open thread – March 3-4, 2017

by Alison Green on March 3, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. Letter of Recommendation*

    I had a former professor ask that I be a reference for her as she is nominated for full professorship. I was really excited for her and for the opportunity to help her out because she was a total game-changer for me in college. I’ve written the letter and I’m ready to submit it; if I get permission from the school, would it be weird to share it with her? She won’t otherwise see it but I’d really like to share it since I don’t know if she realizes what an impact she had on me.

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      That’s such a nice sentiment! I’d definitely ask the school if it’s okay first, like you mentioned, but I think this is a good idea. I imagine there aren’t that many opportunities where professors get non-anonymous feedback from a particular student, so I bet she’d really appreciate this.

    2. Dang*

      I don’t think it would be weird- wouldn’t we all love to see what these recommendation letters say?? I think that’s awesome.

    3. Morning Glory*

      Every time I’ve asked someone for a letter of recommendation, I’ve been dying to know what they wrote about me. A few people have shared them with me in advance to make sure I was ok with what they wrote, which I really appreciated (not saying do it here, it depends on the rules).

      I think it would be really nice of you to share your words with her if you’re allowed to.

    4. Letter of Recommendation*

      Thanks everyone! I just submitted the letter and indicated I’d be interested in sharing with the subject if there are no objections. :)

    5. SophieChotek*

      I would think the prof would be pleased. Sometimes when you submit the forms there is a place to check (i.e. can be shared with person for whom recommendation is being written); I think I’ve been asked to write 2 or 3 of these over the course of my college years and I always checked “yes” for the same reason you are thinking. Congrats on being asked!

    6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      You can def share it with her! I was asked to provide letters in support of a prof who was up for tenure and another up for a university-wide teaching award. I sent them copies after the close of the submission period, and it prpboddd a much needed morale boost to the one up for tenure. I say go for it!

    7. Dr. Doll*

      By all means share! She’d love to see it, and she will eventually since she should have access to her promotion file.

    8. DL*

      Definitely wait for the go ahead from the institution. Faculty usually have to sign a form waiving permission to view recommendation letters that go into their promotion package. Some places they can view the letter after the promotion decision is made with the letter writer’s name removed.

    9. C Average*

      Show her!

      When I was in high school, a beloved English teacher wrote me a letter of recommendation for a college application and provided me with a copy. It was a particularly low point in my life–I wasn’t one of the cool kids and I didn’t know what I was going to do with my life at all–and his kind words were balm to my soul. I still have that letter.

      1. Me2*

        Same for my son, the letter gave him such a boost at a time when he really needed it. And it was lovely, as a parent, to hear about how my son was seen by other adults in his life.

    10. SanguineAspect*

      Yes! Do that! I had professors share copies of the letters of recommendation they wrote for me when I was applying to grad schools and I still keep copies of them. What they said was extremely meaningful for me at the time and I’m still very grateful. I’m sure she would appreciate it.

    11. AnotherLibrarian*

      Do check with the school. Some tenure processes require closed letters of Rec and it could disqualify the letter if you share it without checking.

  2. no-shrubs*

    What do you do when you realise that your current job seems to be damaging your career? I joined an government sector office half a year ago, and so far the office, the hours and the work are all the best I experienced. Sadly, I am on a contract basis, so I am also low key on the lookout for future opportunities when my current one stops in 3 years time.
    Problem is, the project I am working on seems to be ruffling more and more feathers of other offices. It’s a large proposal for community improvenment. Meaningful work.
    But as we developed the project, I noticed a lot of letters from other offices demanding to know why we are stepping on their turf. The emails are getting quite angry and defensive. Now, the larger decision of who handles what project is beyond my pay grade. But I am legitimately getting worried than when my contract ends, none of these numerous agencies are going to hire me because I have this feather ruffling project on my resume.
    Do you guys think I am just thinking too much? I should just focus on working hard and not worry that much about the future?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I’d look around to see if there was anything I could do to soothe ruffled feathers. Typically I find the problem is erroneous information or incomplete information that has led to speculation and the speculation is causing upset. I will act if I can do so without turning myself into a target.

      Another strategy you might try is having one-on-one conversations with people. I do this when I can figure out who I want to talk with and what my exact message is.

      Above all else. remain professional and remain open to conversations. I have seen people vehemently disagree with each other and yet still walk away from the conversation with admiration for the other person, even though there is strong disagreement. Grace under fire. People remember that.

    2. Pup Seal*

      I understand your concerns. If your contract doesn’t end until 3 years and if this is the only project ruffling feathers, then I don’t think it will have too much of a negative impact on you and your job search. If this office continues to implement more projects that upset the other offices then I think that’s the time to worry.

    3. Creag an Tuire*

      I can sort of identify with this issue. I think the trick is, to the extent that you interact with these other offices, is to smile and welcome their input (even if you’re later going to ignore their input as much as feasible). Basically, “I know there’s some jurisdictional stuff going on above my paygrade, but for now this is the job I was asked to do so I’m trying to do it well. It sounds like you have some experience with Teapot Administration, maybe I could ask you a couple of questions if you have time?”

      This won’t help you with the truly defensive turf-hoarders (but nothing will), but will make you look good to the people who actually care about the job being done well, and will smooth the feathers of the people who don’t care much who does the actual work as long as they are recognized as The Teapot Administration Expert (and there are quite a few of those, especially in organizations where you have a lot of long-time employees).

      1. Whats In A Name*

        This exactly. These things come with the territory sometimes and if you remain professional in your approach but recognize there are some struggles beyond your control it can really help.

        I have seen people successfully apply for and receive positions in departments that were basically at war with their current department. They were considered as an individual and quite honestly no one ever really pitted again one person (well, with the excepetion of the department VP) when we would have these turf wars, it was more department v. department if that makes sense.

      2. Onnellinen*

        To piggy back on this, being a good person to work with on difficult projects can actually go a long ways to building your career and your reputation – if you are pleasant, professional, and as collaborative as you can be in working with stakeholders, people will remember that. Think of all the interview questions about working in a challenging environment, or executing an unpopular idea, etc.

    4. Jbelly*

      I think this would only have a negative impact on you if the other agencies/offices believe that the project staff were incompentent or difficult to work with or routinely put out flawed products. You’ll still have to get through HR before this becomes a potential issue.

    5. no-shrubs*

      Thank you guys SO MUCH! I was so worried I got myself stuck in a rock and a hard place with my job. All these advice really allayed my fears! Thanks Not So NewReader, Pup Seal, Creag an Tuire and Jbelly, I’ll try my best to proceed forward as a calm professional :)

      1. Anon42*

        Yeah it comes with the territory. I work for elected officials in government and we ruffle write a few feathers with projects outsole don’t like. And they ruffle ours. At the end of the day no one thinks too much about it once 5pm rolls around. It’s a job. People get that.

    6. No Name Worker Bee*

      I’m in a similar spot. I took a job out of college with a government office that isn’t seen in the best light. many friends and coworkers of my parents who had dealings with that office were surprised to hear I was working there. I didn’t think much of it until I’ve started job searching to leave this government job. No interviewere has said anything specifically against the office but I haven’t had any luck with an offer and I’m starting to wonder if the place is tainting my resume for the worst.

    7. Two Cents*

      I think you might be ovethinking this one. You say the decision-making is above your pay grade now. If it will continue to be above your pay grade for the next three years, then I don’t think you need to worry about this.

      People understand how government works, even when they don’t agree with what it does. Future hiring managers will understand that you’re a junior person just doing your job as best you can, and will point their anger at senior decision-makers and whoever sets the over-arching policy.

      Lingering ruffled feathers might still make for some awkward moments in interviews, but I think you can handle that with a graceful non-answer. Something like: “People don’t always agree with every policy or decision government makes, but I always did my best to do my work as professionally as I could” (but more tailored to your situation.) And then quickly turn the conversation back to your job performance and skills by following up with a specific example of Great Thing You Did To Solve That Problem

  3. guy with no name*

    I live in a state where weed is illegal. There are also no specific laws about drug tests at work, so employers are free to run any drug test program however they want. My work doesn’t test at hiring but does random drug tests. I’ve worked here for almost 2 years. This morning I got told I have been selected for one so I get paid leave to leave work an hour early so I can go to the lab for a test before I go home. Here’s the thing…I smoke weed every day. When I get home from work or home for the day and again before bed. Like I said weed is illegal here and it’s on the list of banned substances from my work. Failing the test means I will be fired on the spot. So does missing or skipping the test for any reason short of life or death like getting hit by a car. I know I will fail. Medical weed is not a thing in my state and possession or using weed for any reason means court and likely jail time. They don’t divert the charges or have probation or anything like that. Given all this I’m not sure if I should quit today or let myself fail the test (which I know I will, I have smoked twice a day at least for years now) and get fired. I don’t know what I should do. I can’t ask my work to change the date, they don’t let that be done

    1. TL -*

      If you have a good relationship with your supervisor, you can come clean and just ask her. Do you know what they’re testing for specifically? Some places don’t test for weed.

      1. guy with no name*

        Weed is on the list of banned substances and they definitely test for it. Other people before me have been fired when the test showed they used weed.

    2. Anon For This*

      I recommend you quit. This came in recent conversations with friends in careers that are at risk. If you quit, they can’t say you were fired for cause and they can’t tell future employers that you failed a drug test since you didn’t take it. Thus, its not on your record.

        1. Morning Glory*

          But being fired on the spot and maybe going to jail wouldn’t? It a bad situation all-around.

          1. namelesscommentater*

            I can’t imagine that jail would be on the table.

            My understanding of drug laws is that growing/possession/distribution is illegal. But the act of being under the influence is not unless you’re operating machinery while under the influence.

            1. Morning Glory*

              Yea, to be honest I’ve never heard of it, but guy with no name said:

              “Medical weed is not a thing in my state and possession or using weed for any reason means court and likely jail time. ”

              And I imagine he knows his state best

              1. Natalie*

                Failing a drug test isn’t the same thing as possession, legally. Unless he is on probation, I don’t think there’s any way he could be prosecuted on the basis of a urinalysis screen.

            1. Morning Glory*

              Yeah, sorry everyone – I misread the part about jail in the original post I think.

      3. JennyFair*

        I’m not sure this is accurate. We drug test, and if you fail to show up for the test within half an hour, it’s an automatic fail.

    3. Blue*

      Is it 100% for sure you’ll be fired if you test positive? Could you talk to your boss ahead of time and offer to quit in exchange for a positive reference and no mention of the scheduled drug test to future employers?

      1. guy with no name*

        For sure 100%. My supervisor is anti-weed in her personal life, I saw a picture on the news when people were fighting against the push to legalize here. No way she wouldn’t flip out if I asked her that.

        1. TL -*

          Hmm. That would be the best option – if you could let her know and say you’ll be resigning in advance of the test. But if she’s strongly anti-weed, you’re just going to have to let her know you’ll be resigning.

          You might burn the reference anyways, if you have to resign with a notice period and they’re expecting one.

        2. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Ouch, that sucks. I just want to add that there’s a possibility, probably remote, that she might just be following the propaganda she hears against it, and she might believe that people who smoke the Devil’s Weed all turn into horrible people upon the first toke. If that’s the case AND you’re a valued, respected employee, admitting that you smoke on your own time, never at or just before work, might change her mind.

          It might not be worth the risk, but you’re the only one in a position to determine that.

          Otherwise, I agree with the rest of the advice to quit first, as that is probably the least harmful option you have.

        3. Bend & Snap*

          Maybe a quick consult with a lawyer to determine your best course? I’m sorry you’re in this position. It’s ridiculous.

          1. Whats In A Name*

            No matter what your stance on legalized marijuana, he is in direct violation of the employee substance policy.

            I feel bad for his situation but I don’t know that it’s ridiculous – break the rules, accept the consequences.

            Hopefully there is a way for him to talk with his supervisor, let her know he expects to fail and ask if he can do some sort of probationary period or voluntarily quit.

          2. Whats In A Name*

            My last comment seems to have gotten lost so sorry if it ends up showing up twice.

            Regardless of your stance on legalizing weed, he is in clear violation of his company’s substance policy. Break the rules = handle consequence.

            I do empathize, though. Hopefully OP can talk with supervisor and let them know they expect to fail. Then perhaps see if there is an option to go on a probation period. And if not if he could voluntarily quit.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If you quit, they will likely deduce that you did so because you knew you would fail the drug test. However, it won’t be part of your employment record. Either way, you’re going to have to explain why you left to a future employer, so you should think about how you can best do that with your options.

      What kind of work do you do? Are you putting yourself or others at risk by operating equipment when you could potentially be in an altered state?

      1. Rat in the Sugar*

        If he’s only smoking after work, he can’t be in an altered state during the day; weed doesn’t start in your system that long.

        Also, it sounds like you (guy with no name) might be worried about getting arrested as a result of the test? IANAL, but I’m pretty sure that’s not something that’s going to happen. I have never heard of it, anyway, and I also live in a state that takes a hard line on weed.

        I second the suggestion to come clean to your supervisor (if you have a good relationship with then, you’re the best judge of that) and unfortunately it might make sense to resign on the spot to save your record. You can always get through interviews by focusing on your desire to work at your new company instead of focusing on why you left your old one.

        Good luck.

        1. Manders*

          Yes, the kinds of drug tests that employees usually have to take don’t measure whether you’re actually high, just whether certain chemicals are present in your urine or hair. I think heavy users can test positive over a month after quitting.

          I’m sorry you have to go through this, Guy. I think quitting might be your best option here.

          1. TL -*

            Before I had to take a drug test (urine) for my first job, they let me know they tested for weed and it took about 2 weeks to get it out of my system. They let me know about 2 weeks from when the test was scheduled and very clearly stated a few times how long it would take. (They didn’t mention any other drug.)

            Hair tests go back much longer, though.

      2. guy with no name*

        No I work in an office. We keep records and receipts of all the products and stuff that the people in sales sell. I only smoke weed once I am home from work and home for the day and I never would drive or anything after I smoke it.

        1. guy with no name*

          And my supervisor is anti-weed in her personal life and the test is in about 4 hours, so I can’t talk to her about why. If I quit it would have to be today without notice.

          1. Cambridge Comma*

            What if you don’t go to the test, but still offer to work your two weeks? Their choice if they let you, but then you didn’t leave without notice.

              1. tigerlily*

                I think she’s saying resign now and let them know why (because you know you won’t pass the drug test), and still offer to work the two weeks. That way you didn’t just no-show the test AND you’re not quitting with no notice. Even if they tell you not to come back, you still gave notice.

                3. tigerlily*

                  But if you’ve already resigned for smoking pot, they can’t turn that into firing you for smoking pot. They can tell you that they don’t won’t you to finish out those two weeks you’re offering, but that’s not the same thing as firing you nor is it the same thing as you quitting without notice. You’ve already resigned.

                  And also, I read further down the thread, and I second the suggestion of resigning due to not agreeing with random drug tests instead of because you may fail.

                  Good luck with everything.

          2. Chameleon*

            Dishonesty is rarely a good idea, but it may be one here. Perhaps a family emergency is going to take up all of your working hours for the forseeable future?

            (There’s a pretty good chance your boss will see right through this; whether it would make things better to have a thin veneer of plausible deniability or worse to have an obvious lie is really your call based on your knowledge and relationship with your boss).

            1. Lefty*

              There’s also the chance that the company reserves X amount of testing for the month and would just require this employee to go on Monday of next week. In a previous job, I arranged such a set up with a local collection facility- we could send up to 4 employees (or prospective employees) for testing during any of their business hours per month for a set fee. If we had someone skip a test, it was often just days before they would be given another appointment… OP here wouldn’t benefit from that short timeframe, but maybe could buy some time to think.

              1. mreasy*

                OP could benefit from that timeframe! I assume they are sold in head shops (not sure) – but you can buy effective 24-hour cleanses that can allow you to pass a drug test when you’ve smoked marijuana in the last 2 weeks. I assume that’s why job isn’t giving 24 hour notice. (I know these are real because I dated & was friends with a lot of bike messengers in my 20s, and they all used these cleanses.)

            2. Lefty*

              There’s also the chance that the company reserves X amount of testing for the month and would just require this employee to go on Monday of next week in the case of an emergency today. In a previous job, I arranged such a set up with a local collection facility- we could send up to 4 employees (or prospective employees) for testing during any of their business hours per month for a set fee. If we had someone skip a test, it was often just days before they would be given another appointment… OP here wouldn’t benefit from that short timeframe, but maybe could buy some time to think.

          3. GigglyPuff*

            How is your relationship with your supervisor otherwise? Do you know how anti-weed she is? To be perfectly honest I have anti-weed leanings but I don’t hold it against other people.

            I think if you know your supervisor pretty well and they would react badly, go with the suggestion of someone below, that you object to the invasion of privacy reason.

            1. guy with no name*

              She campaigned against weed and medical use of weed when some people pushed to make it legal here. She was on the news protesting so she is definitely against it.

          4. Gaia*

            Have you considered telling her you’ve decided to quit because you object to their practice of drug testing and offering to work 2 weeks but you understand if they can’t since you won’t be willing to test?

            1. Blueismyfavorite*

              I agree. I think he should say he’s quitting because he objects to drug testing as an invasion of his privacy.

        2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

          “guy with no name” if you quit you could tell her it is because you are opposed to drug screens without merit. Random drug screens for positions that don’t operate machinery and without cause are invasive and in my opinion should not be used to make employment decisions. Offer to work 2 weeks, but tell her you won’t take it due to your beliefs regarding drug testing.

          1. Lurker*

            +1 I could see this going across better than just quitting. Based on your other comments, you are probably screwed either way, but having a “moral opposition” is probably better as far as your standing goes.

          2. Lynxa*

            Another +1! I like this option. Make it about a moral opposition to a test that doesn’t make sense (particularly in light of how long weed can stay in your system). It’s an invasion of privacy, and doesn’t tell the employer anything useful beyond what you do in your downtime.

            I’m wondering if she knew you were pro-weed and that’s why this “random” test came up on you.

            1. Detective Amy Santiago*

              He’s been there almost 2 years. It sounds like he was probably lucky this didn’t happen sooner.

          4. Whats In A Name*

            But the thing is he’s been there for 2 years and never voiced concern before. He knows they do this testing. And he chose to violate the rules (and technically the law).

            1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

              I have worked at places where they “reserve the right to randomly drug test” and didn’t ever, so he could have taken the job thinking that. He might not have had a problem when hired but his views changed. He doesn’t get to not have this opinion just because he accepted a job where it happens.

              1. AnonAnalyst*

                Plus, I would never think that part of a company’s random drug test policy would be requiring a hair and blood test. I think random drug testing for regular office jobs is silly anyway… but I’ve only ever heard of employers requiring urine tests for that. I think there’s probably a decent percentage of people who are willing to submit to a urine test but would object to the hair and blood test.

          5. stk*

            This is what I’d be doing if I were you, guy. They’ll probably guess anyway – you’ll have burned a bunch of bridges at this job I think – but “I have realised I can’t in good conscience go along with the drug testing policy, I believe testing people in positions where they aren’t operating machinery is unethical, and I am therefore handing in my notice” is both kind of true and much more palatable in terms of a public story.

    5. Newby*

      If you know that you are being tested for weed and know that you will fail and be fired, I would quit before anyone has a record of that.

    6. AnonAnonAnonA BATMAN!*

      Yeah…probably best if you resign. Your employer will definitely speculate, but at least this way there won’t be solid proof. You may also want to either change your habits (not a judgement, just a suggestion) or look for workplaces where testing isn’t likely to be done. I work in an office and I don’t think my employer chooses to drug test at all.

      1. Bend & Snap*

        I was drug tested as part of my background test for my current job, but they eliminated that shortly afterward and they don’t screen current employees.

        I don’t smoke, but what you do on your own time is and should remain your own business. This is so invasive.

    7. Lillian Styx*

      Are you morally opposed to cheating the test? I wouldn’t be. Just make sure to do your research before you go in, there are lots of ways to get caught out.

            1. Trout 'Waver*

              He took a job that’s fundamentally incompatible with his lifestyle and now is trying to cover it up and cheat the test. I think attempting to cheat the test is unlikely to improve the situation and most likely make things worse.

          2. Whats In A Name*

            I agree with this; Guy I really think you have to come clean with supervisor or just quit. There is no in-between with this one I don’t think.

        2. Rat in the Sugar*

          You can’t, really. I’m sorry; I can’t think of any suggestions that would end in you keeping your job.

        3. TL -*

          I honestly wouldn’t go that route – a hasty effort to cheat is going to reflect much worse on you than either a positive drug test or a resignation beforehand.

          You could also try a “I’ve been smoking and am going to start counseling, can I have some unpaid leave and come back to my job after a clean drug test?” conversation before you resign (and still don’t test!) if you think your boss would be open to that route and you think that’s it’s realistic that you stop smoking weed.

          1. guy with no name*

            I wish but the second I admit it I’ll get fired. They don’t give second chances if they find out people use drugs or fail a drug test.

            1. TL -*

              I’m sorry. I think a resignation is your best bet, then. You can tell them why you’re resigning or not; you can refuse the drug test and offer to work out your two weeks after refusing.
              I think you’re looking at both a lost job and a potentially burned reference. “He resigned on the spot” is maybe a better reference than “he had a positive drug test.” It might depend on where you are – in Austin, a positive drug test would probably make people think pot, but in Boston, it would make people think heroin.

              1. guy with no name*

                Thanks. I wouldn’t be allowed to work after I refused, they would just fire me on the spot. I’m thinking I might just have to quit today.

                1. Sabine the Very Mean*

                  Oh how terrible. I worked in the ski industry for years. It was simply not possible to expect people to pass. Ugh…If it is a saliva swab, it only detects 12 hours so you may be okay there. Niacin can help. If it is a UA, I’m scared for you. “You could do a stinger” found at many head shops. I wish it didn’t have such terrible connotations to it. I suffer from insomnia (sleep maybe 15 hours per week) and I can’t tell you how many docs think I should try serious pharma over MJ.

                2. AnitaJ*

                  I think TL’s advice is good. In my opinion, if you are fired for refusing a drug test, that might not be a HUGE obstacle in terms of finding new employment. Many people refuse drug tests on principle, not because they’d fail. Who’s to say you aren’t one of those people? You never know when you’ll come across a supervisor or a company that agrees with or at least respects your decision to refuse to test. Good luck, whatever happens.

                3. k*

                  In an attempt to save the reference, you could tell them you were planning to give notice anyways due to whatever reason, and the announcement of the drug test made yo think to do it now. You didn’t want to waste all that time on the test, /waste company money on the test since you’re leaving soon, or you are afraid of needles and don’t want to take a test for a job you’re leaving anyways. They again may see through it, but it’s possible to save a little face that way.

                4. MWKate*

                  There have been some suggestions about telling them you refuse to take the test based on your personal belief that it is an unlawful search and without cause. The end result is the same, but you could possibility swing it in a more positive light when applying for other jobs in the future.

              2. Bostonian*

                Really? Pot is legal here, and I smell it most times I go out in public… why heroin?

                1. TL -*

                  Yup. So most people in Boston would assume you’re not being tested for pot (if you’re not working for the feds) and the other drug that is strongly associated with the Boston area is opioids. Why would you be tested for a legal substance in Boston? I’m going to think that’s it’s a much harder drug and I’m probably going to think heroin because that’s what’s getting press in Boston.

                  Whereas in Austin, pot is not legal but really common, so jobs do test for it and a positive drug test would make me think of the most common legal drug – pot.

                4. Windchime*

                  Yeah, I work in downtown Seattle and I smell it most days when I am walking outside (we were one of the first states to make it legal). Several times I have seen people openly smoking in public (not really supposed to do that, but hey whatever). The place I used to work has started doing random drug tests, but my current employer is really liberal and they don’t test at all. Several people in my department are very open about their pot smoking habits.

                  It’s really weird to me that alcohol is perfectly legal and pot isn’t (in most states). Very strange.

            2. Mimi*

              I mean, if you knew this about your employer, you knew the risk you were taking, correct? You knew there was the possibility of a random drug test in your future.

              So yeah, I think the best option here is to quit.

        4. Anonny*

          My SIL occasionally smokes, and she just drinks a lot of water (like a ton) and doesn’t eat, before the test.

          If you drink a lot of water, it might dilute the test. Most tests show a certain “level” to be a positive result. If you dilute your sample with all that water, it may not show to the positive threshold.

          1. TL -*

            I would imagine that there’s a huge difference in the baseline amount for an occasional smoker and a daily user. This is less likely to work.

          2. KL*

            In most cases, the testing center can tell you did this. If sample is too dilute, they can call for a re-test.

          3. guy with no name*

            They’ll take a hair and blood sample too. I smoke way more than your SIL and I only have a few hours until I have to go.

            1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

              Hair and blood? This is absurdly invasive. I would quit for that reason alone, and I don’t do drugs. No way my employer gets access to my body parts and bodily fluids for no reason than a ridiculous witch hunt for drug users

              1. I am a tailors apprentice*

                Agreed! This is an office job, right? You’re not directing plane traffic or operating heavy machinery? I don’t see why they need to test…nevermind use blood, hair and urine.

                1. RVA Cat*

                  This. The unnecessarily invasive test gives you reason to quit on the spot. It’s also something to tell HR during your exit interview. Your anti-drug-crusading supervisor is driving employees away.

              2. The OG Anonsie*

                Yeah, I’m a ridiculous straight-edge nerd about drugs and I would not submit to testing like this from an employer. It’s invasive and frankly offensive that they think they have the right to ask me to have blood drawn and a big chunk of my hair cut out at the scalp for an office job like this. Nuh uh.

                1. blackcat*

                  +1 No one is taking off a chunk of my hair *at the scalp* without a good, medical reason (eg I’m sick and they can test for something odd in hair) or without a court order.

                  I don’t do drugs. I hardly drink alcohol at all. And I would not submit to this test.

                2. AnonAnalyst*

                  Yeah, just… what? That is way too much to ask for for a random drug test, especially for an office job. I believe “offensive” is the right word to use here. (And contrary to the push back that this sometimes gets from employers, no, I don’t have anything to hide – this is just completely unreasonable to ask of your employees.)

              3. Detective Amy Santiago*

                Yeah, if you’re not operating heavy machinery or dealing with super sensitive information, this is way, way over the top.

            2. MWKate*

              Hair and blood? That is incredibly invasive. I think saying you are morally opposed is completely within reason given what they are asking for.

            3. Lynxa*

              Hair, urine AND blood? I don’t even do illegal drugs and there’s no way I’d let someone open my vein just to check. This is highly invasive.

              I’d also rather my employer not have any sort of access to what medications I’ve been prescribed.

              1. Susie*

                Those tests only show what the lab or employer is looking for. They don’t show every drug that you take.

                1. Lynxa*

                  At every drug test I’ve taken I have had to provide a list of current medications (I am also taking a prescribed benzo and a stimulant that are both things generally tested for)

            4. Hrovitnir*

              Wooooow, I agree this is absurdly invasive (I’m opposed to drug test for moralistic reasons vs safety reasons anyway, but blood and hair? WTactualF?)

              Anyway, pretty sure that THC stays in your system an absurd amount of time regardless, it sucks. I’m sorry. I hope you manage to leave without too much drama and get another job quickly. :/

            5. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

              Blood and hair and urine tests? And they don’t reschedule tests, fire you on the spot if you don’t pass, and will also fire you on the spot if you don’t or can’t make it to the test? Good Lord, what a terrible, invasive policy. I’m sorry, OP, I think quitting is your best option here. (I don’t know your state but I’m guessing you wouldn’t be eligible for unemployment benefits if you get fired for failing a drug test. Is that the case?)

              I wonder what happens to people at this company who take things like Adderall or other controlled substances – perfectly legal when prescribed by a doctor, but almost certainly on the list of drugs they’d screen for. Would they get fired instantly or is there some leeway if they can show a doctor’s note or prescription to prove it’s on the up-and-up? (And that would also be invasive!)

              1. Coalea*

                I can’t say what goes on at the OP’s company, but I used to work for a company who performed independent third-party reviews of drug screens done for some government agencies. Employees who came back with certain positive tests (amphetamines, opioids) were given the opportunity to submit a prescription to explain their results.

              2. SarahTheEntwife*

                Yeah, I’m super up-front with my boss about taking Adderall because she’s awesome and has the sensible attitude that this is a sign of me being responsible and taking the steps I find most useful to be productive, but I shouldn’t have to disclose medical information to prove I’m not doing anything illegal. Same if I was, say, recovering from surgery and still on opiates (which yeah, I shouldn’t be taking if I’m a forklift operator but I don’t even drive outside of work anyway).

            6. Gaia*

              That is absurdly invasive and I would quit on that basis. It is a violation of your privacy

        5. Lillian Styx*

          Get some clean pee in a smallish bottle (but make sure it’s big enough for a sample). Make sure it stays body temp–on the dashboard with the heat blasting works. Hide the bottle on your person and hope they don’t pat you down too thoroughly or watch you produce the sample.

          And of course realize you are doing this at the risk of losing your job and your credibility with your employer.

          1. AndersonDarling*

            I have friends who smoke and this is the method they use. It’s pretty much routine for them. If you chose to cheat, you can get away with it as long as you don’t freak out or make a crazy mistake. But you have to decide if that is the route you want to take.

            1. Clever Name*

              I’ve also heard stories of places that make you give the sample with the door open (but I also heard they only do this with men). Weird and invasive.

            2. Sabine the Very Mean*

              Oh jeez..I didn’t see this before commenting before. Yep, may have to quit :-(

            1. Detective Amy Santiago*

              Because cheating and dishonesty only make things worse.

              guy with no name was obviously aware that this job did random drug testing and made his choices.

              1. Lillian Styx*

                While I agree he knew the risks, I don’t see how getting caught cheating is worse than getting caught with MJ in his system when the result is the same.

                1. TL -*

                  Because, “We caught him trying to cheat on a drug test,” is a much, much worse reference than “He had a positive drug test for marijuana.” or “He resigned on the spot.”

              2. Sas*

                If you really work at the job you say you do, you tow an impossibly line. People are people. Learn about that.

        7. nameless*

          I feel like I’m going to be in the minority here, but stop at a head shop on your way to the testing facility and ask them for help. There are ways of cheating the tests, such as fake urine.

          If it’s going to be a hair test, however, you may be SOL.

          For those wondering — pot stays in your system for 30 days — which isn’t to say that it affects you for 30 days — it’s just still in your system.

          1. No, please*

            Depending on the state and business insurance, the employees may tell you that those products are only for personal health benefits. They may ask you to leave if you say “drug test.” It’s silly but I know this from working in a tobacco/smoke shop.

    8. Trout 'Waver*

      It depends. Are they actively trying to fire you? If so, you’re better off quitting than having the mark on your record.

      If you are in good standing otherwise, you could talk to your boss. Someone companies don’t care about marijuana and are looking for other things like opiates or alcohol. Maybe the company is trying to fire someone else and is ‘randomly’ testing people think will pass. The odds aren’t good for you, though.

    9. A Nonny Mouse*

      Forgive me for asking the jerk question.

      If weed is illegal where you live, and you know that random drug tests are a possibility and that you would be fired if you failed, why do you continue to smoke it twice a day?

      1. Jadelyn*

        Is that really any of anyone’s business? Or relevant to answering the actual question of “what’s the least-worst way to handle this situation”?

        2. Creag an Tuire*

          I think it’s worth pointing out that after OP resigns (and that seems to be about all he can do), he should look into getting help for his addiction.

          And FYI, I’m completely pro-legal marijuana, but the fact remains that OP knew this activity would fuck up his life eventually if he kept doing it and he kept doing it anyway. Even if the activity was completely legal (like drinking or Facebook), that would sound like an addiction to me.

          1. Chameleon*

            This is kind of judgemental. He likely does this because he likes it, and it doesn’t negatively impact his job except for this unnecessary witch hunt. If my job banned drinking, I’d still have wine after dinner and accept it might mean I’d lose my job someday, but I’d do it because I like wine and I don’t think my employer has the right to tell me not to drink, not because I’m an alcoholic.

            2. Mazzy*

              As someone with (past) addiction issues, I don’t think this is judgmental, I think it is a valid concern. Having to do something every single day and during the day when you’re not working, as well as as soon as you get home is very concerning.

              1. Chameleon*

                He doesn’t say he has to. He chooses to.

                I often choose to read AAM on my lunch breaks AND when I get home. Sometimes I even do so in the bathroom. Doesn’t mean I’m addicted.

                1. OhBehave*

                  He knew about the company’s drug testing rules. He CHOSE to smoke weed every night after work. Addicted or not, he played the odds and is losing.

                  He has two choices; get tested and get fired or quit your job. Either way, he’s unemployed.

                  I’m wondering about the next job. Will they do random testing as well, and will he be in the same boat a year or two down the road? That’s a heck of a risk to take.
                  Maybe he’ll have to move to a legal state?

                2. Mazzy*

                  I feel like you’re playing semantics here. Those activities aren’t closely related at all to needing to alter your state of consciousness for hours a day. It is implied that the OP needs to do it since they do it every day. I’ve been around enough addicts in my years of recovery and have heard the cliche “I lied to myself that I could stop anytime, even though I never did because deep down I knew I was hooked” a thousand times.

                  Even if pot doesn’t cause active damage per se, you should evaluate what else you could be accomplishing by maybe going down to every other day.

            3. Sas*

              I knew someone who is now a dr. That stole computers and resold them for a living, shorted people out of wages rebuilding his home, and abused his ex wife. Perspective. He got help for none of it.

          2. anonderella*

            I disagree – as someone else pointed out, people need jobs even though their values may not exactly align with their employer’s.
            guy with no name didn’t say anything about using marijuana “fucking up his life”. Losing a job isn’t necessarily the worst thing to happen to people, either; we’ve seen a lot of examples on this site of how it ended up being a good thing. I agree with you that there should be some introspection on underlying issues and potential outcomes, but writing it off as an addiction is careless, especially when you don’t actually know the amount of though that Guy put into his daily usage.

            I am also a daily user, would potentially lose my job if caught, and yet I chose to continue. I budget for it. It’s as important to me as food – mainly because I can’t eat without it, so the two really do go hand in hand for me. I’m constantly weighing the pros and cons of my behavior, and have come to a conclusion that I want to continue. It’s not an addiction; it’s my choice.

            1. Creag an Tuire*

              “Addiction” was possibly too strong, but OP hasn’t weighed the pros and cons of his behavior. This policy was no surprise, so either he should’ve stopped using, or started job-searching immediately (and tried to stop using until he was free and clear of his old job). Waiting for the train to hit you is the worst option.

              2. Agnodike*

                Or he weighed the pros and cons of his behaviour and decided that, on balance, the risk of being randomly drug-tested and fired way low enough that it was outweighed by the benefits of continuing to work at the job while smoking regularly. Just because someone comes to a conclusion that’s different from the one you’ve reached doesn’t mean they’ve failed to give adequate consideration; sometimes it just means they weight the facts differently.

                1. Jessesgirl72*

                  He said that he saw other people be caught and fired for it. This wasn’t a slim chance – this was a sure-thing that it could come eventually.

                  Humans are really bad at risk assessment- in both directions.

                  I hope they do allow him to resign, and don’t decide he was fired for refusing the test.

                2. Agnodike*

                  Just because something *can* happen doesn’t mean it’s statistically likely to happen *to you,* or at least not necessarily past a statistical threshold that would make you change your behaviour. People get pulled over for speeding all the time, but most speeders, most of the time, don’t. Unless we know how large the company is and how many people are fired for failed drug tests in a given year, we don’t actually know how slim the chance is. If I’d seen two people get fired in two years, out of a company with hundreds of employees, my calculus would probably be quite different than if it was half the staff.

                  My point here is that we can’t actually assess guy with no name’s thought process, whether he’s made a reasonable call, or what his relationship is to the substance he uses, because we don’t have enough information to do so. I tend to give people, especially strangers, the benefit of any doubt I have.

              3. Jadelyn*

                That’s as may be, regarding waiting for the train to hit you, but this is still not helpful to what he came here to ask, and is unnecessarily judgmental of someone else’s life choices. It’s not your responsibility to make sure that everyone weighs the pros and cons of their behavior, and what he asked wasn’t about “should I be smoking pot?”, it was “I smoke pot, this is a situation that’s come up, would it be better to handle it via method A or method B?”

          3. Jadelyn*

            You’re assuming “addiction” where we have no evidence for that. And even if addiction is the right term, you’re assuming distress where there’s no evidence of that, either, because if a person is addicted to something but it’s not causing distress there’s no reason to worry about it except from a moralistic perspective, which is up to the individual to worry about, not a bunch of strangers on the internet. (And no, I don’t count having to quit this particular job as distress per se – the problem here is the insanely intrusive, hyper-controlling, no-exceptions zero-tolerance bizarro stance this company is taking on it. Not the smoking itself.)

          4. Gaia*

            There is absolutely nothing that indicates he is an addict and that is a big leap. Am I an addict if I take Advil twice daily even though I know if caught my employer would fire me? No. My employer would be deemed crazy. Same for guy without a name. He may very well be taking it for medical relief. You don’t know and it isn’t your business.

            And, for what it is worth, I don’t use pot and I’m not a huge fan of legalization but I mind my own business.

      2. Bend & Snap*

        I mean–if you’re calling it the jerk question up front, you should probably rein it in, right? Because this isn’t remotely helpful and it comes across as very judgmental.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          Exactly. This is not the place for this. Especially considering Alison’s view on pot and drug tests.

      3. Ask a Manager* Post author

        “If you know that that book is banned and you could lose your job for reading an illegal book, why do you continue to read it?”

        Just saying.

        1. tired*

          interesting thought… I read banned books.
          Trying to figure out what kind of banned book could get you fired these days…
          (but dont’ want to hijack this thread)

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Not likely in the U.S. these days, but that’s because we’ve grown more enlightened on that issue, as hopefully we will with others at some point as well. But my point is — some people feel strongly about disregarding laws governing what they can do with their own brains.

        2. TL -*

          To be fair, it does sound like this workplace was a particularly bad match for guy with no name. They sound very transparent about their policies, however draconian, and the consequences for not following policy.

          (If they had started enforcing a little known rule or put in a new rule, I would feel differently.)

          But this absolutely does stink and I can’t see how this would affect his job performance at all.

        5. Observer*

          Wouldn’t you start looking for a new job, though? And maybe even figure out how to move to a state where you don’t have to worry about an arrest, either?

          I do think that we really don’t have anywhere enough information to say “addiction!” On the other hand, there seems to be some fairly surprising choices here. At minimum, I would have expected that he was looking for a new job, hoping not to get caught before he found something else with a company that doesn’t do this stuff.

      4. Agnodike*

        Maybe because an employer shouldn’t have the right to take away your bodily autonomy, especially when it has no impact on your work performance?

        As far as the legality issue goes, people routinely do illegal stuff that’s culturally acceptable. Ever exceeded the speed limit? That’s pretty dangerous – to you and to others. Parked illegally “just for a minute?” Reeeeeeeallllllly had to go and peed in an alley on a night out? The answer to “why?” is usually “because it’s convenient or pleasurable and a quick guess at the likely risks and benefits indicates the probability of a negative consequence is pretty low.” Sometimes you get unlucky – you get pulled over, you get caught with marijuana (or with your pants down) – but most people, most of the time they do this illegal stuff, don’t suffer any consequences.

        The reasons people use drugs, legal and illegal, are myriad and complex. Not only is it impossible to fully appreciate the risk/benefit calculus someone else has made, it’s pretty rude to ask a stranger for that personal information, and even ruder to do it in a way that implies they’ve made the wrong choice.

        1. TL -*

          But an employer could also fire you for drinking (teachers face this) and for ever wearing the color green or fire everyone in their employ who is between 5’6″ and 5’9″ (if it affects both genders the same). This isn’t the best policy, but if it’s important in your life to wear green, you should try to find employers that don’t have draconian policies against the color green.

          There’s also the fact that while, yes, we do tend to view pot culturally as the same thing as speeding, legally, it is viewed and treated entirely differently. Drug use is more like stealing – pot use is just shoplifting instead of grand theft auto.

          1. Agnodike*

            Of course we should all try to find employers whose values align with our. It’s just not always possible to do so. There’s also a difference between “there are no restrictions on an employer doing this” and “an employee should reasonably internalize that this is normal and behave accordingly.” If my employer had a policy that I would be fired for wearing green outside the office on non-work time, I would almost certainly still wear green if I had a reasonable chance of evading detection, because I would consider that rule deeply unreasonable. Of course, I would also be looking for work at a place that didn’t have insane rules, but that doesn’t mean I might not still be working there for awhile.

            I’m not commenting at all on how the law addresses marijuana use, since a) I’m not in the United States; b) that’s not at all the topic of discussion to which I was responding. My whole point was that to say “One should never do anything illegal, and if one does, one should expect to lose one’s job” isn’t actually reflective of how people feel about all illegal behaviour. Rather, it has a lot to do with cultural judgments about what it means about a person that they use marijuana, and I think that’s unfair and pretty silly.

            1. TL -*

              I do think it’s different, because illegal drug use can be treated like a felony in the USA, so it’s actually really different from most crimes that people commit – jaywalking, speeding, and such are treated the same culturally and legally. Pot isn’t and thus is it reasonable for companies to treat it differently than your social group does. If you get caught speeding, you get a ticket; you may be late to work but your company is unlikely to be affected. If you get caught with pot, you could, depending, get serious jail time and it could have serious repercussions for the company – for instance, a hospital with an employee arrested for drug possession is going to get lots of bad press.
              The social/legal divide here does make it reasonable for your company to treat pot use differently than your social group. Plenty of companies choose not to care but as much as I do think drug testing is invasive, the fact is it’s legal, pot is illegal, and it is reasonable for companies not to want to employ people committing (at worst) felonies.

    10. Lizzle*

      It sounds like you know your workplace, so I’m leaning toward resign (although resigning without notice isn’t going to look great either.)

      But some employers will refer employees to addiction counseling before firing them. If you thought that was likely, I would probably go for the test and the counseling. No idea if you are actually addicted, but given that you know that smoking weed could result in you being fired, fined, and/or jailed at any time it doesn’t seem like the best habit to keep (unless you intend to move to a state with different laws).

        1. animaniactoo*

          It sounds like you really know the answer here – all the variables are known.

          There is no way ever that having a documented failure is a better result than a no-given-reason quit on the spot. There are legal implications to the failure. There are no legal implications to quitting.

          I’m really sorry, it sucks.

        2. Aphrodite*

          All you have here are bad options. The best you can do is choose “the least bad,” and that, to me, would be resigning, citing as your reason your objections to drug tests and other invasive procedures in general. Be a conscientious objector.

    11. Karanda Baywood*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this.

      People can drink themselves sick and keep a job. But pot is somehow “different.”

      1. TL -*

        The difference is that pot is still illegal (and illegal on the federal level, so even in the states where it’s legal, it’s not truly legal).
        I don’t think it’s helpful to debate whether pot is or isn’t worse than alcohol or whether the laws are fair; this was a clearly stated policy and has been enforced in the company.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        You’re right I have seen CDL drivers party hearty the night before, stay up to 2 then get behind the wheel at 5 am. Can’t tell me they are sober.

        1. Whats In A Name*

          Yes. And if they got caught (via breathalyzer or other method) they would probably not be working for that carrier anymore. You can break the rules all you want, but you do so knowing there might be consequences. Then they catch up with you you have to figure the best way to deal with them.

      3. Mazzy*

        That’s not really true though. I go to AA regularly and it’s been chock full of people screwing up their jobs or settling for lower level jobs that they would have been capable of doing. For example, I’m often heard of someone settling for a paper pusher type position instead of pursuing a vocation or career-type role because they didn’t want the added pressure and hours cutting into their drinking. So just because an alcoholic has A job doesn’t mean they somehow beat the system.

    12. La Revancha Del Tango*

      Use a friend’s urine who is clean. I did that one time. It’s easy (they don’t watch you use the bathroom). Just make sure it stays body temperature and you go to the lab right after the urine is given to you. It has to stay body temperature and they check for certain molecules (basically they would be able to tell the difference between old urine and new urine). Also, if you’re a man use a man’s urine. Don’t use a female’s :)

      1. animaniactoo*

        Different labs do different things. You can’t guarantee that they won’t pat him/her down, make them strip to just underwear before entering the stall, etc. This is not advisable.

        1. Random*

          No lab will pat you down or make you take off your clothes. It’s for a job, not a visit to a patrol officer.

            1. Lizzle*

              Some places require the administering person (nurse, etc.) to actually be in the room with you while you pee. I would imagine that is more common with higher-clearance situations, but I guess you never know.

              Source: chatted with a nurse who had to administer these tests.

          2. The OG Anonsie*

            IIRC I’ve been searched during some of the drug screenings I’ve had to do for hiring before. I had to turn over my jacket and bag, they did sort of a light pat down, and told me not to touch the sink or turn the water on or do anything other than pee in the room they put me in otherwise they would void the test. I wasn’t even allowed to wash my hands until they had run the test and confirmed it and everything, not sure why.

            1. Natalie*

              When doing urinalysis, they’re testing for a specific concentration of each substance. A person could potentially add a little water to their sample to dilute it and get the concentration of substance X below the “positive” level.

              1. The OG Anonsie*

                No I get why they wouldn’t let me use the sink with the door closed and all, I just don’t get why they wouldn’t let me wash my hands after I had turned over the specimen to them already. They were running the sample and I was standing there trying not to touch anything waiting for the ok to wash my hands.

                1. Natalie*

                  Oh, I see. I wonder if they wanted to be able to swab your hands in case something looked adulterated in the sample?

                2. The OG Anonsie*

                  That might be it. This was years ago so I don’t remember if they did swab or told me they might swab, but they definitely didn’t explain why or the procedure– It seemed like they didn’t want me to know too much, presumably because knowing the process makes it easier for people to try to game it.

        2. k*

          Considering this test is thorough enough to want blood and hair, I wouldn’t be surprised if they were taking extra steps to prevent cheating.

      2. guy with no name*

        They take hair and blood too so even if my urine is clean I’ll still fail. Thanks for trying though.

      3. TL -*

        To be completely honest, if a friend or coworker asked me for clean urine, I would say no. And with a coworker, depending on the job and the reason, I would at least consider letting the manager know. For this case, I probably wouldn’t. But I would also be really shocked and angry that I was asked.

      4. Lily in NYC*

        He said they are doing blood and hair tests too. I don’t think anyone can beat a hair test. I’m so sorry, op. This sucks hard.

    13. New Girl*

      You have to produce a certain amount of urine for these types a test. If you don’t produce it, sometimes they let you come back another day. See if that is an option?

      Or could you ask to reschedule? You get an hour of early leave but is the lab in an inconvenient location that may make you late for another appointment?

      (Also, only speaking to my experience getting a drug test for a pre-employement screening at a pharmaceutical company)

      1. guy with no name*

        Like I said they don’t let any rescheduling be done. They take hair, blood and urine so even if I don’t give enough urine they’ll just use the other stuff.

        They never tell people until the morning when you come in and they pay you even though you leave an hour early so no one will complain about being stuck after work doing it.

        1. TL -*

          I’m sorry. I think your best bet is to resign and look for an employer who doesn’t have a drug testing policy. I don’t know where you live but most places with a fair amount of businesses will have places that don’t test at all.

          1. New Girl*

            Yeah, I’m going to have to agree. It doesn’t seem like there is another solution at this point.

    14. S.*

      Quit, but say it’s because you are opposed to testing as an invasion of privacy. That’s a valid stance, and a good way to deflect questions about whether you hypothetically would have failed.

      2. TL -*

        Given the transparency of their policies, I doubt the manager will buy it. Why would he take the job if he had such an issue with it?

        2. Blue*

          Maybe the manager won’t buy it, but it’s a completely valid reason to be quitting, and provides a plausible alternative to “I do drugs”.

          Also, personally, I work for a company where I have an issue with several of their policies. But I work here because I like the work in general, and my family and I need to eat. No job will ever align 100% with my values. We all make compromises and I might be less likely to make a compromise if those policies started effecting me more directly.

        4. Mallory Janis Ian*

          I don’t think the manager necessarily has to buy it; it just seems to be the best stance for OP to take given the all-around impossibility of the situation.

        5. Gandalf the Nude*

          Yeah, it doesn’t matter whether the manager buys it, just that it’s the official version on the record. And if the managers asks, it would be fine to say he didn’t want to rock the boat when the policy didn’t personally affect him, but he’s taking a hard line now that it does.

        6. The OG Anonsie*

          Because work is work.

          Plus a lot of places have policies on the books that they can do this, but they don’t actually ever make anyone do it unless they have some serious suspicion that is causing an issue.

          1. TL -*

            It sounds like they’ve been pretty clear in their policy and enforcement since the time that guy with no name has started working there. This doesn’t sound like an on-the-books policy that never gets enforced; it sounds like a clearly stated, regularly used policy that it was perfectly reasonable to expect to happen to you.

            That being said, this policy is horribly invasive (blood!?!?!) and this is coming from someone who works in a hospital and happily submits to blood work for vaccine titers and regular flu shots and mandated vaccines if I “fail” the blood titer tests.

          2. Mazzy*

            But why then quit all of a sudden 2 years into the job? The backlog of moral indignation only caught up when it applied to oneself for the first time?

        2. Allypopx*

          Update us with what happens. Besides being a stupid policy that’s a ridiculously invasive drug test.

        3. anonderella*

          I’m so sorry, Guy. This must be incredibly stressful. I don’t have any great ideas to add (hair AND blood ?? 8 . ), just commiseration.

          I am a Girl, once almost in your situation. I’m still building my job history, and have only been at my current, entry-level position for about a year and a half. One morning, I came in to find a request for drug-screen on my desk (I use about as much as you). And. I. Panicked. I texted my SO and my mom – the two people who would be most immediately affected by me losing my job – within 30 seconds of reading the request. After running through EVERY scenario (part of my immersive thought process) I realized what options made more sense than others – I might have to find a position in an industry I can rely on not to drug test, thereby possibly taking a lower position/pay than I had. I might have to lose my health insurance for a little while. I might have to forgo the last year and start over with my resume.
          *It might be really, really hard*, in contrast to my life when I woke up this morning and didn’t have to face those decisions.
          During this struggle, the things that are most important to me just floated up to the surface, and I knew where my priorities lie; not everything became clear, but my decision got easier since I was coming from a place of considering my priorities. They’re not going to be the same for everybody, nor will I be necessarily able to explain them. I knew I would resign on the basis of drug-testing being invasive and also unnecessary to my position, I knew I would consider healthcare options that were less-attractive than my current one (maybe going back to the headache-inducing bureaucracy of Obamacare.. maybe begging my SO to get me on his insanely cheap plan as a domestic partner even though that means certain conversations/repercussions for our relationship… sigh), and I knew I would be willing to take on two jobs to make up for any lost income, meaning I’d lose some very precious me-time at home. For me, knowing I would be willing to do all these things was part of balancing those priorities against saving money to move to a legal state – which is the decision I ultimately landed on.

          (story ending is that I completely misread the request; there was a note asking me to pass on the request to someone else. Gave myself/SO/mom all heart attacks with my panicking, but I learned a lot about my own resilience from that struggle. They weren’t able to give me answers, after all; it all had to come from me. After pitching an internal fit (my thought process) about what was I going to do, I was Able To Do, and to move forward. I had a solid plan and felt on sure ground even before I re-read the request.)

          I expect that today will be a big day for you, with lots of stress but also reminders of what you hold most dear. I have faith/hope for you, that today goes alright no matter how the outcome. Remember that you’re a capable individual, and you will most certainly figure out what’s best for you, whether that be quitting or making moves to better align your values and lifestyle. Consider all the possible options, and keep self-care in your mind for now.
          You’re in my thoughts today! Wishing you the absolute best of luck.

          1. Soupspoon McGee*

            Good for you for thinking through your priorities and making a plan in only a few seconds! It’s amazing what that kind of stress can do to push us forward.

      5. Viktoria*

        Yes, this was my suggestion. Tell your supervisor that you understand that it is company policy but that you feel very strongly that it’s an invasion of privacy and you are not willing to undergo the test. Tell her that you understand that means you can’t continue working there, and offer to work out 2 weeks notice. If she says no, today is your last day, then that’s fine- this way you have offered and not burned the bridge.

        She may see through this, but it’s none of her business, and lots of people feel strongly that this kind of drug testing is an invasion of privacy.

        3. Viktoria*

          And I just want to add, I don’t smoke weed regularly (maybe once per year) and I would decline Especially upon reading your clarification that they test hair and blood in addition to urine. I am frankly horrified that they do a blood test, that is so invasive and inappropriate. So I don’t think saying this would be that unusual or surprising. One way or another, they are going to lose good employees over this policy over the course of time, and that is the decision they are making.

          1. Amy The Rev*

            yep- I absolutely hate getting blood drawn, I have a Legit Meltdown every time it happens (which fortunately has only been about once every 3-4 years for one thing or another), and would refuse any blood test that wasn’t medically necessary or mandated with a warrant.

            1. Another Lawyer*

              Same. I don’t do drugs, but even my PCP has to prescribe an ativan to get blood out of my veins.

            2. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

              Same here. I don’t do drugs, but I’m extremely needlephobic and would have an enormous problem having to take a non-medically necessary blood test. (Medically necessary ones are bad enough!)

          2. AnonAnalyst*

            I don’t use anything that would show up on a drug screen, and I don’t ever see myself submitting to the hair and blood test unless I had no other employment options. That is unreasonably invasive and I would definitely push back hard against it.

            I think urine testing is also inappropriate for most office jobs, but at least that’s not as invasive. I would push back against a urine test too, but it’s less egregious to me that what OP’s company is requiring.

      8. KR*

        This. They may see through it but if you’re on record (give them a letter, email her a copy after, and keep a copy so your boss can’t lie about what you said behind closed doors) about it being an ethical issue, you will save face.

      9. INFJ*

        At first, I thought that sounded good. However, knowing everything OP has mentioned, I wouldn’t even bring up the test at all. Just quit on the spot and let them speculate. Once you bring up the test, they can consider it a failed test on the grounds of refusal/no-show.

      10. Mazzy*

        But if the OP had an issue with testing that was so strong that they are quitting, then they would not have taken the job to begin with. This wasn’t a new policy sprung on OP recently.

    15. Electric Hedgehog*

      Yeah, dude, you’re screwed. Sorry. That’s a crappy situation to be in. Quit in advance.

      And make sure your next job is in a state where recreational use is legal or that it doesn’t do random testing. You’re taking on too much risk for too little reward, here.

      1. Good Luck*

        Could you fake an emergency sometime before you have to go in for the drug test? Perhaps get “violently ill” in the bathroom and excuse yourself for the rest of the day? I’m sure the issue will keep coming up, but at least you can postpone it long enough to look for a job where they don’t do (urine, blood and hair!!!) drug testing.

        Good luck!

        1. guy with no name*

          Nope since I showed up to work and was given notice I have to go. Missing it means getting fired unfortunately. It’s looking like I’ll have to quit.

      3. FYI*

        I live in a state where both recreational and medical marijuana are fully legal. You can still get fired for failing a test here for marijuana.

        1. TL -*

          Just a side note here: Pot is still illegal on the federal level so there is no place in the USA where it is fully legal to use pot. (And the new administration has signaled its intent to enforce this. The old administration didn’t care, so it was a much safer assumption to call it fully legal in 2016.)

          And in a right to work state, they can fire you for any reason that doesn’t fire you for being in a protected class.

          1. FYI*

            ? I appreciate the rest of your point, but what does right to work have to do with anything? No one has brought up OP or anyone else not wanting to join a union.

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Quick clarification — “right to work” is actually about whether or not you can be forced to join a union. “At-will” is probably what you’re thinking of, and all states besides Montana have at-will employment.

            2. Natalie*

              And you can never be forced to join a union! In a non-RTW state you may have to pay an smaller agency fee if you don’t join, in an RTW state agency fees are also disallowed.

    16. Amy The Rev*

      I’d tell them that you decline to take the test, and let them decide to fire you if they want. That way it wont go on your record as having been ‘fired for failing a drug test’, and when you’re talking to a prospective employer and they ask why you left your last job, you can say that you were fired for declining to comply with invasive policies, or because there was an irreconcilable cultural mismatch about some of their more invasive policies, or something like that.

      1. guy with no name*

        Thanks. I’m thinking I’ll just have to quit. If I refuse I’ll be fired on the spot for refusing a drug test and that’s what will go on my record.

        1. Amy The Rev*

          Yeah but folks refuse drug tests for a variety of reasons, including on principle, and that’s what you could say you’re doing (as a non-drug user, I’d probably refuse on principle, too). At least if you’re fired you might qualify for unemployment depending on the laws in your state!

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Honestly, I don’t use drugs and I would refuse a required blood and hair test for the kind of work I do. The only industries I could see that being reasonable would be direct patient care, operating heavy machinery, or dealing with incredibly sensitive/confidential information.

    18. E*

      As a former HR person who had an employee test positive for this, we had to terminate employment immediately. That was all, no prosecution was involved. If the employee had come forward before the positive test, the company policy offered the possibility of working with him if he went to rehab, but that option was lost when he didn’t “turn himself in” as it were. The options I see for you are to quit, be fired, or see if your company offers assistance (if quitting the weed is an option).

    19. rubyrose*

      Sorry, guy, I think you need to quit today and not go for the test. Tell future employers that you quit for ethical, invasion of privacy reasons. From the picture you paint of what their reaction will be if you try any other approach, I think it is better for you to quit as opposed to getting fired on the spot.

      I’m in a state where it is legal and even here there are companies that will immediately fire you if you test positive. Their ability to do that has been upheld by the state supreme court. And yes, that stays in your system for quite a while, as you know.

      1. rubyrose*

        Also, consider quitting NOW, at least temporarily, so you can pass whatever drug screening you might have to do to get new employment.

      2. JengaViking*

        Walgreens sells an at home pee test for weed so someone could buy one and see what’s doing. However, this is pointless if they test hair and blood. I say working in an office job that required these kind of invasive tests is insane! Good luck.

        1. rubyrose*

          I do have to say, I’ve had to routinely do drug screening as a part of job offers. They have never taken a hair sample. Blood, maybe once.

    20. LKW*

      I’d go to your supervisor and let them know that you’re not going to go to the test and that you’re submitting your resignation. You can offer to stay 2 weeks if they choose. They’ll read between the lines and determine the next step as far as requiring you to leave immediately or stay on 2 weeks.

    21. K*

      You can resign and give two weeks notice, which your office can decline when you refuse the test, but my understanding is that it’s not a firing if you resign first. Make sure you get all your stuff together before you leave.

    22. Stephanie (HR Manager)*

      The EEOC is opposed to random drug screenings for employees that do not work in something like driving or public safety (think truck driver, police officer, etc.) If you are not in a position where your impairment could cause harm to others, your employer should not be drug screening because it is considered an invasion of your privacy. (The actual language escapes me just now.) I am not a lawyer, but if you are really desperate to keep your job, and you don’t work in that kind of position, you could hire a lawyer and see if you can fight the screen.

      That being said, weed stays in your system for a long time if you are a regular user. If you want to continue using, you should choose your career appropriately.

      1. fposte*

        I’m seeing that that’s true for prescription drugs but not for illegal drugs. But I could be missing something.

    23. Student*

      I suggest you admit to your supervisor and offer to resign. It’s both owning the consequences of your decision like an adult and taking a little control of how the narrative goes.

      Then, given any options at all, don’t take up a job where they do drug tests if this is how you’re going to live your life. You should get to live your life as you’ve chosen, but you don’t get to make the decision that other people should eat the consequences for your choice when they have a clearly stated policy that this is something they don’t want going on.

      I know you don’t think the tests have a logical reason. Maybe you are right; but maybe you are wrong. I am in a job where we are regularly drug test, and we have very good reasons for it. Even though I think the public in general ought to be able to make a choice in this, I absolutely back my employer’s decision to not allow it at all and think they’re making the right call for our job. Sometimes the reasons aren’t obvious, but that doesn’t mean they are necessarily non-existent. Conversely, I know of jobs with drug tests where I have strong doubts that there’s a good reason for it, so I’m not saying it’s always appropriate or sensible business.

      1. RVA Cat*

        Speaking of the sensible business aspect – how much is the employer paying to have the blood and urine test? Given that this is allegedly a random test of an existing employee at an office job…

    24. MoinMoin*

      Not sure if this has been said yet, but drinking a LOT of water right before -as in, completely clear urine- might dilute enough to make it unable to test and buy you some time. I think I just read that on an Ask Reddit (something about industry secrets) the other day. In the same vein, a false positive like cough syrup or whatever could buy you time.
      My department helped facilitate randoms with HR in my old job, but they were just the cheek swab ones. But they were never actually sent in for testing. I think they said they did a quick test that would flag if, like, you were under the influence at the time, but wouldn’t bother doing anything more unless there was a reason to suspect.
      Anyway, sorry about the draconian laws in your state and I wish you all the luck in the world in this.

    25. BTW*

      Sorry this is happening to you. You are probably best off finding the most graceful way to quit. I keep picturing the guy who shot himself in the foot to avoid being drafted and sent to Vietnam. A dramatic injury that lands you in the hospital would be a legit excuse to miss the testing appointment but I doubt any job is worth that. Perhaps a sudden, unspecified family emergency would explain both the missing test and the subsequent need to resign. Or win the lottery? Or a sudden inheritance so that you can quit your job and it no longer makes sense to send you to the test?
      More realistically, if you want to continue daily use, plan to move to a non-testing industry or job, or a state or country where it is more legal. It was just a matter of time in your current job. I know some people who got caught in their youth and then became entrepreneurs…small business owners of one sort or another…because it was the only career path open to them after they had a record. So working for yourself might be another option too. Good luck!

    26. No name*

      If it’s a urine test and you have 48 hours notice, you can pass.
      There’s a myriad of drinks and techniques to use, just research online.

      1. Stinky Socks*

        Not true for a daily user like the OP. It would take 14+ days to clear on a less-sensitive urine test, and up to 30 on a more-sensitive test. Says the mother of the teen who went to rehab…

    28. ST*

      Walk into your boss’ office, light one up, say “dude, I’m gonna take a really long lunch”, and then go get some Dunkin’.

    29. memyselfandi*

      This has been such an interesting thread to read. I am quite opposed to the legalization of recreational use of marijuana. I don’t indulge in any mind altering activities beyond the occasional drink in a social situation and in general I find people who are stoned (on alcohol or drugs) uninteresting to talk to. I have also read enough research on brain development to think that we really don’t know what is safe when it comes to drugs that affect the brain and I include the drugs that are prescribed in that group. The brain continues to develop into our early 20’s. My biggest objection to legalization comes from personal experience. Last year I had to move out of a new apartment I really loved because my downstairs neighbor smoked something called skunk. The smell permeated my apartment, it would wake me up in the middle of the night and my clothing would reek of the smell. Not a good look when you have a government job. I hate the smell of marijuana as well as cigarette smoke, and I see legalization as delegitimizing complaints about marijuana smoke. I see lots of comments here that smoking is your own business, but in some cases it is not. HOWEVER, I think I would quit a job that did random testing for drugs, or would never take the job in the first place. The principle of the thing is so deeply offensive to me. I have never had to face the question of what I would do, and it is not likely that I will, but it has caused me to think that I should form a better informed opinion on the topic.

  4. Morning Glory*

    Hey all,

    Happy Friday! I could really use some advice on whether this would be an ok request to make, and apologies for the long post.

    My organization has a department-wide fund for professional development that anyone can request funds from for classes and training and any related travel– as long as the funds are not being used to pay for tuition in a degree-seeking program. You don’t need to prove it will benefit the org immediately, the way you would for a conference, but it will need help you either in your current role, or to prepare you for a future role.

    I’m currently in a graduate program that is related to the work we do – A Master’s is required for any kind of upward movement at my current org, and even then it’s going to be tricky to move up for me because admins don’t get promoted as a general rule, or get to do work that would prepare us for a promotion (disclaimer: I’m quite bitter about this, as it not the opportunity promised when I took the job. I am trying to move forward in a positive way but am worried this may be clouding my judgment on what my org ‘owes’ me.)

    My grad program is offering a 2 week trip abroad that is options for students but that is relevant for my career aspirations, and the work my department is interested in – but not so relevant for my current position. In addition to the tuition that I would be paying for it, there are the program travel costs. I would like to ask if it would be possible for my organization to pay for part or all of my travel for this trip (I would still pay tuition).

    I know there is a chance they will say no, which I am fine with – but my question is: is it inappropriate even to ask? So many people say ‘it never hurts to ask’ but that’s not true, and I don’t want to come off as naïve or greedy. At the same time, I’m hoping going on a trip like this could change the sub-conscious mindset people have from ‘admin’ to ‘person in this field interested in moving up,’ and I can’t really afford to go paying for both tuition and travel.

    1. Newby*

      Have you applied for this fund before? If you have not I don’t see how asking about it will appear greedy. Even if you have it wouldn’t automatically look like that, but try to find out how often/how much other people in a similar position apply and try to stick to that. If this would prepare you for a role within the organization, it sounds in line with the purpose of the fund. If it is unlikely to prepare you for a role at this organization, it would be much tougher to justify.

      Ask around informally to see what your coworkers and supervisor think of this. If you hear a lot of people saying that they don’t think this trip really qualifies, don’t apply. If your supervisor thinks it is a good idea, then go for it.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Hmm.

      Generally, I would say that it couldn’t hurt to ask about this.

      However, because they are clear that the funds can’t be spent on a degree-seeking program, I think asking could come across as trying to skirt the system (you’d be asking them to pay for the travel, right, and arguing that it technically isn’t covering tuition?). If you have a strong relationship with your manager or another higher-level mentor, you could float the idea, but otherwise I would let this go.

    3. Rachel in NYC*

      I’d say ask, especially if you feel that you a good worker that is generally appreciated by management.

      An old job of mine didn’t pay for trainings except for people in specific positions (there was no fund like in your office), which wasn’t mine. But there was a course I was interested in taking and it was related to my work, so I asked. They were happy to pay for it even though no one else at my level had done something like that…

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Do you have someone there who you trust and who is in your corner?
      If you have such a person, I would check with them to find their thoughts on this.

      If you do not have that trusted advocate, maybe you have a good boss and the good boss would give you a fair and reasonable answer?

      If you do not have a trusted advocate and your boss is not reliable, then I’d say just go for it. My thinking is that you have been at the place for a while, if it was really going to rattle some cages that you applied, you would probably know this by now. The grapevine would have warned you not to apply. If you have never been warned, formally or informally, then go ahead and apply.

    5. animaniactoo*

      What I would ask your org is whether they would consider the travel costs, etc. for the program to be a tuition fee.

    6. Newby*

      I’d also like to say that there is a difference between applying for the fund and asking for clarification of whether this type of thing is eligible. Few people are going to thing you are “naive or greedy” for wanting to know more about what is eligible. I used to administer a travel fund and would often get inquiries about whether or not specific trips were eligible for the fund. I never thought badly of anyone who asked, even if it was obviously not within the scope of the fund. The only time I would start to get annoyed was when they would try to argue that the eligibility needed to be expanded or twisted to fit.

      1. Morning Glory*

        Thanks for your insights!

        To respond to both of your posts, this would be the first time I make a request, having worked here just under 2 years. I do like the suggestion from you and the others that I ask if this trip would be eligible first before making an official request.

    7. BeezLouise*

      I would 100% ask.

      You could even couch it as “I’m doing this program, and while of course I am paying tuition, is this the kind of thing I can apply for money from the professional development fund?”

    8. Jill*

      Yes, ask! Even if they say no, asking is going to look like you are a person interested in moving up.

      I asked my boss a few years ago about a conference, and even thought it was not approved (it was like $4,000 so fair enough), he definitely appreciated me bringing it to his attention. And when I had a different but much less expensive opportunity he happily approved it.

      In my case, the conference I was trying to attend had a basic business case letter you could customize and give to your employer to help you “sell it” to them. I found it an amazing template to work with. You could check with the program you would be attending – they may have a write up or business case letter you can borrow wording from about the opportunity.

      It might be helpful to see an example, so here’s the business case letter I used for IABC World Conference: http://wc.iabc.com/business-case-letter-wc/ I customized it to talk about my actual job and how each piece related to it or to my further career development/goals with the company.

  5. J.Green*

    My grad program requires us to do an internship as part of the degree, and they can be pretty competitive. One company sent out interview invites to around a dozen applicants…in the same email. It wasn’t even for a group interview or anything, we were just all in the recipients list for the same email.

    Maybe I’ being paranoid, but that seems like a good way to make things a bit awkward? It’d be weird to not acknowledge it at all I think, but there’s not much to talk about. It’s probably nothing, but I just feel it was an odd thing for a company to do.

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      That’s bad form, and super awkward. You aren’t being paranoid- it’s at least a yellow flag.

      You shouldn’t be able to see other interviewing candidates’ email addresses- there are situations where that could lead to crappy consequences if anyone on that list already has a job elsewhere.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I agree with Pineapple Incident. Whoever sent out the email likely doesn’t understand how BCC works.
      Never fun to see who the other applicants are (often especially if you know them/know of them.)

    5. Christian Troy*

      I’ve had this happen at least a handful of times. It’s awkward but that’s life.

    6. Overeducated*

      I had that happen with a form rejection email for a job an Ivy League school with around 100 applications. THEY DIDN’T BCC US.

      I found some schadenfreude in the later apology email :)

    7. Squeeble*

      My dentist’s office sent a mass email a while ago stating that they were no longer accepting the insurance I was on at the time. Another case of someone not understanding how BCC works–I could see the email addresses of everyone else who went to that dentist and used that insurance. Not the worst privacy breach in the world, obviously, but definitely bad form.

  6. WellRed*

    Apparently, it’s employee appreciation day (??). Our HR person is throwing us lunch in the conference room. We’ve never done this before. At least, we aren’t’ being strong armed into sending the CEO on a family ski trip.

    1. SaraV*

      Someone on another forum I frequent mentioned that they’re having pizza brought in at their work.

      Hope they have enough cheese pizza.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        We’re having pizza today too. “Just because” which, in my opinion, is a perfect reason to have pizza. My co-worker brought in some hot sauce for me to try. I am inordinately excited about all of these things.

        1. k*

          There’s no shame in being overly excited about pizza. Even bad pizza is better than not pizza :)

    3. Gracelyn*

      Yeah our management is having a baked potato and salad bar for appreciation day lol. At least they are considering what people can eat (diet, religion etc) this time instead of having roast and cake.

      1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

        That sounds good to me! At least I wouldn’t have to pack a lunch that day.

    4. Gala apple*

      That makes sense! My work gave out treats but about a third of the team is out on Fridays (weekend coverage); so ouch.

    5. Hlyssande*

      The VP sent an email about cookies this morning, which is awesome.

      Except he sent it to my group…and the main group in Manila, instead of the local main group. So my very small team went to get cookies and nobody else in the local office was going to get cookies, and there was confusion. I hope he’s getting all the teasing today…and also that he sent someone in Manila to acquire cookies, because he promised them cookies too!

  7. ArtK*

    I’ve got a couple of things that I’ll put in separate comments.

    First up. We all know that professional resume preparation is anathema here, for very good reasons. I’m doing a project for a business class and would like to do an informal survey about what these preparers charge. If you know of one and/or have used one, what were their rates (you don’t have to admit to actually having paid it!)

    Thanks!

      1. Jadelyn*

        …clearly I need a new side hustle. My jewelry doesn’t sell for anywhere near that much.

      2. AndersonDarling*

        I used one about 10 years ago and it was $250. More recently, I used one of the Linkedin Professional services to get quotes and they ranged from $200-250 and one was $250 per hour.

    2. Mabel*

      I’m not sure what professional resume preparers do – and now I’m curious. I paid AAM to look at my resume when that was offered, and I have had a career coach talk me through how to present myself in the best light. She also helped me prepare documentation that resulted in a big raise a while back. If that’s the kind of thing you’re looking for, I paid my coach around $100 in 2010 for the resume help, and it was well worth it. I learned a lot from working with her for a short time. Oh, and that was in NYC.

    6. Kowalski! Options!*

      A college buddy of mine was doing it to support his acting career around 2010. I think he was charging $15o for an initial consultation, first draft, consultation and second draft, with add-on charges for job-specific edits.

    7. Ask a Manager* Post author

      These prices strike me as incredibly low! I’ve always seen prices $500 and up, for real conversations and writing and re-writes. Maybe it’s regional.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        I’m ever more grateful that my mother provided this service for me early in my career. (More recently, she asked to see my resume, and had no suggestions! The student had become the master.)

  8. Pup Seal*

    How do you remind yourself you have talents and skills even when your boss doesn’t seem to think so?

    A bit of background: My job is mostly producing marketing materials for a non-profit research lab. On the side I sometimes take freelancing editing jobs. I’m also trying to become a published author. When I was younger I’ve always felt confident in my writing and editing skills, but for the past two years my confidence has been slipping away.

    My last boss always praised my work. My supervisor praises my work all the time. Last month I attended a writing workshop where I had the first ten pages of my book critiqued by an editor. She told me my work was her favorite out of all the other works she critiqued for this workshop, and she requested I submit my manuscript to her publisher. The problem comes with The Big Boss.

    When I started my current job, one of my job duties was to help Big Boss with revising papers, grant proposals, presentations, etc. Unfortunately they would be very poorly written. In general, he struggles getting grants proposals accepted because of the poor writing. When I first started helping him out, he would bitterly accept my feedback, but as time went on he started arguing with me. Then he stopped asking me to help revise his work all together.

    Then things got worse. Some of my tasks are creating newsletters, brochures, email campaigns, running social media, etc. Big Boss started doing these tasks himself and without telling me (or my supervisor). He would send email campaigns that were poorly written. He created newsletters that were poorly written as well. I was starting to think that maybe he was doing this because he didn’t believe in my writing skills and there was something wrong with my writing. I talked to my supervisor about it. He too didn’t understand why this was happening, especially because he didn’t see anything wrong with my work. The worst day was when Big Boss asked me to edit something, and I looked it over, wrote up my comments and feedback, and emailed them to him. He didn’t even look at it.

    Lately, Big Boss has been super busy, so my job duties are mine again. I got a confidence boost when I attended that writing workshop, but as time goes on at my job it’s starting to slip again. What can I do to keep my confidence from falling at work?

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      One thing you can do is to not conflate your own confidence with your Big Boss’s insecurity. He can reassign you to different tasks and take tasks for himself for his own reasons, which clearly aren’t aligned with producing the best content. But that’s his prerogative. Don’t let it get to you. From what you said here, your writing skills appear to be excellent.

    2. Paige Turner*

      The problem is definitely with Boss’s writing skills, not yours- his logic (for lack of a better term) is that his writing is good, and because your writing is different from his, and because he gets defensive in response to feedback/criticism, then the problem must be with your writing, not his! (Eye roll.)

      It seems like you already realize this, so don’t second-guess your skills :) Keeping up with your writing outside of work would probably help with your confidence. Is there a class or meet up writing group that you could join to be able to keep getting outside feedback and encouragement?

      1. Mabel*

        I agree! I have edited other people’s writing over the years (not as the main part of my job), and I’ve found that some people take the editing as personal criticism and can’t handle it. Others know they need some help, and they trust that I know what I’m doing. It sounds like the big boss is really insecure, so I would disregard any input from him.

        2. JustaTech*

          I know I take editing too personally so when I ask a peer (or my boss) to review a document I always ask for them to use the “review” function in Word and email it back to me. Then I try to make sure that I’m alone when I read their comments the first time so that initial “argh!” reaction doesn’t get expressed to anyone. Once I’ve read all the comments once I can be *much* more rational about it.
          It has nothing to do with my reviewers and everything to do with me.

    3. Christian Troy*

      I think you have to realize in academic research, there are a lot of egos and personalities at play in a way that may not be as bad in other sectors. People are allowed to “get away” with more in terms of having unprofessional habits and abrasive personality traits. i don’t think you can take it very personally, but I wonder if you really want to stay to academic research for very long. I think it takes a certain personality to tolerate or people view it as a stepping stone to other jobs.

      1. I Am Become the Internet, Destroyer of Time*

        +10

        This is one of the big reasons why I decided to transition from academia to industry. Some institutions look for collegiality when they hire faculty for tenure-track positions, e.g. the place where my dad worked as a full professor. Other places don’t give a rat’s ass about collegiality, and only care about how many papers you publish and in what journals.

        The latter situation definitely attracts jerks. The former, unfortunately, also allows a few people to slip through the cracks here and there. There was a particularly obnoxious rock star in my dad’s department who got all the press and the praise and smiled at the journalists, despite being a complete jerk to his colleagues. He couldn’t be fired b/c tenure. (The dep’t head did tell him to clean up his act though.)

    4. Beth*

      I don’t think your big boss’s rejection has anything to do with your writing skills, but it may have something to do with your editing style.

      Between helping people with their resumes, and being a part of various classes/groups in which I provide feedback in sort of a workshop setting for standup comedy/storytelling, I have realized that many people have the tendency to edit so much that they take away the voice of the original writer. If this big boss is as bad as you say (quite possible) at writing, then I imagine you are doing some VERY heavy editing. I completely understand this inclination, because that’s what I want to do when I read something poorly written! Heck, I have had people to ask to run Facebook status updates past me and I am inclined to change everything about them. But none of these are MY work or MY voice. You do enough heavy editing, and now suddenly you have your own writing.. not someone else’s.

      When you return the edits to big boss, is it covered in red ink (or the digital equivalent)? This would be discouraging to anyone. I have realized that for some, the compromise is to ask myself, “is this a true grammar issue, or just stylistic?” This keeps me from over-editing when I’m helping others, and it helps the original author retain their natural voice.

      Now as the old saying goes, you can’t polish a turd. If you do lessen your editing, you may not be happy with the end result.. but you aren’t the one putting your name on it.

      1. Jadelyn*

        This is a good point, too. Learning to “borrow” someone else’s writing voice is a hugely beneficial skill to anyone who drafts stuff or edits stuff for other people. Study the other stuff they’ve written, note quirks of phrasing and style, and try to preserve the “feel” of those when you edit. People can swallow heavy editing a lot better when they still feel like their personality is coming through.

        1. Pup Seal*

          Yes. At my internship my boss was all about this: make sure the writer’s voice is still there. It’s the writer’s work after all.

          Usually when I edit I go over to make sure the content makes sense and doesn’t tangent off, then I go over the writing for any long wordy sentences, redundancies, or incorrect word choice. I’ve gone back and forth between using (purple and green) ink and track review on Word. I try to give feedback the sandwich method way (nice feedback, critical feedback, nice feedback) because I know criticism is never a fun thing to receive. With my boss, I try to word my feedback in a way he can understand why x,y,z would benefit his grants and papers and get the results he wants (ex getting money from grants).

    5. Jadelyn*

      I will give you some of the best advice that was ever given to me in my life: if it’s not about you, don’t make it about you.

      This isn’t about you. This is about his ego and his inability to gracefully accept criticism and use it to grow and improve. So, don’t make it about you! Harder than it sounds, I know, but repeat that phrase like a mantra and eventually it acts as a shield against taking stuff like this personally and suffering the hit to your confidence in your own skills.

      I’ve got a great-grandboss (CEO of the company – it goes me, my manager, our VP, the CEO) who is like this. Not that his own work is terrible as far as I can tell, but he’s an insane micromanager. Literally nothing ever goes to him for approval without coming back with a laundry list of at least half a dozen requested changes – the last org chart update I did, he had a list of 22 changes he wanted made! Mostly small stuff like formatting but my god it was annoying. Seriously, if Moses had come down with the original tablets of the 10 Commandments and given them to our CEO, he would have sent them back up to God with a list of changes to be made. He’s just that bad about this.

      And yeah, it really upset me the first few times it happened. I felt like I had failed somehow. Then I noticed he was doing this with everyone in my department, and realized that the fact that he was personally reviewing the work of an entry-level department assistant was a bit odd too, and realized it really wasn’t me. It was about his need for control.

      So now, stuff comes back with his list of changes, and I roll my eyes and mutter irritated things about micromanaging jerks under my breath, but I do them and let it go because I know it’s not a commentary on my skills, it’s just something he needs to do in order to feel like he’s in control of his world. It’s not about me.

      1. TL -*

        Yes, this. It’s clearly not an issue with you; it’s an issue with him and his inability to accept critiques.

    6. ExceptionToTheRule*

      I submit my work for awards from a neutral 3rd party. Definitely makes me feel better about myself when I win.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Yeah, this stings.

      One of the many things I would tell myself is that “My sense of self-worth/work ethic/whatever does NOT come from my boss. It comes from ME.” Some days all I had was the satisfaction of knowing I have lived up to my own standards. Learn to take more satisfaction in knowing that you have done your absolute best, dwell on that more than dwelling on your boss’ thoughts and actions.

      I hope you are job hunting. I am sorry you are going through this.

    8. C Average*

      Here are the things I think you have to consider here:

      1) Is Big Boss a good writer?

      If he’s not a good writer, I don’t think you have to take his feedback personally. You do have to heed his feedback (more on that soon), but you don’t have to feel beat up by it. It’s fine to tell yourself, “I work for a know-it-all manchild who can’t write, and I am paid to produce fourth-grade content (or whatever) to make him happy.”

      2) Is Big Boss YOUR boss, and is he in charge of the deliverables you’re describing?

      If he is, then you may need to suck it up and take his misguided edits. I’ve been in this situation and it is painful to the soul of someone who cares about good writing, but part of having a job is doing things that suck in exchange for money. It’s kind of the nature of the arrangement.

      3) Do you have a byline or any other public acknowledgment that these written products were created by you?

      If so, you may be able to leverage that a little bit. “It feels dishonest to me to have my name on something that has so much input from you.” Used effectively, this tactic can either a) get your name removed from these products, which may at least assuage your pride; or b) get him to butt out a little bit.

      4) Do you have other trusted independent assessments of your writing skills?

      Yes. Remind yourself of that. Often.

    10. dappertea*

      It sounds like this is your Big Boss who is the problem, and definitely not your work. Some people are just very closed off to feedback, despite appearing to seek it out. It sounds like maybe he just wanted someone to look at it and say “looks good!” instead of working to improve it. When he wasn’t getting that, he just bypassed you. Maybe he’s defensive about his writing abilities?

      The next time Big Boss asks you to read through something, you could ask what he’s looking for you to do. Does he want you to focus on content or grammar? You may have to adapt your feedback style. The “compliment sandwich” seems kind of passé, but it really does work for some folks.

  9. Audiophile*

    I got a job offer!!!!

