open thread – March 17-18, 2017

by Alison Green on March 17, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I’m putting this up here in the hope a lot of people will see it.

    I’ve been removing a greater number of off-topic posts lately (from regular posts, not the open thread). For example, this morning’s thread about Cards Against Humanity in a post that had nothing to do with that.

    The site rule against off-topic posts exists because most threads grow long and unwieldy as it is. Some people don’t bother to read comments when they see a high number of comments already there, and having 50 comments about something unrelated to the post doesn’t help that.

    I want to ask everyone to review the (recently updated!) site rules and to be more vigilant about following them. If you see an off-topic post, please don’t add to it — that makes more work for me when I need to go in and individually delete dozens of responses, and it reinforces something I’m trying to cut down on.

    I may make this its own post at some point, but figured I’d start with it here.

    2. Morning Glory*

      I’m not sure if the html part of the guidelines is new or if I’m just unobservant, but thank you for including those instructions!

    3. fposte*

      I vote for its own post as well, and perhaps a little more emphasis on one point.

      We’ve been kind of a tangent-rich commentariat for a while (I’m definitely foremost among that brigade) and I think “off-topic” to me doesn’t immediately signal the kind of change I think you’re going for. Saying “The Day of the Digression Is Dead!” is probably too extreme, but something to indicate that even subthreads are expected to be responding to the OP’s initial question might be helpful to structure what “on topic” really means for those of us who have to break a rambling habit.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Ah, that’s a very good point. “Off-topic” may sound like “don’t post your own work question on a thread about a different topic,” whereas what I’m trying to stamp out are lengthy threads about things that aren’t related to the original post but which may have come up organically in the discussion. (And complicating things, I think it’s fine to have a couple of comments that do that; it’s when it becomes a lengthy thread itself that I get concerned.)

        I’d be interested in feedback about that. If it’s something that a lot of people value about the site, I don’t want to be heavy-handed about it.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, that’s how I’ve interpreted “off-topic” here, so it took me a minute to realize you meant it more literally.

          And I’m torn, because I value that hugely; I think that’s where the community sense comes from. But it’s also where some of the really counterproductive rabbit holes come from. So I’d be interested if people have an idea about how to balance things more effectively.

          1. Clever Name*

            I think related tangents are fine, like “this reminds me of a similar work situation I was in, and here is how I handled it”. Those are often helpful. But the CAH subthread was just way beyond a tangent.

            1. MegaMoose, Esq*

              Similarly, I recall one I was involved in recently where someone responded to a post with a comment that mentioned a scene in The Expanse one of the questions brought to mind, and was followed by a handful of comments along the lines of “I love The Expanse!” or “No book spoilers!” (mine). I think that there was nothing wrong with the first comment because it was a tangent related to the POST, but the responses only related to the TANGENT, and it seems like that’s where the problem lies.

          2. Natalie*

            My gut feeling is that this area is always going to require an active moderation hand – the boundaries aren’t easily defined, it’s in the eye of the beholder to some extent, and when they cause those rabbit holes that you pointed out, people are just sucked in to the arguing/discussing. But, I do think regulars will pick up on the approximate boundaries by example as they observe them enforced.

            A few years ago when “First!” was a weird trend, somewhere I visited used to delete them with extreme prejudice. I think they must have had someone monitoring posts when they first went up, because they were super fast. After a month or two people just stopped, since they weren’t getting anything out of it.

            On a technical level, I would consider adding upvotes assuming the site builder can do that. I know not everyone loves them, but I would love a way to cut off the endless +1s and lols. You can do upvotes without downvotes if desired – disqus doesn’t make downvotes visible at all. (I’m not sure how you would prevent brigading since we don’t have log-ins, but I’m not a coder.)

            1. Antilles*

              On a technical level, I would consider adding upvotes assuming the site builder can do that. I know not everyone loves them, but I would love a way to cut off the endless +1s and lols.
              If the concern is “intimidatingly large total number of posts”, this is probably almost as big of an issue as thread derails. Unless the thread totally blew up after I posted mid-morning, I saw like 5 posts discussing the throwaway comment about CaH…but in comparison, scroll through a typical day’s thread and you’ll see like 20 different comments which are basically just people agreeing with a particularly good point but not really adding much (either via “+1”, “lol”, or something like “yeah, that”).
              It’s probably good to reinforce the topicality to avoid derails, but it’s also probably good to cut down on these sorts of low-content posts too.

                1. Natalie*

                  It is a good point. You could try auto-modding things like +1, etc, but that presumably means more random questions about why someone’s comment was deleted, etc.

                  It strikes me that anything you chose is going to either be time consuming (cautioning posters, manually deleting things, etc) or not terribly refined (auto-modding, upvotes, etc). Frustratingly, that might just be the way of things, and you have to pick. :/

                2. fposte*

                  I downvote upvotes. Sure, sometimes they work to give visibility to something that might otherwise get buried, but otherwise they’re a quixotic amplifier, and they self-perpetuate like a virus once they get going since quick readers just read the upvoted stuff. The way they shape responses on Reddit is too often bizarre.

                3. animaniactoo*

                  I’m posting this to see if a) my brand new gravatar is showing up since I found how to do it by reviewing the rules!

                  And to say that in general, I think it would be more useful to only be able to downvote.

                  My experience with upvoting is that people who are popular tend to get a lot of votes even when they’re posting inanity and newer posters, or posters who walk the ledge more but still have valuable things to say tend to not get as many upvotes and then are discouraged by it.

                  However, the downvoting would help in terms of “okay, this is the bridge too far” kind of comment, particularly if you could see them right away for moderation purposes and be able to check them out more quickly.

                4. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  @fposte, would you still feel that way if upvotes didn’t impact where a comment appeared (like if it didn’t make a comment appear higher or lower on the page)?

                5. Tomato Frog*

                  I’m anti-upvote. There’s a saying on Reddit that you think Redditors know what they’re talking about until you read the top-voted comments on something that’s in your area of expertise. I had that experience myself — seeing the top comment, with 100+ up-votes, calling the OP a liar based on an assumption I knew to be factually untrue. There’s definitely a positive feedback loop that happens where upvotes lend a comment credibility and visibility and therefore it gets more upvotes.

                6. Observer*

                  I think that that’s not too likely, though. How hard would it be to shut that down if it does happen? Obviously, if it happened with any sort of frequency, the feature would have to go, but if you could stop it easily, and it only happened a couple of times a year, would that be too burdensome? That’s not a snarky question – I have no real sense of how much of an issue even seemingly trivial things are.

                7. fposte*

                  @AAM–I think that would help to some extent. I’m not sure if that completely solves it or not–it still feels like being graded on a conversation in a way that I dislike, and it’s hard to avoid checking scores.

                  My other question would be how big a problem it’s solving. This could be because I tend to read early in a post’s lifespan, but I don’t see a lot of “+1” or “Me too” stuff on its own–it’s usually just a lead-in to a comment. Are there a lot of repetitive posts that will be usefully redirected this way, or will it just provide another layer over the existing comment stream?

                8. Natalie*

                  @ Tomato Frog, is that really different than what happens now, though – dozens of comments suggesting (for example) that someone is going to get sued, and one lawyer pointing out it’s unlikely getting lost in the sea?

                9. MegaMoose, Esq*

                  I am generally neutral on the upvote suggestion so long as it’s doesn’t effect post order, but I agree with @fpost that I’ve never really seen a lot of completely comment-free +1 or yes! posts. Certainly they happen, but I can’t recall seeing strings of them as often or extensive as the exploding rabbit-holes.

                10. Jaguar*

                  This isn’t evidence or scientifically based, just my own observations using comments / forum systems in communities that have regular contributors:

                  Upvotes (and especially upvote / downvote) tends to homogenize a community and people start tailoring how they say things and what they say to avoid downvotes or to “like hunt.” So, the obvious benefit, which I think you’re looking for here, is that the community will have a new tool to start self-policing. But the downside is that whatever the popular ideas of a site are, dissenting ideas tend to get pushed out. To choose an emotionally-neutral example, one that gets brought up here a lot, for instance, is that people should stay in a job for a couple years to avoid “job hopping,” so comments that support that assumption will tend to get extra weight with a bunch of upvotes and someone who might want to disagree with that idea now have a stronger incentive not to.

                  Another thing that tends to happen with communities of regular contributors is competing for likes/upvotes, which (I think) has a pretty profound influence on what people choose to post. So, before you began discouraging it, if a bizarre letter was answered, the first person to post “Is it WTF Wednesday again?” would likely get a bunch of upvotes, which is a strong encouragement for it to keep happening. People figure out what gets the most community approval and post that instead of what they might otherwise be inclined to post.

                  But, troll posts, unkind posts, or posts that violate the rules, I think, would very effectively get policed by the community here.

                11. Tomato Frog*

                  @Natalie, possibly? I wrote the comment before I saw Alison’s suggestion that comments wouldn’t be ordered by upvote, so I was picturing the Reddit system implemented here. However, even without putting the most upvoted at the top, I’m not sure if introducing upvotes would actually replace the pile-on, or just add one more element to the pile-on. Any internet sociologists/commenting behavior specialists around?

                  But even without ordering comments by upvote, I have been known to skim and only actually read the most-upvoted/liked comments. I’m sure I’m not the only one.

                12. Natalie*

                  @ Tomato Frog, interesting – I’ve never paid much attention to upvotes accept as a quick way to contribute “yes, agreed!” so I wouldn’t personally skim looking for them.

                  One way or another, I agree that having it order by anything other than chronological is no good. It’s annoying and confusing.

                13. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  This is all really useful — thank you, everyone. I’m finding the arguments against upvoting pretty compelling, especially Jaguar’s point about homogenizing things. I’m leaning toward just leaving things as they are in that regard.

                14. Ultraviolet*

                  In my opinion, posts that say only +1 and LOL and similar just don’t even register as a problem. My impression is that they’re fairly uncommon, so they don’t add too much to the post count, and I think that when you’re skimming the comment section, your eye goes right over them and they don’t feel burdensome. I think that time put into implementing this would have an extremely low return on investment.

                18. Gene*

                  Not what you’re after (well, not directly), but implementing an upvote system would likely increase your page view stats without much of an impact on unique viewers. That’s because once someone started seeing their post get upvoted, they will keep coming back to see how many it gets. And more pageviews = more $ for Alison.

                  And, as someone else said, the competitive among us would start tailoring our comments to get more votes.

                19. nom*

                  If you’re looking for an example of a robust and (imho) useful commenting structure that takes the upvote mechanic to the next level, may I suggest something like the system used on the Ravelry forums?

                  Caveat: I am not a tech person, and so have no idea how complicated this would be to implement on AAM. But I will say that having more options for marking posts actually seems to produce higher quality feedback than just up/down voting. (Categories are: educational, interesting, funny, agree, disagree, love; they’re implemented as small buttons that run along the bottom of each post.) It definitely fixes the long string of +1s and also trims down the “omg so funny” comment variety. Also, up/down votes do not affect comment position (unlike Reddit), but it’s super easy to skim for comments that have gotten lots of feedback.

                20. Ruffingit*

                  I agree with fposte on this one. Just not a fan of upvotes, they tend to turn into a popularity contest no matter how hard you try not to let that happen. I would like to be able to edit posts though. I know that is something we’ve been asking for a long time and would love if you would consider that Alison.

              2. INFJ*

                I don’t necessarily think that simply agreeing with a comment doesn’t add value. This is particularly true in cases in which the OP is unsure about the level of “normalcy” of their experience. If they read the comments and see dozens of people saying, “OMG this is not normal!”, then that carries more weight.

                This is something that can be achieved with upvoting, if that possibility gets explored. I’m trying to think of good reasons for not implementing an upvoting/like option. I’ll come back if I think of something good. Maybe do a trial run?

            2. Fabulous*

              I don’t know about upvotes (is that a reddit thing?) but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve wanted to “like” a comment instead of just using a mindless reply. I don’t reply to a lot of things because I don’t have anything new to add, but to be able to add emphasis to a particularly good comment by liking or “upvoting” would be great!!

              3. MegaMoose, Esq*

                I think that calling them “upvotes” instead of “likes” is related to sites like Reddit where posts are or can be sorted by popularity, or conversely, can disappear with enough “downvotes.” It does seem to have become basically interchangeable with like, though.

              4. Agnodike*

                See, one of the things I really like about the comments here is that I think the format encourages thoughtful contribution instead of just tons of agreement. I see a lot of comments that say “Yes! I agree! And also, here’s an expansion on the point or an opinion from a slightly different angle that adds to the conversation.” I think that’s really valuable, and I wonder if we might have fewer people adding those thoughtful expansions if it were easier to just click “like” or upvote.

          3. Engineering Manager*

            Would it be possible to have some sort of color coding or flag for off topicness to keep the occasional short approved type, either by moderator or user? That way, if you see this, you know it is off topic and should not produce a ton of additional comments.

        2. Formica Dinette*

          What I’m trying to stamp out are lengthy threads about things that aren’t related to the original post but which may have come up organically in the discussion. (And complicating things, I think it’s fine to have a couple of comments that do that; it’s when it becomes a lengthy thread itself that I get concerned.)

          My feedback? I like what you wrote above. Scrolling past a few off-topic comments here and there is no big deal to me, but when there get to be so many that I feel like I’m digging through them to find the on-topic comments, I lose interest and end up feeling less connected to the AAM community.

        3. Lynly*

          I’ve only been reading for a handful of months, and I think you need a very strong, tough-to-be-misconstrued message about digressions. Today’s “tonsils” post got to the point of ridiculous with the number of commenters chiming in about their own or a family member’s tonsil experience. It’s too much and goes way beyond addressing your (Alison’s) advice or the original question. It’s bogging down the site imo. I vote for some heavy handiness, especially when making a reset to encourage new and improved commenting habits.

          1. tigerlily*

            See and to me that thread didn’t feel off topic. Repetitive, yes, but not off topic. All of it provided support and ammunition for the OP to push back against her boss’ thinking of how easy a tonsillectomy would be.

            1. Emilia Bedelia*

              It’s not off topic, but repetitive is its own type of annoying.
              Maybe this is uncaring of me, but I don’t want to hear 10 people’s stories about how they had their tonsils out and it was really painful. I really think we get into diminishing returns with how many people reply with the same exact thoughts. How many times does the OP need to hear “I agree, and here’s another personal anecdote that doesn’t add anything to the conversation other than agreement”? 3? 5? 10? 20? When does the point get made?

              1. Dot Warner*

                I agree. Yes, the boss was way out of line and yes, the surgery isn’t nearly as simple as they were suggesting, but that doesn’t mean we need to hear from everybody who had their tonsils out and had a bad time of it. Sorry folks, I like you all and everything, but I’m not sure how so many of the same story is helpful to the OP.

            2. Dizzy Steinway*

              I don’t think it did provide ammunition though. Even if it was an easy, simple operation it still wouldn’t be appropriate for someone’s boss to insist on it!

              1. Observer*

                Sure. But it provided two things. One is the reinforcement that, yes, your boss was wildly wildly out of line. When something this outrageous happens, it can be easy to question whether you are the one who is nuts or the other person. All of these stories said “Hey, OP, it’s NOT you – it is most definitely your crazy boss.”

                Secondly, if the OP feels pressured into this conversation (remember, she’s worried about HR’s response here), this is the kind of ammunition that let’s the OP say, with a tone of amazement “Do you realize that you are pressuring me to have SURGERY – that could keep me out of work for WEEKS! just because of one day off a year?!”

          2. Observer*

            While it was repetitive, which can be its own problem, it was actually very much on topic. The idea being that the boss is a loon for even suggesting it. Why? Because the surgery can go very badly. And, with several people saying “Is this really such a bad suggestion, I don’t anyone who had a hard time with this” that was going to be underscored.

        4. Emilia Bedelia*

          Frankly, I REALLY HATE when people make unrelated comments or go on wildly irrelevant tangents and I am 100% on board with heavier handed moderation of off topic comments. The CAH thread this morning was a perfect example.
          In my own perfect commenting world, however, no one would comment on other people’s usernames or correct minor typos or complain about autocorrect either, so perhaps I’m more stringent about off topic commenting than the general population. But it is definitely annoying to scroll through off topic tangents, especially on traditionally hot button issues that we’ve rehashed in many comment threads before (pranks! leggings! what can I microwave at work!)

          1. Lynly*

            Yes. And, honestly, all the tangent back and forth can start to make the site feel a little clique-ish at times. It’s not good.

            1. Taylor Swift*

              Things have felt a little clique-ish to me lately. I don’t know if I’ve just not been in the same mood I used to be when reading this blog, or if things really have changed. Or maybe both!

          2. Newby*

            Most of the autocorrect complaining is because people want to be clear that autocorrect changed the meaning of the statement that they made, potentially making it offensive (like Jewish instead of newish). One comment to correct it is not really a tangent.

          3. Marisol*

            I can’t relate to this sentiment. If I find that I’m losing interest in something on this blog, I simply skim farther down the page until I find something piques my interest again. And occasionally, an entire post is just not my cup of tea, so I close the tab and return the the site another day. In real life, I frequently observe people talking about things I think are boring, so I don’t join the conversation. I don’t read every article of every magazine I buy. Some things I opt into, some things I opt out of; there are numerous choice points like this throughout the day. To my mind, this is just how life works, and really no big deal.

            I can see how threads that are wildly off-topic pose a problem because they undermine the goal of the site. But occasional jokes, auto-correct stuff, etc., to my mind, add character.

            I definitely don’t see what’s so annoying about the act of scrolling, and I’m a really high strung person who is easily annoyed. But scrolling takes seconds, or fractions of seconds. Just not feelin’ ya on this.

            1. Emilia Bedelia*

              I don’t expect people to totally agree with me- that’s why I wanted to specify that this is my own personal opinion, not how the site should actually be run, because it would be no fun for anyone. I would never comment on someone’s post to tell them that they shouldn’t have made a comment just because I didn’t like reading it. But I will reserve the right to, in my head, think that it was unnecessary.

              It really isn’t a big deal to scroll and ultimately I will continue reading as I always do,because, as you say, that’s how life works, but Alison asked for feedback, so I thought I’d stick up for myself and any other sticks-in-the-mud who are mildly annoyed by off topic commentary.

                1. OhBehave*

                  I have come to realize that some thoughts I may have are not necessarily new. Someone else has invariably come up with the same solution or idea. If a post or item has a ton of comments, I opt not to add my comment because I figure it’s already been mentioned. Now I question that logic if the OP is looking for an agreement amongst the commentariat.

                  I do tend to read the majority of comments if it’s not a huge number. I will add my $.02 to the discussion only if my slant hasn’t been mentioned.

                  I have noticed that many of us will gently, or not too gently admonish someone who is passing judgment, opining a diagnosis, or slamming an OP. We also need to be better about stopping the tangents in comments. I think we all want our voices to be heard and to be relevant to others. Thus the chiming in about our personal experiences with xyz.

            2. INFJ*

              I agree with you!

              Another point to consider: Novel readers (ie, new readers; not people who like literature). This might be the first time they’re seeing a 100+ comment thread about whether or not leggings are professional workwear and find the different perspectives really insightful and valuable. Meanwhile, regular readers are rolling their eyes because we’ve read this 30 times before.

              But that’s part of the deal when you are a DAILY reader of the same blog. Sometimes things will be rehashed. If I don’t feel like reading 20 people’s different food smelliness preferences, I’ll just scroll past it. But on some days, I might be up for reading that and thinking, “huh. I never would have guessed that someone finds the smell of peanut butter repulsive!”

              1. Marisol*

                hah! 20 different people’s food smelliness preferences. Yeah, I think some days it’s about *me* and how engaged *I feel* rather than the content itself. Some days, I’m just not in the mood to discuss food smelliness preferences, but other days–bring it!

            3. Book Person*

              Yes, I’m actually more in this camp myself. I comment rarely, but have been reading the site for just over two years now, and the threads with the huge comment strings (digressions and all) are the reason I became an active reader. I tend to skim posts that have relatively few comments (relatively is “100 or fewer” at this point!) or wait for them to gain more comments before reading, and I look through the threads to find those comments that start long comment strings. The digressions and factoids and story-sharing is interesting and what I find sets the site apart. I understand the desire to moderate/rein it in—and it’s your site to direct as you please!—but I’ll honestly miss that aspect if it goes.

            4. Ann O.*

              Now that I have eye strain issues, scrolling can be physically painful for me. I don’t know how common this is, but based on my reading, eye strain is increasingly common due to the amount of us that have computer-based day jobs.

            5. Dizzy Steinway*

              Great post. Off-topic stuff is only really a problem because it means people stopped helping the letter writer.

          4. Squeeble*

            In my experience, there are two ways things go off on tangents, and one of them I enjoy and one I don’t:

            The first is when there’s a very relevant comment where someone describes an experience they’ve had. Other commenters, also having experienced the thing, chime in about how they’ve dealt with it. Things go off topic pretty quickly, but it’s generally because everyone is sharing a common thought and enjoying the chance to talk about it. Jokes ensue.

            The second is when there’s a throwaway line in a comment that isn’t relevant to the overall point, but someone pounces on it. Then an argument ensues about whether the commenter is right to focus on that, and whether their reaction to it is appropriate or not, and it spirals out from there. (The CAH example is like this, although I’m not picking on that one–it happens here all the time.)

            1. Marisol*

              Very insightful. The first one feels purposeful/constructive, the second one, pointless/destructive.

            2. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Yes! This is really true. If I could come up with easy shorthand to describe each of these (like we have with the existing “not everyone can have sandwiches” rule) or to describe the difference between them, that could be a good way to navigate it in the site rules.

              1. LizB*

                Maybe “Consider the letter: what are the three biggest themes? If the conversation would be interesting reading for someone looking for information on one of those themes, it’s okay. If the conversation doesn’t connect to any of those themes, it’s too off-topic.”

                So for the tonsils letter, riffing on the theme of tonsillectomies, doctors’ notes, and bosses who control your sick time might be okay; a big thread about how to argue with your doctor until they do a procedure they don’t recommend would not. Maybe that’s still too broad, but I think for me that’s where I would draw the line.

              2. Ultraviolet*

                MegaMoose suggested in a comment at 4:22pm somewhere above this one that a recent derail happened when someone compared the OP’s situation to a TV show, and then a bunch of people added comments that were about the show but not in any way related to OP’s situation. I think you could come up with an example based on that. Something along the lines of:

                Comment 1: OP’s boss seems to have learned all their management techniques from Darth Vader.
                Comment 2: I’m so excited for the next Star Wars movie!

                That’s not the best example, but maybe it gets my point across?

                Another way to possibly say it is, “If the comment you want to make doesn’t include any mention of the OP’s situation, please save it for the open thread.”

                (I am really thankful for the sandwiches rule, by the way! The type of comment it curbs is super off-putting to me.)

              3. Marisol*

                On Mark Sisson’s blog, and Tim Ferriss’ blog, both health blogs, they have a header at the beginning of each comment section reminding commenters to be polite, but they do it in a cute way. (Not sure how to describe it succinctly but worth googling.) Maybe just a reminder that basically says “be nice” would help. The difference between the two kinds of posts Squeeble mentions might simply come down to the intention/attitude of the poster.

              4. Not So NewReader*

                Digressions? Then the digressions have digressions….

                Sometimes a commenter will chime in with a tangent question. We tend to try to help that person, too.

                In a way, having one of the safer places on the net to talk with strangers probably increases the likelihood of these side conversations happening.

                Can we say something like “That looks like a good subtopic for an open thread.”?
                It stops the discussion at the moment but invites the person back to talk again on a different day.

            3. A Plain-Dealing Villain*

              I know I tend to be brusk, and I’ve found that sometimes when I comment, others seem to jump on me for something they think I implied. It makes me not want to participate. I can’t think of an example, but I remember a few times here where commenters have pointed something out that others said wasn’t relevant, and the OP came back with an update and said that was their issue and thanks for the insight, so I worry a downvote system would limit those alternative voices. Maybe flags that tag a comment as helpful or in need of moderation would work.

              1. Electric Hedgehog*

                There’s a couple of commenters who have this same issue, I believe. I brought up last week how right leaning politicalish posts tend to draw ire. There was mixed levels of agreement there, and I really do respect that this is a left leaning blog and it may continue to not really foster full political diversity. But what you say here rings true to me. A throwaway statement or generalization is pounced upon and torn apart with vigor, and the original commenter has to post like fifteen times to clarify and regularity a point. It gets tiresome and begins to feel like a personal attack.

                To compound this, I suspect certain regular commenters may have minor personal feuds against each other, which isn’t super respectful or friendly.

                1. fposte*

                  Oh, that’s making me rethink something; I will sometimes respond more briskly to a regular commenter not because we’re feuding but because there’s enough history of goodwill between us that I don’t think I’m likely to be taken as curt or terse, or because I know they’re fine with direct (Joey was a great example of that), but to people on the outside that’s not necessarily going to be clear. I will reconsider that approach.

        5. Kyrielle*

          I sometimes enjoy the digressions, but I also see where they can be a real problem for people trying to follow the thread. (Actually, I can see both those things – lengthy digressions not of interest to me get annoying if they’re embedded in a sub-thread I want to see more of and can’t just collapse away.)

          If the ‘asking people to cut it down’ bit doesn’t work….

          What if you gave the digressions somewhere to go? Post a “Digressions capture” post at the start of each week, and link it in that week’s post. Then when someone wants to discuss Cards Against Humanity after it comes up organically, they can make a post of “Taking ‘Cards Against Humanity’ to the Digressions Post’ and go add a comment there starting the CAH sub-thread?

          I don’t know if that would work. I mean, it’s extra hassle for you, and extra hassle for commenters, and the digressions post would get a ridiculously large number of comments, so people without browser search would have issues finding it. And ideally the person would link to it, but then their comment would go into moderation and you could end up with several people all separately taking the same thing to the digressions thread…..

          I’m basically just musing here and trying to think of a way to let the digression continue, but *out of the way*.

          1. hbc*

            That’s what I was thinking too. I have no idea how to make it work smoothly, but being able to click somewhere and continue the conversation would be very nice. Maybe something like an open thread that’s meant to contain the digressions for the week, so it doesn’t get too big.

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I think just directing people to the existing open threads could potentially work. I probably wouldn’t want to set up a whole separate thing for it though, since the open threads are already a bit of a digression from the site mission.

            1. Elizabeth H.*

              As I mentioned below I think that the open threads probably reinforce/encourage off topicness across the site as a whole. I would wager that if you made them biweekly instead like one week general work, one week off topic, or just had weekly general work open threads and *once a month* off topic open threads, it would cut down a lot on digressions/discussions in comments on all regular posts, because it wouldn’t reinforce “this site is a nice place to chat with other commenters”

              I hope this doesn’t sound cold and Machiavellian, it’s just my 2 cents on what likely influences people’s behavior.

                1. Elizabeth H.*

                  Yeah I remember. I still hypothesize that in the long run it would act like a deterrent. The point isn’t to make the open thread better, it’s to make the regular post comments better.

            2. Development Professional*

              One of the other blogs I read with an active commentariat has a *daily* open thread. I realize that might be too much if you already feel that the open threads are a digression. But if you had even one more work-related open thread, on Tuesdays or something, it could help act as a release valve. The open threads don’t end up being very active more than 48 hours after they go up (or at least that’s my perception) and if you’re itching for some off-topic feedback on a Tuesday or Wednesday, you could go back to Friday’s (or Saturday’s) open thread, but probably few people will see it. Or you just hold it until Friday again, by which point sometimes the moment has passed.

              1. A Plain-Dealing Villain*

                Hmm, are chat rooms still a thing? I feel like an ongoing chat might actually work better as an open thread replacement, if such a thing is even manageable.

                1. Antilles*

                  Yes, chat rooms are still a thing. The common one now is Discord, which works more or less like a chat room that you join and basically anybody can post. The posts are stored on a server somewhere so you can open it up whenever and quickly skim up on what you missed. AFAICT, it’s fairly commonly used in more ‘techy’ communities and is particularly common in gaming.
                  That said, it’s probably not a great choice for AAM, since (1) it requires either a special browser add-on or installing a piece of free software (not desirable given that the post numbers clearly indicate that most of the talking happens during ‘typical work hours’, presumably on work computers) and (2) even if you start with a tight-knit good community, it’s way too easy to get off the rails and become a huge timesink for the admin/mod.

                2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  I’ve always avoided doing anything like a chat room or message boards because that kind of forum isn’t really the mission of the site; the open threads are sort of a fun add-on but not the core thing I want the site to do.

            3. Not So NewReader*

              I remember when open threads were once (?) a month and then sometimes we would have a general open thread. Both got very popular so you started doing them once a week. I thought it was to help cut down on the side chatter during the week.

              This is the problem when a group of people for the most part like each other. Chatter ensues. I see this at church. My pastor has a hard time getting started some Sundays because there is so. much. chatter going on.

              Am chuckling. Maybe we should “accuse” each other of “visiting”.

            4. Fish Microwaver*

              I find the friday work related open thread very helpful and aligned to this site’s mission. The Sunday one not so much but I get that it is enjoyable to discuss non work stuff. So I think off topic is well catered to.

        6. Myrin*

          I’m pretty sure I’ve said before that I’m 100% in favour of a general “no off-topic” rule, but I’ll just reiterate it again since you’re specifically asking for feedback! :) (And let me also say in all honesty and without wishing to belittle Captain Akward in any way that the fact that the comments on her site seem to be especially prone to getting into the minutiae of every little off-topic topic (ha!) was a huge factor in my stopping to read every day and now just occasionally coming by and skimming the content. I found it very exhausting and actively off-putting.)

          Also, I’ve been mulling over what makes me think of any given tangent as “off-topic” and what not and I think I’ve kind of come to a conclusion?
          My inner rule, so to speak, seems to be along the lines of “Does this sub-topic pertain to what the letter is about?”.

          The CAH discussion from earlier today? – The question wasn’t about playing CAH at work.
          On the other hand, several smaller discussions around email etiquette when talking to non-native speakers? – The OP specifically asked what to write in such an email so a certain back-and-forth on that topic might give her some good ideas wrt what she’s been wondering about.

          Poor Henry from a couple of weeks ago who wanted to know how to show support for his direct report who’s been accused of racial discrimination? – The question very specifically wasn’t about whether his report was indeed racist or not.
          On the other hand, someone’s own experience of how they’ve been falsely accused of something and how much it meant to them that their supervisor had their back? – Directly relevant to the question.

          Last week’s question by an OP who was in charge of her company’s staff photos and then had one person angry and sulking about the normal lighting changes OP made to her photo? – Was about how to deal with the coworker’s behaviour and not about whether the changes OP made were in fact out of bounds or not; definitely wasn’t an invitation to have people accuse her of racism, sexism, or greatly exaggerating her competence and experience.

          I mean, I realise this doesn’t always work. Sometimes OPs are completely focussed on one thing when the entire problem of their situation is something completely different (see the famous intern who campaigned for a different dress code; her letter was about the fairness-or-not of her having been fired but the actual problem was her own behaviour). But in such cases, I like to take my cues from Alison. With the abovementioned photo-OP, for example, Alison allowed for the possibility that OP did indeed go to for with her photoshopping in her original answer; in such cases, I don’t actually see any need to specifically bring it up again and again.

          I don’t know if that makes sense and in the end, it’s probably not as clear-cut as this might make it out to be, but I’ve found that this “rule” has served me well personally.

          1. anonynony*

            Related to the photography question, I wouldn’t have called those threads off-topic. Nobody was running in to go “you’re a racist!” they were saying, consider where she’s coming from and whether it’s possible you went too far. Here’s a reason why this may be particularly sensitive for some people that you should be aware of.

            1. Myrin*

              Like I said, I think it was off-topic insofar as it wasn’t what the original question was about (it was about dealing with the coworker’s behaviour, not “Did I err in making these changes?”). The OP already showed sensitivity to the issue as she listed what she did and didn’t do and Alison herself said in her answer to make sure that there really wasn’t any bias going on during the photoshopping. In such a situation, I don’t think it’s helpful to have a gazillion comments which point out again and again the very same thing OP was already conscious of and Alison had already mentioned. Alison started moderating the comments on this thread because it got so bad, I think I’m justified in saying it went off-topic.

              (Not to mention, these comments can come across as incredibly condescending.
              OP in letter: “I made sure to be conscious of any X bias.”
              Commenters: “Are you aware the X bias exists? Hopefully you weren’t acting out of X bias!”
              OP in comments: “Like I said, I made sure to be cognisant of that.”
              Commenters: “But have you REALLY thought about X bias??”)

          2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            I’ll say upfront that I did not read either the “direct report accused of racial discrimination” or the “photo editing” comment threads, but based on your descriptions they would feel in-bounds to me. In both situations, the appropriate response (from the LW) would, for me, depend on the reality of the situation, so whether Henry’s report actually behaved in a racist way, and whether the photo editor did overstep or not, meaningfully impact what I hope the LW decides to do.

            What ends up feeling unhelpful is when we go down a rabbit hole of “what if” conversations, coming up with increasingly unlikely scenarios that would change our or Alison’s responses.

            I realize that I’m trying to draw a fine line. I think it’s more a matter of degree than of difference.

            1. Myrin*

              I agree, but I also think that this is where the “take OPs at their word” rule comes in. Henry said he was sure that his report didn’t behave in a racist manner. The photo OP said that she did not change anyone’s skin tone. So for the commentariat to hammer in “But are you sure? Are you really, really sure?” seems incredibly inappropriate, not to mention obnoxious, to me.

              1. Myrin*

                Oh, and to add to that, my point – which might have gone lost in my rambling – was that these are the rules by which I decide what I personally feel is off-topic and as such don’t engage in; I didn’t mean to propose that anyone else – let alone Alison and her site! – follow such thinking as well.

              2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                Like I said, I didn’t read it. But while I strongly believe in the “take OPs at their word” rule/guidance, I do think that it’s worth a little probing.

                So, for me, saying (or implying) to the photo editing OP “I don’t believe people would react this way if you didn’t do something egregious like lighten someone’s skin tone; you must have done something wrong” is unproductive. But saying: “It sounds like you may have touched on some sensitivities of the colleague who reacted badly. I know I’d be pretty upset if someone lightened my teeth in a picture without my permission. I don’t buy into the notion that teeth — which are naturally sortof cream colored and get more yellow as we age — have to be Hollywood white to be “beautiful” or “professional” would be a helpful comment.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  The issue was how it was being said — it was accusatory, even after the OP clarified. And the comments to Henry in the other post were really over the line (lots of whitesplaining racism to a person of color, etc.).

                2. fposte*

                  I agree with what you’re saying–to some extent. That was exactly how I felt on that post, and I thought it was reasonable for that point to get made (as well as the point that some of us have no clue of what’s standard treatment for a photo so it’s easy for us to get the wrong end of the stick).

                  But I don’t want the OP to hear “this could have been a mistake” ninety times in ninety different responses and subthreads, either. So I’m thinking about a personal rule for me of only asking a more “probing” question (that’s not quite the right word but I can’t think of a more specific one) if I’ve read the whole comments section first and made sure it’s not already there. Because a lot of what we’re dealing with right now is the effect of volume, and what’s reasonable once becomes unreasonable when it’s repeated umpteen times.

                3. OhBehave*

                  I did notice in the photo post one commenter in particular who persisted with the racist theme. Some commented their disagreement and then a few comments later, again this person regurgitated the same argument.

                4. Kate*

                  Except the OP in that post already wrote that she didn’t turn cream teeth white, the bad lighting made cream teeth turn highlighter yellow, and she “whitened” them to cream again. And although I know you did read that post, the people who made comments like the one you suggested did, so they were really ignoring the OP and hammering on her.

              3. Hannah*

                I think that “don’t be rude to the OP or anyone else” should of course be a rule, but exploring that there could theoretically be another side to the story should not be disallowed. With the photo editing post, the OP may have been sure that her edits were appropriate, but you really wouldn’t want to take the OP’s situation and draw a rule from it that it’s OK for someone (an amateur who is not a professional photographer and was not hired for photo editing) to edit someone’s photo, unsolicited, and post it publicly, after the person already approved it as is. Maybe the OP genuinely improved the photos, but generally, others should not follow her example because amateur photoshopping is usually BAD, and could even be offensive. If we only answer the specific letter but can’t broaden it to talk about general rules, then literally what is the point of the blog. I didn’t comment on that post, but it seemed to me like the commenters rebelled a bit because the response did not address this point in a satisfying way, and commenters who tried to make this point were argued with.

                1. Natalie*

                  Broadening every single discussion to “rules” sounds both exhausting and impossible to me. Something I actually really cherish from this blog is understanding that there often aren’t hard and fast rules that must be followed.

                  Especially when someone has clearly stated that whatever they’re writing about is part of their job. If a doctor rights in about some kind of work issue involving surgery (whatever that possibly could be), that doesn’t need to be followed by 200 posts about how it’s really not normally okay to cut a person’s abdomen open.

                2. Taylor Swift*

                  There were a lot of comments about whether or not the OP in that situation was qualified enough to know the difference, even though she said in her letter that she was. And quite a few comments about whether or not she lied about what kind of edits she was making. But for me, the main problem with those kinds of derails is that 50% of the comments end up rehashing essentially the same points.

                3. Ultraviolet*

                  I think it just comes down to what Alison said in a comment on that post:

                  “It’s totally fine to point out how this can intersect with race and raise the question, but it’s not okay to tell the OP [it] definitely has racial overtones, when we have nothing indicating that so far.”

                  Pointing out things that might possibly be at play is one thing, but trying to root out “another side to the story” puts the OP in a weird defensive position relative to the commenters. People on that post accused OP of having “let slip” certain facts they shared in the comments, and claimed that we can’t take OP’s word that the photos turned out fine because OP hadn’t provided a sufficiently comprehensive work history for us to gauge their ability. This is sort of meta, but that behavior was so far beyond the pale that I don’t think anyone was at all justified in being upset that it was shut down without very much discussion about whether less aggressive, more open-ended points would have been okay.

                4. Ann O.*

                  To me, it boils down to the fact that all we know about the situation is what the OP reports, so doubting is often functionally accusing the OP of either lying or not being perceptive about their situation. There are some clear cases where the OPs provide facts that undercut their interpretation of events, but usually Alison addresses that in her answer and the question directly relates (like the abusive partners who write in wanting validation that their behavior is okay). I think some asking for additional information can be pretty reasonable, but we shouldn’t give conclusions before we ask for the additional information. We should always be aware that we weren’t there, and we don’t know the full context.

        7. Mouse*

          Could it be possible to collapse subthread levels like we can collapse the main level? That way, if you want to read you can, but if you’re not interested you can skip it.

          1. Zombeyonce*

            That’s the thing I think is missing that would make AAM comments much easier to deal with. I wouldn’t mind off topic comments if I could just hit the minimize button to not read any below. Only being able to do that with the first comment in a thread doesn’t work for me. An expand/collapse option for every comment with a reply (like reddit) would make a huge difference.

              1. Zombeyonce*

                Awesome! Maybe they could also look into to the possibility of being able to be notified of comments replying to a comment you post, rather than all new comments (also like reddit). I have check the box to be notified of follow up comments but realized I was notified of every new comment on the page, so was getting a ton of emails and had to go to the page and do a Ctrl+F to find my comment to see if there was a reply. Trying to dig through 300 emails for relevant comments is just too much and makes me avoid returning to a thread.

                2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  We did once try a plugin that was supposed to do that, but it didn’t work as it was supposed to. But she’s going to look at whether there are other ways to do it because, who knows, maybe there’s something new by now that would work.

              2. Jaguar*

                I was thinking along the same lines – my (bad) solution to any problem is to program a solution – but with you (or another moderator) stamping certain posts and their replies as “click to expand,” which doesn’t remove the posts but hides them away.

              3. Natalie*

                If you haven’t already asked them about this, is there anything they could do to make the process of deleting comments easier? For the long chains, in particular, if there was some fix that would let you delete a comment and all of it’s children, it seems like that would be useful.

              4. Dorothy Mantooth*

                This was my thought as well. I got into the habit of Collapsing all threaded comments before diving in so could I decide which threads I wanted to see responses to. If there was another layer of collapse that would be helpful. Sometimes when I expand the sub-comments, I then have to scroll forever to get to the next one – but if it could be collapsed back up or something I can move right along as soon as I’m done with that thread.

              5. Ask a Manager* Post author

                Okay, talked with her. She played around with that in the past, and her concern was that adding all those additional calculations for the page to do would slow down the page loading time, especially on posts with a lot of comments. She’s going to take another look at it though to see if there’s a way around that.

            2. Zombeyonce*

              Also allowing editing of comments for some period of time would be fantastic. I’ve seen sites where you can edit for up to 10 minutes after posting and it’s great for times like now when I forgot to include a specific point, or when I’m commenting on my phone and my toddler hits a button before I’m done typing.
              But mainly, additional minimize options would make it so Alison wouldn’t have to be as vigilant about deleting comments since it would be easy to minimize a whole swath of them with one click while still following the rest of the thread.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                I don’t think I can set up an editing button without switching to a totally new commenting system (which I don’t want to do for a whole bunch of reasons), but an interesting thing about this — a lot of bloggers turn that option off even when their system does allow it, because someone will say something controversial, people will react to it, and then the person will go back and edit their original comment so as to make it seem they never said it — and that that can happen even with a relatively short editing period. And that is a mess.

                1. Elizabeth H.*

                  I 100% agree on not switching to a different commenting system. I honestly think this is perfect.

            3. The Other Dawn*

              Yes! I’m always thinking this would be great to have. Many times I just want to collapse part of the thread, either because it’s off topic or a tangent. Also, it’s so easy to lose track of who’s replying to which comment when it gets really long.

          2. Emi.*

            I was just coming here to suggest this! You can do that on Disqus, but I love that you don’t require a login. Is this feasible to implement?

          3. Myrin*

            On the topic of collapsing threads, is it just me or do threads not stay collapsed once you’ve left the site? (It could totally be me – I have some weird browser screw-ups from time to time.) There are some topics that I simply can’t read about because they make me anxious and upset. But if I leave the site and come back and the thread in question is un-collapsed again I’ll inevitably end up reading about it again because I don’t remember where it was exactly. Is there a way to make such a permanent collapse happen?

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              You can set threads to collapse or expand site-wide (by checking/unchecking “set collapse all as default site-wide” at the top), but you can’t make it remember your preferences for just a single page. (To do that, we’d have to load you up with cookies.)

            2. Dizzy Steinway*

              You can select ‘collapse all’ as default – it’s at the top of the comments.

        8. Sunflower*

          I agree with this. It’s difficult because I do feel that sometimes these posts go off into separate topics that actually are quite useful but they take away from the letter and make it harder for people to chime in. It can be especially frustrating when they go off topic into something that has already been heavily discussed in past letters or encompass the overall general views of this site.

          One thing that drives me totally insane- when posts venture off into a 100 comment thread of ‘where do I buy/get this’. Work attire posts almost always venture into some form of ‘where do I buy work clothes’ and I find that incredibly distracting esp since almost every Friday there is a post about it on the open thread(which is totally fine!). I’ve found sometimes posts about office parties/showers can start ‘etiquette wars’ which at this point we’ve pretty much agreed can be regional and hearing 100 different people from all over the world chime in is not helpful.

          I feel like you have been doing a pretty good job moderating these and it’s hard to say what crosses the line. There are things that are annoying(like when people post one word comments on ridiculous letters like ‘No’ or ‘OMG’ and then I need to sift through 100 of them to find useful information) but I wouldn’t call that breaking the site rules. I do like when you chime in and say ‘we should save this for another post’ or ‘please discuss on Friday thread’

        9. emma2*

          Something I find myself doing a lot is writing my opinion/insight about certain aspects of the question rather than directly answering the question itself. Or just sharing my own anecdote of a similar situation. (For example, “something I noticed about business meetings…blahblahblah” rather than actually answering a question about business meetings.) Is this okay?

          It’s just that a lot of the time I don’t find myself qualified to actually give advice, or Allison/other commenters have already provided stellar advice and I don’t have anything to add. I like to think my insights (along with other commenters’) will just add to a deeper understanding of the situation the OP might be in and help them formulate a solution. I also like discussing things, in general.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            What you’re describing is okay by me!

            What happened today that I removed was that someone relayed an anecdote that was relevant to the letter and which mentioned Cards Against Humanity, and someone else took issue with CAH at work events, and a CAH-related derail ensured. There was another one about how common it is to have wisdom teeth removed, which developed from the letter’s mention of tonsils being removed. If that kind of thing was very occasional, or just a comment or two, I wouldn’t care at all — it’s when it’s lengthy and frequent that I worry about the overall impact.

        10. Elizabeth H.*

          I agree. . . . I actually interpreted off-topic exactly this way, about stuff not related to the original post even if it came up semi-naturally. I think I know what you mean about it being fine to have a couple of comments that do that but not anything beyond that. I like the sense of community here but I think people can engage in personal conversations about random topics in the open threads and I don’t really like it in the regular posts. This isn’t a message board/commenting forum. I have belonged to a bunch of those in my day and I definitely do not want this to be one. My 2 cents is that the rise of more comments per post, and more off topic posts, has increased organically over time in correlation with the weekend open threads. When people chat with each other in those threads, it becomes more of a message board/commenting forum vibe and then there is the desire to chat with people in any comment thread. This is natural but it can get cliquey also so I think it’s very good to restrict the regular posts to discussions specifically relevant to the letters.

          1. fposte*

            I think this is a reasonable thought. It’s okay for something to have been part of the yeast that grew the blog comments but need to be in its own breadbox now :-).

        11. Lana Kane*

          I totally get your meaning and I agree 100%. This is a thing on so many boards I have read over the years, and I personally find it annoying to scroll past a bunch of comments that have completely veered off the topic at hand.

          The occasional, short digression is fine, for me. It’s lengthy derails that make me want to just close the thread.

        12. Augusta Sugarbean*

          Alison, what would you think about trying to break up these open threads into general topics? I tend to skip them when they start getting more than 300 or so comments. I’m on the West Coast and by the time I am up and reading your site, open threads are already huge. I skim them occasionally and try to contribute but haven’t often posted questions or comments because they don’t seem to be seen by many readers

          Would you be open to having separate open threads like Work-Related: Job Hunting, Work-Related: Personnel Problems, etc.? Maybe rotating the sub-topics on a weekly basis? Thank you!

          1. Sled dog mama*

            I know we’re trying to limit the +1 comments but all I have to add is that I like this idea

        13. Jozzie*

          I don’t know if this is useful (or feasible), but some sites (like youtube) make you click if you want to read the replies to a comment and otherwise you can just read the “main” comments. Maybe this could keep hidden the long subthreads but preserve them for people who do want them?

    4. Clever Name*

      Thank you for this! One of the reasons I don’t find Corporette all that appealing, even though I love fashion and reading about it and thinking about it, is because the comment section is hundreds of comments like: “Great dress. Now let me tell you about a work rant I have to get off my chest right this instant even though it has nothing to do with finding clothing for the office”

      1. YesYesYes*

        Funny, because that’s exactly WHY I read Corporette. There’s no other place for actual working women focused discussion of minutiae. It’s not about the fashion at all to me.

    5. Mimmy*

      Thanks Alison! I didn’t see this morning’s tangent, but I’ve noticed that the threads have become super-long in the past couple of months.

    6. Jaguar*

      Could you summarize what changed? It’s easy enough to follow those rules, I think, but knowing what changed could give context to how you’ve been moderating posts.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        No new rules there — just reworded for (hopefully) clarity. But I did add the thing about giving people the benefit of the doubt (which I think would solve many problems).

        1. New Bee*

          Might it be helpful to have a rule about repetition? As a West Coast reader, one thing I notice is some people tend to repeat their point up and down the thread. For example, on multi-question posts someone who responds about #1 then writes essentially the same response in every thread talking about that question.

          It’s super-noticeable as someone who reads most threads when they’re 90% done, and it often contributes to the perception that lots of people hold an opinion (esp. an unpopular one) when it’s really just a few. I remember TWOP had a “make your point and move on” rule that toned down some of that…aggression, for lack of a better word.

    7. emma2*

      These guidelines should be applied to real-life conversations as well!

      I am definitely guilty of some of these transgressions (especially going off topic.)

    8. Emi.*

      There’s nothing in the site rules about not talking about politics. I presume you haven’t dropped the rule, but is there a reason you don’t list it here?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I keep thinking about how to add it, but I can’t figure out how to say it in a way that won’t be interpreted to be more broad than I intend it. So I’ve been dealing with it case by case, which is admittedly not ideal … but also workable so far because it doesn’t come up that much. (On the other hand, it’s terrible modeling of being explicit about expectations.)

        1. Emi.*

          I definitely noticed when I first started commenting here that no one ever talked politics, so I didn’t, because I didn’t want to be That Person. I mean, I was also sick of politics, but my point is that even if you’re not being explicit, you do have some decently strong social norms set up.

          1. Detective Amy Santiago*

            That’s one of the reasons I started coming back and reading this site multiple times a day! It’s nice having a place that is free of the constant barrage.

        2. BuildMeUp*

          I personally like that you reiterate the “no politics” rule on every post where it might come up in the comments. I think it’s good to make sure anyone who might be reading the post without being familiar with the site sees it.

        3. ZNerd*

          What about something like… “Please steer clear of expressing personal views on controversial topics — e.g., politics, religion, gun control/rights, etc. — those subjects can quickly turn into unproductive arguments. Instead focus on…”

          Also, re the new and helpful “benefit of the doubt… don’t jump to a negative interpretation” note, perhaps it could include something like, “Assume that the LW is relaying accurate knowledge of the situation. It is okay to say ‘have you considered X’, but please don’t insist they don’t know the facts about their own question and workplace.”

          1. Lurkaroni*

            Long time lurker, first time commenting. The previous threads that were locked had some armchair experts, which both undermine/ignore the OP’s situation and some professional opinions(eg, lawyer, designer). I think reminding everyone to not be an armchair expert might help in such cases. Goes hand in hand with respect OP’s version of events.

    9. Lee*

      I think disallowing users to delete their comments or edit them in anyway is what leads to needing constant moderation. Whether the comment is just some random biased story, or some grammar nut rambling about accidentally pluralizing ONE word or what have you, the array of unnecessary comments gets old.
      Luckily, your advice is usually pretty spot-on, so the comment section is generally not necessary to get the work-related info one is looking for.

      1. Lee*

        I also think some of the users here can get cliquey and the “plus 100000000” to every comment that reinforces their own biased worldview is eye-rolling to say the least.

        1. Emi.*

          Can you elaborate on what you mean by “cliquey”? I’m curious what that means in a situation like this where the mechanisms for snubbing that I associate with cliqueness aren’t available (eg not parties to not-invite people to).

          1. HR Caligula*

            I’ll give an example of “cliquey” This is also a reason I don’t post nearly as much.
            I couldn’t find the original post to refresh my memory but it had something do with a Mother/Daughter working at the same job, mother in a managerial role. The actions the mother took were very unprofessional and a grand example of poor management. AAM and many posters called that behavior out. A few responses were of the “document, document, document” and “contact a lawyer” type.

            Even though I agreed I felt there was no need to (again) call out the poor management practice, it was well covered. I did clarify that there was no violation of employment law. A regular commentor and AAM both called me out how wrong the behavior was (like I supported it) and begrudgingly acknowledged my input was true.

              1. HR Caligula*

                That’s it. We all agreed it wasn’t good practice. That point had been clearly and repeatedly made and didn’t want to add to the pile. I did feel I could add a relevant point to that discussion.

                It read to me that since I didn’t vehemently enough respond how wrong it was (“cliquish?) I needed to be further schooled.

                That said, no grudges, I still follow daily.

                1. Ultraviolet*

                  I do sometimes find myself tempted to add a bunch of disclaimers to my comments to the effect that I understand A, and I’m not suggesting B, and I agree that C is the most important thing here….It makes me feel like I’m reciting a password or pledge or performing the correct salute to indicate that I belong and know how to express my opinion in the accepted way.

                  I wish I could think of an example—I know that would really help.

                2. Elizabeth H.*

                  @Ultraviolet I know exactly what you mean, I find myself doing that a lot too. Sometimes I have to go back and take qualifiers out so I am actually saying what I mean and not being wishy washy.

        2. Sunflower*

          I don’t think there’s anything wrong with one +100 comment but there’s no need to have a ton of them.

          Also I don’t really understand what you mean by ‘reinforces their own biased worldview’ or ‘biased story’. I think it’s pretty understood that when someone posts a story, it’s reflective of their personal experience. If anything, I see way more of ‘this is just my experience’ as opposed to’ this happened to me so it must be true of everyone’ happening on this site. I see it much much more on other blogs that I don’t comment on for that reason.

    10. Cath in Canada*

      Super late to this, but:

      how about embedding a simple poll on posts where there’s going to be a somewhat predictable amount of derailing / repetitive comments? e.g. when you provide more than one suggested script, or if there’s a straightforward way to address the original question, e.g. “OP’s boss was way out of line – yes / no / a bit”, or “that outfit sounds OK to me – yes / no”, or “this happened to me / this happened to someone I know / I’ve never heard of this”. Might cut down on some of the “me too” comments if people have another way to express that sentiment?

    11. Sylvia*

      Thank you. I’ll read over the rules again. I think I replied to the CAH thread saying that it was off-topic; in the future, I’ll just scroll past that sort of thing.

    12. Jessesgirl72*

      Way back in the dark ages of the Internet, we used to refer to the derailing on Usenet as “Mad Galloping Topic Drift”

      I think a change to the site rules using similar language could help people understand it’s not just totally off topic questions that you’re trying to discourage, but also the drift. I wish the open threads themselves didn’t get so unwieldy- sometimes I’d like to address a drift, but there’s no good way to signal that I’d be taking it to the weekend thread to the person I’d like to discuss something with. That’s not something I think you should (or could) really address, BTW- just an observation.

      And I don’t know if it needs to be a “rule” per se, but maybe something that mentions that you’d encourage people to walk away if a debate is getting heated and they feel like they are in danger of breaking the basic “be kind” rule. I know that I get worked up sometimes, and when that happens, in order to follow that, I force myself to leave that post/thread and let “someone be wrong on the internet”

      1. E, F and G*

        So far this has been one of my favourite comments on this topic.

        For the Mad Galloping Topic Drifters, can we just point them to the open thread from the previous week? There are normally enough regulars around to help with some of that. (And I want to continue imagining a group of internet horses galloping across the fenced in pages of previously wild internet pastures.)

        My problem is found in those grey area comments where things are still on the verge of okay but are being pushed in both directions. There was a comment chain recently where two sides were debating a point. Neither side was wrong and they were pretty much on topic but it was just starting to border on argumentative. Is there a polite way of saying slow down, yellow light?

      2. DoDah*

        This is interesting. I’m more of a reader than a poster. I’ve got a list in my head of people who I think are deliberately argumentative, so I scroll past their posts. I’ve seen Alison address it, but it goes on nonetheless.

        1. E, F and G*

          But that is one of the reasons why I find this comment chain intriguing. I can scroll past any post that says +1 because it indicates to that it is a simple post, I will recognize that the original poster has people in agreement but otherwise just appreciate being able to zoom past a few texts. And I find it an interesting quirk of this site.

          And I agree that some people are blatantly adversarial, but there are some people who may not have the same sense for wording, grammar, style and usage as others. And I find it can come across as people arguing over the same thing or not being able to quite reach a consensus because they haven’t found the right word combination.

    13. A. Schuyler*

      I really appreciate that you’re doing this. I read another blog which has almost entirely off-topic comments, and it means that I almost never visit the site (having read the article in RSS) because I know the comments won’t add any value. It’s so great that the comments here add a new perspective and additional support.

    14. Dizzy Steinway*

      Alison, one thing that strikes me is there’s no way to report off-topic posts like you can on, say, Reddit, or Facebook, which might make it easier to spot them or have them flagged for moderation (though I guess you wouldn’t want to do it by email as you’d wake up to zillions).

      I think the open threads are amazing and help foster a sense of community spirit – and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that commenters hear a) have those opportunities to bond and b) are nicer and less hate-y than on some sites (cough guardian.com cough).

      Anyway, I moderate a website as part of my job. You are unlikely to stop these problems from occurring altogether which I’m sure you know. I wonder if you’d consider calling them house rules rather than commenting guidelines? It’s a small thing but it can help to give people a sense of co-ownership (ours were co-produced with users so if people criticise the rules we can say: this is what users told us they wanted).

      I also wonder if it would help to have an easy to find mission statement. For people new to the blog, it might not be obvious what it actually is and isn’t for. Like, it’s for helping letter writers with their issues. Unlike some sites, the blog posts aren’t just a jumping off point to generate traffic to impress advertisers – you want it to stay on-topic.

      Lastly, people might not like this but something I’ve seen on Reddit (which you could also do with HTML I’m sure) is some subreddits have text in the box you type in to comment, like: Have you read the community guidelines? Or: Before you post, ask yourself if… Could you do something like that?

      1. LurkerDeLurks*

        Dizzy’s suggestions for a mission statement and renaming the guidelines as house rules are quite sound, imo. If *those* even prove insufficient, I think if there were some possibility of appointing a few regular commenters as light-touch community moderators, that might help usher folks toward seeing and following the norms here. I don’t think these comm-mods would need to have all that much responsibility, but here is why I think this approach could be successful:

        1. Regular and semi-regular readers and commenters alike have a (relatively) better grasp of the norms of commenting (e.g. don’t pile on).

        2. New commenters don’t often know the norms or follow them as well. (Sometimes regulars need reminding as well.)

        3. AAM can’t always moderate the posts to point out norm violations (her authority as blog owner with blue banner also goes a long way with effectively shutting down issues). In the past, she’s mentioned that she likes/dislikes some features of comments (in supplement, or as reminders, to her own codified guidelines).

        4. This results in several commenters, who are well aware of point 3 above, replying to the norm violator by saying “AAM has asked that we do not…” These in themselves become à la minute pile-ons in spite of the very norm in question, often it seems because so many folks are reading and available to comment readily.

        5. So, absent AAM’s appearance in threads to say when to move on or the like, designating a few people with this quite small but important role might be of use — again only if Dizzy’s suggestions prove insufficient.

        (I lurk a LOT and enjoy lengthy threads. I generally scroll past comment threads that aren’t of interest. But I do get tired of the numerous comments pointing out norm violators.)

    15. Anonymous in Texas*

      Could you tell Corporette about this rule? I’ve stopped looking at that site because 90% of comments aren’t related to the post!

  2. Nervous Accountant*

    Happy Friday all! :)

    I’m just curious and want to throw this out there–how did your office handle Stella?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I work in midtown Manhattan. We got an email midday Monday alerting us to work remotely on Tuesday, but prior to the official notification my manager told us those of us living outside of Manhattan to plan to work remotely regardless. (We only have two team members who work in Manhattan, and I suspect my manager would have okayed them to work remotely in the end, as well.)

      1. TotesMaGoats*

        I’m in Baltimore and work at a university downtown. We had a closure and delay the next day. We got more ice than anything else. I think they made a good call. However, some of my colleagues had to come in as we were in the middle of an accreditation site visit. The show must go on.

        1. Andy*

          UMD College Park here…no delay on Wednesday which was sucky since the ice was atrocious, but I think Baltimore (for those not familiar it’s SUPER close but tends to have different weather) got a lot more icey stuff.
          Good luck with your accreditation!

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            Oh, we got so much ice (Hunt Valley here). it was wretched. Hilariously, my back-roads commute was smooth as silk Wednesday morning, but the wind all day blew the road full of snow again and it turned into washboarded ice (didn’t even know ice could do that….).

          2. Paige Turner*

            Hey, neighbor! I work near UMd and we had a three-hour delay at the office, but I worked from home all day. So much better than when I worked for Starbucks and had to drag myself in during Snowmageddeon while everyone else in the neighborhood had a snow day and was clamoring to get in (still traumatized by that storm!).

          3. MissMaple*

            So many fellow Marylanders, I had no idea :) I’m in Greenbelt and our site was closed, but we were all expected to telework our normal hours.

            1. Emi.*

              I’m in Greenbelt and we closed too! If you were already scheduled to telework you still had to, but otherwise you just got excused leave.

          4. LPBB*

            I work down the street from UMD College Park, but I live just north of Baltimore (White Marsh-ish area) and can attest that we got a ton of icy stuff. I ended up working from home on Wednesday because our driveway was so treacherously icy that I couldn’t safely clean the ice off of my car.

        2. EP*

          Frederick, MD here – we were closed Tuesday and delayed Wednesday and yesterday which makes today even more difficult to sit through than a regular Friday.
          (We follow the school offices- if they are delayed we’re delayed – if they’re closed we’re closed etc.)

        3. Anon for saying where I work/live*

          UMBC here. Campus was closed on Tuesday. No delay Wednesday morning. My drive in Wednesday morning from Howard County was totally fine. But I can flex my schedule to some extent depending on the day, so I intentionally rolled in around 9:30. It may have been worse earlier?

    2. Rebecca*

      Central PA here: my office closed for the day, and I’m non-exempt, but was given the choice of taking the day without pay, using a vacation day, or using 1/2 vacation day and then making up 4 hours. Since we knew on Monday we’d be closed, some of my coworkers stayed an extra hour and then have worked an extra hour on Wed, Thu, and Fri.

      1. HisGirlFriday*

        Also Central PA. Our governor announced on Monday that people who didn’t HAVE TO travel for work (i.e., anyone who’s not first responders, emergency personnel, or essential personnel) should stay home. My boss informed us that even if the governor officially closed the roads, thereby making travel on them if you’re not essential illegal, we should wait to hear from her Tuesday morning if we were closed.

        We all rolled our eyes and informed her none of us were coming in; either the office would be closed or we’d all burn PTO to be off.

        She finally closed the office at 6.10 a.m. on Tuesday.

        1. MsChanandlerBong*

          My husband’s former employer used to get around the travel bans by giving him a letter saying he “works in the medical profession.” He worked in a warehouse, but it was in the pharmacy industry, so they got away with it. My poor husband would have to get up at 3:00 a.m. to clean off the car and leave enough time to get to work safely. We lived in Northeastern PA then, so we got hit with a lot of storms.

        2. Oscar Madisoy*

          ” My boss informed us that even if the governor officially closed the roads, thereby making travel on them if you’re not essential illegal, we should wait to hear from her Tuesday morning if we were closed.”

          So, if the boss had gone the other way and said employees were required to report, and you got in trouble for illegal travel, would he have done everything he could to square things out with the law and make you whole?

      2. Buffy*

        Central PA here too! The university I work for (big guesses as to which) did a very rare shut-down! I found myself very excited for the snow day, then I realized it was nostalgia from my childhood when I didn’t have to shovel and keep up on work e-mails. :)

    3. Merida May*

      Happy Friday! I work for a state agency but our Governor announced that all non-essential employees were able to take the day without charging against accruals, so I had plenty of time to figure out where I was going to put all the snow that kept pouring into my driveway.

    4. CDM*

      Our office closed, so we got a paid day off. I was shocked. First time since I’ve been here – four years.

      We have had two other significant snowfall/ice days where management directed everyone to work from home, (and I had to take a sick day because the ice took out our power and internet) but normally they open the office and expect the peons to be there, no matter what. The mangers work from home when the roads are bad, but the rest of us are frowned on for doing that, even though we all have the ability to do so with minimal disruptions.

      1. Anna*

        “Your safety is less of a concern than the safety of the people we pay more.”

        How aggravating. Hopefully the paid day off is a sign of changing times.

    5. Emilia Bedelia*

      I’m in NJ- the building was closed on Tuesday, with special hours/leniency for shift workers on Monday and Wednesday. Most of the office staff worked from home on Tuesday, some Wednesday also.

    6. Pearl*

      I’m in Boston. My office only has 3 people, so we just decided together that none of us wanted to risk getting stuck here. We told people we were working from home. The next day it turned out to not be that bad, so we came in.

    7. Kiki*

      I work at a school in MA. The kids and teachers were already gone for spring break, but the office staff is still here. On Monday afternoon we were told not to come in Tuesday, so I got a paid day off (I’m non-exempt but they treat snow days here like other school holidays).

      1. Bend & Snap*

        I didn’t realize there were MA schools that had spring break. I thought it was all Feb and April vacation.

        1. Turkletina*

          I went to a private school in MA that had a March spring break. I think only the public schools schedule their vacations around already-existing holidays.

      2. Nallomy*

        I also work at an MA school (public). We had two days off – Tuesday and Wednesday – because the city felt that an extra day was needed to get everything cleaned up (sidewalks, bus stops, etc.) before we could reopen. Most of the adjacent, more suburban communities went back on Wednesday, though. My husband has an office job in the city, and his office closed on Tuesday. He’s salaried/exempt, and they didn’t require him to use PTO.

    8. Reine de la neige*

      I’m in Montreal – we got somewhere around 15-18 inches of snow.
      A little more than half the office made it in, the rest worked from home or used PTO.
      Such a pain!!

    9. Nervous Accountant*

      Midtown Manhattan too…Day before the storm, we got an email saying that since MTA is partially shut down we can work from home. We had a major deadline on Wednesday so they were really pushing us to come in if it was safe.

      The next day, a few of us were having issues getting access to get the remote login. I didn’t get access until 1 PM, but I was still working (able to access other things through Chrome). My boss sent us a very strongly worded email midday saying that we should do our best to come in since the forecast was down to 4-6″ instead of the 2 feet. About 10 (out of 70 or so) showed up bc they lived nearby and/or their subway lines were running. The rest of us did our best to work from home.

      The next day I found out a lot of ppl got a lot of shit for not coming in despite waiting for 1-2+ HOURS for reliable transit. Absolutely ridiculous.

      1. Audiophile*

        That’s horrible.

        They shut down all elevated track service on Tuesday right? And Metro North stopped running trains at noon. Nothing was really moving until around 6pm and that was with significant delays.

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          Yep! All above ground subway was out, and I’m in an area with only above ground subway. To get to the below-ground subway, my husband would have to drive for about an hour (usually 20 minutes, but with this weather, easily would have been 1 hour) to that station. Not happening.

          The metro North w as supposed to be running in the AM, but I waited 20 minutes for a train that was late. My manager called and told me to just go home and work from home. Thankfully our boss didn’t say anything to me.

          1. Audiophile*

            The closest Metro North station to me is up a large, long hill. I knew I likely wouldn’t get up it and certainly wouldn’t do well trying to go down it. There weren’t a lot of AM trains running Tuesday and ridership was apparently very low, so they stopped early.

            Wednesday, Metro North was super delayed. I looked at my local station and White Plains and it was not looking great. I emailed my boss and explained I wouldn’t be in. We had a conference call, which I was on, so I technically worked from home.

      2. Observer*

        Your boss was being an idiot. The mayor did keep the state of emergency in place for a reason. The wind was atrocious.

        We were closed. There was some talk about possibly opening in the afternoon, but even with the reduction in snow forecast, the state of emergency and lack of surface public transportation (no underground subways near us.) kept us closed.

        Thank goodness, my boss is VERY safety conscious.

    10. The Cosmic Avenger*

      DC area: my employer (Federal contractor) has an inclement weather policy that parallels the OPM (Fed) policy, but when the government is closed we are expected to work from home or take leave, as we can’t bill the government for a “snow day”.

      I was going to work from home that day before I heard about the storm, so I just stuck to my planned schedule.

    11. Jesmlet*

      Westchester NY here, we closed all our offices in NJ, CT and NY and everyone worked from home that day. The following day if people still couldn’t make it into offices, salaried people took an unpaid day off and hourly could work from home.

    13. Audiophile*

      I work in Chelsea and midday, not long after Mayor de Blasio closed schools, our office closed.

      I was glad to know that early since I definitely would not have made it in on Tuesday.

    14. Lark*

      I work in the Capital District (NY). Office wasn’t allowed to officially close, so everyone got charged vacation days if they didn’t come in or left early Tuesday. 15 people actually showed up out of 80+ staff. I was one of them and left around noon, it took 2 hours to make a 15 minute drive to a hotel. I live in the hills and had 36″ of snow to clean up when I finally got home. The following day anyone who didn’t come in or came in late was docked for it, but I think only 5 or 6 people called in.

      1. New Girl*

        Wow! Also in the Capital District. My office closed on Tuesday. I couldn’t imagine driving in that snow!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          A bit more than one hour north of you guys. My boss told me to stay home. And she said only come in on Wednesday if I am absolutely sure it’s safe. By mid-morning on Wednesday it was fine. But Tuesday was kind of unreal.

    15. PB*

      I’m in central PA. We got a message on Monday evening that we’d close for the day, which is rare. My boss has been here 16 years, and says she can count on one hand the number of times we’ve closed for the whole day. We reopened on Wednesday. The roads were pretty rough still, so I worked from home until the plows came through.

    17. Liane*

      Not me, but a NY friend. He let us know Monday that his employer had decided to close Tuesday. The company has *never* closed for weather before, in 20 years in business. In fact, several years ago, the Governor ordered everyone to stay off the roads, but the higher-ups (in the local office) demanded all employees come in, and wrote people up if they didn’t. Naturally, the higher-ups giving the commands stayed home themselves. Those write-ups were countermanded by C-suite later on.
      Friend took Wednesday as a personal day because he strained his back a bit keeping up on shoveling.

    18. Allison*

      Before every storm, or potential storm, they send out e-mails encouraging people to take their laptops home and decide for themselves if they need to work from home the day of the storm. Stella was no exception.

      Now, sometimes my city anticipates a huge storm and it turns out to be practically nothing. Stella was only a blizzard during the work day. Morning commute was fine, evening commute was just wet and windy, but safe. Nevertheless, almost everyone on my team was out that day.

      When we’re supposed to get a storm, I still wake up at my usual time to look outside and check the weather report. If it’s bad out, or still expected to be bad, I’m staying home. If not, I’ll go in. I got up at 6:15, saw that the snow was about to start, went back to bed, got up at 8 to find the snow was coming later, happening during the day, and only getting 8 inches. I thought “great, now you tell me” but it was already 8 so I stayed home, feeling a little silly doing so, but when everyone dialed into the meeting that day I felt better. No one got a hard time for erring on the side of caution.

    19. Menacia*

      My company closed, I’ve noticed this trend more and more as they are really putting their money where there mouth is with regard to employee safety. Of course there are those who have to be on call due to the nature of the work we do (water utility), but it’s a rotating staff and they get a stipend as well as the necessary equipment to stay safe and warm even if they have to brave the elements should there be a water emergency.

    20. Nichole*

      Maryland here – we were open.

      There weren’t that many people here, but I personally don’t have PTO to burn and it’s really hard to do my job from home. (Especially since my partner’s work was closed, so they were home not working.) It wasn’t awful driving but it wasn’t fabulous either.

    21. The Other Dawn*

      Our company closed all offices (we’re a bank) since they’re all in the same country, which got slammed this time around. What’s awesome is that they called it the day before and didn’t wait until the morning of the storm. So, we all got to sleep in! (Of course, I was still on STD because of the surgery so it didn’t affect me, but I was happy for everyone nonetheless.)

    22. Xarcady*

      New Hampshire here. The company closed the office for Tuesday. Everyone who could was supposed to take their laptop home and forward their office phone to their home phone or cell phone, and work from home on Tuesday.

      So a whole bunch of people were able to work from home. For the few who have jobs that simply can’t be done from home, they had to take PTO, which made several people very unhappy.

      I was able to work at home until 2 pm, when the power went out. I live in the same city as the office and power must have gone out there, as well, because no one could connect to the network for hours. (Fortunately for me, power at home came back in 15 minutes.)

      Wednesday, the office was open as usual, but many people were either late arriving because of delayed school openings, or didn’t come in at all because of school closings. Or in some cases, didn’t come in and worked from home because they hadn’t been able to move all the snow off their driveways. We may not have received the 18-20″ that were predicted, but what did fall, at least a good solid foot of snow, was followed by freezing rain, and the snow was very heavy and difficult to move.

    24. Just curious*

      I read the subject line and thought Stella must be the new Fergus, or perhaps a new type of problem employee. I guess my new method of avoiding news coverage is working…

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        Heh, same. (Although I’m not sure it’s something to be proud of, exactly.) This is my version of the Bay Area Bubble: weather. Today was the first week this year it was hot enough to turn on the ceiling fans.

    25. Jessesgirl72*

      We got a foot of snow Sun night-Monday that wasn’t even Stella related. No one covered it because it wasn’t the NE or Pacific Coast. ;) Milwaukee hit a new all time record of most snowfall in a day. It was snowing something like 2+” an hour when my husband was trying to clear the driveway on Monday morning , so he decided to work from home. About half his department did the same. Schools let out 1-2 hours early. That was it.

  3. Manager or Leader?*

    Or both? What do folks here think the difference is between the two? Or is there a difference? Since I asked, I’ll start this party! IMO, management, a science, is about organizing things (i.e., money, time) efficiently, while leadership, an art, is about motivating people to excel, to perform at their highest levels.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      This is a good piece from the great Bob Sutton on this, arguing that true leaders also have to be good managers:
      https://hbr.org/2010/08/true-leaders-are-also-managers
      (Money quote: ““A leader needs to understand what it takes to do things right, and to make sure they actually get done.”)

      Also, this piece, which argues, “both leadership and management are crucial, and it doesn’t help those responsible for the work of others to romanticize one and devalue the other”:
      https://hbr.org/2011/12/im-a-leader-not-a-manager.html

      1. Christy*

        Related to this, Alison, what are your favorite books on management/leadership?

        Commentariat, do you have favorites as well?

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I used to really like Marshall Goldman’s “First Break All the Rules,” but it’s been years since I’ve read it. I remember it being really eye-opening for me though — especially the way he talks about looking at low performers as simply being “miscast” (as opposed to lazy or willfully obstinate or so forth).

          1. Marisol*

            I looked that one up on Amazon and the author is listed as Marcus Buckingham. Is that the same book?

        2. the gold digger*

          I really liked the book From Good to Great. The author identifies practices and behaviors that separate decent companies from really good ones.

          The main points I remember are
          1. Great CEOs don’t make it about themselves
          2. To have good employees, you have to hire good people. From the book:
          “I used to be in the Marines, and the Marines get a lot of credit for building people’s values. But that’s not the way it really works. The Marine Corps recruits people who share the corps’ values, then provides them
          with the training required to accomplish the organization’s mission.”

          1. Ann O.*

            So the corps’ values involve creeping on fellow co-workers and sharing illicitly obtained nude photos of them? (sorry, that’s unfair to the book, but the use of Marines as an example really does make me question how much authors really understand about what’s underneath the surface of these case study/example organizations)

        3. finman*

          It may sound off topic, but Pat Summitt’s book “Reach for the Summitt” is a good read on leadership, as well as Sacred Hoops by Phil Jackson. Not your typical corporate leadership books, but their thoughts, methodologies etc can be applied to the business world as well.

      2. Aurion*

        Yeah, a good manager is a good leader because they have the authority/organizational capability to reward and motivate. You might occasionally get a good leader without being a good manager (in the “I’m in the trenches with you/shielding you from the top” sort of way), but I find it’s far more likely for an individual to be good at both. It’s hard to motivate people to excel if you don’t have the clout/organization/executive ability to reward them for it.

        (I may be slightly embittered by my Facebook feed, which is full of MLMs–sorry, ENTREPRENEURS and LEADERS NOT MANAGERS who are SUPPORTING SMALL BUSINESSES instead of lining a rich CEO’s pocket, or something.)

        (I’ll stop the caps lock abuse now.)

      3. Lablizard*

        Honestly, I think true leaders need to hire good managers, not be them. Vision and the day to day are rarely found in the same person

    3. Anyone can be a leader*

      The company I was hired into post-grad changed the titles away from management development programs to leadership development programs (except the Operations group who didn’t want to be labeled OLDP) because the idea was grooming individuals to be a leader at all levels whether or not they had a team underneath them or not. Which is one place I believe the money article is misplaced. You can be a leader for people at your same level in entry level jobs without having a person underneath you. Leadership is about being able to understand, articulate and motivate people to attain goals and objectives whether or not the people you are trying to lead work for you or someone else (great project managers are leaders without ever having a staff underneath them).

    4. Whats In A Name*

      I don’t think a leader needs to be in a management/supervisory role at all. To me a leader is someone who makes people want to do their best work or be their best self, all the time.

      A manger can do those things in addition to managing processes, but to me a good manager has 2 skills:
      1) the ability to manage workplace dynamics, personalities and actual things – like making sure there is a process for keeping the supply closet
      2) the ability to lead as defined above.

  4. At Wits End*

    I want to thank everyone who saw and responded to my post last week (linked in my name). For TL;DR, I posted on my way home from work, pulling my car over because of a panic attack/mess of tears brought on by my toxic workplace forcing a workload of three to four employees onto me, and then getting mad when I can’t keep up with all the work, was making it not safe for me to drive.

    This week continued much the same way. My supervisor lay the blame of particular issue entirely at my feet, even though it was his responsibility. When I tried to push back, he said that he knew it wasn’t my fault but he didn’t want to deal with the fallout so he was making it my responsibility now. What can you do when your higher ups tell you right to your face that they don’t care about you and are using you as a scapegoat? Additionally more work was dropped on me by another supervisor, who already gave me a new project last week that she knows I haven’t finished yet, and just said ‘There’s no one else to do it’ which is definitely not true, I’m just the only one who is held accountable for their workload and is expected to get things done.

    So I’m definitely done with this place. I thought I could wait until another job offered me a spot but I spent every day this last week just trying to hold it together at work only to be so exhausted and depressed that I’m a sobbing mess when I get home. I only got one application out all week because I couldn’t focus after the work day. I do have to wait for an upcoming medical procedure that I need insurance that’s coming up in a couple of weeks but the day I get back from the procedure, my resignation letter will be in my boss’s hand.

    It’s not ideal to leave without a new job to go to but I have to do it. I need to take some time to improve my physical and mental health that has taken a real beating recently, and I can’t do it while still at my Toxic Job. A friend equated it to trying to be a functioning person while still in an abusive relationship and they’re not wrong. I am lucky enough that I do have a safety net; I have savings enough to last me about a year, and I have friends and family who have offered help. I’m fully prepared to temp, do part time work, or return to retail to make ends meet. I didn’t want it to come to this but I need to do it. I need to take the decision in my own own hands and walk away from this toxic workplace.

    I’ve had many people in my life express real worry for me recently, and advise that sometimes you need to take a step back to progress forward once again. So this will be my backwards step in order to move on. Thank you everyone for the comments last week; you guys really helped me to see a little clearer.

    1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      I wish you lots of luck! I left my last job with nothing lined up because of the same reasons and it worked out really well for me. I don’t think it’s a step backwards at all and in the end you will hopefully end up many steps ahead of where you are now. Let us know how it goes!

    2. rubyrose*

      I am so sorry this is happening to you. I am also glad you have a safety net, both financial and friends.

      Until you are out of there – just keep as detached as you can.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I’m sorry that you have to wait long enough for the medical procedure but I hope you can hang in there until then and have friends and family who can provide you support in other ways, even if they cannot help you at work.

      I believe once you step away from Toxic Job your health will improve in so many ways, and that’ll be great too (I hope) for you after your medical procedure, whether it is “minor and normal” or “big”, for you to have good recovery time.

      Best of luck!

    4. Circles*

      Here’s to hoping your health will improve and you get a great new job as soon as you get better!

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Good luck.

      You may want to consider signing up with a temp agency while you’re job searching. It might help keep you from going through your entire savings.

    6. Anon Accountant*

      Once you leave it will improve greatly. Until then good wishes and thoughts sent your way.

    7. ggf*

      So sorry you’re going through this.

      While you’re waiting for your medical procedure, you might want to look into constructive dismissal requirements for unemployment for your state, and start gathering whatever evidence you can to back up such a claim.

    8. Kristine*

      I’m rooting for you! In the past I had to do the same thing for the same reason and I regret nothing. Ultimately I landed in a better place and my overall quality of life improved dramatically. Good luck during your last few weeks and keep looking forward to the morning when you wake up and realize you never have to go back.

    9. Falling Diphthong*

      I just posted in the Advice to Young Persons thread about the importance of not sticking with a job as you become more and more bitter, because the feeling of helplessness and bitterness doesn’t help with finding a new one. (To be clear, bitterness can be a perfectly justified emotion. And a sign that you should run, RUN from whatever the circumstances are.)

      Quitting a toxic place without a new job lined up isn’t ideal, but it can be far better than sinking lower and lower as you become convinced that you can’t leave, and radiate that stubborn conviction at any cracked windows of escape.

      1. RVA Cat*

        Also, try to block out their unrealistic expectations and only do what you can do reasonably and well. Better to have the most important project finished than everything incomplete. It’s not on you to fix their broken business, because if you working yourself into a breakdown is the only thing keeping them afloat, they deserve to go under.

        1. KarenD*

          This oh this.

          At Wit’s End, you know when your physical body will be leaving the building. But take your emotional self out of there right now! Build a wall between you and the toxic expectations, do what you can in the time you have left (forty hours a week and no more) and redirect that emotional and mental energy that would have been burned up in the anguish they’re causing you. ((hugs)) It can be so much better!

          1. A. Non*

            The best thing I did while I was working at OldJob was that when I got home, I [i]immediately[/i] changed out of my uniform, washed my hands, and said to myself, the work day is over, it’s gone, the end. It’s kind of new-agey sounding and odd, but it helps to put that ending on the work day. If you can block work numbers once you leave the building, do that, too.

    10. AMG*

      Sending you love and calming vibes! You will get through this and it will be only a memory soon. Each day that passes is one day closer to never having to go back there again.

    11. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I am so so sorry this is happening to you. It’s not right, it’s not fair, and it’s not ok. I’m sending you supportive ~vibes~. Something that happened when I left toxic job was knowing I was going to quit. I’m hoping you can focus on that and that it will be the light at the end of this very dark tunnel.

      The other thing that helped me was pretending I was walking through work with an invisible forcefield around me. Whenever my bosses or coworkers did something awful (which of course was several times a day), I started imagining them like monkeys throwing poop around, and if they threw that poop at me, it would hit the forcefield and just slide off/away. Or I would imagine them as children throwing tantrums, and I would then kind of take a step back and watch it with amusement instead of pain.

      Those tactics didn’t make me want to stay longer, but they made it a little easier to cope in the moment and until my notice period ended. Coping helped me shift my energy from depressed/despondent/hopeless to feeling like I had a little more control. And having a little more control made me feel capable of job hunting, etc., which might be helpful since you know you have to be there a while longer. That said, it took me over 3 months after quitting to begin to feel like I could get to emotional equilibrium again, so I understand that you might not be in a place where these tactics are helpful. Regardless, I’m wishing you all the best at what sounds like a truly awful time/place.

      1. KarenD*

        This too. I just kept picturing a Teflon shield around me that all the abusive behavior just slid off. It got to the point where I was actually secretly (sometimes not so secretly) laughing at how cartoonishly villianish old boss and grandboss were.

