open thread – March 24-25, 2017

by Alison Green on March 24, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. No Name For This*

    I need to vent…An intern started here on March 1st and he is here until June 30. I feel terrible for saying this because he is nice and he does his best to work hard, but he is annoying and it’s starting to grate on me. He’s unaware (or seems unaware) of basic things and life skills. For example, our office is located in a skyscraper in a downtown area. There is more than one hospital nearby and sometimes medical helicopters come and land on the rooftops of the hospitals. We can hear them when they get close to our building. He asked what the noise was and when someone told him it was a helicopter he at first freaked out that it had been hijacked or was in trouble because it was flying so low. This was understandable, but when my boss explained they were medical helicopters the intern was wowed because he said he didn’t know that helicopters went to hospitals or that they could land on rooftops. He talked about it non stop for 2 days, bought it up in a meeting and even mentioned it in work emails he sent. He grew up in the same city our office is in and has lived his whole life in a condo that is higher than our office. The condo faces a different hospital but he said he didn’t ever pay attention to the hospital roof.

    This is just one example. He got so excited when he found out that electric staplers exist that he squealed, took video of one being used and emailed almost the entire office. He’s also woefully unaware of current events (not to get political but he didn’t know about the travel bans, the existence of Obamacare). Because of this he constantly interrupts conversations because he doesn’t understand what people are talking about. He didn’t understand why the phones on our desks have more than one line or that printers can be wireless. He calls wireless printers and driverless cars magic and spent a week trying to figure them out. He thought that knights and dragons ‘still’ exist in England today. He was awestruck when he found out people have curly hair naturally. He also goes off on tangents and says things that make no sense (a conversation about products shipments turned into him talking about snakes being able to swim and then snakes being descended from aliens)

    My boss is aware but upper management says he is here to stay for the full duration because he shows up on time, does his work and isn’t hostile or angry to people. I agree that he is not hostile, but he doesn’t take the hint when he goes off on tangents and people try to cut him off or that he is generally annoying to people. These are just some examples. I could write a novel. In half an hour I have to go to a 3 hour meeting that he will also be at :/

    1. Leatherwings*

      Oh god. I would be so irritated. At least you’ll always have the story of the intern who didn’t know about helicopters or electronic staplers?

      How do people like this manage to navigate everyday life?

        3. Nicole J.*

          I looked at the one in my office for six years, thinking it was some sort of executive game, before someone told me it was actually an electric stapler.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Yeah, a year from now this will make a great story. Other people will try “our intern is always texting her boyfriend” and “our intern takes long coffee breaks” and you can throw down “our intern knew that snakes are descended from aliens, but not that health care policy was a thing people were talking about, and electric staplers are worth videoing and sending to the entire office in which the electric stapler exists.” And you will win.

        Try to get into an anthropology headset, where you view him as a fascinating specimen and take mental notes for your dissertation.

        1. Lucky*

          I would like to know his thoughts on dinosaurs and unicorns. I once met a young man who thought dinosaurs were mythical but unicorns were real but extinct. Argued heavily in favor of his beliefs.

          1. Orca*

            I had an extremely old bible that had unicorns in it! More recent translations change it to antelopes if I recall correctly but maybe that’s where that came from!

            1. Evan Þ*

              Long story short, the King James translators back in the 1600’s didn’t have the least idea what animal the Hebrew word re’em was talking about, so they translated it “unicorn.” Modern scholars’ best guess is a wild ox, so that’s what gets in modern translations.

          2. Kate*

            where is my jaw? Oh, down there on the floor… what the… how can you even… how did he… I have no words!

          4. Mirax*

            Late to this thread, but I once got in a full-blown argument with my best friend because he said narwhals exist. I had only ever seen a toy narwhal packaged in a gift set with a plastic unicorn and dragon; my logic was, well, unicorns don’t exist, dragons don’t exist, obviously the reason a narwhal is being sold with these two mythical creatures is because it is a mythical creature as well.

            1. Anon for Always*

              I only read the first sentence of your post about the narwhal. I’m thinking “seriously, narwhals DO exist!” Then I read the read of your post…it always helps to read the post in entirety. Glad I didn’t respond first then read :)

    2. Alice*

      Wow! From the outside it sounds like a sitcom. It’s probably not as much fun when you can’t turn the TV off….

    4. Cambridge Comma*

      Would he take specific directions on office norms that wouldn’t focus on the content? Such as: don’t send non-work related mails, don’t take non-work-related video in the office, scale back the chatting, respect people’s time?

      1. Lance*

        As an intern, who may be early in his career, these would be doing him a serious kindness. To his credit, though, it sounds like he is a good worker, so if you take away the mild irritation factor, I’m sure things will be just fine.

      2. Partly Cloudy*

        This is a good suggestion. Is it possible that he’s violating the company’s email usage policy by sending such nonsense? That could be a starting point.

    5. SophieChotek*

      He thought that knights and dragons ‘still’ exist in England today.
      You mean they don’t? I’m crushed.

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        Saint George slayed them all.

        Which, if you’re going to believe the legend, at least know the legend! (addressing the intern, and not your joke, to be clear)

      2. KarenD*

        Well, actually, England is pretty much overrun with knights. Every time they think they’ve got the pesky things under control, the Queen goes and makes a few more. She even knighted Rudy Guiliani, for heaven’s sake!

        1. Jessesgirl72*

          Sir Elton John doesn’t wear armor, though, so Ryan would be really disappointed in these modern Knights.

          1. JanetM*

            According to an answer at Quora: “When a foreign national receives an honorary knighthood of an order of chivalry, he is not entitled to the prefix Sir, but he may place the appropriate letters after his name.” (Elizabeth Wyse, Jo Aitchison, Zöe Gullen, Eleanor Mathieson, ed. (2006). “Forms of Address”. Debrett’s Correct Form (2006 ed.). Richmond, Surrey: Debrett’s Limited. pp. 98, 100. ISBN 978-1-870520-88-1.

            I get the impression from Wikipedia that most non-British who are honored with knighthoods receive the Order of the British Empire, “rewarding contributions to the arts and sciences, work with charitable and welfare organisations, and public service outside the Civil Service.”

            and “The five classes of appointment to the Order are, in descending order of precedence:
            1. Knight Grand Cross or Dame Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (GBE)
            2. Knight Commander or Dame Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (KBE or DBE)
            3. Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (CBE)
            4. Officer of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (OBE)
            5. Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (MBE)”

            https://www.quora.com/Knighthood-Is-it-possible-for-a-non-native-British-citizen-to-be-knighted

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_British_Empire

            1. many bells down*

              Well I now have a new life goal: annoy Queen Elizabeth until she knights me. I mean, I’m a descendant of William the Conqueror AND Lady Godiva, we’re practically cousins!

      3. Creag an Tuire*

        No.

        The last known English dragon, Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher, unfortunately passed away in 2013.

    6. LizB*

      How old is this intern? This is really bizarre behavior. Whoever is in charge of him needs to sit him down and have a talk about soft skills – at the very least about not emailing the entire office when he learns something new. He’s an intern, he’s going to be learning new things pretty frequently! I think it would also be acceptable to ask him not to interrupt conversations, and to take a hint if someone changes the subject. The rest of it, though… I’m not sure how you address “your level of maturity and grasp of reality is vastly different from the rest of the office” in a professional way. You may just have to deal with it.

      1. Amber T*

        Yep – intern manager needs to sit him down to discuss his behavior.

        It’s also not out of the question for you to shut down the behavior either. “That’s not what we’re discussing right now” when he goes “oooh dragons!” or “We need to stay focused on X” when he points out another helicopter. I’m not sure what you can do about the emails other than just delete them and ignore them as best you can, but for situations where he’s present and being a bother.

        Some people are socially unaware. I fully admit to having my own electric stapler moments (it was with a desk scanner) and my coworkers begrudgingly smiled and probably rolled their eyes every time I went “look how cool!” Looking back now as a slightly more professional person I’m embarrassed, but I just thought it was really cool, so didn’t everyone? I wish someone had said “it’s normal, let’s focus on X.”

        As for the three hour meeting – he’s an intern, so he probably doesn’t have *much* to contribute (I’m assuming). If he starts talking about something unrelated, there’s no reason for you (or anyone) not to say “can we go back to X, please?” Obviously you shouldn’t do that with someone above you, but the kid’s gotta learn the hierarchy.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Yeah, I’ve done this–as someone who didn’t get to play with the shiny new tech because it was reserved for managers, I spent a lot of time at Exjob in the beginning just going, “Oh wow,” and learning how to work projectors, etc. (I knew they existed; I’d just never used them).

          1. Other Duties As Assigned*

            It goes the other way with technology, too. At OldJob, I kept one of the company’s last IBM Selectric typewriters next to my desk, since my department worked with a lot of odd-shaped labels and hard copy forms. I had an intern working at the next desk when I had to type an address on an envelope. When I muttered “ack…gotta change the font,” the intern thought I was joking. I showed him my collection of typing elements and he was fascinated with the procedure to swap them out. I used it as a teachable moment, explaining that the introduction of this model provided workplaces with a tremendous boost in efficiency in the pre-computer days, that there are typing elements that allow the typist to use the Dvorak vs. the qwerty keyboard, why the inefficient qwerty layout was developed, etc.

            The best part came when I showed him how the correction key worked. When it actually lifted a letter off the envelope, he thought it was very cool (it IS sort of magical when you first see it). Still, he didn’t e-mail the entire company about it.

        2. jamlady*

          Has to happen. Uncomfortable conversations are a part of it. Like 3 months ago when I had to pull the brand new tech aside and let him know that using phrases at work like “get your boink on” are not appropriate, and even more so not appropriate when addressing your female manager and her male coworker like somehow we’re having an affair – I can’t be responsible for the actions of male coworker if you imply he should be having an affair with his married coworker.

          I swear I thought male coworkers eyes had actually come outside of his head like a Roger Rabbit cartoon.

      2. Tex*

        To increase general maturity, as the person in charge of interns I would make reading the newspaper a requirement. I hope this is a high school intern and not a college kid.

      3. zora*

        This is actually making me kind of sad. He clearly has been vveerryyyyyy sheltered and the more I think about that, the more sad it seems. Would it maybe help you feel less annoyed if you kind of feel bad for him and his being so out of touch?

        1. Chris*

          To be honest my first thought was that this sounds like someone who is on the autism spectrum somewhere. They may always be slightly odd, socially. Be kind in your approach.

          1. Buu*

            I was thinking similar, if so I feel a bit bad for him that he’s going straight into an internship without anyone ever providing him with specialist training. Does the intern have a mentor or boss at the company? If someone lays some clear rules on what to do he may find it easier to cope.

          2. Lab Monkey*

            Maybe, but there’s no good evidence to support that except he’s a little odd, and plenty of us on the spectrum manage to work with fellow adults appropriately – and even read work advice columns. Occam’s razor says he’s just poorly informed, not diagnostically neurodivergent.

      4. Artemesia*

        This. Plus probably a good idea to suggest he read a news magazine like Time at least weekly so that he is more aware of policies that may affect the office or may come up in conversation. Or he could just look at CNN on line each day. Sort of minimal ways to know what is going on in the world.

        I would think he was trolling you all but I have a friend who is an art professor and has students who have no spatial skills. They have a sort of video game view of the world. One had to be told that when opening a padlock, you had to remove it from the hasp and manually open the door — it wouldn’t just swing open itself like in a video game when you punched in the right numbers. She put in the numbers, it didn’t ‘open’ and she had to email the prof for further instructions and was amazed when the instructions worked.

      1. Mimi*

        Some of us walk around with our hair shaped like poofy triangles because we like the look, apparently.

        1. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

          Ha! If I could get mine to de-triangle without spending an hour straightening it, I don’t think I’d ever ask for anything else ever again. My hair looks like the lady in the Dilbert comic more often than not.

            1. Red*

              Lol, I cant have anything but a chin length bob or I start looking stupid! Oh, curly hair, how you confuse me…

            2. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

              I learned that one the hard way. It’s longer now and less triangle-y, but I think I just prefer how straight hair looks on me. I just don’t have the patience to do it.

            3. Meeeeeeeee*

              I need careful cutting of layers to avoid the triangle look. But with those layers and some anti frizz stuff I actually LOVE my curls!

              1. Elizabeth West*

                My mum has curly hair and I got the texture and frizz but not the curl. *sigh* Oh well, it does wave a bit, when I don’t look like the humidity rabbit meme.

                1. Patty the boxy potato*

                  I love that you call your mother “mum.” My children call me that too! They started when British family came to visit. My dad, who’s from PA, also called his mother “mum.”

              1. Audiophile*

                Can someone explain the DevaCut to me, please? I know someone who worked for them and I briefly flirted with the idea of asking her questions, but was too shy to do it. I seriously don’t get it.

                1. Nic*

                  I did a bit of internet searching, but have no personal experience, so ymmv.

                  It appears to be a cut from someone trained specifically to a very high level in how to deal with varieties of curly hair. Basically, a specialist. :D

              2. Renee*

                Essentially each curl is cut separately based on its pattern. Like any other cut, a lot depends on the stylist and your personal hair texture and weight. Mine was decent enough when first done, but looked pretty ragged and asymmetrical within just a few weeks. I’ve found that layers and my hair absolutely do not get along because just trimming a small amount makes my curls spring up a disproportionate amount — a quarter inch trim turns into an inch between layers. The DevaCut is like a lot of individual layers. It’s worth trying if you have curly hair because for some people, it can be fantastic, but for my hair it wasn’t great. My hair looks best one length (my stylist cuts dry to ensure that the ends are mostly even despite any difference in the curl pattern).

            5. Merci Dee*

              i used to have my hair longer, down past my shoulders, in college. I thought it was one of the few ways that I could keep my cork-screw curls under control — by weighing them down some. Then I cut it above shoulder-length when I got pregnant with my daughter, and it’s been getting shorter and shorter ever since. Now, I’ve finally got it at a length that I absolutely love — about six inches, it the curls were pulled out straight. But, of course, they never are, so it just shrinks into a little cap of curls.

              Best things I ever found for my hair were Infusium 23 leave-in conditioner and a good stiff hair gel. I spray the conditioner on and then comb it through. Then I work a dime-sized dollop of gel throughout my hair, and comb again to make sure the leave-in and the gel really mix and coat my hair. Run fingers through to break up the curls, and let it air-dry and go (the mix of conditioner plus gel keeps my hair from getting “crispy” when the gel dries, so it still looks nice and natural). The great thing about using the gel is that, if I get frustrated during the day and run my hands through my hair, I don’t have to worry about being stuck with crazy frizz until I get home. I just dash to the bathroom, wet my hands, run them over my hair, and it re-activates the gel to tame everything down again. And that re-wet trick works as many times as I need it to throughout the day. No more finger-in-a-light-socket look for me!

            6. many bells down*

              I’ve followed my stylist through two moves. It takes me 30 minutes to drive to her now, but it’s a small price to pay to never have poofy triangle hair again!

          2. Red Reader*

            No doubt. Mine defies gravity entirely if it’s less than mid-back-length, so I keep it under control by keeping it in a bun. Constantly. I think the last time I let it down was Wednesday. :P I let it down, finger-combed it, and wrapped it back up and stabbed it with a wooden pin.

            1. Renee*

              I need to learn the magic of the bun. I’ve had short hair for most of my life and now that it’s curly (as a result of pregnancy 14 years ago), I also need to wear it long to have it manageable. Now it’s to my top back, and it takes forever to dry, so I’m self-conscious about wearing it to work wet. I am now queen of the clip, but my hair is becoming mightier than the clip. I work for a manufacturer, so I’d like to have it all pulled up out of the way, but I swear making a bun is like some kind of arcane science to me. It needs to go at least more three more inches in dry length to be suitably tamed so I need to figure it out, because the wet mop is just not going to cut it at work, even if we are pretty casual here. Is there some source of knowledge on how to do these things?

              1. anonstronaut*

                Youtube. There are so many hair related youtube videos that you can watch over and over, showing exactly what steps they are taking.

          3. Kate 2*

            Have you read the book “Curly Girl”? As a curly haired person who didn’t know anyone else with naturally curly hair it really helped me.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          My hair leaves my head and and takes the shortest route straight down no matter what I do to it, so I’m always sort of fascinated by the concept of hair having ‘body’ and not just lying there with limp aggression.

          3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            Oh man, you too? The only “body” mine ever has is static electricity!

            1. Jersey's mom*

              Ah, my aggressively limp hair will occasionally be quite belligerent in the morning. Regardless of the amount or type of hair products I use, it will be stick straight. On the morning I wake late, and don’t have time to wash my hair, invariably it will find the strength and will to defy gravity and stick straight out at odd angles to my head.

            2. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

              I essentially wash, dry, and style my hair and then apply paste through the roots in an attempt for it to do SOMETHING during the day – have body, anything! *sigh* what I wouldn’t give to have just a teeny bit of curl and not essentially glue my hair every day.

            3. Hrovitnir*

              Heh. I only have the tiniest wave (just short of straight), but my hair is next-level thick. Which, yeah, is a good thing I suppose but it means any short (for a woman – works for short with shaved sides) haircut looks ridiculous, I need twice as much of any kind of hair treatment/dye, and products advertising body make me go “pls no. O_O”

          4. calonkat*

            This is the best description I’ve ever seen for this hair type. I used to try to get my hair to curl a bit (the “Farrah Fawcett Flip” was my goal many years ago), and even after professional perms, it would be straight in 20 minutes! My hair is now in a bun (spin pins are awesome), and even that the hair continually escapes from, just to hang limply down. I usually end up looking like a washwoman at the end of a hard workday :P

            1. JustaTech*

              Spin pins are the best things ever! (I have tons of long wavy hair, and it’s great to know they work for other hair types too!)

        3. Anon today...and tomorrow*

          I’m a red head so I spend most of my time resembling Bozo the Clown. Sigh!

      2. justsomeone*

        My best friend’s brother in law thought she hand-curled her ringlets every day. When he found out that her hair was naturally that curly he said, “Oh, I like you a lot better now that I know you’re not that vain.”

        1. many bells down*

          People would always ask me if mine was a perm. “Oh, it’s naturally curly?!” Man, if I’d paid to have this done this on purpose I would hope it would look a LOT better.

      3. Panda Bandit*

        Many, many years ago, I was dating a guy who was absolutely bewildered about how my hair was sometimes curly and sometimes straight.

        1. Fawn*

          Ha! Sometime in the 70’s my grandmother went to a journalism conference in Eastern Europe (Hungary I think?), and was detained for questioning at the passport control because in her passport photo she had curls and in person she didn’t. Eventually she managed to convince them she was the same person (perhaps a bit of bribery was involved…)

    8. Pearl*

      I once worked with someone who believed there were 3 suns and constantly talked about how the earth’s rotation was slowing down, thus affecting the length of a second, which meant that time was slowing down. Her proof of this was that our extremely old analog clock was slow and we had to reset it every month or it would slowly fall several minutes behind the actual time. (See, because scientists can’t hack analog clocks to ‘fool’ them about the earth’s rotation slowing down.)

      I started smiling and nodding a lot. I would keep working and just say nothing. When she didn’t get a response, she would stop talking. That doesn’t help with emails though :( Good luck.

      1. Amber T*

        …what.

        (I used to play bar trivia with a guy who thought we had two moons. When he found out that yes, indeed, we saw the same moon that people in China see… Mind. Blown.)

        1. Pearl*

          There’s apparently an optical illusion sometimes that makes it seem like there are 3 suns. It has something to do with light reflecting off of ice crystals in the air in the winter. Obviously, though, scientists are liars and are hiding the fact that there are 3 suns for us. For fun and profit? I was never clear on why anyone would put energy into that conspiracy.

          (Did he also think the Earth was flat and the Eastern hemisphere was on the opposite side?)

          1. Amber T*

            Oh. Well that makes complete and utter sense.

            Once we convinced him about our one moon, we tried to steer from scientific topics. The funny thing was this kid was a whiz at recalling random facts – I don’t know if he had a photographic memory or something and “learned” we had two moons, so it stuck, but we all thought he was pretty smart. So there was a bit of confusion in explaining it to him.

          2. JeanB*

            I actually have a picture I took one day when it was getting ready to storm that shows three suns (big one in the middle and smaller ones on each side). Best picture I ever took and I just casually snapped it with my iPhone.

              1. copy run start*

                Never seen this before. Puts Stephen King’s “The Sun Dog” into better context….

        2. Meeeeeeeee*

          My boss insisted last week that astronomy is not a real science and doesn’t really use math, and that he is offended when the astronomy department shares a building with the physics department because astronomy doesn’t deserve to be there.
          We checked if he was talking about astrology. Nope. He meant astronomy.
          We asked what he thought it was. “Saying, this planet is here, this planet is there.” We asked how he thought they know where those planets are. “They just look at them!”
          It also took him three tries to correctly identify the moon as ‘a moon’ (his first two tries were ‘a star’ and ‘a planet’ – he did correct himself quickly but still…)

        3. Elizabeth West*

          I read a book once about what would happen if the moon were closer to us, if it were further away, if it were bigger, smaller, if we had two, etc. It was very scientific and I don’t remember much, but basically, life would be difficult.

        4. Artemesia*

          When my children were very young they thought there were two moons — the round one and the slivery one. That seemed like good observation to me, like before they studied science, and sun position, and rotation and stuff.

        1. LizB*

          There’s an awesome science fiction book (The Three-Body Problem by Cixin Liu) that involves a planet with three suns! Based on the book’s description, though, it would very noticeable and not at all pleasant if there were three suns. You wouldn’t need subtle scientists sneakily changing the digital clocks.

      3. David McWilliams*

        But wait — wouldn’t the analog clock end up ahead, if the Earth’s rotation was getting slower and lengthening the days?

    9. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

      Could his supervisor use this as a way to teach him about some professional norms like things that are OK/not OK to email about in the work environment and what/when appropriate work conversation happens? It could be a really benefit to him as he may not realize these things could be a problem for him in the future.

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        And that you can’t interrupt work meetings to talk about things that aren’t work related?

    10. DevAssist*

      He sounds like a time traveler. LOL

      Maybe imagine that he fell through a magic rabbit hole into our world, as a way to amuse yourself and lessen the irritation? I totally agree he sounds irritating and I’d be running out of patience quickly.

      1. introvert*

        ahahaha this comment is my favorite. he DOES sound like a time traveler! or a recently dethawed caveman.

        1. JeanB*

          I’m thinking Blast from the Past. I can totally see Brendan Fraser’s character getting this excited over staplers.

      2. Enya*

        Yeah, I was thinking he sounds like a caveman who got caught up in a time travel experiment and was dumped into 2017. Boy, he is rather clueless!

      3. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I was wondering if he grew up in Amish country or something until I re-read the original comment that said he grew up in the city.

        … full disclosure, I *was* rather excited to discover that electric corkscrews were a thing that existed.

      4. Delightful Daisy*

        Sort of sounds like the character from the movie, “Enchanted”, which I love but I can understand why it’s be annoying in real life. I think you’d be doing him a kindness, OP, if you did clue him in on professional norms.

    11. Bureaucrat with a Side of Coffee*

      This sounds like a more extreme version of my adult roommate. If you feel comfortable, offer some professional mentoring over coffee. Be upfront. “Sometimes you seem to get excited about things that are pretty normal to our office – the helicopter, the electric stapler, etc. I know these things are pretty cool when you first learn about them, but sharing them with an office of people that is already fully aware of them undermines your professional image because it goes against office norms. Try to find a friend external to the organization to share your excitement with so we can focus on work topics at work.”

      2. Clever Name*

        While this is great language, I think the level of this needs to be brought down a few levels for this intern to understand. Maybe he’s just really, really sheltered, but he almost sounds like he may have an intellectual disability?? Or just has a low IQ? I’m honestly baffled.

    12. Gabriela*

      This just made my day. I can’t stop giggling about this. This would drive me so crazy to the point that I might snap and say something super snarky to him. But reading about it second-hand makes me want to take you out for a drink just to hear more.

      1. Purest Green*

        Yes! This is beyond amusing to me second-hand, but I feel like in person I would enjoy this for about a week.

    13. Nan*

      Maybe he comes from a really sheltered, non scientific family, and this is his first foray into the real world. I understand how it could be very annoying, though. Perhaps someone can sit him down, and tell him that although is work is generally good (if that’s true), his office behavior is a bit outside of the norm. Explain that it’s fine to ask questions, but most of what goes on in your office, and the equipment used, is normal, so there is no need to send emails about it.

      Isn’t part of being an intern learning about how “real” jobs work? So try delivering it from a helpful stand point. It will probably be an odd convo, but someone has to help this guy.

      1. Ms. Meow*

        This. I went to college with a girl who grew up in a strict, religious household and didn’t have regular access to tv or the internet. This was the early 2000’s when cell phones were really coming into play, and she was convinced that every girl in our dorm who had a cell phone was either a celebrity or the child of an incredibly wealthy business man. Her naivete was irritating, sure, but it was also interesting to help her learn about things that were boring/mundane/normal in my everyday life.

        I agree that you should sit him down and politely explain that he needs to chill. But seriously, give the kid a break. I wish I could that excited about something as simple as an electronic stapler.

    14. Name (Required)*

      There are things about this that make me think he may be on the autism spectrum. I obviously cant diagnose on the internet and thats not what im trying to do but may there is explanation for the behavior.

      1. RVA Cat*

        I also wondering this. Or, if this is new behavior for him, he’s at the age where symptoms of schizophrenia first appear.

      2. Doodle*

        I’m sure you mean well, but not diagnosing people is actually one of the rules here. It can be stigmatizing and doesn’t actually change the advance for the OP. Thanks! :)

        2. Partly Cloudy*

          Not disagreeing with you or trying to perpetuate rule-breaking, but isn’t someone on the autism spectrum LESS likely to react to stuff with such glee and wonder? Because they internalize it all/don’t point things out because they assume everyone sees them? Okay, stepping down from amateur diagnosing now.

          1. MommaTRex*

            Not necessarily. They don’t necessarily “internalize” it all. Some people on the spectrum lack a filter for what they say aloud.

        3. Nervous Accountant*

          I don’t mean this to derail or be off topic, but I’m actually starting to follow this real in my real life. We have a coworker who has a bit of communication issue (ok that’s an understatement). Communication is a HUGE part of our company and every job here involves that–if you can’t communicate, then this isn’t the place for you. Someone actually did bring up and wondered if cw has some sort of condition, and I said it doesn’t matter, we can’t diagnose that.

          1. MommaTRex*

            I do at least like to keep in mind that some things are more difficult for some people to learn things than others, and/or that they don’t do certain things on purpose – just to keep a sympathetic bent.

      3. Anon today...and tomorrow*

        I once worked with a young woman who was very sheltered. She got her first job at age 18 and I honestly think it was her first time having more than a few minutes exposure to people outside of her immediate family. She was in awe of everything and had really poor social skills. We found out that she and her sibling had been home schooled* and did everything with their parents. Her dad even walked her to and from work…and held her hand like she was a child who might get lost. She used to interrupt meetings, would overshare, argue with our customers about politics, and the last straw for my manager was when she came into work the day after John F Kennedy Jr died in the plane crash and started celebrating it – passing out little trinkets to everyone as if it was a parade. It was a long time ago (obviously, with my JFKJr memory) but I still wonder how she’s fared all these years later.

        *please note: I am not trying to start a home schooling debate. I have no issue with it. She was, of course, an extreme version and since then I’ve encountered lots of home schooled people and not one of them was like this woman was.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Honestly, my first thought was home schooled as well. Not because home schooled = ignorant about technology, but because it’s hard to be that sheltered unless you’re fairly sequestered from society. This would be a home school aberration, but it does seem like it’s the simplest solution.

        2. Nervous Accountant*

          wait…WHAT? What was her reason for actually celebrating JFKjr’s death ???????

          I was extremely sheltered too but…>I don’t know, I never did any of this stuff described here. :-/

          1. Anon today...and tomorrow*

            Her family was very conservative and we lived in Massachusetts (the place we worked was in Faneuil Hall) and politics there are very liberal and for a long time they were very Kennedy. She took a ridiculous amount of glee from his death and didn’t seem to realize that it wasn’t okay. She was honestly shocked and a bit angry that more of us didn’t feel like she did. To this day I’m not completely sure if she was let go or if she quit over this.

            1. Artemesia*

              Wow JFK JR. was not a politician and people had no reason to have this kind of reaction. I can understand being happy if a politician you detested died – not that ‘celebrating’ in a workplace would ever be appropriate — but the child of a politician? That is beyond inappropriate and creepy.

        3. AMT*

          I was homeschooled in a rural area and fairly isolated. You’re spot-on about this. I have never caught up on the pop culture of the ’90s and early 2000s. My word choices occasionally baffle people. I still have weird fears about people visiting and seeing the state of my (perfectly clean) house, because my parents were also hoarders/clutterers. My ability to make eye contact took years to recover. No one understands why visiting my parents (whom I love!) brings back unpleasant memories. There are tons of tiny things about my life that people with normal childhoods take for granted. And I’m one of the people who got out and became successful and happy.

          1. Anon today...and tomorrow*

            I’m sorry. :( I once worked with another person who wasn’t allowed to watch TV or movies as a child and so he missed just about every pop culture reference in conversation. He hated that! He was a supervisor and super smart but I remember this huge multi-department meeting where we did this Price is Right themed game and he didn’t understand why we all thought it was great or how we all knew the rules to the games. We don’t realize how pervasive those pop culture references are in our lives until we don’t get them.

            1. Nic*

              I am much like the person you used to work with, except it wasn’t that I wasn’t allowed to (in most cases) I was just far too nerdy. I watched documentaries and could tell you all about hissing cockroaches or something, but I still have yet to see Star Wars, and I’m 34.

              While I’m generally content with my lack of pop culture indoctrination, people are startled and in some cases drastically upset by my total oblivion to references sometimes. I find it funny more often than I find it annoying.

        4. Panda Bandit*

          Well, the homeschooling was not the problem. Her extreme helicopter parents are the problem.

        5. Medical Student*

          Absolutely not trying to start a debate or pile-on, but as a former homeschooler (Pre-K – 12th), I would just like to vouch that all of “us” are not sheltered, socially unaware individuals. My parents were incredibly intentional about my and my sister’s educations and took careful pains to expose us to politics, arts, science, etc. Both my sister and I graduated from liberal arts universities with honors. She is now working overseas, and I will be graduating from medical school in May. Done correctly homeschooling is a incredible opportunity to foster an environment of active learning and curiosity. Unfortunately, the examples of homeschooling that are most people tend to think of are those kids/young adults who have been sequestered away and who struggle in the “real world.” Again, not trying to start a debate. Just wanted to offer an opinion from the “other side.” :)

          1. Gadfly*

            Just the general humanity DIY ratios seem to be 10% max do it well, maybe 20% more do okay, 40% do it wrong in some obvious/measurable way and 30% light things on fire.

            More seriously, I wish there were better records kept regarding this, but a lot of states actually have rules against it. And the problems will stick out more. It is hard to tell what percentage benefit from it and which are hurt from it because the data just isn’t there. I grew up in UT, and so a big example there were polygamous kids being homeschooled and then at about 12 put to work as part of it. A lot of them end up illiterate and so very dependent on their church for work or forced to agree to marrying who they are told for not just themselves but for the sake of the whole family. And UT doesn’t monitor homeschooling at all to see if anything is being taught.

            I think, if there were some basic regulations (like the kids have to show some progress in basic skills) there would be a lot less of a belief it is all bad. But the large homeschooling groups always fight any sort of testing requirements or check-ins.

            1. Hey Nonnie*

              I’d be curious to learn how this homeschooling business WORKS, when it does work. By the time I hit middle school, my parents were no longer able to help me with my math homework. I was in a variety of AP classes in high school. My parents didn’t have the level of knowledge in all of those subjects to be able to teach me at anywhere near the level of teachers who were trained and specialized in their particular topics. If I had had to rely on my parents’ knowledge alone, I would have been bored out of my mind and very ill-prepared for life beyond high school. I’m just not seeing how people without any teaching degrees or expertise in any of the multiple topics that make up a pre-university education — much less all of them — can impart enough knowledge for their kids to even survive college.

              This, entirely aside from the social isolation (and often, homeschooling used as a means to AVOID teaching basic things like science and sex ed), is what makes me deeply skeptical of the whole thing. There’s a reason that teachers specialize in a field of study after elementary-school level. So how on earth does a homeschooler give a kid a comprehensive education when you don’t know most of what you’d need to teach?

              1. Gadfly*

                From what I’ve seen, now it usually is combined with online schooling and tutors to make it work.

          2. Someone*

            Well, you have to admit that homeschooling makes it much easier to completely shelter children from the outside world.
            It does not cause sheltering, as such, but it makes it possible to push the sheltering and limiting of contact to extreme levels.

    15. Jessesgirl72*

      Are people interrupting his tangents? Who is responsible for supervising/directing him? That person, or anyone senior enough, needs to firmly stop the tangents as soon as they start, and coach him that work things need to be the primary focus of work discussions. And yes, tell him not to email everyone about things that aren’t work related- and probably not to CC the entire office about anything that isn’t directly told to do so, because it’s part of a task he’s been given. (Since the stapler, he might consider to be work related)

    16. Crazy Squirrel Lover*

      I am so sorry that you are dealing with this. I used to have a co-worker that believed they were kidnapped by aliens and that the same aliens were spying on them. This co-worker also had a theory that the government was slowly replacing people with robots.

      Good luck with that 3 hour meeting!

      1. Batshua*

        I had an ex-coworker tell me that our deaf coworker was spying on her with her hearing aids and reporting it all to the boss.

        I … did not know what to say to that.

    17. Havarti*

      Wow, I’ve encountered folks who have a puppy-like level of enthusiasm and wonder but this guy has raised the bar! Isn’t the point of interning so you can learn how to function in a workplace? Who does he report to? Someone really needs to talk to him or they will do a disservice to both intern and the workplace.

    19. La Revancha del Tango*

      LOL wow this guy is clueless. I would spin it positively in the sense that you’ll have a great story to tell.

    20. Scarlott*

      Haha, this is great stuff. Enjoy him while he’s there. Maybe have a sit down about not interrupting people or sending e-mails that don’t need to be sent to the whole office about staplers and helicopters. TBH I was really far behind on current events when I was in school.

    21. Lo*

      I am still relatively early in my career. I desperately wish that someone had clued me in DIRECTLY about office norms and culture. I pick things up quickly, but the embarrassing memories of stupid things I did in early internships and jobs will haunt me.

      Please Please Please tell him. Ask him to get coffee, or grab lunch, or even have a check in meeting…. and TELL HIM. Unless he’s a trash person, he’ll appreciate it.

      1. AnonAnalyst*

        Yeah, I kind of feel bad for the guy. He’s going to have a rough go of things as he gets out into the professional world. Especially since he’s an intern and presumably there to learn, I think it would be appropriate (and a great kindness) to pull him aside and tell him some of this stuff is just Not Done. And stop letting him derail conversations (easier said than done, I know!)

        Not that this is necessarily No Name For This’ job. His supervisor should be doing it, but since it seems like he is dragging everyone else into these derails and flights of fancy with new office discoveries, I think it’s fair game for anyone to do it once they hit BEC stage.

    22. PB*

      Oh dear. This is almost charming, but I certainly wouldn’t think so if I were the person dealing with him. I’m sorry.

    23. Former Retail Manager*

      There are some great suggestions here for polite, professional wording when his supervisor speaks to him, but quite frankly, if he’s this far in left field, I’d be blunt and borderline harsh. His behavior thus far makes me wonder if he would really pick up on/understand what people are saying. I’d come armed with a long list of these specific examples and not only tell him that he shouldn’t have done them/shouldn’t have overreacted, but tell him what would be an appropriate reaction (where applicable) to these situations. For example, I don’t think it’s a big deal to say “oh wow, an electric stapler. That’s cool. Never seen one.” But his videoing it and emailing the entire office was inappropriate. This sounds like a person that needs to be told exactly what to do and not do. I would also tell him that if he continues this sort of behavior at his next real job (not internship) he likely won’t be employed for long. I know OP is annoyed, but she is also in a unique position to be able to really help someone who it sounds like needs an abundance of help.

      1. strawberries and raspberries*

        I had a 30-year-old former co-worker who would do things like this, and it was not cute. I think on some level he knew what he was doing, because if he could act as weird as possible and wear you down with it, eventually you may not notice that he wasn’t actually doing any work. It did not end well for him- we got a new manager with a much more direct management style, and when he tried it on her he got his ass handed to him and was terminated shortly thereafter. You’d be doing this kid a huge favor to be blunt and to the point about why acting like this is not professional or acceptable.

    24. Important Moi*

      I am not saying it’s right, but is it possible that this intern has connections? It’s unfair but you may be stuck with him. Limit your interactions as best you can and good luck.

    25. nbbuyer*

      Preface: I did not read all of the comments below, so this may have already come up.

      I am not pretending to be a doctor, but I would just like to suggest that while that does sound immensely, over-the-top weird and annoying, my oldest son has Autism Spectrum Disorder, and common social interactions tend to be a rather alien concept to people on the spectrum.

    26. Office Plant*

      Give him the benefit of the doubt. More than that. Be kind to him. This stuff is unusual enough that it’s probably not the result of choices he made. It sounds like he either thinks very differently than most people or his family kept him very sheltered. He’s probably facing a lot of challenges in life because of this, or may later on. Don’t add to that. Either keep your distance or try to be helpful. When you feel irritated, remember that he’s just a fellow human being whose experiences are different from your own.

    27. no more interns*

      If this helps you feel better, you are not alone. We have an intern that is similar and we are stuck with him because the owner of my company is a friend of his father’s and nepotism is alive and well in 2017. In our case the intern has some developmental challenges which accounts for some of his behavior but it’s time consuming to work with him when he doesn’t have the background or knowledge to add value in our very technical field.

    28. Bonky*

      We had an awful, awful intern, in a part of the company that I am not closely involved with. Again, she tried hard, but she had no understanding of office norms or professionalism, could barely string a sentence together and kept doing APPALLING things like giving quotes to the press without the communications department knowing about it; sending mass emails to clients which were unreadable for all the typos and full of downright stupid factual mistakes; and telling – not asking – executives in the company to do things for her. A lot of this was down to the fact that the woman managing her…wasn’t managing her.

      Her contract ran out at the end of last month, but I remember that around Christmas I was ready not just to burn a bunch of political capital and demand she get fired, but also very close to resorting to murder. When I found out her contract only had a couple of months left to run, I kept my powder dry and just did what I could to shield the people who work for me from the damage she was doing, while bearing in mind that this would reflect horribly on the non-manager. The two and a bit months went remarkably quickly, and I am glad I did not resort to murder. But it was a close thing. You have my sympathy.

      (Generally, in situations like this which have a fixed end-point, I ask myself: “Will it still matter in a year?” If it won’t, it’s probably best to put up with whatever it is and keep your political capital intact.)

      1. Drew*

        You have intriguing ideas about picking your battles and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

        This is something I’ve been working on for myself and am starting to do some “managing up” for my bosses who are not modeling appropriate levels of workplace venting. I have deployed “Do we actually have any power to CHANGE the situation, or should we accept that the situation is what it is and figure out how to move forward from here?” more times in the past three months than I want to think about.

        I don’t know if it’s helping them any, but it’s gotten me through some tough times and I’m feeling more positive about work and keeping my eye on goals instead of missed milestones means that I’m a lot more productive than I used to be. Ironically, this all came about because a big project I was looking forward to starting this year got indefinitely postponed in January – “eyes on the prize” was the only way I kept myself from total despair.

    30. AcademiaNut*

      It sounds like he doesn’t just need hints, but a concentrated effort on the part of his both and others to explain basic norms and then shut him down when he breaks them.

      So telling him that he is not to send company wide emails about *anything*, for any reason, or non-work related emails to *anyone* would be a good start. And telling him that he needs to stay on topic at meetings and other work discussions. Then, when he goes off on a tangent, whoever is running the meeting can say “Fergus, snakes are not relevant to the discussion. We need you to get back on topic.” Then if he keeps on with the snakes and aliens, he’s kicked out of the meeting if necessary, so he isn’t getting in the way of other people doing their work.

      I’d disagree with the upper management that he can’t be fired because he does his basic tasks and isn’t hostile. It sounds like he’s taking up a considerable amount of other employees’ time and mental energy with his tangents and enthusiasms, to the point that people dread interacting with him. It makes for a great story, but I can see how having to deal with this repeatedly would have you climbing the walls. It’s also better that he be pulled up sharp on a short term internship, rather than being fired from his first real job.

    31. JKP*

      As you describe your intern’s giddy enthusiasm for each of his new discoveries (An electronic stapler! What will you humans think of next!), and his bizarre tangents about snakes and aliens and knights and dragons, I have this clear picture of the 10th Doctor as your intern. Of course, if that were true, those irrelevant conversational tangents would be distracting you while he implemented his plan to stop the alien invasion.

    32. Lemon*

      Yikes. While it’s certainly not the most egregious part of your comment, the thing about not knowing about naturally curly hair really got me. That is advanced sheltered.

      2. many bells down*

        Yeah, at first I thought it was just a bit funny, because people ask me if mine’s natural a lot but … I’m white. So then I wondered, has this guy never seen a black person? Does he think they spend hours curling it like that?

    33. AnonAcademic*

      I had an intern who was almost as bad as this. Her daily uniform was an oversized tshirt or sweatshirt with a large cartoon character on it (mickey mouse, sailor moon, etc.) and oversized grey sweat pants, which on her looked more like pajamas than clothes. Her hair was usually unwashed and gave off an odor. She sniffled loudly every few minutes all day. She would giggle in response to just about everything – simple requests, corrections, etc. One time a product rep gave out toys with their logo that made a sound when you squeezed them and she sat at her desk squeezing it over and over until asked to stop.

      The thing is, while she was tremendously annoying and also not very responsive to corrective feedback, I eventually strongly suspected that she was dealing with mental health issues that explained most of the odd behavior (poor hygiene, lack of motivation, inappropriate affect). What I wish I’d done differently is be more direct about rules and consequences earlier, including her potential dismissal, but also ask if everything was ok and if she was open to it, referred her to some resources. I don’t know if she would have been ready to accept help, but when I consider that she might have been barely holding herself together to get to work, OR socially immature to the point that she could not follow work norms, she was someone who clearly needed help of some kind beyond what a work environment could provide.

    34. New Window*

      Lots of people have given good, constructive advice, so I won’t try to add to that.

      I have but one request: PLEASE keep us updated with stories. These are gold.

    37. Not So NewReader*

      Can you check in with his school to see if he can get further assistance in acclimating to the work place in general?

      Is anyone mentoring him, or is everyone just talking about how weird he is? I have seen this where people talk about the problem and assume someone else it talking to the individual. Meanwhile, the individual has no clue and no one is talking with them.

      Hopefully, more than one person is mentoring him. Hopefully, you can get him some remedial level help in acclimating. I know companies are not there to fix everything that is going on, however if his school has the heads up maybe something can be done there.

      The hinting needs to stop because in his world those hints are meaningless. Direct explanations are what is needed here. (FWIW, I don’t do well with hints, I much prefer clear explanations, if possible use examples. My excuse is that I am aging and I do not want to wait 20 years to get what someone is saying.)

      If I were working with him I would try to target three behaviors a week. “Bob, this week’s goal is to get control over A, B and C.” Then break it down with explanations. I would pick the behaviors that seem to be the most noticed or the most over done.

      One of the themes I see here is that he finds out something new and repeats himself over and over to everyone. Here I would encourage him to say it once and then that is the end of it. NO going around and telling others, no emailing, no pictures, etc. Say it once and then move on.

      Naturally curly hair. I have to chuckle. Working has caused me to learn so many little side things that I never would have learned any other way. Things that perhaps others take for granted, but there are still quite a few people like me who had never heard of it before.
      We have to be quiet sponges.
      This means we quietly soak up all this new learning without burdening people with our running commentary. This is a life-long skill and worthwhile learning. I would tell him that in the work place he will encounter many, many things that he did not know before. Soak up the education quietly. Explain to him that as the years roll by concepts like naturally curly hair will become more the norm to him. Meanwhile, he needs to limit his comments on these subjects that are new-to-him.

      So target three things a week. He will either catch on and blow everyone away with his willingness to adapt OR he will become overwhelmed and quit. This is how these stories play out. I have one story of a person who just became so overloaded that she called the boss at midnight (closing time) to come down and help. When the boss arrived, he found an incredible mess. She was in tears, she just could not acclimate to the job. Some people don’t make it but some do. In my experience the ones I think will make it, don’t and the ones I think won’t make it, do. It’s really hard to guess the outcome.

      1. Nic*

        I really like the idea of only working with a few behaviors at a time. My family did this when a close friend from another country visited and asked for help with the language. Instead of a barrage of correcting EVERYTHING that was said wrong, we’d pick one thing (subject/noun agreement, for example). We’d do our best to catch every example where subject/noun did not agree, but let everything else slide. The next day we’d work on something else.

        We also asked her for feedback on what she’d like to work on, which could work in this guy’s situation if you gave several examples of quirks of his to pick from. He may find some easier than others.

    38. Imaginary Number*

      He sounds annoying but at the same time I also desperately want to meet this person.

    39. Imaginary Number*

      I was thinking about this and wondering if the whole extreme-nativity thing is a bit affected. I know when I was in middle school I had it in my head (whenever I would go somewhere where I didn’t know anyone like camp) that I needed to make myself “interesting” like a loveable TV character with particular quirks. I would create little personas for myself (which obviously never worked out and usually just made it even harder to make friends.) Granted, this was like … 7th grade, not an intern in college, but is it possible that’s what this guy is doing? He thinks that in order to make an impact as an intern he has to play a particular role?

    40. 100mph Penguin*

      Okay. One thing stood out at me that has nothing to do with Mr. Dragon there:

      You have a three-hour meeting.

      Three. Hours. That you will not get back. Think about that.

      Nevermind that management is ignoring a big behaviour problem, it *has* a big behaviour problem. It can’t plan worth a tinker’s damn. (Now, if this is training, that’s different, but that’s not what you said…)

      Venting is good. Finding a better situation is better. I learnt that one the hard way.

    41. Chaordic One*

      Back at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd., because we were an international corporation we often had employees and interns from the third world countries where we had some of our factories. They experienced quite the culture shock when they came to the U.S. The people were all quite intelligent, but needed a lot more hand-holding and explaining of things (like social customs) than your typical employee. We worked very hard to be patient with them. It would certainly be odd to have someone who grew up in the same town as your company and hadn’t experienced these things before.

      OTOH, there was also the culture shock from employees and interns from other first world countries. (You have to pay for your own health insurance? You don’t have paid childcare or paid maternity leave? You have to pay for your college education?)

    42. Freya UK*

      Honestly, he sounds like a breath of fresh air to me – I’m sick of working with jaded, cynical people who consider themselves ‘informed’…

      On a practical level, as others have said, it would be a kindness to teach him things like not emailing the whole office when he discovers something new, but please, please don’t do it in such a way that it crushes his passion and joy – he has an open heart and open mind and those are qualities increasingly lacking in supposedly ‘civilised’ society.

      Send him to me, I’ll take him on a visit to Old/ToxicJob and he can meet a real dragon!

      1. Nic*

        I’m with you on the breath of fresh air. I’ve always had a thing about loving to experience things with others who are experiencing them for the first time….the wonder and joy is incredible, and helps with jadedness.

        That being said it’s got to be frustrating to work with! I hope like you said the LW can find a kind way to let him know the norms without breaking that heart.

    43. Sally O'Malley*

      Do you think it’s possible this guy’s pranking your office? Maybe even writing a blog or Reddit or something regaling his followers with his antics and the reactions they garner? Or possibly purposely trying to seem weird or even challenged so not much work is expected from him? Just trying to grasp this. I can’t imagine anyone not knowing about medical helicopters and curly hair no matter how sheltered, especially since he grew up in a skyscraper in a large city. I live in the po-dunkiest of po-dunk towns, and Medflight flies over my house at least once a week.

  2. anon for this*

    I need some advice on whether my complaints as outlined below are legit enough to tell my manager or if it sounds like I’m at a BEC, tattling stage. (Sorry, it’s so long)

    I’m a Teapot Producer. My coworker, Ryan, is a Senior Teapot Producer. TPs work with production while STPs work with the sales team, but don’t produce. Ryan has no managerial sway over me. He sends me projects from the sales team and I send him the finished result to deliver back to the sales team. Management gave STPs the “senior” title because they thought working with sales was “harder” than making the actual products.

    Ryan really, really, REALLY wants to be a manager. He talks a big game about how he should have been made the Teapot Team Lead over our manager, Nick, who is, despite his faults, a good manager at the end of the day.

    Ryan has been talked to every one of the four years he’s worked here for being micro-managy and annoying TPs to the point that some of them don’t want to work with him. He doesn’t want to let go of his projects to TPs and acts like he has all the knowledge and is the manager of the TP he assigns projects to. Things like calling them “my TP” or “I’ll address this with my TP” or when both of us are on an email chain, he’ll reply all and say, “Anon, can you do this for Jess?” even though I’m on the email chain as well and am capable of reading and responding without his input.

    Basically, he treats TPs like they’re his employees. He’s the only STP who does this, and it’s mostly to TPs who are women. He’s not as overbearing and micro-managing with the male TPs. I thought this was getting better, but it turns out he’s focused his micro-managing less on the projects people have with him and more on everything else in the work life.

    We’ve had layoffs and been re-orged lately and he’s been frantic that his “key accounts” will be taken away (he doesn’t have any of our key accounts – other STPs do) and has repeatedly said that if they realign so TPs and STPs do the same job, it’ll be a demotion for him to have to start doing projects instead of overseeing projects (which again, he doesn’t oversee, he just hands them off and manages expectations with the field based on status updates he’s told by TPs).

    He’s been going around saying that our department VP and Director have told him how we’re realigning, that TPs would never get promoted, why certain people were laid off, and a bunch of other stuff about how they think it’s unprofessional that people work from home or take vacation during our busier months. The thing is, our VP and Director have said they don’t know how we’re being reorged yet, and the issue about WFH or vacations is HIS issue.

    He likes to say that people abuse it by WFH more than one day even though those days are always approved by a manager, and he’ll chat them throughout the day to “check” that they’re actually online and working. And he says that it’s unprofessional to take vacation during our busy period and the managers should know better than to approve it. He has NO say in any of this. It’s just him spouting off his speculations or personal thoughts as fact.

    He’s never said any of this to me directly, but I’ve heard him say it on phone calls to the sales team or to other people on my team. Is it out of line for me to tell my manager that Ryan is saying our VP and Director have singled him out to tell him a bunch of things? Logically, I know they would never tell him before they’d tell their own direct subordinates or the managers. Ryan just like to pretend like he has all the info so it makes him look good for a potential management position.

    I guess I don’t know if this will come off as me being a tattler or looking petty because I feel like he’s undermining management. And I don’t really think it’s okay for a coworker to keep track of everyone’s WFH status or time off when those days are approved by managers. Some of my coworkers, both TPs and STPs, say they feel bad telling a manager or think it’s ganging up to focus only on him when talking to management, or say “but he just cares so much” or “he’s good at his job” as an excuse. Which leaves me feeling at a loss about what to do.

    1. NW Mossy*

      You definitely have a good opening to talk with Nick (whom I assume manages both you and Ryan) and say “I’ve heard Ryan saying a number of things about what’s happening with our reorganization that are inconsistent with what the VP and Director have been saying. I’m having a hard time figuring out what’s true, or even what’s reasonable for us to know about it right now. Can you help me sort this out?”

      The WFH/vacation stuff is ridiculous, but ignorable. Ryan spouting off what are almost certainly ill-founded rumors about high-level organizational decisions is a bigger deal because of its impact on morale and the overall messaging in a time of big changes, so definitely something Nick should be aware of.

      1. anon for this*

        Thanks, that’s probably how I’ll phrase it. It’s not the first time Ryan has done something like this, though last time he said Nick said something about layoffs that was not in any way true.

        I think the speaking for other people was bothering me, but the WFH/vacation stuff pushed me over the edge.

    2. Beth*

      If you’re uncomfortable with the idea of telling your manager Ryan is doing all this, then phrase it as a question. “Hey Manager, I’ve been hearing a lot from Ryan about ___, ____, and ___. He seems pretty confident in his information, but it doesn’t match what I’m hearing from you. Can you clarify which is more accurate?” That gets it on your manager’s radar without being tattle-tale-y, and also maybe gets you information.

    3. Jessesgirl72*

      I think you should say something.

      When companies reorganize, they often use that opportunity to shed themselves of people like Ryan.

    4. LucyUK*

      As the person who managed the internal comms side of a big restructure last year where our culture changed to some extent and we had a lot of layoffs, I would want someone to be getting on top of this big time. It’s stressful for everyone, especially when the details aren’t nailed down yet, but having individuals spewing out a firehose of bad/wrong/inconsistent information because they’re personally nervous (or have personally way over-estimated their own importance and are stating their opinions as fact, which sounds like more of the issue here) can be a huge distraction from the consistency of the actual message and plan.

      If this were me right now I would be seeing Ryan as a big project risk and asking someone who he should definitely be listening to to get on top of it – asking him to stop spreading rumours and misinformation at a sensitive time, proactively communicating to other employees (to the extent that you can when working with uncertainty) that the things he said do not reflect the attitudes/policy of the people actually making the decisions, basically doing a round of damage control on the mess that he is trying to make with his big mouth.

      I’m lucky in that my organisation values slick-but-human comms, so I always got listened to in the room when stuff like this came up – if you know anyone with enough clout and good sense to either fix this themselves or talk to someone who can fix it, please do. For the benefit of the people who are being told stuff that’s just plain wrong by this guy during a period of uncertainty. (I’d also add that just because you’ve got a decent read on this guy and don’t really trust him doesn’t mean that everyone else feels the same – he might have undue influence with some people and they might believe what he’s saying is true.)

      1. anon for this*

        The thing I’m worried about is that he doesn’t respect Nick, partially because Nick used to be a STP before he was promoted to Team lead and partially because Ryan thinks he could do a better job as a manager than Nick. So all the times Nick has talked to him before have just been ignored by Ryan. I think the only person he’d listen to criticism from at this point is our VP, but I don’t think it’s my place to tell Nick to tell our VP to talk to Ryan.

        He’s spread rumors before and been talked to without any official punishment other than a slap on the hand. It’s really rumors from saying the Director judges anyone who WFH (when our director works from home half the week and said we were allowed to as well) to saying all this stuff about the reorg.

        I guess I’m less concerned with him getting in trouble (though a formal HR warning or something serious would maybe make him stop acting like this), and more worried about some of the people in my department who are prone to panicking if they heard these rumors he’s spouting.

        1. designbot*

          Then that’s the way I’d couch this, that you’re concerned about the impact of these rumors on team moral/confidence. I would ask that you all get updated together on what’s going to happen so that nobody has privileged information over the rest of the team (*coughryancough*). That way everybody’s on the same page, and if you hear any of his nonsense going forward you can be like “Yes, Nick already told us about how things will be handled, so I think we’re all clear on it. Thanks.”

        2. Not So NewReader*

          One person I know of was talking negatively about the boss and finally said that they could do a better job than the boss. That person was fired on the spot when the boss heard that.

    5. CoffeeLover*

      What he’s doing is a big deal when it comes to org changes. I bet management would love to know who’s been spreading rumours and misinformation. It makes their job of maintaining moral and managing the change A LOT harder. Your manager would definitely want to know who’s making his job harder. It’s very useful information to have and it can be difficult to pinpoint who the trouble-maker is from up top.

      Others have provided good scripts for addressing this. Honestly, depending on your relationship with your manager and his involvement in the org changes (i.e., he’s playing an active role in the changes which is probably the case), I would straight up say: “I just wanted to give you a heads up that Ryan has been creating and spreading a lot of rumours about the changes happening such as X, Y and Z. I know you want to manage the kind of information that’s flying around about this, so I just wanted to let you know.” Your manager would take it from there. (If I was in his position I’d be pretty pissed off a senior person thought this was appropriate behaviour.)

      The other issues you have with Ryan seem to be ongoing and should probably be addressed in a separate conversation after the org has cooled down… assuming Ryan is still there ;).

      1. anon for this*

        Thanks, everyone has been providing good scripts! While I know my manager would take it seriously, I’m a bit cynical about anyone else doing anything. There’s been several sexual harassment claims over the years towards other coworkers and management has pretty much brushed those aside, so if they took almost four years to lay off (not fire) someone who had multiple sexual harassment allegations against him, I doubt they’re going to do anything about Ryan spreading rumors and pretending to be a manager.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Sad to say, but sometimes people are more motivated when it is happening to them personally. This is something that is being done to management directly.

    6. BuildMeUp*

      For what it’s worth, Ryan is not actually good at his job. Not if he’s wasting this much time micromanaging and making himself feel like a big shot. And I doubt this is all coming from a place of caring, either.

      Do you have a good/close enough relationship with your department VP that this could come up in casual conversation with them? If you do, it sounds like bringing it up directly to them has the best chance of something actually being done. Otherwise, definitely talk to Nick.

  3. Fibro fighter*

    I’ve really been struggling with my job lately. I have fibromyalgia and have been going through a bad flare for over a month now. But even before this current flare I was having a tough time. I’m exhausted, having difficulty focusing, deeply depressed, and in constant pain. My work quality and speed has been declining for a while and I’m having a hard time meeting deadlines.

    I work from home which affords me some additional flexibility. On days when I normally wouldn’t be able to drive to an office, I can still work from the comfort of my home. But I still have times I’m too sick to work. I had to call in sick 5 times this month.

    After the first two absences I decided to tell my manager about the fibromyalgia because, even though she hasn’t said anything, I think it’s noticeable that my work is slipping. I also had a lot of absences this year and I wanted her to understand I wasn’t just calling in for a sniffle. She didn’t have much reaction other than to just say she hopes I feel better. I have not told her about the issues people with fibromyalgia face so I’m not sure how much she really understands. I have told her about some of the treatments I’m doing in the hope it’ll help her understand that I’m trying to combat this.

    I have my yearly review coming up and I’m really worried about it. I know I’m going to be asked to evaluate myself and I’ll be getting feedback from coworkers. I’m worried they’re going to say I’ve dropped the ball in a number of places…which I have.

    How should I handle this? Should I just be honest and own that I haven’t been a stellar employee or is that shooting myself in the foot? Should I mention that the health issue has impacted me and that I’m dealing with it? Or should I focus on the positives (of which there aren’t many) and risk looking oblivious to my own performance issues?

    I’m also wondering if I should send my manager some articles about fibromyalgia but I’m not sure if that is just too much.

    1. AlexandrinaVictoria*

      If you’ve been at your job for over a year and your company is large enough, I would talk with your doctor about getting intermittant FMLA. This will protect your job through numerous absences. That might put your mind at rest about missing work, at least. As for the rest, be honest. I have rheumatoid arthritis and deal with many of the same symptoms. I sympathize!

      2. Fibro fighter*

        I didn’t even know that was an option. I will definitely talk to my doctor about that. I think it would help me feel better about it.

        1. LavaLamp*

          Talk to your HR first and get the packet of paperwork and take it with you when you see your doctor. A lot of times they don’t fax things to the right places or forget about them so it’s easier to do that in your appointment.

          I’ve got chronic pain and fatigue so I myself use intermittent fmla and it’s a godsend. I’m sending you gentle hugs cuz I know how shitty diseases like ours are. You’re strong, and you’ll make it.

          I also found an excellent app to track symptoms and fatigue and all that fun stuff the other day if you want to take a loot at it. Its a good way to see trends like ‘oh it’s snowing. Now wonder I feel like I got attacked by an F350’
          It’s called MyPainDiary2. It’s 5$ but I’m sure there are free options on the AppStore.

          1. Jerry Vandesic*

            In addition to FMLA, the OP might want to invoke ADA and ask for an accommodation. Based on your wording above, your telling your manager about your condition and her response does not change your work circumstances. At this point, your employer does not need to adjust how you work or any expectations that they have for you. If you want that to change, you need to EXPLICITLY ask for an accommodation based on the Americans with Disability Act. Once you use those words (“accommodation,” “ADA”), the HR department will need to formally respond to your request. If you want to go down this path, make sure you do your research beforehand, and know what accommodations you are asking for. Good luck.

            1. Fibro fighter*

              I have already said something to her about the only accommodation I was asking for was to be able to attend my doctors appointments. But I guess I might need to rephrase that. I am not sure what accommodations I could even ask for so I’ll have to look into that.

              1. misspiggy*

                Some accommodations I’ve asked for and got in a similar situation have been working shorter hours some days and longer hours others; attending meetings by phone instead of in person, often at short notice; travelling to and from work later than normal hours to avoid the rush hour; and taking time off at short/no notice without it being sick or annual leave, as long as I make the time up and it doesn’t disrupt my workload.

                1. Fibro fighter*

                  Ok. Those sound reasonable. Many of them I already do since I work at home. I don’t need to go to an office and all my meetings are over the phone. But I think it would be really helpful to be able to work shorter hours some days and longer on other days. I think they would agree to that because my hours are already somewhat flexible.

                  I also like the idea of being able to make up my hours. I would be willing to do that and would actually prefer it. But my manager has some weird hangups about things like that. I tend to have to take sick time if I take off but I haven’t specifically asked if I can avoid that by making up for it. Plus in some cases, I don’t need a whole day off. Sometimes I feel sick just in the morning and other times I wake up strong and struggle towards the end of the day. If I could not take a whole sick day I would be less likely to call in sick for the whole day.

              2. Amy*

                I think usually you need to talk to HR about accommodations, not your manager. I wouldn’t assume that anything you’ve discussed with her is formally set up as an accommodation, unless the actual process at your specific organization says to do it that way.

                I would suggest talking to your doctor or other people with fibro about what possible accommodations could be.

              3. GOG11*

                The Job Accommodation Network has a page on fibromyalgia, including limitations and possible accommodations. I’d highly recommend checking it out.

                1. Cheshire Cat*

                  Thank you for this! I had never heard of it, so decided to look it up. And found that migraines (which I have) are listed, & one of the suggested accommodations is a glare-free filter for computer monitors — which I’m going to ask for next week. And there are a couple of others that would mean that I could use less sick time (telework and comp time). So thanks again for mentioning the site!

              4. Jerry Vandesic*

                Just make sure you phrase it correctly. It’s not an accommodation for fibromyalgia, it’s an accommodation for your disability which is covered by the Americans with Disability Act. I have seen HR people and managers play word games about this, and lawyers have told me that the words can be critical in determining your edibility for the accommodation.

                Also, put it all in writing. The request for the accommodation needs to be put down on paper, and acknowledged by your employer.

          2. Fibro fighter*

            Good idea to contact HR first. I will do that. I’m sure they can help guide me. Luckily I work for a really great company and they are very much health first. So I think they will easy to work with.

            Also, I use MyPainDiary! It’s great. I think I have the original, not #2, so I’m going to go look for the upgrade. But it has been very helpful keeping track of my pain. Although, sometimes the pain is so overwhelming I don’t know where to stop or start.

            Thanks for the gentle hugs. Right back at you!

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I’d guess that you’re creating added stress deciding if you should say something to your boss and worrying if your co-workers are noticing a drop in productivity. I’d talk to your boss just so you can get it out there and reduce your stress levels. The worrying about work could be making the pain worse and then you get stuck in a cycle of more stress = more pain. Hopefully, everyone will understand and you’ll be feeling better soon.

      1. Fibro fighter*

        You are so right. I am stressing about it and it’s causing so much anxiety but I guess that can contribute to pain too. I always feel better when I talk about things which is why I’ve been contemplating just being upfront about it and why I ultimately explained the reasons for my absences. To be honest, I always have trouble determining the line between appropriate amounts of information and TMI. Any thought about how I could word it?

        1. AndersonDarling*

          I have a good relationship with my manager, but not on a personal level. In my case, I’d say “I don’t know if you have noticed my work slipping, but I have fibromyalgia and I’ve been having a flare up. Normally I can keep everything balanced and in check, but I’ve been having a hard time recently. I just wanted you to know what is going on. I should be back to my regular self soon.” Then wait to hear the response. 9 times out of 10 the response will be sympathy and support.
          BTW- I’m a LMT and I’ve been hearing of fibro patients using those cellulite busting tools to loosen fascia and help with the fibromyalgia pain. I don’t know if it they really work, but I thought I would mention it!

          1. Fibro fighter*

            I’ve had a similar conversation with her already. I didn’t mention my work. But I mentioned that I had fiber and was going through a flare, which was why I had been absent and that I was working on it. I’m hesitant to say that I’ll be back to my regular self soon because I’m not sure when that will be. Bec response was brief. Just that it sounds difficult and hoped id feel better soon. This time I want to specifically raise the idea of formulating a plan for when I am not feeling well.

            I’m not sure what the cellulite busting tools that loosen fascia are. Can you give me more info?

            1. AndersonDarling*

              If you search for “cellulite massager” on Amazon, a few options will pop up, and then there is the fasciablaster. They loosen fascia so the fibers aren’t pinching the nerves and causing pain. But they will hurt like-all-get-out the first few times you use them.
              It sounds like you are a good employee, so I bet your boss will be ready to accommodate your ups and downs. Once you open the dialog and say what you need, it should be smooth sailing. Good luck!

    3. Nan*

      My other half has fibro. I second what the others are saying. Talk to your doc about FMLA, and if your boss is the reasonable type, talk to her, too. I know (secondhand) that fibro sucks, but maybe there are a few environmental things that can be done at work, too. It won’t make it better, but it may help? Turn up the heat in your spot, headphones if it causes tinitis (which I apparently can’t spell), changing your hours if you tend to feel better/worse at certain parts of the day, or a vacation week just to de-stress. Not to even go anywhere, just not go to work.

      1. Fibro fighter*

        I work from home so I luckily have a ton of flexibility in that regard. I have an adjustable desk so I can stand and stretch when I need to and lower it down quite a bit when I want to slump in my office chair. I can also work from bed or the sofa for the most part, but I often need 3 monitors for my job so it somewhat depends on what my current responsibilities are. And I can adjust the heat or play music if I want. I even have a sound machine.

        I would LOVE to adjust my hours but have no idea how to approach it. I want to work 7-3:30 instead of 8:30-5:00. I fade by the end of the day and have a hard time getting anything done the last two hours. Then I’d also be able to go to the gym for a water aerobics class that really helps me but I can’t do because work conflicts. I’m just not sure how to ask. Should I start with a doctor recommendation?

        1. Nan*

          Maybe start w the doc explanation. I also don’t see why an hour schedule swing wouldn’t fall under an ADA reasonable. accommodation, but I am totally not an expert in that area.

        2. Teach*

          Shifting your hours would technically allow you to access a treatment (exercise is recommended for fibro, especially in warm water!) that should decrease your time out sick, without taking away overall work hours. That sounds like a win-win.

    4. AnitaJ*

      I’m sorry that you’re dealing with this, and I think you’re a champ.

      My spouse also has chronic pain, and it affects his ability to work as well. He has had frank conversations with his bosses/managers to lay out the issue and to ask them honestly if it was affecting the quality of his work, his relationships with his coworkers, or his general standing as an employee. That conversation took away a lot of his anxiety, and he can now turn that freed-up emotional energy to managing his illness.

      I wouldn’t send your manager articles about fibromyalgia–that might read as condescending (I’m not saying you are! But the manager might think “I could have Googled it myself, why is she sending me these?”).

      I would have this conversation now, before your review. This is important enough that it should all be out in the open as soon as possible, so you can focus on managing your fibro and your day to day life. While I wouldn’t put all of your symptoms out there for her, I think giving her the message that it isn’t just ‘oh, I’m feeling achy, guess I won’t work’ will be helpful. I wouldn’t use the words “haven’t been a stellar employee”, but instead admit that you’ve been struggling and that you would like to come up with a plan that will produce quality work while still managing your health.

      Good luck. I know you can do it!

      1. Fibro fighter*

        Thanks so much. For some reason I was thinking of waiting til the review but you’re right that doing it now would be better. I have a weekly one on one with her so I could do this next Tuesday. I like the idea approaching it as coming up with a plan that would help me produce better work. I think she would appreciate that and I would feel better.

        I just need to to have a plan in mind and I’m not entirely sure what it should be yet. That’s the tough part.

    5. Amy*

      I also think that looking at FMLA or ADA accommodation will be more productive than trying to educate your manager about fibro. There are protections out there for people facing this kind of chronic medical issue, and you should make use of them! Your immediate manager generally shouldn’t be the one making decisions about whether your medical needs are reasonable.

      As for your review: I think you should focus on the work you’ve done while at work while analyzing your own performance. If you say anything about your absences, I’d frame it as “I’ve struggled lately with how to handle time-sensitive tasks when I’ve been out sick. Going forward, one of the goals I’d like to set for myself is developing a better process for either adjusting expected timelines or handing off urgent tasks in that situation.” Don’t frame your being sick as the problem–the problem is that you’re dropping balls, not that you have fibro.

    6. CheeryO*

      I feel for you! I have been struggling with a yet-to-be-diagnosed rheumatoid issue, and I have some stretches where I feel absolutely useless at work, and the resulting shame/depression/anxiety is definitely not helpful.

      I’m lucky in that I don’t have many hard deadlines, and I can make up for it by working my butt off when I do feel good. I don’t feel like I need to address it with my boss yet, but if/when I do, I plan to be as upfront and matter-of-fact as possible without getting too detailed with the specific symptoms. I don’t think I would email articles; I think most people understand that fibro causes chronic pain that’s way beyond little aches and pains, and if not, a quick Google search would be pretty enlightening. If there’s anything you’re doing to manage your symptoms (and you’re pretty confident that you’re going in a positive direction), I’d mention that in a general sense, but otherwise I think it’s fine to just say that you’re aware that it’s impacting your work and that you’re doing your best to work through it.

      1. Fibro fighter*

        The yet-to-be-diagnosed stage is the absolute worst. I was only formally diagnosed a few weeks ago. But I’ve pretty much know I had this for a very long time. As a result, I’ve been suffering and managing it with virtually no help from my doctors and I was hesitant to mention it to my manager without an official diagnosis.

        So my work has been declining for a long time and this particular flare, being bad, is what motivated me to take up getting a diagnosis again. I’m glad I did because I’ve finally found a doctor that can help me. So maybe that helps me figure out how to talk to my manager about it. I can explain to her that I’ve been handling it on my own but now I have a doctor to help me manage so I’m more confident in finding solutions that work.

    7. Mel*

      I have fibromyalgia too and just wanted to chime in with gentle virtual hugs! I’ve had to miss work a lot lately thanks to crazy weather changes flaring me up (and my first ever sinus infection). They’ve been pretty flexible about it, but I’m in a temporary job and it likely would be an issue if I were permanent. I also have felt my quality of work slip, but my normal level is very efficient so it hasn’t been too much of a problem either. But I still feel guilty about it too.
      I’d like to second all the FMLA advice. I’m going to be asking my doctor about one when I see her next month, as I’m starting a new permanent role next month. I’ve been upfront about my fibromyalgia the entire time in my current temporary role, and plan to do the same in my new role (as it explains why I don’t have a PhD when I actually should have been awarded one). I’m nervous too, because my new role will be challenging and I’m hoping to avoid fibro fog.

      1. Fibro fighter*

        Virtual hugs to you too!

        I think the fiber fog is a killer for me. I’m constantly forgetting what I was going to say, going blank on peoples names, stumbling over my words. I think I sound like an unprepared idiot sometimes! My job is highly technical so I struggle with some of the details.

        I hope things go well in your new role!

  4. Mouse*

    I’m an intern and I’m hoping for some reassurance! My boss is nice, but sometimes says things that freak me out a bit and I’m afraid I’m making a bad impression. For example, she asked me if I was signing up for some event. She had told me before that I’ll be helping her at the event, so I didn’t register for it (it’s a marathon thing). She told me to register so I’d get a t-shirt. She then made a comment like “don’t you read your email?” in that tone of “this is a joke but also not really” when I asked her what I needed to do to register. I told her that I do, but I hadn’t held the details in my brain since I thought it wasn’t applicable. Or as another example, I was talking to a neighbor (yay open offices) and the neighbor asked if I had a library card (conversationally- I didn’t need it for the job or anything). I don’t, because I’m a little weird about reading books other people have sneezed (or who knows what else) on. When I said I didn’t have a card, my boss said “you’re fired!” from a few cubicles away. I get that it was a joke, but I’m just worried that it means I’m making a bad impression! To make things worse, she’s nominally my boss, but I work entirely with other people, so she never sees the actual quality of my work. Should I be worried?

    1. Claudia M.*

      This actually sounds like she’s trying to find a way to connect to her employee, and is just really, REALLY awkward about it.

      Take it from a fellow awkward person. Connecting with employees is harder than it should be for some of us. I actually took classes to try and get better! They were incredibly helpful.

      But the fact that she’s inviting you to help her with the event seems promising. Unless there have been more serious comments/issues, I don’t think the above is anything to genuinely worry about.

    2. Cambridge Comma*

      It’s great that you’re thinking about how you appear and wanting to modify it. It doesn’t sound like you’ve made any impressions so bad you can’t have a go at correcting them.
      For the library card thing, do you perhaps work for a library?

    3. Chelsea*

      It sounds to me like she just has a wry sense of humor. I wouldn’t worry about it too much! For your own piece of mind, you could always ask to check in with her about how you’re doing in your position, if there’s anything she’d like you to be doing differently, etc. Could give some useful information or just some reassurance.

    4. Temperance*

      You’re probably fine, but I would recommend getting a library card. Most libraries have ebooks now, so you don’t have to worry about other people’s disgusting germs and bedbugs anymore. ;)

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        I was going to say this. Library cards and access are useful even if you’re never going to step foot in a library or pick up a physical book.

      3. Snarky Librarian*

        Yes to this! My library offers e-books, streaming video and music, and digital magazines. You can access all of it from home but you need a valid library card number.

    5. Nan*

      I think you guys just have differing senses of humor. I’ve been known to say “read your email” and all I meant was “read your email.”

      Library books used to weird me out, but yay for free books!

      As a runner, I don’t like that she told you to register for the marathon, or was she telling you to register as a volunteer? Race registration is expensive, and marathons have caps. If you’re registering to run with no intention of running, you’re snaking someone else’s spot, which is no bueno.

    6. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I think you’re fine, but I will add that if you had received an email with the instructions that it would have been better to go back to the email instead of asking. It’s not a huge deal, but since you already had the info it’s better to look it up than to ask your boss for it.

      But I wouldn’t think anything about the comment about the library card. I do recommend getting one for the ebooks!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. When you get conflicting instructions, it’s fine to ask. In this case I would just go with the most recent instruction, thinking she probably changed her mind for whatever reason.

        I’m not liking the library card joke. It’s not good for bosses to joke about being fired. That is really bad form. However, you can go get a library card and she will NEVER know you’re not using it. You can show her the card and just say, “I did not know if you were joking or not so I got a card, see?” Maybe that will send a message to her to be more careful.

    7. CheeryO*

      I wouldn’t be worried, but it would be pretty easy to smooth those two specific examples over if you wanted to. If you haven’t already done it, after you register for the event, you can send her a quick email (or stop by her desk) and let her know, and just throw in a quick thank you for reminding you about the first email with the registration details.

      As far as the library card thing, that definitely seems like a throwaway joke, but if you do ever decide to get a library card (Overdrive is amazing, just saying), you could tell her with a smile or a little joke (“Can I have my job back now?”). NOT saying that you need to do any of these things since it’s really nothing to worry about, but it would be easy to do if you wanted to.

      1. motherofdragons*

        It definitely sounds like the “You’re fired” was a joke, although your boss probably didn’t think it all the way through that it might terrify you!

    8. designbot*

      I’d see these as half joking/half serious. For the first, she’s taking a joking tone because she doesn’t want to reprimand you, but, you know, read your email instead of bothering her to verbally give you instructions on something you have sitting in your email box already. On the second, again her tone is joking because this isn’t a formal requirement but she probably genuinely has questions about your ability to keep current without using the library so if you said “I just have a thing about germs so I buy a lot of books,” or similar in the moment that’d probably clear it right up.

    2. ThatGirl*

      While I think she could have waited until the interview to ask, honestly, that’s so tacky. And seems very startup-y to me: how dare you ask about pay! Don’t you want the honor of working for us!

      1. FDCA In Canada*

        The articles I’ve read about it are unclear–some have said she had had one interview and was prepping for her second, but others are saying it was a preliminary phone screen interview, so I’m not sure. I do think it’s telling that their statement included “We do share a compensation package prior to hiring”–well, no duh, is there any company that expects you to turn up and work without ever having discussed pay and benefits? (Knowing AAM, the answer, depressingly, is probably yes.)

        1. Becca*

          My sister-in-law is applying for jobs, and the owner of one place said, “Okay, so you start on Tuesday!” — without giving her any information about salary, benefits, anything! The owner didn’t even know if her employees had health insurance through work!!

        2. Unfortunately Yes*

          Yeah…the answer is yes.

          They also refused to tell me what classes I’d be teaching. It was a small school so specific courses could change year to year, but it would always be some kind of middle and high school math. Except this position was starting mid year to replace a teacher who left. They knew what classes had no teacher but wouldn’t tell me if it they were geometry, calculus, algebra, etc. Also wouldn’t tell me the grade level.

          So they literally interviewed me on Wednesday, wanted me to start on Monday and wouldn’t tell me what the job was or what it paid…

      2. Io*

        I saw this story on Twitter and someone just kept insisting that you interview for a job for the opportunity and not for the pay. I didn’t realize we could eat opportunity.

        1. ThatGirl*

          There’s a Twitter account (and possibly a tumblr?) dedicated to posting ads looking for creative types (photogs, designers, writers, etc) doing things “for the exposure” as opposed to pay. It’s hilari-sad.