    As usual, it went quickly. I interviewed on Tuesday, had an email a few hours later asking for references. Got a call yesterday that they were having difficulty reaching one of my references and wanted to know if I could provide an alternate, I did. Had an offer a few hours later.

    It’s 20k over my salary in my last role, which just cements how underpaid I was. I asked for the weekend to think about it, but there’s not much to think about. I plan to accept today and find out when they’d like to me start. Great way to start the month!

    18. JobSeeker017*

      Audiophile:

      Congrats on the job offer!

      I hope you find lots of fun ways to spend that additional $20,000!

    20. Worker B*

      Congrats!

      Can I ask what you mean by it went quickly as usual? My experience has been that hiring processes are very slow. Any offers following my interviews and taking references have been at least two weeks later.

      1. Audiophile*

        I’ve mostly had the opposite experience. Almost all of my jobs have involved only 1 interview, rarely has it gone to a second round, then a reference check and then an offer. Most reference checks were quick, a few days at most and then an offer was made. I think this was one of the shortest periods from interview to offer.

        Now I’m waiting on them to call back so I can officially accept.

  10. Sassy AE*

    WE GOT NEW WORK COMPUTERS! They’re lighter and easier to haul around (we do a lot of event work), and I can finally install Adobe PS on it so I don’t have to switch to a Mac just to update copy or something.

  11. Detective Amy Santiago*

    How did you figure out what you wanted to do with your life? I’m 40 years old and I’ve never really had a ‘career path’. I’ve done well in previous positions and am well respected in my current position, but I know this isn’t something I’ll do for the next 20-30 years. The problem is that I don’t know what I want to do and I have a fear of change, so I’m unlikely to make a move. Admittedly, I’ve been in my current position for less than a year and I do have the opportunity here to learn some new skills, but I feel like I should have a long term plan and I don’t.

    Any advice?

    2. FriYAY!*

      I don’t have any advice but am in the exact same spot. I feel stuck. I’m sorry you are feeling this way.

    3. bassclefchick*

      Don’t worry – I’ve never had a career path either. It was more of a “how can I pay the rent in the best way possible” path. I’ve never figured it out either. Which is probably why I’m having so much trouble finding a job right now.

    4. Amadeo*

      I still don’t know what I want to be when I grow up. I had a similar crisis of sorts when I failed out of my pre-vet college. I had never, ever considered anything else all through high school. I spent about a week completely lost, but managed to get into a vet tech program (RNs for animals, more or less) and did OK. Ironically somehow 14 years after graduating from that I’m a web specialist with an office job.

      I’ve begun to develop suspicions of anyone who tries to tell me they’ve got it all figured out.

    5. RVA Cat*

      I’m in much the same place.

      I think for a lot of our generation and younger, “what you do with your life” is *not* your career.

      1. epilo*

        People keep telling me that, as though it fixes it – my problem is I can’t get out of the headspace of *wanting* my career to be what I do with my life. And I’m working on it in therapy (in about half an hour!) but I don’t seem to be able to get past this problem. Any tips?

        1. Jadelyn*

          In that case, the other possibility is to figure out how to take what you enjoy doing and figure out a way to make a career of it. Which is way harder than it sounds, tbh, and isn’t always a good idea (and there’s a whole rant about micro-entrepreneurship culture on the internet and “follow your Passion(tm)” as terrible business advice that I’m not getting into here), but if you can’t find a career that fits the “what you do with your life” need, maybe try working through it in the other direction.

        2. MWKate*

          Is there something that immediately pops into your mind when you think of, if I could have any job it would be… (and seriously here, not like laying on a beach drinking margaritas petting cats).

          I was in the same boat. There was something I always wanted to do, but it just seemed out of reach, and something that would require a lot of effort for not a ton of financial success. I just decided it was worth it to me.

          If there’s something that you’ve always wanted, and always enjoyed – even start looking into it. Sometimes you’ll find a path towards it that you can make work.

      2. I Am Become the Internet, Destroyer of Time*

        To follow up on that, as one of the bespoke young’uns:

        I’m young enough to (hopefully) get my Master’s in Teapot Engineering at a time when tech is hiring big domestically. But I’m also old enough to remember ’08 in vivid, graphic detail. I overheard one student in ’09 or ’10 talking about how his family was trying to pool money for him to fly to interviews, even though the interviewers kept stringing him along. I also heard a student talk about being homeless. And I remember when SeekingArrangements and similar sugar daddying stuff became a thing.

        I hope I’m going to get into a field with a lot of growth and money, but at the same time, being the guy who tries to advance to higher and higher positions seems weird. My grad school is unusually professionally-oriented, and so I’ve gotten the impression that this kind of progression is normal and expected. But I just can’t see myself doing it. Having a good job would already put me in a better position than a lot of mid-late 20-somethings; being better than better feels absurd. I think there’s a lot of survivor’s guild there too, because I know there are a lot of smart people out there for whom hard work, brains, and bootstraps didn’t mean anything.

        Meanwhile, I’m starting to get into D&D model building and pastel drawing, because when the next big crash happens, I gotta have something to do to keep from going crazy and have a healthy sense of self, right?

    6. Chameleon*

      I’m almost 40 and have been this way for most my life too. I think I get it from my dad, who never had a “career” either but is the happiest guy I know. He saved up just enough to buy a small house in Hawaii away from the tourist areas; he now runs a website which he can do from home, and spends the rest of his day playing music and hanging out on tropical beaches.

      He really helps remind me that a “career” isn’t necessarily the end goal of life. If you find something that you don’t hate doing all day, and that gives you enough money to do what you like, who cares if it’s going to lead somewhere?

      1. Jaydee*

        My dad taught me that the job you spend 20 years at and ultimately retire from is not necessarily anything you imagined yourself doing when you were in high school or college. He studied psychology (after flunking out or dropping out of college a couple times) and became a social worker. Eventually he went into more the business side of things and was business manager for a substance abuse treatment center and got his MBA. But after that place shut down he became an accountant at a manufacturing company. He loved that job, loved his coworkers, would bring home books to read so he could learn how the machines they made worked.

        So looking backward, it was a totally natural progression. But I can’t imagine my dad at 20 thinking “yeah, someday I’m going to wear ties to work and do numbers for a living!”

    7. Pebbles*

      Well, I’ve always known since I took a computer class when I was 12 that I wanted to work with computers, but I also had the idea of being a travel agent or writing about travel, that kind of thing, because that’s something else I love to do. I guess I would start with making a list of what you love: hobbies, sports, activities, etc. What kind of jobs are associated with those things? Not knowing your financial situation but you said that you fear change, I would see if there is something on that list that you could do part-time to ease into it, gain the skills necessary, see if it’s something you would enjoy doing for the next 20-30 years.

      Do you have friends with jobs that you think would be fun to do? Maybe talk to them to see if your view is realistic of what the job actually is, ask what kind of experience is necessary, and what an entry-level job would be that would start you on the path to eventually get to that fun job.

      The first step is to identify something you want to do, and the second is to figure out how to get there. I guess there’s a third step too: find someone or a group of people to cheer you on. Having others support you and for you to lean on makes any change easier. Actually, don’t think of it as a change so much as another new position. You’ve been in your current place for less than a year, so it hasn’t been that long since your previous position, right? This will just be the next position you move into.

      Good luck!

    8. AndersonDarling*

      It can help to remember that your career path may not be your life path. Some folks get most of their happiness from their work, others get their happiness from their life. If you have life goals (travel, learn non-work skills, build a roller coaster in the backyard) then you may want to focus on what you need to obtain those. In that case, work is just a means to get the $$ to fulfill your life goals.

    9. Seal*

      I was in your shoes a dozen or so years ago, having worked as a library paraprofessional for over 15 years. For me, it was a job that supported my extracurricular activities, which was fine while I was in my 20s and early 30s. But as I burned out and eventually dropped out of those activities, I realized that while I was out having fun many of my colleagues were already well into real careers. In every case, there were people who were widely considered to have less potential than I did, but while I appeared uninterested they stepped in and seized the opportunities that in retrospect I should have been chasing. I had also gotten to a place where I was afraid of change, mostly because I was bullied mercilessly for years at my first job by librarians who justified their actions by insisting they were “professionals”. Those were very miserable years.

      What ultimately got me out of my comfort zone was that our library building was about to undergo a multi-year renovation plan, which meant everyone in it had to be moved to temporary locations. That broke many well-established behavioral patterns and forced a number of issues, not the least of which was that the bullying that had gone on behind the scenes was now out in the open for all to see. Even better – the librarians who bullied me were mostly running around like chickens with their heads cut off during the move, while the paraprofessionals were calm, cool and collected. The whole situation was the kick in the pants that I needed. I left that job, temped for a bit, then took another paraprofessional position while I went to library school. I was fortunate enough to get a good job within months of graduation at an academic library that afforded me numerous opportunities for advancement. Ten years later, I’m a well-respected and very successful department head.

      If someone had told me 15 years ago that I’d be a librarian one day, I would have laughed in their face. The reason I didn’t go to library school earlier (I started when I was 41) is because while I liked the work I did, I could not reconcile the behavior of the librarians at that job with the idea that they considered themselves to be professionals. I came to realize that if I wanted to continue working in libraries there were more opportunities for even mediocre librarians than there are for the best paraprofessionals. Now that I’ve been a librarian for a decade, I’ve come to realize that the people who were so terrible to me in my first job are definitely the exception, not the rule. Having an actual career path rather than a job, particularly now that I’m in my 50s, is a relief as well.

      My advice is to see what if there is truly a career path in your current position; you might be surprised by what you find. Or look to see if there’s something related or tangential to what you’re doing now that might lead to a career path. One of the nice things about taking your time to find your true path is the journey you take to get there.

    10. The Cosmic Avenger*

      First off, love the username! I hope you’re going to print out these comments and put them in a binder, with color-coded divider tabs! :D

      I just kind of fell into the path I’m on now. I started out answering the phones for questions about teapots, but then I started making quick updates to the website for Wakeen’s Teapots, and eventually the person who was a one-man web division showed me how to do the things I couldn’t figure out for myself, so that he could spend more time coding and managing the servers (things I have no interest in doing).

      I don’t really love what I do, but I can get passionate about parts of it, so I suppose I love those. The rest isn’t bad, between ugh-fine and kind of nice. But I work to live, I don’t live to work, and my employer supports that, so I don’t mind. And I’m paid well enough that I find it rewarding to do the parts I’m not crazy about. There’s nothing wrong with that.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I identify with Amy on a deep, spiritual level when it comes to organization and color-coding.

    11. What do I want to do when I grow up?*

      Hello, me. I must have commented here without remembering this morning.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I’m not sure if I should feel better that there are so many other people who feel the same way or if it’s disheartening since we generally spend at least a third of our lives working.

        1. Parenthetically*

          I totally think it’s fine, I just think the work-culture context of the US is heavily weighted toward work obsession. I have so many friends in Australia, for example, happily working in non-dream-job situations that pay the bills and give them plenty of vacation time and it would never occur to them to feel angsty about it. It’s pretty refreshing. (Caveat that obviously universal healthcare plays a BIG role in this, but even apart from that the cultural difference is striking.)

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Same boat.

      I think this career path thing is wildly overrated. (lol)
      Seriously, the only thing that I have been able to find is to follow my natural skills/abilities. The idea being if I am in an arena that I do well with, then I will remain employed and probably remain comfortable even in the face of challenges. For example, I could not be a firefighter. I see a burning building and my heart goes to the bottom of my shoes. I am pretty useless in that situation. I have other examples of entire arenas that would be poor choices for me.

      Put yourself where you can see yourself succeeding. We tend to know ourselves and know what types of things we can do well at.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Seriously, the only thing that I have been able to find is to follow my natural skills/abilities.

        This is where I am. The jobs I’ve been most successful in (paralegal and insurance adjuster) have used my strong writing, research, and investigative skills. I fell into these jobs and now have a career that, while it occasionally frustrates me, can go in so many interesting directions. I’m hoping to eventually transition into a risk management position either at a major corporation or a small business soon (I may have more autonomy in the latter), and I never would have known about or even considered this career choice had I not stumbled into my old paralegal job.

    13. Jadelyn*

      I honestly lucked into it. I’d been drifting from temp job to retail to temp job for several years (while fighting major depression without treatment, which certainly didn’t help things), when I got my current job through a temp position. It was supposed to be filing and data entry to help an HR department get caught up after open enrollment, just part-time for a month or two. But I paid attention to what the people around me were busiest with, asked them if there was anything I could do to help ease their work, and they started teaching and training me on various HR things. I was offered full-time within 3 weeks, hired away from the temp agency 8 months later, and while I’m still titled “Assistant” I’m doing work much closer to an analyst and my grandboss is working on getting a title change approved for me.

      And in the process, I realized that I love HR and it’s what I want to do for my career. Oddly enough, I dated a girl in college who was getting her degree in industrial-organizational psychology, and wanted to go into HR or organizational development. When I asked her why that appealed to her at one point, she said “People spend almost a third of their lives at work. Think of the kind of impact making people’s work-lives better can have!” And once I was in HR myself, even though we’d gone our separate ways years before, I suddenly understood. I can have an impact here, whether by helping make sure a promising candidate’s resume gets seen and encouraging the manager to interview them, helping make a new hire comfortable on their first day when they’re feeling overwhelmed by all the stuff they’re having to take in, counseling and guiding a manager dealing with a problem employee to make sure that the employee gets a fair chance while not unduly causing trouble for their coworkers, helping build the business case for upgrading our benefits package or adding new perks, coordinating employee appreciation and recognition programs…the list goes on. I realized that HR is the perfect (for me) behind-the-scenes way to have a positive impact on as many people’s lives as I reasonably can.

      I would never have considered HR specifically, until I realized it aligned really strongly with my beliefs and values around giving back and helping people, while still allowing me to stay somewhat behind the scenes which is what I prefer. Maybe you can look for something like that – not a specific job or career path, but a way to reach a job or career that allows you to practice your values in some way. Or is there a way you can do what you’re doing, but for a nonprofit that you believe in?

    14. Mark in Cali*

      1) I get real ill with people who I’ve talked to in the past who say, “Well what do you WANT to do.” You know that when they were 25 they didn’t know either. Now they have a family and a high profile manager job and a nice salary, but they don’t remember that they fell into our business the way so many others have: they needed a job and took a chance.
      2) I studied theatre in college and spent 6 years after working in the theatre in many ways. Took me 6 years to realize I didn’t like it and I had convinced myself to like it. I believe a lot of my coworkers in my business job have done the same, although it’s easier to like a job that you don’t like when there’s a nice paycheck (not so in the theatre). Felt like a hack when after four years of study and 6 years in the biz I turned my back on it cold turkey.
      3) Took me another 4 years in the business world to realize I don’t care for that which is why I’m studying computer science online. To get more to your question: it took me a few years to stop denying what I wanted to do for various reasons and embrace it. I want to program computers. I has taken me years to say that because there are 12 year olds who can program better than me and adult my age and old who might laugh at such a career change. I avoided making the decision to go into CS because I thought I wasn’t good enough. Do you have a deep desire like that too that you are admit to yourself? I did.
      4) A lot of the folks I go to school with online are in their 30s and 40s. Join us!
      5) Not that school is ALWAYS the answer. It was for me because a BA in Theatre didn’t led itself to going to grad school for CS.
      6) “I have a fear of change, so I’m unlikely to make a move.” Sorry, but that’s the key. We can offer our stories as inspiration but you have to find a way to change that.

      1. What do I want to do when I grow up?*

        I have been reduced to jagged tears by the “Well, what do you WANT to do?” question. I have avoided career conversations with well-connected people who think highly of me because I knew the first question was going to be “Well, what do you WANT to do?”

        1. epilo*

          Ditto.

          I *wanted* to be in theater for almost 12 years, before having that dream crushed by reality. I haven’t really been able to answer that question since.

          1. What do I want to do when I grow up?*

            I’m a former theater person as well. Is this a theater phenomenon? Recently had a really interesting chat with my also-former-theater-person spouse. My experience of auditioning was desperate hunger for acceptance and love. Spouse thought it was a fun way to play. That right there should tell you a lot about how we fared in the theater world!

        2. TL -*

          I like the thought around AAM that “what do you WANT to do?” isn’t always answering by, “Being an astronaut!”

          Sometimes the answer is “I want a 9-5 job where I don’t talk to too many people, I crunch a lot of numbers in Excel, and I have a good opportunity to get promoted.” or sometimes, “I want to talk to a lot of people, I want to work with databases, and I want to travel 40-50%.” Or, “I want a job with a lot of physical activity that gives me the chance to move into office work as I age.”

          It doesn’t always have to be about passion for a particular career. It can be a drive to find a job composed of parts you like. I know someone who was a janitor at a hospital because she wanted a good, steady job with predictable hours, low stress, decent paycheck, and she knew she was helping people who needed help. It wasn’t about the cleaning.

      2. Trillian*

        I developed an early distrust of people who asked that question, because if I answered it honestly, they’d tell me all the reasons I couldn’t do what I wanted to do. Not very useful when dealing with anyone advising me.

    15. animaniactoo*

      1st, make a list of the kinds of things you like to do.
      2nd, make a list of the kinds of things you’re *good* at doing. (double marks if you have experience using those skills, etc. in the workplace).
      3rd, make a list of the kinds of things you’re not good at and unlikely to ever be good at and want to avoid at all costs (sometimes, cutting out things is the most useful thing you can do as it narrows the field into things that have more of a shot of hitting the mark).

      Start filtering: What kinds of jobs fit these pieces? Hands-on work? Customer-facing? Nowhere near a customer please? Teamwork? Solitary work or relatively solitary? Creative work? Detail oriented? Big picture?

      Pick some careers that fit those categories, and start investigating them more. Do they sound interesting enough to pursue with more investment in them as a career vs a “for now job that pays the bills”?

      If you want to list some of this stuff here, I’m willing to bet commenters can start helping identify fields/careers that line up with your traits/wishes that you might not have thought of.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I think my ideal would be something where I have 50% of my time interacting with people and 50% of my time working on my own. I do like to have a job where I can go home at the end of the day and feel like I made a positive difference in someone’s life.

        Definitely an office person. I love working with Excel and organizing data (and, in fact, have been known to create spreadsheets for some of my hobbies). I’m fairly analytical and notice patterns easily. And I’m a huge believer in making things more efficient/less cumbersome.

        Probably the biggest negative is that I don’t drive so I wouldn’t want a position that required a lot of travel. I have pretty severe anxiety, so I prefer to be in comfortable, familiar spaces the majority of the time.

        1. Parenthetically*

          This screams Library Science to me, tbh. Also I am really excited for your show to come back, Amy, spreadsheets and all. ;)

        2. animaniactoo*

          Hmmm… the first thing that comes to my mind is something in the category of Risk Assessment.

        3. animaniactoo*

          Secondary is something that includes workflow streamlining or some such, possibly as a consultant (think long-term, come in, look around, analyze, make recommendations, help stay on track with new processes, etc. Project management might also be a good place to play.

        4. Blossom*

          Business analyst! (i.e. analysing business requirements to help improve processes, not the techy kind of BA that does hardcore stats – unless that appeals too! I just notice that some very different jobs get bundled under that same title).

      2. Bibliovore*

        This. I can’t highly recommend What Color is Your Parachute enough. Changed my life. Ex- theater person here. I’ve worked in theaters, bookstores, museums, in day care, telephone sales, publishing marketing and sales, being sales assistant, editorial assistant, and then got let go and with time on my hands made doing this workbook my job.

        Turns out that I don’t like working nights and weekends/ irregular hours. I like working with women. I like working in a clean environment. I like being around kids. I like working at a non-profit. I don’t like sales. I do like being passionate about the mission. I do like books. I love Children’s and Young Adult books. I am good at organizing events ( don’t love it but good at it) I like to work independently. A year later I entered library school for a graduate degree. I thought my “career” would be as a public children’s librarian. If any one had asked that was what I wanted to do.

        In every job there were some things I had to do that didn’t fit what I loved but I could give up.
        Since then. Public Children’s librarian in a busy inner city library. Worked nights and weekends. Had a short commute, lots of kids, high competency, some good, some bitter co-workers, passionate about the mission,loved the work.
        then as a school librarian, hated the commute (hour and sometimes a half on the subway) loved my coworkers and director and kids and parents and library. Total autonomy. Amazing personal and intellectual growth over 15 years. I grew to love teaching. In a city with high cost of living, economic insecurity.

        Now an academic librarian. Love my colleagues and director. Moved to a city in midwest known for their “quality of life” Passionate about the mission. Personal and intellectual growth, short commute. Total autonomy. Working on work/life balance.

        1. Bibliovore*

          Work/life balance. Took three vacation days at a spa in the desert. Seriously heaven. Spent anytime not sitting in mineral water working on a keynote. And talking about my work. (not in an obsessive way, it turned out that there were people whoHere’s the thing. I would have been totally anxious had I not worked on the keynote. Mr. Bibliovore likes to say that the powerpoint is locked the minute the speech ends.

    16. Isben Takes Tea*

      The thing I’m realizing is that we’ve been cultured to think that there is this period of growth (as a child and adolescent) and then as an adult you should be “arrived” at your Personhood, and have your Plan of the Rest of My Life. The thing is, you don’t need a plan. It’s totally okay not to have one, and enjoy becoming more You, exploring and learning and growing at your own pace. It’s okay not to have a vision board, a five-year plan, or a bucket list. (They can be helpful tools if you want more direction, but aren’t necessary for a fulfilled life.)

      So, Detective, you don’t need to worry about what you’re going to do the next 20-30 years of your life. Is this something you can see yourself doing for the next year or so? Then you’re fine! When it becomes something you no longer see yourself doing in another year or two, then you start looking for the next right step. You don’t know yet how your dreams and desires will change down the road, so I think it’s silly to try to predict them.

      I’m not advocating you don’t plan for the future at all, but you don’t need to be scared that you don’t have a complete journey mapped out. (Most people who do that never seem to end up where they thought they’d be, anyway.)

      You’re not alone!

      2. Agnodike*

        I agree so much with this! The best career advice I ever got came from my dad, who has done pretty much everything, from construction worker to university professor: “Sometimes a career path is only identifiable in retrospect.”

        With that in mind (because my dad is a smart guy and I respect his opinion), I’ve tried to look for work that is fulfilling, interesting, and helps me develop new skills and learn new things about myself and the world, and worried less about career-tracking. It’s worked out pretty great! My “career path” has been pretty non-linear, but even when I’ve changed industries or made an apparently totally unrelated move, I’ve been amazed by how many of my skills have transferred. I’m a clinician working in primary care now, and it’s astonishing how much I draw on the skills I learned when I was, for example, a museum guide. I love the work that I’m doing now, but I acknowledge that I might not love it forever, and if I don’t, I’ll do something else.

        I’m very lucky to have the education and resources to have access to lots of jobs, which has let me hop around some to get where I am now, and will let me hop around again if I want to. I recognize that as a privilege not everyone has, and I recognize that it’s not an approach that’s right for everyone – some people really do need stability and a clear path mapped out in front of them. But there’s nothing wrong with doing work that interests you, and that you’re good at, for awhile, and then moving on to something interesting where you have something to contribute in another field.

    17. zora*

      wow.. this is so weird, everything you said is so identical, I’m wondering if I wrote this in my sleep…

      Thanks for starting this conversation, I’ll be following the responses you get. And good luck to both of us on moving forward!!

    18. LKW*

      Well I’m not speaking from experience because I landed a great job that pays well and has a few career path options to follow (totally lucky I know). I’m not taking a straight line approach to my career either so I zig and zag as needed.

      There are plenty of books that target areas of interest like “Careers for people who like History” you could start there. There are plenty of good jobs with interesting career paths that you would never really know about when you’re making the grand career plans in college.

      Start there or ask yourself, what skills do you have, what jobs needs those skills or the reverse, what job do you want, do you have the skills and if not, how do you gain the skills?

    19. Parenthetically*

      YMMV, but career paths have to fit my broader life path for me to be content with them. If my goal is to leave work at work, keep my stress level low, pay the bills, and have a few weeks off to go to the beach, then a “career path” isn’t as important as just being decently employed. I’m not an ambitious person at all, and if I had my druthers, I’d work part time and spend most of my time in the garden or cooking or with our kids. My husband’s not particularly ambitious either, but his field pays a lot better than mine, and he enjoys his work, so he’s happy just to stay in the area he trained for and make most of our money so I can cut back to part-time work soon. I genuinely don’t think people need a laser-focused, step-by-step career path from now to retirement in order to thrive or reach their financial or personal goals. Sometimes it’s enough just to make the money, pay the bills, and live your life.

      If that kind of thinking makes sense to you, you can look at your personal long-term goals (early retirement? higher salary? better work-life balance? more travel opportunities? more job satisfaction? better opportunities to use your skills at work? more time for your hobbies?) see how your current situation lines up with them, and work out where changes would need to be made to better align with your goals. Maybe that can happen in your current job or workplace — a lateral move, a raise, a transfer, a promotion — or maybe you’ll get the sense that you need to do training X or degree Y to move into career Z, but can happily keep doing your current job in the meantime.

    20. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      I’m 43 and I am right there with you. It doesn’t help that both my parents and my sister had/have careers that they are passionate about and pretty much meant to do all along. (Parents are retired teachers, sister is a social worker/therapist.) And then here I am, professional dilettante, I suppose.

    21. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      For me, I’m still figuring it out! I finally went back to grad school for a CS degree after I kept gravitating towards Computer Science in whatever job I’ve been at. Now it’s a matter of “what sort of CS?” It took a few years because while I can do a lot of things… there’s not a whole lot I WANT to do. :D

      Someone here posted a good website in an open thread long ago–https://www.mynextmove.org/ . I found it interesting to see the potential based on current likes/dislikes.

      There was one other but I can’t think of it right now. I’ll post it if I remember.

      1. What do I want to do when I grow up?*

        There’s also Pivot by Jenny Blake, which seemed interesting… until the Library said it was due and I gave it back…

    22. Spelliste*

      I’m just a step or so beyond where you are right now, having identified very broadly the field/s I’m interested in (not-for-profit & related), so not sure if this will be useful or not. I’m 33, and this is the first time I’ve even tried to have a career plan, and it’s kind of overwhelming.

      After getting some really helpful information from wonderful people here on a recent open thread, I started compiling everything into a simple project management app. To do list items include: identify people in my life doing [interesting] work and talk to them; when I find an avenue I’m curious about, dig on LinkedIn to get a sense of how people get into the field or role; learn what development opportunities I currently have access to. I also have running lists of intriguing sectors and organizations to be researched. Also! List of what’s important to me in a role and organization.

      I’m a spreadsheet person, too, and have one going in which I record interesting job postings (key fields: org, org type, org size, mission, title, skill requirements). It’s beginning to shine some light on where my current skills might best apply, what skills are missing, and what longer term paths might look like.

      There may be a bit of “illusion of control” going on here, but breaking it out into concrete pieces has made it easier to begin tackling the grand question and to explore possible avenues a bit more efficiently. It’s made things less daunting, for sure.

      Tl;dr – turn it into a project with concrete, low risk, easy to digest parts. “Ask Jane about accounting” and “read Teapot Tester career profiles” are way easier than “decide what to do with your life.” :)

    23. Wandered and Was Lost*

      Late to the party here, but I didn’t get it “figured out” until I was in my early 40s after a very winding path. I became a teacher in my late 20s because I really didn’t know what else to do (terrible reason, by the way), and predictably I hated it. I did some paralegal work for a few years, but working with attorneys got old really fast. I then pretty much became a vocational drifter, and ended up doing some Census work in 2010.

      I became a supervisor, and in my city there was me and one other supervisor who oversaw operations for the other side of the city. We worked well enough together, and when the Census ended, we all went our own separate ways . I ended up taking a crappy job at our county jail the following year, and I had been there a few months when the other Census supervisor called me out of the blue. She had become a recruiter, and one of her clients had an opening for an editor. She had me come in to take an editing test, which I passed, and I ended up being hired. That was the break I needed. I took to that work like a duck took to water. I did really well, got promoted a few times, and when the company fell on really hard times, I was able to find another such job that liked me so much it took 9 days from my resume submission to be offered the job. I’m still there and very happy.

      So, take heart. It doesn’t work out like this for everyone, but sometimes it can “click” in a very strange way, even at our “advanced age.”

  12. Amadeo*

    Not a work problem, but a work yay! A department for whom I did a total website overhaul (I work on the web team at a little university) brought me a beautiful handmade bowl from someone in their ceramics classes (teacher or student, not sure) and a big gift bag full of bags of candy to put in it and a lovely card earlier this week. I was just doing my job, but I really appreciated their gesture (especially the bowl – I love handmade stuff).

    What stories do you have about a gesture of appreciation for what you thought was just your routine duties?

    1. Fiona the Lurker*

      Well, it’s a long time ago now, but I did some extra work for a member of my department in the hospital and she totally unexpectedly came up with a gift voucher from a local store by way of thanks. Nothing since, though, which is kind of telling…

    2. AndersonDarling*

      Someone got me a 6 pack of soda I like. I know the cost was just a few bucks, but it was a HUGE gesture. I was just doing my regular supporting job, but it was a new manager and they really appreciated my help.

    3. Victoria, Please*

      Aw, that is so nice! Good for you.

      I get thanked in person a lot, but that’s it.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      I got a $25 gift card from a woman who runs a program I helped with. It was accompanied by a lovely handwritten card. Total surprise– this is my job! But I really appreciated it. More helpfully, the coordinators there have spoken to my superiors multiple times about how much they love me. That goes a long way!

    5. Spice for this*

      This is from 10 years ago. The VP of our department gave all of us a $250 gift certificate to the local mall. I was so happy I could not speak!

    7. Annie Mouse*

      I’ve got a hug off a patient’s daughter one day, and a packet of biscuits off a different patient’s husband another. For me, it’s the smiles, hand shakes and thank yous that go a long way to making me feel appreciated.

    8. Isben Takes Tea*

      When I was working at Noah’s Bagels, one of a team of construction guys who came in to order went next door to the drug store and got a little 3″ potted flower as my tip. (It sounds a little weird as I type it out, but it was very friendly and not at all awkward or creepy.) It was really the best tip I ever got.

    9. B*

      My coworkers decorated my desk and got me a 8 pack of the fizzy water I like to celebrate me coming back to work after having been off for 10 days due to a medical procedure. It was really touching.

    10. Delta Delta*

      I once got a little flowering plant from a client who was very happy with the outcome of her case. I was happy too, but I really felt like it was just me doing my job. That was a long time ago and I still have the plant. It’s grown and when it flowers it reminds me of her.

      Related: I was once traveling with my husband and in-laws, and there was some serious drama about an airline losing my FIL’s checked bag and it getting delivered to the right place. We had to call a hotel we checked out of multiple times until we finally tracked down the bag. I felt bad for having bothered them so much I brought some flowers for them to put on the reception desk.

    11. Taylor Swift*

      I got cookies for helping out another division once. Really it was a very simple task for me to do, but apparently was incredibly helpful for them. The cookies were very much appreciated.

    12. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Years ago I worked as a techie in a computer lab at a local community college. Student comes in looking for help with an assignment that involved some database programming. Summer semester so the place is dead quiet. I’m also teaching a course that includes DB coding at night school so I was able to help her figure out the problems with the project. Spent an entire afternoon working with her since there was so little going on that day.

      She heard me mention that I was going to a party Friday night. Mid day Friday she shows up and sets a bottle of Southern Comfort on my desk to thank me for the help and tells me now I have something to take to the party with me. Where I proceeded to introduce several friends to the divine gift that we call Southern Comfort!

    13. MsMaryMary*

      My first job out of college, I was the senior (by about nine months) member of a team of entry level folks. Our team lead was new to her role and still working on her soft management skills, so I did a lot of informal coaching and training for my teammates. At the end of our huge project, they had We Love Mary Day. They got me flowers and a very sweet card, and took me out to happy hour after work.

    14. Jules the First*

      When I worked for the phone company, a guy sent me home-baked cookies after I managed to get his broadband up and running immediately when all the systems were saying it needed an engineer visit. I never got to eat them, though, since he sent them to our local office and my office was about 600 miles away. I’m told they were tasty, though!

    16. Alice Ulf*

      One of our clients was moving out of her apartment and gave me and my boss her old microwave as a thank you last week. :D It was much appreciated, because our old one was made in probably the early ’90s. We were a little afraid to be in the same room with it when it was on.

      You can see through the door now! The tray is made of glass and actually turns!

      It’s the little things.

      1. LibLady*

        The Auto shop teacher just repaired my book cart that had its wheels fall off, and he even bought parts for it and did it without asking me to pay for the part. (I offered when I found out he had bought a part). I made some brownies for him.

    17. Z*

      The partner I work for has a habit of bringing every assistant in the firm a little gift when he goes out of town — cute post it notes, shortbread, pin, maple syrup — and then denies that he is the one who left them. It happens a couple of times a year. It’s really rather nice of him.

  13. BRR*

    How do you feel appreciated at work? Right now I don’t feel appreciated at all. My manager has noticed that I’m at BEC and has stepped up saying how much she values everything I have accomplished but for some reason it feels meaningless (even though I would say she is being genuine). I felt more appreciated by my last manager/job even when she decided that I needed to be let go.

    1. Jill of All Trades*

      I feel most appreciated when people don’t just acknowledge that I’ve done a good job, but actively use the work I’ve done in ways that allow them to perform better. (I do a lot of project management and administrative support, so this is not too far fetched.) Verbal acknowledgement is appreciated, but the biggest thing is seeing better results happen because of the support work I do, and being actively kept in the loop, thought of, and told about those results as they happen.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      What did your last manager do to make you feel appreciated? If it’s a matter of more feedback, you can ask for that, like a check-in meeting or lunch. If it’s praise or acknowledgment on a regular basis, that can be so much harder– sometimes, all I need is, “Good work on this”, but I can’t always ask for that.

      Do you think this is a symptom of you not liking the job and the commute? I know that’s been an issue. If your manager knows you’re kind of losing your luster, this might be the time to ask for an extra work-from-home day. And if you’re really losing it, maybe you can take a couple of days off soon?

    3. ExceptionToTheRule*

      I take a week off and let people remember what it’s like when I’m not around to do the stuff I do without them noticing.

      1. Jadelyn*

        So glad I wasn’t drinking my coffee when I read this comment. Maybe I need to do the same thing here – let them flounder for a few days and maybe they’ll finally take a serious look at my request for a raise when I get back, lol.

      3. Worker B*

        I did that and came back to a giant mess that I had to sort through myself, with all my coworkers telling me to hurry up. They’re not going to get the message until I’m finally able to hand in my resignation notice and then they’ll be on their own til they fill the position (which will be at least a year given how slow they’ve been in the past).

      5. Fortitude Jones*

        Same. Every time I come back from vacation, my backup and my supervisor both say, “OMG, I’m so glad your back!” And my supervisor told me during our January one-on-one that she always says she can’t wait until I get back whenever I’m out because I deal with some seriously unhinged people, lol.

    4. Delta Delta*

      Uh oh. It’s hard to be at that spot – when you went a long time without feeling appreciated and then when it finally starts it’s too late. I have been there and done that, and I just ended up having to leave for greener pastures. Needed to make a complete change because it didn’t feel repairable.

    5. Lisa*

      For me, the best possible way a manager can show appreciation is by listening to what I’m not happy with and then *actually doing something about it*. Words are nice and all, but the real line for me is whether my manager thinks I’m valuable enough to be worth going to bat for. When I feel well supported, I feel appreciated; when I don’t, no amount of praise or positive feedback or thanks will make me feel like the work I do is considered valuable.

      1. NaoNao*

        My favorite thank you of all time:

        I used to be a student tutor for my fellow college students. I specialized in students for whom English was a second language, learning challenges, and students with emotional struggles. (I didn’t choose it, I was just “the ESL whisperer” as they called it!) I had a student who had been shot in the head (!!) and lived, in a gang fight in LA. He suffered brain damage as a result. He came to me very scared and uncertain and also a little defensive about not being comfortable using Standard English to write. I told him “First, AAVE is a recognized language and I recognize it’s importance. But, the thing is, we use different voices and languages for different needs. You have to know the system and work IN the system to finally break free of the system and do your own thing.” (This magically worked!)
        We had a mantra: We were doing it for “Little [Student’s Name]”, his young son, who he loved but couldn’t care for due to his injuries and brain damage.
        When he raised his grade from a fail to a high C after tons of hard work, he asked me what my favorite movie was. I responded that it was “L.A. Story.” Next time he came in he had a well loved VHS tape bought second hand of…L.A. Story. It was his thank you for me. I have saved it ever since, even though I don’t have a VCR anymore!

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        For me, the best possible way a manager can show appreciation is by listening to what I’m not happy with and then *actually doing something about it*.

        Agree with this too. My supervisor is getting better at realizing when I’m reaching a breaking point (especially now that she knows I’m looking for a new job) and reassigning some of my files to people with lighter workloads than mine so I can get a reprieve from dealing with high volume nonsense and can better focus on more complex claims. It’s not always feasible in our division though, so that’s a big reason I’m looking to move on.

    6. LabTech*

      I’m not feeling appreciated in my current position. I’m in the middle of a big project getting my workplace up to compliance standards (or as close as we can reasonably get, for a small lab that’s never done anything close to it).

      It’s lots of work, yet neither my boss nor the client we’re doing it for seem to … understand that it’s a Big Deal, or even appreciate the work I’m doing. It’s not like I’m making templates and writing lengthy, technical documents for the sheer joy of doing tons of extra paperwork.

      Combined with how most of my co-workers ignore the crap out of me, and that I’m desperately underpaid for the high COL area and for the level of work I’m doing for these projects (which is a step or two up from what I signed up for), and I need a new job yesterday.

    7. copy run start*

      Acknowledgment, preferably spontaneous. A quick “good job” or “hello” is all I ask for.

      Today I was feeling a bit bummed until I ran into the CEO and he said hello, and then another VP kindly bought me hot cocoa. I feel very special today, and a bit awed to be working for a company where the higher ups are so sincere and accessible. Such a drastic change from my last job where I was ignored/beat up on for years.

    8. Theletter*

      Time to ask for a raise, or ask about the timeline/achievements needed for a promotion. There is no appreciation in this world like cold hard cash.

  14. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I start a higher-paying temporary position on Monday! I gave notice on Wednesday, since it’s not work with benefits and I couldn’t afford to miss more than two days of pay if I was terminated on the spot from my current contract. But my current boss wasn’t mad, and I think I am going to be leaving on good terms.

      1. Overeducated*

        Awesome! I think good temp manager’s are understanding about things like that.

    2. PollyQ*

      Congrats on the pay bump, and well-done on keeping the current employer happy.

      I’m curious though–how are you getting your temp jobs? My only experience has been with temp agencies, and they wouldn’t have been happy with me leaving one assignment for another.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        It’s a super niche thing- I got my law degree and am just starting out as a lawyer. The easiest way to make money while trying to get on with a firm permanently is to temp.

  15. Chronic Oversharer*

    What strategies do you have to keep from oversharing personal information in the office? I’m kind of desperate for some social interaction at my work (the culture isn’t really what it was advertised to be and I’m working on getting out but in the meantime…) so I often initiate conversations and probably overshare. I’ve even pointed out my oversharing and asked my primary victim-coworker to let me know if I go too far but she’s brushed it off and said it’s fine. I can’t tell if it really is fine and I just misunderstand the boundaries of the office/the professional world in general or what. I’m fairly new (2 1/2 years working professionally), so I don’t have a lot to compare this environment to.

    1. Buffy*

      Maybe think of conversations like Facebook statuses? Only say the info you’d be comfortable sharing across the internet.

    2. Newby*

      You could try to limit converstation to non-personal topics like a tv show you have been watching, a new movie coming out, sports, books, cultural events happening in your city, ect. It’s hard to overshare with those topics. Steer away from health, family, religion and politics if you don’t know where the line is.

      1. Daisy May*

        I tried to avoid those subjects, but someone always asks if I’m married; what my husband does; where he works, etc. I’m at a loss for how to respond without providing that info. I mean, it’s not really any of their business, but I don’t want to be rude to new coworkers.

        1. Thlayli*

          My husband is in the army and when people ask for more specifics I just say “sorry I’m not allowed to tell you any more than that he’s in the army”. That gets really funny reactions. Most people assume he does something more interesting than he probably does lol.

          You could try something similar. Just say “sorry we’re not supposed to tell people what his job is”. If they push you could add “well I could tell you but then I’d have to kill you”. People won’t know if you’re joking or not but they’d look bad if they pushed for more.

          Or you could say something that’s an obvious joke like he does gay porn (or something less offensive lol.)

          Or you could ask ur husband to invent something he is ok with you telling people. Honestly asking someone what their partner does is such a common topic of conversation that his insistence you tell them nothing is probably going to cause problems for you even if they are minor ones. Tell him he can invent whatever he wants to be you just want something you can tell people so you don’t look antisocial. He can be an astrophysicist or something.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I try to mirror the amount of information being shared with me. For example, if you ask your coworker how her weekend was and she says, “it was great; how was yours?” then the appropriate response would be something along similar lines, rather than delving into a detailed account of how you spent your entire Saturday.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Great advice, because it renews itself daily. Each day you watch to see what other people are sharing and you limit yourself to your version of what they have. If we are thinking of matching others, that requires us to have that constant awareness of what is flying out of our mouths now.

    4. Jill of All Trades*

      As someone who is pretty socially awkward, I try to keep the conversation to a few basic topics:
      – sports (which I know nothing about and generally don’t participate in anyway);
      – who got sick around the office and when;
      – work venting with certain coworkers;
      – and the general, “What did you do this weekend?” “Oh, you know, I hung out around the house. Looking forward to sleeping in on Saturday.”

      Anything beyond those topics I usually smile and change the subject.

    5. Isben Takes Tea*

      I would take her at her word that it’s fine with her, unless she’s giving you direct signals otherwise.

      I’ve been in a similar situation–I want to chat and connect with coworkers, but I don’t want to “be friends” and go to the gym together/meet up on the weekends/etc. So I don’t share a lot of personal details, but I’ve bonded with people over “The Great British Baking Show” and love of puns and things like that. (I’ve also been appreciative of other people reaching out and starting chatty conversations with me, since I never want to “bother” someone who’s working but still want to connect with them.)

      If you’re worried about oversharing, say, what you did over the weekend, I’d try to keep things focused on what you did and not who you did it with.

    6. Leslie Knope*

      I find that my oversharing in the office drastically decreases when I have other social outlets outside of work. For example, instead of chit chatting and invariably sharing way too much with people in the break room during lunch, I’ll go on a walk alone and call my sister. I try to be an “enigma” and share only things that wouldn’t have any ramifications for myself. For example, I can share about a funny video from YouTube, but maybe won’t rehash a conversation with a close friend who has some crazy drama.

      1. Chronic Oversharer*

        I’m pretty sure this is exactly my problem. I’ve lived here for almost three years and still haven’t made any solid social connections (in part because I’m honest-to-God too busy). Maybe I need to make a mental note of whatever I want to spit out in the moment and give myself permission to text it to a close friend later or something…

        Thanks both to you, Leslie Knope (your username is great), and all others above.

    7. Lissa*

      I think this might also depend on what you mean by oversharing. If you mean just talking a lot about relatively neutral activities, that’s less dangerous than say, going into detail about a sensitive problem you/someone else might be having. I really like the advice about mirroring. I’d look at it like..ok, I’m a nerd but maybe think of it like if oversharing was on a scale from 1 to 10 and 1 was “pleasantries with no personal information” and 10 was “share everything”, a 3 might be “this weekend I went to a book fair and picked up a new mystery novel by an author I’ve been wanting to try” or something. I’m bad at examples! But then just don’t go more than 1 or 2 levels above what the other person shares — so then you can share more if they “match” you, but then don’t if you notice they never go above a “my weekend was fine” level of detail.

    8. Feathers McGraw*

      I’ve been in two minds about replying as I think my feedback is more critical than some of the other replies. I think it’s not really okay to ask her to tell you if it’s too much, sorry. That implies that you have mo filter and lots of people will be too polite, or feel too awkward, to say anything even if it is too much. Is it about being fairly new to the workplace or not being able to read people’s signals? Are you distracting your colleagues with too much chat?

  16. Not Karen*

    (Last week’s open thread was pretty dead so I’m posting this again.)

    Could anyone here speak to the differences in consulting vs. industry? I’d be especially interested if you’re industry experience is nonprofit. My therapist suggested I might like consulting more because the projects are short term and varied. To be clear, I mean working for a consulting firm – I’m not interested in being an independent consultant/running my own business.

    A couple specific points of interest:
    1) salary – according to some reports consulting pays a lot more
    2) work hours – I’m not interested in a position where >40 hours per week is the norm

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Speaking only about management consulting firms (BCG, McKinsey, OW, etc.), with the caveat that this is all second-hand information, my understanding is that consultants can easily work 60 hours or more a week, and travel is paramount. Consultants I know (most of whom are junior or mid-level consultants) travel Monday through Friday and basically work non-stop. I have one friend who barely gets to go home to her own apartment on the weekends because of her work travel schedule. She makes a lot of money, but she’s constantly working.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep, the big $$$ consultants need to travel. If you are in a big city, there are probably specialty firms that handle local clients. I understand the money is a bit better than being an employee, but it’s not as good as the consultants who travel. But, the traveling consultants I know are on the project manager level so they would be making good money regardless.

      2. Chicago*

        This can vary quite a bit by firm – McKinsey does seem to work their consultants into the ground, but other firms are striving for more work-life balance. I am at a Big Four firm and travel Monday-Thursday and am typically able to unplug for much of the weekend! It will all depend on the project, the work, whether you’re on deadline, and so on. But yes, 45-50 hours a week is to be expected; more if it’s a critical time in the project, etc.

    2. Jill of All Trades*

      I work at a consulting company on a junior level, and here’s what I’ve found: If you want to be a higher level consultant, it will almost certainly require working more than 40 hours a week (I usually work 40-45, but the senior consultants sometimes work upwards of 60) and traveling extensively in some cases.

      I don’t have a ton of work experience prior to joining this company, but can say that I was mid-level at my last company and was making approximately the same salary that I do here in an entry level position. That value and salary goes up pretty substantially with more specific subject expertise, which I have virtually none of.

      1. Jill of All Trades*

        For reference, I work for a mid-size consulting company that specializes in international compliance.

    3. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Also, sometimes I think folks overplay the “benefits” of the varied work. I’ve seen plenty of McKinsey people absolutely stuck with a horrible client and then the contract extended and they still worked the hours and produced even though it was a miserable, miserable situation for all involved. Also, a lot of issues start to look similar across industries and companies and projects are run the same way with a lot of running interference on client issues. You will never forget who is in charge – the client, your line manager, project manager, etc. It can be a lot to deal with.

      However – are you talking management consulting or are you looking at more specialized work, e.g consultancies that do stuff for non-profits (not sure who that is or what they would do but I guess someone must)? Because the big guys are a) difficult to get into and b) will run you ragged whereas a small, specialized consultancy may not.

      vs Industry – I work internal on strategy projects and get a lot of variety and I don’t ever need to leave. Its a nice set up I have going on now but man Im bored, probably just burn out from years of breaking everything down the same way, looking at the same pieces, running every project the same way, running into the same problems.

      1. Gestelle*

        I work for a consultancy agency that does work for non-profits. I will say that the work really isn’t that varied because we’re pretty focused on one aspect of what we do for non-profits. And we have long-term clients, so you pretty much work with the same folks unless you get promoted or a client leaves or a new client is acquired, in which cases teams sometimes switch up.

        I’m mid- to low-level and I tend to work on average about 42 hours a week. It can easily go to 50 during the busy period, which is about 4-6 weeks of the year.

    4. Rex*

      I agree with all the comments about consulting firms and hours. Within nonprofits themselves it is definitely doable to work 40 hour weeks, but I would be really upfront with them about that, because there are certainly some where that is *not* the norm. I think it really depends on what *kind* of work you are doing, too. If, for example, you are doing organizing, crazy nontraditional hours are probably to be expected. If you’re doing prospect research in development, 9-5 work is not that unusual, with maybe some occasional evening hours. Not Karen, can you tell us more about what kind of work you’re trying to do within the nonprofit world?

      1. Not Karen*

        Sorry, I should’ve mentioned that above! I’m a data analyst with experience in medical research. For instance, according to my research, Truven Health Analytics is a consulting firm in my field.

    5. LKW*

      Consultant here with one of the big firms. I love it particularly because no two projects are identical. Sometimes I am on an 8 week project sometimes 4 months, it varies based on the nature of the project, the phase of work etc. My current one is 2+ years and in that time I’ve gone through several phases and SOWs and in parallel I’ve also done small projects with two other clients. You end up finding your specialization and working either within an industry (automotive, finance, health care) or focused on a particular technology and moving across industries (like SAP or Salesforce). Regardless, even if you specialize, you are still working on different projects with different needs and different clients so things are always changing.

      I won’t lie – I travel 80% of the time. I am almost never home. I live in hotels and sometimes have “vending machine dinner” because my schedule is so crappy. I work ridiculous hours. Some days I start at 6 am and stop at 9pm. Some days are longer. Some days are normal hours. Some projects are awful and the clients are awful. Sometimes the client is wonderful and it’s a true partnership. I have been lucky, I like my company and I like the people from my company, within my industry, within my division a lot. But it’s a big company and I could live next door to someone who works for my company who specializes in another industry and I would never ever know unless I saw they carried the same company-issued laptop bag with the same company issued branded luggage tag. It’s definitely not for everyone.

    6. LC*

      I’m a consultant at a small PR firm. I like it much better than working in-house for the reason your therapist mentioned: the variety keeps things interesting. When one client is having a bad (or boring) week, there are others to occupy your time. I never feel like I’m stuck the way I did when my former employers were in a rut.

      That being said, client work can be much more demanding of your time than in-house. On paper I work 9-6, but I’m always on call in case a client needs something at the last second. That’s not to say I can’t unwind after work or on weekends–I do! But the nature of consulting is that you help multiple clients through tough spots, meaning you’ll be in crisis mode more than in an in-house position.

    7. MsMaryMary*

      I don’t work for a big consulting firm like BCG or McKinsey, but I do work in professional services and my title is consultant. My job is not all short term projects. Most of my clients have an annual, recurring large project and the occasional one off project. I’m not an accountant, but think of it as tax season + a merger or divestiture. I also spend time on account management responsibilities (admin, billing, etc), relationship building (social activities, hosting seminars), and new business support (RFP responses, finalist meetings). I’d say I spend 20% of my time or less on truly short term projects.

      I make a good salary and while I don’t work 80 hour weeks anymore, I do have a fair amount of early morning or evening client meetings.

      It also sounds like you’d be switching careers. There’s a good chance your entry level role would not be client facing, and you’d end up doing very similar work over and over for different clients. Not nearly as varied as you’d think.

  17. Ghostwriter*

    Any tips for starting a new job on a strong note? I’m about to start my second full-time job and a little nervous.

    2. LQ*

      First impressions really matter, so on the first week be who you want people to think of you as, it will cement their view of you and then you can be human and if you flub and are different they’ll write it off because their brains are already set to think of you as a certain way. (This doesn’t work if they are radically different, but if it is an amplification it will work.)…and also it will help cement it into your own head.

      Don’t say “at my old job…”

      Really watch for what other people do and try to figure out what the “norms” are.

      For me I don’t plan anything afterwork or on the weekend for a couple weeks if possible, I’m really introverted and trying to do all the new high energy human stuff is exhausting. If it is for you, be honest and give yourself a break. If it isn’t…you’re magic :)

      Make notes at the end of the day of what you learned, what you think went well, what went poorly, what you want to try to do the next day. Even if you never look at this it is a good sort of personal debrief to do.

      1. Ghostwriter*

        I am more like you, but I’m going to have a temporary two hour each way commute. Plenty of time to decompress. :) Thanks for the tips!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Each day try to learn a couple people’s names and something about them. I find that knowing the people I work with carries me farther than almost anything else.

      Beyond that make sure you actually read anything they give you to read.

      Of course be pleasant, but also be willing to help others. This starts with simple stuff like having the presence of mind to hold a near by door open for someone carrying an arm load of stuff. Little things like that are noticed and appreciated.

    4. Squeeble*

      Try to remember the names of people you meet, and make a point of greeting them by name during your first few weeks. I know, many people are super bad with names, but this little move goes a long way for me.

    5. Rex*

      Get plenty of sleep. Expect to come home exhausted for at least the first week or so from absorbing all the new information. Ask lots of questions (but not stuff covered on the written material they give you). Ask people what they think is going well and what isn’t. Do a lot of listening in the first few meetings. Pay attention to office norms.

      1. Emi.*

        +1 for exhaustion. When I started my current job, I was coming home and flopping on the couch right away, and at one point burst into tears because I just couldn’t deal with my husband being so demanding as to ask me what I wanted for dinner.

    6. OhBehave*

      I started a new job 3 weeks ago after having been employed with the same company for 20 years.

      Take notes. Lots of notes. You will be learning new systems and the more you write down, the further along you will be in the process. When you have some moments to yourself, refine your notes because we often miss details in the midst of learning.

      Do not make disparaging remarks against yourself. i.e. “I should have known that. I’m so dumb.”

      Give yourself grace. You’re in the honeymoon period. Everything is awesome. Days are flying past because you are learning so much and are so excited.

      Even if you don’t know someone, say Good Morning. It’s just a nice thing to do.

      I am a visual learning and a ‘do while I learn’ kind of gal. Embrace any video training, and make notes as well. Research your company and know the ins and outs. Learn the language.

      Have fun and pat yourself on the back for being able to learn something new.

    7. AJennifer*

      I see several comments about taking notes, and I agree with that. I’d expand on it though. Ask your manager to review your notes and give you feedback to make sure you’re understanding tasks and concepts in your job. It should only take your manager a few minutes at a time to confirm your notes are accurate and if they’re not, she’d rather spend some extra time with you to refine and clarify them now versus dealing with correcting mistakes down the road.

      On a co-worker level, be positive about being there and resist discussing personal or work drama, regardless of what they might want to share with you. You’re happy to be there and want to do well at your job and that’s what you want to convey for now. Avoid topics that are divisive and stick to things that won’t make you or anyone uncomfortable or make people ‘wonder’ about you.

  18. bassclefchick*

    I’ve been chatting with a career counselor as part of my requirements for unemployment benefits. She said that I should have a “professional summary” on my resume. I understand it’s a bit different than an objective statement, but what do you think? Is this a thing now or does it seem too close to an objective statement?

    She also said (and I believe others on this site have said the same thing) that it’s not necessary to put your full address on the resume, just phone number and email. Is that right? None at all or is just city and state acceptable? I mean, you still put the full address on the cover letter (don’t you?!) so it seems odd to leave it off the resume.

    Any advice would be appreciated. I have now been unemployed for 2 months with no offers yet and have been a temp for the past 5 years. CLEARLY, I am doing something very wrong.

    1. katamia*

      I have something professional summary-esque on my resume (bullet points, not sentences). I use it more as a catch-all for things that I think might make me look better that don’t really fit elsewhere on my resume (language skills, computer skills, other things my job history doesn’t communicate well). And I change it up, too–if I’m applying for a tutoring job, it’ll look different than if I’m applying for an admin job.

      I put my full address on my resume and don’t think I’ve encountered any problems from doing so. But it’s not on my cover letters since I just put those in the body of the email, and it’s weird to follow Official Business Letter Format in an email.

      I do get a fair amount of interviews when I’m applying to jobs. I can’t say that these things are the reason for getting interviews, but they also don’t seem to be getting too in my way, either.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think you have to know your area where you are applying, when it comes to addresses. Rural areas, like mine, it might look really odd, like why would you NOT say where you live, what are you hiding and so on.

    2. Allison*

      A short, matter of fact summary can be useful to someone screening resumes. Your field, industry, level, years of experience, and some of your hard skills. The difference is that this just summarizes the kind of professional you are, an objective states what you’re looking for.

      As for your address, you can leave that off. You won’t get dinged for having it, but it does look old fashioned. Since the employer probably isn’t mailing you anything in response to your application, they just need to know what city or town you live in, so they know if you’re local.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        That actually sounds like a great idea. I’d have to really think about the qualifications that would actually set me apart from other applicants. It’s not a place for the ho-hum statement.

        1. Allison*

          It’s not about setting yourself apart, it’s about convincing the resume reader that you’re qualified for the job you applied for. No one will care how special, stellar, awesome, or unique you are if you don’t have the background or skills they’re looking for.

    3. Audiophile*

      My employment counselor in my state said something similar. That I should have a professional summary, as well as moving my skills to the top and separating technical and key skills. I’m fine with the summary suggestion, but moving skills to the top seems strange to me.

      I’ve never had anyone suggest remove your address and I think it would be pretty glaring and might not reflect well on the applicant.

      What is your background in? What kind of jobs are you focusing on?

        1. Audiophile*

          Yeah that was the other suggestion, that I add my Linkedin url. I guess I would save more space by just having city, state, phone, and email information listed.

    4. Random*

      I never put my full address on anything. Only city and state. I have never used a professional summary, it’s doubtful they will read that.

    5. Mimmy*

      I started using a professional summary (I think I call mine a “qualifications” summary) this past fall, which I tailored to specific positions. A career counselor suggested it to me because a recruiter or hiring manager is not going to want to take the time to read through the entire resume (mine is 2 pages) to see if you’re qualified. This summary is a snapshot of your experience and career. I think it helped me with my recent job offers – I only wish I’d thought to use one sooner :(

    6. Rachel in NYC*

      I would guess this is field specific. I have no clue in what fields it would be appropriate in but I would suggest finding a friend who has had some career success that you think has a really good resume/cover letter and will be honest with you (and for you to be willing to take hear what the friend says) and ask them what they think is holding you back.

      For example, cover letters are my weakness. I write horrible awful cover letters, which is problematic because you need to get past the gatekeeper to get an interview which I tend to do pretty well at.

    7. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Yes, I suggest these for people now too. They’re not objectives. The idea is to provide an overall framing for your candidacy, setting the hiring manager up to see the rest of your resume through that lens.

    8. The OG Anonsie*

      Probably field-specific, but since I changed industries recently I have a blurb at the top of mine that sort of… I guess highlights what I want everyone to focus on that’s a common thread through my work history.

      So a lot of my work history is Sugar Bowl Management with elements of Sugar Bowl Design and Sugar Bowl Production. But now I work in Teapot Design, so I have a little two-line thing at the top talking about how I am a boss designer with a long and illustrious history of designing awesome stuff of all kinds.

    9. Master Bean Counter*

      As someone who has looked at a few resumes this week let me give you my perspective.

      Professional summary-If you use this, do so wisely. It shouldn’t be longer than three sentences, or filled with jargon. do either of those and my eyes are glazing over at the top of your resume. If you aren’t sure about how to execute this feature, leave it off. I don’t miss the summaries when they aren’t there. What does work is 2-3 sentences that are targeted to the employer and that can pique curiosity.

      Address-City and State are good. Street address is unnecessary. If you are out of state, give me a hint why you are looking for work in my area. Even if it is weak. I’d rather know that you are tired of the snow, rather than guessing why you are applying from 2000 miles away.

      Also if you are high-level in the accounting field and want to live somewhere warm, I’d love to talk to you. :)

    10. bassclefchick*

      Thanks for the feedback, everyone! Much appreciated. The good news is, I applied for a good job with this resume and managed to score a phone interview, so the resume did its job!

      Rachel in NYC – cover letters are my weakness, too. I really suck at them. Even though I’ve poured over the cover letter archives several times.

      Master Bean Counter – LOL. Though I WOULD love to live in a warm climate (I really hate snow, ice, and cold), my husband does not. And I am not high-level in the accounting field. Darn it.

    11. Blossom*

      I don’t put my address on my cover letter… My cover letter goes in the body of the email that I attach my CV (resume) to, or (for online application forms) the box they have provided for “supporting comments”.

      I du put it on my CV (resume), though. No reason, just never thought not to, and it’s still the norm where I live.

    12. copy run start*

      Yes to both.

      Professional statement: how awesome you are. Objective: what you want from a company. Better to do nothing than an objective, but do the professional statement if possible.

      I haven’t put my full address on in ages. Not even on my cover letter. Never had a problem. That real estate can be used for more valuable things.

  19. katamia*

    How do you know how much work you can take on in the future? I’m a freelancer and I tell my bosses how much work I want weekly, but since I don’t know how easy or hard what I get is going to be and how I’m going to feel throughout, I feel like I’m always guessing wrong. There are some weeks when I could have done WAY more work than I told them to send me (and they set up a weekly schedule in advance, so I can’t ask for more) and others where I’m drowning, to the point where I don’t eat, miss deadlines by a few hours, etc.

    I can’t figure out if there’s a way to predict this or not. I have a horrible sense of time (ADHD), a couple minor but chronic health problems, and family members with not-so-minor chronic health problems who sometimes need my help. Is there some trick to this that everyone knows but me?

    1. Judy*

      Estimating is a skill just like the skills you use for your work. One of the best ways I’ve seen to develop your estimates is to keep track. Start keeping a list of what you estimated vs. what it actually took. It’s even better if you have a way to quantify the estimates, in software that’s lines of code or function/feature points. Having written records means you can look at a project and say, that’s close to what the widget project last month was, it took me 9 hours for that.

      It sounds like you don’t know that much about the projects when you tell them how much work you are requesting. Is there a way for them to quantify the projects into some sort of range?

      1. katamia*

        They do quantify the projects, it’s just that it’s not a particularly useful (to me, anyway) way to quantify them. To go back to my metaphor from an earlier open thread, I tell them I can make X teapots per week and which days I can make them on. They don’t differentiate between sending me assignments for basic teapots, winged teapots, teapots with pretty patterns, etc. I could get all winged teapots one week, all basic teapots the next, a mix the third week, etc. I get paid different amounts for different kinds of teapots, which is standard for the field and is also their way of acknowledging that certain types of teapots are more work than others.

        It’s really hard to figure out how long things take me–some days I’m sick but still need to work (my health issues mean I’m often not at 100%, but some days I’m at 75%, other days I’m at 30%, etc.), other times I have doctor appointments or need to help with errands, other days I just can’t get it together (presumably a combination of ADHD and my general dislike of/lack of motivation for what I do).

        1. Newby*

          Can you ask them to count one winged teapot as two regular ones when specifying how many you can do? Or use some other ratio?

          1. katamia*

            There’s no way to do that currently on the website where I submit my schedule every week. I’ve been considering suggesting a feature like that, but I don’t know anyone else who does what I do, so I don’t know if my issues are normal (IOW, that other people might like to specify what kind of teapots they’d like to do each week) or whether not knowing what kinds of teapots you’ll be making is less of an issue for other people.

            1. Newby*

              Can you try e-mailing your boss (or whoever makes the schedules) and mention that it is hard to schedule your time when different types of teapots take significantly different amounts of time to make? They might not be willing to change their system, but they definitely won’t if they don’t know that there is even a problem.

        2. Judy*

          I’d at least start tracking your kinds of teapots and how long it takes. Maybe make a comment column for “had the flu”, etc. Once you have an handle on basics take 3 hrs and winged take 5, you’d at least have more understanding.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Before you beat yourself up too much, please understand that developing a sense of how long things actually take is not in our genes at birth, it’s something we train ourselves to develop.

      You can do this. I have a friend who has ADD and she is working on this herself. She has started with smaller tasks, such as around her house. “Let’s see how long it takes me to clean up the dinner dishes.” She has timed her quickie clean of the bathroom and starting a load of laundry. She’s actually finding the exercise informative and helpful.

      Also know that there are some tasks that do not lend themselves well to timing. One good example would be cleaning out a closet. The reason here is that it is not possible to estimate what unforeseen projects this will entail. You could decide to sort your clothing and do a few simple repairs. Conversely, you could find a whole stack of miscellaneous waaay in the back that you forgot about, boy, this project will take a while.

      Once you raise your awareness of timing it will get easier and easier to be more accurate. And you will also be able to predict when NOT to estimate. “I can’t estimate how long will take me to clean that cupboard because I don’t know how much the mice have damaged in the cupboard.”

      I will say this: Pad your estimates. This is something you can start right now and will give you benefit. My rule of thumb is to add 15 minutes for every hour I estimate. This will vary given what your work is, of course. So roughly speaking if I think I can do something in 45 minutes, I will allot an hour.
      Remember people very seldom get ticked off if you get done EARLY. They usually only get mad if you get done LATE. If you think you can have something done by Thursday afternoon, tell the person it will be done Friday morning. If you get done early you look heroic. If you get done on time you look professional.

      1. katamia*

        I have a pretty short turnaround time (2-3 days) for most of my work, so there’s not always a lot of room for padding, unfortunately. I hate missing deadlines and almost never do, but recently there have been times when bad health days have fallen on days when I’ve gotten particularly time-intensive work, and then I’m so wiped out that it pushes back the more “normal” work I get afterwards.

    3. The OG Anonsie*

      You have to get good at estimating how much time tasks will take, and then budget that time (+ extra in case of unexpected elements) out of the total number of hours you want to work in a week. I’m not really sure how to do this other than observe how you’ve done it in the past very carefully. Get Bullish has a time tracking project you can try, I personally just did it observationally at first and later by making a spreadsheet where I tracked what I was doing in 15 minute increments for a month. Now I can eyeball it without having to write anything down.

      I also have the variable of “unknown degree of health impact” and the time padding helps account for that. Then sometimes I have to miserably push through to a deadline even though it feels like every fiber in my body is fighting it and it’s a terrible time, but I hit the target. When you know the minimum (good health day, very productive) time that it takes to complete some work and the maximum (everything is on fire) time it takes to complete some work, you can also look at how often each of those situations happen and use that to figure out a sort of average time needed. Then pad that out even more, though how much depends on how long a setback might be for you.

  20. BoppingAlong*

    Does anybody also suffer from social anxiety when it comes to work phone calls? I always loathe to use calling, much prefer to receive and send e-mails instead. It gives me and the other person some time to react. But it seems that my current office wants to use the phone more.
    Any tips on how I can conquer my fear?

    1. Dang*

      I hate the phone. I hate it when it rings just as much as I do picking it up to call someone.

      The only thing that works is practice. You get used to it. I find that practicing a little script right beforehand helps me, as lame as that sounds. I always say why I’m calling right after identifying myself. “Hi, this is Dang, how are you doing? I’m calling to clarify xyz, can you help?”

      1. Amadeo*

        Same. I don’t really care who I am calling, I don’t like to use the phone. Texting and emailing were wonderful things for me when they became mainstream. The first time I was told to make a phone call for work I internally freaked out. It’s gotten easier with practice and time, but I still don’t like it, and if I have an email address, I’ll always use that first before anything else.

      2. Parenthetically*

        Total phone anxiety here, and seconding script script script! I used to call prospective students for my university’s admissions office, and we were given a set of scripts that we could customize at will, as long as we hit the high points. It wasn’t long before I didn’t have to use it for most calls and didn’t feel anxious about dialing the number at all.

        I would actually write out, bullet-point style or verbatim, the kinds of things you frequently have to call people about, including potential responses.

        – Hi Dang, it’s Parenthetically over here in Teapot Design.
        – (I’m great, thanks.) I’m calling to check the status on those stress reports from January, can you look those up for me?
        – Yes, I can jot it down right now/Absolutely, email is fine/Sure, I’ll hold/Yep, I’ll be away from my desk from 1-2, but my voicemail will be on.

        Etc., as needed. Good luck!

    2. SophieChotek*

      I agree. I hate work phone calls too. I hate answering the phone and I hate hate hate having do cold-call contacts from lists given to me by other co-workers. Like you I would vastly prefer emails — you can write out the email and it gives the other person time to write a thought-out response.

      I agree the only thing to do is just practice it/do it more and it will become less awkward.
      And know if you get snarkiness/rudeness from others, it’s just that the other person is having a bad day, or maybe always is abrupt, whatever.

    3. Amber Rose*

      I also loathe the phone.

      My trick is to get super busy with something, and then use that momentum to just grab the phone and make the call. When I’m in full-on Work Mode, it overwrites some of the anxiety. Also I spend less time stewing in my own thoughts about how awful the phone is.

    4. Squeeble*

      For me, a big part of why I hate talking on the phone is knowing that my coworkers nearby can hear me. Not that I have anything to hide, I’m just self-conscious about the way I must sound, I guess.

      So if I know I have a call to make, I try to do it first thing in the morning, before most people have arrived. Plus that way it’s out of the way and I don’t have to worry about it the rest of the day. I’ve literally needed to make a call at like 3pm one day and saved it til the following morning.

    5. aebhel*

      Scripts. Scripts are the only thing that work for me. I also keep my employer’s phone number on a post-it note at my desk (even though I’ve worked here nearly 4 years) because sometimes I get so anxious that my brain flubs and forgets it right when I’m trying to leave a message.

      Also, remembering that a LOT of people hate talking on the phone, so there’s a good chance that the person on the other end is just as uncomfortable as I am.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Am chuckling. I was working a couple jobs at one point and I could never get the phone numbers straight. I taped the numbers to the phones. I was really surprised to see other people reading off of my labels. I guess it’s not just me. Currently I have my fax number taped to my phone also, just so I can be sure to get it right.

    6. Mimmy*

      Oh yes!!! Which is interesting given that my past jobs required varying levels of phone work. I’m not sure if I was denying my anxiety or if I was trying to get rid of it! I’m similar to SophieChotek above in disliking answering the phone and making cold contacts because you have zero idea of who’s on the other end and how the conversation will go. I’m a little better if I know something about who I would be speaking with or if I know that there’s an existing, good relationship between the caller and my employer.

    7. SM*

      Oh, I am there with you. Unfortunately, don’t really have a strategy other than take a deep breath and scoop up the phone when it rings (like jumping into cold water). For placing calls, it seems to help a little if I put them on my schedule. Even if I’m not scheduling a specific time with the person on the other end, it helps me gather my courage to do x-scheduled work task. And the telemarketers get their numbers googled then ignored. And mentally reward yourself after a call.

    8. Jill of All Trades*

      I started phone calls with people I knew well and got used to the mechanics of it, so when I ended up going into a situation that made my anxiety go haywire (e.g. angry client call), I could focus on the topic at hand rather than how I was doing on the phone.

      There are some things I just never adjusted to. Don’t ask me to call strangers (*shudder*) especially if I’m being asked to sell something. But talking to my remote coworkers has become fine and normal thanks to the umpteen million times I’ve spoken with them on the phone.

    9. Felicia*

      I don’t mind answering the phone at all, but I’m the same with phone calls. I also make scripts, and give myself limited amounts of time to make the call. Fake deadlines work for me.

    10. Margaret*

      I also hate the phone, and avoid it when at all possible for personal communication.

      I agree that some degree of a script is helpful – depending on the topic/length, I might even write it all out as if I were sending an email, or I might make bullet points. It reassures me that I’ll remember my main points and either communicate everything or ask everything I needed to know.

    11. Birdbrain*

      I hear you! I agree with the others, practice is key. I was TERRIFIED of the phone when I first started my current job (so much that I wondered if I should accept it, given that calling people would be part of the duties). I still use email whenever I can, but practice has made phone calls MUCH easier. Also, with practice you realize that the world doesn’t end if you have an awkward phone call.

      In the meantime, I second (third?) the idea of a script. I sometimes write out what I’m planning to say (an intro sentence or two for when the person picks up, and another option for voicemail). Then I can read it while making the call and I know I’m not going to forget to say my name or why I’m calling. Once the conversation has started, I am usually a bit less nervous. One of my fears is that I’m interrupting them by calling. So my script usually involves something like “Is this a good time?”

      I occasionally send an email with background info that they can read at their leisure and invite them to call me when it’s convenient (giving them a few options so I’m not constantly expecting the phone to ring). Not sure if that would work with your office culture or the type of phone calls you have to make, though.

      Good luck, fellow phone-hater!

    12. Daisy*

      I hate phone calls. Aside from the other suggestions, I pretend I’m acting in a role. I don’t think of myself as Daisy, who happens to be a Teapot Admin, but I think of myself as a Teapot Admin working at MegaCorp, whose name happens to be Daisy. For some reason, distancing myself from what I’m saying helps me stay calm and keeps me from being nervous.

    13. tigerlily*

      Ugh, I also hate the phone. But I’m an Admin Coordinator so I’m on the phone all the time. I hate the “on the spot” feeling that phone calls put you in. You need to have the information now, whereas email or even an in person question can let you have time to find the information needed and present it in an intelligent and thoughtful way. And calling people on the phone for some reason is even worse.

      I don’t have advice for how to make using the phone easier, but maybe I have advice how to gently push back against phone use. My ED is someone who is very tech-unsavy, so that’s why her go-to is always using the phone to call people for information or to schedule appoints or to get help with a computer program. She is literally unable to google information. Whenever she wants me to call someone, I’ll often tell her I’m going to email instead so there’s a record of the conversation or because I’d prefer to have the info I’m getting written down so I can refer back to it later or something like that. Those are real reasons why email can be preferable to a phone call which saves you a little face if you’re embarrassed about your phone anxiety.

    14. BoppingAlong*

      I am so glad to hear that so many of you feel the same! I think I definitely need to try my hand at drafting a script of sorts before starting my calls. Hopefully it will help a lot!

      I always prefer using e-mails in work, but my boss constantly asks why I don’t just call them.

    15. Not So NewReader*

      When I first started working I was not afraid of the phone per se, I was afraid of not knowing how to answer questions.

      As others have said, plan what you will say before dialing. Also build a standard way of answering the phone. “Research Department, this is Bopping.” Some people just answer the ring with their name, “BoppingAlong”. Copy what you see others doing around you.

      I keep scraps of paper by the phone. I write down the name, if they tell me where they are from I write that down. If the question is straightforward then no problem. But if the question has layers, which for me most of the questions do, I start taking notes.

      People give out a lot of useless info because they don’t know what we need to find their answer. If you are not sure of an answer note down whatever they tell you and tell them you will call them back. You can figure out what info is relevant and what is useless after you hang up. Don’t forget to get their number.

      Don’t be embarrassed if you miss their name or other info. Just ask them to repeat it. When you ask them to repeat it, you are acknowledging that you know they already told you, you are paying attention. Annnd, many times asking to repeat info comes across as “I want to help you, so I must make sure I have your info correct.”

      My boss thinks I am great on the phone. I think that is because she thinks she is NOT great on the phone. I don’t like or dislike phones. But I do think phones are more work in some ways.

    16. Hrovitnir*

      Haha yes. Not a lot of advice but commiseration – for a long time having to do it regularly helped, but my anxiety got worse regardless and it was starting to be a real problem at work. I can do it, but it makes me nauseous and hot-cold to call out – it’s incredibly frustrating, because I’m good at it, but my brain disagrees.

      The only advice I have is that the thing that helped me for a long time was the fact it was about work, not me. If you don’t have some sort of loose script in your head that could help. Maybe write out the kinds of things you need to talk about and write a guide for major points, even just openers/fillers/endings you can choose between if you’re feeling stuck.

      Another thing is for me a sense of momentum. Write down the things I need to get done if it’s not an immediate phone call, make a time, then… do it. I’m pretty sure classical conditioning works even when you know you’re doing it to yourself, so if you can figure out a small treat you only get after phone calls (chocolate, a 5 minute walk outside, something like that) you could counter-condition yourself to one degree or another.

      Good luck!

    17. Isben Takes Tea*

      Definitely scripts. Also, weirdly, it depends on the kind of phone I’m using. I get super intimidated talking to strangers on my cell phone–I think because I don’t have the physical power of putting the receiver into the cradle to hang up.

      Suggestions:
      –Could you practice making calls from your work phone to friends or family members and roll-play work conversations?
      –Or calling a toll-free automated number from your work phone and just practice speaking into it? “Hi, this is BoppingAlong from Teapots Inc., and I’m following up on an invoice.”
      –Or you can have friends and family call you so that you can practice answering it in a calm, cool, collected manner? “Thanks for calling Teapots Inc, this is BoppingAlong.”

      1. Isben Takes Tea*

        Hahaha role-play. I’m not sure what roll-play over-the-phone would look like :-)

        1. MoodyMoody*

          I used to play Pathfinder with one player over Google Hangouts, using someone else’s phone. Does that count as “roll-play over-the-phone”?

    18. Gene*

      No advice beyond what’s here.

      But I can tell you that for every one of you who hates the phone, someone else is thinking, “We’ve traded 4 stinking emails/texts on this and it could have been done in a 2 minute phone call and be done with it.” I use email when I need a record of what was said. If I just need a bit of info, your phone is going to ring.

      1. LCL*

        Definitely! I look at this as one of those ‘time and technology marches on’ issues. I am fascinated that there are so many people out there with phone anxiety, I had no idea. I’m glad I learned this today, I’m not judging the phone avoiders, I am a Luddite-by-laziness-not belief who didn’t even learn how to put new apps on my phone until my 3rd smartphone. The company maintained my blackberry, I used my personal phones for phone calls and photos, what else was a phone for?

        1. Lissa*

          It seems to be a really interesting generational switch! When I grew up, the stereotype was “teenage girls are always on the phone.” Now every second person who’s my age or younger has phone anxiety! I am fine with answering the phone, or calling somebody who is expecting my call, but phoning someone who’s not expecting me? I’m always convinced they’re going to yell at me.

      2. Hrovitnir*

        I do hope you appreciate that there’s a difference between preferring one mode of communication and getting anxiety from it.

        I get anxious using the phone. Enough that I have had SSRI withdrawals regularly because having to call the doctor basically required physical symptoms to make me do it. I also prefer the text medium a vast majority of the time – I am very fast with emails, a quick query is likely to be answered just as quickly and with no chance of misunderstanding by email.

        There are definitely certain things that are easier by phone, of course. Things that take 30 seconds to explain but somehow take far too many words to write out, for example.

        Anyway, not saying you don’t understand that, but wanted to put it out there anyway. Irritation at what feels unwieldy to you =/ anxiety. I get frustrated at people who aren’t comfortable with email so I have to go and talk to them but the issue never seems to get communicated as clearly as if they would just read a clearly laid out email. (Which is not to say I don’t think personal interaction is important.)

    19. Emilia Bedelia*

      As mentioned, scripts are great.

      Do make sure to slow down and listen; if I plan out my conversation too much, I get flustered when the other person doesn’t play along. Take a deep breath before you answer the other person; don’t just recite your script.
      Instead of writing out a verbatim script, I like to make a bulleted list of things that I need to remember to ask and then check those off.
      I also make sure to have any documents open that I might need to reference during the call; there is nothing that flusters me more than the awkward “Um, wait a minute, let me find it….. um…………” or trying to carry on a conversation while looking for a file.

      I am also very guilty of ignoring the phone and then emailing the person to say “Sorry I missed your call, I was on another call! What’s up?”. If they’re determined to talk on the phone, you can prepare/schedule it as you like, but most of the time when I try this, they end up emailing me their question anyway. I wouldn’t recommend this EVERY time, but in a pinch….

    20. Graylady*

      Agreed- the phone is the worse. I am the main person responsible for answering the phone at my office and we have a similar name to another organization so I get their phone calls all the time. I try not to be mean to those wanting the other organization but they are a needs based organization so sometimes those people want to tell me their whole life story and I can do exactly zero for them. I think that some things that help with the phone is scripts or even just writing down what you want to say- organize your thoughts. And try to smile or do something that you think will help you not sound nervous. I have a high pitched voice so I sound more like a child than an adult so I always try to speak with confidence when I can. It’s hard but if you practice it enough than it will become second nature to you.

  21. JMegan*

    This week has been really weird at work. I have found myself getting unreasonably annoyed at people for asking me to do really routine things – ie, things that are clearly part of my job, and are easy to do, and I do them all the time. And yet, I’ve been feeling a lot of “I can’t BELIEVE you would ask me to do this!” for some reason.

    But the thing is, I’m not the only one. I was cc’d on a really snarky email exchange between our intranet team and an admin assistant, about putting a department contact list on the intranet. Totally routine and easy for both of them, and still they were griping about it. And in another form of weirdness, I had someone that I know only casually pop by my office to say goodbye, as today is her last day. That in itself was fine, but then she sat down in my chair and listed all the detailed personal reasons why she was leaving – and again, this is someone I barely know, so it felt like bit of an overshare for her. And my colleague who I work the most closely with has just been crabby all week, for reasons unknown.

    I wonder if it’s just winter getting to everybody, or what’s going on. In any case, I’m going to be happy to get away from the office for the weekend!

    1. LQ*

      We’ve been a little like that and it is partly overwhelmed, partly sick, partly snowballing. If you can try to stop it that helps a lot. If you can take a day off. And if your office is as full of sick people as mine is, yeah, try to get people to go home, instead of staying to work.

      Which I should really do myself.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Our office has been kind of weird this week too, though I’m still new so I don’t have a sense of the norms yet. People have been sick, and that’s resulted in others being SUPER busy. Then there’s me, with not much going on and the days have been dragging. I think it’s seasonal transitions. That’s what I’m going with, anyway.

    4. Graylady*

      I think its been one of those weeks. My office was in a sort of pile on mode this week. Today has been quiet somewhat but it seemed one thing after another happened this week.

    5. Trix*

      I’m feeling the same thing in my office today. Everyone (including me) is snarkier than usual, people are willfully misunderstanding questions/issues, our daily leadership huddle devolved into everyone talking over each other. I’m over it.

      I’m going to see if I can get a handle on dynamic drop downs in Excel (which will hopefully be the breakthrough in the new report I’m building), then I’m going home.

  22. Allison*

    Two things:

    1) Is it normal to get really anxious when I hear an older male colleague yelling and swearing on the phone? I couldn’t figure out exactly what was making him so angry, and I know it wouldn’t be fair to assume he has an anger management problem, but his behavior kinda scared me.

    2) Would it be disrespectful to my Catholic colleagues if I ate meat for lunch today?

    1. Dang*

      1) Yes. You’re allowed to listen to your instincts. And they’re probably telling you something.
      2) No. As long as you’re not cutting it up into little pieces and hiding it in their food.

    5. Emi.*

      2) Definitely not! I mean, it would be disrespectful if you waved it in their faces, chanting “Nyah, nyah, I get to eat meat and you don’t!” but just eating it like a normal human is fine.

      3. Allison*

        Wait, are you telling me normal humans don’t eat meat that way? . . . Oops . . .

        (kidding)

    6. Teapot librarian*

      I think for number 2 it depends on 1. if you’re in a Catholic workplace or 2. have primarily Catholic coworkers. If the first, I’d say maybe. If the second, I’d say probably not. If you work in a secular workplace and only a few of your coworkers at Catholic, go ahead. (As a Jew, I don’t care if someone eats a sandwich near me during passover, for example.)

    7. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      1. I’m not sure about normal, but it would make me anxious too.