        And I was definitely giddy for a few months after Great New Boss appeared on the scene. I kept fighting back this urge to hug him or say random things like “Do you know how awesome you are?”

      2. zora*

        Yes!! The invisible shield!

        And I used a lot of “one step at a time” to get through the bad times, too. So, when I had a pile of way too much stuff to do, I would literally focus on getting through the next 5 minutes. Or just picking one thing, doing that. Then one more thing. And very strictly structuring my day with breaks every 2 hours, and then walking out the door at 5pm.

        That rigid 5 minutes at a time along with visualizing the forcefield around me helped me make it through the days until I could get out of there. Best of luck, I hope you end up somewhere better soon!

    12. VivaL*

      I’m so sorry you are dealing with this. No job is worth your mental health.

      I’m sure you’ve thought of all this, but I wanted to ask – will you need any follow up care at all (that would require insurance)? If so, would it be possible to take some time off after (disability or something?) even if you dont technically need it, you can use the time to job search (they shouldnt contact you if on disability/fmla). Would your doctor write a note to that effect?

    13. Is it Friday Yet?*

      I just wanted to offer you some words of encouragement. I once found myself in the same situation that you are in and decided to leave my toxic work environment that day. I did not even give two weeks notice. Taking control of my own health and happiness was one of the best decisions that I ever made. It will be scary, and at times it can feel like you’re free falling, but it can only get better.

    14. burnt toast*

      OMG I feel like this is me!
      Document stuff (extra hours worked, abuse, etc) so you can apply for unemployment because you quit for good cause;
      (In general, having good cause for resigning means there are unsolvable problems with the work, which leave an employee with no other options beyond quitting. Additionally, it needs to be documented that the employer was made aware of the situation, and made no effort to rectify it. Some examples of good cause are:
      unsafe work conditions
      lack of payment
      change in job duties
      discrimination
      harassment
      Some types of family emergencies are also considered good cause. See more good cause reasons for quitting a job that will typically result in unemployment benefits being granted.)

      Right now I am so burnt out that I can’t manage to get applications out either.
      Can’t afford to quit as I was unemployed for a year and that ate through all my savings; this job pays barely enough for the basics so I haven’t been able to do any savings and am racking up the bills…

      I feel for you and yeah, been there, done that, got a t-shirt…
      It sounds like stepping away is your best choice.

      Good luck

    15. Office Plant*

      I also left a toxic job with nothing lined up. Financially, it took a toll. But my health and state of mind greatly improved. The financial impact was, to a large extent, due to decisions I made after leaving – holding out for a job I’d be happier with. I get that not everyone is in a position to take that kind of risk, but for me, it was a good decision.

    16. AnonEMoose*

      I think that one of the most toxic and damaging things about situations like this is the continuing feeling that there must be something you can do to change/improve the situation. If you could just explain it better, or if they’d just really listen…maybe things would get better.

      If nothing else, you now have confirmation that this is not the case – it’s not you, it’s them. You tried pushing back, and were told that they already know…and IT DOESN’T MATTER TO THEM. So it’s not that they don’t realize what they’re doing to you; they know, they just don’t care. I’m emphasizing that not to make you feel bad, and I truly hope it doesn’t.

      But, sometimes, knowing that it has nothing to do with you as a person, that it’s all choices they are making, can be freeing. If there’s nothing you can do that will improve the situation, then you know that you need to care for yourself. I’m so, so glad for you that you’ve made the decision to get out, because that sounds like the only real solution.

      If you can really convince yourself of that, that it’s NOT YOU, and truly believe it, it might help you through these last few weeks. Having suffered through some truly awful temp jobs, it’s a lot easier if you know “I only have to deal with this for X more weeks/days/hours.”

      I hope your medical procedure goes well, and that you find a measure of peace, knowing that there is an end date for this.

      It might be a good idea to do some temping, if you can, while you’re looking. Only because it will expose you to different, hopefully more functional, work norms, and remind you that what you have been through is not normal and not acceptable. Plus, temping can be great for your network. I have my current job because I started at the company as a temp; they liked me, I liked them, and over a decade later, the rest is history. I hope you find a much better, healthier job for you, very soon!

    17. Elizabeth West*

      Hang in there. I think knowing there is an end in sight will help a lot. Do the best you can during this time and let the rest roll away–it’s not you, it’s them. They suck. This is not a failure on your part but on theirs. Because they failed at not sucking.

      Good vibes!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    18. Agile Phalanges*

      So sorry you’re dealing with this, and glad you have a plan to get out, even without a job lined up.

      Do check with someone who can help you determine your benefits, though–either HR if you can ask discreetly enough, or call your insurance company directly. Often, once the premium is paid, you’re covered through the end of that month. So depending when your procedure is, you may be able to quit now. Or if you (or family) can cover the COBRA premium (you don’t have to pay it month after month, just the month(s) you’re going to need the coverage), then you can quit right now.

      Good luck!

    19. Rookie Manager*

      I just wanted to encourage you that you’require doing the right thing. Three months ago I was in a job that made me cry almost daily because my boss was so awful. My partner and I had talked about me quitting but one day it got particularly bad and I resigned.

      I was out of work for a couple of months, about half the time recovering my physical and mental health, and the other half job hunting. Now I’m in a new job where I am valued, don’t cry, have a better title and an almost 50% pay rise.

      I never could have got this new job while still in the old one as, like you say, the effort of hanging on stopped me applying to enough vacancies.

      Good luck and look after yourself.

    20. OhBehave*

      So glad you are getting out of that toxic place.

      I remember being in school and making links before a break. We would cut a link off and that meant we were that much closer to vacation. Do this! Or something else tangible to count down the days. It will give you a mental burst to see how close you are coming to freedom. It may just help you get through the days. It’s silly, I know, but fun. You just might notice a lightness to your step if you do something like this.

      Wishing you all the best. I look forward to hearing an update on how they responded.

    21. Not So NewReader*

      Knowing that the end is in sight will hopefully offer a tiny, tiny bit of relief for you right now.

      I have used the shield (bullet proof) idea myself and found it very useful.

      In quiet moment maybe you can conjure up images of Bad Boss scrambling for his next scapegoat and the look on his face when scapegoat number 2 quits on him also.

      You know, it’s one thing when others treat us badly but the larger deal is rescuing our own selves from a bad spot. I hope you find comfort in the realization that YOU are taking care of YOU.

      I hope your surgery goes outstandingly well. And I hope when you are ready you find a new and great job quickly.

    22. Belle di Vedremo*

      Thanks for checking back in, and for letting us know that you’re prioritizing you.

      I’d start taking things home, bit by bit. Leave the visible things that are easy to grab on the way out (eg, coffee mug, postcards/calendar type things from a bulletin board) but take the rest home. Make a list of contacts you’d like to to keep and their relevant information, so you have time to do that without being in a last minute rush. To me, doing these things made the coming resignation real. And it means that if they react to your resignation by telling you to leave that you’ll be ready.

      And, your boss’ desire to make everything your responsibility doesn’t make it so.

      COBRA is generally expensive, but it might be cheaper than paying for additional medical procedures on your own. I was glad to pay just 10% of what a procedure would’ve cost without it.

      Sometimes when people tell us that we might need to take a step backwards in order to move forward again, what they really mean is that we’ve gone so far into the weeds that we’ve gone astray and gotten tangled up, and that stepping “backwards” actually returns us to the forward path.

      Take care of yourself, and please keep us posted.

    23. Freya UK*

      Late to the party but, good luck to you. I left my last job (which had turned from BestJob to ToxicJob after a management change…) and decided to take some time out – best decision ever.

      I am now in another job that just really isn’t for me, but I may have a new job by the end of this week, and even if I don’t I am 99% sure I will hand my notice in anyway- I’ve already learned the hard way that health is always more important, and firmly believe that if you trust your gut, what you need will find its way to you.

  5. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    I have intermittent FML and am an exempt employee. My company does not pay for time off, forces us to use all of our PTO up, then we have to go unpaid. This is the first company I’ve worked for that doesn’t pay exempt employees for intermittent FML. What are other peoples’ experience?

    1. Temperance*

      My company does disability/FMLA by seniority. So I was eligible for a few months at full pay and about 6 more at half-pay when I went out last year. Someone just starting would only be eligible for a week. I think this covers mat leave as well.

    2. Anonymous Poster*

      Disclaimer: I haven’t used FML, intermittent or otherwise.

      This has been the policy at the places I’ve worked. The person was required to first burn through all PTO that was accumulated, and then after that could use FML which was unpaid. I don’t know about intermittent FML specifically though, but the blanket policy was PTO must be used before FML could be used, and all FML, regardless of the circumstances, was unpaid.

      Hope that helps and good luck.

      2. Jadelyn*

        Well…PTO is separate from FMLA. It’s not so much that PTO must be used *before* FMLA time, as that the actual FMLA law allows companies to require employees to use PTO *during* their FMLA leave, until the employee runs out of PTO. So if you took three weeks of leave, but you had one week of PTO available, all three weeks were still FMLA leave and subject to those protections; it’s just that the first week was *also* PTO.

        1. Jessesgirl72*

          That depends. My husband very specifically has to use his PTO first, and then goes on FMLA. It’s not concurrent and it’s spelled out very specifically on the HR website, with links to the relevant laws on the state and federal websites. He is getting ready to apply, so we got had reason to check recently.

    3. Murphy*

      That’s how ours works too. Unpaid unless you use your own leave. We have to use all of our sick leave before we go unpaid, but we don’t have to use all of our vacation leave. (We do have to use all of our vacation leave before applying for shared leave, which makes sense.)

    4. Ann O'Nemity*

      My experience is the opposite. All companies I’ve been at require employees to use all their PTO then go unpaid for FML. Most companies have offered a fully or partially paid short-term disability plan as well.

    5. Circles*

      I currently work for a company that does the same as yours. I am not exempt but my title/duties give me access to this type of info for record keeping purposes. We had a worker who was exempt and was using intermittent FMLA. After she used all her PTO, they told her that getting paid would depend on how many hours per week she was out/off. I am not an HR person and I know the basics about FMLA, so I don’t know if the way they handled it was legal or not, but she did not push back on it. They basically said that although they had sympathy for her situation they would not pay her to be off.

    6. fposte*

      In my experience it’s more common for employers to require FMLA to be taken concurrently with PTO, whether intermittent or not, and employees get coverage through STD or go unpaid for FMLA days taken that exceed PTO.

      1. Joa*

        This has been my experience as well. FMLA really has nothing to do with pay; it simply gives the right to be away from your job for personal and family-related medical reasons and suffer no negative consequences as a result. Whether or not you receive pay for that time has nothing to do with the law and everything to do with your employer.

        I’ve worked in local government settings and my experience has been that if you have PTO available, that was your way of getting paid during FMLA leave. If you did not have banked PTO, you would be unpaid.

      2. Taylor Swift*

        This has been the case at the places I’ve worked. FMLA isn’t there to provide paid leave; it’s there to protect your job.

    7. finman*

      When I first read this comment I thought they were having intermittent “f$@# my life” syndrome with issues at work.

      3. Mallory Janis Ian*

        Ha, that’s what I thought, too. I thought, “I’m right there with you, sister! Intermittent f$@# my life.”

    8. Gracie*

      My workplace used to require you to use your pto and then it was unpaid but recently we got to make the choice and signed a paper on whether we wanted pto to be used or save it and just be unpaid

    9. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      75% of my workplaces have required exhausting PTO/sick leave before taking FMLA leave, or they required that you take PTO and FMLA leave concurrently. 25% have offered paid leave for a certain amount of time based on seniority, but those organizations also required that you first exhaust your PTO.

      1. Whats In A Name*

        Yes, at most places I have worked its been similar for intermittent or continuous FML.

        The most generous I had at an employers was you only had to exhaust 5 days of leave regardless of seniority and then could choose to use PTO/ go unpaid or accept partial paid if you were there less than 5 years. FML was unpaid year 1, 25% of salary in year 2, 50% of salary in year 3, 75% in year 4-5. After 5 years you got 100% paid but only after you used your first 5 days of PTO leave.

    10. Formica Dinette*

      Best FMLA policy I’ve encountered in my career: We accrued a separate leave bank for this. Over the course of a year, we accrued the equivalent of three months’ workdays. In order to use the FML bank, we first had to use five days of PTO. However, for repeated FML related to a single issue, we only had to use those five days of PTO the first time.

      FML has been unpaid every place else I’ve worked. I am also exempt.

      1. Whats In A Name*

        Yes – forgot to mention that above. If for same instance you only had to use the 5 days one time…so even if FML was recurring for years you only had the 5-day stipulation once.

    11. nhbillups*

      I’m sorry if I’ve misunderstood something, but if the employees taking the FMLA leave are exempt, then they can’t be “unpaid” for intermittent leave, unless those employees are missing whole weeks of work at a time, right? Because if they’re missing a day or two or three a week, or even just working half days or something, they’re still working that week, and I thought exempt employees had to be paid the same every week in which they did *any* work. Am I wrong?

      1. fposte*

        It’s one of the few exceptions–“an employer is not required to pay an exempt employee the full salary for weeks in which he or she takes unpaid leave under the Federal Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA). The employer may pay a proportionate part of the full salary for time actually worked.”

    12. Jessesgirl72*

      My husband has to use all his PTO and then takes it unpaid- which is what the law spells out companies can do.

      I actually used it once for myself, and I didn’t have to use my PTO first, but didn’t get paid.

  6. Tilly W*

    Tl, dr: toxic team lead promoted to my manager, need coping skills

    Our team lead, Sansa, was promoted to my direct manager this week and I’m feeling really anxious about it. Sansa tends to play favorites, is currently only speaking to half our dept., and following each meeting she grabs my colleague (also one of her new direct reports) to gossip and talk bad about others in the meeting, sometimes in a conference room and sometime just in the corner of our department. For context, our industry is fairly boring and nothing in our meetings is worthy of gossip. She openly badmouths (and I mean in the middle of our cubicles) everyone but especially an older woman who will be reporting to her now, which really concerns me. I’m pretty neutral on her radar and hope to stay that way but from my observation, the slightest offense gets you the indefinite silent treatment. It’s like our department has become a super catty, high school environment because of one person.

    While I do my best to keep my head down and work to avoid getting involved more than necessary, my usually positive nature is turning a little sour. Sansa has made comments in the past about forcing people out so I will do my best for the sake of my job to play the game but ugh, I’m too old for this stuff – and I’m younger than Sansa by 15 years.I even made a countdown yesterday until the end of Dec., when I can start looking for a different job- how many working days I had to actually be in the office sans holidays and pto (187!). I don’t have a great job history (commodities and layoffs) and have only been here 8 months.

    Do I allude to any of these concerns/dysfunction in my one-on-one next week with my now former boss/grandboss? She’s the type of director that they put people under because she has been with the company for so long but could care less about your development etc, just as long as you don’t burden her, very socially unaware (hence being clueless that Sansa has alienated half our team in the eight months I’ve been here). I’m viewed as a good worker, no drama, so I think she would view this as genuine feedback but I also don’t want a bullseye on my back. Any fellow AAMs that have gone through a similar situation have any coping mechanisms? (I’m planning on regularly getting to the gym at lunch and downloading some good, mellow podcasts.)

    2. Circles*

      I have no advice to offer but I wonder how effective a manager she can be if she is not currently speaking to half her team?? How does she communicate with them??

    3. Office Plant*

      I feel for you. I haven’t been in the exact same situation, but I have dealt with similarly difficult people at work.

      If it were me, I would consider leaving. Yes, your resume will suffer, but that’s only one part of the bigger picture. You also have to look out for your health and sanity.

      Not to undermine your choice to stay, which I’m sure you had good reasons to make, but for the sake of considering all the options . . . Are there other things you could do to support yourself? To improve your resume? Like freelancing, volunteering, projects outside of work, taking a leadership role in a professional organization, starting a professionally related blog, etc? Sometimes those kinds of things can compensate for having a weaknesses in your resume. And you might make friends in your field to whom you can confide a bit.

      But I’d be careful about talking about the situation outside of work. I wouldn’t bring it up with future prospective employers except maybe in very general terms. It isn’t fair or right, but talking about those kinds of things tends to come across as gossipping, back stabbing, or inability to handle challenging social situations. You want to be the person who takes the high road and stays above all of that. And the person who can stay positive in any kind of environment.

      Sounds like you have some good strategies in place already. 187 days, and it’s only for 40 hours each week (or however long it is). Keep going and it will be over before you know it.

    4. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      I think avoiding the bulls-eye would be good, but is there an HR you can talk to? Because if you make a report to your former boss and your new boss runs you out, that’s retaliation. And Sansa has already stated she plans to run people out. That seems like the exact type of thing HRs were created for.

    5. Marisol*

      How would you get a bull’s eye on your back? I would assume the only way for that to happen is if grandboss tattles on you. Do you trust grandboss? She’s apathetic, but that doesn’t mean she’s a snitch, or that she is completely clueless about the implications of attributing the feedback to you. Since part of the feedback is that the new manager is a gossip, it makes sense in that context to specifically tell grandboss that you need your comments to be anonymous. I’m sure you’re not the only one who’s noticed this, so anonymity should be feasible.

      Hope that paragraph makes sense–I don’t have it in me to edit today.

      I think the answer to whether or not you should tell your grandboss depends on what your relationship with her is like. Often people have a sense about whether or not it is safe to confide in someone. What does your “spidey sense” say about her?

      1. Tilly W*

        Apathetic is a great description of grandboss. I think she’s just thrilled she has less people to be directly responsible for in her org chart. She may not have been the best boss but I knew her hands-off style before taking the job and it didn’t seem too bad compared to a micromanaging boss. I can’t get a feel on how much I would trust her with this info. It’s also hard because while the entire team is aware of Sansa’s actions (except grandboss), none of her “offenses” are concrete or in writing. Gossiping in a conference room could be defended as a “discussion,” leaving people out of meetings will be “protecting their bandwidth,” etc. And while Sansa is only speaking to five of the 12 people on our team, she really knows how to work the upper management and a lot of higher ups who work in a different state. Without anything in writing, it just seems like a petty complaints but I am truly worried about my older coworker getting bullied because she has made terrible comments about her to me and purposely piles work on her. I am on the fence about talking to grandboss, I think in her mind she thinks Sansa is great and inclusive because Sansa really plays her card right. We have a huge HR department but we are such a big company, I could see talking to them backfiring according to other people’s experiences. To A Non. below, oddly the Ethics hotline is also driven by our department and we sadly have access to the log (which is a whole other topic of inappropriate).

        1. INFJ*

          If grandboss is thrilled to not have as many people under her, that means she doesn’t want to deal with your boss. Even though you and I know that your boss’s behavior is having a huge impact on the team (not to mention your sanity!), I don’t envision grandboss seeing this as a big enough deal to want to do something about it.

          I’ve worked in places that had gossipy/negative managers before, and upper management does NOT care as long as there are still results in terms of productivity.

          As for coping mechanisms:
          Keep doing a good job and don’t tell anybody how you feel about your boss. Continue to stay out of the drama as much as possible. Don’t give the boss a reason/any ammunition to use against you.

          If the older coworker who gets badmouthed does get mistreated by your boss, you can encourage that person to be the one to go to HR/grandboss. They might be more receptive to doing something about your boss if there’s a tangible event that occurred.

          I know it can be exhausting to “play the game” but sometimes it’s necessary for survival.

          1. Marisol*

            This is an interesting take. If grandboss does nothing though, then it seems to me there is no risk in telling her either, do you think that’s a fair assessment? The OP is afraid of backlash.

        2. Marisol*

          It sounds to me like you have more to lose by not speaking up than by speaking up. This seems like the beginning of a problem that could get out of hand if not stopped. And I don’t think your complaints are petty; gossip cannot be defended as a meeting–I mean, you could try to defend it that way, but it would simply be a lie, not a legitimate defense–and if you have actually heard Sansa say terrible things about your coworker, that is something concrete which should be addressed, as opposed to some sneaking suspicion for which you had no proof. Sometimes ambiguous things should remain unaddressed, but what you are witnessing does not sound ambiguous to me. It may not be in writing, or documented, but if you have actually witnessed specific bad behavior, then I’d call that concrete, and actionable.

          And I’m not sure what the backfire would do to you, since what you are saying would be the truth. Worst case scenario, Sansa calls you out, and you say, “yes, indeed, I reported those behaviors, because your actions were inappropriate and that’s what the situation called for.” Not that it would be ideal, but you’d at least have truth on your side. You’re not pulling any shady manoeuvres; in theory there would be no cause for discipline. I guess you’d get on Sansa’s bad side but if she’s that awful, that happen eventually anyway.

          Bottom line, I lean towards telling your old boss. It sounds like you have no specific reason not to trust her, whereas you do have good reason to distrust Sansa, so the greater risk lies with keeping yourself allied with her.

          But this would also be a great question for Allison.

    6. A. Non*

      I suppose it’s my Machiavellian nature showing here, but I’d check your company for an anonymous reporting line and then report that you’ve heard she’s planning on running people out. Also, document yourself, CYA, and know that you’re right, you are too old for this, but some people never get over the “high” of being queen bee.

    7. Tilly W*

      I should also mention, only four of us got moved under Sansa. So while she isn’t talking to most of the team, it’s only directly affecting four of us: her favorite mean girl gossip partner, fresh out of college coordinator who is hopefully sheltered from the politics – hopefully, neutral me and older, bullied department veteran.

      1. Marisol*

        Have you mentioned any of this to older veteran? She may have some insight. Perhaps she doesn’t give a flying fig about Sansa.

  7. T3k*

    What would you do if one of the instructions for a job application is to appear in person to drop it off? For background, it’s a fashion company but the job position itself is more like logistics and not a modeling position. Other than the fashion part though, the job really does sound great and like something I can do as I love data and organizing, and it sounds like I wouldn’t need to work with customers except as backup. There is also a way to apply if one is remote, but I’m only 20 mins. away.
    Of course, my main concern is that they’re either going to judge me based on my looks or how I dress (I dress in graphic tees and jeans on a regular basis), not counting the fact that where they’re located, parking is a pain and it costs money, which is tight on my end right now. Part of me wants to be blunt and go “I’d show up in person, but I don’t want to waste my time/money/gas just to have you throw out my resume as soon as I leave when I can do that at home for free” but of course that won’t fly. One suggestion given to me was to pretend I was away and couldn’t deliver it in person at the time. It was also pointed out to me that maybe they’re doing this to see how desperate the person really wants the job, but I feel that’s stupid in itself because someone with a full time job in the next city would have a difficult time dropping by if that was the case. So, should I pretend I didn’t see these instructions at the bottom of the application, address it with a lie, go anyways, or just not even bother applying? Of course, if it came down to a requirement that I’d have to ditch my jeans I wouldn’t take it because I hate skirts and dressing up, so I only own 2 pairs of dress pants (I’ve been lucky so far that the few jobs I’ve had were casual).

    1. Epsilon Delta*

      If I really wanted the job, I would suck it up an do it. Otherwise, I would skip applying. I guess it wouldn’t hurt to email it and possibly include a note about why you can’t drop it off in person, but it doesn’t seem worth it to me since the drop-off-in-person part is clearly important to them for some reason.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If it’s in fashion and they want you to drop it off in person, then I would recommend dressing up and taking it in. I’m guessing that appearance is going to be an important part of that job and if you don’t want to dress up every day, it may not be a good culture fit for you.

      1. T3k*

        True, I guess I was trying to ignore the possible clash in job culture because I do need a job and it sounded great, but if the culture isn’t a good fit to begin with, there’d be no sense in applying.

        1. Elizabeth H.*

          I think if the job sounds great to you in terms of what you would do day to day you should go ahead and apply. If dropping it off in person is a serious enough deterrent then it’s probably a sign you aren’t so into the job. But the thing is, if they like your resume and interview you you will have to go there at least once again anyway. I too think the most likely idea they want to see you in person is cultural fit – or it’s possible they want to do informal mini interviews with everyone who comes in, like in some retail places – but you have no way of knowing whether or not you would be a good fit until you actually go there. I definitely wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that bc you wear jeans and don’t like dressing up they wouldn’t want you to work there.

        2. louyu*

          Do you know for sure that you would need to dress up more nicely, or is that speculation? If the latter, why not just drop off the application wearing your everyday clothes? If it’s a deal breaker for them, it’d be a deal breaker for you too. But if it turns out they’re perfectly happy to see you in jeans and a tee, then maybe the culture would be a good fit after all.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        I’m with the detective.

        “It sounds like I wouldn’t need to work with customers except as backup.”
        There you have it–they are probably screening by a quick soft skills and appearance evaluation, “Would we be comfortable if New Employee needed to step in and deal with customers.” If you’re unwilling to give up jeans and T-shirts, this job is unlikely to fit.

        “Should I pretend I didn’t see these instructions?”
        Never. If you think they are ridiculous and don’t want to follow them, then it’s a sign that you are not right for the job. (Whether that is because the employer is utterly bonkers, or because you don’t get/like a normal requirement.)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          It’s a good way to find out if the person is in the area. It also might clue them as to whether a person is already working or not. It could be a “can you follow basic instructions?” type of thing.

    3. SophieChotek*

      Yeah I admit that seems surprising they would want it dropped off…(I agree the time/parking etc. is a pain.)
      Of course my question is, if you are concerned they might judge you on appearances and because you only live 20 minutes away, would they expect you do work in person at the office since you are close-by? (Because while I think the bar for dress is probably higher when one is applying that once is hired and established) if they are that quick to judge just to drop off an application, they might expect a different dress code etc, even if you never work with customers. (Plus I’ve heard fashion industry is way different in terms of dress expectations/name brands, etc. — which might be true even if you’re doing computer/data stuff? I don’t know.) Anyway, I guess maybe it depends on how much you want the job — will you be sorry you didn’t at least try and take the time and spend the money if you don’t?

      1. T3k*

        I guess not. I’m about as fashion avoidant as one can get, so while the job sounded great, the place’s perceived culture does not.

    4. nicolefromqueens*

      If you do apply, follow their instructions.

      One thing you can do is create a dummy email with a totally different (realistic-looking) name where you can ask them this question, without worrying.

    5. Collie*

      Personally, I wouldn’t apply. But this is the kind of thing that would really bother me for a variety of reasons. If I was feeling extra gutsy, I might say, “I’m happy to drop off my resume in person if you can guarantee I’ll also interview at the same time,” with the understanding that it was a legitimate interview. (Except I’m never that gutsy and I’m pretty sure this would not actually work well.)

    6. College Career Counselor*

      Dropping it off in person is likely not to be done with the hiring manager, although I see your concerns about being judged for your attire and appreciate the cost factor involved with an in-person application (esp. in the 21st century).

      So, I would suggest you use the remote application procedure and indicate that you were not able to deliver the application in person (that’s why they presumably have a remote application process). This could have been because you were half-way around the world, because you couldn’t get the time off from your current job, because you have other commitments outside of work that precluded the commute, whatever.

      However, the part of your letter that really sticks out to me are you concerns about having to alter your appearance just to *apply*. If so, is this a place you ultimately would feel comfortable working?

      1. T3k*

        Guess not if they want me to dress up just to work. I’m very self-conscious and uncomfortable if I have to dress up, which ends up taking my focus off my job.

    7. WellRed*

      Do you want the job? It’s an unusual requirement, sure, but hardly a reason to get all miffed.

    8. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      Yeah, I would suspect it’s because they want to eyeball you to ensure you’d fit with the aesthetic of their workplace. Which is lookist, for sure, but it’s the reality in a lot of the fashion and fashion-adjacent industries. And, to some degree, it does make sense; all workplaces want some sense of mission passion in their employees, even the ones that aren’t public-facing, and if you’re not into fashion at all, you probably don’t have that passion. It’s entirely possible you’d do exceptionally well in the job because you’re passionate about the work, but in fashion, there are always waaaaaay more applicants than positions, so I’d guess they can easily find people who are both qualified and into fashion. Sorry, it doesn’t sound to me that this place would be a good culture fit for you :(

      1. T3k*

        Yeah, I guess I was trying to find another reason to like the idea of the job, but only the job duties itself are appealing, not the culture.

    9. Anonygoose*

      My advice….
      Watch the Devil Wears Prada and figure out if that type of culture is worth it to you. This post reminds me of that movie so much, and the reality is that even if the job is great experience, jobs in fashion are not for everyone.
      *Also, the Devil Wears Prada is a fantastic movie so I recommend it either way!

      2. Taylor Swift*

        That seems like a real stretch based on the one thing we know about this employer, which is that they want applications dropped off in person.

        1. Anonygoose*

          That’s true! It is a fashion place though.
          On the other hand, it might be a good opportunity to check out the culture for yourself… If you go there and observe a bit, it should be very obvious whether or not the culture/dress code is for you or not!

    10. Office Plant*

      I wouldn’t be so cynical about it. There are definitely some YUCKY explanations for it, but it’s also possible that they want to make a face to face connection and chat briefly with all applicants. They might be trying to narrow the pool and make the application process more personal. If I was a hiring manager, I could see wanting to meet everyone instead of just going through a pile of resumes. It’s not really a fair requirement because it gives some people an unfair advantage over others. Your story is a good example. But the intentions behind it might be well meaning.

      1. Kimberlee, Esq*

        Also, even if it is just so they can see how applicants look and dress, I don’t necessarily think that’s inherently yucky. It’s entirely possible that you’re free to look however you want and wear whatever brands you want so long as it’s clear you care about fashion, style, and aesthetics. Or it might not be. Either way, I would consider it akin to someone applying at PETA wearing a leather jacket; it’s not so unreasonable based on the mission of the workplace to reject someone for that, even though it has little direct connection to the work the applicant might be doing.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          It doesn’t have to be “Are you beautiful?” It can be “Do you look pulled together?”

          Like how everyone in the art department can wear scarves, and the scarves look really good. They totally pull the outfit together and the look is perfectly balanced. Because they… do like an art thing, and it works.

        2. Office Plant*

          Yeah. I agree. But if it veered into judging applicants by age, body type, how much their clothes cost, whether they look typical for their gender, etc etc, that would be yucky. I know that already happens with LinkedIn and Googling people, but in person, I think there would be more room for it.

    11. Panda Bandit*

      If you want this job I’d say dress up and go drop it off. Since parking is terrible, can you ask a friend to drive with you and circle the block while you take your application in?

    12. Whats In A Name*

      I would just say getting dressed and taking it down there to drop it off now will also give you a quick glimpse into culture. If you decide it’s not a fit I’d see it as time well spent, instead of time wasted. This way you are dropping a resume, not wrapping up many hours prepping for, driving to, having and returning from a full blown interview.

    13. CM*

      I would just go, and I’d see the odd requirement as a plus because it would weed out 90% of people who might apply but couldn’t be bothered to go there in person.

    14. Wanna-Alp*

      I’m guessing they get a lot of applications, being a fashion company, and this is one way to thin the crowd, by weeding out people who can’t follow instructions. But they are possibly going to take a quick look at you, too, so that’s why they chose this particular way of filtering?

    15. Devil wears nada*

      I’ve worked in fashion companies and trust me, they’re not all places where people dress “fashion-y” all the time. they probably just want to cut down on the applications they have to go through.

      If you want to look a little more polished, just throw a blazer over the t shirt and jeans.

    16. MillersSpring*

      Your only data point for thinking that they want to see how you look/dress is that it’s a fashion company.

      They might be wanting all candidates to fill out a paper application or to see the office. Maybe it’s grittier or more shoestring than most candidates imagine, and they want applicants to see the real situation. Or maybe the apply-in-person request is just boilerplate for the majority of their job postings that ARE fashion driven. Who knows?

      I would use the remote option to apply because you live 20 minutes away. Or if it is convenient to go in person, dress as you would for an interview.

  8. Nervous Accountant*

    A lot happened this week and I don’t even know where to begin. It’s a lot.

    This happened on the day of the snow storm and we were working from home. A client left a negative review on our social media which our upper mgmt watch like a hawk. Got a scolding from my boss that it was unacceptable, to call her and tug at her heart strings to remove it. After lots of attempts to reach her, I had to ask her to change it.

    And….feel free to tell me if I’m being unreasonable because I am self aware and try to self correct. but….I….cried. I’ve never cried when talking to a client, but I cried bc I felt humiliated and disgusting to have to beg for forgiveness and then crying obv made it worse.

    I’ve been working 60+ hours a week, managing 300+ clients AND taking care of fires and trying to help out my mgr how I can and manage my team….I was in the ER last week with a family member so I had that on my mind…despite knowing and seeing all of that, my boss is quiet, but THIS and she’s on me like a hawk. And I don’t know why but it esp hurts that she never acknowledged or even asked me when I told her about being in the ER.

    The next day when we were back in the office, I actually vented and nearly cried to my manager and I did cry at my desk for a few minutes. He understood why I was frustrated…I even got a glowing email from my boss after the whole episode, but….for some reason it just doesn’t feel good anymore.

    1. a big fish in a very small pond*

      I’m not sure what to say, but in reading this it does feel like you’re being way too hard on yourself and expecting superhuman capabilities in coping and managing the realities of life. I hope things get better quickly for you!

      1. Parenthetically*

        Totally agreed. This sounds like a lot of exhaustion. Nervous Accountant, you deserve kindness, from yourself first and foremost. I hope you get some respite. Best of luck.

      2. Nervous Accountant*

        Thanks guys. I think I’m just tired and feeling shitty for lack of sleep. Honestly, I was feeling pretty good bc I thought my performance was great this tax season so far….I made it almost 2 months into the tax season without crying and I think that’s pretty great compared to the last 4 seasons.

        I also think I’m just super frustrated with my boss (not my manager, we’re good but our boss) bc I feel like she’s being unreasonable (expecting us to come in to work on the day of hte blizzard, not acknowledging when and why I had to come in to work late due to an emergency). Just having that whole phone call, spending my whole day on someone, to beg a client to remove a review felt gross to me. (although I fully expect that I’m being unreasonable about this last piece, and missing another point to this).

        1. Parenthetically*

          Your boss can be unreasonable AND you can feel gross about the call AND you can be frustrated about crying AND it can all be totally understandable and normal and human. Give yourself a break! Exhausting, frustrating, emotional seasons are a good time to take a minute to reflect on how fleeting and transitory everything is in life. You’ll get through this!

        2. Lana Kane*

          For what it’s worth, I think it’s not good that they wanted you to ask her to remove it. I would find it humiliating. Call the client and ask how you could rectify the situation? Sure – and if you had a productive conversation, that client might have even just retracted it, or added an update praising the company’s customer service skills. No one expects a company to be perfect, but they do expect a good reception to complaints.

          I’m sorry you went through that, and I hope you get some sleep soon. That definitely doesn’t help.

    2. LizB*

      That is a whole lot, in work and outside of it! I totally understand why you ended up crying. Don’t be too hard on yourself – yeah, it’s not ideal, but you’re human. Stuff happens. I hope things get better for you soon!

    3. Dzhymm, BfD*

      Was it an unfair negative review, or did it voice a legitimate complaint? Was the tone of the response supposed to be “We’re sorry you had a bad experience, how can we do better?” or “That review tarnished our image and we demand you take it down now or face a defamation suit?” In other words, is the tone of the interaction about benefiting the customer or the company. If the former, it would be better to have the response come from the boss herself (customers feel better if their concerns appear to be addressed higher up on the food chain). If the latter, maybe you should look for a new job…

    5. Marisol*

      From a purely practical, and possibly even machiavellian (sp?) standpoint, I think if your boss told you to “tug at the client’s heartstrings,” and you succeeded in actually CRYING to the client, well, I’d say you nailed it. Good on ya.

    6. michelleeh*

      Sending good vibes your way – I have had an awful week, for many similar reasons (though different circumstances), and wish you the best. Thank you to everyone, as always, for being so supportive on this site. It isn’t just the OP who needs your advice.

    7. louyu*

      I think your read on the situation’s probably right, since your boss is being unreasonable across the board, but I hope it’s OK to throw out one alternate possibility in case it helps ease your worry at all: Is it possible your boss thinks not mentioning the ER visit is the supportive thing to do? A couple years ago I sent my boss a 4 AM e-mail message that said, nearly verbatim, “I just got out of the ER, and I won’t be able to come to work today. I expect to be at work tomorrow.” He replied, “OK, get well soon,” and never said another word about it. I was really, really grateful for that response, since I didn’t want to talk about it at work. I’d been prepared to evade follow-up questions if necessary, but it was a huge relief that I didn’t have to. I can imagine being insensitive in a similar situation by assuming that everybody else had the same preferences as me.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        It would, but I’ve worked with her for a while and noticed she’s very warm and interested in people and asks about them personally….if she likes them.

    8. Panda Bandit*

      I’d feel gross too, asking a client to do that. I don’t think negative reviews should be removed. Sometimes customers get annoyed when asked and change it so it’s even worse! If it really must be done, the responsibility should go to a boss or dedicated public relations/social media person.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I’m almost crying and this didn’t even happen to me.

      You’re pretty normal.
      Your boss, not so much.

      The expectation that you should control what is said on social media is so totally unrealistic I have no words.

      People are going to write negative things. That’s what they do. Your boss asked you to manage something that is NOT yours to manage.
      Of course you feel icky. People have the right to speak. If Boss doesn’t want people commenting then he needs to get off of social media.

      So now what is the plan? Every time there is a negative comment you have to call that person and talk them down off the ceiling?

      I am hopping ticked for you. Your boss seems to totally fail to grasp how social media works.

      I would consider going back in on this one. Maybe ask what will happen if there are any further negative comments. Will you have to fix those also? Ask if this is the best use of your time. Ask if other people will have to talk to their clients if their clients say something negative.

      Am shaking my head, for you to have to control what others are saying on the internet is off the wall.

  9. I'm working with someone who despises me*

    First of all, I have to say a HUGE thank you to everyone who commented last week. I can’t tell you how helpful (most of) the advice was. I read every response multiple times, and actually I have almost a page of quotes from that thread up on my computer where I can see it every day.

    I’d say y’all were responsible for about a third of what it took to get me to where I am now. Cersei is still acting like a jerk but it’s no longer affecting me. On the contrary, I’m finding her antics more and more hilarious as I continue to internalize the fact that this is really all about her. Depending on the day, I also have a fair amount of compassion for her. She must be a deeply miserable person, whereas I am really happy with my life right now and I’m no longer allowing her to get in the way of that!

    Granted, I’m still looking for another job and I’m still going to try to get out of here sooner rather than later. This is still a pretty nasty situation that doesn’t work for me long term, I’m still disappointed in Wakeen for refusing to deal with it more directly.

    But thanks entirely to my updated attitude / mindset, I can deal with this awhile longer. And that’s no small thing.

    I think I had it in my head that I had to fight for things to be fairer, that I wasn’t showing myself any respect by “allowing” her to treat me this way. But I’m starting to realize that not allowing a toxic person to have control over how you see yourself is just as powerful in some ways as fighting back. Maybe more so.

    In addition to the great quotes you guys provided, I also have this written on that page: “That which yields is not always weak.” I’m more or less yielding to the Cersei situation by accepting that I can’t change her, playing by Wakeen’s stupid rules, and ultimately rewarding her with my departure. But I’ve never felt stronger.

    1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

      And a bonus story about Cersei’s latest drama (I truly found this amusing, which goes to show how much has changed since last week).

      As I mentioned, we work in a house rather than a traditional office. So we all bring our own food and drink. Cersei used to bring in ice for the office, which only she and I ever used. (I offered to alternate bringing it in back when we were still on good terms, more than once, but she never took me up on that.) I haven’t been using any for months, but I took a small handful a week or two ago.

      So I came in yesterday and opened the freezer and… there was a bag of ice, wrapped with a rubber band and post it more with Cersei’s name. She has never done that before and like I said, no one else uses ice. She pretty clearly labeled it for my benefit so I would no longer be tempted to share her ice.

      ICE, people.

      Yeah, I got a good giggle out of that one.

      3. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

        Can you leave a bag of water on her desk with a note: “Returning your ice?”

        1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

          HAHAHA I LOVE IT. So tempting. That would be hilarious. Absolutely the right move if this we’re a sitcom.

        2. Jadelyn*

          This is why I keep coming here day after day. Best comments section anywhere on the internet.

        3. MuseumChick*

          I would be so tempted to do that on the very last day, literally right before walking out the door, “Oh! Cersi, I almost forgot *set bag-O-water on her desk* I’m returning the ice I borrowed from you.” *Walk Out*

          1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

            Mental note is being taken because I might really need to do that.

            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              You absolutely need to do that, period, full stop. Just a big Ziploc bag full of water. “Here’s all the ice I borrowed from you.”

              1. Purple Hair Chick*

                I worked with a lady who complained to managment that I would fill my water bottle before going home. She said because I wasnt consuming water on company property I was stealing. LOL! I offered to “pay” for each fill up before I went home but management said it was OK and that I just had to be more descrete about it in front of her. Of course I did the opposite and made a big deal about getting water before going home. People can worry about the strangest things.

      4. Jadelyn*

        Amazing, how funny it can be when you can take the step back and just kind of watch the petty contortions that kind of person will go through in order to work themselves up into righteous indignation.

        I used to work with a benefits administrator – she had been my supervisor, then thank gods we reorganized the dept and I no longer had to work under her – who had SERIOUS control issues. You couldn’t even get close enough to actually step on her toes, because if she so much as sensed that you were in the same zip code as her toes, she would throw a fit.

        And I reached that laughing-at-her-absurdity point when one day we had a termination (letting someone go for performance issues) that was kind of a last-second thing, and she happened to be out of the office. We tried calling her to see if she could hop on her laptop at home and do the final benefits paperwork we needed, but she wasn’t answering her phone or emails. Well, I’m the HR assistant, I know where all the paperwork is on the shared drive and how to fill everything out because I end up being the de facto backup for most of the team as needed. So, since it was a same-day term and we couldn’t wait, I completed the final benefits notice (that lets the person know what date their coverage ends, etc.) so that we could give it to the person along with their other final paperwork.

        When she responded later that afternoon, hours after we’d already finished everything and the former employee was long since gone from the building, it was with a supremely snippy email to me, cc’ing both our managers and two VPs, saying “Going forward, I prefer to fill out all benefits paperwork myself.” She had attached her version of the benefits form that I’d done that morning.

        If you put them side by side – which we did – you know what the only difference was? She had included the former employee’s middle initial in the “name” field. Which was something she had never ever done on any prior term paperwork (I checked several previous term files and none of them had that), meaning she literally seized on the only thing she could find to change about it in order to throw her little fit.

        And normally I’d have been furious at being spoken to like that, especially with management and senior management as witness, but this was so ridiculous and so obviously her putting her control issues on display for everyone to observe that all I could do was laugh. She finally got fired last year, but we still joke about that incident from time to time.

        1. Stephanie (HR Manager)*

          Did you put her middle initial in her benefits paperwork?

          (couldn’t help it!)

          1. Jadelyn*

            Oh you bet your [body part] I did. I took great, borderline inappropriate personal satisfaction in adding that single letter when I wrote up her notice. :)

      6. OhBehave*

        A little PA, but you should bring in a small baggie of ice and label it with your name ;)

    2. Dizzy Steinway*

      I remember your posts from last week. Hang in there – I’m really sorry you’re dealing with this, and glad the comments helped.

    3. MuseumChick*

      I’m so glad that you are able to find humor in this situation. Your right, Cersei is probably unhappy in her down life. I hope you find a new job soon. And I hope you are very blunt with Wakeen in you exit interview.

      1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        I’m looking forward to that :-)

        (For the record, Wakeen is a good guy and I really like working for him, apart from this. But I do plan to be very honest about the fact that his choice here was the main factor in my looking elsewhere. I absolutely planned to be here for the long haul until this happened.)

        1. KG, Ph.D.*

          The world is unfortunately fully of good guys (and good people in general) who aren’t willing to stick their necks out and do the right thing. That’s really frustrating, and I’m sorry you’re in this situation. I hope that he listens to your feedback and makes different decisions in the future.

          1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

            Me too. Hopefully losing me will be so devastating that he is forced to reconsider his path of least resistance choices :-P

            At the end of the day, it’s his company and his call to make. I wish him nothing but well, and I hope he succeeds with all of his plans. But I do think this “protect the poison apple” approach will cost him in the long run. Cost him more than just me, I mean.

    4. AMG*

      Alison posted something once years ago that I actually wrote down and saved in my desk drawer. It was something along the lines of treating people like her (Cersei) as an odd specimen that you are studying. Don’t get to close as she is bite-y but observe with humor and fascination. You are on the right track!

      1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        Haha! I have an Alison quote on my list too (actually it was the first one I wrote down which gave me the idea to add other advice to it):

        “The thing is, though, you don’t have any control over her; you only have control over how you respond to her. I know it’s unpleasant to deal with someone like this, but it’s about her not you. Because someone professional and not-a-jerk wouldn’t treat you that way, no matter what you were doing to provoke it. Therefore, it’s not about you.”

        I read that one a LOT in the early days of the Cersei Drama Parade. Super helpful.

      2. Jadelyn*

        YES – it was here that I first happened upon the idea of treating a toxic situation with detachment by pretending you’re an anthropologist studying the whackadoodles around you.

        Bonus points if you narrate your observations under your breath in your best “nature channel documentary” voice.

    5. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I think I had it in my head that I had to fight for things to be fairer, that I wasn’t showing myself any respect by “allowing” her to treat me this way. But I’m starting to realize that not allowing a toxic person to have control over how you see yourself is just as powerful in some ways as fighting back. Maybe more so.

      Yes! And not only that, many abusers get their kicks, maintain control, and keep the attention focused on them by manipulating people into rigged arguments where the abuser sets the premise. The terms “grey rock” or “black hole” are used to shrug things off and either not answer or make noncommittal noises or one-word answers in a flat voice. This deprives them of the joy they get from prodding you and trying to make you squirm.

      So in the end, defending yourself can further THEIR ends and make things worse. Usually the best option is to remove yourself from the abusive situation, and if you can’t do that immediately, do whatever you need to do to cope while you plan your escape.

      Good luck! We’re rooting for you!

      1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        Thank you, that’s very kind and very true!

        Ironically, I’m training to be a volunteer for a local organization that supports victims of domestic violence at the moment. So this rings especially true. And I have to say that learning more about all of these topics is a) putting things into perspective but also b) helping me to realize that I can ALWAYS advocate for myself in a healthy way; I don’t need anyone’s permission to deal with a toxic person or situation in whatever way feels most appropriate to me and keeps me the most stable (as long as that method doesn’t harm anyone else, of course).

        I’m beyond glad I signed up for that training when I did. It is changing my whole life, no exaggeration. And it’s part of why I’m so happy right now, and why I’m able to not let Cersei get to me anymore.

    6. Bess*

      I haven’t had this with a coworker, but with my last roommate. She literally began giving me the silent treatment to the point she didn’t tell me maintenance had arrived for a request I’d submitted–I was out on the patio, 5 feet away from her, and she didn’t come get me, or tell me…lol. I found out when the ticket was resolved. I think maaaaaaaaybe she wanted me to get fed up and move out, even though I had arranged most of the apartment logistics.

      It really, really sucked away my energy, and I completely understand how much of a mental drain this is on you at work. I spent a lot of energy trying to understand her illogical behavior. When a person is this huge a part of your life, it’s nearly impossible to disconnect. Sounds like a small enough team that it’s similar to living with them…so, yeah. This is a “my stuff, her stuff” mantra situation for sure. Can you play dumb at all to get through it, accepting that it won’t truly change her?

      Hope you can resolve this–and this really is something your manager should not just be sitting back and taking. This is just professionally unacceptable. BUT if they won’t step up, I might do yourself a favor and think about other jobs…which is maybe a little bit Cersei “winning,” but it’s also pragmatically a solution to a problem that might otherwise not have a solution. Over the years I’ve really had to work to accept that sometimes a workplace is simply not going to do “the right thing,” and then you have to make a choice.

        1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

          No problem! I’m definitely looking actively for another job. I agree that in one sense it’ll feel to Cersei like she “won” but hopefully it’ll spark a long term shift in Wakeen’s thinking and she won’t be given license to behave so childishly in the future. None of that is within my control, so I’m not going to stress about it. Leaving here is about looking after myself and my own well being; it’s not about “winning” in the sense of a victory over Cersei.

          You know, in one way Wakeen did me a favor. It’s not the way I would have wanted it, but by forcing me to deal with this on my own and not backing me up, he gave me an opportunity to develop some tools for handling a toxic person that I can use in other situations going forward. His decision to avoid this conflict ended up facilitating a lot of growth for me!

          2. Anatole*

            I love the positive spin you are putting on this definitely not positive situation. Good on you!

    7. Marisol*

      Atta girl! Way to step into your power and not be a victim, even in adverse circumstances! So glad you’re in a healthy mindset about the whole crazy mess.

      1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        Thank you!

        “Find ways to take back your power” definitely made it onto my quote list. Along with the stuff about not getting drawn into ego battles and saving my fight for stuff that truly matters.

        Oh, and the mirror visualization. I can’t remember if that was yours but I loved it.

        1. Marisol*

          Don’t think the mirror visualization was mine, but the ego battles stuff was. I’ve had my share of ego battles! That was the day I had a semi-migrainous headache and remember feeling self conscious that I was rambling on about Sun Tzu, of all people, so the lesson for *me* on that day was to trust that I had some wisdom to share, and to share it even though I might look like a rambly wierdo.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      And you aren’t going around the office singing, “Ice, ice, baby”? You are showing very good self-restraint.

      On the serious side: (Alert: Bad misquote) An Eastern saying asks “which is stronger the willow tree or the oak tree?” The answer is the willow tree because it the face of a hurricane it bends. Sure it loses a few limbs here and there, but when the storm is over it rights itself. The oak tree on the other hand, breaks from straining so hard to remain upright against the winds.

      Now you know the secret. Let her have her ice. While she is clinging to her ice you have the world opening right up in front of you.

      Congrats on pulling some thoughts together on this one and congrats on living those ideas in real life.

      1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        Thank you, NSNR. I plan to be a total willow tree here. Plus, I plan to RETURN HER ICE when I leave.

  10. ThatGirl*

    Hey everyone.

    So two weeks ago, the day before we were scheduled to leave for a 10-day vacation, I was abruptly laid off along with about half my department. They gutted us and outsourced our positions. It was a complete shock to me. Thankfully there was a severance package included, although one of the conditions for taking it is that I cannot work for that company again, ever. That seemed bizarre and unnecessarily restrictive to me, but I’ve never been laid off before, so what do I know? Is that actually normal?

    Ugh, I am looking hard and I’ve sent out several great applications this week, I just hope I get some phone calls soon.

    I also think I need to spruce up my interview wardrobe. I need a nice jacket or something, hopefully I can find a good deal.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I mean to say, too, that I feel a little more positive about this than I otherwise would because of Ask a Manager – I feel much more prepared for sending out resumes, interviewing, etc. :) So thanks Alison!

    2. Parenthetically*

      I have no advice, about the condition, but this happened to several of my friends a couple weeks ago too! All laid off with no notice. It was so rough. Sympathies.

      ThredUp is a good place to look for business wardrobe stuff, and I’ve found plenty of great deals at Nordstrom Rack and similar “outlet” type stores. I always have good luck at Macy’s clearance too!

      Best of luck.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Thank you, we have several “clearance” type places around here as well as decent thrift stores, so I have some time and places to look.

      2. Whats In A Name*

        I second Macy’s and Banana Republic has been pretty aweseome for me too..I took the price tag off a blazer from there the other day and I paid $11.99 for it on their clearance wall….it’s even lined.

    3. T3k*

      That’s… that’s not normal, to say as a condition for severance is that you can’t ever work for them again, especially as you all were laid off, not fired. Now I’m curious if that’s a weird policy of theirs and for what reason.

      1. burnt toast*

        it’s not uncommon…. I had that as a condition of my lay off even if it made no sense at all. To further add to the confusion, I continued to work for them as a consultant for a year after the lay-off.

        When the company did their first round of lay-offs 5 years ago, everyone had that in their notices but then when the company did their re-org & started hiring again, at least 1/2 of the laid off folk came back.

        Of course, I have no desire to go back to work for them as I lost all respect for the bosses….

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      That restriction is really strange. I have never heard about that for a layoff. In fact, a friend of mine just got laid off from a huge corporation, and their policy is to put you on an LOA first so you can try to find something else within the company.

      I’m sorry this happened. Good luck finding something new and excellent!

      1. ThatGirl*

        Well, there was one caveat to that: there were (are) 10 open positions within the larger marketing department that we could apply for. If we did that and did not get one, we were then free to take the severance package (and never work there again).

        But I looked over those jobs, and for many of them I didn’t have the required skills, it would have meant a paycut, or I didn’t want to work with the manager involved. I also didn’t want to compete with former co-workers who might have been in more desperate need. I figured this was my chance to find something closer to home.

        Even so, it seemed like a really odd clause and I was curious if it was even remotely standard.

        1. Chriama*

          I would hesitate to accept that condition. If you take the severance, do they mark you as ‘ineligible for rehire’? You are agreeing to never work for them again so that sounds like ineligible for rehire to me. If so, that’s not a great reference for future employers. I’d start by asking HR about the clause and getting an explanation that the ‘never work for us again’ statement has nothing to do with your job performance *and* confirm what they’ll say to reference checkers (all in writing). If they give you the runaround for too long I would talk to an attorney to see what your options are, if any.

          1. ThatGirl*

            I don’t think it will sound too weird to say “it was a condition of severance that I can’t work for them directly again, but I have multiple managers who will confirm my excellent work”… at least I would hope not. Still, it probably is worth asking about what they would say to future employers who might be confirming my employment.

    5. introvert*

      I was laid off a few years ago and the condition for accepting severance was that if we took another position within the company within 6 months of payout, we had to pay back the severance. After 6 months, we were free to apply for whatever we wanted without penalty.

      1. Anna*

        Same. It’s a weird condition that they wouldn’t want you working for them. Maybe they are strangely worried about you badmouthing them or hurting moral if you were rehired in the future?

      2. AdAgencyChick*

        What if you accepted a position, say, four months after? Would you have had to repay the full severance or a prorated amount, given that you’d have been sans salary for four months? Just curious.

    6. Snow*

      It is normal in the UK if you are made redundant to not be able to go back to that company within a certain period of time (or at least not without repaying the redundancy money) but not ever – that seems really harsh.

    7. Office Plant*

      Call me crazy, but that clause sounds unethical. They’re paying people to sign something that limits their future job prospects, and not for a reason related to qualifications or performance. I don’t know if any laws apply here, but just as an ordinary person, I think it’s wrong.

    8. Anatole*

      When I was laid off from a nonprofit many years ago one of the conditions was that I could never apply for a job there again. I could work there again but they had to reach out to me. And you want to be certain of the terms of the severance. In my case I believe there was a clause about not discussing the terms of the severance with other people. And I also could not use my former supervisor as a reference. There was nothing wrong with my work performance this was just a matter of my department was outsourced. My supervisor would’ve been happy to be a reference but she was not allowed to be a reference for me. All this to say just be certain that you’re fully aware of what the requirements are of the severance package.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I definitely need to re-read everything one more time – the HR rep did go over the basics of it with me – but right then and there I asked my grandboss if he’d be a reference and he readily agreed and nobody looked at me sideways, so I’m relatively sure that’s fine.

        It is strange how different companies handle these things, for sure.

    9. zora*

      I guess from reading the other comments that there are many different ways to deal with a layoff like this.

      When the Tech Bubble collapsed, I was working in HR for a tech company that had mass layoffs, and they actually included a hire back clause, where anyone who was part of that layoff would get priority consideration if they were hiring again in the future. So, the condition you mentioned surprised me. Weird.

    10. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      Ugh, that sucks. I’ve never heard of that clause for a layoff. I didn’t have anything like that when I’ve been laid off in the past. I agree with Chriama – definitely find out what they will tell reference checkers. (Unless you were at the company from an earlier letter this week that threatened legal action if the OP and fellow members of their former department contacted them again!)

      That said, I always had it in my head that I shouldn’t apply for a job at a company where I’d previously been let go (or even another company that’s part of the same parent company.) I guess I feel like that door is now closed to me, the ship has sailed, and I need to go elsewhere. Is this rational thinking or am I too much in my head on this? (To clarify, this is not directed at ThatGirl or anyone else at all. Just me. : ) )

    11. Piano girl*

      I was laid off a week ago, and our department head (who disagrees with the layoff) was very clear that I was eligible for re-hire, and added that when potential employers are asked about former employees, that there isn’t much that they can say, other than whether or not they are eligible for re-hire. Could it possibly be a way for your employer to get out of paying a severance package???

      1. ThatGirl*

        I doubt it, though I couldn’t tell you what their actual reasoning is — I live and work in the Chicago metro area, there are tons of companies around here and no real shortage of similar jobs in a decent economy. I can’t see why anyone would forgo the severance just for a theoretical chance to work there again (not counting people who immediately applied for an open position).

    12. NaoNao*

      My only guess could be that the company is following some kind of strictly worded regulation that prevents laying off as full time and hiring back all the same people as temp or consultants, or some kind of clause that prevents basically using layoffs to re-org or something?
      It’s rare that companies enact rules in the employees’ favor, so I’m not at all sure that’s it, but wouldn’t it be nice if that were the case?

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        Yeah, this is what I figured. But the “never” part seems unnecessarily restrictive.

  11. Cranberry*

    You know how we always talk about how people shouldn’t be indispensable, and say “If you won the lottery and left tomorrow, the company would have to go on without you”? My company did not do a good job of this, and one of our absolutely crucial SMEs with impossible to replace institutional knowledge, who has consequently been overworked for years, is leaving. We’re all happy on her behalf, but this is going to make my job much harder.

    Moral of the story is, don’t let one person handle the work of an entire department for an entire division! :)

    1. Parenthetically*

      I’m working right now at trying to get my 9 years of experience in this job down on paper for just this reason. I’m going to part-time this fall (having a baby in August) and will likely move on after next school year, and I’m the only one who has taught most of these classes in that time. I want to be able to hand my boss a thumb drive and a stack of papers and have it be as smooth a transition as possible. Horror stories about that one employee who has all the institutional knowledge and then quits in a rage or dies suddenly or retires and moves to Boca, never to be heard from again, are really lighting a fire under me about it lately.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Yes I agree — there needs to be training procedures in place, so someone else can pick it up. Was this critical person just ready to leave or overworked and not getting support and finally had it or just retiring? I’m sorry it is going to make your job harder, though. =(

      1. Cranberry*

        The difficulty is that it’s not just training- it’s the depth of knowledge that this person has about everything. Our area is very dependent on experience. So I’m sure we’ll be able to limp along on procedural things… but the next audit will be a disaster. And of course, this area is understaffed already, so there are limited people to train.
        She’s been here forever, so I think it was a time to leave spurred by being overworked. Her and my departments have been increasingly mismanaged/disrespected in past years as well and after seeing this person’s treatment on many projects for just doing her job, I don’t blame her.

        1. Cookie D'Oh*

          Yep, same thing happened in my group at the end of last year. The person that left had a depth of knowledge about some very complex areas of our systems. There was a couple of weeks of transition time, but you can’t transfer 15 years worth of knowledge over in that amount of time.

          We’ve definitely had issues with certain teapot orders not processing correctly since he left. Luckily, he was gracious enough to answer a few pressing questions via email for us. It’s been tough.

    3. Future Analyst*

      I’ve been wondering about something like this! We have a similar situation going on at work, partially (I suspect) because our company has know grown exponentially in the last 3-4 years, and still acts like it’s a company of 600. I’ve raised this once with my manager (in particular, I’ve volunteered to get cross-trained in whatever capacity necessary), but is it ever appropriate to raise that at a higher level (e.g. to my manager’s manager)? I’m concerned that we have several people in our IT dept that are quite literally the only people in the world who know how their individual systems work (we’ve built several things in-house), and when one of them went on vacation in February, it was a disaster, with automations being turned on when they shouldn’t, and emails going to clients when they shouldn’t. Since something like your situation could so easily happen here, do I have any responsibility/standing to raise it as a concern?

      Sorry to hear it’ll make your job harder!!

      1. winter*

        I cannot tell you, but I can relate. It’s pretty much the same with our IT. The only difference: The leadership knows and is working around the admin as a missing stair because they’ve been unsuccessful adding more team members for years. (The admin is … difficult.) I don’t know what they think they’ll be doing if the admin leaves suddenly.

    4. Gracie*

      Lol tell that to my management team. I’m literally the only one who knows what I do and I’m leaving in 4 weeks. Still waiting for them to tell me who I’m training as my replacement

    5. Hiding From You*

      ooooh!!! This is almost me! I’ve been telling my department leadership for years that there’s too much on me – that I’m the single point of failure for too many things. I’ve begged for back up. I’ve tried to cross train and arm everyone so that there’s coverage when I’m unavailable. No dice.
      Now I’m through the interview process for a really good opportunity elsewhere and likely to receive an offer soon. And then I’m out. I feel bad for some of my colleagues who’ll have a hard time without my skill set, but I’m almost gleeful about how hard it’s going to be for the department to manage everything I’ve handled. It’s a problem of their own making.

      1. Cranberry*

        Frankly, “it’s a problem of their own making” is what we’re all saying too! For years everyone has been saying “Wow, everything would collapse if this person left”. And now it is.
        Unfortunately, all the problems will be created for other departments (me), and may not necessarily make it up to the powers that be, unless there is a huge catastrophe (which is actually a very real risk!).
        Our SME has been wonderful about tying up loose ends and making sure that her team at least knows what’s going on though, so at least we have that.

      2. SophieChotek*

        +1 to a problem of their own making – especially when you’ve tried to give them solutions.
        Hope your interviews go well and you can move on.

        1. Hiding From You*

          Just got the offer :)
          Cranberry, I feel for you. I hope that the power that be do see the issue and protect against it going forward. Best of luck to you working through it!!!
          I plan to do everything I can to set the team up to manage things. It’s the right thing to do, but as others have said, transferring so much institutional and technical knowledge is a huge challenge.

      3. Ann O.*

        I’m glad to read I’m not the only one who actively works to not be indispensable. In a lot of ways, I’ve been trying very hard to render my job unnecessary. I train; I document; I guide people one on one. But I’m still considered indispensable (although honestly, I think at this point that I’m not–I think people are just so used to having me as a resource that they undersell their own competency).

    6. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      Funnily enough, at OldJob I had a coworker win multi-millions in the Lottery. He also had institutional knowledge… but since it takes time to get the money and sort out taxes, etc., bosses immediately jumped on transitioning others.

    7. Office Plant*

      Two words. Knowledge management. Have people document what they do, and any information they use to do their jobs. That way it doesn’t disappear when they do. (And, ideally, others can benefit from it and contribute to it while they’re there, although that’s not always feasible.)

      1. Hiding from you*

        That’s great in theory, but it only works if the culture rewards self sufficiency. I’ve published reference materials out the wazoo, conducted countless training sessions. I still manage daily “emergencies” because people refuse to learn or look things up.

        1. tigerStripes*

          If I have a document that explains how to do something, if someone asks me, I send them the document and tell them where to check in the doc or send the doc and copy-paste the relevant part.

      2. Anon for This*

        Well, yes. This should be obvious but it isn’t. Furthermore, over time systems and procedures change. At OldJob we had an overworked employee who developed a bad attitude and who ended up being fired. During the time she was there she really didn’t have time to document everything she did, and after she was let go it was a mess for several months. It was one of those situations where they ended up having to hire two people to replace her, as well as having some of her work reassigned to other department members.

      3. Lablizard*

        That only works when it is simple processes that can be documented. If you rely on someone’s education and experience to do things like R&D, they can’t really documented how someone develops new process X or alters virus Y in a novel way.

        OldJob had a tendency to hire one person in each specialty and overload them with demands to invent the NEW!BIG! PATENTABLE!!!!!THING! Finally 4 of us had enough and told the upper management that they needed to hire 2-3 of us in each area or we were going to leave. They didn’t, we did (as did 3 others), and last I heard they sold off their patents and dissolved the company.

    8. A. Non*

      Hahahaha, this was me at OldJob. I actually did put some stuff together, buuuut OldGrandBoss was pretty nasty about me putting my notice in, so I took it with me after letting certain people know that I had documentation if they needed it or got shoved into my position. :)

      I hear that she finagled herself a raise not long after I left, and since then, OldJob has been losing people like rats from a sinking ship. It’s good times.

      1. Cranberry*

        She doesn’t even have another job lined up! So I think that says a lot.

        I’m pretty sure she feels like she won the Powerball though, in terms of getting out!

  12. Brianna*

    If you have an experienced worker as an intern (e.g. because they’ve had a career change), what are your expectations and would they differ to those you’d have for something fresh out of the education system?

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      So I think I’d be careful not to assume they’ll be aware of field-specific work norms – they may not be new to the workplace, but they won’t necessarily anticipate the ways in which things will differ.

      I actually think it might be a good idea to sit down with them and talk in detail about what they are expecting and look at how you can or can’t meet that.

      1. MuseumChick*

        This. Norms vary from industry to industry so being aware that they may not be aware of the norms you the industry they are going into is a good frame of mind.

    2. Lil Lamb*

      I’ve had about six different internships so I recognize that the more experience I received the higher the level of responsibility I was given (with of course there still be a learning curve that you would give any new employee).

      I would say the first difference is you can focus more on teaching norms for your industry/particular company than focusing on general working norms and that the work would be on a slightly higher level than an intern straight out of college.

    3. NotoriousMCG*

      As someone who just did an internship to try and make connections in a new city and gain experience in a specific type of role, my largest point of frustration was that I was never given higher-level work. They recognized that I was capable, they frequently showed their amazement at how quickly and well I did (very basic) tasks, but my supervisor wasn’t very experienced at being a supervisor so she would just send me home instead of giving me more, better tasks. Frequently I would prep something for next steps and even when I would explicitly ask if I could do the next steps as well, she’d say ‘Oh, it’s better if I do it!’ With no accompanying offer to let me observe, walk me through her reasoning, showing the end result of the prep work I’d done.

      All in all, if you’re not prepared to give this person more advanced work than what you would give a typical intern, it’s best to simply not hire them. The advice above about not assuming they know industry-specific norms is also very true and good to keep in mind, but also you should prepare for them to pick it up a lot quicker than other interns would.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think they would probably have tougher questions, they’d want more challenges and I would watch to see how fast they caught on so I could match them better.

      I am not sure these are expectations. I guess it is something I would consider as a real possibilities and I would try to prepare for these things.

  13. FDCA In Canada*

    As part of my job I collect resumes and pass them onto the hiring manager in question. So I’ll print all documents, and I’ll print the emails as well if there’s anything related in there (like a cover paragraph), and while usually things are fairly low-quality, I think I received the nadir this week.

    Subject line “Heyyyy” and the total contents of the email “Heyyy i seen the application here is my resume Luv to hear back from ya thxxx :) :) :)”

    The attached resume was also not spectacular.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        I want to reply with one of those elaborate pictures made out of punctuation marks.

        /\ /\
        o o

    6. Jadelyn*

      Please tell me it came from a ridiculous email address too – like “TRUCKNUTZ69@[provider].com” or something?

      Because I got a resume from an email address like that once. The resume was pretty standard, but that email address in all caps at the top was pretty double-take-inducing!

      1. FDCA In Canada*

        Most of the email addresses I get are reasonably normal, if not super professional–I mean, “Habsfan67” isn’t super professional, but it’s not like, crude, or anything–but one of the weirdest things I have noticed is the proliferation of odd display names. If your email address is normal but the display name isn’t “Jane Doe” but rather “The Mystical Mermaid,” or “Super Shark,” it’s going to raise a lot of eyebrows.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Oh man, yes. I think my favorite was someone whose email address was totally normal, but the display name was “Your New Rockstar!” or something like that. He clearly thought a great deal of himself. He did not, in fact, even get an interview.

      2. Whats In A Name*

        OMG I used to teach a freshman seminar class and I would spend an entire 50 minute class each semester on why “bootyliciousgurl69@ or “sweetdick69@…” were not a professional email address. Sometimes they never got it and years later I’d get a request for a letter of rec from bootyliciousgurl69.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Lol! Like. People. If you wouldn’t want your boss calling you by that name in the hallways at work, it’s not appropriate for an email address you’re applying to jobs with.

    7. Jadelyn*

      Also, forgot to add – at least they attached a resume at all! I get applicants sometimes who just say “I’m interested in X position please call me at 123-4567” like. How nice for you! If you’d attached your resume like we asked, maybe we’d be willing to call you! But since you didn’t bother, we’re not going to bother, either.

      1. Audiophile*

        That’s like people who respond to dating profiles or personal ads with “u sound interesting, txt me at 212-555-6583.”

    8. Letters*

      My favorite along that vein was someone who used hot pink comic sans .. and a sparkle animated gif of their signature. Not so much printable but still hilarious horrifying.

      1. Jadelyn*

        I wish I still had a screenshot of the worst resume I ever got. It was all in Comic Sans, littered with clipart – weird stuff like cartoon characters and corporate logos, why??? nobody knows! – and with different combinations of highlighting and text colors (yellow on blue, pink on green, red on yellow, etc.) that changed at random throughout the document. Like not even predictably at every sentence or paragraph. Seemingly just whenever inspiration had struck.

        The applicant wasn’t grossly unqualified, but suffice to say they didn’t move forward. Someone who sent a less eye-hemorrhage-inducing resume did.

        1. Spice for this*

          This “eye-hemorrhage-inducing resume” caused me lots of laughter and tears! Thank you.

        3. Letters*

          That’s amazing! Back in retail, I had someone that filled one out in red crayon — at the time that was my worst, but I think yours wins!

      2. Dizzy Steinway*

        Someone went to the Elle Woods school of resumes – without perfumed paper, screen sparkle is the next worst thing. Except it’s worse.

    10. Margali*

      Reminds me of the email I received the other day. I sent out our form (basic, but polite) decline letter to an applicant. Received this email back: “Whatever.”

      And yes, that email got attached to her name in our application tracking system, so it will come up again if she ever applies another time.

    11. Band geek*

      When my son first started applying for jobs, an online application asked for a cover letter. He put “Hire me. I need a job.” and submitted it. (He was 16)
      I gently explained what was meant by a cover letter. (This was before I’d discovered AAM). He’s much better now.

    12. Chaordic One*

      This was one of my old job duties. As part of their applications they were asked to attach a resume and to include a spreadsheet. Nearly all of the applicants were college graduates, but I was amazed at the sheer variety of different word processing programs and formats that were sent to me. Sometimes I had to get I.T. to help me open them so I could print them out for the people who would actually do the hiring. Occasionally I would reformat something by eliminating blocks of blank space, just so it would fit on a single page, but I never touched text.

      The spreadsheets were supposed to record experience, and list dates and specific training. The applicants frequently never considered that they would be printed out at some time and they were often unwieldy. If I printed them out, a single page might take 8 or 10 pages of paper. I kind of gave up on printing the large ones out and would just forward the attachment to the hiring manager.

      Now, when I apply for jobs, everything I send by email (applications, resumes, cover letters and references), I send as PDFs.

  14. Law Lub*

    I started a law firm job in late December and just got assigned to be a support staffer in a particular department in February.

    I’m young (25) and have already had three full time jobs since graduating college. The third is my current job. I left my first job as a department assistant because I wanted to have experience with more substantial work in the legal industry before law school. I was let go from my second job, where I worked for 3 months in an extremely stressful and overwhelming environment.

    I applied to this third job, which was advertised as one that would allow me to build on my administrative skills, but would also allow me to contribute more substantial, hands-on work.

    I know I’m only 4 months into this job, and only nearly 2 months into working with my specific department, but from what I see, it will be very hard for me to get work beyond administrative tasks. In the meantime, I’ve seen an opening for a paralegal job in my company in a similar department, and paralegals at this law firm get very good experience and are typically in the same situation I am in (looking to move on to law school later on).

    I keep following up with my manager about how to get more substantial work, as it is part of my official job description, but she has so far come up with nothing and insists I should just wait on it.

    Should I wait? Do I apply for the paralegal job (it’s been posted for a while so I’m not even sure how active it is)? How can I get more work? I have more experience than most paralegals at the firm, yet I am stuck doing secretarial tasks in my position.

    Please help me. My days are filled with staring at an inactive Outlook inbox and going above and beyond simple tasks I am given (at most) every other day. Tasks have so far up to 30 minutes to complete and my peers usually take hours. I offer to help out, but people are possessive of their work and seem not to like new people (most staff assistants have been here for 15+ years).

    Thank you, and thank you for all of your great posts. Any advice would be appreciated. I already feel hopeless the second I walk into the building.

    1. Temperance*

      I do not recommend applying for the paralegal posting. It would be one thing if you came in as a paralegal, but it doesn’t look great for you to try and step up in that way so quickly.

      Secretarial work can be really boring and dreadful, especially at a law firm. You’re also going to be seen as an interloper just because of your young age and relative inexperience. Do your job, and do it well, and then maybe see what else you can take on.

      2. Future Analyst*

        Agreed, plus in some (many?) companies, you have to be in your current position for at least 6 months before they’ll even consider you for a transfer. Hang in there! I’ve been there (secretarial at law firm, itching to do actual work), and my best advice is to do a hell of a job in your current position, and then use that to justify a move up when the time comes.

      3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Also, don’t you need a paralegal certification or the like to even be eligible to apply?

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Yup. Evil Law Firm where I used to work would train paralegals on the job – no certificate or degree required.

    2. Naruto*

      I think you’re too new to apply for the paralegal job. It’s not likely to reflect well on you given this timeline, and because it’s internal, that could affect your standing at the firm.

    3. Law Lub*

      Thanks for the replies everyone. I see how applying would basically give me some bad blood in the firm. Is there anything I can do so that I can show my interest in doing billable/research based work? The nature of my position is that it is suppose to be bth adminand paralegal-esque. I am allowed to input billable time. However, I and one other person were the first two external hires for this relatively new, hybrid position and people are used to viewing it as “secretarial”. The new hire and I are both young, interested in law school, and eager to get our feet wet with billables. The requirement for our education was also more on par with paralegals.

      1. Jadelyn*

        The phrase “Is there anything I can help you with/Can I help you with that?” is going to be your best friend. That’s how I took a part-time data entry and filing job and turned it into something that, while still called HR Assistant, is much closer in actual work to an HRIS Analyst or HR Administrator.

        Caveat, of course, that it depends on the people you ask that question of being willing to actually respond with delegating tasks. And that part, you can’t control. I got lucky with coworkers whose response was “Sure, let me show you how I do XYZ.” The more specific you can be, the better – “Would you like me to do [specific task] for [specific case]?” will probably get you better results than “Is there anything I can do to help with your current cases?” If you wanted to preface it with something that indicates you already know what needs doing, like “The [specific case] reminds me of [some other similar thing I’ve done], would you like me to do [related task] for that?”

        But in the end, it comes down to people being willing to hand you work, and that’s unfortunately out of your control.

        1. Naruto*

          Also, pay attention. If something looks like paralegal work that you think you could handle, suggest that task, specifically. It’s a lot harder to come up with something in response to “is there anything I can do?” than in response to “can I do this specific task to help out?”

        2. nhbillups*

          I would also ask manager if there’s anyone you could “shadow”, or watch, or tag along with during your down time. That way she doesn’t have to come up with things to fill your time, really, and you still get to learn. I’ve done a LOT of that in my current workplace.

      2. Lablizard*

        You could ask if after, say, your first 6 months or year or whenever you have been there long enough to invest in, if the firm would pay for you to get a paralegal certification. Then, when you are done, you are well placed to move into the area you want to.

    4. Law Lub*

      Also not sure if relevant, but I do plan on going to law school soon (like when I’m 26), and I think most paralegal jobs here make you commit to 2 years. What attracted me to this current position is that I don’t have that 2 year requirement while allowing me get my hands on more substantial work

      1. Chriama*

        Rather than applying for the job, maybe bring up the posting with your manager and ask if you could take on some of the tasks of that position? If there isn’t enough work for you to do in your current role then maybe you can split your time between the 2 roles?

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I would not do this in a law firm. It’s not going to go over well and will look like you think you’re too good to do administrative work. And to be really honest, finding a meticulous and proactive admin is very hard—so doing well in that role for at least a year will be helpful.

          1. Temperance*

            Oh yes, this. 10000x over.

            It will look like you took the admin job to get your foot in the door, and now that you’re in, you want out of the admin job.

  15. LQ*

    I need some thoughts. I’m going to a conference for work next week and first, travel tips or packing tips. It’s the first one where I’m going with other people from work that’s a travel to conference.

    Second is the …interpersonal part of this. There are 2 groups and me going (each group is 2 or 3 people…but they are distinct groups) I will, at some point in the next few months, be moving into a job where I’m going to be the bridge between these two groups. I need to impress both of them. One half really only cares if you are smart and doing stuff quickly to help them. The other half only cares if you are their friend and are nice to them. Unsurprisingly these two groups do NOT get along. The Friendly group thinks the Smarts group is mean and the Smarts group thinks the Friendly group is stupid. They are fairly friendly, and I’m an outsider. This will be very new to the Friendly group (which I’m nominally a part of because of my job) and mostly old hat information to the Smarts group (which I’m much more like in personality and somewhat skills). (They aren’t throwing, yelling, or sniping at each other, just working far far below what they should be able to be working at because of this conflict.)

    Any words of wisdom?

    1. Dawn*

      Roll your clothes (you can fit more in your suitcase that way), put anything that might spill into a ziploc bag (nothing worse than getting there and realizing your clothes are all covered in face wash), wear comfy shoes for traveling!

      As for the two groups, my honest recommendation is to read “How To Win Friends and Influence People” and then use those techniques on the people in both groups. That book helped me so much (and it was recommended here on AAM!) to realize the best way to get to know people and really connect with them.

      1. LQ*

        Great tips thank you. And I’ll add the book to my list, but I don’t think I’ll get to it by next week. Though I imagine it will be really helpful going forward.

    2. a big fish in a very small pond*

      I’d take the opportunity to seek group members from each group that seem more moderate and outliers (if there are any in either group) and start there to start building an friendly coalition of reasonable people for long-term support.

      My first impression reading your post is that the Smarts vs the Friendlies feels too black and white and it is likely that there are members of both groups who feel as though they personally are both smart and friendly and probably enjoy the in-group dynamics, but would really rather be seen and respected as being both.

      1. LQ*

        That sounds like a good strategy. I think part of this is getting myself over some of these things. (One of the people in the Friendlies group…I do not feel confident in her skills, I know her manager doesn’t, I know the person who will be my boss doesn’t, I know none of the Smarts do…and that’s kind of a hard hurdle to climb, so I’m working on that, but it’s hard.)

    3. fposte*

      Ask them questions and then listen more than talk. Being listened to is something that pleases people in both those categories–the Friendlies think it means you like them and the Smarts think it means you’re paying attention to the information.

      1. LQ*

        This is perfect advice. I can absolutely do this. (And my voice has been gone for a while, so it will be better for me anyway, and I can lean on that if people ask why I’m not talking much.) This is great, thank you!

    4. Tuckerman*

      Ah. It sounds like the friendlys are relationship oriented and the smarts are task oriented. I’m task oriented. I value efficiency and accuracy. My colleague is relationship oriented. She values inclusiveness and team building. It’s not that I don’t value those things, it’s just that they’re secondary in my interactions. Just like she values efficiency and accuracy, but secondary to the relationship. She was pretty wary of me at first. So I would chat with her about camping, traveling, other things we have in common, before asking the work-related question. She’s now a good friend.

      1. LQ*

        This is absolutely it from what I can tell. I’m much more task oriented myself, but I think I’m expected to try to bring balance to the group as a whole. It helps to think of it like this. Task vs relationship. Thank you.

    5. MsMaryMary*

      Bring outfits you can layer. It is a truth universally acknowledged that the meeting rooms at conferences are always freezing cold. Bring a sweater or jacket with you even if you don’t think you’ll need it.

      1. Shrinkydinks*

        I prefer to bring a shopping bag or something similar to put my dirty clothes in so I can just dump them in the laundry when I get home. And I can’t say enough about bringing a battery charger. If you use your phone a lot, not all airports will have a number of outlets for you to use.

        1. LQ*

          Oh this is handy. And yes, battery charger. I’ve got 3, 2 “big” ones and a little one that’s always in my purse, but I do need to make sure they are all fully charged up. A dead battery is useless.

    6. Letters*

      Put drier sheets in your shoes if you pack any in your suitcase. :) This will keep the whole suitcase smelling fresh, and rubbing dryer sheets on clothing can sometimes get wrinkles out. If you do have wrinkles, hang the garments on the outside of the shower curtain when you shower — that can often loosen the wrinkles.

      Pack extra empty ziplock bags. I always need them for something or other.

      When trying to get in good with any group like this, make sure you don’t turn down any offer to spend time with either, and be upfront about the fact that you’re going to need to get along with everybody! Do NOT, even if there’s a great temptation to do so, bad mouth either group when you’re with the other. Things like, “Oh, I don’t like to talk badly of anyone!” will reflect better on you than engaging in badmouthing — which would leave them wondering what you’re saying to the other group when you’re with them.

      Granted, this doesn’t mean you can’t listen or sympathize — “I can imagine that would be frustrating!” and suchlike could get you a long way, and they could have grains of truth in their warnings. You just don’t want to contribute yourself.

    7. Antilles*

      A few business travel tips:
      1.) Bring at least one extra day’s of clothes. Yes, your conference has a set timeline and yes your flight is already scheduled and plenty of other reasons. But do it anyways as a precaution in case there’s a snowstorm or you spill something on your shirt or you split a seam on your pants or etc.
      2.) If you aren’t sure of the dress code, try to find out by asking colleagues or by trying to look up photos online of last year’s conference. If you still can’t figure it out, it’s worth noting that if you find your clothes don’t quite match the level of ‘dressiness’, it’s usually easier to make formal clothes more ‘casual’ (by unbuttoning a top button or rolling up sleeves or something) than it is to make casual clothes ‘dressier’.
      3.) Make sure to allow adequate time after the conference to get to the airport. Remember that this needs to include time to go back to your room to get your suitcase, check out at the same time all other attendees are also checking out, and get a cab/train/etc to the airport at the same time all other attendees are also looking for the same thing. So you probably don’t want to schedule your flight for right after the conference ends; in fact, it’s often good to give yourself several hours just in case the last speaker drones on or there are delays.
      4.) If it’s a city/place you’ve never been to and want to visit, don’t hesitate to ask if you can extend your stay at your own cost (make sure to add that last part). Most companies are pretty flexible with this as long as you use up your own vacation to do so (if need be) and it doesn’t notably affect their out-of-pocket costs. Might be a little late to do this for a trip next week, but something to consider for the future.
      5.) Know your company’s policy on meals, reimbursement, etc. Companies often have a slightly different policy for conferences than they would for regular travel, under the assumption that you’ll be entertaining/meeting clients. This is particularly relevant if you plan on drinking, because it’s fairly common for companies to treat bills involving alcohol different than normal.

