Anything involving pets, babies, cultural appropriation, racism, sexism, and apparently access badges is probably going to be a comment storm :)

        1. fposte*

          Access badges were a dark horse there! But maybe they’re close enough to apparel, which is another storm seed.

          2. fposte*

            Oh, yeah. Just search for “dogs” and you’ll get some posts where the discussion is probably still going.

        3. Grits McGee*

          Plus, this letter has *inappropriate touching*, which it seems like always results in a comment deluge.

        4. Turtle Candle*

          And food! Even if only because everyone has their own idiosyncratic list of foods they would like to ban. And often food discussions turn into discussions of cultural differences, body shaming, disabiliy, food restrictions, diet, the fact that not everyone can eat sandwiches….

      3. Drew*

        Looks like a smart move, since these comments have ‘sploded all over the place. Glad you have the ability to do this. And thank you!

    3. Augusta Sugarbean*

      I was just thinking that I feel bad for other OPs when their letters are posted with controversial/outrage-generating letters. Can you just add a P.S. at the end of this post to say it was moved to it’s own post?

  13. really*

    The pinching “tradition” for St Patrick’s day is very elementary school. But the coworkers don’t seem to understand that being Irish exempts you from having to wear green. Says the lady who is Irish on her mother’s side and who’s husband is over half Irish.

  14. fishy*

    #1: If I were this employee, I would have been pissed too. Maybe not quit-on-the-spot pissed, but definitely pretty mad. People with no Irish heritage chiding me and even physically punishing me(!) for not celebrating a day about my own heritage “correctly” really rubs me the wrong way.

  15. Planner Lady*

    LW 1) All of my “whut?”

    Firstly, I don’t understand wanting to celebrate another nation’s national day at work. That just seems odd to me, but that might be an Australian thing – while people absolutely celebrate St Patrick’s day, its not with nearly the same amount of vigour as in the US, and is mainly celebrated by young drinkers and the actual Irish. I have never heard of the pinching tradition, and it seems completely out of place for the workplace – a nasty kind of outgroup policing.

    Secondly, your assistant wasn’t feeling safe or supported by you. She’s been physically harassed/assaulted in the workplace, and you haven’t apologised, and are considering punishing her through providing a poor reference. In this way you are participating in the same outgroup policing. I suspect that your assistant had been concerned about this kind of thing in the past, only to have it glossed over, if your reaction is anything to go by – it might be worth considering this possibility and using it as a learning experience.

    LW 4)
    I know how you feel – in my line of work the only way to get hold of the actual computer system is to use it in a corporate context – if I was to get hold of a licence for personal use I wouldn’t be able to use it as it wouldn’t have the data feeds I would need to make it work.

    That being said, don’t be discouraged! Several years ago I interviewed for a secondment to cover someone’s long service leave. I was honest about the level of experience I had with that computer system then (not very much, and a long time ago) and I was very kindly when I was given feedback on the result that because I didn’t have current experience, I wasn’t eligible for the secondment.

    However, they had been so impressed with my interview with all the other aspects, that I was recommended for another secondment, where I not only had a chance to learn the system, but was able to eventually secure ongoing employment in that area, resulting in a big pay rise for me and a great new team. Even if you don’t have the skills, talking about having some familiarity is going to be better than nothing, and a good cover letter/interview will do a world of wonders, even if you don’t dot every i in the requirements.

    1. jordanjay29*

      That’s some great luck. I don’t know why companies post job requirements that include highly specialized software. It’s almost guaranteed to restrict the pool of applicants to internal candidates only, or the rare case of someone coming from a competitor.

    2. Mephyle*

      @PlannerLady: The “celebrating another nation” thing is because what is being celebrated isn’t so much the Mother Nation itself as the diaspora – the part of it that migrated to the U.S. and became a part of that nation. That completely explains, for example, Cinco de Mayo, which is pretty much on the level of a bank holiday in almost all of Mexico, but a huge celebration in the U.S. That is, 5 de mayo in the U.S. is not a celebration of Mexico – it’s a celebration of being Mexican-American.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      For what it’s worth, Irish is the second most common heritage claimed by people in the US, after German. So it’s a lot of people to say “I’m Irish!” when they mean that one great-grandparent had two Irish immigrant grandparents….

  16. Gadfly*

    With OP1, if the second guy pinched her butt by accident because she was sitting, what was he aiming for before? Because her thigh isn’t any better.

    Was the first pincher also male? Because given the history of guys at work pinching female coworkers, it does make the optics worse if a couple of men decided to ignore her bodily autonomy in order to force her to participate in activities she found distasteful and even degrading.

    1. kb*

      I was also wondering where he was aiming that could be better?? Why was he coming at her from behind?? I don’t think any pinching is appropriate in the workplace, but even amongst friends I’ve only been pinched on the arm. An arm pinch wouldn’t have been great in this situation either, but this person trying to pinch anywhere near her butt just ups the inappropriateness.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I was wondering that aw well. “Um, I was aiming for her arm, but then she sat down so I accidental pinched her butt.” Really? Really!!!??? But in a workplace where pinching is acceptable, it’s not surprising that someone thought that butt pinching would be acceptable.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        It’s ludicrous that I actually typed “workplace” “acceptable” “butt pinching” in the same sentence.

  17. Sunshine*

    Yeah, I have to agree with everyone else here! I’m in my early twenties and the last time anyone pinched me on St Patrick’s Day it was my best friend sometime in high school. Before that, definitely elementary school. I don’t know if I would quit on the spot but I would be very upset if this happened in my workplace. The fact that she was upset enough to quit on the spot makes me wonder if this is some sort of last straw scenario-whether it be the whole lead up to the treatment of the holiday or something more going on in the office. Definitely don’t ruin her chances of being hired elsewhere and (possibly) look into your offices culture!

    1. Jen*

      I agree. And it does say something about the overall office culture.

      I think of this with April Fool’s Day. We had a whole clique of employees (most of whom have moved on) who LOVED April Fool’s Day. I even went and talked to their boss in advance asking if he could give them ground rules. But nope! He thought it was just good fun. These are examples of their April Fool’s jokes – stole a box of prizes I needed for a contest and hid them and would not tell me where they were. Then stole and hid my cell phone. When I got very angry about this (because this is the phone where I get calls about my children at school) they acted like I was overreacting but rather than give it back to me, they wrote ransom letters and hid it in my office. It wasn’t just me that they did this too and everyone else hated it but they were allowed to run crazy because this was “fun” but it was actually miserable and we all hated it.

      1. paul*

        *that* I’d call the cops on.

        “Hey, this guy’s stolen the cell phones of 1/2 our office and is refusing to give them back to us all”

        I mean, theft is theft.

        2. Mephyle*

          One hopes the office still had fixed phones – otherwise how would the victims even call the police?

      2. SbucksAddict*

        I agree – this is like April Fool’s Day. You don’t do anything to someone who doesn’t enjoy it.

        I love love love April Fools day and I work with someone who feels the same. We aren’t malicious. Mainly we just do little pranks like wallpapering someone’s office with pictures of us or putting googly eyes on light switches and file drawers. You know what we don’t do? We don’t do it to anyone without asking them first if they like April Fool’s day and we don’t do anything that would disrupt their day too much. No stealing phones. No hiding important files. About half of the office doesn’t like to be pranked and nothing is done to those employees at all. I have no desire to make anyone miserable.

        1. Parenthetically*

          I have a coworker like this. She is a foodie and always makes silly little fakeout food things (one year she made cupcakes that were frosted look like little piles of mashed potato with peas and carrots she had painstakingly made from starbursts!), and will occasionally do something wilder (wrapped my desk in foil once), but it’s all silly rather than disruptive, and it’s not mean spirited at all. There’s a way to celebrate/observe/whatever these fun days in a way that doesn’t step on toes.

      3. Halpful*

        Thanks for reminding me – I think I’m going to find my Fluttershy pin and wear it on april 1st. Not that many people are likely to be aware of the “don’t prank fluttershy” rule, but, it’ll make me feel better. :)

  18. Cynical Lackey*

    Cinco de mayo is coming up in about six weeks. here’s a chance for you to run off some Mexican-American employees with your insensitive stereotypes.

    1. Gaia*

      Seriously, maybe they can kick their one Mexican American employee who thinks it is kind of offensive for everyone else to wear woven ponchos and sombreros and speak broken Spanish while chugging tequila in celebration of Mexican Independence Day*

      And you can imagine the Muslim holidays? Or Holi? Is this the Hanukkah Balls office?

      *Cinco de Mayo is not, in fact, Mexico’s Independence Day from Spain. It is a celebration of the Battle of Puebla against the French.

      1. Gadfly*

        And Holi is coming up too–randomly assault the Indian/South East Asians who may or may not celebrate it and hopefully aren’t asthmatic or allergic by pelting them with colorful powdered chalk that can stain their clothes. Just pop out of hiding and throw handfuls at them.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Holi just passed. I can see managers instantly realizing what the problem is with people hurling handfuls of powdered chalk around the office, though–might be a fun comeback to the “aw, we’re pinching you in good fun!” defense.

          1. Gadfly*

            Crap–you are right. I plead finals brain and the worst online textbook system I’ve ever encountered as an excuse.

      2. paul*

        ….do people regularly do that? I’m in Texas which isn’t exactly a bastion of awareness in a lot of ways but I rarely if ever see that sort of behavior. Maybe some of the tackier frats at the nearby university but that’s about it.

        1. LBK*

          Yeah, typically the most I see people do around here is go out for Mexican food and/or have some margaritas. I think I’ve maybe seen a few people in sombreros, which made me cringe a little, but nothing more elaborate than that.

          1. paul*

            I mean, we’re as like as not to have Tex-Mex and margaritas for dinner but that’s the case any random day of the year too so…gimme that carne asada nom nom nom

        2. Gaia*

          I live in a rather liberal state and yes…yes they do this. It is gross and offensive but they do it.

    3. NW Mossy*

      In elementary school, I recall being taught the “Mexican Hat Dance” in PE – perhaps forcing employees to do this culturally-insensitive activity would fit right in with the theme of adults behaving like children vis a vis appropriated national holidays.

    4. Marcela*

      I am not even Mexican, but from the other end of America, and I got asked for my plans for 5 de mayo. It’s in the same angry spot where almost every latinamerican restaurant I’ve been feel the need to serve tortillas and nachos, that us in the south DO NOT eat unless we are eating Mexican food.

      1. paul*

        FWIW, the bulk of the restaurants are more Mexican or Tex Mex…the very few Honduran or Guatemalan restaurants I’ve had the fortune to eat at didn’t really do chips and salsa or tortillas. There’s just not that many of them (and in fact none in my city–I’ve only found them when traveling)

  19. Observer*

    #1 Perhaps you should look at what actually happened here – and I’m basing myself COMPLETELY on your letter – no guesswork here.

    The one Irish person in the office tells you that she finds the way the office is celebrating St Patricks Day, offensive and cultural appropriation. She gets brushed off. (Question: Why? Because all the non-Irish people in the office know more about Irish traditions that the one Irish person in the office?)

    She comes into the office and *gets pinched*.
    She makes her displeasure loudly known by yelling at the person who did it.
    She goes into a meeting and gets pinched AGAIN, near the butt.
    She again yells, and instead of getting an apology, she is brushed off and told that 1. it wasn’t supposed to be a butt pinch just a “regular” pinch – totally implying that pinching is ok, and 2. *she* is the ignorant one because she didn’t “understand” a “tradition” of her ethnicity, which made it ok for people to pinch her.
    In response to this defense of being attacked, she made an apparently dramatic exit.

    At no point did you or anyone in your chain of command do anything to apologize to her for the pinching, or for trying to enforce a tradition on her that she, at best, is uninterested in.

    Take out the words “Irish” and “st Patricks day” and replace it with any other ethnicity and holiday, and think long and hard whether this chain of events sounds reasonable to you. Perhaps replace it with YOUR ethnicity and a holiday from YOUR tradition that’s been co-opted by some group or other. Does that help you to understand what the issue is here?

    What’s really mind blowing is that not only did you allow one of your staff to be harassed in this way, you no want to PUNISH her for escaping a workplace where she sees she will be mistreated. This is not a guess – it has already happened!

    1. Keen Oat*

      For better or worse (worse) this is an American tradition, not an Irish tradition. Irish people in Ireland have zero to do with pinching (completely juvenile and unprofessional), green-dyed corned beef or wearing green on St. Patrick’s Day. It’s not appropriation if it starts and continues in the US, a nation culturally and politically separate from Ireland and was never in Ireland to begin with.

      1. Gaia*

        It is still appropriation. The celebration started with Irish Americans celebrating the way they had done so back in the old country. It took on another life form when non-Irish Americans took over the holiday and began dressing like leprechauns and binge drinking.

        1. Keen Oat*

          In my many decades on this earth, I’ve lived in three heavily Irish-American areas in New York and the Boston metro area and the people dressing up in green with plastic hats and drinking green beer and stumbling around were Irish-Americans with t-shirts that said “Kiss Me, I’m Irish.” Maybe some of their non-Irish friends were there too but they definitely were just following what the Irish-Americans were doing right in front of them.

          There are certainly some people of Irish descent who find the behavior offensive but it’s been going on a long time and started and continues with Irish-Americans.

          1. Gaia*

            Lots of terribly offensive things go on for a long time before we decide they are offensive enough to stop. The point is *this* employee was the only one in this office of Irish heritage. Her culture was being appropriated by people who did not share her culture and she voiced offense. That should have been the end of it. But it wasn’t – and it got worse as it often does.

            1. JB (not in Houston)*

              Keen Oat wasn’t saying what was done in the OP’s office was ok. They were addressing your comment that the holiday gets celebrated the way it does in the US because non-Irish-Americans took it over.

      3. FiveWheels*

        When Americans celebrate the patron Saint of Ireland’s day by dressing up in green (a colour connected to Ireland, but not to Patrick), drinking Irish drinks, inviting the Taoiseach over, proclaiming themselves to be Irish, and using symbols of Ireland ranging from leprechauns to shamrocks/four leafed covers (different things but why worry)…

        Then I don’t think a claim that the celebrations are culturally and politically separate from Ireland holds up.

        1. Aveline*

          Interestingly, sky blue was Patrick’s color.

          The green is a symbol of Ireland as separate from England.

        2. TL -*

          Well, when do immigrants and children of immigrants lose the rights to celebrate holidays they brought over as they see fit, up to and including inviting others in to celebrate, and changing the way they celebrate it due to changing cultural norms?
          Honestly, I can see Holi ending up being incorporated in the same way, because it is often celebrated (at least in American colleges) as a giant party, hosted by the Indian student group, that pretty much anyone in the community is invited to. Whereas Purim, also a big party, does not invite in non-Jewish people, and thus has remained a solely Jewish celebration.

        3. LBK*

          Is people with no Irish heritage proclaiming themselves to be Irish really a thing that happens on St. Paddy’s Day? Maybe I’ve just always lived in places where there actually were high numbers of people with Irish ancestors (myself included) but I keep seeing comments about this and I’m surprised by it.

          I do also think that associating closely with your ancestry is a uniquely American phenomenon since the vast majority of us only have a handful of generations of history here. It’s something that just doesn’t apply in many other countries where the majority have a pretty homogeneous ancestry of being from where they still live.

          1. Emi.*

            I’ve heard lots of complaints about this other places too, but I honestly don’t know how many cities there are in this country where you can a lot of white people together and not have a sizable (part-)Irish contingent. Maybe the Hamptons, or wherever WASPs go on vacation.

          2. Natalie*

            It’d be hard to say if a person has *no* Irish heritage. But heritage is funny among white Americans, because we generally don’t live in ethnic enclaves anymore. People of different countries of origin has intermarried enough that “heritage” is more traditions, names, and religions that are passed down than what percentage of your ancestors came from this part of Europe vs that part of Europe.

            Also, this Onion classic: http://www.theonion.com/article/man-whos-116th-irish-proud-of-his-irish-heritage-103

        4. cbackson*

          I don’t think most Americans (outside of strongly ethnically Irish enclaves) understand any political implication of this at all. Like, if you asked most Americans at a St. Patrick’s Day parade for their views on Irish republicanism, they would be very confused that there were Trump supporters in Ireland.

          I’m not into St. Patrick’s Day at all, mostly because I am not into drinking-themed holidays. That said, I will also admit that I’m not only 0% Irish, but am descended from English noble families that were directly involved in occupying Ireland in the 16th century and so it seems particularly inappropriate for me to get into celebrating St. Patrick’s Day. Not that most people in the US know that history, but it just seems off to join in the overall US “we’re all Irish on St. Patrick’s Day” thing. I’m definitely not, and when my ancestors lived in Ireland, they were (justifiably) hated by actual Irish people to whom they were dreadful.

      5. Observer*

        It makes no difference if it REALLY is “appropriation” or not. It’s certainly not the place of any American to tell someone Irish what and “Irish” tradition is. Telling others what their tradition is, especially when you happen to be wrong, is probably not appropriation, but it’s similar enough that it’s easy to see why the word gets used.

        At MINIMUM, the workplace should have stayed out of trying to “educate” her on her traditions.

      6. Chinook*

        But St. Patrick’s Day is still her National Holiday if she is Irish. Sure, she may not celebrate it the same way as Irish Americans, but that doesn’t give them the right to tell her that she is wrong to be insulted about how she sees her nationality being portrayed.

    2. MillersSpring*

      Can you imagine if people in other countries pinched their coworkers if they didn’t wear red, white and blue on America’s Fourth of July?

      1. Gaia*

        Better still, if they dress up like some cartoon version of an American stereotype and behave in embarrassing ways and if the lone American was like “hey, this is kind of offensive” and got told they didn’t understand the tradition and were pinched for not participating.

        1. Koko*

          You’re working abroad, and on Fourth of July everyone dresses like Snookie and The Situation and drinks out of red cups.

        2. LBK*

          Honestly, I don’t think anyone could beat America at dressing in garish, over-the-top patriotic gear on the 4th. We do a pretty good job at being caricatures of ourselves.

      2. Keen Oat*

        Is there a large community of Americans in another country that have long-established (like decades long) celebrations of Fourth of July, so much so that other people in the country have taken the holiday as their own? Because these aren’t the same at all.

        1. Mookie*

          There are multiple American diasporas, yes, and cultural exchange is not remotely a novel phenomenon. Traditions cross the globe, are embraced elsewhere, and through that embrace are changed (nuances added or lost) and melded into pre-existing traditions or replacing wholesale those traditions altogether.

          The American version of Thanksgiving (now celebrated in the US on the fourth Thursday in November) has been both adopted without prompting and exported: the Dutch city Leiden uses it to honor migrants from Leiden who became part of the Plymouth Planation and Norfolk Island has celebrated a hybrid version of it (blended with the pre-existing tradition of a Harvest Home festival) since the late 19th century, when an American introduced it while acting as consul.

          Ditto Republic Day in the Philippines, pointedly celebrated 4 July. And Black Friday. And the American mutation of Halloween.

          1. Aveline*

            A lot of my British and German friends do Americanized Halloween.

            Replete w offensive costumes.

            1. many bells down*

              I’ve got a friend in Norway who is very upset that where he lives seems to have imported our worst Halloween traditions. Pranks and eggings and way too much candy.

          2. JB (not in Houston)*

            What you’re talking about, though, doesn’t seem to be what Keen Oat is talking about–large groups of *Americans* who immigrated to another country and kept celebrating American holidays, which over time turned into a version different from how they are celebrated in the US. Keen Oat wasn’t denying the existence of cultural exchange or that there are American diasporas.

            The places in the US that do the most celebrating of St. Patrick’s Day or the parts of the US that have the most Irish-Americans. It is a holiday celebrated the most by people of that heritage.

            1. fposte*

              I had the same thought as Keen Oat, which is why I mentioned Liberian Thanksgiving in another comment. I don’t actually know if that’s an American-seeded holiday, since autumnal harvest festivals are pretty common, but I thought it was a possibility. I think it will be harder to find an American equivalent because we haven’t (yet) been the place where there are mass diasporas from.

              (I was also thinking that it’s likely that customs taken along would be strongly regional, not just national, but of course that’s often true of immigrant customs; it’s just that once they cross a border they often become treated as nationally rather than locally representative.)

        2. EB*

          Well, actually, Halloween has been exported to Mexico by Americans and Mexicans Americans (trick-or-treating apparently caught children’s imaginations), and Christmas has been exported to Japan.

          I think the Japanese Cebration of Christmas as a holiday for spreading cheer, where you eat fried chicken (KFC some how associated itself with Christmas as well) and Christmas cakes, is a pretty good example of other cultures transforming American holidays.

    3. CDM*

      sorry, that isn’t how OP reads.

      She got pinched walking to a meeting. She got pinched sitting down for that same meeting, she walked out. A matter of minutes, at most.

      She was not brushed off, nobody defended the pinching, and she didn’t give the employer any opportunity to respond, appropriately or not, to the incidents.

      OP found out about the pinching well after the assistant walked, and you are saying OP allowed it to happen. That’s completely unjustified.

      1. Mookie*

        She yelled after the first pinching but, nevertheless, the pinchers persisted.

        Likewise, she made it perfectly clear, in advance of the day, that she wouldn’t be participating.

        These people are grown-ups. When someone says no, they know what means. When someone yells, they know what that signifies. They just didn’t like what they heard or saw. Nobody has to actively “defend” these boundary crossings to make the crossings unacceptable. Complicity through silence and disregard is enough. Bystanders had opportunities to stop this. When they didn’t intervene, she removed herself from the situation.

        1. Mookie*

          I mean, people forget it’s a courtesy, sometimes a defense mechanism, for someone to smilingly accept weird, aggressive, unwanted behavior. Doing so is not obligatory. Failing to do so or being incapable of doing so is not a personal failure and does not create A Both Sides Do It, Everyone Is Equally to Blame situation. She de-escalated by leaving.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Pinching should not have been happening at all. But just once, with everyone in earshot promptly coming down on the side of the pinchee and against the pincher, might have been salvageable. And if she’d turned and stormed out then, arguably too soon for management or appalled coworkers to do anything to address it. (Or maybe it would reflect that this was one last straw of ongoing harassment.)

        Instead, that first strong ‘get off me!’ seems to have set off a wider “Oooooooooh, if we pinch Claire she screams! Me next! Ha ha ha!” reaction in her coworkers. In which case physically getting herself out of their reach is the only thing she has left–she tried making it clear, verbally, that she didn’t want to be physically poked and pinched and groped, and someone promptly laughed and went for her ass.

      3. Observer*

        Really?

        How long does it take to find someone to tell about the first pinch?

        How long does it take a team leader to say “Cut that out NOW!” About 10 seconds! How long does it take for people to NOT claim that pinching is ok? And to NOT tell someone that they don’t know their own traditions? 0 SECONDS. The second the team lead (or whoever was running the meeting) failed to shut down the pinching and the defense of pinching the company lost ANY credible argument about “being given a chance.”

        How long should it have taken for the OP to call the admin and APOLOGIZE? Note more than two minutes, but the OP didn’t do that either.

        1. La Revancha del Tango*

          The letter doesn’t say that the second pincher knew about the first one. Or that both pinchers knew that the receptionist was so against St. Patrick’s day. I think she acted ridiculously. And also, “near her butt” is not on her butt.

          1. Natalie*

            Does it matter? Unless I am about to fall off a bridge or something and my co-worker catches me, I’m not sure why they should be touching me on or near my butt.

          3. Observer*

            Picking my jaw up from the floor!

            1. You mean it’s ok for someone to pinch her, as long as it’s NOT in the butt?!

            2. Someone actually needs to declare that she doesn’t want to be pinched, for people to understand that you don’t pinch them?! The issue here is not that she is against the celebration. The issue is that she DOES NOT WANT TO BE PINCHED. How hard is that to figure out!?

            3. She yelled the second time, too. How much more clear did she need to be that she DOES NOT WANT TO BE PINCHED?!

            What, in your opinion, does someone need to do to NOT be pinched (or hit or kicked) in the office?

            1. La Revancha del Tango*

              I supposed I disagree with this entirely. I would not care if a coworker pinched me, even on the butt. Like the LW said, it wasn’t intended to be “near the butt” but it happened that way because the receptionist was sitting.

              It was made to be a joke and it’s harmless.

              1. Kore*

                You might not care, but a lot of people would care. It’s unwanted touching, that’s unacceptable at the office. The reason the location of pinch #2 is even remotely relevant is because that gives it a sexual harassment element to it, but no one should be pinched at the office, period.

                I might not quit on the spot, but if I was pinched multiple times at the office with at least one dangerously close to my rear, you can bet I’d be in HR immediately.

                Saying something is “just a joke” doesn’t erase or excuse terrible behavior.

              2. MashaKasha*

                I would care deeply if a coworker touched me anywhere on my body, unless I’m, I don’t know, dying and they’re giving me the CPR that might save my life. And I cannot think of any examples in my or my friends, or colleagues’ work experience that would indicate that the overwhelming majority of people don’t share my opinion. People are just not okay with being touched by coworkers for no apparent reason, anywhere. “It was made to be a joke” is not a good enough reason.

              4. Kathryn T.*

                How is pinching somebody a joke? I don’t get it. It doesn’t look anything like a joke to me.

              5. The Cosmic Avenger*

                I would not care if a coworker whacked me on the head with a 2×4, even from behind. It’s made to be a joke and it’s harmless.

                Well, it would be to me, as I have a very hard head….but luckily for you, I also am aware that not everyone feels exactly the same way that I do about everything. But according to you, it would be OK for me to do something to *you* as long as *I* don’t mind it, right?

              6. aebhel*

                I’m not offended by nudity, but that doesn’t make it appropriate to show up naked to work. Appropriate public behavior isn’t something you get to opt out of just because whatever obnoxious thing wouldn’t personally bother you. Most people quite reasonably expect not to be pinched, or slapped, or grabbed, or otherwise physically hassled at work. This is not an onerous boundary to respect.

              7. kittycritter*

                I’m with you – I think people are getting ridiculously riled up about this. Like omg, somebody lightly pinched me, this is the worst thing ever!!!

                I’m not trying to sound mean, but was this incident really worth blowing up like this and walking away from a job? Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. I’m sorry, but this example here doesn’t lead me to scream “hostile workplace” the same way that a sexual harassment case (and do NOT say this qualifies as sexual harassment – pinching on St Paddy’s day?? get real!) or gender/religious discrimination would.

                And it’s not clear to me if management was even given a chance to actually do anything about the pinchers before the assistant stormed off. Just goes to show that some folks really can NOT take a joke, and therefore you should really not joke around or playfully tease anyone at work EVER because you never know if the person you’re talking to is going to be one of these super uptight people who will use any possible reason to go off on a dramatic show of glorious indignation against you. Work = no-fun zone. Thanks everybody for being so uptight that you’ve got me worried about even making eye contact the wrong way with a co-worker, geez….

                1. MiaMia*

                  Yes, because eye contact is the same as painful physical contact.

                  Also, yes, you’re damn right, don’t “joke” with someone if you suspect they won’t appreciate it, especially if said “joke” involves any physical contact, theft of property, comments that would be considered insensitive if not a “joke,” etc. That’s not a work thing, that’s a mature adult thing.

                  In other words, grow up.

          4. tigerStripes*

            I think the pinchers acted ridiculously. What self-respecting adult pinches other adults when they don’t know if the other adults are OK with it?

            In her shoes, I’d have made a big fuss. I might not have quit, but I’d have been talking to my boss and to HR, and the second time it happened, I probably would have been crying because I’d have been so furious. And based on previous behavior, I probably would have screamed or screeched on getting pinched like that.

            I don’t know what’s ridiculous about not wanting co-workers to pinch you.

    4. brighidg*

      Eh, I think the cultural appropriation argument is a bit ridiculous as St. Patrick’s Day has only grown in popularity with Irish-American dominance in politics in daily life. If anything it’s a sign of white-as-default than cultural appropriation.

      (Said as Irish-American descendant of four off-the-boat Irish grandparents.)

      That said, don’t pinch people. Why is this even a discussion??? My workplace goes crazy with St. Pat’s – being that we do have several Irish-Americans but usually the worst problem we have is reminding people that “Irish carbombs” (as in the drinks or the cupcakes based on the drinks) is an offensive name, especially to our Irish and British employees.

  20. Keen Oat*

    I don’t know how I made it so long (my whole life) in New England and New York City without realizing that pinching is something that adults did, especially at work. Please people, keep your hands and grammar school traditions to yourselves!

    Also, most of the Irish immigrants I’ve known in the US (when I live variously in Woodside, Queens and 205th in the Bronx in NYC) considered the American-style Saint Patrick’s Day to be a uniquely (Irish-)American day. Many of them would take the most offense that Americans of Irish Ancestry called themselves “Irish” and they noted that there is a big difference between St. Patrick’s Day customs in Ireland and those in the US. They were sometimes a little embarrassed at the public displays of drunkenness and green-dyed things but they also knew that people who identified as Irish-American had their own traditions developed over centuries in the US–of course the traditions were going to be different. It’s more of a Irish-Ancestry Pride custom in the US and as someone upthread mentioned it’s more of a National Day in Ireland, not an especially religious or sacrosanct one.

    It’s an Irish-American holiday that has morphed into a more general American holiday with its own weird traditions.

    1. Gadfly*

      I understand that tourist places in Ireland will often now put on a show to lure in a few more American tourists. So we are starting to corrupt them.

    2. FiveWheels*

      “Many of them would take the most offense that Americans of Irish Ancestry called themselves “Irish””

      +1000

      1. Mookie*

        And that is true for many hyphenated Americans. We can be a loud, crass, and blustery sort, often when engaging in (sometimes) well-meaning attempts at “solidarity” or Explorations in Identity. Also, any excuse to drink, even poorly pulled pints more’s the pity.

            1. Mookie*

              In my experience, a new opportunity for people to actively demonstrate how gullible* they are in textile form.

              *also deficient in history

              1. Susan C.*

                It’s ridiculous how worked up I, a non-Scot, can get about historical tartan revisionism. Gah.

                2. FiveWheels*

                  As a Scottish-Northern Irish person, I can assure you that most Scots like and wear tartan and the historical associations don’t cause offence. I’m kind of intrigued at the idea of a Tartan Day that was overwhelmingly covered in tartan, though…

            2. Nic*

              Tartan Day is a celebration of Scottish heritage on 6 April, the date on which the Declaration of Arbroath was signed in 1320. An ad hoc event was held in New York City in 1982, but the current format originated in Canada in the mid-1980s.

              Wikipedia. I had to look it up, too.

              1. Chinook*

                I am thinking that the Canadian Tartan Day also included the introduction of the Canadian Tartan (in all its autumnal glory of orange, red, green and black).

      2. paul*

        I can see that.

        By descent I’m a mixture of Scottish, Irish, and Native American.