      2. As someone who grew up protestant in an area that was 90% catholic, I’ve never seen anyone mind.

      1. Allison*

        I grew up in a really Catholic town, and in high school one of my classmates freaked out when she saw me eating meat on a Friday. “Allison, it’s Lent! You can’t have meat on Fridays!”

        1. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

          Well, to be fair, I have gotten a dirty look or two from my mother-in-law. I think she takes it personally when I order chicken instead of fish on Fridays. But I can’t remember anyone else ever saying anything.

          1. Jaydee*

            My husband was raised Catholic and takes great pride in ordering meat if we go out to eat on a Friday. Even with his parents and sister, who are all observant Catholics.

    8. Morning Glory*

      #2 I’m Catholic and I ate meat today. Not everyone is the same level of observant.

      Even if I abstained, I would be horrified to learn anyone was altering their behavior around me due to my religion, or was feeling pressured to adopt tenets of my religion they don’t share.

    10. Lizzle*

      2) My understanding as a life-long protestant is that I get to eat what I want and they get to judge me. I’m fine with that trade…and my Catholic friends have seemed happy with it as well. ;-)

    11. Rat in the Sugar*

      1) That specific situation always reminds me of being yelled at by my stepdad, who is a large guy and was intimidating to me as a kid. I think it’s natural to feel that way, but you shouldn’t let it color your interactions with this coworker unless you have other reasons to believe he’s violent or a jerk.

      2) I’m Catholic and I ate chicken this morning; lots of us don’t follow that rule at all outside of Lent, especially in the states (don’t know where you are). I have health problems that don’t allow me to turn down calories in any season. Are some of your coworkers trying to tell you it would be?? If so, they are incorrect and jerks. If you are abstaining from meat, that’s supposed to be a personal sacrifice and it’s not others people’s job to make it less unpleasant for you, that’s kind of against the whole point.

      1. Allison*

        Like I said, I know I understand it wouldn’t be fair to make assumptions about him based on his behavior this morning. Although I’m starting to wonder if there is a difference between having a concern and making an assumption. I thought you could have a concern without having made an assumption but maybe that’s wrong.

        It’s Lent right now! Ash Wednesday was this week! I’m worried someone will see me heat or eat my lunch and go “oop, is that meat?”

        1. Rat in the Sugar*

          Sorry, I just meant that people who don’t bother to follow it the rest of the time shouldn’t be hard-line during Lent.

          Nobody should give you any trouble, that would be rude of them. I’ll gladly eat meat today right in front of other Catholics and not expect them to say anything to me, it’s supposed to be a really personal thing.

          1. Coalea*

            Not sure what you mean by “don’t bother to follow it the rest of the time.” It’s my understanding (and I’m Catholic) that abstaining from meat on Fridays has been a Lent-only requirement for quite some time. I know it was a year-round obligation when my parents were growing up, but that was in the 1950s and 60s.

            And to the OP, as others have said, enjoy your meat! It’s not disrespectful at all.

            1. Rat in the Sugar*

              I thought it was still common in other countries, and had just fallen out of custom in the United States.

              Also, I think it was still a thing past the 50s and 60s in certain regions. I remember reading a sort of “Jokes for Catholics” book that was written in the 80s and aimed at high school/ college kids and there were a couple of jokes about whether the hot dogs at the Friday game counted as actual “meat” and that sort of thing.

              1. Hibiscus*

                No, it was Vatican II reform.

                But, it’s also A BIG DEAL in certain very Catholic areas to ask for diocese dispensations for St. Patrick’s Day corned beef or opening day hot dogs.

              2. Drago cucina*

                When I lived in Italy I had nuns poke fun at us “strict” Americans for not eating meat on Lenten Fridays. Lenten observances do vary based on the country. Places that do not eat much meat at all may practice other disciplines.

        2. Rat in the Sugar*

          Also, I wasn’t trying to say that I thought you were going to judge your coworker, I just didn’t want to say “Yeah, it’s totally normal to be weirded out!” and just leave it at that.

        3. Observer*

          Why would anyone do that, though? Are you working for a Catholic institution? That would be one thing. But outside of that, I simply don’t see it.

      2. Allison*

        my initial response was in moderation (sorry, AAM!), but I do want to clarify, as I said in my initial post, I know it would be unfair of me to judge his character off his behavior this morning, so I’m trying not to. I don’t work directly with him anyway, I just sit near him.

        1. NACSACJACK*

          People have judged me and are still judging me off my loud and boisterous behavior 10 years ago. It happens and he will have with deal with the fallout of mismanaging his EQ in the workplace. If you’re scared, be scared, own your own feelings and dont be afraid to adjust your behavior yourself. It happens.

        2. PollyQ*

          Eh, you can judge him a little if you want. In most workplaces, yelling and cursing is well outside normal behavior, so at a minimum he’s behaving unprofessionally.

    12. MWKate*

      2 – not at all. Lots of Catholics don’t follow all the rules of Lent, and some have “permission” to eat meat on Fridays for certain kinds of health conditions, etc. My family is Catholic and I cannot imagine anyone caring whether another person is eating meat on Friday.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Same here, growing up–though it was my fault we had fish sticks in the school cafeteria on Fridays. :P Since I bailed on everything, I eat whatever whenever. Today I had bologna twice because I’m sick and I don’t care.

        1. MWKate*

          Same for me, I had a delicious guilt-free burrito. Unless my mom is asking.

          Where I live there are enough Catholics that Fridays are default fish and seafood for every special even outside of Lent.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      Angry voices make most beings anxious. It’s an intuitive reaction. I say “beings” because I had a situation yesterday that really upset my dog. My friend let the dog out, when the dog was ready to come in, a huge wind came up and the door slammed into my friend’s hand. My friend’s hand was covered in blood and he was cussing a blue streak. The dog was still tied to his dog run line and could not get away from my suddenly very angry friend. I thought the two of them were going to get tangled up in each other and have more injuries.

      It’s something so ingrained that even animals know to run from angry voices.

      Friend is fine now, and dog is fine also. We got through it.

    15. Newby*

      I’m catholic and fairly observant. I choose not to eat meat but I am not bothered if others do. Just don’t try to feed them meet and you will be fine.

      2. Birdbrain*

        Now I’m picturing signs saying “Please don’t feed the Catholics!” like at a zoo.

        (I’m Catholic too. I don’t eat meat on Fridays during Lent, but I don’t feel offended or disrespected when other people do.)

    16. Delta Delta*

      1. I think it depends on the situation. I’m a lawyer, and have worked in environments where yelling and swearing on the phone were just all part of a regular day. (I’m not saying I liked it, I’m just saying it happened)

      2. Eat whatever makes you happy! I was raised Catholic and, frankly, I loved Lent because I like fish and it felt like more of a treat than a sacrifice to get to eat fish on Friday. I still observe Lent – mostly for the fish. Wouldn’t matter to me if you ate a cheeseburger, as those are also delicious.

    17. Jadelyn*

      I’ve heard it said that most men don’t realize how scary their raised voices can be to most women, and in my experience that’s absolutely true. I mean, I can know 100% that it’s not something related to me, the person is a friend I trust, and I still tense up and try to make myself invisible if a man in my vicinity is yelling angrily at someone. I don’t think it’s at all strange for you to have been anxious.

    18. LKW*

      2) No more disrespectful than eating a BLT with your Jewish or Muslim colleagues in view. As in not disrespectful at all. Eat the meat.

    19. Lemon Zinger*

      Everyone else gave great advice… no need to avoid meat if you aren’t Catholic! But I’m glad you posted this– I was planning on having leftover chicken for lunch! (I’m Catholic and totally forgot today is the first Friday of Lent!)

    20. Nervous Accountant*

      2) NO and I would be really weirded out by a coworker who was offended at that. My coworkers eat pork (I’m Muslim) and I can’t imagine ever telling them not to. Or telling someone to not eat near me when I’m fasting (not that I do but I did at one point). I dont’ force my dietary choices on anyone and I hate those that do. I know it’s a your office may vary type thing but I can’t imagine any office with sane, rational adults functioning like this but..*shrugs*

    21. Theletter*

      1) This guy sounds terrible and you should report him for creating a hostile work environment.
      2) Lent for me means fish taco Fridays! Yum Yum Yum Yum.

  23. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

    I’m not sure if this really counts as a work issue, but it does affect potential future employment. I’m in my late 30s, and attending school full-time to get my first BS degree while working full-time. I have been majoring in accounting and I’m currently employed as an accounting clerk, but need a degree to move up. However, I do not like my major specific classes. I just don’t. I enjoy the work I do quite a bit but it really bothers me that I don’t like the classes about accounting. I’ve mentioned it to my school adviser and they have mentioned I might be happier with a business management degree instead. My goal has been to be able to move into a staff or cost accountant role (no intention of getting my CPA) or possibly a financial analyst. I can complete the BS in Accounting in two semesters, the BS in Business Management would only need 1 more semester.

    My question is: is a degree a degree in this case? I’m not really sure what a career path for someone with a business management degree is, but being done after one more semester instead of two more is really appealing. Or if I could still move into a accountant role if even I went with the business management degree combined with the work experience I do have?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I’m not in the accounting field (although my mother is, and has been for 30 yrs), but I would suck it up and get the accounting degree. It’s quicker to finish, and it’s more applicable to your career path. If something happens and you change your mind about being a CPA, you are closer than if you get the business management degree. I think it’s a lot easier to do generic business work with a specific accounting degree than the other way around.

    2. Temperance*

      I would probably finish the Accounting degree rather than incur more student debt. My advice hinges on whether you’re at a nonprofit or a for-profit school.

    3. Tmarie*

      I’ve worked in accounting for over 30 years. I finally took the “core” 300/400 level accounting courses in 2006. I hated them. In industry accounting, versus how I assume public accounting to be, very little of the coursework seemed applicable.

      However, if you want an accounting job that pays a living wage, you actually need the accounting degree. Stick it out, it will be worth it.

      1. Tmarie*

        Oh, and I should have included that after finishing those boring 300/400 level accounting courses, my pay, over the past 10 years has increased by 45% from where I was with “just” a Business Management degree.

      2. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        This is especially good to hear. I was really stressing that I had chosen the wrong thing when I didn’t like my core classes!

        1. Jadelyn*

          In my experience, classes in a career-field-specific degree (versus a degree in like…literature or something) tend to be far less relevant than you’d expect. I’m 2 classes away from my degree in HR Management – like you, I’m doing it because it’s necessary in order for me to move up – and I have learned about a thousand times more in 3 years on the job than I have in two years of full-time classes that are supposedly related to my field. As long as you like the work you’re actually doing, just consider the classes to be boxes on a check-off list, do them and get them done with and keep doing the actual work you’re enjoying.

          I think if you want to stay in accounting as a field, you’ll want the accounting degree. You probably *could* move up okay with the addition of actual accounting experience alongside a general business degree, but it would be simpler with the accounting degree. My mother has done accounting since before I was born and she ended up having to go into a different field when her company closed, since she did accounting in the days before accounting degrees were common and doesn’t have one. Her education was in business and then later, early childhood education (she did a stint as a teacher for awhile). A lot of places would rather hire someone with an accounting degree and a couple years experience, than someone with a non-accounting education and 20+ years of experience.

    4. Rat in the Sugar*

      I just moved from Accounts Payable into an Accountant 1 position a few months ago, and my boss explicitly congratulated me because this position requires my bachelor’s, while Accounts Payable can be performed by anyone with experience. (Sort of a “Congrats, the schooling is paying off now!”, if that sounds weird).

      It might vary at other companies, but I would say if you want to be a staff accountant at a decent level you need the degree.

    5. Accountant*

      I know it’s neither of the two options you listed, but is it possible for you to fill up some courses with financial management instead of public accounting courses (generally the last few semesters of accounting are advanced accounting, audit and tax…two of which are irrelevant to cost/staff accountants). Financial management/managerial accounting are generally much more relevant to non-CPAs.
      In terms of the value of the degree – most accounting jobs I know specifically look for an accounting degree (or a specialization in accounting if that’s an option?) just for surety that you have the background knowledge for some of the more complicated stuff.

    6. Margaret*

      Do you know what part of the accounting classes it is that you don’t like?

      I work in the tax dept of a CPA firm. And I know it will vary some by school curriculum (e.g., I only had one tax class in undergrad whereas it sounds like people at other colleges had more), but I use very little of the specific content from my degree classes, beyond having a strong base of debits and credits. It seems like the bulk of intermediate and advanced accounting classes were stuff only relevant to public companies/SEC requirements, and not only do I not do that, my firm doesn’t really audit public companies either, so I’m not even seeing it on their work if we do both financials and tax work for a company. I have to understand enough of GAAP to know when it differs from tax, but that’s it.

      1. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        Right now I’m working on a corporate tax class and so much of it seems to be memorizing form names, the differences between LLC/C Corp/S Corp/etc, and tax guidelines. I can do all the calculations and actually enjoy working with the numbers but all the memorizing things that may or may not change (such as how much charitable contribution deduction is allowed) just seems pointless. I remember having much the same feeling with aspects of intermediate accounting. But, yes, so much seems geared towards public companies.

        1. Margaret*

          In “real life” on the job, that stuff really doesn’t matter much. You either absorb it over time or you have resources to look it up. The types of things you listed there I know off the top of my head now, not really from memorizing just working them day in and day out. You’re not expecting to have every dollar limitation or percentage memorized (I think even the CPA exam section that include tax lets you access some IRS pubs and forms during it), you have to know the concepts (e.g., that there are limitations of charitable contributions), and maybe a rough idea of the numbers, but that’s it. Even talking to clients – if discussing generally, I can say “the estate tax exemption is adjusted for inflation and currently a bit over $5 million”, and just look it up if I’m actually doing a specific calculation.

        2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Oh mannnn, I just finished doing those for my investment licensing exams. I’d swear that I had little S Corps and C Corps dancing around my head at night. My sympathies!

    7. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      Thanks, everyone. I think I just needed someone to agree that sticking with accounting was the way to go. I was leaning in that direction, and it’s good to see that’s the consensus.

    8. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      My husband has a degree in Finance. He only took 6 units of Accounting classes and HATED them. He’d need 20 total to qualify for CPA but he has no interest in doing so. That being said, he worked for a CPA firm for 8 years and is now managing the accounting department for a government agency. He really doesn’t need those extra units. His Finance degree works just fine.

    9. Hrovitnir*

      I should read the other replies but I’m feeling too lazy so hopefully it’s not a complete replicate. I am not in accounting but I really, really feel like there will be classes you don’t enjoy in any degree. I have at least some interest in most subjects, and I really think it’s being so interested that I am willing to slog through the stuff that doesn’t do it for me kind of defines whether it’s something you want to do. In the case of something like accounting I think that can go double, because enjoying mechanistic workflows doesn’t mean you enjoy learning the background knowledge (some people do – I don’t think you have to to enjoy the job).

      Like I hated undergraduate labs with the fire of a thousand suns, and I hate people who say that means you won’t like working in a lab. Umm, in a lab I won’t be doing an exercise once and never again, feeling like I have no idea what I’m doing, sharing equipment with 60 people, and working in a group in a work situation is a million miles from doing so in school. Guess what? Post-grad lab work is great. Hurrumph.

      Also, I bet your age has something to do with it. By and large I really enjoyed undergrad, but I was in my late 20s and had a career before I went back and it definitely can make you impatient with some of the stuff aimed at growing people just out of high school.

    10. Graylady*

      I work in government and in order to actually be a staff accountant you have to have an accounting degree. But something such as business admin with focus in accounting works. I actually have a Masters degree in accounting so I don’t have to worry about it but right now our accounting department wants to add another accountant but doesn’t have anyone qualified for the position because no one has an accounting degree. I think it depends on the industry what they want in regards to degree but it seems that the path you have chosen might require one. Also don’t worry about how much you hate the classes just try to get through them. I work with someone who had to take a business accouting class four (4!) times because its so different from government accounting. She finally passed but she probably tried every trick she could to get through it.

  24. NCIS Crazy Town*

    Should phone interviews get the same follow up ‘thank you’ email that in-person interviews get?

    2. Jadelyn*

      Yes and no – I’d be more casual about it than I would be for a full interview, just a quick email note saying “It was great talking with you today, I’m really excited about this role, hope to discuss next steps with you soon” or something like that, but I would definitely follow up.

    3. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I’d say yes if nothing additional is scheduled during the call. Most of the phone interviews I’ve had were more like a screening call that ended with scheduling me to come in for an in-person interview. I’ve never sent a thank you in that instance since I was definitely having another interview to follow up on items discussed.

  25. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I start something about 10-15% better paying and with casual dress and more flexible hours on Monday! I’m so pleased.

    OTOH, my wife and I are trying to eat more healthy and fresh food, but my God, I am so tired of salads, no matter what is on them. I am having massive salt cravings since unprocessed food has approximately none, and just want a salty, cheesy taco or pizza!

    1. Dang*

      I also burn out on salads very quickly. I just got an instant pot and the thing is amazing. It makes everything and is so low maintenance, just the way I like it. There are some great recipes on pinterest. So worth the hype.

      Cravings are the worst. But stick with it, in a few weeks this will feel normal.

      Good luck at the new job!

          1. Dang*

            Ya know, I didn’t believe it.

            And then I bought it. And I LOVE it. To be fair it does take a bit to familiarize yourself, and some things really don’t lend themselves to cooking in it (despite what the internet tells you), but it’s been 100% worth it in my opinion. The first thing I made was lentil soup and it was done in 25 minutes or so and tasted like it had been simmering all day!

            1. Jadelyn*

              Wow…okay, I’ll probably pick one up next payday. I live with my mom and we both have chronic pain issues, plus I have depression, so a lot of the time we end up just eating mac and cheese or ordering something for delivery bc neither of us has the energy to cook real food. We’ve got a crock pot but our apartment is old and neither of us trusts the wiring enough to leave it plugged in and heating all day unless one of us is working from home, so something that could do a similar job but in the time-frame of between getting home from work and dinnertime…that would be amazing! Thanks for the rec. :)

              1. MoodyMoody*

                The Instant Pot also has a slow-cooker function, for those that have old slow cookers. Unfortunately, one of the things it can’t do is rewire your apartment.

              2. Tedious Cat*

                I really think you’re going to love the Instant Pot. I like the idea of cooking but am really lazy, but the fact that I can to a large extent throw the ingredients in and come back in an hour for a finished meal keeps me cooking when before I would have given up and gone with something processed. You can also sear right in the pot so you don’t have to dirty another pan.

      3. Paquita*

        There is an Instant Pot facebook group. I don’t (yet) have one but the fb group is very active and helpful.

    2. Amber Rose*

      You can make your own pizza. It’s healthier than ordering pizza, you can throw fresh veggies on it, and if you use a little bit of salty meats or cheese, that should help the cravings. Also: pickles.

      The least sustainable diet is the one where you deprive yourself of things you desperately want.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        This. I give myself a “rest day” every weekend where I don’t track and treat myself to some pizza or a burger or whatever. The tradeoff is that I have to take a pretty strenuous 4-5 mile hike in the mountains, but even that doesn’t require a lot of arm-twisting for me.

    3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      One does not eat healthy on salads alone. What kind of stuff do you like to eat? I’d be happy to help with ideas, because I’ve been on the project of dumping that stray 15 pounds since January, and I’ve had to get creative. Helps that I spent a foolish amount of money on a dreamy new grill, so I’ve been grilling most nights.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        One of my go-tos is tacos. A soft corn tortilla is hardly problematic diet-wise, and tacos are the perfect food. Last night I made smoked chicken tacos with some (mmmm salty) cotija cheese and pumpkin seeds, but I have about 15 types I make often. Fish tacos are particularly good for keeping the calories down.

        Tostadas are awesome too. Brush the soft corn tortillas with some oil, bake ’em till crisp, top ’em with stuff. My personal favorite is fish (or octopus) with guacamole and slaw, but you can also do a saucy shredded chicken, or a smear of mashed black beans with wilted greens and squash or mushrooms….

        2. Elizabeth West*

          FISH TACOS
          I make them all the time. I get mad that I can’t buy cabbage slaw to put on them in small quantities, so instead I use Taco Bell chipotle sauce (the stuff they put on the quesadillas; you can get it at Walmart), spinach, those Rotel tomatoes, and sometimes avocado. I spread the sauce on a big old burrito wrap (or two smaller taco-size tortillas) and stick spinach leaves all over. Then I saute tilapia seasoned with taco seasoning, plunk the fish and the other ingredients on top, and nom.

          You can eat leftovers the next day, IF you are brave about microwaving fish at work. Tilapia isn’t as smelly as salmon and this just smells like taco spice. Sometimes I use the little battered fish fillets if I can’t afford tilapia fillets.

      2. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Well, I have a massive sweet tooth, usually. But I also like tacos, wraps, potatoes, and yogurt as well as the stereotypical lunch sandwich. Soups are awesome too. But, I already had that last night, and so I didn’t take some today.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Oooh, avoid the stereotypical lunch sandwich. Sandwich bread is so unbelievably loaded with bad carbs and sodium.

          Do you like sweet potatoes? That’s one of my go-tos, either orange or white. Much better glycemic index than a standard potato.

          1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

            Yes, definitely, but I already eat them for breakfast. Food boredom is a big problem for me.

            1. Pebbles*

              How about Asian foods? There are so many fresh, healthy recipes you can make that will have a different flavor than the usual soups and salads. Just moderate the fish sauce and soy sauce (I use low-sodium) and you’ll be fine!

            2. Delta Delta*

              Re: food boredom – Have you tried any recipes by Ottolenghi? The cookbooks are drop-dead gorgeous (and expensive, I’d check one out of the library and see if you like it before you buy one) and have really creative, really fresh stuff. They have a lot of ingredients but aren’t very complicated. Highly recommend to combat food boredom!

              And YAY! for your new job!

              1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

                If anybody wants a copy of Ottolenghi (the first cookbook) let me know. I’d be happy to let my duplicate go for a fair price.

          2. Rainy, PI*

            I make all the bread we eat, and I have always found homemade bread to be considerably more satiating than the storebought stuff. Not to mention that making your leftovers sandwich on homemade ciabatta turns desk lunch into an enjoyable experience.

            But if you’re anti-bread, it’s still bread. :)

        2. K.*

          You need more variety in your diet! Don’t deprive yourself! A lot of people think eating healthy means you only eat salads, but that’s not true. Part of eating well is eating a balanced diet, and no one is going to stick to any kind of eating plan in which you deprive yourself of everything you love.

          You like tacos – you can use chicken, or lean ground beef or turkey, which is naturally lean. If you like wraps, there are a frillion ways to get veggies in wraps. Greek yogurt with berries (I buy the the frozen unsweetened kind at this time of year) and a little agave or honey is good for killing sweet tooth cravings. You can stack sandwiches with veggies too – just use whole-grain bread.

        3. EP*

          One of my favorite soups is a roasted butternut squash soup with some fresh ricotta or goat cheese on top… yummmm

        4. Not So NewReader*

          The two go hand-in-hand, if you enjoy sweets then probably you will have salt cravings. Stay the course, the cravings will cut back. I used watermelon as my go to when the sweet cravings got tough.

          I switched to sea salt and I use it on a few things. I like salt on my eggs. Sometimes with certain cuts of beef I will use salt. We do need to take in some salt, we can’t totally go without. A friend had a moose steak. Yeah, I threw a little salt on that.

        5. Girasol*

          Homemade soups so thick they’re more like stews. That’s my favorite. Thick bean or pea soups. Cream of turkey with sherry. Chicken or beef with a ton of veggies. Scotch broth of lamb and barley. I make huge kettles full, three at a time once a month or so on a rainy weekend. Then I freeze it in two serving containers so that a little work goes a long way and there’s a variety on hand. While there’s health value in a raw salad, it just doesn’t seem like a meal to me as much as does a thick hot soup made out of the same veggies, especially in winter. Pack it in a microwave container or a hot food thermos (or two, for both of us) with cheese and a bit of fruit and maybe some good bread and it doesn’t take much effort on a sleepy morning.

    4. Purest Green*

      Congrats on your first sentence!

      And for your other hand, soups have been my friend recently. I can throw in all kinds of veggies and seasonings and it’s still healthy, yet I feel like I actually ate something.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I’ve worked with co-workers who make beautiful Thai soups at work. Rice noodles, sprouts, carrots, egg, and pre-flavored broth. They warm up the broth, then add the cold ingredients. It’s so simple to do in the breakroom and the end product looks like it came right from the restaurant!

    5. Manders*

      Woohoo! Congratulations!

      I’m having the same problem with healthy foods. I’m a 5’0″ woman, my husband is 6’3″ and lifts weights regularly. Our nutrition needs are very different.

      I really love the recipes on Budget Bytes–they’re cheap and healthy, and usually not too time consuming to make. The mole enchilada recipe might satisfy your taco cravings. Plus, they have a great section for beginner cooks about how to stock a pantry with staples and spices.

    6. Morning Glory*

      Congratulations! That is awesome :)

      Can you make your own tacos with fresh ingredients?

    7. namelesscommentater*

      Congrats on the new job!

      I go to roasted veggies when I burn out on salads. Onions, carrots, potatoes and beets make a great meal with some salt and paper. I make them in a romertopf and it’s super easy. Add some rice to make a meal (or chicken if you eat it). Other staples for me include: dals/soups, smoothies, and pizza on flatbread w/ veggies.

    8. ExceptionToTheRule*

      Oh I hear you on the second part. I’ve started using a healthy meal service for my lunches & some dinners just to avoid the salad burn-out. The company I use is local to me (not a chain like blue apron) and everything is fresh & under 600 calories.

      I use protein bars for snacks too – helps get the chocolate fix & additional protein.

    9. Lady Julian*

      Oh, I love salads! The key with salads is that they are *not* just lettuce, tomatoes, carrots. Try some grain salads (I like barley and farro), for instance. Put stuff in the salads that you wouldn’t expect to be in salad, like pear with blue cheese and barley and a little green/red onion. Top with walnuts. :)

      That said, there are other options. Lentils are cheap and satisfying and healthy. They’re also really easy. Stir fries, then fried rice with the leftovers, are also good; and Asian plays well with salty stuff. Veggie soups/stews are good (there’s a sausage-and-chickpea soup recipe at Bon Appetit that’s been yummy!) What about carrot sticks/chips with hummus? The chips will give you something salty while still being healthy? You can have an egg or a little Greek yogurt for protein.

      1. WellRed*

        So funny this thread us today. We all ate lunch in conference room and several people called salads boring. I said they arent boring if you make them well.

    10. E*

      Congrats on the new job with awesome perks!
      You might try making taco salad instead. I put my cooked taco meat (or you could use chicken or shrimp) on top of lettuce and tomatoes, and add a little sour cream and shredded cheese on top. Close enough tastes to fill that taco craving, and the sodium is easily controlled by how much toppings you add.

    11. Namast'ay In Bed*

      Check out skinnytaste(dot)com! It’s full of delicious healthy recipes. You can eat healthy and fresh without resorting to salads!

    12. Parenthetically*

      Uuuuugh salad. I STRONGLY prefer non-lettuce-based salads like salmon or tuna nicoise. Lettuce, ugh. If it has to be greens-based, I make a mean taco salad, and an awesome warm roasted butternut squash/french lentil/bacon-onion dressing/goat cheese/toasted pecan salad that goes on top of arugula. My husband loves Greek salad but I’m even getting burned out on that.

      Just give me a bowl of roasted vegetables and keep all the boring-ass lettuce and cucumber situations away from me.

    13. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Congrats on your new job! As for the food, I actually love to throw some boneless skinless chicken breasts in the crock pot with salsa, cumin, and throw a handful of frozen corn in as well, and forget about it until it’s done and shreds apart. Then I either put that on top of brown rice or I make a soft taco with whole wheat tortilla and a sprinkle of cheese and black beans and a slice or two of avocado. It’s healthy, won’t break the diet, and satisfies the taco craving!

    14. Beancounter Eric*

      I am not a doctor, nor a nutritionist, but…..have a salty taco or a pizza. Then get back on the healthier diet.

      Part of post-heart attack cardiac rehab involves meeting with a nutritionist – one of the things they said is don’t get too upset if you slide off healthy and have a hamburger…just don’t do it every day…or week.

      And congratulations on the new job!!

    15. Blue_eyes*

      Can you try salting your homemade foods a bit more? Salt is a necessary nutrient and while it’s easy to have way too much when you’re eating processed foods, it’s usually not a problem in home-cooked food. The amount of salt you would add during cooking or at the table is way, way less than what would come in a processed or restaurant meal. A little finishing salt on some of your foods might help you kick the salt craving without going all out on foods you’re trying to avoid. But also, often the best way to end a craving is just to eat a little bit of the food in question so you can stop thinking about it.

      Congrats on the new position!

    16. SeekingBetter*

      Glad to hear about your new job!

      Speaking of food, I’m having a mad craving for mac-and-cheese. It’s about 8am in the morning :)

  26. Soy una pizza*

    Does anyone have suggestions on how to manage interruptions when those interruptions are part of your job? I work for a small company where everyone wears 1,000 hats. Part of my job is dealing with constant things that pop up that I can’t predict; telephone calls (of which we get dozens daily), visitors to the office (we get ~75 each day), mail delivery, issues with the copy machine, etc. However, I am also responsible for items that require dedicated time and focus such as inputting billing/payment information for all clients (which I cannot make ANY mistakes on or it screws up the entire process and I have to start over) and the analysis, planning, and management of one of our most popular programs. With the way my job (and the office itself) is structured, there’s no way for me to step away from the distractions, which has dragged down my level of work on the focus-specific tasks. I try to plan my day so I do the focused tasks at less busy times, but even then it’s difficult to predict if and when a client or something in the office will need my immediate attention. It also means that I’m not on my customer service A-game when clients appear because my brain is still trying to disentangle itself from the work I was doing. Any tips on how to mitigate the effect of the interruptions on my other work? I can’t minimize them, unfortunately, as my boss has made it clear that my job tasks are mine alone and other coworkers can’t step in.

    1. calonkat*

      The only thing I’ve ever come up with is to design your work process on the focus task in steps and note when you get interrupted. Such as: Pull invoice>double check address>double check dates>double check products/services>enter/approve. Then mark each off in some when when you do it, so if you get interrupted it is easier to find where you were. And always follow the process in the same order! it works out poorly to change it up for variety, then get sidetracked into something time consuming, and end up NOT getting everything correct…

    2. Spice for this*

      I have experience doing this type of job (answer phones, greet and direct visitors, enter data into a spreadsheet will trying to avoid any mistakes, etc.) in the past and it is challenging.
      Some mornings between 8-10 am and Fridays were quieter in the office, so I worked on the spreadsheets or tasks that required my complete attention. Being very organized and having a daily to do list helped me complete most of my tasks by the given deadline.
      Sometimes I asked my boss for some additional time to complete a task (spreadsheets and such) if I had a very busy week with phone calls , visitors, etc.
      I understand and I was not able to find the perfect balance since I had interruptions all day long. :(

      1. joeiron*

        When I worked a job like this I made checklists with each step for recurring/non-interruption tasks so I could quickly mark what step I was at when an interruption came in so I could get back to it.

        That and thorough daily to do lists

    3. Elizabeth H.*

      My job is exactly like this too. EXACTLY. I feel like my brain functions worse each day than the day before. I’m the person in charge of fixing the printer-copier, too.

    4. Chaordic One*

      My predecessor at my last job managed by having her work hours adjusted with the approval of our boss. She would come in at 6:00 am and leave at 3:00 pm. During the first two hours before the office was officially open she’d be able to get a lot done without interruptions.

      Of course, she wasn’t there for problems that came up after 3:00 pm, but tough.

  27. Sabine the Very Mean*

    Hoping for advice…

    First day at new job in new city–public transit industry = mostly men. Boss gives me tour of facility and shows me the two bathrooms. They are single room toilets with no stalls. Just one for men and one for women. He tells me since it’s mostly men, they just use whatever room is available. Immediate bells go off in my head. I’m a freak about the toilets at home. My poor male partner is often subjected to my calling him in to clean up the rim, seat, or front of the bowl (he’s getting better and I do understand basic pee physics).

    My first trip to the women’s bathroom was met by, wouldn’t you know it, pee on the rim (seat up), trailing down the front of the bowl, and a PUDDLE of pee on the floor below. My choice is to clean it up myself before sitting down or straddling my legs and watching to ensure a trail of pee doesn’t touch the inside of the back of my pants or underwear. Anytime, in my personal life, I have asked men to please clean up their pee, they totally lose it. Like they don’t understand why I don’t want my bare skin touching their urine!?

    What would you all do knowing I’m days in to the new position?

    My first trip to the women’s bathroom

    2. Emi.*

      Oh my word, that’s so terrible. Do you have maintenance staff you can talk to? Obviously it’s gross for them as well, but they might know who’s best to complain to.

    3. Fiona the Lurker*

      I absolutely *hate* this. I sometimes stay at campsites where contractors are also staying, and they’re not used to having women onsite and just use the women’s facilities whenever they want to. I’ve walked in on a man sitting on the toilet with the door open on one occasion, and the condition they leave the showers in is indescribable, but then I’m usually only there for a night or two before moving on and a complaint to the management does the trick.

      Any chance you could just put up a notice in the women’s bathroom reminding your male colleagues to be more considerate? I’m not generally a fan of those ‘If you sprinkle when you tinkle, please be neat and lift the seat’ type of signs, but it might serve to get the point across with a trace of humour.

    4. Angelinha*

      oh yuck! Can you discreetly ask someone else what the deal is with the gross bathrooms and whether anyone’s ever said anything? That could give you a sense of whether other people are bothered by it and then maybe together you could take action.

    5. Murphy*

      I would definitely speak to them about the condition of the bathroom. A little messy is one thing. Pee everywhere is unacceptable, and would be unacceptable to many men as well.

    6. irritable vowel*

      It sounds like what’s needed is not an enforced gendering of bathrooms that have been getting used in a de facto gender-neutral way, but some instruction from management about bathroom etiquette, and maybe an increased janitorial schedule if possible, for everyone’s benefit. Lots of women are honestly just as bad as men in making messes in public bathrooms, whether it’s peeing all over the seat, leaving used sanitary products in plain view or clogging the toilet with them, leaving messes at the sink area, etc. Management needs to “remind” all staff to remember that they are sharing these bathrooms with x number of other people and to maybe imagine that their mother is going to use the bathroom after them. (And this should come from management, not from you – don’t become the bathroom nagger, especially so soon after starting!)

      1. Miss Ann Thrope*

        +1 Women are not inherently less messy. I often walk into the women’s bathroom and see similar things! It’s about, as you put it, bathroom etiquette

      2. Elizabeth West*

        YES.
        It’s definitely not a gender thing. I always had to clean up the sink area at Exjob–someone on my floor must have taken a bath every time they washed up. Water just everywhere. And seats had hoverpee on them too.

    7. MWKate*

      How is losing it ever an appropriate reaction to asking someone to clean their pee off the floor?!

      As for work – I would just say you’ve noticed some sanitary issues with the bathroom, specifically around the toilet and are wondering how it should be addressed. A rational person will understand why someone does not want to stand (or sit!) in urine.

      1. AJ*

        I agree, but I think the OP needs to be more direct when she speaks about it. Since she is working with mostly men and she just started she doesn’t want to put herself in the “delicate little lady category” – because being “pissed” (sorry, couldn’t resist) that there is a puddle on the floor is NOT a ridiculous request. I say be respectful, but firm and use soften any language. Don’t say sanitary issues say “puddle on the floor” and don’t out yourself as being a clean freak at home.

    8. Badmin*

      Is there an admin you can talk to who can then request a cleaning? Even though it seems part of a larger problem. I work at a Large University and the female bathrooms (which men don’t go in) are often disgusting from students using them. This includes: pee on the floor, sprayed all over the seats (certain students squat or even stand on the seats), blood on the seats, etc. I just do a facilities request for cleaning, but understand the difference in environments here. Also since the traffic is so heavy with so many students I can’t really address it with someone in particular. I usually do one of thse out of the ordinary requests aside from regular cleaning 1-2x a month.

      However, since you know the group using the bathroom, it may be worth it to speak up as a larger issue.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        When I worked in a large university library, this happened all the time. Luckily I worked on a staff only floor, but apparently in the past students would still come up there to wreck the bathroom so bad, that they added key access only. Few times a week I would still catch students coming up the stairs (right next to the bathrooms), and trying the handles to get in.

        1. Badmin*

          lol I work in the library, I wish there were key access! I don’t understand how they can just leave their mess/make it in the first place!

    9. The OG Anonsie*

      When I started reading this I was gonna say you don’t have any reason to believe men are going to just pee all over everything just because, but, well. Well.

      I have never lived with a guy who left this kind of mess in a bathroom, the only time I’ve seen it was in this one bathroom at this one job I used to have where there was someone who used to piss absolutely all over this one specific bathroom on our floor. No matter how much it got cleaned it just reeked of old urine because of how often the floor got doused. There was a collective effort by all the sane people in the area to say hey, whoever is doing this, are you freaking insane? Why? But it never stopped.

      Like, regular dudes don’t just haul off and wizz all over the bathroom in the first place, but if there is a mishap they also won’t just leave it behind like whatevs. That is Not Normal behavior, so I always sort of assume that saying something is unlikely to shame the guilty party into not doing it anymore because clearly their concept of shame is a little off. So definitely try talking to whoever you think might be in charge of stuff like cleaning or maintenance requests (is there an admin? someone who takes on office-management type responsibilities?) and bring it up when you see it next time like “oh my gosh there is a real mess in the bathroom” as if you assume this is a one-time anomaly, then see if they tell you they have a serial floor pisser I guess.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        On a slightly unrelated, but when I saw “never lived with a guy”, it made me think of this and just wanted to share. So I currently do not live with a guy, and my apartment complex was having electrical work done in every unit. When I got home from work, the toilet seat was totally up in my bathroom (now if I was in a house or was the person who initiated workmen being my home, I’d have no problem with them using my bathroom. But this just seems different, because they could have used the one in the apartment office, not far). Well I reported that to the apartment manager, along with a question I had, this required her calling the electrical project manager. At the end of the call she also added one of the workmen had used my bathroom, and based on her end of the conversation, I believe, he was saying things along the lines of “the workmen are not allowed to do that and they know better” with a kind of condescending attitude. Apt mgr, was like “A man does not live there and the toilet seat was up”, total dead silence on the phone then a much softer tone from the project manager.
        I mean, common sense here, if you use a bathroom you’re not supposed to, leave it the way you found it, not with the toilet seat up.

    10. Hrovitnir*

      *sigh* I’m sorry. I can’t imagine a solution honestly, but I want to throw out there that this isn’t inevitable. Both my university at home and my university overseas have single stall unisex bathrooms and beyond the fact that men’s pee can smell stronger it’s actually never been very gross.

      My home university does have some gendered toilets though, and my male friends say some of them are incredibly gross, so who knows what that’s about.

    11. GigglyPuff*

      Gross.
      I would probably go the route of asking the boss how to ask for janitorial assistance.

    12. Sparkly Librarian*

      No advice, I’m afraid, but I am sympathetic. At my work we share a unisex bathroom among maybe 10 staff (not all are full-time, so it meets capacity). And now that we’ve started having more male staff assigned on a temporary basis, I do occasionally come in to find the seat up. That doesn’t bother me too much, although I grew up in a house where my dad left the seat down and when I lived with a boyfriend and/or male roommates, they always left the seat down.

      But one of the men dribbles. Like every time. And because of the limited staff, I know who it is. It’s very awkward to know that, and it would be more awkward for me to confront him with any version of my mental scream, “WHY IS THIS ACCEPTABLE TO YOU? What on earth do you do at home, and why does your perfectly nice wife let you get away with it??”

    14. Kyoki*

      I feel your pain! I used to work as an office manager at a distribution center at 21 – it was my first job out of college so I didn’t really know office norms. I was the only woman in the entire company (comprised of about 20 people total) and going to the bathroom was just a nightmare. Usually I don’t really voice my opinions but this was something I could not stay quiet about. I told them straight up to please use the men’s bathroom only because I felt uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with male coworkers. I knew if I said it was a pee/sanitary issue, I wouldn’t be taken seriously. Worked like a charm and they stayed out of the women’s bathroom. Good luck!

    15. Chaordic One*

      I don’t think that the people sharing differently gendered restrooms is a big deal. Sometimes it really is a matter of convenience. A little consideration and courtesy. (Yoo-hoo! Anybody in here? Sorry, I’ll go to the other one.)

      OTOH, the messiness is NOT ACCEPTABLE and needs to be addressed by your supervisor.

    16. Observer*

      Bring it up – but not as a gender issue. Because it really isn’t. I have lived all my life with males (father, brother, husband and sons) and used the same bathroom facilities as many other males (a variety of relatives and a few workplace situations with single room toilets.) I’ve NEVER encountered this kind of thing in anyone over 7 years old or so. Really. Which is to say that there is no reason why men can’t leave the toilet reasonably clean.

      So, what you say is “Leaving urine all over the place is not sanitary. How do we get that taken care of?”

  28. VermiciousKnit*

    How do you guys deal with a passive-aggressive superior coworker? This person is in a parallel position to mine but in a superior division of our agency, and also considered the “head” teapot exec assistant.

    Whenever she has a question or concern about something related to an item in my division, for the most part, she calls my boss first instead of me, even if it’s a question I could readily answer, even if it’s well known it’s something I would handle. My boss is the type that sees me “succeeding” when she doesn’t have to intervene in my tasks at all, and so any person calling her or copying her on an email regarding one of my tasks, even if there’s just a question and not an issue, is seen by my boss as indication of a problem.

    This particular co-worker also generally does not like me, just as a personality thing. I’m very much a questioner, do-by-good-reason-and-efficiency person, and she’s an authoritarian, do-by-tradition person and my shake-ups and unusualness bother her a lot. Even though I’m not much younger than her, I have a very youthful face and tend toward millienial-style habits even though I’m not one (I hate phones, so much. She refuses to email me questions, ever, even during the week when I had laryngitis).

    TL:DR her habit of calling my boss first is causing me problems. How do I a) try to get her to direct questions to me, first and b) communicate to my boss that there’s not a problem with the tasks at hand?

    1. VermiciousKnit*

      (Examples from five minutes ago: She called my boss for “questions” about a form I had submitted for her boss’ approval, which implies that I had not proofread or submitted the form correctly. The actual question was that one form had a line with an acronym she didn’t understand, but if she had read two lines lower, the acronym was spelled out and indicated. The fix was me taking a pen and writing out the acronym on every line where it appears, something she could have done herself much faster than calling my boss, having my boss ask me to check on it, walking over there and doing it for her.)

      1. LawCat*

        Ugggggghhhhh.

        Maybe something like, “Jane, I understand you called Boss with questions about a form I submitted. I could have readily answered any questions. In the future, it would make more sense for you to direct questions about my work to me. Of course, we can go to Boss if it’s something I cannot answer. For now, please direct all such questions to me. Is that something you can do?”

        If you get some kind of pushback, just rinse and repeat: “Please direct questions about my work to me first. Is that something you can do?”

        Or if Jane trying to drag you into some sort of distraction (for me, I see a lot of passive aggressive types just changing the subject). “Before we talk about X, I want to be sure we’re on the same page about directing questions about my work to me before going to Jane. Is that something you can do?”

      2. Janey*

        Firstly, I should note that my perspective is coming from someone who deals with a high volume of interdepartmental/interorg technical communication, and so I may be slightly more sympathetic to your coworker (who I will call Jane) than she deserves, based solely on the limited anecdotes provided.

        You may want to consider rephrasing “efficiency” in your head a little bit in order to make the situation more tolerable. Since Jane is contacting your Boss, and your Boss is pushing back on you, not on Jane, that suggests that efficiency is not “I do things the way that seems to me objectively best/quickest” but “I do SOME things ridiculously in order to minimize Jane aggravating my boss and because it is more expedient in the long term.” This is because, as things currently stand, you are probably not going to persuade your boss that Jane is being ridiculous, since Jane being ridiculous has not already persuaded your boss of that fact. This may also mean that there’s a culture misfit happening. Do most people jump straight to contacting higher ups with cross-division problems? Has Jane always done this with you, or did she start doing at some point? Does Jane do this with anyone else?

        Depending on what the company culture is, you could approach your Boss, and say “Some of Jane’s questions are usually quite minor, and are things I could answer quickly without her bothering you. Would you mind if I asked her to get in touch with you only if she’s unable to get a satisfactory resolution from me?” You might also try going to Jane and saying “Hey, I noticed you called my boss first about these questions, is there a reason you didn’t bring it straight to me?” Then listen to what she has to say, and then say. “In the future, I think it might make it easier on both of us if you just called me first. Can you do that next time?” It kind of sounds like you may both be at BEC with each other. Which means that if you want Jane to get in touch with you first, you may need to be willing to bend on the phone thing. (Though I’m with you that phones are absolutely the worst compared to email).

        And, if you ask Jane why she does this, really listen to what she says. You may also want to consider if there is any common theme in Jane’s complaints/what she has questions about. [Begin rant from personal experience] I say this because, frankly, it is inefficient for me to have to pore through a document to figure out where, if anywhere, an acronym is explained, then go back to my place, reread what is going on with this in mind. Now sure, if this document is for me, I’ll just mutter grumpily and deal. But if I’m screening the document before it goes on to someone else, especially a customer, or a supervisor who’ll just have time to skim it, I may kick it back to the original person who submitted it with “please fix”. I could correct it myself and overall that would make the process take less time, but it’s not an efficient use of MY time to do so. [/end rant from personal experience]

        It’s quite possible Jane is simply being ridiculous and passive aggressive for no remotely sympathetic reason. In which case you may need to use the scripts, and get used to doing some things that make you cringe/roll your eyes. Or find some other position.

        1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

          I definitely agree that you should go to your boss and ask if boss would mind you reaching out to redirect Jane. You can then talk to Jane.

          It would also be wise to then follow up with your Boss and ask her to reinforce with Jane if Jane contacts her again. Boss should really be doing the pushback here. Boss shouldn’t want Jane’s interruptions when you can handle them.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            In the past I have just asked the boss if she could ask Jane to contact me directly.

            This has been enough to solve the problem in most cases.

        2. VermiciousKnit*

          I have no idea if Jane does this to this extent to other people, but I also know some of her gripes with me are things she needs to suck up and deal with. I work a different, later schedule than everyone else in our position, both for personal reasons and to match that of my boss, who works into the evenings most nights, and I’m more helpful to her then than coming in earlier when she’s in meetings. Jane has directly expressed that she doesn’t like that I’m not available in the mornings and that I bring things over to her office in the evenings after everyone is gone because that’s when my boss signed off on them.

          This also meant that when they instituted a morning-break coverage schedule for the front desk, I was unavailable to participate in coverage because it happens before my hours start. When I was removed from the rotation, she threw an actual yelling fit. I do know that she has thrown fits over the front-desk break schedule on other people who were excused before (they worked out of different locations and their bosses didn’t want them to travel 30+ minutes plus transition time to cover a 15 minute break.)

          There are some things I could probably try to do more her way, but a lot of the time she dings me for things that are either excessively minor or not in my control (also this morning, for example, she called my boss to ask me for an agenda to be included on a form, when I’d already attached the save-the-date information for the conference with a note that the agenda hadn’t been released yet.)

          2. Janey*

            My sympathies, Jane sounds utterly miserable to deal with. Has your boss said anything in particular to you about Jane’s questions to make you think Jane really is influencing boss’s opinion of you?

            One possibility might be to track all Jane’s calls for a week or two, and then take it to your boss and say “I know Jane’s called you x times in the past time period. Here’s how I’m planning to handle y and z moving forward to prevent this in the future, but as far as I can tell there isn’t anything I can do differently for the other (x-2) times. I’m planning to ask Jane to bring her concerns to me first, but how would you like me to handle Jane’s concerns about my hours/whatever else Jane is being ridiculous about.” This would hopefully make your boss aware that you are working to minimise the Jane-induced interruptions, that you’re willing to work with Jane when the requests are semi-reasonable, but that you really can’t do anything differently when Jane calls your Boss asking for information you already indicated you don’t have.

            And then use LawCat’s scripts with Jane/try to trust that your Boss won’t ding you for Jane’s lack of reading comprehension/inability to handle people having different hours than she does.

            1. VermiciousKnit*

              Yeah the trouble is while my boss never indicates that I’m in trouble in the moment, she ends up with an overall impression that she has to micromanage more than she should when people copy her in emails about something I’m working on and/or call her when they should be calling me. Some of them have been brought up in reviews, and it’s clear that it doesn’t matter what the *content* of these are (example: the woman who coordinates purchasing ccs a person’s supervisor whenever she sends an email to anyone. Lots of times she’s just asking me for a clarification or status on something, and often not on my own items but asking me to liaise with staff in my area. This is not an issue at all, but my boss has both commented and written in my review that I need to “be more independent and accurate with purchasing” because of the number of emails that get copied to her.)

              I’ve successfully argued a few of these things off my reviews with documentation that she was just copied in on normal exchanges and not problems, but it definitely made me realize that my boss judges my performance based mostly on the expectation that she’s hands-off with my tasks, and therefore any communication she has to deal with is A Problem.

              This is really an unfortunate quality of my boss, but I also know that Jane in the higher-up office is aware of this, and given her animosity toward me, exploiting it. I’m just unsure how to defuse the situation when I’m not actually making mistakes.

          3. a little temping teapot*

            Oh goodness, I think you’re working with my most hated ex-coworker. Or there’s more than one person out there who behaves at work just like she did.

    2. Feathers McGraw*

      No advice but major sympathies. New head of parallel dept cc’s my boss AND grandboss in emails they just don’t need to be on and I always feel like it makes me look bad.

    3. the.kat*

      Can you ask your boss to redirect her questions to you? Maybe take a case like the one you’ve mentioned to your boss and point out that it could be handled much faster if she’d just bring it to you directly. Let your boss know that you’ve approached her about it and the habit hasn’t changed. You appreciate that your boss is busy and can handle most of these issues on your own.

      If your boss is on your side redirecting things, I’m assuming that the issue could correct itself.

    4. kbeers0su*

      Has your boss brought it up with you as an issue? Depending on how long each of you have been there, boss may already know that this person is just like that, and that may be why boss hasn’t approached you about it.

      Alternately, if you think it may cause/be causing an issue, I’d bring it up proactively with boss. Explain that you know that boss prefers you to handle these things, that you’ve directed this person to come to you directly, etc.

      1. VermiciousKnit*

        Not exactly. It just has become clear during my last yearly review and comments that even though these kinds of things aren’t my doing, she basically judges the success of my performance on how hands-off she can be with me, and someone calling her for a problem makes her annoyed, and that annoyance passes on to me instead of Jane.

        Jane is a suck-up and regarded as like the gold-standard of our position, even though she’s super nasty and prone to completely unprofessional fits of temper. I don’t get it at all.

    5. LCL*

      You two are different personalities. I don’t see anything passive aggressive in what you describe, but I understand you believe her to be passive aggressive. You also sound like you believe your way is always the best and her way sucks. As based on your descriptions of you vs her. Frankly, I know you are frustrated with her, but your description of her reads as a bit contemptuous and if she is picking up on this she won’t deal with you anymore and instead will go over your head.

      And in this part you answer your own question:
      ‘she calls my boss first instead of me, even if it’s a question I could handle…’
      then ‘I hate phones, so much. She refuses to email me questions, ever…’
      If your position with her is email me or don’t talk to me, you have given her a choice and she has made it.

      One thing that really helps in working with people who you believe are ruled by tradition is to ask them the reason behind the tradition. There is always a reason for tradition, but sometimes the reason is outdated or circumstances change. Everyone benefits from these discussions, if they can be kept respectful. Companies need the questioners and the upholders of tradition to be successful.

      1. VermiciousKnit*

        She can always call me. I answer the phone whenever she does with a chipper “Hi Jane, how can I help you?” Just because I hate phones doesn’t mean I’m inept at them or refuse to answer.

        1. OhBehave*

          I do see her behavior as passive-aggressive. She’s attempting to present herself as a someone on top of things while at the same time, portraying you as incompetent.

          When you find out that she’s asked your boss a question that’s yours to answer, just send a quick email to ask her to contact you first. “Hi Jane. I noticed that you contacted boss about xyz. In order to get a quicker response, please contact me directly instead of going through him.” This is played on a loop until something changes.

          Have you asked boss why he thinks she contacts him with these questions and not you directly? He’s unreasonable in his assumption that emails concerning your work are an indictment of your abilities.

    6. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      My opinion may be off but, it sounds like she is trying to angle herself into a higher position than really she is — rather than be in a parallel position to you, she is trying to assert that she is higher — maybe on a parallel position to your boss. I know a person like this at work. It’s somewhat hard to describe but he sits next to the big bosses at meetings where his level would normally sit maybe a row back or something (not assigned there, just an unspoken etiquette), gets himself on committees or in meetings that aren’t really his territory, and makes a habit of calling and emailing big bosses directly instead of their exec assistants — because obviously he doesn’t need to go through gate-keepers (Equals talk to each other as it were). He wants direct contact so that he gets to be known.

      On the refusal to email — I have found people like this are very often unwilling to “put it in writing” so that they have plausible deniability later. If your coworker has a lot of questions, or asks the same questions over and over, or gets snarky, that makes her look like she is unable/unwilling to do her job. Keep following up your phone conversations with an email recap — that way you have proof you are giving her the necessary information in a timely fashion, if necessary.

      Try to keep in mind that she is likely to end up annoying your boss and making herself look bad. Point out to your boss that she is the only one who does this (I’m assuming), and ask boss to redirect her to the “appropriate person” (meaning you) because obviously coworker is just confused about who she should be contacting. Since you two have a history of personality clashes, I just don’t think anything you say is going to change her behavior. Your boss should be the one to shut it down by directing her to you each time.

      1. VermiciousKnit*

        She’s one of two people. The other one bombards her with cc’ed emails over standard questions, but she definitely does that to absolutely everyone and not just me.

  29. Sigh*

    I’m dealing with staff drama – my staff is currently located in three different spots in our building, and our director would like to bring us all together so we can use the space for other stuff. There are a couple of them who have a semi-private office that are heavily pushing back against this change. My department has more office space than any other department, so I get no sympathy from any of the other managers. How do I handle this so as to not upset my entire department?

      1. Sigh*

        Not necessarily. We haven’t decided yet – this wouldn’t happen until next year but people are already stressed about it. I would push back against a totally open plan.

        1. BRR*

          I want to make sure that I understand that they’re losing an office (shared office?)

          What about asking what their needs are to make the new space work for them. I don’t know what their responses will be but would it help getting them some work from home time?

    2. Victoria, Please*

      I had something quite similar a few years ago. Your staff are going to be upset, no way around that. You can mitigate it by pressuring your director to provide niceties in the new space that they don’t have in their current spaces; if there can’t be semi-private offices, can there be sit-stand desks, new chairs, other things? High partitions so the semi-privacy is somewhat maintained? Are there other issues — are the people who share the semi-private office both smokers, for example. If they see you going to bat for them, they will at least not blame you.

      Your director also needs to explain her reasoning and how using space differently helps the business and then ultimately helps everyone.

    3. OhBehave*

      Ah, CHANGE! The bane to managers everywhere :)

      I can say from experience that this needs to be handled with care. Decisions that need to be made about placement, remodeling, etc., need to be made sooner rather than later. Take into consideration what those moving currently have in their offices. If you have enough space to make every office semi-private, do so. Open plan offices are horrible. Once you have a primary office plan in place, bring people over for a ‘tour’ so they can know what to expect.

      Communication is key. Keep everyone in the loop on the planning. It seems like overkill, but they already “know” how horrible this is going to be.

      Most of them will be upset. It’s the nature of the beast. They WILL get over it. If it’s the managers of those offices that are having the biggest fit, you need to meet with them. They set the tone for their office. If they are ticked, everyone else will be too. Ensure them that every consideration will be made in redesigning the space. This move cannot affect productivity.

      Keep in mind that this is an adjustment for your office as well. It sounds like I recommend handling these people like toddlers, maybe that’s true, but this reaction is really typical human behavior whether you’re three or fifty!

  30. Cruciatus*

    I work at a university that is small but is a branch campus of a Big 10 school (though they had the word “branch campus”). I interviewed internally for another department which went pretty well, but I was pretty deflated after my phone conversation with HR which was the final thing. The other job is 2 salary bands higher than mine currently, and each band has a low, middle, and high end. The HR person said “Oh, this will be quite a nice bump for you if you get it!” then proceeded to give a number just over $1000 more than I make now. I’m at the middle of my current salary band and so the new salary would be at the low end, which was very disappointing. She said it might not be the final number as she has to look into things like my equity in the system (?) and years of experience but that it wouldn’t be near the middle level (that, anecdotally, I have heard was typical to receive, especially for internal transfers). The HR person told me that the university looks at all others in the same category and their level of experience and how much they are paid. I’d like to move to this new department (if I’m chosen), but I’m not sure $1000 is enough of a push. I really thought this was going to be a large jump (from 30K to 40Kish) based on those chats with coworkers who have been here forever and transferred a lot. Now, I get I might not get 10K more, but I think I’d really like to get 5K more and I do have lots of experience with many of the duties I would be doing in the new position.

    So if I get a really low number, working at a university with weird salary systems, is it at all reasonable to go to the person who’d be my supervisor and say, “I’d really love to work here but this is 2 categories higher and they are only offering X amount?” HR seemed weird about it all suggesting that it’s all based on the equity, experience, and levels of other people across the university system. I don’t know if negotiating is appropriate for this situation at my university employer.

    1. Buffy*

      We might be at the same Big10 university. (Although we aren’t officially allowed to call them “branch campuses.”) I moved from a part time job to a full time one within the university and was able to negotiate, no problem. (I think you should – I vaguely remember Alison saying to aim for a 10-15% bump in pay with each new job.)

      The only issue you might run into is I’ve heard rumors that at my workplace, two units can’t “bid against each other.” I take that to mean you can’t interview for a job, get an offer and then go back to original job and ask them to bump up your salary to match the new offer.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      At the very, very least, your HR person should not have said “Oh, this will be quite a nice bump for you if you get it!” before dropping that sad figure. I’d be pissed about this.

      If I were in your shoes, I would just be honest with HR in your communications, and tell them you’d be hard-pressed to take a job with more responsibility that is disadvantageous to you, salary-wise. I don’t know how your structure works over there or what kind of relationship you have with your would-be supervisor, but depending on how close you are it might be a good idea to talk to her about it.

      If it helps you maintain your fire about this, an increase of $1000 amounts to about $19 extra per week, before tax.. which is low.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      A previous poster (from a couple months ago?) on salary negotiations (sorry, don’t have the URL for it handy) mentioned a response s/he used when answering the “what are your salary expectations?” question. I think this discussion took place over the telephone, so s/he said, in a concerned voice, “I really want to come work for you, but I really can’t leave my current job for less than $X thousand” … and then just let it hang there.

      As far as talking with the Hiring Manager goes, only you know your campus culture, and HR’s reach, well enough to know whether news of such a visit (1) is likely to get back to HR and (2) will have an adverse effect (or not) on your candidacy. As I see it, what it comes down to is, who determines your salary offer? If HR is typically the bridge between the Hiring Manager and the candidate, then you may be out of luck, since the university is obviously using HR as a buffer between the Hiring Manager and potential candidates. However, if it’s HR that does the salary setting, it might be worth a shot–*after* you get the offer but *before* you accept–to make an appointment to talk with the Hiring Manager to ask for any insights s/he might have on HR’s recent practices regarding salary negotiations. Do let us know how things worked out, whatever you decide.

    4. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      I had this exact situation. My experience and such should have put me in the middle, but HR was insisting on using entry level – even though the Dean and Provost all agreed with my middle range offer and my salary was coming from their budget. I ended up having to get the bargaining unit rep to intercede: according to the bargaining agreement, I was required to be in the middle. I transferred with a compromise of lower middle, and about 18 months after, the University president did an Equity Evaluation on all staff members and ranked staff on how far off from their bargained salary the staff members were. I was more than 10% off and received an Equity Adjustment.

      It sounds like your University is very similar. Salary is about equity. If you get hired on at $40k but someone else has been in that position for 10 years and is at $37k, that isn’t equitable. It’s a mixed bag sometimes, but it can be helpful when the University is unwilling to do any salary adjustments but the bargaining unit is able to force COL.

    5. Pat Benetardis*

      I don’t know about at a university, but in private industry I had this happen with a candidate. I was really glad that I was alerted so I could go to HR and make the case for more money. I don’t see why a hiring manager, regardless of the setting, wouldn’t want to know what had gone wrong and try to intervene.

    6. BRR*

      With the information you’ve given, I would negotiate. Besides hearing the middle of the band is typical for internal transfers, how do you compare to the things they’re asking for in the posting? That’s what I woudl focus on. I’m not sure if you can go around HR to the hiring manager.

  31. Lolo*

    Any good tips or tricks on how to ‘manage up’? I have a manager who is in meetings and traveling a great deal, not a great communicator even when available or on email… while others say you need to “manage up” I’m not sure I have many openings to do so.

    Anyone have any experience to share? Thanks in advance.

    1. regina phalange*

      I am not sure this counts, but if you need his approval on something can you just make the decision instead based on what you think is best and then email to tell him the decision (not ask) and explain why you made it? I am not really sure how to manage up either, but that has worked well for me because my boss is often traveling and it meetings and I can’t wait for him to approve a decision that needs to be made.

    2. Jill of All Trades*

      I don’t technically have a supervisor, and all of the people who do supervise my work have different styles…but all of them need me to manage up. All of them. In different ways. Here’s what I’ve found to be successful:

      – Ask them to make time for you when you need them to. Depending on your work dynamic and style of work, this could be on an ad hoc basis like, “Can I put a call on your calendar for [topic]? If your schedule is up to date I’ll just find a good time for both of us,” or it could be a weekly/monthly meeting to catch up on your work.

      – Set your own structure for your interactions with your boss. This means coming to any meetings or discussions with a set agenda and list of things you would like to accomplish. Whenever possible, don’t let your boss get away with giving you a wishy-washy answer to your questions if you genuinely need an answer or decision to move forward with your work.

      – Solicit feedback. This can take different forms, such as a general sit down to talk about performance overall, or it can be in the form of, “Can you review this before I send it out to make sure it’s in line with your expectations?” I do both on a regular basis with each of the people I support.

      – When you do need their support, request it in specific ways. “I’m not sure how to approach [x],” is usually not specific enough in my experience. “I’m not sure if there’s a way I should be approaching [x] to maximize our teapot support production. I would appreciate hearing your thoughts.” The difference is that you’re indicating what your priorities are in that statement so your boss can then address it in the moment.

      – Keep track of what you do. This doesn’t have to be literally every detail, but keeping a weekly list or To Do list that can be referenced later to demonstrate your work (e.g. developed and distributed 13 TPS reports to teapot production staff). When you think you’ve done something well or get positive feedback on your work, jot that down or label it with something specific in your email so you can point to your strengths if your boss ever comes back to you with general criticisms that you don’t agree with.

      In my work, I’ve pretty much taken AAM’s ideas for managing direct reports and begun handling or initiating the responsibilities that I think I need most to excel as an employee. If my manager drops the ball on the rest, that’s really up to them and the company.

      1. Jill of All Trades*

        OH! I almost forgot one of the most important ones!

        Set deadlines and expectations for your boss, too. “I need a response on [x] by [date] if I’m going to be able to get this out on time.” That goes for priorities, too. If your boss asks you to take anything on and you don’t have the capacity, propose to them a way to re-prioritize your work so you can get done what they ask while setting the expectation that other work may be postponed.

    3. Terra Firma*

      One thing that works well for me as a manager is asking each of my direct reports “Is there anything you need from me?” We have weekly one on ones, and I expect them to come to met with anything that comes up urgently between the formal connects. Their requests range from an extra review of a client presentation they’re not sure of, to sending an e-mail to escalate the urgency of a request they made but can’t get traction on (the higher the title, the faster you tend to get a response in my industry).

      When I’m “managing up” to my boss, I like to assume he’s asked this question of me, even if he hasn’t. I frame all of my requests in a simple “Here’s what would help me achieve goal X, can you help me with that?” You can frame those requests via e-mail and follow up if you don’t get a response.

  32. Teapot librarian*

    I need to brag on myself a bit. This week I’ve really demonstrated improvement as a manager. I had a strong conversation with one of my employees yesterday where I told him about a new procedure that he disagrees with, and I held my ground, then I pointed out to him that he hasn’t been working a full eight hours a day, and that one of his coworkers cannot drive him to a medical appointment (!) in a business-owned vehicle (!!) during the workday. Then today I placed another one of my employees on leave restriction, and as soon as employee #3 comes back from whatever he’s doing at the moment, I’m having a conversation with him. AND on top of all that, I’m redoing my employees’ weekly reports to get a lot more information from them (currently they only report monthly) that will actually align with their performance plans and will give me a better sense of how productive they each are. (Or will jolt them into wasting less time.)

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      Wow, you’re on a tear this week. Well done! With any luck, this will result in measurably improved performance for the team.

  33. Wayland*

    So our new CIO, Montgomery C, just laid off four key staff members (we’re a small organization at a university), theoretically as traditional Reductions in Force, but these are all people he clashed with and he’s made it clear this was out of spite.

    Morale here is shot. I’m trying to support the team I manage as they go through this. Does anyone have any good tips for being a manager in this sort of environment? I want to avoid casually parroting the CIO, as lying to them does no good (and is obvious), as I know they’re hurting. But I don’t just want to tell them “this place sucks and we should just leave,” since I still have some hope that maybe Monty will find a job elsewhere, or that his shenanigans will be noticed by those above him (and also because it’s not right to do so as a manager).

    1. Dr. Doll*

      Nice. Typique.

      How about: “We don’t have the full story so I don’t want to talk about why what happened, happened. I know we’ll all really miss Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Let’s think of strategies to re-allocate work to continue to serve our faculty and students. I’m proud of our work.”

      And document the hell out of your work so if Monty wants to make further reductions he’ll have to show serious cause.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh.

      I have said things like, “Until things change this is what we have. Understand that we all feel a similar level of discomfort. So we have that in common and we can support each other through it.”

      IF you know Monty will be leaving, in that case, I have said things like, “I have been here a while. I know that most things that happen here we can just ride it out and it will look differently in a bit. Since I have seen this too many times already, I feel comfortable saying that about our current concern.”

  34. Amber Rose*

    I’m trying to reduce the amount of time I spend running around getting signatures on paperwork. For example, one thing I do needs six signatures! Each supervisor, then a manager. It’s annoying, takes forever, I can’t find people half the time or they’re out of the office, and interrupting people to ask them to sign stuff sets off my anxiety, meaning I get behind on my paperwork pretty fast or sometimes stuff doesn’t get done because I just can’t face it. The nature of my role means nobody notices or cares when my work doesn’t get done, but my program is being externally audited this summer and the missing stuff is going to impact our score.

    How do I convince my boss that digital signatures are a good idea? He seems to think that they mean people aren’t looking at stuff, but from my perspective, people never read the papers I hand them, just sign them and never see them again. At least the way I want to do it, they end up with a digital copy they can keep and review before signing.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      We’ve used digital signatures for about 3 years at my company, and we’re a pretty big F500 company. Digital signatures are more secure Would that carry weight with him?

      I like that you don’t have to print anything and you can route the docs through email so you can get signatures from people who are OOO.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Security isn’t really a thing here. This is just routine paperwork. The problem is, upper management seems to really not get technology (despite having Engineering in the name of the company). I once tried and failed to convince my boss that a 1 MB file was not too big for someone to download on their phone.

        1. Paige Turner*

          Ha- I do admin assistant-type work for programmers/software engineers and it’s always amazing to me when I have to explain simple stuff like how to use an app to digitally sign a form to people with CS degrees who make 3x what I do :(

    2. Paige Turner*

      Yes, I get signatures on forms from a lot of remote people so digital signatures are a big help. Adobe digital signatures are best but there are also the programs like DocHub that let people upload a hand-written signature and insert it on the form. For your boss, it might help to say that digital signatures allow you to get signatures faster and also provide you with back-ups to help with the audit. The main problem I have with them is that no matter how clearly I state in an email that a signature on a form MUST be hand signed or done with one of the programs mentioned and not “your name typed on the signature line in a cursive font” there is always at least one person who does just that. >:( I’ve had to get pushy with some people and tell them to resubmit the form correctly.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      We reviewed our sign-off procedures and came to the conclusion that 1/2 of the signatures were not necessary. Some people said they didn’t need to review the paperwork since they had been reviewing it through out it’s creation. Others didn’t know why they were even in the rotation, just were just signing because they were told to.
      I don’t know if it would work where you are, but if you can pressure someone above to question the process, you may get them engaged in changing things.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I did that also, and just straight up eliminated all those superfluous signatures. It’s my department, so it’s my call. But some things are required by the government to be reviewed and signed by managers in every department, so one way or another I do need a signature on some stuff. I’m just really tired of hunting down 6 people for physical signatures when I could just email them.

    4. kbeers0su*

      Does boss know how much time you actually spend (on average) just trying to round up these signatures? I might present it from an efficiency standpoint, as well as reviewing the need for the signatures, as AndersonDarling pointed out. Especially if this isn’t that important of a form, they might realize that it’s just not worth the time/energy.

    5. Ann Cognito*

      We implemented DocuSign at a prior job for exactly the reason you state (I’m consulting now, and I use HelloSign for my letters of agreement with clients, and it’s also great).

      It was crazy trying to get signatures on documents, sometimes up to six at a time, since we were geographically dispersed, within a single county but still with the potential for one signature being one place, and the other 20 miles away. It was an easy sell when we analyzed first of all the delay in getting documents signed completely, meaning whatever was being signed for was held up by that period of time. Then there was the admin time/cost used trying to hunt down the missing form, which was inevitably buried on someones desk in its internal mail envelope, then the admin cost of traveling (by car) from site-to-site collecting signatures if something needed to be urgently signed, plus the cost of gas reimbursement. Once the software was implemented, everyone loved it and couldn’t believe we hadn’t done it years beforehand! The software keeps track of where the form is at all times, and send reminders to the person who has to sign.

      Even if you’re not traveling from location-to-location with the additional time away from a desk that that entails, surely your boss cares that using this inefficient means of collecting signatures is keeping you away from your actual work?

      If you boss doesn’t care about any of that, talk to him/her too about the upcoming audit and how you’re going to be dinged on that.

    6. OhBehave*

      Keep track of how much time it takes to get all of those signatures. It’s a silly thing to do with digital signatures the norm now.

      If you can limit the time you run around to get signatures, that may help. Say you plan to run from 2-3p.m. If you don’t find someone in, can you message them to stop by and sign? I would also ask the signers if they use digital signatures for other things. If this seems to be a popular thing amongst the majority, you may have standing to push this to your boss.

      I can say that your anxiety should not stop you, but that’s not how it works!

  35. Fulltimer*

    Full time employees at my company are staffed at least 40 hours per week; we are salaried, plus straight overtime (hourly rate, not time and a half).
    There are several in-house/staff meetings a month (around 4 hours worth), plus quarterly office meetings, plus we are encouraged to be involved in professional committees; most of this is mandatory/highly encouraged, but none of it is billable – there is no overhead or general office code for time sheets.

    For example, if I work my staffed 40 hours, but have 1 hour long in-house meeting I feel like my time sheet should be 41 hours, and I would get 1 hour of overtime pay.

    My questions – if you have to bill all your time, how does your office handle general office time? Is it worth pushing back on? If so, how would you phrase the request?

    1. Angelinha*

      At the nonprofits I’ve worked at, people who billed to more than one program would bill the program that was most closely related to the meeting for the hour they were in that meeting. Not being paid for staff meetings seems very weird – have they flat-out told you you can’t be paid for these?

      1. Fulltimer*

        For some meetings, the reminder email or Outlook description will include a line like “this meeting is not billable” or “there is no project number to bill time for this meeting”

        1. Observer*

          If you are exempt, they can pull this. If you are non-exempt, there needs to be some catch all code, or whatever, because they HAVE to pay you for any time you work – and meetings that you are REQUIRED to attend = work.

    2. Sibley*

      Assuming that you’re in the US, you have to be paid for time working. Doesn’t matter if that time is billable or not. Point out that they’re breaking the law.

      1. Taylor Swift*

        But I think not in this case because Fulltimer is salaried? She is getting paid her weekly salary, she’s just not getting anything extra.

          1. Natalie*

            If that was at issue, she would need to be paid time and a half for the overtime, rather than straight time.

    3. Margaret*

      I work in an industry with billable work (public accounting) – in addition to each client to bill time to, there’s a client that’s the firm name, and several nonbillable time codes, including one that’s just called “office general” (so when you’re just cleaning up your inbox, doing to-do list, etc.). Plus things like staff meeting, scheduling, committee, continuing ed, etc. That seems really weird to not having time entry for that kind of stuff. I have heard of places (somewhat in public accounting, but more in legal firms), where time expectations and termed in billable hours (e.g., instead of 40 hours total, you’re expected to have 40 billable), but they still acknowledge and allow for recording nonbillable hours, it’s just expected to be on top of other hours.

  36. namelesscommentater*

    I’ve been applying to an entry levelish position across the country. They don’t seem thrilled with my skillset as this position is recruitment/database management for a basket-weaving org. I have very little basket-weaving experience though I do have blanket-weaving experience.

    Despite that, they’ve continued to push me through round after round, and I was offered an in-person interview at my own expense. Before committing to it I want to ask how serious they are about me, despite my lack of basketweaving experience, as during interviews the response has been clear though unspoken disappointment. Is there a way that I can politely ask this so I know I’m not just a filler candidate?

    (For what it’s worth, I am likely to have other reasons to make the trip including interviews for jobs I’m more enthusiastic about, so while I’d never consider going solely for this interview, I’m interested enough to extend a trip for a day if schedules align.)

    1. Temperance*

      Scroll back a day or two in posts. Someone asked this very question and received a lot of good advice. It might have been yesterday morning’s 5 Questions.

      1. namelesscommentater*

        Thank you! I remember reading the first two in that post and must have gotten distracted midway through!

  37. Manders*

    Rant time: I just had one of the weirdest work weeks of my life. I came back from a week-long trip to find that one of the attorneys in the firm, who I thought was about to be made partner, was fired. And then both of my bosses were at a conference on Monday and Tuesday, so I had to get bits of information through the grapevine until Wednesday.

    On Wednesday, my direct manager sat me down and talked about the issue, and gave me a speech about how I could come to him with any morale problems. The awkward part: I *have* been coming to him and to my other boss with issues that are impacting my morale, like the fact that they seem to have forgotten to give me a performance review this year and the fact that it’s been really hard to focus in my office since they moved people who have to make calls all day into it. For months they’ve been saying that something will be done whenever I bring it up, and then nothing changes. I think in all the chaos it just slips their minds.

    I know it’s a small business and the two of them have been very busy lately, but I’m beginning to feel like I’m out of sight and out of mind. That’s why I left my last job–I did work quietly and reliably to the point I think my boss stopped noticing that he needed to act like a manager.

    1. kbeers0su*

      Ugh…bad management. There’s nothing that annoys me like someone asking/telling you to do something and you’ve already been doing that thing. All. Along.

    2. Manders*

      Urrrrgh, even more awkwardness: the social organizer is pushing me to RSVP for an after work event in July. She’s not giving me an answer on whether SOs can attend, and this is a sports event I dislike watching but would tolerate for my husband’s sake, since he likes watching it and has been asking me to go to a game for ages. And she started pressuring me to give an answer in front of a crowd of people, and my direct boss was telling me it was “weird” to only be willing to go if my spouse could go. It’s really not that weird to plan to hang out with your own spouse on a Friday evening!

      I’m also thinking that unless a performance review happens and I get at least a COL adjustment very soon, I will probably not still be working in this office in July. Sooooooo… how would you RSVP?

      1. Amy*

        July is so far in advance, would you be able to RSVP yes, and then if you find out spouses can’t go at a later date, come up with an excuse (e.g. “Family thing just came up for the same day! Sorry, but I’m not going to be able to make it after all.”) and back out?

        1. Manders*

          They’re booking the size of the space based on the number of people who RSVP yes, so if I RSVP and then back out, they’ll have wasted money. So I’m stuck in this weird loop of not being able to tell them what they need to know because they won’t tell me what I need to know.

          It’s not really a huge thing, I’m just at BEC stage with the whole morale-building situation today because I’ve been asking and asking for the things that *would* improve my morale and instead my morale is being further flattened by these “morale-building events.”

          1. rubyrose*

            RSVP for 2 people and make it plain that the second person is your SO. If she does not like it, she will come back to you with your answer. If it does turn out SOs are not welcome and you find that out later on, you have the proof and can then gracefully say no.

            1. Manders*

              There isn’t an option to RSVP for two–I have to RSVP for myself right away, and then find out after everyone has RSVPed if +1s are allowed. Sort of a party planning Prisoner’s Dilemma.

              Again, not a huge deal, but I guess my frustration over this stupid little detail is telling.

              1. SCAnonibrarian*

                “I’m sorry, but without knowing for sure that my SO is invited, I cannot in good conscience promise to attend x event. If the event does go forward and you are able to confirm that SOs are invited, please feel free to contact me again. In the meantime, I hope it’s a success and you have a great time!”

          2. Product person*

            If they are asking *you* to RSVP and not asking for the number of guests at the same time, I think it’s fair to assume it doesn’t include your husband and just decline!

  38. paul*

    I’m trying to convince my boss (and grandboss) to drop a phone number that has started to get an absolute ton of wrong number calls–for two or three other non-profits. It’s been going on ~8 months now and getting incredibly annoying. Wrong numbers happen, sure, but we’re talking 5-6 times per hour now. Unfortunately I’m meeting some resistance because it’s been our number for a long time.

    I can’t even figure out *why* this has been happening lately!

      1. paul*

        Yep, and I found one (funnily enough NOT one we’re getting calls for). I submitted a note or whatever Google calls it and it got changed. We’re getting tons of calls for a non-profit medical clinic (that we did used to office near, years and years ago before I worked here) and the Salvation Army. Which we’ve never officed with, near, or even worked with very much. ALso a smattering of calls for the local school district? Which is weird because our numbers aren’t even CLOSE to two of those. Our area codes are the same–smallish city, everyone’s are. But other than that? nope

        1. Natalie*

          Have you talked to the phone company? It’s not common but phone numbers can get misdirected.

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I get calls pretty often for a couple of other local businesses. I assume they have similar phone numbers though I’ve never bothered to investigate.

        3. Justme*

          Interesting. I’m in a small city too, but we have enough prefixes to the area code that those are uncommon. I do get calls for someone else on campus whose number isn’t remotely close to mine, and from the same person. Yours sounds maddening.

        4. Daisy*

          Does your city have a 211 service? It could be that someone has a number listed incorrectly on an internal directory and is misdirecting callers as a result.

          1. paul*

            If you *meant* 2-1-1 (Information & Referral for Health and Human Services) yes, that’s actually what I *do*. If you meant another N -11, we don’t have 311, 411 isn’t a city by city thing, our state doesn’t use 511 The calls are coming to an internal, supposed to not be published line we use for administrative purposes (tech support, if we have to call LEO’s or CPS or APS, stuff like that).

            1. Daisy*

              Yeah, I meant 211 (my city calls it a Community and Social Services Help Line). I wondered if there had been a data entry error, but I imagine you would have found that pretty quickly!

              Good luck with getting the number changed. It sounds annoying as all get0ut.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Could you look at the other non-profits and see if they have a wrong number on their website or some material. If your company has had the number for a long time, it’s probably a printing/typo error on their end, not yours. I mean, it shouldn’t really be your problem to fix, but since it is your problem (in a way, with all these calls interrupting you) it might worth 20 minutes of sleuthing to see if they updated their website and got a number wrong, etc.

      1. Cassandra*

        Yep, this is my guess. A popular summer program offered at the higher-ed institution I work for printed their brochure one year with a phone number one-digit-off from their actual one… and the misprinted number happened to be mine.

        It was awful. Especially the people who just could not grasp that they weren’t talking to the party they thought they were talking to.

        1. paul*

          Those are the worst! It’s like…I know who signs my paychecks ya dig? I’m pretty sure you *didn’t* reach who were looking for

    3. AndersonDarling*

      Ooo, I worked at a real estate company where the President had a pet charity. He told the charity to use our business phone number on their promotional pamphlets. He thought he would look like a big hero tying the charity to his personal business. Well, it took months to figure out why people were calling asking to set up appointments for prostate exams.
      It could be a case of cross marketing. We just had to ride the wave until everyone threw away their pamphlets.

    4. Aphrodite*

      This may take more time but can you ask each caller where they got your number and keep a list, either handwritten or in an Excel datasheet? You might find a trend here but even if you don’t it will help you track down information you can use to get it corrected.

    5. NotMyRealName*

      We had this happen at an old job. People would try to call 733-1980 but then push 3 an extra time and get us.

    6. Taylor Swift*

      My old desk number was one digit different from the main office number of two different divisions, both of which got a lot of calls from the public. It was such a PITA, and I did ask that that number not be used anymore, but nothing ever came of it.

    7. it happens*

      Two suggestions for tracing the root of the problem – google the number and see what shows up, this should unmask any orgs that have mistakenly listed your number as another and ask the people who are calling how they got the number. It sounds super annoying to deal with.

    8. BRR*

      Can you contact the other nonprofits and let them know? I would phrase it as it might be listed incorrectly somewhere and they are missing calls. That way it sounds like it’s helping them instead of saying how it’s annoying you.

      1. paul*

        Yeah, done that. Hasn’t helped :/ FWIW I can’t find it listed on their sites eithre.

        I *did* find a few oddball things where our phone number popped up for former programs we *used* to operate years and years ago–mostly in old news stores that people might still see on occasion–but A: I can’t get those removed and B: they’ve been out there for a decade, so I dont’ think they’re why the calls have shot up

  39. ArtK*

    Second issue. This is going to be long, drawn-out and confusing. Sorry. I’ll try to summarize at the end.

    Company is in deep financial trouble. Revenues not matching expenses by a huge margin. One payroll delayed by a week, another by a few days waiting for a customer’s check to come in.

    On Monday, the axe started to fall. CEO held an all-hands and announced a restructuring. Unfortunately, because most employees are in CA and they can’t tell someone they’re being let go without having the money to pay out PTO, people didn’t find out until late Tuesday. Not fun. Of my five person team, I lost my best engineer and both of my testers, leaving me with one engineer and myself. The decisions on who to lay off were made by the CEO and the board, neither I nor my boss (the CTO) were consulted at all. In fact, we didn’t know about this until about an hour before the all hands and even then didn’t know who was on the block.

