giving coworkers a questionnaire about my performance, gender-neutral pronouns, and more

by Alison Green on April 6, 2017

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Can I create my own performance survey and ask coworkers to fill it out?

I have a question about running my own performance survey. My job is in engineering integration, and I interact with a large number of people on a regular basis (I’m an individual contributor, not a manager). I want to get more clear, direct, and actionable feedback on my performance than what can be gained from my company’s HR system. The goal is to learn more about what I do well and what I do poorly, and what I can improve.

Do you think it would be weird if I created a Google questionnaire soliciting feedback and rating different aspects of my performance to people I work regularly with? Something like a performance survey that HR might do, but more direct with a larger sample size. Answers would of course be anonymous. I have a feeling it could come across as weird. What do you think?

Yeah, I think it’s just so not normally done that it’s likely to come across as strange. But that doesn’t mean that you can’t solicit feedback on your performance — I just wouldn’t do it through a questionnaire. I think it’s likely to go better if you ask people more informally to just talk with you in person about it. And because most people aren’t comfortable giving criticism to coworkers, think about ways to structure the conversation to make it “safer” for them to do that. For example, if you could ask people to tell you one thing that they think is going really well and that you should do more of, and one thing that you could work on approaching differently. (You’ll also probably get better answer if you don’t put people on the spot and instead give them an advance heads-up so they have time to think about it.)

This isn’t going to get you the same quantity or candor of feedback that a detailed, anonymous survey would produce — but I think it’ll seem a lot less odd to people.

And of course, if your manager is at all decent, you can really lean on her for more detailed feedback as well.

2. Manager is being weird about jeans

We usually wear black or khaki pants and a uniform shirt at my retail job. Every year around the winter holidays, corporate has a special long-term event where on Fridays in December and the entire week of Christmas, we’re allowed to wear jeans as long as we wear a holiday sweater with them. They send down emails and handouts about it, and the person/store with the best outfit(s) gets a district-wide shout-out by the district manager, and sometimes a little perk, like a lunch on the company.

Our manager doesn’t like us to wear jeans. At first, he didn’t realize we were allowed to wear jeans. He told us about the sweaters, and my coworker said, “And jeans.” Boss said, “No, not jeans.” My coworker and several others chimed in and showed him the handout where it explicitly said we could wear jeans. Boss looked nervous and changed the subject. After that, the announcement was taken down from the bulletin board.

The next year, when the handouts came, we caught him hiding them behind his computer in the office — yeah, behind it, stuffed and crumpled in under the cords — and then later I found them in the trash. Eventually the handout was returned to the bulletin board, but Boss had carefully edited out all the sentences that included the word “jeans.”

It’s not a huge deal, but Christmas is a terrible time of year for us, what with dramatically increased customer traffic and holiday hours extended to midnight, and lunch and comfortable pants is a small comfort that he’s trying to keep away from us for some reason. All the other stores do it. What gives? Is this normal? What could be the motivation here? Should we have mentioned it to the DM? Or should we just chalk it up to bad luck that we ended up with the jeans-hater?

It’s probably your manager’s prerogative to require a stricter dress code at your location than what other locations do, in which case, yeah, it’s just bad luck that you ended up with him. But it’s possible that the company wouldn’t be happy to know that he’s trumping their holiday stuff with his own rules, and it’s quite possible that they’d be surprised to learn about it.

I don’t think this is worth making a huge deal over, but you could certainly say to him something like, “Can you clarify the policy on jeans? Our understanding has been that corporate specifically allows them on Fridays in December and the whole week of Christmas, and that it’s part of the company holiday contest. We want to be able to participate in that. Can we assume we’re allowed to, since it’s coming from corporate?” He might still say no, but you’ll be forcing him to make it more explicit than it’s been so far.

3. A coworker objects to my using gender-neutral pronouns to refer to her (and to everyone)

I’m non-binary, and I have come out in both my work and my personal life. I started a full-time job after I finished college around the same time I began coming out. Everyone at work has been cool except for one person.

Since I came out, I have been addressing people as gender-neutral [ze, hir, mx.] I do this because there are others who are non-binary like me, but they may not be out yet and I want to be respectful and make them feel safe. The one person from my work who is not cool with me being non-binary told me to address her using female pronouns. I’m not misgendering this person, I’m using gender-neutral pronouns, not incorrect ones. However, this person corrects me every time. No one else has corrected me or said anything. This person says they respect my pronouns (true) and I need to respect theirs. I thought this person was transgender and I didn’t want to offend or upset if this was the case, but when I asked they said are not, they are cisgendered.

I went to my team lead about this, but my team lead said this person is not doing anything wrong and just because they want to be addressed with female pronouns does not make them against non-binary people. I’m thinking of talking to my manager or going to HR if that doesn’t work. This person makes me uncomfortable. What should I say? When I talk to my manager, should I bring up the fact that others may also feel uncomfortable or should I only focus my own discomfort?

I think you’re getting hung-up on the idea that it’s not misgendering her because you’re using gender-neutral pronouns. But those aren’t the ones she prefers to use for herself.

I think you should use the pronouns that people prefer to be called by. This person has told you that she uses female pronouns. The most respectful thing is not to insist on using different pronouns for her, but to use the ones she’s requested — just like you would want someone to do with you.

4. How do I follow up on my manager’s offer of professional development?

I recently applied for a temporary manager position in my department and was turned down. My director told me that she “really thought it would be [me]” but they decided to take a coworker with more experience. She told me she still wanted to give me opportunities within the department for professional development, as she wants me to stay here and grow.

At the time, I told her I understood and thanked her and told her I’d like that, since she grabbed me right as I was leaving to meet a client, but I really do want to take her up on the offer of professional development if she meant it. Should I send her an email thanking her and asking for a meeting to talk about what that may look like? Wait until my supervisory meeting next month and bring it up again? Or is it a mistake to push it?

Take her at her word! It’s definitely not a mistake to bring it up again. If you meet regularly, I’d just wait for that next meeting and bring it up then. Say that you appreciated her offer to help you find development opportunities and ask if you can talk about what that might look like and how to make it happen.

5. Saying “bloody hell” at work

My workplace is very decorous — no cursing, no negativity, everyone is (too) sweet. One coworker likes to use the words “bloody” and “bloody hell” as substitutes for curse words he would use in the situation. We have diverse clientele, including people from other countries. Would someone from the U.K. find the word offensive if they heard him say it? I think it’s pretentious so it gets on my nerves, but I don’t know what level of discourse it belongs to in the U.K. Any thoughts?

I always thought it was more akin to “damn” and thus perfectly acceptable in most offices, but I’m American. Hopefully our U.K. readers will tell you something more definitive in the comments.

Updated to add: British commenters have corrected me below! It’s apparently more profane than I realized. (Or not? There appears to be disagreement.)

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    This is a request not to pile on re: letter #3 and to give the other letters some attention too. (You are likely to find the point you wanted to make about #3 has already been thoroughly covered below.)

    1. I tend to Disagree*

      Maybe a “like” system could help this in the future? I think part of the reason that people are reiterating points is because they want to show support of a point that they felt was well made. Right now the only way to do that is to also reply. Just food for thought.

  2. Wow*

    #3 I agree with Alison. You should use the pronouns that people want you to use. It’s kind of you to want to be considerate of those who are non-binary, but I would just call everyone by the pronouns they prefer.

    1. MillersSpring*

      I’m stunned that the OP asked the colleague if they are transgender. That’s none of the OP’s business.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I thought asking the coworker if they were transgender was fairly inappropriate, but what really has me slack-jawed is that OP is making formal complaints and wants to escalate those complaints to punish the coworker into accepting gender-neutral pronouns. It made me do a double-take. I have literally re-read that part of the letter about five times, now.

        I’m really struggling (and this may be just a huge empathy gap on my part) to understand why OP thinks it’s ok to try to get someone disciplined or fired for asking a coworker to respect their gender expression.

        2. INTP*

          OP said this person is “not okay” with OP being nonbinary so maybe she has said other offensive things to OP that would warrant escalation. Sometimes when you know intuitively (or explicitly) that someone doesn’t respect you it’s easy to confuse the reasonable things they do with the not-okay things they do. I don’t personally agree with refusing to use whatever pronouns a person requests but based on the info in the letter I don’t think we should assume that the OP is trying to get the coworker in trouble purely for wanting to express her gender.

          1. Lioness*

            But we don’t know how the coworker is not okay with OP being non-binary.
            What we do know is that coworker respects OP’s pronouns, and wants to be referred by female pronouns.
            So this is all we know about reporting, but fighting back on how someone else wants to be referred is much different than reporting a coworker who is not respecting one’s identity.

            1. aebhel*

              Right. The substance of the complaint is that the coworker won’t let OP call her by gender neutral pronouns. If there’s a different complaint that actually has some merit (coworker is making fun of OP’s gender identity, or complaining about ‘those people’ or how hard it is to use correct pronouns…although OP doesn’t really have a leg to stand on in the last case), then that should be brought up to the manager. But it sounds like the OP wants to complain to hir manager because hir coworker doesn’t want to be called by gender-neutral pronouns, which is beyond inappropriate.

              1. Annonymouse*

                I’m waiting for OP3 to see the irony.

                So coworker calls you by your preferred gender pronouns and asks that you refer to them by their preferred gender pronouns.

                Instead you take this as an attack (?) or at the very least something that should be referred to HR.

                It comes across very much as “respect my chosen pronouns but I’m not respecting yours.” Which looks very hypocritical.

                Your manager is right in this case. Please let this go and respect your coworkers gender identity the way they respect yours.

                Also your argument to refer this higher is flawed. It’s the equivalent of saying I don’t support LGBTIB lifestyles or people because I chose to participate in “heterosexual” marriage. It’s assuming the only way to support is to be a part of the group or live the lifestyle even if it doesn’t conform to my personal identity.

          2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            It’s hard for me to tell from OP’s letter whether that person has actually said they’re not cool with OP’s identity or if OP is assuming that the coworker is “not cool” with it because the coworker has asked to be referred to by feminine pronouns. But the only “trigger” OP has referred to is the coworker’s request that OP reciprocate being referred to by one’s preferred pronouns.

            1. Allie*

              Well because of this:

              “The one person from my work who is not cool with me being non-binary told me to address her using female pronouns. I’m not misgendering this person, I’m using gender-neutral pronouns, not incorrect ones. However, this person corrects me every time. No one else has corrected me or said anything. This person says they respect my pronouns (true) and I need to respect theirs.”

              Given that “they respect my pronouns (true)” it seems like this female coworker is “not cool” with her being addressed in a non-binary way, not with the OP being non-binary.

              1. Emma*

                It’s entirely possible to respect someone’s pronouns and still not respect their gender; misgendering is a common form of antagonism, but it’s far from the only one.

                1. Allie*

                  True, but it also seems to be the substance of the person’s complaint to their manage, given this “I went to my team lead about this, but my team lead said this person is not doing anything wrong and just because they want to be addressed with female pronouns does not make them against non-binary people.”

                  So either there’s something BIG the co-worker has done that the OP has left out on a couple occasions, or this is the substance of the complaint.

                2. Forrest*

                  Eh, I don’t want to make the OP feel bad or discount her experiences, but I find it questionable that she just stated the coworker isn’t ok with the OP’s gender identity (is that right?) while the OP herself isn’t respecting her coworker’s gender identity.

                3. Forrest*

                  OP, I just realized I used female pronouns to refer to you. I have no excuse for that and while I tend to be more aware about, I did slip up and I’m sorry.

                4. LoiraSafada*

                  It’s also entirely possible that OP has given coworker a reason to dislike them that has nothing to do with being transgender.

              2. PhyllisB*

                Okay, please educate an old lady. I know what trans-gender is, but what is non-binary and cisgender? These are terms I am not familiar with.

                1. Sans*

                  cisgender – when your sexual identity is the same as the body you were born with.
                  non-binary – you don’t feel like you’re entirely male or female and prefer neutral pronouns used when referring to you.

                2. Reader*

                  Non-binary -> Does not explicitly identify as either male or female.
                  Cisgender -> having a gender identity that corresponds with the gender assigned at birth (think of it as the opposite of trans).

                  Both of these are probably oversimplifcations, because gender is complicated, but get the idea across.

                3. Lance*

                  Cisgender is going by the gender you were born as (i.e. male/female); non-binary is when someone doesn’t identify as either of those two base genders.

                4. hermit crab*

                  And in case you were wondering where the word comes from, “cis” is a Latin prefix that’s the opposite of “trans” — for example, in organic chemistry, you get “cis isomers” that are made of the same components as “trans isomers” but they are oriented/rotated differently in space. “Cis” means “on the same side as” while “trans” means “on the opposite side from.”

                  (Not saying this to be snarky at all! I think it’s an interesting thing to know.)

                5. The IT Manager*

                  Point of fact: non-binary means that a person does not feel they are fully male or fully female but that they are somewhere in the middle of that spectrum.

                  (Simplified non-binary is akin to bisexual. Many people see two choices (straight/gay or male/female), but there’s a spectrum and there are people all along the spectrum including some in the middle bisexual or non-binary.)

                  Non-binary people do not necessarily prefer to use neutral pronouns to refer to themselves. That is very likely the kind of person who requests neutral pronouns. However I have a non-binary friend that chooses male pronouns. Admittedly this person is in his 50s so when he transitioned 20 years ago the concepts of non-binary and neutral pronouns were probably not yet articulated enough for him to explain or request that of people. He continues to prefer and request male pronouns; although, now describes himself as not non-binary.

                7. Allie*

                  I’ll also add that not everyone 100% agrees on the language used or definitions. There are a lot of ways to think about the dichotomy between gender, sex, gender expression, and so on.

                  For instance, someone can identify fully as a woman, but then not perform any of the societal gender expression of what we commonly associate with women (hair, clothes, etc.), but would probably very very much not like it if you refer to them as not belonging to the female gender.

                  Which is why I’m in the camp of “let other people lead you on their preferences”.

                8. HisGirlFriday*

                  @hermit crab: I did not know the Latin origins of ‘cis’ and ‘trans,’ nor did I know their use in chemistry, so I learned something new today — thank you!

                9. KHB*

                  It’s not just chemistry, either – if you study Roman history, you read about “Cisalpine Gaul” (i.e., the part of Gaul on “this” side of the Alps, from the point of view of the Romans) and “Transalpine Gaul” (the part on “the other” side).

                11. Beachlover*

                  Another old lady here! thanks for the explanations. Also, can some one explain the gender neutral terms [ze, hir, mx.] how do you use them or pronounce them?

                12. Jadelyn*

                  @The IT Manager – point of correction, being nonbinary doesn’t mean one feels oneself to be “in the middle” of an imagined spectrum of gender. It’s an umbrella term that can encompass agender people (do not identify with a gender at all), genderfluid/bigender people (identify with multiple genders at different times or simultaneously), third-gender people of various types (identify with another gender entirely that is neither male nor female, but is not necessarily “in the middle”), and various other subtypes. We’re not all just “in the middle”, some mix of male and female.

                  Gender is less of a spectrum and more of a nebulous three-dimensional space. Some people are directly along the line between male and female, but there’s a lot of space for others to be hovering in various other areas nearby too.

                13. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  @Beachlover:

                  ze = nominative pronoun (substitute for he/she), pronounced “zee”
                  hir = possessive pronoun (substitute for his/hers), pronounced “here”
                  Mx. = title (substitute for Miss/Ms./Mrs./Mr.), pronounced “mix”

                  For the last one, you know how some folks pronounce “milk” as “melk”? Mx. is sometimes pronounced with that same short e, which sounds closer to “mex.”

                14. Kriss*

                  @ Beachlover:
                  ze–say zee rhymes with sea. use as you would she or he

                  hir–say hear. use as you would use him or her

                  mx.–say mix. use as you would Mr. Ms. or Mrs.

                15. Not Rebee*

                  Possibly worth mentioning that while ze, hir, and mx. are all gender neutral terms that you can use, they are often complicated seeming for people who haven’t given much thought to gender neutral pronouns before. This post kind of proves the point, because there’s a lot of people who haven’t heard them before, don’t know how to pronounce them, etc. I find that if you’re in doubt and want to stay gender neutral, the singular “they” can be a good choice unless someone specifically says they’d prefer you to use ze or hir. There’s some argument over whether or not the singular they is grammatically correct, but the fact is that people use it all the time without realizing it and that using it on purpose only takes a small amount of extra effort. It’s a good start, I think, if you’re really unsure about how it works.

                  If you’re still unsure, you can always try telling a story (to yourself or someone else) about something (a person you saw at the grocery store, a childhood memory, whatever) without ever using a he/she or him/her pronoun. You’ll have to think about it, but it’s not as difficult as it seems :)

                16. Beachlover*

                  Thanks Everyone! on same topic. Does anyone watch Billions on Showtime? They introduced a non binary character this season. It has been very interesting.

                17. Karen D*

                  NotReebee, I agree. The Associated Press just a few weeks ago approved the use of “they” and “their” as singular pronouns for people who prefer gender-neutral language, with a note that puts that usage in context. I’m glad the AP did that; most papers as a matter of policy follow AP style, and before now we had only binary pronouns. (I have to admit, I’ve violated that on occasion after a specific request from somebody.)

                18. white pawn*

                  Cisgender – “Identifying with” the gender you were assigned at birth. For example if you are a woman and you “identify with” the trappings of the female-gender-role under patriarchy (being paid less, being regarded as an sex object, not being taken seriously, etc.) then you are Cisgender.

                  Non-binary: not fully identifying with either gender stereotype. For example if you are male but you like braiding hair (a “woman thing”), or you are female but you are able to use power tools (a “man thing”), you are non-binary. Approximately 100% of the population of earth is non-binary as almost no one is a literal two-dimensional stereotype of total masculinity or total femininity.

                19. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  @white pawn, identifying as cis does not mean you identify with female gender roles and patriarchy. I’m sure there are some women who identify as cis and believe that, but that’s not a definitive (or the only) meaning of “cisgender” in contemporary gender studies and LGBT/women’s rights advocacy.

                20. aebhel*

                  @white pawn

                  Cisgender just means that you’re not trans or nonbinary. It has nothing to do with feminism, political opinions, feelings about the trappings of femininity, or anything else. It literally just means that you were identified as a female infant when you were born and you still feel like ‘female’ is a accurate description of your gender, or that you were identified as a male infant and still feel like ‘male’ is an accurate description. You can be a cis woman with a crewcut who works on an oil rig, but if you identify as a woman, then you’re not nonbinary.

              3. Vicki*

                “However, this person corrects me every time. ”

                I read this as this person “corrects” the use of ze, hir, or mx to refer to _her_.

        3. Winger*

          This is all such a new phenomenon for our society to deal with, I tend to give people a wide berth when they do something like this that seems so inappropriate on its face. I would hope that, given that this person is enlightened enough to make an active effort in their life to reject the gender binary, they would also be able to empathize with other people and not fall into the trap of imposing their worldview on others.

        1. Leah*

          I wonder if OP has recently come out and has not connected with any fellow non-conforming people, and is simply trying to embrace their identity in a really misguided way that has not yet been corrected.

          1. Eohippus*

            You’re probably right. I definitely don’t read it as the OP having any ill intent.

              1. Loose Seal*

                Happy to see they asked a professional’s opinion first, though.

                This stuff is hard. Even if you are 100% committed to each person’s choice, it’s easy to slip up. (Sort of like how you might sometimes refer to a friend who changed their last name after marriage by their previous name. That always happens to me out of the blue and decades after the name change. I have no idea what neurons fire to make me do that but all I can do is apologize, correct myself, and go on.)

                1. Arjay*

                  I’ve been married six years and sometimes call myself by my maiden name. Don’t feel bad. :)

                2. SKA*

                  Yep, and and important thing to remember is, people understand the occasional (or even frequent at first) misstep. If you catch yourself saying the wrong name/use the wrong pronoun, just say “Oh gosh, sorry about that!” when you realize it and then move on (while making a mental note to try harder — because if it happens EVERY time, the person is going to think you’re just being a passive-aggressive jerk). Going on and on about how bad you feel and begging forgiveness just makes the situation all about you. Which is awkward for everyone.

                3. Mallory Janis Ian*

                  Ha. When my son was first born, it took me over a week to call him by the name we’d chosen for him. We named him “Liam” and I kept slipping up and saying “Ian”, then I’d be like, “Wait a minute — what did I name this baby?” and fish around for the correct name. I called it having the two names “stored on the same brain cell”.

                  It’s the same thing for me with Carrie Underwood and Kelly Clarkson; I can remember each of their names if I think of them one at a time, but I can never remember one’s name at the same time that I’m thinking of the other. To even write this sentence, I had to ask my co-worker, “What’s the other one’s name besides Carrie Underwood?”, and he knew exactly who I meant and supplied the name. To me, they are both stored on the same brain cell as post-American Idol success stories.

                4. The Final Pam*

                  It’s easy to slip up, but I’d also caution that sometimes people go “oops, I slipped up” but it happens every time. I have trans friends who know the people who, just about every time, use the wrong pronouns or use their dead name, and the person frames it like “oops, honest mistake” but when it happens dozens of times it doesn’t feel that way.

                  The occasional slip up is fine, especially when someone first comes out or transitions, but people should also try their very best to not make mistakes the norm.

                6. meat lord*

                  Out of nesting, but I wanted to reply to Arjay and say thanks. I changed my name about six months ago, and I still have to work very hard to think of myself correctly. It’s reassuring to hear that it can take a long time to adjust to your own name change.

                7. JessaB*

                  Also when you do slip up and mis-gender or dead-name someone, don’t make it all “OMG OMG OMG I’m sooooooo horrible.” Just apologize and move on. It’s not about you and your (generic you and your,) feelings. Making a big deal means the other person has to then stop and calm you down, which they shouldn’t have to do.

                8. Michelle*

                  My mother-in-law once called me by my husband’s ex-wife’s name! She was mortified; I didn’t notice. (The ex and I both have very common names for our generation, which start with the same letter and are so similar that our respective mothers call us by the same nickname. All my life I’ve had new acquaintances slip up and call me the other name by mistake.)

              2. Jadelyn*

                I disagree, and I don’t think it’s fair to OP3 to ascribe maliciousness to what sounds a lot more like misguidedness. I think there’s a misunderstanding on OP3’s part about what they, as a nonbinary person in the workplace, are entitled to – it sounds like they feel entitled to try to create a gender neutral space by assigning everyone NB pronouns, and the coworker pushing back threatens that sense of entitlement to gender-neutral space. So, given that, to OP3 going to HR seems like a logical step because they feel like their identity is under attack.

                It’s not – at least not simply because someone else doesn’t want to be referred to by the wrong pronouns, we don’t know why else OP3 thinks the coworker is anti-NB – but making that mistake doesn’t create malicious intent. More overzealous self-defensiveness.

                1. Leah*

                  Exactly. OP’s behavior is beyond inappropriate, but I don’t think that means they are a bad person, just extremely naive and unaccustomed to norms followed by the nonbinary/trans community.

                2. Hey Nonnie*

                  I also want to note, for the OP’s sake, that continuing to use gender neutral pronouns for someone who has explicitly stated that her preferred pronouns are she/her, IS misgendering. And antagonistic in the same way that intentionally misgendering a trans or non-binary individual is. This person’s gender identity is NOT neutral, she has said as much, so respect that — the same way you want people you meet to respect your gender identity and preferred pronouns.

                  Speaking as someone who moves in circles where it’s commonplace to introduce yourself with both name and preferred pronouns.

          2. seejay*

            Sort of like the new vegetarian/vegan who doesn’t know anyone and has to loudly proclaim it to the world and everyone else around them about how they’re now veg*an and lecturing all their friends and family about the horrors of the meat they’re eating and that “look there’s no meat on MY plate???” and becomes an utterly insufferable twatwaffle because it’s something new and shiney that they’ve just discovered and they haven’t yet figured out how to navigate the whole thing and they don’t a community of like-minded people to reign them in and say “look, you don’t have to behave like that, you’re not doing yourself any favours”?

            *cough*, not speaking from experience or anything, not at alllll.

            sorry, little tangent there.

              1. Parenthetically*

                If a vegan does crossfit, what will they talk about first? (See also: me when I first did Whole 30.)

                1. Rebecca in Dallas*

                  Hahaha, I’m a vegetarian marathon runner. Thankfully, I have lots of friends who run and/or don’t eat meat so I have people to talk to about it!

                4. Bryan*

                  So what if they’re a vegan crossfit marathon-runner with a rescue-pet and they went to Harvard?

                5. Koko*

                  There’s a similar joke about a vegan, an atheist, and a Crossfitter walking into a bar. I know because they all told me within 1 minute of arriving.

              2. seejay*

                yeah I’m shocked a lot of my friends stuck around too. I got better eventually and stopped being so horrible about it. >>

            2. Boop*

              Twatwaffle is my new favorite word.

              See also: people who just moved to NYC and now think there is only one city on Earth and every other possible geographical location is the ass end of nowhere.

              Not to offender New Yorkers or NYC, perfectly fine place. It’s just that the rest of the planet exists also.

                1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  What, like there’s places other than California, or parts of California other than the Yay? ;)

                4. specialist*

                  I lived in New York. I once played a game with some of them. Name the states you pass through driving west on I80. They got as far as Pennsylvania.

                5. Gertrude is Gertrude is Gertrude*

                  Specialist, that’s not because we’re navel-gazing idiots, it’s because we’ve all forgotten how to drive.

                  We mispronounce “Houston, Texas” because we’re navel-gazing idiots.

                6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  To be fair, it’s difficult to name all the states that I-80 goes through because many folks driving east-west to central California cities (Sacramento, the Bay Area), jog back and forth between I-70 and I-80.

              3. Sugar of lead*

                I know what you mean. That is nothing compared to Texas.
                Bumper sticker: I’m from Texas. What country are you from?
                Another bumper sticker: SECEDE!
                There’s also a Texas pledge of allegiance, best described as a cheap ripoff of the national one. Don’t get me wrong; I’ve got some good memories from living there, but it’s like another planet.

        2. MW*

          It’s a pretty big faux pas outside the trans community too.

          Whether someone is or isn’t trans, the chances of the person being put-out by the question are high!

      3. Audiophile*

        I originally missed that on the first read. That is an incredibly person question to ask a coworker at work, especially in a new job. That likely compounded the icy reception OP is getting.

        1. Working Mom*

          Agree, too personal. And while I also agree it doesn’t sound like OP has malicious intent or is trying to be difficult, I suspect OP is coming across as trying to push his/her (I’m sorry I’m officially confused and don’t know what pronoun to use) personal feelings about gender onto others, whether they want it or not. (Similar to the comparisons made above.)

            1. The Final Pam*

              Yeah, some non-binary people prefer other pronouns, but I see they/them most commonly used by the non-binary people I know.

        2. Hey Nonnie*

          Yeah, I suspect that the OP is misinterpreting the co-worker feeling insulted at being misgendered and prodded with TMI questions at work as being “not okay” with non-binary identities. Not so much that she’s not okay with non-binary, but that she’s not okay with being treated that way and is creating social distance in an attempt to preserve professional boundaries. (I know I’d be sorely tempted toward sharp words if someone insisted on misgendering me.)

      4. Susan*

        What also strikes me as weird is that, if I understand correctly, OP #3 would be willing to use female pronouns if the coworker were transgender, but is not willing to do so because the coworker is cisgendered.

        2. New Bee*

          Yep, and it may compound her frustration if she’s been misgendered before. I’ve seen ciswomen referred to as “he/him” by people who were just being mean and insinuating how “mannish” or “unattractive” they were (for example, Wendy Williams).

          1. many bells down*

            Yessss. I look just like my father. I have masculine features, a low voice, and a prominent Adam’s apple. I’ve been deliberately misgendered in attempts to insult, and I am a ciswoman.

          2. Violet Fox*

            Yeah that or being in a mostly male field and having everything being defaulted to “he/him” because women “don’t exist in Whatever” no matter what Whatever is.

            1. Loose Seal*

              Yes. And how it’s a cheap joke in novels and TV for a new military recruit to address their female superior as “Sir…I mean, Ma’am…I mean, Sir! No, Sir!”

              It’s never “ma’am” when they want to indicate the recruit recognizes the superiority of a female officer in fiction, but “Sir.”

              1. Elizabeth West*

                My favorite reply to this kind of thing is in the film Aliens:

                Hudson: “Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man?”
                Vasquez: “No. Have you?”

            2. Junior Dev*

              “Good work, gentlemen!”
              “The guys have been working really hard on this.”
              “Let’s get to it, boys.”

              …Just another day in the life of a female software developer, NBD.

              1. Camellia*

                So why does it seem MORE offensive when our manager starts any email that is just addressed to the females on his team with “Hi ladies”?

                1. fposte*

                  The answer probably lies in you, but in general “ladies” is not a professional term unless you’d be calling the men “gentlemen,” and it suggests both a social couching and an exaggerated delicacy about the gender of his recipients in a situation where i’s irrelevant.

                  On the other hand, English sucks at mass direct address, as Emily discusses elsethread (h/t Turtle Candle); not everybody grew up with “you guys” as gender neutral, and “You all” is a weird address. My guess is that he’s trying not to say “Guys” and isn’t good at thinking up another opening.

                2. fposte*

                  BTW, by “in you” I just mean we all have our own reasons why particular usages snag on us, as is evident in this discussion.

                3. Mallory Janis Ian*

                  One of the professors in my department became so accustomed to walking in and saying, “Hello, ladies” that he continued to do so even after we hired a male receptionist. We “ladies” had never tried to make him stop coming in and saying it, but the “gentleman” put a stop to it after only a semester-and-a-half or so. Old habits, I guess . . .

                4. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

                  This is why “dudes” refers to men, women, mixed company, and inanimate objects.

                5. aebhel*

                  @fposte, I usually use ‘Hello, all’ or ‘Hello, everyone’ for mass emails. ‘You guys’ doesn’t bug me from a gender perspective (although it does some people), but it usually seems too informal.

                6. Hannah*

                  I get so frustrated by this because it’s SO EASY to address a group in a gender neutral way. “Hi everyone” is completely neutral and professional, “Hi folks” is more informal, neither is likely to in any way offend anyone.

                7. Museophile*

                  I hate “Hi Ladies” so much. Informally I am very partial to “you guys” but I use “Hello All” out of deference to those who don’t like “guys” as a gender neutral.

              2. Skullclutter*

                I also like when they remember I exist and add ‘.. and girls’ as though I’m not the only one.

                1. BananaPants*

                  Yeah, I tend to be on emails where the sender is referring to, “Gentlemen”, and then when they realize I’m female they change it to “Gentleman and Lady” or whatever. That just makes it worse!

                  When emailing a group in a work context I usually use, “All” or “Everyone”.

              3. NotAnotherManager!*

                This is why I love y’all. It works for everyone. I also use “folks” which my team finds amusing for some reason.

                One of my managers hired a woman last year for what had been her all-male team, and it probably took her three months to stop “Gentlemen… and [NewHire’s name]”, but her new hire thought it was funny and said they sounded like a band.

            3. Gail Davidson-Durst*

              I like “everyone” or “folks.” I don’t know whether this is an Irish thing or a personal quirk, but one of my colleagues begins all group emails with “Dears,” which makes me chuckle every time.

          3. Trillian*

            Yeah, to me it would be more of the “not a proper woman” thing that I ran into growing up, because I didn’t enthusiastically perform femininity. There can be times that gender progressivism can come off peculiarly reactionary, with the same familiar narrow definitions of men and women.

            1. Jaydee*

              That’s my feeling as well. I spent a lot of time when I was little questioning whether I was a “proper” girl because, while I enthusiastically performed femininity in some ways, I decidedly did not in others (see, for example, me in a frilly pink party dress climbing over a fence to get a ball that had escaped into the neighbor’s yard). I am confident in my biological sex and sexual orientation, but I don’t want that to define or limit how I dress or what I like or what I do or how I am perceived by others.

        3. Emma*

          I think OP’s point there is that using gender neutral pronouns can be a form of transphobic passive aggression – like, ok, I’m not going to actively refer to you as the wrong gender, but I am going to refuse to refer to you as the right gender, because that’s usually passive enough to fly under the radar in a way that referring to a female coworker as “he” wouldn’t.

          Cis people don’t generally have that added reason to object to gender neutral pronouns. I do agree with previous commenters that OP’s actions are inappropriate anyway – while I think of neutral pronouns as non-gendered and am thus happy to be referred to by them, some people think of them as gendered in a way that is neither male nor female, in which case it’s inappropriate to use them when you know someone uses gendered pronouns exclusively.

          But I can see where OP was coming from, even if I don’t think they arrived at the right conclusion.

          1. I woke up like this*

            One objection I’ve read to using gender neutral pronouns for everyone is that it erases the non-binary folks who DO identify as ze/them/hir. Like, by saying, “these pronouns apply to everyone!” you’re also de-legitimatizing the people who actively chose those pronouns because they align with their gender (even if their gender is androgynous or non-binary, it’s still a gender). I dunno if I’m making sense here… I’m still waking up!

            1. Hekko*

              You’re making a lot of sense. English language already has singular they, which may refer to a person of any gender (usually, I think when you don’t know the gender or don’t want to disclose it), so ze/hir are a great way to express that you know the gender of the person – and it’s neither male nor female.

              And it makes sense that people who have to fight to be recognised as neither male nor female would feel strongly against having this small step taken away.

              1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

                >>English language already has singular they>>

                Sort of. It’s generally/socially accepted but still not technically grammatically correct. Then again, last I knew the Associated Press stylebook still insists on using “fireman” instead of “firefighter” (please someone correct me if that’s changed, it’s been a while!). Proper grammar/newspaper style/etc. often takes a long time to catch up with social language constructs.

                1. Detective Amy Santiago*

                  Actually, that recently changed. Alison shared a link elsewhere in the comments.

                2. Allie*

                  Well and I’d bet there are teachers all over the country who will cross out “they” and replace it with “his or her”. People are very slow to change from the rules they learned.

                3. Parenthetically*

                  Singular they has been used in English at least since the 14th century. Stylebooks are dogmatic about it because of Victorian grammar dogmatism, but if “grammatically correct” means anything like “how people have been using grammar for literal centuries,” there’s nothing wrong with it.

                5. Someone*

                  Language is not set in stone, it evolves. Besides, as far as I know “they” has been used for centuries as a gender neutral pronoun, and even if many people keep claiming that it is “incorrect” they still understand what is meant.
                  So… there is a pronoun that has been used as gender neutral for a long time and is understood by everyone, even if they don’t like it – then why not use it?

                  I’m a proud user of “they” as a gender neutral pronoun. Actually I absolutely LOVE it. I think it’s awesome that English has such a handy pronoun which sadly does no exist in my native language, German.

                6. Observer*

                  @Allie, there are teachers who “correct” lots of perfectly grammatical (non)errors.

                7. Lioness*

                  Grammar can be correct or incorrect depending on who you ask.

                  Most advocating for “correct” grammar are prescriptivists.

                  But if you ask a descriptivist, they will say it’s grammatically correct since it’s how the language is being used.

                  It’s kind of akin as to how people opposed singular “you” back in the day. I know there’s a letter out there of a rant, I’ll find it later.

                  Anyways “you” only used to be referred to in the plural form and “thou” and “thy” were singular. People were livid when others began using it in the singular form. So this isn’t much different than that.

                9. Loose Seal*

                  I had a professor a few years ago (also my advisor so we were able to have a long chat about this) who returned a case study I had written to have me redo it. Her issue was that I used the singular “they” since there wasn’t an indication of the patient’s preferred pronouns in the presentation. We used the APA style manual which at the time, didn’t allow for a singular “they.”

                  She found my position on the subject interesting but still wanted it redone. I tortured my language so that all verbs became plural and “they” was technically correct at that point. She laughed and accepted it but said she really just intended for me to change every “they” to “he or she”. But that’s really clunky after the first instance.

                  She was blown away when I told her about the rise of gender-neutral pronouns. I don’t think it had ever occurred to her that we get new words in English every year so why wouldn’t we develop new pronouns when we recognize a need for them?

                10. Lioness*

                  For those interested, here’s the rant on singular “they”:

                  http://allthingslinguistic.com/post/146771865157/next-time-someone-complains-about-singular-they

                  Anyways sorry for the double post, I had been using my phone earlier and getting ready to leave home, but just wanted to show that the use of the plural form to refer to the singular form is nothing new.

                  It’s used in the first person when the Royal “we” is used.
                  It’s used in the second person with the use of “you” instead of “thou”. (realize that when one uses “you”, the plural conjugation is used; such as “you are” instead of “you is”.)

                  Those have been around longer, and now it’s being seen in the third person. So you can argue that it is grammatically correct and there is precedent.

                11. JB (not in Houston)*

                  Parenthetically is correct–a singular “they” has been in use for centuries. There is nothing wrong with it grammatically.

                12. fposte*

                  “Been in use for centuries” isn’t the same as “nothing wrong with it,” though. And even the AP isn’t adopting the singular “they” as the standard, and they recommend you work around it when it’s not a reflection of somebody’s pronominal preference.

                  I still think it’s an acceptable correction to make in most situations.

                13. Maxwell Edison*

                  Chicago Manual of Style doesn’t use singular “they” (though if a client requested it, I’d use it).

                14. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  Whether grammar is correct or incorrect has all sorts of embedded questions, but the issue I’m noticing here is determining what register of English you’re using. For example, we don’t speak the way we write, and for good reason. And the way we might speak with friends is different than how we speak when there’s greater formality. That doesn’t mean that certain speaking or writing conventions are more/less grammatically correct—it means there are multiple registers of English in which certain grammar rules apply. And those rules don’t apply equally to all registers.

              2. SpiderLadyCEO*

                Even in the trans community, this is super rude. It’s generally considered OK to refer to people with they/them, neutral pronouns until they state a preference, but once they do, you need to respect that.

                The thought process is that you shouldn’t make assumptions about what pronouns people use based on their appearance, but once meeting you will be told, and proceed accordingly.

                OP is deliberately ignoring OP’s coworker’s stated preference, which is incredibly rude and disrespectful.

                It’s also particularly concerning that OP would call OP’s coworker by the coworker’s selected pronouns only if the coworker is trans, which is firstly none of OP’s business, and secondly comes across as trans people being more “worthy” of selecting pronouns for themselves then cispeople.

                All in all, OP seems like they are trying to do the right thing, but they way they’re going about it is incredibly rude and pushy. If you want people to use your chosen pronouns, you do have to respect theirs.

                1. Rebecca Anne*

                  This ^^^

                  That’s pretty much how I reacted. The OP has blatantly refused to acknowledge the coworker’s preference for female pronouns, which while not necessarily misgendering is denying the OP’s personal preferences. More than likely the rest of the coworkers just couldn’t give a hoot, but this one coworker does. If this was the other way around, with that coworker refusing to use the OP’s preferred pronouns, I could see a case for talking to manager or HR, but the OP’s being disrespectful and rude.

                  Honestly, I’d have the same problem as coworker. I identify with female pronouns and would be a bit annoyed if that wasn’t respected. I have no problem with the question of how I identify, but only respecting if that person is actually trans too… This just gives me a hinky feeling. :(

                2. Lab Monkey*

                  All of this, yes.

                  I’m nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them. You use what people ask. It’s not hard.

                3. turquoisecow*

                  Yes, exactly. People have a right to their chosen gender identity, even if it’s the one they were born with. I was born female, I identify as female, and I don’t want to be referred to as “ze,” I’d like you to use “she.” It’s kind of hypocritical of the OP to expect people to respect their pronounce while not respecting anyone else’s. If their coworkers insisted on referring to them as “she” or “he,” they’d be quite upset.

                  It goes both ways, dude*.

                  *Dude being, of course, gender-neutral.

                4. Kate the Femme Nonbinary Lesbian (The artist formerly known as Kate the Little Teapot)*

                  Given that OP asked if their coworker was transgender, I wonder if the coworker is a cisgender woman who is sometimes read as male or androgynous due to either physical features or personal style.

                  In that case it seems like she might be insisting on she/her pronouns because she doesn’t want to invite more of this sort of misreading.

                  This may also explain why she’s the only one who’s coming into conflict with OP over nonbinary pronouns – because while she might live and let live otherwise, she fears she will be interpreted as nonbinary in the workplace, and her identity erased.

                5. Anna*

                  I don’t think it’s even that nuanced. The OP states the coworker asked to be addressed by she/her. OP asked if coworker were transgender and then said ze would only call the coworker her/she if the coworker were transgender so as not to offend her if she were. The unspoken part of that is it only matters if the coworker is transgender when that is not the case. It matters because that is what the coworker has said she prefers.

                  The insistence on being addressed by the pronouns the coworker prefers is probably not seated in a fear of being misgendered, I’d wager. It’s as basic as that’s how the OP’s coworker prefers.

            2. Detective Amy Santiago*

              I think this makes perfect sense. The people I know that choose to use neutral pronouns like ze and hir do so because they either don’t identify as any gender or because they are genderfluid so in my mind they have a very specific connotation that isn’t appropriate to use for cis or trans people.

              (I realize my experience may not be universal)

              1. Jamie*

                That’s my thinking too. I know there are some exceptions but my gender pronoun understanding is:

                He – refers to a man or someone of unknown gender

                She- refers to a woman

                Singular they- gender unknown

                Gender neutral (xe,mr,etc.) – neither man or woman

                They- multiple people of any/all gender

                1. Detective Amy Santiago*

                  A few people below explained this much better with the clarification that there is a different between gender neutral (single they) and non-binary (ze/hir).

            3. Alton*

              Yes, this is how I feel. I try to take people’s preferences in good faith, but it does bug me sometimes when people who to the best of my knowledge identify as cisgender use gender-neutral pronouns in an effort to be inclusive. I use gender-neutral pronouns because I want to be out and visible.

              1. Baker's dozen*

                Ah, see I’m non-binary and would totally love it if more/all cis people also used gender neutral pronouns.

                1. Anna*

                  I am very pro cisgendered people identifying which pronouns they prefer, whether it’s gender neutral or otherwise. I wear a button frequently that says ‘her/she’. On the website for a local LGBTQ+ organization, every one of the board members lists their pronoun preference in their bio.

                  The thing is, no one group should have the corner market on gender or gender neutral pronouns, and really you’re making a statement about your gender identity just by asking people to refer to you using gender neutral words.

          2. BananaPants*

            I’m cis and have zero desire to be called by gender neutral pronouns. If someone identifies as non-binary and indicates a preference in having gender neutral pronouns used (I see “their” and “they” 99% of the time), I absolutely use the pronouns that they prefer! Given that, I expect the same courtesy of having others use the pronouns that I personally identify with – which happen to be gendered female.

            1. I woke up like this*

              I’m not sure who or what you’re responding too, but have you read the post or the comments? The overwhelming consensus is that everyone has a right to declare and embrace their pronouns, and thus, can object to a pronoun.

        4. DArcy*

          Not necessarily. The sort of gender identity politics which dictate that everyone should be referred to using nonbinary pronouns tend to actually double down on that ideological stance around trans people, insisting that trans people’s identities are invalid and regressive.

          1. Gadget Hackwrench*

            Gender Abolitionists. Eugh. They give the rest of the non-binary community a bad rep, with the whole “I am non-binary and SO ARE YOU,” bullcrap. You can’t tell someone else their gender. I mean I get it. I went through most of my teenage years thinking everyone else was faking at gender, because I didn’t feel like I belonged to one side or the other, but just… floated in the middle, but then I grew the heck up and realized that just because I can’t feel it doesn’t mean no one else can!!!! How one makes it to adulthood without realizing that individual life experiences are subjective is beyond me.

            1. Spelliste*

              “How one makes it to adulthood without realizing that individual life experiences are subjective is beyond me.”

              This is a constant source of amazement. And beautifully put.

              1. Mononymous*

                I feel like this belongs in needlepoint on a throw pillow or something. Well said, Gadget Hackwrench.

                1. LawBee*

                  only if it’s followed by a ” – Gadget Hackwrench” because that is the best name and I am so jealous of it.

                2. Emily, admin extraordinaire*

                  Gadget Hackwrench was a character in the Disney Afternoon’s Chip and Dale’s Rescue Rangers show (same vintage, roughly, as Duck Tales and Tailspin). She has a ride in Disneyland (Gadget’s Go-Coaster) that’s for little kids who have absolutely no idea who she is. I figure it’s bound to be re-themed at some point.

        5. Sylvia*

          Specifically, they would be willing to use “she” only if their coworker were willing to come out to them as a trans woman. Their coworkers have to disclose very personal things to them in order to get the right pronouns used.

          FWIW I have actually seen this in real life. The person calling everyone “they” did it when talking about a trans guy we knew, who was out to everyone who heard this, and I eventually asked if that was his preferred pronoun (had I been using the wrong one??). They said no. I told them to call him “he.” They didn’t seem to get it and it was a very strange conversation.

          Constantly using the wrong pronoun for people, ignoring their stated preference or the cues of what those who know them use, isn’t how you show support.

      5. Turtle Candle*

        Yes, it does strike me as really iffy to require someone to out themselves to use their correct pronouns. And it’s going to be a pretty obvious form of outing–if all the cis people are ‘zie/hir’ but all the trans people are ‘he/him’ or ‘she/her,’ that’s… well, it’s not only requiring disclosure of very personal things, it’s publicizing them.

        As I mentioned elsethread, one of my former roommates and very good friends is a trans man, and in his daily life he passes as male without making it clear that he’s a trans man vs. a cis man. He wants simply to be referred to and considered a man in daily life, with he/him pronouns. I am fairly sure that he would find it pretty dreadful to have to justify wanting the pronoun “he” by revealing that he’s a trans man when he generally prefers to pass. Referring to him via gender neutral terms would be a misgendering, and forcing him to out himself as a trans man would be against his preferences as well.

        1. Kit M. Harding*

          I witnessed a variant on that once: an acquaintance said “If you identify as cisgender, use they/them pronouns for me; if you identify as genderqueer or trans, use she/her pronouns.” I was not pleased about being required to choose between outing myself and misgendering someone. (Especially given that at the moment my gender is mostly “confused” more than anything. I reacted to *that* by ceasing to use pronouns altogether, but that was only not-noticeable because I haven’t got that much contact with this person.)

          1. winter*

            At first I thought this rule is legit, but you’re right: It requires people who are not out to out themselves :/

            1. Jadelyn*

              Either out themselves, or closet themselves. I’m not out as NB anywhere but online, but it kind of makes me grind my teeth when I have to choose “female” or “Ms.” on forms. I imagine having to self-categorize as a cis person via my pronoun choices for someone would have much the same effect.

          2. Dizzy Steinway*

            This makes so little sense. Why would you choose pronouns for others based on your own gender identity?

            1. Jamey*

              It’s not about choosing pronouns for others based on your own identity, it’s about a comfort level from the person who’s pronouns are in question. Most trans people feel more comfortable expressing gender stuff with other trans people so in my experience, when someone uses different pronouns with different groups, it’s more like, “Hey most people call me X but in safe company I’d actually prefer to go by Y”

              1. Just Another Techie*

                Yeah but every time I’ve encountered that it’s been for everyone in the situation/group. So, “When I’m at work or with my in-laws, everyone uses she/her to refer to me, and when I’m with my friends or my LGBTQ meetup everyone uses they/them, even if some people are both work-friends and LGBTQ-meetup-friends.” Not “I’m at work, and I want the cis people in the conference room to use she/her and the trans/NB people to use they/them.” That’s. . .ugh. It sits really wrong with me.

                1. Jamey*

                  I don’t know… I get that the way you’re representing it where someone is really aggressive about the line is weird. But like… here’s an example. I have a friend who’s a trans woman. I used to use she/her pronouns for them but now that we know each other better, they’ve given me permission, I guess, to use they/them pronouns, which they prefer in queer spaces and between queer friends. My dad is also friends with them! He still uses she/her pronouns, even though he knows I use they/them, because he’s not queer and not as close with them and hasn’t been asked to use them. It doesn’t feel weird to us to use different pronouns because I’m queer and he’s not, and because we have a different relationship with the person in question.