        2. Lance*

          I saw it on Twitter as well, retweeted with a comment from our very own Ask A Manager, Alison Green herself.

        3. Artemesia*

          Isn’t it interesting that CEOs and other C @#$@s are only going to work well if compensated with ginormous multi million dollar salaries and bonuses, but that the minions should just work for the pure fun of it?

          It is all about dominance and submission.

      1. Lauren*

        If you have highly wanted skills, you can ask for anything. I had friends in IT do this, but they are in the 150k range, because of how valuable they are – so employers say yes to a lot of stuff that won’t fly for a normal 50k job.

      2. Freya UK*

        Here in the UK a month’s holiday is your basic entitlement (28 days)… your employer can give you more, but not less, so… you all need to get on that.

    4. Io*

      I got into a Twitter argument with someone over this one. She said she wouldn’t necessarily cancel the interview, but that it would be a red flag. I asked why she wanted to waste her time interviewing someone if the pay would ultimately cause that person to not accept the job. She said it was about the “passion” and that they’d pay more for the right candidate.

      Really? You’re gonna pay someone 50% more than you have budgeted if they’re the right candidate and demand that pay?

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Especially as the work involved making takeout menus. I like takeout now and again, but it’s not a subject I can imagine generating such passion that you wouldn’t even care about salary. (Didn’t click the link, but the version I saw was after one interview and preparing for second, asked about compensation.)

      2. Delta Delta*

        I had an inverse situation not long ago (and I have no idea if this sort of thing happens often). I had a pre-interview to find out if they should go forward with scheduling an interview because of pay. They were concerned they’d pay too low, and didn’t want to waste their or my time with an interview if pay would get in the way.

      3. Jessesgirl72*

        Artistic types of that sort often don’t have budgets.

        It sure was a red flag, though. That woman sure dodged a bullet!

      4. Elizabeth West*

        I am SO SICK of seeing listings that want me to have passion for the job. Nobody can sustain stars-in-their-eyes passion for eight hours a day, five days a week.

      5. Honeybee*

        Some of the most talented, passionate people are also people who know their worth and aren’t going to work for beans; they also know that their skills are in demand and if one company wants to play games, they can take their talents elsewhere.

    5. Merida May*

      Thank you for posting this! I was going to ask about that today myself. I was specifically wondering what people thought about naming and shaming via twitter versus sites like glassdoor.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I think Twitter gets a lot more exposure than Glassdoor so I can understand why she opted for that route.

        It makes me wonder if hiring managers are going to hold this against her though. I mean, I wouldn’t, because I think her question was perfectly reasonable and their reaction was over the top, but I imagine there are people out there who agree with the company that she overstepped by asking.

        1. k*

          While some may hold it against her, I’d argue that those are people she doesn’t want to work for.

          On the twitter vs. glassdoor point: I think this is one of those things that’s so “WTF?” to some people (and apparently the poster) that it warrants the more public twitter approach. I view Glassdoor as a place to get the real nitty-gritty view of what working somewhere is like. Like you post of glassdoor if you want to tell people that there’s little room for advancement, you post on twitter if you want to tell people that the CEO likes to kick puppies.

    6. Augusta Sugarbean*

      I think this is my favorite tweet about it: “People aren’t looking for work because they have a vision of @SkipTheDishes creating world peace, they need to live.”

    8. Fabulous*

      While I totally disagree with the company’s response, I think the girl could have asked the question in a better way. The way she worded it did make it sound a bit harsher than intended. If she had said something like (*channels Alison*), “Before our meeting on Thursday, I want to be sure that our pay expectations are in line. Could you give me an idea of what you will be offering for an hourly rate?” it may have gone over better. I’d personally skip mentioning benefits altogether until later on.

      1. Audiophile*

        I can see waiting to find out benefits until an in person interview. Although anytime a job hasn’t offered benefits, I’ve always seen it listed right up front, either in the job posting or I was told in the first phone interview. This wasn’t a US job though, right? So thinks may be different there.

    9. Freya UK*

      Well I’m glad for her that she dodged an employment bullet – just like I did this week! Unfortunately only after they wasted my time with two interviews. Ugh.

  6. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    How do I deal with an office bully that our supervisor LURVS? I’ve brought up their sneaky, bullying ways and am told “Oh, you know how they are.” This person has tried to get me fired multiple times and I’m in a constant state of panic. I don’t think I can do this much longer.

    1. Letters*

      At this stage? CYA — start documenting EVERYTHING. The things the bully does, times and dates and wording. Document when you’ve spoken to the supervisor and what was said — and if you’re still brushed off, take it over the supervisor’s head.

    2. CoffeeLover*

      Document absolutely everything. Send emails confirming the details of anything you spoke of in person so you have a paper trail of in-person convos too. If the bully pushes back on you doing this, just say “oh I’m doing it to make sure we’re on the same page, and so we have the info written down in case we need to refresh our memory. :)”

      Based on your last sentence you’re probably already doing this, but I’ll say it anyway, start to seriously look for another job.

    3. Teflon*

      Is there anyone who can play Teflon? i.e. Is there someone so good at their job the boss also LOVES or at least NEEDS them enough to respect/shelter them? We have a problem child and someone who acts as an unofficial pushback agent on him to make it more bearable for the rest of us.

      1. AlexandrinaVictoria*

        I am that person, but the boss seems to love the bully more. I think they are insecure because I do my job very very well. Any pushback from me results in retaliation. But that’s a very good suggestion and I’ll think about it!

    4. Natalie*

      Leave.

      If your co-worker was just a bit of a dick, I’d say it might be worth figuring out a way to tolerate them or push back. But if they’ve tried to get you fired multiple times, it’s escalated to a level that I wouldn’t want to attempt to fix. Your boss has made it fairly clear through their inaction that they are not going to do anything about the situation. I personally wouldn’t count on that changing at all in the future, no matter what kind of documentation you produce or how you frame it to them. So your best bet is to get the eff out of dodge.

    5. Former Admin Sue*

      Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do. Please get out as soon as you can I stayed too long and it started to affect how I felt about myself!

    6. Gadfly*

      CYA/Document everything and get ready to go above the supervisor if you find anything appropriately actionable. And/or prepare to leave. Possibly let supervisor know this has gotten to be so intolerable you are looking to leave (depends on your read of the supervisor–are the just the sort who don’t care until it could hurt them? Sounds like your leaving could hurt them more than reigning in bully will hurt them.)

    7. Bea W*

      You get out. BTDT. If management refuses to deal with it, you have little left to resort to. If your manager is incapable or unwilling to deal with problems like this, don’t expect much else other than a toxic workplace situation.

    8. ..Kat..*

      1. Start looking for another job. This toxic coworker plus a crap manager are untenable.
      2. Document everything, and make sure you have a copy of this at home (in case you are suddenly escorted out the door). This way, if you are fired, you can make a case for receiving unemployment.

      I am sorry you are being treated like this and your manager is a waste of oxygen. No one deserves this. Treat yourself well. Having to deal with this is very stressful and can do a number on your self esteem.

    9. Nana*

      Seconding everyone on the thread. Leave and move on. Or else be on the lookout for one of the bully’s attempts to fire you to succeed. Don’t waste your time and take your talents somewhere else.

  7. Anon Ymous HR professional*

    The company I work for has open positions for warehouse and shop floor workers. There are 4 requirements for the jobs:

    1) Must be able to pass a pre-employment drug screen as well as random drug / alcohol tests while employed (the jobs involve the use of heavy machinery and any type of impairment, legal or not is a health and safety issue)

    2l Must not have a criminal record for any violent, sex or theft related crimes

    3) Must be physically capable of / able to perform the required work

    4) Must be legally authorized to work in the United States

    The jobs were posted over 2 weeks ago. Our process is to call anyone who qualifies in for an interview. So far over 40 people have applied. Some of them were rejected before they were called for an interview and some were called in for interviews and rejected after they interviewed. Not a single one of them was able to meet all 4 requirements. I’m at my wits end and my boss and the hiring managers are getting anxious and keep asking me what’s going on with the job postings.

    1. FDCA In Canada*

      Oh, I run into this issue frequently–we post for outside employers who occasionally will get frustrated at the lack of applicants. For outside employers we usually have to do a bit of gentle expectation resetting–around here the general labour positions ebb and flow with the seasons, it’s unusual to find people who can meet the expectations who aren’t currently employed, etc. It doesn’t seem like the requirements you have are particularly unusual for that type of position, so is there a way you can blast the ad out to different boards? We’ve had more luck in our area with physical job boards in offices and community boards for gen labour positions, rather than online-only.

    2. Pup Seal*

      Do you know which requirement most candidates are lacking? I feel all requirements are quite basic, so I’m surprised nobody has met all 4 requirements. Though I think number 3 is kinda vague. Maybe whoever is posting the job might want to include what physical capabilities a person must have. I’ve seen job postings that have “must be able to lift 50 lbs” or “must be able to stand on feet for 8 hours”. That might help get more qualified candidates to apply.

      1. Anon Ymous HR professional*

        We’ve had trouble with all four of the qualifications equally. The requirements for things like lifting and standing are other stuff is listed, I didn’t include the whole list in my post above because it was a lot to type out.

        2. Agile Phalanges*

          Same issue here (I also posted below). Our job ads list the type of work they’ll be doing, the lifting requirements, etc., but we had a guy last 4 hours before coming into the office and quitting (at least he did us that courtesy) because the job was too strenuous for his heart condition. !!! You’d think he’d have remembered the heart condition when reading the job description and decided this wasn’t the job for him before going through the process of filling out the application and taking the drug test, but no.

    3. CU*

      Are they listing pay in the job listings? If yes, it’s not high enough to attract qualified candidates. If they’re not listing it, put it in and see if you get a higher caliber of candidate.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Exactly. My hubby has been looking for any job, including warehouse work, but he assumes that it pays min wage if no wage is listed.

      2. Anon Ymous HR professional*

        The pay is listed. It’s above minimum wage and includes benefits after the probationary period.

        1. CU*

          There’s a lot of ground between minimum wage and living wage. If the salary isn’t a lot closer to the living wage end of the gap, you’re not going to attract good candidates. You said below its market wage for the area. Maybe all the qualified people are making market wage at other places and you need to pay more to attract them away.

          1. Anon Ymous HR professional*

            It’s market rate for our area and includes a competitive benefits package. It’s not below market rate, not even close.

            1. CU*

              When I said below I meant down thread. As in you said down thread you were offering market wage.

              If there are no people willing to work for the amount you are offering , it could be that everyone who is willing to do that job for that amount of money is already doing that job for that amount of money somewhere else. You will either have to offer them more or wait for the other employers to downsize or go out of business.

              Fast food restaurants in my area have this problem. National chains had a starting wage of $9/hr. Local chain started at $10. National chains couldn’t hire decent employees, so they raised their starting wages to $10. Still couldn’t hire anyone, even though that was market wage, because everyone willing to work a fast food job for $10/hr was already working at local chain. Local chain also consistently has the best food and service because the employees know they’ll be well compensated.

              1. Elizabeth West*

                How the hell does anyone live on $10. I cut my expenses to the bone and I still need at least $12 and I’m not even in a high COL area. Of course, if I had another income in my household, it would be easier, and/or if I didn’t have fooking student loans.

                1. ThatGirl*

                  I survived on $10 hr… in 2003… in a very low COL area… with no student loans or car payments.

              2. PollyQ*

                Yes, when unemployment drops as low as it has, eventually you’ll have to pay more for qualified employees.

        2. Pescadero*

          Then it really does come to a pure supply/demand, basic microeconomics problem.

          Supply of workers is too low at the price you’re willing to pay… and the way to increase supply is to increase pay.

          1. Chris*

            15-20% is the rule of thumb for how much more you have to offer a good prospect who is not unemployed and not disgruntled, to make them consider leaving. Sounds like you might need to think about paying 15% above market if there is no free talent. Or widening your net. Offering recruiting bonuses to existing team members. You know… stuff management doesn’t like to hear.

    4. Cassandra*

      I might take a very hard look at the no-criminal-record requirement. I understand why it might have been enacted, but I suspect it might be screening out people who would do just fine for you.

      1. Kinsley M.*

        I agree. Is the requirement just a blanket ban on all criminal records that contain those offenses or is there a reasonable time limit? My company, for example, has a ban on felonies within the last seven years. We’re not going to not hire someone because he/she stole something twenty years ago and has been a model citizen since. I think if you have a blanket ban on criminal records, you really need to rethink your approach, and I’d be very wary of a potential ‘disparate impact’ litigation.

      2. Anon Ymous HR professional*

        It’s not no criminal record period. We can’t have anyone convicted of sex crimes because there are two playgrounds and a daycare center near the location. The management doesn’t want anyone with prior thefts because we have had a number of issues with theft in the past and many of the products in the warehouse have a high dollar value. If someone has non violent, non theft or sex crime convictions (ex. possession of drugs or breach of probation) they would qualify.

        1. Kinsley M.*

          But is there a time limit on the convictions? I understand having a blanket ban on sex crimes with the closeness to children’s areas, but not theft or violence. I really and truly worry for how ‘legal’ that is (IANAL). Just being worried about the possibility of theft from someone who was convicted a decade or so ago is not going to be a good defense in court especially if this is affecting a large number of minority applicants.

          2. Anon Ymous HR professional*

            It’s going back 5 years for theft, blanket bans on violent and security crimes. Anything else, even if felonies or recent would not exclude an applicant and they would qualify. We have felons for things like drug possession employed here and others who have jobs here as part of their probation.

            1. Former Retail Manager*

              Does the violent crime include domestic violence? That might be another part of the problem. An applicant that was convicted of domestic violence 10+ years ago, likely isn’t the same person today, assuming no additional convictions. And domestic violence situations can range drastically from I pushed someone/slapped them/scratched them to I put them in the hospital for several days. Generally speaking, at least in my area, the types of jobs you’re hiring for don’t pay very well (above min. wage but not a real living wage), the work is hard, and it isn’t climate controlled. The only people you are going to find who are willing to bust ass at a job like that for any length of time are people who need a second chance. Perhaps revisit the criminal record requirement, do some quality interviews, and really look at the person as a whole.

              1. AJennifer*

                I’d sooner hire a guy who was convicted of pounding another guy outside a bar 10 years ago than hire a guy who’d been convicted of DV 10 years ago, all other things being equal. It’s a rare case that a DA and victim carry a DV case through to conviction. If they did, I’d give it a lot more weight than a bar fight.

                Sure, second chances and all, but don’t downplay DV as any less of a violent crime than other assaults. If anything it’s more violent – it’s perpetuated against an intimate partner and is likely accompanied by a lot of behavioral tendencies that are also not conducive to a functional workplace – self-control and anger management issues, manipulating and controlling behavior, etc.

                1. Hrovitnir*

                  Yes. I wouldn’t necessarily expect domestic abusers to bring that to work, but frankly the chances of someone maintaining their violence over time is much higher for domestic abusers than people who got in a lot of fights when they were young (or hell, punching someone out for, say, sexual harassment one time – that’s still a potential assault charge).

        2. Gwen Soul*

          This will sound weird but if you have a goodwill near you they may have workers. They help disadvantaged individuals, so disabled but others also like vets, those on medicaid, and recent ex-offenders.

        3. Natalie*

          Maybe a long shot, but are there any orgs that work with parolees to get them jobs? They need jobs, they’re already being drug tested for parole (I assume) and you can still screen out the criminal categories that don’t work for you.

        4. Red Reader*

          It might actually be worth reaching out to programs that focus on finding employment for ex-cons then? My housemate works as an admin for a Volunteers of America program that helps newly released ex-prisoners find jobs, housing etc, and their clients all have ongoing requirements to stay in the program and stay qualified for the assistance they get, so a program like that might be an option for you.

    5. Dawn*

      Have you thought about going through a staffing agency to fill these positions? That might be easier and save you time in the long run because the staffing agency would be doing all the pre-screening for you.

      1. Anon Ymous HR professional*

        We tried that but none of the people they sent could pass the drug test when they were asked. If it was an office job we could let it slide but for heavy machinery we can’t.

        1. paul*

          Are you requiring previous experience with machinery or are you willing to train new people?

          Particularly if your pay isn’t really competitive and it’s serious machinery (i.e not just knowing how to use a pallet jack) it may help to just be willing to train. Now if you’re trying to hire say, a crane operator or something that requires extensive training that may not be an option.

            1. lurking and such today*

              Have you thought about reaching out to the public school system – specifically guidance counselors at high schools? There are plenty of youth who meet all 4 requirements, are 18, and do not plan to start college in the fall and will be graduating in May. I knew plenty of people who would have applied and hoped they got the type of job you posted about after graduation because college wasn’t an option at the time. Also, have you reached out to any agencies that work with adults with non-physical disabilities? I have noticed a few stores in my area have full time adults on the spectrum and at one particular store the guy does stock and I have seen him lifting and pushing heavy stuff. Just some avenues to explore if possible. Good luck!

              1. blondie*

                Agree 100% on reaching out to high schools. Many of the students in career and technical education programs are bright, can use hand tools, and have good mechanical skills. Plus, they are accustomed to showing up at school on time each day, so they can easily transition into showing up at work on time each day. In our school district, we already drug test students who drive to school or participate in sports or extracurricular activities, so most students do not use drugs or alcohol.

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          The agency wasn’t testing them prior to sending them? That seems like a communication failure. I work in staffing and if a client gives us a list of requirements like this, we make sure to only send people who qualify.

        3. Mononymous*

          Are you in a state that has legalized recreational cannabis? If so, I can see how that would cause a huge problem, since cannabis stays in the system for so long.

          1. Anon Ymous HR professional*

            In our state it’s not legal at all. Not even for medicinal use (I don’t agree with the way drug laws are written or enforced and am for legal marijuana but the law as it stands is that it is totally illegal here)

    6. TotesMaGoats*

      So, I wonder a couple of things.

      1 Is your posting truly clear on the requirements for the role AND that they are requirements not preferred abilities?
      2. Where are you posting? That could be a factor. Your local workforce board might be able to help.
      3. For the people who get an interview and then declined, are they declined because they truly can’t do all 4 things or some other issue that came across in the interview?

      1. Anon Ymous HR professional*

        The posting is clear. We have posted online, through local job boards and through staffing agencies. Not a single person who has applied has been able to meet all 4 of the requirements. I don’t know if there have been other issues because no one met the requirements.

        1. A Plain-Dealing Villain*

          Can you offer a bonus to current workers who refer a friend who qualifies? Is there a local veterans organization you can recruit from? Are there any local job centers you can ask to send people your way? I don’t know how geographically restricted your applicant pool is, but it sounds like you need to find an applicant pipeline that can feed you a stream of qualified candidates.

    7. paul*

      What’s the pay like, compared to similar jobs in your area?

      On 3, what are the physical qualifications?

      1. Anon Ymous HR professional*

        The pay is above minimum wage, is market value for our area and includes benefits after the probationary period.

        The physical requirements are things like being able to stand and walk unassisted, being able to lift a certain amount of weight and other standard things for warehouse and shop work.

        1. Pescadero*

          ” market value for our area”

          Do other companies hiring similar employees in the area have the same issues? If so – it may that the entire areas “market value” is too low.

    9. Bad Candidate*

      Is the location on or near a bus line? My FIL could do this type of work, but he doesn’t drive, so he’s limited to public transportation. If you are, you might want to put that in the ad if it isn’t already.

    10. Sualah*

      I used to work for a trucking company, and they posted jobs online, but honestly, for driver and dock workers (so very similar requirements to yours), the best luck was “old school” stuff–want ads, those JobDig newsletters at grocery stores, pinning “Help Wanted” notices on pinboards, accepting applications from people who walked in. Granted, these were (generally) men in their 40s and 50s…most of them didn’t have an email (or used their wife’s email) and didn’t seem to use the internet for job search stuff.

      1. Beansidhe*

        I would suggest you now sent in a “worker” anonymously to see exactly what’s going on on different shifts. Many times despite pay being reasonable and benefits offered there is a massive disconnect between what the front offices assume is going on and what is actually going on. There are more than a few manufacturing plants in my area who no one will work for due to actual conditions on the floor versus what recruiters have told applicants and even what “daylight” management swears they espouse. While companies claim ignorance, it’s widely known about in the “available” workforce.

        To be specific it’s not the physical work,or pay. It’s the direct supervisors who while putting out the production numbers let bullying by longer term employees happen, play shift favorites, tolerate all manner of gas lighting because workers are a dime a dozen. Places are now finding out that the newer workforce has choices. Until Management actively wants to manage some of these bad apples out you sadly are going continue to see the issues with no applicants.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I agree with looking internally–I’m not saying there is something wrong with the company, but I have a hard time believing NOBODY qualifies. I live in a city in Trumplandia with several manufacturers and worked for one and we had no trouble finding qualified people who weren’t high all the time. You should be getting HUNDREDS of applicants and quite a few good ones.

          I’d also put something in the paper, if you can.

          1. Gadfly*

            And if you have the little local weekly free papers, place an ad in those. A lot of people who would be interested, in my experience, for this sort of job also are checking Craigslist and similar sites.

          2. Relosa*

            This.

            If you have dozens of applicants and ZERO viable candidates…there’s one common denominator.

    11. Agile Phalanges*

      We have this issue. Basically the same requirements and similar type of job. My boss (tiny company) unfortunately doesn’t even seem to find interviewing or reference checks important. So we hire a TON of people, pay $50 to drug test them, only to have the walk off the job after a day (or sometimes less). Ridiculous. It’s gotten a bit better since we’ve started requiring the RESULTS of the drug test, and not just the testing itself, be done before they begin work, but it’s still ridiculous.

      My best guess is that there are two issues.

      One, it’s just a factor of the type of work and the type of people who look for that type of work. They’ll work our job until something better (by whatever factors they use) comes along. For some, they work here for a month or two until agriculture jobs open back up. For others, they prefer fast food or retail. But yeah, some folks just don’t see jobs as long-term commitments, but as solutions to their temporary problem of being out of work.

      Two, in our case at least, is the pay. At my company, the job used to pay a few dollars over minimum wage, and I think in those days, the quality of employee was a little better, and the length of their tenure definitely was. But over the years, minimum wage has risen more than our starting wage (our state is higher than the federal). My son is 15 and just got his first job, and earns only $1.25/hr less by vacuuming cars at a car wash than our newest employee earns working around heavy equipment in a dangerous job all day. I’m not sure whether my son has a roof over his head at the vacuum station, but our employees are pretty much out in the elements. It’s crazy to expect them to do that for only $1.25 more than minimum wage, but my boss won’t hear of raising our starting wage. Ugh. So we attract the quality of applicant we deserve, basically.

    12. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      Based on this whole thread, it sounds like it’s just “one of those jobs” that is hard to recruit for. (And maybe it wouldn’t be in a different area of the country, but for whatever reason, it is where you are.) Not quite the same, but similar: I was listening to a local organic farmer on the local NPR affiliate recently talking about how they advertised farmworker jobs pay a living/market wage and got NO APPLICANTS, hence why they had to apply to get (legal) migrant workers. It is an interesting phenomena – there really are a lot of jobs out there for people in general, it’s just that for a laundry list of personal reasons, those are not jobs they are willing to take.

    13. Ms Ida*

      I would suggest looking at the job description wording and the physical requirements. Think about if these are positions that a woman would generally be cable of physically performing. Most of the warehouse jobs I see have a 50 pound lifting requirement but the actual work itself rarely requires that heavy of lifting. Women that would be otherwise qualified can be detered even by the assumtion that they will not meet the physical requirements or will assume that women will not be hired.
      If it makes sense for the actual positiosn I would really consider how the job describtion could indicate you are open to women, what physical requirements can be flexible, and maybe specifically say prior expierence is not a requirement.
      The other suggestiosn about reaching out to groups that work with vets, ex-cons, students are good and you might also find out if there is a group that works in increase woman in trade jobs. In my area we have tradeswomen dot net and I would expect they would have a pool of women with an interest in this kind of work.

    14. AJennifer*

      I’ve read through this thread and haven’t really been able to discern how your ads are written. If you are focusing on these negative, disqualifying things, which you are putting forth as qualifications, you might be turning off people who are actually qualified. Your ad should describe the job, the important role it plays in the organization, stress your willingness to train, include your organization’s commitment to diversity in the workplace, and sell the good pay, benefits, stability, etc…..all before bringing up these disqualifying issues. And when you do bring them up, say something like “Qualified applicants will be able to: be capable of with or without reasonable accommodation; be legally authorized to work in the US; pass a pre-employment drug screen and random tests; pass a criminal background check that relates to job and workplace specific requirements (feel free to call for more info).”

      The reality is the job market has improved dramatically over the past couple of years – in my area unemployment is under 5% and we’re experiencing trouble hiring in my workplace for part-time positions. Where we had success at $10-$13 an hour a year or two ago, we’re struggling to hire at $12-$15 now. We’ve also found that in this market we’re much better doing our hiring alone than using a staffing agency. Not that they can’t get us people, but the people they get us are not of the quality we hire on our own – we still interview their candidates on the ‘job’ but feel they don’t do well on screening for the longer-term fit for part-time positions, or on reference checking as it relates to reliability and work ethic.

      Hope this helps.

  8. Shabu Shabu*

    How does one prepare for a supervisory position interview if you’ve never been a supervisor?

    More background: John, Sally, and I are on the same team. They recently created two new positions, one which would supervise our team. Expanding our team from 3 to 5 is a shock, but that’s another story…Sally and I love John. He is the best co-worker and is always there to answer our questions and help us, etc. Right now he is informally known as our lead. When they posted the new positions we knew one was for an existing contractor and the new sup position was for John.

    Sally knows everyone and everything and she tells me that the panel (our managers plus two other managers) were “not impressed” with two things when John interviewed. One, they didn’t think he interviewed strongly (John was supposed to be interviewed in person but they ended up doing a phone interview with him. Phone interview suck). Two, the weren’t happy with his answers to the managerial questions. If John doesn’t get this new role we’ll all be sad.

    Anyway, it got me thinking, John has never supervised anyone and this position is meant for a new supervisor. What kind of questions did management ask him that resulted them not being “impressed”? They didn’t like his hypothetical answers? How else does one prep?

    1. Letters*

      In general, you want to show that you’ve got the skill to lead — so even if you haven’t had a title in the past, in what ways have you led? If I were John I would have talked about how everyone considers me the informal lead, because of the way that I took on extra work to help organize X and Y projects and because of the way that I moderated the debate with Z project, and based on how I handled the personality dispute between A and B team members.

      One of the things I’ve realized recently in my own career is that it isn’t just knowledge they look for with a management role — you can be top of your class with expert knowledge for your field, but leadership is a completely different skill that requires something that’s really outside of book learning/memorization. Do you have the patience and unflappability to deal with disputes between employees? Have you shown that you step forward to deal with unpleasant situations by offering others solutions for going forward? And most importantly, can you articulate that in a way that I can understand?

      I feel like I’m mangling this explanation a bit — but basically, there are two parts to it. One, John could be amazing at his current role but not show the specific initiative for managerial roles they’re looking for. Two, he could have everything they need, but not be good at articulating that, and since communicating is also a big part of managing, they could have decided that he wasn’t the best fit.

      Of course, all of this assumes that they are reasonable, intelligent people making the best decision possible.

    2. Poster Child*

      It’s hard to speculate without knowing more but one possibility is he just didn’t show confidence. I have seen a team member who would be great for a supervisor or manager role get poor feedback in the interview probably because she was nervous. I finally did a mock interview with her before the next time she interviewed, and all her answers would trail off and sound like she was questioning herself. Once I pointed that out and told her she had the right answers but should be more confident she aced the next interview and got the role (hopefully because she took my advice).

  9. Pup Seal*

    I have an interview on Monday. Woooo!

    Earlier this week, the hiring manager called and gave me an unexpected phone interview. I’m amazed I didn’t stutter being interviewed on the spot. Still passed to the next stage!

    The next part I don’t know how to feel: the day after she had set up my in-person interview, she called me again and told me they were confident they were going to hire another candidate for the position, but she said they had another similar position opened (which I saw online and almost applied for that one) and wanted to interview me for that job. I told her I was interested, so interview is still on.

    Is it a good sign that they still want to interview me even though it’s for a different position? I would like this job to work out. Even though it’s not the job I originally applied for it still looks like a great opportunity, and this company is located where my boyfriend lives, so I’ll be able to move closer to him.

    1. SophieChotek*

      I think it’s a good sign they want to interview for a different position. To me it seems like they are definitely interested and want to see if you would fit for this other position.

    2. Letters*

      It’s a great sign! It could have been out of her control/knowledge that the role went to something else, but as soon as she found out she called you the NEXT DAY because you were such a strong candidate that she didn’t want to let you go. That’s fantastic!

    3. Chelsea*

      Yes I’d definitely take that as a good sign! they obviously like you and think you’d be a good fit on their team. Good luck with the interview!

    4. Pup Seal*

      Thanks! This makes me feel better. I was a bit worried there.

      The interview is an hour away where I live, and she knows I have to drive down. I guess if she wasn’t considering me at all she wouldn’t waste my time driving all the way over.

    5. Undine*

      Yes, it’s a good sign. It sounds like they already got the candidate who can walk on water & multiply loaves and fishes, but they still have room for a well-qualified mortal.

      1. Hilorious*

        It might also come down to timing (other candidate already interviewed, can start immediately) or some other thing– there are so many factors when it comes to hiring.

        Definitely agree that it’s a good sign!

  10. Cambridge Comma*

    Someone on the floor of our building wrote all over the fridge in permanent marker that won’t come off.
    Strange crude little doodles, although nothing actually offensive, surrounded by LOL, YOLO, OMG, ROFL.
    Because of the textspeak, the (paid, long term) interns are (perhaps unfairly) seen as the most likely culprits. Nobody has owned up but someone has added an unrepentant statement that they didn’t know it was permanent marker – also in permanent marker.
    Opinions are divided as to how bad this is. It doesn’t damage how the fridge works, of course, but it’s an eyesore. What do you think?

    1. ThatGirl*

      Try rubbing alcohol or acetone? Although that may damage the fridge finish.

      I think it’s pretty obnoxious and juvenile, but it’s unfair to pin it on the interns without proof.

      1. Cambridge Comma*

        Of course — if there won’t be any consequences, I guess nobody will try to pin it on anybody.

      2. LabHeather*

        The alcohol is more likely to be kind on the finish, and should dissolve most permanent markers on the market. Acetone has it’s uses too, but is harsher and best for things alcohol won’t take care of (I successfully removed superglue from my new work trousers with them, yay!).

        I agree that it is very childish, but at least you can remove the eyesore.

      5. Mike C.*

        Yeah, isopropyl/rubbing alcohol will take care of this trivially. Permanent marker isn’t actually all that permanent.

      6. Lily Evans*

        Goo gone can work miracles with removing things! I’ve been able to get sharpie off of countertops with it at past jobs.

    2. Arielle*

      I’m no help on the interpersonal issue, but as for the practical issue of the fridge, you may be able to get it off with something like hand sanitizer (aka alcohol) or nail polish remover.

        1. Red Reader*

          That’s what I was going to say — if you scribble over all the perm marker with a wide chisel-tip dry erase marker, leave it for a couple of minutes, and then wipe it up, a lot of it will come right off, and the rest should come up with some of the other suggested options – or even just a bleach cleaning spray, like formula 409, if the fridge is white.

          1. Sara*

            Ditto this! I used to work at a children’s museum with a whiteboard wall and every now and then a permanent marker would make its way into the marker cups. Just write over it with a dry-erase marker and it’s like magic.

        3. Agile Phalanges*

          I saved the sanity of a poor adjunct professor who didn’t realize he was writing on the white board with permanent marker with this trick. He was so grateful!

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Seconding nail polish remover.

        For the desire to make the perpetrator repent, maybe treating it as insane leprechauns? Hit a mildly exasperated, mostly disbelieving note that doesn’t leave room for “You really got me.”

    3. Leatherwings*

      I think that’s pretty bad. If a client or funder or other outside person saw that, it wouldn’t look professional at all. It’s like the adult equivalent of carving crap into your desk – it’s intentionally damaging company property.

      1. Cambridge Comma*

        Oh good point, nobody’s thought at all what it looks like to visitors. And you’re right, the illustration style is exactly school desk style.

    4. Lisa B*

      Is it a surface that dry erase marker would work? If so, I have toddlers so we have this situation ALL THE TIME. But it’s fixable- Write over it in dry erase marker and when you wipe it off, the dry erase and the permanent marker will both come off. If you’re not sure the fridge is dry-erase friendly, test in a small spot first.

      1. Natalie*

        A magic eraser is super fine grit sandpaper, so it’s not a good choice for a plastic or metal finish like the fridge.

          1. Ultraviolet*

            The abrasive surface is pretty much the defining feature of magic erasers. I can’t swear that there’s no version of them that contains bleach as well, but a Google search didn’t turn it up quickly. But they’re usually advertised as containing no cleaning solutions like bleach.

    6. Spoonie*

      You may be able to remove the permanent it by rewriting over it in dry erase marker and then rubbing it off. It theoretically wouldn’t damage the finish, but…not totally sure on that either. Also, those Mr. Clean magic erasers — just don’t rub too hard or it definitely will remove the finish.

      And would there be anyone in the office who would want to blame sometime silly and asinine on the interns for some really juvenile reason? My mother is aware of what those terms are, so saying that it’s textspeak doesn’t really mean much.

    7. Murphy*

      Dry erase markers will help get permanent markers off of a dry erase board, and alcohol usually cleans up the rest. But I have no idea how well this will work on a fridge.

      Otherwise, can you paint it? I don’t know…

    8. Frustrated Optimist*

      This works on plastic – not sure how it would work on metal…But scribble over the permanent marker with a dry erase marker. Then you can wipe it off, and the permanent marker comes off along with the dry erase marker. (Maybe try on a small area first?)

    9. Hermione*

      Wait, they went back and wrote “I didn’t know it was permanent marker” ALSO IN PERMANENT MARKER? This person is a jerk.

        1. k*

          I’d almost be tempted to use some sort of nanny cam to see if the culprit came back to add more. It’s just such an odd thing to do, it would drive me crazy not knowing who it was.

    10. Rusty Shackelford*

      I love that the culprit wrote they didn’t know it was permanent marker… in permanent marker.

      If none of the above solutions work to clean it, you could always repaint it or get one of those giant refrigerator clings/stickers to cover it.

    11. Bonky*

      Isopropyl alcohol will get it off, likely without any damage at all to your fridge. We’ve always got some kicking around in the office lab, but I also have a big bottle at home for stains and other kid-induced accidents (and for repotting shattered eyeshadows – it’s a multipurpose magic solvent!) – you can get a big bottle very cheaply on Amazon.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      Peppermint soap and a green plastic scrubbie WILL take it off. Peppermint soap is great with removing marker. I use it all the time. I write on whatever (storage containers, etc) with black marker and if I need to change it I just get out the peppermint soap.

      You may not even need the scrubbie.

      The two brands that I know of are Dr. Bronners and Dr. Woods. You can find them at some grocery stores, oddly in the health care aisle with liquid bath soaps. Or you can find them at an organic food store. You won’t need a ton. Dr. Bronners has a little bottle about 3 ounces or so. That will be more than enough. You spill out an amount about the size of a dime on to your towel/scrubbie, scrub for a bit, spill out some more of the same amount and scrub for a bit. It takes a minute to start working, then it just cuts that marker loose.

    15. LoFlo*

      If none of the cleaning tips help, you could cover the door with Contact paper. White, or a design of your choice.

    16. ..Kat..*

      What an ass.

      If the above suggestions don’t work, a blow torch will take the writing off easily…

    17. Artemesia*

      There are products specifically for this. Awkward — I would probably have a meeting with the interns and indicate that this would be a firing offense in any office so they might want to note that for the future. Yeah you never know though. There was a rather famous kerfuffle a few years ago when a company had problems with people defacing hallways and caught a rather high up person doing it — no one they would ever have suspected.

  11. JobSeeker017*

    Interview turned political

    On Monday, I participated in a 90-minute interview for a communications position for a small suburban city adjacent to a Midwestern metropolis.

    The interview consisted of the hiring manager, a retired police officer turned communications/IT director, asking me my thoughts on politics at the national, state and local levels as well as using the term “alternative facts” unironically. Of the 12 questions he asked, only about four pertained directly to communications style and strategy.

    I must confess to being caught entirely off-guard by the blatantly political nature of the interview as I was expecting a list of standard questions about strengths, weaknesses, experiences, conflict strategies, etc. Additionally, I am uncomfortable that my interview bragged that the city chose to elect only republicans for the past 20 years makes me uncomfortable in general.

    What are your thoughts, AAM community?

    1. Alice*

      I think you got a lot of useful information about that hiring manager and the culture of the office.

        1. JobSeeker017*

          SophieChotek:

          I certainly left the lengthy interview with an idea that I, a straight left-leaning woman, would not be comfortable in this culture.

          Between the talk of high taxes, an undercurrent of anti-immigrant sentiment, and direct complaints about constituent concerns (roundabouts and children near the roadways), I believe that I am better off waiting for a position that is in stronger alignment with my personal and political beliefs.

          The downside is that the position pays very well and would come with a generous benefits package.

          Sigh. Sometimes the job just isn’t a good fit.

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Agreed. I mean, I can see how a communications position with a city would involve speaking about local politics (or state/national and how they relate to the community). It sounds like they are looking for a candidate who will be comfortable talking about those things and agrees with them politically. If you don’t, then it’s probably not a good fit.

        1. JobSeeker017*

          Detective Amy Santiago:

          The interview veered off the standard path when the former police chief turned IT/Communications director mentioned the desire to see another fiscally conservative republican assume the mayoral position when the current mayor’s term ended in 2019. He continued this line of discussion by mentioning how a change in leadership could affect his employment with the city.

          I considered this excessive and inappropriate for a first-round interview for a mid-level communications position vacancy in spring 2017.

          Perhaps it’s for the best that I realize the position isn’t a good fit for me now.

          Thanks for sharing your feedback.

      3. Falling Diphthong*

        +1 They told you right off that working with alternative facts will be a regular part of this job. Run.

    3. Clumsy Clara*

      I think that if your political views don’t align, or if you prefer to keep politics out of work (or both), it’s safe to say you won’t be happy at that job.

    4. MoinMoin*

      That would be a super uncomfortable interview for me, but ultimately I’d be glad to have that information upfront.

    5. Kinsley M.*

      Given that it was a city position, I’m not all that surprised. My husband works for a local municipality as well. Especially given that it was communications, they need to make sure you are going to fit in with the culture of the city, which is apparently very conservative. They don’t want their official communications sounding that the person writing them is in complete disagreement.

      Now, that they didn’t actually ask any normal, technical questions about the position is bonkers. But political and culture information regarding the community is 100% relevant information that a candidate needs to know.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Good thought here. And it is true that some places do screen for how like-minded a candidate is for [reasons].

    6. Juli G.*

      The unironic use of alternative facts alone is a deal breaker if you are interested in working for an ethical employer.

      1. Juli G.*

        And to be clear, I don’t mean to paint a specific political view as unethical. I just mean that that phrase raises an ethical red flag for me.

    8. Clever Name*

      My main thought is “don’t work there”. I used to work for a very large city, and the politics as a city employee were kind of nuts. I was caught up in a political power-play aimed at my boss (I got an undeserved letter of reprimand on my last day- I was moving on because I got another job). I’m white, and my white coworkers seemed surprised when I didn’t agree with them that there was rampant “reverse racism” in our department. (The director and one assistant director were black, so I guess in the south that equals racism against white people)

      1. JobSeeker017*

        Clever Name:

        Yes, I agree with your takeaway and am sympathetic to your previous plight.

        When the conversation took a weird turn toward being anti-immigrant, I forcibly contorted my face into a strained but polite smile instead of an outright cringe. The metropolitan area has an incredibly high number of Somali immigrants, which troubles many middle class white people, who account for 84 percent of the population in this particular suburb.

    9. Dzhymm, BfD*

      It’s too bad these things tend to catch us off guard. It would be nice to be with-it enough to recognize in real time that the interview is toast and to have some fun with it: “‘Alternative facts’? Oh, you mean ‘lies’, right?”. Too many times they get away with this stuff because they know they’re in a dominant position and can take it for all it’s worth…

      1. JobSeeker017*

        Dzhymm, BfD:

        Thank you for posting this comment!

        On the drive home, I mentally kicked myself for failing to seize the opportunity and call the interviewer out on his use of “alternative facts” during our discussion. I should have thrown caution to the wind and asked him point blank, “lies, right?”.

        Again, I appreciate the posting!

    10. jamlady*

      It’s not them being republicans I’d care about (I’m around people all over the spectrum all the live long day) – it’s that they clearly have a culture where it’s appropriate to talk heavily about politics, and no matter where your beliefs lie, that just sounds like a huge pain to me. I don’t want to hear about that at work.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I am with you, jamlady.

        I want to be focused on the work. I am at saturation level with news.

        Just an aside, I have worked for several small municipalities. No one talks about politics. They just talk about the nuts and bolts of how to run the municipality- fix this road, streetlight is out over there, need new sidewalks, whoops, computer broke. There is a bizillion other things to talk about.

        1. Drew*

          Thirded on the news saturation. The guy with the desk directly opposite mine is a news/politics junkie and I am beyond sick of discussing this with friends and family; I don’t need it at work as well. (No, my job doesn’t have anything to do with politics directly, so it’s not work-related, either.)

    11. Elizabeth West*

      Wow. Once they started in, I wouldn’t have lasted ten minutes before getting up and saying, “Thanks for agreeing to meet with me today, but I don’t think I would be a good fit for this position.” Way to show you what the culture would be like. So I guess that’s a good thing?

      Listen to your gut.

    12. Anony Oz*

      Reposting as I was late to the party last week:

      Seeking perspectives and advice:

      I’m leaving a job after less than a year where I know the manager is incompetent, unprofessional and manipulative. I’ve seen it play out first hand with other staff that have now left and also been a victim of it myself in many smaller ways. (Think: smear campaigns, Excluding high-performing reports from team initiatives because she felt threatened, blatant lies to her boss about her whereabouts, pretending her kid is sick to get paid time off, but posting Instagram pics of them doing very ‘non-sick-kid’ things, and very unethical conduct in her use of work time for personal gain, ousting employees that have been performing well out of their roles because they don’t benefit her agenda, as well as poor management of our team members in general.)
      Her boss has an inkling about this behaviour but his kind nature tends to avoid conflict. And when confronted, she often twists the conversation to appear like a struggling victim who should be supported and made exception for, rather than having to change. A typical conversation will start with a report or manager saying to her, ‘I’ve noticed xyz is happening and it’s making me feel the negative feelings of abc (or having negative consequences to my work).’ But her typical response will be, ‘Well abcdefghijklmnop has been happening to me – feel sorry for poor me poor me poor me.’ For the whole conversation, without ever addressing the concern raised. Pushback on this by saying ‘Ok, sorry to hear that but you still need to address xyz’, results in either more babble to change the topic and in some cases, retaliation – being avoided and excluded altogether because she know you’re trying to get to the truth. She does this to her boss too, not just to reports and You basically go on her blacklist if you can’t be manipulated into sympathising with her ‘plight’, which is usually a bunch of small nothings inflated out of proportion to make it seem like the rest of the organisation is incompetent and plotting against her.

      Interestingly, on the day I resigned she told me she found out her superiors are investigating her for bullying type misconduct. This came about after a manager at her level resigned and sent a telling email to selected colleagues about the treatment she’d received for months (attempts at mediation had failed).

      I have a feeling the investigation is being conducted by HR just to cover their own backs. (But maybe they want her gone, who knows). Either way, news she is being investigated has majorly erked her gherkin. She told me in no uncertain terms her game plan was to work from home the following week and get a new job as soon as possible. (She’s been saying she hates the place and is getting a new job since I started).

      The problem I now have is that on the Monday after I resigned with 2weeks notice, manager emailed our department saying she received very upsetting news on the Friday and wouldn’t be in (no explanation or timeframes given), and in the same email followed this up with a sentence that I was also resigning. She did this before I’d even arrived at work or had the chance to tell my closest colleagues I’d resigned late Friday, which was hurtful. On top of that, everyone in the office now thinks I have something to do with her ‘upsetting news’ when in reality she’s brought this investigation on herself with her own behaviour! (A colleague tipped me off that this was the gossip going around because of her email). I feel completely manipulated again – we work in communications and she knew exactly what effect that would have on our office.

      My main concern is pretty much just to leave on good terms with all parties. As much as I don’t agree with her conduct, what goes around comes around and I feel she’s already ruined her career enough without me needing to do anything.

      But I have three questions which I feel I need answers to to better deal with these kind of situations in the future – a) Is there any excuse for this behaviour as a top level manager that I am missing?
      b) if not, is she just a weak manager or does this actually sound like someone with sociopathic tendencies? Can those type of people learn to change or are they screwed up in the head?
      c) how to handle a situation where your gut is extremely confident someone is lying, but you cant call them a liar outright for professional reasons – should you make them think you believe them (for the sake of keeping the peace) or is it better to call them on their behaviour in the hope they learn from their mistakes that people aren’t actually idiots?

      What would people here conclude?

      1. Chaordic One*

        Well, the part about the manager sending the emailing is upsetting, but not really surprising after all of the other things she has done. Yeah, she probably has sociopathic tendencie. I’d let it go and keep my mouth shut.

        When you can’t call them a liar, you could call them on their behavior, but they’ll inevitably have an excuse or rationalization. They are unlikely to learn from their mistakes, so it probably isn’t worth the effort. You could play dumb and pretend you didn’t notice, or that you were unaware of how rude and dishonest they are.

        Be happy that you found another job and are able to take care of yourself by moving on. You’ve done the right thing for you.

    13. ..Kat..*

      If I were in this situation, I would ask “we are talking about a lot of political topics that people tend to feel strongly about. I have found that talking politics in the last few years can be very polarizing and put many people off. Does the person taking this job need to have strong, conservative political views and need to talk about these views a lot?” Even if the answer is “no,” you still know that you will be talked at a lot by someone with strong, conservative political views.

  12. ThatGirl*

    So I got laid off (RIF) a few weeks ago.

    I have two gripes for the week… the first is that my old company swore they would handle my personal belongings with care, and they did NOT … stuff was missing and everything got tossed into a big box with no care, including three small, fragile clay figurines that HAD BOXES in my overhead bin, and were instead left to break (they’re not valuable, per se, but they are one of a kind and were gifts from my husband).

    The second is ATS systems that are terrible. There was one I got all the way through, finally, and then it made me take a 100-question personality test just to submit the application. Ugh.

    1. ThatGirl*

      Oh, and! One of my former co-workers got rehired for a different position, which I’m very happy for him…. he told me he has to take a(nother) drug screen. Is that weird and untrusting or is it just me?

      1. SophieChotek*

        It might just be a legal/HR requirement. He got laid off, he got rehired, so he’s a new hire and has to go through the entire hiring process again. That’s how I would read it. Maybe I’m wrong.

      2. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

        ShophieChotek is probably right, though I find it a little ridiculous since he hasn’t been separated for a significant amount of time (if at all?). However, I tend to find drug screenings in general to be overly invasive unless there’s a pressing BFOQ that requires it (i.e., Anon Ymous HR professional’s situation above).

        1. ThatGirl*

          I mean, we’re talking three weeks — I could see it if someone resigned and came back several months later, but this is not that.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Thanks. I have a lot of applications out there, I am crossing my fingers for some interview calls.

        Re: the drug screen, I’m sure it’s an HR requirement, it just seems silly to me. But so do drug screens in general in a professional, white-collar environment.

    3. KarenD*

      I just can’t get over the casual cruelty of tossing obviously fragile items in a box to break, knowing that the owner of those items has already been dealt a pretty major blow.

      I hope you find a great new job that treats you with more kindness and respect!

      2. ThatGirl*

        Thank you. It was (is) a big, corporate environment but even so… ugh. If I’d known they would be so careless I would have demanded someone go get them from my desk before I left.

    5. Chaordic One*

      Take your former employer to small claims court.

      Really!

      I had a former coworker who sued our employer for exactly this same thing when she was let go. She got a check for a couple of hundred dollars and kind of a half-way snotty apology letter from one of her several supervisors.

  13. Lily in NYC*

    We interviewed someone last week for an executive assistant role, and when she was asked about a weakness, she said that she never has to use Powerpoint in her current role – so that if this position was powerpoint-heavy, she said she would need to train herself to get back up to speed.
    I’m curious what you all think about getting a “tangible” answer like powerpoint instead of something more abstract, like time management. It doesn’t bother me (mainly because it’s an admin role and she has a great resume and did very well in our testing) but my boss thought it was kind of a cop out.

    2. Bree*

      Aren’t all answers to this question kind of a cop-out, though? She told you a legitimate area where she would need to improve, which is more than a lot of people would do. In an interview scenario where you’re trying to impress people, I think most people dodge this question through vagueness or through listing a weakness that might also be perceived as a strength (like perfectionism.)

      I think this is a silly thing for your boss to be concerned about. What’s wrong with specificity and “tangible” answers, anyway?

      1. Lily in NYC*

        I personally don’t think it’s worth asking at all. My boss is a total hard-ass and is very difficult to impress. And my team members all come from high-level management consulting, which is known for scary interviews with difficult case studies. They just don’t understand how to interview admins.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        There was the guy who based his soft skills on a fictional character who was murdering his way to the presidency. Though I think he saw that as a plus, not a weakness.

    3. Dawn*

      Well, did you ask “What is one of your weaknesses” or did you ask “what is your biggest professional weakness”? Because if you asked the former, then the interviewee is technically correct- maybe not the strongest answer, but I wouldn’t call it a cop-out. If you asked the latter, then yeah that’s definitely a cop-out answer.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        I wasn’t there so I don’t know the verbatim wording. I was just in the debrief meeting.

    4. Robin B*

      I think that’s a better answer than something like “Well I’m a perfectionist so I work overtime too much and I care too much.”

        1. Lily in NYC*

          I once said I was “anally prompt” in an interview and the entire interview panel burst into laughter. But I got the job!

    5. EA*

      I think it is far better than the real cop out answers like being a perfectionist.

      She seemed to handle it well – she said she would train herself. I think that is what admins need to do – you need to learn new technology quickly.

      Also I know this is off topic- but what testing do you do for admins? I am now helping hire and wanted to suggest some.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        I’m not sure – HR does the testing except for our case studies (which we don’t give to admins). I think it’s just a proofreading/grammar test. I’m not sure if there’s a Microsoft Office test but I’m positive we don’t test typing speed. And I don’t think the testing is mandatory; it’s up to the hiring manager for each position. But I know there are lots of free testing options you can find online – maybe you can find one that looks good and then tailor it to your own needs.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I hate the Microsoft tests that don’t let you choose how to access functions–like if you have to go through the drop-down menus but it doesn’t tell you that, so you get dinged for using a command or a shortcut or right clicking.

          I also hate typing tests. Almost everyone can use a keyboard these days and I get nervous and make far more mistakes than I would normally.

          2. many bells down*

            The problem I have with typing tests is that I know immediately when I’ve made a mistake and hit backspace. But you get dinged for that, even if it doesn’t slow down your typing speed at all.

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        My office uses ProveIt. They have tests for all different types of software and skills.

      3. FishcakesHurrah*

        I use the perfectionist answer because for me it’s true. I take too long to complete some tasks because I fuss over trivial details that no one but me cares about or notices.

        1. Dizzy Steinway*

          Even if it’s true, people will be highly likely to judge this unfavourably – I’d honestly advise you to pick something else.

        2. Lily in NYC*

          It doesn’t matter if it’s true – you really shouldn’t use it because every interviewer hates that answer.

        3. Duckie*

          Could you rework the answer? Instead of perfectionism maybe say you’re sometimes too detail oriented and follow up with ways you keep the bigger picture in mind? It would sound less cliche.

    6. Turanga Leela*

      I always feel like answers to that question are a cop-out! It’s hard to come up with something that is a real weakness that you’re working on, but not so serious that it would cause real issues with the job. I wouldn’t hold it against her, but that’s mostly because I can’t think of many times when I’ve heard useful answers to that question.

      1. Whoever*

        “I always feel like answers to that question are a cop-out! It’s hard to come up with something that is a real weakness that you’re working on, but not so serious that it would cause real issues with the job.”

        Yeah. Like I’m totally gonna tell an employer that I tend to stress out easily, to the point of it triggering depressive episodes of sleeplessness and a desire to kill myself.

    7. Claudia M.*

      The “what is your weakness” question is silly, in my opinion.

      If you’re 5/5 on everything, but 4/5 on time management, that is now your weakness, despite it still being better than most.

      There are many positions that never review performance with employees. Those employees may genuinely not know what they struggle with if the manager does not communicate.

      Final thought was that, in an admin role, she was leaning towards thinking about the new area and what the new area might require, and what she might be lacking to make that happen. That is an expected and desired trait in state government interviews typically (your whole interview should be geared to what your bring to the new position), but I can see that being different in private sector.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        Yeah, I agree. I don’t ask it when I interview candidates but my boss does. We are a quasi-governmental office but we have a very corporate environment. It feels more “private sector” here than when I really did work in the private sector!

      2. Troutwaxer*

        My weakness is that I have no comprehension of how that question can be asked in any serious interview! I mean, like nobody expects that question and you imagine that you’re going to get an honest answer!

    8. AndersonDarling*

      Actually, I think that is a great example of a weakness. The candidate has been thinking of her qualifications vs the position and she was very honest about a shortcoming. That’s 10x better than the old standby “I’m too much of a perfectionist” or “I’m too friendly and supportive of my co-workers.”

      1. Lily in NYC*

        Honestly, I liked it too and was thinking of using something similar myself until my boss was annoyed by it. That’s why I’m asking!

    9. Betty*

      That is the worst interview question ever.

      I wish employers would ask real questions that matter.

      1. Bonky*

        It is a dreadful, dreadful question – right up there with “If you were an animal, what animal would you be?”

        I always use behavioural questions in interview; the closest I’ll ever come to this will be something like “Tell me about a situation you found difficult to navigate at work, and how you handled it.” You’ll learn so much more about a candidate’s approach, personality and strengths than you might with some of the old chestnuts.

        (On a related note: it’s worth diamonds if your organisation sends people doing recruitment for training on this stuff. A good awareness of best practice and being really thought in to how to do it well means better hires, and is incredibly valuable in the long run.)

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I keep wishing someone would ask me the what-tree-would-you-be question. If they do, I’m gonna say “A mallorn tree.” If they know what that is, then we’re halfway to a great working relationship, haha. #nerds

          1. Lily in NYC*

            I just want to say “The Larch” so bad. (I know there have to be some Monty Python fans here)

            2. Bonky*

              So it seems you, Elizabeth and I would have an absolutely KICK-ASS working relationship. :)

    10. Elizabeth H.*

      Interesting question. I don’t think it’s a cop out because it is a legitimate weakness, and also sort of ballsy to say something you legitimately would need to work on rather than something that can be spun like a humble brag or different people having different natural abilities. But it sort of depends on whether the position is something you would reasonably expect to use PowerPoint at least occasionally. I have had to use PowerPoint for work maybe twice in my entire life so I would feel like it was a copout if I said it. So I think it depends on how useful for the job it actually would be.

      1. Lily in NYC*

        Great – I liked it too but was second-guessing myself after my boss’ reaction. But it seems like she’s the one with the minority opinion, not me.

    12. Nanc*

      The What is/are your biggest strength/weakness question can be so subjective. I’ve had better luck rephrasing them and asking If I were to ask your most current manager, what would they say is your biggest strength in your position? What would they say you need to improve on in this position?

      I then follow up and ask them why they agree/ disagree.

      I’m pretty sure I got this idea somewhere on AAM but it’s made a big difference in the interview process.

    14. EA2*

      Kudos to the candidate for giving an ‘out of the box’ answer, that’s one of the best I’ve heard to date! The other commenters are 100% correct. Admins must learn new technologies and adapt quickly to keep up with whomever they’re supporting.

      I’m an EA who works in marketing and sometimes I use Adobe programs more often then PowerPoint. Last year, there was a time where I was highly engrossed in designing documents and photoshopping images, that when it came time to create a new PowerPoint presentation, I had to play around a bit to adjust to the functionality again.

      What kind of response was your boss looking to hear? If he thinks the answer was a ‘cop out’ then what does he consider an acceptable response?

    15. Not So NewReader*

      I would say to the boss that I did not think the question was that useful so to me the answer is neutral. Then I would redirect by asking the boss what she thought a good answer looked like. Sometimes people don’t even know what it is that they are looking for. I’d suggest that she had picked something she was not good at and told the boss how she would get better at it. There’s not much more you can ask for here.

    16. Loz*

      The onus is on you to ask a question that you care about the answer to. If you’re just fishing around like this then don’t push it if someone isn’t tuned into whatever you are thinking to this (quite frankly crap) question. Think about what you were hoping to learn and why you didn’t end up learning anything.

  14. Bethlam*

    Does your company have a record retention policy? Our parent company, Huge Conglomerate, has a very specific, detailed retention policy for all records: personnel, accounting, audit, health and safety, shipping & receiving, benefits, compliance, etc., etc. Depending on the record, the retention policy might be 1 year, 3 years, 10 years, A+years (active + a number of years), or indefinite. We even have a retention policy category for retention records!

    Do you have a policy where you work? Is it similar? If you don’t, what do you do with your records? Save everything? How? In boxes or digitally? Do you purge every so often? In some sort of order or indiscriminately when you need more room in storage? As it’s A Big Thing at my company, and I’ll be moving on in a few months when our facility is closed, I just wondered how other businesses handled this.

    1. Zip Silver*

      Yeah, we have different lengths for different things. 3 years is standard for most stuff, but things related to taxes get held on to for longer.

      It all gets put into bankers boxes and shoved into a storage room.

    2. SophieChotek*

      I know my business saves everything. I am not at all involved in the saving/storing process and I do know due to change over in personnel things have gotten overlooked and slipped through, etc., but I heard the business had to rent a facility just to store all our paperwork, permits, tax records, etc., etc. I know my former VP wanted the Director of Operations to purge and see if we could save money but saving just what we need at main office and not go back till the beginning of time, but my impression is the Director of Operations would rather keep everything “to be safe” plus he’s the only one who has been with the company the entire time at would know what could be purged or not and he works like 80 hour week as it is. So yeah, I guess our policy is keep everything…you never know…we might get audited or need it someday…

    3. Wumba*

      I work in manufacturing and we are required to keep some records for a certain number of years as well. My company is rather small, but we supply a large, well known auto manufacturer and they have certain requirements that we have to follow: shipping documents have to be kept so long, quality records, production reports, etc. Our range is generally 3 years to 5 years to 10 years.

    4. Cassandra*

      So, the point of records management is to make sure the records (print and digital) your workplace is legally responsible for — that is, could get into legal trouble without — are there as long as they are needed and no longer.

      This is not an area to slap together half-heartedly. I strongly suggest contracting with a freelance records manager (they exist!) to help you build records schedules and procedures. No court will be impressed with “well, we just couldn’t find it!”

    5. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      Yes we have very specific policies based on the type of information in the documents, similar to what you outlined for your company. All of the files are digital and the purge process is automated.

      At my old (finance) company we had paper files that were stored off-site once they weren’t needed in the office anymore. They were theoretically stored for 7 years and purged after that. No idea about digital files. No one was really “in charge” of this process so when an auditor would show up, we would get ding-ed and would purge based on their findings. Not the best process and I’m sure random papers were stored indefinitely until someone noticed. Lord only knows what was in the off-site facility or in a random file cabinet in the office.

    7. Triangle Pose*

      Yes and I can’t think of a company that doesn’t have one. I also can’t think of any reason that you shouldn’t have one…

    8. Sibley*

      My company does, in fact we may work for the same company!

      In my experience as an auditor however, I think this level is uncommon.

    9. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      Yes, I work in higher ed and we have a retention policy. We generally scan everything and then shred the hard copies, so our retention policy is mostly for the electronic records.

    10. Leena Wants Cake*

      While I’ve never been part of an organization that carried it out very well, sound records management policies and practices are a vital function for any organization that intends to have a long-term existence. Unfortunately, most places don’t realize how important this function is until they urgently need data or documents from previous years–at which point it may be too late to reconstruct. Another issue–particularly in larger organizations–is that the folks in change of records management are not often aware of the kinds of documents produced by different facets of the org or their relative value. Similarly, folks working in the offices don’t often understand why deliberately saving (or destroying) the documents they generate could possibly be important. And even orgs that were managing paper records effectively are still struggling with the need to manage digital ones. Effective records management protects the organization (by ensuring that it retains certain records as required by law), preserves organizational knowledge (since there is a record of significant past actions), and ensures that space (physical or digital) is not taken up by files that are no longer needed.

    11. Clever Name*

      We have an informal retention policy that boils down to “save stuff sent to clients and field notes/lab data forever, but don’t save any drafts ever.” I’m involved in trying to craft one, and it’s been surprisingly difficult.

    12. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      I’m a government employee and we do have extensive retention requirements. We have a file plan for electronic storage and follow it for physical storage as well, meaning we box up items based on their location within the electronic storage plan. Here’s the important part: ALL locations have the exact same file plan. Our auditors/inspectors can go into any office and be able to find the documentation they need because the file plan is clear for where it is.

      That is what your aim should be. Talk to other locations or get guidance from higher levels on what best practices are, then follow those directives.

    13. Damn it, Hardison!*

      As someone who writes and enforces records retention policies for a living, I may be more than a little biased. It sounds like your company is doing the right thing. It’s best to purge in the course of regular business but realistically events like closures and moves often drive destruction (when else is anyone going to clean out that mystery closet in the basement?). With the closure of a facility it’s important that the records get kept/destroyed per retention policy and not just thrown out because no one is going to need them for ongoing business (assuming it’s not part of the entire company closing). Depending on the nature of the records they may need to be retained for legal or regulatory purposes after the facility has been closed.

      1. Bethlam*

        That’s actually what I’ve been and will be working on – AND with the retention policy in my hand – the retention policy is taken Very Seriously by my parent company, and thus with all of the offspring companies. We’ve been here 67 years and, as personnel records fall in the “indefinite” category, I will be learning how to batch and send a lot of documents to Papervision for digital storage, and many boxes of other documents will be sent to our corporate offices with destruction dates on the boxes per the retention policy.

    14. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I also work in higher ed. While we have an official retention policy what usually ends up happening is that everything is shoved into a moldy basement storage room until there is no more room, then some poor lowest level administrative assistant who usually hasn’t been with the university for long is tasked with cleaning out and organizing the room — using their best judgement about what’s important. Paper files that are 20 years old are shredded, and electronic copies which have been so carefully “archived” to floppy disks and ZIP disks, are stored in an old bankers box which has been shoved over the years next to the HVAC and electrical utilities, and are now completely unreadable by todays technology… and repeat.

      We also have a university archivist who has the task of identifying and preserving items that might be of “historical” value. But none of the administrative assistants ever think to involve them when they purge documents. So we have the dinner program and a napkin from the third annual big fundraising dinner for the College of Teapots within Dinnerware University, but no one has any idea where to find the documents that pertain to the founding of the college, the original faculty and administration, funding, etc.

      1. JeanB*

        Yeah, I was that lowly admin. I was lucky enough to be able to grab a couple of maintenance workers who pulled out the boxes from the storage in the basement and cleaned them off enough that I was able to actually touch them. We did have a retention policy (university) but I think the department just kept everything.

        1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          You have my sympathies. I hate keeping paper files because they are such a waste of time creating and a waste of space storing. For the last 10 years, I’ve just never needed to refer back to anything older than 2 years and probably couldn’t find it if I did.

    15. Kate*

      I work in finance and since we’re a “regulated financial entity”, we have legal requirements for record keeping. The interesting thing I learned, was that in most legal/regulatory cases, it wasn’t good enough to say “we don’t have the woosit-report of 2011 anymore because we have a 5 year record retention period per our policy”, if you didn’t have proof of destruction, you were still liable to produce it (and fine-able if you couldn’t). Which could drive some record retention policies in corporate America.

      For the destruction, most places I’ve worked have been big enough that they use a service like Iron Mountain, which provides off-site storage and eventual automated destruction of your record boxes, with a handy system that provides reports on what you have in storage, who put it there, what’s in the boxes, and when they were destroyed.

    16. kab*

      I work for a company that deals with record digitization and databasing, so I’m having to restrain myself from sales-pitching at you.

      1. Bethlam*

        LOL. I don’t get to choose – I have to use the record digitization and databasing vendor that our corporate office uses.

    17. Meredith*

      Many businesses have a records managers who create records retention policies that comply with the law, and maintain records schedules. Often they will also provide training about records management to various departments. There’s a whole certification process for records managers that many of them go through.

    18. Agile Phalanges*

      I “got to” help create/implement one at my last company. We consulted with our CPAs, HR organizations, etc., to come up with the guidelines. Some things were basically to be kept forever, others for 7 years, some for 3, etc. We were kind of at the cusp of being paperless when we first started, so we had a LOT of paper files we were able to purge. We’d been renting three storage units, cut it down to two pretty quickly, down to one after a couple more years of purging, and then they shut the office down and I was laid off, and I think they had very few paper records they had to ship to the new headquarters.

      The paper records, we set up an appointment each year with the shredding truck, and a couple employees went out a day or two before to flag all the boxes that could be destroyed. You CAN chuck them into the truck box and all, but it’s more economical to pay by the large trash-can-type bin, so we dumped them into there, then saved the boxes either for further paper files, or fore employees to take home for storage/moving (standard file boxes are GREAT for moving relatively heavy items, legal for not-so-heavy things).

      For electronic files, we were less good about going through them on a regular basis (paying rent on a storage unit gave us more more incentive than freeing up a couple gigabytes on a giant server did), but we DID get around to doing it every so often. IT kept us up to date on archiving e-mails (they would burn them to DVD discs for us so we could still access stuff older than the cutoff of a year or three, though, which came in handy more than once), and we would ask them to do the same for our electronic files every so often (made easier by us dragging and dropping stuff into its own “archive” folder, then they would just burn that folder to DVD and eventually delete it from the server.

    19. joe*

      EVERY company should have proper retention rules in compliance with HIPPA, Sarbanes-Oxley, DoD, and compliant with State local and Federal regulation, ADDITIONALLY what in legal situations must be retained for liability purposes.

    20. Chaordic One*

      At Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. we saved all hard copies of personnel records and all product and sales records. Other things were saved for a year or two, except for warranties and contracts. We were in the middle of moving to a supposedly completely online system where we would scan copies of the paper records and save them as PDFs in the new less-efficient computer system.

      They were going to start shredding paper records of what had been scanned, but I’m not sure what timeline they wanted to use for that. It would not have been until well after everything was backed up online, probably a couple of months or so after the sale.

  15. Zip Silver*

    We had layoffs a few weeks ago. Yesterday I officially got my promotion offer… Relocation, in a more desirable are (to me), was offered slightly above market and negotiated for an extra 3k.

    Gonna go celebrate tonight!

    1. JobSeeker017*

      Zip Silver, congratulations on the promotion offer!

      Enjoy your well-deserved celebration!

  16. Hellanon*

    I just wanted to pop in to say thank you to Alison & the AAM commentariat – I have been reading the site devotedly and in depth for probably 3 years now, and it has been like a master class in management. I took on a huge stretch position about 18 months ago – went from technical writer/faculty to head of a department, with direct reports and collaborative relationships across the institution – and I really do credit all of you for making it possible for me to a) understand what I need to do and b) do it well. So consider yourselves thanked and given a round of applause!

  17. Kinsley M.*

    I have been helping my husband look for jobs. He has been in his current position for about 4 years, and it was his first role after graduating (beyond his internship). I’ve been noticing that many jobs are asking for a high number of references – like 6 or more. The wording is always phrased as “at least 6 professional references.” When did 3 stop being the norm? He could probably send 5, but two would be from his internships in graduate school which seem rather useless now. Am I crazy or is this many references actually an expected thing now?

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      The only thing I can think of is that they want contact information for more people than they actually need to talk to because reference calls can be a crapshoot. Six is a lot.

    3. BenAdminGeek*

      I’ve not seen that before. That’s crazy overkill. It’s not like he’s applying to be CFO.

      1. Kinsley M.*

        Yea, definitely not. His current position is entry-level in title, mid-level in duties. He just wants to move to mid-level in both duties and titles (and pay!). While he loves his current organization, they’re just not big enough to have the need (or finances) for the mid-level position. They simply have the senior level and him. I just can’t even fathom giving six references for a mid-level position. I’m not sure how they expect anyone to have that many references coming from the entry-level position anyways. Do they expect six people from your first role to have left and be available without tipping your current position off? I work in HR and I’m just stumped. I’d never ask or expect more than 3. If I wanted more, I’d call past employers myself.

        1. Lo Squared*

          It’s been pretty standard for me to have to provide 5 at each of my 3 jobs following grad school. I work in healthcare as an allied health professional (not a nurse, like NP/PA level, but not). Granted, those have all been at hospitals, but I literally could not move past that part without providing 5. I believe they sent out an online questionnaire to my references.

    6. Lemon Zinger*

      That’s ridiculous! I’ve never heard of a company or graduate program asking for more than three.

    7. AshK434*

      Yea, I noticed that too. From my experience, companies that use SkillSurvey to solicit references require at least five references now and I believe at least three have to be former managers. It’s a pain.

  18. gwal*

    I recently posted about deciding how to finish my career development program–stay in temporary analysis position or return to technical position where I was originally hired. Turns out the Big Boss won’t allow for the kind of maneuvering required to stay in the analysis position, so I’m back in the technical job. It’s rather disappointing but that’s life.

  19. Dawn*

    Anxiously awaiting what I hope will be / think will probably be an offer after a FANTASTIC interview on Wednesday with an AMAZING company!!! Gosh, this waiting is so haaaaaard, tho my hiring liaison said that it might be early next week- “we might be able to get everything together by Friday but definitely no later than early next week!”

    Arrrghhhh cannot come a moment too soon because I am at Office Space “burn the building down” levels of hating my current job.

    I would not have made it this far without Alison and all the great AAM commenters!!! So thank you all and a HUGE THANK YOU to Alison for helping me with my resume after I purchased a resume review!!!

  20. Audiophile*

    Week 2 in new job is wrapping up. There’s talk of me receiving a work laptop and phone. I think I’ll forgot the phone, since there’s really no need for me to have one. A work laptop would definitely be useful.

    Last night was the organization’s anniversary gala, it did not go as well as one would hope. One of the award recipients canceled in the morning and so there was some tense moments. I helped wherever I could but largely felt unneeded.

    I’m starting to let myself relax a bit and enjoy this job after so much crap at previous jobs. But my guard is definitely still up.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Glad your 2nd week seems to be going well.
      (And what did they do about award recipients? Announce with ‘So and so could no join us tonight but the award for best teapot goes to…” or did they award it to someone else?)

      1. Audiophile*

        The recipient sent a family member to accept the award and make a short speech. While it seemed to be well received by the audience, it was definitely tense for the staff. I’d feel pretty comfortable saying this person was a big draw for ticket buyers, there were no ticket levels, just one set price and that price was pretty expensive. Overall, it went as well as it could have.

    2. new job*

      you and me both. my husband and a few close friends have said it’s almost like i have PTSD and need to adjust to a new balance. there are no fire alarms here. there is no snark. everyone is friendly.

      1. Audiophile*

        It’s tough.

        I’m being praised for picking things up quickly, like software and processes, but it still feels like a mistake is just around the corner and I’ll be out of a job. I don’t think I will feel fully settled until I hit six months or a year.

        That’s quite a ways away, but I had two, technically three (third job was a contract role) short stint jobs. There’s a lot of pressure for this one to be the one that sticks.

  21. MariaC*

    I got a new job! Next week will be my last week as a secretary and I’m moving into a position as a financial coordinator. I’m super nervous and I’m feeling a bit intimidated. I have already started to do a little bit of training for my new role (it’s an internal move) and I’m realizing how under prepared I feel. I’m also in school full time for my graduate degree so that’s added on to the pressure and stress I’m feeling. I know this thinking isn’t rational because they hired me afterall, but it’s how I feel. Not sure what else to say about it but I just felt like venting about it a little.

    1. BenAdminGeek*

      The hardest part for me on internal transfers is that you feel like you have to be 100% proficient day 1. But you don’t, really. Push past that imposter syndrome- they picked you because they want you in the role, and in 6 months it’ll all be old hat to you. You already know the culture, which is a huge win.

        1. Dina*

          If it helps, I had an internal transfer/promotion into a department I had been lending a hand to for a year and half, assisting them with similar (but easier) work than the position I now have (I absorbed the duties I was previously already doing as well and did come into this position with some knowledge). I completely understand how you feel, but you’re fine and you’ll get there! Don’t be too hard on yourself, ask for feedback, especially if you’re comfortable with your supervisor (I ask “how am I doing” when the time feels right), and just know that there’s a learning curve. You’re gonna be great! Good luck!

    2. JenM*

      Congratulations. I’d like to move on from my role as a Medical Secretary but don’t know where to start so well done you for making the move!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You can feel under prepared but you will be okay. Let your nervousness help to keep you sharp. Go one day at a time. Each morning tell yourself, “I will do my absolute best today.” Just keep repeating this sentence each morning.

  22. Dankar*

    My university has recently opened a position that’s perfect for my best friend (who received her degree and did her assistantship in the field that department is hiring for). I’m new to my role, having only been in the position for about 3 months now. I’ve brought her here to check out the area and have encouraged my friend to apply to jobs in my location and she’ll be turning in an app to the aforementioned position this week.

    My questions are these:

    1) How appropriate is it to me to send a heads up to the department that’s hiring for the position, given that I’m so new? I know one of the people who works in the same role socially and I suspect it’s her coworker who is vacating the position.

    2) Who would be the best person to talk to about my connection to one of the applicants? Would it be the hiring member? HR?

    This is my first post-graduate job, so I don’t want to misstep, but I’m more than confident in my friend’s work ethic and her ability to excel in the role. Gah!

    1. Alex*

      I work in a public university (don’t know if yours is private), and discussing a candidate with HR is not acceptable. There are very strict rules in place to prevent nepotism. If you aren’t the hiring manager and especially if it’s not even in the department you work in, stay out of it. That’s my advice, but I would be interested to see if others would say differently.

      1. Dankar*

        We’re private, so it’s a bit more flexible. It’s also an administrative position, so perhaps a bit less nepotistically-inclined.

        This is why I’m asking, though–I don’t really want to step in it, being so new to this whole thing.

      2. TIG*

        Also work at a public college. Our applications specifically ask if the applicant knows any current employees and if so what is the relationship. This is mostly to prevent nepotism. I agree with Alex that you shouldn’t say anything unless somebody in HR asks you about your friend, otherwise it will look weird, especially since you are new. If somebody in the hiring dept. or HR says: “Dankar, how do you know Candidate and what is your opinion on their ability to do X?” would be the only time it would be ok to say something in this situation. Otherwise you’ve already helped your friend enough by encouraging her to apply and showing her around the area. I hope it goes well for both of you!

    2. Clumsy Clara*

      I work for a private university – generally there isn’t much harm in doing this kind of reach out, and in fact an unsolicited recommendation from my old boss is what got me an interview for my current job. However, as a brand new employee unless you are very high up you’re less likely to have any real impact on this process. My old boss is faculty and had a connection to the hiring manager so that’s what did it for me.

      In this case if you are social with someone in the department that’s hiring, I think your best bet would be to mention to them that you saw the position was open and you know someone who you think would be well-suited. Again, depending on your own seniority and theirs nothing may come of it but at my university there wouldn’t be any harm in doing this.

      My university runs on networking and connections, so it’s really interesting to hear how different public universities are.

    3. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      I work at a private university and I wouldn’t send a heads up to anyone in the department unless you’re good friends with them. Otherwise, you risk the chance of making it seem like you’re pressuring those people to give your friend a chance.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      I work at a public university.

      Do not contact HR about your friend! While you can certainly be a reference for her, it’s best to let the process happen naturally. Maybe give the hiring manager a heads-up, but that’s really all you should do, especially since you’re so new in your role.

    5. Cassie*

      I work at a public university. It’s usually the hiring manager (in the specific department) that handles hiring – central HR doesn’t. If you know the person in the department, it wouldn’t (shouldn’t) hurt to say “hey, I have a friend who is interested in the position. I think she would be great because of XYZ. She’ll be submitting her app but I just wanted to let you know”. Your contact might not be in a position to make a hiring decision, but maybe it would help your friend’s application get a couple more seconds glance than all the rest.

      I wouldn’t reach out to the hiring manager if you don’t already have some kind of connection with him or her.

      This is all assuming we are talking about normal (non-dysfunctional) people here who wouldn’t overreact to a little networking. You’re not asking for special treatment or anything, just giving a heads up.

  23. Bullwinkle*

    Is it worth it to receive a mileage reimbursement for using your personal car for work travel? I do a fair amount of driving to various project sites for work. I’ve generally had the mindset that I prefer to use the company vehicles and not put a bunch of miles on my own car, but now I’m wondering if that is reasonable. My company has several pickup trucks, but they’re not always available, and I don’t always need the hauling/towing capacity. We can also use rental cars, but that requires planning ahead and sometimes things come up suddenly, where it would be simpler to use my own car. Do you feel that the standard $0.54 reimbursement is an adequate trade off for the wear and tear on the car? My car is ~8 years old with pretty mediocre gas mileage, if that matters.

    1. Always Anon*

      The other component to consider is insurance. At my organization, using a company or rental vehicle means that the company’s insurance is in place for any accidents. If I use my personal vehicle, then my personal insurance would need to cover any accidents.