    8. Argh!*

      Let me guess — Sales vs. engineering? It’s a classic dichotomy. Since they are in silos they can’t relate to each other. If you can find a way to form teams or working groups or even just discussions where each will benefit from the input of the other to make a greater good, that will help them get out of their provincialism. If both personality types weren’t essential to the success of the organization, there would only be one type there!

    10. Margali*

      Rats, I think my comment went to review because of the link in it. Anyway, try searching this site for the post with an “interview with an incredibly diplomatic person.” There was great advice in there for smoothing the work process between task-oriented and relationship-oriented people.

    11. Havarti*

      Packing tips! I’ve lived out of one suitcase for a few of two-week-long trainings while my coworkers were all lugging 2 or 3 suitcases. I’m a woman so some of this may not apply to you if you’re a guy.

      – Limit your shoes. No, seriously. Shoes take up a lot of space. I pack 1 pair of comfy work shoes that will match all my outfits (black since most of my pants are black or gray). If it’s warm enough, I travel with these comfy Teva active sandals that I can walk miles in and are easy to remove at the airport. Otherwise, I wear sneakers. Pack a pair of flip-flops for lounging around your hotel room. They’re fairly flat so they won’t take up much room and you can get fancy looking ones with rhinestones if you want to wear them outside. One co-worker though brought like 7 pairs!

      – Clothes for both work and evening. I managed to make everything fit in one suitcase because I didn’t pack two outfits for each day. All the work tops I brought with me looked just as good with capris or shorts as they did with slacks. So I just wore the same shirt for the whole day. I pre-planned all my outfits and only added a couple of extra tops in case I spilled something on me. I also packed lots of polyester to limit wrinkles and immediately hung all my clothes up when I got to my hotel room (though I had to ask the hotel for extra hangers). This also meant I didn’t have to do laundry until I was home. Include a sweater that will match whatever you wear to stay warm. Match jewelry to your outfits and pack sets in separate baggies so you don’t have to dig through a pile in the morning.

      – Play Tetris with the suitcase. You may find new ways of making things fit. My suitcase has a long narrow mesh pocket on one side that I discovered is perfect for storing my underwear. I rolled up the bras and panties and tucked them in alternating so all I had to do was open the pocket a bit to grab the next clean set. Small trash bags or grocery bags are perfect for holding dirty clothes. All the toiletries go in a small separate bag that I then keep in the bathroom. All my chargers/earbuds go in a little drawstring bag.

      – Simplify. I carry on the plane a messenger bag that fits a flat purse I use only for traveling. I also have a smaller travel wallet where I only pack the essentials and leave all the store reward cards etc. at home. I also pack snacks like beef jerky and sweets to eat while on the flight and if I get hungry late at night in my hotel room. And don’t forget some gum or mints.

      – Tip the cleaning staff. You should tip your room cleaning staff a few bucks on a daily basis rather than a lump sum at the end of your stay as the staff may change. I didn’t learn that until later but I try to be generous.

      – Water! I find I have trouble staying hydrated on trips. The bottled water they put in fancy hotel rooms are horribly expensive. In a fit of thirst, I broke into one and regretted it. On the last two trips, I went to the trouble of finding a nearby store and getting a pack of bottled water. Yes, it was a pain to haul but it meant I had plenty of water in my room and could even share with my coworkers.

      I could probably write more but I’ll stop there.

      1. misspiggy*

        You are a packing genius. I thought I was pretty good but I have learned much from you!

      2. vpc*

        Water bottle: I put mine, empty, in my carry on to go through airport security, and then fill it from the water fountain in the terminal. I carry it throughout the conference and refill from icewater jugs or taps. Saves on plastic bottles, and mixing up my plastic bottle with the eleventy-billion that look exactly the same is no longer a problem!

        Also on the subject of beverages: almost all hotel rooms, no matter the price point, will have a coffee pot in the room. If you like a particular type of coffee or tea, bring it with you! The one challenge here is if you like regular brewed coffee and the hotel’s pot is a single-cup (keurig or similar). You can use the single-cuppers to just brew hot water for tea but I don’t think you could do your own coffee with them unless you also brought a french press.

    12. A. Non*

      1) A millionty plus the rolling things to pack them. If you’re staying at a hotel, call ahead and see if they have laundry facilities on hand and how much they cost, and/or if they have an iron. You may not need it but it’s great to know about just in case.
      2) Third/Fourth/whatever numbering at the dryer sheets, ziploc bags, plastic bags for dirty clothes. These are invaluable, for real.
      3) Mix-n-match. Make sure everything you bring matches everything else, so if you absolutely have to you can get dressed in the dark and you’ll look smart.
      3b) Make sure your PJs or loungewear is PG, just in case of midnight fire alarms. No one wants to see someone with it all hanging out in the middle of the night, even in case of an emergency.
      4) Seconding the listening. Also, make sure to remember everyone’s name (if you can) and/or something about them. If someone in the Smarts LOVES Dr. Who, know that. We all like someone who likes what we like, at least at first, and that can get you through the initial ‘getting to know this person’ period.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        Make sure all your clothes coordinate. For example I pack a navy 3 piece suit and tops which have blue in them. I also have a pair of folding ballet/pilates slippers which I wear in my hotel room and if I am going down to the lobby bar or breakfast.

    13. rubyrose*

      Think about what you absolutely must have if your bag gets lost and finding replacements would be time consuming and/or difficult. Makeup, for example. Put just a little in a small container (check out the travel section at the Container Store) and put that in your quart sized baggie to take through airport security.

  16. Audiophile*

    First week in my new job! It was a shortened week with the blizzard, the office was closed on Tuesday and I ended up missing Wednesday.

    Today’s commute was not great, I tried to take an earlier train, but that train promptly broke down after we all boarded. Thankfully, there was another train to GCT about 10 minutes later.

    Loving the new job so far, it’s much more structured. Everyone is very nice!

    Happy St. Patty’s Day!

  17. anon for this*

    My boss told my coworkers about my learning disability without my permission. Is this illegal in the US?

  18. Andrea Heymont*

    I’m 41, and have been working in retail for 23 years, but I want to make a career change. I have been working on getting my Bachelor’s degree in English, off and on, for several years, and am now in my second-to-last semester. The original plan was to go on to get a Master’s in Library Science, but the job description for a librarian has changed so much these days that I am not sure that that it is the right option for me anymore. Any suggestions for what I can use my Bachelor’s for, in moving forward to a new career?

    1. MuseumChick*

      Have you done any internships/volunteer work in a library to see if you would like it? I would start there, lots of volunteer work to get a sense of what you would enjoy doing and make contacts with people who can help you figure that out.

      A couple of careers that come to mind: Librarian, Archivist, Legal Librarian, Editor, and Social Media Manager are all areas where a English degree would be useful.

      1. Andrea Heymont*

        Thanks. I actually do have an internship to do as part of my degree. I’ll look into that.

        1. Law Lub*

          The Library Science Degree has been changing a lot over the last few years, so a lot of people in your field are in the same boat (including younger, fresh out of college grads), so don’t feel to lost. I would look at interning, as has been already advised, but also look at the possibility of working at your university’s library part-time. I did that in college (just for cash) and was given the opportunity to work in all of the lib departments.

          1. Andrea Heymont*

            That sounds good. My first thought was to talk to them, so thank you for the reinforcement.

    2. AliceW*

      With a BA in English you can work almost anywhere. I work in finance and there are dozens of co-workers, including some in the C-suite, I know who have liberal arts degrees that work in finance. You can try temping at various places and see if any place interests you. That’s how I fell into my profession. And I never went back for any additional degrees. Don’t limit yourself and think a BA in English means you need to be a writer, librarian, teacher etc. I write as a hobby but make a good salary working for an investment firm.

    3. Another Academic Librarian*

      Would you be willing to share what originally attracted you to library work?

      1. Dreaming of summer*

        I’m curious, too. I’ve been an academic librarian 20 years and it hasn’t changed that much.

    4. ChemMoose*

      I have a friend who got her degree in English and works now in Insurance and loves it. I think the position is like assistant underwriter? She said being open to various positions and knowing what the position actually entitles is super important. (Other interviewees hadn’t even looked up the position name in Wiki, and thought the position was more glamorous than it was…) But being on this website probably already has you ready for applying.

      Good luck!

  19. KiteFlier*

    How would you convey an unfinished degree on a resume? There is plenty of relevant work experience, but they did not complete their degree and they’re not so far into their career that people won’t question leaving it off. The major is irrelevant to current work experience and future career path.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Is it a degree that is still being worked towards, or is completion of the degree something that’s been abandoned? If the former I would write “In Progress” in lieu of a graduation date. If it’s the latter, I would be inclined to just leave it off.

    4. Tim W*

      I finished a BA (theater) before going back for a separate BS (comp sci). The second degree refused to accept transfer of any of my GenEd credits from my first degree. After an internship turned into a job offer, I finished all of my major coursework but dropped the degree program before finishing the mandatory electives. I use:

      “College Name (dates) / Completed all major coursework for BS Comp Sci. No degree awarded.” Most people are smart enough to figure it out. If they ask in an interview, I explain as above. Has never been an issue for me so far.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      This is a good question. I started something relevant to what I want to do, but I couldn’t finish it due to financial constraints and I’m not going back. I guess it would be better just to leave it off, but I have school projects that show I kind of know what I’m doing. So should I even bother?

    6. CrazyEngineerGirl*

      I left a PhD program 4 years in because my life was a mess and frankly I hated it. Currently my resume says something like:

      School Name, 20XX-20XX
      Degree Not Attained
      Completed X semesters

      I’ve changed and moved around the ‘Degree Not Attained’ note several times because it seems like no matter what some people read that and think I have or am still working on my PhD. I would LOVE to take it off but it would leave a pretty big 4-5 year gap after my master’s degree. Sigh.

      1. Adjunct Gal*

        I have had ‘no degree’ on mine, and the years. I do like your wording better, but I agree that’s it still feels problematic.

  20. Dawn*

    I’VE GOT AN IN-PERSON INTERVIEW NEXT WEEK FOR A FANTASTIC JOB!!!

    I just wanted to thank Alison and everyone here, especially all you regular commenters who I read every week, for all of the encouraging thoughts and the advice and the “you can do it” attitude! I’ve been lurking a lot recently but I’m still reading every single post and comment.

    I am so happy about this interview- the two phone screens went really well, and I *know* I would rock this job if I got it and I have a very strong background for it. But honestly, even if I don’t get it… someone likes me! Someone sees my value! Unlike my current employer who has given me zero feedback for the past two years except “By the way, you didn’t notice this one tiny thing this one time, that’s BAD and you should FEEL BAD and DON’T DO IT AGAIN.”

    So, as I’ve said to people before, *THINGS WILL GET BETTER*!!!!

    4. Frustrated Optimist*

      Without getting too specific, I can relate to several points in this post. So I want to say congratulations on getting the interview, and also, please comment back next week and let us know how it went. =)

  21. Dee-Nice*

    A few years back, in another job, I was disciplined for something unfairly, IMO. Nothing I can do about it now, but I’ve often thought back on it and wondered if there was anything I could have done differently. Would be curious to hear the thoughts of commenters here.
    I was in a staff-wide meeting and the president of my company was giving a talk. One of my teammates, seated at the table a few chairs away from me (we were facing front, so I couldn’t really see her because of the people between us), had her scarf around her neck and coming up over part of her face. It was always FREEZING in our building, so this wasn’t an unusual thing for her to do. Some people across the table thought it looked like she was asleep from the way she was sitting and her scarf, so they started whisper-giggling and taking phone photos. It was appallingly rude and unprofessional.
    The room was full (chairs and standing room—all packed), so there was nowhere for me to move. I couldn’t walk out of the meeting because the president was talking. I tried to ignore the people around me and stared straight ahead to make it clear that I was paying attention to the presentation. However, several people, seeing that part of my team was involved in the disruption, reported my whole team and the people on the other side of the table for inappropriate behavior. I made it clear to our supervisor, separately, that I was not involved in what happened, and my teammates confirmed that. Although no one accused me specifically of anything, the supervisors of the two teams decided that since they weren’t there to see what happened, everyone from both teams had to show up to a meeting and get sternly talked to for what turned out to be 90 minutes. At no point did anyone say, “Dee-Nice was not involved in this, why is she here?” which I wasn’t *really*expecting, but I felt like everyone involved knew that I shouldn’t be there and I was resentful nonetheless. I mostly remained silent during the meeting.
    We weren’t written up, but I was (quietly) cranky about the whole thing for a long time, and still am whenever I remember it. (Yeah, I hold grudges, and that’s a separate issue.) Could I have done something differently either in the moment or after? Or is this just something to file away to the Things That Are Screwed Up folder?

      1. Dee-Nice*

        I understand that impulse, but I was afraid of saying something at the time because the room was otherwise so quiet it may have been even more disruptive for me to say something. Also, there were more senior-level people there who clearly noticed what was going on and weren’t saying anything, so I would have felt weird for that reason as well.

    2. LCL*

      The company wasted the time of two groups for 90 minutes to lecture them? That’s a warped sense of priorities right there. Whoever made that decision was pissed, and wasn’t thinking clearly enough to bother with figuring out who did what. So yeah, it wasn’t about you, it was about a psycho manager. Is the company still in business?

      1. Dee-Nice*

        Yeah, they’re still in business. I actually think everyone higher up was acting with best intentions and the meeting was intended to spare us from more punitive measures. BUT it was confusing at the time and because it it does sort of mentally loop back up on me occasionally, I wondered if I might have a blind spot about what I could have done differently.

    3. Antie*

      I, too, have had odd experiences nag at me for years, and I have been surprised later in life that the experience was useful in another context. If you end up in management, for example, there will be times your intentions will be misconstrued and people on your staff will be annoyed and there is nothing you can do about it because the situation requires discretion. Also, there are lessons here about when do you dob in your teammates and when do you just suck it up and take the punishment alongside them. It’s a judgment you have to make, and thinking about this experience will help you make a more informed judgment if something similar happens again.

      Also, sometimes there is no right thing to do. Try not to beat yourself up for a situation you could not control.

      1. Dee-Nice*

        Thanks. Yeah, I’m sure there was stuff going on that I wasn’t aware of, but it felt strange to just be kind of swept along by the whole thing regardless of my lack of involvement. Obviously I chose to go with it more or less, but sometimes people here are really good at pointing out things others have missed, so I thought I’d see what they had to say.

    4. Loud Sneezer*

      It was not about you. If they started trying to leave people out, that would mean a whole witch hunt about who was talking and who wasn’t, with different opinions, people tattling, people lying, whatever. If they pull in two whole groups, then it’s just a generic thing, they’ve covered the issue, they’ve made sure the people who needed to be there were there and they convey that they are serious about this. Even worse than wasting your time? Not addressing it at all.

      There may also have been other, private conversations for the ringleaders, in which case they were making sure anyone else knew that this was not okay. Because just being exposed and sitting there might give some people the idea that “Talky McTalkerson did that in the last meeting and it was fine,” and they might do it the next time.

      It’s generally just easier to apply everything to everyone in a job. You don’t say “Dee-Nice is always good about time, so she doesn’t have to punch a clock,” or “Dee-Nice is honest so she doesn’t have to carry a badge.” This was “We want to make sure anyone who was in a position where they might have participated knows this wasn’t okay.”

      1. Dee-Nice*

        Clock punching and badge carrying are perhaps not quite apt as comparisons because those are neutral requirements, not things you’re generally asked to do as a punishment. In this case, the two teams (about 7-8 people total from a meeting of maybe 45 people?) were called into a separate meeting to discuss this specific instance of bad behavior, so there was a degree of targeting as well, and not a general, widespread reminder. BUT, I also see your point that trying to weed out who did what could have gotten witch-hunty and the managers had to make decisions about how far to go with that. I guess I can chalk this up to bad luck/being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Perhaps it wasn’t quite fair to me, but maybe it was as fair as it could have been in those circumstances. I’m starting to think it upset me so much in part because I had a kind of proximity embarrassment about the whole thing– it mortified me to be affiliated with the incident in any way, but probably no one else was thinking about it like that. It wasn’t about me, as you say. Thanks for these thoughts.

    5. nhbillups*

      I would have given the look of “WHAT is going on over there?” to the rude people disrupting the meeting. And let me just say that I am one of five kids, my mother is a lifelong teacher, and I have children myself…I am rather good at that look, so they would have very clearly gotten the message!

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Yeah something like this would frost me, too.

      There’s a few things here.

      I tend to think, when there is no apparent way to stand up for myself effectively then I pretty much have to suck it up. I really don’t see what you could have done differently.

      Situations like this remind me of past situations. I can remember in grammar school being yelled at by nuns almost daily. On a good day, I could comfort myself by saying, “I did not do that, so therefore they are not yelling at me.” On a not so good day, I’d think, “When I get older I am not going to put up with being unfairly accused and lumped in with others.”

      Going in a different direction, sometimes when I find myself with 5 pounds of annoyance over a 13 ounce situation, I ask myself why. The answer usually has something to do with the big picture and how many other things are wrong in the big picture. The current annoyance is the straw that broke the camel’s back for me.

      After having some different jobs under my belt, I would now say that these bosses had no idea how to manage people. Ninety minutes of group lecturing? Really? Maybe it’s wrong of me, but stuff like this has shaped me into THAT person who will interrupt the speaker and say, “I’m sorry we can’t hear you over here.” I am totally sick of the crap some bosses pull simply because THEY CAN. If I think something is going to bite me later, I try to speak up now.

  22. Emmi*

    Not sure if this is a weird question, but something I’ve wondered: those ‘work from home for $somuchmoneyperweek’ ads, what do they usually end up being? I’ve never considered them since they seem like (and probably are) scams, but has anyone – even just out of curiosity – responded to one? Are they usually stuff like cold-calling sales or pyramid schemes?

    1. SophieChotek*

      I’ve heard sometimes they are stuffing envelopes, but the rate is based on how fast you can stuff envelopes and prepare mailings and since the bar is so high to get the amazing amount, no one could really earn it. That’s what I’ve heard…not done it though.

    2. Andy*

      they are approximately this:
      a person tells you to do a thing and you ill get paid x via wire transfer. This happens moer or less the way it should, establishing ‘honesty’
      you are asked to do another thing
      the third or fourth thing you are to do is write a check and deposit it into an account and you will be refunded via wire transfer plus your ‘pay’
      the check you deposit it cashed, you are not reimbursed, you are not paid, now they have your bank account routing info.
      The End.

      1. Lilian*

        That sounds like a straight-out scam, not just a job scam.

        I remember in my first year of uni calling about a job that was labeled as ‘funds transfers’. The guy I spoke to said it involved having someone transfer some money into your bank account, and you transferring it onto another bank account but keeping a percentage of it for yourself as a ‘fee’.

        Even as a first year I was like “…err, that’s money-laundering’. Not sure how they could’ve thought people wouldn’t question it.

        1. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

          Sadly, an out of work acquaintance fell for a variation of this scam, the “secret shopper” one. She ended up owing her bank several thousands of dollars. They were very unsympathetic and basically told her not to be so gullible.

    3. NaoNao*

      Other options would be doing menial, repetitive labor online (research tests, filling out forms, things like that), collections from home (an option, really!), cold-calling sales, or a scam where someone is looking for a “personal assistant” (I did respond to one of these that seemed only very slightly shady and I still recall the anger I felt when I got the responding obviously scammy email, which was like “I’ll need you at short notice, must have clean driving record”–all that was to distract from the fact that he was “wiring” me money. I wrote back a scathing email but strangely, never heard back/s/).

    4. copy run start*

      My parents legitimately work from home selling infomercial-type stuff. It sounds like hell to me though.

      Most other stuff is a scam. When I graduated college I had trouble finding ANY work, so I responded to an admin assistant Craigslist ad. Lo and behold this person wanted me to print off and mail checks for them! And yes, he was a professor located in Nigeria. That was the last time I used Craigslist for job searching.

    5. Chaordic One*

      Years I ago I responded to an ad for a “Marketing Assistant” where you could earn big bucks. I think I was expecting it to be telemarketing or something like that. When I showed up, it was a huge cattle call style interview with about 50 people where everyone was herded into a large room and given a presentation. It turned out that they wanted people to sell fake “smells like” perfumes to other people in the parking lots of grocery stores and shopping centers. After we figured out what it was all about most of us left, but there were still about 10 people left.

      After that I have run into people trying to sell me perfume in parking lots. Sometimes the store security guards come around and make them leave. Kind of a horrible job, if I say so myself.

  23. Biff*

    I am really, really skeeved this morning. I am trying to keep busy while I’m technically unemployed by subbing at the local district. I’ve made it really clear I’m not prepared to take on special ed (I feel that with the current rules in place, it is NOT safe for the subs, I’m not trained to deal with it, and even if it was, I am fairly convinced I wouldn’t be able to control my startle reaction if I were bitten or hit. I’m not interested in being scared to the point of hurting a kid.) I have explained my concerns multiple times to the district, and they still call me about taking on special ed classes. I feel like I’m dealing with two things — they are in a bind, so they are calling anyone, but two…. they think that if they keep asking, eventually I’ll give in. That seems really disrespectful and kind of creepy to me.

    I’m concerned if I make it clear that I won’t take special ed, that they may not give me anything else either. Any suggestions?

    1. SophieChotek*

      I could be wrong, but a friend of mine did this and she said for special ed, they were still had trained paras in the room to deal with the special needs/special ed students. The sub was there more to fulfill the requirement of a licsenced teacher. And I did get the impression a significant amount of her sub calls were special ed. That might be true in your district– have you asked or been told you would be alone without further assistance?

      But I hear you, I would not feel qualified or prepared to work with special ed. (Actually I don’t think I’m prepared to work with non-special ed students either…)

      1. Parenthetically*

        It’s true that there should always be a para/TA (or several, depending on the classroom) in the room. Still! My mother taught Life Skills/SLIC for years and it’s just incredibly intense. Teaching there is a calling for sure.

      2. Biff*

        I do think that my district has an unusually high need of special ed teachers. They seem to use them in a multitude of settings. Some are one on one, some are small groups, and others are in large groups. It just depends. However, I have not found that I always get correct information about how much help I will get or how much I’m alone in the classroom. Yesterday I got left alone for a while with 15 special needs children. Most of which were very grabby.

      3. Rovannen*

        We are desperate for a certified teacher to cover the class, yet totally understand that SpEd can be a scary place, with many students that do not adjust well to new people. At our school, we have trained Para’s in the room and with the one-on-one students. Definitely ask if you will be left alone there or with Para support. Some of our subs have found their home there, normally retired teachers or those that did student teaching in that environment, but I wouldn’t ask anyone that hasn’t had experience, training or flat out doesn’t feel comfortable. Most students have the knack of sensing a person’s confidence or lack thereof.

          1. Rovannen*

            My apologies, I made an assumption. We have notations by sub staff who have asked to not be placed in SpEd positions, and it doesn’t stop us calling them for other positions.

      4. YaH*

        But, at least in my district, the sub is frequently there *as* the para’s replacement. At least we have a sub-finder system where subs can put in preferred locations, and preferred positions and the system auto-calls based on that.

        OP, don’t worry about turning down SpEd calls- just focus on building up a solid reputation in a couple of schools so that you become a preferred substitute for GenEd classes. Just say “no thank you”.

    2. Parenthetically*

      Most districts are so desperate for subs they’ll take anyone with a pulse! I can’t imagine them blacklisting a qualified sub because they have parameters for what classrooms they’ll be in. My mom subbed while we were in school, taught full-time for a couple decades, and now is retired and back to subbing, and from what she’s told me, there are some subs that will only work MWF or only long-term jobs or short-term jobs, or only in certain buildings or even only for a select list of teachers. Are you in touch with any other subs in the district who you could ask about their particular standards? Could you maybe call whoever contacts the sub list and ask how they generally work around the restrictions and parameters that subs have set?

      But honestly, unless they have too many subs (which I literally cannot imagine), I cannot see them blacklisting a perfectly qualified person just because you aren’t trained for special ed and don’t feel comfortable subbing in that department. I would feel comfortable saying, “I am not trained/qualified in special ed, so could you please take me off the call list when that’s what’s needed so you can get to someone on the list who’ll say yes? I wouldn’t want you to waste your time when I’m only going to turn it down,” but certainly do just keep saying no regardless.

    3. SpEd Teacher*

      Are you sure you’re thinking of the right kind of Special Ed? Are they specifying that these are intellectual disability/autism/etc. classes? I ask because I’m a Special Education teacher, and my students all have learning disabilities. They are all (save one or two that have high functioning autism) neurotypical kids who need more support in order to access the curriculum. Not everyone realizes that these kids fall under the Special Ed umbrella, so I had to bring it up.

      A previous poster was also correct that, for the high-needs classes, there’s almost always a trained paraprofessional who’s still in the room, though it’s understandable if you’re still uncomfortable.

      1. Biff*

        I asked, because I try to be the best sport possible, if this was LD, or if it was autism/Down Syndrome/Severe Issues. They couldn’t tell me. I didn’t understand that. I have done LD before, and that’s fine!

        1. Aardvark*

          Could you do some research using the schools’ websites on which teachers teach self-contained classes and which do push-in or support classes? Then when you get the call you’d be prepared to say whether or not you can accept the placement.
          …Not that you should have to, but it might help.

          1. Teach*

            You can also scout around during a planning period on a subbing day. Find a friendly AP or guidance counselor and ask if they can walk you around the Sped dept so you can get a sense of whether accepting those jobs would be helpful. I subbed BD, LD, and as a 1:1 for a kiddo with CP and they were great days! I wouldn’t have accepted them blindly, though.

    4. Kimberlee, Esq*

      My first instinct is that there’s a large pool of potential subs and they just don’t track preferences that specifically? Obvs you would know better than I. But in my current job, I keep track of things like various food allergies and preferences among 80 people, which is not that many people, and it’s still impossible to remember them without keeping a tracker. Maybe they just don’t bother to keep track and assume that people will just say no to jobs they don’t want.

    5. Nallomy*

      I’d guess that it’s probably out of sheer desperation for subs rather than an attempt to bully you into giving in. Back when I was a per diem sub, I had one job that was just awful – like, multiple visits from the principal and school counselor awful. I was sure I would never be asked back, which was a problem because I (a) needed the money, and (b) was looking for a full time teaching job. I got home and went for a run to blow off steam, and when I returned, I had a voicemail. “Hi Nallomy, this is [secretary] from [school with terrible class], we need a sub for our computer lab teacher tomorrow and the next day, please let us know if you’re available!”

      I’m guessing your district doesn’t use a computerized system to book subs? I know in my district we have to put in “class details” when we put in for a sub, i.e. is it general education, ESL/bilingual, SPED, etc., so at least that much would be available. Honestly, a good (or even decent, really) sub is really valuable, so you might try leaving your contact information in your note to the teacher (for classes you’d want to take again) so he/she could reach out to you in the future. The cluster of teachers I work with has an informal list of our preferred subs that we share around, and if I’m going to be absent I always reach out to those people before I even post my absence on the sub website.

    6. YaH*

      But, at least in my district, the sub is frequently there *as* the para’s replacement. At least we have a sub-finder system where subs can put in preferred locations, and preferred positions and the system auto-calls based on that.

      OP, don’t worry about turning down SpEd calls- just focus on building up a solid reputation in a couple of schools so that you become a preferred substitute for GenEd classes. Just say “no thank you”.

  24. strawberries and raspberries*

    How do I sensitively advise my team to pay more attention to careless writing (“a email,” “formally” when they meant “formerly,” etc.)? My staff are all really intelligent and competent people, and I don’t want it to come across like I’m implying they’re not.

    1. Leatherwings*

      are these internal messages within your team? If so, I’d think about whether it’s really pervasive enough or a big enough deal to even correct. Sometimes that happens because people fire off emails quickly to their coworkers in order to get back to what they’re doing, which isn’t something that’s a big deal most places.

      Otherwise, just be straightforward with them in a check-in “I’ve noticed you often have spelling or grammar mistakes in your emails, for example X and Y. I’d like your emails to be as correct as possible, do you have ideas for what you can do to improve on those mistakes going forward”

    2. Dizzy Steinway*

      Are they internal or external emails? Either way, it sounds like something to address separately in one-to-ones, not as a group.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          For all intensive purposes, perfect grammar is not necessary unless you’re communicating directly to clients. If you’re getting hung up on the occasional typo, then everything else in the organization must be running perfectly.

          1. Kimberlee, Esq*

            I hope the “intensive” part was intentional. :)

            And even if you’re directly interacting with clients, I don’t think perfection is necessary in emails. I think that a lot of grammar and usage rules fall into the category of pointless rules to enforce that have the bonus of often leading to classist and racist divisions and exclusions.

    4. Parenthetically*

      You do it casually, if you need to. “Hey y’all, there have been some typos sneaking through lately and I want to make sure our writing is polished before it goes out. Will you please take an extra minute and give things a quick edit before sending it to the printer/emailing it out/whatever? Not a big deal, it happens to everyone, just want to encourage a little extra vigilance. Thanks!”

    5. Biff*

      I can’t say for certain, but it sounds like maybe their auto-complete is a little overzealous, and the rest are just forgivable typos, BUT, combined together, they look sloppy. Bad deal.

      Maybe do something like this: “We need to up the polish on our emails — we’ve gotten too casual and I’m concerned that we may seem unprofessional or sloppy to other organizations. What I’d like is for everyone to make a point of rereading emails before sending them for the next week or two.”

      Escalate only if needed.

    6. Office Plant*

      Well, if the goal is to avoid hurting their feelings, you could give them a plausible excuse. “Hey folks, in the age of autocorrect and rapid typing on smart phones while multitasking, errors in grammar and word choice are becoming more common. I’ve seen a few of these from our team in the past week. I’m sure you all know better and are just trying to stay on top of your work load and get those emails out as quickly as possible. But before hitting send, please take a moment to review what you’ve written and make sure there aren’t any mistakes. Thanks!”

  25. all aboard the anon train*

    I’m curious if anyone else in Boston has today off work in honor of Evacuation Day?

    I know Massachusetts made state offices stay open awhile back, but my company has still honored the holiday all these years later. We still get Bunker Hill Day and Patriot’s Day off as well (though the latter is probably because my office is on Boylston St on the marathon route and it’s a nightmare trying to enter or leave the office).

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Basically they said “Did anything ever happen on St Patrick’s Day? The British withdrew that one time? Okay, Evacuation Day it is. To the green beer!”

    2. PollyQ*

      My years working in Boston were just with one company, and we never got Evacuation Day as a holiday. My perception was that it was pretty much just a government holiday, but I’m not sure why I thought that.

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        I definitely don’t work in government! I know some of my friends who went to school in the city got the day off, too.

        I don’t think it’s common, but I know some places do give it off.

    4. Creag an Tuire*

      Interestingly, city workers in Chicago don’t get today off (though the city does make a big deal out of St. Patrick’s Day), but did get last Monday off for Pulaski Day.

      1. SaraV*

        I remember getting school off for Casimir Pulaski Day. (Polish immigrant that fought for the US in the Revolutionary War; Strong Polish population in Chicago)

        In Nebraska, they get Arbor Day off since that’s where the first U.S. Arbor Day was celebrated.

        1. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

          I also grew up in the Chicago area and remember having Casimir Pulaski Day off from school. Never worked anywhere that observed it, though.

    5. Elizabeth H.*

      I have never heard of Evacuation Day. I knew city of Boston (not MA at large – I never had school off) had school off for St. Patrick’s day but I always thought it was bc of that!

      I was shocked when I got to college and learned that we did not have Patriots’ Day off school. My freshman year, I actually skipped the Monday anyway to go back home for a long weekend bc my best friend was walking in the marathon.

    6. JB*

      Evacuation Day is a Boston-specific holiday, not a state holiday. That’s why people in Cambridge or other nearby towns wouldn’t get it off. And many Boston businesses don’t close for it, either. But it’s a real thing.

    7. Nallomy*

      No, and I’m so mad! This is the first year that it’s not a day off where I work, and now March has no days off (well, except for the snow days). We also don’t get Bunker Hill Day this year because it’s a Saturday, although we don’t really need a day off the week before school gets out, I guess. (Last year we were supposed to get it off, but they canceled it so we would have the last day of school on a Friday instead of a Monday, which made sense.)

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        Aw, sorry! I always forget about it until March rolls around. To be honest, it’s nice to have Evacuation Day and Patriots’ Day off in March and April because otherwise it’s nothing from MLK Day to Memorial Day.

  26. Lil Lamb*

    I’m looking for some perspective to help me get my head on straight. I recently graduated from college about two years ago and have just started my career job about six months ago. I’m very happy, and I keep referring my friends to my company because they are great to work for. One of my friends in the class behind me applied for an entry level position, but didn’t get it. They really liked her though and asked her to apply for a different position. An associate’s position rather than assistant.

    The second position has totally different requirements than the first, and she has years of experience from doing that type of work while working part time in college. They really like her so it’s very likely that she will get the job. I’m happy for her, but I can’t help feeling envious. She’s skipping entry level and more than likely will be getting paid more too. Any advice/perspective will be helpful.

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      Sometimes you can feel something and not need to do anything to move past it other than just wait it out. This sounds to me like one of those times.

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      She has years of experience, you have 6 months of experience. I wouldn’t chalk it up to any more than that. Pay your dues. On the bright side, it looks like you work for a company that rewards experience, so that’s a positive.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        +1

        Definitely focus on that positive – as you gain experience, they’re likely to reward you or give you more opportunities to grow!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        This is true, they hired her on what matters, experience. She did not get the job because she wore the correct color shoes. The latter scenario would have me awake nights.

        You can console yourself that maybe in some way she will return the favor in a while.

    3. Lilian*

      I understand that feeling. I recently decided on pursuing a different career direction and to do so requires getting a master’s degree. I’ve already being in the workforce for a while so am one of the older students (30 compared to most who are mid-20s), and I feel envious of them because by the time they’re my age they’d be so much further in this career path than I am now (assuming they don’t decide to change career directions as well).

      1. Lil Lamb*

        I actually do have more than six months of experience. I worked internships all throughout college and I worked as a receptionist for about a year. My experiences were just related to my position whereas hers are related to another.

        I think part of the problem is that I’ve known her since high school when age differences actually mattered, and it’s hard to suddenly have to drop that sort of thinking when my personal and work life intersect.

        1. Lil Lamb*

          Sorry, that was meant for Trout ‘Waver.

          As someone who has been encouraging her mother to go back to school and change careers congrats Lilian. Keep moving forward.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          That has always intrigued me. When my friend is 9 and I am 13 that is a huge span and a big difference But when my friend is 92 and I am 96 there is almost no difference at all. Life is odd.

    4. Hellanon*

      Best advice is to let it go – she has, as you said, several more years of experience so she’s not “skipping” entry level but rather has already done it. Think of this, too: by letting envy get in the way, you are cutting yourself off from someone who could turn out to be an excellent colleague in the company – how much better will you feel about yourself if you extend your existing friendship to this new realm, and how much better will it be for your career?

    5. Office Plant*

      Take a deep breath. This is where you are now. A few years from now, you both may be somewhere else. Who knows where.

      Where is this coming from? It sounds like you feel this way because you want to advance in your career. Great! What can you do to acheive that? You could apply for a more challenging position at your company, ask to take on more challenging work, or start doing something professionally related outside of your main job. There are lots of possibilities. Maybe I’m wrong that this is where you’re coming from. But it’s something to consider.

      1. Lil Lamb*

        I do want to advance in my career so that is part of it. But probably the majority of my bitterness comes from the fact that my job requires a lot of hard work with low pay. I love my job and I love the people I work with, but seeing someone I know go from part time work to getting paid probably 10 K more than I make is hard for me to swallow.

        I’m trying my best to just be happy for her though because I was raised to only be look at my neighbor’s plate to make sure they have enough to eat. I also really just want to be the type of women who supports success rather than constantly competes for scraps.

        2. Office Plant*

          Could you get a second job? Or some small freelance projects? Something that would bring you se additional income as well as additional recognition for your accomplishments?

        3. Dizzy Steinway*

          You’re allowed to have feelings though. Having them doesn’t mean you’re not the kind of person you were raised to be. It’s what you do about them that counts. If you take care of yourself while feeling like this, use it to set career goals for yourself and are warm and friendly when you see your friend at work, then you’re good.

    6. MuseumChick*

      As you move forward in your career you will be on both ends of this. There will be times when you are envious of others and times when they are envious of you. I recently went through this. By BFF in the field got a great straight out of school (full time, salary, benefits etc.) I on the other hand could only find a part-time job, less than a year later I found a great full time position with a higher salary than my friend and great benefits, then when there was talk of the over-time rules changing her company gave her a great raise and kept it even after the rules didn’t take effect. My company did not. She’s now have a lot of problems with her boss, while I really like my boss.

      It ebbs and flows.

        1. MuseumChick*

          Glad to help. It’s kind of corny but that book “The Places You Will Go” by Dr. Seuss is suprisingly accurate for adult life. A couple of my favorite parts:

          “Oh the places you’ll go! There is fun to be done! There are points to be scored. There are games to be won. And the magical things you can do with that ball will make you the winning-est winner of all.”

          “You will come to a place where the streets are not marked.
          Some windows are lighted. but mostly they’re darked.
          But mostly they’re darked.
          A place you could sprain both your elbow and chin!
          Do you dare to stay out? Do you dare to go in?
          How much can you lose? How much can you win?”

          “You’ll get mixed up, of course, as you already know. You’ll get mixed up with many strange birds as you go. So be sure when you step. Step with care and great tact and remember that Life’s a Great Balancing Act. Just never forget to be dexterous and deft. And never mix up your right foot with your left.”

          “And when you’re alone there’s a very good chance
          you’ll meet things that scare you right out of your pants
          There are some, down the road between hither and yon,
          that can scare you so much you won’t want to go on.”

    7. nhbillups*

      Did you apply for this job as well? I know this isn’t done at a lot of places after 6 months, but I am a government employee in my state, and it’s totally normal here. There was literally one girl who took my previous job and was there less than a month before she was promoted to a completely different area.

      Or have you talked to your manager about what you career path looks like? Not in a “I’m just waiting to leave here” way, but more of a “I’m so interested in making this my career, and I’d be really grateful if you could give me some sort of broad guidelines/timeline that you’ve noticed is the norm for this field, so I can make sure I’m meeting my goals and benchmarks” way.

  27. Folklorist*

    It’s your germ-soaked ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!!, the spring cold edition. Go forth and do something you’ve been putting off, then come back here and brag about it! We’ll all celebrate together (as soon I’m done with this nap and buy a new box of tissues).

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Thanks for this. I shot off an email that was truly no big deal and that I had been putting off for absolutely no reason at all.

    2. Hellanon*

      Good call! I sent off an email I needed to write, and probably before anyone is here to read it!

    3. Not Australian*

      I cleared all my awkward e-mails, wrangled some details for an event I’m planning, and made a good start on writing my annual report.

    4. Kimberlee, Esq*

      I just submitted a couple awards I’d been putting off, in part because it’s the last day to do so. I saw when i got to the site that they extended the deadline a week, but i STILL submitted today. Yeah, I’m pretty great.

    5. Beezus*

      I put everything off until Monday and took the afternoon off! Taking time off is something I neglect terribly.

    7. Dr. KMnO4*

      I finished a cover letter and a statement of research interests for the job I’m applying to!

  28. whichsister*

    I have my one year review today. And considering the toxic workplace, I am not expecting much if any of a raise. However, My review is over three months late. (it should have been done in December before Christmas at my one year anniversary.) If I do get any sort of increase, is it out of line to ask for it retro back to when my review should have happened?

    1. MsMaryMary*

      I’ve asked for (and recieved!) retroactive raises when my annual review has been delayed.

  29. Very Very Definitely Anonymous*

    Happy Friday, everyone!

    I posted a few months back, about my boss lying about me in reference checks. I found the original link here: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/01/open-thread-january-20-21-2017.html#comment-1335911

    I got a free consultation with a lawyer about it. Unfortunately, his opinion was that while I have a good case, the company is too big for it to be worth pursuing, because they can afford to pay lawyers to drag it out for years and I can’t. So I’m pretty upset about that.

    I got one of my friends to call my old boss too. My old boss told him that I was fired for sexually harassing a coworker. I emailed that to my old company’s HR person…and the email bounced. Turns out she left the company.

    Just to see what would happen, I texted a few co-workers from that job (not even “hey, is Joffrey saying stuff about me?” but just “Hi, how’s it been?”), and NOBODY replied. I’m sure it’s mostly because people are bad at getting back to you, but still.

    I’m feeling pretty hopeless now. I have a copy of my resignation paperwork from that job, which says I’m not fired and I can reapply in the future, but there’s a clause in it saying I can’t discuss the terms of it. Nobody I worked with at this company will get back to me, so I can’t provide an alternate person for hiring managers to talk to. What do I do? Do I look for a lawyer that will take the case on contingency/pro bono? Do I disclaim to any job I apply to that wants to check references, my boss at ACME has been lying about me in retribution for me making a HR complaint about him (sounds like a bad idea)? I’m really despairing about how this guy originally got HR to rally behind him and now he’s going on the warpath against my career, and I don’t have anything I can do about it.

    1. Anon a Bonbon*

      I’m a little surprised by the lawyer’s response. He should at least send a nasty letter telling them to cut it out and threaten to sue if it continues. At this point, you just need them to stop.
      I have contract with an old employer that says any reference calls should be sent to HR and HR will only verify my date of employment. I caught my boss committing fraud- he would not have nice things to say.

      1. Very Very Definitely Anonymous*

        Do you think I just might have gotten a crappy lawyer through the referral service? I’ve thought of that but I’ve been worried about having to shell out several hundred dollars for another consultation, and then find out I need to pay five figures for anything else.

        But OTOH, what he said did sound logical, and HR leapt to my boss’ defense immediately, so they may well drag it out in court to spite me. Their response was basically, “The official policy is that managers direct any requests for references to HR. Your boss absolutely would NOT break the policy. Don’t bring this up again, because it did NOT happen.”

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          Not crappy, but overworked. Initial consults are usually pretty reasonable (your market may be different). As I pointed out below, you should be looking for a letter sent on your behalf to HR. Not to sue. HR is being dismissive towards you. They will respond differently to an attorney.

        2. Anon a Bonbon*

          Normally, you would pay $200 (an hour’s fee) to the attorney to send a letter.
          I would seek out another attorney. If you just need a letter, you can even have a regular attorney send it because you aren’t planning on perusing the case. If the company is still a jerk about it, your attorney can refer you to an employment attorney to make a legal case.

        3. Observer*

          No sane company would do that. Even a not so sane company would do that. It’s not in their interest to do that. Yes, they can afford to drag it out. But, it’s cheaper to make him stop it (and maybe give you a couple of dollars to make you go away.)

          I can’t imagine why a lawyer would suggest sending the company a registered letter – this is a pretty open and shut case which means that it could cost them some money, even if they manage to drag it out.

          1. Very Very Definitely Anonymous*

            My old company is afraid of losing this guy. He’s atrocious at managing people, but he’s apparently brilliant at his subfield of software engineering.

            When I was there, I remember two occasions where he wanted a raise or a promotion​, and he would loudly talk about how Microsoft or Goldman Sachs wanted to hire him, and a few weeks later, the department would get an email about how Joffrey just got a promotion for his outstanding contributions to the company.

            From what I saw from him when I was there, he wasn’t an astounding programmer, but the company’s HR acted like I told them they needed to fire the CEO or I would sue them, after I first contacted them about his lying. They said there was no chance he had actually said anything against me, and not to contact them again about this.

            1. Observer*

              They don’t want to lose him, but defending a law suit is more expensive than giving him a raise. So, a lawyer’s letter that lays this on the line WILL get their attention, because it’s going to go up the food chain.

              I doubt they will fire him – but I have no doubt that they will make him stop lying about you.

      2. WellRed*

        I agree that the lawyer should have at least sent a cease and desist letter. Just because they can fight it, doesn’t mean they will. Also, if he’s saying something so blatantly untrue (defamatory?) in “retaliation” which I believe is a word Alison often recommends using, his own lawyers (or HR, it can’t be that difficult to find the new person?) might tell him to knock it off.

        Was the lawyer an employment lawyer?

        1. Very Very Definitely Anonymous*

          The guy’s a “rockstar software engineer” at a prestigious company. I think HR’s response is half not wanting to lose him (when I was there he would start talking very loudly about all the interviews he does whenever he was unhappy), and half thinking they can get me to go away. It being a tech company is why I think he chose to make up a lie about me being a sexual harasser, our field is rightfully getting a lot of negative press about discrimination. Though I may be overthinking it because of my anxiety over the whole mess.

          I did send an email to HR manager’s boss because I remembered their name, I just didn’t get anything back, which could be for any number of reasons. I guess next step would be to look if the HR contact is listed in an online phone directory, or call up the main office number if it isn’t.

          1. Trout 'Waver*

            You don’t have to win a case. All you have to do is make it easier for the company to tell him to knock it off than for them to stonewall you. It’s easy to stonewall you. It’s tougher to stonewall and attorney.

          2. WellRed*

            Ahh, this adds more context I didn’t have. Although lying about someone of sexual harrassment is still waaaay over the top. I still think if you can, you should try and fight this.

            1. Lil Lamb*

              Even if you have no plans to sue the company, wouldn’t you have a REALLY strong case to sue this individual for libel? This person is lying about you and preventing you from getting jobs. That has to be actionable. Any lawyers here who can chime in?

              1. Very Very Definitely Anonymous*

                From what I know about his lifestyle, his net worth is probably pretty low, even relative to mine and not the company’s.

                The way the lawyer I was referred to said it, it’s not even worth doing that because he could just never show up to court and I’d never be able to collect damages from the default judgment, because from everything he ever said while I worked there, he’s living far above his means. Meanwhile I would be paying five figures in lawyer’s fees.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Wow! I’m so sorry about that! I have no advice (especially because IANAL) but I hope someone here can help you or point you in the right direction.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      Talk to another lawyer. You shouldn’t necessarily be looking to sue. A strongly worded letter is often enough to restart a conversation about how the company refers to your employment. Also, lawyers with free consults in some areas can tend to be much more conservative about the cases they take because they get offered so many lousy cases. I’m not saying that attorneys who offer free consultations are disreputable or anything. Just that they can get overwhelmed with people with bad cases and unrealistic expectations.

      1. Very Very Definitely Anonymous*

        I’ll try that. I don’t expect to be able to humiliate him and the company and win a six or seven figure settlement. I just want him to stop trying to rage out and lie about me to anyone who’ll listen.

        I’ll specifically ask the next lawyer to write a C&D to the company to make my old boss stop lying about me.

        Even with that, there’s no chance it’ll stop him from trashing me when he thinks he’s able to get away with it, will it? Like, if I apply at a company and the hiring manager knows him and asks what he thinks of me, and he says that I’m a serial sexual harasser, I can’t do anything about it. That’s really depressing to me.

    4. Denise in FL*

      Have you tried calling the receptionist at the office and asking to speak to someone in HR or for their contact information? Maybe if you could get a hold of someone in the HR department, you can speak with them to resolve this and use the HR department only for references going forward.

  30. Tempest*

    Ongoing saga with terrible job continues. Having figured it out my colleague averages 3 hours a day unaccounted for in a front line service position, IE I have no choice but to pick up the slack when he’s not present. If his phone rings it’s not an option not to answer it. Manager’s advice is simply to stop covering for him and just leave notes for him to pick stuff up and thus let customers down. This also gets me grief from customers who rightly don’t understand why they must wait for slack/lazy colleague to ring them back and do what should have been done in the first place. Some people say they have asked numerous times for these things to be done and I’m being told just to leave a note to ask again. This is her prerogative but it’s not a way I’m comfortable treating customers so I know it’s time to leave. It’s her circus, we’re her monkeys and all I can do is decide it’s not for me and self select out. I understand that I am up against a brick wall where that is my only option now.

    Have made colleague’s failings clear to the manager on numerous occasions to be told that she can’t do anything about things she doesn’t see-she knows exactly how much colleague is missing at least part of the time but doesn’t want to admit it and frankly doesn’t want to manage it. It would involve hard conversations she’s not willing to have and that’s that. When he is at his desk he’s on his cell phone. Literally either not there or on cell phone. One of these half hour breaks falls into her dinner break without fail every day. It’s that blatant. I find myself snapping at other colleagues who ask where he is because I don’t know and I’m doing the work of two people already, which means the last thing I need is my nose rubbed in it to make it even more obvious.

    So I’ve been looking hard core for another job. I originally wanted to move to a different site of the same company but I’ve come to accept posters who told me to make a clean break were right. It’s time to leave this place and this org in the rearview mirror.

    I’ve had an interview and been more or less offered the job. I have an interview next week somewhere else which my potential new manager has encouraged me to attend and question to be sure if they offer me that job as well I’m picking the one I think I will do best in. Potential new manager didn’t want to rush me into a snap decision but clearly was mutually very interested in working with me. We really seemed to gel and talked for almost an hour and a half when I went in expecting a ten minute convo.

    Here’s the thing I could do with some help with. Presuming they offer me both jobs, which is better?
    Job one – Presume I work with gold teapots as an advisor. This would be stepping down to silver teapots brand wise, but the job is assistant manager of silver teapots. The pay is better than I’m on now and better than job two in that the basic salary is the same but job one has some target driven bonus pay job two does not involve. The person who would be my manager in job one is very interested in providing ongoing training and development to move me further and with more success into the management team. I’m given to understand a lot of upper management there are nearing retirement age and if I grow quickly, the company could find ways to move me along. I really clicked with this manager, and the manager’s feedback about me was equally positive to the recruitment agent. I can see myself developing a good working bond with this person and learning so much from them. The hours are as long as I work now and involve working weekends more or less for free, which is the same as I do now, so it’s actually not that big a deal to me.

    Job two – Would be like trading in a role in slightly cool gold teapots for even cooler, trendier gold teapots but both places as an advisor, it’s basically a sideways move. The branch is brand new and they haven’t to my knowledge hired the manager yet so I have no idea who I’d be working directly for. I therefor can’t get a feel for how interested they will be in my ongoing development. The brand is progressive and very cool, which would lead you to believe they likely will want to develop and promote from within but so much of that obviously depends on a good manager who wants to focus on it. There is obviously an element of selling teapot add ons in job one but there is no element of selling add ons in job two, it’s purely about looking after teapot owners as best as you possibly can and I do excel at looking after owners. The role has no weekends and the commute is about 10 minutes shorter than both my current one and job one. (My commute for current job and job one will be identical.) This company has the potential to grow at an exponential pace, so there are likely to be opportunities to move up come available, but not knowing if the new manager would be focused on taking all his or her upwardly mobile staff as far as they can is worrying. There is also the chance that due to how different this teapot company is, many people won’t hack it and in theory I could have a revolving door of managers above me if I get/take this job or due to my background in standard teapots I might not transition well. Because my customer service skills are so strong and so much what I’m best at, I think I would do well but when it’s a totally new situation, you can never be sure.

    So, I know only I can truly make this decision but looking for opinions. Do you take the job which pays better, isn’t as trendy so could possibly be safer from shifts in the market place (IE think job one is every day teapots that everyone needs and job two is quirky teapots that a lot of people think are too weird to use) and comes with a manager who seems really ready to take someone under her wing and grow them into an even better manager, and is a manager who you can already see yourself doing well under/growing attached to from a mentor point of view, and is the job which will potentially give you more understanding and skills with the kind of teapots most companies work with so might be the best for moving to new teapot companies in the future. Or do you take job two if it’s offered, not knowing if the potential to learn and grow will be as strong but knowing you will get an exciting new challenge of a different sort, have a shorter commute, your weekends back and no pressure around your accessory selling ability?

    I don’t want the fact I liked manager one to unduly influence me that way because I’m inherently a people pleaser and because we liked each other I don’t want to let them down. But I need to do the right thing for me at the end of the day, I’m just not sure what that is, so I’m hoping a bunch of work/management enthused impartial people can give me some clarity!

    Thanks to anyone with advice/opinions :)

    2. misspiggy*

      Sorry, I couldn’t make it through to work out what is really being asked here. Any chance you could add a TL;DR?

    3. Tempest*

      The last four paragraphs are the most important I suppose? If you don’t want to read it please feel free to skip to the next person. Thanks anyway!

    4. Effie*

      I wouldn’t discount the importance of an awesome manager; I’ve heard that more people quit because of bad managers than anything else and for me personally I get more job satisfaction when I have a quality manager in a less challenging job than in a more challenging job with a bad or absent manager. This is NOT to say that job 2 will have a bad manager. Will you get a chance to interview for job 2 at all?

      I’m leaning towards job 1 because security and (sounds like) guaranteed growth are more important to me right now than fresh new challenges and less pressure to sell, and that’s because I’ve spent the last few years with more of the latter and am looking for the former (and I actually love selling, and I totally understand that not everyone does).

      Also remember that you may experience work PTSD when you enter your new job, and think about which environment would be better for you to cope with.

      I think you can tell that I am biased towards job 1 and this is your decision so do what you won’t regret! Best of luck.

      1. Tempest*

        Yes, I have an interview for two next week. Awesome manager I already met said in our interview they’re going to want to snap you up but ask hard questions – query their attrition, operations ect and be sure what you want to do. The product job two is selling will either take off massively or fizzel out as a trend that didn’t go anywhere. I think it will take off, but that’s speculating. I need to go see job 2, but I lean toward job one too, purely for the awesome manager. He said he’s where he is now because someone saw something in him and took a risk on him and I get the feeling he’s wanting to pay it forward with someone like me. I want to be a manager and job one gives me that now with someone who wants to see me do it, do it well and grow to do it even better. I guess that’s worth something along with the hours you work and the pay you get for it. Thanks for your thoughts :)

        1. mousemom*

          Just based on how your comments on both jobs read, it sounds like the first one might be your better choice. You’re already hurting from the fact that your current boss is a waste of time; going to work for an awesome boss could go a very long way toward giving you back your own mojo, not to mention the opportunity for growth in a nurturing environment. You know your comfort zones the best; the one that will be the most immediately satisfying without adding undue stress might be the place to regroup and recover.’

          Good luck with whichever one you choose, and please keep us posted!

    5. Not So NewReader*

      FWIW, I tend to be conservative/cautious. We are just re-knitting after a bad economic period. This makes me even more conservative and more cautious. I would take job 1. Flash comes and goes, my bills and food habit are here to stay. I have to look at the long term.

      You have a bad setting. You have an opportunity for a job that you are sure will be a good setting. We do have an obligation to ourselves to put ourselves in a good place with good people.

      I am one who believes that if I have a good boss, everything else falls into place after that. You can work for this boss and still find tools for your people pleaser habits that you would like to get a handle on. You do not need to avoid this job in order to “cure” your people pleasing. Matter of fact, avoidance will not cure you because people pleasing is a separate story.

  31. AndersonDarling*

    How do you handle health insurance between jobs? Did you COBRA, health market, or just press your luck for a few months without insurance?
    I have a 3rd round interview next week, and I realized that my family would be without insurance for 2 months if I was offered and accepted the job. Before I only had to worry about myself, so I went without insurance in these transitions. Now I’m not sure I want to risk it.

    1. CDM*

      When we had this situation (many years ago) you had 60 days from leaving a job to elect COBRA. Googling shows that this is still true. I googled “cobra time frame” and the first link under the ads is the DOL FAQ – which includes alternatives to electing COBRA that could be less expensive. This would be a qualifying life event that would allow you access to the Marketplace, for example.

      But the thing with the 60 days for COBRA is that election is retroactive, and that each family member can elect independently. If anyone requires healthcare coverage, that person can elect COBRA after said care and it would be covered.

      I ended up just paying for the two months of COBRA, for us it was something like $600/month. With my son’s chronic health issues, relying on that COBRA retroactive dodge seemed unethical and the cost was relatively affordable for us at the time.

    2. Rebecca*

      I’m in that boat now, but thankfully it’s only for the month of March. So far, so good, and only 14 more days to go. I will pay for COBRA if I have to, but since the premium for that lone would suck up 3+ weeks of take home pay, plus a $3K deductible on top, it’s going to have to be a pretty urgent matter for me to part with that much money. I’m generally healthy so as long as I don’t fall and break something, I should be OK.

      From what I understand, you don’t have to invoke COBRA right away, but it is available should you need it. I know a lot of people just keep the paperwork handy, just in case, due to the high cost. So, if I developed a bacterial infection, and needed antibiotics, it would be cheaper to pay the full doctor’s office visit rate and get meds at the pharmacy, rather than pay the entire COBRA premium plus deductible for a simple thing. A broken bone or other issue? Pay for COBRA. Hope that helps!

    3. Parenthetically*

      We use a medical-cost-sharing nonprofit instead of traditional insurance and we love it. Don’t have to pay any fines/penalties, and it’s cheaper than standard insurance (~$275/mo for both of us). If you’ll have decent insurance at your next job, you could look into using it as a stopgap to ensure coverage during that time. Might be worth a look.

    4. Natalie*

      A nice little trick with COBRA is that you have 60 days to sign up and it’s retroactive to the date you left your job. So the last time I was between insurance I just kept my paperwork in case I got into a car accident or something during the gap period. Since your gap is 2 months this should work for you too.

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        Plus you have 45 days to pay the first payment. So, you have 105 days of grace period where you can retroactively have health insurance without incurring the costs. It works out well if your unemployment is temporary, or if you are looking to go find something in the health insurance marketplace.

    5. Danae*

      I’m wrestling with this myself! (I was laid off at the end of last month.) The cheapest marketplace health insurance I can get is over $300 a month for just me, and they count UI as income so I’m not eligible for much of a discount. (My UI will cover rent+necessities, but it will not stretch to cover rent+necessities+health insurance.) I got my COBRA letter the other day, but it didn’t say how much COBRA coverage would be for me! Apparently I have to opt in in order to find out how much I’d be paying per month.

      What I’m hoping happens is that I get the job I’ve been interviewing for, since I’d start in early April (and would have insurance in May) and I’d qualify for the short gap exemption. (If the individual mandate doesn’t go away, that is. Believe me, I am watching the news like a hawk.)

    6. AndersonDarling*

      Thanks to everyone for the info! I had no idea that I had 60 days to sign up for COBRA. We may have a dr apt during the gap, but we can pay that out of pocket. It’s a relief to know that I can sign up for cobra if anything major turns up.

      1. Minerva McGonagall*

        Yup, and it’s been explained to me by multiple HR folks that it is not unethical to plan to sign up only if needed retroactively. The whole reason the 60 day window exists is to avoid the overhead involved in signing folks up for insurance they probably won’t use over the few weeks they gap between jobs.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I did a similar thing when I was in between insurances. It was a little nerve-wracking, so what I did was just be extra careful. I avoided unnecessary risks such as climbing on ladders, etc. It went fine.

          I got my other insurance and did not need the Cobra. I had to let them know I would not be taking it. I think I went right up to day number 58 or 59 before I called them.

    7. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

      In my state, twice, I was able to get short-term health care insurance through a major provider (not related to the marketplace at all). It was reasonable to pay monthly and there were levels of choice for coverage. It was month-to-month and I just cancelled when I got another job and their insurance started.

    8. H.C.*

      I wound up lucking out with medical insurance for a month (I thought I would’ve had continuous coverage, but realized NewJob’s medical insurance wouldn’t kick in until my 2nd month of working there.) But my coverage was only for me; with a family I’d be more inclined to COBRA or use the health market.

    9. Rookie Biz Chick*

      I pressed my luck after I was laid off, and unfortunately didn’t realize the timeline for signing up for coverage on the Exchange. By the time I could afford insurance later in the year, I wasn’t allowed to sign up and was past the 60 days others mentioned to enact retroactive COBRA. I’m so thankful I stayed healthy that year and didn’t need it, but the IRS penalty for not having coverage for 11 months was excruciating. Even if you are uninsured for a couple of months, there likely would be a penalty – though not sure if that will be enforced given Trump’s recent executive order and the future of ACA.

      1. Natalie*

        There is actually a gap exception in the ACA, where you don’t pay a penalty for short gaps in coverage – it’s either 2 or 3 months, I’ve seen conflicting things.

    10. The JMP*

      I got an affordable, bare-bones month-to-month policy through my university’s alumni association. You might consider checking to see if professional associations or other groups you’re a part of have those kinds of plans available.

    11. Elizabeth West*

      I simply can’t afford COBRA. It’s out of the question. The only thing I can do (and did) is to get on a low-income program at my doctor’s office, which charges $10 for anything they do in the office (and the onsite lab, if they want you to nip down there for a blood draw or pee cup). I don’t know if that counts, but it’s better than nothing.

    12. Chaordic One*

      You have to do your homework and find out what is cheapest for you and your family.

      After I was fired from Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. in the fall of 2015, I compared COBRA against coverage under “Affordable Care Act” (ACA) policies. Because I suddenly found myself unemployed, that was a qualifying reason to enroll in a policy under the ACA. At that point, I had ongoing medical expenses and I compared the costs of:

      1. paying for everything out-of-pocket
      2. ridiculously expensive COBRA
      3. starting over with an ACA policy where I would have to pay the insurance premium AND meet a new deductible before the insurance would kick in.

      I figured out that 2. ridiculously expensive COBRA was the best option for me for the last couple of months of 2015. Even though it was ridiculously expensive, I had already met my deductible and it was cheaper than starting a new ACA policy and having to meet their deductible and it was cheaper than paying for the whole thing out-of-pocket. Then in early December of 2016 I enrolled in the ACA in the open enrollment period and I became covered by an ACA policy in January of 2016.

      Since it is still fairly early in 2017, this might not be true for you, and you might be better off with an ACA policy. It’s a PITA having to figure this stuff out, though.

  32. The Moving Finger*

    Dear AAM folks:
    Should I report that I am being bullied by a fellow coworker if:
    (a) I already have a bad reputation in this office and don’t think that being a problem child yet again by reporting this is going to make that any better, but will sure make it worse.
    (b) my boss is awesome and likes me, but the higher-ups in my office (who are the ones who decide whether or not to write me up, see below) have admitted to having no idea what to do about bullying, and they have not backed me up in the recent past. There is no HR. We already have a manager bully they have not done anything about for years and will not fire. I do not trust them to help even if now they are “just realizing” that they have a bullying problem.
    (c) I have reason to believe that mine is already kinda trying to get me fired, but no specific evidence I can cite. So far what she’s tried hasn’t worked, though one of those attempts is why I know the higher-ups won’t back me up for shit. There was an anonymous false complaint that I got written up for with no evidence (my boss said he believed me, but apparently his supervisor did not, see “bad reputation”), and I get the impression from my boss that she’s always going on about how I complain all the time even though he doesn’t name names as to where the complaints are coming from. At this point I’m just not speaking 95% of the time and yet the complaints continue.
    (d) I literally spend all day every day sitting next to mine and there is no hope of getting another job or transfer or getting us put into separate offices. I have asked (not citing this as the reason why) and gotten a no. Job hunting is getting me nowhere. I think my options are put up with this or end up jobless and homeless.
    (e) all I can think of is that if I report mine, all they’re going to do is write her up and politely ask her to stop, and meanwhile she’s even madder and next to me all day, every day. If she already wants to get me fired, I feel like I can’t do anything to make it better but I sure as hell can make it worse by escalating and reporting. I don’t think my unit could even function if half of us were in open warfare with each other and cannot be separated short of someone (probably me) getting fired. Also she’s supposed to be my backup.

    I keep coming to the conclusion of “no, say nothing, do not let on” and so does everyone else I know IRL that I told this to, even though they are mad and upset that (e) is what would happen and keep saying “that’s not fair” and “that’s not right.” But what does the AAM crowd think?

    1. Biff*

      Oooh. That sounds like a bad situation all around. I do agree that reporting would probably cause her to escalate her abuse. I think you need to focus on getting a new job and report them to the BL or other governing body, as well as drop a bad review on Glassdoor.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I guess it would be really inappropriate to suggest you file a series of anonymous complaints about her…

      1. The Moving Finger*

        Hahahahahahaah, I wish! Unfortunately I can’t drop anonymous complaints about how she does her job because she’s good at it. Anything I said would be pretty specific as to what was going on.

    3. Channel Z*

      Why do you have a bad reputation. Is it a result of false rumours spread by bully? is she rally ing people around her? Those are difficult to combat.

      1. The Moving Finger*

        I have a bad reputation because for awhile I was assigned to do duties I was really not good at. And this office has become very nitpicky on top of that, so I always seem to have ticked someone off one way or another.

        I don’t know if she is spreading rumors or rallying people beyond our other teammates, I suspect she’s probably done something there since they don’t speak to me much any more.

  33. esra*

    My beloved manager is being forced out (it’s not good for women here at senior levels). I am so bummed. The leadership on our team is a big part of the reason I like it here so much. It really is true what they say about leaving managers and not jobs.

    I’m going to talk to our big boss after it happens and see if this is a precursor for getting rid of the whole team. It’s very frustrating because we’re performing well by internal and industry standards. So bummed.

      1. esra (also a Canadian)*

        Thanks Effie. That’s pretty much all there is to do, unfortunately. Once you get on the bad side of senior management, deserved or completely un-, it’s impossible to get back.

  34. peachie*

    Anyone else sad to transition from winter to spring/summer, work wardrobe-wise? I’m glad it’s warming up but I strongly prefer dressing for winter in the office. I’m gonna miss my turtleneck/warm tights/sweater dress collection!

    2. rageismycaffeine*

      The HVAC in my building is so loco that I pretty much dress exactly the same all year round. I am ALWAYS cold.

      1. peachie*

        This is my problem!! I would love to do that, but where I live is swamp hell in the summer, and I have to walk/public commute. I am not looking forward to those awful days where you come in all sweaty from the heat and are immediately frozen by the AC. :(

        1. Parenthetically*

          I lived in a SERIOUSLY over-air-conditioned city for awhile, and it’s a mess! Even the buses were like meat lockers. People wore scarves year-round, even though it was a subtropical climate, so they could rug up in their offices and on public transport.

        2. rageismycaffeine*

          Ooh, I feel your pain. I drive and only have to be outside for about a minute between car AC and work AC.

          Now when I go for a run at lunch, I have that sweat + AC = instant snowman effect, but that’s a different beast…

    3. SophieChotek*

      I agree. It’s so much easier to still look professional and be comfortable in the winter/fall…much more difficult in summer. (Perhaps I’m wrong, but I always feel like a majority of nice clothes for summer only look really good on super thin and tall people…not that isn’t true of most fashion, but especially light weight clothing and fabrics…). I like my jeans and slacks and sweaters…and vests and blazers…

    4. Dee-Nice*

      I love that it’s getting warmer, but yeah, I am sad about a return to dressing for warm weather. Often work-appropriate summer clothing in my price range is made from cheaper fabrics, which are not breathable… and I’m a sweat-er. I’m also busty, so have to watch out for anything too low-cut. I also hate my arms and legs, so I feel self-conscious all summer. AND I have plantar fasciitis that comes back every now and then, so wearing cute shoes 24/7 is not an option.

      Yeah, I’m a barrel of laughs today. But I will miss sweaters, black pants, and comfy boots.

      1. nhbillups*

        This is not at all related to work wear, but if you haven’t tried this for plantar fasciitis, you should! Freeze a water bottle, and then roll your foot along it, several times a day if possible. This was SO helpful for me!

    5. Anon a Bonbon*

      I miss boots in the summer. Boots make dressing so much easier. And I miss my fun knee high socks.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Who says you can’t wear boots in the summer? I do – you just have to pick the right boots.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      So much. I don’t like hot weather and I don’t have a lot of transitional clothes.

    7. Manders*

      I prefer spring/summer clothing, but I do find it harder to dress appropriately for the office when I’m also walking to work in the summer. The air conditioning is blasting when it’s 70 degrees out, but I’ll melt if I walk a mile and a half up a hill in thick tights in the summer.

      I end up bringing a ton of cardigans and blazers to work in the summer so I can layer.

    8. 20-something*

      I’m going to tag onto this, if that’s okay – does anyone have advice for work clothes which hide a ‘pot belly’? I gained some weight around the middle over the last year because of a back injury, and clothes shopping is a nightmare now. My limbs are still skinny, so I just end up looking pregnant and it’s getting me down when I try to shop. :( I got away with it in my previous job because I could wear whatever I wanted (even jeans!), but the one I’m starting soon is more corporate – I’d probably characterise it as ‘stylish business casual’ (PR, if that helps).

      1. Manders*

        I know the pain of shopping when you’re apple-shaped. A lot of fashion magazines say that you should look for blouses and dresses with an empire waist, but I’ve found that those often look like maternity clothes on me.

        I prefer items that are fitted at the waist and then flare out from there–think fit-and-flare dresses, peplums, and blazers with a slim rather than loose fit. High-waisted pants with some give in the waistband look better than low-cut pants that require me to prop my pooch up on the waistband.

        If you have to wear a pencil skirt, try to find one with two seams running along the front on either side of your stomach–for some reason, skirts with that cut make my midsection look way better.

        1. Manders*

          Google says those seams I was trying to describe on a pencil skirt are called “princess seams.” I’ve only heard that term applied to shirts before, but the concept is similar.

        2. Emilia Bedelia*

          Multiple seams are definitely more flattering!

          A wide expanse of space looks bigger to the eye than several smaller chunks. Look up a vertically colorblocked dress (where the sides are a different color than the center section)- this style is visually very slimming.
          This is the same reason that turtlenecks/shirts with high necks emphasize the bustline so much- a lower neckline with more skin exposed breaks up the chest region and distracts the eye. Similarly, this is why the “all black from head to toe” is said to be slimming, and why horizontal stripes are said to be unflattering.

      2. A. Non*

        Find a comfy blazer or suit jacket that works for you and comes in multiple neutrals and buy three, so you can rotate them. Capsule wardrobe advice was AMAZING for when I had to dress stylish business casual. Neutrals with a pop of color never go out of style.

    9. mreasy*

      Noooooo. So much more laundry in the winter! Constantly washing my scarves to avoid breaking out…I can’t wait for this horrible season to end!!

    11. AcademiaNut*

      I’m with you. Summer is just so hot and humid that there is nothing I can wear that won’t leave me dripping with sweat (literally) when I get to work. And even in the office, the AC can’t be set below 25 C (77 F).

      Although I’m *not* happy it’s getting warmer in the first place. In summer I actually relish that icy blast of AC feeling you get walking into a heavily air conditioned room.

    12. JaneB*

      Totally me too. I’m at the age of hot flushes, and winter layers and cool rooms are so much easier to work in. All summer I’m just distracted by physical discomfort… (U.K., old building, no air con and sort of on-or-off centrally controlled heating)

  35. MSquared*

    Does anyone have any reliable, quality, and recommended places that can look over your resume and cover letter and give you solid advice?

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      Ideally, someone who works in your industry and does a lot of hiring. Make it clear you aren’t asking them to edit, but rather give you an overall impression.

  36. Well That's Rude*

    My office mate yesterday asked me to bring something she’d brought to the back part of the office back up to the front (all of twenty steps or so). She does this on occasion and it’s annoying, but I do it because I’m more junior and I guess those ten seconds to do this are more valuable for her time than for mine. When I got back she said, “It’s so nice to have a little gopher.” I thought I misheard her so I asked her to repeat it, but no, I heard correctly, and she clarified that she meant it was nice for her to have someone to retrieve and replace things so she didn’t have to get up and do it herself. This is not a disability issue, she just doesn’t want to do it herself.

    The fact of doing it at all is annoying, but such is entry-level life, I suppose. The issue here for me is being called a “little gopher” and the actual verbal acknowledgment that I do this on a regular basis and it feels like I’m being devalued. I was again asked to bring something up to the front for her this morning.

    On top of that, the new presidential proposed budget threatens to kill my agency, which is stressful even if there’s a whole process and such that could mean nothing actually happens.

    I need a nap.

    2. Emi.*

      Ugh, that is so frustrating. Pauline Fossil does this in “Ballet Shoes,” and gets a severe comeuppance, so I recommend (re)reading that chapter and fantasizing about it happening to your office mate.

      On the other hand, if she’s just a senior coworker and not above you in the chain of command, what would happen if you said “Sorry, I can’t do that, I’m busy with these teapots”? Is it disrupting your work (even just by breaking your train of thought) that it would make sense to go to your manager and ask whether you should keep making this a priority?

      1. Well That's Rude*

        The chain of command is really blurry around here. I’m a contractor and she’s an organization employee, but we share an office and she hands me most of my assignments. Mostly when she’s giving me something to put up front, she says, “When you get a minute,” but the understanding is really right now. And frequently it isn’t really interrupting anything (in fact, I’m in drought season in terms of workflow 70% of the time). So, I think if I gave that response, she’d essentially just say, “When you get a minute,” and I’d be, in that scenario, actually expected to take it at face value.

        Maybe I’m misunderstanding the expectations for entry-level work and really am nothing more than the intern-grabbing-coffee stereotype (though we haven’t quite reached that level), but it really knocks on my self-esteem. This job has already severely knocked me down in terms of what I think I’m capable of (even though past jobs have shown me I was capable of far more than I originally believed) and I just know I’m going to have bad job PTSD when I’m finally able to get out.

        1. Government Mule*

          Perhaps you discuss with your contractor boss. If it’s not in your contract’s SOW, you should’t be doing it. And google “non-personal services contract.”

    3. LCL*

      Did you know that ‘gofer’ is slang for ‘go fer this and go fer that’? She wasn’t calling you a rodent.
      One way to stop these people who make weird demands is to say ‘I will get for you in 5 minutes. or 10 minutes. Or at 10:15’, whenever. So you’re not refusing but you’re jumping at her command either.

      1. Well That's Rude*

        I did not! (Yikes, I’m embarrassed.)

        Unfortunately, often what she has from the front needs to be immediately available for our clients, but I’ll think about how I can make that work. Thanks!

  37. TotesMaGoats*

    So, I’ve officially completed a month at NewJob. I honestly haven’t been happier in a REALLY long time. It’s crazy how when I look back, I can see even more clearly how dysfunctional OldJob was. And how damaging it was to me. I was more depressed than I let myself acknowledge.
    I also didn’t really realize how that depression was really impacting my family life. When your toddler says “Mommy is happy now”. Geez. Gut check.

    1. Can't Sit Still*

      I’m so glad for you! Toxic jobs are incredibly draining. Good for you for getting out.

  38. Ayla K*

    I posted this in the “how can I get my staff to stop making trivial complaints all day?” thread earlier this week as a response to LW #5 and am still curious:

    I know Alison has talked about leaving short stint jobs off your resume before, but how does that work when it’s a current job, as it is in this LW’s situation? Surely it will come up during the interview process that they are currently employed?

    1. AKJ*

      I’ve worked both part-time retail and other temp jobs while looking for work, and usually I don’t put them on the resume. If it comes up, I say something like “I’ve been working at a temp job – just something to keep the lights on!”
      The only time anyone has ever asked beyond that is to ask how much notice I’d have to give. This last time, the answer was “none,” because I’d set my availability at part-time retail job assuming I’d get an 8-5 job again. I ended up keeping the retail job for a few extra months to make up for lost income.

  39. AvonLady Barksdale*

    Last week, someone asked about workplace “PTSD”– specifically, the effects of toxic former workplaces on new jobs. The other day, I got a taste of just how bad my last place was and how much it truly affected my approach to my job. I contributed to a report that I found very challenging, knowing that my boss would review it and edit before sending to the client. My boss wrote to me and said that he had to make several more changes to this one than the last one, so I should take a close look at it. He also said that he chalked that up to the timing of the project, that we hadn’t had a chance to go through it together. I got this email in the evening and it set off all kinds of terrible things– anxiety, guilt, fear, etc. I wrote him back and said of course I would, thank you, I did find this one more difficult, etc. I felt so awful. I was sure he thought I was a terrible hire. I was sure his respect for me had declined significantly.

    The next day? I was getting ready to send him another report and I said, “I hope you’ll find this one better than the last one,” and he replied, “You’re doing a great job on these.” A GREAT JOB. As in, when he said he attributed the issues with the last one to a lack of time, that’s exactly what he meant. When he said he expected me to take 12-18 months to really master my role, he meant it (it’s been 3 months). And I’m doing fine, and no one is watching me, hoping I’ll screw up. And when he sends me criticism, his goal is to guide me toward doing things correctly, not to make me feel like an idiot.

    This is surprisingly hard to grasp, but I’m holding on to it.

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      I’m also in recovery from this and still learning not to take everything as a sign my manager hates me.

      I’m glad you have a nice boss!

    2. SophieChotek*

      Congrats! That and wasn’t it you who had that nice note last week? You are doing a great job — Last ToxicJob just didn’t let you know that.

    3. zora*

      YES! I’m in the exact same situation right now, in regards to feedback and being developed by my manager. It’s CRAZY how many times I have that “Oh, Right!” moment and how good it feels! Yay, high fives for recovering from Toxic Jobs!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      For your part in the story, you had the ideal response: you were willing to look at and learn from the problem areas. You thanked him. (This always impresses me when people remember to do this. It shows that the person understands I want them to win here.)

      Technically speaking, you are being a great employee. You are a boss’ dream.

      A good chunk of life seems to be all about having the brass to keep going. Just keep going, keep using this approach here. It will serve you well. I am happy to see you are in a good spot.

  40. roseberriesmaybe*

    So I recently started at my first professional job (yay!) The issue is, my last job had a uniform, and I’m a bit stuck. It’s in an office, quite smart, but not High Office Wear. I like my personal clothes to be a bit quirky or unusual: a common outfit is shortish skirt+coloured tights+metallic/glittery boots. Which would not be appropriate. I don’t want to look girly, and I definitely don’t want to look sexy (like pencil skirts and heels aren’t the vibe of the place, and also I would feel uncomfortable wearing them) So I guess, what are your wardrobe essentials? How do you build a working wardrobe?

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      I wear a lot of quirky printed shirts (what I think you might call buttondowns?) and cute jewellery with sensible trousers. E.g. navy trousers and a shirt with squirrels printed on it.

    2. Dizzy Steinway*

      PS that might not go over okay in every workplace though.

      One thing that can really help is to search Pinterest. There’s loads of inspiration on there.

      1. Emi.*

        Be careful with Corporette, though. It’s mostly for high-earning lawyers, and the prices and formality reflect that. Also, because it’s all about clothes, it can make you can start thinking too much about clothes if you read it too often. (I used to read it regularly and had to stop when I started worrying that my shoelaces were unserious.)

        1. Claudia M.*

          I love the shoelaces comment.

          I have HAD that thought!

          I am glad to not be alone, thank you!

          I’ve also worried about:
          dog hair
          nail polish
          length of nails (mine are always really short – are they too short?!?)
          phone case
          purse design
          HAIR CLIP COLOR/DESIGN
          shoe design
          jewelry (I wear none – should I start to avoid being out of place? What pieces should I wear?!?)
          etc.

          I swear I thought I was alone with these thoughts and simply paranoid.

    4. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would pick up some affordable basics – black or beige trousers and relatively plain crewneck sweaters or tops/cardigans to rotate through until I got a better sense of the office clothing culture. I like Ann Taylor, Gap, and Banana Republic for my own work wardrobe, especially since they are always having 40% sales online, though everyone’s individual sense of what’s affordable or reasonable will vary.

    5. Emi.*

      My advice is to go with “quite smart” for your staples (jackets, pants, etc.) and “a bit quirky” for your accessories (scarves, earrings, etc.). You can overlap them, too, like a traditionally-cut shirt in a quirky print. If your basics (and your silhouette) are smart and standard, your quirky accessories are more likely to look business stylish rather than just odd.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      There’s all kinds of info out there about building capsule wardrobes, but I basically follow a few rules: neutral bases (I prefer black and gray), colorful tops/accents, fun accessories. I love scarves, for instance, so I will wear black jeans with a neutral top or a black dress and a very brightly-colored scarf. My general rule is to keep the quirk factor to accessories and out of base pieces (though I have several tops with cool patterns that, upon closer look, turn out to be something other than what they appear– I’m wearing one with zebras right now, but you wouldn’t know it was a zebra pattern unless you realllly looked).

      In your case, you might want to go a little longer with the skirts, but you also may not have to. However, what I would do is stick to either dark skirts and colorful tights, or colorful skirts and dark tights. Keep your boots/shoes neutral so you can wear them with several different outfits. Expand your collection of statement necklaces or bracelets or scarves, but keep wacky headpieces to a minimum. No really tall fascinators in the office. :)

    7. Female-type person*

      My rule (business casual workplace, as an attorney I choose to skew to the dressier end of that) is that ONE quirky or splashy or bold item is ok for work, if everything else is plain. So: textured tights with a plain black skirt and simple top. A bold necklace with black pants and a solid top. Leopard pumps with a plain skirt and simple top. I would advise zero skirts above the knee unless worn with same color tights, and zero mid-thigh skirts ever, save the glitter boots for weekends. With my “one thing” rule, you won’t feel like a drone, and you’ll gradually internalize your new rules. The other thing I do is I only buy black bottoms and black shoes (ok, you got me on the leopard pumps, but I love them a lot and they are a very late addition) and mostly, solid tops. If all your tops go with black, you can practically get dressed in the dark and be fine. Add some black cardigans and some jackets that, while also black, are a texture, and you are good to go. When you can branch out, add things like black and white print pants, or a skirt that isn’t solid black, but that functions like a solid black skirt, like a black and gray geometric.

    8. gwal*

      If you have some nice neutral, quality pants (2-3 pairs all in black or in a few neutral colors) and some sober cardigans (navy, burgundy, black, brown, dark purple), then you can wear a kooky top and/or unusual shoes and it will still look business casual. I’m not particularly quirky in my dress sense but I do follow this format and have been able to wear, for example, a metallic silver-spattered top under a blue cardigan with black pants and black shoes, with nary a curious look from my coworkers.

    9. Spoonie*

      Congrats on the job! I like to maximize my clothing by keeping a limited color palette. I’ve also finally convinced myself that no matter how cute the dress/skirt is, I will not wear it enough to warrant purchasing it, so I am 98% trousers/slacks with a rotating cast of button-downs, sweaters, blouses, etc. A couple different accessories, and I’m set. You might try ModCloth for some quirk. And I second the Corporette comment. And for the love of all things holy, don’t feel like you need fifty different completely separate looks — I made that mistake at first and I wish someone had smacked some sense into me.

      1. justsomeone*

        ModCloth just got by Jet.com/Walmart fyi. :(
        BUT If that doesn’t bug you, there’s a groupon on right now for $100 for $50.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Well, that explains why they’ve had a lot of cheap looking stuff on their site lately.