                  I think the main difference here isn’t that it’s the same for everyone in a situation/group but that it’s non-aggressive. If I were to use she/her pronouns, it would be fine. But if my dad were to use they/them pronouns, it would make them feel a little uncomfortable. It’s basically a bonus set of pronoun options for fellow queer people. And there’s no need to out myself because I could use she if I wanted – which is what makes it different from the original scenario.

          4. Jamey*

            I know people who prefer different pronouns depending on their company, but in my experience it’s been more of a “safety of the community” thing. Like I know a trans woman who has been using she/her pronouns for a long time and she still wants cis people and the general community to use she/her pronouns for her, but in queer spaces, she also uses they/them pronouns.

            It’s less, “If you identify as trans/nb, you must out yourself and use they pronouns for me” and more “If you’re part of the trans/queer community, it’s okay if you use these alternate pronouns for me that I wouldn’t be comfortable with the general community using.”

            If the person you were talking to was requiring you out yourself in a more aggressive way then yes that’s definitely rude

            1. Kit M. Harding*

              This wasn’t someone I interacted with very much, so I don’t know how aggressive the “but you identify as X!” would have gotten. But it wasn’t *phrased* as “it’s also okay if you use these alternate pronouns”– whether that was deliberate or poor word choice I have no idea.

            2. turquoisecow*

              That makes sense. But even in that case, it’s that person’s decision on what pronouns they want others to use for themselves. Your trans woman friend would probably not insist on calling others by they/them pronouns in the queer spaces, even when they asked to be called he/she/whatever.

          5. Jadelyn*

            Just want to chime in with sympathy on the “my gender is “confused”” thing! I have a former friend whose bio on social media referred to them as “none gender with left girl” (a play on the none pizza with left beef meme), and if not for the fact that I kind of hate that person now I’d have borrowed that description for myself, but I still just am not sure what I am. The closest I can get to a singular, recognized identity would be genderfluid, more or less I guess.

            Anyway, good luck working through the gender confusion stuff – I know I find it deeply uncomfortable not having a simple term for it that *fits*, and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone!

          6. General Ginger*

            I would be so uncomfortable with this. I’m a trans guy, but I don’t pass and am not currently out than online and to a relatively small circle of people in person, and this would essentially force me to make a choice whether to actively out myself or actively closet myself.

      6. DArcy*

        Speaking as a nonbinary trans girl, there’s a huge difference between using gender neutral pronouns such as singular they, and using nonbinary pronouns such as ze, hir, mx. Using neutral pronouns as the social default avoids misgendering people. Using nonbinary pronouns does the exact opposite; it’s aggressively misgendering the overwhelming majority of people around you, which is offensive to everyone and especially harmful to trans people (whether we’re binary or nonbinary identified).

        I find it incredibly disturbing that OP is not only claiming that their coworker is a bigot simply because she prefers female pronouns for herself, but is outright trying to get management to force her to accept having pronouns dictated to her by OP.

        The bottom line is simple: people have a right to be addressed by whatever pronouns they identify with, not whatever pronouns are dictated by someone else’s politics.

        1. Gadget Hackwrench*

          ^^^^^ THIS.
          Local Androgyne checking in (Xe/Xem/Xyr, but even with a button on every coat, and a magnet on my desk cabinet no one ever USES them.) Using “they” can be a way to be careful with people who’s pronouns you do not yet know, but once informed you go with what they tell you their pronouns are. That means if she says her pronouns are she/her, YOU GO WITH IT. Ze/Xe, Hir, Mx, etc all connote a non-binary identity. (e/er is ACTUALLY gender neutral but no one knows Spivak so how about lets not belabour that point) Applying non-binary pronouns to a binary gendered person IS misgendering, and yes, you can missgender a cis person. It doesn’t have the same inherent dangers, i.e. is not a violent act, when applied to cis folks, but calling anyone by a gender that’s not theirs, (or not the gender they tell you to, if they’re in the closet and prefer you use the gender they’re passing as) is not OK. OP#3 you’re not a bigot, but you’re definitely not in the right. Your co-worker may BE a bigot about your gender, but asking you to use HER pronouns correctly isn’t a part of that.

          1. LawBee*

            “(Xe/Xem/Xyr, but even with a button on every coat, and a magnet on my desk cabinet no one ever USES them.) ”

            How are they pronounced? I’ve not seen this one before – usually I’ve seen the zi/zir (but never heard IRL).

            1. fposte*

              Yeah, I think x wasn’t a great choice as an initial consonant and I think it’ll work better if consensus move to the z.

            2. Gadget Hackwrench*

              Same as Zi/Zem/Zir. It’s just an alternate spelling. No one’s ever asked, or tried though. They just carry on with she/her. Whatever. I don’t have enough energy to try and enforce that stuff in the workplace, as long as someone doesn’t get up my grill like this one co-worker did all “Are you or are you not a lady?!?!” (Apparently I was being unladylike… when I said no he got VERY confused and angry. Gladly he no longer works here.)

          3. Anonymousaurus Rex*

            This. I’m a cisgender lesbian with multiple trans/nonbinary/gender nonconforming friends–and though I know what all of their pronouns are, some of the less common ones are difficult for my hard-coded old brain to use fluently without stunted speech. I really WANT to not misgender anyone, and I really WANT to use the person’s preferred pronoun, but I’m a dolt at getting ae/aer to work as easily as they/them in my speech. So I work at it, and when it gets really hard I’ve gotten permission from friends to revert to the gender neutral they/them.

        2. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

          This this this.

          It reminds me a little bit of the idea that, for example, those who belong to conservative, evangelical religions feel their religious freedoms are being trampled upon because they aren’t allowed to push their religion on other people. Which … no.

          I’m not saying this to pile on the OP, or suggest that the OP is acting in any sort of bigoted malice, because I actually don’t think that is the case at all. I merely say it to underline that respect for other’s beliefs and identities goes both ways.

        3. Kj*

          Oh, so this! Well said. The OP is acting EXTREMELY poorly and if I were the manager in this situation, I’d have it out with the OP.

          I work with LGBTQIA teens at times and in gatherings it is not unusual for everyone to give their preferred pronouns at introductions. And everyone gets a preferred pronoun- even cis and straight participants. I have no problem with using the preferred pronouns of others, although I have to admit it can hurt my head to remember who uses they/theirs and who uses ze/zur at times, but I do my best and I expect that others will do their best to respect my pronouns as well.

          1. Matilda Jefferies (formerly JMegan)*

            Kj, I don’t know if you know about this, but you can get the standard “Hello, my name is [blank]” name tags with a space for preferred pronouns on them! Google “preferred pronouns name tags” for a bunch of different designs.

        4. Tuckerman*

          With singular “they,” is it acceptable to conjugate verbs to convey whether you’re using singular or plural they? For example, “Sarah is struggling with this topic. They is coming by later for help with the assignment. ” for one person? Or would you always conjugate it to be plural (“They are coming by later?”)

          1. Gadget Hackwrench*

            You conjugate the same as for plural. “They are coming by later for help.”

            1. Tuckerman*

              Is there a specific reason why, or is that just the standard? I’m totally on board with using “they,” but we run into confusion at work, not always knowing whether someone is talking about an individual or a group. For example, in the sentence “Sarah said she and her teammates are having trouble on the assignment. They are coming by later,” it’s unclear whether Sarah is coming alone or with their teammates.

              1. Fiennes*

                Better to use other clarifying language, IMO: “Since that team is having trouble with the assignment, Sarah is coming by later,” or “Since Sarah’s team is having trouble with the assignment, they’re all coming by later.”

                (And yes, I’m using “since” for causality but that particular fight is a lost cause.)

                2. Michael*

                  FWIW, so was Shakespeare:

                  “Since that my beautie cannot please his eie,
                  Ile weepe what’s left away.”

                3. zora*

                  or you can just repeat the name more frequently, it might sound awkward to us now, but we’ll get used to it.

                  “Sarah’s team is having trouble with that, so Sarah is coming by later.”

              2. Emily, admin extraordinaire*

                It’s similar to the singular “you” (originally, English used “thou/thee/thine” for singular). Technically there is a difference between singular “you” and plural “you”, but they’re both conjugated the same. We get around it by saying things like “you guys” or “ya’ll” to refer to the plural “you,” (which is funny since the singular was co-opted from the plural and now we’re having to find new ways to express the plural).

              3. Snork Maiden*

                If it helps, think of it as how we conjugate singular “you”. We say “You are” all the time without any confusion or difficulty, and paired with Fiennes’ suggestions below it’s like adjusting the sentence when you have two same gender subjects (ie. Sansa and Cersei dined in her private quarters” becomes “Cersei and Sansa dined in Sansa’s private quarters.”)

                1. Snork Maiden*

                  Oops, posted this before I saw Emily’s reply. I wonder if there are any misguided prescriptivists out there insisting on “you is”, ha.

        5. JanetM*

          I didn’t know that, so thank you. I’ll update my usage.

          I started using zie/zir back in the day on Usenet, where it was common in the newsgroups I hung out in, because that made it easier to talk about both theory and specific actual situations without necessarily gendering or identifying the hypothetical subjects or the actual participants. I do respect people’s identities and identifiers, and certainly if someone tells me what pronouns they prefer (I’m seeing it more and more in people’s email signatures, and I’ve attended meetings where the introduction go-around includes which pronouns the person uses) I use them.

          1. Big10Professor*

            The other option is to just use people’s names, and not even worry about pronouns.

        6. MI Dawn*

          Can I just say I love your comment? I will happily respect what you want to be called (him/xe/they/her) as long as you return the respect and call me she/her.

        7. Jessie the First (or second)*

          “The bottom line is simple: people have a right to be addressed by whatever pronouns they identify with, not whatever pronouns are dictated by someone else’s politics.”

          I love this. Thanks.

          Also a great explanation of gender neutral vs non-binary, a big, big distinction OP has somehow not understood.

          1. Anion*

            Politics shouldn’t enter into it at all. My personal beliefs regarding trans people are a bit different from those of the people who’ve commented so far, but if someone asks or tells me to call him/her “she/he,” I do it, because it’s polite.

            I don’t have to agree with what you want to be called in order to call you that. You’ve told me to call you Bob and refer to you as “he/him,” (or ze/zir or whatever the variants are) so that’s what I do. It doesn’t require me to express an opinion. It doesn’t require me to think at all, frankly; I wouldn’t call Joe “Jane” anymore than I would call my mother “Aunt Sharon.” (Note for clarity: Joe in that example is a man born male whose name is Joe.) My personal feelings and beliefs in the matter are irrelevant, and nobody’s business.

            It’s similar for me when people ask me about my “partner.” I tell them (cheerfully) that I do not have a partner, I have a husband. If they keep referring to my husband as my “partner,” I keep reminding them. I’d start getting pretty annoyed if after a few weeks of this they continued to verbally erase my marriage, especially if they’re doing it because they themselves are unmarried so think everyone should be, or something, which seems to be the OP’s feeling here.

            1. Hey Nonnie*

              Exactly. Whatever a person wants to be called, call them that — it’s not hard. If someone says “Hello, I’m Michael” or “Hello, I’m Michelle,” it’s RUDE to respond with “Hey Mikey / Shelly, nice to meet you.” If they wanted to be called Mikey / Shelly, trust that they would have said that when they introduced themselves.

              We all have the right to choose how we want others to address us. Deliberately refusing to use that preferred form of address makes you a jerk.

        8. AMPG*

          I just want to say thanks very much for the gender neutral/nonbinary clarification. I’m really trying to work on allyship around trans issues, and I know I still have a lot of learning to do especially about the issues nonbinary and genderfluid people face.

          1. Jadelyn*

            I just said this below, but I’ll reiterate here – there are NB people who use singular they as a nonbinary pronouns, so please make sure you respect that when you come across us “in the wild”, as it were. They/them is gender neutral but it can also be NB as well.

            1. AMPG*

              Thanks; I do know at least one semi-out non-binary person who prefers “they,” so I was aware that it can be used that way. But I’ve used zie as a gender-neutral pronoun before, under the assumption that it was interchangeable with they.

        9. Jadelyn*

          Minor quibble – there are many people, myself included, who use “they/them” as nonbinary pronouns. The delineation between NB pronouns ze, hir, etc. and “gender neutral” singular they is not as bright and clear as it sounds like you’re making it here.

        10. Marvel*

          Eh. I would feel misgendered if someone used “they.” (I am trans.) “Neutral” IS a gender, and there is really no pronoun you can use that won’t misgender some people–in my opinion, it really is best to just go with what seems to match their outward presentation and adjust if they ask you to. But I’m aware that I am probably in the minority on that stance.

          1. Jamie*

            I’ll join you in that stance. I think most people refer to a person by the gender that person outwardly presents.

        11. General Ginger*

          I’m a trans guy and I generally tend to use they/them for most people if I don’t know how they identify. However, once they (or someone who knows their pronouns) say, “oh, actually, I’d prefer you use pronoun,” I would be an ass to continue using they/them.

    2. LisaLee*

      Also, some non-binary people do try to pass as cisgender at work and do not want the scrutiny that being referred to by neutral pronouns invites. There are many reasons why a person might prefer one pronoun or another and it’s not up to the OP to dictate what is the best form of address.

      Really, the best thing to do would be to outright ask people what pronouns they use and stick to it.

    3. Artemesia*

      Gender neutral pronouns are not commonly accepted or even known by most and to force people who use gendered pronouns to conform to your preference is pretty annoying. It is reasonable to expect others to refer to you as you wish; do them the same favor.

      I always thought ‘bloody’ was a more offensive and powerful expression in the UK than most Americans assume. But it is a special pretentious twist for an American to adopt it.

      1. seejay*

        [i]It is reasonable to expect others to refer to you as you wish; do them the same favor.[/i]

        This. She’s doing the respectable thing by using the pronouns you prefer, give her the same respect in return. Just because you (the OP) prefers gender-neutral doesn’t mean that others want to be referred to by them in return. What if she insisted that she use a gender-specific pronoun for you for whatever gender she thought you presented as? I’d bet you’d be peeved off (and rightly so).

        Just because she’s cisgendered doesn’t mean she deserves less respect than anyone else in regards to pronoun preference, neutral or not.

      2. Fiennes*

        I don’t think it’s always pretentious. People may have lived in the U.K. at some point, may have an English parents, etc. Especially with younger people, who’ve grown up with much more exposure to British tv than prior generations (not to mention the influence of Harry Potter!), some Britishisms are gaining more traction over here. Certainly 20 years ago I never heard Americans refer to a vacation as a “holiday,” but now sometimes I do. The linguistic divide just isn’t as broad as it used to be.

        1. KarenT*

          My mind went to Harry Potter too. It can’t be that bad if it’s used in a British children’s series!

          1. Elle*

            Generally speaking, we have more swearing in the UK than you do in the US, and bloody hell is probably the worst you can get away with in a YA book. It is ruder than level and location of use suggests to American. However, it isn’t appallingly rude – I would use it in front of my boss but not in front of a client – but it is definitely sufficiently so that your grandmother or teacher might object.

            Bloody is a strengthening modifier – ‘hell’ on its own is fairly mild – “oh hell, not this again”, and probably closer to the American use of ‘damn’.

            Also, more than issues of swearing, most Americans use it wrong, which is probably more offensive to most Brits than it being used at all.

            1. fposte*

              You can absolutely get away with more than “bloody hell” in a UK British YA book. There is plenty of the-f-word-that-gets-this-sent-to-moderation in British YA.

              1. LawBee*

                I always had this vague idea that in England, The Mother of All Swears isn’t actually that bad.

                1. fposte*

                  Swearing overall gets more of a pass there, I think; you can even say that one and the c word on television there (after the watershed, but still), which is pretty unthinkable in the U.S.

                2. Exponential Vee*

                  Mother of All Swears as in ‘f’? It is that bad, and we still use it. But it is out-ranked by ‘c’.

                3. Noobtastic*

                  When talking about “the c word” in UK, I’m afraid you’ll have to specify which c word.

                  Is it c–t? Or is it c-w? Because my Scottish friend told me that c-w was THE ABSOLUTE WORST, EVER! Children who had no problems dropping f-bombs all over the place would spell out the c-w word, unless referring to a literal bovine animal.

                  So, when I hear an American calling someone a c-w, my mind always puts it in a Scottish accent, in shocked tones and a little girl’s treble voice. Which always makes me laugh. Kind of ruins the effect the speaker was going for, actually.

          3. AvonLady Barksdale*

            Many, many years ago, when I was a teenager (pre-Harry Potter, so a loooong time ago!), my mom and I went to visit the Tower of London. There’s a part there called “The Bloody Tower”. We passed a bunch of schoolboys who kept shrieking with glee– “The bloody tower!!! It’s a bloody tower!”– and all their teachers were shushing and scolding them, and only then did I realize that “bloody” is considered rude. UK “rude”, as in coarse or vulgar, as opposed to US “rude”, as in impolite.

            Bloody hilarious, that was.

              1. PlainJane*

                One of my friends used to give tours at Grand Coulee Dam. She made the same joke and also referred to “dam tourists” regularly (along with: “If it’s tourist season, why can’t we shoot them?”). Yes, she was kidding and is one of the kindest people I know–which made it pretty hilarious.

                Then there’s this one: “What did the fish say when it ran into a wall?”
                “Damn.”

                OK, I’ll stop the damn jokes and get back to work.

                1. Thlayli*

                  Joseph O’Connor once wrote a hilarious story about a visit to Disneyland with a group of Irish men.

                  “Ride” is Irish slang for sex and “mickey” is Irish slang for penis.

                  It was a very funny article.

            2. CheeryO*

              We had “bloody” as a vocabulary word when I was in 3rd or 4th grade (U.S., late 90s). I instantly thought of Harry Potter, and when the teacher asked if anyone knew what it meant, my little hand SHOT up and I said, “Like… bad? REALLY bad?” I was really embarrassed when she said, “Uhhh… no.” I tried!

            3. Noobtastic*

              My father spent some of his youth in England, and picked up a few words and phrases. When he’d tell stories about that time, he sort of shifted a bit into a slightly more English accent, which varied, according to which story he was telling (he moved a few times, during his years in England, so his accent could go from London Cockney to But-I-Only-Speak-English Welsh).

              Anyway, one day, I remember he told us a story that involved someone calling a woman “fanny.” He explained that fanny, in the UK, means a woman’s vagina. Well, no, he didn’t. He talked around and around it, until I finally pieced together that word he would not speak aloud, because he was old-fashioned, and could not actually speak about a woman’s genitals to his own pre-teen daughter, and as far as he knew I was not even aware of having one, myself.

              I think it was the way he talked around and around it that made that particular word stick in my mind, for years. Apparently, calling a woman “fanny,” was just soooooo bad, that my father couldn’t even come out and say, clearly and directly, what it actually meant! And he made it clear that it was the worst thing you could call a woman.

              Imagine, then, my consternation upon picking up Jane Austen’s novel, “Mansfield Park,” and finding that the heroine’s name was Fanny Price.

              “I thought you said this was a comedy of manners! These people are just RUDE! Who names their daughter THAT?!”

              1. Simonthegreywarden*

                Yeah… For the movie version of that it is changed to Phoebe, I think… Or at least in one of her stories, a Fanny is changed to Phoebe.

              2. Violet Rose*

                I had a boss who used the phrase “fannying about” in place of “messing about”, and something about it always set my teeth on edge. In hindsight, that was one of the LESS objectionable things he said!

          4. Emi.*

            Yeah, Harry Potter gave me a really warped sense of English profanity, until my mother told me off. I think Americans pick up “bloody” because it fits a useful linguistic niche–it has the same meter as “f—ing” but it’s (apparently?) less offensive. “Goddamn” doesn’t really pick up the the slack, because it’s stressed on both syllables, so “goddamn annoying” doesn’t roll off the tongue as nicely as “bloody annoying” (and some people are more okay with profanity than with oath-taking anyway).

            1. TootsNYC*

              My husband uses “blasted” and “blast” for that very reason–it’s an emphasizer, but it’s not the F-word.

              1. Noobtastic*

                Or bloomin’. But you have to be careful to drop the g. Blooming is beautiful. Bloomin’, on the other hand, is pretty gosh darned bad!

        2. Artemesia*

          But people who have lived in the UK are aware of how it is used in the UK and would not be sprinkling it around the US workplace.

          1. Cristina in England*

            Not necessarily. In my experience picking up on the subtleties of swearing in another language or culture takes a loooong time. Usually the result is just as in the letter: people using much stronger curse words than intended.

            1. Someone*

              Oh, YES. It took me some time to realize that “damn” is a harsher swearword than the German translation “verdammt”. “Verdammt” is a pretty mild swearword and I use it a lot without thinking about it – in German as in English, because I’m so very used to it and anyway that’s the actual translation, right?
              Generally I would say that my language is pretty innocent but native English speakers might come to a different conclusion if I don’t pay attention.

              That goes both ways, of course.

              1. Violet Rose*

                I’m a bit late to this thread, but that reminded me: I was watching a German kid’s show in which the main character is known for saying “mist” a lot, and it’s usually translated as “crap” – which you can NOT say on kid’s TV in America!

                Back to the topic at hand, I lived in the U.K. for 3 years and would say ‘bloody’ in front of my boss (who said far worse himself ;) ), but not in front of the nine-year-old I tutored.

                1. Someone*

                  Alright… I honestly wouldn’t have expected that one day I might google the definition of “crap”.
                  But at least it validated my initial feeling that “crap” is not quite the right translation for “Mist”. “Mist” is more like… dung, or manure. Basically it’s animal excrement mixed with straw.

                  And it’s indeed a very mild, harmless swearword.

                2. Violet Rose*

                  Huh, learned something new today – thank you! I’ve been wondering ever since my partner introduced me to that show (which I think he now regrets, as I took to it far more than he ever did!)

        3. Jo*

          I live and work outside the UK and US but interact regularly with a lot of Brits so I’ve started picking up and using some British slang, thanks to them. Despite this, I hadn’t realized that ‘bloody’ has a much stronger meaning than I realized. I’ll have to ask my friends — we have a lot of “what did you just say? But what does that mean? That makes no sense” conversations, lol.

          Also, accents: good lord the accents. So varied, so heavy, and apparently accents convey so much more in the UK than in the US. Much, much more than simple region of origin.

          1. Jo*

            Although now that I think about it, a lot of my friends are ex-British Army/Royal Marines, so that might explain the swearing. For them, “bloody” is usually the milder version of what they want to say. When they even bother with the milder version :P

            1. RobM*

              Most of the squaddies I know of use swearing in their sentences as an alternative to a comma.

              2. Lablizard*

                I just snorted my coffee out my nose. I think they might also use it for semicolons in casual conversation, if the handful of ex-British military I have met are anything to go by.

              3. Not that Anne, the other Anne*

                Similar to the dry statement that among GIs in WWII, the f word only indicated a noun was arriving shortly.

        4. Elizabeth West*

          Recent immersive trips to the UK and writing a book where a main character is British have permanently embedded a smattering of Britishisms into my vocabulary. I regret nothing and make no apologies. In music school, I also adopted the way my German voice teacher made her sevens; I can’t write them without a line through them now or they look weird to me.

          I’m also the person who tends to pick up accents and speech patterns if I’m around them frequently, though I’ve fought hard not to end up with a Midwestern twang. When I first moved to CA, people told me they couldn’t tell where I was from (after I stopped saying pop instead of soda). Good!

      3. sssssssssss*

        Well, I do like to learn new things and these gender neutral pronouns are my new thing for today. I feel like I can barely keep up as it is with the new (new to me!) spectrum of gender and sexuality.

        Where the OP is working must be a very progressive place. Even where I work now, which is very progressive (in theory – I work for a large national union that is on paper pro-everything (slightly exaggerated)), I do know that many of my coworkers would have a hard time wrapping their heads around being called “zie/hir” when they currently have a hard time handling the no-scent policy.

        To be honest, considering my own background and where I live/work, if I heard “zie”, which I assume is pronounced “zee” I would start thinking that someone was being funny and trying to talk like a Frenchman who can’t pronounced “the”…

        How does one say “mx”?

        1. Drew*

          When I’ve heard it said (rarely), it’s been like “mix,” maybe with a slightly swallowed vowel.

        2. Antilles*

          How does one say “mx”?
          I’d never heard anyone say it either, so I looked it up. My initial guess was “mex” (rhymes with hex”). Per Wikipedia and a couple of linked sources, it seems like there’s no standard pronunciation – some common ones are “mex”, “mix” (like the cooking term), “mucks” (like a plural of the word muck) or saying the letters “M-X” separately.
          Also, like 30% of people don’t know how to pronounce it, so you and I apparently have plenty of company.

          1. Junior Dev*

            Makes sense, because that’s the same vowel sound that starts “Mister,” “Miss,” “Misses,” and “Miz.”

          2. Markethill*

            I use it and like it pronounced “mix-ter”. That’s the only way I’ve heard it said IRL, so maybe it’s regional? (I’m in Western Canada.)

            Also, as another datapoint, I’m a nonbinary fem(me) and my pronouns are she/her and they/them. I think I would be more comfortable getting he/him than xe/hir, personally, and would be very uncomfortable with anyone insisting on xe/hir for me after having been corrected. I’m pretty laid back about pronouns, but those ones just really aren’t my thing.

        4. k*

          I’m learning a lot of pronouns today! Apparently I’m much less informed than I thought I was. Does anyone know of a good resource that has a fairly comprehensive list of pronouns with pronunciations, usages, etc?

        5. Dorothy Mantooth*

          I just Ctrl + F with “pronounce” to see if anyone already asked this – because I have seen the words in their written form, but have never heard anyone say them. Which could be why many people are comfortable defaulting to “they” instead, because they don’t want to be embarrassed about mispronouncing the words.

          1. Anion*

            This is OT, but “Dorothy Mantooth” is my username on a couple of other forums, and I keep getting confused when I see your comments, lol, and wondering when I said that. :-)

            (Obviously not saying you need to change it or anything, it’s just funny.)

            We’re a saint, you know.

      4. Bonky*

        Bloody’s absolutely fine where I live and work in the UK; neither I, nor anyone I work with, would bat an eyelid. I have heard politicians, priests and teachers use it with total impunity. The only situation I can think of where it might be frowned upon would be if my little daughter said it to my very strait-laced, 70-year-old mother. And then the frowning would only be very mild. (Also, my daughter can’t talk yet, so it’d also be very exciting.)

        1. Noobtastic*

          When my nephew first used the word “damned” correctly, his grandmother was ecstatic and proud, while his mother was horrified.

          “Yes, honey, I know he used a swear word, and you want to wash his mouth out with soap, but remember, he used it correctly! He got the grammar right, and everything!”

          That can’t have confused the poor little kid at all. Nope.

          Now I come to think of it, his grandparents took pride in teaching him several things that horrified his mother. How he ever managed to come out as a civilized adult, I’ll never know.

      5. paul*

        Bloody isnt’ that uncommon here TBH. We get enough Britishisms from music and tv that I think calling it pretentious is a hell of a stretch.

    4. Charlie Q*

      Just to add another voice, I’m hella nonbinary and I use she/her pronouns. They’re my pronouns, and they suit me, so I’d be real uncomfortable with someone insisting I use other pronouns.

      I think it’s always good practice to use they/them when talking about strangers or folks who haven’t specified their pronouns (whether they look cis or binary or not), but once you know someone’s pronouns, whatever they are, use them.

      1. Gen*

        Just to add another voice, I’m non-binary and use they/them but I’d be really uncomfortable with insisting on using those pronouns for someone else who has already clearly stated their preference. I certainly wouldn’t escalate about their personal pronouns

      2. Turanga Leela*

        Interesting. I never use they/them (or other gender-neutral pronouns, for that matter) unless people tell me that they prefer neutral pronouns. When I meet people, I follow clues in their clothing, grooming, and names to guess whether they use he/him or she/her. If I can’t tell, I avoid pronouns until the person makes it clear.

        I work in a pretty conservative field, and I suspect a lot of people I work with would be uncomfortable if I used they/them about them initially. You’ve got me thinking about this, though. Any particular tips on navigating this in an environment where gender-neutral pronouns would really stand out? (Again, if an individual requests gender-neutral pronouns, I’m happy to use them. This is just about how to proceed when I don’t yet know the person’s gender identity.)

        1. Charlie Q*

          So this is a really good practice to get used to socially at first. If you’re telling a story about a stranger you ran across, use they/them to refer to the person, even if visual cues indicate otherwise. It can be hard in a workplace, especially a conservative one, but you can sorta do something similar. “I was talking with Jess and they recommended I talk to you about X.”

          But I tend to encourage it mostly socially and with kids, just to get practice not gendering people based on their presentation.

          1. JustAnotherNonProfitManager*

            This! I play roller derby which as one of the few sports totally on board with any/all/no gender identity at every level of competetion (depending on ruleset – the version I play is Women’s flat track and the stipulation is that it’s the version of the game you most closely identify with – so mostly not-male) and therefore I have a lot of contact with trans, non-binary and agender folks. Strangely (and it might be a UK thing) I don’t know anyone who uses anything other than he/she/they as their primary pronoun.

            As a result I’m pretty comfortable asking people what pronouns they prefer and am getting better practiced at using “they/them” when talking about people I don’t know. On the flip side if I’ve told someone I use she/her then I’ll be hella annoyed if they persistently and deliberately misgender me by using they/them because it’s not about their preference and will tell them this. Occasional unconscious slip ups aren’t the same because those sometimes just happen – like calling my (I assume) cis female ceo he for an entire sentence the other day because my brain wasn’t working.

            TL:DR – use the pronouns people request – they are their’s not yours.

            1. Arjay*

              I think I’m just having a bad day, but I wonder if some of my coworkers know what pronouns are. I’d ask them what pronouns they prefer and they most likely say, “Huh?”

        2. Elemeno P.*

          I also follow context clues, and it’s okay to ask for preferred pronouns if you can’t tell. It feels awkward to do (I felt like I was committing some major faux pas the first time I asked), but the people I’ve asked have always been fine answering and happy that I respected their identity.

        3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          I tend to name my pronouns (in my email signature, when going around a table at a meeting and introducing myself, etc.), which typically causes folks to either identify the pronouns they want to use, or ask what that means or why I did it.

              1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                I also look forward to the day this is standard. It is such a simple adjustment that lifts a burden from folks who are already walking through fire.

                My organization started a good conversation about improving our inclusivity with regards to gender identity, but it seems to have stalled. This post is a good reminder to me to go stick my nose into it and see if we can make some progress.

                1. Noobtastic*

                  I look forward to the day when English, as a language, stops shifting in this regard, and we get some standardization, once more, in pronouns.

                  So, a standard (I don’t know this person’s gender) pronoun set,
                  standard presents-as-cis-male
                  standard presents-as-cis-female
                  standard presents-as-non-binary
                  standard presents-as-third-gender
                  standard presents-as-neutral-gender
                  standard presents-as-agendered
                  with possibly a pronoun set for “other.”

                  I don’t mind learning the grammar for that many pronoun sets, if they are standard, and have clearly delineated meanings upon which everyone who speaks the language agrees. What we have right now, though, is such a hodgepodge that you wind up having to learn about twenty-five different pronoun sets to cover all the various spellings and preferences in your social/work/church/family circles. I’m all for having a sufficient variety to cover all the bases, but I do wish we could get some standardization in place. All the questions about “how do you spell this,” or “how do you pronounce that” would be handled in elementary school.

          2. Elemeno P.*

            This is nice! I saw this for the first time at a volunteer orientation. Most people either said their pronouns or didn’t, no problem, but one woman said, “I’m a woman, OBVIOUSLY.” She was a bit older, though, so I imagine that that reaction will be less common in time.

        4. Noobtastic*

          Yeah, when can you just come out and ask, “What are your pronouns, please?” It seems uncomfortable to just put it right in the opening introduction, unless you’re doing some sort of round-the-room introduction that includes name, pronouns, job title and department, and three interesting tidbits about you.

          But then again, it seems like it should certainly not wait until the third date, or the sixth project meeting, or anything like that.

          On the other hand, how awkward is it to just announce your pronouns upon first meeting someone? And if they have been calling you “they,” or actively avoiding using pronouns in reference to you, does it make it even more awkward to say, “Actually, I prefer…” or less?

          I’m cis-gendered, and recognize my privilege in that I never had to consider this for myself before. Now I think about it, though, if someone told me that I had to answer to non-binary OR neutral gendered pronouns, even after making my gender identity and pronoun preferences clear, I would be livid. Not because I’m a bigot, but because it IS misgendering, and yeah, that hurts. It especially hurts for a person who has, many times in the course of her life, been told that she is a failure as a woman, or else been specifically excluded from “all the women” when women in the group were discussed. “So what am I? Chopped liver?” Yeah, I want my she/her/hers pronouns, please. But thanks to my large bosom, I’ve never felt the need to actually point them out or demand them, before. (And yes, I do now know that men can sometimes have large bosoms. But I have never been mistaken for a man, even when I was “one of the guys,” among my group of male friends. I was “the one who lives in the women’s dorm,” and “the one who has to be walked home at night, since that serial rapist escaped from the penitentiary and was sighted in our area” and at the same time, when discussing women, I was always the one that “didn’t count,” or “that doesn’t apply to you.”)

          I think OP’s coworker has every right to be upset, and is probably shocked a great deal by the whole thing. And if she was not bigoted against non-binary people before, I’m afraid that this might be setting her up to develop a bit of bigotry, especially if OP is the first *out* NB person she has met. We often form our opinion of groups based on the first relationship we form with a known member of that group.

          OP, please drop your complaint and call your coworker by her preferred pronouns, just as she calls you by yours.

          1. Sam*

            “And if she was not bigoted against non-binary people before, I’m afraid that this might be setting her up to develop a bit of bigotry, especially if OP is the first *out* NB person she has met. We often form our opinion of groups based on the first relationship we form with a known member of that group.”

            I’m glad I’m not the only one to think this. I made the same point in a comment upthread, that their hostile behavior may very well result in turning the rest of the workplace against NB people and pretty much ruin future opportunity employments for NB people.

            Of course it’s not fair to judge an entire group of people based on the actions of one person within that group, but non-binary people are a rather small minority to begin with and visibility within that group is still relatively rare. OP needs to take into account that they will be the first of their kind to most cisgender people they come across, and they would do well to not behave so selfishly that they make their fellow community members’ lives extra hard because they have fulfilled negative stereotypes about non binary folks.

    5. Artimis*

      OP#3, you say that this person is “not cool” with you being non-binary, but I’m curious whether she’s done anything other than requesting that you refer to her with she/her pronouns. If the only thing she’s done is request that you use her preferred pronouns, while she correctly uses your non-binary pronouns, you might consider that her concern is not about your non-binary identity but the issue that by not using her preferred pronouns you are not respecting her identity as female (or at least a person who prefers she/her pronouns).

      If she has done other things that idicate a bias against non-binary people, then depending on your workplace you might want to focus on those. But if she hasn’t, you might consider that your colleague is asserting her gender identity in a similar way that you assert yours, and that mutual respect for the other’s preferred pronouns can help you both work together.

      Using gender neutral pronouns can be a respectful way of letting people make their own self-identifications of gender without outside assumptions, but once those self-identifications have been made, continuing to use pronouns that a person has specifically requested not be used can negate the very idea of gender self-identification.

      1. Mazzy*

        My issue here is complaining to management. OP you are new to he work world. You can only complain to your boss about your coworkers so many times before you get labeled as not a team player and then he credibility of your complaints goes down to zero. I’d really save my complaining for bigger problems – coworker dumping their job on you, catching huge mistakes, a juicy customer complaint, coworker drinking at work when boss isn’t around – things are going to happen that are bigger deals you’ll need to complain about

        1. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

          Have to agree with you on this. Pick your battles. Your credibility is your currency in your work. Like the boy who cried wolf, your boss is going to stop listening after a while.

      2. RJ47*

        That also jumped out to me, whether or not the coworker has done anything to indicate she’s against OP being non-binary other than not wanting nonbinary pronouns for herself.

        I’m a queer lady and my partner is AFAB and for the last few years has identified as genderqueer, though they’re starting to explore whether or not they want to start using male pronouns and identifying as male. They’re doing a lot of soul-searching right now and at times feel very uncomfortable in their own skin. I’m a cis woman who has never questioned my gender so I can’t relate to what they’re going through, but hearing them talk about it and the way they’re trying to explain it, they’re clearly struggling to fully understand their gender and it’s very hard for them to not really know. (On a side tangent it drives me bananas when people say that gender identity isn’t a real thing, just because they’ve never had to question their own. NOBODY would just “choose” to go through the struggle people like my partner have to go through and all that emotional energy just for the heck of it.)

        Anyway, yeah, if they do decide they want to live as male and made the active choice to stop using gender neutral pronouns, and someone tried to imply they were against non-binary people because of it, and insisted on using gender neutral pronouns anyway? That would be so triggering and hard for them to deal with, I can’t even imagine. And to then have someone ask them to out themself and confronted them point blank to ask if they were trans?? I can feel my blood rushing in anger just picturing that.

        But aside from that even, my gender is very important to me. I’m a woman. I’ve faced struggles that came directly because I was a woman. I’ve spent a lot of time in my life fighting back against things that were only happening because I’m a woman and fighting for other women. If people use gender-neutral pronouns in general or before they know the gender preferences of people they know, I don’t care. But if I have a conversation with someone where they tell me they use non-binary pronouns, and I say I use female, and they tell me, “No, I’m only using my favorite pronouns for you,” I am absolutely going to be offended by that. And then you want to say it’s because I don’t support non-binary people? Get outta here. There’s a degree of misogyny there almost, like OP is sort of (unintentionally, I’m sure, but still) implying that wanting to be a woman and referred to as a woman is somehow wrong or not socially progressive, which is insulting.

        1. turquoisecow*

          Same here. I respect others’ pronouns, and will call you whatever you want to be called, but I’m female, I identify as a woman, and I’m damn proud of being a woman. I’m sure the OP would do the same to a persistent male coworker, but it does seem kind of unintentionally misogynistic here.

          Also, if I were a man, I’d be equally annoyed. I wonder if the rest of the coworkers are just like “whatever” and doing their best to avoid the OP…

    6. Tempest*

      I have transitioned and transitioning customers who have been close enough with me to share that journey and I call them the pronouns they ask me to call them. I make it a point not to misgender them after I’ve been told which to use even if I have to think about it before I open my mouth each time to be sure I’m getting it right. I respect them all for their courage to go on such a life changing and challenging journey to be themselves and hopefully finally find happiness in who they are.

      But I think calling a person who has identified themselves as female pronouns to you by the gender neutral ones against her will is a massive overstep and pretty much as offensive as someone insisting on calling you by the ones that fit your physical appearance. You don’t like being called him/her and have told your work you prefer hir ect. As you’re not complaining about being misgendered I assume they are for the most part honouring your wishes. I too would absolutely honour that for you even if it felt awkward for me. But you then don’t get to tell me that I have to accept hir because it’s neutral when I’ve told you I am a she/her. I think the whole point is that everyone is comfortable and comfortably adequately identified by the pronouns they prefer. Your colleague has told you that anything but she/her makes her uncomfortable. Stop doing that and use the pronouns she asked you to, same as you would like her to make you comfortable and use hir as per your request.

      It’s just called respect and it’s a two way street.

    7. paul*

      Yep. Calling someone who prefers a binary pronoun by said pronoun is no more anti-non binary people than me having a heterosexual relationship is anti-homosexual.

    8. Whats In A Name*

      I went to a conference once years ago – 2002-2003ish – and one thing that I still remember from that conference is the concept of the PLATINUM RULE. Treat others as they want to be treated – to me this applies here. The co-worker has asked to be referred to as the gender she identifies with (which happens to be her biological one) so the OP should respect that.

    9. Thinking Outside the Boss*

      OP, rather than escalate this situation or go to HR, why not ditch the use of a third person pronoun altogether? It only comes into play when talking to someone about someone else: “Hey Fergus, Connie is looking a little down today. Is Connie okay?” Using someone’s name is respectful and avoids this entire situation. And you’d never use a third person pronoun when speaking to Connie directly.

      1. VicCatLady*

        “…why not ditch the use of a third person pronoun altogether? It only comes into play when talking to someone about someone else….”

        Yes! I’ve been wondering throughout this discussion how often someone would use any pronoun other than “you” when talking directly to a person. Thanks for bringing this up.

    10. Themiscyra*

      Agreed. I can understand the intent, but once someone has told you their preferred pronouns, you should use them when referring specifically to that person. It’s fine to use neutral pronouns when referring to a hypothetical person of any gender. It’s fine, if perhaps a bit unusual, to use neutral pronouns when first meeting someone, or to ask their preferred pronouns upfront. But once a person makes their pronouns clear, you should use those.

      I’m trans myself and identify very strongly as female. I use the she/her/hers pronouns exclusively. I would be very upset if someone insisted on using neutral pronouns to refer to me, even after I corrected them or asked them to stop, and particularly based on the assumption that I’m trans. To do so would feel like a slap in the face and a severe act of disrespect toward my personal identity. I have nothing against non-binary people whatsoever. I will happily use whatever pronouns anyone likes. But I ask that the same courtesy be extended to me. The person in question has told you what she prefers. I don’t know if she has been hostile to you in separate incidents, but a request to use she/her/hers pronouns in reference to her is not out of line and not in and of itself a sign of hostility, particularly if she uses your preferred pronouns in reference to you. If there HAVE been other incidents which make you feel she does not respect your identity, you have every right to feel uncomfortable and should relate those to HR. But this one is simply a matter of respect, and since she has told you how she identifies and which pronouns she wishes to use, you should respect her wishes.

    11. Gene*

      One of the things I like about Science Fiction conventions is that there is usually a table next to Registration with stacks of ribbons for your badges that usually say something like “I prefer They/Tem/Us” with several different variations for what one’s preferred pronouns are. It’s considered bad form to not use the preferred pronouns, no matter what your personal preference is.

    12. toomanybooks*

      Yes. Refusing to use someone’s preferred pronouns is literally what misgendering is. This woman IDs as a woman and prefers to be addressed with the pronouns “she/her.” She doesn’t ID as gender neutral and doesn’t feel comfortable with this pronouns. (I’m in the queer community and have spent a loooooot of time with stuff like this.) Asking her if she’s trans is also not appropriate to do, especially in an office setting. And even if she is trans, it’s honestly worse to refuse to use her preferred “she/her” pronouns and insist on gender neutral ones.

      I can see a situation where #3 feels it’s important to use neutral pronouns before learning of someone’s specific gender identity and preferred pronouns instead of assuming “him” or “her.” But what OP seems to be doing is deliberately disregarding everyone’s gender identity and preferred pronouns. I imagine that’s the opposite intention OP had and OP needs to take a look at this and rethink things.

  3. Gaia*

    OP 3, I understand you believe you are in the right because technically gender neutral cannot be “misgendering” but I’m going to tell you that I would feel misgendered if you used gender neutral terms for me. And I wouldn’t be offended, at first. But after I asked you to use female gender pronouns and you insisted you weren’t wrong and insisted on using what you felt was appropriate? Yeah, I’d be pretty livid. Just as you have the right to be referred to by pronouns that make you comfortable and are correct for you, so does everyone else. Your coworker has made herself clear – use the pronouns she has requested.

    1. Leah*

      Also, I think some jurisdictions (IANAL) have rules saying that misgendering people counts as harassment. OP could get in some trouble with HR if they went that route.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        You’re right—in some states and D.C., purposely misgendering a person (which is what OP is doing) has been recognized as a form of harassment on the basis of either real or perceived gender or LGBT identity.

    2. Rey*

      I agree. In a way, this is the flip side of the argument against using they, them and their as gender-neutral pronouns because they aren’t grammatically correct.

      OP #3, you have an individual who has told you directly what their personal pronouns are, and you are refusing to use them. You are valuing your opinions over her gender expression. That’s not cool.

          1. Dizzy Steinway*

            We use they and them in all our communications at work, internal and external, now I think of it.

          2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            I was going to say this! They/them has been moving towards inclusion as a form of grammatically acceptable, gender-neutral terms for the singular pronoun. A few years ago, some federal courts started using “they” as a gender-neutral singular pronoun in their opinions, and they’d drop a footnote explaining why.

            Language is kind of amazing.

                1. Beancounter Eric*

                  “Who am I to disagree?”….. I’m going to have this song in my head all day…..well, at least it’s a good one!

              2. Mephyle*

                The Language Log blog has a post (Sept. 13, 2006) on the use of singular ‘they’ in the King James Bible, which inspires a mug with the following inscription:
                Singular ‘they’:
                God said it,
                I believe it,
                that settles it.
                =======
                The Language Loggers come down (semi-humourously) against the mug, because it suggests divine prescriptionist grammar, but who wouldn’t want that mug!

          3. Artemesia*

            The grammar error is less offensive than the universal ‘he’ to refer to people or unknowns — so although I dislike many of our grammar slips, this one works for me.

          4. Jessica*

            And many thanks to the AP, the Chicago Manual of Style, and the Economist Style Guide and all who sail on them – they all now “allow” what spoken English has been practicing for centuries in the interests of clear expression.

            1. a different Vicki*

              A recent blog post from Chicago Manual of Style says that the new edition will accept “they” as a nongendered singular, but will still prefer “he or she” to “they” as a pronoun for an unspecified person (“check with the bus driver, he or she can tell you where to change buses”).

          5. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

            Ahhh, I didn’t realize that had (FINALLY) changed. This is good news!
            (Now I’m going to go check on Fireman/Firefighter, as that one always got under my skin!)

            1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

              … and that’s changed too. GOOD. I’ve been out of it longer than I realized.
              (Now it’s time to get them to start using the Oxford Comma, and we’ll be SET.)

              1. HisGirlFriday*

                Oh, that’s a pipe dream of mine. Ten years in journalism and I clung to my Oxford comma like it was the only thing separating us from the savages, and my editors always removed it.

                1. Noobtastic*

                  The Oxford comma isn’t always necessary, but it some lists, it makes a HUGE difference. I prefer to play it safe and keep the comma.

                  And since it is never technically incorrect to use the Oxford comma, any editor who removes my Oxford comma will have to pry it from my cold, unplugged keyboard!

            2. Kathleen Adams*

              “Firefighter” has been the preferred form in AP for a very long time – at least 30 years, and probably more. I’ve been following AP for 30 or more years, and “firefighter” has always been the preferred option, I think.

          6. Elizabeth West*

            This makes my eye twitch, but I’m getting used to it gradually. It’s just breaking an old habit that’s tough. I’ve wished for years that English had a gender-neutral singular pronoun; using the plural bugs me.

        2. Rey*

          That’s great! In case it wasn’t clear–I am very much in favor of they/them as gender-neutral pronouns and am happy to use them.

      2. Jeff A.*

        Very not cool. I’d be irritated the same way I would be if a co-worker insisted on calling me “Jeffrey” instead of “Jeff” after I’d asked multiple times not to refer to me by my full name. Sure, “Jeffrey” is technically my legal name and “correct,” but you’re just being a jerk if you ignore that and insist on using a label that I’ve explicitly asked you not to use because you’ve decided your opinion is more important than mine.

    3. Sami*

      OP3- You mention be discomforted. Imagine if your coworker called you she or him? That’s the same thing you’re doing to her. Leave her alone- meaning calling her what she has REQUESTED you to do.

      1. Kay J*

        I don’t disagree that this OP is extremely misguided and needs to stop doing this now, but telling a trans person to imagine being misgendered is a little condescending. I’m sure OP gets misgendered plenty by strangers or even friends and family, because that comes with the territory.