      1. SophieChotek*

        I agree, if you have the option I would. (I don’t drive a lot for work, but I don’t personally think the $0.54 is enough reimbursement, even if they also cover gas separately.) – also as above, if there is a policy for insurance if you are driving for work but in your personal car could make difference in how I would feel about scenario

      3. Asheley*

        I have a adder on my policy to cover business travel as I drive to job sites in my personal vehicle. It cost around $10. It might be worth considering adding while still prioritizing company vehicle options.

      4. PollyQ*

        On the subject of insurance, you might want to check how your policy handles work use of the car. It’s possible that the rate you’re paying is for personal use only.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I think the reimbursement rate is supposed to make up for the overall cost of using your personal vehicle, and it usually does. If you have a 10-year old Prius, your actual mileage cost might be less than someone with a brand new jacked-up pickup truck or SUV, but it’s not a big spread.

      To me, it would make more of a difference which vehicle was more convenient to me. For example, a commuter would obviously pick the company vehicle. Other than that, it would fall to suitability and comfort. Are you moving equipment? If so, which vehicle is easier to load and unload that equipment? Which is more comfortable to drive for you, personally? Those questions matter more than any cost equation, because I think the cost is negligible when you’re reimbursed at that rate.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      My car is older than yours and probably has worse gas mileage, but I still always choose to drive it rather than use a company car. I just don’t like the hassle associated with the company car (pick up, drop off, have to gas it up before you drop it off, none of the radio presets are on stations I like, feel compelled to drive below the speed limit, etc.) and I’m more comfortable driving a car I’m familiar with.

    4. Clever Name*

      How hard is it to submit reimbursement for mileage? I drive a 12 year old car, and often use it for work. It’s not a ton of effort to submit a reimbursement, so I normally do it if it’s more than 10 miles. I normally don’t submit a reimbursement when I buy ice (to keep samples cold) because that’s like 2 dollars, and it never seems worth the time it takes.

      1. Bullwinkle*

        Ha, yeah I feel you on the ice! I usually buy gas at the same time just so I can lump it all together on an expense report. Expense reimbursements luckily are easy and seem to be mostly on the honor system for mileage, though they might want more of a logging system if I was doing it a lot (which would be annoying, we have to do them for the work trucks).

    5. Not So NewReader*

      My husband used his own car for decades.
      My opinion is that it is not worth it.

      In his case the vehicle was so loaded with stuff that we could never use it. We’d take it on vacations because it was bigger than my car. It was probably three hours unloading it and that was with two of us working on it.
      So peach. We had this vehicle that was of little use to us and we had to house it, park it somewhere on our small lot. Then there was the maintenance and the repairs and yep, the insurance. Whatever work my husband did on it, he did on his own time because it was “his” vehicle. It was not undercover so it was one more vehicle to move while plowing.

      He was popping 500-700 miles per week on the odometer. We bought a new vehicle every few years.
      No. Not worth it.

    6. Jerry Vandesic*

      Not that it makes much of a difference, but the new reimbursement rate is $0.535 per mile in 2017.

  24. regina phalange*

    Hope this is appropriate for today (I think it is) – I have pretty significant (still) PTSD from getting fired from a job nearly four years ago. This week, I had a dream that I was still at my current job but had somehow been hired back by old job & COO who fired me. In my dream, I remember thinking, I need to post about this on AAM (hilarious AAM has now made it into my dreams). So I guess I have two questions: 1) anyone else have PTSD from an OldJob even though they are in a much better place now and 2) has anyone ever been given a second chance by the job they were let go from?

    1. Murphy*

      I wouldn’t say that I have PTSD, but I was fired almost 5 years ago, and it wrecked me (and my life) for a long time. Literally had a dream involving it LAST NIGHT.

    2. strawberries and raspberries*

      I was just promoted and moved to a new site, and the other night I had a dream that I thought an event we were having here the following day was happening at my old site, so I showed up there and realized my mistake, but not before all my old clients were like MS. STRAWBERRIES AND RASPBERRIES YOU’RE BACK I NEED YOUR HELP! I was so relieved to wake up.

    3. Bess*

      I still have legit PTSD from working just under an obvious, out of control (nonviolent) drug addict, where higher ups were well aware and actively ignoring it. Things like drug calls being made from work phones, seizures and vomit in cubicle, and total lack of work accountability. Tapped into a lot of issues around family addiction from when I was growing up and coworkers and I assumed similar roles to those messed up family dynamics. I’m getting stressed and sweaty just typing about it. That was the first job to teach me that you really can’t fix a dysfunctional place and sometimes you simply have to quit for your own sanity.

      More mildly, I still have some residual stress I’m releasing from my last job, which was an environment of truly impossible/neverending demand, lack of boundaries, constant interruption/no closed doors/sacred work time, staffing 16-hour events when sick, and zero expectation of work-life balance. I was a little weepy in the weeks I started my (fantastic) new job, as that pent up stress finally started to clear out.

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      I regularly have dreams where my brain resets to some point in the past and I completely forget that, say, my children exist. These almost always involve real estate and the need to move out of an apartment and I will discover, say, that there is a whole second apartment stuffed with furniture behind this door that I ALSO must now clear out, while I kick myself for failing to notice over the course of the lease that we had all this extra space.

      I bought my house 17 years ago. My children are taller than myself.

      1. PollyQ*

        I had that dream just the other night, only I was moving out of my college dorm room.

        I graduated in 1988.

    5. AndersonDarling*

      It took me a year to really recover from OldJob’s PTSD. But I went into a supportive organization that is filled with confident individuals. If I went to a so-so company where there was drama, I’m sure it would have taken longer to recover.

    7. AKJ*

      I still deal with anxiety from losing two jobs (one right after the other) in 2015 and one in 2012. I’ve been at my current job, which is wonderful, for over a year now, but the anxiety is still there.
      I don’t know if I’d call it PTSD exactly – but is there a word for something a few steps below PTSD? Post-Really-Sucky-Experience-Anxiety?

    8. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      I’m in a very good place in my career right now and feel like I’ve hit the jackpot with my current role – I’m being paid a bit above market rate, my bosses are all reasonable and there’s a solid HR department, my company gives really awesome perks and I like the work that I’m doing. Yet…

      I have nightmare every couple of months or so… From my time working as a server at a corporate chain restaurant 10 YEARS AGO. Never the exact same nightmare, but all follow a similar theme/pattern of being in the weeds and not being able to find the supplies I need.

      I also have some PTSD/very bad habits picked up from my first two “real” jobs – one a chaotic start-up that “laid me off” when I pointed out that they I was being incorrectly classified as an independent contractor and a second job with a tiny family-owned office that fired me on the spot when they found out that I was looking elsewhere (I graduated into the recession so it was a tough start). I’m working through these, but AAM has been a HUGE help in recalibrating my understanding of workplace norms.

    9. Lala*

      I still have nightmares from when I was a teacher, and I stopped teaching almost 5 years ago. Not fun.

      And while I wasn’t let go–my district wanted to move me from one school to another at the other end of the county, which would’ve increased my commute time by an hour (so I found another job in another district that was closer and better resourced)–the principal from my original school tried to get me to come back when they were finally given permission to keep my position at the school.

    10. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Yes, on both questions.

      1) I’ve been out of college for 20 years, but I still have dreams about my college jobs — on-campus food service & night custodial — where I am my current age (40s) but for some reason back at the college job. My in-dream frustration is so overwhelming that I’m back to a low paid, low status job that I wake up shaking. I wasn’t fired from those jobs and generally they were okay places to work, but life at that point in my life was extremely stressful trying to be a full-time student, part-time worker, figure out what I want to do with my life, learn to be independent, and have any sort of fun personal life. I have come to realize that whenever I feel overwhelmed, under-valued, and unstable in my current circumstances, my dreams replay the first time of my life I felt that way — college.

      2) I was fired and rehired within a month. The owner was a very emotional and reactionary person and he would let people go for the most innocuous reasons (like a typo) or if workload didn’t meet his unrealistic expectations (he once did a direct mail piece to try to increase business expecting [not kidding] an 80% response rate!!!! No direct mail campaign gets that…ever). While I was initially happy that I had my job back, for the next 3 years I was paranoid that it could happen again at any time. I’m never doing that again. Oddly, I don’t dream about that place at all.

    11. Lemon Zinger*

      Yes to your first question. I still get nervous when my boss texts/calls/emails/sets up a meeting specifically WITH ME and with no prior warning. Still working on getting over it! I’ve been here over a year, my boss is lovely, and there’s absolutely no reason for me to be afraid.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Yes to both your questions. IRL, I did not go back to old toxic job when the boss contacted me, though.

      I think it’s pretty normal to revisit old stuff, especially when we are in a better place. It’s safe to look at it again because we have moved on.

      It can also be a warning that we are currently in a bad place and ignoring the signs. Take a look at your current setting. Is there any warning flags that you have been ignoring? If all seems okay, then your mind is just probably reviewing old stuff because you are safe now.

      You can talk about the dream with other (well chosen) people. Sometimes if I talk about a dream during waking hours, I can shake it off entirely. You can also use affirmations, such as “This is not happening any more, this is over” to help calm your mind/emotions.

    13. JanetM*

      Many years ago, my division was subjected to a large and, in my opinion, exceedingly badly handled (but I’m not an HR person, so I could be wrong) layoff. I sincerely believe that many of those who survived developed what AKJ describes as “Post-Really-Sucky-Experience-Anxiety.” Some 15 years later, it was exacerbated, for many people, by our then CIO, who was, um, let’s say, “not an optimal fit for the job, and there was much rejoicing when he left.”

      For what it’s worth, although I had a considerable sense of survivor’s guilt at the time, I don’t seem to have developed the ongoing anxiety.

      I do still have school nightmares, usually that it’s finals week and I’ve just discovered a class on my schedule that I never attended and I can’t find my locker and I don’t have a number two pencil and …. I graduated in 1984.

    14. Life is Good*

      Fired? No. But, it might have been easier on me. I hung onto a job in a really crappy office for way too long. I occasionally get into a funk where I start to think about some of the sh*t that went on at my old dysfunctional company. While there, I started losing hair – lots of it – having heart palpitations and waking up at 1 or 2 in the morning and getting on the computer to get caught up on emails and the constant workload. I even had broken molars from clenching my teeth while sleeping. I had to have bite guards made because the dental bills for crowns were getting to be too much. I have found a much better (normal) office with a manager who deserves the title! My hair is growing back! And heart palpitations are non-existent. I sleep like a baby most nights. I try to be cognizant of my thoughts when they turn to the negativity I lived with for so many years and remind myself that I am out of that hellhole. That seems to help me reset my mind to think of the positive path I’m on now. I hope you can find peace in your own mind, regina phalange. Life’s too short to be miserable.

    15. Gadfly*

      My dreams like that are where mid-other-dream I realize I didn’t call out that day and should be at work (or school when I was younger) and I am way late and phones of course are not working and I have to go in and deal with the consequences.

      I don’t think I have PTSD from that (some other things, maybe), but I have been thoroughly trained in dysfunctional land and I am trying to work on that.

      I was briefly a cna at a community group home at 18 (I don’t even count it as a job anymore it was short and awful). They had me working up to 60hrs a week as a part time employee because they were always shorthanded. Well, one night I was called in to work a double shift because someone else called out. And in the middle of the night, one of the residents, non verbal, who was on new meds and responding badly to them, decided to go for a walk. Naked. And when I was trying to look for her and call a supervisor (my shift was alone), the other resident there at the time, also non-verbal, and who was upset about some personal things, decided she was going to walk down a busy street to Mcdonalds. And the supervisor wasn’t responding and I wasn’t supposed to call the cops, etc. I didn’t know what to do–leave, stay, get help from the technically seperate residence in the basement… By morning everyone was found and okay. And I got fired (it never was explained what I should have done.) And when they fired me I was told “If you reapply in three months, we’ll take you back, no problems.” I could have killed the hr person doing the firing for that. It was all, and they said as much, that they needed someone to be fired so it would show they took it seriously.

      So technically I guess I got a second chance, though I never used it.

    16. Jen*

      I wouldn’t call it PTSD, but I still feel my blood pressure rise and have definitely not gotten over being laid off 18 months ago. I had a 6 year stellar track record, several promotions. New leadership came in and replaced me (pregnant, female) with a buddy (male, white, 38). In order to get the (very very generous) severance, I had to transition my replacement.

      I’m in a much better place but still want to punch the guy that laid me off in the face. And I actively want to see him fail.

      Not bitter…

    17. many bells down*

      I occasionally have dreams that I’m back at my PA job. It wasn’t a terrible job, and I left on good terms, but for some reason I only seem to dream about that position. Usually the dream is that I’ve just forgotten that I still work there and I show up after … well it’s been 15 years, now, and try to get back into the swing of it.

    18. LoFlo*

      I am going into year three of leaving toxic job. I still reflect on what I could have done different, and if my work place was really that bad. After reading this web site, I think a lot of what went down was not acceptable, and I am glad I am gone. I am now self employed in a totally different field and city, and my business is doing well, and I am making friends.

    19. BeckyDaTechie*

      Yes. The position I was let go from in August (instead of leaving on my own once I found another position). I loved the work; the manager and I had very different working styles that led to resentment and mistrust.

      It was rough. I still have nightmares with her in them because I spent 18 months feeling like nothing was good enough and I had write ups sprung on me out of the blue, sometimes for very nebulous things that I couldn’t really understand well enough to take action on.

      They tell me it fades with time, and I’m freelancing right now, on top of substitute teaching, on top of opening my own business, so I’m excited to move forward, but the constant anxiety & nausea I felt always waiting for the other shoe to drop has *definitely* left its mark.

    20. theletter*

      About 8 years ago I was in a terrible job that was a very poor fit for me – sales with a lot of cold-calling (I’m very introverted). I was eventually let go (they called it a lay off to lesson the blow) but I still occasionally catch myself thinking about it, about the anxiety involved in that work, and how to try to manage it. When that company had openings again for that position I’d find myself imagining getting that new position – and I’m in a completely different industry and role now that pays better and fits my personality perfectly.

      In my job search after getting laid off, I came across a similar position but bombed the interview. My father told me afterwards not to worry about it – he said I had already held that position in my life and was ready to move onto the next step in my career.

  25. Not Karen*

    Our local freethought group is looking for speakers on scientific subjects. I work for a company that does scientific research. Would it appropriate to reach out to others at my company for anyone interested in speaking for the freethought group? It’s not paid but they will probably get a complementary dinner. I would make a non-invasive post on the internal forums.

    1. BenAdminGeek*

      I think posting on an internal forum is OK. It’s different than emailing specific people or cornering them in the break room. If you get interest, great. If not, then I’d move on.

    2. Gadfly*

      Is there anyone above you you can clear it with/get their feel for it? Is similar stuff ever posted?

  26. Lost*

    I need some reassurance and advice.

    I sort of fell into a career (fundraising) after doing a development internship in college. Fast forward four years and I’ve worked at two different, respected non-profits and I’m now a manager of an annual fund department.

    This is all well and good. However, as of late I’ve been having a very early mid-life crisis. I didn’t study fundraising in college and now I can’t believe I’ve been out in the workforce for four years. It freaks me out that time is moving so quickly and makes me afraid that if I don’t do what I want now, I never will. Granted, I don’t know what else I would do if I weren’t doing this. I just don’t know if I really like my job. I dread leaving home in the morning, and the day feels a bit like a battle.

    Long story short, I’ve been really struggling at work this week. I’m having trouble remaining motivated and I am not sure if I really “love” my job.

    Is there such a thing as a job that you love/makes you happy on a regular basis to come in to work in the morning? Should I try and figure out what other fields I could work in…or is this just real life/work is just work.

    1. RussianTea14*

      I know a lot of people who sort of fell into jobs after college. I think it happens because we have bills we need to pay and we just dont know how many different paths are available to us at the time.

      I am kind of in the same boat at my current company. I think you really need to step back ann ask yourself, “Is this type of work what I really what to be doing?” For me, the answer is “no,” so Im currently looking for another role within my company. Sure, I could keep doing what Im doing and Im not miserable YET, but I think its better to be proactive versus reactive.

      1. Lost*

        Thanks for sharing your experience. And, you’re right. I was offered this job, and I couldn’t turn it down and not make money. Plus, I didn’t have another alternative plan in mind at the time.

        I think I need to take a deep dive and figure out what I want and what my skills might translate to. There’s not really a direct equivalent to my role outside of the non-profit sector…but, I think I have strong skills that I could try and sell in other roles (i.e. marketing, project management, etc.).

        Good luck with your own journey!

    2. paul*

      falling into jobs seems fairly normal

      For me, I’m OK with a job that I dont’ actively hate that pays the bills. Occasional feelings of fufillment are a plus, but that’s what I get from my kids/family/pets/hobbies more than my job

    3. Hellanon*

      My perspective on this question is that you have to find what it is about the work that’s personally motivating *to you* – it may not be the obvious aspect (good work in a good cause, for example) but some other aspect of it (setting up a hot research dept, or figuring out how to meet your goals by motivating your staff) that you find really engaging. That is going to be the thread that runs through your career, and if you really step back and spend some time analyzing it/putting words to it, will be your answer to the questions you’ll get asked when you change jobs or fields or whatever. Me, I like figuring out how to make things work, so when I was in sales, I liked figuring out *how* to make the sale, when I was teaching I liked figuring out *how* to get the students to learn, now I like figuring out *how* to use my words to accomplish institutional goals – see, there’s the thread. And once you look at it in those terms, you’ll have a better sense of where you want to do what you are most interested in, and can make changes accordingly… good luck! And don’t be afraid to upend it all and do something new. Just be smart about where that new thing will take you.

      1. Lost*

        Thanks, I think this is great advice! I haven’t thought about it in these terms. I’ll do some thought about what aspect of my job engages me the most. Off the top of my head I love the strategy element — analyzing what was done before and researching options to create a plan for the future.

        I have to admit that starting new sounds exciting. But, you’re right. I need to do some thought first and be intentional about it. I think newness is part of the equation too…I like new projects, new people, new challenges. It’s sometimes hard to stay engaged after 2 years somewhere…but, maybe thinking about my work the way you do would help!

      2. Gina*

        I echo Hellanon’s comments. I, too, started my career in fundraising, mostly by accident. And while I loved a lot of aspects of the job, I didn’t love the job itself. I left my first job to go into another fundraising job — because what else would I do? (that’s what my brain told me) It was after a couple years at that job that I had to have a little heart to heart with myself to find out what I actually wanted to do. And I thought through which parts of my jobs I liked, and what career path would take me more in that direction. From fundraising, I went into marketing & communication for a nonprofit hospital, and now am in education marketing & event planning. And I LOVE where I’ve ended up. The positive part of starting in the fundraising realm, in my experience, is that you wear so many hats that you have a really solid baseline of ideas of what you do and don’t like. So use that baseline to brainstorm where you’d like to end up. Good luck!!!

    4. Stella'sMom*

      I agree with RussianTea14’s comments, and the same thing happened to me. I ended up changing careers after 10 years in the software industry, and now, after 8.5 years working internationally in non-profits, I am considering going back to grad school to refine my focus. And… to return to my first love, which is environmental work and science communications.

      I would suggest if you can, take a break (a few days off) and think about/do some creative “dream boarding” (using magazines, cut out images, glue on a white large paper…use markers, stickers etc, things you love… to create a dream board) and thinking about things you do like about your work, where you could go if you stayed there, where you could go if you left, and things that you enjoy doing. Then also try to identify things that stress you out or you don’t like to do. It may help you with clarity and give you a line of communication to your manager for clarity too, at your next 1:1 meeting (assuming you have those?)

      1. Lost*

        Thanks — it’s encouraging to hear that you’ve changed paths and are continuing to refine your goals. I’ve steadily progressed in this career path, and I think part of me was afraid that by doing so I was shutting the door to changing directions.

        I love the idea of a dream board. It seems like several comments have suggested that I need to take some time to do some soul searching — that seems like a great way to accomplish that.

    5. Bess*

      I experienced “early” crisis at around the exact same time, as did a lot of my friends…we kind of felt lost, had fallen into jobs, hadn’t all pursued what we’d studied.

      I personally ended up finding niche work at a series of jobs that developed into a pretty particular skill set that isn’t all that common. I just found work I liked and had an affinity for. But I would say, until the job I currently hold, which I adore…almost 10 years later…each job I had during that journey truly had some serious downsides to deal with.

      It just takes a lot of time to get good, get experience, and figure out what makes you happy at work. What you are describing sounds very, very normal.

      1. Lost*

        Thank you!! It is honestly very comforting to know that this is normal, and that over time you can find work that speaks to you (despite where you “fall”).

        It’s easy to see my peers and judge myself based on their careers/happiness/success, etc. and feel like I missed the boat. Thanks for the reassurance!

    6. DCGirl*

      I think I’ve posted about this before, but I worked in fund raising for the first half of my career, and it was largely because I worked in the development office for my work-study job. I was able to move into marketing and then into proposal management in the private sector, but the bedrock of that move was stellar writing skills. One of the things I did was to create a newsletter using a template from (oh, this dates me) Word Perfect to show off several different styles of writing: fund raising letter, grant application, newsletter article…. It really helped open doors for me.

      1. Lost*

        DCGirl–Thanks for sharing your experience. It’s helpful, because when considering non-development roles I’ve struggled to think about how my skills translate. I work on the individual side, so I haven’t done much with grants. However, I plan out and develop content for mass fundraising appeals, emails, social media, etc. – so, I think I could make a case for a marketing position.

    7. New Window*

      It freaks me out that time is moving so quickly and makes me afraid that if I don’t do what I want now, I never will.

      I have been in the workforce for about 12 years. Some jobs I had because I wanted them and went for them. Some jobs I fell into. Sometimes the things I wanted to do ended up being not all that great. Sometimes the jobs I fell into were wonderful even though I didn’t expect to like them. Right now, I am in the process of moving towards a career path that I could not have possibly imagined for myself were it not for a job that I fell into.

      Some parts of our stories are told for us, and other parts we get to tell ourselves. It’s not always clear which part is which until you look back on it years later. I have given up on trying to firmly plan what exact course my life will take. I’ll set a rough outline and work for it and see what happens. Besides, what 25-year old me wanted is bound to be different than what 45-year old me will want, so I may as well build in buffer for that.

      I just don’t know if I really like my job. I dread leaving home in the morning, and the day feels a bit like a battle.

      If that goes on for more than a week, I’d say that dreading leaving home in the morning is a pretty good indication of how you feel about your job, even if your conscious brain would rather not acknowledge it.

    8. Lala*

      I fell into a job, did it for 4 years and was so bored, and got a master’s for what I decided I *wanted* my career to be(teaching), and after a few years of teaching, realized that while there were parts of teaching I adored even more than I thought I would, they weren’t enough to make up for all the parts of the job that I hated. Thankfully, I was able to find a job doing something similar to what I’d fallen into originally, and which I really love doing. It took getting away from it to make me appreciate how good a fit it was for me (plus the new job involves materials that are much more interesting). Overall I’m glad I went through the rigamarole of trying something completely different…even if I’m still paying student loans.

      YMMV, but if you’re feeling unhappy, it probably won’t hurt to try and find something different. My point, I guess, is even if the new, different thing you try doesn’t work out, it’s still worth trying if you feel dissatisfied where you are.

    9. Lemon Zinger*

      I love my job and feel good about coming in most days. It’s an incredibly rewarding field and I’m genuinely passionate about what I do. I know that not everyone in my office feels this way, especially those of us who are recent grads.

      You’re just having a weird week! I wouldn’t let it get to you so much that you totally question everything about your career. But it’s also natural to fall into something post-college, do it for a while, and then want to move on to greener pastures.

      I guess what I’m trying to say is… don’t stress. :) If you find something non-fundraising that sounds good, you should certainly think about going for it!

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Don’t freak out. We are supposed to question ourselves and question where we are going in life. This is normal and healthy, no need to freak out. In an odd way, it’s a survival mechanism. Am I on the right track? Is this where I should go? These are good questions and normal questions. Always do these self-checks.

      Just because you are good at something does not mean you have to do it. Confusingly, just because you LOVE something that does not necessarily mean it is THE job for you.

      Stick with your natural abilities and think about different settings where those abilities would be used. Talk with people who know you well and who you trust, ask them what they think you are good at. This is fun, because they will tell you stuff you never thought of before. We tend to take our natural inclinations for granted.

      Last, do yourself a big favor. Let go of the idea of loving your job. Anything we do on a routine basis becomes WORK. Meaning it is an effort we put out each day. If you can find ways to use your job to enrich other people’s lives you have done well. If you can sleep good at night and you can keep the bills paid you are doing well. Likewise if you don’t mind going into work most days, again, you are doing pretty darn good.

      So. You are in a good spot because you are employed with a stable income. This means you can look around and see what your next gig might be. Don’t think on this too hard or too long. Give yourself a time frame, “I am going to think on this and research for x months, then I will make a decision.” Remember we are all making our best guess, so go ahead and make your best guess. A good guess makes us think, “Well I am pretty sure I can do this New Thing. I will need to work at it but I will get it.”

  27. RussianTea14*

    How do you know if you are ready to move on to the next level at your company?

    Im currently a Teapot Maker who wants to be a Senior Teapot Maker. In the last six months, I have been given several stretch projects and have succeeded. In the last couple of meetings with my boss, I mentioned I would like to be working towards a Senior role this year. She has said my work is to that level.

    However, I recently found out that I am the only person on our team who hasnt received the annual cost of living increase this year, despite glowing reviews and praise from the areas I work with. This is disheartening.

    An internal Senior position was recently posted and I was strongly encouraged to apply for it by my former Grandboss. I would report to Grand boss in this new role. I am planning to apply but I have to discuss it with my current boss because that is how our company handles internal job moves.

    1. NW Mossy*

      You’ll never be 100% certain, but it sounds like you have very favorable conditions in place to apply for it. If you’ve been touched on the shoulder by the hiring manager about it, that’s about as clear a signal as you’re going to get that they think you’re a strong candidate. Go for it!

      As a sidebar, the same thing just happened to me – former boss encouraged me to apply for a role in her area, and long story short, I start over there in 3 weeks.

    2. BenAdminGeek*

      You sound ready, you have an ally in the new role, this seems perfect. The stars align in your favor!

    3. Dizzy Steinway*

      Is there any chance the lack of COL is a mistake on their part? That doesn’t seem like something that people should miss out on.

    4. Not just true for small companies...*

      Have you asked for a raise? Definitely build your case! Don’t wait for it to just happen! And go for it! Good luck :-)

      1. Lisa*

        Is it possible that they didn’t give you the COL because they’re intending to give you the promotion?

        When you talk to your boss, lead into it with “Grandboss has asked me to apply to such and such position” They’ll have a harder time saying no if they know they’ll need to explain themselves to their own boss why they prevented the move.

  28. Bureaucrat with a Side of Coffee*

    I have recently become intern coordinator for my office. If all goes will, we will have 2-3 interns join us for their summer break. Our office is notoriously bad when it comes to proper onboarding. I am thinking back to my experiences as an intern and what made me feel welcome and prepared to do my job, but I’d like to hear what you have to say as well.

    So far, I have a document outlining their first week with all of the admin tasks they need to complete to get set up that I will go over with them and SOPs for the projects they will be working on. They will also get a file breaking down each task our team works on, who is responsible, and who serves as back up.

    I’m thinking about an brief “get to know you” survey to send to them ahead of time as well. I could use the responses to make sure what I am assigning is as in line with their goals for the internship as it can be given what the office needs to be completed by interns. I could also request a photo/brief bio to post in the office prior to their arrival so people will know who they are. Has anyone done this? What are good questions? What can I best do to support interns before, during, and after their time here based on your own internships experiences?

    Thanks in advance for any input you have!

    1. Letters*

      Oh wow, this sounds fantastic! The ONLY thing that I would include, and it’s pretty small, is that one of the things I would look to the survey to answer is what their interests in the internship are exactly. Using that information, schedule sit-downs with various team members just so they can talk to the individuals whose roles they are most interested in and learn the ins and outs of not just the position, but how they will be working together for this particular project they’ve been assigned.

      I would also go ahead and schedule any followups now, just to get them on the calendar and to set the expectation (both with your team and the intern) that there will BE followups.

    2. Cranberry*

      I like the idea of a little bio. Cheesy as they sound to full-time employees, I did enjoy the social events organized with the other interns – it’s a good way to break the ice.

      I really enjoyed shadowing people from other job functions during my internships – I learned so much from random one-off projects and meetings that I went to for people outside of my department. Not sure whether you would want to formalize that, but definitely encourage interns to try out/experience different areas and tasks, and try to facilitate that.

      Try to figure out what the unwritten office norms are, and…write them down! I was very grateful for people who told me “On Fridays, we go to this place for lunch”, “Jeans and tshirts are okay”,”Here’s the supply closet- make sure you grab a notebook, and keep it with you all the time”,”The dishes in the kitchen aren’t really communal- people bring their own to use”.

      If you have an office directory with pictures, share it! This was the easiest way for me to remember and learn who was who.

    3. Bex*

      It’s awesome that you are putting so much thought into this! I think the documents and files sound great. I would also pull a selection of reading materials about the company, specific interesting projects, etc since they will likely have some down time the first few days. And photos/bios are great. My company send them out the day the interns start, and it really helps break the ice and get the staff to interact with the interns.

      Instead of a survey, maybe consider a 15-20 minute phone call? You could essentially cover the same info, but you’d have the opportunity to ask additional clarifying questions and get better feedback. It also feels may more personal that a survey.

    4. Kowalski! Options!*

      I like the idea of the photo and brief bio. If you want them to get comfortable with the people they’re working with too (and your employees have time for it…), I had an internship yeeeeaaaars ago at a theatre that used to take a lot of interns in, but which had its operations split in three different locations. The Managing Director of the theatre company used to tell the interns on their first day that the theatre needed updated bios of all the staff, and would the intern mind going to all the staff members, do a mini-interview about their jobs, work experience, etc., and take the staff members’ photos with a disposable camera? (Shows you how long ago THAT was!!) It was a great chance to meet everyone in a laid-back manner and get the interns to see the various operations centers of the theatre.

    5. Mouse*

      My favorite thing about where I’m interning now is that there’s a map on the company’s wiki that shows where everyone’s desk is! It’s so nice to know I don’t have to cluelessly wander around or ask for directions two months into the internship because I have to go talk to someone new.

    6. zora*

      all the suggestions above sound great. One thing they do at my current workplace that i think is good, is formalize feedback for the interns after they finish projects. So, either over the phone or by email, the people who had an intern working on their project give the intern coordinator the topline positive and negative feedback on the intern’s work. Then the coordinators regularly meet with the interns, ask them how they are doing, and give them the feedback they’ve gotten. Sometimes the coordinators have to force people to take a minute to give feedback, bc everyone is so busy, but they can’t get better without feedback!

  29. Larina*

    Is it strange that I’m uncomfortable with my parents wanting to come by my office?

    My parents are coming into town, and my mother (who for clarification has been somewhat helicopter-mom-ish) wanted to stop by my office, take a look around, and possible meet some of my coworkers. The very idea of my mother meeting my boss is a nightmare for me, and I’ve just said I’m too busy to show her around. I feel like stopping by for a few minutes before going out to lunch would be one thing, but she wants a grand tour and to meet my coworkers. I think part of my hesitation is that I’m in my early twenties and was recently given a low level management position, and I don’t want to look childish or inexperienced to those both below and above me.

    I’m not out of the norm, am I?

    1. Dankar*

      I don’t think so. I brought my mother in to see my office (she was definitely not a helicopter mom, to be clear), but I waited until after hours to show her the building and campus.

      I love my coworkers, but didn’t think it would be appropriate for mom to do a meet-and-greet with my boss, whose office is right across from mine. I think what you’re feeling is very much the norm.

    2. ThatGirl*

      No, that seems a little odd to me… and I say that as someone whose parents wanted to see where I worked at my first job out of college. At the time I didn’t think much of it but I’d never take my mom by work now.

      Just say “mom, visitors are not really a thing at my office, I’d rather not”.

    3. Bureaucrat with a Side of Coffee*

      If she is already helicopter-mom-ish, I’d use this as an opportunity to set a boundary and stick to it. Don’t let her into this part of your life unless you’re enthusiastic to do so. Honestly, I’d find it odd if I met a coworker’s immediately family member outside of crossing their path as they both head out for a lunch together while they’re in town or at a company function open to family members.

      1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

        This.

        Those who haven’t experienced helicopter moms don’t quite understand how invasive it can get pretty quickly. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out she has snagged business cards while touring the office and the next time you make a casual statement about something at work, she would email someone. I’ve seen it happen!

        Setting boundaries will be very important. I’d tell her you have meetings up until lunch but can spare a few minutes to show her your space before heading out to eat, then use the meeting excuse to cut short any after-lunch tour.

      2. Lemon Zinger*

        So much this.

        When I started my current job, my parents came to town and wanted to see my workplace (I work at a university). I walked them around campus, after business hours, and didn’t go very close to my actual building so as to avoid running into anyone. Fortunately they never asked to see my office, but I wouldn’t have been able to show them anyway because it’s secure and only accessible to staff.

        It’s unprofessional to bring parents into work, especially if you’re young and working to establish a professional reputation. I’d be mortified if my parents ever met my boss or colleagues!

    4. Hellanon*

      Eh, just handle it like you were taking a three-year old around. Your coworkers will be polite and say nice things about you, anything she says that’s embarassing can be hand-waved away later, and if you plan it so that you have lunch reservations that you have to leave for, you’ll have an easy out if she starts trying to show them pictures. Everybody has cringeworthy relatives (or knows someone who does) and meanwhile, having your boss & coworkers see you being gracious and respectful to your mother is not at all a bad thing.

      1. Sadsack*

        Sorry, I disagree. This seems like a great time to say no and enforce boundaries with an overbearing parent. There’s just no reason for this except to satisfy Mom’s curiosity.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          Agreed, particularly if she’s the “call your boss” type. A helicopter parent should know as little about your work as humanly possible.

    5. Temperance*

      Nope, your mother is, though. You’re a young woman in management, and you don’t want to seem childish. Bringing your mom to work could be seen as childish.

    6. Bex*

      I don’t think your being unreasonable at all. I can’t actually think of a time when a coworker’s parents came to the office and got a tour. Every once in a while a spouse stops by, but that’s usually for a specific purpose like lunch or to show off a new baby.

      In your position, I would probably tell my mom that the office culture didn’t really encourage personal visitors, and that with the new management job I didn’t want to distract anyone during the workday.

    7. Emi.*

      No, you’re fine. I would also feel weird about this, and my parents are super not-helicopter-y. You’re totally justified in enacting a no-fly zone, and your concerns about looking childish are normal too.

      1. Asheley*

        My mom was the same way and it is super odd. If you want to do anything suggest having her pick you up for lunch. It keeps it less awkward. This will not work though if she will insist on meeting your boss because it is just awkward no matter how nice your boss is.

    8. Jaydee*

      There are two ways I can see it being appropriate for parents to visit the workplace of their adult child. One is outside of regular business hours. I took my parents on a tour of my office on a Saturday once when they came to town. There were maybe 2 or 3 people in the office that day, so it wasn’t disruptive at all but they got to see where I worked. The other is the quick (5-10 minute) tour before leaving for lunch – showing them your personal work space and introducing them to a couple of your co-workers. But this one only works if your parents are cool and are simply going to exchange polite pleasantries with the people they meet. If they are going to be weird and helicopter-y and overbearing, then an after-hours tour or a simple “sorry, Mom, parents visiting is just not a thing at my office” probably works better.

    9. YpsiAlton*

      I will back up the other responses–I don’t think that’s strange at all to be uncomfortable with her request.

      Do your co-workers ever take their parents around the office for a tour or a meet-‘n’-greet? I’m guessing no–it’s certainly not something that happened in any office I ever worked in. If I were you, I would feel pretty comfortable in telling her “no” on this.

    10. Partly Cloudy*

      I hear you!

      Where I work, people do give visiting relatives tours and introduce them around so culturally, it’s not weird. But for me it totally would be; I can be socially awkward and my mom is x10,000.

      My workplace is open to the public, to an extent, meaning we have a lobby and you can walk in off the street. Last time my mom was in town, she CAME IN AND SAT IN THE LOBBY for awhile (I don’t know how long) and then left. She told me that evening over dinner and said she knew I’d never invite her and not to worry, she didn’t tell anyone she was my mom. So I’m sure the reception staff just thought she was a crazy lady who sat in the lobby for no reason (obviously she didn’t have a business reason to be there). I kept an ear out for awhile to see if I’d hear anything about her but I never did.

    11. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      I brought my dad to work to meet my coworkers and boss because I live hours away from where I grew up and he’s never seen my work. I don’t think it was such a big deal and my dad is a giant child so I think everyone enjoyed meeting him and getting to mess with me a bit.

    12. Bonky*

      “Mom, I’d love to, but it’s really outside professional norms for our office; it’d be seen as really inappropriate for someone to invite their family into the building. Let’s go get coffee instead.”

    13. Hilorious*

      My mom always suggests this! I just tell her that because I work with government contracts, she won’t be allowed in for security reasons.

    14. DG*

      Oh wow. I feel like I’m the only one who had a horrified reaction to this. PLEASE DON’T DO THIS!

      It’s weird and it will come across weird. There is NO reason for your mother to meet your co-workers. None.

      I would be crazy judgmental if my co-workers did this. Please don’t.

    15. Sadsack*

      Holy cow, no, you are not out of the norm. No way I would have my parents to the office. No way, no how. There’s no reason for it. I agree with your concern that it will look strange to your coworkers and managers. In my 25 years of working, I don’t think I have ever seen anyone’s parents come into the workplace, except maybe in a store setting and the worker was a teenager. Keep up the story that you just don’t have time. I hope your parents are not the types to just show up anyway. Maybe it would be best to be honest and tell them that it just isn’t appropriate, in case they get any ideas to just show up.

    16. Doodle*

      No, you are SO not out of the norm.

      I’ll fess up here — I did this (helicopter-y parents, visit from mom, etc.) I even let my mom come to a work event (it was open to the public and she was volunteering). It was… weird. Without going into too much detail, I really regret letting her come. It was awkward AND it meant that she felt more empowered to subtly second-guess me in the future, “Oh, you’re having trouble with [co-worker]? But she was so nice when we talked about basket-weaving blah blah blah…”

      So, I understand why you feel weird about it. I so wish I’d listened to my weird feelings. Nothing disastrous happened, but when I think back on it (and how it must have looked to my colleagues), I blush. It definitely made me look younger and less professional than I would have liked.

    17. Elisabeth*

      It’s not intrinsically bad, but I think you’re smart to say “no” due to the combination of factors:

      – Your youth
      – Your position
      – The fact that your mom is a bit helicopter-y

    18. Key to the West*

      This would be really weird in my office (and those of my friends).

      Seeing where you work is maybe ok but meeting your colleagues and boss is definitely a massive no from me!

    19. Agile Phalanges*

      *I* wouldn’t feel weird about it, but then the workplaces I’ve had have been inviting of that sort of thing, the culture welcoming of it (other employees brought friends or relatives in), and my parents aren’t helicopter-y.

      They haven’t visited ALL my workplaces, but for example, my dad’s a private pilot and flew my son down after a visit during daylight hours that also happened to be working hours. The airport is right next to my work, so with my boss’ prior approval, I picked them up from the airport, took them to lunch nearby, then brought them back to work for a tour of how things work (manufacturing environment, so more interesting for visitors than your standard white-collar office). Took my dad back to the airport, and my teenage son hung out in the office the rest of the workday. All pre-approved, and not looked askance at.

      At my last company, my growing-up family members nearly all came to visit (at separate times), and while I didn’t really give them a tour, since it’s just an office, they got to meet the boss and my immediate co-workers. I know for me, I like meeting family or friends’ co-workers, or at least seeing where they work (when it’s possible, no biggie if it’s not) so I can picture it/them in my head when they talk about them. But then, I’m normal, and so are my family.

      Which is what this all comes down to. For people whose family earn the privilege and whose workplace rules/culture allow, it’s totally normal to have a quick visit. For situations where those factors don’t all align, it’s totally normally to not have family members visit. So it’s your call to make, based on your family and work culture, and it sounds like you’ve made that call, and therefore you’re totally normal. :-)

    20. zora*

      No, I agree that feels weird. My parents have visited me in my town many times, and when I’ve worked in an office I have NEVER brought them to my work to see it. The only times I did that were when I worked in retail (and they came and bought a lot of stuff) and when I worked in my student center in college. In most offices, I think having a friend or spouse drop by before going out to lunch is fine, but having parents come by would be weird.

      I tell my parents about work, and maybe point out the building if we are passing nearby, but I wouldn’t bring them into my office.

    21. Not So NewReader*

      I would be okay with my father stopping by my work place. He did many times. He knew to keep the visits very short and he knew if I was talking to someone that he had to wait. He was a very cool parent in this regard. My cohorts always commented on how they liked my dad.

      If I had a parent like yours (helicopter-y) there is no way on this green earth. I think it’s the recipe for problems: take my work place and add one parent then watch my life fall apart.
      Just no.

    22. It happens*

      You are correct, no helicopter mom visit; the internet gives you permission to say no.

      May be interesting to hear about a few places where it’s encouraged – as call centers became popular in India, the companies would invite parents to tour and visit the companies as part of the interview process to help parents feel comfortable with ‘allowing’ their daughters to work there. Also, companies like google and Facebook have had family days so parents can see where their children spend all their time.

    23. joe*

      tell your parrents no. Make up some excuses related to company policies that they have no way of checking, Claim security requirements or something along those lines

    24. Artemesia*

      I felt the same way and my mother was not as intrusive as it sounds like your mother is. I think it looks a little childish to be a young worker and showing parents around the office. It sounds like you are also guarding a piece of your soul here from having your parents in every nook and cranny of your being. “Mom, it really isn’t done at my office and I would look childish if I brought Mommy and Daddy to the office. I just got promoted and I don’t want to look bad and have it hurt my reputation.” Then don’t discuss it further.

      FWIW both of my adult children have shown me around their workplaces, but if they had not offered, I would certainly not have done it, and they are somewhat better established at this point than you are starting out.

      but it is perfectly okay to not want this line crossed and rely on norms of your workplace; no one else’s mommy and daddy have toured the office is a clue to you and a good thing to say to the folks when you don’t want this boundary crossed.

  30. Turanga Leela*

    Here’s a dilemma that I wanted to get people’s opinions about. You’re looking for a new job, but it’s the busy season at your current job (think of tax prep time or the lead-up to a big event). You can schedule time off for a doctor’s appointment or similar, but the expectation is that you will cancel it if a client issue comes up at the last minute. An employer contacts you to schedule an interview. Which is the better way to handle it?
    1) Schedule the interview for the least busy day possible, then call out sick that morning.
    2) Schedule the interview and tell your boss that you have an appointment coming up that you must go to, and it’s time-sensitive and you cannot reschedule, but you don’t want to talk about it beyond that.

    1. Nervous in CA*

      I have been in the same position! I think when they ask for details I add that it is a “specialist” doctors appointment and that they are hard to schedule for and there was an opening (if they ask for the “last minute” aspect of it) so you wanted to take it. I feel like in general my manager understand by that that I am seeing my OBGYN and I let him run with that assumption.

    2. Temperance*

      I would schedule the interview for the earliest time possible, so that way they can’t try and talk you out of going.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        That’s what I do. 9am interview so I can get up as early as I need to prepare. And I tell my boss that I have an appointment and I’ll be in as soon as I can.

    3. J. F.*

      I like option 2 better, because it’s the truth – you DO have a time-sensitive appointment you can’t reschedule. If the boss *assumes* it’s a medical appointment, that’s fine, but you didn’t lie. If your workplace is totally unaccommodating of people having outside lives and appointments, then yeah, I’d lie about being sick or whatever I needed to do.

      1. Turanga Leela*

        Yeah, my hesitation about #2 is that I can’t say it without it sounding like I’m having either a biopsy or an abortion. Either way, it winds up feeling like a bigger lie than just saying that I’m sick.

        1. JustaTech*

          “It’s time sensitive but not serious, so don’t worry.” You could be having an eye exam or having a mole checked or seeing a bank about a mortgage, or seeing a lawyer about a will or an inheritance or your accountant.
          Remembering that there are other things it could be might make you more confident.

          1. Turanga Leela*

            I think this would be easier if I worked in a different office. My workplace culture is very open about these things, so the message “I can’t miss or reschedule this, but I don’t want to talk about it” would make my boss worried about me. If I then said it wasn’t serious, he would think that I wasn’t taking busy season seriously. (The expectation around here is very much that eye exams, wills, accountants, etc. can be pushed off until after crunch time.)

            But in another context or office, I would completely agree.

    4. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      I would go with the second option. I have a lot of health problems and it takes at least three months to get in to see a specialist, so even if the sky was falling there’s no way I’d cancel. You could mention something like that.

    5. PollyQ*

      3) Tell your interviewer that it’s your office’s busy time, and ask for an interview slightly outside normal business hours, e.g., 7:30am, 6pm.

      1. Turanga Leela*

        That would usually be the perfect solution, but during this busy period, work routinely starts early and ends late, and the days and times aren’t always predictable—it’s not unusual to find out at 3 that everyone is staying until 8. Weekends aren’t safe either.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      4) Schedule the interview for as close to first thing in the morning as possible. On the day of, call the boss, tell her you have a flat tire/dead battery/computer failure in your car and you will be late but you are not sure how late. You will try to get there as soon as possible.

    7. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

      I had this very scenario come up in the past few weeks with the hiring process at my New job. It’s the peak audit season at OldJob, and it was very uncomfortable to need time off for interviews because it’s frowned upon to take time off during audit season. I just kept reminding myself that my career and my life won’t stop for audit season, and so I can’t worry about the perception of taking time off if it means that not taking time off would jeopardize potentially life-changing opportunities.

      1. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

        I phrased the first interview as a private appointment, but ended up being transparent about the 2nd interview because I had another initial interview the same day, and 2 “private appointments” on the same day felt too shady, for me personally. I know if I were my boss and I was told someone had 2 appointments after having an appointment the previous week, I’d be like, yeah, what’s up, are you interviewing.

        I would recommend the car trouble idea, but the last time I did that karma got me and I ended up really actually having car trouble like a week later.

  31. Nervous in CA*

    I have a job interview this afternoon!! what is the best way to approach the subject of company culture and get an idea of the hours? My current job is quite dysfunctional, and I feel very lonely in my position because Management is located in another state so I spend a lot of time chasing them by phone or email for decisions. It is very disheartening and I was hoping to move to a job where work would be more “collaborative”.
    I also want to get a sense of how many hours I would be working (i.e. 40 a week or more like 70?)
    If that helps, the meeting is with board members and it is my 3rd interview for the position. Pay hasn’t really been discussed yet.

    1. NaoNao*

      I’d be relatively straightfoward:

      “Can you tell me a little about the level of everyday collaboration, such as in person team meetings, group messenger rooms/functions, or just casual chatting, that goes on here? Will my immediate team and supervisor be on-site?”

      “Can you give me an idea of the expected work hours here? What is a typical work week like in terms of scheduling?”

      Perhaps before the 3rd interview you can reach out to the hiring manager and say something like

      “I’m very interested in this post, but before we continue the conversation, I want to make sure we’re on the same page about compensation. I want to respect everyone’s time and efforts here before going any further.”

    2. AndersonDarling*

      As far as what hours people work…I’ve been very straightforward and ask my interviewers what hours they work and if they get to use all their vacation. There can be a tendency to fudge about the workload and how many hours hypothetical workers work in a day, but I think people are caught off guard if you ask how many hours they personally work.

    3. Dizzy Steinway*

      In the interview for my current job, I asked something along the lines of: how does the team communicate in general and how do you organise and communicate about specific projects?

      I learned a lot from the answer- it gave me a good feel for the general vibe as well.

  32. Leelee*

    I need some good vibes and general support, please.
    I’m currently four years into my first professional role. My amazing boss left 18 months ago and I was given all of her responsibilities. I have been running myself into the ground doing two full time jobs. My current boss, who is an owner of the company, is nice enough but tells me that she can’t afford to give me a pay rise or give me any support staff because the company doesn’t have enough money. I’m underpaid by about £10k for my original role, let alone the other responsibilities which is about double, and I’m owed quite a bit of money for training that I was supposed to be reimbursed for. This has been going on for the past year, so it’s not a sudden dip in finances. I’ve committed to start actively looking for another job, but I am dreading ever telling my boss I’m leaving. I’ve ended up with about 3 core functions of the business (like payroll) with no-one else having any idea how they work. I don’t think she knows I’m only contractually bound to a months’ notice and it took five months to do the handover between me and OldBoss. There will not be enough time for me to recruit, hire and train someone new to do my job in a month, but I don’t think I have a mental space to give any more than that.

    I’ve been wanting to leave for about a year, but we lurch from one fire to the next, and my boss begs me to never leave her. She cries to me sometimes and says she won’t be able to cope if I ever go. But I think “then pay me what I’m worth!” I’m finding it hard to tell if my fear of quitting is because it’ll be the first professional job I’ve left, or if it’s because I’ve been told so many times that she can’t cope if I do.

    Does anyone have any tips for how to get through the next few months, while I wrestle with guilt, frustration and anxiety?

    1. paul*

      Tell yourself it’s your bosses fault and she’s done it to herself. Tell yourself that as often as it takes. I may not be the best person to ask because I can’t fathom feeling guilty about this sort of thing, but that’s just my thought.

      Frustration may be lessened with a hard end date.

    2. SophieChotek*

      If you were already underpaid, it’s time to find a new job. Your boss is doing this to herself, by claiming she cannot afford to pay you more. (Obviously if OldBoss left, that freed up some money.) You need to think long-term for yourself.

      Hang in there and i hope you find a new job soon. (And prepare what you can to ease transition, but stick to your contract months’ notice, or it sounds like OldBoss will ask you to stay forever and will be calling after you leave anyway.)

      I can understand your potential guilt (for your future departure?) but you also need to do what is right for her, even if it is sounds that (like me) you might be bit of a people-pleaser (?)…

    3. Betty*

      If your boss truly valued you, she would pay you appropriately.

      Right now she is getting 2 jobs for the low, low price of 1. That tells me she doesn’t really care about you , only her needs.

      Find a new job, don’t feel bad about it & move on with your life.

    4. J. F.*

      If it would allay your guilt: document your job functions (if you have time!) and make a binder of each one. Then the next person will have the information they need to figure it out.

      Good luck finding another position!

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        +1 on this, if you have time.

        This hits so many themes of the new-to-work thread, especially feeling like you can’t abandon your poor downtrodden job when the job doesn’t feel that way about you. Crying manager aside–if they wanted to keep you, then they could have given you your boss’s old salary and used your old salary to hire an assistant for you.

        Don’t get dragged under by the sunk costs fallacy, where the only way to get paid the money you’re owed for training is to stick around some more again.

    5. 2horseygirls*

      It sounds like you do not have a spare minute now, but for functions that only you know how to do, you need to create an operations manual ASAP that someone can pick up and figure out what to do fairly quickly from.

      Boss is a functional adult, and survived before you came along; she will rally and hire someone to replace you. Yes, it will suck; yes, she has come to depend on you, and has become fond of you. Yes, the morning after you leave, the sun will still rise, and the earth will continue to revolve.

      I am in a similar position (that I will post about separately below), and the advice above is a very new feeling for me. My last position was miserable for 18 months, ended badly, and basically killed any possibility of becoming emotionally attached to a company or position ever again, which is 180 degrees NOT ME AT ALL. So forgive me if the advice seems a bit . . . . abrupt or callous.

      1. Gadfly*

        And if the company was so dependent on you it does actually fail if you leave, it was in really bad shape even with you there.

    6. E*

      I’ve heard it said that bosses with employees in such key roles should plan for “hit by a bus” scenarios. If something happened where you suddenly weren’t able to be at the office or train someone, they’d struggle but your tasks such as payroll would get done somehow. This responsibility is not on you beyond the month of training/handover that you offer. 18 months of overworked and underpaid, this is all on the business that didn’t provide you the support you need.

      1.  LeeLee*

        Thank you all very much for your responses! It’s really helpful just to have a bit of a shoulder shake, because I’ve been dug down in a mess of crazy for so long that I’ve started to see it as normal, or at least think that some really screwed up things just can’t be avoided (which they can, by leaving).

        SophieChotek above rightly pegged me as a people-pleaser. I have become so much better at boundaries and delegating than I was when I was fresh out of university and just grateful for a job – but I know I still have a ways to go. I have created ‘how to’ guides for most of my functions as I’ve gone along, but I get waves of panic about all the little things that wind up in my orbit that I might not have done them for. So I’ll take a deep breath and remember I have done the best I can to help someone take over, and the other stuff will work itself out. I am a very good employee, but I am not magic – another capable adult will be perfectly able to pick up and do my job.

        Which is also what I might say to my boss when she starts to guilt trip. OldBoss was in the role for 15 years, and I managed to make it work when she left, so someone else will be able to take over from me.

        1. SophieChotek*

          Sounds like you have a great start with your “how to” guides. There’s no way (at least unlikely) that you can remember and predict every scenario — but the fact you’ve started, etc. means you are ahead of the game (even if you weren’t planning on leaving). I hope you find a new job soon and you can put in your notice. And don’t let your boss try to guilt you into staying longer or suddenly finding that money, etc. — you sound like a very good employee, very conscientious, and another company will be lucky to have you and your skill set.

      2. JanetM*

        I tell people that the reason my job is documented so thoroughly is that I am walking proof anyone can be hit by a truck. When I got back to work — I was out for about four weeks, and only able to work part-time for another two — I started making notes on everything I could think of.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Hmm.

      Boss still owes you tuition reimbursement. She’s not worried.
      Boss owes you a pay raise and back pay. She’s not worried.
      With your stress level you could end up in the hospital. She’s not worried.
      You need help with your work. She’s not worried.

      She begs you to not to leave but does nothing to inspire you to stay. How worried can she actually be? This sounds like all talk and no action.

      Live your life, do what you have to do to take care of you. Keep in mind that this is a very lopsided relationship. She takes, you give. You can have better than this and you deserve better than this.

    8. Artemesia*

      Just know that if it were in HER interest to fire you she would in a heartbeat. You owe no loyalty to a boss, particularly one who underpays you, beyond doing good work while you are there and giving appropriate notice when you leave. It is business. It isn’t personal and her attempts to guilt you into giving her loyalty and work for less than your counterparts make is manipulative. Look for a job on your own timeline and when you land one give her two weeks notice (or what the norm is in your country) and indicate you will use those two weeks to help her document your work to ease the transition for the new person she will hire. If she can’t hire someone as good as you to do the work for what she can pay? Well then she doesn’t have a viable business. Do what is in your interests, don’t give whiny guilt tripping a second thought.

  33. Mike C.*

    A small rant:

    If you invite me to several hours of meetings that I have no part in – nothing to present and nothing being presented has anything to do with what I’m working on – don’t be so “offended” that I’m on my phone reading the news. You decided for me that it was more important that I sit in a room silently with nothing to do for hours, so what did you actually expect?

    From now on, no agenda and no stated reason for being in the room, I’m not accepting or I’m just walking out. Quit wasting my time because you think I make a great security blanket. Let me know when you actually need something.

    /Just needed to get that off my chest.

    1. Kinsley M.*

      Ehh, I can see why they got offended. If you’re going to be in the meeting then it is rather rude to be on your phone. I think a better approach would have just been to say that you were busy and couldn’t attend/had to leave.

      2. Mike C.*

        Why is it rude to begin with?

        They clearly didn’t need me and they were discussing nothing that pertained to me and I was distracting no one. They literally just decided that it was worth it to them that I waste several hours of my day for no foreseeable reason, and I’m the rude one?

        I mean look, if I needed to be there, if I wasn’t actively participating, then sure. But it’s incredibly cruel to insist that the guy with ADD sit down and say or do nothing in a small room for hours on end for no purpose. It’s actively wasteful of time and company resources. When they don’t tell me why I’m needed (or go way off their agenda) then it’s really unclear if I can actually leave or not. So I start reading because I would go nuts otherwise.

        1. Mike C.*

          And I don’t mean to sound so mean here, it’s just that the ADD thing is actually very real and lots of folks don’t take it seriously. I take meds, I do what my doctors say I should do, but it’s like these managers needlessly stick me in situations that run up against my limits for no discernible business purpose.

          1. LizB*

            I totally understand that this situation would make you hit your limit (it would make me hit mine, and I don’t even have ADD) but being on your phone when someone is talking to you, even if what they’re talking about is not actually relevant to you, is generally considered rude. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have been frustrated and wanted to get away, but it would actually have been more polite to just get up and quietly leave, or get up and whisper “Excuse me for a moment” and then have that moment be the rest of the meeting.

            1. Marcela*

              Being in the same situation most meetings, if the topic is not relevant to my job and they do not need my input, they are not talking to me. At. All.

              I actually managed to skip most meetings because they are wasting money asking me to sit in meetings where I do not understand a word and I cannot contribute. My boss let me go, but my co-boss was not happy. I can see him trying to force me to go to all meetings, just because, and then getting annoyed if I use that time to read about my job problems. Of course, he can say that go to meetings it’s part of my job, but that does not mean I won’t get supremely annoyed to be forced to waste time when they are asking me to do an extra effort.

          2. Emi.*

            But you handled it badly. You could’ve said “It looks like you guys don’t need my input on this; since you have it sorted I’m going to go back to the spouts office,” or “I’m not sure why I was added to this meeting; do you need me for something specific, or can I go back to teacups?” or whatever makes sense for the particular meeting (and your rung on the ladder). Being on your phone is disrespectful to the person whom you’re apparently supposed to be paying attention to. If you’re doing it because you think they’re being disrespectful to you, that’s passive-aggressive (and probably misdirected, because you’re not only being rude to whoever’s talking, not just the person who decided to include you). Yes, they’re being annoying, but you should be direct, and ask for an ADD accommodation if you want.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              This, this. Our board meeting frequently have visitors, people who wish to address something or people who we need to talk with. The person running the meeting will take that topic first so the visitor can leave if they chose.
              We are frequently asked if anything else is needed. We answer honestly. Then the person can chose to leave or stay. We are very accepting of the fact that they need to leave.

              I really recommend speaking up. You can do this at the time you are invited (told) to go to the meeting. “My time is very limited. What is the topic/question you wish for me to address?”

              Tell them upfront, rather than dropping hints by staring at your phone the entire time. Don’t forget, probably they don’t want to be there either. Your desire to leave is not greater than their desire to leave, that is the way they see it.

              1. Mike C.*

                Those visitors are there for the express purpose of presenting something. I was simply told to be there because “I would be needed”. I wasn’t.

                Also, folks keep saying that I was being passive-aggressive or dropping hints by being on my phone. I’m not. I’m literally bored out of my mind and need something quiet to do to occupy my time. This is how I deal with having ADD.

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  I think it’s fine to ask what topics you will be expected to address. If they can’t name the topics, they probably don’t need you. It almost sounds like these folks don’t write and agenda.

                  Maybe you did not intend to be P/A but the gesture comes across that way. A lot of people would read that as “I don’t think you people are important enough that I should pay attention.” As gently as possible, I would like to say that others are also bored out of their minds, too. I don’t think you will win this one by saying you are bored. Your stronger bet is to encourage the folks to nail down the topics you will be needed for.

          3. Princess Carolyn*

            I have ADD and would share the same frustration. If I’m in a meeting, I better be engaging in the conversation, presenting something, or getting info that’s important enough for me to write down. I’m not really capable of just sitting quietly and listening with my hands in my lap.

            But it’s better to decline than to show and up and act like you don’t care about what someone has to say. That’s just how manners work.

            Do you know why you’re being invited to these meetings? If you ask, you may be able to get out of them in the future — or, they’ll start making them more inclusive/relevant to you, if that makes more sense.

            1. Mike C.*

              I spoke with my manager later and took care of the issue. Like I said in my first post, this is mostly a rant about folks not caring about other people’s time.

            2. Mike C.*

              It’s actually rather difficult to ask someone in the middle of their presentation whether or not it’s going to be useful to me, or to predict when others on the phone are going to go on massive tangents.

              1. Artemesia*

                It is rude to play on your phone or take out a novel and read during someone’s presentation during a meeting. Arrange things so you aren’t there if you don’t need to be or suck it up and participate as an active listener if you must be there.

                1. Mike C.*

                  Arrange things so you aren’t there if you don’t need to be or suck it up and participate as an active listener if you must be there.

                  Like I’ve said several times, it’s a little difficult to arrange things if I’m not given good information to begin with.

                  And telling me to suck it up? Are you kidding me? The material being addressed might as well have been in a foreign language it was so far removed from what I do. Why can’t the presenters “suck it up” when the decide that I need to be in the room, give me nothing to do, and then get mad when I have to deal with the resulting situation?

                  It’s like you folks don’t take the ADD thing seriously. Would you tell someone in a wheelchair to walk it off? Would you tell someone with depression to just feel better? Wouldn’t that be considered rude? It’s no different for me.

        3. Bonky*

          Passive aggression’s always rude – that’s why it was rude to begin with.

          The polite (and professional) thing to do would have been to speak up, say that it seems the meetings weren’t relevant to you and that there was urgent work you could usefully be doing back at your desk; but that you’d have been happy to attend for any later part of the meeting that they thought you should be in. That way, you get out of the meeting, nobody’s being made to think less of you because you’re being unprofessional and disrespectful, and everybody’s happy.

        4. H.C.*

          It’s rude of the meeting organizer/coordinator to have included you when you weren’t needed, but you are being rude to everyone in the room by looking at your phone throughout the meeting – not to mention sending an implicit message to others in the room that it’s OK to ignore the speaker and check their phones too.

          If you realized that the meeting is of no pertinence to you, just excuse yourself saying something urgent came up (which is somewhat true, given whatever normal work you had to put aside to attend).

          1. Mike C.*

            It’s more of a “there’s no way I’m going to know until the end, but those who organized the meeting should know immediately if they need someone in my specialization there.

            1. H.C.*

              Ah.

              In that case, I would ask if handouts are available beforehand (or at beginning of meeting) and scroll through quickly – and use the “something more urgent” or “I have to excuse myself” (per LizB) if it’s not relevant.

              Alternatively, I would’ve just hedged my bet midway through the meeting and have just left – asking the coordinator/organizer to send me any action/follow-up items if needed on my end afterwards. If the first half is completely irrelevant and there’s nothing on the agenda to suggest the second half will be any different, I really don’t see a need for me to stay.

    2. Us, Too*

      I don’t accept invites that don’t have an agenda/purpose. When I get them I ask what they need from me and that usually gets me removed from the invitation or the clarity I need. I highly recommend this approach – it’s made a huge difference in my level of “stupid” meetings.

      2. My AAM is True*

        When I’m invited to a meeting without an agenda, I reply that knowing the agenda allows me to prepare and thus give useful answers; otherwise there’ll be a modicum of speculation and a lot of “I don’t know, I’ll have to find out.”

    3. July*

      I always carry a notepad for these meetings (assuming you actually are required to go for some reason) and write out shopping lists, to do lists, and even the occasional letter to an old friend. Look up with a thoughtful expression periodically and you’ll look like you’re taking thoughtful notes.

      1. JustaTech*

        I had a weekly meting I couldn’t get out of that was rarely useful and more than once devolved into not-quite-shouting. I got there early, took a seat in the back corner and wrote several short stories in the back of my notebook (the front always had the title of the presentation and the name of the presenter, in case my boss ever wanted to look).
        Not the best use of my time, but necessary for office politics.

    4. PizzaDog*

      You’re right in that you shouldn’t accept the meeting invite next time. Being on your phone during a meeting, regardless of whether you’re interested / needed, is rude and distracting for others in the room.

    5. Lisa B*

      Can you just ask why you were included? Maybe someone higher up thought it would be good exposure for you, or wants you to get more involved in Area Z of the company. Or if they see you as a security blanket, they just want you hearing the conversation so you can speak up if you hear something concerning that nobody else thought of (which happens frequently in my line of work….) Surfing on your phone is a little disrespectful to others in the room.

      1. Mike C.*

        I was thinking that these meetings were more of the latter (which is normally fine), but that wasn’t even the case this time. It was three hour-hour long meetings before, during and after lunch. I did speak to my manager after the fact and it was taken care of. I have similar security blanket type meetings and that’s generally fine, but these topics weren’t even close.

        I just normally trust people to know if they need me or not rather than signing me up just for the heck of it, and this trust has generally worked out. Until now.

    6. Clever Name*

      I questioned the value of my presence in meetings where a group of people go round robin with project status updates and I don’t have anything to contribute or gain from such meetings. I have blessedly not been invited to more of those meetings. If you have the standing, you can just decline the meeting and if they push back, ask what the purpose of your presence there is. If it’s just to “keep you in the loop” ask that the forward you the minutes afterwards (I’m sure no one takes minutes in this meeting).

    7. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      Just adding that I don’t find it rude (unless I’m actually saying something that pertains to you and you didn’t notice b/c you were on the phone). Also, I do the same thing – because I will literally fall asleep. If you stick me in a tiny room and expect me to stare straight ahead and listen to things that don’t pertain to me my head will be noticeably bobbing. I don’t know if it’s an ADD thing (I’ve never been diagnosed, but I strongly suspect I have it – just somehow developed strong coping skills in school) or a touch of narcolepsy, but if I’m sitting still and bored out of my mind I WILL fall asleep. Which is worse

      I drink coffee before and I drink coffee during. I’ve tried snacking, strong mints (most helpful so far, but still doesn’t completely solve it), ice cold drinks, digging my nails into my wrists/hands and fidget jewelry. I bring a notebook and doodle, take notes or try to write out personal lists – but that can only sustain me so long. I only need so many groceries, etc.

      1. Bonky*

        If you’re regularly falling asleep in meetings, you might want to think about talking to a doctor; that’s very unusual, and it’ll (strongly and negatively) impact the way you’re perceived at work.

        1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

          I’ve brought it up with my doctor – it does not appear to be medical. Its not all meetings, only when its something that has nothing to do with me, where I can’t really engage mentally with the material.

          I’m just saying that I don’t take this behavior personally or find it rude (unless, like I said, I’m specifically addressing the distractee or its very obvious that this pertains directly to the distractee). But I totally get that I’m in the minority there.

      2. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        Also – I am legit good at multi-tasking, so I can read and at least pay moderate attention/follow along enough to catch when I’m needed. I totally acknowledge that I cannot fully take in everything while reading/surfing the web, but I absolutely can do the equivalent of auditorily skimming along while reading/surfing the web.

        I used to drive teachers crazy b/c they thought they could “catch me” when it looked like I was not paying attention by either asking to me abruptly to pick up where another student left off reading aloud or by asking me a random question about something they just said. Most of them usually backed off when they realized all I was doing was reading ahead or reading other materials quietly in the back, but still following along.

        1. Mike C.*

          Yeah, I’ve never come up short answering a question or otherwise jumping in when needed.

          I still remember multiple times in grade school where a teacher (or in one case the principal) stopping the lesson, then asking me a question about what was being taught – in an effort to shame me into “paying better attention” or whatever. Every time I would look up, give a really detailed answer and maybe ask a question or two of my own. It would never happen again with that particular individual.

      3. Mike C.*

        And see, what’s weird to me is that a whole bunch of managers were on their phones as well, so it’s not like I was the only one.

    8. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

      On the flip side, when I send a meeting out and forget to put even a short, few bullets agenda, I don’t get offended when people either decline or ask why they were invited. I welcome open conversation and questions on that from the invitees, and then it prompts me to craft a bit more and resend the invite. I’m trying to be better at putting agendas. I’ve also had folks ask me if they can “go first” because they have a conflict and if that request is feasible, due to the nature of the meeting (i.e. status updates), I will accommodate if possible.

      I do sit in meetings where I have no idea why I am there other than it’s great exposure (meetings with company president, many c-level execs). I literally say NOTHING during the meetings, am so low on the totem pole that I’m not even ON the pole, and just try to follow along. But, if my managers want me there for exposure, then I’m going! But I do not check my phone or even my laptop for emails in these scenarios because at the very least, I need to appear to be actively listening in front of the big cheeses.

      I recently ran training for a tool we use and I set the training in 2 hour chunks, rather than half or all day. I made a “rules of the road” handout that said no phones or laptops during class. If they needed to step out to check their devices, they certainly could, I had no issue with that. I got a few grumbles, but by other sessions, people were not on their devices. I also do not like facilitating meetings, presenting or even participating in meetings when someone is engrossed with their phone. It is up to the attendee to decide to attend or not based on agenda, or asking about a missing agenda beforehand. Showing up without that knowledge and then being on their phone is passive-aggressive. I’d almost rather someone walk in, walk up to me, ask if they need to be there, and get their answer then so they can stay or leave. As an aside, I’m not shy to politely call them out if they are the person who looks up from their device to ask the speaker to repeat something during a meeting, regardless of whether they were needed or not. Unless it’s a critical work matter that can be taken care of on their device in short order, don’t be on your device. And apologize if you get caught off-guard in the meeting by being on your device.

      1. Mike C.*

        On the flip side, when I send a meeting out and forget to put even a short, few bullets agenda

        This makes you a saint.

    9. Trix*

      Several hours late, just saying my goodness do I feel you.

      I can usually get away with it in the 10-25+ people meetings, but I did att3md one about two weeks ago with four people, no agenda, no clear idea of why any of us (not just me!) were even there.

      Afterwards, my boss told me that the meeting organizer told him I was “mean.”

  34. margarets*

    Job search frustration.

    I have a master’s degree in a niche field and it involved A LOT of very applied, technical work. But I cannot get a look-in for jobs due to my lack of PAID experience. Even for jobs where the skill level would be BELOW what I did in my master’s, even for jobs where they aren’t checking WHAT the paid experience actually was (just looking at “X number of years in a job with a similar title). And the idea that I couldn’t learn the specifics of the job is incredibly galling since a master’s degree is ALL ABOUT LEARNING. Like, I think I have proven that I can learn at a high level, and very independently.

    Why is it so difficult to for employers to see this?

    1. Anxa*

      Oof, I don’t know.

      I’ve debating going to graduate school. I’m a B.S. in biology and I see master’s preferred on nearly every job ad in my current local. But I’m already lobsided with having a degree and not enough experience (and none paid), and graduate degree would only make it worse. On the one hand I want to keep moving forward, on the other hand I don’t want to dig myself deeper into this problem.

      I really wish I could just find an entry level job, get two years of experience, and then have a better idea on whether graduate school makes sense for me. It’s sad because you can pay (or at least school your way) into an internship or invest the time to volunteer, but you can never move into that paid experience position on your own and it takes someone else to give you a chance.

      1. margarets*

        It’s really tough. I worked for 15 years before getting the master’s and in my jobs I did LOADS of things for which I had no training or experience. I figured it out on my own. And many, many jobs are like that – the job call requires a degree or whatever, but the job itself really doesn’t. It’s an absurd state of affairs that millions of people are affected by this stupidity. Good luck out there :)

    2. Christy*

      In general, employers can have requirements like this because they’re able to find qualified applicants who meet the criteria. If they were unable to find good employees with their current requirements, then why should they change them?

      And from their perspective on this particular issue, why should they take a chance on someone without paid work experience, when they have enough applicants who have it? Those with experience won’t have to take the time to learn office norms in the same way recent students will.

      1. margarets*

        >If they were unable to find good employees with their current requirements, then why should they change them?

        But often they don’t. I & others in my network know of several organizations in our area that keep looking but never hiring. We apply for those jobs and compare notes.

        > Those with experience won’t have to take the time to learn office norms in the same way recent students will.

        Ah, but I worked for 15 years before doing the master’s. Many of my classmates also worked before, so this should not be an issue for us.

    3. CheeryO*

      I sympathize – I was the newbie with an M.S. and no relevant full-time experience a few years ago, and I had this exact thought process a hundred times. I don’t know your field obviously, but in mine (a niche STEM field), a couple years of relevant work experience trumps an M.S. every time. Unfortunately, academic skills and the ability to learn does not always directly correlate with ability to perform well – there are so many other hard and soft skills at play. So while it’s pretty likely that someone with an advanced degree is going to be a high performer, it’s not guaranteed. Ideally there would be more truly entry-level jobs out there, but if employers have the luxury of choice, they’re going to go with the tested, proven candidate every time. The good news is that the market seems to really be picking up (at least where I am), so the competition for “entry-level” positions should be getting less fierce.

      1. margarets*

        I should have clarified that I worked for 15 years before doing the master’s, so it’s not a case of a brand-spanking new grad struggling to find that first ‘real’ job. Although I think there are a whole bunch of idiotic assumptions at play there too. Experience doesn’t make one a “proven” candidate either. I’ve worked with too much dead weight to believe that anymore.

        1. CheeryO*

          Oh believe me, I agree. I hope something comes through for you soon. I did see your other comment about having 15 years of work experience, and I would definitely be annoyed too if I felt like that wasn’t being taken into consideration.

      2. JustaTech*

        Ugh, not what I wanted to hear, but good to know nonetheless. Some days I feel like this shiny new Master’s is not pulling it’s weight.

        1. CheeryO*

          Aw, it totally depends on the field, so don’t put too much stock into it! I have friends who have had tons of doors opened for them once they finished their Master’s, and I think mine might have given me a bit of a leg up in getting my current government job.

          1. margarets*

            This might sound dumb, but I feel my master’s carries more weight with people who also have advanced degrees. I find people who don’t have an advanced (or any) degree are very dismissive of it. There seems to be an attitude that people who excel at school can’t function in the “real world”, that universities just teach useless theory, and so on. So, great.

            1. Anxa*

              Oh, that’s such a great point. My SO had a very short job search after his PhD, but we did have some worries about the stigma. It’s true that education can make employers worry that you’ll bolt for a more challenging job or one that uses your degree more, and that you don’t have the experience for a job that really needs that phd yet.

              But there were a few people that couldn’t believe there was a lot of hard labor, on-the-ground problem solving, establishing partnerships, administering your projects, etc. We actually heard the phrase “the real world is not a classroom” by extended family. As if most of his time was spent reading and writing? Well there was a lot of that, but there was a lot of everything else.

  35. Maple*

    In the “misconceptions” thread I saw a brief post about asking stupid questions while training for a new job. I’ve done a loooooooooot of training in my work life, and wanted to share the one and only “stupid” question I’ve ever gotten.

    Several years ago I was managing a small specialty grocery store that had a smoothie bar. At the end of a day of training the new guy, I set him on to an “easy” project so I could get some actual closing done and get out of there: washing dishes. I had barely turned my back when he called me over and, holding up a sudsy plate with crumbs stuck to it, blessed me with this question:

    “How clean do I make these?”

    2. Eden*

      Did you say, “Clean enough that you could eat off of them”? I think sometimes junior folk have been coached that questions signal that they are engaged and learning, and ask this kind of question for reasons other than being truly unclear on how to wash a dish.

  36. Looking to freelance*

    Inspired by this weeks post on freelancing, I noticed many people in the comments saying they do some freelance work. I’m wondering how one goes about getting freelance jobs? I’m sure it varies a lot by discipline… I also know there are some sites out there that post jobs but it’s hard to know what’s legit. Any tips?

    1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I’m a graphic designer. I had a lot of success using an agency specifically geared toward creative jobs — graphic design, photography, illustration, etc. The company was called Aquent*. While “temp” work isn’t the greatest, I was able to work with a large and small businesses in different industries over a large geographic region. That helped me build up a network of contacts with both clients and other creative professionals that could refer me to other freelance jobs, and ultimately some permanent positions.

      Networking is really key. You have to be a sales person for yourself. Have a personal business card, a social media presence, a website/portfolio, etc., and be bold about telling people you are looking for freelance jobs.

      *This was a decade ago. I know they are still around but I have no idea what it’s like to currently work for them. I liked working with an agent/headhunter because I could focus on doing the job I loved and less on marketing myself and vetting out clients. Plus, the agency paid me and so I never had to worry about collecting and book keeping, etc.

    2. Dizzy Steinway*

      Wow, I’m surprised there aren’t more responses. Just to let you know I’m writing one answer to both on the question below yours!

  37. Should I go Freelance?*

    Anyone have experience/advice about if or when to go freelance? My writing role is somewhat “supportive” (depending on the extent that the company allows the role to get involved or not). In fact, there’s a big freelancing community that some companies will utilize. Lately I’ve been frustrated with how I’m ‘treated’ at work, and sometimes think freelancing would make me happier. For example, if groups are inefficient and causes me to do something twice, well that’s a waste of time for me and I have re-prioritize my other projects–but in the end, the metric is still just the 1 project. However, as a freelancer, if I had to re-do something, it would be a very calm “no problem” because I’m just billing per hour. I also don’t get much acknowledgement, and as a freelancer, my mindset would be more of a calm”I’m a service provider who bills per hour.”

    How do you know when to jump into freelance versus staying a few more years to gain experience, because the more experience you get, the better freelancer you’ll be (with greater/wider opportunities)?

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      I was freelance twice – once for three years (I stopped that time because one of my clients ended up hiring me) and once for six years.

      How to get freelance work depends a LOT on the field. For example in some fields it’s normal to use a recruiter or agent (e.g. the post about graphic design on the question above) and in others this would be really weird. So talk to others in your field – successful ones, e.g. on Reddit communities or relevant forums – and find out what the norms are and what sites are legit. Do not get your info from people who aren’t actually successful yet as they may seriously misinform you.

      I got my work through a mix of having a website that people found, networking, cold emailing and other people recommending me. A really key thing to understand is that other freelancers are your colleagues, not just your competition, and are the people most likely to recommend you for work, hire you when they manage projects, etc.

      In answer to this comment about WHEN to go freelance, I’d like to start by correcting a misconception. You may not be billing by hour – for some types of projects you’d do it by word or agree a project fee. You might build revisions into the price. But I’d think carefully about those frustrations and how they’ll affect you – as a freelancer you’ll still need to re-priorities if that happens (until you get used to planning for it), and that’s harder to do when it’s not one job. You can’t go to your other clients and tell them something came up. If you are easily frustrated by this kind of thing, you may find it frustrating as a freelancer too. But then you get to say no to repeat projects with clients who make your heart sink. And agree prices that reflect this stuff.