    I’ve been trying to do my best for the people laid off. Put strong recommendations on their LinkedIn profiles and passed the link to Alison’s book as well. I’ve told them that they absolutely *can* use me as a reference. Is there anything else that I can do for them?

    Of course, survivor guilt is eating me alive.

    Finally, like a lot of the people left, I’ve lost any confidence in the company. While this reduction makes us profitable on paper (and therefore a better candidate for a merger or additional capital funding), it makes it impossible for us to meet some of our customer obligations. I’m not going back to 16 hour days and 70 hour weeks — I’m too old for that. I’ve started looking, using all the good resources. Alison’s book. This web site. Having friends look at my resume and cover letter. I have a lead on a possible job that I would *really* like for technical reasons, but it would mean a reduction in income (which we could handle, depending on how bad it was) and a commute.

    The real problem with looking is that if I go, half of our products will go into maintenance mode and that will kill any new sales. I’ve never liked being “the guy,” but that’s the situation. So there’s guilt around that, too.

    TL;DR:
    1) Is there anything else I can do for my laid-off people?
    2) How do I deal with survivor guilt?
    3) Any thoughts on balancing the positives/negatives for a potential new job?
    4) How do I deal with the “I’m going to kill the company if I leave” guilt?

    1. paul*

      Can’t speak for 1-3, but on 4: your company is *dying* regardless. They’ve gotten to the point they can’t make payroll. You’re not going ot kill them, they did that to themselves already.

    2. Graciosa*

      I really wanted to comment on the killing-the-company guilt.

      You are not responsible for the company’s management (financial or otherwise). They are responsible for making sure that critical functions can continue even if someone moves on to another position (which is hardly an unpredictable rarity, even in more stable times).

      The leaders who make the decisions about how to manage the company will reap the rewards – or consequences – of those decisions.

      Shielding them from the natural results of their own management decisions is NOT your job.

      1. ArtK*

        It’s more about the people than the company. There are still a number of very good people left and I’m feeling anticipatory guilt about *them*.

          1. Graciosa*

            Exactly – and again, NOT your job to suffer on their behalf.

            If they’re good human beings, they wouldn’t want you to sacrifice yourself.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            You can help them feel better about you by covering your own butt. It’s probably obvious to you but worth saying, once you find that new company maybe you will be able to connect some of these folks to jobs in your new company.

        3. Observer*

          Yeah, but if the company doesn’t have any plans on how to deal with the inevitable jumpers, they haven’t thought through the RIF. Which means that the company is a zombie already anyway.

          In other words, your staying or going is not going to be the thing that makes or breaks the company.

    3. Amber Rose*

      1) You’ve done all you can realistically do.
      2) By reminding yourself that you had nothing to do with it, you did what you could for them, and the company is dying and those people are now free to pursue better opportunities in companies that aren’t shadowed by impending doom.
      4) At this point you’re listening to the company’s dying gasps anyway, from what it sounds like. Do you really, honestly, think new sales will happen if you stay? Enough to save the whole thing, make the company viable again?

      1. ArtK*

        There’s a somewhat reasonable chance that someone would now buy the company. Or at least half of it — some of our problem is that we’re in two somewhat different markets. Before the restructure, I know that there was at least one laughable offer. It sounded like they wanted to buy the customer list at fire-sale prices.

        One of the problems is that nobody in this area is making money yet. The concepts are too new, although there are a lot of government regulations mandating this sort of thing. Sadly, several of our competitors are financed well enough that they can take losses for now, and undercut our prices.

        It’s complicated. There have been some very, very bad decisions. There have been decisions made that seemed reasonable at the time but failed to pan out. One of the big frustrations is a lot of personal politics that could be tolerated by a large company but have a huge impact on a small one.

        But there I go… trying to justify staying… *sigh*

        1. Joshua*

          If your company is bought there is no guarantee that the company as you know it will be the same. Often with mergers things get shaken up a lot and you don’t know what that’ll do to your job. You need to do what’s best for you.

    4. H.C.*

      1. Provide a good reference (+ a public endorsement on LinkedIn), and if your professional network has openings that are appropriate for their skills/experience level, feel free to forward it to them and offer to help make connections.
      2. If a short-term therapy resource is available (EAP, through your medical provider, etc.) – utilize it to sort out your feelings of survivor guilt
      3. I would say look towards the long-term and see how potential new jobs help your career
      4. As paul noted, the company is already on really shaky financial ground – don’t hold yourself responsible for an already sinking ship, esp. if you are not in an exec leadership role.

    5. Creag an Tuire*

      4) In your own words: “While this reduction makes us profitable on paper (and therefore a better candidate for a merger or additional capital funding), it makes it impossible for us to meet some of our customer obligations.”

      This company is already dead. It died and is now a zombie. The best-case scenario is that these customers begin to leave, not look back, and poison your brand on the market. The plausible worse-case scenario is that they sue to have their obligations met.

      Make your escape plan with a clear conscience.

      1. PollyQ*

        +1. Do what you can for your employees in terms of references & referrals, but start job-hunting for yourself NOW.

    6. Undine*

      Change is hard, and I’m wondering if some of the guilt might be displacement for fear and anger. (And a need for control.) Because they’ve been total jerks, made a lot of mistakes, and harmed a lot of people, including you. And also it sounds like an uncertain industry, with a lot of change, so even perfection may not have saved them.

      So be scared, be angry, be uncertain. You don’t have to act out of that yet. Be clear to yourself you won’t work unreasonable amounts, and be clear to work, to the extent it won’t destroy your recommendations.

      As far as supporting your colleagues who were let go, you might suggest a team get-together, lunch or something (somewhere affordable, and maybe kick in a big part of the check). Just to say you were glad having them on the team and you appreciate their work. Keep that human connection for them and see them face to face.

      For another job — it’s scary, but interviewing is not a commitment. Maybe this one would be a great opportunity, maybe not, but it sounds like you haven’t even seen a full job description yet, let alone interviewed. You don’t have to get this all pinned down in advanced, you can see when you have more information.

  40. Anon customer service researcher*

    I’m in a strategic working group at my new job, and we’re researching customer service tips for our office (we perform administrative tasks- budget and HR functions on behalf of scientific labs). For my part, I’m looking into ways people informally check in with their customers (outside of whatever survey your operating unit/company does) to make sure people are happy with your services/availability/etc. I’d love to hear from you guys if you’re willing to share your stories or pitfalls with this sort of concept- thank you :)

    1. Aisling*

      As a customer, I don’t think there is a way to informally do it. And, if you are already sending out a survey, anything else is going to be overkill. I get bombarded by survey requests from a number of companies I do business with, and I usually don’t respond, as it would take too much time to do them all. If I got one from a company and then got a follow up email or phone call, asking how things are going, I would be pretty annoyed. Especially if I had filled out the survey and the company is still trying to follow up.

      This is probably not what you’re wanting to hear, but to me, informally means if we run in to each other outside of work or some networking event and it comes up then. Anything else to me would be formal.

    2. Fantasma*

      The companies I’ve worked for check for feedback informally on social media. You can either pose questions or polls on your company channels and do searches for what people say about your product or service.

  41. Telly*

    What are your favorite workday motivation songs? What do you listen to when you need a boost in energy, drive, and positivity? I’m making myself a playlist.

    1. I like kid's movies*

      Everything is Awesome (from the Lego movie) and Try Everything (from Zootopia)

    2. katamia*

      Joanna Pacitti’s Watch Me Shine. If you’ve seen Legally Blonde, it’s the song where Elle Gets Serious about doing well at Harvard, lol.

    3. Temperance*

      I play “Eye of the Tiger” if I want to feel pumped. I have a special gym playlist to encourage myself that I will also play at work. It includes songs like “Momma Said Knock You Out”, “Dontcha” by the Pussycat Dolls, and other assorted pop and hip-hop songs.

      1. Effie*

        “Clubbed to Death” from the Matrix and “I’ll Make a Man Out of You” from Mulan are both great pump-it-up/get focused songs for me!

    4. Manders*

      Video game soundtracks! They’re designed to help you focus, plus most of them are on Spotify and Youtube. I’ve had soundtracks from my favorite Telltale, Bioware, and Gearbox games on rotation lately.

      1. Purest Green*

        Yes! I was going to suggest the same. The London Philharmonic Orchestra has a couple great albums of video game music.

    5. Muzak*

      “Guns & Ships” – Hamilton
      “Sorry” – Justin Bieber
      “Cake by the Ocean” – DNCE
      “Run the World (Girls)” – Beyonce
      “Victorious” – Panic! at the Disco
      “Ballroom Blitz” – Sweet
      “Drag Me Down” – One Direction
      “Body & Blood” – clipping.

      I only have a fraction of my music library right now, but I generally find plugging any of these into Pandora gives me a good place to start.

    6. paul*

      Stan Rogers–Northwest Passage, Barret’s Privateers (this better be on headphones). He’s got lots of other good stuff but most it makes me weepy more than hyped.

      James McMurtry–Sluefoot, Holiday, Can’t Make it Here, Old Part of Town, a lot of others.

      Silo Road: Last Call Love, pretty much anything on that album

      Steave Earle: Copperhead Road, Guitar Town, Streets of Bakersfield

      The Eagles: Peaceful, Easy Feeling. Witchy Woman. Lying Eyes. Hotel California. Outlaw Man

      Ghost: pretty much all of it? Kind of industrial heavy metal?

      Most of these need headphones due to themetic elements or strong language (“Goddamn them all/I was told/We’d cruise the seas for American gold!/We’d fire no guns, shed no tears….now I’m a broken man on a Halifax pier, the last of Barret’s privateers!”

      1. Manders*

        The Nancy by Stan Rogers is another good song for getting hyped up. And I like his version of Maid on the Shore, but not everyone gets as hyped up as I do to songs about con artists.

      1. Purest Green*

        Also!
        The Cars: “Let the Good Times Roll”
        David Bowie: “Suffragette City”
        Violent Femmes: “Gone Daddy Gone”
        The Flaming Lips: “This Here Giraffe”
        Talking Heads: “Psycho Killer”
        Kraftwerk: Anything really

        I might be highly strange. :|

        1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

          No chance! :) (your list is rather related to mine… see below)

          I work in an open office so headphones and music are paramount; but we are big musicheads in my household anyway.

          If I really need to concentrate – anything by bvdub. The man puts out like 4 albums a year and they all sound the same but any of his songs make me concentrate like no other. Lately its been a lot of:

          Ultravox: “Vienna”, “Thin Wall”, “The Voice” and “Lament”
          Underworld: “Slow Slippy”, anything from Barbara, Barbara We Face A Shining Future
          Visage: “Whispers” ,”Look What They’ve Done”, “We Move (Dance Mix)”
          Vangelis: Blade Runner soundtrack
          Depeche Mode: Where’s the Revolution (fingers crossed for a decent album!)

          Looking at that list I guess I haven’t ventured much above S lately on the ol’ ipod :/

        2. Delta Delta*

          Not strange – totally some songs you can scream-sing along with. This is a good list!

    8. Lady Julian*

      Anything by Fun, Imagine Dragons, Lindsey Stirling, American Authors, Bastille, or Lorde. I also listen to a lot of classical/soundtrack stuff (think How to Train a Dragon soundtrack), because it doesn’t get repetitive and is good background noise.

    9. AndersonDarling*

      Whenever I need a giggle, I hum the “Chico’s Monkey Farm” tune from Family Guy. How can you not feel better after that?

    10. Garland not Andews*

      The Piano Guys – (It’s Gonna Be) Okay & Themes from Pirates of the Caribbean

    12. Beancounter Eric*

      The 9th Symphony – Ludwig van Beethoven
      Soundtrack from “Battle of Britain” – Ron Goodwin and Sir William Walton
      Anything by John Phillip Sousa, preferably played by the Marine Band
      Anything played by the Band of the Black Watch
      Voices – Russ Ballard
      Anything by the Rippingtons
      Switched On Bach – Wendy Carlos
      The Wall – Pink Floyd

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        Very interesting choice of Carlos there! Just last weekend I picked up a fab copy of the Clockwork Orange ST on vinyl that I need to get into… once we get a record player. Very intrigued by his/her stuff and would like to get more into it this year.

    13. joeiron*

      Amon Amarth’s album Twilight of the Thunder God is one of my recent favorites, although it’s more psyching-self-up-for-a-hard-task than positive, if that makes sense

    15. Chaordic One*

      Classical music for anything that require concentration and attention to detail. Jazz for things requiring creativity.

      Swing Out Sister (The Living Return) reminds me to be good to myself, like during a stressful day.

    16. Fortitude Jones*

      Anything Queen, but especially “Don’t Stop Me Now.” Their songs are so bombastic that you can’t help but pay attention, which in turn makes focusing on workplace drudgery much easier for me.

  42. Ann O'Nemity*

    I’d like to hear stories about hiring a replacement without the incumbent knowing about it. My boss suggested this option, but I can’t imagine it going over well.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I don’t like it, but I’ve seen it done where the person is hired in for something else with TPTB knowing that he is going to move into Role X in 6 mos. That gives the new hire time to learn the ropes and find a way to transition out the other person. I’ve also seen the role changed a little bit. . .like, if you’re the “teapot polishing manager” we’re also going to hire a “teapot buffing manager” at your same level. Your jobs will be similar, but different! Don’t worry! Then, the polishing manager gets transitioned to something else.

      I don’t think we’ve outright cut someone who was replaced, but they eventually move on.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        I think that’s what my boss had in mind – thinking it would be better to have some overlap for awhile instead of having an open position on an already lean team for a month or two. I just can’t imagine this not affecting morale in a bad way.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Yeah, it definitely kills morale. This just happened to one of our managers who had a staff of 3. One person transferred to support another division. The other two quit within a month. The only one left is the manager who is getting replaced. She is the highest paid so it makes sense that it might take her longer to move on.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      You may get away with it working one time, but then you bring this possibility into the workplace. Every time a new employee is hired, the team will wonder if they are the one being replaced- and your best employees will leave rather than waiting to find out.

    3. Liane*

      Alison has had 1 or 2 questions about why this is a bad idea, so try a site search. I believe one of them was about a boss who wanted to do this. A site search should find it pretty easy.

      1. Kowalski! Options!*

        Oof. Speaking from the incumbent’s POV…make sure you have ALL your legal boxes checked off before you do. This happened to me a number of years back and the company I worked for didn’t have the paper trail to prove that I hadn’t been doing my job up to standard – I’d never been given a bad performance review (my boss hadn’t even bothered to fill out and file the forms for the one performance review I’d had in the eighteen months I’d been there, let alone file them with HR!), I’d never been written up for anything, and the only thing that possibly could have been an out on the company’s behalf was that I’d talked to one of the HR reps once about whether I was a good fit for the position or not. The afternoon after I’d gotten back from holidays, the receptionist called up, said there was an envelope for my boss, so I picked it up, opened it (no markings of “personal and confidential” on it, or anything)…and it was a thank-you letter from the person who my boss interviewed while I was away on holidays. Long story short: nice little settlement, retraining, and I’m in much less Machiavellian line of work. Lesson learned, though.

        1. INeedANap*

          Wait, I don’t understand – how is what they did illegal and what was the settlement for? Or do you not work in a at-will state, maybe? I mean, it’s really clear how what they did was terrible! But I don’t understand how it was illegal.

          My understanding is that companies in an at-will state can legally fire you for whatever reason they want, no documentation necessary, as long as you’re not being fired for being a member of a protected class.

          1. Judy*

            Settlements come from lawsuits not penalties for a criminal trial. I’m assuming they got the settlement because the company had procedures for reviews and progressive discipline and didn’t follow them.

          2. Kowalski! Options!*

            This wasn’t in the States – this was in Toronto, Canada, a number of years ago. Long story short, I headed to HR, asked if there was something that someone had neglected to tell me somewhere along the line, and we mutually agreed that I would be quote-unquote laid off, with several months’ severance. (The owners of the company had deep pockets and weren’t shy about booting people out with a payoff if they wanted someone gone). It was hush money, basically, in the hopes that I wouldn’t call a lawyer or go to the provincial labo(u)r relations board, who would have taken an especially dim view of that kind of behaviour. Which, if I’d had my head about me when I realized what that letter was about, I would totally have done.

            1. Kowalski! Options!*

              One thing about the experience is that it made me a **much** bigger believer in asking questions during the interview process and being more proactive about reading between the lines in job interviews. Before that, I was the kind of interviewee who asked perfunctory questions to show that I had some interest in the company and job. After that experience, I got a lot better about asking probing questions of potential bosses, and turning down jobs where I thought the bosses weren’t being totally on the up-and-up, or the corporate culture wasn’t quite as rosy as the interviewers were making it out to be. (I wasn’t asking them, “Are you a psychopath, or anything?”, though I really wanted to!!)

              But like Man Behind the Curtain (below), karma did its bit. My boss was fired, sometimes quite publicly, from the three jobs after that. I think she only lasted about six months longer than I did, by which time I’d taken some training and gotten into a completely different line of work.

    4. Aphrodite*

      I don’t like it. Your other current employees will find out–if not at the time it happens surely later–and that will affect morale. Also, it is extremely likely your new hire will find out as well at some point, and that will not be good. The old employee may well trash your company, if not on Glassdoor or elsewhere online, then by the old-fashioned but effective word-of-mouth.

      In other words, honesty is your best policy. It may be unpleasant but at least it isn’t sneaky and underhanded.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Agree with the morale concerns. I’m leaning toward telling the incumbent that it’s not working and we’re going to start searching for a replacement. This employee is already on a PIP and not improving, so it shouldn’t be a big shocker. It somehow doesn’t feel as icky to let the incumbent know we’re doing it, even if we’re not firing them right away.

    5. Always Anon*

      I have one of the rare success stories where the factors lined up just right. The supervisor had the incumbent on a PIP and had gotten to the point where they were sure the PIP wouldn’t be successful but had to let the clock run out on the plan. In the meantime, the supervisor reached out to me quietly to discuss the possibility of me internally transferring to the role after the incumbent was gone.

      It was handled in such a way that the rest of the company just assumed that I wasn’t approached about the position until after the incumbent was gone. And I’m not sure that many people knew the incumbent was on a PIP – they just assumed it was a resignation.

      The fact that this was an internal transfer and that only a few trusted people were aware made this successful. If too many people had to be involved or an external job ad had to be posted, I can’t imagine it would have worked. Once more than two people (or any people with loose lips) know what’s going on, word often spreads like wildfire through a company.

    6. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      My first design job out of college, I was the incumbent. I’d already been there 3 years but was the junior designer. The new manager announced that they were going to hire someone for the second shift — there weren’t any second shift designers up to that point. A guy transferred in from another location and before he got there the manager indicated he was our new second shift guy and I was supposed to train him. I’d never had any performance issues and I was the only person in the department that knew how to use PageMaker, which one of our top clients required (this was way back before Indesign when RageMaker was a top competitor against QuarkXpress). The older designers were proficient in an obsolete CAD-like software that was being phased out and I was happy to help them too.

      Then new guy let it slip that he was hired to be first shift and had been told I was moving to the second shift. Um…. what? No. I tried to go to HR but they said they couldn’t do anything about it (I was young and thought they could and that my meeting would be at least be confidential). HR apparently went to the manager. The manager called a quick full department meeting to announce that new guy was taking the first shift ’cause he had a family blah blah blah, and I was going to be moved to second. I didn’t handle it professionally… I basically gave notice on the spot in front of everyone in the meeting effective the day that I was to start second shift, and stopped training new guy and others — who were equally as shocked. I didn’t sabotage any projects, but I also didn’t expend any energy to help the transition. My files are on the computer, no I’m not answering questions, good luck — k thanks bye.

      Please tell the incumbent they are being transitioned out. It was awful…for everyone…and there was no reason for it. It was a sign of a very petty, you’re-either-my-pet-or-my-enemy, dysfunctional manager.

      Lucky for me was that I got out before the company was bought out less than 9 months later, and then ultimately closed.

      1. Hrovitnir*

        WOW. I am seriously not a good judge of whether this but I kind of feel like your reaction was fair enough? Like, being professional where professional = pretending it’s OK and letting them ignore the fact it’s obviously not wasn’t really going to help you out here. Bah.

    7. NopeNopeNope*

      I was in a situation where my boss at the time was asked to hire a Senior Teapot Painter. He found someone everyone liked and she accepted the job offer. Then they told him that this woman that he thought would be on his team would actually be the new Teapot Painting Manager, and he would have a new position that was the Manager of Teapot glazing and kilns. He was not happy, but tried to make the best of it. A few months into this new arrangement, the new teapot painting manager was put in charge of him, and then he was really unhappy.

      Despite his efforts to find a new job, the PIP and firing caught up to him. A few months later, the new teapot painting manager decided the company was too toxic (true) and left, leaving two teapot painters to do all the painting work. One of them (moi) quit six weeks after that, at just about the time that the fired employee found a new job that makes him very happy now.

      So the moral of the story is, if the incumbent is so bad that you want to replace them, just figure out how to do the job temporarily without the incumbent, fire them, then hire their replacement. You might find that the incumbent was so incompetent that the work isn’t getting done anyway, OR that it’s come to the point that the work they’re doing isn’t really necessary after all.

      If you must do it, don’t have the replacement fire the incumbent. I felt like I was watching my parents divorce all over again.

    8. Chaordic One*

      I always remember that I was once interviewed at a coffee shop by a manager who was looking to replace someone on his team and he didn’t want them to know, hence the meeting out of the office. I didn’t get offered the position, but I was a bit desperate at the time and probably would have taken it if given the chance. It seemed like a decent enough job, but my spidey senses were tingling a bit.

  43. Bonky*

    I have just gone on maternity leave (I’ve another six weeks to go until the baby arrives, but I’m so sore, tired and preoccupied I was worried I wasn’t going to be able to work to my usual high standard. Fortunately I’m in a geography with very generous maternity leave, so I’ll also have some months with the baby.) I am so excited about the baby; we’ve been trying for years, and didn’t think we could have children at all. Right now, I really want to be focussed on the little one, and on being the best possible mother I can be.

    I am surprised to find myself very anxious about work. I’m one of the founders of my company and manage a large and pretty crucial department, as well as setting strategy and all that fun stuff. My colleagues and direct reports are great, but I find I absolutely *hate* not being able to keep an eye on things; I’m a good manager, I have a terrific team, but as with all well-functioning teams they need a lot of personalised attention and care. One person’s on a PIP – I don’t think she’ll be there when I return, because the very specific handling she needs to be supported in improving (which will cost the person managing more time than he has available, frankly) almost certainly won’t occur. I have visions of projects going awry because I’m not there to steer. There are new people in my group whom I’ve not been able to acculturate yet. My husband (another founder) works in a different part of the organisation, but comes home with reports of other senior execs doing things which I’d be pretty firm about stopping if I was there. (Example: there’s been a really derisory salary offer made to a contractor we want to take on permanently in an adjacent team; I feel like the person negotiating it didn’t have the full picture, and that we’re likely to lose the contractor altogether, which would have been much less likely if I’d been around.) I have high standards for my team. I worry the people filling in for me (who are great, and I don’t know why I feel like this) do not insist on people achieving at the same level.

    I love my job. The business is something I helped make, and I am so proud of it, and so proud of the work my team does. I spend so much time and energy making everything run smoothly, and making sure my reports have the best possible environment to work in. Not being there is making me amazingly uncomfortable.

    I know deep in my lizard-brain that everything will be OK, that things won’t fall apart, and that no single person is so crucial to the running of the business that my absence for a few months will cause any real disruption. And stressing about this is not good for me or the baby. Unfortunately, the human bits of my brain are refusing to get the memo. How the hell do I disengage and stop fretting about the damage I feel I’m causing by not being around, preferably before the baby arrives? (“Stop being a control freak” is not a valid answer.) :)

    1. Tex*

      Think of it as a test of the people and processes you have put in place. If people really step up and demonstrate that they can perform then when you get back you can leave that work to them and take the overall business to a higher level (new clients, expansion). They may even come up with some creative solutions you haven’t thought about. And if it makes you feel better, keep in mind that no mistake is unfixable.

    2. Tuckerman*

      You’re a huge part of this company. I think part of it is just accepting that things will go wrong while you’re out, or even just that things will happen differently than you prefer. Probably mostly small things. But it sounds like you’ve got competent staff and colleagues. It sounds like the best case scenario for being on leave. The place will probably not burn down while you’e out :-)
      Perhaps ask your husband to minimize talk about work at home.

    3. dawbs*

      There is something about late stages of pregnancy that makes a lot of people, for lack of a better way of saying this, freak the heck out.
      I’m not saying your stress is unreasonable –or that “just stop worrying” is going to work (don’t think of white bears! NO! Damn polar bears), but that the body and the hormones seem really predisposed to freak out and stress about things–and if you’re managing not to freak out about the impending baby, the brain just takes all that freak-out-ness and applies it to something else–like your job.
      Sometimes, knowing that’s it’s out of your control makes it easier to disconnect the stress.

      Not that you haven’t already considered this, but…do you have an EAP through work? I think it’d still apply on leave. Because talking about it w/ a pro might help a lot–it’s amazing how putting something into words to someone else (who knows how to ask good questions) can sometimes make the penny drop.
      (The last time I used my EAP they really helped me move on mentally from some stuff w/ my manager. ANd they were able to point me to local support groups. ANd I”m confident in the free-and confidental stuff. ANd I got like 6 weeks of sessions included, which was enough to get me through the panicky stages)

    4. Margaret*

      I’ve been back at work two months, after a three month maternity leave. I’ve had multiple people say they’re so glad I’m back (I hope also personally, but given in the context of having me available as a resource), and one person say a project (fortunately not time sensitive) basically fell apart without me there to contain and manage the overall knowledge of it.

      It felt nice to feel needed and essential, but you know what – that’s actually not a good thing, and it actually made me realize how poor my documentation is if that can happen. I’m making notes in the file for every little thing that happens now – there’s a balance sure, I might be veering slightly in the other direction now, but in our field you want someone else to be able to pick up the file and continue where you left off, as well as be able to look back years later and figure out what was done. We’re currently in our busy season, so I’m intently focusing on documentation, and I’m actually planning on bringing it up in my annual eval this summer as something I have/will be improving. Being out for three months really highlighted this as a weakness.

      That said, you being a founder is a different role than me (mid level manager, essentially), and I think as a higher up you also just have to accept that some things just wont’ get done while you’re out. But also consider that doing good for the company means no one should be quite irreplaceable.

      I also get the general worry about things happening. I was checking email at least once a day for the first few weeks, but that eventually petered out, and by the end I was looking maybe once a week (there was an auto reply, but just in case there was a question asked that I knew more about and could aid in efficiencies). Nothing totally fell through the cracks. Clients were understanding if another person didn’t do quite the job I could have done with having more experience/history with them, they knew it was temporary and I’d be back and do a better job for the next project.

  44. regina phalange*

    How do you all feel about someone with the word Lead in their title vs. Manager? I ask, because I make a lot of our team decisions as a lead that the manager either can’t or won’t make and so far no one has questioned or disagreed with me, but is that normal? I don’t manage people but the decisions I make are mostly tied to revenue related projects.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      That is kind of how our team leads work. They make decisions when the manager isn’t available and have the power to supervise their team during their shift. But team leads don’t make operational, financial or other high level decisions.

  45. Biff*

    I have a question about searching for a job — how many applications per week is ‘enough?’ Unemploymnet of course asks for two, and some weeks I’m hard-pressed to find two. I think I should aim for more if I can find them, but it takes it out of me to do it. I just recently found a cache of good jobs to apply for, and it seems feasible to customize my resume and cover letter for 3-5 job applications per week. But I read about people applying for 100 jobs in a single week!

    What’s realistic?

    1. SophieChotek*

      I don’t think 100 is very realistic…I mean, they can’t be customizing their letters/resume or spending much time really thinking about the job and their fit.

      In theory, quality over quantity is better.

      I mean, yeah, if you have extra time, go for that extra one, if it really does seem like a good fit, but your approach seems better to me. Not sure about a hard and fast rules of how many; just thinking about quality of your application and whether its the right fit for you. Otherwise you’re just wasting your time throwing out applications everywhere.

    2. katamia*

      In general, I think it depends on location and industry (and also possibly, depending on the industry, whether there’s a hiring season). So it’s hard to put a specific number on it.

      I have a hard time believing that most people who are applying to 100 jobs a week every week are really customizing their resumes/cover letters for every single job, though, and IME quality is more important than quantity–unless you really need another job one week to maintain your unemployment benefits, I’d focus on applying to jobs you genuinely want and making sure your applications for those are strong.

    3. Dang*

      During my job search I never really found more than 5 or so per week to apply for. I tried to do one per day.

      I never understood how anyone could even find 100 per week that were even remotely a fit! I think your time is best spent making fewer but higher quality applications to jobs you actually want (in a perfect world- I realize that when unemployed there’s more often than not an element of “must find something soon” and I definitely applied for plenty that I knew I wouldn’t be great for)

    4. Princess Carolyn*

      I would base it on the number of interesting job listings you find. Some weeks, it was a challenge for me to find even two job postings in my market that were even in my field, much less good potential fits. Other weeks, I’d fill out five applications in one day. It’s never worth your time to apply for a job you know you wouldn’t accept – especially if you’ve already fulfilled your 2 apps for the week.

      So, instead of setting a numerical goal for the week, I make it my goal to apply for an interesting job within 48 hours of discovering the posting.

    5. AndersonDarling*

      I’m thinking about the most in demand jobs in our area and they couldn’t be applying to 100 jobs a week. There aren’t that many nursing jobs, or even warehouse jobs. You could maybe send out 50 applications in one week, but then you would be back to waiting for more ads to pop up, which would only be maybe 10 a week.
      When I was unemployed and applying to any reasonable job, I sent out maybe 5 a week.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      100 apps in one week?
      A family member did this. It’s just papering the town that is all. It’s not real job hunting.

      Consider this: You know those annoying flyers you get in the mail, some are for a pizza place some are for satellite tv? These 100 apps are on a par with these annoying flyers. The companies don’t know if I like pizza or need satellite tv, they are just throwing flyers out there to see who responds.

    7. MsMaryMary*

      I did one a day when I was job searching (and I took Sunday off, since it is a day of rest). If I found something I was really excited about even after I’d hit my “quota,” I might apply for more than one. I figured it made up for the days when I just subbed a resume straight through LinkedIn for something that was a pretty long shot.

    8. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      For me, it depends on what’s available. Some weeks I’ve applied to 10 or so, and some weeks I’ve applied to one, if that.

    9. Elizabeth West*

      We have to do three a week here, and some weeks I’m hard-pressed to find three I know won’t be low-paid junk jobs, or are jobs I can actually do. I’ve stopped applying to those just to fill up the UI sheet because they sometimes do call me. :( If there are more, I apply to them as well.

    10. NopeNopeNope*

      Perhaps, instead of thinking about a quota, frame your search for a job as a full time job. Spend forty hours a week on it, take lunch breaks, keep to a fixed schedule, and relax on the weekends. At one point when I was searching, I was applying to five or ten a day, but I was entry-level at the time and a number game was all I had.

    11. Chaordic One*

      I’ve never been in a situation where there were anywhere near that many appropriate jobs to apply for in a single week. That said, if there were that many jobs available, I would focus on the 20 or so jobs that sounded like they were the best opportunities.

      When there are not that many jobs to apply for, I do customize my resume to focus on the things the opening asks for. If there are more than several jobs to apply for, I might just use 2 or 3 versions of the basic resume that focus on core skills that correspond to specific openings. Say, 3 versions that focus on general clerical, marketing or customer service. I would still do a customized cover letter for each job that I applied for.

  46. Um...*

    This is a fairly meaningless gripe so feel free to skip over it if you are flicking through the comments, but I am currently trying to apply for placement opportunities within my company and cover letters are the absolute worst. With some help from AAM and family members I got to proofread it I finally have something put together but the switch form my normal work writing is just weird. All the reports I produce are in passive voice “the teapots were inspected…it is anticipated that X standard will not apply….it was discovered’ which basically gives the impression that no human beings are involved at all and having to make the jump to “I am amazing! Look at all the great stuff I have done! Hire me please!” is just exhausting.

    1. Lady Julian*

      Oh my word, yes!! I’ve been applying to jobs off and on for about a year, trying to find a way forward out of my current job, and I hatehatehate cover letters. In fact, I’m always kind of glad when work kicks into high gear, so I get an excuse to stop it with the cover letters.

    2. many bells down*

      It’s so much more awkward to write a cover letter than anything else. You’re trying to sell yourself to a job before you even know if you actually want it!

      I just wrote one for an application, and I went back and forth on what to include. I have a large employment gap (~10 years) and I wonder if I should mention it in my cover letter. The thing is, both my kids have health issues so that gap was me being a SAHM and taking care of that. Which seems to personal to go into a cover letter, to me.

    3. Hrovitnir*

      Heh, not that meaningless. I hate every aspect of selling yourself for jobs, it makes me feel incredibly dishonest even though I’m confident I’m a competent and valuable employee. Cover letters are… extra weird. I can do it, but man it feels smarmy.

      1. Hrovitnir*

        Though to add – I’m glad cover letters are a thing, because it does give you an opportunity to show you can write well. I’m amazed how poorly so many people write. That’s kind of unfair I guess for those that struggle, but you’re working hard to produce quality work, you should feel proud!

    4. tigerStripes*

      My technique is to start with something very blunt, like “Please give me this job. I think it would be cool, and I’d be great at it.” and then modify it until it turns into a good cover letter.

  47. C Average*

    I have applied for my old job at my old company.

    I held the job for five years (2007 – 2012) and then took a promotion, which I almost immediately regretted. I stuck it out in a horrible job way horrible manager for three years and then left in 2015 to deal with some intense family drama (house fire, mental illness, cancer–seriously, it had the makings of a country song for a while). Since then, I’ve completed a first draft of a novel, done a bit of freelance writing, and worked a really enjoyable but low-paying retail gig.

    I was widely regarded as a rock star at Old Job and will likely at least get an interview on that basis. A good friend who is closely connected to the hiring manager has given me a strong recommendation.

    I am wondering how best to spin a) why I’d like to return to that job, b) why I left the company, and c) what I’ve been doing personally and professionally for the past two years.

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      Congrats on your manuscript!

      What you said here is perfectly reasonable. You want to return to your old job because you excelled at it. You left to deal with family issues that are now fixed. You spent the past two years completing the rough draft of a novel, picking up freelance gigs, and working retail to keep income coming in while dealing with your situation.

      Those are all perfectly reasonable answers that fall under the ‘life happens’ category. I’d honestly think it a red flag if someone found those answers unreasonable.

  48. Jan Levinson*

    How do you deal with a supervisor and coworkers who try to give you advice about your personal life? In particular, they are obsessed with telling me when I should have a baby.

    I am almost 24 years old, and have been married almost 2 years. My husband is in graduate school for another 15 months, but we would like to start a family soon after he graduates. Two of my coworkers and my supervisor did not have children until their mid 30s. They are constantly telling me how I “don’t want to start a family before 30” and how I’ll “regret it and miss out on having fun in my 20s.” I know myself and my husband better than any of them, and think that’s it’s none of their business to tell me when I should or shouldn’t have kids. I had plenty of fun in college, and feel financially and emotionally ready to have kids. The topic comes up at least a few times a week, and they will not stop harping on the idea that “it’s best to wait until at least 30.”

    How do I stop these comments without coming across as abrasive?

    1. Two Apple Pies*

      They are being jerks. Talk to them. I would have a short meeting with all of them and tell them that you know they are trying to be friendly, but it makes you uncomfortable when they talk about this. Tell them to stop. Be serious about it.

      It sounds like part of the problem is you’re bringing it up in the first place. Don’t bring it up. It’s not your fault they are jerks, so if you need to add a, “I know I was the one that brought it up, but I don’t want to talk about my personal life at work.” Then don’t talk about having babies anymore with them.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        I’m actually not generally the one to bring it up – I guess I didn’t make that super clear. It usually goes something like this:

        Coworker #1: My daughter was horrible yesterday, she did x, y and z.
        Coworker #2: I never have any free time any more with my kids
        Supervisor: I’d love to take a vacation, but it’s just too hard to do anything fun with kids
        One of them, to me: See, Jan, this is why you shouldn’t have kids until your at least X age.

        Obviously, at one time or another I brought up in conversation that I want kids within the next few years, but they seem to dwell on it. A meeting would probably be a good idea, thank you!

          1. LCL*

            Yeah, there is advice and advice. This is idle casual conversation and not worth having a meeting about. Now if they ask you when you will have kids, that’s a different kind of rude.

      2. AKJ*

        Seconding this, if you are the one bringing it up. If you’re not, I’ve found that saying non-committal things like “Well, we’ll see,” or “Maybe, I’m not sure what our plans will be,” can work, especially if you say it with a shrug and “whatever happens, happens” attitude.

        I used to love those kinds of discussions, a long time ago, so I probably got into a few I shouldn’t have. But after years of infertility I’ve learned to extract myself from those conversations. Now, if you really decide you want to be abrasive, I have a few responses for that as well.
        For contrast’s sake, I once listened to a younger co-worker go on and on about how she and her new husband were going to have two kids by her thirtieth birthday, otherwise she’d be “too old,” and how pathetic older mothers were, how selfish it was to wait, etc. At first I just said something like “That’s great, I hope it works out for you,” but when she wouldn’t stop, I finally got fed up and said “If everything had gone according to plan, I would have a second grader right now, but it didn’t. So if I get a chance to be a mother later in life, as long as it can be done safely, I’m going to do it and I really don’t care if you think I’m pathetic.”
        After ten years of these conversations I’ve gotten pretty good at deflecting them. But when people don’t take the hint I have no guilt about telling them the real reason I’m in my late thirties with no kids, and I don’t care if it makes them uncomfortable. Don’t ask if you don’t want to hear the truth.

    2. Karanda Baywood*

      “I’m glad that worked for you, but this is between me and Spouse. Have you seen the new Pixar film?”

    3. Morning Glory*

      This seems similar to this morning’s letter writer who didn’t want kids, and was being told she’d change her mind.

      My advice would be to not bring up the subject again until you are actually pregnant and need to tell your supervisor – it’s not her business before then. Next time they bring it up, something polite but firm about it being a personal decision in your private life would probably be worth a try.

    4. Biff*

      Ew. Gross.

      I’d suggest something like “That’s up to my husband and I, and it’s not up for discussion.” or “I don’t wish to discuss this at work.” or “You need to stop talking about this with me, it’s become inappropriate.”

    5. Lillian Styx*

      I appreciate your concern, but I don’t really wish to talk about my family planning in the office anymore.

    6. Manders*

      Oof, that’s such a jerky thing to do.

      I had kind of a similar situation with making wedding plans that coworkers were unexpectedly emotional about (not changing my name, no first dance, not being overly excited about my dress and hair and makeup) and I just started making a joke and deflecting when they brought it up. So:

      “I can teach you to dance!”
      “Haha, I have two left feet. So, how’s your underwater basket weaving class going?”

      “You should change your name!”
      “Maybe I’ll make him change his name. So, about those colorless green ideas…”

      It worked ok for me, but weddings aren’t a permanent state of being, and after it was over the comments stopped. It might be harder to deal with this if it’s ongoing for years.

    7. Electric Hedgehog*

      Stop, look ashen, start being teary, and with a quavery voice tell those busybodies that you and your husband just found out that you are going to be unable to have kids, ever, and its very traumatizing and hard, and you would appreciate never talking about it again.

      Doesn’t matter if it’s true -people have GOT to stop asking about people’s reproductive plans. It can be so unintentionally traumatic.

      1. AKJ*

        I always tell people the real reason, with varying levels of detail based on how pushy they are – because back when I was actively trying and going through treatments, etc. the question was genuinely (but unintentionally) traumatizing, and I spent lots of time in tears because of those types of questions.
        Now, it’s not quite as painful for me as it once was. But I do give an honest answer, and if that makes them uncomfortable, well – they shouldn’t have asked. Maybe they’ll know now how sensitive a subject it can be.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Not pregnancy related but still an example of someone asking a personal question, I answered it in a straightforward manner. Okay, it was TMI. This person took the hint, “I should not have said that, right?”
          I simply said, “It’s over, it’s fine. But, yeah, don’t ask other people that question.”

        2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Agreed. I’m in the ‘not technically infertile but might as well be’ camp, for a variety of medical reasons — whenever someone talks to me about having kids, that’s one of my 2 go-to strategies for deflecting the conversation. “Ooh, yeah, I’m definitely looking forward to that 80% chance of miscarriage! And how about the bonkers-high risk of eclampsia and gestational-turned-permanent diabetes!” I’m not broken up about it, because kids weren’t ever part of my life plan, but I can be very graphic in my presentation of Why Boochie Should Never Get Knocked Up.

    8. K.*

      I had a couple of coworkers who were really invested in my dating life (at the time I was single and actively NOT dating, for a bunch of reasons), and they were really invasive and annoying. They stopped mentioning it when I said “I prefer to keep my personal life out of the office, so please stop asking. Thanks.” Firm tone, neutral, no raised voice, eye contact. They stopped after that.

    9. dawbs*

      Ugh. (FWIW, when/if you are trying, these comments can move from annoying to REALLY annoying and/or hurtful. And if for any reason there are problems with trying, they tend to make one {ok, me} feel murderous.)

      While it’s still something you can approach w/ a little levity, that’s always an option.
      “Well, while I REALLY enjoy discussing how much unprotected sex I do or do not have in the middle of the office, I do play my uterus-cards closer to the vest”

      But the patented carolyn hax “wow” or Miss manners “why would you say that to me” followed by very awkward silence (remember, you didn’t make that awkward silence, they did. They can sit there in their wrongness and stew in that silence) can be poignant.
      And looking ashen and fleeing isn’t all bad. People need to learn to STFU about such things. (I only burst into tears about infertility and fled a discussion once…but people stopped being stupid. Or those particular people did-at least to me)

      1. Canadian Natasha*

        “While it’s still something you can approach w/ a little levity, that’s always an option.
        ‘Well, while I REALLY enjoy discussing how much unprotected sex I do or do not have in the middle of the office, …”

        First rule of duck club- don’t talk about duck club? ;)
        (Sorry but I humourously misread that part of your comment and had to share the giggles.)

    10. Lady Bug*

      As someone who had kids young (20), you can always go with “I am looking forward to having fun in my 40s when I can enjoy my “fun” money”. Which I definitely do. My kids in their 20s are jealous of all the fun stuff my husband and I do that we would never have been able to afford when we were 20.

  49. Hrovitnir*

    Ahh, I have a thing to post. I have an honours degree in biomedical science (NZ/Aus/UK thing – it functions like a mini Masters and with first class Honours I am eligible for a PhD). I’m currently overseas doing a short project to get a feel for the place and make contacts. I was thinking of finding a short term lab tech position for more/industry experience and some money, while I look at scholarships etc.

    WELL. The research institute I did part of my thesis research through has a job opening for a 2 year contract as a research officer that I meet the requirements for and is in my area of interest. The idea of applying makes me kind of nauseous (I haven’t had to do freaking job interviews forever). But it’s a pretty epic opportunity? O_O

    Also, because now I’m frantically looking up resources, what is with university careers advice?? Sorry, unnamed British university, even without reading AAM I would be skeptical of your ridiculous-sounding careers objective, I *know* employers don’t care about my exact marks in undergrad (??), and your “skills” section is way too wordy.

    Whyyy?

  50. aebhel*

    So, my boss is leaving and I’ve been offered the interim director’s position, with the implication that if I decide to apply for the permanent position I’ll have a good chance of getting it (library director positions are notoriously hard to fill, and I’d be a known quantity). I’m not sure if I actually want to, but I have until the end of April to get my application materials in, so I have plenty of time to think about it.

    Here’s my dilemma: the only other full-time librarian is retiring in September. I am currently expecting my second child, and am due in September. I haven’t told anyone that I’m pregnant yet; my first doctor’s appointment is next Monday. Even if I don’t decide to apply for the permanent position, there’s a chance that I’ll still be the interim director when all this rolls around, which would mean, best case, going out for 6-7 weeks with a brand new librarian on staff or, worst case, leaving the library with no director and no librarians for 6-7 weeks. My current director has strongly implied that my colleague is retiring due to health issues, but none of this has been made public (nobody else even knows that she’s retiring), so I don’t want to ask her to stick around for a month and a half.

    Does anybody have any insight on how to navigate this? It seems like it could be a really great opportunity for me, but the timing is terrible. Also, any ideas on how to tell the board (assuming my doctor’s appointment goes well) would be really appreciated.

    1. TR*

      If you will want the job after your maternity leave, I think you should go for it! It sounds like there’s not much benefit to not doing it – you could still be in the interm job. And, I would say to do it anyway. Timing doesn’t always work out perfectly. You have several months to work in the interim job and prepare things for your leave. I’d recommend being very straightforward with the board. More than likely, that part will be less dramatic than you fear. I know there are horror stories, but I believe in most cases, people are just happy for you and want to figure out how to make things work.

    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      Go for it!

      In the grand scheme of things, maternity leave is only going to cause a short-term issue. And you have months to plan for it. It shouldn’t disqualify you from being the best long-term option.

      I also recommend being straightforward with the board. Come up with a tentative coverage plan.

  51. Two Apple Pies*

    Can anyone recommend a projector that’s strong enough to be able to see text clearly, and be used with some light through the door?

    1. Um...*

      I’ve got an Optoma I don’t remember the model number of (got it on sale) but Wirecutter has a few good review articles

    2. Observer*

      Make sure you get a projector that is designed for room use. I’ve had good luck with Viewsonic.

      Whatever you buy, look for the right specs. You want something with a fair level of light (lumens) and the throw length (how far the projector is supposed to be from the screen) needs to be right. So you need to get something that matches the size of your room. And get something with decent resolution – preferably the same resolution as the laptop you’ll be connecting it to.

  52. Soon to be manager*

    I am being promoted to a manager position, to be announced very soon. It will be a new team with 3 people reporting to me, who I don’t get to choose – they will be finding out at the same time my role is announced that they are assigned to my team (we’re going through a re-org, so everyone knows changes are coming).

    Any tips for my first few weeks on the job? I’m an avid AAM reader and have always focused on management, motivation, and training, so I think I have the right mindset but want to make sure I get the tactical stuff right in the beginning.

    1. Beth*

      I recently went through a shift like this from the team member side. We set up a half hour meeting with me, my old manager, and my new manager to transition (this is pretty normal at my company, not sure about other places). It was a good opportunity to reflect on what style of management I prefer and what had worked well for me and my old manager in our relationship, and to have my new manager get all that information right off the bat. (It helped that my old manager and I had a really strong working relationship–we had plenty of “This worked really well, this is important to me, I really appreciate it when ___ does this” items to share!)

  53. Mimmy*

    I officially have a job!!!

    On Tuesday, I received a call offering me a start date on the job I’ve been waiting for the background checks to clear. I start on March 20! It is a temporary and likely part-time job, but the pay is good and it’s in my field, so I’m happy. I also heard through the grapevine that this could turn permanent.

    Now I’m just waiting on the official offer letter.

    YAY!!! Finally!!

      1. Mimmy*

        I’d like to thank you in particular, NSNR. Your replies to all of my rants in the past year or so have been very kind and thoughtful.

  54. Red Reader*

    We’ve been having trouble with my team not reading documentation that’s sent out to them, so yesterday at 915am, I sent a direction that included at the end, “Please reply to verify that you understand this direction.” By the end of the day I got replies from half of them.

    So this morning I sent it out again to the half that hadn’t replied, with a note added that per previous discussions, we expect that they will read (and respond to when appropriate) all communications from management staff in a timely fashion.

    Anyone who hasn’t replied by Monday morning will be getting a webex meeting invite (we’re a fully remote team) at which they can explain to us in person why they aren’t reading the emails from the management team.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      That is so, so frustrating.

      Is it possible the communications are overly wordy/too long though?

      1. Red Reader*

        They range in length – but most of them are 3-4 sentences or so, with possibly a screenshot or two of example if warranted.

        1. Chaordic One*

          These sound reasonable.

          In the past, with longer more complicated things I’ve good luck by breaking things down and numbering them.

    2. Feathers McGraw*

      Hmm. What are the rest of your emails like?

      This seems a bit of a PA way to handle it.

      1. Red Reader*

        We’ve been dealing with it for several months. A couple weeks ago I sent out a (half page) how-to on verifying the settings for one of our software packages, because some people didn’t have them set correctly. One of my staffers told me she didn’t understand the directions, could I set up a webex to walk her through it.

        In the webex, I asked her to go ahead and try the directions so I could identify where I could make them clearer. She had deleted my email unread. Our email software marks “read” after five seconds. She literally hadn’t looked at the email for five seconds before deleting it.

    3. Teapot librarian*

      I am glad to hear that I’m not the only manager who has trouble getting her employees to read emails.

      1. Red Reader*

        Super frustrating, that we have to try to figure out ways to get our adult team members to read the instructions we send them on how to do their jobs.

        To an extent we’ve let them get away with it for too long, but our manager is too nice, and I’m trying to manage up a bit to get her to crack down on it.

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          Yup, go ahead and crack down. It’s a bulleted list of instructions, ffs.

          I try to do emails in what I’ve learned is bluf-method; but, that was b/c I spent a lot of time between school papers and summer jobs doing reporting that stuck to the old “Lead Paragraph 5 W’s + H” rule.

          Seems like you’ve got a simple outline and people who just don’t read them. Reading work communication is part of their job. Period.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve had problems with managers who read their emails on their phones and don’t scroll to the bottom. Frustrating as all heck. The funny thing is that this has only been a problem with managers, staff read emails on their phones and will scroll to the end.

      1. tigerlily*

        My ED does this. I’m her admin and you have no idea how many emails she forwards to me saying “can you investigate this?” and I’ll read the email and realizes it’s just a simple email with basic info in it – no investigation necessary. Like…if she had just read two more sentences she would have the whole picture and wouldn’t have wasted the time forwarding me an email and asking me to look into it. So many times I have to reply to her emails saying “this just says Fergus is RSVPing to the event” or “salesforce says it’s updating tomorrow night.” It’s mind-boggling to me.

    5. Hrovitnir*

      Oh man, I had someone tell me today that she always “gets hassled” because she just reads the first line of emails and trashes them, so doesn’t know the content when people ask. I was like… why the hell don’t you read your emails?? (I did not say this as she’s a new postdoc and I’m just a visiting student. :P)

      1. Red Reader*

        Right? I get a lot of junk mail, but my boss and my boss’s boss get flagged in our email program as a different color and I read every word they send me because BOSS AND BOSS’S BOSS. Don’t ignore the people who ensure your continued employment and fill out your performance evaluations. :-P

        1. Hrovitnir*

          That seems like the bare minimum, seriously. O_O

          Also, I know giant threads with reply-alls are pretty crap, but getting looped in on projects is actually really helpful for building relationships I find. Being someone who knows what’s going on even when it doesn’t directly concern you is helpful on a few levels.

    6. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      I think having a meeting to discuss why they failed to respond to communications is appropriate, but I worry more about having all parties together for what seems like a public shaming. Unless I am misundering the meeting invite and it will be with just one person at a time.

      I work at a University with a special program and when our students do not meet deadlines or respond to communications, we have levels of responses. The first time we do a formal counseling session with them where they sign a document stating that they understand they failed a deadline and will need to improve their communication or they risk their position in the program. The students are directed to prepare a memo stating the reasons behind their failure to meet the deadline and the specific actions they will take to correct such behavior. The second incident and they will have to make a 2-3 minute presentation to program staff on the importance of timely communication. If they fail again, they are not recommended for continuance in the program. But we are specifically in a training environment. That is our job – to train these students to enter the workforce and NOT skip out on communication.

      I think it would be important to evaluate how your office handles communications. Is there too much? Is it efficient? Maybe look into military or BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front) communication styles.

      1. Red Reader*

        No no, definitely not all at once. One at a time for sure. The whole team was CC’d on the original email; the people who needed the follow-up this morning were BCC’d so they weren’t clued in to who else was getting it, and the meetings would be 1:1. (Of the eight who got the round 2 email this morning, one replied before the end of the day…)

        The communications we’re sending out are generally procedural, how to handle a new teapot assembly coming down the line (if you will) so they’re basically bullet-point lists? Step a, step b, step c. I’m just not sure how I can boil those down any more concisely.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      My number one question is do they have time to actually read their email?

      I have a job now that allows me about 15 hours a week. It’s pretty normal for me to receive emails with attachments that are sometimes hundreds of pages. Not only do I not read them most of my peers do not read them either.

      In a similar vein, at another job, we were handed 50 page booklets and never allowed the time out to read the booklet. This place had 100 employees, probably only a handful read the booklet and they did it on their own time at home.

      1. Red Reader*

        We send them one daily email with their work assignments (which several of them either don’t read or disregard to work on whatever they want instead) and otherwise, 2-3 how-tos a month, which are always less than two pages (including screenshots) for sure, and usually under half a page. I would think that’s not too much to ask?

        1. PollyQ*

          If they’re not doing their assigned work, I would focus on that first, rather than their communication issues (which may be all or part of the underlying issue). Bottom line–they’re not doing their jobs.

          1. Red Reader*

            I agree. Our actual manager, who is the one who has the authority to do disciplinary actions, is way too nice (a direct quote I heard today: “In seven years of supervising, I’ve never put anyone on any sort of corrective action” – I winced) and I’ve only just now gotten her to agree that “Oh well, maybe they’ll read the next email” isn’t going to do the trick anymore. So I’m taking my opportunities where I can get them. (I’m a team lead — supervisory capacity, but not hiring/firing capacity.)

            Her POV is on the work assignments is, they’re still working and they’re working on stuff that needs to get done, it’s just not the stuff she told them to work on. If she says paint the blue teapots and they paint the green teapots instead, when neither set of teapots actually has a higher priority or due date than the other, it’s “just” not following directions. Annoying, and not okay, but her blue teapot directive might have been arbitrary anyway. (It’s not necessarily that simple, but the analogy is a good start.)

            But if they ignore the “new directive from the contract agencies: each teapot should have four green flowers, no more and no less” emails we send out and paint three, five or orange flowers on them because that’s what seems right to them, then another team has to go in behind them and correct the teapot flowers, which screws with THAT team’s production metrics.

            1. Red Reader*

              “If it doesn’t matter whether they paint green or blue teapots, why make an assignment at all?”

              Answering the question before it’s asked, heh — we have a team of 20 and four, uh, patterns of teapots. We rotate them through the patterns in groups by assignment so we don’t have 15 people trying to stick their paintbrush all into the same paint can at the same time and so everyone gets a good variety of teapot painting experience. But people have pattern preferences, and some people have strong enough pattern preferences that they are by-god going to paint the stripey teapots even if we’ve told them that today we’d like them to be in the plaid teapot group and they can paint stripey teapots tomorrow.

  55. UnderpaidinSeattle*

    I’d really like advice or thoughts on how to bring something sensitive up in a salary negotiation. I’m up for a salary review in a week. I recently found out that a new hire, who is in a much more junior position, is paid quite a bit more than me. This definitely changes the position I feel like I’m negotiating from. As in…knowing what I know now I plan to ask for a sizable raise. Normally I would never bring up a colleague’s salary in a negotiation unless I felt it was a discrimination issue, but this person’s job is at a project manager level, mine is a program director. I’ve got 10 years more experience in our sector. It’s a really big difference in responsibility and scope. I helped design this program this person works on before handing it off to another director so I know exactly what’s involved in the work. That director is also much higher paid than me but I feel that’s justified. She’s got the experience and special skills to back up the difference. While there are a few factors that make a higher than typical coordinator salary reasonable for this PM and I don’t begrudge this person a good salary, there is no possible way it’s justified for them to be making more than me when you consider job description, experience, level of responsibility, or value to the organization.

    I’m not mad about it and not taking it personally, but it’s been very clarifying for me about the ways I feel I’m not being valued in my current position and if I don’t get what I need out of the negotiations, I plan to leave. There are other factors involved in that but this was really what helped me draw the line. So I feel like it wouldn’t be fair to my boss to start a negotiation without giving him this information so that he understands my position and how it relates to the size of raise I’m asking for. How do I bring this up?

    The program budget was shared by a colleague who also knows my salary because he writes grant applications for both of our programs. He’s no longer with the organization, but I also don’t want to throw him under the bus. I confirmed the budget with the program’s director, who is a friend so I know it’s correct. While I helped design the program, I moved on to another project before the budget was written and now I understand why my boss never shared it with me when it was finalized. Typically I would have been included in that when given a final copy of the proposal to review.

    1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      Are you with a public agency or a private company? I’m in California and as a public employee, you can look up not only my name and see my salary, but also my job position and compare with other people in this position. This may be a good “out” for explaining how you got your information.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Can the (former) grant writer or your friend offer some inroads that we cannot see here?

      Can you say you saw a copy of the grant app?

      1. UnderpaidinSeattle*

        My plan was just to say something like “I wanted to let you know that I saw the final budget for x program. I wasn’t seeking out the information about salaries but now that I’ve seen it, I feel strongly that I should be honest with you about how it’s impacting my approach to our salary negotiation.” Or something to that effect? It’s a bit of a risk for sure. There are very few situations where I’d negotiate my salary based on what someone else makes. But this one is just so glaring. I probably would have asked for 10% and instead I’m asking for 30% so it’s a big difference. And I’m not really willing to compromise very much. I expect to walk out making more than this other person or I don’t think I can stay.

        My friend who is the director of the other program was shocked when I told her what I made. She said she set the coordinator/PM budget and got no pushback from our mutual boss. She had no idea it was more than I made. It’s a better-funded program than mine for sure. I’m definitely paid under market, but this other position is definitely paid well over market. I’ve been with the org for a long time and at the time I was hired, we were much more grassroots and salaries across the board were way lower. My ED now makes probably twice what the ED back then made for example. My salary adjustments haven’t kept pace with the new hires at all.

  56. Cube Dweller*

    Opinions wanted please! I’m a baby boomer in a corporate world, which has some bearing on my remaining career span and question. I have X years remaining before retirement.

    Job 1: Fantastic benefits, lots of perks, high salary, BUT soul-sucking work that does not play to my strengths.

    Job 2: Solid benefits (but fewer than Job 1), fewer perks, lower salary, BUT work that I’m really good at in a more creative culture.

    Which would you choose?

    1. Two Apple Pies*

      Get a job that pays well AND you enjoy. What’s the hurry to rush into something you don’t love?

    2. Graciosa*

      I agree that finding the best of both worlds would be ideal – but I’m assuming you asked the question for a reason. It isn’t always easy or even possible to find a perfect job.

      If 2 pays enough to cover essentials (food, shelter, etc.), take 2.

      Work takes up too much of your life to spend it in misery. There is no amount of money that makes it worth it (assuming the alternative is not being unable to eat).

    3. Fiona the Lurker*

      I can tell you that my other half took early retirement from a Type 1 soul-sucking job, enjoyed a short break, and then took a Type 2 job with less stress and more individuality; he wishes he’d done it sooner, because although the money’s not brilliant he’s enjoying every minute. This is a quality of life issue; nobody at the end of their career ever says ‘I wish I’d spent longer at work’.

    4. Venus Supreme*

      I’d personally choose Job 2- I don’t think anything is worth a “soul-sucking” job that I’d inevitably dread going to 5 days a week.

    5. Cube Dweller*

      The trouble here is that I don’t really dread going to Job 1, which is my current job, because the perks/bennies make up for the crushing boredom — but I’m starting to wonder if I can stand it for X more years.

    6. Jan Levinson*

      If I had to choose, I’d choose #2.

      For me, having a job that I enjoy with a nice work/life balance (while still being able to live fairly comfortable) is always more desirable than a higher-paying, horrible job.

      I had great benefits and pay at my old job and was MISERABLE all the time. It was definitely “soul-sucking” as you put it. The benefits and pay were not enough for me to even consider staying longer than I had to.

    8. Electric Hedgehog*

      How’s your retirement fund looking? If it’s in bad shape, go for option 1 and put aside all excess salary.

      Otherwise, go for option 2 and enjoy a job that makes you happy.

        1. Electric Hedgehog*

          Then really, do a job that makes you happy. We earn money to fund our lives. If you’ve gotten that sufficiently covered, have a life that is worth funding. Be happy, fellow Cube Dweller. You deserve it.

    9. Hellanon*

      Job 2 – life really is too short to let your remaining career years suck it out of you. Besides, doing something you love & are good at frees you up mentally to make contributions in other areas, whether that’s your family, something creative, or volunteering.

    10. Hrovitnir*

      If you’re confident job 1 is “soul-sucking work” and you can live comfortably on the salary of 2, I 100% without reservation vote 2. Unless you think you can grind out a couple of years and save up and move on… and even then, I think you’d have to be really sure you can do work that drains you for literal years.

    11. Temperance*

      Which will be the better career booster? I’d do 1, personally, but I’m a Millenial and trying to climb that ladder.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I just heard of someone turning down $800k per year. Yes, 800k. The person did not like the region of the country, found it boring.

      Not all of our rewards come in our paycheck.
      If you think your soul sucking job is ruining your health then it’s a no brainer- you have to move. No point to retiring to a room in ICU.

      Picture yourself 85 years old, not too much going on in life because of age, limited income, etc. Which job would you rather look back on?

    13. JustFoundThisPlaceLastWeek*

      I am a fellow boomer who did 28 years with my last company, definitely corporate. Some soul sucking, some tremendously satisfying. Now I am retired. My perspective may be a bit different. Great work is wonderful, I’ve been there, but I have to ask…

      Consider how well you are set – or not set – financially, with retirement looming. Do you have pension, 401K, IRA, ROTH, savings, investments, assets, whatever? A surprising number of our generation will be pushing 90 and beyond before we are done, and that’s a long time to be living on a shoestring if you haven’t built a nest egg. A few years at a final job with “lots of perks, high salary” could make a difference for a long time, especially if they match savings as one of the perks.

    14. Woman of a Certain Age*

      I would be inclined to go with Job 2. If you know that you’re good at the work and the culture seems better, it sounds like you’ll be able to do a better job.

  57. Tin Woman*

    I really like my job. It gives me a lot of consistent work, so while a lot of other might get bored, I actually like having the same thing day in and day out. The problem is that I know that jobs don’t last forever, and I am worried that my very high level Word and Excel skills will get rusty since this job doesn’t really require it. Can I keep them up to par that hen they are needed again, I won’t feel like an idiot?

    1. JustFoundThisPlaceLastWeek*

      Imagine a place like this one, but rather than talking about bosses, employees, peers, and people issues, it is populated by people trying to master tools like Word and Excel so they can do their jobs. It must be out there somewhere, maybe several such places. Find it, and share your experience to keep it sharp. Who knows, you might even learn a trick or two from the other experts. When I was taking on a new technical software skill I headed on-line (so long ago it was on Compuserve!) and eventually ended up with a bit of an international reputation within that narrow specialty. Teaching and sharing are great practice!

  58. Nervous Accountant*

    1. Am I being unreasonable?
    2. If not how do I go about this?

    Situation—We got hit with a huge volume of work, all our clients submit their stuff seemingly at once, and since our company has a 24-hour turnaround time and are really stressing this on us, we’re all slammed. We’re usually required to work 55 hours but they told us they need all hands on deck and we have to work more than that. It’s barely Friday and I’ve already done 55 hours this week, and we have to do a full 8 hours over the weekend. I am NOT complaining, but just explaining how busy we are.

    We lost 5 people in 2 days, so a total of 8 or so since tax season started last month. I don’t care what their reasons are for leaving, but what pisses me off is that ALL of us are going to be affected and left to pick up the slack.

    Again let me stress–it’s tax season, high volume of work, extra hours, some turnover, it’s understandable. But this is way too much slack to pick up. A few of us were talking and someone said all of their salaries should be redistributed to us. It was said as a joke but honest to GOD WHY NOT? Our company’s budgeted for salaries, no? If so many people leave so quickly, isnt’ that extra money left?? Can’t they use that to give us a bonus after tax season? We usually get extra PTO days, but extra money on top of that would be a really great way to value your employees.

    There has to be a reasonable, professional way to bring this up that we ALL worked our butts off this season, more so than in the past.

    So, to my 2 questions at the start of this post–is it unreasonable to expect an additional bonus?

    1. Sibley*

      Honestly, that’s unrealistic management. It’s common knowledge that tax accountants are swamped during tax season, and if you want to make sure stuff gets done faster you need to get it in early. Otherwise, your return may be extended. (and I used to be you, though not anymore)

      Sounds like you may want to look for a different job. and yes, they should give you a bonus. If you don’t get one, get a new job.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Unrealistic on whose part? The client, myself & my coworkers or my upper mgmt?

        I mean don’t get me wrong–I understand this is the nature of tax season and this work and I’m not afraid of the volume of work. But it’s my 4th year here, and it wasn’t this crazy before, nor did so many people quit in such a short amount of time.
        I’m fully committed to bringing this up during my performance review but that won’t be until May and July.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Some of the staff is getting paid OT, but the rest of us are getting paid salary, and we get bonus PTO as a reward.

        1. Newby*

          It does sound reasonable to ask if bonuses are possible considering you need to put in much more time than usual to pick up the slack

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Alternately, could they use that money to bring in some temps and help decrease the demand on you and your colleagues?

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Idk, we have interns, it would take way too long to get brand new people up to speed.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Eight people are gone?!

      I would think about asking the boss what can be done for those who have stayed and taken up the slack for EIGHT flipping people.

      It sounds like beating you guys harder is not working out that well. (Imagine that.) I think I could perk up at the mention of a few grand, after tax income, of course.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        1 was fired, 2 were let go the day of giving in their notice, 1 walked out BEFORE his notice, 2 left yesterday, and 2 more are leaving next week.

        I’m trying hard not to be judgy, so this must be the 65 hour lack of sleep workweek talking but it must REALLY be nice to not give a hoot about a reference and burning bridges.

        1. Haru*

          Would you feel better thinking that you have the option to quit too and that its entirely your decision to stay. Why should your coworkers feels loyal when your firm let go of 4 people already? I’m an accountant and there were busy seasons where I worked 12 hours a day and I thought about leaving too.

        2. Haru*

          Sorry, I miscounted. If that many people decide to leave, then I’m not sure why your judging them instead of the poor planning made by the partners. Do you know if those people were leaving for another job or leaving because their work hours have changed?

          And I was trying to say that you shouldn’t feel you have to stay. It’ll be harder to find another job without a reference from your current employer, but you’ll still be able to find another job. Unless your outside of US, your employment is at will and if your firm can fire you at any time they want, you should feel free to do whatever is best for you.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            Sorry, I was a little frustrated and a bit emotional when I wrote that, I really truly don’t judge most of them for leaving.

            My frustration is aimed at our upper mgmt if they decide not to compensate us for this. Despite all this, I’ve never felt like quitting and I’ve no desire to leave.

  59. Here we go again*

    My office building has been ridiculously dry lately and my skin has been unbelievably itchy with rashes. It’s a fairly large office, around 300 people and the space is very open. Does anyone know of personal humidifiers that would work by my cube despite the size of the office?

    1. Abby*

      Amazon has some compact humidifiers available, but given the size of the room, I don’t know if they’ll be able to push enough moisture into the air before dissipating. Are you open to using lotion or cream? I’ve had great success with Vanicream, which has helped keep my scaly skin and eczema under control, but it’s pretty heavy and can have a sticky feel.

      1. Here we go again*

        I have been using lotions and creams and I just switched to one for eczema a couple days ago. (I don’t have a history of it, but my symptoms align with what Dr. Google says, so I think I may have developed it as an adult) I think it is helping a little, but not enough for me to get true relief. I will definitely look into the Vanicream. Thank you!

      2. Lady Julian*

        I second the Vanicream. I have hand eczema, and that’s the only cream that really helps. I use it religiously in the wintertime.

    2. BRR*

      I have a Bell+Howell one that uses water bottle. The big downside is that it requires a fan but I have a tiny vornado desk fan that I put behind it and use it to blow the mist directly in my face.

  60. Please email me*

    I have a new coworker, macey, who is really ruffling some feathers.

    We aren’t in the same department, but we work together. She calls for super minor things and talks for ages – I have work to do! Last week we spent 10 minutes talking about font size of a flyer – and I agreed with her! She didn’t need to sell it to me, but she did.

    She also repeats herself a lot, and has no respect that other people are working. She interrupted a coworkers, Miles, training to take over Kristas position (Krista was leaving in 2 days so it was time sensitive). Miles said – we’ll be with you in a moment, just finishing with this bit of whatever.

    Macey filed a complaint with HR and said Miles yelled at her. He had to make a formal apology and is now being moved (and has to train someone on the position he just learned). I know Miles, he doesn’t yell. And I agree macey is so rude and interrupts!

    How do you suggest dealing with her frequent interruptions without getting sent to HR? My desk may be moving closer to hers so it might get worse.

    1. Graciosa*

      I would go ask HR.

      If telling her to wait a moment is an issue, they need to provide guidance on how to deal with this in a way that is both effective (in stopping the behavior that interferes with your work) and considered acceptable in their bizarre little minds.

      1. Please email me*

        If it gets worse I might have to do that…

        Tricky thing is I don’t know if I’m supposed to know about Miles, ya know?

    2. Feathers McGraw*

      Is this really HR territory? I think you need to try setting boundaries first – have you tried to nip it in the bud?

      1. Please email me*

        I’m worried about nipping it in the bud, after Miles asked her to wait and got reprimanded. So far I’ve just been taking her calls, and wasting a bunch of time, but sometimes when things are more intense I just can’t do that.

      2. Graciosa*

        I wouldn’t normally suggest HR, but the fact that HR has – and do not underestimate how weird or bad this is – reprimanded the last person who tried to set boundaries changes the equation.

        HR is the limiting factor, so HR has an obligation to explain how to handle this situation without getting in trouble.

        1. Hrovitnir*

          Yes, Miles getting in trouble in this situation escalates it to “do something official” personally. That’s not on. I mean, probably try “OK, thanks Macey, I have to go now” followed by another thank you or similar and hanging up if (when) she doesn’t stop as well, but someone who will lie about something like that is ripe to be a huge problem for everyone.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Go to your boss.
      “We have situation X with Macey. We have tried A and B. It does not work she is still doing X. How do you think we should proceed?”

  61. Misophonic*

    Seeking advice and venting a bit with this:

    I have a somewhat mild case of misophonia– eating sounds set me on edge, particularly loud crunching and lip smacking. It’s usually not a big problem in a cafeteria or other noisy environment, but an otherwise dead-silent office, it drives me up the wall.

    I share a small office with another guy who ALWAYS brings a box of baby carrots and apples, which he eats at his desk. He is not a dainty eater. He also eats a cup of mixed nuts almost everyday. To make matters worse, he also breathes very loudly through his nose and talks to himself at normal speaking volume (sometimes louder). I’ve been tempted more than once to ask him to eat his snacks in the break room, but since this usually only lasts 10-15 minutes per day, I feel like I might be coming off as being picky. For the record, I also snack in the office, but usually do it when he’s out at a meeting or WFH.

    My current headphones alleviate things a little bit, but can still hear the crunching and gnashing. I’m hesitant to use noise-cancelling headphones because I don’t want to be totally isolated, but it’s getting to the point that the sound is causing some unnecessary stress. Anyone else dealing with this? Any coping strategies for misophonia in general?

    1. Venus Supreme*

      I HAVE MISOPHONIA TOO. MOUTH SOUNDS ARE THE WORST. I FEEL YOUR PAIN. I haven’t gone to the movie theatre in about 10 years because of this. I get panic attacks if I can’t escape. Ear plugs help when I want to go see a play/poetry reading and the old geezer behind me is smacking on a lozenge.

      I also worked in an office space where I shared a desk with a guy who would eat his fingers (and spit the nails on my side of the desk) then loudly chew three sticks of gum after lunch. My best recommendation to you is to time your 15-minute break when he eats his food, if you are able to leave your desk. I’m pretty good about not freaking out about speaking noises and breathing– would it help you if you told yourself, “I can’t ask him to stop breathing, that sounds silly!” My mom’s breathing makes a slight wheezing noise through her nose and I’m able to talk myself off the cliff when it becomes an issue. But for the food thing, luckily it doesn’t last forever (unlike gum chewing) so I think a long walk to the bathroom or the water fountain is your best bet.

      1. Abby*

        Yeah, I try to go out for a walk/refill my water bottle/check on something in lab when he starts eating, and that works most of the time. What sucks is when I’m deep into data analysis and then hear the plastic lid popping open– so I either have to stop what I’m doing to leave the office, or suffer through 10 minutes of crunching, both of which break my focus. It’s even worse on days when HE’S stressed, because he’ll snack on a cup of nuts throughout the day for a few seconds at a time.

        I often tell myself “Well, I like snacking in the office sometimes, so it wouldn’t be fair for me to ask him to leave to eat…” but sadly it only works temporarily, and then I’m back to thinking really negative thoughts about my co-worker’s eating habits instead of focusing on work.

      2. Hellanon*

        Gum chewing is the actual worst – I can’t even *watch* people who are chewing gum!

    2. Tuckerman*

      Can you leave while he eats? Do you have job responsibilities that can take you away from your desk a couple times a day? When I get antsy I go down and get the mail. Something like that might help.
      I wouldn’t ask him not to eat at his desk. Lots of people snack at their desks. Most people expect to be able to eat something quick at their desks while working. If the eating is so distressing that you can’t focus, it sounds like you might need to request an accommodation (solo working space, or the ability to use a different work space when you feel distressed). Good luck!

      1. Abby*

        I can, and I do, but it’s the frequency at which he eats that can be problematic. When he has a heavy workload, he will snack constantly. Just the sound of him rummaging around for his snacks is enough to trigger some feelings of anxiety.

        Really though, it’s a personal problem that I’m slowly trying to cope with (or at least accept the fact that chewing sounds annoy me, but I can’t avoid it all)– I just can’t help but commiserate with others about it on occasion.

    3. Hrovitnir*

      Oh maaaan. I don’t want to say I have misophonia, but I sure as hell am sensitive to eating (or licking – I’m talking about dogs licking themselves, FYI) sounds and it’s so frustrating. It’s saliva-y/smacking sounds that make me actually angry – I mostly deal with someone eating loudly near me by suddenly needing to listen to music loud enough through my headphones to drown it out. Sometimes if that’s not an option I just have to go to the bathroom and hide for a little bit.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Same here–I stay far away from those ASMR videos that do lip smacking, the mukbang eating videos, etc. I don’t mind if people are eating QUIETLY. Crunching an apple or fritos wouldn’t bother me either, but constant wet smacking would drive me up a wall. It just sound so groooooooosssss.

        Headphones headphones headphones.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Some people find those sounds relaxing–I don’t get it. I don’t want to listen to or watch people eat in an exaggerated fashion!

            I like weird triggers like tongue clicking, but wet mouth sounds just grosses me out to no end. There’s one ASMRtist I follow who does excellent clicking but when she throws in some smacking, I lunge for the mouse and fast forward past it.

        2. Hrovitnir*

          Right?? I listen to ASMR on the regular and am amazed that saliva-y eating sounds are… relaxing to some people. I have realised that low-level mouth sounds when talking (something that happens more in some accents) are desirable to me in ASMR, which is kinda weird given my issues, but… chewing on sweets by a microphone? *shudder*

          There’s something for everyone I guess. :D

      2. Abby*

        Uuugh yeah. I feel so unreasonably angry at people who chew with their mouths open/smack their lips. It’s infinitely worse in a quiet space like an office where it’s literally ALL YOU HEAR. In restaurants with a lot of background noise, it’s not so bad until I notice it, then I tend to fixate.

        Walking out and putting on headphones is how I’ve been coping, but there are times that it happens so frequently that it really cuts down on my productivity for the day (mainly because I have trouble going into deep focus with music on– I’ve considered getting noise-canceling headphones just to wear them without music playing). I can’t tell him to stop snacking, but I can’t keep getting up to get some water every 20 minutes for 5 minutes at a time, either :(

        1. Hrovitnir*

          Much sympathy. I once had a study group (so confined space) and someone I really like came in and started eating and the *anger* response was so excessive. I’m sitting there telling myself to breeeeathe and chill out while I sort an escape plan.

          I think noise-cancelling headphones could be worth the money. If you don’t want to shell out for good noise-cancelling headphones though you can get white/brown noise and use that for free (brown noise is a bit less “sharp” and I prefer it). It shouldn’t be distracting like music and you might be able to dial it down enough to drown him out without actually hearing it much.

    4. BRR*

      So I think you can ask him to stop the talking to himself. Maybe frame it as you can’t tell if he’s talking to you.

      For the rest, I understand how awful it has to be for you but I think asking to not snack at his desk is a little unreasonable. Besides headphones, what about a white noise machine?

      1. Abby*

        Oh, he’s apologized about talking to himself, so he’s aware that it can be an issue, but I don’t know if he’s making any additional effort beyond that. I’ve taken to just ignoring him most of the time unless he address me directly, but there are daily occasions where he will suddenly laugh or groan really loudly, then say “sorry,” but the damage is done :(

        Asking him to stop eating is a temptation, but I know better than to request it because I like snacking at my desk, too!

  62. KatieKate*

    Does anyone work for a non-profit where they actually make money? I’m 25 making $40k, which is fine for now, but I know in my specific field middle managers never breach $100k and have to dedicate 90% of their lives to the organization.

    I love what I do (program management) and I love doing good, but it would be super nice to make a little more money. Are there any career paths in the non profit world that pay a little more? Willing to do anything but development (I hate fundraising, even though I know that’s where the $$ is.)

    1. Venus Supreme*

      Haha, nonprofit fundraiser here! Hey, to each their own. I have a friend who works in management and just landed a job as a Managing Director. She makes extremely well for her age, and I think her MBA helps with it.

      I would check out some nonprofit’s 990s. They have to disclose how much their top-paid employees earned. I’ve noticed that performing arts venues make more than producing companies, with the top people (usually Executive Director, Director of Development, Managing Director) paid around $100k-$150k.

      1. KatieKate*

        It may be a culture thing–some of the fundraisers in my org aren’t allowed to cut their hair past their shoulders, and I have been scared off. Also it’s my least favorite part of my own work. But I know fundraisers who love it!

        I’ve been considering an MBA–would you say it helps over a non profit management MA? My only concern with an MBA is that I will never make up the cost because of salary.

        And good to know! I’ll do some research.

      2. harp+dash*

        I agree on checking out the 990’s… I live in a medium COL area, I would say, and most executive directors do not make 100k+ in this area. In my previous job, I was a second level director and made about 50k… this was a pretty high salary for a non-profit here.
        I also agree with the comment below in that non-profits tend to try and offer other good benefits because they can’t match private sector salaries. And raises have been basically non-existent throughout my career.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Sure. Different organizations, of different sizes, pay different amounts (and require/offer different levels of commitment/work-life balance/etc.).

      You’re more likely to see higher salaries in national-scale organizations, and in some cases, well-funded startups (think Teach for America, although it’s obviously well past its start-up phase).

      However (and maybe this is just my nonprofit-lifer perspective), $100,000 is a big salary (in my 400-person well-funded organization, there are maybe a dozen people who make that much). It may be that your expectations for the sector are out of whack.

      1. KatieKate*

        That’s fair–I think I’m suffering from a little private sector envy. A friend, four months into his job, just got a $10k bonus because he was part of the team. Not merit based.

        A reality check might be in my cards.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Yeah, it can be frustrating. My husband makes three times what I make. I’m a couple of years older than him, and I’ve been on a consistent career path since I left graduate school; he spent most of his 20s as a classical musician and got onto his career path (which also included graduate school) about a decade after I did.

          1. Venus Supreme*

            Very frustrating indeed. I’m 25 working in nonprofit and using my degree. My work/field has given me unique perks (i.e. attending high-profile awards shows) but I don’t have a high salary. Whereas a middle school friend is working in corporate world, making three times what I make, and just bought a house.

            I suppose it’s all based on what you value. I’d rather adopt another cat and continue getting free tickets to shows than birth a child and send it to private school right now, haha.

    3. Not Karen*

      Maybe not applicable to you, but I work in a STEM nonprofit as an analyst and make $74k with a MS, one level up from entry level (“entry level” meaning still requiring the MS, though). I’m 27.

    4. Not a Real Giraffe*

      One of my good friends works in email/web marketing for non-profits and was able to break the six-figure mark by her early 30s. She has a history of working in organizations with a broad national reach, and she’s based in DC, so those factors play a role too, I’m sure.

    6. UnderpaidinSeattle*

      One thing to consider with nonprofit work is that there are sometimes “perks” that are not monetary. Most of the orgs in my field have very flexible hours, really good benefits and vacation leave policies etc. At my current job we get Fridays off in the summer and the office is closed between Christmas and New Year. Lots of people are on flex schedules that can make a big difference in lifestyle.

      Low pay is pretty consistent in my area of practice but crazy work schedules are not. It’s really dependent on what part of the sector you are in and how well resourced the orgs are.

      If compensation is a priority for you though you might look into the foundation side of things. Program officers at large foundations tend to be very well compensated compared to programs staff on the 501c3 side.

      1. UnderpaidinSeattle*

        I meant to add that those jobs at foundations tend to be very competitive though. Even with many years of experience in my field, a bunch of published articles and being considered a “thought leader” in my area of practice, I’ve been told I’m likely not competitive as a candidate for foundation jobs without a graduate degree. And jobs open up rarely because people tend to stay in them forever. There is a lot of variation depending on what part of the sector you are talking about though of course. There is a lot of variety from what I’ve seen.

        1. Venus Supreme*

          That’s good to know! I was considering moving towards working at a foundation.

    7. Anxa*

      I’m going to be honest. My first reaction was to think that $100K was a very high salary. It looks like it would put you in the top quarter of households in the US.

      I am assuming, though, that there must be a lot of costs, like perhaps supporting a family on just that salary, living in a high COL area, maybe unpaid travel and outsourcing labor (I’m guessing there’s a lot of take out and other paid conveniences if you’re working 65+ hours a week.

      I don’t work in ‘non profits’ but I have worked in non-profits, and salaries that high weren’t for middle managers so much as presidents, directors, and a small minority of the organization. COL may be a factor, but this was true in both my rural city where rent for a 2BR was under 600 and where we pay $1300 for a 1BR

      2. UnderpaidinSeattle*

        100k would be the salary of a managing director at a midsized org or an Executive Director at a smaller org in my largish high cost of living city. Agreed. “middle manager” is not that relevant of an idea at the nonprofits I’ve worked at either. Program staff are on the lower end of the pay scale in my field. It’s where most people want to work and it attracts all the do-gooders who value mission over money. Staff working in communications, development, and more technical roles all make more money than program staff at my job.