        I can’t really culturally identify with any of them though, so I just say American. It weirds me out when someone that hasn’t been to a place and doesn’t speak the language calls themselves an X-American (Italian-American, Spanish-American, whatever) when they don’t know anything about the X they’re hyphenating with.

        1. Newby*

          I think that a lot of the time it comes from having some family traditions that originate from the other culture. I say that my Mom’s family is Polish even though it was my great grandparents that actually came from Poland. They went to a Polish church, ate Polish food and my grandparents even spoke Polish. I’ve never been to Poland and don’t speak Polish, but that heritage is still a part of who I am.

          1. Newby*

            I should also say that I have Scottish, Native American, and English heritage but don’t identify with those at all because it was not a part of my life or family traditions.

      3. Emi.*

        I feel like they need to get over that. It’s a linguistic convention that we’ve developed in the US, where in certain contexts, “Irish” is short for “Irish-American” or “of Irish extraction.” It would be obnoxious if Irish-Americans claimed to be Irish in the same sense as Irish people in Ireland, but I’ve never encountered anyone making that kind of claim. Have you?

        1. Eilidh*

          There are ACTUAL Irish people in the USA, as well as those with a tiny drop of Irish blood several generations back. Developing a linguistic convention that conflates the two is just unhelpful.

          Plus, yeah, plenty of so-called “Irish” people in the USA claim that having a great-great-great-grandparent from Co Armagh makes them “just as Irish” as someone born in Ireland. I watched a rather drunk American tourist make this case to a crowd of actual Irish people just last week. In a Dublin pub. On St Patrick’s Day. It was horrifically embarassing. But sadly, far from the first time.

          1. Emi.*

            I agree that it’s unhelpful in a lot of cases, but it works just fine in others, so I don’t think it’s likely to go away (especially because it’s not that hard to press for clarification when it’s needed).

          2. fposte*

            Nonetheless, that is a common and accepted linguistic convention in the U.S., and it’s not likely to change any time soon. I think the problem here is when U.S. folks don’t realize this isn’t a global concept and take this approach to other countries, but then that’s part of our international role of providing amusement.

            1. FiveWheels*

              Yeah, I think the issue to me is that “Irish” and “Irish-American” are two different things.

              This is not an exact analogy because of obvious historical context, but “African-American” is obviously different from “African.” If a white person, descended from (for example) white South Africans, but whose ancestors had lived in America for generations called himself African… I’d expect that to elicit confusion, at best.

              1. fposte*

                I’m not disagreeing that it’s confusing–it’s just one of those things that is the confusing way it is for some complicated cultural reasons, and I don’t see it going away.

              2. LBK*

                Well, for one thing Africa is a continent, so it’s not totally comparable. I think you would find plenty of people in the US with African heritage who refer to themselves by their actual country’s heritage the same as Irish-Americans would, although some people don’t know their history as clearly as white Americans since slave traders didn’t keep great records of it. Nation identity is definitely a big among the Latinx people I know in the US as well, and they usually just refer to it by country (Brazilian, Puerto Rican, Dominican, etc.) as well and leave the “-American” implicit. It’s not something exclusive to white Americans.

                1. Emi.*

                  Yes, and my mother’s grandmother wanted her to marry a “Chinese boy” like Preston the Canadian citizen.

              3. saf*

                I have nieces and nephew who are very light skinned. Their mother is an American mutt. Their father is north African, and very light. They have to specify his nation of origin when discussing their ethic heritage, or it gets confusing fast.

          3. paul*

            I think that any naming convention for this is going to get misused/abused/confusing.

            Part of why I’m kind of skeptical of a lot of them to begin with.

              1. paul*

                I know, and I know that it isn’t a reason to not try to develop one. I just get irritated/baffled by people claiming to be X-American when I know them, and know for a fact there’s not any real ties to X. It’s like…OK, you’re Russian-American (and I think he means ethnic Russian, not just from withint he current borders) but your family’s been over here since before our civil war, you don’t do anything particularly Russian, no one in your living memory in your family has spoken Russian or observed any Russian holidays or customs…why? And then yeah, all the “Irish-Americans” that come out on St. Patrick’s day. It’s all just weird as hell to me.

                1. fposte*

                  Oh, I was pretty much agreeing with you–that this whole area is so uneven and illogical that all the conventions end up as weird.

                2. Chinook*

                  It is truly confusing up north too. I am (half) French-Canadian, which means that part of my family was raised in French, lived in Quebec at one point and has been here for centuries. In no way to I claim to be part of (pre-revolutionary) France because I claim that. But, I am also Irish-Canadian because my dad is both Irish and a Canadian citizen but, if I say that, I then need to clarify that I am not Irish-Canadian like those who came over in the coffin ships or were one of our Prime Ministers (some of who are legitimately Irish-French-Canadian because they are descendants of Irish orphans adopted by French Canadians).

                  There are subtleties in discussing a multicultural background that English just can’t seem to handle.

                3. Anne (with an "e")*

                  I think some people are told that their ancestors came from X country and that information gets passed down. For example, all of my ancestors have been in the US since before the Revolution. However, I know where they came from originally. Or I guess I should say, I know where they supposedly came from. I don’t know about other people, but, in my family they also put a lot of stress on how we should be proud of being from the South. There was definitely a prejudice against Yankees growing up. I do not subscribe to this mindset, but, my mother, father, and grandparents always taught us this. In my family we weren’t allowed to say “Civil War.” We *had*to refer to it as “The War Between The States” or “The War of Yankee Agression.” You could actually get into trouble if you uttered the words, “Civil War.”

          4. LBK*

            I’m not sure any drunk person’s rant should be taken as a general example of their culture at large…I’ve lived in Irish-American-heavy communities for most of my life (including living in South Boston for the last 3 years) and I’ve never heard someone make this argument.

              1. LBK*

                Not that I think the US is a bastion of cultural respect per se, but it’s not nearly as much of an ignorant cesspool as it’s often painted, and we also have some conventions that are pretty specific to our culture being a nation of immigrants that can be hard to interpret from the outside.

            2. paul*

              Agreed to that.

              I mean, I’m 100% sure you can find idiotic drunks in Mexico, Ireland, Spain, Belize, Ethiopia, Germany, Russia, Nairobi, China, Britain, and just about any other country you care to name.

              1. Emi.*

                Hi, I used to live in Cologne, and Karneval was four things: costumes, candy, music, and DRUNKS EVERYWHERE.

          5. brighidg*

            But those ACTUAL Irish would also be Irish-Americans if they have American citizenship.

            Sorry, but other countries do things differently. I’m sure you can understand.

    3. Bow Ties Are Cool*

      I’m Irish-American and my St. Patrick’s Day tradition is to raise a pint of Guinness to my ancestors who survived the Famine and the crossing in the coffin ships. But I realize that’s not typical…

      1. paul*

        I’ve got to admit, I feel for my ancestors there: Came over in the coffin ships in the 1840s, then their kids got drafted to fight in our civil war. Crappy 30-40 years for their family.

    4. tigerStripes*

      I think part of the point is that adults normally don’t pinch each other, especially at work.

  21. HannahS*

    *mind boggles*

    OP. You should not be OK with your assistant being assaulted. You should not be declining to give good references to your assistant after she quit due to being assaulted. You very seriously screwed up. This woman deserves a major apology from you and your organization.

    If the lone [person of a certain group] is upset with the way you’re dealing with [cultural element of said group], listen to them. Their opinion is the one that counts.

    Again. You’re seemingly fine with the fact that coworkers are repeatedly pinching a woman. You need to re-think your priorities.

    1. mreasy*

      This. When a reference calls, if they ask why she quit without notice, you can say “she was physically assaulted at work by a coworker, who faced no consequences, and understandably discontinued her work with us.” And then, you can give the reference she deserves based on her work to that point. This situation is beyond the pale.

  22. Keen Oat*

    Yes, I heard that too from an American coworker (I live in the Boston area now) who goes to Ireland to visit her family!. She chalked it up to “money speaks.” She also said (previously) “Irish is Irish and Irish-American is Irish-American and never the twain shall meet.” I don’t know if I’d go as far as that but point taken.

  23. LadyCop*

    I’m a proudly not Irish or Catholic and am offended by any demands to wear green on said holiday…in fact, I’m amazed how people forget you can get drunk all other 364 days of the year.

    Anyway, if someone pinched me, I’d react the same way as any other day…I’d throat punch them ;)

  24. CrisA*

    I freely admit that as a redhead with an Irish last name who doesn’t live in a part of the US that historically had a lot of Irish immigrants, I actively try and avoid St. Patrick’s Day entirely. It’s hell. Especially since everybody thinks I should be super into celebrating “my” holiday, get bizarrely offended that I’m not, and sometimes decide it’s open season “touch Cris” and “try to force Cris to drink” day. If given the choice, I stay home.

    I can’t necessarily say I would’ve done the same in her shoes, but I sure would’ve been tempted.

    1. Red Reader*

      Amen. Redhead with an O’Lastname here. “You must love St Patrick’s Day! Why aren’t you wearing green?”

      I’m almost entirely Scandinavian. The O’Lastname, I just didn’t bother to change back to my maiden Lastnameson after my divorce. I am not Irish by any definition. I am not Catholic. I’m a Viking with a lousy temper. Still want to pinch me? :-P

      1. LeeGull*

        “Viking with a lousy temper” – I love that!! It’s making me wonder how we could turn that into its own Americanized holiday, just to see what non-Scandinavian folks would do to co-opt it! (Says a fellow American of Norwegian descent)

        1. Red Reader*

          I think we’d be bombarded with Hagar the Horrible knockoffs, people wearing plastic horned helmets, drinking bad beer and hollering about pillaging. Not seeing that going any better places than pinching does, to be honest. :P

          2. LeeGull*

            I’d forgotten all about the Haggar the Horrible comic strip! Yes, that probably would become the theme. Maybe we can scare them off by forcing lutefisk on them – no horned helmets or pillaging until all the lutefisk is gone!

      2. Elly*

        I’m the opposite of you. I had an O’Lastname, and I now have a Scandinavian last name. I haven’t been bothered on St. Patrick’s Day in years.

    2. AKJ*

      I hear you, I’m in the same situation. Except my hair isn’t red. (My father’s hair was, though.)

      1. Also Not Irish*

        Yep, redhead here that’s almost entirely of English and Dutch ancestry. St. Patrick’s Day drives me nuts. (My last name is not particularly Irish-sounding, but my first name is what people think of as a traditional Irish name (though it’s not).)

        1. SimonTheGreyWarden*

          Yep, my red-headed husband is descended from Scottish ancestry (Has a Mc last name, I think his great grandfather was the one who came over, etc) and it’s a pretty proud deal in their family. He doesn’t wear green for St Patrick’s day and hates being assumed to be Irish on it. I bet he’d wear his kilt to work to make a point on it if he could.

  25. Pam*

    If this is how your office celebrates St Patrick’s day, I’m glad I’m not around for birthdays.

    2. Solidus Pilcrow*

      The two things that struck me was 1) how much the OP’s office was getting into a holiday and 2) how childish/elementary school the celebration was. The most my office did was give out cookies with green sprinkles (and non-green cookies were also on offer, the oatmeal with butterscotch chips were rather tasty). No “encouragement” to wear green and certainly no pinching involved. I estimate maybe less than 1/4 of my co-workers wore anything green.

      Granted, I’m from an area that skews heavily Scandinavian and central European in the ethnic mix, so maybe I’m just not getting the need to celebrate in the office.

  26. MamaSarah*

    This makes me think of the OP who being kicked and punched under the table by her coworker…we have laws to protect us from harassment in the workplace, in part, to aasure that juvenile, playground bullying stays out of the workplace. Sounds like the OP may need to offer and attend a work place training on harassment and discrimination.

  27. Chris*

    I’m a substitute teacher, and St. Patrick’s Day with elementary school kid is an experience in itself. But, you know, they’re 9. The office is filled with adults. I’m American, but I lived in Scotland for a good while, and I wince at the idiocy our culture has with regards to Scotland, but it’s nothing compared with the insanity of how we handle Ireland. I generally just roll my eyes at the green plastic hats and green-dyed pilsner, but I’m not Irish. And I can understand being slowly filled with rage over all the nonsense, and having had your concerns brushed aside. And having your nationality being used to question why you don’t participate, yet ignoring it when you say you don’t want to. The actual quitting was over the top, I guess, but you do need to reach out, apologize, and offer a LOR at the very least. The topic of pinching itself I’ll leave to other comments.

    I will say that, having written my dissertation on Irish history (specifically the 1798 Rising), it grates on me that actual Irish culture, which is fun and interesting and amazing, is thrown aside so we can talk about Leprechauns and shamrocks and drink green beer. At least with Oktoberfest we get the beer and sausage right.

    1. Myrin*

      With regards to the Oktoberfest, let me just say as a Bavarian that the beer and sausage is just as much a stereotype as the Leprechauns and shamrocks (and I also doubt other events of such kind make the “right” beer and stuff; it’s become a bit of a farce at the actual Oktoberfest in Munich, even). Everyone here finds the various “celebrations” and dressing-up and what-have-you that people who aren’t Bavarian like to do ranging from silly to actually deeply offensive. I cringe whenever I see pictures of all those celebrities – German or not, it really doesn’t matter when you’re not Bavarian – wearing mockeries of our traditional and festive costumes; I usually have to turn off the TV/put the newspaper aside/click away from such a picture because it makes me so angry.

      1. Anja*

        As a Badisch person I twitch a little every time someone asks me if I have a dirndl. I’m admittedly tempted to buy myself some Schwarzwaelder Tracht at some point so if I’m going to show up dressed for a German party I can at least represent myself correctly. Admittedly even in my region it’s difficult to find Tracht from our area, and not the dirndls of Bavaria, Austria, and South Tirol – I usually have to look in the “gastronomy” section to browse, which is ridiculous.

    2. beetrootqueen*

      Yeah this is gross. I’m from a Scottish family people at work know this. I have a hundred percent challenged people about their offensive burns night planning or “funny” costumes. Listen to the actual Irish person it’s not hard.

      That’s not even to mention that whoever the hell pinched her should be in some deep trouble

  28. Workaholic*

    My team at work had a St. Patrick’s Day potluck (fail – everybody brought donuts). Most people wore green. One co-worker commented to a guy “you’re not wearing green! I’d pinch you, but i don’t want to get in trouble” Most people recognize pinching is not appropriate office behavior.

    1. Keen Oat*

      A coworker said to me she wore green to avoid being pinched. I thought “would anyone do that in an office?” I didn’t think so but reading the letter I guess it happens. How weird.

    2. Newby*

      I went to a potluck once where we only had dessert and alcohol. We were ok with it, but realized we had to start actually coordinating.

      1. Michelle*

        My sister once went to a “fruit salad potluck,” and I kid you not, everyone brought maraschino cherries, except for one person who came late, with some whipped cream.

        Sign up sheets, for the win!

    3. BrownEyedGirl*

      OMG, how did that fail? Corned beef and cabbage is a great work potluck food (if you have a work kitchen/break room) because you can prep the crockpot at home, plug it in when you get there, and eat at lunch.

      I always do corned beef and cabbage in March/around St. Patrick’s Day…… because that’s when corned beef is cheap and it’s fun to make once a year (eating some now).

  29. xx*

    OP1 – You should offer her job back and an apology AND make sure such a thing never happens again.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Agreed, but ONLY if you also have a serious conversation with the people who did the pinching. They need some consequences for their actions.

    5. neverjaunty*

      I doubt she wants her job back, given that she refuses to speak to the OP. And why would she?

  30. Not Australian*

    Just a note to add that, quite apart from the pinching, telling a person that s/he isn’t celebrating his/her *own cultural tradition* appropriately is incredibly insensitive and *so far* beyond tone-deaf that, IMHO, it veers in the direction of identity-policing. What’s next, telling them they’re not behaving appropriately for their gender? We’ve all seen where *that* leads…

    1. TBH*

      This. I was coming to the comments to say – there’s a lot of talk about what does or does not constitute appropriation, and that’s not the point here. The point is when a person of a culture tells you that what you are doing is offensive – BELIEVE THEM and stop doing the thing. Full stop.

      It’s not up for discussion. It doesn’t matter if you think it’s charming or funny or you’re just ‘trying your best to honor them’. Stop doing the thing.

      1. Kate*

        Well, (generally, not about this office) I don’t think that an Irish people really get a say on how Irish-Americans or even Americans celebrate a holiday, even one that used to be Irish. Now there is Irish-American St. Patrick’s Day, with corned beef and the color green, and Irish St. Patrick’s Day, with no corned beef and the color blue. There are more differences than that, but Irish-American is an entirely different culture from Irish and that doesn’t make it less authentic.

        1. One of the Sarahs*

          Except the OP said the pinched employee is the only even Irish-ish person in the office. This isn’t the case that a ton of Irish-Americans wanted this and she didn’t.

    2. Emi.*

      It’s more complicated than that. The way St. Patrick’s Day is celebrated in the US is an Irish-American tradition, and that’s its own legitimate heritage. It’s unfortunately confusing that so many people say “Irish” to mean “Irish-American,” but in a lot of other contexts (white people asking each other “What are you?”) it’s pretty clear, so it’s probably not going anywhere. If the assistant is Irish-Irish, she may not be aware of that (a lot of Europeans aren’t, IME), so someone should have explained it her if that’s the case.

      But an Irish-Irish person telling an Irish-American how to celebrate St. Patrick’s Day in the US is, in fact, them “telling a person that s/he isn’t celebrating his/her *own cultural tradition* appropriately.”

      1. Observer*

        That’s all good and fine. But, the OP explicitly called this out as the one Irish person not celebrating an “Irish” tradition. That’s just out of line.

        1. fposte*

          Yup, agreed. It seems like they expected her to be the most on board of all and were piqued that she wasn’t.

        2. Emi.*

          Oh, they were definitely out of line! I just don’t think she has very good standing to object to the general concept of shamrocks and green food in the US.

      2. LBK*

        Hmmm, I generally agree with what you’re saying, but the way the letter is written it sounds like the coworkers were the ones who were assuming the US version of the holiday is the same as the Irish version and that they were surprised she wasn’t participating. It sounds like they were specifically miffed because she’s Irish-Irish and they didn’t get why she of all people wouldn’t be more into the holiday, not grasping that our version of it has nothing to do with hers.

        1. Emi.*

          Hm, upon re-reading I think you’re right. If they were insisting that it’s an Irish-Irish tradition, then no wonder she didn’t realize it was an Irish-American one. :P

          1. Gadfly*

            Even if she did, when it is heavily based on stereotypes I think she still has plenty of room to say it is offensive that the Americans created a holiday like this…

  31. Dizzy Steinway*

    I don’t know how long you’ve worked in this place but it may have skewed your perspective on what is normal.

    It’s not normal or okay to have people pinch you at work. Ever.

  32. MommyMD*

    This is a prime example of overdoing dumb celebrations at work. This company took it way too far.

  33. Chocolate Teapot*

    I was horrified to read this. Just from reading the letter, I wondered if the assistant was unhappy with other things going on at work, and the pinching incidents were the final straw.

    Obviously the focus of this letter is St Patrick’s Day, but how many times have there been letters on here about office culture and being forced to join in? I am thinking of the Christmas parties, people turning up in inappropriate or offensive costumes, and then there is Women’s Day during Carneval in Germany, where women go round the office and cut off the men’s ties. (I know of at least one person who lost their favourite tie due to this)

    1. Not My Monkeys, Not My Circus*

      Chocolate Teapot, I got that same impression. If the only thing that had ever gone wrong were the events of that day, the employee’s reaction would definitely be over the top. The OP should look really hard at the overall picture and not just her behavior on Friday. Had she been expressing dissatisfaction with the job, coworkers or office culture? Even if she was not directly voicing complaints, I can’t imagine there weren’t other issues or expressions of dissatisfactions prior to storming off the job.

  34. Hoorah*

    I never knew about the pinching thing either.

    When people walk off a job it usually means they are completely fed up with major ongoing problems. Of course there are some who are immature. But most of the time people don’t just announce “I quit” and leave for no good reason.

    The pinching itself is offensive and juvenile. Particularly since she did not understand the context. But were there other issues not dealt with? May be worth reaching out to find out.

  35. Someone*

    Oh yes, it’s totally a mistake that someone “accidentally” pinched a woman in a low position on the butt, and it could have just as easily happened to a high level male manager. And of course they wouldn’t have been any more apologetic in that case.

    Or it might just be that the pincher is testing the boundaries of what they can get away with under the guise of a joke. The only correct response to accidentally pinching someone in or near the butt is abject mortification and apology on the part of the pincher and a strong message that this is unacceptable from management. Otherwise you have just showed your office that this behavior will be overlooked if framed correctly.

  36. JS*

    OP I’m sure you try to be a good boss but you really dropped the ball here. If she is the ONLY Irish person in your office you should be respectful of her wishes. At best, drop the tacky green decorations and food/drink and just have a normal happy hour or lunch celebration. At MINIMUM, if you were going to disregard her feelings you should have at least given her a PAID day off, or half-day off so she could opt out of the celebration.

    Right now you need to really do some reflection. This likely was the last straw in a series of events because your work environment and culture seems really insensitive based on your letter. Talk to her, apologize and listen with an open mind about her concerns. If she has been with your company for 2+ years a 2-weeks severance would be good as well because if she has other documented instances of assault/harassment, even tiny like this instance, she could file an EEOC report and sue if the compounded issues amount to something big enough. Also please, please give her a positive reference! If she has told this story to a potential employer in your field and then they call you and you give her a bad reference for quitting over it then only you and your company will look bad. Only base your reference off of her previous work ethics.

    Also advice: This is relevant if you are a woman or a man but, please think of our society and how women are viewed and treated. Think of how with debates over, women’s health, safety, and bodies makes women feel they are not in control of themselves fully. Think of how she may have a medical, mental or past trauma experience that could be triggered by unwanted/unsolicited touching. While I understand this is trivial to your experiences part of being a good boss and employer is being objective and having consideration for your employees. People arent perfect but we have the ability to learn, adapt and grow and this would be a great learning experience for your and your office frankly.

  37. Saucy Minx*

    When I lived in London & worked as a copy editor for a magazine, I mentioned one March day that I had no green garments to wear for the upcoming St Patrick’s Day, to be met by blank looks. The editor in chief, who was of Irish heritage, kindly informed me that “the wearing o’ the green” meant that one pinned a shamrock to one’s lapel.

    1. Dancer*

      I’m not surprised. There isn’t a huge amount of celebration of St Patrick’s Day in Great Britain as a whole (I can’t speak for Northern Ireland). Obviously some Irish people do celebrate it (my former Irish neighbour used to have a dinner party) and most Irish pubs run events (mainly in my experience attended by American expatriates) but we don’t collectively do dressing in green or dyeing foodstuffs odd colours and we certainly don’t go around pinching people. That’s just weird to my way of thinking.

      As has been identified further down a lot of people in the UK in particular have mixed feelings about celebrating St Patrick’s Day. I grew up against a backdrop of IRA bombs and bomb threats and one of my strong childhood memories is reading about the Warrington bomb and thinking of Timothy Parry (12) and Johnathan Ball (3) who died. I was the same age as Tim at the time and it was the first time I realised my own mortality.

      If the colleague who left grew up in the UK or Ireland she may also have mixed feelings given the strongly divisive political issues many of us grew up with. Her wish not to be pinched or dress up should absolutely be respected in my view.

  38. The Irish perspective*

    As an Irish person- I would find this really upsetting too. The whole pinchin/wearing green thing is so alien to Irish people – why on earth??? I think also it’s a bit the idea she is ‘not getting into the spirit of the holiday’ type spoilsportype blame she may have been getting. First this is NOT the spirit of St patricks day and second OK you have the day off but Irish workplaces barely mention it so that would have been weird as well. I would have found it hard to be told that I’m not celebrating my own national day properly.

    1. FiveWheels*

      Yeah, we have the day off but no different to any other bank holiday. in Northern Ireland as a kid it meant one thing only – Schools Cup finals.

      1. Hankie Enlightenment (formerly Sarahnova)*

        Yes! The Schools Rugby Cup finals at Ravenhill. A very important event. Apart from that, it was just the half-day off from school. The parades are a new thing, even (and tourist/American-influenced).

        1. FiveWheels*

          Yes, and the GAA at Casement. I know nothing about GAA but I think it’s only been televised relatively recently, and I think it’s very good that they both get airtime.

    2. Emi.*

      But it’s not alien to Irish-Americans. Okay, the pinching thing is over the line, but the other things are well within the normal range of how St. Patrick’s Day is celebrated in the US.

      1. Chinook*

        “but the other things are well within the normal range of how St. Patrick’s Day is celebrated in the US.”

        But she is Irish, not Irish-American, and the problem is that her coworkers (who are neither) were insisting that she celebrate HER holiday THEIR way. She should be allowed to not celebrate what she thinks is insulting to her culture without having people who are part of neither cultures telling her why she is wrong and to suck it up and be a team player.

        1. fposte*

          Well, we don’t actually know for certain which she is, but it doesn’t matter when it comes to her not wanting to be pinched.

        2. Tuxedo Cat*

          Besides the gross lack of boundaries with the pinching, I agree that she should be allowed to celebrate or not. And that’s even if what they did was 100% in alignment with what Irish in Ireland do.

          As a woman of color, I always dislike how people expect me to behave and celebrate my culture’s holidays. I’m not attached to them so they’re nothing special to me.

      2. Gadfly*

        Which she can still object to, even if Irish American, as being based on some ugly stereotypes. Just because it is “normal” doesn’t make it right.

  39. Tee*

    I’m American but live in Belfast with my Northern Irish husband.
    Never heard of the pinching aspect of St Patrick’s, on the playground or anywhere else.
    St Patrick’s is *not* an Irish holiday. It’s a Catholic Irish Holiday here on the Island of Eire.
    North and South.
    Those of us who are not Catholic enjoy a day off (or half day as my son’s Integrated school does).
    There is no pinching.
    There is much drinking.
    There are parades.

    If someone at my work pinched me, I’d punch them in the face. So, really, I think the OP got off easy.

    1. Hankie Enlightenment (formerly Sarahnova)*

      And the parades are new. No-one in their right mind would have held “St Patrick’s Day parades” in Belfast in the late 20th century. Even down South I believe they only date from the 70s or so. Ironically, the “celebrations” as such that now happen in Ireland are heavily influenced by the American “celebration” IMO, rather than vice versa.

      As a PP said, St Patricks Day in NIreland used to mean the Schools Rugby Cup final and maybe a bit of national pride for Catholic Irish people, but that’s it.

      1. fposte*

        That kind of transfer back and forth is pretty common with holiday celebrations, though. I think we’re on the verge of the myth of cultural purity here. (And St. Patrick himself is pretty problematic in 21st century terms–yay, the converting missionary who thinks he needs to drag the people away from their foolish paganism!)

        1. Hankie Enlightenment (formerly Sarahnova)*

          Fair point re: cultural cross-pollination. That said, I think it is definitely fair to point out that what is “Irish”, as practised in N America, and what is “Irish”, as practised on the island of Ireland, are widely different, and that convergence is coming from a deliberate catering to (predominantly) American tourists by Irish authorities and tourist boards.

          And I don’t think “St. Patrick’s day”, as practised in Ireland, has had much to do with St Patrick himself for a century or so, other than in his nominal capacity as national saint. Certainly St. George’s Day in England, insofar as it is recognised at all, has nothing whatsoever to do with St. George and celebrates current and historic ideas and symbols of “Englishness”. That said, my experience is only one person’s, and not a southern Irish person’s at that.

          1. fposte*

            I think it’s absolutely fair to point out, and I’m not really pushing back specifically on your comment so much as some of the general discussion of holidays here. There’s no such thing as holiday purity, and holidays adapting to make money off of rich visitors is a time-honored concept.

            1. LBK*

              Right – the US may have bastardized the traditions of some of our ancestors when comparing our version to the version in the original country, but I don’t think we’re the only ones prone to the commercializing and diluting of a holiday’s original meaning. I can’t imagine Christmas is a purely religious ceremony celebrating the birth of Christ all around the world.

              1. Not My Monkeys, Not My Circus*

                Christmas is not even a purely religious ceremony in the US. It’s more secular than religious starting with pre-Black Friday sales. Those that want it to be religious celebrate in their church, but I know multiple non-Christian families that also put up Christmas trees and open presents on December 25th, (as well as use the holiday from work to spend time with their families since their religious holidays are not federally recognized).

                Almost all holidays have become a reason to either get together with friends/family and/or a reason to drink like a fish before noon. I think people just like a reason to celebrate something, even if it is not theirs to celebrate (writing generally, there would be many who don’t for many and good reasons).

  40. Ruth (UK)*

    I have never heard of pinching as a st Patricks tradition. I often do the “pinch punch first of the month” thing but if I’m at work or it’s not a close friend etc I would only mime the “pinch punch” bit in the air (I often snap my fingers when I say “pinch”) and not actually touch them (and even when it is someone I’d pinch, I would never squeeze hard enough to cause a flinch or reaction, with the punch then being barely a fist bump…) I’m surprised someone would fully pinch a work colleague in any situation…

  41. lamuella*

    As someone who hadn’t encountered this tradition until I moved to the US, I never understood it. It seemed like basically normalized and condoned assault. I could well understand someone who was unfamiliar with or deeply disliked the tradition getting upset with it (possibly not to this extend, but this may have been the tipping point in a growing load). I did once have to jokingly tell one of my wife’s family who was talking about the “tradition” of pinching people for not wearing green about my “tradition” of hitting people who pinch me, but it was taken in jest.

  42. FiveWheels*

    Irish here.

    I’ve never heard of pinching on St Patrick’s Day. Making random things green (blue is the colour associated with St Patrick and his coach was red and white) is strange enough, but physically hurting people who don’t dress up?

    At minimum, the Irish employee needs a full apology and the pinchers need to be disciplined in some way. Ideally the company should also have a long hard look at why it is “celebrating” a religious holiday by forcing employees to act out cultural stereotypes, against the wishes of a member of that culture, and allowing them to be physically hurt if they refuse.