      I think going freelance is something to ideally do with forward planning. The first time round I built up a bit of freelance work on the side first, with permission, and saved up a bit, then took the plunge when I felt like I couldn’t take my awful boss for one more day.

      The second time I was so miserable and I remember thinking I would email some of my old clients and if even one said they had work for me I would quit. I figured none of them would. They all did and I felt so relieved – so I quit for my sanity.

      The number one thing to be aware of is that freelancing isn’t just about doing paid work – you also have to think about the time you’ll be spending on other stuff like admin and networking, and the fact nobody will be paying for anything for you like pens, software, etc.

  38. Any Moose*

    What prie to work at home? I have a phone interview next week for a remote position. It is about 15k less than what I make now BUT, I now commute an hour each way to a high stress job at a 14 person nonprofit that is struggling in more ways than one. I can calculate the savings on things like mileage, work clothes, etc. Is there anything else I am missing?

    2. ThatGirl*

      Can you still comfortably pay your bills with that big a paycut? Are you suitably motivated to work at home? Do you enjoy in-person interaction a lot? Do you get stir-crazy being at home a lot? All things to consider.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I think the big thing to work at home is can you be self-motivated and keep up your needed output during “work hours.”

      Will you miss daily interaction with co-workers? Will you be able to pick up the phone to call someone if you need to? Do you need to bounce things off co-workers?

      Will you have distractions at home (kids, family, pets)? Can you work around them? (Will you have family members that think “Oh she works from home, it’ll be no problem for her to…run oover and do this, won’t mind if I pop by to say hi, can come house-sit for me, etc., etc.”)

      Can you maintain a positive relationship with boss/co-workers (vs. out of sight/out of mind)?

      In terms of saving money…being able to eat home (not having to pack lunches, worry about messy leftovers, being able to warm up fish in the microwave if you want to), having your own private/personal bathroom…

      1. Liane*

        “Will you have distractions at home (kids, family, pets)? Can you work around them?”
        If you do have kids, remember that most companies require WFH employees to have childcare.

    4. BenAdminGeek*

      Having done a similar switch, I now estimate the cost of the commute at about $5,000 in pain and suffering a year, and the high stress at about the same. That’s not including gas, wear & tear, etc. I didn’t realize how badly it had impacted my life until my daughter shared with her teacher how great my new job was because now she got to see me every day.

    5. Lady By The Lake*

      Will the company pay for a super-fast internet connection, computer, printer/scanner, phone, toner? Toner is outrageously expensive! Also, think about your work space. I thought mine was fine until I was sitting there full time. I needed to buy a bigger desk and a more ergonomic chair. If you will be on the phone a lot, a wireless headset is a must. Also think about your cell reception. Mine is not great, so I have a landline. I have to keep my heat and air conditioning at a comfortable level all day — no more turning those down/up during the work day.As for monetary savings, there aren’t a lot — you basically have them. Add dry cleaning if your work clothes need that.
      All that said, I LOVE working from home. I like that my commute is 10 ft, that I am at my own house and am comfortable. I love that I never have to hassle about being home for cable or other contractors. I love that I essentially set my own schedule. I like it that my cats are here for when I get stressed out. I love that my office windows look out over a lake and that I have been seeing bald eagles flying by all week.

    6. LaterKate*

      It sounds like you have a good handle on where the monetary savings would come in. But, that’s a pretty big pay cut, imo. My concern would be two-fold. 1. Is there any chance that this job could become un-remote at any point? If for some reason your employer decided to have you work on site (if apllicable), I doubt that that would come with a pay increase to get you back to your old salary. And also, if you move on from this new job at some point, there is a risk that this pay cut will effect your future earnings, since many companies still base your pay on what you were making before. Not exactly the question you asked, but there’s my $0.02.

  39. Anon4this*

    My question is about the gray area of admin type tasks, when you’re not an admin.

    Some background, I am a middle manager in my mid-thirties and female. My area of management is very specialized, think Teapot Intelligence & Data Science. Often times I am seconded to another department to work on special projects and find myself the youngest, least senior and only woman on these teams. Even though my actual job includes zero admin duties, I find myself being asked to do admin-type tasks in connection with these projects when there’s no administrative assistants available to help.

    For example, I am asked to take notes on phone calls with prospective customers, asked to set up meetings with vendors, and asked to aggregate everyone’s meeting notes for distribution to the team after the meeting.

    I have done all of these without complaint, because really, everyone else involved are Vice Presidents and C-level executives so it seems unrealistic to suggest one of them do these tasks instead or we take turns. But it does irk me that I have gotten to this level of my career and I’m still typing up people’s notes, except now I’m doing it for $100K per year. Of course, this is all on top of the actual work that relates to my area of expertise; which is the reason I am asked to work on these projects to begin with.

    Am I being unreasonable in thinking this is a waste for all involved, or is this more of an annoying fact of life and its best I just get over it?

    2. Always Anon*

      In cases where you are the most junior position and the rest of the group are VPs or C-level, then I think it makes sense for you to complete the admin work. But in a group of peers (based on title), you shouldn’t always be the one doing those tasks just because you’re younger or female.

      At one point, I was a director (middle-manager) with two peers, one male and one female. The one male, who was older than both of us females, always expected one of us females to do any admin tasks. We both pushed back and made him do some of the work – scheduling meetings, taking notes, etc.

    3. Temperance*

      That’s just not kosher. Are you the only person at your level, or the only one at your level who keeps getting these crappy tasks?

      I honestly don’t find this acceptable at all unless men at your level were also asked to type notes and compile notes.

      1. Anon4this*

        I’m the only one at my level and the only non-executive. So it may just be coincidental that I keep getting these tasks since I am the most junior on the project.

        It is literally all executive level men and me. Which I should think speaks to my accomplishment at my job, that I’m being brought in on these projects at this level, but it does feel diminished if I’m doing the research…and typing the notes.

        2. Emi.*

          I agree. Who’s directly above you, or most mentor-y? Can you go talk to him, and say specifically that you’re concerned about getting pegged in an admin role, so you’d like to stop getting these tasks? See if you can get him in your corner on this–can he push to get more admins? Can he volunteer to take notes and set up meetings? Can he say “Aw, come on, guys, why should Anon4this do all the admin things? Just because she’s a woman? If we need an admin we should get an admin.”

    4. amysee*

      Do you have a more junior staff member on your own team to whom you could assign these tasks?

    5. AndersonDarling*

      Compiling and distributing other’s notes is the line. Someone has to take notes, and someone within the group will need to set up meetings, but taking other’s notes and reworking them into a new doc? Nope! I’d push back if that comes up again. The VP definitely has a secretary or admin, or both, and they should be assigned the work by the VP. There shouldn’t be any issue bringing that up the next time it happens, “I’m in meetings all week. Is it possible that your secretary could handle this?”

      1. AnitaJ*

        I actually have a different take on this. As an EA, I’ve been asked to sit in on calls and take notes where frankly, I have no knowledge of the content. None at all. I have no clue what these people are talking about. They throw out acronyms and technical terms and I’m completely lost. Try as I might, my notes end up coming out looking like jibberish–making me look stupid and benefiting nobody.

        After a few times, I asked that an associate be looped in to take the notes (the most junior person above me). Not only will they accurately capture the meeting, but it might help give them a chance to engage on a project or with a client where before, they wouldn’t have been invited.

        This is all to say: I have no problem with note-taking when it’s routine. But when you’re deep into content and you’re pulling an EA into a project? Remember that the EA may not have the SME that you need to give you the product you want.

        1. copy run start*

          Yes! Even when I was an admin, I struggled to take relevant notes when tasked with meeting minutes for a community group that met semi-monthly. I was so anxious for the first two years because I:

          – didn’t know who these people were (I struggle with matching names to faces) other than they were mostly director-level
          – didn’t know their organizations or missions
          – didn’t know the relevant laws impacting the organizations
          – didn’t know the group backhistory that stretched over 10 years

          Only in year 3 did I finally feel I had my head above water and a clear grasp of what needed to be recorded and how it all fit together.

    6. Clever Name*

      Do you have any admin support at your disposal? I think you are entirely within your rights to delegate most or all of these tasks. Don’t ask permission to delegate. Just do it. They probably won’t even notice.

    7. Gracie*

      I’d speak to someone about including an admin during these meetings because when you have to focus on those duties you aren’t focusing on the job they are actually paying you to do. It’s hard to give input or think of solutions or explain something if you have to focus on the admin side. I’d let someone know you aren’t able to give your 100% because of this distraction and an easy solution would be to find an admin to do those things.

    8. Princess Carolyn*

      Is it absolutely necessary to aggregate and distribute these notes? To me, this feels like more of an “everyone’s responsible for their own notes” situation, given that nobody involved is an admin. Is it reasonable to just let those tasks go undone?

      1. Dizzy Steinway*

        Agreed. Minutes are one thing but aggregating everyone’s notes from a meeting you all went to?

        Could you have a shared doc where you all input your own notes?

    9. FlyingFergus*

      I agree that it’s trickier when you’re the most junior person at the meeting, but presumably you were invited for your expertise, and not solely because they needed someone to handle logistics with vendors and to do administrative tasks. If that is the case, then it completely makes sense to push back politely and suggest they get an admin to handle those parts, and you can use some of the points in this article to make your case: https://nyti.ms/1LUk2Eb

      (In case it doesn’t link – it’s an article from the NY Times by Sheryl Sandberg and Adam Grant on women bring asked to do the “office housework” – the two of them wrote a 4 article series on women in work that really resonated with me.)

  40. Allison*

    I’m just shy of a couple months into my new job, and we’re having a team offsite next week, so I’ll get to meet the remote members of the team! It’s exciting, but I’m also a little nervous. I’m 27, and I’m short, and my face reads young (although these acne scars are starting to age me a little), and if my past experience is any indicator of future experiences, I worry my older coworkers will see me as a child, or at least someone who doesn’t know much and needs someone to gently walk her through everything. I don’t want people talking down to me for two whole days. I’d really like to give a strong first impression that shows them I’m an intelligent, knowledgeable, competent young woman so they take me seriously as an actual adult colleague, does anyone have any tips on how I can do that?

    1. Temperance*

      I would recommend a.) wearing makeup, b.) keeping your hair “done” and not in a slopknot or otherwise messy, and c.) dressing very conservatively.

      I’m 33, and look younger, especially because I’m very blond and very short. When I wear my work clothes, I tend to dress fashionably but conservatively, and I’m treated like an adult most of the time, but when I’m in jeans and a sweatshirt/sneakers, people easily think I’m 10 or more years younger. I also do this thing where I roleplay someone who has her shit together, and think “what would Elle Woods do?” and do that, although less happily.

    2. NaoNao*

      Tips I’ve read:
      Firm handshake, direct eye contact
      If you have a soft, low voice, raise it and strengthen it
      Use your full name when you introduce yourself

      Clothing/hair/makeup
      If you don’t wear makeup, perhaps a few light products (BB cream, a soft gloss, mascara) only for that day might be in order
      Conservative but not stuffy clothing that you’re comfortable in: perhaps a pencil skirt and fitted crew neck sweater, with slip on shoes (not ballet flats, as those read youthful and girlish) or a pair of dark gray trousers with a blue button down and lace up shoes like oxfords

      Hair:
      If it’s long, I’d pull it up/back and secure with simple, classic accessories
      If it’s short(er) I’d maybe get a blow out or a professional style the day before.

      I once read that the demarcation line between youthful and polished/adult is “edges”–so, haircut/style, nails, handbag, shoes, and accessories. As one gets a bit older, it’s a visual signal of authority and experience to have polished, quality “edges”. That’s not to say you can’t have fun with it, but it needs to be careful, purposeful, and high quality (like, say, one simple, very high quality bag vs. the quirky theme tote from Target that switches out every few weeks).

      Good luck!!

    3. Hiker 1546*

      When I was a first-year CPA there was another first-year woman who had the same question as you. She was short and had longish curly hair, wore flouncy skirts and accessories that read “college” and was smiling all the time. Then she complained that clients were not treating her seriously like they did other first-year staff. So in her second year, she followed advice to cut her hair to a more professional look, wear more professional-looking clothing and accessories and stop being the smiley person. For her it made an amazing difference with how clients treated her with the eventual result that one of her clients hired her away for a managerial position.

      2. Jennifer Walters*

        I’m a 25 year old attorney who often still gets carded at bars (and an R-Rated movie just 6 months ago!) I echo the dressing professionally (I wear a lot of solid colors, mostly blacks and blues, no pastels), using a firm handshake, and eye contact. I also have long hair that I keep pulled back.

        I also find that confidence is key. When I’m asked questions by colleagues/judges, I respond clearly with as little filler as possible, making sure I don’t use phrases like “This may be just me, but…” or “I could be wrong, but…” It helps shut down any attempts to walk me through things I already know. Further, if you act like you know you’re an intelligent, knowledgeable, competent young woman, they’ll get the drift (as long as you stray away from just showing off.)

        That said, I still get asked about my age. It’s annoying, but I remember an AAM answer from a while ago that suggested just owning up to how old you were. So, I tell them I’m 25 and move on immediately.

        Good luck!

    4. CheeryO*

      Fellow 27-year-old here who has a serious babyface and regularly needs to project authority around much older and more experienced people. I’d definitely give a +1 to the tips on makeup, hair, and clothes. It’s a little unfortunate that so much stock gets put into appearance, but that’s a big part of how humans make their first impressions, so it’s easiest to just play into it a little bit. I transitioned from long hair with thick bangs and a center part to a shoulder length cut with a side part, and that alone helped a ton. I still get the “Wow, you’re young!” comments, but I feel like I’m taken seriously and respected.

      Something else that helps is to have authoritative body posture. Stand up super straight with your shoulders back, and think about fully occupying the space your body takes up. I also like the “power poses” from the body language TED talk (definitely look it up if you haven’t seen it!). They sound a little crazy, but I swear they help! Confidence is key for being taken seriously.

  41. Beezus*

    I need a reality check – when is it unprofessional or weird to rearrange your hair at work?

    I have longer hair – it’s a couple of inches past my shoulders and pretty thick. I normally start my day with it down around my shoulders, but tend to scrape it up into a bun or a ponytail at some point during the day, and often later wind up pulling it back down. Sometimes, on a really tough day, I’ll alternate a couple of times – down, up, down, up, down. I need to clarify that I’m not doing a ton of primping for this…I’m not leaving my desk or using a mirror and I’m spending maybe 15 seconds on each change, just a yank and maybe a little fingercombing. My job is not client facing at all, so I am not doing this in front of customers.

    I have a very experienced coworker who I’ve been working with more frequently lately, and she’s started commenting on it. “Wait, wasn’t your hair down this morning?”, and “Uh oh, she’s putting her hair up again!” The way she’s commenting on it has started to get a very mild disapproving tone. I’ve always thought this was a completely fine and normal thing to do, and if it’s just a quirk of hers to mention it, I can ignore that, but she’s making me wonder if I need to change my habits. I’ve been trying to watch and take cures from other people, but I am the only other person in our immediate group with hair long enough to do this, so I’m seeking input.

      1. Sadsack*

        Agreed. I’d ignore her completely like you didn’t even hear her. She’ll either stop it or escalate to the point where she has to ask you why you change your hair at work. If she does the latter, I would just look at her confused and ask, “Why do you ask?” because what you are doing seems completely normal to me.

    4. Mike C.*

      This coworker is being weird and needs to shut up about what you do with your hair.

      Or you could set up a shared Excel spreadsheet and list dates/times you change your hair for her. Get her to countersign to ensure she’s seen the latest updates. It’ll be a solid bonding experience for the both of you, I’m sure.

      /No, I should never be a manger. Why do you ask?

      1. Cranberry*

        I would be very tempted to do something like this. “Oh, do you want me to route my hairstyles?Who do I need to put as an approver? I didn’t realize my personal appearance was in “collect comments” stage.”

        Beezus, this is a profoundly silly comment, don’t worry about your coworker! I do the same exact thing (putting hair up and down as necessary). Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.

    5. Allison*

      Personally, I wouldn’t judge someone for doing it, just like I wouldn’t judge someone for reapplying lipstick or putting on some face powder at their desk. Like you said, you’re not client facing. How much privacy do you have at your desk?

      I could, however, see someone being weirded out by it if they’re worried you’re getting hair everywhere, or getting hair oil and product all over your hands, or making your hair dirty by touching it too much.

      But if someone keeps commenting, I might ask if it’s bothering her, or if it’s wrong to change my hair, hoping she’d either tell me it is, or she’d realize she doesn’t need to be making those comments. If she says it’s no problem, I might ask her to stop commenting on it then.

    6. whichsister*

      I do this too. I start with my hair down but when I get into a project it often goes up. I will even use gem clips to put my hair up sometimes. Obviously your co-worker needs a new hobby.

      1. Red Reader*

        Then there’s the days you come home and six pens fall out of your bun that you forgot you stuck in there. Or maybe that’s just me…

        1. PB*

          I’m glad I’m not alone on this! I’ve long shoved writing implements into my bun or ponytail. Apparently, other people find this weird.

      2. Catabodua*

        I have a coworker who has thick hair that goes just past her shoulders and she fusses with it a bit during the day.

        The fussing with it doesn’t bother me in and of iteself, but I am totally grossed out by how much hair she leaves around her desk by doing all the fussing.

        Perhaps make sure that you aren’t leaving a trail of hair? Particularly if it’s in a shared space.

        1. Allison*

          Mmm, important point. OP, make sure your hair isn’t prone to breakage, and if it is, OGX makes a good shampoo and conditioner combo to reduce breakage.

    7. Spoonie*

      I do the exact same thing. Other than an occasional doubletake from my department manager, no one has commented. This is on your coworker.

    8. Red Reader*

      She’s being obnoxious. As long as you’re not, like, leaving handfuls of shed hair or dandruff flakes all over the office from your fiddling with it, you’re fine. (My hair is hip-length and while I generally don’t go from down to up and back, it’s not unusual at all for me to de-bun and slightly reposition, to move my bun higher or lower on my head to adjust where the weight of that much hair rests. Thirty seconds, tops.)

      1. SM*

        Hello fellow long hair person! I don’t know how you can stand to have it in a bun all day. (Have any secrets? Or high tolerance from practice?) I usually stick with a braid. If I feel the need to change styles I’ll usually try to do it when there aren’t other people around or in the restroom, since it takes me longer than 30 seconds to braid. But anything less than 30 seconds seems fine to me, regardless of who is around. If I saw someone switching up their hair like that, I’d probably think, “Oh, her hair must be driving her nuts right now. I know what that’s like!”

        1. Red Reader*

          High tolerance, I think :) for me the secret is to make sure it’s a wide flat bun rather than one that sticks out? It feels, at least, like it spreads the weight out better. Also positioning it higher helps, the lower it is the more it feels like it’s dragging on my scalp.

          I do braids sometimes, especially in the winter when I might want to wear a hat, but my hair gets super frizzy under many weather conditions, such as: Wet. Dry. Warm. Cold. Humid. Not humid. :-P you take the point.

    9. AngtheSA*

      I do this. I usually start out with it down and then by midday it is up in a bun or low ponytail. No one has said anything to me about it. Your coworker’s comments are weird. I would just ignore her, why is she monitoring how your hair looks?

    10. strawberries and raspberries*

      I hate to sound ridiculous, but she’s probably jealous. I’m also in the Long Thick Hair Club, and the only people who make idiotic comments about my hair are people who don’t have any hair or hate their own hair.

    11. Beezus*

      Thanks for validating, guys. It seemed okay to me, but I wanted to make sure I wasn’t being oblivious about a behavior that reasonable people might actually find off-putting. If it’s just her hangup, I’m easily able to ignore it.

    12. ddd*

      As long as you’re not doing your hair in the middle of conversations with coworkers or something, it’s completely normal! Ignore your coworker – or better yet when she asks give a puzzled look and say something like “why do you ask? “

    15. Rookie Manager*

      I do this all the time too. I don’t think its really an issue. I usually have a hair band on my wrist and will put my hair up without noticing- if that fails I later find a pencil in my hair.

      I wouldn’t worry about it. It’s her issue not yours.

      1. Hiker 1546*

        Wait – up, down, up, down?? If you do this more than once or twice in a day, maybe your co-worker is suggesting that this demonstrates a less than professional image. If you are an entry level person, then whatever floats your boat, but if you want to be seen as someone who wants a higher level position in your company, you might want to think about how other people are perceiving you. It would seem very odd for a manager to be playing with their hair like this.

        1. Sadsack*

          I think this is extreme. Unless the person is sitting in meetings putting her hair in and out of a ponytail the whole time, no one is probably cares about the changes. I took Rookie to mean that she does it frequently, like maybe once or twice a day, not literally all day long.

    16. NewBoss2016*

      Your coworker is being goofy. How does she have time to pay attention to your hairstyle changes? I have mid-back hair, and I can’t make it but a few hours without throwing it up in a pony tail. It either gets too hot, or is in the way if I am hunched down reviewing documents. I take it back down every few hours after it gets too heavy. The only time I don’t mess with it at all is if I start the day with a bun (I use those foam donuts). Nobody has ever said anything to me. Since this thread popped up, I glanced around the office and several long-haired coworkers are doing the same thing. I don’t think it is unprofessional at all. I would kind of understand if you had a messy dorm-bun and were meeting clients, but it sounds like that isn’t the case at all.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      I will be the odd one here. Yes, I notice people playing with their hair through out the day.
      Part of the reason could be because I am old. I was always told keep your hands AWAY from your hair.
      The other part of the reason I notice is because I start to wonder why the restlessness, why the constant discontent with the hair? Again, this is probably just me. I know I would catch myself thinking, fixing the hair again?
      I think that constant hair changes in some offices would not read very well.

      I’d love to hear what Alison has to say…Alison?

      1. Hrovitnir*

        Putting your hair up and down once or twice isn’t constant. Would you really perceive this as constant? I can appreciate this could be a generational thing, but I think it’s a bit extreme to see it as “playing with your hair” to retie it a couple of times a day.

        I personally don’t really care what people think (and hope to never be in a job where I need to care), but I generally do this because having my hair out irritates the crap out of me but I get headaches no matter how I tie it up so I usually let it out for a little bit.

    18. joe*

      As the long Haired Freaky person of my office ( LOONG hair and a significant beard) Put you hair up when you go in ONLY take it out in the bathroom or when out of the office or off the floor. IF you do take it out point out that whomever you are dealing with is in trouble now as you have taken out the scrunchy and are not affraid to use it.

  43. Camellia*

    I have several posts for OFFICE MERCENARY today. This one is in response to her question last Friday about gracefully turning down men who keep hitting on her and asking her out. OM, I’m giving you the tactics that have worked for me in many situations, with an emphasis on solutions for business situations. I know this is long but I hope some of this will be helpful to you in building strong boundaries.

    If he blatantly asks you out, or asks you to go somewhere or do something in a way that can be construed as asking you out but that he can backtrack on by scorning the suggestion that he was asking you out, here’s what has worked for me.

    Practice saying this out loud – “Aw, no thanks!” The “aw” should sound like when you see a cute kitten picture, but make sure it is a lower tone, not a high and/or squeaky tone, and only lasts for ONE eye blink. It’s “aw”, not “awwwwww”. Then say the “no thanks” in a semi-perky tone, with a DEFINITE EXCLAMATION POINT at the end. (Perky tones are perfect for exclamation points without sounding super aggressive; just consider the difference between “Hi.” and “Hi!”) “Aw, no thanks!” This is a complete sentence. DO NOT explain or justify anything. And then immediately, BEFORE HE HAS A CHANCE TO SAY ANYTHING, start talking about something else BUSINESS RELATED, even if that ‘something else’ is just to repeat something that was already said or reiterate a point that was already made – just say anything business related. If he comes back and says it again, or a variation thereof, REPEAT THIS EXACT SAME THING. “Aw, no thanks! How about that presentation huh?!? Wasn’t that fantastic?”

    If he does it a third time, and really if you have a REPEAT OFFENDER in spite of using any of these tactics, I say you should write them off and don’t seek out further contact because they are probably not going to help you professionally anyway. And if they did, are you willing to pay the cost to get that help, even if the cost is just being acutely uncomfortable?

    And the practice OUT LOUD is important. Hearing and feeling ourselves saying stuff, practicing so it comes out quickly and easily, really makes it stick. THEN practice in your imagination – visualize scenes you’ve already experienced that didn’t go well and rewrite them in your head to incorporate these tactics. The brain can’t tell the difference between what happens outside our body and what happens only in our mind. You can replay these rewritten scenes to where they will eventually become a part of your history, as though you had really done it at the time, and that will make you more able to do them in the real world. I call this ‘visualizing the desired outcome’.
    “Meet me/us for drinks for [business reason]”. First, for any ‘drinks’ situation, don’t try to change it to ‘coffee’ right away; it is too easy for them to refuse, or just flat out ignore the attempt, and then you have to give up on the coffee idea in order to continue the conversation. That puts you at an immediate disadvantage; he’s already made you give in to him/his idea and that makes him believe he can do that with other things. Like getting you to agree to go out with him.

    So when he says, “Meet me/us for drinks”, ask questions. Here’s one possible conversation: “Drinks? Who all’s going?” If he says just him, you don’t need to do it – that’s why we have phones. So what do you say? “Aw, no thanks. How about I call you to further discuss [topic]?” If he continues to try to get you to meet him, use this tactic as many times as you have patience for. If he is only willing to ‘help’ you if you get personal with him, write him off and move on. “No thanks!” Smile. Excuse yourself. Walk away.

    Then here’s the thing – there is a chance that your next contact with him will be strictly business because you’ve established a firm boundary. And if it isn’t, repeat the above and move on.

    If he says ‘drinks’ will be with more than just him, press him for information. Who? Where exactly? At what time? And so forth. What do you do with this info? You decide if you want to give it a try, to see if he is lying about it not being only him and also if it is with people with whom you would genuinely like to connect. Then you say, “Sure, I can be there!” The “be there” is an important word choice; it conveys that you will get there – by yourself. Avoid all efforts of him to pick you up and drive there with “Aw, no thanks! I’ll meet everyone there!” (You should have the tone down pat by this time.) If he presses you, or asks you WHY you want to drive yourself, or he is being so nice to offer to pick you up why don’t you take him up on it, etc. etc. etc., you repeat “No thanks! I’ll meet everyone there!” with NO EXPLANATION OR JUSTIFICATION, as many times as you have patience for. And be careful to say you’ll meet ‘everyone’ there, not you’ll meet ‘him’ there. If he keeps it up, then just leave the conversation with a final “No thanks!”

    If you do go, and the other people are there, then have a good time chatting about BUSINESS stuff. If you go and only he is there, and no one else shows up, and he offers to buy you a drink or do other stuff that makes it start looking like a date (Can you tell I fell for this once?), you are always free to JUST EXCUSE YOURSELF AND LEAVE! “Aw, those people couldn’t make it? Too bad, I really wanted to [business stuff]. Maybe next time; gotta run!” He will probably say things like, “But you just got here! Why do you have to run off? Hey, you already planned to spend the evening here, you might as well stay!” and so forth. IGNORE ALL OF THESE. Say, “Nah, I had hoped to [meet everyone or whatever was the purported purpose of this little get-together] and that’s not happening, so I’m just gonna take off.” And, since you drove yourself, you can get up and leave. You are not obligated to stay and interact with someone who lied to you to get you into a social situation! Do you really want or need the help of someone who lies and tries to manipulate you?

    Your next contact with THIS man will probably be awkward but he caused that, not you. Be polite, test the waters with some business conversation if you like, but again be prepared to just walk away if he shows any signs of not getting over you ‘dumping’ him. You don’t owe him anything!

    Note: If he refuses to give you the address for this fantastic meet-up, so that he would HAVE to take you, well, I hope I don’t have to tell you NOT to take him up on that. But I will tell you flat out to say, “Wait, you are REFUSING to give me the information for this BUSINESS opportunity in an effort to FORCE me to go WITH you??? No thanks, to both opportunities. Bye!”

    As for the man who texted, “Hi” and nothing else, this reminded me of how we use IM where I work. We always send a “Hi” or “Good morning”, and then wait for a response. This is our equivalent to a polite knock on the door, an ‘is this a good time to talk?’ If you don’t receive a response you don’t do anything else. If you do receive a response, then you proceed with whatever you need to say. Now, I don’t know if this man was using this approach or not. But I would probably text back with something business related like “Hi! How’s it going? Were you able to do [business related thing]/get an answer for [business related question]?” Then see how he answers. If he does the asking thing, the “Aw, no thanks! Were you able to do [business related thing]/get an answer for [business related question]?” response works just as well in writing! And feel free to ignore any future texts.
    I think if you try these tactics, then the conversations won’t have a chance to devolve into the ‘Why won’t you even give me a chance?” realm, but if they do, I have one final answer. “Aw, I just come here to talk business.” Smile. Excuse yourself. Walk away.

    So to sum up:

    “Aw, no thanks!” Immediately start talking about business.

    If they persist: “No thanks!” Smile. Excuse yourself. WALK AWAY (even if it’s just to the restroom).

    “Sure, I can be there!” Immediately start talking about business.

    “Aw, no thanks! I’ll meet everyone there!” Immediately start talking about business.

    “Aw, those people couldn’t make it? Too bad, I really wanted to talk about business with them/be introduced to them/[whatever applies]. Maybe next time! Gotta run!” ***

    “Nah, I had hoped to meet everyone and that’s not happening, so I’m just gonna take off.” ***

    ***And, since you drove yourself, you HAVE THE POWER to get up and leave.

    YOUR FINAL ANSWER: “I just come here to talk business.” Smile. Excuse yourself. Walk away.

    1. Emi.*

      What’s the “aw” for? If it’s “aw, I’m so flattered” that seems like too much softening. Is it more of a plausibly-deniable “aw, it’s pathetic-cute that you thought I might say yes” so he feels a little trodden-on and slinks away, or what?

      1. Camellia*

        It’s a teeny-tiny softener, just the barest sound, before the “no thanks”. And it should be a low tone. The goal is a fast, pleasant refusal followed by an immediate return to business. If it gets into the “I’m so flattered” range, that is WAY too much “aw”, which I think would be a much higher, almost squeal-y tone, and would not meet Office Mercenary’s needs – she doesn’t want to be flattered, she wants to be left alone. If he thinks she is flattered he will continue to pursue her. And I want it to sound pleasant, not condescending/pathetic-cute, to spare her from the ‘now you’re stuck up AND conceited!” response that she quoted.

        I thought about typing “ah” instead, but didn’t want to use a sound so close to ‘uh’, which can indicate either hesitation or condescension, depending on how it’s delivered.

    2. Camellia*

      Here is Office Mercenary’s post, plus her additional reply, from last Friday’s Open Thread, to which I am replying:

      Office Mercenary:
      I’m a woman in a male-dominated field who is job hunting and trying to network as much as possible. Unfortunately, time and time again, I meet men in a professional capacity or at networking events and they attempt to hit on me or ask me out. If we discuss something related to our field, they think it’s a date. (It probably doesn’t help that I look about ten years younger than I actually am; what I would give to have resting bitch face.) These advances make me really uncomfortable and afterwards I just want to avoid these individuals, but that just means lost avenues of conversation or connections.

      For example, at a recent young professionals mixer I talked to a guy on the organizing committee who mentioned they were also planning a international delegation and asked if I would like to join. Later that evening, I sent a brief email to everyone I’d met at the event, along the lines of “It was good meeting you at [event]. Let’s keep in touch about [topic we had discussed.]” I emailed this man a brief note about the delegation and expressed interest in learning more about it. Instead of responding to the email, he waited until Friday night and texted my cell phone a single word: “Hi.” I didn’t respond, and he texted “Hi” again on Saturday night. Eventually he responded to the email and told me he’d like to introduce me to the delegation committee head over drinks that night. I tried to push for the meeting to be over coffee instead of at a bar; no response. Yesterday he texted me again: “Hi.” I’m trying to find contact info for the committee head so I can contact her directly, but in the meantime this creeper is a gatekeeper. The same week I met the first guy, someone I had just met borrowed my extra cell phone battery and walked off with it; after I tracked him down on Twitter to get it back, he offered to buy me coffee by way of apology. We had a pleasant conversation about our respective careers, during which I casually mentioned my girlfriend several times, and yet he still thought it appropriate to ask me on a date afterwards. (I’m of a generation that doesn’t use “girlfriend” to refer to platonic friends.)

      I’m so frustrated, and I really need a graceful way to turn men down without burning bridges or outing myself. Does anyone have advice on how to phrase it, particularly in cases like the first guy, who hasn’t explicitly asked me out? Or general advice about how to prevent these situations? I try to meet for coffee/lunch instead of drinks but many networking events have alcohol, so even if I don’t drink, the people around me are drinking. If I’m going to work in this field, I need to learn how to navigate male spaces without being this frustrated all the time.

      Unfortunately, there are so many weirdos in my line of work I can’t just avoid them all. In the case of the latter example above, I would have liked to keep in touch about this guy’s work, which is tangential to one of my areas of interest, but was grossed out that he would continue to hit on me despite knowing that I’m gay. This happens a lot and I can’t keep running away from uncomfortable conversations. I’m trying to think of ways to say, “I’d like this relationship strictly professional,” and move on to the topic at hand without letting them get bogged down in an argument. I’ve heard so many variations of “But why won’t you give me a chance,” “How dare you think I was hitting on you, now you’re stuck up AND conceited,” “But you don’t look gay,” “But I thought you were referring to a platonic female friend, even though no female in the northeast under the age of 50 does that anymore,” etc. I’d like to find the words to say, “Thanks, but no thanks,” whenever possible.

    4. Trix*

      I am furious with how damn necessary this information is. And that you had to get particularly well-versed.

      I feel like I have a solid handle on it, but good lord will I be rereading this over and over.

    5. Moosey*

      This is so depressing and demoralizing. For women to have to go through these mental gymnastics to not be sexually harassed. What a bummer.

    6. ..Kat..*

      Some good advice from someone who has obviously been there. Thanks for sharing.

      I had to deal with this a lot when I was younger and in a male dominated field. When I had to deal with men who wouldn’t take no, I found myself finally just walk away (and wishing that macing them was professionally acceptable).

  44. anon therapist*

    After five months of dysfunction and misery under a new boss, I finally was able to put in my notice this week! It’s a little scary since I only have a part-time job lined up and some potential (but likely) contracts to start a private practice, and am single so can’t rely on a spouse’s income or benefits, but I’m so relieved. The uncertainty is worth it because my quality of life has already increased greatly just knowing that the end is in sight, despite them seemingly trying to make my last few weeks as difficult as possible. Better things are on the horizon!

  45. Nervous Accountant*

    So, you know last week, I told yall about how I had to call a client and beg her to remove a bad review at my boss’s instruction. Things blew over, and so far so good. BUT….the next day at work, I get a text about a job opening from an acquaintance.

    Given the horrible week I was having, I really thought it was a sign from above. And for the last 7 days I really really REALLY toyed with going on an interview just to see or even passing it along to someone else. But I didn’t want to waste anyone’s time, so I declined to move forward.

    I really hope I made the right decision.

    As much as I post about my struggles, and I have bad days/moments etc, most of the time I do enjoy my job, but more than that I REALLY like the stability, routine, and experience I’ve built up so far. I still remember how horrible it felt to be jobless and desperate and wondering. I’d say it’s half of enjoying where I am now, and half of being afraid of what new job will bring. I still remember that feeling of being new and being a temp and having serious issues with coworkers, and for all the times I complain about things here, 95% of my coworkers are great (it’s also a bigger company than the experience I’ve had so far). I don’t know, maybe this is more of an emotional/psychological thing than career and I’m mingling a bunch of things together.

    The thing is, I don’t plan on staying here forever. I do think at some point in my life I will move on, but right now it’s more of an abstract than a reality. What I really really truly want is to go on maternity leave.

    I know, I’m all over the place right now but it’s been a tough, emotional last few weeks.

  46. Wolfey*

    Some advice about reaching out to companies for a summer internship would be most appreciated.

    I have a BA, worked in the legal industry, then went back to school for structural engineering a couple of years ago. I’m almost 30, it’s my second time through undergrad, and I need a summer internship. The problem is that I would like to go home to the PNW for the summer, but my regional school on the east coast doesn’t have any contacts out there so career fairs and job directories haven’t been helpful. I’ve applied to a 4-5 places through my mentor though they are more or less tangential to my field. I know I’m on my own to make contacts with structural engineering firms where I’d like to work, but I’m a little stumped by the best way to go about it. Cold calling was recently recommended to me and I wanted to get some consensus about how people would feel about being called out of the blue by an internship-hopeful applicant. If calling isn’t right, is email? (I’m afraid of being buried by work stuff). Does it matter at all that I have white-collar work experience, and if so, how do I leverage that in a quick pitch?

    It’s getting close to summer to I’m panicking a little bit since I haven’t heard back from the places I applied. I wish I’d started earlier, but it is what it is. Any advice would be wonderful! Thanks

    1. Temperance*

      I find phone calls to be incredibly intrusive, and I would be less likely to be receptive.

    2. Catabodua*

      Use email. Even if the person you email can’t help you they might be able to forward it along to someone who can.

      I would advise against calling. I’ve been on the receiving end of those types of cold calls before and I find them annoying (particularly when the caller expects you to carry the weight of the conversation).

    3. Tex*

      Do you have any contacts (friends, parent’s friends) in the construction industry out there? Architects, builders, developers, anybody in construction? They can put you in touch with the some of the smaller companies. Ask your fellow students, contact your first undergrad degree friends.

      Go to the Architecture department of your college and see if the career office/professors/department head have alumni contacts at large firms that they can share with you. (Crapshoot here because your internship experience is not a priority, but then again you’re not trying to compete for opportunities with their students.)

      Can you look up the career/structural engineering websites of big PNW structural eng colleges? See who comes to recruit over there. Or better yet, see if they have actual listings with intern contact info.

      Look up the big construction firms such as Skansa, JLL, Turner construction with a nationwide footprint.

      Still apply for east coast internships. The quality of your internship experience is more important than the right geography. You can fix the location problem when you start applying for full time jobs.

      Pay for a month on linked in with unlimited emails and cold email alumni, HR at the right companies. I would prefer a an email vs a cold call.

    4. 2horseygirls*

      What about Linked In? Who is publishing on LinkedIn in your field in the PNW? Can you search for groups on structural engineering on LinkedIn, join them, and contribute to the discussion, and make connections that way?

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I work in engineering a major EPC firm, and one of our friends recently approached me about engineering internships for another mutual acquaintance’s son. We hire our summer interns the fall before, and it’s a fairly competitive (and formal) process. The positions are on our career listings page beginning around Sept. the year before. Preferred hires are entering junior or senior years in the fall.

      However, smaller firms without such a regimented process may still have openings. I would try to find people with at least a weak connection to you and cold-email them. I am not a hiring manager, but I always answer student or entry-level inquiries like that. If your internship search fails, I would at minimum try to get a summer job related to construction. That would be a good resume builder for next year’s internship or FT job.

    6. Jennifer Walters*

      My roommate in college was an architectural engineer who wanted an internship in CA (we were in TX). She reached out to the career advisor at an engineering school in CA and asked if they might share with her any internship postings or leads. They agreed and she got an internship that summer! So, maybe try reaching out to career advisors at engineering colleges in the PNW?

  47. Heidi*

    This is a follow on to the “why you can’t get a raise” post from earlier this week.

    In 2010, I returned to a job as a contractor, in the same senior position that I’d left, after a 14-month layoff related to contractor regulations/approved agencies.

    I was rehired at less than what I’d been making in 2009, which had actually been static for the four preceding years, but I took it because I needed the job.

    I’ve now been at that same pay grade for 6 years, with increasing health insurance premiums chipping away at it, but I was able to negotiate for paid holidays and PTO (which is case by case for contractors) at year 3. Same take home pay, but I get to take a few days off instead of working year-round.

    My day to day function has changed to the point that I’m in a higher-profile/more demanding & specialized role, but that’s not recognized in the contractor pay grade hierarchy, so I have topped out at what I can be paid. The only answer is to look elsewhere, which I have actively been doing since 2015. In that time, it’s became glaringly obvious that I am grossly underpaid.

    Where it gets tricky is that my career longevity and experience seem to set the expectation that I must be ridiculously expensive, so I have found that almost every interviewer has asked me point blank, repeatedly, what I’m making now. I direct them back to the new opportunity and say that I’m negotiable on salary requirements. If pushed, I give an “opening number.”

    When I’ve been bird-dogged into a corner where they’re not getting off the current salary question and I really wanted the job, I’ve answered it [which led one interviewer to actually says out loud, “wow, that’s surprising” [true story].

    How do you make the leap to a “market rate salary” if a company is determined to gate your worth according to your current wage, and you simply cannot escape the current salary question — verbally or as a required field on an application?

    I’m looking for tangible guidance, other than “don’t give your current salary.”

    Thank you!

    1. J. F.*

      I would say, “This is what I’m paid now. I’m interviewing because, according to my research and the salaries of my professional contacts, the market rate for my position is $X. I am looking for a position where I will be fairly compensated for my level of experience and education. What is your salary range for this position?” It may turn off some interviewers (some interviewers seem to be bonkers about salaries!) but if they’re not going to meet you, well, you already have an underpaid job. (I am also female, in a science field, so I do know the cost of being assertive. But I think this is a polite way to convey your message: I want a raise, darn it.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      When asked about my salary, I just state “I’m looking to earn $X-X in this position.” Generally, everyone has been fine with that response.
      If firmly pressed, I still refuse to state my salary and I say that I’m paid below market and I’m leaving my current role because of my low salary. No one has pushed after that, and it didn’t really fluster the interviewer.

  48. Camellia*

    Second post for OFFICE MERCENARY: I also want to give you some detailed information in dealing with men who are inappropriate in ways other than just asking you out, in case that’s also an issue. There are three tactics that I accidentally learned as a child, because I was too young to understand or process the things that were said and done to me. I’ve used all three successfully as an adult.

    Tactic 1: Stare blankly. For example, an uncle kept staring at my lips and then asked me if I was wearing lipstick. When I said no, he said, “Well, your lips look reeeally good.” I literally did not know what to say so I just stared at him for a few seconds and he finally broke eye contact and never said anything again. Now, that doesn’t mean I stopped him cold with my look, it probably just meant he wasn’t the kind to be PERSISTENTLY skeevy. But I’ve found that, even as an adult, this can still work well. The trick is to keep your face blank (this is easy for me, I call it my ‘rabbit response’, to just freeze), and keep it for at least five seconds. That sounds like a short time, but count it out – one thousand and one, one thousand and two, one thousand and three, one thousand and four, one thousand and five. When it comes to eye contact with no speaking, that’s a long time. Then either introduce or reintroduce a BUSINESS topic, or just turn away, if what he said was inappropriate enough to justify it. But if he does it a second time, write him off as a REPEAT OFFENDER and walk away.

    Tactic 2: Make him repeat it. I call this “being benignly baffled”. When my Mom had me take a cup of coffee to a guest and ask if he needed cream or sugar he said yes, but I could “just stick my finger in it”. Having no idea what he was talking about, I asked, “What?” He repeated it but I still didn’t understand and asked “What?” again, in a very puzzled tone, because I was genuinely clueless. He gave up on it after that. Over time I learned to actively use this, because it’s just no fun for him if you don’t get the point of what he is saying or don’t respond in kind, plus the repeats tend to start attracting attention. The trick here is to make the “What?” sound very puzzled instead of angry, indignant, offended, etc. You are simply quite baffled at what he is trying to tell you or ask you!

    Tactic 3: Reasonable response, or as I like to call it, “confuse and defuse”. Simply treat whatever he’s said or asked as a reasonable comment or question and respond in kind. As a teen waiting tables for groups of construction workers I got the “built like a brick sh!thouse” comment a lot. My response (and this one also included a somewhat puzzled tone) – “Really? Brick? That would really hold the stink in, wouldn’t it? I mean, I’ve used a lot of outhouses in my time, but I don’t know about a BRICK one; I don’t think that would work very well.” Notice I totally ignored the “You are built like a…” part of the comment. And there was the time Mom sent me to the store to get something and it was a shelf higher than I could reach. When I asked the manager to help me he leered, “Want me to lift you up and hold you so you can get it?” I replied, “Nope, I just want you to get it down for me.” He promptly did and didn’t say a word after that.

    Another example, as an adult: A male coworker came up to me and said, “I saw you standing on the corner last night, on my way home from work. What’s a nice girl like you doing standing on the corner (again with the leer)?” So first I explained that the bus ride home dropped me off on that side of the street and so I had to cross the street to get home. Then I gave him a discourse on how economical it was to ride the bus to and from work and how robust the bus schedules were. He made a gaping fish mouth for a few seconds then wandered off without even having made a reply.

    See? Neatly done. No voices were raised; I didn’t embarrass him; and he didn’t have the opportunity to say “I was just joking! Can’t you take a joke?” The male co-worker sitting next to me said, “I thought you would take his head off for saying that!” I said, “No need to. He won’t do anything like that again.” And he didn’t; he treated me with respect during the rest of my time there.

    I think you can get similar results with these three tactics. But I reiterate – if you have a REPEAT OFFENDER, I suggest you write him off as a lost cause and don’t seek out further contact.

    Caveat: This kind of comment among friends receives a different response from me, something jokey. But in a business situation there is no leeway – you have to NOT participate in this kind of exchange if you want to have strong boundaries.

    1. Triangle Pose*

      Are your posts in response to a poster from last week’s open thread or a separate letter…or something else? You have 3 long posts here and I can’t seem to find the original letter or open thread comment you are replying to.

      1. Camellia*

        Yes, in my first comment I say it is in response to her question last Friday, but I did forget to say “in the open thread”. That would have helped! I’ll go back and elaborate. Thanks.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Numbers 2 and 3 cracked me up. These work, OM. They work. I have used them, I can vouch for them.

        When I first met my husband-to-be, we were chatting about various parts of our lives. He had a motorcycle. It was X brand. (Cue the point where I am supposed to be impressed.) So in all sincerity I said, “Oh. Is that a good brand? I guess they make okay cars? I am not much into vehicles so I really don’t know.” I used a sincere, low key voice and he took what I said at face value. I knew darn well it was a good bike, but he was acting impressed enough for the both of us, I did not need to add more.

        Later I found out I said the exact right thing. He did not want someone who was impressed with a logo. He bought the machine because he appreciated the way it was designed, not because of the company logo. He decided we were like-minded. I kept him.

    3. Hrovitnir*

      (a) You’re awesome. I really should work on these in response to things I think are gross, even if not sexual harassment-gross. (b) Ahhhhh your uncle. (c) The example about the bus in particular cracked me up.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Ha, ha, ha. Great stuff. As for situation 3, I looked like I was 12 until I was about 30. So the skeeves that hit on me had that oh-so-special pedophile skeeviness added in…

  49. Going anon again*

    I’ve gone from really liking my job to being really unhappy in the past few months. My job responsibilities keep increasing/ changing with no real pay increase or title change.

    What’s even worse is the responsibilities that are expanding are the exact kinds of things that I am trying to move away from… I am in a graduate program to improve my abilities in one aspect of my job, but they keep throwing the other things at me.

    I love my boss, but his boss keeps making promises to people and throwing me into projects that I hate. I was trying to stay here a little longer because I know that a department is being built that relates directly to my Master’s degree, but I am seriously questioning if it is worth it.

    I think I am mostly looking to vent and maybe looking for some support from internet strangers. Any advice is appreciated as well.

    1. Sugar of lead*

      Think of it this way: if you leave for another job, will you feel weight-off-your-shoulders relieved, or will you regret it and always wonder what would’ve happened if you’d stuck it out?

      1. Going anon again*

        Good question and something I will give a lot of thought to this weekend. Three months ago, it probably would have been the latter, but the past week has been so bad, I went from meh to miserable pretty quickly. There is a part of me that is hoping this feeling is temporary, but the stress has been really bad this week that I almost walked out on the spot.

    2. justsomeone*

      Have you talked to your boss about wanting to move away from those kinds of projects?

      1. Going anon again*

        I did mention it to him at the beginning of the year during my review. At the time it was more of an observation than a “this is making me miserable” conversation. Another problem that I didn’t mention earlier is that I discovered the true personality of someone I now have to work with and I don’t like her at all. I also don’t find her to be very bright, so I am forced to redo a lot of her work. Whereas in the past, this would have been tolerable, it no longer is.

        1. AMD*

          Is your direct manager reasonable and supportive enough that you could have a conversation with them about this? “My workload has been shifting recently more into teapot decorating and out of teapot structural design, and I am concerned because design is what drew me to this position. Do you know what I should expect for the next few months?” Kind of thing?

  50. TJ*

    We got an email from an applicant basically saying that it’s a disgrace that we don’t follow up with every applicant to let them know we’ve filled the position. Normally, I’d agree that that’s something companies should do. But here’s the thing.

    I work for a small company, but we’re well-known enough that we get hundreds of applicants for every position (mostly very unqualified). We don’t use an automatic system to process these applications because we only hire a few times a year, so emailing all these people would require manually copy/pasting hundreds of email addresses. We do contact people who’ve gone further in the hiring process, just not people who only submitted the initial application.

    So emailing all these people to let them know we’ve filled the position would be a lot of work for a team that’s already strapped for time. But our reputation is also really important to us. Should we make the effort to do it?

    2. Leatherwings*

      Yeah, I think you should set up a system to do this (because it’s professional and polite, not because the applicant emailed you). Figure out how to set up a mail merge or some similar system instead of doing it manually.

      You should certainly be doing this for everyone you interview (even if it’s just a phone screen), and honestly probably everyone who applies.

      1. TJ*

        We already do it for everyone we interview (or contact in any way), but not everyone who applies, because we literally get more than 400 applicants for these positions. I’ll think about the mail merge thing, though, and see if I can get my manager to agree that we should do it.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Alternately, can you include a line when you post a job ad that says “due to the high volume of applications, we will only be contacting you if we want you to come in for an interview”?

            1. Detective Amy Santiago*

              Another option would be to have all applications submitted to a specific email address only for that purpose and have an auto reply set up that says “Thank you for submitting your application to be a Teapot Painter! We will review your application and contact you if we would like to discuss this opportunity further.” Or something along those lines.

        2. Buu*

          Auto response telling them it’s been received and then a date after which they can assume if they haven’t heard they’ve been rejected e.g:

          “Thank you for applying to Teapots Ltd, we can confirm we have received your application. We will review all applications after [date] and will invite successful applications for interviews between [date] and [date]. We regret to inform you that we will only be able to write back to applicants who have made it through to the first round.”

      1. TJ*

        We’ll typically end up contacting about a dozen of the people who applied, and even if we don’t interview them, we do let those people know when the position is filled.

    4. Perpetua*

      If you have enough flexibility to introduce new processes, I’d recommend you start using an ATS.

      There are many of them available, starting from around 25 dollars / month, for 1 job posting (I can give you suggestions if you’d like, I’ve tried 2-3 of them). You can use them just when you have positions available and pay only what you use, so that seems like a really small investment for something that might give at least a little boost for your reputation (also, it’s definitely kind and appreciated from the candidate’s viewpoint).

      Basically all of them have bulk email options, so it’s really a matter of just a few clicks and a few minutes to follow up with as many candidates as you need. Putting a line about contacting only the selected candidates is better than leaving them hanging altogether, but I think that it’s really good practice for companies to contact all candidates, if it’s at all possible.

    5. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      You should respond to every applicant. Not to protect your reputation, but because it’s the right thing to do.

      Cutting-and-pasting each applicant’s email address and sending a mail-merge “Thanks for applying” email, even if there are 400 applicants, only takes a few minutes. It’s not beyond your capacity. Just do it.

    6. Bonky*

      It really doesn’t take long. We do this for all our positions (and we get hundreds and sometimes thousands of applicants for each one). It’s largely because those of us who get to set policy remember being in the applicant’s position; and, as you say, it’s a reputational thing. Don’t do it because you got a snarky email from a failed candidate: do it because it’s the right thing to do. (Your post makes me think you’re already thinking that way!)

      I really think you’re overestimating how long it’ll take to send a short form email to everybody. If you’re clever about it you can even automate it with a Python script or just by setting up a mail rule.

    7. Undine*

      I have almost never heard from anyone that they’ve filled the position, unless I’ve gotten an interview. This guy just has too much gumption. They’re hoping that calling you will make them stand out from the pack.

    8. Jerry Vandesic*

      Replying to candidates is part of the hiring process, so either do what’s required or maybe hold off on hiring until the company is able to do its job.

    9. AshK434*

      I agree with the candidate, and I’m surprised no one has mentioned this but this is why mail merge exists.

  51. BigSigh*

    I’m torn and would like your insights, please!

    We have a high performer in our office. Gets a lot of those perks that come with doing well—showing up 20-40 late, looooong lunches, calls out frequently. But she’s always hit her goals so she was untouchable.

    I personally thought it was fine—annoying, but fine. She’s doing a good job. Don’t micromanage.

    BUT a worrying pattern has become apparent. She has a problem with all the men in the office, save the office manager. Literally every single one.

    In the past year and a half, it’s become a process of her hating a male coworker, complaining about him at length to the person’s boss (and her own, the CEO), while never bringing it up to the coworker. Eventually the person will be reprimanded for having a bad attitude/being rude/invading her personal space/stealing her ideas, etc., until they quit or stop speaking in the office entirely.

    Right now, it’s gotten around the office that she’s keeping a list of all the things she feels wrong about 2 men. Any time they say something she doesn’t like, whether to her or someone else, it’s added to the list. End up in the office kitchen at the same time as her, it’s on the list as following her. One guy made a comment that my sunny personality would enable us to get enough visitors at a conference that we didn’t need to have swag, and she went to the CEO saying he was sexualizing me—whereas I thought the comment awkward but not meant like that in the least. I always let it go before because the people were somewhat annoying or socially awkward. But now she’s gunning for a new employee who every man and woman, but her, agrees is amazing, and it kind of sounds like the reason she’s having trouble communicating with him is more based on his accent…

    Two questions I have. While I am completely in favor of lists, shouldn’t you speak to the person you’re clashing with first before gathering evidence to push for them to be fired? Also, if someone clashes with coworkers constantly, doesn’t that have an effect on how a person’s overall performance is viewed?

    1. Allypopx*

      Are you this person’s manager? If so this is definitely something you need to address. She needs to work on soft skills like conflict resolution and teamwork. This sounds hugely demoralizing for those who have to work with her and shows a lack of maturity and professionalism, which yes should reflect poorly on her.

    2. Mazzy*

      I think your last questions are being too generous. Why is she keeping lists of such banal things and why are you ok with it? Sounds like she wants to have control over hiring i.e. Getting to pick who works there and since that is not feasible this is her way to ty to get that control

      1. NarrowDoorways*

        Funny you should say that. One of the people she’s making a list about was someone she recommended we not hire. He’s on the same level are her, but then so was the string of men in that position we’ve had to replace.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Wait. There’s been a string of men in that position? Does that have anything to do with her?

    3. Dr. KMnO4*

      Your second question made me think of a saying I’ve seen often that I will paraphrase…
      If one person of many you interact with today is a jerk, maybe the problem is that they are a jerk.
      If ALL (or almost all) of the people you interact with today are jerks, maybe the problem is that YOU are a jerk.

      With the employee you are writing about, it seems that the common denominator is her. From your given examples it doesn’t seem like the male employees are doing anything egregious. I also find her reporting of things male employees said in conversations with other people (aka not her) really petty. She should be minding her own business, unless the comments are way worse than you’ve indicated (like, EXTREMELY misogynistic or something). Plus, reporting that someone happened to be in the office kitchen at the same time as her? That’s probably not him following her, she needs to chill.

      I would say that her manager needs to have a conversation with her because her behavior is inappropriate. It should affect how her overall performance is viewed because soft skills are important in the workplace too.

    4. Mephyle*

      Who reprimanded the men she has been targeting? It sounds like there is enough public knowledge around the office about her personal spite “projects” that the person who had been issuing these reprimands should be aware of what she is doing or should be made aware. At this point that person should not be acting solely on her reports to reprimand her targeted victims any more.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      If you’re her manager, you need to nip this in the bud. Not only is it bad for morale, but if she’s targeting men, it’s sexist as hell. That is a liability to you.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      She sounds like she is the office bully. And management condones it.

      With her taking so much time off like that I guess I would be checking her numbers to see if she is actually meeting goals, if I were her boss.
      As far as all the complaints, I would tell her, “You’re never here. So these things do not matter.”

      It’s not good in my books. But plenty of places will protect their high performer and that person bullies everyone. It’s all okay with management.

    7. Troutwaxer*

      I’m a little unclear from the text as to whether you’re her manager or not. If you are her manager it is time for the “come to Jesus” talk, which should take place immediately after you have spoken to your own manager, because you might just become the next target. If she doesn’t “come to Jesus” its time to fire her, because I guarantee that her behavior, plus your unwillingness to rein her in is causing serious damage to morale.

      If you aren’t her manager, I think it depends how much support you can get from someone above her. If you can tell someone that she’s a serial attacker of coworkers and get a fair hearing you should probably say something. Otherwise you may just have to live with it.

  52. Camellia*

    Now some random thoughts for OFFICE MERCENARY. These are opinions and suggestions garnered from my and from my daughter’s experiences that I hope might be helpful.

    Stop lending complete strangers important things like your cell phone battery. Practice saying out loud, “Sorry, I can’t help.” Complete sentence, no explanations or justifications needed.

    NEVER say, “I’d like to keep this relationship strictly professional,” or any variation. First, use complete sentences like I’ve illustrated in my other comments above, with no explanations or justifications, and you won’t need to say it. Second, it simply begs the man to respond with something like, “Are you saying I have to pay you for it?” [insert leer here] or, as you quoted, “How dare you think I was hitting on you, now you’re stuck up AND conceited!”

    Don’t talk about personal stuff. Period. You can make plenty of pleasant conversation about business matters. Business people don’t need to know if you are gay or straight, in a relationship or not, etc. Some people say it’s okay to talk about your hobby, but to me that only gives them the opportunity to try to get together for some personal time spent on said hobby. Why even open that door? Some people say it’s okay to talk about THEIR personal stuff. That’s fine, as long as you don’t make any replies that, again, open the door for personal approaches. Only after I’ve known or worked with someone long enough to establish firm boundaries do I start sharing any personal stuff.

    Like you, my daughter also looks about 10 years younger than she is and when she graduated she came to me dressed in her best interview outfit, makeup and all, and asked me what she could change to look more adult and professional. (I was both dumbfounded and flattered!) So I will share some things I told her. Dress as professionally as the situation allows; looks do influence how people think of us. A sharp business suit is a great suit of armor. And keep the jacket on; if you remove the suit jacket you are just a ‘girl’ in slacks or skirt. If a full-on suit would be over-dressing for your profession, at least add a completer piece like a very nice cardigan or a more relaxed jacket – no hoodies please – and keep it on. Choose business-like colors like black, brown, and navy. No cleavage. Shoes with rounded toes look less adult, and so can a lower heel and ankle straps. You can’t go too wrong with a classic pump with a 2-3 inch heel. Very tiny bags tend to look less adult and huge relaxed bags can look sloppy; choose a trim, professional looking bag.

    So that’s it. I hope some of this stuff was helpful.

    1. Sugar of lead*

      I’m glad there’s someone else who thinks it’s okay to keep your personal life personal. In my industry we have a lot of down time, and there’s a lot of small talk. I’ve never felt comfortable answering what neighborhood I live in or whether I have family in the area or what my career aspirations are. One coworker even asked me if I was on the spectrum–I’m pretty sure there are rules against that. I love talking shop, of course, or exchanging work stories, but some things I keep to myself.

      1. Triangle Pose*

        What rules? Why would there be a rule against your coworker asking you if you are on the spectrum? I have to say, asking what neighborhood you live in or if you have family in this are are truly just conversastional questions, they are not an intrusive or inappropriate question. Not responding to these would read very oddly at every place I’ve ever worked.

        1. Camellia*

          In my professional experience, these questions are not and should not be asked. You can volunteer your own information, thereby providing an opening for the other person to share their’s, but you don’t outright ask.

          And asking for medical information is an even bigger no-no. Managers, I think, are not allowed to ask, and that has become the norm for just about everyone. These people are your co-workers, not your friends or family.

          1. Triangle Pose*

            It read to me like Sugar was talking about an written rule, like in an HR handbook or a law. Like Alison often says when discussing hiring, there are no “illegal interview quesitons” it’s just that hiring manager cannot make can’t hiring decisions based on the answers to certain questions and so good hiring people don’t bother asking those questions. It sounds like you are talking about social or workplace norms – it’s true that I wouldn’t outright ask a coworker if she was on the Autism spectrum. However, it’s pretty odd to refuse to answer conversational questions like “What neighborhood do you live in?” or “do you have family in the area?” when chatting with coworkers. Small talk and conversational questions like these are just as much a workplace norm.

        2. PollyQ*

          I think asking about health conditions/disabilities may be against the ADA? At least in job interviews?

      2. Hiker 1546*

        Sports. Men talk about sports so they don’t need to talk about their personal life. I wasn’t into professional sports before getting out in the work world, but knowing about what is going on with the local sports teams (or college teams if there aren’t pro teams in your area) is a great thing for small talk that doesn’t get into a personal area.

    2. Tau*

      Dress as professionally as the situation allows; looks do influence how people think of us. A sharp business suit is a great suit of armor. And keep the jacket on; if you remove the suit jacket you are just a ‘girl’ in slacks or skirt. If a full-on suit would be over-dressing for your profession, at least add a completer piece like a very nice cardigan or a more relaxed jacket – no hoodies please – and keep it on.

      I’d be cautious about this depending on what industry you’re in, especially as OM said she was in a male-dominated industry. I’m in tech which definitely qualifies on that front, and our clothing norms are different. Dressing in the way you describe in certain environments would be an excellent way to signal that you are a Cultural Interloper (TM) who is Not Really A Techie, and that’s something that women tend to be hit with more than men anyway and can be very bad for your career. You do mention going to cardigans/relaxed jackets depending on profession but honestly I’m wondering if even that would be enough to tip the scales.

      1. Camellia*

        These are some good points, which is why I said “as the situation allows”. I’m in IT and our office is casual: jeans, athletic shoes, and so forth. However, the men are used to seeing us in sweaters or light jackets because the temperature in many business, be they offices or bars, are too cold for women, so perhaps OM could do the same.

  53. Anon this time*

    I’m supposedly the top candidate for a promotion for a role that’s needed but appears to be crafted specifically for me. I know how our internal bureaucracy is on hiring, so the fact that I haven’t been officially told anything in itself isn’t stressful. But my mom – bless her heart – has been asking me CONSTANTLY about if I’ve heard yet, and that’s stressing me out. Honestly, at this point I just want to know (officially) so she’ll get off of my back!

    1. SophieChotek*

      I hear you on this. Hope you find out soon.
      (I’ve had to quit telling my mother similar things…because then I never hear the end of it.)

      1. Anon this time*

        Yup. Husband has been great. “Why are you stressed? Is there anything you can do about it?” And I realized, I was stressed because of her, not because I didn’t know. I know she means well, but …

  54. Another Lauren*

    I know there are a few museum employees out there, so just asking — is anyone going to AAM this year? (For non-museum people, it’s a ginormous annual museum conference.) I’ve never been, so curious to see what it’s like.

    1. Allypopx*

      I’m not going this year, but I have a lot of coworkers who look at AAM and NEMA the way that my more typical nerd friends look at PAX and SDCC. I hope to make it at some point.

    2. Dizzy Steinway*

      I initially thought you meant AAM as in this blog.

      And now I want there to be an AAM conference/convention. How cool would that be?!

    3. Megan*

      I’m not. I’ve been to a couple in the past, and I find AAM a bit too ginormous to navigate. Also, it tends to be filled with Director-level employees (which I am not), so I find it less useful for networking purposes. I much prefer the state or regional conferences.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      It’s never a good sign when you are non-ironically claiming to be in a silent majority.

    3. Notorious MCG*

      I have what I call “Is this Guy An Asshole?” test, and that guy definitely TESTS POSITIVE FOR 100% BEING AN ASSHOLE

    4. Notorious MCG*

      Also, can we talk about how he is complaining about a lack of productivity and then boasting that they have a full bar and XBox in the office?

      1. zora*

        that’s one of the things I hate the most about the tech/startup sector. They brag about these ‘perks’ but then also expect you to put in a full 60+ hours of work no exceptions. So, it’s really this insidious thing that reinforces bro culture, because if you don’t want to put in 60+ hours and then WANT to hang out for another 3-4 hours at night to drink free alcohol and play video games, then you just don’t ‘fit in’ to their ‘culture.’

        Same thing with the ‘google’ buses for commuting in the bay area, the reason they are so ‘generous’ to provide cozy buses with wifi is because of the unspoken expectation that you will spend your 1-2 hour commute each way doing work, on top of your 8-9 hours in the office. Although, recently I hear it’s become less unspoken and more spoken. So that’s something, then.

    5. Liane*

      I read the whole silly thing. The guy also bragged about many companies have asked how they can do the same thing. I wished, he’d listed them. Make job searches easier.

      And for the record, the whole place sounds like it’s run by extra-special-snowflakes.

      1. Bonky*

        >And for the record, the whole place sounds like it’s run by extra-special-snowflakes.

        It really, really does, doesn’t it! At least he’s providing a nice red organisational culture flag so everybody can avoid applying for jobs there.

    7. GirlwithaPearl*

      I refuse to give web traffic to lifezette which is a well known fake news site. Can someone summarize?

    8. ..Kat..*

      He is in his own way, a special snowflake about his own special beliefs.

      Guns and booze. Excellent combination. Is one of his company’s special, on-site amenities paramedics?

  56. Anon for This*

    How do you keep yourself happy and engaged when you feel stuck? I’m a crucial part of a small team and I am taking on a lot of new projects, but I’m having a really hard time putting in the energy I used to. I’m so ready for a new job after 5 years at this one, but for a variety of reasons I see myself needing to stay here for another 3-4 years. This is hugely demotivating even though I like my community, boss, benefits, general job structure. How do I refocus and adjust perspective?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Start job hunting.
      Seriously. I know that is not the answer you wanted. If you are going carefully and considering each job carefully, how long will a good job search take? A year? Two years?

      Most reasons are illusions. This has been an expensive lesson in my life. If we went over the reasons why I stayed too long, we’d probably end up agreeing they were not strong reasons. Hindsight is 20/20. Picture yourself five years from now, what does the future you think of these reasons you have now.

      You are asking about being happy and engaged… because you aren’t? then you are talking about lack of energy, then comes the word demotivating.

      You know a being who does not have a plan for the future can have all these symptoms you are showing here. Take away a person’s plan for tomorrow/next month/next year and you are going to see a shell of a human being.

      So if you are determined to stay for the next few years, then build yourself a calendar on your computer at home. It should go from 2017 to 2021. Start out by using quarters- 3 month blocks. Write in your goals for each 3 month period. The year 2020 might be easier than now. For the first quarter 2020 you can write begin job search. Sit with your goal calendar once a week. Check off completed goals and fill in the details (steps) of longer term goals.
      You want two things, your long term goal of leaving. And your short term goal of using this time wisely. So you are going to be thinking about “how can get the best personal use of the next four years?” These shorter things become your goals for this time frame.

  57. Teflon (today)*

    WHY WHY WHY do recruiters or HR people contact people who are absolutely NOT a match for the job they’re hiring for? I updated my stuff on MajorJobEngine and now I’m being emailed by people who want me to sell insurance, work in HR, be an admin, and other things that are FAR, FAR from my presented career description. Emails I ignore (honestly, has anyone NOT been contacted by Aflac etc?) but people call too! If you’re going to call someone, at least read their description/LinkedIn/resume! Why are they wasting their time?
    End Rant.

    1. Kinsley M.*

      This is why I took my information off MajorJobEngines. I’ve never, ever been contacted by anyone actually wanting to hire me for something I wanted. It was always insurance or sales. The one I got more than anything was offers for CDL truck driving. I work in HR and once worked HR at a trucking company. I’d get emails/calls all the time that they “looked at my resume and I’d be perfect for -job offer driving trucks-.” I got so sick of it that I actually told someone once that they clearly hadn’t read my resume because if they had, they’d have seen I’d never driven a truck in my life and did not have, nor did not want to get a CDL license.

      Honestly, my advice is just take your information off the site and apply to jobs you want.

    2. Nicole*

      Don’t put your phone number on your resume if you’re putting it one one of those big websites. Just your email address. Makes life easier.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t know. Friends and family do the same thing–“Have you thought about [insert thing I’m neither interested in nor remotely qualified for here]?” I think the companies on the boards are just trolling for resumes, though.

    4. Naomi*

      I suspect they’re auto-spamming based on keywords.

      For example, today my job-hunting roommate got an e-mail trying to recruit him as a beauty school instructor. He’s an electrical engineer. His theory was that they picked up on him using the word “instructor” somewhere in his job search materials.

  58. Anonnymouse*

    I sent in a few applications for jobs with non-profits. All support causes that I am definitely behind but the problem is that I haven’t been very active in supporting that cause lately. My cover letters say that I’m a supporter of the non-profit but a friend reading over my application expressed worry because how can I say I support it? I haven’t been able to be active in attending events or volunteering in a while for various reasons (my own job, family things, job searching itself, and more have left me with little free time that volunteering has taken a major backseat). I don’t have any recent active support, aside from monetary donations and signing petitions they announce.

    So when applying to non-profits where you haven’t been very active but still support it, what can you say when they ask how you show your support?

    1. Leatherwings*

      I’d think about things like following them on social media, regularly reading their blog, donating, purchasing merchandise, and signing up for their mailing list.

      1. Allypopx*

        All this, plus I’d throw in “I’m very sad to say I haven’t had as much time lately to volunteer, but I’m still providing support where I can and was very excited to see _____” (reference some work they were doing in reference to a petition you signed to show you’re staying involved with their current events). You can say you hope to get back to volunteering when things settle down, or that you greatly enjoyed an event you volunteered at in the past and talk about it. All those things are still support.

    2. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

      You could frame it more as something your passionate about and in the past you’ve done x,y and z to support. For example, my last job was at a homeless shelter and I was currently working at a food bank style org. I framed it that my current job and my previous volunteer experience with the homeless gave me a perspective of why programs like the ones I would be supporting were critical.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      As someone who spent my whole career in nonprofits, I can’t think of a time I’ve been asked how I show my support or seen other people asked that. They want to know you’re committed to their objectives, yes, but I wouldn’t worry that you can’t provide proof. They’re going to take your word for it that you support their work.

    4. amysee*

      Nonprofit manager here. What I look for in cover letters is as follows:
      -Using the right terminology (i.e. “your organization” rather than “your company”), showing me you understand you’re applying to work at a nonprofit vs. other type of entity and/or that you’ve read and understood our website
      -A sentence or two re: why you care about the issue the nonprofit addresses
      -Something that indicates you understand the specific way the nonprofit addresses that issue (i.e., there’s a big difference between advocating for children’s health and actually providing that care, and I want to see that you understand the distinction as it applies to my organization)

      But I wouldn’t look for evidence of “support”– like I’m not going to check your social media to make sure you’re following us.

    5. Jillociraptor*

      I’ve never seen a candidate asked something like that either. I did often ask candidates to share what they know about the mission and current events surrounding the organization’s work. I suspect this is more likely what you’ll get — do you understand the issue(s) the organization works on, and have a basic understanding of the context of those issues.

    6. Jaydee*

      Most non-profits want you to have some level of commitment to their mission, but that doesn’t have to mean you’ve volunteered with them or donated to them in the past. Maybe you’ve worked at other non-profits with similar missions or client bases before. Maybe you’ve worked in a similar field in the private sector and want to use that experience to help a non-profit organization. In a cover letter, you should be focusing on what it is about the organization that interests you and what it is about your background that would make you a good fit for the organization and the role. If you’ve volunteered extensively for the organization, then you might reference that when you explain why you are interested in the role. If you’ve mostly donated money and/or signed petitions, I think a general statement that you are a supporter of the organization is fine. Otherwise I think it can look like you expect those things to be more heavily weighted in your favor than they should be. Donating money and signing petitions shows your support for their organization and their mission, but it doesn’t say anything about whether you would be a good employee.

    7. Dizzy Steinway*

      I work for a non profit. We don’t need you to have donated money. Just to show understanding of what we do and why.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Change your wording.

      “I have been a big believer in your cause for a long time.”

      “I noticed your organization many years ago and I have been very impressed with your work.”

  59. Eric*

    What’s the deal with companies that expect you to do an intensive pre-interview test before they’ll even talk to you? I understand that they want to screen out people who lack any of the skills needed for the job. And I’m okay with a short test, like one that they expect to take 2-3 hours (i.e. an evening), but there has been a trend in my industry for companies branding themselves as “mean and lean startups” or whatever to give out these week long assignments, which aren’t even for very high ranking roles.

    When I hear the company’s HR or recruiting talk about how they only hire the best and brightest, and they have a pre-interview that should take a week or two, I’m completely turned off of working there. What’s the best way of turning them down?

    1. Elizabeth West*

      I’m very suspicious of long assignments–it feels to me like they’re soliciting free work. That’s what portfolios are for. I would say, “I’m sorry, but I don’t feel comfortable with this. If you’d like to look at my portfolio, I can provide it (a link).” Who knows, if enough people turn them down maybe they’ll stop doing it.

      1. Eric*

        I actually have a portfolio, but the attitude that hiring companies take to that is often “we can’t be sure that you didn’t get that from someone else.” In tech, some of them really obviously are attempts to get the candidate to work for free, but some seem genuine enough, in that they’re sufficiently open-ended that the company’s not likely to receive any material that can easily be repurposed for their product.

        One reason it really bugs me is that it’s a really lazy way to off-load the risk involved in hiring to the candidate. With American employment laws, hiring and accepting a job is much lower risk for the company in most situations.

        What I have thought of saying is “With the other interviews I’m doing plus my other commitments, I really can’t dedicate any time for this, but thank you for your time.” What I actually do when I talk to a recruiter or send my resume to someone, and in response, get a big spec for a program the company wants me to write, is just ignore it — it comes off as really rude to me.

    2. LaterKate*

      Honestly, I think even a 2-3 hour test is pretty egregious if it’s happening before the interview. I’m sure it varies by industry, but I would be unlikely to spend more than an hour on a project/test for a company that I had not interviewed with yet. I think a short screening may be fine, but if I’m going to spend a chunk of several hours working on something, I want to have had an interview and know that I am still interested in the job first.

      1. JHunz*

        Not only that, but at least in tech you can tell whether someone is a total incompetent who needs to be weeded in about half an hour. A pre-interview screen lasting longer than an hour is not likely to be significantly more productive than the one that takes less. It’s a waste of everyone’s time

  60. Name (Required)*

    This fall my boss told me that i do not qualify for short term disability payments while I am out of work for the birth of my child because i work only part time. She said that she confirmed this with H.R.
    She is not out of work for a few weeks and im due anytime now so i called HR to see if i had to fill out any paper work for them of if boss had done it all already. HR said they had no idea i was preg, that i do qualify for STD payments and gave me a number to call.
    I called a coworker who is also part time who i knew came back to work like 3 months ago from having her baby because i wasn’t sure if she could get some sort of back pay or something because she too should have qualified..Boss gave her the number to call and she was payed while out on leave. Boss just lied because she hates me, i need a new job.

    1. Bolt*

      I would speak with your boss when you get back – there is a chance that she was mistaken and lied about HR because she didn’t want to be bothered/was so certain she was right.

      I would also ask HR for a copy of what she filled out to see if she pointedly avoided telling them that you were pregnant.

      1. Name (Required)*

        she couldn’t have been mistaken she had a staff with the same job, same hours, same everything as me who was receiving the benefits she told me i wasnt qualified for and she had given that lady the info. it wasnt a mistake. she filled nothing at all with HR

          1. Buu*

            I’d be tempted to talk to HR, this could be discrimination based on your pregnancy. ie is she resentful two people in his dept have had babies?

  61. Fortitude Jones*

    I’m done with my job. I’ve officially hit my breaking point and have decided to leave my company altogether after a little over three years because these people are on some straight bull. Two or three weeks ago, we had a division meeting where the higher-ups kept bragging about how we were called out by the company’s CEOs at the yearly manager’s meeting for being great, how much money we made last year, and how we’re the fourth highest grossing division out of a 30+ division company. Yet, when raise time came around this week, they had the nerve to screw us.

    My supervisor and I had what was supposed to be a bi-monthly check-in and salary review discussion, and then she told me I was getting a 3% merit increase. First of all, 3% is not a merit increase, it’s a cost of living adjustment, so I wish companies would stop with that nonsense. Second of all, she goes into detail about how others in the division barely got a 2% increase (some got less than 1) because, “We didn’t have any money left in the budget.” Really? So then where did all that money y’all were just bragging about go? She tried to tell me that because our company adjusted the pay scales back in November and some people fell out of range, they had to get those people back up into the range. Okay, fine – but I was one of those people that fell below where I should be in my range given the quality of my work, years of experience in our niche market, and my accomplishments. So how the hell they justified a measly 3% for me, which still didn’t get me back up to where I was in the band prior to the quintile adjustment, is beyond me.

    She then gave me the floor since the employees are the ones who are supposed to be leading our check-ins, but I had nothing to say except to reiterate to her that, per our check-in discussion in January, I’m still planning on leaving this year. This whole conversation took less than five minutes, and I went back to work.

    This is what having no more effs to give at work looks like, folks. I applied for another job at another company that night, and now I’m playing the waiting game again *sigh*. I really need my book sales to take off so I can quit this garbage corporate life. These people play too much.