      3. Hrovitnir*

        Heh, yeah, that was my reaction. I know it’s “not that much” in a lot of fields, and hell, my partner makes over $100K if you include stuff like the company vehicle, and we manage to live paycheck-to-paycheck with a tiny mortgage (I bring in a sweet nada and we have a *lot* of animals. We also probably spend too much on food – but don’t buy alcohol or cigarettes or go partying so I’m bemused how we manage that.) It’s just… I was a vet nurse, which maxes out at $50K if you’re lucky, an animal caregiver before that which is more like $40K, and now I’m going into research I’m highly unlikely to break $70-80K. Le sigh (my partner will be retirement age in 15 years and it would be nice for him to retire earlier so this is something that concerns me somewhat.)

        Anyway, don’t mind me, not contributing anything useful, just couldn’t resist replying to this comment.

    8. Temperance*

      Are you set on working in the nonprofit world? There are plenty of for-profits that are now running volunteer initiatives. Maybe something like that would be a good fit.

    9. Chaordic One*

      I can certainly understand your desire to make more, but you’re really doing very well for someone your age who works in a nonprofit. (This probably doesn’t help, does it?)

  63. Venus Supreme*

    I can’t believe this!! I left ToxicJob back in May. The person who took over my position was hired last June. I just found out he left ToxicJob last month!

    If I go by what their website says, then an old board member took this position- which shocks me because this has been advertised as an entry-level job, though I will argue the skills needed are NOT entry level since this is the only person in this department. Is is normal for an ex-board member to re-join the company as a Teapot Associate?!

    Including the newest hire last month, that means that there has been seven people in this position in the past four years. And the job isn’t designed this way– OldBoss had me sign an agreement when I started working there that I’d stay at a two-year minimum. HA. HA.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Wow…it’s always interesting to see what happens after you leave.
      Is the Manager of ToxicJob still there?

      1. Venus Supreme*

        Yup! ToxicJob is operated by three people/positions. The Executive Director is also the founder. He has a hearty case of Founder’s Syndrome. He is also a terrible person. He made comments about my eating habits/weight and when I called him out on it (“How does this impact my work for the company?”) he said, “Oh, sorry, my daughter is your age and I went into dad mode.” He also made fun of one of our interns because she was from Asia and he mocked her accent/name. I kept in communication with the girl who had the position before me and she experienced similar issues.

        I wonder if he’s happier now since this new associate will make the company run by entirely older white men.

        1. SophieChotek*

          I do find it odd an old Board member took the job, but maybe he’s doing it for fun. Anyway, it sounds like it is good you got out!

  64. Temp for Years*

    I’ve been at my temp job for almost a year now doing a lot of data entry, account verification research and some web based tasks. I’ve had only positive feedback when I ask. Recently an entry level position has opened up in Customer Service at our company and I want to apply for it. My problem is that I’m having trouble coming up with a script to ask my boss if I can apply. I know I need to ask because I don’t want to go behind his back. Any advice on how to phrase this?

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      I don’t think it’s going behind your boss’s back if you were to apply for the position first and then tell him about it, but since that’s not what you asked, maybe this could help:

      “Hi George. I’ve really enjoyed working here so far and the variety of tasks I’ve had the chance to learn, but I’m looking for a more permanent place at this company and I’m interested in trying to expand my skillset. I happened to see the Chocolate Teapots Service Coordinator role advertised, and wanted to know if you had any thoughts about my candidacy for the role or insights into how I might move forward in other ways.” Depending on your relationship, you could add: “I really value your opinion, which is why I’m asking in advance of submitting an application”

        1. Pineapple Incident*

          It makes sense, and can be hard to know how to navigate the idea of moving out of your current scope of work. I was in your shoes a couple of years ago, and turned out my bosses found out about my interest in the job before I shared it with them, which wasn’t what I wanted but it turned out they were fine with it/congratulatory. Good luck pursuing the job!

    2. JustFoundThisPlaceLastWeek*

      I wonder about the idea of asking. Be up front about informing your boss, sure. Ask for his assistance, or opinion, certainly. But in my mind being a temp means the company has declined to commit to you, even though you have been there a good while. You may even find that you have a good boss, one who cares about his people and is ready to help.

  65. RavensandOwls*

    I GOT A JOB!!!

    It’s in a super cute area, the staff is very friendly, the benefits are very good, and there’s room for growth and promotion. I also can’t complain about the compensation!

      1. RavensandOwls*

        That is EXACTLY how I feel. I got nothing on my job search until about a month before, and then suddenly a ton of interviews! I also nailed down an apartment within both my spouse’s and my commute range limit, and seem to have found my kiddo a preschool!

        So, celebratory wine tonight. And then packing ALL the boxes.

  66. Time Wasters Anonymous*

    I work for a large nonprofit organization with many departments, and my job involves attending a lot of meetings as an “ambassador” for our department. At our organization, we have a culture of meetings being unproductive and going 15-45 minutes past their scheduled ending times. I spend about 10 percent of my 35 hours per week in meetings that are often irrelevant to me, and it’s causing issues with keeping up with work that I legitimately need to complete. I have complained to my superiors about meetings being unstructured and an unproductive use of my time, but to no avail; it’s an institutional problem that’s not going to go away.

    So I’ve started taking it upon myself to just leave the meetings at the exact scheduled ending time of the meeting (sometimes 5-7 minutes after, but usually right when it’s supposed to end). I say “I’m sorry, but I need to go” and excuse myself.

    I don’t think this is going to get me in any trouble with my bosses, so that’s not the issue here. My two questions are:
    (1) Do you guys think that being the person who constantly leaves meetings early (actually on time) going to give me a bad reputation?
    (2) Am I wrong to be peeved about meetings that constantly run late, seldom stick to the agenda, and never have action points for the next meeting? Also, I get really annoyed when these meetings are scheduled on Friday afternoons at 3 or 4 pm. Am I off base?

    1. Graciosa*

      If your bosses are fine, go ahead and leave. You might get a reputation as a person whose time is in demand and who therefore cannot be imposed upon – how is that bad?

      You’re not off base or wrong to be peeved – but the better alternative is to take the action you’ve described and *not* be peeved.

      Say “I’m sorry, but I need to go,” cheerfully and without guilt or anger.

      1. Time Wasters Anonymous*

        Thank you. I try not to be peeved — but I feel like the culture of meetings constantly running overtime is disrespectful of everyone’s time. I will try to take a deep breath and just keep doing what I’m doing. :-)

    2. Newby*

      I’ve been in many meetings where people need to leave it if goes overtime. If it is an important meeting and you know that you can’t stay late, try telling whoever is running it that you can’t stay late because (insert reason here ex: I need to finish XYZ project and the deadline is coming up) and will need to excuse yourself at (insert time meeting is scheduled to end). That way they will hopefully try to make sure to get to anything they need you for before you leave.

      1. UnderpaidinSeattle*

        Yeah it’s totally reasonable to expect meetings to stay somewhat on schedule. I would just start off saying that the meeting is scheduled until 3 and you just wanted to mention that you have to leave right at three. If there is an opening 10 minutes before your hard out, just say “just a reminder I need to leave at 3. Then ask the person running the meeting “Is there anything else on your agenda that you would like me to weigh in on?” If you do it consistently enough other people might catch on and you could have an effect on the culture of agendaless meetings too. That used to be the norm in my office and one of our newer directors was clearly being driven crazy by it and she’s really changed things for the better in that respect just by nudging people along to stick to agendas, and by setting a good example for how to do it well when it’s her turn to run meetings. She’s been tough to work with in other ways but I’m forever grateful to her for that one!

    3. BRR*

      My organization is similar. So to 1, no as long as you say something like you have something right after this and have a hard stop time of 2:00. Don’t just get up and leave (although I wish that was possible).

      2, you are not wrong. This is so incredibly frustrating it has probably taken years off my life. Every meeting gets rescheduled (often last minute thereby wrecking my schedule), starts late, runs long, and has no agenda. Nobody prepares for them. When I can, I push back. I also heavily praise any meeting that stays on topic and make comments when meetings end on time.

      And while I strongly don’t like Friday afternoon meetings, that’s not the hill I’m going to die on.

      1. BRR*

        I also use the phrase “That sounds like something that will take a long time to hammer out and we won’t be able to finish our agenda if we talk about it now. Can there be another meeting just for X?” That only works if I don’t need to be there for it though.

  67. Mimmy*

    Now for a question – what do you do when you are getting conflicting guidelines for a writing project?

    In addition to the new job I just posted about, I am still doing the writing project I started last month, and I’ve gotten conflicting guidelines on what’s expected of me. Lucinda wants me to write more about the “personal side” and not worry about being so technical whereas Fergus says it’s better to be overly technical, which can then be watered down if need be. Fergus looked at my draft on Monday and said I wasn’t far off the mark, which was reassuring.

    Fergus said I could send my submissions to both him and Lucinda, but I need some advice in navigating the “he said x, she said y” dance.

    For some context:
    -Fergus is two steps above Lucinda in authority; he told me that he has the final say in how he wants the product (a handbook) to look.
    -Lucinda has not been very responsive, though I’ll admit it could be an issue with my email (though I’ve had no problems in getting emails from Fergus and Wakeen, the other person overseeing the project, both of whom are in the same division)
    -On Monday, I was to meet with Lucinda and possibly Fergus. I arrived only to learn that Lucinda had left for the day, purportedly due to a family emergency. I’m glad Fergus took the time to work with me – due to reliance on public transportation, it’s difficult for me to just up and go to the office (I work on this mostly from home). I requested this meeting and really wish someone would’ve contacted me, even on my cell phone, that Lucinda had left early.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I think that this is a contracted position?
      You might consider saying that you will talk to one person from the company regarding your work. They can talk among themselves and then have one designated person interact with you.

      You might consider doing all communication by email, where if you do not receive an answer you will proceed as you have been. Here, you could point out that many changes mean lots of delays and you don’t want their project delayed.

    2. Feathers McGraw*

      So hindsight is a fine thing but you can learn a lot from this to take into your next project.

      Firstly, you shouldn’t be writing a single word until all decision makers / stakeholders have signed off on a brief. Sure, in an ideal world it wouldn’t be necessary but this project is a perfect illustration of why it is. It’s like building a house without anyone agreeing on what rooms it’s going to have.

      Secondly, you should really be putting details in writing, in that brief, of who the decision makers are and how you’re going to prioritise their feedback. Ideally you want one named point of final contact but whether that’s possible or not you need to pin down who needs to sign off. And then YOU need to manage that process. Set dates / checkpoints to sign off on different things like the basic contents and structure, style and tone of voice, etc. Ask for brand guidelines if they exist. You really need to iron this all out, in writing, before you start work.

      It’s never a good idea to start work on the solution until everyone has agreed on what the problem is, what the exact case is for the solution, and how this specific solution is going to solve the problem. Part of the job is asking what they want and why they think they want it.

      Obviously it’s a bit late now, but do keep this in mind for the future. If you don’t have a clear brief and details of the decision makers, you’re just shooting in the dark. Being a writer in this kind of scenario also requires you to project manage. You need to make it easy for them rather than hoping they’ll make it easy for you.

      Sorry if that all sounded bossy, but you can learn a lot from this. It’s best to do the groundwork so you don’t put yourself in a position where you can be given conflicting instructions with no clue about how to prioritise them.

      As to this project, I would be insisting everyone who needs to sign off on the final thing agrees on the style, content and decision making process before going any further with the work.

      1. Mimmy*

        That you Feathers McGraw and Not So New Reader.

        Just to clarify:

        -Yes, this is a contracted position. It’s a little hard to explain. I am not an independent contractor. Fergus knew that I’d been looking for a job, and he contacted me requesting that I take on this project (I’ve known him for several years and he is in my field).

        – This is a state government agency.

        NSNR – You make a good point that I should probably stick with one point of contact. Ideally it should be Lucinda since she’s the manager of the program for which I’m writing this handbook, but as I mentioned, communication hasn’t been great, though she does seem nice.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Speaking as someone who has been burned on this point: “nice” is not what we should be primarily focused on.
          She does not answer you. This is a huge problem. Chose someone else. Look for additional attributes beyond “nice”.

  68. Myrin*

    Regular commenter MK touched on a topic earlier this week that I found really interesting and thought I’d bring up here now; she said that she thinks that, barring positions like sales where it’s actually relevant, being charismatic is very overrated. I’ve been told numerous times that I’m quite charming and likeable just from the way I speak and present myself but I’ve never thought about how I react to other people’s “charismatic aura” and I’d love to hear what others think!

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I think it can be overrated by some hiring managers, but I don’t think we should underestimate the power of having a strong team. I like all of my coworkers and regularly talk about non-work stuff with them, so when one of us has an unusual, difficult request of the other, nobody gets their back up and goes to a supervisor to see if that’s the best use of our time. If I really think that they’re asking for something that’s a waste of time, I’ll try to sell them on my solution or take, but because I like them it’s easier for me to accept a refusal of my suggestions.

      In that way, charisma could be valuable, in that a lack of it often means less than optimal social skills, which can lead to suboptimal communication.

    2. Electric Hedgehog*

      Eh, I think many positions have a ‘selling’ aspect, such as working to obtain buy-in from other departments, pushing your ideas and getting support, etc. Charisma certainly helps.

    3. Triangle Pose*

      Yeah I read that post earlier and disagree with MK. I think charm and charisma are really valuable skills in the working world. I’m not in a sales role at all but I work on a day-to-day basis advising senior and C-suite executives of my company. I know that bad news or news they don’t want to hear from me comes across much better because I know how to give that news and I’m generally a charismatic and charming person and these senior folks have experienced that when interacting with me. I definitely think it helps in interviews as well, both from a candidate side and on the hiring side. When I hire, many candidates have the skills and experience I want and can do the job, but I think to myself, is this someone I can put in front of the field and middle management and executives and do I have confidence she won’t be eaten alive and will know when to use her personality to get good business results?

      I see charm and charisma as just another quality under a broader umbrella of being an effective advocate (for my business, my clients, my work objectives, whatever).

      I think many people get stuck on this concept that “If I’m good at doing my work, that’s all that should matter, period.” But then their perspective of “my work” is really limited to concrete outputs or written deliverables, turn-around time, metrics etc. I think of “my work” much more broadly and part of being successful at my work includes getting along with coworkers, effectively communicating on outside of work topics with my boss, using my personality to make sure business objectives are being met and yes that means using charm and charisma to advocate for my perspective and to soften people who might otherwise not be as inclined to do what needs to be done, cooperate with my department, buy-in to the new strategy roll-out, etc.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I’m not sure about charisma, but being personable definitely helps in any position where you need to talk to co-workers, especially cross departmentally.
      I can’t help imagining rolling a D12 to find out if I can get enough of a charisma bonus to be a car salesman.

    5. Lily in NYC*

      I think it depends! I am 100% positive I got a promotion at one job solely because of my personality. But that was in an industry where charisma is a selling point. But now that I work with people who all come from management consulting backgrounds, my personality is more of a hindrance than a help. I have to stifle myself quite a bit in order to fit in with my current coworkers, who are all very intense and critical (I get along with them fine; it’s just not a natural fit for me).

    6. Undine*

      Being pleasant, responsive, and easy to approach can be very valuable. But charm and charisma can be used by people in lieu of actual work or productivity. Not everyone who is charming is manipulative, but charm helps manipulation go a lot further. And I bet if there’s a project and Prince Charming and Prince Clumsy do equal amounts of work, Charming gets more credit. And Charming ends up earning more money and getting more interesting projects.

    7. Hrovitnir*

      Heh. “Charisma” can have somewhat different connotations but taken as just meaning “likeable”, I think it’s literally always an asset if you work with other people at all. I actually feel kind of depressed by how closed pretty much all careers are to people who really struggle at this (I always think of the guy I did a presentation with who was obviously passionate but had a speech impediment and I could barely coax him to talk in our meetings, he mumbled his way through the presentation. Being told over and over again that your ability to present well and sell your research is overwhelmingly important seems cruel for people like him – even if it’s true. Why can’t we just let some people hide in the lab, so long as they’re not actually being jerks? *sigh*)

      But aaaanyway yeah. Provided charismatic =/ hard sales overly “charming” I think it’s either important or at least useful in almost all jobs.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      People who are likable make out better than those who are not likable. We see it here all the time.

      To me, charisma is a flash in the pan. It’s like finding out that your serving tray is not made out of silver, instead it’s made out of chrome. There’s not a lot of substance going on sometimes.

      I remember working on a team with a guy for my capstone course. The guy was an average student, like me. But he had OUTSTANDING people skills. That will carry him farther than being an average student. He did not draw a ton of people to himself, he impressed the crap out of the people already there and working with him.

      It’s nice to draw people, but what do we do with them once we have pulled them in? There has to be more going on than “charismatic aura”.

      1. Hrovitnir*

        Yes, I think this is very dependent on definitions, and what you’ve described here is definitely how I think about “charisma” vs likeability. This kind of charisma is useful in itself for things like presenting, but deeper people skills will probably take you further unless you’re otherwise exceptional.

  69. Feathers McGraw*

    Had my end of probation review this week (am in UK and this isn’t tied to pay). Wasn’t a self-assessment, just feedback from my manager.

    She gave me the highest possible rating for EVERYTHING. I’m very pleased!

  70. ThursdaysGeek*

    I worked with a co-worker and last fall he was let go; I don’t know why. I just got a LinkedIn request from him, so I went and looked at his page. And his most current job, the one I am still at, is not listed. He’s apparently been a consultant since 2009. A job and company where he worked for 5-6 years is not even listed. What are the advantages or disadvantages of connecting?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I worked at a company that was so toxic that I didn’t want to list it on my linkedin. I didn’t want to attract attention from past employees who worked there.

    2. Undine*

      Don’t connect unless you want to. Some people just spam all their former coworkers. It sounds like you didn’t know him well.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        I worked with him closely – we were the only two in our department at this location, and he taught me a lot about this job. My bosses are in another state, so we have a lot of autonomy, but also relied on each other. And the job is not toxic at all (replying to AndersonDarling).

        It looks like he is hiding he was fired (I’m pretty sure he was fired, but I have no idea why) by pretending the job never existed. Will connecting reflect badly on me in any way?

  71. Arya*

    Hi all. I just got a new job. Signed the contract today. I’m excited about the new opportunity, but I will miss my current colleagues. Also my boss will lose another team member in a short amount of time. Any advice on how to tell him on monday? Just short and direct and hope for the best?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I give my bosses a typed letter:

      Dear Boss,

      Tuesday, January 1, 2017 will be my last day. This letter is to tell let relevant parties know that I will be leaving this company.
      Thank you for all the opportunities you have given me.

      Signature

      They read the letter in front of me and it’s a done thing. Less words is better.

  72. Bigglesworth*

    I’m visiting my first out of state law school this weekend and would really appreciate any good thoughts, well-wishes, and prayers for safe travels this weekend. I’m headed to George Mason Law and they’re flying me out and offering me a pretty nice sized scholarship. :D

    3. Lily in NYC*

      Congrats – but I would definitely find out if they grade on a curve and if you will lose your scholarship if you don’t have a certain GPA. I do know that they teach using the Socratic method.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Hey Lily in NYC! At this point, all of the law schools I’ve talked to grade on a curve (usually the curve is around the B to B+ range). GM Law’s only condition on my scholarship is that I maintain good academic standing, which means a 2.0 or higher according to the ABA (if I understand I correctly).

        DU Law has also given me a great scholarship, but they have a higher GPA requirement/condition with their scholarship. Several students at DU lose their scholarships every year due to that fact.

        Although I would like to think that I’ll be at the top of my class, I know that realistically I’ll be somewhere in the middle of the range and need scholarships that won’t go away if I’m not in the top 10% of my class.

  73. Dainty Lady*

    I’m in charge of two departments that used to be entirely separate, but since their functions are related, they were put under my management together.

    Therefore, we have two administrative assistants. They are at different levels, A (higher) and B. The A role can do the work of the B role if time permits, but B definitely cannot do the work of A.

    For quite a while (years), Role A was in flux, with medical leaves, part time fill ins, etc. Now, we have a full-time permanent person in the A role who is outstanding. The Role B person struggles, always has, loooong before I came on the scene. Correctness and followthrough are particular problems. People have learned to work around Person B (just this minute looking back in my emails I came across a request that someone had for Person B; I checked and it wasn’t done, so I took the — literally — 30 seconds to do it because that took less time than reminding Person B and re-checking later).

    There is not enough work. Person A has already caught up with everything and is looking for more. Person B is at loose ends. If we created more projects to add more work, that’s more for me and the other department personnel to do, and we are full up. I’m pondering asking my boss if she has things that could use a boost, but feeling a bit reluctant because I know Person B will not do a good job and I need Person A fully serving our departments.

    For the long term, we do not need two admins — but we DO need A’s position more than B’s position. I’m also pondering asking my boss to see if Person B can be reassigned somewhere else within the organization, but again reluctant to pass on a problem.

    It is *highly* unlikely that the organization would let Person B go. We’re unionized, extremely risk-averse, he performs to a minimally tolerable level, he’s in a protected class (although I realize this shouldn’t protect people from poor performance issues, in our org there’s a history of that), and he’s very warm and kind. And, I do not have hiring and firing authority.

    Any advice the wonderful commentariat has about handling this situation productively and positively would be wonderful.

    1. LQ*

      What kinds of tasks does he perform well at (B)? It might be that there could be a different position that he could be productive and skilled at that would be a better fit. Is there anyway if it’s a union thing that he could work out of class in a few other areas to test it out?

    2. UnderpaidinSeattle*

      Would it be possible to promote A so B reports to her? If A has been really strong in that roll, she might be the best person to guide B in making imporvements and it her lower level tasks were delegated to B, it might free her up to take on some higher level work. B might do better with the very clear instructions and very close supervision that A may be in a better position to provide than you?

  74. Gail Davidson-Durst*

    Hi all! Question about using “inside information” in salary and promotion discussions.

    In my role I work with my department’s HR and finance information, so I happen to know exactly what the salary ranges are, the midpoints used to forecast headcount budget, etc. I also know that I was forecast for promotion this year.

    In general I try to respect confidentiality and don’t go snooping into other people’s salaries, reviews, and so forth. But I don’t think my management expects me to magically unsee general information that crosses my desk.

    I have a really good relationship with my boss and grandboss, but they sometimes get stuck with corporate policies and procedures that work against my interests. I’m wondering how much I should use my knowledge to negotiate around those sticking points?

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      The only bit that is usable is any salary information for the role you are in/applying for, and only in the sense of general market value for the role. For example, you were thinking of asking for $Y but know that the company’s range actually includes $X, you have the added benefit of knowing $X is in the realm of possibility.

      What you cannot do is argue for a salary based on what the company has budgeted or is paying other people/positions: “I deserve $X because the company paid the previous person in this role $X/has the budget to pay $X.”

      You can only make your argument based on your personal work/experience/assets: “I deserve $X because I’ve increased teapot polishing efficiency by 7% and introduced a new glaze additive that reduces cracking by 15%.”

    2. BRR*

      I’m curious what other readers woudl think of this but what about sort of treating it like a normal raise request but just acknowledge that you know policy. “I accomplished a, b, and c and was hoping we could discuss my salary. I think what I’ve done is in line with how we usually do $X or %.

  75. MegaMoose, Esq*

    Networking Update! Last Friday I mentioned I was having coffee early this week with a former classmate. It went really well – he was really nice and gave me a ton of names to talk to and some great encouragement about potentially finding work in his field. It’s going to take a lot more coffees, though. *gulp.* We had some classes together and graduation wasn’t all that long ago, so I feel like that helped because we weren’t just strangers who shared an alma matter. Before I get to his list of names I want to talk to a couple of other classmates who are also working in this area of law. It still feels really awkward but I think if I can just keep the momentum going I might be okay.

    1. LawCat*

      Sounds like it went great! Momentum is a great thing. I think most people enjoy reconnecting with classmates and catching up. And also happy to make new connections and share information. :-)

      1. MegaMoose, Esq*

        I’ve really enjoyed reconnecting with classmates when it happens, I just don’t like the lead-up part where I’m terrified it’ll be super awkward, especially the part where I have to explain my pathetic lack of having found a real job yet and they’re going to realize I’m just using them and am a horrible person or whatever. Somehow it’s never turned out quite that terrifying, though! I just sent another email, so here goes. My goal is to email at least one different person a week.

        1. LawCat*

          You’ve got a lot of negative self talk going on there. I’ve been through bouts of getting down on myself too so I get it. Unfortunately, it can really mess with your perception of yourself and how you think others will perceive you. I find it helpful to reverse positions. If you were connecting with someone interested in your area of work, would you think they were pathetic for not being in that area of work, or horrible if they had questions about your path and what you do?? Of course not! :-)

          Sounds like you’ve got the ball rolling and I hope as your momentum builds, it will turn from finding this terrifying to find it exciting.

          1. MegaMoose, Esq*

            Thanks LawCat, and you’re right. Part of the reason my search has been as extended as it has been was because of my needing to deal with some mental stuff that was really holding me back – I’ve been working pretty hard to get past those feelings. I’m maybe 50/50 terrified to excited right now, but I felt a lot better about my chances after my coffee this week, so hopefully that will continue to build. And it helps that I’ve been fascinated by this area of law for years and just hadn’t been pursuing it because I thought my strengths lay elsewhere.

  76. Nervous Accountant*

    I had my very first feedback meeting EVER the other day and good God was it nerve wracking. (giving not getting lol).

    It gets easier doesnt it?

    1. Allypopx*

      It does. You’ll have a few more like that, particularly if/when you have super negative feedback or disciplinary action to give. But minor critiques and positive feedback are super easy after awhile.

      Following some format even if it’s just loose and in your head helps. “I’m going to comment on incident/project A, incident/project B, x performance area, then y performance area, and end with an overall temperature read” for instance.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It does. I thought of it as finding my own voice or getting used to hearing my own voice saying new-to-me things.

      And an unexpected kicks in. You will start to realize that it IS important to get the job done and done correctly. It always helps when we believe our own words and see the actual need for what we are saying.

      To motivate myself, I told myself that people needed ME to be fair and be forthright. People want their paychecks and they want to know that they can continue to get paid. It’s up to me to help them make that happen.

  77. Applicant Screening Question*

    Question. I’m screening applicants, and I find myself forgiving grammatical errors in the cover letters of candidates with foreign-sounding names more than candidates with generic names. I don’t want to screen out a candidate because English isn’t their first language, but I’m also screening writing ability for a reason. I realized that if this were a blind process where I couldn’t see their names, I’d screen the candidate out over their cover letter. Advice on how to balance this? I’m so embarrassed to admit this

    1. Lady Julian*

      I don’t do hiring, but I wouldn’t worry too much about it?

      I teach college writing and am far more forgiving of grammatical errors with non-native speakers. You know that picture of equality, with the three kids looking over a fence; and for the short kid to look over the fence, he has to stand on a box that’s twice as tall as the medium-height kids’ box, and the tall kid doesn’t need a box at all? I think that comes into play here; non-native speakers are starting a lot closer to the ground, so to speak, when it comes to communicating in English, and I feel that being forgiving with grammar errors is like providing them a taller box.

    2. Gail Davidson-Durst*

      Give yourself a break – you’re not discriminating against people on the basis of their apparent ethnicity. I think it’s fine to screen for excellent command of the official language of your workplace. If I applied for a position at a firm that does business in French, and oral/written communication was a key part of the role, I wouldn’t be surprised to be ruled out!

      Also keep in mind that judging people to have “foreign-sounding ” name is not reliable anyway. A Saaranga Singh or Bozena Bugajski might well be someone born in the US who is just terrible at grammar, spelling, and composition!

      1. Allison*

        Or someone who was born overseas but moved here when they were still a kid, and has had plenty of time to learn English.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Could you create a blind screening process for yourself? Ask someone to white out names on resumes and then see where that leads you?

      If perfect (or near-perfect) written English is genuinely essential to the job, then you should screen out folks who don’t have that skill, regardless of their nationality. But it’s definitely worth considering how much that really matters. (For example, I have a pretty traditional office job. I write a lot, and I’m sure my writing ability was helpful in getting the job. But someone who wrote with the small mistakes/awkward phrasings/etc. of a non-native speaker could do my job just as effectively and I would encourage my employer not to screen for perfect written English.)

      1. Manders*

        I think this is the best solution. Blind screening is a good idea anyway, I wish more companies would commit to it.

      2. SophieChotek*

        I agree with blind screening.
        Or if writing ability is so important, ask for a separate writing sample of some kind? (Not sure about this.)

      3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Yeah, I agree here.

        At OldJob, we had a hire who was clearly smart, but her command of English was really not that fantastic — and it was in a job that was almost entirely reading and understanding! She ended up getting fired for unrelated reasons (she may have been intelligent, but her Wis score was garbage and shenanigans occurred) before action was taken regarding her blatant lack of reading comprehension and ability to communicate in writing, but it was a real drag on the team.

    4. Uncivil Engineer*

      I would screen everyone using the same criteria. A cover letter should be an applicant putting their best foot forward and a foreign-sounding name doesn’t mean the person isn’t a native English speaker. A lot of people have others read and comment on their cover letters regardless of whether English is their first language. You may find out during the interview that their writing skills are not up to par but that could happen with someone with any type of name.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I think you are saying that you are cutting slack to people with foreign sounding names but have another stricter set of criteria for the Bobs and Marys who apply.

      If writing is part of the job then you have to screen for the same level of writing ability no matter the name of the applicant. Your company is trusting you to find someone who will do right by the company.

      It may help to create a cheat sheet of check points and apply this list of check points to each and every application. Let’s say (making this up for example purposes) you decide that you CAN over look one error in any letter/resume. Okay, so that is what you have decided on and it should be applied to all applicants consistently across the board, everyone gets one error that is overlooked. (Obviously, not a real life example. Your checklist can be whatever you know would be appropriate given the responsibilities of the job you are hiring for.)

  78. Rejections*

    I do hiring for entry level blue collar workers. Some don’t list email addresses with their applications and I know from the employees we hire, a good chunk of the ones who do have email listed don’t check it regularly.

    My question is: what’s the best way to handle rejecting candidates? We always want to reach out to those who came in for an interview but I’m not sure how to do that in the best way.

    Right now, I call the candidates but that’s just an uncomfortable situation for everyone. I know from reading here and elsewhere, e-mail is typically preferred with only positive news by phone. But since the applications are often received in person and everything else happens by phone, I don’t know if an email rejection would be appropriate.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      How about snail-mail? I’d much prefer that to a phone rejection, but if I’ve interviewed, I’d still prefer a phone rejection to nothing.

      1. Undine*

        You have to be careful, though. I am old enough to remember snailmail rejections, and when you got them at all, they were often a postcard (cheaper), with a form note. It was totally humiliating to think that the postman could have read them.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq*

          Oh jeeze, that sucks. I’ve only ever gotten letters, on letterhead, in an envelope. The judicial branches (state and federal) do most of their rejecting that way. They’re still forms, of course, but on fancy paper!

        2. SophieChotek*

          Yeah, I’ve always gotten my snail mail rejections on letterhead in an envelope; honestly would not have occurred to me it would get sent on a postcard.

          I hear you about the rejection via phone issue; I remember the discussion a few months back that most would prefer to have email so they don’t have to respond right away. (Or for interviewer to get argued with.)

          I suppose you could argue for email since it’s rejection…it’s not like you are waiting for Jane to confirm an interview time. Or would you anticipate getting calls then about “I have not heard about my application…”and then you’d still have to say in person, “we sent an email rejecting you” (said better than that of course)….?

  79. Long Distance Job Search*

    I’m spoiled for choice but really anxious at the moment.

    I work in an industry where only a handful of cities tend to have meaningful work available. A year and a half ago, I took a job that required me to move to basically the 4th largest of these cities (City D) from the biggest (City A).

    Now my job is ending and it looks like the company I work for is closing their outpost here. On the plus side, I have three bigger cities, including City A, that I can move to. On the minus side, it seems like nobody wants to give me the time of day because I’m not currently located in any of those cities. I know I’m only applying for things I’m fully qualified for, can move on short notice, and would not require relocation assistance.

    Long-distance job searching hasn’t been covered on AAM in a while. I’d love any tips you guys have that have helped you land a gig from far away! And also any insight you have about what might make the most sense…

    City A – Which I’m very familiar with and has the most opportunity, but costs an arm and a leg….I could never afford a house there and would be screwed financially after 6 months if higher-paying work doesn’t materialize.

    City B – Also a big city with lots of opportunity and a 2 hour drive from my hometown, would love to live there at least once, but the weather is worse, I still can’t afford real estate without a long commute, and I’m just not as familiar with it

    City C – Growing city, up and coming in my industry, can definitely afford to buy a house in a nearby suburb, decent weather…but I’ve literally never set foot there.

    I do not want to stay in City D.

    I’m leaning toward City A or City C and will probably just have to pick one without something lined up, unless you lovely commenters have the inside scoop on how to land a job from afar! TIA

    1. RavensandOwls*

      I just landed a job in a different city and state… going from a smallish area to a major metropolitan area, where the CoL is three times higher.

      Since moving was a certainty (spouse is PCSing with the military), and we knew the location and approximate dates, I:
      -Changed all of my LinkedIn/Indeed/website stuff to new city and took my current address off of my cover letter (I left on telephone # and social media info)
      -Was very upfront about the move in my cover letter – “My spouse and I are relocating to X at the end of Y due to a PCS”
      -Got myself in contact with what felt like literally every person in the new area who worked in my field, and landed on a few listservs for my job type, which is where I ultimately found the job I just got

      Maybe it helped? I’ve done a cross country job search before, but I was quite young (early 20s) at the time and was very entry level, so I could afford to take whatever came.

  80. anon for this (batman)*

    This thing happened and I’m not sure how to feel about it. I don’t plan to do anything at the moment but would appreciate… i don’t know, validation?

    for context I’m a woman in an academic environment.

    So a couple of days ago at work a (male, individual contributor) colleague put together a slide deck with the details of a particularly vexing bug he had managed to track down. This is someone I have no direct interaction with & have met once or twice.

    The last slide was a picture of Batman with the caption “World’s greatest detective?” (Batman’s tagline.)

    This is all well and good and actually 100% appropriate for our somewhat relaxed environment. HOWEVER…

    In my free time I am (shockingly) an adult with pretty risque tastes. And I immediately recognized the picture of Batman as from a College Humor batman parody video entitled “Batman Can’t Stop Thinking about Sex.” It’s quite NSFW and the line in question comes up when Batman is talking about how he found the clitoris! He’s the world’s greatest detective!

    My immediate reaction was amusement and I actually privately messaged him saying essentially “lol, I don’t think anyone else recognized that photo.” His response in its entirety was a smiley face emoticon.

    But after a minute or two of thought I am kind of annoyed.

    I believe that he expected that nobody would recognize it; we’re not so relaxed that an explicit sexual message would be appropriate.

    But, you know, I *did* recognize it. And it feels skeevy that he snuck this really sexual joke into his presentation. A joke that, yeah, I really appreciate and think is hilarious. But not in a work context, and certainly not in a work context where this guy is trying to slip it under the radar for his own private amusement.

    In the long term, I’m can now be socially on my guard around this guy, which I wouldn’t have been otherwise, so that’s something good that’s come out of this at least.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Unless I’m missing some nuance here (and I know nothing about Batman or his tagline or whatever, so it’s very possible that I am), it doesn’t sound like he necessarily meant to include a sexual joke. My first guess would be that he just googled “Batman” or “World’s Greatest Detective” and found the image — even without knowing specifically where it’s from.

      If you know for sure that he intentionally used it, then yes, it feels really skeevy to me too.

      1. anon for this (batman)*

        I did use the word “NSFW” when I messaged him. He has no plausible deniability.

        Also, I googled both of those things and didn’t find the picture he used.

        1. Sualah*

          I mean, if I’d just searched and gotten that image back, and then a coworker that I hardly knew private messaged me “lol, I don’t think anyone else recognized that NSFW photo” and I had no idea what they were talking about (how was that NSFW, I would wonder), I could see myself replying back with a smiley. What else should I say?

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            Yes, me too. If it was a good work friend I may have said/chatted something like “Wait, what??” but otherwise I just wouldn’t want to get into it.

      2. RavensandOwls*

        This – a teacher I worked with several years ago was doing a music video project with her science class and pulled up, “I’m on a Carbon”, a parody of “I’m on a Boat” by the Lonely Island. She didn’t understand why her kids thought it was hysterical until I pointed her to the original source after school, at which point she was quite embarrassed.

          1. RavensandOwls*

            It truly was. I adore said coworker and still keep in touch with her years later, but she was so innocent about the internet… the look on her face when I said, “Why do you think they keep repeating ‘methylformate’? was priceless.”

            That said, when I did the same project with my highschoolers, I did not use that as an example. (I did, however, get the BEST parody to Rick Astley I’ve ever seen.)

    2. Beezus*

      Are you sure he knew it from the same source you know it from? He could have just Google image searched “detective meme”, or who knows what else, and came across the image that way. And images like that get repurposed in memes on sites like 9gag and imgur, or heck, even Facebook. The smiley face response he texted back to you doesn’t really say much.

    3. C Average*

      I used to use memes a lot in internal blog posts–it always bumped up engagement–and I’d often just Google something and browse the images and grab one that worked. I’m betting that’s what your guy did. If you Google “Batman,” that one comes up pretty high in the image search results. You don’t have to be a perv to randomly run across it and appropriate it for a presentation. I would go with the presumption of “not a perv.”

    4. The OG Anonsie*

      I mean… It was a picture of Batman. I wouldn’t say the picture somehow becomes inappropriate because it was a still from a NSFW video. Even if he knew the source (and he might not have) I don’t really think this is something to worry about.

    5. Newby*

      I don’t think that it is really an “explicit sexual message” when taken out of it’s original context. If he had a link to the site or something else, that would be totally inappropriate, but the way he used it made it just a picture of batman.

    6. anon for this (batman)*

      Now I wish I hadn’t posted this. I explicitly asked for validation and I’ve gotten nothing but the opposite.

      I’ve made a screenshot of the slide: http://imgur.com/QtE09Q3
      You’re welcome to do your own Googling for this image and confirm that it’s an innocent coincidence.

      2. Aisling*

        …You didn’t ask for validation. You said you sorta wanted it, and added a question mark after the word “validation”. That made it sound like you weren’t sure about your reaction, so we all chimed in with our reactions. I find it a little strange that you are upset about people chiming in with reactions other than the one you had. This is a discussion board; you don’t get to control the reactions of others.

        For what it’s worth, I don’t think it’s a big deal either. And, since you didn’t think it was a big deal at first, I don’t think you really think it is either. It sounds like you’re overthinking it.

      3. risque or risky*

        LOL so you have trashy tastes (because collegehumor is trashy) and you found out your colleague also has trashy taste and you’re offended by that? Do you think nobody ever thinks about s-x at work? It’s not explicit, it’s not going to offend anyone who doesn’t know about the source video. And being offended because we’re not agreeing with you? Beyond ridiculous.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Once is a mistake, twice is a heads up, three times is a pattern.

      Has he made other inappropriate references?

      1. anon for this (batman)*

        This is the first I’ve noticed; it’s also about the 3rd time ever I’ve interacted directly with him. So we’re at “mistake”, I suppose.

  81. Zoe Karvounopsina*

    One of my colleagues has her last day today, and one has just resigned. I am trying to stay positive, and think of ways I can progress within the organisation, but it is a bit hard, especially since the currently departing colleague won’t be replaced for six weeks, and I am likely to be firefighting for part of them. And a colleague has gone on leave.

    HOWEVER, my boss has indicated willingness to discuss training to help me develop, and I am stuck for things to suggest. Can anyone suggest things to think about that will help me develop my thinking?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I hate it when a boss does not direct which way training should go.

      You could make a short list of areas you are concerned about. Or you could ask for continuing ed, if appropriate. For me, I would ask for training in the areas that the most murky for me and come up the most often. You could ask him what would be to your best advantage to get training in. In other words, where does he think you could be most helpful.

  82. GoodGollyMissMolly*

    I have to make small talk all the time at my job. We do a lot of recruitment, and I usually have a lot of alone time with applicants between interviews or walking/to places around the hospital I work at. I never know how to fill this time and I feel completely socially awkward trying to come up with conversation points. I try to fill the silence by asking questions like, “So are you from Missouri originally?”, or “What brings you to St. Louis?” (since we get applicants from all over the country/world) and just let them talk so I don’t have to…but after a few of these superficial questions, my brain freezes and the conversation quickly gets stale if you’re standing around and have to fill 20 minutes worth of time. Also, I’m in a very talkative and social office, but I have no idea how to be an interesting conversation partner on a consistent basis. How do I get better at small talk?!

    1. GreatExpectations*

      My favorite small talk tip, courtesy of this blog post (http://3-chairs.com/life/a-trick-for-avoiding-small-talk/) is to ask people for their advice. Although I definitely could see this getting awkward in an interviewer/interviewee dynamic! If you have out of town applicants I also find that having some canned talking points about area highlights that leads to follow up questions can be useful (i.e., We have great [insert list of some amenities] in our area. What do you like to do/eat/play?]).

    2. Gandalf the Nude*

      I bought this deck of conversation cards, We! Connect, after seeing them at the NCSHRM conference last year. I was really sold on the mission of making better connections through conversation and improving or eliminating small talk. I’ve been slowly trying to memorize them. Things like, “What book on your shelf are you looking forward to reading?” and “What were you doing the last time you laughed so hard you cried?” and “What has been the highlight of your week so far?” Things that are still innocuous but less likely to get a, “Oh, um, yeah” in response or to feel like an extension of the interview. So far they’ve helped me get through two parties where I didn’t know anyone, meeting a new CEO, a community service recruit event, and Thanksgiving dinner with my horrible relatives.

      All that not to say, “Go by this $25 deck of cards!” I mean, if you want that specific deck, go for it. But rather find a set of deeper but still neutral questions, memorize, and start using them.

    3. Trillian*

      Maybe it’s not necessary in this case. When I’m at a job interview or visiting a new place, I appreciate the chance just to take in my surroundings. I learn a lot by observing, and I don’t need to be entertained every moment. Maybe take your cue from the visitor. If they’re relaxed and looking around, leave them be once you’ve taken care of their needs. Ask them if they have questions, and then let the questions come. If they’re looking tense, don’t make them answer questions. Tell them about their surroundings. Who built the hospital. Who did the art in the foyer. Who the pictures are of. What new equipment is on order and how people raised funding for it. Or which celebrity opened the new wing.

  83. Not my usual user name*

    My boss complained to my colleague that I’m a schemer, unfriendly and inscrutable, and how I’m not a team player because I take everything personally. I have good relationships with people in and outside my department, my colleagues come to me for help and I provide it gladly, and some of us hang out outside of work, too. But who knows, am I just imagining that I have okay relationships?

    She’s been strangely rude and mercurial to me since almost day one, which is weird, because I was reportedly her top pick when she hired me last summer. She’s kind of iffy to everyone, but seems to hold me to somewhat different standards of behaviour. She especially hates when I ask questions for clarification – she seems to seem to interpret every single thing I say as defensive and immediately gets exasperated. No other manager here treats me that way. I dunno what the deal is…if it’s my ethnicity, the fact that I’m an introvert, that I’m childless and unmarried…I don’t know anymore, and I’m beginning to internalize everything she says about me.

    1. amysee*

      Hmm… I of course know nothing about the situation but it sounds to me like perhaps your boss is the one who is unfriendly, inscrutable and a schemer. Regardless, if she said these things to your coworker about you it’s pretty unprofessional of her.

      If you have not already, you can talk to other coworkers or managers you feel comfortable with to ask them informally about your performance (i.e., “Do you feel like I strike a good balance between working independently and asking for feedback and clarification?”). This could help you verify your perception of your work & relationships.

      You can also bring up issues directly to your boss to see if she wants you to handle things differently (i.e., “I’ve noticed that you seem frustrated when I ask clarifying questions about my assignments. Is there another way you’d like me to handle these questions when they come up?”). The way she responds to this kind of inquiry will be instructive.

      Good luck!

      1. Not my usual user name*

        She has only ever responded with a weird rudeness and combativeness that doesn’t seem in line with anything I could possible be doing wrong. It’s at the point where I’ve had to informally talk to HR about strategies to deal with getting clarifications about her feedback.

        1. amysee*

          Yeah this doesn’t sound salvageable. If there are formal channels you can go through that are trustworthy (formal complaint to HR if you feel there’s bias at play, conversation with your boss’s boss etc.) then you might want to try that route. Your manager does not sound reasonable.

          It also sounds like you are a few months away from your one-year mark. Seems to me like a great time to start looking for another job or to try to transfer to another division in your company (if that’s an option), so that you can celebrate your first year at this job by turning in your notice. :)

          1. Not my usual user name*

            Well, burying the lede, I’ve found a new job, because this didn’t feel salvageable. She wanted to pretend there wasn’t a continuing issue but seemed to have a lot of trouble treating me like a normal human at times. My relationships with my colleagues and other departments are fine, but has often expressed that I’m not a team player and how I don’t “fit” with my team.

            I turned in my notice a couple days ago and she was fine to my face, but sent an uncharacteristically cold all-staff email announcing my departure and then trash-talked me to my colleague.

            It’s weird and sad working for someone who thinks they can constantly bait you and then throw you under the bus for reacting (or claim you’re “inscrutable” for not reacting). It makes me scared for the future because I don’t know how I’m supposed to shrug this off.

            1. PollyQ*

              The “deal” is that your boss is definitely a bad manager, probably a bad person, and maybe even a racist. (Is your ethnicity Asian? “Inscrutable” and “conniving” are old & ugly sterotypes there.)

              I’m very glad to hear that you’re leaving, so my advice is to leave her negativity behind and not give it an ounce of credence.

              1. Not my usual user name*

                I’m of an ethnicity that’s associated with a nasty stereotype about angry women. I kind of accept that it means that my professional interactions are probably going to be a bit less effective than if I were of some other race, and that in the worst case scenario people might be quick to misread me and think I’m horrible.

                Because of this, it’s hard to be assertive in a normal, professional way because I don’t want to be dismissed as an ethnic sereotype. But then I try to hang back a bit and it still makes a negative impression? I feel like I can’t win and that this kind of nonsense could haunt my entire career.

                1. Fortitude Jones*

                  We’re of the same race, but from reading some of your replies here, I’m not sure if that’s the issue. Your boss may have been envious of the relationships you’ve formed with people (hence her weird assertion to your coworker that you’re unfriendly) particularly if you weren’t all that close to her. Additionally, you just put in your notice – she’s pissed and now those feelings of envy are coming out ten times stronger. It happened to me with my last manager, who admittedly did treat me and another woman of my same race (along with a woman of her race) like the golden children who could do no wrong – until I began posting for other internal positions. Then everything I did from that point forward was wrong, and she went out of her way to badmouth me every chance she got, even though she’d been singing my praises for seven months prior (and campaigned to hire me out of my training program).

            2. amysee*

              Glad you’re out of there! Good for you for looking out for yourself. And I think I see what you’re saying about how the situation feels. Work PTSD is definitely a thing. When it’s happened to me, it’s taken some time to settle into a new, less toxic work environment and realize that crazy stuff wasn’t lurking around every corner like it was in the old job. In my experience the shrugging off takes a while, but it happens.

              Also your soon-to-be former boss is basically digging her own grave professionally with her behavior. Yuck.

    2. Hrovitnir*

      :/ I agree with amysee. That’s really hard. I don’t have professional advice, but try not to believe her? Sure, you should make sure to examine your work and personal behaviour from time to time, but calling you “a schemer” certainly doesn’t sound like a reasonable statement.

      Even when I’ve worked with truly awful people and have talked with coworkers about their scary lack of empathy and need to wield power over others, it hasn’t just been a string of insults.

    3. Undine*

      I’m of the opinion that people tend to see what they know, so if she says “you” take everything personally, that says something about her. Telling your colleague something like this is a huge red flag — outside of the context of planning a PIP, any boss who tells anyone up front that one of their reports is a “schemer” is being horribly unprofessional. You are in a bad spot, you should think about how to protect yourself and whether you can transfer. If there is anyway to safely/reasonably bring this up to HR or your grandboss, think about how to do that, because she can give you an undeserved bad reputation.

  84. Anon Accountant*

    So I had an interesting interview this week. They asked me several times how I handle stress and then asked “how do you handle someone questioning your competence”.

    This kinda scares me since my current job is toxic. So is this a warning sign there’s a lot of dealing with difficult people in the role? It’s for a corporate accounting position if that matters.

    1. Gandalf the Nude*

      That’s so specific, I’d be surprised if it wasn’t an indication that it’s a thing that happens. Definitely don’t take the job without following that up.

        1. Anon Accountant*

          The hair on the back of my neck stood up at it too. I thought “how often does this occur that you ask candidates in interviews how they handle this”. As though it was a normal thing and not out of the ordinary at all.

    2. Sibley*

      As a fellow accountant, I’m kinda wondering if what happens is someone screws up what they’re supposed to, it causes a problem, then they blame Accounting. When really, the person messed up and doesn’t want to admit it. Which sucks for you, but assuming it’s not too nasty, is probably fairly common.

      1. Anon Accountant*

        Accounting does get blamed unfairly sometimes. I’m hoping that’s all it would be.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      Asking more than once is a sign that there is a vengeful moron who blames everything on accounting some where in that company. I’d probably pass if they asked those questions more than twice.

      1. Anon Accountant*

        Good point. The final interview was with an HR manager and 2 others that have nothing to do with the role. It was very odd when they asked 2 times in that interview “how do you handle stress”, “do you go home and scream at your family, etc”. Then asked about how you handle someone questioning your competence.

  85. Lady Julian*

    More of a comment than a question: I like my current job (teaching writing & literature at a community college). BUT, there’s no room for development in my career, we’re not stable financially, and the environment is a tad sexist. I’ve been here six years and am starting to feel pretty stuck.

    So I’ve been looking elsewhere. I applied to a PhD program at the beginning of January and don’t think I got in. :( I’ve also applied to a series of MLIS degrees and been accepted to every single one of them. I’m excited about this opportunity, I think I’d really like being a librarian, but I’m super nervous about taking on debt (this would be my first school-related debt) for a hiring market that’s not the greatest. Not that my current hiring market (English teachers) is particularly strong, of course.

    So now, decisions. Sigh . . . .

    1. Manders*

      How do you feel about teaching high school? My husband was in a similar position to you, teaching at a community college but without room for advancement and always worrying about money. He switched to a private high school and loves it.

      Just yesterday, I told him, “Dude, I haven’t seen you have a panic attack in ages.” All the fun of teaching, less (but still some) departmental politics, no more worrying about whether we’ll be able to just barely scrape by with his income.

    2. Blackout*

      I’m always hesitant to recommend librarianship to others as a profession. It’s worked out just fine for me (so far, knock on wood), but I feel like luck has played a fairly significant role in this, and I know that there are lots of MLS-holders out there that can’t find good librarian jobs. It’s just a really saturated field right now, and library schools are churning out way too many new librarians every year (IMO). Especially if you don’t have previous experience working in libraries, taking on more debt for a MLS program would be a huge risk.

      That said, having teaching experience may get you a foot in the door with academic libraries, where library instruction is always needed. Maybe you could talk to the librarian at your community college? She might have more current information on that job market than I do (it’s been 10+ years since I worked in an academic library).

    3. Records Manager/Librarian*

      Don’t go to library school. I cannot say this emphatically enough. There are no jobs. There is way too much competition for the ones that are out there. You will most likely spend more money on a degree that will not pay itself back. If you like libraries, be a volunteer or get a “para-professional” job. From the bottom of my cold heart, don’t do it.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. It is worse than going to a second rate law school (there aren’t many jobs there either) Getting a degree because it would allow you to advance when you already have a library related career going might make sense. But this is a field which is shrinking as budget challenged institutions cut libraries and hire people without credential as positions do open up.

    4. Newby*

      A friend of mine got a MLIS degree but she had worked in the library for years before she went into the program. She did it part time while still working as a librarian and only did it so that she could be hired as the chief librarian. You might want to see if you can get a job in a library before committing to a degree that comes with debt so that you will know if this is actually what you want to do.

    5. anonymouse*

      Be very cautious.

      Taking on debt for a career that might never materialize is very risky. I’m speaking as a librarian, and the market is not great. You might not be able to find a FT job after graduation for years; can you subsist on PT or on-call jobs? Not only survive, but service the debt?

    7. MLIS Grad*

      While I usually do caution people against getting an MLIS, most of those people considering it don’t think they’d really like being a librarian.. it’s more of a fallback. But I have a couple of thoughts, partially in response to what others said regarding the degree..
      -I worked full time and only borrowed what I needed for tuition. I also received a scholarship (it only covered the course of one class, but still) .. some CCs do offer tuition reimbursement, so that’s something to consider. What I did before considering an MLIS degree was figure out how much debt I’d have to take on for it, and then did the math on how much my monthly payments would be, and was able to determine I’d be able to make the payments with my job at the time. Obviously I hoped I’d get into a DIFFERENT job, but I tried to view it with the potential that I might still be there after I graduated.

      -I think the people most successful with the degree are those who are flexible and creative with it, and also the ones who put some effort into the classes. (You’d be surprised– or maybe you wouldn’t be!– at how many of my classmates put in the bare minimum.) Many MLIS programs have lots of tech courses and teach skills that are transferrable to other fields. I see TONS of well-paying research analyst positions that, with the right mix of classes in an MLIS program, could be very attainable. Of course, lots of people in my program specifically wanted to work in public libraries and wouldn’t consider much else. If you have a very narrow idea of what you want to do, then I’d say don’t do it. Also, if you live in a smaller area and won’t be able to move, I’d also discourage you. I live in a large urban area, so jobs that use library skills are plentiful, even if there is competition.. but that’s not the case in smaller areas, like it would be for any field (although as others have mentioned, the library field is very saturated to start).

  86. GreatExpectations*

    I had a really strange experience with an outside vendor who does IT security support for my organization. She was extremely combative and rude on the phone, as well as insistent that her emails contained instruction information, which they clearly did not (there was a whole inbox thread contradicting her claims). I reported this incident up our chain of command to our internal security officer as the vendor’s behavior seemed a bit volatile to be charged with maintaining and monitoring a critical piece of our security. I mostly mentioned this observation in hopes that it would be noted in case this is part of a broader pattern, however, this internal security officer wants to follow up with the vendor directly. I’m concerned that the vendor will trace the complaint back to me. Do you think it makes sense to ask my internal security officer to hold off on doing this until there’s a broader pattern of behavior established?

    1. Sibley*

      The company is paying the vendor for a service. They got a complaint about an interaction with the vendor, and they have every right to discuss what happened with the vendor.

      If the vendor wants to trace it back to you and then retaliate against you, then that vendor has a serious problem and probably won’t be your vendor much longer.

    2. Observer*

      Why on earth should they hold off?

      Why are you worried about the vendor figuring out who the complaint came from? If there is any chance that a vendor would retaliate (or allow any member of their staff to retaliate), then they shouldn’t be a vendor.

  87. Victoria, Please*

    I’m feeling very exasperated by people who get (taxpayer) money for special projects and then… don’t do the project completely or follow through with all the requirements because they’re just too damn busy and important to fulfill their obligations. That is all.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      My organization gave a grant for a special project that wasn’t completed. We made them give the money back so we could give it to another project. Hopefully that will help you feel better. :)

    2. SophieChotek*

      Yes I was going to say don’t they usually have to give the money back if they don’t fulfill whatever their grant said they would do?

    3. Victoria, Please*

      These are small, internal affairs and it would cost us more in tracking than it costs just to let it go. The issue is, we pay them these funds for their time to do a project — and the way we’re structured, we kind of have to pay them at least partially before the work is done. I’m extra grumpy about it today. I need to make a doghouse list and people who do this aren’t eligible for the next opportunity.

  88. oldfashionedlovesong*

    Today is my last day at my current job! A few weeks ago I received a job offer that will take me back to my home state, near family and friends, doing work I am so excited by, making a bit more money than I’m making now. I know “dream jobs” aren’t really a thing, but this gets close. I’ve written here in the past about how I moved across the country three years ago to take my current job, and realized very quickly what a terribly dysfunctional gong show this place is. I’ve been quietly, slowly, applying to jobs for about two years now, being extremely selective because I wanted to find the best fit, and I am thrilled that I’ve found it. Thank you to all of you who’ve given advice on how to cope with this bonkers environment, how to make my job search work, and commiserated with me! Especially to Allison who has replied to more than one of my comments and even an email query a long time ago. It sounds like I’m saying goodbye, doesn’t it? I’m not – I have every intention of continuing to read and contribute. Thanks guys :)

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Dysfunctional gong show. Am stealing this.

      Good for you! And congrats! Many happy years at your new place.

    2. Hrovitnir*

      Congratulations! I bet it will be even better than you expect – I can’t describe the relief I felt when I left my toxic workplace, it was so good.

  89. discarvard*

    Two weeks ago, an employer I’d just finished the second round of interviews with (totaling about 6 hours) said they’d get back to me within two weeks. I want to check back about an updated timeline, but it’s hard to shake the feeling that checking in achieves nothing and they’ll get back to me when they do irrespective of what I ask. Has anyone else checked back and received any kind of helpful reply?

    1. Murphy*

      Once I was told that someone had needed to be out of the office and that it had slowed down their process some. It put my mind at ease a bit, but didn’t really didn’t make any difference in terms of getting an answer.

  90. Princess Carolyn*

    I never know what I’m supposed to be doing at my new job. My boss and grandboss have been in marathon meetings much of the week and I often find myself waiting for instructions or feedback so I can continue work on my assignments. Grandboss seems frustrated that things aren’t getting done faster, but I don’t have all the information I need to do it. At least, I don’t feel like I do.

    Any advice here? I’m very worried that I’m just not being enough of a “self-starter” here. I don’t want my managers to feel like they have to hold my hand.

    1. jebly*

      I would compile easy to read emails with the information or feedback needed for you to proceed across projects. They’re obviously super busy and just want everything streamlined. I’d say something like, “I’m at a point I need the following specs and approvals:” and bullet point all that you need. Or, if you need in-person guidance, ask for a quick 5 minute meeting. Gotta be proactive!

      1. Princess Carolyn*

        I’ll try to incorporate that into my approach. Yesterday, my direct manager came to me and said “OK, I’ve been a huge bottleneck this week…” so that makes me feel better, like maybe it won’t always be this way.

        1. Princess Carolyn*

          I agree that bullet points are great. I’m just frustrated because I’ve been here about 3 weeks and received almost no guidance or instruction. It feels pushy to send an email reminding my managers that I’m waiting on feedback for three separate pieces of writing (which will serve as guides for ~30 nearly identical but not quite identical pieces of writing). But… maybe it has to be that way. It’s a brand new job for me and a newly created position for them… and I just really think they weren’t ready for me to start. They still have tons of bigger things to figure out and haven’t had time to tell me wtf they want me to do. I spend hours of my day feeling frustrated and bored because I don’t know what to do and can’t get in touch with anyone who could help because they’re all in meetings or out of the office.

    2. Owly*

      You should probably try to book BoJack some movies!!!

      Not much real advice, just to try to put something together the best you can, even without all the info. People love to wait to tear apart documents and stuff after you have put tons of effort in, as opposed to just helping you through the process.

  91. Electric Hedgehog*

    I got a 12.5% raise this week! I’m now making 32% more than I was two years ago!! Man, sometimes I just love my management team – I met with them to tell them that I felt underpaid 18 months ago, and they have really worked hard to make me feel valued and to get my compensation to a pretty good level. Hooray for good management.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Ugh. I’m paid 30% below market and I have been dreading bring this up to my boss. I’ve actually been interviewing at other places because I think it may be easier to just leave and be paid fairly rather than mess with internal politics.
      I’m glad it worked for you. Here’s hoping it works for us all.

      1. Jadelyn*

        I hear you – same thing here. I’ve had to claw and scrape and beg and plead for every tiny scrap at this place, I’m just barely above the minimum for my position even though I’m a star performer according to my reviews. I presented my case late last year for an adjustment to bring me, not even over or to the midpoint of my range, but to like 90% of the midpoint of the range for my position. It not only was denied, it was literally ignored until I was presented with the standard 3% annual increase and *I asked* “So I guess this means the answer was no to my request?” And then I was the one entering everyone’s increases, literally sick to my stomach with frustration and jealousy while I’m entering people who had 8, 10, the highest was a 13% increase.

        I’m starting to search because I’m tired of waiting for them to recognize or quit playing internal politics with me. So I commiserate, and I wish you the best in your search!

    2. Hrovitnir*

      Hurrah! I have only ever worked one job that gave regular raises, so I am deeply jaded about the whole thing – and excited for you. Good work. ^_^

  92. Anon InfoSec*

    Hi all! Going anon for this, but I have a very industry and location-specific question. I’m a senior InfoSec worker who quit my last position and moved to DC over six months ago for my partner’s career, as we assumed I should be able to find something fairly quickly.

    However, we didn’t realize the impact of not already having a security clearance, and it’s become a significant obstacle (you can’t get a clearance without being hired to do work that requires a clearance, which is a great catch-22) especially with the recent hiring freeze. At this point, I’m not even seeing many jobs that don’t require an existing clearance. Does anyone familiar with this industry have any advice? Or thoughts on lateral moves, areas that are less strict about clearances, networking options? Thanks in advance for anything you can offer!

    1. Christian Troy*

      This probably isn’t what you’re looking for, but honestly, companies don’t generally sponsor security clearances on applicants because it (a) takes A LOT of time and (b) too many good applicants already have it from previous experiences, not necessarily through private sector employment. It’s too big of a risk to hire someone when they may not even pass the process. My suggestion would be to look for anything you can do in your field that wouldn’t require a clearance if you’re desperate for employment.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      Try looking at some of the big government contractors – they should have contracts with many of the government agencies. Right now the hiring freeze is going to make it impossible to move into government, but if you start with a big contractor, it’s a good way in (and they may at some point sponsor you for a clearance if it’s required for a different position).

  93. Catherine from Canada*

    I’d be really interested to hear what the AAM community has to say about my question.

    I recently bought a small retail store. We sell fabric, and teach sewing classes. The classes are taught by independent contractors, not employees of the store. The former owners were very disorganized and didn’t have a lot of procedures in place; everything was just sort of ad hoc, figure it out as you go along. I’m gradually cleaning it up. Mostly everyone is happy with my changes. Except for one.

    One of those not-really-a-procedure is that when a contractor submits an invoice for their classes, they expect me to cut a check and leave it in the cash drawer for them to pick up the next time they’re in the store. This makes me really uncomfortable. The cash drawer is locked, but the key is not hard to find and it’s open and shut all day by the employees making sales. Not that I don’t trust my employees, I do, they’re great, it just seems a really insecure way to deliver a check.

    I’d prefer to either hand it to them directly or put it in the mail. Since I’m not often in the store when the instructors are, mailing seems the best option. But the instructors are resistant. No one likes change, I get that, but I also wonder if they are resisting my mailing the check because they’re not in the habit of checking their snail mail and think that it’s not secure. I think the mail is more secure and would really prefer to just put checks in the mail box and cross them off my list instead of checking each time I’m in the store that the check has actually been picked up.

    Should I insist on mailing the check,
    or let this go and continue putting the check in the cash drawer,
    or let it slide for a while until they get accustomed to my other changes and then switch to mailing
    or some other solution that I haven’t thought of?

    Thanks!

    1. Manders*

      I would insist on mailing that check. The previous owners really dropped the ball there.

      Depending on how tech-savvy the vendors are, I might say, “I can mail you the check, or I can send send you the money through Paypal/Venmo/etc.” if their concern is getting the money ASAP instead of waiting for the mail. But I’d put a stop to this system right away.

    2. Sibley*

      I’m an auditor. My preferences, in order.:

      1. mail the check.
      2. If you must put checks in the cash drawer, there must be a log with EVERY SINGLE STINKING check put on it. In order to pick up a check, someone who isn’t the lowest level employee must check ID for EVERY SINGLE PERSON and put it on the log.

      Alternatively, look into electronic payments.

      2. SophieChotek*

        Agree. And maybe add a log book where person getting check and employee handing out check sign to testify it was delivered.

        Alternatively, if your store has a safe in the back room could it be held back there. It might take an extra minute or two for the MOD to go back and get it but it would be more secure than the front register but still they could get the check that.

        way back it the mid-1990s when I worked for the coffee shop (the first time) you’ve made me remember all the checks came on Friday and just sat on the managers desk and you just came in and took yours; no one watched them or put them in the safe or anything. To my knowledge none ever went astray but I shudder when I think about that now.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Mail isn’t always reliable either. Things get lost all the time.

      Print out a checklist and make them sign for their checks when they come in.

    4. The OG Anonsie*

      I would be pretty miffed if I had to get checks in the mail when I’m going to the source of the checks all the time. Picking up a check in person isn’t exactly a weird procedure, that’s how a lot of retail businesses operate.

      How do your regular employees get their checks? It sounds like you have a better system for them, can you just do the same process for everyone?

      Alternately, it may be as simple as having specific days when they can pick up checks. For example, every Friday you cut a check for every class taught since the previous Friday and are in the store that day to log who picks up their check.

      2. Catherine from Canada*

        I set up auto deposit for the employees, with a service that automagically calculates EI and CPP and tax and does the remittances for me, generates the T4s and everything. The employees are happy with it, one less thing for all of us to manage.
        The instructors, I think part of where they’re coming from is that the former owners were VERY cost conscious and didn’t want to spend a stamp if they didn’t have to. And, yes, they’re coming to the store anyway fairly regularly, so why not get their checks that way?
        And often, the instructors are in the store teaching after hours, so there’s no oversight on their activities. (Which is why I’ve installed a security system with individual login codes, in case someone wants to point out that security gap!:))
        I think I might have to go with having my store manager/business partner hold onto the checks and hand them out. She’s there more often than I am and interacts with all the staff more than I do. (I didn’t give up my day job when we bought the store, and won’t for a while anyway.)

        1. Observer*

          Yes, have your store manager handle the checks. I think that the vendors will appreciate that the checks are more secure.

          Mailing is NOT secure, and you can bet that there are going to be mistakes with the addressing etc. But, I’d seriously look into electronic payments.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Rural area?

      Here the bank is open between 9 and 3, something like that. Never, ever open on weekends or nights and this is a bank that has been owned by many well known corporations.

      The next nearest bank is about 10-12 miles away. It can be a 30 minute drive given weather/traffic (tractor) conditions. It could be that they are timing their pickups to coincide with when the bank is open.

      My mail box is beside the road. I don’t like thinking about a check sitting in there. Conversely for people who have PO box only have limited hours to access that box.

      I can tell you it’s a big deal not to get your check when you expect to get it when living in a rural area.

      I like the idea of them signing for it. Hopefully the check is in a sealed envelope.
      Maybe you can ask them to try the mailing system for a couple months and then come back to talk about how it went.
      Or probably more to the point, ask them why they don’t want it mailed. I can tell you a story. I mailed a check at the post office. It was addressed to the building NEXT door to the post office. It took two months to get there. Maybe this is the problem.

      1. Catherine from Canada*

        No, not rural. I lived rural for 20 years and know well the drawbacks.
        And, actually, I can see from the bank statement that mailing the checks often gets the money to them faster.

    6. Catherine from Canada*

      And thanks to everyone for their responses – I’m happy to hear that I’m not being too picky about this!

  94. Venting*

    Commentariat, please help me find a more positive way to view this situation. My colleague in my small department has young kids. So far this year, she’s been out for about 9-10 days, all but two days because one or both kids was sick or due to daycare closures. She’s also left work early a few times for the same/similar reasons. If she were counting this as PTO, she would be about 1/2 through all of her annual PTO, at the beginning of March.

    Here’s the deal. She says she’ll work from home on these days, but she either doesn’t respond to emails or responds on her phone, i.e., isn’t on her laptop/our VPN so she can get substantive work done. (On a conference call recently, she asked me about an issue she was having with our VPN, which had been updated a few weeks before – so I know she’s not actually signing into the VPN or she wouldn’t have just noticed the problem.) In January, she failed to complete her part of a project I brought her in on, then hadn’t completed it when the project team reconvened in mid-February to hear her results, which reflected poorly on both of us and our department. She’s done about 10% of a joint project she started at the beginning of February with another colleague that is due at the end of March. She keeps to an 7-8 hour day when she is here. Her internal clients come to me for help, because they can’t find her. I can’t delegate work to her, because she’s not here. She’s more junior to me in experience, and when I’ve offered advice or to help her build skills (as asked to by our shared boss), she deflects, is dismissive and makes excuses for why the thing that went wrong isn’t her fault. So, yeah, I’m already BEC with her.

    Our shared boss is aware of her performance issues, but doesn’t notice or understand how much work she is missing because she says she’s working from home. He’s very hands-off on day-to-day management, and leans pretty heavily on me to manage work-flow in our small group. Reviews are this month, and he has hinted pretty heavily that I will be promoted into a position to manage this colleague and others on our team. Meaning his problem becomes mine.

    I support working mothers and understand that kids, especially small kids, require some flexibility. So tell me, at what point can you intervene with a colleague and suggest that she’s missing too much work, or that she needs to stay late/come in early to make up for unexpected absences? Suggest that maybe her husband should take the day off with a sick kid once in a while (I know, I can’t do that, but WTH colleague’s husband?) What do other working parents of small children do in these situations?

    If it matters, we are highly-paid salaried professionals in a corporate environment. Work/life balance is a company value, but it’s understood that situations arise where we may need to stay late or take work home on occasion.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Focus on the tangible. Missing an important deadline is a huge problem, no matter what the reason. Same with having dissatisfied clients who are unable to reach their main point of contact. Those are both actionable issues and should be addressed in her review.

      1. Book Lover*

        I think that is a good way to approach it. Don’t talk about days off or whether or not she is working from home. Focus on the fact she is not available when people need her and that deadlines aren’t being met. Those two things are obviously related, but if you talk about days off or the VPN, you will get stuck in the weeds.

      2. SophieChotek*

        I think I agree here. These have immediate consequences and would be a problem even if she were in the office and for some random reason refusing to answer her phone or check her email or mismanaged her time so badly that even if she worked 40+ hours in the office, it would still be a problem. These are problem, regardless of the reason why they might have been an issue.

    2. ArtK*

      Document, document, document. Record every time you have to answer questions because people can’t find her. Copy your boss on emails. Although it may feel like tattling, it’s not. Your boss is able to ignore the situation and needs to understand the impact.

      1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

        This.

        Do you forward people to her voicemail or leave her a message at her desk when her clients cannot reach her? How does she know her clients are reaching out to you? If you are emailing her, I’d start CC’ing your boss. Especially when it comes in on deadlines.

    3. Temperance*

      I don’t think you’re in BEC territory, because frankly, she’s doing a bad job. I don’t think it matters that she has a kid, she’s not doing her job and she’s taking advantage of a flexible workplace policy to do a bad job.

      If you’re becoming her boss, you have better standing to rein in her nonsense. I would direct clients to your boss if they can’t get in touch with her, because it seems that he’s missing the point.

        1. Temperance*

          Oh, I’m familiar with BEC, I just don’t think it applies here. It sounds like she sucks a lot and does a lot of bad shit.

          1. Venting*

            “she sucks a lot and does a lot of bad shit” – it’s like you’re in my head. ; )

    4. moss*

      I’m a working mom who works from home and this is completely unacceptable. Don’t allow her to abuse the privilege of working from home because that makes the rest of us look bad!

  95. ForeverStudent*

    Hopefully someone can give me some perspective. I applied for a role back in September, received an in-office interview, but they choose another applicant. When the HR representative called to tell me she mentioned that the same role on another team would open in the next few months and some of the people I interview with wanted me apply for that role. I applied for that role mid-January and had a phone interview. I was asked for references and the following week and they were called. Two weeks passed and I had not heard back from the HR representative, so I sent a friendly email asking about the role. She mentioned that I was still a viable candidate, however some new applicants surfaced and they were extending the interview process. Can someone help me understand what just happened. Am I once again being passed over for a role at this company? Is this a case of someone with a referral or connection applied after me and they’re deciding to go with them (I later found out that this happened with the other position)? Or did they feel as though they would be settling by offering me the role and they want to see what else is out there?

    1. jebly*

      I think you’re reading too much into it. They probably received some applications and need extra time to interview. I would trust the HR rep’s word that you’re still a viable candidate – they wouldn’t (hopefully) string you along like this unless they liked you!

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        I agree- it may just be that while most companies prefer to do reference checks right before they make someone an offer, this one could be more of a “rolling hiring” process, and happened to have more people apply to the job after you before they closed the posting(s).

  96. Lynxa*

    A week from unemployment and now I have two potential job offers! I was really starting to panic (especially since a friend who had offered me a position at the firm she owns decided to hire someone else) but I’m feeling much better! I got so much good advice here!!!

  97. Sandy Gnome*

    I’m curious about how other readers would handle this. My mom has been a school-based physical therapist in the same school district for over 20 years. She works for an agency that the school district contracts with for her services. She recently found out that the school district has decided to hire their own therapist rather than continue to contract with the agency. My mom will be applying and likely interviewing for the position and is wondering whether she should inform her current employer. Normally, I’d tell her she doesn’t need to say anything unless she’s gotten an offer, but in this situation the school district has notified the agency that they will be hiring their own employee. Does that change things? The agency knows about the open position and any of them using common sense would assume that she will be applying. What do you think?

  98. jebly*

    I’m in a job where I have nothing to do and nobody talks to me. It’s a poor culture fit, has nothing to do with my work history or education, and I hate it. I’m currently job hunting.

    I had a surprise 90-day review. My boss told me I’m overqualified and she’s never had to NOT babysit someone in the role before. She typically wouldn’t allow me to do personal projects at my desk, but said she couldn’t imagine being as bored as I am everyday, so it’s allowed. She also told me I don’t smile my coworkers enough. I managed to save my eyerolls for after I got out of her office.

    1. Anonnie*

      Yeah I hear you on this. I took my current role because I needed a job and in order to best recover from my last workplace and give myself space to heal. When I saw the description I thought I was maybe overqualified, but the work could be varied and interesting. Its been three months and Ive been under-resourced the last three weeks and the project I do have work on has been lagging behind a very poor project manager who won’t give up the reigns. So I have spent a lot of time trying to look busy while also trying to break the logjam of the project manager AND letting both my line manager and the scheduler know what is up and advocating for projects to get on. Still waiting…

      Today I worked from home as it is a flexible policy and well…I didn’t get much done. There is no pressure or urgency to complete anything and if I do I am STILL under-resourced (time and skill wise) so if I do get something done then I may not have something else to work on. The majority of my coworkers are considerably younger than me and don’t have a similar corporate background and I just am not fitting in. At all. Im actually starting to miss a cutthroat corporate environment!

      We have some life change coming up (moving) and once you get into summer job hunting gets to be a pain/non-existant. I am trying not to be frustrated and cranky but something needs to change soon. I figured I would get to working on outside interests and maybe start looking at a career change as this would be a good place to do it from if anything. But until then I really don’t want to be bored anymore!

  99. Batshua*

    I am freaking the heck out. I had a dental appointment yesterday that I tacked onto my lunch break. I swear I put in leave time for it, but for some reason it’s not in the system. I told my coworkers I would be out, but because it wasn’t in the leave system, my boss didn’t know. I put in the time as soon as I got back, but my boss marked me AWOL.

    Now she wants a meeting with my union rep.

    It was an honest mistake, and I don’t know what to say other than “I’m sorry I screwed up”.

    WHAT DO I DO?!

      1. Batshua*

        I already apologized pretty profusely yesterday because I don’t know how this went wrong and I was fairly mortified. It seems like this meeting with my union rep is a step towards a PIP or something. I feel like she thinks I don’t take attendance and timeliness seriously despite my continued struggle to slowly improve.

    2. animaniactoo*

      When did you put in the leave time? Did you check later to make sure it was marked correctly? This is the kind of thing you should always check a day in advance to make sure it’s registered properly.

      If you weren’t on top of it like that, you can go into this meeting with plan in hand that this is how you will make sure this situation does not happen again. But if you’ve had other attendance/timeliness issues, yes, this may be a PIP process, in which case you should accept that she has reason for it and that getting better slowly may not be enough even if it’s all you can do to do that much. So you accept the PIP and do your best to meet the terms of it. Your only goal should be making sure that the terms of the PIP are clearly outlined, such that there are measurable benchmarks to meet. I.e. it’s not “be on time more often” but rather “be on time 90% of the time”.

      1. Batshua*

        I could’ve sworn I put it in the week before, but I’ve had a lot of medical appointments lately, so maybe I got confused?

        I haven’t had any other attendance issues, but I’m having trouble getting to work on time. I’m usually no more than 5 minutes late, but they want us ready to go at 8, not here at 8. I keep tweaking my morning schedule, and it keeps working for a little while at a time.

        1. animaniactoo*

          To the first – Possible. It’s one of the reasons it’s a really good idea to doublecheck it the day before and make sure it’s there correctly as part of your process.

          If they’re strict about the 8 thing, have you tried planning to be there at 7:45? So that when you’re running 5 or 10 minutes late, you’re still on time?

          1. Batshua*

            I’ve been moving my schedule up 5 minutes at a time, because when I make big changes, it doesn’t work.

            If I give myself too much of a buffer, I end up running actually late, like 15 minutes late.

            I’m currently waking up between 6 and 6:15 to get to work by 7:50ish. My commute is less than 20 minutes. I’m not entirely sure where the failure point is.

            1. Batshua*

              I agree I need to aim for more like 7:40 or 7:45, since 7:50 isn’t always working. I’m just not sure what to DO to make that happen.

              Other problems impeding success: my sense of time is terrible, and it takes me a long time to be awake enough to be a functional person, even when I’m well-rested. I won’t be groggy so much as not well-oriented to reality, and not motivated to move.

              1. Newby*

                It takes me a while to get going in the morning as well. Some things that work for me:

                1) Set my alarm half an hour to an hour before I actually have to get up. When it goes off, I prop myself up on pillows and doze for a bit (my snooze is 10 minutes long).
                2) Set a second alarm across the room that goes off when you really really have to get up. If you are up earlier you can turn it off early. I consider it a failure when that one goes off. The goal is to be up before then and it is a failsafe.
                3) Build some things into your morning routine that can be eliminated if you are running late. I like to eat a leisurely breakfast and drink my coffee while watching a TV show. If I am running late, I get a breakfast sandwich and coffee to go.
                4) Do something at your desk that is not work when you first get there. If you get into your head that you need to be there at 7:30 and then you can read the next chapter of that book, look at the news, something else that you look forward to, it gives some incentive to be that early. If you are there later, you don’t get to do that thing and get right to work.

                You can set multiple alarms on your phone for each step. An alarm for when you need to be out of bed, an alarm for when you need to be dressed, an alarm for when you need to be done eating and and alarm for when you need to be out the door. That way you know if you are running late before you are irreparably behind.

                1. Batshua*

                  I’ve got multiple alarms going already. I think some part of my brain isn’t taking them seriously enough. I do have some stuff I can drop from my schedule, and I would prefer to arrive early enough to do something rather than just on time.

                  The newest fun problem is if I show up early, they now want us to start work early. Without being paid for it.

                  I used to be able to sit in the break room before work and read or color or do puzzles, and I’m not sure if that’s going to be doable anymore.

                  They’re totally dis-incentivizing us.

                2. animaniactoo*

                  Oh no no no no no. You are hourly? You do any work? You are paid for it. If they want you to do that as unpaid, you take that to the union rep/your state’s labor board.

                  But first, push back on it “Excuse me, I’m willing to clock in now, but you may not realize that it would be illegal for me to work while not clocked in. Would you prefer that I clock in and start now or wait to start at my scheduled time?” and see where that gets you.

                5. animaniactoo*

                  Ahhh, you’re under different rules then. Seriously, take this to your union rep. “I am being squeezed between a choice of being penalized for being 5 minutes later, or being required to start work early if I am 10 minutes early”.

                  Or… can you hang out in your car/nearby coffeeshop until time to hit your desk? Make that part of your planning? Because it’s a lot easier to get from the coffeeshop to your desk if you’re running late than out your door.

                6. Natalie*

                  Government employees have different overtime rules, but I believe they still need to be compensated for all time worked in some manner…

    3. irishdiva*

      that working without being paid = is not legal. can you sit out in your vehicle and read?

    4. Not So NewReader*

      What do you do?
      I think the core issue is that you are not on time for work. Any other misstep is going to tick your boss right off.

      Listening to your description here of your process to change your timing, I think the miscalculation comes in where her expectation was for you to fix the problem immediately. I am not sure how long it has been, it sounds like weeks and you have not conquered it yet. So yeah, she is going to feel that you are being lax. She meant fix it immediately.

      I have worked for bosses like this. Many bosses like this. And the solution is to get to work early and read in your car for a few minutes then walk in. I know you want this well timed thing where you know down to the minute what you need to do, but honestly, that does not work.
      Here’s why:
      Toilet overflows.
      Power loss.
      Car won’t start.
      Icy roads.
      Car crash across both lanes.
      Animal in the middle of the road.
      Car keys fell behind the sofa and you can find them.
      Cat decides to have kittens.
      You have nothing to make lunch with.

      I could go on for days. I think I have found every possible thing that can go wrong when trying to get ready for work in the morning. This is life. Change your expectations and things will go easier for you.

      Conversely, the answer may be that this is not the job for you. Maybe that is why you are having difficulty finding motivation here.

    5. Union Rep*

      I’m seeing this a bit late but in case the wise words of the commenters above haven’t already helped you calm down, here are my thoughts. Caveats: IANAL, your collective bargaining agreement almost certainly has relevant info that I can’t assess without looking at it, your company’s handbook or policy manual will be pertinent, there may be applicable past practices at your company, and your state may have relevant laws too. You don’t mention any previous formal discipline; I’ll assume that’s because you haven’t received any, which is good if it’s the case.

      Everything you described above falls into the general category of time and attendance issues. The good news is that for the purpose of discipline, those aren’t usually considered gross misconduct, so while the meeting may well be a disciplinary one, it’s not likely you’ll be fired. The bad news is that I would be inclined to think that this is, indeed, a disciplinary meeting. Check your CBA’s provisions for what that might mean. This will probably be under a section called “Progressive Disciplinary Procedure” or something to that effect.

      My best advice is for you to view this as a very serious but correctable issue. Be completely honest with your Union Rep about what happened. Treat her like a lawyer and give her all the info up front, and then the two of you can discuss your strategy for how you want to handle the case. Let her advise you of your options and ask for her ideas as to how/whether you should argue your side. Sometimes the best choice is to explain the mistake, apologize like crazy, and figure out how to fix the issue going forward. Sometimes other strategies are better. You will figure that out together.