    10. justsomeone*

      I’m lazy. My office is on the Business side of Business casual, so I live in sheath dresses and cardigans/blazers. I have about 10 dresses and 5 cardigans and most of them can be mixed and matched. Each of my dresses can be worn with at least 2 of the cardigans/blazers and each cardigan/blazer can go with at least two of my dresses. I have some variety in how I can mix it up, but essentially I can just shove my hands in my closet and blindly grab at what’s in there and have a high likelihood of coming out with an outfit. I can then further mix it up with different shoes, tights, jewelry, makeup or hairstyles. I have two sets of flats and two sets of boots I regularly wear, and one set of black wedges and a pair of nude pumps. I’m generally set.

      Over the last four years, I’ve retired a few dresses and replaced them with something new and fresh. I do also keep a small collection of skirts and tops for when I really want to mix it up or need to dress fancier. (Executing a meeting the CEO is going to be at where I know I’ll be visible to the leadership team, for example.)

    11. Emilia Bedelia*

      A major cornerstone of my wardrobe is black and white prints- B+W goes with so many colors, and I think the combo of color + black and white always looks sharp and professional.
      I have about 5 different skirts/pants, 4-5 shirts, and a few different scarves that have some type of black and white print, along with a variety of solid colored cardigans,pants, tops, and scarves. My formula tends to be 1 print, 1 color, and 1 neutral.

      To be honest, I didn’t really intentionally build my wardrobe around black and white, but I realized at some point that it’s extremely easy to work with, and is still more interesting than an all neutral/all black wardrobe.

      I also have 2 plain black dresses that I wear almost every week on “lazy days”- it’s insane how easy a black dress + black boots + colorful necklace is. If you really want something foolproof, a black dress is the best way to go.

    12. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      I’d stock a few basic pieces – black or grey slacks – and a few simple blazers in various colors, the have fun with your shirt and accessories. Work-wear doesn’t have to be boring! My coworker is wearing white jeans today – and he just spilled coffee in an uncomfortable place.

    13. Moonpie*

      I’ve probably recommended this here before, but I really like http://www.theviviennefiles.com for suggestions on taking a well-considered set of basics and mixing/matching them into many varied outfits. Accessories, prints, colors, etc. can add a little personal flair.

    14. Carolyn*

      I get so much mileage out of tights+skirt+cardigan/sweater. Feminine but not girly-girl, comfortable and easily adaptable for year round wear. I do have flats and dressy shoes, but I find that so often I wind up wearing my Doc Maarten Double T-strap Maryjanes (they are black leather) – kind of punches up the look, makes it a little quirkier, but not outrageous. There really isn’t much of a dress code around here (most people not in the higher levels of management tend to wear jeans) so those shoes are not a problem for me, YMMV. I also wear a lot of dresses – I always know my top and bottom match and I feel like I can get even more adventurous with the color since it’s a dress – I have this one purple dress (fit and flare with black accent stripes at the bottom) that I wear with a black cardi and it is an OUTRAGEOUS purple, but with the black sweater and accents, paired with black tights and shoes, it looks smart instead of overly funky.

    15. Woman of a Certain Age*

      I always remember showing up on the first day of a new job in what I thought was professional dress, a skirt suit with a white blouse under the jacket and low-heeled shoes. (I guess I was a bit dowdy.) Up walks one of my co-workers and he says, “Howdy, Ma’am. You the new school marm?”

      1. Cher Horowitz*

        Wow! That was so unbelievably nasty of your coworker! Sounds like you were dressed pretty business like from your description.
        What did your other coworkers wear?

  41. rageismycaffeine*

    One of my employees applied for another job within the university system where we work. It’s a long story, but I knew about it as soon as she put in the application, and was waiting patiently for her to come tell me. She did, the day before her interview, and then casually mentioned that she’d put me down as a reference. As in, a professional reference, not as in “yes, you can contact my current manager.” I told her she really shouldn’t do that without asking the reference first, and got a sort of generic “I knowww” in response.

    The thing is, I’m also a reference for another person (former colleague and good friend) who also applied for the same job. He actually asked me first! Is this a conflict of interest? Should I tell my current employee that I can’t serve as a reference for her because I’m a reference for another applicant? Is it normal to be a reference for multiple people applying for the same role?

    1. Amber Rose*

      It shouldn’t matter. A reference is just being asked to vouch for the work quality and ethic of the person. You can do that for more than one people. It’s up to the company which one to choose, not you, so it’s not like you should be expected to make a judgement call.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      I believe Allison has addressed this specific problem, and it’s fine–you aren’t screening your acquaintances and then recommending only one person, just passing on what you know about various people’s strengths and weaknesses on the job. If honesty means you write “Alex is exceptional at A, B, and C” and “Chris fulfilled their job duties” that’s what it is.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        I actually went looking through the archives but didn’t find anything – I’ll have to look again! Thanks for this.

  42. Amber Rose*

    I’m sort of panicking about this audit I have to do next week. And the contact I have hasn’t been making it better. Every time I email him, he sends me two emails back. The first one is antagonistic, and the second one is reassuring. Or like, what I would have said. For example, email 1 is: “do you realize you’ve picked all our new people to interview?” And then 30 seconds later “Well, it should be OK since you can explain it like X in your notes.” I feel sort of left out of a conversation that is just between me and him. 0_O

    I feel like I might be being made fun of a little, since this is my first external audit and the dude has been doing them for over a decade. I also look like I’m 15, and there’s nothing I can do about that. I need to bring a lot of materials with me, do you think it would look too ridiculous to put them all in a backpack?

    1. justsomeone*

      If you’re worried about coming across as young, a backpack will work against you. Do you have a large tote you can use instead? A professional looking tote or big purse will come across as more mature than a backpack.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I don’t. In my usual day to day activities, I don’t care that I look young, so I literally don’t even have anything like a professional wardrobe anymore. I’m less concerned with appearing young than I am with appearing… incompetent, I guess? Or foolish. Like, would you have second thoughts/make complaints if you were sent someone carrying an oversize backpack to do an audit? I don’t want to make trouble for my certifying agency by having these people question and argue with everything I say.

        On the other hand, I have to balance that with the material needs of this work. I need a LOT of equipment. Plus several giant binders worth of reference materials, and ideally my laptop.

        1. Minerva McGonagall*

          I’d say it depends on the backpack. Solid black canvas would be fine, or dark gray, brown or navy, but nothing brighter than that.

        1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

          More like a rolling laptop bag. Squared and a bit boxy, but not exactly like luggage.

          1. Amber Rose*

            The only one of those I’ve got is sky blue with flowers on it. It was a gift.

            I’m not sure if that’s better or worse than a backpack.

  43. Ayla K*

    I also want to share a small victory: after spending last weekend thinking about how I should work on my resume (since I’m being underpaid and overworked at CurrentJob) I got calls from TWO recruiters on Tuesday. I didn’t even change or update anything yet! I guess I just put job-seeking vibes into the universe.

  44. Resume vs. CV*

    I’ve read this blog enough to gather that “resume” and “cv” are the same thing (I think). But how the heck did CV come into play??? And why is it used????
    I don’t plan on using either anytime soon, as I’m perfectly happy in my job, but it’s a little thing that bugs me because I don’t get it! HA!
    Thanks!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Not the same thing. CV is used in the UK and in academia in the U.S. In the U.S., a CV is a much, much longer document with more detail.

      That said, sometimes people don’t realize that and use them interchangeably.

    2. Murphy*

      CV is typically MUCH longer, and is really a list of pretty much everything professional you’ve ever done. Very common in academia. I’m not an academic, but I work in academia and it’s not unusual for them to be 30 pages or more. They include things like complete lists of publications, students mentored, talks given, etc.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Yep. I’ve heard well-establsihed and well-published professors literally can have CVS that run into 100(s) of page, if they count every book, article, book chapter, conference paper, invited lecturer, editing position, committee position, etc. they ever, ever, ever did…

        1. Can't Sit Still*

          The longest CV I’ve ever seen was over 500 pages. The summary alone was about 20 pages long. Granted, he’d started his career in 1956, and he’d been successful in his chosen field. It was practically an encyclopedia entry for the progress of knowledge in the field.

    3. Amber Rose*

      They’re not quite the same, although they tend to be used interchangeably. CV stands for curriculum vitae, and is usually longer than a resume. I think they’re mostly used by academic types, since they would include lists of publications and more detail than a typical resume.

    4. TotesMaGoats*

      CV and resume aren’t, technically, the same thing. CV or curriculum vitae comes from academia and is the “resume” that professors tend to you. At least in the US, anyone outside of academia using or referencing a CV would be weird. In other parts of the world, it might be different. However, much of the content is the same. CV’s do tend to include curriculum development, research and speaking stuff more than a traditional resume might. It also tends to be much longer as it can be more of a full record of what you’ve done while resumes often aren’t a record of ALL THE THINGS YOU”VE DONE.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      CV stands for curriculum vitae and it’s generally used in academic circles. A CV can include personal info and frequently includes a list of publication credits. It’s typically a lot more in depth and longer than a resume.

      A resume is a snapshot of your skills and experience.

    6. Worker anonymous*

      CVs are used mostly in academic settings and have set formats, usually with a place to list your publications, presentations, and various academic endeavors that matter to academia in terms of your professorial rank.

    7. KL*

      There’e not quite the same thing. IME in the US, you see CVs more with academic work, and they tend to be much, much longer. Most academics add publications, presentations, graduate students advised, and things like that.

  45. creatively confused*

    Does anyone here work in the art/cultural/creative industries?

    What is the appropriate amount of ‘expectation-setting’ for young people who want to get into such industries?

    I sometimes watch award shows where a winner would fill their speech about self-belief, perseverance, not giving in to nay-sayers etc., and those are beautiful moments and I understand why people become so inspired and touched by such things. But the reality still remains that the vast majority of people – no matter how much belief they have or how much effort they put in – just won’t make it to that level of success. And the non-success stories don’t get told because obviously they have no platform. Then you have movies like LaLaLand which further perpetuates this sort of view.

    Now if a young person says they dream of being an actor or singer, I certainly wouldn’t want to discourage that, but the cost of such a pursuit is really way out of proportion to the expected outcomes. I’ve heard some successful actors scoff that they ignored their parent’s pleas that they get a degree or vocational training (alongside pursuing their creative talent) but again, they are the minority.

    So if someone (who potentially needs your support) says ‘I want to take a year off to work on my novel’ or ‘to concentrate on auditions’ or something along those lines…what is the appropriate level of support to give? Especially considering you wouldn’t have (at the outset) any reliable gauge of exactly how ‘good’ they might be?

    1. SophieChotek*

      I have tried to get work in creative industries with not much success..=(

      I think if someone wants to take a year off to write the next great American novel or whatever…I think it depends on finances (can one afford to do this) and just communications on expectations. So you write the novel, but then it takes X time to market it. What if no one publishes it. Or it gets published but no one buys it. Is the person planning on going back to work after a year, even if they are not done with the novel, or it never got sold or whatever. In some ways taking time (off) to pursue a dream (writing a novel, trying to break into the film industry, etc.) is maybe not different than taking time off to recharge…I guess I am trying to say — does the person who might have to financially carry that burden want to support the other person? Have they agreed and have clear understanding of expectations? What happens if one year turns into two…or three…

      1. Effie*

        Yup, money’s a big thing. I’ve been a dance teacher for about 3 years and have always had a day job.

        I actually heard two parental lines in children’s movies recently that I cheered (of course, in the end, the movie still supported the protagonist “following their dreams”):
        “Kung Fu Panda”
        /after Mr. Ping tells Po he once had a crazy dream to run away to learn to make tofu instead of taking up the family tradition of selling noodles/
        Po: Why didn’t you?
        Mr. Ping: Because it’s a stupid dream!

        “Zootopia”
        Stu: Judy, you every wonder how your mom and me got to be so darn happy? […] Well, we gave up on our dreams, and we settled.

        Happiness is not overrated to me!

        1. Lil Lamb*

          There’s this really good young adult book called “Up to this Pointe” about a young ballerina mourning her dream: she doesn’t have the right body/enough talent for ballet and hard work isn’t enough. It’s a brilliant book and really sells the message about managing dreams with expectations

          1. fposte*

            Oh, I *love* that book. I’m an Antarctica buff so I liked that part too, but it really was a good look at somebody who’s really good but doesn’t make the cut.

        2. Effie*

          I just realized the “Zootopia” quote I was thinking of was actually “It’s fine to have dreams! Just so long as you don’t believe in them too much.”

    2. anon just in case*

      There was a great article a few years ago that I wish I could find for you. It was by a writer who said that the most of the successful people in the arts had a support network to finance them and their “dream”. That they didn’t have to work so they could spend time writing or auditioning or making music because someone else was paying the bills, and that’s a privilege of social class that’s always absent in these success stories (the opposite examples that some people like to cling on are the success stories of people who make it without any financial support, but those are very rare). The article made a great point about how it contributes to the “arts are for the rich” mindset and how even though the arts are important, a good portion of success stories only happen because someone is from an upper middle class or upper class family who wouldn’t lose much if they decided to take a year off and not do anything anyway. It’s a mark of privilege that a lot of people don’t recognize.

      I think the arts are really important, but I worked with fiction authors for a very long time and a lot of the ones who wrote with no other job had partners or families with a lot of money. A very large majority of the authors I worked with had actual jobs and they wrote before work, after work, on the weekends, etc. They couldn’t afford to take time off to work on their novel (because unless you’re a major author like Stephen King or J.K. Rowling, writing a novel doesn’t pay much at all). Even Stephen King worked while he wrote and I know there are other successful authors who have a main job in addition to writing.

      I used to see query letters or get stories from people who took a year off to write and that doesn’t really mean anything in the publishing world. It’s just a sign of financial privilege. My own parents refused to support me financially when I said I wanted to take time off to write and I tried it for awhile before realizing it was rough. Much rougher than working a 9-5 job and writing in the mornings or on the weekends. I appreciate their support in me achieving my dream, but as an adult, I now appreciate the advice they gave me about being realistic. Having worked in the publishing industry also opened my eyes to the fact that I could have taken years off to finish a novel, but that doesn’t mean it’ll get published or I’ll make money from it. I’d say a very large percentage of people never get published and of those who do, only a small percentage make money off their novels.

      And to be honest, you probably should know how good they’ll be before you offer support. If someone wants to take a year off to audition or play music or write, they should have been doing these things before so you have some gauge. Someone who decides to take a year off to write but has never written before is…..worrying.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Yep. I know exactly ONE full-time novelist and he also has multiple irons in the fire, and he’s been writing for more than twenty years. He only makes roughly $4000 more a year than I was making at Exjob. And this is with a genre Grand Master Award, which he shares with Stephen King,among others. :\

        Every other published writer I know has a day job. And it’s funny, but I tend to get more writing done when I have something else to occupy my time than I do sitting here unemployed all day. Maybe it’s the little bit of pressure that comes from only having so much time to write, or maybe it’s the dream of not having to work (being unemployed is not the same).

        1. anon just in case*

          I’ve worked with a few authors who are full-time novelists, but they come from money or have spouses who can take care of them. I also know a few people who did take time off to write and couldn’t do it because they never realized how hard it is to ONLY focus on writing.

          When it comes down to it, a lot of people don’t make money off writing because it’s a fickle market. Also a lot of contracts state you have to reach a certain number of sales to even see royalties, and most authors, especially first time authors, don’t reach those numbers.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            I bet I could do it–the most distracting thing about doing it like this is worrying about finding a job, learning the job, is it gonna suck, will I be able to live, etc. I’d at least like the chance to try! :P

      3. TL -*

        A lot of romance writers (whose bios I’ve read) are stay at home moms whose kids are mostly school age, so they’re past the super time-consuming years and have time to write while the kiddos are at school and the spouse is at work.

        1. anon just in case*

          One of my best friends is a popular romance novel reviewer and the stories she has about some of those authors are sooooo interesting. Way more interesting than the stories I have about my authors.

          Romance tends to be a different situation all together, though. It’s a world of its own within the publishing industry.

    3. Dizzy Steinway*

      I think the best advice you can give them is to talk to people in that field. I’ve seen this go both ways: I’ve known people who were discouraged from studying, say, graphic design or games design* as they were told that wouldn’t make them employable which wasn’t true, and people who think you can write one book and be set for life.

      *Pop fact: people with games design degrees are actually in demand e.g. some are employed in the military. People in that field tell me ‘just do computer science, you can specialise later’ isn’t necessarily good advice which is why it’s important to get field specific advice from relevant professionals.

      1. esra (also a Canadian)*

        Ha! I actually became a graphic designer because I didn’t want to be the starving kind of artist.

    4. NoMoreMrFixit*

      The reality of “creative” jobs like writing is that you spend more time marketing yourself to editors and publishers than you do actually writing. All the published authors I’ve ever spoken with had a partner who held down a conventional job with benefits. Plus most writers I met taught at least part time or otherwise had something else going on besides writing fiction.

      For musicians/actors/dancers it’s auditions instead but same idea. More time spent hustling up work than the actual creative side of things. I spent 12 years as an organist. Never went beyond part time work due to lack of opportunities. That and I was a better computer geek than musician to be truthful. And all of my gigs were due to being a church organist/choir director.

    5. DevAssist*

      Ohh… yeah, that can be hard.

      FWIW, I know some creative types(writers and actors) that do have jobs in addition to pursuing their passion, but I also know some that have seriously minimized their expenses in order to live at a lower income so they can be creative.

      It’s always my hope that creative people are fully aware of the odds and choose to pursue their passion because they love it, not because it could bring a super slim chance of a $$ windfall.

    6. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      Having worked for both a professional athletic team and the Athletic department for a Div I NCAA school, I like to refer to this link that demonstrates just how many NCAA student-athletes “go pro”: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/estimated-probability-competing-professional-athletics

      The NCAA also has another graphic somewhere that I can’t find right now that actually takes the numbers from elementary school to further show the disparity in those who dream and those who accomplish. But I found the high school graphic (http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/probability-competing-beyond-high-school) – 6.8% of high school football players go on to play football in NCAA Div I-III. Of that 6.8%, 1.5% go pro.

      I know professional sports is not your arts/creative industry, but the parallels are similar. It is very hard to break into. But just like athletes need to train and work with a cadre of professionals (athletic trainers for medical support, dietitions, personal trainers, skills coaches, films, etc.), so do artists. Those who go at it alone rarely succeed. It is the ones who make an effort to learn all they can who succeed. The ones who work odd jobs to pay for lessons or classes or what not.

      In your case, whether they are good or not is irrelevant. Support them by encouraging them to find the people who can help train them. Not the cheap ones trying to take their money, but the ones who will give them concrit. And most especially encourage them to LISTEN to concrit. Encourage them to go for their dreams in a realistic manner; support themselves in a way that allows them to pay for auditions and classes and materials. If someone wants to write a novel, how are they going to pay their rent/mortgage? What about health insurance? What about their internet connection or the repair to their laptop or their backup device? You don’t need to know those answers, but you should tell them to ask themselves those questions and be realistic about how to approach it.

    7. Tea*

      If you’re referring to support for kids or younger siblings, basically someone who might ask for your financial support, you should be able to have some idea of how much time they are already devoting to working on their creative pursuits. They don’t need to be wildly prolific, but they need to be DOING IT. It’s fine that you may not have a reliable gauge of “how good they are” at their art of choice– maybe you have no aesthetic sense, a tin ear, are colorblind etc. But, like anon just in case says above, someone who doesn’t already write, draw, make music, or sing deciding to take a year off to “work on their novel” or “record their hit album” is…. really very worrying.

      What I would say/do is “Alright, sounds great. Let’s make a plan for you for this year of hard word and artistic productivity, and figure out how you’ll pay for all your bills. And then a backup plan for if this doesn’t pan out. And then a backup plan for that backup plan.” Lest they think you’re already setting them up to “plan for failure,” you can let them know that everyone should have a backup plan, from the most ambitious of soon-to-be-surgeon med students to business people planning on going into Wall Street. It’s just that folks who pursue the arts need to plan, budget, and work even more diligently and carefully if they want their creative pursuits to pay the bills.

      2. anon just in case*

        Yeah, that’s what I was trying to get at above. The arts are like sports in that you need to be actively practicing or training before you decide to take time off to work on that. Very few people can just suddenly pick up a book and write a novel or master an instrument without years of work beforehand. I don’t know what OP’s situation is, but there’s a big difference between supporting someone who’s been doing something for years taking time off to master/finish it, and someone who’s never done their particular artistic endeavor before.

      3. TL -*

        I read an article (that, of course, referenced a study) that argued that having a backup plan makes you more likely to fail – and I tend to agree with it. I think you should plan for success in what you want to succeed in – and in doing so, come up with a timeline and come up with strategies for supporting yourself, because that’s all part of becoming successful – but don’t waste time and energy developing complex backup plans. Eventually you’ll either succeed or decide you want a different version of success (the kind that comes with a regular paycheck and spending money) and alter your plans accordingly.

        1. Tea*

          That seems a bit counterintuitive to me, but maybe this is because doing the planning and having a backup has always made me more confident and certain in my pursuit of my goals. Everyone is different, and I can see why “planning for failure” is a thing. On the other hand, though, I think that abandoning a chosen career path (especially the arts) can be much more dicey than “succeed, or choose another version of success.”

          A lot of creative pursuits simply don’t have much in the way of transferable skills and applicability to other jobs and industries. If one doesn’t plan (and have a backup plan), the consequences might vary anywhere from “annoyance and some sadness, as you give up your current dreams in favor of doing X other job” to “being destitute and impoverished, because you couldn’t pursue career in underwater basket weaving and there’s very little you can do to persuade would be employers that your expertise counts for anything.”

    8. Office Plant*

      Support people. Hard work pays off. Success comes more from doing the work than anything else. A lot of people achieve short team success from money, social connections, or copying what lesser known though talented people are doing. Those tend not to be people whose work has a lasting impact, although they may get any amount of fame and recognition for a period of time. And it’s not your place to judge how “good” people are outside of your own opinion. That’s always subjective.

      Ok, from the financial side of things. In the arts, almost everyone has a day job. Even very famous people have day jobs. There are obviously exceptions, like well known film actors. But most people are either employed by someone to do their art (thereby sacrificing some degree of creative freedom and independence) or they have another means of income. But as you become more successful, you can use your art as a qualification for a supplemental means of income. Like teaching. And some people get really good at downsizing their cost of living so they can do art full time.

      But the idea that it’s extremely competitive is partly a myth. The reality is that a lot of people, for whatever reason, don’t do the work and keep doing it. Or don’t put enough thought into what they’re doing. Or have unrealistic ideas about what it means to be successful. It’s a long, slow process. But everyone’s art makes a lasting contribution to the world. So support people.

    9. Thlayli*

      I think the key issue here is they are potentially looking for your support. Which makes me think you are talking of a situation where a young adult child is looking for parental support for this. Emotional support absolutely always be there for your kids even if you disagree with their choices. Financial support is another story.

      If a young adult with no dependents can afford to take a year out of study/career to follow their dreams and make ends meet by working in a coffee shop then I say absolutely go for it. If my kid wanted to do that I would happily let them stay at home and charge them probably less rent than market rates. But I would charge them rent.

      If a young adult wants to take a year out of their career/study and not work at all and stay in their parents house and eat their parents food and not pay any rent at all and expect pocket money while they follow their dreams I say haha not in my house buster!

      We’d all love to take a year out and try to see if we are as good as we think we are, but we don’t have the right to expect our partners or parents to pay our way while we do it.

      Maybe I’m being too harsh – it depends on your circumstances. If I could easily afford it (like it I won the lotto) I could see myself saying to a child “ok you have one year of free rent and groceries to do this but I want to see you putting in the hours. After a year you go back to college if it doesn’t work out. If you start spending all day sleeping and all night playing Xbox then this agreement is null and void and you start paying rent buster”.

      I could be totally off here and you’re not thinking of this type of thing at all. At the other end of the spectrum if a parent with 3 young children and a mortgage wants their partner to become the sole breadwinner and take complete financial responsibility for a year while they follow their dreams I say you’re being selfish AF dude. Wait till u can afford it then do it. Or cut back to 4 days a week and do it part time or something. But don’t just quit ur job and expect your partner to pick up the slack while you’re writing your novel.

    10. Christian Troy*

      I don’t personally work in the arts, but I went to a university with a pretty good theater/music department so there was a fair amount I heard and saw. I think the people from my university who have been successful on tv and film have been because they started in high school with going to auditions in LA and NYC. They still have a college degree and other skills to fall back on for work, but they kind of built up their career prior to entering college. It doesn’t mean people can be discovered at an older age, but there’s a certain network they started building up and could get some kind of work.

      In terms of support, I’m not really sure what I would do? I don’t think I would encourage it honestly unless they had built up enough of a portfolio or had enough industry contacts. Or I’d tell them to work part time?

    11. Ann O.*

      I’m a semi-pro performance artist, and I have a bunch of artist friends at varying degrees of day job having to full-time-bills-paying.

      My feeling is the appropriate level of support is time bounded and within your personal comfort zone. The odds are heavily against the time spent focusing on the arts paying off in the sense of taking the person to full-time-bills-paying. But it can pay off heavily in terms of getting marketing collateral done or skills building. When I was unemployed for 3 months, my hooping abilities (I’m a semi-pro circus artist) took a HUGE leap forward. They’ve been pretty stagnant since. I also caution at judging based on goodness because you really can’t know. There’s not the direct correlation between talent and success that we’d like to believe, and sometimes people transform when they have a time period to focus.

      So if you have the support to give and want to give it, go ahead and do it. It is likely to be beneficial in some way or another. But set a time limit to it and be very up front and clear. If you don’t have the support/don’t want to give it, don’t. No one is owed anything and it is unlikely you’ll be responsible for someones dreams failing.

      Mostly what I’d say is be emotionally supportive. People pursuing the arts–no matter how good they are–will have plenty of external feedback that they’re talented hacks who should give up. They don’t need it from friends/families. Also, discourage debt. The odds are so against debt being worth it.

    12. AcademiaNut*

      I work in academia, in a field that also gets starry-eyed youngsters, and I’ve fallen down on the side of being bluntly honest about what going into the field really means, good and bad. Not bitter, but realistic, and with real-life examples to illustrate things – for example, I talk about where people I personally know have ended up, and why they made the decisions they did. And I very strongly emphasize the need for a backup or exit plan at all times.

      For specific examples, it would depend a bit on circumstances, and how strong a foolish choice is likely to impact their lives.

      So if someone old me “I want to take a year off to work on my novel” I’d tell them straight that it’s a really bad idea to quit their day job before they get successful, but if someone told me that the had written a novel and want to self publish, that would be different, because the potential damage is a lot less.

      But it’s been my experience that if someone is starry-eyed enough, they will truly and deeply believe that *they* are the exception, and there is not a lot you can do to convince them what reality is like. They’re talented and smart and work really hard, and of course they’ll get there. It usually takes years and a lot of life experience before someone can accept that they can be talented and smart and work hard and still not get what they want, or the difference between being good at something and being really great, or what the sacrifices they need to make really mean for their life and relationships.

  46. Cruciatus*

    This isn’t the weirdest thing ever, but it was weird for me. I applied internally and interviewed for another department at my current workplace a couple of weeks ago. This week I had an email from the director of the other department asking me to come in to discuss my interest in the position confidentially. I was really nervous–more nervous than for the interview! But then he asked me about my current supervisor not being listed as a reference. Is it weird I didn’t use her for an internal job? I told her about the interview a few days before so she knows about it and said something about being ready for a call. The director seemed to suggest there were university policies about talking to a current supervisor for internal transfers, but when I spoke to others who have moved internally they said it was really odd. I didn’t really know what to do as I was not expecting this to be the focus (was expecting salary, or days, or why I wanted the position) so I told him she does know and I think it’d be OK to talk with her, though I don’t receive a lot of feedback, positive or negative, so I can’t be certain of anything (this last part was probably bad to say, but I have a nervous talking habit). But I just don’t don’t think it was weird not to use her, but since they called me in, it seems they think otherwise. Hoping I didn’t blow it.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I don’t think that’s weird at all. I work for a university and would not use my current boss as a reference if I applied for jobs because I wouldn’t want her knowing about my job hunt.

  47. Worker anonymous*

    I have a question about BCCs. I manage someone who occasionally BCC’s me on his emails. I am not sure why, sometimes it feels like he is doing that so I know he is taking care of an issue, but this is not a worry of mine. Sometimes, he does that with some other workers who tend to be very aggressive and rude and I understand that better. If those people do respond aggressively/rudely I am not copied on their response because I was just bcc’d. Then I miss the “meat” of the conversation. Should I ask him to mostly copy me openly? It could have the effect of reducing the aggression, but probably not, these people are just toxic towards everyone but it also escalates things in a way as people are often defensive when someone else is copied – often these toxic people will do exactly that, copying my boss for example, when we have not even talked about an issue.

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      I think it might be an idea to start by asking him why he’s doing it – just in case the reason includes something you might not have thought of.

    2. Anonymous Poster*

      Maybe this individual is giving you the first email so that if you get a complaint later from someone on that email about how your individual was unreasonable, etc. that you have the necessary context?

      But that I have to start with ‘maybe’ means it’s probably a better idea to go ask what’s up instead of playing the guessing game.

    3. Worker anonymous*

      Thank you. Sometimes I take too narrow a view and forget the basics, like asking the person involved.

    4. Em too*

      Could be a way to update you without you then getting copied in to all the follow-ups? I agree, just ask, and then let him know how you’d prefer he handled whatever it was.

  48. Least Complicated*

    I’m having a dilemma and I’m not sure if my instinct is right or if I’ve just been dealt a bad hand and have to play it through. I’ve been with my company for over 5 years. In that time my department has been restructured three times. It’s the last two that are causing me issues. About 2 years ago my position was eliminated and I was demoted to a senior associate. I was told it was not performance related. After that I was reassured by my boss that I was still her #2 and important to the department. I believed it, because they certainly could have gotten rid of me when they eliminated my position. Recently, the department was restructured again with a new management position and it was given to another colleague. Once again, I was told that that I did excellent work, but that the new position required skills that better suited my colleague. I read all the advice and I can understand that … up to a point. When I met with my boss (now grandboss) I asked what skills I should develop further, he told me that he had no constructive feedback for me. That I did a great job. And that he had a vision for how the department should be structured and that he wanted me to play a role in potentially future positions. He has a tendency to sugarcoat things and while I believe he has a vision, about 50% of me thinks I’m just getting the run around and I have no future with the department. I can’t leave due to contractual obligations, but I’m having a hard time not feeling frustrated and upset with this current situation, while trying to remain outwardly positive and supportive of my colleague and now boss.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Are you concerned that they want to get rid of you, or just that they want to keep you exactly where you are and not have you move up? Because it sounds like #2 could be what’s happening.

      1. Least Complicated*

        It’s a little two-fold. I think they’ve had ample opportunity to get rid of me if they wanted to and it’s probably more likely they like me where I am and don’t want me in a managerial position. But, if that’s the case, I feel like there’s going to come a point in time when my lack of mobility will be a detriment. Also, it seems to be a strange business decision to hold on to someone who they believe isn’t capable of developing new skills simply to retain the status quo.

    2. Root*

      All I’m hearing from your managers is a whole lot of lip service. A good trick to figure out someone’s intentions is to make a list of the last five things they’ve DONE, not said. What has your grand boss done lately? Does it point to you having a future in the department?

      1. Least Complicated*

        Five things might be hard, but I’ve gotten great performance reviews and decent raises over the past few years. I was asked which projects I was interested in working on and given several of them. All of which I think points to the fact that I might be well liked or appreciated in my current role, but says nothing about future movement at the moment. Aside from the conversation we had about potentially new opportunities down the road.

    1. MsMaryMary*

      These are a little too close to home: “So sorry that I’m just getting to this now. There were six other people on this e-mail thread and I was hoping that one of them would answer your question and I could just go on living my life.”

      1. Not Karen*

        Haha pretty much every work e-mail I get…

        I’m reminded of that one scene in The Big Bang Theory:
        Sheldon: *arrives at the bar where everyone is hanging out* Sorry I’m late.
        Leonard: What happened?
        Sheldon: Nothing, I just didn’t really want to come.

      2. MsMaryMary*

        I had a conversation with an account executive last week that pretty much went like this:

        AE: Did you see Client’s email this morning? Have you responded?
        Me: We were on the cc: line, so I’m waiting for the people in the To: line respond.
        AE: Really? You’re not going to respond?
        Me: Let’s give it more than three hours.

        I mean, being responsive to client is my job, but calm down (it was not an urgent question, it’s just this AE’s favorite account).

        1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          I want so much to tell people, “when you email all of us, you email none of us. We’re all going to assume someone else will take care of it.” It really is much better to ask a specific person a question.

  50. Eric*

    Is anyone else really weirded out by recruiters emailing you over the weekend?

    I don’t know if it’s me (I’m a millennial and kinda used to hearing about how entitled we are), but it seems strange to get a recruiter email at, say, 9:30 on a Saturday night. Both because it seems like a subtle indicator of unbalanced expectations at that company, and second, because it’s Saturday night and you should be doing SOMETHING fun on your weekend (I’m in tech, so we work standard office job hours).

    Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Some people like to work their own hours — I do, for example. But I save emails as drafts and don’t send them until the next business day because I worry people will conclude what you’re concluding. Not everyone thinks about that though, so I wouldn’t take it as anything conclusive.

      1. Spoonie*

        That was my thinking. Or sometimes I mean to save as a draft and hit send by accident. Then I sit there and hope that the recipient doesn’t look at the timestamp.

      2. Eric*

        That makes a lot of sense. I’m kind of the same way, I don’t like bringing my laptop home, or checking email outside of the office so I sometimes work pretty late, so that when I’m done for the day, I’m Done. Coworkers and clients know that’s just my style, and I deliver, so it’s never been questioned or anything.

        IMO, it’s only standing out to me here because it’s an internal recruiter. So I’m wondering if they’re telling the truth when they say their work life balance is good, when the recruiter is emailing me at like 10PM all the time.

    2. Turtle Candle*

      I work all kinds of hours, but it’s not because I’m pressured to work a bajillion hours a day/work all weekend/etc. (In fact, I have to get permission to work more than 40 hours a week, technically, although the permission is mostly a formality for me at this point.) It’s because I have very flexible hours, and sometimes I took off early on Friday to do something fun and thus have a few hours to make up over the weekend or something. I certainly could arrange my work such that I never had to work a weekend ever, but often it’s worth it to me to be able to work a short day or two and make up the time, and sometimes I’ll do that at a weird time (Saturday night, as in your example, or sometimes I’ll deliberately get up super early on a regular weekday, or sometimes if I want to have a chat with someone in our Beijing office I’ll deliberately skew my hours to match their timezone, not because I have to but because it’s nice to be able to get them on the phone rather than do everything by email).

      But I do try to schedule my emails so that they go out during normal business hours, specifically so that people don’t get a little freaked that I’m working at 4am on a Tuesday or 9pm on a Saturday–I may freely choose to do so, but I don’t want newer coworkers to feel like they’re expected to do so.

    3. voluptuousfire*

      When I was job hunting, I did keep an eye on when the emails were sent. If they were sent at odd hours but from California (I’m on the east coast), I disregarded it. Otherwise if it was consistently at 11 pm during the week on the east coast, I’d make a mental note of it.

    4. Christian Troy*

      I got an email from a hiring manager Friday at 6:45pm wanting to schedule an interview for the next day. It really bothered me.

      1. Eric*

        That is very weird. I’m guessing they didn’t even acknowledge that Saturday morning is a weird time for an interview?

  51. TotesMaGoats*

    And I’ve got an actual question.

    My dad will be retiring in June. He was a minister for 30+ years and has spent the past 7+ as a hospice chaplain. If anyone was created to provide support for people/families who are on hospice, it’s my dad. Seriously, he’s really good at it.

    Anyway, what he’s struggling with is that the corp office of his hospice company is basically run by crazy squirrels. I think. That’s the only reason I can think of for the constant changes that clearly weren’t thought out. The amount of turnover. The general poor morale. He’s a super sensitive man. So, he takes a lot of the badly given changes (You are doing X wrong, do it this way), personally. When, of course, they hadn’t told him it was changing. Plus some of the changes really impact the quality of care he tries to provide. He’s the most senior chaplin but not the manager but having to handle personnel issues. Everyone on staff loves him.

    Any coping strategies? He could retire even earlier than that but I know June (his bday for SS $) would be better.

    1. College Career Counselor*

      Some possibilities come to mind:
      1) Have him think of himself as the SME for what he does in the hospice, delivering the best care he can to the people who need his help.
      2) Encourage him to develop a mantra (e.g. 3 more months, 3 more months)
      3) Encourage him to remind himself that the changes without warning do NOT reflect badly on the work he’s doing, but on the (lack of) management by his administration

  52. Mimmy*

    I start my new job next week – I am really nervous because it’s my first regular job in several years.

    One thing I’m nervous about is a repeat of what I went through 10 years ago at a previous job. As I’ve mentioned here before, I have a vision impairment plus other disabilities. I’ve found that when I’m asked about what accommodations would help me do well in a job, I am stumped. At the other job, my supervisor said to let her know if I needed any accommodations. At the time, I only expected to need minor adjustments for my low vision and maybe my hearing. Turns out, I also struggled with multi-tasking and self-confidence in communicating with callers.

    My new supervisor asked me about accommodations last week, and I really couldn’t say – I won’t really know until I see what my duties truly are and what equipment or supplies are normally used.

    The vision-related accommodations are pretty easy to ascertain quickly (and this is an agency that SERVES people with vision loss!!). It’s the hearing and processing disabilities I worry about – this is where I think I struggled in the job 10 years ago. I would hope that now, 10 years later, I’ll be able to ascertain my needs better. I just wonder if it’s okay to discuss additional accommodations down the road if I find that, for example, I’m having trouble hearing students when there is background noise (e.g. other students and instructors).

    I guess I could try to anticipate potential problems before they actually occur, but then that distracts from my goal of just being awesome, lol.

    Positive vibes next week would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      I think it’s totally reasonable to say you need a bit of time in the job before you can work out exactly what you need. But is there anyone who could assess you via occupational health and suggest stuff? I had an assessment to get a slightly different chair due to various health issues and the assessor suggested other stuff I wouldn’t have thought of at the same time.

    3. Jillociraptor*

      Good luck! I know it’s really tricky to ask for things (even though you’re obviously 100% entitled to the accommodations you need!) when you’re starting a new job, so I hope your supervisor and colleagues will be open to helping you explore your new duties and understand what you need to do your best work. Good vibes for you! Please report back!

    4. NoMoreMrFixit*

      I’m finishing the last few weeks of school and job hunting now after being unemployed for a few years. This is a career change for me. Like you I have some disabilities that will get in the way of doing a job. Given I’m headed into a direction that’s new for me I’m making it clear up front that while there are certain things I know I need like volume boosted phone and ergonomic keyboard, there may be issues come up that I am currently unaware of. Predicting every possible problem and accommodation needed just isn’t possible at this stage. Better to keep the communications lines open so the subject can be revisited if needed.

      Some of my limitations occurred during previous jobs and they had to accommodate changes at that point so I don’t see this as anything seriously different. We can’t know everything in advance until we’re actually doing the job for a while.

      Best of luck with the new job. Exciting and scary at the same time.

  53. DD*

    Oy. My great-grand-boss was let go a month ago. Yesterday my grand-boss followed. My boss took the rest of the week and next week off immediately–no communication to our team in the aftermath. Now I’m sitting around terrified that the dominos are going to keep falling and eventually reach me. I went through a lay-off less than a year ago and was unemployed for several months; I don’t know how I would handle it happening again. There’s lots of organizational change happening and the message from (waaaay up) above is all positive but they’re probably not going anywhere…

    1. esra (also a Canadian)*

      That is some tacky business from your boss and company. If they can’t share anything, fine, but at least acknowledge what has happened.

      1. Dave*

        A guy from senior leadership had an impromptu meeting with our department and told us that so-and-so was no longer employed by the company and asked if there were any questions. The answer to every question was “We can’t tell you that for privacy reasons.” So it was pretty much a waste of time. But the whole department is in shock—this guy was very well liked. I never heard anybody have a negative thing to say about him. And he’d been there for 10 years.

        Agree re: my boss. We’re a small team and a lot of us are anxious now. She may not have had any answers but she could have at least shown some leadership and been a presence.

  54. Rebecca*

    Does anyone else work a martyr who would rather complain and be miserable than to accept competent help to get the work done? Any tips to make headway with them? I have several coworkers who are like this. If someone tries to help, they refuse help, if we mention shortcuts and easier ways to do things, they won’t listen, going as far as to say they don’t have time for “fancy” shortcuts, but yet they continue to complain and whine about what they perceive as an excessive workload.

    I have ebbs and flows in my workload (as do many of my coworkers), and I’d gladly pitch in and help, but I’m getting to the point I won’t even offer any longer. And yes, we have pointed this out to our manager, but we get the standard “oh that’s just how Jane is” response. I’ve never understood that mentality. If I’m plodding through something, and someone can show me a streamlined and quicker/easier way, I jump at it! It makes life so much more pleasant!

    1. NW Mossy*

      If you don’t manage these colleagues, you don’t need to make headway with them so much as you need to develop your own strategies to tune them out. You’ve offered assistance and they’ve made it clear that they’re not up for it, and that’s their call. Instead, when they get on the I’m So Overloaded Express, you can say “Sounds rough. I gotta get back to these TPS reports.” It’s not your responsibility to fix their work lives for them, and it’s OK to decline to be their emotional sounding board.

      1. Rebecca*

        Good point. I’m ready to put in headphones and listen to podcasts so I can tune out the complaining. It’s getting old, and it gets on my nerves, especially when they complain about X, I tell them “here’s how I handled it, and I’d be glad to show you how”, they say no, and the next day they start complaining again. I like the “sounds rough” reply!

        1. Mallows*

          Yes on the headphones and podcasts. I travel from office to office within my state, and there are people who seem to wait for me to come around so they can vent at me and take a half hour of my time and theirs to complain about how busy they are. Because most of them are on the way from the reception area to the visitors’ cube, I now call ahead of time for someone to let me in a side door so I’m not even seen by them. I used to feel mildly guilty but I got over it!

  55. Fresh Faced*

    This week I spent a lot of time working on an application for an internship that I thought I had a real chance for, only to discover that I might be disqualified from it because I’m not currently in higher education (graduated a few months ago.) I applied anyway, since I didn’t want to waste my work but I am very annoyed with the situation. The job post never mentioned applicants had to be in further education, this information was on a completely separate “interested in working here?”page. It’s like you couldn’t of added lines the the requirements on the actual job page so people don’t waste their time? Normally I wouldn’t be as mad about this, but I’ve looked at so many entry level opportunities that I am otherwise qualified for but aren’t open to me because I’m not at university. No one seems to want to hire an entry person for a permanent position and it’s super disheartening.

  56. Epsilon Delta*

    Programmers — how much time do you spend actually programming or coding? I would say I spend about 10% of my time coding, and an additional 25% running simple SQL queries (no joins or anything, just simple selects). Perhaps another 25% of the time I am reading code to figure out why a problem is occurring.

    I want to get a sense of whether this is typical. My last job was in a totally different environment and I was programming most days (50% of the time probably). Here I have a couple days a month where I program, tops.

    1. rubyrose*

      So what are you doing the other 40% of the time? What are those simple SQL queries for – analysis, testing? And are you a maintenance programmer, developing new systems, or a combination of both?

      I find the 10% extremely low in either example. Totally maintenance, 50%. Total new development, 65%. Those figures might be low.

    2. Rosemary*

      It really kind of depends on where I am in the process of shipping a new feature (and how much I’m procrastinating that day :P ). But I would say that for every hour of actual coding I do for a new project, there is another hour of architecture discussion/debugging/random overhead like merging branches or testing on integration, waiting for things to compile, etc. And that’s not counting the code reviews I do for other people’s work, or helping out someone else with a bug/architecture question.

      I don’t know what your exact job duties are, but 25% of your time spent running sql queries seems really high for a job labeled Software Engineer, or some such.

      25% of your time reading code doesn’t seem THAT high, though. I think in my case it’s not purely for debugging – most of my time spent looking at code is to get a good feel for the the system as it exists (before I start proposing changes to it) or code reviews.

    3. Jessesgirl72*

      My husband says back when he actually got to program, it was 10% coding, 15% designing, 30-40% documenting/reviewing, and 25% in meetings.

      Now, as a “Senior Engineer” he says 5%, if he’s lucky.

  57. Blue Anne*

    Advice on what to say to a colleague who talks to me like I’m not very smart and have zero experience?

    We have the same title and share responsibilities, but she’s probably twice my age. If I ask her a question, she’ll raise her eyebrows and say “Welllll…” before answering me, as though it’s ridiculous that I need to ask. When she asks me questions, she’ll only give me half the information I need (“Blue Anne, did you deal with that invoicing thing?” when we do hundreds of invoices a month) and again, act like I’m stupid when I ask for clarification.

    It’s reached the point where she actually heard me on the phone posing a question to the agency who’s auditing one of our clients, and came over and aggressively explained to me how to do an audit and would not listen when I tried to stop her by saying I was already doing all the things she was telling me to do. (I’ve BEEN an auditor for a year and a half, which is probably why I was given the project!)

    I think some of it might be that she’s feeling territorial – apparently this audit was reassigned away from her, she used to have pretty much sole responsibility for the big invoicing client, etc. I’m not out to replace her, there’s plenty of work. But I’m sick of the aggression and I never know what to say to her in the moment.

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      I do the same job as someone considerably younger than me. I’m cool with it – we have different skillsets and backgrounds and work well together – but my inner paranoia monkey does sometimes tell me people are comparing us and thinking bad things about me because I’m ‘only’ doing the same job as someone much younger. And yes I know that’s BS, and I squash it down fast (so please nobody jump on me). But I do wonder if this is really about you at all, or more about her.

      Don’t get me wrong; if that is the case she’s handling it really badly. My way of dealing has been to focus on how well my colleague does her job and how much I like working with her. (Put it this way: I’m definitely not acting like your colleague.) Is it at all possible she’s afraid she’s being pushed out?

      As to how to handle her: toddler taming strategies. Be calm but firm.

      1. Blue Anne*

        I absolutely think that it’s about her. I’m getting along really well with most of my other colleagues, I love working here. I can’t imagine that she’s in any real danger of being pushed out (there’s so much work to go around!) but I could understand her being a little annoyed that the youngest person in the office is doing the same work as her.

        I just need to understand how to deal with that beyond being a pushover.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      I really hope that things mellow out and your colleague stops being like this but it seems like that’s unlikely.

      This is probably a marker of my midwestern upbringing, but one thing that has often helped me in situations like this is killing with kindness. I get the sense that she is trying to get under your skin or undermine you, and the best way to fight that is to be relentlessly positive and polite.

      Good luck! This is a really irritating situation.

      1. Natalie*

        There’s a combination of kindness plus dismissiveness that works well in this situation, I think. So with the phone thing, you smile and make eye contact and very nicely say “I’ve got it, thank you so much” and then turn away back to your work. The trick is letting it be awkward.

    3. Dizzy Steinway*

      Another approach you could try is medium chill or grey rock – search online and you’ll get tips.

  58. epilo*

    I’m starting to get tired of being a second-class worker at my job. I started as a graduate student, in my last semester, working very few hours per week. When I graduated (and had nothing lined up because of no luck in my job search), my supervisor said she was happy for me to stay on at a less-than-half-time (LHT) basis, with the understanding that the job was only for this particular project and would never confer benefits. Fine, it’s a job, commute is good, people are great, it’s sort of related to my degree.

    But it’s been over a year now, and while the good things continue to be good (supervisor is amazing – has gotten two raises for me in this time, neither of which I looked for or even knew were possibilities) the way it has evolved has become very frustrating. One of the things my supervisor was able to negotiate for me was an alternating schedule: 60 days at LHT, 90 days at FT. I’ve since realized that how they do this is by officially terminating me in the position and then “rehiring” me immediately at the other schedule. This is explicitly done so that they don’t have to give me benefits. I live in MA, so I still have pretty good options for health insurance (and did even before the ACA because Romneycare) but there are other benefits that I would very much like to have access to.

    I know it’s stupid of me to be annoyed by the situation, given that I explicitly agreed to it, but I had no intention (at that point) of being here this long. I’m currently in the middle of my second 90-day FT stint, and coming to work as much as the regular staff but being denied the same basic information they’re given (they’re closing the kitchen today to clean, so don’t expect to be able to heat up your lunch; basic things like that) or finding about opportunities that are open to me (lunchtime events, for instance) only on the day of are getting to me. I guess I just wanted to rant, so thank you for reading. Someday I’ll write in with something good. :/

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I don’t understand why being a “temporary” FT person means they don’t communicate with you. Could it be as simple as asking to be put on those mailing lists?

      1. epilo*

        Maybe, but it took a year for them to put me on a simple events digest, and I still barely know anyone (and barely anyone knows who I am – I work in a very sequestered area) and I’m hesitant to make waves. Maybe that’s ridiculous of me. I should just ask. I’m just afraid they’re going to say that it’s policy that LHT people are not on the staff list, and then I’ll feel like a dolt. But you’re not wrong.

    2. Anxa*

      Oof! I kind of hear you.

      I am a temp now, which means I’ll likely be fired every few months and rehired. I know its’ what I agreed to, and the lack of benefits doesn’t really bother me much. I’ve never been in a high class job like that, so I’m kind of used to it.

      What does bother me is not having regular staff privileges. For me it’s not email, but staff are exempt from paying library fees. I’m a tutor and sometimes, despite multiple requests to bring their text, my students don’t bring their text. I don’t have a copy of the book, whereas a lot of instructors can either afford their own or have a courtesy copy. Even then, they only teach a few classes, if more than one. I work with over 10+ and I cannot afford to pay 1K for books on this salary. Sometimes I’ll get a student find me and want to start a session, and I have to interrupt it to return the book from the reserve, all because I’m a temp :(

  59. Abigael*

    Just want to hear some thoughts about how normal this situation is:

    I got a verbal job offer on Monday. They said they couldn’t make it official until my background test cleared, which would be 1-2 days. On Thursday, I reached out because I still hadn’t received anything in writing. They said I was their top candidate, but because I lived abroad for one year, the background check could actually take 1-2 weeks. I asked if I could get an official job offer, contingent on my background check going through, and they said they are legally not allowed to do that (the employer is a school in North Carolina).

    I have never had to do a background check for a job before, so I’m just wondering if this is normal, or if there’s some reason to worry. I have already told HR at my current job that I’m planning to leave because they require 60 days notice, and the position in NC will start in May. Now I’m afraid that I may have talked with HR too early, and that the offer could still be pulled for some reason…

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      I work in higher ed in NC and I can tell you that a background check going at a crawl is 100% normal here. It happened for me and I haven’t even lived abroad! Almost the exact same situation – verbal job offer, nothing official until background cleared, but they warned me up front it could take a week or more. I waited until I had the offer letter in hand to quit, but I understand why you weren’t able to do the same.

      I wouldn’t fret over it. The background check really is just a formality, so unless you know of something in your past that would cause them to renege on the offer, I think you’re probably fine. :)

    2. Collie*

      That doesn’t sound totally unreasonable to me. Maybe a little unusual, but…meh. I don’t know if it’s a public or private school or if that even matters. That they said they can’t legally give an official offer seems a bit off to me, but IANAL.

    3. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      In my experience, I have always received an official job offer in writing with the understanding that it was contingent upon background checking/drug testing. I’ve never had to do background checking/drug testing before an official, written offer was given.

    4. HR Person At A School, Reg Comment*

      This is really normal – especially for a school.

      This would be exceedingly fast for a fingerprint check, the norm for school staff in a lot of states.

      If it’s just a regular name based background check, it does take time to verify this info too.

      2. Abigael*

        Thanks for all the comments, everyone. Yeah, the part the makes me the most worried is that they refused to give me the offer in writing, even with a contingency. Of course I know there’s nothing in my past to be worried about the background check, but the fact that they wouldn’t give me something in writing made me a bit paranoid that something else was going on…like, maybe they are trying to keep me on the hook while still interviewing other candidates, or something like that.

        1. HR Person at a School*

          I see why you’re concerned, but it’s how we do things at my K to 12 school. If you are concerned because you already have notice, communicate that to your recruiter if you are comfortable doing that. You are also welcome to ask them if there’s anything you can do to help move the process along. You may be able to give your references for work, or address verification (if the school does this kind of check) a heads up that they would receive communication about these things and to respond quickly. Good luck!

    5. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      I work in higher ed in PA and we require a background check for every position even part-time workers. PA actually requires other clearances as well depending on if you are likely to interact with individuals below the age of 18.

  60. Berry*

    Part of my new duties is doing first looks at my manager’s temporary cover applications, and it’s my first time on the other side of hiring – I’m finding it incredibly interesting to see how other people do their resumes and cover letters, and seeing what people are sorely missing out on great advice.

    Some highlights:
    – A six page cover letter (poorly formatted, really more like 2.5 pages but still way too long and too much life story)
    – A cover letter that was more like a short summary of the person and then four pages of reviews about that person from other people
    – A dark raspberry resume background

    My only duty is automatically rejecting people that don’t include a cover letter but it’s still super interesting to see!

  61. beetrootqueen*

    ok guys i need some advice
    my awful exboss is being brought in to his new job. because of what it is there is a church ceremony with a title that i will not say because it will give it all away. anyway i work with kids who he used to work with but screwed over (as per usuual) and now i have to make him a good bye card and sit through people telling him how great he is when i know he is terrible at his job, commited minor fraud and flouted safeguarding laws. I cannot not go to the ceremony for reasons i cannot get into and I can’t speak up about what he’s done.
    anyone got tips to remaining civil at this cermony?

    1. Andy*

      put a thumbtack in your shoe and press your toe on it when you get the urge to laugh out loud or scream. It will help keep you focused. also works in polygraph test situations for your baseline questions. You are welcome.

      1. Michele*

        That is probably the best course of action. I had a similar situation recently where a couple of people in our department took buyouts and retired so we had a party for them. One of the people had been my boss for a couple of year and we.did.not.get.along. It was pretty common with him that anyone who reported to him hated him, but he managed to convince the people he reported to or that he didn’t work closely with that he was a great guy and good at his job. I went to the party because someone that I did like was also retiring, and it would have looked anti-social to not go. People were fawning all over this guy and talking about how much they would miss him. I just stayed away and talked about anything else.

    3. Root*

      Pretend you’re an undercover operative sent to infiltrate the ceremony and gather intel on everybody. You’d have to be polite to maintain your cover.

  62. In a moral quandary*

    I’m not using my regular user name today, nor my work computer to type this letter. I work for a healthcare company (pointless to try to veil my industry), and last week, our CEO endorsed the new healthcare legislation (AHCA) designed to repeal and replace the affordable care act. There is wide speculation that this endorsement is tied to a recent merger attempt between our company and a competitor, which was blocked by the justice department.

    This is not about politics: left, right or center. Regardless of one’s political stance or views on The Affordable Care Act, there is broad consensus within our industry that this new law – as currently written – is a terrible idea. We are the ONLY national health insurance company to endorse this legislation.

    As someone who has spent their life working from the inside to try to expand access to care, affordability and transparency, this news is devastating. I’m finding it hard to do my job with the conviction and dedication it requires, knowing that I work for an organization that sold out its members and sacrificed our proclaimed company values.

    Meanwhile, a letter reached my inbox the other day from a colleague, who drafted a very eloquent and respectful letter to the CEO, expressing dismay over his endorsement, and why it runs aground of our company values and ethos. It included a Google form with an opportunity to sign on non-anonymously. As a regular reader of this blog, I clearly remember what happened to those interns who signed that petition about shoes. This is different, but the risk is there. I have a family with young children, and it would be devastating to us if I lost my job, but I signed the letter anyway. It was the least I could do, and I assumed that mine would be one of hundreds (maybe even thousands?) of signatures.

    Turns out I was wrong. Co-worker wrote back to say that he has less than a dozen signatures, and asking us to circulate the letter to other colleagues so that they could get to at least 30. 30?? I’m really worried that a letter signed by only 30 of us puts a target right smack on our backs, and feel uncomfortable sending this letter to colleagues putting them at similar risk. I also asked my co-worker not to send my endorsement unless he got to at least 100 signatures. But now I feel like a coward.

    I’m writing to ask the community what you all think: what are the risks of signing on to a letter like that? Am I right to feel protective of my colleagues? Should I just look for another job rather than taking action that could get me fired from the one I have? I love my job, and my career has soared here. I just don’t know if I can live with myself earning my salary from this company anymore.

    1. Emi.*

      Ugh, I’m sorry. I don’t know how much risk you’re taking, but it’s good of you to feel concerned about your colleagues too.

      But you specifically said, “I work for an organization that sold out its members and sacrificed our proclaimed company values,” and “I just don’t know if I can live with myself earning my salary from this company anymore.” If it’s just the CEO who endorsed the bill, how much of a difference does that make to the actual work of the company? (Obviously it makes a difference to employee morale.) But you’re still in the business of selling health insurance, right? It seems to me that working there is neither formal nor material cooperation with passing the AHCA.

      If it passes, it’s possible that your CEO will take that opportunity to redirect the company in a way you can’t accept, so it might be a good idea to start job-searching just in case. But as it stands (and as much as it sucks), I don’t think you’re doing wrong by staying in your job.

    2. Anon a Bonbon*

      I work in healthcare and my organization went against a proposal that would save lives. Their motivation was getting $$ to some local surgeons. I was shocked, and I asked my boss why we were going against something that was so obviously good for, ya know, mankind. He set up a meeting with me and one of our executives so I could get a-talking-to about it.
      I would not recommend rocking the boat. I’ve been job searching because I know I am scared for speaking up. No one has said anything to me about it, but I know my future here is dim.

      1. In a moral quandary*

        Ouch and ouch. What is wrong with the world that we can’t speak up for the good of the people we’re trying to serve without getting our wrists slapped?

        Do they not see the irony of this when we’re actively campaigning to get nurses to speak out in the OR if the surgeon forgets something on the safety checklist?

        “Speak out, please! Unless you’re saying something I don’t like, in which case STFU!”

    3. automaticdoor*

      This is a super hard question. I have struggled with similar quandaries–not at my current healthcare job, but thinking about transferring to, say, something in pharma, which I am qualified to do and have connections in–and knowing that they take stances that I very personally disagree with. I think you’re right to feel protective of your colleagues, and I’d probably ask to be removed from the letter, even though I agree with you personally and professionally.

    4. J.B.*

      You can do only what you can do. I don’t know that I’d bother to sign it, as it isn’t likely to change the CEO’s mind. If there is someone in management you trust, it might be worth talking to him/her about your misgivings. If it is a real ethical dealbreaker for you, you might be better off moving on. To me, some of it depends on whether doing your job furthers the negative policies. There are certainly things at my current job I would have to push back on that could get me fired. But I have really thought about where that line is and accept being fired in that instance…and have a plan for eventually moving on.

      As a practical perspective, if you want to do something and have specific policy expertise, perhaps you could volunteer with some organization?

    5. Sibley*

      I’m with a competitor. Honestly, that law isn’t going to pass. I think it would be political suicide for the entire Republican party. Regarding your employer – in your place, I’d start job searching. Reasons? Philosophical differences with company direction. Time for a new challenge/change.

      Job risk? I don’t know. Depends on how many sign, the level that they’re at, overall culture, what other crap the CEO gets, etc. Start job searching anyway.

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If there’s any way to frame it as being about “working conditions,” then signing it would be a legally protected act (because employers can’t take action against you for banding together with coworkers about your wages or working conditions). Maybe a tweak to the language could achieve that? (For example, something like “we consider this a disappointing alteration to our working conditions because we work here in order to promote access to health care.”)

      If you can’t do that, I think you could tell the organizer that you’d be glad to sign once it reaches X signatures but feel like it’s too much of a risk otherwise.

      1. In a moral quandary*

        Thanks Alison. I could make the argument to myself that this is about working conditions, since part of my job is to serve as a public ambassador of some of our new programs. Going out on the circuit and talking about how my company values access, affordability, collaboration etc. now feels at best disingenuous. But for the broader swath of employees – none of us will be directly affected by the legislation (we all have employer-sponsored insurance) and our working conditions won’t change, just our morale.

        I’m glad I’m not crazy for thinking this is risky. Everyone in my inner circle (not colleagues, just friends and family) with whom I’ve raised this question has told me that I’m being ridiculous, and that no employer in their right mind would ever retaliate against employees for a letter like this. But I’m not so sure.

        Perhaps it is time to blow the dust of the old resume after all, painful as it is to leave a job that’s otherwise been so good to me.

        1. Ann O.*

          It’s risky, and employers would retaliate. I don’t know how in our current administration anyone could be blind about that.

          I don’t know what the options are at your company for communication, but this is exactly why employers need some kind of forum to get together for collective action. If enough of you sign the letter, it is unlikely that any individual will face retaliation. It is probable that many more people would be willing to sign the letter once they are secure it will have a tipping point of signatures (although I don’t know your company’s people, so maybe not). But if a small amount of people–like less than 30–sign, it is quite possible people will face retaliation, so it is very logical for people to refuse to sign until they can feel confident in the safety of numbers.

          I don’t know what your options are for gathering together some kind of collective forum, but to me, that would be the way to go. If that’s impossible, getting that core 15 of you to talk to your coworkers one-on-one and see who else feels the way you do and may be willing to sign could help things snowball.

          But really, we all need unions or at least affiliations. The power dynamics are very challenging without the ability for communication, much less collective action.

    7. Channel Z*

      I’m not in US, so I may not be clear, but if the bill becomes law, doesn’t your company have to abide by it, regardless? Or if you move to a competitor, you are still faced with same law. I don’t think you have much to gain by signing this, and I agree it could make you a target. As far as your own moral dilemma, I once thought as you do, I left the pharma industry in part because I didn’t agree with their aggressive business practices. But now, I realize there is no such thing as perfectly altruistic industry or company, because somewhere along the line both the company and I have to make money. There are always going to be things I fundamentally oppose on moral grounds, but it is something I have to live with and accept I must make compromises.

    8. MsMaryMary*

      I’d start job hunting. Move to one of the carriers who hasn’t made an endorsement, move to the provider side, try a TPA, broker, or consultant. You have options. Maybe if thousands of employees had signed the letter, your leadership would make a change. I doubt it. This doesn’t sound like an organization you’d be happy with in the future regardless of whether or not signing the letter has a direct negative impact on you.

    9. rubyrose*

      I would not have signed, but that is just me. When a company takes the stand that they have you have no guarantee that they will be fair with you.

      I think a potential problem in finding another job in healthcare is that companies are taking a hard look at what they will need to do if/when some law passes and that hard look includes laying people off. One local hospital has offered early retirement to 600 people and only 200 are taking them up on it. Mine (large healthcare MCO) has just announced that in preparation for the new legislation they are cutting back on just administrative costs for now, and our target audience is Medicaid/Medicare.

      Start looking now, before the actual layoffs start. I would have the same moral concerns you do if working for that unnamed company that I know because I follow healthcare news. There are other companies that are coming out against the tide that I’m sure you could work for comfortably.

      And I’m so sorry you are in the situation you are in.

  63. EddieSherbert*

    The woman in the cube next to me has come in sick every day for two weeks straight… sneezing, sniffling, nose blowing has turned into a hacking cough and telling me how “now her ears are ringing and itchy.”

    Fingers crossed I don’t get sick.

    Worst part? Our company is SUPER flexible about working from home, and over half her department works from home over half the time.

    (I can’t right now because of my crazy meeting schedule this time of year, but I would if I could – just to avoid her!).

    1. EddieSherbert*

      PS She takes any comments on it as a joke, even if you’re like “no, really” or “I’m serious”…. She’s the “tough through it” and you got to “toughen up” type.

      *sigh*

    2. _*

      Raw garlic! I swear by it to combat any viruses! Crush a clove, leave it out for 10mins, then pop it like a pill!

      1. EddieSherbert*

        +1

        I have actually heard this before, but never tried it… thanks for the reminder!

        And, at the least, the smell should scare her away ;)

      2. Not So NewReader*

        From what I have read some folks believe garlic is anti- bacterial/viral/tumor. Yep, anti-tumor.

        I played on the part where it comes out the skin by giving it to my dog who had mites in his hair follicles. I did that with other things and he got better fast.

        Garlic is pretty amazing.

  64. Myers Briggs Boss Cerified Boss - Manage It?*

    My boss became certified in Myers Briggs. She says that she didn’t realize the amazing depths of the tool, and will now start using it as a management tool. Arrgh. I am ISTP working in HR Compliance. What advice do you have for me to manage up and show strong performance to my boss?

    FWIW – I had to take the assessmemt months ago for a training program. I don’t believe that it’s as accurate as people think. My S/n, j/p, and occasionally the I/e evolve based on whatever dominates my life. I will also push back on using it whenever I can without jeopardizing my career here.

    – Reg Commenter, Anon for this

    1. Rising Leo ENFJ Gryffindor*

      That’s really, really, really, really, really, really annoying. I hold as much merit to the Myers Briggs tests as I do with reading your full astrological birth chart. I think it’s fun but shouldn’t dictate the person you are. How possible is it to just ignore it? Also, for funsies, I would read about her Myers Briggs to see how she ticks.

    2. ANewbie*

      It’s phenomenally easy to get whatever answer you want from the MB tests, so one option is just to play her game. Get her talking about what MB types she thinks are best suited for HR work. Mention that you think based on what she’s explained that it might be worth you taking a good version of the test (come up with a MB explanation and examples for why you think the one you took for training wasn’t accurate or very good). Retake the test and rig it to come out with manager’s desired categories.

    3. Michele*

      I hate MB. I used to have a horribleboss at old toxicjob, and he was obsessed with MB. He was convinced that only certain types could hold certain positions. But the tests were really easy to manipulate to give the results that he wanted, so we all just gave the answers to get those results.

    5. jamlady*

      Ugh, sorry OP. Such a bad idea to manage that way. And I’m one of those personalities that MB is actually pretty dead on for (INTJ-A, female – always have been and always will be). It’s mostly fun to compare myself to star wars characters (Palpatine lol) – it shouldn’t be used to seriously evaluate people in the workplace. I would honestly politely nod buy ignore any MB stuff at work with your boss and just keep being awesome at your job.

    6. Dizzy Steinway*

      I have a friend who recently became a certified MBTI wotsit. I asked her to guess my type (as I always test as the same one). She guessed IST-something as I’m always looking for information on my phone. When I told her I always get INFJ she looked like she might cry for a second.

      INFJ is accurate for me when I read it, but I’d say it’s about a quarter stuff that wouldn’t apply to everyone and the rest is Barnum statements.

      I kind of love this stuff, but not for management – and I only love it because it gives me jumping off points to self-reflect.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I guess I would work over it, under it and around it.

      This would look like any mention of MB would get skimmed over by me. “Oh, that’s nice” in a flat tone of voice as if distracted.

      In other settings I would say something, “Well, okay so Bob is xxxx, which I understand. But he is also 40 minutes late for work everyday and this has become a problem. So regardless of his MB status, he still needs to show up on time.” (Here I pushed MB to the back burner because it does not solve Bob’s chronic tardiness.)

      I take one person at a time and look at what they are doing and saying. For me to run it through MB is one more step that just makes my process longer. Nothing replaces actually listening to what a person is saying. So I guess if the boss questioned me directly, “why aren’t you using My MB?” I would just say, I prefer to consider each individual and each situation on its own.
      Ride it out, she’ll give up with the idea in a while.

      1. tigerStripes*

        Books on MBTI (I’m an INTJ female and am fascinated by this) say clearly that you can’t use your type as an excuse, so saying “I’m a P type, so naturally I’m always late.” isn’t really OK.

        There’s a book called something like Type Talk at Work, which can be really helpful for this. If you read it and act enthused about it and say something like “That’s interesting. I’ve been reading this book about it, and it says…” when your manager says something that contradicts common sense, that might give you an edge.

  65. LizB*

    Any advice on systems I can build to work more effectively with someone I’m totally fed up with?

    Context: I manage a small department that works closely with a partner organization. Our most direct liaison from the partner organization is a perfectly decent human being, but is terrible at her job in ways that absolutely drive me up the wall. There is broad agreement (from my boss, my grandboss, several other people in our organization, and this person’s boss and coworkers) that she’s really bad at her job, and I happen to know she’s being managed out of the role (slooooowly), but until that happens, I still need to work with her very closely to keep things running smoothly. Because I’m so fed up with her communication style and the absurd requests she makes, I find myself putting her emails away to deal with later when I’ve calmed down from my knee-jerk “UGH WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIS” reaction, but sometimes forgetting to come back to them, which just leads to more emails that make me go UGH. Any ideas on how I can keep these messages and make myself respond to them in a timely manner even though I find them endlessly frustrating?

    1. CoffeeLover*

      Well, the way I like to deal with really annoying emails is to write what I want to say and then go through and remove all the rudeness before sending it. I find it therapeutic… let’s me get some frustration out. Also encourages me to respond quickly.

      For example: “Well, if you told me you needed this so urgently early, I could have prioritized better. I should be was focusing on X today, but will try to get this to you asap.”

      Word of caution: Don’t press send accidentally lol. You might even consider removing the name from the “To” until you’re ready to send.

      1. LizB*

        That is a tempting suggestion! I may have to do it with some of the more egregious ones. (In a word document, maybe, instead of an email reply, just to be safe…) “Sorry for the late reply, it took me a good twenty minutes to hack my way through this jungle of meandering text and passive-aggressive screenshots and actually find your point. Yes, this order is a unique case that the spout protocol doesn’t entirely apply to. I’ll talk to my lead teapot engineer about it. Do you need us to redo the schematics? Please, for the love of all that is holy, reply only YES or NO. That’s all I need. One word. Not a novel.”

        1. tigerStripes*

          Absolutely remove the “to” field or write it in notepad instead of the e-mail address.

          Occasionally if you tell someone what would help you for input, that might actually help.

      2. Dizzy Steinway*

        You absolutely must empty the to field before you do this.

        You WILL accidentally hit send one day if you don’t.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      This is going to sound odd.
      Wish her well. In the privacy of you own thoughts, during a quiet time of day think of her and wish her well. Keep doing this even though it does not make sense, it’s a PITA, and it’s hard to remember to do it.

      Over time what happens is we grow more patient for a person because of our habit of wishing them well.

      If you need a little help in mustering empathy consider this: She is stuck in a job that she knows she is bad at. She knows that everyone talks about her behind her back and she can’t stop that from happening. Her situation is so dire that everyone around her knows she is being eased out. If her paycheck stops her responsibilities at home do NOT stop.

      This could be any one of us. Ugh! It could be me! (It’s not and I know that. But it could happen to me or you or any one of us. We just end up in a job that is so NOT us. )

      So start by saying to yourself that she gets one free pass a day. Once a day she can do something totally boneheaded and you will ignore it. This could be an email or an in person conversation.

      Engage in a little less complaining about her with your cohorts.

      I know with me, if someone gets under my skin and festers that might be happening because I need to do better with my own self-care. Maybe I am low on sleep or have not been drinking water the way I should. So you can look at the question of “why” does she bother you so, too. (Sometimes all we can do is change what we are doing.)

  66. RedSonja*

    Does anyone have any advice for effectively scoping out a new city while traveling there for an interview?

    I have a second, in-person interview in San Francisco next week. Currently, my husband and I live in the Midwestern suburbs, and this will be a first visit to SF for both of us. We’ll have 2 full non-interview days to explore. My question is, how much can we really expect touristy stuff to reflect life in the area? Is there anything we should particularly focus on, or ignore?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      My understanding is that it is incredibly expensive to live in San Francisco and most people live outside the city, so I would suggest asking about what neighborhoods are popular with the workers at the company and maybe looking into some of those.

    2. Danae*

      Definitely ask where people in the company tend to live–you’re very, very unlikely to end up in SF proper. (I grew up in the Bay Area, and I always wanted to live in SF for a year or two, but it was always the expectation that living in the city is an expensive venture and reasonable people don’t plan on doing it for long.) Go visit the places where people tend to live, hit Craigslist to price and locate potential places to live in those areas, and see if you can figure out what the commute would be like. Also -definitely- ride public transit! Between BART and the buses and the streetcars (and Caltrain going to the south), SF has a ton of non-car options for getting places, and you’ll want to get familiar with them because driving and parking in the city is a pretty miserable experience.

      Honestly, I wouldn’t bother with the touristy stuff. You’ll have time for that later if you take the job. The various cities that surround SF (where the majority of people who work in SF live) all have their pros and cons, so you’ll want to visit a few and get a feel for them.

      1. Not My Monkeys, Not My Circus*

        I agree with Danae. The hubs and I visited in October last year and had a great time and we want to go back to do more. But if I were looking to move there, I would be exploring the living arrangements and burbs versus the tourist attractions. I’ve moved across country before and you want to make sure you can a) afford your lifestyle and b) enjoy where you live.

        SF has great stuff to do and is lots of fun, but you can visit to do that for a lot less money than living there.

        Good luck!

    3. Anxa*

      I would pay attention to traffic patterns and parking if possible. Alternatively see if you get can get a good look at the bus stops.

    4. MsMaryMary*

      Ask the people you’re interviewing with. Ask for meal recommendations, their favorite non-touristy stuff to do, their secrets for the touristy stuff, etc. If you feel like things are going well, ask what area they’d recommend for young families (or DINKs, empty nesters, whatever your situation is).

    5. zora*

      this might sound really intense, but I’m an over-planner. ;o) Honestly, if I was you, I would start by researching before getting here some apartments/condos. At least look at craigslist, but maybe look at Zillow for sale prices, and more curated rental sites, even looking at realtors websites, and find some apartments that you think you can actually afford and would be happy living in. Really look at what you think your salary will be at the new job, and what will work in your budget. Seriously, cost of living here is High.

      Then write down a few different addresses, google map them and use google to explore the neighborhoods a little (search for restaurants, grocery stores, etc.) Then spend part of your exploring days to actually walk to those addresses and wander around those neighborhoods. Use public transportation to travel in and out of those neighborhoods to see what it’s like to commute from there. And be honest with yourselves about how you would feel living in those places?

      I love this city, and we have so many neighborhoods that are awesome for wandering around, but the price points vary a LOT depending on where you are. If you are expecting a salary less than $150k, then check out the east bay, because that is a much more reasonable area.

      Also, second what people said above about asking some of the people at the place you are interviewing, people love talking about this stuff here, you will get lots of good tips and ideas from them.

    6. Ex-SFer*

      I second the advice to go check out the surrounding communities. And try to get a sense of what the commute would be like from various places. Side note: Do some research to help negotiate salary and benefits with your prospective employer. For example, if you can show them that current rent is xyz for what you need and that your commute will cost xyz per day, you might get a better offer. Cost of living has risen steeply in the past few years and the burden’s fallen more heavily on people new to the area.

      There are tons of good restaurants, bars, parks, and fun novelty type things to do. Pretty much everywhere.
      There are also tons of interesting events in tech, the arts, anything you can think of. I would find a seminar or show or film screening or whatever you’re into and go to it.

    7. LCL*

      Check out the reddit pages for SF. I waste time on reddit at home, and it has good information for our city. Don’t visit reddit on a work machine.

    8. Jessesgirl72*

      I lived in the Bay Area for 12 years.

      The touristy stuff, in my experience, doesn’t reflect real living at all.

      I agree with asking where people live- and specifically, how many of them have roommates. And how long the commute is and whether you can flex your time to avoid the worst of it.

      And make sure they are offering you enough to live there! We live in Milwaukee, and to maintain our cost of living, we’d need DOUBLE our current salary, at minimum. It’s not just a little more expensive there- it’s twice as expensive as the Midwest.

  67. Venus Supreme*

    Vent session: I work in development and our gala is quickly approaching. Yesterday morning my manager texted me to let me know that she’s having a gala meeting before work hours with BigBoss, a couple other coworkers, and the rest of the development team, minus me. There’s another person who’s at the same level as me in our department and she was included because “she worked it last year and it relates to her job duties for this year’s gala” Manager ended up briefing me on what happened during that meeting afterwards — including what my job duties might possibly be — and I almost wanted to say “You could’ve saved your breath and just included me in this meeting.”

    I’ve been having a lot of other issues with my boss being friendlier with the rest of the department (four of us total) other than me, and then I’m left with less information for important events because she shares crucial info on her coffee breaks with her girlfriends, to which I’m not invited to. I’ve already confronted her on this behavior and I’m tempted to say out loud, “Your actions aren’t affecting my work but they’re definitely influencing how long I want to stay here…”

    1. Bluebell*

      Venus, did you ask why she didn’t include you? Is there a way you can point out the upside of having you in the room? Hope it works out. Having a successful gala under your belt will be useful if you are looking for other development jobs in the future.

  68. Ann O'Nemity*

    What, if anything, are your employer’s doing to celebrate St. Patrick’s Day?

    We’re having beer and snacks later today. This is the first employer I’ve had in 10 years that did anything for it. I’m wondering how common these celebrations are.

    1. Not Karen*

      Snacks during lunch, and one of our employees who plays the bagpipes is briefly performing.

    2. Venus Supreme*

      LOL people are wearing green and that’s about it.

      What’s funny is that in high school my friend recorded himself singing all these traditional Irish songs and my full-blooded Irish mother loved them so much that she whips out the CD every St. Paddy’s Day. I don’t talk to my friend anymore but I get to hear his voice over some corned beef and cabbage…

    3. rageismycaffeine*

      Ha, my employer (a university system office) is having an NCAA tournament pizza party. I don’t think anyone in this building even remembers that it’s St. Paddy’s. Everyone is in their preferred school’s colors instead of green.

      I’m probably more likely to get pinched over not caring at all about the tourney than I am for not wearing green. :D

    4. John Ames Boughton*

      There’s irish cream in the break room available for putting in coffee – the real stuff, since this is a fairly moderate drinking-positive workplace. I’m guessing all the food at the weekly meeting this afternoon will be green.

    5. Kelly L.*

      Nothing. A couple of us are wearing green. I bet if I went to the student dining area, though, there are probably green cookies or something.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      We’re having lunch brought in, but they’re 30 minutes late and we are all getting hangry.

    8. Gracie*

      We were able to wear jeans all week if we wore green (business casual is usual) with a big potluck today. Food smells sooooo good

    9. Rat in the Sugar*

      I don’t know if it was management, but somebody here brought in some cookies and treats and left them in the breakroom with a sign saying “Happy St. Patrick’s Day!”. We are very much a drinking kind of company, so I assume some of my coworkers are going to be going out after work as well. I can’t drink much right now so I haven’t bothered to ask around.

    10. FDCA In Canada*

      I have on a green shirt, but one of my coworkers is wearing a bright green “Kiss Me I’m Irish” shirt with a green-glitter hat with green spangled boppers on springs.

      No, our boss is not here today, why do you ask? Professional dress, what’s that?

    12. Blue Anne*

      Everyone is wearing green, and the bosses ordered a catered corned beef and cabbage lunch for everyone.

      It’s really nice of them but unfortunately I hate the smell of cabbage.

    13. Lemon Zinger*

      Nothing official. A few people are wearing green (myself included). Several people in my immediate team are going out for drinks after work.

    15. Clever Name*

      Nothing at my office. Although I did have a moment of panic this morning right as I was getting ready to go out in the field when I thought the location I needed to visit might be participating in festivities today. I called the town and luckily their event was on Saturday. One of my coworkers didn’t realize what today was. I am having corned beef and cabbage for dinner tonight, though. :)

  69. AMT*

    I was recently offered a new job and verbally accepted after the HR person quoted me a salary over the phone. I requested a formal offer letter (she initially said a letter was normally provided during onboarding, which I found weird). The letter had a lower salary than we’d agreed on. I called her about the difference and she said that she had miscalculated and that the number in the offer letter was the true salary and she could not offer more, as it’s a union position. When I got off the phone, I sent an email to the hiring manager explaining the situation and asking if there was anything he could do. He said he’d look into it.

    Two questions:

    1. Did I overreach by contacting the hiring manager? We had a great rapport during the interview and he was impressed with my resume, but since he’s not directly involved in setting salaries, I worry that I asked him for a favor unnecessarily. I’m not hopeful about his ability to do anything about it.

    2. Should I have mentioned that I might not be able to take the job with the lower salary? Realistically, I probably will take the job even with the lower salary, but it’s not much more than I’m making now, and it may even be slightly less with other benefits factored in. Now I’m paranoid that they’ll withdraw the offer.

    I’m trying to be optimistic about this new job, as it’s something I’ve been wanting to do for a long time and I’d love to escape my current workplace. The worst-case scenario is that I have a new job in a neighborhood I love. But it’s hard not to feel a little angry about the salary issue.

    1. Here we go again*

      I don’t think you overreached at all. Actually, the HR person sucks for not looking into this herself. Did you already put in your notice at your other job? That would be the tough part.

    2. CoffeeLover*

      I don’t think you overreached. The hiring manager is the person who’s actually making the hiring decision. He should be the best positioned to know how much you’re worth and he’s the one that can go to bat for you with HR if he thinks you’re worth it. It sounds like he’s willing to at least look into it for you, so I say just wait until you hear back from him. As Alison has said a few times here, attempting to negotiate will not lead to a pulled offer at any reasonable employer (unless you’re a big jerk about it). You’re not even negotiating… you’re asking for the salary they originally quoted to you. You’re also not really asking him for a “favour”. This is a normal part of the hiring process.

      As for your second point, I don’t think you should have said you might not take the job at the lower salary if that’s not true (which it isn’t). That’s a situation where they really could come back to say, “well, we can’t offer anymore so this isn’t going to work”. It would be hard for you to back-track at that point.

      1. AMT*

        That’s what I’m worried about! At the time I sent the email, I was wavering slightly on whether I wanted to take the job, but now I’m sure I still want it. I wrote that I wasn’t sure that I’d be able to take it (as opposed to saying I definitely wouldn’t accept it), but it might have been best to leave that part out.

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          No, that is good information! You have more leverage now than you will ever have as an employee.

          1. CoffeeLover*

            My issue with it is that you should be able to figure out whether you would take the job at that salary or not. There isn’t really a “might not take it”… it’s either you would or you wouldn’t. Especially since this was an email AMT sent later so s/he would have had time to reflect. If they come back and say they can’t offer anymore, then if you accept you look like you were being less than honest to try and get a higher number. Heck they may even call your bluff and pull the offer because they believe you and think you wouldn’t be happy (would leave quickly). I guess I just don’t see a need to say that when a simple, “I was hoping for something closer to XX, is that possible?” would do.

            AMT what I’m saying above shouldn’t make you worried. I think what you said isn’t bad especially since you watered it down quite a bit. Again, just wait and see what he says. Oh and congratulations on the offer!

            1. AMT*

              Thanks! I think you’re right — it was probably best to say something like “I was looking for X salary” or even something less specific like “Is there anything you can do about the salary?” I guess there’s no use worrying about it now, though. I’ll just wait and try not to think about it too much!