    1. NW Mossy*

      While it’s certainly fine to leave if you’re feeling underappreciated (or for any other reason), but one thing to bear in mind is that at big firms, merit budgets are typically tied to overall enterprise results more than they are to the results of a specific division. It’s entirely possible for it to be true that your division did very well but that there are also very small merit budgets because other divisions did poorly and tanked the enterprise results. This happens often at my org, because our two main divisions tend to be counter-cyclical.

      From the manager’s point of view, if she gets 3% of her employees’ pay to allocate among them, that’s just not that much. For a team of ten employees each making $50,000/year, the boss got $15,000 total to hand out. Giving one person a 10% raise (probably about what you were expecting) is 1/3 of the total budget. Thus, the choice – you pick your most critical problems to solve (such as bringing up those who are way out of range) and then do what you can with the leftovers. Bosses generally know that people find small raises insulting, but they also know that people hate getting 0% even more.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        but one thing to bear in mind is that at big firms, merit budgets are typically tied to overall enterprise results more than they are to the results of a specific division.

        Our entire company exceeded the industry goal for last year. Yeah, there were a handful of divisions that didn’t do so well, but overall, our company outpaced much of our competition financially. So they have no excuse for this, especially when our division president has always done whatever he wanted with merit increases and bonuses in the past. Oh – and we just got an email that they’ve promoted someone in our division who does less work than the rest of us. He’s now at my level and is out-earning me when I have more experience and better achievements. Yup. I’m done.

        But yes, there were other reasons I was planning on leaving anyway (e.g. I hate our insureds, I hate the agents, and I hate our insured’s customers). This situation just made me realize I can do better and earn more elsewhere. Wage stagnation is real and my student loan bills need to be paid.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Whatever the reason it’s epidemic.
      A company around here is very flush with cash. They pull in a fantastic annual income.

      Because they were doing well, they gave their hourly workers a raise. They gave them twenty five cents an hour more.
      They put an article in the newspaper about the across the board increase.

      The community laughter was deafening. I have no clue why corporate did not hear it. The employees were humiliated by the article in the paper and the public razzing that ensured. “Going to get that Mercedes with your new big raise???”
      ugh.
      Did I mention this company makes BILLIONS of dollars per year.

  62. AmazonPrime*

    I have an office gift dilemma! I know gifts flow downwards, but what about when people are effectively peers?

    A manager at the same level (Joffrey) has recently had some huge issues getting projects complete, to the point that it was affecting sales and customers. I was asked by our VP to step in and help out, which I am doing (even though it is really hurting my own workload). Joffrey and I have a professional, cordial relationship but that’s as far as it goes. I don’t dislike him but have the sense that he feels a little threatened by me (if it helps I’m a woman).

    Anyway, I got an email out of the blue stating “Joffrey has sent you a gift card” which isn’t necessary and makes me feel very uncomfortable. Part of it is that our relationship isn’t particularly warm and part of it is that we are peers. I thanked him and said I couldn’t accept it but was grateful for the thought and that it was very kind of him.

    Am I being rude? Weird? Overthinking it? I don’t know why it squicks me out so much. If he had said “hey thanks for all the help, can I take you to a nice lunch?” I would not feel the same way. Any thoughts or comments are appreciated!

    1. Notorious MCG*

      No, it’s weird that A. He sent it online and didn’t give you a heads-up or ask you about it B. Gift cards are like cash. It’s like he’s paying you for doing part of his job, and that’s squicky and C. That’s just really out of the norm in terms of professional gifts. Treating you to a lunch, a nice card saying thanks, a basket of sweets, etc. are all better choices on his part.

      1. Emi.*

        It’s so weird my first thought was that it was probably a phishing scam, but if you thanked him and he knew what you were talking about, it’s just really really weird.

      2. AmazonPrime*

        You really nailed it here – I think this is exactly why it’s making me so uncomfortable!

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Yeah, that’s inappropriate. You were doing your job, and he was doing his. I think you were right to decline it!

    3. Buu*

      Feels like a power thing to me, you’ve been asked to step in and fix the problems he’s caused. He’s sending a gift card to try and rebalance power, so it’s more of something you’re doing for him.

    4. Dizzy Steinway*

      When your gut says something is weird – listen to that. I think you did the right thing turning it down.

    5. Chriama*

      I would say it really depends. We have a recognition system at my office where you can send people “credits” which they can turn around and redeem for all sorts of merchandise (gift cards, electronics, travel vouchers, etc). I’ve also gotten flowers and thank you cards from people outside of that official recognition system. And there have been times where I’ve had a contentious conversation with someone or told them “no, you can’t do this thing that would make your life easier” and they respond by sending me credits. So overall, I think it’s not unusual to receive a thank you for helping someone out , and sometimes they use it to say “let’s bury the hatchet”. But you know your situation best – if your relationship has been really uncomfortable or something seems ‘off’ about his gift for whatever reason, don’t feel obligated to accept it. Your response was totally professional.

  63. Need to graduate*

    I am a graduate student in a lab and the lab recently got new space on another floor. We were overcrowded, so this is a good thing. However, the current plan is to move all the graduate students to the new space and no one else. We would be on a different floor than our adviser and most of the equipment we need to use. This move will also limit out interactions with technicians, post-docs and senior scientists (since they will all be staying in the current space). It feels like they are sending a clear signal that our research is less important and that we should bear the brunt of the inconvenience. I have not heard anything about this from my adviser but we have had conversations with a senior administrator for the lab about the move (so it’s not just a rumor). Am I over-reacting to feel devalued by the move? How should I bring this up with my adviser?

    1. Dr. KMnO4*

      I don’t know that they are intending to signal that your research is less important. I think they might want to keep the grad students together for a lot of reasons- similar projects, classes, responsibilities, social factors. I mean, you probably have more in common with your fellow grad students than you do the post-docs and senior scientists. Also, if your field is anything like mine, grad students are around for a shorter period of time than senior scientists. So they may also be limiting the turnover in any one area of the lab.

      Being a STEM PhD myself, I don’t mean to be rude when I say this, but…your research might be less important than that of the postdocs and senior scientists. I don’t think that’s the reason they are only moving grad students, but while your dissertation/thesis research is the most important thing to you, it’s probably a smaller piece of the overall picture of the lab. My husband’s lab (he’s a STEM grad student right now) has senior scientists that work on a contract that brings in $$$$$$ to the lab, which helps fund my husband’s research. So that senior scientist has more access to the lab equipment and gets first pick of instrument time because what the senior scientist does is one of the most important things that happens in the lab. My husband gets overnight hours and weekends because he’s a grad student. It’s the hierarchy.

      1. Ultraviolet*

        I tend to agree that it’s the hierarchy. But instead of thinking of it as your research being less valuable, maybe think of it as your time being less valuable than the more senior people’s. (I realize that’s not entirely reassuring.) It’s just not efficient for the more highly-paid people to be running back and forth between the new lab and the one where the main equipment is. Or even spending it on the lab move itself. It’s analogous to the many conversations here about why VPs don’t spend their working time arranging their own travel or whatever. It’s possibly also a bigger inconvenience for them to change phone numbers, though admittedly that’s not a huge issue.

        Also, if they are directly bringing in grants, that gives them a little more stake in having things set up in a convenient way for them.

        I understand why it stings a little though. Grad students are encouraged to act as colleagues to postdocs/faculty/etc, and those moments when the status difference is invoked can be jarring.

        I really urge you not to bring this up with your adviser from the “devalued” perspective. It might be worth talking about how you’ll deal with being so far from some equipment, and about the loss of interaction with the other lab members.

    2. Thursday Next*

      Probably; space is always at a premium in a university. I’m a grad student in a STEM field and due to new faculty hires ~9 grad students and post docs, myself included, are going to lose their current office space for one new faculty office. I have no idea where they’re going to put us. It’s not uncommon for grad students to have an office space that’s not adjacent to their lab space. My lab has the main lab and about 4 satellite lab spaces due to space constraints and equipment needs and peoples desk spaces are spread across an entire floor. It happens.
      Anyway, are you doing a lot of lab work now? If so the location of your desk shouldn’t matter that much. Do you have a shared kitchen space or lunch area? Eat lunch there to have a better chance of interacting with people.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      I agree with others that this sounds like a completely normal arrangement. It’s not that you’re devalued, it’s that you’re the most junior people in the hierarchy, and the most junior people tend to get the less desirable space. Plus, it’s generally easier to move one category of people (ie, all the grad students), than to decide which faculty get moved to the new floor and which don’t.

      One thing I would suggest, when the move occurs, is to address the issue from the point of view of how to maintain good connections with the rest of the department, so the students don’t get forgotten about when they’re out of sight.

  64. BenAdminGeek*

    Wondering if something I did recently was a bad idea. My company is in the midst of a reorganization, and it’s unclear if I’ll continue reporting to the same manager. We’d all still be on the same larger team, but I might roll up under someone else. I am worried about this, as my current manager has been my best manager ever. She holds me accountable, provides career advice, defends me when I need it, and pushes me to work better every day and develop my skillset. I’ve had a lot of bosses over the years, and she’s far and away the best. I have a fairly good working relationship with our director, so I reached out to reiterate why I love working for my boss, and that it was likely to be a big dissatisfier if I was moved. I clarified that I wasn’t making an ultimatum or would quit, but that I really wanted to continue reporting to my current boss.

    Wondering if people think that’s likely to flag me as problematic or difficult to work with? I’m pretty easy-going normally, but this is something that’s very important to me, so I felt I had to say something.

    1. Partly Cloudy*

      I don’t think it makes you sound difficult to work with, and I think it’s a very nice compliment to your boss. Personally, I would have left out the part about being moved being a dissatisfier and just stuck to the reasons why I wanted to keep working for Current Boss, but if you have a good relationship with the director, hopefully she will take that exactly how you meant it (as opposed to coming across as rigid or whiny).

  65. Marcela*

    It seems I won’t have a job after May. We are not reaching our milestone, therefore it’s very probably the investors are not going to give us more money to keep going. We are mourning already, for the team is great and the problem we are trying to solve is super interesting. TPTB said yesterday that the company strategy didn’t work, and one of my coworkers told me that they are back to super basic questions that needed to be answered 5 years ago. How is that possible, I wonder?

    I am super sad. It is a great team, and probably my best job to date. Finally this time I got paid at the market rate! And I did not have to pass a whiteboard interview. And I got to do what I love, use the technology I know, and do server administration. It was the perfect job for me, I found my people again. And now, after 7 months, I’ll lose everything again.

    And in the joking side, I really wanted to have a job that will take me 10+ hours out of my house when my MIL comes in a couple of months. It would be a nightmare having to be here with her all day.

    1. Undine*

      I’m sorry this had to happen. I’m sure it feels like crap, but you haven’t lost everything. Make sure you connect with all these people on LinkedIn and keep in touch with them in the next few months. With luck, one of them will land somewhere great and will be able to refer you. At least you have a much clearer idea of what you want, and maybe some of the pitfalls to ask about in an interview.

    2. PollyQ*

      I’m sorry, it definitely sucks to be in that situation. On the plus side, you’ve gotten experience that will carry over to your next job, it’s a great market for job-hunters, and it sounds like your boss would be a good reference.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Obviously, you will be out of the house for many hours each day looking for a new job while MIL is visiting!

  66. CU*

    I’m looking for feedback from people who have transitioned from classroom teaching to corporate training or vice versa.

    I used to be a high school math and ESOL teacher, but I got fed up with school politics and parents and got a second degree in economics and started working for a very large financial company.

    I think my teaching background combined with my knowledge of the financial industry would make me a good candidate for corporate training positions, but when I have applied for positions, the recruiters seem to think my education background makes me less qualified, not more, though none of them have said why.

    I have tried to highlight skills that I believe cross over from a classroom setting to a training room; knowledge of different learning styles and how to engage all of them, the ability to write clear directions/procedures, comfort of speaking in front of groups, etc. I have also assisted with corporate training, so while I don’t have a lot of experience I don’t think I’m completely naive about the similarities the two have.

    I have recently applied for the position that’s a step up from where I am now. I’m one of the most senior in my role and am recognized throughout the department as a SME, which would be a huge asset in the role I applied for. This role also involves training, both new hire and continuous learning. From what I have seen from people in the role now, training would be roughly 20% of the job.

    So am I being naive about classroom teaching skills being transferable to a corporate training room? If I am called for interviews, how can I play my teaching background as an asset?

    1. CU*

      I should say that the training positions I’ve applied for in the past have not been stretch jobs for me. I met all of the listed requirement and most of the preferred qualifications.

    2. Kowalski! Options!*

      Hey there – Not at all. That’s what I did, after sixteen years of working in TESL/TEFL abroad. The biggest shift that you might have to make, in my experience, is thinking about how to move from straight-down pedagogy to developing solutions that get the learners to have more skin in the game from the get-go — but that’s nothing that can’t be solved by reading some books/blog posts by Julie Dirksen or Cathy Moore. The other shift you might have to make (and it’s not an insignificant one, depending on the company) is adjusting to what corporate expectations of training are, and the tendency that some managers/leaders have of yelling, “We need training!!” any time something comes up. That’s what I’m finding in my job – that training is considered this kind of magic-salve-coming-from-a-black-box that is expected to make everyone’s life exponentially better, especially in situations where the training need hasn’t been particularly well-defined (and it might not be a training need at all – just better communication, instead). Expectation management and actual needs assessment is most of what I do; the course development aspect of it comes in a close second.

    3. Jillociraptor*

      Totally not naive; classroom teaching experience is super, super valuable in many contexts, though I think you may need to help hiring managers make the connection in your cover letter and/or interview. I work with an organization that is predominantly made up of current and former educators, and it can sometimes be tricky to explain how the skills transfer into other settings.

      One thing I would suggest you look into, if you’re not already well-versed in it, is adult learning theory. I know a few folks who now work in corporate training, and all of them have expertise in this area. Adults have somewhat different learning needs than kids, even high school kids. Learning needs to be contextualized, applicable to actual problems, and you need to be much more sensitive to recognizing competence rather than treating the learners as more blank slates.

  67. whichsister*

    Last week I asked if it was appropriate to ask for retro pay during a performance review that was three months late if a raise is given. Well, not surprisingly, my review did not happen. In fact, it has not even been mentioned…

    Well I had good news this week, I have been talking to a recruiter about a specific position since Before XMAS. He is a friend of a former boss of mine. He called her about the position and she was not in a place to pursue and referred him to me. He is the exclusive recruiter for this division of major company you probably heard of and I am his candidate. Well division had some changes, and restructuring so things were delayed. I put job on back burner and actually told me Significant other the other day I had pretty much given up on role. (recruiter keeps in touch with me but it had been a few weeks.) Well recruiter contacted me yesterday and I have a phone interview with the VP next tuesday. ACK!!!

    How do I politely respond to the question of why I am leaving? I loved the initial opportunity – I am creating my program from scratch (I oversee development of tea brewing training as well as training managers who oversee tea brewers) I have built a solid foundation, the company we are doing business as uses my plans as a model to show other franchises, but there is so much internal crazy it impedes progress…

    Plan on rereading Alison’s book this weekend pre-interview….

    1. justsomeone*

      “I’m not looking to leave, per se, but I’m open to other opportunities. I heard about this one and thought the position sounded really interesting to me because of x, y and z.”

  68. Persephone Mulberry*

    Awkward work moment of the week:

    Last Friday, we had a handful clients in the office for a meeting followed by lunch at a local casual restaurant. As I passed my boss a set of silverware, he exclaimed loudly enough for the entire table (10 of us) to hear, “My God, you’ve got the softest hands of anyone I’ve ever met outside of my wife.” If I could have melted through the floor, I probably would have.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      OMG! I am so sorry.

      I had an awkward moment with a former manager. I stepped up and helped with running our team while he was out of the office and he wanted to buy me lunch as a thank you. We went to a cafe near the office and they happened to have a special that day that I wanted. He goes “Wow, you’re a cheap date!” and I was mortified because there were two people from senior leadership nearby.

  69. Manders*

    This is sort of a life thing as well as a work thing, but it’s definitely effecting my work.

    I’m going through some really stressful life events, like trying to buy a condo and dealing with a parent’s illness, that mean I don’t really have any extra vacation time to spend on myself and my weekends and some weekday evenings involve a lot of rushing around looking at units in a hot market.

    Lately, I’ve found myself spacing out and having difficulty focusing on what someone’s saying to me towards the end of a long day or a busy week. At its most severe, I’m feeling what I think might be sensory overload–the sound of anyone else talking or eating or playing music through the wall makes me irritated and I can’t focus on anything but that. I’ve been taking good care of my body with diet, exercise, and sleep, but it hasn’t completely eliminated the problem. I have some hobbies that I find relaxing (martial arts, writing, reading), but they also require clarity and focus. I also got moved to a quieter room at work, which helps, but also hasn’t totally fixed my brain.

    I clearly need to give myself a break, but… I have no idea how! Condos are only on the market for a few days around here, so every time I think I’ll have an evening free, I know I might have to drop my plans to go view a place. I’m not skipping out on time with mom to go on a vacation. I’ve always been a daydreamer but I’m not usually this distracted and zoned out.

      1. Manders*

        It’s a small company with bare-bones healthcare benefits, so I don’t have one. There are some local resources I could use but they’re focused on the huge and immediate stuff, like grief counselling. I know of some great therapists, but they’re expensive and not covered by my insurance.

    2. Bonky*

      I’m sorry: burnout’s dreadful. I really don’t know what to suggest if you’re genuinely unable to take a break of at least a week – I’ve always found that it’s the only solution (and best done before you get to the point you’re at now – this isn’t helpful for your situation today, but in the future, if you feel this stuff coming on, pay attention to what your body’s telling you). Good luck with it all; I really hope it resolves soon.

      1. Manders*

        A week off sounds heavenly. I haven’t had one that wasn’t for a family obligation in… a few years, at least? I even had to delay my honeymoon because visiting mom was more important, it won’t happen until next winter at the earliest.

        Once the condo hunting is behind me, maybe I’ll think about taking time off even if I don’t have enough PTO to cover all of it.

        1. Bonky*

          I sometimes feel so lucky being in the UK; I have literally no idea how friends in the USA manage to stay sane with so little vacation time. Best of luck with everything!

    3. Sibley*

      I’m in the same boat. Dad’s got dementia, and mom’s stressed and has health problems and now I’m helping with stuff. Also am buying a house. And my company, which thinks their benefits are so great, actually has below average time off for my industry. Add in my sister is graduating from school, my college reunion, and a planned trip later this year and I’m reluctant to use my time off. Most of this is happening in about a 2 month time span.

      I’ve found a house and have gotten through some of the initial craziness of the actual purchase process, and the brain seems to be responding to that. Like, ok, something’s been crossed off the list, good. I’ve deliberately declined various social events, and have taken steps to take non-essential things off the to-do list.

    4. LaterKate*

      A week off would be the best solution, imo, but that isn’t possible right now. So I would be looking at ways to take things off your plate, so you can squeeze in a little more downtime. I’m thinking of things like grocery delivery, having a cleaning person come every couple of weeks, etc. Or, if those things are out of your budget, doing things like spending an evening meal prepping for the week so you don’t have to think about it. I agree with being very choosy about agreeing to social invitations. Say yes to the things that will recharge you, and say no to the ones that feel more like obligations.
      I hope things get better soon.

  70. Look on the bright side*

    I need some advice on how to get through the day with a negative coworker. We share an office and there is no option to move. She makes negative comments throughout the day. (Examples: It’s raining too much, the farmer’s crops with be ruined. The landscapers are here and they will blow grass clippings all over our cars. Our billing probably won’t go through right. I’ll see you next week if something doesn’t happen to us over the weekend.) I use to tried to answer with something positive (I’m sure it will work out ok, etc) but it has worn on me to the point that now I don’t respond at all or only with hmmms. I know the best thing to do is just let this roll off my back but it’s tough for me to not be affected by it on such a constant basis. Anyone have advice to not let this bring me down?

    1. Rebecca*

      Are you allowed to wear headphones, or listen to podcasts/radio during work? I started to do this, as I share an office with someone who complains a lot, swears at her computer, that type of thing. When I offered to help, or show her how I do things more easily, she won’t let me help or show her anything, she just likes to complain. It’s really draining. So, I downloaded a bunch of podcasts to my phone, and when she starts, I listen to a podcast with my noise canceling earbuds. It really helps. I don’t feel guilty about trying to help or not answering. I’m happy to be back here, and I don’t want to let her get me down or drag me into her miasma of complaining.

    2. Clever Name*

      I am so sorry you’re dealing with this. I’ve shared an office with a Negative Nancy and it’s really demoralizing. I second the earbuds suggestion. Same with not responding. Who knows what type of response she is wanting, but hopefully giving her no response will reduce any (inadvertent) reward she is getting from you.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      That’s excessive. The comment about the weekend is totally inappropriate and uncalled for. Next time she says something negative, you might want to say “Nancy, I don’t know if you realize this, but you come across as a really negative, pessimistic person. Can you keep those comments to yourself? They really bring me down.”

    4. LCL*

      Respond to every negative statement building on what she said. Eventually she will stop talking to you. Or just stop the negative talk, which is a better outcome.

      Example- the landscapers will blow grass clippings etc. your answer-yes, and some might stick to my windshield and I won’t see the car at the intersection so I will crash and die. Will you miss me? The tone is absurd but kind. You don’t want to make her feel bullied or intimidated, this is just her way of relating to the world. But you don’t want to hear it, either. I was married into a family of people like this, for awhile.

      Read the updated version of Karen Pryor’s Don’t shoot the dog. It’s like a child’s introduction to behaviorism, and seems to have a lot of application to work situations.

    5. Zis*

      I don’t respond with positivity, because in my experience people say things like that to release stress. I respond with a joke or something facetious about what they’ve just said.

      >The landscapers are here and they’ll blow grass clippings all over our cars.
      >Can’t get much greener than that.

      Something like that. That tends to help.

  71. Lil Lamb*

    Thank you for all the advice you gave me last week. My friend actually got the job that I was describing to her, and I surprised myself by being able to be genuinely happy for her. I’ve been telling myself that our paths are different, and it’s seemed to work really well.

  72. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I wanted to thank everyone who gave me input in last week’s open thread re: commenting stuff. I’m mulling it all over, and it was really helpful to get so much input.

  73. animaniactoo*

    Props to my manager right now. This week has been good and rough. I’ve got a new license to work with and the directions I’ve been given are hard to apply. So I’ve been struggling with it, and she started laughing at me earlier in the week and more or less made a point in front of the entire department (all 5 of us…) that she’s never seen me stuck before.

    Which was a little chopbustingish, but I’d much rather that than have her coming down on my head. The next day I went in to tell her that I appreciate that she knows this isn’t normal for me and she instantly said “No, not normal. Not normal at all. That’s why I’m just letting you do your thing, process, whatever it takes to get yourself through it. I know you’ll figure it out.”

    And that… was really really nice.

  74. SubmarineSue*

    I’m in my 40’s. Have been working the same career for more than 15 years and have been stuck just below management for the past 10 years. Everytime I get a foothold on a management rung, something bounces me out. My own inabilities (I’m a thinker) or my personality (I’m very understated) or company budget cuts. I honestly believe that I’m in the wrong career and have thought that for some time, but as some of you know, it’s hard to make that change. Unfortunately not making that change has put me on – what feels like – a permanent career plateau. Fortunately, I work for a company that pays for school, so I’m working on a degree in another field. And while I’m excited, I’m also terrified about the change. I’m also going to have to take a pretty healthy pay cut in order to move into this career, which I’m not looking forward to. I was just wondering if anyone has already experienced this scenario and whether they have words of wisdom to share?

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Are you me? I would love to hear of any solution anyone else comes up with because I’m sitting high on that plateau as well, though in my case its probably due to moving too much/lateral moves. All the same it gets exhausting to never feel like you are moving forward to something better and bigger even if you have the background/experience to handle it.

      1. SubmarineSue*

        My current job was a lateral move. I was a manager at my previous job – though I had no direct reports, so really it was just a title not a real designation. It was a pretty toxic environment though and I needed to get out, so I took a slight title decrease, but more $$$. I’ve been here about 4 years. I recently lost out on a promotion to a (younger) coworker, who started after me at a lower level. Had the hard talk with the boss, which was perfectly civil and kind, but walked away from that meeting realizing that I no longer want to try and force a square peg into a round hole. :-/

    2. NoMoreMrFixit*

      I’m 54 and about to finish full time college studies. Going from IT into HR. Takes advantage of my overall computer literacy and customer service skills but going in a new direction that is far less stressful for me. Focus on the transferable skills you have and your passion for the new direction. Don’t let your age scare you. I’m older than some of my profs. Still learned lots from them!

      Yes it’s scary. I expect to make roughly half of what I used to earn. That’s the price of changing careers but my health is worth more to me than mere dollars. Being able to look forward to going to work is worth more than money. Believe that you can do this and you will succeed. It isn’t easy. But I don’t regret doing this.

  75. Alice*

    I’m looking for advice dealing with a micromanager — the trick is, he’s not _my_ manager. (Which I’m very thankful for!)

    Fergus the micromanager is a peer to my boss’s boss. A small part of my job is liaising with Fergus’s team to make sure that things are going smoothly with a service offered to the clients of my part of the organization by Fergus’s team, from a different part of the organization.

    When an issue comes up, I reach out to the Fergus general team email address, a distribution list including three staff members at my level and Fergus. Fergus is the only one who replies, sometimes late and sometimes never. I’m told by a colleague on my team (who used to handle this relationship) that Fergus doesn’t give his staff the autonomy we have in our part of the organization; I don’t know if it’s true but it seems like it.

    Waiting for Ferguson tiny operational details adds big delays — he is supposed to be doing strategic decision-making, and he has staff to manage the details because his time is (should be?) occupied with strategic issues. He’s also unaware of on-the-ground changes between the time he was heavily involved in hands-on management of this service and now, so he sometimes gets facts wrong.

    Fergus also cc’s my boss’s boss when he replies. I assume he’s just trying to share information, rather than “tell on me” — he always includes lots of language thanking me for feedback (sincere or not, who knows). But come on, do we really need TWO high-level people to be involved in following up when I ask what happened with a missed appointment?

    In my dream world, Fergus’s staff who run the service would respond to me about operational questions quickly and the high-level people (Fergus and my boss’s boss) would be involved for discussions about policy, new directions, service improvements. Is there anything I can do to make that happen?

    1. OhBehave*

      Can you email Fergus’ team excluding him? That may be the only way around this.
      What does your boss have to say about this?
      It also sounds like Fergus is cc’ing boss’s boss in an attempt to make it seem like he’s relevant.

      Micromanagers are the bane of any employee’s life!

  76. Coffee and Mountains*

    I’m on a board, and a good friend of mine just got a job at the company. Is this something I should be concerned about, or is it something where we just don’t talk about her company when we get together?

    1. InternWrangler*

      I would disclose the connection to the Board president, so that someone knows. Then I would establish boundaries with your friend that you don’t talk about her company or her work. I think that this isn’t too uncommon and can work out fine if everyone is clear on the boundaries.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Dunno if you will see this.
      If something comes up that you have to vote on and it impacts her in some way just abstain from voting. I have done this a couple times on board votes even when the board said they did not care if I voted. I think it makes the record straight if I abstain in certain cases.

      Check your bylaws and maybe there is a board member handbook, check that also. (In addition to telling your board.)
      Don’t repeat what goes on at board meetings to your friend. But DO tell the board if their actions are negatively impacting people, if your friend tells you such news.

  77. JMegan*

    Thanks to all who offered support when I was griping about anxiety and depression in the workplace a couple of weeks ago. I just want to report that I finished *everything* on my to-do list this week! (Not gonna lie, it was a short list. But I did it!) I wrote down everything I needed to do, and broke it down by days, with no more than 1-2 “must-dos” each day.

    Of course, I’ve done this before and not accomplished anything at all, so my own headspace is clearly the biggest variable here. So I don’t want to take too much credit for things that are still outside my control. But I’m certainly feeling better, and it’s nice to know that I *can* get good work done when my brain allows me to.

    2. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Good for you! I suffer from the same issues and task lists are what keeps me relatively sane and in control.

  78. Asynchronous Video Interview*

    Hi all! I have an asynchronous video interview that I plan on doing this evening. I’ve never done any kind of video interview before, let alone something that’s asynchronous. It’s sort of internal so I was able to check in with one of my supervisors (who isn’t a hiring manager this time around but knows the process) and she confirmed my suspicion that this interview is primarily to weed out folks who aren’t very tech literate. No problem there for me but I’m wondering about any advice you have for these kinds of interviews.

    Supervisor wasn’t sure if there’d be an option to re-record answers I was unsatisfied with and, if there was, how many I’d have (the website they’re using says it’s up to the employer). I should get the questions one-by-one as you would in most in-person interviews.

    I know to still wear interview clothes, pick a spot with good lighting that is quiet, make sure my mic, etc. are working, keep notes up on the wall behind my camera so I can look at them without shuffling around, and put a picture or something up by the webcam so I “make eye contact.” Anything else?

    1. Bad Candidate*

      I just had one of these this week. They gave me two chances to answer each question. It came up and I had 60 seconds to prepare. I could either hit the record now button or wait the 60 seconds and it would start automatically. Then I had to review my answer and go to the next one. I’m not sure what would have happened if I needed more than two chances to record my answer though.

      1. Asynchronous Video Interview*

        This is great info! I was wondering if I’d be likely to have prep time. (I’d really, really like it…) Can I ask which software/website they used?

        1. Bad Candidate*

          They used a company called Yello. I did another one awhile back for a different company, they used a software called HireVue, but both worked pretty similarly. I got the question, some time to think it over, then had to record an answer.

  79. INTP*

    I have a question about tailoring my resume for freelance work.

    I work a part-to-full time (32-40 hours based on need) in-house job in my industry. I’ve also done some freelance work on the side off and on. My day job provides insurance and experience but it does not pay well, and is usually a jumping-off point for people that move into freelance work or other industries that need our skills. We technically have a non-compete agreement, but it doesn’t expressly prohibit the freelance work that I’m doing, though I guess it is a bit up to interpretation (I cannot do the same type of work for a competitor while I work here or for a year after leaving – let’s say that my freelance work involves constructing the teapots, while my day job involves inspecting the freshly-made teapots from our freelancers for quality issues). My boss’ point of view is that it’s dumb to prohibit part-time workers from side hustling and she just wants us to be discreet so she doesn’t have to know about it.

    Anyways, my day job is a major asset to my resume, so I want to include it. But if I put both my day job and my freelance work (which I’d list as one “job”) with dates that run concurrently, will that make it look like I’ve been flagrantly violating a non-compete, or will that probably not cross most people’s minds? Should I leave the other freelance work off, like I am just starting to transition?

    Also, I’m not sure whether to specify the part-time status of my day job. I work nearly full-time hours, so I don’t think it would be dishonest to just leave it off, but might make agencies soliciting freelance work think I have a low bandwidth for workweek work and communications during the workday. If I do mark it as part-time, that’s not an issue, but it might give the impression that I’ve been working more like 20 hours/week and make it less of an asset to my resume. I could also specify 32-40 hours, but that seems weird.

    I am leaning towards listing both the day job and the freelance work, and just marking the day job as “part-time,” but I know assumptions people might make when reading a resume vary a lot.

    1. H.C.*

      I think it’s fine to list both your day job and the freelance work; I’ve listed both concurrently on mine too and it’s never brought up as a question or issue during interviews.

  80. Cat, not Copy*

    When I say it out loud, I feel I sound immature or irrational, but my coworker is copying what I’m doing and it’s getting pretty annoying… It’s nothing that’s affecting my work or my quality of work; it’s all the ‘other’ stuff that she’s mimicking. We’re both in our 20s and working in the same department. It’s like, I started wearing X, she started wearing X. I started taking Y classes, she took them at a different studio. I’m wearing this dress to our company’s event, she got a similar dress in the same color. She does these things with a sort of competitive edge to it; when we’re paired to do things together she tries to finish first/get more items/etc. when it’s not necessary.

    For the most part I can ignore it. However, our boss favors her over me (she’s been working here longer, plus our boss has called her “her second daughter”) so when Jane does what I did last week, our boss gushes over her.

    It’s getting annoying, and I’m getting frustrated over these things are not worth my time– but I can’t help it. Any tips on how I can chuck these feelings out the door?

    1. Allypopx*

      That sounds INCREDIBLY frustrating. I’m not sure I have constructive advice but it would definitely drive me batty, so I don’t think you sound immature or irrational.

    2. Clever Name*

      Ugh. Unless you think it’s negatively affecting you professionally, I’d do your best to ignore it. Are you at all friendly with her at work? If so, I’d pull back significantly and only discuss work-related topics when you absolutely need to. In some ways you could see her behavior as flattering, but when the boss praises her for something you did last week, just no.

      1. Cat, not Copy*

        Yeah, I know her fairly well. Our friend groups overlap so I knew her socially before professionally. I definitely cut back on the amount of time we socialize (and vent about work!) so hopefully that’ll help.

        I feel like ignoring is the best way to deal with it. All of these examples have NOTHING to do with my work; it’s all social stuff and little tidbits. I’d sound ridiculous bringing up these issues to my boss or HR. But it’s a big headache. So annoying!

        I had a friend in 8th grade who copied me on everything and took credit for it, too. My parents taught me to ignore her, do my own thing & be grateful for what I have, and people will recognize that she’s imitating others. I’m trying to do this now and hopefully I’ll regain sanity!

    3. Troutwaxer*

      No idea about the feelings, but you could wear an ugly dress, then laugh at her when she copies you.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        There is that potential to set up her up in that manner. You can also do things that you know she won’t do. Let’s say you like to parachute out of airplanes. Talk about that.

        And remember none of these things here are a job qualification. She is not going to be able to put on a resume that she copied her coworker well.
        Keep being the leader. Keep developing yourself as an employee. At some point she will no longer be able to match you. And at some point you will zip out so far beyond her that you will not longer care.

        FWIW, the copy cat I had was my boss. At first I did not notice. Once I noticed I thought it was creepy. As I went on doing my own thing and coming up with my own ideas about how I wanted my life to go, I left her behind in a cloud of dust. But by then, I did not really notice or really care.

  81. Pooja*

    I have a question about what to do when you feel like hiring managers don’t believe you can’t get a job.

    I’ve posted a few times in the open thread that I’ve been dealing with a very long and depressing job search for the past two years. I’ve made a few mistakes in the beginning, but a lot of things that happened were beyond my control.

    Anyway, I’m running into a serious problem where hiring managers don’t believe I can’t get a job in my field. They see my CV and assume I am lying or hiding something. I’m just not really sure what to do? I can’t offer them a whole lot of explanation why I don’t have a job other than a lot of people got cold feet about bringing on a non-local applicant and I live in an economically depressed area. I used to volunteer but my mental health problems from my job search made it impossible. Any suggestions?

    1. Berry*

      My sympathies – I feel like there’s no proper response to “Look at your qualifications! I can’t believe you don’t have a job in your field yet!” I got a few times while interviewing and was never sure how to react.

      That being said, I don’t know if this would be easier for you to do but either focusing the non-local applicant difficulties or pretending that your job search is pretty recent and that you haven’t been working in your direct field because sometimes work is work is work but finding connections between what you’re doing now and what you’re applying for, however broad, and emphasizing getting into your intended field.

      (I am making an assumption that you have some kind of current position listed, if not this probably doesn’t help? Or maybe saying that you were recovering from health issues and needed to take some personal time but are now back to looking for work.) Best of luck!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Don’t wait for them to ask. Tell them that you have been doing a remote job search and people prefer to hire someone who is local. Tell them what your plan is to move so that they know you have concrete plan to move to their area. (The plan should just be a few sentences so they can see you have put thought into it.)

      The key is to not wait for them to ask. If you know that searching from a remote location has been a drawback mention it right at the first opportunity.

      My board just hired someone from 9 hours away. She had a plan for getting here with her stuff, she knew where she wanted to live and she came across as very organized about all this. We knew a move from 9 hours away was doable for her.

  82. Awkward Post-Interview Email*

    So I interviewed with a company where I meet all the basic requirements and maybe even a little more. The interview included a small test (social work type of position) where I needed to analyze what I would do for a client scenario. My interviewers seemed to be impressed with my responses and me in general. There were several openings to work with different age ranges and I interviewed with the adolescent age range supervisor who stated she had one opening but spent a good deal explaining about the infant age range work as well. She inquired if I would be interested in that age group. I explained I have experience in Infant to Late- Teens and would be open. She then said she wished to provide me with her email if I had any questions or if I would no longer be interested in the position as she would want to know before checking references. She said they were interviewing for the next 2 weeks. Right on the 2 week mark I sent a Post-Interview email stating that I am aware they were interviewing for the next 2 weeks and I wished to circle back and thank them for meeting with me and reiterate my interest etc. I received a response that she had hired someone that she “met before meeting with me” and she really appreciated my email and she would be forwarding to HR so that they may keep track of my interest and to send all other inquiries to HR. I became confused because I didn’t receive a formal rejection, I wasn’t sure if I was still in the running for the other positions of other ages (they had about 6 openings, 1 with her team and 5 with another). I then emailed HR basically stating: I was notified by Jane that her position has been filled and I wish to inquire if I was still in the running for the other open positions. I have not received a response. I feel kind of silly sending the email to Jane not knowing that she had already hired someone. But in my defense if they would have notified me, I wouldn’t have thought they were just wrapping up interviewing. I am also confused with Jane’s wording: “I have made a decision and have hired someone I met with prior to meeting you”. Why is it significant that it was someone prior to meeting me? I actually would have preferred she hired someone after meeting me. It would make more sense. Nevertheless I am pondering if I should have followed-up with HR or let it go.

  83. Anxa*

    I have a question about nudity at a worksite.

    So I work at a college. I’m in academic support, so there’s really no expectation of a living wage, benefits, full-time hours or anything like that. So I would really be happy to try to take advantage of the few perks of working at a college.

    One of those is access to the gym and pool. I could never afford a pool pass on my own, and while I don’t like pools that much (dry skin, etc.) I do like to swim. I no longer live at the beach and I love to swim. I’ve been a few times this semester, but I’m worried that I’m doing myself a disservice.

    I’m not a huge fan of changing in front of people in any circumstance do to some body image issues, but I wonder if it’s even acceptable to do at work. I could theoretically be changing around my students. FWIW I have no authority over them or any power to affect their grade. Is it really unprofessional? Also, and I’m not sure why this should matter, but it does feel like it makes it different in some ways, but I don’t usually shave to go to the pool. Shaving is very uncomfortable for me and I like to save it for when it matters more. But I do feel like there’s an underlaying vibe of body hair on women to be unprofessional. So there’s that.

    1. Leatherwings*

      I think changing in a gym locker room is totally fine. It’s not like people really stare at people in the locker room so it’s unlikely it will even register as “nudity” to anyone. If it makes you feel super uncomfortable, you can always change in a shower or bathroom stall.

    2. Alice*

      For what it’s worth, my advice is go to the pool, use the locker room, and don’t worry about it. These students are adults, and they should have good enough manners to do what everyone else does in the locker room: take care of what you’re doing and ignore everyone else.
      As far as shaving — I don’t think you need any special shaving regimen to use the pool. However you handle your body hair normally, keep doing that.
      Enjoy the exercise!

    3. Cranberry*

      My office has a gym, and many people choose to change in the locker area. I have seen an amazing amount of skin of the people I work with. At first, it was a little jarring, but I’ve gotten used to this- everyone keeps their eyes down, and you’d be surprised how easy it gets to be to tune out other people changing.

      I still sometimes use the bathroom area instead of changing in front of people, but at least in my company, it’s not a big deal.

      And with regards to shaving… I doubt anyone will be able to tell! Especially in the pool!

    4. Anxa*

      I went today! It wasn’t my first time but it was the first time I didn’t draw out the process of getting in and out by trying to hide so much.

      The majority of users are community users. I’m not sure I’ve ever actually been to the pool with other students. I’m not even sure anyone else was staff. I’ve decided not to worry so much about it, as I also think that’s probably an overall good thing to see a variety of bodies in a non-sexual way. A lot of my students are health science students so it’s probably not even an issue.

      What I do need to work on is making myself more presentable when I come out. I don’t wear makeup when I shower outside the home and my hair was wet but not in its usual damp hair styles so I will be more careful next time.

    5. Language Lover*

      I’ve been in this situation before. I was lucky in that when I used the locker rooms, they weren’t that busy.

      I’m not going to lie. It could be a bit awkward but that was more for when I ran into coworkers than students since students eventually will move on. Coworkers will not.

      What I have found, though, is people manage to adult pretty well in locker rooms. I change quickly in an area where there aren’t many people. If I end up close to someone, we just did our locker room stuff and didn’t interact too much, especially if we were naked.

      The only way to know how you’ll feel about it is to do it but if this is a perk being offered, then take advantage of it.

  84. Saturnine*

    I feel like I can’t focus at all at work. I’m not getting any work done; I’m just sitting here all day. I feel like every second is another second closer to being fired when they realize how little I’ve been doing. I’ve been trying to find an antidepressant that works since December, but if anything, my mood’s just been getting worse. I’m wasting my company’s time and money but I don’t know how to get focused and do my job. I don’t have anyone to talk to about this; my partner is supportive but has enough stuff on their plate to deal with, and I’m not really close to anyone else, but I don’t have the energy to go out and do stuff or even find support groups online. I’m a new grad so I feel like my actions (or lack of them) are going to tank my career and ruin my life forever. I don’t know how to manage myself.

    1. JMegan*

      Oh gosh, this is me so much of the time. (I have just started being open about it here on AAM, if you want to track down some of my posts on the Friday open threads.) It’s awful, isn’t it. Does your workplace have an EAP where you can access a therapist? I hope you can get some good meds sorted out soon as well. They’re not magic, obviously, but for me they clear out enough brain space that I can start figuring out the other things that need to be done. Good luck, this is tough!

      1. Saturnine*

        Thank you for the response, I’ll poke around for your posts when I have time :) I believe we have EAP, but the one time I contacted them for a different reason, they seemed a bit difficult to talk to! Still, I should try using them again. I’ve had various therapists on and off throughout my life, but in the end they never felt very useful and I eventually stopped seeing them, but I know I should keep trying until I find one that works for me! It’s just hard to have the energy/not be too anxious to reach out to them.

    2. copy run start*

      Oh, this could be me writing. But it’s really your depression. Please reach out to your partner, or someone else. Even if you don’t feel that close. Even if you think they’re too busy. Part of the sneaky depression spiral is the way it isolates you from everyone else and becomes a self-fulling prophecy: “I can’t bother my SO with this, they’re busy.” And so you withdraw from SO, and then you’re thinking, “I am so alone, I hardly even talk to my SO anymore.” And thus depression tightens its grip.

      Finding the right therapist is really hard. I’ve had my best luck seeing the grads student at my local school of psychology. They have always been receptive to what strategies work best for me, vs. what a more experienced therapist might prefer.

      Antidepressants are hard. I’ve done well on Wellbutrin and Lexapro at different times in my life, but Prozac? No good. Keep trying and talk with your doctor and pharmacist. They might have a suggestion based on what they’ve seen with their other patients. It’s so frustrating waiting to find out if the meds will help or hurt, but it just take it day by day. There are some mood-tracking apps you can use to see how things are going for you. Or just keep a notebook somewhere. It’ll be something to look back at if/when you do find the right medication.

      Focus on self-care. Try to get enough sleep, get solid meals and exercise, if it’s helpful to you. (Even if it’s just a walk to the mailbox.) If there’s something that calms you or makes you feel better like reading or a TV show, make time for that every day. Sometimes just writing out the thoughts in your head can help you process them and see where they might not be logical.

      If you’re stuck on the depression spiral train at work, strategic bathroom breaks are a godsend. Especially if there’s one that’s disused. A few minutes in a quiet, cool bathroom has helped put me back together numerous times. I also find hot water soothing. Pro-tip: allergy eye drops will reduce swelling and redness from crying. (They will kinda burn though if you’ve been crying.) If you’re struggling to get through a task, try breaking it into the most basic chunks you can. Make a list and tackle them one-by-one. The pomodoro method (work for x time, take an x minute break) helps me. Google “marinara timer” for a website with a customizable timer.

      I’ve found Captain Awkward’s advice on working while depressed to be invaluable. Google “How to tighten up your game at work when you’re depressed” to find it.

      Please know that I’m thinking of you and wishing you the best.

      1. Saturnine*

        Thank you so much for your response, I truly appreciate the time you put into it. I will try to take your advise.

  85. Amber Rose*

    I wrote a thing but it got eaten due to a weird bug. And then I spent half an hour trying to figure out how to submit a bug report when the bug prevents that also.

    Short version: I am working from home for just today and the cat insists on sitting on my work. Also 161 pages of report is just too many pages. I have a long let’s play running on the TV and I’m comfortable though so can’t complain too much.

    TGIF.

    1. JMegan*

      I really feel like “the cat sat on my homework” should be a legitimate excuse for not getting stuff done. After all, anyone who knows cats know that they can’t be moved once they’re settled somewhere!

      1. Amber Rose*

        I lured him away with my hoodie. He loves that hoodie more than literally anything else. I don’t know why. But he’s been happily snoring on it at the other end of the couch and I’m slowly chipping at this report.

        Very slowly.

  86. Internal Encouragement*

    After hearing that an internal position was proving difficult to fill, I asked my manager if he thought it was worth me applying. I had considered it but decided it was probably too much of a reach a few weeks ago. His response was that it “couldn’t hurt.” I’m a little concerned about the lack of enthusiasm, given that he’d be managing/hiring for the position. But on the other hand, maybe he’s just trying to avoid showing favoritism? I’d asked for a time to chat about it next time I’m in but his response came in an email. Blah.

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      Hey, don’t forget tone of voice gets lost on email. I think this sounds encouraging.

  87. Sugar of lead*

    I interviewed for a job a week ago. The manager said he’d call the day of, but I still haven’t heard from him. I know that managers sometimes take their time getting back to people but this is ridiculous. At what point do I write this one off? I’m not even sure if I’m capable of holding down a job in the first place; I’m 20 and I’ve never worked for more than three months at a time.
    Maybe it’s a sign from above that I need to revise my expectations downward again.

    1. Dr. KMnO4*

      I don’t think you need to revise your expectations downward, necessarily. You should look at your job history and ask yourself why you’ve never worked for more than 3 months at a time.

      And a week isn’t too long yet. But I do find that it helps to try and write it off immediately after I’ve interviewed/sent in the application. Am I successful? Not especially, but I try to remind myself that there are likely many applicants and I can’t control the process or how long it takes.

      1. Sugar of lead*

        I’ve never worked for more than three months at a time because I have a mood disorder that is aggravated by stress, though my last job fired me for an unrelated reason. It’s not bad enough for disability, but I feel another episode coming and I’m seriously considering whether or not I’m capable of holding down a job.

        Love the username, by the way. Potassium permanganate, right?

        1. Dr. KMnO4*

          It is potassium permanganate! You’re better at naming compounds than some of my students :)

          As someone who also has a mood disorder that can affect my job performance, I don’t know that you absolutely can’t hold down a job, but certainly that the type of jobs you look into might need to change. I don’t know what your disorder is, or what you are doing to manage it, but it might help to discuss your employment challenges with a mental health professional. I’m in a rural area of the US, so I understand that wanting help with mental health and being able to access help are two VERY different things. I don’t want to come off as lecturing you, or telling you that you MUST find work, or anything like that. I just want to encourage you to be as positive as you can be (hard sometimes, I know) and remember that you have strengths and talents that I’m sure would be valuable to some companies.

        2. Buu*

          Sugar are you applying for full or part time jobs? Perhaps consider trying 1-2 day jobs to ease yourself in?

          As for the job you applied for send a polite e-mail asking when you’d likely hear back. Interviewer could just have gotten sidetracked.

    2. Bonky*

      I’m afraid a week is not very long. “Why haven’t they got back to me yet?” is a question Alison gets asked a lot here; it’s worth having a look through the archives. I wouldn’t start worrying yet. There are all kinds of externals which might affect the manager’s ability to get back to you as fast as you might like.

      Why have you never worked for more than three months at a time? That might be something worth thinking about so you can start to address it.

  88. Roman Holiday*

    I’m having a minor problem at work and I’m not sure how to fix it or if I should even try. About a month ago, my company apparently hired someone with the same name as me. Since then, I’ve been getting emails and meeting requests meant for her a couple of times a week, from people inside and outside of the company. I think she’s in HR or hiring, since a couple of the external emails contain resumes and requests for interviews. I don’t want to leave these poor people hanging, so I don’t mind re-directing them, but I’m getting a little fed up with getting emails from the same colleagues who can’t seem to figure it out. My standard response has been something like, “Hi, you have the wrong Roman Holiday here!” and I’ve started adding, “I suggest you remove me from your suggested contacts so you can email the correct person next time” but the emails keep coming from a couple particular offenders and I’ve just started deleting them. My company is around 15,000 people worldwide and the people sending the emails are in an office and department I have zero interaction with so I’m not even sure who I would take this problem to, but it is sure getting on my nerves!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’d suggest emailing the other Roman Holiday and saying “I keep getting emails from Jake, Rosa, and Gina for you. Please make sure they have your correct address.”

      2. Mephyle*

        Another reason to touch base with her is that you might be missing emails intended for you that are going to her instead.

    2. Clever Name*

      My husband has a name doppelganger at work. He mostly fixed the issue by asking IT to add a 1 behind his middle initial in the email (he works for a ginormous global company with tens of thousands of employees) rather than having the 1 behind his last name. So instead of Bud.Y.Smith1@megacorp.com it’s Bud.Y1.Smith@megacorp.com. That seems to have solved the problem because it’s easier for people to see, I guess.

    3. justsomeone*

      I feeeeeeeel your pain. There’s another person in HR at my company with the same name and first initial as me and I get emails with ALL KINDS of personal info in them sent to me accidentally. TBH, there hasn’t been a solve. If someone is a repeat offender I will reach out to that person directly and let them know “hey, you keep emailing stuff for HR Person. His email is X.” It’s helped some, but sometimes email autocompletes still foil the process.

    4. Ms Ida*

      Me too! Mine is also in HR so occasionally I avert my eyes and hit forward as fast as I can :)
      I reply to the sender and copy in the correct person. In my case we have a small spelling variation and I just point out the correct email.

    5. JustaTech*

      I had a TA in grad school with the same unusual first name and when I took her class I got several (usually angry) emails directed at the TA. I just replied “Hey, wrong email, this is your fellow student who totally agrees with you!” and let the TA know I was occasionally getting her mail.
      But it only happened 3-4 times, not over and over.

    6. LCL*

      Throw this one at IT, they will have a fix. It’s what I did. Unfortunately, because I asked second, and the other person was much more savvy about office procedures because of the role she held, I was the one who had to change my address a bit. Even though I had the email address first. Once that gets sorted, put a sig line in your email directing people.

    7. Dizzy Steinway*

      A colleague of mine had this problem – imagine something along the lines of having Katie Smith and Katy Smith. I get that it’s annoying, but it’s not really okay to delete them. You need to make sure you forward them, whatever else you do. I would also check you have full information filled out (job title etc) in any internal directories.

  89. new job*

    has anyone here recently started a job and had a bit of a slow ramp up period? granted, i came from way toxic environment where operating at anything but 100 mph was frowned upon.. but i’ve been here two weeks and kinda have yet to really jump into the meat of my projects. i’ve been doing a lot of research, but i seem to learn best when i kinda get thrown in a bit. so suffice to say i’ve been a bit… bored.

    any advice on how to gently bring this up?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’m in a slow ramp-up period, and I’ve been here for nearly 4 months! Honestly, I would give it at least another week, but first, talk to your manager about expectations and plans for how fast they want you to get up to speed. My boss has been wonderfully clear about that, so despite my own feeling of complete uselessness, I’m trying to breathe and slow my roll. I’m also lucky in that my boss recognizes that I like to be doing things, but he would prefer to wait until I know how to do them the right way before he hands over projects. So it’s a fight with myself to relax a bit. I understand how you feel, and you’re probably doing just fine.

    2. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      Yes this happened to me when I started my current job. I didn’t feel like I was doing much until 6 months in. Was it boring sometimes? Yes, but I needed that slow period to recover from my previous job. For you, if you are bored and want to jump in, I would just say that honestly to your manager. I don’t think you need to be gentle about it, just say that you feel like you learn best when you jump right in and ask if there are some tasks you can work on.

      But that being said I don’t think two weeks is that abnormal for things to still be slow for a new person. They may be trying to figure out what they want you to do and that can take time, although that doesn’t mean that there aren’t things you could work on or someone you could help in the meantime. But if they’ve already know how they want you to contribute then you should be able to start. Your manager may be trying to take it easy on you since you are new and there is nothing wrong with telling them that you are ready to go.

  90. Not Going to Get My Raise*

    Last July, my boss’ boss (“Grandboss”) asked me to take over the management of a new-to-me project, which was planned as a .5 FTE role. I worked with my direct manager (“Boss”) to shift some of my existing responsibilities to other team members, but it wasn’t nearly enough to make up for the 20 hours/week I was now expected to dedicate to my new project.

    Then, in October, Grandboss offered me a new .5 FTE role; her vision was that I would leave my original work behind entirely, and spend 50% on the work I took over in July and 50% on the brand-new project. Grandboss told me that the new proposed role would be a promotion (and I know from our published salary bands that a promotion would include an approximately 30% raise). After a lot of consideration, I accepted, under the condition that I had to stay in my current role (the 50% that was my original job) through the end of the year, to wrap up a training cycle. She agreed, and I ended up splitting my time 50% to my original project, 25% to new-in-July project and 25% to new-in-October project through the end of the calendar year. (Although I wasn’t able to get either Boss or Grandboss to agree to remove any of my existing responsibilities, so I was just trying to do all of it. Ugh.) At the beginning of this year, I shifted to 50/50 with the two new projects.

    But my promotion hasn’t come through. First I was told that it would wait until the end of the year, when I made the final shift to the new breakdown of projects. Then I was told that it would come after a division-wide reorg, in February. Then, after the reorg got delayed, I was told that it would still be mid-February. And that’s the last I’ve heard about it.

    Complicating all this is that I’ve decided that I’m not going to continue in my new/current role; I have regretted taking on the new-in-October project and want to go back to the arrangement we made in July (50% my original work, 50% the new-in-July project, none of the new-in-October project). My Grandboss has agreed to this, beginning in our new fiscal year in July.

    … so now it seems I won’t get a promotion at all. Which, looking just at the work I’ll be doing come July, could make sense. But I will have spent a year in a leveled-up job, without getting the leveled-up title or salary.

    What should I do?

  91. AdAgencyChick*

    Piggybacking off of the earlier question this week about how to motivate freelancers to turn in work on time:

    I’m the head editor for a “recipe” company (we do not write actual recipes; like the OP from the earlier question, I’m using “recipes” as camouflage for another type of content). I know we don’t pay that much (and I don’t set the pay rates), in fact I’m doing my own job purely for love of the type of writing I’m doing and not for my piddly paycheck. So I know there’s only a certain amount I can expect of my writers.

    The owner of the company, though, likes to dream about all the champagne he wants with his iced-tea budget. His latest thing is that he thinks the writers should all be throwing out ideas to each other, and helping each other complete pieces. He thought switching to a service like Slack would make this magically happen. I pointed out that as long as we pay writers only for pieces they complete themselves, and it’s not a full-time job where teamwork is part of what you’re paid for, we can go ahead and change platforms, but we’re not likely to see collaboration unless we incentivize it in some way.

    This isn’t the first time I’ve pointed out to him that a pie-in-the-sky idea is unlikely to succeed. When I do, I get a pouty “I just think this is how it should be” response.

    I realize that this may just be “how he is” (and honestly, after the one or two pouty emails, he usually moves on to other things), but any advice on how to “manage up” in this situation would be greatly appreciated.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Make him think through his ideas instead of pointing out the flaw.

      “That sounds interesting. Currently we only pay them for work they complete themselves, so how do we sell them on the advantages of using this? What benefits can we point to for them?”

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        Right?! The model he is hot on is consistent with how this work is done by certain companies that have the budget for multiple full-time staff members.

        But…they’re full-time. The incentive system is completely different, so the behavior is different, naturally!

  92. Anon Anon*

    Earlier this week, one of my managers (I have two) emailed me to question something on my time card. She said she didn’t mind approving the vacation I’d requested, but that it’s important for me to let my managers know when I plan time off.

    I forwarded her the request I’d sent last month (to both managers) last month, said I’d submitted the time card before receiving approval because I didn’t think there would be a problem with the time off as there were no conflicts on my schedule or impact on others, and asked if there was another way I should be contacting them both of my requests for time off.

    She replied that she had no record of the email I’d sent and asked my other manager if he’d received it.

    He replied by forwarding her a copy of the approved time off request. Signed by her.

    I’m so happy to have been vindicated. There are clearly still issues we need to work out regarding approval (as I was never sent a copy of the approved time off form), but for now I’m happy to be vindicated. Without having to do it myself.

    2. Hrovitnir*

      Hurrah! But also GAH because the fact she instantly claimed to have not sent it without checking is uncool.

  93. Anxa*

    Let’s say you earned a certificate to inspect Teapots, Textiles, and other things for safety. Let’s say you never found a job in inspections. Your license expires.

    Now you’re applying to a Teapot manufacturing plant where quality assurance and safety seem to be important to the company.

    Do you think your training in safety is relevant? Or do you think you’re drawing attention to your inability to get a job and also that you wanted to be a safety inspector not that long ago and now you’re applying to be a manufacturer.

    1. A Plain-Dealing Villain*

      I think the training could be relevant to list, provided it wasn’t specifically test prep.

    2. Dizzy Steinway*

      I think this is really field-specific. Does that kind of training change much? Is it based on legislation that might be updated?

  94. hbc*

    Had to fire someone yesterday. He had a fairly bad attitude (none of his mistakes were major or his fault, any ideas about improving procedures involved moving his work to someone else, etc.) and we had talked about what he needed to change, but it was still really hard. This was the third time I’ve fired someone but the first time I’ve done it and not felt immediate relief after the fact. Not because I’ve been cold before, but the last two people made it as easy as possible. There’s no “when do I know for sure?” when someone threatens to have her husband come in and beat up her supervisor.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’ve been fired/laid off myself and know that I’m not the person suffering the most here. It’s just…I’m hoping I start sleeping through the night again soon. And simultaneously hoping this never gets too easy.

    1. SubmarineSue*

      Based on what you’ve written, I’m wondering if the reason you’re not feeling relief/closure is because of this sentence: “none of his mistakes were major or his fault…” Firing someone for being a bad fit is certainly valid, but it can sometimes feel like a personality conflict, which is less cut and dry and more difficult to improve then say someone who is not performing their job well.

      1. Allypopx*

        I think that was meant to be an example of the bad attitude, as in the employee didn’t take responsibility for his mistakes, not that they genuinely weren’t his fault.

      2. hbc*

        Yeah, I think you’re right. (Though I meant he never thought his mistakes were his fault–they weren’t fireable, but own them, you know?) Plus, some of the pressure I had to Do It Now was based on people who had completely unreasonable viewpoints. My boss was all “When he came to [other site], he didn’t explore at all, and just hung around his hotel room.” Someone else was talking about him being drunk because he had bloodshot eyes due to allergy issues.

        So I had a pile of things that individually weren’t a NoGo and the fact that he’d never be able to recover from both true and false impressions people had. Realistically, he wasn’t going to fix the real problems in any kind of timeframe, but it bugs me that the fake problems shifted my approach.

    2. Allypopx*

      It does fade after awhile when you accept you’ve made the choice that was best for you and the company, even if it was hard. It sounds like you did your due diligence trying to get it to work and sometimes it just doesn’t. Your last sentence is super true though. You never want it to be easy.

    3. Bonky*

      I’m sorry. It’s the absolute worst. I had to deal with one a few weeks ago, and it doesn’t get easier no matter how many times I’ve had to do it. The very early ones from about ten years ago, before I’d got my head around running effective PIPs and making sure they could see it coming, were by far the worst, but it’s still horrible.

      My experience is that the feelings are a bit different for every person you fire, and that sometimes you feel incredibly sorry for them and frustrated that they couldn’t pull it together, sometimes you’re just outright relieved, sometimes you’re angry that they wouldn’t work through whatever improvement plan you had in place, sometimes you’re angry with yourself for getting the hire so wrong in the first place – there’s no single “right” reaction, and no single overarching response you should or will feel.

      One thing we brought in recently at my company has made the experience a bit less awful for everybody concerned, especially when we’re letting people go because they were struggling with the job rather than because they were awful to work with. We’ve been buying a couple of sessions with a careers counsellor for those people, once they’re on notice (and we do try to give one to three months’ notice where possible – we’re in the UK, where that’s not unusual); it’s been really helpful in easing their transition to somewhere else, and it’s been very noticeable that doing this keeps the relationship between the person leaving and our company much, much more cordial, to the point where some people who have been fired have been recommending our company to people in their network, putting their friends forward for jobs here etc.

  95. a girl has no name*

    I need some advice. I started by entry level job at a nonprofit right out of college. I was a intern for 8 months and then hired full-time in a different role same department. I have been in my current role for three years. I have asked about a raise and a title change to move beyond entry level and it doesn’t look likely at my current employer. I am thinking about searching elsewhere. I just want to see if my expectations are reasonable. How long should I expect to stay entry-level? I would like more responsibility and a chance to move up, but I don’t know what that looks like since I’m so early in my career.

    1. Bree*

      I work in non-profit, and it’s very reasonable to be thinking about moving out of an entry level role after 3 years. Financial limits at your current employer might be why they can’t promote you, but you should feel fine about applying for non-entry-level roles you have the skills and qualifications for at other organizations.

    3. Bluebell*

      Yes, it’s totally reasonable to move on after three years. Have you talked with your boss about building your skills and any sort of professional development? That could be helpful just to hear her response. And some bosses might prefer to be somewhat helpful as you transition to a new position, especially if they know there’s nowhere for you to go at the current company.

  96. Haru*

    I got a connect to people you know linkedin emails recently, and it showed the profile of one of the staff I manage (I’m responsible for training her, asssigning work, and writing her annual evaulation, but only my manager has the authority to fire her). She had put a higher job title than her actual one on linkedin. Normally, I probably wouldn’t even notice, but its her annual evaluation soon and normally, she would be promoted next year (usually people get promoted to next level in 2 years for her job position), but right now she’s not even meeting the expectation of her current role.

    And she has lied about other things for work. Is this none of my business though? Its her account. It does make me question if everything on her resume is true.

    1. Notorious MCG*

      Well, it’s your business that she’s not meeting expectations and that she will likely be expecting a promotion. You need to step in before her evaluation to let her know that she isn’t meeting expectations and to create a plan to get her on the right path. As for the LinkedIn thing, it can certainly color your opinion of her and how you perceive some things she does. Also, considering that it’s a public network meant for linked professionals (like you two are) it’s not out of bounds to say “Hey, you popped up in my recommended connections and I noticed you put down {Wrong Title} instead of {Correct Title}. What’s that about?”

      1. Haru*

        Thank you for the advice! I have talked to her about the things she needs to improve repeatedly, but its up to my manager if she gets promoted or not and I think most likely he’s going to pick the easier option. From her point of view, I can see why she’s not improving ( her work quality will improve temporarily but its not consistent) because there’s no consequences to her actions.

  97. CA Admin*

    One of the Executive Assistants I work with is a total mess. As someone with multiple family members in recovery, I’m about 95% sure that she has a serious drinking problem (I’m not going to go into all the reasons, since that would take a novel, please just believe me that I know what I’m talking about) and it’s seriously affecting her reliability and ability to do her job. She shows up to every shift late, even when she’s supposed to cover our reception area in the mornings. She calls in sick every 2-4 weeks like clockwork, leaving the rest of us to pick up the slack. She shows up late even when she has guests coming in before her usual start time that she’s supposed to get in early to take care of them. She’s also terrible about communicating, so we all end up putting out fires from her not showing up once we realize she’s not here–we don’t get a heads up or anything.

    I’m at my wits’ end. Our boss refuses to manage her. The partner she supports likes her enough to not want to deal with replacing her (he’s had 5 assistants in 2.5 years and feels awkward about his terrible hiring). The rest of her team can’t stand her. The rest of the admin team can’t stand her either, except for her one BFF who doesn’t have to back her up or deal with her unreliability.

    I’ve set expectations with my own projects about what she needs to do and where she needs to show up. I’ve given her candid feedback when her unreliability has affected me, my team, or my projects. She always apologizes and promises to do better, but they’re empty words because it’s the same thing again the next day.

    I’m torn because I’ve seen what it’s like for an alcoholic and their family to go through addiction issues before they make it to recovery. I want to have empathy. But she’s such a drag on the firm and my productivity that I want to scream.

    1. What can I do to remind myself to have more empathy and not judge her so harshly?
    2. Is there anything I can be doing to make sure her unreliability doesn’t impact me or my projects (keeping in mind that I don’t have any managerial authority to assign projects or personnel)?
    3. Is there anything more I can do to impose consequences when she fucks up on my projects when I’m not her manager?

    1. ..Kat..*

      1. Don’t fall into the trap of being wonderful and empathetic with her. She should be the one to suffer the consequences of her actions.
      2. Update your boss when she is the one holding back your work. Alison has great suggestions in other posts on how to do this. Essentially, you don’t complain about her, you tell your boss the negative impact she is causing (such as late completion of a project), and ask your boss how she would like you to handle it.
      3. See #2. Sadly, you don’t get to impose consequences, just give your boss the results of her inactions and ask how your boss would like you to handle it.

      Maybe do a weekly status email with your boss about all your projects. Include information such as ‘Drucila said she would get me the data by x date.’ Then each week, add a new update. ‘ Drucila’s new completion date is x.’

  98. Anon right now*

    Help me be patient!

    I left a job about 11 weeks ago that I had had for over 10 years. I did not have another job lined up, but I thought through any decision carefully and made sure to save up money so I could get by for a few months without a job. I also have a supportive spouse whose income was more than double mine last year and is more than enough for us to live on. I’ve applied for lots of jobs, and have had several interviews. One interview was about 5 weeks ago. At the time it felt like it went fantastically well, but since then it’s been radio silence from them. There was a huge event in their program the week after my interview, so I sort of expected not to hear back immediately. I have another interview with another agency next week. I plan to apply for another position today that I recently saw posted.

    In the meantime, I am able to do some freelance-type work, so there’s that. If the jobs I have applied for don’t pan out, I can keep doing this, at least for now. The kind of work I do is the sort of thing I can do on my own, but I’d prefer not to.

    Oh, and I also just found out I am very newly pregnant. I haven’t even had a doctor’s appointment yet, that’s how new. This is obviously not an ideal time for this, but that’s the way it goes, I guess.

    I am feeling very anxious about the fact I am not working like I was and that it feels like it’s taking forever. The job I just left was my first job out of grad school, so I haven’t been in the hiring cycle in years, and when I was, I was still in school. I am also anxious about potentially starting a new job but then having to take family leave in the late fall. I won’t have been there very long. Any words of wisdom anyone can share would be fantastic!

  99. Ayla K*

    Lots going on this week! For those who haven’t been following my saga, we had big layoffs in January (including my manager) and are now on a hiring freeze. I’m now doing 3 people’s jobs and the salary increase they offered me is laughably small. (It’s basically just a COL increase, which no one else is getting this year.) I was thinking of sticking it out a few more months and starting to apply in early summer, but three recruiters have reached out to me in the last week through LinkedIn and I’ve been on some great interviews.

    I talked to the VP of my department and casually asked what the plan is if people leave – with the hiring freeze, will they be replaced? His response was basically that it’s a case-by-case, but most likely people won’t be replaced and he’s just hoping no one leaves.

    If I were to get an offer, it would up my salary by at least $10-20k, along with presenting some cool new challenges (I’ve been feeling pretty bored in my current role.) I know it’s never a good time to leave a job, but this seems like a particularly bad time and I’m struggling with that idea a bit. On the other hand, I really can’t stay here more than another year without significantly hindering my own career growth. Any advice or commiseration would be great!

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      If he’d asked you “what will you do if you get laid off,” and you said you just hoped it wouldn’t happen, do you think that would make him feel bad about laying you off?

      1. Ayla K*

        Yeah I realize he cannot force me to stay (just like I couldn’t force them to keep me on in your situation) but I still feel bad about it. I do a LOT here, and while I do have procedure documents in place for everything, it would be tough on my team. I’m trying not to think about that so much, though, because I know I need to move on eventually. It’s just a sucky situation.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          No, I don’t mean he can’t force you to stay. I mean, if he wanted to lay you off, he wouldn’t feel like he shouldn’t do it just because you need the job. And if you need to get another job, don’t feel like you shouldn’t do it just because he needs you. Neither of you is bound to that kind of loyalty.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      You do not owe them work at below-market rates just because it’s a “bad time.” Do what’s right for you, and they’ll figure it out. Or not. But that’s on them, not on you.

    4. PollyQ*

      “I know it’s never a good time to leave a job, but this seems like a particularly bad time”

      You mean a bad time for them, yes? I would give that precisely no weight. Make your career decisions based on what’s good for you. (And FWIW, a company that’s had massive layoffs, a hiring freeze, and can’t/won’t pay its employees market salaries may not have any good times to come.)

      1. Ayla K*

        I do mean for them, yes. And you’re totally right – all those reasons are my main driver for considering leaving. I’m not really being challenged anymore and there are zero opportunities for growth. I just can’t help but feel bad for leaving the team in the lurch, since, as I said, I’m doing 3 people’s jobs right now.

  100. Lady Julian*

    Got turned down from a PhD program I’d applied to. I’m really bummed. I spent literally months working on the application, and while I know that acceptance/rejection is not actually a test of my intelligence, it feels as though I’ve been certified, “dumb.” I’m posting here just to vent a little, since I kept the fact that I was applying private from most of the people I know IRL.

    1. Perpetua*

      I’m sorry to hear that, I think that rejection is always tough.

      I hope you can think of something that feels like self-care to you and then go do it. :)

      To me, self-care can also mean accepting that I’m feeling bad at the moment and that it’s okay to feel that way. If I wanted something and put effort into it, then didn’t get it for whatever reason, I’m allowed to feel bummed or sad or angry or disappointed, etc. It might seem common sense to you, but I’ve only recently started successfully APPLYING that in my life, not just knowing that on a rational level.

      1. Ultraviolet*

        This is great advice, and I am right there with you on the last paragraph. I still keep catching myself trying to talk myself out of feeling bad rather than just feeling it, but I’m getting better about it and I think it’s really important.

    3. AnonAcademic*

      I did not get into any Ph.D. programs until my third round of applications, but I did get in eventually and I finished my doctorate in 2015 .Rejection does not mean you are dumb. In fact, academia is full of rejection and even the most senior people have papers, grants, etc. rejected all the time. Even Nobel Prize winners get rejections. Rejections are an opportunity to reevaluate your approach before trying again, they are not a reflection on you as a person.

    4. Ultraviolet*

      I’m really sorry to hear that!

      If you think you’re up for reapplying next year, I recommend calling or emailing the department to ask whether there’s something you can do to strengthen your application for next time. (Even though emailing is often better in general, calling might be a good idea here because sometimes they’re cautious about putting these things in writing. If you know the name of a professor on the admissions committee, ideally you could email them to schedule a quick call. If you don’t have a name, you can probably get one from the department’s main office.) There might be something relatively simple you could do, like improve your GRE scores. Or maybe you’ll find that your reference letters didn’t convey the qualities they would have liked to see. I recommend making the call/email soon, while everything is relatively fresh in their minds.

      (Disclaimer: that has worked well for people in the past at my STEM department at my school. I don’t know how broadly applicable it is, and it could even be a faux pas in some fields.)

      For what it’s worth, even though it sounds like a cliché, there really always are a bunch of highly qualified applications and in the end, some of the choices about which to admit and which to reject are nearly arbitrary.

      1. JustaTech*

        I did this (talking to the department) after I got rejected from the university I was working for. They told me it was a combination of their first year accepting a common application (so way more applicants) and the use of one word in my essay. It wasn’t the wrong word, but it wasn’t the perfect word.
        I hid in the parking garage and cried.

        In the end it was way more the common application than that one word.

        1. Ultraviolet*

          I can’t imagine how it felt to hear that about your imperfect word! Wow. Not surprised that the number of applicants was the real issue, but still!

        2. Lady Julian*

          Oh, my. That’s awful. I cried anyway learning that I was rejected, so I can’t imagine what I would have done if I’d learned that my application came down to a single word.

  101. jamlady*

    Anyone remember that state interview I thought went horribly? Well they gave me a conditional offer this week. Which would be great except I won’t find out any salary details for a month and the salary range goes from $25k below my current salary and 5k above my current salary. It’s government so there’s no negotiating. I asked about benefits and was told I would find out on my first day. None of this is making sense to me. Plus I have to do a medical exam for the offer to become firm. Anyone here have experience with government hiring? I’m kind of weirded out right now lol

    1. animaniactoo*

      “I’m sorry, I cannot possibly consider the position without a firm understanding of what my salary and benefits would be.”

      You don’t have negotiating room, but that’s ridiculous. They’re asking you to take this sight unseen on what you WOULD be getting.

    3. Notorious MCG*

      Okay, you can negotiate with a government salary. They’re more rigid, but you can. Also THAT IS INSANE that they would expect someone to start working without knowing how much they would be paid. Say that you cannot accept unless you know what the offered compensation is.

    4. jamlady*

      Ok y’all, I’m dying of laughter right now.

      I called HR back today and spoke with someone else – I told her what I was told yesterday and she was like “WAIT WHAT?! Who did you talk to?!”

      Turns out they gave a group of offers to a new entry level HR person, who was supposed to say “conditional offer, depending on receipt of transcripts and a medical exam” and “your offer letter with your pay range will be emailed to you within one week with details about benefits” – the newbie apparently skipped over that second part and got all flustered when I started asking questions.

      As a result, I got an offer letter in my inbox from the lead HR rep today with info about how the process will move forward (the gave me a pay range – highest class offered, so I’m pleased, and I will get the official offer with exact salary benefits included after I complete the medical exam, at which point we negotiate). She also mentioned a few things like a pension, a year of job protected maternity leave with 6 months full pay, etc. in the email just to give me an idea.

      So that’s way better. Still concerned about that medical exam though…

      1. Batshua*

        I had an exam for my government job. The doctor diagnosed me as short. He literally said “your feet don’t reach the floor” and prescribed a footrest for my workspace.

        It’ll be fine.

            1. jamlady*

              I’m short and round – I require a low desk with bean bag chairs and a circular office space rather than a cubicle.

        2. Lady Julian*

          Seconding on the hilarious. :) I took a speech class once, and the professor stressed on us the importance of using a footrest if our feet don’t reach the floor when we’re sitting. I thought this was just the dumbest thing ever. I’ll slouch a bit if I want to, thanks.

          1. Dizzy Steinway*

            Why is it the dumbest thing to not ruin your back?

            Osteopaths are costly. Trust me.

            1. Lady Julian*

              Well, if you want to use a footrest, be my guest! I’m certainly not going to laugh at you. I just didn’t feel like piling textbooks underneath my feet and found it uncomfortable.

        3. ..Kat..*

          This happened to me, but some managers in the company contacted me asking about how this would negatively affect my performance and wanted to discuss my shortness in more detail. They were SERIOUS!

  102. first time negotiator*

    I’m about 3 days away from being offered a job (I had a verbal offer but the job changed dramatically from what I interviewed for so we are taking time to make sure it’s still what I want)
    When I finish my questions about the role itself and ask the couple about benefits (transportation since they’re part of the metro area but technically a different state) how do I approach asking for more money? Just as “you indicated the salary was x, I was hoping for y and in my research that seems reasonable. Is that a possibility?” and then sit there or do I keep talking and explaining why I want that.
    I’ve never been in a position where I felt I could negotiate before and the role is with a mentor who is the one I would normally ask for tips.

  103. DevAssist*

    Happy Friday everyone!

    I’m looking to pick up a side hustle or two, but something like retail won’t really work with my schedule. Does anyone here have any ideas? Also, I’m looking at trying to start freelance writing (through Upwork) and was wondering if anyone has experience with that platform? I’d love to hear from other side-hustlers.

    1. Sugar of lead*

      Babysitting worked well for me when I was younger. Web sites like Sittercity let you create a profile and apply for jobs online.

      1. Natalie*

        In my area, at least, it’s incredibly hard to get a job bartending if you don’t have previous bartending experience. YMMV

        1. Cat, not Copy*

          That’s interesting! I have my bartender’s license, got a few gigs because of it, and in my experience I noticed it doesn’t really make a difference. My previous employers have looked more for food-service experience than bartending experience.

          Speaking of food-service… maybe catering would be a good side gig? I haven’t done it personally but do know people who have on weekends and such.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I’ve been toying with the idea of working for StitchFix. They require at least 15/hours week, though.

    4. Temperance*

      What about banquet service? It’s not every weekend, but the money is good and honestly, I loved the work. The local casino near me also has on-call service shifts, so you wouldn’t be working every weekend.

    5. Receptionist Barbie*

      I waitress two nights a week. I am lucky enough to work in a city with tons of great restaurants and a higher minimum wage, so I make upwards of $40/hr on a decent night.

      Plus, my restaurant is great and the staff and management are amazing! It helps me survive the drudgery of my day job, honestly, despite being much more physical and high intensity work.

  104. Sunshine Brite*

    I’m a clinical social worker and am finding myself worried about future job prospects. Most of the programs here have a mix of federal/state funding and with likely cuts in funding sources there’ll be more competition for positions overall. I’ve been starting to think about changing careers, but I’m good at what I do (right now in county mental health; want to move to community mental health at some point, maybe do therapy next). I’m also doing public loan forgiveness and that’s important unless I get a huge raise (about $58k in public loans left). I’m at about $55k right now which is in the top 60% in my area, but only on the 2nd step in my current position. However, my current position is also unionized and has a contract in place through 2018.