      If you aren’t sure during the meeting about ANYTHING that’s happening, ask for a moment in private with your rep! That is totally normal and okay to do. (In addition to regular places, I have had sidebar meetings in break rooms, locker rooms, broom closets, bathrooms, stairwells, you name it. I’ve even asked managers to leave their own offices so I could speak with a union member privately.)

      Going forward, you need to make time and attendance a huge priority for yourself. Animaniactoo’s recommendations are excellent, but I would say you really need to be on time every single day with very, very few exceptions. If you have any other performance issues, you’ll want to get those cleaned up right away too. I hear you when you say that slower changes work best for you, but I think you may need to consider how you can expedite that timeline.

      If you need help making changes, your union rep can probably recommend resources, check with your company’s EAP, and consider talking to your shop steward or another senior employee about whether there’s anything else they can recommend for you.

      I know it is overwhelming and scary (and embarrassing, sometimes, too) but please try to view progressive discipline as an opportunity to fully understand where you need to improve and what you need to do to succeed. You would not believe the number of great employees who have disciplinary actions somewhere in their past. You can get past this and excel if you take the process seriously. You’re already reading AAM, so I’m positive you have your heart in the right place and just need some strategies for making your performance match your potential.

      Best of luck, and keep us posted!

      1. Union Rep*

        Ack, when I hit post and the page refreshed I saw that you’re being asked to work for free. Do not work for free and tell your rep about this! But also don’t let that get conflated in your head with the time & attendance problem – your performance issues are a separate matter and it’s crucial to get them fixed up ASAP.

  100. Rebecca*

    I’m happily fitting back in at my old job, after a 3 month stint at a job that just wasn’t the right fit for me. I was disappointed at first that I couldn’t car pool any longer, since my original car pool mates come to work and leave 30 minutes before I do, but I soon realized that my commute time is much shorter (24 minutes vs 42 minutes, yes, I timed it :), so in reality, I get home only about 12 minutes later than if I worked the earlier shift and carpooled. This is an unexpected surprise. And with warmer weather coming, getting home before 4:30 PM is going to be awesome!

    My stress level is non-existent and my workload is very manageable now that my old manager is gone. No more bellowing from office to office, yelling at us “everyone in my office, NOW” for endless unnecessary “meetings”, and I use the term loosely. It’s amazing how one bad manager can affect the workplace atmosphere so negatively, and when that negativity and stress is gone, how much it’s noticed! It’s so hard to explain unless you’ve lived and worked under that type of stress for so long. I guess it would be like living near a freeway and just getting used to the constant noise, and then moving to the country, and realizing that constant sound isn’t there any longer.

    That being said, I’m glad I left under good terms, documented everything for my coworkers, gave ample notice, and more importantly, was honest in my exit interview about why I was leaving. I think that lead to a lot of positive changes at our company.

  101. Daisy*

    I strongly suspect a co-worker, Jane, is at BEC stage with me and I’m not sure what to do about it.

    A couple of weeks ago, I inadvertently walked in on what was apparently a very personal conversation. Our office is made up of cubicles, and I saw my boss talking to Jane. He had a work-related document in his hand and I needed a quick answer about something, so I headed over to hopefully ask my question, get my answer, then leave. This is a common practice for our office (especially with my boss, Wakeen, because it’s incredibly difficult to get his attention). As I arrived, I greeted them, and Jane snapped at me that I was interrupting a private conversation and needed to leave. So I apologized and quickly left her cubicle.

    The following day, Wakeen apologized to me for Jane’s behavior. He felt Jane was out of line and was surprized by her snapping at me. Jane has barely acknowledged me since.

    While I would normally shrug my shoulders and let it go, Jane will be joining our team in a couple of months. Our work is such that we’ll need to communicate regularly, and it would be much easier if we get along. She’s also good friends with Wakeen outside of work.

    I don’t know if I’m reading too much into this, if Jane’s just annoyed from one interaction and will get over it when her personal stuff is resolved, or if she just doesn’t like me and I’m her BEC (there have been a couple of other signs). While I know I shouldn’t, I’m taking this very personally and am having a hard time maintaining my composure with these interactions.

    I’m looking for a job right now, but job searches take forever in my field so I’ll probably still be here when Jane joins my team.

    Any advice? Should I apologize to Jane again and explain that I won’t make the same mistake? Ignore it and hope I’m wrong? Talk to Wakeen? I’m not the most socially aware person, and I don’t want to make the situation worse.

    1. Graciosa*

      Ignore it.

      You checked with Wakeen, and he says you’re fine in the only incident Jane mentioned.

      If Jane has an issue, she needs to use her words and explain it to you (or your boss) so you can address it.

      The alternative is setting up a weird dynamic of you seeking to appease Jane without having done anything wrong. That’s a bad start to a relationship with another team member.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      Wow, Jane is … well, “overstepping here” is the kindest way to put it. When you approached them, Wakeen was the person who had the standing to tell you to come back later, not Jane. If Wakeen is the kind of boss who is self-aware enough to return and reassure you that you didn’t to anything wrong, I am hopeful that he told Jane a version, however abbreviated, of the following: “I understand your concerns about being overheard when Daisy approached us during our conversation yesterday. When you are discussing something sensitive with me but in the open office area, if you are concerned about being overheard should someone approach, you should stop speaking. That will be my cue to turn to the person approaching. Even if that person is not my direct report, *I* am still going to be the one to acknowledge and decide if the approaching employee can break into our conversation, *not you.* If the employee is one of my direct reports, then *I* will decide whether or not to address my report’s question, *not you.* Can you remember do that from now on?” However, if they’re friends outside of work, too, well, I guess there’s not much chance he addressed it.

      1. Daisy*

        Yeah, no idea what he may have said to her, if anything. I’ve been feeling increasingly isolated and sidelined at work, which has me super anxious to try and fix things, but I realize that this can backfire if I’m not exceedingly careful. Onward with the job hunt!

    3. Lily in NYC*

      Whatever you do, do not apologize again. You didn’t do anything wrong. You don’t want to lead to a dynamic where she feels she can act rudely towards you. Maybe she is embarrassed because she was having a difficult conversation and thinks you overheard something that makes her look bad. I would just act like nothing happened and don’t say anything to Wakeen unless she gets worse.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Stop apologizing, please. You did nothing wrong. If that was that private a convo they should have taken it to a meeting area. The boss is saying you are fine, decide to believe him.

      As far as, Jane is concerned, pretend it is the furthermost thing from your mind. Matter of fact, pretend that you have all but forgotten it. Be your usual self. Talk to her in a manner that shows you expect her to behave professionally.

      For you privately, realize that job hunting brings out all kinds of emotions. We can feel punchy. Ask yourself what your reaction would be if you knew you were staying at this job and Jane had to learn to live with you. I know any time I have job hunted things like this at work could fester in my brain. Job hunting murkies the waters.

      The easiest way out is to decide to be professional and expect the same of Jane.

  102. Can't Sit Still*

    My manager doesn’t seem to get the concept of giving notice. Or understand the timing of counter-offers, for that matter. She told me earlier this week that she was going to make me an offer in 4 months, one I wouldn’t be allowed to say no to! (I feel multiple exclamation points might be in order here.) I don’t understand what she thinks that will accomplish? And why 4 months? I don’t really think she will, she has made and broken many promises to me, but it’s just so strangely specific this time.

    The one thing that has made me feel sad about leaving, but confirms that leaving is the right thing to do, is all of the people who have told me that I treated them so well, some saying even better than they deserved (!) for their role. I treat everyone the way I would like to be treated, mostly just common courtesy. That shouldn’t be rare, and it wasn’t when I started working here.

    1. animaniactoo*

      “I’m sorry, I’m looking for an immediate change, so I won’t be here in 4 months to make a counter-offer to”.

      I mean, uh what?

      “I’ll be working somewhere else, but I’ll take a look at it when you’re ready to move on that.”

      I hope life is good where you’re going and you don’t have to deal with this kind of nonsense.

      1. Can't Sit Still*

        Right? My last day is next week, I am starting New Job in 2 weeks. It seems like it will be a great fit for me in all respects and I’m really excited about the opportunity. New Manager is reported to be very busy, but still a good manager.

        1. SophieChotek*

          Congrats on new job! and I’m sure your colleagues will miss you if they are telling you that you have treated them well. Hope your new job is good.

        2. animaniactoo*

          Expect a phone call on the following Monday: “CSS? Is everything okay? You didn’t show up for work today.”

      1. Can't Sit Still*

        Yeah, that was really weird, and a direct quote. I’m not her child or her pet or a piece of malfunctioning office equipment, but I guess that’s how she sees me.

    3. Pineapple Incident*

      OMG run so far and fast away from your terrible manager. This is not cool, and it doesn’t even make sense!?

    4. PollyQ*

      Just to check, have you given written/email notice? That should (hopefully) give a little more weight to your announcement.

      Also, anyone else think of The Godfather? “I’m gonna make her an offer she can’t refuse!”

  103. Sibley*

    So, suggestions would be helpful. It’s goal setting time at my work, and I have to come up with something that would help me work on being more “comfortable” training others. I have to do a ton of training informally, with a bit being formal. While it goes well, I really hate having to do it most of the time and it can really put me in knots.

    Taking into consideration my current long term goals (stay where I am basically), my manager wants me to work on decreasing the knots. Public speaking itself isn’t so much the problem, it really is training. Ideas?

      1. Sibley*

        I don’t want to give people bad information, or not be able to answer their questions. Things that I know cold and can do really well work out fine. Simple things are easier of course.

        When I feel like I’m not getting through to someone, that frustrates me because I want them to understand and it just goes downhill from there. People who are combative or resistant to what I’m trying to explain to them are really tough as well (I’m an auditor, and there’s an aspect of training the auditee).

        1. animaniactoo*

          Okay, I’m a sometime tutor, so I have stuff that relates here.

          1) When you don’t know an answer, be clear and upfront about that. “Hmmm. Good question. I’m not sure, and I don’t want to give you the wrong answer, so let me check on that and get back to you about it in an hour/tomorrow/etc.”

          2) Sometimes you won’t get through to someone. There are people who will just never grasp a specific concept. Sometimes, they won’t get it unless it’s explained in a specific kind of way. Remember that they are ending up just as frustrated as you are, because they *want* to understand and are likely feeling like an idiot for not being able to. Take a deep breath. Back up. “Can you explain to me what’s confusing about what I’m telling you/instruction you/this information?” – root out where they’re confused, and it will help.

          They are most likely NOT going to volunteer it, and may even deny they are confused because they think that admitting the confusion is a mark against them (and to be fair, it can be if there’s enough confusion and depending on how basic the concept is). But you need to break and stop trying to explain and get them to engage with you about where they are so you figure out how to get over there and bring them to where you are. If you’re sure they’re not getting it, and they deny it, call them out on that. Calmly, but firmly “Excuse me, I know that you’re not getting this because you did X instead of Y again (or whatever makes you believe they’re not getting it).” “This will go a lot more smoothly if you’re upfront with me and I don’t want you to do the wrong thing and then keep trying to do that because it got stuck in your head by accident from doing it that way too many times. Work with me, okay?”

          3) People who are combative or resistant. Patience. It’s scary for them. Because it’s change or too much knowledge at one time, or something. Here’s where you can engage them again. “I’m asking you to try it my way and see how it goes.” or “Talk to me about why you don’t want to do it this way”. It’s possible they have a valid reason for not wanting to transition, and you may be able to tailor the process or the explanation a little bit so that it becomes something “understandable” for them, etc.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Everything animaniactoo said and adding a couple of things.

          I have trained a lot of people. I have trained people who told me they could not possibly learn what I am training them on. They learned.

          Be able to explain things a couple different ways.
          Make sure they know what the terms are. If you are using words that they do not know they will become frustrated.
          As often as possible have them put their hands into the work. You do an example then have them do an example. Many people learn hands on, just telling them is not enough.
          Be willing to answer questions. Here’s the tricky part about questions: People can get stuck on one particular part. If they don’t get that part squared away in their minds, nothing else falls together. Watch their faces. Are they having “ah-ha” moments or are they starting to cry? Double check yourself, are you answering the actual question or are you answer the question you THINK they asked?

          If people are mildly resistant, just ignore it and hope that you will give them enough info to over come that resistance.

          I am not sure what you mean by combative. If people are hitting you, then it’s over. Report them, get management involved, etc.
          If you mean they yell at you, that is not acceptable either. Check with your boss to see if yelling should be included in your audit report or if she prefers you take other steps. Develop plans for how you will handle these extreme behaviors. Don’t just muddle through and hope for the best. Get solid action plans of what to do and go over these plans with your boss.

          Now. My 2 cents.
          I spent 7 weeks with an auditor. I seriously considered wandering off into the wilderness and living out my days there.

          A few tips.
          If a person tells you that today is the busiest day of the month do not hand her a list of 87 things that she must look up immediately.

          Do not ask her question about things that happened 10 years before she started working there.

          Do not ask the same question repeatedly, understand that the person is falling further and further behind for each hour she spends with you.

          Do not expect a person who has been at their job for a few months and their boss who has been at her job for perhaps six months to have any real understanding of what is going on. Especially when training consists of reading hundred and hundreds of pages of material with out getting paid to read it.

          If the upper echelon people disagree with the auditing department that conflict will trickle down to you and the group you are auditing. Recognize this as it unfolds. Don’t expect people to change what they are doing when the issue is a bone of contention between your higher ups and their higher ups. Just say, “our bosses will have to figure out what they want.”

          And something else. A great many people spend a chunk of their day listening to how they have failed at their jobs. An auditor can just be one more voice echoing that same failure message. People get tired, it gets to be about two hours before quitting time, wind down. Realize that they have had enough for today, just like you. Finish up some loose ends, line up what you will do tomorrow.

    2. Tuckerman*

      I have found that having a very clear, detailed step by step outline of the training session is very helpful. When I hire new staff, I plan the first 3 shifts down to 15 minute increments. Being organized goes a long way. For a half hour training session, you might break it down in 5 minute increments.

      1. Beansidhe*

        I heartily second Not So New Readers comment in that having multiple ways to explain a process is crucial. Just asking how a trainee learns best is important. Some people are visual, some are hands on, some are note-takers. Knowing how they learn best is invaluable.

        Secondly cross applying explanations tailored to the trainee can make all the difference. For example in one instance I had to show a older worker how to use google. He’d been hired with the understanding that he was computer literate, but in reality wasn’t. So, no problem, What he did understand finally was that Google is just like a phone book. Just because he asked a question in google it was like finding the “P’s” for pizza, now he had to see which listing was most applicable. It took a little bit for him to grasp the internet wasn’t magic, and he’d have to read some of his search results. Just like Ad’s in a phone book. Heheheheh. But that explanation he “got” immediately.

        Same with a boss of mine. He wasn’t seeing the “cost” involved with merchandise ready to ship for an order and sitting because the purchaser was overtly slow in arranging pick-up. We need that space for new orders and it’s definitely lost money for a shipment to malinger. Again, I fished around in my brain what would immediately make sense to him. The analogy for him was, our space is just like a restaurant. This spaces need to “turn and burn” for us to maximize profit and I asked him to watch Bar Rescue, or any other similar shows on HGTV. He “got it” right away that altho our business is different those “spaces” have a defined cost to them and we are losing money because in a week we could have used that particular space for 3 other shipments. So HUGE monetary losses.

        With a trainee the more you can cross apply what you are doing with something they CAN understand and make a personal connection with, the easier they learn.

        Also showing them how each part fits together in the work stream, you need to do this because downstream it prevents this, this and this, and we need it because of XYZ giving them a more complete picture of how what they are learning “fits” can usually bring more importance to the task you are teaching and gives them a better comfort level with “why” these steps/tasks are so vital.

        Training someone how you’d of liked to be trained also goes a long way in helping you forget your own discomfort. What would have helped you when you were new? What would have made things easier for you had your trainer done it? Sorry this is a little long, it’s just that the easier you make training for the trainee and the easier for them to grasp the information the better a co-worker you have and the happier a Boss.

  104. The OG Anonsie*

    Re: stinky essential oils in the office, I finally caved and put a Salonpas patch on my janked up neck/shoulder at work today. I worked from home yesterday to lay on a heating pad and etc and it’s somewhat better today, but still bad enough that I was dramatically less productive than I should have been this morning. I stuck a patch on a few minutes ago and it feels so much better now, I’m getting back into my deadline work and it’s a huge relief.

    So now I guess I wait and see if anyone is upset by the smell. I hope not, because I really really need these things sometimes.

    1. animaniactoo*

      I suspect that needing them “sometimes” will go over a lot better than “uses them all day every day”. fwiw.

      1. Sibley*

        Agreed. If I have one day of allergies/asthma it’s not fun but I can cope. Everyday? Nope.

        1. The OG Anonsie*

          This turned out pretty funny, actually: No one could smell it. I kept asking if I was bothering anyone and everyone so far has said that their allergies are already so bad (it’s a gross time of year here) that they can’t smell anything anyway. So I was preempted by nature on this one.

          1. Woman of a Certain Age*

            It’s good that no one could smell it.

            Back in the day “Preparation H” had a very distinctive odor. I gave certain older employees a bit of a pass when they seemed crabby.

  105. Charlie Q*

    Y’all. I just found out that my boyfriend is one of Those Interviewees. He’s only ever worn jeans and a polo to interviews (because he “doesn’t have anything nicer”). He has often succumbed to the very pressure-y bad interview advice from his father (i.e., once he emailed HR after an interview to ask how he “scored” and where he went wrong). It is no longer a surprise to me that he hasn’t gotten any of the full-time jobs at his work that he’s interviewed for. (He’s part time now.)

    I’ve corrected the “email HR” advice and insisted he buy dress pants at a minimum, but now I feel like he doesn’t have a clue about interviews at all. He’s got one coming up soonish, and since I can’t ask him to read the entire AAM archives before then, what are some key posts you think I can send him to at least establish a baseline of good interview behavior?

    1. animaniactoo*

      If you look down the right hand side, you’ll find categories you can direct him to “interviewing” and “bad interview behavior”. Between those two categories, there are only about 400 posts, and the titles or brief skim usually tell you if it’s a specific question or broader general advice that would be good as the first thing to read up on.

    2. Morning Glory*

      Does he have any professional experience? Is he just clueless, or also pushing back on your advice? This is hard for me to imagine.

      Alison has the archives divided up by subject, so I recommend he read as many in the job seeking category as possible!

      1. Charlie Q*

        He’s only held this one part-time job since college (so… 5ish years?) and is more clueless than anything. Plus his dad is REALLY pushy and wildly misinformed. So he listens to my advice (thank goodness) but I’m so flustered that he’s been so off the mark that I didn’t even know where to start. I’ll direct him to some of the AAM categories, thanks!

    3. Pineapple Incident*

      Alison’s free interview guide is a breeze to read and offers some really great tips! I read it before I interviewed in December for the job I started about a month ago- and it was such a good refresher on good interview etiquette and question suggestions/prompts to practice.

      Good for you trying to help your boyfriend correct this stuff- it’s hard to break such bad habits once you learn them, especially if his parents are super-pushy about this kind of advice.. Good luck to you, and to your guy on his interviews :)

  106. BigSigh*

    Just had a tough convo with my former boss.

    I’m an editor and work closely with production. Before the publications are finalized though, I send a copy to a few people, included her, to review it and send back any errors they notice or change suggestions. I chose not to make two of her suggestions recently so, when she saw the next draft, she went directly to production to get them to make the changes.

    Thankfully production refused and brought the changes back to me for approval. I had to have a closed door convo with my former boss explaining that I had a reason for rejecting those changes, and also that I don’t have to explain my reasons to her, which is why all changes need to go through me.

    What makes this particularly fun is that THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN OUR PROCESS, even when she was my boss.

    *insert gif of me throwing up my hands in annoyance

  107. Jumanji*

    Any advice on how best to approach my higher ups? I’ve been charged with producing a website on a highly technical topic. I the project manager coordinating with our staff of internal subject matter experts, the tech vendor, and the leadership team. The leadership team has spent the past year and a half talking with various organizations, leaders in the field about how much of a great website we are going to launch this year. I did an inventory of what *actual* content we have ready to go and upload. I realized that content-wise, our offerings are very paltry. We don’t really have a lot of substantive content at this time as far as ready to go, usable, and easily converted for the web type of content. We have major content gaps in short that will take moving hell or high water to fill to meet a launch date four months from now. Advice on communicating this info to my boss and my boss’s bosses who seem to have been oblivious to how little content actually exists? I get the impression they have overpromised the project and hyped it up to the funder to an exaggerated degree.

    1. Undine*

      Ask? “the only content I’ve been able to find is X and Y. Is there somewhere web-ready we can get A, B, and C from? Who’s been working on that?”

      1. Jumanji*

        Thanks for the feedback! I’ve spent the past few months subtly and not so subtly reminding the team and leadership we do not have content A, B, and C despite them publicizing the site as being built with the goal of being a repository for content A,B,C as well as X and Y. These content will need to be obtained from external sources and that takes time and coordination and so far no one among the team has done a systematic or thorough job of trying to obtain that content (I can’t do it because it requires being a topic expert as well as being the official contact with the external partner). My big fear is we build a site — a fabulous site with terrific functionality — but with a paltry offering of crucial content. Content wasn’t the only shortfall I have identified with this project. We started out on the hole too in terms of budget and manpower and I had to advocate strongly to get the needed funding and manpower to make the project feasible.

  108. JobSeeker017*

    LinkedIn view turned into interview invitation

    After applying for a position and seeing one of the hiring managers take a peek at my LinkedIn profile a few days later, I was self-conscious and couldn’t figure out what prompted the look up of my professional social media profile. Just a few days later, I received a phone call from HR inviting me to interview in mid-March.

    I am a combination of relieved and puzzled as to LinkedIn’s role in the decision, but I am thrilled nonetheless.

    As an aside, thank-you, Alison, for including questions about LinkedIn this week. I felt so much less alone learning other job seekers had similar experiences.

    1. H.C.*

      I wouldn’t read too much into it. Sometimes they want to verify your resume’s accuracy (i.e. not embellishing too much – since resumes are tailored to specific openings whereas LI are more general purpose), sometimes they want to see if your LinkedIn offer more information/insight that’s not on your resume (e.g. if you included work samples in your LI), and sometimes they’re just plain curious.

      Good luck on the interview!

      1. JobSeeker017*

        H.C.:

        Thanks for the explanation and for the show of support for the interview.

        Have a great weekend!

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Linkedin exists so that potential employers can take a look at you. I used it to look at people applying for a position at my company. I found one person had a different job title and another one had left his most recent position completely off his resume. I look at the profiles because they often cover more than what is present on the resume.

      1. JobSeeker017*

        Master Bean Counter:

        Thank you for your comment.

        I disagree with you about the rationale behind LinkedIn’s existence. From my perspective, LinkedIn is a professional Facebook social media tool that allows for users to connect with current and former colleagues, companies with which they have or want to work, and promote their own skill sets. It’s not primarily what I use for my job search strategy.

        The issue I have is why I’m tailoring resumes, cover letters, and taking time to complete detailed online applications if HR or the hiring manager will disbelieve what I have shared and will check a social media profile created with a different goal before contacting me. The entire process leaves me feeling mistrusted and disrespected.

        It’s unfortunate that you’ve had experiences with deceptive job candidates. I understand how such an experience could make you more diligent, but your experience is not the experience of every hiring manager.

        Well, I suppose we must agree to disagree on this point. Still, I appreciate your taking time to comment.

  109. I am a tailors apprentice*

    So this week is the start of Lent. I am a non-practicing Catholic who never really bought into the whole “eating meat on Fridays during lent sends you to hell” thought process. I work in a really small office and the majority of my co-workers are practicing, fairly devout Catholics. (Ex: they all went to church together on Wednesday before work to get ashes, they have pictures of the pope at their desks, they read prayerbooks together every day). They are aware that I am a Catholic (it came up in conversation several years ago). Last year I went through Lent being judged for anything I ate on Fridays that contained meat. It was awful. Well, this year my cycle has fallen on the first Friday of lent and I am craving red meat. My hubby knows me well and just called to let me know that he’s bringing me a roast beef sandwich for lunch. Any advice on what to say to the ridiculous comments that I know are coming my way? It’s a small office and while I am not friends with any of these people, I don’t want to offend or upset them too badly. My initial reaction would be “How is what I’m eating your business?” but that comes off as kind of snarky and overly mean.

    1. Temperance*

      I think they’re being annoying and rude for getting on your case about what you’re eating.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I’d say it’s more than annoying and rude — it’s religious harassment, just like it would be if the OP weren’t Catholic. It’s not okay to harass a coworker into religious observance. OP, shut this down — “I don’t observe Lent, and I don’t want to talk about my faith at work.” Period.

    2. Nan*

      Ohhhh, recovering Catholic here :) Can I come eat with you?

      Tell them the Church considers a beaver a fish and ok to eat on Fridays, because it lives in the water. Ergo, a cow is also a fish, because it can swim. Smile, and take a big ol’ bite of that sammich!!!

      Tell them a church that looks the other way about child abuse but defends a roast beef sandwiches has it’s priorities way out of whack. And that you’ll abstain from meat on Fridays when the Pope starts cracking down on abuse. Then smile and take a big ol’ bite.

      Ask them why they are wearing jewelry or mixed fabrics? Why are they eating lobster? Ask why a woman (presuming some of these people are female) is trying to teach you what to eat. All forbidden in their holy book.

      Fight ridiculousness with ridiculousness.

      1. Temperance*

        Come sit next to me, lol.

        My husband celebrates what he calls “Double Meat Fridays” during Lent, because his grandmother is such a nag about not eating meat. She got on my case about it exactly once, and I don’t even like meat and have never been Catholic. If someone at work did it, I might bite them.

      2. animaniactoo*

        WARNING: IF YOU ARE SUPER-RELIGIOUS AND LIKELY TO GET OFFENDED, STOP READING THIS COMMENT NOW.

        One day, a Jewish family moves into a Catholic neighborhood. They manage to get along fairly well until lent comes around.

        The Jewish neighbors grill out back and the smell of meat wafting through the neighborhood is torturing everyone else.

        They meet and come up with a plan. They go to the Jewish neighbor and ask them to convert to Catholicism. The neighbor agrees! He goes to be baptized and the priest sprinkles water on his head and says “Born a Jew, raised a Jew, now a Catholic”. The Catholic neighbors go off happy, the problem is solved. Life is good.

        But! Next Friday, once again, the smell of cooking meat is permeating the neighborhood. The good Catholics all rush to the new Catholic’s home to remind him that he can’t cook or eat meat on Friday now! Whereupon, he pulls out a spritz bottle, mists the meat on the grill with a little water and says “Born a cow, raised a cow, now a fish”.

        (moral of the story, get a cup of water and tell the co-workers it’s a fish.)

        1. Spoonie*

          Yes. Convert your sandwich to Catholicism. Perfect.

          I am trying so hard not to crack up over here.

      3. Lily in NYC*

        Tell them you are sick of winter and want to go get warm in hell.
        Or realistically, just say “thanks for your concern”. or “noted”. Basically, just blow them off.

    3. Rebecca*

      Eat the sandwich, and don’t feel guilty. If your coworkers observe Lent, and you don’t, you shouldn’t worry about it. Maybe it’s time to remind them that what you eat for lunch is your business, it doesn’t affect your work performance, so it shouldn’t be an issue.

    4. animaniactoo*

      “Yes. I’m a sinner.”

      okay, not really, that probably won’t go over well.

      “I would really appreciate it if you don’t judge me for this, particularly as you know I’m non-practicing at this time*. We all find our own path. I wish you well with yours.”

      *If they don’t know you’re non-practicing, leave out that part, but bring it up sometime after lent.

    5. E*

      Politely and firmly tell them that comments about your lunch choice or religion have no place at work.

    6. The Cosmic Avenger*

      “How is what I’m eating your business?” is quite polite about it in my book, since what you eat is none of their damn business! I would be very tempted to say as flatly as possible “People like you are why I’m no longer a Catholic. Please stop harassing me about non-work-related issues.”

      1. Newby*

        This is perfect. I am Catholic and think it is extremely rude to chide anyone for eating meat, whether they are catholic or not. I have occasionally reminded my sister that it was Friday when I saw her making bacon, but that is only because I know that she does avoid meat on Fridays in Lent. Even that was simply a “Do you realize it is Friday?” question.

        1. Stinky Socks*

          ^^This. Also practicing Catholic, and it’s not anybody’s job to be the meat police on Fridays. I’d give a once-off *reminder* to a family member or friend that I knew was intending to obseve Lent, simply because people forget and it would legitimately be a reminder. Beyond that… Sheesh. This is the textbook way to *not* invite people back into the fold…

    8. really*

      If comfortable with this and it wouldn’t cause even more questions just tell them you have a medical reason to eat meat. My children went to Catholic schools a boy in my son’s grade has some type of medical condition that requires extra protein. No one had an issue with what he ate at all.

      1. Batshua*

        Yeah, I would definitely go with “I’m not eating this to offend you, this food is for my health”. Anyone who’s gonna give you crap about that has no dang compassion.

  110. Tabby Baltimore*

    How do you use Outlook’s task manager feature? It’s getting a little more difficult to keep up, and I’m thinking I really need to buckle down and learn to use it more. (Please don’t suggest other applications; I work in fed govt and have no hope of getting an alternative.)

    1. animaniactoo*

      It’s actually fairly simple. Create a new task, and select a start date and a due date for it. There will be an option for a reminder which you might set as 2 days before the task is due.

      The main thing is how you setup your tasks – if you set up too many steps under one task, you’ll lose the benefit of having a deadline attached to make sure some pieces are done sooner than others.

      Once you have a bunch of tasks, you can choose to sort by due date, task name, etc. much the same as you can sort the mail view. You can also hit the red exclamation mark to note which ones are priority tasks over others with deadlines that can’t be moved, etc.

      1. Kerr*

        Wait, you can set up steps under tasks in Outlook?! My world may have just changed for the better.

  111. KR*

    So I got a job offer last week. The people who coordinate the onboarding (a recruiting company) are across the country and my new manager is several hours away though my job is local. So all week I’ve been in the library printing and scanning in documents, doing paperwork, and so on. Since no one was here to watch me sign my I9 I had to get a notary to sign it (15$ + 7$ for expedited shipping). They require a background check and I worked in another state that requires a background check authorization form…. That requires a notary to sign that it is definitely me signing the paper and they want me to mail the paper in again. Would it be okay for me to ask for reimbursement for the notary costs? The way it works is that I’m classified as a temporary worker (possibly a contractor I’m not sure) for the first 6 months until they hire me as a permanent employee. If a reimbursement is appropriate what’s a good script I can use to ask for it via email? I’ve been unemployed for about 2 months and don’t even start my job until mid March which means I probably won’t see a paycheck until April, so 40$ for onboarding costs is kind of a lot. We’re using our tax return to cover a lot of our bills this month as it is.

    1. Undine*

      You could ask the recruiting company about the upcoming costs. Tell them that the last time it cost you $22, and is there anyone you can work with to notarize it and/or could they reimburse you. It’s possible, for example, that they could arrange something with their bank — as a business, they might be able to find an entity they already have a relationship with to do the notarization. If they can’t, it’s certainly reasonable to *ask* about reimbursement, and see what they say, with the understanding that they might say no.

      1. KR*

        Problem solved – I’m on a military base and the legal assistance office on base was able to notarize it for me. Thank you though.

    2. JayeRaye*

      I see you found a solution, but for anyone else in this situation check with your bank or credit union! I work at a bank and half of my branch are certified notaries. We notarize for both clients and non-clients, and we do it for free.

      Fun fact, in some states a notary stamp is all you need to get married. I’ve notarized many a marriage license in the last few years.

  112. Newton Geizler*

    Hi everyone!
    I work in an academic lab that accepts co-op students for full time positions about twice a year. All of our students come from the same school, which is also where I received my undergrad degree. We’ve just gotten our next batch of resumes for our fall program, and a lot of them are poorly formatted or over one page. (In my industry, you don’t go over 1 page for a resume unless you have a Masters or a PhD). My question is this: should I give feedback to these students? Or should I contact the school departments? Or just leave it alone?

    I only graduated last year. I remember my advisor went over all of our resumes with us before we could send them out to employers, but I don’t know if that’s something that varies by major. Any advice is appreciated!

    1. Manders*

      I think if they’re all poorly formatted in the same way, then it’s probably a department problem and you can go directly to that department to give feedback. If each one is wonky in a unique way, it’s probably just people new to the working world, and it would be kind to send them a link to a site that gives examples of resumes formatted the right way–or maybe even include that link in your job posting, if you have control over it.

      (PS: Your screenname is awesome. The first cosplay I ever made was Newt!)

    2. Newby*

      Contact whoever at the school runs the program. Let them know that they need to give more instruction to the students applying since the resumes are too long and poorly formatted.

  113. dawbs*

    I am so annoyed.

    I know when you leave the interview/the resume/whatever, you can’t do anything else and you get to move on mentally from the job…BUUUuuut, I had an interview (which I did while sick–but not contagious. ANd I made my apologies, but, from experience, these people do not allow you to reschedule an interview) 2 weeks ago. I was told I would hear something this past monday, regardless. Radio silence. (Things in life itself and my part-time-starvation-wages job have been more than hectic, so I haven’t called since my thank-you email)

    There are several red flags about this workplace–they are set in their ways, they don’t normally hire from outside for this level of position, the pay is rather dismal, and they always seem to want people to start immediately and interview immediately, regardless of the interviewee’s schedule and obligations.

    But, they’re the only game in town. It’s a very niche industry (think of them being like the local sports stadium–that’s not the industry, but it’s close enough)–you either work for them, or you drive 2 or 3 hours away for your only other chance to work in that field.

    The education & experience & job requirements they want (for an extremely low paid job) are really specific–there can’t be THAT many of us in the area who are kick-butt qualified for it…which makes me extra annoyed not to have gotten a ‘to bad, so sad’ form email.
    Guess I’ll go eat worms.

    1. JMegan*

      Aw, that does suck. I hate when employers don’t follow up after an interview. I hope you get something else soon!

    2. dawbs*

      And…right on cue, here is the “hey, thanks for your patience. We’ll let you know in a few days” email, a week late.
      ARGH. I had gotten myself all resigned too! Now I’m balancing resigned and hopeful. I hope.

  114. Squeeble*

    Had a weird experience earlier this week. A woman who worked here when I started left for a new job about six months ago for a financial services agency. On Monday, she called the switchboard, got connected to me, and tried to sell me on her services. I politely turned her down, but I was kind of appalled. I asked around and apparently she’s done this to several other people here as well.

    1. Manders*

      What is it with financial services? I mentioned to a casual acquaintance who worked as a financial planner that maybe I should see a planner in the future, and he called me over and over on my personal phone during work hours until I told him to cut it out. There must be some intense pressure from management at those agencies to follow every lead even if you’re stepping way over the line of socially acceptable behavior.

      1. Squeeble*

        That’s what I’m guessing, that the bosses are really pushing for staff to sniff out every possible sale right now. I think that stuff backfires a lot–even if I do need those kinds of services in the future, I’m going to go with someone who isn’t being pushy with me.

    2. Lily in NYC*

      Wow, that is ballsy! I had a coworker who tried to get me to buy Xmas wrapping paper from her kid on her first day of work. I was flabbergasted. And she hated me the entire time she worked here because I think I might have given her quite the side-eye when I said no.

    3. JustFoundThisPlaceLastWeek*

      I try to have at least some sympathy for someone in such a position. My father ended up with a number of “sales” jobs, including ones with cold-calling lousy leads and bothering family and friends. They were all disasters. When you can’t find anything better, and still have to pay the bills and feed the kids, some really bad jobs can suck you in.

      Sympathy, yes, but not business. I get off the line as quickly as possible and let they spend their time one someone else.

    4. Beansidhe*

      Most companies have a No Soliciting policy, I’d ask HR about this and make them aware it’s occurred from a former employee.

  115. Exterminate Exterminate*

    I could use some advice on a cover letter. I’ve been reading the archives and taking Alison’s advice, but here’s my biggest problem- I work in Pest Control. I understand that nearly everyone’s first thought is “eww” and second is it’s not really professional. This is a multi-million dollar company with 148 full time employees. I have been the executive assistant to the 3 owners and in charge of payroll and benefits for 8 years. How do I get that across right away in a cover letter? I don’t mind being self-deprecating, I have a sense of humor about working in pest control. I would appreciate any advice, thank you.

    1. Manders*

      It sounds like you’re not actually involved in going to clients’ homes and eliminating pests personally, so I wouldn’t worry too much about any stigma there. But if you want to include a humorous line, how about: “The only pests I deal with daily are (payroll errors/accounting discrepancies/conflicting calendar events/etc) and I’m proud to say I’ve eliminated them all.”

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        Ooooooh I like this suggestion- a good way to get whoever’s reviewing just a little extra interested in your application, and likely to keep reading if it’s in the first paragraph

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I wouldn’t have any stigma with an application from someone who worked with a pest control company. I know the big time companies from their commercials and I would simply identify them as a big employer. Honestly, I wouldn’t worry about it. Even if it was an exterminator applying for a position as a mechanic, I wouldn’t think twice.

  116. ExceptionToTheRule*

    I’m looking for advice on finding a mentor. I’m a mid-career, middle-aged woman & am really struggling with finding someone to look to for management advice/ideas in coaching my staff. The biggest issue is that I’m one of the most senior people in my field, in my location. Anybody have suggestions?

    1. CM*

      Maybe look to professional associations, or your peers? You could think of it less as finding a mentor and more as becoming part of a mentoring circle where you could all share advice and ideas with each other.

  117. TheSkrink*

    How do I discourage staff from giving me bribes and gifts??

    I work in IT in a staff support position, and people often ‘joke’ about bribing me with liquor/coffee/food/etc. I directly tell people that this is not necessary/welcome and I am happy to assist as it is my job. But what to do when they actually show up with the physical gift, or as this last time, send a gift card to your email right after you have politely but firmly insisted that you don’t take gifts?

    I feel SO awkward, and also it is important in my position to avoid the appearance of favoritism or seeming that my services can be ‘bought.’

    1. CM*

      I think you need to keep reiterating that you have a policy of not accepting gifts to avoid the appearance of impropriety, and consistently refusing or returning gifts that you receive. It leads to awkward moments, but I think being firm and consistent is the only way to get this to die out.

    2. Sualah*

      Are they trying to “bribe” you or just show appreciation? If it’s the latter, is there anything you would like– or at least tolerate–that someone can do to show their appreciation? Example: emailing your boss to say how much you helped them out or fill out a survey. If I’d thought you were really helpful and wanted to show my appreciation, I could see saying I would bring you cookies or something–not to bribe, but because I truly appreciated your work. If you replied back, “Hey, I don’t accept gifts–if I do a good job, let my boss know/fill out the service survey/whatever” then I would definitely do that. But I would feel better that you really did know I appreciated your work.

      1. SophieChotek*

        +1 to this.
        (And I am assuming when you say ‘bribe’ it’s not like friends in your office just bringing you an unexpected treat like “hey I was grabbing coffee, and I thought I would grab you one too”) — I would be mortified if someone thought I was trying to bribe the. And like Sualah said, an email to your supervisor might carry more weight (i.e. in reviews, future raises, performance indicators, etc.)

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Try once and if they insist, tell them that you are very sorry but you cannot accept gifts for ethics reasons.
      The body language that goes with this is keeping your hands at your side. Refuse to reach out for what they have in their hands. If they leave it on your desk/work space, say again, “I am asking you to remove that as it will get me in trouble.”

  118. Anxa*

    Last week I posted with frustrations on my current work model, and how the pay system makes it really hard for me to do my best work. Among the problems were:
    -Having administrative duties I couldn’t squeeze into my paid hours, and having paid hours I could really take advantage due to location/time
    -Feeling like I had to hustle a lot for little payoff
    -Feeling nomadic and invisible
    -Having a really low cap on my hours

    Well, I have decided that this job will probably never be a good fit do it’s structure. But some things are looking up:
    -Turns out I can work double the time per pay period I thought I could. Which is actually more in line with what I thought I was signing on for. I’m going to ask them if they think demand warrants adding an extra day to my schedule (but they just hired some new people, so probably not).
    -From now on, I’ll also be claiming some portion of my hours for cancellations with short notice.
    -I have an ILL book that came through so I can get some things done during my ‘coverage’ days
    -I’ve decided not to be so paranoid about working off the clock. Spending a few hours a week investing in my professional development (things that I could get away with skipping, that I can benefit from personally, and that I can bring with me to other jobs) is probably okay. Plus, because of the nature of my work, it could just as well be studying or learning new skills on my personal time. As far as administrative stuff, I’d rather work a few extra hours a week getting a system set up that gets me more paid hours, than rush through it and end up sitting at my workplace with more no-shows and not getting paid.

    I’ve also had a chance to think about what’s really been bothering me, and it’s not just the work structure:
    -I’m not assertive enough and I’m far too earnest and I know this holds me back in a lot of ways. I don’t feel very prissy, but I’m always worried I’m the weirdo that’s trying to toe the line and I’m far too serious.For example, my coworker is quite well-liked and very, very different from me. I’ve tried to find some common ground with him and at the end of the day, we both are very enthusiastic about our work and care quite a lot about our subject matter. That said, he is much more charismatic and sells himself much better and grabs so many new clients. So let’s say we’re in our center doing scheduled hours. Most people who he is and seek him out, then leave when they just see me. He’ll ask them when else they can meet and get new clients, where I lose them as soon as I direct them to our system to do things by the book.
    -So even though I am very serious when it hurts me, I don’t think I’m good at being by-the-books in a way that helps, and I have an idealist and cynical streak that’s hard to squash. It’s not exactly a secret that the teaching and academic support staff are some of the least valued workers in higher ed. Sometimes I catch myself not making any excuses for the system anymore or saying things like “well it would be nice if we could just…” and “you would think…”
    -The best thing for me is to spread out my hours to fill the days I’m at work. No sense in having a group at 10am and a group at 3pm only working 2 hours if I can stretch that out. But by doing that, I’m not being a good steward of our funding. Also, that uses up clients’ allotted hours (our service is free to students, but limited). I miss my old model were I was paid so long as I was there, and I made it my mission to add value whenever possible, and students weren’t penalized for being regulars.
    -I talked to my SO and I am going to work on not feeling as bad about the money. We’ll be talking a lot more in the upcoming weeks about how realistic it is for me to ever have a full-time career and letting go of some of the should thinking and panic. I turn 31 next week at 29 I was hellbent on getting a career by 30, and at 30 I felt like it could be the year my life changes, and now looking down 31 I’m starting to panic and it’s not helping. I know I need to be less impatient and not expect to just be handed an opportunity without working for it.
    -Yesterday, I was working with a student with an unspecified learning disability. I’m not sure if I should be admitting it, but I had thoughts like ‘what’s the point?’ and ‘oh my, I am just confusing this person.’ But I did feel like although it wasn’t something very valuable that I was doing, it wasn’t easy. I don’t often view my work as skilled, but I did have a moment where I thought, “you know, not everyone could do this”
    -I’ve been doing student loan paperwork the past two weeks which had me extra anxious about all my wasted time and money in college only to make less money than I would have without going. Also, I have been working for non-profits, but won’t get any PSLF because I’ve never secured a full-time position.

    2. Anxa*

      Also, I didn’t mean that working with some students was pointless, I was just getting frustrated because I felt like the harder I tried, the worse I was making the situation.

  119. brightstar*

    Last week I had posted concerns about an employee who has been wearing the same pair of pants to work every day and Elizabeth West asked for an update.

    I did want to clarify some things:

    1. These aren’t plain black pants that can be mistaken for wearing the same pair of pants.
    2. The pants grew increasingly dirty throughout the week.
    3. I was concerned that she didn’t have access to laundry facilities or that something else was going on.
    4. She had mentioned previously having a very limited wardrobe (which is fine, just wear clean clothes.)

    This morning, in talking about our plans for the weekend, I mentioned I needed to go shopping for work clothes and she responded that she did to because she’d put on some weight and her other clothes were tighter than she’d prefer to wear. So, mystery solved and it’s nothing to be overly worried about. I did mention a friend just bought three pairs of work pants for $40 at JC Penny, so that might be a place to look.

    1. LCL*

      …and I just found out Costco will sell some things on line! Including clothes! I will be ordering some jeans this afternoon because they never have the 34 inch inseam at the store. That can be a cheap, fast way for her to get some more work clothes.

    2. Undine*

      Hmm. I live in an area prone to drought, and a while ago I decided to wear the same pants all week. I do wear different pants at home though, and they don’t get visibly dirty (that I know of). I do think about it sometimes (it’s not like you couldn’t notice I wore the same pair of purple pants all week), but I hope no one is policing my clothes at work.

      1. NaoNao*

        Responding to say I LOVE YOUR USERNAME! I’m not sure if it’s your “real” name or if it’s a reference to one of my fave books of all time, “custom of the country” –Wharton nerd here! Hope you’re a fellow one too :)

      2. brightstar*

        I hope it didn’t come off as policing. I was genuinely worried about my employee.

        About your purple pants, people probably think you bought multiple pairs.

      3. ST*

        Every now and then I’ll wear the identical pants and shirt all week just to see if anyone comments.

    1. H.C.*

      Yeah, I think this is specific for applying to NPR internships, maybe a little more broadly to entry-level journalism opportunities. I didn’t get the impression the article was giving general cover letter advice.

  121. Tau*

    So I had a situation at work this week that’s left me feeling really shaken and am now trying to convince myself I’m being unduly anxious and putting too much weight on it…

    I got pulled into helping to handle a thing – let’s call it a review of our teapots by an external company – by a senior coworker who’s in a vaguely managerial position although not generally over me. A bit outside of what I’d usually do, and I wasn’t quite clear on how the process worked, but fair enough. Except that apparently we’d misunderstood what services were on offer, and suddenly I found myself the point-of-contact for this external company as we tried to get on the same page when I apparently didn’t really understand what we were trying to achieve or what the obstacles were. I’d get an e-mail from them, work out what I felt was a reasonable response and course of action based on that information, and run it by senior coworker who instead told me to respond with something different and something I didn’t understand. (Like, his suggested responses felt like actual non-sequiturs to me. I could not make them make sense in the situation at all.) It felt like being in the middle of a game of Telephone. I was near tears near the end, and although I tried not to let on I think senior coworker noticed – he ended up e-mailing the company directly when before he’d told me he didn’t have the time to take this on himself.

    This is really throwing me because I have Asperger’s and the feeling of just being unable to understand something that people around you seem to consider self-evident, that there is some crucial connecting piece everyone else has and you don’t, is something I’ve run across previously in that context. I’ve managed without telling my company about my AS so far, but now I don’t know if my complete and utter inability to understand what the hell we were even talking about this week was normal or if it’s my disability making itself known in my working life. I’ve had so much trouble because of AS in other parts of life that the fact that it hasn’t impeded my career so far has felt too good to be true, and some part of me lives in fear of the day that will come crumbling down.

    I really want to get back to the parts of my job I know I’m good at. :(

    1. CM*

      I don’t have AS (as far as I know!) and I am exactly the same way — it’s really upsetting to me when I’m asked to take responsibility for communicating about something, but I have no idea what needs to be communicated. Or, I think I do, but whatever I say is then contradicted by somebody else, and when I think I understand the new context, somebody jumps in to say a different thing and now I have no clue what’s going on but yet I’m still the one who’s supposed to be communicating about it.

      So, I think that how you’re feeling is completely understandable, AS or not. And I think if you want to address what happened this past week with your senior coworker, you could say something like, “I don’t think it worked out well for me to be the point of contact for External Company last week. I didn’t have enough context to understand exactly what we were trying to achieve or what the obstacles were, so my communications with External Company weren’t effective. I’m still not sure what I should have done to handle that better. Any thoughts?”

      Or, just let it go, if this situation isn’t likely to come up again.

      Also, while you’re feeling unsettled by this, keep in mind that your senior coworker may have interpreted this differently. He may realize that it was inappropriate for him to delegate responsibility to you, when in fact, he should have taken over (or at least given you a detailed explanation and lots of support) once it became clear that there was a misunderstanding about External Company’s services.

      1. Tau*

        Thanks, this was really helpful! I think I needed to be told that people without AS struggle without this too. I think I’m probably going to let this go because it’s not likely to happen again, but I’ll keep that script in mind for the future.

        And your last paragraph was very helpful to hear. That may very well be what happened, thinking about it.

    2. C Average*

      Oh, man. This sounds really stressful. I’m on the spectrum, too, and this kind of ambiguous situation trips those self-doubt reactions from me, too.

      I think there are a few things to consider here. Is this a one-time process, or something you’re likely to be involved in again in the future? How important is this process, and how important is the relationship with the external vendor?

      I’ve come to accept that due to my own vulnerabilities, I’m always going to find certain situations (especially unfamiliar ones) uncomfortable due to the lack of clarity around processes, outcomes, and expectations, and there are times I opt to just roll with it the best I can, rather than try to truly master the situation. It’s kind of like visiting a foreign country where you speak a little bit of the language and accepting that you’re going to miss a lot of nuances, but you know how to find the bathroom and how to count your money and how to summon a cab, and you’re going to be okay, even if it feels confusing and the communication is sub-optimal. This is a tactic I tend to take when I know the process is one-time and/or when the stakes aren’t all that high. I know this probably isn’t ideal and it probably affects my reputation, but it’s sometimes a matter of choosing your battles.

      In situations where mastery IS necessary–where the project is important, where important people are watching closely, where I know it’s going to be an ongoing part of my job–I ask questions, lots of questions, and try to really bring a beginner’s mind to the task. If I am confused, I might try to restate what I THINK is being said and ask for confirmation, or I ask for a summary. There are also times when people are throwing a lot of extraneous information at me and it’s obscuring the important stuff, and I have to sort of create an executive summary for myself. (Interestingly, there’ve been times I have shared these summaries with colleagues and found that they really appreciated them, because they were also confused but didn’t want to or didn’t know how to own up to it.)

      I also think there are times when it’s necessary to go to your manager or supervisor and say, “You know, I just don’t have a solid handle on what we’re trying to achieve here and how this process is supposed to work. Can we talk this through and make sure we’re on the same page?” A reasonable person will make time to do that. In this situation, you can leverage the fact that you’ve never encountered this process before and want to make sure you’re getting it right. That’s not asking for hand-holding. That’s checking in, and it’s normal and okay to want to check in with someone more experienced when you’re handling something new and aren’t sure it’s going well. It’s also okay to gently remind your senior co-worker (who sounds like he’s trying to dump this whole project on you) that you’re on unfamiliar turf and could use his guidance.

      Another thing to remember is that this outside vendor has its own norms, jargon, and processes. It is completely okay for you to ask them to break down things that don’t make sense to you.

      Finally, something you can do, if you have consumers or clients or other stakeholders who will be exposed to this review, is use THEM as a means to get some clarity. You can say, “When we present our findings / lay out our road map / whatever to the board of directors, I want to make sure we can sum things up in a one-pager or half a dozen slides. Can we talk through what’s really key here to make sure we’re aligned?” (Once, in a particularly confusing situation, I actually created a presentation deck. No one ever saw it but me, but it helped ME immensely to know that if someone asked me about the project, I had a clear understanding and a concise set of sound bites. The thing took me a whole weekend to prepare, but the peace of mind I gained was worth it.)

      It’s hard, but you can do this.

      1. Tau*

        This is really, really useful and I’m probably going to come back to it to mull over over the next few days. Thank you so much!

        In this case, the whole thing is not super-important. The whole thing was always more of a “would-be-nice-to-have” and now that it’s come out they don’t actually offer the review services we’re most interested in it’s slipped into more of a “well, since it’s available we might as well”. So I haven’t possibly screwed up anything major – some much-needed perspective there.

        A thing in your comment that makes me feel better about this situation is that I’d been planning to go to senior coworker with something much like your script – basically going “look, I know you say you don’t have enough time to take this on, but in order for me to be able to do it we need to sit down and make sure we’re on the same page about what we want from this company and what the possible obstacles are. Right now I just don’t have enough information to handle this on my own.” It was just that right when I’d decided to do that, I saw he’d e-mailed them directly so the point was moot. But it sounds like I was on the right track.

        And totally taking notes on the other ways of getting understanding. That presentation deck is a great idea, and I didn’t even think about going to other stakeholders or anyone else. …I think one of the other things that really threw me about this was that senior coworker’s role is one I might want to be in in the future (it’s basically one of the possible career trajectories for me once I have a few more years of experience, and a pretty lucrative one), and this experience made me start to doubt I’d be capable of it. But those strategies all sound doable, which is reassuring.

    3. Catherine from Canada*

      I have nothing helpful to say other than, I’m sorry you’re going through this. I have Asperger’s too and that whole missing-a-critical-piece feeling is really, really hard.

  122. Serious Pillowfight*

    I’m a 33-year-old woman and I feel invisible at work. No one seeks my opinion or advice, despite the fact that I’ve held a number of roles in different departments and I know how to do a lot. Sometimes people will even wonder aloud how to do something they seem to have forgotten I can do. Discussions happen around me but not with me (unless I randomly jump in, which probably doesn’t endear me to anyone). I think the problem is that I joke around a lot and can come off as immature and/or sarcastic. But on days when I’m quiet and serious, I seem to be overlooked even more. I’m not sure what to do. Maybe I just don’t know enough to warrant anyone seeking my “expertise.” I want to change that. Just curious if anyone else has felt this way and what you did about it.

    1. CM*

      Can you look for ways to share your expertise at work? For example, lead a training, identify somebody with a problem you can solve and talk to them about it, write a manual about the thing that others wonder how to do. In other words, figure out who could use your opinion or advice, and then try to find a way to give it to them that would be helpful while also establishing you as a go-to person.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      “I think the problem is that I joke around a lot and can come off as immature and/or sarcastic” is the key sentence you wrote. If that’s how you tend to interact with people, that may come to mind more than “skilled at XYZ” for them.

      And, at the risk of jumping to conclusions, if you’ve alienated people, they may not be that inclined to seek you out.

      1. C Average*

        I can somewhat relate to the problem described here, and I think your advice is really solid. Women, especially younger ones, struggle to gain authority and influence, and are sometimes apt to fall back on a sense of humor and a winning personality. The trouble is, while this may gain you some laughs, it also gains you a class-clown reputation that’s hard to shake. (Been there, done that, got the whole collection of self-deprecating ringer Ts.)

        What’s helped me is to develop areas of expertise that no one else has, and that intersects with other people’s work in ways that force them to come to you for help or insights. Something that initially appears boring and complicated is good. For example, at Old Job, I was in charge of reporting and tracking consumer-reported bugs. It was complicated and obscure and it forced me to work with the site developers, the product engineers, the PR team (to develop external messaging around bug fixes), and a variety of other business units. It helped that I found it super interesting and I was highly motivated to create momentum around getting stuff fixed. I also developed a higher-than-average tolerance for being interrupted and helping others, which was admittedly a hassle but also led to me being recognized as a subject-matter expert based solely on people’s impression of me being a subject-matter expert–I didn’t take a course, I didn’t get a certification, I just threw myself into learning my area really, really well.

        I guess what I’m saying is, enthusiastically and publicly embrace your inner nerd with regard to an area that genuinely interests you, and people will notice. Having a fun personality is a good thing, but you definitely don’t want to be perceived as relying on it.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      Speak up when some one wonders how to do some thing. “Hey I know how to categorize teapots and can give you some help with that if you want.”
      If you don’t toot your horn nobody will know you are there. After doing this a few times, people will seek you out.

    4. Thlayli*

      “Sorry, I couldn’t help overhearing what you said about the teapot handles. I actually used to glue on the handles for 6 months when I worked with Wakeen’s team. I can show you how to use that glue if you like”.

  123. Lauren*

    Monthly team (employee only) meetings … about recycling and buying a toaster vs. real stuff.

    Ok, so for those that are following my weekly updates. I do love the work I do. The every-day stuff is interesting, I have a good amount of flexibility, I top out at 45 hrs a week, pay is on low side of market rate, but still ok since I choose here instead of places that require a long commute or 80 hr weeks.

    So I want to stay here – I want to fix this place – I want to fix how management treats us. They’ve asked for feedback, so I am trying to get them the feedback – however possible. Even if it isn’t me saying it. So I call them spies, but they are just my friends who are honest with me and I with them. We all want to make this place great, but we are still angry – which means we are ready to give up on it yet. Once I go back to – feeling completely unwanted / ignored and like nothing will change, I know I will start job hunting again. Right now, I don’t report to those guys that made me feel like that last year when I quit. I am in a diff reporting structure now, that is quite frankly awesome and I got a 20K boost to market rate – to make me stay. I am heard, I am valued, and I am happy to be on this new team. But … all my friends still report up to the other guys – they still have issues – and their happiness affects my happiness. I still work in the same office so it affects me, and I can’t ignore it nor do I want to.

    I made things change for me by quitting and bringing to light the ridiculously low pay when I was offered 40K more to leave. I stayed because that was a 3 hour commute would have made me hate everyday, and I believed that I was heard by the guys. Turns out I was thrown money and a fake title, and promptly forgotten once I was sent to the other team.

    So I stay, because I am not ready to give up. I want to drag others up with me to be heard, stop gender bias, get market rate for everyone, and be a support system for my friends.

    #NeverthelessShePersisted
    I totally bought this as my work laptop bag – https://www.etsy.com/listing/511225959/nevertheless-she-persisted-teal-tote-bag

    1. Temperance*

      My take: I would leave for more money. You can’t fix other people, and you can’t change the old boys club. I think it’s admirable that you want to help, but I would prioritize my own career over a company, especially one that isn’t helping you to get where you want to be.

      1. Lauren*

        I get that. But I am at a good salary and title for what I am willing to sacrifice. I like my 10 min commute, I like only 45 hours a week, I have freedom to plan my day, 6 weeks vacation, and WFH / flexibility – insurance could be better. I could get a better title and more money, but I don’t want to be constantly working – and having a great boss helps a ton now. I am not staying to just fix the company. I am staying because – everything else is good – except the boy’s club – which no longer directly affects my job – but does affect my friends. Most people can just shut up and go to work, but I can’t. I am where I want to be – in terms of my own sanity – but if I ever have to report back to those guys, I will quit on the spot.

        1. Temperance*

          It’s completely fine to not want to work more, or not to want a certain commute, but I think wanting to help your friends and “fix” the company is unwise. That’s where I was coming at, and your comment read as if you wanted to do this at a personal cost.

          1. Lauren*

            I don’t fear any retaliation though, because I am on a diff team. I am in an in-demand field, so even if I was fired for speaking up – I could move on quickly. My friends fear retaliation in subtle ways, because they still report up these guys – i thought i was doing a good thing by being vocal about issues like gender bias, constantly putting off reviews, etc. Maybe I should just keep my mouth shut and realize that no place is perfect.

            1. Temperance*

              I totally support fighting that stuff, I just hold the unpopular opinion that, as a woman, you need to do whatever you can to improve yourself and your own career. I think women need to be stronger and speak up, but I’m not about to really stick my neck out for anyone.

              1. Lauren*

                I hold the opinion that ‘it’s not me, it’s them.” Some bosses will just degrade women and never think that they are biases. It took me 15 years believing that I was as replaceable and worthless as my old boss would gaslight me into believing. I woke up though, and realized my value when I quit that job with 6 offers in one week. Very few companies giving 2o – 25k raises on a whim – but I’ve had it done twice for me over the years to stay where I was. I have power now that I have realized my worth to each company, and I want to use that power to stand up for others who don’t feel like that can say anything. If I can’t change anything, I at least want to encourage others to recognize the moment to quit faster than I did. And say “boss is a gender biased jerk, you wont ever get a raise or promotion that you deserve, move on to a place that will.”

  124. Fortitude Jones*

    Well, I think the writing’s on the wall, and it’s time for me to find a new job either within my company or with another company altogether. I posted here back in January that I was going to be alerting my supervisor to the fact that I’ll be posting for internal positions soon (my company requires you tell your manager before you’re allowed to post). I came in late today after a dental appointment and found out that one of our AVP’s has posted out and into a different division (really, our IT group). This is a guy who’s been in our division pretty much since this division formed, and now he’s jumping ship? And on the tail of several other people leaving for new jobs – something’s not right. Something bad is about to go down if long-term employees are rolling out. So even though I’ve only been here a year and two months (I transferred from another division that I was in for almost a year and a half), I think I need to speed up my exit. Upper management has been having a ton of closed door sessions lately, and even though we hit our yearly goal last year and will receive our profit sharing bonus, the wheels may be coming off. There are rumors one of our biggest clients is about to leave, and if they do, there may not be enough work. When there’s not enough work, that’s when people start talking about scaling back. I’ve got to network hard at the industry conference they’re sending me to at the end of the month. I’m glad I keep my resume updated.

  125. swingbattabatta*

    My family and I relocated last summer for my husband’s job, and my employer was wonderful enough to work out a telecommuting option for me. I’ve been working remotely, traveling every couple of months, and the arrangement has been working out really well so far. I had an informal review in December with two of the managing partners, and they told me they are really happy with my work and the arrangement so far.

    That being said… when we moved, everyone knew that the relocation was temporary (1 year). My husband has now been offered (and has accepted) a permanent placement, in City 3, where my family lives. It is a wonderful opportunity, and we are both really excited (both for his new job and to be near my family). I now have to have the talk with my employer, and I am so. nervous. Rationally, I know that 1) this is a business relationship and 2) they wouldn’t be paying me to telecommute if it wasn’t working out for them. But, emotionally, I feel guilty. When we made this arrangement, there were zero conditions put in place (i.e. we’ll do this if you commit to returning), but they have been very vocal about missing me in the office and hoping I come back. I’d like to continue telecommuting with this company for the near future, from City 3, but I feel incredible anxiety about breaking the news and then having yet another round of negotiations.

    1. CM*

      It’s hard to feel like you’re disappointing an employer that has been good to you. Best of luck with breaking the news. If it helps, there’s a good chance they have considered the scenario that you might not come back.

    2. TeaLady*

      I have been telecommuting for 18 months because I wanted to move to join my partner. My colleagues do miss me, but they are happy that my life outside work is what I wanted. I am sure your managers will feel the same. A happy employee is a productive employee and you’ve already proved telecommuting works for you and them

  126. MovingOnToNewHorizons?*

    A quick question on timeline for giving notice.

    I am never finished college. I started taking classes during my lunch break with my boss’ approval last September.
    I am planning on applying to a program that will be full time, thus my need to quit my current job. There is no guarantee that I get into the program, however the timeline for acceptance and program starting are very slim. (Notifications go out at end of May, program begins in June).

    My situation is that I solely run one of the few profitable programs at my work. I am the only person that knows the ins/outs of this program. I originally started on as admin asst and moved up into program manager role. It took me about 6 months to be fully comfortable with running this program.

    Question: Due to the slim notification period of acceptance to program & program begin date, what do you propose is a safe amount of time to give notice? My boss is wonderful and I truly don’t want to leave her hanging. However, this isn’t a job that I plan to do for the rest of my life and the rest of my coworkers are… strange.

    Note: If I don’t get accepted to the program, I still plan on leaving (I’m not fond of this position/work enviro).

    1. katamia*

      If you aren’t accepted to the program, are you still going to want to leave at the same time, or might you want to stay until you find another job (say maybe later in June or in July)? If so, I wouldn’t give notice until you get the acceptance.

      Either way, since you know you want to leave soon, it would be a kindness to try to document as much as possible since you know you don’t want to stay much longer.

    2. LawCat*

      Does the time between program notice and program start let you give at least two weeks notice? That’s standard and professional to give time to wrap things up.

      You could start creating some documentation relevant to your position and workflows. That will be helpful to the organization when you eventually transition out for any reason. But, overall, on the notice: two weeks.

      1. MovingOnToNewHorizons?*

        Katamia & LawCat,
        Great idea on documenting procedures and processes. I will get started on that now. Your advice & outside insight has helped me quite a bit. Yes, the notification time frame will allow me to give at least two weeks notice.

        Have a great weekend!

  127. West of the Mississippi*

    I work in social work, where the agency employs a clinician as an independent contractor to provide supervision hours for licensure. This is pretty unique to licensure fields; this person is not the same as my actual supervisor/boss. The boss who employs her is 3 levels of leadership above my role.

    There has been a lot of pre-existing need to give her feedback on poor quality of supervision. However, about a month ago, she suddenly has only been calling in by phone and there are multiple logistics concerns that compound the poor supervision. She has told us she is not coming into the office because of the cold and ice at early morning hours, rather than her pregnancy. She has also told her boss not to hire a replacement during her maternity leave and plans to continue phone supervision 2 weeks after she has the baby.

    I would like to go as a group of clinicians to give feedback to that boss about the quality of supervision, but was warned recently by a different supervisor that this would be seen as discriminatory for a reasonable accommodation made for pregnancy. 1) Thoughts about how staff can give feedback in this situation 2) Thoughts about how to frame this to her boss that working from home is NOT actually a reasonable accommodation for pregnancy? 3) Thoughts about how to make conference calls more productive? We are a group of 4-7 people in person, literally yelling over each other into one conference phone.

    1. harp+dash*

      I’m an LCSW and this is not quality supervision. Sure, you might be checking off the box, but are you really learning anything? Also, are conference calls acceptable for supervision sessions on a regular basis, per your licensing board (I do not know if they would be in my state)? If they aren’t acceptable, you could say to your boss “I’m concerned that the current set up is not acceptable per the licensing board due to xyz (lack of in person meetings, too many group vs individual sessions, missed sessions while she is on maternity leave, etc)… what are our other options for licensing supervisors?”
      I know some new regulations in my state have limited the number of supervisors who are eligible/qualified, but this does not seem like it’s benefitting anyone. I despise conference calls and would hate using them for my only supervision option.

    2. Feathers McGraw*

      Poor supervision is a serious issue that may affect your ability to ethically practice. Whatever accommodations she needs in her job, you need proper supervision. I’m in the UK where the rules may differ but anything affecting your fitness to practice trumps anything else here.

      You may find it helpful to post in /r/socialwork or /r/psychotherapy on Reddit – they’ll have good, field specific advice.

  128. Mononymous*

    Y’all. I GOT A PROMOTION! *throws confetti*

    It’s a level bump promotion–same role, same boss, same title but with a higher number at the end. It comes with a 10% salary increase and I’m now bonus eligible. Woohoo!

    My boss told me I made it easy for him to justify the promotion to upper management, and his comments in my annual review doc (in which he gave me the highest possible rating) were absolutely glowing. This is the first time I’ve been promoted versus changing jobs to get to the next level, so I’m still a little bit in shock!

    Plus, my husband also got the highest possible rating on his review and a solid raise, so we will be celebrating with a fancy dinner this weekend. Time to break out the good steak!

  129. Sunflower*

    I’m at a conference as a sponsor. I sit at the sponsor table and hand out SWAG. Pretty easy. At the last conference, one of the attendees was creeping me out. He came up to my table way too many times and kept offering to help me with boxes/items, etc. I told him no I don’t need help. He knew he was doing something wrong because he kept apologizing and then kept doing it! He asked to give me a hug at the end of the day and I said no. I ignored his follow up emails and hoped to never see him again.

    WELL he’s here and he’s found me. He’s apologized AGAIN so he knows I’m creeped out. So far I’m just keeping the talk very minimal and not making eye contact. He wants to connect with someone at my company. I don’t want to connect him with anyone- he obviously has a limited sense of social norms/appropriateness. I think next time he comes up I’m going to say ‘Please stop saying you’re sorry and then continuing to do the same thing.’ Is it appropriate to ask him to not approach my table anymore? This is so AWKWARD WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE!

    1. peachie*

      Yes, it’s totally appropriate!! If he gives you any more trouble after you’ve told him to leave you alone, maybe let the hotel staff/security know–that’s seriously not okay.

      1. Manders*

        Seconded! And maybe even let the conference organizers or other people on your team know if it happens again.

        Also, you really don’t have to soften your request with “please” at this point–an icy “I don’t want to hear apologies, I want you to quit doing it” would be called for at this point. You’re not the one who made things awkward, he’s the one who made things awkward. You’re just pushing the awkwardness back to him.

    2. CM*

      Yes. Say, “You’re making me uncomfortable. Please do not come to the table again and do not talk to me again. If you do, I will contact security.” Don’t be afraid of being awkward or mean. This guy is a creep.

    3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      It’s awkward because you’re not using your words, and you’re trying not to make waves.

      “You’re making me uncomfortable and you’re monopolizing my time. I don’t want to hear your apologies. Stay away from me and stop coming back to this table. If you can’t do that, I’m calling security.”

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        +1000

        This person has lost the expectation of polite replies by repeatedly making you so uncomfortable. It’s unclear by your post whether this has been over the course of weeks/months/whatever, but his repeated messed-up contact with you rises to a creepy level.

    4. Lily in NYC*

      Ugh, how awkward. Bringing back yucky memories of the dude at a work conference who I had spoken to but never met before. When he met me, he said “Oh, you give good phone” in a creepy manner and then called me at 3am and asked me to come to his hotel room. So gross. My boss didn’t let him attend the conference the next day, ha!

    5. amysee*

      As far as I’m concerned this guy’s behavior is predatory, period.

      I work for a company that runs conferences. We love and need our sponsors. If I knew this was happening to any of our attendees I would not allow it to continue. The fact that you are part of the conference revenue stream just gives you more leverage. If you are comfortable with it, report this guy to your conference point of contact. Be clear that this happened last year, too.

      If this were my event, he would be escorted out same day, security would be alerted and he would be blacklisted from our events. Good luck and be safe.

    6. Cassandra*

      In relatively enlightened IT circles, conferences are starting to have (and even enforce) “codes of conduct” that clarify acceptable behavior and state consequences for unacceptable behavior — which his is.

      Not an immediate fix, but once you’ve dealt with the immediate situation (and I hope it turns out all right!) I suggest giving the conference feedback to the effect that a code of conduct is necessary.

  130. Marcela*

    I am late today, but perhaps that’s better since I want to rant about my coworker, sitting right to my right, who eats veggies ALL THE TIME. I get it, if you are only eating fruits and veggies, obviously twice a day is not enough. But it’s driving me crazy to have to hear him munching the noisiest (is that a word?) things he can find. Think cucumber or apple. Every hour.

    Probably I would not be as annoyed if this week he hadn’t been a jerk. At some point I told him that my code was incorrectly identifying something, and he said “that’s what if statements are for”. Really? That’s what you say to somebody who obviously knows how to code? And then later he asked me if he needed to read a thread of emails where our boss asked about changes that affect both of us. WTF, do you think I’m your assistant so I have to give you the info digested and ready for consumption? I told him I did not know anything about what he needed and I did not care, therefore he needed to reply to the emails directly. Grrr.

    The sad/funny thing was that when I moved tk this office I was so happy because the other person who share the desk with me was also a noisy eater, but only once a day, at lunch. So this is as the Spaniards say “don’t like soup? Drink two cups!”.

    2. Emi.*

      Ugh, I’m sorry! That stinks.Can you wear headphones? Also, can you please explain this soup proverb? It sounds intriguing.

      1. Marcela*

        Well, there are two interpretations of the proverb. The one I like and I was taught tells you that you will always get more of the things you don’t like. So “you say you don’t like soup? Let me give you twice as much”. But there are people who understand it as “be careful of what you wish for”, as if you like something so much that you get too much and you end hating it (the ambiguity comes from the way the proverb starts in Spanish “¿no te gusta la sopa?”, which can be used with positive and negative meaning).

    3. Marcela*

      I am wearing earplugs. Probably I’ll need ones with noise cancelling magic, because I can hear him munch over the music to the point where my phone tells me to be careful.

  131. Lurker Librarian*

    Hello, I’ve been reading AAM for a few months now but this is my first post. I have a question that hopefully someone can at least point me in the right direction for: I’m in my first management position and in an effort to not micromanage, have gone too far the other way. I now have an employee who is not doing well with some of her assigned duties and I need to sit down and outline how I want the duties to be performed. Any advice on resources for adapting your management style?

    1. Spoonie*

      Not a manager, but I have a fantastic manager (Jane) whose style might benefit you. I thought my last manager was good, and then I had Jane.

      We have weekly team meetings every Monday where we get updated on relevant happenings (could be a quick 5 minute chat, sometimes longer). Every month (ish), we get a rundown on each team members major Project (5 people). Not the little “Oh Spoonie just redesigned our teapot handle” but like “look at how we’re going to overhaul teapot production in 6 months once Wakeen gets this widget completed”.

      Each team member then has an individual meeting with Jane. We all have a OneNote page that we keep updated with Next Week’s goals, Backlog items, Discuss, Completed Last Week, and Ongoing Projects. Every week we add a new page to the OneNote notebook. It comes in handy at review time so Jane can be like “Oh yes, Spoonie did that awesome teapot handle” or …whatever. It helps me remember those random questions that pop up. It helps me feel like I got something accomplished. It helps me when I’m at loose ends see what needs to get done instead of continuing to fiddle with the same teapot handle designs.

      Obviously this may not work for you, but you could take pieces of it and make it work. Since 80% of my team is remote, we have to utilize technology as best we can to stay connected.

      1. Lurker Librarian*

        There are definitely aspects of this that would be very helpful. Thanks so much!

    2. Teapot librarian*

      I’ve been in your shoes. In my job for a year and a half now and still working on developing my management skills. Do you have one-on-ones scheduled with your employees? If you don’t, that’s the first thing I suggest. Get them on your calendars now and stick to them. All the advice about one on ones is that they shouldn’t just be check-ins on performance, but I find it useful that I have a set time to talk to each of my employees every other week. I’m sort of intimidated by one of my employees, and this forces me not to avoid the tough conversations with him. Also, do you have any peers (other managers at your same level) at your workplace who you can run things by? I desperately wish I had another manager in my workplace–it would save me from a lot of “I can’t wait until Friday so I can post this question on AAM”!
      Good luck!

      1. Lurker Librarian*

        No other managers! We’re too small for multiple managers. I did have one-on-one meetings today and I’m certainly going to be holding them more often. I got to address the issues with Jane without her feeling singled out because I also met with everyone else, so progress!

  132. Kore*

    How to explain when you get over-emotional at work? A coworker was chewing me out over a minor thing, I had a full blown panic attack, and sounded clearly emotional (this was over the phone). The coworker kind of mocked it, which wasn’t great, but even as I was trying my best to sound super professional it’s kind of impossible when you’re shaking, crying and in general in a state of disarray. I explained the situation in detail to a coworker and a friend, who both (independently) agree that the other coworker was in the wrong, BUT I’m nervous that since this coworker is much more valuable to the company than me that I’ll be the one in trouble.

    Also, in this situation do you explain the panic attack? So far I’ve been vague about it, but I genuinely did have a panic attack and so this is not normally how I treat work feedback (and even then, she was clearly mad and ranting at me, it barely counted as feedback).

    1. CM*

      Do you have to explain it? Sounds like it was a one-time thing.
      If you are confronted about it, you could say that you had an unexpectedly strong reaction when yelled at, but this hasn’t happened before and you don’t expect it to happen again.

    2. Temperance*

      I wouldn’t explain it to her. I would probably just move on, and try not to do whatever mistake set her off so strongly.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Next time you could:
      Tell her you are sick and will call her back in 15 minutes.
      Breathe in through your nostrils and out through a small opening in your mouth.

      Not sure why you would be in trouble? for crying on the phone? huh?
      In a calm moment rethink what she was saying. How will you respond to it on a better day if she does this again? Practice in front of the mirror. Panic is lack of knowledge or lack of planning. So think it through and develop a plan.

      Don’t explain it to her, Please! Rude and angry people do not deserve explanations.

      And now you will think I am weird. Please make sure you are drinking enough water. Panics like that can happen when we are too dehydrated.

  133. Obviuosly The New Girl*

    I’m new to office culture and have some general questions that would really ease my worries if anyone wants to respond. I’m a little over a month in at this job, I love it. I just want to be sure I’m not doing anything totally out of whack. Please don’t laugh. I overthink situations all the time.
    – My office allows jeans on Friday, is it ok if I wear them? I’m new and one of the youngest team members, I don’t know if that’s like a ‘pay your dues then you can wear’ thing.
    -What qualifies as dressing too casual? It’s not suit & tie dress, but (as said above) jeans only on Friday.
    -Does it look bad that I go out to lunch so often?
    -The office is cubicle style; I’m in the corner and the people around me are LOUD. Like I have headphones on and I still hear them. They do sales calls but this loud is from idle chit chat. How can I nicely address this?

    1. CAA*

      Wear jeans on Fridays if at least half the other staff do. It’s really fine.

      For the non-Friday clothing, probably the best thing you can do is look around and see what others at your level and one level up are wearing and try to emulate their style. It’s really hard to know from a distance what would be too casual for your environment. Generally I’d guess it’s trousers or skirts with blouses and close-toed leather shoes.

      Unless your office is really weird or you’re taking unusually long lunches, nobody is noticing whether you eat in or out.

      I don’t have much advice on the noisy neighbors. Some offices do have a culture of talking back and forth from cube to cube and unfortunately, noise cancelling headphones don’t usually cancel out human voices. If they are standing right outside the opening to your cube, you can turn around and ask if they could move the conversation down the aisle a little ways. Otherwise, as the newbie, I think you have to put up with it.

      1. Obviously The New Girl*

        Thanks CAA! Your advice is really helpful.
        As far as the noise goes, our office has been known to talk cube to cube too. I figured I would just have to deal but I will occasionally need to take a call and I don’t want to be drowned out by others chit chat. Thank you for the advice, I will keep this in mind.

    2. Pebbles*

      1) Go ahead and wear jeans. Just don’t wear ones with holes in them. I’d wait to see if anyone else wears the obviously distressed ones before wearing mine if that’s your thing. Darker jeans tend to be seen as “dressier”, maybe start with those until you are more comfortable at your office?
      2) We have casual dress M-F at my office. What it means here is no spaghetti straps, no flip flops, no short shorts (although mid to knee length shorts are fine), t-shirts are fine as long as there are no rude statements or questionable content on them (beer logo shirts are fine here, but get the feel of your office first). Also, be aware if any clients will be visiting the office and specifically going through your area and try to dress a little on the nicer side of casual. I would go with slacks, flats, and a sleeved non T-shirt (no messages or screen prints) for now until you get a general feel from other people. So light blouse or sweater depending on your weather. Also check the company handbook and see if there are any suggestions there.
      3) Nope, not at all. I would just keep lunch between 30 minutes to an hour on a regular basis though. If you are in a meeting that goes over or in a work-related conversation, don’t keep checking your watch or otherwise making noise of “it’s lunchtime”.
      4) Politely let them know that you can hear them, tell them you are trying to concentrate on whatever, and would you please lower your voices? Thank you! Rinse, repeat as necessary. If you get any push back or it still isn’t helping, then talk with your manager about how it’s affecting your work, but say this calmly.

    3. Emi.*

      Ooh, I sympathize! I’m also young and new, and prone to overthinking. I’d say jeans are fine, but I’d stay away from distressed styles. Dark jeans are dressier, like Pebbles said, and I think skinny jeans look “younger” than bootcut or straight-leg styles.

      Figuring out what level of dress to wear, if it’s not a straightforward suit place, can be really hard! What helps me is to make a point of noticing what all the other women are wearing, and then looking at lots of business outfits online (usually in the course of browsing/shopping) until I start to be able to say “That’s too casual for my office” or “That would fit in.”

      Different women in my office do have their own styles, which originally made it harder for me to figure out the correct *level of dress*, but now that I’ve sorted them out it makes it easier–I can keep a mental image of an archetypal Jane Outfit and an archetypal Wakeena Outfit, etc., and then ask myself “Is this an Emi Outfit that basically fits in?” instead of measuring my hypothetical outfit against the mishmash of everyone else’s styles all together. Does that make help?

      1. Pebbles*

        Ooh, good point with the different styles of jeans! I like sticking with the bootcut style since that works with my body type and I’ve got a bit too much in the hip area for some of the other styles.

      2. Obviously The New Girl*

        This is really helpful! Thank you, I will definitely keep the “Jane outfit” in mind. I get a little confused. My office is mostly women but the age gap is significant. We start around it goes from late 20s to late 40s, not much in between so it can be confusing gauging what is appropriate for the WHOLE office.
        Thank you again! So helpful!

    4. Obviously The New Girl*

      Thank you all for the helpful advice! Definitely means a lot to me as someone who’s still trying to learn the ropes.

  134. Ash (the other one)*

    Am I being unreasonable here? I’m in the process of hiring for my team. We invited one candidate for screening with HR — he hasn’t spoken to me as the hiring manager yet. After the screening call he proceeded to follow me on Twitter, request me on LinkedIn, follow me on ResearchGate, and ask to friend me on Facebook (which I feel is really, really over the line). Combined with his lackluster screening (which I would ordinarily say, eh let’s see how he does in the interview) I am tempted to just throw his resume out and move on…

    1. CAA*

      It’s kind of weird, but I don’t think it’s “cancel the interview” weird if you would otherwise be talking to him. Twitter is public, LinkedIn and ResearchGate are professional, so it’s presumptuous, but not completely abnormal that he’d be connecting on those platforms.

      Facebook is over the line, but some people do use it professionally, and you can just decline his friend request if you only use it for personal things.

      You might want to have a chat with your HR person though. She probably shouldn’t be giving out the hiring manager’s name until she actually schedules the interviews.

    2. JMegan*

      Nope, I agree. Circular file for that one. He has already shown himself to be too much trouble, and you haven’t even talked to him yet! Assuming you have other good candidates in the pool, there’s no reason to move forward with this one.

    3. Leatherwings*

      LinkedIn and Twitter wouldn’t bother me. Facebook would. That combined with a less than awesome screening? I wouldn’t waste your time.

  135. Forever Anon*

    I’m taking my first real vacation with my company and my boss (who works in the main office; I’m in a satellite office several states away) explained that several consultants may be in that week. I have very basic Admin/Reception duties and visiting consultants are self-sufficient so I don’t anticipate any problems while I’m away. However, I’m still concerned that I’ll get called while I’m away and I very much need my trip to be about unplugging and recharging. Is there anything I can do before I leave to minimize the risk of being called or am I just being overly anxious? Thanks!

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Can you set up coverage (either a point person or just a FAQ doc) so that there’s a clear place for people to go with questions without calling you? What are the things that would have major negative implications, above people just being annoyed or inconvenienced, that you would be able to solve for if you were there?

      It might also be helpful to connect with your boss on her expectations for your availability on your vacation, and norm on what those genuine emergencies are under which they might need to contact you.