  70. Spoonie*

    I have a fantastic boss, and I recognize she’s probably feeling overwhelmed right now since she was unexpectedly out last week. However, I’ve sent her new teapot designs and haven’t heard a peep, and my brain is in full overdrive. I did hear back on teapot project (unrelated), and of the multiple iterations on the handle, she likes the handle I like least. It’s overly ornate/fussy, and I’m more of a minimalist, so that could be my problem.

    The designs I’m waiting for feedback on are more of a materials issue — we’re shifting from ceramic to enamel, so I used an existing mold and a mold from a different project (for simplicity since it’s already designed for the enamel), so some of the shapes are a little off. We haven’t quite worked together long enough for me to fully know if she can see imagine the vision with materials and incorrect molds or if she needs a full casting with correct materials and correct molds. Because it’s been many days since I’ve sent it over and she hasn’t commented on either my material selection or the materials post-mold, I’m sort of…twiddling my thumbs and trying not to breathe into a bag.

    tl;dr: My boss hasn’t given me feedback on a semi-big project, and I’m feeling antsy since the longer it drags out, the more my brain wants to panic.

  71. fposte*

    Did anybody else see the current XKCD about on-boarding? It’s funny. I’ll include the link in followup.

    2. NW Mossy*

      As the kids say these days, I iz ded. Randall Munroe is right up there with Lin-Manual Miranda on my personal Amazingly Smart Creative Geniuses list.

      2. gwal*

        I’m sure I’m not alone in that I would tolerate 100x worse IT operations at my job if someone half as charming and talented-at-singing were the one coordinating such operations (is that what “working on infrastructure” means?)

  72. Anon Accountant*

    I’ll share some coworker highlights from tax season to date. There was a corporation and partnership deadline Wednesday, March 15. Our admin assistant is supposed to assemble returns and scan work papers.

    Monday she left at 5 because “The Bachelor” tv show was on. Tuesday night she opened a bottle of wine (boss didn’t want it and it was a gift from a client) and assembled 0 returns but hung out at the office and drank wine with another co worker.

    She is literally holding up getting returns to clients and filed. Best part is she’s friends with my boss’s wife so there’s nothing done about her.

    Can’t wait for tax season to end!

    1. SophieChotek*

      !…I guess if the boss won’t do anything…there’s not much you can do ? (Unless you just skip her and do the assembly and scanning yourself?)

      1. Anon Accountant*

        Exactly. Which sucks when you are already doing 60+ hours. Other coworkers are really fed up with this behavior too.

        Our boss sure is a lot of fun.

    2. Anon Accountant*

      We need Alison to be “Super Manager” like there is “Super Nanny”. Alison can have her own reality show Super Manager. That’d be awesome.

      4. NW Mossy*

        There’s a show on CNBC called “The Profit” that has some Super-Manager elements to it. The host looks for struggling businesses to invest in and spend a fair portion of his time fixing their management fails. The episode “The Soup Market” is jaw-droppingly amazing in terms of the dysfunction to resolve and I highly recommend it.

      5. Cassandra*

        Wow. Anybody have contacts at a major TV network? Because this would be ratings through the roof.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      But the Bachelor sucks live because it’s 60% ads and recap. My SO and I can binge watch a 2 hour episode in under 40 minutes with DVR. Nothing is adding up!

  73. Addison*

    Happy Friday everyone!

    I’m sure Allison has covered this a bunch of times and I just missed it, but do y’all have links to and/or personal anecdotes/tips/advice/etc about job hunting out of state? There’s a possibility that my mom may be taking a job transfer to Philadelphia and if she goes, I’m going with her. Partly because of financial reasons, but most especially because I spent most of my childhood on the east coast (MD and rural PA mostly) and would absolutely love to go back – Philly is one of my dream places to live!! I just haven’t bothered to leave stinky old SoCal because I don’t want to be without social support (did it before, it was awful). So I guess if you have any tips about Philadelphia specifically I’ll take that too. ;)

    Worse comes to worst, I can survive on what money I have now until I get there and can start job hunting, especially since my mom will have a job already lined up, but if I can avoid that at all, that’d be great. I definitely don’t really have the money to fly back and forth for interviews–unless the employer wants to spot me the airfare, I guess, but I also kinda can’t really get the time off from the job I have to take cross-country flights right now, either. I’m pretty Skype-savvy though, is it common for interviews to happen over Skype in long-distance cases? I’ve never done one before. Any help at all would be appreciated!

    1. Not Karen*

      Due to luck and/or my industry (STEM), I’ve been able to either convince interviewers to do the interview over the phone or stumble upon companies that pay me to fly over in-person. Fortunately I haven’t had to do a Skype interview because that sounds terrifying.

  74. sniff*

    Had to use the ‘I have a cold and probably shouldn’t shake hands’ line today.

    Ugh, I thought about trying to hide it but figure they’d probably appreciate not unknowingly getting infected. Being sick really sucks (even more so because the weather here has been glorious lately and I can’t even enjoy it).

  75. Anonymous writer*

    I’ve been working on 3 semi-related manuscripts for about 2 years. (When things go according to plan, a manuscript should take ~6 months from initiation to submission.) Today I finally submitted the first, and the other two should follow in the next few weeks. It is such a relief to get these off my plate!

    Of course, now we have to wait anxiously and see if they are accepted…

  76. Kalliopesmom*

    I recently started a new job and things are going great. Love the people I work with and what I do. Took me a few weeks to get settled and figure out the lay of the land. Then the problem started. One problem. My boss worked to hire a political organizer who may or may not be his significant other. He has asked me to help her with various projects as she was working out of her car during this transition time. No problem a few spreadsheet and flyers. Then she started bossing me around like I was her personal assistant. I had a talk with my boss and expressed my concerns. My job here comes first, he said that he would talk to her. Cool, left it in his hands. The following week, I am helping with some printing and chatting with her about my day. She decided to text me at 1030pm about work she wanted me to complete by 9am. Ummm, no. One, I don’t work for you. Two anything off the clock needs to be paid. Three, you do not set deadlines for me when I don’t work for you and only try to help you. I immediately went back to my boss and said that if this happened again, I would need to be compensated. I am only available to help out during business hours since I am paid hourly. I have avoided her for the last two weeks. Things did get busy in my office so I didn’t need to make an excuse to get out of helping her. But today, the office is slow and my projects are complete. So my boss called and asked me to help again. I am so dreading this. I hate working with her. She has this thing where she shushes me. Umm, no. This is my office, I am not being loud and if you need quiet space, go to your own office (which she has now). If she shushes me again or sets deadlines for me. I am going to put my foot down and give her the rules. I don’t work for her. Rant over, thanks for reading!

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Oh, yikes.

      Sounds like, when she texted you at 10:30, you went ahead and did what she wanted you to do? If so, don’t make that mistake again. “Sorry, I’m off the clock, but I might be available for limited overtime in the future if you clear it with Boss.”

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I wouldn’t even get that far. You text or email me at 10:30pm, I’m likely asleep.

      2. Kalliopesmom*

        I did, and I spoke with my boss as soon as he arrived late the next day (doc appointment) She hasn’t texted me after hours since then.

    2. Kalliopesmom*

      UPDATE – she arrived at my office and it did not go well. I was sitting here for two hours with nothing to work on. UPS delivered a package that needed my attention. So I am checking out what needs to be done. She comes in and wants my undivided attention. I was faxing something and seeing how long this project would take. She said Mr boss said that you were to work with me today. I replied after all office business is complete. I am not finished yet. She left in a huff after making a mess in the bathroom that I had to clean. She went to her car and called my boss who called me. I explained my side and that I am not a personal secretary (I hate that word) I don’t work for her but I will be treated with respect. I don’t clean up after other people either. He said that he would talk to her. Fingers crossed the message gets through because next step is to go above my boss and I don’t want to but I will. So much for a happy Friday. I was on the verge of tears venting to a coworker.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        She is not having a good time here. Keep doing what you are doing. There are times and this is one of them where I think that the bigger the explosion the closer I am to hitting the mark.

        I almost don’t want to know what kind of a bathroom mess. I am hoping you mean towels on the floor, but I am betting that’s not it. This is ridiculous. Can you tell the boss that you will never clean the bathroom after her again?

        1. Kalliopesmom*

          I did tell him that during our phone conversation and again when he came back to the office. It was so gross and I can’t believe an adult would leave a mess like that. I reminded me of a dog marking their territory. ewww

      2. OhBehave*

        Tread lightly here! If she is his SO, he may start to get fed up with your justified complaints about her. If he’s getting flack from her and you, I’m just not sure what side he would choose.
        BTW – her behavior is insulting and uncalled for.

        1. Kalliopesmom*

          I agree. I need to be careful. I am confident in my work relationship with my boss as I have proven myself here in the last few months. He knows that I will do what needs to be done, but I will stand firm that I don’t work for her. This is the third time that I have spoken with him about her. My next step is to go to the President and that might mean moving me to another location (which I do not want).

  77. Charlatan*

    I posted this late in last week’s thread so I’m reposting in hopes of getting more input:

    I’m looking for best practices on how to write emails and memos – things similar to this post on writing emails with precision: https://hbr.org/2016/11/how-to-write-email-with-military-precision

    My organization (local government) write a lot of detail-heavy memos and emails and we’re seeking ways to impart all the necessary information while not making the readers’ eyes glaze over.

    LQ shared this: http://www.hennepin.us/employees/henn-co-writing-guide and Ann O shared this: I also recommend reading about Info Mapping (or looking up articles by JoAnn Hackos). If anyone has any other info I’d love to hear it.

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      If people can’t naturally write in plain English, it tends to be the case that they know it when they see it but don’t understand what it is they’re seeing. It may be worth getting a trainer in as the people for whom this doesn’t naturally can – in my experience – find it really difficult to actually translate all the how-to theory into actual writing.

      This might help: http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/how-to-write-in-plain-english.html

      Also, get them to find examples of content they think is in the style you’re aiming for. Doesn’t matter where from – could be a news article or a cereal packet – but get them to really pull it apart and see what it is that makes it clear.

      All that said, a lot of organisations don’t try to teach everyone to do this – it can be better to have a dedicated comms person translate your information into plain English. Or to at least pay a freelancer to create a bunch of templates you can adapt.

  78. Gracie*

    So last week in the weekend open thread i mentioned that my job finally put in the paperwork to hire a temp for me to train because I’m leaving. I have them 8 weeks notice for this reason and they have 4 weeks left. I’ll have 4 weeks to fit in training on everything I do. Then I find out that the temp really isn’t for me. They have another position that needs help that they can’t get approval for so they are labelling them as my temp but putting them in that position.

    If they actually do this, (Supervisor told me this but temp hasn’t actually started yet) I don’t know what to do. No one in the company knows the details of what I do and how I do it. Basically they tossed me in the middle of a project that was starting and let me set it up and work out the details. Everything’s gone smoothly for the most part so no one has bothered to learn despite me trying to get my supervisor to let me train someone. Even her. The one time I tried to train her, she sat with me for 15 min while I showed her how to log into the system and then suddenly decided it was super important to make lunch for our department.

    I’ve gone behind her back to train a few people who have a bit of spare time but it doesn’t cover everything and I’m going crazy. My job involves millions of dollars so it has to be done right. It’s not something you want to toss someone into without any training.

    Another level is that one of my best friends is the person who may cover the position until they get someone permanent but “they aren’t sure yet so don’t train him”

    My plan is to try to train him anyway when they aren’t looking. Make good procedural guides. And if the temp thing goes the way they said, to escalate it. Any other advice people could offer?

    1. fposte*

      I’m not averse to what you’re saying, but my advice is to start letting go. If they crash and burn after you leave, that’s on them. It’s your job to give them a chance, but it’s not your obligation to ensure everything is okay. It sounds like you’re given them a substantial chance.

      I know that’s easier said than done, but think about how much energy it’s worth inputting into this and what kind of result it’s likely to have. Going crazy is not going to make them likelier to figure out a transition plan. I would make good procedural guides, give him a little training when you can without swelling up your schedule too much, and leave the escalation to a simple communication outlining what gaps you see when you go and where the manuals are. Then I’d let go and let [insert deity here].

    2. asteramella*

      That sounds like a really frustrating situation, like you tried to set them up for success and they aren’t taking advantage of your unusually long notice.

      Ultimately you might just have to make great documentation and wish them well when they fail to get a replacement in time for any training. While it may be frustrating to see your role filled by someone with little to no training, that’s on the company and not on you.

    3. Electric Hedgehog*

      Start thinking now about whether you’d be willing to return on a consultancy basis and what you should charge. Double your current rate plus a bit would be my suggestion.

    4. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      “My plan is to try to train him anyway when they aren’t looking. Make good procedural guides. And if the temp thing goes the way they said, to escalate it. Any other advice people could offer?”

      My advice would be to not do any of that, and let your boss and management make decisions as they see fit. It’s not your responsibility to save them. If they lack the planning and foresight to take advantage of a very generous notice period, that’s 100% on them, not you – and it’s certainly nothing you should feel obligated to go crazy about or take heroic measures to resolve.

      1. fposte*

        I think that’s cool too. I would, however, except the “making guides” from this–making a manual for your successor is standard stuff. But in your case, Gracie, I’d add “making a reasonable manual,” not “making a manual that foresees every possible eventuality,” because I think you’re tending to go down into the weeds right now.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Yes, this makes sense to me. Not “four weeks of training in a massive three ring binder” but a reasonable documentation of basic processes, file structure, points of contact, and so on.

      2. Gracie*

        It’s actually part of our job description to make the procedural guides (or update them) for the position you are in. I’ve actually decided to take the whole let it go thing to heart. I’ll work my hours and do my best but I want to enjoy my last few weeks so I don’t look back with bitterness.

        A big snag is that my best friend may be the one tossed into the position. I’ve been his mentor because his supervisor refused to train him. (Company is great, supervisor sucks but he’s the kind of guy who makes himself look good to upper management) I’m working with him though and ill offer moral support when I’m gone and work support if it’s something he absolutely can’t handle. He’s doing great though so I don’t expect it will be often

        1. OhBehave*

          Document what you can in the 4 weeks you have left. I would not worry about who they will find to replace you. It sounds like that’s not a priority in their eyes. Their problem is that they have no idea what or how to do what you do! Oh well. That is totally on them!

          I (and my entire team) was laid off in December after being in the org for 20 years. The knowledge of the org that I have is impossible to put down on paper. I worked hard to leave things with good documentation. I also determined in my exit interview (that never happened), that I would draw the line at excessive calls and emails to ask about xyz. They haven’t called me but a few times. I appreciate your desire to leave well. I was determined to do the same. Nothing would fail because of me.

    5. Chaordic One*

      It sort of depends on a couple of things. If your boss and co-workers have treated you well AND if you have the time, you could prepare some step-by-step manuals that detail what you do. OTOH, if you’re leaving a dysfunctional organization where they treat people badly, or even if they treat you well and you don’t have the time to write a manual (because you’re training someone and trying to tie up loose ends), then don’t.

  79. the_scientist*

    I’ve been at my job for just over two years. I really like it, overall. There’s been a fair bit of turnover, but I am getting great feedback on my work output and quality and work with a great team. I was promoted over the summer and got a fairly large raise to go with it. I have a lot of training and professional development opportunities. My company is a big one, and there are internal postings coming up every single day. A functional lead position in a different portfolio was posted this morning, internally and externally. The subject matter is right in my wheelhouse, and fits the direction I’d like to go with my career, but it would be a bit of a stretch position (looking for 5-7 years experience; PhD is an asset. I have 5 years and no PhD but a fair bit of institutional knowledge). It seems foolish to think about walking away from a job that I enjoy, and I haven’t really been here that long…but a few of my projects are annual refreshers that I’m getting kind of bored of, and I don’t know if I can do another year of them. There’s no chance of them being moved to someone else’s plate, so they’re mine for as long as I am around (unless there’s another restructuring). So I’m not sure whether I should apply for this position or not, since I know the politics of internal job applications can be kind of tricky. If it was a position in a different company, I’d apply without hesitation but the internal thing is tripping me up.

    1. Chaordic One*

      I don’t think there’s any harm in applying for the position. I can’t quite wrap my head around the internal politics, but “Nothing ventured, nothing gained.” If you don’t get it, you still have a great job for the foreseeable future.

  80. Batturtle*

    So, I’m getting increasingly frustrated by a situation at work, and I’m wondering if this is as unusual as I think….

    Basically, I work in digital media, which is pretty fast-moving, for a particularly fast-moving company within that sector. We’re growing and scaling, and now, our HR department is sticking really hard and fast to a rule that they need a full 2 weeks to bring new people on (as in, 2 weeks from when the offer is formally accepted). This is fine in the vaaaast majority of cases, and totally reasonable as a general guideline.

    However, I recently went thru a whole thing where we ended up onboarding someone as a contractor because we were launching a new product on a tight timeframe and we didn’t have 2 weeks to wait. Now, we’re trying to convert this person to an employee (which is how I wanted them onboarded in the first place) and we have to wait AGAIN for 2 weeks. I feel strongly that, in a company like ours, HR just HAS to be willing and able to onboard people more quickly when that is just plain what the business needs. And maybe, if push really came to shove, they could, but this position was sort of a test case for that and they stuck to their guns.

    Am I just being unreasonable? In this case, I’m additionally irate about it because this contractor is a super part time grad student who will now have to pay more taxes than she should have (after a month as a contractor) and have a more complicated tax filing situation than she should have.

    1. Ellen Ripley*

      This does seem like a long time post-offer. What are they doing with that time? Is there some kind of formal background check or orientation that has to happen, or is it just the usual paperwork?

      In any case, if your group wants the turnaround time to be reduced, you’re going to have to find someone who’s got the political chops to get the HR department to buy in.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Back in my HR Admin days we did a lot of same day hires and often the paperwork wouldn’t be done until after they had worked there (sometimes for a surprisingly long time). We had to make up excuses for why the person was not entered into the E-Verify database within the first 5 days of being hired and usually I’d just say that it was an oversight and that it had been found in an audit. (It was a white lie.)

        There were lots of reasons why. Sometimes I would type a letter and have them sign it, asking for a copy of their certified birth certificate or I’d have to send employees to the social security office to get a copy of their social security card. Stuff like that. Sometimes branch offices would hire people and I wouldn’t find out about it until they’d been there for a while and expected a paycheck.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      What about people who have to work through their two week notice?

      I see the part about the contractor already there and converting over. Can he just be a contractor for that 2 week wait?

      I am not sure what is involved in onboarding a person. I watched my boss onboard me and I can tell you that we probably missed a few things. I assume HR has a checklist in place? If no, that would be a good start.
      If things are so fast paced at your place it might be an idea to hire another HR person to cover this type of thing so it gets done sooner.

  81. NewsPup*

    Hey all! Thanks to Alison’s awesome advice, I got an offer yesterday! I’m so excited. But here’s the issue: 1) the offered me less than I’m making now. 2) They want me to start right before a scheduled vacation.
    I’m still really new to the workforce (this will be my second job) so this is all so awkward to try to negotiate. Any tips?
    Thanks everyone for being an awesome community that I absolutely attribute some of my job-searching success to.

    1. fposte*

      Are there benefits that would make this salary acceptable, or is going down a deal-breaker? “I was really hoping for something more like $[salary you want presuming it’s within a reasonable distance]–is there any room for movement there?” if the offered salary may be worth it. If not, I would go with a slightly stronger “I don’t think I could leave for a salary cut” in front of that.

      And you can also say “Would it be possible to make the start date April 15? I have a trip scheduled that I’d prefer not to cancel.”

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Alison has some great tips on negotiating (link to follow, but in case it gets stuck in moderation, just do a search on the site for “negotiating” and a bunch of articles will pop up). As for the vacation, I would just let them know that you have a vacation scheduled for X dates and ask how they would like to work around that, whether you start and then go on vacation, or push the start date until after the vacation.

      2. NewsPup*

        Thank you both of you! I’m of course going to search the archives but I wanted the good vibes all you nice people send :)

    3. NewsPup*

      UPDATE: Just got off the phone and got exactly the number I wanted. Ask A Manager is a life saver for young professionals. Thank you all so much!

      3. OhBehave*

        That’s awesome! I think that’s the quickest update ever. I assume they know you have a vacation scheduled?

  82. Kore*

    How up front do you think people should be about mental health issues in an office setting? A few weeks ago I had a panic attack on a phone call and the fact that I couldn’t really explain why I was so emotional only added to my panic. I get panic attacks fairly regularly and have struggled with anxiety for years, but I don’t really know how to explain it to a coworker or manager without getting too personal for my liking.

    Also, if asking for accommodations at work, do you typically need a therapist recommendation? I currently can’t afford therapy for a variety of reasons and I’m on the hunt for affordable options, but for now I know that my work is adding a lot to my anxiety/stress levels in very specific ways.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, panic attacks suck; I’m sorry.

      I think the answer (to the opening question) depends on what are you looking to have happen. Do you know what accommodations you’re looking for or what you’d like co-workers and manager to do with this information? I’d be less likely to disclose if I didn’t have an expectation connected to the information.

      Your job is free to require documentation from a health care professional if you ask for an accommodation, but they don’t have to; it may depend on internal policy, how big the requested accommodation is, etc.

      Hope you find something that works for you!

      1. Kore*

        For me it’s mostly an explanation – the person who I was on the phone with contacted my manager afterwards and so I’m pretty sure my manager knows I was audibly upset / crying / possibly hyperventilating. Nothing really came of it, since my manager agreed I was 100% in the right on the issue I was having, but I still wonder if sounding as upset as I clearly did at that time could negatively affect my reputation in some way. So I’ve been trying to decide if being up front about my mental health difficulties as an explanation would be better or just avoiding it. Because I’m not usually someone who cries in the office or is overly emotional in an office setting, but all that goes out the window during a panic attack situation.

        1. fposte*

          Then that can go either way, IMHO, because unfortunately there’s stigma to be considered as well. So I’d say it depends on your relationship with your manager: will she be concerned about you, and will her reaction to being told you have panic attacks be to ask if there are ways to help? Then tell her. But otherwise it sounds like you’ve already had a conversation about the event, and it’s not a situation where you can say “It won’t happen again,” so unless I was sure of the manager’s sympathy I might wait until I had a specific accommodation request.

    2. Temperance*

      Does your work have an EAP that you might be able to utilize? I’m working up the courage to call mine because I’m struggling at the moment. They don’t report back to your work.

      1. Kore*

        They do but they only cover a couple of therapy sessions, beyond that it’s covered by insurance. Since I have a high deductible and a fairly high copay after that, it would be a fairly high expense for me after I used those therapy sessions.

        1. Temperance*

          You might be able to pick up some good coping strategies at the few sessions. I know that this is such a difficult subject.

          1. LQ*

            This is a good point, and specifically asking for coping strategies, let them know that you can’t do more than 3 appointments, and that you need strategies that will work for you. Think of it like going to just one physical therapy appointment to get excersizes you can do at home.

        2. Can't Sit Still*

          Some EAP therapists only take EAP clients, so they are used to getting as much done as possible in the short time frame that they do have with their clients. Maybe see if a therapist like that is available through your EAP?

          Also, find out what the repeat period is. Some EAP plans only allow, say, 3 sessions per issue, but allow 2 or 3 issues per benefit year, or allow free sessions quarterly or every 6 months, regardless of the issue. Definitely find out exactly what your EAP benefit entails and use it to your advantage. That’s what it’s there for.

          1. Dizzy Steinway*

            Also, any good therapist should be able to help with coping strategies if you only have a couple of sessions or even just one.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Do you use a headset? Does it have a mute function? I’m not sure if that would be terribly helpful or not, but I suffer pretty severe anxiety and have found it useful in the past to be able to mute my end of the call, especially if it’s very upsetting, to give me a few moments to gather my thoughts.

      For me personally, therapy wasn’t helpful, but medication is. There may be a low cost mental health center in your area that can help you with that. My meds are managed by my PCP, so that may be something else for you to consider, if you’re open to that kind of thing.

    4. Dizzy Steinway*

      You might not see this as it’s a bit late, sorry, but I’d focus on explaining what you need rather than going too deeply into the issue itself. You don’t need to tell them why you have panic attacks, or how long you’ve had them, for example, but you might say something like: I sometimes have panic attacks. If this happens I may need to stop and focus on my breathing.

      From your comment below it sounds like the panic was triggered by the client as you mentioned how you were in the right. Might it help to have training (or more training) on handling challenging calls, to write scripts for yourself and to have self-care items at your desk? E.g. I have a cuddly Pusheen I can squeeze if I’m dealing with something stressful.

  83. Catalin*

    Is there such a thing as regional job searching sites? If, for example, someone was looking for a job in the Nashville, TN area is there a local engine or a site that’s particularly helpful?

    1. Kimberlee, Esq*

      I know DC has some area-specific sites that are very good, like Tom Manatos and the WIN list. But I don’t know of a ton of other regional ones, other than like Craigslist, which is I think a reasonably common go-to in smaller towns.

    2. Epsilon Delta*

      You can try searching for “Nashville TN Jobs”. If there’s a local job site, it should come up.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Does your local newspaper have a job posting website? I’m in Los Angeles and the LA Times has their own regional job site. You might check there.

  84. TheSkrink*

    Opinions on whole-office paging: rude, or fine?

    There are a handful of senior-ish staff in our office of about a hundred who will page you repeatedly if they can’t get you on the phone right away, usually for things that are not emergencies.

    This irritates me (and every other colleague I have checked my attitude with) a lot; we are all very busy, but also very responsive. If I’m not able to take a call, it’s because I am away from my desk or working on something critical. Leave a message or send an email and it’s usually taken care of within the hour.

    FWIW these pager-loving staff tend to be generally rude and overly-demanding, so I can’t tell if that’s coloring my perception of this issue.

    Is it maybe a generational thing? My anti-paging colleagues and I are all under 40 and the pagers are all much older.

    1. Beezus*

      I would find that irritating. My current workplace uses the PA system only for emergencies (announcing building evacuations, for example). The only jobs I’ve had where paging was routine and acceptable were ones where many employees worked a shop floor or sales floor and were often not within earshot of a phone.

  85. automaticdoor*

    I am so depressed, you guys. I love my job. But I work on one of the most famous/sympathetic issues proposed for cuts in the Trump budget. It’s been a whirlwind the past two days on top of preparing for a giant conference next week and just doing my regular job. I feel super burned out already! and I had been stressed all the time anyway prior to this budget release because there were already ominous signs that we’d be facing severe cuts. It’s always an uphill battle to get funding for my topic area anyway, even in the prior administration–there just never seems to be enough funding to go around, even for such a sympathetic cause. How do I keep my chin up?

    1. overeducated*

      I don’t know but I feel the same way. Planning to post myself when I get through reading the comments.

    2. Root*

      Know that your work is important, even if the government doesn’t think so. You’re not alone, either. My aunt’s social services agency is also facing cuts, and they provide services to refugees who were tortured.

    3. LadyKelvin*

      Me too. And if the proposed budget cuts are implemented in any capacity, both me and my husband are out of a job. And we’ll probably have to leave the country to find new ones, which is terrifying. Sorry I can’t offer any advice on being positive, combined with everything else happening, I’m just barely not panicking myself.

    4. Lizabeth*

      RIF in the government as proposed by 45th will not happen IMMEDIATELY. It will take time to go through the procedures, appeals by unions etc…there was either an article or opinion piece on this in the Washington Post about this.

  86. WS*

    Is there any way to push back against being cross-trained in a different role without damaging your standing or your relationship with your boss?

    I work for a small company where we report directly to the owners. I work in the Teapots Department and report to the owner Aragorn, and I’m being asked to train under the owner Boromir in the Bakeware Department to help him with a long-term project. These are departments that, in a larger company, would have little to no overlap so there’s no career advantage in learning how to do this and frankly I’m frustrated that I’m not doing the Teapot work I was hired for so I’m even less happy about being put on Bakeware projects. But I don’t know if I can push back because it’s the owners asking me and I don’t want them to think I’m not a “team player”.

    1. Kimberlee, Esq*

      Hmm, yeah, the trickiness is that I think in a small org there’s going to be a much bigger expectation to wear more hats! Long term, if you want to stay really focused on teapots, you’ll maybe just have to find one of those bigger companies. Short term, I think you can push back a little, something like “so, I gotta admit, I’m not really pumped about doing this Bakeware work, it’s just so far from what I really came here to work on. Of course, I’m happy to help out in a pinch, but if there’s another option for us to make Bakewear work, maybe we can discuss it?”

    2. Chaordic One*

      I hate this. It seems like I always end up having to “fill in” for the receptionist. “Oh, everyone needs to pitch in. Why, back in 2009 one of the department heads filled in for the receptionist.”

  87. asteramella*

    Recommendations for professional-looking bags suitable for a graduate student?

    I’m entering a professional grad program this fall and need a new bag that can hold a 15″ laptop and books that looks nice enough that I can carry it to an office job.

    My current office has a really relaxed dress code and I’m still carrying the canvas messenger bag I used in undergrad several years ago. It’s pretty tattered now and I’d like to upgrade to something durable and practical but still nice-looking. I’m looking for…
    – Carried on the shoulder (not crossbody and not a backpack)
    – Can fit 15″ laptop
    – Zip top
    – Interior organizing pockets
    – Under $300

    I’ve been online window-shopping but I’m overwhelmed by choices, so just wondering if anyone in the commentariat has a bag they really love! I’m finding a lot of spacious, organized bags that look really casual, and a lot of beautiful upscale bags that aren’t quite big enough to hold a 15″ laptop and books at the same time :S I have checked Corporette but all their picks from the last 2 years are either too small or wayyy out of my price range.

    1. Collie*

      I woefully decided to stop using a backpack at work (although it was acceptable, I worried it might ding me a little in terms of rep) and got a decent-sized bag from Ross. Took a bit of time, popping in now and then to see what they had and finding something I liked each week, but I was happy with what I got; it was $20 and over a year later, it’s holding up beautifully, too.

    2. Here we go again*

      Curious as to why you don’t prefer a backpack? I’ve found acceptable professional bags to be a very regional thing. When I was in the Midwest, backpacks would never fly, but where I am now, 50+% of people of all ages at my work use backpacks and it seems like they are getting more popular by the day around the country. I just switched to a backpack at the beginning of the year from a tote bag (just started grad school myself) and I LOVE It. It has made my life so much easier. I felt weird the first couple of weeks, but now I own the look.

      1. Bork*

        Same! I can’t believe I lugged around a shoulder bag for so long. Once I moved over to my IT position, I got a back pack. I would have gone for black, but everyone else has black so mine is plum.

      2. asteramella*

        It’s a weird reason. I live in a hot region so I’d be wearing the backpack over just a shirt instead of a jacket or coat. I found that when I carried a backpack for school, the bottom of the bag rubbed on my lower back and would mess up my shirts–woven shirts would just wrinkle and come untucked (fine) and knit shirts would pill up irreparably (bad).

        I don’t know anyone else who has this problem so maybe it’s just something about how my body is shaped?

        1. Manders*

          Would a smaller bag with adjustable straps fix that problem? School backpacks are usually larger and heavier than what you’d be carrying for work.

        2. Here we go again*

          Not a weird reason at all! There are some very ergonomically-friendly backpacks these days, and with your budget, you will definitely have options, so I wouldn’t rule it out completely. I don’t have suggestions on the shoulder bags though… I know some people at work have a rolling briefcase and it looks like they have an easy time with it.

    3. Tomato Frog*

      Oh man I was looking for the exact same thing two years ago (except I needed it to hold computer + lunch instead of books). Spoiler: I did not end up finding it. I ended up giving up on the zipper top and getting a beautiful black leather Kelsi Dagger bag, that is a little inconveniently large but is capacious and still sleek-looking (I don’t believe they make it anymore, though). However, these days I mostly carry one of those nylon Longchamp totes that zip up and have the leather closure. It is not rich in interior pockets (I use pouches) but it’s held up beautifully. It was hand-me-down and I’ve used it almost every weekday for about a year, and it’s still in great condition. I overload it and spill things in it and set it on the subway floor and it still looks good.

    4. Kimberlee, Esq*

      Kate Spade has several bags that would hold a 15 inch laptop and hover around the $300 mark. They are also well-structured so they look very sharp and professional, while having a lot of variety in color and style. :)
      https://www.katespade.com/handbags/totes/

      Overall, I think your key search term should be “tote,” in my experience, most vertical totes can carry a 15″ laptop, though finding zip ones might be tougher. I used to require zips on my bags, but I abandoned that criteria and haven’t had issues with ruining my computer in the rain or anything.

      1. Red Reader*

        Dooney and Bourke has some totes in the price range that zip as well. Mine are all Disney-themed, but they have a range of colors and prints.

      2. AnonAnalyst*

        I have a couple of Tumi totes that I rotate as work bags that are also in this price range. Both the nylon and leather versions have held up really well. I went for zip-top styles because I was always paranoid about having small things fall out of my old open totes, and Tumi was one of the few brands I could find that actually offered zip tops on the bags big enough for a laptop.

    5. periwinkle*

      Why not get another messenger bag? That style seems to fit the bill and there are plenty that would work in a typical office. I’m an unabashed fan of Timbuk2 bags; their Proof messenger bag ($228) is waxed canvas with leather trim and looks quite handsome.

      I carry a not-black Timbuk2 backpack to work at HugeCorporation. It’s fine. The company issues a heavy, hulking black Swiss Gear backpack to employees to go along with our heavy hulking laptops. I amuse myself at certain airports by playing “spot the HugeCorporation employee” – the backpack is a telltale sign.

    6. mreasy*

      Everlane Petra Market is a bit over $300 but it’s an incredible bag that will last forever (full disclosure: I got mine as a gift), and does everything you ask! Matt and Nat is an animal-free and less-expensive alternative, with chic and businesslike handbags in many sizes. I have one of their “Schlepp” totes that also fits my laptop & lots of other needs, and was under $150, like most of their lovely bags.

      1. mreasy*

        Oh! Neither of these zip, but they do snap. I have a Coach tote I got on sale for under $300 that zips, but it does seem rare. (Matt & Nat’s website has some nice-looking ones with zips, though.) I now realize I seem like a crazy purse-hound. That is not entirely accurate but slightly.

    7. Meg*

      The Capitol Hill Style blog has done a whole bunch of posts on attractive bags that can fit a laptop. I bet if you search her archives, you can find some good ideas!

    8. IA grad*

      Lo & Sons has fantastic bags that are very professional looking but can still hold TONS. I got one when starting grad school and it has held up wonderfully. It has handle to hold like a normal bag or a longer shoulder strap if you prefer. I think they are under $200 as well. Definitely worth checking out!

    9. The JMP*

      https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AV3UPOM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

      I’ve had this one for 2+ years and it’s survived being shoved under airplane seats/thrown into the car dozens of times and is still in very good shape. A 15-inch laptop in sleeve is a little tight but it will fit, without the sleeve it will fit in any of the three pockets. Lots of interior pockets. It is a little on the large/heavy side if you don’t actually need all that space. But I’d buy it again for twice the price without hesitating.

    11. OhBehave*

      TJ Maxx has some great bags. I have a red leatherish one that I love. It’s got several compartments and fits a laptop perfectly. I think I only paid $50.00 for it.

  88. SophieChotek*

    Do you notice what other people wear? (at work)

    I am doing my 2nd job doing grading (in an office with like 50 other people). My evening gig. Running from FT day job to evening job is not so fun, but the extra money helps.

    anyway…I think it was because of a comment in open thread a few weeks back — someone commented how someone aways seems to wear the same clothes, but then later went shopping with this other person at JCPenny, other person needed different clothes b/c lost/gained weight or something.

    Anyway….I don’t actually wear the same thing every night. But I bet I look like I do. It’s always cold, so I never take my jacket off. (Okay, I do sometimes wear the same jeans a few days in a row, or more than once in a week). I do change my shirts etc., but you never see it because i never take my coat off. I shower, etc. so I am pretty sure I don’t smell (gosh I hope not). I just try to wear jeans, turtlenecks, sweater, sweatshirts, something comfy as well sit in chairs and stare at computers and don’t talk to each other.

    I guess I’m curious, in this situation when everyone is staring at computer screens…do you even notice what other people are wearing?

    I don’t honestly think I’ll try to to make it more obvious that Yes I change my Clothes, I am not wearing the Same Thing Every Night…but suddenly I am worrying people might secretly think that.

    1. Uncivil Engineer*

      The only time I really notice what people wear at work is when their clothing is inappropriate for the office.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Same. I would notice if people wore sweats or a band t-shirt that didn’t seem appropriate. Otherwise, only if it’s something really cute or flattering.

    2. Leatherwings*

      If someone has a particularly bright top or something, I might notice when they wear it but I’d never think to make a note of how often. Otherwise, I nearly never notice.

    3. fposte*

      I look at other people for ideas about what I’d like to wear, but I rarely think about it longitudinally; save for a few really snappy dressers in the building, my noticing is more of the “Cool scarf!” kind of noticing.

    4. LizB*

      I don’t think I notice how often people wear a particular thing, but if I did notice a coworker wearing what appeared to be the same clothes every day, I would just assume they owned a lot of identical/very similar pieces of clothing. There’s been a bit of trend recently about having a “personal uniform” (especially for women, to push back against the focus on women’s wardrobes instead of their work), and on top of that I know that when I find a piece of clothing that fits well and is work-appropriate, I often buy several of it if I can because it’s not easy for me to find nice work clothes.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Thanks. I do own a lot of identiical/similar pieces and there are times when I wish now I had purchased multiples of something I liked that fit well because I’ve never found something I liked as much.

    5. asteramella*

      I’d notice if someone wore their coat every day, but I’d assume that they were just cold and that they were changing their other clothes daily. I think you’re safe :)

    6. Manders*

      I have a sense of my coworkers’ general styles, and I might complement them if they’re wearing a particularly snappy piece, but I don’t think I would notice someone wearing the same pair of neutral pants for weeks on end.

      I did once follow a total stranger around at a conference because he was wearing the exact same outfit as my boss. For some reason, half the men at that conference turned up in virtually identical blue checked shirts. So I do notice general trends of how people dress but I couldn’t describe a specific outfit someone wore yesterday.

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      I don’t notice things like “Sophie’s wearing that same shirt she wore two days ago!” I do notice things like “Sophie wears black knit pants every single day – I wonder if it’s the same pair, or she has five identical pairs of black knit pants?” (because I actually do work with that person) or “dang, Sophie always dresses so cute, I wish I had her style!” (because I also work with that person).

      But if you never take your coat off, how would anybody know? If you’re worried about it, I guess maybe you could get a second coat, now that they’re on sale, just to mix things up. But I don’t think anyone would consider it weird that you wear the same coat all the time.

    8. La Revancha del Tango*

      I sometimes notice when my coworkers wear the same shirt often but I could care less (for reference I’m 30 and a female). I have about 6 work blouses plus a couple of sweaters and I have the same pair of pants in 3 colors and that is all I wear to work. I’m sure I look the same every day. Worrying about if people think you wear the same clothes every day is not something worth worrying over :)

    9. Tomato Frog*

      When I see someone wearing what seems to be the same thing/nearly the same thing over and over again, I think they are smart and efficient and probably have a capsule wardrobe. It would be different if their clothes were in bad condition or smelly or something, but if everything is neat and clean I seriously just think “I should do something like that.”

    10. Jan Levinson*

      I notice on my supervisor’s outfits because they are usually inappropriate for business casual.

      She often wears black cargo pants, assumingly trying to pull them off as black work slacks. She also has some odd clothing choices in tops – lot of sweaters with cartoon characters on them, and one sweater with a snowman and presents on it, that she has worn in both September, and March. Lol.

    11. INTP*

      I notice clothes that are inappropriate, or clothes that I really like. I don’t really keep track of the frequency with which people wear certain things or outfits. It’s pretty common for people to keep an “office sweater” or jacket that they wear all the time, so I wouldn’t notice that.

    12. LQ*

      I think I mostly notice jewelry. I’d say I also have a general sense of style or if it is inappropriate. A forever ago I had a coworker who had like 10 of the same outfit and it was all she wore, I didn’t realize this until years and years later and we were talking about clothing in an outside of work context and I was saying that I was having a hard time. She just bought like 30 of the same pieces and has rotated them though as they’ve worn out, she dreads the day she runs out. I didn’t even know.

    13. Hrovitnir*

      I notice so little that my input may be unhelpful, but personally I actively prefer to have a few pairs of exactly the same jeans, variations on the same t-shirt, and similar warm items and no one’s ever seemed to notice. *shrug* I wear clean clothing and am clean so am not worried about smelling… so for me, I don’t think it matters! I doubly don’t think it matters when you’re doing something like grading.

      1. Bibliovore*

        I never notice. On the other hand when I like something that I am wearing, I buy multiples in the same color. My palate is black and grey and more black.

        1. Hrovitnir*

          Nice. I have a whole bunch of matching t-shirts from Etsy that are variations on dark grey/black with screenprints of animals on them. :P

        2. SophieChotek*

          Me too. I couldn’t wear green for St. Patrick’s Day because my wardrobe is black, grey, white, navy blue, sky blue, black, black, and 1 red dressy top my mom convinced me to buy.
          I also buy multiples in the same color, or the same shirt in blue, black, white, and gray…

    14. Trixie*

      I’m looking for that Open Thread comment about the same clothes. I’m that person in my office. I went from a very casual small-nonprofit office in a desert climate to unemployment to a more professional setting with business casual in an Eastern climate. Almost immediately I had very pieces and then money was so tight it wasn’t a priority. I truly think the folks in my immediate department have no clue it’s because of financial reasons, while they’re shopping every week and getting all done up. (They really like clothes, hair, make-up.) Even if I found a few more pieces to fill out my sparse wardrobe, I have no interest in dressing better just for this job. Maybe in a future setting where my style is more “common” Ill have more interest in sharing notes and tips. Here I’m just a barely-employed fish out of water.

    1. Charlie Q*

      This had lots of wide-eyed emojis after it that apparently don’t post. Instead: yikes! I’m so nervous!

  90. Piano girl*

    I was laid off (with a two-week notice) last Friday after for nearly eight years (I had previously worked here for about a year and half before being laid off for three weeks). I have been given a pretty nice severance package and will be receiving my unused PTO in my final check. I was never on the health insurance here (my husband carries the insurance for our family) so that’s not an issue.
    My boss was in tears as she told me, and my immediate supervisor was so upset he couldn’t look at me. As it turns out, I had been thinking about possibly quitting due to some new health concerns (I had been diagnosed with diabetes a week before – not the best week). My boss and my supervisor have offered to write me letters of recommendation and serve as references. The thing is, I’m seeing this as a great opportunity to step back and take care of myself for awhile. Between the six months of severance and unemployment, I shouldn’t need to work for quite some time.
    A couple of questions for when I decide to re-enter the workforce – should I indicate on my resume that I was laid off twice (highlighting that they didn’t want to let me go either time), and what do I say about the work gap? Can I just state that I had health concerns that I needed to take care of before returning to work? Also, I had asked for a promotion a few months ago (when raises were poor) which was agreed to by my boss but not the president of the company. My boss had indicated that her letter of reference will recognize that I should have received the promotion. Should I adjust my resume to show that?
    Last, I would like to thank Alison, AaM, and everybody here for helping me work through some of the challenges I have had. Thanks!

    1. asteramella*

      I’m not sure what “quite some time” means in this context–whether you’re thinking of a gap of 6 months or a gap of several years.

      If less than a year, I think you could easily explain the work gap by stating that you were taking time to work on personal projects and be selective about your next job after the layoff.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I wouldn’t mention about the promotion nor use it on your resume. Your boss said she would mention it as part of her advocacy.

    3. AJennifer*

      “Between the six months of severance and unemployment, I shouldn’t need to work for quite some time.” Be aware that your severance will effect your unemployment benefits, and the effect will vary based on how your employer pays it. But mostly be aware that your unemployment benefits are contingent upon your active pursuit of a new job. You don’t just get a paid vacation, whether it’s to tend to your health or not.

      For your resume, I would leave the first layoff period since it was so short and you returned to work at the same company. I would also not include a promotion that you never got on your resume, and rely on your references to speak to your worth. MAYBE you could find a way to work that into a cover letter, if it were only thwarted by a restructuring, but it doesn’t seem that was the case. Regardless of when you decide to look for work again, I wouldn’t mention a health issue. It’s a lot easier to say that after 10 years at the same job and a sudden layoff, since your family could afford you some time, you decided to use that time to determine what is the best career move for you and have decided…..

  91. John Ames Boughton*

    Hey all, here’s a question for the group: we talk a bit about impostor syndrome and feeling like you aren’t actually good enough. But have you ever experienced what I’m gonna call “Position Impostor Syndrome?” What I mean by that is, I’m pretty sure I’m actually good at my job (yay me!). But I’m not at all sure that there’s any reason for my position to exist – partly because my duties are kind of disjointed, partly because I can get them all done in about 20 hours a week, and partly because most people at the company don’t know what I do or ever interact with me. I’m pretty sure the company could get rid of the position, save a bunch of money, and not be damaged at all, and it worries me that they’ll eventually figure this out. Thoughts?

    1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      I’ve had this problem! I think the best thing to do is figure out what else you can take on that actually will be valued by your company and start doing it. Especially if you have the bandwidth to get your job done in 20 hours a week, take on a project that your leadership might find useful, and show your value that way. I’ve had several job-morphs/promotions due to this type of initiative. The key thing is to make sure that whatever you take on really adds value to the company, possibly in a way that your current position doesn’t, and that can be tricky to identify.

  92. Grad student*

    I have a problem that I’m not really sure how to handle appropriately. I’m a graduate student at a university where some of the students are trying to form a union. I firmly believe that it would not be in our best interest to unionize (it has to do with the details that I won’t get into here since they seem largely irrelevant to my question. Unions can be useful but not in these particular circumstances and in this form). How can I share facts about unionization and my opinions on it in a non-aggressive way? I don’t want to alienate people, but I am concerned by the amount of confusion and misinformation that is spreading on campus.

    1. fposte*

      Can you encourage an open meeting with discussion about pros and cons? Critical inquiry would seem to be a logical grad-school component of this process.

    3. Turkletina*

      First, a disclaimer: I’ve been on the opposite side of this issue. I have strong feelings about it and will not get into a discussion about the merits of unionization here.

      If your university is anything like mine, most people are disinterested in the question of unionization (In my experience, there’s not a lot of consciousness among grad student that they should even think of themselves as workers). Lots of them don’t know what it means. Many of them won’t care either way no matter what you say. But the way to get people to listen is to talk to them! One-on-one works. Stand in a central location and hand people flyers (quarter-sheets are best, because people won’t get so overwhelmed.) Small groups work. If you can, organize a meeting with the grad students in your department (or lab or sub-field, or whatever) to talk about it. If you have friends in other departments, see if you can organize a meeting in those other departments. For people who aren’t that likely to be on your side, it might be best to get together with a respectful pro-union colleague and call the meeting a “town hall”.

      If there’s a good amount of pro-union organizing going on, try to make sure that your voice is represented at any events they have. If there’s going to be a formal vote (as opposed to a 50%-plus-1 collection campaign), this might be easier since people have expectations about equal time in campaigns.

      Really, though, just talk to people. Be friendly. Some of them will disagree. Some of them might even slam their lab door in your face. It’s politics; don’t take it personally!

      1. Grad student*

        Thanks for the advice! I have been hesitant to bring up the topic 1 on 1 with people I don’t already know well mostly because the pro-union students have been very aggressive about it and people are feeling harassed. I definitely don’t want someone to think I am harassing them or that I won’t respect their informed decision if they decide that they do want a union. I want to be more vocal because I think it is important to present both sides, but I also know that it is often inappropriate to talk about political issues at work (and unionization is inherently political).

        1. Turkletina*

          Yeah, I completely understand. I think that, when something is this political, people expect to be… not harassed per se, but… approached. As long as you respect people’s boundaries and try not to take it personally if folks disagree, I don’t think you’ll be seen as crossing a line. And, honestly, it’s work politics; there’s unfortunately no other place to approach people about it other than work.

        2. Elizabeth H.*

          I agree with you – I think grad students in a lot of places should get better benefits but imo unionization is not appropriate for what it is. I worked at a grad school and then was a grad student. I definitely appreciated the benefits thing better when I actually didn’t have dental insurance for a year but I kept my opinion on unions.

  93. anonymoney*

    How long would you wait for a “new role” to develop when you were already considering leaving?

    I originally took this job (relocating to do so) about a year ago. It was not as advertised and I was not happy, but it pays well and it’s a recognizable name on my resume. Two months ago, they reorged and I was allegedly getting a role and team shift into the work I was originally told I’d be doing. Except that was two months ago, and now I still have basically nothing to do all day.

    It sounds crazy to complain, but I’m incredibly bored, and I’m completely isolated from my new department due to some *other* Initiative Team I’ve been assigned to… which also has little to no actual work for me to do, and is even less the direction I want to take my career. My new manager is distant and not much help, since the new team is a pilot project with no clear roadmap for 2017.

    I was planning to quit soon, but I’m not sure if I should try and wait this out. I already have a job to hop to – it’s a major pay cut (startup!) but big quality of life and career direction gain. I don’t really need the money, I’ve got plenty of buffer, but I’m having a hard time giving it up!

    Am I crazy? Have any of you taken big pay cuts and been quite happy about it?

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      Two months after a major reorg doesn’t seem like THAT long to me. More like six is I think where I would start to question things. Especially if a major pay cut is involved. Remember that a pay cut isn’t just now — it’s going to affect your future earnings because employers so often base what they offer you on what you’re currently making, even if you’re underpaid.

    2. Anon Anon*

      I wouldn’t wait it out. It’s been more than a year. Which I think is enough time to determine the direction of the position.

      And life is short. Do what makes you happy, especially if you can afford it!

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Mr. Shackelford left a job not long after they started talking about a New Role they wanted to transition him into. They were surprised and disappointed, and encouraged him to change his mind because New Role. That was almost a decade ago. The New Role never did come about. Bird in the hand, two in the bush, yada yada yada.

      1. anonymoney*

        The New Role and New Team have already been assembled, but have not actually started working together on anything. I told my new manager that I am wildly under capacity and was hoping to get more information on tangible next steps and things to do and team goals. His response was that we’re still “laying out our roadmap” to “get buy-in from our business partners.” Have heard from him exactly one time in the two months since I was transferred.

        I think I’ve been moved into a more strategy/business role, which is exactly the opposite of what I want to be doing in a 10000+ employee corporation where getting anything done requires meeting with 17 stakeholder groups. I guess the writing’s on the wall, I just keep begging someone to tell me I’m not insane for feeling this way.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          I think I’ve been moved into a more strategy/business role, which is exactly the opposite of what I want to be doing in a 10000+ employee corporation where getting anything done requires meeting with 17 stakeholder groups. I guess the writing’s on the wall, I just keep begging someone to tell me I’m not insane for feeling this way.

          You’re not insane.

  94. anon for this*

    I’m in a bit of a a tricky situation when it comes to references. I’m in my first post-university job, and so all of my good, relevant references are at my current workplace. I’ve applied for a couple of jobs in my field, but I’m not sure how to handle the references–if I did get to the offer stage, is it crazy to expect my current manager to give me a reference right after I let her know I’m leaving? Should I contact previous managers for potential references just in case? The problem is I really don’t have any strong references from before this position (not for nefarious reasons–just because they’re all from unrelated internships, they’re out of date, and one of my past employers has an anti-reference policy).

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Besides the typical “we want past managers’ information” and might use it to confirm employment or ask about your work… I wouldn’t use a current manager as a legitimate reference. You need the person’s permission to use them and the job is likely to call your references before they offer you the job.

      You’d have to let them know you’re job-hunting. Do you and your manager have that open of a relationship?

      I asked a couple team members at OldJob who I worked closely and I trusted to know that I was job hunting (even better, one of them had left OldJob a couple months before I did, so I felt very comfortable asking her).

  95. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    I’m fairly new to the big corporate job world (been at my Fortune 200 company for a little over a year) and I’m wondering how to judge jobs within the company that I’m suited for and/or are at the right salary level. All the jobs I’ve had before this were for much smaller companies where it was easier to know what each role entailed. I’m looking to move up within my company, but I’m having a hard time parsing the internal job listings to figure out whether they are at my level or below. I can usually tell the ones that are too senior for me, but I can’t always tell whether something is too junior or a lateral move. My role at my company currently is unique, so that makes it harder to judge as well. I also don’t want to tip off my current boss that I want to move up out of my current position (as she has a history of stonewalling and becoming resentful of employees who leave her team). Is there a secret to big-company networking to figure this stuff out?

    1. periwinkle*

      Fortune 50 employee here. In huge companies, you’re so distant from other roles that, as you noted, it’s tough to figure out what’s out there and how to move around. Very early on, I realized that one of my colleagues had a big network – he was a quiet intellectual person, but had been with the company for many years and in many roles. If I had a question and he didn’t know the answer, he invariably knew someone who might know, and that person might not know but would know someone else – eventually the chain would find someone who knew the answer. Three years later, I have a good chain of people. I help them, they help me. Some I see regularly, others I’ve never even met in person. This week I had a question about software for data analysis. Our IT department is bigger than most companies and there’s no central starting point. But I knew someone… four chain links later I got permission to install the software that I didn’t even know we had available.

      Cultivate your chains. You know people. They know people. Those people know people. When you see a listing for another department, do you know someone who might know someone who might have some information about that group and that role?

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        This is great advice. Thank you! It’s pretty much what I’m trying to do. I’m in a tiny department, so trying to build a network of people I can ask has been slow. I’ll work on it. :)

  96. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

    I’m still new to AAM and I love this site. My question is about dream jobs. I see people seeking them out all the time here. I was fortunate in that last year I found my dream job. It’s everything that I want in a job at this stage of my life. It’s part-time, pays much more than my last job and it’s in my field so my learning curve was low. The clients are seniors and most are sweethearts. I’m an introvert and most of the work is done by myself but I can interact with other staff members if I want but can always stay at my work station being busy without guilt if I don’t feel like being social. I quit my last toxic job without a new job lined up because it was so awful. I look forward to going into work every day which is a great feeling.
    My question is, did you get your dream job and it was it everything that you expected? Were you disappointed that it wasn’t?

    2. Dr. KMnO4*

      Except for the fact that it’s a temporary position, I have my dream job. And it is everything I expected. I love the work, I like my coworkers, the flexibility and autonomy is amazing.

      1. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

        I’m glad to hear that. Now that I’m happy I want other people to be happy as well. Life is too short to spend the majority of it working in misery.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I agree with Alison about dream jobs. From what I saw it’s because nothing remains the same, everything changes.

      The job I loved the most turned out to be harming my health, the raises were very slim, and there was no opportunity for growth. I did not know any of this when I started.

      The value of Alison’s advice is that it protects us from major let downs. Currently, I work for two great bosses. There are things about the one job that lead me to say, I don’t know if I would work for someone else doing this. But for now I am happy with my job and I think that is about as good as it gets most times.

  97. Can't Sit Still*

    I started my new job this week and so far, so good. However, they have BYOD for cell phones. I am ambivalent about it. They don’t have any apps to install or anything, just add your work email to your phone. IT cannot remotely access our devices. I really don’t want my personal cell number out there in the wild, though.

    My cell phone is due for an upgrade soon. Should I convert my current phone to a work phone and make the upgrade my personal phone? I have always been told “feel free to put personal things on your company phone, but never allow the company to put things on your personal phone” but this seems like it might be different, since the company isn’t installing anything?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Can you get a Google Voice number that you use for business correspondence only? That way, your personal number isn’t “out in the wild” and you have the ability to screen calls coming through the Google Voice number when you’re decidedly off work.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        This. It’s free and easy to have a separate GV number that rings through to your cell phone. And you can set any incoming number that you’ve added to your contacts to go straight to voicemail instead of ringing your cell, if you want, or only allow permitted numbers to ring through and everything else goes to voicemail (that’s what I do, but I don’t use it for work).

    2. Scarlott*

      If its BYOD, are they paying for your service? I mean you could have a separate personal device if you want, but unless you’re making personal calls overseas, it shouldn’t matter at all, unless your worried about being contacted 24/7 for work, in which case you can set your phone to ignore those calls during the evening and weekends (what’s the difference really between doing that and having a separate phone?).

    3. Root*

      I’ve never been fond of mixing work and home; we sometimes used our personal phones at work if the work phone died, and I always hated having to do that. I like your idea of using your current/old phone for work and your new one as a personal phone.

      Love the username. I can’t sit still either.

  98. J.B.*

    Information Science question:

    I know there are several librarians on here who have indicated that the job market isn’t so hot. I am interested in an information science program which would result in a Master of Science in Information Science degree, with a focus on databases. The program within a school of library and information science seems to come at it from a more human perspective – in other words, how do people intend to use the database and therefore how to program it more broadly – than computer science programs do. Would there be any job prospects in the real world?

    If not, I’ll probably still do some courses for my own interest, but not pursue a full degree. Thanks!

    1. Info Science Person*

      Hell yes. Tons of jobs. Especially if you learn the technical skills that would be relevant to those roles. I think that when people say the field is shrinking, they mean traditional library jobs. The tech side of it is booming.

    2. Hrovitnir*

      I’m not sure if this is useful, as it might be a bit too into biology for you, but from what I can tell there still aren’t a tonne of jobs in the area you describe, though more than being a regular librarian probably. I’m sure someone else here will know better. What is an incredibly fast growing field though is bioinformatics. That’s mostly programming and algorithms and all the stuff that most people who get into biology because they love research hate.

      Definitely resembles “how do people intend to use the database and how to program it”, and in terms of data, we’re talking countries like Sweden having ~10 petabytes of parallel storage for their government genetics programme and they’re really worried about what to do as they generate exponentially more. So much data someone needs to analyse. And of course as the realities of precision medicine become more and more prevalent you’re going to need systems that doctors can use to deal with data generation that is nothing like current biochemical testing.

      You do have to learn a lot of biology, of course. And it might not be remotely interesting to you. But woah boy is that a better field for jobs than standard molecular biomed and it can take you into a bunch of directions within academia or industry or healthcare. Don’t mind me if that’s 0% exciting to you. :D

      1. Hrovitnir*

        OK, I’m well wrong about information science, haha! I just like to spread the gospel of bioinformatics, because I wish I liked programming enough to go into that area, but it turns me off so hard.

        1. Info Science Person*

          That sounds like an interesting field. What are the requirements to get into it?

  99. J*

    [semi-anon today]
    This week, I had a check-in about performance with my reports, as the end-year review is just a few months away. Channelling my boss and my inner Alison, I had an honest conversation with one of them – about how she is not meeting expectations in some important areas.

    …and she cried. I said my piece, she said she was too demoralized to reply, and we left it at that. Not the most productive meeting I’ve had, but thanks to all these years of reading AAM I at least knew this *could* happen and I don’t feel bad for “making her” cry. I figure it’s better to give her this feedback now rather than waiting until the official review period, when it would be too late to make any changes.

    And, if I’m lucky, she will shape up (unlikely) or decide to leave on her own! A firing process can take up to a year here and it sounds exhausting for all parties involved…

    1. Scarlott*

      Good for you. Much better she hears it now than in an end of year review. I would much rather be given notice that I’m not up to standards than get blind sided.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      Kudos to you for not losing your cool! It’s never easy when a direct report gets emotional.

      1. J*

        I think I was too calm, actually… I don’t know if it’s just because I’ve been reading AAM for so long or I’m actually cold-hearted deep down inside!

        1. Hrovitnir*

          I dunno. It’s awkward if someone seems actively cold and it’s nice if you can project “I’m not judging you”, but as someone who cries easily when it comes to any serious conversation (I hate it with the fire of a thousand suns) there is nothing I want more than you to pretend I’m not doing that.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I have been too calm myself and questioned if I still had a heart.

          Sometimes there are situations that are so basic it’s hard to feel emotional for the person.

          Me: You have to be on time.
          Person: Whaaaat???? boohoo, boohoo.

          Me: You have been here almost a year, you have known right along that this position demands punctuality. There’s no surprises going on here. I am not asking anything more than everyone else, including me, is doing. It’s what the job calls for.

          At this point, I feel like I am explaining that the grass is green, the sky is blue and two plus two equals four. It is what it is and I cannot change it, I cannot make exceptions and this is what we have to do.

          On the other hand there are things that come up where my heart goes out to the person. For example an employee that was told to dress better. She got given a list of thrift stores that people had good luck with, when she said money was an issue.

          A good tip someone gave me: A truly cold hearted person would never wonder if they were cold hearted.

          1. Jen RO*

            You’re probably not going to read this, but thank you. I feel like my situation was very similar to your example (I had to explain that, for this writing job, all employee must have writing skills), so I am feeling a bit less cold-hearted.

    3. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Oh, that’s tough, so good on you for having the difficult conversation with her. I went through a similar situation with an employee. She was so upset that I suggested we stop the conversation and pick it up the next day (this was after an hour of talking and crying). When we re-engaged, we focused on what she needed to do and how I was going to support her.

  100. Kit M. Harding*

    What is the proper answer to “Why should we hire you?” in an interview. I’ve been asked this several times now and I’m always thinking “…because I’m good at it?” I don’t know what the rest of their applicant pool looks like, so I’ve got no idea how I might be better than other people they’re looking at!

  101. Scarlott*

    What do you guys do when work is really really slow? (other than spend time on AAM of course). I’ve started this new job with a much higher pay and better benefits, but can’t seem to ever really be busy. I’ve tapped out all the training I could do. The work isn’t really there, but I suspect it will pick up. What do you do to stay busy?

    1. DevAssist*

      Update your job description/handbook if you can. Really sharpen your organizational system(s). Look over relevant software tutorials on Youtube, Lynda, etc. If helping a coworker is an option, see if they have anything you can assist them with. Review your inbox and triple check to see if anything needs follow-up.

    2. Murphy*

      Come up with an SOP for your job duties if there isn’t one. You never know when you’ll need one I started one a long time ago, but never made much headway with it. With my impending maternity leave I had to crosstrain a few people on all of my activities, and it would have been great to have that already written!

  102. Anon for this*

    Anon for this — I’ll out myself after I do the deed!

    Have any of you resigned with a negative PTO balance? If so, was your employer aggressive in recouping the balance? Did they dock your last paycheck?

    I’m planning to resign very soon and if you count only my regular PTO balance, I’m in the red. However, last year my company offered a free week of PTO, to be claimed in 2017, to any employee who worked for all of 2016. If I claim that week, I’m in the black. I did document this via email to HR like I was supposed to, but never received a confirmation (although I did get it from my boss).

    Based on previous experience that companies get nickel-and-dimey once they realize you’re leaving, I wouldn’t put it past HR to try and dock me for the overage. At that point I don’t really know or care what legal recourse I have — it would probably cost me more to pay a lawyer than the money I’d get back — but WWYD if this happens? Just out them on Glassdoor and be done with it?

    1. Anon for this*

      To clarify: I wouldn’t put it past HR to play dumb and “we never confirmed that you could use those days then.” I’ve worked at a previous company that docked my last paycheck even though I’d been promised comp time for working plenty of 16-hour days — HR basically said, “we don’t know anything about that, so it doesn’t exist.”

    2. EddieSherbert*

      My LastJob docked it from my final paycheck for the PTO I used that “hadn’t earned yet” for that year… which was annoying since it was really REALLY hard to find in their handbook – I had checked – and several people who had worked there for YEARS reassured me the company didn’t do tha (including someone in HR…).

      I let the head of HR know I was displeased and that they should make the policy more obvious in their handbook (they probably didn’t) since apparently no one knows about it. And I hit up Glassdoor. And called it a day.

      It just wasn’t worth it to pursue anything – all I wanted at that point was to severe my ties with them.

    3. La Revancha del Tango*

      It’s possible they will deduct your negative PTO from your last paycheck. I wouldn’t “out” them on Glassdoor, it’s normal practice for deducting a negative PTO from a resigning employee. Let’s hope they will let you use that extra time from 2016 to put you at Zero so you don’t get deducted but also don’t get money from a positive balance.

    4. Gracie*

      I’d make sure you have everything in writing that you earned that extra week of pto. Their offer and your boss saying that you met the guidelines at least. I’m not sure about legal stuff but if they took it is try to fight it with what you have at least. My post to glass door would depend on that outcome

    5. The Unkind Raven*

      I think I need some clarification- how is it “nickle and dimey ” of them to recoup what you owe?

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I think your situation is unique because you filled your part of the deal in 2016. It’s their turn to pay up. Since your boss agreed that you are in the black, maybe she is the person to check with to make sure you get proper credit.

    7. Jerry Vandesic*

      Don’t bother with a lawyer, but do contact your state department of labor. A letter from the labor department will influence your employer much more than a lawyer. Make sure you document your additional week, and show the calculations that you have a positive balance with that week added for 2017.

  103. Asking for a friend...*

    Does anyone know of any job posting sites for social work/care giving/working with children or people with disabilities? When i do a “key word + job board” search I usually only end up with Idealist or Indeed.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Maybe Sittercity.com or Care.com, depending on what they’re looking for?

      I’d probably start by searching by businesses… YMCA, non-profits, government, assisted living organizations (but I don’t have experience in those roles!).

    2. Chaordic One*

      Where I live, there are a lot of such job offered by state-run institutions and you can find the jobs listed on state websites. Not so much for city, county or federally funded institutions here, but you might try looking at such websites, too.

  104. Anon Anon*

    This is more of a vent really.

    It’s bonus season, which is great. But, I’m not a fan how opaque the entire process is. We have incentives targets that are company wide, and then bonus is up to a certain percentage based on your performance. Which would be great if my company bothered to performance reviews more than once every five years. So half the time you open the check and you don’t know if it will be for $50 or $5000.

    I’m grateful for the additional cash. I just wish that the process and determining how these bonuses were calculated was more transparent.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I’d mention this on my eval….. five years from now. I would also keep track of the bonuses I get each year so I was not straining to figure out if there was a pattern to my bonus.

  105. 122101102*

    A person I work with yelled/reprimanded me on Skype and assumed that I was telling them to do their job. This person takes everything personally and doesn’t allow room for anything that doesn’t fit their narrative/worldview. They are quick to confront people they feel have crossed them.

    While it hasn’t affected the quality of my work, it has definitely affected how I interact with other people at work. Now I always feel like I’m holding my breath in anticipation that I will be yelled at or physically hurt. I would go out of my way to avoid interacting with people, both in person and online.

    1. Future Analyst*

      Ugh. Same here (though my yeller vacillates between acting like we’re besties and treating me like I’m the dumbest person ever who’s doing everything wrong). I actually found that not engaging with her on Skype helped– I do all emails now. I think somehow emails are linked in her head to behaving better, or she just knows that saying something in an email is then saved for later… either way, she’s improved her communication style immeasurably. Is that an option for you?

    2. fposte*

      This sounds like something that goes bigger than just this interaction; is hypervigilance your thing generally? Can you find a way to calm yourself down, remind yourself of the information about that person you’ve already stated that makes this a thing about this person and not all people, and note that you’re in no physical danger? Because you can’t go out of your way to avoid interacting with people for long without it being a problem.

    3. Temperance*

      Not trying to diagnose you, but are you seeking help for this issue? It honestly sounds like it does impact your work, and your life, in a strongly negative way. That sounds really difficult to manage.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. Find ways that you ARE willing to invest in yourself.

        One idea is counseling which is probably the best way to get something tailored to suit your setting.

        Another idea is to read books about dealing with difficult people. We can’t help the crappy things that have happened to us in the past, crappy parents, crappy bosses etc. We can’t change what happened back then. But we can decide to take back our power, we can decide to learn new skills for dealing with old problems.

        For the immediate please consider this: To back away from everyone means you have decided that everyone is going to bite your head off. Do you honestly think this is fair to other people? I know myself, I do not want people judging me. And this is where I have to be careful, because if I decide people are going to hurt me, that is ME judging them. I am doing the very thing, I don’t want others to do to me. Not everyone is a rotten person. There’s a huge amount of nice people out there.

        And the sad fact is that backing away from everyone looks like a great idea initially, but for the long haul it can reeeally hurt you to be disconnected from people.

        Decide on one step you will take this week. This is hard, I know, but it’s just one step. Take that step and come back next Friday and let us know how it went.

  106. Office Mercenary*

    I’m a woman in a male-dominated field who is job hunting and trying to network as much as possible. Unfortunately, time and time again, I meet men in a professional capacity or at networking events and they attempt to hit on me or ask me out. If we discuss something related to our field, they think it’s a date. (It probably doesn’t help that I look about ten years younger than I actually am; what I would give to have resting bitch face.) These advances make me really uncomfortable and afterwards I just want to avoid these individuals, but that just means lost avenues of conversation or connections.

    For example, at a recent young professionals mixer I talked to a guy on the organizing committee who mentioned they were also planning a international delegation and asked if I would like to join. Later that evening, I sent a brief email to everyone I’d met at the event, along the lines of “It was good meeting you at [event]. Let’s keep in touch about [topic we had discussed.]” I emailed this man a brief note about the delegation and expressed interest in learning more about it. Instead of responding to the email, he waited until Friday night and texted my cell phone a single word: “Hi.” I didn’t respond, and he texted “Hi” again on Saturday night. Eventually he responded to the email and told me he’d like to introduce me to the delegation committee head over drinks that night. I tried to push for the meeting to be over coffee instead of at a bar; no response. Yesterday he texted me again: “Hi.” I’m trying to find contact info for the committee head so I can contact her directly, but in the meantime this creeper is a gatekeeper. The same week I met the first guy, someone I had just met borrowed my extra cell phone battery and walked off with it; after I tracked him down on Twitter to get it back, he offered to buy me coffee by way of apology. We had a pleasant conversation about our respective careers, during which I casually mentioned my girlfriend several times, and yet he still thought it appropriate to ask me on a date afterwards. (I’m of a generation that doesn’t use “girlfriend” to refer to platonic friends.)

    I’m so frustrated, and I really need a graceful way to turn men down without burning bridges or outing myself. Does anyone have advice on how to phrase it, particularly in cases like the first guy, who hasn’t explicitly asked me out? Or general advice about how to prevent these situations? I try to meet for coffee/lunch instead of drinks but many networking events have alcohol, so even if I don’t drink, the people around me are drinking. If I’m going to work in this field, I need to learn how to navigate male spaces without being this frustrated all the time.

    1. Office Plant*

      If people get weird, just avoid them. The “Hi” guy isn’t someone you want to be associated with. The person he could hypothetically introduce you to might also be creeped out by him and it could work against you. Look for the nice people and if you find any, stick to them. Do good work and let it speak for itself. Eventually, through doing good work, you’ll meet more people who are not creepy, and more doors will open. I know it’s really hard. Just keep going.

      1. fposte*

        I also hate the cravenness of “Hi.” It’s interrupting me while operating defensively. Either stick your neck out and ask me out or stick a sock in it.

      2. Office Mercenary*

        Unfortunately, there are so many weirdos in my line of work I can’t just avoid them all. In the case of the latter example above, I would have liked to keep in touch about this guy’s work, which is tangential to one of my areas of interest, but was grossed out that he would continue to hit on me despite knowing that I’m gay. This happens a lot and I can’t keep running away from uncomfortable conversations. I’m trying to think of ways to say, “I’d like this relationship strictly professional,” and move on to the topic at hand without letting them get bogged down in an argument. I’ve heard so many variations of “But why won’t you give me a chance,” “How dare you think I was hitting on you, now you’re stuck up AND conceited,” “But you don’t look gay,” “But I thought you were referring to a platonic female friend, even though no female in the northeast under the age of 50 does that anymore,” etc. I’d like to find the words to say, “Thanks, but no thanks,” whenever possible.

        1. Office Plant*

          I’m struggling with the same thing. Most of the things I enjoy doing, both at work and outside of work, are more popular among men. I look female, but I act kind of masculine, have a more masculine sense of humor, and so on. A lot of people don’t get it. And I deal with everything you described.

          I know this isn’t always an option, but I find that bringing things up with people directly can be helpful. Sometimes people mean well but are seriously misguided or they misunderstand you or they’re not fully aware of their behavior. Depending on the person and situation, I either make a joke about it or make it a brief but serious conversation. It can be awkward to point out that someone’s hitting on you. Often, they’ll deny it, either because they’re embarassed or they don’t want to take responsibility for it. So sometimes it helps to put it a different way. “All those texts saying hi – what was up with that? Were you drunk and couldn’t type the rest of the message?” You get the idea.

    2. Panda Bandit*

      It’s not the greatest solution, but what do you think about wearing a fake wedding ring?

      1. Office Mercenary*

        I’ve considered it. I had one when I was traveling before and I’m not sure if it made a difference. Nowadays that ruse would only work when I initially meet people but at least that could buy me some time.

    3. Not a dog AFAYK*

      The unfortunate fact is, there is nothing you as an individual can do to avoid all the frustration that comes from dealing with these dudes, or avoid all related impacts on your career. Sexism doesn’t come with an “opt-out” :/

      Some men just have icky ideas of entitlement towards women, like your “Hi” guy. There is no way to manage him into a normal professional relationship with you. If you are willing to have the argument multiple times, he may eventually give it up and act friendly to you (but still think privately that you should be ‘giving him a chance’). Thus you can ostensibly preserve a network connection.

      Just want to add that it is NOT your fault that you’re ending up frustrated. These men are out of line and they are leaving you no good options. It sucks, and this is why so many women eventually decide to just change fields.

  107. Em*

    Any advice on how to cope with a job that bleeds the life out of you? I’m trying to hold on at my job until we are done with a last project and then I leave for another job that doesn’t start til then, but I’m struggling daily with the urge to just up and quit. What can I do to power through? I wish I could hypnotize the job stress out of my life like Peter from “Office Space.”

    1. EddieSherbert*

      At previous ToxicJob I really focused on doing a good job, but not investing my soul into it. So if GrandBoss had a dumb idea she insisted on rolling out, I just went with it. No arguing, no getting worked up, just go with the flow and keep my head down.

      Personal life became bigger; I pursued some volunteer opportunities that really made me happy and feel worthwhile.

      During breaks and my lunch I always got out of the building – even if it was just a walk, or sitting on my car with music for 10 minutes, or walking randomly around a store (if there was gross weather).

      And I was able to move my schedule up to 6:30AM – 3:30PM… The first like 3 hours of work I was still half-asleep and could just do work pretty mindlessly. And I felt like I had SO much time for me after work since I got out so early!

      Hopefully some of that is useful :)
      At least you know the end is in sight for this job!!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I went down to basic self-care. Good foods, proper hydration and plenty of rest. If you have any available time leftover after all that, then going for a walk is good.

      My point is I decided I was going down to survival mode with the goal of getting through what I needed to get through. I really felt like I had no choice so the question of “is this doable?” was not on the table for me. However, I decided that for a while life was going to be much, much simpler for me, then later on I would weave back into my life the other things I wanted.

  108. Root*

    Interviewed yesterday morning, and the manager seemed to like me, although he talked more than I did and I kept looking at his shoelaces. He said he’d get back to me by the end of the day (hiring happens quickly in my industry). He did not. He mentioned that he was really busy, so maybe he just didn’t have time? But he also asked if I could start training on Tuesday. I wish people would just communicate–if you don’t want to hire someone, tell them.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Alison always says forget the interview and go back to looking for a job. We don’t have a job until we actually land a job. Maybe you can distract yourself by looking at other ads?

      I wish you the best on this interview.

  109. Joshua*

    I recently applied for a part time position. They have a rolling application process, they are always accepting applications and reach out to qualified candidates when positions are available.

    A few weeks ago I was notified that I passed the first screening phase and they asked me to submit a more thorough questionnaire as the second round. They said that they would review my responses and would contact me in the coming weeks or months if a position opens.

    They told me it would be awhile since their process is rolling like this. However, would it still be OK for me to follow-up? I’d love to know if my second round questionnaire was suitable and if I should expect a call in the coming weeks or months or if I was eliminated after the questionnaire.

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      It’s actually never appropriate to follow up if you submitted application materials. Sorry! Waiting sucks, but don’t bug them.

  110. Jessen*

    I’m looking to be changing mental health medications. The trouble is my reactions are completely unpredictable – a given med might work, or it might make me a crying mess, or it might make me extremely irritable. I’m not eligible for FMLA and even if I was I don’t think it would necessarily be long enough for how drawn-out the medication process can be. I feel like I should address this with my boss just to give her a heads up, but I’m not really sure how to say “Hey I might end up having inappropriate reactions at work” without sounding like I’m just going to be causing problems. It’s not really an ideal situation to have to work through this but I don’t really see another option.

    1. Manders*

      Oof, I’ve been putting off a similar medication change because I’m worried about the emotional side effects. Best of luck to you!

      Do you have a private office or even just a back room you can step into when you need to? I’ve found that being able to walk away from a situation when I feel myself getting worked up helps me avoid a public meltdown. Then you can just tell your boss ahead of time that you might have to take breaks while you deal with the possible side effects of your new medication, without listing everything that could possibly happen in a worst case scenario.

      1. Jessen*

        I’m in a situation where taking time away from your desk is a really big deal – you aren’t supposed to do that without making sure someone else is covering for you. And if you take too much time away you get dinged.

    2. Root*

      You might want to look into taking PTO/sick time, just a couple of days for when it’s really bad. Talk to your boss and say, if you think they’ll be receptive, that you’re working on managing a health condition, and that sometimes you have bad reactions to it and would like to work out a system for taking time off if the reactions are especially bad.

      Fun story: when I went on carbamazepine, it completely shot my balance and hand-eye coordination. It also made me really tired and my tongue swelled up so that I slurred when I talked. To the untrained observer, I probably looked drunk. On the bright side, after the side effects passed I felt pretty good for a couple days.

      1. Jessen*

        I’ll take sick time if I need it, but the adjustment time on these sort of medications is measured in terms of weeks, not days.

    3. Coalea*

      I can see handling this in a couple of different ways.

      First, you could go with something like, “Hey, my doctor is making some adjustments to a medication that I take. It may not happen, but there is a possibility that the new medication (or new dose or whatever) will cause some emotional reactions, so I wanted to give you a heads-up about it.” If the reactions are likely to be short-term, I would also say that.

      On the other hand, you could also wait and see what reaction – if any – you have. If you react badly, you could say something like, “I wanted to let you know that I’m aware that I’ve been emotional (or irritable or whatever the case may be) lately. It’s likely due to an adjustment that my doctor made in a medication that I take.” I would then let your boss know how you/your doctor are addressing this and how long it can be expected to last.

      Best of luck!

    4. Anonymous for this*

      Taking some PTO is reasonable. If you feel you can’t and do go to work, you can certainly leave work if you feel like you might turn into a crying mess or have some other side effect.

      Many years ago I was prescribed an antidepressant and shortly afterwards I came down with a cold (runny nose and sore throat). After a week or so, my psychologist determined that the symptoms were side effects from the drug, which was changed to one with different, but more manageable, side effects.

      1. Jessen*

        Our company is not generous with PTO. Put simply, I probably won’t have the time off to take if I end up turning into a crying mess – especially since the procedure for these meds is usually “wait 2-3 weeks to see if the side effect wears off.”

  111. Mary Ann*

    How are cover letters handled with online applications, when you are just uploading your resume? I haven’t applied for a job in over 15 years, and I’m trying to help someone else figure out how to get her cover letter to be included when applying online. Thank you!

    1. DevAssist*

      I typically would make sure the PDF of my resume included my cover letter so that I could easily upload both as a single file!

    2. ThatGirl*

      What DevAssist said, although I have also found that many systems allow multiple attachments/uploads.

  112. Depressed Anon*

    (Praying that my boss still sticks to Alison’s posts and doesn’t read the comments here.)

    Please be gentle. I’m writing this through a vulnerability hangover.

    Yesterday my boss talked to me about a behavior change he noticed the last few months. Specifically, I seemed unhappy to see him anytime he came by to talk. My experience watching him deal with other problems is that he takes too long to let them fester so that they’re a Big Deal by the time he finally does something about them. So, thinking this was now A Thing, I panicked and confessed that I’ve been dealing with a major depressive episode. He was very sympathetic, thanked me for telling him, and said he’d come to me sooner if he noticed it again. Which, I mean great for going forward, but I spent months thinking I had my shit on lock at the office only to find out he’s been counting this against me all this time (I mean, not totally; he framed it as concern for me and worried he’d done something to upset me, but again, he doesn’t usually address issues until they’re a serious problem.)

    So now I’ve got this vulnerability hangover because I didn’t exactly want to talk about my depression with my boss. I would much rather have kept it private and just addressed the concerning behavior when it could be written off as a blip on his radar and not have to give the mental health context for it.

    This also would have been more helpful because he was doing things that were basically contributing to the depression spiral. For example, with yesterday’s big reveal, he offered that helping with my workload would be a reasonable accommodation when I’m struggling. But the thing is, every time I asked him for help during that period, he either flaked or deflected. And I get that it was a busy period for him too, but he once responded to “I have too much that needs to get done today. There will be consequences if they don’t all get done,” with “Yeah, I’m really busy too. My wife is starting to get on me for not spending enough time at home.” Like, great, now if I ask for help and it means he works late, I get to feel guilty for encroaching on his family time. But I pushed and got him to agree to take something off my plate, and he didn’t even do it! So then I had to deal with not only the thing but the consequences of the thing not getting done on time. So stress from massive workload, guilt for complaining because maybe he was also too busy to help(??), and shame because he’s simultaneously going on about how valuable I am and how capable and he’s sure it’ll all get done because I’m super, but I’m not! I have limitations, for goodness’ sake, and I don’t think I should have to spell out my mental health issues to justify them!

    PS, part of the reason my workload was so high at that point was because I’d been covering for him when he was busy earlier in the year.

    So, all that to say, I can’t unring the depression bell, but I am still really frustrated that I had to ring it at all. And it now feels like I can’t bring up the workload and other issues without making it seem like he caused the depressive episode (or future episodes of it happens again). I mean, he definitely exacerbated it, but getting into cause has always been an exercise in chicken vs. egg. But also, knowing him, I worry that in the future he won’t give me useful feedback because he’ll either a) attribute issues to the depression even if I’m feeling well, b) worry that any criticism will trigger another episode, or c) let it sit for way too long because that’s what he always seems to do. And I also worry that I’m misreading everything, and he’s been totally reasonable the whole time and it’s just my Jerk Brain that’s making him look bad.

    I’m not sure what I’m hoping for here, but I really needed to get that all out.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, sounds like an unpleasant feeling, and I know the vulnerability hangover well. I also think it’s pretty common for illness to affect work more than we realize when we’re in the middle of it, but it’s an unpleasant shock to find that out.

      But I also think you’re conflating two things that might be different: a boss who expects you to do too much work, and a boss who won’t change a workload for a person who’s asked for accommodation. For most managers, a need for accommodation is a whole nother thing. I also think most people aren’t likely to think they personally caused somebody else’s depression, so I wouldn’t worry about that. As far as the feedback goes, can you try to initiate check-ins so that it doesn’t only happen on his schedule?