        1. Jessica*

          It may sound condescending, but it’s hard for calls for obviously-due empathy to not sound condescending. The more misgendering the OP gets, the more baffling it is to think that they can’t recognize when they are misgendering others.

          1. Vin Packer*

            The idea that the OP has never been misgendered and must imagine it is condescending and not in line with reality. OP has definitely been mosgendered and knows exactly how it feels, promise.

            I liked the comment above, that pointed out that OP is young and trying to live zir truth, which isn’t always an easy thing to do, and so is acting a little misguided in zir excitement. OP needs to stop, but that’s all that really needs to be said about it.

            1. Vin Packer*

              Also, being misgendered as a trans or non binary person is a much different experience than being misgendered as a cis person. It still sucks, but it’s not the same.

              1. Jamey*

                Honestly I think it’s exactly the same except it happens to trans people about a thousand times more often.

                1. Jessie the First (or second)*

                  It’s the same in a literal sense – gender is wrong. It’s not the same in effect on the target – I am cis and present as feminine, and if someone were to misgender me, it would not trigger any kind of fear, or intense worry that my identity was going to be controversial, or anxiety that my job was in jeopardy or that I was going to face constant hostility. I’d be annoyed and then at some point, if it continued, mad. But not afraid or anxious.

                2. Jessie the First (or second)*

                  (ciswoman, so presenting as feminine means that a misgendering is not a commentary/political statement/form of aggression on my supposed failure to adhere to gender norms, which, again, means I do not face hostility/discrimination/issues in general around gender identity, so a misgendering would be an annoyance, not a cause for fear)

                3. Jamey*

                  (Replying to Jessie as it wouldn’t let me reply directly to the comment.)

                  Sorry, I totally agree with you! For some reason I read the above comment wrong, when they said “It still sucks”, I read it as “It still sucks to be misgendered as a trans person” as if being misgendered as a cis person was worse because “people should know.”

                  I’m trans and have faced a lot of harassment online recently so my mind jumped to this in a defensive way, but I shouldn’t have because all the comments here have been really understanding and good and I’ve been very pleasantly surprised by the lack of jerky comments. So go AAM readers!

                4. Observer*

                  @Jessie, for you it’s true that misgendering is merely annoying, not triggering of greater anxieties. But if you look at what other people have said, that’s not universally true. For many people misgendering brings up long histories of not being “right” in some way. So, perhaps not so different, for some people.

                5. Jessie the First (or second)*

                  @Observer, true, what is just just annoying for me is more than that for others. But my larger point is that for cisgendered folks, we are just not at the same risk of violence as trans people. So to say “it’s exactly the same” is trivializing, I believe. I am not claiming that there is no anxiety or problem as a cis person being misgendered. But we do not, as a general rule, face the very real threat of violence that trans people do.

                  I get we can’t say anything is universally true, because nothing is universally true. But things can be generally true – like the risk of violence transpeople face.

                6. Jessie the First (or second)*

                  Haha, and now I see Jamey’s clarification. So, Jamey, I’ll stop disagreeing with you because it looks like we aren’t disagreeing at all!

                7. Noobtastic*

                  I see it as similar to body shaming. Body shaming a thin person (for example, telling that person to “eat a sandwich”) vs. body shaming a fat person (“Put down the fork and hit the treadmill, Flabbo!”). They are both body-shaming, and rude and hurtful.

                  However, the body shaming directed at thin people happens a lot less frequently, and less systemically than the body shaming directed at fat people.

                  Likewise, gender-shaming directed at cis-gendered people, or even at people who pass for cis-gendered is a lot less frequent and a WHOLE LOT less systemic than the gender-shaming directed at non-binary/trans/agender/genderfluid/etc. people. That is the nature of privilege.

                  The shame always hurts, and we’re not in a competition about who hurts worse. We can say “It’s not the same” all we want; we still have to admit that the shame, no matter which end of the spectrum it’s on (or even if it’s not on the spectrum at all, and just sort of floating off to the side) is painful and neither helpful to the person being shamed (shamed into changing themselves to fit the shamer’s requirements? That’s giving the bully your lunch money for the rest of your life.) or to the person doing the shaming, nor in fact, to society as a whole.

                  Stigmatizing bad behaviors, that hurt other people, such as shaming people for rape, murder, theft, and littering, is a useful tool for promoting an orderly and safe society. Stigmatizing states of being, on the other hand, be it a state of gender, a state of body, a state of health, a state of mind, does not work, in any sense. All it does is break people’s hearts, and that is neither orderly nor safe.

              2. Trillian*

                At a systemic level, no. At a personal level — misgendering is one of the tools that bullies and abusers use, and when you’re a bullied teen, cis privilege is pretty damn meaningless.

              3. Former Flasher - regular commenter, anon for this*

                How do you know that? You haven’t said if you’re nonbinary or if you’re cisgender, but either way you’re one so you cannot understand the experience of the other.

                I’m a cisgender woman. I have a terrible scalp condition that causes extreme sensitivity in my scalp. As a kid, I couldn’t let my mom brush my hair without crying. So, I had a bowlcut until I was TWELVE and old enough to take care of my own hair without looking like a ragamuffin.

                The running joke in my family, but it wasn’t funny to me AT ALL at the time, is that I was a really cute little boy. I was constantly asked if I was a boy or a girl, even when wearing feminine clothing. I remember praying to God every night to let me grow boobs so that people would know without asking.

                To be honest, I think it’s why I’m overly effeminate now. I’m compensating for something. And when you’re saying it still sucks to be misgendered as a cisgender person but it’s not the same as a transgender person – try being a KID and being constantly told you look like/are a boy and being like NO I AM A GIRL and actually FLASHING PEOPLE YOUR GIRL PARTS to get them to see your point. (Got in trouble for that at summer camp and school multiple times)

                1. General Ginger*

                  That sounds really awful, and I’m sorry you had to go through that.

                  For me as a kid, though, it was being absolutely devastated, knowing that no matter how much I prayed/asked/hoped, I’d never have those parts to get them to see my point. That to every “but I’m a boy”, it would always be “it’s all in your head”, and my body would never be on my side in that.

                2. Former Flasher - regular commenter, anon for this*

                  @General Ginger I think I can actually relate more than most cisgender people because of what I went through as a kid. I was also a late bloomer, so God didn’t listen to my prayers to grow boobs until I was like 18. Luckily by 12, my mom let me have long hair and I had more control over what I wore.

                3. Jerky Jerkface*

                  Can I just say that in Girl Scouts I once gave a little girl the HARDEST time for having a bowl cut? I had my own issues and it was meant to deflect from myself. Im sorry you had to go through that. I’m really sorry and embarrassed about that, some 20 years later. I’m occasionally the absolute worst.

              4. Jamey*

                @Jessie

                I’m sorry, I totally agree! I read Vin Packer’s post completely wrong, as if they were saying that “Being misgendered as a trans person still sucks” as if it were less than a cis person being misgendered because people should “just know” or something like this.

                Now that I’m re-reading it, it was totally my mistake for reading that much into it. I’m trans and have been dealing with a lot of harassment online lately so that’s where my mind went and put me on the defensive. But nearly all the comments here have been super understanding and well thought out and not jerky at all so I shouldn’t have been so on the defensive.

            2. Jessica*

              The idea that the OP has never been misgendered and must imagine it is your idea. Sami asked them to imagine the coworker – who gets her pronouns right – misgendering the OP, asked them how they’d feel in that case, and then pointed out the OP is misgendering their co-worker, which they don’t seem to have taken on board yet. Hopefully they have now though.

              I get misgendering a cis person isn’t the same as misgendering a trans or non-binary person. But considering the OP has asked this woman flat-out if she’s transgendered and refused her pronouns, and considering how cis women get bullied with exactly that sort of behaviour by people who are just jerks (and not excited about living their truths), and considering it shouldn’t women’s jobs to parse the motives of people whose disregard they feel attacked by, I think OP needs to do some thinking on top of their stopping.

            3. Anion*

              I recognize your username, btw! :-) I haven’t read any of her books, but I know of them.

        2. RobM*

          “but telling a trans person to imagine being misgendered is a little condescending”

          — it would be, if it wasn’t for the fact that the LW has apparently have been doing exactly that to their colleague. Apparently they’re unable to relate their own experiences with being misgendered to that of others and a little prompt in that direction seems fair to me.

    4. Turtle Candle*

      I just asked my best friend and former roommate, a trans man, and he gave me this (and permitted me to post it):

      “I consider it misgendering to deliberately use a clearly unwanted pronoun on anyone. Misgendering is less harmful, generally, for cis people than for trans people, but it is still not harmless, and using unwanted pronouns–even ones that you consider neutral–can be a form of misgendering. You may consider certain pronouns to be neutral, but others may not. The larger issue, however, is that using ‘blanket’ or so-called ‘neutral’ pronouns where they are explicitly not desired undermines the importance of respecting desired pronouns and gender identification. Even if it’s ‘just’ done to cis people, or to ‘cishets,’ it’s still reinforcing a framework by which gender is enforced by others rather than determined by the individual, and reinforcing that framework is damaging to everyone, including non-cis, non-het people. Please reconsider your approach.”

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        This is a fantastic explanation. Many thanks to your roommate for sharing it!

      3. Thlayli*

        I agree with most of what your friend said. However I don’t agree that misgendering is “less harmful” for cis people. Plenty of people in other threads have mentioned their own experience of the fairly common phenomenon of women and girls being intentionally misgendered as an insult. I know misgendering boys is also a common bullying tactic.

        The cis people who are most likely to be misgendered are usually those who were bullied for their non-traditional appearance/ voice/ mannerisms as a child (and even as an adult).

        I don’t think is less harmful at all.

        1. Mustache Cat*

          It may be harmful, but it is not AS harmful. Misgendering trans people is more harmful because of things like a lack of civil rights, societal repression, family rejection, a history of horrific violence against the community. Etc. You’re being disingenuous if you ignore that.

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            Yeah, I agree with this.

            Like, I am cisgender, but thanks to weird medical stuff I’m hovering on the edge of what could be called intersex — and on top of that, being old enough to remember the “lesbian = not a ‘real’ woman! secretly a man!” hideous homophobic meme, means that altogether a gender neutral pronoun toward me would be incredibly offensive.

            Still not as harmful as it would be toward an actual trans person, but it would play into a whole bunch of gross stuff that I’ve had to cope with in my life.

          2. AMT*

            Agreed. I mean, there are states where I could get fired if I were outed. The worst that’s going to happen to a non-trans person is being insulted (which is certainly not fun, but not the same level of harm).

            1. Also nonbinary*

              Not just fired, outed trans people also face heightened risk of violent assault and murder.

            2. Whats In A Name*

              Or they get raped because a group of frat boys don’t believe they are a straight woman and need her to “prove it to me”. She’d enjoy it if she were straight, right? Happened when I was in high school to a classmate who went to a college party one night a friend.

          3. Noobtastic*

            The way I see it, misgendering non-binary/trans/agender/etc. is more of a systemic evil, basically denying the humanity and existence of entire groups of people who do not fit into the binary gender mold.

            On the other hand, misgendering a cis-gendered person is a personal insult, usually because that person has failed to live up to society’s (or the person doing the misgendering’s) ideas of proper appearance, characteristics, and/or behavior of a member of the specific gender. “Stop acting like a girl!” or “You dress like a boy,” or “Dude, you’re such a woman,” or “You’re over thirty, but not married with six children? You’re a failure as a woman!” These are all painful and harmful direct insults, and the use of misgendering pronouns are more subtle, but still painful and harmful indirect insults, but they are not systemic.

            Misgendering trans/NB/etc. people perpetuates a systemic problem, where such people feel, and in fact ARE, unsafe in many areas of their lives, because society, as a whole, does not accept them. Meanwhile, misgendering cis-gendered people does perpetuate gender roles in society, but it mostly boils down to “So and so is being a jerk.”

            Both are harmful, but it benefits no one to host the “Oppression Olympics.”

      4. dg*

        In addition: ze and hir are gender-neutral pronouns, but they’re not the most common gender-neutral pronouns, and many of my enby friends have very specific pronouns they use.

        If you “hir” an enby person whose pronoun would be “their” or “churr” or “nir” or “vis” or “xyr,” you’re still misgendering them by ignoring their preferred pronoun. So even the original argument of respecting enbys who aren’t out of the closet yet is kind of… moot.

        My partner is non-binary, out to some people and not out to others. I guarantee you that if you called them by a very flagged, deliberate enby pronoun like “Ze” or “Hir” in front of people they weren’t out to, the last thing they’d feel was supported. They’d be terrified.

        Please stop hurting the people around you, regardless of their gender.

        1. KHB*

          Can you elaborate on the reasons why someone might choose to use nonstandard gender-neutral pronouns? I’ve never met anyone who asked to be referred to as “nir” or “vis” or “xyr,” and I don’t mean to be insensitive, but my first reaction is that they seem a little silly. But maybe there’s something I’m not understanding, and if that’s the case, I’m willing to learn.

          1. dg*

            Here’s a list of the etymology of a bunch of the most common gender-neutral pronouns, which exist because of cis people saying things like “using a plural word as a singular pronoun seems a little silly,” so honestly there’s no way for non-binary people to win in a binary world.

            https://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com/tag/ze-and-hir/

            I’d humbly submit that it’s actually the concept of gender that’s a bit silly.

        2. Also nonbinary*

          IMO, pronouns like xie, ze, and hir are so nonstandard that they’re more likely to out someone as trans/GNC. Unless they’ve asked you to do so, I would avoid it. They/them is probably the safest bet, but only if you actually don’t know what pronouns someone prefers.

        1. Megan M.*

          “Het” would be short for “heterosexual,” so “cis-het” would be referring to someone who is both cisgender and heterosexual.

        2. AnotherAnon*

          It’s short for “heterosexual”, so a “cishet” person is someone who is both cisgendered (identifies as the gender they were assigned at birth) and heterosexual.

          1. Kit M. Harding*

            My experience of “cishet” is that in most cases it also has a negative connotation– if people abbreviate it like that, they’re usually using it to complain about behaviors of cisgender heterosexual people as a group.

      10. Noobtastic*

        Yeah, by misgendering someone else (no matter what their gender, cis/trans/NB/etc.), you are basically saying to them “Your identity is not yours to determine or own.”

        Feminists have been fighting against this for well over a century now, in so-called “Western society”, and that very fight is what allowed the OP to come out and publicly own their non-binary identity, in the first place. To then tell someone else that their identity is not theirs to determine or own is mind-bogglingly hypocritical.

    5. Turanga Leela*

      Echoing Gaia here: I use female pronouns and feel pretty strongly about it. I’m not a they or a ze; I’m a she. If someone insists on calling me “Mx. Turanga Leela,” I’ll be irritated, because that’s not my name—just like I get cranky with more conservative friends who call me “Mrs.” (I’m a Ms. and always have been.)

      2. GreyjoyGardens*

        If somebody calls me Ms. Lastname I assume they’re trying to sell me something. I’ve never been called Mx. Lastname but I’d assume the same thing. I don’t know of any workplaces where people go by Title and Lastname.

      3. Sylvia*

        +1

        I’m also a Sylvia, not a gender-neutral version of the same name. If you wouldn’t pick a new name for someone, don’t pick a new pronoun.

    6. Jadelyn*

      Gender neutral absolutely CAN be misgendering, to someone who has a clearly defined gender identity that is not a neutral one! Using gender neutral pronouns for cis people and binary-gendered trans people is by definition misgendering them.

  4. Leah*

    #3: Why are you asking people if they are transgender? That seems rather rude. Also, just because someone prefers binary pronouns doesn’t mean they have a problem with you being non-binary. You say she has a problem with that but then you say that she does respect your pronouns. It seems simplest to just ask people what pronouns they use if you’re not sure what to call them and then use those pronouns.
    Also, I think in New York and possibly other places, (obligatory IANAL) it is considered harassment to repeatedly and intentionally use the wrong pronouns to refer to people. I really think if you went to HR you would be the one who got in trouble.

  5. Casuan*

    OP5: In British English “bloody” is a strong expletive. In American English, it’s a step or two above “damn,” which is not precise because they’re different parts of speech. With an international clientele “bloody hell” should be avoided.
    full disclosure: I’m American who usually communicates British English & I tend to use “bloody” with friends more often than I should.

    1. LemonLymon*

      Yeah, my in-laws are English living in America. They explained to me that saying “bloody” is strength-wise akin to the f-word. I don’t know for sure but am pretty certain “bloody hell” is even stronger. We Americans find it novel and feel cheeky ison it but it would be incredibly inappropriate to use around people from the U.K. … especially clients!

      1. Dizzy Steinway*

        Bloody is a bit less offensive than the f-word, but it’s still swearing and is unprofessional. Your colleague should try saying “Oh no!” instead.

        Or. Remember in Friends when Ross and Rachel used non swear words as Emma was learning to talk? My grandpa used to do that. He’d say ‘oh crysanthemums!’

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I used to date a kindergarten teacher — a giant 6’3″ dude who rode a motorcycle and who, because of his job, was in the habit of saying things like “oh fudge” and “sugar!” instead of swear words. It was pretty adorable.

          1. Dizzy Steinway*

            That’s really cute! We used to say sugar instead of s#%t when I was a teenager and my brain actually now interprets that as a swear word so I’d feel strange saying it to a kid.

            1. Anna*

              And that right there is why categorizing some words as “bad” swear words and others as “acceptable” swear words is kind of a silly notion.

              I mean, I get it. But I love to curse, have friends who don’t care if their kids curse, and we all know when it’s appropriate to do it.

          2. Casuan*

            My nephew chose “Sassafras!” as his ersatz-curse word. I love it & I wish I’d remember to use it more often myself!

            1. eplawyer*

              I thought I was the only person who used sassafras. I also say “fudgesticks” If I am really mad, I get very Italian and stop speaking coherently and just wave my hands a lot. As an Italian, I have to be very careful when using the few words in ASL I know. Apparently thank you and good morning in ASL are very close to Italian swearing.

              I use bloody a lot also. I know it’s bad, but the people I hang around with don’t, so I can use it to swear when I don’t want them to know I’m swearing.

              Let me also say I LOVE “cheeky.”

              1. Just passing by*

                > Apparently thank you and good morning in ASL are very close to Italian swearing.

                Very close indeed! To be polite and thank some one, you have an open palm toward your face, touch your fingers to your chin, and extend your arm outward in an arc. To be incredibly rude and tell someone to return to whence they came with due prejudice, you need simply tuck your fingers UNDER your chin and flick outward. ;)

            2. Lily in NYC*

              That is so cute! I’m trying to swear less and now my teammates keep teasing me for saying “clusterfudge” multiple times a day. And one of my coworkers says “lord love a duck” when she is annoyed and it cracks me up (apparently it’s a common saying where she grew up).

              2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                I have a coworker who says this all the time and also says it’s common/regional! I’ve now heard it from enough people that I really want to use it.

                My favorite is my extremely polished coworker/admin who uses a common Southernism when she’s frustrated and says (in a completely even/unemotional voice), “Lawwwwd, I nearly lost my religion.”

              3. KellyK*

                Is it a Southern-ism? One of my friends says “Lord love a duck,” and she’s from North Carolina.

                1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  I’ve heard it from “northern” Southerners (Virginia, Kentucky, North Carolina, Tennessee) and from parts of the midwest, but closer to the rust belt (i.e., Appalachian Ohio and Pennsylvania). I haven’t heard it in West Virginia, but I have also not spent enough time in WV or with WVirginians to know if folks use it, there.

                  Now I’m really curious, though, about how regionally widespread it is.

            3. Marillenbaum*

              Sassafras is an excellent one! When I’m around my nephews (5 and 3), my go-tos are “good grief!” and “Botheration!” which they find hilarious. Of course, my sister (their mother) regularly uses garden-variety profanity around them, but I still can’t imagine swearing around kiddos.

              1. for sure*

                I used to say “good grief” while babysitting, and the kid who inspired me to say it the most often now refers to me as Charlie Brown :)

            4. BF50*

              I love Sassafras!

              At around 3 my daughter went through a phase when she said “oh eyeball” when she was annoyed. Always made me laugh.

              My son when through a phase of saying “oh gracious”. He was 2 and couldn’t really say gracious, so it was about the cutest thing ever.

          3. Bryce*

            My brother says nothing gets people’s attention like saying “gosh darn freaking heck” and meaning it. My own language is more salty, though not sailor-level.

            1. JaneB*

              Some English circumlocutions:

              “Oh for crying out loud!”

              “Oh cobblers!”

              “That wretched photocopier!”

              My grandad liked “policeman-bladder-of-lard” for some reason and it does sound quite satisfying!

              1. Kathleen Adams*

                “For crying out loud” is very common in AmE as well. “Wretched” is not, but I use it anyway. :-)

                1. Jessie the First (or second)*

                  We use wretched a lot. Mainly about our kids when they have been acting, well, wretched. (“This is wretched behavior. Stop.”) (“The kids have been wretched little monsters today. I need a stiff drink.”)

              2. Rookie Manager*

                My Dad uses “Heavens to Mercetroid”; “Oh piddle down an old ladies leg” and “extracting the urine”.

                They amuse me. Unless directed at me.

                1. Kathleen Adams*

                  “Mercetroid” not “Murgatroyd”? I adore “Heavens to Murgatroyd” – which is associated for many of us with the cartoon character Snagglepuss, and you gotta love a Snagglepuss reference – but I haven’t ever run into “Mercetroid.” I kind of like it, though.

                2. Wooden Nickle*

                  My dad favors “Dirty blasted rat-ta-frat!” It has the same punch as other expletives, so I’ve picked it up too.

                5. napkin seal*

                  I picked up “dag gommit” from my dad… then many years later realized it was essentially ‘goddamnit” and dropped it. “Jimminey Crickets” is another I got from him… not sure why the mispronunciation.
                  A la Snagglepus I’m know from “heavens to murgatroyd – exit stage left” then I dramatically sprint from the room in frustration. makes my kid laugh.

              3. Casuan*

                Was your grandfather British?
                If so, I wonder if the policeman-lard phrase is Cockney or another rhyming slang?
                If so, I’m not even going to try to guess the rhyme! I never can do that with Cockney, anyway.

                “Sassafras” is effective because of its alliterative oomph-factor, IMHO.

                Sometimes I use Klingon curses, although there’s one that sounds too much like its English counterpart so that’s out for polite company.
                Usually I can get away with “p’takh.” It’s quite handy for several situations & to me it also has that oomph-factor!

                1. Elizabeth West*

                  Hahah, I know what that one means (the Klingon). :)

                  I favor a good loud “RAT FINKS!” when I can’t curse but need to. As in, “You dirty rat fink [car, stoplight, software glitch, etc.]!”

                2. Noobtastic*

                  I’m a Mork and Mindy fan, and have used “Shazzbot” more often than I should.

            1. anonderella*

              The edited for TV version of Office Space has the neighbor character saying, instead of “f–k’n A”, the shortened “k’n A.”
              ‘Kinay has been an acceptable version of the expletive phrase in my parent’s household since I was a child bc of this.

              On that topic, here’s a link to an article about the origins of “f–k’n A’, if anyone is interested. There’s obviously a lot of swearing, but it was a pretty interesting read! (didn’t know that about snafu, or See You Next Tuesday – that last one makes me seriously need to go rewatch/reread some things)
              https://stronglang.wordpress.com/2015/11/13/what-the-fuck-is-the-a-in-fucking-a/

            2. Bryce*

              I saw a version of Aliens with the curse words blanked out. When the soldiers were ambushed in the tunnel, it suddenly became a silent film.

          5. Liane*

            When my kids were little, I used to use “drinks milkshakes” instead of “sucks.” A lot of us in my circle, being geeks, will often use swear words from science fiction shows.

            1. Qmatilda*

              Yes, Frack is still a favorite of mine. But the BF’s little boys still hear that as a curse word…

              1. blushingflower*

                Yes, Frack and Frell are common in my household.
                I also like the way The Good Place deals with it: fork and shirt.

                1. Nobody Here By That Name*

                  I was just about to chime in with some The Good Place love! It’s a forking good show!

            3. JustaTech*

              Oh Smeg, I’d forgotten about those! My parents were thrilled when my brother picked up “smeg” (From Red Dwarf) to replace all the actual swear words he’d picked up. And the Spanish swear words, which he thought no one knew. Which was dumb because my mom had lived in Spain and knew some spectacular phrases (and I know when I’m being called a female dog in most languages).

                1. Casuan*

                  Ewww, indeed!!!!!
                  “Smeg” never caught on with me although I couldn’t ever think of why. Now I know!!
                  On side note, not many know the definition of “smegma.”

          6. Karyn*

            That reminds me of when Masterchef Junior was in one of its first seasons, and they did a thing where three kids had to make whipped cream and the test of its quality was that they stood on tall ladders and tipped the bowl over to see if it would pour out – and if it did, it would land squarely on each judge’s head. Gordon Ramsay’s contestant failed the challenge, so the cream poured down on Gordon, and it was apparently very cold – but because he was dealing with young kids, he let out one accidental “SH*T!” and then tempered it to “SUGAR! SUGAR SUGAR SUGAR!” It was hilarious and adorable.

          7. memoryisram*

            My sister is an elementary school teacher and says “sugar beets” which is something I relied heavily on when working at a very religious higher-ed institution.

          9. Biscuit is my favorite word*

            When playing a rousing game of double solitaire, I would say “biscuits!” or “aw biscuits!”. My niece, who was 7 at the time, started copying me – except she thought I said “raw biscuits!”. So now that’s a family joke :)

            1. Lora*

              Ha. One of the guys in my lab says “biscuits!” when he is annoyed, and when he’s really annoyed he says “biscuits AND gravy!”

              I yell various kinds of blessings when I’m really mad: “God Bless America!” And the Southern method: “Bless his heart, I’ll pray for him.”

              1. Elizabeth West*

                I sometimes say “son of a biscuit eater.”

                Also, something I stole off a TV show (I can’t remember what), but if I start to say “Goddamn” and catch myself in time, it comes out like “God–” *singing loudly* “–BLESS AMERICA!” Anybody hearing it cracks up and offense is avoided.

              2. JustaTech*

                I had a professor who insisted on “family lab” (ie no swearing) which was really hard when you messed up something you’d been working on for two hours. We generally just devolved to grunting because we’d forgotten all the not-quite swearing words.
                It was good practice for going to Disneyland and realizing you were surrounded by kids and their parents and you really couldn’t swear.

          10. AMG*

            I have been working really hard at my swearing, even enlisting my kids to help. They get $1 anytime my husband or I say a bad word. My favorites are:
            Son of a biscuit
            Fork / forked / forking
            Bullshirt
            For the love of Benny Hill
            Goat Rodeo

            1. AMG*

              ‘Son of a motherless goat’ is another good one. I guess I have an issue with goats. Lol.

              1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                Ooo, that one is really good. But I am sensing a goat theme :)

                My grandparents used to try to get us to use “mischievous culprit” instead of “jerk” or “idiot.” Of course it didn’t work, but you can imagine how amused a bunch of tweens would be with the idea that they should say something so formal as a “swear.”

          12. TootsNYC*

            I worked with a woman who said “phooie!” a lot.

            My husband uses “blast it” and “this blasted thing!” instead of the F-word.

            It has the explosive consonant at the beginning, so it’s pretty satisfying to say. And it’s totally non-offensive (in terms of vocabulary; the intensity might be offputting–or it would be if he could summon up some “extreme rage” instead of “noticeable annoyance”)

          1. Rey*

            My sister and I favor “Marshmellow Fluffer,” but I’m definitely passing “Mother Hubbard” along to her.

              1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                Would fluffernutter be an acceptable substitute? Or does that make it worse…?

                2. Dizzy Steinway*

                  Now you’re covering off pornography AND mental health stigma.

                  So yeah, it’s worse, sorry!

                3. Dizzy Steinway*

                  PS we don’t have nutter butters here or whatever they are called. Nutter is an offensive word but not a profanity.

                  Ah, language.

                4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  @Dizzy, I was being a little facetious, but a fluffernutter is a kind of sandwich (which is related to how the nutter butter got its name) :)

                  That said, if there’s no social context for the full phrase, then I could see how the individual parts could make it uniquely rude/bizarre!

                5. Violet Fox*

                  Many years ago I had a long conversation explaining to my SO that a fluffernutter is in fact a sandwich with peanut butter and marshmallow fluff, so when I called the cat that it wasn’t something dirty or porny, just a funny word with fluffy in it.

                  SO didn’t believe me that marshmallow fluff was a thing until I pointed it out in the grocery store.

                6. Chicklet*

                  I use fluffernutter as a swear substitute quite often. Also “frick” and “freaking.”

                7. Sci Fi IT Girl*

                  I used to have a big newfoundland dog that I called my “flufferpuffer” (for the fluffy fur -as a nick name). Someone took pity on me and told me the um….meaning of fluffer in the porn industry.

                  For cursing a good bit of Klingon, Smeg, Frack. And my friend in high school would let lose a violent “Oh Shamu!” (when I first heard it was a whale I about died)

          2. Why Don't We Do It in the Code*

            A friend says “mother flower,” and “sugar” or “sugar shack” when he really gets revved up.

        3. CaitlinM*

          I say “Oh bother” a lot. Occasionally I get odd looks, but it’s better than swearing in front of a client.

            1. Elemeno P.*

              I like making offensive cross-stitch for my friends, and I once made one of Pooh bear with the caption “Go bother yourself.”

          2. Parenthetically*

            “Blast!” is my go-to. It’s extreeeeemely satisfying to say, almost as satisfying as an actual swear.

          3. Lily in NYC*

            Tina Fey says “oh bother” a lot, so you are in very good company. Hmm, or maybe she says “oh brother”. I can’t remember!

          4. a different Vicki*

            “Bother!” is satisfying, to me, in a way that some other circumlocutions aren’t, I think because it’s at least in the direction of what I’m thinking: I really am bothered (at least) by something, but “sugar” or “fudge” may be closer to the sound of what they’re replacing, but they’re positive/cheerful things.

          2. Peep*

            That reminds me of the Madagascar movie, and the penguins saying “HOOVER DAM!” Hahahaha. It’s my favorite. Especially when said in a fake crime/noir accent. ;D

        5. Archie Goodwin*

          I long for the chance to use “son of a Yocknapatawpha [somethingorother]” one of these days. I’ve used it in my head, but somehow never have the chance to speak it out loud.

          I also got “mille noms d’un diable” from Dumas – that has a certain flair to it, even if I generally use it (if at all) only under my breath.

        6. DiscoTechie*

          My go to curse was “Son of a ‘female dog’…which has turned into “son of a biscuit” as a by product of living in the south for 6 years.

        7. Qmatilda*

          My french teacher taught us that the French for “fiddle sticks” was” Bagatelle” which if you add a little emphasis made an adequate non curse, curse.

        8. Jessesgirl72*

          I had a teacher who’d say “HECKDARNPOOPCRAPKUHKUH” as all one word.

          He’d been a teacher for ages, and had 5 kids of his own.

          1. TeapotSweaterCrocheter*

            My favorite is from a Calvin and Hobbes strip – the father stubs his toe or something and Calvin can hear him, so the father comes out with “Slippin’ Rippin’ Dang Fang Rotten Zarg Barg-A-Ding-Dong!”

            It is VERY fun to say, especially if you say it fast and loud.

        9. Trig*

          I knew some Mormons way back in high school. They are MASTERS at swear alternatives. (Wish I could remember any good examples, but next time a missionary bothers you, you can always ask him about his swears!)

            2. Regina George*

              Stop trying to make “Fetch” happen, Gretchen. It’s never going to happen!

          2. Marillenbaum*

            “I got down and sat on a bench!” was a favorite of my old drama teacher back in Provo.

          3. Noobtastic*

            I like “Oh, my stars and garters!” and “Gosh darn it to heck in a hand basket!”

            And then there’s “abalone,” which comes from “aww, baloney,” which comes from “aww, bull sh–.” I fully expect abalone to morph into clams and oysters sometime soon.

          4. Themiscyra*

            When I was still a Mormon, I really just used ‘darn’ and ‘heck’ and ‘for heaven’s sake’ a lot (and caught flack from a more srs bsns Mormon friend once who was all DO NOT SWEAR BY HEAVEN FOR THAT IS GOD’S THRONE). I felt terribly scandalous the first time I took the Lord’s name in vain.

            I feel pretty comfortable going all the way up to f-bombs now, but still sometimes use ‘shittake mushrooms’ (thank you, Spy Kids), ‘goddess incarnate’ (thank you, neopaganism), and ‘what in the name of earth and sky’. I was a pretty cautious kid and never dared skirt the edge of near-swears like ‘Cheese and Rice,’ I fear, and once I stopped caring about profanity I mostly just used the real thing.

            Heh, though I am reminded of a time when I was still Mormon and thought my mom had said Hell — she asked why I looked so shocked at what she’d said and I tried SO HARD to explain without using the word. “I thought you said ‘what the *grunt, meaningful grimace* is going on!” It took several tries before she understood and cracked up.

        10. NW Mossy*

          My husband and I adapted “BS” for use with our kids – to them, it stands for “baloney sandwich,” which fits nicely with the colloquial use of baloney as something that’s obviously nonsense/fake.

        11. Nolan*

          I once had a coworker who was a mother of three, and her go-to retail-friendly term was “oh, sugarsnacks!” which was just amazing in her very sweet voice. It has found its way into my personal vernacular as well.

        12. Anlyn*

          I’ve started making up swear words, because I get tired of the usual ones. “Son of a goatmonkey” and “grump nuts” are a couple I’ve used. “Son of a booger” is another but I didn’t make that one up.

          1. AMG*

            I love grump nuts! My kids are 10 and 12, so they think anything with ‘nuts’ is super funny. They’ll get a kick out of this.

        13. Caryl*

          While I was interning at Disney World, my friends and I started using “Mickey” in place of the F word at work, eg. “Mickey that” or “go Mickey yourself”. Occasionally we’d branch out into substituting it elsewhere in other compounds involving the F word, like “Mickeyhugging” or “Mickeyhugger”.

        1. Liz*

          That’s what I was coming to say too. You can say “bloody” (as in, “That bloody photocopier”) without anyone batting an eye, as long as there weren’t any kids under 12 present.

      3. Casuan*

        This is why I love being a linguist. Each language has its own set of severity, ie: the French word “zut” is between “darn & “damn.” I don’t like vulgarity, so it’s helpful to have precise swear words at my disposal with the advantage that most won’t understand them!
        That said, I have a strict policy of never assuming no one will understand me, so my advantage is usually restricted to my personal life & not in public. It cracks me up when a friend texts to have me clarify something so they can use the word themselves.

        When in doubt, anything that translates worse than “damn” is off-limits.

        1. Bryce*

          Zut has always made me giggle since high school, when the language-use video we were watching in French class had someone say “aww, zut zut et zut” in response to needing to make her bed. It was in such an odd casual tone for even a mild curse word that we couldn’t stop laughing for the rest of the period and it became an in-joke.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Hahaha, the first thing we mastered in college French were all the swear words. We ran around yelling “Merde!” and “Zut alors!” all the time. Then we got creative and started with stuff like derriere de cheval (horse butt, basically). The masterpiece was something like “You testicle of a pig!” but I can’t for the life of me remember it.

            1. JustaTech*

              My best ever day of Spanish class was swearing day. The first time the teacher graded them from “OK to say in front of your grandmother” to “only appropriate for the end of the world”.
              The second time we were watching a Spanish R-rated movie (Abre los ojos, remade as Vanilla Sky) and just asked the teacher “Hey, what was that word?” and she just translated it.

            2. TootsNYC*

              we had an exchange student from Portugal, and my brother got her to teach him some vocabulary so he could call people a doorknob or pantyhose in another language. And in our small Iowa town, she was the only one who knew those words, and she had promised not to rat him out, but to act really shocked when someone asked her what they were.

        2. Lablizard*

          I love being bilingual because I can generally get away with swearing in my native language in the US and the odds of someone understanding me are very low in my area and industry. Even better, most of our strong curses that don’t translate, so language learners would be baffled.

        3. Parenthetically*

          My husband says “scheisse” on the very very rare occasions that he swears. But then he’s Australian, so “damn” and “hell” and “ass” aren’t *really* swears to him.

            1. Parenthetically*

              He took about 8 years of German, so of course he knows that. He does it because it’s less obviously a swear in English, but satisfies his swearing needs.

                1. fposte*

                  And I think that goes back directly to the OP, in fact; knowing something is a swear somewhere makes it more satisfying, but it’s not going to trip taboo triggers in the same way. Swearing is a very delicate act, and I really like Manders’ discussion downthread about how American swearing is changing.

          2. Elizabeth West*

            I learned that one from Raiders of the Lost Ark. There’s a scene where Indy dumps some guy off a motorbike or a jeep or something, and you can totally hear him say it.

        4. Trig*

          I love French Canadian swears because they’re ALL about the church and you just string them together for added emphasis. The swear alternatives are my favourite. I had a grade five teacher who would exclaim “CAAAAALin de bin de bon de bin!” It took until adulthood, and living in a more French area, for me to realize the word she was avoiding. (Calisse = chalice = the thing you drink the wine out of at communion.)

          2. EmKay*

            I’m québécoise, and the madder I am, the longer the a is in “caaaaalisse”. My friends think it’s hilarious.

            Example of the string along: calisse d’estie de calvaire de saint-ciboire de tabarnak de criss de MARDE.

            1. EmKay*

              Of course all my friends and colleagues understand me when I swear in French. Or English. So sometimes I will use the Klingon “petaQ” (pah-TACK), but even then my tone of voice gives it away…

          3. Agnodike*

            Yes! I grew up with “tabarnouche” and “câlin;” my mother won’t even say “zut” (it becomes “flute”). Also sometimes “crisse” got turned into “criss…mas Day!” in true Franglais fashion.

          4. N.J.*

            That’s interesting. It’s kind of like the Spanish swear words I learned in school, but those officially tied to Christianity, due to Catholicism being the predominant religious expression. The movies we used to watch, especially those from Spain and from older time periods all used heavily religious based swears such as “hostia” (the host-Body and Christ). My impression though was that these types of curses were viewed at some point as worse than those arising from secular society. Is it the same for québécois?

      4. The Database Overlord*

        As an English guy, today’s “5 questions” is pretty hilarious. “Bloody” is incredibly mild on the swearing spectrum, “Bloody hell” equally so, to the point that it doesn’t even figure on guidelines to broadcasters for swearing when children could be watching:

        For example, from http://www.channel4.com/producers-handbook/ofcom-broadcasting-code/protecting-under-18s-and-harm-and-offence/offensive-language

        “A word like “bloody”, on the other hand, is generally deemed to be relatively inoffensive and its inclusion, even in a programme watched by large numbers of children, would be unlikely to offend most viewers. However, broadcasters must have regard to the ‘cumulative effect’ of casual swearing.”

        I wonder whether your in-laws are particularly sensitive to language, because “bloody” really isn’t anything to be concerned about.

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          Yep… my granda, who almost got held in contempt at a court martial where he was a witness to an assault for refusing to say either f**k or b*****d because he does not swear (only got out of it when his CO was called to confirm that he never swore) uses bloody.

        2. Gen*

          My mother thinks “gobstopper” is an offensive swear word (we’re in the UK) and she doesn’t react to bloody. It’s not that rude at all

            1. Gen*

              Yup. She calls them mouthstoppers and gets very upset about anything children might see having ‘gob’ written on it :/

        3. The Other Katie*

          I think it’s a generational thing, it’s vastly less offensive to younger people than it is to older people.

        4. MW*

          Must concur, I’m Scottish, live in Glasgow, and “bloody” is super mild. I’ve never been aware of it being a big deal either here or south of the border.

          Maybe this is a skewed perspective, though, in Scotland the C-Word is considered a lot less offensive, and weirdly, used as often (if not moreso?) to refer to men.

          1. AnnaleighUK*

            My grandfather was Scottish and he would use the C-word to affectionately refer to his friends, as in ‘I’m going for a drink with Jimmy, the wee c***’. The problem with this was that it didn’t occur to me that in England it’s more offensive, as I spent most of my childhood in Stirling. I did get in a bit of trouble when I moved down here to London!

          2. Thlayli*

            I’ve only ever heard the c-word used to refer to men all over the British isles. But in anerica I think it’s more often used to refer to women.

            Language is funny.

            1. NotoriousMCG*

              Well, c*** is a vulgar word for vagina. From context clues it always seemed like British men used it like American men use p***y, but in America c*** is far far more offensive

              1. MW*

                At least in the west of Scotland, the use is dissimilar to that of p***y or b***h. The P- and B- words are used to suggest someone is in some way effeminate in a derogatory way, lacking in traditionally masculine traits such as bravery, aggression, etc. A distasteful soul may, for instance, call someone a man by the B-Word because they are perceived to be weak or submissive, but would not use the C-Word in the same context (in my area). It’s used in a much more general context like git, or d**k. To be clear, I’m not endorsing or agreeing with those uses of the word or the accompanying gender stereotypes, I’m trying to capture the use of language which, unfortunately, is most often used in nasty ways.

                For a masterclass on the subject, watch any scene in Trainspotting with Robert Carlyle as Begbie, who uses the word frequently to great impact.

                I hope this isn’t getting too in depth on profanity for this comments section :x Sorry Allison!

              2. AMPG*

                Right – in the U.S. many people think of c*** as akin to a racial slur (only aimed at women).

          3. Akcipitrokulo*

            Yes! In Glasgow it’s either its traditional, offensive form, or it can just mean person or friend. “Any of you c**ts want to go to the pub?” “Hullo Tommy, ya auld c**t, how’s it going?”

            Telling if it’s the aggressive usage isn’t hard though :)

          4. Lablizard*

            It took me a while to get used to the use of the c-word by British, Australian, and New Zealander people. The first time I heard something call a piece of equipment that in school my eyes nearly popped out of my head.

        5. JaneB*

          It depends on context – in my part of England “bloody” and “bloody hell” are swearing that would get a second look in a client context, where you could just about get away with “damn”, and “drat” is perfectly acceptable and even quite cute. But both dad and grandad used bloody a lot – Dad picked it up on national service (so in the army) and then as an engineering apprentice, and Grandad was a fireman, so I think it’s one of those context dependent words.

          There are also various layers depending on your upbringing – after all, bloody is actually BLASPHEMY (a contraction of “by our Lady”) therefore is considered by some of my acquaintance to be worse than the word “sh*t”, since the latter is graphic rather than blasphemous, although I think popular usage puts it lower on the swearing scale (and we’re non-conformist Protestant to the backbone, so…).

          1. Teclatrans*

            Oh! I could not figure out *why* it was so bad (for those who see it that way. I didn’t understand that it was actually profane.

      5. Marzipan*

        I don’t agree that ‘bloody’ is particularly strong. And neither do Ofcom, who recently surveyed people and worked out a scale of offensiveness: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/lookuk/news/ofcom-officially-ranked-swear-words-557942%3Fsource%3Ddam. ‘Bloody’ rated as ‘mild and generally of little concern’ i.e. you could use it before the watershed (the time before which it’s assumed children will be watching TV, and swearing is heavily restricted). F*** ranked three levels higher at ‘strongest words, highly unacceptable pre-watershed’.
        Personally, I’d rank ‘bloody hell’ as a pretty mild expletive but something I probably wouldn’t say in front of my grandmother or grandboss, just to be on the safe side.

        1. Cambridge Comma*

          Thanks for the data! I think there’s a huge difference in saying ‘bloody hell’ at someone in anger and just saying it in someone’s presence when something annoying happens like missing a bus or losing half a digestive while you’re dunking it.

        2. Cool Runnings*

          Agreed. I don’t see “bloody” as a swear word at all, so it’s certainly not higher than “damn.”

      6. Marzipan*

        I don’t agree that ‘bloody’ is particularly strong. And neither do Ofcom, who recently surveyed people and worked out a scale of offensiveness: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/lookuk/news/ofcom-officially-ranked-swear-words-557942%3Fsource%3Ddam. ‘Bloody’ rated as ‘mild and generally of little concern’ i.e. you could use it before the watershed (the time before which it’s assumed children will be watching TV, and swearing is heavily restricted). F*** ranked three levels higher at ‘strongest words, highly unacceptable pre-watershed’.

      7. Anon Anon*

        When I was growing up bloody hell was in the same category as shit. Not quite as bad as the f word, but still completely unacceptable. Even now, when I curse in front of my parents I’d don’t use bloody hell or the f word because it will upset them.

      8. BF50*

        It’s really hard to compare because in my experience the F word isn’t as strong across the pond as it is here, so equating bloody to the F word doesn’t give a clear picture.

      9. Bonky*

        How old are your in-laws, and are they religious? I am British, I’ve lived in the UK all my life and I have never, ever, ever heard anybody express the opinion that it’s anywhere near the F-word.

        There’s definitely a (small) generational thing here; my mother would find it a mild swear, my peers (I’m in my 40s) not even worth comment. But I would be seriously hard-pressed to find anybody at all who thinks what your in-laws think outside the very cultiest of religions.

        It’s absolutely not inappropriate to use around clients in the UK. I’ve said upthread that in my professional life I’ve heard politicians, priests and teachers use it; it’s ubiquitous.

    2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Yes, this. OP#5, don’t use “bloody hell” in professional contexts (and please never use “bugger”—I had a friend who thought this was work-appropriate slang because it wasn’t the f-word). I’m imagining my grandmother and extended family reacting to someone who used this as a substitute for American expletives, and the picture is not pretty.

      [Please imagine a puzzled/confused tone of voice for the following questions:] Is he an American? Is he trying to be cute?

      1. Dizzy Steinway*

        Oh wow, no, never use bugger. Or sod. You’ll cover off sexual language and homophobia in one fell swoop.

        1. Clewgarnet*

          Huh? Bloody hell, bugger and sod are my go-to swearing replacements among co-workers. (Yes, I know the etymology.) When I’m with management/vendors, it’s drat, bother, cripes and crikey.

          When it’s the middle of the night and half the network’s down, I let the f-bombs fly and anybody in the vicinity can just duck.

          I’m 100% Northern English. Things may be different dahn sahth.

          1. JaneB*

            Also, bugger isn’t JUST homosexuality, isn’t it derived from the name of some group of heretics, who among other things were rumoured to sanction male homosexuality? I agree, currently living in’t’north, and bugger and sod are pretty common currency – the f word remains excessive, and the c word is completely No Go, whereas I know there are parts further north where that is practically a term of affection and applied to all sorts of peoples and contexts.

          2. AliCat*

            Yea I was about to say, I think this may be entirely regional as well. I’m marrying a Brit from the Northeast and when he properly curses my Londoner friends eyes nearly pop out of their heads.

          3. Bonky*

            I’m from the south and have worked in Cambridge or London my whole life. Bugger, sod and, yes, bloody (which is milder than either bugger or sod) are common currency in every office I’ve worked in. (My current office is one where only the c-word would be looked upon with a bit of surprise; f-bombs are totally standard.) Bloody has always been considered absolutely find in front of clients wherever I have worked, although I will admit that I will occasionally swap in a swear like “badgers” or “swan in a ditch” in client meetings to keep everybody on their toes.

          4. SKA*

            American here, delighted to see that apparently part of the UK has the same stereotypical pronunciation of “down south” as Pittsburgh!

          5. Liz*

            “Sod” is another one of those very mild words. “Sodding printer” might be a bit worse than “Bloody printer” but most people I know wouldn’t even blink, whether SE England or eastern Scotland.