    2. KR*

      Could you make a worksheet with commonly asked questions to leave for your boss? You could also prepare a summary sheet with information they might ask about for current projects. I also like to send off a final email with where I left everything. Finally, if you can, turn off your phone and try to enjoy your vacation!

    3. AnitaJ*

      Totally agree with the other comments. I’m prepping for PTO now, and writing ridiculously detailed emails for all people who are covering me (5 in total; I do a lot of stuff, apparently). Whatever you do, however small, it may seem silly, but write it down in case they need it. Like: “When so-and-so calls for what’s-her-name, I do this.” “When I receive this sheet of paper, I put it here.” “When someone makes this request, here are the steps I take (1, 2, 3).” This, at least for me, minimizes my anxiety because I know that I did absolutely everything I could to give them all the information I have.

      Also, I totally get the anxiety, but it’s OK! You deserve vacation, and you say the consultants are self-sufficient, which is really helpful. I’m an EA for a bunch of people, and sometimes I just can’t fix every problem. They’re adults. They fix it themselves. I’m not doing open-heart puppy surgery here. It will all be OK. I promise. Have fun!

    4. AnitaJ*

      Also, if there’s a way for you to grant Inbox access to someone at your company, that might help too! That way you know if they ‘can’t find’ something, they have the capability to search until they do. (And if they can’t find it, that’s on them, my friend)

      1. Forever Anon*

        Thanks for the great advice, everyone! My boss, who’s the Office Manager is going to reroute calls to the main office and I’m setting up an away message to call her in case of emergencies. I’m making a list of things that may come up and how to deal with it (on my end before I leave and how consultants can deal with minor things). Everyone at my company is required to be available 24/7 but “limited access to wifi” is pretty much the standard excuse for lack of responsiveness during vacations. I think a lot of my personal stress about this is that I’m turning 30 and haven’t accomplished any of my personal/professional goals yet (my job is very much a survival job). I’ll be in San Francisco (a childhood dream spot for me) on the big day though so maybe it will all be okay.

  136. Ornery PR*

    So I’m kind of a lurker her, but I could use some advice toady. I’ve worked at my current job for 6 years, and we are moving our office to a new location near by next month. Currently, I have my own office and enjoy lots of quiet time to concentrate on my work. But the new space is going to be kind of an open plan with way fewer offices, and I doubt that I will be in one of them. There’s a person who works on the cubicle side of our office who talks constantly throughout the day and most people over there can’t stand the obnoxious and loud thought narration that takes place all day. But no one says anything to this person that I’m aware of. I will have no problem speaking up, but I really can’t think of a nicer way to say, “shut up! Your constant talking is driving everyone crazy.” Any advice?

    1. KR*

      In the moment…. “Lucinda, I don’t know if you realize this but your voice carries very well and I can clearly hear everything you’re saying. Do you mind speaking quieter – it would really help me concentrate.”

      After a while when she doesn’t stop…. “Lucinda, I don’t mean to be a stickler but it’s really difficult for me to concentrate on my work when I can hear everything that’s going on in your cubicle. Can you please try to tone it down?”

      Also, encourage your new office mates to say something! If just you say it, as the newcomer she may just dismiss you. If people she’s worked with for years all start saying something too, you might get a breakthrough.

    2. Undine*

      Are you saying she talks to herself? That’s very hard to stop, because it’s completely unconscious. After you move, maybe you can get a couple of people together and go to your boss or her boss and say, this is disruptive with the new layout, what can we do about it? You have to ask her first, of course, but I’m betting it’s hard enough for her to stop that it needs to be official.

      If she’s talking to other people, ask her to lower her voice, and also to go to a conference room. If they don’t have enough conference rooms, talk to your boss again.

      Remember that it’s not all Lucinda’s fault. Your management made a choice that this is the best layout for the business. There are a number of potential issues that are totally predictable. It is their job to make it work.

    3. Ornery PR*

      Thank you both. KR- those are good scripts. I really can’t tell you if the people she works around say anything to her, but I suspect it’s much more passive aggressive, and I fear someone is just going to blow up at her one day. That kind of passive aggressive behavior in my office drives me crazy, because if people have an issue with me, I’d much rather them tell me so I can fix it. I know her boss hates confrontation, so I don’t know if she’s directly tried to handle it. Most of the complaints I hear about her come from her boss, actually.

      Undine, yes, I think she kind of talks to herself, but mostly she will always pipe into other people’s conversations or just kind of announcing what she’s working on. Like, “This client is driving me crazy, I think I’m just going to have to finish up their stuff tomorrow” as she’s wrapping something up. I think she hopes other people chime in with, oh, what’s going on? and then she has an excuse to kind of vent for a minute. But this happens all throughout the day.

      Anyway, I appreciate your input!

  137. Lady Dedlock*

    I would love to hear from people who have managed to receive a decent sized raise without a promotion, especially in a bureaucratic setting.

    Here’s my situation: I work at a research center at a college where merit raises are not standard practice. The college typically gives a 3% COL raise each year, but that doesn’t even cover the annual increases in their health insurance premiums. So I’m effectively making less money every year, unless I get a promotion. (Getting a promotion is apparently the easiest way to get HR to approve a raise.) I’ve gotten two promotions in the seven years I’ve been here, but my department is small, and I’ve been promoted as far as I can go.

    I’m paid reasonably well, but I live in a very high COL area, and it’s really discouraging to feel like I’m able to afford less and less the longer I stay here. Meanwhile, the workload and stress levels here keep increasing. I’m not sure if that gives me enough leverage to argue for a raise, though. Asking for a market-rate adjustment might also be tricky, because I have an odd hybrid job. (If you search for my job title on Google, I am the only person who comes up in the results.)

    The most straightforward thing to do might be to find a job somewhere else. But I feel like my boss would be unhappy to lose me like this; it’s not easy to find someone with my particular skill set. So, I wonder if there’s a way to renegotiate in place. Anyone done this successfully?

    1. peachie*

      Oof. I haven’t got any advice, but I’m in a very similar situation and I feel you. :(

    2. KR*

      Been there and I feel you. I was getting steady 1$/hr merit raises in my old job because I started when I was 16 making 8$/hr and during the time I worked there I graduated high school, got my Associate’s degree, and took on more and more complex duties. However I had been there 5 years I wasn’t really making enough for the scope of work I had taken on. The one time I tried negotiating with my boss, he was unwilling to shoot for more than a dollar because he didn’t want it to be denied since merit raises are so rare in government.
      The thing that really worked for us was doing a salary survey to other municipalities of similar size in our state to find out the rate for the work I did. We found out I was being severely underpaid and my pay went up nearly 60% and we adjusted the base rate we paid our employees since it wasn’t competitive anymore. If you went to your boss with numbers from other college research centers and pointed out how your pay has effectively decreased, he may be willing to bump you up.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I had an interview where they contacted my current supervisor afterwards. They wound up eliminating the position, but I mentioned that the main reason I was looking is that all the positions I would seem to qualify for easily paid more than I was making, and another internal division even said they wanted to offer me a position for a lot more, but couldn’t at the moment. I told my supervisor that I didn’t really want to leave, but I didn’t want to be underpaid either, so I got a significant out-of-cycle raise to try to keep me from looking! (It worked, although I wasn’t really looking before, the hiring manager contacted me about the position that was eliminated.)

    4. Whats In A Name*

      When I was in higher ed I was in same boat at you, COL only increases and no upward movement available. My current salary was at the mid-range of my classification level. My supervisor was able to get me a decent bump with a title change but no promotion.

    5. Chriama*

      If your boss would be unhappy to lose you, then she obviously has an incentive to figure out how to get you a raise? How candid are you comfortable being with her? And I wouldn’t get hung up on job title. Look for a few titles that apply to different parts of your job and give your best estimate of the average salary (e.g. 30% graphic designer with 3 years experience, x. 70% database admin with 5 years experience, y. Graphic database admin = 0.3x+0.7y).

    6. Not So NewReader*

      In all likelihood, your boss is going to have to present a case to his higher ups. So basically you are providing your boss with the talking points and the wording for that request.

      Type out relevant facts and even make charts where possible.
      Here’s something to start with:
      1) Insurance costs vs 3% COL raise
      2) High COL area. Find rates of pay across the population of your area. Find average costs for basic living bills.
      3) Look at what everyone here is saying especially KR and Chriama, try to estimate out what the market is paying folks in your position.
      4) Explain briefly what you do that makes you unique and hard to replace. Add that you have been there for seven years. Finish by listing some of the major new tasks that you have taken on.

      Have an idea of how much raise you would be happy with, create a range so you know where you are going with this.
      If you organize your talking points and even put them on paper this gives your boss something to work with. My boss and I sat together and lined up talking points for my raise. She had to present the case but she needed my inputs to build a strong case. She got me the raise. My pay quadrupled. (Part time job)

    7. m*

      I just dealt with this last week. I am in my first job out of grad school and in my first full-time job ever and so I started at the bottom of the range when I was first hired. I brought it up as “so you mean it doesn’t matter how long I stay or what I do? In five years I will have more years of work experience than other people people did when they started but I will still be at the bottom of my range just because this happened to be my first job?” We are now all getting merit increases for the first time in 10 years

  138. peachie*

    Eek, super late here, but I’m in a weird interview situation and could use some advice. I got to the final stages with a company I’m really excited about in the past few months, and even had a salary discussion, but my last follow up email (about two weeks after I sent a follow-up email that got no response, which I sent about two weeks after they were supposed to get in touch) got a response of “We got your message, I’ll be in touch with you soon” and… nothing.

    I know I didn’t get the job, and that’s fine, but I had a number of positive phone and in-person interviews with the two hiring managers, and I’d like to thank them for their time (and maybe, as I’m sort of transitioning to a new field, ask them if they’d recommend working on specific skills or getting any certifications as I move forward). I’m in a bit of a bind, though, because sending an email that says “I know you’re not going to hire me…” feels passive aggressive, and sending yet another “poke?” email feels annoying and counterproductive. Ugh. I WANT CLOSURE.

    1. CM*

      Unfortunately, I think you’re going to have to wait to get a definitive answer before you reach out to them again.

    2. CAA*

      It’s still mid-morning on the west coast, so I don’t think you’re that late to the party. Lots of us read from the bottom of the thread later in the day and Saturday. :-)

      It sounds like there’s a delay on their side, and maybe they’ve made an offer to the top candidate and are still negotiating so they aren’t ready to say no to you just yet. You don’t want to send an email asking for feedback if you’re still in the running and you really don’t know you’re not. Hopefully you already sent thank you notes after your previous interviews, so you can’t really reach out again for that purpose. I think you have to let this one go. If you do get a rejection in the next month or so you can ask for feedback then, otherwise it’s best to leave it be.

      1. fposte*

        Yup. Closure is internal. If you demand it from a prospective employer, that’s going to come across poorly.

  139. many bells down*

    I’m way down the bottom here, but I have a question about references. I applied to a position that asked applicants to send a resume, cover letter, and “one personal reference”. What I’m wondering is … do they really mean “personal”? It seems odd to ask for a reference right at the beginning; I’d assume they’d ask for professional references if they interviewed me. But I don’t really see the point of a purely personal reference, someone who’s just a friend. I asked a former recent classmate of mine if she’d be a reference, figuring that at least she could speak about my work ethic, but in the end I went with someone I’ve known for 15 years.

    Should I have sent them the classmate, or a co-worker, or my supervisor’s name instead?

    1. CM*

      I’m guessing they really meant “professional reference.” (Personal as in, somebody who has worked with you personally, not someone who is a friend.)

      1. Karo*

        Personal references are totally a thing though. It’s weird, but it happens. I’d probably go with a friend/co-worker, or ask them point blank if that’s really what they want!

    2. Audiophile*

      I’ve seen jobs ask for personal references, but I generally encounter in jobs that involve working with the developmentally disabled.

  140. New Bee*

    I went back to work this week! It went about as well as I could’ve expected:
    –I started back midweek, which was a nice way to ease into the routine, plus I was over the “hump.”
    –I work from home except for fieldwork and meetings, and I’m exclusively working from home for the first couple weeks. The daycare is close to my house, so I can work my way up to full days.
    –My boss and team have expressed profusely how much they’ve missed me and how much the team needs me, which really goes a long way.
    –I scheduled a meeting with my boss (at a nearby cafe) for about an hour after that first day dropoff, and in retrospect it was SO helpful. It gave me a reason to leave (though Baby Bee didn’t cry when I dropped her off so I didn’t stay as long as I’d anticipated), and kept me from going home and wallowing. Would definitely recommend to other returning parents.

    Question for nursing moms: How do you label your pump breaks on your calendar? My HR person suggested I block the times off so I make sure folks don’t schedule over (lots of our team is remote, so we use online scheduling for everything), but I don’t know what to call them.

    Also, for anyone who exclusively breastfeeds the rest of the time, how do you know how much milk to send (in terms of packaging)? She very rarely gets bottles at home, so I’m not sure how I’ll know when her intake increases, and since I have oversupply I’m trying to pack in a way that doesn’t lead to waste (since I produce way more than she eats and they can’t save thawed milk).

    1. KR*

      Not a nursing mom, but can you schedule the breaks as a scheduled phone call or a check in on some obscure made-up project? Or you could label them “unavailable”?

      1. Spoonie*

        I would just be vague with the label. You know what it is, but they don’t need to know. Project Orange or…something that sounds like it could be something viable but not too viable. Acronyms could also work.

      2. New Bee*

        Maybe I’ll try unavailable…on my team calls and such frequently get moved/shifted, so I’m worried that people won’t get that I can’t really move the time. Thanks!

    2. animaniactoo*

      Oversend the milk in the beginning and don’t worry about it – it’s not like you’re running out of it. Work with the daycare to advise you how much she’s taking in, and how much you should continue to send. Always send a little more than she’s currently taking so if she increases, you can increase without ending up with a few days where she went without a little.

      Labeling breaks on the calendar. Would there be an issue with just labelling them “Personal break”?

      1. New Bee*

        Thanks so much! Right now they’re labeled “PB”, so maybe I’ll just leave it as that. I have a lot of backup milk in the freezer, but I already notice a difference in flow when I pump so I want to save those 5 and 6 oz bags for when I really need them! You’re right though; I have to let go of what my lactation consultant calls the “Costco mentality.”

    3. Former Pumper*

      I think I labeled mine as “Private/Unavailable.” And I would send three full ready-made bottles plus I stuck some frozen milk in their freezer (I think two bottles’ worth). I could tell when a growth spurt was about to happen if they ended up thawing any of that for bottles!

      Welcome back to work!

    4. Female-type person*

      Send 4 oz bottles. They won’t re-heat a partial or leftover bottle, so 6 oz bottles can involve a lot of waste.

    5. dawbs*

      Everyone else covered it, but:

      If you don’t freeze the milk, it lasts longer–up until it doesn’t. (the rules on the milk get weird, I know). Regular milk is good for 5 days in the fridge. It’s good for a year in the freezer (debated, but assuming deep freeze)–but once you thaw it, it’s good for 24 hours.
      Since the fresh milk lasts so long (and since it has better antibodies), I didn’t freeze milk every day–I froze at the end of the week. Because fresh milk that’s frozen on day #1 is good in the freezer for a year and then 24 hours….and fresh milk that’s been sitting in the fridge for 5 days, and is frozen on day #5 is good for a year and then 24 hours.
      (I am trying to make that make sense. It does in my head, but, I”m sorry, I’m not sure I”m saying it well)

      If you’re working with a childcare provider who will re-heat bottles, t’s significantly more allowed than people used t think–grandma would do it, daycare would not :)

      If you freeze to much, there are awesome ways to donate (I”m not even going to tell how many bags of milk got sent to the NICU that is a milk bank from me :)–which is probably not on your radar now (because at first hoarding milk tends to be the {understandable!}starting point, but might be on your radar later)

      You may find it’s reasonably easy to do calls and such while pumping–hands free bras are thebomb (and do work even if your electric pump isn’t hands free)–sent a LOT of pump break emails.

      1. New Bee*

        Thanks! Oddly the nearest donation center isn’t close (I say odd because it’s in Major City A which is smaller than Major City B where I live), but I may end up doing so when I can wrap my head around transferring it all.

        I’m definitely checking emails (and sometimes I can even type). Still getting the hang of the hands-free bustier, but I tend to produce pretty quickly so I only need about 10 minutes or so for the actual pumping.

        Any advice on cleanup and parts storage when I eventually have to pump at an office?

        1. dawbs*

          THe MOST useful pumping piece of advice (which I forgot to mention) was that, remember how milk is good for a a week in the fridge?
          That means your pump parts are clean enough to use all day.
          You CAN wash them every time you pump–or you can stick them in a giant ziploc, shove them into the fridge, and use them all day and just clean them when you get home at night (I was doing 4-10s with a 1 hour+ commute when I started back, this made me SO so happy). You may need to wipe them or rinse them between, because sometimes the milk residue makes them weirdly textured/slippy/hard to describe but messes with the seal.

          I’d also say it’s a good idea to buy a 2nd set of parts (which, uh, may be something you end up doing the first time you forget the parts at home and just have the pump :)
          I would literally walk in the door and hand the ziploc of dirty parts to my husband (who kindly washed them for us), put milk bags in the fridge (or freezer. FWIW, freeze them laying flat, they stand up better frozen if you do), feed the baby, grab the ziploc of the 2ndary clean pump parts for tomorrow and be set.

          If you DO need to sterilize while at the office (I did once drop the pump parts into a corner of the floor that horrified me), you can get the ‘steam sterilize bags’–each can be used 20 times, so you can literally do that in the office microwave: https://www.amazon.com/Medela-Quick-Clean-Micro-Steam-Count/dp/B000096QQ5.

          Also, keep extra membranes with the pump. If you’re annoyed that you’re not getting milk or not getting a let down timely, just replace those guys. Assume they’re getting microtears you can’t see and change them periodically.

          And at some point, when baby gets bigger, be aware that your pumping timings may need to change. I think it went, when I started back to work at 6 weeks, I pumped on the car ride in at 7 (pumping and driving, awesome time save. Hands free, use a cover, completely invisible. Since I had a long drive, I could do a double pump), then once at work at 11:30, 2:30ish 5ish, then feed the baby at 7:30/8.
          A few months later, it looked like: pump while driving, then at work at 11 and 6. Each session was longer, but I made pretty close to the same amount of milk.

          YOu’ll figure it out, it somehow starts to make sense more as you’re doing it.

        2. Tandar*

          I pumped for my two kids, one of them exclusively, so I have a lot of pump experience. For cleanup and parts storage in the office it really helps to know that you do not need to do a full cleaning each time you pump. If you’re pumping for donation, the rules are different, but generally it’s sufficient to rinse the parts with hot water and let dry between sessions. Then when you get home you can do a full soapy water wash/run through dishwasher. I kept a ziploc baggie in my pump bag for storing parts and let them dry on a towel in my desk drawer.

          All the pumping moms at my office tend to just label their pump breaks as some version of “private appointment.”

          I had to send prepared bottles to daycare, so I sent 3 oz bottles at first and went to 4 oz shortly after. I also sent an extra 2 oz “snack” bottle sometimes in case baby wanted a little more. If the snack bottle got used more than a couple days in a row, I bumped up the size of the regular bottles. I also labeled the bottles “1” “2” “3” and so on so that when I was rotating thawed frozen milk in, those bottles would be used first. Some babies are pickier, so you do not want to wait until 6 or 9 months to find out if baby is willing to drink thawed milk.

          1. dawbs*

            you can also discover things like lipase vary from woman to woman.
            I produce excessive lipase, apparently. Which means my milk, if it’s been frozen, smells, as Mr. Dawbs would say “like milk with a side of fish”. It was *fine*. It was not bad. The baby drank it without a problem. But…not all babies will drink it. (and , since they blend from multiple women and pasteurize, the milk bank didn’t care)
            So yes, definitely try some frozen sooner rather than later.

    6. Sualah*

      Honestly, I label it pumping. My coworkers sitting around me know what I’m doing, and putting as pumping makes sure anyone else checking my calendar can see it’s an appointment that can’t be shuffled around too much.

  141. JB*

    Hi,

    I need some help with international travel, please. I’m traveling to Bangalore for several weeks for work this summer. Can anyone help with any cultural issues I should be aware of? Does anyone have any travel tips for Bangalore in general? I’m really excited about the opportunity, both career wise and personally. I don’t want to embarrass myself or my team. I’m female, in the US, and work for a large multinational company. We have data analytics teams in India and other countries around the world.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I lived in India for almost a year when I was in college. It was amazing and I hope you have fun. Some random tips, in no particular order:

      – Dress conservatively, with shoulders and upper chest especially covered. Suits and pantsuits are totally acceptable, but in general I’d avoid plunging necklines or above the knee skirts.
      – The level of poverty can be mind-blowing. Just be prepared. There’s slums, and there’s lepers, and there’s grinding human misery.
      – Avoid pointing at people with a finger.
      – Indians often don’t like to say no or be unhelpful. If you ask directions of someone in the street, they may give you very vague directions instead of saying “I don’t know.”
      – Tipping isn’t done, except for railway porters.
      – Punctuality is relative. Expect people to run late, even for business meetings, and especially for personal engagements. 30-40 minutes is typical, an hour isn’t unheard of.
      – A liquid, ambiguous wobble of the head is a common gesture. It means anything from “maybe” to “probably not” to “you’re pissing me off” to “it’s up to God” to “ain’t my problem, lady.” It’s a masterpiece of contextual communication and you’ll have to interpret it as you go.
      – You will probably not have to eat with your hands, which is customary in India and traditional – but most business contexts will provide western silverware. If you do, use your right hand, regardless of which hand is dominant. The left hand is considered unclean, as it’s used to wash oneself after defecating.
      – Don’t ask to or offer to share drinking or eating vessels/utensils – saliva is considered to make things unclean.
      – Bring business cards. All of them. Exchanging business cards is done in just about every professional interaction, and even some personal ones. Make it rain.
      – Don’t touch small children on the head. It’s considered disrespectful.
      – Most Indian houses are shoes-off places.

      1. INeedANap*

        This is random, but I love your writing.

        “A liquid, ambiguous wobble of the head is a common gesture.”

        I could picture this gesture perfectly in my head the way you described it, but I could never have articulated it so clearly.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Thanks! It’s such a fascinating gesture. And it seems to mean everything.

      2. Rincat*

        I lived in Bangalore for 3 months about 10 years ago, right after I graduated college. This is a great list! I’d also add that for dressing conservatively, cover your butt. I was instructed to wear tunic length tops or wrap a jacket around my waist if I was wearing tight fitting pants.

        There are TONS of street dogs everywhere, and I am a Super Dog Lover, so naturally I want to hug all the dogs. These animals are considered dirty and gross, so I got made fun of and reprimanded when I pet a puppy once (and let him lick my hands). If you love dogs, sadly you must resist this urge.

        It’s rude to refuse food if offered unless you have a medical condition or something, so if you visit people in their homes, expect to have things offered to you and eat some of it. Sweets are extremely sweet and they caught me off guard.

    2. Rincat*

      I forgot one – toilets! Most toilets I encountered were Western style, but sometimes they did not have toilet paper – there was a bidet or a hose you used to spray yourself off. I carried a little package of Kleenex around with me because I just gotta use toilet paper. Most places had toilet paper so it wasn’t an issue, but every now and then they wouldn’t. I also used an in-floor squat style toilet once at a rest stop in the middle of nowhere, so practice your balancing. :)

  142. the cake is a pie*

    Any advice for developing a thicker skin at work? I’m that deadly combo of sensitive and a people pleaser, and I’d like to get better at letting negativity or criticism wash over me (while absorbing any legit feedback, of course). I’ve gotten better thanks to gaining years of experience and just getting older but does anyone have advice or techniques that have helped with not letting things get to you?

    1. Lady Dedlock*

      This might sound weird, but I think of my work personality and my “real” personality as somewhat separate. In real life, I am a sensitive, emotional person who cries easily. At work, I basically try to display as little personality as possible. I’m just here to do a job, and I want to get through with a minimum of trouble and personal entanglement. That guardedness generally helps me keep an even keel at work, even when lesser things would have reduced me to tears at home.

      Depending on who’s criticizing, it may also help to remember that they likely have no idea how to do your job. It’s human to make mistakes. And it’s unlikely that whoever’s criticizing you would do everything perfectly in your position. Some people are just mean. That doesn’t mean they’re right.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      If you want to do some examples, I’m game.
      It’s tough to know what to tell you without knowing the particulars.

      I guess the number one thing I did was remind myself that there is a difference between being told that I made a mistake on a report and being told that I am fat/ugly/hated. There’s a huge difference.

      I think reading about setting boundaries helped me in some ways. Part of that super sensitivity is covertly knowing that I have failed to stand up for ME. So it’s a double whammy what is actually said PLUS my own failure to EFFECTIVELY stand up for myself. Which brings me to my next idea…

      How about reading up on dealing with difficult people? If we don’t learn this as kids or young adults, we won’t learn it unless we deliberately sit down and read a book.

      Make sure you are getting plenty of rest. Bare bones, in the middle of your work week go to bed early that night. It’s amazing how fatigue makes it so much harder to deal with stuff.

      If possible use your commute home time to autopsy one or two of the situations that happened each day. What did you do that you liked? Where do you think you could have done something different? Line up a response for what you will say if you hear that comment again.

      Counter-intuitively, it hurts less if we express things out loud. Someone explains something to you, make sure you say thanks for helping. The boss asks you about a mistake jump on taking ownership right away by apologizing and volunteering to fix it. Don’t give yourself a minute to think about it , own it out loud before you have a chance to beat yourself up over it. It’s amazing how different we can feel when we do this.

  143. Kracken*

    Just need to vent- I have a coworker who talks nonstop and it’s driving me crazy. I don’t mind conversation but she is basically narrating every thought she has. And she’s loud.

    She also asks the sameness basic questions over and over again, each to like 3 different people. Yesterday she asked our receptionist, coworker, and manager if a document was signed. It was signed. There was a signature on it. Which every single person pointed out and she still couldn’t accept. We get these documents every day, and she used to process them so it’s not like this thing was out of the ordinary at all.

    I have headphones but I’d prefer to just work with silence or quiet background conversation. Ugh it’s so frustrating.

  144. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    I just found out that my company is moving 6 miles away from its current location. Normally, no big deal, but the main reason I took my job was because it made my commute 2.2 miles of biking on the beach. The new location means I have to get on the freeway, so biking there wouldn’t be possible (without a 10 mile detour). So now I have to spend 30+ minutes in the car in rush hour instead of 15 minutes biking on the beach. I’m super bummed.

    4. KR*

      Is there a bus you could take from the beach to your new office? A lot of public buses have bike racks.

    5. PollyQ*

      In some places at least, Google maps will provide bike routes. You could check and see if that turns up something workable.

  145. JobSeeker017*

    Rolling interviews?

    Early last week, a hiring manager and I played phone tag about scheduling a time for a brief interview. Her phone message made it sound as though she was eager to speak with me quickly, so I responded immediately and we scheduled a time to talk.

    She informed me immediately that she was interviewing on a rolling basis and that the position was new, had no clear hiring timeline, and no specific goals for it. We spoke for about 10 minutes, and her last question–that she nearly forgot to ask–was about salary. I previously served in a C-suite position and earned substantially more than the salary range, but I said I was open to negotiation for the good cause this nonprofit supported.

    An automated rejection letter from this organization arrived in my inbox today. It didn’t specify why I am not moving forward in the process, but I am curious if it’s about the salary, my responses to the questions, or another reason.

    Because the interviews for this new position are being conducted on a rolling basis, is it worth giving this rejection much thought?

    Thanks for reading. I would appreciate any feedback you care to provide.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I’m guessing it’s not worth giving it any more thought than any other rejection. It could be anything. Maybe it was salary, maybe they hired someone else on Tuesday. I don’t think it being a rolling process says anything other than them not wanting to nail down a time-frame.

  146. Mrs. Boo*

    Ghosting: I swear, I feel like I’m losing my damn mind sometimes, but I’ve applied for at least 25-30 positions over the last year and only heard back – as in thanks but no thanks – TWICE. No other communication whatsoever. Is this the norm now? I’ve been out of the job market for a while (practiced law in a small firm for 13 years) . It’s incredibly frustrating to send in application after application and then …. nothing.

    1. Manders*

      Yeah, I think that ratio is probably about normal. If you’re applying to legal positions, I think it’s probably even more likely, because the people who hire for legal positions usually aren’t trained as managers and they just want to finish the hiring process quickly so they can get back to their normal work.

      It sucks! It really does.

    3. AFRC*

      Unfortunately, yes. I’ve sent out hundreds and only gotten a handful – usually only when they want to interview me. It’s pretty crappy.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Having been on the flipside of it, though, I’ve gotten 150 applications for one position. Unless you were on the shortlist, it’s really hard – bordering on impractical – to acknowledge every single one. My system lets me send out a “thanks for your application, but we have moved forward with another candidate” form email to everyone, and that’s about as far as I can reasonably go.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq*

          Yeah, it’s probably best to try not to think of it as ghosting at the application stage at all – ghosting is about disappearing mid-dialogue, and I don’t think there’s really a dialogue with an employer until you get to the first interview stage. There are just so many people going for these positions these days I can’t imagine anyone not using an automated system could keep up. I just talked to a friend who was hiring a fourth full-time attorney for their firm – they had an ad up for one month and got 83 applications. I once interviewed for a federal job that had over 1200 applicants.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            Exactly. This isn’t ghosting at all, it’s a non-response.

            1. MegaMoose, Esq*

              I once had a potential employer stop communicating after a phone interview, an in-person interview, and a second phone interview, all scheduled very last-minute. They did email me several months later to ask if I was interested in interviewing for a different job. I said no. Politely.

              1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

                “Dear Company,

                LOLHELLNAW

                – Megamoose”

    4. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Fourthed that this is entirely normal – you are not losing your mind! Don’t expect a rejection unless you make it to interview stage. Then it is very standard.

    5. margarets*

      Ugh, yes. It does seem to be the norm.

      That said, I complained last week about getting a second, more detailed “thanks but no thanks” email. I think a lot of companies/people have no clue what they are doing.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Why would you complain about getting a second email?

        1. margarets*

          Because it’s overkill.

          Imagine the reverse. Candidate sends one brief email turning down a job offer. Then follows up weeks later with a more detailed explanation for why they rejected the offer.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            Fair, but I feel like there’s nothing you can do, as a hiring person, to avoid hurting someone’s feelings.

            1. fposte*

              I don’t think anybody has ever asked for a second rejection email, though. This just sounds like a procedural glitch that it was unpleasant to be on the receiving end of.

    6. Scarlott*

      10% is typical. Out of 150 or so applications over the past two years (most while I was unemployed, and then some while I was working a “lesser” job), I maybe had 15 interviews. Some also sent automated rejection letters through taleo

    7. KR*

      Ugh I’m just coming out of a job search and I probably put out 30-50 applications. One got to the interview stage, and then I got the job I have now but the rest didn’t get back to me even with a “Thanks, but no thanks.”. I feel your pain.

  147. Qwerty*

    We have a newish hire at my office who I cannot stand! She whines constantly and her work is really subpar despite getting more training than most of the people on our team got. She’s rude and judgmental and doesn’t follow directions. She’s also already called in sick multiple times despite the fact that she hasn’t worked here long. Sigh…

    2. Emi.*

      She sounds really annoying, but I don’t think it’s fair to blame her for getting sick. The rest of it, definitely.

  148. Althea*

    I’ve been wondering if I expected too much from this job candidate, or if he was kinda off in how he handled things.

    We just finished a round of hiring for a Teapot Associate, unsuccessfully. It’s an entry level position in a high cost of living area, and “entry level” actually means having a couple years of experience working in internships or something equivalent.

    We had one solid candidate whose salary expectations were in line with the job. He was strong in one major area of job, but quite weak in other important but smaller pieces of the job. Compared to our other TA, he would have come in with less experience. So, we offered him low-mid part of the range, about the industry average, with flexibility to go up to about mid-range. He would still be lower than the starting salary of our other TA.

    He countered, saying that our benefits were very expensive and his commuting costs are high. He said he needed the top of his range or even above his previously named range to consider the job. That would mean he would be making more than our other TA, and at the top of the range for the industry. And it was 10%-20% above our offer.

    We countered and gave our firm number, and he turned it down.

    I keep thinking about his counter, and I don’t understand what he was thinking. Maybe he really had other offers that were a lot better and above-average. But who counters with 10-20% above the offer for an entry level? And needing the top of his own range, even though his experience does not fill out the job description? And asking, potentially, for an amount above his own previously stated range? I’ve been wondering if he was coached to act this way, expecting to be low-balled, and not expecting us to have a firm range in ind… I don’t know. Am I just overthinking?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Depending on the salary, I don’t think 10-20% (as long as it was in the range you listed) is crazy. I wouldn’t have hesitated, even at my first job, to try to negotiate from $30,000 to $33,000.

    2. Manders*

      He might have asked for a bit much, but I’d also take a serious look at what you’re paying and how you’re describing the job. It sounds like you’re calling it “entry-level” when it’s not; I don’t know how normal that is in your area. Also, the tricky thing about high-COL areas is that COL can change a *lot* in a short period of time. Find a chart of average rents for a 1 bedroom apartment in your area over time–were they much lower when your other TA was hired?

      I may be projecting a bit here, but I live in an area where average rents have risen 10% per year for the last few years, and there’s no rent control. Someone who owns their own house and hasn’t hired in a few years could definitely be caught off guard by how much the local COL has changed.

      1. Althea*

        It is entry-level for the industry. It’s expected to have work-like experience for at least a year before getting your first full-time paid position. High COL could be an issue… we have data on average salaries in our industry and area, but it would tend to be a little behind as all data is. The other person was hired just 1.5 years ago, though, so I hope things aren’t changing THAT fast!

    3. Whats In A Name*

      I think part of you is overthinking and part of it could be him doing math and coming up with a number he actually needs to make the job work. That doesn’t mean it’s reasonable or in line with your needs and the position. When I was looking at my first jobs (likely for the first few years of my career) I had a number in my head for ME – not the position or what they might be sacrificing in skill when making me the offer (I mean, they were making me the offer – I must be what they want even if I am missing X skill, right?!?!?!).

      I realize now that’s ridiculous thinking but just some insight into how he was thinking. Or he could have a self-inflated ego but more likely he is at “I need X” without taking position or his experience vs. another employee’s into account. Does that make sense?

      There is one job that gave me boatloads of experience and it was my dream job (ended up getting laid off) but I never should have taken it because the salary wasn’t what I needed it to be and I had to go into debt to pay my basic bills for awhile (finally got a 2nd job).

    4. SophieChotek*

      I see what you are saying, but I also think what Manders and WhatsinaName have some valid points too. Now maybe you candidate really does just have an over-inflated ego and sense of his own value.
      But it could be also he has rent/car payments/utitilities, etc. and he’s done his math and really he cannot afford to make less than X just to make ends meet.

      Like WhatsinaName wrote, I applied to a job I would have loved to have had, and I am sure I didn’t get it for any reasons, but I think it hurt that I really wanted to make the top range of their salary — which was less than what I make now. On the one hand, I would have considered it anyway, if they’d offered, since I want to move on to Current Job, but I would have “lost” money to make the move…

      That said, if he didn’t have the skill set you needed (or all of it) then wasn’t the right fit.
      (Confused b the math though, he only asked for 10 to 20% more and that was more than current TA? Then his top range wasn’t very far up anyway…? Too tired to do this math…)

      1. Althea*

        So our range was about 50-60 and his stated range need was the same. We offered 52 with flexibility to 54, because he came in low in experience in several areas and we considered him low-to-mid level in experience overall. The other TA started at 56.

        His counter was 57-61. We considered trying to push to 55, but in the end decided it didn’t make sense to start him that high, and we’d still have a significant gap.

        1. Manders*

          So I looked at the cost of rent in my area, and average rent for a one-bedroom went from $1,728 to $1,946 in 1.5 years. So the COL in your area could *possibly* have risen by several thousand dollars in that time period if the rental market is really hot.

          It’s still totally possible that he was asking for too much and he needs to lower his expectations. It’s also possible that the other TA would require a higher starting salary if you were hiring him today.

          1. Ann O.*

            I don’t understand this comment. If the hired TA would require a higher starting salary if starting today, wouldn’t that mean the hired TA would require a promotion to that salary? I feel like I’m missing the logic people are giving for the relevance of COL rising.

        2. NaoNao*

          I know a lot of people consider 50k to be a very reasonable salary for entry level and it *kind of* is, but when I took a job for 50k it worked out to be actually more like 35k after taxes. That’s 3000 dollars a month in a town where rent on a one bedroom could be as high as 2000 a month. Add in utilities, transportation costs, food, personal care, phone, internet, school loans—I was struggling to have any money left over after my paycheck each pay period and I was in a *steal* of an apartment. High COL areas aren’t just about rent. It’s also expensive to take public transp (6$ a day for a to and from pass), it’s expensive to eat out or entertain yourself, and keeping up with the Joneses is pricey too. So…while 50k sounds like a lot, I too would have pushed for closer to 60, because that can make the difference in a very tight budget.

          1. Althea*

            This seems backward to me, though. If his skills aren’t worth $60k in this market, they aren’t worth $60k and employers won’t pay that. So he’d have to live with roommates if things are too expensive. It’s not up to the employer to calibrate to some minimum (except the minimum wage) but to calculate the value the person brings to the employer and compete with other employers for talent…

  149. Quaker Banker*

    I am a newish manager, and I am experiencing a situation with an employee that I have not encountered before. Any helpful suggestions in how to handle this situation would be appreciated!

    I have a direct report who has been with my company for nearly 6 months. She is in a teller/customer service position, so the job does require basic banking knowledge, but generally speaking, people pick up on that part of the job within their first 3 months of employment. The main skill needed in this job is the ability to communicate well with people and to treat customers well.

    I noticed early on that she was struggling to understand and explain basic concepts to customers. I assumed that she did not have a good understanding of banking in general, so I assigned her online courses and resources that would help her to gain that knowledge. She and I had a meeting after she completed the courses and read through the resources that I had given her. We discussed what she had learned, I answered some additional questions that she had, and she seemed to have a good understanding of things by the end of our meeting.

    I am now thinking that the issue was never knowledge, and that it is actually a general comprehension problem. In several instances, she has asked myself or another coworker a question (both in person and via email), and then she had reiterated the answer that was given to her, but she said something that is the complete opposite of what she was told when she reiterated. When the the person who she was speaking to tried to correct her and re-explain their answer, she still didn’t understand what she was being told. When she tries to help customers, it takes her an extremely long time to comprehend what the customer is needing to know/wanting to be done. Its almost painful to hear her interacting with customers. For example, on one instance, a customer wanted a statement. She called me (I work at a different branch) to ask me what the customer meant. When I replied that the customer probably wanted his/her monthly bank statement, she said, “You mean like what the bank mails you each month?” I wasn’t physically there, but I can imagine that the customer was dumbfounded. I have been told that it takes her roughly 10 minutes just to help customers on the phone (again, I don’t work at her branch regularly, and when I have been there, I haven’t observed it myself), because she has to ask the customers 100 questions to try to figure out what is being asked. I have also noticed that if something comes up where the customer’s question happens to be phrased the same way that it is phrased in her notes, that she can usually answer the question. It is almost like she needs everything to be scripted to her notes, and if it isn’t, she can’t analyze and comprehend what is being asked. I do know that customers are not always clear, and sometimes, you do have to ask questions to get a little more information, but when you cannot figure out what a customer means by asking for a statement, I don’t think it is an issue with the customer being confusing. She also can’t understand the concept of why doing the same transaction twice will make her cash drawer out of balance. This has come up 3 separate times now, and she still doesn’t get it. Its kind of bizarre.

    How do I address this? I feel that its rude and hurtful to say “I notice that you have trouble comprehending day-to-day questions and concepts”, but I feel that I need to be direct in addressing this issue, mostly because being direct is good, but also because if I am wishy-washy, I have no doubt in my mind that this employee will be confused about our conversation. How would you all address this?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Do you think that she can become competent at the job?

      If not, I think the conversation is about what you need from someone in this role (including, “I need the person in this role to be able to resolve nearly all customer conversations without support from a manager or another staff person.”). If she can’t meet those expectations, then you will not be able to keep her on.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Honestly? I’d address it by letting her go. Or putting her on a formal PIP, but I don’t think that’d work.

      “In this role, we need someone who can quickly and easily answer clients’ questions about banking and financial issues, and we don’t feel that your performance in that area is meeting our clients’ needs. Also, because we’re a financial institution, we need a very high level of accuracy and accountability, and your cash drawer is frequently off due to duplicate transactions.”

    3. animaniactoo*

      Honestly, I would be clear “You seem to have issues with understanding requests unless they are phrased a specific way. In order to do this job, you need to be able to understand the substance of the request, even when asked in a different way or with different words.”

      And then carry on with whatever else you need to say around that.

    4. Channel Z*

      As a customer, I would be frustrated with a teller who couldn’t answer basic questions

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Rather than saying trouble comprehending, etc, say, “Jane, most tellers who have been here x amount of time are able to handle general questions from customers. You have been here this amount of time and I noticed that you are still wrestling with questions such as A, B and C. I am not sure how we can help you further.’

      She probably will have some circular explanation that really is not an explanation.

      Then you can say that you are going to set up a time frame for improvement or that you have to let her go. If you decide to tell her you have to let her go, you can preface with, “Well, Jane, not every job is for everybody. Bank work is not for everyone. We really need someone who can handle questions like A, B and C plus do other things.”

    6. Belle di Vedremo*

      Rex Stout, how nice to see you here! You’ll be glad to know that Lily Rowan is a regular poster.

      A non-banker Quaker ;)

    7. Mrs. Fenris*

      I’d cut your losses and let her go, honestly. My field uses a lot of very skilled support staff, some with formal training and some with just on-the-job training. I’ve worked with several who just cannot get it. Ever. The end. Including a couple who went through a formal program and apparently managed to pass their classes. No amount of re-explaining or remedial training got through to them. The way your employee can only handle stuff that is exactly according to the script sounds very familiar.

  150. Promotion while interviewing*

    I’m in the later stage of interviews for a position I’m excited about. The new company has my salary history and requirements. I just got confirmation of a (long long overdue) promotion at my current company with a significant raise. I want to continue the interview process and hope that it leads to an offer. I feel like I need to let them know about my new circumstances. Am I crazy? If not, any advice on how to frame it?

    1. Whats In A Name*

      I think you should let them know, too. Is you next interview scheduled yet? If so, can you tell them then? I think it shows that you have value and a promotion (to me) also shows upward movements, which is always a good thing.

      Maybe “I feel like it would only be fair that I let you know my current company promoted me to Teapot Vice President as a result of my strengths at tasks A B & C. The promotion came with a higher salary $X and increased responsibility in Y. I am still very interested in the position at your company and continuing our discussion but I did want to let you know up front.”

      I just don’t want it to sound like you were using them to get a promotion or raise.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        That last bit is the issue that has to be finessed. Would it work to maybe phrase it as, “I received a promotion since I provided my salary history and requirements, and I wanted to let you know about that change and reiterate that I’m still extremely interested in being considered for this position.”

        1. Promotion while interviewing*

          Thanks to you both! You guys landed on exactly why I feel like I should tell them and on why it’s a bit tricky. I appreciate the suggestions!!

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      From personal experience, I would let them know. This happened to me in my current role. Between the initial application stage and the final interview (several months), I was given a promotion and a decent raise but neglected to tell my interviewer. When the new company presented me with the offer, they thought it would be something I was excited about but instead it ended up only being minimally above what I was currently making. I countered, which surprised them, and I didn’t get as far in negotiations as I think I might have had they known about my promotion/raise beforehand.

      1. Promotion while interviewing*

        Thank you thank you!! That’s my concern exactly. It helps to hear your experience. Much appreciated!

  151. fluxinsight*

    I told my boss during our weekly check-in that I’m ready to leave my job. I asked her to fire me and that I may leave if I get another job lined up. She agreed that things were not going well and agreed to start the process for termination (I work for a federal agency). I’m obviously concerned about the future but I’m relieved that I took this step. I already had some interviews and contacted a former employer for a consulting job. Does anyone experience something similar? Any advice?

      1. fluxinsight*

        I live in Maryland so I can’t collect unemployment benefits if I resign. It’s different if you’re fired (as long you’re not fired for serious misconduct).

  152. jamlady*

    In 3 hours I have a panel interview with state government. It’s been a really stressful week and I honestly sound/look terrible. Plus I looked up potential interview questions on Glassdoor and it feels like I’m about to head into an oral exam to argue my dissertation. Ahhhh!

    2. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I’ve done a ton of panel interviews with state government, and I’ve really never felt like I was being examined, although I never had to defend a dissertation so I suppose I have no point of reference. Mostly they just take turns asking pre-determined questions and I’m never sure who I’m supposed to make eye-contact with at any given moment. I’m sure you’ll be fine!

    3. jamlady*

      Oh man. It was not great haha

      Everyone basically treated me like a prison inmate they were uncomfortable looking in the eye. They didn’t say a word the entire time and only one of them spoke at the end when I asked my questions and it honestly felt like would have rather been anywhere else. This reception flustered me (not usual for me), and the very weirdly/vaguely worded questions really threw me. I was already not excited for this interview (I make a lot more than the position can offer and the commute is pretty terrible), but it is a stable permanent job – very rare for my field, so I figured I’d give it a shot.

      Oh well! Another notch in the experience post. I’ll be better prepared next time lol

  153. Anxa*

    I am going to look into more academic focused sites about this, but this isn’t really pure academia so here we go:

    My SO is a research fellow at a semi-academic/semi-government satellite institute in a suburban/metro area. It’s 20 mins away from our apartment in a city that has a lot going on, but not really for my industry.

    We live about 40 to 50 mins by car from two large cities with lots of schools and even some industry. Both of those are in the opposite direction from SOs work. In order for me to volunteer in those cities, we’re looking at 6am wake ups (I am not a morning person) and expensive transit (having to hope from different authorities’ lines). And then having to realign options every semester.

    There are some projects I would be interested on working on at his workplace as a volunteer if they open up. Only a few of the projects would give me a chance to improve the skills I’m most interested in (molecular biology, data analysis). But the other options require a very heavy investment in time and commuting costs. I really don’t want to be wasting our money chasing what feels to be more of a fantasy than a dream every year, but I also know that you need to take risks to get rewards (I’m just, so, so burned out on spinning wheels).

    How weird do you think it would be to apply to volunteer at his research lab?

    I feel like it’s probably no big deal because:
    -The field of science my SO is known to be pretty relaxed
    -I’ve worked alongside a PI’s wife on the bench quite a bit
    -While I don’t have an impressive resume or background, I do have the skills to do the work
    -It’s volunteering, not paid
    -People seem to like me
    -It seems kind of like a natural thing to do given that in our immediate area there are limited opportunities and we only moved here so that my SO could do his fellowship

    But I worry that:
    -I won’t be taken as seriously because I may seem like more of a or helper or citizen scientist than someone looking to contribute and sharpen skills
    -There are better fits in terms of research projects
    -The network is small
    -They may only accept competitive internship applications or volunteers for unskilled work
    -I don’t want to seem super awkward
    -I worry about looking out of touch and like I’m glomming on
    -I’m 30 and still trying to do undergraduate style internships

      1. Anxa*

        He seems to think it’s fine, but he also doesn’t seem to understand my concerns at all. I’ve only mentioned it once and I think we have to revisit it. It’s hard for us to talk about career related issues because he doesn’t understand how I’m having such a hard time finding something that sticks.

        I think he wants a second car. I don’t think I would qualify for a car loan, and I don’t want him going into more debt. I don’t want to commit to a car until I make at least 15K a year, but I’m not sure how to make that much without a car. Catch 22.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I think you’re overthinking it a little. Yes, you’ll probably be viewed as a helper or citizen scientist, but that’s not incompatible with contributing and sharpening your skills – some poor grad student will probably be overjoyed. Fit of the project isn’t that relevant, because frankly I think you’ll be contributing bench skills, not planning and guiding. And I really doubt lab help is competitive; I worked in one of the top metagenomics labs in the country and half our volunteers were retired engineers from the community who were bored off their trees sitting at home reading the paper.

      And please don’t take this an insult, but the rest is your insecurity speaking. It’ll be awkward if you make it so. You’ll seem out of touch and like you’re glomming on if you give that impression. If you’re insecure about doing undergrad style internships, insecurity itself will be contributing more to that perception than your presence will.

      We accepted volunteers at my lab all the time on an informal basis. One of ’em ended up applying for the program and getting a PhD at age 60. Their assistance was hugely valued. Don’t overthink it.

  154. margarets*

    Question: Why do people show up at networking events expecting to be immediately hooked up with a job? And then when it doesn’t happen, they decide networking is a waste of time.

    I go to a monthly networking event in my field and it really suffers from this. There are some regulars, thankfully, but the one-offs can be a bit draining to talk to.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Bluh, this happened to me the other day. A student at my alma mater emailed me asking for an informational interview, and then point-blank asked “So what kind of jobs do you think you can get me?”

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Right? I was like, “I don’t think you get what information interviews are. Let me explain that. One thing it’s not is letting someone buy you a cup of coffee and then asking for a job.”

      2. Hrovitnir*

        Gah, that is so rude I physically cringed. I do not understand how it’s possible to be that self-absorbed.

    2. Not Karen*

      Because no one teaches you how to network, and it doesn’t come naturally to everyone.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Yeah, but there’s enough resources out there on networking that expectations should be at least reasonable.

    3. Whats In A Name*

      Also a pet peeve of mine.

      Last summer I presented at a monthly networking meeting I attend and told them to start looking at networking as a way to build and foster relationships. The referrals/sales/job/whatever would come organically. Networking is not a one-and-done and the sooner these people figure it out the better.

  155. Ashley*

    I recently agreed to be a Transplant Support Person for my close friend who has kidney failure. This means that I will be his complete caregiver from the moment the call comes in that there’s an organ, all the way through the recovery period. That’s a minimum of 5 weeks off work. This role is considered so important that the hospital does not allow someone to be on the transplant list unless they have someone committed as their support person. He’s on a 5 year wait list, but organs can’t just be given in order. If his perfect match comes in tomorrow he’ll get the call. Obviously I place this obligation above any work one, but how do I tell my employer that I may need to take a sudden 5 weeks off work, within the next 5 years? I also don’t see myself working at my current job 5 years from now, at what point do I tell a new employer this?

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      5 weeks off, at any time, sometime between now and 2023 is a lot to ask of an employer for anything short of maternity leave or a serious illness of your own. And this is not, as far as I know, covered by FMLA, so they’re not under any obligation to keep you in your position when you take this leave, either.

      If I was your employer, I’d be very surprised, bordering on irritated, that you hadn’t asked this before making that commitment. That ship having sailed, I would approach this very carefully, because both you and your employer will be in an awkward position. I’d bring it up as soon as negotiations on salary and benefits get serious if you move to a new job.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I completely agree. I also think you have to be prepared to leave your job over this. As in, you can mention it and ask if there are any options, but I would be very surprised if any options beyond unpaid leave exist (you wouldn’t be eligible for short-term disability, for instance). Would it be possible/feasible for you to take all of your vacation at once and then several weeks unpaid? The thing is, they’re not obligated to hold your job for you for those five weeks. Best case scenario: they say yes and you can use vacation plus unpaid leave. Pretty good case scenario: they say yes and it’s all unpaid. Worst case scenario: they say absolutely not.

      2. Ashley*

        I didn’t just accept a job. I’ve been with this company for almost 4 years and made the commitment to the transplant fairly recently.

        1. Temperance*

          Does he have anyone else who can act as a caregiver? Is it possible to have a daytime nurse, and then you go to work?

        2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          How long you’ve been there doesn’t really affect my point; it’s a lot to ask of your employer, especially when presented as a fait accompli, and you’ll probably have to leave your job to fulfill that commitment.

    2. Temperance*

      Did you talk to your company about this? My concern is that you have no “right” to take off so much time to care for a friend. You could get FMLA if he was a family member or spouse, and that would CYA if you were at your workplace for at least a year.

    3. Thlayli*

      Well done on making such an awesome commitment to your friend. It sounds like your commitment could literally be the difference between life and death for him/her.

      If you have a good relationship with your boss I suggest being honest. Tell her the situation and that it could happen any time in next 5 years with zero warning. Make clear that you understand that this will have negative impact on her and your coworkers and that you’re sorry about that, but that without this commitment your friend will literally die (also savour the pleasure of getting to use the phrase “literally die” correctly since that doesn’t happen often). If you’re really close you could even mention that you realise that this could mean losing your job but that you put your friends life ahead of your job.

      Once you’ve laid out the negatives tell her you want to work with her to come up with a plan to minimise the impact. Ask about keeping back annual leave till the end of the leave cycle (e.g. If it’s Jan-Dec then plan to take most of December off that way you will always have leave available). You will probably need a bit of unpaid leave too. Suggest ways you could limit the impact on your colleagues e.g. A document you have ready to go at alll times with info they would need for handover of projects (which you update every week for example). Then you can just mail on that document when u get the call. Ask her for ideas too e.g. What would she do if u got hit by a truck and were out for 5 weeks.

      On the other hand if you do not have a good relationship with your boss, and particularly if telling her this would jeopardise your job, I would say nothing at all. If it happens before you leave your current job then worry about it then. No point risking getting fired over something that might not even happen.

      Well done again you are awesome.

      1. Thlayli*

        after I posted this I realised my joke about getting to use the phrase “literally die” correctly could come across as callous. Sorry that wasn’t my intention.

        Well done again

    4. Wishing I had you in my life*

      Just wanted to say that you’re an amazing person for committing to this.

  156. Bend & Snap*

    Okay long story but my company merged with another company.

    I was hired in at job classification Pro5, let’s say. And then got promoted to Job3 on a different ladder. And now they juggled everyone’s titles (thousands of people) and I’m on the Pro track and my classification is Pro5 again, like my promotion never happened, because of how the titles translate back and forth.

    I’ve flagged for my boss but is this par for the course with mergers?

    1. CAA*

      Yeah, this stuff happens during mergers. Did they do away with the Job3 ladder altogether and merge it into the Pro5 ladder? If they did, you should have a good case for getting to Pro6 pretty quickly, but you need your manager to go to bat for you. The exceptions would be if they bumped everyone who was a Pro5 down to Pro4 and left you at Pro5; or if they completely did away with the old Pro6 level and put all those people at Pro5.

      If there are thousands of people who were affected, there will be some injustices and it will take a while to get them all straightened out. I hope it happens quickly for you.

      1. Bend & Snap*

        Thank you. Basically a lot of people got moved from management to ICs due to structural requirements and I was one of them.

        I did just chat with my absolutely wonderful boss though and he’s going to help me figure it out with HR.

  157. Book Keep*

    I had an internal interview today and it went fairly well. However, in the days leading up to the interview, I kept coming back to the question of whether I wanted to continue in the field.

    I originally worked in communications and made the transition into library science several years ago after I became somewhat disillusioned by the industry, though it may have just been my employer at the time. I still do not have a master’s degree, and while contemplating whether or not this could be the year I start to look into graduate school, I realized that I missed aspects of my old career (specifically writing). I have also been feeling a little bored by my job lately. I can’t decide if this slump I am in is normal or if I need to reassess. One thing that I disliked when I switched fields was the huge rollback in terms of pay. I have a variety of skills and plenty of experience, and I just can’t fathom having to go back to entry-level compensation.

    1. fposte*

      If I’m reading correctly, it sounds like you’re saying your choice is between getting a degree in LIS, staying where you are, or moving back to communications–and maybe exploring a whole new field (I wasn’t sure about the “entry-level compensation” thing).

      I’m a big LIS advocate, but I’m also a big advocate of not going to grad school unless you really know you want to. And graduating with an MLIS or whatever isn’t necessarily a way out of low compensation, especially in some specialties. Are you at an institution that would hire you on at a higher level if you got the master’s, or would you have to job hunt, and do you know what the market is like for the specialty you’re considering?

      (There’s definitely some overlap with LIS and communications, so it’s not impossible you could find a job that involves both. They’re likely to be pretty sought after jobs, but they do exist.)

      1. Cassandra*

        Sure. Besides the analyst jobs MLIS Grad mentions, there’s donor relations, outreach and communications (including web work), management — and don’t think you can’t start out managing because your degree is brand-new; some librarians I know did! — and a small-but-growing niche in library-as-publisher.

    2. MLIS Grad*

      There are a lot of corporate research analyst jobs that pay pretty decent money, definitely more than public librarians would get paid. Many of the job listings I’ve noticed lately require writing reports or summaries, or preparing and giving presentations. I don’t know if that’s the *type* of writing you want to do, but that is a way they could overlap.

      One big thing I’ll say is that there were many people in my MLIS program who seemed to be in it because they couldn’t think of anything better to do.. and those people very much struggle to find jobs. fposte gives a lot of good ideas regarding other things you should think about when considering the degree!

  158. Scarlott*

    If I request an ergonomic mouse, SHOULD the employer provide it? I know they don’t have to, but if you had this request as a supervisor or owner of a company, what would you do?

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I’d supply it. It’s, what, $30-50? They shouldn’t be pinching pennies that thin.

    2. BadPlanning*

      My job theoretically provides ergonomic options, but the hoops and red tape make it highly annoying that many people buy their own. Which is silly. I assume the intent is to prevent people from buying fancy stuff willy nilly, but it feels like an intentional high burden to drive people away from the ergonomic options while technically being able to say they supply employees with options.

    3. Undine*

      My last two jobs I’ve gotten ergo mice from the company. It’s their property, and they keep it if you move on. However, I do work in tech, which does tend to be somewhat ergo conscious.

      The thing is, if you hurt yourself (carpal tunnel, etc.) using a non-ergo mouse, they may be on the hook for a worker’s comp claim and paying for PT. That may depend on the state and the size of the company. So it’s definitely in their best interest.

    4. Rincat*

      I’d grant it, ergo mice and other things like that aren’t typically too expensive these days. If it’s radically expensive I’d ask for some justification, but if it’s under $100 or so I don’t see an issue. In fact I just asked my boss for a new mouse and keyboard set because the one he originally gave me were too small for my (freakishly long) hands. He had no problem with it, even though it was like $80.

    5. Graciosa*

      I’d do it if it wasn’t otherwise odd.

      For example, we had someone request an entire set with a theme that would not have been suitable for reuse (think My Little Pony) if that person left the company. In a corporate environment, we’re not going to pay to have you decorate according to your theme (even if the mouse and keyboard were ergonomic).

      If it was my own small company, I’d approve even the odd stuff (if not offensive on a hostile-work-environment level). I’d rather have people smile when they come to work.

    6. Princess Carolyn*

      Absolutely. It’s a small expense that will make it easier for you to do your job. I’m wary of anyone who’d say no.

    7. LCL*

      I would enable the person to do their own research and follow the company procedure to get one. Which is basically contacting the ergo person and filling out a questionnaire. (Large company.) I never go out and buy small items myself, when I have the employee is never happy with my selection.

  159. ThatLibraryChick*

    Question to all the other librarians out there who do programs with the public. Because I’m still rather new at my position with programs, what do you do when you have a patron who keeps asking you to change the date on a program you already have set? I took over a book club from the person who had the position before me and had to change the dates (from 1st week to 2nd week of month) because of my schedule. This seems to have put a tizzy in one of the members because I keep getting emails asking if I can change it back or move it to another week. All the other members seemed ok with the change and I’ve asked my manager what to do and they just told me the public has to just deal with it. Which I understand and am 100% ok with but I just got ANOTHER email from the patron asking if we can change the next book club to another date because it conflicts with a religious holiday they observe and I’m like….argh, either you can do this club or you just can’t. Any advice on what to do/say?

    1. Temperance*

      Is it the same person requesting this change every time?

      I am not a librarian, but I do deal with the public. I occasionally get requests to reschedule a legal clinic for someone who wants to attend but can’t work. These can sometimes get mean and very pushy.

      I just reiterate that we aren’t moving the clinic, and don’t invite any more questions.

    2. animaniactoo*

      “I’m sorry, unfortunately there are many schedules to accommodate and this is when the book club is currently being offered. We expect that there will sometimes be scheduling conflicts and people may need to miss a session, but we cannot reschedule unless there is a major conflict for several participants as the alternate date might then become a problem for others who would be able to attend on the original date.”

    3. BadPlanning*

      Maybe something along the lines of

      Cheery Greeting,

      Thank you for your continued interest in Book Club. I reviewed the schedule and 2nd week of Month is what currently works best for this program. In the meatime, I wonder if you might be interesting in Sunday Lecture Series or Movie club.

      Frankly, I find the people that make the biggest fuss about arranging the schedule to meet their needs often don’t come anyway. Heck, since the rest of the group is cool, maybe Patron is annoying and they’re all immensely relieved the schedule changed and excluded her.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        It’s gonna take all the professionalism I have not to open my next email with “Cheery Greetings,”

        1. fposte*

          “Subdued Reply.”

          This makes me think of the great comic sketch years ago about a generic commercial. “Hi, Popular Overused Man’s Name–cheerful greeting!”

        2. Emilia Bedelia*

          Honestly? This is something that I would fully expect to see in an email from my international colleagues.

          Maybe I will try it sometime. I’ll report back if this becomes the new trend in my emails with international.

    4. C Average*

      I once had a wonderful boss who understood, better than most people, that it’s impossible to please everyone. He used to semi-frequently say (usually when I was trying to figure out how to finesse an impossible-to-fulfill request from a high-maintenance customer), “Sometimes we DO have to leave some of the children behind, and that’s okay.”

      All the scripts below are good. It’s also good to remind yourself that it’s not your job to tailor your library’s offerings to the needs of every single patron.

  160. Junior Dev*

    Rant time: our (female) HR person sent out an email to a list of individual, female employees complaining about the state of the women’s restroom. Apparently sometimes people forget to flush, wipe the seat, etc. I personally would rather encounter the occasional non-ideal toilet than send out an email about it, but whatever, I think it’s not that strange to send a reminder to keep things clean.

    The bad part: SHE INCLUDED PICTURES. Multiple cell phone photos of gross toilet conditions. I only saw the first one before going NOPE NOPE NOPE.

    I find it kind of creepy and comical at the same time, like, she must have been taking these photos for a while and saving them up.

    Why?? Why would you think that was OK??? UGHHHH.

    3. UnCivil Engineer*

      Best email from our corporate president (a company of about 120 people)…a reminder to an engineering firm that our toilets do not automatically flush. We literally design wastewater systems. Made my day.

    4. SophieChotek*

      Are people sending the HR photos to complain or is the HR person running around collecting photo themselves? Wow…

      Will this lead to improvement one wonders…?

      1. Junior Dev*

        Based on previous experience with this HR person I’m pretty sure it’s only her.

    5. Marcela*

      I would think it is OK because I cannot, for the life of me, understand how somebody can be such a pig and leave the bathroom in the condition I’ve seen mine, in a building where _everybody_ has a college degree. It’s not just pee and toilet paper, it is BLOOD. It is not only horrible for the rest of us using the bathroon, it is unbelievably disrespectful for the cleaning people. If in your job there are people raised by wolves, the pictures are the only way to go. And I am not even sure that’s enough.

  161. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I have an interview next week at a top 5 company, that has branches worldwide. When I asked for a job description, they said they’re writing one (apparently based on my CV). Backstory: I applied for an analyst role with them, it didn’t pan out but they wanted to consider me somehow. How often does this happen, writing a job description based on a CV?

    Also, current workplace is kinda crazy today. The work we do is high-profile and one tiny misstep results in a ton of finger-pointing from people who are permanent employees here and resent that I and coworkers are here ‘to do their job for them’ or ‘audit them.’ We do do good work, but if they feel we audit them, it’s only because their quality of work is lacking, and genuinely so.

    1. Lil Lamb*

      Something similar happened at my job with someone in senior management (she was promoted into a newly created position). Basically a job is being created based off of your experiences and what needs the company has.

      Sorry about your current job, hopefully things work out at your potential new one.

    2. hbc*

      I’d say more often at small companies, but a bigger nimble one would be capable of saying, “Oh, shoot, here’s this niche that we didn’t know was a thing until we met you.” But pretty rare overall.

  162. Moving Soon*

    I’ve been interviewing for a job for a few months now, as I’m preparing to make a move between cities for personal reasons. I have been invited for a final interview but they have not set the date yet. I was hoping to have an offer before giving notice at my current ToxicJob, but I’m getting worried that I might need to quit and begin the move before that. This late in the game, how do I bring this up if I do quit? And then will they want to call my former manager?

    1. CAA*

      You don’t have to proactively mention that you already quit your other job. They already have your resume and you don’t really have to give them an updated one. If it comes up in the next interview, like if someone asks “why are you leaving company x”, you can just say you’ve already moved to city y so you’re no longer working at x. I’ve interviewed many people who had already left the most recent job on their resume by the time we got to that point and it’s really not a big deal.

      They will probably want references, but it’s very unlikely that they’re going to insist that one of them has to be your most recent manager. Just give them the names of the people you were planning to use anyway. If they specifically ask for your last manager, you can say that he was angry at you for leaving and you prefer not to use him as a reference.

  163. NaoNao*

    Augh! I didn’t get here fast enough!
    I’ve been waiting for open thread because I’m all excited about this : )

    I’m starting my own business! I’m very excited and also nervous. I have a full time job and I just got a bonus so I’m using that bonus money to invest in expanding what was more of a hobby into a full business. My niche is finding, marketing, styling, and reselling vintage and unique/funky/artsy/cool clothing to “cusp” sized women (size 12-18, L, XL, and XXL–neither “straight” sized nor plus–women for whom it’s a challenge to find truly comfortable fits in stores like J. Crew, Anthropologie, or Madewell, etc, but want that street style, trendy, cool look without resorting to fast fashion options). I basically am my own customer–I’m in that range and I struggle to find truly cool styling options I feel good about buying.

    The plan is to have an eBay store for contemporary clothing, an etsy store for true vintage, a “look book” (all pieces are one of a kind, so this is really more of a publicity item), postcards and business cards, and a blog. The blog will focus on feminist fashion, ethical fashion, female-based, centric, and friendly fashion businesses, and sustainable fashion. I want to use the blog and the biz to “signal boost” (ie, buying items and styling them with my own stuff for photographs, etc) other feminist/sustainable/ethical/local/female-centric fashion businesses.

    My sister is professional photographer, and I’ll be using my personal hairstylist and makeup artist for the Look Book shoot, and I’m leaning on her for a lot of help with social media, blogging, contracts, etc.

    But my question for y’all is:

    Anything you wish someone would have told you about your small biz before you started? Any wisdom to share? Thanks AAM!!!

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I don’t have a ton of advice, as I helped to start a nonprofit, which is kind of a different animal, but one of the things that has been so helpful is creating detailed documentation of decisions that got made and why. The startup process is so hectic and disorienting that we would forget from Wednesday to Sunday what we had decided.

      The real reason I’m commenting is that I too am your customer (though I have a bit less faith in my general fashionability than your target population probably ideally has!) and I would love it if you shared any info about your business when it’s launched!

      1. NaoNao*

        Will do! I can tell you that the “eBay store” is up right now (with only a few items, my auctions just closed and stuff sold!–so wait a day or two so I can hustle some new stuff on there!) and the etsy store will have a very, very similar name or exact name, it’s called “neither.nor.” or “neither.nor.style” (ebay). All stuff *hopefully* will get formally launched on March 8th (International Women’s day!)
        I just went on two shopping trips and got a boatload of new inventory, and I’ll get that up as fast as I can in the next couple days.

    2. Rincat*

      Congrats! That sounds awesome! Please post your link or website name when you get it up as I would love to browse. :) That sounds right up my alley. I’m sorry I don’t have any advice for you because I’ve never started my own business, but I’m cheering you on!

      1. NaoNao*

        Will do! I do know it’s called neither.nor.style on eBay and while, skimpy right now, is up and running. I’m going to call the etsy site (the true vintage and more high style recent vintage stuff) neither.nor as well, so bop over there in about a week and check it out. :)

    3. SophieChotek*

      I would do a lot of reading about SEO for blogs, etc.
      You might consider looking at David Meerman Scotts book on the New Rules of PR….I found it very interesting with lots of great ideas.

    4. Princess Carolyn*

      As someone who’s spent my entire adult life in that particular size range, I’m really intrigued by your concept.

    5. Sibley*

      Do not intermingle business with personal finances. Open a new checking account (can still be a personal type, but not your actual personal account). That way, if you’re putting money in, it’s clear and obvious. Seems like overkill, but it’ll help come tax time, etc.

    6. Master Bean Counter*

      I’ll be a customer if you do petites and have things that actually fit over the curves.
      Keep good financial records. Get Quickbooks or some sort of similar software. Get this before you start selling.

      1. NaoNao*

        You’re my second request for Petites so I’ll have to keep my eye out for them! I’m tall so it’s hard to know what/how to shop for Petites but it’s a real category need, I can see that : )

    7. Spoonie*

      Business insurance. Ensure that you factor all of your costs (insurance, marketing, utilities, etc.) into the price of your goods. Yes, it may only cost you X to make, but you need to add a percentage to cover incidentals.

    8. LCL*

      I took a short (5 or 6 night sessions) class on small business legal requirements in my state, and it included some information on the kind of records needed to meet local and federal requirements. It was really helpful.

    9. Cassandra*

      My absolute favorite business along not-dissimilar lines is Svaha, which makes STEM-themed clothing for kids (of all genders) and women. I found them through the Kickstarter that got the women’s-dresses part of their business launched. Love their blog, love their dresses (pockets!!!!! plus sizes!), am about to throw money at their spring line, think they might be a useful example for you.

      I have no relationship with Svaha other than happy customer!

  164. anon for this*

    I would just like to give a shout-out to the job candidate we had who, after her second interview (first was with a team including the owner, second was just the owner), told us she was withdrawing because she “could not work with him.” He talks a good game and can be very likable, but this woman saw right through him–that he wouldn’t let her even breathe in this new role without checking in with him on the proper exhale duration.

    I’m kind of sad that we don’t have another strong presence pushing back against him, but I’m so grateful that she put it so bluntly. Apparently, he’s “taking it personally” and in my head, I’m yelling, “Dude, that’s the point! This is about your personal management style.” I’m hearing it all second hand because I’ve made clear to him before that people have quit due to him personally, and he can’t even look me in the eye on a telecon now.

    1. fposte*

      I love your summation of his level of micromanagement, and join you in cheering for the candidate who dodged that bullet. Hope it’s not aimed at you on the regular either.

    2. Hrovitnir*

      HA. Good for her. It’s so tiring constantly pushing back against people like that. Or just putting up with it.

  165. NylaW*

    How do you handle a boss that’s very… wishy washy. Like he talks a good talk, tells you and others what they want to hear, and genuinely has good ideas for the direction of the department, but he just doesn’t follow through very well. He tries, but if he meets resistance he tries to reshape his plan to make everyone happy, or he just gets bogged down in other work and then months go by with no action. If he’s pushed from above, from his boss or an executive, then he’s on fire. He will do whatever it takes to get the thing done.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Offer to help. “Wishyboss, I was just thinking back to when we were talking about streamlining our tea brewing process, and I realized we hadn’t moved that forward since it’s been so busy for all of us. Is there anything I can do to help you with that? I think it’d be a great direction for the department and I’d be really enthusiastic about helping move it forward.”

    2. Jillociraptor*

      Ugh, I had this boss and it drove me crazy. I always tried to ask things like, “Just checking: is this just an idea or should I plan to move forward on it?” and tried to be the person contributing information about implications, “If we do this, it means that we need to deprioritize that” or “We can do Plan B, but we’ve already put $10,000 behind Plan A, and we can’t recoup that.” But the reality of working for her was that whenever a new idea came about, we switched gears.

      It pained me but one thing that was helpful was being a “squeaky wheel” for the decisions that had been made. She hated it and often took that out on me, but it was important to make sure we didn’t keep throwing away projects that were 90% done because some new idea popped up, or someone was resistant.

  166. Spacecadet51*

    I am looking to relocate to another city due to lack of opportunities where I currently reside. At least, the type I am interested in. Due to my type of work (administrative) and the level, I doubt they will pay for travel expenses. It isn’t an issue for me because it isn’t that far and too expensive.

    My question is when applying, should I address that I don’t expect them to pay somewhere in my cover letter? Should I just not mention it, with hopes it doesn’t keep me from being considered? It concerns me that they may be under the impression I expect them to pay.

    1. Undine*

      Don’t even tell them that you are not local. It sounds like it won’t affect your availability for interviews.

      1. Spacecadet51*

        But when I fill out the online application and have to enter address, it will come up.

        1. Undine*

          Oh, in that case, “I am planning to relocate to X. I visit there frequently ( or will be visiting there in the near future) and should be able to schedule an interview.” Not perfect, but something like that.

        2. fposte*

          I’m not clear if you’re talking job relocation or interview travel costs, but I’m not sure it matters for this purpose; levels where that stuff gets paid for is less common than the other levels, so they’re unlikely to think you don’t know that and are expecting to be covered. It would be good to be clear in the cover letter that you are relocating and not planning to commute from a really far distance or asking to telework; in some situations, it’s a good idea to identify why you’re relocating to make it clear you’ll be firmly anchored in the new location, but I don’t think that’s necessary for regional moves “with the current”–like if you’re moving within 100 miles or so to a much bigger city.

          1. Spacecadet51*

            Undine & fposte – Thank you for the input. I would feel more comfortable providing an explanation than leaving them to guess. Will make changes to my cover letter to reflect my intentions.

  167. Emi.*

    When my husband worked in retail (at the university bookstore/gift shop, but not a student position), he had to have a supervisor check his backpack before he left every day. I always thought this was weird and disrespectful, but I’ve never worked retail. Is that normal?

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      In that particular position, it’s understandable. Weird and disrespectful, yes, but college textbooks are so ruinously expensive, especially for poor college kids, that almost every college bookstore has had problems with books disappearing out the back door in backpacks and getting sold for a still-tidy fraction of their list price. My girlfriend in college worked at the bookstore, and she constantly had people being like, “I’ll give you $50 for a copy of Campbell’s Biology, please please please”

      1. Emi.*

        Ohh, that makes sense. He didn’t work in the textbooks section so I didn’t think of that, but he was still around them and anyway it was a store-wide policy.

    2. NaoNao*

      It’s very, very normal.
      Almost every corporate (not private) owned store checks garbage bags (and has clear ones for this reason) before they go out, pockets, purses, backpacks. Usually they give it a mere cursory glance, but it depends on the manager. People in their 20’s and 30’s would have to line up for “bag check” at the end of the closing shift or when they left. It was annoying. But! The thing is…employees steal. A LOT more than you would think. They account for a large proportion of the losses. And it’s not so much that they’re underpaid, which is part of it, but it’s more like, most people choose to work in a store that they frequent and like the merchandise. So you’re surrounded by temptation every day, all day.
      Employees often are aware of the scale of the company in the way that customers are not, or see waste (such as returned items slated to be destroyed for one very small flaw, etc) on a scale that customers do not, and can justify it “Well, the company just said they made 55$ million last year!”
      I think one of the ways to avoid this is to raise wages, and make the employee discount very attractive. And be very careful in hiring. But it’s never going to be fully avoidable.

    3. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      I have never had that happen to me in retail. but I never worked somewhere primarily staffed by students

    4. Xarcady*

      I work retail and yes, the loss prevention officer or a manager can ask to see inside our bags. They rarely do, though. But there are cameras throughout the store, so we are basically being watched all the time. (Or at least being filmed all the time–I don’t think they have someone watching the video feeds from all the cameras every second the store is open.)

      And bags we bring on to the sales floor have to be clear plastic or vinyl, so it’s harder to hide stuff.

      If we buy anything, again, we can be asked to open the bag for inspection and we need to have the receipt handy.

    5. KR*

      Sounds normal to me. Textbooks are so expensive. At my alma mater they had cubbies near the bookstore entrance for backpacks and large purses – none were allowed in the bookstore itself.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Super normal. I worked retail at a very popular resort many years ago, and after very late nights, we all had to stand in line to get our bags checked. I didn’t experience that at any future retail jobs, but I usually worked books and never carried a backpack. If a manager had been suspicious, I would have had to submit to a check.

    7. really*

      I have had jobs require you lock your purse/wallet away while on the clock and the use of clear plastic “purses” when you’re on break.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Yes, very normal for retail. My solution was to carry just a wallet. I kept feminine products in the bathroom. They don’t question the things going into the store, so this was a fairly easy solution.

      One place I worked decided to start hand bag searches. No one was given an opportunity to be forewarned. One by one, my younger coworkers came to me and said “you’re a married woman……” I said, “Put it in my bag.” They said, “But you don’t even know what “IT” is.” I did not care and I told them I did not care. I have no idea how they made it all fit. The handbag search went well that night… until they got to my bag. I had: several sets of BC, a couple packages of condoms, some rolling papers, etc. When the bosses pulled out the bottle of “love gel” it was over. They scooped up everything and put it back in my bag. They told me to come to work prepared for a handbag search tomorrow. I refused to wear their embarrassment for them, the situation was ridiculous.

      The retail thinking is that most people will steal. They use studies that show most of the stealing is done by the employees, not the customers. So in short, retailers think their employees are thieves.

      Maybe if they paid them an honest wage they would not have to worry about stealing. To me, it’s the pot calling the kettle black. Just a thought.

  168. Spacecadet51*

    Yes, that is normal. When I was younger, I worked at the May Company (like a Macy’s). Every evening on when we clocked out, our bags were checked. If you purchased something, you were required to show the receipt.

  169. ExhaustedandEmotional*

    I made a mistake a work, and I’d like some advice on how to deal with it while still putting my point forward.

    I had an unprofessional moment when my boss told us all that one of the team was being seconded over to another department. I was not happy, and I was less than professional in telling him that – no profanity, more along the lines of “Morale will fall, what are you doing to do about it?” with foot tapping and pointedly not looking at him. He said “That’s life”. I said “That’s fine, you aren’t able to do anything about the situation anyway.”

    We are supposed to be a team of 10 – but 3 recently left, 2 are on long term sick, 1 does higher level work, 1 is useless (I have to redo all her work) and now 1 of the 3 left is off to another department. A team of 2 is doing the work of a team of 10. And we are swamped. I’m already expected to do 2x the work of everyone else as a high-performer of the team, as well as answering questions from the team (and half the time I know I’m going to have to answer the exact same basic questions over and over again). I’m working flat out, and now I’ve got to cover another person’s absence. I’m exhausted.

    So I was unprofessional. I realised that quite quickly, and I hoped to write a calm and sensible email to apologise for my attitude and explain my concerns. Then I heard him call the only man of the team over to explain that I was only pushing back on behalf of my friend, and that I’d calm down later. He called me over next, and told me I was being unfair to say he couldn’t do anything. I pointed out that “That’s life” sounds like “Tough luck”. He told me that is all in my head and that he can’t measure out every syllable to meet my personality and everyone elses, and then pushed and pushed for me to say that I was happy with the situation. I told him that I was as happy as I was going to get, and that I didn’t see the point in continuing the conversation. He let me go back to my desk. I cried.

    I completely accept that I was unprofessional and that my behaviour was not okay; I should not have acted in that way, and I should not have had that sort of attitude. But I’m exhausted, and on the verge of burning out. How can I backtrack and apologise for my behaviour, and still make the point that I’m running on empty and that something needs to change before I implode?

    1. Manders*

      I think the only way you have left to make your point is to find a better job and make a graceful exit. The kind of person who pushes and pushes to make an employee tell him that they’re happy with this clearly messed up situation is past listening to reason.

      Bosses who treat their top performers badly are going to lose them. THAT is life.

    2. Victoria, Please*

      I don’t think you should apologize for your behavior!!! I don’t think you did anything particularly unprofessional, really. One slightly — *slightly* — snarky remark after news like this? Hey.

      When you feel a bit calmer, do go in with this: “A team of 2 is doing the work of 10. You’ve just given me xyz more tasks when I am already doing 2x the work I’m supposed to be doing. Two questions: How do you want me to prioritize? What is the plan for changing this unsustainable situation?” Bonus question: What’s my raise for doing the extra work?

    3. animaniactoo*

      Honestly, I don’t think you were unprofessional at all. In fact, I think you might have made a different mistake than the one you think you did!

      “I’m not going to be happy with this situation and I refuse to act like I am because it is unsustainable. We are down several people, co-worker and I are overworked to the point of exhaustion, and you just told me it’s going to be worse now. Why would you expect me to be happy with this situation?”

      He wants you to make this all okay for him. It’s not your job to make it all okay for him when it’s a crappy setup. He COULD have done something about the seconding, or hiring more people or something. He’s not. Professionally, if you can get away with it (and it seems like you’re in a position to), you are far better off not making it okay for him and letting him be uncomfortable.

      Professional does not mean “stay calm and polite and at least nominally happy no matter what happens”.

    4. fposte*

      I think that your response was a little sulky and I’d have side-eyed it, but that this discussion isn’t really the issue; your work situation is.

      I’m not sure what conversations you’ve had with him about your situation aside from in this moment, but if you haven’t, you need to. “I’m sorry for the graceless response; I know it wasn’t helpful. Can we talk about the problems with rising expectations for my productivity? They’re not tenable.”

      And realize that you have some choices here: you have the choice of working reasonably and letting unmet expectations fall to the floor, and you have the choice of looking for work elsewhere. Those are choices you should seriously consider.

    5. Althea*

      What do you want to get out of apologizing? Are you trying to restore your relationship with your boss – and if you do restore it, do you think you can elicit some changes in the workload?

      I don’t see smoothing over a slightly snarky remark as useful. In fact, it sounds like you communicated your unhappiness very well, and he sounds like he’s trying to make you say you are happy so that he doesn’t have ACTUALLY find a way to make you happy.

      I’d let everything stand. And I’d keep asking him questions about what the plan is for getting this situation better.

      1. ExhaustedandEmotional*

        Thank you for your responses – “sulky” is probably the best way to describe how I behaved. I guess I want to apologise to him because I’m disappointed with myself, and I want to be a professional even though the job is a nightmare at the moment. I do have choices, I can have an honest conversation with him, I just need to stop trying to avoid them in favour of the safe status quo. Smoothing things over doesn’t get me anything (and neither does sulking!)

        1. fposte*

          I do really sympathize–exhaustion and high pressure are big resentment triggers for me too, and I suspect for a lot of people, and I can sulk up a storm. But usually it’s not the signal for help that it feels like from inside–try making an explicit signal for help, and hopefully it’ll get you more; even if it doesn’t, I think you’ll feel better about dealing with the situation that way.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      For what it’s worth, I don’t think you were unprofessional. I think your boss is an idiot and I think I would have one foot out the door.

