Ask a Manager

{ 1,607 comments… read them below }

1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:04 am

   WTF Sally. Okay yes, poor management judgement, but Sally acted like a Grade A narc + drama llama and I’d happily let her move on.
   It’s not like they were doing heroin in their hotel room. Good Lord.
   1. blackcat* April 12, 2017 at 11:08 am

      Well, is Sally is super anti-drug, she might not see a difference between weed and heroin.

      (I don’t agree with that at all, I’m just trying to understand where Sally is coming from).
      1. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 11:11 am

         Just because Sally may believe something that ridiculous doesn’t justify her acting this way.
         1. anon druggie* April 12, 2017 at 11:19 am

            Agreed. As a recovering alcoholic and drug addict who is pro-legalization but very strongly doesn’t want a second-hand high, I am as about as supportive of each side of the debate as anyone I have ever met. Sally way overreacted and I suspect she is asking for the transfer to avoid the drama that she herself created. I would not give it to her.
            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 11:49 am

               I think you’re dead on here. Like, yes, the smoking weed on a business trip was poor judgment, and doing it around coworkers you don’t know well was dumb. She’d have been totally justified in bringing it up with the manager. But the level to which she’s overreacted, and the level of drama she’s created, just speaks of bad judgment to me.

               If you hold strong, minority views about voluntary, victimless activities, your views are valid, but maybe consider that countervailing views are also valid before you drop the boom on everyone involved.
               1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 11:59 am

                  And the other thing is….Jesus, the cops? Seriously? Now, the coworkers are going to have to deal with drug charges, which has the potential to derail their lives and careers pretty massively. Getting fired for smoking weed on a work trip would have been proportional, but I think it’s downright unethical to twist the knife like that.
                  1. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 12:01 pm

                     Sally did not call the cops. The hotel did.
                     1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:04 pm

                        They’re obligated to, if something like that is reported to them. Once Sally reported it, she would have known very well that the cops would be called.
                     2. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 12:21 pm

                        @Mad Scientist, LawPancake commented below that they worked at hotels before and would not have reported to the police. I don’t think it’s clear that all hotel employees are obligated to report and (if true) I don’t think it’s fair to assume everyone knows that (I did/do not).
                     3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm

                        That’s fair, I suppose – I worked at a hotel one long summer, and we were required to refer all such calls to the cops.

                        Man, was that a weird job.
                     4. CanCan* April 12, 2017 at 1:08 pm

                        Whether or not the hotel was required to call the cops, what did Sally expect the hotel to do? Unless the co-workers were disturbing Sally (i.e. the smell of pot filtered into Sally’s room), it’s not anything to do with the hotel. And even if it was the smoke that was bothering her, it would have been decent of her to try to deal with it on her own first (i.e. leave the room they’re in and go to her own room, and if still bothered by smoke – tell that to the coworkers and ask them to stop).

                        She basically saw her colleagues as criminals and treated them as such.
                     5. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 1:25 pm

                        @CanCan, I think that the hotel has a right to know when illegal activity is occurring on their property.

                        Illegality aside, they were smoking in a (presumably) non-smoking room. I would certainly call the front desk if someone was smoking a cigarette in the room next to me.
                     6. Ted Mosby* April 12, 2017 at 1:26 pm

                        @Cancan that’s just not true. It very much has to do with the hotel. Most hotels don’t allow smoking in rooms because the smell is difficult to get out, and time and money are wasted on cleaning. Sally overreacted but it’s illogical to go to the other extreme and say it’s not the hotel’s business. Maybe she expected the hotel to tell them to stop smoking. I smoke occasionally but I dislike smell and I never let anyone do it in my house, let alone in a carpeted room full of linens where the smell is going to linger.
                     7. StrikingFalcon* April 12, 2017 at 5:00 pm

                        I will say, as someone who fully supports decriminalizing marijuana, that smoking it in a non-smoking room is something the hotel should be concerned about. I think that someone who wants to smoke any substance owes their host (in this case the hotel) the courtesy of making sure they are fine with it before doing so, because smoke gets into fabrics and can affect people’s health. I can understand why the hotel would have a policy of “it’s illegal, we’ll just call the cops and let them handle it.” That being said, I think Sally should have told her coworkers not to smoke in the hotel rather than just leaving and reporting it. But this kind of situation is exactly why I don’t think smoking marijuana should result in arrests! It’s unprofessional to do at a conference but an unreasonable thing to derail someone’s life over.
                  2. Salyan* April 12, 2017 at 2:01 pm

                     If the coworkers didn’t want charges, perhaps they shouldn’t have done something illegal. Wherever one stands on the drug debate, that’s a pretty standard motto for life.
                     1. Chalupa Batman* April 12, 2017 at 3:32 pm

                        I know it may be unpopular, but I agree with this view 100%. I don’t imbibe, but I’m pro-legalization for various reasons. However, until it IS legal, you accept the consequences of using it, including the risk of arrest. I don’t think Sally overreacted by reporting them, and frankly, the supervisor and colleague were much more in the wrong than she was. I do agree that hopping a bus and leaving the conference was unprofessional, but everything else was reasonable. Not saying those were the only reasonable options, just that they WERE reasonable options. I would also have trouble working under a manager who exercised poor enough judgement to do something where they could, and in fact did, get them arrested on a business trip. Sally was a little high strung about it, sure, but the only thing she did that was unethical was leave the conference, and maybe being so vocal about her opinion on the manager and colleague’s punishments not being severe enough (not really her business). Maybe that makes me high strung too, I dunno. The way I see it, OP seems to be letting the fact that their attitude about marijuana is more relaxed than Sally’s impact their reaction to the situation. Sally did something she saw as ethical when faced with an ethical dilemma, and her choice is backed by the law as an appropriate response to her situation. Give her the dang transfer, she’s obviously not a culture fit where she is now.
                     2. PlainJane* April 12, 2017 at 4:01 pm

                        I’m going to express a different yet probably also unpopular view: if your co-workers, neighbors, or random strangers aren’t doing anything that hurts someone, don’t be a tattletale. And yes, I use the word “tattletale” deliberately here. I generally agree with Alison that there’s no tattling at work, but this example feels like an exception. I could sort of see Sally telling someone at work when she got back–especially if they were pressuring her to partake after she said no–but what she did reeks of, “There are breaking THE RULES ™ and I’m going to do something about it”–with no regard for the consequences (and yeah, they did something illegal, but in this case, consequences can be massively disproportionate to the offense). I’m no fan of drug use–hell, I don’t even drink alcohol–but I despise authoritarians who elevate rule-following above everything else (like basic human decency and care for your co-workers). If no one’s getting hurt, MYOB.
                     3. Susana* April 12, 2017 at 4:22 pm

                        Well, yeah. In theory. But she could have just said no and gone back to he room, perhaps informing manager upon return. Taking photos and going to hotel management – knowing law enforcement would almost certainly get involved – was way over the top. Taking a bus home was unprofessional enough that Sally should be disciplined as well. But her insistence that the co-workers should be fired is what really displays her over-reaction – she has no standing to demand their dismissals. If they assaulted her or something, yes. Honestly, I’d speak sternly to the doobie-smoking employees, tell Sally there’s no transfer available to her, and let her leave. I doubt her sschoolmarmish ways are limited to her behavior at this conference.
               2. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 12:07 pm

                  Are they minority views? I think that probably depends a lot on where Sally and her colleagues live. In a big city, sure, a lot of people won’t blink at recreational pot use. Deep in the bible belt though? I suspect that would be a much different atmosphere.
                  1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:10 pm

                     Nationally, and across party lines, they’re very much minority views, and not just in big cities. You might be able to find some very rural, conservative areas where they’re majority views, but this falls under the heading of “Not everyone can eat sandwiches” arguments.
                  2. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 12:14 pm

                     I’m from CA and I went to college in the Bible Belt around a lot of religious people. People smoked weed there as much as back home or anywhere else.
                  3. Shannon* April 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm

                     I live deep in the Bible Belt. Weed is around here just as much anywhere else in the country. This is a Sally problem, not a cultural problem.
                     1. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 12:40 pm

                        Pretty much this. Over the years, national polls have shown a shift in attitude about weed use. Most people polled agree it should be legalized. The belief that it is just as bad as (insert horrible drug here) is not only outdated, but not backed up by science or opinion.
                  4. Honeybee* April 12, 2017 at 12:50 pm

                     The Bible Belt (where I’m from) is actually a pretty diverse place with lots of diverse pockets – including many big cities – and I’ve found that religiosity doesn’t necessarily correlate that well with people’s dispositions towards marijuana. I know plenty of really religious churchy folks who smoke. Sometimes regularly.
                     1. Retail HR Guy* April 12, 2017 at 1:02 pm

                        Also from the Bible Belt, and that’s pretty much the opposite of my experience. I’ve always found there to be a very strong correlation between religiosity and being anti-marijuana.
                     2. VroomVroom* April 12, 2017 at 2:56 pm

                        I second Retail HR Guy. I’m from the Bible Belt and most people who I know who are SUPER religious are very anti-marijuana.

                        But, tbh there aren’t really very many SUPER religious people anymore. That’s sort of in the minority these days. There are plenty of people who are SUPER christian on Sundays but partake in marijuana, premarital sex, etc. every other day of the week.

                        I prefer to be just semi-religious every day (I am never going to try to ‘save’ someone, and I don’t go to Church regularly, but I do on occasion and I certainly identify as Christian) so that I don’t feel like such a hypocrite when I curse or (formerly, married now) engaged in premarital sex. I’ve never been big into marijuana – not because I’m against it, but I don’t like how it makes me feel. I don’t really appreciate when other people do it either… but I do agree it should probably be legal. What I don’t appreciate is I used to have a neighbor who smoked so much that my apartment smelled like Weed. I finally complained about the smell to the landlord, who called the cops on them. I felt sorta bad about that, but jeez don’t do it inside – you’re ruining someone’s property value and all of my clothes smelled like weed all the time (across a hall, no less!). It wasn’t the fact of the weed, it was the fact it was inconsiderate. I’d have complained if it were cigarettes too – and our complex had a strict no smoking policy.
                  5. yasmara* April 12, 2017 at 1:23 pm

                     Despite a growing shift in public opinion, my Very Large Company would almost assuredly have fired the pot-smoking employees immediately. They would never allow the optics of “employees caught using illegal drugs at conference” to even be hinted at (this information is public due to the arrest record). They would consider it grounds for immediate dismissal.

                     Personally, I’m 100% on the side of legalization, but until that happens, I would expect as an employee that if I was caught, I would be fired, unfortunately. I agree that as a rational adult person, Sally overreacted greatly in my mind. If my views were more in alignment with Sally’s, I can see notifying the manager, but I cannot see notifying the hotel/police.

                     My other thought was, “I hope the employee was in a smoking room because that smell does not come out easily!”
                     1. The Mayor of Llamatown* April 12, 2017 at 3:33 pm

                        This. Many companies have a zero-tolerance policy and consider conferences/work travel to be included in that. Illegal is illegal whether or not you agree with the law.
                     2. Stranger than fiction* April 12, 2017 at 3:42 pm

                        I’m a little surprised people are saying the smell lingers or affects property values or whatever. I’ve found it’s nothing like cigarettes with all the tar and nicotine that turns your curtains yellow and stuff. I used to sneak weed in the house when my parents were away for the night and there were never any traces the next day (or sometimes mere hours later) and my mom has a nose like a drug sniffing dog. Plus I have coworkers who partake at lunch and I never smell it on them, when meanwhile every cigarette smoker smells like an ashtray right after.
                     3. Judge Crater* April 12, 2017 at 4:30 pm

                        I’m 100% in favor of legalization.

                        But on the federal level, marijuana is a schedule one drug, just like heroin or cocaine. And federal law does supersede any state laws, whether it’s enforced or not.

                        Frankly I think the two employees smoking on a business trip are very lucky not to be fired. There’s a possible liability issue for the company if, for example, those employees then got into their company-paid for rental car and hit someone.

                        I would not have acted as Sally did, but on the other hand do you want to start setting standards on which illegal behaviors an employee should report, and which she should not?
               3. FYI* April 12, 2017 at 1:01 pm

                  Can I clear something up here? Smoking pot, or anything else, in a place with shared walls is not victimless. Smoke doesn’t stay in your room. It’s affecting your neighbors, some of whom could have very valid medical reasons to not want to breathe in secondhand smoke (asthma, pregnancy, etc.) and others who have a right to be able to not have to breathe in chemicals they didn’t choose to.

                  I’m not defending Sally’s response, and if people want to smoke in their own homes, more power to them. But smoking in public or semi-public places does affect the people around you.
                  1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:04 pm

                     I think it can be reasonably assumed to be victimless unless we’re quite sure someone was actually victimized.
                     1. SimonTheGreyWarden* April 12, 2017 at 1:36 pm

                        Well, my asthma attacks would beg to differ, but I wouldn’t want the person smoking pot to be arrested, just to stop smoking it where I can smell it. (I lived in an apartment for several years above recreational smokers in a state where it isn’t legalized; I never called the cops, but during the summer I couldn’t have my windows open and I had to run a couple of ionizer machines constantly or else I would wake up at night gasping for air.
                     2. Anonymous 40* April 12, 2017 at 1:39 pm

                        Would your reaction be the same if someone was smoking tobacco in a shared space that is explicitly smoke-free? If someone smokes a cigarette in a non-smoking room of a hotel but nobody calls to complain, would you excuse the smoker on the assumption that nobody was bothered?
                     3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:58 pm

                        I’m reacting the way I’m reacting because it seems pointless to speculate on things the OP didn’t tell us and which we can’t possibly verify. Someone may well have been victimized, but I see no reason to assume that from the original letter.
                     4. JB (not in Houston)* April 12, 2017 at 2:32 pm

                        The reasonable assumption is that someone else was affected in a negative way since smoke is notorious to get out, and it’s an unreasonable assumption that the hotel would not have any guests in that room or surrounding rooms for the time it took to effectively remove the smell. But in any case, FYI didn’t say that there were definitely people affected by it this time. They seemed to be speaking more generally (and as someone with asthma, I really wish more people would remember how much smoke lingers).
                     5. Naruto* April 12, 2017 at 2:47 pm

                        No, I think FYI is right. There’s second-hand smoke, it’s a hotel, and it affects the people staying there, the people who will stay there, and employees. It’s not speculation. Or at the very least, it’s actually more speculative to assume that it is victimless.

                        I’m pro-legalization and wouldn’t have narced on my coworkers here, but I think it’s just a fact that smoking in an enclosed, public space has this kind of impact.
                     6. VroomVroom* April 12, 2017 at 3:01 pm

                        I disagree. A hotel room is used by at the least hundreds of people a year, and the neighboring rooms as well. I’ve walked into rooms that obviously the previous occupant had smoked in (despite being non-smoking rooms, despite being cleaned/de-smoked between) and I can’t handle the smell at all.
                        There are plenty of people out there like that. The odds that one of the hundreds of people who are affected by a semi-public space and is therefore affected, are high enough that it cannot be assumed victim-less until proven otherwise.
                     7. Anonymous 40* April 12, 2017 at 3:24 pm

                        I’m reacting the way I’m reacting because it seems pointless to speculate on things the OP didn’t tell us and which we can’t possibly verify.

                        But you are, you’re just making the opposite assumption:

                        I think it can be reasonably assumed to be victimless unless we’re quite sure someone was actually victimized.
                     8. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 3:28 pm

                        That’s the default assumption.
                     9. Lora* April 12, 2017 at 3:49 pm

                        Strategy that actually works when the person across the hall is smoking in their room and it reeks something awful and you are getting the beginning of a horrible migraine: Stuff a towel under their door (not your door, theirs). Solves the problem and often they are a little embarrassed that you did this for them. Ask them to open their window or something.

                        Source: ex who smoked enough for like…Amsterdam.
                     10. Anonymous 40* April 12, 2017 at 4:18 pm

                         That’s the default assumption.

                         Clearly that’s not universally true. What’s with the personal opinions given as objective facts?
                  2. shep* April 12, 2017 at 1:13 pm

                     I’m pro-legalization (although I am asthmatic so I don’t smoke) and absolutely don’t condone the way Sally reacted, but you mention shared walls. My old apartment was one of two units built into a very old, thin-walled house. The other unit was comprised of a couple who smoked pot CONSTANTLY. Because of the old/thin walls, the smell leeched in. It was usually faint and only noticeable in specific areas of the unit, but every once in a while, oh my god the smell. I used to get sandwiches with a light pesto spread from the grocery store down the street, and for a few months my partner was convinced I’d dropped a piece of pesto sandwich under the couch before we figured out it was the neighbors. *facepalm*
                     1. Venus Supreme* April 12, 2017 at 1:40 pm

                        HAHAHA That’s a hilarious story.
                     2. VroomVroom* April 12, 2017 at 3:05 pm

                        Yes, I formerly lived in an apartment building that had a strict no smoking policy. My across the hall neighbors smoked weed so frequently that it permeated my unit and my clothes and furniture constantly smelled like weed. I don’t partake, but I do support legalization. That doesn’t mean that I want the smell in all of my shit though!

                        I finally complained to the landlord (who was very hands off and I never once saw him come by in person, but I assumed he was at least complicity aware) about the smell of smoke. Apparently he was not aware – he came by on an inspection and became aware that it wasn’t just cigarette, but weed smoke. He later called the cops on the tenants (something in the lease about if arrested for possession of illegal drugs he could void their lease) and was able to kick them out.

                        I sort of felt bad about the cops, but jeez, they shouldn’t have been smoking inside a unit with a strict non-smoking policy. He updated my lease the next year to have VERY STRICT wording regarding smoking.
                  3. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 1:33 pm

                     Yes. As someone whose asthma is very seriously triggered by that smell, people who do it in shared spaces are assholes.
                     1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:58 pm

                        That’s fine, but any speculation that there were people in this situation who were victimized is entirely that, speculation.
                     2. Sketchee* April 12, 2017 at 2:10 pm

                        Its not really speculation. If your in a hotel, the assumption is that it’s a shared space. Your assumption that it wouldn’t be is just incorrect.
                     3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 2:37 pm

                        There’s a thousand reasons someone might, or might not, have been victimized. I can speculate that they were smoking on the balcony, or that it was a smoking floor, or that they were on the top floor. Who knows? Given that it’s basically irrelevant, let’s table it and move on.
                     4. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 3:16 pm

                        I’m not really clear on what you mean by “move on.” I responded to this:

                        I’m not defending Sally’s response, and if people want to smoke in their own homes, more power to them. But smoking in public or semi-public places does affect the people around you.

                        Agreed that people who smoke weed in shared spaces are assholes is not “speculation.” I’m not arguing that Sally’s manager in particular and people who smoke weed in shared spaces caused someone to miss the conference or go to the hospital or have their vacation ruined. I’m saying that someone smoking cannot know one way or the other, and it’s a common enough issue that doing so is an asshole thing to do.
                     5. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 3:28 pm

                        If I concede that yes, sometimes smoking weed in common spaces can victimize people, can we please stop harping on this incredibly tangenital nit-pick that has basically nothing to do with my original point? Please?
                     6. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 3:32 pm

                        Because, okay, I concede that. No problemo. But in context, I was pretty obviously referring to the use of weed in general as being victimless, not this particular, specific situation:

                        “If you hold strong, minority views about voluntary, victimless activities, your views are valid, but maybe consider that countervailing views are also valid before you drop the boom on everyone involved.”

                        In general, there is no direct, aggreived victim when someone smokes weed, in contrast to acts like theft, assault, harassment, murder, or whatever. That was really what I was driving at.
                     7. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 3:57 pm

                        I mean, yes? I was literally just agreeing with FYI to agree that smoking in public or semi-public places does affect the people around you. I get that that was a reply to something that you posted, but I’m a little confused your responses to me here when I never argued with the quote you just repeated in the first place.
                  4. SarahTheEntwife* April 12, 2017 at 1:35 pm

                     Yeah, if it was a hotel that has smoking rooms, fine, I’m just not going to stay in that hotel. But if this was a room where you’re not even supposed to be smoking tobacco heck yeah I’m reporting it to the hotel.
                     1. VroomVroom* April 12, 2017 at 3:07 pm

                        Yea, if I smelled smoke of any kind from a room that’s in a non-smoking hotel I’m staying in, I’d report it to the front desk. Though I may be LESS likely to do so if I knew the occupants of the room – I might just say “hey y’all you know you’re not supposed to smoke in here… also I hate the smell so can you do it outside instead.” But if they were rando strangers? Yes, I’d call and complain IMMEDIATELY.
                     2. Elizabeth West* April 12, 2017 at 3:14 pm

                        I might report smoking in a non-smoking space too, because what if they fell asleep with a lit cigarette? It happens all the time. People start fires like that.
                  5. Stranger than fiction* April 12, 2017 at 3:43 pm

                     Depends how the hvac is set up.
                  6. Susana* April 12, 2017 at 4:26 pm

                     FYI, I don’t think anyone here is arguing that it was a good idea or at all considerate for co-workers to smoke weed in a hotel at a conference, no less. It’s sally’s reaction that makes some of us sound sympathetic to the smokers. And Stranger – love that description of your mom as having a nose like a drug-sniffing dog. Hilarious!
            2. Amy Pfaffenberger* April 12, 2017 at 1:32 pm

               Exactly. I also may think Sally is very young? I don’t know but maybe she is sheltered and young and just doesn’t know anything. That’s rough though, I hope they weren’t forcing her to where she felt she had to leave, but she could have said no, left and then talked to her manager after the conference. Alerting the hotel is way too much!!
         2. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 11:25 am

            That’s pretty much what’s been drilled into people’s heads since the War on Drugs started, though. Anyone who went through DARE as a kid was not given an accurate representation of the differences between different drugs, so if she hasn’t been exposed to marijuana a lot, someone offering you a joint might as well be someone offering you a needle to shoot up with – the perceptions are that screwed up. If you think your manager is casually doing hard drugs on a work trip, you might be pretty freaked and overreact.

            As someone who lives in a state with legalized marijuana and where it’s been decriminalized for years, you’d look totally nuts if you had this reaction here. To me, a joint isn’t much different from someone offering you a drink. But I’m trying to put myself in Sally’s shoes assuming she doesn’t know better, and while I still think it’s a little over the top, I can see why she didn’t just say no and move on like most of us probably would’ve done.
            1. Chris* April 12, 2017 at 11:32 am

               ‘When in Rome’ applies here. They weren’t in a state with legalized marijuana when it happened, and failing to recognize that shows very poor judgement on the part of the supervisor.
               1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 11:39 am

                  Right, that’s what I’m saying. I’m trying to explain that I understand Sally even if I personally can’t imagine reacting that way. I was providing context for why many commenters here might find this reaction insane and trying to remind people that not everyone lives in an environment or has received an education that would give you a more lowkey reaction to marijuana use. I wasn’t trying to say Sally should’ve just let it go because if they were in some other state it wouldn’t have been an issue.
                  1. Ted Mosby* April 12, 2017 at 1:30 pm

                     i think chris was agreeing with you.

                     sally’s reaction was, IMO, bizarre, but I think you’re 100% spot on. Even having people you manage back to your hotel room to drink is a little sketchy in most circumstances. offering someone you don’t know well something illegal is just such bad judgement. everyone in this story had some weird judgement calls going on.
                     1. Rouge* April 12, 2017 at 2:17 pm

                        It’s also possibly a gendered reaction. I am going to be very distrustful of a male manager inviting a subordinate in for a drink with no work-related purpose, because although very few men are creepy/rapey, that is one of the common setups that many opportunistic sexual predators prefer to use.

                        So (to borrow from another post), while the probability of this guy being a criminal is low, the consequences of being wrong about his intentions are awful, so overall, the risk is high.

                        If the Schrodinger’s Rapist problem was part of her reaction, she might not have admitted that to a manager, but it would explain why she reacted so strongly.
                     2. Troutwaxer* April 12, 2017 at 2:19 pm

                        How old Sally is and what she knows/has been told about weed is definitely a factor here. If you decide to keep her you should probably make sure that she has information about weed that tells the other side of the story and that she understands that an employee using weed is not a big deal as far as you (or the company?) is concerned.

                        She should also be carefully schooled in the damage she has done to her colleagues. Weed use can be a big deal in hiring and other legal issues, not to mention that he colleagues could well do time.
                     3. KS* April 12, 2017 at 2:35 pm

                        Could also be someone older who went for the Reefer Madness propaganda and won’t unlearn it. That, in my experience anyway, seems more likely!
                     4. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 2:43 pm

                        Does it make any difference that the manager offered it to Sally and another coworker at the same time? Genuine question, as a guy I don’t have a good read on what triggers that uneasy feeling in women. For you or in general, does it feel less weird if it’s not a one-on-one situation?
                     5. Jules* April 12, 2017 at 5:16 pm

                        LBK, offering it to multiple people doesn’t make it less creepy.
                        1) Offers to 2 females: could be checking to see which one will provide opportunity
                        2) Offers to 1 female, 1 male: Could be looking for plausible cover for additional later boundary crossing.

                        A male supervisor crossing a female’s boundary is instant creepy, whether it’s done alone or as part of a group. The supervisor’s reaction to the female asserting the boundary has a *small* chance of undoing the creepiness. But many women have a hard time asserting the boundary, and Schroedinger’s Rapist (or Stalker, or Retaliatory Boss) is very much part of the situation.

                        Captain Awkward has a lot of conversations about this kind of dynamic.
               2. Jesmlet* April 12, 2017 at 12:17 pm

                  It’s not like they went to a different state though so they’re never somewhere with legalized marijuana. Poor judgment for sure but why wouldn’t Sally just leave the room and report it to superiors? Letting the hotel know is an overreaction. If transferring would’ve worked and made sense if she requested it prior to this incident, then I’d do it. If not, I’d let her quit.

                  But like Alison, I’m probably biased because I think the decriminalization of marijuana use/possession is long overdue.
                  1. Merida Ann* April 12, 2017 at 12:38 pm

                     Because, at least the way Sally sees it, it’s an immediate issue that needs to be addressed now, not by the bosses when they get back. Potential issues she might have been considering: the smoke could cause breathing trouble for someone in an adjoining room, a dropped joint could cause a fire (I’m not saying if this is possible, since I don’t know, but it would certainly be going through my mind the same as if they were smoking cigarettes in the room), the whole company could be held culpable and she’d get in trouble for being complicit/not reporting at the very least, etc. Her first step should have been to tell her coworkers it was a bad idea, but if they didn’t stop after that, I can understand her reasoning for reporting to the hotel (not the police) so that someone with authority to tell them to stop could step in immediately.
                     1. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 12:41 pm

                        No. That’s not how a rational person would think, even if they were in a state where it isn’t legal.
                     2. Jesmlet* April 12, 2017 at 12:58 pm

                        Come on, that’s not what was going through her head. I’m not a mind reader, but she was not concerned about breathing problems or fire. This was moral outrage, she was appalled at her behavior and acted rashly to confront it.
                     3. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 1:01 pm

                        @Jesmlet–but since we have no idea what was going through her head, we also can’t say it was moral outrage. It could have been any number of impulses, some misguided, some less so, or some or all combined.
                     4. INFJ* April 12, 2017 at 1:32 pm

                        “stated she was angry and upset at having an illegal drug pushed at her and pressured to use it” sounds like moral outrage to me.
                     5. Ted Mosby* April 12, 2017 at 1:32 pm

                        @Jesmlet but you’re doing exactly what you’re accusing Sally of doing. You’re assigning all kinds of moral flaws to someone you know essentially nothing about. I wouldn’t fear these things but they’re not totally out of the realm of something a logical person might fear, especially the last one.
                     6. Aim* April 12, 2017 at 1:34 pm

                        Marijuana smoke dissipates rather quickly and is nothing like cigarette smoke. I don’t think it could cause harm.
                     7. Feline* April 12, 2017 at 1:42 pm

                        This:
                        >the whole company could be held culpable and she’d get in trouble for being complicit/not reporting at the very least, etc.

                        I have seen this happen and lead to firing with various things in the workplace. For instance, I know of a prominent company who fired supervisors who used a shared login to a program and demoted someone who was aware of it having happened even though they didn’t participate and even voiced it being a bad idea.

                        If Sally has watched people lose jobs over not tattling in the past the way I did, that may color her response here. I know it would mine, despite my not caring what my coworkers do on their own time.
                     8. Dot Warner* April 12, 2017 at 2:06 pm

                        @Aim: If you’ve never smoked marijuana or been around people who do (and it sounds like Sally has not), you wouldn’t know that.
                     9. Not A Morning Person* April 12, 2017 at 5:06 pm

                        There’s could also have been the fear of being arrested herself for an activity she wasn’t engaged in and found offensive. So she’s reporting to get on record that she didn’t participate and wasn’t involved. That could play into her reporting and her reaction, too.
                     10. Jules* April 12, 2017 at 5:26 pm

                         My employer (Very Big Company) has a strong policy of ‘if you see something wrong, speak up’. Hammered into us in the annual guidelines training, and I do mean hammered. Overall, our employees are ethical, but there’s been a couple of high-profile bribery / insider training cases in the decade I’ve been there. Internally, we don’t get specific names, but there is usually a short case study based on these for the next couple of years, and the person who knew but didn’t tell, who questioned but didn’t pass on concerns, always faces discipline.
                         This is coupled with four different avenues for reporting including an anonymous one – they’re serious about it.
                         I am certain that my company would fire the supervisor, PIP or fire the employee who partook, and see nothing wrong with Sally’s response. I don’t know if she’d get commended, but I am certain it would become a case study and they would recommend she leave and contact her manager immediately. I don’t *think* they would recommend she report to the hotel or police, but I bet our managers have guidance on what to do in this situation.
            2. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 11:43 am

               Well, the people who went through DARE as kids are presumably adults now who can read the news, be aware of current medical & professional opinions on the topic, and use common sense & critical thinking skills to evolve their beliefs. If Sally still thinks that offering someone a joint is the same as offering someone a needle, that’s Sally’s shortcoming. “I learned ridiculous stuff in school” is not an excuse.
               1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 11:46 am

                  That’s not really a fair judgment to make. There are parts of the country (and parts of states that have legalized marijuana) where a joint is seen as equivalent to a needle. I don’t agree with Sally or those folks, but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist or that their opinions are inherently invalid.

                  And when you layer on the fact that marijuana is illegal in that state (as well as being illegal everywhere under federal law), then I can understand how someone might react terribly. I personally think Sally overreacted at every level, but I don’t think her objection is presumptively invalid.
                  1. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 12:11 pm

                     Ignorance is not a viable defense in this scenario. When your ridiculous views cause real harm for others — Sally got her coworkers arrested for weed — “I didn’t know better” goes out the window.
                     1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:20 pm

                        Dude, it’s against the law. It doesn’t matter whether you’re ignorant about how serious marijuana is/isn’t—the law treats marijuana possession and possession with distribution as serious.

                        Sally’s reaction was inappropriate because it’s inappropriate to try to get your coworkers arrested, in general, when they’re not harming others. But whether she understands whether weed is “dangerous” or not is irrelevant to determining whether her reaction was overblown.
                     2. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 12:25 pm

                        @PCBH Ok, Dude, I’m responding specifically to defenses of Sally’s reactions based on the idea that she may have grown up ignorant about the true nature of weed. And I think that’s a BS defense and I think it is relevant to say so because I’ve seen that on this comment thread in several places.
                     3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:32 pm

                        I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t think it’s a b.s. defense. For what it’s worth, I fully agree with you substantively—marijuana is not super dangerous, is not equivalent to hard drugs, and should likely be legalized and well-regulated.

                        All that said, if someone grows up in region with a strong “law and order” ethos towards all drugs, then their reaction might be in line with prevailing norms in that area. We don’t really know what the norms are for Sally’s and OP’s part of the world. I think Sally likely overreacted regardless, because I don’t think it’s ok to try to get your coworkers arrested when the illegal activity they’re pursuing has a low risk of harm to others and is not inherently super dangerous/self-destructive (exception: law enforcement and some government jobs, where you risk termination for failing to report).

                        But it’s not reasonable to say that all people need to read up on all social issues before they’re allowed to have a reaction/opinion. This is like the noro letter.
                     4. Mary Dempster* April 12, 2017 at 12:38 pm

                        Marijuana is not only not super dangerous, it’s not dangerous at all, in the short term.

                        Drink too much, and you could end up in the hospital with alcohol poisoning – in one night. In hours, in fact. Smoke too much and you’ll go to sleep or stare at the fridge for a couple of hours.
                     5. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 12:44 pm

                        @PCBH I guess I am extremely wary of the “well it’s what I grew up believing” defense when what you believe can harm others, as it clearly did in this case. And also, I don’t think it’s even necessary to do ANY research about weed to figure out it’s not nearly as bad as other drugs — some common sense and adult critical thinking skills should help one come to that conclusion.
                     6. AD* April 12, 2017 at 12:52 pm

                        This is pretty harsh. I think the Princess makes a relevant (and thoughtful) point and vilifying Sally (however egregious her behavior was, and I think we can agree on that) isn’t helpful here.
                     7. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 1:07 pm

                        I agree that the “where I grew up” defense is not normally compelling. It might not be compelling here, either. I just think that local norms impact what sorts of activities we perceive to be more/less dangerous, regardless of whether there’s evidence to support our perception, and those perceptions may be reasonable in some circumstances.

                        In this case, regardless of Sally’s feelings about marijuana, I think it’s possible to have strong feelings about your manager bringing illicit drugs on a work trip in a state where it’s criminalized, and then asking you to partake. I don’t think what she did afterward was ok, but I think her initial reaction could be justified depending on the context (which we don’t really have as of yet).
                     8. Ted Mosby* April 12, 2017 at 1:48 pm

                        Lets be very clear. Sally’s views did not get anyone arrested. They were arrested for knowingly breaking a law. Sally didn’t even ask the police to be called.

                        I am 100% pro legalization. I smoke from time to time. I think its obscene to arrest adults for smoking pot. But I don’t understand why everyone is dismissing the fact that Sally’s supervisor asked to employees to do illegal things with him in a hotel room. If Sally telling the hotel got two people arrested, someone else may very well have smelled it, complained, and gotten Sally arrested if she had felt some social pressure from her boss to stay and socialize.

                        I also think if someone wrote in saying “my boss asked me to drink in his hotel room after hours” everyone would be jumping on how sketchy that is, but people are too up in arms about their views on legalization to even notice. Sally’s manager displayed such terrible judgement I really don’t feel bad for him.
               2. Leslie* April 12, 2017 at 11:59 am

                  I’m going to be totally honest. If I were in a state where it weren’t legal to possess marijuana, I’d be angry that I was put in a position to be arrested. Especially if we traveled in the same vehicle to get to this conference. All this regardless of my opinion on whether or not it should be legal. Sure, she didn’t have to say anything. Her reaction was slightly bizarre, but I sure wouldn’t want to ride back in the same vehicle. I’m all for the legalization of marijuana, but it isn’t legal in the state this occurred, so my opinion on that doesn’t matter. This manager put them all in a bad position. Had she not called the police, they still may have been called. Then Sally would’ve been in trouble too,
                  1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:20 pm

                     Same.
                     1. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 12:48 pm

                        The BS part of it is though that the ONLY way it became a potential issue of arrest is because Sally told the hotel. The likelihood of sitting in a hotel room and quietly doing a fairy harmless thing leading directly to an arrest is such a paranoid mindset. Even before pot was legal in many of the states around here, it would have been a Herculean effort in paranoid thinking to be worried you would be arrested for something that a) it’s unlikely people could discover, b) that had you just left the room, you would not be held responsible for. What I am seeing is people thinking Sally was worried she could be arrested, going to the hotel folk, them calling the police and arresting the manager and coworker, and Sally saying, “see!”
                     2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 1:11 pm

                        It honestly depends on your state/region. I’ve lived in places where it’s not in the least bit paranoid to think you’ll be arrested if someone finds you smoking pot—even in your own home—or that you’ll be in trouble if you’re affiliated or associated with someone who’s bringing/using pot. I don’t think what Sally did was ok, but to label someone’s perception as paranoid or unreasonable because we’ve lived in places where you’re unlikely to be arrested is not really a fair or representative benchmark for the thousands of other places in the country (or specific demographics even in “decriminalized” areas) where arrest is likely.
                     3. Ted Mosby* April 12, 2017 at 1:37 pm

                        @Anna how is it paranoid? It’s not that difficult for someone in close range to know you’re smoking. What if some little old lady had smelled it and told the hotel and Sally had been in the room.

                        The fact that the hotel knowing that people were smoking led to arrests in and of itself means Sally wouldn’t have been paranoid to think she could have gotten in serious trouble for just sitting socializing with her manager.
                     4. KellyK* April 12, 2017 at 1:42 pm

                        I don’t think it’s paranoid at all to think that doing something illegal in a semi-public place like a hotel could lead to arrest. Anyone who smelled the smoke could’ve talked to the front desk, which would’ve resulted in the police being called. Also, Leslie brought up the issue of traveling in the same vehicle. If you’re riding with someone who’s transporting an illegal drug, and they get pulled over, you could certainly be arrested too.
                     5. Ted Mosby* April 12, 2017 at 1:49 pm

                        @Kelly thank you! It’s clearly not that paranoid… since this is literally a story about it happening. I don’t understand the logic here at all.
                  2. mcr-red* April 12, 2017 at 12:29 pm

                     This 100 percent. Whether or not you agree with the law, you have a manager doing something illegal in front of your employees and encouraging your employees to do the same. I’m a little bit shocked at the blase attitude about that so far.

                     Embezzlement/fraud is also illegal. Would it have been OK for the manager to, I don’t know, use company funds to go to a concert and encourage the other two to do the same?
                     1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 12:50 pm

                        Come on, that’s totally different. There’s a clear moral issue associated with stealing that smoking weed doesn’t carry. It’s like Bend & Snap’s comment about jaywalking below – yes, it’s technically illegal, but this is one place where the law doesn’t provide a good moral guideline, because the crime isn’t unethical in and of itself.
                     2. blackcat* April 12, 2017 at 12:54 pm

                        No, but I’d expect Sally to report that to the company first, rather than an outside party.
                     3. mcr-red* April 12, 2017 at 1:04 pm

                        Difference between jaywalking and marijuana usage in terms of illegal is one can cause jail time and the other cannot. At least I’ve never heard of anyone sent to jail for jaywalking. Embezzlement/fraud are also jail time offenses.
                     4. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 1:29 pm

                        That’s still completely missing the point, which is that something being illegal doesn’t necessarily mean it’s morally wrong. It doesn’t matter if one is even more illegal than the other.
                     5. Sketchee* April 12, 2017 at 2:17 pm

                        Moral issues aside, there are consequences to drug use. We don’t really know her moral views. Even if Sally was only trying to avoid the consequences or associations of an illegal activity, that’s pretty valid.
                     6. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 2:30 pm

                        I agree that being concerned about involvement with illegal activities is valid whether that law has a moral component or not; I disagree with comparing smoking weed with embezzlement as mcr-red did in her comment. One is just illegal, while the other is both illegal and immoral – you can’t treat them as though the reactions should be equal.
                     7. neeko* April 12, 2017 at 4:26 pm

                        Jaywalking is illegal in some places too! Burn the witch!
                  3. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 12:29 pm

                     Me too
                  4. Miss Betty* April 12, 2017 at 12:45 pm

                     That’s exactly what I was thinking. Actually, I think it’s inevitable they’d be discovered – marijauna stink is so strong and so pervasive I find it hard to believe that no one at the hotel would’ve noticed and tried to figure out which room it was.
                     1. Anon for this* April 12, 2017 at 3:27 pm

                        It’s going to depend a lot on the hotel (higher end ones with thicker walls), but it’s really easy to smoke pot in a room and not have it noticed by anyone. It also dissipates pretty quickly. It’s not like cigarette smoke which clings to everything.
                  5. Dust Bunny* April 12, 2017 at 12:50 pm

                     Yeah, it’s not like you can’t smell pot. One of the other guests might just as well have called.

                     Side note, if this is a business trip and they all end up smelling like pot while on a work errand, that’s a problem for their employers.
                     1. KR* April 12, 2017 at 1:17 pm

                        Eh, I’ve found the odor doesn’t carry well or stick on clothes like cigarette smoke does.
                     2. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 1:36 pm

                        @KR – As someone for whom weed is a trigger for very serious asthma attacks, I have a very different experience.
                     3. Bigglesworth* April 12, 2017 at 1:44 pm

                        @KR – I’d actually disagree. Sure, I can smell second-hand smoke from cigarettes and it can be pretty strong, but I also worked in retail and food service in Colorado after legalization and there were people who would come in that reeked of pot. It also smells like a skunk to me, so I could usually make the assumption that unless someone went out and antagonized the wildlife and decided to share with everyone, they were smoking weed and decided to go shopping.
                     4. Ted Mosby* April 12, 2017 at 1:51 pm

                        @KR then you likely smoke or have a poor sense of smell. I can 100% tell when my boyfriend or roommate has smoked or even been in the room with someone smoking by their clothes and hair. It’s not unusual for it to trigger my asthma.
                     5. Newton* April 12, 2017 at 2:04 pm

                        @KR I used to work at a place where everyone stored their coats and bags in a shared closet. One dude would bring in weed a couple of times a week and keep it in his backpack. My coat and bag STUNK to high heaven after being in there for a day with his stuff.
                     6. sfigato* April 12, 2017 at 3:31 pm

                        @KR
                        I feel like this is something habitual pot smokers tell themselves, and it is not a true statement. Weed smells so strong. It is stronger and more pervasive than cigarettes or BO. Every morning my train reeks of weed because someone smokes before they get on. It never reeks of tobacco despite the many smokers on the train.
                  6. LVeen* April 12, 2017 at 3:02 pm

                     You can get arrested for traveling in the same vehicle as someone who has marijuana on them?
                     1. Annie Moose* April 12, 2017 at 3:59 pm

                        AFAIK it would depend on the circumstances, but yes, you absolutely could. Let’s say the actual owner of the pot didn’t confess it was theirs–the cops could very well arrest everyone in the car, and let the courts sort out whose it actually is. I think “constructive possession” is the relevant legal term here? I’m no expert.

                        (if someone had a baggie in their pocket or something, okay, it’s pretty obvious whose that is, but if it’s just in the car somewhere, then the cops have no way to tell whose it is)
                  7. sfigato* April 12, 2017 at 3:26 pm

                     Yeah. I think it is crazy that Sally went to the front desk and narced on them, but SMOKING pot in a hotel room in a state where it is illegal is d-u-m-b dumb. Weed smells. It will be obvious to anyone on your floor that you are doing an illegal drug. And If they traveled together, Sally’s in danger of getting in trouble because of her dumb pothead coworker. I think people are so casual about weed that they forget that you can actually get in trouble for smoking or having it. My friend was traveling in texas and spent the night in jail because they got pulled over and his friend had pot on him.
                     I 100% think weed should be legal, but it’s not, so you need to be discreet with your use, especially when you are smoking it, and especially when in public and traveling.

                     In a related story, a friend was the personal assistant to someone, and when that someone went abroad to a country where weed is not legal, they had my friend mail a big box of weed to their destination AND made her get the package at the destination, all without telling my friend what was in the package. She quit soon after.
                  8. miss_chevious* April 12, 2017 at 3:54 pm

                     I’d be more than angry, I’d be furious. I don’t care what people do in their personal lives, but I’m not interested in being put in a position in a hotel room or a vehicle where I can be arrested for the activity of a co-worker, and I certainly wouldn’t go along with it knowingly.

                     Would I have reported it to the hotel? No. Would I have left the conference early? No. But wouldn’t be associating with my colleagues any further than necessary while at the conference and I would be asking for a transfer upon my return. Regardless of your opinion on legalization, in this particular instance these coworkers put Sally at risk of criminal charges and that’s not acceptable.
                  9. Jules* April 12, 2017 at 4:58 pm

                     Same.
                     I’m pro-legalization, and if I were a co-worker, I might talk to Sally about the racial problems with the War On Drugs, but:

                     Her supervisor asked her to commit a crime.

                     I would not have talked to the hotel or left the conference, but I’d have been really angry about it, and I would have made sure that our employer knew about it, immediately and also later, with the pics. I would have asked for a transfer, because after getting him in trouble in any way, working for that supervisor would have been difficult.
               3. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 12:04 pm

                  I don’t know many people who are that aware of what they don’t know. Quite frankly, I would expect to be able to trust what my school taught me, and it really wouldn’t occur to me to do in-depth research on everything I learned there just in case it wasn’t.

                  And with all the bias in the news now, two-thirds of it is lies or exaggerations. I wouldn’t trust it anymore than a tabloid telling me aliens are coming.
                  1. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 12:12 pm

                     You think that “weed is actually not that bad” deserves the same amount of scrutiny as “aliens are coming?”
                     1. Snowglobe* April 12, 2017 at 12:44 pm

                        If you do not plan to ever smoke weed, and if, as far as you know, none of your friends or family smoke weed, then why would what you learned in middle school about weed require any scrutiny?
                     2. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 12:50 pm

                        Because there are a lot of things you learned in middle school that require scrutiny, including, but not limited to, American history.
                     3. Ted Mosby* April 12, 2017 at 1:54 pm

                        “Weed is not actually that bad” isn’t this intrinsically common sense thing. Smoking cigarettes is absolutely terrible for you. Very little research has been done on what smoking does long term. If I was taught in school that weed was terrible and knew that medical research backed up that cigarettes are terrible I wouldn’t just one day wake up and assume weed was great.

                        FWIW I think weed should be legal and cigarettes should be illegal; this isn’t about my vendetta against pot. I just think it’s silly to assume things you know are common sense.
                  2. Allison* April 12, 2017 at 1:05 pm

                     “I don’t know many people who are that aware of what they don’t know. Quite frankly, I would expect to be able to trust what my school taught me, and it really wouldn’t occur to me to do in-depth research on everything I learned there just in case it wasn’t.”

                     Very true. A little skepticism is healthy, and being open to new information is good (instead of going “nuh-UH, teacher told me ____!”) but I can’t fault people for believing the stuff they learned in school. If you disregarded everything as a lie, you’d do pretty poorly on tests, and if you took the time to verify everything covered in class, you wouldn’t have much time for anything else.
               4. Stranger than fiction* April 12, 2017 at 3:56 pm

                  Sally and Melanie from yesterday would probably make great friends.
            3. Amber T* April 12, 2017 at 11:47 am

               I was a kid who went through DARE and your description is super accurate. We learned about all sorts of drugs (basically, ALL DRUGS ARE BAD DON’T DO THEM) but there was a huge emphasis on weed and how it’s awful and it’ll kill you and don’t do it. I’m guessing because they believed it’s more readily/easily available than the harder stuff, so we’d be faced with it more? What’s sad is that my hometown is involved with that suburbia trend where bored teenagers are overdosing on the harder stuff (not weed). I’ve lost at least six classmates due to overdosing or DUI.

               The manager made a dumb call – I equate it to asking your underlings to come back to your room and have a drink. It’s just a bad idea. But whoa Sally overreacted here. I was offered a joint by a new acquaintance over the weekend, and when I said no thanks, they just passed it on. (Funnily enough, DARE also made it seem that when someone offered me something I didn’t want to do, they’d be super aggressive and pressure me into it. Maybe I’m fortunate, but aside from a few surprised “you don’t drink?” in college (I do, I just don’t like beer), every time I’ve been offered and declined, it’s never been a big deal.)
               1. Allie* April 12, 2017 at 11:48 am

                  The funny thing is, studies show DARE kids are actually more likely to use drugs and their over false equivalence may have something to do with it.
                  1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 11:55 am

                     Yes. DARE is a terrible program, and empirical evidence indicates that it has no effect on preventing drug use and in many cases results in participants having a higher likelihood of recreational drug use.
                  2. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 12:51 pm

                     Yeah, I’d imagine that if you’re taught all drugs are equally bad, you probably figure that once you’ve tried one, you might as well try ’em all.
                     1. Starbuck* April 12, 2017 at 3:19 pm

                        Plus, if you happen to start with weed and realize is fun and pretty much harmless, and that the potential for danger had been vastly oversold, you might assume that’s also the case for much harder, more dangerous drugs, and end up making bad choices. If weed really is a “gateway” drug, I think it only functions that way because of how much misinformation is influencing people’s decisions.

                        I was fortunate enough to get a much more tempered education in health class re: illegal drugs, where we compared information like potential for addiction, annual OD deaths, disease/HIV transmission, etc… so when I tried weed and found that I enjoyed it, I wasn’t tempted to move on to something harder to have more fun.
               2. Gaia* April 12, 2017 at 11:54 am

                  Whenever someone talks about DARE and their ridiculous “education” about drugs I am reminded of the scene in Mean Girls where the Phys Ed teacher is going over sex ed and telling the kids not to have sex because “you will get chlamydia. And die”
                  1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 11:56 am

                     Gaia, that was literally my health class in high school. “Don’t drink, or you’ll die.” “Don’t smoke weed because it’s a gateway to heroin, and you’ll die.” “If you engage in recreational drinking, you’ll get pregnant and functionally die.”

                     It’s idiotic.
                     1. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 12:53 pm

                        In a psychology class I took in college, the professor talked about how we discuss drugs and their effects with children and young adults. He said something that really stuck with me. He said what probably often happens is someone tries weed, finds out it isn’t as life ending or terrible as it was portrayed, and then starts to question the validity of what they were told about other drugs. His argument was for weed being a gateway drug in that sense, not that you would eventually get bored with the effect of weed or once you used weed you’d be more “okay” with other drugs.
                     2. General Ginger* April 12, 2017 at 1:30 pm

                        PCBH, that was my health class in high school, too. Don’t drink, you’ll die. Don’t smoke weed, because once you do, you’ll do all the other drugs, and get a disease from a shared needle, and OD, and die. Don’t have sex, because you’ll get a disease, and die, get pregnant, and might as well die.
                     3. Mallory Janis Ian* April 12, 2017 at 1:48 pm

                        Oh, I was so mad at my kids’ school after the drugs/drinking chapter in health class! They came home swearing up and down that anyone who drinks any alcoholic beverage at all is an alcoholic, and saying that I was an alcoholic for drinking wine with my dinner.
                     4. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)* April 12, 2017 at 4:44 pm

                        @Anna, the ‘gateway drug’ thing is really interesting — I remember talking about this in high school debate. Basically, almost everyone who tries/uses ‘harder’ drugs uses weed first, because it’s easier to get, seen as less harmful than other drugs, etc. So people use the statistic that like 99% of e.g. heroin/meth users used marijuana first to say “See? Gateway drug!” Whereas if you look at it from the other direction, only like 2-3% of people who use pot ever go on to use anything else.
               3. Jesmlet* April 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm

                  Plus that whole ‘gateway drug’ fallacy. Kids should not do drugs of any kind and there are studies that show lasting effects if you start younger. With adults, weed is much less dangerous than tobacco. And as an adult, pretty much no one will give a crap if you say ‘no thanks’ to what they’re offering unless you’re in an industry where it runs rampant. DARE was worse than useless.
               4. TootsNYC* April 12, 2017 at 12:29 pm

                  ” I equate it to asking your underlings to come back to your room and have a drink. It’s just a bad idea.”

                  I actually think it’s worse. Sure, sure, lots of people think marijuana shouldn’t be illegal.

                  But it is. Full stop.

                  And so this is horrible judgment. If you want to break the law because you know better, have at it. But do not involve any other person. Just don’t.
                  1. Amber T* April 12, 2017 at 12:35 pm

                     Agreed. For what it’s worth, I meant if I was at a conference with my boss and colleague, and my boss invited me back to smoke a joint or for a drink, my reaction would be the same – an awkward “uh… no thanks? ” then back to my room for a netflix session.
                  2. Managed Chaos* April 12, 2017 at 1:04 pm

                     Absolutely. And this is why I feel zero sympathy for the two who are now in legal trouble. Don’t want legal trouble? Don’t break the law.
               5. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 12:53 pm

                  FWIW I actually don’t think having a drink in your room with an employee is all that egregious either. I can maybe see that it’s a liiiiittle weird to invite them to your room, but a drink with an employee isn’t all that unusual or bad in and of itself – I don’t think anyone would bat an eye if they’d grabbed a drink at the hotel bar.
                  1. Amber T* April 12, 2017 at 1:03 pm

                     Yeah it’s the whole “inviting your underling to your room for whatever reason” that weirds me out, not the drink or the smoke. I’ve had a drink at bars and other venues with people I work with and that’s completely normal to me. But “come back to my room” puts the idea of “we’re doing something we shouldn’t be doing” in my head, which isn’t necessarily true, just a reaction.

                     Like – “why have a drink in your room when we can just grab one at the bar?” Or “why have a joint in your room when we can smoke…” oh wait. There’s the problem. *insert eyeroll emoji*
                     1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:05 pm

                        I’ve had beers on somebody’s patio while traveling for academic conferences pretty frequently. Getting all your drinks out gets wicked expensive, and a sixer of good beer is about $10 most places. Not everybody’s on a per diem or expense account.
                     2. TootsNYC* April 12, 2017 at 4:16 pm

                        Well, bars can be loud (if you’re in a certain state, it might be smoky too). And you can be overheard, especially at a conference.

                        So inviting all of your colleagues back for a drink or a conversation wouldn’t bother me so much, personally, depending on the proximity to bedtime and the way it was handled.

                        It’s the “this is illegal” aspect that would royally piss me off.

                        I would have stayed at the conference, and I probably wouldn’t have gone to the front desk (though if I were pissed off enough as how they acted about it–if they had actually pressured me and not just offered–I might have, on the idea that the stink would hang around).

                        But I’d be mad.

                        Though, I do think our OP should transfer Sally if it is at all possible.
               6. Rebecca in Dallas* April 12, 2017 at 3:27 pm

                  Yes, they always made it seem like older kids would “peer pressure” us to smoke a joint! No, most of the time nobody wants to share their stash haha.
               7. Stranger than fiction* April 12, 2017 at 4:03 pm

                  Seriously, most people want to hoard their drugs.
               8. Hrovitnir* April 12, 2017 at 5:17 pm

                  Yes, I still remember the DARE programme as a child, and as someone brought up around marijuana the fact they were telling me things I knew were untrue made me distrust what they were saying about other drugs.

                  I’ve never been a fan of scare tactics anyway. You should see the ridiculous videos they showed us about meth use in the Navy (there’s a big problem with “P” in NZ because it’s hard to import the more difficult to make drugs) – sure, meth is awful, but if you portray everything at its worst possible extreme people just… don’t believe you. There are plenty of facts about both the incredibly extended withdrawal period and long term effects to be off putting without just filling a Powerpoint with pictures of people with their teeth falling out.
            4. Sans* April 12, 2017 at 12:03 pm

               Even if my boss and co-worker were taking LSD I wouldn’t have freaked the way Sally did. At the most, I would have declined and left the room. And then talk to someone back in the office when I got home (and I wouldn’t have left the conference early). If they were shooting heroin, yes, I would be freaked out. But I STILL would have stayed at the conference. I would have definitely spoken to someone at the office when I got back – or even called them while I was still at the conference. But taking a bus home? Calling the police? No matter how she feels about weed, she waaay overreacted.
               1. Tuxedo Cat* April 12, 2017 at 2:18 pm

                  That’s what I find strange. Unless there really is more to the story, I don’t see why she couldn’t have stayed for the conference. Even if they traveled together in a car and she was worried about the manager getting caught with weed, she still could’ve taken the bus after the conference ended.
               2. PlainJane* April 12, 2017 at 4:17 pm

                  Bingo. She sounds like an immature drama llama with an overdeveloped obsession with rule-following. I think the 2 smokers showed horrible judgment, and I wouldn’t have much sympathy for them if they were fired. But to report co-workers for something that’s generally harmless when you know (or should know) that they could be arrested? That’s a really crappy thing to do.
            5. Honeybee* April 12, 2017 at 12:52 pm

               One of the funniest things I found out about DARE as an adult is that the research shows that DARE actually causes a slight increase in drug use, because it introduces adolescents to the concept of drugs they would never have heard of if they hadn’t taken DARE BUT the silly scare tactics DARE uses are so over the top that they kids were not discouraged from trying them.
            6. yasmara* April 12, 2017 at 1:25 pm

               My kid just went through DARE this year!
               1. yasmara* April 12, 2017 at 1:26 pm

                  I believe the biggest drug problem facing our country is prescription narcotics leading to heroin addiction, but of course prescription drugs are “good,” right? Ugh, I’m still annoyed that DARE is still being taught in (some) schools.
                  1. Hrovitnir* April 12, 2017 at 5:20 pm

                     Well actually, there is plenty of pushback against prescription drugs, to the point where people are denied medication they need – particularly when they fit a bias the doctor has. Which has lead to a number of people with chronic pain conditions moving onto buying black market prescription drugs. Or, y’know, just having to go without pain relief when that was the only thing that allowed them to leave the house or care for themselves at all.

                     (This is a big topic so I’ll leave it there, but I wanted to point this out because the issue is really, really complicated.)
         3. Jessesgirl72* April 12, 2017 at 11:27 am

            Ridiculous or not (It is) you can hardly blame Sally for believing an idea that is still being pushed by the school systems, and has been pushed my the medical association right on down for over 30 years, until a few years ago. And even then, some doctors still say it’s exactly the same. (So says the anti-legalization crap certain of my FB friends post)

            Her reaction was totally over the top. However, I’d fire the manager too. The lack of judgement in offering a joint to a junior in a place where it’s still illegal? That’s an astounding lack of judgement! And probably there are rules about illegal drugs on property or while representing the company in the employee handbook. Sally is obviously a rule follower, and is gobsmacked that even company policy is being flouted. (If it’s not in the handbook, I bet she thinks it is.)
            1. Elizabeth H.* April 12, 2017 at 11:36 am

               I have mixed feelings about this. It is legal in so many places and a lot of people feel like it should be legal everywhere. I feel it’s more like offering someone a glass of wine. I don’t smoke but I am completely horrified by Sally’s reaction. I can’t imagine a universe in which I would attempt to get someone I worked with arrested.
               1. Jessie the First (or second)* April 12, 2017 at 11:43 am

                  It isn’t legal in so many places – it is legal in 8 states. However, it is still illegal at the federal level – and our new Attorney General has stated he wants to up enforcement.
               2. Jessesgirl72* April 12, 2017 at 11:44 am

                  Well, and while I would have fired the manager at the time, I’d be reluctant to do so now that Sally is demanding it.

                  And as the OP, I wouldn’t take the risk of firing Sally and being accused of firing a whistleblower… (Sally had the coworkers arrested for smoking pot, she’d definitely file this lawsuit!)

                  So I’d let her transfer, if I could, but otherwise not look the gift horse in the mouth, and let her quit.
                  1. Jessie the First (or second)* April 12, 2017 at 11:51 am

                     Oh, I wouldn’t fire the manager based on Sally’s demand. She is being completely unreasonable. I’d be fine if she quit, or if she could transfer without it being a big special thing done just for her (as Allison said, if transferring is something that happens at that org, if Sally would be good at the new job, then great. Otherwise, bye Felicia.)
               3. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 11:51 am

                  But it was illegal there and he was on a work trip. I think that’s the kicker for me – he was on a work trip and, worse, Sally was his subordinate.
                  I don’t have a problem with pot generally – I don’t like the smell but if you want to smoke away from me whatever – but I would be *extremely* uncomfortable if my manager pulled out a joint and offered it to me.
                  Versus if my brother or friends offered it to me, I would just say, nope, not my thing and not think twice.
                  1. New hiring manager* April 12, 2017 at 12:17 pm

                     This. He broke the law on a work trip, and invited a subordinate to also break the law with him.

                     Whether or not it’s a silly law, and despite Sally’s overreaction, that would be a firing offense for me.
                     1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:20 pm

                        Sure, but can we separate that from whether or not Sally is a liability moving forward?
                     2. Jessesgirl72* April 12, 2017 at 1:33 pm

                        In the moment, it could have been separated. Now it can’t be.
                  2. Jesmlet* April 12, 2017 at 12:29 pm

                     What’s holding me up is the difference between doing something illegal and doing something wrong, and I just don’t think what the manager did was wrong enough to warrant being fired. Now on to Sally, transfer her if it seems easy and you would’ve done it had she requested this prior, and in a perfect world you could make it a position where she’d never have to be offsite with coworkers. If not simple to execute, let her quit.
                     1. Jesmlet* April 12, 2017 at 12:30 pm

                        Will say, libertarian = very biased here
                     2. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 12:48 pm

                        I think that the smoking itself is illegal, but not wrong. (Therefore, a report that an employee was smoking in their own house != fireable)

                        However, doing anything illegal at a work function is wrong (and therefore possibly fireable).
                     3. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 12:56 pm

                        Yeah, I’m torn because I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with the scenario if there were no laws at play here, but the manager involving an employee with an illegal act is sketchy, stupid as that law may be. That’s really the part I’d focus in on, not whether weed itself is immoral.
                     4. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 12:59 pm

                        Yeah, I think I’m with Scion on what’s illegal vs. what’s wrong here, with an added dose of wrong if they drove with pot and Sally (sounds like a drug term) in the car to the conference.
                     5. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 1:08 pm

                        I said this downthread, but I think I would feel the same way being offered pot in a hotel room as I would being asked out on a date or offered sex – socially, no big. In the work place, big deal. By a manager, huge deal!
                     6. Electric Hedgehog* April 12, 2017 at 1:13 pm

                        Eh, I don’t think that smoking weed is wrong. But, I do think that the lack of judgment he exhibited in trying to get a junior employee to engage in illegal behavior with him, especially since he didn’t know her well enough to gauge her reaction, warrants at least a very serious conversation, with possible demotion or termination.
                     7. Jessesgirl72* April 12, 2017 at 1:36 pm

                        I don’t think smoking pot is morally wrong. I do think that offering it to a junior while on a work trip is so very stupid that it warrants termination.

                        People are fired every day for mistakes that don’t make them a bad person, but warrant termination. Things that don’t even have the extra kicker of being illegal.
                     8. Jesmlet* April 12, 2017 at 2:39 pm

                        To reiterate, didn’t say it wasn’t wrong, just making a (personal) value judgment here and saying I don’t think it’s wrong enough to cause the manager to be fired.
               4. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 11:59 am

                  I agree that Sally over-reacted, but I have to push back on the “legal in so many places” — no. It is illegal in the United of America, full stop. Some states have decided to stop using state/local law enforcement to enforce these laws, but federal law remains in force in all 50 states.

                  This is especially important given that the Current Management is indicating it intends to reverse Obama’s policy of winking at state “legalizations” by directing federal law enforcement resources elsewhere.
               5. paul* April 12, 2017 at 12:31 pm

                  8 states of 50 isn’t even close to a majority. Or a significant minority.
                  1. Starbuck* April 12, 2017 at 3:30 pm

                     Sure, 8 out of 50 states is only 16% of the states in this country… but it’s 20% of the population with legal recreational use (63 million) and a much more impressive 59% of the population (around 190 million!) if you include states with medical access. That’s a pretty significant majority.
                     1. Elizabeth H.* April 12, 2017 at 4:33 pm

                        Yeah this is more what I meant. I think 20% population wise is significant. If you live somewhere it is legal or decriminalized or where there is widespread medical access there is a huge difference in attitude and how it seems on the ground.
               6. Newton* April 12, 2017 at 12:32 pm

                  It being illegal, I bet Sally sees it more like offering a teenager a glass of wine. The teenager is most likely not going to have an adverse reaction or get hooked and then start drinking a fifth of whiskey every night, but it is still illegal. She still definitely overreacted, but I could see how she would equate someone offering her a joint to someone offering a kid beer and feeling like she needed to intervene and make that behavior stop.
                  1. Elemeno P.* April 12, 2017 at 12:48 pm

                     The way she reacted, it’s more like seeing someone fill a baby bottle with wine. A teenager being supervised with one glass of wine is generally not going to set off the DANGER alarm like that.
                  2. General Ginger* April 12, 2017 at 1:34 pm

                     Honestly, having grown up in a “kids can have a sip and older kids can have a glass of wine” culture, I am still completely mystified by the “offering a teenager a glass of wine” being verboten here.
                     1. Mallory Janis Ian* April 12, 2017 at 3:34 pm

                        Teenagers in my family were allowed to have a glass of wine at family dinners, and my daughter is now allowed to have one glass of wine with her dad and me if we’re having some at home. However, when my daughter and I went to a Halloween party at the home of one of our women’s group members, I didn’t allow my daughter to have any of the spiked punch at her house, even though the host was okay with it, because (1) she is underage, and I don’t want anyone besides myself to assume responsibility for that, and (2) the real deciding factor: I’m a university employee, my daughter was a university student, and the host was a university professor. Too many work/student/professor lines to cross there, so I just made her drink coke.
               7. TootsNYC* April 12, 2017 at 4:17 pm

                  But this is a manager. Is this person going to look at other rules and say, “I don’t think it should be legal”?

                  I get that our OP smokes too, but this manager broke a law on a company trip–it doesn’t really matter that it was “after hours.” If he’s covered by the company’s liability insurance during the whole trip, then he’s “on duty” the whole trip.
            2. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 11:44 am

               Said this above and I’ll say it here:

               Sally is an adult who can be aware of current medical & professional opinions on the topic, and use common sense & critical thinking skills to evolve their beliefs. If Sally still thinks that offering someone a joint is the same as offering someone a needle, that’s Sally’s shortcoming. “I learned ridiculous stuff in school” is not an excuse.
               1. Whats In A Name* April 12, 2017 at 1:30 pm

                  I feel like I missed something in the original post, or maybe OP commented somewhere and I missed it. Did Sally actually say “I called the cops because I learned in school that weed is bad.”?