      I mean, overall I can’t swear to you that your boss isn’t a jackass, but it seems to me that you’ve been struggling and your boss has more information about why and might help mitigate that, and that’s usually a good thing.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I could be misunderstanding, but it sounds like you have a boss who does not support you on an ordinary day. Now there’s the additional layer of talking about your depression on top of the work issues. If he does not support you ordinarily, then how can he support you during something extra? This question makes sense to me.

      I can tell you this. Nothing like a boss or a parent with NO follow up to make us feel straight-jacketed, like we can’t move, we are stuck, things won’t change. Most people would find this upsetting.

      Recognizing that you probably cannot change your boss, try to think about what you CAN change. And that change can be anything, whatever makes sense to you. When I feel like I am up to my shoulders in quick sand, I try to think of changes that would have meaningful impact on my setting. I am not sure what this would mean for you. I am a big fan of mentioning self-care. Maybe there are some self care things that would appeal to you. Keep it simple so that you actually do it.

      Start with some self-care as your foundation. Then start looking around what else, with in reason, would you like to change. Again, keep it simple, keep it doable. Going inch by inch make little tweaks to your personal life and your work life.

  113. DevAssist*

    I attended a small leadership seminar this week, and we talked about leadership, specifically that the most effective leaders hold tightly to their values but delegate appropriately. We talked about how if a leader refuses to give authority, there won’t be any growth. It was super inspiring. I also wish my boss (a chronic micro-manager) could have attended!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      A huge topic, that must have been a good seminar. I have found it helpful to think of micromanagers as being loaded up with fears. Their fears do not allow them to delegate.

      Once on to the fear aspect of the story, sometimes I can say consoling things to the boss. Once the boss is consoled somewhat, I can get some type of forward motions. Sometimes.

  114. HAIRCUTS*

    AKA costume teapots

    I wear a pixie cut. Am currently in between cuts but my hair is growing pretty long because I don’t want to cut it until right before a Long Vacation. Should I get it shaped/kept longer for job interviews, or will people Not Actually Care about my haircut?

    1. Root*

      As long as it looks neat and put-together, I wouldn’t worry. If someone decides whether or not to hire you based upon your haircut, you probably don’t want to work for them anyway.

    2. Let's Sidebar*

      As long as your hair can be styled in a way that looks professional and polished, nobody interviewing you should notice anything about it one way or the other. Have fun on Long Vacation!

    3. Amber Rose*

      I think unless you do something pretty ridiculous like shape your hair into a mohawk and dye it green and purple, people will Not Actually Care. With the caveat that people will probably judge if you don’t wash or brush your hair. ;)

    4. Manders*

      As long as it’s neatly kept, it’s fine. Maybe stock up on stronger gel or hairspray than you normally use if you have thick hair and it’s getting in your eyes.

      If you’re brave enough to cut your own hair, there’s this awesome tool I use to keep my pixie cut in shape as it grows. It’s sort of like a comb with a razor embedded in it, so you can just pull it through your hair a few times and thin it out. I’ll put a link in the comments.

    5. Emi.*

      I interviewed for my current job with a pixie, and it was fine. If you let it grow without full-on reshaping it, I recommend getting it trimmed in the back so it’s not mullet-y. But if it’s not outlandish, I doubt anyone will care.

      1. costume teapot*

        Yeah I’m in full-on mullet territory right now. At least at work I use a hairclip on my bangs and the back has been tucking itself neatly down into my shirt for the moment, but that feels…unkempt for an interview.

        1. Emi.*

          Yeah, I would get that trimmed. It doesn’t have to be fancy–I had my mother do mine. But a full cut may not be necessary.

    6. Murphy*

      I also have a pixie cut I’d probably get it touched up prior to an interview (in the back, around the ears, etc.) Some stylists will actually do it for free. I don’t think it’s the end of the world if you don’t though. Mine just can get unruly and harder to style if I go too long without a cut, and it would make me feel self-conscious.

      1. Rat in the Sugar*

        Yeah, I’ve grown out a lot of pixies and keeping the neck trimmed to prevent yourself from growing a mullet makes a huge difference in keeping you neat even if you don’t touch the rest.

        1. costume teapot*

          Yeah it has been probably…since October I think since I got it cut. So it has been quite some time.

          I think on my next cut, I’m going to have Boof start trimming the back for me every other week. I can’t afford haircuts every 6 weeks!

          1. Natalie*

            If your stylist lists a “bang trim” or similar as one of their services, they may be willing to do the back for that amount rather than a full haircut. I have an undercut that I get touched up about once a month, and I just pay the bangs rate.

    7. periwinkle*

      If they care that deeply about your haircut rather than your qualification, would you want to work there?

      We’re a big company. We have women with pixie cuts. Some are in high-level positions. It’s fine.

  115. Gaia*

    I received a hand written thank you note from my Great Grand Boss yesterday for my work on a really stressful, really difficult and really important project. I know it probably isn’t that big and she likely did it for everyone on the project, but I am seriously keeping it. It meant so much that she took the time to hand write a thank you note and mail it overseas.

    3. babblemouth*

      I’d be feeling pretty amazing about it too! That is a very thoughtful thing to do – no one would have noticed if she hadn’t done it, but you will remember for very long time that she did.
      Congrats!

      1. Gaia*

        That is exactly it – literally NO ONE would have noticed a Senior Vice President not taking the time to hand write a thank you note to a mid level manager. But I will always remember that she did and it makes me want to write a thank you note to my direct report who has been working so hard on a big project of her own.

  116. Let's Sidebar*

    I am currently hiring to replace an essential role for my small team. The sooner we find a good fit the better, as the department is becoming overloaded due to the vacancy. Myself and two key members who would work closely with the position had an interview a few days ago with somebody we all immediately loved. She was an A+, exactly what we are looking for. I want to invite her back next week for a final interview and, if all goes well, begin discussions of an offer….however, she has not emailed a thank you/follow-up note since the interview as of yet. Polish, presentation, and follow-up are key for client and vendor relationships in this role. Should I reconsider making an offer based on this oversight? She appears to be a perfect fit in every other way and she COULD be sending the correspondence via snail mail, but it’s making me second guess something I would otherwise be 100% sure of. Thoughts?

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      Confused British person here. Over here this is just not a thing. Is it absolutely a universal norm over there?

      If so, try to remember there are many reasons why she might not have sent to it. Judge on what you know and have observed, not on assumptions or you might miss out on someone who you sound pretty sold on.

      1. Let's Sidebar*

        In the US it is very common, nearly an unspoken requirement. It carries a bit more weight in my field in particular, because service and follow-up are key to the relationship building a successful person in the role would have. My gut is to still make the offer, but I have seen AAM express regret after ignoring red flags during interviewing which led to a less than ideal hire…I would say this is more of a soft pink flag but also know that my urgency to fill the position may be coloring my judgment.

        1. Lemon Zinger*

          It is NOT an unspoken requirement in the US! Field specific of course, but I think many people err on the side of caution, and prefer to let companies handle hiring with little interference from the candidate (which would include follow-up/thank-you notes).

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I don’t think it’s a red flag at all! Not everyone does thank-you notes after an interview. If you otherwise think she’s great, I wouldn’t let this throw you.

        3. tigerStripes*

          I’m in the US, and I didn’t know how important this was until I started reading this site. I don’t think no thank you letter is a big deal.

    2. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      Yeah, I usually send thank-you notes after an interview, but not everyone does. And in fact, I didn’t send one after the interview for the job I currently hold! My week just got terribly busy that week and I felt awful I didn’t get around to it, but I’m sure as heck glad my now-boss didn’t hold it against me in the hiring decision.

    3. Sibley*

      I have a talent for not getting the person’s email address. Don’t ask me how, I have no clue.

      You think she’d be a good fit? Do another interview, and specifically dig into the polish, presentation and follow-up aspects if you’re worried.

      1. Let's Sidebar*

        We have corresponded via email previously, so access is not the issue. Everyone she interviewed with agrees she really is a great fit, I just wish I didn’t have any reason for doubt! She was SO polished in every other way- beautifully designed and professional resume, well spoken during the phone interview, great in person presentation- a thank you/follow-up is just so basic and takes so little effort that it is throwing me.

        1. Ann O.*

          I’ve never done one. It’s not something I’ve ever learned how to do and so far hasn’t seemed to hold me back. I’ve always thought they were an extra but not required (although I’ll try and figure them out the next time I’m job hunting!) I think you may think they’re more basic than many of us are trained to think of them.

          If you’re concerned about what this may signal for her follow-up with clients, I would address that in the final interview.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I have had emails get lost on me so many times. I know I have sent the email and yet the person never received it.

          I think you should consider the possibility that you guys missed something in the interview. I am saying this because I am wondering if the thank you email is part of something else that did not resonate with you and you forgot about this other thing.

    4. Joshua*

      If she seems amazing in every other way, invite her back for another interview and in that interview ask her about how she follows up with clients and vendors. Second interviews are used to suss out answers to questions you got from the first interview and hopefully her answer will calm your fears.

    5. Anonymous for this*

      I try to do this, but I can’t always get everyone’s email address. Sometimes I’ll have a group interview and in the nervousness of the moment, I won’t be able to remember everyone’s name. I usually ask for the interviewer’s business card, but a surprising number of people I interview with say they don’t have them. (Maybe I’m just a really bad interview.)

  117. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    I was just forwarded an email I wasn’t supposed to see about a colleague’s bonus…
    My boss’s boss just forwarded me an email trail with instructions that I and a colleague are to work in a new workgroup. This colleague is senior to me (reports to boss’s boss), but the two of us have been working lots of overtime in recent months on a project we are doing together at the request of boss’s boss. When you scroll down the forwarded email it traces back to an exchange between Colleague and Boss’s Boss about Colleague’s $30K bonus for this year.

    $30K is more than a third of my salary. I do not receive a bonus at all. Colleague’s base salary, based on her level, is already $50-60K higher than mine.

    I know that Colleague has earned this, but I can’t help but feel a little deflated, especially since the two of us have been working so closely together on this major project, on nights and weekends, 60+ hours a week some weeks (in a job that normally doesn’t exceed 40 on my end). Colleague knows I saw the email (she brought it up) and has said “I hope they really appreciate your work on this as well” in response to my cheery “Congratulations!” But management hasn’t really acknowledged my extra work on this project, which has essentially doubled my workload.

    Any advice for keeping my morale up and my nose to the grindstone?

    1. Temperance*

      Have you said anything to your boss about this? I mean, $30k is a significant amount of money. It’s not your fault that you have the information, and it sounds like your colleague is in y our corner.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        I haven’t brought it up to my boss because Colleague has asked me not to mention it to anyone, which I get because I wouldn’t want people gossiping about my compensation either. Colleague was quite embarrassed when she asked me if I saw the email trail. She actually asked me about it because there were other colleagues at her level who were on the forwarded email that were not getting this bonus, and she was a bit mortified to find out they could see it. Those on the forwarded email did not include my boss, so I don’t think it’s appropriate for me to mention it to her.

        I have asked for additional help in the form of a temp so I can have a little breathing room with workload, but I’ve been told it’s not in the budget.

        1. Temperance*

          I actually disagree with you on that point, since apparently several people have seen it. It’s not “gossip”, it’s asking for compensation that you are due. I mean, her bonus is pretty extravagant, and you aren’t getting a penny. That’s not okay.

          You don’t have to mention the amount to your boss unless she asks, but I would ask for a pay raise and/or a bonus in your shoes. You now know that the org gives out amounts in bonus that are some people’s salary.

          1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

            Yeah, but it’s not really “compensation I am due”–I’m sure my colleague earned the bonus not based solely on the project we are doing together, but also her other contributions. And honestly, I doubt my boss knows about bonuses of this size being handed out, otherwise she may have fought harder for me to get a temp or an intern or something to help out with some of my simpler tasks. Or at least I hope she would have. I actually worry that mentioning it might hurt me by making me seem like I’m overly entitled or something.

            But I can’t deny I feel a bit resentful to be brushed off when I’m drowning in work and still doing a great job, and then not really acknowledged beyond a “good job” on project. I mean, I don’t expect a massive bonus, but *something* would be nice. My plan is to at least ask about raises in my next 1:1 with my boss. It’s COLA time but I haven’t heard anything about a raise, other than that they’ve already been issued. (Meaning it might be too late for me.)

            1. BRR*

              I think you need to ignore you’re colleague unless they’ll be giving you a bonus. You shouldn’t mention their’s but you can certainly ask for your own.

            2. Ann O.*

              I can’t promise you that it wouldn’t make you seem overly entitled because I don’t know your boss or your workplace or your job. But you now know that your company is willing to give people they value high bonuses. You’ve been working hard. So make your case. Be prepared with amount of hours you’ve worked and specific contributions that you’ve made. It’s not entitlement if you can support your ask.

  118. BookCocoon*

    I posted a few weeks ago about whether I should go to HR or our director’s supervisor with my concerns. The decision was made for me — a colleague went to HR with a specific gender-discrimination complaint, and a bunch of us were asked individually to come talk with the head of HR about our director. I heard she was looking for specific examples, so I sat down and wrote nine pages of my negative experiences with our director. She was super grateful and said she was going to share them with our director’s supervisor and encourage him to do a “climate survey” where he talks to every member of the department, since so many people are too scared of retaliation to voice complaints individually. The specific complaint was about gender discrimination in hiring, but she said from talking to people there are three separate areas of concern: hiring practices in general, differential treatment of men and women by our director, and then general performance concerns about our director. I’m really hoping that things will get better from here!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      This sounds really good. I like to see companies stepping up the way they are supposed to.

  119. Elkay*

    Often on here advice is given to write notes to people to thank them for their work, I wanted to flag up that it doesn’t have to be a big gesture. While clearing out my desk I came across a post it note with a scribbled message from my boss which they’d left on my desk when I wasn’t in (not in secret I happened to not be there when they came by). It’s a silly jokey note but the message underneath was clear so I kept it. They say thanks vocally all the time but it is nice to have a written reminder occasionally.

  120. burnt toast*

    I feel like I’m drowning at work. I’m doing 2 3/4 time jobs as a 40/week position, often working late or on weekends (entertainment biz). I can’t keep up, this are falling through the cracks, my train of thought is so far off the track, I’m sucking down coffee & Xanax at a ridiculous rate.
    When I’ve said I’m overwhelmed or I need a break I just get told that “we’re all busy” and to just deal with it.
    I go home & have meltdowns, and the random meltdown at work too.

    I need to leave the office for a few hours to do work-related stuff at the venue but boss doesn’t want me to leave the building.
    I needed to take time off for an MRI (cancer followup) and boss gave me a hard time about missing hours that week (despite being out for 3 hours for the MRI I put in 50+ hours that week).
    I will have worked everyday (including during the blizzard) from March 13 – April 7 without a break after having worked three 50+ hour weeks Feb 10 – March 10 (we don’t get comp time as such because we get the week off at Christmas). And I sepnt 2+ hours in the car commuting every day.
    Everyone else on the staff has gotten a thank you/nice job/compliments for their hard work & efforts lately; I got crap. Blamed for problems that were not my responsibility or anything I had control over.

    Burnt out, racking up debt and no time/energy for a second job, feeling like a major failure. My personal relationships are in peril, my physical/financial/mental health can’t keep up with this crap.

    How do I get over it, get my tuckus is gear & find a new job while keeping up this pace?

    1. fposte*

      That sounds absolutely horrible; I’m sorry.

      Is there any way you can let one of them go, or at least take it down to 50% or lower (and make that a real change in hours and not just in pay)? Because I think it’s really hard to find an escape plan when you’re that stressed. Unfortunately, that level of stress also makes any kind of change really daunting. What would happen if you took two weeks off, even unpaid, from both?

      1. burnt toast*

        it’s 2 PT jobs that were combined into 1 FT so they could hire me so it’s not as though I can give anything up. The place has been having massive turnover (small office, ~ 10 people; when I came in 6 of us had been hired within the past 4 months, in the past year, 3 people have left & 4 new people have come in).

        Pretty sure that if I asked for time off, even unpaid, it would be denied as we have firm deadlines (performances must be done at published times & orders have to go in the mail by X date.
        Afraid to call in sick becasue I’d be docked a sick day & then have to stay late/come in an extra day in order to get the work done anyway :)

        1. fposte*

          Is insurance a factor? Because ordinarily I’d say get out, you’re losing money anyway and might as well not be miserable at the same time, but if you must have work insurance this is a whole other situation.

          I also think that if your job is given the choice of allowing you two weeks off or having to replace you, they might choose the former, so consider that possibility as well.

  121. A Nonnie Miss*

    I’m dealing with a very odd situation at work. My boss has never been very good about respecting boundaries, and has increasingly been assigning me to assist him with personal matters that don’t have much to do with work, but that might be within the realm of what an admin might do in some organizations (things like planning birthday parties for his family members, arranging personal travel, etc.). Our organization discourages managers from using admins for personal work, however, except occasionally and when tangentially related to work (i.e., it’s fine to ask an admin to pick up lunch for you on an extremely busy day when you otherwise wouldn’t get to eat, or to take care of an occasional errand that would otherwise disrupt the manager’s work day).

    My job is mostly in the marketing/communications realm (mid-level professional) and I am not an assistant/admin in any sense. As an odd loophole in our organization’s policies, however, while it isn’t okay to ask admins to do personal work in most cases, it is fine for managers to assign personal tasks to exempt professionals. The idea is that exempt personnel work as many hours as required to do the job and are expected to do any (legal) tasks assigned by their managers, which may include both their core jobs and other miscellaneous duties.

    I checked with HR to see if it is really appropriate for me to be doing personal tasks for my boss that have nothing to do with the job I thought I was hired to do. (I didn’t frame as a complaint – more like, “The duties of my job seem to be growing into areas very different from what I was hired to do, including a lot of personal matters for Fergus that are greatly extending my working hours – I just wanted to get a sense of whether this is typical for Teapots, Inc.?” HR advised that the assignments were a bit “nonstandard,” but reiterated that I am exempt and need to work whatever hours my boss requires, including on personal tasks, and that as long as the assignments aren’t illegal or unethical they aren’t going to get involved.

    (I have a sense I may get some criticism here, so I want to clarify that I am not objecting to doing any and all personal work. If my boss is swamped and asks if I can grab him a sandwich so he doesn’t have to go all day without eating, I am absolutely happy to do so. However, I don’t think I should have to give up half of my weekend to, say, plan/organize his brother’s birthday party, when it wasn’t made clear at the outset that such duties would be a part of the job and that I would be required to attend to them outside of regular business hours.)

    The latest issue is that my boss told me he is starting a new diet and I am now the “food police” – I am supposed to watch what he is eating at the office and stop him from eating anything not on his diet. The other day we had a group meeting with lunch served, including dessert. I stepped away to the restroom for a few minutes at the end of the meeting, and when I returned he got angry with me because he had snuck a brownie while I was away and I hadn’t been there to stop him. Beacause I have my own food issues I am working on, I do not want to talk about weights/diet at work, and really, really do not want to be anyone’s food police. Again, both my boss and HR told me that if this is assigned to me it is not negotiable.

    So, unfortunately, it seems I need to look for another job? It is just a shame because I absolutely love the work involved in my core duties, but I don’t see any way to work this out if I’ve been told the personal task issue is not up for discussion. Help?

    1. Emi.*

      Wait, what? Your boss is nuts.

      Could you ask him how you should prioritize this versus the other things? You can’t be a very good food police officer if you also have to, y’know, attend meetings and file TPS reports and plan birthday parties. Hopefully he will realize how loco this is, but I’m not hopeful.

      Otherwise, while job searching, could you try to negotiate a higher salary in light of your expanded duties? That might help make up for it a bit.

      1. A Nonnie Miss*

        Yes, I actually tried that! His response was that I am exempt and need to get everything done, so if I need to work nights/weekends to get the core and personal tasks done then so be it.

        I did state that my working hours are now much longer than originally contemplated for the role, and that this was becoming challenging for me personally. Again, the response was that I am exempt and that essentially that means I belong to the company (HR agreed) and that they are doing me a favor by letting me have any personal/downtime for myself, and if I fail to complete any assigned duties it is basically akin to stealing from the company, because I am continuing to collect my salary without doing my full job. Then I was told I am already overpaid and that I should be grateful.

    2. PollyQ*

      Your boss sounds like an absolute NIGHTMARE (blaming YOU because HE snuck a brwonie?!!) and HR is little better. Enjoy the low unemployment rate, and find yourself a better job.

      1. A Nonnie Miss*

        I told him that I wasn’t a medical professional or dietitian, and thus wasn’t sure I had the right qualifications for this responsibility, and because I couldn’t watch him 24/7 it would be very hard for me to tell if something was actually on or off the diet. I did tell him that when planning meetings or arranging (work-related) events at restaurants I would be happy to ensure we had some healthy options included that (to be best of my knowledge) fit his diet, but that I really wasn’t comfortable with monitoring and approving or judging everything he was eating throughout the day.

        1. animaniactoo*

          I agree with fposte that yeah, running is your only option.

          But in the meantime, I think that you need to push back harder and say things to the effect of “I am having my own food issues and this would be very unhealthy for me to do and I don’t want to be part of this. I hope that you can understand that and I wish you all the success in the world, I just can’t be part of it.”

          Also… I do wonder what would happen if you went to his boss or somebody other than HR about this. Because HR isn’t the last stop. His supervisor might be really annoyed that he’s trying to task you with these things as they’re not remotely relevant to company stuff.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            Yeah, if he has a boss, maybe go there? This is insanity. Like, Airport Boss level insanity. It’s absolutely not reasonable for him to make these requests.

          2. A Nonnie Miss*

            I wish that were an option, but I don’t think it would go well for me. It was actually Grandboss who suggested that Boss use me for management of (more of) his personal matters as well!

            Yes, the more I think about it the more I realize how dysfunctional this all is. I appreciate everyone’s support here today – it’s such a helpful sanity check!

            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              This is dysfunctional the same way a hydrogen bomb is a public health risk – like, that’s a word for it, but it’s so incomplete.

            2. Emi.*

              So, Grandboss is having you babysit Boss because he doesn’t feel like managing him.

              Sanity check: You are the only sane person in the situation.

              1. A Nonnie Miss*

                Ah! I actually hadn’t considered that but think you must be right! I know Boss had complained to Grandboss about our admins not being able to help with most personal matters anymore due to policy changes. Boss can be quite demanding (including to people above him) when he doesn’t get something he wants, so Grandboss outsourced appeasing Boss on all things to me so Boss would stop complaining. Makes perfect sense!

            3. animaniactoo*

              o… m… g…

              DTMFA. Fast and hard as you can. This is insane. You are not an admin and they are ridiculously trying to take advantage of the fact that you’re an exempt employee and therefore it theoretically doesn’t “cost” them any more. That is some serious abuse of a professional relationship.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                Yep. This is abusive.

                OP, you are in a job where you have been set up to fail. There is no pleasing these people, no matter how hard you try.

                I hope you find something new very quickly.

    4. Rat in the Sugar*

      Wait, so he specifically waited until you were gone to eat a brownie and then got mad at you because he did?

      …I have no words but you have all my sympathy. Your boss is cray and it sounds like you do need a new job.

    5. fposte*

      Wow, this is a standalone post-worthy level of bonkers.

      The short version is I think you’re right that you’re going to have to leave if you ever want to go to the bathroom without being yelled at. But is this a nonprofit? I’m really appalled at HR saying this is okay, if so; donors aren’t giving money for you to plan the boss’s brother’s birthday party. I would consider going back to them with that and the being yelled at for going to the bathroom thing and note your concern about the off-mission use of resources.

      1. A Nonnie Miss*

        No, sorry – it’s a for-profit company, I just said “organization” to be as vague as possible about the specific industry/type of work. So, no mission or donors. I did speak to HR about the brownie/bathroom thing and they said they agreed it wasn’t reasonable for me to watch my boss personally every moment, but that it should have been my responsibility to work out how to handle the times when I’m not watching him and that I at least should have reminded him about his diet before I went to the bathroom. (And actually, I would have if it had been just the two of us, but he was involved in a conversation with someone senior to me and I didn’t want to interrupt or draw attention to his diet, which I thought might embarrass him.)

        2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          No, he’s insane and so is HR. Does he have a boss you can go to?

        3. babblemouth*

          He’s crazy, HR is clearly useless, run as soon as you can. In the meantime, you can sustain yourself through this insanity by telling yourself this is actually a film, and you are acting in it. pretned this isn’t actually real, so it doesn’t impact your sense of reality.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            Yes, this is a wacky sitcom, you are the protagonist, and cue laugh track.

            1. fposte*

              I’ve been enjoying working out dialogue for that. As somebody who could afford to quit or be fired, I find it very satisfying to tell the boss that he’s a grown-ass man and his belief that somebody else should hand-hold his eating is embarrassing to our whole species.

    6. Student*

      Tell HR much more specifically what you are being asked to do. Spell out why you are concerned about this – it’s taking away time from the duties you were hired to do, wasting company money, hurting your morale, impacting your career growth, unprofessional, making you consider quitting, etc. If he has you working far more than 40 hours, keep in mind that you still have to make more than minimum wage on an hourly basis to be considered exempt.

      Also, consider just telling him no. Call his bluff here. See if he’s willing to fire you over not arranging his brother’s birthday party or policing his brownie consumption. Firing someone is often hard, as is hiring a replacement. He’ll probably pout and threaten you as an extinguish event, but I bet he stops asking if you stop agreeing to do this.

      Talk to a lawyer as well – I deeply doubt he’d ask a guy to do this kind of work. It’s a bizarre sex discrimination, but it’s pretty gendered. You can probably generate documentation on this by telling him you aren’t available but suggesting he ask a male colleague at a similar job level to you to do this nonsense instead.

      And, if you do nothing else, go over his head. Tell his boss you’re a professional X, and your boss is paying you $Y per hour to arrange birthday parties for his family out of company coffers and not accepting your push-back. Make sure to put it in terms of dollars, estimate how much the boss has spent on retaining you for personal crap this business quarter or month or whatever.

    7. Observer*

      I know we try not to jump to legalities here, but this one actually may have a pair of legal issues attached.

      1. Does your food issue potentially rise to the level of an ADA disability? Because if it does, then it’s a perfectly reasonable accommodation to not require you to be the “food police” since this type of thing is absolutely not a core part of your job.

      2. How much of your job is being taken up by all of these personal items? Because no matter what your official title is, if you are being expected to spend more time on these other duties, it may actually change the legal classification of your job.

      Beyond that, if you are being expect to spend huge amounts of time doing truly personal tasks for your boss, I’d suggest that you start documenting your head off. Then, go up the chain – not HR, but your boss’s boss, etc. HR is only interested in the apparent legal issues but apparently isn’t considering that this is poor management. But, your boss’s boss may recognize that if you are being expected to spend large amounts on truly personal, unrelated issues, then it IS going to have a negative effect on what they can get out of you. Yes, it’s self interested, but as long as he recognizes that it’s a problem and is willing to dos something about it, that’s all you need.

  122. Asking for a raise*

    Perfect timing! I have a question about asking for a raise. I was going to ask last week but had trouble posting and got some new information today that changes my question a little bit.

    Background: I’ve been at my company for about 3 years. I joined right out of college and about 6 months later oil tanked and we had company-wide salary freezes. I was also hired at the absolute bottom of my pay grade, which was fair because I had no experience. At the end of last year I got a decent raise (7%) but it’s because HR did a market adjustment and raised the bottom of the pay grade. I’m still at the bottom of my pay grade. According to our Intranet, I think I should be at least 10% above where I am now. Today, we got an email saying the freeze is over and everyone should be seeing something on their pay within the next month. *However* from the way the email is written it sounds like they’ve already decided all the salary increases and I won’t know what it is until it goes into effect. Obviously I need to make my own opportunity, but…

    Complicating factors: We’ve recently had a major organizational shakeup. My direct boss is away on leave for a year and her boss was let go. The new big boss has been here for all of a week, and the person who was replacing my manager is more of a technical team lead than a people manager – he’s also my former colleague so I’m still getting used to the new dynamic and all the hr stuff hasn’t been worked out yet with regards to what he’s responsible for (e.g. approving vacation requests or timesheets). Who do I talk to about my raise? I’m a little concerned that the guy who’s technically my direct manager doesn’t have enough experience or confidence to go and advocate for me (or even ask about pay increases ahead of when HR decides to release them, which will obviously be too late). But my grandboss doesn’t know me very well and I’m still trying to get to know him, and I’m worried that coming and asking about this in advance will make me stand out in a bad way – sometimes squeaky wheels get replaced. I also kind of don’t want his first impression of me to be about asking for more money, when it sounds like this is an organization-wide policy (which it totally ridiculous because we have like 5000 employees). But the email did say the raises would be for both market adjustments and merit increases so I feel like I should get a chance to see how they’re assessing me and give my input if it’s warranted.

    Question: I want to know what I’ve been allocated and then have an opportunity to put in a case for more if I think it’s too low. Who should I talk to, the new big boss or my former colleague turned sort-of manager? And how would you phrase both the initial request to discuss things and the discussion itself?

    1. Arduino*

      I would treat this like any other raise question and speak to your current interim direct supervisor. Alison has several posts on how to ask for a raise. In addition to her advice I would also acknowledge that you appreciate the recent market adjustment but that you have been here for over three years and are still at the 1st percentile. Given my time hear combined with cuz accomplishments I would expect my salty to be $X

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Initial request: “Hey, Bob, I have some things to ask you and I was wondering when we could schedule about 20 minutes of time to talk about stuff.”

      Actual meeting: Using the specifics of your setting, craft an explanation why you merit a raise. Keep in mind that you are providing your boss with the words to present his argument to the higher ups. So craft your rationale as if the whole world is listening.

      I would consider going to the big boss. If I went to the big boss, I would preface my question by explaining why I am asking him. “I wanted to talk to you instead of Bob, because I think that you have the background on how to procedurally handle my question. Bob will know how in a bit and right now he has a lot on his plate, therefore I wanted to ask you.

  123. HelloItsMe*

    Going through the hiring process for a new role. I can’t believe how awful people’s applications are! I commented today in the post about cover letters but… it’s really really bad. It makes me wonder how I haven’t gotten interviews for every job I’ve ever applied to if this is the types of applications people get all the time! I also don’t understand how (for the people who do submit cover letters) why people don’t write like they speak. It’s such weird jargon that no one ever says, and I don’t know who told them to do it. Or they’re plagiarized! (I can tell because those are the worst ones!) It’s an entry level position, but still — most of them have college degrees!

    It’s not much better than when I posted for jobs a couple years ago. I ran a music school. I’d get applications in like, “I don’t play music and I don’t know anything about music but I promise I’ll work so hard and you can pay me half.” Like, really? How are you supposed to teach people to play trumpet if you’re worse at it than the students! I just really don’t understand.

    1. Mrs. Fenris*

      You should see the resumes we get in animal hospitals! We can advertise for a registered veterinary technician (a role that requires formal schooling and a state issued license) and get applicants who say “I’ve never worked at a veterinarian clinic but I love animals.”

  124. Sally Sparrow*

    I am at my wits end with one of my coworkers. She is marginally higher than me seniority wise, but not enough to be assigning me and telling me work to do. As in – I do not receive work from her. At all.

    I’ve been told in no uncertain terms from everyone I get work from, including my supervisor and our VP that my top priority is helping the Teapot Design team (which I normally help with but not the entirety of my day) with their busiest 2 weeks (though it may be more, we’re not sure right now). I’ve informed everyone I receive work from (all of them higher than CW) that I cannot do X and Y right now and to go to Nice Coworker, or that I won’t be able to do X or Y until DATE if it can wait that long.

    CW will not listen. She keeps coming to me with things. I need time to discuss Teapot Session that is not for another month that I am filling in for her on, but could totally wait until next week to discuss. I need you to print X teapot papers in less than 15 minutes (causing me to drop everything), when she knows where the files are to print them. When I say that means I will have to stop doing Priority Z with Teapot Design team she gets irritated but won’t drop it so I go and do as she told me to.

    To make things more complicated, Nice Coworker and I have previously gotten talked to because NCW “assigned” me work (she asked me to help her with something when she didn’t have time), and I was told only supervisors/people above irritating CW’s level are allowed to do that.

    I plan on bringing this up to my supervisor (who has unfortunately been out this week). Because the last-minute things are extremely disruptive to my work day and I am confused on what my priorities actually are/should be. Right now I have documented today’s incident (which I could have handled better and pushed back on, I don’t have time to do this, but I can show you where the files are or you can ask NCW), and printed out a copy of the email chain where I told her I don’t have time and won’t have time until April.

    But now I’m trying to decide if that is too nuclear/overboard/not appropriate.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Honestly, the next time she pushes you for something, tell her to take it up with your supervisor, but you cannot work on it for her. And then just let it go and *don’t* do it.

      1. CoffeeLover*

        +1
        “Supervisor told me I need to focus on X, so I can’t help you with that right now. Sorry.” Done. Repeat as needed and finish off with a “I really need to get back to this so I can’t discuss this anymore.” Walk away.

      2. tigerStripes*

        You might want to warn your supervisor that you’ll be doing this, but yeah. Something like “My supervisor said I need to give this my highest priority, but if you want to ask her if I should stop this to do your thing, OK.”

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Mix and match as desired:

      “Supervisor and VP have been very clear that my priority right now is to support the Teapot Design team, so I won’t be able to help with this today.”

      “As I told you, I don’t have time to do this, as my priority right now is Teapot Design.”

      “Have you run that by VP and Supervisor? They’re in charge of my tasking, and they’ve made it pretty clear that my first priority is Design work. ”

      Repeat as necessary.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Also, keep in mind, this is her being lazy and scatterbrained and trying to arm-twist you into doing her work. She knows bloody well where the files are, and she has time to complete everything she needs to do, she just wants to offload it on you. Don’t feel any obligation to this jerk.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      I wouldn’t use “If I do Y for you, I can’t do Z” with a coworker. You use it with a boss who is trying to add more stuff to your plate, because the boss (if reasonable) will understand that she can ask you for only one of those things.

      The obnoxious coworker doesn’t care whether you get Z done. She wants Y done, and she doesn’t want to do it herself. So the way to phrase it is, “I’m working on Z, so I can’t help you.” And if she pushes, “I really need to get back to Z, thanks.” Put headphones on if you need to/can.

    4. Observer*

      Why are you doing the things she asked you to? She’s not your supervisor and she is not supposed to be giving you work.

      If you’ve refused and she’s causing problems, the OF COURSE you should bring it up to your supervisor. Why would you even doubt it? You’ve gotten clear instructions about what you are supposed to be doing and she’s causing problems. It’s on your boss to navigate that.

  125. MegaMoose, Esq*

    Networking for introverts Update: Week Four

    I just got back from my second coffee since starting this big networking push about a month ago now. This was another law school classmate, one who moved in similar social circles and was friendly with, so again reasonably low pressure. I think starting with a couple of known quantities was smart – so much of my anxiety rotates around self-consciousness and difficulty connecting authentically with new people, and so talking with people who already know me took much of the weight off, especially since they were both incredibly nice and supportive from the minute I reached out. Neither of them seemed to think that my having delayed a few years before pursuing a job in private practice is an insurmountable problem, and both independently volunteered that they think my experience would be sufficient to find me work if I get on enough radars.

    So my next goal is to start reaching out to people I don’t know. I’m working on my email pitch, if anyone has any suggestions!

    Hi Marisa, my name is Lyra, and I am an attorney interested in pursuing a career in aviation law. Iorek Byrnison, a law school classmate of mine, suggested that I reach out to you. If you are available, I would love to get coffee some time soon and talk about your work representing armored bears. I work in downtown Oxford and am generally available during the week.

    Best,
    Lyra Belacqua

    1. CM*

      I love the references. I don’t think I’ve seen your earlier updates, but what you’re doing sounds good. I think it would be more effective, if you can, to get your friend Iorek to email the person directly and CC you, and say, “Hey, Marisa, my friend Lyra is interested in aviation law, would you be willing to talk to her about it?” and then you could respond and say, “Thanks, Iorek. Marisa, if you’re available, I’d love to get coffee sometime soon,” etc. I might respond to your email, but I’d feel a social obligation to respond if a friend contacted me directly.

      Another thing you might consider is going to CLEs or other events in your practice area and networking with people there. Speakers are often willing to talk with you more, or you can strike up a conversation with the person sitting next to you and tell them you’re looking for advice about getting into aviation law.

      1. MegaMoose, Esq*

        Thanks! About the direct email: when I had coffee both today and a couple of weeks ago, my former classmates suggestion I reach out to these people, but didn’t volunteer to do so on my behalf. I was very clear that I intend to follow up on those recommendations. Wouldn’t it seem odd to go back to them now and ask for an introduction? I get the benefit, I guess it just feels like it would be kind of presumptuous at this point?

        I’m definitely going to start keeping an eye out for CLEs and events – I’ve gotten a couple of suggestions there as well. There’s a big industry event in May that I learned about this morning. I’ve got to say that it sounds HORRIFYING, but hopefully by then I’ll have gotten a lot more experience with this kind of thing.

        1. CM*

          No, I don’t think it would seem odd or presumptuous, as long as it’s just a couple of people that they need to contact. Just say, “I’d like to follow up with so-and-so. Would you mind sending a quick email of introduction and CCing me? If not, let me know and I’ll contact them directly.”

          Also, my tips for CLEs, events, etc. from a fellow introvert: do targeted networking if you can (identify maybe 1-3 people who you’d really like to meet, and focus on having a conversation with them rather than randomly walking up to groups of people), and take it easy. Duck into the bathroom for a few minutes when you need a break from socializing, and if you’ve had at least one good substantive conversation, give yourself permission to call it a day.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq*

          Huh, I didn’t think about *that* but I can see it. I suppose I’d never start a cover letter with “my name is” so why do it here?

      2. MegaMoose, Esq*

        Good point. I often default to that (I guess I think it sounds more polite maybe?), but it’s probably unnecessary. Less is more and all that.

        1. LawCat*

          I don’t think you need to say that you’re an attorney either since your connection is already identified as a law school one ;-)

          1. LawCat*

            But it’s a nitpicky comment on my part. I agree with Rusty, but I also wouldn’t likely even make much note of it as a recipient of such an email.

        2. MegaMoose, Esq*

          I mostly want to make it explicit that I’m not a law student, since I suspect a lot of these contacts come from students. I’m not 100% sure that’s vital information, and if the person knows when my classmates graduated from law school they could infer it pretty easy, but it seems helpful.

          1. LawCat*

            I see what you’re saying on the law student-ness. Maybe something like:

            Hi Marisa,
            I’m an attorney interested in gaining insight into aviation law practice. A mutual acquaintance, Iorek Byrnison, suggested that I reach out to you. I would love to talk to you about your work in the field, particularly your work representing armored bears. Do you have any availability to meet up for coffee or chat on the phone in the next few weeks?
            Best,
            Lyra Belacqua

            (I suggested adding the phone option since some people might be more available for a phone chat than leaving the office and going out somewhere.)

            1. MegaMoose, Esq*

              Hm, I do like the phone option, although I hate talking on the phone with the fire of a million suns. I’ll have to think (and overthink) the benefits of former classmate vs. mutual acquaintance.

    3. Lulubell*

      I would include the reference name immediately, so they see it even if they were just skimming emails: “Hi Marisa, Iorek Byrnison recommended I contact you, as I’m an attorney interested in pursuing a career in aviation law. Iorek mentioned your work with bears had some highly relevant crossover in this area.”

      And personally, I feel like coffee is a big ask from someone you’ve never met and is only a tenuous connection. I’d be more specific about what you are hoping to learn from them (what about their work, etc.), and ask if they wouldn’t mind chatting for a few minutes over email, phone or coffee. Unless someone is willing to come to my office during business hours to meet for coffee in my building, I am highly unlikely to meet them. I’d probably use the opener above and add something like, “As I am just getting into this field I would be so grateful to talk to you for a few minutes to find out more about your work and this area of practice. Would you be willing to chat for a few minutes over email, phone, or coffee? I’m happy to outline a few specific areas of focus in advance, if that’s helpful.”

      Good luck!

  126. Bork*

    TL;DR: favorite blogs/Pintrest pages for work clothes that are a notch above business casual, but not too nice :) ?

    I basically wear leggings to work every day. They are Uniqlo’s Legging Pants that actually work really well for a very laid back office like mine.

    Anyway, I gave a speech at a conference a few weeks ago and as I looked through my closet I panicked. All the ‘nice’ clothes I used to wear at my previous office suddenly looked hideous. I wanted to just grab the entire rack and throw it out the window. I ultimately found an outfit I liked (navy blazer, grey J Crew slacks, blue Nordstrom’s Pleione print shirt, flats) and gave my presentation a few days later. I will calmly be looking at my closet this weekend, but I was wondering if there are any blogs/Pintrest boards you’d recommend for conferences and/or outfits for presenting. Business Casual is too casual and I don’t want to look like lawyer either (fantastic, but too sharp and out of place for my industry). Finding that perfect medium has proven to be challenging.

    Thanks to this super causal office, I really only need 3 outfits (5 just to be safe) to wear for professional occasions or when I am headquarters throughout the year.

    2. Cookie D'Oh*

      These are some of the fashion blogs I follow.

      Outfit Posts
      Blue Collar Red Lipstick
      Wardrobe Oxygen

      You Look Fab is a good general fashion blog. The forums are pretty helpful. You can even post pictures of your outfits and get feedback. I’ve seen people post pics without showing their face. Corporette might have some info too.

    3. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Head to Banana Republic or, better yet, Ann Taylor and ask one of the sales ladies to help you. They can get you sorted with a decent shift dress that won’t look lawyery (read: suited) but polished. I got my presentation outfits for major academic conferences and work presentations at Ann Taylor.

      Am dead jealous you can work those Uniqlo legging trousers – they re fab but I just really shouldnt be anywhere near something like that!

  127. Trix*

    I interviewed yesterday for another position within my company, but it’s a large company (50K+) and this is in an entirely different business area. I know that in general (at least in my division), we don’t negotiate on salary. Hard stop, it doesn’t happen, each position has a number where you start, and it’s re-evaluated annually across the board (basically COL) and individually by merit (sort of, it’s odd).

    The company being so large, it’s entirely possible that this division is more open to negotiation, but if it’s like my current division, I’d be given a little bit of side eye for even bringing it up. Is there any way to ask “so is this what it is, take it or leave it, or can we discuss alternatives?” without either a) looking naïve, like I have an odd lack of understanding about the company where I’ve worked for four years, or b) sounding way too timid and possibly giving up any negotiating power I might actually have?

    Am I overthinking it, or is this actually a tricky situation to get right?

    1. CM*

      I like the phrase, “Is there any flexibility on salary?” I think that’s pretty reasonable — if you get a flat no, you know where you stand.

  128. Lady Blerd*

    Ever do something that you know is directly linked to AAM?

    I’ve be wanting to talk to our policy guru for days and happen to run into her as she was coming in for work. And the situation was perfect as there was no one else around and hallway discussion are a common thing where I work. But like I said, she was literally walking in, had her coat and lunch bag in hand. After seeing a few questions about people needing a moment to get settled in morning made me hold my question and honestly, it was not a life or death situation.

      1. Lady Blerd*

        We are an open floor office and we all have access to each other and we can all see each whenever. I could have simply called her later that day or go se her or sent her an email but it was more of a discussion about a hypothetical hiring situation.

  129. Machiamellie*

    I have a chronic pain condition and as I get older, I’m slowing down. I’m in a high-energy position (recruiter) and would like to transition to an analyst role. How should I tell prospective employers that that’s why I need to change positions? I already have to disclose my disability due to the need to work remotely as a reasonable accommodation; I hate to bring up that I’m not “high energy” (although I do great work, I just don’t put out the impression that I have a lot of hustle).

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Being a recruiter sounds exhausting and I don’t have a chronic condition – do you think people will question you if you just say that you’re looking for a change of pace?

      1. Machiamellie*

        I don’t know. It’s just on every app I submit online – why am I looking to leave – and I hate to just put “something new” or “new opportunity” etc.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq*

          Yeah, I hate that. I am not the expert here, but I’ve always wondered how seriously those fields get looked at – I would be more concerned answering the question in a cover letter or interview. Most of the time people change jobs for really boring reasons, though. I would think that the people doing hiring would be used to it and wouldn’t hold it against you.

    2. Mimmy*

      MegaMoose makes a good point. A piece of advice I’ve been given in the past (and keep forgetting!) is to frame it in terms of preferences, rather than saying you can’t do something because of such-and-such disability or situation. So you could say something along the lines of, “I’ve enjoyed working in a high-energy position, but am now interested in a position that is more low-key” (“low-key” may not be an appropriate descriptor, but it’s all I could come up with).

    3. LCL*

      ‘My work with recruiting has exposed me to the analytical side of it, and I find it fascinating. I would love to work in an analyst role.’

    4. Undine*

      Can you say something about “using your experience to transition to a more ‘strategic’ role.” I assume there’s some overlap between your recruitment role and the analysis you want to do, and emphasizing that you want to look at the bigger picture and contribute the depth of experience you have might be the way to go. Or other positives that you bring to the role. That seems a natural career progression to me — no one wants to be on the frontlines forever.

    5. Office Plant*

      Offering a different perspective here. I have used “more interested in xyz” as a cover for physical limitations. The truth would have been, “also interested in things related to xyz but not the core requirements of the job.” So maybe it was more of a stretch in my case. And it didn’t work. I could only feign interest in a career path for so long. It was obvious that I was unhappy. At that point, I felt uncomfortable explaining my situation. Some of my co-workers were kind of nasty and I was afraid they’d take issue with said physical limitations. So I left to slowly make a career change. It’s going pretty well. But as I look back at my job history, there were so many times that I tried to present myself as someone who didn’t have physical limitations, hadn’t graduated from the school of hard knocks, had a normal family situation, was interested in everything related to their job, had had plenty of options, and so on. I thought it was necessary to get a job. But living out a sort of lie was really stressful, and I slowly realized that it wasn’t necessary. I’m still in the same situation to some extent. I freelance and I’m kind of selective about what I share about myself with clients . . . But that’s different from my previous situation. As I look for employment, I’m trying to be more upfront about who I am and holding out for an employer who will be ok with it.

  130. anonamasaurus*

    I’m having a huge do I stay or do I go dilemma. I’ve been unhappy in my job do to unclear expectations, overall lack of leadership, not enough pay, and being overburdened at work. Although I also like the kind of work I do, am good at it and have been able to carve out a good portion of my time to work that I like doing. It’s a niche field with few openings, but also very limited local opportunities. I can move and have been applying for jobs all over the country but haven’t had a ton of luck. I was about to give my notice even though I don’t have anything else lined up because I’m that frustrated/miserable – but in the last week 2 of our 3 (including myself) person staff have given notice. I can apply for the director position and have an ok chance of getting it. But there’s also a big part of me that just doesn’t want to be here anymore even if I’m in charge – there will still be some difficult constraints around money and the relationship with the larger institution. Also, we’re about to enter our busy season and I don’t know if I have it in me to train new staff and step up and get us through another crazy season.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Do you even want the position?
      How about support, if you move up, will you be supported in finding new people?

      Will the promotion look good on your resume? Will it benefit you in the long run?

      Would taking on the new position help to distract you from your current unhappiness or would it just expand that unhappiness?

  131. babblemouth*

    So I’ve had a weird day. I’m working on three separate projects, and for two of them had meetings that went exceptinally well. I’m very pleased. The third one? i walked out of the meeting, sat at my desk and started crying. Like, actual loud sobs. Without going into details, I’ve come to absolutely hate the projcet, and am begging my manager to help take me off it. It’s not fully in his control, but he is doing his damn best, and I appreciate that.
    I need tips to focus on the good (great) stuff happening in the other two projects, because right now, even though I know intellectually I shouldn’t do that, I am in a small spiral of anger and frustration, and I need to focus on the positive to keep enjoying going to work.
    Ideas?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Self care of course. Taking walks is a good way to dissipate anger/frustration.

      You may want to actually write a list of things you are grateful for and add a few things to that list each day.
      If you don’t have a kudos/accolades file now is a good time to set one up.

      In a quiet moment, try, try to find a big picture focus. If you are standing in front of a large tree it’s tough to find a path through the woods. In your mind, take a step back and look at the big picture. Among the things I have been able to tell myself is “X years ago I could not have handled Y and just last year I would not have gotten through Z like I did this month.” Make a deliberate point of thinking of the ways you have progressed.

      Also understand that it is normal to grieve things that are not going well. It’s healthy. Acknowledge that to yourself, “I am sad that project 3 is not going well.” Decide to allow yourself to feel sad. It’s when we tell ourselves that we SHOULDN’T feel sad that we start having even bigger sadnesses.

  132. Jan Levinson*

    Is anyone else having a hard time focusing at work today with March Madness going on? :)

    1. Taylor Swift*

      Ha, not me but my coworker is! At every other time of the year he is always completely focused on his work, and he always does great work, so I think it’s kind of cute that during March Madness he gets distracted by having game trackers up on his computer. College basketball appears to be his only vice.

    2. Undine*

      oh, gila Monster is out of the tournament, so I’m less invested now :) But I *think* pouched rat advanced :)

    3. MoodyMoody*

      I live in North Carolina. The past few days have been a lot of basketball from the teams that made the tournament. In fact, as I write this, my husband is watching Troy v. Duke and weakly rooting for Duke. (We both attended UNC, and he kept checking the Texas Southern game before he got off today. He was delighted to see an old-fashioned walloping: 101-64.)

    4. Sparkly Librarian*

      Yes, but only because I had the grand idea of creating giant wall brackets for the men’s and women’s competitions. So much drawing and cutting and gluing and crawling around on the floor to get the Top 64 (x2) on there! I have a massive headache.

  133. GalFriday*

    Hi everyone,

    I’m starting to think about how to plan for my maternity leave. I have tasks that are more specifically related to my department and tasks that are management and administrative. For the departmental tasks I’m going to ask my team to help back them up while I’m out. My team is made up of professionals and paraprofessionals, and for the professionals I’m inclined to say something like, “Jane, I’m giving you this task, and Fergus, I’m giving you this task; however, if in practice you find that isn’t working out and you’d like to switch or handle coverage some other way that’s fine as long as the work gets done.” Maybe also ask them to run those changes by my counterpart manager.

    My question is, is that ok, or should I ask them to just do that task until I get back? It could be good for their professional development and force them to grow/adapt into new tasks. Should I emphasize that or flexibility and practicality?

    I’ve never done this before and would appreciate your thoughts!

    1. Murphy*

      Are you the manager? It sounds like you are, in which case I think it’s ok to assign tasks.

      I have an upcoming maternity leave, also my first, and I am not the manager, so my perspective is a little different. But I came up with a list of things that would need to be covered in my absence and gave it to my boss. He and another manager discussed it and at our bi-weekly meeting they shared it with the group and mentioned who they thought would be good for each task. We had a follow-up meeting specifically about my leave and they changed a few assignments based on feedback. I think the meeting was good to iron things out, and I’m glad that they took feedback from my co-workers. (I had the feeling that one person was a bit unhappy with one particular task.) We set a date for me to crosstrain people, and next week we have a follow-up meeting to discuss the status of my tasks. (I should say, I’m basically a department of one and, while my co-workers are definitely capable of doing my work, I’m the only person who does my tasks, so that might not be the same as other people’s situations.)

      1. GalFriday*

        Hi Murphy! I am the manager, and I’ll certainly be assigning tasks. My question is more about how firm to be with the assignment – whether I should tell people I want them to do this, full stop, or tell them I want them to do this, but allow for flexibility in who ultimately does it (for example, if it turns out Fergus hates running a particular meeting).

        Sorry for not being clear and thanks for your feedback!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          It’s my style to ask, instead of tell them. YMMV.

          The problem comes in with Distasteful Task that no one wants. You could assign that one then toss in a treat. “Everyone else is taking on two of my tasks but because you have the Distasteful Task I am only asking you to do this one thing.”

          Try to assign with their abilities in mind, like you say here with running meetings.

          I have no idea if this would fit your setting but maybe you can create a lists of tasks and send around a sign up sheet for volunteers. Make it clear that if there are tasks left over you will have to assign them, but you thought that maybe if people volunteered then people would end up with something that was a good match for them.

  134. Karo*

    What questions have you guys asked (to good effect) during an interview where you’re meeting potential co-workers? Specifically when you’re interviewing for a position on their team.

    1. GalFriday*

      I’ve found it helpful to ask what they as coworkers would be looking for in a person who fills that position. It’s interesting to see if they mention characteristics or behaviors and what specifically they do talk about. It gives you an opportunity to talk about how you’d fit that description and learn about them as individuals, as a team, and get a glimpse of past behavior from others in that position.

    2. Trix*

      I know I’m late, but I had an interview on Thursday with both the hiring manager and with a potential coworker. I asked a variation of Alison’s magic question (“looking back at different people who’ve been in this role, what differentiated someone who was good from someone who was really excellent?”), and I got an answer from both of them.

      They both agreed with what the other said, but they both gave different perspectives, which was really useful to me (especially since they were basically describing me, so that was cool).

      I also specifically asked the potential coworker about the culture in the team day to day.

  135. jemerson60060*

    I work at a non-profit, where I started about a year ago. I was recently talking with some coworkers (who are senior to me and interviewed me but don’t have the power to fire/hire) about visibility/name recognition issues with our organization. To reinforce the issue I mentioned how I had never hear about our organization before applying for the job. One coworker who interviewed me said in a slightly joking manner “If I had known that then I would not have hired you” this person interviewed me and made a recommendation on who should be hired to the person actually doing the hiring who I never spoke with. Since I was hired I have done good work, received various positive feed back, haven’t had any issues brought up or think I’ve had any issues that just haven’t been brought up, and I have become friends (in a coworker/work setting kind of way) with people in the office. In hindsight I should not have revealed this information, but at the time I thought it was relevant to the discussion. My question is how much of a negative impact if any would this have to my reputation and credibility?

    2. CoffeeLover*

      I think it will have zero impact. Your coworker was joking about interview expectations vs reality. Everyone applies to jobs at companies they’ve never heard of before. Unless you’re in a really niche industry or applying to huge companies (like google) it’s unlikely you’ll know the company before applying. Of course, when you decide to apply (and certainly before the interview) you’re expected to do some due diligence and learn about the company. We all fake it a little when the question of why you want to work at this particular company comes up (no one says, well I didn’t know you before I applied… hence what your coworker was joking about). I do think the later you get in your career the more you know both big and small players in your field. Even then, the second you move to a new place, you may need to start from scratch.

      I think your comment was totally appropriate and you didn’t really “reveal” anything. Your coworkers know your company has bad visibility.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have said this at a few jobs. NO worries. it is relevant to the discussion. If you ever get caught like this again, just ask, “Well, Bob, how did you hear of this place?” People love to tell stories and you can pull the focus off of you.

  136. Interviewee, patiently waiting*

    I had a phone interview at the tale end of February, and the recruiter told me the timeline for follow up would be in about a week. It has now been almost three weeks. I found an old thread where AAM suggested that you should triple the timeline a recruiter gives you, and now I’m nearly at this tripled date. For what it’s worth, this recruiter told me this was the first time he worked with this department to place someone, and he’s fairly new to the company– so it’s quite possible that he greatly underestimated how long things would take. I guess I’m wondering if I should use one of the scripts on this site for following up and seeing if the timeline is updated?

    Also.. he had asked me for my GPA in a program I graduated from years ago, and I gave him the wrong number since I didn’t remember, 3.8–I checked my transcripts and it was actually 3.94. Is it worth mentioning this in the update email (like “oh, and also, I found out my GPA and it was higher than what I originally told you”), or should I just wait until if he contacts me again? My first inclination is that it doesn’t really matter, but if they asked about it, it must matter to them at least a little bit. But, even if it matters, a potential “update” email may not be the place for it.

    1. Root*

      I know how you feel; I’m overdue for my follow-up too. And I wouldn’t mention the GPA unless you’re asked; it’ll look like bragging otherwise.

      1. Interviewee, patiently waiting*

        Thanks for the advice on the GPA, I think you’re right.

        Did you decide to follow-up with the interviewer yourself?

    2. J-me*

      So much might be happening behind the scenes that you don’t know about. It took me almost a month to hear back after an interview, and after I was hired, I found out why. The HR person who was my initial contact quit, and they were short staffed. On top of that, HR was moved to a different hiring management software system, and my boss told me they lost track of who had contacted me when. I reached out to them after 4 weeks beacuse I received another job offer, and that kicked things into gear.

      All this to say, all kinds of innocent stuff can happen to hold up the process.

      Good luck!

      1. Interviewee, patiently waiting*

        That was my thought as well — especially when I considered how new this staff member is.

        Maybe I’ll give it another week or so! Thank you for your input.

  137. AliceBD*

    Question about job searching out of state.

    I am applying for jobs in a specific metro area of the state I grew up in (state A). I currently live in a neighboring state (state B). It’s about a 6 hour drive between the city I live in and the city I want to move to. It will be very difficult financially for me to move without a new job lined up, and I have chronic health conditions that mean I absolutely must have health insurance, so I am not looking for the “move to the the new city and then find a job” advice.

    Instead of an address on my cover letter I put “Moving to City, State B”. I clearly state in my cover letter (last paragraph) that I grew up in State B and I’m looking to move to be closer to family and I’m willing to cover all relocation expenses. On my resume I list the cities that my jobs have been in, which are all in State A as I haven’t worked in State B since I graduated from college, and which show that I am currently living in State A. If it matters, my phone number is my cell phone, and the area code is for a large portion of State B.

    However, some application systems make you put in your address, and for those I put in my current address in State A. My aunt lives in the city I am trying to move to in State B, and I would move in with her while I find a place to live when I get a job there. Should I be putting her address instead? I’m worried that people would want me to come in for an interview on very little notice. I really need to try to have a phone interview first, and then I’m happy to travel to State B at my own expense for an in-person interview, but it’s not a “come over after work/during your lunch break” type of quick trip so I need a day or two notice.

    Any other advice for job-searching long distance is welcome.

    1. Turkletina*

      When I was job-hunting out of state, I used a local (i.e., State B) address *and* wrote in my cover letter that I was planning to move to State B.

      I also don’t think you need to say that you’re moving to be closer to family. And when you get contacted for an interview, don’t worry about the timing too much. They won’t know whether you’re coming during lunch or taking the whole day off, anyway.

    2. Chicagoan*

      Maybe I am over-simplifying your situation.. but when I was looking to get a job about four hours away from where I lived, I simply stated in the cover letter that I was looking to relocate to Chicago (the city of my job search). I had the benefit that people move to and from Chicago all the time, especially from neighboring states, so it probably didn’t seem so crazy. I used my out-of-state address and phone number, and all of my jobs were from my original state. I don’t think it mattered. I wouldn’t necessarily put your aunt’s address on it as I agree that it might make you look local.. although even locally, most places give you more than a couple of day’s notice!

      I found an old cover letter from a place that actually gave me an interview, and my exact language was: “I am looking for an opportunity to relocate to Chicago and work in the teapot field.” That’s it. I didn’t mention anything about relocation expenses as I didn’t even think that was an option, but every employer did mention they wouldn’t pay those fees.

      Good luck with your search!

  138. IrishEm*

    Happy Paddy’s Day, all!

    I’ve got an odd situation at the moment. The background: I studied humanities subjects because I was never sure what kind of work I wanted to do, and got a retail job that I held onto after the recession hit leaving me with 7 years of retail experience in what ended up as a dead end job (I was good with the customers, so management kept sniping my attempts to climb the ladder) that destroyed my self-confidence, motivation and damaged my health. I still have chronic pain that is manageable but sucks. I left work to go back to college with the ambition to get into the Cultural Heritage industry. There’s no money in that in Ireland right now, and so I have broadened my work search to cover jobs that will play up my customer service superpowers and not make me want to kill myself.

    The situation: I’ve been out of college and out of work since January 16. Last week I was at a networking event and made a contact with a recruiter. This guy *knows* that I don’t want to work in retail for the good of my health but is strongly pushing me into an interview with a butchers’ where they want a “personal shopper” which would play up all my customer service superpowers but pays worse than the job I left two years ago. He eventually persuaded me to go to an interview tomorrow morning, but has not left me the name or contact details of the interviewer. All I know is which shopping centre the interview will be in and the name of the chain that is hiring.

    Today is a Bank Holiday, so he’s out of office, and won’t be working tomorrow, either, so I have no idea what’s supposed to happen at this interview that I don’t even want to go to for a job I don’t even want. I can’t back out of it without looking like a flaky no-shower, and honestly I find the idea of no-showing terribly rude, but the place is HUGE and I have no idea where to even start looking for interviewers, and even a name or gender of whom will be doing the interview. Has anyone any advice for this situation?

    1. CM*

      On one hand, if you said you would go, and it’s not a huge burden, you should just go.

      On the other, if you’re certain this is of no interest to you and don’t care about having a future relationship with the recruiter or the store, just don’t show up. Yes, it’s rude. But there won’t be any consequences.

    2. IrishEm*

      I ended up going for the interview – he texted me late last night saying he couldn’t connect all day – my phone was beside me all day so there should not have been a problem, but how and ever, I had the name I needed. The interview didn’t even really start, I was watching one of their staff doing a food demo and the guy told me that’s what I’d be doing, and I (honestly) said that I can’t cook to save my life. This is also something I made explicitly clear to the recruiter, and I had no wish to misrepresent myself. Food demos and cooking were a cornerstone of the role the recruiter had me going for, despite my making it abundantly clear that I am not able to fulfil that aspect of the role. I am so annoyed right now. Not only was the actual work not the kind of work I wanted to do, I had been misrepresented by the recruiter to them as able to fulfil all the duties of the role, when I can’t perform the most crucial aspect of it. Are ALL recruiters like this? Pushing people at jobs they can’t actually do to get their numbers up? And the interview was at a location not served by public transport so I just spent a total of €40 on taxis to and from that I’ll never see again, for an interview I didn’t want, for work I’m not able to do, and it just seems very messy to me. *ugh*

      From Monday I’ll be getting a new qualification in Digital Marketing, so hopefully I’ll get work that will use my Customer Service superpower and my new digital marketing skills. And I will be able to be more particular about the type of work I want to do. This has just really annoyed me.

  139. CM*

    I’ve been at my current job about six months. I have a coworker that started about two months after me. Everybody else on the team has been here for years. Recently I was in a meeting with my fellow new coworker, the big boss, and others on my team, and I noticed something: big boss kept pausing the meeting to explain things to my new coworker. I don’t recall anything getting explained to me like that. I spent my first few months sitting a lot of meetings feeling clueless, scribbling down things to look up later, and interrupting with basic questions. I have also received very little feedback or direction at this job, so I assumed that it was all part of how the group operates — everyone just does their thing, and maybe they didn’t really take into account that new hires need more context because everyone else has been around for a long time. But that whole meeting, I kept thinking, “How come HE gets an explanation and I don’t?? I really could have used that explanation months ago!” I was tempted to bring it up, but I think it should just let it go.

    (I can think of a few possible reasons: there could be a gender dynamic at play, or it could be that I have a few more years of experience than my coworker and they assume I know things — although the latter seems unlikely because there are so many things that are specific to this job.)

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Try to hold in a good light because holding it in a negative light won’t serve you well. I do know what you are saying. One hope is that the boss knew you were in earshot so he was trying to fill you in also?

      You may come across like you do not need explanations. Some people do. I am working with a person like that now. She seems to be on top of everything, she does the right things and says the right words. I am not clear on how to support her. So I just show up and answer what questions she does ask. Hopefully, she thinks I am in her corner.

  140. Clever Name*

    I wish silly things that don’t matter didn’t bother me. One of my officemates has switched offices. Except he left 90% of his stuff in his old spot. I’ve offered several times to help him carry stuff, and he’s brushed me off. The last time he was over here he picked up one item. I said, “Hey, I can help you with some of these books”. He looked at his small bookshelf, heaved a heavy sigh and said, “I really don’t feel like moving my stuff now”. I don’t know why this annoys me so much, but it does. He also left a bowl of water on the floor (for his dog). I didn’t mind it being on the floor when we had a dog in here who drank from it, but leaving it comes off as lazy and inconsiderate. Grr.

    1. CM*

      That would bother me too. But it doesn’t seem like you’ve told him what you want. Say, “Hey, former officemate. Now that you’re in your new office, I want your stuff out of my office. Can you have everything out by the end of the week? I’m willing to help you move stuff.”

      1. Clever Name*

        Yes, I definitely need to be direct; I just don’t know that I should. He’s super-sensitive and I know he’ll take it personally. :/ I’m not sure my minor annoyance is worth it. I may wait a while until it becomes really silly that he still has his stuff over here and then say something.

    2. fposte*

      Just to be clear–are you in his old spot, or is this just something in your visual field?

      If you’re in his old spot, I’m with CM, and you can absolutely box his stuff up if he doesn’t. But if you’re not and it’s just in your larger space, I’d empty and move the water bowl and then let the rest of it go.

      1. Clever Name*

        No, it’s just in my visual field. That’s why it’s such a lame thing to be annoyed about. It really doesn’t affect me at all.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, I think that’s another “Let it gooooo” thing. I get the irritation, but it’s kind of like the irritation at somebody else’s label being stuck up on the back of their shirt.

    3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I’d use language like, “Now that you’re in your new office, we really need you to move your stuff. Is the end of the week reasonable?”

      And then if he doesn’t, I’d box it up and dump it on his new desk. Ain’t nobody got time fo dat.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      “Bob, having all of your stuff still here isn’t working for me. It’s distracting to have you coming in and out to retrieve one or two items at a time. Can we set up a day that you will have all of your stuff moved? I’m willing to help.” Make it more clear that he doesn’t get to brush you off. “Bob, if you are aren’t able to do it, I’m going to box up these books for you by Friday.”

      Are you annoyed about the stuff or that he keeps coming back? He sounds like he is not happy with the move and still thinks of his old office as “home,” otherwise he would eventually get tired of walking back and forth. All of this depends though on whether you have the authority to push back.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        I think your irritation by the “silly thing” is that you feel like you are powerless to stop it. Is that really true?

  141. INTP*

    I’m curious what AAM-ers think of this story about a man fired on his first day at work who had a terminally ill wife: https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/03/13/the-soullessness-machine/rpljPWdV7gSVlBdMoygDXP/story.html

    The TL;DR version is that this guy came to work on his first day and explained to his manager that he could only work his standard 40-hour week because his wife was terminally ill and he had only arranged care during work hours. Apparently the manager said that they would figure something out, but an HR employee told him he needed to be on call 24/7, and he wound up being fired that same day. (The employee was a cryptographer for a defense contractor so it’s entirely possible that there would be urgent situations happening outside normal hours and a work-from-home arrangement wouldn’t meet security standards.) He’s suing for gender discrimination on the ground that the company didn’t grant him the flexibility to be a caregiver for his family because he’s a man.

    My first thought was that something doesn’t add up with the mismatched expectations of hours. Either the company misrepresented the hours required in the pre-employment process, the employee agreed to hours that he couldn’t actually work, or it wasn’t really a 24/7 job and the company said that as an excuse to fire him. If the miscommunication happened on the part of the company, that’s absolutely despicable…but if it was the employee, I just don’t think you can show up to your first day of work and significantly change the terms of your employment and expect to keep your job. It would have been a kindness if they had tried to work with him, but I don’t think it’s owed to someone on their first day of work, when there are still other candidates that can be called in, and existing employees with their own families to care for that would have to pick up the slack, in the same way it might be to a long-term employee. The timing is tragic, but in a lot of ways that can’t be blamed on the employer (i.e. that he didn’t have insurance).

    Based on the article comments and people I’ve spoken to about it, though, my opinion seems to be in the minority and most think that the company was completely in the wrong and fired him only to avoid paying for her insurance. That’s possible, but I just don’t see enough info to feel comfortable choosing a side. I’m curious what you guys think.

    1. CM*

      I think there’s important context missing from your description. He said that his wife had only weeks left to live. In other words, it’s not like he knew all along that he wouldn’t be able to meet hours expectations and was setting new terms of employment going forward. He said that for a month or two, he’d need to work a normal 40-hour week. (And indeed, his wife died two months later.)

      1. fposte*

        He did know all along in the hiring process, though, and the insurance was to get his wife treatment that was a shot at remission, so the finite timeline wasn’t a done deal. So I agree with INTP that one side didn’t tell the other something during the hiring process.

        I suspect it’s that the guy didn’t mention this limitation, and I don’t blame him, but that’s also why the company was so mad about it. I think the company was massively stupid, but that doesn’t mean I think they’re completely in the wrong, either.

    2. Taylor Swift*

      Hmm. I don’t know that there’s one party to blame here. It sounds like a crappy situation all around. I agree with your reading of the situation and I don’t think the company is evil or anything, and if they’re one of the majority of fairly normal employers, I really doubt that paying for the wife’s insurance factored into their decision making.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      In a lot of jobs, you’re not immediately eligible for insurance, so that explanation doesn’t make much sense to me.

      I think he made a mistake filing it as a gender discrimination suit. There is no indication that the company would have allowed a brand new female employee to work an altered schedule.

      It sounds like there was a lack of communication up front about the situation/requirements of the job. Either the employer didn’t stress the need to be available 24/7 or the employee didn’t ask for necessary schedule accommodations.

      1. fposte*

        But it sounds like in this job he *was* eligible for insurance immediately, and that’s why he wanted it. What other jobs do doesn’t really matter.

        I think this is a situation where the blame falls outside of the two players. Guy wanted health insurance for a very sick wife; that’s reasonable. Work wanted the employee to provide what he was hired for and not to pay him when he wasn’t working; that’s reasonable. In a better system, guy wouldn’t have needed to pledge to work 60+ hours a week to get treatment for his wife in the first place.

    4. LCL*

      I am not a lawyer, don’t have any expertise in employment law.
      I think the company fired him because they didn’t want to deal with his issues. From a practical perspective, brand new employees with no leave and extreme demands on that leave are a pain in the ass. But decent people deal with this and try to find a way around the issues, because life happens.
      The discrimination argument is novel to me, but I think it’s worth a shot.
      I hope he wins his suit and is awarded some money.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I hope he wins, too. But I am thinking he only has a 50/50 shot at this one.

        It’s a bfd taking care of a dying spouse. My husband had 67 doctors appointment in 13 weeks. Our medical system knows how to make people run around and run around. He had so many appointments that were for paper work only, there were other appointments that could have been doubled up but instead we had to go twice.

        The inefficiency of our system is incredibly huge. I can see why the guy did what he did. Not saying it’s right, but he hit a level of desperation that no one should ever have to deal with.

  142. MsMaryMary*

    We all got new titles at my office, in an effort to standardize titles across the organization. Everyone in my role is a consultant, everyone in the role above me is a senior consultant. For the folks is my role, it looks like we got promoted or maybe made a lateral move. Several people in the role above mine were previously senior vice presidents or executive vice presidents and they are PISSED. I understand why they’re unhappy, but since the only thing that seemed to qualify someone to be a vice president was to be a man who’d worked in the industry for at least 10 years, I’m also amused.

    This is the second time in my career a organizational title change has made it seem like I got promoted or made a change when I really did nothing. Last time some of my responsibilities changed too, this time my job description is exactly the same. Has this happened to anyone else? Were you pleased, upset, or neutral?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Things like that seem to happen here a lot, but none affected me. The one that really pissed off people here are that if they are a degreed engineer but never took their licensing exams (EIT then PE), they can’t call themselves engineer or have it on their business card. There are people here who have 10 yrs experience and are like a level 4 engineer in the job classification system, who now cannot be titled engineer.

      1. Uncivil Engineer*

        I would LOVE for my organization to do this with engineering titles. As a licensed engineer, I get very annoyed at my organization’s insistence on continuing to hire unlicensed engineers. In civil engineering, this means they can’t sign any construction plans… which is most of what we do… which means all the big responsibility/liability for signing plans get shifted to us PEs.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          I absolutely agree with you, but the unlicensed people still weren’t happy! I’m a licensed ME at an EPC company. I have an EE on my current job that I am PM on who is from the state the project is in (got his degree there in 2008, currently lives there), but doesn’t have his license. WTH? I don’t get it if you work in an industry that needs it.

          However, I’ve worked here for 12 years and it’s new so I can see why people were blindsided.

    2. Clever Name*

      Ugh. That sucks for the people “demoted” on paper. I think it’s one of the reasons why my small company has been so resistant to having titles. The management structure is very flat. We’re finally getting titles that make sense, because it was starting to look really silly to people outside the company. Like one of our higher ups, who now has the title of Principal, was signing his emails with “geologist” even though he did complex negotiations with legal implications between landowners and state agencies.

  143. New Remote Manager*

    Hello All!

    I was hoping to get some advice regarding a recurring issue at my workplace. A bit of background: we are a small medical office and I am the most senior staff member. The practice has had high-turnover, for good reason. After one of our newest employees quit without notice, the doctor (and owner of the practice) asked me to fill the shoes of the Office Manager until the departments could be reconfigured. I work remotely, so while I wasn’t 100% convinced of my efficacy as an Office Manager, I agreed. The other staff member is quite new and works in the office full-time. I will call her Jane.

    Jane has been with our practice for a few months and has begun to suffer the consequences of our boss’ severe procrastination. For example, when another office requests patient documents, it will take the doctor months to review and authorize the records to send. Meanwhile, Jane receives call after call from disgruntled offices asking about these records. She does her best to address their concerns without throwing our boss under the bus. However, this is one of the most stressful and frustrating things about her job (I know because I was once in her shoes).

    Jane recently sent me an email about this (we communicate largely via email due to our time difference) and asked if there is anything else she can do to expedite these requests. She explained that she understands why they are not our employer’s top priority, but is having a hard time dealing with the escalating phone calls from the requesting offices.

    I let Jane know I would touch base with our boss about this. However, I’m unsure about the best way to communicate her/our concerns to him. I’ve attempted to address this issue with him in the past prior to Jane’s arrival, obviously to no avail. Does anyone have experience with talking to their boss about the issues their behavior is causing for other staff members?

    I greatly appreciate any words of advice! Thank you!

      1. New Remote Manager*

        Thank you! I knew there would be something related to my situation already on the site!

    2. Manders*

      Unfortunately, I never had any luck getting the doctor I worked for to prioritize this kind of thing without my input. What worked was coming up with a system that would put the highest priority items in front of my boss’s face, repeatedly, weeks or months before they needed to be done. That meant printing out a color-coded task list organized by due date (usually a date a few weeks ahead of the actual point that it would have been a crisis for the task to go undone) or putting the physical records on the boss’s desk with a note about exactly what needed to be done–busy doctors, in my experience, are not usually on top of their email.

      In the end, though, I ended up leaving that office in part because I don’t enjoy that kind of managing up. You need a particular sort of personality to simultaneously enforce due dates and not get personally flustered when they’re blown for reasons that aren’t your fault.

      1. New Remote Manager*

        Yes, that’s very similar to what I was doing while I was physically in the office. We’ve had a Top 3 system: giving him the 3 highest priority things to do in a day (chart notes always being one of them). Unfortunately, he’d always hand the work back to me undone. This doctor has repeatedly called himself the “weakest link” and we’ve tried different systems to push him to get paperwork done in a more timely manner. It’s been a struggle throughout my time there and I honestly don’t foresee his habits changing. I’m hoping to make my coworker’s load a bit easier to bear, but I too am on my way out!

        Thanks for your feedback!

        1. Manders*

          Oh, yikes! That could cause some serious issues with your patients if he’s leaving chart notes undone and not caring about it. To be honest, if there’s another doctor at the office or anyone who functions as a supervisor to this guy, I’d talk to them about this, because it sounds like this isn’t just a staff annoyance but a major business problem.

          And if he’s the one at the top of the pyramid… yeah, I’d be job hunting too, and I don’t think there’s much you can do to fix this for Jane. Best of luck to both of you!

          1. New Remote Manager*

            The doctor is, unfortunately, the very top of the pyramid. While he eventually completes chart notes, the long delay has and still does cause serious issues. This is truly one of the biggest reasons I’ll be leaving in the near future. I appreciate your input!!

  144. peachie*

    Eek, sorry to post twice. I’ve been thinking about this all week and wanted to get a feel from y’all: If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed/behind at work, do you have trouble distinguishing how much of that is because of procrastination/poor time management/etc versus how much it’s caused by actually having too many responsibilities?

    This is a wall I’m running up against a lot lately, and I’m having a hard time feeling out what’s normal and reasonable to expect.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      So, I want to push back a little bit against the idea that those are two separate things! I think we often procrastinate when we have too much to handle, either in quantity or diversity of responsibilities. Most people really can’t just work nonstop through the day without breaks, staring off into space, etc., and we all have different balances we need to strike between executing, thinking, and nothing.

      There are a few different things that can be happening when we procrastinate. Sometimes it’s overwhelming and we don’t know where to start. Sometimes it’s the “start up costs” (e.g. you have to find the instructions, then open six documents, then open a persnickety program, etc.) that make it hard to move forward. Sometimes it’s a skill gap, and your organizational systems aren’t yet on the level of your work. Sometimes it’s boredom, dissatisfaction, or a few weeks of not so good sleep or eating. If you can better pinpoint the feelings you’re having as you’re procrastinating, that might help you diagnose the issue.

    2. Clever Name*

      I am going through this same thing!! On one hand, I probably do overcommit, but on the other hand, I have a tendency to procrastinate and get distracted. I also find myself in a cycle of working like crazy for a few weeks because I may miss a deadline, then when I’m done and my workload is less, I feel like I slack off. But I’m not positive it’s actually slacking off; I’m just not working at a furious pace so anything short of that feels like slacking. :/

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Sometimes I can bank off of other people. If my predecessors was overwhelmed, that would be a clue. If my peers are overwhelmed or my boss, those would be more clues.

      Sometimes I can take a given task. I know that doing it once takes 15 minutes. I look at the pile, I have to do it 24 times. So I know that pile will take me 15 times 24 or 360 minutes meaning 6 hours. Now I have task A will be 6 hours. Then I move on to tasks B, C and D and rough out a time estimate.

      I have one on going task to clean out old files. My boss tries to estimate how long it will take. This cannot be done because sometimes ONE file takes me several days. On a good day I can get through maybe 3 or 4 files. Most days are not good days. I have eight drawers of files. Can’t do the math on that one.

      I do know this. If I spend time thinking about how much work I have, it slows me right down.
      My best tip is to make a list at night before you go home. Know where you will start in the morning.
      My next best tip is to take something that has been on the agenda for a long time and work on it each week. I usually do this after lunch, late afternoon. My rationale is that I have done most of what I can do today, by this point people will call back or email tomorrow. I am free to work on a back burner project even if it is for just a half hour. This gives me some sense of accomplishment. Then I write tomorrow’s start up list and I go home.

  145. Batshua*

    I’m doomed.

    My boss wants us to meet with my union rep because I screwed up my leave.

    I can’t reach my union rep. I emailed him 11 days ago, and he’s offline. I heard he’s on leave.

    My boss says that we’re going to meet next week whether he’s there or not.

    AAAH.

      1. Batshua*

        No answer at any of the 3 extensions. I’m going to leave a message at the only extension with voicemail, and call the national general inquiry number.

        1. Batshua*

          NOT DOOMED!

          I called the national Member Concerns number instead, and it took 2 transfers, but I got routed to the person who handles my organization’s employees, “John”. Apparently nobody has been able to find my union rep and this isn’t the first call about it this week.

          “John” will be out in our area Monday morning anyway, which I think is gonna save my glutes. I don’t have any disciplinary actions on record, and he thinks that even with my struggle to be super-timely, it’s going to be no big deal.

          (I am getting better at being on time. I was here EARLY today! I was also early on the snow day. I haven’t been technically late in some time, although they want us READY by 8, so that’s a bear.)

          1. Union Rep*

            So glad to hear you managed to get ahold of a Rep for this meeting and that his assessment is that this is a surmountable problem. You should not attend that meeting without a Rep (or, at minimum, a Shop Steward). I’ve been wondering how you are doing since your post on this issue a couple of weeks ago.

            Congrats on your success with the timeliness struggle. It’s seriously not easy for non-morning people to be up so early and it sounds like you’ve made major progress in a short time. Yay for you!

      2. LizB*

        Yeah, I feel like the union would be more than willing to send someone else. Isn’t that half the point of unions, to be there to support their members in conversations with management?

    2. Dr. KMnO4*

      IANAL, nor a union rep, but I have a feeling your union rep won’t like it if your boss has a serious meeting with you without your rep present. Is there a handbook, or a contract or something you can look at? I’m sure there are contracts that stipulate that super-serious-bad-news conversations can’t take place unless the union employee has representation. Maybe your workplace is similar. I hope you are not doomed. I wish you the best of luck with this.

    3. Creag an Tuire*

      A competent union should have someone to handle your issue while your usual rep is on leave. Did you e-mail the rep directly or contact your union hall? If you haven’t done the latter do so now.

      1. Batshua*

        I don’t even know how to contact my union hall, but maybe the general inquiry number will be helpful.

        1. LCL*

          Yes, contact your union. They will have alternates. Our labor agreement has contract language that requires representation if there is any discipline involved, or if the findings of the meeting could be used for discipline.

          1. Batshua*

            Ostensibly there are union delegates, but danged if I know how to contact one, since my phone calls seem for naught. Thank goodness that I live so close to the national office (a couple hours away), such that “John” can easily come out and see us. I feel markedly less terrified now.

  146. Letters*

    I posted in another open thread and got some great book recommendations, so I figured I would try again — does anyone have recommendations on out of the box thinking?

    This is a style of thinking that’s VERY natural for me; I tend to look at problems and come up with several ways to solve them, some of them unusual. For my wife, it’s very difficult. If she’s given a problem, she returns to original instructions or past history to see how she has solved it before — if it’s a new or unique problem, she grows flustered and has great difficulty approaching it. It’s very difficult for me to describe HOW I come up with multiple/unique solutions since that’s simply the way I have always been, so I’m having trouble in coaching her on thinking creatively.

    Any tips / book recs out there for others who might have encountered this?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Interesting query. I’ll be interested to see what you get. I am probably more like your wife.
      Can one teach out-of-the-box thinking or is that an innate ability, for the most part?

      1. Letters*

        It’s definitely an interesting question — and one that had never really occurred to me! It’s kind of interesting in that regard; she used to think people who claimed to be tone deaf weren’t real, that it was just a matter of time and effort for people to understand or differentiate music.

        And then, of course, she met me. She constantly laments over the fact that I have a great voice /as long as I’m singing alone/ .. because I cannot for the life of me match tone when I’m singing with or to something. I’ve tried to learn, and she’s watched me struggle with it enough to finally come to grips with the fact that some people just don’t “have” it!