    My degrees are a history BA and MSW. Any private sector positions that I should consider switching to? Major skills to build? Other career paths to think about? – I thought about looking into going back for data analysis or pharmacist. I know it wouldn’t make me as happy as working with people with mental health problems/other disabilities closely, but practicality has been weighing on me lately since I’ve always had the breadwinner status. My partner is a teacher also considering private sector work.

    1. Denise*

      Two thoughts- do you want to get your CRC? There is a tract you’d qualify for (but the pay may not be as high, it’d keep you working government). Also, with a CDMS you could do worker’s comp medical claims management.

      Also, look at the local colleges and see what they have to offer in counseling, disability services, academic advisers.

      (Now, if you live in the Daytona/Orlando area and have job leads- please let me know. My husband is considering relocating down that way)

      1. Sunshine Brite*

        I’ve thought about switching over to insurance, but I’d have a hard time denying claims. I currently say yes/no to funding and sometimes the Nos cut deep. Around here, voc rehab would be a paycut and I think I could do it without additional certification. I’m in MN.

        My friend did send me a job lead at the college she works but that’s still a public position (but sounds cool and I’m working on that this weekend). Need to write a CV for the first time so it’ll take me a bit.

    2. Batshua*

      I don’t know where you are, but even with the federal hiring freeze, the VA is hiring in a large number of places.

  105. Tragic The Gathering*

    Need some advice or perspective here. I work in admissions for a large, public university. Our office culture seems to be best described as an ever escalating tornado of things turning into “a thing.”

    I don’t know if it’s just the right stew of personalities (we have about 30 recruiters so we’re by nature big, outgoing, vocal people) or if there is something that can be changed in how we operate, but if something in your area goes slightly wrong and you’re not the first person to realize it or god forbid you’re out of the office or miss an email or text and someone else has to deal with it, it instantly becomes A THING that swirls around the office going up and down the chain until you have that constant feeling that you just walked into a room where people just stopped talking about you.

    I just don’t know how to fix this culture – it feels like it can’t be fixed and might be just how it is, so how do you work in this environment successfully? It’s difficult to function when you feel like you’re walking on eggshells all the time but you can’t quite pinpoint which person or who you’re walking on eggshells around, or what you may or may not have done to set off the tornado.

    I know this is a bit of a vent, but has anyone been successful in this type of atmosphere?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I also work in admissions at a large public university. Our culture was very much like that when I started, but things have changed for the better in a lot of ways.

      One thing that helped: gossipy people who didn’t like their jobs are no longer here. The bulk of our staff are super outgoing but polite. Management is good at deflecting conversations that COULD turn gossipy, and redirecting conversations when they start going there.

      I survived the first few months by keeping my head down and refusing to engage in non-work-related conversations. As new staff rolled in, the us vs. them culture dissipated, much to my relief. I adore my team now and we get along really well.

      Not sure if this helps, but I do want to offer my commiseration!

      1. Tragic The Gathering*

        Thank you! I do appreciate it. I’ll admit I can definitely get caught up in the drama/gossip/whatever you want to call it and I need to do better about that on my own. We have recently had some new hires and I’m hoping that things will slowly start to improve.

  106. Lynne879*

    I have to vent: I work at a small, local furniture store that has a super generic name.

    And when I mean super generic, I mean there are multiple other small local furniture stores in the country that have the exact same name as us. Sometimes we sell the same products, but we are all completely separate entities that have no connection to each other.

    There also was, at some point, a furniture manufacturer that not only has the same generic name as we do, but also had the EXACT SAME LOGO. This manufacturer, who I will call Company A, I was told, went out of business.

    There is furniture store, I’ll call them Company B, on the western part of the US that once sold products from Company A. They get phone calls from customers who purchased Company A products from them about getting replacement parts, or how to put together a bed, etc. Instead of telling customers that Company A went out of business, Company B gives customers OUR PHONE NUMBER because we have the EXACT SAME NAME AND LOGO of Company A. Company B KNOWS we are not Company A but they DO NOT CARE.

    I know this, because we have tried to contact them dozens of times and the one time we finally did manage to talk to someone, they were like “Oh we’re sorry, we thought you were the same company.” That is a LIE because it CLEARLY STATES on our website that we are a single, retail store on the East Coast. Company B DOES NOT CARE that they are intentionally misdirecting customers elsewhere because they don’t want to deal with them.

    So we constantly get customers calling us for replacement parts or information thinking we’re someone else. When we get calls like these, I genuinely don’t know what to tell them. “I’m sorry, you called the wrong store”? “You’re looking for Company A and we’re actually Company C. We have the same names but we’re 2 different companies. Company A went out of business & Company B have you the wrong phone number”?

    What are your thoughts??

    1. Sugar of lead*

      My thoughts are that you guys need a new logo and possibly name. Short term, devise a script you can use on the phone with people. Keep it short and sweet. Try a few different ones to see what works best, and when you find one you’re happy with, write it down and keep it by the phone. As for getting Company B to stop sending people to you, they don’t seem reasonable, so I doubt reason will work. The only thing that comes to mind is some kind of legal action, but that’s a giant headache no one wants.

      1. Lynne879*

        As much as I would love a new name & logo, the store I work in has been in business for 40+ years. Changing it now would be more confusing for the customers we already have. Most of the stores that all have the same name as us are in different states in different parts of the country, so it doesn’t affect us too much with our core customers (middle class people in the county).

        I do like your idea of devising a script! That is very helpful.

    2. Chickaletta*

      Turn it into a business opportunity. A few options off the top of my head:

      1) Rebrand. This is the obvious solution. You mention that your store’s name is very common so this would help you differentiate from other companies besides company A.

      2) Turn those calls into sales. You’ve got customers practically falling in your lap. Be honest and say that you’re not company A, but they have gone out of business and you’d like to help the customer by selling them the part they need. You’d have to figure out the shipping logistics and all, but if you can figure out a business model for these people then cha-ching.

      3) Propose a partnership with company B. They don’t have a partnership with company A anymore, they have nowhere else to send their customers, why not turn it into a source of revenue for you?

      1. Chaordic One*

        I like Chickaletta’s thinking. Maybe you should start carrying and selling replacement parts for those products from company A that people are asking for?

        1. Lynne879*

          There’s a bunch of reasons why this wouldn’t work.

          1) Company A most likely went out of business, therefore we wouldn’t have access to replacement parts.

          2) To get replacement parts for your furniture, you can only get them from the manufacturer you bought it from, because they are the only ones that will fit or at least will guarantee to work. For ex: Replacement parts on an Ikea bed won’t work on a bed from Ashley Furniture.

          3) Even if we DID have replacement parts from Company A, they probably had hundreds of different products they offered, like most manufacturers. It’s impossible for us to have every single replacement part for every single product they ever had.

          So the customers who need replacement parts from Company A for their furniture CAN’T use parts from other manufacturers. But Company A most likely went out of business, so the customers we get are pretty much stuck. There’s no way for us, a small family-owned furniture store on the East Coast that is getting calls from people on the other side of the US, to turn a profit from them because we are not able to give them what they need.

  107. Anonythingy*

    So on my therapist’s recommendation I am taking a brief leave (probably a week) from work to go to a day treatment program (intensive cognitive behavioral therapy for anxiety & depression). I am lucky to be in a very supportive environment- I work in an agency that supports individuals with mental illness and developmental disabilities. I had already disclosed to my boss a few weeks ago that my mental health was affecting my work and I was doing my best to get caught up on the things I’ve let pile up. When I told him I needed leave and why his response was “good for you. You should be proud of yourself for making a decision to take care of yourself.” I said “ohhh and also I already have plane tickets and will be on vacation for a week basically right after. SOoo the things I’m behind on… I’m still going to be behind on”. He said “it’s ok. Don’t worry about it. I’m not worried about it.” I also have spoken to some trusted coworkers about it and learned that at least 3 of them have attended this exact day program before.

    So basically it’s absolute best case scenario and I’m
    super lucky. But I don’t have a spot in the program until next Friday and so I’m trying to do what I can until then. My jerkbrain still is in extra panic mode— like boss just does not fully realize how terrible I really am. My coworkers are understanding but also need me to try to take care of some things before I go out. There are external deadlines. People are telling me it will be ok but… jerkbrain.

    Obviously if I were going to be at work rather than getting a higher level of care for myself that week would not be the week when I magically caught up on all the things I’ve been too paralyzed to complete. But…. jerkbrain. Um. Thank you for reading.

    1. JMegan*

      I’m so glad to hear you have a supportive boss! Good luck on your program next week – I’d love to hear more about it if you’re comfortable sharing.

    2. Bluebell*

      Good for you. A friend of mine did the day treatment week away for anxiety and depression and felt it was really helpful. She told her boss it was vacation because she didn’t want to disclose.

  108. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    My boss announced in our team meeting (me + coworker + boss is the whole department) that the company was giving merit raises this year in the range of 2.5% and that they will go into effect at the end of this month. I assume this means that we are both getting this same pay increase. However, I wanted to argue for a more significant increase, as I’ve taken on a lot of new responsibilities this year. Of course, I didn’t want to do this in front of my coworker. Is there any way to raise the issue now? Is it normal for managers to announce the raise % (supposedly merit, not COLA) in a department meeting? It seemed really odd to me.

    1. SubmarineSue*

      In the range of 2.5% could mean that there’s some flexibility in terms of how much of a raise one might get. Not sure how large your company is, but I’ve found that when an increase/bonus like this is mentioned, each department gets a pot of money and how it’s distributed is at the boss’s discretion. As a small department, he might have been given a tidy sum that is not overly flexible, meaning giving you a big raise, would mean your coworker gets a very small one and while you may be deserving of more money, that doesn’t mean your coworker is deserving of not very much. It sounds to me as though what you really want is a raise and that’s different than a bonus/merit. If you’re taking on more responsibility that’s something that should be incorporated into your salary, not into your merit increase.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Hmm. I assumed that the annual merit increase *was* the salary adjustment (i.e. incorporated into my salary). I’m not asking for a promotion (yet), but I was hoping for something like 3-3.5%, rather than 2.5%.
        But yes–I don’t want my coworker to get less if I get more, it’s just that my job has changed more over the course of the year than hers has.

  109. Crystal Lake*

    Is it common to post everyone in the company’s jobs and make them apply for their own job (or perhaps another one they are interested in)? Has anyone ever had that happen to them?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Is your company reorganizing? That happens a lot here — when our organization goes through a re-org and, say, cut the number of Teapot Analysts from 5 to 3, they have the 5 folks apply for the 3 positions.

      1. Crystal Lake*

        They are downsizing, so a re-org is in order. In the past they have just laid off people.

    2. Bonky*

      It happened to a couple of departments in my husband’s own company. A few people were so offended that they resigned rather than reapply for their own roles. It was done as part of a downsizing effort.

      1. Drew*

        I went through a downsizing where we were all told that if multiple people wanted the same position, they would have to re-interview for it, but also that if people decided it was time to move on, they would be given a decent severance so it wasn’t a hardship for them to do so.

        Only one department ended up with competition for roles; they had enough people decide to leave in the other departments that they could fill their positions without any competition. (And yes, they did offer the same severance to the people who were told they weren’t being retained; they were as fair about it as could be.)

        I admit to taking a little guilty pleasure in the fact that my team was the only one not to lose any positions in the downsizing, but we were at that time immersed in three major projects and we really couldn’t lose anyone if we were going to hit our deadlines. It still felt good to know our hard work was getting recognized.

    3. NaoNao*

      I’ve never heard of *all* the jobs being posted–how big is this company? Are you merging or being acquired? What is the reason behind this?
      Leaving off that, here’s my advice:
      Get not only your resume, but your list of accomplishments, kudos, projects completed, savings to the company, etc etc together.
      See if you can find out who will be interviewing you and ensure that you treat them with extra courtesy and respect in the next few weeks–no complaining about the work or job.
      Go to HR and just ask “What’s going on here?”

  110. Bloop*

    So back in January my job hired a new person to replace me in my old role because I was moving to a new position within my team. I was so excited to move up in the ranks and gain more responsibility. Unfortunately the new hire, Jamie, ended up being terrible! Their technical skills were poor, they had a bratty, entitled attitude and spotty attendance. Even though I didn’t like Jamie, I did try to help them master the job but ultimately they didn’t seem interested in learning. When my manager tried to formally have Jamie retrained, they threw a fit in front of everyone.

    Anyway, Jamie quit last week by no call no showing several days in a row. I had to work two extra shifts to cover for them. I’ve now been officially moved back into my old role while we look for someone new. On the one hand I’m relieved Jamie is gone. I’m also disappointed though.

  111. Confused*

    My 52 year old boss does not have good boundaries. The feeling he favors the shift he came from and still plays bb, helps guys from that shift move, goes out to drink with is constantly in our office. In addition, he’ll admit that some of his antics have gotten the attention of HR. Being a government job, he’s got 4 years until he’s got his 35 years in and he can leave.

    He’s hired a young lady two years out of college. He’s constantly relaying information for our shift through her. He spends half the day in her office talking/chit chatting behind closed doors. She gets to delay parts of her job, fall behind on other parts of her job, and honestly doesn’t show the judgment needed to be in the position we are.

    Over lunch yesterday, it’s come to my attention that I’m the only women on the shift not to speak up and that the relationship between the two has caused other departments to become concerned. I’m the most senior of the women who occupy the position we do. I’ve seen my boss’s behavior run two other women off (another women used the flirtation to work from home and watch her kids at the same time, coming in one day a week). He went as far as to start the paperwork to one women, who had less than a year experience in our position, our shift leader.

    What do I do? I’ve kept my head down and attempted to look quietly for other positions but that hasn’t panned out so far.

    1. Notorious MCG*

      Talk to your boss’s boss about your concerns! If other women have spoken up, go around to them and see if they want to go to your boss’s boss with you so that you are seen as coming from a larger group. Also, as the most senior woman you are likely the one with the most power to enact change.

  112. Red Reader*

    Resume question. I was working on the vanilla teapots team for my organization for a year and a half, then was promoted to be a team lead for the cinnamon cream pitchers team. However, salaried employees in my division (which I now am) have the opportunity to work up to 20 hours per pay period in a supplemental position for another team, paid straight pay at an hourly rate on a separate paycheck from their regular salaried position pay. So in addition to working full-time with cinnamon cream pitchers, I also still work part-time about 10 hours a week with vanilla teapots doing the exact same thing as I did before. Currently I have that listed as so:

    Team Lead, Cinnamon Cream Pitchers – August 2016 to current
    (…)
    Polisher, Vanilla Teapots – January 2015 to current (continued part-time after August 2016 promotion)

    Is there a better way to word that, or am I good?

  113. *TMA*

    I’ve been in the running for another job at my company (been through three interviews). I am currently exempt and this position is non-exempt. Also this position has more admin requirements, but I will also be doing some project management. HR just called and said that I should expect an offer. She explained it is a lateral move because I’m going from what our company classifies a “professional” job to an “admin” job, so I will be working at the same salary.

    On one hand, this new position gets me back into the work that I used to be doing and the work I want to be doing long term. But at the same time, I feel weird taking a new job without an increase in salary (to be clear we have regular yearly merit increases, and HR said I would be eligible for more than just the once-a-year merit increases).

    Basically I’d like advice. Should every new job come with an increase in salary, or is it OK to accept a lateral move and get back into the work I want to be doing long-term?

    1. Always Anon*

      I’ve not only made lateral moves during my career, but also once moved backward and had a pay cut in order to align myself for future forward movement. If you feel the work is what you want to be doing and the compensation is appropriate for the responsibility level and market for the role, don’t let the lack of a pay increase impact your decision.

    2. NW Mossy*

      I just accepted a lateral transfer with no increase for exactly this reason. Granted, I just got a merit raise in my soon-to-be-ex role that will follow me to the new role, but no additional $ just because of this change.

      The biggest reason I took the transfer was that there’s a better path forward to senior leadership in the future, which is what I really want. It will also help to build my experience (bigger team, more remote directs, more project work) that will line me up well to make that leap. My pay growth may be a bit curtailed for a while, but it’ll be worth it in the end.

  114. Chickaletta*

    Mostly a vent: Last year I gave up a very part-time (6 hrs/wk) non-profit admin job because I wanted to focus on my freelance business and searching for full time work. The Board didn’t take the position very seriously, they’re very lax for a board and didn’t understand that even their part-time administrator position required a person with administrative skills beyond knowing how to respond to email. I encouraged them to post the job description on employment boards and the newspaper, conduct interviews, and hire a person with a business degree or at least a few years in an administrative assistant position with bookkeeping since they’d be doing the job pretty much without any supervision. They didn’t listen and ended up hiring a college student with no administrative knowledge. I spent a day training her, told her I was there if she had any questions, and handed over the job. I never heard from her again and assumed that she had figured it out.

    Fast forward to last month. The Board asked me to complete their IRS 990 again because I know how to do it and I’m a lot cheaper than an accountant. I requested account balances and a detailed income expense statement from the new admin, and lo and behold, she hadn’t been doing any bookkeeping at all. She sent me the bank statements and thought that would be enough. No bank reconcilliations, no posting to the chart of accounts, no record of what checks written to individuals were for. Nothing.

    Obviously, I’m not going to touch their 990. They can hire a professional accountant/tax preparer to deal with that mess. But, since one of my closest friends is now the Treasurer of the Board, I’m meeting with her next week to explain the consequences of not keeping accurate financial records and the responsibility the Board has to hold the administrator accountable and to track their finances.

    The student administrator is quitting in a month to go to med school, so I’ll also reiterate how important it is to hire someone with administrative knowledge and not just give it to a student – even one who’s smart enough to get into med school. I hope it sinks in this time (I made suggestions last year to not hire a student without administrative experience, but they didn’t listen). I come across this type of attitude towards administrative assistants too often where their skills are often unappreciated thinking that “anyone can do it”. Ugh. I hope they learn. They’re going to have to shell out a lot of money this year to get their tax return prepared, and probably next year too since their student administrator hasn’t been tracking financials for the first part of 2017 either.

    Had to get that off my chest.

  115. Sabine the Very Mean*

    I wanted to ask AAM a question that I hope doesn’t seem snotty–I just have always wondered: do you still work as a full-time manager in an organization? It seems like this blog is more than a full-time job in itself. Do you consult? Do you sit on your couch in your pajamas drinking wine while you answer our questions? Do you take little mini breaks at your day job like we do to answer our questions?

    1. Chickaletta*

      Yes to the last three.

      Not many doctors or construction workers on here, that’s for sure. It’s top heavy with desk job workers. I work from home and can get my work done in about 3-5 hours a day (since I don’t have meetings, reports, people to talk to, etc). The rest is filled with mucking around the house, amusing myself on the interwebs, and being here when my son comes home from school.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Nope, I quit my job and went to work for myself a few years back. I do still consult, but I’ve mostly stopped taking on new work and am trying to cut back to get myself down to a more reasonable workload.

      I do indeed sit on my couch in pajamas (drinking tea, not wine) while answering questions. And yes, I usually am doing other stuff during the day but then pop in here in between things to do comments, etc.

  116. Zoe Karvounopsina*

    What is the least professional email address you have ever seen in a professional context?

    I recently got an expenses request from ‘lil[nickname]’@gmail.com

    3. Sabine the Very Mean*

      I’ve got one to end all but I have replaced name of terrible 90’s band just to make the point and not print his real email address: Blink-182_93@aol.com

      This was a fellow new-hire at my current job. He was my age (30). He had an aol account.

      1. Audiophile*

        I might forgive the AOL email, if he’s using the free version. I’m now trying to think of terrible 90s band names.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      I recently had someone request access to a shared Google doc with an email address that was…*very* NSFW. It had to do with male anatomy.

    5. Anxa*

      This really isn’t the least professional, but when I was a college student I did a lot of worker with senior administration. Over the years I developed a pretty decent relationship with our college president, but his email address was nameofrodent* @ alma mater. One time we were in a meeting and I remember fighting a laughing smile because I was kind of picturing him as a small mammal in charge of a state university (it was a long meeting and I got bored).

      *this rodent had nothing to do with our mascot, either

  117. Resume Woes*

    I’m here to ask a question for my boyfriend as I know he is embarrassed to inquire about this himself.

    My boyfriend has been out of work for the past three years while he has been back in school pursuing a second degree. His first degree was in business, this new degree is in computer engineering. He has been applying for jobs for the past 4-6 weeks and so far has not heard anything. He received one phone call from someone wanting to clarify his graduation date, but that was it. He was feeling discouraged and I told him these things take time. I offered to review his resume to see if I could provide any additional feedback for him.

    I was mortified when I noticed glaring errors throughout his resume. There were a few typos and redundancies, and one big mistake under his education that said “Graduating Fall 2015,” when he actually graduated last fall (in 2016). I fixed the issues and sent his resume back to him. He’s embarrassed and upset because he paid someone to help him with his resume, and the guy obviously didn’t do his job.

    My boyfriend has sent his resume to many of the larger, well-known companies in our city, and he’s afraid he didn’t hear anything back because of the errors. Is he completely out of luck here? Is there any point in waiting a while and resubmitting his resume?

    1. *TMA*

      I don’t think he is completely out of luck. If he sees a new position at these companies, I think it is still worth applying and sending in the updated resume.

      Also, you’re right; job hunting does take time. FAR more time than people expect. For example in my last job hunt, it took me 6-7 months before I got an offer. I’m currently job hunting again, and it has taken 7 months (I’m waiting for an official offer right now).

    2. Anxa*

      I still make typos. No wonder I’m underemployed.

      That said, my boyfriend applied to his PhD program with the wrong year on his letter of intent.

    3. ..Kat..*

      The colleges I went to had ‘hiring centers ‘ for a few in demand degrees , such as computer engineering. The employers came to the college on specified days, and students could sign up for interview slots.

  118. Anon Accountant*

    So this week I finally lost it. I worked for a firm that my current firm bought out 3 years ago and my old boss is there unfortunately. He bullies me and others to do shady things for him and the other partners promise but won’t deliver.

    “Bob”, the shady partner, has been coaching me to take over a court case for him as his clients expert witness and commit perjury but not outright lying but instead saying “I can’t remember” or “I don’t know” when my testimonies won’t be beneficial to them.

    This week I finally snapped and told the managing partner I’m done and I can’t work for him anymore. He smoothed things over because it’s tax season but I’m done with this cluster.

    I don’t know what else to do but continue with the job search, leave and never look back. The other partners aren’t backing any of us up on these issues because Bob gets argumentative and they don’t want to deal with him.

  119. Lauren*

    Excluded from a leadership meeting … Cont’D.

    – I want to ask why I am the only AD not included. My direct boss (Joe) assumed that it is because I am the only one without a team (I manage 1 intern vs. anyone FT). I wonder if he was lying so I didn’t find out the truth. So another AD asked the group and told me about it, why is Lauren not in here? I love her for that. Apparently, it got super awkward and they said it is because Joe can speak for X discipline – and stumbled to the next topic. But, there are 3 ADs plus their SVP in this meeting – so why can’t he speak for that discipline??? Same goes for the other disciplines in the room. ADs with directors or higher ups that can speak for the discipline. I am the only one in the entire office at this level not included. ADs and above go to this meeting – I am the only one not invited and apparently its on purpose with a flimsy reason that contradicts why all other ADs are included.

    – At first I thought it was an oversight, clueless boy’s club not seeing that it is a big deal to me that I am the only one excluded when every other AD is in that meeting. Then I found out my awesome SVP is on these meetings too. That made me feel horrible – I always thought if he knew – he would speak up for me. It is possible that he doesn’t know since he calls in vs. comes to the office – and they usually say at the beginning – “you’ve got Chicago here” – he may think I am in there. So I working on that assumption until I know otherwise.

    – So I want to bring it up, because it is bothering me. I’ve decided that I should separate it from my review. But I am struggling past the bringing it up part.

    What action do I want to come out of telling my SVP? Do I want to force my way in? No. Do I want to shove it in the boy’s club’s face that they excluded me? Yes. But beyond that, I can’t think of a good outcome. If I am invited, I will then go to these meetings knowing I was not wanted or needed and purposely excluded. That apparently Joe can speak for me and my opinions. I’m completely deflated over this, and this recurring meeting is making me want to quit. It is just a reminder of all the other times I was excluded, invisible, ignored last year when I quit, but stayed. They didn’t want to promote me to AD before I reigned, but gave it to me to get me to stay. This meeting is a reminder of that – they gave me more money – but this meeting is a recurring reminder that it was just a fake title / promotion. I am not wanted nor needed at an AD level.

    The best outcome I can think of is a sincere apology if I do bring it up basically – “we suck and we are sorry, you should have been included all along” – then we all move forward. But I doubt that will happen, I suspect – I will get anger from my SVP on my behalf and he will strong arm the boy’s club into including me. Which makes him an awesome boss, but it still means that 3 of 4 of leadership team doesn’t think I deserve to be there. It is hard to think of the good things about this place, when I am part of an office that excludes me in this way. How can I stay at a company that has 3 0f the 4 leaders thinking I didn’t deserve AD in the first place?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Either fight the battle or get out.

      You have done a lot of thinking about this. Perhaps too much. You will kill your own spirit faster than these people will. Take back your power, whatever that means to you. Find a new job and leave. Or barge into the big boss’ office and say you want to be included in these meetings as they are part of your job.

      If you want to stay at this company it will involve forgetting what your peers think of you. You will have to decide what YOU think of you. Often times we get so involved in what others think we have totally lost sight of what we think of our own work. And you need to go back to what you think of your own work. The only people who have to be satisfied are YOU and the boss.

      Since that one boss is supportive,I might try staying and fighting. Now. I don’t mean actual fighting. I mean standing up for me in a proactive and professional manner. It’s not a waste of time to learn/develop this skill, we use it often enough.

      If you can’t muster the determination to go talk to the boss, then your other choices are staying and dying a little each day, or looking for a new job.
      Out of respect for your own self, pick between talking to the boss or leaving. Don’t stay caught in hell.

      1. Lauren*

        Yup, I’ve decided that I will bring it up – I risk being labeled a troublemaker to those that say I don’t need to be there, but I don’t fear retaliation from my SVP like that – which is why I want to stay. Having an awesome boss like this is so hard to come by.

        You are right, I need to get over how the other bosses view me since I don’t report to them, which is how I stayed this whole time. I wonder about the longevity of it all though, since they are leadership and shape my future here – at some point I will prob give up again, but I need to try for my own sanity and ask why I am excluded.

  120. Elle*

    I have a question about expensing items. I recently bought a new personal laptop that I use primarily and bought with the intention of using as a personal laptop. However I have started using it occasionally for work. The laptop allows me to work efficiently from home and I have also been asked a few times to bring my laptop into the office or to conferences/business trips. Would it be reasonable to ask about expensing a portion of the cost? If so how do I figure out a reasonable portion to ask for?

    1. Ash (the other one)*

      I wouldn’t try to expense this… it is your personal laptop. If anything I’d ask if the company can give you a work laptop for teleworking/business trips, but I don’t think you can put the computer on your company’s dime.

    2. Going anon again*

      I don’t think it hurts to ask, but only the condition that you are prepared to return the laptop when you leave your job. If you don’t have an alternative personal computer, I’m guessing this isn’t the case.

    3. Bonky*

      Not a great idea. If your company’s not already issuing company laptops, this’ll look like a bit of an odd/naive ask. And even if you get what you want, it’ll mean the company has ownership of it (so if you leave, it’s not yours any more), gets to have permission to monitor everything you use it for, and that basically, it’s no longer a personal laptop.

    4. Troutwaxer*

      Slight tangent here, but is your home laptop appropriately secure for whatever work you do? You might want to check in with your IT dept and see if they’re OK with you using the laptop for work.

    5. ..Kat..*

      Depending on what type of work you do and what type of company you work for (government, legal stuff, health care, ..), using your personal computer (or smart phone or whatever device like this) for work, can mean you can get your computer taken away from you (for months, years, or even forever) for legal, or government, or some other reason. I don’t know how to explain this properly, but it is a thing. I bet Katie the Fed can explain it better.

      Also, as someone above mentioned, you might not have enough security/encryption/whatever on your laptop. If your laptop is stolen, what information about your projects/company is the criminal getting as a bonus?

      Plus, what are you going to do when your boss says Elle has everything on her laptop; Elle give Fergus your laptop and your login so Fergus can work on it.

      Finally, if your laptop dies/looses data/ etcetera, it is your fault/problem. If it is a work owned laptop, you should have help from your IT department.

      I recommend backing out of using your computer for work at all.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      My go-to is pretending to explain it to an imaginary IRS auditor. If I can’t explain it in a manner that is in agreement with the IRS rules, then I don’t do it. And it could be that I just don’t understand how to explain it, that would cause me not to take the deduction.

      I am a very conservative person. I do my taxes in a manner such that if I was audited I would actually show eligibility to write off MORE (not a lot but definitely a higher amount) than I had actually written off.

      The last thing I need in my life is an IRS hassle.

  121. Psych RA*

    UGH. I’m a psychology RA and currently working on (the end!) of a massive comparative effectivness trial where I’m working extensively with a lab in another state, and they are terrible at communicating their expectations. They have a habit of emailing to ask for lengthy reports or let me know that data collection needs to be done…. at the end of the week! I ask for deadlines well in advance… but never get them. They also seem to assume that this is the only project I work on, and therefore can do interviews at a moment’s notice (not true!). Their funding for me on this project runs out at the end of March, and I’m not even sure if they realize that…

    1. Mephyle*

      What are the consequences if you can’t get them what they ask for in time because they asked you too late?
      If you can, I’d suggest that every time you get a request from them, you schedule it, and then reply, letting them know the date when you will provide it.
      And is there any reason not to warn them about their funding for you being about to run out? (I mean, I’ve never worked in a situation like yours, so I don’t know what the reasons might be.)

  122. Receptionist Barbie*

    I’m struggling today. I have been out of school for two years and the endless entry-level office life is getting to me. I have two advanced degrees in Teapot Design and moved to a new city last year for personal reasons. I came at a difficult time with no connections and had trouble finding work. I accepted a receptionist job at a law firm, knowing during the interview I was not going to like it. It’s not a good fit and there is no potential for advancement (no design dept here). The feedback I’ve received in reviews is that I don’t smile enough or greet my fellow admins with enough cheer (ugh). I’m a part time server on top of this and very good at being peppy and conversational in exchange for money, but something about this place is sucking that talent from within me and I cannot seem to be that person here.

    I have nothing to do during the day and the nature of the firm means the business is very confidential. I receive no projects, although I did have the pleasure of stuffing some lawyers’ holiday cards and today I got to fill up a birthday balloon. I bring in my own work and beef up my portfolio, resume, website during all my downtime. I even enrolled in an online class so I do homework as well. I try and remind myself I’m lucky to have any job with benefits and to have a job with enough time to work on my own projects, but it’s demoralizing and demeaning and I can’t help but feel like a failure for not being able to land work in my field. I’m struggling to get through every day, especially while forcing a smile on my face. I’m a hard worker who needs to be busy or I get in my own head and get very depressed. I’ve only been here about four months now, and I know that it is not long enough for my resume. I just don’t know what to do. I’m not asking for much. I just want something to do during the day. And maybe to be able to pee when I want.

    1. DevAssist*

      Barbie, I totally understand how you feel. I’m just over a year into my first post-college office assistant job, and it is so draining. I don’t totally know what I want to do, I just know it’s not this. More and more I’ve been looking into freelancing/starting my own private practice in a different career field (but further education would be required).

      I don’t really have advice, but I wanted to say you’re not alone. I hope things get better!

    2. ..Kat..*

      Greet everyone with a big smile on your face while imagining them wearing a pair of leapard-print thong underwear on their head.

  123. Having Doubts*

    Backstory: During a period of unemployment, there was a position I got very close to getting a job with a startup that is exactly aligned with what I’d love to do through a temp agency. I just barely missed the position, but kept things open with them.

    Two months later, I got the job I’m in currently – nonprofit, very much tailored to my skill set. I’ve been here 8 months, got a significant raise due to the overtime law, and while I know this is not going to be a forever job, this feels like a good place to get my feet under me. I’m very much in the thick of it with the new job, especially with getting a conference off the ground later this summer.

    Smash cut to this Tuesday. I get an email from old startup saying they have the position I interviewed for is open again, and they were super impressed by me last time. I take a call from the CEO, and apparently the reason I got passed over the last time was because the person they chose had graphic design skills, but turned out to not be a good fit admin wise. They are desperate to fill the position, and they want me because I rocked the interview. I agree to meet with them the next day, and make it clear what I am making at the current job, and what my benefits are, and that is a minimum for what they will need to beat.

    I meet with the other person I’d be working with Weds, who apparently does not remember me that well, and we go over a lot of the stuff we went over already. It also turns out that in the time since we last met, they’ve moved from the office they were sharing with another company to a coworking space, and when I go to see the two small offices they share, interviewer mentions that she should probably be hiding her purse, because people like to steal stuff around there, which is mildly concerning.

    They come back with an offer that night – and it’s less PTO than I make currently, only 1k more salary, mentioning that it’s at the height of what they can do, but with the option to purchase stock. They also mention there being another candidate, and that I need to respond by EOB tomorrow. This is not enough to get me to jump from a job that I’ve only been at for 8 months, and one where I have a lot going on to be able to drop everything in two weeks’ time. The next morning, I send a gentle decline.

    Two minutes after I send that email I get a call from the CEO, followed by a text asking if I have time to talk. I respond that I’m busy with work, can’t respond, but am willing to send him referrals. He asks for feedback on why I turned it down, and I respond honestly – that 1k more is not enough to jump from a job right now, even with stock options, that my pto is higher, and the health insurance I’d be getting is the same (which ain’t fantastic). He ups the offer to 3k more and equivalent PTO, but I still don’t feel comfortable jumping and refer him to someone, and make it clear that I need to leave the conversation. I also get an email response later that night from the other person involved saying that she was disappointed as she thought I was a great fit and that we would’ve worked well together, but thanking me for referring the other person.

    This is a job I would’ve loved to have, but the move to a smaller coworking space, the speed with which they wanted me, and the way that they worded the offer and the ensuing discussions via text with the CEO, made my gut say no. But now I’m having doubts.

    Am I right for passing up on this while staying to get my feet at my new job?

    1. New Window*

      I think if I had been in that scenario, and assuming your current job isn’t eating away at your mental health, I would have done the same as you. Sure, $3k is nice, but taxes will take out a big chunk of that. They didn’t even really try to beat your current salary and benefits until they were quite pushed.

      The rush for a decision, workplace stealing, and texting with the CEO are red flags to me. Even if you aren’t in your forever-job, it sounds like the kind of place where you can get some savings or retirement accounts started and find some good projects for a future resume.

    2. Lady By The Lake*

      Any time I took a job like this, even when I wasn’t currently employed, it was a HUGE mistake. Any company that isn’t thinking carefully about new hires and giving them time to really think about such a big change is likely to have deficiencies that will become apparent over time. I think you did the right thing.

      1. Dizzy Steinway*

        Yeah, pressurising you for such a quick answer is a major red flag. So there’s another candidate? Isn’t there always?

    4. ..Kat..*

      Start ups are notorious for extremely long work hours. Also, why did the person they previously hired (who was only slightly more wonderful than you) not work out? And the fact that they want to give you a compensation package that is not as good as at a nonprofit? You have job you like using the skills you want to use. I think you made a good call.

  124. Myrin*

    You guys! I have an interview for a job that, from its description at least, sounds absolutely wonderful and pretty much 100% what I want to do (which is a bit of a miracle since my field of specialty is kind of niche). My communication with the main interviewer up until this point was very warm and friendly and going from just what was in the ad, I’m actually 100% qualified for this. I’m excited!

    I’ll be travelling all Wednesday (get up at five, come home after midnight, providing the trains run smoothly) and through half the country but I’m actually looking forward to the interview itself. This would not only be a huge chance career-wise but also a great, great thing for my whole family financially. Wish me luck!

  125. OuttaHere*

    Has anyone here quit a job that’s a bad fit without anything lined up?

    I’ve been at the current place for several years and the job has morphed into a fit like a really bad shoe. I’m trying to hang on until I find something but it’s getting harder and harder. Any stories of how ig worked out or failed for people?

    1. Bea W*

      One of my co-workers did this just as I was leaving the same job with something lined up. It was that bad. Luckily, he had a job a month later, but he was also okay contracting, and there was no shortage of contracting jobs out there. Perm opening were near impossible to find at that time. In fact, I was considering contracts for the right job, because my current (now former) workplace was intolerable and making me ill. I even did the math to figure out how long I could go unemployed and living off savings.

      You have to know your job market. If what you do is in high demand right now, you might be safe. If it looks like it will be a long search, I’d recommend hanging on as long as you can.

    2. Anon right now*

      Yes. I did this at the end of 2016. I was far beyond BEC with my employer and I knew if I stayed I’d end up despising them and myself. I did a few things: 1. Made sure I had money in the bank to cover normal expenses. (I am married and my spouse makes twice what I was making which more than covers our expenses so that’s a lucky thing for me; I know not everyone has that) 2. I immediately applied for several positions, recognizing I was not going to get a job immediately. I am about 11 weeks out and am getting anxious, though. I wish I knew a good way to keep the anxiety at bay. 3. I’ve tried to maintain a cordial relationship with old work so that they’ll give me good references. 4. I do the kind of work that I can do on a solo basis, so while I’m looking I do have a little bit of income. If your work isn’t the kind of work where you can do that, it might not be a bad idea to set up some sort of freelance or other WFH kind of gig so you’ve at least got something coming in, and also so you’re not bored to tears while you wait. 5. I wish I had gotten word out a little sooner that I wanted to leave so I could put out feelers for where there might be job opportunities. My professional community is very small, though, so that would not have worked terribly well, at least from the standpoint of keeping things quiet.

      I knew, though, if I stayed where I was it was going to be bad news for everyone so I got out while the getting out was good and before I started throwing office supplies at people because heaven knows I wanted to do that.

    3. Bonky*

      I have a friend who has a history of doing this; he has since we were at college together (we’re now in our early forties). It hasn’t worked out well for him; he’s got huge gaps in his resume and the flakiness means he finds it hard to find full-time work, so he now does a lot of contracting. He expresses the feeling that he’s not where he wants to be in his life; I wouldn’t say it to him directly, but I think his habit of leaving jobs that aren’t absolutely perfect with no backup and nothing to go on to is largely responsible for that.

    4. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      I swear I write about this in almost every open thread. I quit my last job with nothing lined up and it worked out very well for me. I had a great reference from the job I quit, a mentor, a supportive family (emotionally, not financially), and enough savings to get me through more than 6 months of being unemployed and all of these things ended up making a tough situation much easier to handle. You don’t have to have all of those things and none of them guarantee a quick turnaround in the job search but they really help depending on how long you end up being unemployed.

      I ended up taking a few months completely off (old job was very toxic) and then completely changing industries which I was concerned would mean a step back. And while I did take a step back in terms of title, I took huge enormous leaps forward in terms of doing what I was interested in, working for a great company, getting much better benefits and perks, and getting a big raise.

      I would tell you to hang on as long as you can so you can get some extra savings but not so long that you completely demolish your emotional and mental well-being. You’ll know when you get to that point.

    5. OuttaHere*

      Thanks to all of you for responding. I’ve been job searching for the last 3 months, ramping it up over the last month or so. Before that I was in school so I was trying to stick it out and finish my degree.

      Anon, very good point about the backup gig–I’d let those plans fall to the side with my stress and I am going to get back to them. I think I’ll feel a lot better about quitting if I have some sort of backup/safety net besides savings.

      I’ve really never quit a job without anything lined up before and I think mostly it’s nerves. All of the changes lately have me feeling like Mr. Hyde when I’m normally Dr. Jekyll, and I’m at BEC for everything I do at the job now.

      I think I’ll give it another month and then I’m done. I don’t think I can last much longer than that. Thanks for all of your support.

  126. Effie*

    I’m a part-time dance teacher, and I am currently content in my entry-level role at my full-time day job (say Teapot Maker). In my office, everyone makes teapots, no matter how high up in the company you are, and it’s a very repetitive process. A lot of people find it boring but I actually find it soothing and it means that I can save my energy for dance.

    One of my coworkers (a Teapot Coordinator) will be going on maternity leave this year (around August) and our big boss had a quick chat with me about promoting me to her position when she does, and when she returns moving me to a different division so I can keep being a Teapot Coordinator. I’ve covered for Teapot Coordinators before when they’ve gone on vacation so we know I can do it. The thing is, I hate it. I don’t mind making teapots all day but when I have to deal with clients over the phone/email while or in between making teapots, it makes me inordinately angry. I have excellent customer service skills but prior to this job I’d done it for 7 years and don’t want to do it full-time anymore. Furthermore this coworker has the most high-maintenance clients out of everyone in our department and they’ve gotten very shirty with me when I’ve covered for her and wouldn’t go around the regulations the way that she normally would.

    I want to go back to my big boss and let him know that while I’m flattered, I do NOT want to move up in the company (as far as I know, no matter the career path I’d have to deal with clients more than I am now along the way). But then maybe he’ll just let me go. The biggest appeal when I took this job was that I wouldn’t need to deal with clients anymore. Yet since I’ve started I’ve been having to do it more and more (for example now I do it on Fridays because I’m one of two people in my division who has a 5-day work week instead of a 4-day one). I was really hoping I’d be able to stay at this company for at least a year (which coincidentally would be this August) so I would look less job-hoppy and now I just don’t know.

    Does anyone have any insight for me?

    1. CmdrShepard4ever*

      I think unless your big boss is crazy or unreasonable if you explain that you do not want to be promoted that you will be fired. It seems that they recognize you are a good worker and any normal boss would not want to loss you and spend more time and money to train someone for the teapot maker position in addition to the teapot coordinator position. When you talk to him maybe just try to frame it more as a I really enjoy teapot making for xyz reasons more than I enjoy teapot coordinating, rather than saying I hate dealing with clients.

      1. Effie*

        Thanks for your perspective! You’re right, he’s not crazy or unreasonable. I guess I’m 1. afraid to disappoint him and my team and 2. I don’t know how to reset my work boundaries since now my team has gotten used to me covering for people above my level even though it really and truly “isn’t my job”. So it feels like even if they get a new Teapot Coordinator there’s always going to be this expectation that I’ll be able to jump in and cover for Teapot Coordinators as needed. I don’t mind helping once in a while but it’s really become a regular weekly thing.

        1. CmdrShepard4ever*

          The part about resetting work boundaries is harder it seems. You could talk to your boss in the same meeting about how you would like to scale back back helping out with clients maybe say you are still open to helping in a real emergency. But that unless there is someone else that can on Fridays instead that might be harder to pull off. You are right it is not your job you were hired for, but unless you have a contract I am assuming you are an at will employee and this is one of those things that the boss gets to decide what is and isn’t your job and they can add/subtract things whenever they see fit. If they say no you need to keep covering Fridays then you would have to decide if it is worth staying in the job with the new parameters or if you would want to find something else. You could try and ask for a raise if you decide to stay and will have to keep covering on Fridays to reflect the fact that you do some work above your current position. But with the secondary issue of covering for people on Fridays I would be more flexible, because you then might come across as not a team player or inflexible. You could try to frame the second issue, as “I would really like to move away from covering on Fridays is that something that would be possible or that could be looked into training someone else?”

          But again not wanting a promotion should not be an issue with reasonable person. Not wanting to cover at all is a little riskier again depends on how understanding your boss and team are.

  127. Stella'sMom*

    Hi all, I am new here and this post is the first time I have replied to comments before, altho I have been reading AAM for several years now (and using the archives a lot!). I am SO thankful for this community and the advice I have read. Resumes, cover letters, dealing with bullies, being gracious at work… all of it. Thank you.

    I just want to share a work story, not a rant, but a story that has motivated me to change.
    For the past 8.5 years I have lived outside my home country, and worked in the non-profit arena, on defined contracts – in 3 orgs (3 years each, 2.5 years into 3rd gig). I was primarily doing communications. I am about to be laid off next Friday, and it is a BLESSING. Here’s why…

    In 2015, I was hired as employee #15, and brought in at salary X; three months into the role, we had layoffs since the directors spent all the money and “we ran out of money.” Layoffs happened to all but 5 of us. Ended up taking 2 months off without pay; got a renewed contract (for 70% of salary X) after that. Needed the job, so stayed. The directors all left, then the founder, and we got a new boss who did not know a thing about development. She hired a good friend to do “HR” but who had zero HR training and repeatedly gossiped with the boss about us workers and our work. After that…things got really bad in the office. So now, more layoffs…and I cannot say that I am sad about it all because….

    I have applied for grad school and am “rebooting” my life completely. I plan to move to another country, study for a year and then find either a place in my home country, or another gig in the university’s country. The last year has been very difficult for me to manage my stress (boyfriend dumped me recently after several years together; older family members being sick; work stress of this current gig; housing issues; health issues of my own), but I have decided since I am mid-career that I want to NOT do this kind of work for the next 20 years, and I want to do something I *love* and I want to work in science. :)

    So I did a lot of reading and reflecting and have been seeing a counselor, and am ready to change things up. Yes, it’s scary. But it’s less scary than living here, working in dysfunctional non-profits, with people who don’t get it, and not being able to hide my frustrations at the way things work in this world.

    1. New Window*

      Ugh, that’s a lot to deal with. I’m glad that it’s something that has been a push to change (in a good way). I think that for many people, if things are going basically okay enough, there’s just enough of a comfort level that makes uprooting change (like a big move for grad school) unlikely. When those handful of buffers get pulled away too, then you might as well go for it.

      Congratulations on making it through a difficult time and for the steps you’re taking to move into a new phase of your life. I’m trying to do it to, and you’re right, it’s scary, but not nearly as scary as not changing. *virtual high five*

    2. Bigglesworth*

      Good luck on the rebooting! It sounds like you have been through a lot, but that you have a plan in place to move forward. And I’ve heard that there’s always a need for more people in the sciences!

      Out of curiosity, how have you been able to find work in a country that’s not your home country? I’m looking at moving outside of the USA after grad school, but am terrified at the prospect of job-hunting in a different country. Moving overseas won’t be a new experience (I studied in Austria for a time), but finding work will be.

      1. Stella'sMom*

        I networked my way into this work, and volunteered a lot. Got introduced to the first non profit, thru friends, and helped them out a lot, then got hired to come to headquarters. Took a while, four years, but was worth it.

        Thanks for your reply!

  128. i2c2*

    My LGBTQ+ employee resource group is meeting with the director of our organization next month and I’m part of a group planning our “ask.”

    The work culture feels like an unfixably bad fit for me (it’s “family-oriented” in a way that would never recognize my network of queer/polyamorous friends and partners as family; it’s science/tech/medicine-oriented and I’m a humanities-loving writer), so I’m having trouble figuring out what kind of support to ask for. Very few people are out as LGB and I’m not aware of anyone out as trans; we have nondiscrimination policies in place, a staff member devoted to diversity initiatives, and, as mentioned, an LGBTQ+ resource group.

    Any suggestions about how we can ask a director to support us, realistically?

    1. NW Mossy*

      One thing I’ve seen our ERG do recently is (successfully!) advocate for inclusive measures for trans employees – we now have designated all-gender restroom facilities (by converting existing single-occupancy restrooms through signage) and our health plans specifically include services for treatments related to gender identity. I’m friends with one of the co-chairs of the group and she said that even though these only directly impact a handful of employees, these actions help to reinforce a broader message of tolerance and inclusion. Also, they’re helpful as recruiting tools for LGBTQ+ employees and their allies.

    2. Office Plant*

      I have never been in that exact situation (being the person making that request). But, as I’m sure you know, in the business world, everything boils down to demonstrating the business value of something. And there is much to be gained by having a diverse workforce. I would come prepared with some data on that, and maybe some success stories from other businesses (positive press about companies supporting diversity). Then ask for specific things. If you haven’t decided what the company could do specifically, maybe ask for a follow up meeting or for a discussion group to be set up. But I think you’d get more favorable results if you came prepared with something specific. That way it would be harder for them to put a less than ideal solution in place to try and appease you (like having a “celebrate diversity day” while keeping discriminatory policies in place).

      By the way, I think it’s great that you’re doing this. You probably stand to help a lot of people. :-)

    3. Troutwaxer*

      I read this and the earlier replies a couple days ago and decided to think about it before answering. My first thought, given how you describe the culture, is that “advocating for inclusive measures for trans employees” is probably a bridge too far right now. If there’s an LGBTQ+ resource group, your office has clearly moved beyond “fire/harass people for being Gay,” but they still haven’t gotten to the point of being really LGBTQ+ friendly, so I think your “ask” should probably be to have LGBTQ+ people and their concerns clearly laid out within the company’s policies and procedures and make sure that the company expands its idea of “family” to include the usual “network of queer/polyamorous friends and partners” within their definition of “family.” This means becoming more tribally than family oriented, but that’s not usually a big jump.

      The importance of this, as you doubtless know, is that many LGBTQ+ people don’t have the kinds of generally supportive, blood-relative-derived families as the rest of us,* and so being “family friendly” in the sense of being “nuclear family-friendly” is really a kind of subtle prejudice. So build your ask around expanding the definition of “family” to something better and destroying that subtle prejudice, and maybe add one request more that management can refuse.

      Then in a couple years you can ask for something more.

      * This issue also applies to people from families which are dysfunctional due to alcoholism, drugs, etc.

      1. i2c2*

        Thanks – I appreciate your thoughtful response. I disagree on trans issues – I don’t think you can have an LGBTQ+ resource group that *doesn’t* advocate for basic trans rights, and we are talking about making sure there are gender-neutral bathrooms and the ability to have meaningful name changes within our IT systems.

        As far as culture though, I’d love to see that change but can’t really imagine how–do you have any thoughts on what, concretely, we could ask for?

  129. Sibley*

    UGH. I hate politics! got a client who’s trying to do something, which is allowed with prior approval but that approval isn’t easy to get. And instead of emailing the manager, they email me. I don’t have authority to do this. So I hit reply, cc the manager, and punt to the manager.

    Then I get a call from the manager, I shouldn’t have replied. She wasn’t on the email! I know the rules, I was punting!

    It’s Friday. Can I go home yet?

  130. New Employee*

    I’m a little far down, but appreciate any help that anyone can offer. I’ve been at a new job for a little less than 3 months. I have a disability, which I disclosed before I was hired, but it’s an invisible one and I can pass as non disabled for limited amounts of time. I’m hitting a lot of resistance with getting my team lead (and to my supervisor, to a smaller extent) understanding what my challenges are and how I work around them. They seem to have a bit of “But you don’t look disabled” syndrome, and are not open to my ideas and explanations. I don’t really know what to do, since my request of “respect my brain and way of doing things” is being met with some resistance.

    She blames any mistake I make on the fact that I wear headphones, even though she has said I don’t make a lot of mistakes, at least not out of the ordinary. I have also requested wearing headphones as a reasonable accommodation and it was agreed to by my supervisor. Any suggestions I have about giving me criticism and corrections are immediately shut down as impossible. And my supervisor has excused my lead by saying that she (the lead) is old and stuck in her ways. I’m starting to run out of ideas. Anyone have any suggestions?

    1. fposte*

      Ugh. I think it’s time for another talk with the supervisor. First, to ask explicitly for the feedback method you’re seeking, and second, to ask how she wants to handle the fact that you’re getting grief from your team lead about your approved accommodation. Consider if it’s time to loop in HR in the discussion if the supervisor is unresponsive.

      It’s possible that the accommodation you want on feedback isn’t one that they can give, but ragging you for an approved accommodation is a really bad move that a decent employer/HR would have concerns about.

    2. Sunshine Brite*

      Is there HR? They should be able to work at educating your supervisor about reasonable accommodations and what to expect (and your supervisor to the team lead). They shouldn’t be creating an atmosphere where having your disability is uncomfortable for you as part of the team and singled out for your accommodations.

  131. open office hell*

    I work in an open office, where only management have their own offices. On her last break, one of the coworkers who sits near me was on the phone with someone. She said she has been a seeing doctor because of symptoms she has been having and the doctor diagnosed her with fibromyalgia. She told whoever she was on the phone with that she walked right out of the exam room and the appointment because she didn’t realize the doctor was a ‘quack’ who believes in ‘made up diseases’. and that she reported the doctor to the clinic management and is now seeing a doctor in a different clinic and practice group. I was floored. She has always come across as intelligent and kind and has been pleasant to work around. I was shocked at what she said. I never imagined she could be like this. I have been looking for another job and this is just one more reason. I can’t wait until 5:00. Counting down the hours…

  132. T3k*

    So, does anyone have any advice on using a temp agency to find work? So far I’ve submitted my application to a few, but beyond that, never heard anything. Do I need to call them up and personally talk with someone to have better luck for placement, just keep applying to jobs they post, or something else?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I work for a staffing agency. Typically, when someone submits an application, we call and have them come in to register with us. If you’re not getting any response to your application, that might be a red flag that they aren’t very professional or well organized. This is probably the one situation where it is a good idea to pick up the phone though. Ask if they received your application or if you can schedule a time to come in and meet with someone.

  133. Bea W*

    My job is painful right now. Need some sage advice. I lead teams, but I have no authority. So answers should be tailored to practical advice for people who are in the position known as “having all of the responsibility but none of the authority”.

    What do you do with co-workers/team leads who won’t take ownership? I really need the lead of another team I depend on to own their stuff. By that I mean two things 1) Do their job and 2) Take responsibility for and fixing their own mistakes. I’m especially worried about the latter because things happened that had major impact on my team’s work, and I ultimately had to just take over and see they got fixed by coming up with a plan and then distributing the work to my team. I discussed these issues with our mutual manager. I was given assurance later that the other person gets it. Not an hour later another the buck was being passed to me. I passed it back.

    We’re all very experienced and have been working together on the same projects for years. I’m not talking about people who are new and learning. The other lead is even a pay grade above me. I am very concerned what this means for me, my team, and our projects long term. We are embarking on a major set of projects, and I feel like if we’re having problems handling the smaller things, it’s all down hill from here.

    Secondly, how do I get others, including my own manager to understand that the work my team does isn’t as easy as we make it look. I feel like I am constantly having to stop and justify normal things with hard data showing how much time and effort things really take, and it goes in one ear, out the other. The discussions and decisions made over the last month have diminished us in numbers (my resources being taken to support a team with resources already dedicated to one function) and by word. I feel like I am in an almost daily battle pushing back things that the other team was supposed to relieve us of when it split off. People who do not do our job functions and haven’t done them in year, push back claiming it’s not that much time to do what we do, and it’s not that much time they are asking us to help them out. No one on my team has authority. I had to listen to a co-worker beg for a 2 week adjustment during a timeline planning meeting. BEG! It was painful. When people who are usually quiet and never complain about having to suck it up, are begging for reasonable timelines on their deliverables, I know we’re in trouble!

    It’s double frustrating because my people and I prior to this for a number of years were doing doing both our current jobs and their jobs with the same or less warm bodies. Then we decided to reorganize, and were given additional resources to create a team dedicated to one function, with people who have no other responsibilities other than supporting that one function. Now suddenly, we can’t get things done with a larger group of dedicated people than we could get done with a smaller group of folks who were multitasking up the wazoo. I feel like I am missing something here, but experience and my gut are telling me I’m not overreacting by silently freaking out and pushing back on it.

    That was too long. So frustrated. I feel like what my group doesn’t matter and isn’t valued, and I worry that this is only the tip of the iceberg. When we get into the much bigger projects coming down the line, I can’t see how we can possibly succeed on this path, which feels like walking through a minefield of failure to plan ahead.

    1. ..Kat..*

      Sorry you aren’t getting any replies. I remember some previous columns where Alison had great advice about this type of situation.

      1. Bea W*

        She probably does. I will look. My brain is going a mile a minute at times trying to figure out some good possible courses of action. I’m a fixer, and It’s hard to it shut down.

        I’ve also been browsing job listings to get a feel for what my options are, because Boss Freaking Out is a recurring theme tightly connected to this one, and the stress-caused-by-BS level is getting untenable.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          If you’re not doing it already, document, document, document! Be able to dump a load of well-formatted data on the boss or on the other team lead showing what was not done, when it was not done, who it wasn’t done by, and then document why your team can’t make up the work the other team should have done. If you need to you can dump a nuke on the other team lead by saying, “we organized your team specifically to handle this issue for my team. If you can’t handle it, maybe we should get rid of your team and my team should go back to handing this correctly and in a timely manner, as we did before your lazy ass came on the scene.” (Phrased more diplomatically, of course.) If your boss and the other team lead don’t get the problem, maybe its time to move on.

          If you’re dealing with software, read “The Mythical Man-Month” if you haven’t done so already.

  134. CmdrShepard4ever*

    I have a friend who is having trouble with an employee they supervise. Friend A works at a small museum as a guest services/operations with a 3 person staff (all are salaried). One of the staff members (employee C) was hired about 8 months ago primarily as a front desk/admissions person in charge of opening and closing the museum. Being a small organization employee C also does other work such as working events. Employee C usually works about 37/39 hours a week, sometimes more if there is an after hours event. Before one event Employee C asked if they could make up the 5 hours of “overtime” next week i.e. take 5 hours off. Friend A told them no, Friend A has been feeling some tension from Employee C about number of hours worked recently, so they had a conversation that working more than 40 hours will some times be necessary. Employee C stated they felt they worked a lot, and that Friend A and Employee B (curator) were “never” at the museum. The nature of Friend A’s and Employee B’s position make them much more flexible then Employee C’ s front desk position. So if Friend A or Employee B need a day off they can switch it with their normal days off, or work from home. Friend A also respond to emails, update social media throughout the week on “days off” and “off hours.” Since it is a small staff if Friend A covers employee C’s lunch, sick days, days off while Friend A is in a position that doesn’t need coverage in case of sickness or days off.

    I think either just hold the line and tell them this is the way it is, or try and be a little understanding and ocassionaly give an extra day off or a half day?

    So the question is how would you guys handle this?

    1. Sibley*

      Employee C is in a position that requires butt-in-seat, with coverage if you’re not at the desk? If C is objecting to that, then C may not be a good fit for the job. Have the “here are the hours requirements. These haven’t changed, aren’t going to change. does this work for you?” conversation, and maybe Friend A will be finding a replacement for C.

  135. DaniCalifornia*

    Is there ever a time to correct people on your name? I get all kinds of emails to Danielle or asked for by that name on the phone. I go by Dani, my parents have always called me that but it’s short for Danielle. I don’t dislike Danielle but when you’ve spent 32 years going as Dani hearing or seeing Danielle is a bit weird. My email address, signature, and name all say Dani. I answer the phone as Dani. Usually it only happens once and then the client addresses me as Dani going foward, but some see reluctant to realize my name is Dani.

    My coworker gets the same thing, her name is Emmalee and people call her Emma all the time. So when is it appropriate to tell someone you’re emailing ‘Actually it’s x not y’ and what’s a polite way to say it?

    1. NarrowDoorways*

      Say it as soon as someone does it, ideally the first time. Sign your emails that way, etc, though I assume you’re already doing that.

      “Hi Danielle, what’s on the docket for today?”

      “Hi Bob! I prefer Dani, actually. Here’s what we’re looking into on our end.”

      1. AnonEMoose*

        This. Just correct them the first time, in a matter of fact way, and most people won’t take offense. My actual first name has umpteen nicknames attached to it, and I hate all of them (well, at least when applied to me – if that’s what someone else wants to be called, I’ll cheerfully call them that). So I’ve been dealing with this for many years now, only in reverse.

        Some people do get weird about it, and protest “Oh, but FullName is so FORMAL, I’ll just call you NICKNAME.” or “I’m just trying to be FRIENDLY.” In which case, I respond with something like “I go by FullName.” But since you’re actually going to the nickname version, you may have fewer issues with that.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      Does your email signature (or the alias in the To: field) say Dani? If not that could be an easy fix to help signal your preferences. I also once had a colleague who asked me to let someone else know discreetly that she wasn’t calling Colleague by the right name, so if there’s a weird power dynamic, that might be worth doing.

      I think it’s totally fine to just tell people you go by Dani, though!

    3. Dizzy Steinway*

      I’m known by a nickname – think something like Katie instead of Katherine. I just say: “Oh, please call me Katie, everyone does.”

  136. Tedious Cat*

    I’m freaking out. I’m finishing my first week at my new job (props to Alison’says amazing interview guide!), and it’s been great and exciting up until this morning, which is my first time getting to do my actual work by myself. Stuff that seemed easy when I was reading about it or working through it with my boss now feels overwhelming and I feel like I’m missing details left and right. Granted, I’m mostly catching them and asking questions for next time. Intellectually I know this is all totally normal, but I have issues with anxiety and now I’m freaking TF out — not to mention I left the building for lunch and immediately got lost. I really wanted to nail this, anyone got any advice on stopping the out of control panic train?

    1. AnonEMoose*

      Are there job aids or notes you can follow? Can you take a walk – even just to the restroom or the water cooler? Or maybe try acknowledging the feelings “Yep, I’m feeling anxious/panicky because…but right now I’m going to focus on X.” Trying to suppress the feelings just make them more powerful, but if you can sort of redirect yourself, it might help a bit.

      1. Tedious Cat*

        Thank you for responding! Those are all wonderful suggestions. I will keep them in mind going forward, because it’s probably just a matter of time till it happens again. Getting some food provided a bit of a reset and then when I got back to work, I got some praise from my boss for being thorough. I know it’s not great to rely on outside affirmation but for the first week I’ll take it :)

  137. NarrowDoorways*

    Old old thing I’m curious what everyone thinks about.

    I work in the city and, a few years ago, applied to a job. Phone interview went well, we discussed the company was accessible by transit as I didn’t have a car. Everything was fine and an in-person interview was scheduled.

    In order to get anywhere by transit, you have to leave pretty early. It would have taken me about 45 minutes with no delays, so I left an hour and 20 minutes early in case of transit delays and so that I would still have time to collect myself (i.e. not get lost or show up out of breath). The called an hour before the time to say the interviewer went home early because it was a slow day for them. We spoke briefly about rescheduling.

    For the next interview, they cancelled the morning of saying the position was filled, but because I’d been so nice about it, they’d keep me in mind for future positions. Fast forward a few weeks and they do call! They want me to come in to interview. And I said, with a long pause because I was caught off guard, that while I appreciated them thinking of me, I was no longer interested.

    At the time I only got 4 sick days A YEAR. My 1-week vacation had to be used all at once. After missing 2 days of work, I wasn’t willing to miss another day of work for an interview that may not pan out based on their track record. Good choice or no? Are these valid red flags?

    1. Manders*

      Yeah, those are definitely red flags that they don’t respect your time and can’t plan far enough ahead for very basic office tasks (and also, what the hell happened to the person who got the job the first go-round?). Cancelling an interview because you’re sick is one thing, but blowing it off at the last minute because you felt like going home early or you forgot someone else had been hired is just not a great look. I think you were right to back out.

    2. anon for this one*

      Um, yeah. If they’re going to be that thoughtless with someone they’re courting, what are they going to treat you like after you’re committed?

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      The interviewer went home because it was a slow day, knowing full well that you had an interview scheduled. That was the first red glad. The rest of it is also nonsense.

      These people do not respect you or your time. You are doing the right thing by moving on.

  138. MuseumMusings*

    Does anyone have recommendations on how to supervise volunteers?

    We have some volunteer students coming in from the local college to teach computer programming as a class at our museum. I was kind of thrust into this position with no real information and I’m not sure how to get across to them that, no, they can’t let the kids out at the end of class without a parent picking them up and that having me come and check on them every fifteen minutes “just in case the class is rowdy” isn’t a good use of my time (I design and implement educational programming). I’ve said these things flat out to them multiple times, but if I don’t show up one of them will wander down to my office and they still let the kids run out when the class ends. (There’s another session planned for the fall, with different students, so I know what to emphasize during the training in the fall, but I’d appreciate anything on dealing with this spring session.)

    I know they’re just college students, but I feel that there’s some bit of accountability I should hold them up to. Am I mistaken?

    1. Allypopx*

      You’re not mistaken, but I’d perhaps commit yourself to some extra oversight. It’s harder to hold volunteers to higher standards than it is for interns or employees, and it seems like there are some safety concerns regarding the kids running out that you might hold some liability for if something happens.

      1. MuseumMusings*

        Yeah, I brought this up with my supervisor and she was worried about the liability as well. I’m having a hard time figuring out what to say to people who when told that “You can’t let the kids leave without a parent” said, “What do you want us to do? Walk them downstairs and wait in the lobby?” and then were standoffish after I said yes.

        I’m planning on having an email sent out to the parents reminding them to pick their kids up at the classroom as well as coming into the classroom before it ends and keeping the kids inside, but I technically have no authority to the students (my boss is the main contact for the program but she doesn’t work on the days that the class happens).

        1. Allypopx*

          Maybe make it a part of the original instructions so it feels less like an extra step they have to take. Frame waiting in the lobby with the kids who don’t have a parent there yet as the natural end of the process and maybe they’ll feel less put upon? Frankly that seems like such an obvious thing to me that I’m annoyed on your behalf that you’re getting pushback.

    2. Bonky*

      Does your museum have a safeguarding policy in place? (Here in the UK, schools running extra-curricular stuff, museums, libraries and other spaces like this usually do for work with kids.) If they do, you should just be able to print copies out and give the to the volunteers. If they don’t, it’s a sign that you might well need one – find out who the right person to bring this up with is!

  139. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I just wrote up a draft maternity policy for our teapot company (which is too small to qualify for FMLA) since a coworker and friend is in early pregnancy. And there is no. Policy. Here.

    Anybody in small business who wrote or had experiences with maternity leave? What happened? Did you cobble together short-term disability leave, paid/annual/unpaid leave and leave donations?

    (Friend asked me for ideas since she’s scared and worried about what the big teapot bosses would do). Though honestly, our bosses are decent and fair. (I hope this extends to maternity policies). Company’s so new there’s *never* been a pregnant employee :S

    1. Allypopx*

      We don’t have an official policy but last time someone got pregnant we let her use all her sick time and vacation time plus borrow against future time and also she might have taken some time unpaid? Basically yes, we cobbled what we could.

  140. Not Rebee*

    Anyone got a good script for this? I heard back from a company on Monday that I had made final interviews. Due to key staff being out of town this week, they wanted to set it up for next week – I sent back my availability using their calendaring tool thing on Monday night, confirmed I had submitted it on Tuesday morning, and… haven’t heard back from them. I want to follow up today because next week is, well, the next business day.. but I don’t want to sound too pushy.

    1. animaniactoo*

      I would go with something along the lines of trying to finalize your own schedule for next week and following up to see if they have any progress on their end on for scheduling the final interviews.

  141. Professional Cat Lady*

    I could use some help coaching an employee to be more independent:

    I have one direct report in my office, and she’s still very young (this is her part time job in high school, but she’s worked here unofficially for longer than I have due to family connections). Jane is smart, but has no individual initiative. I’ll give her a task and she’ll come back to me every minute or two as soon as she finds something that she isn’t sure what to do about. And then when she’s finished, she’ll ask me what she needs to do next instead of looking around and finding something, or finding the next part of a task.

    It’s starting to drive me a bit crazy, and I end up having to do half of it myself because Jane either genuinely doesn’t know what to do or doesn’t trust her own judgement, even on something like cleaning out and re-organizing the supply cabinet (a project that was desperately needed and no one else had time for.)

    We’re bringing her in for more hours soon as summer approaches and our busy season starts really getting busy. How can I encourage some independent thinking and initiative so that I don’t HAVE to micromanage her when I give her a project?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Have you sat her down and directly and explicitly explained how you want her to operate, and how it’s different from what she’s doing now?

      1. Professional Cat Lady*

        I haven’t, because I really have no idea how to approach that talk. She’s told me she’s extremely afraid of getting things wrong, and I’ve never supervised anyone before. My own supervisor isn’t on site very much at the moment, and while I’m sure she’d be helpful with the question, and happy to answer, we’re in the aftermath of a merge (Supervisor is from New Org, Jane and I from the old one) and Supervisor is horrifically busy.

        Giving her one task to oversee as HERS has helped a lot: she comes in checks on her project and keeps it current as soon as she comes in, which is great. As we get busier this summer, she’ll be critical in managing the flow of traffic for kitten adoptions, and I’d like to work on building her confidence before we get totally slammed. (we’ll have our first two week after next and I expect a stampede, to be honest.)

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Oh gosh, you have to do that. That’s step one before you can even think about getting frustrated! You could frame it this way: “Now that you’ve been doing this for a while, I want to work on getting you more independent in the job. That means X, Y, and Z.” Then talk her through some concrete examples to ground it in real stuff for her — take a few recent projects and say, “With a project like that in the future, I’d like you to handle it X way instead.”

          Also, though, she’s in high school and she might just not have the maturity or confidence to do this, which means there might just be a lot more coaching and hand-holding involved.

        2. fposte*

          I made this mistake with an employee who wasn’t working independently enough. I complained to a friend and she asked if I had told the employee I wanted her to work more independently. Um, fair point.

          Ask for what you want. Be specific about the frequency of check-ins, even, and what kind of things you found her to that she could have found herself. And when you tell her keep in mind that she didn’t know you wanted this because you didn’t tell her, so there’s no reason to be impatient with her.

    2. animaniactoo*

      It sounds like right now she has almost no feedback on whether her judgment WOULD be correct, so I think you need to start there. Because until she has a sense that it’s *okay* to use her own judgement – both from you AND from her, she’s not going to.

      When she brings you something she doesn’t know about, break that down into 2 categories:

      1) Something she should be able to look up and figure out on her own – in that case, ask her to research it and come back to you with an answer. On this, after a few tries, you can start asking her “did you try researching it?” and ask her where she’s looking, etc. so that you can help her develop resources to check if where she’s looking isn’t right.
      2) Something she knows what the options are, but isn’t sure which one to pick – ask her to tell you which option she thinks is better and why. At that point, if she’s picked the right option, tell her so and reinforce your happiness with her thought process. If it’s 50-50, go with her option as being as good as the other and you’d rather go with her gut (and be clear about that to her). If it’s wrong, explain that you understand what she was looking at, and here’s what she missed for future.

      Be clear with her that your goal is for her to have a better sense of stuff so that she can work on her own and not need to come to you as often.

      As far as ran out of stuff to do…. ask her to look for 2 to 3 things around the office that she thinks she could work on and bring those to you for approval to go and do. If she’s having problems thinking of stuff, ask her to go off and run through what she’s heard people around the office gripe about – even in a happy way – as being a problem. Figure out from that what might be something she can help with, and bring that to you for approval.

      Reinforce her good choices, and where she’s missing stuff, be clear about that in a lowkey “Hmmm, keep this in mind for future when you’re looking at this kind of thing.” way.

      See how that goes and if it’s going well at some point, you can ask her “It sounds like you know the answer to this. Why did you think you needed to check with me about it?” and give her explicit freedom to make those kinds of decisions on her own. And build on doing that with more stuff as it comes up.

      1. Professional Cat Lady*

        Thank you! I will definitely be trying out these suggestions in the next few weeks, especially since we’re increasing her hours soon. She’ll be mainly a customer-focused position in the front office most of the time, and a lot of what we’ve been doing to change over the office after a recent merger is going to taper off.

      2. Troutwaxer*

        That was great advice! The OP might also make it clear that she’s not looking for one particular answer, just a good, mature solution to the problem.

  142. DVZ*

    Would you leave a job you really liked, to take a step up (in terms of title) at a different company, for only a £10k pay rise?

    The fact that it’s only £10k more but has a “senior” title makes me concerned that they don’t have really adequate expectations for the job or that perhaps it’s an overblown title and my responsibility may be in fact less than it is now. I am slightly underpaid in my current role so this is probably more like a £5k jump if I were being paid appropriately now. And £5k to go from Teapot Manager to Senior Teapot Manager seems really odd to me.

    My last promotion, from Teapot Executive to Teapot Manager, gave me a £12k rise (again, should have been more like £17k) so I don’t think I’m wildly out of line expecting significant raises in my industry.

    I love my job now and am due a promotion/pay rise anyway but I was really excited about this new role as it’s a better/more well known company. Is this a warning sign that the role isn’t really well thought out?

    1. DVZ*

      I mean “adequate” in terms of like, it might be not as much autonomy as it really should be for a Senior title, in my industry

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Why is it “only a £10k pay rise”?

      In terms of relative to my own salary, of course I’d take a $10k pay raise to move to another job.

      Are you saying that even with the £10k pay rise, it’s still too low for what the title is? In other words, doesn’t matter what you were making as Teapot Manager. Would whatever the salary be for Senior Teapot Manager match what you’re being offered?

      1. DVZ*

        I say “only” because theoretically this is a big step up in terms of title, and IMO a £10k jump just seems low, not that £10k is something to sniff at necessarily. And yes I think it’s just objectively too low for the role – but my point was kind of like, since it’s a step up in title and responsibility (theoretically), even if it’s a bit underpaid, would it be worth it to move? Or is it a waste of time/not worth it?

        1. Bea W*

          If 10k wasn’t a deal breaker, I would consider other factors depending where my priorities are at, and weigh all the pros and cons of staying vs. taking the job. These could be anything from commute to the actual tasks and what it might do in terms of advancing my career.

          Have you already applied or interviewed with this company? What I tell my friends who are unsure about a job is if they think it is something they honestly think they would like to do, apply and take an interview if offered. It’s the only way to really find out what you need to know to make that decision, and you are never obligated to accept an offer if it gets made. Most things are also negotiable, at least they are in the US. Salary is always a range at that level. If 10k higher is the average or in the middle, the company might be willing to pay more, especially for the right person. If 10k higher is their absolute high end of their range, then there may be other benefits that can be negotiated on like PTO.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      Not at this point in my career. Maybe 10 years ago, when $10K (or whatever 10K pounds works out to) was a more significant percentage of my earnings. But I’d want more at this point in my life IF I’d have to leave a position in which I am happy, given how badly I’ve been burned by entering into situations where I didn’t have as much information as I thought I did.

      On the other hand, if I *weren’t* happy at my job, I would — and have — take a new job at the same salary, or maybe even a little less, although thankfully I haven’t had to take a major pay cut since way back when I went from for-profit to nonprofit for a little while.

      1. DVZ*

        Thanks, this is helpful to think about in terms of stages of my career. I feel like I’m right at the fine line between worth it/not worth it for me, but I’m leaning towards it not being worth it given everything I like about my curret job. Thanks!

    4. Dizzy Steinway*

      Once you take off tax, it’ll be a lot less than £10k. I’d look at the real numbers – try using a PAYE calculator (I’ve found the MSE one comes out accurately).

      1. DVZ*

        Good point. I’ve done all the calculations and it only works out about £400/$500 extra a month. Nothing to sniff for sure, but it’s not life-changing money for me at this stage. Definitely something to think about. If I hang on to my current job and wait for a promotion, I am fairly sure I can get a £15-20k rise which would be about £900/$1100 a month which is a lot more enticing.

        1. Bea W*

          I would say you are answering your own question!

          If you are confident that you can progress in your career with a promotion at your current job and get a higher pay rise, I would say stay where you are at. I have been in jobs where further advancement wasn’t possible. So the only option was to apply somewhere else or that next step even if it wasn’t a great jump in pay, but when like my work and my employer I am must more interested in staying and working towards a promotion from within.

          I currently work for a company that doesn’t promote, period. You literally have to apply for another job and compete with external candidates. That might be totally appropriate in some cases, but as a blanket rule, it is very bad for morale and retention. :-(

  143. New Window*

    Freedom is in the air, and it can’t come soon enough.

    I’m still on cloud nine after being accepted to my top choice for grad school. I’ve been burned out for a long time, so this news is pure joy. Now, if I worked for a boss who wasn’t an unreasonable jerk in a dysfunctional organization, I’d have told her right away so that we can start the changeover process. But I don’t! So I haven’t!

    My boss has regularly:
    – Complained to me about every single one of my coworkers and badmouthed all the people who were here before me. Across the board. Her complaints include snide remarks on their personal lives and sexual orientation. Positive comments about former staff are immediately tempered by remarks on their shortcomings.
    – Routinely turned “just a quick 5-minute question” into hour-long monologues on her personal life. (This mostly ended when she finally realized she would have to pay me to be her counselor. I’ve become a bit better at shutting these down, thanks to AAM and the commenters here. You guys save my sanity!)
    – Made me share hotel rooms with her multiple. Also, made me f$*^ing share a bed with a coworker. This still makes my blood boil.
    – Taken away any hope I had to do the work I was most interested and motivated to do, and instead put me on an endless treadmill of boring, brain-killing tasks.
    – Turned staff-retreats into The Boss Show to highlight how much she sacrifices for the organization
    – Effectively killed needed long-term improvement projects by removing her own attention and support from them.
    – Chased away competent staff who held great promise to build and support our organization.

    We’re a 10-person organization.In the handful of years I’ve been here, we’ve gone through 7 people. One of my coworkers, Fergus, also left for grad school. Fergus was extremely competent and the Boss’s favorite. He diligently worked on handover processes and transition planning for several months. In the final month, Boss found reason to decide that he was disloyal, ungrateful, uncooperative, and a drag on the organization.

    So I’m keeping mum for now. But you can bet your financial assets that my tolerance to put up with her BS has gone way down. Sweet, sweet freedom is in the air.

  144. Collie*

    I’ve been taking some online courses through Gale that are relevant to my career path. I have it listed on my master resume at the moment and I have a Google Sheet that tracks what I’ve taken, what I’m currently taking, the dates, the instructor, whether I completed it, and whether there was a certificate issued (so far, all have). I don’t think I’d include this on a submitted resume, but I don’t want this work to be for nothing, either.