                  Or are you just playing mind reader?
               2. CheeryO* April 12, 2017 at 2:07 pm

                  I agree, FWIW. I was a DARE kid who also grew up incredibly sheltered, and I freaked the hell out when I encountered pot at my first college parties. It didn’t take me long to realize that it wasn’t exactly the evil gateway drug that it had been presented as in school.
            3. The Final Pam* April 12, 2017 at 11:47 am

               I’d probably reprimand the manager but maybe not fire them – it’s a lack of judgment, but I personally don’t think it’s a fireable offense, but that said I’m also pro-legalization so that could be.
            4. Agnodike* April 12, 2017 at 11:59 am

               No, I think it’s probably reasonable to expect adult citizens to evaluate the evidence and arguments around socially-controversial issues and make a reasoned judgment based on those facts. I’m not saying Sally would necessarily conclude that pot is totally fine if she did so (many reasonable people don’t!) but one would hope she would arrive at a more nuanced response than “CALL THE POLICE AND FLEE!”
               1. KR* April 12, 2017 at 1:23 pm

                  This
               2. Anonymous 40* April 12, 2017 at 1:51 pm

                  Really? Why would you think that? I don’t see much in the world these days that supports that idea.
                  1. Agnodike* April 12, 2017 at 2:54 pm

                     I’m sure you’re not arguing that it’s unreasonable to expect adult citizens to carefully consider and evaluate important social issues because many fail to do so.
                     1. Anonymous 40* April 12, 2017 at 3:19 pm

                        I suppose actually answering the question would have been too much trouble.
                     2. Agnodike* April 12, 2017 at 3:48 pm

                        Oh, was it a question? It sounded like a disingenuous argument. The answer is that it’s a foundational principle of democracy and I’m committed to living in a democratic society. Hope that helps.
                     3. Anonymous 40* April 12, 2017 at 4:33 pm

                        Good lord, what is with this comment section today? If you’d actually read what I said instead of jumping at the chance for cheap snark, you might have realized I wasn’t disagreeing with you or making any sort of “argument” at all. I was commenting on how sadly common it is for people not to think critically and be reasonable when that expectation *should be* completely reasonable.
                     4. Anonymous 40* April 12, 2017 at 4:34 pm

                        But thanks for proving my point!
               3. msmorlowe* April 12, 2017 at 4:05 pm

                  We don’t know for certain that that was the chain of events. The letter is a little ambiguous in that way: from my reading, I thought that Sally reported her supervisor and coworker to the hotel management, who then verified what was happening, who then called the police (not Sally), at which point her coworkers were arrested–and it was after this that Sally took a Greyhound back, i.e. rather than continue at the conference and possibly have to explain to people “Oh yes, on my own now after my coworkers were arrested last night for doing drugs” and possibly also upset by the whole affair, Sally went home.

                  I really think the supervisor and coworker should get AT LEAST serious side-eye for their total lack of judgement here, and yes, absolutely agree that Sally should get that transfer if at all possible–I can’t see these people continuing to work well together! I also think that it’s perfectly understandable of Sally to ditch the conference at that stage but that she should have notified her manager beforehand of what was happening and why she was leaving.
                  1. Former Employee* April 12, 2017 at 4:49 pm

                     Why would she need to leave the conference? It’s not as if everyone there was smoking/pressuring her to smoke. She should have said “No, thanks.” and gone back to her own room. If she was concerned that there might be illegal drugs in the (presumably) shared vehicle, she could have found another way home after the conference was over.
            5. Mike C.* April 12, 2017 at 2:04 pm

               I can blame her for not using the critical thinking skills that adults generally possess.
               1. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 2:32 pm

                  Thank. You. We don’t have to give Sally leeway for being completely misinformed about weed, she’s a frickin’ adult.
         4. blackcat* April 12, 2017 at 11:46 am

            I totally agree. I mean, if I encountered my supervisor shooting up heroin on a work trip and he offered me some, I would be out of there so fast. But I wouldn’t (1) notify the hotel, (2) leave the conference or (3) call the cops (I know that wasn’t Sally, but it was a possible outcome if #1).

            I’d report the incident upon getting back from the trip, and say “This was really inappropriate and should be dealt with.” Sally way overreacted here.
      2. Woosicle* April 12, 2017 at 11:17 am

         This is my thought, Sally is probably very much against any kind of drug use. My sister is against all drugs as well but I sincerely doubt she would have such an extreme reaction if she were in a similar situation. They are all adults and could have handled this as adults. I understand reporting this kind of behavior to a supervisor or a higher up at the company, especially since Sally was obviously uncomfortable and upset by what happened – but to tell the hotel and get law enforcement involved??? Sally’s reaction was pretty immature (IMO).
      3. LadyCop* April 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm

         Just because she’s against illegal drugs, does not mean she’s stupid.
         1. brighidg* April 12, 2017 at 4:32 pm

            that’s right.

            The rest of her actions prove she’s stupid.
   2. Juliecatharine* April 12, 2017 at 11:09 am

      I came here to say the same thing. She’s trouble waiting to happen and she will need to be treated with kid gloves going forward. Nobody is going to want anything to do with her when they hear what she did. If she’s willing to leave and they’re covered from an HR perspective she should be given a wide berth and allowed to go.
      1. JanetInSC* April 12, 2017 at 1:47 pm

         Exactly…she’s poison in the eyes of all her co-workers.
   3. LadyCop* April 12, 2017 at 12:46 pm

      Right…because hundreds of dollars of damage to hotel property is no big deal.

      Hypocrites.
      1. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 12:56 pm

         Uh. What?
         1. KR* April 12, 2017 at 1:26 pm

            I’m with you. Where is “hundreds of dollars worth of damage” coming from? I’m guessing she means smoke damage but marijuana smoke doesn’t cling the same way cigarette smoke does (and the manager may have booked a smoking room, who knows).
            1. SimonTheGreyWarden* April 12, 2017 at 2:27 pm

               It does if you are sensitive to it.
            2. Aveline* April 12, 2017 at 5:02 pm

               Actually, I have a friend at a major research institution who did a scientific study on this. Marijuana smoke – any type of smoke that comes from – does linger a lot longer than people realize.

               I don’t know why you are so invested in minimizing the impact of the marijuana smoke, but it is not minimal to a lot of people nor does it just dissipate when the smoker is finished.

               All smoke – even smoke from a campfire – lingers.

               If you don’t believe me, do a google search on “remove marijuana smoke” smell. There is a lot of information out there.
         2. CMart* April 12, 2017 at 1:27 pm

            I’m not LadyCop, but pot REEKS, and hotels forbid smoking anything in most rooms for a reason. It gets into the linens, walls, furniture, etc… They usually charge a several hundred dollar cleaning fee if you’re caught smoking. Scent damage, I suppose.
      2. green state resident* April 12, 2017 at 1:26 pm

         I know plenty of hypocritical cops who use drugs and do illegal things, but have no problem arresting others for same. It’s definitely a ymmv on cop cred.
         1. brighidg* April 12, 2017 at 4:33 pm

            My dad used to love grabbing the illegal fireworks on patrol so we could add them to our stash for the 4th of July holiday.
      3. lokilaufeysanon* April 12, 2017 at 1:50 pm

         The hotel can charge for damages. And as noted, there are plenty of cops who have done marijuana, despite what their, you know, JOB is. Hell, there are cops that have dealt drugs themselves from the drugs they stole from the evidence locker. There are cops that worked alongside known gang members when they were off duty. There have been cops who have planted evidence and perjured themselves. There have been cops who ROBBED A BANK. And that was all just the LAPD Rampart Division! It cost the city upwards of $125 million in civil suits and overturned over 100 convictions.

         Hypocrites.
      4. Mike C.* April 12, 2017 at 2:06 pm

         You seriously can’t tell the difference between a civil and a criminal matter?
         1. brighidg* April 12, 2017 at 4:34 pm

            Probably sad no one got their skull cracked over it.
   4. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 12:49 pm

      I think once we start down the list of which illegal drugs you report and which you blow off (cocaine–in or out? how about adderall?) it’s far down the road of assuming everyone has the exact same boundaries. Which as this letter demonstrates is not true.
   5. NEW YEAR, NEW ME* April 12, 2017 at 2:42 pm

      I wonder if Sally is afraid of retaliation.
   6. I Herd the Cats* April 12, 2017 at 4:18 pm

      Actually, to use your example…. I just imagined I’d been invited back to someone’s hotel room to shoot up. I’d tell my manager when I got back from the conference, and that would be it. (I have, in fact, been invited in a business situation to share some cocaine — which I politely declined. ) I think Sally’s ridiculous, but then again, these things might happen when you invite someone you clearly don’t know very well to share your illicit substances.
2. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 11:06 am

   I think the manager should be seriously reprimanded or fired for doing something illegal on a work trip. It shows very poor judgment.

   (for the record, I’m pro-legalization, but we don’t really get to pick which laws we want to abide by)
   1. Justme* April 12, 2017 at 11:07 am

      Agree.
   2. KMS* April 12, 2017 at 11:08 am

      I agree, and I think the difficult issue here is that it was her team lead that offered — not a peer, which I think, leads to some additional pressure.
      1. Aurion* April 12, 2017 at 11:35 am

         Yeah, this. It was Sally’s boss that was asking her about weed. I’m surprised Alison didn’t address that when she’s so on-point with the implicit power differential.
         1. ThursdaysGeek* April 12, 2017 at 4:33 pm

            Yeah. I think Alison is blinded a bit by her stance on pot, and overlooking the power differential issue.

            It doesn’t matter what the boss was offering, legal or not – there is pressure there simply because it is coming from the boss. And that pressure matters. Add in something that is locally illegal, to someone who sees things very right and wrong, add in questions about if the pot was in the vehicle coming and not wanting to take that vehicle going back, and very likely adding in some underlying and existing issues, and you get someone who acts very unprofessionally, in their reaction to an very unprofessional act by a superior. There are no heroes in the story.
      2. LKW* April 12, 2017 at 12:19 pm

         Oh come on. If I go out to work and my boss offers to buy a round of drinks and I don’t want a drink – do I run away? Do I suck it up and drink anyway? No. I do not. Because I am an adult who can make her own choices. If she is old enough to be in the working world and still that immature… sheesh.

         Do you really think the manager was like “noooo – you have to smoke the joint!” – I doubt it.
         1. NotAnotherManager!* April 12, 2017 at 12:38 pm

            I think a lot of people would do the same, but there are also people who ARE uncomfortable with being offered a drink by a supervisor and wondering if declining will reflect poorly on them, even if no big deal is made out of it at the time. Add in that pot use is illegal in OP’s location, and that’s just really poor judgment on the part of the manager. When you are in a position of power, the burden of good behavior is on you, and that this was a work trip and not a social/personal outing raises the bar.

            I think Sally overreacted in a big way, but inviting subordinates to participate in an illegal activity can’t go without reprimand. And I say that from the perspective of finding criminalization of marijuana use utterly ridiculous.
         2. Jesmlet* April 12, 2017 at 12:40 pm

            This.

            Boss: “Let’s do shots!”
            Me: “Not for me, thanks. I’m taking it easy tonight.” (interchangeable with many possible excuses)
            Boss: “Okay” *orders shots for everyone else*

            Done.
         3. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 12:53 pm

            The manager clearly has multifacetedly horrible personal judgment, so I don’t think we can assume he obviously didn’t apply any pressure.

            It’s entirely possible there’s a whole background of incidents of dreadful judgment and boundary crossing and pressure, and that this was the joint that broke the camel’s back to result in a low-key variation on the rage quit. While not excusing the offended employee’s extremes, it would go some way to explaining them.
            1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 12:58 pm

               Whoa, hey now. That’s a little far. If you’re someone who smokes a lot in social situations, it really might not come across any differently for you to offer your employee some the same as you would offer them a drink if you were having one when they came to your room. “Multifaceted horrible personal judgment” seems really strong.
         4. AD* April 12, 2017 at 12:59 pm

            That’s immaterial. As Amy said, it’s illegal and parsing that fact (which we can’t ignore regardless of how we feel about legalization) with the drinking metaphor is problematic. They’re not the same thing.
            1. Whats In A Name* April 12, 2017 at 1:34 pm

               I agree here. Offering me a glass of wine at age 25? Fine. I can say no and it’s a legal activity if I say yes. Offering me a hit off a joint? I can still so no, but now you are asking me to partake in an illegal activity. I don’t think that’s ok, even if it were a peer, especially at a work event.
   3. Countess Boochie Flagrante* April 12, 2017 at 11:09 am

      Yeah, this is my ultimate position too. Pro-legalization, and I’m definitely side-eying Sally for being a drama llama, but the manager was a blithering idiot in this case. No one looks good.
      1. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 11:13 am

         The leaving in the middle of the night on the Greyhound was the part that tipped her reaction over the line for me.
         1. AMG* April 12, 2017 at 11:21 am

            That was just straight-up drama and irrational. It goes back to Sally not looking at this from a balanced, mature place.
            1. Melissophoebea* April 12, 2017 at 11:28 am

               Yeah. Getting on a Greyhound in general is something I would only consider if I felt legitimately threatened by something, but in the middle of the night? Over petty drug use? Even if I had called the police – which I wouldn’t have – that seems extreme.
               1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 11:51 am

                  And for crying out loud, if you’re flipping out this hard over petty drug use, a goddamn Greyhound bus is the last place on Earth you’d EVER want to be.
                  1. Lynxa* April 12, 2017 at 12:16 pm

                     I am laughing so hard at this I have TEARS
                     1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:26 pm

                        Seriously. I rode a Grayhound from Denver to Flagstaff once. I have seen some shit.
                  2. a different Vicki, looking for America* April 12, 2017 at 1:27 pm

                     This may be regional. The worst I’ve run into on Greyhound (New York to/from Boston, and Boston to/from Montreal) is the driver getting lost because of construction and taking an hour to cover what should have been the last ten minutes of the trip. Other nuisances, well, the border crossing is still a border crossing in a private car, ditto traffic jams.

                     I wouldn’t have done what Sally did, but not because Greyhound is dangerous or unsavory, just because nothing in the situation explains fleeing in the middle of the night. I could see taking the bus home if she didn’t want to ride with her manager and coworker after calling the hotel and them being arrested, but she could still do the rest of the conference, and if necessary take the bus afterwards.
                     1. TootsNYC* April 12, 2017 at 4:24 pm

                        -Could- she even ride w/ her manager and coworker? They’d been arrested.

                        (the original post has nothing about “middle of the night”–just that she left the conference early)

                        I also sure as heck wouldn’t want to have to ride in the car with them, after they got arrested.
         2. Anonygoose* April 12, 2017 at 11:21 am

            Yeah, up until that point, I could see that it all may have been blown out of proportion:

            She may have declined the joint, realized that they shouldn’t have been smoking *anything* in a hotel room, told the front desk so that they would put a stop to it (so that the company wouldn’t have been charged a cleaning fee afterwards; she may have been trying to protect herself or her manager!), the hotel may have a policy where they have to report illegal activity, and then they called the police.

            But leaving the whole situation by Greyhound in the middle of it and demanding that they get fired shows that probably isn’t the case.
            1. Big Picture Person* April 12, 2017 at 12:16 pm

               I’m with ya. I was on Team Sally right up until she left the conference. I thought the same thing about protecting the company. The hotel may very well have billed the company for decontaminating the room had she not reported it. The team lead should be fired. You don’t ask a team member to break the law with you. Ever.
               As for Sally’s transfer request, I think a big part of the unknown is whether or not the two folks who were arrested are truly causing her trouble at work, or if she just feels uncomfortable. Again, the company’s liability becomes a topic if there is retaliation going on.
            2. LoiraSafada* April 12, 2017 at 12:28 pm

               This is waaaay too generous a read on the situation, IMO.
            3. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 12:57 pm

               It’s a tangential point, but anywhere I stay in the US I usually sign that I will not smoke in the room.

               Just to add on to the manager’s weird presumption that no one would have a problem with this. Like, if the hotel sent the company a bill for needing to steam clean the carpets and drapes.
         3. Newby* April 12, 2017 at 11:23 am

            We don’t really know why she over reacted though. I think that would be an important part to figure out. How much were they pressuring her? Has she been caught smoking pot before or did she know someone who had been? How old is she? The manager showed extremely poor judgement in this case and if Sally is very young it might explain why she reacted the way she did.
         4. k* April 12, 2017 at 11:25 am

            Yes, even if her co-workers were using a harder drug like heroin, her leaving in the middle of the night doesn’t jive with me. She alerted the hotel, police were involved. There’s no reason she couldn’t go back to her own hotel room for the night and attend the conference the next day.
            1. A mouse who is Anon* April 12, 2017 at 11:51 am

               To me it sounded like she left before knowing the police got involved.

               I’ve been on work trips where I was the odd one out (only woman, not a heavy drinker), and getting invited to my supervisor’s hotel room in a distant city and invited to participate (in drugs OR drinking) would have made me feel deeply unsafe. I really think it’s unkind to chastise Sally for feeling unsafe in the situation and doing her best to remove herself and get back to her support network.
               1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 11:55 am

                  I’m sorry, I just don’t buy that. Unless it was a really, truly bad scene – like, Fear and Loathing-level bad – there’s absolutely nothing in the situation as described that should make a basically stable, healthy person feel unsafe or like they need to leave immediately to get back to their support network.
                  1. Meghan* April 12, 2017 at 12:11 pm

                     I don’t think that’s fair. Some people have value systems that are incredibly anti-drug. Just because most commenters here on AskAManager have had experiences with pot and would not feel unsafe in that situation doesn’t mean that’s the Only Rational Healthy Balanced Way to feel. For some people in some value systems, simply being offered an illegal drug would cause them to panic, no matter what that drug was. I know some people who feel the same way about being offered alcohol.
                     1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:19 pm

                        I’m aware that there are people who feel this way, but I’m going to push back very hard against the suggestion that an overreaction on this scale is rational, healthy, or balanced in any way. It’s not rational, healthy, or balanced to feel personally threatened to the point of flight by an offer of a joint in a hotel room, in America in 2017. It’s just not.

                        Note that I’m entirely okay with her being uncomfortable with the situation, reporting it to HR, not wanting to work with those coworkers anymore, et cetera. I’m okay with strongly anti-drug values. I’m okay with disapproval. But if this situation causes someone to panic and flee after getting their coworkers arrested, they’re the ones with the problem.
                     2. LKW* April 12, 2017 at 12:22 pm

                        Panic if offered a drink? Unless they are living in a dry county or socialize only with people who feel the same – how can they function.
                     3. Meghan* April 12, 2017 at 12:39 pm

                        I work with some people who do not drink and are against people drinking around them for religious reasons. Their stance on illegal drugs of any sort is even more extreme. I can absolutely see them reacting the EXACT SAME WAY Sally did if they were offered pot. A lot of people in America in 2017 do not drink and have never even seen drugs outside of TV and the movies. A lot of people in America in 2017 do not consider pot to be a minor drug, are anti-legalization, and do not want to be involved in anything that might seem like an illegal activity. They may be seen as “the ones with the problem” to those of us who have different value systems and are from more relaxed cultures and families of origin, but they also have to work to pay their bills and they are out there in the workplace. I think many of them are rational, healthy, and balanced. They just DISAGREE with me about drugs and alcohol. That doesn’t make them irrational, it means they have a different value system than I do.

                        Someone in the comment section here referred to them as “normies” earlier, which I found a little hilarious.
                     4. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:44 pm

                        “They just DISAGREE with me about drugs and alcohol. That doesn’t make them irrational, it means they have a different value system than I do. ”

                        I am NOT talking about their views, and it’s getting a little frustrating for you to keep talking past that distinction when I’ve been very careful to emphasize it. Disagreement and different values are, once again, 100% valid and rational. Reacting the way Sally did, however, regardless of disagreement and different values, is not valid nor rational, regardless of one’s valid alternate viewpoint.
                     5. Meghan* April 12, 2017 at 12:52 pm

                        How do you figure? If someone believes something to be not only illegal but immoral and comes from a value system in which doing drugs is a terrible offense, how is it not rational for their reaction to be to want to stop the activity from happening and to immediately leave the situation, conference be damned?
                     6. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:19 pm

                        Because….it’s not? Look, it’s cool if you believe that, but like I said elsewhere in the thread, this is America, and the year is 2017. In a plural, diverse society, you’re going to be confronted, sometimes daily, by people who behave and believe in ways you find personally abhorrent. One may believe that doing drugs is a terrible moral offense, but it’s simply not rational to translate that into a massively punitive reaction and flee in moral terror. It’s just not.

                        One of my clients recently made a racist comment about immigrants, one of which I’m married to, and about her ethnic group. Did I report his comment to his entire chain of command, report him to the EEOC, and flee from my workplace in high dudgeon? No, despite being personally and morally affronted in the extreme. I had a discreet word with his boss about it, he was formally reprimanded, he apologized to me personally, and I dropped it.
                     7. Anonymous 40* April 12, 2017 at 2:02 pm

                        Your first paragraph is ironic given the highly judgmental nature of the rest of your comments. And yes, saying someone is irrational for acting in a way with which you personally disagree is judgmental. In much the same way Sally was.
                     8. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 2:08 pm

                        Then I’m judgmental. I’m fine with that.
                     9. Mike C.* April 12, 2017 at 2:10 pm

                        I don’t think we should have to indulge in the irrationality of others when it have have life changing consequences.
                     10. Meghan* April 12, 2017 at 2:19 pm

                         It’s not rational because you disagree with her reaction? Is that what you’re saying? Because that’s how I am reading you. Just because you would be fine in this situation, doesn’t mean other people in America in 2017 would be, and there are a whole range of healthy, balanced, rational reactions to almost any situation dependent upon the perspective of the person reacting.
                     11. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 2:39 pm

                         “Because that’s how I am reading you.”

                         Are you reading me at all? Honest question, because I feel like you’re talking past me every time you post.
                     12. Anonymous 40* April 12, 2017 at 4:08 pm

                         You keep saying Sally’s behavior is “irrational” as though it’s an objective fact. It’s not. It’s an opinion. Disliking someone’s behavior doesn’t make it irrational. Then you say this:

                         this is America, and the year is 2017. In a plural, diverse society, you’re going to be confronted, sometimes daily, by people who behave and believe in ways you find personally abhorrent.

                         ….which apparently applies to Sally, but not to your reaction to her. This sub-thread reads as though you expect Sally to recognize other beliefs and behaviors as valid regardless of her personal opinion, but exempt yourself from the same standard. Apparently that’s okay, though, because you really, really dislike the way she acted.

                         The distinction between beliefs and actions is similarly contradictory. It’s fine for the coworkers to act on their beliefs, despite the illegality of their actions, but Sally’s actions are “irrational,” despite being consistent with her beliefs. The only difference seems to be that you agree with the coworkers and disagree with Sally.
                  2. diaphanous* April 12, 2017 at 12:23 pm

                     Except for feeling pressured by her boss to commit a felony.
                     1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:27 pm

                        That’d make a rational person feel hella awkward and pissed off and they’d probably report it to my grandboss or HR when they got back, but again: fleeing town is completely off the reservation.
                     2. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 12:34 pm

                        To be fair, marijuana possession is usually a misdemeanor. It typically only rises to felony status if there is possession with intent to deliver (i.e. being a dealer).
                     3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:38 pm

                        Also….c’mon. It’s not like she was being pressured to shank somebody or knock off a bank. Yes, it was technically a felony, but let’s not dramatize this too much. She was being invited to sit in a smoky hotel room and giggle for a few hours.
                     4. Meghan* April 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm

                        Right, but to her, it probably felt really dramatic. It might have been the most dramatic night of her entire life.
                     5. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 1:00 pm

                        I just did a search and under no state law is possessing a joint a felony and in no state is smoking weed a felony, so…I’m not sure where the hell that’s coming from.

                        The only way it’s a felony possession in any amount is if they were close to a school or, weirdly enough, a church.
                     6. Owl* April 12, 2017 at 1:11 pm

                        A FELONY?? I highly doubt the guy brought enough weed with him to qualify for felony possession.
                  3. A mouse who is Anon* April 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm

                     Really? Coworkers+supervisor you aren’t necessarily very close to attempt to give you mood altering substances while you are alone with them, in a place you don’t know anyone else, and where you may be depending on them for travel, etc, and you see no reason for a basically stable, healthy person to feel unsafe, unless the “scene” meets a certain level of debauchery?
                     1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:29 pm

                        No, I really don’t. Irritated, aghast, awkward? Totally understandable. Personally offended, morally outraged? Less understandable to me, but valid and reasonable. Driven to flee to the nearest bus station and blow town that night? No, not remotely understandable. Basically stable, healthy person would not do that.
                     2. Amber T* April 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm

                        For me, it entirely depends on how it was offered and the pressure that came after. LW makes it sound like Sally was offered, she declined, and the other two went off to smoke. If that’s all it was, I’m with Mad Scientist – this was an overreaction and things could have been handled with HR/LW/at the company level.

                        Is it possible that there was a lot more pressure than LW let on? I think he or she would have mentioned that, but maybe. Is it possible that there was a lot more pressure than Sally told LW? Possibly. But we’ve seen enough letters where there could have been so much happening that the OP didn’t mention for whatever reason. I think we need to take this letter at face value, believe what the LW said, and make our judgments from there.
                     3. A mouse who is Anon* April 12, 2017 at 12:51 pm

                        Oh. Hmm. Interesting. I’m not talking about feeling offended, or outraged by someone else’s drug use. I’m actually talking about being concerned that you’re being set up for sexual harassment/assault by people you know, but not well, once everyone’s moods have been altered sufficiently.

                        It’s quite possible that my reaction to a supervisor offering a subordinate mood altering substances here is “unhealthy”, but it’s the kind of unhealthy that grows out of negative experiences.
                     4. aebhel* April 12, 2017 at 12:52 pm

                        I mean, by that argument, offering her a cocktail would be the same level of offense, and I think we can all probably agree that most reasonable people would not react that way to their manager offering them a cocktail, even if they declined and found it inappropriate.

                        The issue here isn’t ~mood altering substance~ it’s straight up that weed is illegal. I think the manager showed incredibly poor judgment, but no, I don’t think ‘hey, you want a hit?’ is flee-into-the-night panic-inducing for most people unless there’s a lot more going on that wasn’t mentioned (unless, I suppose, they were all sharing a room, but it doesn’t sound like that was the case). And I don’t even smoke weed, or particularly enjoy being around people who do.

                        If she had said no, told them that she found it inappropriate, and went back to her own room–or even if she had told the front desk about it–then I’d pretty much be on her side about that (although not about the ‘fire them, transfer me, or I quit’ ultimatum). What she did was melodramatic to the extreme.
                     5. Yorick* April 12, 2017 at 12:54 pm

                        Maybe it’s reasonable to feel unsafe enough to leave the room. Definitely not unsafe to get on a bus in the middle of the night instead of finishing your work trip.

                        Also, it’s 2017. You can call your support network if you’re upset by what happens on a work trip, get some advice, and still carry on like a professional.
                     6. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 1:00 pm

                        I’m actually talking about being concerned that you’re being set up for sexual harassment/assault by people you know, but not well, once everyone’s moods have been altered sufficiently.

                        That seems like a crazy leap to make. Do you think a manager that goes out for drinks with her employees is setting them up to be harassed or assaulted?
                     7. A mouse who is Anon* April 12, 2017 at 1:11 pm

                        @LBK

                        No? Nor do I have a problem hanging out with coworkers of any gender in hotel rooms. It’s very specifically the superior inviting subordinate to hotel room and encouraging partaking in drugs/hard alcohol when it’s clear they don’t know each other well enough to know if that’s something they’d be interested in that raises my hackles.

                        As mentioned, it’s quite possible that my perspective on this is more skewed by negative experiences than I’d realised. But I don’t know that anyone here is really arguing that the manager in this scenario behaved appropriately/professionally, so there’s quite a gulf between this and manager taking subordinate out for drinks.

                        I was merely trying to provide context for why this scenario might actually make someone feel unsafe enough to take a bus home.
                     8. green state resident* April 12, 2017 at 1:35 pm

                        Do we even know if the company has a weed-friendly culture? Long before legalization, I’ve worked for places where it was fairly common, and common knowledge, that many employees and bosses were recreational pot smokers.
                        Obviously we mustn’t break the law, ever, but perhaps smoking a joint together while on a business trip isn’t that uncommon for employees of this company.
                     9. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 1:46 pm

                        I dunno, I just find the description of weed as a “mind-altering substance” to be a little…disingenuous? It reads to me that you’re framing it as if the manager was trying to roofie the employee or something.

                        I think, too, that if you’re someone who smokes socially, it probably wouldn’t occur to you that someone would be so affronted by being offered it – if anything, it would seem rude to be doing it with another person around and not offer it to them, the same as if you were having a drink and someone showed up.

                        I just think your description inserts a nefarious intent where I think it’s wildly unlikely one existed.
                     10. Mike C.* April 12, 2017 at 2:12 pm

                         Oh crap, my boss once bought me a beer!
                     11. DaleDobak* April 12, 2017 at 4:23 pm

                         She was so offended that she stuck around to take a picture of him smoking the joint.
                         If she was so morally aghast, then she should have fled the second he asked.
                         And I call BS on them being arrested. Never happened.
                  4. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 2:39 pm

                     Yeah, unless OP left out that the colleagues were smoking weed laced with PCP with a group of strippers and porn playing on the TV, I don’t buy that it was anything beyond “want a toke?” I personally wouldn’t invite a coworker back to my hotel room for any reason, ESPECIALLY one of the opposite sex, ESPECIALLY to smoke weed, but in all of my many exposures to small-group toking it’s been very laid back. I had a very sheltered roommate in college and she tagged along with me to my brother’s apartment to hang out, where people were ripping from a bong while playing video games. She freaked and noped out of there so fast like I had brought her to a red light district brothel. I think this situation is more like mine than a Fear and Loathing thing.
            2. TootsNYC* April 12, 2017 at 4:26 pm

               There’s nothing in the OP about “middle of the night.” Did I miss it in an update?

               She left before the conference was over. But maybe a bus ride was her only way to get home–if her manager drove, he may have been in jail. Or, she probably didn’t want to ride back with them; can you imagine THAT car ride?
         5. Yappa* April 12, 2017 at 11:52 am

            She had just narc’ed out her boss and co-worker and got them arrested. She could expect them to be extremely mad at her the next day… perhaps even to the point of firing her. It is perfectly reasonable that she fled back to the safety of her office.

            Having said that, Sally sounds like a truly toxic individual. She should be handled with great care but eased out as soon as possible.
            1. Whats In A Name* April 12, 2017 at 1:58 pm

               I think she was dramatic but I don’t know about toxic. I mean, she was offered an illegal substance by her supervisor. While I agree fleeing was a bit over the top I don’t think it makes her toxic. I don’t know if I’d still want to work with someone who tried to get me to partake in an illegal activity. And I’m ok with the legalization of it. But it’s not legal YET where they are.
               1. kittycritter* April 12, 2017 at 3:10 pm

                  Yes I think calling her toxic is more than fair – if this whole situation happened at my place of employment, you can bet I would avoid her like the plague and never talk to her unless I absolutely had to (and even then, I would make sure to talk to her in a completely clinical way, devoid of any hint of my own personality) and never EVER agree to travel with her because I would be scared she would flip out and narc on me for having a beer or something. Toxic? YES
                  1. Whats In A Name* April 12, 2017 at 3:21 pm

                     I’m not following – seriously. I think she way overreacted – but she didn’t call the cops. And we can debate all day if that is what she thought happened, but hotel called cops. I’ve called about weed smell in a hotel when I didn’t know the people. I don’t care if you smoke or not – I just don’t want to smell it. I don’t call thinking the cops are going to get called. And they weren’t drinking a beer. They were doing what she thought was an illegal activity. Well, I guess it is illegal but anywho. And LW didn’t give any indication in her letter than this was the latest in a string of continued behavioral issues.

                     I guess I would be guarded in my personal interactions, and I definitely wouldn’t ask her to get high with me. I just don’t think she’s the biggest issue here.
                     1. Frozen Ginger* April 12, 2017 at 4:44 pm

                        Don’t disagree with your points, but I still think the connotation of “narc” might make a number of coworkers avoid her. I mean, even in this comment section people are viewing her in the most negative way for leaving. So I don’t think it’s such a big leap to think that some of Sally’s coworkers might be thinking the same thing.
         6. Amy* April 12, 2017 at 12:20 pm

            If she doesn’t know a lot about how pot affects people and she obviously didn’t have her own transport part of her issue may have been related to driving home with someone who she thought was impaired. I would never take a bus in the middle of the night unless I absolutely had to but it may have seemed like the only option to her.
   4. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:09 am

      IMO recreational weed is illegal like jaywalking is illegal. Lots of people do it, nobody gets hurt, and nobody knows if you don’t get caught.

      This is an insane overreaction on Sally’s part.
      1. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 11:11 am

         Tell that to all the people who are currently serving jail time for possession or possession with intent. No matter what our personal feelings are about pot, if it’s illegal where you live, you’re taking a risk.
         1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:15 am

            I’m not sure if this is just your usual tone, but every comment of mine you reply to is…less than friendly. Is that intentional?

            Anyway sure it’s illegal and sure there are consequences IF YOU GET CAUGHT but if Sally hadn’t gone all DEA on these people, it wouldn’t be an issue.

            Show me one person in this country who abides by all laws all the time. Speeding is against the law. Having a headlight out is against the law. In Texas, swearing in front of a corpse is against the law.
            1. Jessie the First (or second)* April 12, 2017 at 11:26 am

               “In Texas, swearing in front of a corpse is against the law.”

               Wait….what??

               Anyway,the difference between recreational marijuana use and, say, jaywalking is that there are federal drug laws at play. Like, I will get a ticket if I jaywalk and a police officer nearby sees me. Oops. If I get caught with pot, then depending on the state and the specifics of where/how I could end up facing mandatory jail time. So yes,no one gets hurt and no one obeys the law all the time and I get it. But the risk with breaking drug laws is that the penalties are way disproportionate (IMO) to the activity. So sure, no one gets hurts – except you if you get caught. And you get hurt big time. So for a manager to do this on a work trip and invite juniors/direct reports to partake is insanity.
               1. Chris* April 12, 2017 at 11:35 am

                  That was so odd I had to look it up. It’s also apparently illegal in Texas to indecently expose yourself in front of a corpse. I’m getting a very strange mental picture of Texas funerals here, people.
                  1. Lily in NYC* April 12, 2017 at 11:44 am

                     Wow! I think I’d be cool with having a flasher at my funeral. At least people would remember me for a little while longer because they’d be like “Hey, remember when Chris pulled it out at Lily’s funeral? She would have laughed!”.
                     1. Michelenyc* April 12, 2017 at 12:04 pm

                        Lol
                  2. AMG* April 12, 2017 at 11:46 am

                     I would like to know the stories behind these laws. I am apparently very vanilla in my life experiences compared to the settlers in Texas.
                     1. Happy Lurker* April 12, 2017 at 1:44 pm

                        +1
                  3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 11:52 am

                     “F**ck it, I’ll rock out with my cock out at Grandma’s funeral if I want to!”

                     “Sir, you have the right to remain silent…..”
                     1. AMG* April 12, 2017 at 11:57 am

                        lol’ing at my desk right now!
                     2. PlainJane* April 12, 2017 at 4:29 pm

                        That was almost Diet-Coke-up-the-nose funny! I’m dyin’ over here.
                  4. Maxwell Edison* April 12, 2017 at 12:34 pm

                     Now I want to be buried in Texas just so someone can swear and disrobe in front of my corpse. I’ll put it in my will that my BFF has to do this or I won’t leave him my record collection.
                  5. Rebecca in Dallas* April 12, 2017 at 3:40 pm

                     I’m apparently going to the wrong funerals.
                  6. Jadelyn* April 12, 2017 at 5:02 pm

                     It really makes you wonder what happened, and at how many funerals, that made them feel like it had to be a law, lol.
               2. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:35 am

                  I know, it’s a weird fact I read the other day.

                  I get the consequences. But these people wouldn’t have gotten caught had Sally not lost her mind.

                  I’m NOT condoning smoking on a work trip or offering it to a subordinate, just to be clear.
                  1. Aurion* April 12, 2017 at 11:37 am

                     I was under the impression pot leaves a very distinct (and unpleasant, in my view) odour? That sinks into fabrics? The hotel cleaning staff would probably have discovered the pot use the next day if they had been smoking indoors.
                     1. Countess Boochie Flagrante* April 12, 2017 at 11:43 am

                        It’s very pervasive, too. My neighbors have, in the past, smoked enough to give me an ugly headache right through the apartment walls.
                     2. Oryx* April 12, 2017 at 12:36 pm

                        It does but it’s temporary. I’ve been in the homes of daily pot smokers and you wouldn’t know it unless you are smelling it as they are smoking in front of you.
                     3. Rebecca in Dallas* April 12, 2017 at 3:41 pm

                        It is a strong, distinctive smell but it doesn’t linger like cigarette smoke does.
                     4. Jadelyn* April 12, 2017 at 5:03 pm

                        Re it lingering – it really depends on how often they smoke, I’ve got a friend who’s a fairly heavy stoner in his off-hours and I do smell it whenever I walk into his place, even if he hasn’t smoked yet that day at all.
                  2. WerkingIt* April 12, 2017 at 11:57 am

                     Ehh… I feel a little bit like what you’re saying is “snitches get stitches”. Personally, I’m of the opinion that if you see something that makes you uncomfortable, you say something. And perhaps she was uncomfortable given that what they were doing was frankly illegal where they live. You don’t get to chose the laws you abide by. Regardless of your feelings on legalization, she didn’t want trouble. For all we know, she was worried she would also get in trouble. Perhaps that is even why she left in the middle of the night. The cops got involved and she wanted to go home. While I may not have gotten on the bus in the middle of the night, when the po-po arrived, I’d be over the trip and want to go home.

                     But saying “it’s Sally’s fault” doesn’t sit right with me.
                     1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 12:03 pm

                        Well, we’re all entitled to our opinions. But no, I didn’t say snitches get stitches. I said Sally is directly responsible for her team going to jail. That is a fact.

                        I would be A-OK with Sally reporting this at work and letting them handle it. That’s a normal reaction.

                        The way she actually handled it is completely over the top.
                     2. Meghan* April 12, 2017 at 12:13 pm

                        Right, I don’t think this woman is very informed of the law. For all she knew, she might think that just knowing someone else is smoking and not reporting it is illegal. Some people with jobs are that naive.
                     3. aebhel* April 12, 2017 at 1:00 pm

                        There’s a difference between snitching on someone who is harming you or someone else, and snitching on someone who is breaking the rules in a way that harms no one. IMO, if something isn’t hurting you and you’re uncomfortable with it, the mature thing to do is to remove yourself from the situation.

                        Also, it’s a bit hypocritical to call the cops on someone and then get upset that there are police involved in the situation.
                     4. JB (not in Houston)* April 12, 2017 at 2:47 pm

                        @Bend and Snap No, the people smoking pot were directly responsible for them going to jail. I don’t agree with what Sally did, but it’s not like she planted it on them or made them do it. She also didn’t make the hotel call the cops or make the cops choose to arrest them. If her supervisor didn’t want to risk going to jail, he should not have been smoking in a semi-public place or–as Alison pointed out–offer it to someone when he had no idea how they felt about pot.
                     5. PlainJane* April 12, 2017 at 4:33 pm

                        “There’s a difference between snitching on someone who is harming you or someone else, and snitching on someone who is breaking the rules in a way that harms no one. IMO, if something isn’t hurting you and you’re uncomfortable with it, the mature thing to do is to remove yourself from the situation.” THIS. For me, “If you see something, say something,” applies to situations that seem like they could end in someone getting hurt. Speaking only for myself, I don’t want to live in a culture that encourages people to snitch on each other for minor stuff that harms no one. That’s a little too close to how things operate under authoritarian regimes.
            2. TheVet* April 12, 2017 at 11:36 am

               The first sentence of the response was curt, but it’s true-I honestly rolled my eyes at your initial post because it’s more than a little tone deaf and that was going to be nearly my exact response. There are people, specifically brown and black ones, who get “caught” more often and punished far more harshly than those people who just so happen to be less brown or black.
               1. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 11:42 am

                  Yup, exactly.

                  And while I personally wouldn’t have turned in my colleagues for smoking on a work trip, I also would definitely be questioning their judgment. Although I’m the kind of person who probably would have said so in the moment. Like “What the hell are you doing?!”
                  1. WerkingIt* April 12, 2017 at 12:02 pm

                     “What the hell are you doing?!” It’s just so inappropriate and even more so in a state where it’s illegal.

                     Exactly. I think we get caught up in the “legalize it” debate. But let’s just say the team lead wanted everyone to go back to his room and do shots. So, you’re a woman (Sally) who is invited back to your male supervisors room with another colleague and he wants to do shots? Danger! Danger!

                     Shots are far more legal than pot. But the uncomfortableness of the situation is still there. I’m blown away that there team lead didn’t get a bigger reprimand.
                     1. Amy* April 12, 2017 at 12:27 pm

                        Yeah, I do think the OP and Allison are really overlooking how messed up the situation was before Sally overreacted. It may seem that way to me because if this had happened with employees of my company they would have 100% been fired. However, we’re a manufacturer and have hard line rules about drugs related to safety and they are no exceptions made even for people who never step foot on the plant floor.
                  2. JustaTech* April 12, 2017 at 12:49 pm

                     My reaction might well have been “What the hell are you doing, this is a non-smoking room! That’s a $300 fine! Also, totally illegal and the folks next door will totally smell you. Are you nuts?”
                     The only reason I can see for the middle-of-the-night-bus-home (and wouldn’t that be full of some fascinating characters!) is if Sally was sharing a room with the other two, and therefore didn’t have anywhere to go.
                     1. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 1:28 pm

                        I’m pretty sure I would have said “Are you effing kidding me? No, I don’t want to and you better not either. You wanna do that crap at home, fine, but this is a work trip.”

                        But I also acknowledge that I’m kind of a b*tch and not everyone would be comfortable doing the same in that situation.
               2. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:44 am

                  Thank you for the very thoughtful reply telling me that you rolled my eyes at my opinion and calling me tone deaf.

                  Tell me how likely it is that you’re going to get your door kicked in for quietly smoking in a private space. Do you have that info?

                  Transporting it in your car, smoking or carrying it around in public, etc. is risky for sure. but my point–which is racially neutral–is that doing this in private doesn’t carry a lot of risk. Or it shouldn’t, anyway.
                  1. SometimesALurker* April 12, 2017 at 12:01 pm

                     Shouldn’t, but does. I’m sorry that you feel TheVet hurt your feelings, but their sentence “There are people, specifically brown and black ones, who get “caught” more often and punished far more harshly than those people who just so happen to be less brown or black.” is verifiable and true and it’s important not to shrug off the racial differences in this situation. Your point is not actually racially neutral, as much as it should be in a better world.
                     1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 12:08 pm

                        It didn’t hurt my feelings. It was a rude way to phrase it.

                        I also didn’t rebut the sentence you quoted. And I don’t appreciate being called racially tone deaf based on one comment.

                        My point, which everyone except LBK seems to be missing, IS NOT ABOUT THE PUNISHMENT. It’s about the existence of the law itself.
                     2. AMG* April 12, 2017 at 1:32 pm

                        I’m with you Bend & Snap. I think people tend to shy away from the conflicts in these posts and that’s why you aren’t seeing comments from those who generally agree.
                  2. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 12:02 pm

                     The hotel room was probably non-smoking and it’s not the same smoking there as it would be in your apartment.

                     And the hotel wouldn’t have been able to call the cops on someone jaywalking. There’s a huge difference between the two crimes so it’s disingenuous to minimize someone smoking pot like that. Morally, you might view them the same, but legally it’s quite different than jaywalking or swearing at a corpse. I heartily invite you to try calling in “someone is smoking marijuana” vs “someone is swearing at a corpse” to Texas police and seeing the different responses.
                     1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 12:09 pm

                        For the love of god I’m talking about the law and not the consequences. As I’ve stated several times.
                     2. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 1:26 pm

                        The time to protest that law is not on company trips.
                     3. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 2:13 pm

                        And if you were actually reading my comments instead of knee-jerk disagreeing with me, you’d see that I made that distinction.
                     4. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 2:31 pm

                        I read your comments. I don’t actually think you’re making that distinction.
                     5. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 2:40 pm

                        Then you need to read again. I specifically said that the manager did not use good judgment and that this should be handled as a disciplinary issue in the office.

                        And I never said that it was OK to “protest the law” on company business.
                     6. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 2:55 pm

                        Let me rephrase: given the reaction you’re getting on this thread, you’re not making the point you think you’re making. But thank you for clarifying.
                     7. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 2:58 pm

                        Y’all, please leave this here and move on. Thanks.
                  3. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 12:11 pm

                     A hotel isn’t a private space. There is always a chance that the people in the next room or across the hall or even just walking by could have smelled it and turned them in.
                     1. Meghan* April 12, 2017 at 12:16 pm

                        Right. A hotel is basically public. I think smoking in this particular environment is much riskier than, say, at a home.
                     2. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 12:19 pm

                        Yes, you’re correct, but I am pretty sure they’d complain to the front desk instead of calling the cops.

                        Unless they’re narcalicious like Sally.
                     3. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 12:36 pm

                        Sally told the front desk what her manager and colleague were doing, and the hotel called the police after confirming it.
                     4. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 12:39 pm

                        I missed that. YOU WIN, Detective Santiago.

                        Maybe you’ll let up on me now?
                     5. Electric Hedgehog* April 12, 2017 at 1:25 pm

                        So, I may be horrible, but if I had been next door to the manager’s room and smelled pot, I would have called the front desk and asked to be changed to a different room, and I would have said why. It’s not that I think weed is evil or wrong, or that I have any interest in getting anyone in trouble. I just have a bad physical reaction to the smell of weed (particularly cheap weed). It makes me throw up.

                        It sucks if someone gets arrested over that, but I’m really not inclined to spend the night perched over the toilet because of someone else’s actions.
                     6. PlainJane* April 12, 2017 at 4:37 pm

                        “So, I may be horrible, but if I had been next door to the manager’s room and smelled pot, I would have called the front desk and asked to be changed to a different room, and I would have said why.” That doesn’t seem horrible to me at all, because in that case you’re actually being harmed by the behavior. Totally understandable and reasonable. My issue with Sally is that she wasn’t being harmed, yet she behaved like they were hiding a body or something.
                  4. TheVet* April 12, 2017 at 2:12 pm

                     We share the same opinion-the law is ridiculous-but it exists and impacts different people VERY differently. Yes, lots of people do it. True, most times people don’t get hurt. It all breaks down when there is such a glaring difference in who gets “caught” and who doesn’t. That’s the part that made me roll my eyes. That’s the part that was tone deaf. Not getting caught is easy when you aren’t targeted for catching and over-policed.

                     Pretend we have a testing system where a lot of people cheat and everyone knows a lot of people cheat, but we all act like no one cheats.

                     You have a room with 100 people taking a spelling test and 10 proctors (because we’ve heard that those spelling test takers cheat) who find 27 cheaters and put them all out.
                     You have another room with 100 people taking a math test and 2 proctors who find 8 cheaters, but the proctors let 5 of the cheaters stay.

                     That doesn’t mean people taking math tests cheat less often than people taking spelling tests, but the administrators take one of the proctors from the math testing room and put them in the spelling test room because the spelling testing room is full of cheaters who need to be caught and put out. There’s no cheating problem in the math room because they only found 3 people cheating, right?

                     Then you, coming out of the math testing room, tell people from the spelling testing room, “Everyone cheats, so it’s not a big deal. Just don’t get caught!” Totally easy to say when you’re going back to a room with a 1:97 chance of getting caught and know that you could possibly be let off with a finger wag to finish your testing.

                     Also, I rolled my eyes again and I’m not going to stop. I’d do it if you were sitting in front of me. There are things that we all do that get an eye roll. Thinking that we’re race neutral is one of them and we really need to get out of the habit of letting people babe in the woods themselves out of it.
                     1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 2:18 pm

                        Rolling my eyes right back. There are other ways to make whatever your point was, and somehow surmising that you know anything about my views or knowledge based on one post that YOU made about race is pretty shitty.

                        I would like to state for the record (AKA ALISON) that I don’t think it’s within the site’s commenting guidelines to essentially call someone racist or racially ignorant–especially when you made it A Thing and it’s not the main topic of conversation.

                        Your comment is a terrible thing to say to someone, you don’t know what you’re talking about, and I don’t offend easily but I am pretty fucking offended by your explanations and accusations in this conversation.

                        Keep rolling those eyes but finding my opinions worthy of that does not give you license to sling mud. Especially on a socially charged issue.
                     2. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 2:22 pm

                        Also, I rolled my eyes again and I’m not going to stop. I’d do it if you were sitting in front of me. There are things that we all do that get an eye roll. Thinking that we’re race neutral is one of them and we really need to get out of the habit of letting people babe in the woods themselves out of it.
                        ______________________

                        How’s the air up there on your high horse? *eye roll*
            3. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 12:13 pm

               Well, unless the hotel staff noticed the smell of marijuana or an improperly discarded joint the next morning.

               I wonder if Sally’s reaction was really overly aggressive CYA: “When you find a joint in the room, IT WASN’T ME.”
         2. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 11:26 am

            I think you misunderstood what Bend & Snap was saying…I read her comment as saying that the law is one of those ridiculous things that’s still on the books but shouldn’t be, not that there’s no real consequences for breaking that law.
            1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:31 am

               Correct. You always get me!
               1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 11:39 am

                  I think it helps that we’re usually on the same page :)
                  1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:50 am

                     Aren’t you in the Boston area too? Or did I make that up?
                     1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 1:35 pm

                        I am indeed – not just in the area but right in Boston.
                     2. AD* April 12, 2017 at 2:29 pm

                        Is there a cohort of Beantown AAM commenters I’m not aware of?
                     3. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 2:32 pm

                        I think there needs to be!
                     4. KR* April 12, 2017 at 2:50 pm

                        Formally Boston-area !
            2. Jessie the First (or second)* April 12, 2017 at 11:47 am

               But I think Amy’s point was that you can’t analyze this without considering the consequences, because the consequences could be very big. Consider it a silly law all you want, but the potential fallout is so huge that is is terrible, terrible judgment to take this risk (and you up the risk a bunch when you ask people you do not know well to join in).
               1. Parenthetically* April 12, 2017 at 11:51 am

                  “Consider it a silly law all you want, but the potential fallout is so huge that is is terrible, terrible judgment to take this risk (and you up the risk a bunch when you ask people you do not know well to join in).”

                  I just think people need to read that again. And as TheVet said above, there are a whole lot of very real consequences for a whole lot of black and brown people for “just” possessing weed in this country.
               2. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 12:14 pm

                  Exactly.

                  And, as I just mentioned above, anyone in that hotel could have smelled pot and reported it to the front desk/called the cops. I do think Sally’s reaction was a little extreme, but I would be very uncomfortable knowing that my colleagues were currently doing something illegal while representing our organization and would be concerned that if they were caught, it could somehow blow back on me.
                  1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:31 pm

                     Then why not take it up with OP, who sounds like a grandboss, or HR? It’d be totally reasonable to deal with it as a professional conduct issue, while displaying the sense and discretion not to turn it into a life-changing incident for all involved.
                     1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 12:32 pm

                        THIS
                     2. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:33 pm

                        Exactly. She knew exactly what she was doing when she reported it to the hotel instead of handling it internally. She wanted external consequences and she got them. Ridiculous and dangerous.
                     3. Parenthetically* April 12, 2017 at 1:03 pm

                        Not Mad, help me out here. What other illegal activities would we recommend this course of action with — to shift the blame to a bystander for reporting rather than the person committing the illegal activity for committing it? As a victim of sexual assault I freely admit that my dirty lenses are totally involved here — I find myself reacting strongly against this language of “don’t report stuff like this, or you’ll ruin someone’s life.”

                        A really easy way for the manager not to get arrested for smoking weed is for him to have… not smoked weed, or failing that, at least not on a work trip, or failing that, at least not with reports. Does that make any sense? I respect your viewpoint and I’d love to hear further.
                     4. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:29 pm

                        The issue of legality doesn’t really enter into my calculus here, because I regard the legality of weed to be pretty divorced from the moral or ethical considerations of its use. Using it on a work trip with coworkers and offering it to underlings is an issue of poor judgment and a lack of sense for me, and only tertiarily an issue of legality. So I view it as more directly comparable with other examples of poor sense and judgment, legal or not, not with crimes.

                        I’d view it as, for example, more comparable to getting drunk with your coworkers and offering an underaged coworker a beer. Dumb, poorly considered, definitely worth reporting to a manager or HR, but….worth getting someone arrested over? Worth fleeing the conference over? Worth taking pictures? Absolutely not. Sm0king a joint with coworkers and direct reports strikes me as a judgment issue, and I’d deal with it in that light. Reporting it to the hotel and cops seems punitive, excessive, and unnecessary, given that nobody was victimized beyond being made uncomfortable by a manager with poor judgment.
                     5. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 1:33 pm

                        That’s actually probably what I would have done. Well, no, first I would have told them to stop being idiots and not smoke pot in a potentially non smoking hotel room while we’re on a business trip. Assuming that they listened, that would have been the end of it.

                        If they still insisted on doing it, I probably would have reported it to grandboss or HR. Not because I am morally against people smoking pot, but because they are representing the company and I think we have an obligation to hold ourselves to higher standards of behavior when we’re doing that.
                     6. CMart* April 12, 2017 at 1:41 pm

                        Maybe I’m a huge coward, but if I felt strongly enough about a superior’s behavior that it merited action (like offering me pot in a place where it’s illegal on a company trip) I would take the “easy” way out and complain to the hotel desk and let the consequences shake out as they may too instead of to my grandboss. I’d probably have done it anonymously and not fled in the night on a Greyhound, but I wouldn’t not have felt comfortable reporting it to my company myself.

                        It’s just a sketchy situation and I wouldn’t want to be seen as some fun-hating narq or for it to get shrugged off and for it to get back to my supervisor that I “tattled” on them.

                        Still a different situation than what Sally did, but I 100% understand the reasoning behind going to the hotel and not the company.
               3. paul* April 12, 2017 at 12:36 pm

                  Yep. Particularly for POC, but there’s plenty of places where *any* pot will get you in trouble.

                  Pass through a rural district with a bored sheriff’s deputy on duty and get caught with pot? You’re probably going to spend a night or three in jail, at least in my region. I follow all the county sheriff’s departments in my area that have FB pages, and the amount of post they make about frankly small arrest for pot is…well, I would be damn sure to follow traffic laws *perfectly* if I had any in their counties.
                  1. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 1:27 pm

                     It’s quite possible that Sally is a POC.
               4. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 1:41 pm

                  I think what’s difficult here is that we have no way to sort out how much of Sally’s reaction was due to personal objection to marijuana vs potentially being involved with something illegal, even if she herself doesn’t have an issue with marijuana. If you’re reading her as freaking out about weed, it seems like a crazy overreaction, but if you’re reading her as freaking out about the law being broken and not wanting to be involved in that, it’s still a little over the top but not as crazy.

                  (FWIW, I read it as the former, mostly because she went so extreme as to take a bus home – that doesn’t sound to me like someone who’s wary of legal risk, that sounds like someone who’s been traumatized by seeing something heinous. That’s the only way that reaction makes sense to me.)
      2. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 11:12 am

         Yeah, I agree. If someone were speedingten miles over the limit but going with the flow of traffic while on a work trip, it may be inappropriate and a liability but if it happens once and is reported and dealt with nobody needs to be fired. To me, this rises the the same level of illegality.
         1. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 11:40 am

            But people are really annoying when they have massive snits about how they got a ticket when they ran a stop sign but everyone runs stop signs and if they hadn’t been caught it would have been fine it’s not fair that they got a ticket just because they broke this law but lots of people break this law and are not reported… Some spots in the US tried the “just drive sensibly” standard and it turns out people are not universally sensible. Thus driving laws that are lines in the sand.
            1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 11:45 am

               I don’t disagree with any of this. I do think that minor traffic infractions need to be deal with internally (you can’t have people driving outside of the law while on company time) but nobody needs to throw a huge fit and get the cops involved and threaten to quit over such a thing either. Same thing here.
               1. WerkingIt* April 12, 2017 at 12:07 pm

                  I don’t know… If I was repeatedly asked to drive with someone who was scaring the crap out of me, I’d be concerned. Like a co-worked I ride with sometimes who I’ve had to snatch the phone from her hand or someone with insane road rage :)

                  I’ve said “No, I’m driving instead.” But if I don’t have a car or otherwise HAVE to ride with the other driver. It can be more serious than you think.
                  1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:15 pm

                     Yes, hence why if you get a report of dangerous or risky driving it should be dealt with immediately (I think I’ve made that clear multiple times now). We’re not talking about multiple marijuana infractions here. That’s sort of the point.

                     I’ve dealt with the driving issue before. I had a serious talk with the driver I was managing about following ALL driving laws and gave him a “last warning” type of thing. He followed the laws after that. The same thing could be done for marijuana manager and it would be fine. The whole point is that these things could be dealt with in a similar way (though I’d argue that the driving infractions are actually a more serious issue).
                  2. Amber T* April 12, 2017 at 12:57 pm

                     To go with your metaphor, to me it’s as if Sally got scared by someone going 60 in a 50, called the cops from inside the car, made the driver pull over, and ran for it.
                     1. aebhel* April 12, 2017 at 1:03 pm

                        +1
                     2. OhNo* April 12, 2017 at 1:43 pm

                        I’m with you on this one. The feelings behind Sally’s actions are valid, no matter what those feelings might have been (and we can debate all day about what they were, but we’ll never know for sure unless Sally finds this letter and tells us).

                        Her reaction, though, is way off base. You can’t always control your feelings, but you can usually control your reaction. It sounds like Sally didn’t even try.
            2. Xarcady* April 12, 2017 at 12:23 pm

               I drive through a 4-way stop intersection every morning on my way to work. About half the drivers follow the state rules for right-of-way; about half don’t.

               This morning, due to road construction and utility work in the center of the city, there were many more cars than usual going through the intersection. As I waited for my turn, there were two close calls, where the car with the right-of-way was almost hit by another car, clearly driven by a driver who didn’t want to wait.

               And the second time it happened? The driver got pulled over by the police. Because a) he wasn’t following the rules and b) the intersection is half a block from the police station. Thus showing a lack of intelligence all around by that driver.
      3. Daisy May* April 12, 2017 at 11:18 am

         Agree. I’m pro-legalization, but I think the manager showed pretty poor judgment. I’d say that if you’re doing something that could get you fired/arrested, it’s probably best not to do it in front of your coworkers.

         That said, Sally didn’t exhibit the best judgment either and I’d say reacted pretty immaturely for someone who is supposed to be a professional adult. But, who knows… maybe she’s had a negative experience with drugs.
         1. Amy* April 12, 2017 at 12:30 pm

            My BIL thinks he was unfairly arrested for possession (he wasn’t he’s just an idiot) so he might overreact himself in a similar situation to avoid that happening again.
      4. Allypopx* April 12, 2017 at 11:22 am

         But to this point, my HR department has talks with every new FT employee that they are not to jaywalk while on company business. We’re in Boston, that’s not realistic, but stating it as an expectation is a CYA step they take. The rules are different in a work setting, and illegal behavior shouldn’t necessarily be tolerated just because it’s minor.

         My HR departments logic is you don’t get workers comp for getting hit by car while blatantly jaywalking on work business. You also aren’t exempt from consequences if your recreational smoking upsets a coworker and she freaks out, because you shouldn’t be doing it. Especially for someone in that position of authority, I’d be seriously questioning their judgement and position.
         1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:33 am

            This makes me laugh! I’m in the Boston area and this has never come up in the workplace. You must work for a large company.

            I did try to jaywalk when on a business trip to Seattle and my coworkers were like NOPE WE DON’T DO THAT HERE.

            Then we passed some people smoking weed on the sidewalk.
            1. starsaphire* April 12, 2017 at 11:42 am

               Well, to be fair, it’s acceptable to smoke in downtown Seattle, as long as you’re within three blocks of a coffee place. ;)
            2. Allypopx* April 12, 2017 at 11:43 am

               I work for a tiny nonprofit actually!
            3. Manders* April 12, 2017 at 11:52 am

               Yep, that’s Seattle for you. I love my very weird city.

               I admit that having lived in Seattle for years is making it hard for me to see Sally’s perspective here. I’m used to pot being treated like the equivalent of offering your guests a glass of wine.
            4. WerkingIt* April 12, 2017 at 12:10 pm

               Were you in San Diego? Because I once jaywalked in San Diego and was stopped and told no one here does that by my host. He then jaywalked anyway. He said, “Hey, I’m from out of town,” and smirked.
               1. Amber T* April 12, 2017 at 2:40 pm

                  My dad is a native New Yorker, and if you’re not standing halfway into the street while waiting to cross, you’re not doing it right. He loves to tell the story about when he was out in California (don’t quite remember where) for a business trip, he took a step off curb while waiting to cross, and cars came to a screeching halt while all sorts of drivers yelled at him. My California friend is always intrigued (and probably a bit terrified) of my ability to dodge cars while crossing the street.
               2. Renee* April 12, 2017 at 4:51 pm

                  It is true. The cops in San Diego love to give out jaywalking tickets, especially in front of high schools, so there’s very much a culture of not jaywalking.
            5. Michelenyc* April 12, 2017 at 12:10 pm

               Portland, OR is the same way with jaywalking. I live in NYC now and always forget that I can’t jaywalk when I am visiting my family & friends.
               1. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 1:29 pm

                  Portland is the first place I ever jaywalked!
               2. PlainJane* April 12, 2017 at 4:42 pm

                  I elevated jaywalking to an art form in both Seattle and Portland. It always cracks me up when people say it isn’t done there.
            6. anonny* April 12, 2017 at 12:21 pm

               I’m also in Boston and this cracks me up. I can’t imaging walking around this city without jaywalking.
               1. Amber T* April 12, 2017 at 2:43 pm

                  Jesus Christ driving in Boston is the absolute worst. Sorry, Bostonians, but it’s true. The first time I was driving around Boston, someone popped out from behind a parked car, then looked surprised when I had to slam on the breaks (like, “are there cars on the street? whoa…”). I’m a New Yorker, so naturally I honked, then I got all sorts of glares. Proceeded to walk around the city with my Boston native friend… listen, I’m used to jaywalking, but OMG.
            7. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 2:50 pm

               I feel like jaywalking is a competitive sport here in DC!
         2. all aboard the anon train* April 12, 2017 at 11:43 am

            That’s….a stretch imo. I feel like there’s only a small percentage of people who would try to get workers comp for getting hit by a car when jaywalking during work hours. That’s a seriously stringent HR rule.

            Especially since it’s one of those laws in Boston that is practically never enforced. And when it is, the fine is only $1.
            1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:46 am

               And pedestrians have the right of way even when jaywalking.
            2. Allypopx* April 12, 2017 at 11:46 am

               Meh. It’s not enforced it’s just informed.
         3. Queerty* April 12, 2017 at 11:50 am

            +1.
         4. GingerHR* April 12, 2017 at 1:20 pm

            We don’t have jaywalking laws, so maybe I’m missing a point but if I was expected to have conversations about something like this as part of my role, I’d quit. We employ adults, and should treat them as such until there’s reason to do otherwise. On the other side, I’d be really miffed if someone had this kind of chat with me. I get the point re benefits, but stick it in a note about benefits.
            1. Brett* April 12, 2017 at 2:57 pm

               Eh, at my company we have HR talks about using handrails while walking up and down the stairs and not carrying open laptops.
               Why? Because someone crunched the numbers and found out that people falling down stairs with their hands full was the single biggest source of worker’s comp claims and lost work-hours.
               (And after staircase falls went down, they went after people getting hit in the parking lot while looking at their cell phones, because that was the new most expense safety hazard.)
      5. Brett* April 12, 2017 at 2:54 pm

         I think a far better analogy would be if Sally came into the room to find a stripper and was encouraged to stay and watch.

         An activity that is legal in some states, and illegal in others. Carries some moral baggage though neither strictly morally wrong or unethical. Unquestionably a wrong choice for a manager to participate it on a business trip while encouraging subordinates to do the same.

         If discovered, would probably get all three co-workers kicked out of the hotel, and possibly arrested in some states (more likely the stripper than the co-workers, but still possible).
   5. paul* April 12, 2017 at 11:15 am

      Yeah.

      This is such a train wreck. Just…man. Amazingly bad judgement on inviting direct reports to break the damn law, and barring them pressuring her, amazing overreacting on Sally’s part
   6. Kathleen Adams* April 12, 2017 at 11:16 am

      Man, I just don’t know. I’m not a smoker myself, but I know lots of people who are and am in favor of at least some aspects of legalization, and I do think Sally wildly overreacted – particularly in narcing out her coworkers to the police. Ye gods.

      But I’d be seriously disturbed and would lose a lot of respect for a colleague who smoked marijuana *with another colleague * on a work trip in a state where it’s illegal. Seriously, dude, what were you thinking? Or were you thinking at all?

      I don’t think he should be fired, but he definitely should be reprimanded because that was just…well, it was stupid. And juvenile.
      1. Kalamet* April 12, 2017 at 11:38 am

         I agree. Alison is correct that the manager clearly didn’t have a good read on how Sally would react. If he was going to smoke on the trip he should have kept it to himself. I’m pro legalization, but being invited to my manager’s room to smoke on a work trip would weird me out. It’s not an appropriate time or place.
      2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)* April 12, 2017 at 12:15 pm

         Sally reported the smoking to the hotel, not the police. I think that’s an important distinction. If I smelled smoke (or pot smoke) coming from the room next door to mine at my hotel, I’d absolutely call the front desk. It’s unpleasant for me (to smell the smoke), not allowed in the hotel, and in the case of pot, illegal in the state. It’s not a wild overreaction to pull the hotel in to try to stop it.
      3. j-nonymous* April 12, 2017 at 12:21 pm

         How would you feel about a manager who sneaked alcohol across county lines (into a dry county, I mean) and shared a couple beers with a direct report?
         1. NotMyRealName* April 12, 2017 at 12:57 pm

            I’d think they were a moron.
         2. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 1:08 pm

            I’m almost certain that “dry” counties can’t sell alcohol inside the county lines. Not that you can’t drink alcohol you purchased elsewhere.

            So the analogy would be more “what if the manager set up a little roadside stand stocked with beer he bought over the line, and tried to convince his two subordinates that they had to help him staff it so they could all earn a little extra cash on this trip.”

            In which case I would call the manager really stupid, including to the extent where the employee is justified in going into CYA mode.
            1. mcr-red* April 12, 2017 at 1:32 pm

               Yes you are correct. You can drink it, but not sell it. Says the person who lived in a dry county.
               1. Whats In A Name* April 12, 2017 at 2:15 pm

                  2nd here. Former dry county resident myself. There were liquor and beer stores all around the county borders. One called “County Line Liquor” as a matter of fact.
            2. j-nonymous* April 12, 2017 at 2:04 pm

               That’s not entirely true. Alaska allows its communities to decide whether alcohol is 100% illegal to possess and consume. I don’t have the up-to-date information on how many villages do outlaw it, but it wasn’t that uncommon a few years ago.
         3. The Anonymous One* April 12, 2017 at 1:41 pm

            Agreed with the others. See the 21st amendment, section 2.
         4. Spiny* April 12, 2017 at 2:04 pm

            Dry county= it’s illegal to sell alcohol, not drink it. And yes, if the manager was selling beer to their direct reports, the manager is an idiot.
            1. yasmara* April 12, 2017 at 2:33 pm

               Yeah, in Alaska, that would be a “damp” town/village. “Dry” would mean no alcohol allowed at all, even if you bring it in privately to drink in your home (or if you can, the amount is very, very small). And there *are* villages like that.