        1. SophieChotek*

          I have to admit I probably have always assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that out-of-the-box thinking is somewhat more innate versus learned. Some people like order and tried-and-true-methods so they probably are uncomfortable with those out-of-the-box-ideas that come (seem to) come from nowhere. And their preference on tried-and-true-ways is probably part of their personality. But maybe some books or coaching can, as Ultraviolet wrote, help them identify reasons why they feel like they can’t do out-of-the-box thinking, or what initials barriers they set up for themselves that immediately makes them default to “old ways” or saying “no, not possible” whereas if one stretched a little a different way might exist. But then it might be like your analogy of music…some people will never be great singers — they might want to be, they might be willing to get private lessons and put the time in and practice — but they’ll never be great singers, they just literally don’t have the vocal chords/lung capacity they need — at best they’ll be technically correct and improved as much as they can. So likewise someone who doesn’t think out of the box can learn techniques and methods to think more out of the box and push back against innate barriers/obstacles, but “brilliant” insights and 20 ideas all appearing simultaneously inter head just won’t happen. Then can instead list the 5 “obvious” answers then methodically push themselves past that, using techniques…
          I don’t know. I am just speculating here.

    2. Hazel Asperg*

      I read ‘Brain Training’ by Tony Buzan which had some good ideas and techniques for finding new ways to approach unfamiliar problems.

      However, I do still struggle with a new task when I am not sure of my parameters. My brain kind of goes, “Well, the options include: literally everything in the world!” and I just can’t find ways to narrow it down from there. I tend to try to avoid it as part of my job, as I know it’s not one of my strengths.

      1. Letters*

        Thanks! I’ll look into it. What she’s worried is that it’s limiting her job possibilities — since this is something that tends to crop up everywhere, not just in her job. I really wish I could give her some of mine!

    3. Ultraviolet*

      It sounds like it might help her to develop some skills at identifying which parts of new problems are like things she’s seen before and reducing problems to their most basic parts. Do you think that approaching things that way would help her? (I am sort of influenced here by remembering math and physics coursework exercises, where developing that kind of ability is crucial. But I can’t figure out how to translate that into something more actionable for your wife.)

      Also, this is a total guess, but is there any chance that part of her difficulty with this comes from some kind of concern about making mistakes, or starting down the wrong path and then having to begin again, or otherwise wanting to make sure everything is perfect from start to finish? If so, combatting that tendency directly might be the most helpful thing for her to do.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I am not so sure that this is about teaching her how to think of the box.

      Her solution might be getting herself to relax enough so she can think the new problem through.

      Remind her about the importance of self-talk. If she is telling herself defeating things she is more apt to end up defeated. Tell her to encourage herself, “Yes, I can figure out something here.”

      Also encourage her to think about how there is cross over learning. This is stupid but when I was trying to caulk my bathroom, I thought about my attempts at cake decorating and holding that bag just so and making the lines of frosting go where I wanted them to go. In another silly example, I had to prune some evergreen shrubs. I had to make sure the tops came out flat. I thought about dusting flat tables. I thought about holding the pruning sheers parallel to the flat table top. The shrubs came out fine. Notice how in these examples I used familiar stuff to coax me through something less familiar.

      And also encourage her that because she wants this ability, she will probably get it at some point. Once she gets it, the learning curve is over and she’s claimed it as her own. This isn’t something you pick up in a day or a week or even a year. The more of it she does the better she will get at it.

  147. Lynne879*

    Is there ever an appropriate situation to ask a coworker how much they get paid?

    I work part-time at a retail store with a very small staff (7 people). I am part time & my coworker, Allan, is full time. For about a year, if not longer, Allan has complained to his coworkers (including me) that he gets “paid nothing” working for our employer. He backs this up saying that he is basically living off credit cards & has said that he has actually lost weight from working at his current job because he doesn’t have enough money to buy himself more food to eat.

    I don’t know how much my coworkers get paid & I always assumed that my full-time coworkers got paid more than me… but Allan is not the only one with money problems. In fact, all of my coworkers either have money problems and/or are financially supported by someone else, such as a spouse or a parent (I still live with my parents & have only worked part time jobs) & don’t seem able to appear to live on their own with just working at their full-time retail job.

    In a situation where I suspect that my coworkers are being underpaid, is it ok to ask them how much they get paid?

    1. Temperance*

      What do you plan to do with the information? Typically, retail is not known for paying well, so I’m not surprised that your colleagues are struggling. I probably wouldn’t ask unless I had a specific reason.

      1. SophieChotek*

        I agree – retail never pays well so when I worked FT in retail, I made less than $19,000/year, with tips
        (I was FT and made about $8.50/hr at the coffee shop where I work. Supposedly tips were supposed to make up for it, but I average about $1/hr in tips. It took me almost 5 years to get up to $8.50 hr since my yearly raise was between 10 and 20 cents an hour. Some years, when managers changed, they didn’t give us raises because they started the “clock” over again on their watch. At least in my experience, the FT and PT tended to get paid about the same at the coffee shop — seniority and being supervisor was what made the difference in pay. My shift supervisors made a $1 or $1.50 more an hour than me.

    2. fposte*

      Well, first, do you have any reason to think their hourly rate is different from yours? Would full-time on your hourly rate be a tight squeeze?

      I don’t see a huge reason for you to know this information, so I’m not sure if I’d ask, but if you did, I’d go for
      “Hey, full-timers–as a part-timer I get paid $400 per hour, and I’m thinking about the advantages of going full-time some day. Would you be willing to give me ball-park on the hourly rate for FT?” Disclosing your own pay rate makes it fairer, and if it turns out you are disproportionately highly paid you’re doing a good deed as well as snooping.

      1. fposte*

        Should make it clear I’m snoopy and I don’t think it’s the end of the world, but I also don’t think we’re entitled to know all the things we’d like to.

      2. SophieChotek*

        That’s good language.

        Or you could just say (if you’re willing to disclose your general ballpark expenses), I need to make X a month or X a week. If I switch to FT would I make at least that?

    3. Letters*

      I’m really torn on this one. On the one hand, I feel like we as a society should be freer with this situation — but on the other hand, we are really judgemental about how other people spend their money. I make a good wage for my industry but still struggle paycheck to paycheck due to family-related medical expenses that I’m certainly not willing to go into with my coworkers. So I’d be afraid to bring up my wages, because to me the medical expenses are private — but in their heads, the equation is going to be “That’s more than *I* make, if Letters isn’t doing well it’s probably because she’s irresponsible.”

      So I guess I’d say that you’re free to ask — delicately — but if your coworkers don’t want to discuss it with you, they’re free not to do so!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      As a general rule of thumb, retailers don’t like employees comparing rates of pay. Erroneously, they will use that as an excuse to fire people.

      I vote no do not ask them. It buys you nothing and it could cause you problems. If you confront the boss he will probably shrug it off. This is because he is only making $3 an hour more than you, IF he works a 40 hour week, which he probably does not.

      Retail is famous for how poorly it treats people. It’s a safe bet to think that it’s a given the people you work with do not make enough money to support basic necessities. Suggest he apply for SNAP or seek a second job.

  148. Doe-eyed*

    Is there any way to upward train a manager? Our new direct supervisor was trying to help me write a new job description and suggested I put in a screenshot of a report that I routinely do so “HR would know what it looks like”. I’ve never seen someone so out of touch with professional norms.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      “Boss…..no. Hell no.”

      Mmmm….scratch that.

      1. Doe-eyed*

        Like, she asks questions that I just don’t even know how to answer. I say I track productivity and classes (our folks have to do a certain # per semester) and she wants to know why you’d track that. Uh. To make sure people aren’t canceling all their classes? To make sure someone isn’t only teaching 2 students per section? I mean why does anyone track anything?

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          In all seriousness, I’d just say, “Actually, boss, having written a few of these things before, that’s probably not going to help them.”

          And is she an academic? I’ve noticed that some department chairs can lead the field on soil microbiology or N-space topology or whatever, but have absolutely no understanding of management or administration or whatever.

  149. J-me*

    I’ve long loved the phrase “bitch eating crackers” that I sometimes see on AAM. Anyway, this is just a random fun Friday thing, but are there any Buffy fans here? I’m rewatching it, and I noticed that Season 4 Episode 2 (where Buffy’s roommate turns out to be a demon), is a perfect example of BEC.

    There’s toe nail clipping, public flossing, boiled egg rolling, Celine Dion playing… maybe it’s an episode to stay away from if you have BEC PTSD. ;)

    “She irons her jeans. She’s evil.”

    1. Nanc*

      I loved that episode! My cousin irons the tongues of her Ked’s sneakers. And yes, she’s a demon!

  150. Nichole*

    I really love this blog! I’ve learned a ton from it. I plan to continue to read it, but I was wondering if readers had recommendations for other work/life competency blogs I could add to my regular reading.

    Ones from the perspective of someone who does technical work would be pretty awesome, but not mandatory.

  151. AnotherAlison*

    You ever get incomplete personal-related emergency information at work and then your head is all messed up?

    My 12 y.o. went on a ski trip with my parents and sister/BIL. I just got text messages that my mom fell and likely broke her hip and may need to be hospitalized.

    Now I’m worried about my mom, plus I think I might have to help out somehow next week & don’t know how that affects work. I want to tell mgmt, but I got nothing.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I’d just run it up the flagpole as is. “Hey, boss, I just got word that my mother was injured skiing. Not sure yet how it might affect me, but she may need help next week, and I thought I’d let you know there’s a possibility I could have to take a day or two.”

      And sorry about your mom.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Thanks!

        Latest news I got was she might have a broken hip and femur. : (

        I did end up telling one of my senior coworkers the situation, even though he’s not my mgr, he’s part of the mgmt team in our dept. Everyone took off early today. Spring break+March madness+warm weather. . .

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Yikes. Yeah, the current crop of old people is something else. My dad surfs in Maui all summer and caught a board upside the back of the head, my mom wiped out skiing earlier this year and ended up sore and sporting a huge shiner from her goggle frame…..and they’re in their mid-60s! My grandparents were, like, ancient wrinkled things at that age, and Boomers seem to carry on like they’re 30.

          1. AnotherAlison*

            Your parents sound adventurous & tough. The bad part is my mom didn’t want to go. There’s a lot to unpack there, probably too far off topic for today, but yeah, sounds like my mom is going to need a lot of help in the near term, and they’re not retired yet (mid-60s, too, could retire).

  152. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    In yet another development, starting Monday I can no longer eat at my desk. It probably seems like a small thing, but since November the company has made the following changes:

    -switched my team from Exempt to non-exempt
    -also switched us from salaried to hourly with very limited opportunities for overtime
    -requires us to punch a time clock, including lunchbreaks
    -no longer allows us to work from home except in very rare cases
    -taken away our dress-down Fridays

    And now the lunch thing. I like eating at my desk because it’s quiet, whereas the lunchroom is a noisy zoo with not enough seating to accommodate all the people who now are required to eat there. I swear if it wasn’t winter I would eat in my car, but that weather’s a way off.

    I told my manager earlier this week that I feel like the company is slowly taking away everything enjoyable about my job. She is wonderful and hates these changes as much as we do, but there’s literally nothing she can do about it. I haven’t gone so far as to tell her that it’s making me want to look elsewhere for employment, but I’m getting close.

    1. Cookie D'Oh*

      All those changes sound like real morale busters. I like eating at my desk too. I can sit quietly by myself and catch up on AAM or other sites. I don’t blame you for wanting to look elsewhere. Management shouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people leave or changes like this.

    2. Manders*

      Ugh, that’s really frustrating.

      I was reading the other day about a psychological effect that makes people feel worse if a perk or a privilege is taken away than they would feel if they’d never had that thing in the first place. I’ve been trying to explain that to my own boss–she wants us to have more perks for morale but then she forgets or applies them unevenly, which ends up making people feel burned even though they would have been fine if they’d never heard of that perk. I don’t know how to combat that feeling, I just know that it’s real and totally normal.

      1. CS Rep by Day, Writer by Night*

        I actually used exact comparison with my boss a couple of days ago!

    4. Dreaming of summer*

      Oh, how awful. Unless people’s work is being impacted negatively by desk lunches, why? But why? At least, that’s how I react to stupid rules.

      1. CS Rep by Day, Writer by Night*

        Because now if we are punched out for lunch and someone comes by and starts talking about work we’ve immediately violated labor laws and the company will be sued for 10 billion dollars.

  153. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Late to this, but I have a friend at work who I often work with. We get on okay, but he often asks me to share snacks/lunch.

    I. Do. Not. Share. My mom was a complete control freak with food from 11/12 until I left home for good, to the point where I was putting every cent I got or made towards food for myself. Get caught, lie, get punished, have food confiscated, get sneakier, lather, rinse, repeat, until I was 18. I’ve been working on the issues due to this, but as of now, I can only share with my wife, sometimes, with my full knowledge and consent, and freak out and eat more than I should later, if someone takes my food without permission, or ignores my “no.”

    So I can’t share with him. But, I got a lot of my food as a teenager through a friend sharing with me, so I’m also sympathetic if he really is hungry. I don’t know what to do.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Say “actually, no, I really don’t like sharing my food.” No explanation, no apology, no padding.

      “But you let me have part of your sandwich last week!”

      “And I didn’t like the ask then, either. Please don’t ask. I don’t like sharing my food.”

      And don’t be sympathetic. You’re both employed. He can put on the big boy underoos and pack himself a lunch.

      1. Michele*

        Yep. There is a huge difference between a growing teenager who is being denied basic nutrition (god, that sounds horrible, and I am sorry you experienced that) and an employed adult who didn’t bring his lunch. Your friend needs to learn to respect the word “no”.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          And the correct response to “I didn’t bring a lunch” is “I’m ordering pizza, anybody want some.”

    2. Murphy*

      Snacks are a different story (like if you’re having chips and someone asks for one I think that’s OK, although it’s obviously your prerogative to share or not) but I don’t understand all these stories about people asking for other people’s lunch. Lunch! NO, you absolutely cannot have my meal, what the hell is wrong with you? (Also, I am pregnant, and I will kill anyone who keeps me from food. Full stop.)

      Is there a reason that he can’t get his own food? Are there any nearby vending machines or cafes? I’d just say, “Sorry, I’m hungry” or “I only brought enough for me” and if it’s really a reoccurring thing, ask him why he didn’t bring any food.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        The ‘sorry, I’m hungry’ or ‘I only brought enough for me’ kind of language just softens the message. “Nothing personal, but I don’t share food with anyone.” “Sharing food isn’t a thing for me.” Or even just, “Nope. I’m eating all of this.”

    3. Dr. KMnO4*

      You don’t have to share with him. The situation you went through when you were younger is awful. I can see how it has made you sympathetic if your coworker is hungry. But, there’s a difference, in that your coworker is an adult and there are resources available to him if he’s hungry that likely weren’t available to you when you were a teen. It was wonderful of your friend to help you out and share food with you, and I can see how reflecting on that situation may make you hesitate to not share your food now. At the end of the day, though, you don’t need to share food with him. And you don’t need to feel bad about not sharing food with him.*

      *I hope I don’t sound lecture-y, or rude. That certainly isn’t my intent. I just mean that you shouldn’t feel guilty about taking care of yourself and your needs first.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Don’t worry, I didn’t take it that way! And yes, I’m definitely grateful to my friend. She was an immigrant from a country with a super-strong hospitality tradition, so if there’s a person in your house and you don’t feed them, it’s really bad!

        To borrow a phrase from the author Firoozeh Dumas (my friend wasn’t Iranian like she is, but the culture was similar): “it can be an hour after you have just eaten an entire wildebeest, and an Iranian will still offer you food!”

    4. asteramella*

      One of my loved ones has similar food issues. For them it’s sometimes effective to joke-not-joke, “I have food aggression, please back away.” This metaphor may not work if your workplace doesn’t involve regular discussion of resource guarding behaviors in dogs though…

    5. Not So NewReader*

      There is nothing wrong with saying, “I do not have extra, sorry.”
      Or you could go for the long term, “I am not big on sharing food, please don’t ask me.”
      If you feel inclined you offer to loan a couple bucks for him to get a snack. Add, “But just this once. I run a very tight food budget so I will not be able to help you again.”

      My mother was food freaky also. Fortunately, I could get out of her sight and find stuff to eat. Like you, I never brought it home.

      It’s really easy to mix two stories here, kind of like adding 2 plus 2 and arriving at the answer of 5.397.
      It’s rude to ask for other people’s food. And that has no bearing on our past experiences. You are perfectly within your rights to say no, if you wish.

      However, thinking about your friend who helped you, did she know something was up? Did she have a clue how much she was helping you? I basically inhaled anything people gave me. Looking back on it I am sure they noticed and wondered why then just decided to make sure they had something for me to eat. You could suggest that you notice he is always wanting your food and tell him if he eats more protein that will help with grazing. Or you could just ask him why he wants your food.

  154. Liane*

    Since cover letters came up a lot in short answer today, here’s my testimony on “Yes Cover Letters Help!”
    I’ve mentioned in a couple open threads that a current employee at a local hospital encourage me to apply there, to the many jobs that might be a fit. (Hospital’s hiring managers are fine with people applying repeatedly through the online system.)
    At first I only uploaded my resume. Although the system allows including a cover letter (as first resume page), I didn’t bother. How much could I tailor it to a bunch of clerical/admin jobs in many departments? But finally, after getting only 1 interview, for a position I am overqualified for (but need any nontoxic job at this point), I decided it couldn’t hurt to add one. It’s not specific, but covers the 2 qualifications all the postings had in common. This is the whole letter:

    “[Employee] encouraged me to apply for [specific positions] at [Hospital] as it is both an excellent medical center and employer. I have over 8 years’ in-person customer service experience. In addition, as a former [Job Title], I am very familiar with medical terminology and HIPAA regulations.”

    Within a few days, I had one interview for a suitable position, and I should hear back very soon on it (This hospital keeps you updated) AND I have a second interview Monday for a similar position. I was upfront with the second hiring manager about the earlier interview and she is cool with that.

    TL;DR: Even if it’s not long and not too specific, a cover letter helps.

  155. Augusta Sugarbean*

    I really, really thought I was going to get a job offer this week. I interviewed last Friday and came out feeling so positive. My skills & interests were a match, I got a great vibe from the interview board, I was really feeling like this is it & it’s really my turn, especially because there were TWO positions open. But on Wednesday I got a big thumbs down. I was crushed. I’ve been looking nearly a year and there aren’t tons of jobs in this area that I’d be a good fit for. Now I’m just feeling like I can’t trust my instincts. And like I’m going to be stuck at this terrible, dysfunctional job forever. Just feeling so hopeless. At least I was off on Thursday and Friday and could just stay in and binge on Netflix. I was in no state to deal with all the BS at my current job.

    I’ve gotten interviews at most of the places I’m applying (mostly county government offices) but can’t get an offer. My husband was speculating that they have a policy of interviewing all veterans that meet minimum requirements. I’m wondering if I should try and email HR asking about that policy. Not as a specific response to the thumbs down but just as a general inquiry about their policy. I mean I’ll take every advantage I’m due but interviewing me solely because I’m a veteran just wastes everyone’s time. Can anyone share workplace policies regarding interviewing/hiring veterans?

    1. Dreaming of summer*

      At my state university, veterans are given extra consideration. They’re not guaranteed an interview, but the veteran status counts for something.

  156. emma2*

    I’m stuck in the contract, underpaid phase of my career. I have been actively job-searching for 1.5 years since I graduated (I did a combined Bachelors and Masters degree), but I’m not getting permanent gigs anywhere. I have been practicing/getting better at interviewing, but idk what it means when companies are willing to give me contracts based on my expertise (and give me good feedback on my work), but not want to hire me full-time or pay me the industry average. Maybe I’m unlikable? Unconfident? Non-strategic? Help!

    1. Lost in LA*

      I’m stuck there too…still. And I graduated 4.5 years ago :\

      I have gained a bit more confidence with the contracting-out-of-underpaid bit though. Generally I just tell them point-blank that I simply can’t do the work for that rate. Especially if it’s a genuine contract where you’ll need to acquire resources on your own for whatever they have hired your services for. But if it’s a regular job disguised as a contract, I’m still working on that too. Low pay is better than no pay, unless it costs you more in the long run (which it usually does).

      I wish I had better advice, but you’re not alone in the cycle!

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      Well, you’re not going to make industry average with no experience fresh out of school. Unless you mean industry average for someone fresh out of school. My company only does contract employment for entry level people. It sucks, and I’m sure it hurts our talent pool. But that’s what it is.

      1. emma2*

        Yes, I meant average for entry-level. I didn’t expect to be making a CEO’s wage fresh out of school. I’m comparing myself to other people my age/experience level who are in salaried positions with much higher wages, which is why I am freaking out about doing something wrong in my job search.

        I will soon be 2 years out of school, and experienced enough to be considered mid-level in my industry, while I still am being paid less than an entry-level salary. So weird.

    3. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Not alone! I’m on 4.5 years of contract work post-graduation, and 7 years of active job searching since in law school the hunt starts up as soon as you’ve got your first semester grades. If I knew an easy way out, believe me, I’d tell you (okay that’s not true – I’d start a business and make a zillion dollars). The boring truth that I’ve struggled to accept is that, assuming you’re not f-ing up your cover letters or interviews, it’s probably just that some job markets are more difficult than others. And in my case, realizing that I’ve been shooting myself in the foot by focusing too narrowly and not networking.

  157. Lost in LA*

    I’m a former regular follower/commenter but have just lurked for the past several months, here and there when I stick my nose in. I’ll be honest, the reason I backed off was that I felt there was a lot of disconnect between my experience and the advice and situations going on here. Personally, for myself, I just needed less “suck it up buttercup” and more connection with those who did know what I’ve been going through regarding employment. But I’ve been stuck in a cycle and would like to try here again for a fresh start/deliberate change.

    I’m trying really hard to break the Craigslist cycle. Two years ago, even one year ago, the LA craigslist was a veritable goldmine of opportunity. Spam abounded but it was pretty easy for me to find work this way. Now, it is obscene. I trust hardly any job ads. They’re getting too good. I’ve had one legitimate interview (surprise surprise they ghosted so I’m not counting on it, especially frustrating because it’s a team of maybe 7 people and they update their social media with current stuff several times a day…I know they have time to get back to me) amd then a few bait-and-switches from temp agencies, and several poor attemps at phishing.

    The problem is that I’d get sucked into it because, to no one’s surprise if they live in LA–is that so many people are completely irresponsible business owners and have no idea what they’re doing so companies close with no warning, layoffs happen because they didn’t budget or research properly, etc. And because I’d lose a job right as I got settled/back on my feet from the last job search and/or was just overwhelmed with work in general, I’d had no time to really network.

    Most Angelenos, native or transplanted, know well enough that Stuff Just Happens here and it’s not uncommon to see a ton of short job stints on a resume. But I don’t know what else I can do. I can’t afford the waiting game through more legitimate sources like LinkedIn and I can’t do temp agencies for a number of reasons. I can only juggle two jobs if they’re in the same neighborhood. I feel like I’m losing my professional identity and I’ll never actually get to do the things I want to. My network/references haven’t been much help. All of this is compounded by that I turned 30 recently and trying to keep the word “failure” out of my mind is a constant struggle.

    I’m sorry this is mostly whining; there is a point to this post. I’m trying to expand my network and find out what success people have had finding jobs in LA, or where there are legitimate sources better than the Craigslist cesspool. Because of commute/accessibility I am limited to certain areas. I want to find some place I can actually stick to for awhile and depend on. I have a ton of experience both in admin and entertainment but ideally would be able to combine the two (reception for a media company, for example).

    TYIA :)

    1. Manders*

      Does the entertainment industry have its own system for meetups/networking or its own job boards? The fact that the Craigslist offerings changed this much in just two years makes me think that the good jobs are still being posted somewhere, but were pushed off that particular website by the scammers and flakes.

      1. Lost in LA*

        honestly the problem is that I am often so broke that I can’t even afford the time to go to one, much less the expense. I spend so much of my time trying to find in-between gigs while working on serious applications. I want to network, but I literally can’t afford to (example: I have 34 cents until I get paid Wednesday, and all I’ll have left over after bills that I can’t defer is about $40).

    2. H.C.*

      Oh, I’ve done my fair share of gig-based jobs based off Craigslist offerings in LA (mostly foodservice / catering related), bummers that the jobs board is now mostly spam/questionable stuff.

      For entertainment related jobs, United Talent Agency (UTA) has a great Entertainment Jobs List with plenty of admin/assistant/receptionist/entry-level positions; see if you can sign onto that if possible.

      Also, did you go to college / trade school in Southern California? If so, their career center may have a job board for alumni to browse through – and those openings will tend to be more legit & career-oriented.

    3. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Oh man, that sounds rough! I’m afraid I’ve never lived in LA and my field doesn’t really use Craig’s List at all (except for the AG’s office, for some bizarre reason), so I don’t really have concrete advice other than to second what Manders said. I am currently ramping up a serious networking kick myself, having spent years relying on job board postings (though not CL) and neglecting those relationships which are just so, so important. I relate pretty hard to the “failure” struggle – I’m in my mid-30s and assumed I’d be established by now. Life just doesn’t take your plans into account sometimes. Good luck!

      1. Lost in LA*

        it’s definitely getting more difficult to stay focused. This is the first time in several years I’ve been actually, truly depressed over the struggle. I really want to get back into networking. Thank you for the comment, I feel a little less alone :)

    4. SL #2*

      So, I grew up here and am working here now, after a brief stint elsewhere in the state. I don’t get the impression that the Craigslist scene here is any worse than it is elsewhere in the country. In general, the companies that hire via Craigslist are less likely to be honest, reputable, etc. Start with industry-specific job boards, or even general job boards that aren’t Craigslist. Indeed, Monster, Idealist (for nonprofits) are all good places to start.

      Also, if I saw a bunch of short stints on someone’s resume, whether they’re in LA or relocating from elsewhere, that’s a flag for me, UNLESS it’s from working in the entertainment industry or if you’re in politics (especially on the campaigns side). Not necessarily a red flag, but something to take a second look at.

      I’m sorry this is happening to you and that you’re feeling stalled in your upward trajectory. But I don’t think it’s location-specific, I think it’s a string of bad luck that could happen to any one of us.

      1. Lost in LA*

        To give an example of just how bad the employers have been:

        7 months has been my longest stint in just over 2 years. I was laid off because they had to RIF (honestly I think it’s because I’d asked for a raise, but business had considerably dropped and they had seriously messed up a contract and got in Big Trouble so they still had to cut back). They haven’t refilled the positions they cut.

        The job I had before that was for a production. It was limited to begin with but expected to last 18+ months and establishing a new company as a platform to do more projects like the one I was hired for (extreme sports for charity type thing). Turns out the guy running the whole thing was a Howard Hughes type and one day just shut everything down because he wasn’t getting the results he wanted (which were physically impossible to achieve). We went home for Christmas and were all laid off New Years Day. That was about 4 months.

        Before that, a few stints with small biz and startups that oh, surprise surprise, realized they couldn’t actually afford to have anyone on staff. For awhile I was getting some really good part-time and short term personal assistance gigs (so I just leave that up as ongoing freelancing on my resume) and there was enough overlap that even though things were inconsistent, it averaged well enough in the end.

        The thing is that I’m often in a position that I can’t say no to an offer (I don’t remember the last time I had a comma in my checking account)…because I’m constantly left out to dry by a previous situation. And I am so tired of other peoples’ irresponsibility and dishonesty screwing me over. But I can’t afford to just break out on my own. I want to start consulting but that takes time, resources, and funding that I don’t have because jobs are so ridiculous. It’s a disgusting cycle where bad behavior is constantly rewarded.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Just pulling from my own life experience I realized I had to get more selective about what jobs I took. Do a background on each employer, find out what you can about them. I relied on me too much and I needed to talk with people more. I did not spend enough time checking out the employers, ironically, they checked my background pretty well.

          Do you have a friend who is a “got your back” type friend? This is a resource that you could possibly tap more often.
          How about your local library anything interesting going on there? (If it’s near you.)
          Do you have friends looking for work, maybe you could email them jobs and they could send you things that might be interesting to you?

  158. Michele*

    I need help finding clothes! Where I work has gotten very casual in the last couple years–to the point that VPs are wearing jeans. So all of my nicer clothes are out of style. I am going to a conference in a couple of weeks, and I want to look professional. I have a couple of basic skirts (a grey plaid pencil skirt and a black tulip skirt) and black heels, but I don’t have any tops to go with them. I have tried Banana Republic, JCrew, Ann Taylor, and White House/Black Market. Their tops are all either long sleeve (don’t want since I will be in a warm climate) or very inappropriate like off-the-shoulder, flowy things.

    The nearest decent mall is two hours away and I live in an area where people rarely dress up for work, so I would like to shop online. Any suggestions of stores is appreciated.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      I shop New York and Company almost exclusively for work attire. Sometimes their seasonal stuff isn’t great but their spring stuff is good this season.

    3. Cookie D'Oh*

      I like Macys. They have a pretty good selection online. I have a lot of printed knit shirts that are sleeveless. I wear them with a cardigan or knit jacket. You might also have luck with Kohls or JC Penny. Nordstrom is good too, but on the more expensive side. I think Nordstrom Rack is also online now. I’ve also gotten some printed tops at Target.

    4. Mrs. Fenris*

      Look at JCPenney’s website. Their Worthington career clothing is good quality, classic stuff and inexpensive. They have Liz Claiborne stuff too, which has always been one of my favorites.

    5. Is it Friday Yet?*

      I am not sure how dressed up you intend on getting, but I really like dresses from Lularoe. It is only sold by consultants (think Mary Kay), but you could check there website and maybe find one in your area? I always get compliments when I wear the Amelia dress to work.

    6. A Cataloger*

      eShakti

      I haven’t tried any of their shirts or skirts, but I get all of my dresses from them primarily because for a minimal fee they will custom sew it to your measurements, or change the neckline, sleeves, length (options depend on the item). They generally have lots of options but they change often, so if you see something you like you need to get it.

  159. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Also, I’m proud of myself! My niche field relies heavily on recruiting and headhunters, and I interviewed with one on Tuesday. They also fill permanent or long-term positions, so I was a little worried about being placed in a position where I couldn’t feel comfortable or be out at work. My wife usually deals with this by mentioning “my wife…” at some point during an interview, but I am usually too nervous to do that. So I sent the following thank you:

    Thank you for meeting with me today (and let [redacted] know that as well, since I’m interested in both types of opportunities). I especially appreciate the chance for higher paying and/or foreign language projects.

    That said, I hope that especially with longer-term work, that we both might also consider cultural fit in placing me. I am in a same-gender relationship, and am usually out at work. I would like to feel comfortable around my coworkers and be able to make small talk without having to censor myself.

    I have gotten along well with everyone I have worked with before; I just wanted to let you know that this is a consideration for me.

    Again, thank you for the meeting, and I hope to hear from you again soon! I believe I may be starting [redacted] on Thursday, and I will update you as to the timeline of projects to come.

    Do you guys think that was the right way to put it? I haven’t raised this issue before, but with increased hate lately and some stuff happening to me around the election, I wanted to make sure I can get to a good place.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      That seems reasonable to me? I’ve only met with a recruiter once myself and they were basically all, “yeah, can’t help, good luck!”, but I mostly just did it to get my dad off my back. Anyhow, I hope that something pans out for you!

    2. Temperance*

      This is kind of OT, but how do you make contact with legal recruiters?

      I think that the message that you sent is really lovely, and gets to the point well. I completely get where you’re coming from.

      1. MegaMoose, Esq*

        If you’re looking to be recruited to do document review, just update your LinkedIn to indicate that you’re doing doc review and they will come out of the G-D woodwork. I definitely don’t find it incredibly frustrating since I’m trying to get *out* of doc review.

        1. Temperance*

          I’ve done doc review and I’m okay with it, but I would love a regular, full-time legal job that doesn’t involve working with low-income clients. I’m so burned out with the impact that the change in administration has had on my line of work.

    3. MissGirl*

      This might be TMI at this point in the process. Way too much personal information at this stage. I would wait until an offer before going into this much about culture. I like your wife’s way of dropping it in. Congrats on the interview.

      1. TL -*

        I guess it depends on the culture. If you’re mostly interviewing in a notoriously socially conservative area, I’d bring it up to the recruiter (might rule out a lot of places.) If it’s in a very socially liberal area, I would find it odd, thought not necessarily negative.

  160. chickabiddy*

    Hi, open thread. I actually have two questions so I will be making two posts because I am greedy. I am a freelancer with three major clients. They add up to full-time or more most of the time. I have been working with Client #3 for a little more than a year. Work has been fairly consistent and we just wrapped up a project. He told me that he won’t need me for a while and that he will likely have more work for me at the end of May. This was a surprise since work has been pretty steady but not entirely unwelcome since Client #1 has more work than I can handle until the middle of next month and I also have work from Client #2. I *think* that Client #3 means it when he says that he plans to work with me again in May but (1) he’s rather opaque in general and I have a difficult time “reading” him, especially since we almost always email and do not actually talk, and (2) it’s freelance work and I know better than to count on maybes.

    I’m pretty sure that I would want to work with him again if he offers; however, I will hopefully be taking on some new work for the month or so between the time Client #1’s big project winds down and Client #3 calls me back and, well, since we’re both seeing other people, who knows what might happen?

    Anyhow, I know that it would be a really bad idea for me to harass an employer while waiting for a job offer, but given that we already have a relationship, what level of contact, if any, would be appropriate?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Well, you’re not waiting for a job offer. You’re offering a resource that you have a limited amount of, and you’re giving him the opportunity to purchase it. So I don’t think there’s anything wrong with poking him in late April with something along the lines of “I’m working on my schedule for April through June, you had mentioned more work coming at the end of May so let’s touch base on that when we can.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        My friend does carpentry work and this is what he does. If a person is an on-going business relationship, he will call and ask in this manner. “Hey, I am just figuring out my work schedule for x period and I was wondering if you had anything I needed to put on my schedule. I usually like to put my regular people on the my calendar first, before committing to any new projects.”

    2. Chickaletta*

      Have you considered asking him for a retainer? I think it would be appropriate to approach him with this suggestion, and probably your other two clients as well since they seem to require a lot of your time on a regular basis. This would protect both of you because it guarantees that you’ll be available when they need you, and it gives you financial incentive to keep your schedule open for them.

      I’m a freelancer myself, and although I haven’t ever been on a retainer for a client, your situation sounds like one where I would seriously look into it.

  161. chickabiddy*

    Office chairs. I work at home and obviously spend a lot of time in my chair. I am shortish and fat and pear-shaped and I cannot get comfortable in my current chair (I do not remember the brand but it’s mid-range office store stuff and nothing special). It seems that the problem is that my butt is big enough that it pushes me forward, which makes me slouch and does not provide good back support. I live in a small town and can get to Staples or Office Depot to test-sit but there’s nowhere near here where there might be a salesperson who actually knows ergonomics and fit. I don’t think I need a designated high-weight chair: even though I am round, I am short, so the total tonnage seems to be under the threshold. I wouldn’t necessarily object to a high-weight chair but my concern is that most of them seem to be geared to “big and tall” and I am not tall. Does anyone have any recommendations? I do not have a set budget — I am not exactly as comfortable financially as I would like to be, so cost is definitely a concern, but my body is hurting and I will be getting a decent-sized check soon so it does not have to be from the dollar store. I do not care what it looks like at all. Okay, that’s not completely true. I was looking at an “Extra Wide Woman’s Office Chair” and it comes in orange and I do not like that and I would care.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Have you tried a yoga ball? I alternate between one of those and standing (which I have really enjoyed but is not necessarily for everyone).

      1. The Other Dawn*

        I asked my doctor and my personal trainer about a yoga ball when I was having a sore lower back, and both of them told me it could make it worse unless I already had strong core muscles. They said it makes the core muscles work quite a bit to keep balanced on the ball. I tried it and couldn’t do it. But I know everyone’s different and it might help the OP.

      2. chickabiddy*

        I have tried a yoga ball and it is okay for short periods but I cannot stay comfortable for more than ~10 minutes at a time, if that, which is really not practical when I am working on long projects. I wish it would work, though, because I’m sure it would be better for me.

    2. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      I wouldn’t like orange either! I don’t have suggestions, but I’m also short and round (two less inches and I would be too short to drive unmodified- I don’t know if that’s due to food restrictions as a teenager, or just getting all the “short” genes- the women in my family are 4-5 inches taller, and my brother is 6’4″).

      So if you find a comfortable chair model, I hope you’ll post again! Good luck.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I have had an ergonomic consultation at work; they usually suggest other things rather than a new chair. Have you tried a footrest since you are short? If you had a footrest it might keep you from learning forward and slouching. I’ve read that optimum seated position is to sit slightly reclined so you are in better contact with the back support of the chair. If you’ve already tried a footrest or a lumbar support pillow and you’re sure it’s the chair, I’d look for ones that have a high back, adjustable height, adjustable armrests, and are able to recline/have tilt adjustment not just for the back but also the seat.

    4. Claudia M.*

      Office Depot has a WorkPro brand that is amazing.

      I am 5’6, short torso’d, round-bottomed. I have a WorkPro 7000 big & tall high back chair. About $300 dollars. Mesh back, memory foam wide seat. Steel frame.

      I would do anything for this chair, it is THAT amazing.

      It has a ton of adjustments, and is really hard to put together yourself. I’d recommend paying to have it done at the store (Office Depot offers it for $20 last I checked).

    5. Piano Girl*

      My husband is big. He needed a new chair, so we went to a local stationers/office supply store that my office does business with. We were able to talk one-on-one with a sales person, who was able to get my husband into a specialized chair that was fitted specifically to him. It has made all the difference!

  162. longtimelistenerfirsttimecaller*

    (Hi! I love this blog!)

    I’m curious if anyone has any updated thoughts on HireVue interviews. Everything I could find on the site was from ~2 years ago at the most current. I am deeply skeptical for a few reasons but will likely do it since, well, why not and the position could still be great (or this could be an indication of things to come.) Still, though – any thoughts? Anyone who has hired from these, anything you’ve liked or disliked?

    Thanks!

    1. MissGirl*

      I just did one two days ago. I think the company uses them as a pre-screening tool. They asked me 12 questions with most being video and a few technical questions.

  163. Argh!*

    Does anyone here work at a workplace that has metrics for punctuality & attendance? I have to evaluate someone on it and we don’t have a definition of what constitutes “satisfactory” vs. “unsatisfactory” in our employee handbooks or performance evaluation forms.

    1. Lost in LA*

      I was the queen of points systems for a long time. I got really good at evaluating attendance as a gray give-and-take through a system that was very black-and-white.

      What’s the sitch?

      1. Argh!*

        I have looked at a few online and under almost all of them I’d be giving out an unsatisfactory rating, and it wouldn’t be the first. But since we don’t have a specific standard, saying the performance measure is unsatisfactory is really saying that it’s unsatisfactory *to me.* If my report complains, my wishy-washy boss will cave and throw me under the bus (has happened before). So…. go ahead and stand my ground and hope that HR backs me up? Establish a standard just for my reports based on what works in other workplaces and make that the standard for a PIP? Or just continue putting up with lame excuses and having to do someone else’s work?

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I know that at my first full-time job, we were rated on it, and after spending a year not missing a single day of work, and coming in on evenings and weekends to perform a certain task because it made someone else’s workflow easier, I was told I wasn’t allowed to receive a 10/10 on attendance because “we can’t give anyone a perfect score, because it means there’s no room for improvement.” So don’t do that.

      2. Argh!*

        ARGH!!!!

        I have been told that about my evaluation categories, but our raises are tied to % of the total possible points, not the total of actual possible points. Some supervisors suck.

  164. Adjunct Gal*

    I want to apply for a non-art position at an art school, but I’m supposed to have knowledge of art/design principles anyway. I actually do have this knowledge, but not because I’ve formally studied it, but because I’m married to an artist/teacher and we talk about those principles ALL THE TIME. How the heck do I address that issue in my cover letter?

    1. Imaginary Number*

      Are there events you’ve been to with your husband or something concrete that you could give as an example outside of private conversations? I don’t think there’s any way to put down “I know about design because that’s what my husband does” without coming across as THAT wife. I’m in no way saying this would be my opinion of you, but I think a lot of people would immediately put you in the pot of “Spouses who think they’re awesome because of who they’re married to.”

      It’s the sort of thing that would be easy to bring up in a conversation during the interview: “That’s great that the school is expanding into X. (Insert something smart-sounding that shows you actually know what X is.)” However, it would be impossible to put in a resume, in my opinion.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Maybe you can sneak it into the cover letter somehow. Not “my husband told me this” but something about being excited to use your knowledge of art/design principles in this position.

  165. periwinkle*

    I’m already starting to feel a little survivor guilt. I had today scheduled as a vacation day well in advance due to an unmovable non-work commitment. Our whole team was asked to come in today for meetings but my boss let me keep my original plans and met with me yesterday morning instead. That meant I was one of the first – possibly the first – to learn my fate for our division layoffs (I’m safe). By the time I return to work on Monday, everyone will know their status for the 60-day WARN. We’re going to lose some great people just because of numbers. There will be no public announcement of who will be let go; some of those who get notices will talk about it, others will be very private. I couldn’t say anything on Thursday about my safe status because I thought it would be insensitive, but it would be even more insensitive next week when I might be chatting with someone who did get a notice. I don’t want to be a jerk, you know?

    And now, how do I talk about future projects with colleagues when I don’t know if they’re slated for layoff? I’d feel awful asking for help from someone who would rather spend their time wrapping up work and looking for a new job. I don’t think our specific team is losing a lot of people but we’re going to lose some. If you’ve been through layoffs with a 60-day WARN involved, how did you handle this/how do you wish your colleagues had handled this?

  166. Jillociraptor*

    I need some advice about timing when asking for a flexible schedule.

    I currently work a standard M-F, 9-5 schedule, but I’d like to either reduce my time to 80%, or work a 4-day, 10-hours per day schedule. This is permitted by my workplace, at the supervisor’s discretion. My previous boss left in January, and my current boss is an interim. We just posted the position for the permanent person, and likely will bring someone on around June 1.

    I’m wondering if it makes sense to start having this conversation with my interim manager now, or just wait until the new person is on board. My interim boss is a senior leader in my organization and will continue to work closely with the new boss, so there would reasonably be continuity there. If I should hold off til my boss is hired, how long do you think I need to wait after they start to raise the issue with them? It would be great to have this schedule hammered out starting in the summer, but it won’t cause any real issue to wait. Thanks for your advice!

    1. The Other Dawn*

      I’d say to ask the interim manager now, especially since it’s someone who is a senior leader. If it’s approved, then the information would just be passed on to the new manager. This assumes you’re not new at the company. If so then I’d wait until you’ve been there are least six months or more, unless there’s a pressing need of course.

      1. Jillociraptor*

        Thanks — nope, not new. I’ve been here for about two years and have had consistently solid performance so those general boxes are checked!

    3. Is it Friday Yet?*

      I agree with other commenters. I’d ask now. If you wait, I’d worry that the new manager wouldn’t feel comfortable making that decision so early on.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      This is super helpful, y’all. I’m glad I asked! I totally assumed the consensus would be to wait for the new boss, and was just looking for validation so I could write off my pipe dream of getting this handled, but I’m interested to see that wasn’t the case. I’ll bring it up with NowBoss at our check in next week.

  167. Euthanasia Sucks*

    I have a problem that is highly industry-specific but I’m hoping some management types can give some guidance.

    I work at an animal shelter in a “no kill” community. That means that animals are only euthanized for untreatable illness or behavioral issues that make them unsafe to place into a home (I know, the term is confusing, but it is what it is). Usually when we have to euthanize a pet that happens before it is offered for adoption but sometimes an animal has been in the adoption area for a while. Dogs in particular can become “kennel crazy” and lose their ability to self-control. It sucks and we try hard to prevent this but sometimes it happens and the dog is simply no longer safe to put into the community. So a few times a year we have a dog that has been in the adoption area for a while must be euthanized. The final euthanasia decision rests solely with our CEO but there are multiple sources (behavior, adoption, and senior management) that offer input.

    The problem is that since we don’t euthanize adoptable animals very often, it becomes a Very Big Deal when it does happen. The staff that work in the adoption area take it extremely hard and sometimes second guess their peers and themselves. We talk about euthanasia during onboarding and throughout the process, and periodically offer compassion fatigue training. Does anyone have other suggestions to help ease the pain for our staff before or after the euthanasia decision is made?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      This sounds so hard. I’m sure everyone in your workplace is there because they are passionate about animals and it must be so painful to go through this.

      I wonder if it might help to have some kind of ritual you do when you do have to put an animal down. I’m not sure what you would do, but perhaps something like everyone sharing one story about the animal, or everyone gets to spend a few minutes before the animal is put down doing something the animal really likes (giving him treats, or sunshine or whatever it is that makes him happy).

      It doesn’t sound like there is really questioning of the decision, just struggling with the fact that it’s something no one wants to have happen. Perhaps also having some time for everyone to process together and share their feelings would also be helpful. If your CEO or senior leadership could help set the expectation that it is okay to have those big icky feelings at work, I think that could help everyone grieve.

      Basically what I’m suggesting is creating some kind of standard way to process these difficult moments so that people don’t have to feel so adrift.

      1. Euthanasia Sucks*

        We’re lucky in our industry that feelings are OK. Our operations director always says she wants people to have feelings because that means they care. It is definitely an emotional experience and you’re right, we’re in the business of saving animals so it’s really hard when it just can’t be done. Compounding the issue, I think, is that Adoptions tends to be an entry-level position at any shelter so staff in that area are usually young and relatively inexperienced.

        In some cases there have been people questioning the decision, which is what prompted my question. Just this week someone resigned over a euthanasia decision, which is heartbreaking all the way around. She felt we could/should have done more to help the dog.

        But I like your suggestion to take time to grieve, and make it part of the process. I definitely think that’s something we could do better.

    2. Lost in LA*

      The only thing I can think of is to see if there is a counselor who would be willing to volunteer or discount a couple of hours to the shelter when those rare decisions are made? I used to work in aquatics and state code required so many hours budgeted for trauma counseling in case a drowning or other major lifesaving incident occurred. Once, we had to do CPR on a girl–who survived–and even though it was successful it was still traumatic and we were all on edge for a month. The counselor helped a lot because the entire responding team went in as a group and we had a chance to process it.

      I think the compassion fatigue training is helpful, but specific rare incidents like the one you mentioned can really stick out and even with regular training, people still can’t really help what gets under their skin.

      In any case, extra hugs for the whole team. It takes unbelievable strength to work for a rescue or shelter!

      1. Euthanasia Sucks*

        Love the idea to ask for volunteer grief counselors. I’m sure we have contacts who could help with that.

        Thanks for the hugs! Luckily we save a lot more lives than we lose and we’re getting better all the time.

    3. Hilorious*

      First off, I’m so sorry, this must be terribly difficult.

      I don’t know if you already do this, and it might not be feasible given the nuances of the subject matter, but do you have set “criteria” for how this decision is made? I’ve found sharing criteria for decision making, making it transparent, can go a long way towards people second-guessing. For example, “We had 2 separate vets look at her file, and both stated that any treatment plan would have resulted in more trauma for this animal than euthanasia” might be easier to swallow than “It was a difficult decision but it had to be made”.

      1. Euthanasia Sucks*

        We do, but honestly I’m not sure how clearly it’s communicated to the front-line staff. Good call, we’ll check into that.

  168. Job hunting is my job*

    I’m recently back in the US (Colorado) after living abroad for a decade. I feel like I’m so behind on job hunting here. I have ample experience in my field- art gallery admin and exhibition planning- but few personal connections. Any tips on fine art specific job posting sites would be greatly appreciated

    1. Chickaletta*

      If you’re open to moving south a bit, you could literally walk around Santa Fe or Taos for a day handing out your resume to galleries and probably have a few interviews by the end of the week. I don’t know of any art gallery websites, but since the art world is a tightly-knit community just one or two connections can open up lots of doors. I would check out your local arts calendar for openings, attend them, and start networking – meet the gallery owners and chat with the salespeople to learn about galleries in the area and see if they know who might be hiring. If they get a good impression of you, they just might be willing to recommend you to other galleries who need a good employee. Good luck!

  169. Anxa*

    So, there’s some good news for me. I live in a capitol city in a very busy, job-packed part of the country, yet my actual city is a bit cut off from the other major cities in the area. COL here is very high and there really aren’t a lot of science jobs near me; also, our only universities are non-traditional so there are extremely limited research opportunities.

    Well, our transit authority just opened a new bus line to the city (1 hour away, lot’s of research universities). Only, the bus is prohibitively expensive ($10 a day).

    I’ve already interned for 6 months unpaid in a lab. I have other unpaid internships and volunteer experiences in other fields, (but there are a lot of common threads). I know I haven’t really paid my dues from an employers’ standpoint, but from my end I feel like I can’t keep paying to commute to work for free. I have references from my last internship so I think I can get a slot for next semester, but I’m not sure how to fund it. Does anyone know if there are any programs or anything? Has anyone ever had any success with commuter tax breaks as a non-employee? FWIW I’m well below the poverty line and would probably count as officially underemployed.

    Ideally what I really need is an entry-level job, but I’m not sure how I can get that without building up a local network (I moved to this region recently). I have never once gotten a callback over research jobs. Temp agencies also will not call me back with anything.

    1. Overeducated*

      I wonder if some kind of semi funded volunteer or fellowship program would be a better step for you than an unpaid internship – Americorps, Student Conservation Association, or something along those lines. They might not be exactly what you’re looking for, and have specific application cycles, but would take pressure off financially. Are there any organizations like that that partner with government labs in your area?

      1. Anxa*

        There aren’t any government labs in my area that are accessible with my current transportation situation.

        I don’t qualify for any of the NIH fellowships because I’m too long out of school and am not accepted into a graduate degree program.

        I AM considering going to graduate school, but I don’t really feel like it’s the right time for me. I’m not sure what I want to go for, but even a grad student stipend would probably be more than my current salary, and then I could theoretically adjunct later (I tutor professionally and I can’t advance with a B.S.).

        So far I’ve only seen AmeriCorps in K12 education or environmental education (a field that seems to rely disproportionately on low-paid part time employees), and I’m really not sure it’s the best match for me yet. On the one hand, I’d love to do it. On the other, I’ve done AmeriCorps before, and I’m not sure I’ll be receiving the proper training for something like that. Also, I do care a lot about environmental science and even studied environmental health, but I’m definitely more interested in data analytics and wet bench chem than field work and conservation. Plus my previous lab experience was in genome editing and I don’t see that happening with AmeriCorps. I will look into SCA, though! Thank you!

        I think you’re right, though, and that I should keep considering things like AmeriCorps (while it’s still an option!).

        I kind of with the unemployment office would help with this sort of thing. There are so many job training programs and I seem to fall through the cracks at every turn, and yet I feel if I could just spend a solid year without having to worry about the cost of volunteering and training, I’d be in much better shape!

        1. overeducated*

          Yeah, I honestly don’t have a great idea what the programs are in different fields…I just happen to know a lot of environmental educators, you nailed it. I am not sure if there are programs like that for what you do. It would be nice if there were.

    2. Manders*

      I think low-income bus ticket programs tend to be handled by your state or county, so your best bet may just be googling variations on “Reduced fare bus pass + your area” or calling the department that handles the bus line you’re trying to take.

  170. Imaginary Number*

    I work in a very technical field and only about 10-15% of my coworkers are women. My company has been the most female-friendly environment I’ve ever worked in (my previous career was the Army) and I’ve seen no real instances of discrimination.

    However, several female friends and I have noticed a trend: women are getting directed to grow in operational roles rather than deep technical and technical leadership roles. For example, if there’s a special project to take on, such as organizing a forum or other event, it’s disproportionately women that get tasked with them. Don’t get me wrong, these special projects can be great because they often have a ton of upward visibility with higher level executives, but they can be a distraction from building technical competence.

    It also seems to tie into the sort of roles that senior people in our organization move into: there are almost no women in senior technical roles but there are a disproportionate number of women (with technical backgrounds) managing in operations.

    Have any of you seen this? How do you effectively push back on the uneven distribution of these kinds of projects? Especially when they’re being presented as “we hand picked you for this opportunity” vs. “we needed someone to do this and you’re the girl.” These really are great opportunities for someone who wants to move up in company leadership, but not so much for someone who wants to grow as a technical expert.

    1. Mockingjay*

      “Wow, thanks for thinking of me, but I have a full plate with [current technical work] and my skill set doesn’t line up with an operational role. Have you considered Bob?

      You might be able to deflect such offers by preemptively addressing your goals. Ask to meet with your supervisor about career advancement. Express your interest in pursuing higher-level technical roles. You want to be the SME in X field. Ask about training or certs.

      The idea is to redirect the boss’s thinking so it aligns with your goals. If you don’t tell her what you want career-wise, how will she know?

  171. New Window*

    First: I got into my top choice for grad school! I am excited but trying to keep it under wraps during work hours.

    This leads to a question, and a couple searches through the archives didn’t seem to point to previous discussion: How should I handle a raise when I know I won’t be at this job for very long afterwards?

    I will have to quit my job before the school year starts (tbh I cannot wait for my last day, whenever that ends up being). Because my workplace is dysfunctional, it is not safe to give my boss any kind of notice until MAX three weeks before I want to quit, mid-July at the latest.

    For about a couple months, my boss has been commenting on giving me a raise “soon.” Not sure when or how certain this would be, but in the past this kind of talk was followed by a raise within a few months. I won’t expect it til it actually happens, but what is typically done when a boss wants to give a raise but you know that you’ll be leaving soon? Any scripts/ideas for how to handle any subtle or not-so-subtle accusations from a boss, particularly one not know for being reasonable?

    1. Imaginary Number*

      I wouldn’t worry about it at all, especially because you don’t even know if/when this raise would happen. A raise isn’t like quitting right after being sent to a super-expensive conference overseas. That’s just extra money that they’re … not going to be paying you.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      Take it without any qualms. Things could change, you might end up staying at the job, and at the very least, the worst that could happen is that they’ve got a little more budgeted for the position that gives them better negotiating power for the next person!

    3. Collie*

      Agreed with the two above. I didn’t make an argument for a raise around the time I finished my master’s degree last year at my annual review (I was about a week short of finishing the program and there was no way I wasn’t going to finish with an excellent GPA) thinking I’d be out by the end of the summer and it was in bad faith for me to request more. I got a COL raise of 3%, but looking back, I really should have fought for more. I’m still at the job ten months later.

      That’s not to say your plans will fall through (it’s unlikely they will), but you never know what life will throw at you! Take it, and feel no guilt.

  172. Overeducated*

    I am at home with a sick kid today, but he was more direly ill with my husband yesterday and seems to be getting back to normal now (we couldn’t send him to day care with the 24 hour rule regardless), so it sort of feels like a long weekend. Which makes me feel guilty because I’ve only been at my job 6 months, and I teleworked Tuesday because of the storm even though my workplace opened late and about 1/3 of the staff went in. My boss is fine with it, and my grandboss is way too busy to notice or care, but I hope the stricter great – grand boss doesn’t think I am playing hooky.

    On another note, I feel really worried about my family’s future with the new budget proposal. My husband is a scientist, I am in a field related to environmental and cultural resources, and we are both in the postdoc stage of our careers (so short term, soft $ positions). If there is a huge contraction of federal dollars for both grants and government projects, we are BOTH out of luck because in our fields it doesn’t matter whether your employer is public, private, or nonprofit, they are all tied together and will all be impacted. If plan A dries up, so do plans B, C, and D, plus the competition for jobs gets much worse. My field still hasn’t really recovered from the last recession.

    At this point we’re both just looking for anything stable, but if we have to move for his job, I’ll be ending mine over a year early and seriously burning a bridge, plus I’ll look like a job hopper. If we prioritize me finishing my 2 year position, there might not BE any more permanent jobs for either of us by that point. Not sure what to do besides get a time machine and not study science.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      As another scientist, you have my sympathy. I lucked into doing environmental consulting, and my clients won’t be affected by the budget contraction, but it’s really rough, and a lot of my friends are feeling extraordinarily nervous right now.

      One point to keep in mind: the budget proposal from the WH was vague, rough, and unworkable. That’s not what the budget will look like, it was a statement of priorities. I do not expect that government science will take that much of a hit. But I do expect it to take a serious hit.

      I would not worry about looking like a job hopper. I’d make it clear to your current employer that you’re leaving because grants and funding have evaporated, if and when it comes to that. And I’d work it into an interview with a new employer. But anybody working with scientists these days knows that we’re in a really tough spot right now, and is not going to judge too harshly for a move of necessity.

      1. overeducated*

        I think we are probably in different parts of more or less the same field, then. After a couple informational interviews last year, I don’t think I could get into contract firms without starting as a field tech (can’t afford day care working seasonally for $15/hr) or having 20 years of experience, publications, and contacts to be a rare externally hired PI (give me 18 more years….). I am curious if you have any advice on finding in-between roles that aren’t dependent on federal funding, and grateful for any ideas! I know contracting isn’t the same as consulting but am less familiar with the second in resource management.

        I hope you are right about the budget. As for job hopping, if I leave for a new position it’s not so bad, if I leave because my husband gets a permanent offer and we have to move without me having anything lined up I can see that harming my career more. We were going to wait until my grant was up to move but with recent developments I think we can’t assume there will be tons of choices a year from now.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          So I’m not on the research side of things anymore – I do contract environmental compliance support work for a large DoD branch we’ve all heard of, mostly NEPA but essentially anything that comes my way, like stormwater plans, solid waste, whatever. Obviously it’s dependent on Federal funding, but the DoD isn’t going to be hurting whatever the budget looks like, and the laws are on the books. So I’m cautiously optimistic. If you’re interested in that at all, I’d start sniffing around some of the well-known contractors – CH2M Hill, AECOM, Black and Veatch, Aleut, AGEISS, Leidos, TetraTech, and so on. It’s not field work or research work, but it’s something.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            On the flipside, I also know folks who’ve transitioned into teaching – both traditional K-12 classroom teaching and museums and so on. That’s another option, if you’re willing to consider it – I’d bet you’ve got enough math and science to qualify for either subject, and STEM teachers are in demand.

            1. overeducated*

              Thanks for the suggestions! I really appreciate them. I am ok with not being on the research side, and hope to take a little formal training in compliance this fall, so having some ideas where to start looking and even thinking about companies serving DoD is helpful. I do have museum experience and love it (though k-12 isn’t for me), but I know enough about the job market in that sector to not put too much hope there.

    2. Anxa*

      I hope this isn’t too far into politics, I just don’t know how to talk about work-related issues without mentioning there are serious concerns about these budget proposals.

      My SO is in environmental science and I’m in public health/genomics and it’s really, really hard to ignore the worry here. Also, I live in a huge research AND government state so there will be a huge ripple effect around here.

      Our families just do not get it and think PhD + science + media interviews + hard work + prestigious postdoc = bright future.

      1. overeducated*

        I am trying to keep it non-political by keeping ideology out of it and sticking to direct career impacts. I hope I’m not overstepping. But yes, I live in an area where both are huge employers too, and with me more on the environmental side and husband more on the medical side I’m very worried too.

        Makes me wish I had settled for a more stable job – of the two of us I’ve been more willing to compromise, but in my job search since graduating I valued things like better pay, more interesting work, and living in the same state as my husband instead of accepting a less attractive but more permanent job. Oops.

    3. Newby*

      My dad had to take a job when my mom was unable to move for another year. They did long distance for a year, which sucked (especially with kids involved), but they say it was worth it for the stability.

      1. overeducated*

        We could have done that a couple years ago, when the kid was a few months old, but didn’t. We both had jobs, this just would have allowed one of us to upgrade to permanent. I think it was the right decision at the time, especially given that it was in a rural area without many prospects for the other, but in retrospect I have to wonder.

        How old were you and your siblings at the time? Do you remember that period?

        1. Newby*

          I was in college at the time. My much younger sibling was in elementary school. I’m not trying to say that you should do that, just sharing what my parents did. It’s not a feasible option for everyone.

    4. RVA Cat*

      Clueless person not in science here, but I wonder how many in the field might expatriate?

      1. LadyKelvin*

        I mentioned this up-thread, but my husband and I are both at risk to lose our jobs (very different fields, same unifying political flash-point) and if that happens we will almost definitely have to leave the country to find jobs again. Which would not be pleasant seeing as we are in the middle of a move for my job as it is (literally, the movers picked up our stuff this morning).

    5. Dr. KMnO4*

      If your husband has to move can you do the split household thing for a time? I know you have a kid, and that being separate is awful (currently living apart from my husband because of work/school so I know how awful it is) but it may be better than burning bridges and not having a job. As a fellow scientist I empathize about the job situation and the uncertainty. Best wishes for the future!

  173. Hoorah*

    I had an applicant ghost on us when I contacted him about a job offer. He was over qualified so I can see why he’s not interested in the job. If he has a better offer elsewhere, that’s fine – good on him. But c’mon…if you’re a grown ass man you can spend 10 seconds writing an email to say you’re not interested. We would have pulled him our of consideration and wouldn’t have had to waste time trying to contact him.

    Really frustrating when someone ends up wasting more of your time because they can’t say no.

    1. Overeducated*

      Think of how it feels on the applicant side when most employers do that! You may not, but that’s probably how he’s used to being treated…I agree that it’s rude.

      1. Hoorah*

        Yeah, I don’t do that to candidates. I would understand if he were a 19 year old looking for a casual job. This is a man in his late 30s who has owned his own business and has experience hiring staff. So barring some emergency, I am unimpressed.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      Oof…are you sure he got the message and everything’s okay with him? Ghosting is a pretty weird behavior for someone when they’ve gotten an offer!

  174. honey cowl*

    Someone mentioned here in the thread about the assistant with the mirror that they found touching up makeup in public unprofessional and a breach of etiquette.

    This surprised me; I won’t do a full face, but I definitely put lipstick on around colleagues or at my desk with no care in the world. I work in a very male-dominated industry, and my female coworkers don’t wear lipstick (or much if any makeup at all) so there’s no one to gut-check. I understand it could make me look less serious to certain people, especially if the person who found it deeply unprofessional was more in the majority. I’m open to touchups only in the bathroom if that’s going to be better for my career long-term; it just shocked me that it was such a big deal to this person.

    What about y’all? Do you touch up your lipstick in at your desk? Do your coworkers? Are you horrified at the very thought?

    1. Hoorah*

      Lipstick is fine. People apply lip balm in public all the time without a thought. I also touch up my concealer at my desk only because I sit alone in my cubicle and no one can see me – but even that I wouldn’t do if I was within plain viewing sight of my colleagyes.

    2. Imaginary Number*

      I’ve never thought much about it. Honestly, I think it depends on what’s being touched up. Spending five minutes to redo eyeliner at a desk seems a bit unprofessional to me. But taking two seconds to reapply some lipstick after drinking coffee? I don’t personally do it but I also wouldn’t glance twice at another woman doing it.

      1. Emi.*

        I think lipstick is in a different social category from other makeup because it so often needs to be touched up after eating and drinking, so it’s less of a Now I’m Putting On Makeup kind of deal.

    3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Depends on how frequent it is. If it’s more than once an hour, I’d probably look askance at it.

    4. fposte*

      It depends on your workplace and your application regimen. If I’m in a closed office, I’ll do what I please. If I’m at an open workspace at my desk, I’d limit makeup to a quick swipe of lipstick that looks just like chapstick. If I’m at a meeting or business lunch, or if I’m carefully applying things to my lips and drawing the stick around the curves, that’s a bathroom thing.

    5. Lee*

      I’m a guy and I like looking in a tiny mirror on my desk, as food can easily get wedged between my teeth. I have floss that I use daily and a compact mirror makes it easier. I also have skin issues that involves redness of the facial cheeks, so I use special moisturizer to treat this.
      However, I’ve been told I look in mirrors way too much my whole life, but I think that’s more related to my gender than actual narcissistic tendencies (who wants to look unkempt when it can be so easily remedied by a quick touch-up?).

      1. fposte*

        I think you can look at your teeth in a private office, but it’s getting out of bounds for a shared non-bathroom space. Dental hygiene is a private, unsharable joy.

    6. emma2*

      I think the problem with the situation in that particular post is that she over did it, and from what I remember, she worked in a front-desk type situation where she would have to greet visitors/customers. Front desk position rules are quite different from just working at your desk rules.

      I work in an open office and reapply lip balm every now and again. It’s not a big deal. But when I used to work at a front-desk job, I worked under very strict rules where I couldn’t seem too distracted from my work. This meant no eating, doing personal stuff (like checking Facebook), touching up hair and makeup, etc. It’s all about presentation since you are the first thing people see when they walk into a building, contributing to an overall first impression of your company/organization.

    7. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I don’t wear lipstick, but I’ll rub Vaseline on my lips whenever they feel dry, coworkers be damned! Otherwise, I second fposte.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        I apply Vaseline to my lips about 10 times a day. I’ve never thought twice about it!

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            I was going to say “me too,” but I remembered it’s about 12% humidity, and saying your lips are dry in Colorado is like observing that the name of the day ends in Y. o_o

          2. fposte*

            I used to be a huge Vaseline user, and I have had so much better lip luck when I switched to the Cococare lip balm–my vague understanding is that the petroleum jelly protects from further dehydration but isn’t much of a moisturizer in its own right, and that could explain why the stuff with cocoa butter works better for me.

    8. animaniactoo*

      My rule of thumb is that if it takes longer than a minute, has an “ick” factor, would expose a part of me that my coworkers don’t normally see, or would involve a weird contortion, it doesn’t happen at my desk – or at least not when my coworkers are looking in my direction. Pretty much everything else is fine, so I would absolutely apply lipstick at my desk. But not mascara. If my hair is starting to fall, I’ll pull out the clip and put it back up again right away (I don’t need a mirror for this), but I won’t brush it or otherwise spend time on it.

    9. Newby*

      If it requires a mirror, I go to the bathroom to do it. If it doesn’t, I’ll do it at my desk. I apply chapstick at my desk if my lips feel dry, but lipstick I need a mirror for, so I only do it in the bathroom. I will use my compact mirror to see if I need to go fix my makeup.

  175. Turkletina*

    One thing I’m getting better at as my job search stretches on is knowing when I’ve done well in an interview. I killed a phone interview (A conference call, no less! I’m not usually very good at those) this week, and they wrote back yesterday (before they were even done with the phone interviews) to schedule an in-person interview. I’m not getting my hopes up too much because I don’t have a lot of background in this field. But I need to take my victories where I can get them at this point, and getting better at interviewing is definitely a victory.

  176. legalchef*

    I am on vacation (babymoon!!!) this week and half of next. I realized today that now that I am at a new job this is the first time in 8 years that I’ve been able to take a vacation wo getting inundated w emails to which I am expected to respond. I’ve gotten a few emails but they’ve all had me cc-ed as an FYI or are dept list emails, and no one is expecting me to do anything about them!! What a great feeling.

    A quick question though – my office was closed earlier this week for the snow. Last time we were closed an email was sent out how to deal w the snow day, but if you had a previously scheduled vacation day you had to use the vacation day. I’m assuming it will be the same this time as well. However, I’d love to not have to use my day and be able to apply it to my maternity leave. Any suggestions on how/if I can address this? My initial thought is to just leave it alone, because this is most definitely NOT a hill I want to die on, but I figured I’d check in with the commentariat just in case.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      If they explicitly said that if you had a previously scheduled vacation day you had to use the vacation day, I wouldn’t say anything, especially since you’re new. I’m sure everyone with a previously scheduled vacation day would rather not have to use the day, but it sounds like that’s the policy.

    2. em2mb*

      I’d send a quick, matter-of-fact email to confirm: “Is the policy still same as last time … ” without mentioning your maternity leave/reason for wanting to preserve the day. They’ll probably say yes, the policy is the same, but you might get lucky!

      (Oh, and congrats!)

      1. MegaMoose, Esq*

        I missed that the email was from the last snow day – I agree that a quick email like this would be good.

  177. anonderella*

    Happy Friday!!
    As part of my job, I enter business card info into our mail client; but I’m torn on the meaning of identifiers for different phone numbers.
    For instance, “cell/mobile” “business/office/main” and “fax” all make perfect sense to me. The one that I don’t understand is “direct”; “direct” is not even an option on our client. If one of the above (excluding “fax”) is missing, I usually just plug the “direct” number into that place. I have even seen all four on a card, and am totally not understanding what the “direct” number is indicating. Now, when there’s an 800-# or similar (and a “direct” #), for my industry this tends to point toward a regional office; in this case “direct” probably means their local office (maybe?). But sometimes there’s an 800-#, a business #, a cell #, AND a direct #… what to do with that? I think if it’s being called the “direct” #, it’s probably the fastest/most direct way to reach that person; I don’t want to not include it.

    So, is there a standard meaning behind the “direct” number (similar to “cell”, etc)? My google-ninja skills have been completely failing me on this – but feel free to link me to any sources you find, if you are able.
    Thanks!

    1. Qmatilda*

      In my world, Business/Office/Main number would ring the receptionist or my secretary and Direct rings through straight to my phone on my desk.

    2. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I’ve always assumed that “direct” means the phone that sits on the individual’s desk (or their personal assistant’s) and is answered only by that person (or their personal assistant). If there’s both an office number and a direct number, I would assume that the first goes to a receptionist and the second goes to the individual in question. I would definitely not think that direct ever means a local office.

      1. MegaMoose, Esq*

        Also, I am really surprised that your client doesn’t have this option, because I feel like this is 100% standard for many offices. I don’t think you are erring by subbing it in for “business/office/main” or “cell/mobile”. I would definitely never not include it, as it really should be the best way to get in touch with someone (that or cell, depending on your field and the time of day).

    3. NW Mossy*

      Every place I’ve ever worked, “direct” is meant to indicate a number that rings straight to a person’s desk, rather than a general office number that would route you through a receptionist or a string of menu options first. Many very small companies don’t have direct lines for their employees, so you just have a main number and whoever picks up transfers you.

    4. animaniactoo*

      I have a direct # – it means the call comes straight to my desk, it does not get routed through the receptionist, and you don’t have to call the main number and then dial an extension.

      For example:

      212-726-5555 x6567 means you go through the main switchboard and get the voice robot that says if you know the extension you’re trying to reach, you can dial it now, or be connected to a company directory or the receptionist.

      646-555-6567 means you get the phone on my desk.

    5. H.C.*

      Ditto to what others said, but I also noticed the If one of the above (excluding “fax”) is missing, I usually just plug the “direct” number into that place..

      Please don’t do that for the fax field; no one likes picking up their direct line to hear the fax beep prompts or screeches.

  178. The Other Dawn*

    UGH! I’m late! I totally forgot I had a question to ask today. I’ll post it here and then again in tomorrow’s free-for-all, since it’s both work and non-work related.

    I had my tummy tuck a couple weeks ago and I’m returning to the office on Monday. None of my current pants are comfortable. I’m swollen and have a mix of numbness and sensitivity. I can fit into my pants, but they just aren’t comfortable…Down There. My belly is pretty flat now so my pants press against the nether regions. I need to solve this problem by Monday so I plan to shop this weekend and don’t want to break the bank, as I won’t likely be wearing whatever I buy for much longer than maybe two to three months.

    I have two questions:

    1. I’d like to wear my skirts since I have a ton and they won’t press on me in weird spots, but regular-style pantyhose will be a problem due to the problem mentioned above. Any suggestions for pantyhose that are comfortable? Different types, brands? I’d feel weird about a garter belt at work since that’s usually associated with sexy lingerie these days, but will if I have to. (Note: I’m vehemently pro-pantyhose so I’m not willing to go without, even with a long skirt.)

    2. Pants: any suggestions for brands or stores that have comfy pants? I’m thinking drawstring or elastic waist and somewhat loose in front. Regular button and zipper waistbands might be uncomfortable for a while. I’m 5’11” and about a 14/16 right now, depending on cut. All my current pants are “skinny” style, so they’re not loose anywhere.

    I looked at Good Will before surgery, and there was nothing good there.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      If you absolutely must wear hose, how about going with knee-highs and a long skirt until your stomach feels better? I wear the really cheap ones you can get in boxes of ten for $5 and they never fall down. If you’re also worried about temperature/chafing, you could pair with bicycle shorts or yoga pants. This is pretty much my work uniform because I like to trick the universe into thinking I’m wearing hose, but super hate actually wearing hose.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        I own exactly one long skirt. I’m a shorter-skirt person, but I could buy a couple longer ones. But I didn’t think about knee highs with it. I think I actually have some. I also have a pair of knee high boots I could add to that. Thanks!

        1. MegaMoose, Esq*

          I should have mentioned boots! I’ve got a black pair and a brown pair that I wear quite regularly. Being a skirt person in the coldest metro area in the continental US requires much layering.

      2. Newby*

        I did knee highs with a long skirt when I had laproscopic surgery! It worked really well. I suggest looking at Ross and Burlington for cheap pants/skirts. Personally, I have really good luck with the Ross clearance rack. I’ve gotten a lot of pants and dresses for less than $10 each that are professional enough to wear to work.

      3. The IT Manager*

        Thigh highs. No garter belt, but better than being squishd by panty hose “down there”.

    2. Effie*

      Re: pantyhose. Would you be willing to wear stay-up thigh-highs (ie silicone band)? I wore those year-round when I lived in CA (it’s a bit chilly where I live now). I used to go to Nordstrom Rack and buy their $4 pairs (Nordstrom’s own brand) and they held up pretty well (each pair lasted me about 3 months before the first run).

      If not, Donna Karan’s “Sheer to Waist” option is good, no compression, although they are a bit thin: http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/donna-karan-the-nudes-sheer-to-waist-hosiery/4634276?cm_mmc=google-_-productads-_-Women%3AHosiery%3APantyhose_Nylons-_-522361_1&rkg_id=h-21d4e2c92b1502d5be95ea5c13421684_t-1489777786&adpos=1o1&creative=145518911443&device=c&network=g&gclid=CPTQiN6e3tICFZ5KDQodbL4Dcg

      and Commando is my favorite, absolutely no digging in and slipping down (caveat: less subtle colors, but you can’t go wrong with black, right?): http://shop.nordstrom.com/sr?contextualcategoryid=0&origin=keywordsearch&keyword=commando+tights

      Pants: I’m guessing you can’t wear yoga pants? The best non-dig waistband pants I own are these cotton yoga-style pants that I got from my dance studio. Plus, Onzie makes a really comfy water-safe lightweight pant: http://www.onzie.com/relaxed-fits/

      New York & Company has a great variety of pull-on professional pants: http://www.nyandcompany.com/search/?Ntp=1&Nty=1&Dy=1&Ntt=pull%20on%20pants

      And so does Nordstrom: http://shop.nordstrom.com/th/pull-on-pants

      Good luck!

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Nope, can’t really wear yoga pants. I’m non-customer-facing and we’ve gone to business casual, but I don’t think my boss would be OK with them. He’s very laid back, but I can see why he might not go for being that casual. And I’m OK with that; I’d feel weird wearing them to the office.

        OK, apparently I suck at searching clothing websites. Searching “pull-on pants” never occurred to me. My friend referred me to Nordstrom and I couldn’t find any of those pants I pulled up from your link. Thanks!

        Yes, I actually do have stay-up thigh highs and didn’t think about that.

        1. Newby*

          If you like yoga pants, do a search for “dressy yoga pants”. They might work for a laid back office, especially if it is temporary.

      2. Trix*

        Yes yes yes to Commando! Hands down the most comfortable, stay in place, no riding, no slipping, no digging tights I’ve ever worn in my life.

    3. Emi.*

      I’ve worn thigh-high stockings that have elastic cuffs with rubber lines inside, like on a strapless bra. The ones I bought were Hanes Silk Predictions (Kohls link in my name), and they stayed up quite well (until they wore out).

      If you go for a garter belt and don’t want it to look sexy, you could get hockey garters, which are plain, boring elastic. On the other hand, they’re bulkier than nice lady garters, so the clips might show through your skirt.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        I’m also a slip wearer, so garters might not show if I go that route. But I do have a few pairs of those thigh highs you mentioned so I’ll have to try that. Thanks! I totally forgot I had them.

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      J Jill has loose pants with elastic waistbands that are great for work. Look for the Wearever collection.

  179. Cat Ladies Rule*

    Are companies legally allowed to employ someone as a part-time worker (which means no benefits) and give the same person contractor work at the same time?

    This is happening to my husband, whose employer can’t afford him as a full-time employee but is giving him some contracting work on the side. They do pay a higher rate for the contracting work, so that aspect is alright. However, it sounds like they may have more contracting work coming up, and if it continues to build, he may end up working close to full-time hours without getting the benefits that the company’s policy gives to full-time workers, which seems…well, screwy.

    Is this another one of “yup, it’s legal” cases?

    1. fposte*

      Do you think he’s correctly classified as a contractor, or is he doing the same thing in the same place as he is when he’s paid as an employee?

      1. Cat Ladies Rule*

        As a contractor, he’s working on a project different from the one he works on as a part-time employee.

          1. Cat Ladies Rule*

            He has done contract work before, doing similar things (web development), but not for this company. I think they are just giving him a side project and telling him that he is a contractor for that project. It’s all kind of murky.

        2. Cat Ladies Rule*

          Oh, and he does work from home when he works on the contract project. He works in the office during his part-time work, so I guess that aspect would pull the setup closer to the “okay” zone…?

    2. Natalie*

      It’s very unlikely that this would fly for either the IRS or the department of labor. Is the contract work in the same field, or of a similar nature to his regular work?

      1. Cat Ladies Rule*

        When I thought about the setup, red flag went up in my head, too… The contract work is on a different project from his part-time work, but the substance of his work is really similar (web development).

        1. Natalie*

          SOOOOO unlikely to be considered okay. He’s an employee being given a different assignment. They should be paying him as an employee for all of the hours.

          1. Cat Ladies Rule*

            Thank you for this, Natalie! Health insurance and PTO would be really nice. I’ll see if he’s open to asking them about this.

    3. Pineapple Incident*

      Like the other respondents, I don’t like this at all. He should be being paid as an employee for all of this work, and the company should be willing to shoulder the cost if that means he’s at or above their requirement for full-time benefits. Like Alison has said before, I think he should come back at the organizers of this strange arrangement with something like “I just don’t want to put the company in the position of running afoul of federal regulations for contractors versus employees, so I’d like to see the rationale for this setup examined more carefully”

  180. PhillyRedhead*

    I emailed this question as well, but there’s no guarantee Alison will have time to answer it — I was notified yesterday that I’m being laid off just 8 months into my employment. I’m getting “wages in lieu of notice” plus 4 weeks’ pay as severance.

    As for PTO payout, the paperwork I got during my meeting with HR just says that, if the state requires it, they will pay it out. My state, Pennsylvania, doesn’t require it.

    Do you have a suggested script for requesting payout of PTO? I had planned to stay with the company for years, and until yesterday, had been working several 12-hour days a week since January in my role to help the company win new clients, and had just gotten a glowing annual review from my manager.

    I have 14 calendar days to sign the severance letter.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, wow; sorry about the knockback.

      I think as an 8-month employee who’s getting severance in a state that requires no payout of anything, you’re not likely to get PTO payout. Whether I would even ask or not would depend on my feeling about the severance and the company and how much PTO I had earned at that point; I sure wouldn’t go to the mat for it. But something along the lines of “I earned my x days of PTO in good faith; is there a possibility that those days could be paid out as part of the severance?” probably wouldn’t set your severance on fire.

      1. PhillyRedhead*

        Thanks for the reply! Do you think there’s a possibility that they’d pull the entire severance offer if I try to ask for it?

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          I’d think not. I’d make it a really low key request, even more so than fposte’s script, just: “I’ve accrued X hours of PTO since I started – is there any possibility those days could be paid out as part of the severance?”

  181. BBee*

    Etiquette question when it comes to recruiters. I had a recruiter reach out recently about a job that seemed potentially interesting. I asked for more detail, including the name of the client and job description. He sent both, and the client is someone I had worked with years ago and I hadn’t been a huge fan of their culture. I told the recruiter I would pass the job along to a few friends, but that it wasn’t a good fit for me personally. He asked why. I don’t mind the asking, since I probably would have done the same in that situation, but I wonder if I had done the right thing to tell him I’m not interested. I don’t really do the recruiter thing, so I never know what’s the done thing. Thanks!

    1. Friday interview*

      Maybe he wanted to know if it’s a problem with the company, or the role, or something else, to understand if in the future he could send you similar jobs, or jobs at the same company. If you don’t want to work with that client then you were right in telling him what you want.

  182. Emi.*

    Alison, I have a question about the site: When you first started writing, how did you get people to write in/how did people find you to write in? Did you start by soliciting letters? Did you ask people you know in real life? I read the AMA you did a while ago but I couldn’t really find an answer.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I wish I had a more satisfying answer to this. I didn’t actively/directly solicit letters, other than by calling the site “Ask a Manager” and making it clear people could write in with questions. (The first post was basically “here I am, ask away.”)

      In the beginning, I didn’t have any letters so I just wrote mini-rants on a topic, but the first letter arrived in the second month and then letters started coming in reliably enough to form the majority of content in month 4 or 5. You can actually see how it played out if you look at the archives from that first year:
      https://www.askamanager.org/archives/2007-posts

      But where did they come from? That I don’t know. I did participate in some blog carnivals at first (where a lots of bloggers would write on one theme and then they were all compiled in one list), which would have steered some readers here. But I think the biggest thing was that this was back in 2007, and so it was easier to get attention as a new site, maybe? But I still don’t really know why I thought people would find the site and submit letters. They did, but I don’t know why I counted on it happening.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Actually, I think I do know why I plunged ahead. I’d previously co-written a site on, um, bar etiquette and dating etiquette with a friend, and we had a popular “mailbag” section where people would submit letters for us to answer. It happened pretty organically then too (again, the benefits of earlier days of the internet) and so I think I just assumed I could do something similar with this, without thinking it through too seriously.

  183. Elizabeth West*

    Rock, Meet Hard Place: A Vignette

    My city: Shitty jobs.
    Big city: Better jobs.
    Me: :D
    Job in city: (probably) Sorry, you don’t live here yet. We’re ignoring you. *crickets*
    Rents: Sorry, you can’t move here without a job.
    Bank account: Sorry, I’m not full enough to support a move.
    Me: :'(
    Job listings in my city: Oh look, a job you would rock at and would like!
    Me: \0/ *sends resume and kick-ass cover letter*
    Job in my city: *crickets*
    Me: x_x

    Fin

    2. Hilorious*

      I don’t want to be -that person- who makes suggestions that are mind-numbingly obvious, but as someone who recently got a job in a city before she moved there, I thought I’d throw some ideas your way. Feel free to take with a grain of salt!

      – Networking, even through weak connections, has been enormously helpful. Sure, neighbor’s-friend’s-grad-school-mentor, I’d love to have a quick phone call with you about New City and how you got started there! Here’s what I’m looking for! This is especially helpful for finding the cultural norms for job postings in that city.

      – Does your cover letter address that you’re intending to move? I usually had a sentence about “I’m currently located in X, but am in the process of relocating to Y, and I would be available to start two weeks following a formal offer”.