    Do hiring managers look upon these kinds of things favorably? Is it worth bringing up if it’s relevant in an interview or even including in application materials?

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      I might be interested in the course if it was relevant. I wouldn’t care about the certificate.

  145. Batshua*

    This week I got in trouble for … being caught up on work.

    Apparently, I should ALWAYS look busy, even if I don’t *actually* have anything to do.

    I should point out I wasn’t playing on my phone or anything, I was sitting attentively waiting for the next patient.

    I’ve been trying to fill my time with optional trainings, but they are terrible and mind-numbing, so I’m not learning anything and eventually they just make me annoyed. I have also asked coworkers for work, but I’m frustrated because I get in trouble when I do things that “aren’t my job”, (assigned to another coworker’s station) but when I’m caught up, I’m in trouble for not having work!

    Advice?

    1. Collie*

      I usually try to ask senior folks and peers if there’s anything I can help out with (there’s no one junior to me, but I suppose I’d ask them to if it came to it). If there’s really nothing, I try to find some way to develop professionally (reading industry news, reorganizing files, writing up instruction documents, free online courses). And if I can’t do that (or just really don’t have the mind for it that day), I’ll read general news, read AAM archives, write…

      It’s not what I prefer to do, but if there’s truly nothing else to be done, there’s no sense staring at the wall.

    2. Camellia*

      It depends on how much time you have. How long do you usually have to wait for the next patient? Is it more than a few minutes? You mention optional training, so that sounds like you have large chunks of unoccupied time. If that is the case, you really do need to find something to do. You may need to make more of an effort to find training you can enjoy or at least is not mind-numbing. Can you do anything physical, like, I dunno, tidy shelves or clean out old files?

      It’s hard to make recommendations without knowing more about your job and responsibilities.

      1. Batshua*

        Appointments are no shorter than 3o minutes. We don’t have paper files, as such; the patients have electronic medical records. We do have paperwork, but that isn’t the responsibility of the person that was in my position on the day in question (we rotate), such that I’d be “stealing” work from my coworkers. I routinely offer to help my coworkers, but often they say they’re fine with their workload. My bosses don’t believe me when I say I don’t have work to do. They seem to think I’m making it up as an excuse to goof off — and I’m not goofing off!

        Hell, I’d make copies and stamp envelopes and do appointment cards, but we don’t NEED any of that stuff right now.

        1. Batshua*

          … I’m a little concerned that they’re just using it as an excuse to register complaints against me.

          1. Batshua*

            (I’m hoping that’s my workplace PTSD talking and not an actual Thing.)

            OH! Good news!

            Even though I have been sucking at getting to work on time despite my best efforts, after my union rep meeting this week, I inexplicably managed to arrive TEN MINUTES EARLY every single other day this week.

            I don’t know why, I don’t know how, but I’m gonna go with it.

        2. Bea W*

          Have you discussed this with your bosses outside of a time where they aren’t scolding your for not doing work? They are the people who can help this the most, but giving you other things to do, and then it won’t be doing things that aren’t your job. If you haven’t tried this already, sit down with one or all of your bosses and ask for more work. Explain you often complete your tasks and find yourself looking for something else to do, and are interested in taking on more work. Maybe you can think of some novel project to do that wouldn’t be doing other people’s jobs, but be helpful to your bosses or the practice in general, or even something useful for patients.

          You mention having a union rep below. Would that person have any helpful advice?

          I wish I occasionally had this problem. I would be happy to give you plenty of work! On the very rare occasion we have someone in my office that is asking for more work, my manager has other priorities such that even if things I can delegate are real priorities with real deadlines (not made up ones), I generally am prevented from delegating even after being asked to do so. I also never get to delegate the general office type work. Apparently, it’s not a good use of someone else’s time. It’s also not a good use of my time with all the other things in my queue that can’t be easily delegated. Please come steal everyone’s filing! :D

  146. AliceBD*

    Can I tell someone to please stop apologizing?

    I do the social media/blogging for a particular brand. We are the biggest brand in this space, so outsiders can be intimidated/impressed by us, but our office is fairly small and we have a tiny marketing department compared to the size of our product. We have a few bloggers who write us blogs for our site to supplement the ones we write in-house. Some of the bloggers do one every month, while others do it occasionally.

    One of the occasional bloggers suggested an idea to us a few weeks ago and I said go ahead. I did not give her a due date as it didn’t matter when we received or posted this blog (it isn’t coordinating with any other content, as sometimes happens). She told me she would have it by a certain day.

    On or before the due date she set, she sent me an email apologizing and saying her computer crashed and she would get the blog to me late because she had to use a friend’s computer. I said fine. She had to delay it again, and she kept me updated, and I kept saying that it was OK and thanks for letting me know. I purposefully used exclamation marks a lot to seem friendly. She delayed several times because she did not build in time in her initial estimate for additional things to go wrong.

    She finally sent the blog. In the final set of emails of her sending it and me acknowledging I got the writing and all the pictures she apologized 3 times. Apology, send blog, apology, I confirm I got it and it will go up next week, profuse apology.

    She was getting on my nerves and I realized it is because she will not stop apologizing! She is an adult in her 40s. Per LinkedIn she has been a receptionist/assistant in offices for at least a decade. She is not new to the working world and not new to office jobs.

    Our other bloggers are also sometimes late, and give me a heads up and ask for more time. I also approve them to be late. But they ask once and apologize once in the initial email, and don’t fall over themselves apologizing.

    (Additionally this blogger I am annoyed with sends me her blog very piecemeal. Writing this out I think I need to help her get a Dropbox like everyone in my office knows how to use or learn how to use WordPress like the other outside bloggers.)

    Can I tell this blogger to please stop apologizing? And how often can I tell her? Every extra time? It took months of her writing blogs with terrible pictures and me telling her explicitly how to take better pictures and making her retake them all before they were finally good enough on the first try (this time) so I doubt she’ll stop apologizing right away.

    1. fposte*

      Since this isn’t a workflow thing, I’d ask once for what you want and let it go. “Jane, I’m not just being nice if I say you don’t have to apologize; if you apologize more than once on a delay, it makes me think something’s going really wrong and I get more concerned.” And if that doesn’t change her, I’d just ignore it, because it’s something you can ignore.

      You can also directly ask her to submit things how you want; that’s a workflow thing, so it’s right up your alley to request. It sounds like she’s an anxious amateur uncertain about professional practice; it might be useful to you to separate “this bugs me about her” from “this is not how things need to be submitted for our work.”

    2. ..Kat..*

      Unfortunately, this can be a female thing. Many women are raised to feel responsible for everything. And when something goes wrong, we have been conditioned to take the blame and apologize over and over again. You probably can’t change this. Just find a way to ignore it (a good life skill to have for things you cannot change).

  147. Accidental Analyst*

    Just venting. I’m reporting to a new boss . . . and I don’t trust them. There was a situation that involved two other companies. One part was likely our fault and two other parts were company b’s fault. My boss decided to focus on the first part, ignored the other two parts and ripped into company b saying the first part was their fault. So my boss ignored what I said about the three issues and respective ow ership of fault, focussed on the least important issue, didn’t raise the real concerns, and was unnecessarily antagonistic.

    1. Bea W*

      Ugh! I know this situation! Someone once literally handed me a corrective action plan that did something similar, just opposite, blaming us (me specifically) for the piece that was company b’s fault. I refused to sign it, and my manager rewrote it so that other people in my office were taking the blame.

      Um…this whole corrective action plan things is a huge waste of time if we can’t say what the real causes were. The document was not even going to be seen by company b. It was internal, but I was told flat out, we can’t actually say that in a document, that the client was responsible for any piece of anything that went awry.

      I left that job.

      1. Accidental Analyst*

        I hate the whole politics of blame in the workplace. I firmly believe that people should take responsibility for what they did/didn’t do. It’s the only way to fix the issues/get a better product/be better for the customers etc. Unfortunately politics seems to mean that if you accept blame for one part you end up shouldering it for all. Because of this all the energy is going in to trying to pin the blame and not fix the issues. Sorry it’s a particular bugbear of mine at the moment.

  148. Callalily*

    I was looking for some advice on planning a big vacation in September 2019 (I know, far ways out).

    My husband and I are travelling to Europe for an 8 day trip between 2 countries. I can’t even start actually planning until around September 2018 when I am able to start bookings and get early payment discounts.

    A rough itinerary shows that I’ll need a full week off of work plus 2-3 days the week prior. At my current workplace (I’ve been here a year) this will not be a problem at all, I just need to work around 1 reasonable coworker to avoid us both being on vacation at the same time.

    But the problem is that I didn’t intend on staying here until Sept 2019!! I was hoping to move on to a bigger firm by spring 2019 (possibly even mid-late 2018). This is a very toxic workplace and I was trying to stay the minimum time necessary for it to look decent in a job search.

    I’m now anxious that if I end up leaving here that we’ll be out thousands and not even be able to go on this trip. I’ve read all over that if you have travel plans shortly after starting there is no reason to fret. But this could be potentially be over a year after I am hired – I can’t really request a vacation be honored so far out.

    I keep on thinking that there will be a policy of no more than a week off, or someone else will have my dates booked, or a vacation ban during that entire period… I am probably over-thinking it but I know this stuff can happen and cause me to cancel a pre-planned trip.

    I don’t know if I am being ridiculous or if I should commit myself to working here until much closer to my trip (despite any opportunities that may arise), this trip is just so important to me that I am worried about risking it.

    1. fposte*

      Well, I wouldn’t pre-pay for a vacation that I might have to forfeit. I know that’s hard for those of us who are preplanners and prepayers by nature, but I think you’d be better off planning in early 2019 when you know more about where you’ll be, and sticking to refundable/low-deposit bookings.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        I agree. Callalily, I think you’re overthinking, and that preplanned vacations are a very normal part of the offer negotiation process. On the other hand, 2019 is a LONG time away, so why not wait until closer to the date to make nonrefundable plans?

    2. EA*

      Just ask about it up front when you get an offer. Say that you know it is far out, but you had booked a trip for X many days.

    3. Callalily*

      I guess I may have been going overboard thinking about booking non-refundables in late 2018! I’ll really have to have someone hide all of my credit cards from me around that time.

      I’ll aim to start actually booking in March 2019 – that way if I do get hired somewhere after plans are made, the vacation will only be 6 months away and reasonable to negotiate.

    4. Caledonia*

      A) 8 days isn’t really that long, it’s not like you are asking for 8 weeks.
      B) Although you had already come to this conclusion, by planning so far ahead so many things can change such as businesses or hotels or whatever going out of business.

      It sounds like by waiting until much closer to the time is far better.

  149. Anon for This*

    I have an on-going issue with being taken seriously. I’m in my late thirties and have been through a lot in life. But, thanks to random physical features, I look very young and innocent. If I dress more maturely, I just get, “sheltered young person from a privileged background”. On top of that, I have other physical differences due to a medical condition. Too much to summarize here, but it contributes to the “weak, awkward young person” picture. I try to explain to people, “I’m in my late thirties and have a medical condition,” but it rarely seems to sink in.

    I’ve been volunteering at an organization that needed help with things relevant to my background but couldn’t afford to hire someone with that expertise. They’ve decided that I’m an intern. And they’ve offered to promote me to an entry level job. I made a number of efforts to have a conversation about it but haven’t gotten anywhere. So it’s time to move on again. I’m really tired of this happening. I need to either find an employer who understands or get better at addressing this kind of situation. Evidently, I still haven’t found the best way to communicate about it. So I’m self-employed and under employed but still dealing with some of the same thing there.

    1. Going anon again*

      Sorry you are dealing with this. Maybe talk to a good hairstylist to get some ideas on how to make yourself look more your own age. It’s amazing what a difference hair can make.

      As far as clothes… I’ve found bold jewelry can help make any outfit look more sophisticated. I don’t know if you’ve tried this already, but it can help.

    2. fposte*

      This may be two different things, though–you’ve said they couldn’t afford to hire somebody with your expertise, so entry level was probably all they could afford. Volunteering often isn’t a great step into a job, and this is a good example of why. I would concentrate more on the regular job hunt methods–how is that going, and are you reliably getting interviews from your resume?

      1. The IT Manager*

        I would generally not expect volunteering to lead to mid or senior level job.

        However I’m pretty confused about Anon for this’s second paragraph. Was she just volunteering to volunteer and is now annoyed that they thought she was an intern and have now turn her volunteer position into an entry-level job. That’s how I read it, but I not sure why that’s no annoying.

      2. Anon for This*

        Oh, I should have explained this better. I took on the volunteer work for fun, to add something to my resume, to learn, and to have more contacts who could serve as references. I didn’t expect it to lead to a job. I knew that if it did, it would be lower paying. I’m ok with that. It’s the details that are an issue – being introduced to people outside of the organization as an intern, and being treated as though my experience and credentials don’t exist, as though they’re doing me a favor by letting me volunteer there. I know that’s a big red flag overall. But I find myself in that type of situation a lot. Commonly, people seem to think they can walk all over me. I keep trying to make changes so I don’t keep having to deal with that kind of thing.

        1. fposte*

          What you’re describing doesn’t sound so much like a red flag to me as a bad fit, though; in general, volunteers don’t get bragged about or introduced around much anywhere, and people you’re working with as a volunteer often don’t know your background, so I don’t see this as being walked over, just as being a volunteer. If this is mostly annoyance that you were referred to as an intern, I think that’s something you can correct in the moment. “Actually, I’m just a volunteer–I’ve run my own PR company for a decade so I thought I could lend a hand here.”

          1. Office Plant*

            No, I wasn’t expecting to be bragged about or introduced around. I’m 20 years into my career. I know what’s normal. It’s an issue because I was a manager at my last job. If people think I’m interning now, it will sound remedial and reduce my job prospects.

            I think my post came across as blaming my under employment on this volunteer position. Instead, I meant that it was related to the on-going issue of being perceived as naive and not taken seriously. I only mentioned the volunteer job as part of a general update.

            1. fposte*

              Okay, sorry for the misunderstanding–but then I go back to the job search question. Are you having problems specifically with interviews because of your appearance?

  150. Can't Sit Still*

    I am finishing up the second week of my new job. I smile all the time now! Even on the way to work! I really like my new job and my new team and pretty much everything about being here.

    I am so glad that I made the change and left my last job. I haven’t heard a peep out of them, despite my former manager’s threats to “track me down.” My replacement is due to start on Monday, so I may hear something next week, but hopefully not.

  151. bibliovore*

    Found out this week that I was approved for tenure!!!!
    Wooo h00!
    Took a vacation day today and spent the morning volunteering at a writing center for an under resourced school with Mr. Bibliovore. Work/life balance getting better everyday.

  152. Evelyn Waugh*

    I know there are a lot of excellent writers here and I wanted some opinions on a particular issue: pluralizing acronyms.

    Let’s say you’re copy-editing a document with the following text (and one of your jobs is to polish the acronyms):

    “All Program Managers should be cats. A good Program Manager needs skills that only cats have. If all Program Managers were cats, then every Program Manager would be super-adorable.”

    Here’s how I would edit that:

    “All Program Managers (PMs) should be cats. A good PM needs skills that only cats have. If all PMs were cats, then every PM would be super-adorable.”

    I received some training yesterday, from someone whose skills I don’t really trust, that stated acronyms should never be pluralized by adding a lower-case s, and that in the above example “Program Managers” should be abbreviated to just “PM”. (And then I don’t know what they thought should happen when “Program Manager” was used subsequently. Logically, it seems it shouldn’t be abbreviated at all because PM has already been used. In the rare instance where I’ve seen a plural term get abbreviated as a singular acronym, the document has gone on to use the singular acronym to ALSO mean the singular term, which is clearly wrong and I have fixed it to pluralize the initial acronym usage if possible.)

    Any thoughts?

    1. Evelyn Waugh*

      Argh, I was so sure I posted this as a top-level comment but I see I made it a reply. I’m going to repost it since I can’t edit it. PLEASE DON’T REPLY HERE.

      1. Evelyn Waugh*

        Oh, I guess I did make it a top-level comment. NEVER MIND. Sorry, I don’t normally post in the comments, I just read them.

    2. Hiding From You*

      Ugh. You are correct, and that person is making life harder for copy editors the world over.

    4. fposte*

      So she’s saying a sentence should read “PM are expected to handle the following”? Nope. Readers need signaling that you’re differentiating the plural from the singular.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Like everyone here (so far) I agree. I do some light copy editing for my company. PM would read singular to me, so “PM are” would drive me nuts.

    5. Mephyle*

      It’s a style issue. The vast majority of style guides (if not all of them) agree that PMs would be the appropriate form here for ‘program managers’.

    7. Stella'sMom*

      To add to all the other comments here, it is PMs – “The PMs are all from Cats, Inc.”. Also, it is not “PMS”. ;)

      I was the native English speaker in an office of folks from several languages…. then (see my comment above) when I got a new boss, her English, while native, was not great. She’d mix up “it’s” and “its” and would add apostrophes to every dang word she could – seriously, it was egregious. After getting thru the 9th version of the annual report, as I was doing a final copy edit….I finally gave up, let her change things back… and figured that trying to convince someone on a grammar issue was pointless, and now that I am being laid off, I am ok with giving up on this. Sometimes you have to pick your “battle’s”. :)

  153. Cruciatus*

    So it’s very nearly complete that I will be transferring from one department to another! It likely won’t be for at least a month, though, which is a bit of a bummer, but best for my current department. At lunch I’ll have to confirm details with HR. I’m hoping they will give me the extra money I asked for since, as I work at a university huge on equity, I will likely not get an actual raise raise potentially ever (but can earn a 2% yearly raise). It will either be an 11% or 13% increase. Was hoping for more, especially as I’m only in the 30K region so a 13% increase isn’t as exciting as it could be otherwise, but it’s more than now in what I think will be a less stressful department. I’ve only been in this position just over 1.5 years and I’m actually the first person to even leave the department in that time as well. It’s all a bit awkward. Though I’m waiting to cross my t’s and dot my i’s, I finally told my boss today (who knew it might be coming as she spoke to my new supervisor already). So, that’s just the excitement of the day. Hopefully all details will be hammered out soon!

    1. Cruciatus*

      I’ve officially accepted now, and did get the 13% raise, and will still be eligible in July or so for the COLA raise since I’m an internal transfer! Woo! I feel so relieved that it’s done now as my supervisor already started off emails to people about being on a search committee for my replacement. I had this slight worry that something would happen to the job before I could accept. I have a month to go left in my position but the end is now in sight! So I’ve had some good news in a crappy week (to be shared in the weekend thread…)

  154. DD*

    Not a lot of news about ongoing changes where I work. I did get a good… sign, I guess. My manager’s manager was let go a week ago, about a month after HER manager. So we were all on edge. But my manager’s manager’s temporary replacement pulled me aside a couple of days back and told me that a lot of people are very impressed with my work, and to just hang in there while we deal with the re-org. So I guess that’s a good sign. If nothing else, it was nice to get positive feedback.

    Meantime, my manager’s still away since her manager was let go. He took an impromptu vacation for a week. It’s frustrating, because as a team we could probably use some leadership at this time. Sigh.

  155. Anonomatic Yo Yo*

    Desperately need help/advice!

    So this god-awful project at work has dragged on and on and the resourcing is still a mess and I have been, effectively, on this full time for the last nine weeks. NINE WEEKS – looking at the same topic, chasing the same facts, the same sources. I can handle the Iterative Process, that is how my work normally goes, but we aren’t iterating. At all. Unfortunately the problem is the project manager who (very obviously) would rather do the work himself because a) its what he knows and b) hes stuck on other stuff right now that doesn’t play to his strengths. Here’s the problem:

    a) He changes his mind constantly – what you thought you agreed in the meeting yesterday is not the case today. Does not work to follow up with email as he either ignores it or changes his mind in the email, tossing out new ideas that come to his head and new requests for data.

    b) He wants more and more and more data to fit either a narrative hes constructed in his head or things he just wants to know. Giving him more does not solve the problem (yes I know this is bad – dont feed the beast)

    c) I am trying to move on to the more advanced thought by laying out the overall picture and key implications (because the broader story hasn’t changed since I figured it out in the first few weeks), he says “its too soon you should keep focusing on facts” despite the fact that I have got reams and reams and reams of facts, sources (everything laid out and cited) summing up/supporting trends. This is not enough. He wants more, or different, or this fact and not that fact in every new version

    d) I am getting stress/eye strain headaches from dealing with this day after day. There is an arbitrary deadline but it doesnt really exist. I am at a manager level and have almost a decade of experience dealing with full projects, not just small components like this. It is a massive waste of resource money to expend me at doing, essentially, intern level work with no challenge, ability to grow, or develop my internal network (important, see below:)

    e) I just started this job and while I burned through my first assignment with good professionalism and quality work, this guy has completely misallocated me (the other 50% of my time was supposed to be on another project he was leading but he couldnt give up the reigns on that either) for the past 2.5 months. He is not my boss or line manager and we have the same amount of experience but he is a level above me (likely due to industry knowledge)

    f) He has driven the other two people on the project insane and one of them has asked to be moved off it completely (and will be getting that wish). The other is fully capable of compartmentalizing things and deflecting with time spent on another project so that now, in the end, my component is the only one he has to focus on and focus on that he does.

    f) There are moments about every day where I am ready to get up, walk out and quit over this. I have asked to be moved off onto another project to balance the workload (and an excuse to not do the work) but that won’t be allocated for another week. However, despite that I will still be stuck 50% with this. Im Type A and like to drive for results and accomplish work efficiently and effectively and this is driving me completely nuts. Apparently no one notices or cares?!

    Readers, how do I tame the confused data beast and let this not drive me insane? Do I set a limit on the amount of data I give him and the time I spend since he is just going to change everything anyway? Or do I make a more subtle play in another few weeks to get moved off it completely, citing other responsibilities (I was just given a direct report) etc?

    Halp!

  156. Charlie Q*

    Friends!! I got a job offer this week!!

    It’s temp to hire and minimum wage but it’s more or less my first proper job after college/AmeriCorps so I’m totally happy with it. The schedule is PERFECT (6a-2:30p M-F) so I can still do all the extracurriculars I care about. And I’m such a routine-dependent person so I’m super excited to have enough structure in my days that I can manage everything else.

    Alison’s interview guide was a godsend, and I even bought & wore a suit for the first time in my life — even though I hate spending more than $15 for a piece of clothing.

    Thank you all for your encouragement & support! :)

    1. Hilorious*

      Amazing! Congratulations!

      Also, any tips for early wake ups (you mention a 6am start time)? I’m considering doing a 6am exercise class, but the idea of being up that early terrifies me.

      1. Charlie Q*

        For me, it’s all about routine. If I have a) a bedtime routine and b) a morning routine, getting up is easy. In college, I got up for a 6am exercise class 5 days/week, and I had my morning so scheduled that I didn’t think much until I was at the gym. My roommate knocked on my door when she got up (for the same class) and I got dressed, grabbed my wallet/keys, grabbed a banana and walked out the door.

        It’s a little harder without a cheerful roommate to wake me at 5:30am but I like to have plans for the morning: what I’ll wear, what I’ll eat, in what order I’ll get dressed, brush my teeth, make coffee, etc.

  157. Gene*

    A down side of having office cats (semi-feral).

    The female just brought us a “gift”. Said rodent was already dead, so when we didn’t show enough interest in it, she played with it for a while. Then the crunching started and now we have to clean up the gore from the floor.

    But is has been over a year since we’ve seen any evidence of mice in the office.

    1. Rebecca*

      I wish we had an “office” cat! That would be so awesome. But I understand someone would have to take care of the feeding, water, litter box, shots, vet visits, etc.

      1. Natalie*

        Possibly, although if they’re feral cats they’ll take care of a lot of those things on their own. My local humane society has a whole “working cat” program where they speuter the feral cats and then relocate them to fire stations, grain warehouses, construction sites, etc. The cats pretty much handle their own biz, although now that you mention it the humane society might provide them with vet care periodically.

        1. Gene*

          Pretty much this. Near as we can tell, they were born under our trailer (office is in a double-wide at a wastewater treatment plant), then mom disappeared after they were weaned. I trapped them and had them speutered (love that word!) by the local feral cat group, then returned them to under the trailer. There were three, but the other girl disappeared about 3 months later. The female has tamed much more than the male, though he’s coming around. He’s much friendlier with the other two guys, I’m still the ogre who trapped him. :)

          The only real duty is someone comes in and gives them gooshy food on the weekends. But if that doesn’t happen, they do just fine.

  158. KR*

    I supposed to start a job Monday but I haven’t heard from the hiring person or my new boss. I’m going to be so upset if I can’t start.

    1. Natalie*

      It’s not really that unusual to not hear from an employer between the time that you accept and confirm start date, and when you actually start. Is there a particular reason you’re concerned that the job won’t start?

      1. KR*

        I guess I should have been more specific. It was a lot to type out. I was supposed to start 2 weeks ago, but the state I used to live in has a backlog in the courts as far as background checks go, so I wasn’t able to start 2 weeks ago and the state delayed it 2 weeks. I found out pretty last minute too. Same thing just happened. I called the hiring person to check to make sure they got the background check squared away and I was okay to start Monday and the state just delayed the background check for ANOTHER 2 weeks. My husband works so we won’t go broke, but we are still hurting for money. I don’t think my manager is mad at me because he’s a decent person, but I’m supposed to fly to 2 different cities in my first couple of weeks and this is the second time he’s had to cancel and rebook a flight for me before I’ve even had a chance to start working to prove myself. I’m just terrified they’re going to decide it’s too much of a hassle and go with someone else even though I know they won’t. And I hate being a housewife. I don’t have kids so I’m just sitting around every day waiting for my husband to get home. It sucks.

    2. Dizzy Steinway*

      Why are you expecting to hear from them? You have your start date, you’re good to go!

  159. Mimmy*

    tl;dr – First of two questions in 2 posts: #1 What to do when you’re hired for a job despite zero training in a particular field, knowing that training would be immensely useful.

    First week at NewJob is in the books!! It is a temporary state position, and I am abnormally giddy about having my own state-issued email and ID!

    While overall, everyone has been very welcoming and have offered their support, this job is not without its downsides (what job isn’t, right?!). I have two issues in particular that concern me. I’ll do this in two separate posts because I need help! lol.

    First: Turns out I’ll be working with a particular primary instructor as an aide. I won’t have my own, assigned students; we will be sharing as needed. From what I’m gathering, my role is to so that they can increase instructional coverage because this primary instructor is only there 3 days a week. Right now I’m there 4 days a week learning the ropes, but I think they eventually want me to be able to cover the two days she isn’t working; not sure about the third day.

    Here’s the problem: The center I’m working at is instruction-focused, so you would think that any instructors and instructor aides hired would be required to have a background in education, particularly special education, because these are adult students with a primary disability of blindness or vision impairment, many of whom have secondary disabilities as well. Do I fit that criteria? NOPE! The only thing going for me is excellent keyboarding and computer skills (I’m working with the keyboarding instructor, aimed at those with little to no knowing of typing. This is one of several instructional areas).

    While chatting with my primary instructor the other day, it dawned on me that I have no special education training. In fact, I have ANY education training. Granted, there is never more than two students in the room at a time, and instruction is generally 1:1. Yet … I’m dreading the day I start working with students by myself. I learning the curriculum myself so that I can be familiar with the lessons, but I don’t know how to *instruct* – teach the student about the keyboard, give prompts if a technique is wrong, handling difficult personalities, etc.

    Advice on this is greatly needed!!! I’d particularly like to hear from those in special education or similar fields.

    1. Mimmy*

      Didn’t mean to bold the “tl;dr” paragraph – looks a little garish under my (bolded) username!

  160. Rebecca*

    :) :) :) I got a new chair today! I’m putting it together now. Wee!! It’s the little things that bring joy sometimes.

    1. MWKate*

      I am unreasonably jealous about this. Some of the chairs here are literally falling apart. One of my team member’s chairs slowly lowers throughout the day and she has to keep raising it. They did an online “chair survey” a few months ago, but nothing has happened from it yet.

      Enjoy the little things!

      1. Rebecca*

        That’s what my chair was doing, except it wasn’t slowly lowering, it was doing it suddenly. It was very jarring. My new chair is an Alera ALE-LG41ME10B, and was reasonably priced. It is SO COMFORTABLE! (I hope it’s OK that I gave the brand and model number). And even better, the highest setting is too high off the ground for me! I have longish legs, and I don’t have to put it up to the highest level to feel even semi-comfortable. It is wonderful!

    3. ..Kat..*

      A smart person finds joy in little things. And, thus, is happier. And, thus, has a more enjoyable life!

  161. acmx*

    I’m looking for a phrase or two to motivate slower employees. Get them to focus on the task at hand. When there’s a large volume that needs to be processed, it’s easy to prod them along.

    There’s no real goals or metrics for them to meet and they’re under a CBA.

    Sorry this is not more coherent…insomnia and an upset stomach is leaving me a little unfocused. But I’ve managed to remember my question and get it in before 1000 posts (at the time of my typing haha).

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      Maybe giving them goals and metrics might help create a sense of the required pace?

      1. Ultraviolet*

        Probably “collective bargaining agreement,” an agreement negotiated by an employees’ labor union. In context of acmx’s post, I’m guessing the point is that the CBA spells out a lot of time-consuming steps that are required in order to fire an employee, so acmx can’t really motivate the slow employees very well by telling them they need to work faster or be fired, because they know they would have multiple chances to improve (or something) before acmx could actually let them go.

      3. acmx*

        Collective bargaining agreement; union.
        We have one metric for them as a whole but nothing individual and they won’t get one unfortunately.

    3. Sidestep*

      I do mini challenges like: let’s try to finish x number of teapots today. It feels a bit childish, but can work in a fun way of you don’t want to go with the formal metrics route. A bit of pressure goes a long way, if you can find a way to manufacture some.

      1. acmx*

        Yeah that might be something to try. At least one task does have another department that in next in the process so that’s a prod.

        (the site really slows down my phones keyboard/typing today)

  162. Tookie Clothespin*

    I just wanted to say how grateful I am that AAM exists. I’ve just been assigned to a location one day a week and my work station is the only table in the office kitchen/ break room. It’s not the greatest for productivity (and smells like crazy after everyone makes their lunch). Sure enough a similar situation had come up and was on here. Thanks Alison!

  163. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I forgot my lunch today. But, good news, my contract at one workplace was up, so I found another at the same, higher than average, pay.

    But 15 MINUTES from home! Usually the commute is 40 minutes to an hour, all told, and I have to pay for bus fare and gas to get to a park and ride. Now I can just drive though, so cost goes from $45 to $15 a week for transportation.

    1. Spoonie*

      That’s super exciting, congratulations! Also, sorry on the no lunch. I keep a stash of some noodle in a cup type things in my drawer for this exact reason.

  164. Kalliopesmom*

    I have an update from my post last week. My boss told me this week that I would still have to help the other woman I reiterated that I didn’t want to work with her. He told me just talk to her and see what happens. I decided to send an email to the President and express my concerns. A very detailed email with all the incidents, bathroom mess included. Later that day, she arrives with work for me to complete. I smile and do as requested since I didn’t want to get in trouble with my boss and had not heard back from the President yet. There is no incident this time, actually she is completely different while my boss is around. The next day the President calls me and asks to speak with me in private. I go outside to have a smoke break and speak with him on my cell. He is appalled at the behavior, assures me that I am doing a great job, wonderful fit and he doesn’t want to lose me. He states that he will handle the problem and I am no longer to do work for her. If she comes back to my office I am to say, per Mr. President I do not work for you, please call him. I am overjoyed! I don’t like to have to go above my boss, but I don’t feel like he was really understanding how horrible this situation was for me. And whether or not this woman is his SO, that is none of my business but should not be my problem either. WHen President asked about this situation I stated that I would not speak on it either way, its none of my business and he said he respected that. I am not a gossip, what people do in their privates lives is just that private. But when someone that I don’t work for is rude, disrespectful to me and takes credit for the work that I do, that is when I will speak up. I feel more valued than last week and hope that this will not go back to the way it was. Thanks for reading – have a wonderful weekend!!!

  165. Drax*

    I am a little sad and wondering if I am being silly?
    I just came back from vacation to find out that a new coworker, let’s call them Star Lord, had let go. I’m a little sad about this because SL and I had a lot to talk about because of a professional interest in a subset of our broader field. I like all my other colleagues but almost none of them are interested in Infinity Stones. Unfortunately, if SL was let go that means they did SOMETHING VERY VERY BAD AND PROBABLY ILLEGAL OR AT LEAST DISHONEST/BROADLY OFFENSIVE. I’d known SL for about 4 months and never got any bad vibe from them, but I am not great with people/personalities and I am very focused on guarding the galaxy with a special interest in Infinity Stones. There are like 2 people that know why SL was fired and since they aren’t saying anything that reinforces the VERY BAD THING assumption, but I’m pretty sure they will not associate me with any bad behavior on the part of SL. I guess what I have learned from this is that next time I change jobs I need to find a place where there are a lot of Infinity Stone geeks like me, so I will have other people to talk to (I talk to my current coworkers and really like them, but it was really nice to SL here). Am I being silly?

      1. Tedious Cat*

        The OP and this reply just made my geeky little day. I hope you find someone to talk Infinity Stones with soon, Drax.

    2. Bea W*

      It’s normal to be sad when someone just gets let go. Totally normal. It’s also just jarring no matter who is it.

      You said you are assuming the reason must be because SL did something “very very bad and probably illegal or at least dishonest”. That’s not always the case. It can be, but people also get let go for lesser offenses and for things that look bad but don’t necessarily mean they are a bad person. The very bad thing can also be an honest mistake that a company was just not willing to forgive – clicking on an infected email attachment, accidentally using the corporate card for a personal expense, being unable to renew a visa, or simply just not working up to expectations. That last one would probably be one of the most common reasons someone would be let go after 4 months. Some companies have zero tolerance policies for things that seem like minor infractions. Sometimes “let go” actually means “laid off”. People don’t like to talk about lay offs and cuts either.

      In 17 years in my career, I’ve known only one person left go for something actually bad, and he I don’t think he had any malicious intent. He wasn’t trying to cause harm, but what he did put our systems in potential violation of government regulations. That was very bad, but he wasn’t a bad person. He exercised some really poor judgement, and the company felt it was in their best interest to let him go.

      Can you ask directly why he was let go? They may not be saying anything because often these things are sensitive issues and sometimes people are told not to speak about them or they don’t feel comfortable announcing it, but might answer 1 on 1. While it’s true something not great probably happened, don’t assume the absolute worse.

      Also, if you can find him on LinkedIn or other social media, you can contact him directly and continue your non-work conversations.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        With this in mind, can you say something to your boss like, “I really enjoyed Star Lord’s company, and I was thinking about contacting him about some kind of social plans, would this be a problem for the company, or for my future at the company?” My boss, at least, wouldn’t have any issues with this kind of question.

        1. Drax*

          Should have clarified: the kind of place I work ONLY fires people suddenly due to VERY VERY BAD THINGS/ILLEGAL/WIDELY OFFENSIVE (telling one of the big bosses to f-off for example, belonging to a hate group, etc.) because of the sort of laws that govern our sort of institution.

          1. Drax*

            Also, SL’s boss and our big boss both said: we are not at liberty to say why but SL does not work here any more. That makes me think there is definitely a legal component. The place I work is not a business, so the rules are a bit different. I am 99% sure it wasn’t a performance issue, based on the overlap between my work, SL’s, and SL’s boss. Unfortunately I am not on social media, so that avenue is out. Thanks for the replies though.

  166. zora*

    Advice about sitting next to your boss????

    Very small team, we only have two small offices. Currently a couple of us sit in one office, and our boss sits in the other, with empty desks used by remote workers a few times a month. We are getting a new coworker next week, and my boss wants me to be the one to move to the boss’s office and sit right behind her. I am not happy for two reasons:

    1. I really don’t love this job, don’t feel like I’m really excelling at it(but all my reviews are good), and the added pressure of having her sitting right there, able to see anything on my screen and overhear any of my phone calls stresses me out. I have had a similar situation in the past, where I sat next to a boss, and she would often review and correct all of my phone calls as soon as I got off the phone, so I have a bit of PTSD around this.

    2. My boss is often on phone calls All. Day. Long. And I have some ADD issues, I already have trouble focusing in the office I am in sometimes, but it’s only a few times a week. But even with earbuds playing music, I really get distracted by people right next to me having long, loud conversations. I am really worried I won’t be able to focus and that my productivity will tank.

    I haven’t asked to sit somewhere else, because we have a super small space, and there just aren’t any other places for me to go. And it really does make more sense for the other people to sit together.

    We are considering moving to a different space, so I am going to do my best to move that timeline as quickly as I can, and see if I can find us a space where I don’t have to sit right next to my boss. So, I feel like that is the best long-term solution right now, but in the meantime, I will probably have to sit by her for at least a couple of months.

    I am trying all of the techniques from my therapist to not freak out about this, but it’s hard! Any advice about how not to freak out, or tips for keeping my focus next to someone who will usually be talking all day long every day? Or maybe solutions I haven’t thought of? Thank you!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Could you suggest that it might make more sense for the new hire, who will presumably need training, to be closer to the boss?

        1. zora*

          Yeah, I wish, but unfortunately, it’s the opposite. The new person should sit with the other coworkers, because they will be working together more. And it kind of makes sense for me to sit by the boss, because I support her and it’s easier for us to talk.

          Except for the fact that I have ADD, so that makes it super NOT easier for me. And I’ve never disclosed because it doesn’t actually affect my job normally.

  167. kiwifruit*

    How can I deal with interruptions when I’m on the phone more effectively?

    I feel like I get interrupted — a LOT — by people walking into my office, talking to other people, talking to me, moving things around, asking me if I can move things around. Today, the UPS guy came and knocked on my door and kept knocking (he probably could hear me so he knew I was there) and wouldn’t take the hint.

    Usually I end up telling the person on the line, “I’m sorry can you hold just a minute?” and then I tell the other person I’m busy or whatever and dealing with it. But sometimes the person on the phone gets interrupted MULTIPLE times in a conversation and if I asked if I can call them back it’s a, “Oh never mind I’ll figure it out myself,” because I work in sales and the point is for me to help them and make the sale.

    I pretty much just feel like there isn’t really anything else I can do to tell other people to stop interrupting me, because one day after I told my coworkers not to, the UPS guy does it.

    How do you deal with constant interruptions when you’re on the phone? It’s super distracting and I tend to lose sales from it because I lose my train of thought and don’t think as well on my feet when someone is DEMANDING me to give them my attention. AGHghghghhghhh

    1. Emi.*

      Do you absolutely have to deal with the distractions? Properly the phone call should take priority, since it has a prior claim. When someone tries to interrupt me on a call, I point at the phone, then hold up one finger, mouthing “HOLD ON A MINUTE” with an exaggeratedly frowny (worried, not angry) face. Then I turn my back.

      1. kiwifruit*

        yeah, I tried that. That’s when they just came in and talking, and I kept trying to “shoo” them out and pointing to the phone and they just ignored me. Maybe I’ll try a sign on the door. I hate being interrupted. How do you get back to what you’re focusing on when people do that sort of thing to you.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          “You interrupted me while I was talking to a customer. You have probably cost me a sale. Whatever you want from me, ask someone else.”

    2. Drew*

      Perhaps a sign on your door? “If you need to speak to me right now, please knock ONCE quietly and be patient; I’ll get to you as soon as I can. Otherwise, please check back in a few minutes or just send me email and I’ll let you know when I’m free.”

    3. ..Kat..*

      When this was happening to me, I printed a bunch of replies on index cards and would hold up the appropriate one without making eye contact. Such as
      -I’m on the phone.
      -Please check with Bob over to your left for assistance.
      – I am going to be on the phone for another 20 minutes. Please come back then.
      -Stop touching my stuff. I have secretly coated random possessions in deadly contact poisons. (Okay, I just wished I could do that one).

      You get the idea. Of course, you want to make sure this is okay with your boss.

      I found if I asked the person on the phone to hold for a minute, the interrupting person felt that gave them permission to talk to me for 20-30 minutes!

  168. anna green*

    I did it! I had an interview yesterday and I used Alison’s great interview guide to prep, and I asked the awesome question she recommends:

    “Thinking back to people who have been in this position previously, what differentiated the ones who were good from the ones who were really great?”

    And, of course, it worked great! The interviewer immediately thought about the past and mentioned that one thing good employees struggled with was this one technical aspect of the job that we had actually already discussed I had experience with. And she even said, oh that sounds like it won’t be a problem for you. And I was able to give another example of how I would rock that aspect of the job.

    Thanks Alison!

  169. Mimmy*

    tl;dr – Second of two questions: Seems like my primary instructor and the supervisor are butting heads on some things, and I’m in the middle!

    Okay, so let’s call my primary instructor Amy. She and our supervisor–who we’ll call Bernadette–seem to be in disagreement about a few things. I’ve primarily been hearing Amy’s side of the story. Bernadette did come up to our classroom the other day to talk about how Amy and I are going to manage our files on the network. Amy wants to do it X way and Bernadette wants it to be done Y way. Both seemed adamant in their views, and Amy was getting a little frustrated. She’s been working at the center off-and-on for a number of years, so I can understand why she is set in her ways about things.

    I don’t know how well Amy and Bernadette get along in general, but I have a feeling the relationship is less than perfect. Not unbearable, but enough that it’s making me a little uncomfortable. I don’t know how Bernadette gets along with the other instructors either, but that’s not my concern at this point. While I’m working closely to Amy, I report directly to Bernadette.

    So, how the heck do I navigate this? Should I express my concern with Bernadette? I want to respect both hers and Amy’s viewpoints, but if I end up agreeing more with Bernadette, that’s going to impact my working relationship with Amy, which is otherwise starting off great.

  170. Kerry*

    So I have a rescheduled interview coming in next week. Originally, the applicant didn’t show up for the interview. Later, we found out her mother passed away unexpectedly that day.

    It’s about a month later now, and I wonder if I should bring it up to offer my condolences? It just seems such a tragic event that it would be weird if I didn’t acknowledge it.

    1. Bad Candidate*

      I’m not sure if others would answer the same way, but as someone who lost their mom, I wouldn’t bring it up. Right after it happened, I dreaded people bringing it up because it would upset me and make me think about it, and likely lead to me crying. I know people were trying to be kind, but I didn’t really like crying in front of people.

    2. MWKate*

      I think it would be perfectly fine to say something short and simple at the beginning. Like, I’m glad we were able to reschedule and wanted to offer my condolences on your loss. It probably shouldn’t be much more than that, but I do think it would be weird to just ignore the situation altogether.

      1. PollyQ*

        I agree that the exchange would be more natural at the beginning of the interview, but I wonder if it wouldn’t be kinder to the interviewee if it were raised at the end, so that any strong feelings that might come up wouldn’t bleed into the interview.

  171. Afraid this was going to happen and need advice*

    So I stared a new job Jan 3rd, the position has a 90 day probation period and during that time I am not allowed to use any PTO, my balance is displayed at 0 for this period and but I do accrue hours which will be displayed after the probation period. I suffer from Migraines and let my supervisor know this before I started (he also has them and seemed pretty understanding). The position is salaried and exempt.
    Last week I woke up with a horrible migraine (sound/light sensitive, vomiting, nausea the works, and probably the worst one I’ve had in several years). Just got my paycheck that covers last week and my salary was reduced due to the day I missed because of my migraine.
    I know that as an exempt employee I’m supposed to make the same each week and that my employer can have me take PTO to cover time I’m not in the office (I would have taken it as PTO if the company let me). According to another employee (in same position as me) when he asked what would happen if he as an exempt employee ran out of PTO (so had a zero balance) and took one day out of a five day week off he was told he would not be paid for those hours. When he pushed back on that not being legal he received the answer that since his salary stayed above the minimum to be exempt the employer can do this if he has no PTO to cover the time.
    It would seem that the employer can’t dock my pay during a five day week where I worked MWTF and was out Tuesday due to migraine when they say I’m exempt but I wonder if the probation period can change this?
    Anybody know if an employer can dock an exempt employee due to an internal policy that prevents access to PTO during a specified period.

    So going on the assumption that is not legal, I get all my documentation that I’m exempt and what my pay rate is together (I assume this includes the documentation of the 90 day probation period with no PTO) and I start where…HR would seem like the logical place so what I just say hey you shorted my pay this week according to law xyz you can’t so I expect the difference to be made up in my next pay check or I’ll file a wage complaint? When that doesn’t work where do I go?

    1. fposte*

      I’d want an actual lawyer like Princess Consuela Banana Hammock to weigh in, but that docking may be permissible; it’s permissible to dock an exempt employee “if the company maintains a plan that provides compensation for loss of salary caused by sickness and disability and the employee exhausted his or her “bank” of leave.” Certainly they seem federally correct on their answer to your co-worker’s question; my tentativeness is because 1) you may be in a state that affords more protection and 2) without seeing it in black and white, I don’t want to state that unearned vacation is the same as having exhausted earned vacation.

      1. fposte*

        Okay, I found a DOL fact sheet that seems to state what I suspected: it’s okay to dock exempt employees “for absences of one or more full days due to sickness or disability if the deduction is made in accordance with a bona fide plan, policy or practice of providing compensation for salary lost due to illness.” IOW, they can dock before you earned or after you burned.

      2. Afraid this was going to happen and need advice*

        When we asked at orientation we were told that we accrue but can’t access PTO but then that isn’t necessarily the official company legal language just the way it was explained.

        I’m in Virginia if that helps at all.

        1. fposte*

          I don’t think Virginia gives any additional protections. As far as I can tell, as long as they provide you with PTO at some point, not necessarily immediately, it’s legal for them to dock exempt employees who are out sick when they don’t have available PTO. Sorry.

    2. Nan*

      I’m in IL and our handbook says that exempt employees will be dock either a day or half day pay if we are absent without PTO to cover it. So may be it varies from state to state. I’ve never heard of it being done to anyone, though.

  172. justlittleoldme*

    How do you feel about candidates who say they cannot schedule interviews during the standard workday? I was recently interviewing for a mid-level position, and encountered several candidates who said they were only able to come in before 9 am or after 5:30 pm. Our interview process involves speaking to several people and typically takes 1.5-2 hours, so this doesn’t often mesh well with the working schedules of our current employees. I’ve also found that when I do schedule shorter interview rounds at 8:30 or 5:30, those candidates are much more likely to cancel and reschedule due to sudden work issues. At this point, if someone is not able to interview during our company’s standard open hours, I’m increasingly reluctant to schedule them.

    My personal opinion is that someone who is truly interested in a job will find a way to interview at some point during a traditional work day. However, some of my friends pointed out that not everyone is able to take time off during the day Thought I would get more opinions.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If they seem like they will be a good fit, then I’ll usually try to work them in at the beginning or end of the day. Instead of having them meet with multiple people on site, could they have a shorter meeting with one person and then, if you want to move forward, set up phone conversations with the others? Or do a phone interview first to find out if they really are a good candidate?

    2. Rebecca*

      Some people are trapped in jobs with no paid time off, or very little paid time off, with managers who are unreasonable and overbearing, making taking any time off during the work day very difficult. I’d try to give them the benefit of the doubt. You may be missing good applicants by excluding people who can’t escape during the work day.

    3. Temperance*

      I worked at a terrible admin job for a really long time, and I couldn’t get time off for interviews without my JerkBoss giving me the third degree. She knew I was interviewing and was trying to keep me from doing it.

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      Disagree. If a candidate can’t make time during the workday, I assume she is currently employed. I also guess that she’s not miserable at her job and/or is unwilling to shortchange the company that is currently paying her. There are only so many “appointments” you can have, especially if you’re interviewing at more than one company.

      I’ve asked for special interview times and gotten them, and I also know that when I am on the other side of the desk, I may have to come in early or stay later to meet someone. Otherwise I’m going to limit my candidate pool, probably more than I want to.

      Also, if your company ever reschedules interviews with a day’s notice or less because someone who is supposed to be doing the interviewing suddenly has something come up — that’s no different. The candidate could turn it around and say, “if they were really interested in me, they’d find a way to meet at our agreed-upon time.”

    5. Anxa*

      I think it’s reasonable to be applying to more than one position and still be very enthusiastic about the particular jobs.

      But those jobs are just maybes. I can totally understand being hesistant to jeopardize your current job for a chance at another. Also, while I’d be absolutely happy to lose a days pay for a new job, what happens when you took five days off and still have no new job? It’s a risky gamble.

      1. Intrepid*

        Yes, this. Chances are, your position is not the only thing I’m trying to juggle and/or sneak under the radar– I probably have a good deal of networking lunches, calls, and other interviews. In an open plan office, I need to be visibly gone for even a phone screen, and a 2 hour interview, plus half an hour travel time on either end? That’s half a day I need an excuse for. It’s risky, especially if I’m not super-excited about the potential position.

    6. CAA*

      I’ll arrange interviews at 7:00 AM for people who need early mornings. I have enough staff who are around that early to be able to accommodate them, and I don’t mind coming in early myself if needed. I don’t ask my staff to reschedule their lives for interviews, though I have one guy who enjoys it and volunteers to come in early if needed. One thing I do not do is abbreviate the interview process. To get a job here, you have to talk to me and at least two other people plus HR after a phone screen. It takes a couple of hours of in-person (or skype if you’re remote) time, and we could do it on multiple days, but you have to go through the whole process.

      I will say that I’m interviewing exempt professionals in a profession where people typically don’t have that much difficulty getting away during the day if needed. Similarly, if someone on my team needs a half-day for an appointment, it’s not a big deal, so I’m hiring into that same type of environment. When I was hiring a receptionist some years ago, it was a little different, but the interview process wasn’t as long either.

      I myself have been interviewed on a Saturday (at their request, not mine, since some of the people they wanted me to talk to were traveling on back-to-back work weeks), and I ended up taking that job.

    7. Zis*

      I’m currently job searching and I work about an hour away from home, trying to find a job closer to it. I’m lucky in that I tend to have one weekday off, typically Thursday, and I would ask to interview then. But if it’s not something a recruiter can accommodate, I wouldn’t know what to say. Maybe I could ask for some unusual time off, and think of an excuse, but if it’s just for one interview I would worry that I’d do it too much and my boss would pick up on it.

      If your interview technique doesn’t mesh well with your employees’ working schedule, is there a way to schedule them outside of normal working hours? Wouldn’t that lead to better results? I ask as someone totally ignorant of HR practices.

  173. Mimmy*

    Gahhh I just thought of a third question! (I warn you guys – this is my first job in ages, so it’s like I’m starting from scratch).

    Bernadette (supervisor in post upthread) also wants me to eventually start creating a resource library. I mentioned this to Amy because I assumed that she knew about it – the staff all meet on a regular basis, including a daily scheduling check-in, and monthly all-staff meetings. Well, Amy was not too happy about that! She wants the help because she’s the only instructor in this particular area, and she probably doesn’t want my time on any projects to take away from the help she needs.

    Probably should’ve kept my mouth shut -.-

  174. phedre*

    Anyone have any suggestions on how not to interrupt? I get really excited about projects or topics and can occasionally overly dominate discussions and interrupt. I don’t do it to be rude (though of course it is SUPER rude) or because I think other people don’t know what they’re talking about, but because I’m excited. I know it’s a bad trait and it’s something I’ve been working on for a while, but my boss recently (very kindly) brought it up, so clearly I’m not doing a good enough job of working on it. She said that I’m a stellar employee but to just be more aware of it. I don’t always notice I’m doing it at the time, but then later when I replay conversations I can see very clearly where I’ve gone wrong. Please help! It’s really embarrassing – I don’t want to be this person, and I know it will (if it hasn’t already) affect my professional and personal relationships.

    1. Sugar of lead*

      Make a deal with yourself before meetings: I am not going to talk unless it’s my turn. I’m going to listen to other people.
      Keep a pencil and paper next to you and if you absolutely feel the need to talk out of turn, write it down and say it later if there’s a chance.
      If you catch yourself talking over someone, interrupt yourself and say something like, “Sorry, you were saying?”
      I used to dominate a lot, and what fixed it was I went a couple of days without talking at all. It really changes your perspective. I’m not sure if you could do that at work, but maybe a few days of not speaking unless spoken to? It depends on your office culture.

      1. phedre*

        Thank you! I’m definitely going to write down thoughts and make a explicit decision before meetings to be quiet unless it’s time. I don’t think my office culture will tolerate not speaking unless spoken to, but I think I’ll try significantly reducing how much I talk for a week (so hard for me – I never met a silence I didn’t want to fill!).

    2. blondie*

      I do this too, and feel awful after I do it. The other person feels offended, and however good my point is, it is missed due to my rudeness. My strategy is to focus really hard on what the other person is saying, and mentally repeat the word “wait” to myself….sounds dumb but it keeps my mouth shut.

      1. phedre*

        You know, I never thought of it that way – that however good a point is, it’ll be missed due to my rudeness. Maybe thinking of it in terms of effectiveness will help my curb my mouth.

        I’m going to try to focus really hard on what other people are saying. I think sometimes I’m waiting for my next opening so I’m not really hearing fully what people are saying.

    3. KiteFlier*

      I do this too, I’ve recently realized it is part of my ADHD. I also really hate being interrupted, but I have to work at it. When someone else is talking I try to concentrate on watching them talk and taking it all in before responding. Sometimes I’ll tap my leg or the table while they are talking – when they stop, I stop, and then it’s my turn.

      1. phedre*

        Thanks! That’s a great idea – tap my leg until it’s my turn.

        I wondered in the past if ADHD had something to do with it. Maybe I will get a screening.

      2. phedre*

        Ok I took like 5 online screenings and I meet the criteria for ADHD. It makes a lot of sense to me when I go back and think about my life!

        I called my doctor and set up an appointment next week for a physical and a referral for ADHD screening (she wants to talk to me first and do some tests to rule out other explanations).

    4. paul*

      I was a chronic interrupter. I am continually getting better, have been for about 3-4 years now. I try to count to 3-5 after someone takes a breath/break before I start to talk to make sure I’m not just interjecting during a breath or something.

      As far as monopolizing conversations I still ahve a hard time balancing between that and simply not engaging.

      1. phedre*

        Thanks Paul! I’m going to try your counting technique because I’ve definitely jumped in when someone took a breath or paused but weren’t done with the conversation.

    5. Reba*

      I have read about a classroom management technique in which students who talked/asked questions too much more than others were given a set number of times they could weigh in per class meeting. The teacher keeps track by counting down in some fashion.

      Maybe you could set something similar for yourself? Less rigid, obviously, but if you have a goal of “I am only going to make X number of unsolicited comments in this session” maybe it would prompt you to slow down and think before “using up” one of your comments.

      I haven’t tried this extreme of an intervention on myself, admittedly, but I have been embarrassed enough by my interrupting at times to hopefully slow it down. It can be hard! Good luck, and I think it’s great that you are self-aware and tackling this.

      1. phedre*

        Thank you! This is a great suggestion! I’m going to use this in the next meeting. The challenge is setting the right limit ;-)

  175. Hate Waiting*

    Probably too late to get a response but since it just happened again … is there some way to politely ask the mail carrier to NOT hold the elevator while they drop stop off at each floor, without ticking them off so they lose or delay your mail?

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think you can’t have them wait for elevators on every floor without having your mail come later. How do you feel about stair workouts :-)?

      1. Afraid this was going to happen and need advice*

        I think Hate Writing means not that the mail carrier is waiting for the elevator but the mail carrier is making the elevator wait for her by sticking something in the door so it can’t go anywhere while she delivers mail to that floor.

        1. fposte*

          Right, I understood that. But if the mail carrier isn’t holding the elevator, that means she has to wait until the elevator comes back to that floor, for every floor in the building, which means it will take the mail longer to get to the recipients.

    2. Natalie*

      I mean, unless you scream at them do you really think they’ll start losing your mail? Most people don’t react that way to a pretty straightfoward request.

  176. Arduino*

    So what salary do you think justifies ungodly hours?

    I live in a low COL area and make 70k. It’s just enough to cover bills, save 4% towards retirement, afford a average house in an average neighborhood and be able to handle a flat tire but not an unexpecteded medical test.

    To me this is a poster child livable wage scenario and not a high wage 24 7 job. Alison talks a lot about it being important to pay for the high stress super overtime roles so I wonder where folks think that line lies.

    1. fposte*

      Depends what you mean by “ungodly” and “low COL,” and also what your local market is (which is probably tied to the answer to those earlier two things). $70k is more than a livable wage in a lot of LCOL areas, though.

      1. jamlady*

        Agreed. That’s a huge salary for my small town (in California, where taxes are pretty dang high and COL is still higher than average).

        1. Arduino*

          K. That’s why I tried to qualify. I consider it low COL but that is compared to New England and living abroad.

          So maybe a question for you would be – what lifestyle would you have to afford to assume 60+ hrs is the minimum and an acceptable ask?

          1. H.C.*

            Both New England and abroad are pretty broad areas, which a wide range of COL. For $70k to be just barely above living wage, I’d assume you’re living in a mid/high COL area.

            RE: your question for the ask, the simple answer would’ve been 50% more than what you’d ask if it was a standard 40 hour job, but given the quality of life factors I would even consider raising that to 75-100%.

          2. Bea W*

            Yeh, I live in a high COL area of New England. 70k does not justify crazy hours, but that’s also because 70k for someone in my job is already at the low end of the scale. That’s the other thing you have to consider, is the pay equivilent to being worth crazy hours compared to what you might otherwise make not working crazy hours? Many exempt people do work more than 40/week on occasion, but there are limits. If I’m making 70k doing 40-45 most weeks, I’m going to want a bump in salary in exchange for working chronically crazy hours.

    2. Not Karen*

      I think this is a personal decision. For me the salary would have to be upwards of 200k for anything more than 50, and I wouldn’t do something like 70-80 no matter the salary.

    3. Arduino*

      Ungodly = 60 is minimum expected hrs. E.g. An additional .5 of a position on top of yours or more.

      Also assume non emergency worker back office type roles. So no doctor police etc.

      I qualified what I can afford and how I classify it as low COL so not sure what other data to provide honestly…. I can afford my bills and my frugal lifestyle such as no smart phone no cable mid tier vehicle no vacations and an average home in an average neighborhood where I live.

      1. fposte*

        The other data would be how much you want to see your friends and family, how long you’d be doing it, how much you enjoy it, how much debt you have, how much you want to have in retirement, when you want to retire, whether you could work from home, how your health is, etc., etc., etc. This is not a simple formula question.

        (And I already work that for much of the year; it’s not that uncommon.)

      2. Bea W*

        Yeh…60 minimum…Nope, not if I can go somewhere else and work 40-50 hours for the same pay. If this is a substantial increase that compensates for the crazy, that’s different. Then what you have to ask yourself is it is worth it to you personally? It sounds like you don’t need the cash for COL. So that leaves the personal trade off. Working 60+ hours/week every week is potentially exhausting and won’t leave you with much personal time. Personally, I’d decline unless I was absolutely desperate for the money. My quality of life would decline so much I would not be able to enjoy it. Not worth it for any amount.

    4. Anxa*

      I don’t think I’d want to work for more than 65+ a week unless I was making at least 35K in my HCOL and probably 28K in my LCOL. If I had children I’d imagine it would go up even higher.

      But there are a lot of other factors, too. Like, if I could the work i do know for 40hrs a week plus 25 hours a week with a different responsibility, but at the same place (so no commute juggling), that would be way preferable to doing just 40 hours at some of the past jobs I’ve had. If I was in a job I hated or one where I felt like I was walking on eggshells, then I’d guess probably about 5oK. For me, though, it’s less about how many hours I’m working and more about what am I putting up with at work.

      Also, if the job came with benefits that could be a game changer.

  177. AnonEMoose*

    Impromptu survey. If you are looking for information at work, do you:

    a) look for notes in the system or other resources first,
    b) ask a coworker without trying to resolve it yourself

    I’m definitely an option a person – I try only to get a coworker involved if I genuinely can’t find the answer on my own. And it makes me kind of nuts when someone interrupts my work to ask me a question to which I have already provided the answer numerous times, in various ways. Or when I know, perfectly well, that the answer is RIGHT THERE IN THE SYSTEM IF THEY COULD BE BOTHERED TO LOOK.

    So, those of you who default to asking first…what’s your thought process? I really would like to try to understand. (Fortunately, I do have my supervisor’s permission to ask them “Did you check X? No? Please do that, and then come find/email me if you need clarification.”)

    Some of them get a little huffy when I do that…but I’m thinking that’s on them. But what I’m attempting to do is make asking me the “less easy” option…because I realize that, to them, it’s only one question, and they don’t realize that I’ve already been interrupted 8 times today…3 of them with the exact same question (exaggerating…but not by much). And it’s not that I want to discourage them from asking me if they really do need something – but to me, asking me a question to which they could easily find the answer in 30 seconds doesn’t count as “needing something.” I’d really like them to be more respectful of my time when they know it’s a busy time.

    1. Manders*

      I would prefer option A, but our office server is such a mess that I’ve done things like accidentally used the wrong document because it was stored in a more logical place. So usually I try to search first, then email my boss and say, “I found this file in this folder, is that what I’m supposed to be using?”

      1. paul*

        *twitch*

        Oh god our digital files are a mess. On slow Fridays I’ve been known to tackle them but it is pure hell getting the OK to delete or reorganize things. And I’m talking crap like applications submitted 5 or 6 years ago for people tht weren’t hired. Scanned thank you note checklist from 2007. Sitreps from as far back as 08 for various weather events.

        My guess it’s an overreaction to a major computer crash that happened before I started (that taught our then CEO the value of backups).

    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      Option B. Generally I’m asking down the ladder, not up. It’s simply faster to ask someone who knows the answer than to try to search for things myself.

      1. AnonEMoose*

        I think it’s different when it’s a “down the ladder” situation. If it’s my boss who is asking, I’ll tell him the answer (even when I’ve told him the answer previously), because he’s the boss and it’s part of my job to track this stuff for him.

        But when it’s a peer, I think there’s more room for gentle pushback when someone is asking about things they should be able to find, or should be keeping track of, themselves.

    3. Always Anon*

      I’m an option a type myself, but have worked with some option b people. My opinion is that some people choose option b because it’s easier for them or because they don’t trust themselves and want someone to take the blame if they do something wrong (“AnonEMoose told me it was X”).

      I think you’re on the right track to tell people where the information can be located and let them know to check back with you if they still have questions after reviewing the information themselves. Your time is valuable and these people need to be trained to be self-sufficient where possible. What if you weren’t there to ask – how would they find the information?

    4. Delyssia*

      I am absolutely an option A person. Actually asking someone is more or less my last resort (I try to avoid wasting too much time searching on my own, but I don’t always succeed at that).

      However, I think some people are just wired differently on this one. I used to work with someone who is a competent, resourceful professional, and also a hardwired asker. One day, we were going to lunch together, and Grace wanted to stop at the running store down the street where she’d gotten a pair of shoes previously to ask if they could look up what shoes she had (as in, style name or other identifier). They couldn’t, but suggested that if she looked in the shoe, typically there’s a label that would include that info. That would 100%, without a doubt, have been the first thing I tried. It had honestly never occurred to Grace.

      So I think some people are just wired differently.

      1. AnonEMoose*

        I wonder if part of it is that some people just like the opportunity for interaction, even over something relatively minor. Whereas, introverted me is going “I don’t have to talk to someone to find this out? SCORE!!”

        1. Delyssia*

          Grace is strongly extroverted while I am strongly introverted. I decided against going into that in my initial comment, but I tend to think it plays in at least somewhat.

    5. Intrepid*

      I”ll spend up to about half an hour on option A, and then switch to option B.

      But oh man, I worked with a hardcore B who would email me AGHAST that there was no movement on some issue… which had been decided weeks ago, by email. There was one glorious day where I was on a plane and so out of pocket for about 2 hours. I got 2-3″Where is the info?!?!?!” emails, and then one “oh, found it in my inbox.” That last one was so beautiful (but ultimately taught her nothing).

    6. Bea W*

      Option a, because I like to try to figure it out myself. Some of it is because I don’t want to bother people, but 98% of it is more the challenge of finding it myself.

      I only very rarely opt for option b, and that is basically when I’m either in a rush and/or I don’t actually know where to look. Sometimes my question is “Where can I find information on our previous spout design plans?” and the only answer I’m looking for is “On the S: drive under Design plans/spouts”.

    7. tigerStripes*

      I use option a except when I have been using option a for just about everything all day, and I’m frazzled and just need a quick answer for once.

  178. Ann O'Nemity*

    How do you signify an internal promotion on your resume when job titles don’t necessarily make it obvious?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’d probably do it in the cover letter and/or interview instead of the résumé.

    2. Tableau Wizard*

      I assume the job title changed? That should signify that your role changed, and perhaps you can indicate somehow what responsibilities were added…

    3. CAA*

      Company Name City, State
      May 2015 to December 2016 — Teapot Designer I
      January 2017 to Present — Administrative Teapot Expert (promoted from Teapot Designer I)
      – bullet list emphasizing most advanced accomplishments first
      – xxx
      – xxx

  179. MWKate*

    This is late and probably buried but I needed to vent/complain. I completely understand that often not getting a position is not a poor reflection on you, etc. However…I drove out to visit a grad school program earlier this month. Interviewed for 7 different Graduate Assistantship positions…and it’s not looking like I got any of them. Having a GAship is a requirement of the program, so until I find one I can’t be admitted.

    The head of the program told me I have a better educational background and GPA than most of the other applicants, and a number of unique experiences (I’m about 10 years out of undergrad and older than all the other applicants) – but I’m still here waiting. More opportunities may open up, but it’s incredibly demoralizing.

    1. Arduino*

      That sucks.

      I once had a lab promise to accept me, was clearly a favorite for a full ride fellowship and got along really well with all the other students in the lab.

      Days before the fellowship app was due I got a surprise call that the lab leader had not sent in her promise to accept note.

      I figured it was a simple mistake so I called her. Nothing. Emailed her. Nothing. Eventually called other lab members and they were shocked to hear about the oversight and promised to check with lab lead for me. Got an email that night 12 hrs before deadline that read:

      “I have decided to sponser another candidate. On a personal note I feel it will be good for you to experience failure”

      So yeah grad school can be weird.

      2. Caro in the UK*

        Oh my word, that’s a mindbogglingly horrible thing to do (and say) to someone. I’m so sorry that happened to you.

    2. Sled dog mama*

      That sucks and is totally backward from how my program did it GA was also required but if you were accepted in to the program you automatically had the GA position the GA supervisors just had to pick from who the department admitted.
      It seems kind of strange that the GA supervisors would essentially get to decide who the department admits.

      1. MWKate*

        That’s a good way of looking at it – it’s not even the head of the program that’s making the ultimate determination on admittance. So frustrating!

  180. ShipLeigh*

    A few weeks ago, I left my purse behind at the grocery store. Thinking it was gone forever, I ran home to start canceling the bank and credit cards. As I was doing so, the doorbell rings and there was a Good Samaritan on my doorstep with my bag, everything intact. I tried to give him some cash for his trouble but he flatly refused. The only thing he wanted was to give me a copy of his resume as he was job hunting and looking with not much luck. He had seen my business cards in my wallet with my company and title while looking for my address to drop off the bag.

    I got his resume and I think he may be suited for an entry-level job at best, but I’m going to be at a loss to explain the referral. While I would like to help him any way I can, I know I’m going to get weird looks at work if I recommend someone who I only know as a guy who lives in my town who returned my purse.

    I didn’t make any concrete promises, but I don’t want to let this good deed go unnoticed. Any thoughts on how to handle this?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      I see how it feels weird. I’d say this might be the case for a linked in post. That way you could share the whole story contact information but not technically be a referral since all you can speak to is his character…which is clearly stellar.

    2. Nanc*

      Boy this is tough. Can you write him a personal note? Thank him for returning your purse, commiserating that job hunting is tough, let him know that while your company doesn’t take cold resumes, here’s the direct link to the job site. Offer him any tips you might know about what makes your company think someone is hire-able. Point him towards community resources. Point him towards this site.

      Honestly, just a personal note acknowledging what a good person he was for his actions and wishing him good luck may be a positive boost for himself. If you don’t think it’s weird, you could enclose a $20 Starbucks/coffee card and say you want him to treat himself while he works hard to find a job.

    3. Leatherwings*

      Can you just pass along the resume without explaining the whole thing? “Like, I spoke with a person who was job hunting and here’s their resume to review for X job. I can’t speak to the strength of this person as a candidate but wanted to pass the resume along in case”

    4. Cochrane*

      A couple of things jump out at me here. I have a minor quibble over the label of “good samaritan” for this situation; while he refused the money, he did ask for something in return for this good deed. I’m not much of a theologian but I thought an act had to be selfless, done for the sake of doing the right thing, to be worthy of the title. Not to mention that he put you in a tough spot. If you recommend this guy for a job, you either have to look like a nut to your boss (“no boss, he’s not my friend, colleague, classmate, etc, whose work I can vouch for, he’s just a guy who returned my bag I left at the supermarket!”) or be less than honest about how you know him. If you don’t do anything to help him, you’ll feel guilty about it. Even if this is not what he’s intended by doing this, he’s put you in a no-win situation.

      I’d write a nice letter to his current employer and hope that does something for him. Anything else is assuming too much about someone whos work you know little or nothing about.

      1. copy run start*

        Yeah, not quite a full good samaritan, though I understand why he might have done it. I guess you could point him to open positions and give him some advice about what the company looks for, but I wouldn’t recommend him. If someone asks, say you met when he returned your purse.

        I once left my checkbook somewhere on my college campus. It was returned to my bank with a sticky note along the lines of, “I didn’t take your money you owe me” and a phone number. I did not call.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think it’s ok to pass along a resume of someone you don’t really know. “I met this young man recently and he struck me as intelligent and hard-working. While I can’t speak to his work experience, I’d like to pass his resume along,” full stop.

      Or, if you’re feeling up to it/comfortable, call him up, take him for a coffee, and learn more about him and allow him to ask you questions about your company or your field. Teach him about networking. He seems to have drive and he sounds resourceful, so if it’s ok with you, I think it might be nice to give him an informational interview.

    6. ..Kat..*

      I would just explain the situation. This person showed a lot of integrity in this situation. And then explain the situation.

      By the way, this obviously worked out well for you, but (you knew there was going to be a but here, didn’t you). Just because someone returns your purse with everything in it, doesn’t mean they haven’t written down also your credit card, bank, etc information. It is still a good idea to act as if your purse had not been returned – cancel those cards, etc. Sad voice of experience.

    7. Bea W*

      Since you have a resume, you have his contact info. If you see a job that might suit him, contact him and let him know how to apply.

  181. Long Time Reader First Time Commenter*

    I just want to share an outrageous job posting that I came across. Spoiler alert: before you get the job, you’ll be subject to writing 1 piece of content and creating 2 videos (and more). It’s a long job description too, but it’s actually a fun read if you don’t take it too seriously. Enjoy! https://www.mimicmethod.com/content-manager/

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      And a salary of $2,000 per month (sounds low?) in your trial period.

      The person spec includes:
      “I must constantly grow as a person, otherwise I am dying.”
      “Before I die, I must travel the world and know its people as much as I can.”

      Also, it’s a plus if you can sing.

      1. Long Time Reader First Time Commenter*

        Yes, $2,000 per month during your trial period is definitely low for this position (the average is around $60,000 a year in Canada according to PayScale). If you factor in the opportunity cost, the quality of the company and how high maintenance your boss would be…

        I’m so surprised to see so many people expressing their enthusiasm in the comments section of this job posting. *mind blown*

    3. Fushi*

      Oh my word. I’m a translator and I’m cringing so hard at “unblock your hearing” and “unblock your pronunciation” as language-learning goals.

  182. Accidental Analyst*

    Ok talk me out of being stupid.

    I’m so burnt out. I can get through 1-4 hours at work before I really start to fizzle. I’ve left early on a number of days but that’s not helping. My contract’s up in June and I should be actively looking for a new one. The thing is I’m not a strong candidate so I can’t negotiate for a delayed start (to have a break) or get a couple of weeks off wishin a few months of starting. I also think that my current level of burnout would make it hard to get any offers let alone succeed in a new position.

    I’m seriously considering taking a couple of months off to recover, learn new work skills and improve my self confidence. But I’m aware that deliberately becoming unemployed could be a bad idea made from an emotionally unsound position. I could just be trading work stress with stress of not having/being able to find a new job.

    Financially I could afford to be off for a year (but that would remove all the extra I’ve paid off on the mortgage). Health insurance isn’t an issue as there’s universal coverage.

    So am I being stupid for seriously considering this? What would you do in a similar position?

    1. Terra Firma*

      Is there anything you can do in the short term to make you a stronger candidate that CAN negotiate for a delayed start?

      1. Accidental Analyst*

        I don’t think so. Most people in my sort of role have more training, technical skills, relevant work experience etc. It feels like it would take years to catch up. I fell into this role by accident. Any training is what I’ve taught myself (no training budget). And because I’ve been overworked for years I haven’t had the energy/motivation to do much formal or specific training outside of work.

        The things I have going for me (and these aren’t all positive) – I can pick up systems and processes quickly, I’m loyal to the extent of putting the company ahead of myself (to the point it can get taken advantage of), I’m helpful to a fault, and I’m so used to working in dysfunctional places that I’m pretty good about rolling with the punches.

    2. Stella'sMom*

      Hello, Accidental Analyst…. burnout is a real thing. I have seen it in a few colleagues in recent years, and it is better to nip it in the bud, before you get really sick. One person I worked with ended up in the hospital and was off for six months because of burnout. I’ve taken time off before, between gigs, and used that time to rest as well as work on improving my skills or learning something new. If you can take a few weeks off, I’d think it would be better for you overall. (Taking into account that I work outside the USA, in a country that has good but not stellar rights for workers, and a health care system that is pretty great and includes psychological help for things like this).

      1. Accidental Analyst*

        Thanks for your support.

        It’s scary considering a period of unemployment when I’m very security conscious/risk adverse. I keep telling myself that I can always end up trying for an entry or low level job in the meantime.

        I think I need to work on a solid plan. Eg finish by x, rest till y, start ups killing and searching by z.

    3. Reba*

      Hey Accidental Analyst, I can’t tell you from here what to do about your job situation, but I do think that taking care of your mental and physical health is worth investing in–it’s hugely important, and I’d urge you to do it. The term self-care is getting a little overused these days, but it’s a real thing.

      You’re wise to be thinking ahead about how to describe such a break to future potential employers, and *to yourself* to make sense of your feelings and progress as you go through whatever amount of time you set aside. Maybe the practice of setting intentions (I got this from yoga class) could help you in your framing, along the lines of “I am taking this time for myself so that I can work better later/find a better job/gain X new skill.”

      I think it depends on your field, and on the individuals you eventually interview with, how a break looks to people on the hiring side. My spouse (in a creative-technical field) has been taking time away to travel with me while I do academic research, and although he’s a bit anxious about getting back into work he knows a number of people who have taken time away, so that doesn’t seem likely to raise any questions in itself. But long vacations or personal project time may not be the norm in your field. I always admire people who say “and then I took 3 months away to follow my passion for knitting or whatever.”

      Again, my spouse’s situation is not the same as yours, but I would say that it’s ultimately been instructive and beneficial for him mentally to be away from work for a while–though it has also been a period marked at times by anxiety and stress about getting back to work, and about self-worth in the absence of employment. So I would suggest that as you plan your time away you build in things that will help you shore up your confidence, as well as time for getting the rest you need. Good luck!

      1. Reba*

        coming back to add, therapy! Therapy. You want to build up some emotional skills and reserves so that hopefully you don’t get into this burnout stage again.

  183. Terra Firma*

    We’ve recently had changes in our HR team (gone from a single resource who handled everything, to using shared, specialized resources from across other parts of of our very large organizations.) As a result, we now have an internal recruiter we work with directly who does all of the resume and phone screens, and sets up interviews with me and my colleagues. (I’m technically the hiring manager because I made the case for the new position, but will be this new hire’s grandboss).

    My team has had several open positions, and I (along with one of the people who reports to me) have interviewed several awesome candidates. We went with one particular candidate, but a second person was very close, and I recommended to our internal recruiter that she should be considered for other open roles in the company and that other hiring managers (who do the same thing as me, just for different sets of clients) should get the chance to meet with her.

    This candidate just followed up with me. (In a totally appropriate and reasonable way), to update me on her availability (she’s moving to the area), and let me know that’s she’s still enthusiastic about learning more about other open positions. She hadn’t heard for our internal recruiter in several weeks and wanted to know if there was anything else we might need for her to be a candidate for other open positions (since she applied to mine, not all of the other open ones).

    I know that we’ve been interviewing for these positions, and one of my fellow hiring managers said that this recruiter told him that we had no more great candidates in the pipeline. I feel bad that this great candidate has been getting radio silence and not been submitted for these other roles as I recommended she be.

    I’ve reiterated with the recruiter that this candidate is still available and would potentially be a good fit for other positions I know are currently open. I connected back with the candidate and gave her an update that I’ve re-recommended her for open positions, but my positions are now filled for the time being. Is there anything else I can do to be fair to the candidate?

    As context: The internal recruiter seems to be fairly longstanding, and senior. I work directly with her boss, the head of HR for our region on other HR projects. I am also quite senior (I report to the CEO and am on the senior management team).

    TL;DR: How do you set up expectations with an internal recruiter, and manage candidates in the most fair way when that doesn’t appear to be happening?

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      I would ask very directly why the recruiter chose not to follow up with the person – did they forget or is there a reason?

  184. MsChanandlerBong*

    I never realized how difficult it is to get people to follow instructions! My company hires freelance writers regularly. We ask them to complete a test assignment that has very specific requirements (double spacing, font, max word count, etc.). It’s a test of their ability to meet the client’s requirements as much as it is a writing assessment. Out of the 30 applications I reviewed today, I rejected 14 of them outright for failure to follow the instructions.