               But I think in general the usage is more colloquial or referring to the Lower 48 (that’s what we Alaskans call everyone else in the contiguous US, ha!), somewhere like Kentucky where there are dry counties in which you can drink, but not purchase, alcohol. Except if you’re in a private club. Which I believe there are many, and the membership is nominal.
               1. JB (not in Houston)* April 12, 2017 at 2:53 pm

                  Lower 48 is used that same way in those states as well!
   7. Lablizard* April 12, 2017 at 11:16 am

      Especially because the manager involved subordinates in an (rightly or wrongly) illegal activity on a work trip. It shows a lack of situational awareness.
      1. EddieSherbert* April 12, 2017 at 11:30 am

         +1
      2. Kathleen Adams* April 12, 2017 at 11:40 am

         I am trying to think of something comparable…

         Let’s try this: Say you had a 27-year-old supervisor buy a beer for his 20-year-old subordinate while they were on a work trip. The drinking laws in the US are, admittedly, bizarre and somewhat baffling, but under most circumstances, that would be illegal. Do I think a 20-year-old having a beer or two to be a major crime? No, I do not. Do I think this is very (very, very) common? Yes, I do.

         So I ask myself, if I found out that a 27-year-old supervisor had bought a beer for his 20-year-old subordinate while they were on a work trip, what would be my reaction? I would think it was stupid, inappropriate and immature, and I’d think the supervisor should be disciplined. I don’t think the circumstances here are that much different, at least not in terms of professional ethics and good judgment.
         1. Parenthetically* April 12, 2017 at 11:53 am

            I think that’s a good comparison. I think our drinking laws are a bit nuts (sign up to die for your country: fine! have a beer: NOT UNTIL YOU TURN A DIFFERENT ARBITRARY AGE, BUCKO!) but buying booze for minors shows a pretty serious gap in your ethics and judgment for sure.
            1. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 12:15 pm

               I bought booze for my siblings when they were underage. But I wouldn’t give it to anyone else’s kids.
               1. Parenthetically* April 12, 2017 at 1:05 pm

                  Yeah, absolutely. I mean in a situation like the one Kathleen was referring to.
               2. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 1:15 pm

                  So much of this comes down to situational awareness and good judgment. If someone offers to buy beer for a minor who freaks out at the suggestion and reports them, it’s clear that they were exercising neither.
               3. yasmara* April 12, 2017 at 2:37 pm

                  There’s a really sad story in my state right now with a dead younger sibling – her older brother bought her and some of her friends alcohol and she drove while drunk. She died near the scene after running away from the car. He’s being charged. So these actions have consequences, even if you might disagree with the drinking age law. If she had been 21, he would not be charged.
         2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 11:57 am

            I think it’s possible to acknowledge all of that as true and valid while still thinking Sally overreacted massively and bizarrely.
            1. LKW* April 12, 2017 at 12:28 pm

               Agreed, bad judgement from the manager. He didn’t have a good read on Sally. Did something stupid at a conference and now has to deal with the repercussions. However, turning in your team mate to the hotel on a work trip is so ridiculously immature that I can’t fathom how sheltered she must be.

               And now she’s complaining that the penalty is not severe enough for her judgement. I would not want to work with her for fear that she’s misinterpret or mis-perceive my actions and go running to HR.
            2. Kathleen Adams* April 12, 2017 at 12:58 pm

               I am not disputing that. I was just trying to figure out a way to judge the behavior of the two coworkers independent of arguments about marijuana and fleeing home on a Greyhound.
         3. mcr-red* April 12, 2017 at 1:34 pm

            I agree.
   8. hbc* April 12, 2017 at 11:17 am

      Yeah, it is completely inappropriate to ask an employee to join you in doing something *illegal.* I don’t care if it’s a minor offense or a stupid law or both, it’s just a bright line that shouldn’t be crossed. “My boss asked me to break the law” is not a statement an employee of a functional company should ever have to make.
      1. Newby* April 12, 2017 at 11:24 am

         That’s how I see it. I think the law needs to be changed, but a manager trying to get an employee to break the law (even a stupid law) is really not something that should happen.
      2. Meghan* April 12, 2017 at 12:18 pm

         This is exactly what I think as well.
      3. mcr-red* April 12, 2017 at 12:39 pm

         Exactly.
   9. The IT Manager* April 12, 2017 at 11:22 am

      Agreed! Manager needs to be fired for his poor judgment to do something illegal on a business trip in front of the people he supervises. It’s not like he was caught; he invited them into watch and partake of the illegal activity.

      I agree that Sally is being overly dramatic*, but I do think there’s a difference between being offered an alcoholic beverage and being offered an illegal substance. Somehow I think I might feel more pressure with the joint because it’s so out of norm for me. I feel I’d have to explain more that than just refusing a drink. I gave a really awkward refusal recently; at least it felt that way for me. And clearly Sally had some unusually strong feelings about illegal drugs.

      * OTOH now that I think about it she’s gotten her manager and co-worker arrested on possession I do understand why she needs to change offices within the organization. That’s got to be awkward and hard feelings can be expected.
      1. CBH* April 12, 2017 at 11:52 am

         +1 to The IT Manager comment

         I just wanted to add (not directly responding to the IT Manager’s comment), Sally did nothing wrong but everyone is faulting her for being overdramatic. Regardless of her beliefs & reaction she never should been put in this situation in the first place, let alone by her manager at a work conference.
         1. Browser* April 12, 2017 at 12:20 pm

            Agreed.

            People keep saying that “Sally got them arrested.” No, their own actions got them arrested. She didn’t make them smoke pot, so it’s not on her that they were arrested.
            1. CBH* April 12, 2017 at 12:27 pm

               Browser thank you for your reply. I love how Ask A Manager allows people to express their opinions especially when it’s an angle I never thought of. I haven’t read through all the comments yet but from the few I browsed I was beginning to think I was the only one looking the scenario from this point of view. Thank you for being open to what I said.
            2. Late To The Party* April 12, 2017 at 2:04 pm

               Yes, thank you. Even if Sally had not told the hotel, it’s entirely possible that some other guest could have called the front desk after a half an hour or so of wondering “What the hell is that smell?!?” (not that I would ever have personal knowledge of that sort of situation.)
               And seeing these oral lack of good judgment on the part of the hehe boss, I have to wonder how good he is at his job in general. Sally seems to have had zero respect for or loyalty to either him or her team-mate – maybe because she is just that toxic, or maybe because boss brings the same level of professionalism and character judgment that he brought to this conference to the rest of his work.
               1. Late To The Party* April 12, 2017 at 2:10 pm

                  And by “oral” I of course meant “total”.
         2. tigerlily* April 12, 2017 at 12:36 pm

            Well, she did do something wrong by leaving the conference she was supposed to be attending. I think many people have stated that as the tipping point for thinking her behavior too extreme. Had she just alerted the hotel, that would have been one thing. But instead, she abandoned her own work duties.
            1. CBH* April 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm

               I agree that she should not have left so abruptly, at least without discussing with the OP first. I’m sure OP would not have cared if he got a cell phone call at 11pm regarding this issue. But again, she left because she was put in an awkward situation that never should have occurred in the first place on a business trip. Surely the company did not send her to the conference with the expectation of sharing a joint with her boss during downtime. That is an illegal activity in this State. In an indirect round about way, if someone didn’t have the whole story staying could have been guilt by association with other authority figures (OP, the company, the law). I totally agree with you to the extent that she should not have decided on her own to leave the conference/ her responsibilities but I think this was (albiet extreme) extenuating circumstances.
      2. Tuxedo Cat* April 12, 2017 at 2:30 pm

         I find that really interesting that you might feel more pressure to take an illegal substance than drink.

         I’ve socially been in both situations and been in the drinking situation only for work. I honestly feel more pressure to drink than to smoke, and I imagine the same would be true for work. I do drink and regularly, but I also sometimes opt not to. It turns into questions, even with work.
         1. The IT Manager* April 12, 2017 at 2:53 pm

            I have lots of experience declining alcohol. I have about 2 lifetime experiences turning down illegal drugs in social situations (never been offered at work). And the first time, I only realized after the fact that you don’t pass around a cigarette.

            So, this doesn’t make sense, but there’s a whole lot of social pressure, fitting in, “I’m cool”, being invite to join a circle where you have (blackmail) knowledge of each others illegal activity, etc, that I find with a pot that doesn’t apply to alcohol.
            1. brighidg* April 12, 2017 at 4:40 pm

               Moving beyond high school thinking is an option too.
   10. kittymommy* April 12, 2017 at 11:22 am

       Yeah I think this is where I’m at too. While I disagree with marijuana being a criminal activity, apparently it is in this state. I do think how the business has handled past instances of employees arrest, if it’s happened. I know at mine it wouldn’t necessarily mean immediate dismissal.
       1. Amy* April 12, 2017 at 12:40 pm

          I wonder if the company does pre-hire or random drug screenings, or if Sally thinks they do, and if that played into her reaction. I have worked at places that did pre-hire screenings and said they did random ones but never actually did.
          1. SQL Coder Cat* April 12, 2017 at 1:58 pm

             Yes, this. I work in a state that has legalized marijuana usage and “at will” employment. At HorridOldJob, a very large company, HR went through on 4/20 and fired a bunch of people- for smelling like marijuana. No drug tests were given- if they thought you had the odor, you were out. Obviously our OP doesn’t support such a stance (for the record, I think it was insane) but are there any company policies that might have made Sally think the company would react very poorly to this? I know that the possibility of losing my job would make me more prone to overreaction. I am way more concerned about the manager offering marijuana to someone that he obviously didn’t know well enough to know how they’d react, in a state that hasn’t legalized it. That shows exceedingly poor judgment, and THAT decision is what triggered this whole mess.
   11. MuseumChick* April 12, 2017 at 11:24 am

       I have to agree, very poor judgement, to the point where firing would seriously cross my mind. As for Sally….sigh. I don’t know, I wouldn’t particularly want to keep her on my team.
   12. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 11:44 am

       Agreed. At this point, the default should be to fire the manager absent some overwhelming reason to the contrary. He should not have brought weed on a work trip, but if he was going to, he should not have then invited his coworkers/reports to smoke with him. Especially in a state where marijuana is still criminalized. At almost every decision point, he lacked good judgment/discretion.

       But I’m struggling because I think Sally’s reaction/conduct is also way beyond the pale. Right now she sounds exceedingly self-righteous because of her beliefs about marijuana. But I would argue that in 90% of situations, it’s inappropriate to “report” your coworkers in this way, ensure the police are called, and then take a Greyhound back home because you’re upset. Many things are illegal, but there are crimes that are more/less serious than others, and all things considered, despite being listed as a Schedule A drug, marijuana possession/use in small amounts by non-narco-traffickers does not merit Sally’s reaction.

       I’m curious about how Sally’s conduct has impacted her interactions/relationships with other staff. Did others hear about this, and how did they react? I ask because I come from a region where Sally’s reaction would have likely alienated her from the rest of staff. That said, I’ve also lived in places where marijuana is seen (and treated) as equivalent to heroin and other hard drugs, so I imagine there are also places where many folks agree with Sally’s zero-tolerance approach.

       FWIW, I’ve worked at an organization that fired someone for transporting recreational weed from a state that had legalized medical marijuana to a state where it was still unlawful. Although it demonstrates not great judgment, the employee did it at the request of colleagues including her boss and grandboss, who partaked in said weed when they all got to the out-of-state conference they were going to—apparently this was something they did every year at this conference, and it was that employee’s “turn” to provide the supply. No one else was reprimanded for it, and the entire incident had a terrible effect on staff: Folks who didn’t attend the conference were upset someone had brought weed to a professional event, they were upset that the “conspirators” and managers received no discipline, and they were upset at what they saw as a pretextual firing.
       1. Kathleen Adams* April 12, 2017 at 11:56 am

          Wow. That situation is messed up. I have a LOT more sympathy for the weed transporter than I do for the boss and grandboss. Putting a junior in that position identifies them to me as big ol’ entitled jerks, and they should definitely have been fired.
          1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:33 pm

             Yes, it was awful and really really messed up. The truth is they wanted to terminate the person for performance reasons, but instead of behaving like reasonable managers, they concocted something so they wouldn’t have to pay unemployment or justify their prior failure to use progressive discipline to counsel the employee re: performance.
             1. Kathleen Adams* April 12, 2017 at 1:10 pm

                Man. You know, my workplace isn’t perfect, but every now and then I am reminded that I could do far, far, far worse.
       2. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 1:21 pm

          At almost every decision point, he lacked good judgment/discretion.

          A few letters back, can’t remember the context, someone mentioned the idea of a specific problem requiring three different slip ups. This problem required him to make a whole string of really poor decisions–if he had stopped himself at any of the prior points (purchasing illegal drug, bringing on work trip, using in hotel where the smell would alert other people, and so on) then he never would have gotten to “suggest my subordinate mellow out and break the law so she could fit in with the gang, and she flipped out, who could possibly have seen that coming?”
       3. Nobody Here By That Name* April 12, 2017 at 2:11 pm

          I’d also add “Should not have put himself in a situation where, once others got involved, it was that freaking easy to get caught.” I mean I get by definition he wasn’t thinking clearly but dude, c’mon. If you’re lacking common sense judgement here, how badly are you screwing up in other areas of your work life?

          In a roundabout way your story reminds me of a friend of mine, who had an issue with a coworker who brought pot along on a cross-country work trip. It wasn’t so much the pot smoking that bothered her, but that the coworker took the risk of bringing the pot on the plane when they were landing in San Francisco. As my friend put it, “Carrying coals to Newcastle much?”
   13. Czhorat* April 12, 2017 at 11:46 am

       I’m in favor of legalization as well, but agree that *it is not currently legal.*
       As abhorrent as I personally find Sally’s behaviour, using an illegal drug at a professional event can and likely should be cause for immediate termination. Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars. If the manager in question is NOT fired, they need to at least be formally reprimanded for the extreme poor judgement in not only using an illegal substance but offering it to a colleague. For those keeping score at home, we’ve taken the step from “possession” to “possession and sale” if we want to be technical.

       And Sally does not get a transfer because her feelings are hurt. SHE gets a formal reprimand as well, for running out of a professional event at which her present was expected. If the others somehow keep their jobs, Sally does not get a transfer. If she wants to quit, you’re quite honestly better off without her.
       1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:00 pm

          If we’re being technical, it’s usually framed as “possession with intent to distribute,” as opposed to “possession with intent to sell”—you don’t have to exchange money or barter for it to trigger federal liability.

          But yes, offering it to a subordinate takes you from “simple possession” (which isn’t necessarily illegal under federal law, although it is in some states) to a federal crime. So there’s that.
       2. WerkingIt* April 12, 2017 at 12:17 pm

          I mean, I wouldn’t block her from an otherwise legit transfer. People transfer all the time for lots of reasons.
       3. Whats In A Name* April 12, 2017 at 2:21 pm

          The only thing I would say about the transfer is that it’s probably an all around awkward situation and everyone is probably uncomfortable. If a transfer makes sense and everyone is keeping their jobs why not just let it happen. People transfer within companies anyways.
          1. Gadfly* April 12, 2017 at 4:37 pm

             I don’t think keeping them together, ESPECIALLY with one of the arrested parting being in anything like a supervisory role, is a good idea. Instead it sounds like the start of all sorts of new drama.
             1. Gadfly* April 12, 2017 at 4:38 pm

                Parties not parting.
   14. Parenthetically* April 12, 2017 at 11:48 am

       Seriously this. Sally has her own issues, but regardless of whether or not you agree with the law (and I do not, for the record), they still BROKE THE LAW. The idea of a manager saying, “Hey, let’s break this dumb law together,” to members of staff/reports just really rubs me the wrong way. It’s enough for him to have the bad judgment to smoke weed in a hotel presumably paid for by his employer on a work trip, but to then invite or god forbid pressure his reports to do the same? That merits more than a reprimand, IMO.
   15. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)* April 12, 2017 at 12:04 pm

       I agree. Sally’s behavior was problematic and needs addressing, but the supervisor here seems like much the larger problem. I don’t know if I would fire the supervisor, but I would have a very serious and uncomfortable conversation with her, let her know that nothing like that can ever happen again, and would be on the lookout for other potential abuses of power dynamics and/or errors in judgment.

       As for Sally, I would similarly be attentive to whether she frequently escalates drama unnecessarily, but if she was a good employee — someone I wanted to keep — I would transfer her and let that be the end of it.
   16. SeptemberGrrl* April 12, 2017 at 12:07 pm

       Abso-effing-lutely. I am stunned that this wasn’t Alison’s reaction.
       1. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 12:12 pm

          Don’t be stunned. I’m not going to advocate that our antiquated marijuana laws ruin any more lives than they’ve already ruined.
          1. SeptemberGrrl* April 12, 2017 at 12:22 pm

             The idea that employees can pick and choose which laws to obey, that’s a real head-scratcher for me. I can see you feel strongly about legalization; I’m for it as well, but until it is, I would expect my employees to follow the law. I am stunned at how poor this advice but it’s ok, I’ll live :)
             1. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm

                But of course they can. Think of all the other things that have been illegal throughout history, like interracial marriage. Would you advocate firing someone for that during that time?
                1. SeptemberGrrl* April 12, 2017 at 12:33 pm

                   I value your advice on most things: I just think you’re off-base on this. An apt analogy would need to take into account a manager asking an employee to partake in an illegal activity in a hotel room, on a work trip.
                2. Em* April 12, 2017 at 12:48 pm

                   I would if they got married while on company time, which I think is a fairer analogy to what is happening here.
                   1. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 12:51 pm

                      You would advocate firing people who got married outside of work hours while they were on a company business trip if it were an interracial marriage in a place and time that prohibited that?!

                      Okay, yes, we see this very differently.
                3. Jesmlet* April 12, 2017 at 12:54 pm

                   I have never appreciated you more than right here in this moment.
             2. Jubilance* April 12, 2017 at 12:30 pm

                Actually its a very American thing to protest unjust laws by ignoring them. And lots of things were illegal but have changed thanks to protests – think Jim Crow laws. Simply being “the law” doesn’t mean that it actually makes sense & should be followed.
                1. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 12:37 pm

                   Thank. You. All of the “the law is the law” comments on here are making me want to tear my hair out.
                2. MegaMoose, Esq* April 12, 2017 at 12:56 pm

                   Not to mention that just because something is the law, doesn’t mean it’s enforced. We pick and choose which laws to focus on as a society all the time. Our criminal justice system is far more complex than just “do something illegal = get punished.”
             3. KC* April 12, 2017 at 3:41 pm

                I haven’t seen this point brought up, which is that even in states where marijuana is legalized for recreational use, companies can and do fire employees who test positive for it. I’m pro legalization and bring up this point because even if it was legal, the company could still have grounds to take action since the federal govt still classifies is as as illegal schedule 1 substance (the most dangerous class).
          2. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 12:42 pm

             But – honestly, I would feel the same about a manager casually offering me an illegal drug, even pot, the way I would feel about a manager offering me sex (or a date.) It wouldn’t matter how they did it, it would still come across as incredibly gross, inappropriate, and pressured.

             There would be no way for me to say no without freaking out about consequences, assumptions he makes about me, and the fact that I had just been asked to partake in something that has no place in the workplace by my manager.

             Totally fine for the manager to ask in private life to a non-subordinate (just like pot). Totally inappropriate and a wild abuse of power in his work life.
   17. mcr-red* April 12, 2017 at 12:31 pm

       Agree 100 percent with all of this.
3. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 11:06 am

   What the manager did was obviously inappropriate, but holy hell Sally. Getting your coworkers arrested over something so minor and fleeing the city is really bizarre and excessive.
   1. ZSD* April 12, 2017 at 11:14 am

      I agree that fleeing the city is excessive. I’m less supportive of referring to this as “something so minor.”
      1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 11:24 am

         I disagree. This is something that a huge number of Americans partake in and the roots of it’s illegality do not lie in logic or science. The fact that the manager was partaking in something illegal on a work trip was bad judgement, but Sally’s response to something that so many people do was ridiculous. Reacting that way to something illegal is one thing – she could’ve told HR or OP when she got back that she felt it was inappropriate. That’s different. But she took it to a whole different level.
      2. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:25 am

         I’m laughing at the term “fleeing the city.” It’s accurate and really shows the drama.

         ZOMG A BURNING JOING EVERYONE EVACUATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

         For the record, I don’t smoke weed or anything else, but I’m totally supportive if other people want to.

         I do also think the manager showed terrible judgement but should not have gone to jail.
         1. AMG* April 12, 2017 at 11:26 am

            lol
         2. Kj* April 12, 2017 at 12:18 pm

            Agree! Offering Sally weed was bad judgement by the manager and Sally should have reported that to HR, but abandoning her job responsibilities because she was offered a joint is nuts.
         3. Czhorat* April 12, 2017 at 1:44 pm

            It reminds me of those anti-drug PSAs we got when I was in grade school; marijuana was not only a “gateway drug” leading directly to heroin, but there were scores of “pushers” on every street corner trying SO hard to pressure you into trying drugs.

            In the real world, drugs are expensive. Someone might offer to share, but they’ll take no for an answer; there isn’t a need to panic.
      3. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 11:30 am

         Are we talking about how bad the act itself is, or how bad doing something against the law is? Smoking marijuana itself is pretty minor irrespective of the law; in states where it’s legal, it’s certainly not a big deal. The only reason it’s risky is because it can still get you arrested in most places.
         1. EddieSherbert* April 12, 2017 at 11:33 am

            Let’s assume they meant doing something illegal in general. Debating the laws isn’t going to help the OP :)
            1. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 11:57 am

               Except that there are loads and loads of laws that ethical people feel are worth breaking, and throughout history, some of our most important social change has come from people being willing to do that.

               You can argue whether pot is one of those, but I take real issue with some of the comments here that imply that breaking the law is inherently an obvious moral offense across the board. It’s not.
               1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:01 pm

                  Seconded. There’s plenty of laws where the only ethical course of action is breaking them, in fact.
                  1. Anoname* April 12, 2017 at 12:18 pm

                     But if you break them, you ‘d better be prepared to take the consequences.
                     1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:23 pm

                        Agreed. Civil disobedience does not mean freedom from criminal liability or otherwise.
                     2. SeptemberGrrl* April 12, 2017 at 12:36 pm

                        Yep.
                     3. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 12:52 pm

                        Sure. But that’s a different thing than talking about it as if it’s inherently a bad thing.
                  2. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 12:29 pm

                     I agree… but you can only make that choice for yourself. As someone who has practiced civil disobedience, it is never ethical to make that choice for another.
                  3. paul* April 12, 2017 at 12:44 pm

                     But this isn’t remotely one of those cases.

                     There’s no morally imperative reason to partake in pot. And civil disobedience is public, and people engage in it *knowing* they’re publicly breaking the law and taking that risk. It’s a middle finger that dares enforcement. It’s not toking up in private.

                     As much as I’m pro-legalization (and if it happens I fully intend to try a ton of edibles) bringing these arguments up here is just…irrelevant. This wasn’t civil disobedience, not even close, so the argument that it may be ethically right to break laws doesn’t really apply here.
                     1. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 12:53 pm

                        By that argument, there’s no moral imperative to read banned boooks either. But I’d argue that there’s a moral imperative not to feel bound by laws that tell you what you can and can’t do with your own body and brain.
                     2. Evan Þ* April 12, 2017 at 1:11 pm

                        Obtaining it for your sick relative or friend who needs it to treat their illness?

                        Of course, that’s completely different from what was happening here, and you definitely wouldn’t need to involve your subordinates at work in that.
                     3. paul* April 12, 2017 at 1:15 pm

                        Say the US banned books: let’s say Huckleberry Finn. Possession of it–or simply being in a group where someone has it–carries significant legal penalties.

                        your manager invites you to a hotel room for a reading of Huckleberry Finn. Which, hey, could seriously mess up your life if you got caught.

                        You’d seriously argue the employee should get in more trouble with the company than the manager?

                        The manager invited her to do something that could–depending on jurisdiction and the way cops/prosecutors felt that day–get her in deep legal trouble and she flipped out.

                        Yeah she didn’t handle it well–particularly leaving the whole damn conference–but the manager here is way more in the wrong. And the fact that our drug laws are dumb as hell doesn’t change that.

                        We also don’t know how much pressure was applied; it’s easy to assume she took “here, take a puff” as high pressure sales pitch…….but the manager’s judgement is clearly borked beyond belief, so I can also see him actually getting pushy about it too.
                     4. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 1:43 pm

                        @Alison: I’d say there’s also a moral imperative to not pressure your employees into practicing civil disobedience (if it’s not an inherent part of their job) by breaking the law.

                        And any request from your manager comes with pressure.
                     5. mcr-red* April 12, 2017 at 1:45 pm

                        I’m at the same place Paul is – whether its pot, meth, Huckleberry Finn or serving drinks to a minor, I’m surprised that’s its seemingly OK for a manager to take part in an illegal activity that could lead to jail time and encourage a direct report to do so.

                        Had I been in Sally’s position and I didn’t want to imbibe, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t tell the hotel, I wouldn’t tell the cops, I wouldn’t tell our boss. I wouldn’t care.
                     6. JB (not in Houston)* April 12, 2017 at 3:01 pm

                        @TL–exactly
               2. Mt* April 12, 2017 at 12:02 pm

                  There is also a differnce between whats moral offence in public and what is a moral offence in a work environment.
               3. Agnodike* April 12, 2017 at 12:03 pm

                  Not only that, but people break laws literally all the time, often at the expense of others’ safety, and the social response to that is far from consistent. Driving 40 kph over the speed limit? Illegal and dangerous, but doesn’t expose offenders to the same censure or to the same legal penalties as smoking marijuana.
               4. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 12:09 pm

                  I think that the major sticking point here is that this happened on a work trip, with a direct report. I, personally, think that our country’s laws regarding drugs, alcohol, and sex work need to be updated. I would applaud someone for taking a stand trying to effect change (on their own time). A work event is not the right place for that. And especially do not try to pull in your subordinate into your effort, which could have negative ramifications for them.
                  1. SeptemberGrrl* April 12, 2017 at 12:17 pm

                     I am flummoxed by the idea of “Well I don’t like this law so breaking it on a work trip and encouraging my staff to do the same is no biggie”. If I were Sally, I’d bring this to HR, I don’t think it would end well for the OP if Sally did that. And I’m FOR legalization; I’m just also for personal responsibility. If I’m speeding and I get stopped and ticketed, that’s on me. If I’m smoking pot where it’s not legal to do so and get caught, that’s also on me.
                     1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:35 pm

                        No one is saying it’s no biggie. Most people agree that the manager did something stupid. But the response was over the top and getting external authorities involved for something so innocuous is extreme.
               5. Meghan* April 12, 2017 at 12:21 pm

                  Is a work trip the right place for civil disobedience?
               6. EddieSherbert* April 12, 2017 at 12:23 pm

                  I absolutely GET that “broke the law” does not means the person is awful no matter what they did, but with the added layer of “breaking the law during a work trip”… it was a dumb thing to do.

                  I personally don’t care if others smoke pot. And yes, there are a lot of laws out there that really need to be changed, and people need to help make those changes happen… but a work event isn’t the time or place.
                  1. EddieSherbert* April 12, 2017 at 12:26 pm

                     And I still don’t think debating whether or not it should be illegal is going to help the OP. Sorry (genuinely meant, not sarcastically. Obviously a lot of people disagree with me, and that’s fine. but I just don’t see how that’s going to help OP’s decision on what to do with their employees).
               7. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 12:27 pm

                  I don’t think the supervisor breaking the law is a moral offense, but him asking (with the obvious power differential that implies) his subordinate to break the law, especially a law which has been known for its positively draconian enforcement, is.

                  I’m not sure the supervisor should be fired for this (and I think the question should be handled regardless of Sally’s reaction, which was not great), but it definitely merits more than a slap on the wrist.
               8. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 12:36 pm

                  There’s a huge difference between deliberately and consciously breaking an immoral law, and breaking a law that isn’t obviously immoral for fun and your own pleasure. The latter doesn’t make you a hero. It doesn’t necessarily make you a villain either, but people don’t get to choose what laws they think are important or not on a daily basis.
                  1. Managed Chaos* April 12, 2017 at 4:38 pm

                     Yes.
               9. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 12:43 pm

                  Breaking the law is not an inherently obvious moral offense.

                  Breaking the law while representing your company on a work trip is a serious problem.
                  1. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 1:05 pm

                     I’m not completely sure I agree with the second statement either — I think it’s up to the company to decide whether it cares if you break a law while “representing” them, and clearly OP’s company Does Not Care.

                     I think the problem is asking others to partake in your illegal behavior.
               10. bearing* April 12, 2017 at 2:45 pm

                   Maybe on your own property or in your own home or in the home of another party who consents.

                   It’s absolutely not morally right to do so on the property of the hotel, especially if the language in the room contract explicitly says “no smoking,” “no drugs,” or “no illegal activity.”
               11. Troutwaxer* April 12, 2017 at 3:01 pm

                   I think the issue is: Do you want your employees breaking an unjust law during a work trip? Or should they only break such laws on their own time? I think that breaking an unjust law on their own time is fine, I might even encourage it, even as someone’s manager, under some circumstances. But I wouldn’t want employees breaking an unjust law on a work trip because it could cause problems for the company.

                   And I do agree with you on the subject of marijuana laws. They are exceedingly dysfunctional do far more harm than good. But I still don’t think the manager used good judgement. I’m not sure its a firing issue, but it did show very poor judgement.
            2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:03 pm

               I don’t think it refers to doing something illegal in general. I break the law about 20 times a day, but it doesn’t merit firing me because the kinds of things I do are low-level infractions with low-level risk to myself and others. How a person perceives a specific behavior, and how that behavior is treated under the laws of that state, matter for understanding whether a response/reaction is reasonable.
               1. Casuan* April 12, 2017 at 3:27 pm

                  Often I don’t break the law with even minor infractions for the simple reason that with my luck I’d get caught. I don’t want to get caught because I simply don’t want to deal with the consequences, even if the result is just a small fine.
                  That said, probably I break the law more than I realise!
   2. Not Karen* April 12, 2017 at 11:15 am

      “Something so minor”? Clearly Sally doesn’t think so. Let’s not judge other people’s reactions based on our own feelings.
      1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 11:18 am

         Look, unless the manager were seriously pressuring her, this IS minor. She could’ve left the room and gone back to her hotel room to watch tv but instead she got the authorities involved by telling the hotel. And yes, Sally clearly didn’t think it was minor because she took a greyhound out of the city last night. Unless there’s a lot more to this story, this is a huge huge overreaction.
      2. Vin Packer* April 12, 2017 at 11:19 am

         ….why?
      3. Lablizard* April 12, 2017 at 11:19 am

         I think she should have called back to the office before leaving the conference. After all, with the other company representatives arrested, there would be no one to cover the conference if she left. Presumably the company sent them there for a business purpose that won’t be fulfilled if she bailed
         1. Kj* April 12, 2017 at 12:16 pm

            Yes, that is my biggest problem with Sally and why I think she is being a drama llama. If she had reported the smoking to the hotel, then went back to her room and attended the conference the next day, that would have been acceptable. More acceptable would have been to call HR about the smoking but not tell the hotel (not sure why the hotel needed to be informed, other than an attempt to create drama/get co-workers/managers in trouble with law) and then attend the conference the next day.

            Her leaving the city was extreme. She presumably had her own room and didn’t need to be exposed to the devil weed except to say “no thanks.” I think she should have reported to HR (manager smoking weed with employees shows poor judgement at best), but not the the hotel and certainly she should have done her job and attended the conference.
      4. AMG* April 12, 2017 at 11:24 am

         But isn’t that exactly the intent of AAM? To get a judgment call from Alison and the commenters? Sally is entitled to her opinion and so is everyone else. I think the various perspectives help people think through the issue.
         1. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 11:32 am

            Yes, exactly.
      5. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 11:33 am

         I think it’s important, though, because the scale of Sally’s reaction relative to how bad the offense was matters in how the OP handles the situation.
         1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 11:53 am

            Yes, this. If we see this as akin to jaywalking, then Sally’s reaction is bizarrely disproportionate. But if you’re in a law and order part of the world where marijuana is talked about and treated (under law) in the same way as cocaine or heroin, then her reaction is still disproportionate, but less so.

            So people’s differing perceptions are helpful to understanding the range of “reasonable” reactions. You don’t have to agree with each person’s perception regarding severity/illegality, and debating the seriousness with one another isn’t useful. I think what’s useful is providing OP with a spectrum of reactions so that OP can gauge whether Sally falls within that spectrum.
      6. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:01 pm

         I’ll judge her reaction all I want. It’s ridiculous.
         1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:04 pm

            But it doesn’t help OP.
            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:07 pm

               It doesn’t not help, does it?
               1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:25 pm

                  If by “doesn’t not” you mean “is neutral or could be helpful,” then imo, no.
      7. Noah* April 12, 2017 at 4:01 pm

         “Let’s not judge other people’s reactions based on our own feelings.”

         That doesn’t seem like a very good standard. Let’s say Horace catches his wife cheating. He believes it is okay to kill her for cheating. Horace kills her. That’s okay, right? Because we shouldn’t judge other people’s reactions based on our own feelings.
   3. MissGirl* April 12, 2017 at 11:37 am

      She didn’t call the police; the hotel did. She may not have realized the consequences of doing that. However, the level of idiocy this manager displayed on a work trip is considerable. He most certainly did not appreciate the consequences of that. Most hotels don’t even allow you to smoke a cigarette in a room.
      1. dMill* April 12, 2017 at 11:50 am

         This is a great point. Sally may not have intended to involve police.
         1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 11:52 am

            She intended to involve SOMEONE with authority to put a stop to a situation that would’ve been easily resolved by her leaving the room.
            1. Arduino* April 12, 2017 at 11:56 am

               Or she was being curteous to the hotel so they could address a situation on their premises
               1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:01 pm

                  And then she fled the city on a bus in the middle of the night because she thought her manager was being discourteous to the hotel? Would she have done the same if the manager left his room a mess? Because that’s about equally discourteous. That’s an extremely generous reading of the situation that I don’t find remotely credible given the photo, the midnight bus and the ultimatum.
               2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:03 pm

                  That’s not a courtesy. No hotel wants the cops descending on them late at night, and no hotel actually gives a crap what you’re doing in their rooms as long as nothing is getting destroyed or thrown out the window. The “situation” didn’t need to be addressed, and would have victimized exactly nobody if allowed to run its course.
                  1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:06 pm

                     Well put.
                  2. Marvel* April 12, 2017 at 12:22 pm

                     Uh, the hotel called the cops. Clearly they DID want the cops to show up. And I tell you with 100% certainty that most hotels DO care what you do in your room if it involves smoking–that smell is hard to get out of upholstery.
                  3. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 12:25 pm

                     Hotel could’ve knocked on their doors and told them to cut the crap. Instead, they called the cops. Clearly, the hotel cared a great deal.
                     1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:31 pm

                        As I noted above, I worked for a hotel when I was 17, and policy stated that all reports of drug use triggered an automatic call to the cops.
                     2. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 1:47 pm

                        Policy in my lab is always wear labcoats in TC and gloves anytime you’re at the bench. I handle that policy with discretion, as do most of my coworkers.

                        A 17 yr old might not feel the same way, but it’s reading a lot in to say the hospital employee had no choice in how they handle it.
                     3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:51 pm

                        I didn’t say there was no choice, but a lot of people in unskilled service positions don’t really feel themselves to be in a position to gamble with their jobs when it comes to stated policy. I sure didn’t.
               3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:05 pm

                  Naw, this isn’t courtesy. I’m pretty sure she understood the police would be called or that her coworkers would be “evicted” from the hotel.
                  1. Marvel* April 12, 2017 at 12:23 pm

                     If someone was smoking in a non-smoking room, no matter the substance, I would probably tell the hotel out of courtesy myself. That shit is hard to get out of upholstery.
                  2. Browser* April 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm

                     That’s a pretty big assumption to make.
                     1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:26 pm

                        It’s really not a big assumption, especially if you read Hotelier’s post.
                     2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:28 pm

                        Correction: ByLetters’s posts.
            2. Electric Hedgehog* April 12, 2017 at 1:35 pm

               Possibly she was housed next door to the manager’s room and wanted to be shifted to somewhere she didn’t have to smell the weed?
         2. brighidg* April 12, 2017 at 4:44 pm

            I would give her the benefit of the doubt on that if it weren’t for her pushing to get them fired.
      2. Czhorat* April 12, 2017 at 11:50 am

         There was no reason to call the hotel. She could have said “no thank you”, gone back to her room, and forgotten about it.

         Or she could have reported it to HR if she felt THAT strongly about it. There’s really no reason for her to do so.
         1. Meg Murry* April 12, 2017 at 12:08 pm

            The only reason I could see that where it would be appropriate to involve the hotel was if she was in an adjacent room and could smell it and it bothered her – and even then, to report it as “it smells like someone is smoking something here in this non-smoking section of the hotel and it is bothering me”, not “my colleagues next door in room 420 are smoking pot, come get them!”

            I’m guessing based on the fact that Sally took pictures that she has admitted to being the one who turned them in to the hotel, yes? Because if not, I could absolutely see myself panicking if I was in Sally’s shoes and *wasn’t* the one who turned them in, but my coworkers assumed I was.
            1. Oryx* April 12, 2017 at 12:46 pm

               “room 420”

               I see what you did there.
         2. Kimberlee, Esq* April 12, 2017 at 12:14 pm

            Yes. Deciding to report your co-workers to a higher level manager or HR is the way you resolve this if you feel so betrayed by your workplace that you can’t even talk to your colleagues directly about it. Narcing to the HOTEL is not. When you report illegal activity, you’re doing so because you want someone to do something about it. If she simply didn’t want them to smoke on a work trip, she could have said “I can’t believe you’re doing that here. If you don’t stop, I’m going to report it to the hotel. Come on, guys.”
      3. Bwmn* April 12, 2017 at 11:58 am

         The hotel only called the police because Sally reported it. Most US states also have variations on open container laws. Instead of smoking a joint in a hotel room, had the manager and coworker been drinking glasses of wine/beer/spirits on a bench outside the hotel (but on public property) – Sally could have similarly gone to the hotel to report a “crime”. And while the act would have (likely) been illegal, the manager would have presumed not being caught engaging in “illegal” activity.

         In general, calling the police on your coworkers – provided that they are not threatening their own safety or the safety of others – there creates such a potential for unwanted attention and publicity. I understand that someone speeding or smoking marijuana may feel like a serious danger for some….but I do think that this is where Sally does need a larger sit down on why she felt that at risk.
         1. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 12:23 pm

            But if they had been drinking outside, the hotel most likely would’ve gone out and reminded them of open container laws. “Sirs, I’m sorry, but you can’t have an open drink outside. Would you mind taking that to your room or the bar?”
            Legally, smoking pot is considered quite different than drinking and that’s really important to this *work* situation.
            1. Bwmn* April 12, 2017 at 4:35 pm

               From a legality standpoint, both are illegal. And the hotel could have also said, “pot is illegal in the state of X, and we request guests not smoke or else we will have to call the police”. Speeding is illegal. And in many jurisdictions the extent to how much you’re speeding is reflected in that. 10 mph is evaluated as different from 15 or 25 mph over the speed limit. And when you take into consideration how speed limits can fluctuate, whether someone feels unsafe in a car going 10/15/25 mph over the speed limit will vary. And while someone may not prefer being in a car going 20 mph over the speed limit, it is still a different decision making process to than to call the police on a coworker during a work trip.

               People’s judgement of law breaking will vary. Whether it’s jaywalking, texting while driving, open container laws, smoking pot – what’s “considered” concerning enough to escalate to calling the police will vary. But I think it will always be disruptive and potentially dramatic. And to be discerning enough to determine genuine safety concern worth the disruption or not is as much of being a professional and being considerate of the law.
      4. Jessica* April 12, 2017 at 12:02 pm

         I imagine there could be some hefty penalties for a hotel that allowed patrons to smoke pot on the premises. I define “allowing” in this instance as “knew it was happening but didn’t do anything”. Their own corporate policy may well have required the hotel employees to call the cops once they knew illegal activity was occurring.

         Whether or not Sally overreacted by telling on them and leaving the conference early. I’d say that that’s why a person shouldn’t be stupid enough to a) bring pot on a work trip b) to a state where it’s illegal, to then c) smoke it somewhere that incurs liability for the owner of the property, and d) invite your subordinates to participate–during a work function, which a work trip necessarily is.

         Fire the idiot supervisor with the joint. Anyone who lacks judgment to such a degree as to bring illegal substances to a work event doesn’t deserve to keep his job. Tell Sally that you understand her decision, but unless she has some vital skill, I probably wouldn’t fight too hard to keep her. However, it might be worth having a conversation about how her objections have been noted, next time she should follow XYZ protocol if she finds herself in that situation again, and it’s time for her to get back to work now.
         1. Gadfly* April 12, 2017 at 3:52 pm

            I know in my home state, a person could lose their home if a roommate/renter/kid is found to smoke there and things are triggered just right (I’m not remembering exact amounts.) I would guess that businesses like hotels could have similar concerns.
   4. Arduino* April 12, 2017 at 11:54 am

      I find it interesting that everyone is assuming Sally meant to have them arrested and fled cause omg pot. The hotel called the authorities not Sally. I can see new to workforce me maybe panicking after my boss got arrested and leaving the conferance.
      1. Roscoe* April 12, 2017 at 12:19 pm

         Panicking after “My boss got arrested because I reported them”

         FTFY
         1. Browser* April 12, 2017 at 12:25 pm

            No, “My boss got arrested because he was smoking pot.”

            Put the responsibility where it belongs. The person who committed an illegal act is solely to blame, not the witness.
            1. Roscoe* April 12, 2017 at 12:52 pm

               It was more than a witness, it was a reporter.

               If the hotel smelled it, and the cops arrested them, I wouldn’t be blaming Sally. She reported them to get them in trouble. Period
               1. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 1:10 pm

                  Pretty much this. I know Alison has had discussions about adults not being able to tattle, but I think in this particular case, that’s exactly what happened. Sally had no motivation to report it to anyone other than her Big Boss unless she was specifically aiming to get people in trouble.
                  1. Gadfly* April 12, 2017 at 3:48 pm

                     Other than the whole risk of being tarred with the same brush. I mean seriously, most hotels you can tell if you neighbor farts, let alone is smoking pot. It isn’t a super secret activity ONLY those invited to join in know about. The manager was playing Russian roulette here even before the bad judgement call of asking a coworker to join in that he clearly didn’t know well/assuming everyone would be fine with things.
      2. ByLetters* April 12, 2017 at 1:39 pm

         As a hotelier, I honestly can’t picture the hotel willingly calling the authorities over what — to the hotel — is TRULY a trivial issue. What you do in your room is your business. The hotel’s only involvement would be to charge a smoking fee afterward. The only reason they’d have gotten anyone else involved would have been at Sally’s loud and public insistence that they do so.
         1. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 1:49 pm

            Or the hotel might’ve knocked on the door and asked them to stop, but they didn’t, or the hotel could’ve already been on thin ice with local authorities or had a zero tolerance policy or, hey, maybe the hotel just didn’t feel like putting up with pot that day.
            1. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 3:50 pm

               Exactly — I imagine most hotels would have a 2 or 3 strikes and you’re out policy. It’s weird that they would call the cops immediately instead of giving a verbal warning. My apartment building for some reason has certain apartments that they rent out as short- and long-term hotel rooms, and guests often smoke in the one on my floor (I think we get a lot of international business travelers/tourists from places where smoking indoors is NBD… or we host a lot of assholes, but I think it’s the former, usually). I just tell our concierge downstairs and they come up and tell them to stop, and it doesn’t happen again. I feel like you’d have to be in a REALLY conservative place to skip straight to calling the police, even if they’re technically smoking something illegal.

               Really the main lesson I’ve learned is you should eat edibles or vape in your room, don’t smoke. And don’t hang out with Sallys.
               1. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 4:33 pm

                  Speculation–the hotel gave a verbal warning, and Manager then escalated to the extent that the hotel finally called the police.

                  Supporting evidence:
                  • Behavior has to be pretty egregious before most hotels decide it would be best to call the police.
                  • In follow-up (under “Letter Writer”) several employees threatened to quit over how Sally was treated, and two followed through. Suggesting that which one is the chill dude/dudette people want to hang with and which is the drama-loving asshole may be more complex than appears in the letter.
         2. Mousemaker* April 12, 2017 at 2:35 pm

            I once worked somewhere where there was a work retreat every year that involved a lot of drinking and partying (this is in academia so there are much laxer rules about retreat behavior). As an employee and not a student, I didn’t participate beyond the normal socializing, but some people decided to go and toke up in one of the rooms after dancing. They set off the smoke alarms, the firefighters had to be called, and the hotel got really upset and disinvited us from returning the next year (as I understand), so it can be a big deal. The police were not called (marijuana was decriminalized at the time) but it was still a substantial issue for the hotel.
      3. irritable vowel* April 12, 2017 at 2:32 pm

         Yeah, I wondered this as well. Did Sally flee on the Greyhound because she was so horrified about the pot smoking, or was it because she realized she had made a huge error in judgment when the cops showed up and arrested her coworkers and didn’t want to still be on the premises/at the conference to face them afterwards? I know it doesn’t really matter much in terms of what the LW is asking, but it would help clarify the extend of her irrationality about the subject.
         1. yasmara* April 12, 2017 at 2:45 pm

            Or because she had to ride home with them after? I wondered about this aspect. Did the manager bring his pot on a plane? Did he have a local connection to buy from? Or did the employees share a car & Sally panicked?
      4. Tuxedo Cat* April 12, 2017 at 2:50 pm

         I don’t think it was her simply panicking because the letter writer said Sally was angry, Sally took a photo as proof, and she thinks they should be fired.

         YMMV, but that doesn’t seem like panicking about the situation.
4. Dave* April 12, 2017 at 11:07 am

   Yea, the biggest takeaway is the lack of judgement to be able to gauge someone’s reaction. It’s pretty easy to tell if somoene is a normie and tattle tale before you offer them pot.
   1. Lily in NYC* April 12, 2017 at 11:50 am

      Ha, for some reason “normie” means “human being who is not a mutant” to me.
   2. Lablizard* April 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm

      I might be having an ESL moment, but what is a “normie”? Someone who doesn’t use drugs? Or is it someone who doesn’t break laws? Or something else? Google hasn’t clarified it much because some definitions include having a job, not being into gaming, not being into kink, etc
      1. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 1:12 pm

         Someone who, like Sally, thinks all drugs are evil and bad and all drug users are probably addicts.
      2. Llama* April 12, 2017 at 1:16 pm

         It could mean any of those things, just depends on context. In this case it’s “not into drugs”, but can mean “not into ___” for most non-mainstream things.
   3. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 4:13 pm

      My biggest take away is: don’t smoke, do edibles in your hotel room.
      1. Michelenyc* April 12, 2017 at 5:12 pm

         Or invest in a good pocket vaporizer
5. Katniss* April 12, 2017 at 11:08 am

   Considering our archaic and awful drug laws in much of the country, I can’t imagine ever thinking of reporting someone to the authorities for pot unless they were doing it in a way that would endanger others like doing it before driving.

   That being said, this advice is spot on.
   1. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 11:12 am

      I really think what Sally did was cruel — depending on the state, her colleagues could be in an extremely outsized amount of trouble.
      1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:15 am

         And have trouble getting new jobs.
         1. AMG* April 12, 2017 at 11:25 am

            That’s why I think Sally is kind of a B. Even if that’s your stance, live and let live. Jeez, Sally.
         2. Jessie the First (or second)* April 12, 2017 at 12:05 pm

            Trouble getting new jobs could be the least of their problems. Drug charges can lead to all sorts of bad.
            1. miss_chevious* April 12, 2017 at 4:40 pm

               Then maybe they shouldn’t use drugs.
      2. K.* April 12, 2017 at 11:16 am

         Agreed. I’m thinking about how many people of color end up doing disproportionately long sentences for weed possession.
         1. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 11:48 am

            Let’s hope Sally’s colleagues weren’t POC. Marijuana laws are a scourge on Americans of color, especially black men. People in these comments who hem and haw about whether it should be legal and contend that marijuana use is serious need to remember that ridiculous, punitive laws about weed have dire, outsized consequences for POC. So much white privilege in these comments.
            1. Jessie the First (or second)* April 12, 2017 at 11:58 am

               I’m seeing people talk about the response of Sally, and whether it was bad judgment for the manager. I’m not seeing much debate about the law itself, other than a bunch of people noting they are pro-legalization. I do not see any “hem and haw about whether it should be legal and contend that marijuana use is serious” – I see people saying that the decision to partake in a state where it is illegal is serious (because, bad judgment for work trip, big consequences). Have I just not read far enough down and there is some big debate about ZOMG MARIJUANA?
               1. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 12:06 pm

                  I’m seeing a lot of justification on Sally’s behalf in the vein of: “Well, it IS illegal.” Just because something is technically illegal doesn’t mean that it’s imperative, or fair, to report it to the police. Countless black lives have been ruined in this country due to weed laws.

                  Also seeing plenty of “well, maybe Sally grew up in DARE/War on Drugs times where pot was conveyed as a serious drug.” And that is just as ridiculous. Sally is an adult who can use some critical thinking and common sense. Belief in factually incorrect information about the nature of pot doesn’t justify an outsized reaction to it.
                  1. Browser* April 12, 2017 at 12:27 pm

                     How do you know Sally isn’t a POC and wanted to make damn sure she didn’t get even remotely associated with her manager’s smoking of pot?
                     1. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 12:45 pm

                        Because that is not what is expressed in the letter?
                     2. Gaia* April 12, 2017 at 12:55 pm

                        Does the letter address her race, Admin Assistant? Or are you assuming?
                     3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:32 pm

                        Speculating on details not provided by the OP is pretty pointless, so let’s rein that in.
                     4. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 1:51 pm

                        @Admin Assistant – white isn’t the default. Sally could be a POC even if the letter doesn’t point it out. And lots of people don’t believe in the POC/drug charge connection, so it’s a fair point to make.
                  2. calonkat* April 12, 2017 at 12:40 pm

                     I can’t believe I’m defending this ridiculous concept, but I do take a bit of issue with your final sentence. If someone truly believes something, then they will react based on their belief.

                     As I understand the story, Sally was offered illegal drugs and then reported it to the person in authority (hotel).
                  3. Gaia* April 12, 2017 at 12:54 pm

                     I’ve seen almost no one justify Sally’s behavior. What I have seen is people question the team lead’s judgement in light of the stupid laws in that state. Acknowledging that someone took a risk is not the same thing as ignoring how absolutely stupid it is that it ever was a risk.
                     1. calonkat* April 12, 2017 at 1:15 pm

                        Gaia, I think Sally has indeed brought the drama in various ways (leaving the conference? Why?), but I was responding specifically to Admin Assistant’s statement that “Belief in factually incorrect information about the nature of pot doesn’t justify an outsized reaction to it.”
                        This is why education with actual facts, not political theory, and teaching reasoning and questioning are important. When people believe things that are factually incorrect, they WILL make poor choices for themselves and for others.
                     2. calonkat* April 12, 2017 at 1:17 pm

                        And now I see your comment wasn’t a reply to me. My apologies, Gaia!
            2. miss_chevious* April 12, 2017 at 4:42 pm

               We don’t know whether SALLY is a POC, either, keep in mind, and whether her reaction was meant as protection for herself.
      3. Katniss* April 12, 2017 at 11:19 am

         Agreed. I don’t smoke it myself (I’m 100% sober), but I don’t want people arrested for it. Some neighbors of mine smoke a ton and it can be frustrating because the smell isn’t pleasant to me, but I would NEVER do anything to get them in trouble with the police for it. That could ruin their entire lives.
         1. Countess Boochie Flagrante* April 12, 2017 at 11:49 am

            +1

            This is exactly my situation. Thin apartment walls are a pain in the butt, and the smell of pot is really gross to me, but dude… I don’t want them getting arrested (or worse, because Baltimore) over my minor irritation!
         2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:07 pm

            Same. It’s why I’m having a really tough time with Sally’s reaction (even though I think the manager did something objectively wrong/inappropriate).
      4. dMill* April 12, 2017 at 11:52 am

         I believe 100% marijuana should be legal, however, this manager knew the consequences of their actions. They are responsible for knowing the law, it seems a little unfair to point their legal troubles at Sally.
      5. AYN* April 12, 2017 at 12:57 pm

         What Sally’s manager did was cruel. She could have been in an extremely outsized amount of trouble for HIS decision.
   2. the gold digger* April 12, 2017 at 11:21 am

      Yeah, the only thing that comes to my mind right now that is serious enough that I would call the cops on a co-worker (that is not affecting me directly) would be child abuse, domestic abuse, or child pornography. Other than that, what people do, legally or illegally, is not my business.
   3. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 12:45 pm

      Sally didn’t call the cops, the hotel did. I am betting she wanted to get moved to a different room, or wanted the hotel to clean extra well the next day or something. If she wanted to get her manager and coworker arrested, she could have made and anonymous call to the cops herself. Going to the hotel makes no sense if she wanted them arrested.
6. WellRed* April 12, 2017 at 11:09 am

   Not a fan of pot, which is now legal in our state, but honestly, Sally needs to go. Waaay overreaction, especially leaving the conference early. Oh, and getting her manager and coworker busted. FFS!
7. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 11:09 am

   Jesus, Sally was way out of line here. Do I think it’s a dumb idea to smoke weed on a work trip? Absolutely — I don’t even smoke weed, it’s not for me. But Sally’s behavior is egregious. Even if pot is illegal for any reason in your state, she showed very immature judgment. Furthermore, griping that these two colleagues weren’t fired on top of her getting them arrested is borderline cruel. I would not work very hard to keep her around if she’s prone to this kind of extreme reaction. I have no sympathy/common ground with people who view smoking pot as such a heinous activity. I don’t care if it’s still illegal in some states, that doesn’t justify what she did.
   1. Kimberlee, Esq* April 12, 2017 at 12:18 pm

      This is how I feel. It may be in large part because I’ve literally never worked anywhere that I *haven’t* smoked with co-workers off-hours, but if I had a coworker who had gotten me *arrested* for unwinding with colleagues at a conference? It would absolutely be Sally or me. I would 100% quit rather than work with someone who decided that getting me arrested for the act of smoking pot was a reasonable thing to do, especially if they were then calling for me to be fired. I’m irrationally (though, really, I think it’s perfectly rational) angry about this on behalf of Sally’s co-workers.
8. ZSD* April 12, 2017 at 11:10 am

   I think it’s interesting that “alerting the hotel” is the thing you chose to put in italics. The hotel presumably has a no-smoking policy, and hotels generally charge a cleaning fee to people who smoke in their rooms. If I saw a colleague smoking in a non-smoking hotel room, I’d probably alert the hotel so that they’d know to clean the room before another guest used it. (I mean, I’ve been in “non-smoking” hotels that have reeked, and it’s horrible.)
   If it was a smoking room, then I guess that’s different.

   And since I think a lot of commenters are going to be needing to explaining their general stance on pot for this post, here’s mine: I’ve never tried it and probably never will. I don’t really mind it being legal, though I’m not thrilled about it. Mostly, I wish people would be more considerate about not smelling. If you want to smoke pot in your own home, fine, but please wash your hair and change clothes before you leave the house. I hate it when people walk down the street/take the Metro/hang out in parks reeking of pot.
   1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:11 am

      Why would you alert the hotel though? It’s your co-worker’s problem, the hotel will decide if it needs to clean/charge a cleaning fee, and your co-worker will be on the hook if that charge shows up on the bill. It’s nobody else’s concern.
      1. ZSD* April 12, 2017 at 11:16 am

         I mean, I might not actually alert the hotel, but I’d at least speak up on behalf of future occupants and point out that they’re being inconsiderate at best. Nobody likes to go into a hotel room and have it smell of (any kind of) smoke. They were potentially causing the hotel both cleaning costs and the cost of unhappy future customers. I guess this ties into my feeling about changing clothes before going into public — if you’re going to smoke pot, okay, but be considerate about how it might affect others. So people shouldn’t smoke it in hotel rooms out of consideration for future guests and/or costs the hotel will incur.
         1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:19 am

            I still don’t see how that’s your business though. These are adults. They don’t need coworkers teaching them life lessons or directing their behavior.
         2. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 11:21 am

            Let’s be real – Sally probably did not tell the hotel and then proceed to get a bus ticket out of town because she was concerned that the manager was being inconsiderate to future occupants of the room. She did it because she freaked out about pot. That’s not a super adult way to handle the thing.
         3. Mary Dempster* April 12, 2017 at 11:21 am

            Believe it or not, hotels do clean room between guests, and if it smells like smoke, we use an ozone machine to remove the smell, wash everything we can, and charge the previous guest, and at absolute worse, move a folio from one room to another. It really doesn’t affect you in any way! And if you check into a room you feel smells of smoke, you can ask for a different room. I don’t know a single hotel that wouldn’t honor that if possible and not fully booked, which they rarely are.

            I recently had two men claim their room smelled of smoke. I went in there – it did not, at all. At least half a dozen of our staff agreed. We still upgraded them to a larger room. I promise the hotel does not rely on you standing up for future guests for their comfort.
      2. Michelenyc* April 12, 2017 at 11:20 am

         Totally agree.
   2. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 11:15 am

      I think the reaction is the same for smoking in a hotel room, though. It’s a tattle tale thing to do. If Sally had gone downstairs and told the hotel her boss was smoking cigarettes in his room, that would still be a ridiculous choice to make.

      PS Most people wouldn’t smoke in a hotel room because they wouldn’t be freaking arrested for going outside and doing it.
      1. Karyn* April 12, 2017 at 11:16 am

         This. Especially because if you smoke in a non-smoking room, they WILL figure it out and will fine you the cleaning fee, whatever it is. It’s easy enough to figure out if someone’s been smoking ANYTHING, and there’ll be a monetary consequence, whether or not someone tells on you.
      2. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 11:18 am

         FWIW, I have reported strangers for smoking in hotel rooms (cigarettes) if I’m on a non-smoking floor and I can smell it in my room. Secondhand smoke triggers my asthma and allergies. Otherwise, IDGAF about what adults do in their free time.
         1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:21 am

            That’s different! It’s directly impacting you.
         2. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 11:36 am

            Yeah, if the smell bothers you I think it’s totally valid to call the hotel, but if you only care because it’s a violation of the hotel’s rules, I don’t know that any reaction is in order beyond an eye roll.
         3. ali* April 12, 2017 at 11:41 am

            Same. If I were in a room adjacent or above where they were doing it, I’d be pissed because I’d be suffering a migraine from it. But if I knew the people doing it, I’d ask them to stop before notifying the hotel. I don’t care that they’re doing it, I just don’t want it to affect me in a negative way. I’d do the same with cigarettes. Strangers? I’d ask them to stop if I SAW it, but since that’s unlikely, I’d have to notify the hotel.

            (I’m also that annoying person that can smell third-hand smoke and gets sick from that too. So even if the hotel has thoroughly cleaned the room after something like this, I’ll still have to request a different room because I’ll still smell it.)
            1. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 11:46 am

               Oh I’m right there with you. I can’t stay in a room that a smoker has used, and my allergies get triggered if I’m forced to remain in proximity to a smoker for a period of time. It’s just not worth it.
         4. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 1:17 pm

            I think that’s fair. I have asthma that isn’t usually set off by smoke, but I’d rather not take the risk. Plus I asked for a non-smoking floor for a reason. But if Sally were really concerned about that, she wouldn’t have gone about the whole process like this.

            Sally sucks.
   3. Anonygoose* April 12, 2017 at 11:15 am

      Yes! That stood out to me too. Legal or not, I’m guessing the hotel does not want people smoking anything in their rooms (I suppose the exception to this is the few states that still have smoking rooms available).

      It’s the calling the police that was a bit overboard, though the hotel probably has a policy where if they see any illegal activities, they have to report it.
   4. Mary Dempster* April 12, 2017 at 11:15 am

      You would alert the hotel if someone was smoking in a room so they could clean it, even though if they’re not chain smoking joints, it is very likely the smell would have entirely dissipated (also, they don’t mention if there are windows, a patio, etc.) and if it had not dissipated, the hotel would have noticed, cleaned the room and charged the guest for the cleaning and make any call to law enforcement THEY deem necessary…..? I would really think this falls under the category of “not my business at all.”

      I hate when people walk down the street smelling of Axe body spray but I don’t demand strangers wash themselves for my personal comfort and preference.
      1. the gold digger* April 12, 2017 at 11:24 am

         If I could have a superpower, that would be it: I would be able to demand that strangers wash themselves for my personal comfort and preference.

         Looking at you, people who leave perfume in their wake ten minutes after they have left the room and smelly guy who hadn’t bathed or used deodorant who sat next to me on the 25-hour trip to Australia.
         1. Mary Dempster* April 12, 2017 at 11:36 am

            At least you recognize that it would be considered a superpower and not some kind of legitimate human right :)

            I get it, I’m very sensitive to smells, and if I get the heavy perfume user on an airplane fore any length of time, I’m probably going to vomit. I hate it. I wish they wouldn’t do it. But I still find it funny that someone thinks if you smoke a joint you should change your clothes and wash your hair before ever emerging into public!
   5. Newton* April 12, 2017 at 11:16 am

      Pot smoke makes me sick almost immediately. I do think it should be legalized, but I do not look forward to walking behind someone on the street who is smoking. If it does become legal, I’d like it to be treated as like a combination of cigarettes and alcohol – no smoking in enclosed public places, no “open container” on the street. Maybe someone can open a weed bar where you specifically go if you want to smoke pot so nobody else has to deal with it.
      1. Mary Dempster* April 12, 2017 at 11:23 am

         In legal states, you cannot consume it in public areas at all, only on your own private property or on private property with the explicit consent of the owner. That means no hotels, no bars, not in the street, not at a baseball game, not on a bus, not anywhere but the privacy of your own home IF you own it, and don’t rent!

         Just wanted to give you some peace of mind :)
         1. Newton* April 12, 2017 at 11:27 am

            Thank goodness! I smell it enough as it is, I was so worried that if it was legalized, people would be smoking on the streets as if it were cigarettes.
            1. Rainy, PI* April 12, 2017 at 11:51 am

               I live in a state where it’s legal, and occasionally I will encounter someone walking down the street smoking a joint, but it’s happened maybe 3 times in the 3 years I’ve lived here. Compare that to the last place I lived, where it wasn’t legalized or decriminalized (city cops looked the other way, Mounties would take your ass to jail), where I could barely leave the house without encountering someone walking or biking down the street smoking a joint.

               In my state it’s legal to buy, possess, and use, but not to use in public spaces or before/while operating a vehicle (including a bike, I’m pretty sure).
               1. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 1:19 pm

                  I live in a legal state, too, and it bugs me to no end when someone smokes on the street. I am equally bugged by cigarette smokers. It’s rude.
            2. MegaMoose, Esq* April 12, 2017 at 12:07 pm

               Well, I’m sure it depends on the state, but in my city you definitely do see people smoking on the sidewalks very similar to cigarettes, so most often outside of bars and at bus stops. And it’s not even legal for recreation use here, just largely decriminalized.
         2. Butch Cassidy* April 12, 2017 at 11:34 am

            +1 to this. I live in a legal state.

            Like, people definitely bend the rules – using a marijuana vape in public, smoking a joint in an alley, turning on the fume hood over the stove in your apartment so the smoke gets sucked up immediately (not that I have personal experience with this…) – but it’s not widespread like cigarettes.
         3. GigglyPuff* April 12, 2017 at 11:37 am

            I’m curious because the smell and the smoke also make me instantly sick, along with cigarette smell which give me headaches that can last for days. Unfortunately, I live in a very cigarette heavy state, so my rental options for non-smoking are non-existent. But I’ve wondered in states were it’s legal, does it fall under non-smoking rules in rental places, like apartment complexes?
            1. ali* April 12, 2017 at 11:43 am

               Yep, same. I lived in Colorado and it actually got better and I smelled it much less after it was legalized than prior.
               1. MegaMoose, Esq* April 12, 2017 at 12:10 pm

                  Oh that’s really interesting – I commented above that I’ve seen it pretty often in public areas in my decriminalized city. I wonder if full legalization leads to less concern over being identified as the smoker (i.e. in your yard).
                  1. Mary Dempster* April 12, 2017 at 12:34 pm

                     As others have noted, I’m sure you would find that if it were to be legalized, public consumption dips quite a bit.

                     When not legal, it doesn’t matter WHERE you smoke it, it’s still the same level of illegal, so why bother differentiating between a bus stop and your home? But when it’s legal to consume in your home all you want, you’re much more willing to just do it at home, to avoid the ticket you’d get if you were found smoking in public.
                     1. MegaMoose, Esq* April 12, 2017 at 12:53 pm

                        Yup, that makes perfect sense, it just hadn’t occurred to me before. I’d be happy to see less smoking in cars too – driving under any sort of intoxicant makes me itch.
            2. Rainy, PI* April 12, 2017 at 11:55 am

               Most people here who rent smoke on their balconies or porches, or in their yards. It’s not a big deal and the leases I’ve signed have said “don’t smoke in the unit, and please dispose of smoking materials appropriately when smoking outside”.

               I’ve lived in one apartment where the terms of the lease said that if they found you in possession or using pot while living in their property they’d toss you out and report you to the police (for what, I ask you) but it was clearly unenforceable and people still smoked in the courtyard/on their porches.
            3. LoiraSafada* April 12, 2017 at 1:06 pm

               I live in a legal state. My lease has a clause condoning marijuana use as long as the smell isn’t a nuisance to others. This is in a large, modern building run by a major corporate management company and most of the tenants work professional jobs. They absolutely do crack down on people smoking cigarettes, though.
         4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:13 pm

            I live in a state where it’s now legal, but ever since childhood (when it was certainly not legal), I’ve smelled people smoking it on the street in the same way people smoke bidis. So I guess I’d say that of the times I see/smell people smoking any substance, 30-40% of the time it’s pot and not tobacco.
         5. Not a smoker* April 12, 2017 at 1:30 pm

            I was recently in San Francisco and regularly smelled/saw people walking around smoking pot like it was a cigarette.
            1. lfi* April 12, 2017 at 2:59 pm

               oh yeah that’s normal. (they did it before it was legalized).
               1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 3:11 pm

                  Yes, this. Also in parts of Oakland, and certainly in all of Berkeley.
                  1. Jennifer's De-Criminalized Thneed* April 12, 2017 at 4:15 pm

                     Disagree, and I live in Berkeley. :)

                     There are certainly parts of all of those cities where people are casually smoking pot in public (and drinking beers without putting them in paper bags first) but I wouldn’t agree that people do it everywhere all the time. (And not just because I’ll always blow up absolute statements, which I will, but because my direct experience contradicts it.)

                     (And I’m signing myself as “de-criminalized” this time because we don’t have recreational in this state until next year.)
   6. Alton* April 12, 2017 at 11:29 am

      I don’t think I would alert the hotel if someone was smoking. If the smell of smoke was noticeable enough to be an issue, the person would probably get caught and possibly billed for it anyway. The hotel knows who has the room.