  43. Aoife*

    I was born in the US, have spent 4 full summers here, and have lived here for the past two years, but grew up in N.I. I only heard of this pinching thing this st paddys, when I was babysitting kids who were constantly talking about pinching and it was only after a while I got from the context that it must be a thing to pinch for not wearing green – so I think it’s perfectly understandable that she may not have understood or heard of the pinching thing – I would’ve been shocked. And while I get some others’ comments that pinching isn’t much of an assault, I disagree and can see how it would be pretty bad. This is coming from someone whose been slapped in the face and spanked on the ass multiple times in work/education scenarios. It all really and truly is assault, no matter how jovial it was meant to be, and I can accept why the offender might think it was funny. But For someone to suddenly pinch you from behind can be shocking in a CLUB where it’s slightly ‘expected’ – let alone at a workplace.
    As for whether it’s cultural appropriation or not – yeah it is and I agree with her on that too. Irish people have a sense of humour and by no means do I think st Patrick’s is out and out offensive all the time, but it can be a little from people with no interest in the culture. I went to one of the parades (San Fran) this year and it seems Americans are a little confused about what st Patrick’s is meant to be about. It was lovely to see families of all backgrounds around me pointing their children towards the Irish dancers, but for the most part the parade was weird unrelated companies taking their staff out for a booze fest on buses with sometimes REALLY offensive things written on the side (were talking about bomb related things, IRA statements etc). I mean I think any other culture would agree, including other people in the celebrations is wonderful, but when it stems from a place of prejudice and misunderstanding it can feel pretty xenophobic. I think it stems from Americans’ crazy focus on race. In europe people are far more nation oriented, we don’t see each other as all one group just because we’re all mostly white. There are differences between even Germans and Polish and Greeks and Italians. In America they’re all “white”. There’s absolutely no nuance. Had this been related to a different holiday I think these employees would have been much more careful about how they treated it.
    I think this workplace we’re more concerned with getting merry about drinking and wearing green without any care about how the Irish girl may have felt. Had she said “happy st Patrick’s day” in IRISH to them what do you think they’d have said? I doubt they were interested in being considerate that way. Or heck I wouldn’t be surprised if this “Irish girl” was actually a northern Irish unionist and THATS why she didn’t celebrate st Patrick’s day. I’ve met several unionists who go to America and they feel harassed by constantly being called Irish when they would consider themselves British and not Irish at all. These are the kinds of nuances that this workplace weren’t bothered at all to be mindful of.

    1. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

      Good point about Europe being more nation-oriented. Thank you also for the background. For those of us who aren’t Irish, it’s really important information. Finally, I’m very sorry you were treated so badly at those places. Hope you are doing well now.

    2. lamuella*

      One time when I was in the US on St Patrick’s Day there was an “Irish pub” near us that was offering two-for-one deals on a cocktail of stout and pale ale that they called a “Black and Tan”. I’d just watched The Wind That Shakes The Barley, so the idea of an Irish pub having a deal on a drink named after the hated RUC Special Constabulary was pretty horrifying.

      1. LilyPearl*

        I was really shocked to find out there’s a cocktail called an Irish Car Bomb. I mean… no. That’s just awful. It’s the total lack of awareness of history and politics in other countries.

        1. Bagpuss*

          Yes, I was appalled when I visted the USA and found that the bar we went to (which claimed to be an ‘Irish Pub’ ) served both ‘Black and Tan’ and ‘Irish Car Bomb’ cocktails and that the majpority of the Americans in ourgroup did not see that as being offensive or inappropriate. I found the lack of undestanding really shocking.

          (I’m English, not Irish. I grew up in the 70s and 80s and have vivid memories of IRA bombings – I later lived in Manchester at the time of the Manchester and Warrington bombings – tese things are not ancient history, and those cocktails are evey bit as offensive asit would be to namea cocktail after the world trade centre attck or the Boston marathon bomb.

          1. Aveline*

            As an American, I’m appalled as well

            Of course, the English view if the Wild West and Indians…

            Even venerable Dr. Who has said some pretty racist shit wrt First Nations.

            We all must do better.

            1. anooooooooon*

              Dr Who has a lot of race problem that go beyond just saying things about the First Nations. I was surprised at how racist (and sexist) the show was after everyone raved about it.

              1. Aveline*

                The 50th Anniversary supposedly had a lot to say about diversity/immigration in England but really, really missed the point and could have been an apologia for colonialism.

                It was really, really galling.

                I think the writers and show runners are all “liberal” white men with zero self-awareness.

                Replace “Humans” with “First Nations” and the Zygons with “British/French/German/Spanish colonizers” and see if you think it’s still a good message.

                Ugh. No.

            2. SignalLost*

              In the realm of not-fiction, when I was studying in the U.K. in 2001-2003, a colleague reported that her thesis evaluator kept calling the Canadian First Nations people she was writing about (we’re anthropologists) “Red Indians”. Which … who does that???? And this is at literally a world-class university.

          2. lamuella*

            My girlfriend at the time was in the Arndale Centre when it got bombed. It was a pretty scary time all told.

          3. Caro in the UK*

            Oh my word. That’s awful. I can see someone not knowing the history of the term ‘Black and Tan’. But ‘Irish Car Bomb’?! Sadly, based on the description of the workplace in this letter, I can totally see how the ‘not okay-ness’ of these things slips straight by many people :(

          4. RS*

            “The term likely originated in England, where consumers have blended different beers since at least the seventeenth century.[1] The name “black and tan” had earlier been used to describe the coats of dogs, such as the black and tan coon-hound. The earliest recorded usage of the term in the drink context is from 1881, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, in the American magazine Puck.[2] The first recorded British use of the term to describe a drink is from 1889.”

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_Tan

        2. Aveline*

          Well, I’ve seen equally offensive stuff all over Europe, Britain, and Ireland.

          Blackface, appropriation of First Nations and American Indian ceremonial dress, etc.

          Two words “old schatterhand”

          Or Black Peter

          And you don’t even want to know about Japan.

          This isn’t an American issue, it’s human. We suck

          1. fposte*

            Yup, good point. And that’s without even getting into the fact that some of the US was deeply involved in funding the IRA.

            1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

              Well, from someone with Canadian ties – the U.S. largely looked the other way at the failed Fenian activity – which caused the British North American provinces to unite in what is called Canada, in 1867.

              As an American – people cringe when I tell them that the United States LOST the War of 1812 (American schools still teach today that the “war was a tie”), that the Civil War was about a lot of other things besides slavery – and that Lincoln only freed slaves in certain areas, etc.

              I have some southern/Confederate heritage in my background – and due to political correctness, am fearful to discuss that.

              1. fposte*

                I’m half-Canadian, so I get you. But it’s just as much a national (international? not sure how much the UK cares) myth to say the U.S. lost the war of 1812 as it is to say it won it. That’s not really a fact thing.

                The limitations of the Emancipation Proclamation, on the other hand, are a matter of record, and you’re right that people don’t always realize them.

                1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

                  fposte = the US failed to drive the British out of North America. That was the intent.

                2. fposte*

                  The U.S. had many motives in the war, as with any war, and the general academic view in Canada is that it was a draw; one fairly common axiom is the U.S. lost the war and won the peace.

                3. Candi*

                  Part of the motivation for the war of 1812 is English press gangs were kidnapping American sailors in foreign ports. (Napoleon was very very active and the English really needed sailors.) Things were still touchy after the Revolution, so that didn’t help things. Claims of ignoring citizenship papers and English soldiers having false American papers cropped up.

                  On the ocean, the war went mostly 50/50.

                  On land, except for New Orleans, we got our rumps whooped.

                  At the negotiating table, Britain sent a knife-level diplomat (see Napoleonic Wars), while the US sent three cannons. Poor British guy didn’t have a chance.

                  Interestingly, the 1812 war influenced later policy when further Canadian/US borders had to be drawn, specifically that between Canada and the Oregon Territory. There’s a reason it’s a straight line and not a bump or dip.

              2. Natalie*

                ” that the Civil War was about a lot of other things besides slavery – and that Lincoln only freed slaves in certain areas, etc.”

                Uh, no. The Civil War was pretty much entirely about slavery. The governments of the confederate states involved were extremely clear and explicit about that when they seceded and when they wrote their constitution.

                1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

                  I don’t want to turn this into an argument, but it was about a LOT OF OTHER THINGS. Note that the 13th Amendment was NOT passed and ratified in Lincoln’s life, and the Emancipation Proclamation was a military, and not a humanitarian maneuver.

                2. LBK*

                  I’ve never really understood the reasoning behind insisting upon the motives for the Civil War outside of the context of a historical paper or documentary; it never seems to serve any purpose but to try to repaint the South’s position as not being steeped in blatant racism and/or downplay the still-lingering impacts of slavery on racial division in the US. Okay, maybe there were other factors, but I don’t think it’s inaccurate to say that generally speaking, the right to own slaves was one of the main, if not the main driver behind the war.

                3. Natalie*

                  We may be using “about” differently – how slavery was handled by the North during and after the war has no bearing on what caused the war, which was slavery. It is simultaneously true that the Confederacy was a primarily pro-slavery cause, and also true that the Union was not primarily an anti-slavery cause. We don’t have to flatten one side in order to add nuance to the other.

                  Regardless, probably best to leave it there.

                4. Not So NewReader*

                  Historiography. How historians look at history.

                  This was a bfd to me in college. Well, starting in high school and on up.
                  In high school I was taught what a rotten country we are. And I was taught that schools used to teach we were a great country, “But that is not true. So I am going to teach you the truth.”

                  Okay. I need to listen. Or so I thought.

                  Over and over and over I heard teachers saying, “The civil war was not about slavery.” Over and over. All through high school and all through college.

                  I thought to myself if this is what is being taught in all schools then that means we are STILL a horrible country. I have no clue why teachers did not actually do their own thinking about what they were saying. They just parroted something a historian wrote in a book they read once.

                5. aebhel*

                  This. It’s not as simple as ‘The North was the Righteous Anti-Slavery Saviors’, but it was absolutely about slavery. The economics of slavery, specifically, and the Emancipation Proclamation was not (and was not intended as) a humanitarian gesture, but the secession was about the right of the confederate states to own slaves.

                6. Candi*

                  I love the people who try to tell me that it was all about states’ rights. The records of the time, Congressional, newspapers, and others, show that the Southern states representatives had no problem tromping on the Northern states’ rights when it meant getting their slaves back -or even justifying the kidnapping of free North-residing blacks. (Historical accounts indicate this definitely happened twice -those accounts being the ones with surving paperwork.)

                  On the ‘we’re a rotten country, we deserve awful treatment because we’re an awful country’ line -it drives me bananas. Yes, our history sucks, from the first boatload of Irish indentured servants (coughslaverycough), to the Africans who worked and died, the treatment of the first residents who survived plague only to die by starvation. But dwelling on the past and grousing about it solves no problems.

                  Learn from history, don’t repeat the dark lessons, and try, in a thousand small ways every day to unpick the fabric of the past and weave a better future. For all races, nationalities, genders,for every human.

              3. Damon*

                “that the Civil War was about a lot of other things besides slavery”
                Well, of course, that is completely untrue.

        3. FiveWheels*

          To be fair, as a child my father had to routinely check for car bombs before driving. And the drink name doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

          It being used in another country would strike me as very bad taste – but in a UK or Irish bar, in the context that fellow patrons understood what living through terrorism was like, wouldn’t bother me.

          We’re good at black humour.

        4. Pescadero*

          I’m not shocked at all… Americans like pretty offensive cocktail names.

          Kamikaze
          Irish Car Bomb
          Hillbilly Kool Aid
          After Birth
          Red-headed S…
          Jim Jones
          Going Postal
          …and I’ve even seen a bar serving a “Twin Towers” shot.

      2. SM*

        Wow, I (sheltered American) had no idea that “black and tan” referred to anything other than the drink. I always assumed it was just because of the color of the drink itself.

        1. lamuella*

          In terms of the drink, it probably is just from the colour. But when you’re making it with Guinness…

        2. paul*

          I’m not sure what the motives behind the name of the drink are but I wouldn’t consider it inherently offensive (unless it was actually meant as a reference to *the* black and tans). Like you said, matches the colors of the stuff going into the drink and a slang name for one paramilitary group in one regional conflict isn’t something that’s going to have widespread baggage.

          Irish Car Bomb though, that’s pretty crass.

        3. Camellia*

          My family hails from Tennessee and to me a black and tan is just a good huntin’ dawg. Context is everything.

      3. Natalie*

        For whatever it’s worth, the Black and Tan drink originates in England, and it’s older than the army regiment of the same name.

    3. Thlayli*

      That’s a good point we don’t even know what community she is from. Many people from outside of Ireland have very little understanding of the fact that about half a million people from Northern Ireland would find it really offensive to be told they should celebrate a Catholic holiday because they’re “Irish”.

      As for slogans about bombs and so on… I don’t even know where to begin. That’s just horrific. That’s like having slogans celebrating the 9/11 attackers.

    4. Cancan*

      In Europe, we fully embrace xenophobia as well as straightforward racism.

      Incidentally, I’m Northern Irish, raised Protestant republican, with family members killed by the IRA. I’ve avoided USA during St Patrick’s Day celebrations, because I find a lot of it to be offensive.

      The only advance I’ve seen is that it’s finally being called St. Paddy’s Day, instead of St. Patty’s Day.

      1. FiveWheels*

        Protestant Republican whose family was attacked by the IRA?

        Our wee country is wonderfully complex :-D

    5. Sue Wilson*

      In America they’re all “white”. There’s absolutely no nuance.

      Oh don’t worry, when you get passed the race stratification, there’s plenty of xenophobic nuance. Maybe not modern European nuance, but xenophobia and nationalism is alive and well here.

    6. LBK*

      In europe people are far more nation oriented, we don’t see each other as all one group just because we’re all mostly white. There are differences between even Germans and Polish and Greeks and Italians. In America they’re all “white”. There’s absolutely no nuance.

      I…wildly disagree? I mean, yeah, we talk about race a lot because there’s centuries of racial unrest that make it relevant, but we do absolutely talk about (or at least know and understand) nationality. Most people here know their ancestry pretty well. Hell, we’ve got businesses that are all about tracking your heritage for you, including using DNA tests to determine it. And I assure you, most Americans have no problem loudly and proudly (and often obnoxiously) calling ourselves Americans. I’m really not sure where this impression is coming form.

      1. Jean*

        I 100% agree with this. Plus, the United States is one country – Europe is a continent made up of many countries. I’m not sure why you would think a country is comparable to a continent in terms of racial/national identity.

        1. LBK*

          Yeah, that confused me as well. Of course Germans don’t identify themselves as just generically European…but Americans don’t identify ourselves as generically North American, either. And either way, race and nationality are two different things, both of which are identified and discussed in the US. Race is just a little more in the forefront because it’s the one that plays a bigger part in discrimination.

      2. aebhel*

        We’re also a melting pot still, in a lot of ways. I mean, there’s the much-mocked habit of American’s calling ourselves Irish-American or Polish-American regardless of how many centuries it’s been since one of our ancestors actually lived in one of those countries, but we don’t conceive of a *racial* difference between white people with Polish ancestors and white people with Irish ancestors. Because in America, there isn’t. Most groups that can be identified as ‘white’ have intermixed with each other anyway; my ancestry is mostly Irish, but it’s also English, Welsh, Norwegian, Polish…it would be ridiculous for me to divide my identity into tiny little sections based on the borders of nations I’ve never even been to, and most white Americans are similarly mixed. My nationality is not ‘Irish-English-Welsh-Norwegian-Polish-maybe some Russian?’, it’s ‘American’, which doesn’t strike me as any less nation-oriented than ‘German’, really. It’s just that Americans tend not to consider nationality the same thing as race, because we’re made up of groups with a lot of different national origins.

        It all comes back to that whole ‘race is a social construct’ thing.

    7. Chinook*

      “but for the most part the parade was weird unrelated companies taking their staff out for a booze fest on buses with sometimes REALLY offensive things written on the side (were talking about bomb related things, IRA statements etc). I mean I think any other culture would agree, including other people in the celebrations is wonderful, but when it stems from a place of prejudice and misunderstanding it can feel pretty xenophobic”

      The only time I have been personally offended to a point of speechlessness is at a bar in Wainwright, Canada, that was next to a NATO training area. Some of the British soldiers came in wearing campaign t-shorts (a common thing with the military) that said something to the extent that they enjoyed killing Irish Catholics (it was slangy and not obvious unless you knew the derogatory terms and that the dates referred to the last deployment to Belfast at the end of the Troubles).

      I remember staring at the shirt and wondering if I would be safe around them because I had a Protestant Irish name (the Catholic spelling is different) or in danger because I was Catholic. Or would they assume that, because I am Canadian, it is a non-issue. I didn’t bother to stick around (which was a shame because there was only 2 bars in town and my students were known to illegally sneak into he other one).

      If I worked for a company that implied that war, torture, terrorist actions and random beatings are thing to promote a particular drinking holiday, I would wonder what type of behavior they don’t condone. The violence was real. The lives lost were real. And no one on either side, never mind those who didn’t’ have any “skin in the game,” should celebrate anything other than its end and the prolong truce. It is most definitely NOT a reason to go drinking (except, maybe, to raise a glass to those who were lost).

      1. Not So NewReader*

        My heart aches.
        I think the boss should sit down and read some books on Irish history. I could name a few that she might find informative. She’d never look at St. Patrick’s day again as a butt-pinching game.

  44. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

    I’d quit on the spot if I were being physically assaulted at my workplace and no one were interested in stopping it. My safety is the most important issue. If you’re willing to tolerate pinching, what else will you put up with? Slapping? Groping? Sexual assault?

    To be honest, it’s horrifying that you’d consider not giving her a reference. Why punish her even further? And you haven’t apologised either? Come on, friend. Please, take some time to look at yourself and your workplace. Why do you find it more offensive that she yelled and not that people were assaulting her? You have an opportunity here to make real, positive changes and do some good in this world. Don’t mess it up.

  45. Nic*

    Something I haven’t seen mentioned is that in Ireland, the color you wear on St. Patrick’s has specific political meaning. Irish Catholics wear green, and Irish Protestants wear orange.

    This could add another layer to the story, especially if she was from Ireland or had close ties there.

    1. AJHall*

      Yes: today, for example, is the 20th anniversary of the IRA explosion in Warrington which claimed a couple of children’s lives. It could be even more culturally insensitive if she’s lost anyone to IRA violence.

      1. Clewgarnet*

        Twenty-fourth anniversary. The street that was bombed looks completely different now, but I still sometimes have trouble walking down it. But at least I survived – I lost a family member in a different IRA bombing.

        I have very little patience with the American treatment of St. Patrick’s Day, and Irish culture in general.

        1. Clewgarnet*

          To clarify, American treatment of Irish culture, not Irish culture itself. Just realised that wasn’t clear.

          1. AJHall*

            Sorry, you’re quite right. Twenty fourth. I think I was getting confused with last year being the 20th anniversary of the Manchester City centre bomb.

            1. Clewgarnet*

              I always think the Warrington and Manchester bombs were a few months apart, and keep being surprised it was a few years between them.

              1. AJHall*

                I think it’s because the first Manchester bomb, the St Mary’s Parsonage one, was a few months before the Warrington one, but obviously the 1996 bomb was so much bigger everyone forgets about the Parsonage one unless they were caught up in it.

  46. MommyMD*

    I think over the top holiday celebrations fall into the category of forced fun. I would apologize to the employee, learn from it, tone the “celebrating” way down, and move on.

  47. Stitch*

    My grandfather was from Ireland, as were both of my grandmother’s parents, who actually left Ireland way back in the day because they were a mixed protestant/Catholic marriage and that was a somewhat controversial thing to do way back when. My grandmother hated St Patrick’s day in the US because of the weird religious political connotations. For my Irish (and very Catholic) grandfather, it meant going to mass. Point is, I don’t remember either of these people being very into the Americanized version of the holiday in the slightest.

    So yeah, I am pretty disgusted and I think my grandad (who was an attorney and handled some HR issues) would have been particularly harsh on your office. She was assaulted twice, once with sexual connotations, and the reaction was that it was her fault. I have a feeling if we heard from her, this would be.more a culmination than anything. If you have a decent bone in your body, you will give her good reference, discipline both pinchers and seriously reexamine your office culture.

  48. Susie*

    The Day of the Dead is coming up in just over 7 months. Is your office going to decorate with skeletons and encourage everyone to paint their faces and dress up? Or does your office consider that to be inappropriate and offensive to people from Mexico?

    1. Insert name here*

      That’s not even close to the same thing. Your comparison of St. Patrick’s day to the Day of the Dead has no bearing. The Day of the Dead has specific religious and cultural significance for people and it’s offensive for others to play dress up if it’s not their holiday and for fun. St. Patrick’s day has none of those connotations. I agree that the pinching was gross behavior and don’t blame OP’s assistant for being upset, but her objection to the holiday being celebrated at work is completely weird.

      1. Not Australian*

        “her objection to the holiday being celebrated at work is completely weird”

        No, it isn’t. Being Irish herself, presumably she’s in a better position than her colleagues to understand what’s appropriate and what isn’t. If they want to behave like idiots that’s their problem – but she isn’t obliged to join them, is entitled to explain *why* she doesn’t want to join them, and is also entitled not to be molested for not joining them.

      2. PepperVL*

        And a day focused on the patron Saint of a country doesn’t have cultural and religious significance?

      3. Hankie Enlightenment (formerly Sarahnova)*

        Do you realise that there’s a significant history of violence associated with Irish history and Irish independence, much of which is quite fresh?

        I don’t find the celebration of St Patrick’s Day as practised in the US inherently offensive, just silly (and 0% to do with actual Irishness as it exists in Ireland), but the frequent and casual invoking of said history of violence as part of St Patrick’s Day is pretty unpleasant. Posters in this thread have cited a couple of examples already.

        1. Emi.*

          Well, I don’t think American St. Patrick’s day is supposed to have anything to do with actual Irishness as it exists in Ireland. It’s about Irish-American culture, which is its own totally valid, related-but-distinct thing.

          1. Hankie Enlightenment (formerly Sarahnova)*

            That doesn’t really explain why the celebration of ‘Irish-American culture’ frequently features jokes a about car bombs.

            1. Emi.*

              I have never encountered that, so I can’t say anything about it except that I also think it’s gross.

          2. FiveWheels*

            If it’s about Irish American culture, why is it green and not red white and blue? Or are St Patrick’s cross flags waved?

            There seem to be a lot of Irish tricolour themed outfits, for a holiday that doesn’t have anything to do with actual Irishness.

      4. hbc*

        I think it’s pretty interesting to claim that a holiday celebrating the Catholic patron saint of Ireland doesn’t have any specific religious and cultural significance. Yes, the separate Americanization of the holiday has been taking place for a couple of centuries, which makes it a little difficult to draw a bright red line, but “none of those connotations” is provably false.

        This woman is Irish. The day means something different to her because of her background. I don’t know if I’d insist that the green punch be cancelled because of her objections, but it would have been a neon flashing reminder to stop the pressure to participate.

        1. Hankie Enlightenment (formerly Sarahnova)*

          Personally I think the green buffet should have been cancelled purely for reasons of “who on EARTH wants to eat perfectly good food that has been artificially dyed green” (I am somehow guessing this wasn’t a broccoli and Granny Smith apple buffet), but I suppose I am probably alone in that. :)

          1. AJHall*

            No, you aren’t. After a bad reaction to food colouring on Halloween many years ago, I’ve always been deeply suspicious of its overuse in holiday food.

            1. Natalie*

              It might be totally psychosomatic, but I’m pretty sure I can taste the food coloring when it’s used in large quantities. And it tastes terrible.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                Yellow dye can nudge on asthma attacks. Other dyes cause problems too.
                With in the last few decades they have had to change red dyes. For a while, I could not buy red clothes that did not run. They had found something in the red dye and companies had to change their red dye. The new reds ran when I washed them.

                I avoid dyes and I avoid feeding my dog food with dyes, too.

                1. fposte*

                  Well, they used to use an arsenic compound to color desserts green, so there’s a great history.

      6. GeoffreyB*

        I’m several generations removed from my Irish forbears, but I don’t think it’s at all weird for an Irish person to object to a holiday where people “celebrate” Irish heritage by drinking Irish Car Bombs and marketing black-and-tan sneakers and icecreams.

        2. Verde*

          +1 on that. Bars that advertise that drink (othat dessert version) get an earful from me every time I see it.

      7. Not Irish, Eats Soda Bread*

        Day of the Dead is ramping up, though. Watch for widespread secular observances to develop in the next ten years or so. In about the past ten years, I have watched it be kind of folded into Halloween-ish-ness (dressup! parade) with a lot of nonreligious, very secular (think Burning Man) type participants beginning to overwhelm the traditional commemoration of a deceased person.

        This kind of dissemination could come in part from simply teaching kids about such important holidays at school without them having a real sense of what the distinction is between secular and sacred in a secular-dominated society.

      8. Chinook*

        “The Day of the Dead has specific religious and cultural significance for people and it’s offensive for others to play dress up if it’s not their holiday and for fun. ”

        But isn’t that exactly one of the reason’s OP’s employee wasn’t happy – colleagues were taking a specific religious and cultural significance for her people and using it as an excuse to pinch her.

  49. amy*

    Yeah – LW1, none of that was acceptable. That may be hard to hear if you’ve been in a bubble of “but we always do it this way”. In most of the US, what you guys were doing started out weird and then crossed the line.

    You just don’t lay hands on people at work. If someone’s become a good friend, okay, maybe there’s a shoulder-pat, but probably not if you’re male and your friend’s female. Hands off at work. It’s a really simple rule to remember.

    Pinching — I have never heard of that before. It’s aggressive, it hurts, it’s not funny. Pinching on or near a sexualized area — forget it, game over. Once that’s okay, suddenly other things are okay, too.

    Given the culture of accepting this sort of thing that you’ve got going there, I would not at all be surprised to hear that there’s a fair bit of sexual harassment going on with employees afraid to mention it because they sense it’s supported by management, and that all they’ll get for their trouble is fired if they complain. If it were me running that place, I’d calmly advertise a genuine desire to move the culture away from that physical business, an admission that encouraging this wasn’t a good idea, a desire to hear about any such problems that were going on, along with a genuine promise to take care of them if they exist.

    tl;dr your employee did the right thing.

  50. Channel Z*

    Another American in Ireland (Republic), and there is no pinching going on, though plenty of drinking. We get the day off, people dress up with Viking helmets, fuzzy green top hats, and green, white, and orange striped apparel to represent the colours of the flag. Just like wearing red, white, and blue and Uncle Sam hats on the 4th–it’s a national holiday. (NOBODY says top 0′ the mornin’, anyone who does sounds like a right eejit.) For those with interest, this is the St. Patrick’s Day message the President of Ireland https://youtu.be/XcvDcz2ppY0

    I would like to focus on the very first paragraph, “we were all asked to wear green…and symbols of the day were encouraged.” Before the pinching even started, this “celebration” was being forced on people, and a legitimate protest from someone who is actually Irish was ignored. This is an office culture of ignorance, and I would not be surprised if the pinching was the final straw of other offensive comments and actions.

  51. Czhorat*

    Is there any way you can reach out to her and see if she wants to return to her job? Offer to essentially give her a mulligan on the quitting and let her start over.She made an emotional choice as a result of being directly assaulted; she didn’t handle it in a great way, but I do think that offering a second change would be reasonable.

    And yes, the two neanderthals who pinched her should – at the very least – get a formal reprimand.

    1. Channel Z*

      I am wondering if the pinching was the final straw amongst other offensive comments and attitudes. The OP doesn’t seem concerned about the pinching, OP ‘s quote “she didn’t understand the pinching” as if it’s her fault! Grrrrrr

      1. MuseumChick*

        That’s what my gut is telling me as well. It’s so rare for people to rage quit (even though we have all fantasized about it) and the overall tone of letter makes me think there were probably other incidents long before the pitching that were brushed aside/ignored.

        1. Czhorat*

          Possible. And somewhat sad.

          I do agree that from the tone of the letter the OP can stand to learn a bit on how to handle things like this better in the future. If it’s one incident as stated, that’s bad. If it’s part of a pattern that’s worse, and something in the culture that really, REALLy should change.

    2. Liane*

      I doubt the LW will get another chance to talk to her former assistant, who hung up on her once already. Not that I blame the assistant. I wouldn’t be surprised, from the letter’s wording, if that conversation went,
      “Leia, it’s Phasma. WTH got into you? Yelling at a coworker, leaving early–those aren’t tolerated at Company. And jokes about quitting are SO unprofessional.”
      “Wasn’t. A. Joke.” Click.

  52. DanaScully*

    I live in the UK and have never heard of the pinching tradition. Personally, I don’t expect and wouldn’t accept being touched by anybody whilst at work. It makes me uncomfortable when someone puts their hand on my arm when they’re talking to me, or even when someone stands too close to me. It sounds like it was the straw that broke the camel’s back for this person and I don’t think badly of their reaction at all.

  53. Irish Mary*

    Irish on my Mother’s side here. Other than wearing a green scarf or sweater, my very large extended Irish family never makes a big deal out of the day. I went to a Catholic high school that was the once connected to a local Irish parish and I’ve never heard of the pinching thing. How silly.

    The employee who was pinched deserves an apology. The staffers who were stupid enough to pinch her need an intervention from HR.

    St. Patrick’s Day events at work are offensive to me. If you aren’t Irish, back off.

  54. Green Tea Pot*

    Irish on my Mother’s side here. Other than wearing a green scarf or sweater, my very large extended Irish family never makes a big deal out of the day. I went to a Catholic high school that was the once connected to a local Irish parish and I’ve never heard of the pinching thing. How silly.

    The employee who was pinched deserves an apology. The staffers who were stupid enough to pinch her need an intervention from HR.

    St. Patrick’s Day events at work are offensive to me. If you aren’t Irish, back off.

  55. Katie the Fed*

    I have MUCH to say on this. In no particular order:

    – Great move Alison making this its own post after the fact. Genius.

    – When someone tells you the way you’re honoring or representing their ethnic or religious heritage is offensive, BELIEVE them. I see lots of comments above about how there’s now way this is cultural appropriation, and yadda yadda. That’s not anyone else’s call to make. It takes very little effort to acknowledge someone’s feelings on this. See also: use of the term “spirit animal,” white people wearing box braids, etc. You don’t have to agree with them that it’s appropriation, but you can maybe change your behavior to make them more comfortable.

    – FWIW, I have a lot of Irish heritage. As such I’m prone to melancholy and I spend much of St. Patrick’s day missing the heck out of my late Irish immigrant grandpa.

    – OP, apologize to her and talk to the people who did the pinching. Next St. Patrick’s day maybe tone down the whole thing a bit and make sure people know that pinching won’t be tolerated.

    -She was probably already at her wit’s end with the workplace. I’ve never seen anyone quit on the spot who wasn’t already halfway there.

    1. the other Emily*

      I’ve seen non-white people wear Box Braids is at the boxing and martial arts gym I go to, when they are entering a tournament or have a grading to attend. I wasn’t sure about doing it the first time I graded for that reason but my instructor is a WOC and she encourages anyone, male or female, with long hair to do this before a tournament or grading because the last thing you want is hair in your eyes when someone is trying to punch you in the face or take you down. For safely reasons Bobby pins or any kind of clips are not allowed on the mats. My instructor did tell me she would look at me or anyone else sideways if she saw us doing it outside of the gym though but that she gets why people do it before a fight.