    1. Hoorah*

      I’m not surprised. It amazes me how so many people fail to follow even basic instructions. I once applied for a job for which I was under qualified. But the employer called me anyway simply because my resume was the only one without typos.

      1. Dizzy Steinway*

        I once got cold called about a freelance editor role and they mentioned that my website (back when I had one/was freelance) was the only one they’d seen without typos. I can’t even.

    2. Dizzy Steinway*

      Nope, not surprising sadly. If more than half passed that’s actually quite high!

  185. Like my boss*

    Is there anything I can do to help out my boss who is completely burnt out by her job? There are structural issues where she is really doing two jobs and as a result doesn’t have the time to really do either one exceedingly well. One of those jobs is managing my team. I have a great relationship with her, want her to stay at the company, and genuinely want to help her. I’ve asked explicitly, “What can I do to help you with being burned out, is there anything you can pass off to me or others that would make your life easier?” but response is that there’s nothing I can do and that it’s structural issues above her. She’s right, but I feel like she might leave the company because I don’t necessarily see those getting fixed any time soon, in fact I could see them getting worse. This would make me want to leave as well since I know she shields our team from a lot of issues that exist above her. Is there some way I can advocate for her better? Her being burned out hasn’t really effected my work, although sometimes I do have to be smart about how I get her to focus on something when I need her help.

    1. fposte*

      I think this one is out of your control. I’m sure she appreciates knowing that you support her and want her to stay, but it’s not likely the kind of change that’s needed would be influenced by your involvement. I know it’s hard when you can see a ripple effect coming!

  186. Responsible party*

    Suppose it’s OK to use “ab nihilo” on a resume? As in “created process X ab nihilo” where process X is something everyone but your company has been doing for two decades? I don’t know how else to phrase it concisely and with minimal negative connotations.

    Though frankly the latter is a part of the problem with much of my resume, given the dysfunction that surrounded me.

    3. Emi.*

      I wouldn’t, because I associate that phrase strongly with divine creation of literally everything out of literally nothing, but if everyone else in your industry has already been doing this, you presumably had some sort of model. I think you should go with TotesMaGoats’s wording instead–it’s more normal and more clear. Also, not everyone will know what it means, and IME some people who don’t know Latin get really pissy when other people use it.

    5. Chaordic One*

      Unless you’re applying for a job as latin translator or some academic job, don’t use that phrase. Most people won’t know what you’re talking about and you risk being seen as pretentious.

      The suggestions by TotesMaGoats and PollyQ are both much better.

  187. whichsister*

    Can some point me to where the information on the “rules” for exempt employees are? This has come up a few times, I am looking specifically for They can only dock my pay if I miss a full day with no pto to cover it, but if I work even part of the day they can’t dock it or something like that.

    As you can see I am fuzzy on these guidelines and I would love to find a resource.

    1. fposte*

      There isn’t anything like that, unfortunately; you really need to ask a specific and state-identified question. “Exempt” means that the FLSA doesn’t cover you, so you could start by reading the FLSA. Then there are a lot of opinions and rulings and guidance on when the FLSA was breached and when it wasn’t.

      If you’re looking just for the pay docking, a search for “permissible pay docking exempt” should get you to some decent results; there’s a DOL guidance sheet that I’ll link to in a follow up.

  188. Tableau Wizard*

    Ahh, this transition is killing me. My last day at current job is next Wed and somehow my to-do list keeps growing. I gave 3 weeks notice so that I could avoid this stress, but my boss sat on the information for a week before FINALLY telling grandboss so we could tell anyone else in the organization.
    I’m terrible at saying know and I’m too conscientious to let balls drop, so I’m seriously trying to convince myself not to work all weekend to wrap everything up. AHHH

    1. Gracie*

      I feel your pain. I gave mine 8 weeks notice so I could train my replacement. They told me I’d be getting a temp to train last week (5) and here week 3 is about to start and still no temp. I’m trying to straighten up my tangles before I go but it’s like really? Literally no one knows what I do. Management has some vague notion but no clear idea lol. Only three weeks left though. Yay

    2. ..Kat..*

      DON’T work all weekend. Seriously. You are leaving. They don’t get to force you to work insane hours (unless you let them). Just give your boss a heads up that in the time left you can do x and y, but not z. Be firm.

    3. Responsible party*

      When I left my first job after five years, I gave four weeks notice so they could select a replacement, I could train them, etc. Nothing at all like that happened–they didn’t select a replacement until several months after I left. It was four weeks of immense awkwardness, when I wasn’t invisible/irrelevant to everybody.

      Never again.

  189. Jillociraptor*

    I work at a university. A parent who is helicoptering their kid on an issue of their own making called my office today and implied that they plan to come to campus to address this issue in person. I’ve alerted the relevant folks (this is a known person of concern so fortunately/unfortunately we have a whole protocol for dealing with them) and my building has security, but I’m all alone in my office for the next few workdays and feeling a little exposed…

    Any advice for balancing vigilance and calm?

    1. Sled dog mama*

      No good advice but I totally sympathize. A few years ago I was teaching an undergraduate lab class that had pretty strict grading criteria (like you miss one lab your grade automatically dropped one letter you miss two you fail). The department maintained these standards for all undergraduate labs. The class met six times over the semester (there were two sessions at the same time and they met alternating weeks)
      I had a student in my A section who missed one lab, fine, he missed the final class meeting which was the exam on what they were supposed to have learned in the previous five labs, so I entered a fail. Eight days later (so the day after the B section had taken their exam) the student emails me to say he forgot about the lab meeting and wanted to see if he could make up the exam. I told him nope, he told me how unfair he thought my grading policy was. I was talking to our lab supervisor the first day of the next semester and found out the student had gone to him after I refused to raise his grade from failing to passing. Lab supervisor had apparently been willing to raise his grade from F to D-, that wasn’t good enough for Mama who called lab supervisor and then came in to see him demanding that he son’s grade be raised to a C. It turns out that if the kid didn’t make at least a C in the lab he would be kicked out of his program. Lab supervisor was not impressed, lowered the grade back to F and make kid retake the class.
      Imagine my delight when later that week I arrived in lab to discover that I had this kid again, he passed that lab and the second level with me the next fall.
      So sorry, no good advice beyond talk to your supervisor or the next person up the chain of authority and make sure they are on board and you aren’t alone

    2. ..Kat..*

      Alert campus security and ask for advice. Be specific – you are alone in the building for the next couple of days and this problem person may show up. What do they recommend you do? Good campus security would prefer to help you prevent an incident as opposed to them having to respond to an incident.

      Since you will be alone, can the building be locked down? Can you work from home?

  190. Desi*

    I think I was roofied at a company party. We had a big three day-two night retreat about a month ago, where we have seminars and product training sessions during the day, sales awards, and then we had dinner and a party in the evening on the last night. We all each had a roommate for the event too, and luckily I got paired up with a girl I’m good “works friends” with (for reference I am also a female). We are a subsidiary of a larger, multinational company but we are pretty autonomous is how we run our business. This retreat took place with another sister subsidiary and its salesforce, so there were A LOT of people. At our big evening party, I was mingling with a few of the people from our sister company, and I had a few glasses of wine. I know my limit though, and did not have more than three over the course of a few hours and also ate dinner. The people from the other company were partying hard, even to the point where the dancing was very raunchy, and the president of their company was not too pleased and said it’d be addressed upon returning. Anyway, the people I was hanging out with were a few men, and they kept encouraging me to do shots with them, which I declined. I went off after a bit to chat with one of our managers, and I started to feel funny, I went to the restroom. I proceeded to sit down on the floor of the handicapped stall and the room is spinning. I don’t think I was there for more than 15 minutes when my roommate came and got me and sent me with another one of our friends back to the room. I was walking okay and ducked out quietly and had a good companion to help me in case. I get to the room and pass out. I woke up needing to throw up, but I could not feel my legs and ended up vomiting in bed. I was a DISASTER. I was mortified. It wasn’t a big mess, so I don’t know if my roommate saw, but still absolutely humiliating. I could not move my body though. It was the strangest thing I’ve ever felt. I felt awful the entire next day and almost did not go to the awards because I just felt woozy and had a massive headache. I’ve only been drunk a handful of times in my life (I’m in my late twenties) but I had certainly had plenty of drinks to get to that point, and I’m not so irresponsible to get trashed on purpose at a work function. My boss was looking for me later that night because they wanted to keep partying, and my coworkers all covered for me and said I must’ve eaten something that didn’t agree with me and had to leave.

    My boss had heard I had “A LOT of fun” at the party, but he thought it was funny. I don’t know if he knows the full extent of it, nor do I know if he will believe me if I ever told him. I had only started there in November, so he still doesn’t know me too well yet. Despite that this has blown over, I’m still reeling from the embarrassment and am mad that this happened. My sister and another coworker I recently visited with thinks I could’ve been drugged. What are your thoughts? Would you have said something to someone if you were me or just let it go and hope it fades into oblivion? I don’t want the next kick off retreat to happen and people think I’m going to get wasted or something

    1. Leatherwings*

      It’s obviously hard to say definitively, but this really sounds like how a roofie affects you. I was roofied once and had the exact same thing – I’d only had two drinks and literally couldn’t move my body out of bed.

      I’d say something to your boss for sure, not only so that he knows you didn’t get trashed after being at the company for four months, but also so he can alert someone that different safety measures need to be taken with the drinks.

    2. LK*

      This is a tough situation. The decision between bringing it up (so far after the date, I assume?) and risking being called out as a liar (since there is no possible evidence this late in the game I assume?)……. verses just sitting quietly as this happens (*inner feminist growls*) and could happen again….

      I don’t have advice, just sympathy and a “eff this s***” rant that hopefully makes things a little less crappy for you.

      FWIW it sounds like you were drugged. Maybe not roofies. Definitely something. Maybe it was a raver type drug and they thought they could make the night more “fun” (you’re talking about those raunchy dancers and people letting a bit “too” loose at the party – maybe that was going around) by dropping some MDMA or E in your drink…… I was out with my good friend in my early 20s and someone dropped E in her drink and she flipped out because she didn’t know what was happening. I took care of her and she got home safe and it was okay…. but that does happen as crappy as it is. Maybe this happened and you had an allergic or adverse reaction to it.

      Either way. best case scenario someone just wanted you to party harder. Worst case scenario you could’ve been sexually assaulted or worse. Either way, someone f***ed with your beverage.

      If you go to more work retreats I would stay sober and/or drink out of a bottle ONLY with your thumb over the top hole whenever you’re not actively consuming it. I’ve done this before and it generally works if you like beer or coolers.

      There are coasters that can detect drugs in drinks. Some bars have them. Maybe there’s a way to suggest having them at the next work event that is appropriate in your work environment.

      1. Gadfly*

        The problem with the coasters and nail polish and all those other tests is right now they have a lot of false positives and negatives, and the drugs keep changing :/

    3. RVA Cat*

      Definitely tell your boss. I would also tell HR just to have it on record that this happened, as I’m certain they were drugging other people and there could already be an investigation.

    4. burnout no more*

      I think you have to say something. You don’t know if others have reported similar circumstances, you may not be the only one. It may help to put it this way, “I haven’t said anything because I was embarrassed, but the more I think about it, the more I believe that it is possible I was drugged. I know my limits, I am not a big drinker anyway and there is no way I consumed enough to be that sick.” etc. etc.

      Put it on record.

      1. LCL*

        Agree. Enough time has passed, it will be hard to prove anything, but someone needs to know. The men at the party will blame the servers, of course. Your boss went looking for you to keep partying? Forget going to the company, start with contacting the venue. And maybe the cops.

    5. Emi.*

      I agree that you should say something! They need to know that someone is doing this at work parties, so they can get rid of that person. If the roofie-er is still on the loose, he’s not going to fade into oblivion. He’s going to keep going.

      It’s a good idea to preface it with something like “I didn’t say anything until now because I wasn’t sure how to bring it up” or whatever’s most accurate, so it’s less out-of-the-blue. Also, I think you should make it clear you don’t just think you were drugged because “well, *I* couldn’t have been so drunk.” You in fact did not drink enough *that night* to have a reaction like that, and your symptoms match the symptoms of getting roofied.

      I’m sorry this happened to you, and I’m glad you’re OK.

    6. DevAssist*

      Oh Sh*t…

      That does sound like someone messed with your drink. Please consider talking to HR. This is so scary and I’m very glad that you are okay. I’m not sure how your company’s HR would react to hearing what happened, but you shouldn’t just let it go. Again, yikes. I’m so sorry.

      1. Gadfly*

        Even if all you can say is “I’ve been thinking about it since it happened and I have come to the conclusion that I believe my drink may have been tampered with. I know that without proof and at this late, there isn’t much we can do about that, but i am concerned about future events.”

    7. ..Kat..*

      You were roofied. This is a crime. You are the victim. Someone at this company party tried to cause you serious harm. In all likelihood, their plans for you were thwarted- nobody just roofies someone. Generally, the end plan is rape or other serious crime. The fact that this happened at a company event should have your company very concerned.

      You have some options. Please seriously consider reporting this to the police and HR. If your HR is suboptimal, having filed a police report can get them to take you seriously. Then your boss needs to know that you were the victim of a serious crime and he needs to stop the stupid comments. I know at this point the police probably can’t find the culprit. Honestly, even the morning after being roofied, there is little to no evidence. This is because the drug disappears so fast from the body. I urge you to stand up and fight for yourself.

      Please be honest with the people who helped you. Tell them you were roofied. Thank them for assisting you and keeping you from further harm.

      Be good to yourself.

  191. Barkis*

    What do you do when, after working for over 10 years, you have almost no professional references?

    I have not had the best of luck with my past bosses. Of my last eight bosses, 3 have been fired, 1 fled the country, 2 have been laid off, 1 quit (I think?) and only 1 is still employed. For those seven, I have no idea where most of them have ended up or what they are doing now. My second to last boss (“Jamie”) was actually a friend before they were promoted to be my boss. I ended up leaving that position for another (Jamie was aware and had been helping my search). After I put in my two weeks notice, that was the last time Jamie spoke to me. They “Worked from home” my last two weeks, but were unavailable to answer any questions I had. Oh, and refused to tell or let me tell anyone that I was leaving. My last day I filled out my exit interview form myself (the manager is supposed to fill it out), turned in my computer at the front desk and left. After that, I tried to contact Jamie a couple of times, just to reconnect over coffee or something. I never heard anything back.

    I just lost my job (a mass lay-off) and am searching again. But I have encountered a couple of jobs that required entering at least 5 references just to apply. I’m somewhat new to the area and don’t have a lot of new contacts here and I have lost touch with my old contacts. I’m at a bit of a loss as what to do.

    1. H.C.*

      If direct managers are unavailable, you can also try:

      – grand bosses
      – indirect supervisors
      – project leads
      – clients/customers
      – co-workers
      – your direct reports, if you’re a supervisor

      Of course, it’d be weird for a reference sheet to have no direct managers, so I’d try to reach out to Jamie again, as well as the supervisor for your recently laid-off job, to explain your situation and hope that they can serve as references for future jobs you apply to.

      Good luck.

    2. CAA*

      Of my last eight bosses, 3 have been fired, 1 fled the country, 2 have been laid off, 1 quit (I think?) and only 1 is still employed. For those seven, I have no idea where most of them have ended up or what they are doing now.

      In addition to H.C’s suggestions, which are all good, I’d say to find some of these 7 people. I bet most of them are on LinkedIn. Nothing you wrote here would disqualify any of them from being a reference for you.

      Your references do not need to still be employed at the company where you worked with them. It doesn’t matter if they left because they were fired or laid off or quit, or if they’re in another country now. Look for them online, reconnect, and then ask them if they’ll act as references. It is not at all unusual for managers to get reference requests from people they haven’t spoken to in a few years.

  192. Anon for this*

    I’m really struggling with a new job responsibility – basically making cold calls to patients for a project I’m working, asking them to participate. It’s an unbearably long story about why my team members and I have to do the calls, and why I especially hate this particular task, but it’s there. We’re under a lot of pressure to get these people to participate in our project. Any tips on dealing with the complete lack of motivation/lowered morale for doing this task? Thanks!

    1. blondie*

      Reward yourself after you complete x number of calls? Like after 5 calls, you get 10 minutes of funny cat videos or chocolate or something? Or after 1 successful call, you buy yourself a little treat?

  193. Sally O'Malley*

    Do you think it’s possible this guy’s pranking your office? Maybe even writing a blog or Reddit or something regaling his followers with his antics and the reactions they garner? Or possibly purposely trying to seem weird or even challenged so not much work is expected from him? Just trying to grasp this. I can’t imagine anyone not knowing about medical helicopters and curly hair no matter how sheltered, especially since he grew up in a skyscraper in a large city. I live in the po-dunkiest of po-dunk towns, and Medflight flies over my house at least once a week.

    1. Sally O'Malley*

      Sorry, I meant for this to be a comment under the first post but clicked on the wrong “reply” link.

  194. Katie ElderBerry*

    I received a resume last week for an entry level data entry position where the only special skill listed was “Makeup.”
    Just that one word, nothing else.
    I actually interviewed her, the only question she had for me was if she could keep her hair color (red) or if she would have to dye it.
    Her makeup was very nice, though.

    1. Jan Levinson*

      Hahaha aren’t you glad she lived up to her (apparently only) skill?

      Also….did she get the job? :)

    2. whichsister*

      I may put “cursing and being sarcastic” on mine.

      Curious, based on her resume, why did you interview her? Curiosity?

      2. Katie ElderBerry*

        Yes, our recruiter said she had a good attitude as was looking to get out of food service and I like to give people trying to get into office work a chance, but mostly I was curious.

  195. legalchef*

    More of a vent then anything. I have one supervisee who is not working at the standard that we expect from her. She is admittedly fairly new, but has the smallest workload of anyone by a significant margin, including people with the same or similar experience level. I’ve made our expectations clear to her, in writing, in terms of what she needs to do for each case to prep, and she doesn’t do it. I also give her clear deadlines for things, and it doesn’t get done on time (for instance, I was on vacation the past couple of weeks and before I left I sent her an email to do specific things by specific dates, and when I checked today, a lot of it wasn’t done on time or at all).

    She is here on a fellowship that ends this summer, though we can renew for another year if we wish. I certainly don’t want to see anyone lose a job, but on the other hand, she can’t carry her own weight, which isn’t fair to the rest of the team, and what work she does have she isn’t doing well enough. We have another fellow from the same program who is great, but I don’t know if we can renew one without the other (from an optics perspective).

    I am meeting with my boss next week and have this on the agenda. But I am so frustrated, because I am doing everything possible to try to get her to be better (including being super micromanage-y, which I hate doing), and nothing is working!

    1. Accidental Analyst*

      Have you explained that in order to even consider renewing her fellowship she needs to be at x level by a certain time?

      Can you speak to an adviser in the program? Maybe they’ve advice on how to approach her. Also they could let you know about renewing one and not another. It would be a same if the one who was performing wasn’t able to continue due to their coworker.

      1. legalchef*

        We haven’t specifically told her that she needs to be at x level by a certain date. The thinking was that by setting out the requirements, it would force her to do the work and therefore get her at that level. But, since she isn’t doing it…

        I do think the next step will probably her meeting with my boss and me where she is specifically told that she needs to get to X by Y date.

        Speaking to an adviser in the program is a good idea – perhaps they have had this situation happen before at a different org so they could speak to how it played out there. I don’t think they’d be super useful because they are very disorganized, but it might be worth a try.

    2. Sadsack*

      I don’t understand the optics perspective, although I admittedly have no experience with fellowships. If she isn’t keeping up and you have told her so, then no one should be surprised that you don’t want her back. I am wondering why you can’t threaten to end her fellowship early, but like I say s, I don’t know how that works. Have you told her that you won’t consider accepting her again if she doesn’t start doing her job?

      1. legalchef*

        I guess the best way to describe the optics issue is that from the perspective of the remaining staff it’s easier to say “we weren’t able to continue the fellowship so they are leaving” as opposed to this one was so bad we had to fire her.

        1. Accidental Analyst*

          An alternate optics for the staff – the fellowship was for a one year position. You wish the weaker worker well in future endeavours. You’re happy to announce that due to outstanding performance you’ve been able to extend the fellowship for the second worker.

          If you stopped both fellowships and it got out that you could have extended the stronger worker but didn’t because of the weaker worker that could cause a bigger optics problem.

          1. legalchef*

            Well, I don’t think that other people know of her performance issues (unless she’s told them about my conversations with her), which is why from one perspective it seems “easier” to not renew both of the fellowships. But also seems massively unfair to the one who is doing well!

    3. Hermione*

      If she has an advisor/contact through the fellowship program, I would also contact them before making any decisions with regards to optics. From the academic administrative side of things, I would absolutely want to know if a fellow wasn’t working out in a placement, especially where it could affect 1) the current/continuing placement of the other fellow, 2) future relations with an employer and 3) perceptions of the fellowship overall.

  196. blondie*

    I’m going into major BEC mode with a coworker who regularly parks in a handicapped spot. Her husband is disabled, so she has a handicapped license plate on her car. She may have medical issues that I don’t know about, but every morning she parks in the handicapped spot, and every afternoon she takes a mile walk around our building for exercise. I mean, if she truly needed to park closer to the building for medical reasons, how can she manage a 20+ minute walk in the afternoon?

    We have limited handicapped parking spots so that just makes me extra mad, because by parking there, she is literally causing extra pain and distress for others who have a legitimate need to have easy access to the building.

    1. Not Karen*

      If you’re interested in doing something about it, it is in fact illegal to use someone else’s disability license plates (when you’re not transporting them).

      1. Need to graduate*

        If you do go that route, be careful. I used to have a handicapped placard for myself because of a heart condition and autoimmune arthritis and would sometimes be accused of stealing it from my grandparents (I was a teenager) because “I looked fine to them”. Some medical conditions like arthritis are worse in the morning than the afternoon, and walking is one of the things that is recommended to help “loosen up the joints”. It actually is possible that she can’t walk that far in the morning and can in the afternoon.

        1. CAA*

          Yeah, I think you should assume the she has medical issues you don’t know about. There are so many disabilities you cannot see and being able to walk a mile in 20 minutes doesn’t mean she doesn’t have one.

    2. Gadfly*

      Although all the points about invisible disabilities and such are true, I also feel your frustration. My mother uses a wheelchair and often can’t get out of her car if she isn’t in a handicapped spot. So when people use them to “just run in for a minute” or whatever, it makes my blood boil.

  197. Pam Beasley*

    Just have to vent. My supervisor left for over 3 hours today to get her oil changed. She is exempt, and takes advantage of it. She is constantly leaving the office midday and leaving early to “run errands.” I would say she works an average of 30 hours a week as a “full time” employee.

    It would be one thing if she was still getting her work done, but she doesn’t. She sits on things and doesn’t address them until the people affected get angry (customers, outside sales reps, coworkers, etc.) She complains about how busy she is when she is here, but when I go into her office, she is more times than not playing games on her phone, or browsing the internet.

    We have a small office, and my coworkers and I are constantly picking up my boss’s slack in her absence. In the off chance that one of us has to leave early, or go to an appointment midday (not just run casual errands), we get pushback. It’s usually a response of, “well, we’ll play it by ear, I may be able to let you leave an hour early, but probably not an hour and a half.” It is so, extremely frustrating.

    I know people will tend to say “worry about yourself, not her”, but it’s difficult when her leaving affects mine, and others’ work, and she’s so uptight about anyone else leaving even for a fraction of the time that she often does.

    Is there anything I can do to fix this situation?

    1. Rebecca*

      What you don’t know is how much she works when she isn’t in the office. It’s possible she’s working in the evenings, or on weekends, and does errands during the week. It stinks that she seems unreasonable with her direct reports’ requests, though. If she’s goofing off at work, and not dealing with things, maybe it’s time that you and your coworkers stop noticing that her work needs to be done every time she skips out. Sometimes, unless there are consequences, things don’t change. And, if she hedges on how much time you need for an appointment, you could always ask for 2 hours, knowing you’ll need 1.5 hours max, and let her reduce it to her time frame, just to make herself feel better.

  198. EA*

    UHHHHH

    What are your real life coping skills to deal with shitty situations?

    My boss is a pain in the ass, he asked me to do something, and I did it. I have his request in writing. He didn’t explain it at all correctly. He had actually wanted something different, and kept saying I ‘didn’t keep up with it’ I explained what I thought I was suppose to do, and showed him the email. He just said over and over again that I didn’t keep up with it.

    I know this is how it is, and he is just a pain in the ass. I couldn’t like, literally be omniscient and read his mind when his words showed something different. What can I do to stop from getting upset? I know I couldn’t have done anything differently. It wasn’t an ambiguous request that I would know to ask follow up questions.

    1. Gadfly*

      Besides drinking? I keep thinking I need to try that next, because reasonable answers just don’t apply to this sort of crap.

    2. Freya UK*

      Ugh, I am sorry. I’m currently in a job with a manager that expects me to be psychic and is unbelievably awful at explaining what he wants too – it took me four months to decipher that when he said he wanted ‘feedback’, what he actually wanted was for me to ask more questions – and then when I said that I ask the amount of questions I need to, he just kept reiterating that I don’t ask enough… like, sorry for being a fast learner?!

      My coping mechanisms are saying ‘Okay’ in a matter-of-fact way with a chirpy edge, then carrying-on as I was already, pretending to be more oblivious/stupid than I really am, rolling my eyes, and also job-hunting. I have thus far resisted the whiskey bottle at 8am, but cannot guarantee that will remain possible.

  199. emma2*

    HELP- I suck at interviewing.
    – I have done over 30 interviews over the course of 1.5years (3 this week – one rejection) for jobs I’m perfectly qualified for, and only got 2 of them (contracts), sometimes losing out to much less qualified people than me (yes, I understand that there are millions of qualified people in different ways, but there has to be at least ONE opportunity for me)
    – I read Alison’s interview manual
    – I prepare thoroughly for all my interviews, wear business clothes, shower daily, not act like a raging jerk, send thank you emails-not-care-packages, and all those basics
    – I AM reserved, and I suspect that is holding me back – so my question is, how much of a turnoff is it when a job candidate seems reserved/boring in an interview? Any advice?

    Advice in general would be wonderful. Thank you!

    1. EA*

      First off- What is your field. I only ask because if you are going to be in development/sales you might need to be super outgoing.

      Second- I had a friend like this. Tons of interivews and no jobs. I did a practice with her, and she came across super serious and stiff. She needed to be more casual/conversational. I would do some practice interviews with an honest friend to see what the problem is. I don’t think you need to be the life of the party, but she was trying to act professional, and she came across bizarrely TBH. I think just showing you have a personality is enough. Try to work in a hobby or some excitement about something is enough to seem like a normal person that other people will want to work with.

  200. Awkward Notice*

    I have a question about giving supervisors advance notice of a likely need for bereavement leave. We have been told that it is a matter of days for one of spouse’s relatives. Spouse’s family is in a different state, so I went ahead and spoke with my team lead and he spoke with my manager to be sure I would be able to take sufficient time off to attend the funeral and be there for spouse/spouse’s family.

    The thing is, I’m currently on loan to another team at work. Should I go ahead and give that lead a head’s up that I may be taking a few days off without much notice sometime in the coming weeks? We’re in a major crunch right now, so it could be useful information, on the other hand I feel really awkward bringing it up, especially since I don’t have a solid idea of the timeline.

    I may be overthinking this due to stress/feelings, so I’d appreciate an outside perspective.

    1. burnout no more*

      I say yes, and it does not have to be a lengthy conversation or awkward at all. Just a simple, “I’ve spoken to my Team Lead, Rocco, about this already but just to keep you in the loop, my wife’s mother is dying and we’ve been put on notice that it could be any day now. I just want you to know I will be taking a few days to attend the funeral when the time comes.”

      easy peasy

    2. Jan Levinson*

      I would.

      I think you are perhaps overthinking this! Since you mentioned you were in major crunch time, I would think your coworkers/boss(es) would appreciate the heads up, even if the timeline is a bit fuzzy.

    3. CAA*

      Yes, tell whoever is depending on you.

      As a manager, I’ve always appreciated a quick heads-up that someone might need some emergency time off whether it be for a funeral, a birth, a spouse’s kidney transplant or whatever. Aside from being able to anticipate workloads, I want to reassure the person that we understand his need to be with his family, help with any benefits issues (though your own manager is probably doing that), and just be aware that this person might have some extra stress in his personal life so if he’s a little different or a little off at work I can be more tolerant.

  201. Xarcady*

    Ugh. Just got called into my supervisor’s office because someone “tattled” on me that I was just sitting at my desk and randomly clicking on documents. I was asked to explain what I was doing.

    Well, I was proofreading. And part of that is doing stuff like making sure pages numbers are in order and on every page, checking that headers and footers are correct and where they are supposed to be. As well as going back through every revision the document has ever had and double-checking to make sure it was made. There’s a lot of scrolling back and forth, clicking quickly from page to page, that sort of thing.

    I wasn’t goofing off. The deadline for the job is today–and I was just doing what I’ve done on hundreds of other jobs.

    The fact that yesterday I edited a document the tattler wrote and had to fix basic spelling and grammar all the way through couldn’t possibly have anything to do with getting tattled on today, could it? Not that I could say that out loud.

    My supervisor is placated for the moment. But boy, the life of a temp is not an easy one.

    2. Bolt*

      Just brace yourself for hell going forward – your supervisor will consider this a warning and everything you do on your computer will be scrutinized.

  202. Soooo annonymous.*

    I have spent this entire week finalizing our deluxe teapot order to our largest client By. My. Damn. Self. For the past few months, I have written specifications to create and automate the production of deluxe teapots and produced at least 500+ new teapots, with each specification being quality controlled for any irregularities. This is normally the work of a 5 person team over a 5-6 month period and I’ve been a 1-2 person team completing this over a 3 month period (person 2 QCs but doesn’t produce). The deadline for the order is today and I have fulfilled all of the deluxe teapots in the order and compiled pictures of each new deluxe teapot in a three volume report (500pgs total).

    My coworker, Fergus, has been here 20 years and is one of the original creators of our very first teapot. He is producing the basic version of our teapots with a team of 5 and he is no where near completion. On many occasions he’s come to me asking how to run specifications on the basic teapots, specifications that have been in practice for the past 12 years. Specifications he should be aware of as he is often the expert consulted/listed in the spec’s procedure manual. Also, about a quarter of the teapots he needs are to be pulled directly from our warehouse to fulfill the order. He does not have to do anything to them, just pull them from the shelf and place them in with the current order. And he is still behind.

    My boss, Lucinda, is pretty useless in this. She was supposed to edit the text that accompanies the report I completed. Much of which has been lifted from the basic teapot report text. Also, Granboss and Great-Granboss have written a lot of the text to describe the difference between the deluxe teapots and the basic teapots. She is also behind and does not seem like she will finish.

    I am exhausted and mentally drained and now it looks like I’ll have to chip in to help Fergus and Lucinda so that they can meet the deadlines. I just want to scream. I’m all for being a team player, but where was the team when I was doing my work?!?!?!?!

  203. Intrepid*

    Earlier this week, I had an informal conversation about an internal transfer with the manager whose team I’d be on. He asked about salary, and I basically said “$X, but I’d love to come up a little.” He asked where I was in the salary range for my role, and I said I thought I was a little low.

    Honestly, I wasn’t prepared for the question (I thought it was a more informal chat). I got a raise in December, which I honestly forgot to mention because I was caught flat-footed. Even $2-3k would make a huge difference in my quality of life, but my #1 need is getting off of my current team. Then, in a conversation later this week, I learned that I’m about dead center for my role.

    Do I need to do anything or bring this up in any way the next time I talk to him about potentially moving to his team?

    1. CAA*

      Well, it’s an internal transfer, so he can easily confirm your salary and where that falls in the band for the position and when you last got a raise. He shouldn’t be relying on you to provide that level of detail as many people don’t seem to know what they earn or even what they want to earn.

      If you think you misled him, or if you’re afraid he might think you were deliberately misleading him, you can say something like “last time we talked you asked about salary, and I forgot to mention that I’d recently gotten a raise and now earn $Y instead of the $X number that I gave you. I’m still hoping to come up to $Z.” You certainly don’t have to tell him that you now know you’re actually mid-range rather than low-range for your role.

      1. Intrepid*

        Yeah, it’s a fear of misleading + I really should’ve mentioned that I got this raise, as it took me from waaaay under to apparently on-the-nose. Yet, at the same time, I don’t want to low-ball myself if I could get more.

  204. Sooooo anonymous.*

    I have spent this entire week finalizing our deluxe teapot order to our largest client By. My. Damn. Self. For the past few months, I have written specifications to create and automate the production of deluxe teapots and produced at least 500+ new teapots, with each specification being quality controlled for any irregularities. This is normally the work of a 5 person team over a 5-6 month period and I’ve been a 1-2 person team completing this over a 3 month period (person 2 QCs but doesn’t produce). The deadline for the order is today and I have fulfilled all of the deluxe teapots in the order and compiled pictures of each new deluxe teapot in a three volume report (500pgs total).

    My coworker, Fergus, has been here 20 years and is one of the original creators of our very first teapot. He is producing the basic version of our teapots with a team of 5 and he is nowhere near completion. On many occasions he’s come to me asking how to run specifications on the basic teapots, specifications that have been in practice for the past 12 years. Specifications he should be aware of as he is often the expert consulted/listed in the spec’s procedure manual. Also, about a quarter of the teapots he needs are to be pulled directly from our warehouse to fulfill the order. He does not have to do anything to them, just pull them from the shelf and place them in with the current order. And he is still behind.

    My boss, Lucinda, is pretty useless in this. She was supposed to edit the text that accompanies the report I completed. Much of which has been lifted from the basic teapot report text. Also, Granboss and Great-Granboss have written a lot of the text to describe the difference between the deluxe teapots and the basic teapots. She is also behind and does not seem like she will finish.

    I am exhausted and mentally drained and now it looks like I’ll have to chip in to help Fergus and Lucinda so that they can meet the deadlines. I just want to scream. I’m all for being a team player, but where was the team when I was doing my work?!?!?!?!

  205. overeducated*

    I’m six months into a two year position and I don’t know if I can make it. My coworkers are lovely, I have good work life balance, and i am learning a lot, but the job isn’t what I expected and I went from basically no supervision (academia) to zero autonomy and heavy bureaucracy. From one extreme to the other, and it makes me worry I took a step in the wrong direction and will have trouble finding my way back to the middle.

    Just got a rejection after a first interview for a job where I worked with the head of the search committee, too. So ouch.

    On the bright side, I’m paid via 1099* and buy my own health insurance, and for now that’s safe. Phew.

    * yes, it is legally possible to be paid that way but lack control of working conditions. I’m in a loophole. Let’s not discuss further.

    1. emma2*

      I’m in the same boat re-being paid via 1099 but not truly being an “independent contractor” (as much as I try to convince myself that is what I am.)

      For what it’s worth, I wouldn’t overanalyze about the “direction” you are headed in (I know how tempting it is.) Every job is a learning experience, and you will eventually move on from it sooner or later.

  206. New Bee*

    I got news last week of my team being eliminated in a few months. On the upside, I have several in-demand skills and a robust network, and we get our severance payment regardless of whether we leave on or before our official last day, so I have the luxury of a paid job search.

    The awkward part is I think the CEO expected us to jump at the opportunity to join other teams and is kind of scrambling now that the impact of next year’s turnover is shaking out…

    Anyone else have experience being a lame duck of sorts?

  208. Anon for this*

    At what point is something “work”? (Going anon for this)

    I recently started a new job in a field that is mostly new to me. Up til now all the training has been on-the-job – my supervisor shows me how to do something, has me do a standardized training module, then signs off on me being able to do that task; I do the task under close supervision for a week or two and then more on my own for a while before adding a new task to my repertoire. The next unit involves a specialized code that I will need to memorize – quite logical but takes some time to get used to in real-life situations, for example over the phone with someone who’s giving you the info rapid-fire. Since all the previous training has been during official assigned work hours I didn’t worry about this at first – I assumed she would give me some kind of training to prepare and I’d pick it up at a reasonable pace like I have everything else. But one day recently she gave me the handouts with the code and basically said something like “Practice this at home” or “In your free time”. She has a joking manner, so I didn’t take it completely seriously and set the papers aside with other things that I would get around to eventually. I’m an hourly worker – the idea that she would want me to work on something for work outside of official hours was not even something that occurred to me.

    Then more recently, without any warning, she gave me a surprise quiz on it, which I of course failed. It’s not something that, at this moment, is going to be my doom, but I don’t know yet what kind of deadline I’m on – when I’ll be expected to start doing the task that the code is used for. It really upset me and is one more thing to add to my long, long list of reasons why she makes me very uncomfortable and why I will transfer to another department as soon as I can…which is at least a year from now.

    For me it’s more the principle of the thing that is bothering me. Memorizing the code is a work task; therefore it should be learned during work hours. I’m not salaried, and my work hours are well-defined. I am not being paid to work on this task outside of standard hours, and all overtime is strictly regulated, so there’s no way to add a few hours to a week or two to cover “studying”. I wouldn’t even have taken this job except there’s nothing in my usual field, my work history is spotty due to health issues (now resolved), I’d been unemployed much longer than anticipated, and this job has fantastic benefits.

    Am I being too sensitive about this? This is in the US fyi.

    1. whichsister*

      it’s my understanding it’s illegal for an hourly to do any work (including training) outside of work. We have an issue with that in my job. I work for a company that owns multiple franchise tea shops… and a lot of the tea server training is online. We can not have them do it at home without paying them. Before I started, the company was even audited. But there was no way to prove that team members were doing it. Since then , the system was upgraded and we can now see when people are logged on. So we have to be super careful .

  209. Lemon Zinger*

    A director in my office just sent out an email offering free tickets to a local sporting event this weekend. While I would love to go, I do not want to socialize with senior staff outside of work. I’m totally comfortable hanging out with my immediate teammates because we are peers, but the idea of spending hours outside of work with my boss’s boss freaks me out!

    How would this scenario make you feel?

    1. Rincat*

      For me it really depends on the boss. I have one former boss I would be totally fine with going to a sporting event – he’s close to my age and we have a lot in common, so I feel a little more like he was a peer. But with some of my other bosses…nope. However my current CIO is a pretty rad guy and I’d go to a game with him.

    2. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      Hmm. I would probably want to find out more about the tickets being used for this event. If it’s individual seats in a box where you would definitely be in close quarters with senior staff and you don’t feel comfortable with that, then no I wouldn’t use them. That being said, you’re going to be at a sporting event so even if you are in close quarters with people from work, there is a game going on and I don’t know that you necessarily need to feel overly “on” for this event. I went with a friend to a sporting event once with his company’s tickets and while we greeted the people we were sitting next to (people from his office) we didn’t really talk to them otherwise. It’s not like he or anyone else felt like this was a networking event.

      However, at my old job we were frequently offered tickets to sporting events and they were not necessarily tickets that were grouped closely together. They were in groups of 2 or 4 but not all together. So it may be worth finding out a bit more about how the ticket groups are organized.

  210. LadyKelvin*

    I am a bit annoyed to day and I need to vent a bit. I have a colleague who insists to informing us all how much she works and it is driving me insane. She is a new support person who, while having worked here for the last year and a half, just started with our program a few days before I did. I am not a support person, but I often fear that I am lumped into the same group with her because I am also young and a women and the only women who is not support (but that is another matter altogether). At a meeting we had on Wed she was asked to pull a dataset so that I can analyze it for an upcoming meeting I am attending. There are many steps to this, but instead of working through the problem, she is emailing us to update us on every step of the way and sending out all of the intermediate datasets she produces. Today, just over 24 hours after the meeting, we got a several paragraph long email about what she has done so far and what problems she has encountered and what she plans on doing next week and don’t worry she’ll send out all the datasets she creates as she does them. I can only use the final dataset. Everything else in between is a waste because it is useless to me. Did I mention we are meeting next week to update on the progress of what we are working on? So she could wait until next week and tell us what’s happening, instead I get a play-by-play of every detail. Not to mention that in the end of one of her emails she included a reminder that she and I had Monday off (our team is staffed by several different agencies, so ours gets a state holiday while everyone else doesn’t). I worry that by referencing me in the email it is implying my consent, but I would never feel the need to inform people who don’t care that I have a holiday Monday, it’s on my calendar if they need to know. I’m trying to stay out of it by not replying to her many emails because they don’t need responses, but do I need to be concerned that I am somehow going to be associated with her behavior? Because I’m really not like that, I’ll deliver the final product of my work when its done and only talk to the relevant people when I need help. After I realized that she does this, I noticed that she did this for the last project we both worked on, sent out the results of every step she did when we were only interested in the final results. Also, how do I manage my annoyance at this seemingly trivial matter.

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      Has anyone told her she’s doing the task wrong?

      As to the day off thing, it might be a norm from her old team? In my team we do indeed email round if we’re going to be off…

  211. MissGirl*

    I need to stop reading this blog. I had an interview on Wednesday. It was a second interview, and they said prior they were only bringing a few people back for round two so I was nervous. Then late Tuesday night I get an email from another company wanting to schedule an interview. I went to sleep, or tried to, super stressed about everything as big decisions do that to me. That night I dreamt my interviews were a kaleidoscope of everything on this blog about bad interviews. The email contained the names everyone being called in and I wanted to look them up on LinkedIn but knew that freaked some people out. The actual interviews were in huge groups where we were required to participate in team activities that were also meant to weed people out. It was all very survivor style. I was so relieved to wake up and go to a normal interview.

    On the flip side, the first company has asked for my references so I think I have a good shot. I know a lot of people claim applying online is a waste of time but both of these positions were online applications, so you never know.

  212. Contrarian Annie*

    I work in technology with designers and managers who frequently seem to make major decisions (about which software system to select, etc) based on what they want to develop experience in and get on their resume, rather than what’s good for the company/current situation. Can I bring this up with anyone, and if so how?

    For example… we need a new piece of machinery for attaching spouts to teapots. Option 1 is the tried and tested technology which we can put in place quickly, has great support from the vendor, etc. Option 2 is the “sexy new technology” that gets buzzwords in the industry but will take much longer to put in place, doesn’t really fit with our requirements and would need a lot of extra changes to the teapot assembly line. Option 2 is mysteriously chosen, seemingly because the decision makers want to get experience with Option 2 onto their resume, at the expense of the company.

    1. CAA*

      Whether you can bring this up depends on your role at the company, your own technical skill set and the amount of political capital you have.

      E.g. – if you are the head of purchasing, then you can probably unilaterally institute a decision making system that requires something like a CMMI DAR process. If you are a senior or mid-career engineer then you could discuss it with your manager or team lead and suggest that some objective criteria be adopted for decision making. If you are a junior engineer, you might just ask neutral questions without critiquing the past decisions. If you are in an unrelated business function, you probably can’t stick your nose into another department’s business without stirring up some annoyance.

      Also, evaluating and adopting newer technology may actually be a reasonable goal that your company supports. It can improve morale, minimize staff turnover, enable the company to take on new types of work or bid on new contracts, etc. I’d recommend treading softly and making sure you know all the background info if you want to pursue it, then start with your own supervisor.

  213. Frazzled Newish Manager*

    One of my direct reports came to me earlier this week, stating that she had a complaint about one of her coworkers (who is also my direct report). We sat down to talk, and come to find out, she was upset and “shocked” (her word, not mine) because the coworker in question had used the word “damn” one day at work. To clarify, the person was not using this word in front of customers, nor was she using it in an abusive or hostile way. From what I understand, the person dropped something and then said “damn”. My direct report told me that she is very offended by the use of curse words, and that she doesn’t like hearing them being used in the workplace. I apologized for the fact that the use of this language had offended her, and I told her that I would speak to the coworker in question. My direct report was satisfied by this.

    Fast forward to the end of the week, and I still have not talked to the coworker in question, because honestly, I am not sure what to say. I do respect the fact that the person who came to me feels uncomfortable, and I don’t want her to feel that way at work. In fact, I don’t particularly like the use of curse words myself, but I also understand that it is inevitable that I will be around people in my day-to-day life who do use those words, and I choose to just not let it bother me, at least not to the point in which I would bring it to the attention of a manager. I feel like to sit down with someone and chastise him or her for using “damn” would come off as very juvenile. We do have a company policy that states that employees cannot use “offensive, foul, or abusive language” while at work, so I could reference that policy while talking to the coworker, but our company culture honestly does not reflect this policy. Our president uses curse words all the time, and he has even done so in front of the entire staff at company functions. I guess that our company has an unspoken sort of understanding that using curse words is not a big deal unless you are using them in front of customers, or unless you are verbally abusing somebody. I am very torn. Its technically policy, and I should follow up, since the one person is finding it to be offensive, but I also feel like maybe this person won’t be happy here in the long run, because I am sure that this will come up again at some point. Does anyone have any suggestions for the best way to handle this?

    1. Going anon again*

      I would just give them a heads up that the other coworker is bothered by the use of curse words and ask them to try to avoid using them in the future around this person. Say that you recognize sometimes things come out unexpectedly, but it is company policy and since someone has said something, you are obligated to ask them to refrain from using them. Otherwise, I wouldn’t make a big deal out of it.

    2. LisaLee*

      I think you should say to the complainer the same thing you said here basically. “I understand why you find curse words unprofessional and I feel the same way myself. However, we’re all adults and people do use them sometimes, especially when they’re surprised. You can tell Coworker that you don’t like hearing curse words if you like, but I am not going to have a formal talk with him about this.”

      I don’t think it’s particularly reasonable for her to want everyone to monitor their language 100% 24/7–things happen and people slip up. I also don’t think this violates an “offensive, abusive, or foul language policy” as I’ve always interpreted those to mean more language outside the normal bounds of conversation. Plenty of polite conversations include the word “damn.”

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah, this is how I’d suggest handling it too. You’re not obligated to follow up on every complaint you receive — and nor should you in some cases!

    3. Imaginary Number*

      I would encourage your direct report to address the issue with the person herself before bringing it to you (although internally I would find this completely over-the-top because I curse under my breath at work all the time … and probably not-under-my-breath a little more than I should.)

      I had a coworker who would openly refer to things like sex and male private parts. This was the Army and it didn’t really bother me. He’s the sort of person who probably would have stopped if I’d asked him to. But it caught me totally off-guard when I used “Jesus Christ” one day (to myself) and he asked me to please not to curse like that in front of him. I actually laughed because I seriously thought he was joking … turns out, he wasn’t. Everyone’s different about what offends them.

      I wouldn’t enforce a “no saying damn ever because Suzie gets offended” rule in the workplace. Sometimes you stub your toe and words come out. But I would encourage people to be upfront with each other if someone uses a curse/term that bothers them and for coworkers to try to respect that.

  214. So Very Anonymous*

    OK, this is late, but maybe someone can offer some reassurance. I just got contacted about doing a Skype interview on Tuesday. I’ll be doing the interview from my laptop at home due to NO privacy where I work. I just got email with details indicating that I have “a hard wired connection and preferably speak into a head set.” I have done numerous Skype interviews, but have never been told in advance that I should use a headset. I don’t use one at work because I’m essentially in an open office plan, my work doesn’t really involve much phone use, and I use a conference room if I do need to make a phone call. I don’t really use Skype for anything else.

    What would the reasoning behind using a headset be? Should I be getting one or looking into borrowing one? If I’m doing this interview from home, where I don’t expect there to be significant ambient noise (lawnmower day is usually Monday :S), do I need a headset? I’ve emailed back a quick question about whether it’ll be a problem that I don’t have one.

    I might add that this isn’t quite my dream job and that I’m also supposed to have a conversation with their HR department on Monday, which may very well result in both sides concluding that the job isn’t a fit. Much will depend on what their pay range is, to be honest (wasn’t listed in the posting).

    Or am I overthinking this? :)

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Do you have earbuds that came with your cell phone? You can usually use that.

    2. MissGirl*

      The headset just makes it easier to hear you. It catches your voice better than speaking into your computer’s mic. I wouldn’t worry as long as you know you have a good signal and mic. Maybe to a test run with a friend and see if you’re able to communicate with them.

    3. So Very Anonymous*

      Thanks for the input y’all! I so have earbuds and I’ve identified a “real” headset I can also borrow. My polite email asking about this also got me a “no worries, that’s pretty much just boilerplate” response, so I’m good either way. But I’m going to borrow the headset anyway in case there are leaf blowers in action that day (they *usually* come to my complex on Mondays, but lately it’s seemed more random).

    4. Daria Grace*

      Skype has a test number where you can call and it will play back what you said so you can hear your audio quality. Might be worth using that a couple of times to check your setup works

      1. So Very Anonymous*

        Awesome, thanks! I’ve done a number of interviews this way and it’s never come up, so I’ve just assumed everything was OK. But checking ahead is a good idea. That they have this boilerplate makes me thinks they’ve had problems before that they’re trying to forestall :)

  215. paul*

    When a client comes in at 3:30pm on a Friday and has an honest to god eviction notice (as in, the sheriff is showing up to remove them) for 5pm that day…no, we’re probably not going to be able to find you resources that can prevent this. At this point your landlord may well not even accept payment from any community resources because they’ve been fighting you for a while.

    Sorry, I can get you a bed at a shelter but that’s about it for the night. No, it doesn’t mean I suck at my job. TGIF

    1. Zis*

      As a former property manager and current leasing consultant, depending on the situation it could be your fault :). Not that it is in this case, but were there warning signs that this might happen due to the tenant’s behavior?

      We have some residents at my current property who have adult caretakers because of their disabilities, and they handle all the payments and paperwork. Some of the residents were in danger of eviction earlier this year because their caseworkers were not paying the full rent+utility fees, or were consistently being late with the payment and incurring late fees. It took three months for my current boss to reach someone senior enough in the company to get them to pay those fees.

      In my former property, we did get companies renting our furnished units for workers they brought in from the Mainland. While we did pass on house rules and such to the workers, the company was responsible for paying rent on time, maintaining renter’s insurance, and providing us with all the necessary information on who was living in the unit.

  216. I Am Become the Internet, Destroyer of Time*

    Thanks for the suggestions you guys gave me a couple weeks back.

    I’ve spent some time reflecting on my habits, to try to find things to fix before heading into real life. In talking to a relative about my work on my graduate project, he pointed out that the perfectionism I’ve taken pride in so far can result in really bad time drains.

    Are there any recovered/ing perfectionists out there with recovery tips?

    (I feel extra anxious about this because the field I’m going into has exact, precise standards for correctness, and is also held to exact standards for timeliness and budget. I don’t want to be “that guy” who overanalyzes everything and gets nothing done, or “that guy” who says “screw it, good enough” and turns in a piece of crap.)

  217. Sadie Doyle*

    I finished my first ever performance appraisals today! :D

    Unfortunately, I think they’re a bit samey and some of my feedback might seem a little generic, but it’s not a job that allows for a lot of innovation or initiative, and I think that I spoke to their skills well. My boss is going to look them over, and maybe give me feedback.

    1. CAA*

      Cut and paste is your friend when writing a lot of performance appraisals. :-) When you’re answering a question about interpersonal interactions, there just aren’t that many ways to say that someone has a good attitude, is always pleasant with customers, and his teammates like to work with him. As long as you individualize the answers on the meatier questions about accomplishments and areas for improvement by providing specific examples, I think you’re fine.

  218. Anxa*

    I think I need some guidance on how to handle multiple job searches at once. Long story short, I have a few false starts. In college I majored in biology, didn’t have a science job in college, then couldn’t get a research position after graduation. Instead I tutored, worked in customer service, volunteered a bit, and tried to get a job in public health. My license lapsed and I moved, then went back to classes to improve my bench skills (but also so avoid major depression by adding some structure in my life).

    At this point I have 3 main directions to go in: Environmental health (recertify once I save up money or something adjacent), research tech, or try to transition into admininstrative work in higher ed (advising, etc.)

    So the issue I have is how to apply for jobs with the state and at universities. I roughly have a system where I avoid applying for non-science jobs at universities and use community and liberal arts colleges as my outlet for student service jobs.

    I’m looking for entry-level work, although I’m not exactly and entry-level person. I know part of why things didn’t stick with me was my own lack of focus and I know I cant be too flighty or flakey. I have not been applying to jobs like administrative assistant or general labor (which I did way back when), but I still worry about the fact that I really don’t KNOW what the one path I want to take is. And to be honest I don’t think I’ll really know until I have a chance to explore my options. At my age I should know better, and I’m not really young enough to get away with trying new things out the same way I did when I was 22, but I also haven’t really gotten a chance to properly explore my options either (because I never did get a full-time or paid job in the fields I trained for).

    So, sometimes my system gets messed up and a job appears at Institution Research Jobs for something that matches my Environmental Health stuff, and I wonder how I could possible seem like a strong candidate for research support when I’m also off being attracted to something different. But it’s so rare to find entry level jobs in that field, too, that don’t require a license and how could I not apply!?

    I’m especially hesitant because I don’t want to torch my ‘reputation’ as a research assistant on a application for a position that’s not a good match. The EHS jbos are often listed with higher salaries and very few exp or education requirements. They are also more unionized. I just feel like maybe I’m not really what they have in mind.

    1. Lady Julian*

      A couple of thoughts.

      My father always told me, “You can’t say no to anything until they offer you the job.” The point was to go ahead and apply for lots of stuff, and worry later about whether it was the perfect fit for me. I think this is good advice, especially since (as AAM) brings out, the hiring/interviewing process is as much about you figuring out whether you’re interested in the job as them figuring out whether they’re interested in you. Reading your post, you sound like you’re reluctant to apply to stuff, partly because you might not have the skills the employer is looking for, and partly because you’re not sure if you want the job. I guess I’d say go ahead and apply; you can figure out the answers to these questions as you go along.

      You mentioned you’re afraid of “torching” your reputation by applying, but I’m not sure how that works? Reputation is people talking (sorry, Firefly reference). But the point is, reputations are public, and applications generally aren’t. I’m confused about how your reputation will be ruined by the fact that you applied. Even at larger universities, departments won’t necessarily talk to each other about how you apply for a wide range of jobs.

      I also sympathize with you on not knowing what the ONE path you want to take is. I’m in my 30s and still not sure! Not knowing where you want to go in life is cary. I don’t think I’d give up on trying out new things just because you’re not 22; I know lots of people who made a pretty big life change in their 30s and 40s and found this new thing that they love. It’s okay to not be certain and to keep exploring. Good luck!

      We shall not cease from exploration
      And the end of all our exploring
      Will be to arrive where we started
      And know the place for the first time.

      1. Anxa*

        I guess I meant that I didn’t want to give HR a negative impression as someone who is either resume bombing and desperate (which I think I’m doing well enough to avoid) or is trying to be too many different applicants at once or isn’t all that passionate about the jobs in cluster A because the jobs in cluster B are also generating my interest.

    2. overeducated*

      I wouldn’t worry so much about applying to different types of jobs at different institutions. The hiring managers will only see your applications for their departments and won’t know what else you’ve applied for. The HR people filtering applications will be looking to see if you meet the qualifications for each opening, and I would be surprised if they compared with your previous applications unless you are really flooding them.

      I applied for both staff and faculty positions at a few universities last year. The number is small but I got a few faculty interviews and one staff offer, so it didn’t seem to hurt.

  219. Elizabeth West*

    Damn damn damn.

    1. I found a proofreading job I would love that would be perfect for me and is where I want to live, but the listing said, “we prefer local candidates.” I applied anyway, emphasizing that I am extremely eager to locate to TheirHugeCity and I hope they will consider me. I wish to hell I could afford to move and subsist there until I find a job. If I could have done that, I bet I could have gotten this job. :(

    2. A very similar job here that I was excited to apply to called me–but they made it part-time. It’s on the other side of town and isn’t even worth driving to for only 20 hours a week. Part of me thinks I should have talked to them about it anyway, for the experience, but I can’t justify that with so few hours, and I can’t get another part-time job without doing retail or food service (which wants full-time availability). I have no confidence in my ability to fill in with freelance work. The thought of it made me want to cry, so I declined an interview but expressed my interest in working for them if something else came up.

    The caller was very understanding that I wanted full time but she said they just don’t have enough work to make the job full time, and they had moved some of the other duties to existing staff so they could cut this position’s hours.

    Bummed. :(

    On the bright side, I had a massage / manicure on Monday and had a lovely time (the spa was having a special). I never had a manicure before and I loved it–I got the lotion, the wax, the whole schmear. Plus next Wednesday I have a hair appointment, so I will get more pampering. Which I need. I’m trying to keep myself presentable and not have inches of grey roots hanging out. Nobody hiring needs to know how old I am (the massage guy thought I was in my thirties, haha).

  220. Salmorris*

    Hello, need a bit of advice. I am retraining from comms to data management. Applied for a job which is a fairly junior level position which means a pay cut (but hey thats what happens when you retrain) and have been offered an interview. The job is about one third data, two thirds general admin. The thing is, shortly after I applied the same company advertised 2 data exec positions. Theyre at a slightly higher level but dont look beyond my experience, however because I’ve never worked in this kind of role before, it’s not a surefire win. Im really excited about the data positions though, much more than the position I’ve been offered an interview for… what do I do? My gut is telling me not to throw away this opportunity when I may not even be considered for the other jobs but it seems disingenous not to even mention it when it’s the career I really want.

  221. Sparkly Librarian*

    I had an interview for Junior Chocolate Teapot Wrangler this morning (replacing a colleague who moved out of state). This is my third interview in about six months, and I think it’s the likeliest because it’s just a lateral transfer (though to a different workgroup) and I don’t think any other Chocolate Teapot Wranglers are interested. Hope to hear soon, and make the move (new location just down the road) by the end of April if it’s a yes. So I am putting my ducks in order at the current location. I’ve got events calendared out through the end of the summer, can get flyers printed before I leave, and have worked hard at making my setup easy to handle, so I hope that will be a boost to a temporary assignment until a permanent replacement can make it their own.

    What did you find most helpful in terms of documentation when you took over a position from someone who transferred (or left on good terms)? Temps especially encouraged to answer.

    1. Zis*

      I just started a position a few months back. The company was in the middle of a software transition and it was poorly handled, but from what I experienced I love having some sort of reference to the status of on-going projects so I can easily pick up from where the prior employee left off. I’ve also found that up-to-date contact information is especially important for a new hire; I spent a lot of time in the first two weeks updating contact information in rolodexes and binders.

      1. Zis*

        Also, updating rolodexes is annoying when your company asks you to reuse old cards and just stick on new labels rather than buying new ones. So please don’t use up all the office supplies before you leave!

  222. Chris*

    My former coworker who I’m friends with and my boss met up outside of work. They were friends before they started working together. He was thinking about coming back to the company, but my boss told him that he was a powerful influence in me being unhappy in my job. She told him that after he left, my attitude and performance shifted significantly. I have no idea where this is coming from. I’d like to have a discussion about it with her, but I don’t even know where to start without sounding like tattling.

    1. CAA*

      What would you like to accomplish by having the discussion? Would it change how you do your job now, or how your boss appraises your work or figures your compensation?

      1. Chris*

        If she has an issue, I want to address it head-on. I don’t think I’ve been negative or doing sloppy work. But if she thinks so, I want to be on the same page. Also, I think it’s pretty crappy that my manager is talking about me outside of work, to people we both know. I’d like to address that too.

        1. CAA*

          Well, first keep in mind that this may not have really been a conversation about you, regardless of what your friend said. Your name may have come up as nothing more than “Why yes, Chris is still with us and seems happy.” Your friend could have misinterpreted whatever was said or meant, so you don’t want to start out by assuming your manager is guilty of something she may not have done.

          You should address it during a regular check-in meeting with your boss. You could say something like “You may not be aware that I’m friendly with X, but he mentioned a conversation he had with you that made me wonder if you have issues with the way I do my job or the quality of my work. If so, I would want to know that so I could work on whatever needs improvement.” You can’t keep your friend out of this. He was, at the very least, indiscreet. If she didn’t say this to him, then she’ll be aghast that he’s spreading such rumors and won’t want to rehire him anyway. If she did say it, then hopefully she’ll be mortified that this got back to you and she will realize she shouldn’t do it again.

  223. tw*

    I started a new job a few weeks ago. I’m a young women in a very male dominated field. There are 3 other people at my level, 1 other woman. The department directors have paired the other woman and me to work together a lot and seem to associate us with each other. The other woman, however, has some not great work habits. She has been taking a lot of personal calls and texting under the table during meetings. Am I going to be associated with this bad behavior if I’m diligently taking notes at meetings simply because she always ends up sitting next to me?

    1. Imaginary Number*

      Two things. I wouldn’t jump to judge a coworker after just a few weeks, especially since you just started the job. Things like texting under the table at meetings might seem rude but could totally be par for the course depending on the workplace culture. For example, this sort of thing is very very common in my workplace just because people are often booked solid in meetings throughout the day. I would wait until you’ve been in the job long enough to see if her “not great work habits” actually translates into poor performance before deciding whether this is someone you don’t want to work with.

      The other thing I would say is that it’s really hard to judge if you’re being lumped together with your coworker all of the time because you both happen to be women, when there’s only four people on the team.

  224. Temporarily Anonymous*

    AAMers, is this a legitimate complaint or am I being a special snowflake?

    I’ve had a few situations recently where my supervisor has brought me into their office for a closed door reprimand when they aren’t properly informed about the incident. One reprimand I had was a genuine mistake, but nothing egregious and certainly not an uncommon mistake in my field. I acknowledged it and have taken steps to avoid making the same mistake. But for the rest of these reprimands, I was actually not at fault (someone else in the office dealt with the matter and made a mistake and I wasn’t involved, the problem they thought existed had actually not ever been an issue and they were misinformed, or similar).

    From my perspective these misunderstandings would have been so easily clarified if they had asked me anything about the matter before assuming I did something wrong and jumping into discipline mode. Since they did approach it this way, I feel like I’m stuck coming across as defensive when I explain the full situation and I’m worried that I’m being perceived as having made more mistakes than I really did. It doesn’t help that our workplace is dealing with some extra stresses (both political and workload) so everyone is on their last nerve and panicking over any hint of a problem.

    Should I be just lumping it and assume that a certain measure of unfair blame will get spread around in any office? Or should I be talking to my supervisor about the pattern? I’m not sure how to do that without sounding like a child complaining about fairness. I’ve rarely had to be reprimanded at work (and I’ve been in the working world for almost 2 decades) so this is really throwing me off my game.

    1. LCL*

      Speak up. You are right, there is a certain amount of unfair blame at work. Example-‘swing shift didn’t get the prep done’. Not worth arguing about. But if you are being personally targeted for something you didn’t do, you must speak up. Because if you don’t and the truth of the situation comes out, management could decide you must be guilty of something anyway and were keeping quiet to avoid scrutiny. This happened to me.

      1. Temporarily Anonymous*

        Thanks for replying LCL. To clarify, I did explain the situation in each case so there shouldn’t be any more misinformation in those past examples (the truth is already out), but I’m concerned that 1). my supervisor isn’t checking the facts before blaming and 2). that my supervisor will remember the calling into the office part more than the not really my mistake part.

        Re: speaking up, do you have any advice on how I’d appropriately address the problem? Like I said, I’m worried about being perceived as a whiny child (“you always blame me and it’s not my fault”) if I say something.

        1. Temporarily Anonymous*

          *if I say something about the overarching pattern. (As opposed to just explaining the specific misunderstanding each time, which doesn’t solve my larger blame issue).

        2. LCL*

          Counter this strictly with the facts.
          Boss-you didn’t wash all the dishes.
          You-I didn’t. I was prepping the salad, as instructed. Brand was scheduled as dish dog that day.

          Your supervisor isn’t checking the facts yet because it is easier and quicker to blame someone first. Set aside the part about worrying how you are perceived, that’s too complicated. Stick to the facts.

          It’s not your job to initiate a talk with your supervisor about their very real shortcomings. Odds are that won’t go well for you. It’s totally your job, when boss is blaming you for something you didn’t do, to draw their attention to the last 3 times they did this and ask them why.

    2. Wing Girl*

      Do you feel comfortable enough with your boss to bring it up at a time separate from when you’re being reprimanded, such as at a regular one-on-one meeting (assuming you have those types of check-in meetings)? Maybe bring it up as a question about your work quality and if there are places the boss feels need improvement. Mention the pattern you’ve noticed where conversations about issues tend to start with the assumption that the error was yours, when it reality x% were actually your mistake. That has made you wonder if there are areas the boss sees as areas that need work on your part. That you want to be sure you’re accomplishing the right goals and objectives before your next performance evaluation.

      It could be the boss doesn’t even realize she’s coming across in a way perceived as a reprimand and that isn’t her intention. Or it may be that she wants things done differently but hasn’t been explicit in conveying that to you. Discussing it at a different time could help clarify without you sounding defensive about a particular issue.

  225. Gracie*

    So I know this is really late but I’m hoping to get some thoughts on how to react to this. Someone I know works for company A and really hates it so he applied for company B. He was hired but it’s a little of a downgrade in pay and benefits so he’s not sure if he really wants it.

    His plan is to accept it and take a LOA from company A for two weeks and try our company B. If he likes it, he will quit A and go with B but if not he will quit B and go back to A.

    This seems so wrong to me. Either way he will be quitting one with no notice and I feel like he’s taking the job with company B under deceitful circumstances. Is there legal ramifications to this? Company A has a generous leave policy so that’s not an issue. He’s just gonna say personal reasons. Thoughts?

    1. Imaginary Number*

      Legal ramifications? The only things I can think of would be if the companies are competitors or if it’s an “unlimited” vacation policy. I work for a company that does the whole “unlimited” vacation thing (which is awful by the way and usually means you get less time off but that’s another story) and their policies are very clear that you can’t take it if you have no intention of coming back (and it would be very easy for Company A to prove that by showing he was working at another company.) That could be considered fraud (disclaimer: not a lawyer.)

      However, the obvious non-legal negative is the super high likelihood burn bridges with both companies if either of them find out. Either company would be completely reasonable in firing your acquaintance.

    2. Zis*

      I would say that if he hates working at Company A, he should accept the drop in pay and benefits. If he’s willing to consider returning to Company A then he’s not at that stage of his discontent, and there might be specific issues that could be addressed at Company A that would induce him to stay.

      Regarding legal ramifications? I wouldn’t think there’d be unless there’s a non-compete or something similar that would apply.

    3. Colette*

      He could easily lose both jobs. If company A finds out he’s working somewhere else, they can let him go. And if company B finds out he hasn’t quit, they can let him go.

      His best case scenario involves quitting company A with no notice.

      This is a really bad plan.

    4. Audiophile*

      I worked with someone who did something similar, he took a vacation, I remember correctly. During his vacation, he started his new job and then returned to his old job to resign, stating he was starting a new job and required to start immediately. While, it wasn’t a huge deal with my employer at the time, since we were all hourly drones, a few of us who worked with him did scratch our heads. It worked out well for him, he got a decent pay increase for the type of work that we did and a commute that was closer to where he lived.

      In your coworkers case it will really depend on if he is comfortable burning that bridge with your current employer. Depending on how long he’s worked there, he may be using them as a reference for quite a while and quitting without notice will likely be something they share when potential employers do reference checks down the line.

  226. Drew*

    Backstory: about a year ago, I applied for a job in another town. I wasn’t sure it would be a good fit, and the new town has a substantially higher COL than where I live now, so I wasn’t sure about taking the job, but I thought it would be good experience to interview for a new role where I would get to stretch a bit and wouldn’t be doing the same thing day after day as I am now.

    Didn’t even get an interview. Didn’t even get an acknowledgement that I had applied. It was SUPER discouraging.

    I happened to see on LI earlier this week that they had promoted an internal candidate into the role not long after I sent in my application. That explains that, I suppose. I’m still a little frustrated but I guess I have to chalk this up to “wrong place, wrong time.”

    1. Imaginary Number*

      If they promoted an internal candidate, it’s entirely possible you never even had a chance. They may have had that person in mind the entire time and were only posting it for regulatory reasons.

    2. Colette*

      Do you usually get interviews for every job you apply to? Because that’s almost unheard of. It’s really common for companies to have dozens (or hundreds) of applicants, and for them to interview only some of the people.

  227. Hoorah*

    We need to advertise a role in order to support a current employee’s work visa. We received five applications from a government agency. Because of this we HAVE to go through interviews and possibly work trials. We already know we’re going to reject every one of them because we’re only going through a mandatory process for immigration purposes. This is going to be such a pain in the butt waste of my time. I also feel bad for wasting their time in going through recruitment, but I have no way of telling them so.

    1. Temperance*

      So … that’s really not how the system is supposed to work. Work visas are only supposed to be issued when you can’t get someone with a work permit to do the job.

      2. Hoorah*

        We have a stellar employee where we invested a lot in training. There is no way we are letting this person go over a new person.

        1. Gadfly*

          Just because that is the law and the risk you take by hiring this way? Not feeling sorry for you.

  228. New to Freelancing*

    This is probably gonna be completely missed here, but:

    I’m sort of new to freelancing, and I’ve landed onto a project through a contact that is fairly sizable work-wise for now. I’m also separately working full time on an irregular schedule. I’m just wondering if anyone has any good sources for advice on carving out the time you need, finding more work, or other subjects.

    1. Gadfly*

      So, not quite the same, but I have found that using appropriate productivity apps and Chrome extensions and such to prevent me from doing things like reading years work of some random blog’s archives or being on Facebook or similar things have helped carve out the time for school. You have to play with a few to figure out which address your personal style of problem (like Productivity Owl is not for me but it works well for my former boss, StayFocused is far better for me) and if you find a good match, they do help.

  229. Gadfly*

    So, I know I’m probably out of luck, but I don’t suppose there is anyway to claim some credit for work you did but the final person in the process got all the awards for? I still find I’m a bit bitter about an example of that, and it is coming up again as I dust off my resume.

    Let’s say at the custom teapot factory, a client comes in and wants something very different with the teapot they are ordering, so it will stand out. As Assistant Teapot sales/orders, part of my job is to convey the customers wishes to the artist who will make the actual teapot. If possible, I am supposed to provide some direction (or even a very detailed list of instructions.) I happened to have a brilliant, out of the box, new and exciting idea that I took to the head of Sales, got approved, and then gave to the artist. The artist followed my idea, with freedom to choose the colors of spots and stuff like that. Later he wins a big industry prize for it, in the area of new and exciting innovative concepts, and I am told I should not care that I got no credit since it is an art prize and I am not an artist.

    I still sometimes feel bitter, however, and feel like I deserved some acknowledgement and that even though I am not an artist, it shows qualities for the positions I want to move into. Would there be a way to do something about that if it were to happen again in the future? Can I make reference to it when discussing my accomplishments or do I just sound petty?

    Just to be clear, I’m not saying the artist had no role (and the artist in question was amazing and did many wonderful things). Just what the teapot won for was my contribution to it and his ability to do what I designed, not just his artistic talent.

    1. Buu*

      Put it as a positive bullet point on your resume but don’t let your feelings about the credit show through, if asked you’re really happy that the project won an award e..g
      * Suggested a new direction for teapot design for which the artist went on to win teapot innovator of the year award.

      The way that’s spun is 1) you have good ideas 2) your good ideas help your whole team and company on to do well. I am sure it could be worded better, but I think that’s the good tactic.

  230. Tempest*

    So late to the party this week but I have been offered both jobs from last week’s post. So I am now ducking the calls of the recruiter from job one as I only found out this morning I’ve been offered the other job. I will reflect on my choices this weekend and firmly commit to one on Monday, but having met people from the ‘cooler’ company due to the quality of life that would also give me around work that’s the way I’m leaning. They’re taking the time to find the right manager for the job and they really seem to know what they’re doing so I’m hopeful.

  231. Okie Not From Muskogee*

    What do you do with a supervisor who doesn’t respond to emails?

    I’m a third-shift worker with no on-site supervisor during my shift – as a matter of fact, when I work, I’m the highest ranking employee. My boss works a normal “day shift” and so we see one another in passing occasionally. Most comminucation is via email. There are regular reports that are sent up, through email or departmental mail.

    Occasionally something will come up that requires a notification or question, which I put to him via email. He never responds. When I follow up (usually by forwarding the original email with a “Was there any response/did I miss your reply?”), he will respond about 50% of the time with “Oh, I didn’t get back to you?” AND THATS IT. Still no response, still no info, still no feedback.

    I’ve been continuing to go about my work as normal, figuring that if anything blows back, I’ve got the email trail as protection. However, it’s still incredibly frustrating. Any tips? Just keep on going?

    Thanks!

    1. LawCat*

      Does he respond better to voice messages? Can you send a voicemail instead? You can keep a log of your messages. If it’s something complex, a brief voicemail including message that you’ll email additional details.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Tell him what you plan to do. Sign off with a cheery ‘let me know if you want me to do something different.’ And keep all emails as documentation.

  232. Job Seeker*

    A recruiter was excited about me but emailed that the company had already been sent my resume, so she could not help me further. So… should I contact company’s HR to make sure I’m still in the running, even without the recruiter?

  233. BeetsBearsBattlestargalactica*

    I’m working for a new company. I’ve only been there two and a half months but it’s become very evident that my boss is a control freak and very particular. I will absolutely strive to learn to do things the very particular way she wants them done but I perform poorly when I feel I’m being judged. I haven’t been performing as well as I know I can and I’m thinking of discussing this with her. She’s approachable, just very firm in her ways. I feel my work life will can only get worse if I don’t address it somehow. Any advice? Tips or tricks?

    1. Audiophile*

      In the past, I’ve approached things like this head-on. Basically, I’ll say some variation of “you know when you ask me to come chat, it makes me nervous. Without context, I think I’m in trouble or that you’re angry with me.” This has helped sometimes, though I’ve usually had to repeat it a few times. Other times, I’ll just ask for clarification or context and that helps ease my nerves.

      If you know she wants something done a particular way, I’d definitely ask for clarification before leaving the meeting. Say something like, “just so I know I understood you, you want this done in order of A, B, and then C?”

  234. delta nu*

    A few years ago, I decided to leave Teapot Design to go back to school to complete the undergrad classes I needed to apply to medical school (applying during the 2018 cycle). I finished my post-bacc undergrad classes last Spring and am now in grad school- the program is completely and utterly unrelated to Teapot Design. I am hoping to graduate in Spring 2018, but there aren’t enough classes being offered in Fall to allow me to be a full-time student. Consequently, I’m looking for full-time work; there are no job listings whatsoever in the field of my graduate degree and other health care related positions are terribly underpaid. I have been doing freelance Teapot Design from home as my part-time job and, while perusing job listings, I have found several great FT Teapot Design positions. I would like to apply to these jobs, but I’m unsure how to handle my time spent in school. Technically, there has never been a break in my Teapot Designing- I just went from FT at a Teapot Design Agency to becoming a PT Teapot Design freelancer. Do I leave off the school work entirely? Mention the grad school and be candid about the lack of positions? Say that my graduate school experience made me realize how much I missed the creativity in Teapot Design?

  235. Spacecadet51*

    Advice needed….I am currently supporting activities for a project related event. Every time we meet, they seem to be all over the place and not getting anywhere. The “owner” of the meeting tends to be out of the office often, so she’s not up to speed. She then comes in and changes what’s already been handled. My office manager is not a strong lead and tries to take over, but ends up making a mess. She doesn’t want to do the work, just wants to control things. The event is at the end of April and there are things that need to get done. I don’t want to wait until the last minute to get the things done.

    As the assistant, what can I say or do to hopefully get things back on task? When we have the meeting, can I mention that we are at -30 days, let them know what I action items I can take over to get things moving? Often they have me help with coordinating and they’re making this hard when it isn’t. Is there anything I can do to get them back on task or do I just watch it play out?

  236. Anonomouse*

    After a few months of looking, I finally got a new job! It’s an admin type role. My first day was yesterday(Friday) and it went great. The people there are really friendly and it has a laid back culture. I’m excited to go back on Monday.

  237. Theo*

    im 2 years college graduate in science.
    posted here before

    can i leave off college to apply to jobs in retail and food service to increase chance to be hired? i need mor ehours and money and i feel a lil bleak looking for a job with my degree rn lol

    1. Chaordic One*

      Yeah, you can do that. Sometimes some employers have unfortunate ideas about college students. They might think that you’re overqualified and going to quit right away. (But people don’t usually stay all that long in retail and food service anyway.)

      Years ago, when in a similar situation, I left off the fact that I was a college student. Back in the big recession of 2008, most retail and food service jobs I was applying for wanted you to be available to fill in 24/7 and were completely inflexible about it.

      After getting no where with them, I started omitting my being a college student on my resume. I promptly got hired, and was able to work for 6 months before I ever had a scheduling conflict between school and work. I ended up calling in sick at work and it wasn’t a big deal. Later I was able to move on to a better job where they had regular hours and there wasn’t a conflict with school.

  238. Mona Lisa*

    Super late, but I have a question that I’m hoping someone might be able to answer for me. In my previous two jobs I worked with a particular CRM pretty closely, but in my current job, though I’ve been advocating for it to be implemented, it’s likely that it won’t be before I leave. I’m starting to look at other job openings now that my husband is finishing his doctorate, and I found one that relates back to the work I did with the CRM. On my resume, should I keep my work history in chronological order as it is right now, or should I create two sections (“relevant experience” and “other experience”) to get the most relevant information to the top of the page?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

  239. EddieSherbert*

    So coming to the party way late…. but I mentioned a couple weeks ago that my one coworker has been sick for several weeks and insists on coming in. And thinks it’s a big joke when you tell her not to (we can WFH).

    ….well today she brought in a neti pot. And it’s sitting on top of her cabinet at her cube (visible above the half cube wall. The three of us that share her “cube pod” mention it was gross and asked her to put it away and she turned it into a joke as well (that went to “maybe I should leave my tampons out too! The used ones!).

    So. Fun.

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