      But I also think there’s a difference between reporting someone for using a legal substance and reporting them for something that’s likely to result in an arrest and criminal charges. No, it’s not the reporter’s fault or responsibility that the pot smoker broke the law, and some people feel that the legal penalties for marijuana possession are justified. But I think that it’s worth considering the potential consequences when reporting someone’s behavior. Getting billed because you smoked a cigarette in a hotel room and they had to do extra cleaning is much different than having a permanent criminal record that may limit your options for the rest of your life. This is one of those things where technically, yes, you have every right to report something and the end result isn’t your fault. But there can be unforeseen consequences to reporting minor crimes, and it’s worth keeping that in mind.
   7. Decimus* April 12, 2017 at 11:43 am

      I admit this is the thing that caught my eye. I have no objection to marijuana, but as someone who has stayed in hotels I don’t want anyone smoking in my no-smoking room (if it was a smoking room that might be different). To me it doesn’t matter if it was a cigarette or joint there.

      Sally over-reacted I think, but the manager definitely needs a talking-to or demotion because of poor judgment just on the smoking issue – unless it was a smoking room.
   8. ByLetters* April 12, 2017 at 12:01 pm

      Hotelier here — legalization aside, I thought it might be interesting to add another dimension to this story.

      The first thing that struck me about this is how EXTREMELY UNUSUAL it was for the hotel to just “call the police upon the story being confirmed.” Hotels do not want to do this — think of how it looks to your other guests to have someone arrested in front of you! In a case where the smoking is not harming your other guests, most hotels are NOT going to resort to measures like this. We only care if we’re a non-smoking hotel and you’re smoking something in the room .. and then we are just going to charge you for it once you’ve checked out. A really involved management team might proactively ask the guest to stop and inform them of the fee at that time, but that’s it.

      Let me stress that this is not a practice of cheap or shady hotels. I have worked in some very nice venues, both business and tourist focused, and this is the standard practice in all of them. I have personally caught many people smoking weed in our rooms, and I have never, ever heard of a hotel resorting to calling police. We are not going to have that confrontation if we don’t have to. We save our good will with the police for forced evictions due to excessive noise, destruction of property, nonpayment, violence, etc.

      The only thing I can think is if Sally pressed the issue with the hotel and DEMANDED that they call the police over this infraction. I can easily picture stressed-out employees capitulating to such demands after a guest made a huge public scene over them needing to do so.
      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:11 pm

         That was my impression, as well. Most hotels I know will send someone up (or 2 someones, including someone from security) to ask their guests to please stop. But calling the police is next level, and I’ve only seen it done when someone reports domestic violence or insists that the hotel call the police. I’m fairly certain Sally is more involved than simply “reporting it to the hotel” and then sitting by as an innocent bystander.
         1. ByLetters* April 12, 2017 at 12:19 pm

            Exactly. I feel kind of badly for my strong reaction to this situation, but honestly all I could think about was not the pros/cons of legalization or the moral implications of reporting someone for a law you didn’t believe in — nope. Instead my brain keeps tripping over everyone saying “but Sally didn’t do it, the hotel did!” and I hit a mental wall because it’s so foreign to the way hotels operate.

            The flashbacks of being bullied/harassed by customers into doing things I didn’t agree with may also be coloring my perspective, too, I admit! ;)
      2. Marvel* April 12, 2017 at 12:28 pm

         This was my thought as well… but I think an inexperienced desk staffer could easily freak out about the hotel being liable for harboring illegal drug use, and they might make this mistake on their own, without Sally pushing them. I don’t know that we can assume either way.
      3. aebhel* April 12, 2017 at 1:14 pm

         Same. I think people who don’t smoke underestimate how incredibly common it is to smoke weed in hotel rooms, and yes: you can pretty much always tell. I worked in the hotel industry for years and I never heard of calling the cops on someone for weed. Why would you? It’s an unnecessary headache for everyone involved.
      4. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 1:29 pm

         This is a really good point–this seems very unlikely for the hotel to do. It’s possible a third party called the police. (As many people have noted, you don’t need to have superhuman senses to detect pot smoke in neighboring rooms.)
      5. Nobody Here By That Name* April 12, 2017 at 2:21 pm

         As another hotel person I can easily think of another scenario: If the hotel security went up to the room to tell them to knock it off with smoking whatever they were smoking and the manager and co-worker put up a huge fuss. Or, like I mentioned in another thread, if they had a ton of weed just sitting out in the open.

         It’s possible Sally demanded they call the cops, but it’s not the only scenario that could’ve brought the cops in.
   9. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:09 pm

      I disagree, because smoking a cigarette is not going to get you evicted or arrested. I don’t think this was a courtesy or an effort to be considerate. Sally told the hotel b/c she wanted her manager to get in trouble, legal or otherwise.
9. Karyn* April 12, 2017 at 11:10 am

   I really feel like Sally is overreacting. I’m wondering if she didn’t have a problem with this manager to begin with and this seemed like an opportune moment to throw him (and coworker) under the bus.

   That said, I don’t think in general that it’s a good idea to fire people just because another employee says you should. I mean, in some cases, you should definitely fire people – sexual harassment, for instance – but simply doing it on the say-so of another employee may undermine you as a manager. In this case, you’d be justified in firing one or both of them because of the infraction – getting arrested for breaking (admittedly dumb) drug laws is a serious thing – but at the same time, Sally may view this as having some kind of power over management decisions.

   I definitely think you should have a talk with her about how to handle these situations in the future, and if possible, transfer her, because otherwise this is just going to continue to cause drama all around.
10. Mazzy* April 12, 2017 at 11:11 am

    I am not pro pot because I know too many typical potheads. Whether they were that way before the pot or because of it is another story I don’t want to get into here, but…

    I don’t think we need to pick sides both should be reprimanded. Offering your subordinates pot? Really? Tattling on others if they are only potentially harming themselves? Really? Only caveat would be if they were sharing rooms. I wouldn’t expect sally to have to sit through others pot smoking like that
    1. DaisyGrrl* April 12, 2017 at 12:27 pm

       Yeah, I’m wondering if they were sharing a room and that’s why Sally flipped out. I wouldn’t be thrilled be stuck in a room with two people smoking pot if I were a big-time rule-follower. I might even leave early if I thought I’d be stuck sharing a room with them for a few more days. I still think she overreacted by getting the police involved, but the other stuff wasn’t necessarily egregious (especially if room sharing).
    2. Yorick* April 12, 2017 at 1:10 pm

       OP says the manager invited the others to his room, so it doesn’t sound like they were sharing.
    3. kates* April 12, 2017 at 2:21 pm

       *shrug* I smoke a butt ton of weed and still manage to work, go to grad school, volunteer, maintain a healthyish diet. I just like to zone out at the end of the day.
11. Murphy* April 12, 2017 at 11:12 am

    While acknowledging that I don’t know the whole story, I find it hard to believe that manager and co-worker “pressured” Sally into doing marijuana. That kind of behavior seems very “after school special” and not something that real adults would actually engage in.
    1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:17 am

       c’mon Sally…everyone’s doing it…don’t you want that promotion? just take a little hit.
       1. AMG* April 12, 2017 at 11:28 am

          Okay, you are just on a roll today! lol!
          1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 11:37 am

             I HAVE A LOT OF STRONG FEELINGS ABOUT POT OK

             :)
             1. KR* April 12, 2017 at 2:39 pm

                *crying laughing emoji here*
          2. Lily in NYC* April 12, 2017 at 11:53 am

             NO, rolling is with ecstasy, not pot! (ok, that was way funnier in my head)
             1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:14 pm

                It made me low-level snort! (like “ha! that’s funny”)
       2. Murphy* April 12, 2017 at 11:28 am

          Haha, exatly.
          1. Murphy* April 12, 2017 at 11:29 am

             *or exactly.
    2. Newton* April 12, 2017 at 11:19 am

       I’ve never run into it in a professional setting, but there have been people in my personal life, who, upon hearing I’ve never smoked pot, immediately start regaling me with stories of how great pot is and how I should try it, and oh, it makes you so much more creative and relaxed, you should really come over some time and try it. They’re not exactly shoving joints into my hands and chanting, “SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE”, but it is a weird sort of pressure.
       1. GigglyPuff* April 12, 2017 at 11:24 am

          This. One of my family members smokes, but I have no desire to be around them while they are or interact with them while they’re buzzed. So I get pretty annoyed when they do it anyway when they visit and they start saying how much I’d love it, and cracking “jokes” about me. So it doesn’t have to be an after school special type situation for someone to feel “pressured” by others. They typically just make you feel bad.
       2. MegaMoose, Esq* April 12, 2017 at 12:14 pm

          Yeah, I’ve gotten some of this from friends and family when I mention my idiosyncratic responses the half dozen times I’ve smoked. Lots of “oh, you have to try this strain,” and so on. I don’t really mind it, but it can get tiresome. I’d love it if we had full legalization and I could actually trust that what I’m buying is what the seller says it is. Until then, no thanks.
       3. SimonTheGreyWarden* April 12, 2017 at 3:09 pm

          Someone in my life can be like that sometimes…I honestly think they have forgotten how many times they have asked me if I want to try a hit, or how many times they have tried to convince me that my ADHD could be cured with pot. Well, it probably could be, but I’m a teacher so….it isn’t worth my job to find out.
    3. paul* April 12, 2017 at 11:19 am

       Really? “Normie?”

       I’d love to believe that but some of my own experiences in the past, and a lot o the letters published on this blog, remind me that adults can be middle school.

       It’s hard to know from the letter what form the “pressure” took and Allison addressed that well.
       1. paul* April 12, 2017 at 11:20 am

          OK, the first sentence wasn’t supposed to be there, it was part of a response to another post I decided not to post. Guess I hadn’t cleared the field before posting this.
    4. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 11:19 am

       Right? I just eyerolled so hard at that part.
    5. F Manley* April 12, 2017 at 11:19 am

       I dunno; given how many stories we’ve gotten about people being pressured by colleagues to drink, I can believe that real adults would pressure someone to toke up, too. Especially as a way of reducing the chance of being reported on their unprofessional choices, because people who participate aren’t going to rat out the others.

       That said, given what Sally did afterward… I would not be surprised if she were exaggerating the “pressure” part either.
       1. Amy* April 12, 2017 at 2:37 pm

          I’ve never been pressured to smoke pot but I have been pressured to drink by co-workers to drink way more than I was by my peers in high school.
          1. K.* April 12, 2017 at 4:16 pm

             Me too – not just to drink, which I do, but to get drunk, which I do not do, especially at work functions. The culture at my old company was very, very boozy.
    6. hbc* April 12, 2017 at 11:22 am

       A manager is already in a position of power, though. Just like it’s not cool to offer totally consensual sex to an employee (really, I promise, no pressure), it should be even more clear that offering to bond over illegal activity is right out.
       1. paul* April 12, 2017 at 11:27 am

          Yeah. As much as a drama llama as Sally was, the manager’s behavior here is simply amazingly dumb and I’d be thinking about letting them go over it.

          You’re putting your direct reports at risk of arrest in some jurisdictions, you’re inviting them to partake in an illegal activity, you’re breaking policy (I’m assuming you’ve got a policy against using drugs at work events)….it’s just phenomenally dumb.
       2. Murphy* April 12, 2017 at 11:28 am

          Oh I don’t think the manager should have had/offered the marijuana at all. Completely unprofessional behavior on a work trip. It’s only the “pushed at her and pressured to use it” that I find a little far fetched. (Unless she felt pressured due to the power imbalance, which is separate.)
          1. Murphy* April 12, 2017 at 11:31 am

             Oops, it showed up later.
       3. Murphy* April 12, 2017 at 11:31 am

          I wrote a comment and it disappeared. Here it is again:

          Oh I don’t think that the manager should have had/offered the joint at all. Completely unprofessional behavior. It’s just the “pushed at her and pressured to use it” part that I found a little far fetched. (Unless she meant that she felt pressured due to the power imbalance, which is a separate issue.)
          1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:21 pm

             I’m not sure if the comments are all being moderated? Nearly all of mine are appearing after a delay.
          2. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 1:59 pm

             I mean, asking your subordinate out politely on a date isn’t “pushed at her and pressured her to go on a date” the same way this wasn’t. It’s still not okay on an extreme level.
       4. Trout 'Waver* April 12, 2017 at 12:37 pm

          Yeah, this is my thought as well. People find it hard to say no to the boss.
    7. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 11:25 am

       Actually I know real adults who do that sort of thing. I actually had it done to me with alcohol at a work event once, by very nice people.
    8. LSP* April 12, 2017 at 11:29 am

       I suppose it could be argued that because the person making the offer was senior to her that there is an implied “coercion” that may have added to Sally’s feeling pressure when it was meant to be an offer, much in the same way coercion of a manager over an subordinate is implicit in cases of sexual assault. If someone, rightly or wrongly, feels that their job is at risk if they don’t partake in a particular behavior, that could be the reason Sally felt the way she did.

       For the record, I am a pro-legalization non-user who thinks Sally way over-reacted by getting her colleagues arrested and leaving town, and that the manager and co-worker in this case used some bad judgement on their end. Just playing a little devil’s advocate here.
    9. MoinMoin* April 12, 2017 at 11:34 am

       I agree with you, but I think Sally’s perception of feeling pressured could be sincere also- he was her boss, for starters, and it could also feel like two men are bonding over something she won’t legally/morally/physically engage in, and that decision can hurt her professionally in the long run.
    10. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 12:01 pm

        Seriously. 9/10 potheads are chill as hell and won’t be bothered at all if you say no — hey, more weed for them!
    11. Suzanne Lucas--Evil HR Lady* April 12, 2017 at 12:18 pm

        I’ve never been pressured to smoke marijuana, but as a non drinker I’ve encountered some pretty heavy pressure to drink. And that’s as an adult. I was never pressured as a teen or as a college/grad student. It’s been other women who undoubtedly feel a bit guilty about the amount they are guzzling.

        I can totally see people putting pressure on Sally here.
        1. Anon druggie* April 12, 2017 at 1:42 pm

           I sobered up when I was 16. I’m 42 now. Going through part of high school, all of college, and on will inherently come with some pressure to drink/smoke weed/ whatever. In all my years of being invited, there has been some mild pressure (and many questions about whether I am a Mormon. No. I would be the absolute worst, most disgraceful Mormon ever). But really, nothing more than light teasing and mild surprise at someone who never (really? Not ever? Not even once in a while at weddings? Or at a concert? Seriously?) drinks or smokes pot, it’s not that bad.
    12. Roscoe* April 12, 2017 at 12:27 pm

        Excatly. I’m in my 30s. I’ve never been “pressured” to smoke pot. I’ve been pressured to take a shot of booze before, but whenever there is pot around, they ask if I want some, if I say no, more for them
    13. Marvel* April 12, 2017 at 12:29 pm

        As hilariously exaggerated as after-school specials are… I have absolutely been pressured before. It does happen, to real adults.
    14. No Smoking Sign* April 12, 2017 at 12:35 pm

        I can speak from personal experience that some people are jerks and do indeed try to pressure you into using marijuana in spite of your polite refusal. Using all the bullying tactics you’d expect of a high school clique. It’s happened to me several times.

        I really wish I’d called the cops on some of those pathetic a-holes.
    15. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 1:33 pm

        Back in my college years, people my own age didn’t care that I didn’t drink. People a decade or two older routinely got very concerned about why I wasn’t drinking. Different little social subgroups vary widely as to what’s not a big deal and what’s essential to conform.

        If reading advice columns has taught me nothing else, it’s that there is no behavior that real adults would not engage in.
    16. miss_chevious* April 12, 2017 at 4:46 pm

        Really? I think we’ve seen a lot of letters on this page about supervisors pressuring people into plenty of things that are inappropriate and engaging in retaliation when employees don’t comply. I don’t find it hard to believe at all.
12. TotesMaGoats* April 12, 2017 at 11:12 am

    So, personally, I think using MJ is not a good choice but I also think it should be legal (and thus taxable) like alcohol. Odds are far less likely with MJ use than alcohol that you would hurt someone in your stoned state, so you do you. I’ve never and would never use but should it be offered to me in a personal situation, I’d decline and think nothing else of it. If it was offered in the situation given, I’d give major side eye to the manager for a really poor choice and then move along. If it was offered and then more pressure applied, I’d consider more consequences for the manager. It’s one thing to offer and another entirely to pressure or guilt someone into partaking. Especially with a power dynamic in play.

    I think your employee majorly overreacted in all ways. Just say no and move along. I’m pretty sure that was in all school curriculums. I was never pressured by my friends to do anything and I still know how to say no and not let that stuff faze me. So, she way overreacted for an adult.

    I agree with Alison, if a transfer makes business sense then sure. But if not, either she stays in her role or goes of her own free will.
13. Jan Levinson* April 12, 2017 at 11:12 am

    I’m going to have to disagree with parts of what Alison said on this one.

    In particular, I wouldn’t compare the pressure Sally felt in this situation as equal to being offered a glass of wine; one is illegal, and the other is not. Yes, I think Sally had a strong reaction, but this isn’t really about Sally’s reaction. Rather, it’s about the fact that her colleagues were partaking in ILLEGAL ACTIVITY whilst on a business trip, and seemingly aren’t being reprimanded for it. Even if you as an adult disagree with marijuana use being illegal, it still does not make it legal, and therefore the consequences should not be lessened.

    Do I think Sally’s threat to quit if she doesn’t get a transfer is over the top? Yes. But if anyone should be parting ways with the company due to the situation that took place, it should be Sally’s two colleagues.
    1. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 11:13 am

       The letter says that they were reprimanded for it: “Both Sally’s team manager and colleague were arrested for possession. They were also given a reprimand for behaving that way on a work trip. “
       1. Jan Levinson* April 12, 2017 at 11:17 am

          I should have been clear – specifically, I was referring to the actions of her company (or lack of), not the police, who arrested them.

          Essentially, I just feel like being reprimanded for behaving that way on a work trip is a pretty light reaction to employees who were arrested for doing something illegal while representing the company on a business trip. In my opinion, the employees should have been fired for this.
          1. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 11:18 am

             They wouldn’t have been arrested if Sally hadn’t narced!
             1. The Tired Energizer Bunny* April 12, 2017 at 11:30 am

                * If Sally hadn’t followed the law and likely company policy?

                Regardless of any personal views or stances on the law or company policy, isn’t that a condition of employment that employees acknowledge before accepting the job?
                1. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 11:32 am

                   The law does not require you to report marijuana use. Good lord.
                   1. The Tired Energizer Bunny* April 12, 2017 at 11:44 am

                      I work in federal compliance/auditing. We have some strict requirements on employment and drug usage regardless of state laws. If you knew illegal activity (whatever that may be) was going on and didn’t report it and it gets put in the spotlight, you’ll be in a world of hurt.

                      Just providing an alternative perspective here, not trying to start something.
                      1. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 11:49 am

                         To be clear, you need to report if one of your employees smoked weed while offsite, not during work hours?
                      2. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 11:50 am

                         I’m responding to the part of your comment where you wrote “If Sally hadn’t followed the law…” There is no such law.
                      3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock* April 12, 2017 at 12:17 pm

                         No dude, in 90% of jobs there is no legal duty to report that a person is smoking marijuana on their personal time. Sally had no obligation to report what happened to law enforcement or anyone other than HR.
                      4. DArcy* April 12, 2017 at 12:20 pm

                         There is no law that requires one to report MJ use (or most other crimes). However, failure to report illegal activity is a compliance violation and can seriously affect your chances of getting/retaining a security clearance. One of my prior roomies was in the nuclear industry and she was legitimately freaking out over this because the landlady announced that she was thinking about setting up a grow operation in the garage when the state legalized it.
                      5. ANewbie* April 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm

                         @Temperance – I’m a different fed, but yes, I would have to report it. If it ever came out that I had known and not reported, I would be in a much bigger world of hurt than the original lawbreaker because it would be seen as an integrity violation for me whereas they just smoked pot.
                   2. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 11:46 am

                      at the same time though most employers don’t expect employees to look the other way when people are doing illegal drugs while they’re representing the company. Granted most employers don’t call the cops to arrest their employees. But calling the cops to report what’s likely misdemeanor behavior is the much more honorable of the two….at least from the employers perspective.
                      1. Mt* April 12, 2017 at 11:52 am

                         She didn’t call the cops, the front desk did. She complained to the front desk that people were smoking in one of the rooms. If her room was next to his, which happens if you all book togethet, i would have complained to if i coupd smell it in my room.
                      2. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 11:53 am

                         I’m not so sure that you’re correct here. Sally’s actions in getting police involved highlight the malfeasance here. I would be pretty annoyed if Sally was my employee, because instead of handling the issue internally, and not bringing bad press, she blew it open and now I have to deal with a much bigger PR nightmare. It’s not like she’s a whistleblower.
                      3. Czhorat* April 12, 2017 at 11:54 am

                         Yes, but there’s zero indication taht they were smoking in public where they were “representing the company”.

                         If anything hurt the company’s reputation, it’s having their employees arrested. And that is nearly as much Sally’s fault as theirs.
                      4. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 11:56 am

                         I missed that. That said then her only real sin then is high tailing it out of there early.
                      5. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 11:58 am

                         Czhort,
                         You represent your company for the entire duration you’re on a work trip.
                      6. GingerHR* April 12, 2017 at 1:37 pm

                         I’d wonder how far the ‘representing’ point would run? Leaving aside all legal points, it was stupid of the manager to do this – definitely a judgement issue. I have no personal issue with someone smoking dope, but think that offering a subordinate an illegal substance is not a good course of action. However, even when away for work, you’re entitled to downtime, and what you do in the privacy of your hotel room is not necessarily a reflection on your company. It can be, of course, but isn’t necessarily.
                2. MT* April 12, 2017 at 11:39 am

                   thats a good call out, if they were on a business trip, i would bet the company has a drug use policy.

                   My thinking was, if they were traveling together, and their rooms were near each other, she may have reported to the front desk because the smell. She has absolutely no authority in the room, with her lead/manager, so they only way to get them to stop was the front desk.
          2. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 11:22 am

             They were arrested. It’s possible the company is considering that to be enough of a punishment without adding to it. Especially if they aren’t too worried about the activity itself and more with the professionalism of partaking on a company trip.
          3. JHunz* April 12, 2017 at 11:26 am

             People do illegal things on work trips all the time. Presumably you wouldn’t advocate someone be fired for being issued a speeding ticket on a work trip. You also don’t know how important a reprimand is in the context of OP’s company, it’s quite possible that it’s significant.
             1. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 11:49 am

                Most companies care about misdemeanors and felonies not minor moving violations.
                1. JHunz* April 12, 2017 at 11:59 am

                   If they don’t care about minor moving violations they’re already exercising discretion in punishment between different illegal activities. Which is my whole point, that that is something you would generally expect.
                   1. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 12:20 pm

                      Well Of course. Isn’t that what you would do as a business owner or employer- use discretion by taking more serious crimes more seriously.
                      1. aebhel* April 12, 2017 at 1:19 pm

                         I would consider putting the safety of other motorists at risk by driving unsafely a much more serious thing than smoking a joint in the privacy of a hotel room, for what it’s worth. I realize that driving 25 mph over the speed limit is legally much less serious than minor drug possession, but it’s a lot more likely to result in people being injured and company property being destroyed.
          4. the gold digger* April 12, 2017 at 11:26 am

             Should they be fired if they get a speeding ticket? Speeding is also illegal.

             Signed,

             Never smoked pot but don’t care what other people do with their own bodies
             1. Amadeo* April 12, 2017 at 12:45 pm

                Depends on the job. School bus drivers do, in fact, lose their jobs (at least in this state) if they ever get any kind of traffic infraction or other traffic-related crime on their record.
          5. Adam* April 12, 2017 at 12:13 pm

             They weren’t “representing the company” hanging out in the hotel room in private, get a grip.
             1. Jan Levinson* April 12, 2017 at 12:30 pm

                I politely disagree.

                I was a college athlete, and remember our coach always telling us to “be on our best behavior” while in hotels for away games. Many of the hotel employees knew that we were with ‘such and such University’, and if we were to behave poorly, it could potentially shed a negative light on the university.

                I believe this is a similar situation – the hotel employees who called the cops may have known what company the employees were with, potentially shedding a negative light on the company.

                Just my take.
             2. Arduino* April 12, 2017 at 1:20 pm

                You are considered “on” when on these trips. So yes you represent the company whenever other employees are around. This would be like getting fired for calling someone a racial slur at the office happy hour acriiss the street after work.
             3. Electric Hedgehog* April 12, 2017 at 1:49 pm

                By that standard, the various secret service agents hanging out with hookers shouldn’t be newsworthy. There are legitimately jobs where what you do and who you associate with in your private time is worthy of scrutiny.
    2. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 11:17 am

       Meh. I have never smoke pot in my life and probably won’t as long as I’m employed, but if someone offers me a joint I just say “no thanks” and move on with my day. This is not something worth freaking out this much about.
    3. Kate* April 12, 2017 at 11:53 am

       “In particular, I wouldn’t compare the pressure Sally felt in this situation as equal to being offered a glass of wine; one is illegal, and the other is not.”

       I felt this way too, and I can definitely see how being asked by your boss to engage in illegal activity (even if you disagree with the law, which I do) would feel more like pressure than simply being offered a drink. Regardless, Sally doesn’t get to dictate how the company addresses the incident or that any of her coworkers be fired, so I think the advice still stands, particularly the part about keeping Sally working for a manager who thinks she got him arrested (though, she wasn’t actually the one to call the police). Would this manager retaliate against Sally for being a “whistleblower”? Or could any potential criticism of her be taken that way?
       1. Elsajeni* April 12, 2017 at 3:02 pm

          Yeah, I feel the same — since marijuana is illegal where I am and many (most?) employers would frown on smoking up on a business trip, the second my boss offers me a joint, it pulls me into a weird “you and I share a secret” position with him. The offer itself, in a work context, would make me uncomfortable in a way that “Hey, Jack and I are going down to the hotel bar for a couple drinks; want to join us?” wouldn’t, just because it means that now I have this information about my boss and Jack that I’ve got to keep from other people at work.
14. MadGrad* April 12, 2017 at 11:12 am

    WOAH. I’m not into pot and would be very uncomfortable if my boss were doing it around me on a work trip (I can see there being inherent pressure there), but alerting the hotel and getting people arrested? Pushing for them to be fired after getting them arrested? That’s nothing short of malicious. Let her leave.
15. Allie* April 12, 2017 at 11:13 am

    If Sally had such a strong reaction to just being offered a joint, then I agree she is way way overreacting. However if her team manager went beyond that and made her feel uncomfortable I am a lot more understanding. If a team manager was actually pressuring subordinates to smoke, I can understand a more extreme reaction.

    However going to the front desk and taking a picture just feels really extreme no matter what. If it wasn’t her hotel room, she has no personal stake here and it feels way punitive and policing.

    So I think the manager was wrong but I wouldn’t feel comfortable around Sally as a coworker either. I don’t smoke or use any kind of drugs but I would worry she would go off on a crusade about something else.
    1. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 11:17 am

       Even if my manager were being a complete asshole and I felt pressured, I can leave at any time. I can call the Big Boss and let them know what’s going on. I can do a lot of things before I completely screw up someone’s criminal record.
       1. Allie* April 12, 2017 at 11:20 am

          Yeah, wanting the manager reprimanded is one thing, but getting someone arrested is just so beyond the pale, particularly as some drug offenses have overly harsh consequ6 (certain federal programs, immigration, etc.) Not cool.
          1. Allie* April 12, 2017 at 11:25 am

             I will add that I am pretty sympathetic to medical pot because when my grandma had cancer, it was the only thing that really worked with her pain and nausea. Technically it wasn’t legal at the time but her doctor under that table recommended it. So the whole “illegal illegal!’ Freak out makes me less sympathetic because sometimes the law is wrong.
             1. the gold digger* April 12, 2017 at 11:28 am

                I wish this had been an option when my dad was going through chemo in 1997. His nausea was horrible and he had to take a lot of morphine for the pain, which caused its own problems.
             2. Anonymous-for-reasons semi-regular commenter* April 12, 2017 at 1:16 pm

                +1
                A close friend of mine is currently undergoing chemo for stage 3 breast cancer. Her state allows medical marijuana but only for the most severe of cases, which apparently hers is not. My boyfriend’s mother has cancer in a state with much more lax medical marijuana laws and buys enough to share with my friend. Every other month or so, my boyfriend and I basically have to go all Walter White to smuggle some over to my friend’s state because weed is the only thing that really helps her with the pain and allows her to sleep.

                Makes me angry.
       2. Anoname* April 12, 2017 at 12:06 pm

          If you are doing something illegal you are running the risk of screwing up your own criminal record, not anyone else.
          1. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 1:27 pm

             If you are doing something fairly innocuous in a room where it is unlikely anyone will see you, and someone else in that room runs downstairs to tattle to hotel staff, that’s someone else. As Alison said, I’m not going to get on board with punitive and useless laws screwing up anyone else’s life.
       3. WhirlwindMonk* April 12, 2017 at 2:36 pm

          Having worked at a company before that has some really terrible buddy-buddy dynamics in upper management, I’m not going to lie, I’d think twice about relying on a my-word-vs-his-word thing, especially if I didn’t have the appropriate phone numbers on hand and my report had to wait until at least the next day. If my manager was actually pressuring me to do something illegal, I’d at least consider getting the police involved so that the whole thing couldn’t be swept under the rug by firing me. Call it paranoid, but I’ve been through something very much like that outcome.
16. Nico M* April 12, 2017 at 11:13 am

    I fear that if narco sally is righteous enough call the cops on her colleagues, she will create even more drama if she doesnt get her way.
17. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 11:14 am

    “She has put in for a transfer and stated if she is not given one, she will quit.”

    Don’t let the door hit ya!

    Seriously, I have very, very, little patience for employees who give ultimatums. Sally handled this all really, really badly and now wants the company to do favors for her? Eh, no. I wouldn’t want her on my team – she seems like the type to report when Fergus came in 20 minutes late, and generally drive me crazy. I used to work with a self-appointed hall monitor like this and everyone hated him.

    Definitely have a talk with the manager about his judgment. That was a bad decision. But Sally isn’t worth the effort I don’t think.
    1. Arduino* April 12, 2017 at 11:30 am

       I am surprised by your response (long time reader new un).

       Could you explain your reasoning a bit more? Why do you think she is a “hall monitor”?

       I see your point about the ultimatum – is it ever coachable iyo? Like if Sally is otherwise great and new to the workforce would you be willing to coach her?
       1. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 11:51 am

          I’m not saying she is, but I wouldn’t want to work with her. There are times in most jobs where people bend the rules slightly for whatever reason. Like, I might let my employees take off a few minutes early because the next day is a holiday, things like that. Not often, but I think most managers do things like that from time to time. I don’t need Sally reporting me to the inspector general because I let my employees leave a few minutes early.

          Glad that Sally is a rule follower, but when she got fellow employees arrested instead of just asking them to stop, she lost my trust. She didn’t have to agree with the behavior, but running to hotel management to report them is just going way too far.
          1. Arduino* April 12, 2017 at 12:00 pm

             I see a huge difference between being courteous to the hotel to alert them of illegal activity and complaining when a co worker leaves 5 min earlier.

             I would probably do number 1 and have never considered #2
             1. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 12:20 pm

                It seems like a personality type to me though. She could have just as easily said “oh, I’m actually really uncomfortable around pot, could you not?” Like I said above, I’ve never smoked the stuff and won’t as long as I’m in my current job, but I don’t see this as something I have to report.

                And no, I don’t feel nitpicked, no worries :)
                1. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 1:08 pm

                   No she really couldn’t. She was offered pot by her Manager, her colleague was participating, she explained to OP that they pressured her, of course she didn’t feel comfortable saying something to them!

                   I have been in situations like this before, including a work situation, a company happy hour in which everyone, including my bosses, drank enough to be tipsy/drunk. I was by far the odd person out, and was laughed at for not drinking (that was before and after they started drinking. I couldn’t hide it because we were all at the same restaurant table, and I couldn’t afford to buy a meal and an alcoholic drink to pretend to sip.
                   1. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 1:41 pm

                      It’s weird to me that she wouldn’t feel comfortable saying something to them directly, but WOULD feel comfortable reporting them to authorities and having them know she did that. She gets the same result (they stop smoking) but with a lot more damage to her reputation.
                      1. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 2:04 pm

                         Would you find it as weird if the manager had asked her out on a date?
                      2. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 2:36 pm

                         But the manager didn’t ask her out on a date. It’s a completely different situation.
                      3. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 3:03 pm

                         Honestly, it would feel pretty much the same to me – my manager is asking me to participate in something that has no place in work with the same kind of superior/subordinate. Only, instead of being sexual/romantic, it’s illegal.

                         I mean, I’m glad you wouldn’t have a problem saying something to them directly, but I would find it hard to say, “No, and I’m really offended you asked while I’m at work and I would prefer you never to use around me ever.” and I don’t think I’m the only one.
                         Frankly, I get enough pushback when I answer the “Can I smoke around you?” question with, “No.” that I would find saying that to a boss a big undertaking.
                      4. j-nonymous* April 12, 2017 at 4:32 pm

                         It isn’t weird to me (though it’s not the reaction I would have). We see on this blog (and I suspect in our daily work lives too) that people generally are much more inclined to rely on managers, HR or some other external resource to resolve their interpersonal issues.

                         Sally may have had to address this issue with her boss directly had the substance been alcohol. But it was pot, which is illegal in the OP’s state and that meant Sally could find someone else to solve her problem for her.
          2. Arduino* April 12, 2017 at 12:02 pm

             And thanks for responding. I am usually on the same page as you on work matters so wnted to better understand your perspective. Hoping you don’t feel not picked.
    2. SL #2* April 12, 2017 at 12:11 pm

       THIS. I was trying to figure out why I felt so strongly that Sally should quit if she wanted to, but I think you hit the nail right on the head for me. Her ultimatum showed that she wasn’t looking out for the best interests of the company, she was intent on making sure there was maximum punishment for her team and she won’t rest until they’ve suffered enough in her eyes, even if the rest of the world is snickering behind her back.

       I think her team, especially the manager, showed really, really poor judgment and should be warned that their jobs are in danger. But honestly, Sally is the one who’s not worth the trouble here and I wouldn’t weep over her quitting.
18. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 11:15 am

    Would it be legally problematic to punish an employee for reporting illegal behavior?
    1. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 11:18 am

       They wouldn’t be punishing her if they let her quit. She would be making a choice.
       1. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 11:36 am

          A bunch of people have commented that they would have fired her. That’s mostly what I was referring to.
          1. MegaMoose, Esq* April 12, 2017 at 12:21 pm

             I’m fairly sure that there is no legal protection in the US for reporting illegal activity broadly. Whistleblower laws are generally very narrow.
    2. Allie* April 12, 2017 at 11:18 am

       No. But they have no obligation to give her the transfer. I have a feeling this wouldn’t be the last time Sally goes on a crusade and if I were the manager I would let this situation solve itself by sending the transfer (unless ther would be some reason they would grant it othwrwise) and letting her quit.
       1. Aveline* April 12, 2017 at 5:14 pm

          Well, that depends upon how the rest of the team is treating her. If they were engaged in illegal activity and then she was treated poorly b/c she reported it, there are some states where she’d have a case.

          They need to tread very lightly and probably speak to their local employment law lawyer.
19. Leah* April 12, 2017 at 11:16 am

    I think the advice here is off the mark. Marijuana is illegal in the OP’s state and Sally was caught in a situation where they were doing something illegal. If her husband is a doctor or other professional that has to be licensed in healthcare, any kind of drug infraction can cause problems for his license, so she may have panicked. There are lots of situations people enter into that require agreement to no drug use, including volunteering at your children’s schools, accepting scholarships, and being in certain organizations. Regardless of whether you think marijuana should be legalized, they performed an illegal activity in front of her and put her in a bad situation . If she wants to transfer, transfer her. The manager and other employee are idiots.
    1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 11:28 am

       But she could’ve just left the room. C’mon. This wasn’t a choice between tattling or taking drugs. It was a choice between exiting the room and escalating the situation a thousand times over.

       I do agree the manager and other employee are idiots though.
       1. Amy* April 12, 2017 at 2:52 pm

          I wonder if she let her imagination run away with her and was also worried about getting pulled over and having the car searched on the ride home. It might explain the greyhound thing. I only say this because more than one person I know SAY they were arrested for possession or intent because they happened to be hanging out or in the car with people who had drugs. Now I know that wasn’t the reason, especially in one case where the person had offered to sell me pot more than once, but someone with less experience or less sketchy friends and relatives may not.
       2. Tuxedo Cat* April 12, 2017 at 3:49 pm

          I’m trying to figure out how much time passed from being offered a joint to having the photo taken- I assume Sally took it? Maybe the manager or coworker were really irresponsible and posted it on social media, but if she took it, it doesn’t feel like she was particularly worried about herself.
    2. Beachlover* April 12, 2017 at 11:38 am

       Except no one would have been arrested it Sally had not reported it. If she was concerned about her reputation or professional ethics, she could have left and gone to her room.
       1. Or...* April 12, 2017 at 11:52 am

          No one would have been arrested if no one was breaking the law, either.
          1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:05 pm

             Yeah, but it really wasn’t hurting anyone for this to be happening in a hotel room. Terrible judgement to do on a work trip, but marijuana laws are so archaic that arguing people who partake deserve to be arrested or are getting what they deserve when someone reports them is beyond ridiculous.
          2. Anon for this* April 12, 2017 at 12:11 pm

             But don’t you see that it’s a dumb law? Only laws that aren’t dumb according to what I think is dumb or not should be obeyed. /sarcasm
             1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:18 pm

                Lord. There’s a difference between saying “this is a dumb law and nobody needs to obey it” and saying “the breaking of this law wasn’t hurting anyone, so Sally’s extreme reaction was unnecessary and she very likely damaged somebody’s livlihood by reporting them in such an over-the-top way”
                1. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 1:31 pm

                   Don’t you know? All laws must be adhered to equally, even if they are unjust, or used unjustly to target a specific group. This is why I have never gone over the speed limit, or driven a month with expired tags before I realized they were expired, or any number of things that people do on the reg that are apparently okay to ignore as long as it’s me doing it and since I’ll never do drugs, that one is the hill I’ll plant my flag on. /sarcasm
                   1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 1:49 pm

                      Love.
             2. aebhel* April 12, 2017 at 1:52 pm

                Rude and unnecessary.
          3. Aunt Vixen* April 12, 2017 at 1:29 pm

             I don’t want to derail the whole thread with this, but I think several episodes of police-community relations in the past few years have demonstrated that this is not at all universally true.
    3. Anononon* April 12, 2017 at 11:38 am

       But the consequences only happened because Sally reported it. If she had just said no and went back to her room, nothing would have happened. I don’t see how Sally was “caught” in any situation. Say no and leave,which is exactly what she did.
       1. dMill* April 12, 2017 at 11:55 am

          I disagree that the consequences only happened because Sally reported it. The consequences happened because an adult made a choice to do something illegal and the hotel reported it. Sally did not call the police. I don’t think we can assume that nothing would have happened if she had just left, someone else could have smelled it or a hotel manager could have caught them.
          1. Stop That Goat* April 12, 2017 at 12:32 pm

             Or they could have walked outside and smoked in front of a cop.

             That’s not what happened though. We can talk about hypotheticals all day.
             1. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 1:15 pm

                But that is what happened. Sally reported it to the hotel, because of the cleaning fee, because she wanted a room further away from the smokers, whatever, and they called the cops. NOT HER.
                1. Stop That Goat* April 12, 2017 at 1:21 pm

                   I’m talking about someone else calling or the manager. Not Sally.

                   Sally knew they would get in trouble when she reported it. Who wouldn’t know that?
                   1. CheeryO* April 12, 2017 at 3:22 pm

                      I can easily see not realizing that police would get involved. She was most likely picturing hotel security going up to their room to ask them to knock it off.

                      I am really having trouble with so many people assigning blame to Sally when the whole situation could have been avoided by, oh, I don’t know… not smoking pot at a work conference. Just really bad judgement on the part of the supervisor.
    4. Jessie the First (or second)* April 12, 2017 at 11:41 am

       This is really stretching to excuse Sally’s over the top reaction here. I can’t figure out how you get from “Someone other than Sally but a person who Sally work with is smoking pot and therefore Sally could get some kind of drug infraction even though she is not doing drugs and leaves the room and somehow that means Sally’s husband, who maybe is a doctor or something, loses his license.”

       Those steps just do not make sense. Sally leaves the room, is in her room. Whatever then happens or doesn’t happen to coworkers in manager’s room is not going to impact Sally’s imaginary husband.

       I am with you that the manager is an idiot and I have serious problems with that manager. But there is no rational way to excuse Sally’s total freak out.
       1. Agnodike* April 12, 2017 at 11:56 am

          +1

          I’m not aware of any medical licensing body that will review a member’s license because the member’s spouse’s boss committed a drug infraction.

          Also, surely if you are worried about your theoretical doctor spouse’s license, you would be less likely to want the police involved and the infraction recorded, since medical licensing boards generally don’t conduct their own independent surveillance of the families of members.
       2. Kj* April 12, 2017 at 12:26 pm

          Yeah, I’m in a profession where I can’t do a lot of things- pot is one of them, even though it is legal in my area! I’m not inclined to want to try pot, but it wouldn’t matter if I did- I can’t due to my job. That said, I can have friends/neighbors/relatives who use pot and I’m not going to be fired/lose my ability to practice due to their use. Sally had many choices ranging from “do pot” to “tell the hotel.” She could have called HR and let them know that manager was smoking a joint at a work event. She could have called her boss’s boss to inform them. She could have went to her own room and attended the conference the next day and reported her manager when they returned from the trip. She could have not reported at all, but told manager if she ever found out he was smoking on a work trip she would tell. She had choices, most of them MUCH better than “tell the hotel and flee the city like it is Sodom and Gomorrah.”
    5. Kate* April 12, 2017 at 11:46 am

       I agree. I am disappointed but not surprised by all the comments blaming Sally for getting the other two in trouble.

       In my experience, when other people have been smoking marijuana it is very obvious. Even with windows open the smell lingers a long time. If I was Sally my thinking would have been that on the second day when the cleaners come in while we are at the conference, they would smell it, and probably tell the hotel manager, who at the least would add a smoking cleaning charge, or call the police. Since she obviously couldn’t stop them from smoking, she could at least make it clear that she wasn’t with them and wouldn’t get in trouble for their actions.

       I wonder if OP could tell us what the room situation was? Were two or all three of them sharing a room? Even if not, I don’t think Sally did anything wrong by telling the hotel. The law is the law, and unless it is wildly unjust and onerous, i.e. kill all the fluffy bunnies you see or be put to death. It really isn’t that hard to not smoke pot and to not pressure your employees into it.
       1. Merida Ann* April 12, 2017 at 11:56 am

          “She could at least make it clear that she wasn’t with them and wouldn’t get in trouble for their actions.”

          Yeah, this is how I’m seeing Sally’s reaction. I wouldn’t say it was the best response necessarily, but if the hotel just had the reservations under the company name and she was in a panic to distance herself from the others in case someone else in the building reported the smell, I can see this being her logic.

          And then she freaks out even further when the hotel calls the police and she just wants to get away from the whole situation.
       2. Spring Flowers* April 12, 2017 at 12:43 pm

          Couldn’t someone passing by the room also have reported if Sally hadn’t done so? I say this because in the dorms at my college, a friend of mine, an RA, smelled it coming through the vents. The RAs in the building did a sweep of their respective floors until someone smelled it particularly strong near a room’s door.

          With that I don’t think they were 100% in the clear had Sally just returned to her room.
          1. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 1:23 pm

             Yeah, it really makes me laugh seeing all the comments about how everything would have been a-okay of Sally just hadn’t said anything.

             I have lived for years in an apartment building. My neighbors used to smoke pot in their apartment with the door shut. Our doors have super tight seals with storm/water guards on them (no idea why) but the hallway is connected. The pot smell went into the hallway every time they opened their door and even started to seep into my apartment from the hallway. Each apartment has two built-in air filters and big windows, and the hallway has its own air filter.

             The minute you stepped foot into our hallway, after each session, you could smell the pot smell, though it disappeared between sessions.
    6. MuseumChick* April 12, 2017 at 11:49 am

       She could have easily, gone to her own room, finished the conference, and then discussed this with the OP when she returned. Would she have had as much of a problem with, say, someone speeding in a company car on a work trip? It’s far more likely to have serious consequences, is illegal in all 50 states, and if she were a passenger she would have been much less able to get away from the illegal activity.

       I do not use, or have ever tried, any illegal drugs (yes, I’m a bit of a goody-two-shoes). Sally’s reaction was completely disproportional to the events. If I were the OP I would tell her the transfer was not possible and let Sally find a new job giving her whatever reference her work merits.

       I also think the OP should seriously considering firing the manager for having such poor judgement.
       1. smthing* April 12, 2017 at 2:21 pm

          Exactly. It’s not unreasonable for Sally to be upset about the manager’s behavior given the context, but her reaction was over the top. Speaking to management upon her return would have been far more appropriate.
    7. JeanB* April 12, 2017 at 11:54 am

       There’s no mandatory reporting for marijuana. Yes, the manager and coworker were idiots for smoking pot while on a business trip, but Sally way over-reacted. If I was offered pot by a coworker on a business trip, I would say no thanks, and also, are you guys crazy? This is a business trip!

       But I wouldn’t report it to anyone.
20. Dan* April 12, 2017 at 11:16 am

    Let Sally quit.

    How you handle your manager is a different story.
21. Obviously Anonymous* April 12, 2017 at 11:16 am

    Wow. Just WOW. That’s an incredible over reaction and I’d have a hard time working with someone who went to such an extreme.

    That said, I agree with Alison in that the manager did show extremely bad judgement. I live in Colorado and I can count the number of co-workers I’ve partaken with or in front of my fingers and still have several left over. Those were people I had worked with for many years, developed outside of work relationships with and the times when weed was present were on camping trips or nights out for non-work functions. Though I’ve been a user, proponent of legalization and occasional grower for over 20 years, I only even admitted to these things freely to coworkers after recreational use became legal. I’ve barely had more than a glass of wine during conferences and such and couldn’t imagine smoking with coworkers in a hotel room during a conference of all places.
    1. j-nonymous* April 12, 2017 at 4:36 pm

       Weed is legal in my state too and I am still uncomfortable admitting past or present usage in front of coworkers (and in particular, customers — as I’m a consultant).
22. Erin* April 12, 2017 at 11:16 am

    Yes, transfer Sally, and save yourself and your colleagues from having to work with this woman.
    1. Erin* April 12, 2017 at 11:18 am

       Oh I’m sorry, I missed where she threatened to quit. Let her do that, then. No unemployment benefits!
       1. Squeeble* April 12, 2017 at 11:20 am

          Yes. I half wonder if she’s bluffing about quitting, in which case, I say call her bluff and let her dig herself out of the mess she created.
          1. lawyerkate* April 12, 2017 at 3:42 pm

             I absolutely think she’s bluffing – this sort of brinksmanship is something I’ve seen over and over in employment situations. The result is almost never that the employee follows through on the threat.
23. BG* April 12, 2017 at 11:17 am

    Completely pro-marijuana here, whether for recreation or medicine, but the manager is an idiot for lighting up in a hotel room. That said, to say that Sally overreacted is an understatement. You alerted hotel staff and took a picture…what is this, second grade? She probably rats on neighbors to the HOA too. Get over yourself!
24. Not That Jane* April 12, 2017 at 11:17 am

    I remember some years ago, one of our students (I teach at a high school) got super upset that a few of his classmates were smoking pot, and reported it to the school. It turned out that the student’s abusive parent had been a heavy pot user. So I’m wondering if Sally’s extreme reaction is rooted in some sort of personal trauma around drug use or users.
    1. Erin* April 12, 2017 at 11:18 am

       Maybe, doesn’t excuse her irrational and unprofessional behavior.
    2. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 11:19 am

       That’s not an excuse, though. It means Sally needs to get her head straight about her own trauma, but it doesn’t justify getting people arrested.
       1. Anoname* April 12, 2017 at 12:11 pm

          If they are participating in an illegal act it is their own fault if they get in trouble.
    3. Not That Jane* April 12, 2017 at 11:22 am

       No, I agree she overreacted – and her colleagues shouldn’t have to pay for her personal trauma – I guess I’m just speculating on where this extreme reaction comes from. It’s hard for me to imagine anyone reacting this way absent some sort of backstory.
       1. kb* April 12, 2017 at 11:27 am

          I think there are people who perceive marijuana as on the same plane as meth. And I know that’s the way it was taught in my hs– all drugs are bad! Your brain will be a fried egg! Sally could just be very unfamiliar with recreational substances.
          1. Allie* April 12, 2017 at 11:38 am

             I got that too, but surely and adult gets more context from life in general, right? The number of whiffs of pot you get on the subway alone would teach you it is not rare.
             1. kb* April 12, 2017 at 11:53 am

                Right, yeah, most adults gain context at some point. I know I did, like, the first week of college, but I have friends from hs who haven’t. I left our rural home state for college when a lot of my friends didn’t– they opted for small, in-state, very religious institutions, so they just haven’t had the exposure. I don’t know if Sally’s situation could be similar? She may live somewhere where it’s easier to isolate yourself from things you’re unfamiliar with than in a big city.
                1. kb* April 12, 2017 at 11:55 am

                   (I’m not saying Sally’s reaction was 100%, just that I could totally see this happening with people I went to high school with)
                2. MegaMoose, Esq* April 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm

                   Yeah, I’ve got family and friends in a very conservative Midwest state, and even the liberal ones among them often have weird blind spots on things like marijuana. I have had multiple conversations with people who were shocked to find out that you can’t fatally OD on marijuana, for example.
                   1. kb* April 12, 2017 at 2:02 pm

                      I literally thought marijuana could kill you until college, because that’s what my hs taught me. They gave a ton of bad info on drugs, sexuality, and a lot of life-stuff. I wish more school systems would realize misleading/bad/nonexistent info ends up hurting more people than helping.
                   2. smthing* April 12, 2017 at 2:31 pm

                      The hotel manager calling the cops also makes me think that this is in a conservative area. Most hotels would send someone to the room to tell them to knock it off and maybe charge them a fee for smoking. Few hotels would want the drama of having people arrested in the middle of the night unless it was absolutely necessary.
    4. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 11:23 am

       That totally doesn’t matter. My parents are evangelical Christians and my mom is very mentally ill, and I don’t get to treat religious people and mentally ill people like crap because of it. Neither does Sally.
       1. Mazzy* April 12, 2017 at 12:02 pm

          Commenters in this blog regularly hypothesize like this “they’re in an abusive relationship” or “maybe they are autistic” so we can’t cherry pick when we make such guesses, just because we might not like the action taken
          1. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 12:11 pm

             I call that nonsense out, too (especially the assumptions that a rude jerk MUST be on the spectrum). In this case, though, trying to make her unreasonable actions seem reasonable is really a huge leap and, even if true, is super unreasonable.
             1. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 2:09 pm

                @Mazzy, true dat, Temperance is a pretty equal-opportunity caller-outer. :)
       2. Anoname* April 12, 2017 at 12:12 pm

          Reporting an ILLEGAL ACT is not treating people like crap.
    5. Collie* April 12, 2017 at 11:26 am

       I came in to say something similar. I have a pretty strong reaction to marijuana due to personal experience (though not that extreme) and even the smell makes me anxious and nauseous. While I do feel Sally acted in haste and probably should’ve thought a bit more about what she was doing, I’m disturbed by how many people are bashing Sally in the thread here.
    6. Lablizard* April 12, 2017 at 11:26 am

       That may explain her behavior, but doesn’t mean she deserves a transfer because she wants one.
    7. BG* April 12, 2017 at 2:19 pm

       I imagine the kid’s parent may also be alcoholic; I’m not trying to make light of his situation, but I can’t imagine a situation where smoking weed makes you abusive compared to alcohol or other drugs. That said, is he going to rat when he sees his college classmates getting drunk, if they’re underage? I hate to hear anyone go through such a situation, but that’s no excuse for squealing.
25. Grits McGee* April 12, 2017 at 11:18 am

    I wonder if part of Sally’s anger is that she feels she was put in a position of witnessing a crime (legally, maybe/maybe not morally) and putting her at risk of the consequences suffered by her colleagues? If she grew up with the same kind of anti-drug education I did, they really focus on the scared part of “scared straight” and she may have been under the impression that she was in danger of being held complicit legally or with your employer if she didn’t “narc”/take the steps she did. It’s still an extreme reaction, and it definitely merits a talk about what to do if she is in this position at work again, but it might be helpful to take this into consideration in order to understand if this was a one time over-reaction or if this is part of a broader pattern of misjudgment.
    1. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 11:53 am

       Yeah, I think Sally’s getting a bit of a hard ride here. No argument that she overreacted, but I think it’s hugely uncomfortable to be in a strange city with only two other people you know and then find they (including your manager) are doing something that’s illegal, that would get them in trouble with their job, and that could endanger your stay at the hotel. If this had happened to me early in my career I’d have been angry and upset.

       I think attitudes to pot have been changing and that it can be really hard for people for whom acceptance and use is a norm to understand the view of people to whom illegality is a big thing there, and vice versa. And in most everyday circumstances it doesn’t matter, but here it did; I also think that while there aren’t any good analogues, this isn’t simply about people’s stands on pot but about how legally gray areas get negotiated and how stressful it can be to be the non-speeder/non-phone-talker if you’re stuck on a business trip with your manager who’s blabbing away at eighty steering with her elbow on the wheel.
       1. Mary Dempster* April 12, 2017 at 12:17 pm

          “Endanger your stay at a hotel” is quite a stretch. What is the danger, exactly? They might have to go to another hotel?
          1. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 12:41 pm

             I don’t mean AK-47s come out, but I don’t even like having to pack up to move to a new *room* midstay. At a conference, getting kicked out could mean finding somebody’s floor to sleep on, because all the hotels around you are filled to the brim.

             And you’re talking from a position of knowing how all this works, where Sally probably doesn’t. I think a lot of people believe knowledge about hotel and police actions to pot is more widespread than it is, and it’s no blame to Sally if she’s not au fait with the details.
             1. Mary Dempster* April 12, 2017 at 1:04 pm

                I just think endangered is a strong word for having to potentially pack a back and move, that’s all.
                1. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 1:54 pm

                   But it’s correct–it could have endangered her hotel stay. I didn’t say it endangered her.
       2. Expat* April 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm

          Yeah, if I had been in Sally’s position in my early 20s, I would have been freaking the hell out. I was a DARE kid too and POT IS A DRUG!!1!

          Thought process: “My coworkers are addicts! Do they work for organized crime? Am I going to be arrested for being near them while they toke? Will I lose my job for not toking? What if I smell like pot now? Will I fail a drug test since I was nearby?” While I would not have Greyhounded out of town, I would have been positively sick with anxiety. Even as a 30-something who has partaken a few times and now understands the difference between heroin and pot, the whole incident would have weirded me the hell out. It was pretty uncool for the manager to behave like this, IMO.

          That said, Sally’s behavior was over the top. I think the LW would be wise to just let her quit and wash their hands of her.
    2. BadPlanning* April 12, 2017 at 12:02 pm

       I was thinking the same. That she felt like if she did not say anything, she could be held as guilty (or more) than the coworkers.

       I wonder if the manager or coworker were the driver for the trip and Sally felt unsafe (not here to argue about the validity of such a concern) and that prompted the bus trip home. Not saying the timing choice was good here.

       I also wonder about the previous relationship. Was this a formally good relationship and a casual, “Hey I like to relax and smoke, do you want some too?” or was this the last straw in a soul crushing DudeBro environment, “Com’n Sally, you need to pull out that stick and let down your hair.”
    3. Ima Introvert* April 12, 2017 at 1:05 pm

       This is also what I wondered. That Sally panicked over being present during such a “crime” she thought she could somehow be arrested or fired if it were discovered she was there and didn’t report it immediately. Then she descended into a full on flight/outrage mode for being put in such a “terrible” position, and is still stuck there. I’m not on Sally’s side at all, BTW…although the manager showed poor judgement, her reaction was wayyy over the top. Just wondering what drove her mentally. I would definitely NOT approve the transfer. It is not up to her to determine how the situation is handled now.
26. GreatLakesGal* April 12, 2017 at 11:19 am

    Let’s suppose medical marijuana was legal in OP’s state, and the manager had offered Sally some of his prescribed marijuana. I’m pretty sure that would make things worse, not better in this scenario.

    More to the point, this was a business trip. If I were the OP, I would be way, way more worried about the business consequences of the manager breaking the law while, again, on business, representing the company.

    (And yes, I’m pro-legalization.)

    Jeepers, a reprimand. This would be a fireable offense at my job.

    And Sally could have handled better by many miles.
    1. Meghan* April 12, 2017 at 11:28 am

       Yeah. I work in higher ed. Everyone in this scenario would either be fired or demoted, and wouldn’t get to travel anymore.
    2. hbc* April 12, 2017 at 11:29 am

       See, I’m cool with him lighting up or whatever he wants to do on his own time. He can go pick up some prostitutes, speed, use any legal or illegal drugs, bring his pack of dogs to a dog-free park. On his *own* time. Not with colleagues, definitely not with subordinates.
       1. hbc* April 12, 2017 at 11:31 am

          And to be clear, I don’t consider evenings after the conference to be company time. If he shows up where he needs to be for work, I don’t care where he’s been the night before–literally not my business.
          1. GreatLakesGal* April 12, 2017 at 12:12 pm

             Disagree here. They were at a business conference; presumably staying at the hotel where the conference was taking place. To me, that would imply representing my company while on premises.
             1. yasmara* April 12, 2017 at 3:00 pm

                My company would probably consider that company time as well, GreatLakesGal.
    3. AnonMurphy* April 12, 2017 at 12:33 pm

       Yup this is where I’m landing. I can’t even imagine my boss or grandboss lacking the judgment to light up, with subordinates, on a work trip, when it’s illegal in the state. The above example of buying alcohol for a minor subordinate is more equivalent than offering someone ‘of age’ a drink.

       Pro-legalization, nonuser, and I like to think if I’d been in Sally’s shoes I’d’ve shrugged and left it alone, but…without having been in the room to hear exactly how it went down, I don’t know how much was overreaction and not.

       In terms of how to handle Sally, I agree with Allison’s response.
       1. AnonMurphy* April 12, 2017 at 12:48 pm

          Updated to add – after reading downthread, I think the company has to be very careful about appearing to retaliate against Sally for reporting illegal activity.
    4. aebhel* April 12, 2017 at 1:56 pm

       Agreed. I would probably have fired the manager, at least, unless there was a compelling reason not to.

       Sally handled this very badly, and has continued to handle it badly.
27. Not Australian* April 12, 2017 at 11:19 am

    I think I’m kind of on Sally’s side here. I wouldn’t have done that myself, but there could be a very good reason for her being thrown into a panic at the very suggestion that people were doing any kind of drugs near her, and without knowing that context it’s really not possible to understand her motives. For example, I’ve known someone with alcoholics in the family who reacted very strongly to being offered a drink; she was literally quite terrified of the stuff, and something similar could well be in play here.

    So I’d think the first thing to do would be to discuss it with Sally in a totally non-judgmental way (if possible) and try to understand why she became so upset about it; it’s difficult to say for sure that she over-reacted without knowing a bit more background than you have so far. If she won’t discuss it, though, you’re left with taking the incident at face value and making whatever decision you feel is best for your organisation. I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that she over-reacted, though; it may be a more serious matter for her than it appears to you, but that really isn’t the same thing at all!
    1. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 11:27 am

       I’m a child of an alcoholic and I went through a period in my life where people getting drunk around me caused anxiety and I reacted very poorly. However, that’s on me. I needed to modulate my reaction. If I had freaked out to such a degree that it caused possibly long term consequences to someone (for example, a criminal record), that would have been entirely on me and my actions. Unless it was something that was an immediate danger to the person in question or others, there is no excuse for Sally’s reaction.
       1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:48 pm

          This. If you’re so triggered by a reasonably common real-life situation that you’re melting down, it’s on you to work on that – and I say that as a fellow adult child of an alcoholic. The world cannot endlessly accommodate every possible trigger.
          1. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 1:31 pm

             You think it is a “reasonably common real-life situation” to be pressured by your manager and colleague into illegally using marijuana on an overnight work trip in a strange city?
             1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:42 pm

                You’re forcing a lot of your own conjecture into your characterization – we have zero evidence that she was actually pressured, and we have zero evidence that she felt threatened by being in a strange city. Let’s argue this on its merits, without resorting to fallacies.

                But otherwise, yeah, it’s happened to me, both times at academic conferences, both times with a power imbalance. And I’ve had a coworker offer me weed. It’s not uncommon, particularly for those of us under 40 in states where it’s legal or at least widespread.
                1. CheeryO* April 12, 2017 at 3:30 pm

                   It’s not legal in their state, though. I know I’m in the same field as you based on your previous comments, and I have never even heard of someone smoking pot during a work conference, let alone been offered any (jerks! I kid…). I do think she overreacted, but it’s not fair to say that it’s a common, real-life situation.
                   1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 3:37 pm

                      What about simply being offered a drink or other substance? That’s common enough.
    2. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 11:27 am

       If someone is so oversensitive that they freak out after being offered a glass of wine, the problem is with the person, not the glass of wine. Same principle applies here.

       On its face, there is evidence that Sally overreacted. I have no problem with her reporting her colleagues to the company for smoking weed. I do have a problem with her a.) alerting the hotel and b.) involving the police. I also find her reaction to be outsized; there was seriously no reason for her to leave the conference, wasting the company’s funds and time.
       1. Anoname* April 12, 2017 at 12:16 pm

          No it is not the same principle. Alcohol is legal. Marijuana is not.

          Sally handled this badly, absolutely, but seriously–her coworkers were engaged in illegal activity.
          1. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 12:18 pm

             Other things that have been illegal at various points in the past:
             – interracial relationships
             – sodomy
             – reading banned books

             At a time and place where those things were illegal, would you defend reporting coworkers for those?
             1. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 12:20 pm

                (And sorry, that’s not directed particularly at you, Anoname — just generally to everyone taking the “but it’s illegal” position.)
             2. Evan Þ* April 12, 2017 at 1:15 pm

                If they were doing it on a work trip and inviting colleagues to participate? I wouldn’t object.
             3. Anony* April 12, 2017 at 1:15 pm

                Alison, I think comparing these things is a bit offensive. Suppressing your sexual orientation is the same as refraining from smoking weed? Choosing between giving up on the literal love of your life because they’re a different race and being arrested for an interracial marriage is VERY different from simply not smoking weed. For the record, I’m fine with weed. But I really resent the comparison. Being arrested for having gay sex- something related to your sexual orientation that is part of a person’s identity -is different from enjoying a joint now and then. Sooooooo different. Having to not smoke weed because it’s illegal is a bummer, sure! But there are plenty of other ways to enjoy yourself if you’re afraid of being arrested for marijuana. Not the same for people in gay/interracial relationships. I hope this makes sense.
                1. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 1:32 pm

                   Agreed!
                2. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 1:37 pm

                   People who use marijuana to deal with serious illnesses face the risk of being arrested due to our dumb attitudes about the drug. Yes, I do see a relationship and it’s a valid thing to bring up.
                   1. AnonAcademic* April 12, 2017 at 2:47 pm

                      Parents risk losing custody of their children if they medicate them using marijuana for conditions such as severe epilepsy. It’s a civil rights issue.
                3. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 1:41 pm

                   I disagree. Drug laws, and especially laws against using or possessing marijuana, have long been used to unjustly target communities of color. It’s also why sentences for possessing powder cocaine were lighter than sentences for crack cocaine. This is absolutely a civil rights issue.
                   1. Marvel* April 12, 2017 at 4:45 pm

                      Sure–but the nature of the crime is not intrinsically civil rights related, which I think is the point being made here.
                4. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 1:43 pm

                   Of course they’re not the same thing. The comparison is about arresting people for things that the government has no business involving itself in.
                   1. Anony* April 12, 2017 at 2:02 pm

                      But your argument relies on the comparison. I think its totally valid to compare using marijuana to reading banned books. And of course drinking alcohol during prohibition, very similar issues and it’s fair to compare them. Comparing the illegality of weed and the illegality of sodomy is wrong. It’s offensive to members of the gay community. I drink alcohol and probably have a few glasses of wine per week on average. If alcohol suddenly became illegal, I would disagree with that decision, just like I disagree that weed is illegal. But I wouldn’t be on my deathbed in 40 years with tears in my eyes saying “I just can’t believe I had to live my whole life without wine/weed.” That’s ridiculous. However, if I had to break up with my boyfriend and marry a woman to cover up my sexuality for fear of sodomy laws, that would definitely be something that would definitely be something I regretted for life! You’re right that they are both things the government shouldn’t be regulating. But bringing up sodomy and interracial relationships in your argument for legalizing marijuana implies they are similar and I’m telling you that it’s demeaning to many people, and I hope you at least consider why that might be
                      1. Vin Packer* April 12, 2017 at 2:09 pm

                         I’m on board with this. Banned books is a great analogy. Interracial marriage, no.

                         (And I’m one of those who thinks Sally is *bananas.*)
                      2. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 2:19 pm

                         Banning books is rooted in banning free speech which isn’t really the same.
                      3. Marvel* April 12, 2017 at 4:41 pm

                         I have to agree with this in the strongest possible terms. Alison, you are usually good about not allowing these sorts of comparisons here, but I think your judgement is clouded in this case.
                      4. Marvel* April 12, 2017 at 4:43 pm

                         To be clear: I am very much pro-legalization, but I think comparing pot usage to human rights infringement is incredibly tone deaf and offensive.
                   2. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 2:06 pm

                      That argument could be made for just about anything. Should the government involve itself in deciding what you build and how you build on property you own, or in criminalizing teacher/student relationships between two adults, in criminalizing drug distribution, the list goes on forever.
             4. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 2:11 pm

                If my manager invited me to partake in sodomy in their hotel room, I think my reaction would be very similar to Sally’s.

                And, yes, I would support her for reporting it.
                1. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 2:22 pm

                   I shouldn’t laugh but I did when I read this
             5. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 2:14 pm

                I’m really not comfortable equating pot use with any of those things. It’s like saying that current laws on overtime, murder, or signaling turns should be ignored because slavery was once legal, and that was wrong.

                Compare it to banned recreational substances–alcohol during prohibition, or opioids which used to be available over the counter, or meth which is currently as illegal. Being “a person who likes to drink beer (or shoot heroin) for fun” is not just like being someone of a particular race or sexual orientation.
             6. Notlisa* April 12, 2017 at 2:42 pm

                If my manager asked me to his hotel room to engage in sodomy, YES, I would report that!