      1. Godzilla the Kitty*

        the other Emily, I think the hairstyle you mean is called french braids or cornrows or something more like that, not box braids?

        1. the other Emily*

          I’ve just googled, and you are correct Godzilla the Kitty. I confused Box Braids with Boxer Braids. My mistake. I have never seen a white person at my gym where Box Braids.

    2. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      “She was probably already at her wit’s end with the workplace. I’ve never seen anyone quit on the spot who wasn’t already halfway there.”

      I have. I’ve seen people walk out when they’re held up as a “bad example” to others in an open meeting, then the boss attempts to apologize privately, the idea being that “you’re not really bad but I’m trying to sharpen the others up.”

      I’ve seen people walk out when a promised increase or promotion is pulled from the table.

      I’ve seen people walk out when they’re asked to do something illegal, unethical, improper, immoral, or dangerous, or completely outside their job description.

      I’ve seen people quit immediately when they face an unwarranted demotion.

      I’ve seen people quit immediately when they are legitimately sexually harassed.

      I’ve seen people terminate employment when they are falsely accused of a breach of a company policy or rule. And fight back, and win.

      I’ve known of people to pack and go when a random drug test shows a false positive. Next stop = contingency lawyer’s office!

      So, yeah, it happens.

      1. Someone*

        It seems to me you missed the part that said “who wasn’t already halfway there”.
        Katie the Fed didn’t suggest that it never happened, just that those who quit on the spot didn’t like their workplace much even before the incident.
        Basically, that what makes people “quit on the spot” is usually more a last straw than an isolated incident in an otherwise happy and supportive workplace.

        Btw I have to agree with all the commenters here that the pinching was likely such a “last straw”. I can easily imagine that a lot of immature, offensive stuff is happening there under the disguise of “fun”.

      2. Candi*

        In my (slowly) going through the archives, I’ve seen most if not all of these addressed at some point.

        In every case I can remember, it was the last act in a long, long line of subtle and blatant toxic treatment.

        Even more common are the cases where the person doesn’t quit outright -they’ve been looking, they get that offer in hand, and run. And their superiors are always, always shocked.

  56. MuseumChick*

    Wow, I check AaM every morning while having my coffee and I have to say I am stunned by this letter for a number of reasons (most have which have been well covered by others.)

    OP, give this woman whatever reference you would have otherwise. I would also think long and hard about your work place norms, it sounds like extremely inappropriate behavior is being dismissed out of hand. Have there been other incidents like this in your work place?

  57. Insert name here*

    You can’t appropriate from the dominant culture. The pinching was awful and gross and she was 100 percent right to be upset, but none of the celebrating at her work or anywhere else can be called cultural appropriation. Not even close.

    1. Stitch*

      Just to be clear, a lot of Americans who claim Irish ancestry have ancestors who came over during the potato famine, which meant before the US civil war. Their families missed some of the violence or they are too removed to have people they knew caught up in it or hear stories from family. For people who are actually Irish, like my grandad, who came over as a kid, seeing their culture turned into a joke or jokes about the IRA were insensitive.

      1. JenM*

        The pinching was completely out of line and should have been dealt with immediately. FWIW I’m Irish and don’t see how an office party with green food and symbols makes a joke of Irish culture? And nowhere in the letter does it say they made jokes about the troubles in the North.

        1. Stitch*

          No, but things like binge drinking and jokes about carbombs and similar are creepily common. For my grandfather, whose family was torn apart by the IRA (some members in, some anti), who did actually get teased horribly for his accent as a kid, the binge fest associated with the holiday was a big turnoff.

          1. Markethill*

            My grandad was a toddler in Belfast in the early 1920s. My family has always been somber on St Patrick’s Day.

    2. MK*

      Is Irish culture is dominant in the U.S.? Also, even if it isn’t cultural appropriation (by what definition, anyway?), it is perfectly reasonable for people to feel disrespected when others are taking what is to them an important tradition and turning it into a joke.

    3. Umvue*

      I see the argument you’re making, and if the question was “is this racist” I would say no. I sure wouldn’t say that most Irish people living here have a lot of cause for grievance! But I don’t see how it’s wrong to call this holiday cultural appropriation.

      I had an Irish flatmate once, and after I got to know her I stopped referring to myself as Irish-American, because I realized in short order that I knew nothing at all about my “homeland.” Ireland isn’t just an ancestral font of white people, it’s a place with its own living culture and language, and the way we fetishize it here on this one day — through stereotypes about drunkenness, no less! — is just plain weird.

    4. Secret*

      Agreed. Been waiting for someone to point this this out . As a Hispanic woman the constant use of the term “cultural appropriation” for a Caucasian/majority holiday is incorrect. You can find the holiday in poor taste but don’t compare this with minority based holidays.

      1. Yeah no*

        It’s not a “Caucasian” holiday. It’s an Irish holiday. Not all white people celebrate the same holidays. They have distinct and different cultures too.

      2. Aveline*

        No. There have been and still are white subcultures that are oppressed and can be culturally appropriated.

        You are confusing systemic racism w cultural appropriation.

        Not the same.

      3. anonderella*

        I agree with Yeah no and Aveline. I’m sure you didn’t mean this, especially because your comment points toward a perceived dislike for racism, ‘othering’, and appropriation based on ethnicity/nationality/culture, but I’m a little offended by your logic; as a white person of Irish, Scottish, English and German descent, I understand the cultures behind my genetic roots to be varied and different – also, I realize that at one point/different times, all these groups had alliances with / against the others based on some threat they posed to each other anyway, so they are as ‘unified’ in their whiteness as they are divided by it.
        But, that’s my one perspective, and it does not even speak to the multitude of other white subcultures (as mentioned by Aveline) who have been systematically oppressed for History Reasons throughout time, and for Current Reasons today.

        The holidays you celebrate aren’t determined by what you look like (goodness; seems like common knowledge in today’s global society – how many times do we have to hear from someone whose outward presentation is not the sum of their outward/inward/total identity before we stop making that initial judgement?)

        The size of the population doesn’t determine who can be “appropriated”, but it does play into who it happens to, and how. I mentioned before that my heritage is primarily mixed-Northern-European; as a kid, I was *obsessed* with Ireland – every time I wanted to “run away”, I’d start googling boat fares/whatnot. It makes me incredibly sad to realize the fun I thought I was joining in this especially “Irish” of days, boasting of my teeniest of genetic heritage (bc it turns out we’re Scot-Irish anyway, ha) was actually indicative of [yes, in my opinion it is] cultural appropriation.
        We all thought we were making the Irish look so cool (look at these strong, powerfully-willed people who can fight anything and drink everything! They are the epitome of loud and proud, vitality and vigor, BADASS weapons, and druids and hardcore Catholics! I mean, have you not *seen* Boondock Saints!!? Let’s sing another round and pound one back!) not realizing that we were reducing an entire population and culture down to fulfilling stereotypes. It makes me cringe to realize all the chances I could have had to oppose terms like ‘Irish carbomb’ and ‘Paddy’ and the like, but never had the knowledge to do so.
        My point is, knowing what I know at this point in my life, I don’t feel like the ‘St. Patrick’s Day’ madness I’ve participated in throughout my life in the US made for any well-intended bonding, or led to any furthering of understanding a different culture than my own; I feel like I was robbed of what could have been empowerment and enrichment that would have come from knowing about the very real people who came from that place and who made a real change in the world. At least now I know, and can hopefully make a difference in lots of places, even if it is privilege from my skin color that gets me/us there.

        1. Candi*

          My son was researching our family’s heritage on my side (it’s a multi-mix-and-match), which led to him to researching more about the countries and cultures involved (yay!)

          …and he found a record that the first ship of slaves transported to Virginia weren’t blacks.

          They were Irish.

          Later this white slavery was called ‘indentured servitude’, but in principal remained the same. The owners of the contracts could extend them for any penalty or reason, and the immigrants had no recourse, unless they wanted to go live with those who they’d been told were ‘vicious savages’. (Not.)

          So yes, the Irish were exploited and discriminated against in their own right. (And let’s not play oppression olympics on who had it worst. Irish, African, First Peoples, and the Chinese brought over to build the railroads -they were all treated like crap.)

          1. Mary Connell*

            FYI: The myth of Irish slavery is perpetuated by white supremacists to discredit the civil rights movement. Be very skeptical of sources that spread this false history. There were originally two systems: indentured servitude and slaves for life, but the two systems developed into racialized hereditary enslavement for those of African or Native American descent.

            It’s surprising how little Americans actually know about early American history and slavery, but it does explain why bad history like the myth of Irish slavery gain so much traction.

      4. Aveline*

        You don’t have to take my word for the fact that the oppression of Hispanics and Irish are related. You don’t have to take my word for the fact that they have both been oppressed minorities in the USA. You don’t have to take my word for the fact that the history of both groups is inexorably linked.

        You can take Santa Ana’s word for it. Or the word of any of his officers. Or the words of those Mexican officials who continue to honor the heroism of the Batallón de San Patricio. Or any of the Mexican historians who have written about how the oppression of the Irish and Mexicans are linked.

        FWIW, of my favorite pieces of music is Santa Ana’s Retreat (sometimes called Santa Ana’s Reel). It would not exist but for the fact that the Protestant Texans were so horrible to the Irish Catholics that the Irish Catholics went and fought with the Mexicans under Santa Ana. They literally spilled their own blood side-by-side.

        St. Patrick’s Day and Cinco de Mayo are arguably more linked than any other “Americanized” holidays you could choose.

        If you do not know that story or how the ill treatment of the Catholic Irish drove them from supporting the Texans into Santa Ana’s waiting arms, then you really should go read about it. I think it just may change yoru mind on this.

      5. girlonfire*

        I agree with Secret. While Irish people may have once faced discrimination as a minority culture, in today’s America they are generally accepted as part of the majority white population. Appropriation, to my mind, means exploitation of a minority culture by the majority culture for the majority’s gain, while often still penalizing the minority culture for those same attributes. — so, for example, major clothing lines or white artists using Aztec or Navajo prints without permission. Or the Jenner sisters being lauded for wearing traditionally Black hairstyles like dreadlocks or cornrows (while Black women still face being called not “professional” for wearing same.

        The celebration of St. Patrick’s Day in America might be offensive or distasteful, but I wouldn’t classify it as cultural appropriation.

      6. Chinook*

        Any culture that has the nickname of its Patron Saint also used as part of a slang for a police van (“paddy wagon”) was probably not held in high esteem at some point, eh?

    5. blackcat*

      This has changed significantly since people of Irish descent began celebrating the day in the US. I think St. Patrick’s day celebrations in the US go back to the 1910s or so, which was a time when many in the US considered Irish-Americans to be “non-white.” It was also explicitly about celebrating Irish *Catholic* heritage, at a time when Catholics were frequently discriminated against in the US. It was about an oppressed group celebrating their heritage. It has changed since, but those are the roots.

      The parallels with Cinco de Mayo are pretty strong–both holidays have taken on a new meaning in the US, pretty distinct from the countries of origin. Both started out as a celebration of cultural pride among a group looked down upon in the US. Both have been appropriated, but it is less problematic for St. Patrick’s day, given that people of Irish descent are considered white in a way that people of Mexican descent are not.

      1. fposte*

        Yes, exactly. It was a minority pride day that changed as that minority became considerably more powerful in the country and especially in certain cities within it. (Chicago is legendarily tribal, so the cultural associations were–are?–explicitly played on in power politics.)

        1. Aveline*

          It’s also not just about being Irish, but also about being Catholic. There are still a lot of areas in the USA where this is viewed as “bad.”

          Neither Mexican Catholics nor Irish Catholics would be welcome at a Klan rally.

      2. Case of the Mondays*

        My dad still has pictures of “Irish Need Not Apply” signs that were around town when he grew up. The Irish have not always been a majority culture. They actually faced extreme systemic discrimination long before many of us were born. Let’s hope other currently discriminated against cultures will be so lucky in the future that the next generation won’t even know it occurred.

        1. Candi*

          Would it be possible to forward scans of those to Snopes? Their page was basically ‘signs like that didn’t happen’ last I checked.

      3. Aveline*

        Do you know about the Batallón de San Patricio?

        These two holidays and traditions are probably more linked than any “imported” holidays we could choose.

        The Irish Catholics fought side by side with the Mexicans because the white Texans who were Protestant loathed them both and thought of both groups as “lesser.”

        I think the current political climate around “Mexicans” makes us forget that, for a long time, all Catholics were viewed as bad irrespective of how pasty or dark their skin was.

  58. Bolt*

    I think it is only appropriate to give the staff a bit of a dressing down over the pinching – that was eildly inappropriate and I imagine that since she quit, everyone probably thought it was funny.

    Pinching is assault, it doesn’t matter if it was a joke or slme weird part of a kinda holiday.

    I’d also be careful as she could legally pursue some claims that she was assaulted because of her ethnicity in the workplace. (Could you imagine staff slapping a coloured emoloyee with the defence of ‘I did it because she was black’?)

    Next year it’d also be a good idea to tone down st patricks day celebrations because staff clearly took it too far.

    Most importantly give her the reference her job performance deserves. Confirm she quit but DON’T portray it as her just being unreasonable, make it clear that there was a workplace incident that warranted her quitting.

    1. N.J.*

      I might regret saying this, and it may very well be a detail, but since the larger thread is dealing with relatively complex issues of nationality, cultural appropriation and respect for culture, I wanted to point something out. Your example is used with I assume the purest intent so kudos for trying to use an example of why it is inappropriate to pinch someone because they are Irish. I would caution that Irish is a nationality, not an ethnicity, so a claim of ethnic/racial discrimination in the workplace would have problematic legal standing. There may or may not be protections for national origin. It’s still wrong to assault someone based on their nation of origin, as you stated.

      The off topic item is a caution that “coloured” (or colored as spelled in the US) is not acceptable terminology when referring to folks of African American/black origin in the US. It is considered old-fashioned at best and derogatory at its worst. Since this thread talks about respecting folks’ cultural values and how our actions can insult or harm those values, I thought I would mention it as a learning moment.

        1. N.J.*

          Yes, that’s why I stated it may or may not be covered. I was commenting on the conflation of national origin with ethnicity in the comment portion “I’d also be careful as she could legally pursue some claims that she was assaulted because of her ethnicity in the workplace.” As well, as others have said in the thread, it is unlikely that there is a legal remedy to pursue here, even with this technically being assault. I thought it helpful to point out that Irish is not an ethnicity as that would be, at least in my opinion, an approach that would be unlikely to bring an employee the remedy or satisfaction of a legal cause that they would be seeking with such an approach. So…yeah, someone could say you pinched me because of my national origin, that would at least be legally correct by definition of protected classes.

        2. N.J.*

          I feel like I’m being too nitpicky, it just felt like it should be pointed out that the two are different. Probably wasn’t worth mentioning.

      2. FiveWheels*

        On a slight tangent, I find it slightly unnerving for Irish culture to be so linked to being white. The vast majority of Irish people are white but not exclusively so. Simon Zebo, as a topical example. (From Cork, black, plays – usually very well – for the Irish rugby team.)

        1. fposte*

          There are decent U.S. historical reasons for that, though; few (possibly even no) non-white Irish emigrated to the U.S. in the big immigrant waves, and there was a lot of historical friction between those 19th century immigrants and African Americans in many places; that seems pretty unsurprising given the combination of clannishness and the desperation of people in the underclass to survive. Also, immigration from Ireland and other Northern European countries prominently featured in US ancestry was heavily favored in quotas until the mid-1960s, in contradistinction to Latin American, African, and Asian countries.

          1. Gadfly*

            Although a LOT of African Americans have Irish Ancestry–it’s just any children that couldn’t pass ended up being black instead of Irish. With some questions of consent, of course.

    2. Courageous cat*

      While I agree that pinching can be considered assault in this case – this is not about ethnicity, it’s about nationality, and you absolutely cannot compare being Irish in the US to being “coloured” which by the way is not acceptable to say, at all. Nor is it acceptable to even compare the two, given systemic violence against POC in this country.

        1. fposte*

          Yep. I think Sylvia’s comment below does a nice job of outlining why people may react to it in a strongly U.S. forum while acknowledging that that doesn’t mean only the U.S. way is right.

    3. Sylvia*

      Hey, just so you know, “colored” can have different connotations in different cultures. In the U.S., and particularly in the Southern U.S., it was used to describe black people during segregation and it has become completely unacceptable. I assume that where you live, it’s okay or may even be the preferred term, but you might run into issues with it online.

  59. Ferd*

    I have no idea what the punching is about (St Patricks day is not really something we do in South Africa). But I can assure you, if anyone went around pinching people where I work, he would get a written warning.

    The fact that you just ignored her complaint is not cool. The way St Patricks day is celebrated is pretty much like showing up on Martin Luther King day in blackface. 8

    1. RWM*

      I agree that this was handled badly, but I…am going to politely disagree with your statement about St Patrick’s Day in the States being akin to celebrating MLK day in blackface.

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        Why? The Irish were discriminated against when they came to the US (along with Eastern Europeans and others from predominantly Catholic countries) and the “celebration” of alleged Irish culture involves derogatory stereotypes.

        1. Natalie*

          But they aren’t now. The history of European immigration to the US isn’t comparable to the historical *and current* racial inequity of black Americans.

          1. Jessesgirl72*

            And there’s no damage that could possibly be caused by the insidious assumption that all Irish are drunks with hot and violent tempers?

            Believe me, the discrimination is still there. It’s either just not as overt, or it’s been deemed “acceptable” by people such as yourself and the people in the OP’s office who have decided it’s not really a big deal.

            1. fposte*

              Natalie didn’t say it was acceptable–she merely pointed out that it wasn’t comparable.

              1. Natalie*

                And in case you’re curious, I am Irish-American, and Catholic. The idea that Irish-Americans and/or Catholics are being oppressed or discriminated against in modern American in any significant way is laughable, particularly when stacked against the experience of non-white people here. And the OP’s office is staffed with crazy people.

            3. Courageous cat*

              In 2017, there is absolutely no comparison between being a white Irish person in America and being a person of color in America. It is absolutely insulting to insinuate that there is – there is no racial discrimination at play here, and there never will be. And this is coming from a white person with an Irish background.

              1. FiveWheels*

                I wonder if it would suck more or less to be a white Irish person in America or a black Irish person in America.

                1. fposte*

                  Right now? Assuming they’re otherwise pretty similar and well economically/professionally situated (computer scientists, say), being Irish (in the sense you use the term, not the American sense) isn’t likely to be a significant obstacle for either of them. It will also mitigate some of the racial prejudice, because people will adore the charming accent (no matter where in Ireland it’s from) and its lack of association with negative stereotypes, but the black Irish person will still be likelier to encounter random racial microaggressions and macroaggressions.

          2. Ferd*

            It doesn’t have to be about opression. Celebrating a culture and heritage by getting drunk and dressing up like a leprechaun is terrible. It makes a mockery of orher people’s heritage. If I were Irish I would be offended.
            Maybe I’m a bit sensitive about these things because I grew up in a country where it was acceptable to treat “others” like crap. When I was in grade 1 in 1985 my teacher would tell us racist jokes in class. I thought it was funny because I was 6 and stupid.

            1. Ferd*

              I hate double standards. If it’s wring to mock an oppressed group, then it’s wrong to mock any other group. Maybe I’m wrong but I really like the idea of fairness.

              Anyway. The main issue here is that these people think that pinching someone at work is OK. It is absolutely NOT OK! Not ever. I’m sure she didn’t leave just because if this one incident. This seems like a company where seriously inappropriate behaviour is seen as normal.

              1. Natalie*

                No one has said is acceptable. It’s perfectly possible to find this sort of mockery unacceptable, without trying to pretend it’s on the level of blackface and minstrelsy.

                1. Ferd*

                  My point was: you don’t celebrate other people’s cultures by mocking them. My choice of words wasn’t the best.
                  Slapping someone in the face is wrong, whether it hurts them or not. Obviously slapping a small child is worse than if you do it to a big guy. But it’s still not okay.

              2. fposte*

                On the surface, double standards suck; they’re obviously illogical and unfair.

                But in practice I can’t blanket condemn any variation of treatment as being unacceptable, because circumstances have almost never been exactly the same, and treatment responds to those circumstances. It’s kind of like cursing, in that just because it’s a swear word doesn’t mean it’s the same intensity as all the other swear words or that it has the same intensity in other countries.

  60. Well I Never*

    I’ve never heard of this pinching thing associated with St. Patrick’s Day but I had a similar situation several years ago in which one employee nearly got fired for slapping another employee on her butt on the occasion of her birthday. They were both young women, and prior to this incident, good friends or at least friendly in the workplace. They were from similar cultural backgrounds and the one who did the slapping said it was a birthday tradition in her country. Well, birthday spankings are also traditional in America, but no one does it in the workplace, or as adults for that matter, outside of a kink party anyway. The one who got slapped was so stunned she didn’t say anything in the moment, but when she reported the incident, we tried not to schedule the two of them together and the slapper was put on probation and coached on the inappropriateness of touching coworkers. She was on probation for 6 months, and it took the two of them about a year to repair the friendship. (In retrospect, I think the slapper misjudged the degree of social closeness with the birthday celebrator, who tended to be more modest and reserved. And perhaps their cultural backgrounds were less similar in regard to this “tradition” – the slapper was South American and the slappee was Mexican – than the slapper thought. I know if someone pinched me on March 17, I would interpret it as an attack, not as a fun holiday tradition. It’s not unreasonable to feel unsafe and therefore leave a situation when you have been attacked.)

  61. AMY*

    Wow. This manager wants to keep hold of her power over the assistant by refusing a good reference too?? If I were you and your organization, the only references I would be worried about is what SHE is saying about YOU.

  62. Emmie*

    OP: I recommend you punish (written or verbal) the pinching offenders for their behavior assuming you have substantiation (like witnesses.). Even though this was part of a larger occasion, unwanted physical touch and violating a person’s boundaries has no place in a work environment. The normal work rules still apply.

  63. Lady Tech*

    This is a pretty basic idea but there is a really simple way of preventing a situation like this from happening:

    Step 1:
    Don’t touch someone without their permission.

    That’s actually the only step. It’s almost never OK to touch someone in the workplace without their permission. Apart from administering first aid that requires physical contact, you just should not be touching someone at work. Unless she was otherwise a bad employee, you shouldn’t decline giving her a reference over this. It seems a little over the top to quit on the spot for this to me, but if she felt her concerns would be ignored in this environment, and it sounds like they were, it’s hard to blame her for wanting to leave that environment rather than trying to escalate to conflict resolution or some other mediation. The right thing to do here is apologize to her and counsel your staff on respecting people’s boundaries in the future. Learn from this so you don’t lose or alienate staff in the future.

    Also, it’s kind of creepy that a bunch of grown adults are still doing the St Patrick’s day pinching thing. I haven’t seen that since elementary school. I would definitely go off on someone if they did that to me at work.

    1. Emi.*

      Step 1:
      Don’t touch someone without their permission.

      That’s actually the only step.

      This is gold, thank you.

      1. Anne (with an "e")*

        +100

        I am a teacher. I never, ever touch my students—- not even a pat on the back.

        1. Lady Tech*

          Right, its just so unnecessary and it’s so easy to err on the side of caution in these situations. If a stranger pinched me in a bar I’d smack him, so it’s baffling to me that someone would think this is OK to do to a coworker. I high-five my work partner when we finish a project and thats the extent of my physical contact with coworkers. And a high-five doesn’t work without mutual participation in the first place. If I forced someone to high five me or smacked their hand when they weren’t paying attention they would rightfully think that was incredibly bizarre.

  64. Roscoe*

    Ok, so first off, I’m not familiar with this pinching thing either. As far as st. pats being cultural appropriation, I don’t know if I’m on board with that either. It seems just about anything can be considered appropriation at this point, and you just as easily can argue why it isn’t (for example white women doing belly dancing IS, yet white women salsa dancing ISN’T). But aside from that, even if she just got fed up, she still acted unprofessional by rage quitting. There have been many things over the years that pissed me off and I thought about leaving right then and there, but I didn’t. I went home and slept on it, maybe took a sick day the next day. She could have talked to HR, or her manager. I thin if she just decided she was going home that day and not dealing anymore, it would be fine. she did none of those things. Now what her co-workers did was definitely unprofessional, but to react to that by doing something unprofessional, then wanting to get a reference out of it seems a bit much.

    1. Long time lurker*

      Yeah, it’s SO unprofessional to decide you don’t want to be assaulted at work …

  65. Elizabeth*

    To go with what some of the folks from Ireland have been saying about American celebrations being completely bizarre to them, I visited Ireland in the fall and one of my tour guides explained that basically everything you see in American celebrations was definitely made up in America. Green and shamrocks aren’t symbols of Ireland; the national colour is blue, the symbol is a harp. Irish immigrants originally thought the green & shamrocks reminded them of home, but neither have actually been national symbols.

    He went on to further explain that the main reason you can find leprechaun/shamrock/green everything stuff at tourist shops is explicitly to cater to Americans who erroneously think that stuff is super Irish, and that a lot of Irish people think of that stuff mostly as an American import, not as part of their own culture (or even an appropriation of their culture). There is money to be made off of folks returning to the old country to find where their ancestors were from.

  66. Cheese Sticks and Pretzels*

    RE: Pinching

    Tradition or not, the fact that anyone in this office found it acceptable to physically touch a c0-worker in an unwanted fashion is bothersome and I don’t blame her a bit for walking off the job.

    1. Princess Carolyn*

      Yeah, I’m quite surprised that two employees seemed to think this “tradition” was OK in the workplace. I’ve known about the pinching thing my whole life, but I’ve never actually seen someone get pinched. Because it’s not really OK.

  67. Rebecca*

    I love this blog, as I learn something new almost every day. First, I’ve never heard of pinching being a tradition for St Patrick’s Day, let alone any other day. I want to echo everyone else: this behavior does NOT belong in the workplace. Period. End of story.

    Secondly, I hope the OP examines his or her stance on this. I reread the letter, and I’m stunned by the fact that he or she is focusing solely on the fact that the assistant quit. Your assistant was assaulted, twice, and even worse, she was assaulted the second time after she expressed her feelings about the first assault! At minimum, the “pinchers” should be reprimanded, with a written reprimand placed in their personnel folders, and any further nonsense like this should be followed with them being fired and escorted out of the building. Sadly, I think you probably need to reiterate to your staff that they need to keep their hands to themselves. Seriously, even elementary school children know this.

    Please do what you can to help your assistant find new employment, learn from this, and never allow it to happen again.

  68. NCIS Crazy Town*

    I am also Irish and do not care for St Patrick’s Day as it is just used as an excuse to get drunk. I wear a green necklace that day to ward off anyone who might be tempted to pinch and otherwise ignore the festivities.

    If it had happened to me at work, I too would have been very angry. I don’t think I would have quit on the spot but if it happened multiple times, I would have used some leave to excuse myself for the day, because I would be too angry to continue working. But I also don’t blame the worker. Technically, she was assaulted, if we’re going by the definition of being touched/physically harmed without permission. It may seem extreme for the situation but it’s true.

  69. Wilton Businessman*

    It’s high time we stop labeling people by their physical attributes, religion, or nationality. I understand how she was upset just as if the company ordered fried chicken and watermellon for lunch on MLK day. Just because it’s tradition does not mean it’s not offensive.

    Stop asking the pregnant women when the baby is due.

    Stop asking the Muslim guy where his church is.

    And for God’s sake, stop asking the tall people how the weather up there is.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I don’t know why this is so hard for people to understand. Be respectful to EVERYONE.

  70. Bagpuss*

    I agree wit hthe majority that the emloyee’s objections to being assaulted at work are entirely valid.

    OP, as the employer/ manager, I think that you should be takin this pportunity to look at your office’s culture.

    As a minimum:
    – The two people who pinched her should be reprimanded and made aware that assaulting a co-worker is not OK, and that that claiming it was ‘all in fun’ or ‘normal for St PAtrick’s Day’ doesn’t make it OK
    – Why was this employee’s concern abou the inappriate and offensive nature of the celebrationbot listened to? I don’t mean that it should necessarily have been banned complately, but you as an organisation could, at the very least, have reviewed with her which aspects she felt were particualrly problematic, and why, and taken steps to adjust thecelbration and to have made sure that all staff were aware that none of it wsa compulsory and that they must repsect the wishes of nayone who chse not to join in.
    0 consider whether this was the last straw, and followed other issues with the ofice culture.

    I would also suggest that you consider reaching out to the employee and inviting her to return to work. If you are generally pelased with her work then speaking to her, explaining that you understand why she left and that you are dealing with the 2 individuals who pinched her andare willing tostart over f she is also willing to do so, would be n appropriate way forward.

    If not, then you should rtrweat heras you would nay other good emplpyee who left – give her a reference about her work and don’t seek to punish her for standing up to inappropriate behviour by eitholding a reference.

    If you don’t want to ask her to return, then still reach out to her to explain that while you would have preferredher to havecome to you rather than walking out, you understand why she ;left and wil; be dealing with the individuals who behaved inappropritely towards her, and will provide a reference in the usual way. That way, you can at least try to limit the damage to your organisation’s reputation woch is likely to be caused if she is asked about why she left / why she isn’t using you as a reference.

  71. 123456789101112 do do do*

    At the end of the day, my grand-boss (who is from Lithuania – relevant, I promise) said something about me wearing a green scarf. “I guess I don’t have to pinch you!” she said, jokingly. So the pinching thing is a “thing” enough that an immigrant to the US knows about it. I was horrified, and mumbled something about “no, please don’t pinch me.” What I wanted to say was that pinching one of your employees would be assault, but in the moment I thought that would be overkill. I hadn’t worn green (except for my scarf as I was leaving) because it’s not my culture, but that’s definitely not an invitation to assault me. If I’d gotten pinched (especially by my grand-boss!), I would have run off to my union rep.

  72. Argh!*

    I didn’t know people still did that! I wonder if there are other ways in which workplace behavior is behind the times there. If she’d been sexually harrassed before this, she would have been on her last nerve by Friday.

  73. RVA Cat*

    The fact that a male co-worker pinched her near her butt is sexual harassment, full stop. Honestly I think something else is up in this workplace if your culture is brushing this off. For her to quit on the spot like that makes me think this incident was the last straw…

    Let’s hope your office doesn’t have similar plans for Cinco de Mayo where you all run around in sombreros talking like Speedy Gonzalez and expecting a Mexican employee to join in.

  74. Not So NewReader*

    OP, if this happened to me I would have walked out, too.

    My bosses consistently tell me I am a great employee. I stand on my head for them and they know it.
    There is no how, no way anyone is going to put their hands on my body unless they are doing CPR on me or I have fallen.
    If my boss said it was okay for people to touch me for any random reason, I would conclude that I do not have my boss’ support and I would have to quit.
    Pinching kicks things up a notch. I have a strong association between pinching and bullying. So I would also have to quit because the bosses condone bullying.