        2. Wee Lass*

          I think there’s a vast difference in the strength and meaning of the word between countries. It’s a common word in Australian English but it is very rarely used in an offensive way (as in I’m yet to hear it used like that). We use it like “drat” and also in the context of “poor bugger” to express sympathy for someone who is feeling sick or experiencing bad luck. I remember I had a high school science teacher visiting from the States express real shock when a classmate knocked over their beaker and followed up with “bugger!”. He went on and on about how offensive the term is and we were all listening to him in complete puzzlement.

        3. Emi.*

          My mother once referred to microbes as “little buggers” in a fifth-grade essay, because she thought it meant “bugs.” Her teacher was … not pleased.

          But in (some parts of) the US, it means something a long the lines of “cutiebug,” as I discovered after hearing one of the nice, charming homeschool dads from church use it for his toddler.

          1. Retail HR Guy*

            Yep, grew up in Oklahoma and “bugger” the noun was perfectly fine and was used as you describe, calling kids “little buggers” and the like. The verb “to bugger” was a different word with a totally different meaning.

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Sorry, I should clarify that I know OP#5 isn’t the one using “bloody” in regular conversation—it’s the slightly pretentious coworker. I just had a blinking marquee image in my mind saying “Noooooooo!”

      3. Blossom*

        Hmm, I don’t consider “bugger” that offensive. That, and “bloody (hell)” are my expletives of choice – because I consider them mild. I wouldn’t raise an eyebrow if someone else said them. Tone obviously matters; anything said in an angry or aggressive tone will obviously come across differently to a half-whispered “bugger” of mild frustration.
        There are some swear words I absolutely never say – generally anything toilet-based, as I just find them ugly, but I’m aware that they are generally considered mild. I will use the F word very, very occasionally, and never at work.

        1. Blossom*

          Oh, and I wouldn’t particularly think anything of an American using those words, if it was happening in my (UK) office – simply because they’re normal words to me and, even though I suppose I know they’re not used there if I think about it, it probably wouldn’t occur to me in the moment. I do get irritated by my (English) friends using American phrases, because it sounds pretentious and false in their mouths, so I understand the feeling!

      4. blushingflower*

        Yes, sometimes Americans will use British slang/curse words in order to fulfill the need to curse without actually cursing. You’ll also find that British characters on American shows can say “bloody”, “bugger”, and “sod” without any censorship, even in situations where an American character would not be able to say words of similar strength/meaning.

        This is also making me think of how Mel Brooks used INCREDIBLY dirty Yiddish slang in his films but the censors didn’t know the language so he could get away with it.

    3. Cambridge Comma*

      If an American said ‘bloody’ to me I’d assume it was a pisstake of my accent.

      1. Jo*

        Hah, “taking the piss” was something I had to learn – the first time I heard it I was very confused because as far as I knew, the person referred to wasn’t literally “taking a piss” i.e., peeing, which is the only context I knew for it.

      2. OxfordCommonSense*

        I’m a U.K. expat who has been living in the U.S. for almost twenty years. If someone in my office used “bloody hell,” internally (not with clients) I would not be offended by the words. I think the perceived level of severity is a generational thing. However, there is nothing guaranteed to piss me off like an American using a Britishism as an affectation. I would think they were a right pillock, plonker, numpty or, if I were feeling particularly lairy, a cockwomble.

        1. JeanB*

          Oh dear. I’ve been saying bloody hell for 35 years. (American here) Hopefully people don’t see it as an affectation – I just read a LOT of British books. However, I don’t use any of those other Britishisms!

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I sort of love numpty. But of course would not use it, as I am not Scottish and have no idea how to use it without sounding like an offensive bigot.

          1. GingerHR*

            Not Scottish either. Use it when someone’s being a bit of an idiot. It’s satisfying, as it fits the bill but isn’t as harsh sounding as something like ‘dick’.

            1. Bonky*

              I’m English, and I use “numpty”. One of my favourites is the very Lincolnshire “wazzock”, which comes down from my Mum’s side of the family.

          2. TheFormerAstronomer*

            It mostly denotes a kind of friendly-but-frustrated exasperation – normally at yourself or someone you know. Calling someone a f—ing numpty is much stronger though.

            1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              I thought it was similar to the Australian “bogun”? (but maybe with less of the class connotation?)

    4. The Database Overlord*

      English guy here bemused by all these comments. “Bloody hell” is about as mild as you can get while still being ‘edgy’. It’s nothing like the F-word, but is more like “Oh my god” without any religious overtones. While I wouldn’t use it around important clients, I wouldn’t have any concerns if my co-workers were using it.

        1. Bagpuss*

          ‘bloody hell’ as a swear word doesn’t.
          I believe that the etymology of ‘bloody’ is thought to be a contraction of ‘by our lady’, so a religious reference to the Virgin Mary, but it no longer has that connotation or connection to religion.
          although in general we in the UK tend to be fairly relaxed about things, I do know people in the older generation who would find ‘oh my god’ more offensive than ‘bloody hell’ because one is seen to have religious connotations / be taking the lord’s name in vain, and the other isn’t. My 86 year old, church warden, cousin will in extreme cases (you know, like when she was being picked up of the road after being hit by a car) use ‘hell’ or ‘bloody hell’ but would never use ‘oh god’, for that reason.

      2. Mookie*

        Yes. This is alien to me. I couldn’t get through a workday without blue language (and bloody, bugger, feck, bollocks, pleidhc, wanker, and blimey and the like are not ‘blue’ in the least). Strewth and zounds, however, is just offensively corny.

          1. Mookie*

            I will fumble badly if I try to suss out an IPA approximation, but something approaching “plighk”? Sometimes multi-syllabic (really, just a typical diphthong), depending on the contents of the speaker’s stomach. I’m not entirely sure of its antecedents / roots / etymology, but for my family it’s a less audibly dissonant, more pleasing-to-the-ear substitute for eejit.

    5. Bryce*

      Huh, I’ll keep that in mind. I tend to use it as a muttering word, sorta one step above “oh bother”. Never thought it could get me into trouble.

      1. JessaB*

        I like piffle so much that I had a boss that insisted it wasn’t a word. So I photocopied the dictionary and made up a fancy frame and hung it above my desk with a little label on it that said “It is too a word.”

    6. Bagpuss*

      I am English, and ‘Bloody, or ‘Bloody Hell’ are not strong expletives in the UK. They are expletives, but very much at the bottom end of the scale. It’s a long, long, way below ‘fuck’ (or ‘fucking hell’). I’d put it at a similar level to ‘damn’ but it is slightly more emphatic.

      I very rarely swear at all (partly because it saves having to think about whether or not your vocab. context-appropriate, but mostly because it has *way* more impact if people don’t expect it of you!)

      I don’t think that many people would be offended by hearing it. I wouldn’t use it in a meeting with clients as I wouldn’t use any expletives in those situations, but would have no issue with it being used in the workplace other than that (unless, of course, I had reason to believe that a particular colleague had a specific problem with it).

    7. Casuan*

      OP5, as Alison noted on her updated reply, “bloody hell” is a tricky curse phrase.
      The nutshell is that the phrase is indeed a curse and if it offends you then you can ask him not to use in your presence. If it offends several others as well, then you should ask him to stop. If he doesn’t then talk with your manager.
      As for your clients, tell your colleague that you researched the phrase & learnt that to some it’s a serious curse & for others it’s quite mild. Suggest that he refrain from using the phrase around clients. That said, your relationship isn’t too close then you probably should let it go.
      Actually you might want to give your manager a heads-up on your research so if someone else complains then she won’t be caught too off guard.

    8. Silver*

      In Australia bloody hell is so mild it was even used in a tourism campaign a few years ago.
      For those interested you can find a number of postmortems and critiques of the campaign by searching for the slogan – “So where the bloody hell are you?”.

      1. Rebeck*

        There was also an ad campaign that used ‘bugger’. Repeatedly. (I suspect one could google ‘Toyota bugger’ and find the ad. In Australia both ‘bugger’ and ‘bloody hell’ are so mild that *I* use them. And I generally consider myself a non-swearer.

        1. Parenthetically*

          Yes, my husband who has fairly Strong Feelings about Swearing, says “bugger.” “Bugger it” is a very favorite mild swear.

      2. RVA Cat*

        Using it in tourist slogan reminds me of the internet-infamous Canadian health department’s Vitamin D campaign…”Everyone needs the D!”

      3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I don’t mean to be rude, but isn’t swearing a required skill in order to qualify as Australian?

        I’m teasing, but I will say that swearing seemed to be less taboo anytime I was in Oz or talking to Aussie relatives (especially the younger ones). It’s kind of like the joke about speaking Mexican Spanish versus Guatemalan Spanish.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Not to my (Australian) husband, but yes, very very much in my American context. I can’t imagine the word “damn” in a kids’ show, for instance. Which reminds me… the Simpsons made a joke about mild swears (the only ones they were allowed on an evening show) years ago when Bart and his school friends got stranded together. His remark: “We’re going to live like kings! Damn hell ass kings!”

      2. BF50*

        I had a friend in college from the bible belt and he found damn to be much more offensive than the F word due to the religious context. If you said damn it, he took it absolutely literally and he was offended by it, though I do think he used other curse words.

        I found that very strange. Maybe it was his particular church?

        That said, yes, I think most americans would consider it a mild expletive. I would not be pleased if my toddlers said it, but I probably wouldn’t notice if a coworker said it.

        1. Parenthetically*

          Ooh, that reminds me of a catholic classmate of mine who used every swear in English and Spanish, regularly, and let’s say did not align his sexual behavior with catholic teaching, but wouldn’t use “God” as a swear. “F***ing gosh dammit” made me laugh every time.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I had the same experience. I’m not Christian, so “damn” has no religious meaning to me. But I used it around extremely religious friends/colleagues, once, and they also reacted as though it were more offensive than the f-word. I found the same was true in parts of the Bible Belt, so I think it’s kind of a “know your audience” sort of thing.

          1. N.J.*

            From a purely philosophical perspective, damning something or someone is wishing that person to hell to suffer eternal torment and the like. I use the word regularly but not around my more religious (Christian) friends and family. Really cool nauseating the literal meaning of damn or someone being damned, is actually kind of a heavy thing to wish upon someone.

            1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              Oh, I understand that, now. I just didn’t when I was younger because my faith tradition has no hell, so the idea of sending someone for an eternity of suffering didn’t have purchase for me. But I also never really say “damn” when referring to a person, so in context, its literal meaning is completely inapplicable to whatever I’m referring to.

        3. Teclatrans*

          I think there has been some cultural shift. Growing up in CA ~40 years ago, I was aware that damn, hell, Jesus Christ, etc. were genuinely offensive to lots of people, and found that scatalogical swears were preferable because they offended stuffiness and conformity without offending beliefs and traditions. Nowadays I have little awareness of the profanity in some of my swears, unless I am around someone I know to be a member of a socially conservative church.

          1. Betsy*

            I have grown up hearing “damn,” “goddamn,” and “ass” on TV, so while I knew they were rude and you don’t say them in front of your teacher or your grandma, I didn’t think they were horrible words to be avoided at all costs; so of course, at my second ever job I misplaced my wallet and muttered, “oh goddamn it,” in front of a customer… She gave me quite the earful, left, came back, yelled at me again, and then insisted on meeting my boss so she could tell him “what REALLY happened,” implying I’d lie about it, as if the whole thing wasn’t recorded on the security cameras.

            My point being, no matter how gentle a cuss you think you’re dropping, there will always be somebody who’s gonna get super extra about it. I’d recommend something that lets you get anger out while also making people laugh, like shouting the names of foods you like, or my personal favorite, said very loudly and bitterly, “God bless America!”

      3. VicCatLady*

        When I was in a play in high school in the U.S., I was told that we were allowed to say “Damn it” on stage if the script called for it, but not okay to say “Damn you.” The rationale was that it was allowable to wish damnation, in the literal sense, on an inanimate object but not on a person.

    10. someone101*

      OP#5 from my part of the uk, I would say ‘bloody’ and ‘bloody hell’ are more class related in regards to levels of severity. For example I’m considered working class which means (generally speaking) we hold jobs such as cleaners, fast food workers etc. I used to work for an upper class family (think private school, born into money, owns a multitude of properties etc) perhaps for our American friends the best explanation I can give to emphasize the difference between us would be someone who went to Harvard as opposed to someone who went to clown college! Anyway, for me bloody hell carries no weight as an expletive, it is no where near the F word (although to point out where I’m from that is also used casually although obviously restricted when at work). However, the family I used to work for were raised where bloody hell is considered an expletive and it is absolutely socially unacceptable to use it in an everyday setting. So what I would suggest is perhaps err on the side of caution and assume your English clients are high class and ‘bloody hell’ would not be a casual expletive for them since (generally speaking) someone like that would be more likely to hold down a job that deals on multinational levels. I hope this has made some sort of sense!

      1. OP5 Writer*

        Thanks for the clarification. My gut told me it’s wrong wrong. I have visited England and used to work for a (well-bred) English man, so that’s where my “gut” comes from. In my limited “circle” I never heard “bloody” used in conversation. My context for hearing it was stand-up comedy or a few British TV shows rather than anyone I knew in real life. In general, people at our workplace wouldn’t use curse words that would be considered “low class” in the U.S. but our idea of “class” is rather loose here.

        I’ll keep your comments in mind in the future.

        1. LilyPearl*

          Interestingly I have always thought of aristocratic types (scruffy country house, dogs, horses) as very relaxed about casual swearing, and middle/ lower-middle (think Hyacinth Bucket in Keeping Up Appearances) as much more easily offended by it.

          1. someone101*

            I agree Lilypearl, in fact it sparked a debate between myself and the owner of the house as I said ‘bloody hell’ when I nearly tripped over instead of (the more usual for me) f***. He was mortified and shocked I’d used it so casually, whereas I’d assumed the stereotypical ‘bloody hell old boy’ type language was acceptable. It broke down some barriers though and we had a laugh about stereotypes. And yes my aunt is a classic bucket/bouquet and tries her hardest to keep up with her catalogue life however she does sometimes forget herself and slips back into her common vocabulary!

      2. Bonky*

        To my great discomfort, I’m very close to what you’re describing as high-class English. (My nanny worked for Mark Thatcher, I get invites to the Palace a few times a year, my husband’s on the honours list. I do not own a horse.) I wouldn’t bat an eyelid at “bloody hell”, although my mother might be convinced to do a very mild blink if she heard a very small child say it.

        It’s of the order of the sort of thing I say if my sausage roll comes out of the oven a bit warmer than I thought it’d be.

        1. someone101*

          Bonky you last comment regarding sausage rolls had me in stitches so thank you for making my day there! It’s interesting because I think generation plays alot into at well, the grandmother and her son (the father of the household) were around 70 and 50 respectively, and it was a no go for them to use it, however the children who varied in age between 9 and 15 would mutter it under their breath and the mum would laugh. However I think she married into the money and came from slightly less so again, perhaps class. It’s a strange one!

    11. BananaPants*

      A coworker is married to a Brit and in their context “bloody hell” is not REALLY a strong curse. “Bloody” is quite mild, comparable to “damn” or “damned” – like, “this bloody computer won’t reboot” is basically the same as “this damned computer won’t reboot”.

      Caveat: I hear f-bombs dropped in the office with some frequency, although never around executives or senior management. The bar for profanity is set sort of low…

  6. This is confusing*

    3. yea, this isn’t ok of you – you are in fact misgendering her. She’s told you her pronouns, please respect them. And you straight up asked her if she’s trans? And decided that because she’s cis you don’t have to respect her pronouns?? You’re probably making her feel quite uncomfortable, because you’re showing time and again that you don’t respect her. She’s not having specific pronouns /at/ you.

  7. neverjaunty*

    OP #3, yes, you are misgendering your co-worker, and you are doing so in a pretty aggressive way. When she tells you that she feels misgendered by the pronouns you’re using, you well-actually at her. And now you’re trying to get her in trouble at work?

    I understand, you’re happier now, you’re out, you’d prefer that gender-neutral/genderless pronouns be the default. But you seem to have made this co-worker a substitute for your dislike of how gendered our society is, and not only is that a jerk move, it’s going to cause you trouble at work.

    1. SEAS*

      Plus, like, I’m pretty sure that OP would not appreciate being referred to as “it,” even though “it” is a gender neutral pronoun, because 1) ze has already stated hir’s preferred pronouns and those don’t include “it” and 2) “it” is considered an extremely rude way to refer to a human being. So this “I’m not misgendering this person, I’m using gender-neutral pronouns, not incorrect ones,” excuse is already total bull because it’s clearly not JUST about the gender (or lack thereof or neutrality thereof) implied by the pronouns.

  8. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

    OP#4, your coworker is not in the wrong, here. It’s one thing to have used inaccurate pronouns because of how you perceive someone (although I’ll note as an aside that using gender-neutral pronouns because you perceive someone to be transgender is problematic). But if that person has told you their preferred pronouns, you need to respect their request. It is not exclusionary or silencing to non-binary, transgender or genderqueer folks for a person to assert their gender identity.

    Isn’t the purpose of an inclusive workplace the ability for each person to have the freedom, support, and respect to be open and comfortable with their identity? Inclusion does not mean that people must share one identity—inclusion and equity requires that we creating space and opportunities for diverse and different people. Sameness is not inclusion, even if the sameness you’re imposing on your coworker feels more virtuous to you.

    Although your coworker may appear “gender non-conforming” (I hate that phrase), they’ve told you they are cisgender and have asked you to acknowledge their identity when you speak to them. I’m really concerned that you think your coworker’s request to assert their preferred pronouns is somehow an attack on you that makes you feel uncomfortable and is worthy of escalation. I’m struggling to find a kind way to explain why this worries me, but I’m at a loss for words.

    1. Leah*

      That’s a really good way of putting it. I also wonder how many of the coworkers who are supposedly fine with OP’s behavior are just afraid to speak up.

      2. Eohippus*

        This. There are probably some who are afraid of it becoming an HR issue if they try to push back on this.

        1. Lance*

          And rightly so, from the sound of things, considering OP’s wanting to do just that over this (non-)issue. Please, OP, read these comments, understand multiple sides of the equation, and stop this.

      3. paul*

        I’d be mildly annoyed but probably not enough to bother making a fuss, so I can imagine others would be too.

      4. KTZee*

        Yeah – if someone was doing this to me at work (using gender neutral pronouns without my request or consent) it would probably not be a hill I was willing to die on in terms of constantly correcting that person, but I would start minimizing my interactions with that individual both personally AND professionally, to include avoiding staffing such a person onto my projects. So this kind of behavior could be damaging to one’s career, even if people aren’t actively pushing back on it.

    2. neverjaunty*

      Because it’s making the co-worker a scapegoat for cisgendered privilege, and punishing her.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I agree; I’m having a hard time capturing in words that it’s not ok to use your position as someone who identifies with a “subordinated” social group to turn around and punish someone in a “dominant” social group for not identifying the way you want them to. It’s a really rotten and awful thing to do, and I don’t think OP#3 understands why (or maybe ze does but doesn’t care because ze thinks their p.o.v. is morally/philosophically superior?).

        1. Dizzy Steinway*

          I don’t necessarily think being a cis woman puts you in a dominant social group.

          1. Dizzy Steinway*

            I realise others may disagree. But I’m inclined to reserve that spot for cis men.

            1. Mookie*

              When the bulk of violence and violent rhetoric against trans people is gendered, feminized, and aimed at trans women’s bodies and identities, cis women are privileged at that particular intersection.

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Certainly being cisgendered is a dominant social group. You can be in some dominant social groups while not being in others (otherwise you’d have white women, for example, denying being in a dominant social group because of sexism, while ignoring their privilege as white people).

          3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            I agree it’s not a dominant social group in the typology of all social groups, but, at least in most places I’ve lived in the U.S., I’ve seen a relative power differential (with lots of caveats and nuances and no absolutes, of course).

          4. Leah*

            You’re right, but I think here it’s used in terms of comparing trans/nonconforming people vs. cis women, not in the whole scheme of things that would include cis men.

        2. Cupquake*

          I think it’s that everyone has a right to be referred to by the pronouns they choose; so if you are non-binary/trans/genderqueer, etc. and you want to be referred to by neutral pronouns or not the pronouns someone might assume, then you have the right to do so. At the same time, cis people 100% have that same right. I’m cis, and if someone used gender-neutral pronouns when they first met me, I wouldn’t mind, but if I explicitly told them “it’s fine to use female pronouns, in fact, I would prefer it” and they didn’t respect that, I would feel like they were being dismissive of me? In the same way that it is dismissive when cis people refuse to use others preferred pronouns.

        3. LisaLee*

          Part of it is that is very gatekeep-y, like the coworker has to prove her queer cred in order to choose her pronouns. We don’t actually have any idea if she’s queer or trans or not, just that she’d rather not share that with the OP. (I also think this “you must be THIS oppressed to enter” thing is something that crops up a lot in the queer community. IDK why, but I see it often).

          1. all aboard the anon train*

            Honestly, I gave up on a lot of queer groups or certain areas of social media because there’s this uncomfortable situation some of them get into where it feels like everyone is just trying to say their identity has it worse than someone else’s identity. Or, like you said, you have to prove how queer you really are before you can be taken seriously.

            It’s exhausting. I know other people have it worse than I do, but that doesn’t make my struggle any less worthy.

              3. Gadfly*

                A friend of my sister’s jokes that as a poor, black, disabled, transgender lesbian she at the least deserves a medal in the Oppression Olympics

                1. Thlayli*

                  She should find organisations that have affirmative action in their hiring processes or are trying to be more diverse for political reasons. They’d hire her in a heartbeat!

                  Just imagine a team of her, and 3 cis white guys. “How dare you say we aren’t diverse? We are 25% female, 25% black, 25% trans, 25% gay, and 25% disabled.”

                2. Mirax*

                  Thlayli, I know you meant that as a joke, but given how often minorities are made to feel like or explicitly accused of being “the diversity hire” instead of someone who got their job on their own merits, I think it’s in bad taste.

                3. Thlayli*

                  I apologise for offending you. I replied to a joke with a joke in what I thought was similar taste. I guess I misread the sense of humour.

            2. Mookie*

              Or, like you said, you have to prove how queer you really are before you can be taken seriously.

              Paging bisexuals, your table’s ready. Be prepared to have the waitstaff undermine your every decision and try to convince you you only need the surf or the turf, not both at once, so stop being selfish.

              1. Gadget Hackwrench*

                Non-Binary people, Ace people, and Bi/Pan people are natural allies for EXACTLY this reason. Eff the gatekeeepers.

                2. all aboard the anon train*

                  Generally, maybe, but all those identities seem to have serious issues with one another on certain social media sites (tumblr in particular is pretty awful with it). I’ve encountered one too many arguments about someone’s identity being “queerer” than someone else’s in the non-binary/ace/bi/pan/etc. areas or calling out one of those identities for being bigoted because they are attracted to/not attracted to certain things, etc..

                  The latter seems to be a big issue between some bi and pan people (which baffles me since I was always told bisexuality was attraction to more than one gender/sexuality, not that it relied on only the male/female binary, and that’s how I’ve defined it for me personally. But this was before pansexual became a mainstream term, I guess)

                3. Kit M. Harding*

                  And then you get people like me: gender-confused biromantic demisexual. I’ve hit the trifecta! (And I’m usually not welcome in *any* of the queer communities because of it; I’m in the weird edge cases for every permutation of them.)

                4. Gadget Hackwrench*

                  You’re on a different tumblr than I am then Anon Train. Cause that’s exactly where the alliance I’m referring to is. The Bi/Pan/Nonbinary Brigade is all up in the Acephobes business on the regular. (Mostly because they sound like a load of Binarist TERF douchenozzels.)

              2. paul*

                I’m as het as they come, and for some reason bi erasure in LGBT community really royally chaps my ass. It’s like…of all people, you can’t understand how someone’s sexuality might not fit norms? I’ve got a couple of bi friends and maybe that’s part of it but I just don’t get how it’s hard to grasp.

                I figure if I can like a variety of different female body types, they can like a broader variety of body types.

              3. Marillenbaum*

                Thank you! And God help you if you want more surf than turf, or vice versa, because you must want both in equal measure at all times to count.

                1. Jadelyn*

                  You must also take exactly one bite of each, alternating bites of equal size in order for your meal to count as including both surf and turf.

                2. General Ginger*

                  And if you’ve found that really awesome surf (or turf?), be prepared to be booted from the restaurant. It’s a surf AND turf place, dontcha know.

                3. VicCatLady*

                  “You must also take exactly one bite of each, alternating bites of equal size in order for your meal to count as including both surf and turf.”

                  No, no, that would make you alternately a surfist and a turfist. You have to have both surf and turf in every bite if you’re going to be a “real” bi.

                1. Nessie*

                  There’s a “surf and turf” and “selfish/shellfish” dad joke in there somewhere.

              5. Nobody Here By That Name*

                Also for the waitstaff to never call your name when your table is ready, since everyone knows bisexuals don’t exist.

                (I say as a bi woman myself)

                1. Gadget Hackwrench*

                  If you think you’re invisible try being Pan and Nonbinary at the same time. We’re practically super-powered invisible! LOL.

          2. Allie*

            And some people don’t WANT to “prove their queer cred”. For some people who are transgender, the “trans” part isn’t the primary identity, the gender is. A friend of mine is very clear that “I don’t identify as trans and I don’t want that to be how I’m presented. I’m a man.” I think that makes sense for him. Not everyone transitions the same way and I think that should be respected.

            2. Detective Amy Santiago*

              That is such a good point. I have a friend whose teenager is planning to switch schools in the fall so they can transition and present as their preferred gender to people who don’t know them.

      2. Dizzy Steinway*

        And because it’s implying that the colleague is prejudiced and should be reported.

        OP, I’m happy to use whatever pronouns anyone wants but I’d like the same respect in return. Wanting you to use female pronouns doesn’t mean this person isn’t cool with how you identify yourself – it means they’re not cool with how you’re identifying them.

        Sometimes other people make different meaning from a situation than we do. To you, gender-neutral pronouns are preferred, but this colleague feels differently.

      3. Gazebo Slayer*

        Describing it as making the co-worker a scapegoat for cis privilege is absolutely perfect. I’ve seen this scapegoat dynamic play out across other axes as well – a few women who make specific male individuals scapegoats for male privilege, a few people of color who make specific white individuals scapegoats for white privilege, etc. The psychology of it is understandable, but it’s crappy behavior.

        1. Someone*

          Besides, that kind of behavior really isn’t helpful at all, as it results in resentment rather than understanding.

          I’m a feminist, and while I hate sexist men (and women) I have a special kind of hate reserved for radical feminists who act as if the Western world was still stuck in the 50s in regards to gender equality and treat all men as sexist.
          Both is very much NOT the case (though there’s certainly still work to do) and with their radicalism they do not help gender equality – quite the opposite, I feel. They make a perfect target for sexist men who love to complain about whiny women and annoy those who actually have progressive views. Radical feminists do. Not. Help. They just make things worse. They just give people reasons to hate feminism.

          The OP does something similar. Not quite as radical, mind you, but by shoving gender-neutral pronouns down other people’s throats no matter their preference, they are likely to annoy even supportive people. It would certainly annoy me.
          Society at large might still be disrespectful towards people who are trans and such like, but that isn’t changed by being disrespectful towards cis-gendered individuals who, apparently, did nothing wrong… except for being in the dominant group. Of which they had as much choice as the OP had in belonging to a minority.

      4. Brogrammer*

        This is an amazing way of putting it. I’m keeping this in my back pocket for future reference.

      5. Sam*

        THANK YOU! I’m pleased to see that not everyone is assuming OP’s intentions are innocent when it is so very obvious that they’re not.

    3. LemonLymon*

      Well said, PCBH!

      Another thing that caught me off guard was that OP stated that when Coworker insisted on being called “she” that, “I thought this person was transgender” and “didn’t want to offend or upset if this were the case.” I take this to mean that if Coworker WERE transgender than it would be okay to use gendered pronouns but for cisgender corworkers gender neutral pronouns were most appropriate. Use the pronouns the person requests. That’s the most respectful way to approach it.

      1. Dizzy Steinway*

        And the best question to ask someone is: what pronouns would you like me to use?

        OP if you want everyone to feel safe and respected, start and end with that question.

        1. Chalupa Batman*

          In my field, it’s starting to become more common to see people include “my preferred pronouns are she/her/hers” in their introduction at conferences and such. I hope it becomes a common practice, both socially and in the workplace. I have a trans* friend in transition who uses both male and female pronouns rather than gender neutral- when presenting as “Jake” we use he/his, when presenting as “Jenn” we use she/hers. For people that know this person in both presentations, it takes some time to get used to. Luckily, my friend is very patient with us. :)

    4. Gaia*

      I agree. It made me really uncomfortable. I believe strongly that cisgender people can and should play an important role in the fight for non-binary, transgender and genderqueer rights and the OP is coming off as if the coworker is less worthy because she is cisgender. As someone said above, the coworker is not preferring specific pronouns *at* the OP. This is not an attack on transgender, non-binary and gender queer people. It is particularly upsetting that the OP would have been okay using specific pronouns *if* the coworker had been transgender

      Also, OP, you ASKED her? You ASKED your coworker if she was transgender – do you realize how out of line that is? It is not your business as her *coworker* Let me be extra clear: whether or not anyone’s genitals at birth (or any point, really) match their gender identity? Not. Your. Business. and not a workplace conversation.

      1. Tempest*

        With some of the issues in the world today re bathroom use, anyone would do well to just refuse to answer what genitals they have in the first place and continue to just walk into the restroom that matches the gender they are. (Using are to indicate that if you tell me you’re a female and you look in any way like you are a female then I will happily know you use the female loos, even if you ultimately have a penis as said penis is none of my business when you are clearly a woman in your heart and mind and you deserve to use the bathroom that makes you at home in your body.)

    5. emmylou*

      As a queer cisperson (with tons of trans* friends) who usually fears the commentariat on topics like this, can I say how much I appreciate the thoughtfulness with which this discussion has taken place, and how people are engaged with *curiosity* about things they don’t know a ton about. I really appreciate this little sphere of the internets.

      1. ???*

        I don’t ask this to sound ignorant (I genuinely want to know) as I am learning all sorts of new things on this thread. But how is queer cisperson defined?

          1. LawBee*

            It would also include pansexual and other sexualities, not just gay/lesbian. It short – not exclusively heterosexual.

            1. paul*

              True. I grew up in a world where queer = homosexual and it’s hard for me to remember it’s changed. sorry :(

        2. SEAS*

          Not to speak for emmylou, but I would assume that it generally refers to a person who identifies with the biological sex they were born with, but is not heterosexual.

          1. emmylou*

            that is absolutely correct, SEAS — I’m a cis-woman (identify with the gender that the world has always perceived me to have) but my sexual orientation is queer — i.e., not heterosexual. I have a constellation of people I find attractive, but don’t identify as “bi” for multiple reasons, including the fact that it’s a binary that essentializes male/female and doesn’t account for the full gender spectrum. As well as the fact that I “culturally” identify as queer (my politics, my primary community, etc).

            1. Jadelyn*

              Can we maybe not with criticizing an identity you aren’t part of? A lot of people have that misconception about bisexuality, but you are absolutely wrong that bisexuality “essentializes male/female”. I say this as a bi NB person who’s attracted to, as you say, a constellation of people, including male, female, and NB folks.

              1. Jessie the First (or second)*

                I didn’t see it as a criticism of bisexuality (I am bi, and maybe I’m not feeling the criticism because hey look! Someone notices we exist!, but my identification with it has been on the basis of being attracted to men and women in their more binary forms of expression). As opposed to, say, pansexuality, which seems to cover more of what emmylou is talking about.

                1. Jessie the First (or second)*

                  Oh, for an edit! I see what you mean, just that I don’t think it was intended as criticism. There are not easy ways to talk about gender and attraction, because it is All So Very Complicated and Personal, and it is especially hard on screens.

                2. emmylou*

                  yes, not a criticism of bi identity, but that I think the framing of “bi” as a label reinforces the notion of gender binaries.

              2. emmylou*

                And I would add that most people glancing casually at me would interpret my choices of partners over time in such a way to interpret me as “bi,” and it doesn’t bother me, but it’s not a label I choose because the very label implies that one is attracted to “both” genders (male/female) rather than acknowledging the spectrum through which I view gender (not two but many).

              3. Jadelyn*

                @both emmylou and Jessie – it just bothers me because it’s the same old “bi means two!!!” in a slightly fancier rhetorical coat, and as a nonbinary bisexual person it grates on me to be told that my own identity is somehow inherently undermining my other own identity.

            2. Andy*

              Bisexuality has a long history of being a label claimed by people who were very thoroughly entrenched in the NB world (attracted to NB people, NB themselves or both). The same way “biphobia” does not literally mean “fear of the number two”, bisexuality does not literally mean “wanting to have sex with two [genders].” Historically, it *has* been *the* word used by those who were aware they were attracted to NB people.

              You can claim whatever label you like (and I do appreciate the flexibility of “queer” and the slightly different connotations of “pansexual”) but don’t tell me that bisexuals such as myself were blithely ignoring NB people for decades up until “pansexuality” came along in (as far as I can tell) the early 2000s.

    6. Also nonbinary*

      I prefer to use “gender-nonconforming” to describe myself; why do you hate it?

  9. Dizzy Steinway*

    #1 There may also be data collection and privacy issues with creating your own survey.

    Also. Some of our departments that work via a helpdesk system have a survey that gets sent automatically after a ticket is closed. I don’t think anyone ever fills them in.

    1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I wonder if it might make more sense for OP#1 to ask their manager to consider facilitating a 360 or anonymous peer review. So not a survey, necessarily, but an incorporation of feedback from the folks OP works with. This approach was standard practice at a prior job where we had three sites and only 1 IT person for all departments at our site (about 50-60 people). Our IT person’s manager was at another site, and gathering anonymized comments (usually in person and with the coworker’s consent) helped ensure the IT person’s annual review was useful.

      1. Kj*

        I think that is the best idea. That sort of review can be very useful for folks with lots of internal-facing responsibilities. Often, managers don’t see the day-to-day of IT because they interact only with it when they need it.

    2. Gadfly*

      OldJob the IT department did hat, but it was a broken link. They were shocked when I finally bothered to ask them about it. Not that no one had told them for possibly years, but that someone finally did…

      2. Manders*

        The irony of that happening with the IT department’s survey is just too delicious.

        I’m a fan of surveys and feedback in general, so I feel OP on this one. I’d say that it’s probably not appropriate to ask for formal feedback from your peers about your own personal performance, but engineering integration is definitely the kind of field where you need to check periodically that everything’s working as expected and everyone’s needs are met.

    3. Vicki*

      > There may also be data collection and privacy issues with creating your own survey.

      Meh. Also, bah humbug. DOn;t make any of the fields required. Never ask persnal questions.

      Anyhoo, I did this at LastJob. People filled it out. It was very useful.

      It’s not “so not normally done”. It’s just unusual. You’re an engineer.

      Have fun.

  10. shirt for brains*

    OP #3:
    It’s basic politeness to refer to people with the terms they request. It would be rude to insist on calling someone Ms. Smith if they tell you they prefer Miss Smith, even if you prefer Ms. as a feminist alternative. It’s rude to insist on calling someone Richard if they tell you they prefer Dick, even if you think that nickname has unavoidably smutty overtones.

    Defaulting to gender neutral pronouns when you don’t know what people prefer, or if they haven’t expressed a preference, is fine. Insisting on using them for a particular person when they have expressed a preference is not fine.

    1. Lionheart*

      Those are great analogies.
      I prefer to go by Miss, and I have had lots of people correct me because “Ms is more professional”. It’s irritating. I have also had people insist on referring to me by a “more professional” version of my name (think ‘Kate’, instead of ‘Katie’) even though it’s not actually my name.

      I try not to make a big deal about it, but it is annoying. It makes me feel as though others think they have more of a right to my identity than I do.

      Imagine if you called someone the wrong pronoun by mistake, and they told you they prefer a different one. I would be MORTIFIED, and would make sure to never make that mistake again. I can’t imagine arguing with them that the pronoun I used was better, and then taking them to HR over it.

      1. Bookworm*

        My name is one that isn’t pronounced phonetically. All the sounds are easy enough to make – it’s not a difficult name – but I pronounce as it would sound in my mother’s native tongue (think like Spanish Jose, which people – even in the US – generally say with the ‘h’ sound).

        I once had a classmate insist on pronouncing it phonetically, adding “we’re in America now”. Over the years I’ve had many people pronounce it wrong accidentally or unthinkingly, and never cared. But that person who did it *on principle* really frustrated me.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I’m so sorry—that classmate was being a jerk. Hopefully they grew up and learned just how much of an ass they were being.

        2. My name is boring*

          Oh a friend of mine had the same issue in school, our TEACHER kept ‘correcting’ her on her own name.

          We were in HIGHSCHOOL. She was 14!

          1. blackcat*

            Ugh, that happened to me in the 4th grade with my middle name. My mom called and complained. Teacher insisted we were wrong, didn’t know how to read. What was even more odd is that she insisted on using all three names with students. The poor Chinese girl who only had two names cried a lot, since the teacher insisted she was lying about not having a middle name.

            3 weeks later (back in the pre-internet days, so this took quite some doing), I showed up with a Scottish history book that included the notation for how to pronounce it phonetically.

            I was intentionally a pain in the ass to that teacher all year. And my mom cheered me on. My mom and I are generally good people, but I inherited her spiteful streak.

            Refusing to call people what they call themselves makes you an ass. Sorry, OP. You need to knock it off.

            1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              This is such a bullying, condescending, dick move. I had a teacher who did this to one of my childhood friends. She insisted on calling her “Jennifer” and not her actual name, “Jenny.” The catch is that “Jenny” is her legal name, and nowhere on any official document has she ever been identified as “Jennifer.” But it was the same condescending “you immigrants don’t understand enough English to even name your child properly” thing.

          2. Liane*

            Grrr, these stories of people, kids even, being told they don’t know what their own names are. I go with the idea that everyone knows how to pronounce and spell their own name.

              1. Noobtastic*

                I absolutely adore that sketch. It really shows just how offensive this behavior is, and you know that the writers had to have experienced exactly this treatment from oodles of white people.

                I learned long ago that when it comes to names, spelling is really just a guideline. You let the other person TELL you their name, and if you’re unsure, you ask them to repeat it, multiple times, if necessary, until you get it right. Then you memorize the spelling, which might bear no resemblance to the sounds, at all.

          3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            I had a professor do that to me in college. I happened to share a name with the main character of a book we were studying, and after I butted heads with him a couple times, he would aggressively pronounce her name the way I didn’t want mine pronounced, while staring straight at me.

            Talk about jerkitude.

          4. Noobtastic*

            Oh, my gosh! You too?

            My friend was at summer camp, and was ten, but the camp “teacher” (I don’t think she actually taught the children anything they needed or wanted to learn), actually confronted her parents about it, insisting that my friend’s name was pronounced THIS way, and that was all there was to it!

            Only with my friend, her name *was* pronounced phonetically, just the way it is spelled, and the teacher insisted that one of those vowels should be silent.

      2. Sarah*

        Similarly, I have some friends who apparently just don’t like that I changed my last name after getting married and insist on using my maiden name. Look, I get it’s not your thing (and I don’t suddenly append your husband’s last name onto yours!) but this is my name and people need to use it!

    2. Daria*

      Though I think it’s worth pointing out that even though this is a new job, the OP probably does know these people by now- they’re hirs colleagues, not strangers! (I hope that is the correct possessive form. My Google research was conflicting.) It sounds like the majority of the office is cis gender. So while it’s a kind impulse to want to be inclusive to the other people the OP thinks may also be non-binary, I’d be willing to bet that the rest of the office uses masculine or feminine pronouns and they’re current some degree of perplexed/annoyed as to why you’re insisting on referring to them with gender neutral pronouns. If I were you, I’d stop using gender neutral pronouns as my default for everyone at work.

      1. SarahTheEntwife*

        (Generally the possessive form is “hir”. That is hir book; the book is hirs.)

    3. Aveline*

      This is the “platinum rule”. Treat others as they want to be treated.

      You start w the golden rule, then switch to platinum once you have a statement from the person about what they want

      1. Marillenbaum*

        This is an excellent point. I’ve been listening to the Awesome Etiquette podcast from the Emily Post Institute, and they’re big sticklers for the Platinum Rule.

      2. Retail HR Guy*

        But… if you want others to treat you with the platinum rule, then aren’t you following the platinum rule already when you follow the golden rule?

    4. K.*

      Exactly. I have a coworker who goes by a nickname I don’t care for (it’s very juvenile; the woman in question is over 50), but that’s how she introduced herself to me. I didn’t even know her real name until I went to her office the first time – it’s on the door. (The nickname has nothing to do with her real name.)

      But that’s what she wants to be called, so that’s what I call her. I don’t get a vote. I internally applauded another coworker who finally told someone who kept shortening her name, “I really prefer to be called [full name], not [diminutive]. No one calls me [diminutive]. Please call me [full name]. Thanks” with bass in her voice and firm eye contact – the guy finally stopped shortening it. You call people what they tell you to call them. It’s not up to you to assign names and genders to people when they tell you otherwise – it’s actually quite rude of you do to this, OP.

      1. cercis*

        I’ve finally learned a trick for that. People get one “oh, I don’t care for that diminutive, please use my real name” and then they get called by random names every time they use the diminutive for me, sometimes a diminutive of their own name (I know a Micah and when he uses a nickname for me, I’ll call him Mike, it makes the point for him), sometimes just a random name (Peter becomes Paul, etc). I’ll get a confused “that’s not my name” or “my name’s _____” and I’ll respond “oh, I thought we were renaming each other today, you started it.”

        It’s pretty passive aggressive, but surprisingly effective. Turns out that names are pretty important to everyone.

        Side note – if someone uses a diminutive when I’ve been drinking, I’ll sometimes say “usage of that name is reserved for people who either are related to me or go to bed with me and you are neither, nor will you ever be.”

      2. Marillenbaum*

        That’s excellent! My name has a common diminutive that I don’t care for (my mother was very strict about it when I was a kid–“If I wanted her to be called Susie, it would be on her birth certificate!”), and in general people understand not to be jerks about it. There have been notable exceptions, however, and those people get Full Frost from me.

  11. Dan*

    #3

    I have to ask, what makes you think this person was transgendered? I know I’d be extremely offended if someone actually asked me that.

    You’re taking this way too far, and if you keep pushing this, are going to make a lot of people uncomfortable.

    You asked what you say to your manager and HR; the answer is nothing. And address the other person as she very clearly has requested.

    1. This is confusing*

      I mean, there’s nothing wrong with being trans so I’m not sure why you’d be so overwhelmingly offended at the presumption. But ok.

      I’d probably be… concerned? It’s none of their business and surely if they know anything about trans people at all it’s that they are at significant risk of discrimination and harm – so outing themselves isn’t necessarily to be done willy nilly. It’s a sign of trust to tell other people something that makes you vulnerable and potentially in harms way, so it seems presumptive and thoughtless to flat out ask someone – especially a freaking co-worker!

      1. Rey*

        My read was that the offense would be at the nosiness/invasion of privacy, rather than at being thought trans. I’d be off-put if someone I didn’t know well thought they were entitled to that information before I was ready to share it.

        1. Dot Warner*

          Exactly. I’d be just as annoyed about a coworker asking if I’m trans as I would if they asked if I were into BDSM. Nothing wrong with either of those things but they’re both completely inappropriate questions at work!

          1. JustAnotherNonProfitManager*

            Exactly – it’s one of those questions which would make me spit my tea out and then give a very icy “what business is it of yours” especially to someone I didn’t have a close relationship with already.

            Other examples include asking who I voted for and what religion I am

      2. Gaia*

        I don’t know, I would be offended if I thought someone was making an assumption about my gender identity based on…what? My appearance? That is pretty rude, if you ask me.

        1. New Bee*

          Yeah, I’ve heard people ask that question to basically mean, “Did you use to be [fill-in-the-blank]?”, an intrusive and bigoted question under the guise of “innocent” curiosity.

          I’m not using those adjectives to describe the OP! Just pointing out how that question can land wrong (a la other identity questions like adoption, mixed race kids, etc.).

        2. Admin Assistant*

          Agreed, other ciswomen commenters on this article have indicated that they’ve been asked about their gender identity/sexual orientation, because they have more conventionally masculine features and that it’s really hurtful and rude.

          Also gender identity and sexual orientation are almost NEVER something you should ask about — you wait for the person to talk about it of their own volition, ESPECIALLY at work. It’s their choice to talk about whenever, however, and with whomever they chose. It’s like how you shouldn’t ask a coworker if she’s pregnant until she’s literally in labor (but also don’t bother your coworker in labor, lol).

          1. Noobtastic*

            On the list of questions you don’t ask…

            I got in trouble, and learned the hard way about the pregnancy thing. How was I to know she had a huge cyst? Well, I wasn’t, because HIPPA, and it wasn’t my business, anyway, and I really took to heart the adage “Don’t ask a woman if she’s pregnant unless you literally see the baby coming out of her vagina.” Thus, for years afterwards, whenever someone announced a baby shower for so-and-so, or that someone was planning maternity leave, I always gave the flummoxed, “Oh, is she pregnant?” response, only to be chided with “How could you not notice? She’s out to here.” Too ashamed to reveal my previous faux pas (in person, not on the internet with anonymity), I just shrugged my shoulders and said I wasn’t very observant.

            My second “shouldn’t have asked that question” occasion actually went over a bit well. I approached one of my co-workers, and asked her if I could ask a personal question. She said that I could, and then I told her that I was dieting, and that looking at her, I decided that she was my ideal size, and I just wanted to know what size it was, so I could plan my wardrobe shopping. She did a spit-take, and said, “That IS a personal question.” However, she answered me, and gave me some tips about where to shop, and it turned into a congenial conversation. But the moment she did that spit-take, I knew that I had crossed a line, and I learned not ask that question, again. I think the only thing that saved me there was that I actually was complimenting her, calling her “ideal.”

        3. Agnodike*

          Do you consider it rude if people correctly assume your gender based on your appearance, or just if they get it wrong?

          1. Jessie the First (or second)*

            Oftentimes, when I have seen it happen, “getting it wrong” is coded behavior that is simply about disapproval, judgment, or even bullying. Like, “you don’t look the way I think you should and I am judging you and trying to insult you.” The OP was not trying to do that, obviously, but that’s where some offense could come in – there are some posts above from cispeople who were bullied and harassed because they didn’t look the way others thought they should look, and it was extremely hurtful. AN honest mistake is one thing – but I have seen it happen in ways that made me think clearly, this was not an honest mistake. This is aggression.

            But also, ditto on the privacy issue. That’s just…. why?

            1. Sarah*

              Yeah, I think if someone clearly made an honest mistake, I would not fault them either way. But if you’ve specifically been told the correct pronouns and argue back that no, those really aren’t my pronouns? That is no longer an honest mistake.

          2. Gaia*

            I consider it rude for them to assume they can tell based on my appearance whether or not they get it right.

      3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        The offensiveness is not the suggestion that a person is trans, but the invasion of privacy and the inappropriateness of the question. Asking someone their preferred pronouns is ok, as long as you do it for everyone (not just people you assume to be trans!). But asking for their sex identity is invasive and frankly none of OP’s business.

        1. Sarah*

          I think it’s one of those things where the ASKING is the problem — if a coworker wants to proactively share that they are trans or cis or non-binary, that’s perfectly fine. But if someone chooses not to disclose, it’s not on others to ask about it. I would put this in the same category as:

          It’s perfectly appropriate for a coworker to come out as gay, it’s not appropriate for me to go up to them and demand to know their sexual orientation.
          It’s wonderful if someone’s pregnant and announces it to the office, but it’s rude for me to say “Hey, getting a little big in the tummy, do you have a bun in the oven?”
          etc.