                Alison, you don’t seem to be making a distinction btw illegal behavior in general and being asked by your supervisor to his hotel room to engage in illegal behavior. Since this is a work specific situation, and more specifically, a business travel.situation, just throwing out a list of bad laws doesn’t seem on point.
                1. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 3:08 pm

                   Yeah, Alison, I think you’re really minimizing the pressure that Sally would’ve felt when her manager asked her to participate in an illegal activity at a work event. That is a pressured situation, regardless of how you feel about the law.

                   It’s really different than a) Sally calling the police because she smelled smoke in their room b) Sally freaking out because they admitted to smoking or c) Sally freaking out because they participated in civil disobedience on their own time.

                   FWIW, I have been offered pot and declined it, have watched others partake, have had coworkers who I know partake, have had coworkers and superiors say they’re for legalization, and all of that is okay with me. I would be extremely uncomfortable if my manager offered me pot and would go to HR (and they would be fired.)
          2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:35 pm

             Illegal doesn’t automatically bother me.
28. Vaca* April 12, 2017 at 11:19 am

    WTF? How have you not fired this loon? Seriously, making a big problem out of a little problem and then turning yourself into a martyr? Guess what: most of the world has tried marijuana. She’s going to pull this on something else if you let her get away with it. Fire her, for cause, and tell her in no uncertain terms that her behavior is totally unacceptable.
    1. ZSD* April 12, 2017 at 11:25 am

       I’m not sure if it’s true that “most of the world has tried marijuana.” Only 43% of US adults say they’ve ever tried it. I don’t know what the rate is worldwide.
       1. Agnodike* April 12, 2017 at 11:33 am

          A Gallup poll that also collects demographic (i.e. identifying) information is probably going to more accurately measure the number of people who are willing to admit to illegal activity than the number of people who have actually performed that illegal activity.
          1. Evan Þ* April 12, 2017 at 12:16 pm

             There are well-known statistical tools to correct for that; I’d assume that survey includes them. (E.g., have your subject flip a coin without showing it to you. Say that if it comes up heads, he should tell you he’s done the illegal activity; if it comes up tails, he should tell you the truth. Then, when you’re done, throw out a number of “Yes” answers equal to half your population.)
             1. Trout 'Waver* April 12, 2017 at 12:48 pm

                If you don’t already know the truth about if someone committed a particular crime, there’s no way to verify if their answer is truthful or not.

                I would certainly never confess to any illegal activities, even in an anonymous survey such as you describe.
                1. Evan Þ* April 12, 2017 at 1:17 pm

                   OK then, I guess it does still undercount to some degree, though much, much smaller than just flat-out asking: in a survey designed that way, there’s no way to verify if you said “yes” because you really did, or “yes” because the coin came up heads.
             2. Agnodike* April 12, 2017 at 2:41 pm

                Given the reams of literature describing the problems with reporting bias around illegal activity, I would make no such assumption without having read a detailed summary of the research methods, and neither should you.
29. Arduino* April 12, 2017 at 11:20 am

    Ok I am pro legal pot – but in no way shape or form should the boss imply that alerting the hotel which ultimately led to arrest not have happened. It is illegal and sugeesting that it’s not ok to report illegal behavior is not a stance the company should be in.

    If you can talk about leaving thee conference – I would start by asking why she felt she had to leave – then maybe discuss the behavior you prefer there but only if you can stay away from suggesting she was wrong to report.
    1. Arduino* April 12, 2017 at 11:24 am

       And wow there were 0 comments when I typed this.
    2. GreatLakesGal* April 12, 2017 at 11:27 am

       Oh, good point.
       My job has a corporate compliance hotline for reporting unethical or illegal behavior.
    3. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 11:28 am

       She reported it to the hotel, which did lead to their arrest. As far as I know, when it comes to reporting illegal activities, you’re first supposed to start with your company or a governing body. Not the hotel where you’re staying. So this still doesn’t fly for me.
       1. Arduino* April 12, 2017 at 11:46 am

          I highly doubt it is a law that – when employees are breaking the law you must first report it to their boss before others.

          A company suggesting not to report illegal activities of co workers to authorities – in this case the harmed party (hotel) is problematic.

          I also find it interesting that folks are assuming she wanted to get them arrested then left “cause pot”

          My read was more “oh shit they called the cops on my boss because I was nice enough to give them a heads up about illegal activity on their premises” panic

          And ultimatum as amisguided attempt to fix issue of “I got my boss arrested no way he does not hold that against me”.
    4. paul* April 12, 2017 at 11:29 am

       Oh damn, I hadn’t even thought of those optics.

       “yes, we expect you to report illegal behavior unless it’s illegal behavior we don’t care about”
       1. GreatLakesGal* April 12, 2017 at 11:33 am

          +1
       2. Saturnalia* April 12, 2017 at 12:17 pm

          This point is very important, and I hope it’s not lost amidst all the debate over legalization. LW needs to be *very* careful about how things are worded when talking to both Sally and the manager to avoid this perception.
          1. Lablizard* April 12, 2017 at 12:33 pm

             Personally, I would start with leaving on Grayhound in the middle of the night before checking in with the office to see if there was a business need for someone to be at the conference. Then I would address the transfer ultimatum and why she thought that was appropriate
             1. Yorick* April 12, 2017 at 1:29 pm

                +1. I didn’t consider that probably no one is at the conference now that 2 have been arrested and Sally Greyhounded out.
       3. Aurion* April 12, 2017 at 12:28 pm

          Doubly so when many commenters want to fire Sally. Whether or not you agree with the law, firing Sally is really, really not a good look for the company.
          1. Trout 'Waver* April 12, 2017 at 12:51 pm

             But, Sally will be persona non grata at work after this. I’m very much anti-legalization (but pro decriminalization), and I still would have trouble working with someone who did what Sally did.
             1. Aurion* April 12, 2017 at 1:00 pm

                Absolutely, but at least she could answer honestly questions like “have you ever been fired from a job?”

                The company’s treatment of Sally should not be harsher than the company’s treatment of Sally’s boss, and it sounds like they have no intentions of firing Sally’s boss.
       4. AnonMurphy* April 12, 2017 at 12:36 pm

          Yes to this.
    5. Parenthetically* April 12, 2017 at 12:03 pm

       “sugeesting that it’s not ok to report illegal behavior is not a stance the company should be in.”

       “If you see something, say something, but only if it’s like sexual harassment or something everyone agrees about, because that’s definitely how the law is supposed to work, right?”
       1. Anna* April 12, 2017 at 1:44 pm

          If you see something you should report it to your freakin’ manager because that’s how adult humans who aren’t overreacting do things.

          Also, literally nobody was being harmed so it’s not the same thing, but thanks for seeing it as black and white as it isn’t.
          1. Parenthetically* April 12, 2017 at 2:48 pm

             Boy, I like the people here but some of y’all are getting hella hostile and sarcastic about this.

             I assume that it’s pretty easy not to smoke weed with direct reports in the hotel room your employer paid for while on a work trip. And I’d be willing to lay money that nobody on this thread has ever done anything close to that stupid.

             Sally overreacted. Ridiculously. But how does it look for the company to say, “Yeah, the person who reported this illegal activity is now no longer with our company, but the people who broke the law and got arrested for it totally are.”?
             1. yasmara* April 12, 2017 at 3:04 pm

                Yes, this is absolutely the line my company would take, Parenthetically. I just keep thinking of the article that could be written with those optics. Nope.
          2. Arduino* April 12, 2017 at 3:33 pm

             I argue giving the hotel a heads up was the adult thing to do.

             People are pretending this is harmless – but in the US you can indeed be held liable or arrested for possession if you are traveling with someone even if you “didn’t know”

             Also since the boss was smoking – who should Sally have reported it too?
30. Snow* April 12, 2017 at 11:21 am

    Whether you think Sally was overreacting or not – they were doing something illegal. I don’t think I’d be comfortable working for a manager who’d I’d reported doing something illegal, that is not someone I’d want doing my reviews and determining my raises. Possibly he could be objective but given the judgement he has shown thus far I don’t think it’s a stretch to say he wouldn’t be?
    1. Meghan* April 12, 2017 at 11:26 am

       I agree. I think at the least, Sally needs a different manager, but I’d totally grant a transfer if there was another department that would take her.
       1. Liane* April 12, 2017 at 12:12 pm

          Not a manager but I think OP is going to have to use up a lot of their capital to find another department, once the story gets around. Because other departments will probably think, “Sally is a drama-llama whose judgment is hardly better than that of the arrested employees and who needs that on their team?”
          1. Kj* April 12, 2017 at 12:29 pm

             This. I wouldn’t want to work with Sally- not because she ‘told’ on her boss, but because she fled the city and abandoned her work responsibilities over someone offering her pot.

             I’d have her on my team if she had told HR about her boss and attended the conference the next day as she was supposed to. But not when she flees the city over something like this. This is drama-creation at its finest.
             1. Lablizard* April 12, 2017 at 12:35 pm

                You nailed it. For me the reporting isn’t the problem, all of her behavior after that is the problem
       2. Roscoe* April 12, 2017 at 12:39 pm

          Would you really want to be the department or manager she got transferred to? I mean, no one will want to be around her for (founded) fears that she would report every little moral injustice she found. She should go, no good will come of her staying
          1. Tuxedo Cat* April 12, 2017 at 4:02 pm

             I’m pro-marijuana legalization and I don’t think Sally was necessarily wrong for reporting her manager and coworker, even to the hotel. I think the issues I would see are how she fled the conference and how she’s demanding further punishment. If I were in another department, I’d be worried that Sally’s demands are law.
    2. Jan Levinson* April 12, 2017 at 11:28 am

       +1
    3. Leah* April 12, 2017 at 11:28 am

       This, completely.
    4. E* April 12, 2017 at 12:08 pm

       I agree, being able to work professionally together after this incident is near impossible for Sally and the manager. If the company can’t feasibly offer a transfer, then Sally will likely quit. A manager who offers an employee drugs of any sort should be reviewed, I’d think. Regardless of Sally’s reaction, the manager wasn’t acting as a good representative of the company.
31. Leah* April 12, 2017 at 11:21 am

    I disagree with most of the advice here. Whether you think marijuana is no big deal, it is illegal in the LW’s state. Lots of people enter into agreements that require zero drug use, such as volunteering at certain schools, being in certain organizations and accepting some scholarships. If she is married to a licensed healthcare professional, she can screw up their license if she is caught with drugs. She may have overreacted but that is her prerogative and none of you know why, so I think the answer here is to transfer her. Her manager and the other employee are idiots.
    1. A.* April 12, 2017 at 12:17 pm

       This is true, we don’t have the full background here. A team lead with the horrible judgment to smoke a joint with a direct report on a work trip where they are representing the company could also have the horrible judgment to brag about it later, and if word got out that Sally was present and didn’t report it, it could reflect really poorly on her and possibly harm her or her family.

       So I think she was absolutely right to report this incident to her company. Reporting it to the hotel and running out on the conference seems like overkill, but we don’t know the whole story. I think if she’s otherwise a good employee and the transfer she put in for would be a good fit for her skills, they should just transfer her.

       But they should also take a hard look at whether that team lead is fit to be supervising anyone or if he needs to be demoted after what he did. Does the company really want to send a message to employees that unprofessional, even illegal, behavior on work travel is okay and the person who doesn’t agree with it is the one who gets to leave the company if they don’t like it?
    2. BookishMiss* April 12, 2017 at 12:40 pm

       My parents are both educators, and all my high school parties were fueled by caffeine and sparkling grape juice on pain of banishment for this exact reason. The one time someone decided to break that rule, he was removed and no longer welcome. We’re all old enough for alcohol now, but the rest still holds. So I can understand her anxiety about being around drugs, but I think her reaction was a little over the top. Given what happened, I don’t think that team should exist anymore, and I think any reprimand Sally faces should be about her leaving the conference without notifying the company. That has business implications of its own, and you’d need to address it even without the illegal activity that preceded it.
    3. Stop That Goat* April 12, 2017 at 12:43 pm

       Regardless of Sally’s reasoning, ultimatums isn’t how you work through problems at work.
32. Nobody Here By That Name* April 12, 2017 at 11:23 am

    Speaking as someone in the hotel industry, I feel like we’re missing part of the story. A guest smoking a joint, in and of itself, is not something to call the cops over. Send security up to check out, sure, but the police? There would have to have been something either seen or going on in the room to necessitate the escalation to police intervention. A single smoked joint (which one assumes would’ve been gone by that point, but even so) would not do it. The scent of pot smoke alone would also not do it.

    Likewise, what town was this that the police had nothing better to do than to investigate the single joint being smoked in a hotel room?

    Full caveat that I am all for legalization for recreational and medicinal use, and I’m not saying Sally didn’t overreact. But for the hotel to have involved the cops and for the cops to have gone all the way to an arrest strongly suggests to me that there was more than a friendly joint being offered around.

    (Heck, if nothing else I’d be rethinking this manager’s performance in light of them being a dumbass: you’ve got pot in your room, you know you’re in trouble from hotel security, and you don’t try flushing the evidence??)
    1. Allypopx* April 12, 2017 at 11:25 am

       That does seem extreme. From the hotels POV it’s not great business sense to call the cops on your paying guests without handling it in house first.
       1. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 11:29 am

          Exactly. By calling the cops, you’re showing other guests that you have crime in your hotel, and you’re going to piss off the people who you are ratting out.
       2. Nobody Here By That Name* April 12, 2017 at 11:37 am

          It all depends on what the incident is. I mean there’s the issue of covering our own butts too (no smoking pun intended). The SOP isn’t try to handle in house before calling the cops but rather determine if the cops need to be called at all. For a guest complaining that another guest is smoking pot – picture of a joint or no – you’d want security to confirm that. If the joint is gone and the guest doesn’t light up again, problem is solved. There’s no need to escalate beyond that from the hotel’s POV beyond writing up the incident report, same as if they’d been told of a noise complaint.

          Getting the cops involved means, unless this particular hotel has an unusually strict SOP, something about the incident was more than just a joint. For example, I wonder if maybe the manager had the joint and also enough loose pot visible to cause a concern. Given that he and the coworker were arrested for possession, this may be the case. One thing hotels are often on the lookout for is people dealing drugs out of their rooms (this and meth cooking are not uncommon). So seeing enough loose pot in the room may have set off those alarm bells, necessitating the call.

          To which I again go back to the manager just being a dumbass, if that was the case.
          1. ByLetters* April 12, 2017 at 12:07 pm

             Came to the comments to post from the hotel perspective myself!

             My first thought was actually that Sally must have made a very loud and very public scene about the issue. The hotel is going to be SUPER reluctant to call the cops for the reasons you’ve pointed out, but if you’ve got a guest at your front desk who is publicly shouting about something, I can easily picture the employees capitulating rather than look like they’re knowingly allowing illegal activities to take place. I very very much doubt this was a case where Sally just happened to mention it to the desk and they took it from there, given her other behaviors.
          2. smthing* April 12, 2017 at 2:39 pm

             Along with Sally’s actions, it makes me think that the hotel may have been in a very conservative part of the country.
    2. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 11:29 am

       I’m wondering if Sally is the one who actually called the police, because, yeah, I worked Front Desk at a hotel for a period of time, and we didn’t call the police for things like this. The only time we called the cops was when a belligerent guest punched someone.
       1. Doe-Eyed* April 12, 2017 at 11:50 am

          Even if Sally called them, realistically “my two adult friends are smoking a single joint quietly in a private room” is not going to draw the most rapid response from 911, if they even come at all.
          1. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 11:55 am

             I’m from a pretty small town, and honestly, that would be the most excitement the local cops got in some time. Depending on where this conference is, I can see how it became a potential Big Drug Bust.
             1. Doe-Eyed* April 12, 2017 at 11:56 am

                True, I suppose, though most places big enough to host a conference are big enough that the cops have a little more to do. :)
                1. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 12:55 pm

                   Hey now, we know that some places host conferences which don’t even have their own airport.

                   I think the moral of this story is to stop having conferences in Naples FL. It always ends in trouble.
                   1. Doe-Eyed* April 12, 2017 at 1:00 pm

                      Most things in FL end in trouble, to be fair!
          2. Elsajeni* April 12, 2017 at 3:26 pm

             That’s assuming that Sally would have described the situation in about the most low-key, non-alarmist way possible, though — based on what we know about the rest of her actions, that does not seem… super likely.
       2. LawPancake* April 12, 2017 at 12:09 pm

          Yeah, that’s what I was wondering. I worked in hotels in undergrad and we would never call the cops for pot (unless they were massive jerks to the staff…). Usually we’d just send security to tell them to knock it off. Although, if we had a clearly upset woman at the front desk demanding someone call the police we probably would have.
          1. Doe-Eyed* April 12, 2017 at 12:13 pm

             I was also wondering just how much pot there was. In a lot of states a personal amount wouldn’t likely lead to an arrest, you’d get a ticket unless you really mouthed off at the cops.
             1. Trout 'Waver* April 12, 2017 at 12:56 pm

                I really hate to bring this up, but the race of the people matters. Black males are much, much likelier to get arrested for a personal amount of marijuana than white people in many (but not all) jurisdictions. You can’t make that a blanket statement.
                1. Doe-Eyed* April 12, 2017 at 1:01 pm

                   That’s a fair observation too, though I was thinking the obvious ‘business’ nature of the clients may have swayed in their favor (fairly or unfairly).
                2. Nobody Here By That Name* April 12, 2017 at 2:24 pm

                   I did wonder about race as well.
       3. Sunshine on a cloudy day* April 12, 2017 at 12:19 pm

          Or that Sally insisted that the hotel involve the police – seems in line with her other behavior (fleeing the city, and onjecting the colleagues not being fired)
    3. paul* April 12, 2017 at 11:30 am

       I wonder if business hotels are stricter about this?

       I tend to stay in cheap hotels for personal travel–small paychecks y’all–and doubt most of them would give a damn, but some of the business hotels I’ve stayed in probably would. Marriott’s in particular seem to be death on smoking in rooms in general.
       1. Nobody Here By That Name* April 12, 2017 at 11:41 am

          Some hotels might be stricter than others depending on the franchise and the vibe they’re trying to promote. W hotels, for instance, tend to be more rock and roll compared to a Renaissance. Either way the general SOP would be to suss the situation out first and only call the cops if needed.

          Of course this is also assuming they were at a franchise hotel.
       2. ByLetters* April 12, 2017 at 12:03 pm

          Nope. No difference. Calling the cops causes a Scene and we Do Not Like Scenes. Sure, business hotels will slap a smoking fee on your bill in a heartbeat (after we have photographic evidence, like cigarette butts in the bathroom), but hotels don’t tend to care what it is that you’re smoking.
          1. LawPancake* April 12, 2017 at 12:11 pm

             I was thinking she caused a scene big enough herself that the hotel staff felt like they had to call the cops.
             1. ByLetters* April 12, 2017 at 12:29 pm

                Yeah, that was my immediate take on the situation. I can’t really picture it any other way.
       3. Nolan* April 12, 2017 at 12:53 pm

          Through nerd convention work, I’ve been privy to several similar incidents involving a convention center adjacent 4 star chain hotel, and the reaction from the post is not similar. In one case there was someone who had obviously been smoking weed in his room. A third party with a bone to pick did report him but the hotel basically said unless they caught him red-handed, the most they’d do was charge him the cleaning fee.

          Last year a group was kicked out of their room for smoking cigarettes in it, but only because they were smoking so much they set off the smoke detectors twice, causing the fire to make two unnecessary trips to the hotel.

          It does seem weird to me that the hotel would call the police in this case, makes me wonder what actually happened, what was said, etc. Not sure if OP left those details out for privacy, or doesn’t have them, but that all seems very important to resolving the situation.
          1. Nolan* April 12, 2017 at 12:55 pm

             Causing the fire *department* to make unnecessary trips. Sigh.
    4. Mustache Cat* April 12, 2017 at 11:48 am

       On the other hand, that actually makes me wonder whether Sally called the police herself.
33. JoAnna* April 12, 2017 at 11:23 am

    I wonder if there is some backstory here we’re not privy to – maybe a relative of Sally’s smoked marijuana and ended up wandering into the path of an oncoming train or something. If marijuana contributed to a trauma in her life, that could explain her strong feelings against it.

    That being said, all parties involved in this situation behaved badly, and Allison’s advice is spot on.
34. Meghan* April 12, 2017 at 11:24 am

    It’s incredibly poor judgement to smoke weed on a business trip in a state where weed is illegal. Smoke weed at home in front of people you can trust not to massively overreact, not in front of your direct reports.
35. Allypopx* April 12, 2017 at 11:25 am

    From a personal stance, I think Sally is overreacting. From a professional stance, it’s not realistic that these working relationships are salvageable, and if I want to retain her as an employee, I’d talk about future behavior re: leaving the conference, and try to get her a transfer.

    From a professional stance I’d be much more concerned about the team manager and following the reprimand would be watching him with a close eye.
    1. Bork* April 12, 2017 at 11:31 am

       Took the words out of my mouth, especially the these relationships are not salvageable part.

       Transfer Sally.
36. Ellen N.* April 12, 2017 at 11:25 am

    I don’t think that Sally overreacted. I believe that marijuana should be legalized. However, it is not in the state they were in. Apparently, the two employees were already in the hotel room with the manager when he offered the marijuana. This means that Sally could have gotten in trouble with the hotel management for smoking in the hotel room if it was a non-smoking room and with law enforcement. It is widely believed that second hand marijuana smoke can make you fail a drug test. A Google search produces mixed results about whether this is a myth. If Sally believed it to be true and was being tested for any reason (employment, child custody, whatever) she might have feared the consequences of a negative drug test. The manager should have not offered to partake in illegal activity with his reports. I have been in many situations where if a manager asked me to do something it read as pressure. Also, I assume that when Sally told the hotel front desk personnel she didn’t know that they would call law enforcement.
    1. Jessie the First (or second)* April 12, 2017 at 12:22 pm

       She was capable of just not being in the room with them.

       There was zero risk that she’d be ingesting second-hand smoke, or that she’d be in the room for any possible negative consequences. All she had to do was walk out the room once she saw the joint come out, and go to her own room. Problem solved.
       1. AYN* April 12, 2017 at 1:14 pm

          What about being in the car with them if they were in possession?
       2. CheeryO* April 12, 2017 at 3:40 pm

          Right, and they were capable of just not partaking during a work conference. I’m really not trying to be snarky here, but Sally is really getting thrown under the bus considering we don’t really know the particulars of how things unfolded.
37. Turtlewings* April 12, 2017 at 11:26 am

    I guess I’ll be the voice of the opposition and say I find Sally’s reaction understandable. I would definitely be very shaken and upset if my supervisor offered me an illegal drug, and no, it almost wouldn’t matter which one. I never thought “drugs are bad” was a controversial statement before. They’re illegal, addictive and can very seriously mess up your life — yes, even marijuana. Alerting the hotel and, through them, the police, may have been extreme, but technically speaking she witnessed a crime. And refusing to work with the supervisor afterward — well, that’s definitely dramatic, but it’s hard to imagine that having them work together now is a good idea anyway.
    1. Agnodike* April 12, 2017 at 11:37 am

       “Drugs are bad” is indeed a controversial statement, because the appropriate way to address the use of mind-altering substances that are currently illegal is a subject of significant and complex debate and scholarship. It’s not as simple as “illegal drugs are bad; legal drugs are fine for some reason,” and while there are significant health risks associated with the use of many illegal drugs, it’s not clear that legislative prohibition is doing anything to remedy that problem. There’s no shortage of information on this issue and why it’s so complicated, if you’re interested.
    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:51 pm

       “They’re illegal, addictive and can very seriously mess up your life — yes, even marijuana.”

       So can alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, painkillers or any number of other completely legal substances and activities. It’s absolutely controversial that “drugs are bad” because it’s a statement generalized to the point of useless platitude.

       And c’mon. It’s not like she witnessed an assault or a murder. Yeah, technically she witnessed a crime, but if you’re upset by someone smoking and giggling, get a grip.
       1. K.* April 12, 2017 at 1:08 pm

          I cannot even count the number of episodes of Intervention I’ve seen where someone is an opiate addict & got hooked because they were prescribed opiates for pain after an accident, particularly grueling birth, etc. We’re in the throes of an opiate epidemic and legally prescribed pain medications is at the root of it.
       2. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 1:43 pm

          Caffeine can’t. Tobacco can kill you, but people don’t end up on the streets begging for money because of tobacco.
          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:55 pm

             In fact, my parents are acquainted with someone who became homeless for a time after their finances collapsed following a ruinous battle with lung cancer. If that’s too much of an edge case, there’s also plenty of abusers of very legal alcohol who end up on the streets begging.
          2. Agnodike* April 12, 2017 at 2:46 pm

             They do end up on the streets begging for money because of alcohol addiction, though, and alcohol withdrawal is one of the only forms of withdrawal that can be fatal, instead of just very uncomfortable. The other most common fatal withdrawal syndrome is caused by benzodiazepines, which are also legal. (And, for the record, although you’re right that it’s very rare, there ARE documented cases of fatal caffeine intoxication.)
             1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 2:48 pm

                Particularly though people getting ahold of lab-grade crystallized caffeine and consuming it in doses far exceeding anything found in natural substances.
                1. Agnodike* April 12, 2017 at 3:04 pm

                   Yes, you’d have real trouble drinking enough coffee to kill you – or I’d be long dead by now! I think all the documented cases are either overdoses of medical caffeine or over-the-counter caffeine pills, but don’t quote me on that.
    3. calonkat* April 12, 2017 at 1:10 pm

       I take serious issue with the statement “drugs are bad”. My daughter went through DARE and came home with that sort of nonsense. I showed her the inhaler she used, the antibiotic bottle she had finished the week before for a lung infection, grandma’s high blood pressure prescription and we had a talk about how drugs are developed for REASONS and it’s the MISUSE of drugs that is a problem.

       I’ve nearly lost jobs because I refuse to sign blanket statements about “not using drugs” (a job in the fall without antihistamines is not to be considered!) I am for full legalization, btw (not just marijuana). Prescribe/control/tax it all!!! (and when someone has late stage cancer, I think they should get to try anything they want!) Never used any drug recreationally though. Got a bit lightheaded with pain meds once, didn’t like it :P
       1. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 1:49 pm

          I went through DARE too, and I don’t remember ever being told that “all drugs, including legal medications prescribed by a doctor, are bad”. I have also never heard of a drug-use contract that requires you to stop using legal medications, just illegal drugs. The one exception is if you are operating a forklift or something like that, in which case antihistamines can actually be detrimental to the operator’s abilities.
          1. calonkat* April 12, 2017 at 1:57 pm

             Garment manufacturer in small town in Midwest, small temp agency in Midwest. Just blanket statement to sign regarding “no drugs”. Nearly lost both jobs when I insisted on inserting the world “illegal”. The garment manufacturer insisted on running it by their lawyer!! (which may have made it harder for me to get jobs in that town after that, I’m sure the topic in every church was that I was using drugs.) And DARE in the same small town.
             The funny thing was that illegal drug use, and legal drug abuse were so incredibly common! The number of alcoholics and addicts is truly shocking, but they are good church-going people, so it’s accepted. The average small town in my part of the midwest has an astounding number of churches and bars for the population.
38. Elsa the snow queen* April 12, 2017 at 11:27 am

    You’d be surprised at how many people grow up in sheltered lives and do not have exposure to drugs. For those people, there’s no opportunity for them to develop an appropriate understanding and to learn how to behave if they do not want to partake. It’s more common than you think. If you consider that Sally’s only exposure to weed was to hear about it on the evening news, and always connected to arrests… her response seems to make sense. Not saying I agree. Just saying it’s hard to cope when you’ve never been in that situation before.
    1. Anonymous 40* April 12, 2017 at 2:34 pm

       Thank you. I think Sally way overreacted, but I think the level of judgment she’s getting in these comments is way over the top.
39. Agnodike* April 12, 2017 at 11:27 am

    I think the crux of the issue from a workplace perspective is whether or not Sally was indeed “pressured.” It’s already a tricky dynamic when a manager offers a subordinate something, because the subordinate might not feel comfortable saying no, so Sally might genuinely have felt pressured to perform an illegal act, and that’s a manager problem. On the other hand, if the conversation was structured in such a way that she felt free to say no and her reaction was informed by a desire to punish people whom she perceived as behaving incorrectly, that’s a Sally problem.

    If you have a manager problem, I think there is a case to be made for transferring Sally, since it’s reasonable to feel uncomfortable working for someone who doesn’t respect your reasonable “no.” If you have a Sally problem, it needs to be made very clear to Sally that her reaction was really disproportionate and that it’s reasonable for her colleagues not to want to work with someone who had them arrested.

    I presume, of course, that Sally doesn’t do anything illegal, ever, like speed or sample grapes at the supermarket, and that therefore her discomfort comes from a consistent moral standpoint on her relationship to the law.
    1. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 12:59 pm

       I presume, of course, that Sally doesn’t do anything illegal, ever, like speed or sample grapes at the supermarket, and that therefore her discomfort comes from a consistent moral standpoint on her relationship to the law.

       I don’t think that’s entirely fair. It’s pretty well known that the penalty for being caught speeding are less potentially life-altering than being caught violating federal drug laws.

       (Eating food at the supermarket you haven’t purchased? Do people do that?)
       1. Agnodike* April 12, 2017 at 2:51 pm

          Yes. People snack on grapes from a bunch, etc. all the time. Of note, it’s not theft to snack as you shop as long as you intend to pay and have the means to do so, but items sold by weight like grapes are a trickier area.

          Semantics aside: your argument is that some things are more illegal than others, and I agree with that. That’s not compatible with the argument advanced by many commenters that “illegal is illegal” and that Sally is justified in calling the cops on her colleagues because she witnessed illegal activity. Part of my point is EXACTLY that the penalties for speeding and marijuana use are very different, and that we should take some time to reflect on why that might be and whether we think that’s reasonable.
40. Puffyshirt* April 12, 2017 at 11:27 am

    So I am totally onboard with the feeling that’s Sally overreacted to this and wonder if she has a history of similar histrionics. I’m guessing if that were the case, the OP woukd have mentioned it.

    That aside, it is illegal in that state to use marijuana, so I’m not sure how our “opinion” of drug use matters in this case. It’s clearly illegal. That’s not a gray area.
41. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 11:29 am

    Hasn’t Alison said something to the effect of: there’s no such thing as a tattletale at work?

    Obviously Sally’s actions seem a little bit extreme (especially pushing them to be fired), but the root of this whole issue is that her boss was 1) engaging in illegal behavior 2) at a work event, and 3) invited his direct reports to partake. This is not the same as a person or group of friends quietly doing something on their own time in the privacy of their own house. Presumably the hotel would also be against illegal activity occurring on their property.

    TL;DR I have a hard time agreeing that someone is out of line for reporting illegal behavior.
    (Obligatory disclaimer that this particular illegal activity is fairly innocuous, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still illegal)
    1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 11:33 am

       Yeah, but I don’t think anyone is arguing that Sally would be in the wrong if she’d told the company what was up. But taking a picture, telling the hotel (and getting the cops involved), then taking a bus out of town? That’s a different type of tattling then confiding in your manager.
       1. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 11:45 am

          According to the letter (which we should take at face value), Sally did not get the cops involved. She only told the hotel (who presumably does not want illegal behavior to occur on its property), and then later the manager. Taking a bus out of town overnight is pretty weird, but then it was a weird situation instigated by her boss.
          1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 11:51 am

             She told the hotel because she wanted to escalate the situation and have someone in authority (maybe the cops, maybe the hotel manager) to put a stop to the adults smoking weed in their room. Doing that (combined with taking a photo and leaving the city on a bus in the middle of the night then demanding to be transferred) is a gross overreaction to a situation that could’ve otherwise been resolved by her saying “no thanks” and returning to her hotel room for the evening and alerting HR when she got back. Instead she took very very over-the-top steps that resulted in her coworkers getting arrested. She holds responsibility for that happening.
             1. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 11:58 am

                I think that’s going too far for me, though. I don’t think Sally should have told the hotel, but the people responsible for getting busted for their illegal action are the people performing the illegal action. (I’m intrigued by the hotel folks saying that they’re wondering how the cops even got involved with this, so maybe there was more going on.)
             2. That Would Be a Good Band Name* April 12, 2017 at 12:02 pm

                It was over-the-top, but she was still reporting an illegal activity. Sure, it’s an activity that many, many, many people feel should be legal but it’s still illegal where she was. I don’t think she needs to “hold responsibility” for illegal activities that other adults participated in. Did she need to report them? No. But was she wrong for reporting? I wouldn’t have, but I don’t think so. I’m not likely to ever think it’s wrong for someone to stand up for what they believe in, especially when the law is on their side. (This does assume she is anti-drug, but I don’t think that’s a leap given her reaction)
             3. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 12:18 pm

                She told the hotel because she wanted to escalate the situation

                This is an assumption you are making that is not stated anywhere in the text of the letter.
                1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:30 pm

                   Of course it’s in the letter. Right alongside the information where she made an ultimatum and bought a bus ticket out of town. Not escalating the situation = removing yourself and returning to your room. Escalating the situation to get someone in trouble = reporting to the hotel. She knew exactly what she was doing. What other purpose would it serve to tell the hotel?
                   1. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 1:57 pm

                      Did she have her own room though? Maybe she wanted to be moved to a different room. Maybe she was across the hall from them or next door and could still smell it.

                      You are assuming intent that isn’t in the letter. We don’t know why she went to the hotel, be it “escalation” or “room change.
                      1. puffyshirt* April 12, 2017 at 2:14 pm

                         That’s a very good point. I was thinking about, too, that “smoking rooms” are rare these days. Especially in a hotel room you would expect business travelers to book.
    2. Not That Jane* April 12, 2017 at 11:44 am

       Also, I think Alison’s statement about tattling applies more to coworker behavior insofar as it negatively impacts your work getting done. Since Sally could have just gone back to her hotel room and continued at the conference the next day, these coworkers’ behavior didn’t impact her work in that way.
    3. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 11:52 am

       Quote from Alison: “should I worry about tattling at work?”

       The first thing to know is this: There’s no such thing as tattling in the workplace. Tattling is a concept from kindergarten. It doesn’t apply to adults. So you should drop it from your thinking altogether.

       There’s also this:
       In general, when you’re trying to figure out when something is worth raising to your boss versus when it might come across as petty, the question to ask yourself is: How does this impact our work, and by how much? When something isn’t just mildly annoying but has a real impact, a good boss wants to know about it.

       I would argue that an employee, while representing the company, engaging in illegal activity, and inviting a subordinate to take part is such a large lapse of judgement that the employee has a responsibility to inform the manager.

       Reporting to the hotel is less clear cut (and I probably wouldn’t have done it). However, I don’t think that someone is out of line informing them that illegal activity is occurring on their property.
       1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 11:57 am

          This is all addressing “tattling” in the context of telling one’s manager. Nobody is saying Sally shouldn’t have said something to her boss or the manager’s boss. They’re saying she shouldn’t have taken the other half dozen steps that all combine to create an extreme over-reaction. Also – does a manager smoking in his hotel impact OPs work? It’s certainly a lapse in judgement, but it’s not like he was high during a meeting or something. I think this is far less clear cut than you think it is.

          Reporting to the hotel was such an extreme reaction imo that’s it’s not even defensible. She risked her coworker’s careers over something that nearly half the population has partaken in at some point in their lives. And it’s not just that – it’s the picture, the bus, the ultimatum. All of it together demonstrate an overreaction and lack of judgement.
          1. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 12:16 pm

             Sally is not risking her coworker’s careers. The people who engaged in the illegal activity bear the responsibility of the consequences of their actions.
             1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:21 pm

                Yes, she did. She reported them and took a picture, left the city and is refusing to work with them instead of just removing herself from the situation in the first place. I’m not saying the manager should’ve engaged in that behavior, but there was no reason to react the way Sally did and her reaction is what led to serious (and over the top) consequences for her coworkers.
                1. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 12:40 pm

                   People are responsible for their own behaviors. Full stop.
                   1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:44 pm

                      I’m not saying otherwise. I am saying that Sally deciding to impose her own overly-harsh consequences by reporting the behavior was ridiculous. Full Stop.
                      1. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 12:58 pm

                         You are saying otherwise: “Sally deciding to impose her own overly-harsh consequences”

                         Sally is not the one imposing consequences. The consequences are owned by the people who committed the action.

                         These are adults. They knew that what they were doing was illegal. They knew that there may be consequences for their actions. They accepted that risk when they chose to perform the action.
                      2. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 2:02 pm

                         No, Scion is right. When you choose to engage in illegal behavior, you know you might get caught, and you agree, by your choice, to accept the consequences of your actions. That’s what adults do any way. Children complain that it is someone else’s fault that they got into trouble.
                   2. Stop That Goat* April 12, 2017 at 12:48 pm

                      That’s right. Sally is also responsible for her overreaction.
                      1. miss_chevious* April 12, 2017 at 5:05 pm

                         Sure. And the consequence for her overreaction might be that she is denied a transfer and forced to quit. But she did not risk the careers of her coworkers — they did that themselves.
       2. Kj* April 12, 2017 at 1:29 pm

          Informing management would be correct on Sally’s part. Taking the next bus out of town and abandoning work responsibilities is the real problem and I would consider firing Sally for that. At the very least I’d reprimand her for abandoning her job.
42. MEMEME* April 12, 2017 at 11:29 am

    I drink alcohol, but if an employee of mine went to a conference in a place where the consumption of alcohol was illegal, and proceeded to drink and offer alcohol to his/her staff, I would consider termination.

    Sally may have reacted very poorly, but I believe the manager’s behavior is beyond inappropriate.
43. Chris* April 12, 2017 at 11:29 am

    OP, I’m curious. Does your company have a drug and alcohol policy? Because it feels like you are somewhat adrift in how to handle this because it’s not clear what the company’s position is on the use of various substances, both on the clock, and off. While you, as an employer, can’t control your employee’s off-work hours, you can for example state that there is an expectation that no-one comes to work impaired, and that therefore alcohol or drug consumption during regular work hours, even on break, is prohibited (or just prior to work, etc.)

    If there is no policy, you should consider creating one and keeping in mind that you obviously have company functions that are held in jurisdictions with different legalities. This defines the boundaries of ‘where company concerns start and stop’. Employees who are fully aware of the policy should know what to expect from management at that point with respect to addressing their concerns.

    There are some legal liability issues to consider, if you don’t actually have a policy. Not knowing what kind of teapots your company makes, it’s likely that an impaired employee who performs a task for a customer could fail to perform safely, and injuries or damages could cause unpleasant consequences for the company. It sounds from the tone of the letter as if this sort of consideration is out of step with the culture of the company (I get the impression of a smaller, laid-back company), but it’s not unusual in the business world at all for it to be a consideration.

    As already mentioned.. you have an issue with team dynamic. I don’t think I can improve on Alison’s comments there, but I will suggest that even in a laid back company with low ‘rules’.. there is a standard of professionalism that should be maintained and understood by the team. That understanding seems lacking here, and it’s going to continue to cause you issues in future, in my opinion.
    1. GreatLakesGal* April 12, 2017 at 11:40 am

       Agree.

       I find it hard to imagine that a company large enough to have several departments doesn’t have a policy for drug it alcohol use at work.

       This all feels very fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants to me.
    2. NW Mossy* April 12, 2017 at 12:48 pm

       I live in a legalized state, but our nationwide company’s policy is still “nope, nope, nope” on pot, precisely because of the complex legal environment. It’s also in our policy that you can’t drink to excess while on business, which seems reasonable to me.

       At a conference, people know what entity you’re there representing, probably because it’s right there on your name badge/placard. If you’re drunk or stoned at the hotel, it’s not going to reflect well on you or your employer, even if you can draw a distinction between on the clock and not. This is just one of those things where even if it’s legal to do it, you don’t need to and likely don’t want to if you want to maintain a veneer of professionalism.
44. RVA Cat* April 12, 2017 at 11:30 am

    Can we also say it was a dumb move by the male manager to invite his female subordinate to his hotel room for any reason? The only way I could possibly justify Sally’s overreaction is if they was some skeevy pressure from him to “party” in more ways than just the weed, but if there was harassment I’d think she would report it.
    1. JHunz* April 12, 2017 at 11:32 am

       No, that’s really not the case at all. Not inviting her to the room because she’s a woman when there were other team members there already is exactly the kind of patriarchal barrier to team bonding that Alison counsels against frequently
    2. paul* April 12, 2017 at 11:33 am

       I wouldn’t read that as inherently skeezy or bad, particularly if other people were also present. I’ve had female colleagues in my hotel room, and I’ve briefly stepped into my (female) manager’s hotel room during work trips.
    3. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 11:40 am

       I’m going to 100% disagree with this statement. Stuff like this is how women get excluded from networking and bonding opportunities. Remember the letter from the woman on a mostly-male team who was excluded from the Air BNB rental and all the bonding that went on? It hurts women’s careers to be left out of bonding.
    4. RVA Cat* April 12, 2017 at 12:11 pm

       Yeah I was wrong, sorry. Internalized sexism?
    5. Willow* April 12, 2017 at 12:22 pm

       I’ve been in my male boss’ hotel room and nothing inappropriate has ever happened.
45. K.* April 12, 2017 at 11:30 am

    I’d let her quit. She sounds … fragile, to say the least, and it’s hard for me to come up with a reason to reward her behavior. (My stance on weed is a firm “legalize it,” although I don’t smoke tobacco or weed.)
46. Rachel - HR* April 12, 2017 at 11:30 am

    I agree that Sally majorly overreacted. However, I am shocked that more didn’t happen to the manager. The manager initiated his staff in an illegal activity while on a work trip. That shows poor judgement and poor boundaries. More disciplinary action should have been taken against the manager.
47. Not a Real Giraffe* April 12, 2017 at 11:30 am

    I get wanting to leave the manager’s room to remove yourself from an uncomfortable situation and disassociate yourself with an illegal activity, but leaving the entire conference? I would be livid that Sally abandoned her work duties, costing the business money on a hotel room, conference fee, travel fare, etc.

    The malicious undertones (overtones?) of Sally’s actions confuse me greatly.
    1. AMG* April 12, 2017 at 11:51 am

       It does feel malicious, and so does insisting on a transfer. Is she hoping they will be fired so that she won’t need to transfer? It seems as though she is trying to egg on a punishment. I admit that’s reading a lot into her behavior, but that’s just my perception of her.
       1. Not a Real Giraffe* April 12, 2017 at 12:19 pm

          I mean, if I were Sally, I would want the transfer too — there’s no way to go back to a normal working relationship with these two after what happened!
          1. AMG* April 12, 2017 at 1:58 pm

             I can’t imagine she would be comfortable in that situation but trying to force someone’s hand? The manager surely is thinking that it’s Sally or the 2 employees who they would lose. It just forces the issue. I also think her overall pattern of behavior is malicious.
       2. Evan Þ* April 12, 2017 at 12:21 pm

          What? You’re saying that she should be fine with continuing to have a manager who now has good reason to blame her for his criminal record?
          1. Anon druggie* April 12, 2017 at 1:56 pm

             I’m saying that she made this bed and should have to lie in it. If you’re actions have consequences, then think about what you’re doing before taking that step. Or, FFS, giving an ultimatum!
             1. Anon druggie* April 12, 2017 at 1:56 pm

                Just my opinion.
48. Mustache Cat* April 12, 2017 at 11:31 am

    I’m deeply disturbed by the lengths she went to in order to get her colleagues in trouble. I completely understand being uncomfortable with pot-smoking and being asked to partake in it; I’m not a big fan myself. And indeed, she claims to have been so uncomfortable that she left the conference and sped away on a Greyhound. Yet she evidentially stayed in the hotel room long enough for the manager to light the joint, start smoking it, and for her to take a picture of the situation. And then deliberately told hotel staff, knowing that they were in a state where marijuana is illegal, and then demanded that her colleagues be fired? It smacks either of vindictiveness or an extreme lack of ability to react reasonably to situations that make her uncomfortable, neither of which you need on your team. How will she react the next time she encounters something that is relatively normalized yet illegal? (There are plenty of laws and ordinances on the books that most of us are violating at any given time.) What if she somehow finds out that you, and undoubtedly others in your workplace, partake of pot at home?

    I know these do not necessarily follow from the situation described, and that perhaps the boundary line for her is that it was happening in a work event, or maybe she’s only this unreasonable about marijuana, or whatever. But her unreasonable reaction was so strong, and so deliberate that I don’t think you can assume that.

    (And for the record, definitely keep in the back of your mind that this manager might have judgement issues as well.)
49. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 11:31 am

    Trying for an analogy–say you were in a country where alcohol is illegal. Which is fine, as you don’t drink, plus background of a family with alcoholism problems that make you particularly red line at any pressure… up until you’re invited to your boss’s room, where he pulls out a bottle, laughs gleefully about how you’re all going to really put one over because the scent of alcohol and sounds of drunken revelry are impossible to detect by anyone outside the room, and tells you to aw chill out already this is what people in the in-group on this trip know to do.

    Put like that, I think Sally probably should have said no, left, not reported them to the police but I would support her reporting the law breaking and pressure to management after…. But the rule is really:
    Don’t invite someone to break the law with you (re substance use, tax fraud, driving heavy equipment without a license, embezzling, whatever) and assume they will TOTES NOT REPORT IT because snitches get stitches or whatever your reasoning is. The largest error here was the manager who assumed “all cool people like to ignore this law, it’s cool.” Which is a bigger problem than someone making more of a fuss than may be commensurate to a social and professional error.
    1. calonkat* April 12, 2017 at 1:27 pm

       +1
50. spek* April 12, 2017 at 11:32 am

    To manager – “Wow, you showed very poor judgement. You have been reprimanded and arrested, so other than reimbursing the company for any portion of the conference you missed and any money we owe the hotel, consider the matter dropped with a harsh warning”

    To Employee A – “You also owe for any funds the company paid out. Doing illegal drugs on a business trip is not permitted”

    To Sally – ” I understand what a traumatic experience this must have been for you. You were completely justified in reporting illegal activity. However, before checking out of the hotel and taking a bus home, you should have called me and explained the circumstances so we could have figured out the best plan. In consideration of the circumstances, we are not going to discipline you or make you reimburse us for the conference you missed, but in the future, you need to communicate better, rather than just up and run. The manager will apologize to you for his actions. We will consider your request for a transfer based on the needs of the business. The manager and other employee have been disciplined and will not be fired.”
    1. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 11:37 am

       Wait, why should Manager and Employee A have to reimburse the company, and why should Sally not have to? I also take issue with the idea that being offered weed is a “traumatic experience”.
       1. Allypopx* April 12, 2017 at 11:42 am

          Yeah, all three of them showed poor judgement and if any of them have to reimburse the company, all three of them should. And I’d change “I understand what a traumatic experience this must have been ….. illegal activity.” to “I understand this situation was upsetting for you” and then lean into what she should have done differently.
       2. spek* April 12, 2017 at 1:17 pm

          Because, even though I am fully in support of recreational and medicinal marijuana, the fact is that the worker was offered drugs that were illegal in the state. Legally, it’s similar to being offered cocaine or heroin, or if the manager had invited her to his room and then told her a couple of hookers were on the way.
          In spite of my personal opinion, the facts are that Sally observed her colleagues engaging in illegal activity and she was offered a chance to participate, which obviously greatly offended her. While I may think she is a complete dolt, Sally is on very solid legal ground here.
          1. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 2:12 pm

             Yes, this! I am really surprised that so many commenters are saying the way you feel a law determines whether or not you should obey it, and that anyone who disagrees and turns you in is a “narc”, a term I haven’t heard since grade school.
             1. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 3:19 pm

                Actually, no one has said that. I have no issue with Sally choosing not to smoke. None at all! I do have an issue with her narcing, though, because that’s just a shitty thing to do. There’s no law that says adults have to turn in adults for illegal activity.
    2. EddieSherbert* April 12, 2017 at 11:48 am

       +1
       I think these are good scripts (and I do think transferring Sally – if possible – is a good idea. I can’t imagine her and the manager could work well together anymore. If the transfer isn’t possible, I’d give her time to job hunt and be a very supportive reference *assuming her work is good and you would give her a positive reference outside of this issue*).
51. jaybee* April 12, 2017 at 11:33 am

    I previously worked in an industry where pot was just sort of around. I could see this coming up. There was a week long conference every year and I KNOW people smoked with colleagues. However, there is an understanding that you show up to work the next day, regardless of what you did the night before, and you’re pretty much okay. Also don’t sleep with multiple customers in the same week. Someone did get fired for that.
52. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 11:34 am

    Has Sally shown her bad judgment and drama queen nature in other ways, or is this just weirdly a huge issue for her? I think she behaved abominably here, FWIW, while I am also questioning the judgment of her boss for bringing marijuana on a work trip (saying this as a recreational smoker).

    I would have punished Sally for wasting company funds and leaving the conference early. I would also punish the two for smoking on a work trip.

    I would let her quit rather than reward her with a transfer, but that’s just me really not liking Sally from what I read here. She sounds like more trouble than she’s worth as an employee.
53. LawCat* April 12, 2017 at 11:38 am

    Alison, if you think your views of pot may be coloring your response, I am curious if your response would have been the same if the boss offered a line of cocaine rather than a joint?

    (I mean, in terms of seeing anything from Sally’s perspective, she may view these things as similar in light of government policy.)
    1. Allie* April 12, 2017 at 11:44 am

       Even if it was coke, taking pictures and getting someone arrested isn’t cool. Especially in a smaller jurisdiction, some simple possession offenders get way over punished and the record is not cool (big cities usually credit time served for simple possession but it technically carries a much much higher penalty and small jurisdictions can go after people). Sally isn’t the police and isn’t protecting anyone, getting someone arrested in those circumstances is not cool.
       1. LawCat* April 12, 2017 at 11:49 am

          What do you mean it’s “not cool”? It’s also “not cool” to involve work subordinates in illegal drug use. Because I actually get the photo and alerting the hotel to CYA in a situation like this. (Sally didn’t call the cops, the hotel did). Ditching the conference seems extreme, but I get her being really upset.

          If my boss offered me a line of cocaine, I would also be looking to not work under that person. I would never want to be in that situation again. The boss would have irreparably damaged our relationship.

          My personal reaction would be different if it were pot, but I also don’t think Sally is nuts for having her views and wanting to avoid that boss.
          1. EddieSherbert* April 12, 2017 at 11:55 am

             Yeah, I think Sally’s reactions were extreme across the board, but…. it’s “not cool” is not a good argument :/

             And, to be fair, I’d report coke use to the company – and maybe the hotel if I got no advice on what to do.

             Maybe they’d get overpunished like you said, which sucks, but that’s not something I know much about in general (let alone how it’s handled in the specific jurisdiction we happen to be in for the conference)… and I guess I wouldn’t be thinking about that. I’d just be freaking out a bit.
          2. Allie* April 12, 2017 at 11:55 am

             I agree that the manager was wrong, but I think Sally’s behavior was wrong. For instance, I was a prosecutor’s intern but I can tell you even prosecutors don’t call the cops for every offense they witness, unless there is a public safety issue. I don’t think it’s a CYA thing at all because Sally would in no way be liable for someone else’s drug use and if she had a work issue, she could do it later.
             1. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 1:59 pm

                People are held liable for their colleagues’ behavior all the time, in many contexts. A whole department or team might be fired because they don’t know (and at this point in frustration don’t care) who was in on the problem and who was looking the other way and who had no idea.
          3. Allie* April 12, 2017 at 11:59 am

             “Not cool” means “don’t try to get other people in trouble without a darn good reason”. I have personally seen how a simple possession conviction can destroy lives (friend’s spouse got deported). Sure it is their fault for doing something illegal but acknowledging that there is a system that applies rules in an irregular manner with overly punitive consequences and picking carefully when you choose to put someone into that system is a reality.
             1. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 2:18 pm

                But the people doing the illegal behavior knew the consequences and apparently didn’t care enough (about being deported in this case) to not do it. They care more about doing drugs and having fun than about being deported, in your friend’s spouse’s case.

                And to repeat, she did NOT call the cops, the hotel did. She probably just wanted a different room. Even if she did just want to get them in trouble, extremely unlikely, bad things happen when you break the law, deal with it.
                1. Anonforthis* April 12, 2017 at 4:58 pm

                   That’s ridiculous. People are human and make mistakes. Drug enforcement had a long history of racially coded consequences. the idea that everything goes out the window because “well he did something wrong” always seems to be trotted out by white people after a person of color gets disproportionately treated for something.
          4. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 12:01 pm

             I seriously don’t get how doing what Sally did is “CYA” – it was more like she blew up on her colleagues and acted in a ridiculous manner.

             I wouldn’t partake in cocaine, meth, heroin, etc. with my boss, but I still wouldn’t involve the hotel or the police. I might seek a transfer, I might report to the company, but I’m not about to throw a bunch of people under the bus and get them criminal records, either.
             1. LawCat* April 12, 2017 at 12:03 pm

                The CYA is in case there is blow back for the crime. Sally doesn’t want to get fired for being associated with what happened. Nor does she know her employer is fine with this as the only consequence would have been a talking to.
                1. Jessie the First (or second)* April 12, 2017 at 12:32 pm

                   “Sally doesn’t want to get fired for being associated with what happened.”

                   I don’t see how that happens. They offer, she says no, she *leaves the room and returns to her own room*. This is where the story would end.

                   How does she then become punished for somehow being associated with the situation? Even if the manager, in manager’s own room, somehow gets caught by someone else? Sally is not there. How is she now guilty of anything (legally or in company’s eyes)?
                   1. LawCat* April 12, 2017 at 12:46 pm

                      “How does she then become punished for somehow being associated with the situation?”

                      Employer: “So, Sally, you knew your boss and coworker were engaging in criminal conduct and you did nothing? Didn’t tell us? Didn’t tell the hotel?”
                      Sally: “Correct.”
                      Employer: “You’re fired.”
                      1. Mike C.* April 12, 2017 at 1:05 pm

                         Then we yell at the boss for being grossly unethical rather than Sally.
                      2. LawCat* April 12, 2017 at 1:14 pm

                         Sounds like a no-win situation for Sally.
                      3. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 3:12 pm

                         You really have strong feels about MJ, apparently, and that’s clouding your perception. “Engaging in criminal conduct and you did nothing” is something you would say if someone was stealing, hurting others, or putting the company in jeopardy. Smoking the occasional J is really not that.
                      4. LawCat* April 12, 2017 at 3:29 pm

                         I don’t have strong feelings about MJ. Many people do. Do you think that it’s unrealistic that an employer might?
    2. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 11:52 am

       Yes, I think that taking a photo and getting colleagues arrested is over the top regardless of the drug.

       I understand that’s something reasonable people can disagree on when it’s, say, meth. But I think particularly in the case of pot, this is pretty ridiculous.
       1. LawCat* April 12, 2017 at 12:01 pm

          Sally didn’t get them arrested. She told the hotel. The hotel called the cops. The cops made an arrest.
          1. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 12:29 pm

             That excuse didn’t work for United Airlines either.
             1. LawCat* April 12, 2017 at 12:33 pm

                Wow.
             2. Marvel* April 12, 2017 at 12:41 pm

                Oh, come on.
             3. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 2:18 pm

                Facts aren’t excuses.
          2. Roscoe* April 12, 2017 at 12:46 pm

             Sally knew what she was doing. At minimum she wanted to get them in trouble. Period. So whether it was getting them arrested or getting them kicked out, she wanted them punished
             1. bridget* April 12, 2017 at 1:20 pm

                And now that they have already been arrested and reprimanded, she is insisting that they be fired. Arrest wasn’t enough “consequence” for her, which suggests to me she does not object to them having been arrested, even if she didn’t specifically request it herself. Even after all of this, she does not think they have been sufficiently punished.
             2. Evan Þ* April 12, 2017 at 1:21 pm

                Or, as LawCat points out upthread, she wanted to make sure she wasn’t associated with the situation and wasn’t blamed for not reporting.
                1. Vin Packer* April 12, 2017 at 1:40 pm

                   Except she wants them fired now. What’s the point of that, if not some punitive desire to see them punished?
             3. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 2:20 pm

                Or she wanted to change rooms and avoid a fee, so she took the picture as proof that she wasn’t making it up to get a better room.
       2. Aurion* April 12, 2017 at 12:04 pm

          Rereading the letter, it sounds like the hotel staff reported it to the police, not Sally. Taking a photo was probably to prove Sally’s point when she reported it to her company.

          I’m pretty astonished at the number of people insisting that Sally was out to get her manager and colleague arrested.

          Now, Sally is out to get her manager and colleagues fired, but that’s not arrested with a record. And frankly, the manager and the colleague exhibited such poor judgement the company (OP, etc) may very well choose to fire them without Sally’s demand anyway.
       3. LawCat* April 12, 2017 at 12:04 pm

          So reasonable people cannot disagree about pot?
          1. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 12:06 pm

             I think it’s pretty alarming to advocate that people be imprisoned for smoking a joint, yes.
             1. LawCat* April 12, 2017 at 12:16 pm

                Interesting. I definitely think reasonable people can disagree on whether this should or should not be legal.

                At any rate, it certainly was not legal here and I can see why Sally was upset.
                1. AYN* April 12, 2017 at 12:21 pm

                   I agree. When I was less experienced with the corporate world, having a BOSS offer me something illegal would have totally freaked me out. My parents drilled into me the danger of getting into a car with someone who has an illegal substance (you can be arrested for that) and it is especially risky if Sally is a person of color or had a previous arrest. Again, I could easily see myself being greatly upset by this and not knowing how to approach it.
                2. MegaMoose, Esq* April 12, 2017 at 1:02 pm

                   I think these arguments are only really reasonable if they include the desire to criminalize alcohol. I’ve never heard a good, data based argument for treating a moderately safe (or safer) drug so much more harshly than an incredibly dangerous one.
                   1. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 1:08 pm

                      Yep.

                      And really, I want all the people saying they oppose legalization to word it this way: “I support sending otherwise law-abiding adults — probably including some of my friends, family, and neighbors — to prison for using marijuana.” Mostly they seem to gloss over that supporting prohibition means supporting sending people to prison.
                      1. LawCat* April 12, 2017 at 1:17 pm

                         Someone can be in favor of it being illegal without being in favor of imprisonment as the consequence for a violation.
                      2. Trout 'Waver* April 12, 2017 at 1:21 pm

                         I’m anti-legalization and pro-decriminalization. Make it a fine like a speeding ticket or such.
                      3. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 1:53 pm

                         Then you actually favor decriminalization, which is a huge, huge difference!
                      4. Trout 'Waver* April 12, 2017 at 2:02 pm

                         Right, just pointing out that anti-legalize doesn’t necessarily mean anti-decriminalize.
                      5. Casuan* April 12, 2017 at 3:36 pm

                         decriminalization

                         Would someone please put this word in a legal context for me?
                         I understand the definition although I don’t understand the legal nuance.
                         Is it like saying that whilst something isn’t quite legal, it’s not actually illegal?
                      6. MegaMoose, Esq.* April 12, 2017 at 4:05 pm

                         My understanding of decriminalization in this context is lowering enforcement priorities and penalties. So in my city, the penalty for possession in small amounts is less than the fine for parking in a handicap spot and is rarely enforced by the cops or prosecuted by the state. This has its own issues, of course, but I think some people prefer it as a way of showing disapproval but tolerance.
                      7. MegaMoose, Esq.* April 12, 2017 at 4:08 pm

                         So basically (not entirely sure I answered your question), it’s still illegal, but so are lots of things that cops and prosecutors ignore on a regular basis.
                   2. Trout 'Waver* April 12, 2017 at 1:23 pm

                      Nicotine and alcohol kill the most people in this country because they are the two legal recreational drugs. Adding a third legal recreational drug (of any type) would lead to increased usage and more negative public health outcomes.
                      1. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 2:21 pm

                         Agree!
                      2. MegaMoose, Esq.* April 12, 2017 at 4:11 pm

                         There is pretty substantial evidence that alcohol is simply more dangerous than marijuana on pretty much every possible objective metric. I think subjecting people to far harsher penalties for indulging in a far less socially and personally dangerous hobby is morally indefensible.
             2. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 12:29 pm

                I’m not seeing that being advocated, though; I’m seeing the point as resisting the notion that Sally is the responsible party for the fates of the smokers. It doesn’t even sound like she’s the one who called the cops, and even if she did, they’re not arrest-o-matics, and we usually resist constructions like “getting colleagues arrested.”

                I think pot should be legal and have voted that way, but while it’s illegal, it has unfortunate power to damage the lives of those near it as well as those who are using it. I’m wondering, for instance, if Sally drove with them to the conference–it’s not a lot of fun to be surprised during a traffic stop by the discovery that your driver was carrying weed and sometimes it’s more than not fun, and that may have been why she found alternate transportation back.
                1. oranges & lemons* April 12, 2017 at 3:50 pm

                   But there is something that feels needlessly vindictive in her reporting them, when all she needed to do was to leave the room. Maybe a parallel would be reporting a gay couple in an area where sodomy laws exist. Why get someone else in trouble for an activity that’s not effecting anyone else?
             3. Anonforthis* April 12, 2017 at 12:40 pm

                I think knowing when to push to get law enforcement involved is huge. Think about cases where innocent people get the cops called on them because of misconceptions and then roughed up by the police because “someone suspicious”. Or say you see your neighbor’s kid drinking and you know he just got that scholarship to his dream school. As an adult in society you know that involving the police involves an element of risk or consequnce. Innocent people get roughed up or worse. Your neighbor’s kid could lose his scholarship with an arrest record. Just because someone else may be doing something wrong doesn’t mean bringing the cops in isn’t a crappy thing to do.
             4. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 1:56 pm

                I’m not advocating that people be imprisoned for smoking a joint. I am saying that since it does happen to be illegal, smoking a joint while on a business trip and asking a subordinate to partake with you is incredibly poor judgment and it’s something I would probably fire someone for doing.

                For me, the context of where is incredibly important. If Sally was hanging out with Joe completely unrelated to work and Joe smoked a joint, that would be different.
       4. Arduino* April 12, 2017 at 12:09 pm

          Yeah I would be surprised to find out the cops were called after reporting them to the hotel – not the reaction I would expect.
       5. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 12:11 pm

          the drug is actually irrelevant. What matters more to the company is the legal seriousness of the behavior.
    3. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 11:55 am

       It’s not at all the same, though. If Sally sees a ridiculous equivalence between coke and weed, that’s her problem. And good on Sally’s boss/OP for not going along with Sally’s personal beliefs on drugs.
54. Not Mary Richards* April 12, 2017 at 11:38 am

    One contextual piece of information missing from this, that actually makes a difference is the line of work of those involved. A government contractor (especially defense or intelligence – where security clearances matter) would be well to err on the side of caution (my stepfather who holds a clearance blew a gasket when he found out my brother had smoked pot on the property–because of the reputational and professional jeopardy it could have put him in), but your average civilian teapot manufacturer would be a different matter . . .

    That said, although most reasonable people think that the criminal status of marijuana is ridiculous, the reality we’re operating in is that it’s still criminal – and especially at an off-site location where there’s also the hotel’s liability and those of the others in the conference was quite reckless . . . (though I still think Sally overreacted, I’m fidgeting with (albeit not clutching) my pearls at the behavior of her colleagues).
55. Chickaletta* April 12, 2017 at 11:38 am

    Peanut butter and jelly this whole situation is messed up. Does OP have a whole department full of employees with poor judgment, or is it just those three? Maybe a workshop on situation analysis and decision-making skills is in order?
56. Lies, damn lies and...* April 12, 2017 at 11:39 am

    Wow. The manager who offered was out of line. Also, there’s something squicky to me about going to a manager’s hotel room, so that just seems like the manager has poor judgement overall. So does Sally though; I have a hard time being sympathetic to all parties, including the OP. Is there harm in the transfer? Has Sally exercised weird judgement before? If so, maybe just let her go…. Or is OP worried other staff may find out about what happened and OP looks bad?
    1. Trout 'Waver* April 12, 2017 at 1:07 pm

       Yeah, that bugs me too. Why would you ever go to socialize in your manager’s room in the first place? If my boss invited me to his room to socialize, I’d redirect and suggest a drink in the bar. I’d never go to his hotel room.
57. Squeegee Beckenheim* April 12, 2017 at 11:39 am

    This strikes me as an extreme overreaction. I would be fine if she just reported it to her supervisor after the trip ended (especially if coworker really was putting some pressure on her), but getting the hotel and the police involved and then coming home is way over the top. Those are the kind of actions you take if the coworker is threatening you with real harm, not when they’re breaking a law that doesn’t harm anyone else.
58. SheLooksFamiliar* April 12, 2017 at 11:40 am

    I’m actually pro-legalization of marijuana even though I never liked it, and never liked the way people behave(d) while on it. I tried it back in the day and it’s just not my thing. Still, my take is more like Timothy Leary’s: Just say ‘No, thanks.’ So while I understand why Sally wasn’t comfortable being in the presence of a still-illegal substance – at a professional event, no less – I don’t think she used good judgment for literally running away in the dark of night. That kind of pearl-clutching overreaction speaks volumes, just as the poor judgment of her team lead does.

    OP, please think long and hard about Sally in ANY role in your company. Her own judgment and business maturity are questionable, and I encourage you to be candid about her (I think) overreaction and mishandling of the situation. If she acknowledges she could/should have been more restrained, great – there’s hope! If not, I see more pearl-clutching in your future with her. This is, sadly, the voice of experience.

    Please keep us posted.
59. Jubilance* April 12, 2017 at 11:40 am

    Whoa did that manager made a bad decision in offering his employees a joint without knowing 100% if they were into that sort of thing.

    However I’d let Sally quit – she’s a tattle tale and clearly responses to situations in an over-the-top way, and that’s way more drama than you need.
    1. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 12:13 pm

       So the employee that reports illegal behavior is worse than the employee committing it?
       1. Browser* April 12, 2017 at 12:38 pm

          That seems to be a common viewpoint in here.
       2. Roscoe* April 12, 2017 at 12:48 pm

          Kind of. Would you call the cops because your co-worker was speeding in the car next to you? If someone was walking on the street with an open container, would you call the cops?

          I think knowing proportional reactions is very important. Sally doesn’t seem to know that
          1. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 1:03 pm

             If pot possession was the equivalent of traffic violations then I’d agree with you, but you generally don’t get arrested for minor speeding or open containers.
             1. Roscoe* April 12, 2017 at 5:01 pm

                Ok, so now you are choosing what laws are ok to report and which ones arent?
          2. MegaMoose, Esq* April 12, 2017 at 1:15 pm

             Agreed. And while I disagree with people saying Sally should be fired, I can see the point in letting her quit. I don’t think that’s saying what she did was necessarily worse, but that you shouldn’t bend over backwards just to keep her around.
       3. Jubilance* April 12, 2017 at 1:55 pm

          Show me where I said anything close to that. I’ll wait.