    OP, you don’t get to pick how people feel about things. And most certainly the company has no right to condone inappropriate touching as no one has the right to take away another person’s rights. The fact that pinching is acceptable screams to me that this is a toxic workplace.

    I have only heard of pinching on St. Patrick’s Day because of this blog. I am a good part Irish. I grew up surrounded by Irish family. No one ever pinched anyone. I would not understand that the bruises on my body from pinches were supposed to be fun. I bruise very easily.

    I see the part about cultural appropriation. I feel that pinching stands on its own as a major problem. The cultural appropriation would be another conversation. I hope you are able to separate out the pinching for what it is. It is unacceptable. Yes, I remember the discussion on this forum about the use of the word unacceptable. Yes, I mean unacceptable in that very sense.

    I doubt anyone there will apologize to this woman for the random pinching. But I sincerely hope that you give her a fair and honest reference for her new job. And I hope you can encourage your company to understand that they do not own people’s bodies. This means they do not have the standing to say pinching is okay.You cannot give away something that is not yours to begin with. All they have bought with the wages they pay is people’s time. That is it, just their time.

    If the culture of pinching is not stopped, I am sure you can anticipate having more people walk off the job. Whether it is right or wrong to quit over this is irrelevant. Some people will not tolerate being pinched in the course of the work day. It is realistic to assume that some people will leave because of it.

    1. J.B.*

      The pinching stands out because it is clearly assault. But I’m thinking of all the other “office culture” things that go on at work, and how pinching is probably the tip of the iceberg.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        OP has several problems running concurrently at her company. The pinching jumped at me because that was the last straw for this employee. I think that OP needs to get the pinching under control today. This means an announcement that anyone who pinches will be fired. And a formal means of reporting pinches. If this is not under her control she can begin advocating to TPTB for immediate changes. She can start today with tackling this problem
        Then OP can move on and deal with other issues, such as rules about holiday festivities and enforcing professional norms.

        The sad part is that OP lost a decent employee and OP still does not see a problem.

    2. emma2*

      One of the reasons pinching bothered me so much in elementary school is because I did have history of bullying from other kids (I had some weirdly violent classmates.) I am also a fundamentally reserved person who is very protective of physical boundaries, so I didn’t understand how I could NOT be offended at getting randomly pinched by people while I was minding my own business. I don’t know how something that could be potentially violent became a casual way to celebrate a holiday.

  75. RWM*

    The fact that she had such a strong reaction (and the fact that two people thought this was OK) makes me wonder if the culture in this office tends to b, uh…fratty…and if this was the final straw. OP, I would hope that the people who pinched her are dealt with appropriately, and that you (or others in management) will take an honest look at the company culture to see if there are shared attitudes/behaviors/etc that need to be dealt with at the root.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I think it’s not wild coincidence that the letter isn’t “The CEO, a 6’3″ former defensive end in his 30s, was pinched by a junior associate. He yelled, made it clear that he didn’t want this, and a minute later junior associate 2 went for his butt because he thought the first reaction was really funny.”

      1. OhNo*

        That was my thought, too. It’s no coincidence that this happened to a woman.

        I can’t help but wonder how many others in the office – particularly the women – don’t really want to participate in the St. Patrick’s Day stuff but feel they have to or they risk being pinched (repeatedly!) like this poor employee.

        Your company really needs to take a hard line on this, OP. Pinching is not acceptable, ever. Especially not when it’s near the butt or anywhere that might be considered sexual harassment. The pinchers need to be disciplined, and the St. Patrick’s Day festivities need to back WAY the heck off to stop encouraging this behavior.

      2. RVA Cat*

        It sounds like the 2nd pincher and probably other men in this office have a chauvinistic attitude the female junior staff. Has anything else happened with your assistant’s peers? Sounds like you’ve acknowledged it’s no longer the Mad Men era only by not having alcohol, when the whole office needs join the 21st century.

        (Also, if you’re in the US, has this behavior ramped up in the last few months?)

        1. Zoe Karvounopsina*

          Not in the US, but a colleague of mine was explicitly propositioned at a work event we were running, shortly after the US election by one of our vendors, and, when his boss came over to make pitiful excuses, he mentioned Trump.

  76. Paula, with Two Kids*

    “Since she was my assistant, should I address it with people?”

    It really should be addressed. The pinchers should be given formal warning that such behavior cannot be tolerated. The whole group should know that you will not tolerate any such behavior from anyone ever again.

    I think if you do nothing, then boundaries will continue to be ignored, and further incidents could escalate.

    1. Long time lurker*

      From the general tone of the OP, I think he believes he needs to distance himself from his *unprofessional* assistant, who didn’t *understand* being assaulted by the frat boys. I can imagine the shrug: “I thought she’d be cool!”

  77. TotesMaGoats*

    Here are the issues in this letter:
    1. The employee got pinched..twice…at work…by coworkers
    2. The employee quit abruptly

    The OP needs to:
    1. Reprimand the people who pinched. You don’t put your hands on people at work at unless they are ok with it or in an emergency. Just like unwanted hugs. The reason for the touching is immaterial. Don’t touch people who don’t want you to touch them.

    2. I would hazard a guess that the pinching was a tipping point and there was stuff boiling up for the employee that caused this to happen. OP you need to find out why. You might not be able to fix the relationship with her but you probably should know what went down in case there are things to fix. And I bet there are.

    As for the St. Patrick’s Day thing…
    1. Was asking people to wear green, really the highest and best use of anyone’s time? Was it the worst? Wear green, don’t wear green. Wear whatever color of clothes to work that you want to wear. And don’t get twisted when people choose, for whatever reason, to not participate.
    2. Whether it’s cultural appropriation or not, isn’t really the issue. If you think the employee was offended by how the company handled this then you need to work that out with the employee. Apologies and conversation can go along way to rectifying those types of situations within the workplace.

    1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      “and remember, next Friday is Hawaiian shirt day”… Lumberg.

      1. SpaceySteph*

        As I read this, an email hit my inbox for a work party that is apparently luau themed and the email ended with “Hope to see you on [date] wearing your favorite Hawaiian attire!”

        Sigh.

    2. Lynly*

      This is the most straightforward and relevant response to the LW on this thread. Thank you! Alison just hosted a discussion about (in part) tangents and repetitiveness and here we are again.

    3. emma2*

      I don’t get the third part either. At my workplace, some people wore green on Friday, but our boss never made it a point to tell us to wear green, or to wear red on Valentines day, etc. This is just a strange workplace. At most, if a theme falls outside of normal office wear (like Halloween), one could give permission to employees to come in wearing a [non-skimpy] costume so they know it’s okay, but it’s still weird to pressure them into it.

  78. Crazy Squirrel Lover*

    LW, your assistant has my sympathies for what happened to her last Friday. Your assistant made it known to you that she did not want to participate and instead of respecting her decision, her co-workers decided to pinch her, like they were back in elementary school. That said, I agree with Alison’s advice. You need to give your assistant the kind of reference that accurately represents the kind of work she performed for your company, regardless of how abrupt her leaving was.

  79. Princess Carolyn*

    Alison’s advice is very good: resist the urge to adjust your reference based on this incident. Even if you still feel like your assistant is in the wrong, a reasonable person (and LW, you are probably a reasonable person) can see that it’s certainly not an open-and-shut case. It’s easy to get stuck in the “boss” headspace of “Quitting without notice is never ok!!” and forget to examine things from the employee’s perspective.

    I also agree with the suggestion to reach out and apologize – first, because that’s the kind thing to do. Second, because it could help shape the things your assistant says about your company to other people, including potential employees or clients.

  80. Detective Amy Santiago*

    It’s really disheartening to see how many commenters are arguing that the American celebration of St. Patrick’s Day isn’t cultural appropriation over the voices of actual Irish people who are saying it is. If you are not a member of a specific group, you don’t get to decide what that group finds offensive.

    1. Roscoe*

      True, but the question is how many people have to find it offensive before its a problem. You can always find a couple of people offended by anything. Most of the actual Irish people (like parents were born in Ireland) don’t find it offensive. So I think it comes down to for every Irish person who says it is cultural appropriation, if you have 3-4 that say its not, where is the line drawn?

      1. emma2*

        I’m not drawing conclusions from this, but I have two Irish friends (like, actually from Ireland) who don’t mind celebrating it in the U.S. Once of them is very indifferent to it, but not offended, and the other likes any excuse to drink.

    2. Myrin*

      I can only guess here because I’m not American and don’t live in the US but I feel like for many people, “cultural appropriation” needs to have a “race” factor to actually be called that because it’s, as far as I can tell, an American-coined expression where race has this very different standing compared to in Europe, for example.

      I was really “happy” when I first heard of this expression because it gave words to my feelings of unease and offence when people from my country but not my specific area and culture wear our traditional garments, mock our dialect, etc. But then I saw definitions that said that race must factor in somewhere for it to be “proper” cultural appropriation. Which is not the case in my example; we’re all white Germans but of vastly different cultural and historical backgrounds. Others say that oppression must feature somewhere. Others say it’s something that can only be used in an American context anyway. So when all these different viewpoints and understandings of a term that, as far as I can see, is relatively recent and doesn’t have an “official” definition, collide like they do here, it’s probably hard for people on all sides to clear their thoughts and understand and differ between varying situation.

      1. TL -*

        I don’t think it has a have a race factor – it would be cultural appropriation if I decided to take on Russian holidays, or Jewish ones – but it’s a much more complicated picture when you’re talking about descendants of immigrants.

          1. AKJ*

            Well, regardless of whether or not people think we’re *entitled* to one, we definitely have one.

          1. Gadfly*

            Well, if the Irish American Culture is to celebrate via ugly stereotypes about the Irish, I think they (and anyone who dislikes ugly stereotypes) do still get to be offended by it. Just because it is part of someone’s culture doesn’t mean it can’t be a legitimate problem for others.

        3. AD*

          If you are not a member of a specific group, you don’t get to decide what that group finds offensive.

          Amy, you’re making some pretty heavy-handed comments on what is/isn’t of a particular culture that are irksome. It’s not really any individual’s place to be an arbiter of cultural authenticity.

      2. animaniactoo*

        I think there’s a strong argument to be made that if you’re a few generations removed from the people who actually lived in the country, it’s your background, but it’s not you. I think that the people who actually still live(d) there and celebrate it get the strongest say in whether it is appropriation in their eyes or not.

        1. Emi.*

          But the way you and other people with your background have developed in your new country can be its own cultural tradition, and people in the old country have even less claim on that than you do on the old country.

          1. TL -*

            Yes, this! People are not going to Ireland and telling the Irish how to celebrate; people aren’t even pulling over current Irish practices. Irish-American people are saying, “This is how we celebrate an Irish-American holiday.”

        2. fposte*

          I’m not sure I go with that, but I’m also not sure there’s going to be a general rule that works here due to how varied holidays are. I don’t think Americans need to change their Christmas celebrations because of what Israelis or Turks think of them (depending on how we’re choosing the origin). I think people of American descent in Liberia can celebrate Thanksgiving whenever and however they please. And do you really want to suggest Kwanzaa is culturally appropriative because it involves Swahili and draws on African elements?

          I think cultural appropriation is definitely a thing and can be a problem, but it’s not the same thing as cultural practices extending beyond the bounds of their country of origin (assuming that can even be determined). Diaspora cultures such as the Irish Americans do often link to what’s left behind in food, in holidays, in music, while often adapting these in ways that reflect their new surroundings. I can’t see how that would be a problematic use without requiring that old melting pot myth, where once you came to a new country you had to assimilate and let go everything related to your origins.

          1. TL -*

            This is what’s bothering me about this argument; it’s saying that at a certain point you lose the “rights” to your holiday – to decide what to do with it, whether to share it or change it or shape it to your new culture. And if your new culture decides to embrace some of your old culture, after you’ve *shared* it, and still prioritizing the immigrants’ descendants voices in the celebration, that’s somehow not okay because after some set number of generations in American, you’ve lost the rights to your cultural heritage?

            1. fposte*

              That’s why I thought it was interesting to consider food and music along with the holiday, because I think they hit at our impulses in different places.

              But I also think we’re in an interesting place right now with culture, in that we’re realizing that majorities have had a pattern of excavating and copying what they like from underpowered cultures while screwing over the people in those cultures, and I think there’s an honorable attempt to push the pendulum the other way. But especially in a country like the U.S., the effect tends to be an implied focus on ethnic purity that can be a problem in its own right, and it’s also, I think, culturally impoverishing. I think it’s worth searching for ways to share, expand, adopt, and adapt cultural practice that can be differentiated from appropriation.

              1. TL -*

                I have to say this really bothers me because the most recent ancestors that immigrated in my family were over 100 years ago and family lore says we have Mayflower ancestors.
                At this point, pretty much everything that is my family’s culture on any side is culturally appropriated by this definition. Even though we would have only taken it from our parents.

                1. fposte*

                  Heh–I was thinking that because I’m an adoptee that means I’d be appropriating any holiday.

      3. Chinook*

        “What about those people who are Irish American?”

        They get to celebrate their culture without telling an Irish person they are doing it wrong.

        1. TL -*

          Indeed, but that doesn’t mean the Irish person has any right to tell an Irish American person they’re doing it wrong either. (Irish car bombs type names of things aside, for reasons I stated elsewhere.)

          They shouldn’t have treated the employee like they did, absolutely. They were 100% in the wrong.

    4. Emi.*

      But it’s not cultural appropriation of Irish culture. It’s its own thing: Irish-American culture. I know tons of Irish-Americans (including, like, my own family) who celebrate St. Patrick’s Day. No one thinks it’s how it’s done in Ireland, and no one cares, because that was never the goal in the first place.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        If Irish-American people choose to celebrate the holiday that way, then that’s fine. If an Irish or Irish-American person tells a group of non-Irish/Irish-American people that they find the celebration offensive, the non-Irish/Irish-American people should respect that.

        There are plenty of Irish-American people in this post saying that they find it offensive that the holiday is essentially an excuse to binge drink and reinforce the stereotype that Irish people are all drunks. I’m not going to discount them.

        1. fposte*

          In Ireland, sure. In the U.S.? You’re going to bail on Christmas if the Middle East thinks you do it wrong?

        2. TL -*

          Well, the employee could have been the only Irish person but not the only Irish-American person. Or she could’ve been the only Irish-American person or the only Irish person and there could have been a lack of Irish-American people. There are also a lot of Irish-American voices here saying that they do celebrate, and they like the holiday.

          Either way, Irish voices don’t get generally privileged over Irish-American ones when it comes to an American holiday. Though the outrage about Irish car bombs/black and tans/IRA comments is warranted; that’s very much a reflection on recent/current Irish culture and not a product of Irish immigration and settling in America.

        3. Emi.*

          If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that Irish-Irish people get to tell Irish-American people how to celebrate St. Patrick’s Day in the US. Is that what you’re saying? Because I definitely disagree with that.

        4. RVA Cat*

          Thing is, all she wanted to do was opt out because she found it offensive – she wasn’t trying to shut everyone else down. Instead she was *forced* to participate and pinched, which is inappropriate anyway but especially in an intimate area by a male co-worker.

      2. GeoffreyB*

        “Irish-American is its own thing” is partly true, but it’s an over-simplification.

        We’re not talking about two branches of a family that separated 200 years ago and lost contact and now share nothing but a few surnames and a tendency to red hair. Irish-Irish and Irish-American cultures have been in contact throughout that process, and the connection is important.

        That’s why Irish Americans were an important source of funds and arms for Irish-Irish terrorism (google “NORAID” if you want the history; I suspect you’d find a lot of NORAID donors celebrating St. Patrick’s Day this and every year) and it’s why American St. Patrick’s Day has cocktails and merchandise named for Irish-Ireland’s terrorist history.

        So while the existence of Irish-American culture as its own thing is relevant here, it’s not a free pass to ignore how Irish-Irish people feel about the American celebration.

    5. Katie the Fed*

      I’m not even sure “cultural appropriation” is the right word. But I do find the spectacle that is St. Patrick’s day to be very, very uncomfortable, especially when celebrated by people who have absolutely no connection to Ireland or Irish-American traditions.

      1. fposte*

        I think, like New Year’s Eve, it’s a descendent of Saturnalia. It also resembles the way Christmas and Easter have grafted together traditions from different religions and secular impulses. American St. Patrick’s Day is kind of the drunken equivalent of the Easter bunny–doesn’t really attach to the named holiday very well, but there’s enough historical resonance and satisfaction that it’s hanging around.

    6. MuseumChick*

      It’s an interesting question for me. My family is (according to family lore and what my relatives have been able to find out researching our family history) is almost 100% Irish back to the beginning of time. A fact that many of my relatives are rather proud of. One branch of the family came to American sometime in the early 1700s the other over 100 years later. Growing up I was raised to be very proud of my Irish heritage, and it was my family, so proud of their Irish heritage that taught me about wearing green and pitching on Saint Patrick’s day. They also took a sense of pride in everyone “wanting to be Irish” on Saint Patrick’s day (think my Big Fat Greek Wedding when the dad says there are two types of people, Greeks and those who wish they were Greek).

      I never occurred to me until much latter that this wasn’t how people who live in Ireland celebrate. In my mind growing up my family was Irish, we were very proud of being Irish, and that was how you celebrated being Irish.

      So, was my family “culturally appropriating” Irish culture?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I am wondering what that says about anyone feeling a connection to other people in other countries. Is feeling a connection wrong, also?
        I do agree that the stereotyping is wrong. However, I am almost getting a sense of if I say my family came from Ireland, I have angered or offended people. There is almost an extreme going on where it appears that love for a country that generated my ancestors is unwelcomed or not wanted. So while I understand the concern about cultural appropriation, I also am unable to deny that this is my heritage, this is where my family comes from.

        Decades ago I wrote someone in Ireland asking for information on my ancestors. I never got an answer. It was about ten years ago that I read of the animosity towards Americans who write folks in Ireland to find out about their family. This was all very disheartening to see so much contempt. Many people like to know where their ancestors came from, what their living conditions were like and what their ancestor did. It’s just human nature to want to learn.

        1. MiaMia*

          Wait, you just up and wrote to some random person? I could understand writing to an organization that does genealogy research or has historical records you’d like access to, or something, but I have to say, if someone I didn’t know wrote me out of the blue asking for family info because we supposedly shared a distant relative or had the same last name, I’d never reply either. That is beyond creepy and invasive.

    7. JenM*

      I’m Irish and I simply don’t see it as cultural appropriation. The parades, the green everything… that all started in America. It’s an Irish American tradition. So I might roll my eyes at it but I don’t see it as my culture.

    8. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m not going to argue with people who are apparently hell bent on defending their binge drinking holiday.

      OP, please respect the opinions of people from specific cultures/backgrounds when you’re planning office events around those culture/backgrounds.

      1. fposte*

        Oh, come on–consider the possibility that people who don’t see it the way you do may have reasons beyond being hell bent on defending their drinking. Hell, my Irish side is all Methodist.

      2. Emi.*

        That’s unfair. There’s a lot more to Irish-American St. Patrick’s Day than binge-drinking (like, y’know, all of the non-alcoholic foods and drinks served at this office party), and no one here is defending binge-drinking specifically. We’re defending the right of Irish-Americans to develop their/our own cultural traditions distinct from those practiced in Ireland, and to share them with their/our friends if we feel like it.

        1. AD*

          Exactly.

          I love how a few weeks ago, all sorts of AAM commenters were incredibly patronizing towards the African-American OP whose direct report was incorrectly accused of racism (they knew racism better than he did, apparently), and here today a select few are throwing down the gauntlet and unilaterally dismissing major components of Irish-American tradition.

      3. TL -*

        I don’t drink on St. Patty’s day and indeed avoid those places where people are – not my scene.
        I’m also technically Irish-American to some degree, if only because I have an Irish last name.

    9. Kate*

      Um, as an Irish-American person of pretty recent descent, Irish people don’t get to tell Irish-Americans how to celebrate St. Patrick’s Day in America. This isn’t about cultural appropriation. This is about two countries that share a holiday and celebrate it differently. Like Christmas in different countries, no one is doing it “wrong”, just differently. And there is a fair amount of history behind why the American St. Patrick’s Day is the way it is. It is actually really interesting to read about.

  81. BethRA*

    Co-signing the last few posters who encouraged a good, hard look at your company culture in addition to giving your assistant a good reference and an apology. Even putting aside the issue of whether your St. Patrick’s Day festivities amounted to cultural appropriation, you have an environment where people not only think it’s ok to pinch each other in the office, but to continue doing so after someone has objected to that behavior. That’s not normal, or at least it shouldn’t be.

  82. Allison*

    It seems like the St. Patrick’s Day festivities were forced on people, asking that everyone wear green and attend a themed lunch, and that alone may have a) put the assistant in a bad mood from the beginning and b) made people think it was okay to “playfully” hassle anyone not participating, and some people took that too far*. It would have been better to let people know that festive attire was allowed, but not required, and then served a regular lunch (with Irish and non-Irish options) with maybe shamrock cookies and green cupcakes for desert. Or let people leave early and host an optional happy hour. For every holiday you think is fun, someone is going to find it annoying, and no one should be made to feel like they have to celebrate any holiday at work.

    *to be clear, I’m with everyone else that pinching isn’t okay at work.

    I also wonder if people felt okay to treat her that way because she was “just” your assistant, OP. We still seem to think that assistant, at least female ones, aren’t worthy of respect – they are there to serve, and put up with all kinds of nonsense. Would they have pinched her if she was in a higher, less administrative position? Like others have said, it’s possible this wasn’t the first time people disrespected her at work.

  83. Alton*

    I think due to the firmness of the assistant’s reaction, it’s worth taking a look at the office culture and considering if there might be a pattern of bullying/inappropriateness/pressure to conform. It might be that the assistant has strong feelings about St. Patrick’s day in particular or is very uncomfortable with being touched like this (in which case I really couldn’t blame her). And yeah, it’s possible that she really is a disagreeable person who overreacts and this was a “stopped clock is right twice a day” situation. But personally, I don’t think I would have walked out over this unless I was at my wit’s end. Bear in mind that office cultures that make a big deal over participation in stuff like this can sometimes be unwelcoming for people who would prefer not to join in as much, and sometimes these environments can have a lot of peer pressure to conform.

    With regards to references, I think the OP really needs to 1. look at the assistant’s overall performance and 2. if there is a pattern of the assistant reacting poorly or being contrary, look at this instance as having heavy extenuating circumstances. If she stormed out over co-workers wearing goofy shamrock headbands or something, that would have looked unprofessional of her. But she was pinched twice despite making it clear that she wasn’t a willing participant, and a lot of people are reasonably very uncomfortable being touched like that. It’s bullying, even if it wasn’t meant that way.

  84. DaisyGrrl*

    In addition to the inappropriateness of pinching a coworker on St. Patrick’s day, I think this is a good opportunity for the OP to evaluate the culture of the office in general. It’s telling that two(!) people felt it was okay to pinch someone at work, especially if the second pincher witnessed the reaction to the first pinch.

    What consequences have the pinchers faced? Are there other activities within the office where unprofessional behavior is condoned or encouraged? Did your assistant feel her concerns were heard and respected when she raised them with you? This all contributes to overall culture within the office, and as a manager you are responsible for providing a workplace where people are treated with respect and dignity.

    Finally, I can just imagine interviews for hiring a new assistant. If someone asks why the position is open, and you explain it was because the previous person was repeatedly pinched despite making it clear that it was unwelcome, what do you think it will say to applicants about your workplace? I imagine that answer will thin out your applicant pool considerably.

    1. Susan*

      Yes – to all of this. I agree with others above that this is most likely not a singular isolated instance but instead was the tipping point. There’s a certain maturity level that is missing to believe this kind of behavior is appropriate.

    2. GreyjoyGardens*

      I was thinking the exact same thing. OP and any other managers need to take a hard look at the office culture in general. If at least two people thought that pinching a coworker (on the rear, no less!) was OK behavior, chances are the unprofessional behavior and boundary violations at this company run deep. And chances are that the pinched receptionist is not the only one who has suffered.

      OP, if you love your company and your job, then you, and anyone else in power there, need to stop cultivating a culture of horseplay and unprofessional behavior. Even if the pinched receptionist doesn’t have grounds to sue you, chances are that someday, someone will. That, or your company will develop a really bad reputation.

  85. Temperance*

    LW, a few things that you may not have considered: as the only Irish person in the office, seeing a bunch of people making fun of your culture can be a bit … jarring. (I’m going by the green food and pinching here.) I’m Irish, and seriously, people who say “I’M IRISH!” while wearing a plastic hat and chugging green beers are some of my least favorite people on the planet, especially when they are openly not really Irish. Being touched without consent can be uncomfortable, and when you’re already annoyed, it can be really terrible. I probably wouldn’t have walked out on the job, but that’s only because I’ve never done that.

    In the future, I think it makes sense to have office parties like this, but maybe make them opt-in instead of “everyone bully the person opting out”. I work with a few Jehovah’s Witnesses, who don’t celebrate or observe holidays, and my office is pretty careful to not other them.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      In the future, I think it makes sense to have office parties like this, but maybe make them opt-in instead of “everyone bully the person opting out”.

      This is no different from all those other ‘team builders’ and activities that are discussed on this site routinely.

  86. Delta Delta*

    Not that this makes any difference, since pinching people is not acceptable or normal behavior, but the way the letter reads, it sounds like Assistant was pinched on her way to the meeting and then again just as she was getting to the meeting and sitting down. That seems like 2 pinches in pretty quick succession. It also sounds like the LW wasn’t there to see all this, so it’s coming secondhand from others. I’d guess the people who were pro-pinching and pro-St. Patrick’s Day celebration are likely to downplay the situation, and since they’re the ones who are still around, that’s largely the version of the story LW is getting.

    I am a 4th generation American and I am not at all Irish by descent. I do find the American version of St. Patrick’s Day ridiculous. I don’t necessarily fault the company here for ordering in lunch for everyone if it’s meant as a nice thing and if it happens to coincide with St. Patrick’s Day (although, I hope it wasn’t stuff like dyed-green potato salad *shudder*). It’s unfortunate that people can’t behave.

    1. Alton*

      This is a good point about how it sounds like the OP didn’t witness it, personally. I think with something like this, it would be wise to try to get a more complete picture and get the assistant’s side.

    2. Observer*

      The OP is clear that she didn’t see what happened. But what is there in this description of what happened that gives even the least shred of support for the pinchers? And, if this is the “payed down” version, I shudder to think what the real thing was!

      2. Gadfly*

        The tone is very dismissive of the pinching. “Whoops, butt was an accident!” Meanwhile it plays up the response of the assistant for “yelling.” It comes across very pro (or at least neutral) pinchers while indicating the assistant was at fault.

  87. Lablizard*

    I have a question for the hiring managers out there: if you were interviewing the assistant about why she left her previous employer and she said, “It wasn’t a great cultural fit to begin with. Things came to a head when two coworkers pinched me on St. Patrick’s Day, one on my butt, and I decided to leave” and then when you call the OP for a reference and they complain about the assistant quitting without notice, how would you react?

    Personally, I would think that the assistant was rash and right, and, since my work is no a place where pinching or any uninvited touching happens, if she was the best candidate, I would hire her despite the bad reference.

    1. Abby*

      It would reflect much more poorly on the company than the assistant. I would be upset on behalf of the assistant.

    2. JMegan*

      I would 100% believe the assistant. I’d probably have a polite-but-cool conversation with the OP about the reference, but it wouldn’t factor into my hiring decision.

    3. hbc*

      I’d probably want a reference from a previous job just to make sure it’s not a pattern, but otherwise I wouldn’t hold it against her. Especially if the bad reference includes things that back up her take on it (with the kind of spin you’d expect), like, “She quit without notice on St. Patrick’s Day because she didn’t like our team-building.”

    4. always in email jail*

      I’d have to call her previous supervisor (it’s in our hiring rules) but I’d frame it as “outside of the incident where she quit without notice, how would you describe blah blah blah”.

  88. Nervous Accountant*

    I don’t know if this is piling so feel free to remove…..but Im bewildered as to how someone can read this site even sporadically and still assume (not wonder….because wonder would be “did I do something wrong?” but more like the idea of being wrong isnt’ even on their mind) that they did something right by letting someone be assaulted multiple times in a day? And yes I believe any unwanted/nonconsensual touching is assault.

  89. RabbitRabbit*

    The “she was starting to sit down and so I missed” excuse is nonsense. Does that mean the pincher was aiming for her thigh instead?

  90. Roscoe*

    So I’m really curious where people think quitting without notice is ok and when its not? I mean a lot of people on here seem to think that she should still be given a good reference (or whatever it would have been). But at what point is it really just so unprofessional that you shouldn’t? For example I’d be far more annoyed with verbal disrespect than a pinch. If 2 of my co-workers said something I felt was disrespectful, would that be ok to just walk out on? Is it only when its physical that it is ok?

    While I do think the pinching is unprofessional, I don’t know that I think it is that over the line that rage quitting is warranted. You catch people at the wrong time, and they can be set off by something others see as innocent.

    1. Agnodike*

      It’s unprofessional to quit without notice over a minor offence that’s being pursued appropriately by management: for example, a coworker says something disrespectful and they then face the appropriate consequences from management. It’s not unprofessional to quit without notice when you’re touched in an unwanted way in the workplace and nothing is done about it.

      It’s not “rage quitting” to protect your bodily integrity, and it’s not normal for adults to think that pinching other adults in the workplace is “innocent.” Unwanted touches aren’t workplace-appropriate, and painful touches should always be assumed to be unwanted.

      1. Roscoe*

        It doesn’t sound like management had an opportunity to deal with it though. Did management even know it happened at the time? If there were no managers in the meeting, and they only heard about it later, well its not that management didn’t handle it, they didn’t have a chance. And again, who is to say what is “minor”. If I’m less offended by a pinch than an insult, I don’t know if its proper to say that it was minor.

        But it does sound like you draw the line at a physical thing, yes? IF so, that is what I was trying to get answered.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Why do employees have to wait for something to happen so management can step in?
          There should be clearly written policies in place. Should there be a violation of the policy there should be clear steps laid out for how to report it.

          She left because she knew if she reported it no one would listen and nothing would be done. Why waste the time reporting it and then listen to explanations of how she is all wrong and so on. Things like this can drag on for weeks if not months. More to the point to just leave.

    2. Natalie*

      I thought a lot about them when a good friend, who’s scrupulously professional in general, quit a job without notice.The way I looked at it was that I knew this person didn’t make workpalce decisions lightly. Thus, if after weighing everything she decided quitting without notice was still the best move, it probably was.