      I will also note that I was in your boat and seriously considering throwing in the towel, and two weeks later (several months into a job search) I got an interview, and subsequently landed the job. There is hope!

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Good suggestions–I don’t know anyone to network with, but I will keep that in mind.

        And yes, I’m open about being willing to relocate, but that doesn’t seem to matter if I’m not actually in the process of moving or already there. There is no way I could do it in two weeks after an offer. Even St. Louis is ignoring me and that’s only three goddamn hours away.

        Maybe this is happening because in my written visualization of my future, I didn’t write it that way? (I know; it’s stupid, but that’s all I got.)

    3. Office Plant*

      Could you get a job that would let you transfer there? Even something outside of your industry and not challenging, something that you wouldn’t even put on your resume but would make the move possible. Like doing 10 hours a week at some big chain, or call center work. Just something that would give you A Job in New City.

      If it’s only 3 hours away, could you visit for a few days each month to volunteer in your field? I mean find a non-profit in Big City that interests you and offer them your skills. That can be a good way to network and get some local references, plus learn more about the area and see if you actually want to live there.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Well I really don’t want to live in St. Louis, actually, but it’s bigger than here. I already know where I want to live but I think I will have to get something here because I’m going to run out of UI soon. I doubt we’ll have extensions like we did before.

  184. Anxa*

    Science people:

    Last year I left a lab because my work schedule was being extended later into the afternoon and I would not be able to come in until later in the day, which would make me less helpful and more annoying (I needed people to let me into different rooms, especially after 5pm). Our original workaround would be to put me on a special project, but then that fell through. So I never really went back.

    Since then, the lab has had a number of really pretty cool publications. I can’t help but to feel really down, as I was there for 6 months and I know I contributed a lot to the day to day operations, but I missed out on some projects I would have loved to be a part of. I am really kicking myself for my timing.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Yeah, that’s a bummer. I’ve been there too. Not sure what else I can say – it’s always disappointing.

  185. Effie*

    I’m filing and I found that the last person who worked on these files put “F” between “G” and “H” and “L” before “G”.

    1. Amber Rose*

      We have filing issues too. Our office manager actually printed out the alphabet one a big piece of 11×17 paper and taped it over the filing cabinets.

      1. Emi.*

        The radio station I used to work at did this. In fact, there was a sign in the CD closet that said “A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z: Does this look familiar to you? It’s the alphabet, and it’s how you’re supposed to be filing CDs.”

    2. Natalie*

      When I was in college I worked at the library, and the head librarian (rather a character, long story) made everyone take a pretty extensive alphabetizing test. I thought it was rather silly until I got my first job and had to refile tons of “The Blah Blah Blah” that had been filed under T.

    3. Jillociraptor*

      In Last Person’s defense, I can’t explain it, but for some reason, I cannot alphabetize FGH without singing the alphabet song. Any other letters, it’s automatic, but FGH, dang, who knows.

  186. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

    So is anybody else winging it today? I’m not sure how this plant ecologist ended up writing an analysis of cultural resources impacts, but I’m pretty sure it’s 90% winged, and still sounds pretty good.

    1. Clever Name*

      Ha! I’m a biologist and an environmental scientist, but I also somehow ended up writing a section on cultural resources for a project.

      You’re in Denver, right? I wonder if we work in the same industry. I’m in environmental consulting, and I’m also in the Denver area.

  187. Furiosa*

    I’m volunteering with another department in my company, and a much older coworker there keeps calling me “kiddo.” I know it’s a term of endearment, but as a 26 year old who has worked for the company for 2 years, it’s kind of off-putting, and I’d like to bring it to her attention without being rude or seeming standoffish. I feel like I should just be straightforward, but I have issues with conflict. This might be a good opportunity to work on it though. What do you think?

    1. Chickaletta*

      Call them “grandma” in a joking way. Someone who calls adults “kiddo” probably has a light hearted sense of humor so you might have some leeway there. Plus, don’t be afraid of talking to them as an equal. If a 26 year old called you “kiddo”, what would you do? Probably joke back, right?

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      “Jane, please call me by my name. Thanks.”

      “Kiddo” is not a funny or appropriate nickname, IMHO. It bothers you, so speak up and get her to stop!

    3. Jillociraptor*

      It sounds like you have a decent rapport with this person, so I think you could be direct and say something like, “I really appreciate that we’ve developed a great working relationship, but I wanted to mention something you might not even notice. You often call me ‘kiddo’ at work, and since I’m among the youngest staff, I’m always very conscious of making sure I’m coming across as authoritative and professional, so I’d like to ask you to stop using that nickname and just call me by my name.”

      If you think they’d be a jerk about it, then there’s another approach. (Personally, I’d go with “It’s really odd how insistent you are about this. Are you able to call me by my name?”)

    4. Natalie*

      It really is okay to just say “I actually hate being called “kiddo”. Thanks!”

      People frequently try and shorten my name to Nat, which I despiiiiiiiiiise. So I’ve gotten a lot of practice at breezily rejecting that.

    5. Marisol*

      Start with a big, kitschy, warm smile. Then say. “Jane. You’re great, and I love working with you. Please don’t take this the wrong way, but being called “kiddo” at work makes me feel belittled. Can you not do that?”

      I find being a bit over-the-top and jokey about it diffuses tension, without undermining the point I’m trying to make. Hopefully I’ve conveyed it clearly enough in this written script.

    6. Woman of a Certain Age*

      Gee, no one has called me “young lady” since I was 45 or so. I kind of miss it.

  188. Maxine*

    I’m preparing to let go a new part time employee. It’s only 3 weeks since she started here, but it seems clear that I made an error in hiring, as her computer skills are not up to snuff and I’m leery of her attention to detail, and her personality doesn’t feel like a good mesh for our very small office. It’s not really her fault as these are all things I should have caught when I interviewed her, and she’s a very nice young lady with an infant, so I feel really cruddy about the strength of my feeling that she’s not the right person for us. I’m not sure if I’m asking for advice or venting, as this is the first time in 10+ years I’ve hired someone or had to let them go, much less both within the space of a month. Lessons learned for me, but it stinks for her.

  189. Elizabeth H.*

    I really want a job where I just use Excel all day and don’t have to answer questions and help people (in a customer-service type way) but instead can just work on projects. I like both numbers and text stuff (like databases, analyzing data, etc.) I’ve been working in higher education admin but want something that is more research based where I do not do any administrative assisting type stuff like attending to visitors, answering questions, reimbursement paperwork, stuff like that.
    I also really like tax and finance analysis type things. Any ideas as to what kind of job I would or could look for (besides analysis/research in higher ed – I have applied to one or two jobs like that but I am not really sure I want to stay in higher ed in general)? I am 29 and have 4 years of experience in my current field (interrupted by being in a PhD program for 2 years) and have a mid-level position right now.

    1. NW Mossy*

      Try looking for “business intelligence.” What you’re describing sounds a lot like what my cube neighbor does, and that’s his area. His title is Information Analyst, but we basically give him lots of databases, describe what kinds of questions we want to answer using that data, and he somehow abracadabras the info into existence through Excel-fu.

    2. Is it Friday Yet?*

      Your desired job sounds like my nightmare. I’m envious of how great you are with Excel.

  190. NW Mossy*

    This post exists solely to calm myself down! Just got a meeting invite from the hiring manager for a internal transfer I interviewed for earlier this week. Crossing my fingers and hoping that in 30 minutes I’ll find out that I got the job!

      1. NW Mossy*

        I guess it worked, because she made me an offer! Now, to figure out my transition plan!

  191. Lemon*

    If you like tax and finance analysis, you could look into doing financial analysis for your state or local government. I know where I live, at the county level they are fairly regularly hiring financial analysts.

    2. Elizabeth H.*

      Thanks, that’s actually something that has crossed my mind before! I really am interested in my local gov’t (like going to town meetings and stuff) and they have some recent initiatives like making their city data public as some cities have been doing recently. I should follow up on that again :)

  192. New Job- Time for Another*

    I just started a new job within the past two months. The pay is wonderful, but the work….not so much. It’s definitely in part my fault for not realizing the type of issues I’d be dealing with on a day-to-day basis, but I’m also surprised how others are not being held accountable which makes my job very difficult. It’s not the culture that was conveyed to me during the interview process. I can tell I don’t want to be in this position long-term and surprised by how much I dislike the work. I know there is never a magic number for how long you need to stay in a job but what do people think about starting to apply for other jobs? When you so start applying, I’m assuming I need to include my current job on my resume and just explain why it isn’t a good fit?

    1. fposte*

      The question overall depends on your history, but I wouldn’t put the current job on for another couple of months at least–the obstacle of explaining why you want to leave so soon is a a big enough one that you really don’t want to walk into it by choice.

      1. New Job- Time for Another*

        If it’s not on the resume thought, won’t they ask anyway since there will be a gap with my previous job and the jobs I’d be applying for?

        1. fposte*

          Maybe, or maybe not, and you can say that you were keeping yourself busy with a job that wasn’t a career focus. They’ll probably read it as retail or restaurant service.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      Ugh. Been there. I’m sorry.

      I would say start within your network if you can, because if you have an in, you can explain why you’re looking so soon before you even formally apply. Plus, since you need to make sure your next job is one you can stay at for a while — one short stay doesn’t kill your resume, but two and people start looking askance — if you have someone on the inside, you’ll have a better idea of what the new place will be like so you can make an educated choice.

      That’s pretty much how I did it — I shook the tree with people I knew. Unfortunately it took me a good six months before I finally landed something, so the stay did not end up being as short as I thought it would be by the end of that!

  193. Elise Stubbe*

    I want to get some experience with grant writing but of course, everyone hiring for grant writing wants … experience. So, I’m thinking maybe it’s a good idea to get a small course on it – are there any certifications in grant writing that are reputable?

    1. It happens*

      The foundation center is a great resource. They have grants writing courses in-person and online. Good luck

    2. Overeducated*

      I recommend trying to volunteer with a small nonprofit to help write a grant, or do something in support of one if you have no applicable experience (background research, proofreading, etc.). Lots of organizations don’t have the money to hire grant writers, so a dedicated volunteer can be the difference between applying for an extra small grant or not having the time, and it gives you something to put on your resume. (I did this and it was a great experience for me and the organization, but I do not currently work as a grant writer, though I do work a little with supporting funding proposals.)

  194. HelloItsMe*

    Ok, how can I get out of ridiculous question-and-answer session with people?

    I keep attracting this, and usually I just give up and walk away early on, but is there a way to stop this from happening altogether?

    This happens a lot of times a day with a lot of different people, work related and non-work related. Sometimes people get mad at me for not answering them when they didn’t even ask something that had anything to do with them.

    Like, I’ll ask my coworkers a simple question, like if the software was installed, and then it’ll turn into this whole thing where they have to know why I’m asking, and why don’t I do it this other way, and why don’t I just use this other software, and am I sure I want to use that software, and usually I just give up and say NEVER MIND because it’s just ridiculous! Or they’ll message me, “What’s up?” in a text and I’ll ignore it and they’ll be like, “I messaged you three times and you didn’t respond,” and I’m like, “You didn’t even ask me anything!”

    This literally has been happening all the time with lots of different people. Is there a way to get out of dumb conversations, without just avoiding everyone altogether?

    1. Sibley*

      Hello Me. I’m guessing you really don’t like chit chat? I don’t. Cause that sounds like my internal thoughts. If we’re in the same boat, I recommend you try to learn to deal with it. It does help, sometimes. The people who don’t know how to get to the point without 10 minutes of chit chat are forever annoying, but I haven’t figured how to avoid without becoming a hermit. Let me know if you do please.

    2. Marisol*

      Broadly speaking, I think your best bet is to get better at 1) reading conversational subtext, which will enable you to anticipate/understand the other person’s point of view better, and help you play an active part in steering the conversation in the direction you want it to go, and 2) setting boundaries in a polite way, which will help you get the results you want and not waste your time.

      In your two examples, the first one is something that also bugs me a lot–someone answers what they think is the subtext to your question, when in reality, you just wanted a factual, concrete answer. Or, it could also be that someone is having a power trip and not wanting to help you. What you can say depends on your relationship to the other person, but generally it is ok to interrupt them and say, “I’m just looking for the concrete answer to my question. Was x software installed? Do you know the answer to my question? That’s all I want to know.” It is a little confrontational, but if someone is jerking you around, then the confrontation is warranted. Go ahead and assert yourself. Just don’t yell or anything.

      In the second example, the other person was trying to engage you as a friend, and you chose “assert yourself” and get your needs for privacy/efficiency met by ignoring this person. This is pretty disrespectful. It was like someone saying “hi” to you in person and you walking on by without acknowledgement. This kind of thing can be hurtful and alienating to the person initiating contact. Next time, respond to the text politely, but if you don’t like to text as a general rule, or can’t chat right then, set that boundary in a nice way, “hey! I can’t chat right now. Let’s catch-up in person later.” In my opinion, deliberately ignoring someone is really mean.

      This sounds to me like you are framing the problem as being other people’s dumb conversations, when in fact, the problem is that you need to work on some social skills. We ALL need to work on our social skills in some way, and most people struggle in certain areas, so you are not alone in this. The good news is that it’s ultimately more empowering to work on things we can control–our own personal weak spots–than to blame the situation. There’s lots of books on the subject if you want to devote a little time to it.

      1. HelloItsMe*

        Those are good points. Thanks. I will keep that in mind.

        I think with both instances, they aren’t actively trolling me, but they’re bored and want me to entertain them or make them feel important. They’re not asking me anything urgent they need to know about. They’re just trying to keep me there.

        With point 2, I think other people have just ignored me when I was the one like “Hey what’s up,” because why shouldn’t they stop what they’re doing just because I’m bored, right? Especially if it’s multiple times a day and they literally don’t need anything or have anything to contribute. My friends don’t always respond for a few days and I assume they’re busy working. I don’t know why some people get mad if I don’t come up with things to say to entertain them with.

  195. Anon for This*

    Our office is supposed to have a admin or two per department to offer general support to the whole team. No one except the CEO has a dedicated assistant. One of the execs in my department has monopolized our admin for years. She manages his calendar, handles all his correspondence (because he doesn’t type, never learned to use a computer, and only answers email from his phone or ipad) and basically acts as his personal assistant. She gets him lunch, his non-work related board meetings, takes care of personal things like dinner reservations, etc.

    Last week our department head and the managing director met with the admin to discuss how she spends her time. We’re starting a reorg, so it makes total sense. This exec was livid. Mostly because the department head and managing director met with the admin “behind his back” (she told him as soon as the meeting was scheduled).

    The exec was complaining about all this to me today. He admitted he overreacted but “they were pissing on my territory.”

    SERIOUSLY. Your admin, who is acutally supposed to be the department admin, is your territory? A human woman, your coworker, is your territory? The people who are in charge of making sure the department runs smoothly peed on her by scheduling a meeting without consulting you? Seriously?

    1. Is it Friday Yet?*

      I’m trying to imagine what kind of office job you could have that wouldn’t require typing!!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Reality can be a real shock for some people.
      This story almost calls for popcorn.
      Will she become ticked off enough to quit?
      You will have to let us know.

  196. techlady25*

    In September I was offered a job (which is in the IT field dealing with finance as well). The job is literally the same exact job that I do now but at a different university. Same system, everything so it is easy to transition. They were definitely impressed with me when I had the interview because the skills they were looking for was very specialized and I had all the skills so I knew I had the job. The salary range for the job was between 40 – 80k and I love my current job and I wanted to make sure that I have enough money that would make me want to leave my current job so they offered me some money which was 6k more than I currently make ( 56k) but I wanted at least 12k more (62K) which I did ask and they declined it.

    It is now March and they still do not have the position filled therefore I was wondering what is the proper way to possibly ask HR if they have found more monies or willing to negotiate salary more. I wasn’t sure if I should just reapply for the position or actually speak to the HR professional that offered me the job in the first place.

    1. fposte*

      I would reach out to the HR person. A quick “still interested, if there’s any new possibility of a meeting of the minds on salary” kind of note.

  197. Pineapple Incident*

    Thanks to anyone who weighed in a couple weeks ago when I commented about getting over the feeling that I wasn’t settling into my new job quite right following not super pleasant experiences at ExJob.

    I felt it earlier this week actually- I realized I’ve kind of settled into my (not awesome, but worth it for the doubled pay) commute, and it feels normal. Yesterday I handled a work/personality issue with someone my team supports without freaking out internally or crying in my car after (which I did last Friday when the situation first arose), and I’m getting used to how I’ll need to manage my time here going forward. My boss is leveraging me and the other new person at my level to take care of logistics for an upcoming meeting of reps from several different interacting teams, and she and I have talked about how engaged we feel here. It’s really nice to have that sort of “come to Jesus” moment with yourself and know you can handle more responsibility; that feeling is exactly what I wanted when I started job searching even though I didn’t know it at the time.

    Thanks AAM community! It’s all because of you guys that I’m coming up on 2 months at newJob :)

    1. Hilorious*

      That’s amazing, congrats! It takes a while to get used to new stuff. Be gentle to yourself!

  198. Gracie*

    Don’t you love it when someone emails you and tells you to do something and so you do it and a while later they come rushing over to you, huffing and puffing and blow-your-house-down-angry, demanding to know why you did that.

    And you can print out that email and wave it in their face while laughing and dancing around them, reminding them how silly and over the top they are acting?

    Ok, so no laughing or dancing but I do take satisfaction in being able to burst that bubble and reflect that back onto them. It’s sad when one of the first things you learn is CYA. I do love my company but some of the vendors we work with are slime who wouldn’t hesitate to toss you under the bus for the slightest reason.

    1. Karen*

      I’ve had several boss’s that have done that, I do believe in karma. Not now, but it will come soon. I also love “return receipt” people are notorious for saying that they never received your e-mail. I feel for you on the “walk-up” approach, those are scary.

      1. Gracie*

        My boss is so notorious for telling us one thing and not remembering that we usually make her email instructions or sign off on something if it’s even slightly out of the ordinary.

        Just last week we had a pre-meeting meeting where I went over all the changes I was suggesting. She asked questions, got clarification and agreed with my choices. Then when I got up in the meeting and said my piece, she was the first to disagree. I was like wtf… 10 minutes ago you liked it all!

        I know part of the issue is that she doesn’t understand the details of what I do and that she’s flooded with work but really… And all her objections were things I had discussed in our pre-meeting

  199. Karen*

    Ok, I am really trying hard to be positive, and move away for negativity. HOWEVER!!! Please tell me if I am wrong for feeling the way I do right now!!!! I have been dealing with this Recruiter since the beginning of March. I’ve burned 1/2 a vacation day because I was supposed to meet her, only for her to respond to my work email address (that I don’t have outside access to), 45 minutes after our appointment time, that she could not meet because of training. UNACCEPTABLE!!! Why?? Because I emailed her a day in advance to confirm our meet time. I know she saw the email because I have return receipt. She responded, after the fact, “if you would like to meet, I am free all day.” Well, ma’am, I am not free! I came to work because I did not hear from you. Moving forward, we were supposed to meet the following Friday, from me emailing here on the 13th of her availability. Now she tells me that she is not allowed to work with me because I am in their system in another location, but she is happy to speak with me about a different position. “Crickets….” I’m confused, were never discussed a first position, and, if you can’t work with me, why would you talk to me about a different position when we never spoke about a first position! This is the second time that I’ve had issues with a staffing agency. The first one told me that maybe I would have better luck on my own…”crickets” wow really? I so did not see that one coming, I just asked her about Project Manager positions. Has anyone else had troubles with staffing agencies?

    1. Is it Friday Yet?*

      No. That’s ridiculous. I’d be ticked too. People who waste my time aggravate me. Do you have other options in your area? I like Robert Half.

      1. Karen*

        I’ve never tried Robert Half, but I will look into them. I am ready for growth, advancement, and leadership opportunities. I’ve been with my organization for 4 years and working on my 3rd boss. Plus moral is really low, and there are no opportunities for growth. I am looking to advance into middle management.

    2. Marisol*

      I don’t know your field. I’m an exec assistant, and there are a lot of mediocre agencies/recruiters out there in my field, and a few highly competent ones. These days I only work with my two faves, but I’ve worked with several over my career, and never had any one treat me that way. If they did, I’d drop them from my contacts and move on. This person has shown you her level of professionalism and what she can do for you–nothing. If you can afford to sever the tie, then I suggest you do the same. Maybe you can ask around for a referral to someone competent in your area?

  200. Gracie*

    Ok so just a funny thing that makes me giggle sometimes when it happens (a few days after maybe lol). I work with vendors. And invoices. Now they get their invoices from another source but sometimes they can contact me and I’ll be nice and send them a copy. This happened today but it’s not the first or even the tenth time and never the same person.

    Vendor emails asking me for a copy. I have a good relationship with the vendor so decide to be nice and get the copy and scan and send them (time consuming on my side) A few days pass and vendor emails me back saying they never received the copy and goes on about how that always happens to them and they don’t feel valued blah blah (also note that we charge $30 for additional copies and they try to circumvent by coming to me)

    I’m a little irritated but also feel bad because I know they are trying to play on my sympathies but I do need a good relationship with them. I’m about to resend the invoice when I notice something.

    Their pity-me-send-it-again email was a reply to the email I had sent with the invoice attached! They literally ignored the attachment and replied saying they didn’t get it. When I respond, they always say they didn’t see it… I laugh later about it.

  201. Unfamiliar with professional norms*

    I’m new to the professional world and looking for advice to navigate a potentially uncomfortable situation.

    In the near future, I will probably be starting at my first job out of grad school. The only jobs I have had so far are research assistant positions meant for students. I worked on one grant in undergrad and I currently work for a much larger grant in graduate school. As a result, I have developed a skillset that allowed me to apply to a “professional” non-student non-academia job. They have been very impressed with me during the interview phase and there is a very strong likelihood of getting an offer soon.

    The problem is that my current employer, Minerva, has me working on a research project that will continue past my start date at the new job. In this project, I have been interviewing the same few research participants on a monthly basis. Minerva wants me to ask the new job whether I can take extended lunches in my first two weeks so that I can finish up the last wave of interviews. Her reasoning is that I have already established rapport with the participants, and they should have the same interviewer throughout the data collection process. I agree that this would be ideal for the participants and for research practices in general, but (1) I don’t actually want to continue working on this project after starting at a new job, and more importantly, (2) I feel uncomfortable about asking the new job for extended lunches in my first two weeks. Minerva says that professional jobs usually understand that sometimes new employees have unfinished business to wrap up from their previous job. I don’t know how true that is, because I have only worked in student positions at research grants in academia.

    I don’t want to burn any bridges with Minerva because she has been a supportive mentor. Continuing a good relationship with her is important for me for many reasons. So, I do plan to ask the new job about the extended lunches. My question – when and how should I do it? Should I ask when I get the offer? And what kind of language should I use?

    1. fposte*

      Wow, Minerva is out of line here. Just to be clear–you’re currently paid for this as a research assistant, and you wouldn’t be paid for this “extended lunch” stuff at all? You’ve said you don’t want to burn bridges, so I’ll leave the strong likelihood that this is illegal there, but it’s quite likely her university wouldn’t be happy with this. (Yes, I’m an academic.)

      You don’t want to do it, it’s utterly inappropriate, your new job isn’t likely to like that your commitment to the place you left is stronger than your commitment to it–I encourage you to politely but firmly push back. “I won’t have time to volunteer on the project when I work elsewhere, but I’m happy to help train my successor before I go.”

      1. Unfamiliar with professional norms*

        Thank you for the advice! In addition to being my boss, Minerva is also my academic advisor (“major professor”, “committee chair”, etc.). I am about to finish one graduate degree before starting this new job (if I get it). I will be resuming my graduate studies part-time later this year and Minerva will continue to advise me, which is why I felt that I should at least ask my new employer about her request. But it’s good to know that my gut feeling about this was right; this would look unprofessional. Also, I’m not sure if it’s pertinent, but the new employer would be an office in the same university, completely unrelated to Minerva’s grant.

        1. ChemMoose*

          If this is the case, does your new job know that you are continuing your graduate studies? Are you doing your new job in conjunction with your graduate studies? Usually, employers will expect you to work a full day in addition to your graduate studies unless there is some sort of agreement between the company and research program. I agree with Marisol (below) – just be open about your responsibilities with finishing the program and what time might work best with your new job. They have priority.

          On a whole different note, I’d suggest you also think about if you want to do your next degree with your current advisor. Just make sure you know what you are getting into with them. Sometimes advisors can treat different levels of students differently. More importantly, if there is other research that is more interesting to you, now is the time to change.

        2. fposte*

          That is hugely pertinent; there will be be a lot more slack cut intra-university for “finishing up a research project.” I still think Minerva is over the line, but pushing back a start date for two weeks to finish up a graduate research project would be within the norm here–just make sure that Minerva isn’t pulling “two weeks” out of thin air.

    2. Taylor Swift*

      I wouldn’t if I were you. I don’t think the new employer is going to be happy that you’re asking to take time away from their job to do another job. And frankly, it just leaves a messy relationship with your old employer. Minerva asks you to do these few interviews but then that morphs into Minerva asking you to do other things. It would be better to have a clean break.

    3. H.C.*

      No, asking for extended lunches to tie up loose ends at your ex-Job is not normal. The new employer may question your commitment to the NewJob & possibly your awareness of business norms.

      What is more common and acceptable is asking for a later start date to complete the project/give a longer notice period/take a break between jobs/etc., but that is up to you and whether you want to finish the project (which seems like a no from your original inquiry).

      If you get the offer and want to start before the research project ends, stand firm with Minerva that your last date will be X & ask what you can do to ensure a successful transition/offboarding during the notice period.

    4. Marisol*

      I don’t know about academia, and my first instinct is to say, “heck with them, once you’ve quit, you’ve quit” but then again, if it’s only two weeks, it doesn’t seem like that big of a deal. And I don’t know what you committed to with these people–was it understood that you would see the project to completion? Fposte mentions this being unpaid–I don’t see any mention of that. If I were in your position, I’d probably go ahead try to negotiate something. I don’t see the harm in indicating to your new employer that you want to wrap up a loose end from your previous project–that makes you sound conscientious in my opinion. Does it have to be lunch time? Can it be on the weekend or at the end of the day? Or can you push the start date back a bit? Regarding what Minerva said about employers being understanding about things like this, I think that usually plays out with postponing the start date. It doesn’t look like working two jobs at once–that’s weird. Although, for two weeks, it is doable. Definitely, you should be paid for this though–that should be non-negotiable.

      1. Unfamiliar with professional norms*

        Thanks for the input! I hadn’t realized that I was in a position to negotiate. I think I will ask whether this work can be done over weekends. It is true that it would be unpaid work, but that aspect is okay with me because of the flexibility I have received in my job with Minerva. I just don’t want this project to affect my reputation at the new job.

        1. Marisol*

          The only way it would adversely affect your reputation is if you were sneaky about it. If you work on the weekends it’s none of their business, but if for some reason you needed to spend time on the project during the work week, then you’d need to clear it with them *before* officially starting with them. So something like, they call you and ask when you can start, and you say, “wonderful! I’m so excited. There’s one small detail I have to negotiate with you though. My last employer asked if I could wrap up the project I was working on. They only need me for two more weeks, so I was wondering if I could postpone the start date until April 15th, or possibly work part time for the first few weeks if you need me to start immediately. I’d prefer to start with [new company] right away but I don’t want to leave my old employer in the lurch.”

          This shows you to be a loyal employee. Nothing wrong with that. Just be above board, and explicit about your commitments, with everyone at all times. Never be a weasel. Not that you would, but the worst thing you could do would be to say, promise to Minerva that you could take a long lunch, and then ghost on her, or try to squeeze the interviews into a half hour and take a *slightly* longer lunch, instead of the full two hours you need…like don’t be wishy washy about it. That will really make you look bad. Err on the side of rigidity, if that makes sense. If you ask for and get a two hour lunch, then take that lunch, don’t apologize about it, but don’t let Minerva guilt you into taking a three hour lunch if you’ve agreed on two. (That’s a weird example, the three hour lunch, but hopefully you get what I’m saying.) Make an agreement, stick to the agreement, make others stick to the agreement, and if you need to renegotiate the agreement, you can attempt to do so, just be explicit.

          1. Marisol*

            And don’t mention the fact that you’re working for free on the other project. As far as the new company is concerned, you’re wrapping up a project with the previous employer, it’s work, the pay/lack thereof is no one’s business.

  202. Anonyby*

    So I had a coworker that was a bit of a problem person. She had put in her 2 weeks, and her last day was supposed to be today. They ended up letting her go early Tuesday morning (this is not normal for my company–it’s normal for resigning people to finish out their notice period). HR also leaned on my heavily afterwards for any/all info I could supply on how coworker had been behaving (which includes some not-great stuff, including texts to me last week that were very weird). That was mostly because I was the only non-contractor employee she had regular contact with.

    Thankfully it’s been such a small office that everyone who wants to gossip has spoken to me by now. For some reason I seem to be the point person for gossip, even though I’m not big on gossiping (and I tried to be very diplomatic about the situation). One of the contractors (who was one of the ones who liked coworker) commented that I seemed happier since she was gone.

    I’m hoping things even out soon. There’s been regular upheaval around here between turnover, changes in policies, one of the offices will be relocating soon…

  203. ArtK*

    Payroll is at least a week late, again. Medical insurance lapsed but was supposed to be restored by today. There was a “problem with their internal systems.” It’s not restored. Almost had a prescription order go through with a $600 co-pay because the pharmacy thinks I don’t have insurance. I’m very glad I’m in the process of looking elsewhere — I just wish some people would get back to me, already!

    1. Marisol*

      this sounds excruciating. when I was a struggling actress, I had some insurance problem that resulted in my paying full-price for a $400 prescription. It was so demoralizing, the feeling of life unraveling, struggling to pay bills, and that one stupid error costing me all that money. But as I’m sure you know…this too shall pass.

  204. Anon +1*

    Pregnancy question!

    I tried looking for this in the archives, but couldn’t find anything. I just found out I’m pregnant, almost 5 weeks (YAY!). I have a 4-day work trip in another city during week 8. I’d rather wait to tell my manager until week 12, but I’m concerned that if something happens during my trip and I need to go to the hospital, it would be good for my manager to know what’s up. Is this the right thing to do? Or am I overthinking it, and it will it be OK if I wait?

    1. Also Anon +1*

      No real advice except you and I are in exactly the same boat! Go Team Week 5!

      Well, maybe I do have advice. I’d wait and go on the trip. If something happens (and heavens, I so hope it doesn’t) then handle the situation appropriately. Then provide the necessary information when the right time comes.

    2. Nanc*

      If your doctor isn’t concerned about you traveling I don’t see a need to say anything. If you weren’t pregnant and happened to sprain an ankle or your appendix burst or you had a chronic illness or pre-existing condition flare up or some other medical emergency pop up they would just deal with it.

      I’m sure everything will be fine!

    3. Gracie*

      Obviously no one knows if something is going to happen but do you or your family have a history of health issues that make you think something might happen? Are you showing obvious symptoms that might give it away? Would they treat you differently (not necessarily negatively)? I think it would depend on your relationship.

      If you want to wait but are worried about something in particular (dizzy for instance) just mention it without specifics “Lately I’ve been having xXxX spells because of yyyy so if that happens then zzzzzz. Just wanted to let you know.”

      Also will you be with this manager or is it just you alone or other coworkers?

      1. Anon +1*

        Good questions! My doctor has cleared the trip, and I’m not experiencing anything that is giving me pause. So far, so good! I would be with all of my coworkers coworkers and a lot of people in my field that I know, since it’s a professional conference my org puts on. I think everyone would be supportive, and excited, so that’s not a concern. I’m just not ready to tell anyone.

        I appreciate all this advice and it makes sense. I think I will just wait and announce it to everyone later when I feel ready to do so. Thank you all for taking the time to share your thoughts!

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      There’s no reason to. On this trip–or at home–you could fall and sprain your knee and need to go the hospital, but you wouldn’t give your manager a heads up unless there was some combination of this being very likely, and you being unable to explain it in the moment. (So if you had a severe peanut allergy, you might explain what symptoms mean ‘epi pen in purse NOW.’)

      Say something earlier than you originally planned if it’s causing you to fall asleep in meetings or break down sobbing at emotionally moving commercials.

      1. Anon +1*

        Totally makes sense. No other extreme symptoms that interfere with work so far, but I’ll keep that in mind. (Although I’ve seen good advice on here about saying “I have a medical condition” to explain symptoms without revealing the actual cause.)

    5. Observer*

      Are you in a high risk pregnancy? If not, I see no reason to say anything to your boss, unless there is something specific going on (eg expectations of booze).

      The likelihood of needing hospitalization in a healthy pregnancy at week 8 is really, really low.

      1. Anon +1*

        Nope! This is my first pregnancy (in case that wasn’t obvious!) and I really don’t have reason to worry, other than the general “This thing could happen completely randomly.” And while my boss and I usually bond over our mutual love of wine, I’ve been open about being on an eating plan that omits alcohol for a while, so I’m not too worried about it being strange if I turn down drinks.

  205. Friday interview*

    In an interview, when you’re asked to talk about your resume, do you start from your last experience or from your background/education?
    I have tried both approaches but I’m not convinced by either. If I start from my last job, very relevant to the position I’m applying, when I go back to my first job (with some relevant aspects) it seems it’s not interesting anymore.
    If I start from the past, I’m not talking about the most relevant experience from the start, and I’m afraid I’m wasting time and losing interest.

    1. ArtK*

      Are they asking some generic question like “tell me about your resume?” If so, that’s a sign that they haven’t bothered to read it (or are testing to see if *you* did.) I’d reply with a question “Is there something in particular you’d like to know?”

      1. Friday interview*

        Yes, it’s the generic first question: tell me about yourself. And today the interviewer actually said he hadn’t read my resume!

      2. Taylor Swift*

        I don’t think it’s necessarily a sign they haven’t read it. They’re just asking to hear a summary in your own words of what your experience is like and probably how you view the path or trajectory you’re on.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      I try to synthesize and talk through the overall arc, so I typically start with a sort of “thesis statement” about my career trajectory and how that’s led me to the position I’m interviewing for, and then walk through the relevant work starting toward the beginning.

      2. overeducated*

        Me too. I take it as an opportunity to give the elevator pitch for why my previous experience all fits together to lead me right to this job. I don’t actually review my resume in order, and give more highlights than a full list.

        It generally works very well for me, except the time it was phrased as “tell me about yourself *outside of* what I can see in your resume,” which threw me off because I was like “…I thought we were here to talk about my professional qualifications?” That whole interview went very poorly.

    1. Nanc*

      Sigh. This is why I insist we list the wage and our benefits in all our ads–at least applicants know up front!

      And seriously, does the company demand customers commit to their services before revealing their prices and terms?

    2. MoodyMoody*

      Yes, I saw that. I think she’s dodged a bullet, frankly. The “HR” person who pulled the interview sounded incompetent.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I saw this one in the news also. I am GLAD. These companies need to cut this crap. I am sorry the woman lost the interview the way she did but I am glad she allowed the story out to be an example of what not to do.

  207. Dizzy Steinway*

    I’m late, but a friend and I were just discussing this and I thought I’d post. Has anyone else gone from long-term freelance back to full-time office work? Six months in and I’m still noticing ways in which I’m operating like a freelancer (examples below). I looked for information on this when I started and just found reams and reams of stuff about moving TO freelancing.

    The main thing I’ve had to adjust to is that it’s okay to say I’m finding a particular task more challenging then expected and could use some coaching or training. As a freelancer I would never ever have let on to the person paying me that I wasn’t completely up to snuff as they just wanted to commission work and get what they paid for – it wasn’t their job to handle my learning and development, and they could have just gone: okay, we’ll use someone else next time. As a parallel, if you hire someone to paint your house you don’t then expect to have to coach them on selecting paint colours. My job has lots of training I can go on anyway, and my manager is great at coaching and advising, but (despise being in the workplace long enough to know I don’t have to Know Everything) I still find it hard mentioning things I’m finding challenging or need more training on and I’m finding it hard to get out of the mentality that I can’t show any weakness even though I know it’s not true. Doesn’t help that I had workplace PTSD and went freelance as I thought I’d never find a job that didn’t just make me ill. (I’m blissfully happy now and coming around to the idea that the other shoe isn’t going to drop.)

    The stuff I thought I’d find hard – like working with other people around me doing terribly inconsiderate things like existing and breathing and walking past my computer – hasn’t been a problem. Nor has moving into a new field. But I have certain habits and hang-ups that I definitely still need to figure out and I wish there was more advice out there on this stuff.

  208. Trix*

    I’m not a bubbly person. I’m not the life of the party, I’m not the one that gets everyone talking and involved in a conversation. I’m pleasant, and polite, and not bad at all at small talk, and I can even be fun, but I’m not superhappybubbly. Never have been, never will be, and I am totally okay with that.

    I tend to be viewed as “serious” at work, which I’m fine with, because I am. But sometimes it comes across more as “unapproachable” or, as I heard a few days ago “mean.” Unapproachable, I kind of understand, and it’s something I’ve been actively working on (and improving on!) in my current role. But “mean”? I don’t get it, and neither does anyone I trust to ask (although, I definitely warm up a little as soon as I start to get to know someone at all, so the people I trust to ask might not actually be the best judges).

    It’s really something I’ve been working on, so it was kind of upsetting to hear that someone said that (someone I work with tangentially recently visited our office so we met in person for the first time, and she mentioned this to my boss, who relayed it to me). Yeah, I’m kind of serious, but I don’t think I’m ever mean. (For what it’s worth, my boss said he didn’t think I was mean, but he understood where she was coming from, and even though he knows that I’m just focused on work, and that I’m actually a delightful person, that’s not always how it’s perceived, and perception is reality, etcetcetc.)

    How do you balance your natural personality that you are totally comfortable in with a workplace that values a level of pep that would be 100% fake to you?

    1. Gracie*

      It’s possibly they didn’t mean ‘mean’ and just meant stern or abrupt. A lady in our office is like that. She’s very work focused and can be abrupt. More like no nonsense.

      And I’ve seen it the other way too. We had a clerk put into a position that required a lot of speaking with c-levels who were all too serious for their own good. Her bubbly personality was very out of place and get abilities questioned but she was awesome. One c- level called her flighty.

      I think that if you have to twist yourself all out of sorts to fit a certain mold then the fit isn’t right. I’d be finding a way to make the mold fit me. Maybe a joke would go a long way about being serious about your work. Also, see if there was a particular action that for this ‘mean’ label

    2. Ultraviolet*

      It might be worth asking your boss how this person felt your “meanness” manifested. Like, did they think you were offering critical feedback unnecessarily, or in harsh terms? Did they think you dismissed someone’s concerns too quickly? The reason I’m suggesting this is that I’m not sure that “pep” is exactly the solution here. Sometimes just being a little more vocal about acknowledging other people’s concerns or expressing interest in their opinions is all you need.

      1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

        Seconding that small changes can sometimes make a real difference in perception. I used to get a lot of criticism of my emails being too harsh – literally the only thing I changed was to add the occasional exclamation point (thanks!), and I never got that complaint again.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I agree that pep is not the solution here. You can retain your seriousness and still show concern for others, either workwise or personal concern. You can still use the appropriate polite terms. You can say good morning and how are you. You can give compliments once in a while, where they make sense.

        You don’t have to have pep, but you have to be approachable and you have to be conversational to some degree.
        Do you routinely answer questions while looking down at your work? Look up. Eye contact is important. Lack of eye contact indicates disinterest (at best) and can indicate contempt in some instances.

        If you know you come across as serious then plan on using some extra wording to give people more to go on.
        For example, someone brings in donuts and you do not wish to have one. Instead of saying “no, thanks” add in something else, “they look yummy though”, or, “nice of you to think of me/us like that.” Just an added phrase gives people a better idea of what you think or mean to say.

  209. Hoorah*

    After interviewing a brilliant applicant I did routine reference check before making a job offer. To my surprise, the ex boss said he was asked to resign after he assaulted another employee reporting to him (the applicant). The ex boss also indicated there were ongoing performance issues and he wouldn’t hire this applicant again if given the chance.

    I’m grateful for the heads up but also feel a little sorry for the applicant. I wonder why he gave his ex boss’s details after leaving his job on such bad terms. This is likely going to affect his chances of employment – actually, it already has!

    1. Lost in LA*

      I guess the better question to ask is: if you had been asked to resign after assaulting a subordinate, would you provide former boss’ information? Former bosses can exaggerate, too. It’s happened to me. Or just ask the applicant about it.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Yes, I’d get back to the applicant and ask him if there was something about circumstances of his leaving his last job. At this point, it might be a he said/he said situation. If it’s true, it’s possible that he learned something. If hired, you’d certainly want to watch him closely for ongoing performance issues.

    2. Observer*

      I would check a couple of things. Firstly, if there was an assault, was it reported to the police? If the boss says yes, this should be a public record.

      Secondly, call HR at the company he worked at and ask some questions. Specifically ask why he left. Ask if he is eligible for he-hire. And, if you don’t get clear answers, ask if there was any violence related to his leaving. A smart company won’t lie to you, in either direction. Because if they tell you all was well when it wasn’t YOU could sue them if something went wrong. And if they tell you something was terrible when it wasn’t, the applicant could sue them. If they won’t give you any answers, that should be a red flag.

    3. Observer*

      Did he have a choice about giving the details? If this was his last job that he was at for some time, not giving the information about the job creates problems too.

  210. Lentils*

    So, my previous manager was very hands-off – she was rarely in the office and didn’t contact me much via email or Skype messaging, unless she urgently needed something. I have been intending to ask for a raise for a long time, since I’m not only making peanuts as compared to the last guy in my job but am now overseeing multiple teams. I was introduced to my new manager, who is taking over as PM for both projects that I’m involved in, just the other day, and she seems nice and much easier to get ahold of than my previous manager. But she hasn’t been here for longer than a week yet. My question is, when would it be reasonable to ask for a meeting about my salary?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      “Sue, I was intending to talk to Old Boss about salary and I never got around to it. I am not sure when you would be available to talk with me, but I’d like to put my request on your radar. Perhaps in a few weeks we could sit and talk for a short bit?”

  211. NewManager*

    I’m being “asked” to hire someone from another department who is about to return from maternity leave to fill a maternity leave position on my team. The position the returning employee is supposed to return to is being eliminated, but by law the company must provide an equivalent position to the returning employee. The woman doesn’t know this yet, but she has expressed interested in some of the work that my team does and might be a good fit for the role. However, I’m sure she will have questions about what happens when the employee on my team returns from her maternity leave and I’m not sure how to answer that as the company doesn’t want to say yet that her original role is being eliminated. Anyone have any advice?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I’d ask my boss how she wants me to answer that question. If my boss hems and haws I would push and say, “I know I am going to be faced with this question so I need something to tell her.”

  212. Nanc*

    Oof. Tough one. I would say at least 90 days to let her get her feet under her and honestly, maybe even six months. It would also give you a chance to stealthily build your case. Although if you have performance review coming up soon, might be worth taking the risk.

    First one-on-one, give her your official job description and then a rundown/updated job description of what you actually do. If your company has standardized job descriptions maybe you can find one that more closely matches what you actually do so you can push to update your title.

    For salary, does your state have an occupation/wage info resources similar to this: https://www.qualityinfo.org/jc-oprof/?at=1&t1=~000000~4101000000~0~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~true~none~0~1~1
    This will give you an idea of what your area/job pays and will help make your case for a higher wage.

    Good luck and let us know what happens.

    Do you have copies of previous reviews or any other documentation so you can show how you’ve been given increased responsibilities?

  213. Tedious Cat*

    I am so excited; Monday I start my new job, which Alison’s interview guide was invaluable in getting! Seriously, that most important question to ask is pure gold; it both impressed my interviewers and gave me really valuable information.

    I’m excited, but nervous; I’ve left basically the only professional job I’ve ever had to take this one, and I’d been at that one almost a decade and a half. OldJob had its flaws, namely stagnancy and no path forward, but it was comfortable, my quirks were accepted, and I was close with many people there (sometimes too close). I’m excited to get a new start, but nervous about moving to a more formal environment — leaving academia for a federal judicial admin-type job (being vague because of the strict social-media policy). I know I’m going to have to be on time and not covered in cat hair. Any other advice for moving to a more formal office, or general advice for moving to a new job after a very long time at an old one?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I hope you see this.
      Law has it’s own subset of “rules”. For example many judges are a bit… odd. Nice enough, but they have their own ways.
      There is lots to read, too much really.
      Bring a note book to use the first week to keep yourself organized. After that you will probably be able to put a file on your computer.
      There’s lots of passwords/usernames so create a cheat sheet and HIDE it.
      Figure out how to get the section symbol on to a short cut key.
      Create a list of contacts and what to contact them for.
      Everyone will seem very nice, but remember they are in a field that thrives on having counter-points to everything that is said. Expect disagreement, don’t personalize it. If you have a point, make your point and assume your point was heard.
      Ask questions, rather than just doing what looks like a good idea.
      If they limit your range on a task or limit your tasks that is a good thing for the moment. They will probably give you more range as you go along.
      Don’t talk to anyone about anything outside the office, until you get a feel for what you can say.

      There’s plenty of lawyers and law students here. You can probably ask general questions when you have some.

  214. Flight attendant*

    I’m late to the game but hoping I might still get some responses. My sister in law is a flight attendant and she’s regularly gone through unpaid training when going to a different airline? To me this seems illegal. So, I’m asking an “is it legal?” question. Is there something different about flight attendant training that makes it legal to not pay them?

    1. fposte*

      Apparently pre-employment training is not generally covered by the FLSA. This gets tested occasionally in the courts, but unless things have changed since the 2004 DOL document I found, FA training would meet the 6 factors required for the situation to be legal:
      The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to that which would be given in a vocational school.
      The training is for the benefit of the trainees.
      The trainees do not displace regular employees, but work under their close observation.
      The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees; and on occasion operations may actually be impeded.
      The trainees are not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the training period.
      The employer and the trainees understand that the trainees are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training.

    2. Construction Safety*

      Yeah, in Houston we regularly sent folks in for pre-employment training (Basic safety & up to three site-specific orientations) before they were allow on site to start their employment. It was all unpaid at that point.

  215. Amy Farrah Fowler*

    Okay, so I have an internal job interview on Tuesday and I’m going to be practicing this weekend, but I have a couple questions for you lovely folks.

    We’re doing the interview via Skype because I work remotely (and would work remotely in the new role as well). I’ve got all my technology squared away, so that should be fine. Because I’ve been helping the department out with their work on a temporary basis, I feel like I have a decent grasp of several of the pieces of the position (though there are some things I haven’t touch yet).

    My question is how to psych myself up for the interview, but at the same time not get my hopes up too much. I’m on the older end of the millennials and have in my working life only held a couple full time jobs that had benefits. Much of my work has been part time, pieced together, making ends meet and this opportunity would allow me to consolidate all my efforts in one job. So I am excited about that. However, I’ve applied internally for full time positions before, made it through several stages of the interview process, only to get a rejection. Last time around it hurt pretty badly and I had decided that it might be better not to continue to apply, but one of my managers specifically invited me to apply for this position, so I did.

    How can I get excited and remain cautious at the same time?

  216. Gaia*

    Ugh. My top performer just quit out of the blue today. She emailed me today (she is off on PTO) and said she was really sad to go but feels she needs to work less due to family obligations.

    I really want to talk to her. If she needs to change her hours or have more flexibility I am happy to work with her. I am planning to have a chat when she returns early next week and see what we can do, if anything.

    1. BlueBasket*

      Be sure to know exactly how far you can go with flexibility before you open any discussions – almost as bad as her leaving would be agreeing to something that x months down the line doesn’t work for the business. Hopefully you can come to a compromise.

  217. MacAilbert*

    How does a lowly retail grunt like thyself impress upon Corporate Office that they need to seriously rethink their purchasing decisions or just expand Direct Store Order capability? We have a liquor license rather than a beer and wine license, which is a big thing in our city (our city almost never issues new liquor licenses, instead requiring you to buy it from someone else who has one, and demand means they are NOT cheap). Most of our chain lacks liquor licenses, so stocking is kind of an afterthought, and we rarely actually sell anything other than minis because corporate hasn’t changed liquor stock in a year and a half, doesn’t send us much, and sends us stuff you can buy cheaper at two grocery stores within a block.

    Meanwhile, we’ve had our ability to directly order beer reduced and Corporate is dictating more and more of our stock, but sending us mostly mainstream stuff that doesn’t sell well because we’re supposed to be a specialty store, and are at a higher price point, so everybody goes to the two grocery stores. Of course, since this happened our sales are dropping, and I’m getting worried.

    Can this be an HR thing? Like, can HR tell me regional beverage manager that certain teams feel they aren’t getting product they can push?

    1. Gracie*

      HR usually has nothing to do with this. They deal with company/employee issues mainly. This decision can be a bunch of different departments depending how big your company is. It is likely your marketing department or whoever is working with the vendors themselves.

      If you have a way to submit ideas, then I would suggest doing that and focus on how things could improve. Or your store manager could. He/she should be giving feedback to corp. Also getting customers to submit comments to corporate is usually the biggest step towards change.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Collect up your comps.
      Go to the grocery stores, write down the brands, the name and the price and size of the product.

      If your sales are dropping, print out a report that shows this fact.

      Then find/print a report on stocking levels.

      Write up your explanation and include these charts here.
      And expect nothing to change. That way if you get even minor shifts you will be pleasantly surprised.
      Am thinking of what happened in Target Canada. Sometimes corporate is deaf and does not care. This is a bad combo.

  218. SlightlyAnonTech*

    I was hoping for some perspective from the AAM folks on a job I applied for. A few weeks after applying, I received an email saying that out of ~300 applicants that applied, myself and ~150 other applicants have been selected for the next stage of hiring, which is a written technical exam relating to the field of work. It’s great that I made it to the next steps (though the majority clearly did, so it’s not that special).

    The problem is the test will be administered at the work place in question, across the country at the end of the month, and the email explicitly stated both the place and time is non-negotiable, and late arrivals won’t be admitted. I could maybe afford to travel there, but that’s about it. I don’t feel safe flying due to the current political climate (I’m Middle Eastern, and am not feeling up to being harassed or detained due to my race and religion, which could also make me miss the exam.), and travel via train would take 2 days, and would get me there minutes before the exam (which I would do, but that would mean showing up to take an exam unshowered and sleep-deprived – or dropping half a grand on a private room with a shower on the train). Either way would cost hundreds of dollars just so I can fill out the correct bubbles on a piece of paper.

    Basically, taking this test is a no-go. But I’ve been trying to break into this field for years, and this is the first bite I’ve gotten out of any application I’ve sent out for jobs in this field. I guess the thing that’s bothering me is that this is the first time I’ve declined to pursue a good job by my own volition, and jobs are pretty sparse in this field.

    Am I making a wrong move here? I desperately want to be considered, but don’t see how I can feasibly do so.

    1. misspiggy*

      Can you find out whether it’s normal to have tests like this to get into your chosen field? If yes, you’re going to have to do it sometime so you might as well go through it sooner rather than later, I guess. If no, it would be better to find an employer who doesn’t require such a demanding recruitment process. Or one who does use the same process, but is closer to where you live.

      1. SlightlyAnonTech*

        It’s not normal, this is just for a government job (so unusual hiring process is to be expected).

  219. Fawnly*

    I sat in on an interview today with my boss for an intern who I would supervise. I haven’t been cleared to give interview questions yet (have to attend an HR class) so I sat next to my boss and took notes on the potential intern’s responses. Boss introduced me as the team lead and his would-be supervisor. Interviewee didn’t acknowledge me at all and I thought it was odd but shrugged it off. For the next 45 minutes he never look at me. Even when boss would look at me and explain some of my job duties he either looked down at the table or looked at boss. When he got up to leave he shook my hand and said it was nice to meet me. Is this normal behavior? I’m new to this. Some of his question responses raised red flags – when asked his best and worst trait he said his best is that he can “do anything” and listed his attitude as his worst. When asked how he handles confrontation with an end user he says he avoids contact with the hostile person.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Did he expand on the attitude thing? Absent more information that somehow makes that better than it sounds, that on its own should be an instant deal-breaker.

      1. Fawnly*

        Hi! Yep, unfortunately he said he has an attitude but that he’s working on it by “ignoring opposition and doing his own thing.”

        1. fposte*

          Does that mean he’s trying to focus on his own stuff or that he doesn’t care what anybody says, he’s doing what he wants?

          1. Fawnly*

            During the after-interview review my boss and I discussed the response and we both understood it as doing what he wants.

    2. BlueBasket*

      I’ve had a similar thing happen to me – and the only thing I could put it down to was gender in my case. I was the only female on the interview panel and whilst the candidate was also female (and knew I was the hiring manager and the role reported to me) she completely ignored me, turning only to the males on the panel, even when it came to questions I had asked! She was an older woman and perhaps she felt the men were ‘in charge’….or really just didn’t like the look of me.

      Re. the gaps in his responses – what did the other interviewers think?

      1. Fawnly*

        It was just me and boss in the room and during the review after the interview boss didn’t bring it up so I did. He said maybe it was because I didn’t ask any questions so he didn’t feel a need to look in my direction at all. The interviewer also said his preferred management style is “hands off or none” and I told boss it concerned me being that we’re in IT and you can seriously screw something up if you don’t know what you’re doing and don’t ask or aren’t recetive to help. He nodded and made a “hmmm” noise but didn’t explicitly agree.

        1. fposte*

          I think that it’s not that uncommon for people inexperienced in interviews to focus only on the question asker. I’d be a lot more concerned with the answers he gave–he sounds like a big PITA.

  220. Number 6*

    Also somewhat late to the party today but hoping someone else will be a night owl/weekend reader and have some thoughts for my situation:

    – I accepted a new job offer and resigned from Current Job this week (many thanks to Alison’s posts and guides!). It’s been a bit surreal. I’d love general thoughts on how best to use one’s time during a notice period as well as when/how/who else to tell about it besides my boss. I’m concerned it’ll be awkward but maybe that’s overthinking it?
    – Does anyone have helpful advice on exit interviews? I don’t remember finding much about them in the archives here and not sure what to expect.

    1. Tedious Cat*

      Congratulations! I’m doing the same thing but ahead of you on the timeline; I finished up at my very long-term job this week and start the new one Monday.

      My biggest regret over my notice period is that I kept doing my job as usual for too long when I should have been concentrating on handing things off and making sure the people who will be covering them until my replacement is hired really understood the detailed parts of my work — it doesn’t seem hard to me, but I’ve been doing it for so long that it’s second nature. I tried really hard to leave things in the best condition I could, and to a certain extent I think I never could have satisfied myself with my documentation and prep, because something will always come up that you didn’t plan for. But I have to let that go now; it’s no longer my responsibility, and I have to be able to accept that in order to start learning New Jobs. Of course, I have no idea what kind of work you do so this advice may not apply depending on your type of work and what your boss asks from you.

      I told my boss as soon as I got the informal offer; I know that generally waiting till you have the signed offer letter is recommended, but I had a good relationship with my boss and giving her as much notice as I could was important to me. I told the other member of my department the next day as well as a couple of coworkers in other departments I was close to, and my boss discussed it with her boss and the other department head we collaborate with. Once I had the signed offer letter, I sent my boss my resignation letter and we set my end date, and then grandboss notified everyone else. (In our work culture, going-away parties are very important.) Again, YMMV.

      The best piece of advice I got, and some may consider this too touchy-feely but it really helped me: figure out what you need to do to feel right walking away. In my case, that involved making the transition as easy as I could for everyone, and saying my goodbyes, as I had been at this job for a really long time. I was exhausted from all the goodbyes at the end, but it was really touching to see that people appreciated my work and wanted to let me know. It’s given me a big boost of confidence for NewJob. We rarely get to say goodbye in life the way we want to, so if you get the chance,btake advantage of it. Of course, for all I know your OldJob may be toxic and this may all be irrelevant! But my point is, be sure to ask yourself what you want from the transition as well as what OldJob asks of you. Trust yourself to know what you need.

      I hope this braindump helped in some way, even if the specifics don’t apply to your situation. It’s all I can think about, so I’m happy to have an excuse to talk about it. Congratulations and best wishes!

      1. Number 6*

        Thanks so much for replying, and congrats to you as well! I hope your first week at NewJob goes well.

        I anticipate that there’s going to be some tension between doing normal tasks and helping prepare others in the department for what the role entails, like you talked about, which will be interesting to navigate. And trusting yourself to know what you need for good-byes and wrapping things up rings true, even though it can be tempting to want more of a hard-and-fast rule. Thank you again!

  221. Bummer, Man*

    Weird work situation. There has been talk of our division being shut down. We are finishing up on several different projects and there’s nothing new in the pipeline. A fair number of people have already been let go because of a lack of work. We also don’t really fit the rest of our parent corporation’s holdings. There has been talk of the division being put up for sale, of an employee buy-out, or of the division being shut down.

    But the big news was a couple of weeks ago, one of the main sub-division supervisors was entertaining a client with a VP from corporate and he was told he was being let go by the VP in front of the client. The client immediately offered him a consultant position at the client company. Still, it seems it was handled terribly badly. Would you say it was “gauche?” No word on if he accepted the client’s offer. Meanwhile, I’m dusting off the old resume…

    1. babblemouth*

      Wow, that was so inappropriate on the VP’s side.
      I thought the “getting offered a job on the spot” thing only happened in fiction though, and while it sounds like the client means really well, I would worry about walking in an unsustainable situtation where manager make important decisions like these on a whim…

      Good luck on the resume and job search!

      1. The Other Dawn*

        I see what you’re saying, but it’s possible the supervisor was working with the client for a long time and the client really knows their work and is dazzled by it.

  222. Theo*

    male interview clothes question

    so i wear button up with tie and white slack pants with black shoes way back from my prom (i just know it’s black idk how to describe shoes) (my shoes size havent change), is it bad or is the shoes too fancy for interview? my mom thinks the shoes is too fancy. i think it’s ok but what do i know.

    1. babblemouth*

      That always kind of depends on what job you’re interviewing for. Some jobs like more formal, others are more relaxed.
      That being said, black shoes should blend in most situations, and I don’t think you have to worry about these. Even if they are a bit too formal, it’s better to be overdressed than underdressed at a job interview anyway, so wear the nice shoes.

      1. Theo*

        yeah…
        for retail/food service i tend to dress something more casual on the top like a plain color polo and then white slack pants and tennis shoes….

  223. BlueBasket*

    So over the last few years my work history has been….patchy shall we say. I took a couple of fixed term contract jobs (circa 18 months each) and in between took a break of about 6 months when my Father was dying. My most recent contract ended about 3 months ago and I’ve been on a break since, and intend to be for at least another 6 months or so, as my Mother is terminally ill. These are personal choices I was financially able to make, and I have no problem with being out of the workplace for that length of time.

    However….I know this makes my resume look a little flaky and I’m wondering if you all have ideas on how to either gloss over this or explain it to employers. I really don’t like to talk about why I took the breaks – when it was just my Dad I said ‘caring commitments now dispensed with’ but I have a feeling after two lengthy gaps in my work history recruiters will be like…my gosh, what is this candidate up to?! I could probably volunteer etc., or take on a part-time college course so it at least looks like my breaks were productive…

    1. The Other Dawn*

      This is just my personal opinion as I’m not a fan of glossing over things and I can tell when a candidate is doing it to me: just tell them the truth. To me, this isn’t being flaky. This is caring for terminally ill parents. No good employer is going to hold that against you. You could address it in your cover letter maybe? Maybe that’s too personal for some people, but like I said, I’m someone who appreciates the truth.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        To clarify, the language in the cover letter could mention the “caring commitments” you mentioned previously or some other variation that makes it clear that this wasn’t just you deciding to take several breaks. Not necessarily the words, “my parents were dying.”

  224. Office Plant*

    I’ve been volunteering at two non-profits and they both want to hire me part time. The catch is that they can only pay me SIGNIFICANTLY below market value for my field. About 15% of my previous salary if you convert everything to an hourly rate to adjust for the full time / part time difference. I’m ok with it to a large extent because I enjoy the work and I think there will be room to adjust the job title and description so it’s something that could help me make a career change. I’ll find out this week. But is it a mistake to accept a low rate of pay? They aren’t singling me out; there’s someone else there with an advanced degree who makes about the same as what they’d be paying me.

    The real issue is that they don’t seem to understand my qualifications. They seem to think I’m young and that I have tech skills because all young people do these days. At one, the boss keeps introducing me to people as an “intern”. Correcting her in person didn’t work. I had to write her an email asking her to use “volunteer” instead because of my age and past experience. Crazy.

    So, sometime soon, hopefully, we’ll talk about the details. I’m prepared to walk away if things don’t work out. But I seem to be walking a fine line between being patient and helpful to these organizations and, uh, failing to stand up for myself. Words of wisdom, anyone?

  225. blackcat*

    I am late to the party, but I’m hoping someone can chime in on this: How do you interact respectfully with someone who is 1) spectacularly incompetent, 2) insistent that they are always right, and 3) sexists assholes?

    I am in a PhD program. I came to the institution to work with my advisor who is a Big Name in my subfield, but the program itself is middling. There are some very talented students in my program, and some who I doubt should be getting a PhD in my field. In general, I have had good working relationships with the other grad students, particularly when it comes to teaching. I taught k-12 for a few years, and so most grad student TAs view me as a resource.

    But yesterday, a first year grad student, who is a TA in an intro level class first messed something up that I would not expect those intro level students to mess up (I am STEM, but not math. This was on the level of saying that 3x=6 means x=0.5. So like not out of the realm of what first year undergraduates may mess up, but the sort of thing only the weakest undergrads are going to botch). I pointed out that he was wrong, explaining where is reasoning failed, offering a counter example (eg “3 x 0.5=1.5, not 6”). He insisted that he was right, and raised his voice at me, saying that I just didn’t understand. I didn’t handle it well. I raised my voice right back, and pointed out that basic science (and math) is basic, and he had messed it up. Another one of the (female) grad students tried to back me up, and was dismissed as well. He didn’t back down until another (male) grad student stepped in.

    I am really pissed. I definitely got a “silly women can’t possibly be right” tone from him. Women are about 10% of the students in my program, and that’s typical for my field. I am widely recognized by both students and faculty as being one of, if not the most, talented student in the program, though I have never taken a class with this individual. In several years of grad school, this is the only time I have been so thoroughly dismissed–I am grateful that I face very little sexism given that it is generally rampant in my field.

    On top of my personal anger, I am horrified that someone in a graduate program in my field could make a mistake of this sort, and that he is teaching undergraduates.

    Part of my role this semester is to provide support to the TAs, including this guy. So I need to find a way to interact with him professionally. I readily admit I did not handle myself super well, but I also don’t see a way that I could have–I get the sense that he would not have listened to me no matter what. I also am not in an explicitly supervisory role, though many of the other newbie TAs treat me that way (eg, they ask me questions and generally defer to my opinions, and seem appreciative of my help).

    So, what could I have done differently, and what do I do going forward?
    I don’t think it’s productive for me to have a conversation with him about his behavior, and I don’t know I can get a male faculty member to have that conversation (none were present). But I’m angry, and I don’t know how I can have a reasonable working relationship with this guy going forward.

    1. fposte*

      I would consider taking these things out of the equation: your suspicion of a gender vibe, and your feeling that you are unusually talented in this program and that should be considered. I would take a thermostat read of the program on yelling, because that’s not automatically something worthy of reprimand (and if it is then you’ll have to own up to your part), but I would consider talking to the program director about protocol for corrections and dealing with errors. (I’m not clear when this error happened–if it was in front of a class and the yelling was in front of a class, that’s a whole different thing and should definitely go to the program director.)

      But I would also consider talking to the guy directly, because what you’ve described seems like something it makes sense to do that with first. Find a quiet moment, and say, “Hey, Bob, as director of the TAs I’m going to need to be able to advise you, which means sometimes telling you things you don’t want to hear. I’d like to be able to support you in that way without you losing your temper and yelling. Do you think you can do that?”

      1. blackcat*

        Since the context does matter: this was a meeting of TAs. No undergrads present, no faculty, just me running a discussion with other grad students (about 12 people, 1 other woman). I don’t do these meetings often–just once a month.

        About the talent thing: I don’t think I said this well, but I wanted to point out that I’m really not used to this. I think the perception of me in the department has something to do with this, actually. I don’t get dismissed by male students, and I’ve heard other female students say this happens on a regular basis to them. So, basically, I think I’m less good at handling it than women who don’t get the benefit of the doubt. I mean, yeah, I think I take it as an extra personal affront that he thinks he’s smarter than *me,* but that’s my issue and it’s not really relevant here. It contributes to my feelings, but should not contribute to my response.

        And on the gender thing: I don’t think it’s really a suspicion, given that 2 women told him “No, you’re wrong” and he only considered the possibility when another man told him he was wrong. It might not be conscious on his part, but it was certainly part of the dynamic. And it makes me wary of talking to him myself, since I have reason to believe he won’t take me seriously. I’ve gotten that vibe a bit from this individual before, but never to this extent. But I do think I can try your script, and I might also try to have a chat with the professor for the course this individual TAs for. That professor is a kind, though socially clueless, older man.

        The yelling isn’t something that I necessarily take issue with–I’ve got a couple of yellers in my research group, and I can work with them fine (ah, the disfunction of academia). The main issue is the refusal to listen to reason. We’re scientists, and failing to listen to basic logic is just not acceptable.

        1. fposte*

          Note that I didn’t say you were wrong on the gender thing–just that I’d take it out of the equation when dealing with him. So I would still consider talking to him first, and then going to the program director if that doesn’t seem to get you heard.

      2. Tabby Baltimore*

        This might be a somewhat underhanded way of handling this, but I would like you to consider the “give him enough rope to hang himself” approach in future: If this happens again, if you can, try to stay calm, and in the most neutral conversational tone you can manage, try to get him to explain to you his thinking about how he arrived at “x=0.5.” Listen, take notes on it, then let him know you’ll be emailing him a summary of the conversation, and that you’d appreciate it if he could write back and confirm this approach, and put a read-receipt on the email. If he’s dumb enough, or furious enough, to respond to the effect, that, yes, that IS an accurate summation of his thinking, then keep the email. Then don’t respond any further. As each one of these situations occurs over the next, say, 2 months, document them in the same way. After a while, you will have a package of emails that you can show either your advisor, his advisor, or the department chair that this student has some serious academic deficiencies that need addressing, which perhaps can be alleviated by him being relieved of his teaching duties altogether and put in some remedial classes to get “refreshed” before he’s allowed into the classroom again. I have no idea whether this approach could backfire on you, I’m just offering it as an option to think about.

    2. Ultraviolet*

      I think we’re in the same field (if I’m remembering correctly from other posts you’ve made). I just defended and am soon leaving the field entirely, exactly because of this kind of thing. Not sure whether that makes me a good source of advice on this, since I clearly never mastered handling these interactions. But I really, really get why it infuriates you.

      Anyway. Based just on your summary of the conversation, I think you handled it fine (I’m incorporating your other comment that yelling isn’t super odd in your department). It’s always possible that if you’d phrased your proofs and counterexample differently, he would have been persuaded, but I’m inclined to think he would just never have listened to you, or had gotten so invested that he couldn’t acknowledge he’d been wrong and was hoping to just wear you down and end the conversation. And he probably thought the other guy who joined the conversation was less susceptible to that kind of “proof by intimidation,” so he just gave up then.

      I’m not sure what to do going forward, especially if the thing you want to solve is him not listening to you rather than him yelling. I think it’s fair to alert the professor for the course that you’ve noticed that one TA is making seriously elementary math errors and you’re worried about what he’s passing on to the undergrads. Given that you are not explicitly a supervisor, though, I would leave any appeal to your unofficial head TA status completely out of it. As I understand it, the problem isn’t really that he doesn’t respect that status, it’s that he wasn’t listening to you in your capacity as a scientist. And truthfully, that’s all he’s obligated to do.

      1. blackcat*

        Yeah, you’ve hit the nail on the head here, I think. And your uncertainty around what to do is exactly where I am at.

        I’m really sorry you have experienced so much of this that you are leaving the field. It’s a real problem–I regularly call bullshit on the “leaky pipeline” metaphors. Women aren’t slipping through the cracks passively, we’re being actively pushed out the door by assholes.

        I actually feel really lucky to have faced so little of this. My research subfield is actually much more gender-balanced and full of remarkably kind, socially aware people, so I do not regularly encounter problems in research settings. Several of my advisor’s former students are women and still in academia, and they are wonderful mentors to me.

        And in the program at large, my particular cohort is full of really good guys. The faculty are generally great, despite being almost entirely old white men (what I mean is that, if you looked at a picture of the faculty, you would not expect them to be the most supportive group). I’m the only woman in my cohort, but it’s really never been a problem. The very few times I have faced the male student refuses to listen problem, it has been handled by another man.

        It’s generally gone like,
        Biased Male Student: “blahblah [thing that doesn’t make sense].”
        Me: “No, because XYZ.”
        Biased Male Student: “No, XYZ is not at all true, that’s a silly suggestion.”
        Good guy student: “No, because XYZ.”
        Biased Male Student: “Oh, right! Thanks!”
        Good guy student: “I just repeated Blackcat verbatim. You ignored her. That was seriously uncool, and part of why women leave this field. Don’t be a d*ck.”
        or
        Biased Male Student: “blahblah thing that doesn’t make sense.”
        Me: “No, because XYZ.”
        Biased Male Student: “No, XYZ is not at all true, that’s a silly suggestion.”
        Old male faculty member: [raises eyebrow] “Would you like a proof of XYZ? Because I suspect Blackcat can provide a rigorous one. I recommend listening to her.”

        1. Ultraviolet*

          That sounds like an overall good environment! Maybe this one guy will pick up a clue there.

  226. Mel*

    I know this probably won’t be seen, but I just want to share that I finally got a job in the field I wanted! I’ve been temping for 10 months in a hospital as a medical secretary, where I could have become permanent but didn’t want to. I have multiple master degrees, one of which should have been a PhD, which is why I had to get a temp role in the first place. I was super bored in the role and was trying to find work in data analysis in either a medical, non-profit, or research setting so I could move on to the next phase of my career. So finally, 13 months after my life came crashing down with my PhD failure and overseas move, (I had been doing the PhD course in Europe and had to return to the US because my visa was completely dependent on getting the PhD), I’m finally back on track.
    I’ve been reading AMA for a good 6 months, and I owe so much to the advice I’ve seen on here. I even got advice from another commenter in an open thread about never, ever mentioning that part of the reason I wanted a data analysis role was because I’d like to try for a PhD in the field in the next few years. (Why another attempt at a PhD? Because all the jobs in the career path I aspire to require one.) That commenter warned me that it sounded like I was just using the job as a stepping stone, which is completely true but not what employers want to hear. I did not mention future education goals in my interview, although I worried if I had danced around a little to much to avoid answering a direct question on what my career goals were. I also used a bunch of the questions that have been recommended on AMA that are good for a job candidate to ask (i.e. what does success in this role look like; what would a career path look like for someone in this role; etc.). Thank you everyone!

    1. Mel*

      Also, I wanted to add that the advice on salary negotiations have been super helpful. I know I’ve made stupid negotiation mistakes (related to the whole big issue of women having trouble with this). But I confidently gave my ideal salary to HR, while mentioning that I was willing to negotiate in case I priced myself out, and they met it! No discussion! I was worried it was on the higher side of the range, as I had done some research, but it was met no problem. I actually think it likely has a lot to do with the previous person in the role being there for well over 5 years, so probably had a salary progression that made me cheaper anyway, but I’m so super happy!

  227. Anxa*

    How bad do you think it is to have a form cover letter?

    I’m applying to several research assistant jobs in laboratories at a medical school. Many of the job ads have recycled bullets. Many of the essential job functions are the same.

    So far I’ve basically written 3 cover letters for these jobs, but some of them I’ve tweaked a little and submitted.

    Each cover letter has about 3-4 original lines addressing why the rest of the story applies to that particular research project, but they are all pretty much similar jobs with different disease/organisms of study.

    1. Nallomy*

      I did this during my last two job searches. I’m an elementary school teacher, and probably 95% of those jobs are basically the same job. I had already targeted my search to schools/districts with the demographics that fit my background best (I teach ESL/bilingual/SIFE), so my cover letters from that point on were pretty much the same.

    2. Mel*

      I’m in the same field, and I’ve been doing exactly that. I have some standard paragraphs that I’ll cut and paste as needed – some tailored for working with human participants, some tailored for data management, etc.
      I also really took this to the next level for the research hospital I’ve been temping at, where I’ve removed the specific lab I’m applying to and only include the type of post (clinical research assistant, data analyst, etc.). Their application system ONLY allows 10 uploaded files at one time, and I discovered that if I removed one it also was removed from the application permanently!

  228. Hooligan*

    I’m in the middle of negotiating salary, and I’d love some input. I got an offer on Friday. The salary is 5% above what I’m making now. Based on my research, the market rate for the role is 16%-24% above my current salary for my area. They’re supposed to get back to me with a new number on Monday. If it’s still lower than makes me happy, can I go back for another second round? For context, I’m pretty sure they really like me. They’ve moved really quickly, and I got the offer 12 hours after my final interview.

    1. Naruto*

      Would you accept? Are you trying to keep the job, but also get more money if you can? Or would you only accept if they hit a certain higher number?

      If the latter, this is easy. Ask for the number you need, since you aren’t taking the job otherwise.

      For the former, I think it depends on how both parties have been framing things. Did you say “market is 20% more, is there more you can do?” If so, I suspect they’re as high as they’re willing to go. If you didn’t say that, maybe you still should now, but I would make sure to let them know you’re interested either way.

  229. MessedUpMillenial*

    We held an event at my job this week and the organizer forgot to invite my boss’s friend! Boss found out her friend was sent to the wrong room (damn, e-mail chains!) and wants to talk to me about it since I was there. Friend was a no-show even after I quickly emailed her the correct event info. I had no hand in the organizer’s error and I didn’t even have the event details confirmed until very late the day before. Still, my boss is holding me responsible for the organizer’s error. Boss is pretty normally understanding but this was a major mistake on the organizer’s part for not sending the right info. This was a valuable networking opportunity for the friend, organizer, and my department and we blew it. I’m not as mad at the organizer as I should me; I’m mad at myself for not catching his error sooner to correct it before my boss found out.

    I am mostly scared because this is my first big job and first crack at earning real money. I’ve been writing up apology emails to both the friend and my boss since this morning but haven’t sent them yet. I’m trying to explain without completely throwing the organizer under the bus. He copied boss on his sincere apology to the friend for missing her. So, she knows it was his fault, but the stress is making me feel sick. I am trying to be professional with all 3 without ruining relationships with either. The friend is likely done with us but we still need the organizer and my boss on my department’s side! What should I do? I am TERRIFIED about what will happen when I talk my boss.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Well the worst thing that can happen is you get fired. I am almost certain you will NOT get fired. You say you have a reasonable boss and you say she wants to talk to you about it. That means she wants to ask you what happened.
      Tell her what you told us. The organizer already apologized, so you are not throwing anyone under the bus. It’s out the open that organizer messed up. I don’t understand why Friend did not respond to your email, but I guess you will find out why. You can express regret that your message did not get to Friend fast enough, or you can express regret that she could not find your group. I guess I would offer up a suggestion of the next time you go to an event with someone you are going to make sure you stay in cell phone contact with each other so both of you are on the same page.

  230. Anony Oz*

    Seeking perspectives and advice:

    I’m leaving a job after less than a year where I know the manager is incompetent, unprofessional and manipulative. I’ve seen it play out first hand with other staff that have now left and also been a victim of it myself in many smaller ways. (Think: smear campaigns, Excluding high-performing reports from team initiatives because she felt threatened, blatant lies to her boss about her whereabouts, pretending her kid is sick to get paid time off, but posting Instagram pics of them doing very ‘non-sick-kid’ things, and very unethical conduct in her use of work time for personal gain, ousting employees that have been performing well out of their roles because they don’t benefit her agenda, as well as poor management of our team members in general.)
    Her boss has an inkling about this behaviour but his kind nature tends to avoid conflict. And when confronted, she often twists the conversation to appear like a struggling victim who should be supported and made exception for, rather than having to change. A typical conversation will start with a report or manager saying to her, ‘I’ve noticed xyz is happening and it’s making me feel the negative feelings of abc (or having negative consequences to my work).’ But her typical response will be, ‘Well abcdefghijklmnop has been happening to me – feel sorry for poor me poor me poor me.’ For the whole conversation, without ever addressing the concern raised. Pushback on this by saying ‘Ok, sorry to hear that but you still need to address xyz’, results in either more babble to change the topic and in some cases, retaliation – being avoided and excluded altogether because she know you’re trying to get to the truth. She does this to her boss too, not just to reports and You basically go on her blacklist if you can’t be manipulated into sympathising with her ‘plight’, which is usually a bunch of small nothings inflated out of proportion to make it seem like the rest of the organisation is incompetent and plotting against her.

    Interestingly, on the day I resigned she told me she found out her superiors are investigating her for bullying type misconduct. This came about after a manager at her level resigned and sent a telling email to selected colleagues about the treatment she’d received for months (attempts at mediation had failed).

    I have a feeling the investigation is being conducted by HR just to cover their own backs. (But maybe they want her gone, who knows). Either way, news she is being investigated has majorly erked her gherkin. She told me in no uncertain terms her game plan was to work from home the following week and get a new job as soon as possible. (She’s been saying she hates the place and is getting a new job since I started).

    The problem I now have is that on the Monday after I resigned with 2weeks notice, manager emailed our department saying she received very upsetting news on the Friday and wouldn’t be in (no explanation or timeframes given), and in the same email followed this up with a sentence that I was also resigning. She did this before I’d even arrived at work or had the chance to tell my closest colleagues I’d resigned late Friday, which was hurtful. On top of that, everyone in the office now thinks I have something to do with her ‘upsetting news’ when in reality she’s brought this investigation on herself with her own behaviour! (A colleague tipped me off that this was the gossip going around because of her email). I feel completely manipulated again – we work in communications and she knew exactly what effect that would have on our office.

    My main concern is pretty much just to leave on good terms with all parties. As much as I don’t agree with her conduct, what goes around comes around and I feel she’s already ruined her career enough without me needing to do anything.

    But I have three questions which I feel I need answers to to better deal with these kind of situations in the future – a) Is there any excuse for this behaviour as a top level manager that I am missing?
    b) if not, is she just a weak manager or does this actually sound like someone with sociopathic tendencies? Can those type of people learn to change or are they screwed up in the head?
    c) how to handle a situation where your gut is extremely confident someone is lying, but you cant call them a liar outright for professional reasons – should you make them think you believe them (for the sake of keeping the peace) or is it better to call them on their behaviour in the hope they learn from their mistakes that people aren’t actually idiots?

    What would people here conclude?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      Wow, I am so sorry you are going through this. Other commenters are much more experienced than I am to address this kind of boss behavior, so you should probably listen to them when they eventually weigh in. While we’re waiting, though, I’ll take a crack at your questions:
      (a) I think Alison may have already answered this question in a previous letter some time in the last two weeks, but, yes, unfortunately, your boss can announce your resignation any time s/he pleases. Would it have been a nice gesture to give you a heads up on when she was planning to do this? Of course, but this isn’t someone who thinks about what’s best for others, only for herself. The moment the words came out of your mouth, you should’ve realized you were on borrowed time. Live and learn, then.
      (b) I don’t know that I’d call your boss a sociopath since I’m not a psychiatrist, but she does seem to be insecure and fearful, manipulative, and reckless. Maybe she has a personality disorder, not a full-blown mental illness? Anyway, since she’s clearly not a self-reflective type, my money is on her never changing.
      (c) From the what you have described, I would say your manager puts people in one of two categories: threatening and non-threatening. Only you know whether you are willing to pay the consequences that will result from appearing “threatening” (however you can discern she defines that). Ideally, if you could remain neutral and non-committal when these kind of talks occur, she’d accept that as non-threatening. If that doesn’t work, then I want you to know that making your boss think you agree with her to keep the peace, while you look for other work, is not a moral failing on your part; it is a survival mechanism, and you are not compromising your principles.

      For what it’s worth to you, I suspect her shenanigans have likely long been known by many at your company, and I don’t think you need to worry about the optics of her linking her “upsetting news” to your resignation in the same email. If you were worried about using her as a reference for any future job applications (it’s perfectly understandable you wouldn’t want to use someone who’s under internal investigation), NOW–during your notice period–would be the time to talk to someone else at your boss’s same supervisory level who knows your work to ask if s/he would be willing to function as a reference instead.

  231. Still a nervous nellie*

    Just a rant, sort of. I posted here a few weeks ago about my new job and how it’s driving me crazy. I’ve been there several months, and after countless conversations, second thoughts, reconsidering, and soul searching, I think I’ve reached the end of my rope with it. I just don’t have any more energy to expend into this place (not the field itself) especially since there’s more work and stress on the horizon. At this point, I’m just a mess, and now I’m driving my loved ones crazy with my constant anxiety. Said anxiety is making me sick, whether it’s upset stomachs, panic attacks, tears, or hysteria.

    As much as I want to stick it out for the sake of my resume and job history, I’m going to start submitting applications elsewhere. I enjoy working, and I want to keep working, but not at this place.

    Rant over.

  232. Death Rides a Pale Volvo*

    Here’s a question on salary negotiations:

    I think I’m going to be offered that position out in Oregon (YAAAAAAH GO ME). I was told, when applying, that the job salary was $xx. If I’m made an offer, can I say something akin to “I’m very excited about this opportunity, but I was wondering if we can adjust the salary to $yy?”

    I’m actually perfectly OK with the original salary, and it’s inline with the rate for that role within the industry. I’m normally inclined to say, “All right, WHOO-HOOO!” but I’m trying to be better at negotiating salary. I won’t say I’m hopeless at it because I’m female, but I will say I’ve had no coaching in it whatsoever. Thoughts? Advice?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Ask for more if you think you can justify it. Do NOT ask for more just to have practice at negotiating salary. If you are satisfied with the offer then accept it as is.

      If you have basis for asking for more then explain your basis. This could some credential you have that they forgot to consider. This could be because of the going rate for your job title in the area, etc. Have a real reason.

      Look over your benefits package. Make sure they are actual benefits and the benefits are of value to you. It could be that they offer you one week’s vacation, your last job you had three weeks. So you could decide to ask for one more week of vacation time. (Not a great example but it gives you an idea.)

  233. Naruto*

    If you meet with someone about a potential opening (informally, say, for a cup of coffee), and they say they want to bring you in to meet certain other members of their team and ask for your availability, and then if you provide your availability and hear nothing other than “great, thanks, we’ll be in touch soon” — what amount of time do you all think would be right to follow up? I assume only poke at them (gently) once, and no more?

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