          Sally went out of her way to make sure her colleagues were punished and is now pushing an ultimatum at her company to get her way – all of that is too much and I wouldn’t want to deal with that.
          1. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 2:15 pm

             You’re advocating for the separation of her employment because she’s a tattle tale and full of drama while the others remain employed.

             How is it not reasonable to request to be removed from his authority given the potential for future problems?
    2. NW Mossy* April 12, 2017 at 12:52 pm

       I’d argue that it’s a spectacularly bad decision for a boss to offer pot to a direct regardless of the direct’s personal feelings about pot. Even if the direct is totally on board, there’s a level of intimacy involved in that kind of an offer that makes my Inappropriate Boundaries Detector start pinging.
60. Michelenyc* April 12, 2017 at 11:41 am

    I really can’t believe people still get arrested for pot possession. In NYC you only get issued a summons for less than 25 grams. NYPD decided in 2014 that it wasted too much of their time to take people in for such a small amount.
    1. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 12:01 pm

       I interviewed someone recently who is on house arrest thanks to a simple possession charge.

       The drug laws in the US are completely ridiculous.
    2. Jessie the First (or second)* April 12, 2017 at 12:37 pm

       Yes, they do. Unless you are white, in which case you have a better chance at avoiding arrest.

       http://extract.suntimes.com/news/10/153/16990/despite-marijuana-decriminalization-african-americans-are-arrested-at-higher-rates-in-american-cities/
    3. Natalie* April 12, 2017 at 1:09 pm

       I wonder if they were in a quite conservative area (wrt illegal drugs, at least). That would explain the hotel calling the cops, the cops actually showing up, and the people getting arrested for simple possession.
    4. That Would Be a Good Band Name* April 12, 2017 at 1:22 pm

       Depends greatly on the area. Out here in the middle of nowhere, in an area with practically no crime, any amount of drug possession will get you arrested. I’m sure in larger areas the police have better things to do, but in more rural areas you’re going to find that everything gets taken a lot more seriously.
61. LiveandLetDie* April 12, 2017 at 11:41 am

    1) I think that the team manager has exhibited such poor judgment in doing this on a business trip that a reprimand is a pretty soft response on the part of the company to “offered and partook in an illegal drug with his direct reports on a business trip” (I’m pro-legalization, but it’s illegal in OP’s state, it is what it is). I’d be seriously considering if that person should be managing direct reports at all. It sounds like his sense of professional boundaries is all out of whack.

    2) Sally’s over-reacting big time and I think that her request for a transfer and/or threat to quit kind of sounds like she’s trying to get away from the two folks she got arrested as fast as humanly possible because she knows she blew it out of proportion. I don’t know that I’d be all that willing to even entertain the notion of a transfer for something like this.
    1. Lies, damn lies and...* April 12, 2017 at 1:29 pm

       So agree on #1!
62. DCompliance* April 12, 2017 at 11:41 am

    A manager should not be asking an employee to partake in an illegal activity. It’s just frustrating that this particular activity is illegal.
    1. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 12:08 pm

       Yeah, for me the illegality and all the subsequent ripples are what’s key here. Because it’s illegal, it can mean all manner of problems for people even just in proximity to it–people make good points upthread about custody battles, undocumented people, volunteering, etc. Even if you’ve decided for yourself the risk is slight and the consequences not likely to be significant, that’s not going to be true for somebody else.

       And while there’s been a lot of questioning of Sally’s taking the Greyhound, if it’s bus-able and in-state, that means probably the stuff was being transported in somebody’s car for a decent distance. That’s not a traffic stop you want to be there for, and that may have factored into her thinking.
       1. GreatLakesGal* April 12, 2017 at 12:19 pm

          Oh, very good point.

          Also, if they carpooled together, how else was she supposed to get back?
          1. AYN* April 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm

             EXACTLY!! As a person who could lose custody of my children, I am not getting in a car with someone who has pot.
             1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:54 pm

                You’re not going to lose custody of your children because you’re in a car with a coworker who is carrying. Let’s not blow this entirely out of proportion, okay?
                1. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 1:58 pm

                   There are two things here, though: first, if you’re actually busted as a passenger (not usually, but not uncommon if you’re with morons or the stuff was placed problematically or the cop was grumpy), a vindictive ex absolutely could use an arrest in a custody battle, and it’s a really sucky thing to have to risk without consenting. Second, Sally really may not be on top of what unfolds if you’re caught with pot, and I don’t think she has to be.

                   You’re making an argument that anything but the action taken by somebody with a fairly advanced degree of information is unacceptable, and I don’t think that’s fair.
                   1. Trout 'Waver* April 12, 2017 at 2:04 pm

                      Custody battles are decided by judges. Unless there is a substantial pattern of behavior, no judge is going to take a situation such as you describe into consideration for custody arrangements. Especially so if it is on a work trip.
                      1. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 2:27 pm

                         Um, some judges actually are. There are many very conservative judges out there who would make this ruling.
                      2. Trout 'Waver* April 12, 2017 at 2:39 pm

                         Do you have a case or any evidence to support that?
                      3. Rouge* April 12, 2017 at 2:45 pm

                         I don’t know whether to laugh or cry, but I find your faith in judges and the justice system really touching. Bless your heart.
                      4. Trout 'Waver* April 12, 2017 at 3:33 pm

                         Just FYI, down here “Bless your heart” means “Go fuck yourself.”

                         But my faith is judges is based on my interactions with a large number of attorneys.
                      5. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 3:38 pm

                         Even if what you’re saying is true, it doesn’t make it costless to get into that situation in the first place. It’s not like it only matters if you lose custody, or your volunteering position, or don’t get pulled in by the cops. It still affects your life to have the argument, the discussion, and the traffic stop, and if it’s for reasons you didn’t consent to and weren’t aware of, that sucks.
       2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:53 pm

          So if all those are concerns for you, avoid the situation, de-escalate, and report it appropriately once you get back to work.
          1. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 1:59 pm

             I’m not sure what you mean by “de-escalate” here and why it’s incumbent on Sally–can you expand?
             1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 4:35 pm

                De-escalation would be pursuing the course of action least likely to cause unnecessary strife, drama, and pain for all involved – in this case, I’d have advocated dumping it in OP’s lap, not reporting it to the hotel or cops, not holding your job hostage to demand firings, not taking pictures, and in general turning this into a giant incident and a 1500-post AAM thread.

                And it’s incumbent on Sally because she was the one in a reactive role here.
          2. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 2:28 pm

             If she was sharing a room with either of them she couldn’t “avoid” it. Or if she was carpooling with them.
             1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 4:32 pm

                It’s very rare that coworkers are expected to share rooms, to the point I’m comfortable assuming that in almost all situations, each person would have their own room.

                Unless she was about to get into a car with them that night, carpooling seems irrelevant.
       3. Vin Packer* April 12, 2017 at 2:00 pm

          In the middle of the night though?

          And then demanding that her coworkers be fired when it was all over?
63. jhhj* April 12, 2017 at 11:43 am

    So Sally was asked, by her manager, to do drugs with him in a hotel room. Then she told the front desk — perhaps like one would when you were complaining the neighbouring room was loud or smoking or whatever? She took a picture, presumably because she had no idea the hotel would call the cops (I would never guess a hotel would do that) and figured no one would believe her without proof.

    Taking a bus home and threatening to quit are excessive, but there’s always an element of coercion when your manager asks you to do something, and hotel rooms are creepy in general, especially when your male boss asks you a female to do something to lower inhibitions in one. And Sally did not call the cops.

    I think she overreacted, and I don’t think I would fire the manager and definitely not the coworker for this, but a lot of what she did has pretty reasonable justifications even if you think pot should be legal (as I also do), and I think her manager certainly acted worse.
    1. Kj* April 12, 2017 at 12:36 pm

       My issue is not with her reporting (although I don’t think reporting to the hotel was ideal- why was it so urgent? It couldn’t have waited for her to report to HR?) but with her fleeing and abandoning her responsibility to attend the conference. Especially since her telling the hotel got co-worker/boss arrested and presumably they weren’t able to attend the conference the next day. Her leaving on a bus meant that no one from the company was at the conference.

       I agree her manager is in the wrong and needs to be reprimanded and possibly fired, depending on industry norms (where I work, this would get you fired).
       1. jhhj* April 12, 2017 at 2:55 pm

          I just feel there is more to this story than we know, because, yeah, leaving the conference early for this is excessive and really her only major mistake. I think that Sally has not told OP everything, though.
          1. Doe-Eyed* April 12, 2017 at 3:30 pm

             I sort of get it, she may have assumed that the manager would continue doing drugs throughout the duration of the conference and may have felt uncomfortable hanging out with him while he was carrying illegal drugs.
64. Loopy* April 12, 2017 at 11:44 am

    So I’d like to give the perspective of someone who is *extremely* uncomfortable around drugs /drug use and would be very upset having a superior offer me drugs.

    I think I would have felt very uncomfortable and been closer to the Sally end of the spectrum. I AM very straight laced and rule abiding.

    I would have absolutely recorded it and reported it immediately to the company to CYA. If the hotel found an illegal drug in the hotel room I would NOT have wanted to even remotely risked going down as part of the group.

    I wouldnt have left on a bus and I’m not sure I would have gotten the coworker and supervisor arrested, but I can see the potential panic of inadvertently getting involved in something with legal repercussions.

    But yeah, I would have come down hard and angry with my company for the position a supervisor put me in, very specifically because of the illegal status of the drug. That has very real consequences that go beyond just disagreeing with the use of marijuana.
    1. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 11:50 am

       You really would’ve cost your coworker’s jobs, and potentially their livelihoods and abilities to get other jobs, over smoking weed? Woof.
       1. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 11:55 am

          The reporter of the illegal activity is not the responsible party. The people who engaged in illegal behavior are responsible for their own behavior.
          1. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 12:31 pm

             Are you kidding? Sally was in no way obligated to report it to the hotel (who in turn reported it to the police). Her outsized reaction DID impact her coworkers’ lives. Would another hotel guest have reported them? I have no idea. But Sally was the catalyst here.

             Just because weed is currently illegal doesn’t mean that anyone and everyone deserves to be arrested for it. Current weed laws have ruined countless American lives, ESPECIALLY POC lives, ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY black male lives.

             Was smoking weed on a work trip a bad judgment call? Yep. Did Sally’s coworkers morally deserve to be arrested, REGARDLESS of whatever the laws were in that state? Abso-frickin-lutely not. Sally had a choice here, and she made one that had real and direct consequences for people’s lives.
          2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:55 pm

             Sure, but she didn’t need to personally ensure they got the absolute worst case possible outcome.
             1. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 1:04 pm

                Sally did not call the police and ask them to arrest her coworkers (I’m assuming that’s what you’re referring to as “the absolute worst case possible outcome”). She informed the hotel. The hotel called the police.
                1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:45 pm

                   It’s reasonably foreseeable that informing the hotel would lead to the police getting called. And she continues to lobby for their getting fired. Her actions show a desire to be punitive and damaging.
                   1. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 4:56 pm

                      I disagree that it is reasonable to foresee that. In fact, upstream, when I pointed out that other commenters who have worked at hotels said that they would not have been required to report to the cops, you responded:

                      That’s fair, I suppose – I worked at a hotel one long summer, and we were required to refer all such calls to the cops.

                      Man, was that a weird job.
                      1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 5:05 pm

                         What I said wasn’t incompatible with my assertion that it’s reasonable to expect that the police would be called.
       2. LawCat* April 12, 2017 at 11:58 am

          Wow. No. You’ve got it wrong. Performing an illegal act is what can cost the coworkers their jobs. The employer can do what they want. Fire or not fire with that info. That’s not on Sally. Are the pot smokers not responsible for the risks associated with their actions?
          1. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 12:34 pm

             Pot smokers being responsible for their own reactions doesn’t negate Sally’s culpability here. She went bananas on them in a way that caused real, direct consequences. Sally made a wrong, wrong, wrong and damaging choice. She had no obligation to report them, but she chose to. THAT is on her.
             1. LawCat* April 12, 2017 at 12:41 pm

                You could say that for anything though. Anyone who reports anything about an event is therefore responsible for the consequences rather than the persons involved in the event or the decisionmaker?
                1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:01 pm

                   Ethically? Yes. I reported a neighbor for child abuse and the resulting investigation resulted in her losing custody of the child. I have direct ethical responsibility for that outcome, which caused a great deal of pain. In that case, the ethics of inaction resulted in the victimization of an innocent, and I gladly accept that responsibility – but it is still my responsibility.

                   Sally bears responsibility for her actions and reactions as well, but in contrast to my example, there was no ethical imperative. She got people arrested, charged with crimes, likely fired, and created a great deal of strife and drama….to achieve what, exactly? There was no ethical obligation.
                   1. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 1:36 pm

                      Given the situation: a student was raped by a classmate, reported it to the police, and then the rapist was successfully prosecuted and sentenced to many years in jail.

                      Does the victim bear “direct ethical responsibility” for ruining the rapists life?
                      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:47 pm

                         Know how I can tell you don’t engage much with formal ethics?
                      2. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 3:37 pm

                         Are you actually comparing a rape victim reporting her rape and successfully prosecuting her rapist with Sally turn in her colleagues for smoking weed?
          2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 12:56 pm

             The pot smokers should be responsible for the natural consequences of their actions. Sally doing everything she could to escalate the situation was not a natural consequence, it was a forced one.
          3. AC* April 12, 2017 at 2:14 pm

             Wow. The fact that people are legit arguing up and down this thread that people should be arrested for smoking weed in the privacy of their hotel room makes me really grateful for the people I work with.
       3. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 12:03 pm

          The coworkers made a choice to break the law. We might think it’s a stupid law, but it’s still a law.
       4. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 12:03 pm

          I’m with you on this. I really don’t understand the willingness to throw a grenade into someone’s life in this manner, or the outsize reaction to being offered a joint one time.
       5. Mustache Cat* April 12, 2017 at 12:12 pm

          Yeah, I agree with you.

          Listen. We ALL know it’s illegal, and that the people breaking the law made the choice, et cetera, as nauseum. But you don’t get to ignore the failings of society when you make the decision to call the police. If you make the deliberate decision to report on something that wasn’t hurting you directly, you don’t get to ignore the fact that they may potentially suffer drastically outsized consequences that haunt them for the rest of their lives. “It’s the law” is a pretty shoddy excuse when the law is constructed out of racism, paranoia, and abuse of power.
          1. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 12:23 pm

             Sally did not call the police. The hotel did.
             1. Super Anon* April 12, 2017 at 2:34 pm

                I don’t know about you, but I have been a reader for a long time and it is disappointing and unbelievable to me how many commenters either didn’t read the letter or are deliberately ignoring it.
          2. Alton* April 12, 2017 at 12:40 pm

             I agree. Rationally, no, the reporter isn’t responsible for what happens as a result of an honest report made in good faith. In reality, it’s not that straightforward and it’s hard to totally divorce yourself from the consequences. I don’t think people should never report things. Obviously reporting is often the safest or best thing to do. But it’s not always something to take lightly, and people who report sometimes end up feeling betrayed or violated as well if things are taken in a direction that they didn’t intend.
    2. AMG* April 12, 2017 at 11:54 am

       But why? I am not criticizing you; I don’t understand and I think insights into someone’s line of thinking this way will help. Would you insist on the transfer too?
    3. Not a Real Giraffe* April 12, 2017 at 12:01 pm

       And I think the general consensus of the comments agree with you here — that this should have been reported to the company to handle before raising it to the level of involving the authorities. I’m pretty MYOB about other people’s pot use, but if I had been Sally and it had made me really uncomfortable, I would have sent an email to my manager’s boss letting them know what happened and asking that it be handled internally.
    4. Chickaletta* April 12, 2017 at 12:40 pm

       While I respect your viewpoint, what would you hope to accomplish by reporting your coworkers in this situation? Other than trying to separate yourself from being accused with them (I didn’t think one could be arrested by association, maybe I’m wrong?), what would you hope the ultimate outcome would be? That your coworkers would turn away from drugs? That you would be rewarded by your company? Do you not want to work around people who smoke pot or break rules, and so by reporting them you’d hope that they would be fired? If so, do you think it’s possible to eliminate everyone from your life who doesn’t play by the rules to the same degree as you?
65. A mouse who is Anon* April 12, 2017 at 11:44 am

    While I overall agree with Allison’s advice in terms of assessing whether Sally’s transfer would make sense, and am glad that people agree that the manager was way, way out of line, I’m not entirely sure I agree that Sally was overreacting, at least when it comes to the hotel and the bus thing. I am a little baffled that we’re now using the “tattling” language for reporting illegal activity against hotel policy that directly affects you/your group. I understand the not your business thing, but the manager made it Sally’s business when he pressured her to join. (And yes, I use pressured, because if you invite a subordinate to your hotel room on a work trip and offer them a joint there is no way there is not pressure, regardless of your intentions. Frankly, I would feel the same way if my supervisor had invited me and my coworker to his hotel room and offered us shots, although this is coloured by the fact that I am almost always the only woman along on these trips.) I probably wouldn’t report it to the hotel, but I would be strongly tempted to go home instead of being stuck in a foreign city with a supervisor and coworker who made me feel unsafe, doubly so if what they’re doing is illegal. I think it’s also worth keeping in mind that it was the hotel who involved the police, not Sally.

    Which isn’t to say that you have to give in to Sally’s ultimatum, if it makes no sense to transfer her. But I highly doubt it makes sense to keep her in her current role.
66. Anonymous Poster* April 12, 2017 at 11:44 am

    I’m against marijuana use, but I also don’t think it’s really a big deal.

    I think Sally did overreact after reporting the activity, but by now that’s all just a bygone in the end. I’m not sure how you’d have the conversation about her overreaction without looking like at least a little of the following:
    A) You’re a drug user that she’ll be keeping a close eye on
    B) You’re retaliating for her reporting a crime taking place
    You might be able to address her up and leaving like she did. Is there a travel process or something? Perhaps she should have alerted someone before just up and doing it? I could see a conversation about that being reasonable.

    I don’t really think this is too salvageable though, because she is so upset. If you can transfer her, great, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see her leaving within a year or two anyway. I’m not sure you’d want to transfer her, train her, and have her leave in a year. Instead, could you offer her a severance package as a part of her quitting? Along the lines of, we understand this professional relationship is broken at this point and a transfer isn’t in the cards, but since you’ll be leaving here’s something to help you in that process?
    1. Mazzy* April 12, 2017 at 12:20 pm

       The more I read the more I errr to Sally’s side. The comments not in favor of Sally are basically “she’s dramatic” or “pot use is ok.” Those arguments are not going to sway me to think sally was in the wrong
       1. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 12:34 pm

          Try Mustache Cat’s comment above for that; I’m definitely more on Sally’s side than some, but I think MC does a good job of outlining the context in which police involvement happens and makes the situation more than a simple binary.
          1. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 12:56 pm

             So the witness to illegal activity should determine whether to report it based on the appropriateness of the potential consequences? No! The law breaker the one deciding the risks are worth it.
             1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:02 pm

                “So the witness to illegal activity should determine whether to report it based on the appropriateness of the potential consequences? No!”

                Yes. Absolutely. You do it every day, you just impose a different arbitrary standard on it.
                1. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 1:09 pm

                   So people shouldn’t report murder or any other crime if they disagree with the potential punishment?
                   1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 1:48 pm

                      I’ll be happy to discuss the ethics of this situation, as soon as you stop trying to argue your point with slippery slope fallacies.
                      1. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 2:28 pm

                         The ethics I follow is if you break the law you should be prepared to accept the consequences whether you agree with them or not.
                      2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 2:46 pm

                         That’s obvious to the point of tautology and doesn’t even speak to my point.
                      3. Anonymous 40* April 12, 2017 at 2:46 pm

                         That was a strawman, not a slippery slope.
                      4. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 2:48 pm

                         Porque no los dos?
                      5. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 3:12 pm

                         i don’t see what’s objectionable about accepting that some people feel like weed is serious enough to report. You or I may not agree but it’s hard to argue that everyone who doesn’t agree with me is wrong.
                2. Admin Assistant* April 12, 2017 at 5:22 pm

                   Exactly — this is why I don’t call the cops on a car making an illegal U-turn at an empty intersection, or on the couple drinking wine with their picnic in a park where alcohol isn’t allowed, or a kid jumping the turnstile on the metro. In all of these scenarios people are breaking the law, but I use my judgment because these are incredibly minor infractions with low stakes that, if taken seriously by the cops for some reason (not that I think the 5-0 are going to come tearing down to the park because a couple is sitting on a blanket drinking chardonnay), could result in outsized consequences, whether fines or other charges. The impact of the colleagues’ illegal activity on Sally was MINIMAL compared to the impact of her calling the cops.
    2. Anonymous Poster* April 12, 2017 at 3:38 pm

       Wow, I feel like this thread got silly.

       I can see why Sally did what she did, though it got ridiculous quickly. The business should address her traveling like she did, it’s not like the manager had keys to her room and could do strange things in retaliation after her report. She could then contact the company, explain the situation, and figure out where to go from there. She instead decided to book travel on her own and bail from a business conference. She wasn’t physically in danger nor was there any possibility of that, and I think this is something the business could address without the optics of, “We penalize employees for reporting what they believe is criminal activity.”

       I also am not sure I’d want Sally on my team anyway, even though I’m not a fan of marijuana use. Having her quit seems like it would open you up to PR nightmares or her suing claiming your retaliation against her good-faith complaint to law enforcement led to her having to quit her job. That’s why I’d suggest a severance, so that she doesn’t have a leg to stand on, and if you’re really concerned, incentive to sign a general release so she doesn’t pursue any legal options (even if they’re unfounded, they’d be a hassle and potentially expensive).
67. whichsister* April 12, 2017 at 11:45 am

    Feelings about Marijuana aside:

    The supervisor should be terminated. It was still an illegal act, and he or she included subordinates into it. They were at a conference representing the company.

    2nd employee should be reprimanded. Only because they were offered the drug by a supervisor and may have felt it necessary to partake because of the dynamic. If the 2nd employee had been the one offering it would be different

    Sally. Sally. Sally. Sally should have contacted someone back at the home office. She should not have gone home on a greyhound and left the conference. It’s not about the legality of the act. It’s about her unprofessional response of basically abandoning her job. I am sure it was all the gossip at the conference the next day. It was her responsibility to represent the company in a professional manner. In regards to the transfer, if she is the most qualified and would be selected without the hanging over the head ultimatum, she should should be transferred. If not, let her quit.
    1. mf* April 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm

       Great comment. “It’s not about the legality of the act. It’s about her unprofessional response of basically abandoning her job.” –> This. If Sally was so upset by what happened, she should’ve called HR or her boss’s boss to discuss her options. Instead she just left without asking or notifying anybody. What if she had been at her regular workplace and her boss had done something inappropriate or illegal, like doing recreational drugs in his/her office? Does that mean Sally can just walk out and go home for the day? Of course not–the right thing to do would be to go straight to HR.

       And yes, I agree that the manager should probably be fired. He (she?) broke the law during work-related travel and encouraged his subordinate to do so too. I’m pro-legalization but frankly, this just shows such poor judgment that I could never trust this manager again.
       1. Evan Þ* April 12, 2017 at 1:27 pm

          Could she have called HR late at night from her private phone? Even if she could, did she know that she could, and did she know the number? I suppose my Very Large Corporation probably has such a number, but I don’t have the least idea what it is, and I wouldn’t even know how to look it up from somewhere off the intranet.

          What’s more, did she know this is the sort of thing which deserves a call to the 24-hour HR Emergency Number? Before reading this post, I’m not sure I would have.
          1. JHunz* April 12, 2017 at 3:03 pm

             If it was important enough to leave the conference entirely it seems reasonable to assume it was important enough to call somebody
    2. Lies, damn lies and...* April 12, 2017 at 1:37 pm

       Should the manager be fired? I don’t know. Does the company have a policy on drug use? If not, the reprimand may be appropriate, though it’s unclear what that reprimand was.
68. Sparkly Librarian* April 12, 2017 at 11:46 am

    Wow, from the title “employee got her colleagues arrested for smoking pot at a conference and now wants a transfer”, I was expecting something different — say, the smoker got in trouble with the law/the employer and is now asking for a favor in career development. I don’t think Sally “got her colleagues arrested” any more than an employee reporting illegal behavior in the workplace “got her colleagues fired”. Their own actions were the problem.
    1. Mazzy* April 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm

       I was originally a but pro-reprimanding sally but the more I read the more I’m thinking along more sinplistic lines like this. I know situations are always complicated but this reminds me of some of the good sounding excuses I’ve hear to drive drink (no one on those roads, I’ve done it before and my tolerance level is high, I’ll pull over if I don’t feel good) and I am totally against driving drunk. Why can’t we just let the known laws get enforced? Why do we have to think of all the reasons breaking the law makes sense or isn’t as bad as you think, or if the punishment is going to be inconvenient?
       1. JHunz* April 12, 2017 at 3:09 pm

          Laws against marijuana possession and use were conceived in racism and have been one of the largest factors in the overdevelopment of the prison-industrial complex in the country. “It’s the law” ignores historical and current context in favor of a comfortingly simplistic view of the justice system that you can really only possess if you’ve had the pleasure of never being caught up in it.
    2. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 1:11 pm

       If the situation was her boss was sexually harassing her, would the title have been “employee got her boss arrested…”?
69. Fronzel Neekburm* April 12, 2017 at 11:46 am

    Man. This one has everything.

    I know the default is to “pick sides” but honestly, literally everyone handled this as poorly as possible. (for the record, I’m pro-pot legalization, and i think the current laws we have are based on racism, fear, and moneys for certain industries.)

    The two colleagues should not have brought pot on the trip. End of story. They were at a conference representing the company, and they were bringing an illegal substance into the the building, smoking it in a semi-public area (did they think no one would smell it?), and which ended up being arrested and are now probably known as “hey that company that got people arrested.

    But Sally… Poor, Sally. Welcome to the real world. If she didn’t want to smoke pot, she had the full option to walk away, even if they were attacking her like a bad DARE video, because Sally is an adult. She should have said no, then reported things back at the office later. She was right to refuse, in this case, to be honest with you. But coming back early (without notifying OP – which left the company without representation) calling the police (which, while a legal issue, still puts the company in a bad light) then insisting that everyone be fired is WAY over the top, as you have said. Sally, as far as the OP reports, does not have hiring or firing powers.

    Sorry, one of my pet peeves is “hey, we should fire this person!” said by someone that has no say in the matter.

    All three reputations are probably damaged within the company (good luck getting someone else to travel with Sally) and I’m sure OP’s company is damaged enough right now.

    That being said, I wouldn’t transfer Sally. This is about choices, in this case all of them bad. Sally could have easily picked up the phone and said “how do I handle this?” The manager and colleague could have been removed from the conference and a replacement team sent out for the morning, they got a reprimand, and drama lightened up. But instead, we have three people who are slamming their hands down on the “poor choices” button.

    Bottom line: They shouldn’t have smoked in a hotel (of all places) when they were on company-(ish) time. Sally should have behaved like a responsible adult and employee who could have made thing better, but chose to make things so much more worse.
    1. Allypopx* April 12, 2017 at 11:49 am

       I agree with everything you’re saying here, but I’m curious why you wouldn’t transfer Sally. Because it feels like rewarding her? I just feel like it’s so unrealistic to expect everyone to move on a work amicably together after this, and while Sally needs a reality check, asking her to work for a boss that she got arrested seems like it’s going to cause further problems.
       1. Fronzel Neekburm* April 12, 2017 at 3:30 pm

          I meant to say this in my reply, but I totally left it out in that I felt the Manager probably shouldn’t be a manager anymore after this. It’s still poor judgement. I don’t think he should have any say over anything anyone does for quite some time.

          But…

          Sally is the one who helped create a worse situation out of a bad one. I have severe anxiety. Like… so bad i can barely move. When I am having it, there’s two ways the people i love can deal with it: Make it worse which will prolong it, or deal with it any number of ways that will make things easier, but not exactly excuse all of my actions. i still own them. it’s this way with Sally.

          Look, if she walked away and reported him to the manager… great! Do that. That’s what she should have done. She should have gotten him replaced immediately, thrown out of the conference, replaced with doing what she needed to do. But she essentially lit the fuse then walked away in slow motion and doesn’t want to deal with the outcome.

          The letter writer even responded in this response thread that she CONTINUED to escalate.

          i don’t know Sally. I know Sally from this letter. But I’ve met those that continue to escalate everything so that the smallest issue is suddenly huge. I’ve seen them turn “did you forget to sign that form?” into lawsuits. To me, this sounds like it. There was a right way to handle this. (Call the boss and HR, get them removed.) There’s an extreme wrong way to handle this. (Smoke, or not do anything and find out the next morning when someone else complains about the smell.) Or there’s the drama filled way to do this: Alert the police (and yes, I know she alerted the hotel as the person below me said. She knew what would happen next) then leave in the most dramatic way possible (in the middle of the night on a bus), show pictures to everyone, and then be angry when she didn’t get her desired outcome.)

          Sally made the very careful choice. I just think she should have to live with that choice.
    2. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 11:59 am

       Two inaccuracies:
       1) Sally did not call the police. The hotel did.
       2) The letter does not say that Sally insisted “that everyone be fired.” It said she objected to the fact that they were not fired. (Slight but important difference. She may have *also* advocated firing them, but the letter does not say that)
       1. Fronzel Neekburm* April 12, 2017 at 3:32 pm

          Thank you. I shall read more carefully in the future.

          Still gotta stick with the position the firing, though. She’s not the one who doles out the punishments. (Thankfully for that office.)
          1. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 4:59 pm

             #2 may be be splitting hairs. Curse of being an engineer.

             Totally agree about not letting people dictate who gets fired.
       2. Doe-Eyed* April 12, 2017 at 3:33 pm

          Regarding #2, I would be fairly shocked if one of my coworkers was arrested for illegal drug use on a business trip WITH coworkers and did not get fired.
70. Flapjack* April 12, 2017 at 11:47 am

    I would have been obliged to report this to my employer. I don’t think I would have told the hotel though.
71. Anonymous for this one* April 12, 2017 at 11:47 am

    I think it also depends on Sally’s personal experiences for why she reacted the way she did (without knowing more details on what happened in the room).

    I am personally against using weed (me, not others in private) because I watched my father beat my mom and us when he was high. I know everyone doesn’t react this way, but he did. I associate seeing people smoking weed now with being beaten and it is something I am getting help with.

    If my manager had pulled me into a hotel room and offered it (or maybe already was smoking it), then it would make me uneasy. I would decline and leave. I wouldn’t have told the hotel or left but I would have probably talked to the manager’s boss or HR when I returned to express my concern on my manager doing something illegal in front of me.

    The power dynamic is different with managers and for some, it can be a painful thing to come up. If they do it in their own homes, then fine. But on a business trip, with your team you apparently don’t know well — incredibly bad judgment call. It also puts the company at risk.
72. my name is Rory* April 12, 2017 at 11:51 am

    For the record, I am pro-legalization and think that the drug laws in America are ridiculous, but I am giving major side eye to the manager who invited a subordinate of the opposite sex into his hotel room at night to partake in an illegal activity and offer her something that alters moods / creates a high. Her taking a trip home on the greyhound in the middle of the night is a total overreaction but I even understand her taking a picture so she would have proof of what happened in case her manager told a different story. I think both Sally and her manager didn’t show the best judgement here.
    1. Lies, damn lies and...* April 12, 2017 at 1:41 pm

       Right??? Everyone left their common sense at home that week.
73. Statler von Waldorf* April 12, 2017 at 11:52 am

    Wow. As a Canadian whose government is tabling legislation to legalize pot tomorrow, this one makes my head spin. All I can say is that if Sally was my employee, she wouldn’t get a chance to quit because I would fire her on the spot.
    1. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 12:00 pm

       In the U.S., you’d have to be careful on your reasoning; this could be one of the rare legitimate wrongful terminations if you fire her for reporting illegal activity.
       1. Statler von Waldorf* April 12, 2017 at 12:41 pm

          She left her assigned workplace without notifying management. Job abandonment is a just cause for firing under Canadian law.
          1. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 12:43 pm

             Sure, that would be the counterargument. But in the US this would have some teeth in a way that most wrongful term accusations don’t.
74. ellis55* April 12, 2017 at 11:54 am

    I would not have chosen to behave like Sally – ever. That said, I think the legality is more than just a principle thing. I will allow that her *calling the police* herself complicates this a little bit, but people may have different tolerances for placing themselves at legal risk. If Sally is undocumented, a person of color, if she is on probation or has a criminal history that could place her in serious jeopardy, if she faces drug testing for volunteer or other positions, an overreaction makes a lot more sense. “Just a possession charge” is not just a possession charge for everyone, particularly those groups for whom interaction with the police is fraught and terrifying. Those are all reasons for legalization, sure, but until that happens they’re all 100% valid.

    If she believed that she’d be risking that kind of interaction by association by sticking around, well, I can see why she’d go to great lengths to avoid that.

    Also, as someone who deals with similar instances at work (volunteers do sometimes report drug use on the “job” to us), we generally advise them that while we can officially discipline someone, if they feel immediate danger or discomfort ultimately only the appropriate authority (police, in this case) would be the ones to handle that. I also don’t know that we could or would require them to stay – sure, it’s worth a conversation and she didn’t have one but is the end result that meaningfully different? Would you have insisted she stay? How would you have mitigated the types of risks she deemed unacceptable? How would you handle the possibility of retaliation when she was states away? It doesn’t seem viable to just tell her to “be more chill.”
    1. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 12:00 pm

       She did not call the police. The hotel did.
       1. ellis55* April 12, 2017 at 12:11 pm

          Ah, good catch. In either case, her leaving makes sense if she was concerned about even a small chance of a possession charge. It might even make MORE sense if she herself didn’t involve the police.

          Although this is none of the above, I’ll give the example – in my field, a single possession charge would be career-ending for me. Regardless of how I feel about the logic of the law, how justified it is, etc. I just can’t ever take the risk until it’s legal. Totally black-and-white, and I would be very nervous if I were in a situation where I couldn’t manage my associations to avoid any chance of that. It definitely wouldn’t be worth it to me to jeopardize myself just for my manager with serious judgment issues to think I’m cool.
    2. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 12:08 pm

       Okay, I’m just going to point out here that your logic is flawed. If Sally was not legally in the US, she couldn’t be working legally at this job. If Sally was on probation or had a record, the last thing that she would do is involve police or encourage others to involve police, because she would, rightly, fear the impact of additional police involvement.

       I’m not sure why you think if Sally was a WOC, she would involve the authorities, because, frankly, over-policing is a problem in certain minority communities, and it’s not like she would want to contribute to that.
       1. ellis55* April 12, 2017 at 12:14 pm

          So, it looks like – see above – she didn’t involve the police but rather the hotel did. It’s factually incorrect that anyone with a criminal record can never get a job. It’s also incorrect that no undocumented person has ever held down a job, but even if she’s here legally on a visa they’re not super psyched when you have interactions with the police, particularly in this climate.

          And hey, she might even be involved in a custody battle wherein a drug charge would be pretty devastating. You just don’t know, so the overarching point is that it’s not an overreaction to want to steer as clear of that as possible for a lot of reasons that may not be immediately apparent to the average person.
          1. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 12:53 pm

             I didn’t say that “no undocumented person has ever held down a job” – I pointed out that Sally could not be undocumented and working at this job. Not the same thing. If she has a visa, she’s documented.
             1. ellis55* April 12, 2017 at 1:27 pm

                I think a closer read of what I said acknowledges that –

                “It’s also incorrect that no undocumented person has ever held down a job, but even if she’s here legally on a visa they’re not super psyched when you have interactions with the police, particularly in this climate.”

                So, 1. A lot of folks without documentation do have jobs. As someone who works closely with these communities, it’s not uncommon to buy fake socials, etc. – and many employers don’t look that closely or don’t know they’re fake – the taxes they submit just end up submitted and not linked to anyone. Sure, you can’t show up and request social security later if you do that but that’s not the immediate point.

                2. In any case, even if she’s here on a visa you don’t have broad latitude to break the law or be associated with anyone who does. She would have heightened perception of scrutiny, and that would explain a lot.
       2. ellis55* April 12, 2017 at 12:17 pm

          I also don’t know how close you’ve been to someone actively on probation, but in some cases it would be helpful to say “yes, but I reported it and left immediately” rather than having to say “well, I wasn’t doing that but people around me were.”
          1. GreatLakesGal* April 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm

             Exactly.
    3. Mazzy* April 12, 2017 at 12:27 pm

       Being a person of color would have made her more entitled to call the police? Isn’t that a tad infantilizing and thus racist to “people of color.” (And getting tired of that word since it includes such a huge swath of people)
       1. ellis55* April 12, 2017 at 1:17 pm

          Nope; I’m just saying different communities have different relationships to law enforcement. It’s not so much saying she’s entitled so much as pointing out that not everyone subjectively experiences the same amount of perceived risk and anxiety vis-a-vis police.

          A white, middle-class person who grew up in a community with minimal policing probably has a different risk perception when deciding to get high in a hotel room or hang out with folks they know are carrying and using illegal substances than others with different backgrounds. There’s caveats and exceptions, but I don’t think any of those detract from the general point.
          1. Mazzy* April 12, 2017 at 3:37 pm

             OK now I understand what you meant. I thought you were talking about real threat in this situation and not perception, I guess I could see how the perception would be different.
75. Kelly White* April 12, 2017 at 11:55 am

    I think there was an overreaction on Sally’s part- but honestly, it seems like a major underreaction by the company. I mean, this manager invited a subordinate into his hotel room to do something illegal. He must have known there was a bit of a risk involved there, and he is getting away with it. And everyone is coming down on Sally.

    Do I disagree with how she handled it, yes. But the manger did something illegal with his direct reports!!
76. Not a paralegal* April 12, 2017 at 11:58 am

    The extreme lack of judgment from both the manager and Sally is jaw-dropping. I just hope there’s more to that reprimand than it indicates, and OP is just trying to be discreet. As for Sally, the law was broken, she reported it, the two were arrested. She should be satisfied that justice was served. But since she isn’t, then Alison’s list of questions re what to do with her demand is spot on. So unless there was more than what OP or Sally says happened, they should accept Sally’s offer to quit if the answer to any of those question is a no.
77. GigglyPuff* April 12, 2017 at 12:00 pm

    Actually after re-reading the post, I’m wondering if Sally’s actions were a little less malicious than they seem to be on the first read and how most people are reading it, and based more in the fleeing action she took.

    After another read, it almost sounds like, yes Sally took a picture to prove to the company what her boss and coworker did (not saying I approve, but others had mentioned that seemed a little less radical than taking it to show the hotel), and then I could see her going to the front desk to check out, the hotel asking why she was leaving early and her telling them then.

    Just seems that could’ve been another way it happened.
    1. Murphy* April 12, 2017 at 12:06 pm

       I don’t read her reaction as malicious at all. I read it as she was freaked out, horrified, and offended.
       1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:11 pm

          I agree, but I also think that getting this freaked out, horrified and offended over pot is ridiculous.
          1. Murphy* April 12, 2017 at 12:22 pm

             Yeah, it’s definitely way out of proportion.
       2. GigglyPuff* April 12, 2017 at 12:18 pm

          Sorry malicious wasn’t really the right word, I guess “extreme” probably would’ve been better. Mainly I’m just wondering if the hotel finding out was a little less deliberate than assumed, which many of the comments seem to be discussing.
          1. LCL* April 12, 2017 at 1:51 pm

             Malicious was exactly the right word. Not as regards to informing the front desk, but because she took. A. Picture. I could forgive Sally her overreaction, if she grew up with drug chaos. But the picture is a clear sign that she intended to extort someone if she could get away with it. I would ask Sally to explain her actions and what she was thinking, with favoring firing her if I could.
    2. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 12:09 pm

       Okay, assuming that your explanation is correct … she was already leaving the hotel at that point, so why rat out her colleagues?
       1. GigglyPuff* April 12, 2017 at 12:22 pm

          Not sure, maybe she was visibly upset and the front desk pushed to make sure she was okay. Or angry and wanted to rant…but yeah not saying it was right, but possibly less deliberate than intentionally going to the hotel to complain and expect something to be done.
    3. ByLetters* April 12, 2017 at 12:12 pm

       The only problem I have with this theory is that — as a hotelier myself — I cannot even imagine they would have reacted to her simple mention by calling the cops and getting other guests arrested. Unless there are threats of violence, we just don’t operate that way, especially not over smoking. If this had been reported at every hotel I’ve ever worked at (and I’ve worked in nasty hotels, nice hotels, vacation properties and business/conference hotels) we would maybe try and gather evidence of smoking and slap a fee on the room.

       That’s it.

       The only reason we’d have gotten anyone else involved would be if a guest made a huge issue of us not doing so.
78. Eduardo Ramirez* April 12, 2017 at 12:01 pm

    I can see a sequence of events where everything Sally did was reasonable. I’m not saying it’s so, but I don’t automatically assume she is acting crazy. And I say this as someone who, while a teetotaler, is 100% in favor of legalization.
    Imagine she’s in a room with colleagues. They light up. You decline to join in and leave the room. If she’s on a different floor she should almost certainly leave it alone, but if she’s on the same floor and can still smell it? Calling the front desk seems perfectly reasonable . They are the ones who called the cops, not her.
    Now she’s looking out her peephole at cops in the hallway, which may not have been her intention. If I had just inadvertently gotten my boss arrested, a boss whose judgement I recently had reason to question, getting out of Dodge and waiting till Monday to deal with the fallout would be mighty tempting. Especially compared to sharing a cab to the airport. And I definitely would not want to report to that boss going forward. How could anyone expect that person to write a fair performance review?
    1. ANON FOR THIS* April 12, 2017 at 12:14 pm

       I do not smoke but my SO does. In our master bathroom with the door closed. I cannot smell it from the bedroom.
       1. GigglyPuff* April 12, 2017 at 12:26 pm

          It depends on how well built the building is, every place I’ve lived, house split into apartments or apartment complexes, smoke/smell leaked into my apartment pretty fast.
       2. A mouse who is Anon* April 12, 2017 at 12:28 pm

          This is interesting, because my housemate would very occasionally smoke in the basement, and I could always smell it from my room at the other end of the house, so I do wonder if there’s a level of desensitisation going on.
          1. Allison* April 12, 2017 at 12:54 pm

             I can usually smell it when one of my neighbors is smoking in the building, or just outside. The neighbors I share a balcony with used to smoke weed outside on nice nights and I’d always smell it, and if someone was smoking inside their apartment I’d almost always smell it in the hallway.
       3. K.* April 12, 2017 at 2:14 pm

          Oh, I used to live across the hall from a group of guys that smoked a lot after work and you could smell it in the hallway and right inside the door to our apartment.
    2. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 12:29 pm

       This. I posted something similar on the bird phobia letter. I think that this comment section would be a lot more constructive if we tried for charitable interpretations of people’s behavior (as referenced in the commenting rules).
       1. Meghan* April 12, 2017 at 1:04 pm

          Agreed. I think a lot of people here are letting their personal feelings about marijuana and legalization color their judgement of Sally’s actions and reactions.
       2. WPH* April 12, 2017 at 4:07 pm

          Agreed. I noticied a lot of similarities between this discussion and the bird phobia one mainly in the “uncharitableness” to the women in the situations.
79. Isabelle* April 12, 2017 at 12:02 pm

    Sally and her colleague were offered an illegal substance by their manager on a business trip.
    I have a lax attitude towards recreation drugs, but I would still be horrified if I was offered some by someone in a position of power over me at work.

    This is so beyond the pale that I’m amazed the manager was only reprimanded and not fired.
    1. Althea* April 12, 2017 at 12:48 pm

       Yes! I feel like too many people are eliding over the position of power the manager had.
80. Yet Even Another Alison* April 12, 2017 at 12:03 pm

    I have not read every response so this may have been mentioned in a prior posting. I have no issue with recreational use of marijuana personally. However, as a DoD contractor and security clearance holder, illegal drug use, if proven, will likely result in your clearance being revoked. This is serious and will most likely impact your ability to stay employed (this is important to me as it is to most). It does not matter if smoking marijuana is legal in a particular state as US government security clearance holders are subject to the Fed’s laws (if they differ from the state’s). I would be extremely angry if co-workers, cleared or not, put me in a situation that may compromise my security clearance. I would express my feelings in no uncertain terms and leave the area immediately(in this case, the hotel room). However, reacting like Sally did in the letter, in my opinion, suggests that she harbors other issues and I would want no part of having someone work for me that behaves in the manner that she did. Calling the police so that they would be arrested is over the top and extreme. This is not as if someone was being assaulted or taken against their will. And now her co-workers have a criminal record for an act, done willingly, that impacts no one but themselves. I hope she can live with herself. Karma is not kind.
    1. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 12:31 pm

       Interesting. From what I’ve seen, it’s lying about drug use (or anything really) on the forms that’s the big deal. I’ve read lots of (secondhand) accounts of people who disclosed and had no problems.
       1. Evan Þ* April 12, 2017 at 1:31 pm

          I’ve heard of people disclosing past drug use without any problems, but I’d be really surprised if they were fine with current drug use.
81. Jessi* April 12, 2017 at 12:04 pm

    I would fire the manager.

    Morally, I agree with the decriminalisation of prostitution but if my manager invited me to join him while he was paying for a prostitue’s services, I wouldn’t call the cops or even the hotel, but I would expect him to be fired if I told someone higher up in the company.
    1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:10 pm

       Really, though? Prostitution is tied up in a whole lot of other issues like trafficking of women. All crimes are not equally morally reprehensible, and this scenario is on a pretty different level than recreational pot smoking. The manager shouldn’t be doing either on a work trip, but the punishment for one should/would be very different than the punishment for the other.
       1. Jessi* April 12, 2017 at 12:18 pm

          A lot of sex workers oppose there being an automatic connection made between sex work and human trafficking and see it as another way sex work can be delegitimatised as a profession.

          TBH where I live sex work is already decriminalised (I am Australian) but if I were in a place where it was illegal, I would expect the hypothetical manager to be fired.
          1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:23 pm

             Yeah, I knew someone was going to say that. I know and agree that the auto-assumption isn’t good, but like it or not that issue IS tied up in exploitation in national conversation and perception while marijuana isn’t. All I’m saying is that those two issues are different in complexity and can’t be equated here.
             1. Jessi* April 12, 2017 at 12:30 pm

                Marijuana has its own controversial conversations surrounding it. Both are illegal activities that have supporters and opposers who feel strongly either way.
                1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:37 pm

                   Yeah, so if you’re really dedicated to this analogy, then so be it. But nobody asked coworkers to partake in a sex act with them.
                2. ReneeB* April 12, 2017 at 1:42 pm

                   I’m inclined to agree with you.

                   Marijuana may be less morally objectionable than prostitution on the basis of trafficking, but marijuana trafficking is not morally in the clear either. Recreational users of sex work and of marijuana are not reprehensible criminals, far from it. Neither should be treated as criminals. But the larger networks that provide supply to meet the demand are criminal networks and as such have extremely dirty hands. In both cases.

                   Is legalization the answer to both? So that end users are decriminalized, people who may want out can get out, and the sunlight of regulation cleans up moral quandaries? There’s a legitimate argument in both cases.

                   But simply saying that there is no possible morally objectionable side to marijuana trafficking is not realistic. A simple consideration of the drug cartels that run the northern provinces of Mexico can tell you that.
       2. Mazzy* April 12, 2017 at 12:30 pm

          Everything is tied up with other issues though why do you think prostitution is different?
          1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:39 pm

             I think the conversation about why it would be fireable (or Sally’s reaction justified in response to) to engage in soliciting a prostitute on a work trip is very different than a conversation about marijuana on a work trip. This is getting off topic so I’ll leave this here. I just wholly disagree with the analogy.
       3. Anon for this* April 12, 2017 at 12:34 pm

          And marijuana, especially in a state where it’s illegal, isn’t tied up in other issues? Really?
    2. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 12:23 pm

       That’s a really poor comparison. We don’t need to even compare this scenario to other hypotheticals. This one actually happened.
       1. Jessi* April 12, 2017 at 12:28 pm

          I agree that hypotheticals aren’t necessary (are they ever?) but I don’t think the comparison is terrible. They’re both illegal activities in the states that people feel strongly about opposing/supporting.
       2. animaniactoo* April 12, 2017 at 12:30 pm

          Among other reasons that it’s a poor comparison is that it crosses the sexual relationships with co-workers boundary, and unless everyone’s part of the duck club, it oversteps on a level of general human interaction as well.
          1. Jessi* April 12, 2017 at 12:38 pm

             I didn’t say the manager in this situation asked me to engage with him romantically. I said he asked me to join him while he was paying for a prostitute, which could even be before they engaged in sex, at a bar or something.

             I would still expect it to be an offence you should be fired for.
             1. animaniactoo* April 12, 2017 at 1:07 pm

                Pardon me, I did not read that as literally the “paying” as in cash handover or soliciting portion. Because why would he invite you to join him at that point? What would be the purpose? I could see if you happened to be already present while he went off to do that, but I can’t imagine why he would invite you to be present for the negotiation, etc. unless he was expecting/offering your participation as well.

                Even so… unless he’s paying with company money, whether I reported it or not would depend on how blatant he was about it, and whether the company fired him for it or not I would expect to be dependent on a number of factors, not simply the fact of the existence of this single offense.
82. SeptemberGrrl* April 12, 2017 at 12:04 pm

    In this case, Alison, I think your response is off-base.
    – An employee was on a work trip and was invited to a supervisor’s room to participate in an illegal activity.
    – The employee alerted the front desk about the illegal activity, and they alerted the police.

    And many people are just aghast at what a narc/tattletale the employee is and thinks that the employee should suck it up or QUIT. On what planet does a business want to encourage its employees to only follow the laws that individual managers approve of? ARE YOU PEOPLE HIGH !? ;)

    1. The manager who invited employees into this hotel room to break the law is FIRED. End of story. The other employee is reprimanded ( since begin asked by a superior is inherent pressure, firing her is not warranted).
    2. Sally’s situation is handled in two parts:
    – Abject apologies that her MANAGER put her in the situation of being asked to participate in a crime.
    – Serious discussion about how poorly she handled it – the nature of this discussion would be determined by whether this instance of poor judgement (in her reaction) is out of character for her or part of a pattern.

    In no way should Sally come out of this situation worse off then the folks who committed the crime.

    I have no problem with marijuana being legalized but until/unless it is legal, it’s a crime and needs to be treated as such w/r/t this situation.
    1. burnout no more* April 12, 2017 at 12:13 pm

       Thank you.

       I didn’t take the time to read all the replies here, I stopped after several “Oh but it’s just pot” responses.

       Doesn’t matter if it is “just” pot. It’s illegal. Employee participated in illegal activity WHILE ON THE JOB AND/OR ACTING AS A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE COMPANY IN A WORK SETTING.

       That is a fireable offense.

       We don’t get to pick and choose which crimes are acceptable and which are not. We’d all be horrified if employee was participating in a murder. Responses would be a lot different then, huh?

       Until it’s legalizing, pot is criminal. Whether one agrees with that is not the issue here.
       1. animaniactoo* April 12, 2017 at 12:25 pm

          Shoplifting is also illegal, as is loitering, or any number of other crimes which don’t necessarily rise to the level of being a firing offense despite having committed an illegal act. There is genuine risk assessment in how bad the activity actually is in general sentiment before it becomes an issue of “We as a company cannot tolerate THIS much bad judgement/personal issues”.

          Murder is clearly worse in that the effect is not felt just by the participant but that there is an active victim and there are not appropriate damages that can be assessed to make anyone “whole” again, etc.
       2. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 12:26 pm

          But it’s not murder. And there ARE degrees of criminality, which is why misdemeanors and felonies are so different.

          Then again, I usually drive about 5 miles over the speed limit so I guess I’m practically a murderer too.
          1. animaniactoo* April 12, 2017 at 12:31 pm

             Only 5? I, uh, might want to make some adjustments…
       3. Statler von Waldorf* April 12, 2017 at 12:35 pm

          Actually, we totally can pick and choose which crimes are acceptable and which are not. Are we firing our employees because they get caught speeding? How about if they were arrested for unpaid parking tickets? Do we fire them for that too?

          I could google stupid laws and get hundred of hits for laws that are on the books and are completely ridiculous. Cutting down a cactus in Arizona can get you 25 years in prison. Is that a firing offense too?
          1. paul* April 12, 2017 at 1:03 pm

             The cactus one should be; there’s a hell of a black market for saguaros and several other native cactus species that are offered various levels of protection. It’d be about on par with poaching Gilas or C. willardi as far as severity of crimes go.

             I complain about some of the weirder wildlife laws, but protecting a slow maturing species that’s got a restricted range from unregulated collection makes a hell of a lot of sense.
          2. Electric Hedgehog* April 12, 2017 at 2:21 pm

             Yeah, as an Arizonan, I’d bet money I’d be fired if I went and cut down one of my company’s very expensive Saguaros.
83. Roscoe* April 12, 2017 at 12:07 pm

    I say let Sally leave and good riddance. Being opposed to something is one thing, having your co-workers arrested is another. It doesn’t sound like you are firing the manager or co-worker, and I can’t imagine that will be a good situation for them to work in. That takes it to a new level of purposely getting someone arrested. I can be civil and professional for a lot, that may be too far for me.
84. SJ* April 12, 2017 at 12:08 pm

    I just wanted to comment and say that when I pulled the main AAM screen up, there were 420 comments on this post.

    Now I’ve ruined it!
    1. H.C.* April 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm

       If only this was posted on April 20th too (unless Alison is saving an even more intense marijuana-related work quandary for that date, ha)
    2. Mazzy* April 12, 2017 at 12:31 pm

       Ha I’ve come here when there were 666!
85. michel* April 12, 2017 at 12:12 pm

    I think people are letting their personal opinion of drug use cloud their judgement.
    I too agree with the moral stance Alison is taking, but I do not agree with the advice.

    A manager should abide by the law when representing his company and especially so when he is with his staff.

    What you call overreacting is abiding by the law for her, there is no way a manager should put her in that position to have to make that decision.

    He/she can smoke pot whenever he wants, but not at work, I would fire the manager immediately and reprimand the other two. And apologies to Sally for being put in that position, not only the position of deciding how to react, but the possible legal problem for being present.

    Read through this blog every advice Allison makes is so you don’t offend people and be careful of legal concerns on all kind of topics, but offering illegal drugs on a company trip is cool?
    1. SeptemberGrrl* April 12, 2017 at 12:29 pm

       If this was coke, I wonder what the response would be – I think it would be much different. And it really shouldn’t be, from a management perspective. Saying that managers should make decisions based on which drug laws they do and don’t agree with personally…that is…not something that makes sense to me.
86. mf* April 12, 2017 at 12:13 pm

    Frankly, I’d be tempted to fire the manager AND Sally, since both of them have such bad judgment. The manager should never have offered his direct reports marijuana–it’s inappropriate because the drug is illegal where they live/were staying and because of the power differential between the manager and his/her employees.

    But Sally behaved inappropriately too. Whether or not she meant to get them arrested, she basically destroyed her relationship with her boss (and coworker) by tattling on them to the hotel, rather than reporting to HR. On top of that, she left the conference before it ended–and this is a trip/conference, I’m assuming, her company had paid for. Just because she didn’t like her manager’s behavior doesn’t mean she gets to leave the conference without approval from HR or somebody higher up. All in all, Sally behaved like a child and I would feel that going forward I couldn’t trust her to handle relationships with other employees or company travel in a responsible, adult-like fashion.

    *FWIW, I have never used any recreational drugs and I tend to sort of judge people who do. But I’m also pro-legalization and thinking punishing people for using weed is really, really stupid.
    1. Mazzy* April 12, 2017 at 12:33 pm

       Doesn’t during sally raise PR concerns though? Imagine a glass door review “I got fired for reporting drug use?”
       1. mf* April 12, 2017 at 12:39 pm

          That’s true–that could be an issue. I suppose you’d have to write Sally up for abandoning her work (the conference, in other words)–that, in my mind, is a fireable offense.
87. Kimberly R* April 12, 2017 at 12:13 pm

    Sally was way wrong but I definitely think the manager should face some serious consequences, possibly even termination. He chose to smoke an illegal substance in a (presumably) non-smoking room in a hotel. If anyone passing by in the hallway had smelled it, they may have alerted hotel staff and the end result would have been the same. I’m all for decriminalizing marijuana (I don’t smoke but I don’t think it should be illegal to) but as it stands, it is currently illegal and most hotel rooms are anti-smoking ANYTHING. If the manager and the other employee had taken a walk and smoked somewhere non-populated, that would have been better for everyone involved.

    Sally was way over the top here, but she does have the law on her side. It is hard to reprimand her for reporting someone who was breaking the law. I think it is worth letting her transfer to the other team/location. Her current coworkers may now think of her as a narc and may not trust her on a personal level anymore, and that could make for a strained work relationship. If I worked with her, I would be paranoid that she would report me to my manager for everything little thing. I think that getting her out of that team would be the easiest solution.
88. Manders* April 12, 2017 at 12:15 pm

    Something that might slightly sway my opinion in one direction or another: how strictly are drug laws enforced in the city that these employees normally work in? For a while, I lived in a city where recreational marijuana use was not technically legal but was essentially decriminalized because the police force had been ordered not to press charges against people caught with it. It was also famously easy to get a pot card for a medical dispensary if you wanted it or to find a friend who had one. I wouldn’t have been able to tell without some in-depth research whether a different police force in a different city had the same rules.

    The manager definitely screwed up. But it might change my opinion if he did have some reason to believe that possession and use was a minor offense or not an offense he had to worry about. And Sally went so far over the line with her reaction that the line is now a distant dot in that Greyhound’s rearview mirror.
89. Chatterby* April 12, 2017 at 12:18 pm

    I’m on Sally’s side, and would like to say it is possible the situation got away from her.
    Taking a picture to inform upper management after returning is reasonable–they would definitely want to know that their supervisors are doing and offering employees drugs while representing the business.
    Feeling like you don’t have the power to tell people who are in charge of you and out number you to stop and requesting the hotel do it for you is also a normal level of reaction. It’s what people do when another room is too loud.
    The hotel calling the cops and having her coworker and boss arrested and taken off in handcuffs probably tipped it into the “Holy crap, what is happening?!” area of traumatizing for her, which would warrant her panicking and returning home, especially since the person who was supposed to tell her what to do, her boss, had just been arrested. If she’d stayed and calmly finished the conference after taking over for her boss, that would show a level of cool bloodedness most would find unnerving to borderline sociopathic and indicate that having them arrested was her desired outcome.
    They were doing something illegal, and her boss expected her to join in. That is enough pressure. Quite a lot of people have zero exposure to drug use of any kind. Being offered a joint by your manager at your professional, grown up office job would be horrifying. A lot of people do not put marijuana on the same level as alcohol, which would have been inappropriate enough, and would see this as the equivalent of being offered meth or coke from their boss. I don’t care if you think it’s not a big deal; it is to enough people that marijuana has remained illegal in the majority of the states.
    Give her the transfer. It’s a good compromise if you don’t intend to fire people for being arrested while on a business trip. Her boss and coworker have already shown poor judgement and are unlikely to treat her well or act maturely after being arrested. It’s a risk for harassment later on and will only escalate her feelings of institutional betrayal if she has to remain as their subordinate. I could totally see something like this becoming a PR nightmare if it wound up on social media, which is more likely to happen if she stays in the current department becoming more and more disgruntled, or let go (“Company X conference goers arrested for illegal drug use: druggies given promotions, whistle blower fired”)
    1. gwal* April 12, 2017 at 12:53 pm

       “If she’d stayed and calmly finished the conference after taking over for her boss, that would show a level of cool bloodedness most would find unnerving to borderline sociopathic and indicate that having them arrested was her desired outcome.”

       just because you say something doesn’t make it true. she at least could have stayed and behaved professionally, completing the task she was hired to do. many commenters here agree with that part of the response, and do not see it as borderline sociopathic.
    2. Kj* April 12, 2017 at 1:37 pm

       Really? Doing her job the next day would make her ‘cold-blooded?’ Man, I must be super cold-blooded since i have gone to work and done my job after any number of things happened in my personal life that are more distressing than having someone offer me weed.

       Sally should have called her boss’s boss about the situation or HR and listened to them. Deciding unilaterally to take a bus out of there is ridiculous. Being offered pot is not a crime. Having a supervisor arrested is not a crime. Unless she was staying in the same room as them, she is not likely to have been associated with them in anyone’s eyes. She should have gone to the conference and done her job unless someone at the company said not to. Sally abandoned her job for silly reasons. That is a offense that her boss’s boss can and should reprimand her for and maybe fire her over. Her lack of communication with anyone at the home office is odd and off-putting to me. Her decision to flee the city shows poor judgement and drama-llama tenancies.
90. animaniactoo* April 12, 2017 at 12:19 pm

    I’ve read a bunch of the comments and Alison’s reply, and I think for me, the only thing to do is go back and ask more questions.

    First – Sally. “Sally, this is an unusually strong reaction to being offered something that – we agree with you – was not okay to be offered to you. Can you explain more about why you had such a strong reaction to it?”

    Listen, evaluate.

    Second – Profession. There are professions and industries where usage is rampant regardless of legality in a particular state. If you guys are in one of those, then it is important to discuss the reaction with Sally on the basis of “It is likely that you will come across this again, because it is so common in our industry. We support your right not to have it pushed on you – and by push we mean more than a token question about whether you would like to participate – and we support your right not to participate or be retaliated against in any way for not participating. But your level of response is going to create bigger issues that we can’t support when it is so common within our profession/industry. Would you be comfortable taking X action instead?”

    However, if it isn’t rampant AND Sally really wasn’t pushed to participate – then let Sally be Sally. Yeah, it’s over the top, but she needs to be just as free to be Sally as your employees need to be themselves and choose to break laws that they see as irritations and ridiculous more than valid issues. And frankly, given that they are breaking laws, they pretty much deserve the crapstorm based on how badly they handled the risk assessment around their own partaking. Whether I agree that it should be a law or not – if you’re prepared to break the law, you should be prepared to accept the consequences of it AND work to assess and minimize risk in all your actions around it.

    Which means that ultimately, whether you agree or not, you stand behind Sally to the rest of the company and say “Hey. While this is not the way most of us would have handled this situation, she is not in the wrong for her actions here.”

    And as for the manager and the other colleague the message to Sally is “We agree that this is problematic behavior and it has been addressed, but we don’t feel that it warrants firing. We understand if you feel that means you can’t work here.”

    Because while people may not actively retaliate against Sally, Sally also needs to live with the results of having such a strong reaction in a society that generally does not react so strongly to what most would consider (whether it legally is or not) a misdemeanor crime. So I would not transfer Sally, because she also created this situation. You should stop any actively hostile behavior, but if people are civil to her and don’t try to impede her workwise, then it may not be great, but it ain’t bad either. As long as everyone is professional, they don’t have to be friendly and buddy buddy with her. It’s the minimum for a “good” work relationship, but it’s an acceptable one that you need to support.

    Note: All of that is with the caveat that Sally really wasn’t pressured to participate.
91. MuseumChick* April 12, 2017 at 12:21 pm

    To me this whole situation comes down to judgement, “the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions”. All three people in this situation lacked it.

    1) The manager (as other have said) VERY poor judgement to 1) Do something illegal on work trip 2) Invite those under him to participate in an illegal activity.

    2) The colleague, chose to participate in an illegal activity.

    3) Sally…remember the definition of judgement above. The “sensible” conclusion here (baring some extreme circumstance not given in the letter) would have been “Fergus and Wakeen are doing something illegal. That posses no threat to anyone. I am going to remove myself from this situation, go back to my room and consider how I want to handle this. *Back in room* Hmmm, I better report this to OP when the conference is over.”

    It is not sensible to hop on a gray hound and bail on a conference. No do I think it was sensible to report it to the hotel once she and removed herself from the situation.
    1. ann perkins* April 12, 2017 at 12:53 pm

       “All three people in this situation lacked it.” Totally agree.
92. Kyrielle* April 12, 2017 at 12:22 pm

    I really think the first thing to do is ask Sally – if it hasn’t already been done – to describe the exchange in detail. As you note, Alison, what does pressure mean?

    If it means it was offered – Sally overreacted wildly.

    If it means it was pushed, and pushed, and “aw c’mon” and she was belittled?

    Then Sally overreacted a little.

    I wouldn’t have notified the hotel. But if she was pushed, and pressured, and maybe belittled, by a supervisor no less that she probably had to interact with the next day? I might not have caught a greyhound back and cut my trip short, but I probably would have called a manager back at the office once it opened the next day and asked for advice and an okay to expense a bus back rather than drive back with that supervisor, given that I would now be wildly uncomfortable. And actually, that last might also have been reasonable if they just offered, if in fact they did drive and either of the folks who did partake might be driving – I wouldn’t necessarily trust them not to have indulged or to be safe to drive.

    I live in a state where marijuana is as legal as it can get (federal law being what it is). I wouldn’t partake, but what others do is their own business. But if it was truly *pushed* on her, that’s a different scale.

    Getting them arrested (or thrown out of the hotel if that’s what she was hoping for – I mean, what other outcomes could you be looking for by telling the hotel?) was still way out of line, though. (Especially, if there actually was pressure, I feel for the coworker – what if they were just going along because they, too, were pushed, and decided partaking was the better way out for them?)

    If there truly was _pressure_ I’d be tempted to fire the supervisor in question – or put them on last notice. And I’d also be tempted to allow Sally a transfer if at all possible in that case, vs. if reasonably possible in the other.

    Honestly? This story will almost certainly get around, and Sally may be treated pretty icily, due to the ‘getting them arrested’ part, no matter where in the organization she is.
    1. animaniactoo* April 12, 2017 at 12:33 pm

       I wouldn’t be tempted to fire the manager if there was _pressure_. I would absolutely fire that manager.
       1. Althea* April 12, 2017 at 12:45 pm

          I’m failing to understand why people are skipping over the power dynamics in play. The manager offered to his subordinate, which makes the subordinate question whether it was an offer or an “offer.” If the manager had hit on Sally, we would not be questioning whether or not there was pressure – of course there was pressure, because the power dynamic makes it inherently Not Okay.
          1. animaniactoo* April 12, 2017 at 12:56 pm

             Because the pressure is perceived and may not actually be implicit, and it’s on everyone involved here to figure out which it is – including Sally.