      So I suppose my take would be that there isn’t a hard and fast rule, but it’s not something you want to make a habit of. In the same vein when we talk about job hopping here, the recommendation isn’t “never leave a job after less than two years”. It’s more along the lines of “think about this carefully, understanding the various factors, and decide if it’s the right move”.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        My husband walked out on a job once. The three previous people were fired the moment they gave notice. He knew not to bother giving notice. So he waited until his last day and said, “I quit.” The bosses came to the house and kept asking him why-why-why. My husband point blank said you fired the last three people who gave you notice. And the bosses STILL did not get it.

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      The management who is quit on without notice will always think that it was unsupported and terribly unprofessional. If you’re going to write a letter that says “My employee rage quit in the middle of a shift… and I thought, ‘Good on Them! Right Move!'” then it should probably end “…and so I rage quit too and followed them out the door, along with five other people, and then we were all hired by our biggest competitor!” (I remember a comment to this effect, though not who the first rage quit was in the hierarchy.)

      Your rage-quitting subordinate is either furious at you, or furious at your inability or unwillingness to protect them from coworkers/higher management/clients. Maybe they are high strung and irrational; maybe they are perfectly rational and have correctly concluded that nothing is going to change in the office culture, and one last unreasonable demand–and “hold still while we pinch you, we think it’s really funny” is unreasonable–will be the last straw. Downthread is an example of a boss who reacts to all complaints about Carl’s aggression by throwing his hands in the air and bemoaning that there is just nothing to do to rein Carl in, who would no doubt be taken completely by surprise if someone rage quit because Carl wouldn’t take his hands off them. “Why wasn’t the quitting employee more professional about this?” he would wonder, safely ignoring that both Carl and manager were failing to behave professionally, over a long period.

      This is the ur AaM rage quit letter: https://www.askamanager.org/2016/07/my-best-employee-quit-on-the-spot-because-i-wouldnt-let-her-go-to-her-college-graduation.html

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      (Apologies if this double posts.)

      Managers are almost never going to think it was appropriate to rage quit. It means that your employee is enraged at you, or enraged that you won’t protect them from coworkers, other managers, or clients. If a manager thinks an employee was justified in rage quitting, then they should be following them out the door. (This occasionally happens when an entire team quits in protest.)

      If the manager doesn’t think the rage quit was justified–a more common scenario–it’s still possible that outside observers would be firmly on the side of the person storming out the door. Employees can get to the point of rage-quitting because they are irrational, sure. Also because they are rational, have observed that management is going to do nothing, and finally get pushed too hard and realize that self-respect–or here, just limiting the number of bruises–means walking out.

    5. One of the Sarahs*

      I used to think rage quitting was unacceptable. Then I temped at a place with an awful “Lad” culture – sexism, racism, bullying, truly shitty. I was one of 2 women and I wish I’d followed by instincts and just walked out the second time there was something egregious (a room of men mocking the female office manager with “you on the rag?” because she’d asked them not to chuck rubbish at her wastebin, especially as they were bad shots, and clearly wouldn’t pick up after themselves.

      I did the “professional” thing and gave a week’s notice to the temp agency, but had I been even 5 years older, I would have just walked out, because that job was a hell.

      I find it really upsetting when someone who is being treated badly is expected to live up to higher standards than the people who are touching her inappropriately and telling her she’s doing her culture wrong.

      1. sap*

        In that office manager’s situation, I would have had a hard time not responding with “yeah, I am. And I’m saving up all of my hygeine products for the next guy who uses the kitchen rubbish for target practice.”

    6. Misc*

      Whether you should quit without notice should be a careful evaluation of the long term effect on your reputation/income/references vs the short term harm/benefit of staying in that job immediately. That calculation usually comes up on the ‘quit with notice respectfully’ side, but sometimes it won’t.

      That’s not technically a definition of ‘professional’, but even super professional people have life exceptions that nobody looks sideways at (e.g. being very sick and not showing up for work). If the situation is extreme, you can still be considered professional overall. The trick is whether you were accurate and professional in MAKING that calculation :D

  91. Amber Rose*

    Does your company hire literal five year olds?

    OP, you have a serious culture issue at your workplace. Jump on it now before you end up with lawsuits. And do some serious self examination on your reaction here.

  92. Bea*

    I’d watch out with your inclination to give a bad reference. She was physically harassed, you may be getting a call from a lawyer sometime soon. You didn’t take her objections to heart and then get mad she walked out? I wish you’d use this as a learning experience that you cant touch others.

  93. paperfiend*

    Oh gosh, reading through this made me realize just how much I go into “protect myself” mode on St. Patrick’s day! I have a very stereotypically Irish first name (think Sinead, Erin, or Aisling) and when I was a child it was my *mother* and *grandmother* who would instigate the pinching if one wasn’t wearing green. (My grandmother had a bit of Irish blood but more on the level of a “travel to Ireland to see where the ancestors came from” tourist).

    On Friday getting dressed for work I realized I wasn’t wearing any green so I put on a necklace with green in it, so I’d have something visible. And then I braced all day for needing to show it quickly before someone pinched me. Luckily, I work in a reasonable company and no one even mentioned St Patrick’s Day, let alone checked to see if I was wearing green. I guess now I can work on deprogramming myself…

  94. Anna*

    If someone pinched my butt, and I had no faith in the HR system of the company, yeah, I’d probably quit too. That is so extremely inappropriate for work, holiday or no holiday. I don’t think this reflects poorly on your assistant at all.

    1. RVA Cat*

      No kidding. This is the case of a grown man touching a grown woman inappropriately without her consent, and using the excuse of a “tradition” that’s mostly done by children. The fact he apparently outranks her just makes it that much worse. What’s next with this guy, birthday spankings?

      OP needs to take a hard look at their office culture if they’re looking at this as a joke.

    2. Bea*

      Especially since in the letter the writer is all “he didn’t aim for her butt but got it anyways.” Just brushing off the assault as an accident sends chills down my spine. Of course she quit and didn’t just complain, nobody cares there!

  95. jebly*

    Another thought: this could be a toxic office and the St Patty’s hoopla could have been the final straw. I had a “final straw” moment in a past job and quit without notice, which is something I would really never, ever do. But sometimes things can be so bad and you get pinched one too many times….

    1. JMegan*

      Yep, definitely. I quit a job in the middle of shift once as well. I’m sure my manager’s story would be “she walked out because I wouldn’t give her the vacation day she asked for,” but there was *so* much more to it than that. I’d bet large amounts of money that this was the last straw for the assistant as well, and not just an isolated incident.

      1. Long time lurker*

        Erm … That vacation day wasn’t to attend your graduation, was it? Because if so, you’ve got lots of fans on AAM!

      2. Lynxa*

        Yup! I’m sure a previous employer would say the same thing about me, except it was really “I put her on the schedule for the day she was having a surgery she told me about months in advance and warned me about every week.”

  96. Another point of view*

    Lets look at this from a different point of view.

    Dear AAM
    Last week my boss told me that our office was going to “celebrate” St. Patricks day by wearing green, eating green dyed food and putting up leprechaun and clover decorations. I’m of Irish descent and found this very belittling of my culture, so I told this to my boss and declined to participte. Unfortunately, they went forward with this “celebration” and I tried to ignore it best I could. But then when I was walking to a meeting, a co-worker pinched me! I loudly told her how inappropriate it was, but apparently they didn’t care. When I was sitting down in the meeting room, a male co-worker pinched me near my butt: I don’t know what he was aiming for, but I was furious- I just said not to touch me, yet this jerk did it anyway. I was so upset that my boss and co-workers ignored my discomfort with their way of celebrating my culture, but then to sexually assault me at work! I quit on the spot, I was so upset. When my boss called me later to find out what was wrong, I explained everything — and my boss thinks I’M being immature and says she may not provide a job reference! What do I do?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      But almost everyone who has commented has agreed with the assistant – not sure what the different point of view accomplishes?

      2. PizzaDog*

        I think it’s mostly for the OP to see just how bizarre and awful this looks from the other side. If the OP, who’s likely a regular reader, would read a post like this, would he agree with the LW or management?

        1. Lily Potter*

          I really, really hope the OP is not a regular reader! If they are, and they still think this is acceptable, something is deeply wrong.

  97. RVA Cat*

    I Am Now A Llama, but wouldn’t this (and presumably some disrespectful/harassing crap leading up to it) give the assistant a good case for Constructive Dismissal for unemployment?

    1. saffytaffy*

      What does “I Am Now A Llama” mean? I googled it but couldn’t come up with much except a thing about how PMS is unpleasant.

      1. fposte*

        Huh, that’s an unexpected connection! It’s a joke based on the internet shorthand of “IANAL” for “I am not a lawyer.”

        And unemployment varies wildly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, so it’s tough to say, but it certainly wouldn’t hurt to file for it.

  98. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

    I’m from New England. Boston area. Never heard of pinching as a ritual. Never.

    I’m of (partial) Irish descent – but both “green” and “orange”. The only thing I was told growing up is don’t wear orange on St. Patrick’s Day, it offends some people.

    1. Papyrus*

      I grew up in MA, but not Boston, and pinching was a thing on St Patrick’s Day when I was a kid. It could just be incredibly school specific if you’ve heard of it or not, because school children are the only ones that should be immature enough to pinch each other for essentially no reason. (I’m not condoning pinching for anyone – this always annoyed me because green was never my color, and never had anything green to wear on this holiday, thus I was a target for jerks)

    2. Xarcady*

      Both my parents are from Boston, both of Irish descent. And because I was a military brat, I lived in 9 states and 2 other countries before I graduated from high school, and I was exposed to a fairly large cross-section of people from all over the US.

      Never heard of the pinching thing until a couple of years ago, and only on the internet. It has got to be regional or something, because clearly it has been around a while, but also clearly a good number of people in the US have never heard of it.

      I think it’s time it died a quiet death.

      1. TL -*

        Eh, it’s a kid’s game. I wouldn’t mind if my (hypothetical) kids played it, though, yes, it would probably necessitate some talking about what is and isn’t appropriate when pinching your friends :)

        It should not have entered the adult sphere, and now that it has, it should die a quick death there.

  99. Stephanie (HR Manager)*

    To throw in an HR perspective, the wearing of green has significant religious connotations in the origins of the holidays, and, incidentally, orange as well. I would recommend avoiding a celebration that involves the suggested wearing of one of those colors on that holiday. And have a chat with your pinchers about appropriate touching and not forcing people to participate in what they may perceive as a religious holiday. It’s harassment.

    As for the immediate resignation, I would call her and have a dialogue with her and see where it takes you (preferably starting with an apology for the pinching and vocalizing respect for her beliefs). She may be in a place now where she can talk. Even if she won’t come back to work, it would be worthwhile to mend the bridge than let it burn.

  100. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    I hate being pinched more than pretty much any other physical contact. It feels like a major violation to me, and I can’t stand St. Patrick’s day for this very reason. I would absolutely quit after being pinched twice at work.

  101. RobM*

    I’m 100% sympathetic with the assistant who was subjected to repeated assaults here.

    First of all, its not ok to pinch someone without their consent. Ever.

    Secondly, I’m of Scottish heritage and I’ve had a long chat with a few colleagues of Irish heritage about the assumptions we both occasionally have to listen to, and they don’t like the cultural stereotypes that get attached to to them any more than I enjoy hearing jokes about how the Scottish are all misers.

    So what happened here is that a bunch of people mocked her heritage (sure, probably inadvertently, but still) and then assaulted her when she wouldn’t play along. I’d say she’s right to be upset and a “normal” reference is the least your company owes her, OP.

  102. Abby*

    I think the context of the pinching doesn’t matter. Things that happen in elementary school or even among family or friends are often not appropriate in the workplace and this is a good example. It was inappropriate to pinch her regardless of where she was pinch or whether it was in the context of a holiday celebration or not.

    Honestly, I don’t blame her for quitting on the spot. I might not have done the same thing, but I cannot imagine getting pinched multiple times in fairly quick succession at work. This was inappropriate and the arguments that it was all in good fun or not intended to be offensive don’t matter.

    I agree with AAM’s advice. Give her the reference as if she had given appropriate notice and this hadn’t happened. Honestly, if I was calling for a reference for the assistant and I was told this story, it would reflect far worse on the company than the assistant.

  103. Be fair*

    Oh my god this is so inappropriate. This office was completely out of line and this woman is owed a good reference and an apology. She probably has an EEOC complaint too. I’d vote for diversity training for the entire staff.

  104. Dee*

    Someone pinches me once at work, I definitely cause a scene.

    Someone does it again, and management blows it off, I’m furious. I’ve never walked off a job, but I’d be damn tempted.

    And the idea that you would seek out her potential new employer to “warn” them is pretty upsetting, honestly.

  105. Kimberly*

    The real issue is your employee was assulted, objected loudly, no-one came to her aid, and moments later was assulted again in the same manner. I also call bs on the I didn’t mean to pinch her on her bottom but she sat down and I got her lower. I’m willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that this was part of a larger pattern of harassment.

    Not only should you give her a good reference, you should fire the two pinchers, and really look at the culture of your office.

    For reference and in full disclosure I grew up in Houston, Texas. The pinching was totally a thing, and I could be dressed in green from the crown of my head to soles of my feet, and still got pinched. I was then told that I was a bad sport, even when I was bleeding (genetic condition that means I have brittle skin). It was part of an overall pattern of bullying. My Mom started keeping me home on St. Patrick’s Day, until my parents threatened a Title IX lawsuit and criminal charges in 5th grade after I was kicked in the throat the first week of school.

  106. emma2*

    The fact that it happened more than once (3x!) AFTER she expressed disapproval makes her every right to be upset. If it happened by the same person, it could actually qualify as harassment. (Does it have to be the same person?? Feel free to correct me on this.)

    I’m surprised to hear that pinching is a thing in actual workplace offices, or even past the 7th grade. Is this a young team? I can’t imagine middle-aged people going around pinching people and snickering.

    1. Xarcady*

      I think the fact that *more than one person* thought pinching a co-worker was appropriate should be examined. That could indicate a workplace where boundaries are not observed.

      One person doing something like this could mean the company has one employee who needs some training on appropriate workplace behaviors. Two or more indicates that there is something about the way the company operates that is telling employees it is okay to do this type of thing.

      1. Anne (with an "e")*

        +100

        I teach at a school (pre-k through 12th grade) and the students know better than this. I am just flabbergasted that this happened to someone, much less at work.

    1. JMegan*

      I was wondering that too – this must be a tough comment section to read. OP, the good news is, you have a chance to fix things with your assistant – she may or may not be receptive, but it’s only been a couple of days, so it’s not too late to try. And you also have the chance to get a fresh perspective on your office culture. That’s going to be an even trickier thing to change, but even if you can look around and go “woah, I see now that this is not okay!” then at least you’ve learned something from this whole fiasco.

  108. DCGirl*

    I follow the Bangor, Maine police department on Facebook (very entertaining and well written, if you’re not already a fan). They end every post with the same advice — keep your hands to yourself, leave other people’s things alone, and be kind to one another. Words to live by. So, while walking out on a job is an extreme reaction (I probably would have just gone to HR), the behavior that triggered it is completely unacceptable in the workplace.

    For those who are asking about it, the pinching tradition seems to have begun in the US in the 1700s. Because leprechauns traditionally cause mischief, which includes pinching people, the belief was that if you wore green then you would be invisible to them and not get pinched. Pinching people who didn’t wear green was ostensibly to warn them that the leprechauns might get them. Both grandmothers told me this from their childhood, but I think this explanation had died out in modern times and few people know the story.

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      That is amazing advice! I am putting that on my quote board in my classroom and crediting the Bangor, ME police department.

      1. DCGirl*

        Please follow them on Facebook if you’re interested. It’s very well written and very entertaining.

    3. Ferd*

      I can imagine a lovable granny saying “Oooh watch out. The leprechaun’s gonna get you.” and a little kid giggling at this granny-game. And the pinching was probably more like tickling.
      But it’s hard to imagine a grown ass man pinching a colleague and thinking it’s acceptable.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        The alternative meaning of “ass man” is making me giggle. Is he an ass man who is grown, or is he a grown-ass man?

    4. Rachael*

      It has always been a fun tradition to pinch someone when they weren’t looking if they weren’t wearing green. Of course, everyone else was also in on the fun and I don’t remember ever pinching anyone who didn’t want to be pinched. Then it wouldn’t be FUN! (oh, and keep it out of the workplace!)

  109. Christine*

    OP,
    Could you please let us know how you and HR have decided to handle this? If she was a good assistant I would make the effort to hire her back, and pay for the time she’s been out. The people that pinched her should have a formal reprehend placed in their files. Your office showed callousness towards her feelings and dropped the green food, etc. Your co-workers opened up the door of a possible lawsuit with the pinching because it’s considered improper touching. As I child I always wore green because the bullies used it as an excuse to torment you.

    Many times businesses, etc. will have a practice going on for years at holidays, etc. and it’s worked. But when you have staff changing you have different ethnic groups, religions coming in. You need to take the approach that we are a global in many aspects. I have if we put up a tree, we had to put up something for all the different religions. I felt quite strange trying to figure out what religions, etc. were represented by our staff when 2 – 3 people in the office had a fit the possibility of not having a Christmas Tree. My current office we do nothing, because there are too many religious groups in our building and my faculty offend easily.

    OP, you’re had a harsh learning experience. Bring her back if you can, have a talk with your employees about proper touching and sexual harassment. I recommend that you look at how your company / office handles holidays and if more sensitivity should be required. That maybe they need to be tuned down a bit?

  110. A*

    She should definitely not have to endure being pinched at work for even a moment. However, throwing her badge down and storming out makes me give a strong side-eye to her maturity level. Perhaps you’re better off without her.

    1. Ferd*

      It’s probably not the first time something like this happened. The fact that they think pinching someone at work is not a big deal after she told them to stop shows that they have no respect for her. I wouldn’t want to work in a place like that.

    2. Gingerblue*

      I’m seriously hesitant to read that much into a version of events coming to us via the pinchy coworkers and a boss who thinks that retaliating against the assistant here is reasonable.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think that there are times where one can walk off the job and it has absolutely no bearing on their maturity level or lack of maturity level.

      Granted, maybe you would tolerate being pinched or maybe you would have found a different way of dealing with it. However, we all have different deal breakers and the employee hit her deal breaker so out the door she went. She stood up for herself in the way she needed to.

      Employee, I doubt you are reading this. It would be a huge coincidence if you even found this site. But if you are reading know that I and many others wish you the best going forward.

    5. Panda Bandit*

      Because people who pinch their coworkers without permission and the management that ignores it all are so mature!

  111. Muriel Heslop*

    OP, I would encourage you to give her the reference she deserved before the pinching. As one of my students just said, “It’s a lot more fun to pinch than to be pinched.”

    For context, my classroom of eighth graders think that they would probably get suspended for pinching at school and they suggest that “people shouldn’t do things at work that you can’t do at school.” Also, they love this letter. They are on your side, OP! I am, too. It sounds like this is a great learning opportunity for your entire office.

      1. Muriel Heslop*

        No – I meant on the OP’s side. In that: if you really want to make amends and make things right, we are on your side to support you. My response was written mostly by eighth graders, for context. They identify with making a mistake and feeling trapped by it.

        (They will be really excited that their comment got a comment – thank you!)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Classy response. Probably better than my own, actually.

          I think it’s very cool that they wanted to comment. And I think it’s very cool that you showed this to them.

          Will they be back to comment again on something else?

  112. BioPharma*

    OMG, I sent out a company-wide email starting with “Happy St. Patrick’s Day!” followed by my message. Was that inappropriate?!

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Why would it be? I mean, I wouldn’t have, because I’m not Irish and I don’t give a shit and I’m not in the age groups (e.g. 4-12 and 19-22) that really go all out on St. Patrick’s Day, but it’s sure not inappropriate. The pinching and general disrespect for the admin were the inappropriate elements everyone is reacting to.

      1. BioPharma*

        Thanks. I think there’s a fine balance between having SOME fun at the workplace and keeping things so bland and neutral as to not offend ANYONE.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          So, just so we’re clear here, are you actually setting up a dichotomy between “having SOME fun at the workplace” and “not offending ANYONE” here? Because there isn’t. Fun can be had without offending people, and offending people isn’t a necessary consequence of having fun.

          1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

            Also, have you considered that wishing people a happy St. Patrick’s day is not, in and of itself, particularly fun?

    2. Hankie Enlightenment (formerly Sarahnova)*

      Assuming that’s all you said, it’s fine. Everyone, including the Irish, agrees that 17th March is St Patrick’s day, even if they don’t agree with how (or if) that should be celebrated.

  113. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

    This incident is a great illustration of how what can seemingly be a great, chill, friendly office culture can actually be toxic. Offices where there’s lots of pranks and horseplay and goofy holiday celebrations can seem fun for the ringleaders, but if you’re not into that kind of thing, it can be intensely irritating and lead to astonishing transgressions of boundaries, good taste, and sense. I worked once at an office where pranks and Nerf gun battles and Friday day-drinking were the norm, and all I could think was “Yep, five years later, and I’m still glad I didn’t rush.”

    1. Amber T*

      This! Sometimes I wish that my office was more chill/fun/relaxed (especially when my bf shows me pictures of his office’s game room or talks about the fun outside-work events his company hosts), but at the same time, it’s really nice having clear, definite lines of what’s work appropriate and what’s not.

      1. mreasy*

        My workplace is way too chill & boundary-transgressing and yet we foster an atmosphere of mutual respect. This pinching scenario would NEVER, EVER fly.

    2. GreyjoyGardens*

      I agree! I certainly think it’s possible for a workplace to be too stuffy and by-the-book, BUT, I think that “fun! chill! friendly!” workplaces can sometimes mean “no boundaries, no professionalism, lots of pranks, horseplay, and bullying more typical of a middle school classroom instead of an adult workplace.”

      I recall a letter earlier this week where the LW lamented that their supervisor (supervising interns or students) wouldn’t let them bring in muffins, etc. and while that’s a bit much, I think it’s important to have young, just-starting-out workers and interns be aware of boundaries and professional norms, and that they are nothing like college parties or life in the dorms. Some new to the workplace might think of it as No Fun, Supervisor Is Being A Meanie Killjoy, but the end result of an anything-goes Fun Party Culture can wind up with people being harassed and bullied.

  114. AC*

    I don’t blame your employee. It might have been a bit of an over-reaction to have quit so fast, but on the other hand she had made her thoughts clear, and that should have been respected.

    I’m 100% Irish, grew up there, moved here to the US over 20 years ago, and I HATE the way St. Patrick’s day is celebrated here. It’s a much bigger deal here than in Ireland. When I first heard about wearing green and pinching, I thought it was stupid, quite frankly. At my last job, it was a big deal to wear green, which I never did, but apparently I was exempt because I’m “really Irish”. Thankfully there was no pinching.

    My kids were born here, and are in middle school (we’re in California). The other day was a scramble for them looking for something green to wear, so they wouldn’t get pinched. I just stood by rolling my eyes, and told them one year we’d go to Ireland for March 17, and they’d see the real thing, because it’s not this!

    1. Ferd*

      As far as I know I have no Irish blood, and even I find these “celebrations” offensive. Okay, maybe offensive is a bit harsh, but definitely stupid.

    2. Amber T*

      I made a similar comment up thread a bit and it seems to maybe have gotten lost in the moderation queue (or I forgot to hit submit, which is also very possible!). But with regards to her quitting on the spot being an overreaction… I’m on the fence about that.

      Why would someone quit on the spot like that? Either the assistant was erratic/unreliable/a generally bad employee, which OP doesn’t hint at, or stuff has been building up and this was her breaking point. Sure, we can’t say for certain, but given the information we’re given in the letter, I’d lean towards the second option.

      If there were rogue employees who decided pinching was a fun idea, and management put a stop to it, that’s one thing. I’m happy with my job, happy with most of my coworkers, and am planning on staying here for a while, but if I was getting pinched at work, and management’s reaction was “meh, get over it,” I’d start looking. It’s less about the coworkers who don’t know appropriate work behavior (don’t get me wrong, it’s that too), but management’s response of “not our problem.” Since I have a good relationship with most of my coworkers (including management) I’d give them the benefit of the doubt and make my displeasure known, but if this had happened at OldToxicJob, where I was already fed up with so much, there would have been a good chance that I would have left and not come back. So I feel for the assistant here – without knowing her side, I can’t say if it was an overreaction.

  115. Merida May*

    I commend you for writing in OP, because I think it will give you a different perspective on the situation. Just going off of your letter, it comes across like you’re in a mindset of ‘Assistant was being a wet blanket, and while they probably shouldn’t have touched her the reaction was completely out of line – I don’t want to provide a reference for someone who behaves so unprofessionally’. To that, I’d ask you to consider how uncomfortable Assistant must have been to get to that place. People, in my experience, do not quit on the spot and walk off jobs unless they feel like there is no other way to deal with their problems. If she had a history of erratic behavior I suppose my answer would be different, but I do feel like it would be wise to be a little more empathetic towards your former assistant when assessing her actions on that day. Additionally, it might be a good idea to reconsider how different kinds of social events are handled in your office, because there is definitely room for improvement. Perhaps she’s the first person to vocalize being uncomfortable about how vigilant people seem to be about getting full participation, but there may be others who are similarly not happy with the way things are run but don’t feel like they can speak up. Any sort of situation where co-workers are encouraged to put their hands on one another is begging for trouble, and an office where people only feel like they can solve situations by quitting is not the kind of environment you want to cultivate.

    1. fposte*

      This is a really thoughtful summary, Merida May. OP, think about what she’s saying and consider what would happen to your view of this event if you started from a different assumption.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      This is well put, and lands the letter in an AaM archetype–that “Full enthusiastic participation in the morale-building exercise or else” is not fun for many employees.

  116. I'm Not Phyllis*

    I’m not sure I would have quit, but I completely understand her reaction. It seems like nobody was taking her concerns seriously and then when she was pinched, people saw her as the unreasonable one. Nope. No touching in the workplace, and her boss/HR/other professional people should have taken this seriously. You definitely shouldn’t be declining to give her a reference or otherwise punishing her for her coworkers poor judgement … and for yours, really.

      1. Gadfly*

        I might have been arrested, honestly. Repeated pinches, one to the butt? I really don’t know if I wouldn’t have hit back. Just quitting and not spitting in their face or stomping on a foot or punching them or something? Sounds very professional to me.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Fifth grade was the first and only time I punched someone. But the second person who pinched me after I just said not to, would probably be very close to getting slapped. I’d settle for walking out the door and calling it justified.

          1. Gadfly*

            I’ve been assaulted more than a few times as “jokes”, and so am kind of trained to react hard early before I get hurt or put into a position where I can’t defend myself. Pinching my butt like that after being on edge from the first pinch would mean I would be in defense mode. Something would happen to set boundaries.

  117. animaniactoo*

    Upon further thought/reading – OP, before you think about what kind of reference you would have given your assistant before this, please think about how much of your opinion at that point was formed around her actual work product and how well she got along with her co-workers. If there were some cons on the side of getting along with her co-workers, please think quite hard about whether it was a bad fit and whether it realistically could be described as a problematic environment in terms of how your office operates. Then reframe your opinion of her as an employee against that backdrop and figure out what kind of reference you would have given her based on those factors. Because if she was, in some ways, a canary in a coal mine – well, it’s really not the canary’s fault that they’ve been stuck in a coal mine and the singing is something to be listened to, not ignored.

  118. Pommette*

    OP: If you are in a position to do so, it would be worth following up on this incident. You want to make sure that other employees don’t have to experience what your assistant did.

    In the short-term: Your pinchy co-workers need to know that what they did is not OK!

    In the longer term: I’m sure that whoever organized your office celebration did so with good intentions. Still, the situation they created gave people license engage in behaviours that are really inappropriate for the workplace. Is it possible to implement any changes that will keep future celebrations from devolving to this level?

  120. GertietheDino*

    Is it possible that this was the last straw in a series of events? It looks sudden from the outside but maybe she’s felt increasingly harassed for a while.

    1. Horse Lover*

      That’s the vibe I got from this too. That maybe other things have been building and this was THE. FINAL. STRAW. and she raged quit. I

  121. Penelope Pitstop*

    I’m wondering if the pinching wasn’t just the final straw that broke the assistant.

    OP, I’d turn an objective eye on your workplace culture, processes and practices and revisit things in light of your assistant’s reaction. It’s quite possible that there might be things to address that go beyond the SPD celebration. Maybe that’s just a symptom of a deeper root issue. No idea if it is, of course, but it’s worth looking into.

    1. pope suburban*

      Yes. I grant that I am deeply cynical, having been embroiled in a profoundly dysfunctional workplace for three years, but I would be shocked if this was a one-off. The office culture seems to trend a little…less-mature? I don’t get a sense that higher-ups take complaints like this especially seriously, as they seem to perceive complaints like this as the problem, and not the actions that are “all in good fun.” There seems to be a very strong pressure to assimilate, and people don’t seem to take it well when someone bows out, even if it’s in a very lowkey way. Frankly, I would probably walk out of my current job if people started pinching me, because that really would be the last darn straw on a WHACKING GREAT CART OF STRAWS. I suspect that’s the case for this assistant, and I hope that she finds a better job, and that her manager starts looking at office culture with a slightly different lens, in order to prevent this kind of situation in the future.

  122. Ghost Town*

    Re: second pinch: where was he going to pinch her if the act of her sitting down resulted in a pinch near her bottom?

    1. Leatherwings*

      Probably in the back or side. It’s still inappropriate, but I can definitely see how the contact accidentally ended up near her backside rather than a marginally less creepy spot on her body.

      1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

        If she was sitting down at the time, the missed pinch would have hit higher on the body, not lower. So the guy was either trying to pinch her thigh (not okay) or just went for the cheek and came up with a lame excuse (very much not okay). Either way, no es bueno.

      2. fposte*

        Yeah, I was going to lay out rules for acceptable pinching, and I realized the rule was “Just don’t.”

        1. Not So NewReader*

          “Gee, officer, I was only doing 40 mph, I did not see the 30 mph sign.”

          In the first part of that sentence the driver has fully admitted that they are guilty of speeding.
          “But, but, but,there’s more to the sentence.”
          No. Drivers are supposed to be vigilant and watch for signs. This driver failed to watch for signs therefore she did not slow down and now has a ticket.

          Saying he pinched the wrong spot is still an admission to pinching.

    3. RabbitRabbit*

      Exactly my concern. If sitting brought the rear in pinching range, the pincher was aiming for… her thigh?

    4. Ferd*

      I can just imagine the conversation with HR. “But I was aiming for {other body part}.” In what weird world can that be a valid excuse?

    5. Lightly-chewed Janny*

      There’s nowhere. Sitting is as much horizontal as vertical – you don’t go straight down like an elevator when sitting but sort of fold. If he was actually aiming for her thigh he would have hit her arm or rib cage (or breast), so hitting butt is a deliberate ‘teehee I’ll put my hand here in pinch position and if she just happens to sit and hit it then it’s not MY fault she got pinched on the butt’.