      4. Turanga Leela*

        There’s nothing wrong with being trans, but a lot of people (trans and cis) would find the question insulting. Asking the question can imply that the person doesn’t look like his or her gender, which is an unpleasant thing to hear regardless of whether you’re trans or cis.

        I know that in some communities it’s common to ask for preferred pronouns in all social interactions, and obviously that’s not insulting in that context. (It’s also not asking whether people are cis or trans, just how they prefer to be addressed.)

        1. Dan*

          When you put it that way, when I think about it, I’d find it awkward as hell and probably just as offensive, if you asked me if I’m straight, especially if you asked me that at work. (Sorry, general you.)

          ‘Cause… You wanna go out on a date with me? If so, you need to know me well enough to ask, and if you know me well enough, you don’t have to ask. Some stuff doesn’t belong in the work place.

        2. Anon A*

          “Asking the question can imply that the person doesn’t look like his or her gender, which is an unpleasant thing to hear regardless of whether you’re trans or cis.”

          Thisthisthis. It’s funny this letter should come up now – I had a client just last week ask me outright, out of the blue, “are you transitioning?” during a consultation. I’d been thinking I was passing pretty well, so it had me rattled for the rest of the day, and my mind keeps jumping back to it during consultations this week. My taken-aback response was just “she/her pronouns are fine, thank you”. Later, I bemoaned not adding “and don’t ask me about my genitals in the work place. Bloody hell.”

      5. Dan*

        There’s all kinds of things that are ok to be, and yet still insensitive or offensive to ask about, particularly when they’re based off of some physical characteristic:

        1) Pregnant when fat
        2) Homosexual when male has a high pitched voice, or effiminate mannerisms
        3) Lesbian when a woman has a short haircut

        Hell, some people will get grossly offended when asked about their salary, and it’s ok to have a job!

        1. Bookworm*

          Yeah, it also depends on how it’s asked. A lot of those things would throw me in a work context.

          This reminds me that I once had someone think I was a lesbian because of how I was holding hands and speaking intimately with a friend I hadn’t seen in several years. They assumed she was my girlfriend; I laughed it off. Unoffensive and understandable.

          On another instance, someone asked if I was a lesbian and made it clear that impression was because I said things that “would be funny if you were a guy, but because you’re a girl, it’s just weird. But maybe you’re gay?” THAT was offensive. (And probably still would have been if I were gay and, you know what, I’m effing hilarious.)

      6. Tempest*

        There is nothing wrong with it at all!

        But it is the individual’s right to out themselves as trans. I know people who have transitioned who have made their whole process very public and transparent so everyone knows that Jane used to be Fergus. I know other people who I assume used to be Michael and is now Michelle, but I call her Mrs as she is married and prefers this title, I would call her her/she in conversation and I would never ask if she’s a trans person. She’s told me as we were introduced that she is Mrs Michelle Percival and that is as much as her gender is my business.

        You don’t ask someone who hasn’t given you an opening to think they are receptive to talking about their gender if they’ve always been that gender. It’s rude, it puts them on the spot to be outted if they’re not. It’s not a topic for business colleagues to randomly initiate. It’s up to the person to initiate that convo and certainly not up to a colleague to either out them or force them to decide on the spot to lie about it. The person says they are x title and they are x pronoun. Just honour that and respect everyone.

      7. Gadget Hackwrench*

        It’s because the question can also be translated as “what are/were your genitals” and it’s EXCEEDINGLY rude to ask people about their genitals.

        1. Sir Alanna Trebond*

          “It’s EXCEEDINGLY rude to ask people about their genitals”

          I just spit out my coffee. But yes, that is the crux of the matter.

        2. BenAdminGeek*

          Oh… DON’T ask about people’s genitals at work. That explains why I got fired…

      8. paul*

        I’d be irritated as hell if someone was asking if I was cis or trans at work. My genitals aren’t their damn business.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        It’s in a post with other letters because the answer is pretty straightforward, as long as people don’t turn it into a pile-on, which I’ve asked people not to do.

        1. Fire*

          I just looked and it’s utterly amazing to me how many people can post comments while I was thinking about mine! There were only two comments on the entire post when I started, and I didn’t think I took too long.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            I sometimes wonder how early everybody gets up. Often I see a tweet from Alison around midnight when I’m about to go to bed, and I think, “Oh [bloody ;)] hell, by the time I get to that post tomorrow, there will be seven million comments and it will take me all day just to read the one.

        2. Katie the Fed*

          Yeah I think this one is pretty straightforward – so far everyone commenting has agreed. I’ve actually learned quite a bit from the comments.

          Yesterday’s was off the hook. It was one that I read aloud to my husband.

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            Yesterday’s was deeply disturbing. It has made me start to wonder whether the continue reading the blog — or at least reading the comments. You can see that I’ve decided, for the time being, to continue. I love this blog and I usually enjoy the comments, but damn. The community here isn’t what it used to be (probably inevitable, given how much larger it is than the old days. Kids, get off my lawn. :))

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Noooo, never again. Or at least, I need an easy day after yesterday. I’m hereby asking people not to pile on and give some attention to the other letters too.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        It might be worth pinning the request at the top—as folks continue to comment, I think your request may get buried :(

      2. KarenT*

        Was yesterday’s the most commented on ever post? I don’t remember ever seeing one with that many comments!

          1. Dan*

            You ever wonder how any post can generate 2000 comments? And how any post can get 200 comments between midnight and 2am?

              1. Gadfly*

                I’m a night owl on the West Coast. It shows up as I’m winding down and filling time.

                1. Mookie*

                  Which is why I’ve been so surprised lately how busy it’s gotten right around the post-midnight hour, our time. Hundreds! I don’t remember this ever happening so frequently before.

                2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  Same for me, although I have also been kind of surprised by the rapid increase in “post-9 p.m. PDT” commenting.

              3. Nic*

                I work nights in CST, so that post gives me something to read around lunch. I always look forward to it.

            2. Dizzy Steinway*

              It’s not midnight in the UK! I get up super early to commute to London and I read the five questions posts while yawning into my first cup of coffee.

              1. Myrin*

                I’m in Germany, so one hour ahead of you, I believe, and always come on at about the same time when there’s only just ten comments or so on the five questions post. However, in the last one or two weeks, there have been almost a hundred comments already whenever I first came here and I can’t understand why – we’ve had the daylight savings change but that would actually make me be even more ahead of US time, not less. I’ve been wondering what’s going on and can’t seem to figure it out.

            4. NW Cat Lady*

              I don’t post as often as I lurk, but I work nights, so most of my posts are going to be after midnight!

            5. fposte*

              That’s the thing that’s really changed in my eyes–I didn’t use to start my day to see hundreds of comments on the first post already.

              1. Elsajeni*

                That’s true — I read the short-answer post in the morning at work, and I used to deliberately save it until 10:00 (Central) or so, so that it would have time to accumulate some comments and I wouldn’t feel like I’d missed all the discussion. Now it’s typical for there to be over 100 comments by 8:00.

          2. KAZ2Y5*

            If we are ever lucky enough to get an update, you may have to have that as the only column of the day!

          3. Retail HR Guy*

            Dear Ask a Manager,

            I have an employee, Davos, and ze owns a circumcised pit bull trained to sniff out WMD’s but is otherwise only an emotional support animal for Davos’ crippling anxiety associated with xhis sensitivity to smells diagnosed by a Naturopath even though he is a Christian Scientist who doesn’t believe in medicine. Ze wants to bring xhis dog to work.

            My other employee, Melisandre, is a hijab-wearing feminist. She is not allergic to dogs but is allergic to peanuts. Here’s the thing, though… the pit bull identifies as a peanut. I want to accommodate both, and they work closely together on two different projects: one in which they prove that 0.9999 repeating equals 1 and the other in which they attempt to have a plane take off from a very large conveyor belt going in the opposite direction.

            What should I do?

            1. Elizabeth H.*

              I don’t think this is very funny, and it seems mean spirited toward BOTH groups of people I think you are trying to depict/satirize (both the very socially conscious, and those who sometimes feel like expressions of social consciousness go beyond what is reasonable/necessary)

              1. Retail HR Guy*

                The joke was just cramming as many comment-generating topics as I could into a short couple of paragraphs. That’s it. That’s the whole joke.

            2. Rabbit*

              What should I do?

              Understand that making jokes like “the pitbull identifies as a peanut” is a tactic frequently used to undermine people who don’t conform with traditional binary gender “rules” and knock it off if you don’t want to perceived as a bloody bigot.

              1. Retail HR Guy*

                It’s a fake letter. It’s not real.

                And the point of it was nothing more than comedy. I don’t think it’s appropriate to actually start a debate about any of the topics contained in it (which I don’t believe I’ve weighed in on here one way or another).

                1. LizB*

                  I think what folks are trying to tell you is that the comedy missed the mark by a long shot.

                2. Retail HR Guy*

                  LizB,

                  No, folks here are not just saying that my comedy missed the mark. If they were merely saying they didn’t find it funny I wouldn’t feel the need to defend myself; that’s a subjective call they are free to make.

                  What they are doing is ascribing malicious intent where it doesn’t exist. Being an expert on my own intent, I am correcting their error.

            3. Gandalf the Nude*

              Besides Elizabeth H. and Rabbit’s points and that you’ve used an awful lot of maligned groups as props for your joke, it’s actually very easy to prove that .9999 repeating equals 1. That’s not a project; that’s a google search.

              1. Retail HR Guy*

                Mentioning groups in a joke is not the same as making fun of them. Rest assured that I like feminists and pit bulls. (WMD’s not so much.)

                I should have known that I couldn’t make a joke about topics that people are unable to resist commenting on and then expect people not to comment on those topics. I know that 0.9999 repeating equals one. I also know, though, that the topic generates an inordinate amount of discussion on the internet. Hence its inclusion in the joke.

                And, yes, it would be ridiculous to hire people to work on a project proving that 0.9999 equals one. It’s not real. It’s a fake letter. Pit bulls are not really ever trained to sniff out WMD’s, no one that I know of circumcises dogs, and naturopaths are not actually capable of diagnosing real illnesses. It’s a joke.

      3. LJL*

        Really. Yesterday was a hard one with no good answers. But it was interesting conversation between me and DH last night!

      4. Loose Seal*

        Ha! Me too. I feel bad I didn’t read everyone’s comments yesterday but I just couldn’t. And then I didn’t sleep well last night reliving some of it.

        Did you notice the AP article you linked not only discussed the singular “they,” it also mentioned phobias? I swear the internet is following me around.

  13. Casuan*

    OP3: You can’t expect others to respect your identity preferences if you don’t respect theirs. I’m a single woman who prefers “Ms” however I won’t be upset if someone doesn’t know this & refers to me as “Miss” or “Mrs” in a genuine effort to be polite. If one knows I’m a female, then “Mr” would be inappropriate. I’ve never heard the pronouns you listed & am researching them. If you first addressed me by one of them, I would politely ask you to please refer to me as “she” & “Ms.”
    I’m glad to refer to you in the pronoun & title of your choice, although please give me a learning curve whilst I become accustomed to it & I will give you the same courtesy.
    It’s good to want to educate others, just be patient & don’t press the lessons if one doesn’t want them.
    :)

    1. Nic*

      I came here to say exactly this about not being aware of the pronouns. There are many groups who are trying to push different variations of gender neutral pronouns, so even if a person is aware of the existence of a convention, it make take a while to adjust to a different.

      Regardless, there should be respect all around.

    2. Bagpuss*

      I think this is right, I also prefer ‘Ms’. I am not offended when someone uses ‘Miss’ or ‘Mrs’ when they first address me, but I will let them know that I prefer ‘Ms’, and if they then refuse to use that an continue to address me as ‘Miss’ or ‘Mrs’ I would find that extremely rude. I the the same is true to an even greater extent when talking about one’s preferred pronouns, I think for many, if not most , people, their gender identity is a much more fundamental part of who they are than their marital status, so disregarding their preference is a much bigger deal.

      I think also that LW#3 is perhaps confusing what it is appropriate to do when speaking about people in general, with what it is appropriate to do in speaking to or about individual people. If you are writing something, or giving a presentation, then using neutral terms will usually be appropriate (for instance I’m in the process of revising internal policies. I am replacing all the ‘his/her’ and ‘he/she’ with ‘their’ and ‘they’) but when you are dealing with individuals you use their own preferred terms. So I might say (or write) “It is the responsibility of the cashier on duty to make sure they have completed the reconciliation and locked up the safe, before leaving” but I would not say “let me introduce you to Giles in accounts, they are our head cashier” (unless I knew that Giles’s preferred pronouns were ‘they/their’ rather than ‘he/his’)

  14. Audiophile*

    #3 While I wouldn’t be offended or insulted by being referred to using gender-neutral pronouns, it’s certainly not my preference. I’m female and I identify as such, thus I like to people to use “she. her, hers.” In fact, my new job actually uses preferred pronouns as part of our email signature and now they’ll be used on business cards as well. She’s correcting you for a reason: because it’s important to her. In the same way gender neutral pronouns are important you. Since your coworker has expressed a clear preference, it’s not right to ignore that.

      1. Audiophile*

        These ribbons are really cool and would likely be useful for staff for events. Thanks for the link!

      2. cobweb collector*

        Seriously? This is ridiculous. You don’t manage by exception. 99% of the time pronouns are obvious – either he/him or she/her. If you get it wrong, the person should politely correct the speaker, the speaker apologizes, and makes a mental note to get it right in the future. Why does there have to be such a formal system surrounding something so simple?

        1. Marzipan*

          Your perception that anyone who misgenders someone will respond to being corrected by apologising and making a mental note to get it right in future is… probably not the experience of many trans and non-binary people. In some situations, correcting that individual may put the misgendered person at risk. Whereas, if an individual/organisation signals from the outset that they’re open to accepting people’s gender identities, they’re working to make it safer for those identities to be expressed.

        2. SarahTheEntwife*

          Why not do something that takes minimal effort and avoids the (extremely awkward) conversation entirely? It’s especially convenient since much of the time if someone refers to me in the third person, I’m not around to hear it. Ribbons let me make a mental note of someone’s pronouns without having to either ask or be corrected.

        3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          It’s actually not about “managing by exception”—it’s about disrupting/troubling the default assumption that “all people are cis.” The purpose is to make people realize that individuals pick their gender identity and expression, and we shouldn’t impose our perception/assumptions about someone’s identity onto them. It also attempts to make it safer for individuals to assert their identity without fear of backlash or violence, which is a real and constant threat facing transpeople, genderqueer, and nonbinary individuals. By analogy, it’s similar to using language/phrases that do not assume the entire world is straight/hetero by using broad language that makes it easier for a person to identify as they want to instead of imposing an identity onto that person.

          At bottom, it’s about practicing mutual respect, not just giving it lip service.

        4. anonderella*

          I don’t think it’s ridiculous at all, nor are you accurate in predicating the “obviousness” of a facet of someone else’s identity based on your opinion of what those words mean – nor is the issue simple, at all. One complication is that the he he/him/she/her [binary] paradigm offers a sense of safety (in it’s mainstream acceptance) in that it is one standard, but it doesn’t mean that those who use those pronouns necessarily actually relate to them; actually that safety that it offers can be inhibiting, as it leaves little room for exploration of self to find those answers, as there are fewer identified archetypes to follow/expand on outside of those in the mainstream.
          Point being, the absence of their correction, no matter your assumptions or what you start out calling them first, isn’t necessarily going to paint for you the most accurate picture of their preferences.

          You’re arguing for one standard, when this entire issue seeks to readdress what we define as standard, and to err on the side of being more inclusive. By increasing awareness of their (non-binary pronouns/people) presence in mainstream culture, we open up an internal(sometimes external, both good and bad) dialogue about the importance of respect, individual identity, expression and choice; by allowing them to be present visibly, as with a label/button worn, we make useless the moral ambiguity in confronting the unknown/different by *allowing them to present to US* and *to inform US what THEY think we should know*, while highlighting the emerging importance of respect, individual identity, expression and choice across all arenas of life, and not only those currently in the mainstream.
          In other words, when there is a label, there is less emphasis on what’s placed on the label, and the meaning of what’s placed on the label, because the label itself acknowledges the difficulty in the question at hand, and when/how to address that question. It leaves you to decide your own comfort level, while gracefully and succinctly informing you of theirs.

          (ps: I wrote that over like an hour, so hopefully it doesn’t get lost because I really put a lot of thought into it! : ) it’s just my perspective on the matter, and I realize I am lucky that very little about my gender expression triggers negative reactions from anyone, and that I am also fortunate that the mainstream dominance of my overall gender expression and very visible skin color allowed me to ‘play’ with gender roles as much as I did/do. I think these were key aspects in my finally settling on ‘fluid’ as the best way to describe myself, which is why it gets hard to write from any one perspective. Even though I’m white, that wasn’t the majority in my hometown, so I feel more connected to the culture that is represented in the majority, there; even though for all intents and purposes, I present as female and (mostly) heterosexual, I wouldn’t consider myself to be firmly either of those.
          What I like about the labels is that it allows for any possible conflict to gracefully pass, while acknowledging the importance in the answer and of the person answering, and allows people to identify firmly with or fluidly pass through different states of expression. Or to indicate that they prefer not to express/explain, and to let that conflict reside solely in the mind of the person who introduces it, and not the person it’s being thrust upon.)

      1. Audiophile*

        It is pretty awesome, so far! After back to back to back crappy jobs, it’s nice to be in a good one.

    3. JustAnotherNonProfitManager*

      I love the idea of pronouns on sigs (and ribbons for events possibly)! I’m off to suggest this (in addition to a massive plea to improve our execrable E&D training which is straight out of the 80s)

  15. fishy*

    OP 3, I understand and appreciate where you’re coming from – I’ve often felt it would be better if everyone always just used gender-neutral pronouns for everyone. That said, since that isn’t the custom, I would also be uncomfortable with someone who knows my gender referring to me with gender-neutral pronouns instead of my preferred pronouns. Even if it isn’t the intention, I would feel like the person didn’t want to acknowledge my actual gender. Now, unlike your coworker, I am trans, but I wouldn’t want to feel backed into admitting that I’m trans in order to get someone to respect my pronouns – especially when in many situations, admitting that I’m trans would have the opposite result! So it’s probably best not to put someone in that situation and just call them by the pronouns they ask to be called by, whether they are cis or trans.

    1. Mookie*

      That’s quite true. The ‘efficiency’ in just defaulting to gender-neutral only makes sense and seems just if you divorce the issue of personal pronouns from today’s politics and forget that gender-neutral and non-binary are not ‘neutral’ at all. They are their own distinct identities, and imposing them on others is impolite and harmful. We are not living in a genderblind world (I don’t even know if we ought to seek out such circumstances). Treating gender and alignment with delicacy, tact, empathy, and understanding is necessary. People are still not always comfortable disclosing facets of their identity, but that’s exactly what they are forced to do when people feign neutrality, thereby erasing distinctions that, to certain people, matter a great deal. It’s the same dynamic, benevolent bigotry, that informs feigned ‘colorblindness.’

      1. DArcy*

        It’s reasonable to use gender neutral pronouns as the generic and as the default for persons of unknown preference, but OP crosses the line by insisting that everyone should be addressed with nonbinary (not neutral) pronouns and that anyone who prefers otherwise is a bigot.

  16. Eohippus*

    As a person who is also at a nontraditional place on the gender spectrum I think that OP3’s situation is a case of good initiative, bad judgement. It’s important to be respectful of other people, and that means honoring their wishes in how they’re addressed (names, pronouns, etc) as long as they’re office appropriate. Xe/hir/mx are strongly tied to nonbinary people, and so using them on someone who isn’t can be just as misgendering as calling the OP he or she. The coworker in question apparently respects the OP’s pronouns, so the OP should show her the same courtesy.

    Personally I’ve always found xe/hir/mx to be a bit pretentious since you can accomplish the same goal just as easily by using they/them or the person’s name.

    1. Wendy*

      These are also not very well known pronouns, so many people may just want to avoid having to explain it to others every time you use them. Even in my urban, progressive, queer bubble, I’ve never heard them actually used in real life conversation, just like, on blogs or in academic papers. I think of some people I know who are in their 60s like my boss or parents, who would fight to the death in support of trans folks but aren’t necessarily on Twitter or having conversations about gender theory at brunch, for example – they would be very confused overhearing this conversation. Certainly old dogs can learn new tricks, but I think it’s worth acknowledging that this is so far outside the mainstream even for progressives that it may be worth considering how you go about it.

      1. Eohippus*

        I was thinking the same, though I wasn’t sure if the OP was from a part of the country where it’s more common for the queer community to use them. I appreciate the idea behind them, but I agree it’s unnecessarily confusing. It’s awesome that the OP’s workplace has been so supportive, I’m just afraid the OP doesn’t realize they’re burning bridges.

      3. Mookie*

        But that’s kind of the point. New language carves out of old, uncomfortable spaces a fresh freedom for people with marginalized identities. It’s meant to startle, to make, in this instance, cis people who’ve never even contemplated the distinction between gender and alignment recognize that they, too, are aligned. (White people, too, have ethnicities and cultures. Men, too, have gender.)

        Hostility to this is to be expected, but that doesn’t mean the project needs to be abandoned. Kowtowing to the ignorance of well-meaning people for fear of abandonment, holding trans and non-binary lives hostage in case they irritate cis people or provoke their wrath, does not a campaign for true liberation make.

        Adults can learn this very easily, if they have the will to. It’s similar to Anglos who are disquieted by ‘foreign’ names and simply insist that they’ll Never! Ever! Be Able To Pronounce! That! Of course you can. If you can reasonably approximate how Ralph Fiennes says his name, you can learn to say Chiwetel Ejiofor out loud. What it wants is practice, and sometimes just being quiet and listening.

        1. Wendy*

          I don’t mean to suggest that people cannot or should not learn new pronouns for people who prefer them, like the OP. What I’m saying is that is someone referred to me as xe, I’d say, oh thanks, but please use she/her, similar to if someone called me Ms. Smith, I’d say, oh thanks but please call me Wendy. In both cases, this clarifies who the many people who come into my workplace would ask for at our reception desk when they’re here to meet with me, which is my preference and also more convenient for me in the workplace setting.

          Even if within the workplace the workers decided as a group to use gender neutral pronouns, because they are so far outside the mainstream still, I think it would be challenging to conduct all of your business using them, particularly with outside people…. You’d have to spend some time prior to or at the beginning of meetings educating people, and you’d have to decide if that was part of your organizations mission, I’d think. I have a few friends who have switched pronouns and I am definitely nervous the first time I’ve seen them about accidentally using the wrong one, because I would feel awful for hurting their feelings accidentally. If someone sprung it on me when I arrived for a meeting, I’d be a nervous wreck the whole time that I’d say the wrong thing.

    2. Tau*

      Personally I’ve always found xe/hir/mx to be a bit pretentious since you can accomplish the same goal just as easily by using they/them or the person’s name.

      I’m not clear from that comment if you mean using xe/hir as a gender-neutral pronoun, in which case I’m also not a great fan, or are including nonbinary people who prefer those pronouns in that. In case of the latter, I’m a nonbinary person who’s preferred made-up pronouns in the past. Believe me, I’d have loved to be OK with a standard set of pronouns back when I was going by “ze”, but it simply wasn’t to be; at that point I could be glad that I had *any* pronouns I was remotely OK with, their etymology or lack thereof be damned. I managed to get myself to the point where I’m fine with “they”, but it took years.

      1. Gadget Hackwrench*

        I like Xe/Xem/Xyr, because in countries where we are legally acknowledged, the non-binary gender identifier is X. :)

    3. Not Alison*

      This is new to me. So I’d like to learn. How do you pronounce “xe” “hir” and “mx”? Also I would disagree that it is the same as “they” and “them” as the use of “they” and “them” is similar to the use of “you” – there is the question if it is singular or plural.

      1. Alton*

        Xe or zie is typically pronounced like “zee.” Hir is like “here.” Most people seem to pronounce Mx like “mix.”

        1. Cassandra*

          Thank you, Alton, and thanks to Not Alison for asking. I had the same question, and I appreciate knowing the answer.

    4. Junior Dev*

      I can sort of relate to this statement by OP 3:

      “Since I came out, I have been addressing people as gender-neutral [ze, hir, mx.] I do this because there are others who are non-binary like me, but they may not be out yet and I want to be respectful and make them feel safe.”

      I went through a phase where I was coming to terms with having been in an abusive relationship and for a while I kind of… assumed all relationships were abusive? Like someone would ask for advice and my response would be about keeping yourself safe and not letting your partner know anything. I figured out pretty quickly that this is not a healthy way to approach normal relationships, but I still sometimes have trouble wrapping my head around the idea that relationships can be normal.

      For OP, maybe zir experience with having a gender and pronouns assumed is traumatic or upsetting and so zie is seeing everyone else in that light, and is trying to avoid hurting others the way zie was hurt. It doesn’t change the advice I would give zir–i think Alison is right–but it makes me a little more sympathetic to why someone would make that mistake.

      1. Teclatrans*

        And I would push this analogy further in light of hir willingness to use she/her if-and-only-if coworker is trans, and speculate that cis-gendered folks are cast in the “abuser” role (and thus not to be afforded consideration).

  17. all aboard the anon train*

    #3: There are several alarming things about your letter, OP3.

    First, it’s really not okay to ask if someone is trans! That’s not creating a safe space for someone who is if they’re worried that someone is going to outright ask them. Queer identities should be brought up by that individual first, not someone else.

    Secondly, have you considered the fact that other people may feel uncomfortable correcting you because they’re worried they’re going to get in trouble with you?

    You are, in fact, misegendering people who tell you they prefer a gender specific pronoun over a gender neutral one. If someone says they prefer the name Jessica over Jess or they prefer to be labelled bisexual instead of a lesbian or straight, you don’t get to change those identities because of your preference. Someone saying they prefer a specific label to apply to THEMSELVES is not automatically against your identity.

    If your coworker respects your pronoun, then you should respect hers. She’s doing nothing wrong as long as she continues to refer to you by your chosen pronoun. It’d be a different story if she was refusing to use your chosen pronoun.

  18. Rey*

    OP #2, that sounds really odd. I work in a retail environment as well, and in our handbook we are given a phone number to call if we have a concern about policy or management, or even just need a clarification. Do you have access to something similar? I don’t mean that you need to try to get your manager in trouble with his bosses, but it doesn’t sound like you’re likely to get a straightforward or accurate answer out of him. Getting in touch with someone over his head would be a good way to clarify which is more important–the holiday dress policy from corporate or his no-jeans stance.

      1. AMG*

        I agree. It’s like he is trying to hide it from you so that you don’t actually know you can wear jeans, but he isn’t allowed to come straight out and tell you not to. If he stays in ambiguity land, it may work. If you shine a corporate spotlight on him, I bet you get to wear the jeans and he stops that crap.

    2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Yeah, I think the manager is being weird. And because this is retail, it actually may not be ok for the manager to circumvent corporate’s instructions this way. When I worked retail, I had a boss who tried to impose new and more aggressive dress code restrictions (which required that we bought new wardrobes, which none of us could afford because minimum wage). When an anonymous question about it hit the regional manager, there was a pretty stern talking to between the regional manager and branch manager about when it’s ok and not ok to deviate from corporate’s policies.

      I don’t know if this is the rock OP#2 wants to die on, but I think a question to the corporate hotline for guidance might be ok.

      1. Lance*

        Yeah, I definitely see it as the manager being… not so reasonable on this matter, considering he’s refusing to acknowledge the corporate policy (to the point of editing handouts himself!). Much as I’d like for it to be solvable by going right to him, I think going over his head in the way of ‘can you see if anything’s off here?’ rather than a potentially more punishing ‘our manager’s defying corporate policy!’ would be the way to go.

      2. Kj*

        I agree the manager is being weird. The whole “hiding-the-flyer” thing is really weird. I think Allison is right- someone needs to ask him directly what his stance on jeans is for those days AND if they get a “no jean” response, then they can call corporate about it.

        1. Kyrielle*

          Except talking to the manager here has the unfortunate effect of outing who probably called corporate in that case. :/ The manager is being so weird and underhanded, that I have to conclude that a) he’s not willing to yield on this and b) he’s not sure he has the authority to do it.

          That makes me think taking it up with him will probably not be very effective, except at giving him a target if it’s taken to corporate later.

      3. paul*

        Yeah, large corporate retail doesn’t tend to give store managers that much leeway, at least IME (Kroger, WalMart, Office Depot). It’s very top down, which has its’ own *huge* set of problems, but may help here.

      4. Betsy*

        I’m OP #2. He also takes and locks up chairs when he leaves for the day so no one can sit down while doing their counting or printing in the back office. I had to physically corner him and ask him three times why he was doing that for him to finally tell me he just thought we took too long to close up.

        He has a lot of opinions about what should and shouldn’t be done at work, but communication isn’t his strongsuit.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          WTF is wrong with him!? His behavior is so abnormal and unreasonable (and bizarre!). He sounds like the kind of manager who holds secret ideas of what the rules should be and then dings you for not meeting the standards he never told you about. I’m shaking my head—I’m sorry, Betsy.

    3. Merely*

      I work at a retail chain very similar to (if not the company) as the OP, and there is a number right on the homepage of the employee website. I think the OP would get the best response if she frames this as a morale issue.

      1. MarsJenkar*

        I’ll say this: I’m not even a jeans person, and knowing the boss had surreptitiously changed the corporate handouts the way they did would have a negative impact on MY morale.

    4. Whats In A Name*

      Yes,I was coming to say something similar. OP, the fact that he HID the flyers and then marked out the part about jeans doesn’t scream transparent or direct to me, it screams passive. I’d call a corporate concern line if you have one.

      Sometimes I think a big problem in these situations isn’t that he’s inherently against jeans, it’s that he’s not giving you any insight into why. A little explanation can go a long way towards buy in, IMO.

    5. Lynn Whitehat*

      I think there’s no way he has corporate’s blessing to impose a stricter dress code. If he did, he would just say “we’re not participating in Jeans Day”. The sneaking around, hiding flyers, editing handouts, says he does not have permission from above, and is hoping the institutional memory of jeans day is gone.

      1. Noobtastic*

        I know Letter #3 got all the attention today, but I have to say, I REALLY want an update on #2. In fact, the chair issue may be something to bring up with corporate, as well.

        After all, unless they are doing that counting/end work at a standing desk, or at a counter designed at the proper height, they are probably having to bend over for long stretches, which is an ergonomic nightmare. Work placed at a table, with a chair, for most of the day, and being comfortable in that set up, will be extremely painful, without the chair.

  19. Indoor Cat*

    I don’t get the jeans thing. Genuinely, from a manager’s POV–why would it make a manager uncomfortable to allow a dresscode change as corporate is okay with it? If someone shares this POV, I am curious, what might the motivation be?

    I guess I think, as a customer, if staff were all wearing festive sweaters, I wouldn’t notice their trousers one way or the other, but that’s just me.

    1. Borne*

      I can understand his issue with jeans.
      Jeans seem to be the least attractive pants to wear, for men and women.

      1. AW*

        We’ll have to agree to disagree on the attractiveness of jeans but it’s 10-11 days out of the whole year and they’re already wearing “ugly” holiday sweaters.

        It just seems petty to not allow it.

        1. Gadfly*

          And really, expecting attractiveness out of overworked, underpaid people who have to deal with all the standard petty BS raised to the nth deg that time of year is just a bit much. Does their ass really need to look good as well as them managing to find the last whatever the system claims is in stock but isn’t where it ought to be on the shelves? Generally with several people demanding attention at once?

      2. Mimi*

        It doesn’t matter how attractive they are. They are there to provide a service not to be your eye candy. As long as their jeans are clean without holes I don’t see any issues with it at any time of year but especially at christmas. If they working long hours until midnight allowing them to wear some comfortable clothes and festive jumpers seems a really easy way to have goodwill with your employees.

        Plus I personally think jeans look better with christmas jumpers than other things like khakis or trousers. But thats my personal opinion.

        1. she was a fast machine*

          All of this. I really, really don’t get the stigma about jeans. There are so many kinds, and at least half of them look as professional as a pair of khakis.

        2. esra*

          Yes, thank you. It burns my biscuits how people have these ridiculous standards for people in the service industry. Don’t get me started on places that won’t give cashiers stools to sit on.

          1. aebhel*

            …which is most places, in my experience. One of my retail managers told me that it made us look ‘lazy’. >:|

            (Incidentally, my last library director tried to do away with the stool at the circulation desk for much the same reason, but librarians and library clerks are generally in a better position to raise hell about that than front-line retail workers, and we did in style. That idea was nixed.)

            1. MagsM*

              Aargh. The library I worked at before my current one did do away with the stool at circ even though we had staff who needed them for medical reasons.

              …of course that’s also the library that when they asked me why I wanted time off, asked why on earth I’d want to attend a library conference.
              And refused to allow staff to leave the building during unpaid lunch…

      3. Observer*

        Seriously?!

        For starters, the idea that well cut pair of jeans is always going to look less attractive that a typically cheap and poorly fitting pair of uniform pants doesn’t pass the giggle test. But, and this the key, personal preference is just that, and basing a store wide policy on your idea of what is or isn’t attractive is not a very good idea – especially when there is a good chance that your customers would not agree.

        More importantly, WHO CARES? Since when do store clerks, cashiers, etc. need to be dressed “attractively”, or be “attractive”? The idea, frankly, is gross.

      4. Havarti*

        If we’re going to talk about jeans being attractive or unattractive (which boils down to personal preference at the end of the day), I think we might as well mention couture vs. off-the-rack. Because a badly-fitted pair of slacks are certainly not going to do anyone any favors. Though I do find it fascinating that jeans, which started out as pants for workers essentially, has been adopted by folks of all economic levels.

      5. paul*

        Heretic! Nothing makes my butt look better than jeans. At least when I’m in shape; they’re not very forgiving when I’m out of shape.

      6. aebhel*

        Really? I can find jeans that fit properly without too much trouble. Finding khakis or dress pants that fit me properly without a million saggy parts or an oddly-placed waistband is a giant hassle, and frankly even the ones I do find usually fit poorly.

        (Also, frankly, I find a lot of professional styles unattractive, but that doesn’t make them inappropriate for the workplace)

    2. Wing Girl*

      I had a manager once that didn’t like the way she looked in jeans and therefore didn’t want any of her staff wearing jeans. People can have odd motivations for their decisions that may have nothing to do with the work place.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Oh, good point–maybe the manager doesn’t want anyone to wear jeans because he doesn’t want to wear them for a similar reason.
        Still, if the dress code for that week is jeans and sweaters, he’s still being weird. This is his hangup, nobody else’s.

    3. NotoriousMCG*

      Dude, wut? I love jeans, I love how nice jeans look, and I will go to my grave defending the attractiveness of jeans. What about them makes them unattractive to you?

      1. AMG*

        Me too! I live in jeans and when I was job-searching, I would avoid anyplace that made me dress up. I hate, hate, hate dress pants and am totally uncomfortable all day until I finally get to change!

    4. Allison*

      Maybe he’s (rightly or wrongly) overly concerned with the store’s reputation or image, and worried that shoppers will think the staff is sloppy or unprofessional if they see jeans instead of “professional” pants. Of course, that’s a little out of touch with the way most shoppers feel about other people’s pants, but maybe this is a part of the country where it’s a sin to be casual in public or something.

      Or he’s worried about work ethic, and thinks that you’ll only work hard if you’re in proper work clothes. Which isn’t a terrible way to think, I’m probably more productive in the dress I’m wearing to work today than, say, yoga pants and a t-shirt.

      Maybe he used to work somewhere that allowed jeans, and people wore ragged jeans, or the staff didn’t work hard, or the store was known for crappy customer service, and he blames that on jeans.

      1. Lynn Whitehat*

        The only halfway good reason I can think of for this subterfuge is if he’s had bad experiences with it at other stores. Maybe it turns into an endless cat-and-mouse game, the jeans have to be plain blue with no embellishments. No other color, no rips, not saggy, no acid-washing or deliberate fading, etc etc.

      2. kb*

        It could be something they experienced with clients commenting in the past? I don’t think most customers really care, but in my experience when they do, they care a lot and make it very known.

  20. Dizzy Steinway*

    #4 Have a think about how you’d like to develop too. What areas might be a focus – what skills or knowledge and what do you think would help eg coaching, self-study time, training courses, etc. Just in case you’re asked for ideas.

    1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Agreed—OP#4, definitely follow up! It can help if you can come to the table with some ideas/suggestions for your “professional development plan.” But it’s also ok to contact her and treat the first conversation like an information-gathering expedition.

    2. t*

      Great point! OP should absolutely be prepared with some ideas of what kind of professional development they would want to do.

      I would also suggest emailing your boss in advance of the next meeting to let them know you’d like to cover that so the manager can be prepared to discuss it as well.

    3. Tuppence*

      Agreed.

      OP #4, I’d be tempted to have a preliminary email conversation with Boss, so that this is clearly on the agenda for the next meeting. Partly to avoid springing it on them if it’s slipped their mind by then, but also to share some ideas about what you can research ahead of time, so you can come in with your own suggestions and maybe even the beginnings of a plan (if that’s appropriate for you/Boss/your workplace norms).

      Setting yourself some limits might be good too. Depending on what options Boss offers, how much of your own money and your free time can you put towards it? And practice saying something like: “That’s a really interesting suggestion. I hand’t even considered that, so I’m going to need some time to think about it.” Just in case Boss comes up with something great but difficult for you, or horrifying but hard to refuse.

    4. Whats In A Name*

      Agree! And going back to our post about things I wish I’d know when I started was to be more proactive about my professional development from the start!

      Don’t wait for your manager to come to you to follow up – show them that you are, in fact, interested in bettering yourself so if that position – or another – comes open again you will be ready for it. Bosses love investing in employees who show interest in investing in themselves.

    5. NotAnotherManager!*

      This is a really good idea. I think it’s also helpful if you can articulate what job responsibilities (or future job responsibilities) these opportunities would tie to. (For instance, I’m putting together a justification for one of my staff to attend a fairly pricey course that is most often attended by people with a professional degree she does not have, so we are focusing on how this training will help her take on A, B, and C additional responsibilities that will reduce costs to our clients/broaden the scope of services offered/whatever organizational benefit we derive from it.) Being able to connect training to job responsibilities is also important, and it always makes you look good when you show up prepared with ideas.

    1. Dizzy Steinway*

      Disagree. It’s mild, in that it’s not as offensive as the f-word, but it is definitely swearing. It’s not something you’d say in front of customers in a public-facing role, or in front of children.

      2. Cambridge Comma*

        But it’s also not something children get told off for saying, typically. It’s in a different league, along with blimey, crikey, sod it, etc.

        1. Dizzy Steinway*

          Actually, sod is more offensive than crikey, because it’s short for sodomy and is a homophobic profanity. It’s a misconception that it’s as benign as crickey.

          1. My name is boring*

            TIL.
            I always thought sod, even in this context, meant dirt or grass, either in the sense of sod it being the equivalent of “bury it” or as in golf where you hit the ground instead of the ball.

          2. Cambridge Comma*

            Maybe, but it’s not e.g. something that gets bleeped out on the radio. Nobody would bat an eyelid if you said it in public.

          3. Calam*

            But if you follow the etymology of swearing we wouldn’t have any left at all.

            Take ‘berk’, benign enough to be used as a character name in a kids programme (don’t you open that TRAPDOOR) but came originally from cockney rhyming slang, ‘Berkshire Hunt’ or Cunt.

          4. Elizabeth West*

            I bet a lot of British people say “Sod off” without knowing that. I know a lot of people who say they got gypped and don’t realize it’s a slur against Romany people. (Note that I’m not saying it’s okay.)

          5. Rachel*

            Yeah, apparently they cut it from an episode of The Simpsons where Flanders says he’s “sodding the lawn”, ie putting down new sod. Or maybe it was that it almost got cut, before they argued that it was the non-sodomy meaning, i don’t recall.

          1. London Calling*

            Tell children off for saying bloody hell and f*** and all the other expletives and you’ve got yourself a full time job, especially in London

      3. OP5 Writer*

        Thanks for this. Asking “would you say this in front of children” is a good meter for our workplace communication style. I don’t even say “That sucks.” I say “that stinks” when something goes wrong for a customer. I think some of my coworkers would say “That’s unfortunate” — we’re that careful!

    2. Gen*

      Might vary a bit by region, but it’s certainly not offensive in the North, though a teacher wouldn’t use “bloody” in school that often (“hell” they would use though. I remember everyone being stunned when we first got the internet and AOL classed it as a swearword) it’s about on par with damn.

    3. The Database Overlord*

      Agreed, it’s as mild as you can get and only the most prudish people would be offended by it.

    4. Key to the West*

      I think it depends on the usage!

      “Bloody Hell John, why did you do that?” Is borderline offensive I think, whereas “Bloody Hell John, that’s a bargain” is perfectly acceptable

      1. Mimi*

        This. Very much this.

        Bloody Hell really depends on whats going to follow it and who you are with. I wouldn’t hesitate to say it with friends but I would refrain in my office.

        As an American living in the UK, I dont really think the US has an equivalent to Bloody. Its more severe than shit or damn. But less severe than the f word.

            1. JaneB*

              It does vary – see my comment above. Depends if bloody is used to mean sanguinous or a blasphemous contraction, and also if it’s applied to an object or a person or a situation, and also how loudly/vehemently it’s used…

          2. fposte*

            Where does “bleeding” fall in there? My impression is there’s a class component to the use of that as well, but that it’s considerably stronger than “bloody.”

            1. Apollo Warbucks*

              I would have said bleeding is about the same as bloody, but maybe not quite as strong.

              1. fposte*

                Oh, interesting. That’s different from what it was in Wales in the 1980s, and I’m more surprised by variations in ordinal ranking than I am about variations in swearing taboo generally.

  22. that guy*

    #3 It’s really simple. If you want other people to respect your gender identity, and your preferred pronouns, then you have to respect theirs. You even say that in your letter: “This person says they respect my pronouns (true) and I need to respect theirs.”
    What you’re doing is harassment, and she should actually report you to HR.

  23. Cupquake*

    #5: Yeah…my dad grew up in India immediately post-British, and he says “bloody” and “bloody hell” as like the ultimate worst things. I’d avoid it in a business setting with non-Americans.
    (This is why it really amuses me in Harry Potter when little tiny Ron says “bloody hell”. It’s like a 12 year old here going oh f***. Just precious.)

    1. Cupquake*

      Reading other responses-maybe it’s a generational thing then? Because to my dad it’s a big deal and we got in trouble for saying it as youths.

      1. Gadfly*

        Well, there are a lot of American expletives that would fall into that–I know I say F#ck a LOT more than either of my grandmothers or my mother…

        Another thing to blame the internet for?

        1. Manders*

          Most of the “seven dirty words” that you couldn’t say on the radio are pretty tame by today’s standards.

          Nerd alert: we’re currently in the middle of a linguistic shift in the way we determine which words are offensive. We’re moving away from body part/genital/scatological swears being the worst possible thing into a new (and in my opinion, better!) era of treating gender/sexuality/racial slurs as the worst possible words.

          This isn’t the first time English has gone through this kind of shift; way back in the 1400s, some of the worst possible swear words had a strong religious meaning. A few of those survive today, such as “gorblimey” and “blimey” from “God blind me,” but are considered very mild indeed by today’s standards.

          The weird part of this is that it’s happening at different speeds in different locations and within different subcultures. So the same words can range from harmless to shocking depending on where you are and who you’re talking to.

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Oh, that would explain the skew! My grands and parents all think it’s worse than “damn,” but not as bad as the f-word. Regardless, they’d all say it’s completely unprofessional and inappropriate in the workplace. But they also derive their norms from whatever was acceptable in the 1960s through early 80s, so perhaps their standards are frozen in time while norms have since changed.

      3. Obelia*

        I’m English, living in the UK and working in the public sector, and I could get away with saying “bloody hell” at work though obviously not f-bomb.

        Put it this way, I probably wouldn’t raise too many eyebrows by saying it in the office (although a few people would disapprove and I wouldn’t want to do it too often), but it would be thoroughly unprofessional to say it in a meeting.

        1. Obelia*

          That said, I certainly would not use it in a “very decorous” workplace like the one described, so if that’s what the OP’s UK visitors/colleagues are expecting to find, they may find the use of that phrase pretty jarring.

          1. OP5 Writer*

            Yep, that’s why I asked. In a place where anything stronger than “darnit” is not allowed, would “bloody” be appropriate? Would using bloody in place of the worst words be like saying “flipping”?

            1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              I mean, if y’all can’t say “darnit,” then I don’t think bloody pasts muster. It’s a swear word, not a substitute like “darn” and “flipping.”

              “Darn” isn’t even a curse word, and “bloody” is, which seems to categorically exclude it under your workplace’s rules.

    2. Nic*

      To your parenthetical, JK Rowling has mentioned in interviews that she intended Ron to be a potty mouth. :) Your vision is right.

    3. Cambridge Comma*

      It’s nowhere near that bad and hasn’t been since at least the 8os (Mrs Weasley wouldn’t let him get away with it if it were).

    4. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Yup. Mom’s family was British. And my grandfather used “bloody” the same way we use f-bombs. Same tone of voice, volume, etc. We tend to slip back and forth between the two when angry enough to cuss. It’s definitely a lot hotter than “oh nuts”.

      1. Ange*

        “Bloody” was my mum’s worst swearword as well but not because it’s really strong – because it was the strongest swearword she was comfortable saying.

      2. I am not a lawyer but,*

        I worked with German and British nationals in the 90’s and my favorite story is when the one Brit went to our American office manager to “file a complaint that that f*ing kraut said bloody hell in my presence. How dare he f’ing swear at me like that!”

    5. OP5 Writer*

      Thanks for pointing out the Indian connection. I hadn’t thought of that. We have international customers who may be from places where they learned English as a second language. Erring on the side of caution, we should probably avoid the chance of offending someone. It’s not like there aren’t milder expletives to choose from.

  24. Fire*

    #3 – I am non-binary. I have never heard anyone use the logic you’re using here. Pronouns like xey/ze/em/ne etc etc are not so much gender neutral in that they can apply to any gender, but are gender neutral in that they are not male or female. They’re not a catch-all for everything, by any means. It is certainly considered to be more considerate in my circles to default to neutral and not male or female, but once someone tells you what their gender is it is absolutely disrespectful to continue referring to them as if they are neither male nor female. You ARE misgendering her – you are insisting she is not really female but actually non-binary or some other way to have a neutral gender by refusing to use female pronouns for her and using neutral pronouns.

    Even taking that out of it, I honestly cannot wrap my mind around how someone professing to wanting to create a safe space for trans people would do that by explicitly disrespecting someone’s pronouns. It upsets me on a deeply visceral level. You are not creating a safe space for trans people. Even if this particular woman is cis, other trans people will not see you openly disrespecting someone’s stated wishes on how to be addressed and think “this person will help me make sure other people respect how I wish to be addressed.”

    1. NoMoreMrFixit*

      It’s really pretty simple. You have every right to tell others how you wish to be addressed/referred to. But you have no right at all to tell others how you will address them, especially when they have already told you how they wish to be referred to. It’s a two way street. In some jurisdictions gender identity is now a protected class and asking others about it could get you into some serious trouble.

    2. MuseumChick*

      Fire, thank you for this comment. It is so thoughtful, nuanced, and well reasoned. I’m glad I came across it.

    3. Not Karen*

      Well said. I’m also non-binary and would feel disrespected if someone referred to me as xey/ze/em/ne etc. because my pronouns are they/them.

  25. Indoor Cat*

    Also, re “bloody hell,” / #4, Ron Weasley and other characters say this in the Harry Potter movies, and they’re generally rated PG (save for the scariest ones). So, as a young American child, I definitely had no idea this was ruder than just saying “hell,”– the way saying, “hot damn!” isn’t really ruder than saying “damn,” although it’s funnier when you’re, like, ten.