             If Sally turned it down and there were no further repercussions for not partaking, then there really wasn’t any pressure involved. If Sally has previously not participated in things of this nature and is then getting assigned “low man on the totem pole” assignments despite being higher and showing better general competence, then the pressure is implied and can be treated as such. Which is why I think the first thing to do is to talk to Sally and ask her why she had such a strong reaction here.
             1. Althea* April 12, 2017 at 1:09 pm

                We have people writing in all the time about managers requesting things “voluntarily” such as charitable gifts, dates, etc. In every other instance, the power dynamic makes an offer inappropriate. If I was hit on by my manager, I might want to transfer as well, regardless of what kind of subsequent pressure arose. I fail to see why one must wait to see if there are further repercussions, considering the offer itself was the problem.
                1. animaniactoo* April 12, 2017 at 1:27 pm

                   And in many cases, the answer is to push back oneself first and see if that solves the issue. The power dynamic in play does not remove responsibility from oneself to attempt to handle it reasonably with a simple decline before escalating. That is the reason for the difference in a simple offering or request and having actual implied (not perceived) pressure being applied.

                   I would also take getting hit on differently, because of the not-even-a-little-bit-is-this-okay boundary around that. The other areas are much murkier imo, and I would expect to negotiate them on that basis, as needing to define my own boundaries and ONLY escalating when that did not suffice because I was receiving pushback/harassment/retaliation for it.
                   1. Althea* April 12, 2017 at 1:40 pm

                      I really don’t see the difference between being hit on vs offered a drug from a manager as far as the power dynamics and not-even-a-little-bit-is-this okay boundaries go. Both are non-work-related actions by the manager that put pressure on the subordinate. Both imply pressure regardless of the manager’s intention to come across as “pressuring.” The responsibility in neither case should be on the subordinate to check if the pressure is “real.”
                      1. animaniactoo* April 12, 2017 at 2:03 pm

                         I don’t think there’s as automatic a holy-carp-no-way boundary when it’s a) pot (not something like coke or heroin) and b) there are industries/professions where usage is fairly rampant.

                         Based on that, I don’t see this as a cut-and-dried issue and I think it’s a more complex evaluation of other factors involved (like those). I suspect that these are the same kinds of factors that other people are looking at as well in terms of the power dynamics at play.
          2. GreatLakesGal* April 12, 2017 at 1:21 pm

             Point. If my manager asks me if I would like to do something, my default is to construe it as a polite directive.
    2. Aurion* April 12, 2017 at 12:36 pm

       Agree with everything here, though I think a transfer is prudent no matter what. It’s hard for Sally to have a working relationship with her boss and not fear retaliation when they got arrested because of Sally’s report. Given Sally’s boss’ action was illegal (and extremely lacking in judgement), whether or not anyone agrees with Sally’s actions she shouldn’t be punished for them.
    3. mf* April 12, 2017 at 12:38 pm

       We’ve talked a lot on this site about how managers need to handle the power differential between themselves and their direct reports very carefully. For example, the general consensus is that it’s inappropriate for a manager to ask for donations for a fundraiser from his direct reports reports because that could be read as “pressure.” It also seems to be the general consensus here that managers ought to be *very* careful about inviting their reports to events after work hours because even a genuine invitation can be read as “pressure.”

       My point is, even if the manager didn’t actually pressure Sally, he/she never should have even *offered* weed to his/her reports. The offer itself is inappropriate because the manager should have known there was–at the very least–the possibility that his/her reports could misinterpret the offer as pressure.
       1. Aurion* April 12, 2017 at 12:42 pm

          Yeah, this. I think Alison really downplayed the implied pressure from a higher-up on this letter. If a manager pressuring about United Way is inappropriate, this is so, so much worse.
       2. Kyrielle* April 12, 2017 at 12:51 pm

          Agreed! But it goes to a whole new level if the manager applied what would be called “pressure” in a situation between peers.

          The manager screwed up, big time, regardless. But if the manager did more than offer, if the pressure was more than the power dynamic?

          “Screwed up” doesn’t begin to cover that, and it makes Sally’s reactions seem pretty reasonable, honestly.
93. (Mr.) Cajun2core* April 12, 2017 at 12:23 pm

    What if she saw them shoplifting (even if it was something small) or going to a prostitute (where it is illegal) or littering or defacing someone else’s or public property (graffiti)? Would she be off base for reporting them even to the police at that time? I would think not, as illegal is illegal.

    The main question is where do you draw the line? Obviously, I would think that everyone would agree that if she saw them robbing a bank or mugging someone (I admit, this is a straw-man argument but I am trying to make a point) that any of her actions would have been justified – even leaving the conference. Again, the main question is where do you draw the line in cases such as this?

    I wonder if the company has a “you are fired if you are convicted of a felony” policy? I do not know if possession of marijuana is a felony or not. If it is, they should be fired if they are convicted. If it is not a felony, then it is up to the manager.

    I agree she may have left
    1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:27 pm

       Shoplifting hurts people. So does graffiti, and both graffiti and littering damage communities and increase costs for businesses and governments. Possession of marijuana is a felony in some places, but it’s only a felony because of archaic and racially targeted drug laws, so I don’t agree that a felony is a felony is a felony and all illegality is equal.

       And honestly? Sally probably wouldn’t have reported shit if she saw someone littering. She freaked out about drugs and left the city. It’s not the principle of “illegal behavior” she reacted to.
       1. Imsostartled* April 12, 2017 at 12:41 pm

          I feel like this “but it doesn’t hurt anyone” is a bit of a red herring. There are laws on things that don’t hurt technically hurt people, and there are legal things that absolutely do hurt others. For instance alcohol and guns (not going down a derail to discuss gun laws). Alcohol can hurt the person themselves, their families, other people if they choose to drive etc. etc. Do I think it should be illegal, absolutely not. So I don’t think that should always be the standard for deciding laws and which to decide to obey or not.
          1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:50 pm

             I’m not trying to establish a brightline or standard for how to partake in all activities or how to determine whether a law is good or not. That would be overly broad.

             There’s a really good argument that Sally overreacted to something that wasn’t hurting anyone, and I thought Mr. (Cajun2core) made an argument about establishing a brightline regarding illegality of actions that was flawed. My response was simply a way to point out that flaw.
             1. Imsostartled* April 12, 2017 at 12:59 pm

                Fair enough! :)
    2. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 12:49 pm

       That’s interesting, as I’m a definite “no” on the prostitution thing and only a “maybe” on the shoplifting. A lot of it depends on the level of risk I’d be asked to run–if you’re with a shoplifter, you run a pretty high risk, but if I’m female and my male boss tells me he’s going to get a “date,” I don’t feel likely to suffer legal consequences.
    3. (Mr.) Cajun2core* April 12, 2017 at 3:39 pm

       I think what someone said about people’s personal feelings on marijuana clouding their own judgment.

       However, I still say that a person has a right (and maybe a duty) to report a crime and should not be punished for it, no matter how minor the crime.

       My main concern here is that it seems that she is being punished for reporting a crime.

       Now, as I started to say earlier and for some reason it was not included in my post, I do agree that Sally leaving the conference and heading home was a bit much.

       However, I can also fully understand her not wanting to work for someone who (according to the OP in a later posting – according to Sally) pressured her into an illegal activity.
94. Artemesia* April 12, 2017 at 12:26 pm

    I would not transfer her and hope she quit as a result because I would not want such a mean and vicious employee in my command. How can anyone trust her if she would pull something as damaging as what she did. Yes the manager and other employee were fools to have done this on a work trip and to have let it be known to an unknown quality like this nasty piece of work. If she had only reported it to the OP, well okay. But to have called the police was outrageous.

    I would expect her to be shunned at work and the best possible outcome would be to have her resign.
    1. Scion* April 12, 2017 at 12:36 pm

       Sally did not call the police. The hotel did.
       1. brighidg* April 12, 2017 at 5:22 pm

          Several people in the hotel industry have pointed out how fishy that is and with good reason.
    2. Manders* April 12, 2017 at 12:39 pm

       Your last point is a good one. I seriously doubt that her reputation can bounce back after this, and even if OP did transfer her, it’s always going to be an uphill battle for Sally to gain the trust of her peers at this company. The best thing OP may be able to do at this point is to offer to help her make as graceful an exit as possible.
    3. AW* April 12, 2017 at 2:40 pm

       I don’t know why you would expect her to be shunned unless all of the other employees are mean and vicious people too.
       1. (Mr.) Cajun2core* April 12, 2017 at 4:16 pm

          AW, I agree with you too. As I said in my post, Sally has a right (if not even an obligation) to report crimes without getting penalized for it.
95. Arduino* April 12, 2017 at 12:30 pm

    I think a lot of people are letting their feelings about pot cloud their judgement on this.

    Look – I highly disagree with the fact that my neighbor can own an ak47 and enough rounds to chew through my house yet it is illegal in my city for me to have a chicken in my yard.

    If I were my neighbors boss and they report my chicken I can disagree all I want but I should not retaliate at work and if I could not salvage the relationship I would do the right thing and transfer them.
    1. Allison* April 12, 2017 at 12:43 pm

       “I think a lot of people are letting their feelings about pot cloud their judgement on this.”

       I see what you did there :-)
96. Imsostartled* April 12, 2017 at 12:31 pm

    For some reason I have really strong feelings about this one. I live in CA which has now legalized smoking and in ’18 will become more widespread. I however have mostly abstained due to addiction issues within my family (not trying to derail as I don’t think you are destined to become addicted, just that I personally dislike losing control due to said issues) I am 100% pro-legalization though.

    However! I think that the manager made an exceptionally large mistake. You should not be engaging in illegal activity on company time and I think the optics of saying that Sally should not have reported illegal activity are exceptionally bad. I would consider firing the manager due to the power differential in play when offering and also for the extreme lack of judgement and for disobeying company policy.

    While yes I think Sally leaving the conference was extreme, I don’t actually think that telling the company was over the top. I personally would just tell my own manager and stop there, but it’s not like she called the cops on them. The hotel did. I feel like people are letting their personal feelings about pot affect their responses here.

    So I suppose I’m like this on a scale of 1-10 in issue of severity of response:
    Hotel’s response: 10
    Sally’s response: 6-7
    Company’s response: 2
    1. Imsostartled* April 12, 2017 at 12:32 pm

       I meant to say “I don’t actually think that telling the *hotel* was over the top”.
97. Fake Eleanor* April 12, 2017 at 12:31 pm

    I’m willing to consider the events of the evening in question a wash. The manager acted … unwisely. Sally made a series of decisions that I consider extreme, but none of them were completely unjustifiable. (Leaving town was definitely weird, but if she was honestly panicked, sure, I can see it.)

    But the evening has passed, and consequences have been felt. I think it’s compassionate of the company — and laudable — to give the manager and other coworker a reprimand. Being arrested is punishment enough; no need to load on more.

    And Sally has no excuse for pursuing vengeance, rather than acting rashly. Just as the manager has to deal with consequences of a dumb decision he made, Sally needs to deal with the consequences of dumb decisions she made. I don’t see an obligation on the LW’s part to transfer Sally, and if Sally wants to quit, she can quit. (I don’t think she should be fired, either.)
98. H.C.* April 12, 2017 at 12:32 pm

    RE: Sally’s transfer request, I would try to evaluate it from a neutral standpoint (if there is an appropriate position available & if Sally’s performance thus far would’ve OK’d her for such a transfer), taking into consideration the now-strained working relationship with her manager and co-worker.

    But FWIW, I agree with most of the comments thus far that Sally overreacted to the situation (calling front desk, prematurely leaving a conference & demanding a transfer) and that may warrant a one-on-one discussion/coaching with her too.
99. Autumn* April 12, 2017 at 12:33 pm

    Whether or not you agree with the laws on pot, they are the law. Sally went to a conference, was offered an illegal substance, and apparently felt unsafe enough to alert the hotel and take a bus home. I am guessing Sally is probably pretty young and from a conservative background, and this scenario is the living essence of every anti-drug after school special. She didn’t call the cops- the hotel did. I think using illegal drugs with your underlings on a work trip is certainly a firing offence. The wink and nod attitude – “it’s just pot” – ignores the fact that not everyone thinks that way and it is still against the law in most states. Both of my brothers have served prison time for just a little pot. Whether that is right or wrong, I don’t find Sally to be in the wrong here. I think Alison missed the mark on this one.
100. Althea* April 12, 2017 at 12:34 pm

     In general I don’t agree with the advice on this one. Others have commented in this vein, but I feel like one mark has been missed – it was a manager offering Sally the joint. Haven’t we discussed many times that “offers” from managers are often not taken as offers? What if the manager had requested “voluntary” donations or asked Sally out on a date? The power dynamic inherently makes it *not* an offer and introduces pressure into the situation.

     This is in addition to it being illegal.

     I’m also mad on behalf of future customers of that hotel. I’m for legalization but don’t feel inclined to try pot myself, and I really don’t want to try out someone’s smelly secondhand smoke fumes embedded in the furniture. If I were Sally I probably would have read them the riot act (though again, manager…) and told them to knock it off in the hotel on a business trip, but I don’t think she was in the wrong for reporting to the hotel or being upset about pressure to partake.
     1. Allison* April 12, 2017 at 12:41 pm

        I do kind of agree with a point in your last paragraph. Unless they were in a smoking room, smoking -anything- was kind of a dick move.
     2. H.C.* April 12, 2017 at 1:10 pm

        I disagree with your assessment about the pressure; if there’s any, it’s orders of magnitude less than soliciting donations or asking out on dates. It’s akin to a boss offering a cigarette on a smoke break or after a shift, which is pretty much no harm, no foul if employee declines

        But as a non-smoking pro-legalization person myself, I will agree that I’ll be annoyed with embedded aromas (esp MJ, which always smell skunky to me) in a non-smoking hotel / room.
        1. H.C.* April 12, 2017 at 1:19 pm

           I’ll amend to say that there is a layer of weirdness about going to the manager’s hotel room for a smoke, but I initially dismissed it given the need for discretion considering the illegality.
101. TW* April 12, 2017 at 12:35 pm

     I live in a state where it’s legal and have kind of become desensitized to the issue as a whole. However, when we have out of town guests, family etc – I am quickly reminded of how much of a stigma there still is surrounding this drug. Call me prude but I think the manager should face disciplinary action. Sally went overboard notifying the hotel but as people have stated, the law is on her side. The manager is seen as a position of influence and offering an illegal drug to a subordinate is so inappropriate. I would even consider that inappropriate in my state of Colorado. What does the employee handbook say about illegal drugs? I would resort to that – takes the emotions and opinions out of it.
     1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:41 pm

        I think the manager did face disciplinary action, as a note.
102. Matt* April 12, 2017 at 12:35 pm

     I think the simplest way to respond to Sally’s demand for a transfer or leaving is to just say “Bye, Felicia”. The other employees crossed several lines with their behavior to be sure, but for her to have the attitude that she’s displaying is not indicative of somebody’ who’s going to be a good member of your team going forward.
103. Allison* April 12, 2017 at 12:39 pm

     Ultimately, I don’t agree with her actions, but having been a goody two-shoes growing up, I can kind of understand why she did it.

     1 – Sally’s probably been believing the anti-drug propaganda her whole life, especially that garbage they taught us in DARE. I felt the same way about weed until I was in high school and learned how harmless it actually is, and became pro-legalization. But in addition to being morally against it, she was also under the impression that anyone offering you drugs is either pressuring you, or will push you to try it if you initially decline.

     2 – Knowing that it’s illegal, and possibly having been to a college where you got in trouble if you were caught in the same room as a banned substance, she may have been worried that if the caught her in the room, she’d be arrested and get in trouble alongside her coworkers. Maybe she worried that if it came out people from the company were toking up, she would be lumped in with them, so turning them in was her way of separating herself out as the good girl who wanted nothing to do with it.
104. Professor Ronny* April 12, 2017 at 12:40 pm

     So many wrongs here. The manager showed serious lack of judgment. He needs to be fired. With such poor judgment, how could you ever trust a personnel decision (hiring, firing, annual evaluations, raises…) again?

     Sally also showed very poor judgment and a complete lack of understanding of professional norms. As others have said, I would not allow her to transfer and hope and pray she quits. If she does not, I would be looking for a way to ease her out and given this level of lack-of-judgment, that will not take long.
105. Raine* April 12, 2017 at 12:42 pm

     I’m wondering how old Sally is. I could see 21 year old me coming hot off the zero tolerance policies of college ,where one person hiding/smoking drugs in the room meant everyone who lived there could be facing academic suspension at best and legal action at worst, freaking out over being offered a joint. If you look at her actions under the lense of someone who was terrified of being arrested for being complicit in an illegal activity then they make a lot more sense. Sally sounds like an already kind of straight laced person who perhaps got dinged before for knowing someone who smoked pot, and was scrambling to get out ahead of things as fast as humanly possible. Hence the anger at the manager for putting her in that situation, and perhaps some paranoia about blackmail. I’ve had a “friend” try an pressure me into smoking when I walked in on them because if I partook I wouldn’t be able to report it without getting in trouble.
106. Juli G.* April 12, 2017 at 12:42 pm

     Disregarding pot completely…

     Fellow HR professionals, how many term situations do you have that start with “The manager invited the employee to their hotel room”?

     Bad. So bad. Do not do.
107. LadyCop* April 12, 2017 at 12:43 pm

     Overreacting??? I used to work hotel security at a very upscale hotel… when people smoke in the room, especially marijuana, they do damage to the room and cost us at least $300 everytime to deep clean….on top of the cost of taking the room out of service for the day. Ya’ll think it’s cute and funny, but you’re not in your own house, stop being Jenks!

     Now, I do live in a state that stupidly allows this for medical reasons, even though the science doesn’t support it, but if I got caught doing any kind of drugs on the job, I’d be thrown out on my ass and be an embarrassment to Law Enforcement…. not to mention a danger to other people.

     The smell is absolutely disgusting, and I’ve seen first hand the danger the influence of drugs has on people.

     Keep living in denial.
     1. KR* April 12, 2017 at 2:18 pm

        To be fair, we don’t know if the manager booked a smoking or non-smoking room, or if he had a balcony that he was smoking on. I don’t think it’s certain whether a room cleaning fee was charged. It’s obvious that law enforcement handles drug use on and off the job differently than other industries, but I don’t think someone is “living in denial” because they don’t want to sign up for that lifestyle.
108. Carolyn the Red* April 12, 2017 at 12:43 pm

     ‘Subordinate of the opposite sex, come get intoxicated with me in my hotel room’

     Sorry, even ignoring drug laws, this is not acceptable on a work trip. Add a little pressure, and I see a big problem. Come have rum in my hotel room person who never drinks, come on, you can’t know unless you try. Yeah, I might freak out if I had to ride home with the person.
109. Casuan* April 12, 2017 at 12:45 pm

     Yeesh. What a professional & legal mess.
     disclaimer: I’m not in legal of law enforcement. I think marijuana should be legalised even though I don’t use it… & I hate the odour, which has nothing to do with this topic.

     There’s something more to this than what’s on the surface. Something caused Sally to overreact & if this something was the behaviour of her colleagues then you owe it to her, all employees & to the company to determine what this was. Hopping on a bus to return home is quite extreme, unless that was their original mode of transportation?
     *nb: I am not suggesting that anything more serious than the joint-issue occurred. I am suggesting that her reaction was so extreme that, for whatever reason, her colleagues could have triggered her response.*

     Someone in management &or security needs to ascertain what occurred that night. Obtain statements from each employee. The manager’s should start from when he decided to smoke & invite his colleagues over for company. I could argue his statement should begin with the thought of why he made the decision to even bring the marijuana although he did so work from that fact.

     Now that I think of it, the statements should be from when they left for the conference, including travel. Sally’s reaction could have been from cumulative events, as opposed to simply being offered a joint. Then again, her reaction could be based on nothing except wanting to help enforce the law.

     hypothetical: What if “smoking a joint” was instead an activity that is illegal in all 50 states? Would we still think that Sally overreacted?

     Manager showed very bad judgment & that should be addressed. He should face consequences for the bad judgment of bringing an illegal substance to a work event ] & sharing it with others, especially his subordinates. There’s a power dynamic going on here & his colleagues could have felt pressured just by Manager’s offer to smoke with him. For whatever reason, at least one colleague did feel pressured.
     Has Manager done this before?

     Not-Sally-Colleague showed bad judgment as well.

     Sally… I agree with opinions that she might not have realised telling the hotel management would result in the police being called. With my previous comments, I’ll add that if for any reason this has truly traumatised her in some way, it occurred on a business trip & she should be offered access to the EAP or similar.

     All of the above said, no employee should be permitted to give ultimatums. Sally should be held accountable for her decisions just as much as her colleagues are to theirs. She shouldn’t be transferred just because she told you that the only options are that she transfers or quits.

     The exception to this is if Sally was in true distress & couldn’t think straight that night &or if she was in shock, which could have accounted for her being able to pack, book Greyhound, check out* & leave.
     hypothetical check out, pith version:
     Hotel: “Sorry to see you go. Was there a problem we can fix so you stay?”
     Sally: “No, my colleagues are smoking a joint…”

     Yeesh.
110. Letter Writer* April 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm

     Thank you for answering my question Alison. As always your advice is spot on. I appreciate all the comments as well.

     Since I sent in my letter some things have happened. Sally was not given a transfer and she was given a reprimand and sent home for a half day to make up for the unused costs of the hotel and conference. This was not my decision.

     Sally ended up seeking legal advice and the company had to do damage control because she framed it as her male boss telling her to come into his room at night and pressuring her to take a drug that is illegal and mood-altering, and was penalized for reporting it to the hotel while trying to protect the company and their decision to phone the police, and given a harsher penalty than the people who did the illegal thing and not allowed a transfer and forced to work for the boss she reported and told not to be insubordinate again. Again I was not involved in the decision to reprimand her.

     When Sally quit two people also left in protest and several others threatened to based on her treatment. The company decided to try to settle with her because a lawyer told us we really dropped the ball. I agree. I think Sally overreacted but I was upset that she received a worst penalty than her boss and colleague.

     Thanks again everyone and sorry I don’t have time to reply to everyone individually.
     1. Roscoe* April 12, 2017 at 12:50 pm

        Wait, she tried to basically imply her boss was trying to sexually assault her for offering her weed? Good riddance to her.
        1. Althea* April 12, 2017 at 1:04 pm

           It’s hard to tell from this if there were sexual overtones or not, but how appropriate would it have been for a manager to invite a subordinate to his hotel room for a drink? In our culture, doesn’t that have sexual overtones?

           And, because I really feel few people are saying this, the manager-subordinate dynamic made this inherently inappropriate due to the power dynamic in play.
           1. KG* April 12, 2017 at 1:50 pm

              Yeah, a number of comments on the last thread were about how these things almost always have sexual overtones…
           2. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 1:57 pm

              But the first time she ever mentioned this angle was after she got a lawyer involved. When she first reported it, she focused only on the pot.
              1. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 2:53 pm

                 Maybe because that was objective, and “I felt like this was prelude to pressure for a three-way–to relax! and bond as co-workers!” was subjective.

                 It’s why we suggest practicing interviews and presentations and such, after all–that sometimes the critical aspect that should have been front and center to lead off only turns up in the third attempt to explain. To the explainer it all felt obvious, but to outside ears it’s detail 6 out of 7 that changes everything.
           3. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 2:23 pm

              If it were just her, I’d agree, but the boss invited her and another coworker at the same time. If that was a sexual advance, it would be a pretty ballsy one.
              1. Margaret* April 12, 2017 at 2:52 pm

                 @LBK it doesn’t strike me as particularly implausible or even unlikely, given the prevalence of sexual harassment and assault and the things that harassers will attempt. With the general reluctance to believe victims, I wouldn’t be surprised if he assumed he could get away with it.
                 1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 2:58 pm

                    I don’t disagree that people often dismiss that kind of accusation out of hand, but just because she perceived it that way also doesn’t mean that’s what it was.
                    1. Margaret* April 12, 2017 at 4:38 pm

                       There’s always a degree of perception involved in these kinds of cases. But, why should we jump to questioning the veracity of her account? Especially if the reason for skepticism is “I don’t think harassment would happen with someone else in the room.” That seems tantamount to dismissing it out of hand.
                       1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 5:10 pm

                          Everyone’s account is being questioned, not just Sally’s. I’m not saying I think there’s zero chance it was harassment because there was another person present. I think that when we’re trying to weigh whether something inappropriate was going on, I see that as a point in favor of the manager’s account that it wasn’t meant to be a sexual invitation. I’m not saying it’s conclusive evidence, I’m saying that I think it’s a factor in trying to understand the situation.
              2. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 2:56 pm

                 Oh, well. No one ever makes ballsy attempts at sexual harassment of their subordinates.
                 1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 3:07 pm

                    All I’m saying is that I don’t think it’s a stretch to think this could’ve been completely innocent, and that there’s nothing about the situation as it’s described in the letter that I think immediately raises flags that there were ulterior motives.
                    1. Aurion* April 12, 2017 at 3:12 pm

                       If it wasn’t for the number of people quitting/threatening to quit in solidarity I would think there was a decent chance that the manager simply showed poor judgement without ulterior motives.

                       That many people supporting Sally though? It’s really, really colouring my interpretation of Sally’s (ex-)manager. I admit that’s me though.
                       1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 3:21 pm

                          I don’t really know what to do with that, honestly. I get where you’re coming from, but I also think Sally’s displayed a propensity to overreaction, so I wouldn’t be surprised if she had a cohort of similarly-minded coworkers in the office who’d follow suit with her outrage about marijuana.
                       2. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 3:34 pm

                          @LBK
                          Sally must be quite the silver-tongued devil to get other people to walk away from their income and reference from a perfectly functional organization out sheer dudgeon for employing marijuana-smokers. It’s not like they’re getting part of the settlement, after all.
                       3. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 3:36 pm

                          Yeah…I guess I just don’t know how compelling I find that because people are presumably quitting based on what Sally’s telling them about the situation, so it just comes back to the same question of how reliable of a narrator she is.
                       4. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 3:37 pm

                          Whoops, didn’t think the last comment went through.
                       5. Aurion* April 12, 2017 at 3:41 pm

                          @LBK Different interpretations, I guess. I think Sally’s reaction is very well explained by the (potential) harassment angle, and the weed was just the most factual and objective part she had so she spearheaded her approach with that.

                          But either way, considering Sally seemed to have been reprimanded more harshly than her boss…yeah, the company dropped the ball so hard it’s through the floor and into hell by this point.
                       6. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 3:49 pm

                          I dunno, I think if someone who I have a close relationship with and whose judgment I otherwise trust felt so strongly about something that they quit over it, I’d have a hard time not taking their side. It wouldn’t take a lot of convincing if we already had a mutual trust and closeness.
                       7. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 3:50 pm

                          Makes sense – and I do agree that knowing now that Sally felt like she was being sexually harassed puts her reaction slightly more in perspective. But the letter does also say that she specifically reiterated her dislike of pot when talking about the situation afterwards, so at the very least that was still part of her scorn for the offer, not just that she also thought it was a proposition.
                       8. Tuxedo Cat* April 12, 2017 at 4:12 pm

                          I guess for me, it really depends on what they were told.

                          I hate saying this, but I also do find it odd that sexual harassment was brought up with a lawyer and that this is sexual harassment with a third party in the room. It’s not impossible but it would be very unusual.
                       9. Roscoe* April 12, 2017 at 4:19 pm

                          Well in my experience, all it takes is one woman to say how they felt anything sexual MAY be there, to rally an army. He may have had noulterior motives, but if she says she felt thats where it was going (again whether true or not) I could completely see a lot of her co-workers rallying to her defense based on he said/she said.

                          I’m not saying she lied, everything she said is factually true, but she did frame it in a way to specifically imply something and cast doubt on his character.
                       10. Aurion* April 12, 2017 at 4:28 pm

                           @Roscoe

                           I’ve seen a lot more “you must’ve been mistaken” than “rally an army” about sexual harassment complaints, so I personally doubt that Sally intentionally used this framing to make her boss look even worse. Regardless, everything she said was factually true. I mention this part only because I think it explains the extremity of Sally’s reaction, but Sally’s ex-boss and her ex-company was already screwed with or without that piece.
                    2. Margaret* April 12, 2017 at 4:49 pm

                       @LBK it’s also not a stretch to think that what she’s saying is true. The situation as it’s described in the letter is, as Maria Bamford would say, a flag factory. More importantly: why are we even looking for reasons to shed doubt on her story to begin with?
                       1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 4:58 pm

                          I’m not looking for reasons to shed doubt on her story, I’m just trying to parse the situation based on what we know. I understand that there’s a long history of women’s reports of harassment being casually dismissed, but I don’t think the reverse approach of treating every account of harassment as unimpeachable is right either.
              3. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 3:04 pm

                 That very much depends on what the boss’s relation with the other co-worker was like.
           4. Roscoe* April 12, 2017 at 4:21 pm

              Well, it depends. I mean I could also see people being upset if he and the other male (was it for sure a male?) colleague went to managers room for a drink and the one woman wasn’t invited. Then people would say that its encouraging a good old boys club
        2. Margaret* April 12, 2017 at 2:44 pm

           So, you’re accusing her of lying about what she perceived to be inappropriate advances from her boss? On what grounds? Her claims should be taken seriously, and she certainly should not be condemned for making such claims.
           1. WPH* April 12, 2017 at 3:12 pm

              Yeah I agree. She framed it that because that is what happened. Her boss did invite her into his room at night to partake in a mood altering substance. Those are facts, not framing. One could debate whether she was penalized more harshly. I could see penalizing her for leaving the conference but not for informing the hotel or the hotel’s follow up action of calling the police.

              This company totally dropped the ball and is getting off easy.
     2. Juli G.* April 12, 2017 at 12:51 pm

        Yeah, your company probably couldn’t have handled it worse. Sorry that you had to deal with a mess outside your control.
        1. blackcat* April 12, 2017 at 1:04 pm

           Oof, yeah. And 90% of the comments above that are in agreement that Sally overreacting didn’t suggest penalizing Sally–just only doing the transfer if it was otherwise convenient. And lots of folks (like me!) who think Sally’s behavior was uncool think that her boss was really out of line and deserved punishment.

           I am unsurprised that lawyers got involved, given how your company handled it…
     3. Aurion* April 12, 2017 at 12:51 pm

        …wow, your company really, really dropped the ball on this one. Honestly I think Sally should’ve gotten the transfer to get some distance with her boss.
     4. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 12:52 pm

        Wow. What a mess, I’m sorry all this went down. Thanks so much for the update, Letter Writer!
     5. Jessi* April 12, 2017 at 12:55 pm

        Wow. Yeah the company really dropped the ball on that one.

        And of othe colleagues were willing to quit in protest then I think the concerns over Sally’s reputation at the company were overreactions. People were obviously on her side and there might have been more going on in this situation then the OP knew.
        1. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 2:59 pm

           Yes, multiple colleagues quitting in sympathy really suggests a lot more to the Sally-manager dynamic that upper management completely missed.
     6. fposte* April 12, 2017 at 12:56 pm

        Thanks for weighing in, Letter Writer; it’s definitely a difficult situation, and it sounds like it elicited a lot of different opinions in the company as it did here.
     7. Kapers* April 12, 2017 at 12:59 pm

        I replied before I saw this update, but I have to say it’s VERY easy to see this situation exactly how Sally “framed” it especially given that she got in trouble for it.
        1. Althea* April 12, 2017 at 1:02 pm

           Excuse me! No “framing” was required! An offer from a manager to a subordinate is inherently pressure and inappropriate.
           1. Kapers* April 12, 2017 at 1:10 pm

              I agree- “framed” was in quotes because it was the letter writer’s wording.
              1. Naruto* April 12, 2017 at 3:13 pm

                 Right! Several of us here in the thread see it this way. And if you get her in trouble, and she hires a lawyer, well, it’s predictable that she would frame it this way. I don’t think the LW did anything wrong here necessarily, but the company really dropped the ball in their response.
        2. Expat* April 12, 2017 at 1:08 pm

           Yeah… honestly I didn’t even think of this angle. But I can imagine how Sally may have seen it this way.
        3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 2:05 pm

           Characterizing it as being “pressured to come into someone’s room at night and take a mood-altering substance” is about the most melodramatic framing possible while still remaining technically – very technically – factual.
           1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 2:24 pm

              Agreed.
           2. Whats In A Name* April 12, 2017 at 3:09 pm

              Agree…but also, LW writes and told not to be insubordinate again…which read to me like her first instance of insubordination was not smoking the pot? WT actual F?
              1. Aurion* April 12, 2017 at 3:15 pm

                 I hope that’s referring to Sally’s demand that her boss be fired (or she gets a transfer), but if it’s regarding the pot…yowch.
                 1. Whats In A Name* April 12, 2017 at 3:24 pm

                    Yes! Me too! I am hoping it’s something else and I am missing something big.
                    1. gwal* April 12, 2017 at 4:02 pm

                       wasn’t ‘leaving the conference earlier than planned without notice to the employer’ an instance of insubordination?
           3. Roscoe* April 12, 2017 at 4:24 pm

              Exactly. Its like, no you aren’t lying, but you are heavily implying something with no proof. Hell, wine is a mood altering substance.
     8. Althea* April 12, 2017 at 12:59 pm

        Thanks for the update. To be honest, I’m glad Sally got a settlement, because I agree that the manager was completely out of line making the offer to Sally. The company was out of line not to recognize that manager’s offers inherently create pressure on underlings.
     9. Temperance* April 12, 2017 at 1:03 pm

        I really think Sally overreacted (especially with the “illegal and mood-altering” phrasing), but yikes.
     10. AD* April 12, 2017 at 1:07 pm

         So the manager received no consequences at all?? That’s surprising and disappointing.
         1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 2:06 pm

            Agreed. The manager should have been fired.
     11. paul* April 12, 2017 at 1:09 pm

         Sounds like an epic cluster all the way around. Hope y’all can clean up the mess and implement some policies and procedures to help avoid similar disasters.

         The fact that other people felt strongly enough about this to quit makes me wonder what else was going on. I know rumor mills can be a mess, but most folks are reluctant to just up and leave. Let alone having two people gone. Was the manager a problem in other ways? Was Sally particularly popular/productive at work?
         1. GreatLakesGal* April 12, 2017 at 1:30 pm

            This x 1000. I’ve had colleagues let go in ways I found unfair. But.

            It takes a LOT for people to leave their jobs.

            I’m starting to smell something rotten in the culture of OP’s workplace.
         2. Aurion* April 12, 2017 at 1:52 pm

            Yeah, I’m raising eyebrows here. Given that two people quit in solidarity with Sally and several others threatened to do the same…I feel like the manager might’ve done more than just an upfront offer.
     12. Meghan* April 12, 2017 at 1:10 pm

         I’m glad she got a settlement. The company completely mismanaged this situation.
         1. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 1:46 pm

            She got a settlement because she implied the boss tried to make advances against her. Not ok.
            1. KG* April 12, 2017 at 1:53 pm

               Do we have any reason to believe he wasn’t?
               1. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 2:01 pm

                  The first time she mentioned that possibility was after she got a lawyer involved, not when she first reported it to the company. If she was that concerned, why didn’t she raise it at the same time she handed over a picture?
                  1. Aurion* April 12, 2017 at 2:07 pm

                     Per the letter, Sally felt pushed and pressured by the manager’s offer. Many commentors assumed that it was a simple, upfront offer, but given two people walked with Sally and several other threatened to, I feel like the manager’s actions were not as on the level as the original letter may have implied.
                  2. Sualah* April 12, 2017 at 2:10 pm

                     Sally said she was pressured to partake–that has been consistent the whole time. Just because she didn’t mention the other part right off the bat doesn’t mean it wasn’t there. Maybe she’s lying about it, but it fits with the whole situation including the manager’s complete lack of judgment.
                     1. Juli G.* April 12, 2017 at 2:17 pm

                        I think what got the settlement is reporting illegal activity and then being punished for it. The hotel room angle might be good relish but retaliation was the real concern.
                        1. ReneeB* April 12, 2017 at 3:01 pm

                           Agreed.

                           Sally had a good lawyer. Not only did the attorney have the company on the retaliation angle, but also had them on the potential sexual harassment angle

                           There’s no way to defend against the second without implying that you’re also defending against the first. And they had no defense against the first.

                           Brilliant actually.

                           And who cares whether it’s ‘true’ or not that the supervisor was trying to sexually proposition her. That doesn’t make the fact the company both retaliated against her and refused to discipline the manager any less true.

                           Right on, Sally.
                  3. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 2:32 pm

                     Because she works somewhere that doesn’t take sexual harassment at all seriously, and thought (incorrectly) that pushing the “OMG illegal drugs” angle would get her more sympathy from the company?

                     The multiple resignations puts me on the side of “something stinks, badly, at this company” as well.

                     (Sorry OP, you seem okay!)
                  4. Electric Hedgehog* April 12, 2017 at 2:33 pm

                     Isn’t this essentially the same argument lots of people make when attempting to delegitimize the accusations of potential sexual assault victims? Just sayin’…
                     1. Nobody Here By That Name* April 12, 2017 at 2:45 pm

                        Seriously. Had Sally been assaulted the first thing that would’ve happened would be people saying that she went into a manager’s hotel room where drugs were being done: what did she expect?

                        Also? Given that we all feel Sally had a strong overreaction to being offered a single joint, to me this new information that multiple people quit in solidarity with her suggests even more that we’re not getting the full story of what went on in that room. Not saying it automatically means sexual assault or harassment, but this level of escalation from multiple people who aren’t Sally (the hotel who called the cops, the cops who made arrests, the coworkers who quit) really does not sound like a matter of a single joint and a dumb offer.
                        1. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 3:01 pm

                           And furthermore, while some people are dismissing at “framing”, I think we (myself included) got so distracted by debating The War On Some Drugs that we forgot that Sally’s male supervisor invited her to his room, at night, and invited her to get inebriated with him. That’s not “technically accurate”, that’s exactly what happened.

                           If Sally had fled in a panic attack after her supervisor invited her back to his room for Jager shots, and later asked to be transferred out of his department, would we all be so quick to judge her as a moralizing harridan out to ruin her co-workers’ lives for no good reason?
                        2. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 3:08 pm

                           @ Creag an Tuire – Yeah, I think the weed is actually besides the point for a lot of aspects of this situation.
                        3. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 3:09 pm

                           That’s an excellent point–three sets of people who are not Sally escalated in ways that seem very odd from outside. Which suggests that there is a lot more context to Chad the Manager that is missing from the original letter, and from OP’s initial read of the situation.
                        4. paul* April 12, 2017 at 3:13 pm

                           That’s exactly my first thought. I mean…there’s a lot here that’s at least strongly hinting at real dysfunction.
                        5. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 3:27 pm

                           @ Falling Diphthong
                           It’s also pretty telling that the OP, who seems like a perfectly reasonable person, was for some reason looped out of the decision to reprimand and financially penalize(!) Sally, who is one of her reports.
                     2. HannahS* April 12, 2017 at 3:14 pm

                        Yeah. I’m pretty appalled at how many people are discrediting that Sally was legitimately being harassed. It’s like people are letting the fact that it was weed instead of alcohol erase the fact that this situation sounds AWFULLY RED FLAG-Y.
                        1. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 3:41 pm

                           I’m pretty sure if there were any more Red Flags in this situation it would be mistaken for a Soviet military parade.
                  5. Nobody Here By That Name* April 12, 2017 at 2:40 pm

                     I’d clarify that’s the first time we’ve HEARD about her mentioning the possibility, thanks to getting all of this from the LW’s POV and not Sally’s. And even without that, it’s not as though those statements contradict what we were told before.
               2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 2:06 pm

                  It’s not reasonable to conclude that he was, given what we know from the LW.
                  1. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 3:10 pm

                     We try to give LWs the benefit of the doubt, but the LW didn’t really say anything along the lines of “this is absolutely not true.” Given that multiple people walked and that that is what Sally said, I don’t think that it’s outrageous to consider it.
                     1. Kyrielle* April 12, 2017 at 5:25 pm

                        It’s also very possible to wonder about this and still give the LW the benefit of the doubt. The LW wasn’t there, and may or may not know everything that the various other people involved do.
            2. paul* April 12, 2017 at 2:04 pm

               The fact that other people quit over this makes me wonder if that has more merit than I’d have initially assumed though. Maybe the manager had a history of bad behaviors?

               I mean, I know rumor mills can be off, but having multiple people quit over this is very suspicious too.
               1. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 2:38 pm

                  I do agree with this.
            3. Meghan* April 12, 2017 at 2:21 pm

               I think she got a settlement because she was reprimanded in a stronger way than the people who were partaking in an illegal activity for reporting said illegal activity.
     13. Czhorat* April 12, 2017 at 1:17 pm

         I honestly think you’re best off without her; her behaviour was terrible, as was her manager’s.

         Really, this is one of those cases in which exactly nobody walks away looking good.
     14. Discordia Angel Jones* April 12, 2017 at 1:17 pm

         Didn’t see this when I commented.

         Yeesh, your company mishandled it badly. Very badly.

         Not surprised she sued and if I were your lawyer I would have advised your company to settle also.
         1. paul* April 12, 2017 at 1:26 pm

            I’m hearing Buffalo Springfield’s “For What It’s Worth” playing in my head over this post and the update.
     15. Not a paralegal* April 12, 2017 at 1:18 pm

         Just. Wow. The actions of your firm, the manager (not you OP), and Sally are bizarrely similar in how out there they are. Sorry to hear how this turned out.
     16. my name is Rory* April 12, 2017 at 1:21 pm

         Alison, is there any way to somehow move this to the top of the comments or put a link there so everyone sees what Letter Writer posted?
         1. AYN* April 12, 2017 at 2:42 pm

            +1
         2. Casuan* April 12, 2017 at 2:44 pm

            parallel to this: I’ve often wished for an easier way to identify the OPs in the comments, although I suspect this requires micro-moderation that doesn’t make this viable.
     17. LawCat* April 12, 2017 at 1:24 pm

         Agree on the company dropping the ball here. Thanks for the update!
     18. A mouse who is Anon* April 12, 2017 at 1:33 pm

         Thank you for the update!
     19. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 1:45 pm

         Wow. Does everyone in your company have terrible judgment (except you)?

         Reprimanding her was a really unwise decision. Really, really unwise. Which of course you know.

         And Sally sounds just awful with this: “she framed it as her male boss telling her to come into his room at night and pressuring her to take a drug that is illegal and mood-altering.”
         1. Ennigaldi* April 12, 2017 at 2:04 pm

            I have a really hard time calling someone “awful” who was sketched out by a manager inviting them over at night and offering them pot. Considering how fast she got out of there, it’s worth considering that she was GENUINELY freaked out. There’s no reason to insinuate she’s being duplicitous here, and the fact that two other people walked with her? I’m betting this is an office with a “just brush it off” culture and that manager was making other people uncomfortable for a while.
            1. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 3:04 pm

               Yeah, I’d be pretty sketched out by that, too.
            2. Katie the Fed* April 12, 2017 at 3:15 pm

               This is a good point. I’m reconsidering my initial reaction.
            3. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 5:26 pm

               If my daughter called me freaked out because her team leader called her to his hotel room at night after a conference and pressured her to smoke a joint with him and one other person, I would not be saying “Well honey you need to chill, no man with power has ever meant anything bad by that.”
         2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 2:10 pm

            Agreed on both counts.
         3. Naruto* April 12, 2017 at 3:28 pm

            It sounds to me like that’s 100% exactly what happened, though!
     20. Sualah* April 12, 2017 at 2:02 pm

         Sally was told not to be insubordinate. Wow. Good on her for getting that settlement.
         1. bluephone* April 12, 2017 at 2:12 pm

            The fact that other people quit because of what happened to Sally speaks volumes about the office culture. It’s less “Ugh, that Sally! What a buzzkill!” and more “Wow, these Chads are heck-bent on being the Chaddest Chads who ever Chadded. We might as well leave too before we’re pushed out for refusing to help our manager bury a body or something.”
         2. Whats In A Name* April 12, 2017 at 3:15 pm

            Not only was she told not be insubordinate…she was told not to be insubordinate again. I already asked this up thread but the again is really getting to me. Is LW insinuating the first time she was insubordinate was when she refused the joint?

            Or when she left the conference on a bus? Or when she requested the transfer? Or when she tried to petition her case to boss?
            1. Whats In A Name* April 12, 2017 at 3:15 pm

               oops. bold was supposed to end after 2nd again.
     21. Mustache Cat* April 12, 2017 at 2:21 pm

         My goodness, what on earth?

         If you ever have another update on this situation that you’d feel comfortable passing on, I’d be so interested in hearing it. The fact that so many coworkers quit or threatened to quit over this indicates to me that there is probably a lot of context that we’re missing.
         1. paul* April 12, 2017 at 3:41 pm

            yeah. I intially thought this was a simple case of a manager being dumb paired with a drama queen but…damn this smells fishy
         2. brighidg* April 12, 2017 at 5:27 pm

            Or it could be Sally being a drama llama + Sally being reprimanded while the manager wasn’t. People hear Sally’s warped version and see that and decided to jump ship.
     22. Detective Amy Santiago* April 12, 2017 at 2:22 pm

         Wow… thanks for the update LW. I can’t say I fault Sally for being upset if she was given a harsher punishment than the colleagues who actually broke the law.

         I’m sorry you got stuck in the middle of this and it sounds like there was a lot of poor judgment from everyone involved (except you). Was there any further discipline for the manager and colleague?
     23. Nobody Here By That Name* April 12, 2017 at 2:50 pm

         Wow did your company drop the ball on this one. Hopefully this sparks a bit of soul searching on their part and how they handle issues like this. If the manager is still there, though, odds are not good.
     24. Lablizard* April 12, 2017 at 2:56 pm

         Wow. Your company went out of its way to make a bad situation worse. I an sorry you were and are surrounded by so much bad judgement.
     25. Notlisa* April 12, 2017 at 3:01 pm

         Wow, this company is NUTS. Good thing the lawyer set them straight.
     26. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 3:02 pm

         Holy shit.

         Thanks for the update.
     27. IsobelDeBrujah* April 12, 2017 at 3:20 pm

         “Sally framed it as,” her feeling unsafe and the company siding with the people who made her feel unsafe. She framed it that way because that is literally what happened.
         1. Whats In A Name* April 12, 2017 at 3:25 pm

            Yes, considering she got punished worse than they did I’m going to say you are making the right call her.
     28. Umvue* April 12, 2017 at 5:07 pm

         I was so surprised that more people didn’t see this angle of the problem. I am 0% surprised that Sally was able to frame this as retaliation and that this then turned into a giant legal headache for your company. I am surprised that Allison didn’t strongly recommend you transfer the employee just to avoid this problem, and *then* wait for her to quit for some other reason.
     29. Allie* April 12, 2017 at 5:14 pm

         Yeah, reprimanding her was a baaaaaad idea. Could have denied her transfer but taking action against her? Nope. The fact that others quit makes me think you really need to keep an eye on that manager. I wonder if what I initially perceived as an overreaction has to do with the manager’s history.
     30. brighidg* April 12, 2017 at 5:24 pm

         You work with a lot of dumb folks. I’d consider a new job for your own sake.

         Since Sally seems to like to stretch the truth, I wonder what version of the truth her co-workers have heard.
111. overcaffeinatedandqueer* April 12, 2017 at 12:50 pm

     I can’t believe she got her coworkers arrested! I’m a lawyer, so I understand the law and that it needs to be followed. But, I’ve done previous work and pro bono with helping people with low-level drug charges and other misdemeanors get their records expunged. Getting the record cleared is a matter of survival; some clients are literally homeless and starving since ONE drug charge means no one will hire them, it’s nearly impossible to fund or get higher ed or immigrate, no one will rent to them, and they’re ineligible for public benefits. This means that recidivism and suicide are huge issues.

     So in my view, Sally didn’t just report them; she’s condemning them to likely never be able to work or live anywhere else than they do now, and to have literally nothing if they lose their jobs they have. This is why I’m so glad my state has a “ban the box” law. Even so, knowing how severe the consequences of any criminal record is, I am inclined not to report any nonviolent crime, except maybe a break-in with a large theft and property damage.

     I just don’t think one joint should condemn people to job lock, very long-term or permanent unemployment, and very possibly homelessness. I mean, I’ve done equally illegal things, like speeding or not paying for public transit fare when I was too broke to afford a pass, or running to catch the train with no time to swipe said pass. That shouldn’t condemn me forever.
     1. Mike C.* April 12, 2017 at 1:02 pm

        This exactly. Sally needs to be fired.
        1. Juli G.* April 12, 2017 at 1:37 pm

           Except even a mediocre lawyer could frame that as retaliatory behavior for reporting illegal behavior.
           1. overcaffeinatedandqueer* April 12, 2017 at 1:48 pm

              Right, and for that reason I wouldn’t fire her, but I would either transfer her or find another reason to let her go, and if she were to continue working for me, talk to her about how severe the life consequences of any criminal record are. Hopefully, even someone who thinks that what the manager did was an awful mistake wouldn’t think that he deserves to lose all access to work advancement and to likely never be able to get another job or rent another apartment/home, or get public benefits, and thus risk homelessness and extreme poverty.

              A crime is a crime, but one crime does not merit decades of society-wide, systemic punishment. I would want Sally to know that that’s what she did to the manager and coworkers.
              1. Juli G.* April 12, 2017 at 2:12 pm

                 No, I hear you. It was more a comment to Mike C.
              2. Construction Safety* April 12, 2017 at 2:46 pm

                 But, and it’s a big but, Sally didn’t call the cops, the hotel did.

                 Perhaps she hadn’t thought it through, but the subsequent outrage that they weren’t fired makes me think she was out for more than a pound of flesh.
        2. paul* April 12, 2017 at 3:14 pm

           The update upthread makes me question that. If multiple people third parties quit over this because they backed Sally…I’m strongly inclined to think there was something else going on with the manager too.
     2. K.* April 12, 2017 at 1:18 pm

        Amen.
112. Tempest* April 12, 2017 at 12:52 pm

     Wow. I mean, I don’t like pot. Great for people who can smoke it recreationally and leave it there but for several people I know, it took over their lives and they couldn’t function without a toke or two first. However, grown ups can do their own risk analysis and decide if they want to smoke it as it’s their life. I fully support the right of adults to make that choice and don’t think people should be going to prison over it.

     You have two issues here though OP. One, you have a manager with such poor judgement he went on a work trip with two colleagues and not only decided to do drugs in a state where they are illegal, he also offered it to subordinates without knowing they were pot indulgers/supporters. And then smoked it in the hotel room because going by norms where I live right now, all hotel rooms are designated non-smoking, so the hotel was bound to be upset by people smoking anything in their rooms unless you do still have the ability to book a smoking room in your area. I’d expect a manager to abstain from recreational drugs until he was back on his own time/own house.

     Then you have a member of staff who is so prone to over reacting that she tattled to the hotel rather than just telling the manager she wasn’t interested in what he was offering and didn’t think it should be occurring on a work trip in the first place, got her work colleagues arrested for something fairly trivial in the grand scheme of things, and then, intending or knowing her colleagues were going to get in trouble with the police, didn’t even stick around to finish the conference. Sally is a grown up. Sally should have been able to tell her colleagues she was unimpressed with the drug use, wasn’t a drug user and excused herself from the situation. If she then wanted to tell the manager’s manager what happened after the conference, it would be up to the company to sanction the manager however they saw fit. However, in Sally’s defense, due to the power dynamic here, being offered drugs by your manager when your only other colleague on site has already decided to partake could feel pretty pressurized as you are the ‘odd one out’ or being pushed out of the clique when you say no. Here she is anti-drug and her only choices are out herself as strongly opposed to her clearly pot supporting manager and accept the consequences of this as long as this person is her manager, or let herself down and seem to support their drug use by staying in the room and being exposed second hand to something she is against.

     I would seriously be thinking about all three’s suitability to remain employed. The manager and Sally certainly showed very questionable judgement with their choices on this conference. I suppose the case could be made that Sally’s peer was offered the pot by their boss and saw nothing wrong with partaking, thinking if boss was ok with it, nothing would come of it, but taking drugs on a work trip is still dubious judgement at best. Then you have Sally, who sounds like she didn’t even try to just extract herself from the situation, or return to the safety of her own room so she could finish the conference the following day. She had to involve the authorities and flee the city, presumably leaving the company unrepresented if the other two were still dealing with the legalities of their decision.

     I don’t envy you this one to deal with OP!
113. Kapers* April 12, 2017 at 12:54 pm

     The more I think about this, really making the effort not to let my feelings about pot cloud my jugdement (ha), the more I hate the manager’s actions here.

     That was really dumb and slightly sleazy, to offer an illegal substance to employees, especially whose feelings about such substance are not known. An “offer” from your boss at a work function is almost never neutral. A coffee, a drink, a puff, a kiss, a work or personal favor– power differential dictates response here.

     I don’t agree we need to know more about the type of “pressure” Sally felt. The pressure is inherent in the dynamic. I can’t overlook the power imbalance just because I personally like pot and I’m not a snitch. As much as a lot of us would take up that offer in Sally’s position, she should not have been in that position. I hope they do right by her if she’s worth retaining.
114. S-Mart* April 12, 2017 at 12:58 pm

     I wouldn’t have taken things as far as Sally did – I probably wouldn’t have reported them to the hotel, but it would have crossed my mind. The only thing I think was overreaction on Sally’s part was the timing of the bus trip home. It sounds like they had separate rooms at the hotel. She could have gone back to her room, gone to the conference the next day, and taken the bus home after the conference was over.

     I think maybe Sally handled the conversation with her employer less than perfectly (depends on how exactly the OP-paraphrased conversations actually went), but I also wouldn’t have wanted to work with the manager anymore. How does this situation not have ramifications down the line? I wouldn’t phrase it ‘transfer me or I quit’, but I would let my boss know that my leaving over this was one of my possibilities.

     I do think pot use should be decriminalized, but I won’t fault someone for reporting their violation. If people want to break any given laws (pot use in this case), the consequences/fault for being found out are on them, not on the reporters/witnesses. I agree with breaking laws one deems unfair/unjust; I do not agree with anger directed toward the people witnessing and reporting when they don’t agree.
115. Mike C.* April 12, 2017 at 1:01 pm

     Here’s a transfer for Sally – to the unemployment line.

     Yeah, I just wrote that.
116. mccoma* April 12, 2017 at 1:07 pm

     Sally isn’t overreacting. Some people have watched what drugs do to the person and the people around them, and then to have someone in a professional setting offer it. If you’ve survived that then escaped in the professional world and some damn fool brings it all back when they know they shouldn’t, then yeah I can see the reaction.
     1. Manders* April 12, 2017 at 1:13 pm

        Well, a lot of people have had terrible experienced with alcohol, but there are still plenty of work functions where wine or even liquor is served. I’m sure Sally felt genuine distress in the moment, but she also caused a lot of distress to people around her and now OP has to deal with the mess.
        1. mccoma* April 12, 2017 at 2:53 pm

           Liquor is legal. MJ is illegal in most states and federally. In the coming years, that might change, but I doubt there will be a MJ table at corporate gatherings anytime soon.
           1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 3:23 pm

              So is the issue that drugs ruin lives, or that drugs are illegal? You’re changing the argument here.
     2. Mike C.* April 12, 2017 at 2:16 pm

        So that justifies ruining the lives of your coworkers? I’m not sure how that works.
        1. mccoma* April 12, 2017 at 2:54 pm

           They did it to themselves and got caught. The cool kids should have obeyed the rules.
     3. Allie* April 12, 2017 at 5:17 pm

        I know pot was bad for some people, but for my grandmother it was the only thing that allowed her to eat in her last year of life. Far more lives are ruined by prescription opiods, which are legal.
117. Hannah* April 12, 2017 at 1:12 pm

     I feel like part of this question is “Should we hold Sally’s reaction, which we consider irrational, against her?”

     While Sally’s reaction may have been over-the-top in taking it to the police, I don’t think she actually did anything “wrong.” She witnessed a crime happening, and reported it to the authorities. Whether or not you agree with the law needs to be irrelevant here. What if the manager had offered her a prostitute because he was ordering one for himself? Would you feel that it would have been over the top to call the police? Probably not (although there are plenty of people who think that prostitution should be legal and regulated). Punishing Sally for reporting a crime (by telling her she is out of line/her reaction was over the top/refusing to transfer her if I transfer is possible) while not punishing those who were committing the crime doesn’t seem like a good idea. That you disagree with the law can’t be the reason.

     I think that treating this neutrally is the way to go–you aren’t required to fire the pot smokers, because you’re not required to fire people just because they got arrested for a crime, but transferring her seems like the way to go if it is possible as a way to say “we hear that you are uncomfortable and this is what we can do to fix that.” These actions show that you aren’t judging on either side.
     1. Mike C.* April 12, 2017 at 2:20 pm

        So you’d be cool with this, regardless of the law in question?
        1. Hannah* April 12, 2017 at 3:05 pm

           I’m not sure what you’re referring to–cool with what?

           Cool with someone reporting a crime? I wouldn’t say I’m “cool,” with that, I’m saying that I think it’s wrong for someone to be punished for reporting a crime. No, I wouldn’t have done it myself, and yes, I think it’s dumb that people can be arrested for smoking pot. But I think it is unreasonable to punish someone someone for believing in and following the current laws.

           Cool with the manager smoking pot and offering it to underlings? No, I’m not really cool with that either. I don’t smoke pot and I wouldn’t be comfortable in Sally’s situation either. But it sounds like the OP is kind of cool with that, and I don’t think there’s an obligation on the part of the employer to punish for it.
118. Hyperbolic Anon* April 12, 2017 at 1:13 pm

     Even if the conference was in a place where pot was legal, the manager needs to at least be reprimanded.

     Let’s go a bit further and say the conference was in Reno. The manager went to the Moonlight Bunny Ranch and hired a couple of legal prostitutes for an out date to his hotel room, then invited his reports to come party. Nothing illegal was taking place, all are consenting adults.
     1. paul* April 12, 2017 at 1:20 pm

        I’m *so* pushing for our next conference to be in Colorado now though. Lemme bring a brownie back to my room at the end of the day dangit
     2. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 1:48 pm

        What? Why? Even if this did take place in Colorado, why would the manager need to be reprimanded? Would that be the case if he were drinking alcohol? Of course not!

        And there’s a huge difference between asking your reports to take part in a sex act with you and partaking in something that’s less harmful and body-altering drug than marijuana. You can certainly debate whether he should be reprimanded on principle for breaking the law (which I disagree with, but it’s obviously a debate) but this analogy doesn’t hold up. Hyperbolic indeed.
119. Julia* April 12, 2017 at 1:13 pm

     Smoking weed in this country is illegal. End of discussion. I am against states deciding to call it “legal”. I am very against voters deciding what drugs should be allowed. I believe we have a food and drug administration for a reason. I do not hold a medal degree. I have not read all the literature. I am going to have faith in the people put in place that have such creditentles.

     It is not the same as being offered a drink. I am not weird. I am not conservative. I am not religious. I drink a small amount.

     If the other 2 colleges were male, I would have had a similar reaction as Sally. (again not telling hotel management) I would have declined and told them that lacks judgment. I would not want to drive home with them.

     While I would not have probably reported it to the hotel, I would have reported it to HR and believed that the boss should have had a very serious reprimand. I would have lost confidence in the judgment of my boss and would not want to work under him. To break the law on a work trip. To bring an illegal substance in a vehicle that I was riding in. I would no longer have trust or faith in him.

     I would also have had a negative reaction if 2 male coworkers asked me to drink in their hotel room. (Different from offering to get a drink at the hotel bar) It is not a good idea. Things happen when people have impaired judgment. It is best to never even put your self in situations.
     1. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 1:16 pm

        But it’s not the end of the discussion. Things are more nuanced than that. You have an extraordinary level of trust in your government if you really believe what you’ve written here is all there is to say, and want to ignore the reams of disagreement from medical professionals, criminal justice experts, racial disparity researchers, etc.
        1. Czhorat* April 12, 2017 at 1:25 pm

           Agreed. Not only is what is or is not legal is as much a matter of history and culture as it is of medical evidence, but drug laws are often written and enforced in a manner which disproportionately affects minorities. “It’s illegal, end of topic” does not cover it.

           This is, as I said above, a situation in which exactly nobody acted reasonably. The manager was one hundred percent wrong in offering a subordinate [or anyone, for that matter] an illegal substance.

           Sally escalated well beyond what was reasonable AND fled the scene, abandoning a day of her job.

           The company was wildly inappropriate and inconsistent in their discipline.

           It is, when all is said and done, a mess.
           1. paul* April 12, 2017 at 1:27 pm

              This may be one of the more poorly handled situations I remember seeing on this blog, as far as literally everyone making a hash of things. I feel bad for OP since it seems like he’s a middle manager caught up in it.
        2. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 1:30 pm

           That’s true but the boss had to know that not everyone agrees that it’s no big deal to do something on a work trip that can result in being arrested.
           1. KG* April 12, 2017 at 1:35 pm

              +1
     2. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 1:18 pm

        I don’t partake in marijuana at all, but I strongly disagree with your position on this (which you’re entitled to!), however think some of your analysis here is colored by some very racially targeted and archaic policies and I hope you do read some more literature about the history of marijuana policy in this country.

        Also, the FDA doesn’t regulate alcohol and likely wouldn’t regulate marijuana either. And honestly having such a strong reaction to employees drinking in their room is very far from the norm, so I think it’s worth examining why you’re reacting so strongly to something most people consider normal and fine.
        1. paul* April 12, 2017 at 1:24 pm

           The FDA regulates the labeling of some beer and wine, but there’s other federal bodies that do a lot of the regulation, and a few statutes. It’s kind of hazy for me now–it’s been a long time since I read up on this–but there’s a lot of regulation of alcohol even if the poster got the exact agency wrong.

           If federal legalization does happen (crossing fingers) I’m absolutely sure there’s going to be some regulatory body that picks up the job of regulating commercially grown and marketed marijuana.
           1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 1:37 pm

              You’re right. I think it’s the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau who handles most of the regulation. Only point was that OP isn’t right that the brightest scientific minds at the FDA have determined that classifying marijuana as a schedule one drug is the right move.
        2. Whats In A Name* April 12, 2017 at 2:46 pm

           While I agree with you on the rest of the post I think what she was saying about drinking in the room was 2 males ask a female to drink in their room with them. 2 males +1 female + too much booze can sometimes lead to bad things happening. I wouldn’t do it. I might have when I was 25, though.
     3. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 1:39 pm

        Just want to point out that the FDA has no authority to legalize marijuana even in the face of medical evidence, nor does any other executive agency — marijuana was banned specifically by the elected Congress of the United States and only Congress can un-ban it. Technically, if you’re opposed to “voters deciding what drugs should be allowed”, you’d support legalization — I’m 90% sure that left to their own devices the medical experts would conclude the drug to be harmless.

        (Although I do agree that states shouldn’t go around calling it “legal”, if only because I’m legitimately worried that some residents of the states in question will be getting a painful lesson in Federal Supremacy over the next four years.)
        1. paul* April 12, 2017 at 2:06 pm

           It’s becoming something of an issue already in some ways; the ATF had to clarify Form 4473 to make it explicit that pot is still federally illegal since there’s a lot of confusion by people in legal states.

           Yep, if you smoke pot you can’t legally buy gun–even if you’re in a legalized state.
     4. Ask a Manager* Post authorApril 12, 2017 at 1:42 pm

        Oh, and currently marijuana is regulated by the U.S. Department of Justice, which is a law enforcement agency, not one that deals with health or medicine.
120. Discordia Angel Jones* April 12, 2017 at 1:15 pm

     I live in a country that isn’t the US and weed has pretty much zero chance of being made legal in any way here (though it we have drug classifications and it’s on the “least dangerous” one). So this colours my response, as does the fact that I have never smoked it, but 99% of the people I know in my (professional) field have.

     Would I report it to the hotel? Maybe, if the smell was bothering me and my room was next to theirs. Would I insist that the hotel call the cops? NOPE! (Judging by the comments from those in the hospitality industry here, calling the cops isn’t what they’d do in this situation).

     I think the manager was an idiot and would have fired him up until the point that Sally demanded he be fired (or a transfer). I wouldn’t react well to her ultimatum.

     I think her reaction was so out of the box and inappropriate (no matter that the act was illegal, her reaction went above and beyond seeing an illegal activity that wasn’t harming people or about to harm people), it makes me wonder if there’s some part of the story on her end that we aren’t seeing.

     Is she a former addict? Has someone close to her suffered because of something to do with weed? I’d feel more lenient if this was true.

     And actually, maybe she didn’t want the police to be called, but a hotel staff member freaked out and called them. For me, there’s a chunk of story missing. Several chunks.
121. ReneeB* April 12, 2017 at 1:18 pm

     I’m a little bit concerned about something. Allison has been very clear in the past that power dynamics and structures of leadership can make it very disagreeable and sometimes nearly impossible for an employee to refuse to go along with something that an employee doesn’t want to participate in. Whether that’s everyone chipping in to buy presents for the boss (ick), or the recent gross St. Patrick’s day pinching incident.

     If that’s true for St. Patrick’s day and boss ski trips, what is different here?

     There *was* pressure exerted just by the fact the supervisor is the supervisor. Even though this is happening off-site, at a hotel. The nature of work trips like these is that the entirety of the time the work relationships prevail. One does not get to take off their “I’m your employee” hat and the supervisor does not get to take of their “I’m the supervisor” hat for pretty much the entire trip. Yes, standards are relaxed and sometimes mixed hierarchies of staff and supervisors go to the hotel bars and get sloshed. But it’s poor form and makes for an extremely awkward Monday back at the office. Even in that situation, the presumption is that illegal propositions are not being made.

     The supervisor was her supervisor. On a work trip. Paid for by the employer. If he’d propositioned her for other illegal activities that are consensual between adults, the power dynamic would be grossly clear. Even if he did so in a relaxed take-it-or-leave-it manner. This is not materially different.

     For the record, I am pro-legalization and I *do not* believe adults should be jailed for pot. Or any other consensual adult activity. But I *am* bothered by skipping over the power dynamic here.
     1. Kapers* April 12, 2017 at 1:25 pm

        That’s where I surprised myself by landing on this, too. It’s even worse at a hotel, where as a male boss you’d want to be especially mindful of propriety.
     2. Czhorat* April 12, 2017 at 1:29 pm

        It depends on the tone of “offering”. Legality aside, “would you like to share this with me?” in the context of offering it to other coworkers is not, in and of itself, coercive. Had it been a glass of wine, nobody would think twice at one offer and one rejection of said offer.

        Had the boss asked again after Sally declined or otherwise pushed it, the story would be different. And again, as it stands marijuana IS an illegal substance, and there really is no excuse for offering it in a professional context.
        1. ReneeB* April 12, 2017 at 2:12 pm

           I agree about a glass of wine, and that is generally how pot is handled these days. It’s gross and juvenile to pressure anyone into drinking, especially in a work situation.

           The problem is that a glass of wine isn’t illegal. That’s where I think the analogy fails. While there are power dynamics at play when a boss offers alcohol and an employee declines, the boss is not offering something inherently illegal.

           At the end of the day, her supervisor invited her participation in an illegal activity. One that she may have felt uncomfortable turning down, for legitimate reasons having to do with the power dynamics of the supervisor/employee relationship.