    6. AW*

      Yes, thank you!

      Second pincher would be out of line even with someone who’d be OK with a pinch on the arm. And I’m really not surprised that she instantly quit a workplace where a woman can be pinched near the butt in front of multiple witnesses and all of them will say the problem is that she didn’t “understand”.

  123. Channel Z*

    OP, would it have been OK if your assistant hit you with an inflatable Irish hammer? And claimed it was tradition, so you shouldn’t mind? and oops sorry she almost hit your bum, she was aiming for something else
    (Yes, it’s a real thing you can buy in Ireland. No idea why, I’m American expat )

    1. Cally*

      Sadly there are some people that would be entirely okay with that kind of behaviour. I think it is that segment of the population that really fuels this kind of stuff.

      1. TL -*

        I mean, I would find that hilarious and pop my friends with it. They would laugh and hit me back.

        I would not hit my coworkers. Even my actual Irish coworker.

  124. Kristin*

    I had not heard of the pinching until I was an adult, and I grew up on the south side of Chicago where there’s a ton of celebrating (all obnoxious). A friend pinched me and I immediately punched them in the shoulder. Because it’s annoying!

    I would be beyond irritated if someone at work pinched me. I feel like the assistant should get a good reference and possibly unemployment if she applies for it. Not sure how that works in your state.

    OP you have learned a valuable lesson I think and it’s good that you wrote in. Now you will be equipped to handle this next time. Learning is part of life and management.

    Maybe next time to celebrate, just bring in some treats like shamrock cookies or soda bread.

    1. Cally*

      I think that it would even be reasonable for OP to give her the opportunity to come back if she wishes. She likely wasn’t in a good frame of mind once someone pinched her butt – not many of us would be!

  125. Not A Morning Person*

    OP, you can use this as an opportunity to help yourself and the staff reset their idea of what it means to be in the workplace. Most of us have had some situation where we had our consciousness raised due to our previous experiences. Take this as one opportunity to recognize that what seemed to be lighthearted fun to some was offensive to at least one other and needs to become a part of your future awareness. It can be hard to have our behavior or language be seen as offensive, especially when it is an unintentional use of what we thought was “normal and appropriate”. If it wasn’t an appropriate thing to do on March 16, then it wasn’t an appropriate thing to do on March 17. Please apologize to your assistant and ask her if there was anything else that happened to make her feel that quitting was the only option. Also, the pinchers need a reprimand and the whole office needs reminding of what constitutes appropriate behavior in the workplace. You can work to learn from this and become more aware and a better manager as a result. Good luck!

  126. Master Bean Counter*

    OP-offer your apologies to your assistant. If you want her back offer her the chance to take off every future St. Patrick’s day with pay.
    I am an unlucky individual who was born on St. Patrick’s Day. To add to that I had a very Irish maiden name and married a guy who also has a very Irish last name. His ancestors came over more recently than mine. But I digress.
    This is literally the first year since I turned 18 that I actually went out on my Birthday and celebrated. I am not a fan of getting drunk on cheap green beer or being around those who do. And heaven forbid someone should find out that your Irish while you are out. If you don’t want to get stupid drunk, then you must not truly be of Irish heritage. sigh.
    Please at least apologize to the poor woman.

    1. Gadfly*

      My condolences. I’ve a friend who is half-Irish heritage (with the Irish surnane) who has the same misfortune. He loathes it. Especially since it means people generally get him something ‘festive’ like super fake mint frosted cakes.

  127. The Data Don't Lie*

    Wow. Just, wow. I read through this letter thinking the LW was going to ask how to discipline the pinchers or how to make it right with the assistant, only to find that the point of the letter was “If she asks for a reference in the future, how do I decline? Should I let her next employer know she quit abruptly?” I’m floored. Neither of those are things that should be even a priority right now! Priorities should be:

    1. Contacting the assistant and offering the biggest most heartfelt apology ever.

    2. Letting people at this workplace know that it’s NOT OKAY to physically assault someone, even if it’s “only in fun”. If I had a dollar for every time I had to deal with sexual harassment and was then told I needed to “lighten up” because it was “just a joke”, I probably wouldn’t need to be at work right now.

    3. Creating an official workplace policy about parties and celebrations specifically stating that people are not required to participate and they won’t receive backlash or retaliation of they don’t dress up or eat some of the cake or participate in drinking the non-alcoholic drinks or whatever the case may be. I appreciate when my place of employment makes an effort to make work “fun” but when it comes down to it, I’m there to work. I like my colleagues but they aren’t my “friends”. If there is a workplace party or a free lunch or something that’s great but if I have a lot of work to do or a huge deadline or that creepy guy from sales is there, I might decide to skip it. I don’t appreciate Forced Fun from my employer.

  128. L Rose*

    I honestly think that, given the employer’s attitude here and that they just do not get why Irish people would find American ‘patty’s’ annoying, there’s not one Irish friend of mine that wouldn’t have walked away or been extremely close to it. An Irish girl is not going to want to put up with American guys pinching her and excusing it with it being her national day, it’s profoundly obnoxious behaviour.

  129. asteramella*

    Ha, I was going to bring up a similar issue in the next open thread. I am an American citizen with dual citizenship (i.e. I was born and raised in the US to an immigrant parent and I have an Irish passport… I also have a very stereotypically Irish name). I think the St Patrick’s Day celebrations in the US are annoying and glorify alcoholism so I don’t observe the day in any way.

    I wasn’t wearing green on Friday when a manager announced her intention to pinch anyone not wearing green. She is not a peer–she is about 3 levels above me–and she was actually ordering people not wearing green to come over to her desk to be duly pinched (?!?!). I declined to submit to the pinching (in a lighthearted way) and she got kind of upset about me being a spoilsport. I think I may have damaged my work relationship with her a little bit all over not wanting to be pinched.

    I was wondering if I was really being a wet blanket or if this was another symptom of my crazypants workplace. Based on the comments on this post I am now leaning toward the latter.

    1. fposte*

      This is crazypants, and good for you for not buying into it. I think it’s worth taking a hit not to take a pinch.

    2. Hankie Enlightenment (formerly Sarahnova)*

      Crazypants workplace, no question. What kind of halfway sane individual, much less decent manager, orders (?!) people not wearing green who sit multiple levels below her (!?!) to come to her desk to receive physical punishment (?!?!?)

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      No, you are definitely not being a wet blanket. That was incredibly inappropriate behavior on her part.

    4. Observer*

      Picture a fish-mouth opening and closing.

      Seriously!? Talk about abuse of power! Yeah, even if she didn’t pinch hard!

    5. Electric Hedgehog*

      Well, you might be a wet blanket, but wet blanketness is s good method for putting out flamingly inappropriate behavior so good for you!

    6. Anne (with an "e")*

      I am just flabbergasted. Your manager is ridiculous… and weird, and incredibly immature. I am so glad you did not submit to the craziness. Totally Crazy, Crazy Pants.

    7. Falling Diphthong*

      “I was wondering if I was really being a wet blanket or if this was another symptom of my crazypants workplace.”

      A fascinating recurring AaM theme, where the answer is usually, “No, it is not normal to make you wear a live chicken on your head when you write the quarterly report.”

      1. Noobtastic*

        Am I a horrible person because now I just want to DO this? Not to another person, mind you. I have an odd urge to find a chicken and a report to write. But then again, I enjoy wearing silly hats.

        Nevertheless, I’d be a wet blanket about the pinching, as well.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Please say you will print out the letter and the response and give it to her.

      I seriously want to know why she wants to pinch people. I would not accept the answer “It’s fun” because it hurts and it can leave bruises. So why does she want to hurt people and possibly leave bruises on people’s bodies?

  130. De Minimis*

    Did anyone else have a rule where if you pinched someone by mistake [someone who actually was wearing green] they were allowed to pinch you seven times?

    I think this went away after elementary school for me….I cannot believe it’s made its way into the workplace.

    1. Rachael*

      I remember that they could pinch you really hard, but I’m not sure if we did it seven times. We would try to hide the green on our clothes just so someone would think we weren’t wearing green. then, Bam! You get the pinches!
      HA! good times..

      1. Emi.*

        In retrospect, I’m a little stunned at how violent some kids’ games are. I used to play a win/lose clapping game that concluded with “I win / You lose / Now you get / A big bruise,” and somehow we all stayed friends. Maybe we should give little kids more credit for diplomacy.

        1. Rachael*

          True! I remember doing the “thumbwar” very aggressively will my friends. And it was all in fun.

        2. TL -*

          We used to play “Who will finch (from pain) first?” and “hide the chile pequin powder” We were very violent little kiddos!

        3. saddesklunch*

          This just brought back memories of playing “scorpion” where you would lock hands with someone else and dig your nails into each other’s flesh until one of you gave in.

        4. Isabel C.*

          Bloody Knuckles was big at my school. Also asking people if they wanted a “Hertz Donut.”

          The halcyon innocence of childhood, etc.

        5. Rachael*

          We did the “Indian” rug burns (I recognize that name as not appropriate now) as the consequence at losing at a game. Where we would take someone’s fore-arm with both hands and twist each hand the opposite way to “burn” their skin. It hurt but we thought it was hilarious and both sides were into it. We were weirdos…lol

        6. Noobtastic*

          Ever play “Man or Mouse”? You take an eraser and rub it on the back of the other person’s hand, or on their wrist, or on their arm, and you keep asking “Man or Mouse”? If they say, “Man,” you keep rubbing. “If they say “Mouse,” you stop rubbing.

          Anyone who said, “Mouse” before they were actually bleeding was then teased mercilessly, for being a wimp.

          I am proud to say that, although I was not at all popular, and had no social clout to back me up, I always, ALWAYS, said, “That’s a ridiculous game, and I’m not going to hurt myself on purpose, or allow anyone else to hurt me on purpose, and no, I’m not playing.” Yes, I was teased as the worst mouse, ever, but I didn’t go home bruised and bleeding. And I decided I was more “man” than “mouse,” because I didn’t submit to it, in the first place.

          How many people in OP’s assistant’s shoes would have meekly submitted, while dying inside? I have respect for her, because she 1) stood up for herself, and 2) did it in a way that did not escalate the violence.

  131. OlympiasEpiriot*

    Yowza.

    Lots of good advice for the OP here. Totally signing on.

    Also, St. Pat’s Day is my LEAST favorite holiday of the year in the US. That opinion started when I was in 2nd grade and encountered the pinching garbage for the first time. If any ‘adult’ did that to me, there would be serious repercussions. What, exactly​, would depend on where I was and who was a witness.

  132. Rachael*

    OP: Look, I am ALL about the pinching. It is fun! …..It’s fun if you WANT to be pinched and if you are not at work. Pinching should never be done to someone who doesn’t want it…because the best thing about the pinching is the feigned horror of being pinched and the laughter afterwards. The assistant has a right to be mad. (1) First and foremost she made it clear that she does not want to be pinched (2) She was pinched anyway AT WORK by people she obviously did not want touching her.

    As much as I dig the pinching I DO NOT want to be pinched by randoms and I would never want to be pinched at work. She is owed an apology and a reference based on her work that she performed before the incident.

    In addition, you may want to establish a policy about pinching….like NO PINCHING…It does not belong at work. This comes from a lifetime St. Patrick’s Day pincher. Happy Pinching!! (those who want to be pinched, that is)

    1. fposte*

      I can see this could be something like pranking–a game that’s amusing for the opt-ins. How do you pinch fans identify other pinch fans so you know who you’re playing with?

      1. Rachael*

        I usually get a glint in my eye and move my fingers in a pinching motion and look around the room. If someone looks at me in feigned horror I know they are the one. It is like destiny calling.

        1. Rachael*

          My comment above works in a room of revelers. It’s hard to say how I know, but you can figure it out by the people and how they are acting. Are they looking around the room with a smile and pretend nervousness. That’s them! Pinch them! Are they acting normal and don’t give a vibe of being interested in the least. Leave them! LOL.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            Broadly applicable life advice: “You have to have a sense of whether X is appropriate in this context. Then, you have to be good at reading people’s body language to determine if they would be receptive or offended if you tried X on them. Are you bad at judging either context or receptiveness? Then sorry, you don’t get to do it and will need to default to a conservative and more awkward ‘ask first’ protocol for these interactions. No, this is not unfair in a legal sense of unfair.”

            1. Noobtastic*

              Yeah, pretty much the same applies to adults and BDSM. If you’re at a BDSM club, and people are giving off the vibe, you can pretty much assume that they are into it. But even then, that doesn’t mean they are into YOU, or doing anything with YOU, so you still have to either ask directly, or else do some serious body-language first.

              You don’t sneak, or pounce. You sidle up and wink. And wait for a wink in return.

              Some people are so serious about it, that they actually do contracts before each session. And no, this is not unfair or asking too much. It is respectful.

              If you have a group of people who have all declared that they are into the pinching, or at the very least smiled enthusiastically when someone else declared that they are into the pinching, you’re probably OK. But even then, NOT AT WORK. Playful pain is for parties, not when someone is trying to focus on their teapots.

              Says the person who would never play “Man or Mouse,” but knows enough people who are into that to see that some people really do enjoy, both administering and receiving, pain. If you’re into it, it’s fine, but ALWAYS get consent, and always keep it appropriate to the environment.

          2. Kyrielle*

            I hope you’re really good at judging this – because I would give off a vibe of horror and nervousness, but they’d be real. (If I realized your intentions. If I didn’t, I’d not look interested, and I’d be safe. But you sound clear enough in your signals that I’d realize them.)

            It’s bizarre to me to think that some people might actually enjoy being the person pinched – it never occurred to me that was ever the case, until reading this thread.

            1. fposte*

              It reminded me of snowball fights, and the people who shriek and run “You better not get me!” while stealthily picking up snow to throw. Within the consenting world, it’s just a goofy in-joke. (Unless Rachael is pinching harder than I imagine.)

              1. Kyrielle*

                …is it still a pinch if it doesn’t hurt? Because I am having a hard time imagining it not hurting at least a little, and if it hurts, I’m still at “I don’t get this”.

                Probably a consequence of growing up having it done to me unwillingly, by kids, who can be remarkably cruel when they want. I don’t remember ever being pinched for this holiday without it hurting. Some of them bruised. For some reason I obsessively tried to wear green to stay safe each year – and it worked when I remembered. I should’ve campaigned to just stay home instead, given having to watch it done to other kids was better than experiencing it but still awful. (I suspect I’d have been told no, and in any case, a student should miss learning why?)

                1. TL -*

                  I used to play punch buggies & variations with my brothers and we definitely left bruises on each other (we played a little more nicely with non-relatives) and I definitely remember it hurting – and starting it anyways.
                  I might still start it, if left in a car long enough with my brothers. And they punch a lot harder now!
                  I think this comes down to pain tolerance – mine is really high and as long as it’s consensual, I don’t/didn’t actually mind pain games like this? People vary a lot on if they want to play, how hard they’re okay with hitting, and the most important question: Can you frog?

                3. fposte*

                  @Kyrielle–I’m thinking of a bigger, non-twisting grab; I have just spent some time pinching myself to explore what I’m thinking about, because I’m that kind of researcher, and I found it harder to make it hurt than I expected. Obviously if long fingernails are involved all bets are off.

                  I guess it’s mild discomfort, but it’s in the “play wrestling/snowball fight” level of discomfort. I think people who enjoy that kind of stuff are somewhat underrepresented around here, but it seems like a pretty valid culture even if it’s not mine.

                4. Kyrielle*

                  @fposte – Interesting, that makes sense. Not what I think of when “pinch” is said at all normally, tho.

                  @TL – I have a pretty high pain threshold, actually, to my doctor’s aggravation. But it does hurt and I don’t appreciate being hurt for someone else’s entertainment.

                5. Rachael*

                  Well, I know that some people are jerks and pinch hard. I don’t. It’s more of an “implied” pinch. I have my forefinger and thumb applying a bit of pressure on the upper arm, but I’m not really squeezing. It’s just as fun for me because I’m “pinching” someone, but it is not painful or causes pain to the other at all.

                6. TL -*

                  @kyrielle – well that’s why I said tolerance instead of threshold. There is a certain level/types of pain that hurts but just doesn’t really bug me, especially if it’s temporary and came from a non-malicious source.
                  Broken toes, impact from sibling tomfoolery, mild burns – they’re all painful but they don’t really make things unpleasant for me. But squeeze my hands too tight and even though it hurts less than a broken toe, I’m way more upset.

              2. Rachael*

                You are right! Normal people don’t want to hurt others and the fun is in the delight that both parties get at messing with each other.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              Agreeing with Kyrielle, I hope you are really good at judging this one.

              If we ever meet, the look of fear/horror on my face is real. It’s not an invite to pinch me. My no actually means NO, it does not mean Yes. It’s not funny to me. At all.

            3. Noobtastic*

              I thought of that, as well. But most people, doing “fake horror” follow the gasp/horror look with a smile, to indicate that it is, indeed, fake.

              If they stay resolutely “in character,” then either ask directly, or avoid them.

              Also, I’d say that even people who love the pinching should stick to adults. Kids generally are too inexperienced, and too socialized to bow down to authority, to stand up for themselves, and say, “NO!” Especially when a lot of them know that if they do stand up for themselves, and say, “No!”, they’ll get in trouble for it.

              What can I say, though? I like willful children. Not badly behaved willful children, but willful children who choose to be polite, because they want to be? AWESOME.

        1. Rachael*

          It’s the “shenanigan” radar. You only do it to others who are participating. On the bus? No! In a bar? Yes!

          1. Rachael*

            There are always those that mean to wear green and forget to wear it. GET THEM!!! WAHAHAHAHAHA! (pinchy, pinchy)

    2. LawLady*

      I admit that I pinched my husband (really gently!) last week when he wasn’t wearing green. But, like, he’s my husband. I knew he’d find it funny. Anywhere else (even at a St. Pat’s party), I think I’d keep my hands to myself.

  133. AlwhoisthatAl*

    Fantastic ! Take another countries national day, commercialise it beyond all recognition and physically abuse people who don’t join in, then complain about them quitting. When can I buy shares ?!

    1. Emi.*

      Please be kinder to letter-writers, as per the commenting rules (linked above the comment box): “Be kind to letter-writers and fellow commenters, which especially means being constructive if you’re criticizing. If you want a steady supply of interesting letters to read here, people need to be willing to write in and expose themselves to public critique. Treating them kindly makes that far more likely to happen.”

  134. Anonymous Poster*

    The pinching is not okay , which I don’t think anyone would really disagree with. There’s a culture thing going on in the office that needs to be assessed. Some offices really do like celebrating every holiday, and that’s fine, and I can see where that fits in, but the physical contact/pinching thing really is annoying. Given where this person was pinched, that is inappropriate and that employee needs to be talked to and perhaps disciplined (This is something where I feel I’d need a more holistic view of all that went on to know more and the appropriate punishment). I do think calling this assault cheapens assault though, because assault implies the threat of immediate serious bodily harm. This was a pinch. Annoying, irritating, rude, and all the rest. But I really doubt that there was an imminent threat of serious bodily harm.

    This kind of reaction makes me wonder too what other things were going on in this workplace, and that’s really where I’d suggest focusing so that this doesn’t happen again and you don’t lose more people. I’d likely be looking for a way out myself if I were there, because these sorts of things annoy me (Disclosure: only time I’ve been pinched on St. Patrick’s Day was when I was an RA and it was from a member of the Housing staff. I told her I was wearing orange instead because my great-grandpa was an Irish Protestant immigrant, and it never happened again). I can be a stick in the mud, but keep in mind this sort of culture will screen out people not okay with it. Are you okay with the kinds of people that will screen out, and unfortunately in a manner similar to what you experienced? Is it clear to your applicants this is the sort of thing they can expect?

    Apologize to this person and explain that you understand why she left and are taking steps to address it, and wish it could have turned out another way. Maybe tell her what you’ll tell others when you give her a reference to help put her mind at ease too, and see if you can figure out what else led up to her quitting? I agree that there’s likely more going on here that you might want to know about.

    2. VioletFem*

      The definition of assault (in the US at least) includes the knowingly causing physical contact with another person knowing that that person will find such contact offensive. Thus, pinching someone without their consent falls within the definition and does not “cheapen” it.

      1. Natalie*

        I think Anonymous Poster was just giving their opinion of the connotation of the word, not going with the dictionary definition.

  135. memyselfandi*

    This year is the first time I ever heard about pinching in relation to St. Patrick’s Day, and I have experienced more St. Patrick’s Days than I care to admit to.

  136. PizzaDog*

    I’ve never heard of anything like this. No one in my office even wore green on Friday.

    I’d love for the OP to come back to update us about what kind of reference they gave their former employee. They have a heck of a story for their upcoming job interviews, though.

  137. Mountain Woman*

    My elementary school-aged children wore green and fretted that they didn’t want to be pinched. You know what I told them? You will not, under any circumstances, pinch someone who isn’t wearing green. No child deserves to be pinched at school or go to school in fear of being pinched.

    I can’t fathom having to say it in the office.

  138. Critter*

    I feel like there’s a general feeling among some people that quitting abruptly is poor form and absolutely taboo, but there are plenty of cases where it’s justified. It might serve many of us to step away from this feeling, because it’s just not true every time.

  139. PersephoneUnderground*

    Not to pile on, but as a manager you should take some time to examine your own reaction to this so you can do better in the future. Do you realize that someone was so upset as to quit without notice over something, and your first impulse was to blame the victim? Maybe you should think about if you have overly punitive instincts as a boss/manager, or otherwise are inclined to err on the side of blaming an employee for a situation before giving it much additional thought or attempting to understand their actions. That doesn’t mean the employee is always right, but you may be too far on the side of assuming the employee is always in the wrong. You may also want to look into why you sided so automatically with some employees (the pinchers) over your assistant, since so many outside observers immediately think the other employees are so obviously at fault rather than your assistant. Did you think she was being dramatic? Did you take the quitting personally? Is it possible you are inclined to brush off a woman’s concerns over men’s actions (if the other employees involved were men)? There may be other reasons, but please consider that you should find out why your first reaction to a fairly obvious victim vs. bullying situation was to blame the victim and in fact assume you should punish her somehow (you didn’t ask “should I give her a reference?” but “how do I decline to give her a reference?” as if that were the only reasonable course of action.)

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Indeed. I also find it quite comforting that the vast majority of commenters have either never heard of pinching or would never dream of doing it in the workplace. Every time there’s a letter like this, a part of my brain goes “oh no, do I have to worry about THIS now?” It sounds like the OP’s workplace is in no way the norm.

    2. Former Employee*

      Thank you for the juxtaposition of St. Patrick’s Day and mishigas. This may be a first – while there are Irish Jews, I doubt they speak Yiddish.

      1. fposte*

        Mayor of Dublin Robert Briscoe and his son Ben were both Jewish. I like to think they said “mishigas” a lot.

      2. Noobtastic*

        I’m not a Jew, but I still find myself saying, “Oy, vey,” and “mensch,” and other such Yiddish terms. Sometimes, one language just has better ways of expressing certain things. “He’s a mensch,” means more than “He’s a great guy.” Like German, with “schadenfreude,” Dutch with “gezellig,” or French with “savoir faire.” These words just capture so much more than any English translation can capture.

        I think “mishigas” is a really appropriate term for this, especially given Irish-American and Jewish-American histories.

        I’d like to think that Irish Jews speak Yiddish and Gaelic.

  141. Themiscyra*

    I don’t think the cultural appropriation angle matters so much here as the fact that it is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE TO PINCH A COWORKER, especially when they’ve already made it clear they don’t want to participate, and especially ‘near the butt’. OP, you and your company should apologize profusely to this woman. The ‘near the butt’ dude should be disciplined. And you should either give a good reference or refer any callers to HR for dates of employment, citing company policy (which may or may not exist), because frankly, anything less feels like retaliation to me.

    For the record: I’m from the Northeast, of principally Irish, Scottish, and Swedish descent (with some other stuff mixed in) and it was a family tradition to pinch one another for not wearing green on St. Patrick’s Day, but strictly a family matter. Oddly, it was introduced by my mother, who grew up in California and was on the Scottish side. I don’t celebrate St. Patrick’s Day as an adult because I don’t care to celebrate my heritage through drunken revelry, as it’s celebrated in America, and don’t have the most positive view of Christianity’s hold on Ireland. I don’t know if I’d use the phrase cultural appropriation, and I certainly wouldn’t get mad if my employer wanted to set up a buffet of traditional Irish foods (as happened at a previous job; the corned beef was particularly good), but there’s a point at which I would get genuinely upset, and it would probably start with the officewide e-mail asking people to wear green and symbols of the day, regardless of their views on it. Pinching is far over the line.

    OP, maybe your assistant reacted more strongly than I would have (I would have gone to HR before quitting outright, but might lose my head in the heat of the moment), but let’s be clear: when you heard what had happened, you should have reached out to your assistant and asked how you could make this right. You should, in fact, still do this. And in the future, you and your company should make it clear that employees are in their rights to decline to participate in these things, and are certainly not to be pinched. Your focus should not be on how to communicate her abrupt departure to others; your focus should be on the reasons for her departure, and a company culture that got badly out of hand in this case.

  142. Erin*

    It looks like the incidents happened one right after the other as she was going into/at this meeting and then she stormed out – I don’t think she even came to the OP and asked for her help, or gave the OP a chance to intervene. She walked out without communicating and OP had to hear what happened from other employees. So how can we blame the OP? Am I wrong in how I’m reading this?

    Please someone comment and let me know because I’m genuinely confused and curious. If the OP was never given a chance to correct the problem I don’t see how she can be blamed, or why it was okay for the woman to quit without notice.

    1. MuseumChick*

      There are two possibilities here that I see.

      1) This was a one-time event that the employee reacted very strongly to.

      2) This was the latest in a long line of inappropriate behavior the employee had been putting up with.

      Based on the tone of the letter, and the rarity of people rage quieting jobs like this, I would say #2 is the mist likely scenario. Thus, the OP needs to take a long hard look at the norms of the work place and really consider if there were other incidents that were brought to her attention that she did not deal with (“They were just joking” “It’s not that big of a deal” “Everyone does that here” “Lighten up!”)

    2. Alton*

      There are times when it’s understandable to quit without notice, and if the assistant really felt bullied and assaulted, I can’t blame her. It would have been best to talk to the OP, either before or after quitting, but I don’t blame for not wanting to stick around.

      I don’t think it’s likely that it’s the OP’s “fault,” and I don’t think a lot of people are directly blaming her. But as the manager, she has a responsibility to set expectations and address concerns like these, and the letter doesn’t give any indication that the OP has given much thought to this beyond blaming the assistant for everything. The OP may not have been able to prevent this from happening in the first place, but she does have the power to address what happened and keep it in mind going forward.

    3. seejay*

      Considering the OP’s response to the employee quitting is “how can I decline to give the admin a reference because she rage-quit” instead of actually, you know, acknowledging that the admin *had a valid complaint*, leads most of us to actually believe that the OP doesn’t even get the fact that there was something wildly inappropriate about what was going on in the first place, so we suspect that the admin had no faith that her manager would have handled the incident had she gone to the OP anyway.

      OP’s letter should have been along the lines of “how do I deal with the nogoodnicks in my office who can’t keep their hands to themselves”.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        This. If the letter had been about firmly lecturing the handsy and then trying to apologize to the rage-quitter who hung up, advice would have been very different.

        Though still probably hitting that “We have a fun office! You join in the fun, or else” is usually not a good workplace dynamic, even though it feels that way to the frequent instigators. It would be more like the letter about the prank war between LW’s underlings that landed in one in the ER after they were punctured by scissors. “It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye” and so on.

        1. seejay*

          We had a person in the office that was *hugely* toxic to multiple people and quite a few people had gone to our manager about it and he kept throwing his hands up in the air like a muppet and loudly proclaiming that he didn’t know what to do about it. There was this combined helplessness feeling that he felt their behaviour was “because of their upbringing”, this person got along fabulously with someone else, so what could be that terrible about them, we weren’t trying hard enough to be their friend, and their work was so valuable to what we did, he just didn’t want to rock the boat and upset this person. In the meantime, this person belittled and bullied and essentially shat on anyone they felt like with impunity, because they were untouchable.

          I never went to my manager about how this person treated me because why bother? He’d done enough muppet-flailing about how he couldn’t control their behaviour despite being the manager of them. I didn’t trust that he’d take my complaint seriously, so I dealt with it the best I could (essentially avoided working with said person as much as I could unless absolutely necessary, even to the point of not walking by this person’s desk). I didn’t trust my manager to actually deal with the problem and if the toxicity had risen to the point that I’d felt the need to walk out, I might’ve instead of approaching my manager since he’d been pretty clear he wasn’t able to handle it.

          I definitely feel for the admin in this case. No one was willing to stand up for her so she dealt with it the best she could.

      3. Someone*

        That was my understanding also.

        If pinching in general is regarded as completely OK because it is part of a holiday tradition (children’s edition), and pinching in an inappropriate place doesn’t warrant an apology because it was an “accident” (oh really?!) – then what other immature, offensive, sexist behaviors are tolerated there?
        Somehow, when I try to picture a good, supportive, professional workplace and then try to superimpose the work culture that LW described…. it just doesn’t fit.

        1. Gadfly*

          While I don’t like slippery slope arguments in general, there are potential slippery slopes, and there are slopes that we’ve gone down so many times we’ve polished a big enough rut that it could serve as a luge run.

          This is one of the latter circumstances.

    4. AW*

      If the assistant went to the OP directly about finding the planned celebration offensive, then from their POV they did already give the OP a chance to intervene. It’s unclear from the letter whether they went to HR, the OP, or were just talking to people in general when they made that complaint but it could be that the assistant felt that the company had already proved that they wouldn’t do anything about the pinching.

      1. Roscoe*

        Honestly, that seems like a leap. To say that you aren’t comfortable with a certain holiday, that as we can see in this thread is divisive to say the least, and thinking that unwanted touching wouldn’t be dealt with are pretty different.

        1. Sadsack*

          Look how OP is characterizing it after the fact. It’s the employee’s problem and he wants to not give her a reference because if it. I asked this farther up, but how do you think he would have handled it if she went to him right away? He wouldn’t have, from the looks of his letter here.

    5. Observer*

      Well, the person running the meeting had a chance to intervene and chose not to. In fact, that person apparently allowed the staff present to “explain” the “tradition” to her, instead. So, that’s a really good clue to the fact that management doesn’t see this as a big deal.

      The OP’s reaction reinforces that impression. Had she said something like “How do I make sure this doesn’t happen again? How do I respond to my Admin? I wish she would have come to me before quitting, as I would have made them stop.” That would have been one thing. But, all we get is a justification for the pinching. Also, the very strong impression that the OP didn’t call her Admin to find out how to deal with the pinching, but to find out why Admin was awol.