    Definitely glad I was corrected about this prior to actually working with people from the UK. Although it does make me wonder why it was allowed in a PG movie?

      1. LilyPearl*

        I asked my younger sister about this as she’s more familiar with Harry Potter than me – she said “well, Ron’s a teenage boy under a considerable amount of stress quite a lot of the time… Bloody hell is quite mild if Voldemort’s trying to kill you; not so acceptable in a customer service role.”

  26. Becky*

    OP #2
    Even if this is the boss’ prerogative to require stricter dress, he’s going about it in a really immature way. So far he has not given any reasons for the departure from the corporate communication on the topic, and even if the reason were “because I said so” you don’t do that by hiding the flyers and pretending they don’t exist!

    1. Naomi*

      Yes! What’s weird about this letter isn’t so much the manager’s aversion to jeans as the passive-aggressive way he’s expressing it. If he has the authority to insist on a stricter dress code, he can tell his employees outright not to wear jeans, and if he doesn’t have that authority then he’ll just have to put up with some denim. In neither case should he be trying to prevent people from wearing jeans by sneakily suppressing the information that jeans are allowed.

      1. Liane*

        I wonder how pleased his superiors would be if they knew what he was doing. Maybe they might wonder if he was going to hide or carry out the next policy change, on something more important than holiday jeans?

    2. NoMoreMrFixit*

      Sounds like the manager knows they don’t have the authority to change the jeans rule and is trying to hide that fact. Some people do have hangups about denim for whatever reason. Had one person I reported to for a short period tell me I couldn’t wear jeans because they don’t look professional on us overweight people. The less abundant folks could wear them no problems. I didn’t last too much longer after that before quitting in disgust. Unfortunately that kind of pettiness is typically symptomatic of larger issues.

  27. Tui*

    From the NZ rather than the UK (just for a bit of variety in the Swear Report). “bloody” isn’t very strong here – weak enough that I will sometimes substitute it for “fucking” in a situation where I have decided I don’t want to say “fucking” for professional or personal reasons – but it’s still a swear. I personally wouldn’t be bothered by it at all (I think we are generally fairly relaxed about effing and blinding in NZ, and I also wouldn’t be bothered by colleagues using “fuck”) but if you’re pruning all swear words out of your language, it counts.

    I think I’d probably be a bit more bothered at the idea that these genuine swear words were cute little substitutes, to be honest. Just because they’re not offensive to you, doesn’t mean they’re not offensive at all …

    1. dragonzflame*

      Same with ‘bugger’. Most NZ workplaces wouldn’t blink at someone using that. I think a lot, like bloody hell, depends on context, audience, and the spirit in which it’s used.

  28. Casuan*

    OP2: Odd jeans aversion… three thoughts.
    1) Does your boss own a franchise? If so, the call is probably his to make. However, this doesn’t seem the case because your manager is actually hiding the notices; it’s like he knows he’s in the wrong.
    2) Ask him why he doesn’t like the policy! Perhaps he thinks your clientele wouldn’t approve or… just ask him. Then you can ask if Corporate has left the decision to individual managers. If you doubt his reply, then ring Corporate yourself. If your manager lied, that isn’t a good thing & you shouldn’t call him out on it, although it is information you can file away under “Things to Know About My Manager.”
    3) *paradigm only* This could be a psychological thing, which would not be your place to determine or resolve. An acquaintance has a strong dislike towards a certain blue jeans’ manufacturer because his mum had worked in the factory & she developed a fatal cancer. He wears blue jeans, although not from that manufacturer.

    Hopefully you can update us one day; I’m bloody curious!!
    [oops… I couldn’t resist that word just this once; I don’t mean offence]

    1. Is it Performance Art*

      I have met plenty of people who think of jeans as sloppy or unprofessional. It sort of makes sense given that it there are a lot of trends that involve jeans that are somehow made to look like they’re old as the hills and ready to be tossed. There were ripped in the ’80s and ’90s and are supposedly making a comeback. And then there were the acid-washed jeans from the ’80s. But they really haven’t been in style for years. And there are plenty of jeans out there that look fine for a casual workplace.

      1. Kj*

        Yeah, I wear dark jean+ nice blouse to work often, as do my co-workers. We are professionals and that is acceptable. Acid-washed jeans with holes are not, but I personally think my black skinny jeans+black and white top is a very professional outfit (for my west coast office- I’m aware this would not fly in many other places, but we are pretty casual overall here).

        I think this manager could manage the types of jeans people wear if that is a concern- make a rule they have to be dark and no holes.

      2. Allison*

        Don’t forget about JNCO jeans! Or the trend of wearing loose jeans that sag halfway down your butt, or the “whale tail” trend in the mid 2000’s. Pretty sure those are a bad idea in even the chillest tech startups.

        But at every workplace I’ve been where jeans are allowed, even in retail, they’ve had to be in good condition, fit right, and not show any skin over the top.

      1. Casuan*

        Theoretically, yes, because one can develop a phobia against anything.
        The same is true of allergies. A few months agoI learnt that there are a few people who are literally allergic to water. I felt horrible for them… Even though the article described this allergy, I can’t even imagine how life is for them.

        To be clear, my comment wasn’t meant to suggest a phobia. Rather it was to convey there could be psychological reasons why the manager doesn’t like jeans.

        1. Thlayli*

          I’m not an expert on mental illness by any means and I don’t want to armchair diagnose (especially since that is against site rules). I may have misunderstood the letter but the OP says the manager hid behind their computer among all the computer cables (is that under their desk???) when they received a message from head office that jeans would be allowed. That suggests to me that there’s something more going on than just “doesn’t like jeans”. Something psychological. It seems a pretty extreme reaction and reminded me of the phobia discussed in yesterday’s post. But it could be any number of other things.

          2. bloo*

            The manager hid *the notices from corporate*. He didn’t physically hide his own body.

            1. Thlayli*

              Oh! Oh! I totally misunderstood that.

              I thought he was cowering under his desk at the thought that people might wear jeans to work!

        1. Casuan*

          Caro, if your question is for me… No sarcasm intended. If it was for Thlayli, I took it as a serious query.
          Of course, if it was for neither of us, ignore this. :)
          (it’s difficult to tell post hierarchy on my device)

          1. Caro in the UK*

            It was for Thlayli :) It just seemed like such an odd comment to make and it’s so difficult to tell context in the written word!

            1. Thlayli*

              Yeah I totally misread the story and thought the manager hid behind the computer himself, not that he hid the leaflets there.

              Hiding behind the computer at the thought of people wearing jeans would be a bit unusual in all fairness.

  29. Leah*

    For #1, maybe instead of making the survey personal, you could have it solely about the work you’ve been doing- ie instead of “How is my performance in regards to X and Y projects?” it could be something like “how would you rate the results of “X and Y”?

    1. INTP*

      I was going to make the same suggestion. To be honest, I’d be a bit uncomfortable being asked to rank someone’s performance on a good-bad scale if they aren’t my subordinate. For one, it’s a lot of work to ask of people for your personal use when it isn’t their job, and it’s also just unpleasant to rank people and give them critical personal feedback. I understand the impulse, but just don’t think it’s a great idea. But I wouldn’t mind an email along the lines of “I’m trying to improve my teapot distribution report processes, could you please let me know if there’s anything I could do next time to make this go more smoothly for the chocolate glazing team?” I’d happily provide that feedback if I could think of anything. (If asked in the form of an external link survey with multiple questions, I’d fill it out if I wasn’t busy, but if I’m completely honest, might never get around to it if I knew it was anonymous anyways.)

  30. that guy*

    #1
    A survey would be weird and people will probably just roll their eyes and ignore it. I would suggest that you identify a few issues relating to your work that you need some feedback on. Then have some informal chats with people and ask them about it. As in “Do you think the way I handled X was OK?” Something like that.

    1. Casuan*

      Agree.
      You could push the “Was it okay?” a little & try something like “I wasn’t sure if you wanted the entire thing in purple font, so I played it safe & went with black.”
      OP1, as a general rule you should assume your work is good. If there are certain areas on which you have questions, start with the colleagues with whom you’re closest &or talk with your manager on how to best get the type of feedback you need.
      Good luck!

      1. that guy*

        Yes. When I typed my comment I actually included something about being very specific when you ask for feedback. But I always over-edit everything, so that line went missing.
        SO basically ask them “I did {insert specifics}, but I thought that maybe the client would think {whatever}. Do you agree? How would you have handled that situation?” Make it a conversation while having coffee, instead of some official “on a scale of 1 to 10” thing.

    2. Tex*

      Or be more open ended with your questions, but the answers might be subtle so read between the lines: “Do you have any thoughts on streamlining/improving the interaction between our roles during projects?”

    3. Mazzy*

      Yeah, just talk to them. Unless they just say everything is great I wouldn’t push a survey

    4. VicCatLady*

      I wouldn’t ask “Do you think the way I handled X was OK?” Many people — especially women, I’m sorry to say — will take it as you wanting reassurance and will eagerly reassure you, whatever their true opinion may be. It’s likely to work better if you ask what went well and what could be improved, or some variation on that.

  31. Nobody Here By That Name*

    I’m cisgender but of the LBGT tribe. Others have already covered the issue of using the pronouns and names someone has asked you to use simply because that is the polite and respectful thing to do. I would also point out that gender neutral is, in and of itself, considered a gender identity by some who do not identify as male, female, or genderfluid. So it’s not entirely correct to say that it’s impossible to misgender someone because you’re using gender neutral pronouns. For some it’s akin to saying you didn’t misidentify their religion because you said they didn’t have one.

    I do look forward to the future when culture and linguistics settles down a bit more to make pronouns easier on everybody. But in the meanwhile we can ask people how they would like to be called and go with what they tell us.

    As for proactively trying to make people comfortable who don’t use pronouns that match their gender presentation, may I suggest making it the norm to offer yours in conversation in much the same way you would if you went by a nickname? My friends and I (cis and transgender alike) have found this encourages an environment for people to share their identity if they choose to do so while also maintaining a safe space for them NOT to share if they’d rather not.

  32. Gaia*

    OP 5 – I hear bloody hell pretty often when working with my UK coworkers. It is often said with an eyeroll and a sigh.

    1. NewHerePleaseBeNice*

      Ditto – I’m in the UK and it’s a common phrase. The photocopier’s broken again? Oh, bloody hell. The bloody bus was late AGAIN. Bloody HELL it’s cold outside.

      Etc. etc. It’s really a very ‘mild’ swear in my workplace, used to express frustration. No-one would be offended by it.

  33. Apollo Warbucks*

    #3 OP you are being really rude and inconsiderate to your coworker, she has asked you directly to stop using gender neutral pronouns with her and you even say she respects your pronouns.

    Also you say in your letter you thought she might be tans, what difference does that make to anything, and why would it change your response to the situation? She’s made it very clear how she’d like to be referred to and you should respect that.

  34. Patches*

    #5 I am Australian and “bloody” and “bloody hell” are definitely considered swear words here.

    1. Julie Noted*

      I don’t know where you are in Australia, but in all the parts I’ve lived and worked in (eastern states, city and rural), it’s really, really not. There’s bloody hell in the office, there’s bloody hell at school, occasionally even there’s bloody hell at church.

      1. Apollo Warbucks*

        Yeah I was surprised to hear they are considered swear words in Australia, I lived there for a bit and it didn’t seem to me like they were.

        On a side not the Victorian state government ran a road safety campaign with the strapline “Don’t be a dickhead” which I thought was awesome.

  35. Patches*

    #2 I don’t think the Hill of Jeans is the one I want to die on here. Personally I find that jeans are the LEAST comfortable pants to wear. Your boss is being super weird but I would suggest that one way to succeed at work is to do what your boss wants, so don’t wear jeans on those few days if it’s such an issue. Don’t get passed over for promotion, recommendations, pay hikes etc because you made a fuss about pants.

    1. Mimi*

      I dont think its about jeans. I think the bigger issue is their manager is withholding a perk their corporate office is offering employees. And its a perk that would potentially help make a really stressful time of year be more enjoyable. Is it a hill worth dying for? Probably not, not for like 10 or 11 days a year. But it is a waste that he is ruining this goodwill building opportunity. And its something to file away as knowledge about him.

      Personally I would ask for clarification. Or try and get a group together to push back in numbers. But thats the OP’s choice.

      And some people do feel jeans are very comfortable. Everyone has their preference.

    2. Mookie*

      Hill of Jeans sounds like a kind of Valhalla. So long as high waists remain in revival mode, I’ll want to go there someday. Everybody’s thighs will be making rubbing sounds and people will go months without washing just to get the buggers molded skin-tight.

    3. Observer*

      I’m not sure I agree with you. You may not find jeans comfortable, but the OP obviously DOES, so it’s not useful to tell her that they shouldn’t push the issue because of that.

      Doing what the Boss says is generally a good idea, but there are exceptions to that. In this case, getting the Boss’ objections on the record then checking with Corporate makes a lot of sense. Using the structures in place to benefit yourself is a valuable skill, just a learning which fights to choose is a valuable skill.

      1. paul*

        And to be frank……it’s a retail job. In most areas those are not impossible to come buy (I’m assuming OP isn’t like an assistant store manager or something). If it gets untenable, move on. You’ll have learned about standing upf or yourself, using process in place to protect you, etc.

        It’s a good skill to learn, and I wish I’d been more forthright with that sort of thing as a youth/young adult.

        1. Naruto*

          I think this is a good point. If you’re working at Best Buy, maybe this is a hill you want to risk dying on, when “death” only means that you’ll need to go get a job at Target instead.

  36. ruff orpington*

    #1 For personal use, the survey is a bit over the line. I also just think that it’s not going to be practical for the feedback you want because it’s so outside the norm. I know that if I recieved this from a coworker, I’d a) probably ignore it because it seems like more work than it’s worth for me, and b) be concerned about privacy and pushback from anything I did say.

    That being said, I think you *could* use a survey to get feedback on something that you’ve initiated. For example, after a change in the intranet, my company’s IT team sent out a small survey (with potential for prizes if you filled it out!). This is a kind of survey that people are used to doing, and would not seem out of the ordinary. Just keep it short, and make sure that it’s OK with your management.

  37. Thlayli*

    Regarding OP3 I don’t want to “pile on” the OP but I haven’t seen any comments addressing something I think is important for the OP to understand. (If this has been said before I apologise). OP you are not just disrespecting your coworker you are quite possibly causing her distress.

    We don’t have enough information to know the situation this lady is in, so I’m going to frame this as a hypothetical. Imagine a young girl who is not sterotypically feminine but is cishet. Imagine she gets bullied at school for looking/ sounding/ acting masculine. this is a typical experience for non feminine girls). Imagine the guys she likes make fun of her and she overhears them laughing about how masculine she is (another typical thing non-feminine girls experience). Imagine she grows up, gets a job and believes she has left all that schoolyard nastiness behind her for good.

    Now imagine she gets a coworker who insists on referring to her with gender neutral pronouns and asks her to her face if she is a trans woman.

    In this hypothetical situation she would be directly reminded of the bullying and being cast out she experienced as a teenager. It would be incredibly painful. Coworker then continues to use non-female pronouns to refer to her, even after being politely asked not to. Every time she hears these pronouns she feels the sting of pain she felt as a child.

    It’s not inappropriate or transphobic for her to find it upsetting that OP thinks she is trans. It’s extremely understandable that she would be upset.

    Like I said we don’t know the situation here, and maybe it’s not at all like this hypothetical situation. But this is a very plausible scenario.

    OP please stop what you are doing.

    1. seejay*

      One of the things I felt upon re-reading the letter is that the OP comes across as bullying by insisting that she use her preferred method of referring to the coworker, despite what the coworker has asked her to use. Because yes, ignoring someone’s direct request at what could very well be at the cost of their comfort solely to make a point (because that’s what you’re doing OP, this isn’t about your comfort here, really), is just flat out bullying.

      I’m not even going to get into hypothetical what if scenarios about her possible past, just the fact that it’s pretty much workplace bullying is enough on its own to say that you need to knock this off and give her the respect she’s given you, for her sake and yours.

      1. Anon for this*

        Honestly maybe I’m too close to the situation but just reading this letter reminded me of some of the most hurtful experiences of my teenage years. If someone asked me if I was trans I would flashback to the multiple times guys insulted me by referring to my penis when I was a (straight cisgender) teenage girl.

        You are right, OP is a bully. And of course, like most bullies, OP thinks they are totally in the right and it’s the victims fault.

        1. seejay*

          I’m trying to keep my own personal feelings out of it, from being bullied in grade and highschool myself, not being misgendered but there was a whole host of things I was picked on, and what jumped out at me was how the OP is just outright refusing to back down despite requests otherwise, and that they’re even trying to figure out how to escalate it.

          I can understand how the OP is part of a discriminated group normally and wants to make sure they’re not, but punching out like this isn’t how you do it. And just because you *are* normally part of the group that’s discriminated and victimized doesn’t make you immune from being the bully in return, even towards someone of the dominant group, and it’s especially mean and does a great disservice to the grounds gained for the discriminated and victimized if you use the allowances you’ve made to damage others. I’ve not seen a single person in this entire post (on either the straight *or* queer sides) saying that what you’re doing is right OP, and that it’s got the potential to do a lot of damage to you instead. Or potentially backfire if you *do* manage to get your coworker in trouble for some form of discrimination. You won’t gain allies and friends in your workplace doing this, you will upset people and ostracize them and that’s not what you want, because this isn’t the right action to take.

          Please take everything people have said to heart and really rethink your stance. No one is saying this to hurt you or be mean, but to help you see how your thought process is really going to cause a lot of damage. :(

        2. Allie*

          Well or for those of us who struggled with explaining the difference between sexual orientation and gender or who were pressured on gender expression due to sexual orientation. People sometimes assume if you’re dating another woman, you’re more masculine, but that’s certainly not always the case.

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Yes! And agreed with Thlayli that OP’s behavior might be causing the coworker distress, as well (even if none of the background hypos are true, having a coworker purposely misgender you can feel invisibilizing, demoralizing, and disrespectful—that’s not cool, and we shouldn’t propagate that kind of invalidating behavior).

      3. seejay*

        Also I apologize, I used gendered pronouns to refer to LW#3, that wasn’t intentional.

    2. Julie Noted*

      Seconded. So very strongly seconded.

      OP, if you refused to refer to me as “she” and “her” after I asked you to? NOPE. If you went to HR to complain about me asking to be called “she” instead of “ze”? Oh my God NOPE.

      You are bullying this woman. Cut it out.

  38. Thlayli*

    OP1: I don’t think your request is a good idea and I agree with Alison’s suggestion of asking directly for feedback.

    I would also add that engineers in general tend to be logical and factual by nature and not as concerned with tact and emotions as other professions. (Obviously there are exceptions.)

    If you ask for feedback from an engineer please be prepared to get factual non-emotive feedback. you may well get a list of every little thing you are doing even slightly wrong.

    Make sure you ask for examples of things you do right too, or you could find the process upsetting.

    1. Thlayli*

      Just to be clear – I meant the survey is not a good idea. I’m all for asking for feedback directly!

    2. that guy*

      “engineers in general tend to be logical and factual by nature and not as concerned with tact and emotions”

      Is this really a thing? I am an engineer, and every day I’m surrounded by about 100 engineers. And I have never seen this non-emotive thing people talk about. In my experience engineers are exactly like anybody else.

      1. Thlayli*

        Like I said there are exceptions. But in my experience engineers value fact more than emotion. Not all, but most.

        I am also an engineer and work in an engineering company. If someone asked me for feedback my initial response would be to type up a list of everything they are doing wrong. If I was busy then that list is all they would get. If I had the time I would probably try to “tact it up” but that takes effort and hassle so would only happen if I wasn’t busy.

        It may also be an industry culture thing. For most of my career I’ve worked in construction/heavy industry type of work.

        Being tactful is a definite benefit for an engineer since it is necessary to become a manager, so it can help with advancement. But there are many many engineers who are fantastic engineers and haven’t a tactful bone in their body. For many engineering jobs tact actually isn’t necessary so it’s no surprise that tactless people last longer in engineering than they would in nursing for example.

        1. seejay*

          My JR dev cries when he gets stressed, then yells and barks at me.

          I’ve been sorely tempted to ask him if its his “time of month”* because I have no other way to figure out what else crawled up his butt and died when he rips my head off for no reason. He’s one of the most emotionally weird engineers I’ve had the annoyances to deal with it. :/

          *(tongue firmly planted in cheek)

          1. Loose Seal*

            I just want to point out that referring to a man’s “time of the month” may seem like a harmless joke to you but what you are (perhaps unknowingly) doing is reducing him to the worst thing you can think of: a woman. How do you think women feel when they see or hear that? And it’s not even the menstruation part, although that’s got its own baggage. If your joke was that he cried so you offered to get him some lipstick (like I heard someone telling their 6-year-old at little league when he got hurt and cried), it would still be using a woman as an example of the worst thing you could insult a man with.

            Maybe just ask him, “What’s your problem?” Or “What’s with you today?” I assume you’re this person’s supervisor. You can ask them directly what’s going on without making a joke, whether in poor taste or not.

            1. Observer*

              This is such a timely comment – it fits right into the discussion of mis-gendering that’s happening in response to #3.

              It’s an interesting point – misgendering can actually harm others, not just the person being misgendered.

          2. Observer*

            It’s a rather offensive joke – what Seejay said is true. But, also the implication that women all go off the deep end during “that time of month” is not just offensive, it’s highly damaging. It really feeds into the idea that women are “too volatile” to handle many jobs.

          3. Thlayli*

            I think I worded it badly. Engineers feel emotion – we are human! But many of us are not great at factoring emotions into our decisions or communication. Both our own emotions (in the case of your stressed out manager) and others emotions (in the case of The type of feedback I’m warning OP to expect).

            The fact that your boss deals with his emotions really badly actually completely supports the point I was trying to make.

            In many engineering roles basing decisions on logic, fact and numbers is paramount – you simply can’t let emotion interfere with engineering decisions. So it’s jot really surprising that many (not all) engineers don’t deal with emotion well – other people’s or their own.

            Like I said, there are many exceptions and I am not trying to malign anyone else. I know many engineers who are tactful and deal with their and other people’s emotions well. I know more who do not.

            Another good example of engineers not being tactful is this post. I was attempting to be tactful and take OPs emotions into account by letting OP know that she could be opening herself up to very direct criticism by asking engineers for feedback. Just like many other times I’ve tried to be tactful it has backfired and it seems like people have the impression I am trying to insult engineers. Which I am not.

        2. Anonymous 40*

          I definitely think this may be a “hard” engineering vs “soft” engineering thing. Working in IT, I’d expect the graduate-level EEs and CSEs working on hardware to fit the stereotype more than developers. Though in all fairness, I think there’s a difference between a developer and a software engineer that’s frequently overlooked in casual usage.

        3. Judy*

          As an engineer, I’d say that most engineers are more task oriented than relationship oriented. I’ve certainly not seen that they’re less emotional.

      2. Whats In A Name*

        I was wondering the same – my pap was an engineer before he retired and worked building large industrial plants. I would say when it comes to work and even home projects this is definitely the case; definitely wants facts and not the theory in why something works the way it does. They want plumb lines and perfect corners in all cases.

        My mom is a pipe designer in a heavily male office. She says the engineers are like teenage girls at times and definitely don’t identify as non-emotive.

    3. Mookie*

      I think some of this is unnecessarily condescending. Nothing about the LW’s letter suggests they are unable to handle “non-emotive feedback” or that they’ll be upset when given an answer to a straightforward question. The LW mentions facts and the systematic gathering thereof, not feelings.

  39. Turanga Leela*

    OP #1, you might also try framing your questions to focus on the work product, rather than on your performance. If you can ask something like, “Was the teapot design what you were looking for? What would you improve for next time?” that might be easier for them to answer than questions about how you’re doing at your job.

    1. Bookworm*

      That’s a great suggestion. It’s much easier to talk critically about a work product than a person or a person’s overall contribution.

      It also helps get ideas flowing. Unless someone has an egregious flaw, I’m going to be stumped when asked how they can improve (especially since I don’t know what else they’re prioritizing, etc.) but I will generally have something to say about the deliverables I look at.

  40. Thlayli*

    OP5 – whether bloody hell ia offensive or not differs in the UK – it can even differ from person to person. It seems from your letter that it’s not British clients you are worried about but a particular British coworker(s) who you think may be offended. Why not just ask the British coworker? If you tell Ron to stop cursing in case it offends Hermione, the first thing he will do is ask Hermione if she is actually offended. You’ll look pretty silly if Hermione then says she doesn’t find bloody hell offensive at all!

    Also – your colleague is most likely not trying to be pretentious; they are probably just trying to use “acceptable” swear words. There is actual scientific evidence that cursing is helpful to some people in some situations. A study found that for some people cursing allowed them to experience discomfort for a significantly longer period of time. Another study found that when we curse we use different parts of our brain to when we talk normally. It is genuinely beneficial for some people.

    I suspect that your coworker is just trying to get the benefit of using curse words without falling afoul of workplace rules (explicit or implicit) about cursing. Just because you think bloody hell is pretentious doesn’t mean other people think it is.

    1. Relly*

      I like the idea of asking your coworkers — it could backfire, though, if they’re the type to not make waves. Asking someone outright “would you be offended if I _________?” won’t necessarily get you an honest answer.

      1. Thlayli*

        Fair point. Actually having thought about it now I don’t think theres any way to bring it up. I think OP should leave it alone.

        Another thing that occurs to me is that location matters in this. given that it’s not offensive in the US, and British coworker is living in the US, then I think it’s on British coworker to bring it up, not OP.

        I’m trying to think of a good analogy – maybe “feck” in Ireland/Britain. In Ireland “feck” is not considered offensive at all and is used as a substitute for sweat words when you don’t want to swear (like saying “fudge” as another commenter mentioned above). But in Britain it’s considered really offensive – similar to the f-word. If a British person was working in Ireland the onus would be on them to let coworkers know that it hurts their feelings when they hear it (and honestly they should probably just get used to it coz they’ll hear it plenty outside work). But for an Irish person working in Britain the onus is on them to stop saying it because it’s offensive in that country.

        Generally in the workplace you should go by the cultural norms of the country where you are living and working. The exception would be if it’s something potentially causing people to feel discriminated against e.g. I don’t think it would ever be OK to use the n-word in a workplace, regardless of cultural norms.

        1. EleanoraUK*

          Agreed, I think the best think the OP can do is forget about it.

          If Hermione finds it offensive, she can speak to Ron directly, but I’m not sure there is any benefit to the OP getting involved. Heading off offense on behalf of other people – especially if they’ve not asked you to – tends not to have great results.

        2. MeridaAnn*

          I think you could just ask Hermione about the usage with a curiosity approach. Like, “Hey, I know Ron uses ‘Bloody Hell’ a lot, but I’ve heard it has different connotations to different people in the UK. What’s your take on it?”

        3. Rachel*

          Mm, I’ve found the r-slur to be more prevalent in some areas, and especially the use of “spaz” in America, when I grew up in the UK being told that these ableist words were the worst of the worst. A girl once left my class crying because someone called her a spaz and her brother had CP, and had been targeted with that word before. To hear it casually in an American context, when “hyper” or “flailing” would do just as well… It hurts.

    2. OP5 Writer*

      To clarify, none of my coworkers is British (or Australian or Indian) but some of our customers are.

      I did not mean to imply that all expletives should be excised, only to ask if these particular ones could be considered offensive. There are other words a person can use to express frustration, such as “stupid photocopier” or “Oh, rats!” I have no problem with that.

      1. Thlayli*

        I think it’s reasonable to ask your staff not to curse at all in front of customers. Even really really mild curses like bloody.

        I’m a bit confused why you would single out British curse words and allow American ones in front of customers though. But perhaps I’m misunderstanding you.

  41. lb*

    #1, I think a survey isn’t the best idea for a couple of reasons. First, because people generally hate filling out performance reviews and I bet you’d get an extremely slim return rate.

    Second, I think your attitude toward feedback is really admirable and it’s one I share, but I also know that it’s pretty rare. Most people are conditioned to understand feedback as negative. Just think about it – if your boss wants to tell you something good, they just say “Hey Jane, great work on that project.” But if they want to tell you something not so great, they say “Jane, I have some feedback for you about that project.” So in many workplaces, people are conditioned to dread feedback. Many of your coworkers probably do! So the idea of someone craving more feedback than what’s required is going to seem odd.

    You’ll want to give them some context about what exactly you’re looking for and why you’re asking. It could be as simple as announcing the idea at the end of your next team meeting, then saying you’ll be following up with people once they’ve had some time to think about it. Perhaps you can give examples of the kind of comments you’re looking for, positive and negative. If you model that you’re excited to receive their thoughts, even the negative, you might be able to convince them that you really mean it! Good luck.

    1. CM*

      I think it’s weird to do this as a group thing, unless you are in management and you’re imposing it on your reports. I wouldn’t announce at a group meeting that you’ll be asking everyone for feedback. Just have one-on-one conversations, and I think you’ll be more successful if, instead of demanding a performance review, you focus on a particular issue that you are concerned about. For example, “I’ve been trying to work on my presentation skills. What did you think of the talk I gave the other day — do you have any ideas for how I can improve?” or, “I think the project went pretty well, but I was wondering if you had any feedback about things that we could do better next time.”

      If I were asked for formal written feedback from a coworker, I would think that it was so out of the norm that I would be wary in all my interactions with the coworker. I don’t mean to be unkind to the OP here, but I would think that this is someone who does not understand social norms and is likely to misinterpret what I say or get angry.

  42. Marvel*

    2 – How odd. That would definitely bug me–I understand not liking jeans, but going THIS far to hide the corporate policy just seems comically obsessive on the subject. I would definitely run it by your district manager.

    3 – As a trans person, NO, do NOT do this. Non-binary IS a gender, and it doesn’t fit everyone, just like male and female don’t fit everyone. I would be beyond pissed if someone INSISTED on using gender neutral pronouns when I had told them those weren’t my pronouns. That is just as wrong as if someone used female pronouns for me. Do not, do not, do not do this.

    Also, you have no way of knowing if they are transgender, whatever they told you. They may not be out. It was rude of you to ask in the first place.

    5 – It’s good to know that this is considered much more profane in the UK! I’m so embarrassed now at my past self…

  43. Tau*

    Hey, #3:

    So I’m a nonbinary person preferring gender-neutral pronouns who isn’t out about it. That is to say, I’m one of the people you are saying that your policy is for.

    Accepting that I’m going to get binary pronouns is one of the trade-offs I’ve made for not being out at work. This is something I have thought over and have accepted. It’s not great, but it’s the way I prefer it and is the bargain I have struck. I don’t need someone else wading in to try to “fix” this for me, and using gender-neutral pronouns for everyone whether they want it or not wouldn’t make me feel particularly more respected or safe.

    Some other things I have to point out you don’t seem to have considered:
    – there’s a variety of NB pronouns in use and a lot of nonbinary people have distinct preferences. For some people, the wrong NB pronoun may not actually feel all that much better than a binary pronoun. (Especially if they view their pronoun as specifically nonbinary and not gender-neutral.) On that note, some NB people use binary pronouns.
    – Some nonbinary people would really prefer not to be pronouned at all. For them, gender-neutral pronouns may throw that into very sharp relief
    – NB people who aren’t out in a given context may genuinely not want to be referred to with gender-neutral pronouns in it, even if they technically prefer them and you’re making it a blanket policy. (E.g.: hearing you use them stresses them out because their knee-jerk reaction is that they’re being outed, having gender-neutral pronouns part of the time makes it harder for them to cope with binary pronouns the rest of the time, etc.)
    – and yeah, your policy forces binary trans people to out themselves or be misgendered. Forcing people to out themselves is never OK.

    OP#3, I do appreciate your thought and I’m sure your heart is in the right place, but you’re not going about this in a great way. If you want to support non-out NB people, I’d suggest doing what you can do make your workplace safer for trans people in general. Respecting everyone’s pronouns, trans or cis, is part of that, as is never pressuring people to out themselves.

    1. MuseumChick*

      Thank you for this comment! Very nuanced. Someone else said this elsewhere in the thread and I think it’s true. The OP as good intentions but poor judgment. I don’t read any ill intent, just a bit of tunnel vision. Though other’s have pointed out that this could be considered a form of bullying.

    2. DArcy*

      I’m not sure I’m willing to grant OP #3 the benefit of the doubt regarding “I’d respect their pronouns if they’re trans”. Their aggressive insistence on using nonbinary-specific pronouns smacks of militant gender liberation ideology, and that correlates strongly with, “If you’re trans, I’m going to misgender you even harder while also subjecting you to tirades about how your gender identity is bad, wrong, invalid, and offensive to right-thinking queer people.”

      1. Loose Seal*

        I look back on my life and I’m embarrassed at some of the stances I took, even when I thought I was advocating for someone else. I suspect that in twenty years, I’ll look back to now and cringe at some things I currently think, say, and believe.

        People’s attitudes and beliefs change over time — hopefully. Op3’s approach is ham-fisted now but could be changed and probably will change over time as ze works these things out.

        (I do not mean to imply OP is young or millennial or anything else involving age. I don’t want anybody to think I’m saying the young’uns are going to make mistakes. We all are going to make mistakes regardless of our age. OP is, at least, asking about what’s best to do even if ze’s asking not quite the right question.)

    3. Brogrammer*

      Not non-binary, so the exact details of the situation don’t apply to me, but I’m not straight and have chosen to be closeted in certain situations. This part of your post stood out to me:

      “Accepting that I’m going to get binary pronouns is one of the trade-offs I’ve made for not being out at work. This is something I have thought over and have accepted. It’s not great, but it’s the way I prefer it and is the bargain I have struck.”

      This calls attention to something that’s always bugged me about the “I’m just trying to be respectful of someone who might not be out yet” argument. If someone isn’t out, it’s important to respect their decision to not be out and not call attention to something that might put them at risk.

  44. kb*

    OP #2: How is your relationship with the DM? If y’all have a fairly cordial relationship and they come by the store regularly, you could casually ask if the jeans policy will be happening for the winter holidays. I’d wait until closer to December and ask when you and the DM are 1-on-1. Hopefully your DM will respond with a yes, even better if they mention it happens every year or that it’s a tradition. Then you can say, “Oh, we didn’t get to last year.” If this is new information for the DM, they can bring it up with the store manager if they’d like. If the DM doesn’t care, that stinks, but at least you know they know.
    If your DM already knew your store manager doesn’t go with it or it’s the DM who doesn’t like jeans, they’ll simply say no or say something like, “our district likes to keep things more formal.” You can end it there/ change the subject.
    If you’re nonchalant about the whole thing, it should read as “just clarifying policy” rather than “jeans are the hill I will die on!” I know the winter holiday season is super rough for retail, so every bit of comfort counts. I wish you luck, OP 2!

    1. kb*

      *If you think your store manager would blame you/ punish you for asking your DM, I’d avoid it just to keep peace at your job (comfortable pants are great, but probably not worth a boss’s ire), but know that means they’re being a crummy manager.

  45. MommyMD*

    Shaking my head. Going out of the way to make trouble among coworkers. Call people what they want to be called.

  46. H.C.*

    #2 Would colored (namely, black) jeans be a doable compromise next time around? I’ve worked in no-jeans workplaces, but black jeans look discreet enough that no one really noticed when I wore them.

    1. Kj*

      Yeah, I was wondering that. My dark jeans tend to get a pass as dress pants- typically I wear them with a long top so you can’t see the pocket styling as well. Jeans are OK for my office, but I like to look professional and I’ve decided that all my jeans are either colored or very dark so they look as professional as possible.

      1. CM*

        The boss has made it clear that jeans are not acceptable. I wouldn’t push it if I were the OP.

        1. Allison*

          That’s the thing though, he hasn’t clarified it. He’s being vague and passive, it’s fine for the OP to want clarity.

  47. Tee*

    Northern Ireland here. Bloody hell is bad but not as bad as f***.

    Unless you’re working for my old CEO who came up to me one day and said ‘Do you need me for anything or can I f*** off?’

    To which I replied, ‘You can f*** off.’

    But we all swore like crazy at that job. :D

    2. Kowalski! Options!*

      It’s funny, until the whole thing about swearing came up a few weeks ago (I forget which post it originally came up in), I wasn’t really aware of how much we swear in my office, and I work in a bilingual government department, so all of us tend to do it in English and French (though the English swear words get used more often – maybe because they’re monosyllabic). Most days we keep it under control, though a policy change caught us unawares on Tuesday, and the whole bunch of us ended up sounding like a gang of hung over sailors.

  48. London_Engineer*

    I really think Alison jumped the gun on the ‘bloody’ issue. Unless your coworker has time-travelled from the 50s it isn’t offensive at all. It isn’t really formal but that’s another issue.

    1. JustAnotherNonProfitManager*

      I think that’s why I struggled with it (and I’m a great big 50s throwback) – I’ve genuinely never heard someone say it at work…

      1. LilyPearl*

        I might say it to myself, or with colleagues I know well. I certainly say it around my friends. Not in front of my boss, in a meeting or with clients. Know your audience, know the context. And I think if in doubt, avoid.

        1. London Engineer*

          Fair enough, I suspect most language issues are subject to this kind of generational difference (I’m 26, middle class and from London if anyone wants context)

        2. OP5 Writer*

          That was my concern — we have a very diverse clientele and I don’t want them to be offended.

  49. meat_lord*

    LW #3 – I’m nonbinary and I’m not out at work, because it is not safe for me. That’s the only reason I’m commenting–everyone has already said what I’m going to say.

    Two things: 1) Use people’s correct pronouns–the ones they personally want to have used. You should know this. That coworker who makes you uncomfortable? She gets to go by she/her/hers, whether you like it or not. That is not transphobic of her, regardless of anything else she’s done.

    If I were in your workplace, any benefit I might get from hearing you use gender-neutral pronouns for me would be tainted by hearing you misgendering your coworkers. That’s not cool! I would *never* arbitrarily assign different pronouns to someone; that seems incredibly disrespectful.

    2) Do not ask people if they are trans. You, again, should know better. I live in fear that one of my coworkers will think to ask me this. I don’t want to be outed. If people want you, LW, to know that they are trans, they will ask.

    TL;DR: Stop misgendering your coworkers and please do not go to HR over this.

  50. Penguin! at the Disco*

    Right, I’ve never commented here before, but RE: 5 I need to say this: My very polite, very Irish coworker who would NEVER say a swear word uses “bloomin’ heck! and “flippin’ heck!” instead. It cracks me up e v e r y t i m e.

  51. JustAnotherNonProfitManager*

    OP#5 – Bloody Hell is a bit know your office but I probably wouldn’t use it and I swear fairly freely in certain professional circumstances. Bloody isn’t the issue – it’s the Hell bit because there’s still this feeling of blasphemy

    1. OP5 Writer*

      Good point. Nobody here would say “Hell if I know” or “Where the hell did he go?” so Britishifying it doesn’t make it acceptable.

  52. Chocolate Teapot*

    3. When I read this question, I was reminded of the letter from a while back about an employee with an ethnic background whose co-workers refused to address her by her proper name. (e.g. her name was Padma but they decided to call her Polly)

    1. DArcy*

      Yes, which is why I’m surprised at how much Allison’s response soft-pedals the issue when she was appropriately firm in that other letter.

  53. Kayleigh*

    #5 – I’m a Brit, and ‘bloody hell’ is so mild it barely registers as swearing to me! For context, I’d feel very comfortable saying it in front of my boss, and (in my very laid back office), nobody bats an eyelid when someone says it.

  54. London Calling*

    OP5 – I’m in the UK and wherever I’ve worked bloody hell wouldn’t raise an eyebrow, especially when used in moments of stress. TBH, people use swear works so much in the workplace that they don’t have any shock value. It might be considered profane if you are working among the easily shockable or people who think ‘women shouldn’t swear’ – yes, they still are around – but everywhere I’ve been for the last couple of decades it hasn’t been an issue.

  55. Erin*

    #3 Honestly, even asking about it is intrusive. You have no right to know if someone is transgendered until they are ready to tell you themselves. Does she need a justification for being addressed the way she prefers? Would you like to write an essay every time you want your choice to be respected?

  56. Rabbit*

    OP 3 – I sincerely hope this won’t come across as dog-piling, as I in no way intend it to be that, but I would also like to point out that this is a situation you may well encounter well beyond this one coworker at this one job.

    It’s wonderful that you felt comfortable enough in your own gender identity to come out and ask for pronouns that fit you and your identity and that your workplace has (over all) reacted remarkably well. But please do bear in mind that a significant portion of the population is likely to not be as comfortable with the gender spectrum. If you are in a client-facing position at any point in this position (or in your next jobs), you may want to seriously consider that some of your clients may not have encountered gender neutral pronouns at all and/or may be deeply uncomfortable with them.

    The recent cover story on Time magazine was the first time either my mother or grandmother had encountered the concepts of non-binary, genderfluid, or agender and well – Mom is considering them and will most likely adapt. My grandmother declared it all to be “liberal nonsense” and would be unlikely to respond well to anyone requesting that she use gender neutral pronouns in any way. In fact, I’m completely certain that if someone in a place of business or government ever referred to her with anything other than she/her pronouns there would be furious complaints made to management at the very least. While that is clearly far from the ideal response it’s also a far from unlikely one from a person from a conservative background much less a person who has several intersecting areas of privilege and from a conservative background.

    I am absolutely not saying this to tell you to stop using whatever pronouns work for you. I am saying that your approach to using gender neutral pronouns for everyone else may not be the best course of action, both for reasons that have been eloquently stated by others and also for some fairly ugly but realistic reasons. This may be important enough to you that you stick to your guns, but please do be aware that not everyone is educated and liberal on this subject and there may be some negative consequences for you – particularly in today’s political and social climate in the US, if that is where you live – if you decide that this is a line in the sand for you.

    1. Observer*

      This is really not even the issue. Even the most liberal people are unlikely to take well to being misgendered and / or being disrespected. That’s a very, very bad look in most situations. Given the fact that misgendering is being looked at as a form of legal harrasment, that’s likely to get you in trouble in many situations, not jsut in customer facing roles. But, in customer facing roles that could get you fired stat.

  57. Louise D*

    I suspect the force of “Bloody” and “Bloody Hell” may depend upon age and social class. They are certainly not expressions I would have been allowed to get away with using as a child (British, Middle Class, 1970s). I’d say they were mild but a bit stronger than “Damn” and “Oh my God”.

    That said, I would be very surprised to hear someone use them in a workplace that was “very decorous” or from someone seeking to make a good first impression on me. I wouldn’t be offended, but I would probably assume the person using them was seeking to present a persona that was more informal and not strictly professional. I would certainly suggest one should be careful about using them in front of British clients, particularly if those clients are over the age of 40.

    1. LilyPearl*

      Yes, this. My mum didn’t tolerate us saying bloody or bloody hell when we were kids (80s/90s). In a casual office, fine. I’d be taken aback if my accountant​ / solicitor / dentist came out with it.

  58. Katie the Fed*

    #2 – I had a manager who did this exact same thing! She just could not get on board with my employer’s jeans days (which was a fundraiser for the Combined Federal Campaign). It created such awkward situations – she wouldn’t just say outright that she didn’t support it, but she would absolutely make comments.

    I agree about asking him, but I don’t know that it’ll help much.

  59. Ruth (UK)*

    5. I am from and in the UK and can tell you that ‘bloody hell’ is absolutely a swear! It’s above ‘bloody’ used as an intensifier on its own which is at least on par with ‘shit’ but below the f-word. I use ‘bloody’ in my every day language but have been specifically told off for using it on two separate occasions at work when it has slipped out (two different jobs in fact so I’ve never been a repeat offender at any one job yet). I currently have a list of exclamations on a post it for me to look at when I am frustrated and want to exclaim… It includes things like good grief, for crying out loud, what on earth… Etc.

    I have an American mother and have therefore ended up knowing a lot of Americans over the years and discussing language use to some extent. It’s been interesting to find they often use bloody as a go to marker or British speech but the way they are using it doesn’t seen to suggest they realise it is a swear word!

  60. Rabbit*

    OP 5 – While I’m not British, I would not find “bloody” or “bloody hell” to be appropriate to use in a work place that does not have a culture that is “very decorous”.

    I was partly raised by my Grandmother and as a result had to come up with creative curses that felt satisfying to say but were in no way shape or form offensive – as a result I still frequently find myself saying “God Bless America!” in extremely aggravated and annoyed tones. I also was fond of “Mother Hubbard”, “Rassinfrassin”, and “Oh, nuts!”

    I also say “Gosh” a lot with no trace of irony. :P

    1. Rabbit*

      I meant that I wouldn’t use bloody in a workplace that DOES have a culture of “very decorous” behavior.

      (Oh gosh, this is why I shouldn’t comment at 1 am. Bedtime for me!)

  61. Allie*

    For number 3 – I have a friend who is transgender and very much presents as one gender, and is not out to everyone, especially at work, because there is still quite a significant stigma, particularly in the region he lives in. It was extremely important to him that we use the correct pronouns and name, and those of us who had known him before the transition were asked to be particularly careful, especially around newer people that he might not be out to. While it’s nice that you’re non-binary, my friend very much is not, and went through a lot of difficult experiences related to people denying his gender. Your questions are particularly uncomfortable for someone who has transitioned too and it’s just not okay. In some cases, it could make someone like my friend feel unsafe and could endanger him.

    Don’t impose your experiences and comfort level with outness on others. You want to be identified openly as non-binary, some people want just as badly and have fought very hard to be very clearly binary. And even for those of us who haven’t fought for our gender identity but are cis binary, it’s a bit weird.

  62. that guy*

    #5 The comments on this range from “I’m from the UK and ‘bloody hell’ is as bad as ‘f*ck'”, to “I’m from and UK and it’s about as offensive as ‘fiddlesticks’.”

    So… we’re still not closer to an answer. Interesting

    1. EleanoraUK*

      You get all of the points for reminding me of ‘fiddlesticks’. I’m going to try to sub that in and dial down my work profanity a touch. The added bonus will be that it’s likely to make me giggle and snap out of whatever’s got me frustrated enough to swear.

      (Happily, I work at an incredibly laid back place and no one cares, but I figure it can’t hurt.)

    2. London Calling*

      I use ‘fiddlesticks’ in a mildly annoyed tone and EVERYONE knows what I really mean. Especially if I say ‘Oh…..fiddlesticks,’ with a tiny pause before the word.

    3. Ruth (UK)*

      I think it might be that language varies a great deal across Britain. I’m writing from Norfolk, a largely rural county. I would say attitudes to what counts as a swear is potentially more conservative here. Bloody is most definitely a swear word in the jobs I have worked in but might not be the case elsewhere. If you go up north, cock is a term of endearment

        1. GingerHR*

          Just ‘cock’ – used e.g. ‘Alright cock?’. ‘Duck’ is an occasional alternative.

  63. GingerHR*

    Very late to these comments, but ‘bloody hell’ in Britain is very location / office specific. Everywhere I’ve worked (bar one) it’s been very common. Where I am now it’s akin to ‘blimey’ – it’s more for emphasis than swearing. If people want to swear, they go stronger. And that’s absolutely fine in the culture we’re in.

    1. OP5 Writer*

      An American encountering someone from England would most likely not know those nuances. Would a Brit traveling to the U.S. be forgiving of an American who used inappropriate language?

  64. AlwhoisthatAl*

    #5
    I am also from the UK and would say that “bloody hell” is mild swearing at the absolute most. If you look at various etymological sites it can be summed up by “Public use continued to be seen as controversial until the 1960s, but since the later 20th century, the word has become a comparatively mild expletive.”

    So if you work with the kind of people who object to mild expletives it could be an issue but certainly no-one I know in the UK would be offended.