           She may have been uncomfortable saying “no” to her supervisor on a work trip. And uncomfortable feeling the unspoken pressure to be cool and keep the whole thing quiet (generally the understanding is one doesn’t have to partake but they should ‘be cool’ and not say anything). Both may have felt gross and objectionable to her. That is understandable. And being put in that position is unacceptable. This may be the source of her ire.

           Every employee, male or female, should have a reasonable expectation *not* to be propositioned by their boss to engage in illegal behavior, and *not* to have the unspoken expectation to keep it all quiet afterward. Whether that’s shoplifting, or speeding, or fraud, or prostitution, or murder. Yes that is an ascending moral staircase where murder is not shoplifiting. But nothing on that ascending staircase is acceptable for a supervisor to invite his employee into his room to engage in.

           If we think about this as closer to the ‘shoplifting’ end of the spectrum than the ‘murder’ end of the spectrum, which is justifiable, does her reaction seem wildly out of line? Sure. But it misses the point that she never should be been put in the position in the first place.
     3. AD* April 12, 2017 at 2:18 pm

        what is different here?

        The difference here is that the story revolves around pot use, and people’s feelings about pot tend to strongly color their response. Which is why the manager’s actions (whether you’re pro-legalization or not) are getting pretty short shrift on this page.
     4. AYN* April 12, 2017 at 2:45 pm

        This!!! Yes!
     5. Notlisa* April 12, 2017 at 2:51 pm

        You are right, there is a disconnect between how this is being treated and other issues of inappropriate action by a supervisor in the past. People can’t see past their own views on pot and Sally’s overreaction. The supervisor obviously should have been fired for epically bad judgement but that’s definitely gotten lost in all the noise about pot laws.
     6. brighidg* April 12, 2017 at 4:27 pm

        If Sally’s boss and ALL her co-workers spent a day harassing her to smoke a joint the same way the other LW was harassed about St. Patrick’s Day, the comparison might work.

        But she wasn’t so it doesn’t.
        1. Gene* April 12, 2017 at 5:06 pm

           Sally, “stated she was angry and upset at having an illegal drug pushed at her and pressured to use it.” Since we need to take the OP – and by extension Sally – at face value here, she felt pressured. Whether it was a joint or a glass of wine, it doesn’t matter. Her supervisor, and possibly her coworker, are at fault here. There should be some sort of reprimand here. In my case, I would likely have a written reprimand at a minimum because when I’m at a conference on the City’s dime, I’m held to the same standards I am when I’m in my office or in a City vehicle.

           It appears Sally overreacted. If it was a no smoking room or hotel, I would let the front desk know I smelled it in the hall and let it go at that. But in a state where it’s illegal (I’m in WA), I’d refuse to ride back with them without personally searching their luggage and persons for any more dope or paraphernalia and trashing same. I’ve been in jail and have no desire to go there again.
     7. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 5:16 pm

        I think this is a really good point. And the follow up (from “Letter Writer”) makes it even more likely that there is something really toxic in the power dynamics under that manager, beyond this one incident. (With the employee’s extreme reaction being in the context of that larger bad dynamic, not out of the blue.)
122. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 1:28 pm

     Re-reading the post, I’m coming down more on the anti-Sally side, but possibly for a different reason than everyone else or AAM:

     Sally stated her objections to the fact they were not fired and reiterated her dislike of marijuana. She has put in for a transfer and stated if she is not given one, she will quit.

     That sounds like Sally is engaging in a personal moral crusade, and that needs to be shut down. And per the site rules I take OP at his/her word that this is what’s going on, though if I were in OP’s position I would make very sure that that was the case, because I could easily see the same events* playing out in a scenario where Sally is slightly naive about how drug laws work and panicked out of pants-browning terror for her… I hesitate to say “personal safety” since it implies physical threat, but at the same time I think it applies for someone afraid they’re about to be on the wrong side of the law. Especially this law. And Scared Sally would merit a lot more sympathy.

     And on that note, I agree with AAM that the supervisor deserves a very serious conversation, though I would add that s/he specifically needs to understand that There Is No Such Thing As “No Pressure” when you are someone’s manager. Full stop.

     * Except I do find myself wondering how she got a photo without the co-workers knowing about it — and if they did know about it (i.e. Sally purposely “set them up”) she’s probably irreparably damaged her trust with those co-workers…

     The only person I feel really sorry for is the peer-level coworker who got caught up in this.
     1. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 1:47 pm

        It’s not that weird to assume that co workers who get arrested while at a work function won’t be coming back to the office.
     2. Whats In A Name* April 12, 2017 at 2:38 pm

        Yes, but in that case OP says I agree it was inappropriate, but I think Sally is overreacting. I disagree with the marijuana laws in this state and believe in legalization. I partake myself occasionally. So is she using her pro-marijuana stance to come down more harshly on Sally?

        There are so many moving parts and unknowns. But I 100% agree that the peer-level coworker caught up is the one I feel the worst for.
     3. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 2:43 pm

        So I posted this before reading OP’s update (s/he posted as “Letter Writer”) and it changes my opinion completely. I now consider it very likely that Sally was afraid for her physical safety, for reasons only tangentially related to the marijuana (such as sexual harassment), and Sally is only fixating on the letter of the law because she didn’t expect the company to take her “real” reasons seriously.
        1. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 5:08 pm

           That’s my read now, too.

           She might have correctly concluded while walking away that she should not be in the same room or car with Manager the next day. Or might have concluded that during Manager’s Loud Adventures With Hotel Staff And Then The Police.
123. kms1025* April 12, 2017 at 1:30 pm

     I have to say I am really surprised at the bad rap Sally is getting by so many here. The real issue seems to be the idiot manager who thought:
     A. Really represent my company well at this conference, let’s get stoned.
     B. Don’t want to get stoned alone, let’s ask my subordinates to represent too.

     For what ever reason, Sally reacted really badly. But for the stupid behavior of her manager, none of the rest of this particular shxt-show would have happened!

     If she is an otherwise good employee, and can do the job she is asking for in the transfer, potential personnel drama solved. Let her transfer, why punish her just because you can?

     The manager however, written improvement plan definitely… demoted, maybe …fired, possibly. Stupid, stupid move.
     1. KG* April 12, 2017 at 1:42 pm

        I’m pretty surprised at the reaction to Sally’s manager as well. He did something illegal while representing his company on a work trip. Even if it wasn’t Sally, someone in the room next door could have smelled it and called the cops themselves. Granted I’m pretty paranoid about PR nightmares given the nature of my work, but smoking a joint in your hotel room sounds like a pretty big risk.
     2. Mike C.* April 12, 2017 at 2:24 pm

        It might be that Sally is actively trying to ruin the lives of her coworkers.
        1. Ennigaldi* April 12, 2017 at 3:11 pm

           You’re really sticking to this point. It’s odd that you’re jumping to “she ruined their lives” based on one arrest – we don’t know if this manager’s even being prosecuted – when the LW has told us that Sally quit AND brought two coworkers with her. If three people are leaving over this, don’t you think there’s a little more to the story?
           1. brighidg* April 12, 2017 at 4:25 pm

              You know possession is a felony in many states.
124. Beancounter Eric* April 12, 2017 at 1:30 pm

     On one hand, I really don’t care what chemicals a person consumes as long as their actions do not infringe upon my rights of life, liberty or property. Smoke, drink, snort, inject….I don’t care as long as you take responsibility for your actions, accept the price if it makes a mess of your life, and not drag others into your situation.

     On the other hand, the law is the law. And had they been stopped in their vehicle by police, Sally’s protestations that she was not consuming Manager’s supply of marijuana would likely have fallen on deaf ears.

     Had I been in Sally’s position – “no, thank you”, followed by a polite email to HR alerting them to the situation, not being in the same vehicle with the manager and co-worker(see above), and separate travel arrangements for after the conference. Demand a transfer….possibly, but don’t really know.
125. KG* April 12, 2017 at 1:32 pm

     What would have been the appropriate reaction here? I once found myself in a similar situation where I turned down an offer to smoke a joint with coworkers (although not from a manager) and wasn’t sure what to do, but never said anything about it to anyone. Had they been caught and someone found out that I knew about it but didn’t report it to anyone, I am 100% certain there would have been repercussions. We worked for a political group though and had they been caught by the hotel and word gotten out, the PR would have been a nightmare. For what it’s worth, these people were fired at a later date for different reckless behavior.
     1. Czhorat* April 12, 2017 at 1:34 pm

        If it were I? Politely decline, go back to my room, forget that I saw anything.

        If they were otherwise behaving recklessly or inappropriately [ie, smoking in public, harassing passersby, driving, etc] then I’d quietly report it to management. Barring that, it’s no harm to anyone else, so none of my business to report.
        1. Venus Supreme* April 12, 2017 at 2:02 pm

           +1
        2. Mike C.* April 12, 2017 at 2:25 pm

           Seriously, I don’t understand why this is so difficult.
        3. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 2:58 pm

           “It’s no harm to anyone else” isn’t accurate – smelling weed it can negatively plenty of people, as can being in possession of it in a place where it’s illegal (and if they drove together and the boss brought it with them, the OP could have been interpreted as being in the latter situation).
        4. brighidg* April 12, 2017 at 4:24 pm

           Exactly. I wouldn’t care unless it was obvious it was impacting their judgement. Then I’d go to HR.
     2. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 1:37 pm

        I think leaving the room and reporting to HR would’ve been plenty sufficient.
126. Mabel* April 12, 2017 at 1:43 pm

     We know it’s going to be interesting when your answer starts with “Oooof.”!
127. Lies, damn lies and...* April 12, 2017 at 1:48 pm

     Anyone else kind of surprised at the hotel’s response to call the police? Is that a normal thing to do? Wouldn’t the hotel investigate first? Something seems kind of off to me… Also, do police usually show up if someone calls and says “there is a person smoking marijuana” – that seems like a lot of police effort to a non-threat. (But I am in Massachusetts where use has been uncriminalized for some time.)
     1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 1:57 pm

        Yeah, I’m surprised by that too – I would’ve thought their reaction would’ve just been to call up to the room and say “We got a report of the smell of smoke coming from your room, please stop.”
     2. AW* April 12, 2017 at 2:36 pm

        I’m sure the hotel would investigate if they were just smoking cigarettes but I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect hotel employees to investigate illegal drug use, even if it is just pot. I imagine corporate policy errs on the side of not having an employee confronting someone who might be a drug dealer, not just a user, and doesn’t make any distinctions beyond “illegal”.

        Police will come out for problems that are just nuisances any place where crime isn’t higher than police resources can handle. I don’t think this is much different than if the hotel had called the police because someone was trespassing and refused to leave.
     3. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 5:03 pm

        Between “Sir, we’ve had complaints of an odor” and “Manager is arrested,” I suspect there exists a whole intervening chapter of Manager’s Adventures At The Hotel that didn’t make it into his final report to Letter Writer about what happened at the conference.
128. 2horseygirls* April 12, 2017 at 1:49 pm

     TL;DR, but as someone who gets violently ill at the tiniest mere hint of the smell of marijuana smoke (my husband said I’m better than a drug-sniffing dog), in a non-legalized state, I would call the front desk and report it as a guest of the hotel.

     I would attend the rest of the conference (with or without my colleagues), and go home. If colleagues were in the pokey, with the rental car keys, then I would rent a car and drive myself home.

     If it came up once I got home, I might say something to my manager that I was offered, declined, and went to my room (to avoid the implication that I partook).

     I think Sally is being a bit over the top, but I tend to lean toward the “karma” system of life.
     1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 1:55 pm

        Wouldn’t it just be better for you to leave the room where you couldn’t smell it though? Honestly, why do you need to get others in legal trouble for something you could handle differently? I find that attitude bizarre.

        And I also object to the idea that those who face legal consequences from marijuana use is just them experiencing “karma” because then “karma” has disproportionately affected black and latino Americans for decades over something less harmful than alcohol and for which all ethnic groups use at an about equal rate.
        1. GigglyPuff* April 12, 2017 at 2:22 pm

           But why should they have to leave a hotel room they’re paying for when another guest is obviously breaking hotel rules (smoking in a room)?
           1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 4:54 pm

              Since this was a work trip I think it’s very very safe to say she had her own hotel room. And OP said this all happened in the managers room. Thus, she had a safe place to return to.
     2. Roscoe* April 12, 2017 at 4:37 pm

        You think its Karma for people to do something that unintentionally affects you. They aren’t intentionally making you sick. If you know these people, isn’t it better than calling the hotel right away? Its like if you know your neighbors, but go right to calling the cops instead of just asking them to turn down their music.
129. ellis55* April 12, 2017 at 1:50 pm

     I think the fact that she is states away matters here. There seems to be a lot of insistence that she should have called HR, but I don’t know what they would have done. It seems, based on the OP’s reaction, that they might have been dismissive.

     So, she calls the home office – assuming at that time of night she gets someone – do they insist she stays, if she is now uncomfortable? How do they discipline the manager in a way that both acknowledges her immediate concern and protects her from retaliation until she gets home?

     Genuinely asking; I’m not an HR professional. I’m just saying, I don’t think she’s obligated to stay in a situation like that and if she were truly uncomfortable (which, it’s not really down to us to judge her reasons – illegal is illegal and it’s not reasonable to expect her to be comfortable with something illegal just because it *should* be legal…) is it reasonable to be upset at her for bailing rather than remaining in a situation where her best case scenario is being across the country with those folks..
     1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 1:53 pm

        I don’t think she needed to call HR right then. Letting them know when she got back (if she must) or via phone the next morning would’ve been fine. She had her own room and the power to remove herself from the situation. She declined to go that route.
        1. Anonymous for This (Scent)* April 12, 2017 at 1:57 pm

           Your last point is one that’s resonating with me. It’s not as if the manager was hot boxing the room while she was trying to sleep. She had a room that she could have noped to but she chose to report her coworkers, hop a Greyhound, and leave the conference.
           1. ellis55* April 12, 2017 at 2:19 pm

              That makes sense. I don’t know their travel arrangements. Is it reasonable to expect her to drive around, drive home, etc. with someone whose judgment she doesn’t trust and almost certainly had illegal drugs with them on the way there?

              The point is, she doesn’t feel safe or comfortable in the situation. I’ve seen posts on this page about why we should accommodate people who are scared of BALLOONS or why someone with a bird phobia should be able to seriously injure someone and keep their job. We all know that most reasonable people would react differently here, but this isn’t a friend group, it’s her job. The expectations for the level of discomfort and illegal activity folks will put up with in a work environment are different than a social one.
     2. Jubilance* April 12, 2017 at 1:57 pm

        She was on the other side of the state, not states away.
130. Language Lover* April 12, 2017 at 1:51 pm

     Wow what a topic.

     I agree that the laws surrounding cannabis are ridiculous. (I say that as someone who has never tried pot and doesn’t even like alcohol all that much.) But one thing that I haven’t seen considered is that perhaps those ridiculous laws might be behind Sally’s reaction to being offered pot.

     We don’t know how the pot got there but a reasonable assumption is that the manager brought it with him. If they drove together, she could have been put in a vulnerable position if, for whatever reason, they had been pulled over and had pot found. She doesn’t know if the cops would reasonably only target one person or if all three in the car would be targeted. What if she’s a POC for whom being caught with something like this can be even more dangerous? Or had convictions in the past where not being around illegal substances is a condition of parole?

     Yeah…yeah, I know these are just huge hypotheticals and maybe she’s just a nervous nelly but I could see a scenario where I would be livid to have a manager put me in that position. I have never done drugs. I doubt I’d be arrested in such a scenario but–I honestly don’t really know. And while I doubt I would have done some of the steps Sally took here, I probably would be freaked out a little.

     I would do my best to accommodate a transfer. If you can’t, you can’t. Sally might have to quit because I certainly wouldn’t give her everything she wants. The other subordinate in the room was put in an unusual situation. The manager? I’d question if he were management material. Who invites someone at a professional event to join them for pot in their room without sussing out their stance on it first? It’s not hard. Ask me what I think about pot and I’ll tell you that I think it should be legal but the smell gives me a headache and I don’t want anything to do with it. Although, I think it’d be inappropriate from a manager even if the subordinates were interested.
     1. CMart* April 12, 2017 at 2:03 pm

        I’m inclined to agree with you–it’s honestly really not that silly or irrational to get up in arms about being put in an illegal situation. Sally’s reaction was definitely an overreaction on the back-half of her actions, but it’s not too far fetched to consider someone might be outraged at being put in that position.

        Full disclosure: I worked in the restaurant industry for over a decade, so was no stranger to my peers (and managers) being very, very open with recreational drug use of various legality. However the one time some young dude left me a little baggie of weed as a tip I was FURIOUS. First, I didn’t smoke so that “tip” was totally useless to me. Second, I really, REALLY did not appreciate being forced into possession of an illegal substance against my will. What the hell was I supposed to do with that when it dropped out of the check presenter and into my hands?

        My coworkers were equally furious that I flushed it (“you could have sold it to one of us and gotten your cash tip that way!”) which I was then even more upset about. In order to have made actual money off that table I would have had to become a drug dealer.

        I don’t even feel that strongly about pot as a drug, but being put in that situation made me really, really angry. If I lived in a state where it was legal then my reaction would have been completely different (though still miffed at getting a useless tip).
     2. paul* April 12, 2017 at 2:09 pm

        I’m really curious about the transportation to/from the conference too.

        I’ve said it elsewhere; there are places in my state where if they find pot in the car, you are *all* going to jail for at least a night or two, and they may/may not decide to prosecute everyone for possession.

        If I was driving through some of those counties and found out a coworker in my car was carrying I’d be freaking pissed.
     3. seejay* April 12, 2017 at 2:22 pm

        I can see the reaction from being around an illegal situation, given your own personal circumstances. As an immigrant, I try to steer clear of any situations that could get me arrested, even if it’s just by being around someone who’s doing something illegal. This means I avoid hanging out with people who are smoking pot when it’s considered illegal since I don’t want to get caught up in an arrest just by association. I have no idea what this could do to my visa status/application, so I’d rather err on the side of caution and just avoid the entire situation in general rather than face deportation.
     4. Christian Troy* April 12, 2017 at 2:29 pm

        Yeah, I think the company was in the wrong here. I’m not sure i would do what Sally did in terms of leaving early on a bus, as I’d probably get my own room, continue attending the conference, and then ditch my manager and coworker. But the manager is the one who screwed up big time by inserting marijuana into this situation.
131. Raine* April 12, 2017 at 1:55 pm

     Has anyone considered that by them choosing to smoke in a hotel that (I assume) the company paid for they are costing the company money to pay a cleaning fee? It doesn’t really matter what they were smoking, they cost the company money and did something illegal to boot. I don’t think Sally’s reaction was appropriate, but the manager and coworker were not being good representatives of the company.
     1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 1:57 pm

        I totally agree with you on this, but I also think that 1) that wasn’t really Sally’s primary concern and 2) that would’ve been a bridge to cross when the company came to it.
     2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 2:03 pm

        Which is why I’d have reported it to grandboss and/or HR.
132. One-off anon* April 12, 2017 at 1:56 pm

     There is one country (I believe) in the world, in southern-central Africa, where diphenhydramine (Benadryl) is illegal. If authorities find it on travelers, they usually just confiscate it (they’re harder on residents). However, sometimes you run into someone in a really bad mood. I’ve spent a lengthy amount of time traveling and living there for work. I am an allergy-sufferer and to top it off, there are a lot of things that bite and sting there for which Benadryl would be quite helpful.

     No matter what my personal feelings are about the law, and no matter what risks I might take personally, I would never, EVER offer Benadryl to a subordinate there. Because when you’re traveling, it’s not a great idea to mess with other jurisdictions’ drug laws, and you certainly don’t encourage subordinates – where there is a power imbalance – to do it. I had people occasionally ask me for Benadryl, and I either helped them solve their problem with legal OTC drugs or took them to a clinic for a prescription.

     A manager offering a subordinate an illegal substance is beyond the pale. It doesn’t matter what one’s personal beliefs are or even if it’s a law that most people acknowledge is dumb. You just don’t put people you are responsible for in that position.

     Sally’s reaction seems extreme, though unlike many others, I assume that if she wanted the police called, she would have called the police. That seems the simplest way to get the outcome you want. I assume she told the hotel because she thought the hotel would send an employee to ask them to stop. But I’m making a lot of assumptions here and I really don’t know. If she’s dramatic in everything she does, then I would address it in everything else she does, not this. If this is a one-off, well, this is a valuable lesson on why you don’t offer illegal substances to subordinates. At its core, it is profoundly unfair. You risk their getting into trouble or you make someone with considerably less power than you have to refuse you. If you go on to hang out and do it with other subordinates, you run into the Rachel and the smoking breaks problem on Friends, where the subordinate worries that she’s losing out on bonding, mentoring and business opportunities by abstaining. It’s simply not a fair thing to do to someone.

     FWIW, I am pro-legalization* and I think a lot of people’s feelings about legalization are coloring their responses. There are great ways to be an advocate for change, to help create the society you want to live in. Offering your subordinate something that could get her arrested is not one of those.

     (*However I am very anti-smoking ANYTHING in hotel rooms, because even when they use the air cleaner stuff, it still smells stale and unpleasant.)
     1. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 2:22 pm

        Thank you.

        My father-in-law was a heavy drinker who did a lot of international travel. If he was in a country where alcohol was illegal, then… he didn’t drink. He certainly didn’t smuggle it in with him, then invite random people from work up to his room to partake of the illegal substance he’d smuggled in. (Using ‘random’ because if you offer it to someone inclined to report you, you’re clearly not using much judgment.)
     2. ReneeB* April 12, 2017 at 3:16 pm

        Agreed, throughout!
133. Liz* April 12, 2017 at 1:59 pm

     I can’t help reading these “well, but it’s ILLEGAL” replies and wondering what those posters would think of a Sally who reported her boss for having gay sex in a hotel on a work trip 40 or 50 years ago.
     1. CMart* April 12, 2017 at 2:05 pm

        He probably shouldn’t have been asking his subordinates to have sex with him on a work trip. *shrug*
        1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 2:09 pm

           Are you being intentionally obtuse? Liz didn’t say anything about the sex-ee being a subordinate, and that wasn’t the point she was making either.
           1. CMart* April 12, 2017 at 2:16 pm

              I’m applying it to the situation at hand. Sally’s boss offered her pot. She didn’t glance up into his window as she walked through the courtyard and see him doing it.

              Therefore if we’re extrapolating to Liz’s hypothetical: it’s not just “reporting for having gay sex” (as Sally didn’t merely report that she suspected her boss was smoking, she knew and freaked out because he directly offered it to her), it’s Sally finding out about the gay sex when the boss asked her if she’d like to partake.
              1. Naruto* April 12, 2017 at 3:34 pm

                 Agree!
     2. paul* April 12, 2017 at 2:10 pm

        Did he invite her into his room and ask her to join in?
     3. Manders* April 12, 2017 at 2:14 pm

        Yeah, I was trying not to draw too many parallels to that, but if Jane reported Fergus for sodomy in a country where that’s illegal and Fergus got arrested, I would be 100% behind Fergus and Jane would be out the door ASAP. Same if, say, she reported Fergus for having kinky sex, engaging in sex work off the clock, possessing certain types of pornography involving consenting adults, having an affair, letting a woman drive, helping a woman get an abortion, gambling, insulting the king, helping a minor obtain birth control, or doing anything else that’s technically illegal in some areas but a victimless crime.

        It could be a lapse in judgment on Fergus’s part to let Jane know those things are going on, but there are laws I morally disagree with to the point that I couldn’t in good conscience fire an employee for committing them.
        1. Manders* April 12, 2017 at 2:24 pm

           I should add that Fergus probably does deserve some discipline in this specific case because it sounds like he was smoking recreationally, not for a medical reason, and he should have been able to abstain until the conference was over. But there are a lot of cases where I’d stand up for someone arrested for a victimless crime even if they knew they were breaking the law.
           1. Michael* April 12, 2017 at 2:51 pm

              Again, huge difference between breaking the law, and asking your direct-reports to join you in breaking the law, in your hotel room, at a conference where you’re representing the company.
        2. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 2:32 pm

           See, to me, all of those come under “If Fergus would just quietly do those things in his room and not announce them to anyone, there wouldn’t have been this problem.”

           If he nonetheless called his subordinate Jane to his room and then asked that she engage in sodomy (illegal) for money (illegal) with a same-sex partner (illegal) to make some porn (illegal) while gambling (illegal) and insulting the king (illegal), the person whose behavior is a problem is Fergus. As soon as Jane turns out to be horrified by those things, before we even get to the part where she is horrified that covering them up is now on her, and if Fergus goes down she might be going down with him.
     4. Michael* April 12, 2017 at 2:50 pm

        It’s not that he did something illegal, it’s that he asked his subordinate to do something illegal with him. There’s a huge difference.
134. IsobelDeBrujah* April 12, 2017 at 1:59 pm

     Can we also please acknowledge that when we femmes feel unsafe in a situation often the absolutely last thing we will say is that we feel unsafe. Because our safety and our feelings are so rarely taken seriously.

     So what I’m reading here is a femme who had a technically valid reason to get out of a bad situation and is sticking to that technically valid reason because given the reactions of her co-workers, they can’t be trusted with anything else if it exists. It’s a lot easier to reiterate “they broke the law,” in the face of a reaction that already makes clear “it’s no big deal,” than it is to talk about subtleties of behavior, coercion, fear, and intra-office power dynamics.
     1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 2:04 pm

        This is a fair thing to consider for sure. Particularly because it’s already been demonstrated that the manager and employee don’t have great judgement. But I don’t think we can assume this is *for sure* the case or anything, but maybe useful for people in similar cases to consider and probe about going forward.
        1. IsobelDeBrujah* April 12, 2017 at 2:28 pm

           I agree it’s not a “for sure” thing. But it’s at least as possible as any other speculation about Sally’s motives, including those of the OP and Alison. If the OP came off to Sally the way they came off in their letter there is absolutely zero chance that I would be honest with them about any motivation less factual and easily proved as possession.
     2. Ennigaldi* April 12, 2017 at 2:16 pm

        Absolutely. It’s disappointing that so many comments here don’t seem to acknowledge that Sally clearly felt unsafe and that is Not okay.
        1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 5:01 pm

           Wellll. If Sally felt unsafe because there’s more going on here than we see in the letter (like it was real pressure rather than just an offer or something) then that’s something. But if Sally just felt not safe because DRUGS ARE BAD then I’m a lot less sympathetic to the over the top actions she took afterwards.

           It’s worth considering that there was more going on here, but I don’t think we can just say “well she felt unsafe so everything she did was fine”
     3. Anon for this* April 12, 2017 at 2:37 pm

        Apparently, not if the femme who feels unsafe doesn’t like pot. She doesn’t like pot–all bets are off. She is toxic and deserves all the bad things.
     4. Mike C.* April 12, 2017 at 2:38 pm

        This is no excuse to get coworkers arrested.
        1. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 4:58 pm

           It appears that the hotel ‘got them arrested.’ And since hotels normally don’t reason “you know what would be good for business? COPS” there is quite possibly more to the Hotel Adventures of Manager than made it into the letter. Or even made it into manager’s explanation of the situation when he got back.
           1. Leatherwings* April 12, 2017 at 5:03 pm

              OR Sally totally overreacted at the front desk and insisted they call the cops. There are lots of possible scenarios here.
135. lokilaufeysanon* April 12, 2017 at 2:09 pm

     1) I would fire Sally for leaving the conference early. She got offered marijuana, it’s not the end of the world. Leaving the conference early was pretty unprofessional. Making demands after that is even more unprofessional. She, too, should be lucky to still have her job after that stunt.

     2) I would fire the manager after I fired Sally. I’m not against marijuana and I think it should at least be decriminalised or legalised (I prefer legalisation, personally). BUT I also think he was a complete and total dunce for offering two subordinates marijuana on a WORK trip. If he smoked it by himself and didn’t involve anyone else in it, then that would be a different story.

     3) I would let the other subordinate keep their job. I don’t think they showed the best judgment in the world, but taking an offered joint is not the end of the world.
136. YouHaveBeenWarned* April 12, 2017 at 2:25 pm

     I’ve been Sarah before in the sense of being offered drugs by my boss in a work setting. In my case, the boss offered me a harder drug back at our hotel, and I declined. I did not say anything to anyone. My thinking was that part of my professional responsibility in that situation was to consider the full range of responses, from nothing to nuclear. I decided that the more serious options could always be set in motion later, but could not be undone once commenced. I watched how he was the next day, and he delivered his typical stellar work performance. As there wasn’t any effect on anyone, I didn’t see the need to escalate anything. If he’d been a mess, I think my next step would have been to tell someone at work.

     So I do understand Sarah feeling uncomfortable with this, and I do think the boss was in the wrong. But I think that, if Sarah stays, you could possibly take future opportunities to explore with her ways to evaluate a range of possible responses to conflicts or uncomfortable situations. I’d also clarify with her that she isn’t obligated to escalate a situation like this, though it’s certainly her right to. She may have panicked a bit and thought that this is what the company would want her to do.
137. AW* April 12, 2017 at 2:26 pm

     I don’t drink or do drugs. But even if I did, I definitely wouldn’t do them in a hotel room with some guy I only know from work. Especially if it were my boss or anyone higher up in the company. That sounds like a trap, even if there was someone else there.

     But the fact that Lisa reiterated her dislike of marijuana upon learning they weren’t fired makes me think that wasn’t the issue. I do wonder if something else is going on and she thinks “drugs are illegal” will get more traction than whatever else her other complaint(s) may be.

     You’d think, if anything, she’d be concerned about the next level awkwardness that would ensue when they came back to work and she had to work with a boss and co-worker she got arrested. I would think that alone would justify a transfer.

     But I’m also concerned that by not transferring her, this turns into a story of how she reported two co-workers breaking the law and ended up losing her job because of it. If she does quit, could she possibly argue that the company essentially *forced* her to resign? Because that’s not great either.
     1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 2:48 pm

        Eh…”some guy I only know from work” feels kind of dismissive. Plenty of people have closer relationships with their coworkers than just being “someone I only know from work,” or at least close enough that having a drink with them isn’t weird. Doing it in a hotel room is maybe a little odd but thinking of my own coworkers, I don’t think I’d feel uncomfortable doing that with any of them, including my manager. It would just be a normal camaraderie thing.
        1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 2:49 pm

           (But also I’m male, so I realize the gender dynamics can play a big part here.)
        2. AW* April 12, 2017 at 3:35 pm

           Plenty of people have closer relationships with their coworkers than just being “someone I only know from work,”

           Oh sure, but based on what happened it doesn’t sound like Lisa was friendly with her boss & co-worker at all. Like AAM pointed out, he didn’t know what Lisa’s reaction would be when he offered her pot, so they clearly don’t know each other well, and she’s currently arguing they should get fired, which implies she didn’t like them much in the first place. I can’t imagine wanting them to get fired on top of their arrest if the drug use was really the only issue and they were friendly before this happened.
     2. AW* April 12, 2017 at 3:42 pm

        I swear, I didn’t see the Letter Writer’s update ( https://www.askamanager.org/2017/04/employee-got-her-colleagues-arrested-for-smoking-pot-at-a-conference-and-now-wants-a-transfer.html#comment-1443154 ) when I wrote this comment. Looks like my need to assert that my personal reaction was probably not the real issue was completely unnecessary.
        1. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 4:55 pm

           Points for insight that she may have focused on the drug use in her initial complaint because she thought that would get traction, and knew from experience with other people’s Attempts To Complain About Chad that other factors would not.
138. Ramblin' Ma'am* April 12, 2017 at 2:46 pm

     Solution: Everyone else at the company changes their email signatures to “Snitches get stitches.”

     KIDDING! I’m always grateful to people like Sally because thanks to them, I’ll never be the most uncool person in the room.
139. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 2:47 pm

     Oof. This is hard, because there are a lot of things in play here.

     In a lot of ways, I feel like the fact that it’s weed involved is kind of a distraction. I might not report it if I was in Sally’s position, because I am morally opposed to the harsh legal consequences for smoking weed that people face, but smoking anything in a non-smoking hotel room is a real dick move. Weed reeks, can trigger health issues (e.g., migraines or serious asthma attacks), and it’s hard to really get the smell out of things. Sally’s manager and coworker were being inconsiderate jerks – they shouldn’t have been smoking anything in a public, enclosed space like a hotel room. As some for whom the smell of weed triggers very serious asthma attacks and migraines, I’d actually have a really hard time working for a boss after learning that they thought that doing so was totally okay. On that level, it’s not really about what they were using – it’s about the impact on others.

     Now, it doesn’t sound like Sally’s objection was on that level. But I’m also having a hard time really sympathizing with a manager who invites people who they manage to use an illegal drug with them on a work trip – because whether or not it should be illegal, it is in that states, which that makes it very different from alcohol or cigarettes. And given the strength of Sally’s reaction, I think it’s fair to say that the manager had no reason to think that at least one of the two people would be interested. Should Sally’s manager have been arrested? No, of course not, but that’s pretty poor judgment, and that’s assuming there wasn’t any pressure.

     Sally did absolutely overreact, and if she has a history of overreacting like this, I think it’s reasonable to talk about that broader pattern with her. I also totally agree with not firing Sally’s manager or coworker. Ultimately, though, I don’t think that being upset with her team manager offering her an illegal drug on a work trip is really something you can come down on her for. I’d give her the transfer and tell her that the entire thing really needs to be over now.
     1. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 3:20 pm

        Okay, having read the OP’s update – wow, yeah, that changes things a little. I think I’d kind of been assuming that everyone on the team was female for some reason – I’d be more freaked out if my male boss did this as a baseline, and the fact that multiple people quit implies to me that this wasn’t just one joint.
        1. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 3:20 pm

           ^ (Meaning I think the manager should definitely have been fired.)
140. Michael* April 12, 2017 at 2:48 pm

     Sorry, Allison, but for once I really disagree (and I’m as pro-legalization as they come).

     Sally’s behavior was bad, but her manager’s decision to offer illegal drugs to their DIRECT REPORT is a firing offense. Period, full stop, end of conversation. It’s colossally inappropriate, and it would make me question every single other decision they made about manager/subordinate boundaries and relationships. The fact that it happened in their hotel room at a conference where they were collectively representing the company? Nope, sorry, out of there.

     And again, I’m pro-legalization; drugs being scary and wrong is Not The Point.
     1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 2:53 pm

        I mean…I’ve been at work events where underage interns were given drinks with a wink-and-nudge kind of attitude, and that was with the big muckety mucks present. I don’t think it’s an inherent moral failing to break a drug or alcohol law, such that I’d question the manager’s ability to do their job. But I also don’t live in a place where a hotel (or anyone else) would bother calling the cops about weed, so it’s hard for me to gauge what a reasonable level of perceived risk would be here.
        1. Michael* April 12, 2017 at 2:59 pm

           I don’t think it’s an inherent MORAL failing, I think it’s an inherent failing of good judgement. I’m actually poleaxed by the example you gave – if one of my employees opened us up to the publicity and liability nightmare that was provided underage interns alcohol, I’d be furious.

           I enjoy drinking with my co-workers, and I enjoyed drinking when I was underage at college, and I have no moral objection to either of those things, at ALL. And in a private setting, I’m totally happy to let my underage cousin have a beer or a glass of wine with dinner, or whatever. But doing that at a work event is just a mind-bogglingly bad idea.
           1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 3:09 pm

              I mean, in that context it was at a private event we were holding in our building, so it’s insanely unlikely anyone would’ve ever found out unless one of the attendees contacted the authorities. So it’s not completely comparable, but my point is just that I don’t agree with drawing such a bright line.
        2. Falling Diphthong* April 12, 2017 at 4:52 pm

           I think there’s a large space between “managers were okay with the 19-year-old intern accepting a cocktail at the crowded work event” and “manager called the 19-year-old intern to his hotel room after the party, and suggested she should relax and have a cocktail with him while they talked about her future.” (With possible added context of “manager is a bit socially clueless but no one thinks it was sexual” versus “manager has a nasty reputation in this regard.”)
141. LadyPhoenix* April 12, 2017 at 2:51 pm

     I am for Pot. Pot is not as bad as many legal drugs and hemp can be quite useful in other material. Also, I feel that many pot arrests exist just to jail young, impoverished, and/or POC.

     That said, it is still illegal in the hotel area to smoke, and pretty much every hotel is nonsmoking (since cleaning smoke is a pain in the ass and hella expensive). What the manager did probably cost the company TONS of cash for damages and arrests. That alone should mean heavy consequences to the manager (PIP or being fired), because this manager displayed a lack of responsibility and forethought.

     Sally should be given a transfer, as Infeel any person who had “whistleblow” on something that leads to an arrest/lawsuit. If you can’t transfer her, then transfer the manager (or have the manager replaced).

     Once that has all been settled, THEN you can explain to her the proper way to react to a similiar situation (contacting the company first and THEN the hotel).
142. Follow the law* April 12, 2017 at 2:54 pm

     I honestly don’t get most of the opinions here. The manager was BREAKING THE LAW. Don’t blame Sally for being a law abiding citizen – blame the laws and the people who put them in place. If someone was stealing or giving minors alcohol or breaking some other law and Sally didn’t report it SHE could have gotten in trouble.
     1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 3:22 pm

        You and everyone else clutching their pearls about how it’s BREAKING THE LAW need to rein it in a bit, and I say that as someone who doesn’t partake of anything besides alcohol. Good heavens. It was, at worst, a misdemeanor, involving the consumption of a substance many states have already legalized and which, from the perspective of public health and actual harm done, makes less sense to ban than alcohol. As BREAKING THE LAW goes, ethically speaking, that’s not really one where it’s necessary to call down the lightning and the thunder.

        The fact that you view it as commensurate with stealing is both bizarre and highly revealing. Why on earth do you think they’re equivalent? One involves doing direct economic harm to someone else. There’s a victim that is victimized, in stark contrast to smoking weed. Do you not see the fundamental ethical difference there?

        And no, Sally was not legally obligated to report it. It was a good idea for her to bring it up with her grandboss as a concern about her supervisor’s judgment and propriety as far as his employees go, but there was no good accomplished by reporting it any further.
        1. Ramblin' Ma'am* April 12, 2017 at 3:26 pm

           I’m with you. I don’t smoke pot, and in fact, can’t stand the smell, but good grief. A simple “No, thank you” would suffice–and if not, if Sally felt pressured, THAT’S the issue, and is something to bring up with her boss.

           Curious if the “follow the law” folks would call the cops on a coworker driving 60 in a 55 mph zone.
           1. Gadfly* April 12, 2017 at 3:35 pm

              Which is as unfair a diminishment of the consequences in most states as it is an exaggeration (going the other way) to compare it to armed robbery.

              Right or wrong, in most states where it is illegal, it is a much bigger deal than a 5 miles over the limit speeding citation.

              It is perfectly fair for people to not feel like it is worth reporting a ticketable offense, but to feel like an arrestable one is more serious.
              1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 3:50 pm

                 It’s a big deal because it’s been made a big deal, not because there’s demonstrable ethical implications for its use. If it were punished commensurate with its actual impact, it’d either not be a crime at all, or it’d be punished much like <10mph moving violations are. There's a good historical case made that the laws were designed to be, and in many ways continue to be, a tool to harass and oppress politcal, social, and/or racial minorities. In that light, I tend to have little sympathy for the attitude that the breaking of this particular law deserves automatic reportage and punishment.
              2. Ramblin' Ma'am* April 12, 2017 at 4:00 pm

                 Hmm…if anything, I feel like that makes it worse, since your coworkers might face serious criminal charges. (I live in MA, where marijuana has been decriminalized for a long time and was just legalized. That’s probably why I instinctively likened it to a speeding ticket.)

                 I just can’t fathom the, “I’M TELLING!!” reaction of running to the hotel manager…and taking pictures?? What on earth? Is Sally 10 years old?
                 1. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 4:13 pm

                    I’m actually a little weirded out by the way Sally telling the hotel is being portrayed as super petty – I don’t think there’s anything super off-base about calling downstairs and saying, “Hey, there are people smoking in X room.” Would people feel like it was ridiculous to tell the hotel if people were smoking cigarettes in a non-smoking room? I agree that not everyone would do it, but it doesn’t feel super ridiculous to me?
                    1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 4:34 pm

                       I dunno…it’s one thing if you smell an anonymous neighbor doing it and it’s bothering you, but to call the front desk on two people you know? And who you only know are smoking pot because they invited you to do it? Feels like tattling to me. I think I’d only do that if I had a moral qualm with my coworker’s actions or if there were risk of harm, like if two of my coworkers got into a fist fight and I needed help breaking it up.
                       1. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 4:56 pm

                          I’ll acknowledge that I may see it differently because the smell triggers asthma attacks/migraines for me, but while I understand not telling the hotel, I don’t really see it as tattling to do so – and given that the hotel confirmed it before calling the cops, it seems likely that it became apparent to people who hadn’t been invited to smoke. The smell of weed in particular really travels, and if I book a room in a nonsmoking hotel, I think that I have a right to walk down the hallway or hang out in my room without having to worry about any hint of that.

                          I’d see it differently if I walked by two people outside the hotel smoking weed or if they were eating brownies – I wouldn’t mention that to the hotel at all. But smoking inside your room? That’s inconsiderate, obnoxious, and one can’t really be shocked when one gets caught.
                       2. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 5:02 pm

                          I guess where I land is that if it wasn’t bothering me personally, I don’t think I’d call the front desk on behalf of a hypothetical other person who might be bothered. Everyone else in the hotel has equal access to their phone as I do – if it triggers allergies for you, I absolutely don’t fault you for calling, but to call purely because it’s against the rules, not because it’s actually harming you in any way is pretty much the definition of tattling.
                    2. Swan* April 12, 2017 at 4:39 pm

                       I read it as perfectly routine: Sally had to go to the hotel desk to check out early, and the staff did what hotel staff are trained to do – asked the customer why they’re leaving early. And if Sally was visibly upset, possibly also using the additional ‘customer in distress/do we need to call the police?’ scripts. Front desk and customer-facing staff quickly get a ‘feel’ for bad situations, and will try to protect people where they can.
                       1. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 5:01 pm

                          Yeah, this is also a pretty plausible read of the situation – especially given that it was evening by the time Sally seems to have checked out. We don’t know whether is the way it happened, but if it is… yeah, I don’t see it as wrong for Sally to tell them at all.
           2. AW* April 12, 2017 at 3:48 pm

              If it was a work trip and I was in the car with a co-worker who was speeding and refused to slow down, my company would *expect* me to report it to them. They covered this exact situation in our safety training.

              (They wouldn’t necessarily expect me to call the cops, but then Sally didn’t call the cops either.)
              1. Follow the law* April 12, 2017 at 5:00 pm

                 Exactly this.
           3. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 4:09 pm

              But no thank you is a charged thing to say to your manager. There is always pressure there.
              1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 4:25 pm

                 Which is why I think tackling it as an inappropriate workplace behavior was a better use of everyone’s time and energy.
                 1. TL -* April 12, 2017 at 4:54 pm

                    I wouldn’t have reacted like Sally did. But – especially given the Letter Writer’s update – the manager’s behavior was so much more out-of-line than hers, even with the calling the hotel.

                    If he had asked back to the room for sodomy (another thing that has been stupidly outlawed), nobody would be saying, “but sodomy (between consensual adults) is harmless! It shouldn’t be outlawed!” Everyone would be saying, “It’s inappropriate to ask your subordinate for that. HR. Now.” Finding out he was a sodomist/sodomist activist, on the other hand, would have gone the way of the BDSM letter this morning – ignore, please. Not appropriate for work.

                    If he had asked her back to his room for a drink, people would be weighing in saying, “Hey, such an extreme reaction means he was probably much creepier than we can get from the letter.” It’s really inappropriate to invite your subordinate to your room to partake of a mind-altering substance. That is a cultural norm we have.

                    But this manager invited her in for something that was work inappropriate, mind-altering, illegal, and in his hotel room. To which she had, I’d bet everything, given zero indication she would ever be open to. It’s beyond inappropriate, he should’ve been fired, and, honestly, she should have been given nothing more than a briefing over the SOP they would prefer her to follow in these circumstances.
        2. Pearl Clutcher* April 12, 2017 at 3:46 pm

           I stand by my clutching. Breaking the law=breaking the law, and one law doesn’t have to be equivalent in magnitude to all other laws to matter. Ethically, if someone responds to a law being broken by reporting it to an authority, they are in the right. We can say it’s not worth the trouble to report it. We can say it will have disproportionate consequences for the law breaker. But none of that is the reporter’s problem. If you break the law, you are subject to consequences, and you don’t get to blame someone else when you experience those consequences. If you want a law to be different, talk to your legislature. I may not have done the same thing as Sally, but she didn’t do anything to “get” her coworkers arrested. They got arrested for their actions. If anything, I think she’d have been more wrong just reporting it to the boss, because if she didn’t think it was a big enough deal to report to the authority responsible for addressing it, in her case the hotel responsible to all patrons for controlling their grounds, then why is she stirring the pot now by bringing it up and “trying to get them in trouble” at work?
           1. Calm Yourself* April 12, 2017 at 4:09 pm

              You seem like the type of person who would have cheered on Rosa Parks arrest.

              She was breaking the law too.

              Maybe she should have wrote a letter from the back of the bus.
              1. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 4:17 pm

                 I understand where this is coming from given the comment that you’re responding to, but I think that drawing a comparison to the civil rights movement is pretty disrespectful.
                 1. Roscoe* April 12, 2017 at 4:53 pm

                    Not really. They definitely say breaking the law = breaking the law and if you have a problem take it up with legislature. If that is your stance, then you can’t later say “but only if its something I’m ok with”
                    1. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 5:10 pm

                       It can be logically consistent and still be disrespectful. There are better ways to make the argument than invoking Jim Crow.
                    2. Anonforthis* April 12, 2017 at 5:24 pm

                       Except there is No doubt that drug laws are much much harder and enforced more on poor and non white people. I am an attorney and in clinic in school I had a client who ended up homeless because of possession, that I know my college classmates received no punishment for. The way young non-white men are shuttled to prison from school and then denied rights is the new Jim Crow.
           2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist* April 12, 2017 at 4:27 pm

              Well, some people really get off on the punitive, terrible judgment kind of thing, so follow your own lights, I guess. Your attitude strikes me as dreadful, and I can’t imagine reducing ethics to this blunt an instrument.
     2. Calm Yourself* April 12, 2017 at 4:13 pm

        So if you’re kid took a sip of beer, you’d call the cops on them too for breaking the law – right?

        And if you saw your neighbor jaywalking, you’d call the cops too, right?

        When your co-workers come around with the football squares sheet and ask for a dollar, do you tell them to wait so you can call the cops?

        And if you live in Michigan and Wisconsin where adultery is illegal, if your friend told you they were having an affair you would tell them you have to call the cops, right?

        Right. Not all laws are made the same.
        1. Follow the law* April 12, 2017 at 5:03 pm

           I get your point but Sally didn’t call the cops and in none of these cases was it a work situation.
143. Critter* April 12, 2017 at 3:02 pm

     This letter reminds me of other letters recently where something will happen between employees, and one employee will makes demand of the employer; “take my side on this”. Generally speaking, I think when there isn’t precedence or policy in place to handle a particular situation, the employer should not cave to the demands of an employee, because that can get super sticky. BUT, even if we can look at Sally’s choices as overreacting, it doesn’t compare to the suuuuper poor judgement of the manager. I’m surprised he wasn’t fired.
     1. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 3:25 pm

        I don’t think it would be out of line for the manager to be fired. But regardless of his behavior, Sally doesn’t get to make demands. She already threw a huge bomb into the situation; she needs to be satisfied that she got what she wanted (PUNISHMENT) and either live with or leave the situation as it exists.

        As a manager, even though she’s the wronged party, I wouldn’t be bending over backwards to keep her given how she’s handled the whole thing, even after being back at work.
     2. Shadow* April 12, 2017 at 3:33 pm

        I think the transfer request was less “take my side” and more “this is going to be hugely uncomfortable and I want to avoid more problems with him.”
144. Gadfly* April 12, 2017 at 3:27 pm

     First, many people I notice seem to be suggesting that OP should be counseling Sally to not report things like this. Can a manager instruct an employee not to report things like this? Whatever your opinion as to if it ought to be illegal, it was breaking the law and instructing an employee to ignore it rings a lot of “this could come back to bite the OP later, HARD” type warning bells. It is one thing to not be required to report, and so not do it, and another thing to have your employer tell you not to.

     Second, I personally think we need to get marijuana off of schedule 1 and do some real research on it, that we don’t have enough information to call it completely safe or a miracle cure the way some do (interestingly enough, it is considered to be pretty useless/unimpressive in traditional Auravedic medicine, and you’d think that they’d be the ones to know if the benefits were as obvious as people claim….) I also think we handle drugs problematically (to put it mildly) in general.

     But here is the giant old BUT. Even with all of that, even if it was something I was gung ho crazy in support of, I cringe hard at a manger telling an employee basically “it doesn’t bother me, so you should just ignore that it bothers you.” Especially a female employee because there is so much UGLY history of that. Having the standard be “I am not opposed to X, so it should just be something that we do a wink wink, nudge, nudge response to” is a BAD IDEA. Probably in part because it is the same logic used to protect a LOT of discrimination.
     1. MegaMoose, Esq.* April 12, 2017 at 4:23 pm

        With very limited exceptions, the United States places no legal duty on citizen to report crimes. I have never seen this particular misconception before and it’s kind of fascinating: are you thinking of whistleblower and mandatory reporter laws? If so, those apply only in very specific circumstances and specific industries.
        1. Gadfly* April 12, 2017 at 4:45 pm

           I know that–which is why I am sayng that while there may not be a legal requirement for her to report anything if she chooses not to, being told by an employer to NOT report things is a whole different ball of wax.
        2. Anonymous 40* April 12, 2017 at 4:47 pm

           I read Gadfly’s question the opposite way. Can her employer forbid her from reporting a crime if she otherwise would, not can they punish her for doing it. Does Sally have a right to report a crime if she chooses? Not a crime by the employer, which I think would make the whistleblower statutes irrelevant.

           My NAL guess would be that yes, her boss can say, “Don’t call the police next time you see Fergus smoking pot,” and fire her if she disobeys. At will employment and ‘voluntary reporter on non-work related crime’ isn’t a protected class.
     2. MuseumChick* April 12, 2017 at 4:49 pm

        Perhaps I missed it, but what I see is most people saying the Sally should have reported this to her boss when the conference was over. Not fled on a grey hound bus after alerting the hotel staff/police.

        Sally absolutely has a reason to be upset for multiple reasons but her reaction was way over-blown.
145. DCompliance* April 12, 2017 at 3:32 pm

     OMG! Is this a record for number of comments? I can’t remember seeing so many!!
     1. Gadfly* April 12, 2017 at 3:36 pm

        Nowhere near the record holder yet–but give it time. This could top it. And be even more vitriolic.
     2. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 3:42 pm

        We’re still about 600 comments short of the bird phobia letter, which I believe is the current record holder for non-open thread/ask the readers posts.
     3. Creag an Tuire* April 12, 2017 at 3:52 pm

        I take it you weren’t here for the Ornithophobia Altercation?
146. Elizabeth West* April 12, 2017 at 3:39 pm

     Oh boy. I haven’t read through all these yet because damn, so I apologize if I’m repeating.

     I think the manager showed really terrible judgment in this work setting; if he wasn’t 100% sure someone partook, he shouldn’t have offered it. He and the coworker are incredibly lucky they didn’t get fired.

     That said, I can’t stand pot and I don’t smoke it, don’t allow it in my house, and it would be a deal breaker for dating someone–as would tobacco, because I’m a former addict and I cannot be around ciggies or I’ll start up again. I know quite a few folks who smoke both (and yes, I have tried it). If you want to get high in your own house, fine–I probably won’t say anything unless you’re really stoned and getting behind the wheel of a car and YOU BETTER BELIEVE I’m gonna take the keys away from your stupid ass.

     Part of my aversion to the stuff comes from living with people who not only smoked but dealt. One of them did, anyway, and not just a few ounces; I once opened a drawer by accident and found a ton of dope bags. Like probably enough to get him (and all of us!) sent to the pen for a long time. I would not want to jeopardize my own future so Fergus and Jane can sit around in an altered state and eat chips and laugh at the fish tank. And pot wasn’t the only drug they used, though the rest were pretty tame in comparison to what they could have been doing.

     I probably would have said something in the moment, like, “I don’t want it, and I don’t think you should be smoking on a work trip because if you get caught, the consequences could be severe. Let’s just forget this happened and please don’t ever offer me that smelly crap again.” And I’d be pretty mad at them for dragging me into it–because if they did get fired, and my boss found out I knew and didn’t say anything, then I could get fired too. But I seriously doubt I would have done what Sally did.
147. Valor* April 12, 2017 at 3:54 pm

     I’ve only read about half the comments, but I can only say:
     No one’s office has a poker game? You know, you are invited over to a coworker’s house (maybe even your supervisor’s) once a month to participate in an illegal activity which may be addictive? In fact, after participating once, you are encouraged to host it? No one’s office did a March Madness bracket? All of this “pot is illegal” stuff just reads wrong; it really depends on their corporate culture, and it’s clear from OP’s tone that the team lead was not that out of line with it.
     I get that this was on a business trip and I agree that the team lead demonstrated poor judgement, but I think many people are being really hard line on this.
     1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 3:57 pm

        I like the March Madness bracket example since in many offices that’s done openly in the face of management and often with their participation; I think it’s a little different since that’s less likely to get busted and get people arrested, but in terms of doing innocuous yet illegal things at work, the comparison stands. It doesn’t necessarily show flagrantly bad judgment.
     2. Ramblin' Ma'am* April 12, 2017 at 4:01 pm

        Yes! March Madness is a great parallel.
     3. Bend & Snap* April 12, 2017 at 4:02 pm

        This is a good example.
        Presumably people who are anti gambling don’t report it and then hysterically board a Greyhound.
148. Noah* April 12, 2017 at 3:57 pm

     Was the conference important? If it was, and Sally wasn’t really pressured to smoke marijuana, I’d fire her for ditching the conference. That just seems so obviously not allowed.
149. Blame the Manager* April 12, 2017 at 4:05 pm

     First, this is all the manager’s fault: choosing to take weed with him, choosing to smoke it in that hotel, choosing to break the law & risk arrest, choosing to offer it to subordinates, choosing to risk the company’s reputation at a business conference. Everything that follows from that is also the manager’s responsibility.

     Whatever your personal feelinga about drugs and drugs laws are, they are irrelevant. You have to deal with the world as it is, where smoking weed risks arrest – and everyone who smokes weed in areas where it’s illegal knows that. And everyone also knows that this issue is controversial and provokes strong reactions, often negative. That somepeople might react badly is also a social risk the manager knew and chose to take.

     Sally seems perfectly reasonable to me in this, taken step-by-step. You can’t expect people to have perfect reactions *in the moment*.

     Sally should never have been placed in a position where, late at night when she was already tired, she had to turn down illegal drugs being offered by a superior, in his hotel room, possibly with the intention of getting her wasted. She should not have had to ask herself if her manager could be Schrodinger’s Rapist. (And that hotel room set-up is dodgy as hell, okay? ‘Inappropriate’ does not begin to cover this)

     She went to the hotel desk (probably in a distreessed state) because she had to check out, and they asked why she was leaving early/if she was okay (basic customer service), and she answered their questions (basic honesty, and she was upset). It’s not her job to lie about criminal offences to protect the guilty, and no-one can reasonably expect her to do that.

     She came home by bus after she realised the hotel was calling the police to have her co-workers arrested. And, honestly, what could she have done if she had stayed, except answer endless questions about how/why her manager got himself arrested. Would that story have helped the company’s rep?

     She should not have had to deal with explaining Manager’s actions to the hotel staff, or how to get home without company tickets/carpool (did the manager have the tickets with his things?), or whether or not to ask for a transfer or quit, or any of that. She had to deal with all that because Manager chose to commit a criminal offence.

     I do not blame her for leaving the conference, especially if she is not a senior PR person. I would not want to be the junior company person having to try and explain why my manager got himself and a coworker arrested for doing illegal drugs at a professional conference. This is not a situation that is covered by the company handbook.

     As someone who has helped run conferences, there’s a not-insignificant chance the conference organising body would throw you out for criminal activities, especially if you actually got arrested at the hotel. Conferences usually have their own rules about professional behavior in the packet that you sign up for when you accept your invite/badge. The conference runners also have to consider the conference’s PR and reputation. I mean, this manager could have got the company as a whole disinvited from this conference for years, if this had turned into a public PR disaster.

     Requesting a transfer or that the manager & coworker be fired is also reasonable. (Many workplaces would fire people for committing a crime and/or bad judgement on this level). They are the ones who caused this mess; none of this would have happened if they’d just waited a day or two to smoke up when they were back home.

     Threatening to quit also seems reasonable, since OP admits to being biased, sympathises with arrested coworkers in the letter, blames Sally for the arrest (instead of blaming the adults who chose to commit that crime and take that risk), and also seems to be taking the whole issue personally. It’s unlikely that OP reacted sympathetically and supportively to Sally, considering the tone of their letter here. If I were Sally, I’d be feeling pretty betrayed by the whole company and questioning whether or not I could work with OP, after this.

     But Sally should not have to lose her job over someone else’s bad choices. And it’s perfectly natural that she should be an emotional mess in this conversation with OP. A normal business trip just spiralled out of control to the point that her manager got himself and a coworker arrested, and now OP is seriously talking about transferring her, firing her, or encouraging her to quit. Being threatened with losing your job is bound to make anyone an emotional mess.

     If OP is talking about transferring Sally, that does come across as a punitive action against her, especially if coworker and manager who caused this mess get to stay in their jobs. The two (men?) who behaved unprofessionaly and got arrested get to keep their jobs. The one woman – who refused to commit any crimes, refused to behave unprofessionaly, and who did not get arrested – gets fired. Think how that looks/feels to Sally. Is there an element of sexism here? Why should Sally get punished by losing her job, when she didn’t do anything wrong?

     From Sally’s perspective, realistically, there is no chance that these people will be able to work together. And Sally hasn’t done anything wrong. She chose not to commit a crime; everything after that spiralled out of her control. And all of that is the manager’s responsibility anyway: he’s the one who chose to commit a crime, behave inappropriately with coworkers, and risk damaging the company’s reputation. It’s the manager’s fault that he got arrested, and his fault that OP is now having to try and handle this mess.

     Honestly, I am sick and tired of the people here who seem to be expecting that Sally should have violated her own ethics and boundaries to protect her manager – an adult! – from the consequences of his own actions. He is not a child. He made a choice; there were consequences. He has to deal with that.

     (Considering the power and gender dynamics at play here, it also comes across as weirdly sexist and a bit rape-culture-y, too. Women are allowed to set clear boundaries, dammit, and no, we don’t have to protect and emotionally nurture other people to the point of putting their needs ahead of our own!)
     1. Lisa* April 12, 2017 at 4:40 pm

        This is the best reply I’ve read to this thread. Thank you for encapsulating my thoughts perfectly.
     2. Frozen Ginger* April 12, 2017 at 4:52 pm

        You have a lot of good points. My one note is that, from LW, it doesn’t sounds like Sally called/emailed her superiors at the office while on that Greyhound. I could be wrong on that. I’m not saying Manager didn’t screw up royally and completely, but I think Sally should’ve at least had the mind to text/email LW and give a heads up before getting back into town.
     3. Jules* April 12, 2017 at 5:05 pm

        +1000

        Should have read this before I posted. I agree with you completely in every way.
150. brighidg* April 12, 2017 at 4:06 pm

     Given how the War on Drugs in America ruins the lives of many people, especially the poor and minorities, calling the cops on someone for a victimless crime of smoking weed is a dick move.

     And in America you can be fired for pretty much anything, including being a dick.

     Let Sally walk.
     1. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 4:39 pm

        I totally agree the the War on Drugs is bullshit, that it’s disproportionately applied in racist and discriminatory ways, and that going out of your way to get people arrested for it is a dick move.

        But I think that a man inviting a woman that he manages into his hotel room at night during a work trip to use an (illegal) drug with mind altering effects is also a dick move, as is smoking anything in a (probably non-smoking) hotel room on a work trip.

        It’s not ridiculous for someone to react poorly to that – if my male boss invited me to drink with him in his hotel room one night, I’d feel incredibly uncomfortable – and Sally didn’t call the cops. The hotel did. The fact that weed shouldn’t be illegal doesn’t change the fact that all of that put together shows horrifically poor judgment, and especially given the way the company treated Sally after it and the fact that multiple people left the company because of that suggests to me that Sally isn’t just overreacting.

        (Just to be clear, I’m not making assumptions – the OP clarified the manager’s gender above, along with a few other things.)
        1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 4:47 pm

           if my male boss invited me to drink with him in his hotel room one night

           I think if it’s a one-on-one scenario I can see why you’d be uneasy, but there was another coworker present. If you picture this as three colleagues coming back from a long day of meetings and the boss saying “You guys wanna swing by my room for something from the minibar? It’s going on the corporate card!” would that really raise red flags the same way? That’s how I’m picture the interaction in this letter going.
           1. Zillah* April 12, 2017 at 5:16 pm

              It might make it slightly better or slightly worse (depending on whether the coworker was also male), but yeah, still red flags. Virtually all hotels that I’ve stayed in (esp conference locations) have hotel bars. You can put drinks there on the corporate card just as well, and it doesn’t involve asking people you manage to sit on your bed. (I can’t think of a whole lot of standard hotel rooms with three chairs.)
151. TootsNYC* April 12, 2017 at 4:37 pm

     . She showed me and my boss a photo of the team manager smoking the joint and stated she was angry and upset at having an illegal drug pushed at her and pressured to use it.

     If she hung around long enough to take a picture of him actually smoking the joint, I’m curious about what happened.

     Did she say no and start arguing that they shouldn’t smoke it? And stay to argue the point, get argued back from them (i.e., “…drug pushed at her and pressured to use it”), and take the picture in the middle of it all?

     I’m somewhat new to a smartphone (but not new to an iPod Touch, which is much the same thing), and it takes me a certain amount of fiddling to get a picture. So how long did she stay in the room? Long enough to get a picture of the actual smoking of the joint–so longer than “Want a toke?” “No, how dare you! I’m going to my room.”

     I bet there was a big argument, with her preaching at or scolding them, and them defending themselves (hence the “pressured” comment) and then making fun of her, and her taking the picture and storming out.

     And that’s extra stupid of the team leader!
     1. LBK* April 12, 2017 at 4:51 pm

        I forgot she took a photo – that does make the whole scenario even more confusing, since that means she did at least go back to the room with them and was hanging around long enough to snap a pic (presumably surreptitiously?). Did she just play along so she could get evidence? Or did the boss have them go back to his room under another premise and then offered it after they were there? The letter makes it sound like it was all one offer (come back to my room and smoke) so I’m confused.
152. ThursdaysGeek* April 12, 2017 at 4:54 pm

     I find it interesting that a lot of people are thinking Sally’s reaction was wildly irrational (and I kind of agree that it is), and yet, when someone wrote in about finding a bullet casing on her desk, there was a lot of agreement that being completely freaked out about that was reasonable. True, that person had the presence of mind to write to Alison, rather than leaving the building and refusing to return. But different things freak people out differently. People sometimes react very poorly and unprofessionally, sometimes push a co-worker out of the way and into a car, and sometimes flee the scene of drugs. It would interesting to hear from Sally, to find out the reason for the extreme reaction. Maybe she is just a drama-llama who sees the world in right and wrong. I hope the OP does ask her. And then updates us.
153. Jules* April 12, 2017 at 5:02 pm

     OP, I hope that you take another look at this from the viewpoint that Sally’s supervisor (a person with authority over her) asked her to commit a crime.

     If he’d asked her to defraud your company, or damage the hotel room, would you still think she was over the top?

     I’m pro-legalization, but this wasn’t in a state where it’s legal. She has to deal with the world as it is, not as we’d like it to be.
154. Amy* April 12, 2017 at 5:03 pm

     Weed is such a divisive, complex issue in the US right now. I think that’s really complicating things here.

     If this were a different illegal action, I’d probably be thinking something like the following:
     – The manager did an illegal thing, and told Sally they were doing it. This was both unprofessional and stupid of them.
     – Sally chose to report that illegal thing. This is fine, she’s allowed to do this, and her workplace should never discourage her from reporting a crime. It would definitely look bad if her employer penalized her for reporting a crime.
     – Sally also massively overreacted by checking out and taking a bus home early. Assuming she wasn’t fearing for her safety, she should have stayed and completed the trip.
     – Sally asking for a transfer is understandable–I doubt any of these people want to work together anymore. If there is a good spot to transfer her to, then the employer should consider that option. If not, they should tell her a transfer isn’t available, and let her make her own decisions from there.

     Of course, the illegal action here is marijuana possession, which makes the reporting seem extreme to a lot of people. Weed isn’t any worse than alcohol or tobacco, the way laws surrounding it are enforced are often heavily racially biased, and punishments can be massively out of proportion to the crime. But I don’t think that functionally changes much. All of the above things are still true. All of this is awful for the reported employees, but I think the employer is already doing what they can to mitigate that by choosing not to fire them (which is a decision I support).

     As far as handling Sally goes: Don’t reprimand her for reporting a crime (if possible, don’t discuss whether smoking weed is really all that bad at all; she’s already shown she’s not reasonable on this topic). But do maybe reprimand her for leaving the trip early. And only transfer her if she meets whatever requirements you would usually look for when evaluating a potential internal transfer; if there isn’t one available that’s a good fit, or her performance isn’t up to par, then tell her a transfer isn’t available and let her quit if she wants.
155. Gov Worker* April 12, 2017 at 5:15 pm

     I wish I could ask Sally why she accepted the invitation to go into the bosses’ room. Unless me and my boss were really good friends, I would have confined socializing to public hotel spaces. And I’m not conservative at all, but hotel rooms are kind of private to me. I would also ask Sally what she thought would take place when she agreed to go into the room.

     There was just a humongous thread about whether or not an employee can demand another employee be fired as a condition of them staying on. The consensus was no.

     That said, Sally the narc should have declined to partake, reminded boss it was a nonsmoking room (I would have suggested putting a towel under the door), went back to my room, and proceeded to mind my own business. The fact that boss smoked weed would have just been some information for me to know about them.
     1. Gadfly* April 12, 2017 at 5:24 pm

        Because boss=someone with power over important aspects of my life who is insulted when I say no? And we still don’t know what Sally meant by pressure.
156. Gov Worker* April 12, 2017 at 5:18 pm

     “went back to HER room, and proceeded to mind HER own business”.
157. Winger* April 12, 2017 at 5:25 pm

     Let Sally quit. That’s really all I have to say.

Comments are closed.