      Now, even in a workplace where the Admin would have had strong reason to come to the OP before quitting (ie the meeting coordinator shut it down and / or the OP called to apologize), the question I would have expected is “How do I make sure people come to me before rage quitting? What should I tell people if I get called for a reference.” Instead, we get “How do give her a bad reference?”

      1. RVA Cat*

        I really wonder about the gender politics in this office as a whole. Is this one of these places where all or most of the big shots are men and the women are mostly support staff? Was there a woman at the pincher’s level or above at the meeting? I just don’t see the OP’s attitude coming from an office with 2017 business norms and a functioning HR department.

    6. Aphrodite*

      It’s likely there was little time between the two assaults so she didn’t talk to her boss, HR or anyone else, just left. However, maybe she knew her boss and/or HR wouldn’t care to do anything. If she did know that based on previous problems (lack of solutions) then why bother? No one would help her anyway.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think the fact that no one would speak up along with her, tells a lot about the culture of the company and fully explains why she walked out. Why bother explaining something to people who already know they are right and she is wrong.

  143. AW*

    The fact that she quit implies that she didn’t trust anyone at the company to handle this properly. Maybe that was because her complaint about cultural appropriation was ignored but it could also be that there were other issues before this and this was just the last straw.

    In addition to what Alison said, your company really needs to address the unwanted touching with the rest of the employees. That it happened twice and no one else had this employee’s back when she got upset really is weird. I don’t know if this means re-training or simply re-iterating company policy about unwanted touching not being OK but something needs to be said if the prevailing attitude is that they didn’t do anything wrong.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Happening twice, close together, and no one had her back really stands out to me. That sounds a lot like sharks smelling blood in the water: “Woo hoo hoo we’ve got a screamer here, this is going to be fun.”

      With the second pinch, the employee had every reason to believe that saying ‘no,’ saying ‘no’ loudly and forcefully, screaming, trying to get away, etc were not going to cut it on this fun fun holiday. And management’s being appalled… at the pinchee, not the pinchers, gives even more evidence that she was correct to conclude that and walk out as the only way to get people’s hands off her.

      1. RVA Cat*

        Yes, and this group bullying/hazing behavior is unacceptable coming from grown adults in the workplace, especially when it’s flowing down the chain of command.

        I’m thinking this has to be a small business with no HR department for them to be this warped and clueless.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        The group has the mindset that NO means YES.

        OP, this is a really bad road to be on. REEALLY BAD. If this mindset is allowed to continue some day the company WILL be hit with a lawsuit and it will make headlines.
        It probably won’t be this time. But the time is coming.

        I can just see the coworkers sitting around the break room laughing about how they made this poor woman quit and “wait and see what we do to the next one.”
        It’s a bad road, OP.

        1. Gadfly*

          As I said elsewhere, a bad office culture is a gamble. How long can you trust people who are not respecting boundaries to remember not to go too far across them?

  144. Katy*

    I’m from the West of Scotland which shares a lot of the sectarianism with NI, but thankfully not to the same extent as pre-GF agreement, and have Irish heritage (in common with most people in Glasgow/Ayrshire area).

    First things first… it is a LOT better these days, but it’s still there, and people have been KILLED recently enough to make it a sore subject. Not to mention the mockery and appropriation… but people have dies over this shit in the not too distant past. Some of them died because of weapons bought by “charities” that did fundraising in the US.

    I’m horrified reading about all this. First, the Orangemen (orange order) would object very strongly to being asked to identify with Irish nationalists. They have their own marches …. which are often designed to be threatening, and caused the Catholic church in more than a few places to stop posting funeral notices in the paper or the mourners would come out of the service to the sound of an Orange band.

    And when it wasnt that long ago a wee boy was beaten to death for wearing a celtic top….

    Yeah, I can understand being upset by people brushing off her concerns.

    1. AW*

      I’m very sorry to hear that protesting funerals isn’t just something that one family does here in America.

      Thank you for the additional context.

    2. LCL*

      When I was in 5th grade (11 years old) a fellow student spent some time explaining to me why in her view orange was the correct color to wear for St Patrick’s day. I couldn’t follow her argument then, I didn’t get her perspective until years later. The irony is she considered her identity, when she talked about it as White Americans sometimes do, as Swedish.

    3. AFRC*

      Thank you for pointing this out! People think it’s just a fun day, but it’s very serious for a lot of people for many different reasons.

  145. Losos*

    Regardless of her wearing green or not there is no reason for unnecessary contact, it is inappropriate for the work place.

  146. Mochafrap512*

    Pinching on St. Patrick’s day should be reserved for close friends or family. Maybe a super close co-worker that you’re really good friends with- again that’s pushing it. Her getting pinched near the bottom was borderline, accidental sexual harassment. It makes it look worse (even though it shouldn’t matter) that it was opposite genders. I realize the co-worker didn’t mean anything by it though. Is there the possibility that these were just the two pinches op knows about? Don’t know. Regardless, I think in this case, op should give her the reference she deserves, just like Alison said.

  147. No day but today*

    Totally off topic…but I love how the links at the bottom of a current letter can bring you to an old crazy favorite. Two clicks and I was on the duck club letter update. Made my afternoon a bit more entertaining. It’s been AGES since I read that.

  148. Tyrion*

    Did the letter writer ever respond? I did a cursory search of the thousand posts and couldn’t find anything.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      No. It’s very uncommon for letter writers to respond in the comments with this kind of tidal wave against them, which is understandable.

      1. Observer*

        Although, I DO recall two posters who wrote back with updates that indicated that they had read all of the negative feedback and had taken it to heart. I was actually rather impressed.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Unfortunately I think that was a different time. Commenters for the last several months have gotten more dog-piley.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            You know, I don’t think individual comments have, for the most part. I think it’s that there’s more comments, so that cumulative effect is a bit more off-putting for letter-writers who are being criticized.

            1. Katie the Fed*

              hmm maybe. I’ll trust your take on it, but I have to say that as a regular commenter it feels a lot more unwieldy over the last few months.

    2. Thumper*

      Typically when the answer/comments aren’t supportive of the LW I never see them show up in the comments, except once, and the woman got ridiculously defensive (I think the letter was about her husband writing her resignation letter or something).

      1. Katie the Fed*

        I remember one OP that Alison had to put on moderation because he was SO combative with commenters. But usually it’s the other way around.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I remember that, too. I concluded that he did not want any help. He kept saying the same things over and over.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        We do have some OPs that interact even if everyone is ready to pounce. I think the OPs who interact make out better most of the time. (Not all the time, though.)

        With so many people commenting here an OP can quickly feel outnumbered and surrounded. Add to that the deluge of advice and thoughts, yeah, I get it.

        I still think that OPs who talk in the comment section have advantages over those who don’t.

  149. Former Employee*

    Even before this poor woman was physically assaulted, she was being harassed by everyone in the office who were collectively denigrating her culture, a group activity encouraged by management. Then she was physically assaulted, not once but twice!

    I am not an attorney, but I wonder if the company is at risk for having to pay damages if the former employee files suit for encouraging such behavior. If I were a senior person at this company and were made aware of it, I think I would offer the former employee some amount of money in return for a written guarantee not to sue.

    I think the OP should imagine that she is interviewing people to fill the position of assistant. Someone comes in for an interview and the OP notices that the interviewee is unemployed. OP asks what happened. Interviewee tells OP that she felt she had to quit her previous job before she had a new job because she was being assaulted by co-workers and management would do nothing about it.

    My suggestion is that the OP give this former assistant the best reference possible.

  150. Evie J.*

    As someone who doesn’t like to be touched, I’m one of those people who feared getting pinched, but I’ve yet to meet anyone who ever acted on it. Like other commenters, I’m also thinking maybe she was having a bad day or had other problems at the office and the pinches particularly the near butt pinch (!!!) and the prospect of getting pinched all day brought her over the edge thus the rage quit. I think the LW should reach out to her (after she’s had plenty of time to cool down) and, if she’s willing to share, listen to her complaints and try to see if there is something bigger going on within the office culture that needs to be addressed. I also agree with giving her the reference that represents her work as opposed to just this incident. Also, maybe ban the pinching next year…

    As for the cultural appropriation aspect of this, I’ve seen both sides from Americans of Irish descent (probably third or fourth generation.) I’ve seen some who have voiced that they thought the holiday was cultural appropriation, an excuse to drink, etc. and others who embraced that version of celebrating the holiday. I guess it depends person to person, but I think it’s best to respect that person’s opinion, be respectful in general, and not pressure them into participation.

    Also, it’s very interesting reading about wearing orange. I’ve never heard of that before but I think it’s because I came from a very Catholic region of the US…

  151. Rachael*

    I’ve looked into St. Patrick’s traditions and everything I’ve read has explained why America celebrates it differently. We have been celebrating St. Patrick’s day since the late 1700s. The pinching and celebrating with a drink is rooted in our own history. Recently, mainstream America has embraced the holiday as part of it’s culture.

    The reason why other countries are confused is that they, themselves, only recently began celebrating it as a festive holiday while Irish American’s fought for centuries to bring recognition to their heritage.

    Are the traditions perfect? No. But, it looks like people are looking at this backwards. It is not America that is celebrating it differently….Irish Americans are the ones who started the St. Patrick’s day celebrations that we know.

    1. Observer*

      None of that is really relevant, though. It shouldn’t need explaining why the pinching is a problem regardless of whether the current celebrations are valid, etc.

      But, even in terms of what is or is not appropriation vs appropriate celebration, etc. the whole situation in this office is a mess. The bottom line is that she was told by her boss that she should celebrate *her* tradition in the way her SELF DECLARED non-compatriots told her, rather than in the way that felt authentic to her. Then, when she declined to join the festivities she was told that she doesn’t “understand” her own traditions. The fact that this supposed lack of understanding of her own tradition was used as an excuse for ignoring her boundaries and physically hassling her just makes it worse.

      1. Rachael*

        It is relevant. I was writing why it is not culture appropriation. It is an American holiday rooted in tradition of Irish Americans who started the traditions…pinching, wearing green, parades, drinking. I understand that the Irish or even some of today’s Irish Americans don’t get all of the customs and find them weird. However, I do not agree that because one person finds it offensive it means that the tradition must be banned. Green themed treats are not offensive. I mentioned in previous comments that pinching is never okay at work and the assistant is owed an apology and the company needs to be reminded about harassing people. However, I disagree with the commentators that the party should have been canceled because she did not agree with it.

        1. Observer*

          That’s not what anyone is saying. What we ARE saying is that it is extremely disrespectful to tell someone how to celebrate THEIR tradition. You want to celebrate an American-Irish tradition? Go ahead. But don’t tell someone else that SHE has to celebrate that tradition because the American Irish tradition is actually the CORRECT *IRISH* (not American Irish) tradition.

  152. justcourt*

    I was sure LW’s question was going to be about how to apologize and get his/her assistant back. Instead it’s about how to derail his/her assistant’s future job prosepects. Geez.

  153. File herder*

    I Am Not A Llama, but I do have a certain amount of practical experience re UK employment law. I would note that while the actions of the pinchers and the OP may not be actionable under US civil law, it would be a very bad idea for anyone in a UK workplace to emulate them. We have here
    1) multiple physical assaults
    2) one of which was of a sexual nature (yes, I too am calling BS on the “only pinched near her butt because she sat down as I assaulted her”)
    3) which were claimed by the perpetrators to be justified on ethnic grounds, and possibly on religious grounds
    4) the manager states that there was was nothing wrong with the perpetrators behaving this way, and is now proposing to victimise the victim post-termination by giving her a bad reference because she objected to this behaviour.

    A competent union offical, never mind a competent employment lawyer, could put together a decent claim for constructive dismissal, sexual discrimination, racial and possibly religious discrimination, and post-dismissal victimisation. Discrimination claims can be made against the individuals responsible for the behaviour as well as the company, and that includes managers who condone the discrimination and actively retaliate against the victim for objecting to the behaviour.

    What with not being a llama, I’m not going to speculate on what Vento band this little lot falls into, but I would note that compensation for claims involving racially motivated and sexualised physical assault with post-dismissal victimisation can run into tens of thousands of pounds. No, it probably wouldn’t be prosecuted as a criminal offence in the UK either, but that doesn’t mean the victim has no recourse in the civil court system if they walk out after a colleague gropes them and their manager’s reaction is to punish them by trying to destroy their chances of getting another job.

    1. Buu*

      Oops submitted before I was ready. But yeah what a weird thing to do someone. I agree with most people here the most concerning thing was the employee who left was made to feel like she wasn’t safe. Both times she was touched it sounds like there were witnesses around, and no one stepped it and helped her out? I can see why she walked out.
      OP at minimum you owe her an honest reference and and I’d also go onto suggest if any potential new employer phones up for a verbal and grills you on why she left, you take responsibility.

  155. Czhorat*

    I agree with those who said there might be more to the story; in all my years in the workforce I have never seen anyone either ragequit or be summarily fired (and I have seen people leave badly).

    This reminds me a little bit of the “prank” discussion we have here at times, with the LW seeing it as harmless fun while the assistant clearly saw it differently. It’s why​ we should be mindful of how we act in the office, and remember that not everyone funds the same things funny.

  156. Laura*

    File Herder is absolutely right re UK law. This would unquestionably be a compensation claim here, and rightly so.

    And this is not the first time Alison has minimised people putting their hands on other people in the office. I remember her advice to the employee whose boss put their hands in the employee’s hair to shake their head violently. I wouldn’t go near her for advice on this kind of thing – sadly, because she’s very sound in so many other areas. It’s at least reassuring to see many commenters, if not her, outraged by the excuse of the ‘accidental’ pinch to the bottom.

    1. Gadfly*

      I think some it it is US law generally tends not to be very good at respecting that unless there’s a verifiable injury.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yes, US laws are way behind other nations in many areas. Laws that you would expect to be here are non-existent.

        I think Alison’s advice is reasonable given the givens here. A long court battle (years) is not going to help OPs move on with their lives. If you read through checking for this you will see that Alison’s advice is consistently to keep the person employed first and foremost.

        If the employee sued in this instance I would not be surprised for it to take 4 to 8 years to reach a settlement. Next hurdle is that courts do not give large settlements in most cases. Next hurdle part of the settlement could be that OP does not talk about what happened to anyone. Ever. Next hurdle in some cases settlements can be taxable. This means on a $20k settlement, 30-40% would go to the attorney and easily 33% to the US government for taxes. This leaves the employee with 27% to 37% of the settlement amount. Its. just. not. worth. it. In this case, the employee could conceivably make that same amount of money in raises at a better employer.

        I am not a llama, either but I do watch this stuff that is going on. Hopefully a lawyer will jump in and correct me where I am wrong.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

          I could pick some nits, but I’m sleepy and kind of discouraged by all this llama-ing (not you). You’ve basically got the gist of it. US tort law kind of blows sometimes. I appreciate that Allison doesn’t run around shouting “lawsuit!” willy-nilly. Even when you’ve got a great claim (which this simply is not) civil litigation is not an easy fix.

  157. Just_Dixie*

    The larger issue here for me isn’t even the following of a ridiculous “tradition” in the workplace that also happened to be offensive to a person. That’s one thing, but the real issue is that someone was subjected to unsolicited touching of any kind against her will and without permission, and that the entire episode was met with a shrug of the shoulders by people in authority. The employer should never have tolerated such a thing, regardless of whether it was meant as a joke or a “playful” act, which it WASN’T to the recipient! I’m astounded that it wasn’t immediately and appropriately handled by Manager(s) rebuking both offending parties for touching a coworker in any fashion against her will and then to make matters worse, the only concern the employer has is whether or not they now have to give a reference to the assistant? Like the assistant, I don’t “understand the pinching” either!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      An employer does not have the right to tell others that it is okay to touch me when they feel like it.
      And this is what this employer has done.

      Agree with you 200%. The holiday is irrelevant, there are no exceptions to the no pinching rule. None.

    2. Observer*

      Yes. I agree.

      I think that the whole discussion of the validity or otherwise of the way the day is celebrated is really besides the point. It’s been educational for me, but that’s a different issue :)

  158. AtomicCowgirl*

    Cultural insensitivity aside, the act of pinching falls within the strict definition of battery (offensive or harmful contact) and is therefore criminally actionable. The woman in question could well be considering consulting with an attorney. If this were me I’d probably be advising my director and VP and having a little consult with the corporate legal department to proactively address and issue an apology.

    1. fposte*

      If it’s criminally actionable, though, you go to the police, not to a lawyer; you want a lawyer for civil action.

  159. cat thatcher*

    Most every adult in the US, regardless of workplace, ethnicity, or day of the year knows that pinching people is inappropriate, full stop. In order for OP’s coworkers to come to the conclusion that it was in any way okay, I can’t but suspect that there is lots of other serious dysfunction going on behind the scenes. My mind boggles what kind of workplace culture would condone it. OP needs to have a nice long ponder on that, instead of flattering themself that their former assistant even wants them as a reference. It’s not impossible she’d ask for one, but in her place I’d go out of my way to avoid it.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Good point. She may have a plan to deal with references and OP may not have to worry about being a reference.

  160. Don't Pinch Me!*

    I’m still traumatized over being pinched in elementary school. I wear green every St. Patrick’s day just to avoid being pinched, otherwise, I hate the holiday. Constructive advice for the original letter writer: Think about the work environment . It sounds there were likely other issues that were bothering her and this was the last straw.

  161. Narise*

    If she hadn’t quit but had brought her concerns to you on Monday what would you have done? Imagine her sitting in your office saying the following “I explained in advance I did not want to participate in celebrating St. Patriots day in part because I believe its culturally insensitive. The celebration went ahead and on Friday two men pinched me one pinching my backend with the explanation he was trying to pinch me somewhere else. I find this experience embarrassing and feel I was harassed after stating clearly I did not want to participate. I want to know how you plan to address this with the coworkers who harassed me and with the company as a whole.”

  162. LadyPhoenix*

    OP, it is clear that this company has the mentality of frat boys.

    All out decorating for the “biggest drinking holiday”, belittling women, hassling and harassing female employees, gaslighting those victimized employees? I doubt the employee left JUST because she got pinched (although the butt pinch would definitely set any woman off), but rather this was the last straw to a long chain of toxicity from YOUR company.

    You need to sincerely apologize to your ex-assistant (“I apologize for the actions commited against you by employees of this company. Their actions are unasceptable.”), you need to punish the pinchers, you need to enfore a better work culture, AND you need to cancel St. Patty’s day in ofice (or severely limit it). If your company cannot celebrate a holiday responsibly, then it should not celebrate at all.

    It is your responsibility to give this employee the most honest review should she recieve a new job, as YOU failed her as the boss.

  163. Spacecadet51*

    Although her reaction was a bit extreme, I don’t blame her for being irritated. I probably would have left for the day and had conversations the next day when I cooled off. I don’t like when people pinch me and I’d be ready to pop someone. It’s about respecting personal boundaries……period. When she stated that she wasn’t interested in participating, that was a clear message.

  164. Been There, Done That*

    I wonder how the situation (from reaction to the pinching to the walkout) would have been perceived if the person had been a man, or someone farther up the food chain than assistant?

    1. Gadfly*

      I would have a hard time believing that a man would be pinched. It is generally assumed women will take it and men will punch you.

      And if it were someone up the food chain but still a woman? That sort of thing happens a lot when people think they can get away with it. As they clearly had reason to believe was the case here. Again, not so much with men who tend to be seen as more legitimately in power. But as a way to put a woman back in her place in a frat boy environment? Definitely pinch.

    2. MashaKasha*

      I’d be interested to know if the people who thought it was okay to repeatedly pinch an assistant against her wishes, would pinch a CEO. Somehow I’m guessing the answer is no.

  165. Noobtastic*

    My first thought was “She’s probably protestant,” and for an Irish protestant, all the green would be a painful reminder of the war that has been going on in Ireland between the Catholics and Protestants for a very, very long time.

    And there have been a whole lot of deaths over it.

    Orangemen take it all very seriously, but most Americans simply do not get it. They say, “Everyone is Irish on St. Patrick’s Day,” but they’re completely erasing half of the country when they do that. I mean, sure, on the surface, it seems positive, but if you’re not Catholic, it’s a painful reminder of death and pain and tragedy.

    Add physical assault to that, plus all the people poo-pooing her, rather than listening to any explanation of why she doesn’t want to participate, or why she finds it distasteful and even painful to see others participating, when they have no history to celebrate, and yes, I can totally see why she left as she did.

    LW, your entire office owes her an apology, and the two who pinched her (again – PHYSICAL ASSAULT, that has no business being in a workplace, especially not an office), owe her some sort of restitution. I’m not sure what restitution, but they do need to make it plain that they know they were wrong, and that they are sorry they hurt her, and regret their actions, not just the consequences of those actions.

    At any rate, give her as good a reference as she deserves, regardless of how she left.

  166. Noobtastic*

    Also, I just think it’s good form to make any office-wide celebration of any event or holiday an “opt-in” arrangement, rather than an “opt-out” arrangement.

    That is to say, if people want to wear green and have fun on St. Patrick’s Day, it can certainly be good for morale. However, it should not come down from on high that people are instructed to wear green. They should quietly get the word out, through the grapevine, that if someone wants to wear something festive, like a green top-hat, or a “Kiss Me, I’m Irish” pin, or something that would not normally be part of the office environment that their managers should look the other way on that day.

    However, in this case, it seems that everyone was told to participate, and she was not even allowed to opt-out.

    Another way to engage the entire office in some morale-boosting fun might have been to institute a “Silly Hat Day,” or some such, on the day, knowing that a lot of those silly hats would be green, but not actually mention St. Patrick, at all.

    I do, in general, approve of providing free food for employees. It’s almost always a morale-booster. But even then, it needs to be opt-in, not opt-out. An awful lot of people have food restrictions, or various other food issues, and communal dining can be a minefield, if not handled carefully.

    1. Gadfly*

      My husband’s work means well, but he’s vegetarian and they seldom have much of anything he can eat, or go places with anything. And this is in the Bay Area (there have got to be others at his work… and plenty of options available) It really does make him worry he is missing out on things but he really doesn’t want to go and drink unsweetened tea or something (he’s also diabetic, so desserts/sodas/eat just bread is problematic too)

      1. Noobtastic*

        Back when I was in charge of ordering pizzas for the group, I always made sure to get a vegetarian option.

        After a couple of times with the veggie pizza being absolutely obliterated within the first six people, even though they also got slices of meat pizza, as well, I made sure that fully half of the pizzas were vegetarian.

        Vegans have an even harder time of it.

        The thing is, anyone can eat vegetarian or vegan (unless they have other issues, such as gluten intolerance), including those who love meat. It’s the “lowest common denominator” thing at work. People in charge of ordering food for a group, or deciding on a restaurant are responsible for providing for that “lowest common denominator.”

        Pot-lucks are generally good, because the people with special needs will bring something they can eat, themselves. Unless they don’t have the skill/time/money to cook something.

  167. AlwhoisthatAl*

    Slightly off-topic but being from the UK, I find this concept of being thought of as “Irish”, “Swedish”, “Martian” etc when you are not from there quite frankly baffling.
    I was born in England – I am English. My mother is Scottish as are all her ancestors, My father is English, his mother was Irish. His ancestors were originally from the Teutonic Saxons, Angles etc as my surname is an Anglicised version of the Anglo Saxon word for a “Master of Horses”. I am still English – not Scottish, Irish or German.

    1. fposte*

      But the English have had their own variation of this in the colonies, where people born and raised in India are English and not Indian.

      1. AlwhoisthatAl*

        I don’t follow, if you are born and raised in India, you are Indian. Not English. There is a little Technicality where if you are born on an Military base or in an Embassy you are that nationality because that is counted as being in that other country. My Father-in-Law was born on a RAF base in India and therefore he is British with a British passport because it states specifically on his birth cerificate.

        But saying you are Irish becuase your Grandmother came from Ireland, I don’t get.

        1. Observer*

          That’s actually not necessarily true. It CERTAINLY was not the case during the days of “the sun never sets on the British Empire”.

          People’s identity is not just about where they were born and raised. I’m not going to claim that I know how this is seen broadly in the UK, but I do know that the people I know from the UK don’t seem to share this view.

    2. MashaKasha*

      Isn’t this referring to a person’s ethnicity/heritage? I was born and raised in Russia. I’m not Russian. Most ethnic Russians in Russia would be appalled if I claimed to be one of them. OTOH I’m part Polish, and have never been to Poland. I thought this was how it worked?

      1. AlwhoisthatAl*

        Again I’m baffled, so you were born in Russia, raised in Russia but you are not Russian. So it makes no difference where you are born or raised as to what you are ?

        1. saffytaffy*

          I can easily see this. My Dutch friends raised their three sons in Shanghai, but their boys aren’t Chinese. They’re Dutch.

        2. MashaKasha*

          It makes a lot of difference, but it cannot physically alter my ethnicity. Kind of like in the example below.

    3. Themiscyra*

      There are two sides to this. I’m not going to comment much on the native Irish perspective except to say that my understanding (which I believe has been raised by commentators above) is that Irish people from Ireland take a dim view of Americans of Irish descent identifying as ‘Irish,’ for a multitude of reasons.

      From the Irish-American perspective, however: a lot of our ancestors came over under unpleasant circumstances, fleeing the Famine or other disasters. There was a time in history when our ancestors couldn’t hope for a better life in Ireland, crushed as it was under England’s thumb, and so they fled to the United States, to Canada, to other friendlier harbors. And once here, our ancestors were often faced with discrimination; we weren’t even considered white. That has changed, Irish-Americans are now part of white American culture, and white Irish-Americans have done more than a few things I’m not proud of, but the scars still run deep, and the communities founded in the days when our ancestors HAD to stick together are still important.

      We’re children and grandchildren of the Irish diaspora, and our heritage is still important to us. I personally try to stay out of discussions of Irish politics, and keep to identifying as Irish-American or of Irish descent rather than Irish, because I do recognize that there’s an important distinction and the affairs of Ireland proper are none of my business. I also think St. Patrick’s Day is a pretty shitty way of celebrating Irish heritage. But that heritage is still important to me, for all that the man it came through was an utter asshole, from all I’ve heard. It is, at the very least, as important as the Swedish heritage that came down to me through my paternal grandmother (who is actually an immigrant) and the Scots heritage that came down to me through my maternal great-grandmother. My roots are tangled and confusing, but these are the three strongest ones, and they’ve all informed who I am.

    4. Mallomary*

      I understand why, in day-to-day conversation, it’s confusing to have Americans refer to themselves as Irish if they are of Irish descent, or German if they are of German descent. For Americans, the “-American” is implied. They are referring to their biological ancestry or ethnic heritage, not their nationality. However, I don’t understand why it’s baffling. I’m the Chicago-raised daughter of two first-generation Irish-Americans born and raised in New York City, and I’ve witnessed this supposed bafflement among Irish family members and acquaintances. However, the same friends and acquaintances have no problem claiming famous and accomplished people as Irish, even when those people’s association with Ireland is quite tenuous (see the “ancestral home” of the O’Bamas.”) My point being, I find this bafflement among the Irish in particular rather ingenuous.

    5. Manager in CA*

      It’s like this. A husband and wife move from Ghana in 1910 to settle permanently in London. The husband and wife are clearly Ghanaian. But they become UK citizens and when their children are born in London, their children will be English because the children were born in England and they will be raised in England. But for a lot of families, the Ghanaian roots of the family will be important and the traditions and familial practices from Ghana will be passed on from generation to generation. While the children will be English, then will also consider themselves Ghanaian. This is the American experience.

      My great grandmother O’Connor moved from Ireland to America when she was three. Until she passed away, my dad says she always considered herself Irish because she was born there and her parents were from Ireland going back generations. But she was raised in America. My mother-in-law, in turn, was born in England and moved to Ireland when she was five, later married an Irishman, and had 10 kids in Ireland. My mother-in-law is proudly Irish, even though she wasn’t born there, because it’s really the only country she’s ever known.

      My wife being born and raised in Ireland will always consider herself Irish, even though she became an American citizen last year. Now my son is an American by birth, but his Irish heritage is important to us.

    6. brighidg*

      The US was (and still is) very segregated. To the point where most neighborhoods and villages were divided by certain nationalities and ethnicities. You still see this today in names (both official and not) like Chinatown, Little Italy, and Bronzeville. I grew up in Chicago in what was known as an Irish neighborhood then and was next to an Italian neighborhood and Polish neighborhood and so on.

      And while in Chicago this could vary from neighborhood to neighborhood it was played out across the US where entire cities or even states are associated with one nationality – see Boston and the Irish or Minnesota and Scandinavians.

      As such, monikers like “Irish-American” refer less to actually being Irish as it does to identifying with the Irish-American experience unique to people from that group or location. It’s the immigrant aspect that’s more important and especially about the immigrant experience before these various European groups assimilated into what is now seen as white.

  168. nonegiven*

    It’s not first grade, you do not pinch people. Even in first grade you don’t pinch people like you might have in the 60s

  169. SS*

    We recently had a letter about a person who was punched/kicked at work and most everyone agreed that being assaulted at work is absolutely out of line and pinching was included in the concept of assault and that the behavior should not be gaslighted as “playful”. Now we have a letter where a person was repeatedly pinched at work and commenters are saying that she was supposed to take it as “playful”??

    The holiday has no bearing on this situation. You do not inflict physical pain on coworkers. Period.

    Look at it from her viewpoint. She was assaulted multiple times at her place of employment and it occurred from multiple co-workers and in front of witnesses. The rest of the people in the meeting were telling her that the assault was acceptable. I wouldn’t remain at the office either.

  170. KM*

    Well all agree it’s not okay to pinch people. What I want to know is, why is this office so bananas about celebrating something that’s barely even a holiday? Did they do a staff retreat one time and decide that this was now their thing? “We’re gonna have great customer service, and bring down costs and also GO INSANE ABOUT ST. PATRICK’S DAY.” What happened?

  171. Admin Amber*

    Really childish behavior that management should have put a stop to immediately. Also, St. Patrick’s day continues to perpetuate a negative stereotype of the Irish culture.

  172. LadyCop*

    Just popping in to say…as I am neither Irish nor Catholic…getting constantly ragged on for not wearing green or “celebrating” a relatively benign “holiday” is -annoying- to put it mildly. I don’t know what the appeal is of drinking beer when you can do it the other 364 days a year…and while I am aware of this pinching nonsense…there is no circumstance where I wouldn’t consider it different than otherwise being assaulted at work.

    Yeah her reaction was maybe over the top…but I’ve also had days like that…and jobs bad enough where I’d feel darn good throwing down my badge, shouting a good f- u, and all but literally waltzing out the door…

    Okay maybe literally waltzing…

Comments are closed.