  65. Daria Grace*

    #5 Don’t know about UK English, but in Australian English, bloody hell is only vaguely offensive. I wouldn’t use it in a job interview or formal meeting but otherwise it’s not a huge deal. I would suggest not using it much though because overuse risks you looking a bit informal and kinda bogan (Bogan means something similar to chav or redneck)

    1. EleanoraUK*

      I misread your comment and snorted tea out my nose. I thought you said you wouldn’t use it in a formal greeting, and immediately pictured walking up to someone going, “Bloody hell, hi!”

      1. Daria Grace*

        Not the usual way to greet someone but I can imagine a conversation actually starting here that way if someone was really surprised to see someone else

        1. EleanoraUK*

          Haha yes, it could happen, and when it does, I’ll no doubt think back to this thread.

    2. London Calling*

      Yeah, but, Australians. The country where ‘how you doin’, you Pommie b**t**d’ is an affectionate greeting.

    3. OP5 Writer*

      I think our workplace communication style is closer to Job Interview than to redneck.

  66. AlwhoisthatAl*

    Incidentally “Hell” as a word used by Christians only came into use with the King James version of the Bible ( 1611 ), it’s actually an Anglo-Saxon word meaning “That which is hidden”. The correct term for “Hell” is Gehenna, which is a small valley in Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom.

    So saying “Bloody as in covered with blood, Anglo Saxon word substituted in 1611 for Gehenna” will be the correct way to say “Bloody Hell ” in a non-offensive way.

    1. bloo*

      Many translators do take the liberty of rendering Gehenna as hell, however a number of modern translations transliterated the word from the Greek ge’en•na

      Gehenna is the Greek name for the Valley of Hinnom. The traditional view by rabbinic and other sources is that the Valley of Hinnom was for disposal of wastes. Jesus associated Gehenna with fire. All scriptural references appear to associate this term with everlasting destruction.
      The word hell, in contrast, is the common grave of dead mankind. *Not a place of eternal destruction*. In Hebrew it’s she’ohl’ and in Greek it’s hai’des.
      In my bible studies, hell and Gehenna are *not* the same thing or remotely interchangeable and is an important distinction taught at my place of worship.

      (End tangent)

      But I’d probably laugh anyway. …

  67. Bagpuss*

    In relation to OP#3, one point I don’t *think* has been made already is that OP seems to be confusing general and specific use of gender neutral terms.
    I think it is generally a good thing to try to move towards gender neutral terms when you are speaking or writing *generally* (for instance, I am currently in the process of updating my firm’s office manual and policies, and am taking the opportunity to get rid of any remaining he/she and his/her constructions and using they or their instead, but when speaking to or about an *individual*, as opposed to people in general, it is polite and appropriate to use the person’s preferred form of address.

  68. paul*

    I picked up “bloody” from Buffy the Vampire slayer as a kid; I don’t know that I’d consider it pretentious :) As far as how offensive it is in the UK, I have zero idea. Do you have people from the UK actually working at that location?

    Different words can be differently loaded in different cultures and I think that’s fine; I wouldn’t treat it as offensive *here* just because it’s offensive elsewhere. Now if he’s actually interacting with British folks that’d be something to keep in mind I guess

  69. AlwhoisthatAl*

    Ooooh me again.
    Just to relate a story about when I worked on the Oil Rigs in the North Sea. My colleague was ex- Public School with the plummiest of BBC accents.

    So one of the Roughnecks bursts into the geology lab and says in a broad scottish accent “See yon f****r, the f*****g f****rs f*****g well f****d ! ” pointing broadly to our board of instruments.

    Thomas looks enquiringly at the board then at the roughneck and politely enquires “Oh and which f*****g f****r would that be ?”

  70. Allie*

    For OP4 – In some cases a temporary manager position can be really tough, especially if you’re newer, because it’s a little harder to get co-workers to follow your lead, especially if you were hired after them and the position is temporary. For that reason, being turned down for a temporary position may not mean you’d be turned down for a permanent one. So I wouldn’t necessarily take it too personally and definitely reach out to your manager for career development.

  71. Jen Erik*

    ‘Bloody hell’ was my mum’s pushed-to-the-limit expression. She’s in her eighties now. My take on it would be that it’s changed over time – that to her generation it would be inappropriate, but to a younger generation, probably not – I don’t know that I’ve ever heard a young person use the expression, so I can’t imagine what they’d make of it.

    There may be geographic differences that would explain different takes on this – I remember a UK discussion about the use of ‘twat’ in Jacqueline Wilson’s book – where I live, not offensive at all, in other areas, properly offensive. (Also class differences, maybe – I don’t know where I heard this, but supposedly the middle-classes are least likely to swear, so perhaps more likely to be offended?)

  72. MW*

    Trying to address OP#3’s intent because I think ze is starting with good intentions… Your rationale seems to be that by referring to everyone with nonbinary pronouns you are affirming the identities of any closeted nonbinaries who may be in the office, without impacting the gender identities of the binary people in your office. There’s something laudable there and I get that it would have been a big improvement in your life if people referred to you using nonbinary pronouns before you were out. In theory, it’s validating for the closeted non-binaries and has no impact on the binaries, win win!

    But, in the first place, there’s the clear potential that it does, in fact, have an impact on binary people. Whether you’re cis or trans, a lot of people like affirmation of their gender identity, and a refusal to affirm it is hurtful. And while I am more worried about denying the identity of a trans person, I think the potential for hurt is still there with cisgender people too. I’m not even comfortable saying that *all* closeted nonbinaries would be happy with this approach.

    In this case someone has made it very clear that they don’t appreciate the pronouns you’re using and want you to use gendered pronouns on them. My general rule of thumb when it comes to identity is accept whatever someone earnestly tells you at face value and act accordingly. If this woman says she’s female, cis, and nonbinary and would prefer to be referred to as “she”, I think you should do just that, the same way others accept you at face value when you tell them you’re nonbinary and want to be called “ze”. I don’t think you’re losing anything by gendering someone who wants to be gendered, someone else’s identity should not impact your own.

    Just out of curiosity, how would you respond if someone else in the office requested that you refer to them using singular “they”? Would you acquiesce?

  73. Not Alison*

    I do not want to be called cisgendered, I do not want to be called straight. Just because you wanted to be called transgendered, nonbinary, gay, lesbian, etc, (and I am happy to call you what you want) please do not put a label on me if I don’t want it.

    1. NewHerePleaseBeNice*

      Absolutely this. A label given to oneself is fine. A label forced on you by others is not. I personally bristle at being labelled ‘cis’, and I also find it annoying to be called ‘Ms’ (when as a married woman I prefer Mrs). I would be very upset if someone took it upon themselves to pronoun me as Xe or Mx or They without my permission.

    2. Alton*

      Labeling other people without taking their feelings into account is wrong, and if you sincerely don’t identify with the meanings of “straight” and “cisgender,” then I absolutely respect that. And I’m not going to interrogate you on it. But sometimes people get defensive because they’re used to their identity being the default, and they don’t see why there needs to be a “special” word for what they’ve taken for granted as being “normal.” If that may be part of your objection, please consider that only labeling minority identities but not majority ones can sometimes increase a perception of otherness or abnormality that can be harmful.

      2. Sylvia*

        +1

        If “straight” and “cis” aren’t your identity, I won’t use them for you. If you’re straight and cis and want those things to be unspoken because you insist they are too “normal” to even have words for them…

          1. fposte*

            It’s not that “normal” is offensive; it’s that assuming only one experience is “normal” is a problem.

      3. MW*

        I couldn’t agree more. I feel we’re veering off topic here, but I must voice my agreement with this statement.

      5. meat lord*

        + 1.

        We need these words–straight, cisgender, and so on–because without them, there’s nothing to call heterosexual, cisgender people but “normal.” Which then makes LGBTQ people “abnormal” by contrast, and that just adds fuel to the hostility against us.

      6. Nic*

        THIS. In my situation it’s not even related to gender, but does involve something where people tend to call me out as “other” from the majority. It hurts, and for a long time every time I asked that certain language be used or not used I was told that what they were doing was really to help me, and I’m perceiving it incorrectly. It took a full out meltdown before some of those who were doing this to understand how important it was to me.

        It doesn’t matter how lovely your intentions. If someone has made a request that you do/stop doing X because it makes them feel uncomfortable, please do so. It only takes an instant of effort, and can mean an immense amount.

    3. animaniactoo*

      While I understand that such terms are “newer”, cis is in many ways a defining word prefix that equates sort of along the lines of “homo sapiens” or “male” or “female” (by physical birth characteristics). I’m curious to know what your objection to it is? Or to straight for that matter?

      1. MagsM*

        While I don’t know about the previous posters issue with being called cis, I do feel like this is an odd way to put it… Er, if you came up to me and started referring to me as a Homo sapiens in general discussion that would be really bizarre

          1. fposte*

            I questioned your comment too, and it’s mostly because I don’t think cis has achieved the taxonomical authority that the others have yet, though it would like to; it’s still mostly a discursive use.

            1. animaniactoo*

              It may be where I’m reading (not tumblr or reddit), but I’ve been seeing it become more and more widely used, so maybe it’s something that’s approaching a threshold?

    4. Gadget Hackwrench*

      The problem with this, is that it relegates people in the minority to “the labeled” and everyone else as “normal” or “default” which really isn’t fair. It’s not that people WANT to be called gay, or transgender it’s that they ARE gay or transgender, and it’s not fair for only the minority group to have a word that describes them. It would be like saying “don’t call me white, just because you want to be called (insert minority race here.)”

    5. Allie*

      I think I understand what you’re getting at. Sometimes people want to put people into little boxes, whereas the vast majority of people live on a continuum. So trying to put people into categories of cis/trans/non-binary can be an oversimplication of reality. And also, it’s not really anyone else’s business anyway, unless the person in general chooses to share it.

      1. Anonymous 40*

        Beyond that, I think there are people who genuinely just think of themselves as “me,” who maybe haven’t had the struggles with identity that others have. They may fit the generally accepted definitions of a category but don’t identify with it because it’s a term chosen for them by someone else. I think it’s a fine balance to feel that way while still being completely respectful of others’ identities, but I don’t think it’s impossible.

    6. Temperance*

      Okay, this is not the same thing as LW3 is doing. Straight and cis aren’t bad or wrong or whatever. It’s like male or female. Descriptors.

    7. Anonymous 40*

      I think I understand what you’re saying. If the standard is that each person gets to choose their adjectives and pronouns, that standard should apply to everyone?

    8. a different Vicki*

      What do you want to be called, then? If you prefer “heterosexual” to “straight,” I’m fine with that, but would it bother you if an LGBT person you knew said “I’m glad my straight friends support me in this”?

      I like the word “cis” mostly because it’s shorter than “non-trans*,” and a little bit because I’m the kind of geek who likes where the usage came from. I like having a word because it’s a step away from the assumption that trans* people are weird and the unlabeled cis majority is “normal.”

    9. Not Alison*

      What do you want to be called, then? If you prefer “heterosexual” to “straight,” I’m fine with that, but would it bother you if an LGBT person you knew said “I’m glad my straight friends support me in this”?

      I prefer “heterosexual” for myself. I’m fine with an LGBT person using the word “straight” and I’m fine with a person who wants to refer to themselves as “straight”. Don’t know where “cis” came from, it’s a made-up word that someone else is making up for me, I guess I would prefer “non-transgendered” or “birth-gendered” would also be fine.

      1. animaniactoo*

        fwiw, cis is not a made up word and as a definition specifically aligns to birth-gendered. The prefix root (as with so many of our words) is of Latin derivation and means “on this side” and has been used to compare to the root for trans which defines as “on the other side”. In the way that many of our words are derived, this is essentially using an existing prefix on a word that it hasn’t previously been combined with, in order to address/define a new understanding or situation.

        1. fposte*

          It’s absolutely a made-up application for the term, though, because it really hasn’t been a common conversational prefix in the way “trans” has been. Which doesn’t mean it’s invalid or unusable, but it does make a difference to how people respond to it.

          1. animaniactoo*

            I don’t really agree with that as “made-up”, in large part because then all of our language is “made-up” until it gets to the point that it’s accepted (i.e. the first usage(s) of “trans” when applied to transgender or transsexual). I don’t like pushing/accepting that connotation in areas where there are solid bases rooted in our current language and it is more an evolution, an expansion set if you will of our current language. Not some sort of outlier being forced into it that has no natural tie-in but will later become commonly accepted.

            1. fposte*

              Sure, all language is made up. Language that’s made up with the deliberate intent of propagation and change always has a tougher row to hoe, though, and the characteristics of that linguistic unit will affect its success as well; I’m actually okay with “cis,” but since it’s most common usage pre its use here is “cisalpine,” it didn’t come with an easy connotation that would help people pick it up.

              I think we’re talking about areas where we need good language and I support the effort, but some of the current favorites could have been designed better if dissemination was the goal.

              1. animaniactoo*

                Mainly, my point is that there’s a connotation to “made-up word” that is different from “language is made up (of sounds that we have commonly agreed mean x, y, or z, and structures we have agreed give context, etc.)”.

                So when something follows the rules of language as we currently have them but is a new application, I don’t see that as a “made-up word” vs “a pre-existing word that nobody bothered to define and use before” in concept. I think this is even more true when you’re essentially defining a scientific occurrence and therefore working to define in scientific language which tends to be Latin-root based when it comes to those kinds of definitions or names.

                Out of curiosity, what do you think would be better designs of some of the current favorites?

                1. fposte*

                  I don’t disagree with you that “made up” is generally used as a pejorative. But I think it’s trying to articulate a difference that does matter to success.

                  I was thinking about whether there’d be terms that would higher chance of adaptability. The problem is that the reasons why these particular forms have been mooted have significant roots as well that can be really important to people thus identifying, so I feel weird throwing out “branding” type suggestions. I do think “Mx.” has a high chance of success because it follows existing models closely enough that people shouldn’t find it hard to extrapolate.

              2. DArcy*

                No, the most common use pre its use here is “cis” and “trans” isomers in organic chemistry, which is taught all the way down to the high school level. Isomerism is exactly why “cis” is reasonably well known as the opposite term from “trans”, which is the basis on which “cisgender” was coined.

                1. fposte*

                  It really wasn’t “reasonably well known,” though, and organic chemistry is not a subject that most Americans encounter, let alone in high school.

      2. Themiscyra*

        There is an alternative construction to cisgender which can actually apply to both trans and non-trans people, and it’s close to “birth-gendered”: assigned [gender] at birth, usually abbreviated as AFAB (assigned female at birth) or AMAB (assigned male at birth). So a non-trans person might be referred to as an AFAB woman, for example. It recognizes that binary gender is not an inherently objective truth but something imposed upon us by (generally) medical authorities, which is an issue for binary trans people, non-binary trans people, and intersex people. It avoids some of the value judgments implied in saying ‘I was born female’ or ‘I’m a natural woman’ or ‘I’m a normal woman’ or what have you. I find it rather awkward (and wouldn’t want to be referred to by my gender history) but it gets the point across.

        But I really think you should take into account that these labels a lot of us are throwing around — trans, gay, lesbian, etc. — are not necessarily the labels we would have chosen either. We have embraced them as convenient shorthand, in many cases, but it’s not necessarily how we identify, deep down. While I will say I’m a trans woman in making points, the important part of that construction, to me, is that I’m a woman. I expect that’s true of you as well.

        Categories like heterosexual and cisgender let us refer to what we once called ‘straight’ or ‘normal’ without the value judgments implied in those terms. It doesn’t have to be an important part of your identity. It doesn’t have to be part of your introduction to others. But we all fall into categories we didn’t choose for ourselves, and this is a way of expressing that on a level playing field. I don’t strongly identify as white, but I do fall into that category and recognize the privilege connected to it. I’m not going to go around telling people I’m not white and they shouldn’t say I am, even if I would generally focus on the nationality of my ancestors when describing my family background.

        You should also know — though I don’t think this is your intent — that many trans people take a dim view of knee-jerk “I’m not cis!” reactions, as it’s become associated with certain opponents of our community with a habit of outing, trolling and harassing trans people. For many of us, it’s become a sort of Pavlovian signal that more naked bigotry is about to follow. It’s unfair that anyone who doesn’t subscribe to such bigotry has to tread carefully, but this is the world we live in.

    10. Indoor Cat*

      I don’t want to be called cis because I’m not, but I *look* cis, more or less, and I’m not sure I’m comfortable being out as genderqueer or agender. But I really hate it when people say, “You have cis privilege” etc, when I don’t, but I also don’t want to out myself when I’m not 100% sure what my gender even is.

      I think a lot of people feel this way, even if it is something they can’t articulate. I think often times when people bristle at the declaration by others, “you are this,” it’s because, well, they’re not. They may not be sure what they actually are, and they may not be sure what all the options are. They definitely do not know enough to argue why that isn’t their lived experience.

      To me, it is very akin to people who are attracted to multiple genders of people who use a label other than bisexual. I’ve heard “pansexual,” “straight / gay with an exception,” “kinsey 2” “biromantic asexual” “sexuality anarchist” and, truly, unironically, “whatever.” According to a dictionary’s definition, all of these labels are similar enough to be synonyms, and since bisexual is the most well-known, why not use it for everyone? The answer to that, to me, is that the dictionary isn’t what defines your heart–only you can do that.

      Yet I have heard many LGBT people argue vehemently against these other labels, trying to force someone into the “bi” label against their will (or the “straight” label, if the person has only dated opposite-sexed people). To me, none of the arguments in this vein hold a candle to the harm done by trying to force someone to accept an identity they truly are not, or are not ready yet to settle on.

      tl;dr — just accept anyone’s identity when it comes to their gender and orientation. Please take people at their word that they know themselves best, even if they are not “there” yet introspectively.

    11. Forgot my name!*

      +1000000000000 I hate labels. I would be very upset if I was suddenly given one.

  74. Bits and Bobs*

    #5

    I’m in the UK, and wouldn’t consider “bloody hell” to be offensive or that strong a swear word, but it is context-dependent. I wouldn’t use it in an interview or a formal meeting, but in my (rather casual) office, it’s completely unremarkable.

    In the course of my work, I often have to work with people who are Sir So-and-So or Lord Thing of Some Place, and whilst I wouldn’t swear in front of them (or anyone else who works with us in a similar capacity), they often swear very liberally – especially the lords!

    1. OP5 Writer*

      In some American offices all kinds of words are allowed! In ours, we stick to G-rated language.

  75. Bloody Banker*

    Op #5, this reminds me of a rhyme my mum used to say

    ‘Bloody in the Bible, bloody in the book and if you don’t believe me, take a bloody look!’

    I would say bloody hell is pretty low key in the UK, but definitely depends on your work environment and geographical location. I lived in the North and you wouldn’t even blink an eyelid at it

    1. AlwhoisthatAl*

      I must remember that rhyme, that’s excellent. Just educating my 11 year olds about swearing and that’s great.

  76. Rio C*

    #3 I don’t want to seem insensitive about this, but is it possible that other people in your office aren’t comfortable with your use of gender-neutral pronouns but only one person has come forward about which pronouns she prefers to be used when in reference to herself? It’s great that you’ve found an inclusive workplace that accepts you but I’d imagine that there’s gotta be at least a few other people who prefer specific binary pronouns for themselves who haven’t said anything yet. I certainly wouldn’t know how to respond in this scenario, where a non-binary person uses the same gender-neutral pronouns with everyone, and my initial reaction would be to get used to it.

    Hate piling on, but also have to point out that respect is a 2-way street. You’ve made it clear that your coworker is being respectful and conscious about what pronouns you prefer, but you’re openly disrespecting her by continuing to use different pronouns than what she has informed you that she prefers to be referred with. Her being cisgendered doesn’t mean she’s any less entitled to her preferred pronoun than if she were transgender or non-binary. Ultimately, she’s a person, much like you’re a person, so you should treat her with the same level of respect that she’s currently giving you. “I’m not comfortable with the fact that she wants to be referred with she/her” is really not a mindset anyone should have, whether it’s a binary person towards a non-binary person, or vice versa.

    1. Observer*

      I’d go further. I’m willing to bet that there is more than one person who is uncomfortable.

      Which leads to another thing – the fact that this one person is willing to speak out when no one else is indicates that there is probably some history there. Whether she’s trans and doesn’t want to say so, she’s been bullied, been subject to problems because of her gender or any other reason is not relevant. And asking is not appropriate. But it’s worth bearing in mind.

  77. Rebecca*

    #1 – Alison’s advice is spot on, and to expand on her advice, this is something I’ve done. At my job, I work with various people and groups, and I have various processes and steps depending on which customer we’re working with, the type of product, and there are a lot of variables. So periodically I reach out at the end of a phone call, typically, and ask “is there anything I’m doing that I shouldn’t be doing, or doing differently, or is there anything I’m not doing that I need to do?” All the teams I work with know they can tell me that we can eliminate step Y between X and Z, or that we need a new step for ACME Anvils because a requirement changed, no problems, and I’ll update as needed. I think an informal approach should give you the feedback you’re looking for without the formality of an online survey.

  78. DanaScully*

    Re #5: I’m English and I would err on the side of caution with, “Bloody hell”. My MIL is a very straight-laced lady who doesn’t like swearing, and I wouldn’t say it in her presence. In fact, MIL would say, “Blinking eggs!” instead.

  79. MuseumChick*

    OP 3, I think you are being pretty unreasonable about this. YOU (and many others) prefer non-gender pronouns. This person has been clear with you that they prefer a specific gender pronoun. Is it really such a hardship to use them with one person? I think if you go to HR with this it won’t have the result you want, rather I think it will just cause them to raise an eyebrow in your direction.

    You don’t get to dictate what pronouns people want used. I don’t think you have any ill intent here, just maybe some tunnel vision. If this person were transgender and asked you to use female pronouns would you? I get the sense (and I could be wrong) is that you would. So why are you opposed to using requested pronouns for a cisgender person?

    1. Temperance*

      I would be extremely annoyed if someone forced non binary pronouns on me. Deciding that you don’t need to respect my gender identity means that I’m not respecting yours.

      1. MuseumChick*

        I was thinking about this, if someone I worked with used non-gender pronouns for everyone. I think, after the first couple times, I would ask they used female pronouns for me (cisgender woman), it’s accurate and what I’m used to. But I would not at all begrudge that person for defaulting to non-gendered nouns. Once someone has declared “I am (insert label)” it’s generally the most respectful thing to do to use the term they are comfortable.

        Unless they want you to call their partner “Master”…..

  80. Lalaland*

    #3: wow, I’ve read about this kind of thing on Tumblr, never thought I’d come across one in real life. I didn’t even know there were official terms for this.

    I’m actually kind of impressed this person went to all that trouble to adjust their word use, I mean saying ‘him’ or ‘her’ comes so naturally that if I was asked to refer to something by a different pronoun I’d have some trouble adjusting to incorporate it into every day conversation. But as others have said, it’s quite inappropriate to use them for people who don’t want to be, kind of like giving them a nickname that you think is perfectly harmless but they object to.

    1. Lag Maggie*

      I don’t think calling someone by the correct pronoun should be considered “trouble” or like you’re doing a huge favor for them. It should just be expected, the way you’d expect someone to call you by the correct name if you changed it after a marriage or divorce.

      1. Lalaland*

        Whether or not it’s expected or common courtesy, it takes getting used to. To take the effort where it wasn’t required in the first place is unusual.

        1. The Other Dawn*

          I agree, Lalaland. It takes getting used to. Growing up, I never heard anything other than he/she, etc. I’d never heard of the pronouns OP3 mentioned and had to look them up. If someone told me they prefer something other than he or she, it would take me some time for me to adjust and remember not to use he or she. It doesn’t mean I’m inconsiderate or disagree with their usage. It’s a habit that I’d have to change.

        2. Worker B*

          I agree, Lalaland. I’ve had several friends come out as various genders and ask us to adjust our pronouns for them accordingly. I’m always happy to oblige but it took some getting used to. A friend I hadn’t seen in a while came out on social media as gender neutral with they pronouns. It was easy to switch when we were talking online but I didn’t realize how difficult it would be in person. We spent a weekend together and I kept defaulting to the previous pronoun. I would immediately curse and correct myself and apologize profusely and they completely understood that it took time to get used to it. Now it’s second nature.

          I have no problem with being corrected as long as others are understanding that I am trying to be respectful and may mess up every now and then.

        3. Sylvia*

          So, it sounds like you haven’t run into this in real life? I have several times. Learning the right pronoun for someone takes as much effort as correcting yourself when you find out you’ve accidentally called someone by the wrong name. It’s not really a strenuous undertaking.

          1. SarahTheEntwife*

            It probably depends on how good you are with remembering names. It takes a lot of effort for me to mentally switch pronouns, just like it does for names. It’s important, worthwhile effort, but still effort. (I tend to have lots of conversations about them with my pets or furniture, so that I can get acclimated faster and make mistakes where it won’t hurt anyone.)

          2. JKP*

            For some people, it can be a strenuous undertaking. Personally, I’ve found it very, very difficult to change a name or word choice. I had a friend who I knew for years by their nickname. Then when we were coworkers, they expressed a preference for their full name at work. It seriously took me a YEAR of daily corrections before I FINALLY got in the habit of calling him by the new (to me) name. After I finally got it consistently right, he expressed disappointment that I no longer called him by his nickname outside of work. I absolutely refused, because I was INCAPABLE of switching back and forth. Calling him by his nickname again would mean that I would end up calling him that at work too.

            For me, word choice is like driving on auto-pilot, like driving all the way to work when you really meant to drive somewhere else. I may have the best of intentions of honoring someone’s requests, but the words come out of my mouth on autopilot. Part of that may be that my job requires a skillset of tuning out your own voice so that you can focus on another task while simultaneously talking. So I may even *think* I called them the right name/pronoun until it’s pointed out that I didn’t.

            I have had no problem calling the trans people I’ve met by their preferred name/pronouns if that’s how I was initially introduced to them. But once I have a habit for someone’s name and pronoun, it will take me awhile to change that habit. And to learn completely new pronouns that I’ve never encountered before, almost like a foreign language, that feels really daunting to me. So please be patient with people like me who take longer than most to change their language.

      2. Observer*

        Sure. But many people also have trouble with the name change. Of course, reasonable people just DO it, and the same holds true for pronoun use. But let’s be realistic and realize that it is an adjustment. Note, I’m not calling it an imposition.

    2. Alton*

      Well, for those of us who don’t fit into the gender binary, it’s not always as much of an adjustment since we may be used to thinking of ourselves in non-binary terms.

      And yes, we’ve existed for quite a while and have had words for who we are for a while.

  81. VioletEMT*

    #5 is giving me flashbacks to my first work trip to Denmark. I was chatting with clients in their work area as, and their conversation with me was peppered with “f—” and “s—“. I was concerned that they were really upset with our product (the topic of conversation), until a colleague who has lived there for a decade explained that those are pretty minor swears for Danish, on the level of “damn” and “crap” in the US. I shared my initial confusion with the clients, telling them I’d thought they were really, really angry. We had a good laugh about it.

    1. OP5 Writer*

      We don’t even say “damn” or probably not “crap” here. We’re very strait-laced.

  82. Lynn Marie*

    OP3, I think others have explained beautifully and specifically why your attitude in this situation is misguided. I just want to add that this is not the way to go about changing hearts and minds.

    1. OP5 Writer*

      It definitely seems bullying to me “I get to dictate language around here” vs. “I’d like to be referred to as [whatever] please. Thank you.”

  83. Beth*

    OP 3…this “either you’re with me or against me” mentality is not going to work very well in the long run.

  84. AnonForThis*

    My two cents here, and I’m sure I’m not woke or whatever the term the kids use is. But with all the options around, I’m pretty sure I’ll inadvertently use the wrong term at some point. So if it’s outside the usual Miss/Mrs/Ms/Mr/military rank/Dr, I’m probably going to going to use firstname+lastname or no pronouns to try to ensure I don’t get it completely wrong.
    At some point, presumably the terms will trickle into everyday use, but for now, they’re not necessarily within formal business norms. That makes questions about gender even more inappropriate for workplace conversations.

  85. Kirsty*

    Where I’m from in England, bloody hell is considered a more lenient swear word. Its often that you wont say it in front of children or allow them to say it but if I heard another adult say it I’d be totally unfazed :) I’d however not say it at the workplace but I personally don’t verbally use any swears at work, in my head however is a different story!

    1. OP5 Writer*

      Our workplace is a no-swear zone, so “bloody” as a substitute for an American word seems not to be the best choice. There are other words we can use.

  86. animaniactoo*

    OP#3 – As with the Dr/Mr/Ms/Mrs issue, a term is fine until someone tells you what they prefer to be called, at which point that is the only appropriate thing.

    I understand your desire to make the world safe – but the best way you can do that is by showing others that what they ask for will be respected. Full stop. No further debate or argument.

    I did this with my children – I knew that heteronormativity was an issue for kids as they struggled with sexual preference in families who were just fine and friendly but that the default assumption of heteronormativity tends to make it harder for kids who are bi/gay (and now pan/a) to declare a sexual preference. So I made sure to make a point that I didn’t expect that they would automatically end up with girls as partners and I reinforced that simply by saying “girl or guy” everytime we talked about potential for future with partners, even in those joking moments of “You’ll make some girl or guy a great… someday”.

    Eventually they got annoyed at me and asked me why I did it, I explained that it was simply because they hadn’t declared yet and I didn’t want to make an assumption, I wanted to be as clear as possible that whatever their preference was would be accepted. At which point, they declared and I went with their declarations… right up until one of them told me differently 2 years later. At which point I switched easily to the newly declared preference. He wasn’t even ready to be comfortable with leaving the assumption open until then! Which is the whole point of telling this story here… I created the safest environment I could, and he still wasn’t comfortable in it without being “out” yet. Likewise, your insistence on your preference over their preference is not the safest place you can make the world. The safest place you can make it is by giving the instant acceptance that says whatever is asked for or declared will be accepted without question.

      1. animaniactoo*

        Thank you. I was lucky enough to have ended up informed about this even though I was not part of or near to the community. Of course, the more you know… I did still end up assuming they’d want a partner to begin with, which I now know is not necessarily true either… (fortunately both of them do seem to want partners even if only one has really formed partnerships!)

  87. Temperance*

    L2: do you have any friends at Corporate? I might casually mention this to them, if so.

    Getting to wear jeans to work is a nice morale boost. Knowing that you’re allowed but your boss is a wang about it has to be frustrating.

  88. PepperVL*

    For everyone referring to #3 – it’s cisgender and transgender not cisgendered and transgendered. The -ed suffix implies it’s something that happened to them, not something that they are.

    Think yellow paper vs. yellowed paper. Yellow paper is paper that was produced with yellow dies in the pulp and has always been yellow. Yellowed paper is paper that was another color and due to age, exposure to elements, etc. has changed colors to be more yellow.

    (And now that I’ve written it a bunch, I realize yellow is such a weird word.)

  89. Robin*

    OP #3:

    I am nonbinary and taking HRT, and I am out, and I use neutral pronouns (and adjectives, as I speak a heavily gendered language) at work. I have told people to use my pronouns/adjectives, and they’re mostly happy to cooperate. They are not my preferred pronouns: they are an accurate reflection of my gender.

    Your coworker has been telling you multiple times to STOP MISGENDERING HER. We can get into a whole lot of gender theory here, but the bottom line is that YOU are refusing to use HER correct pronouns. Your reasons for doing this in general may come from a good place, but consistently refusing to recognize that this woman has said, over and over again, “I am a woman and you need to use she/her pronouns for me” – that’s not good.

    I use neutral pronouns because they make me feel comfortable. I would not insist on using neutral pronouns for a person I didn’t know, even if I knew they were trans, because those might not be their preferred pronouns. And as a trans person, you should be more cognizant of the fact that navigating gender identity is difficult; navigating it in public can be exponentially harder and can be dangerous if you don’t pass.

    If you’re talking about someone you don’t know, it’s fine to use GN pronouns, but if someone has flat out told you that they are X gender or use X pronouns, TRUST THEM. Leave this woman alone and stop being so nosy. The exact details of someone else’s gender are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. What this woman is probably hearing from you is “You’re not a real woman.” That is not a nice thing to hear if you identify as a woman, ever.

    You obviously have a workplace friendly enough to trans people that management doesn’t object to you using neutral pronouns for yourself. Please make sure to keep the workplace safe for any trans people coming after you. I wouldn’t feel safe if a coworker constantly interrogated me about my “real” gender, whether they were cis or trans. Be respectful.

    I’m honestly aghast that any trans person would miss the brutal reality of what it’s like being trans in public, and this may be unkind, but I’m reading this letter as coming from either a teenager or a troll.

    1. Gazebo Slayer (formerly I'm a Little Teapot)*

      There are “alt-right” trolls who post stuff somewhat along these lines in an attempt to mock trans, nonbinary, and gender-nonconforming people or “social justice warriors,” but if OP3 is a troll they’re an unusually subtle troll. Usually troll posts in this genre have a long string of identities (often used incorrectly), a whole bunch of buzzwords and catchphrases (also often used incorrectly), and a tone of aggressively illogical outrage. My money is on young, naive, and overly self-righteous. Or possibly, as various others have suggested, gender abolitionist.

      (I’ve been in the queer community online for several years, and I’d never even heard of gender abolitionists until today somehow, but I grasped the meaning fast. Sort of like a cousin to TERFs – though I’m sure both communities would find that comparison objectionable!)

      *TERF = Trans Exclusive Radical Feminist, for those who don’t know. They’re vocally transphobic – occasionally actually advocating murder of trans people – and often harass trans people, and tend to call themselves “gender critical” or some such.

      1. DArcy*

        OP 3’s insistence on using nonbinary pronouns for everyone and claiming that their coworker’s preference for traditional pronouns for herself is unacceptable is more consistent with gender abolitionist ideology than alt-right or radical feminist.

        This is also supported by OP 3’s overt lack of respect for anyone else’s pronoun preferences and tacit lack of empathy for trans and nonbinary people who aren’t comfortable being out at work. In this context, gender abolitionists are similar to political lesbians in having a basis of ideological affiliation rather than personal identity; as such, they really don’t have a personal understanding of how harmful misgendering really is.

  90. TotesMaGoats*

    OP#2-While I think it’s ridiculous to not let you wear jeans everyday, I don’t think you are going to get much of anywhere with your manager. You might get your way but your manager might also make your life a living hell short of firing you. I don’t get the jeans=less professional especially in the retail sense. Sure, dirty, torn, baggy, is not my personal choice but as long as you ring me up properly, find me the petite size in the back and give me the coupon that I don’t actually have, I’m cool with whatever you wear. I bought a new mattress last summer and all the salespeople were in suits. It was about 900 degrees outside and the men had to get the double mattress in the back of my truck. All I could think was that I wouldn’t think less of you doing this if you were in dress shorts and a polo. The pools of sweat were actually unprofessional.

    OP#3-Ditto basically everyone who said that the appropriate thing to do is call people by what they tell you they prefer and use neutral terms when in doubt.

    OP#5-I find this discussion fascinating. Word origins are a fun thing for me to learn. I personally love “frack” as my go to not quite a cuss word. Thank you Battlestar Galactica. From sci fi and fantasy, I also like “shards”, “shells” (Anne McCaffrey) and when I’m really feeling it “Hell’s Fire, Mother Night and May the Darkness be Merciful” (Anne Bishop, Black Jewels series). Since I have a 3 year old, we use “oh bother” a lot. It’s especially adorable when he uses it.

    1. Parenthetically*

      I absolutely adore conversations about swearing. I’m a bit of an etymology nerd and once spent a good part of a class tracing the origins of the f-word back to Ancient Greek with a room full of high school students. It’s just such a fun way to get into cultural and subcultural taboos.

      “Frack” is a good non-swear. I mentioned above that “Blast!” is my go-to non-expletive when I’m at school.

      1. Marillenbaum*

        Frack for the win! Side note: if you like etymology and language, I highly recommend checking out The Allusionist–it’s a podcast by Helen Zaltzman all about words and language.

    2. Nic*

      I’m a huge fan of stealing profanity from fantasy novels. The Wheel of Time even has some really fun ones like “Sheep swallow and bloody buttered onions!”

      In the general discussion of profanity, I was astounded once teaching in a small North Louisiana town when my class absolutely flipped out because I said the word “lie”. “Fib” and “untruth” were okay, but apparently their “mama would slap me to next Tuesday” if they used “lie.”

  91. Worker B*

    OP #3, I appreciate that you’re using gender-neutral pronouns for people you don’t know but this person has specifically told you she is a ‘she’. So why are you ignoring her request? It’s no different than if someone who knew you were gender neutral referred to you otherwise and refused to address you as such when you corrected them. I don’t understand why it makes you uncomfortable to refer to someone correctly when they have addressed the situation with you.

  92. boop the first*

    #2: “I don’t think this is worth making a huge deal over,”

    Well… yeah, because such a small concession doesn’t mean anything to other people. This is an industry where yes, it’s normal for managers to behave this way. It’s also “normal” for customers to throw things at you and even stick knives into you (or maybe that’s just the city I live in, ha). It’s normal to not have a wage increase in a decade and to pay for your own dental work. Christmas is such an ironic holiday considering how awful everyone behaves.

    The reasoning for this one is pretty weird though. I’m guessing the manager just doesn’t like wearing jeans, but also doesn’t want to be sticking out as the only one NOT wearing jeans. Or maybe the concession doesn’t apply to managers. Can anyone get a copy of the memo? That way everyone can come in with jeans and just whip out the memo whenever friction comes up. Manager already seems bashful enough about it to let it go.

    1. Anon today...and tomorrow*

      Agreed. I worked in retail for a lot of years and I felt similarly to the “I don’t think this is worth making a huge deal over”.

      Retail is a field that gets very little respect. The staff at these establishments are often underpaid and aren’t offered many perks. That employee discount? Yeah…most people don’t work in stores where they even like what they’re selling. I worked in store that sold leather coats (how many does one person need, really?), in another that sold skate/surf brands (geared mostly toward thin teen boys and girls and I was a pregnant 30 year old), and in a entertainment themed store (how many novelty mugs/shirts/pens does one person need with a picture of a cartoon character on it?) There are seldom company sponsored events where every store gets a perk. And the holiday shopping season? Awful. There is little to no flexibility during this season in regards to what your shift will be, for every wonderful person you encounter you find three others that are truly awful to you, your workload suddenly explodes, and yeah…if wearing jeans is the little bright spot on the season that one person squashes for a larger group then, yeah, it’s a huge deal.

      LW, for myself – I’d be making a call to the DM at the start of the holiday season and asking for clarification on the rules. Based on your description of the event and how there’s a home office, multiple stores, and a DM I’m pretty confident that this is nation-wide chain. If that’s the case, then your store manager isn’t likely to have any real power to suspend a company wide contest unless you worked in a store that was in a high end area (NYC comes to mind). Loop in your DM, let him know that morale has taken a hit with the suspension of the jeans incentive over the last few years and that you’d like to know if there’s anything he can do to insure that your store will be able to wear jeans during the event. Explain it how you’ve done here…that this is a rough season, that you like your job but jeans DO make it a bit easier. He might help you!

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        Based on your description of the event and how there’s a home office, multiple stores, and a DM I’m pretty confident that this is nation-wide chain. If that’s the case, then your store manager isn’t likely to have any real power to suspend a company wide contest

        This, this, a thousand times this. My husband has worked for two different national retail chains and there is no way in heck a store manager could get away with this. This is why the manager is trying to obfuscate the contest/directive rather than just saying “we’re not doing this.”

    2. Sal*

      I actually agree with you that it is worth making a big deal about (to the extent that getting clarification about the actual applicability of the contest to the OP and colleagues is “making a big deal”). This is a perk of OP’s employment, and OP doesn’t have many perks in December. Worth pushing back.

      (And I’ve never worked retail. I’m just petty-minded, I guess.)

    3. Lynn Whitehat*

      Yeah, “worth it” is in the eye of the beholder. It sounds like a small bright spot in an otherwise-miserable season. If retail jobs aren’t too hard to get in the OP’s area, that would definitely tip it over into “worth pushing back on”.

  93. Anon today...and tomorrow*

    #2 – my sympathies! Jeans are awesome! I worked at a company that allowed jeans on Fridays only except for the month of December. In that situation, we could make a small donation to wear jeans. $2 if you paid day of, $8 if you paid by the week, or $25 if you paid for the whole month. Most of the team paid the $25. One December some big wigs from our home office flew in and they insisted on no jeans while they were in town. They were in town for 10 days!!! To say there was a stink raised about the fact that they took our money and then took away our jeans would be an understatement. It got pretty ugly. Nobody wanted to give. They didn’t want to extend the event into the next month, they didn’t want to give us our money back, and they didn’t want us to wear jeans. Eventually it went up the path to HR and we were able to wear jeans for 10 days into the new year, but our boss complained every one of those 10 days.

    Can you loop in your DM? If it’s supposed to be a fun, morale boosting event then your store manager is doing the exact opposite. Your DM might want to know that this is going on.

    1. MashaKasha*

      I wonder how many people gave the $25 the following year.

      One of the CEOs at OldJob (the company went through something like four of them in my six years there… the CEOs kept getting fired for some reason) one day randomly banned jeans company-wide. It was a manufacturing company and a lot of the people could reasonably expect a call at any time telling them to drive out to a plant and get out on the shop floor, so in addition to everyone keeping a pair of steel-toed boots in their desk drawer, most people also wore jeans most of the time (because that’s safer to wear on the floor than a skirt or dress pants) and the management looked the other way. Not this guy. He walked into a breakroom one day on a Thursday and saw someone in there wearing jeans and he just lost it. He sent out a company-wide email that said “Jeans are only appropriate when you’re getting on or off a horse… Until the day I see horses at Company, jeans are banned.” The next day after he got fired a year later, everyone wore jeans to work. There was no advance talk about wearing jeans, I guess everyone just happened to have the same idea at the same time when they got the news.

      1. Anon today...and tomorrow*

        Surprisingly we all got on board the following year and paid our $25. :) I think knowing that HR had our backs for the previous year gave us faith that it wouldn’t happen again. It didn’t. Jeans are awesome. I get to wear them every day where I currently work.

        BTW…that is HYSTERICAL that everyone came to work in jeans the day after he got fired. LOL! Jeans are appropriate for every day…not just horse riding. I had a middle school teacher who hated that kids wore jeans. He used to called them dungarees and would literally go off on tangents about once a week about how dungarees were ruining the country.

  94. HM*

    I think OP3 has a really interesting question. I have a close friend who is cis and a very butch lesbian, and she constantly gets misgendered. Sometimes it’s by weirdos who try to kick her out of the girl’s bathroom, but very often it’s nonbinary or trans people who repeatedly call her they/them or he/him. Maybe it’s coming from a good place, but assuming that she can’t be a woman because she doesn’t embrace femininity is offensive; there are many different kinds of women. I know OP calls everyone by nonbinary pronouns, but this is just to point out that there are cases where misgendering a cis woman can be very harmful.

    1. Alton*

      That’s a really tricky thing because a lot of times, you have nothing to go on but someone’s gender presentation, and deliberately ignoring someone’s presentation and assuming that someone must be female because you can tell that they were assigned female at birth is also disrespectful. Ideally, it’s nice if people feel comfortable asking others what pronouns they use or correcting people who get it wrong, but that’s not always easy.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      This is where I was for a good long time. When I was dealing with homophobia from some of my family, a hell of a lot of it was centered around “being a lesbian = being less of a woman.” (Actual words my stepmother said to me: “Well, all of these hormone problems and too much testosterone, I bet it’d all go away if you stopped letting the internet tell you you’re gay.”) I am not trans, but my relationship with my own gender identity is still hard-fought and precious to me.

    3. Parenthetically*

      Seriously! I have a former student and an aunt who are both cis and straight but have very short hair, wear men’s clothing and shoes, generally feel very uncomfortable with “feminine” things. Either conform to gender stereotypes or be misgendered? Not great options.

  95. Falling Diphthong*

    Re #5, my understanding is that “bloody” is eyebrow-raising-in-a-decorous-setting by Brit standards. Because it’s not a normal US cuss word, though, it gets through the censors and so got substituted in when writers wanted to give something a slightly risque sound. Accidentally misleading the Americans as to how strongly they were cursing.

    Sort of like “zounds” used to be quite filthy as it means “God’s wounds” but because no one understands that it usually lands as “drat.”

    1. OP5 Writer*

      “Merde” or “Scheiss” or “Puta” would be off-limits. English & American people technically speak the same language, but not really!

      1. Anonymous 40*

        Ironically, cursing may be the one area in which Americans are multilingual. I understand those words and wouldn’t use them in a polite setting, even though I don’t speak French, German, or Spanish.

  97. Allison*

    #2 Your manager probably can choose not to let the store participate in the jeans thing, but he has to be clear on that. Either he announces it, or he stops being difficult in an effort to discourage them or hide the corporate policy from employees.

    That said, if he does choose to override the policy for the store, that’s going to be a huge hit to morale and may warrant a conversation with the higher-ups, who may want full compliance. If he really hates the idea of employees wearing jeans on Fridays, maybe he needs to find a company that doesn’t believe in that.

    I don’t even understand what the big deal is, anyway. Sure, ripped, saggy, faded jeans aren’t great for customer facing jobs, but there’s a wide range of jeans! If a pair of jeans is in good condition (fits well, no holes, not faded) to me they’re just a small step down from khakis and slacks. And holiday shopping is so stressful, I highly doubt anyone really would notice if employees are wearing nice jeans or slacks, they have more important things to worry about than what people’s pants are made of!

    1. Kathleen Adams*

      Some bosses dislike jeans because they simply dislike having to make a judgment call. What I mean is that “No jeans” is easy and fairly clear-cut, whereas if you get into the “Jeans are OK, but they have to be *nice* jeans,” that gets a little fuzzier, and many a manager dislikes even a hint of fuzziness in a rule.

      That said, I think it’s dumb to make one branch follow different rules than other branches, and also getting to wear jeans from time to time is – I’m not ashamed to say it – awesome. Yes, the boss does have the right to say “You can’t do that here,” but that doesn’t make it the right thing to do. My organization allows us to wear jeans most Fridays, and the rare Fridays when I can’t (e.g., the board of directors is meeting that day or I have a meeting), it’s mildly astonishing to me how much I miss getting to wear jeans.

      1. Allison*

        I’ve never really liked jeans, I’m more of a skirts n dresses kinda gal (although I recently found some high waisted slacks I really like!), but if a workplace allows them, it usually tells me some good things about their values, provided they don’t use “wooo jeans!” to distract people from garbage pay and benefits.

        I guess I get the judgment call thing, but if there are some clear-cut rules, pictures of what acceptable jeans look like, and a note about how managers may generally err on the side of caution when deciding if jeans are acceptable or not, I don’t see an issue. It’s a bit like skirt length.

        1. Kathleen Adams*

          It’s only an issue, IMO, if the manager shrinks from exercising any judgement. And I have had managers like that (and in fact, I have a grandmanager who’s a bit like that now, although even he is OK with jeans on Friday). If you’re the kind of manager who won’t let an employee who went to a company meeting the night before and didn’t get home until midnight come in late because “If I do that for you, I’ll have to decide if the next person who asks this deserves it or not”…well, you’re probably the kind of manager who won’t want to say “Allison’s jeans are fine but Kathleen’s are not.”

  98. SEAS*

    Seriously, #3?

    You want people to respect your pronouns (and they should!), but you won’t respect someone else’s?

    I don’t think you get this pronoun thing. It’s about respecting what pronouns someone is comfortable with, not forcing neutral pronouns on everybody because maybe you’re referring to them by the wrong pronouns.