      I am alarmed by how you are beating yourself up for the wrongs of other people. Please stop.

      I agree with fposte in that if you cannot let up on yourself then you can find constructive ways to make similar points. For example, “Boss I have project A that will take me three days, I have project B that will take two weeks, I have project C that will take me three hours. Time spent on one project means the next project will be that much longer. Where do you want me to prioritize.”

      But please, stop absorbing the missteps of people around you.

  170. Hoorah*

    I received an email from a job applicant stating he has accepted another job offer. That’s fine. But in that email he made a lengthy complaint about the time it took to give a job offer: he used to manage a team of 100 and even then it never took this long, why think so much over a simple hiring decision, he was willing to consider a lowly company like ours even on a lower pay but now he’s changed his mind, etc. The whole tone was disparaging and condescending.

    It was less than two weeks between first receiving his application and the second interview, which took place 4 days earlier.

    (Coincidentally it turns out another coworker knows him personally, and said this applicant leaves every job on bad terms, burning bridges each time).

    How did we not pick up during the interviews that he would have been a terrible hire? Four of us met with him on the first interview. We thought this was one of the most impressive applicants we met. We were just about to give him a job offer the next day. How can we best assess an applicant’s character in the future?

    1. Dang*

      Yikes. Sometimes people really just aren’t what they seem. 2 weeks from application to offer is nowhere near lengthy, and someone who thinks otherwise and voices that opinion in a condescending way is out of it and/or completely unreasonable.

      Did the other coworker only reveal this info about him after the email fiasco? If not, that might be a way to get an idea. Assuming you checked references also?

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, references are the question I have, and also what stopped the co-worker from providing this information earlier.

    2. Rincat*

      I’d ask very concrete questions about past experiences to both the candidate and his references. Alison has tons of good ones. My former team got burned on a bad hire that seemed great during interviews, and all his references were “positive”, but I doubt my boss really dug into his references…he just said no one said anything bad, but sometimes references don’t want to sound mean, so they won’t say anything negative if just asked general questions. My former boss is extremely verbose and egocentric so I highly doubt he even gave the references a chance to talk. :)

      Also 2 weeks from application to hire is blazing fast, especially in my world! (higher education, where glaciers move more quickly and with greater agility)

  171. BadPlanning*

    Soon, my area is moving from cube land to an open workspace. Normally, I eat at my desk, put on hand lotion, take medication, once in awhile brush my hair, etc.

    We’re going to be sitting next to each other (desk to desk) so desk eating is probably out. But I guess I would feel weird brushing my hair (perhaps I shouldn’t be brushing my hair in my cube either??). I don’t normally take a purse with me to work. I guess I could start, but then I’d feel weird toting my bag around.

    Any tips from other open workspacers? I don’t want to be a gross coworker.

    1. Emi.*

      I’d also feel weird brushing my hair at an open desk, but not eating lunch. Why would that be out? It’s not like eating in front of other people is rude. (I probably wouldn’t snack, though–just eat lunch).

    2. KR*

      Could you get a small make-up bag that you keep in your desk to store lotion, wet wipes, bandaids, hair brush, things like that? That way you can just take that with you to the bathroom and back.

    3. Althea*

      I think the hair brushing is weird, because of the tendency to shed. None of the other things causes any shedding, so I think they are ok.

    4. irishdiva*

      Usual office etiquette – being aware of your voice (how loud), taking long calls in a conference room if possible, possibly eat noisy food like apples in the kitchen? Overall just being aware of your surroundings and co workers.

    5. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I work in an open office with mostly considerate people, which is great, because we don’t even have desks, just long tables with computers on them. I think brushing your hair or really any kind of personal grooming would come across as odd, although putting on lotion is fine and I suppose taking medication can be done pretty discretely. People tote purses around all the time, so if feeling weird is your only concern there I suspect you’d get used to it.

      People eat at their work-space the time, just try and mostly avoid super crunchy or smelly foods. If you want to be super-considerate, ask if the people around you if they mind the smell of your lotion and try not to do it terribly often because they’ll probably lie even if it does bug them. Never leave your cell phone sound on, and never leave it at your desk unattended, even if it’s on vibrate, because that’s when it’s guaranteed to ring and everyone will make fun of you, and the buzzing carries more than you’d think.

      Really, just be aware of smells and sounds. Don’t be the guy who takes off his shoes under his desk, or the lady who microwaves fish.

      1. MegaMoose, Esq*

        I’m something of a hypocrite on the hair thing as I frequently finger-comb my hair while I’m thinking. No one’s perfect!

        And on the noise thing, if you wear headphones, remember that their sound is a lot more audible to others when you take them out of/off your ears, so always turn off whatever you’re listening to before walking away from your desk. I’ve got a guy three desks down who will leave his sound on when he takes off his headphones and it’s really annoying.

  172. Cation*

    I’m looking for advice on working with recruiters to kick start a career in chemistry. This is for my husband, who is about to finish his PhD in chemistry after a very long road (over 14 years as an undergrad and grad student). His previous work history was in retail so he’s never had to do a career-type search. His preference is for academic positions but he needs a backup plan as we’re well aware that the odds are against finding a faculty position in our area and we are committed to staying here. In addition, we’re not seeing a ton of industry work in our area, although I know some exists. His focus is computational biochemistry, if that’s relevant. I know people talk about recruiters contacting them…but can you contact a recruiter? And do people in scientific fields work with recruiters?

    1. LK*

      just google “science recruiter [your city or region]” and start sending short emails saying something more eloquent but along the line of “Hi, I have my XXX degree in YYYYYY and I’m looking to work with a recruiter. Are you taking new clients?” and see who bites. I’m in legal support and this is by far the best way to find jobs that never get posted, so it’s worth a shot. Whether or not people use recruiters is a geographic question, not an industry one. What do other people in your husband’s position do? Can you talk to people you went to school with to see how they found private sector jobs?

      1. Cation*

        Thank you so much LK! I just couldn’t figure out how to get started. Unfortunately my husband’s peers and faculty have not been good sources of information. Faculty can’t think beyond professorships or vague notions of “industry.” Peers are mainly doing post docs around the country. They’re in their 20s, no kids. That’s not us. We’re looking at civil service positions in the nearby state capitol, academic positions at state colleges and community colleges, and of course job boards. He has a year post doc opportunity with his advisers this fall so we can have that extra year to look while he makes a little more money, if we need it, and I bet we will.

    2. Marcela*

      Cation, I asked my husband, who is a PhD in physics working in computational chemistry/physics. He said that if your husband wants an academic position, a postdoc is the way to go. If he thinks about going to industry, then networking is very important, and if his peers can’t help him, then conferences are a good place to meet people, find somebody working in common areas of interest and get ideas about where to go.

      He also said it’s possible to directly send your cv to companies doing the type of job he wants. Usually they are going to be interested in brilliant researchers. As how are you going to find these companies, I’m not sure, for at least in our particular field the names are very well known and they get mentioned everytime there is a conversation about our futures.

  173. PersistentCat*

    Hi!
    So I started in a role at a small company a year ago. The initial role was to focus on this one specific & labor-intensive aspect of the business. However, once I started, it became blatantly obvious that there were other necessary aspects that were needed. As the initial role had an unpredictable flow, I took on, with permission & even was specifically requested, certain tasks. Now, there was a huge personality clash with someone I worked directly with (not my manager, but from a different department) and errors made in my primary role. All of these errors happened in my 90 day training period, but were not caught/were perpetuated until well past that. Due to these combined factors, the decision was made to transfer me to a role that focused on my secondary duties, which were also more in line with my skill-set, and reduce the level of interaction I had with the person (who was triggering panic attacks I hadn’t had since I was a teenager).
    Now a replacement for my previous title is being sought, and I think we found a great candidate. I’ll still be training them, despite not working in this capacity over the last 2 months, as the person who took over my responsibilities is already wearing two hats (which I feel terrible about). I know how I’ll be framing this to the new person (I transferred from this role to focus on x,y,z which are more in line with my career goals), but what do I do if the problem guy starts undermining me, mis-framing the situation with the new hire & lessening/ruining any bit of professional respect this person might have towards me, or is incredibly unprofessional towards myself (again) or the new hire?
    We don’t have HR here, and at all of my previous companies, this guy would have been written up or fired, not me transferred & both of us directed to limit our exposure to each other. It feels like a set up to perpetuate the toxic environment that I dealt with, and I want to come to the big boss/owner with solutions to the concerns I have, not just a list of speculative concerns based on prior behavior.

    Do you have any advice for me in this situation?

    1. Undine*

      A lot of it is up to how you interact with the new person. If you say, “this role wasn’t a good fit for me, because I don’t have a good head for figures, and I did add some things wrong when I started,” (or whatever the details are) then Mr. Bad can’t undercut too much, because you have already admitted you made some mistakes. And also think less in terms of “defending yourself” and more in terms of “supporting this person who has to work with both you and Mr. Bad.” For example, maybe Newbie’s boss to make it clear to Newbie that if they have problems with Mr. Bad, or with navigating between you and Mr. Bad, that they should come to boss. Really, if Mr. Bad is that unprofessional, and Newbie is reasonably smart and not into drama, mostly you just have to be sane and present.

      1. PersistentCat*

        Thank you for the insight (and useful names); I’ll add the necessary level of detail when I work with Newbie.

        My main issue really is that their boss (my current boss) wasn’t able to do anything about Mr. Bad when I was working with him & my previous boss was actually fired for “cultural fit” (read here: not playing nice with Mr. Bad). I’ll just have to hope that Newbie doesn’t have the same level conflict–and somehow doesn’t make any errors during their training period.

  174. Buu*

    I had an appalling job interview this week, they phoned when they said they’d Skype then it turned out my interviewer didn’t even know what job I’d applied for ( even though their recruiter approached me!). Was feeling super bummed until toward the end of the interview …and then they dropped some awful deal breaker contract terms. I’ve not heard back yet, but even if I did I’d decline to take it further.

    Anyone else have that before, a sudden mid interview realization a job was wrong for you? I nearly halted the interview there but I’m waiting out of interest to see if they call me back. I’m also going to practice my interviewing I’m really out of practice.

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      I feel for you- I hate when this kind of thing happens and I’ve wasted the time, but I’m not so great at first-impression-ing because of my personal reactions to having to talk about myself, so I need the practice. I’m glad you learned things during the interview that showed the job was wrong for you; taking interviews like this are almost always worth it just to know more than you did when you applied- you’d never have gotten answers without that strange interview, right? About 18 months ago I had an interview for a medical receptionist which went so badly, and the weirdest thing is I could have just left before the interview even started.

      My interviewer was 30 minutes late meeting me, and the whole thing lasted 13 minutes. She asked me how old I was (then rambled about how she’s not against hiring young people), and discounted the fact that her office would require long hours certain days without notice even when I discussed taking classes in the evenings. She said if they hired me it wouldn’t be at the advertised pay, and bristled at my needing more than a week’s notice to come try out the job for a day (paid) because I was already working full-time (which they were aware). I couldn’t get out of there fast enough, and emailed her that night to say I wasn’t moving forward.

    2. CAA*

      Sure. An interview is a two-way conversation, and I’d say about a quarter of the ones I’ve participated in helped me figure out that I didn’t really want to work there — not because of contract issues, but for a variety of other reasons including not liking the office setup or the commute, finding out the work was not appropriate, etc.

      I did once get interviewed by someone who had no clue what job I’d applied for. He was a last minute fill-in for the hiring manager who’d broken a leg in a skiing accident the day before and was having emergency surgery that day. The hiring manager had arranged the interview directly with me, so it wasn’t on anybody else’s schedule and when I showed up they were clueless and scrambled to find a random manager to talk to me. I did take that job (after the real hiring manager came back and setup a new interview) and I wound up working with random manager quite a lot.

    3. Rincat*

      Oh yes, I’ve had two interviews like that, with very different outcomes. First – I was 20 years old (I’m 33 now), interviewing for a job I didn’t know much about in the Registrar’s dept at a university. The director who interviewed me told me that, if at any point I realized this job wasn’t for me, let her know so we could end the interview – because after all, it’s a conversation, not an audition! So I did just that after I quickly realized it was not something I wanted – and then she proceeded to chew me out for 30 minutes for saying I didn’t want the job, and lectured me about my demeanor and unprofessionalism, and told me that I should basically beg for the job even if I didn’t want it! I barely held it together to get out of there, and then cried in my car. I really just should have just walked out, she was so rude and belittling.

      The second time was just a few months ago, when I was interviewing for a position in what is now my new dept – it was a stretch for me, so during the interview I realized I wasn’t a good fit. But I still asked a lot of questions about the dept itself (since it was brand new), and said I would love to work for them at some point, as I liked their role in my company and their vision. A few weeks after, they invited me to interview for a different position on the team, and I got that job! And I’ve been loving it.

      So my point is, depending on the company and how the interviewers are treating you, you might wait and see if you think you’d like to work for them, like in my second story. But if you come to the realization that it’s a total mismatch and you don’t like your interviewers, I wouldn’t hesitate to politely extricate myself.

    4. Kowalski! Options!*

      Oh, yes. I was working as a researcher for a tech company, and got a call one day from a corporate recruiter who was working on behalf of one of the major consulting firms. She asked a few perfunctory questions, asked me if I was interested in interviewing somewhere else (I got *really* interested once I found out who, exactly, was looking for a researcher, because even though I knew that the hours would be brutal, it would have been more than double what I was making at that other job.)

      Well, I got to the interview — had even bought a new suit for it — and within five minutes it became painfully clear that I didn’t have anything near the technical profile that the client was looking for. Maybe a 25% percent match, but nothing more. Luckily, the interview only lasted about ten minutes before I was graciously shown the door. I grabbed a cab, high-tailed it to work, and within twenty minutes the recruiter called me, furious. Did I not have (X)? No, and I hadn’t claimed I did. What about (Y)? No, I didn’t have that, either. Never said that, not in the phone conversation and not on my resume. There was a silence on the end of the phone, and then she hung up. It’s one of the few job interviews where I felt genuinely relieved that I didn’t get the job. I mean, it’s one thing to inflate your own credentials, but it was bizarre to have someone do it by not reading my resume or ask me the right questions during the screening process. Even after all these years, I still don’t know what the hell happened.

      1. Buu*

        Ha! glad it’s not me. Really interesting to hear some of your experiences. You’re right interviewing is a two way street, and this bad vibe company did nothing to make me want to work there at all.

        1. Kowalski! Options!*

          I honestly think that job hunting is more like dating that bears thinking about. Some dates are great, and you never hear back from them again. Some are OK, and work out in the long-term (or not). And some….hoo, boy!

  175. Pineapple Incident*

    I started a new job about 6 weeks ago, and I still can’t find the other shoe I’m waiting to drop. The office I joined is really interested in staff development, full of interesting people from a variety of backgrounds, and invested in continuous improvement of its business processes (automation to make peoples’ jobs easier, better service/communication, etc.). I am really enjoying myself learning how the department works, its role within the larger organization, and the department’s future vision/strategic plan. I’m already being engaged for ideas on how to improve our operational checklists, developing documents for the people we support, and . For the first time in my working life, I’m not job searching or worried about money- they doubled what I was making at ExJob, which was under market value.

    Does anyone have experience shaking off the anxiety of waiting for the other shoe to drop? I’m trying to enjoy this but it’s surreal, like I’m counting down to when I have to go back to ExJob full-time.

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      whoops- that 4th sentence is supposed to just end with “..and developing documents for the people we support.”

    2. Rincat*

      I’m experiencing that now. I’m 4 weeks into my new job, and I was at ExJob for 7 years – 4-5 of those years were spent trying to get out. So I’m struggling with accepting my new reality. My NewJob sounds similar to your NewJob, so I totally get where you’re coming from. I’m also trying to deal with my anxiety about bosses – it’s making me scared to ask them questions, but they have been nothing but nice and helpful to me.

      So I’m sorry I don’t have much advice to offer! What is helping me right now though is telling myself to just take it a day at a time, every job has issues but most of the time they can be resolved (or tempered), and to just do my best. They’re not going to fire me without warning, and just enjoy the new atmosphere.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        Thanks for commiserating :) I feel the same way, especially about bosses; my old boss talked with a sweet tone even when she was delivering bad news or trying to punish someone and wasn’t great with questions or process improvement suggestions, so I’m getting used to new-boss’s sane management strategy slowly. I find myself intimidated when asking all of these incredibly nice people questions, but they’re so happy whenever I do- it’s just something to get over I guess.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’m almost 3 months in (wow, that went fast) and I still feel like that. I come in some days wondering if I’m going to be fired, then my boss compliments something I worked hard on and it’s pretty great. I only just, this week, feel like I can relax and hang with some of the people here (who have been exceptionally warm and welcoming). Job-related PTSD is A Thing.

      Advice… that I don’t really have. Personally, I’m trying to stay organized and engaged. I’m paying as much attention as I can and giving myself time to do the tasks I’m assigned and do them well. I’m also asking questions. All I know is that this uncertainty will likely fade away and this will start to become the norm. Eventually.

  176. ConfidentialPerson*

    It’s getting late, but I could use some immediate advice! I had a weird day, where I got a raise and bonus at my current job and also had a phone screen somewhere else. I asked about salary range, and told him the range I was looking for. He said it was on the high side, but he could get my info to the HM and ask them if they would be open to discussion.

    My instinct is to withdraw right now. The bottom of the range I provided would be a 10% increase over my new wage* (plus I have great benefits, and I don’t know what theirs are). This is a new industry for me (think moving from a teapot system company to a hinge company), so I am not sure I want to leave something where I have room to grow in responsibility and salary where I already have a strong reputation, to something where I will be topped out already.

    I guess I’m leary all around. . .they called me, so I figured “why not” but it’s double the commute (30 mi), and I had a friend who worked for another hinge company at a VP level, and he had hard time getting employed after a layoff. My region has multiple top national and global teapot system companies, but hinge jobs aren’t as plentiful. I was frustrated at my current position, but things have been improving over a couple months. I’m not sure I would jump ship even if I had a great offer.

    Do you think my instincts are right to withdraw, or should I go ahead and let them tell me no?

    *Should also mention that I am over $100,000, the 10% increase is almost an embarrassing number for me to ask for.

    1. H.C.*

      For me, it would depend on the hinge company’s benefit package (it may be even more generous than teapot systems) and how far along I already am in the process. If it’s near the end and they are about to make an offer, I would wait it out and weigh my options and choices then – but if there’s several more rounds of interviews and/or tests to go, I would withdraw now to save everyone time, esp. if I feel as strongly as you do about teapot systems’ career prospects (and the improvements going on at your current company.)

      Regardless, congrats on the raise!

      1. ConfidentialPerson*

        Thank you for the congrats on the raise.
        I’m at step 1 of the process. While it might not have been totally off base to ask about benefits, I felt like asking about salary at this stage was enough. I have industry-leading benefits at my company now, so while glassdoor, etc. says theirs are “good” no one reports that they’re fantastic. (5 wk vacation, 6% 401k match, 4% profit share annually, cover about $300/wk in family health insurance).

    2. LK*

      Have you had a commute that long before? QOL change for that…. money/10% raises can’t buy you back those hours every week and hundreds of hours every year. Since this isn’t a choice to be poor or stable (your salary range is fairly high I see?) I would reeeeally make sure that’s a commute you won’t resent when you could otherwise be doing recreational activities/hanging with friends or family/anywhere but on a highway in a metal box.

      1. LK*

        …..HC answered everything nicely, to clarify, my comment was more for if you follow through and have a last minute change of heart and consider it….

    3. Newby*

      If you know that you don’t want it, even if they meet your terms, you should withdraw. If you might want it, then let them tell you if the salary you are looking for is acceptable. You aren’t wasting their time if you are honestly considering it. The way you phrase your question “should I go ahead and let them tell me know” suggests you don’t want it.

    4. EnviroEducator*

      Long commutes are the WORST! I vote giving a lot of weight to a shorter commute time.

    5. ConfidentialPerson*

      Thanks to everyone who answered. I am going to withdraw. I think if they had said that the salary was no problem or I was miserable now, I might keep going because who knows what possibilities it could hold.

      I “unfortunately” have a lot of momentum right now. It could change in 3 mos., but right now I want to see how this develops. This has, however, let me reframe my perspective a little. I was coming off a bad 2016 and looking at things negatively. I was having angry upset fits (alone at home ) not that long ago because I felt really undervalued, but 4 different things have happened in the last month to correct that. Just wrong timing.

  177. phedre*

    YOU GUYS!!!! I got a promotion and a raise yesterday! I was nervous about my annual review – I knew it was irrational and that they’re happy with my work, but reviews still give me anxiety. But my boss told me that they are making me the Director of Development & Marketing (basically just adding marketing to my work) which is what I wanted, and they’re hiring me a part-time assistant. She apologized for not being able to get me someone full-time (we’re a nonprofit so money is tight) but even 20 hrs a week will be so huge.

      1. phedre*

        Thanks, I do feel good! I think sometimes I am too hard on myself. I know I’m not going to meet revenue goals for our fiscal year (ends June) because I keep getting pulled into other non-revenue generating projects. I know my boss knows the reason why and even tells me she knows how swamped I am and how pleased she is with my work, I guess I was still worried. I’m glad that they recognize that the reason I won’t make my budget for the year is because I need an assistant.

  178. BrownieSundae*

    I work in a deadline oriented industry and company. When I started working at my current job (about a year and a half ago), I did not receive due dates/deadlines from my boss and superiors for some projects, but they did not say that they preferred not to give deadlines. Then, I started asking for deadlines/due dates. I have never turned anything in late, and more often than not, I turn things in well in advance of the due date.

    At my 1 year review, which was glowing in most aspects, my boss said I needed to work on prioritizing. I was a little shocked by that and countered, turning it around (rightfully so) because he then admitted that he needed to work on letting me know the priority of tasks.

    Recently, however, it seems they have been completely avoiding giving me even a rough idea of when things are due. After being assigned a time-consuming task (on top of many others at a very busy time), I asked when that item was due by. That particular boss said as soon as possible, gave me a date, and then a few minutes later, proceeded to send a snarky email to everyone (though it seemed to be directed at me) basically saying not to ask when things are needed by and that everything is needed as soon as possible. It seems like that boss has been a little avoidant lately, and very short with me at times. It also seems like my other boss has been avoiding telling me even a rough idea (like today, next week, next month) of when things are due. He even said at one point, “We’re not trying to slow-play this” when I asked when a task was due—that seemed out of left field to me. Often, things need to go to the printer by a certain date, or are to be used a certain date—but that date is being kept from me, and now I’m gun-shy to ask, and even when I do ask, I often get a snappy answer or no answer at all. I’ve even tried saying “I’m assuming this is top priority.”, when I’m given a new task, and I don’t even get acknowledgment of that anymore.

    This is highly problematic for me. It’s getting really difficult to prioritize and manage my time effectively. If everything is a priority, then nothing is a priority. I recently told them I’m pregnant. I’m going on paid maternity leave (though paid leave isn’t required in my state) in the summer. I’m worried that they want to get rid of me, and I need this job now more than ever. Are they trying to get me to miss a deadline so they can fire me? I can’t help but worry about this.

    Should I talk to my boss about how not having deadlines or priority levels of any kind for any of my tasks is making it difficult to manage my time?

    1. Manage up*

      I’m sorry, that sound awful. What if you start giving THEM the deadlines? Tell them you’ll have each task done in a day/a week/a month, etc. (preferably in writing! Email this for CYA). Then it’s on them to either be radio silent (silence is compliance) or push back that they need it earlier, to which you can state an earlier deadline if they still can’t tell you the exact timeline.

      1. Newby*

        That’s what I was thinking. When given a new task say something like “I’ll get this to you by Thursday unless you want it to take priority over X in which case I can get it to you by Tuesday.” That way they know which tasks you are prioritizing and can correct it if necessary before it affects deadlines.

        1. BrownieSundae*

          Thank you @Manage up & @Newby. Those are good suggestions that I may need to try at some point. The downside with that is that I am horrible at actually estimating the time it will take me to do things. I get things in well ahead of time—I almost always ‘Make it Work’, but in terms of saying that something is going to take me X amount of time—not so good at that. A lot of my work is creative in nature, so sometimes inspiration strikes in a different amount of time. Also, many times when I get a task assigned, I don’t get all of the details, guidelines, or specs either, and I also have to dig for those.

          There are a lot of advantages to this job, but this part is increasingly frustrating. I would have more time to do my job if I weren’t chasing people for details and deadlines.

          Like you suggested, I think I might try saying what my tasks are and what priorities I have them at (instead of asking). Maybe I could list them in order, and say “This is the order of priority I have my current tasks at. Please let me know if anything needs to be switched around, or if there are any relevant deadlines that I need to know about in regards to any of these.”. Does that sound too formal?

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I don’t think they’re trying to fire you, I think they’re bad bosses who have no respect for their employee’s attempts at time management because of a misplaced sense of perpetual urgency. I’d write them an email along the following lines:

      “Bosses,

      I’d like to reconnect with you on the topic of due dates. I understand that we’re not trying to slow-play anything and I understand our pace is very fast. But if I’m going to manage my time effectively, I can’t just assume that everything is hot and needs to be done ASAP, because I can’t work on five things simultaneously. Inevitably, something’s going to get finished first, and something’s going to get finished last, and I need guidance from you on what those things are. Due dates would be preferable, but even a rough idea of how hot a task is would really help me ensure that my work gets to the printer or end user on time.

      I’m concerned that if I treat everything as equally important, I’m going to make a bad call and miss the date something needs to go to the printer or get used by. I don’t want to expose the company, you, or myself to that kind of risk. What do you suggest as a way forward here?

      Brownie”

      1. BrownieSundae*

        Thank you @Scientist. There is a sense of perpetual urgency, especially lately. I understand that during certain times under an extreme workload, but on a regular basis I think it’s unreasonable and way too stressful! The situation is just a little unheard of to me—I’ve never worked under management quite like this before, with bosses getting upset with me for being conscientious of when things need to be done.

        I really appreciate your advice. I think I am going to need to tackle this head-on and directly address the issue. I think your message is worded very well, and if you don’t mind, I’m going to use that (adapted a little bit).

        Thanks again.

  179. JamesinVirgina*

    Question for all you smart people out there, would love your opinion:

    Im transitioning military who is planning to return home to Ohio after my ‘retirement’ in about 60 days. While Im from Ohio, Ive put my local address on my resume as Ive been told on every blog ever and explained in my cover letter that I was moving back and that my relocation is already funded (by the military) but Ive been screened out 100% of the time. When Ive talked to other recruiters because of my experience, education and skill set, no one has had an issue with possibly relocating me…. just none have represented my the area Im wanting ( Cincinnati).

    So my question.. is this situation where Im stationed in VA, but from Ohio and returning there AND my relocation is 100% funded (and Im able to interview in person pretty quickly), would it be OK to list my address as there in Ohio and just explain it when Im called? I don’t want to be dishonest, but I also don’t want to be passed over because of something like that..

    Thoughts?

    1. Newby*

      That’s not an uncommon thing to do. You could put the local address on the resume and explain in your cover letter that you are in the process of moving there from Virginia. No dishonesty, just different framing. Up-thread, people actually talked about not putting an address on the resume at all.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Don’t put your address on your blog, for one. It’s really not necessary. If you must, put a local address on there, but I’d just leave it off.

  180. Feathers McGraw*

    Almost forgot I had this to post. New HR manager has been going round each team asking us to let him know what we think HR could improve on in terms of how they attract, develop and retain staff. (Staff surveys are coming later in the year as well.)

    It’s a lovely workplace but hiring was a bit of a disorganised shambles before he joined. Colleague and I both wrote to him about some issues in the hiring process. Colleague stopped there. I… continued. Went into rather frank detail about several other issues (e.g. about how I had to prove I am an expert on teapot glazing to get my job but have to go on a teapot glazing course that’s mandated for all staff – even though I already have an equivalent qualification in teapot glazing, I actually reviewed and updated the training materials for this course, am more experienced than the trainer and will be bored stupid – my manager doesn’t know enough about teapot glazing to fully appreciate how ridiculous this actually is). I wasn’t rude, but I didn’t sugarcoat things either.

    Colleague very quickly got a reply saying he had experienced the same issues when he was hired and was putting new processes.

    I didn’t get a reply that day. Or the next day. So I started panicking and imagining I was going to be fired or something.

    Until new HR manager wrote back apologising for the delay and explaining what he was doing about all the issues I raised, as well as assuring me that he appreciated the feedback. Which was kind of awesome.

  181. Shayland*

    Two things

    1.) I left my canvasing job because I had a terrible seizure right before winter break and was still having trouble walking long distances / standing for a long time a month afterwards. My boss was super understanding, he’s a nice guy and I liked working for him. He says the doors open this summer if I can come back to work then. The thing is I don’t know if I want to. I got a lot out of canvasing but I also feel that some aspects of the job encouraged me to be an asshole. My boss is also very absent minded and it resulted in my getting my pay delayed by a month twice.

    2.) I’m currently writing a really intense and triggery paper for one of my classes about special education, which I personally experienced and was abused during. It’s so hard. I also explained this to a teacher in a different class with a paper due on the same day asking for an extension past spring break but he said no. This intense paper technically has an extension until June but I literally can not write another paper while I work on it. So UGH.

    1. Mimmy*

      Regarding your second thing – If your school has a Disability Service office, I highly recommend approaching them (if you haven’t done so already) to see if they can help you work something out.

      1. Shayland*

        I have gone to DRS (disabled resource services) getting extensions is actually part of my IEP (or is it called something different in college?). Anyway, this teacher is saying he’s already given the class an extension on the paper and that’s why he’s denying me a longer extension due to the conflicting papers.

        It’s so stupid, since this paper is about special education it’s caused me to regress to that time where I was in middle school and was forced to… I don’t even have words for it. But we had to write in this extremely cookie cutter way. And it’s giving me really bad writer’s block. I had to sit down with my other teacher and have her explain for 40 minutes how to write a paper. Like how to take my quotes and write to introduce them, to respond to them, to connect ideas together, etc.

        This teacher is a great teacher. This other one not so much.

        The teacher from the other class (History) also did give me an extra day since I showed him that the program I use to access my books wasn’t working. So I’m also worried to go to DRS because he did give me an extention, just a small one and not the one I need.

        Maybe I’ll just cross my fingers and hope I end up in the ER due to a seizure the day I’m supposed to turn it in. I’m due for one of those anyway.

    2. Shayland*

      I wrote 2 more pages for the special education paper and I need a hug. I just have to get through my final arguments, then my intro and conclusion.

        1. Shayland*

          Thank you so much, honestly.

          There is another paper about this same topic, a draft 1, if you will, that I’m taking in a different direction. (Personal story instead of research). I added another 2 pages on that one as well to take a break from this first paper. I hope to get both published. I want to get through this. It’s so hard.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have not had your life experience so this may or may not work for you.

      I had to a write a couple papers that were difficult because of being sooo very personal in my life.

      I just did not want to do the papers. And it ended up that I dragged myself through the papers.

      I broke them into bite size parts. I did not try to do my usual long days of marathon writing.
      I worked in rewards such as a cup of hot tea or a snack.
      I decided to realize there is a reason for rough drafts and I threw everything down on paper first. This required no self criticism. Which was great because it freed me up to deal with ANGER.

      I wrote out the angry parts as I was able. This meant write some today, let it go. Come back to it tomorrow, refine it, let it go. Come back to it on a third day and say, “how much of this is relevant to what I REALLY want to say?” Make some tweaks, let it go.

      The longest part was writing the initial ideas on paper. After that I had to decide what was relevant to my point. And I had to decide on my point.

      My suggestion is do the parts today that you can do. And do the same each day, “I will just focus on the parts I can do.”
      Suppose the best you can do today is take a clean sheet of paper and write “my life sucked.”
      Good, you have a start.
      Tomorrow maybe you can write, “I had crappy thing A happen. I had crappy thing B happen.”
      Good, you are adding to your content.
      On the third day keep following what is at the forefront of your thinking. Mental blocks often occur because we think A and want to say B, but we are too preoccupied with A. Get the thing down on paper that is heaviest on your mind. You can decide whether or not to use it later when you have more content to chose from.

      You CAN do this, you will come out the other side. You will not lose parts of yourself, I promise. Matter of fact, you will FIND parts of yourself.
      I wish you the best.

  182. Hoorah*

    I had an applicant who was declined for a job. He called me immediately after I sent the decline email to ask if there is another vacancy, any vacancy. (“I really, really need a job.”) I told him we had one other customer service role. He immediately sent his application again. He was declined for that as well.

    A week later I posted a different job advertisement. He phoned me within half hour of posting to introduce himself again and to let me know he was going to apply for this job too. He emailed me his resume again immediately.

    I strongly suspect he is getting rejected because, like me, other employers find his desperation off putting and he is interrupting hiring managers with pointless phone calls (“I just want to let you know I really need this job and I’m going to apply for it.”)

    Is there a gentle way to give him some feedback to email his application and back off? Or don’t bother with feedback at all?

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      And somewhere, there is a dad in this story, telling him that he got his first job by going down to the bank and introducing himself with a firm handshake.

      I’d be pretty blunt with him, because someone this aggressive has problems with boundaries. “We have a structured, firm interview process where applicants email their applications. We will consider your application materials and decide whether to advance you for an interview. Please do not call us. It’s actively harming your chances and irritating the hiring managers.”

    3. Temperance*

      Honestly, I wouldn’t help him at all. What happens when you do that is you become the person who he can contact. Just let it go.

    4. Chaordic One*

      In your situation I don’t think I would respond. If he were a friend I might suggest that he register with some temp agencies and apply for some retail jobs. (Although retail are appallingly slow to respond, they usually do eventually.)

  183. PoniezRUs*

    How do I tell my manager I cannot take my co-worker’s mansplaining anymore? I have been in this job for 7 months and receive positive reviews and critical feedback from my real boss on a regular basis. However, I have a pseudo supervisor. He was originally just my peer mentor but now supervises some of what I do. My real boss is okay with this arrangement so I can’t really do anything about that. This pseudo supervisor is male, older by maybe 8 years, used to be a manager but took a step down for his current role so he misses managing people.

    Except, he sucks. His work is okay and his presentation skills are atrocious but he insists on giving me pointers and mentoring. In front of people he will tell me how I should execute an assignment when I didn’t ask for guidance. He also takes credit for progress on projects he is supposed to be involved in but has not been involved in at all, leaving me to do all the work. I am ready to talk to my manager about this. It’s embarrassing to be talked to and managed like this is my first professional job. Yes, I am the most junior person on the team but I have been working for 5 years now in various roles and have amazing experience. HELP

    1. Urgent FMLA Questions*

      Have you talked directly to the co-worker yet? I feel like that would be AMA’s advice, and I’m sure I’ve read some good scripts for dealing with co-workers similar to yours. This one https://www.askamanager.org/2012/10/how-to-deal-with-a-bossy-coworker.html or this one https://www.askamanager.org/2011/11/coworker-keeps-bossing-me-around.html might apply.

      I’m terrible at stuff like that, but I think AMA’s idea that calling him out on the pointers and mentoring first before going to your manager is a good idea. It’s a very good skill to have. However, for the projects he’s leaving you to do all the work on, that might be something to go directly to your boss with to ask how to handle it.

    3. Nanc*

      Yeah, I think you’re going to have to try to deal with it a bit before bringing it to your manager.

      When he gives you bad direction you can say something like “that’s an interesting thought, I’ll take it into consideration.”

      If he starts taking credit, especially in front of others, you can say something like “actually, I’m responsible for that part of the project, would you send me your notes so I can incorporate them?”

      A little push back may be all it takes to stop the behavior. If it doesn’t stop and it’s truly interfering with your job then go to your manager prepared to talk about what you’ve already done to try to mitigate the problem.

      Good luck and let us know what happens.

    5. Ultraviolet*

      I feel kind of uncertain about this, but I think you could tell your boss you need some clarification on how this guy’s role relates to yours. Tell your boss that this guy gives you unasked-for instructions on how to complete basic assignments, sometimes in front of other people, and that he accepts credit for work you’ve done when his only contribution was to give advice you didn’t need. Say that it’s giving you and probably everyone else the sense that your role is really subordinate to the mansplainer’s, and you wanted to check with your boss whether that was what he intended your role to be. If he seems to think there’s a problem with it, say you’d like to discuss ways to make your work a little more independent of the mansplainer. If he indicates that it is what he wanted, then ask him for advice about what to do when mansplainer starts explaining things you know really well. Tell him you think that’s a poor use of everyone’s time and are worried that it makes other people think that your knowledge and skill are much less than they are.

      In short(?), because your boss has made this guy your “supervisor” to some extent, I think it’s a good idea to get aligned with the boss about how much of the mansplainer’s “guidance” you can reject. But don’t get me wrong, I know this is super infuriating. Good luck!

  184. Tempest*

    Very late to the party this week but I’ve had two phone interviews this week for manager and advisor level with the same company. Wishing and hoping to go forward with manager but would be over the moon with advisor as well. It would be at a brand new site so loads of scope to shape things. I’ll know more soon about success and timescale.

    Progressing at current job is not going to be all easy in spite of the good game they talk so I’m really hoping new company wants to take it forward. If not I have something else bubbling on a non-finite time frame so I’m so hopeful one of the three works out soon. Everyone who told me my situation is poor and I need to part ways from both my site AND my whole company seems to be right. It’s time and today crystallized that for me.

  185. Rio C*

    Would it be considered a red flag if a Fortune 500 company asks you for a phone interview within hours of submitting a resume? It’s something I wasn’t expecting as a previous job search attempt a few years ago wounded up in me not receiving responses from similar sized companies, though I’ve gotten much more experience since.

    The email does say that if I wasn’t a match, they wouldn’t contact me, so it’s at reassuring as I have a habit of rating my skillset lower than it possibly is.

    1. Daria Grace*

      I wouldn’t read much into it unless you have other very substantial red flags. Perhaps the hiring manager sits down once a week to review newly arrived applications and you just happened to submit a couple of hours before the time they do that every week.

    2. CAA*

      What Daria said.

      Also, if the ATS sends an email directly to the hiring manager or screener when a new application comes in, and the body of the email had enough information that she knew immediately she’d want to interview you, why not reach out right away? The whole point of this kind of technology is to make things more efficient and help companies find the best candidates more quickly. It sounds like it’s doing exactly that since it found you!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Love this reply. OP, some times good things happen. Roll with it. Let us know how it goes.

  186. Mirilla*

    I came very close to walking out of my job today. I had been job searching for a solid year when my mother became ill back in November (she died on Christmas Day.) My husband and I both had medical issues involving surgeries since then and I’m only now getting back to the job hunt. It’s been a really rough few months. I also am in the process of dissolving a long term friendship which I am realizing was pretty toxic. Challenging life events force you to evaluate your life and your relationships.

    I hope and pray I find something soon but I admit the job search really wore me down. However, I really can’t handle current dysfunctional toxic job much longer. I’m thinking of taking pretty much anything just to GTFO, even if it’s temporary. It’s that bad.

    I realized lately that life is too short to be that miserable 8 hours a day. I’ve never had a job where I have worked so hard, seen so much unfairness, dysfunction and felt so unappreciated and underpaid as I have at this job. And the thing is I’m good at this job. My former coworker told me out of her 30 years with the company I’ve done better at this job than anyone she has seen, and there have been many. The boss just doesn’t care. I can do 99 things right and all I hear is the 1 I missed.

    Meanwhile his overpaid manager WHO LITERALLY CAN NOT TYPE (sorry for all the caps I just still can’t get over someone who can’t type in their 60’s) gets away with everything with seemingly no repercussions.

    Anyone else been in a situation where you took something just to leave even if it wasn’t what you were looking for?

    1. Manders*

      I’m so sorry to hear about your mom. My mom’s sick right now too, and I’ve had a similar experience with seeing friendships and work in a different light because you just don’t have the energy to keep smoothing over the rough spots.

      I don’t have advice, just sympathy. It’s tough.

      1. Mirilla*

        Sorry your mom is sick and thank you for the support. I am glad you understand what I meant. I just really want to remove toxicity and drama from my life. I realize that I had been putting up with way too much at work and in a couple of my relationships.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      You have so many things pulling on you, it’s amazing you even still show up at work.

      I am so relating to your sentences about life events changing us on the inside.
      I’d like to encourage you not to be afraid of those changes and not to be afraid to go off in a new direction with your life/work.

      We are supposed to be moved/motivated by big events in our lives. It’s okay to move on, even if you are not sure where you are moving on to.
      You might be okay taking a job where the best you can say is “I can do the work and it pays the bills.”
      OTH, your next big thing might be right in front of you and you keep over looking it. That is easy to do, most of us do that at some points.

      My suggestion is find something that you can do for a year or two while you sort out other aspects of your life. Key part: Actually sort out other aspects of your life. Set personal goals for yourself and follow through on them.

  187. fishy*

    I have a question about criticizing a client. Now, I work for a company that does quality assurance for other companies – which means that, in general, pointing out things that are wrong with our clients’ systems is literally my job. But in this case, this client has two (interrelated) systems, and we’re only testing one of them.

    However, in order to test it, I have to do some interfacing with their other system… and in doing so I noticed that it has spectacularly, horrifically bad security. They literally went out of their way to set things up in a way that makes things LESS secure. It goes against every best practice out there. They’re doing a serious disservice to their own clients with their negligence in this area, IMO.

    Is it appropriate to bring this up with the client? Technically, my job is only to provide feedback on the other system, not this one, but this is frankly really bad. And if I do say something, is there a good way I can word it without sounding accusatory or like I think I know better than them? Honestly, I don’t understand how they could possibly NOT know better about this, so I’m having a hard time finding a diplomatic way to say it.

    1. Daria Grace*

      If it is a system you had legitimate need to interact with in the course of your work and not something you had to go digging to find, i think it’s legitimate to raise. Perhaps make it clear that this is not the main thing you focused on so they don’t worry about whether you’ve not been doing the work you’re meant to be doing. Maybe you could say something like “I haven’t looked into this in great detail because it wasn’t part of my brief, but when I had to use _______ system to ________, I noticed that ________ featured seemed not to have the usual security measures in place which can have serious consequences. Perhaps this is worth looking into further?”

    2. Not So NewReader*

      As a home owner, I have had professionals come in and recommend that I bring in other professionals to repair things adjacent to what they were working on. I am grateful for the advice. Usually I ask if they have someone they can recommend.

  188. Daria Grace*

    Is it acceptable to cite personal circumstances during development planning? In the next couple of weeks I’ll have to have a discussion about what new tasks and responsibilities I will take on. I’ve just been diagnosed with an illness that is likely to leave me stressed, tired and dealing with treatment side effects some of the time over the next few months. Is it acceptable to say something like “Long term, I’m committed to developing in my role here. However, given the health issues I’ve recently been diagnosed with will make things more challenging for a while, maybe it would be wise to make a more modest plan for taking on new things for this quarter and reevaluate in a few months for next quarter.”?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Probably depends on your relationship with your manager. That’s the kind of thing I’d love to know about as a manager so that I can be supportive and make sure we’re striking the right balance of business needs and personal needs in your role. But if you don’t get that vibe from your manager, you might not want to go there.

      Either way, perhaps a better way to phrase this is, “I’m really committed to reaching mastery in my current tasks right now. I want to focus on ensuring that I’m successfully meeting or exceeding expectations now, and work toward taking on new responsibilities in the future.”

      Good vibes for adapting to your new diagnosis!

  189. Urgent FMLA Questions*

    Okay, this ended up being way long, so here’s a TL;DR: I know things sometimes slow down on the open thread at night, but I hope some are still around because I have a kind of urgent situation. My director emailed two days ago asking for an update on my medical leave, specifically the nature of my illness, what treatment I’ll need, and how long I’ll be out. He wanted the update by 5 pm today at the latest (it’s now 6 pm where I am). I did email the HR person with those details by 5 pm, but I don’t want to give my director or supervisor that information as my leave is related to mental health. And as far as I understand the FMLA, I don’t need to give anyone other than HR the details – I should just be able to give my managers the dates I will be out. But how do I answer his email to let him know that I’ve given the HR person the details she’ll need as part of the leave paperwork, but don’t want to divulge that information to him?

    Here’s the long version, if you like to read!

    I asked for some information awhile ago about taking FMLA leave for a medical issue. I am in the process of doing that due to worsening depression and anxiety, actually I have been out of work for the last two weeks, but it’s not as straightforward as I anticipated.

    I feel like I’ve been bouncing between doctors for the past two weeks trying to get a treatment plan figured out, and in the meantime I know that if I go to work, I am not going to get anything done. The last day I was at work I spent most of the day just shaking at my desk trying not to have a panic attack and every time I’ve thought of going back since, I haven’t been able to stop crying. I’m a mess, basically, and it would be completely unfair to my employer and clients for me to go in and pretend to work.

    However, the two doctors I’ve been bouncing between both think the “routine” of work is better for me right now (despite me trying to convey how much I can’t do my job right now), so they have refused to fill out the FMLA paperwork. I did finally get two letters saying that I needed to miss work last week and then extending that through this week and next week. Then, at the end of next week I am going to be starting an intensive behavioral health program for 1-2 weeks, which will be full time so I won’t be able to work those weeks either. I’m hoping that someone on the staff there will be able to do the paperwork when I start there.

    The problem is that my boss is really not happy with not having a) the FMLA paperwork filled out yet and b) no definite end date for my leave. I think he and I are both confused over the process for taking leave under FMLA. Here is what I have done so far – I talked to my supervisor and the HR person about needing to take leave. Then when I ended up starting that leave unexpectedly, I emailed to request the leave start the first day I was out. In that email, I said that I anticipated the leave to be about 6-8 weeks, but I would be working with my doctor to figure out the details. I ended up going into the office the same day I emailed for a couple of hours to finish one client meeting, get some paperwork, and verbally follow up my email with my director (supervisor was out that day) and the HR person. Again, I said I was anticipating being out for 6-8 weeks.

    Now my director emailed me two days ago asking for an update, at the latest by 5 pm today. I did email the HR person this afternoon to give her an update with some details on the program that I’m going to be doing, the date I anticipate returning to work, and the reason I haven’t gotten her the FMLA paperwork yet. However, I don’t want to give all those details to my director & supervisor. So now I’m trying to figure out how to answer his email asking for an update, including specifics on the nature of my illness, treatment, and how long I expect to be out, when I don’t want to give him the details of the first two. Any advice on wording?

    1. Agnodike*

      Why not just say something along the lines of “Thanks for the reminder! I’ve forwarded those details to HR per your request.” No need to say that you want to keep your medical information confidential; just assume that your boss understands that and is in compliance with the law as you describe it.

      1. Urgent FMLA Questions*

        Huh, I’m not sure if that would work – though it might, I definitely do make things more complicated 99% of the time. I’m just worried that it won’t in this case because he specifically asked me to reply to him with the answers and CC the HR person.

        Now I’m trying to decide if it would make sense to try that first and then say something about confidentiality if he follows up with me about it again. Or if that would end up seeming kind of aggressive, where saying something about confidentiality in the beginning would come across more like I assume he knows the law. For me, I think it depends on how much I think it’s likely that he does know the law, which I really can’t decide.

        1. fposte*

          There’s at least one court decision that says HR *can* share confidential medical information about FMLA leave with the employee’s supervisors, so I’d stay away from making that claim.

          Whatever you do, I’d do it *fast*. That’s more important than perfect.

    2. fposte*

      Oh, sounds like you’re having a rough time; I’m sorry.

      As far as I can tell, the law doesn’t specify whether it’s HR or your manager who gets the details–they just need you to provide it to your employer. So that doesn’t mean the law protects you from your manager’s wishing to know; that’s an HR policy thing at your business. However, since it seems that you do have an HR policy, I think you can stand on it, while satisfying your manager’s legitimate need to know. “I’m sorry for the delay in responding. I’m in contact with HR on the paperwork since it needs to be filed with them, and they’re okay with my schedule for receiving it; I anticipate being out until April 30 [or whenever].”

      I know you’re not feeling well and it’s hard, but it’s really so much better to answer your manager even with an incomplete answer than not answer at all. When you’re at the edge of getting into a grey area, a manager is more likely to use her discretion to help you if you stay communicative.

      Good luck to you, and hope you’re feeling better soon.

      1. Urgent FMLA Questions*

        Thanks for the replies – I’m glad I saw them before hitting send. I saw something on the FMLA fact sheet that an employer can call an employee’s healthcare provider to get more information, but that it cannot be the direct supervisor who contacts the provider, which I think I assumed meant the direct supervisor isn’t entitled to access to details about the medical issue. I don’t think there’s any specific HR policy at my job that says this either.

        But it looks like this part isn’t as straightforward as I thought either. The official paperwork just says that the healthcare provider should include whatever appropriate medical facts are necessary to show that the leave is necessary, which can include a diagnosis and symptoms, but doesn’t have to. I found one court decision that said the employer wasn’t entitled to know the diagnosis, since it wasn’t a business necessity for them to know. In that case, the person was also considered disabled under the ADA, but I don’t know if that might apply to me, too.

        Anyway, you’re right that I need to do something fast.

      2. AnonAcademic*

        Seconding the emphasis on keeping open communication with the boss. Some information is better than none – something like “I am under the care of Doctors X and Y who have recommended I not return to work until Date. I will be undergoing treatment during and if that treatment is successful, I expect to return to work on Date. I will provide an update on my return date by Deadline.”

        As a manager if I had an employee out for 2 weeks of unspecified leave without context as to why I’d start to wonder if the person was doing the “slow fade” version of quitting or something. I’d also be frustrated wondering if we should hire a temp or reassign that person’s duties and for how long. So any amount of information is useful. If you’re not yet covering by FMLA and have exhausted PTO, you will need your manager to go to bat for you if that is a violation of company policy, and right now they may have no idea whether you’re home playing video games or caring for a dying parent or what.

        1. fposte*

          Yes, exactly. Urgent, I’m guessing that the problems you’ve had responding to the director are related to the reason you need FMLA–but your director doesn’t know that.

          I think you’re going down a legalistic hole, and your task right now isn’t legalistic; it’s to avoid making your director feel like you’re blowing him off. That doesn’t mean you have to make him happy with your answer or cover all his questions, but it does mean you need to contact him ASAP, and I mean I wouldn’t wait until Monday to email him, I’d do it now. It’s fine to cc: HR and basically say “Sorry for the delay; wanted to you know that I’m on it and HR has been given the information. I expect to be back April 30 [or whenever].” But you’ve been out of work for two weeks and it’s reasonable for your supervisors to want to be in the picture here.

  190. Overeducated*

    Had a Skype interview a few hours ago and can’t stop thinking of the two or three answers I feel like I screwed up and went in the wrong direction with. I am not really in need of a new job for another year and a half, so it’s not high pressure, but this would be a particularly cool one near my hometown. Sigh. Wish I had a redo!

    1. Urgent FMLA Questions*

      Can you send a thank you note with some clarification of or more thoughts on your answers?

    2. A.C. Stefano*

      From what I understand, this sort of thing is really good in the interview follow-up, the “thank you note”. Like, “I wanted to elaborate on X” or something. Is that correct, readers?

    3. Jillociraptor*

      In addition to adding a couple of notes in your follow up message to the interviewer, sometimes when I find myself doing this, I make a few notes in the OneNote notebook I use for job searching of the question and the answer/example I wish I had used. It really helps when I’m getting ready for the next interview!

      But with that said, I suspect you did a lot better than your brain is remembering right now. Good luck with the process!

  191. Anon Poster*

    Can I tell my control freak boss that I don’t want to get her ridiculous drink order anymore? For background, I work in a small business and I’m not a secretary.

    Sometimes when I go to get my lunch from a certain place my boss will ask me to bring her a coffee. I used to do it but now the instructions for her coffee have gotten long and in my opinion, obnoxious. She already had a specialty drink with extra flavors added. Then she added instructions for the exact steps the baristas must take to make it. Now she wants it all in a different type of cup than the one that her coffee normally comes in.

    I’m at BEC because every work task ends up being micromanaged like this. I’m surreptitiously applying for other jobs but is there anything I can say until then?

    1. Urgent FMLA Questions*

      A different type of cup & exact instructions? What the… Yeah, I don’t blame you for not wanting to put yourself or the barista through that. Can you not tell her when you’re going to that place?

      If that’s not possible, can you ask her to maybe call in her order and you just pick it up, since you don’t want to worry about getting it wrong? Or say that since you know she doesn’t want to end up paying for something that isn’t what she wants, it’s better for her to explain it to the barista directly so there’s no misunderstanding?

      Also, how much of your lunch break do you spend explaining her order & then waiting for it? I hope she gives you extra time for that!

      1. Anon Poster*

        So far I’ve been avoiding that place. I’m going to leave the ordering completely up to her and use animaniactoo’s suggested scripts to turn her down. I know if they don’t prepare it to her liking, she will march over there and demand something for free.

        It’s several more minutes than I’d usually take and she gives me the time back, but it’s an annoying several minutes.

      1. Anon Poster*

        Yeah, I’ve been going elsewhere for lunch. There are plenty of restaurants in the area so it’s easy to avoid the one place.

    3. animaniactoo*

      “I’m sorry, this is so detailed that I don’t feel comfortable picking it up for you. I don’t want to be responsible if it doesn’t come out right. I hope you understand.”

      “No, really. I’ve been apprehensive about this for awhile. Going forward, I don’t want to be responsible for anything more detailed on a personal favor than “add extra sugar””.

      (note, you really want to stress here that this is a personal favor and not part of your general work duties)

    4. Spacecadet51*

      YOUR lunch break is YOUR time and shouldn’t include getting coffee for the boss. At least select an item not requiring detailed instructions. I’d leave without saying anything or say you brought your lunch.

      1. Anon Poster*

        Thanks for the support. I feel like it’s been getting out of hand for a while. There are lots of restaurants near my work so it’s been easy to avoid the coffee place. And I should bring my own lunch more often.

  192. Spacecadet51*

    Okay just received a call I didn’t get position I applied for with my current employer. I’ve been overlooked so many times and I should be past it. But it still hurts.When the last department told me I didn’t get it I cried for a week. I told myself to stay neutral this time. So here I sit trying not to cry. I want out…..

    17 years at the same level and I can’t move. There are many others I see shifting around me, but I can’t. Hard worker, good reputation, tons of experience, going to school. Not sure what else I was supposed to do here.

    Who else has gone through this? Tell me that it will get better because I feel so trapped here.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      *HUG*
      I know how you feel. I’ve been trying to get out of the admin pool and it doesn’t look like I ever will. Either I don’t have the tech chops or I’m in the wrong place, and I can’t do anything about either.

      That doesn’t mean we won’t get out. *pokes universe*

    2. NaoNao*

      I haven’t, but my mom has this exact issue. She’s an incredibly talented editor, and she’s done great work for the company, but there’s just no room to grow and in fact there’s rumblings of an outsourcing coming up…

      Her solution was to take the focus off work, and put it on her passions. She had a side business for a few years doing styling and makeovers, she traveled, she joined a church and a choir, she wrote a blog, she was a docent at a film museum and she did costuming for a local theatre group. She went through a phase a couple years ago where she really wanted to change; she asked us kids (we’re very close and I’m almost 40, so it’s not like she was asking a young person here!) what we thought her talents were, what job possibilities were out there, and so on.

      I will say that there’s a couple things that can work against you:
      Having done the same job for so long, new departments may think “Can she learn something new?”
      If you’re in the latter half of your career, less than 10 years away from retirement, they may be looking at a long term picture “But how long will she stay?”
      If you’re TOO good at what you do, they don’t want to lose you!

      One thing I didn’t see was cross training or stretch skills—can you find the job description for the job you want and start learning those skills? Can you take classes or even get a new degree in the field you want to move into? Can you ask for mentoring from a colleague?
      Another thing I didn’t see was “well-liked” (you may very well be!)–this counts for *so* much when it comes to internal transfers. If you’re not already, start networking and making friends with people. Start taking note of names and after establishing a friendship, send out feelers “Hey, Bob, so nice chatting with you. I’m very interested in moving into Marketing—any feeling for what the job market is like over on your team? Any openings?” that type of thing.
      Make sure that what motivates you is less “out! out! out!” than a desire to grow and learn new skills, and try to show that to potential interviewers.

      1. Spacecadet51*

        Elizabeth – Thank you for the hug. Hopefully, we can both get out of our situations. It’s frustrating when you know you want to shift, but can’t. Do you look within the company you’re with, or outside? I’ve started looking outside. Best wishes to you as well.

        NaoNao – I believe the issue for me is #3 (If you’re TOO good at what you do, they don’t want to lose you!). It is very frustrating to think that they may be making a promotion/advancement difficult. I have begun looking elsewhere (other companies). There are maybe a couple of others I can tap into for mentoring. Most of the skills/experience for the job I want, I have. It’s the level I need more exposure to. I have two more years of school with a degree in business. It is hard to not focus on the “out!” because the environment is a bit toxic. When I interview, I do address that I am looking to grow and learn new skills. It just seems like maybe I need to look elsewhere

  193. RHCP*

    I might have to resubmit this next week, but here we go…deep breath in, open mouth exhale…

    I am dealing with a nitpicky jerk. Me = state dept of teapots; Nitpicker = teapot organization that needs to follow my state rules

    The teapots made in this state require that they be made as specified in our manual. The manual states all requirements A – Z. It tells you exactly what you need to do. In order to make the perfect teapot you must follow ABC…XZY, but of course there is some leeway and you can leave out a few letters here and there and still make a great teapot. This one fckface is giving me a lot of flack because I sent back his teapot with the corrections needed to make a great teapot (I already knew perfect was not on their radar nor did they have the capability to make a perfect teapot. The teapot he sent me was garbage). Making these updates requires some work on their end right now (not money, just time and effort), but no extra time or effort or money in the future. Once you make the updates, that’s how all future teapots are made by your organization.

    For the last month it has just been back and forth with “Topher”. Long story short, he doesn’t see why he should have to make the updates if the manual does not explicitly state so. Or when the manual does say, for example, that the teapot base must be 4 inches in diameter, he says that his 5 inch base did not stop teapot production or give him any problems. IDGAF TOPHER, it needs to be 4 inches!!!

    So, I re-read our manual to make sure I’m not just making things up and sure enough the manual is pretty clear. However…it isn’t strong enough for the few nitpickers like Topher. Plus, he’s right about the system not always indicating when teapots have glaring mistakes. This doesn’t happen often, but there are areas that need improvement in our own system that we are working on as we speak. At the end of the day, I just want them to be able to produce the best teapots for their clients and I told him this.

    Is this what toddles and teenagers are like? Toeing the line…pushing boundaries…constantly fighting you…in this case, trying to make barely functioning teapots. I’m going to bring this up to my manager next week, but I don’t know what else to say. “Because the instructions say so” is not a good enough answer. It doesn’t help that other states give different instructions. Last week Topher said, “Well New York didn’t need the teapot handle to be 2.5 cm in diameter…” Am I New York? Do I look like New York? Are you talking to New York? NO! Sit down.

    Anyone go through something similar? What did you say? I work with at least 100 other teapot companies and everyone just follows the manual.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Yes, that is exactly what toddlers and teenagers are like. I’ve developed many of my best lines from working with them.

      “The fact that something else could be worse does not mean that this is acceptable.”
      “Sometimes it is impossible to detail out every single last thing. I will agree that some information could be clearer, but the reason this process exists is to catch the things that weren’t. So yes, you do need to go back and do it again.”
      “It’s very lovely that Jack’s mom lets him do X. I am not Jack’s mom and I do not agree with doing X, so X will not be possible here. In the future, you may discuss why X should be possible and I will consider it, but in the meantime, no X.”
      “Life sucks. Get over it.”

    2. fposte*

      Years ago, in my misspent youth, I worked for an insurance company, and one of my jobs was to consolidate agent applications for different states. And North Dakota’s policy was that it didn’t return money if you screwed up the application–that was on you, too bad, so sad. Maybe you guys need to adopt a similar approach.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Not sure, are they filling a state or fed contract?
      This is the way federal contracts go. It’s exact or it’s in the dumpster. The waste is mind blowing. He needs to get over it. No one else is worried about this.

      I’d loop in your boss. Maybe your boss needs to talk to his boss.This might be a case where you need to use go/no-go thinking. They can either do the job or they can’t. It sounds like they are saying they can’t. It sounds like you have put enough time in trying to remedy and you need to bring other people into the situation.

    4. bunniferous*

      I deal with this sort of thing occasionally with property preservation vendors. I find being a broken record helps. I do not argue, I simply state what is required to be acceptable. Over and over and over again until they get that no, I am not going to let them slide.

  194. m*

    Very annoyed.

    This last week I was contacted to set up a time for an interview with a hospital. After getting off the phone I realized she didn’t specify if it was a phone or in person interview. I had assumed it was a phone interview but then remembered something she said that made it sound like an in person one. I was sent no confirmation email or location of where to go so I called back and left a voicemail to get clarification a couple of days later(I didn’t have her email). I was called back the next day to be told that my interview was canceled.

    Not sure what I did wrong. If it was a phone interview I thought I would at least have been told who I would be speaking with and whether or not I should be calling somebody or if they were calling me…

    1. Aisling*

      You didn’t do anything wrong. You called to confirm your interview, since she wasn’t clear about format. If, for some strange reason, they decided to not interview you because you have the “audacity” to confirm an interview, then it’s not the kind of place you want to work. What you did is completely normal.

      1. Anon...*

        I agree. (And it could be a case of they felt they’d interviewed enough people and it had nothing to do with you calling back and its just back timing), but especially if they cancelled because you had to confirm an unclear interview process…that’s totally on them and sends red flags

  195. MistyB*

    My boyfriend is 32 years old, and has never had an actual job or attended an interview in his entire life. He was a professional video game player for many years, and now currently streams video games to make money. It’s a precarious job with little job security or benefits. He claims to make several thousand dollars a month through donations, but I’m doubtful as to how long this lifestyle can last. It’s not like he can do this until he retires in his 60s.

    Since he streams all day, he rarely leaves his home unless it’s to run errands or grocery shop. He has never written a resume or cover letter in his entire life. He has no legitimate references, either. His parents and I want him to get a part time job outside the home, so that he can get some fresh air, be more active, have a better sleep schedule (he currently sleeps during the day, and is up all night), and gain some work experience and references. I know that his streaming career cannot last forever.

    He refuses to even look for jobs, or go to interviews. He insists that he is a gamer, and refuses to work a minimum wage job, since he claims he will make more money by streaming. His friends and gaming buddies agree with him, and think I am wrong for wanting him to work. I only requested that he work part time, maybe 2 days a week maximum so that he can get out of the house and interact with real live people. However, he still refuses, and continues to stay at home and stream. It’s causing tension in our relationship, and I’m not sure what else to do.

    Am I wrong for wanting him to work? Would this negatively impact his employment prospects in the future?

    1. animaniactoo*

      You’re not necessarily wrong, but you’re not necessarily right either.

      Stop asking him to get a job. Ask him to figure out how he is going to create financial stability for himself longterm, and what he will do if he stops receiving enough donations from streaming to live off of.

      Discuss the issues you see with his plans with him. Ask him if he’s comfortable taking those risks.

      If he can’t give you answers you feel comfortable with, you’ve raised the issue, he’s told you how he intends to live his life. You can’t nag or push him into living the way you want him to. All you can do is decide whether you’re willing to continue to be with him, as he is now. And if the answer is no, then you walk away – even while still caring about him.

      Will this negatively impact his employment prospects in the future? Almost certainly. But if he feels it’s worthwhile to deal with that, then it’s his choice to do so.

    2. Ultraviolet*

      You’re not wrong to be worried, and wanting him to work isn’t bad per se, but I think you’d be better off discussing your worries with him rather than focusing on the job idea. From what you’ve written here, it sounds like you’ve thought about the situation, thought of a possible solution to the problems you see, and then proposed the solution to your partner. But you don’t mention discussing the situation with your partner, and it’s not really fair or effective to skip that step. I recommend telling him what parts of the situation you’re unhappy with and what makes you worry for the future, and why you think him getting a part-time job would solve those things. Then ask what he thinks about it all.

      To be clear, him getting a part-time job is a reasonable idea, and it’s very fair for you to be concerned about his long-term financial stability. But I think you need to let him in on the problem-solving process a little earlier.

    3. University of Trantor*

      No, you’re not really wrong for wanting him to work in a more traditional job (and what sounds like a healthier lifestyle), and yes, a continuation of the status quo will likely affect his future employment prospects negatively.

      That said, it is his life to live, and he is apparently able to pay the bills with his current income (with assistance?). I would imagine from his perspective, he considers himself to be “working” when he’s streaming his video game sessions. And if you’re getting paid to do something, it’s not entirely unreasonable to consider that to be work.

      Your underlying concerns seems to stem from doubts about his long-term financial future (which seems to be on shaky ground) and possibly his less-than-healthy lifestyle. It’s definitely worth discussing/resolving these concerns with him, but that’s much more of a relationship-related conversation than it is a career/employment one. If he doesn’t want to/can’t change, you have to decide how much of a deal-breaker this is for you.

      If he does come to accept that he should find/transition to other more-traditional employment, what kind of skills does he actually have? Does he have an undergraduate degree? A high school degree? Without a high school degree / GED, I think most employment options are going to be pretty limited.

      Video game beta tester comes to mind as a possible occupation/contractor position, although they don’t pay terribly well, especially since it seems like quite a few developers just outsource beta testing to their fans now (free labor!).

      1. MistyB*

        Yes, he believes he is working when he streams, and insists he is a workaholic when he streams 13 hours a day. You are correct that I am concerned about his long term financial future. For example, he is currently banned from streaming for 30 days because he said something that was un-PC during a previous stream. So he’ll be without an income for 30 days. He’s really frugal with his spending (he rarely goes out), so he gets by on his savings and investments from previous tournament winnings and streaming sessions.

        He did not finish high school, and has no marketable skills. It’ll be sad when he’ll be in his 40s, competing for jobs against high schoolers :( The high schoolers might even have an edge, because they can use their teachers as references. I myself used my high school teacher as a reference for my first job out of university. There really is no one you can use as a reference when you are a streamer…

        Neither of his close gaming buddies work, either, so I really am in the minority. Funny thing is, I asked him if he would ever be interested in one of his gaming buddies (who is also a streamer, but not as popular as he is, so she makes less money), and he said no, he wants to be with someone who works >.<

        1. arjumand*

          I don’t think this really belongs in a discussion of work, ’cause this isn’t really about work, is it? This is about your boyfriend, and your relationship, both of which are raising a number of red flags for me.
          To quote Captain Awkward, both are full of bees.
          For example, this: “For example, he is currently banned from streaming for 30 days because he said something that was un-PC during a previous stream.”
          Take a look at your own wording, first of all. You call ‘un-PC’ something that was so offensive that it caused him to be banned for a month? I have real issues with that.
          Secondly, this : ” I asked him if he would ever be interested in one of his gaming buddies (who is also a streamer, but not as popular as he is, so she makes less money), and he said no, he wants to be with someone who works.”
          Because . . . what? So that if one day this work dries out, and his parents are dead, you’re his meal ticket? Look, if someone tells you who they are, believe them. He’s over thirty. He’s not changing. You, OTOH, need to decide if it’s (whatever you’re getting from this relationship) worth it.

          1. Ultraviolet*

            Misty’s question was essentially “Will someone who’s never worked a traditional job have trouble finding work later due to lack of references and experience?” That’s 100% appropriate for a discussion of work. It turned out, obviously, that most of us (me included) wanted to comment on non-work aspects of it. But Misty was right to post it here.

        2. Panda Bandit*

          I don’t think you two are compatible.

          Your last paragraph makes me think he sees you as a wallet. I agree that his chosen career is too precarious, especially since he just got banned from doing it for a month. What happens the next time he says something terrible? Will he get banned for even longer? How important is reputation in this field? Will he end up turning off his donators?

    4. fposte*

      MistyB, he doesn’t want to work the way you want him to, and he’s not going to. Your wanting him to isn’t going to change that. You say “I’m not sure what else to do”–you can do things that change you, not him. You can decide this isn’t a dealbreaker to you and let it go, understanding whatever the implications are for your finances if you share a household (which would include knowing more about his money than it sounds like you do now), or you can decide this is a dealbreaker and move on.

      I think you’re falling prey to the fallacy of “This person would be so great if only this fundamental thing about their nature and approach to life weren’t true, so if I can just change that we’re good!” But this fundamental thing about his nature and approach to life is him, and it’s not going to change; he’s even told you it’s not. So only stay with him if you’re okay with that.

      1. Hoorah*

        Unless he wins the lotto or somebody else supports him for the rest of his life, I don’t see this boding well.

        But if at this point he is still unconvinced about his need to consider alternative, long term, stable career options, I’m not sure if there is anything else you can say to change his mind.

        So the question for you is, are you OK with a boyfriend who doesn’t think it’s necessary to work a ‘proper’ job? Are you OK with the prospect of financially supporting him forever?

    5. Not So NewReader*

      It’s my belief that by the time people hit 32 they are pretty much showing you how they will go at life. If they have not done it or have not started working on it by age 32, then they probably won’t ever start.
      I know that sounds cynical and I know there are exceptions. Unless you see a very strong reason why his setting could change, it probably will not change. (The strong reason cannot be you or your relationship together.)

      No, you are not wrong for wanting a SO who works. Yes, this will impact his employment prospects in the future. He has the lifestyle he wants, do you? (Sincere question, not snark.)

    6. Ann O.*

      I work part-time in a nontraditional career path and am friends with people who are full-time in nontraditional career paths. I see many flags in your letter.

      If your boyfriend made enough money to pay his bills independently as a professional video game player, he had a job: professional video game player. It is nontraditional, but it was his job. It doesn’t sound like you respect his skill, passion, or success.

      I he is making enough money to pay his bills independently as a video game streamer, he has a job: video game streamer. It is again nontraditional, but so are a lot of Internet based jobs, and again, it doesn’t sound like you have any respect for his skill, drive, or interests.

      But it doesn’t really matter whether his job is a job or not if it means your lifestyle and his lifestyle are incompatible, which it sounds like they are. You want him to share your values that it is important to have fresh air, be active, sleep on a diurnal schedule, and prepare for the future. He doesn’t want these things. I don’t blame him, personally. It sounds like he has a dream life for his interests and needs. But that doesn’t mean he has a dream life for your interests and needs. There is nothing wrong with realizing that your lives and goals are incompatible. Nontraditional job paths can be challenging to mix with traditional job paths. My full-time performer friends work weekends, evenings, and holidays always. That can be hard to combine with someone who works a 9-5, and it can be VERY hard to combine for having a family.

      In regards to the future, he’s been able to live off of video gaming for (it sounds like) over a decade. IMHO, it’s reasonable that he views this as a sustainable job and doesn’t want to prepare for a change he doesn’t intend to make. Internet-based careers haven’t been around for long enough for anyone to say how stable they are, but we’re also in a moment of upheaval where automation, outsourcing, and general changes in technology/society make it unclear what careers are stable. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a person who currently has their dream job to worry about the future when it comes. But again, if you are a person who wants to be able to plan and save for retirement or other things, it is totally fine to decide that this is not a life approach that is compatible with you.

  196. a little temping teapot*

    I wanted to say Thank you! Thank you! I’m currently temping and my agency is, well, let’s say not really hands-on. So I asked about an extension (my contract was up at the end of March) and emboldened by this site and the excellent advice, asked for a raise. I phrased it softly, like, if it would be possible and noted I was asking because of the increase of responsibilities I had taken on since beginning the contract. I got both! Extended until October and $2 more an hour! (As I wrote, my agency is not very hands-on, they informed me of the extension, but my manager at work was the one to tell me about the raise.) I wouldn’t have asked without reading here and certainly wouldn’t have phrased it the way I did, which turned out to be the successful way to go.

    1. CAA*

      Congrats on successfully advocating for yourself! I am worried that your agency didn’t tell you about the raise though, and I think you need to go back to them ASAP and ask them how much of an increase you’ll be getting with the contract extension.

      The company pays the agency, and the agency pays you. Just because the company is getting $2/hr more for selling your services doesn’t mean they have to give you $2/hr more for the work you do. Typically temps get 50% to 60% of what the agency bills, so your actual hourly rate should go up by $1.00 to $1.20; but the agency could decide to keep all of the $2 for itself and not increase your pay at all. I hope that doesn’t happen, but I really think you need to ask, and if I were you, I’d start out by making sure they know that you negotiated the $2 increase so it’s not something they can somehow hide from you.

  197. Goober*

    I need help with an awful boss

    I have been at my company for a short while (only a handful of months) and I have found that my manager asks extremely personal questions, bad mouths other managers to us, discounts people based on age, and a long long list of other problems that honestly, without exaggeration, make me question their sanity. They also do not take constructive feedback well and become defensive and confrontational. It has gotten to the point where I do not feel comfortable being around them and speaking to them. I do not think I can speak with HR because there is a possibility it will get back to them and they are confrontational. I am an extremely non confrontational person and I really don’t know what to do. They bad mouth others to me and I have been told they are bad mouthing me to others. Recently another person has asked me if I may be interested in changing to another position in the company under another manager. If I were to do this, it would have to require a little bit of sneaking on my part, that the other manager is aware of. The thing is, with the way this management is allowed to behave, I honestly wonder about the integrity of the company and how many people in charge are like my manager. I know I have to do something, I am at the point where I dread going to work every day and speaking to my manager stresses me out for the remainder of the day, but I am not sure if I should leave (I will have to pay back expenses) or try this other avenue. Should I proceed with finding more out about this other position at the company or take the monetary loss that moving to another company will bring?

    1. Dot Warner*

      If you dread going to work every day, that’s not a healthy situation. (Don’t ask how I know this…) Find out more about the other opening at your company; there’s no guarantee that the other manager will be as bad as yours.

    2. Colette*

      What’s the worst case scenario of pursuing this other position? It’ll be as bad as what you have now? I’d say go for it.

    3. Goober*

      Thank you both for you replies. The other thing I worry about is that this manager notices and watches who I talk to. They have even gone so far as to say that they saw I spoke to person X and ask me what we talked about. I suppose I am afraid of what sort of confrontation will happen if my manager was to find out.

      1. LCL*

        Your manager has shown what kind of jerk he is. Good on you for observing, noticing and trusting your judgement.

        Here is my perspective, as a very confrontational person so quite different from yourself as described. (Not claiming I don’t have problems.)
        NONCONFRONTATIONAL PEOPLE HAVE DIFFICULTIES BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THEY HAVE TO ANSWER EVERY QUESTION TRUTHFULLY. But you don’t. Bullies use the incessant questioning because it works.

        When bully asks what you talked about, answer ‘football. The Seahawks are gonna be in the 2017 Super Bowl.’ Or, ‘my doggie. Let me tell you what he did and why he is the cutest doggie ever.’ Don’t cross the line into smart assery in this case, your bully has too much power. Certainly talk to the other manager and trust your judgement, it sounds right on so far.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      You are wise here.
      Yes, find out more about this other position and keep in mind that the whole company may have a fruit loops culture.
      Take the new position to give yourself a reprieve from the current nonsense. At the same time keep scanning the horizon to see what other opportunities are out there.

    5. Goober*

      Thank you all so much for your advice.
      LCL you are right, my first instinct is to tell the truth, which angers me because I shouldn’t have to put up with the question and that gives someone else too much power over things that are not their business. I hope things look up soon, thank you all again :)

  198. Allypopx*

    I’m just throwing this up here to vent: I have to work a big, all day, on my feet, public facing event today and I’m having the WORST cramps. Regular meds aren’t helping this is definitely a fetal-position-with-a-heating-pad day and I can’t do that and I’m sad. And cranky. And now I’m gonna go to work have a great day lovely people!

    3. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      Ugh! I also have horrific cramps, plus period poops today (the same hormones that start the period also push…other things…out…). I literally feel you!

      1. Anon...*

        Hmm and I thought it was just me that had that issue…glad to know I’m not alone there!

  199. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Super late for this, but it was deleted from the weekend thread:

    I am planning on getting a significant breast reduction, from F to as far down as looks proportionate. But I don’t want to talk about my assets at work or have people looking!

    How do I explain the time off need, and any resulting visual difference, without mentioning said assets? I hope it will help my breathing and posture and comfort while exercising.

    1. Goober*

      I personally wonder if you even need to mention the difference, I would hope most people would either not worry about it, or come to the conclusion themselves. As for explaining the time off, could you possibly just say that you will be undergoing a medical procedure and leave it at that. It isn’t anyone else’s business what sort of surgery you will have. I have heard at least 2 people say this at my old place and although people were curious, they ever asked more about it.

      1. SophieChotek*

        I agree. I believe someone asked something similar a few weeks back and just to talk about it as a standard medical procedure was the consensus. And I think some people even said that they’d known people who had similar procedures or had them themselves and some people didn’t notice or just assumed it was weight loss, etc. Best with the procedure.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      I’m so terribly late to this so I hope you see it. There’s definitely been another poster asking about this before- I believe Alison answered a question about it or threw it to the readers for input.

      If I’m remembering correctly, some of the suggestions included:
      -Giving your manager as much detail as fits your relationship when you put in for time off, like you could be vague enough as to say “I will be out for a medical procedure and for X# of weeks for initial recovery. I’ve been told I should be close to but not quite 100% for a bit after that in terms of lifting things, etc. (whatever applies to your job duties)”
      -Attempting to wear things that minimize the size/appearance of your chest leading up to the surgery, so that after you return people won’t know much of a difference (I know that must be hard with F-cups, my sympathies)
      -IF people mention you looking different at work after the fact, (we know here common sense isn’t always common, but we can dream) you could comment on having lost weight but not give detail beyond that, since it’s true but not descriptive

  200. Cubicle Conundrum*

    I work in an open room that is filled with semi-cubicles. They are not even really cubicles as there is a barely-there wall between each desk, so there is not much privacy. Others can easily see you around the wall and people walk back and forth behind. Two of the semi-cubicles are placed in a corner and are thus somewhat more private, and I have always wanted to sit there.

    When I first started working there, one of my coworkers sat in the corner cubicle by herself and it seemed like an unwritten/unspoken rule that no one was allowed to sit in the one cubicle next to her. This coworker has since retired, and I was really wanting to sit there but didn’t ask (there was also a manager upheaval going on at that time). Then our new manager allowed a newer-than-me coworker who ONLY WORKS HERE ONE DAY A WEEK (she went part time in the manager dust-up) to sit in the seat I had been coveting because it would be “better for her concentration.” Uh, well it would be better for my concentration too, and I’m there 5 days a week!

    Do you think it would annoy my new boss or the corner coworker if I asked to sit in the cubicle next to her? I’d be there alone 4 days a week and just that would be pretty good. Or am I just being petty/stupid?

    1. Book Lover*

      The worst that could happen is that they could say no? I don’t see why it could bother anyone to ask, but maybe think through why you have concerns first.

  201. jordanjay29*

    I’ve been looking at Glassdoor reviews for a company I’m interviewing with soon, and I’m seeing a company rep actually responding to reviews. Most of the responses are thanking the reviewer and sometimes directing them to corporate resources for problem resolution (manager or HR helpline). I’m wondering how much good this really does (I wouldn’t consider Glassdoor an appropriate avenue for directing employees to resources, but maybe that’s just me), and whether it impacts the company’s reputation.

    The responses aren’t negative or resentful for any comments, but they can be a little too self-congratulatory at times. It just seems odd to me that the company felt it had to respond to reviews directly. Am I weird for feeling this way?

  202. DataQueen*

    Looking for feedback on Volunteer Day policies across various organizations… I am in the process of developing a policy for our company (professional org, all exempt full time employees, normal PTO is 3 weeks starting with 1 week added every 5 years of tenure.) Does your company offer volunteers days in addition to your PTO or be used to perform community service activities (not company sponsored – personal ones). How many days? Do you have to apply to get them? Do you need to have proof you were volunteering? Do people like the policy? Is there any bitterness from people who don’t personally like to volunteer seeing this as “extra vacation”? Any and all feedback is so appreciated! One caveat – I am not in HR, but as the person who has asked for a policy (I use 8 of my 20 PTO days for volunteer work each year, and would love to not have to use as many), I offered to work on the policy and do some recon.

    1. Aa*

      My company provides one volunteer day per year. No idea if proof is required; I’ve never taken it.

    2. Quinalla*

      We are starting something similar at my company, going to give employees 10 hours of volunteer time each year. There is no proof required, just to put it in the correct bucket on the timesheet and note what it was for in a very general way. Since it hasn’t been fully rolled out, I can’t fully comment, but folks who know about it are neutral to excited about it, haven’t heard anyone complaining.

    3. Sualah*

      We get 16 hours of volunteer time off (VTO) each year. It can’t be carried over at all. It is good for any non-profit, but it has to be volunteering during the work day (that is, you can volunteer as a chaperone for your kid’s field trip from 10 am- 2 pm on Thursday, but you can’t take VTO to attend a parent-teacher conference at 7 pm at night, or to help run a school carnival on a Saturday). The amount of proof required depends on your manager, and I’ve never had any manager ask for proof. You just put it on your timesheet, like any other time off used (holiday, sick, regular PTO). You “apply” for it in that your manager can turn down time off requests, but if there’s coverage, I’ve never seen it turned down.

      Our company likes to brag about how much “community involvement” our employees have, and I think showing how much VTO is used is an easy metric for that and requiring too much proof could just lead to people not using it at all. For me personally, even if people are kind of taking it as extra vacation days…it’s 16 hours, over the course of a year. I don’t approve of anyone doing that, but there are so many other things I’ll spend time worrying about than if Jane really volunteered at the animal shelter for a full 16 hours from January-December.

  203. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I hope this one gets seen…posted it in the weekend one, oops :/

    So, my SO met my very close family friends I grew up with yesterday, ’twas nice.

    Also one of said friends suggested I use my degrees to be an adjunct professor (online courses, nighttime after my day job). Has anyone done this, and how’s it worked out? Pitfalls? Unexpected perks? Unforeseen challenges?

  204. paul*

    a few days late (it’s Monday) but my employer just announced an emergency director and above level meeting. Rarely is my backside this puckered over meetings. I just can’t see this being good.

  205. Wakeen's Hanukkah Balls, Inc.*

    From the “not-a-good-sign” files: I just had a phone interview which the interviewer said would probably be 20 minutes or so. It ended up only lasting 14 minutes, and the interviewer did NOT give me the chance to ask questions of them.

    A lot of interviewers make up their minds early on in the interview. Maybe they decided I wasn’t a good fit and didn’t want to waste their (or my) time???

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