    The most polite thing to do is ask. That lets people know that you’re safe to come out to. If they still don’t feel safe coming out to you, then that’s life and hopefully they eventually become comfortable in asking to be called their preferred pronouns. Otherwise you’re being extremely rude by not respecting the pronoun preferences of cis people. I get that cis people are privileged group here and I don’t think misgendering them is oppression, but it’s still rude.

    1. Temperance*

      They also don’t know if everyone that they work with is cis, which I think is the bigger issue. For lots of very valid reason, many trans folks are stealth. So they are both misgendering people, which can be extremely rude and harmful, but also potentially outing folks who prefer not to be outed.

      I think they mean well, and are trying to foster a sense of community and acceptance, but are doing the opposite.

  99. bohtie*

    Hey #3, other people have said smart things here but I just wanted to chime in as a fellow nonbinary person.

    I see where your heart is on this, but the execution is not quite right. The logic of “I’m going to use gender-neutral pronouns in case someone is NB but not out yet” is flawed because even if you were correct, you are (and I cannot emphasize this enough) outing them without their consent. It’s kinda like how when I was younger, Gay-Straight Alliances were a big thing – yes, it was partly about allyship, but it was also about making a space for closeted LGBTQ folks to go to that didn’t require them to disclose if they didn’t want to or weren’t ready.

    Don’t ask people if they’re trans. Don’t ask people if they’re trans. Yes, I’m saying it twice. That can literally get someone killed, and I’m not being melodramatic – as I’m sure you’re well aware, trans people are at incredible risk for discrimination and violence, and that includes many instances in which people are merely *suspected* of being trans. Plus you have no idea if they’re okay being identified as, say, “a trans woman” vs “a woman” – plenty of binary trans people in particular work very hard to live stealth.

    With that said, there are other ways you can approach this that are much less risky and more respectful in appearance. I regularly refer to people using the singular “they” (usually by accident, to be honest – I’m nonbinary, and my significant other AND roommate are both trans and we all use gender-neutral pronouns so I just say it all the time and the habit is built), which has never raised an eyebrow even in the VERY conservative corporate environment I work in, whereas ze/hir/xe/many of the other options can pretty much derail an entire conversation into Gender Theory 101. (With that said, if that’s what someone prefers, that’s another matter entirely, but I personally do not know a single nonbinary person who isn’t cool with “they,” even if it’s in addition to/an alternative to another pronoun.)

    Honorifics are tricky, but I would stay away from Mx. unless you specifically know the person prefers it – anecdotally, I know next to zero nonbinary people who use Mx and in fact many of us prefer to just avoid honorifics at all costs. (I’m AFAB and I would honestly rather be called Mr. than Mx. because of the specifics of my identity, but my #1 choice is just to be called by my name!)

    I said don’t ask people if they’re trans, but asking people what pronouns they use *can*, in some environments, be a great habit to start – heck, a lot of my cis friends have gotten on this lately as part of their allyship to make stating and asking for pronouns to be a normative activity. But make sure you lead by example first – just barging in and demanding someone’s pronouns can come across as kinda transphobic depending on the circumstances. (For example, if you’re in a roomful of people and one of them is a trans woman, and that woman is the only person you ask for pronouns, the subtext is “You don’t pass enough for me to consider you a ‘real’ woman.”) Ask everybody or ask nobody, and always start with your own.

    1. GreyjoyGardens*

      I think honorifics are becoming obsolete in general – except for gender-neutral occupation-specific ones like “Dr.” and “Your Honor,” etc. Expecting to be called “Honorific + Lastname” makes one sound like an aristocrat from Downton Abbey putting the servants in their place. I think people should just call one another by their (preferred) first, or middle, name.

  100. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    OP3, I know you probably mean well, but just use the pronouns that people tell you to use. And even where someone is nonbinary, you might use the wrong pronoun, and Zie/hir etc. are very new and will get you seen as “weird” for using them, rightly or wrongly.

    I’m a butch, somewhat NB lesbian- ideally, I would have top surgery, but not hormones or genital change, and I prefer androgynous dress. Blazers/pantsuits or t-shirt and jeans all the way!

    For me, it’s okay to use female or neutral pronouns- but not ze/hir, because I don’t want to stand out by using new, invented pronouns, and also because I grew up speaking German. Ze/hir pronouns sound a lot like common German words, which makes their use confusing for me. Finally, I guess I’m just a grammar stickler from years of spelling bees, proofreading papers for others, and copy editing the entire campus paper through college, so I don’t use new or changing language until it’s widely accepted and/or mainstream media uses it.

    So I definitely would insist on “she or they, please.” I wouldn’t be insisting at you. This would be like me refusing to refer to coworkers’ partners with gender-specific terms even after they insist, in case someone is closeted.

    1. Czhorat*

      <>

      I respect your choice, but “invented pronouns” is a phrase which always irks me. All pronouns – and, for that matter, all language – is invented. There’s no pronoun-mine where we dig them from the earth, or pronoun-tree on which they grow in the wild.

      1. Temperance*

        While that’s technically true, there is a vast difference between using pronouns and terminology that have existed for years in wide use, and that have been accepted by the NYT, APA, or MLA, and new words that are more commonly used on tumblr. If someone wants to be called “xe”, that’s fine, but don’t use that word for me and I probably won’t use it at work.

        1. Taylor Swift*

          I love following Merriam Webster on Twitter because they so frequently point out people complaining about “new” uses of language that are actually hundreds of years old. So my point is, things may be new to you but that doesn’t mean they actually are new.

      2. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        I know- I just meant “recently conceived of,” or “new,” not necessarily knocking them.

      3. Teclatrans*

        But language shifts generally do grow in the wild, and zie, hir, etc. were definitely invented as a competing system of pronouns. We are now in the messy process of seeing which will get incorporated as a linguistic shift, and which will remain as markers of a distinct cultural grouping or a specific historical era.

        All of which is to say, I don’t think calling this invented language is incorrect or inherently disparaging.

        1. fposte*

          Agreed! Nice summary. Some inventions get picked up and some don’t. That’s culture for you.

    2. Maxwell Edison*

      I’m an editor, and I haven’t encountered a request for gender-neutral pronouns yet. I’m sure I will at some point. I’m interested to see if/when the pronouns make it into Merriam-Webster or Chicago Manual of Style, as those are what I have to use as my guides most of the time. I’ve never seen these pronouns up until reading OP3’s letter, and I’m intrigued as to how they are used (I honestly might have thought “hir” was a typo).

  101. Falling Diphthong*

    Re 3, this is a sincere question: Have we settled on the Official Gender Neutral Pronouns? Last I knew there were a bunch of variations, so you just find out which ones someone likes and use those. I’ve never heard ‘mx’ and it seems a really ungainly pronoun.

    1. Bits and Bobs*

      Mx is, to my understanding, a title rather than a pronoun. It’s meant to replace Mr/Ms/Mrs with a gender neutral alternative. It’s gaining some traction, at least here in the UK, with companies allowing it as an official title:

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/nov/17/rbs-bank-that-likes-to-say-mx

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/gender-neutral-honorific-mx-to-be-included-in-the-oxford-english-dictionary-alongside-mr-ms-and-mrs-10222287.html

      https://www.localgov.co.uk/Council-to-adopt-gender-neutral-title-on-forms/41456

      I know one person who uses Mx as their title, and a prominent journalist/food writer, Jack Munroe, identifies as non-binary and uses Mx.

    2. Czhorat*

      I think “mx” is the gender-neutral equivalent of “Mr” or “Ms”.

      There’s no “official” anything; language doesn’t come with a governing body making formal pronouncements.

      FWIW Dictionary.com lists “ze” as a gender-neutral singular third person pronoun, while Merriam-Webster does not.

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        ” language doesn’t come with a governing body making formal pronouncements. ”

        It does if the language is French.

        In fact, in looking up what theirs is officially called, I was led to a Wiki page of “language regulators” English is one of the few languages that doesn’t have one, actually. I’ll follow with the link to the Wiki page.

        2. Czhorat*

          Interesting, but not entirely relevant. Such bodies have no real authority over how language is used and evolves over time, and which words from other language are borrowed into ones tongue.

          For example, some googling says that the “official” French word for cupcake is “petit gateau”, while actual French people say “cupcake”.

          1. Sam*

            “Interesting, but not entirely relevant.”

            Not relevant to this initial statement?

            “language doesn’t come with a governing body making formal pronouncements.”

            Whether or not everyone strictly adheres to widely agreed upon linguistic standards is irrelevant, the point is contrary to what you said there are regulatory bodies whose sole purpose is to establish official standards for a certain language, and those standards tend to become the de facto rule of that language. You were proven wrong. Accept it instead of trying to shift the goalposts.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Official in this context means one widely understood answer, like we all know what “to google” is even if a different search engine is used. Or “bi” is understood to mean bisexual and not bigamist or bilateral or bipolar or binary or bionic or bifocaled or any of the other possible words it might have replaced.

    3. meat lord*

      I don’t think there’s anything “official,” but I know more nonbinary people (both in real life and online) than the average bear, and 80% of them use they/them/their. The folks I know who want more unusual pronouns have been pretty much forced to offer “they” as a second choice.

  102. Anon today...and tomorrow*

    #5 – when I was a kid my dad was dating an English woman. I was 8 and an American who had never left her country. We went out to dinner one summer night and when I got into the backseat the leather seat was scorching hot. I screamed out “Oh, that’s bloody hot!” My dad laughed but his date looked at me in shock and then asked my dad if he normally let me curse like that. I liked her, wanted her to like my dad so I stammered “I meant it’s hot as blood…coming out of human body…not like the swear word.” I don’t think I did the good job of covering it up as I thought I did because she stopped coming around soon after. But…that was the day that I learned that Bloody was a swear word to some people.

    Also…as I sit here reliving this memory I am embarrassed for myself. “Coming out of the human body?” It’s amazing I wasn’t ushered right into a therapists office right away.

  103. Jessesgirl72*

    OP3: You claim that you want those who may be trans or non-binary to feel safe with you if they aren’t yet out.

    Your actions are guaranteed to do the opposite of that. You assumed someone was trans, and then asked? Oh, OP!

    If I didn’t want to be outed, I’d stay as far from you as I possibly could! I’d live in constant fear that you were going to out me against my will!

    I get that you are so happy to be able to to be your true self, and are looking to connect with others like you. That’s great, and I hope you find your “place.” But please allow people to have their own self too- and in the workplace, most people are just trying to work!

  104. Allison*

    #3 Gender pronouns are awesome, but not everyone’s on board with getting rid of gendered pronouns for everyone! Default to them if you wish, even if someone presents pretty clearly as one gender or the other, but if someone says they prefer male or female pronouns, you should respect that, regardless of the reason. Some people are old fashioned, but I’d also imagine some trans people really want to be referred to as the gender they identify as.

  105. Czhorat*

    For OP3, I’ll go slightly against the grain here: language is a personal and important part of ones self-expression. That the person who objects to non-gendered pronouns is also the person who seems to have an issue with your non-binary status raises an eyebrow for me and hints that there’s more to this conflict than meets the eye.

    I would probably counsel you to skirt the issue by using singular they or trying to avoid pronouns altogether when talking about the coworker in question. I can see forcing you to use gendered pronouns when you don’t believe in or accept the binary to be disrespectful; I also understand that if the co-worker DOES identify as part of the binary that they want their identity respected.

    1. Myrin*

      I think the problem with that is that of the two basic assumptions you seem to be starting from in your second sentence, one is demonstrably false and one we can’t say for sure but sounds likely to be false as well.

      “That the person who objects to non-gendered pronouns”: OP’s coworker does not in general object to non-gendered pronouns, she objects to others’ using non-gendered pronouns (or any other pronoun than “she”, really) when it comes to her. Big difference. I think gender-neutral pronouns are neat but I would 100% object to someone refering to me as anything other then “she”. OP also says outright that the coworker is respectful of hir chosen pronouns.

      “the person who seems to have an issue with your non-binary status”: It’s not at all clear that OP bases hir understanding of the coworker as “not being cool with the nb status” on anything other than the lone fact that she herself wants to be refered to as “she”. It might well be – maybe the coworker has talked nastily about OP behind hir back or has openly stated that she thinks non-binary people are only making it up or something like that – but one would think that there would actually be an example of this in the letter if that were the case. As it stands, the letter makes it sound like OP equates “I want to be called [any not-nonbinary pronoun]” with “I don’t respect your non-binary status”.

    2. Observer*

      The fact that the one person who wants to have her pronouns used is the one person that the OP thinks is not good does raise my eyebrows. Because it tells me that the OP’s judgement on the matter may be flawed. Unless there is something else going on with the coworker, this says more about the OP than the coworker. As others have pointed out, it sounds a lot like militant gender abolitionists.

      Pronouns are part of self expression. But self expression takes a back seat to basic respect for other people. Some people’s self expression includes using sexist, racist or other “ist” language. That’s not acceptable. Some people’s language includes lots of swearing and cursing. In many places that’s totally unacceptable. Why is this different?

      By the way, for a lot of people gender neutral / gender binary terms don’t work well with THEIR self expression. Yet you would never accept the argument that “self expression” is a good reason to refuse to use those terms. Why is this different?

      1. Jaguar*

        Yeah. The situations Czhorat maps exactly to the inverse position:

        “I can see forcing you to use non-gendered pronouns when you don’t believe in or accept the non-binary to be disrespectful; I also understand that if the co-worker DOES identify as part of the non-binary that they want their identity respected.”

  106. Stop That Goat*

    #3. Honestly, I’m pretty ignorant when it comes to a lot of the terms surrounding gender. That being said, I’ve taken a policy where if someone requests to be called something specific, then I’ll do it within reason. There’s no harm in respecting the wishes of other people when it comes to themselves. It seems like a pretty clear cut ‘golden rule’ situation. You don’t need to agree but you should respect their choice.

    2. Anonymous 40*

      I’m curious (and I genuinely mean curious) what your definition of “within reason” is in this context. I think my only exceptions would be for “reserved” names or inaccurate descriptions. I wouldn’t call anyone but my parents “Mom” or “Dad” because those names are specifically my Mom and my Dad and them alone. Similarly, if someone told me to call them Uncle Bob who isn’t actually my uncle, I’d ask for another alternative.

      1. Allison*

        (I know nothing of your personal life, so bear with me here)

        If you got engaged, and your fiancee’s mom wanted you to call her “mom,” is that not unreasonable? You can say you’re not comfortable with it, but that’s not unusual to want a future in-law to treat you like family.

        But if a guy you met at a bar wanted to be called Daddy, it’s reasonable to refuse, and walk away.

        2. Anonymous 40*

          I would react very carefully and respectfully to it, since it is such a common thing, but I would still refuse. Fortunately my in-laws have always been fine with me calling them by their first names. I wonder if the “Mom” and “Dad” thing is regional. I’m from Texas and live in a southern state and don’t know anybody who calls their in-laws by their spouse’s parental names for them. OTOH, my Dad married someone from Michigan, and that was the custom in their family. My father-in-law always called his mother-in-law Mrs. Lastname and still does in conversation. To me it’s not a matter of disrespecting in-laws but respecting my own parents. I know this hangup is probably unique to me and I’m relieved it’s never been a real issue in my life.

          1. Anon today...and tomorrow*

            No, the hang up is not unique to you. Shortly before my husband and I were to get married my MIL insisted that I call her and FIL “Mom and Dad” and that she wasn’t taking no for an answer. I told her that I was appreciative of the fact that she thought of me like a daughter I could not imagine myself calling anyone other than my own parents Mom or Dad and that I wouldn’t be calling them that or any version of. I explained that for me the names had serious meaning as I was abandoned by my father while still young and raised by a single mom. My MIL was offended and didn’t speak to me for several months. However…when she finally relented to talk to me again she answered to her name.

        3. Anonymous 40*

          Also, I call my father-in-law by his first name even though he and my stepdad have the same name and are usually in the same place at least a couple of times a year.

        4. Temperance*

          Eh, I see the second request as more reasonable than the first, and I’d frankly be more likely to call a weirdo at a bar “Daddy” than I would my husband’s awful father. I mean, FFS, my husband calls him by his first name, too. Same with the “mom” request.

      2. Stop That Goat*

        Well, my first thought was a previous column where an employee wanted her coworkers to call her boyfriend Master. I’m not calling anyone that unless it’s actually their name (and even then, I’d be uncomfortable). I’m thinking pretty inappropriate and outlandish things like wanting to be called by a slur, etc.

        1. Anonymous 40*

          Makes perfect sense, and I’d add that to what I said above. If someone introduced themselves to me with the name of a certain Huckleberry Finn character, I’d call them Jim no matter how sincere they were. I know that would never happen but your last sentence made me think of that example.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        My first thought when I read “within reason” was the letter about the coworker who wanted everyone to call her boyfriend her master. That’s something we mostly agreed wouldn’t be reasonable.

        If I were her coworker and she told me to call him Zanzibar Heptapod, then yeah, I’ll call him Zanzibar Heptapod if that’s what he goes by everywhere.

        1. Stop That Goat*

          Exactly! That master situation was the example that caused me to put “within reason”.

          I’d most definitely call her Zanzibar Heptapod if requested.

      4. Nic*

        As someone who prefers a nickname to my given name, I’ve tended to offer others the opportunity for that as well. Hence, I’ve had Shawty and Butter as students when I was teaching. Those two names requested by those two students for themselves? Sure, no issue. Had they asked for something that was obscene, -ist, or otherwise inappropriate for a classroom I’d have had to ask for something else.

    3. Allison*

      Well, the golden rule is treat others like you want to be treated. In that sense, OP is already doing that. I think it’s the platinum rule to treat others how they want to be treated.

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        But she isn’t. She’s not respecting the coworker’s wish to be able to choose her pronouns.

        Before the OP was out, they likely would have objected to someone assigning them a non-binary pronoun, or to now assign them one they don’t identify with.

        The golden rule here means you don’t get to make decisions for other people.

      2. Stop That Goat*

        Eh, we’re getting into semantics. I view the golden rule in this situation as respecting and using the pronouns that the person requested for themselves.

      3. seejay*

        The OP isn’t treating others how they want to be treated though… the OP is showing clear disrespect to their coworker. They might think that by using gender neutral pronouns for their coworker is “how they want to be treated in return” but the coworker has made it very clear that this is unwanted behaviour so now it’s crossed the line into disrespect. Nope, broken that golden rule then.

        The OP needs to drop the gender neutral pronouns as a habit in general, a lot of people in this entire post with experience have spoken up that this isn’t the best way to go about making a safe environment for the queer and transgender community. The OP’s heart is in the right place, but it’s misguided.

        1. DArcy*

          I actually don’t think the OP’s heart is in the right place at all. Their entire position is, “Everyone should go by nonbinary pronouns because I say so, and I’m upset that my team leader is undermining me by refusing to punish this one unenlightened person who insists that she identifies with conventional pronouns. How do I properly escalate over my team leader’s head to management or HR so they’ll force her to comply?”

          That isn’t misguided, that’s an aggressive and malicious pursuit of gender abolitionist politics.

          1. Sam*

            Seriously, why is everyone attributing good intent to the OP when it’s so obvious that they know full well what they’re doing and the kind of trouble they’re causing? If it were the other way around, I guarantee you that nobody, NOBODY here would assume the cisgender OP means well and doesn’t understand that their personal concept of gender shouldn’t be forced on others. They would be “cishet scum” among other pejoratives.

            Trans and NB people are no less capable of being bigoted a-holes. The OP is a fine example of this. If people are serious about according them equal treatment then they need to also hold them accountable for clearly malicious behavior the same way they call out cisgender folks for the same offenses instead of handling them with kid gloves and assuming they can’t possibly trying to start trouble on purpose because they’re minorities and oppressed people can’t be mean.

      4. Naruto*

        The OP wants people to use the OP’s pronouns of choice to refer to the OP. So, no, the OP is doing the opposite of the golden rule by refusing to use the coworker’s pronoun of choice to refer to her.

  107. Anon a Bonbon*

    #1 I’m in Performance Improvement and we handle many internal and external surveys. If you have a similar department, maybe Quality, you can talk to them about a survey. We don’t do surveys for individuals (super bad idea), but since your department is a service department, it may be time to run a survey to see how the whole team is performing.
    Writing a survey is tricky and it is very easy to unintentionally lead readers to certain answers, so it’s best to leave it to the pros. All our service departments have surveys each year to see where they can improve. Sometimes the comments aren’t that helpful, and if you send the survey at the wrong time, responses can be cynical. But often there are some gems in the rough that give you some guidance.

  108. CM*

    OP #4: I just wanted to point out that your manager’s offer of professional development is exactly what Alison says to do in response to letters asking, “I think this employee is great, but I had to turn them down for a promotion — how do I keep them motivated and let them know that I value them?” And a lot of commenters have said that they were really happy with the outcome of this — employees get a concrete assessment of the skills that they need to develop and a plan for developing them, and managers are assured that their high performers are happy and are becoming even more valuable as they develop their skills. I like the idea of an open-ended conversation like Alison suggested, but if there are specific training or professional development opportunities that you are interested in, this would also be the perfect time to bring them up.

  109. Grabapple McGee*

    There are some great responses here to OP#3. I am in awe of you posters!

    I still can’t get over asking a coworker if she was transgender. How does one even DO that? “Hey Pat…. got any good plans for the weekend? I’m thinking about going to a movie, maybe checking out that new vintage store on 1st Street. Oh and by the way, are you transgender?” O.o

    bloody hell.

    1. Temperance*

      FWIW, I have been asked if I am a lesbian and it wasn’t that weird, BUT it a.) wasn’t at work and b.) I do hang out with a lot of women who are bi or lesbians. It wasn’t putting me in danger to ask that question or potentially outing me.

      Outing a trans woman can actively put her in danger of both physical violence and losing her job. There aren’t any protections for trans folks on a federal level, so by outing someone, you’re potentially costing them their career, their home, and their sense of personal safety.

    2. Themiscyra*

      Once or twice, I’ve been asked very quietly if I was trans, but never for negative reasons — most notably, a coworker once asked me because she wanted recommendations for trans-friendly doctors for a friend of hers. And once I was asked by a customer while I was working at Macy’s over the holidays, which left me so stunned I simply confirmed it. It didn’t lead to any problems, fortunately, and the customer after her in line told me she was sorry I’d been asked that and said I should have said it was none of her business.

      It’s a question I’d certainly rather not get in a professional environment, under most circumstances. I don’t mind handing out advice to someone in need, but that’s probably the only exception I’d prefer to make. If someone’s asking in order to probe my identity and personal history…no. I told you I’m a woman, I told you what pronouns I want to use, that’s all you need to know.

  110. Elizabeth West*

    *sigh* I never seem to get here before there are a zillion posts.

    So here we go (have not read through yet).

    #1 Can I create my own performance survey and ask coworkers to fill it out?
    I think what Alison suggests is fine. and if I were going to do it, I’d go for informally in an email so they have time to consider it. But your manager should be giving you feedback so if she isn’t, I’d go to her and ask for some.

    #2 Manager is being weird about jeans
    If the company gives managers discretion in their own environment, you might be stuck with this. I’d clarify it as Alison suggests, though.

    #3 A coworker objects to my using gender-neutral pronouns to refer to her (and to everyone)
    Oh boy. Sorry, but yeah, I have to say something.

    Alison is right, OP. The correct thing to do is use the person’s preferred pronouns, not what you think they should be called. It makes no difference if they’re cis–the same respect is due all your coworkers.

    And frankly, I think you ARE focusing on your own discomfort, to the detriment of your relationship with your coworkers. You can’t insist that everybody conform to your own personal vision of the world. Please use the pronouns people want you to use.

    #4 How do I follow up on my manager’s offer of professional development?
    Oh yes, don’t let this drop! I doubt she would have brought it up if she weren’t sincere. It’s a good opportunity; make the most of it. Send her an email!

    #5 Saying “bloody hell” at work
    Bloody hell is not necessarily on par with c**t or tw*t, but it’s still pretty crude.

    Though I probably need to work on my sailor mouth, I think I’d be sick from all the sugar if I worked there, LOL.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I was out sick the last couple of days, open AAM to see what I missed, and was immediately bowled over by 2k (!) comments on that bird thing and close 1k on today’s morning post before noon CT. It looks like Alison’s having a busy week (month? year?).

  111. Fabulous*

    #3

    This whole gender identity thing has only come into the light recently. I don’t know enough about gender-neutral pronouns to use them with the non-binary friends I have. In fact, I didn’t even know gender-neutral pronouns even existed until last year actually. I still couldn’t tell you what they are — and I know you literally JUST used them in your letter too!

    In your co-worker’s place, I would probably have drawn offense too if someone called me something I didn’t know what it meant. And then be confused because I’m clearly a woman. And though I’m sure there are quite feminine non-binary people, it’s probably better to assume he/she until told otherwise, rather than default to a neutral pronoun that not everyone is familiar with.

    And also, you have your pronouns, she has hers.

    1. Not Karen*

      There are like 16,000 versions of gender-neutral pronouns floating around. Nobody can agree on what they are.

  112. Amber Rose*

    OP 1: I smiled a little because I remembered a TV show I watched once where the main character handed out surveys to everyone asking how likeable he was. I think if you were to do something like that and assuming the answers were totally honest, you’d get much the same kind of response: a variety of people will like some things, and then other people will dislike the things those first people liked, etc. Better to just ask for feedback directly, ie, “I’m open to feedback. Please let me know if you think there’s anything I can change about x.”

    OP 3: You’ve had a LOT of comments and this one will probably get lost but I just wanna say: as a cis woman, I like being a woman. I identify strongly as feminine and love being what I am. To have that diminished would be rather insulting to me, just as someone insisting on using he or she for you would diminish and insult what you identify as.

    To treat everyone the same is not the same thing as being fair. Fairness is treating everyone how they want to be treated.

    1. Temperance*

      I 100% agree with you on this. I’m a very proud and open feminist. I am a woman. I think womanhood is important and should be celebrated, and for someone to act like I’m not a woman, would suck and make me angry, TBH. I don’t even like dressing up in male-oriented costumes.

    2. AJ*

      I don’t “identify as feminine” but I am a woman because I’m an adult human female; I’m not “cis.” Not to get off topic, but as a feminist I’m alarmed by how the “gender spectrum is paramount, biology isn’t real” movement has turned into erasing females and particularly lesbians. To get back on topic, OP #3 is being very inappropriate.

      1. Amber Rose*

        You can be intolerant of other people if you like, but please don’t discuss it with me. I have no interest in hypocrisy either.

  113. The Wall of Creativity*

    #2 We’re in the 21st century now. The way to advance your career is to move jobs every couple of years, not to stay in one place and keep your head down. Wearing jeans doesn’t damage your career prospects – your next employer doesn’t give a rat’s ass (sorry OP#5) what you wore to work in a previous job.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      That seems kind of beside the point, though. OP#2 didn’t indicate they want to move jobs, they indicate they want to wear jeans to the job they do have during an otherwise crummy time of year.

  114. Manager-at-Large*

    OP #1 – a survey would be weird. However, if you have project work, a retrospective or hot-wash would be a normal thing to do. You can look these up and there are many ways to do them but basically you have a group discussion of the involved parties and look at: 1) what went well 2) what would we do differently next time 3) what were our lessons learned. That keeps the focus on the work and the behaviors/processes and off of the personalities.

  115. kNIght*

    OP #1 — I got an email this week from someone I worked with, like, two years ago, requesting feedback with a google form. The top had this message:
    “tl;dr Any feedback, positive or constructive, detailed or generic, professional or personal, from recent or long past interaction, would be very much appreciated.”
    I definitely thought it was a little odd, and I don’t remember our professional interactions well enough to give him any feedback, but it wasn’t a big deal. It bothered me that my manager didn’t gather more peer feedback for my last review, so I understand wanting more input from more people.

  116. DevAssist*

    OP #1- A survey would be weird, but you can definitely casually ask your coworkers for feedback!

    OP #3- What makes her “not cool” with you being non-binary?? Please respect her pronouns and don’t make assumptions about another person’s gender identity or sex. You probably mean well, but you’re projecting wayyyyyy too much!

    OP #4- Yes!!! Pursue the development opportunities your supervisor can offer you!

  117. Rebecca*

    #2 – as someone who shops in brick and mortar stores from time to time, here’s what I care about when encountering store employees:

    1. Are they readily recognizable as employees, like do they have a name tag, maybe the same color shirt, something?

    2. Can they help me if I need it?

    That’s pretty much it. I don’t care if they are wearing jeans, sweat pants, leggings, capri pants, khakis, black dress pants, skirts, or what type of clothing on the bottom half of their bodies, so long as they are wearing something. I can’t understand why this manager is being so weird about this, and seriously, crumpling memos up and hiding them behind a computer? Editing out things he doesn’t like? That’s just weird.

  118. Anxa*

    “I thought this person was transgender and I didn’t want to offend or upset if this was the case, but when I asked they said are not, they are cisgendered.”

    But even if, maybe even especially if they* were transgender, that isn’t non-binary and they may prefer binary terms.

    *I guess I’m being a little hypocritical, because even though the post is explicitly about the coworker preferring gendered pronouns, I immediately went to the gender-neutral pronoun they. I think perhaps the different is that they is the pronoun we use before we choose to explicitly remain gender neutral or to use a gender pronoun once the gender of our subject is revealed, and thus isn’t really the same of the ones used to address people more specificially. Plus, I think we tend to use ‘they’ as a less formal ‘one’ when we use one specific example with a specific person to start speaking more generally. It’s also a habit from not always picking up or following the genders of the people in the examples (sometimes the genders aren’t given). It’s also a much older term that’s ingrained more fully into our language, so I guess it’s a more neutral neutral?

    FWIW I know that I bristle at ze, hir, mx because they sound (read?) more abrasive to me? Perhaps a bit because I know they don’t have obvious pronunciations. That’s my own issue and it’s something that I’m sure will pass with time, and aesthetic aversions aren’t more important than inclusivity and just language.

  119. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    #1 – I think this would be something to talk to your boss about — she might have a suggestion to gather feedback, and might even be up for doing it herself. People are more likely to be honest with her about your performance than with you directly, for one thing. But I think your basic urge is a good one — when your work is spread out over a wide area, it can be tough to get good feedback!

    #2 – Your boss is being super weird here, but I’m not certain this is worth putting all that much time or energy into. Is there some reason why not wearing jeans would be a problem? Would it affect your ability to compete in the company sweater contest?

    1. Naruto*

      I suspect #2 just really enjoys getting to wear jeans to work for a change. I’m not that into jeans, personally, but I think the idea is that the OP is and just wants to get to enjoy this short-lived work perk.

      1. MegaMoose, Esq*

        Yeah, when I worked at a large coffee chain, we *LIVED* for jeans days, and I don’t even wear pants 90% of the time. Sometimes all you have is the little things…

    2. Mephyle*

      If I were in #2’s place, what would bother me is not the practical fact of not being able to wear jeans but the principle that (a) my manager chooses to override corporate policy for reasons of his own preferences or prejudices, not because of the good of the company or the employees, and (b) he implements this by hiding and censoring the notices from the corporate office.
      Does this not seem to be a big problem to anyone else?

      1. MarsJenkar*

        It’s your point b) that is my main issue with the situation. If the manager was upfront with their employees about their policy vs. corporate’s, fine; that at least makes the situation clear. But deliberately masking parts of the original corporate message? I see that as troubling behavior, and by itself that would be enough for me to seriously consider escalating to someone higher up–and I’m not even a jeans person!

      2. kb*

        Right? I feel like I, personally, would only be a little disappointed not to be able to wear jeans, but as soon as the manager started editing documentation on the sly, I’d care quite a lot. The poorly-executed sneakiness would put me in full-on investigative mode even if I preferred khakis, tbh.

  120. Retail HR Guy*

    Alright, after reading most of the comments I’ve got to out myself as someone who loathes being told I have to use these new pronouns like ze/hir/mx or whatever’s faddish this week. I’m okay with you identifying as male, female, or non-binary no matter what genitals or chromosomes you may or may not have. I’m okay with using male pronouns for males, female pronouns for females, and neutral language for non-binary genders (singular “they”, awkward as it is, or just defaulting a lot to the person’s name). I am okay if other people choose to use weird pronouns to describe themselves and others. Hell, I don’t even care if you refer to me using she, ze, it, or “hey you” though I might find it odd. But to be given a list of newfangled pronouns that I must memorize and use just for you seems like crossing the line from controlling your own identity into controlling other people’s vocabularies and ideologies.

    I live in a pretty liberal part of the country and consider myself pretty progressive. I’ve defended the LBGT community my whole life and voted accordingly. Yet I come to this part of the internet and all of a sudden it feels like I’m Glenn Beck.

    So…tell me why I shouldn’t find it eye-rolling to be told I have to use “ze” et al. I’m willing to listen.

    1. Amber Rose*

      I’d argue that it’s no more controlling of other people’s vocabulary than asking you to use a nickname instead of a given name or vice versa.

      That said, this is probably a better discussion for the Friday or Saturday open threads, since I know Alison is trying to crack down on off topic conversations.

    2. Winger*

      I am with Amber Rose on this – I totally get the cognitive dissonance this inspires, but it’s not that complicated to think about it the way you think about people’s names. We forget people’s names and nicknames all the time. It’s a little embarrassing but it’s life. The same can be true of people’s preferred pronouns. It is not too likely you know more than a small handful of people who don’t use standard pr0nouns; it’s not that big a deal to try to remember them, and it’s also not that big a deal to need to be reminded.

      What IS a big deal is to intentionally call someone by the wrong pronoun or absolve one’s self of having to pay attention to it. It’s equivalent to constantly calling your intern Melissa “Monica” and not giving it enough thought to even notice. Understandable if it happens a couple times and gets corrected, but when it’s over and over again, it marks a person pretty clearly as a jerk.

  121. The Final Pam*

    #3 yeah, I personally think gender-neutral pronouns should be more common and I honestly tend to use they/them for people more often than not (even though I use she/her pronouns), but once you know definitively that someone uses she/her pronouns it’s probably best to go with that. Although I do wish more workplaces (and places in general) had more avenues for indicating which pronouns you prefer and had more options available for non-binary / genderqueer folks. I recently had to fill out a work form that had you select gender and only having two options makes me rage a little. I think trying to encourage workplaces to make more steps to be more friendly to non-binary people is great, but, not to tone police, ignoring someone else’s preferred pronouns is only likely to make people unhappy.

  122. Naruto*

    One thing I didn’t see addressed above about #3 is that this is a work thing. And social rules at work are a little different than social rules in other places, like school, or with friends or family, or whatever.

    Because you’re at work, it doesn’t matter if the coworker is “against non-binary people” in terms of how she really feels or whatever. What matters is if the coworker treats you professionally and respectfully, and she is apparently doing that by using your preferred pronouns to refer to you. As a fellow employee, you owe her the same professionalism or respectful behavior.

    If she doesn’t like non-binary people on the inside, that sucks, but there’s a very real sense in which all that matters here is whether you both treat each other appropriately for work interactions.

  123. Saturnine*

    I hate to add more to this discussion, but as a non-binary person, I thought it would be worth chiming in on. I’ve always considered ze/hir/mx and other auxiliary pronouns to be non-binary pronouns, and not gender-neutral pronouns. What I mean by that is ze/hir are pronouns that someone can choose to have, but shouldn’t be assigned to others willy-nilly, much like she/her and he/him. They/them is more regularly used as a gender-neutral pronoun, but should not be used in excess when a person’s preferred pronouns are known. For instance, when I’m having a conversation with someone about a third person they don’t personally know, I’ll use they/them to refer to the third person, but if we’re both friends with the third person, I’ll switch to their preferred pronouns. Similarly, I will use they/them pronouns for someone until they or someone they are close to corrects me with their preferred pronouns, and at that point I’ll make the switch. It would be inappropriate for me to continue using gender-neutral pronouns once I know of their preferred, gendered pronouns.

    What I’ve said above isn’t any sort of hard rule, but rather how the LGBT community I’m a part of uses pronouns. I personally very rarely see any of my non-binary friends use ze/hir pronouns, so it always surprises me to see them in use in letters like these.

  124. Anna*

    To LW #2, and maybe someone who works in chain retail would know, but is it really okay for the manager in one store to make a dress code that is stricter than the corporate office puts out? The thing about chain retail is a consistent look and I would think that every store in the state wearing jeans and holiday sweaters EXCEPT store #911234 in That One City would not be cool.

    1. Temperance*

      So I worked in a shared office space chain, and our BigBoss (aka jerkboss) wanted a stricter dress code for us than required. She wanted skirted suits … for a gross job that involved loading the dishwasher, setting up catering, and moving heavy furniture, on occasion. I still hate that woman.

    2. kb*

      I think it depends on the chain/ how justifiable the additional strictness is. I worked in a flagship store in a nice area of town and the dress code there was stricter than it was nationally, but I believe that was at the behest of corporate, not the store manager.
      I think a lot of store managers get away with altering dress codes because they don’t actually tell anyone higher up and most employees don’t feel as if they are in a position to bring it to corporate’s attention.

  125. MommyMD*

    LW 3: please understand that you are also making this person uncomfortable. They may also choose to go to HR.

  126. aebhel*

    #1: I would find it a little odd, but I wouldn’t be put off by it, especially from someone in your role (ie, it’s not just a coworker asking for performance feedback, you’re asking for feedback specifically on aspects of your performance that affect their jobs, it sounds like). But I agree that probably informal conversations are going to get you more information.

    #2: Ugh, I sympathize. Your manager is being extremely weird about this, but it’s probably not the hill you want to die on.

    #3: Stop misgendering your coworker. That’s not okay, and it doesn’t become okay if the coworker in question is cis. That shouldn’t even be a consideration; you don’t need to ask people for very personal information like that in order to respect their gender identity (also: she may in fact be trans, and not comfortable being out about it at work. Either way, it’s not information you need. All you need to know are her preferred pronouns, and you already know them. Start using them.)

    #4: Definitely ask about it next time you meet with her! She wouldn’t have offered if she didn’t want to do it.

    #5: Not British, so I can’t comment on the relative offensiveness of the phrase in question, but I always find it a little off-putting when Americans adopt explicitly British turns of phrase like that; unless he actually lived in the U.K. for a long time, it’s unlikely that he picked it up naturally, and if your office is very straightlaced I’d err on the side of not using that particular phrase. Some people apparently find it very rude, and it’s usually a bad idea to use expletives from another culture, especially around people from that culture, if you don’t have a pretty good grasp of how they’re normally used outside of Harry Potter movies.

  127. Lokifan*

    #5 – “bloody hell” is DEFINITELY stronger than damn, but on average Brits are more okay than Americans with swearing, I’d say. I wouldn’t say “bloody hell” without feeling out the office culture. honestly though my main reaction to an American saying that would be to think it was a misguided attempt to sound British and a bit weird/comical. Not offensive though.

    #3 – gender-neutral pronouns can be misgendering depending on the context, and you said this person respects your pronouns; there’s really no indication they have a problem with your gender. Everyone deserves to have their pronouns respected, including cis people – and asking if someone’s trans, even if you’re trans yourself, is NOT okay. Don’t ask someone to out themselves, or about their medical history.

    1. Manager-at-Large*

      When I hear Americans using “bloody hell’ I usually think “too much Harry Potter” as I always hear it in my head in Ron Weasley’s voice :)

      1. OP5 Writer*

        The person I wrote about doesn’t have a British accent, has never lived in Britain, or even been out of the U.S. It seems like a strange word to pick up and I have to assume it’s from popular culture somewhere. If it’s an attempt to not-swear in a swear-word situation, then it’s maybe offensive to bystanders or customers or maybe not according to the posters here!

  128. Adlib*

    #2 – Ugh, so sorry. I’ve been in your shoes, and something like wearing jeans is a huge deal! If there’s a way to bring it up to your DM if Alison’s suggestion doesn’t work, that’s what I’d do. If you have a good relationship with them, that probably helps! Your manager IS being really weird about this. So bizarre, and I hope you get to wear jeans this year!

    1. anonymous user*

      I think one thing that has not (maybe) been pointed out is that OP #3’s behavior is textbook homophobic harassment, refusing to treat someone as a woman, questioning whether or not they are a woman, repeatedly pestering the person to acquiese to the idea that someone who looks that that cannot possibly be a woman are all experiences that gay and especially butch women have experienced and sued over.

      2. Sam*

        I really hope the coworker makes note of that and brings it up to the higher ups should OP be stupid enough to go to HR and play the victim over this or persist in their rudeness that their coworker ends up being the first to go to HR instead.

  130. That Marketing Chick*

    #3 I’m probably in the minority here, but I currently have no plan to use made-up pronouns unless someone specifically asks me to – and then only for them out of respect. I have no problem at all with what gender someone wants to identify as, but I find all the new made-up pronouns very distracting and unnecessary. Be who you are, but don’t expect people to cater to you or bend over backwards because of it. Treat everyone with the same level of respect regardless of size, height, color, gender, what they had for dinner, what dog breed they prefer, their political preference, whether they have a long middle toe, etc.

    1. Observer*

      Not such a minority.

      In any case, the key issue is that no one is objecting to calling the op what ze (is that the correct for he / she?) wants. All the other person is asking is to be called by her actual gender, rather than a non-binary gender which is not accurate.

      Whatever your views on these words, using them when specifically asked to, out of respect for the person who asked, is a reasonable position. And that’s true whether newly made up pronouns or ones that have been around pretty much since English has been a language.

    2. Jaguar*

      There is a distinction that I think splits down the middle of this issue that I think helps clarify the various components at play, which is freedom of expression versus compelled expression.

      Freedom of expression is pretty clear on this topic and I don’t think anyone objects to how people choose to express themselves through their words, clothes, etc (beyond sometimes finding it obnoxious, at least). Which is to say, someone born a woman can dress like a man/androgynous, refer to themselves as a man/non-gendered, and in any other way present themselves however they want and reasonable people wouldn’t object to that. I presume that describes you.

      Compelled expression is a much different issue. Constitutionally, it’s pretty clear that compelled expression is a violation of free speech laws, meaning you can’t be compelled to use certain speech. This applies to gender-neutral pronouns in the same way they apply to names: someone can prefer to be called “John” but don’t have any actual right to not be called “Johnny.” Calling a person by the name they prefer is a matter of respect and knowingly calling them by what they prefer not to be called is a matter of disrespect. Similarly with pronouns. So when people say they have a right to be referred to using their preferred pronouns, at best they’re using the word “right” loosely and at worst are equivocating two importantly-distinct ideas.

      The matter is that the gender-neutral pronouns is very new, not widely known about, and there’s yet to be any clear consensus on what to use, which are all significant problems with their adoption. Further complicating that is the value-judgments that come along with them: any resistance to using them is met with arguments and I-have-a-right-to-basic-dignity style moralizing, which is, of course, incredibly frustrating. The request to use weird-sounding words to describe people in interactions represents a significant obligation on the speaker since we’re all responsible for what we say and a request to use unfamiliar words is implicitly asking the speaker to explain those words to people who question them, which in turn is a request to explain something that the speaker could easily be uncomfortable with explaining. It’s a direct conflict between a person’s desire to be nice and a person’s desire to avoid putting themselves in positions they don’t want to be, which is why I suspect “they” or just avoiding pronouns altogether is the way people often get around the issue.

      Which is all to say, I think it’s entirely understandable when people don’t want to use strange words and all the implications that come with it. Adoption of these things will take time and trying to speed the process up by shaming people is a seriously bad way of doing it.

      1. Observer*

        It’s actually not completely true that *all* compelled / forbidden speech is forbidden by the constitution. For one thing there is the clear reality that the constitution does not deal at all with speech in the private sector. So, a company, for instance can require / forbid all sorts of speech. In fact, outside of some fairly narrow exceptions, they have a free hand.

        Beyond that, the government absolutely can, and does, ban / compel certain speech, directly and indirectly. Directly, it can compel / ban speech on a variety of grounds, although it doesn’t have a free hand. So, for instance, the constitution allows bans on speech that are the equivalent of “shouting fire in a crowded theater”. Indirectly, it does so by directing companies to do so in certain cases such as when it forbids speech that is harassing based on certain protected characteristics. Which speaks to this situation. Gender / Sex is a protected category, and most courts have ruled that this includes conformance to gender norms. And some jurisdictions have ruled that deliberate misgendering is gender based harassment.

        TLDR: The “right” to be referred to may actually be somewhat legal, not just moral.

        1. DArcy*

          That’s a very good point, although Jaguar’s entire argument is a bit off topic since it’s aimed at nonbinary people asking for correct pronoun use for ourselves, as opposed to the situation of OP #3 who is demanding that management and/or HR step in and back them up in forcing everyone to use nonbinary pronouns regardless of their gender identity.

  131. Gene*

    Put me in the doesn’t care about “jeans day”; I’ve always found them uncomfortable. In my job, since I have to sometimes work in the right of way and thus have to wear long pants; I have the choice of being reimbursed for blue jeans or wearing poly/cotton rental uniform pants. I am the only one in my office who opts for the rental pants.

    Once I get the expected promotion to management, then we see if I can get away with wearing kilt, which I find most comfortable. I’m actually looking forward to this; my view is if women can wear skirts in the office, I can wear kilts (women who work in the right of way also have to wear long pants.)

    1. Nic*

      My experience was in a tech company, so YMMV, but there were two or three people who would wear a kilt from time to time. There were a few “well, that’s an odd person” comments, but mostly people were accepting and even complimentary.

  132. Forgot my name!*

    Honest question here…. I’m trying to figure out a conversation where I would be using pronouns at the person I’m speaking to. If we are speaking together or in a group, I use the people’s names. Of course I would use anyone’s preferred pronouns if I were talking ABOUT you to someone else, but only if you weren’t there, and still, mostly likely just use your name. I guess I don’t use pronouns very often? More in writing that talking? But see here, I didn’t use them once in my question and it wasn’t on purpose.

    PS. OP3 is abominably, ridiculously, over-the-top rude for forcing their preferences on a coworker. I would not want to work with you.

    1. DArcy*

      OP 3 went considerably beyond mere rudeness when they crossed the line from merely aggressively misgendering their coworker to having reported her to the team lead because “her gender identity makes me uncomfortable”. And now trying to ask for advice on how to go over her team leader’s head to management!

  133. LittleBlueDragon*

    As a Brit, bloody hell doesn’t even register as bad to me, it’s more of a surprised exclamation, or exasperation. As in, “bloody hell, you startled me” or “bloody hell, not this again”. Now days it just makes be think of Ron from Harry Potter. But when I was younger (before I learnt other words) it was worse and quite exciting to say.

  134. pray*

    I’m unhappy with the post about gender neutral pronouns. If someone has specifically asked you to call them by a specific pronoun and you don’t, you are doing the exact same thing someone does when they refer to a transgendered person as their “biological” gender. Not okay.

    These are the kind of people that have turn political correctness into an ugly thing. So now when people actually need to respect others, it doesn’t happen.

  135. Kate the Little Teapot*

    I am American but work is based in the UK. I do use “bloody” as an intensifier at work to express emotion because most people do – sometimes “bloody hell,” sometimes “bloody fantastic.”

    Having said that, I wouldn’t say it with anyone who didn’t like swearing or with anyone who I didn’t yet have a friendship that involved swearing with – it’s definitely a swear word.

    As swears go it’s mild, but it is not on the level of “gosh darn” “fudge” or other phrases that Americans use to substitute for swearing.

  136. Annoyed*

    #3 She is not NB or GF (etc). She is female. She has said she prefers female pronouns.

    Using NB or GF (etc.) pronouns for her absolutely *is* misgendering because…that’s *not her gender.*

    Where do you get off thinking you are the (other people’) pronoun police?

    You are wrong and being hostile. HR? Really? HR can no more demand she use ‘X’ pronouns than they can demand you use them.

    She’s not being female *at* you. She was just born that way.

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